[Deck] Belcher

[Aus-Rotten]

So this is the list I've been working on. I still don't really have a plan for the sideboard as I am absolutely terrible at those things but I know it'll contain 1 ETW, some amount of Deathmarks, Shattering Sprees and Pyroblasts among various metagame wish targets.

// Lands
1 [B] Taiga
1 [B] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
3 [GP] Wild Cantor

// Spells
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
2 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MR] Spoils of the Vault
3 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
3 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens

I'm sure some of the cards go against conventional wisdom, but so far the testing for the 4/4/3/2 split of Spoils/Belcher/ETW/Wish split has been solid. Post any comments/criticisms. It's pretty late so I'll post more tomorrow after I get some sleep.

[Phthisisity]

shattering spree is actually terrible because it rarely does the intended job. it doesnt kill chalice. you don't have the sustainable red mana to make it useful. ingot chewer is better and hull reach is a better wish target.

i think the 2/2 warrens split MD and BOARD is the right number. most MU's dont require the warrens kill. the only time you want more is against U so you can bait them with spoils and have them counter to up your storm count.

[Ozymandias]

I would also put in that Cabal Ritual is pretty bad in this deck, because Threshold comes only after something's gone horribly wrong, so it gets the same or less boost as Desperate Ritual, and it's on the off color, which you have far less ways to generate than r, plus less ability to chain spells like Rite of Flame or 2x SSG into it. I would cut three for one Desperate Ritual and either two ESG, as a quick burst of (for you) colorless, or two Street Wraith.

2 Burning Wish seems like a poor number. If you plan to derive any kind of utility from a Wishboard, either for Hull Breach or Tendrils or the like, you will need at least 4 to see them consistently.

[Phthisisity]

I would also put in that Cabal Ritual is pretty bad in this deck, because Threshold comes only after something's gone horribly wrong, so it gets the same or less boost as Desperate Ritual, and it's on the off color, which you have far less ways to generate than r, plus less ability to chain spells like Rite of Flame or 2x SSG into it. I would cut three for one Desperate Ritual and either two ESG, as a quick burst of (for you) colorless, or two Street Wraith.

2 Burning Wish seems like a poor number. If you plan to derive any kind of utility from a Wishboard, either for Hull Breach or Tendrils or the like, you will need at least 4 to see them consistently.

honestly the wish board it not te reason to run wish but to have 2 extra warrens.but if you run wish a few slots in the board are prudent. i hate tendrils in the deck. cabal rit is strictly better than desperate rit. you should have no less than 6 ways to wash mana if you play this much black so the switch shouldn't be a problem. street wraith is bad. in every deck. all it does is confuse your mulligan decisions.

[Ozymandias]

So that you can run...5 warrens, instead of 4? Or, counting Spoils, 9 instead of 8? I would think Wish is better than Spoils because you don't lose an average of 12+ life in the casting, letting someone with, say, a Wild Nacatl/Kird Ape go swing, bolt, bolt for the win. If you want to try and win that turn, your six other cards will need to generate 8 mana, and if you want to cast Warrens, well, spoiling for a 3-of will lose you even more life.

And Desperate Ritual is not strictly worse than Cabal Ritual. Normally they are equal, because you will not have Threshold. Now, Desperate has three advantages:
1: It is easier to cast, even if, in your deck, only marginally.
2: It doesn't convert red mana into black, which is only useful for Spoils, Dark Ritual (a card which keeps the amount of red mana in your mana pool constant, incidentally) and further rituals.
3: If you have 2RR in your mana pool and two desperate rituals, it becomes 7 red mana thanks to splices, not six. This is important because 7 mana is what you need to play and activate Belcher in one turn.

[dal9ll]

Regarding the threat of Counterbalance:
Reverent Silence seems our best answer to it, not to mention its fetchable with Burning Wish.

[TestMonkey]

3: If you have 2RR in your mana pool and two desperate rituals, it becomes 7 red mana thanks to splices, not six. This is important because 7 mana is what you need to play and activate Belcher in one turn.

Wah?! How does this work?

[kicks_422]

Don't you know how Splice works? Cast the first Desperate Ritual, Splice the second onto that, then cast the 2nd Ritual.

[beastman]

Has anyone else tried Demigod of revenge in the board?

I find that most of my opponents side out creature removal, and almost nobody knows how to properly counter him. Against blue, I side out belchers in favor of this guy, because one is huge, but if you get 2, you just win.

[Jim Higginbottom]

are people really so stupid that they don't know how to counter demigod?

[jimirynk]

Has anyone else tried Demigod of revenge in the board?

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGPLACHA/akroma,_angel_of_fury.jpg

[elgoff]

As a member of Team CRET creator of Cret Belcher, I can talk for us about this sideboard plan...

Deus of Calamity is used in our side deck right now. Deus first turn is terribly back breaking for you opponant. Better than Demigod and far better from Red Akroma.

[jimirynk]

As a member of Team CRET creator of Cret Belcher, I can talk for us about this sideboard plan...

