[Article] Unlocking Legacy - A Modern Goblins Primer, Part II

[Zach Tartell]

Link (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14109.html)


When we left off last time, I had constructed a proper maindeck for Vial Goblins, and I was discussing some general strategic concerns the deck has to consider. I will continue and discuss how to build a good sideboard, and how to use it.

[Awesomator]

A) Tranquil Domain doesn't destroy equipment
B) Tin Street does
C) On the play against Zoo I board in Chalice
D) Vs Combo Ringleader is crap to keep in, I would keep in 1 at most.
E) Affinity is in your favor if you are running the green build.
F) You board a lot more than just Pyrokinesis and enchantment removal against Deadguy.
G) I Bring in Pyrostatic Pillar vs White Thresh, but not Red.
H) Vs Most straight control variants you run Pillar and sometimes Grip.
I) Overall Chalice is better than Crypt for way too many reasons, if you have to ask why, read the two cards.

Overall the article was pretty good. Seemed like the writer did his homework, but hasn't really done extensive testing. Replace Crypt with Chalice and we have the same sideboard.

[Zilla]

Nice followup article, Chris. So is the next section going to address alterations to the deck to deal with the Hulk Flash matchup? If you run 4 each of Leyline of the Void, Duress, Cabal Therapy, and Extirpate in the maindeck, you can probably go about 50/50 with them. :laugh:

Ugh. Sorry to rub salt in the wound. If it's any consolation, I doubt Flash will survive past June 1.

[Machinus]

Nice followup article, Chris. So is the next section going to address alterations to the deck to deal with the Hulk Flash matchup? If you run 4 each of Leyline of the Void, Duress, Cabal Therapy, and Extirpate in the maindeck, you can probably go about 50/50 with them. :laugh:

Ugh. Sorry to rub salt in the wound. If it's any consolation, I doubt Flash will survive past June 1.

Anwar already let me know just how useful this article was. See quote below.

[Awesomator]

LOL that's hilarious. I think it's most for the Legacy challenged 1.x, type 2, and type 1 players.

[Shriekmaw]

D) Vs Combo Ringleader is crap to keep in, I would keep in 1 at most.
E) Affinity is in your favor if you are running the green build.



It would depend on the combo deck that your playing against to determine of I could remove ringleader from play. I usually leave them in against solidarity as I end up cutting other cards in the deck to support the chalices and pillars I bring in.

I will never agree that even with the green splash you are favored against Affinity. It's just not so.

[Awesomator]

Ringeader is the worst card vs combo, period. Leaving your ringleaders in against solidarity tells me that you have no idea what you're talking about. Incinerators and ringleaders = worst cards vs combo by far. Exactly what do you board out vs combo? We already had this argument with Goblins and Affinity, and I was, and still am willing to battle it out on MWS to prove it to you and we can still post the results in the Goblins forum, unless you feel that you are going to be proven wrong.

[Shriekmaw]

Incinerators and ringleaders = worst cards vs combo by far.


First of all, I board out my 3 md pyrokinesis, then sharpshooter (depending on the combo deck), followed by incinerators. I would not board out ringleader, although it is a 4 drop, it has haste which can end games a lot quicker versus combo then some of your other goblins that you have.

Ringleader is not the worse card against combo.

[blackguard90]

holy balls Nikrit, is that picture in your profile really you? You look like soem 14 year old instead of a 26 year old.

Anyways, why didn't this goblin primer talk about the possibility of running into Hulk Flash? The only thing that remotely hurts flash is chalice, which most gobbo decks are already running in the SB. Pillars and crypt does nothing against hulk.

If flash is going to be as dominant as everyone is saying, and if it is true that star city games sold 400+ copies of flash in 24 hours, then the main problem for gobbos at the GP is going to be beating flash hulk.

Maybe a BR goblin deck packing ton-o-hate can do the job handily. Basically run 4 leylines and some cabal therapies.

[Awesomator]

I doubt that Flash will be a huge percentage of the field. The hulk strategy is being discussed in the DTB Goblin fourm. Post GP is when it will become a huge factor. Flash will definitely be played at the GP, but it won't be a ridiculous portion of the field. Chalice does next to nothing against Flash pre FS, post FS it is a great card.

