A Special Message from the DCI... [Archive]

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-04-2007, 04:50 PM

I think, to be fair, we're expecting a lot from the DCI to have gold-lettered notes of apology and assurance of a pre-emptive banning less than a week after this shit-storm started. While my level of respect for the DCI will have dropped drastically if this combo isn't broken up by next week, I think we should give it a little time. It's unfair to say that they don't care about Legacy at all, or they wouldn't bother with the GPs; Wizards isn't dumb. They know that as the game ages, and the average player's age rises, they need alternative formats to support them- Legacy is perfect for this because you don't have to buy cards nearly as quickly or pay as close attention to the metagame, because compared to Standard and Extended the metagame moves in slow-time. A deck can take a year to move from obscurity to dominance, and you don't have a frantic pace at which you have to collect new cards in order to maintain viability. While this isn't as profitable for Wizards as Type 2, it does create an environment for players that want to continue in the game, but don't want to have to continually deal with the frantic scrabble of the newer formats, and want to retain a use for their older cards. In other words, Legacy is (or can and will serve the function of, if allowed) a collecting pool for players that aren't kitchen-table casual, but no longer have the time or interest in being involved in the game 24/7. Wizards might not make as much money off of them, per head, as newer players in newer formats, but it beats them simply quitting the game for being too high maintenance.

Of course, here it's in conflict with Vintage, but unlike Vintage, Legacy doesn't exclusively belong to people who are in their mid-to-late twenties and thirties and have jobs that can afford them the luxury of buying Power and 5,000$ decks. Not to mention, can be sanctioned, and, you know, uses the combat phase (or does normally).

frogboy

05-04-2007, 04:58 PM

Anyone want to lay some money down on the DCI issuing emergency banning or errata to nuke Flash combo? I'm taking the "no" side.

Machinus

05-04-2007, 05:11 PM

I think, to be fair, we're expecting a lot from the DCI to have gold-lettered notes of apology and assurance of a pre-emptive banning less than a week after this shit-storm started.

Jack -

We had no warning about this, no explanation for it, and no statement about it's legitimacy. Regardless of how much this is going to fuck up the format, I think this is blatant disregard for the format and its players.

Ta Jugs

05-04-2007, 05:13 PM

I think you guys are overreacting a little too much.

frogboy

05-04-2007, 05:17 PM

Jack -

We had no warning about this, no explanation for it, and no statement about it's legitimacy. Regardless of how much this is going to fuck up the format, I think this is blatant disregard for the format and its players.

Right, undoing power errata came completely out of the blue a month ago. This is all a conspiracy to punish Legacy players and make Columbus attendance drop so that Wizards can stop supporting the format.

seriously wtf.

Slay

05-04-2007, 05:19 PM

I think you guys are overreacting a little too much.

What - as opposed to overreacting exactly the right amount?
-Slay

Machinus

05-04-2007, 05:24 PM

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-04-2007, 05:36 PM

Jack -

We had no warning about this, no explanation for it, and no statement about it's legitimacy. Regardless of how much this is going to fuck up the format, I think this is blatant disregard for the format and its players.

Did you think that it was blatant disregard for the format when they un-errated Karmic Guide, Time Vault, Cloud of Faeries and Palinchron? They've said that they're planning on removing all power-level errata for a while now. That they're continuing this as they find older cards they errated makes perfect sense. That they didn't fully think out what it might do in Legacy also makes perfect sense.

Machinus

05-04-2007, 05:43 PM

Did you think that it was blatant disregard for the format when they un-errated Karmic Guide, Time Vault, Cloud of Faeries and Palinchron? They've said that they're planning on removing all power-level errata for a while now. That they're continuing this as they find older cards they errated makes perfect sense. That they didn't fully think out what it might do in Legacy also makes perfect sense.

The changes to time vault were nonsense and I don't think that's a good example of this process.

But in those other cases, no, not at all. Cloud of Faeries is a 1/1 flyer. Flash is a turn 0 combo deck. They can't even answer an email? Yes, it's negligence.

frogboy

05-04-2007, 06:00 PM

So, what, you're just saying they're incompetent?

Cait_Sith

05-04-2007, 06:07 PM

Seriously, there are other motivations in human beings besides malice.

Really? I've been missing out.

Atwa

05-04-2007, 06:20 PM

They can't even answer an email?

And whose e-mail should they have answered? This hype has only been going on for about a week, and I think there have been over a hundered e-mails send in this last week. It seems a bit demanding to expect Aaron to answer all these mails, while he still has his normal job to do.

I am among the one who'd hoped to see at least a sign in his article today, where he'd mention the problem, but most of the time these articles are submitted some time in advance, especially during the theme weeks. It was known for months Timeshifted Week part 3 would come along, so I expect his article to be submitted maybe a month (or at least a few weeks) ago.

I do hope however, to get some replies in his next article. I don't even want to know at that point what their decision will be regarding the problem (it would be nice however), I just want to hear they understand our concerns, and they are looking in to it. I am curious however, that Flash has been a "Card of the Day" last month (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/cotd/0407) (April 19), where was only stated it was a weak, bad templated card. No mention of a comming un-erata, whatsoever. How longer I think of it, the more it looks Flash was found at the last moment, and was included in a batch of un-erating whitout thinking over the concequenses for the eternal formats what so ever.

Personaly I think the un-erata is fine, I like to play a card 'as written', but they should have done it after the GP, they could have waited for a month. The card is pretty cool, and I think it's a nice card for Vintage, but it should be banned in Legacy. Some people call for the banning of Hulk, but the deck didn't excist before the change, so giving Flash the banhammer seems like the best sollution to me. It has put Hulk on the radar, and I think some cool casual or tire 2 deck can be made with it, but 1 card shouldn't be able to warp a meta like this. I think I'd rather fase Yawgmoth's Will over this monster.

Machinus

05-04-2007, 06:20 PM

So, what, you're just saying they're incompetent?

I'm not sure whether to reference you to my post or a dictionary, so I will do both:

I think this is blatant disregard for the format and its players.

Main Entry: disregard
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: ignoring
Synonyms: apathy, disinterest, inattention, indifference, neglect, oversight, unconcern

Anusien

05-04-2007, 06:21 PM

Chris: Are you upset that they unerrata'ed Flash or that they didn't tell you personally? It doesn't make sense that the unerrata of Karmic Guide and Cloud of Faeries should be treated any different than Flash. Wizards of the Coast is not some monolithic corporate enterprise. The rules team is different from the team that does Bannings and Restrictions; that is the way it should be. The fact that when they errata things, it may take away a combo (Time Vault), do nothing (Cloud of Faeries) or add a combo (Flash) means that they're doing their job without letting outside considerations affect their judgment, and personally I think that's a good thing. Maybe Flash is banworthy; it doesn't matter. Errata and Oracle card text should not be used for banning; that's the whole reason they're removing power level errata.

At least this proves that they didn't errata Time Vault to nuke the combo.

Edit: in other words, yes, the errata is blatant disregard for the players. And it should be! The rules team should not be thinking of the influence on other formats when they fix bad wordings. Power level shouldn't get in the way of the rules.

Goblin Snowman

05-04-2007, 06:22 PM

As irritating as this all is, they probably didn't test every single way each card could be abused. I'm horribly pissed off that they didn't wait until after the GP to start "fixing" cards, but they didn't plan on destroying the format. Hopefully they'll grow a brain stem before Columbus, but as they likely don't care enough to test this or don't believe testing, until June 1st we have to expect this to stay

Machinus

05-04-2007, 06:25 PM

Chris: Are you upset that they unerrata'ed Flash or that they didn't tell you personally?

Yes, I expect the DCI to call me up and talk to me about their B/R decisions.

At least this proves that they didn't errata Time Vault to nuke the combo.

I think you know how riduculous that is to begin with.

Make a serious attempt and I'll do the same.

Machinus

05-04-2007, 06:34 PM

Edit: in other words, yes, the errata is blatant disregard for the players. And it should be! The rules team should not be thinking of the influence on other formats when they fix bad wordings. Power level shouldn't get in the way of the rules.

You have no conception of power level or brokenness. Their stated goals are to maintain balance and order in magic formats, not make them degenerate and pointless. A fucking box of dice could come up with a better B/R list than the one we have now.

etrigan

05-04-2007, 06:38 PM

Edit: in other words, yes, the errata is blatant disregard for the players. And it should be! The rules team should not be thinking of the influence on other formats when they fix bad wordings. Power level shouldn't get in the way of the rules.

Nothing wrong with fixing bad wordings. The problem comes when they fix bad wordings, thereby giving life to new cards, and making the changes effective immediately.

Sometimes, even most of the time, the changes will have no effect. However, as will occasionally happen, and is happening, a change will make things completely broken. But everytime they do something, there's a possibility, no different than when they print new cards.

And new cards aren't legal immediately.

Nor should this.

Atwa

05-04-2007, 06:39 PM

Edit: in other words, yes, the errata is blatant disregard for the players. And it should be! The rules team should not be thinking of the influence on other formats when they fix bad wordings. Power level shouldn't get in the way of the rules.

True, but why did they have to do this is at this time? The only formats in which Flash is legal, are Legacy and Vintage. Since in these formats changes are slower than in the other formats, they could have simply waited until after the GP. I am not ever going to attend to the GP (too much water in the way), but even I am pissed at the timing at which they are changing some rulings.

Would it be too much of an effort to wait until the release of 10th or Lorwyn? At wizards they always brag about the fact they have these large archieves. Couldn't they just save up all the cards which need to be un-errateded and change them all at once? Now we have to fear for cards changing every time there will be a prerelease. Normally at the release of a new (insert random number)th edition, some rules change (as does the wording of some cards), wouldn't that be the perfect time to change all the old powerlevel erratas at the same time?

I am a firm believer Flash needed to be 'repaired', even if it would likely mean a banning from Legacy. However doing it 4 weeks before the only tournament which Wizards support this year (or maybe forever, since they've never stated they would continue to support our format) really prove the lack of some good manners toward a crowd which has bought their preduct for over years.

Anusien

05-04-2007, 06:44 PM

The point is that the rules team is not obligated to look at power level in any way. The card should always have worked that way, so it's best to change it as soon as possible. If they don't change it now, it'll be something else.

Sometimes, even most of the time, the changes will have no effect. However, as will occasionally happen, and is happening, a change will make things completely broken. But everytime they do something, there's a possibility, no different than when they print new cards.
The rules team shouldn't have to look at that. It's not different than changing the old Rebels so that they can search Rebel permanents. It just happens to give life to a new combo deck. What if you had built a Darkpact deck based on the flawed wording (it worked completely wrong for a time) and they changed it. Is that disregard? Yes. But the point is that Oracle does not regulate power level. BR regulates power level. In other words:

You have no conception of power level or brokenness. Their stated goals are to maintain balance and order in magic formats, not make them degenerate and pointless. A fucking box of dice could come up with a better B/R list than the one we have now.
The Rules Team that fixes Oracle is not supposed to card about power level or brokenness. Fixing Flash to the way it should work is no different than fixing Cloud of Faeries. The Rules Team shouldn't look at power level, because that comprises the rules of the game for exterior concerns.

Machinus

05-04-2007, 06:48 PM

And whose e-mail should they have answered? This hype has only been going on for about a week, and I think there have been over a hundered e-mails send in this last week. It seems a bit demanding to expect Aaron to answer all these mails, while he still has his normal job to do...No mention of a comming un-erata, whatsoever. How longer I think of it, the more it looks Flash was found at the last moment, and was included in a batch of un-erating whitout thinking over the concequenses for the eternal formats what so ever...I think I'd rather fase Yawgmoth's Will over this monster.

Part of his normal job is precisely to prevent this from happening in the first place!

They should have spoken to a judge, or an event organizer, or someone who would inform the public. There is no precedent for Mark Gottlieb breaking a format.

This is the first time there has been a degenerate deck in this format, and it didn't happen because of innovation or new technology. It happened because the DCI never even looked at these errata. Rector is legal, and that is a very good reason to take a few moments to examine the consequences of this change. They would have figured it out.

This negligience is going to cost the format heavily at the GP.

I can think of two motivations for a player to believe there is something good about this problem:

1) They have never heard of Urza's Saga or the DCI.
2) Their chances of success at a GP with nondegenerate decks are low.

The rules team...The Rules Team...The Rules Team...

I'm not sure why you are talking about the Rules Team. Maybe you are thinking of a different thread. This one is about the DCI, as stated in the title.

frogboy

05-04-2007, 06:50 PM

How, exactly, does it show a blatant disregard for the format?

Nothing wrong with fixing bad wordings. The problem comes when they fix bad wordings, thereby giving life to new cards, and making the changes effective immediately.

They're not. Flash's errata went active when Future Sight was added to Gatherer on the Friday prior to the FS prerelease.

I'm not sure why you are talking about the Rules Team. Maybe you are thinking of a different thread. This one is about the DCI, as stated in the title.

Probably because the Rules Team are the folks responsible for the errata.

They should have spoken to a judge, or an event organizer, or someone who would inform the public. There is no precedent for Mark Gottlieb breaking a format.

Why?

This is the first time there has been a degenerate deck in this format, and it didn't happen because of innovation or new technology.

Given that Protean Hulk didn't exist when Flash was printed I'm pretty sure innovation occurred at some point.

I can think of two motivations for a player to believe there is something good about this problem:

1) They have never heard of Urza's Saga or the DCI.
2) Their chances of success at a GP with nondegenerate decks are low.

Not that it's good per se, but my track record at Grand Prix with nondegenerate decks is better than yours, so we can just stop all skill debates at this time.

Machinus

05-04-2007, 06:55 PM

How, exactly, does it show a blatant disregard for the format?

One responsibility the DCI has is to keep pro-level events from relying on broken interactions, degenerate decks, un-fun cards, etc.

Flash has eradicated the buildup of innovation over the past two years, right before a pro-level event.

Over the past year, they have declined to unban several cards that would have had very little effect on the format, for two possible reasons: they wanted to maintain a safe environment for the GP, or they didn't give a shit. In either case, they have acted in clear opposition to their obligations.

If this isn't a textbook case of negligence, then I am not sure what is.

frogboy

05-04-2007, 06:59 PM

The Rules Team is responsible for the errata of cards.

The DCI is responsible for the legality of cards.

Presumably, cards were unbanned because they were deemed to be not format distorting and so on. Given that they havn't taken over the format, I think the DCI probably got that one right.

Atwa

05-04-2007, 07:05 PM

Part of his normal job is precisely to prevent this from happening in the first place!

I have to agree with this. Someone has been sleeping while this happened

This negligience is going to cost the format heavily at the GP.

Again I am going to agree. We (the people who really like legacy and have been trying to promote it, through various ways(for which I want to give you props, again)) have just spend a whole years work for nothing. I think we can learn to live with it however, and I really hope in a couple of years, this will be history, just like black summer and combo winter.

Players (fairly) new to the format however, playing their first (large) legacy tournament at the GP, will be turned away from it, I'm afraid. Remember we have been promising new players a fun format, where lots of decks are playable with their old cards, and a format where the combat step actually mattered. I fear new players will be terribly disapointed and never look to the format again.

I can think of two motivations for a player to believe there is something good about this problem:

1) They have never heard of Urza's Saga or the DCI.
2) Their chances of success at a GP with nondegenerate decks are low.

I hope I didn't imply that I felt like this situation had something even remotely positive. I hope I stated this clearly enough in my second post.

Machinus

05-04-2007, 07:06 PM

Given that they haven't taken over the format, I think the DCI probably got that one right.

I think this perspective shows a serious lack of understanding of the way the Legacy community functions. The combo has been legal for a matter of weeks - even for something as good as this, that's still not long enough for the format to respond appropriately. The relevant tournaments are going to be affected very seriously.

Not that it's good per se, but my track record at Grand Prix with nondegenerate decks is better than yours, so we can just stop all skill debates at this time.

I haven't played in one yet, but you're missing the point (although I'll let you handle the "skill debates," since you are so awesome). It's obvious that degeneracy removes skill from the game, so perhaps you can contribute something and explain why you are defending that position?

Why?

Any serious player would look at this card, realize the implications, and doubt that it worked because it's effect on the format would be so devastating.

noobslayer

05-04-2007, 07:06 PM

I'd put money down that at least one of the pros at this event plays Hulk Flash.

Atwa

05-04-2007, 07:08 PM

I'd put money down that at least one of the pros at this event plays Hulk Flash.

Me too, a lot in fact.

Anusien

05-04-2007, 07:09 PM

The DCI does two things: Release Banned and Restricted lists at appropriate times, and Emergency Ban and Restrict when appropriate. They do nothing else. If you want them to do anything else, you're wrong. If Flash doesn't deserve emergency banning, there is nothing for them to do.

And at this point, only the DCI deals with power level of cards in various formats. R&D occasionally considers it, but they've stated that they'd prefer to make the cards good enough and if they're too good, to ban them. Rules doesn't look into the issue at all.

Machinus

05-04-2007, 07:13 PM

Emergency Ban and Restrict when appropriate.

Since you knew this already, I can only assume you have not tested this deck, and are not aware of what a catastrophe this tournament is going to be.

I also have to assume you are not familiar with the DCI's history of emergency bannings. Go read about them, and consider how much more Flash is going to distort the environment than those cards. If it was only on par, or even somewhat worse, it would still be appropriate.

frogboy

05-04-2007, 07:19 PM

I think this perspective shows a serious lack of understanding of the way the Legacy community functions. The combo has been legal for a matter of weeks - even for something as good as this, that's still not long enough for the format to respond appropriately. The relevant tournaments are going to be affected very seriously.

Context: Cards unbanned by the DCI for being not terribly powerful. They didn't break out at any major tournaments. Flash will. Then the DCI will deal with it. Is there still miscommunication between "The Rules Team handles what cards do" and "The DCI handles what is legal?"

I haven't played in one yet, but you're missing the point (although I'll let you handle the "skill debates," since you are so awesome). It's obvious that degeneracy removes skill from the game, so perhaps you can contribute something and explain why you are defending that position?

It's not obvious. Tinker Extended was one of the most skill intensive formats ever. Granted that Flash isn't terribly interactive, most of the skill comes in tuning the build and finding effective mirror strategies and how to handle disruption.

Any serious player would look at this card, realize the implications, and doubt that it worked because it's effect on the format would be so devastating.

They'd probably just build the best version of Flash and win the tournament with it.