Deus of Calamity is used in our side deck right now. Deus first turn is terribly back breaking for you opponant. Better than Demigod and far better from Red Akroma.

Deus is outdated tech.
The only real answer for it is one white.
So its effect is useless.

[Phthisisity]

you shouldn't be losing to zoo, spoils or no. you have so many more turns to kill them that you shouldn't even need to cast the spoils. just sit back and kill them the turn before they kill you. we beat any deck not playing blue....end of story.

[Damoxx]

you shouldn't be losing to zoo, spoils or no. you have so many more turns to kill them that you shouldn't even need to cast the spoils. just sit back and kill them the turn before they kill you. we beat any deck not playing blue....end of story.

Truth right there. Even if zoo chant's you, you should have enough time to reload and win.

[beastman]

I just got back from the Star city games 1,000 dollar open, losing 1 game all day, to merfolk when he had force daze and cursecatcher. I still managed to make 10 goblins, but he had 3 lords and other guys to beat me.

My list was:

4 Land grant
4 Simian spirit guide
4 Elvish spirit guide
4 Rite of flame
4 Seething song
4 Desperate ritual
4 Tinder wall
4 Dark ritual
4 Lotus petal
4 Lions eye diamond
4 Chrome mox
4 Burning wish
4 Goblin charbelcher
3 Empty the warrens
3 Manamorphose
1 Taiga
1 Bayou

SB:
4 Xantid swarm
4 Ingot chewer
1 Empty the warrens
1 Duress
1 Infernal tutor
1 Shattering spree
1 Deathmark
1 Diminishing returns
1 Tendrils of agony

[Ozymandias]

2 questions:

1) What were your matchups?
2) Is the IT in the board for those games where you can make 3BR, have burning wish in hand, and two LEDs on the board, so you can fetch Belcher and 1-shot? If not, what is it for? Building 1 storm?

[toor]

2 questions:

1) What were your matchups?
2) Is the IT in the board for those games where you can make 3BR, have burning wish in hand, and two LEDs on the board, so you can fetch Belcher and 1-shot? If not, what is it for? Building 1 storm?

Seconded, plus
3) How good was diminishing returns
4) did u miss not having more duress effects in the board

[beastman]

My MU's were eva green, Zoo, Merfolk, Dredge, and Gearharts latest deck featuring hymns gerrards verdicts, thoughtsiezes and more badness.

Infernal tutor is stupid good, as it builds storm up, to make your goblin wall unstoppable.

I had a game against gearhart where I went off for 8 goblins, and he played double goyf and got a jitte going. I stopped attacking to give myself time to rebuild, and built up about 4 rituals, and B. wish. He hymns me the next turn, and hits 2 rituals. I rip LED, play Rite with 2 in the yard, play seething song, play LED, play wish, crack LED for 3 blue, find returns, draw a fresh 7 with 4 or 5 floating, I have an LED and a wish in hand, play a few more rituals, into wish, crack LED for three black get Infernal tutor tutor for my last B. wish, wish for tendrils, and tendrils for 28. Gearhart was at 24 from jitte life so nothing else would have worked.

So yeah, there are definetely times where you need returns.

[jimirynk]

I had a game against gearhart where I went off for 8 goblins, and he played double goyf and got a jitte going. I stopped attacking to give myself time to rebuild, and built up about 4 rituals, and B. wish. He hymns me the next turn, and hits 2 rituals. I rip LED, play Rite with 2 in the yard, play seething song, play LED, play wish, crack LED for 3 blue, find returns, draw a fresh 7 with 4 or 5 floating, I have an LED and a wish in hand, play a few more rituals, into wish, crack LED for three black get Infernal tutor tutor for my last B. wish, wish for tendrils, and tendrils for 28. Gearhart was at 24 from jitte life so nothing else would have worked.



Was on the edge of my seat reading this post.

[toor]

PLayed in the Mox Tournament Yesterday (50 People. 5 Rounds)
Played:
4 Land grant
4 Simian spirit guide
4 Elvish spirit guide
4 Rite of flame
4 Seething song
4 Desperate ritual
4 Tinder wall
4 Dark ritual
4 Lotus petal
4 Lions eye diamond
3 Chrome mox
4 Burning wish
1 Infernal Tutor
4 Goblin charbelcher
3 Empty the warrens
3 Manamorphose
1 Taiga
1 Bayou

SB:
4 Xantid swarm
3 Ingot chewer
1 Empty the warrens
2 Duress
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering spree
1 Deathmark
1 Reverent Silence
1 Tendrils of agony

Went 3-2 facing 5 blue decks:
Rnd 1: COuntertop/Bant/Natural ORder.
2-0
Rnd 2: URw Faeries (daze, FoW, Spellstutter, Vendillion)
2-0
Rnd 3: Landstill
1-2
Rnd 4: Eva Green
2-0
Rnd 5: Countertop 4c
1-2

While the deck was fun, it felt more matchup dependent then anything else I have ever played. Dissapointing finish but I enjoyed myself.