[Meeee]

My roomate Jeff(Gekoratel) runs 3 MD pyrokinesis and has done consistently well with them. Winning the first Mana Leak Open, missing Top 8 day 1 of the second Mana Leak Open on tiebreaks, and making it day 2. Until recently Combo has been a fairly small part of the field and creature based strategies like Goblins where Pyrokinesis is amazing have been much more played.


I will never agree that even with the green splash you are favored against Affinity. It's just not so.

I have played affinity a decent amount recently and goblins is my favorite match to see. I'm about 65% against Jeff(playing rg Goblins) and bad Goblins players are so much easier to beat

[Awesomator]

If Gekoratel is the player I'm thinking of, then Jeff and I played against each other at the TMLO2 day 2. We had quite a battle, he is a talented player, where NickRit is garbage. It is NO LONGER correct to play 3 MD pyrokinesis, where players used to. Jeff played I believe 1 Pyrokinesis MD at TMLO2, and was running the version with white. We both Top 8'd at TMLO2 and my tournamnet report is in the old DTB Goblin Forum.

As for your Affinity percentages.. good Goblin players without a lot of Affinity experience can easily misplay. I have tested this matchup a lot and have been a solid favorite (running 4 grip in board, 3 kinesis, 4x MD Incinerator, and 2 MD Tin Street).

[Meeee]

I believe Jeff is currently running 3 MD Kinesis 3-4 MD incinerator(not sure which) 3 (1MD/2SB) Tin Street, 3 SB Krosan Grip. Testing has been favorable for me,but you have access to alot of artifact destruction postboard do you typically attack the manabase or save it for plates, ravagers etc..? Attacking the manabase never seemed to work for Jeff but part of that might have been just me getting mana flooded at the right time. If it does work it definitly can be trouble for me, although I do save chromatic stars and Furnaces in my hand for when I need red(I run 4 SB Pyroclasm instead of plague which is slower and less effective in my opinion a good Goblins player knows how to play through it).

[Awesomator]

I believe Jeff is currently running 3 MD Kinesis 3-4 MD incinerator(not sure which) 3 (1MD/2SB) Tin Street, 3 SB Krosan Grip. Testing has been favorable for me,but you have access to alot of artifact destruction postboard do you typically attack the manabase or save it for plates, ravagers etc..? Attacking the manabase never seemed to work for Jeff but part of that might have been just me getting mana flooded at the right time. If it does work it definitly can be trouble for me, although I do save chromatic stars and Furnaces in my hand for when I need red(I run 4 SB Pyroclasm instead of plague which is slower and less effective in my opinion a good Goblins player knows how to play through it).

It really depends on my hand, I sometimes attack the mana base though. Grip is extremely powerful, and I usually hope to get a ravager with it. I also only very occassionally attack the plating, which is when I can't deal with multiple fliers. My deck turns much more control to get rid of big threats. In the Matchup, matron is extremely powerful at getting me into the mid game, being able to search for tin streets or occasionally gempalm. I usually always hold back on Kinesis until I can get a really game shifting one, or if I'm about to take a ton of damage. I also use responses to modular like crazy to keep Affinity's creatures from getting too monstrous. The times I lose to affinity are when it comes out of the games and I don't have any or enough control to slow it down. Atog and fling are ok with me usually since I end up destroying so many artifacts in the game, but occassionally it kills. My goal is to get it to late game, and more often than not, it's successful.

Dude. Learn when to quit. Infraction and warning issued. (Three infractions = ban. Let's not go there.)---frogboy

[frogboy]

Keep flame wars to PMs if you can't be civil. Also, using "gay" etc in a derogatory fashion is absolutely not okay.

[hi-val]

The reason that this article doesn't mention Flash is probably that Flash only got big like two or three days ago. Would you want Chris putting out bad information on playing against Flash, because he only has six hours to test it and write about it? This article was, IIRC, already written and in the bank awhile ago.

[Machinus]

The reason that this article doesn't mention Flash is probably that Flash only got big like two or three days ago. Would you want Chris putting out bad information on playing against Flash, because he only has six hours to test it and write about it? This article was, IIRC, already written and in the bank awhile ago.