I think Flash is overpowered and should be banned, but I think emergency banning it is unwarranted.

Since you knew this already, I can only assume you have not tested this deck, and are not aware of what a catastrophe this tournament is going to be.

I also have to assume you are not familiar with the DCI's history of emergency bannings. Go read about them, and consider how much more Flash is going to distort the environment than those cards. If it was only on par, or even somewhat worse, it would still be appropriate.

If you compare this situation to the current situation in Extended, you can see that there are two crucial differences: 1) The problem spanned all Constructed formats, 2) There was a huge buildup of angst about the format before the emergency ban candidate was even printed. I do not expect the DCI to issue any emergency bannings in the future unless both of these conditions are true -- there would have to be a preexisting problem (that included both public outcry and previous bannings) and the problem would need to span all formats and audiences.

Emphasis added.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/rb97

And yeah, we've tested it.

Machinus

05-04-2007, 07:19 PM

Then the DCI will deal with it.

I think this would be an acceptable answer, except for two things:

1) They are scared of Mind over Matter.
2) Legacy hasn't had a pro-level event in 18 months.

These circumstances certainly require a different approach.

They'd probably just build the best version of Flash and win the tournament with it.

Suppose you were a pro player and had kept up with Legacy for some time, and then were told, from no official authority, and with no assurance of it's validity, that there was now a turn 0 combo deck with free counter backup in the same format. You would be very skeptical before doing any of that.

I think Flash is overpowered and should be banned, but I think emergency banning it is unwarranted.

Again, I would agree with this under circumstances that exist in other formats, but not Legacy. That link is quite good, I recommend people read what Randy wrote back then.

Anusien

05-04-2007, 07:22 PM

Suppose you were a pro player and had kept up with Legacy for some time, and then were told, from no official authority, and with no assurance of it's validity, that there was now a turn 0 combo deck with free counter backup in the same format. You would be very skeptical before doing any of that.
Wouldn't you just check Gatherer?

Machinus

05-04-2007, 07:25 PM

Yes, Gatherer is a good beginning, but in the case of errata and complex cards, it is not sufficient.

In this case, we were dealing with a card that appeared in gatherer with its original wording, and the old rulings still in the public file, unchanged. That same card also happened to imply ludicrous interactions in a format that is too timid for Land Tax. I think it has crossed all competitive players' minds that this could be an error in the database, at least for a short while.

Zilla

05-04-2007, 08:19 PM

I also have to assume you are not familiar with the DCI's history of emergency bannings.
Apparently you aren't either. The conditions which caused Memory Jar's emergency banning were unique and do not exist in this situation.

This pretty clearly sums up their policy on bans:

I fully expect us to have to ban cards again in the future (read my "Banning: Good or Bad?" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/rb59) article from February for an argument about why this is actually a good thing). However, when a mistake does happen, that doesn't mean an emergency ban is called for -- I actually think it's okay if a Pro Tour is dominated by a ban-worthy card. In fact, our general policy is to use the pros as guinea pigs – we let them try to break a format and then if they succeed we can fix it before the next qualifier season.
The best way to determine if a card is well and truly broken is to have it actually dominate a competitive tournament environment. It's the only way to determine a given card's level of impact on a format.

Is it unfortunate that one of our format's only major tournaments this year will be heavily disrupted by the sudden emergence of this degenerate combo? Certainly, it's very lamentable indeed. But that's the price we have to pay to have the card banned. Pure and simple. They are not going to emergency ban the card before the GP just because of public outcry. They're going to ban it based on proven results at a major tournament. There's really nothing else to be said on the topic.

freakish777

05-04-2007, 08:35 PM

Are you guys seriously missing the hate cards for this combo or what???

Machinus

05-04-2007, 08:45 PM

I have never said that they would ban the card. I think it's a bit dense to suggest that - my whole premise here is that the DCI is overlooking a problem.

I understand the argument given by frogboy and Godzilla which basically reiterates the de facto policy given by Randy in 2003. I agree with it under circumstances that existed until that was written, and even until a few months ago. However, Magic is different now, and I believe this situation deserves a modification to policy and an exception.

WotC/DCI now employ many qualified tournament players, and they are much better at understanding how to ensure format stability. I'm sure WotC agrees that it would have been better for Extended had PT Tinker been prevented.

My point is that I think this is the one time that an exception deserves to be made, but there was absolutely no oversight of the upcoming tournament, and this is a bad thing for all parties involved, including WotC. This particular case is the extreme of what they would have to consider, and I do believe it would have been correct to prevent GP Flash, regardless of the outdated public statements made by Randy regarding DCI policy.

Barook

05-04-2007, 09:41 PM

Right, undoing power errata came completely out of the blue a month ago. This is all a conspiracy to punish Legacy players and make Columbus attendance drop so that Wizards can stop supporting the format.

seriously wtf.

Is that so? :confused: (irony much - bla bla bla)

Point is that Wizards did this kind of restoring errata months after the original series of reerratas. You can't accuse Wizards for doing that because they don't check over 12k cards every time they update such stuff.

The problem, however, is that they have printed extremely powerful "leave play - trigger" creatures in recent time and they DO KNOW about their power level (e.g. Kamigawa Dragons are considered slightly above the curve in terms of power, at least in the formats the DCI/R&D cares about). And it takes like 2 seconds for a spike to figure out its potential with such rather expensive creatures to abuse Flash.

The worst thing is that all this happens so short before GP Columbus, just to let almost an entire year of format development bite the dust.

cdr

05-04-2007, 10:06 PM

They did have to be aware of the potential of Flash - the reason it was errataed way back in the first place was to put an end to Flash/Rector silliness.

I'll certainly be interested to hear the reasoning behind the timing of the new text, if the timing was even considered.

For a gas, here's the 5E-era rulings for Flash:

Flash
The casting cost you pay includes colored mana. It effectively means that you cast the other spell as normal but pay 2 less generic mana in doing so. [Aahz 09/20/96]
You choose the creature, put it into play, pay, then bury if you didn't pay, in that order, all during the resolution. [Aahz 10/30/96]
You pay the cost after the creature enters play. Thus, if there is an X in the cost, X is zero. And X when the creature is being put into play is zero. [Aahz 11/15/96] Similarly, if a Clone is cast, you pay the casting cost of the new form it takes on and not the Clone card's cost. [Aahz 11/15/96]
You can use mana source speed abilities of the card being put into play to pay for its own casting cost. The extra payment is not considered a pre-condition cost for use of the card. [Duelist Magazine #17, Page 25]

hi-val

05-05-2007, 10:49 AM

Zach Tartell

05-05-2007, 11:27 AM

Brassman won a vintage event with Flash/rector/bargin/win.

Just putting it out there.

Bardu

05-05-2007, 02:38 PM

This combo has existed and been legal for quite awhile.

This combo has existed for 2 weeks. Wizards created this deck by voluntarily errating Flash. That's what makes this different.

Belgareth

05-05-2007, 04:05 PM

I agree with the DCI; let the pros make and break Flash if it's possible, and then deal with the problem when they can.

This combo has existed and been legal for quite awhile.

No offense but the pro's have nothing to do with this.
An 8 yr old with a good grasp of timing rules could do just as well as a pro with this deck, there is no hard decisions just play flash and win.

The combo has been legal since just before FS prerelease (that is not a while).

I'm afraid your very wrong on this as it will be T2 affinity all over.
I don't rate the pro's very highly in the first place but this deck takes no skill whatsoever and as such ruins the format.

Machinus

05-05-2007, 04:09 PM

No offense but the pro's have nothing to do with this.
An 8 yr old with a good grasp of timing rules could do just as well as a pro with this deck, there is no hard decisions just play flash and win.

The combo has been legal since just before FS prerelease (that is not a while).

I'm afraid your very wrong on this as it will be T2 affinity all over.
I don't rate the pro's very highly in the first place but this deck takes no skill whatsoever and as such ruins the format.

What he said.

frogboy

05-05-2007, 05:31 PM

No offense but the pro's have nothing to do with this.
An 8 yr old with a good grasp of timing rules could do just as well as a pro with this deck, there is no hard decisions just play flash and win.

How about this: For every child under the age of fourteen who makes day two of the GP with Hulk Flash, I pay you $50. For every person with level two PT status or fifty lifetime points who makes day two with Hulk Flash, you pay me $10.

Takers?

Machinus

05-05-2007, 05:34 PM

Takers?

Are you just going to sidestep all the important questions with stupid bets?

If you think it takes some skill to break Flash besides typing gatherer.wizards.com into your web browser, then I am waiting to hear about it.

frogboy

05-05-2007, 05:37 PM

So that's a no? Perhaps because some people will tune and, yes, pilot their decks better than others?

Machinus

05-05-2007, 05:50 PM

You're saying power level doesn't matter because some people practice more. That's wrong and completely ignores the entire history of DCI action.

frogboy

05-05-2007, 05:55 PM

I'm saying that it's not nearly as much of a crapshoot as everyone seems to think it is. That's not nearly the same thing.

Please clarify the nature of your complaint. Is it that the DCI is not emergency banning Flash, that the Rules Team should have waited until after Columbus to change the errata, or something else?

Machinus

05-05-2007, 06:07 PM

I don't know how you can downplay the silliness of the deck that just nuked the entire format. This deck is retarded, it has destroyed the existing metagame, and it is going to significantly alter the image and popularity of Legacy after the event. It is as much of a "crapshoot" as any tournament has been. This is going to be on par with PT Rome.

It doesn't matter if pros end up doing better because they have practiced the fucking mirror more, because their advantage is being significantly removed. Skill is being reduced drastically due to the stupid interaction, and what ends up happening is that it plays a minimal role in success. The player composition of day two has absolutely no bearing on whether or not action should have been taken. June 1st is already set in stone.

They are both at fault for this event, but since it is only the DCI's stated responsibility to maintain balance, I think they are responsible. It could be an organizational deficiency, but again this is something the DCI has had control over in the past, through pre-emptive bannings and emergency bannings. (I have plenty of issues with Gottlieb & co. but their boldness with the new rules system has been public for a long time now).

SpatulaOfTheAges

05-05-2007, 06:08 PM

To think that people want Flash banned before it's seen its day in the sun makes me think of Old Extended. Specifically, Trix and Gro dominated entire seasons, and people want to kill Flash before it even gets played. I agree with the DCI; let the pros make and break Flash if it's possible, and then deal with the problem when they can.

This combo has existed and been legal for quite awhile.

I forgot about all those turn 0 wins with Trix/Gro.

Mein bad.

Can people stop pretending this isn't a unique sitation?

That's a great attitude by the way. Let's ignore everybody who's not a pro, no matter how unanimous complaints are, or how much testing verifies those complaints.

I'll never understand people who have a vested interest in not improving things.

frogboy

05-05-2007, 06:23 PM

They are both at fault for this event, but since it is only the DCI's stated responsibility to maintain balance, I think they are responsible. It could be an organizational deficiency, but again this is something the DCI has had control over in the past, through pre-emptive bannings and emergency bannings.

Did you like not read the part where myself, Anusien, and GodzillA pointed out to you that 1) the DCI had nothing to do with the errata and 2) the DCI's policy on emergency bans is to not do them?

Like, sure, being upset and frustrated is standard but calling for emergency bannings is way overreacting.

Incidentally, three aggro decks made top eight at Rome, and there was another black Necro deck. Two Academy combo decks, two High Tide combo decks.

Machinus

05-05-2007, 06:27 PM

Did you like not read the part where myself, Anusien, and GodzillA pointed out to you that 1) the DCI had nothing to do with the errata and 2) the DCI's policy on emergency bans is to not do them?

Did I say that the DCI had something to do with the errata?

Did you like not read my response where I said this is an extreme circumstance that calls for an exception?

Incidentally, three aggro decks made top eight at Rome, and there was another black Necro deck. Two Academy combo decks, two High Tide combo decks.

Pick your tournament/broken card of choice. Necro, Academy, Skullclamp, whatever.

frogboy

05-05-2007, 06:34 PM

Did I say that the DCI had something to do with the errata?

It was rather implied, but I suppose that was clarified when you suggested emergency banning Flash instead.

Did you like not read my response where I said this is an extreme circumstance that calls for an exception?

The one that contravened their stated policy? Yes.

Machinus

05-05-2007, 06:52 PM

The one that contravened their stated policy? Yes.

You're making a religious law out of an informal, unofficial, short description of de facto policy made by Randy Buehler, four years ago. That piece of information is relevant to this discussion, but you are taking their previous statements way more seriously than even they do themselves. Your legalistic approach to this incident is not realistic.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-05-2007, 06:53 PM

Defending a policy that is clearly wrong simply because it is the current policy is irresponsible. Since when did you believe the sun shined out of the DCI's ass? There is nothing- I repeat, nothing- to be gained for the format by not taking action in this case. It will only cause damage. An emergency banning might cost some people a week of testing that they've wasted panicing about Hulk-Flash and the $50 a playset of Flash costs according to SCG now, but it'll save the tournament itself from being a quagmire of first turn wins and shitty hate decks.

The Pros do have a major advantage at the GP, by the way: They all get 3 round byes, so they can just build hate.dec and not have to worry about running into Goblins.

frogboy

05-05-2007, 06:54 PM

Machinus

05-05-2007, 06:57 PM

nod. It seems we're basically at an ideological impasse. Agree to disagree?

I agree that the conclusions being drawn here stem from different opinions on how decisions are made by these bodies. I also think the legalistic opinion doesn't match up with the historic facts.

I have already noted that the most common approach to these issues is to treat WotC like the Church of Magic. I don't think this is representative of how things actually work there. From my experience playing magic, observing the behaviour and practices of these organizations, and the statements made by their employees regarding policy and decision-making, I believe that although the DCI only had minimal warning about this issue, the degeneracy was so obvious that it would have been acceptable to violate the standing public interpretation of their policy (like they have done countless times without regard for their integrity) in order to save this rare event from being ruined.

Machinus

05-05-2007, 07:11 PM

edit: sigh okay I promise I just want to make this one point because I think it's really relevant and hasn't been brought up yet: emergency bannings set a dangerous precedent where people are never sure what the format is going to be at any given tournament. Where to draw the line becomes a very fuzzy issue.

Absolutely. This concern is also one reason why they should have made an announcement - people rightly doubted that Oracle was providing the correct text on this card, for obvious reasons.

In modern times, emergency bannings just shouldn't happen under normal circumstances, because both R&D and the DCI are better at maintaining balance in constructed formats. This is quite an exceptional circumstance.

The rules team has just recently begun circumventing these review processes, and I think after all the time spent talking about Time Vault, the DCI is absolutely responsible for making sure these changes are safe.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-05-2007, 07:13 PM

nod. It seems we're basically at an ideological impasse. Agree to disagree?

edit: sigh okay I promise I just want to make this one point because I think it's really relevant and hasn't been brought up yet: emergency bannings set a dangerous precedent where people are never sure what the format is going to be at any given tournament. Where to draw the line becomes a very fuzzy issue.

This argument is absolutely retarded. That's like saying CPR sets a dangerous precedent because you're never sure when some stranger is going to suddenly start thumping your chest and making out with you. I would say that the DCI stepping in to prevent a fun event from turning into a degenerate shit-fest sets a very, very good precedent.

I also note that the phrase, "Agree to disagree?" is most often used by the side which first runs out of actual relevant data and arguments, but still doesn't want to admit that it's wrong.

kirdape3

05-05-2007, 07:33 PM

Without tournament data, the DCI is liable to do very little.

There actually is no 'proof' of much of any dislocation whatsoever in the format - that is, hard tournament data. The previous experience with emergency bannings is actually uneven with regards to tournament data - Jar was legal for a couple of weeks whereas Mind's Desire was not (in Vintage, and you can still play one, and it's still retarded).

Does Flash have such hard tournament data that supports such a ban? That's the only criterion that's liable to actually get the DCI's attention.

Machinus

05-05-2007, 07:38 PM

There actually is no 'proof' of much of any dislocation whatsoever in the format

There are two groups that get this data from another source. Within R&D, there exists a FFL for standard and perhaps something for other formats to test the effects of cards through empirical data. There is also a black box at the DCI which helps them decide what cards are broken, or not broken.

I don't know specifically what these are, but there exist a lot of people at WotC and the DCI who are good enough at magic to know when something should be banned. You're basically saying the DCI is too stupid to recognize how broken this card is, which is a cop-out defense.

kirdape3

05-05-2007, 07:50 PM

Slay

05-05-2007, 07:51 PM

I don't know specifically what these are, but there exist a lot of people at WotC and the DCI who are good enough at magic to know when something should be banned. You're basically saying the DCI is too stupid to recognize how broken this card is, which is a cop-out defense.

Nonsense. There's a very strong history and precedent in Magic cards for supposedly 'broken' decks to be relegated to merely top tier along with other decks because the metagame shifts. The fact that a format that has been very stable for the past year and a half suddenly is dominated by a single deck that hasn't put up any tournament results whatsoever is going to raise a few eyebrows, but for the DCI who sees cries to ban X overpowered cards that will ruin magic forever everyday, it's natural that they take it with a grain of salt. The DCI being naive(stupid is a misleading word) in assuming that the card isn't as absurdly broken as we know it isn't a cop-out, it's a fact of how the DCI has to operate. If they ban a card everytime the hype about it is overwhelming, they aren't doing their jobs. They rely on tournament results to show them that they need to take action, because tournament results are what matters, bitching about it on forums does not.
-Slay

Machinus

05-05-2007, 07:54 PM

tournament results are what matters, bitching about it on forums does not.-Slay

This discounts the entire capacity for WotC/DCI employees to understand power level. They make the cards, and they have played a lot of tournament magic. To suggest, as you are doing, that this plays no role in the development of formats (like Legacy) and B/R decisions of the company is naive, and wrong.

I'm saying that the policy is in place (and I do believe it's a good one), to have hard tournament data be the judge of how degenerate a deck or card is. Right now, there literally is no hard tournament data, correct?

I'm pretty sure that Flash will be banned (far more likely than errata given the stance that Gottlieb has taken), but it will be on June 1 rather than at any time before. That is, assuming that effective counterstrategies don't evolve before May 19.

I don't think they will ban it either, and I have elaborated on this in this thread, but I think they should.