[AcidFiend]

Was on the edge of my seat reading this post.

Same man, that play was epic I loved it :)

I built this deck a couple of years ago and have been playing others since it seemed to stagnate during the the Countertop & Merfolk era. With all the aggro running around I wouldn't mind resurrecting it again. Seems the most common difference between builds is whether to run Spoils/IT MD or not.

Sorry if DoC is old tech, but can anyone post their experiences with it? Seems pretty cool, but when would you bring it in? Does it replace Empty the Warrens when you fear Pyroclasm/Plague/Fallout/etc?

@ toor & beastman:
You both played against a number of blue decks while having 4 Xantid Swarm in your board. Can you elaborate on how it played out for you?

[beastman]

I never drew a swarm. I think the key to getting around blue decks is to go for ETW. They need to counter the exact right ritual to keep you off it, and even then, you sometimes can just make enough extra to go off regardless.

[Blitzbold]

Belcher is one of the decks where Diminishing Returns really shines as a wish target.

[toor]

Long story short this deck is terrible if you expect a decent amount of blue decks.

What I sided in depended on what exactly their blue deck has and if they were competent. Against competent players I would never bring in 4 swarm since they should be expecting it. Instead I bring in a mix of swarm and duress. Against bad players who auto sideboard out their removal I bring in the full set of swarms.

If your opponent has daze but no spell snares, then I take out seething songs. If my opponent has spell snares but no dazes I tend to take out some number of wishes/infernal tutors.

Empty post board is only a really good strategy for merfolk or faerie stompy. Most other blue decks (thresh, landstill, countertop) will have a bunch of sweepers (pyroclasms, ee and deed). In that case you have to try and gauge what answers will be good enough (for example deed on the draw doesn't do it versus 10 goblins, but deed + swords will).

I find the best strategy versus blue decks is often to just hold for a few turns until you can basically go off twice in the same turn if you don't have the disruption early. I especially like any hand with a land.

[kinda]

I was wondering if someone could explain how lion's eye diamond is abused in here...seeing as you can't respond to it with any of your win conditions. Is it just used to activate belcher?

[mogote]

I was wondering if someone could explain how lion's eye diamond is abused in here...seeing as you can't respond to it with any of your win conditions. Is it just used to activate belcher?
You can play Burning Wish and in response activate Lion's Eye Diamond (with the tutor still on the stack). Then, you can use the mana from LED to play whatever you tutored for (Tendrils, EtW, Diminishing Returns...).

[Mikeleroi]

Or in response to a Wish, while it´s on the stack.

Edit: Ops, faster than me :p

[beastman]

It allows you to activate belcher, meaning that you only need to make 4 mana off of rituals in order to go off.

[Ozymandias]

So I guess the sideboarding for blue decks is to cut seething song for Xantid Swarm, and against Chalice decks to cut dark ritual/manamorphose for Ingot Chewer?

[beastman]

Yes. You cut dark rit, I wouldn't take out manamorphose though, as it still helps you play tinder wall, and play black or blue spells off of wish.

[sco0ter]

Is a build without Burning Wish viable? I consider playing this deck on a large event (~200 players, I guess) in 2 weeks, but I have no Wishes currently.

I studied deckcheck and saw this list (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=7972) and this list (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22399).
It seems that Wish was replaced by Duress and/or Spoils of the Vault.

What do you think?

[AcidFiend]

I really like the first of those lists without Empty the Warrens with Duress & Tutors. A lot of times I've made a lot of Goblins and the person has survived and crushed me. Maelstrom Pulse, Powder Keg, EE, Echoing Truth, Pyroclasm, Propaganda, Elephant Grass, even a lifelinker like Rhox War Monk can offset your Goblins. Also it sucks having multiple win cons in an opening hand, usually leaving you without enough accelerants. Charbelcher is the best win con, and that deck is optimised to get it.

[Forbiddian]

So... nobody is discussing this deck?

6 people out of 140 played it in LA, and it won 2/3rds of its matches, including putting a player in the T8 and another one in the T16.

[Wargoos]

Not much to discuss. You mostly ll win ur non-blue mu's and throw a coin against the blue ones.
Also lists have been tweaked for years now.
All in all a meta dependant deck but fuckin boring as hell.

Also:


God damn I hate Belcher combo. I can't imagine going to a Legacy tournament, where you can play any deck you want, even Enchantress and other really fun decks, and then you choose to play Yahtzee.

Why would u want to discuss the deck now. oO

[Forbiddian]

I'm probing if there's new tech or something.

[badjuju]

No it's pretty much the same stuff it's been doing forever. Most decks are ill-prepared against turn 1 blowouts g1 and not that much better off g2. Good pairings will also get you into the top tables.

[Brad Herbig]

I'm probing if there's new tech or something.