Basically : (

I also wouldn't even know where to begin. If I tried to write about Flash it might just end up being a tirade regarding the DCI's consistent neglect of this format.

How can you write an article about an entirely new format in one week? It's not even possible.

[Citrus-God]

As for your Affinity percentages.. good Goblin players without a lot of Affinity experience can easily misplay. I have tested this matchup a lot and have been a solid favorite (running 4 grip in board, 3 kinesis, 4x MD Incinerator, and 2 MD Tin Street).

I always thought of the match-ups as 50/50 between Goblins and Affinity. I mean it's hard for Goblins to squeeze in damage as the game progresses, whereas Affinity is best early game with so many broken starts.


My roomate Jeff(Gekoratel) runs 3 MD pyrokinesis and has done consistently well with them. Winning the first Mana Leak Open, missing Top 8 day 1 of the second Mana Leak Open on tiebreaks, and making it day 2. Until recently Combo has been a fairly small part of the field and creature based strategies like Goblins where Pyrokinesis is amazing have been much more played.

Your Mike Heatherington? I never knew you played Legacy. Also, I loved you strings of T1 finishes if you are Mike Heatherington.

[Nihil Credo]

I always thought of the match-ups as 50/50 between Goblins and Affinity. I mean it's hard for Goblins to squeeze in damage as the game progresses, whereas Affinity is best early game with so many broken starts.
Uh... exactly what it is that you are saying here? As it stands, you wrote that both decks are the beatdown in the matchup :confused:

[Citrus-God]

Uh... exactly what it is that you are saying here? As it stands, you wrote that both decks are the beatdown in the matchup :confused:

Kinda....

It goes like this: Who the hell is the Beatdown in the Ophidian mirror? Roles go back and forth really. Goblins tends to be control for a while, and Affinity has to be control for awhile.

[Meeee]

I always thought of the match-ups as 50/50 between Goblins and Affinity. I mean it's hard for Goblins to squeeze in damage as the game progresses, whereas Affinity is best early game with so many broken starts.



Your Mike Heatherington? I never knew you played Legacy. Also, I loved you strings of T1 finishes if you are Mike Heatherington.

Yea I'm Mike Hetherington I play legacy when my roommates trick me into it. Not really my favorite format but I figured if I'm going to go to the Grand Prix I might as well get a good understanding of what’s good etc... I just wish gifts was broken in Legacy:frown:. I’m playing Affinity mostly because I'm extremely comfortable with the deck and it has the capability to outrace or out power anything, if there's not much hate involved. With Hulk Flash emerging I'm pretty sure Affinity will be mostly ignored and although the match isn't great I'm pretty sure I can beat bad Flash players or race good ones with a slow start (I don't really think it's going to be a big factor at the GP although I'm sure it will show up).

As for the Affinity vs Goblins match it's probably close to 50/50 although I tend to do well against Jeff:smile:. Affinity will attempt to race Goblins in the early game getting as much damage in as possible, around turn 4 Goblins usually starts to stall the board then Affinity gets evasion beats in until it hopefully draws Berserk or Fling with atog to finish the game.

[Citrus-God]

Yea I'm Mike Hetherington I play legacy when my roommates trick me into it. Not really my favorite format but I figured if I'm going to go to the Grand Prix I might as well get a good understanding of what’s good etc... I just wish gifts was broken in Legacy:frown:. I’m playing Affinity mostly because I'm extremely comfortable with the deck and it has the capability to outrace or out power anything, if there's not much hate involved. With Hulk Flash emerging I'm pretty sure Affinity will be mostly ignored and although the match isn't great I'm pretty sure I can beat bad Flash players or race good ones with a slow start (I don't really think it's going to be a big factor at the GP although I'm sure it will show up).

Spring Tide has Merchant Scroll.... that's close to Gifts, right? umm...


As for the Affinity vs Goblins match it's probably close to 50/50 although I tend to do well against Jeff:smile:. Affinity will attempt to race Goblins in the early game getting as much damage in as possible, around turn 4 Goblins usually starts to stall the board then Affinity gets evasion beats in until it hopefully draws Berserk or Fling with atog to finish the game.

I always believed it's around 50/50. It's Threshold MU is probably better than Goblin's Threshold MU.

Anyways, which Affinity build do you run?