There is no "policy" to ban things only when they are proven to be degenerate, and that is a horrible way to preserve order in formats. You brought up Desire and Jar, which are great counterexamples of this, but there are many others. Accelerants and draw spells are pre-emptively restricted in Vintage all the time. And back when R&D made powerful cards, the DCI did take more extreme action when it was appropriate. This is exactly like that - the Rules Team has printed a new, fucking disgusting card, a month before a GP, and they should have banned it.

The assumption that there is some empirical standard for WotC's decisions is false. For all matters, not just B/R action, they ahdere to publicly-known policy when it suits them, and they change it when it doesn't. The "rules" governing their behaviour don't really exist.

It would have been in the best interests of the company to preserve an interesting format, if they wished to profit. And as Jack has noted, it would only have improved public perception of the company by assuring players a dynamic and fair format to play in.

In conclusion, this was negligence, as I have stated from the beginning.

kirdape3

05-05-2007, 08:24 PM

The only preemptive restrictions that I can remember in Vintage are specifically Mind's Desire, Imperial Seal, and Personal Tutor. Academy and Jar weren't pre-emptively restricted - it took time for that to happen.

I would actually surmise that the hype around Flash is causing a far more interesting format for the public at large (Will the deck perform as much as the hype? Will any effective counter arise?) than the existing order did. Any research at all shows that Goblins and Threshold were going to be the two most likely decks to Day 2. Now? Do we KNOW? We can surmise that Flash will be the most popular deck, but we actually don't know where the format is leading going into Columbus. That's an inherently GOOD thing - that means that there's room to maneuver.

It's absolutely fortuitous then that this errata happened when it did.

Machinus

05-05-2007, 08:57 PM

I would actually surmise that the hype around Flash is causing a far more interesting format for the public at large (Will the deck perform as much as the hype? Will any effective counter arise?) than the existing order did. Any research at all shows that Goblins and Threshold were going to be the two most likely decks to Day 2. Now? Do we KNOW? We can surmise that Flash will be the most popular deck, but we actually don't know where the format is leading going into Columbus. That's an inherently GOOD thing - that means that there's room to maneuver.

It doesn't make the format less predictable (and that's an irrelevant metric for the health of a format). It makes it more predictable. GP Flash is going to be Flash and Anti-Flash decks. Your argument seems to be that if you were too ignorant of magic to recognize that a fast, resilient combo deck is the best deck to play, then maybe this is more interesting than the previous format. That's not true, and it's also pointless because everyone here knows how good this deck is. That perspective doesn't have anything to do with what is going to happen in Columbus.

It's absolutely fortuitous then that this errata happened when it did.

Either you hate Legacy, or you are doing your very best Meandeck ad campaign to deflect attention from this deck's power. In either case I accuse you, and therefore your arguments, of being disingenuous in this discussion.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-05-2007, 08:58 PM

Um, no, that's true of Quidditch, not sports and games people actually care about. Having a last minute change to make all the build up and preparation and weening as the strongest deck is determined irrelevant isn't fun and exciting, it's incredibly frustrating because it means that everything that happened before was pointless.

Let me surmise what you sound like:

"Before the Superbowl, any research showed that the Colts were going to be most favored to win, or, failing that, the Bears. Given that, I would surmise that the NFL's decision to unleash a pack of ferocious, hungry wolverines onto the field during the second quarter was a good thing- now what will happen? Do we KNOW? Most people would expect that the wolverines will eat most of the players, but maybe some of them won't get eaten. Perhaps this will give the Bears the edge they need to escape with more players still alive. That seems like an inherently good thing- now there's more room for speculation. It's very fortuitous that those rabid wolverines were released when they were."

Slay

05-05-2007, 08:59 PM

This discounts the entire capacity for WotC/DCI employees to understand power level. They make the cards, and they have played a lot of tournament magic. To suggest, as you are doing, that this plays no role in the development of formats (like Legacy) and B/R decisions of the company is naive, and wrong.

This would matter if Flash was in Planar Chaos, but it wasn't, it was in Mirage. You can't expect them to know that a random junk rare from a long time ago when power-level errata is killed to completely dominate a format. Sometimes incredibly powerful decks that come out of nowhere crush a format, sometimes they're brought in line by the power of the metagame, sometimes they turn out to be overrated hype. The DCI is filled with great players, yes, but they aren't actively trying to break the format like we are. All they can and should do is whip up netdecks and armchair theorize about the format, it's asking way too much of them to want them to figure out the meta with regards to how a new deck would react to the meta. I think banning Flash before the GP is the right choice, but it's not them slacking if they don't, it's them doing their jobs.
-Slay

Machinus

05-05-2007, 09:05 PM

This would matter if Flash was in Planar Chaos, but it wasn't, it was in Mirage. You can't expect them to know that a random junk rare from a long time ago when power-level errata is killed to completely dominate a format.

Actually, Flash was only really printed last month. When one of the highest ranking officials in their organization creates a broken deck overnight a month before a tournament, it is definitely reasonable to expect them to pay attention to it and do something about it.

All they can and should do is whip up netdecks and armchair theorize about the format, it's asking way too much of them to want them to figure out the meta with regards to how a new deck would react to the meta. I think banning Flash before the GP is the right choice, but it's not them slacking if they don't, it's them doing their jobs.-Slay

I agree that it is asking too much for them to have to prove to themselves that it is broken. But I think that doesn't ultimately matter, because they didn't prove to themselves that Mind over Matter was broken, or that Land Tax was broken. They banned those cards right out and never thought about it again. If they applied the same amount of effort to this problem, they would have realized a rare event was in serious danger. Just look at the B/R list right now and tell me that something isn't seriously fucking wrong with the DCI's level of attention to this format.

As Jack noted, the week of testing that a few players have done is nothing compared to the year and a half of tuning and innovation everyone else has done in this format.

MattH

05-05-2007, 09:26 PM

I'm saying that the policy is in place (and I do believe it's a good one), to have hard tournament data be the judge of how degenerate a deck or card is. Right now, there literally is no hard tournament data, correct?

I'm pretty sure that Flash will be banned (far more likely than errata given the stance that Gottlieb has taken), but it will be on June 1 rather than at any time before. That is, assuming that effective counterstrategies don't evolve before May 19.

We had a tournament today, for a Mox. Only 16 people showed, four with Flash. Three of them T8ed, all with significantly different builds. The T8 went:

Flash vs Flash
Flash (me) vs Flash-hate (Tog with FoW, Counterspell, Duress, Therapy, Daze, Meddling Mage, and sideboarded Chalices and Chants. Yes, I groused about getting this matchup.)
Belcher vs Belcher
The Rock vs unknown

T4:
Flash vs Belcher
Rock vs Hate

T2: Flash vs Rock

And I assume Flash won, I left before the finals played out. Take that as you will.

I have a better question: at what point is it too late to ban it? They obviously shouldn't ban it the morning of the GP, as so many people will have come either prepared to play or beat it. So to all the "emergency ban" advocates, what is the point where it does more damage to the GP to ban the card then to leave it unbanned?

Zilla

05-05-2007, 09:33 PM

Let me ask the following questions, and please don't perceive them as rhetoric or sarcasm, because they're not intended to be:

1. What do you hope to achieve with this conversation? Is it just a place to vent your (justifiable) frustration?

2. Do you actually suppose that this discussion is going to change the decision-making process before the GP?

Also, let me clarify my position:

1. I wish these changes hadn't happened right before the GP. It's really going to screw up the dynamics of the event, and could very well lead to such frustration that some people will not attend the event, or worse, will quit playing the format entirely.

2. Based on extensive testing, it is clear that the Flash combo is exceedingly degenerate and unhealthy for this format.

3. My opinions stated in numbers 1 and 2 are irrelevant, as they will almost certainly not have any bearing on the outcome of events. The established policy (which is, for the most part, logical and correct) is to base decisions about banning solely on actual tournament data.

While the current situation is extreme in our eyes, it is not going to make the DCI change its policy on this matter. And to be honest, I'm not sure it should. A very similar hue and cry was raised by the Vintage and 1.5 communities about how devastating Chalice of the Void would be on these formats, and how they would deligitemize entire archetypes and cause massive distortions to both formats' metagames. Should the DCI have listened to this widespread protest and preemptively banned the card? Do we really want them to make their decisions about restrictions and bannings based on vocal public outcry, without tempering their decisions by seeing the card's actual effect based on real tournament data?

Yes, I understand that this example differs from the current situation both in specifics and in level of severity. However, it's a safe bet that the DCI does not see a significant difference. And how can they know for sure, except to let things play out and see how badly it actually breaks the format?

It sucks, but it is what it is.

Machinus

05-05-2007, 09:44 PM

I was waiting for this response from you. I understand the reasons for asking.

I want to do two things.

1) I want to motivate my format to pay attention to the DCI and be active in talking to them and in telling them what is wrong with what they are doing. I wrote an article last fall about B/R restrictions because I think there is something fundamentally wrong with the way they are managing the format. Players by and large agreed with my assessments of those cards, and unamimously with my approach. This community needs to be critical, and precise about its criticisms.

2) If there is any discussion at the DCI about actions to be taken regarding this card, I want there to be a scathing and rigorous analysis of this problem to be publicly available from a number of experienced players. I consider this thread to be that object.

Legacy players: the DCI is not paying attention to you, and that is negatively affecting your experience and the way you play the game. Flash is the most destructive possible example of my message. Say something about it.

If this is insufficient reason for a thread to live then I'm fine with it being locked.

frogboy

05-05-2007, 10:03 PM

I don't think anyone disputes Flash should be banned. They just don't want it emergency banned.

I'm also not sure I agree that the DCI is ignoring the format. How many articles have been written in the past two years about the Legacy B&R list by Legacy players? (it's not a rhetorical question, I don't actually know) When Time Vault was errata'd, Shay and Menendian got Wizards to clarify their position pretty explicitly by an outpouring of articles. (and presumably emails) I think if more articles were written it's likely that change would occur. I mean, I guess SCG isn't going to publish a half dozen articles all saying the same thing, but some sort of email campaign might work.

It seems more to me the DCI is maintaining the status quo because there wasn't anything wrong with the format prior to Flash and no one was really agitating for Mind Over Matter and Land Tax to come off, and they didn't want to rock the boat. I'll lead the charge to Renton if Flash is legal on June 21.

Machinus

05-05-2007, 10:11 PM

I'm also not sure I agree that the DCI is ignoring the format. How many articles have been written in the past two years about the Legacy B&R list by Legacy players? (it's not a rhetorical question, I don't actually know) When Time Vault was errata'd, Shay and Menendian got Wizards to clarify their position pretty explicitly by an outpouring of articles. (and presumably emails)

Shay and Menendian wrote in about Vintage, not Legacy. They do actually pay some attention to Vintage.

I've written many articles, and I've emailed quite a lot of people over these past two and a half years about the format. I know many other players who have done the same thing. There has been no response to this, either via mtg.com or privately.

There have been no actions taken by the DCI since the format was created. It has been clear to many players that some number of cards can be safely taken off the list, and this has not been done. WotC has not analyzed the GPs or championships, or even talked about the formation process behind the format. There has been no indication that they are even monitoring it. There is no ambiguiuty in their behaviour. They are ignoring Legacy completely.

I think if more articles were written it's likely that change would occur. I mean, I guess SCG isn't going to publish a half dozen articles all saying the same thing, but some sort of email campaign might work.

This is what I am trying to accomplish. Analyze the problems we are having, and write about them so that Wizards can hear.

kirdape3

05-05-2007, 10:34 PM

Seeing as how the Time Vault plan didn't actually accomplish it's stated goal (to re-errata Time Vault such that the Fusillade kill works), I can only assume that an overwhelming surge of e-mails will not be effective in getting Flash emergency-banned. You are more than welcome to try it, but I would not hold out hope.

I however do not see anything in particular that is different from other degenerate eras (Affinity in Standard, Tide/Academy/Trix/FEB/Pebbles/x in old Extended, any Storm-fueled modern Vintage era, etc) about the current format. Most of the time the bannings shaped themselves out only after major tournaments have passed. 16 player GPTs won't get the attention of the DCI. Duels for Duals are liable to, but the next big tournament is a Grand Prix. Emergency banning is not eminently warranted - we can only SURMISE that it will dominate a Grand Prix. I'm assuming that it will be an extremely good deck, even on the level of Mirrodin block Affinity. Banworthy? Sure. Emergency ban? Not likely, and you'd desperately want to have tournaments that are large enough to get their attention to provide concrete data that it IS in fact warping the format.

I agree that it will/does, but I also do not think that it will be emergency banned and I absolutely do not think that Gottlieb will re-errata it.

frogboy

05-05-2007, 10:34 PM

They are ignoring Legacy completely.

Dude, there's a Grand Prix in two weeks. I don't think they're completely ignoring the format.

edit: by the way, there were only eight Skullclamps in the top eight of PT Kobe.

Zilla

05-05-2007, 10:54 PM

Legacy players: the DCI is not paying attention to you, and that is negatively affecting your experience and the way you play the game. Flash is the most destructive possible example of my message. Say something about it.
This most clearly summates your actual point. I think we were getting bogged down with the discussion of why they did it or if they should have done it. The thread would be more productive at this rate if people focused on their actual experiences testing with and against Flash, and why you think (or don't think) the combo needs to have action taken against it. If you actually want your voice to be heard by anyone that matters, base your observations on actual testing. Conjecture and naysaying is utterly useless.

kirdape3

05-05-2007, 11:05 PM

What I can tell you is this:

1) There are decks (good decks, mind you) that beat the ever living shit out of Flash. Nice deck you got there, not like you're going to do anything.

2) That being said, it takes the number of good decks down to those two plus Belcher. Decks that beat one of them are liable to get steamrolled by the combo decks. That right there makes banning likely. Between Flash and Belcher, that determines the clock of the format - turn 2 at the latest. If you haven't seriously impeded either deck at that point, you're dead.

Zilla

05-05-2007, 11:36 PM

There are decks (good decks, mind you) that beat the ever living shit out of Flash.
All of them? I doubt it. I don't suppose you care to back this assertion with a list?

kirdape3

05-05-2007, 11:42 PM

Absolutely not.

EDIT: You can either believe me that there are decks that defeat Flash without a list and respect that I have teammates who are planning on playing in the Grand Prix who should have their deck selection not known to the public, or you can not believe me and think that the sky is indeed falling.

Lego

05-06-2007, 12:14 AM

1) There are decks (good decks, mind you) that beat the ever living shit out of Flash. Nice deck you got there, not like you're going to do anything.

This leads me to believe that you haven't actually tested. At all. You may be able to create a deck that has a positive matchup against one version of Flash. I could even see you creating a deck that has a positive matchup against all iterations of Flash. But overwhelmingly positive? I'm not sure that's even possible. Definitely not against every version of the deck at once.

frogboy

05-06-2007, 12:38 AM

Kird, I believe that you're speaking in good faith, but please don't make these kinds of contentious statements without providing some sort of support for your argument.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-06-2007, 12:58 AM

There are decks that beat Flash. I imagine it involves a playset each of Force of Will, Daze, Stifle, Duress, probably Unmask, maybe Leyline of the Void. Extirpate, perhaps? I think I have a pretty good approximation of what a deck aiming to beat all versions of Flash has to look like here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5710).

However, simply because an aggro control deck that runs sixteen to twenty four hate cards is able to get to 50/50 or maybe even 60/40 against Hulk doesn't mean that the card isn't destroying the format; it's a symptom of what it looks like when a deck is warping the metagame beyond recognition. I ran a mono-green control deck in Mirrodin/Kamigawa type 2, before they nuked Raffinity, with Tel-Jilad Justice, Viridian Shamans, Beacons and Molder Slugs, and I had a pretty good raffinity matchup, but when twelve cards in your deck have to say "Destroy target artifact" to get to that point, and when a third of your deck has to be capable of stopping turn 1 combos that win the game, we're not in a healthy place anymore.

freakish777

05-06-2007, 01:54 AM

Within R&D, there exists a FFL for standard and perhaps something for other formats to test the effects of cards through empirical data.

The Future Future League does not test cards that are receiving updated wording. Again, there's a disconnect between the Rules Team "fixing" the oracle wording on a card and FFL doing anything. Even if FFL they knew it was receiving an update I highly doubt they'd bother testing it, their primary job description as card developers is to test Limited, Standard and to a smaller extent Extended and appropriately cost the cards, when a broken mechanic comes up, to whine about it in the Multi-verse to the designers and tell them it's unfun and needs to change.

There is also a black box at the DCI which helps them decide what cards are broken, or not broken.

If you're referring to what I think you are (from a RB or AF article), you'll also remember that said Black Box really only thoroughly checks Standard and certain "known" potentially breakable cards in Extended (I could be mistaken, I really don't think I am, hence it's not a exhaustive search even in Extended, creating a program that can gauge the power level of card interactions is a difficult enough proposition if you know anything about CompSci, even if you have it, the run time on the program could be giantic if you don't prune out cards like Fog from the list of cards to check against). Even if Protean Hulk is in fact in the database of cards to run your search against for broken interactions (assuming said Black Box is actually a program), you'd still have to actually put Flash in to check, again, the disconnect between the Rules Team doing their job in an efficient manner (without having to get the "Ok" for every card they errata back to the original wording) and the people who make policies regarding the B&R lists.

who are good enough at magic to know when something should be banned. You're basically saying the DCI is too stupid to recognize how broken this card is, which is a cop-out defense.

They probably didn't get the memo from Mark Gottlieb that "Hey I'm changing this one particular card that originally got changed due to some horribly broken interaction, because I don't remember playing against that horribly broken interaction." Hence, no heads-up in an article by Forsythe, card of the day with "Hey guys this card is going back to it's original form, won't GP Columbus be fun with all the wacky hi-jinks going on?", etc.

All the bitching in the world isn't going to change anything if you aren't the one capable of making Policies unless you're somehow very persuasive, and forgive for being blunt here, but you're not (in this argument at the very least). You either have to accept the fact that GP Columbus will have this combo be legal, or perhaps find someone to make argument for you in a more convincing fashion to the people who can make policy. If it's something you feel that strongly about and you're certain people with skill do as well, you could perhaps attempt getting ahold of Zvi's (http://thezvi.livejournal.com/) attention, or someone like Osyp (as he's played Legacy and actually wrote a tournament report for it, seemed to enjoy it, asking Wizards for more large scale Legacy events), or Pikula. If they agree with you that the interaction is broken, wouldn't they have a vested interest in not having the GP just be who wins the coin-flip (since they're more likely to be able to outplay their opponents a higher percentage of the time without a broken deck around)?

you had a broken quote---frogboy

Belgareth

05-06-2007, 03:45 AM

How about this: For every child under the age of fourteen who makes day two of the GP with Hulk Flash, I pay you $50. For every person with level two PT status or fifty lifetime points who makes day two with Hulk Flash, you pay me $10.