The only "new tech", or rather a metagame strategy switch, is to give up the more easily answered EtW win for a deck more focused on Belching for the win, since EtW is now answered by the likes of EE, Pyroclasm, Echoing Truth, etc. This build uses Spoils of the Vault to tutor for that last piece of the combo you need. Some say it kills you too often, but in my experience, it has been pretty solid. Here's an example list:

// Lands
1 [U] Bayou
1 [B] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [9E] Seething Song
3 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MM] Land Grant
3 [MR] Spoils of the Vault
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [4E] Dark Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond

The other, more classic version of Belcher, plays 3 Empty the Warrens instead of the Spoils. It really seems like a personal preference choice.

Other than choosing between those two lists, and what sideboard cards to include, there really isn't any new tech.

[Forbiddian]

Incidentally, for those interested, I just calculated the whiff probabilities:

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z5/Forbiddian/BelcherProbability.jpg

Pretty much the best you can do off a turn 1 Belch is an 80% chance to kill. Against aggro decks where you have time, you need to set up multibelch or double land grant, etc.

[Brad Herbig]

80% is pretty good. Especially since you can belch more than one turn. And since most of the deck is mana sources, it isnt very hard to draw into another 3 mana to activate the belcher again on the next turn.

[Illissius]

Taking that a step further:

You have a 47.4% chance of drawing at least one Land Grant or Taiga in your opening hand. If the deck also has Bayou, you have an 11.7% chance of drawing it and nothing else, the same for Taiga, 29% for one Land Grant and nothing else, and 22.8% for 2 or more of the 6.

Taking all of this into account, if you draw your opening hand of 7, cast any Land Grants, and then Belch your opponent who is at 20, a build with only Taiga has a 9% chance of fizzling, while a build which also has Bayou has a 31.6% chance of fizzling if you fetch Bayou with your first Land Grant, and 37% if you fetch Taiga first. Assuming I don't suck at math. EDIT: Actually, I do, the odds for single Bayou/Taiga/Land Grant are wrong; they should be lower than they are. Hence, so are the numbers for the Bayou builds, which should be worse than they are. Let me redo that.

This sounds like compelling evidence not to include Bayou. It more than triples your chances of fizzling, to around one in every three tries instead of one in ten. Of course, to make an accurate decision, you also need to calculate by how much it increases your chances of Belching in the first place, which seems like it would be better done with simulation rather than calculation. It gets even more complex if you want to take EtW into account.

[kicks_422]

I've never seen the need for Bayou anyway in Belcher. You don't need it to cast Dark Rituals, and the SB options that it provides just clogs the deck up.

[AcidFiend]

Has anyone worked to optimize a one-land version? When you streamline the deck to go for the Belcher win, seems you'd also try to maximize Belcher getting a kill, therefore cutting Bayou. Perhaps cut the Bayou for another Manamorphose? I know the problem will be getting that first black, but it is only 1 Bayou after all. You still can via Chrome Mox, Manamorphose & Lotus Petal. LED is probably no help. If only there was a Zombie Spirit Guide...

1 [b] Taiga
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [9E] Seething Song
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MM] Land Grant
3 [MR] Spoils of the Vault
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [4E] Dark Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond

Without Bayou, the worst you can do is 20% whiff; otherwise you win.

Edit: Wow, a few people beat me to it! Hehe. All hail the banishing of Bayou!!

[beastman]

For fucks sake, belcher is played so that you don't have to think. You guys are ruining it.

[kicks_422]

For fucks sake, belcher is played so that you don't have to think. You guys are ruining it.

I used to think that as well. But then I've seen Belcher players dumping out all the mana in their hand and then saying "oh, I'm short one mana" or "I just realized I don't have a kill in hand".

The deck's a glass cannon, for sure. But at the very least you should think of how to aim it right.

[Forbiddian]

I used to think that as well. But then I've seen Belcher players dumping out all the mana in their hand and then saying "oh, I'm short one mana" or "I just realized I don't have a kill in hand".

The deck's a glass cannon, for sure. But at the very least you should think of how to aim it right.

For fucks sake, you've seen people fail at counting to 7 or ensuring that a card in their hand is titled, "Goblin Charbelcher?"


I will now lock myself in my room until I can calculate the odds of Belcher going off.

[Gocho]

I agree that you don't need to think a lot playing Belcher, but this deck needs that you think in your strategy before play it. And "strategy" means:
- 2 or 3 colors?
- Spoils or not?
- Bayou or not?
- How many Wild Cantor?
- etc...

Many people makes this work for you, so you can get a list, play it and don't think anything, but this doesn't mean that you can't improve the lists.

Some pages ago, someone suggest a R/G list with Recross the Paths. After play the Taiga, you can cast Recross and sort all your deck, making a Turn 2 win with Belcher activation (Turn 1 if you have Manamorphose too, but Land Grant + Recross + Manamorphose is a lot of luck). I didn't test it, but is new tech.

[Darkenslight]

Would you ever consider a sideboard with Pyromancer's Swath and Grapeshot, for a variant Storm kill? Or is that too meta-dependent?

[Gocho]

You go from 1 card combo-win (Goblin Charbelcher or Empty the warrens) to 2 cards combo win.

