[Discussion] Is Goblins being hated out?

[SpikeyMikey]

I was in Madison for a GPT on Saturday, and after the third round, the last table of the tournament consisted of 3 Goblins, 2 Affinity, and Survival Slivers. It seems telling to me that all the 0-3 decks were disruptionless aggro.

I think most people recognize that Goblins is a threat, because of it's speed, and have designed their decks to be able to handle that threat smoothly. While Affinity doesn't catch any splash SB hate, it does catch a fair amount of splash MD hate, in the form of board clearers and cheap single target removal aimed to catch Lackey and Piledriver. Slivers, well, I'm pretty rusty, and it was mainly a hate deck aimed at Gobbos, which it trounced quite neatly.

The point is, there were no Gobs that I could see anywhere in the top half of the standings when I left after round 4. Landstill, Tendrils combo, Loam combo, but no speed aggro.

Are we reaching the end of the pendulum swing, is the format going to start shifting back towards midrange aggro and counter control, or is the inexpensive nature of Goblins and it's relatively easy piloting going to keep it in the format as a foil to those slower style decks in the early rounds?

[noobslayer]

No, Goblins isn't being hated out. I just feel the better Goblins players aren't making the showings they used to. The creation of Hulk Flash though (if played by competent players) will however create a strong road block that Goblins will have to fight through at the Grand Prix. I still think though Goblins is a viable deck in the current format.

[Hummingbird TG]

not after May 20th, though.

[blacklotus3636]

I agree with what others like zilla have said. That all aggro decks are essentially not viable in a format where a deck can usually kill turns 1-2(or even 0) with protection and consistency. I don`t want this to turn into a discussion about hulk flash but things are pretty unbalanced now and its the format you have to work with if you plan on playing in the grand prix. So here are the new rules as I see it for the format for columbus:

1. All disruptionless or disruption lite aggro is going to be destroyed by a flash player with half a brain.

2. In order for any deck to win in this format it has to be able to dish out enough hate and have a fast enough clock in order to reliably beat flash players.

3. Other combo decks are stupid. Why would you play any other combo deck besides this one? Its faster and more resilient than pretty much anything else.

4. Pure control won`t really work. This kind of goes along with no.2 . Most control decks are able to put out alot of hate but give the flash player enough time to recover. Pure control as it has come to be known in legacy simply doesn`t kill fast enough to win reliably against flash.

Unless goblins(or any other aggro that wishes to compete) can reinvent itself to deal with a combo deck like flash it just doesn`t stand a chance.
This may seem like an odd idea but I thought that maybe goblins could start running ancient tombs and/or chrome moxen to power out things like trinisphere or chalice on turns 1-2. If its still too slow you always add in the red spirit guide.

[barron]

Maybe it's just the meta's. but down here I think goblins is hated out. At the last big tournament (there is another one in a few hours so we will see if this has changed) the only goblin deck that made it into the top 8 was one with fledgling drakes in the sideboard. I think it was a bad call, but one that is interesting is there was a game that I saw him play where his opponent had 2 engineered plagues on the table (the hate de jour) and he came back and won by playing two dragons. Anyway, point is, his "suboptimal" build let him beat a deck and player who would have won that game, and who normally beats goblins.

I also think solidarity is gettin pretty well hated, too.

[Xero]

Hulk Flash hurts the deck. If that gets nerfed, Goblins will be the domanant deck again.

[Hanni]

I think this deck can do very well against Hulk Flash depending on the build. Obviously, the deck needs changed completely. Against the HF builds that gun for a turn 0 or 1 kill... those will beat Goblins. However, those lists will lose more often than not to aggro/control, where Goblins will most likely beat the aggro/control. Not only that, but some HF lists are built to beat aggro/control, where Goblins will still have a good matchup. It's all dependant on the meta.

I'd personally start working on Goblins/b now. You don't get any enchantment hate for Engineered Plague, but I think the deck is beyond that by now. Since I think mana denial will eventually be much weaker in the format than it is currently, it would also be possible to splash black and green, for Cabal Therapy and Krosan Grip.

I'd fit 3 Cabal Therapy in the maindeck, possibly 4 Leyline of the Void as well. 4 Chalice in the board is still strong, because since it's sideboarded, you should now what to cast it at for game 2 (0 vs Pact builds, 1 vs Mirage Tutor builds, 2 vs U/B control builds).

The deck should probably cut anti artifiact answers MD (like Hooligan or Tinkerer) and it should reduce the amount of Gempalms and Fanatics by a bit. It needs to fit the full 4 SCG probably. I'm not sure how important Ringleader is anymore when the deck is focused for early kills rather than resiliency over the long run... and it may be wise to sideboard some of them and bring the extras in vs Control, however retarded this may sound (if the deck still needs extra MD spots, I'd probably drop a Ringleader or two and put them in the board).

Goblins can survive, it just needs to retweak itself a little bit. That's my personal opinion, at least.

[Cait_Sith]

Hulk Flash hurts the deck. If that gets nerfed, Goblins will be the domanant deck again.

Please remember that Goblins has been sinking for sometime, long before Hulk Flash was even a remote possibility.

1) People are ready for Goblins more than ever before.
2) There is a much wider selection of good decks available now. People can choose the one they want.
3) No good cards for Goblins have been printed in some time while other decks get bits and pieces.

[coolmagics]

I'd personally start working on Goblins/b now. You don't get any enchantment hate for Engineered Plague, but I think the deck is beyond that by now.


Black splash does have Dralnu's Crusade to negate the Engineered Plagues.

I think you're right that a black splash for Leylines and/or Cabal Therapies should stand a decent chance of beating Hulk Flash. I don't know how much the deck would have to change, but it's something to look at.

[Zilla]

Black splash does have Dralnu's Crusade to negate the Engineered Plagues.
There's not really a compelling reason to run Dralnu's over Goblin King as an answer to Plague in a build not splashing green or white. It does the same thing but it can be tutored for, drawn with Ringleader, sacced to SGC, cheated into play, and it's a threat on its own. It's obviously vulnerable to creature removal, but I would say its many pros outweigh the single con.

[Nydaeli]

There's not really a compelling reason to run Dralnu's over Goblin King as an answer to Plague in a build not splashing green or white. It does the same thing but it can be tutored for, drawn with Ringleader, sacced to SGC, cheated into play, and it's a threat on its own. It's obviously vulnerable to creature removal, but I would say its many pros outweigh the single con.

Dralnu's is an answer to Pyroclasm, while King is not. That's probably the best reason to run it. (Yeah, this probably falls under the category of "vulnerable to creature removal.")