Takers?

What is it with stupid bets on this site ? It's a mtg site not Gambling Anonymous . I would actually take that bet , but the conditions would be that you not only convinced the parents of every under 14 that they could go, but gave them all lifts too.
Just because I said this deck takes no skill, doesn't mean everyone has the means to get to the GP.
Pros are Pros because they were at events, there are many people that have never had the means to get to events, doesn't make them any less skilled.

To dismiss the fact that this format is largely ignored with a childish bet just seems sad :(
Ok a Pro probably will win the GP, it will also probably be with a Flash.dec or antiFlash.dec .
Does this make him skilled ? No , it means in all likelyhood he/she is blagging their way into a format they know nothing about using a deck which requires no skill, combined with 3+ byes from completely different format and the intimidation of being good at T2.

Whenever I have played UK "pros" at legacy, I have not cared for their status because I know in a legacy field they are just the same as the rest of us except some/most of the legacy regulars know the format a lot better.

Do I think Flash is the end of world ? No
Do I think that the effect it has on the format is bad? Yes

Flash is basically a 2 mana instant win , yes there is a chance your opponent will have hate but I wouldn't bet on those odds.

Should a format be decided by 1 card ? People hated the fact that goblin lackey (and vial to some extent) were warping the format to answer them.
Yes it was possible , yes it's possible with flash but that doesn't mean it's correct.

If we let flash go by unanswered, then why not unban ringleader and let foodchain goblins.dec live too ? Or maybe we should just unban hermit druid, oath of druids and all the rest of the cards that allow sick consistent turn 2 combos ?

I don't think the sky is falling, but I do believe flash is not something that should be taken lightly as it will effect the whole future of legacy.

We are not a format built off the back of FNM and pro's , instead in the large we are a format of intelligent deck designers who enjoy playing with a large pool of cards.

So in summary, it's OUR format and we should as a whole choose the direction it takes, not let wotc ruin the format we love based on ignorance and a desire to make their online cash cow easier to program.

troopatroop

05-06-2007, 09:50 AM

Before the Superbowl, any research showed that the Colts were going to be most favored to win, or, failing that, the Bears. Given that, I would surmise that the NFL's decision to unleash a pack of ferocious, hungry wolverines onto the field during the second quarter was a good thing- now what will happen? Do we KNOW? Most people would expect that the wolverines will eat most of the players, but maybe some of them won't get eaten. Perhaps this will give the Bears the edge they need to escape with more players still alive. That seems like an inherently good thing- now there's more room for speculation. It's very fortuitous that those rabid wolverines were released when they were."

Amazing

Kenderleech

05-06-2007, 01:14 PM

[Quote:]
Before the Superbowl, any research showed that the Colts were going to be most favored to win, or, failing that, the Bears. Given that, I would surmise that the NFL's decision to unleash a pack of ferocious, hungry wolverines onto the field during the second quarter was a good thing- now what will happen? Do we KNOW? Most people would expect that the wolverines will eat most of the players, but maybe some of them won't get eaten. Perhaps this will give the Bears the edge they need to escape with more players still alive. That seems like an inherently good thing- now there's more room for speculation. It's very fortuitous that those rabid wolverines were released when they were."[QUOTE]

I would have paid to see that game.

Illissius

05-06-2007, 02:10 PM

I think the problem here is the lack of coordination between the separate departments at Wizards of the Coast. The Rules Team deals in rules. The DCI deals in power level. Normally, the two interact little to not at all. This is pretty clear, and as it should be. It is when the actions of one group have significant repercussions in the areas of responsibility of the other that some communication should take place. Power level errata is pretty obviously such a case, from the name alone. When the Rules Team decided to remove power level errata from Flash, they should have informed the DCI (and most egregiously, they should have informed the players). At this point, the DCI reviews the candidates for removal of power level errata, okays the ones which seem tame, and investigates further into the ones which look dangerous. What happens after this is unclear -- I can very much respect the argument that tournament performance, and not personal judgment or hype (effectively, mass judgment), is the only reliable metric of power level, so emergency banning is probably out -- but I don't think it is unreasonable for the Rules Team and the DCI to work together on determining the best timing for the changes. For example, not creating a card which breaks a format in half mere weeks before the first major event of that format in well over a year. Removing power level errata is a noble cause, but doing it a month later isn't a sin.

If rigidly following a set of policies leads to the current situation, that doesn't make the situation right. It makes the set of policies wrong. This is called pragmatism.

Also, someone asked whether Aaron Forsythe should have responded to every one of the doubtless many letters he received about this issue. No, that would clearly be unreasonable. It would also be unreasonable for him to respond to not even one of them. Even a brief form letter to the tune of "Thank you for your concern. We are currently looking into the situation." would have been massively better than what we have now. Along with their display of it when deerrataing Flash, it is this complete and utter lack of communication -- while breaking the format in half -- which most abundantly makes the case for Wizards being guilty of the negligence and disregard which Machinus accuses them of. Doubly so if it continues up until the Grand Prix.

Anusien

05-06-2007, 02:23 PM

When the Rules Team decided to remove power level errata from Flash, they should have informed the DCI (and most egregiously, they should have informed the players). At this point, the DCI reviews the candidates for removal of power level errata, okays the ones which seem tame, and investigates further into the ones which look dangerous
If they have to consider removing power-level errata, that defeats the purpose. The timing is potentially an issue, but the point is that you shouldn't have to consider the power level of the card, just to say that it has power level errata and remove it. There's an argument I don't feel like making about something always coming up, but when you get down to it, weird interactions are at the heart of this format, and I think you just have to deal with it.

Anyway, I'm not sure where this sense of entitlement comes from. If you as an average Chess player mail the international Chess organization (I can't remember the name), do you feel obligated to get a response back?

Anyway, the argument here goes one of two ways. You have to believe that either A) the rules team tested Flash and knew how broken it was, or B) they didn't test Flash and had no clue.
If you don't believe they tested Flash, then they're not responsible for un-errataing Flash being more significant than un-errata'ing Cloud of Faeries. Especially since those other creatures that got un-errata'ed (Karmic Guide anyone) were errata'ed because they wrecked a format). Perhaps because those guys did nothing...
If you believe they did test Flash, then I'd point to GP Massachusetts as an example of the entire format changing radically right before a GP.

Illissius

05-06-2007, 02:52 PM

If they have to consider removing power-level errata, that defeats the purpose. The timing is potentially an issue, but the point is that you shouldn't have to consider the power level of the card, just to say that it has power level errata and remove it.

Your argument is basically, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the Rules Team should only have to worry about the rules. I contend that this only holds if what the Rules Team does only affects the rules. If other areas are affected in a major way, then the relevant authorities for those other areas should also be involved. (Note that I'm not saying the Rules Team should playtest and evaluate power level themselves, which is not their job, but that they should consult with those whose job these things are when it is a concern. And evaluating whether a given change in wording has potential power level ramifications should take about two seconds for anyone who does Magic for a living, and much less when what you are removing is explicitly called "power level errata".)

There's an argument I don't feel like making about something always coming up

In most formats, perhaps, but even those are seasonal. In Legacy, not really. Even if they can't avoid doing the change before one semi large tournament or another, that's still clearly much better than doing it before a rare, majorly large tournament like the Grand Prix. They could hardly have chosen worse timing had they tried.

Anyway, I'm not sure where this sense of entitlement comes from.

We give them money. It is in their own personal best interest for people to enjoy the game as much as possible.

Anyway, the argument here goes one of two ways. You have to believe that either A) the rules team tested Flash and knew how broken it was, or B) they didn't test Flash and had no clue.
If you don't believe they tested Flash, then they're not responsible for un-errataing Flash being more significant than un-errata'ing Cloud of Faeries.
If you believe they did test Flash, then I'd point to GP Massachusetts as an example of the entire format changing radically right before a GP.

You don't have to test a card to know that "power level errata" means it has "power level significance". If they intentionally want to change the format before a Grand Prix, they should at least release a statement to this effect, and ideally explain the reasoning behind it. EDIT -- To be clear, the argument is they didn't know or more likely didn't care, but should have. If they did, then turning the format into degenerate combo hell is a pretty stupid change to inact intentionally.

TorpidNinja

05-06-2007, 03:03 PM

We give them money. It is in their own personal best interest for people to enjoy the game as much as possible.

I think you greatly overestimate Legacy's impact on Wizards' bottom line. At the end of the day, with respect to Legacy, Wizards has some of the least monetary incentive to really focus on you.

outsideangel

05-06-2007, 03:12 PM

I think you greatly overestimate Legacy's impact on Wizards' bottom line. At the end of the day, with respect to Legacy, Wizards has some of the least monetary incentive to really focus on you.

It's more than zero, though.

It's not like we're (for the most part) asking anything unreasonable. They should have notified the DCI, who's job it is to maintain a balanced format free of broken interactions, before removing the errata on a card that was errata'd specifically because of broken interactions. This would have allowed the DCI to get their shit together and make the appropriate bannings before the combo ever went live, and kept the GP metagame healthy and everyone happy.

It would have taken nothing more than a simple e-mail on the part of the Rules Team. Now, I'm not sure just how much money Legacy brings in for Wizards, but I'd be willing to bet that we're worth at least an e-mail.

hi-val

05-06-2007, 10:27 PM

Either you hate Legacy, or you are doing your very best Meandeck ad campaign to deflect attention from this deck's power. In either case I accuse you, and therefore your arguments, of being disingenuous in this discussion.

What kind of bifurcation is that? Yes, obviously Rian hates Legacy, and on top of that, Team Meandeck wants everyone to think Flash is bad because clearly people listen to us about Legacy :rolleyes:

It is possible that other people can hold opinions on things that vastly differ from your own, and that those people are allowed to hold those opinions.

Happy Gilmore

05-06-2007, 10:59 PM

I have one consolation out of all this. Since GP Philly and Lille, legacy has become much more popular all over the world. Not everyone will be able to play that Columbus so in some ways the metas in the rest of the world will only feel a minimal impact. Meanwhile I keep talking to people who have been in Legacy for nearly its entire durration who have chosen not to go to Columbus because of this stupid deck.

When a change like this has the ablitiy to keep people from having fun playing a card game, something needs to be done. I had such a good time at Philly, meeting new people, and seeing friends. I hope most of you choose to go to Columbus anyway, I would love to see you there.

Machinus

05-07-2007, 12:15 AM

What kind of bifurcation is that? Yes, obviously Rian hates Legacy, and on top of that, Team Meandeck wants everyone to think Flash is bad because clearly people listen to us about Legacy :rolleyes:

It is possible that other people can hold opinions on things that vastly differ from your own, and that those people are allowed to hold those opinions.

Flash is not good for this format. As has been stated before in this thread, an 8-year old could come to the same conclusion. To disagree is not an "opinion" as you say - its either malice or dishonesty. It could also be genuine ignorance but I don't think that is the case here.

hi-val

05-07-2007, 12:39 AM

Why is it malice or dishonesty? I mean, it's nice that you seem to have come up with the only two conclusions that are possible. Can you even entertain the idea that some people might have different ideas about it?

For example, I think Flash is really interesting for the format. You take a static format and introduce a radical element, and obviously, that changes a lot. I am not talking about good vs. bad for the format (that's language that you introduced). Changing around this static system will lead to all sorts of other interesting changes. Change is always healthy for the environment.

I'm personally really looking forward to playing Flash decks. How does one build it optimally? How does the mirror match unfold? Do you metagame for the Flash deck or the deck that beats it? What cards work best at beating it? How do you build Flash to remain powerful, but still resilient? How should the manabase look? The sideboard?

Now, read the above and ask yourself the following: am I being dishonest? Am I being ignorant? Am I being malicious? No, obviously I am not being any of these. An 8 year old could see that. I am genuinely interested in how this radical change will shake up the format; if it is too radical, then corrective measures will take place. I am really looking forward to playing in this exciting time in Legacy.

Citrus-God

05-07-2007, 12:42 AM

Flash is not good for this format. As has been stated before in this thread, an 8-year old could come to the same conclusion. To disagree is not an "opinion" as you say - its either malice or dishonesty. It could also be genuine ignorance but I don't think that is the case here.

This could motivate us to build decks that beat Flash, but however.... this means the decks we build are very reliant on getting paired up Flash constantly, just so we get to play a 50 min game of coin flips.

Yes, the Black Plague is coming. This is much worse than Trinisphere in T1, and yes, there's no interaction involved because by the time you throw two FoWs at it, you should expect the same suite of disruption as well.

Machinus

05-07-2007, 12:49 AM

Now, read the above and ask yourself the following: am I being dishonest? Am I being ignorant? Am I being malicious?

You're being ignorant. I had expected more from a team that claims to take magic seriously. I will now explain to you the point of the DCI, understood by all its employees before they go work there.

A combo that wins the game for two mana while protected by acceleration, consistent tutoring, and free permission is unfair, unfun, and unpopular.

It warps the format by deciding wins based on who can use The Card first. This is called "degenerate." It leads to luck-based tournaments, lower attendance, less sales, and a stupid game.

If you're opinion is that it's fun to roll dice to see who wins the game, then you should be going to casinos, not pretending you're applying deckbuilding and testing in order to succeed. What's more, no one at Wizards shares that opinion, and the vast majority of magic players understand why.

Flash is bad for this format. If you still don't understand that, I promise this game will make a lot more sense to you in two weeks.

hi-val

05-07-2007, 12:51 AM

I don't want to sound patronizing, but have you guys tested Threshold against Flash? It's completely lopsided in the former's favor. It's not a coinflip and it's not a deck that cannot beat anything else. I'm looking forward to some very interesting games of Magic at the GP. Watching some games of Flash at the Meandeck Open today made me realize that just about everything can interact with Flash, and that situations often favored the smarter and better player, regardless of deck.

The Flash mirror is VERY interesting.

hi-val

05-07-2007, 12:54 AM

You're being ignorant. I had expected more from a team that claims to take magic seriously. I will now explain to you the point of the DCI, understood by all its employees before they go work there.

A combo that wins the game for two mana while protected by acceleration, consistent tutoring, and free permission is unfair, unfun, and unpopular.

It warps the format by deciding wins based on who can use The Card first. This is called "degenerate." It leads to luck-based tournaments, lower attendance, less sales, and a stupid game.

If you're opinion is that it's fun to roll dice to see who wins the game, then you should be going to casinos, not pretending you're applying deckbuilding and testing in order to succeed. What's more, no one at Wizards shares that opinion, and the vast majority of magic players understand why.

Flash is bad for this format. If you still don't understand that, I promise this game will make a lot more sense to you in two weeks.

I had expected a modicum of respect from you as a fellow writer and Legacy player, but apparently you're more interested in being right than being mature. I've tried to discuss this with you in a serious manner but all you seem to be interested in is insulting me and my team. Drop the attitude. I'm serious, Chris.

That you cannot understand that someone could look forward to playing a deck in a format is supreme ignorance. Grow up.

Machinus

05-07-2007, 01:06 AM

I had expected a modicum of respect from you as a fellow writer and Legacy player, but apparently you're more interested in being right than being mature. I've tried to discuss this with you in a serious manner but all you seem to be interested in is insulting me and my team. Drop the attitude. I'm serious, Chris.

That you cannot understand that someone could look forward to playing a deck in a format is supreme ignorance. Grow up.

I respect your team. Some of its members have built great decks and performed very well. But you have also have some of the most egotistical and immaturely behaving members of the Eternal community. I don't accept your hypocritical accusation, and I wonder what kind of subjective validation it takes to stand by teammates who reduce the intellectual and constructive debates that occur in these formats to petty fights. It's definitely not an adherence to civility or leadership.

It isn't really significant that you or anyone else would look forward to playing this deck at the tournament. The deck is unfair. Of course you want to play it.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-07-2007, 01:18 AM

I don't want to sound patronizing, but have you guys tested Threshold against Flash? It's completely lopsided in the former's favor.

When the Hatfields and Anwar, all three of whom have more tournament success and experience with Threshold than you do, tell me that Hulk-Flash has ridiculously good game against Threshold, I'm more inclined to believe them than you. Now granted, they hadn't yet made the switch from Stifle to Pithing Needle, but I'm not seeing that breaking the matchup wide open.

Change is always healthy for the environment.

This is transparently false. Unbanning Black Lotus would change the format. Would that be healthy?
Banning all lands with the basic land type "Island" would change the format. Would that be healthy?
Making the minimum deck size 173 cards would change the the environment. Would that be healthy?

This is just a blatantly ignorant statement.

I'm personally really looking forward to playing Flash decks. How does one build it optimally? How does the mirror match unfold? Do you metagame for the Flash deck or the deck that beats it? What cards work best at beating it? How do you build Flash to remain powerful, but still resilient? How should the manabase look? The sideboard?

This statement only made sense when I remembered your previous claims that you didn't feel a need to test decks, because you could get a pretty good idea just from looking at them. It makes me wonder why I'm taking you seriously enough to bother replying.

You would have a pretty good idea what the answers to most of these questions if you actually playtested it. If you did that, you would have absolutely zero interest in seeing it play out at the Grand Prix, the same way any sporting enthusiast wouldn't think a little league team taking on the New York Yankees would be a fun and exciting variation on the same old same old.

JACO

05-07-2007, 01:37 AM

But in those other cases, no, not at all. Cloud of Faeries is a 1/1 flyer. Flash is a turn 0 combo deck. They can't even answer an email? Yes, it's negligence.
It's not negligence because they ignore the emails of a few Legacy players, or because they are continuing their policy of removing power-level errata to older cards. Do you have any idea how many thousands of emails a day Wizards gets? You are not special, and your opinion is irrelevant to them. The timing of the removal of power level errata from Flash (and other cards) may be unfortunate in its timing, but deal with it.

I have tested multiple variations of the deck for GP Columbus, and I don't think it's the shiznit and tournament wrecking deck like many of you seem to proclaim. A very basic retooled 4C Threshold decklist can beat it without too much trouble, while still being very strong against the rest of the field. The 8 Mirage tutors totally get boned by Predict, and Threshold plays more counters and better counters than Hulk Flash, and have the trump card in the matchup (Meddling Mage). If Threshold has a decent matchup against Hulk Flash, and it's the second most widely played deck, I don't think that GP Columbus and the format are going to be taken over by Hulk Flash. Just because Hulk Flash might be one of the most played decks in the upcoming GP doesn't mean it will do well.