I can't see how this sideboard would improve the deck

[Brad Herbig]

Agreed. Swath Shot is disrupted by the same things as Belcher is, so there is no advantage to using it as another wincon. Unless you want to just make a legacy swathshot deck.

[BreathWeapon]

If you need/want another kill condition, Hunting Pack and Manamorphose were alright, I ran that config. vs Duress for awhile. You can even fit Natural Order in the deck, either by adding a Dryad Arbor or like 4 of the r/g mana filter guy.

[Infinitium]

Still no love for Recross the Paths people? With 3 Mana available and Taiga on the table it's a strictly better Doomsday. Without the Taiga it's effectively a 3cc sorcery that finds that Taiga and then has an above-average chance of clashing itself right back into your hand, and with an extra 2 mana investment you get to tap that Taiga and replay it on the spot.

Anyway since my last input didn't really spark any discussion I'm going to go ahead and post a mini-primer instead. It's at least worth the consideration Imo.

// Lands
1 Taiga

// Creatures
4 [CST] Tinder Wall
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
1 [OV] Meditate
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
3 [MOR] Recross the Paths
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
3 [9E] Seething Song

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MOR] Recross the Paths
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [MM] Cave-In
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [LG] Chain Lightning
SB: 1 [6E] Infernal Contract
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [MM] Crash
SB: 1 [MM] Thunderclap
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm

[B]Mini-Q&A
Q: What does Recross the Paths do?
A: It reveals cards off the top of your library until it hits a land card and then puts the revealed cards back in any order at the bottom of it, meaning that if you don't have any lands left in it you get to stack it from the bottom up.
Q: Doesn't that make it useless unless you also draw the Taiga/Land Grant?
A: It makes it worse, but not entirely useless. You can still play it to find the aforementioned Taiga, and with any luck you'll also win the clash meaning that you get your investment back. Remember that with the Taiga you only need another 2 mana to replay it the same turn..
Q: How fast do you win after stacking your deck?
A: Depends on how many cantrips and/or Mana floating you've got left after Recrossing. With 3 mana and a cantrip OR 2 cantrips (and 2 mana for Manamorphose should you not have 2 Wraiths) on hand you can win the same turn you Recross. With one Cantrip OR the means of producing 3 mana you'll win the next turn. If you have an empty hand you'll need to spend 2 turns drawing into Mana as well as the Meditate to initiate the piles; preferrably by topdecking a LED and a Street Wraith - which is still as fast as EtW in the vast majority of all situations.
Q: Isn't EtW better versus blue-based decks?
A: Nah. They can still counter your mana sources to prevent you from reaching 4 Mana (especially if you had to use Land Grant and they see it coming), and 12+ Goblins isn't a guaranteed win by a long shot since there isn't a deck out there that won't be able to deal with them at least postside.

Generic Piles:

Kill Pile (as ordered from top through bottom):
*Street Wraith (for Clashing if you wanna get the Recross back for Imprinting Chrome Mox)
*Setup (Whatever is still needed to cast Meditate ASAP - see the Mini-FAQ)
Meditate
LED
LED
Lotus Petal (If you have a surplus mana you can substitute this for Thunderclap/Crash/Reverent Silence to remove inconvenient permanents game 2)
Street Wraith
Goblin Charbelcher

Do your preparations. Cast Meditate to draw into the LED's and Wraith. Cycle the Wraith whilst cracking the LED's in response and end up with Charbelcher in hand and 7-9 mana in pool. Win.

Slightly more convoluted kill that can also deal with whatever hate they managed Pile:
*Street Wraith
*Setup
Meditate
LED
LED
LED
Street Wraith
Burning Wish
LED
Seething Song
Burning Wish
Street Wraith
Charbelcher

Cast Meditate. Draw cards, cycle wraith whilst cracking the LEDs' for RRRRRRBBB, draw Wish and cast it for Infernal Contract. Cast infernal Contract with RRRR in pool for the next set of cards. Cast Seething Song and Burning Wish for your hatecard of choice. Remove what keeps you from winning, then cycle Street Wraith whilst cracking LED for Charbelcher. This one might take a lot of tweaking in order to fit the gamestate and is more of a general guideline than a step-for-step walkthrough (it assumes you still have all 4 LEDs remaining, for an instance).

Preside removing artifacts or creatures requires you to either have an extra mana in the pool whilst casting Meditate in order to compensate for the mana used by Spree/Lightning - this is why Thunder Clap/Crash is in the sideboard. If you don't have the extra mana don't forget that you can also substitute the last LED for a Lotus Petal and instead draw into it the next turn to fire off the Charbelcher.

[Gocho]

I like it a lot, it's a cool effect :cool:
The question that every Belcher player are thinking: Are this list better vs Blue decks that standard Belcher?