Suppose you were a pro player and had kept up with Legacy for some time, and then were told, from no official authority, and with no assurance of it's validity, that there was now a turn 0 combo deck with free counter backup in the same format. You would be very skeptical before doing any of that.
Who have you been testing with? Chris, you have put up good results in the past, are a competent writer, but your opinions in this thread are basically those I would expect from the casual Legacy player. As an aside, the versions that even play Gemstone Caverns are terribly inconsistent, and the possibility that you'll even have all the combo pieces on turn 0 is like 4%. So if you use nearly every card in your hand, and attempt to go off, and then something simply gets Force of Willed, you've basically lost that game. You probably have no colored mana left, and no decent cards left in your hand. This is similar to how the deck Meandeck SX functioned in Vintage. Once people realized it was inconsistent and lost to a well timed Force of Will (only one of the most widely played cards in Vintage, and Legacy), the hype died down, and it basically went away. Randy Buehler's comments and policies are not 'out of date' as you would argue. Why should Wizards EVER ban a card before it's been proved ban-worthy? Because it means you can't run the same boring mono-red Goblins decklist at an upcoming Grand Prix?

For all the bitching people do about how 'control is invalidated in this format' and 'Goblin Lackey needs to be banned' or 'Goblin Ringleader needs to be banned,' maybe you can just shut up and advance the format by building new decks that perform in large tournaments. You people seem to have never lived through Pro Tour seasons where the climate changes as tournaments and deck technology play out. Trix was basically pushed out of the Extended format by Gro and Miracle Gro, and I expect the same of Hulk Flash. I guess that's why most Pros just build good decks that will win if they judge the field correctly (and come up with their own solutions), rather than wasting their time bitching and trying to get the DCI to ban cards.

GIVE IT A CHANCE and let's see what happens.

hi-val

05-07-2007, 01:43 AM

It isn't really significant that you or anyone else would look forward to playing this deck at the tournament. The deck is unfair. Of course you want to play it.

Of course it's unfair. Of course I want to play it. I'd like to win the GP using every advantage that I can get within the rules. Although I am not a pro and probably never will be, this is a behavior common in pros not named Flores.

Why do you keep dragging my team into this? Are you jealous of us? Do you have a crush on someone? Do you want equal attention to what is given to the numerous writers, past and present, on our team? Because I don't remember bringing it up at all in this thread and it seems that you're dragging it in here as another excuse to bash on me. I'd appreciate it if you stop doing that because I'm not going to change anyone's mind about my team neither are you.

IBA: Of course they've had more success with Threshold in events, and it's a good idea to listen to them. Stifle does change the match a lot; you add in 4 more cards that completely hose the combo for a very reasonable price. I can't give you figures, but I'll say that it does improve it, as much as adding 4 of any good card for the match would. Caboose's report, where he talks about being undefeated vs. Flash, as well as seeing several matches today at the Meandeck Open, make be believe that Thresh has a fine game against it. We'll see though.

If we're going on anecdotal evidence, then consider what I've been hearing too. None of my teammates on Flash wanted to play against Threshold or Fish today, as both were, as they said, scary decks to play against. I believe Paul Mastriano called the Threshold match "unwinnable".

As for your rhetorical questions about unbanning Lotus, etc., would that make the format unhealthy? Would a 173-card minimum make things unhealthy? It'd lead to fundamantal changes in deckbuilding in Legacy, and probably change the format competely. That doesn't seem necessarily good or bad, just different. Perhaps I was imprecise with my words when I said "unhealthy". I'll admit that you got me on your reductio ad absurdum.

Zilla

05-07-2007, 02:02 AM

Lego

05-07-2007, 02:13 AM

I don't want to sound patronizing, but have you guys tested Threshold against Flash? It's completely lopsided in the former's favor.

Playing the builds that existed before Flash, we found it to be about 60/40 in Flash's favor. Adding in Flash hate made it about 60/40 in Thresh's favor. Admittedly, that was pre-board with a fairly non-optimized Flash deck. With a good Thresh deck, it may be slightly positive, but far from lopsided.

That seems like a pretty bad argument in general though. Seeing as it's quite possible that 75% of the decks at the GP will be packing Leyline of the Void, Thresh doesn't seem like the perfect choice...

I am really looking forward to playing in this exciting time in Vintage.

When did we start talking about Vintage? The rest of us are talking about Legacy. You've seemed to miss this in several of your posts though, as a lot of what you say seems to point to you wanting Legacy to be exactly the same as Vintage. It's ok if Hulk is the only deck in the format, because the mirror match is really tough? We should unban Black Lotus because it would change things up for a while? Thanks, but no thanks. I play Legacy because I don't want to play Vintage, thank you very much.

hi-val

05-07-2007, 02:24 AM

That was a typo, and I thank you for pointing it out. It's not worth reading anything more into it, I was talking/thinking Vintage with someone when I was writing that post. I've fixed the typo now.

Machinus

05-07-2007, 02:48 AM

It's not negligence...

I don't think they should have answered anyone's email in particular. I think they should have made a statement to at least one person, somewhere inside or outside the organization, to clarify the unusual circumstances regarding this change. I am accusing them of negligence simply because this is the time when they should have been paying the most attention to the B/R, and it turns out they were paying none at all.

As an aside, the versions that even play Gemstone Caverns are terribly inconsistent, and the possibility that you'll even have all the combo pieces on turn 0 is like 4%.

I agree with those testing conclusions. My point about the speed of the deck was to show that it is so good that it is logical to doubt it's reality. It doesn't matter if its turn 0, or 1, or 2, because this format is so low powered and interactive that a deck like this replaces the entire metagame with X and anti X.

Do you have a crush on someone? Do you want equal attention to what is given to the numerous writers, past and present, on our team? Because I don't remember bringing it up at all in this thread and it seems that you're dragging it in here as another excuse to bash on me. I'd appreciate it if you stop doing that because I'm not going to change anyone's mind about my team neither are you.

If you really want to have a "mature" discussion about this, stop pretending your team doesn't engage in the misleading tactics, unsporstmanlike conduct, and egotistical forum behaviour that it does. Once we agree that those things are destructive, then there's no reason to mention your team. But it just so happens that a certain team has a tendency to make relativistic arugments about what is inappropriate and what is not depending on whether or not it benefits said team. I'd be happy to discover you are genuinely interested in constructive discussion but I will need to hear real ideas being offered, not this ridiculous projective self-defense that has nothing to do with reality or the motivations of the people in this discussion.

Regarding Flash, I agree that it's logical for good players to want to win by "legal" means. However, you are missing what is the most important part of this - good players want to win through their superior skill. Skill is the only advantage pros can ensure they have over their opponents, and when the cards become this good, their chances of success go down.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-07-2007, 03:13 AM

IBA: Of course they've had more success with Threshold in events, and it's a good idea to listen to them. Stifle does change the match a lot; you add in 4 more cards that completely hose the combo for a very reasonable price. I can't give you figures, but I'll say that it does improve it, as much as adding 4 of any good card for the match would. Caboose's report, where he talks about being undefeated vs. Flash, as well as seeing several matches today at the Meandeck Open, make be believe that Thresh has a fine game against it. We'll see though.

So, I heard you just say that it's a good idea to listen to people that have won tournaments with Gro, and then you seem to say you're not going to listen to them. Byah?

If we're going on anecdotal evidence, then consider what I've been hearing too. None of my teammates on Flash wanted to play against Threshold or Fish today, as both were, as they said, scary decks to play against. I believe Paul Mastriano called the Threshold match "unwinnable".

I will be happy to play against you with your running Threshold and my running Hulk-Flash. Maybe you'd like to verify the wisdom of this idea with Hanni first, though.

As for your rhetorical questions about unbanning Lotus, etc., would that make the format unhealthy? Would a 173-card minimum make things unhealthy? It'd lead to fundamantal changes in deckbuilding in Legacy, and probably change the format competely. That doesn't seem necessarily good or bad, just different. Perhaps I was imprecise with my words when I said "unhealthy". I'll admit that you got me on your reductio ad absurdum.

What you fail to recognize is that reductio ad absurdum isn't actually a logical fallacy in any way. Unless you can actually draw a distinction between the stance that you're arguing and the absurd example, you remain wrong. You said that change was always healthy for the metagame- I gave you clear examples of that being wrong. Erego, you have to show a distinction between the changes that you consider healthy and those that you consider unhealthy. What would Black Lotus do to the format that Flash doesn't, that makes the former unacceptable and the latter acceptable? Would it mean that games were over turns 1-2? Would it give decks amazing speed and consistency? In what way do you draw a distinction here? What's your criteria for what makes a card bannable, if Flash doesn't meet it? Is it just the price tag? Is that it? Because that would be an argument for the Lotus and Moxen, but we could then take Tolarian Academy, Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker and Sol Ring off the list no problem. Would that be okay with you?

Wobbles The Goose

05-07-2007, 03:31 AM

FoW aggro-control is unhealthy for this format, but not because it's unbeatable. It's unhealthy because the decks that do beat it with any degree of consistency are required to run certain colors and very specific cards in those colors, which is quite clearly a major distortion of the metagame.

FoW aggro-control decks are singificantly above the power level of every other strategy in the format. It can be beaten. This thesis is extremely hard to refute or defend because these decks comes in myriad forms, and each build can have a great deal of variance in speed, protection, and disruption package. While some builds may lose to a certain deck, another might in fact do very well against it. The deck is very clearly not unbeatable, because several builds have been played at recent GPT's and have not succeeded in winning or even placing in the Top 8 at those tournaments.

I don't mean for these points to detract from the obvious: this deck's inherent power level forces a very narrow set of card choices from which to create a viable deck, and that is very bad for the format. This will almost certainly get worse with the inclusion of cards from Future Sight. However, Force of Will is not invincible, it does not completely remove skill from the game, and it does not completely invalidate every single other deck. Just most of them.

IBA boiled all the different Flash lists into Lands, 3x Hulk, 3x Flash, 4x FoW, 4x Brainstorm. All of the other dedicated hate decks are similarly running 4x Brainstorm and 4x FoW. To me this suggests that the kill condition is largely arbitrary, as the power level for force of will and brainstorm are so off kilter for this format and basically every other format in which they have been legal. The presence of force of will in the format is really the larger problem because it allows decisions about what to allow in a format to become sloppy on the logic that Force of Will keeps degenerate decks in check. In the end you wind up with the sort of format Legacy has dealt with from the beginning: Force of Will vs. Force of Will. Now, certainly some decks have positive matches over, say, threshold, but IBA's logic that minor modifications to Flash completely change match ups holds just as true of FoW aggro-control. To that end most of the Flash combo decks have about as much in common to Eon Blue Apoc as EBA does to UGW Thresh. Most forms of flash combo plays like a fish deck with a better match up against aggro and a worse match in the "mirror".

It's confusing as to why mtg.com hasn't published anything about Flash. It's not that players "deserve" a response, but rather that it's expected with changes of this magnitude. Time vault got an Ask Wizards before the change to explain it, Karmic Guide/CitP errata got mentioned in articles before and after the change, and they provide explanation about B&R changes both when the change is made and on the following Friday. Hopefully, the eventual article will also discuss the effect of Force of Will strongly warping the format and what, if anything, will be done about it.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-07-2007, 03:41 AM

For the record, here's the decklist that you mentioned went undefeated against Flash.

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Plains

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Swords to Plowshares

It's pretty good. I have some suggestions as to how to make it better, though.

First, we remove some of the more vulnerable lands, replacing them with a more robust mana base:

-4 Trops
-4 Tundras
-1 Plains
+4 Island
+3 Underground Sea
+1 Swamp
We're going to use that free slot in a bit.

Now, we take these kill conditions, which have to lose summoning sickness, enter the red zone, and expose themselves to all sorts of problems, with stronger kill conditions:

-4 Werebear
-4 Nimble Mongoose
-4 Meddling Mage
-1 Mystic Enforcer

Ready? Now we're going to make our deck Wrath of God and Swords to Plowshares proof.

+4 Flash
+4 Protean Hulk
+2 Body Snatcher
+1 Carrion Feeder
+1 Benevolent Bodyguard
+1 Kiki-Jiki
+1 Karmic Guide

We don't need Threshold, either, so let's replace that crappy Mental Note with something that gives us card selection. Now, we could stick at the 1cc slot, but I feel like expanding the curve a little bit for some extra power.

-4 Mental Note
+4 Lim-Dul's Vault.

Swords to Plowshares and Stifle seem narrow for what we want; we don't need to clear away blockers, after all, and we want to be a bit more proactive.

-4 StP
-3 Stifle
+4 Duress
+2 Echoing Truth

That leaves us with one free slot. Just for fun, let's make it, oh, Damnation. In case we get in a jam.

While the first version of Threshold was good, I think our finished list has some obviously superior qualities.

Wobbles The Goose

05-07-2007, 03:54 AM

While the first version of Threshold was good, I think our finished list has some obviously superior qualities.

With the first list, the player can feel like they are "going rogue" and really fighting the system by not playing the obvious choice. That psychological advantage is worth at least a round or two.

frogboy

05-07-2007, 04:18 AM

From now on I'm just going to defer to whatever Zilla says.

Zilla

05-07-2007, 04:32 AM

IBA boiled all the different Flash lists into Lands, 3x Hulk, 3x Flash, 4x FoW, 4x Brainstorm.
I'm really confused. You quoted my post (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=129862&postcount=120) and then made it sound like IBA said it. I also boiled down all Flash lists into the cards you listed in this post (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=129291&postcount=52). Are you confusing me with IBA or is he saying identical things and I'm just unaware of it?

Belgareth

05-07-2007, 05:14 AM

Flash is unhealthy for this format, but not because it's unbeatable. That is a myth. It's not because an 8 year old can play it, because that also is a myth. It's unhealthy because the decks that do beat it with any degree of consistency are required to run certain colors and very specific cards in those colors, which is quite clearly a major distortion of the metagame.

The Flash combo is singificantly above the power level of every other strategy in the format. It can be beaten. This thesis is extremely hard to refute or defend because the combo comes in myriad forms, and each build can have a great deal of variance in speed, protection, and actual execution of the combo. While some builds may lose to a certain deck, another might in fact do very well against it. The deck is very clearly not unbeatable, because several builds have been played at recent GPT's and have not succeeded in winning or even placing in the Top 8 at those tournaments.

The Flash combo can be hard to play correctly. An 8 year old will absolutely not do as well with the deck as a seasoned adult player. Assertions to the contrary hurt your credibility, because it's strongly indicative of not having tested with it at all. The faster builds are certainly easier to play than the slower and more controlling builds. They are easier to play because they require less choices, simply because they have less choices actually available to them. This lack of choices makes them inherently weaker against decks designed to stop their combo. The more controlling builds are much more difficult to play, especially in the face of dedicated hate. The mirror match is also, contrary to what you might believe, extremely difficult and skill-intensive.

I don't mean for these points to detract from the obvious: this deck's inherent power level forces a very narrow set of card choices from which to create a viable deck, and that is very bad for the format. This will almost certainly get worse with the inclusion of cards from Future Sight. However, Flash is not invincible, it does not completely remove skill from the game, and it does not completely invalidate every single other deck. Just most of them.

This shit severely shakes up the format and does in fact ruin several months' worth of hard work and preparation by dedicated players of this format, which is very unfortunate indeed. However, the GP will still be a contest of skill and preparedness, despite the relative unfairness of this combo. As soon as it has had the opportunity to prove itself as unfair and broken as most people realize it is, action will be taken and the format will return to its former state of normalcy.

Wise words indeed.
I didn't intend the 8 year old analogy to go so far (despite the fact I did say a skilled 8 year old).
Rather than you guys constantly going on ego trips and using personal attacks which get you nowhere fast.
IBA, Machinus, Hi-val , your all somewhat good players respected in different areas of the format but the arrogance and fighting is going to get you nowhere.

Yes teams by and large do use underhandedness/psychological advantage etc to give them an edge.
This usually comes down to insecurity about their chances of winning, so instead of arguing over this just ignore it (it's their problem).

Anyone who reads any legacy (indeed any magic) forum will be aware of flash combo.
Wether it be the Hulk Flash (fast) or (slow) list , it is still exceptionally hard to deal with.
Instead of just constantly arguing about playtesting data (which really depends on builds and players), why not both sides agree that flash is indeed very powerful and that wotc won't do anything till after GP (this is what nearly every judge I have spoken to has assured me).

Now the choices become simple, you can either work on flash and remove even the slightest chance your opponent can hate it out, or work on the hate deck and try improve on 50-50.

All those people claiming 90-10 versus Hulk-flash with threshold or even Fish are either really bad liers or really lucky with opponents.

No deck as far as I'm aware can ever put up 90-10 consistently without being a pure hate deck and even then it's touch and go.
Top decks, mulligans etc all play a vital part to this game (which still has a huge luck element), so you will always lose some matchups you think you should win.

Flash has had one bad effect, worse than it's effect on the upcoming GP is it's effect on the community.
People threatening to quit over it , people fighting over other peoples skill, I thought we were all above this kind of thing.

@Hi-val: I mean this in the nicest way, but stop playing devil's advocate.
I know you know the extent of flash, I also know you are aware your winding up people with your posts.
Yes I find the flash format interesting, but it's unhealthy.
An oncologist wouldn't go around arguing cancer is great and we should stop trying to find a cure, but they still find it interesting.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-07-2007, 05:17 AM

It's true that Godzilla and I are easily confused. For Comparison (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgqbCq_sxmo). I'm the one on the left.

outsideangel

05-07-2007, 05:51 AM

It's true that Godzilla and I are easily confused. For Comparison (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgqbCq_sxmo). I'm the one on the left.

Ha ha. Jack loves weiners.

Wobbles The Goose

05-07-2007, 09:58 AM

From now on I'm just going to defer to whatever Zilla says, but pretend IBA said it.

kirdape3

05-07-2007, 05:27 PM

Dougstar, everytime you fight with an Elgin, god kills a kitten. Please, think of the kittens. Not because you're not right, but because they will never accept that you are right. This is the most buzz I've seen about Legacy in awhile.

Chris, skill will in fact be on display at the Grand Prix. Flash is not a trivial deck to play well at all. That's not saying that it isn't degenerate, but it's not easy to maximize the degeneracy around the hate. Any idiot can put together Flash and Protean Hulk, but try having it do something versus Meddling Mage, Leyline of the Void, Stifle/Trickbind, and the normal counterspell suites of most of the competent decks in the format.

What the real problem then becomes is that Legacy just became a complete battle of broken decks versus anti-broken decks; Vintage-lite. Any 'fair' deck had better have a plan to combat Flash and CRET Belcher or just not bother showing up. Rather than being 1999 Extended as the closest analogue (in-between the High Tide and Trix disasters; the PT Chicago era), the current analogue is modern Vintage. That's the disaster that's close to happening anyways because Belcher and Ill-Gotten Gains are not anywhere near to being fair decks if Flash is killed, but Flash put it out into the limelight in a huge way.

hi-val

05-07-2007, 06:04 PM

IBA, I certainly know what a reductio ad absurdum is, and that's why I conceded the argument to you. I'm in agreement with you. I know that the reductio is not a logical fallacy-- in fact, it's one of the best arguments to use in logic, philosophy and mathematics because it relies on the most integral part of all three, the property of non-contradiction. Its a favorite argument tactic for me personally. We're on the same page here, and I agree with you that change isn't always healthy.

Chris: you want some real constructive ideas? How about we make Flash as good as it can be so that the DCI will take steps to remove it when the opportunity arises. How about we become skilled with the deck, tune it well, work on beating hate, etc. All of that would be more constructive than calling for an emergency ban that will not happen two weeks before an event. And Rian is right: skill will be king. Playskill and deck building skill. Good Flash decks will rise to the top because of skilled players, while bad builds will fall away because of their inferiority, in spite of the Flash combo.

Yes teams by and large do use underhandedness/psychological advantage etc to give them an edge.
This usually comes down to insecurity about their chances of winning, so instead of arguing over this just ignore it (it's their problem).

Well, our team uses superior playskill and deckbuilding to win instead of trying to mise wins off making people nervous. If someone freaks out that they're playing Kevin Cron, it's their problem and not anything he did (aside from eating a car once). I'm being honest here when I say that my team is testing Flash and we are testing effective counter-strategies to Flash. If you think that's metagame manipulation or being nefarious or whatever, I really don't know what to say.

stop pretending your team doesn't engage in the misleading tactics, unsporstmanlike conduct, and egotistical forum behaviour that it does.

Find me ONE instance of anyone on my team engaging in unsportsmanlike conduct. Find me ONE FUCKING INSTANCE. That's a serious accusation and if you're sure that we engage in it, there must be examples. I'd like to see one or I'd like to see your apology for serious slander.

Misleading tactics? Like not running Snow-covered Island in Gifts? I have no idea what you're saying, and again, if we engage in it, I'm sure there's proof that you can show me or PM to me.

Regarding egotistical forum behavior, I'm sure you're referring to Steve here and not the team at large. Despite appearances, we do have more people on the team than him.

Anyway, test Flash or test against it because there's little use kvetching about it.

Also, haven't there been regionals (I'm thinking 2003 here?) where a new set became legal just a week or two before the actual event? Regionals this year will have FS legal for what, two weeks before it's out? Somehow I think there's an analog here-- Wizards doesn't mind completely shaking things up weeks before events. I'm aware that we weren't warned about Flash, so it's not a perfect analogy, but perhaps worth some thought.

SpatulaOfTheAges

05-07-2007, 06:14 PM

All of that would be more constructive than calling for an emergency ban that will not happen two weeks before an event.

What's the grounding for that assumption? Is it that they don't want to shake up the format right before a major event?[/sarcasm]

Or is it that they won't do anything because they're ignoring the legitimate grievances of players, and a combo that's obviously more busted than half the Banned list, on the basis that it's not June 1 yet?

If the DCI, and people who play this format, are willing to let banning decorum destroy our only major tournament each year, then I'd like a good fucking reason that they deserve anything but ridicule.

Anusien

05-07-2007, 06:41 PM

What's the grounding for that assumption? Is it that they don't want to shake up the format right before a major event?[/sarcasm]

Or is it that they won't do anything because they're ignoring the legitimate grievances of players, and a combo that's obviously more busted than half the Banned list, on the basis that it's not June 1 yet?

If the DCI, and people who play this format, are willing to let banning decorum destroy our only major tournament each year, then I'd like a good fucking reason that they deserve anything but ridicule.
I find it amusing that the numbers Flash is putting up into GPT and major tournament Top 8s are only 1-2 per T8 when double or triple that number of Flash decks show up to each tournament. And at least half the time, Flash isn't winning. Now either the deck is harder to pilot/build than people claim (proving it's not destroying Legacy) or the deck isn't as amazing as people claim (proving it's not destroying Legacy). From where I see it, it's making players stop playing unsophisticated decks like Angel Stompy (no offense, but monocolored aggro decks that don't combo off feel rather poor in the long run) and make them start running multicolored, hybridized aggro-control decks.

In other words, Flash made people start running *good* decks that disrupt the opponent.

MattH

05-07-2007, 06:44 PM

Flash is not good for this format. As has been stated before in this thread, an 8-year old could come to the same conclusion. To disagree is not an "opinion" as you say - its either malice or dishonesty. It could also be genuine ignorance but I don't think that is the case here.

That is not something that "has been stated," YOU stated it. Quit trying to hide behind the passive voice.

People need a new perspective on this. Take it as a monthlong break from playing legacy, and instead playing some new format which bears a passing resemblance to Legacy. The deck, if it's so great, will be gone in a month, and you can go back to playing the legacy you were playing two weeks ago.

Even if you hate the "new format," so what? I've gone six weeks without playing Magic before and you can too.

Rastadon

05-07-2007, 06:55 PM

From where I see it, it's making players stop playing unsophisticated decks like Angel Stompy (no offense, but monocolored aggro decks that don't combo off feel rather poor in the long run) and make them start running multicolored, hybridized aggro-control decks.

In other words, Flash made people start running *good* decks that disrupt the opponent.

You're right on some level, but man I think that's an understatement. Goblins was one of those monocolored aggro decks. And sure they can adapt with the times, but what's happening here is a complete annihilation of aggro. 4 Cabal Therapies just don't cut it anymore. If goblins or any other aggro deck wants to compete here, they better pack 12 cards worth of disruption, and at that point it's not even aggro anymore, it's aggro/control.

Matth: It's not as simple as that. There's a lot of people who've been perfecting their pet decks for an entire year, waiting for this moment. You can treat it as a hiatus but that's one unideal time for a vacation.

If they had done the same right before the TML, do you think it would have had the same effect?

troopatroop

05-07-2007, 06:59 PM

I find it amusing that the numbers Flash is putting up into GPT and major tournament Top 8s are only 1-2 per T8 when double or triple that number of Flash decks show up to each tournament. And at least half the time, Flash isn't winning. Now either the deck is harder to pilot/build than people claim (proving it's not destroying Legacy) or the deck isn't as amazing as people claim (proving it's not destroying Legacy). From where I see it, it's making players stop playing unsophisticated decks like Angel Stompy (no offense, but monocolored aggro decks that don't combo off feel rather poor in the long run) and make them start running multicolored, hybridized aggro-control decks.

In other words, Flash made people start running *good* decks that disrupt the opponent.

You mean good decks like Confinement Slide? I'm always feeling tons of disruption from that deck. /Sarcasm.

You're really just wrong on your statistics. Alot of GPTs have had like 14 people and 1 Flash deck. Flash won Mr.Nipples a GPT. Flash has had considerably less time to do damage to the format than you seem to consider, and despite what most people think here it's still a very unestabished deck that many people are completely unaware of. Saying "Then why isn't Flash winning everything?" is inherantly flawed because theres alot to go into that. People have to put it together before they can wreck with it, which I know I'm in the process of doing, so I couldn't play the deck yet if I wanted to.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-07-2007, 06:59 PM

In other words, Flash made people start running *good* decks that disrupt the opponent.

1) I don't know how many times I can go over this. You might think a format where everyone has to run Duress and Force of Will to compete is fine and dandy. Most people don't. Force of Will should not be a mandatory card for entrance into the format. I hate to tell you this, but most people don't avoid Vintage because of the budget, or because it's "too skill intensive", but because it's simply a dumb format that turns the game into something dumb. People don't like randomly like losing to coin flip draws and only getting one or two turns in a game. People don't like the only colors of Magic being Black, Blue, and Brown.

2) You would have a hard time finding a popular Legacy deck before this that didn't disrupt the opponent. Goblins could go after a mana base and creatures, Threshold countered spells and packed creature kill and Needles, Solidarity had Force and Remand, even TES had Xantid Swarm. What we didn't have was an absolute requirement to run Force and Duress in order to have any shot of winning. You seem to be implying that this is a good thing, but I would argue that that is simply because you don't actually know or care much about the format.

3) It seems like it would be more accurate to say, "Flash made people all start maindecking Leylines, running 4 Stifles, and doing other silly things to try and hate it out in a panick. Flash still made a significant impact through this hate, with the rest of the format seemingly made up of various Aggro-Control decks and CRET Belcher."

4) This is besides the fact that these lists are far from optimized, and that at the Richmond GPT, for instance, one reason Flash didn't show up more in the top 8 was that they kept playing each other in the Swiss. And they still won the tournament.

Xero

05-07-2007, 07:06 PM

In other words, Flash made people start running *good* decks that disrupt the opponent.

I totally agree with IBA on this. You honestly think Legacy is a better format post Hulk-Flash? I'd much rather play in a diverse field (in which decks like Angel Stompy can do well) than one in which you basically have to play one of two decks.

Bardo

05-07-2007, 07:10 PM

Even if you hate the "new format," so what? I've gone six weeks without playing Magic before and you can too.

While I agree, I'm also sympathetic to Spatula and others' side of things: the timing could seriously not be worse. But I'm honestly not of the "sky's falling" opinion. It'll shake some shit up and if cooler heads determine that Flash should be banned, so be it; if not, ditto.

The hype machine is really in "hyper-hype" mode at the moment--the whole echo chamber effect. Against many different incarnations of the deck in the past couple of weeks, I've beat it more than I've lost.

troopatroop

05-07-2007, 07:22 PM

The hype machine is really in "hyper-hype" mode at the moment--the whole echo chamber effect. Against many different incarnations of the deck in the past couple of weeks, I've beat it more than I've lost.

It doesn't matter whether or not you can win against it. We've established that Fish and Control can beat it. The problem lies in that nothing else can. Belcher was fine for the format because it's not like it could run 8 Counterspells and a stable manabase. Flash can, and we're facing an inevitable Rock Paper Scissors.

That's. Not. Healthy.

Bardo

05-07-2007, 07:34 PM

It doesn't matter whether or not you can win against it. We've established that Fish and Control can beat it. The problem lies in that nothing else can. Belcher was fine for the format because it's not like it could run 8 Counterspells and a stable manabase. Flash can, and we're facing an inevitable Rock Paper Scissors.

That's. Not. Healthy.

I considered removing the last paragraph from my post altogether, for fear of this kind of response, but I'll just take this head on.

It does matter that you and I can beat it. Also, R-P-S formats are not, in themselves, inherently bad for the game. Basically, I'd just like to see some hard data to see that the sky is falling, and I'm sure the DCI is looking for the same thing and have been silent accordingly.

It is extremely unfortunate that the GP has to be the Hulk Flash test case, and not something like 4-5 months of SCG events or whatever.

Phantom

05-07-2007, 09:23 PM

People need a new perspective on this. Take it as a monthlong break from playing legacy, and instead playing some new format which bears a passing resemblance to Legacy. The deck, if it's so great, will be gone in a month, and you can go back to playing the legacy you were playing two weeks ago.

Even if you hate the "new format," so what? I've gone six weeks without playing Magic before and you can too.

What you're missing here, at least in my view, is how much the Legacy community was looking forward to the GP. We rarely get big events with a pool of competent and competitive players from a large geographic area.

I had no plans of playing in the GP, but it would both build our format, and give us testing data we cannot get elsewhere. I had a ton of questions going into this:

What were Pros going to play? Any new creations ALA Homebrew?
Was Goblins still King?
Was Solidarity on its way out?
Does TES live up to the hype?
Will FS, Red Death, and Enchantress continue their rise to tier 1?
Can any Legacy players compete with pros?
Etc.

Now we will walk away from the GP with virtually no answers to those questions. We will have learned what does well in a format that is likely to exist for the span of two months. Some might find this interesting, and I do not fault them, but don't fault me when I find this to be a terrible fucking use of the biggest Legacy event of the year.

It does matter that you and I can beat it. Also, R-P-S formats are not, in themselves, inherently bad for the game. Basically, I'd just like to see some hard data to see that the sky is falling, and I'm sure the DCI is looking for the same thing and have been silent accordingly.

It is extremely unfortunate that the GP has to be the Hulk Flash test case, and not something like 4-5 months of SCG events or whatever.

All of this is well said especially the last part. My only addition to the R-P-S comment is that clearly that's not what people come to Legacy for, right?

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-07-2007, 09:49 PM

Calling it a Rock-Paper-Scissors metagame assumes a meta that doesn't exist. Well, that's always the case; there's never really been a RPS metagame in the history of the game, but especiall in this case, you're ignoring the actual issue.

Decks like Goblins smash the hate decks and get utterly annihilated by Hulk-Flash.
Hate gets smashed by Goblins, and has a decent game against Hulk Flash.
Hulk-Flash beats a lot of the so-called "hate" decks, smashes the fuck out of random decks, and has a marginally bad matchup, at worst, against the better "hate" decks.

It's not RPS the game; it's RPS like real life, where paper doesn't actually beat rock, because it's a fucking rock.

Machinus

05-07-2007, 10:45 PM

Chris, skill will in fact be on display at the Grand Prix. Flash is not a trivial deck to play well at all. That's not saying that it isn't degenerate, but it's not easy to maximize the degeneracy around the hate. Any idiot can put together Flash and Protean Hulk, but try having it do something versus Meddling Mage, Leyline of the Void, Stifle/Trickbind, and the normal counterspell suites of most of the competent decks in the format.

I agree that skill is still relevant here. But no matter how much you test and tune these decks, it will never be relevant enough to call the format dynamic and healthy. This combo is just too good, and the luck of the draw will significantly overshadow the innovation used to evade the ubiquitous hate prepared for it (which is already an indication of serious problems).

How about we make Flash as good as it can be so that the DCI will take steps to remove it when the opportunity arises. How about we become skilled with the deck, tune it well, work on beating hate, etc. All of that would be more constructive than calling for an emergency ban that will not happen two weeks before an event.

I don't think it is likely that the DCI is going to emergency ban Flash, but it still certainly possible and remains a very reasonable and intelligent thing to do. I also think that it's impossible that they will NOT to ban it by on June first. Therefore it's important to make an attempt to point out the destructive effects the DCI's negligence has had on the format.

The community itself is disturbingly unresponsive to this misfortune. That's something that needs addressing as well.

People need a new perspective on this. Take it as a monthlong break from playing legacy, and instead playing some new format which bears a passing resemblance to Legacy. The deck, if it's so great, will be gone in a month, and you can go back to playing the legacy you were playing two weeks ago.

Even if you hate the "new format," so what? I've gone six weeks without playing Magic before and you can too.

I'm not sure how you can call yourself a serious Legacy player if you are apathetic about the first GP in 1.5 years being degenerate and irrelevant, instead of an innovative and skillful time for the format. If you can put down the format at it's most exciting time, why do you even care about this discussion?

MattH

05-08-2007, 12:59 AM

While I agree, I'm also sympathetic to Spatula and others' side of things

What you're missing here, at least in my view, is how much the Legacy community was looking forward to the GP.

To be honest, I am sympathetic too, but I thought I'd go too far in the other direction to try and provide some balance. I recognize that it's far from an ideal situation but I am simply reminding people that it is only temporary and if you try to consider it from another angle, it can be a fun experience instead of the huge festering shit lagoon people are making it out to be. No, it wasn't what we wanted, but you can make the best out of a less-than-ideal situation, or you can compete to see who can complain the most. At the end of the day, you only ruin your own good time by throwing a hissy fit.

Naturally, my post is completely wrong if they don't ban Flash in the June B&R update. So there's that.

The community itself is disturbingly unresponsive to this misfortune. That's something that needs addressing as well.

I'm not sure how you can call yourself a serious Legacy player if you are apathetic about the first GP in 1.5 years being degenerate and irrelevant, instead of an innovative and skillful time for the format. If you can put down the format at it's most exciting time, why do you even care about this discussion?
No one's ever good enough for you, are they? They just don't understand as well as you do. If only they would listen to their betters. They should count themselves lucky to have you around.
...
Fuck that noise. If you CAN'T put this format down for a few weeks, you need to reevaluate your life. I am a serious player because I play to win, I play to the best of my ability, I build and test and tweak decks, and I engage in the occasional legacy-related side project like TMD's traditional Predictions Contest. Step down off your self-appointed throne as Legacy's Protector and pull your head out of your ass before you go completely off the deep end.

Machinus

05-08-2007, 10:51 AM

Fuck that noise. If you CAN'T put this format down for a few weeks, you need to reevaluate your life. I am a serious player because I play to win, I play to the best of my ability, I build and test and tweak decks, and I engage in the occasional legacy-related side project like TMD's traditional Predictions Contest. Step down off your self-appointed throne as Legacy's Protector and pull your head out of your ass before you go completely off the deep end.

I'm glad I'm doing that job instead of someone with your attitude and narrow vision. The DCI's current policy threatens the future of the format.

If you're fine with things being fubar, them by all means go away until they are fixed.

Mulletus

05-08-2007, 10:59 AM

I like that "duck and over" attitude too.

Or maybe it's like the last guy who decided that pants were a good idea, " I fear change ... I'll keep my bushes"

Bardo

05-08-2007, 11:22 AM

The DCI's current policy threatens the future of the format.

Doesn't their current policy boil down to: "We don't errata for power reasons; we ban stuff if things are out of control?" If so, that seems like a solid policy. Unless you're objecting to the timing?

As for the "future," Standard and Extended has dealt with far worse shit than this, and they came through similar catastrophes just fine.

Personally, I like how things have gotten shaken up. The format needed something like this; provided things aren't so shaken up that people stop playing the format--which I doubt.