[JonBarber]

I went 3-1 splitting the top 4 at my local tournament here in Rochester. This was my list

4 Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
1 Taiga
1 Bayou

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Dark Ritual
4 Rites of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Tinder Wall
3 Manamorphose

SB
1 REB
1 Shattering Spree
1 Duress
1 Cave-in
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Reverent Silence
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Deathmark
Something else i don't remember

My matchups were:

Match 1 - Patrick Playing Sneak Attack

He won the die roll. Huge disadvantage for me. He goes first and drops a 20/20 serra avatar with haste.

Game two I go first. I start things off with 12 goblins. He can't beat the two turn clock and we go to game three.

He goes first and luckily doesn't kill me. Me with a smile on my face drop belcher and activate it. And OF COURSE I hit a Taiga at card number 9. Next turn he sneak attacks protean hulk into play. Loss

0-1

Match 2 - Suicide Black

I open a hand with belcher but one mana short of going off. He thoughtseize's me stealing away belcher. I draw my mana outlet. He goes and plays dark rit phyrexian negator. I draw empty the warrens and lay down 12 happy goblins. He can't handle it and loses.

Game two I open a hand of belcher, empty the warrens, land grant, lotus petal, rit of flame, seething song, seething song. He first turn thought seizes me, and takes away empty the warrens. I go, dropping belcher and activating it, and of course hitting taiga on the third card. I eventually activate belcher again and killing him.

1-1

Match 3 - Painter's Stone (Running FOW)

I knew I'd have to face blue at some point.. Game one I burning wish blowing up 3 LED's in the process. He doesn't FOW so I think I'm safe. I grab infernal tutor, he still doesn't FOW, so I grab belcher, and he forces it... And then grindstones in my face.

Game two I empty the warrens all over his FOW. I win.

Game three I get turn one Xantid swarm. 2 turn I belch on him.

2-1

Match 4 - Josh playing ANT (Pimped out completely)

Game one I lose the die roll and I try and drop Belch for the win but he chants me. He then procedes to double dark rit and ad nauseum me.

Game two I drop belcher and activate, but in response he drops angels grace. Sitting at one life, he has almost nothing he can do, so I'm able to build up enough to rebelch him for the win.

Game three he mulls to 5 (I figure hes looking for a chant) and he drops land and passes. I go, play lotus petal, no response from him, rite of flame, no response from him, desperate ritual, no response from him, LED, no response from him, and then exile simian spirit guide to drop belcher. He curses as he forgets that he can't respond to simian spirit guide. I belch for the win.

3-1

Top four split. Overall, I was pretty happy with how the deck ran. I did not like the fact that I fizzled twice, and because of that I'm thinking about removing the Bayou and dark rits for Street Wraiths.

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

Since this deck is bad against blue, and good against everything else-ish have people considered supplementing or replacing xantid swarm with goblin welder. Both are good against blue with welder having the bonus ability to more easily allow for multiple belches in the event of fizzling.

[Gocho]

Usually, the Blue strategy vs Belcher is to play counterspells targeting Big Ritual spells.
If I resolve Seething Song vs Blue, I'm going to play Empty the Warrens, not Belcher, so Welder can't recover it.

[JonBarber]

I went 3-1 (7-2) with Belcher yesterday at my local tournament. I moved down to one land belcher, removing the dark rits for street wraiths and the bayou for the 4th manamorphose. The deck performed excellently, never fizzling even once. I lost to Survival which sided in 10 hate cards against me. I actually made a play mistake game two where I should have won, but it happens to the best of us.

[junkdiver]

Hey Everybody,

Long time lurker, I think first time poster... Been watching the thread and reading everyone's ideas. Very cool stuff!

I picked up the deck recently after playing pox and fish, because I think the deck concept is awesome.

Currently I am playing the RG version after hitting bayou too many times on belcher activations. I used Wild Cantor instead of dark rit for a while, but honestly she sucks pretty bad in the RG version. You don't almost ever need the mana fixing in RG, and she then basically only adds to storm count. So I know it seems the consensus on Street Wraith is that he sucks, but I would rather have a chance at mana than no mana at all. He does make mulligan decisions harder, especially with 8 total draw effects (including manamorphose), but overall I think he is still a better choice than cantor.

Anyways, now that you know what version I am playing, here is my question:

How do I play against dredge -_- ?

I lost to dredge both games in a tournament over this weekend. First game I made 16 goblins turn 1. She made 9 zombies and an Iona naming red. Next game I made 10 goblins... same deal I got rocked early.

I have thought about trying to mulligan for belcher kills, but that seems dangerous because by the time I hit a hand with belcher it will be too slow to drop the belcher on the first turn, leaving me in a scary place to get cabal therapied to death.

Any thoughts?

[Aus-Rotten]

In my experience the match up vs Ichorid is generally 50/50. You'll win the games where you go the belcher route and lose the games you go the ETW route.

Also, if you're going to test Wild Cantor in any spot it's going to be in the Timber Wall slot, but you're correct you don't need mana fixing until you run a list with spoils and even then the difference between Cantor and Timber are pretty negligable.

[yankeedave]

I have picked this deck up again recently, and have an idea for a sideboard - as we have to pack GY hate, what do you guys think of putting 4 Leyline of the Void and 3 Helm of Obedience in as an alternate win against GY based decks, as well as against decks that bring in Pithing Needle on Belcher?

[JonBarber]

I have picked this deck up again recently, and have an idea for a sideboard - as we have to pack GY hate, what do you guys think of putting 4 Leyline of the Void and 3 Helm of Obedience in as an alternate win against GY based decks, as well as against decks that bring in Pithing Needle on Belcher?

Seems bad. Your devoting half the sb to one matchup that isn't even that bad for you. After Xantid Swarm you have 4 tool box cards left. I don't see how Helm of Obedience is even a win condition.. Explain it to me if I'm wrong. And pithing needle isn't THAT bad. Empty the warrens or burning wish for shattering spree.

[Hopo]

In short, if you have Leyline of the Void in play and activate Helm of Obedience (X>0) the opponent's whole library is removed from the game.

[JonBarber]

In short, if you have Leyline of the Void in play and activate Helm of Obedience (X>0) the opponent's whole library is removed from the game.

Interesting... I still don't really know if its worth it.

[Darkenslight]

I'd say that the Helmline combo would be a nice alternative to Belcher. bThery Needle Belch, you go, 'ok, HElm x=1, gg?'

[Dark Ritual]

X can't be zero on helm. Read the rules text. I don't see it helping at all; belcher is a one card combo, whereas leyline + helm is 2 cards that you need in hand. Seems a lot harder to set up unless you go the spoils route which is terribly weak against ichorid if you lose half your life using spoils.

Nice tournament report. Stupid sneak attack.

[Kilz88]

Ok guys, I have played this deck in the past and had a bit of success but I was thinking about it for the upcoming big events in legacy's future. For me mainly:

SCG Open: Indy
GP: Columbus
Legacy Champs

Here is my list and I need some help with the board. Plus what is everyones play/draw stratagy? I always thought you opt to draw but I am not sure if that is right against all decks due to daze. Also against what decks do you go off ASAP and what decks do you wait until they have lethal on board? Lastly what is your default plan if they are on the play and you see a blue dual land?

// Lands
1 Taiga
1 Bayou

// Creatures
4 Tinder Wall
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
3 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
4 Burning Wish
4 Land Grant
4 Dark Ritual

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 4 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Deathmark
SB: 3 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Goblin War Strike


Oh, and what the hell do I take out? I have been leaning towards manamorphose but...I honestly have no clue.

[JonBarber]

Ok guys, I have played this deck in the past and had a bit of success but I was thinking about it for the upcoming big events in legacy's future. For me mainly:

SCG Open: Indy
GP: Columbus
Legacy Champs

Here is my list and I need some help with the board. Plus what is everyones play/draw stratagy? I always thought you opt to draw but I am not sure if that is right against all decks due to daze. Also against what decks do you go off ASAP and what decks do you wait until they have lethal on board? Lastly what is your default plan if they are on the play and you see a blue dual land?

// Lands
1 Taiga
1 Bayou

// Creatures
4 Tinder Wall
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
3 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
4 Burning Wish
4 Land Grant
4 Dark Ritual

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 4 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Deathmark
SB: 3 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 Goblin War Strike


Oh, and what the hell do I take out? I have been leaning towards manamorphose but...I honestly have no clue.

Why do you want to take anything out? Its a pretty canned list that doesn't need anything else.

Honestly, I don't think this is the right deck for the meta you'll find at a "big" legacy event. Because big legacy events will be heavy in blue, and with the printing of mindbreak trap you really wont stand much of a chance. Look at tournament results, theres a reason this deck rarely top 8's with anything above 40 people.

[Damoxx]

Look at tournament results, theres a reason this deck rarely top 8's with anything above 40 people.

Your sure?
SCG: Philly 6th
SCG: LA 8th & T16
Side Event @ PT: SD: 6th
Side Event @ GP: Minneapolis: Top 2 Split between 2 belcher decks
GPT Madrid: 3rd
SCG: Richmond 9th

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Belcher&format=Legacy&sort=edate

[JonBarber]

Your sure?
SCG: Philly 6th
SCG: LA 8th & T16
Side Event @ PT: SD: 6th
Side Event @ GP: Minneapolis: Top 2 Split between 2 belcher decks
GPT Madrid: 3rd
SCG: Richmond 9th

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Belcher&format=Legacy&sort=edate

Counting side events is iffy. And most of those events on deckcheck are under 40 people, so my words hold true. Sure it pops up in the 4-8 occasionally, but its significantly better in meta's with lower numbers of people. Compare it to the number of top 8's by ANT, and its clear to see it doesn't put up the same results. It has 4 sb protection spells (5 if you count the duress), which really isn't enough in most developed metas. Your welcome to compete with it, but belcher decks are rarely seen as a serious threat. I play the deck and I love it, but I don't think I'd play it at any major events.