Silverdragon

05-08-2007, 11:58 AM

Doesn't their current policy boil down to: "We don't errata for power reasons; we ban stuff if things are out of control?" If so, that seems like a solid policy. Unless you're objecting to the timing?

As for the "future," Standard and Extended has dealt with far worse shit than this, and they came through similar catastrophes just fine.

Personally, I like how things have gotten shaken up. The format needed something like this; provided things aren't so shaken up that people stop playing the format--which I doubt.

Standard and Extended survived similar catastrophes because a) Cards rotated out of the format or b) Cards got banned.
Flash will not rotate out of Legacy so we have to hope for a ban.
Right now I know several people that have or will quit to play Legacy until Flash is gone.
Finally I agree that the timing for the re-erata was really bad. Basically it means months of preparation for the GP gone to waste because you should just play Flash.

C.P.

05-08-2007, 12:16 PM

Personally, I like how things have gotten shaken up. The format needed something like this; provided things aren't so shaken up that people stop playing the format--which I doubt.

The format where you have to black or blue to win is not something I would like. Shaking up the format is good, but when that shakeup makes other colors marginal, how good is it?

Peter_Rotten

05-08-2007, 03:23 PM

I had no plans of playing in the GP, but it would both build our format, and give us testing data we cannot get elsewhere. I had a ton of questions going into this:

What were Pros going to play? Any new creations ALA Homebrew?
Was Goblins still King?
Was Solidarity on its way out?
Does TES live up to the hype?
Will FS, Red Death, and Enchantress continue their rise to tier 1?
Can any Legacy players compete with pros?
Etc.

I too had those same questions. Now my only questions for the GP are the following:

1. Will Hulk Flash live up to its hype?
2. What builds of Hulk Flash will T8?
3. Do the Pros even know about the deck?

troopatroop

05-08-2007, 03:28 PM

Sims

05-08-2007, 03:57 PM

This is the thing, if Flash doesn't win the entire thing, I doubt anything will be changed. I could certainly see two top 8 showings, maybe 1 top 2, and goblins/thresh winning the tournament.

What happends if it doesn't win. With legal pacts, wont everything get worse?

Likely. We have to take some form of solace in the fact that even putting multiple decks into the top 8 or 16, as long as the card shows some form of warping in the format they will take a look at it. Skullclamp is a good example, as when it was legal in type 2 you either played it (easier because it was able to be run in any deck with some x/1s and x/2's) or you had answers for it. While flash cannot be played in EVERY deck, the decks out there will have to be tuned to beat it. Even if Goblins wins the tournament, beating flash in the finals, I think it'll be a telling sign when that Goblin deck has 4x Leyline of the Void's maindecked with a heavy black splash for discard. At that point, the DCI will simply have to stand up and take notice, because unlike things like Goblin Lackey or the (banned but hateable) Dragon, it's more difficult to splash answers for Flash without completely overhauling the deck you are trying to tune.

AnwarA101

05-08-2007, 04:07 PM

URABAHN

05-08-2007, 04:30 PM

Goblins winning the tournament? Seriously? I mean if it runs Leyline of the Void, Cabal Therapy, and maybe Duress. It might still not beat Flash. Goblins itself is having to run maindeck hate just so that its not a joke. People thought Goblin Lackey was distorting because he required an answer, but as far as I know Goblin Lackey never won the game on turn 1 or turn 2.

Y'know, the card Flash doesn't win the game on Turn 1 or Turn 2 either. The card Flash combined with Protean Hulk combined with DotV or Kiki-Jiki combined with...I think y'all get the point.

I'm not about to tell you that the card Flash is in the same league as Goblin Lackey, but you can (and people have) drawn parallels. That little green man is always on my mind in playtesting (gotta try to keep a hand that'll answer a Lackey) or in a real tournament (gotta try to keep a hand that'll answer a Lackey). If Goblin Lackey hits you even once, there are very few decks that see regular play in Legacy that can answer the kind of beatdown his friends can bring down upon your head.

Flash combo decks as we know it should get the axe June 1st. I hope like hell Goblin Lackey does too.

kirdape3

05-08-2007, 04:39 PM

Nick Eisel wrote an article for SCG on Flash, so it's likely that people know about it.

AnwarA101

05-08-2007, 04:45 PM

Y'know, the card Flash doesn't win the game on Turn 1 or Turn 2 either. The card Flash combined with Protean Hulk combined with DotV or Kiki-Jiki combined with...I think y'all get the point.

I'm not about to tell you that the card Flash is in the same league as Goblin Lackey, but you can (and people have) drawn parallels. That little green man is always on my mind in playtesting (gotta try to keep a hand that'll answer a Lackey) or in a real tournament (gotta try to keep a hand that'll answer a Lackey). If Goblin Lackey hits you even once, there are very few decks that see regular play in Legacy that can answer the kind of beatdown his friends can bring down upon your head.

Flash combo decks as we know it should get the axe June 1st. I hope like hell Goblin Lackey does too.

The presence of Goblin Lackey didn't prevent decks like TES, Boros, Zoo, Belcher, or Survival, or even Psychatog from finishing in the Top2 in the last 3 major tournaments. We'll have to see if Flash is so generous to the format when it sees play at GP Columbus.

Awesomator

05-08-2007, 05:14 PM

Flash decks just aren't as good as people think. Flash messes with the format, but with it's presence known, it can be dealt with. I've been testing with and against Flash Post and Pre Future Sight, and I think people are making a big deal out of basically nothing. It changes the decks we play or the sideboard cards we use, but there are still tier 1 decks. Hulk doesn't just rape everything. On that note, I hope Hulk Flash stays after June 1st.

Machinus

05-08-2007, 06:45 PM

Doesn't their current policy boil down to: "We don't errata for power reasons; we ban stuff if things are out of control?" If so, that seems like a solid policy. Unless you're objecting to the timing?

As for the "future," Standard and Extended has dealt with far worse shit than this, and they came through similar catastrophes just fine.

Personally, I like how things have gotten shaken up. The format needed something like this; provided things aren't so shaken up that people stop playing the format--which I doubt.

These points have already been addressed.

Even if that was their policy, it would be grossly insufficient for the circumstances that exist now. The GP isn't any less screwed because they only checked R&D's cards and not the Rules cards. They have just as much responsibility there.

That's not their policy. They didn't ban Mind over Matter because it was broken. They looked at it for three seconds and decided they didn't want to worry about it. How many seconds would it take a WotC employee to figure out this would wreck shit?

The changes are haven't "shaken up" the format. Legacy as we knew it does not exist anymore.

If they had given it any thought, there would be a relevant tournament happening this month. Right now, the policy isn't what you have stated. It's "Legacy? Oh yeah, how's that going?"

Zilla

05-08-2007, 06:52 PM

The GP isn't any less screwed because they only checked R&D's cards and not the Rules cards.
You repeatedly state that the GP is screwed as though it is fact. It is not. It is opinion based on your personal criteria for what a tournament should be. Although the combo is extremely broken and should be banned in the long term because of how badly it warps the format, it will not prevent the GP from being a contest of deckbuilding, playskill, preparation, and metagame predicition. The fundamentals of the game still exist in the current metagame, and as such the GP will not be undisputably "screwed" as you keep insisting. I do think that the format will be screwed if the combo remains legal on the long term, but that's not what this thread is about.

Rastadon

05-08-2007, 07:22 PM

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-08-2007, 08:00 PM

Here's an idea: If you want legacy back the way it was, refuse to play Hulk Flash. Make it a house rule at your local store to ban Flash. I can't see why anyone should treat WotC's errata as the word of God. It's not like they do you any favors. The only time they pay attention to Legacy is to change the flavor, they only sanction one big tournament per year, they can't even do that....and you're still loyal to them?

Take matters into your own hands.

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

Unfortunately, Flash is clearly a case of making the metagame unfun. The only tension is in not knowing what builds of Flash will end up winning at the tournament, and whether or not the hate decks will be sufficient to plow through. After the tournament itself, there won't be a reason in the world not to ban the combo.

Rastadon

05-08-2007, 08:29 PM

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

Unfortunately, Flash is clearly a case of making the metagame unfun. The only tension is in not knowing what builds of Flash will end up winning at the tournament, and whether or not the hate decks will be sufficient to plow through. After the tournament itself, there won't be a reason in the world not to ban the combo.

Good article.

If you want to go that road and play the same three games of magic over and over with little variation be my guest. If The Source is a reflection of the legacy scene, expect the new and developmental boards to get deleted soon, along with the open legacy discussion forum; it's just going to be Fish, Goblins and Hulk in the Legacy metagame forum and that's it.

If refusing to participate in that makes me a scrub, then I'll gladly accept being a scrub.

Happy Gilmore

05-08-2007, 09:02 PM

Good article.

If you want to go that road and play the same three games of magic over and over with little variation be my guest. If The Source is a reflection of the legacy scene, expect the new and developmental boards to get deleted soon, along with the open legacy discussion forum; it's just going to be Fish, Goblins and Hulk in the Legacy metagame forum and that's it.

If refusing to participate in that makes me a scrub, then I'll gladly accept being a scrub.

Not playing at GP Columbus and not telling the DCI/Wizards about the degeneracy of Flash will NOT get Flash banned. If you want the DCI to listen you have to give them results. That means playing the deck, winning with it, and making your oppinion known. The hands off aproach has never worked with MTG before. But to each his own, no one is forcing you.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-08-2007, 09:08 PM

I very rarely say this, but Dominic's right. What would you gain by refusing to participate in this metagame? Even assuming that you got a large number of players to agree with you, and they weren't all slaughtered by the people playing Hulk-Flash, what message would you send? That Hulk-Flash is healthy. Conversely, if you participate in this metagame, you will (presumably) be one of those helping to prove the point that it is warping the format, and thus able to actually change policy... instead of wasting time and money getting dominated by someone playing a much more powerful format than you.

tivadar

05-08-2007, 09:21 PM

You know, if you really want to make a statement, we should have as many people as possible show up at the GP wearing a shirt that says something along the lines of "Flashing Sucks" (and yes, I'm thinking of having a pseudo-fun picture on the reverse side). It doesn't matter if you're playing it or not, just show that you're not supporting it, and that you don't appreciate it. People play what wins, you can't blame them for that, but that doesn't mean they have to like it.

Shall I visit my local shirt visiting site? I made an awesome "Drop that Zero and get with a Hero" shirt with Hiro Nakamura's picture for Heroes, I'm sure I can get something made for this...

Rastadon

05-08-2007, 09:58 PM

I didn't mean boycotting them or anything like that, because that idea is so bad that's it's laughable. Without the support of the legacy community and their yearly five hundred dollars in sales, what will they do?!

I was saying that if people really objected to Hulk Flash in the mean time, we could just run our own tournaments and screw the rules. Not in an act of defiance; just banning the card ourselves until they ban it. Everyone who liked legacy the way it was could continue playing and simply ignore what everyone else is doing, and everyone who likes legacy now can do that too. Just offering solutions for those who don't like the way things are now.

I do like the t-shirts idea. Or even something simpler, like making a tally with a sharpie on your arm for every time Flash wins on turns 1-2 with counter/discard backup.

Atwa

05-09-2007, 12:20 AM

Ok, it's official now. Legacy is screwed at the GP:

Q: Flash and Protean Hulk now make a combo that's one heck of an elephant in the Legacy room, and I fear for GP–Columbus. Are there any plans to fix this at the last second before the Grand Prix?
–Kevin, Iowa USA

A: From Aaron Forsythe, Director of Magic R&D:

We will be sticking to the normal Banned & Restricted list update schedule; as a rule, we do not ban cards at other times. You can read Randy Buehler's old article Extended Thoughts for more insights into the B&R policy and our avoidance of "emergency bans."

For those who aren’t aware, Flash was given power-level errata in 2000. We removed that power-level errata, as is our policy, when it was found during the most recent Oracle update. We will not be reissuing errata for the card Flash or any other cards changed during the Future Sight Oracle update.

All the attention paid to the recent functionality change of Flash has caused us to reevaluate how we disseminate such information, however, so we are working on a much more public and visible method of highlighting Oracle and Comprehensive Rules changes going forward.

Source (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/askwizards/0507)

Wobbles The Goose

05-09-2007, 12:26 AM

We removed that power-level errata, as is our policy, when it was found during the most recent Oracle update.

I love this wording and this responce in general. This just makes it seem like unerrataing Flash was an obvious, necessary reaction to finding the power-level errata. "Like, don't blame us! We were just following this awesome policy". Maybe this would be true if there weren't still plenty of other cards with power-level errata that didn't get changed because they would be too powerful. This is true about most of the cards that they listed at the bottom of their original power-level errata article, and there are other obvious examples like Pursuit of Knowledge waiting to get changed when they find them. "What's in this dusty old locked filing cabnet? Why, it's the pre-power errata'd wording of Flash, Jimmy Hoffa, and the mysterious two missing sets of the Homelands block!"

Or it would even be better if they weren't still issuing power errata for cards. I mean, how is it that I can win the game with flash but not inf pump my Void Maw with a leyline in play:

Suffice it to say that under the old rules you could pump the Void Maw infinitely with a Leyline of the Void in play - Leyline of the Void kept the card removed from the game, where it could be used to pump Void Maw again. With the Planar Chaos update that strange occurrence is gone, and Void Maw goes back to working the way you probably thought it worked in the first place.

The best policies are the ones you can both hide behind and ignore. This responce says nothing about why this decision was made or any logic of the timing behind it.

Machinus

05-09-2007, 12:52 AM

I'm glad Forsythe made the public statement he did today. I am unsatisfied with the fact that they did not review this card's legality, and I think perhaps they realize it is a problem, but I doubt we will see a detailed analysis of this particular issue. It's likely they will discuss how the current method for handling Oracle changes is terrible, propose a new method, and not mention the silliness of the GP.

cdr

05-09-2007, 12:58 AM

Maybe this would be true if there weren't still plenty of other cards with power-level errata that didn't get changed because they would be too powerful.

Name one. I know of only one card with power-level errata as defined by Wizards: a functional change to the way it originally worked to make it less powerful. I bet you can't even get the one (although I may have mentioned it somewhere already).

None of the examples you've given so far are at all valid.

It was the necessary and obvious application of their policy, as many people have already pointed out.

Wobbles The Goose

05-09-2007, 02:25 AM

Name one. I know of only one card with power-level errata as defined by Wizards: a functional change to the way it originally worked to make it less powerful. I bet you can't even get the one (although I may have mentioned it somewhere already).

None of the examples you've given so far are at all valid.

It was the necessary and obvious application of their policy, as many people have already pointed out.

I looked for a previous post from you about such a card and couldn't find it. The search did lead me to realize that Pursuit of Knowledge was the result of a rules change in 6th. Who knew? Most of the cards in that other thread were intended to be utterly rediculous just to attempt to start a discussion on the merrits of intended wording vs printed wording, but judging by the replies that's not a discussion worth having per say.

That leaves four cards that I believe have had still have problematic power errata: Gilded Drake, the Parallax enchantments and arguably Void Maw.

Maybe Gilded Drake is the result of a rules change, but as near as I can tell it was more due to the poor initial wordings interaction with creature abilities like protection and shroud or instant speed removal. Sure, it ups the power level of the card, but it winds up with a situation where you have the intended functionality of one card (gilded drake has to be exchanged or it dies) with that of another, stifle (Stifle can counter coming into play abilities). A reasonable interpretation of the policy would lead to the conclusion that it's better to side with how the card is printed barring extreme circumstances. It certainly would have made a difference in the old stifle.dec of extended which ran both, which resulted in top 8 determining match loss for a friend of mine at a PTQ. Granted, it isn't Flash.

The power-errata on the Parralax enchantments might solve "quite counter-intuitive" interactions as the wizards article points out, but it's even less intuitive if you've been playing magic competitively and expect abilities of permanents to resolve even if that permanent is no longer in play. I mean, granted, the enchantments have never been without this errata, but leaving potentially broken cards in a status of "maybe they'll change, maybe they won't" seems like a really bad idea, especially when they can change days or weeks ahead of a major tourniment. These cards don't match the intent or wording of the policy, but were left this way anyway.

Void Maw's errata is mostly to clarify it's interaction with a new rule created specifically created for it's interaction with leyline. I suppose creating a new rule isn't exactly the same as power errata, but it sure feels that way when it changes interactions with existing cards to stop an infinate combo. The two may not have been intended to interact the way they did, but it's a pretty big loophole in the policy to say no to power errata, yes to changing a card in an unintended interactions with a rules change, no to changing a card when intentionally changing the rules.

But I'd love to know what you were fishing for.

Also, it's only a necessary and obvious application of their policy in hindsight. There were no high profile predictions that Flash was to be unerrata'd going into the Future Sight changes or cries that it had not been changed after past updates. That said, a better way to word this complaint on my part would have been to say that there were no "necessary or obvious" justifications for changing this now as opposed to next month or with the 10th edition changes, as many people have already pointed out.

JACO

05-09-2007, 02:26 AM

The presence of Goblin Lackey didn't prevent decks like TES, Boros, Zoo, Belcher, or Survival, or even Psychatog from finishing in the Top2 in the last 3 major tournaments. We'll have to see if Flash is so generous to the format when it sees play at GP Columbus.

The parallels that have been drawn between Goblin Lackey's power and Flash's power are wrong. Aside from the fact that Flash's effect is much more powerful, the reason they are similar and the parallel that should be drawn is that they force people to build decks that can answer the following questions:
(before Hulk Flash) - Can you deal with a first turn Goblin Lackey?
(during Hulk Flash) - Can you deal with a first turn Flash?

I didn't see a problem with the first design constraint, nor do I see a problem with the second design constraint (pre-Future Sight, at least). Personally I would like to see Flash stay legal until December 1st at least to see how decks and the metagame adapt, but I'm almost positive it will be banned on June 1st, unfortunately.

Zilla

05-09-2007, 03:01 AM

I didn't see a problem with the first design constraint, nor do I see a problem with the second design constraint (pre-Future Sight, at least). Personally I would like to see Flash stay legal until December 1st at least to see how decks and the metagame adapt, but I'm almost positive it will be banned on June 1st, unfortunately.
Yeah, I'm tired of playing with more than two colors too. Isn't five a bit excessive?

SpatulaOfTheAges

05-09-2007, 07:31 AM

Garrish, I would say.

DeathwingZERO

05-09-2007, 07:49 AM

I'm still waiting for a combo deck via Flash that wins the game like Protean Hulk. Seems people just aren't up to the challenge of actually building something. Oh well.

The deck stays, until June 1st. From that point on, we see what DCI has to say about it. As for GP, you have 2 choices:

Play Flash
Play something else (and quite possibly lose, who knows)

If Flash sees a ridiculous showing, something will happen. If it doesn't, we may have it until December. That much is up to us.

I'm still finding it really odd that NOBODY has talked about one of the other main reasons behind Flash getting "fixed" (other than just removing power-errata): it's MTGO use. Wizards even talked about the need to go back over it, after the power-level errata was missed. Now, this probably isn't the main reason, but it's sure as hell justifiable. MTGO makes them money, and Mirage has done VERY WELL online.

Now, consider this. Not only do they want to update everything necessary to get MTGO up to date on cards for release (especially with future "classic" releases coming up), but on top of that, it's obvious they don't want to deal with emergency bannings anymore (especially in only ONE format).

Now, it's well known that the policy that Wizards has discussed is to see what the large scale tournaments will say about it. They may have been naive on releasing this card to Legacy, but they definitely aren't going to just up and ban it without some solid results, especially since it's impact is in a limited field of play. They want some results to back it up. In reality, we are at the PERFECT TIMING for this. Yes, it will ruin months of playtesting, fine tuning, and deck building. Would you rather this, or MONTHS of having this deck around post-GP, until they see another tournament of roughly the same importance, as is criteria?

The deck shit on the format, that much is true. But it's also only going to be here for a month, and will "ruin" (omg it's the end of the goddamn world) this PARTICULAR GP. That it's a year and a half since the last one, that's unfortunate, but unavoidable. But it's hardly the same as if the errata had been lifted much before, or even much after, this particular GP. They still want hard proof, and they'll act on it accordingly.

And to be blatantly honest, does this shit-flinging fest of a thread have to bother being continued? What's done is done, it's up to us to show DCI what they have to fix. Nothing in this thread is going to change anything, playing the deck and giving some real results is the only thing that will.

Goblin Snowman

05-09-2007, 08:08 AM

Anusien

05-09-2007, 01:30 PM

The one card left with known power-level errata is Frenetic Efreet. Judging by the Frenetic Sliver, they're unlikely to say that it actually has power-level errata.

Anyway, article goes up tomorrow, addresses many of these points. Many of you will disagree.

Wobbles The Goose

05-09-2007, 02:13 PM

Frenetic Efreet.

Thanks, I totally spaced that one as well. Using that text, Tombstone Stairwell and Stangg have also recieve power-errata. Stangg doesn't seem that breakable, but Stairwell certainly becomes a lot better when you can stack the C Upkeep payment so that you get to keep all the zombies. Course, pre-sixth rules probably had something to say about that. Also, all the reanimation enchantments have comperable errata to only return the creature if they are in play. Finally, Quicksiver Fountain recieved errata to change the fact that it's controlled got to choose the targets, not both players. It might see some play if you were actually able to choose which land of your opponents to hit.

Anusien

05-09-2007, 02:38 PM

Stangg might be, I'd have to think about it, but with Tombstone Stairwell pre-6th ed, you couldn't stack the effects. Upkeep always came first, and was faster than an interrupt, I believe.

bigbear102

05-09-2007, 03:05 PM

Doesn't Impulse have power-level Errata? I'm not sure if it's considered that, but the deleted the "Shuffle your library" clause. Would that be considered power-level errata?

The Djinn

05-09-2007, 03:13 PM

Doesn't Impulse have power-level Errata? I'm not sure if it's considered that, but the deleted the "Shuffle your library" clause. Would that be considered power-level errata?

As far as I know, Impulse was an error. After all, it's quite useless to put the cards on the bottom of your library and then shuffle it.

Nightmare

05-09-2007, 03:51 PM

Impulse was a printing error. It got fixed in the Judge Promo.

revenge_inc

05-09-2007, 04:00 PM

What about Phyrexian Dreadnought?:

http://ww2.wizards.com/Gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20Dreadnought

I read somewhere that the ability was changed from a come-into-play one, and turned into a replacement effect instead. The current wording would suggest that you can't Stifle the ability. Is this a case of a power level errata? (or am I way off on the rules here?)

Nightmare

05-09-2007, 04:11 PM

That's a functionality change. Dreadnaught, Mox Diamond, and Lotus Vale all work the way they were supposed to now, they had to fix that when they modified the way the rules work with 6th edition.

Cait_Sith

05-09-2007, 05:44 PM

Power level errata is when the card is errated to do something that is very, or completely, different from its printed form solely because of the strength of the card.

The classic example: Cloud of Faeries received errata to have its ability only trigger if played from the hand. Cloud of Faeries' text has nothing to with playing from the hand. This errata was done to weaken the card, nothing else.

Other types of errata:

Functional: This is when the card is doing something is plain isn't supposed to be able to do or not doing something it should do.

Example: Pithing Needle now says "Activated abilities of permanents with that name can't be played unless they're mana abilities." Before it said only "cards," which means that copies of cards (since they are not cards) could activate their abilities regardless of Pithing Needle.

Clarity: Done if there is something convoluted about the card. These are rare and are mostly used if some other errata makes the card convoluted (I can't actually think of any at the moment)

MattH

05-09-2007, 10:24 PM

Cards that are borderline on whether they have power level errata or not include Thawing Glaciers and Waylay, although those could be classified as updating them to 6th ed. rules since the parts of a turn where they are abusable did not exist when they were printed.

Note that they DID remove the power-level errata from Waylay on April 20th, same day as Flash: now you can use it as a "Ball Lightning" if you have Fires of Yavimaya in play, where before you HAD to cast it in combat, which was totally 100% PLE.

The Void Maw errata seems to me to be "clarification" errata, to explain exactly what "removed by Void Maw" means.

Since Relic Bind has been printed with its more updated wording, it probably no longer counts as PLE.

There's Time Vault, which I already regret bringing up.

Frenetic Efreet has been mentioned.

Mox Diamond still has "bad" errata, though it's not exactly power-level errata. Currently, discarding the land card is an additional cost, whereas if you read the card's text it clearly says that the discard should only happen if the spell resolves and the artifact comes into play. Mox Diamond is a unique case because it has BOTH "update" errata AND "power level" errata, and the rules team may not even be aware that it has PLE.

The way it SHOULD be updated to post-6th wording is, "As Mox Diamond comes into play, discard a land card or sacrifice Mox Diamond". That wording would not allow you to play the Mox's own mana ability, keeping it from being a Lotus Petal (which is what the card's text, "When ~this~ CIP" originally meant), but also it doesn't punish you for getting the mox countered, and it still lets you play it without a land discarded, and have it immediately sacrificed if you want to (for example, if there's a Disciple of the Vault on the table), which the card's printed text implies you should be able to do.

I think that's all.

Atwa

05-10-2007, 12:25 AM

Stangg might be, I'd have to think about it, but with Tombstone Stairwell pre-6th ed, you couldn't stack the effects. Upkeep always came first, and was faster than an interrupt, I believe.

So, where is it?

Anusien

05-10-2007, 12:47 AM

Mox Diamond still has "bad" errata, though it's not exactly power-level errata. Currently, discarding the land card is an additional cost, whereas if you read the card's text it clearly says that the discard should only happen if the spell resolves and the artifact comes into play. Mox Diamond is a unique case because it has BOTH "update" errata AND "power level" errata, and the rules team may not even be aware that it has PLE.

The way it SHOULD be updated to post-6th wording is, "As Mox Diamond comes into play, discard a land card or sacrifice Mox Diamond". That wording would not allow you to play the Mox's own mana ability, keeping it from being a Lotus Petal (which is what the card's text, "When ~this~ CIP" originally meant), but also it doesn't punish you for getting the mox countered, and it still lets you play it without a land discarded, and have it immediately sacrificed if you want to (for example, if there's a Disciple of the Vault on the table), which the card's printed text implies you should be able to do.
Are there any cards that have "As {this} comes into play, pay a cost"? The shocklands and Squealing Devil. I'm not sure that is the way it would be templated nowadays. I can see why, the Welder interaction shouldn't work now but it does; if they gave the CIP ability Split Second it would work. Then again, that approach fixes a lot of old cards.

So, where is it?
When you submit it an hour early, it goes up a half hour late apparently.

Machinus

05-10-2007, 12:48 AM

Maybe the attendance and popularity of the GP suffering will actually have some positive results for the format. Right now, the B/R list raises serious doubts about the management of the format; perhaps, due to Flash, the topic of Legacy will come up at the next DCI meeting, and they will correct some of the more absurd entries on the list. Obviously they will begin with Flash; hopefully they will continue with the cards I wrote about last year and perhaps some others.

Are there any cards that have "As {this} comes into play, pay a cost"? The shocklands and Squealing Devil. I'm not sure that is the way it would be templated nowadays.

I don't see any reason why this wouldn't work. You can either choose to pay the cost or put it in the graveyard, without anyone getting priority. That is indeed how it was supposed to work.

The only people allowed to double post are mods, because we can merge our own posts. Having to do more work because you didn't feel like hitting the edit button makes me :< ---frogboy

Phantom

05-10-2007, 12:52 AM

freakish777

05-10-2007, 01:37 AM

I'd rather see the GP get more people than last time, and have Flash get banned regardless of what happens at the GP.

It would send the message that "Yes, Legacy is a format worth supporting even when things go wrong" which would mean more GP level events in the future. As far as the things going wrong part, I don't think it's a big enough deal for anyone to say "I'm not going to the GP because of the timing of that errata."

Without Summoner's Pact the deck is quite a bit less degenerate based simply on statistics. Add in the fact that the deck lacks a solid card advantage engine, and it's pretty easy to see that aggro control decks are going to have favorable match-ups (yes, it's not as favorable as it is/was against IGGy/CRET Belcher, but still favorable based on the fact that they need to find 2 specific cards while you find 1 answer). I want to see Flash banned come June 1st just as much as everyone else, but in the meantime all you can do is adapt. Not adapting by not showing up at the GP sends Wizards the message that "This format isn't the right format to support because we're whiney bitches when you take away our toys or give Johnny new toys."

If you have any love for this format (pre-Flash, Flash, or post-Flash), go to the GP.

DeathwingZERO

05-10-2007, 05:26 AM

I agree. Going to the GP at least shows the DCI you give a damn about the format, especially when an asston of Flash or anti-Flash show up. At least then they'll take notice at the fact that we'll know how to break something, and we'd appreciate a little more respect with regards to our B&R list.

We'll especially get notice if the turnout is HUGE. If we can get a much stronger turnout with a degenerate deck less than a month old already showing nigh unbeatable stats, then that should prove we should be getting MORE people when the format isn't so absolutely warped one sided.

Maybe, just maybe, if we turn this into our example that WE care, maybe they'll get the hint and do it themselves. Starting with maybe more than 1 GP every couple years.

EDIT: And just so it's out there, regardless of Flash or not, the only reason I decided not to come out to the GP this time was because I can't possibly afford it. Next time around if I weren't so damn broke, you'd bet I'd put up with the trek for something so rare.

Nihil Credo

05-10-2007, 10:36 AM

Are there any cards that have "As {this} comes into play, pay a cost"? The shocklands and Squealing Devil. I'm not sure that is the way it would be templated nowadays. I can see why, the Welder interaction shouldn't work now but it does; if they gave the CIP ability Split Second it would work. Then again, that approach fixes a lot of old cards.
Squealing Devil has a regular triggered ability.

If they gave Mox Diamond a triggered Split Second ability, you could still use it as a Lotus Petal (Split Second doesn't stop mana abilities).

Personally, I've always been in favour of rewording Phyrexian Dreadnought and similar cards with an "As..." ability. However, while this would make it uncounterable (thus eliminating the need for Gilded Drake ugliness), it would also mean that the card does hit play before going to the graveyard. So the Dreadnough/Pandemonium combo would work again, etc. Of course, with the new power level errata policy, that's no longer an issue.

Nightmare

05-10-2007, 11:05 AM

Xero

05-10-2007, 03:43 PM

Does Insidious Bookworms (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?e=ai&l=en&n=12) have power level errata? The original seems far different than the modern wording.

Edit: Maybe not. The wording just seems cleaned up a bit.

Goblin Snowman

05-10-2007, 05:27 PM

I don't understand why you would skip out on this GP if you have the option to go. Play in it for the history, if nothing else. How often does a deck as broken as this one get to see play in high-level, sanctioned events? Don't you want to be able to say you were a part of that?

I don't want to blow a few hundred and build Hulk Flash, really. I can predict how it's going to go, and although I will miss the glamor of having to carpool with 6-7 other people in a van for hours, it's not worth it to me.

Xero

05-10-2007, 05:37 PM

It's alot of time and money to 0-2 drop.

n00bas4urus_r3x

05-10-2007, 06:15 PM

Fucking pussies. I'm going and will poorly represent ICBE. Point is I'm going damn it. It will be a blast, and deffinatly interesting to see what a field of hulk flashes look like.

DeathwingZERO

05-11-2007, 06:05 AM

Worst case scenario: Flash absolutely dominates and crushes the metagame. At least if this is the case, some of you willing to have shelled out the money on this deck with the "risk" of a banning overhead are going to get your payment back, at least those of you that make it. Still doesn't get banned June 1st.

Mid case scenario: Flash gets its ass kicked by some tech deck that actually puts up some decent numbers against other decks. 3 weeks really isn't enough time for us to "tech out" a deck against this potent a combo, but it'd be nice if someone actually pulled it off.

Best case scenario: Same as scenario 1, except Flash is obviously noticed, as it not only dominates to 5+ top 8 finishes, but is shown in 25-50% total showing. Gets Flash or Hulk banned.

This is the most likely of the choices. We may see a ton of people not even bring Flash, on the premise that so many hate decks will lose to dominate decks of the format Pre-Flash. Thus there's no real showing, and the deck sticks around in casual/smaller sanctioned tournies until next B&R update. We'll really just have to see.

raudo

05-11-2007, 08:01 AM

Please, please bring so many flash decks to the GP as you can so we can get rid of the monster. I think the whole purpose of Legacy existence is to offer a fun-to-play playing field. In my honest opinion flash deck is not fun to play with or against. If they are removing the power level errata cause the card should work that way, you should ask yourself if the magic is originally meant to be played that way; lose without a draw phase.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-12-2007, 05:05 AM

and make them start running multicolored, hybridized aggro-control decks.

In other words, Flash made people start running *good* decks that disrupt the opponent.

You make two assumptions.

Nothing more needs to be said about the first other than; there are no objetive good decks, and to argue otherwise is simply nonsense. A deck is only "good" if it beats other decks in the same environment. Arguing that anything is or isn't good on the merit that it promotes "good" decks is contradictory; if those decks were "good", they would be good without the change.

On the second, I'd like an explanation of why you think a format with only a couple of viable archetypes is more entertaining or more skill-rewarding than one with dozens of viable archetypes.

Artowis

05-12-2007, 05:41 AM

On the second, I'd like an explanation of why you think a format with only a couple of viable archetypes is more entertaining or more skill-rewarding than one with dozens of viable archetypes.

Actually I can answer this one. A number of people were annoyed with this season's extended format because there weren't really a superior subclass of decks to play. Everything was essentially at a tier 2 power level. There was literally like a dozen different decks you could play and make a reasonable argument for.

This caused a growing sentiment that it was no longer about what deck you chose to play or in some cases even how well you could play it. People were succeeding simply because they happened to be getting the right pairings throughout the day. Somebody, and I forget who, maybe Feldman or PRJ described the all tier 2 metagame like this:

If no great player skill exists between most of your opponents and yourself, then that only leaves a few possible options.
1) Hope to play against a deck that loses to your deck.
2) Mulligan less & draw better cards.
3) Have the opponent make mistakes

Went something like that.

Basically the main two issues were:
1) You can't 'solve' that type of format which severely limited the advantage / point of deck construction in the first place. Metagaming and trying to play edges doesn't mean much when the biggest deck of the metagame is less than a quarter of the tournament and there's minimal splash damage across strategies.

2) You could bring a perfectly reasonable deck-choice, play near perfectly and eat a nice 1-2 drop while someone else with basically the same deck and playskill, got different pairings and made T8. You saw this a lot with the Tron and Loam decks as people started to gravitate towards them.

Note that I'm not trying to argue one way or the other, merely pointing out an example of issues people had with the 'wide-open' format.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-12-2007, 05:49 AM

A mysterious MaskedMan noticed this and on the SCG forums, and made a similar point, which essentially boils down to;

Of course some people like the simpler metagame. Some people prefer the easy setting. Even people who like the hard setting normally can get frustrated and want to lower it.

But ultimately, someone has to win a Magic tournament, and the person who has a better grasp on it is always more favored, no matter how complex the format. Do they have to have perfect knowledge of all the many intricacies of a delicately balanced format? No. But there's going to be an edge somewhere. Maybe, in that case, if every deck is roughly the same power level, the choice should come down to which punishes play mistakes of your opponent more; or which has more options; or which rewards your playstyle more. Maybe it's simply the one you enjoy more; if you're having fun, you're going to be more engaged and more likely to spot play mistakes before you make them.

MattH

05-12-2007, 11:32 AM

But ultimately, someone has to win a Magic tournament, and the person who has a better grasp on it is always more favored, no matter how complex the format.
That may be true, but if that edge doesn't pay off often enough, people will still be dissatisfied. If your playskill gives you a 50.001% chance of beating me, it's still going to get called a "coinflip" format and be abandoned.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-12-2007, 11:36 AM

While that's true, what you're describing doesn't sound to me like a scenario where playskill isn't being rewarded; it sounds like a scenario where playskill is a much bigger hill to climb. To people who are used to metagames with between two and five decks, a metagame with twenty decks is extraordinarily difficult to navigate correctly. A lot of players rely on either just playing what's the undisputed best deck or trying to hate it; this is why you will always find people willing to defend Raffinity or Hulk-Flash. If people complain that there's no skill in such formats, I think this is more likely to simply mean that there's less of an emphasis on the skills they've mastered (playskill itself), and much more an emphasis on a skill that they haven't developed sufficiently (metagame analysis and deck tweaking).

Certainly this seems inherently true of Legacy, where the list of playable cards is much broader and more strategies can be re-arranged to hit a larger part of the metagame, anyway, even if it's not true of Block (where I suppose the fact that you only have so many playable cards comes up).