[Gocho]

Your sure?
SCG: Philly 6th
SCG: LA 8th & T16
Side Event @ PT: SD: 6th
Side Event @ GP: Minneapolis: Top 2 Split between 2 belcher decks
GPT Madrid: 3rd
SCG: Richmond 9th

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Belcher&format=Legacy&sort=edate

You miss, GP Madrid, 18th

[Forbiddian]

I consider Belcher to be a serious threat, but nobody plays it.

The other 4-0 deck at the Pro Tour side event was a Belcher player. I squeaked by with a bit of luck and he got eliminated by Enchantress of all things to finish in 5th or 6th place (extra round + cut to top 4, so he was out). I consistently see a Belcher or two hanging around the top tables. You can't confuse the lack of a tournament win (or the lack of extremely high-density high placement finishes) with the deck being bad. There just aren't very many people playing Belcher. I think just that guy in the PT and in the other two SCGs events (the ones we have data for), there were only like 6 people playing it and 4 of them finished 17th place or better.

I've never seen a Belcher player win less than half of its matches, and many that put up very impressive finishes.

You invited the ANT comparison, so I'll point this out: ANT has a few tournament wins, but also tons and tons of people play the deck. Saito and Do Anne are just the tip of the iceberg, you don't see the 50 or 100 ANT players who finished out of the money, out of day 2, and even with a sub-50% win ratio.

[yankeedave]

I piloted Belcher to 3-3 drop at Madrid and really enjoyed my day. I felt I had a chance against almost everyone and always won at least one game in every match. I would have won my last match before I dropped, but I kept a questionable hand and paid for it against discard. I feel that this deck is against a lot of the field, as long as you are willing to bring Xantid Swarm against every single deck in the format due to Mindbreak Trap!

[Kilz88]

When I said "take something out" I meant side out. Sorry for the confusion. I meant what do you guys take out for the 4 swarms and stuff. Also, I agree with the guys posting all the good placements. The deck in the past 6 months has actually been somewhere in the top 16 of a LOT of the big tournaments. Richmond was a big deal to me. It was 200+ players and it got 9th. Probably on tie breakers.

The good news about the meta is this, yes there are some blue decks, but there also is a TON of zoo. A match which this deck actually CANT lose. The only time it can is in the case of mindbreak trap which if you havenet noticed, no one actually uses. Don't get me wrong they totally should. Especially 43 Land. (Another auto-win for belcher). I'd say the worst match up for this deck is gonna be blue decks that also play removal like swords or lightning bolt. Because if they for some reason leave it in post board then you will probably lose you swarm. Decks like merfolk are a much better match up post board. They have too many "must counters" and all their counters are daze/cursecatcher.

Anyway, keep it coming guys, lemme know what you think.

[badjuju]

Counting side events is iffy. And most of those events on deckcheck are under 40 people, so my words hold true. Sure it pops up in the 4-8 occasionally, but its significantly better in meta's with lower numbers of people. Compare it to the number of top 8's by ANT, and its clear to see it doesn't put up the same results. It has 4 sb protection spells (5 if you count the duress), which really isn't enough in most developed metas. Your welcome to compete with it, but belcher decks are rarely seen as a serious threat. I play the deck and I love it, but I don't think I'd play it at any major events.

How is counting side events iffy? Serious players make it out to those too, and the top tables will always be filled with decent to good players. If you're top 8ing those, the deck is doing something right, dodging blue decks or not. You're also discounting the three recent SCG events it has placed in, as well as 18th place at the late 2200+ player GP Madrid.

I'm not saying the deck is the amazing answer to the format either, but I'm saying you're giving it a lot less credit than it deserves. The speed and resilience is actually pretty scary when you're on the other side of the table. And yes, Forbiddian has a point as well: very few people take the deck to major events because everyone always rags on how inconsistent the deck is. In all honesty, this is far from the truth, and these placements are testament. Considering most SCG events have only and will only ever have <5 Belcher players, those are some pretty solid results.

[yankeedave]

The deck is inconsistent, that is why it is known to be a glass cannon. You tend to take the first match, as people aren't expecting the deck, then lose the second one, and then win the 3rd when you are on the play again. Sadly, my meta has caught onto this and will mulligan aggressively into Mindbreak Trap, making the Swarm more necessary than ever, which turns their removal back on. I don't think I would take this to a major event again, but I did have a blast playing it at Madrid. I just got ver tired of having 35+ mins to kill every round!

Dave

[Pulp_Fiction]

I posted this on the storm boards, figured I should post it here as well. I took this deck to my local tournament and made it to the finals, but lost out in the final match. Here is the list I played followed by a very brief summary:

4x Belcher
3x EtW
4x Burning Wish
4x Blood Moon

4x ESG
4x SSG
4x Tinder Wall
4x Street Wraith

4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
4x Desperate Ritual
4x LED
4x Petal
4x Mox
4x Land Grant
1x Taiga

SB
4x Xantid Swarm
3x Shattering Spree
3x Serum Powder

Wish Targets
1x EtW
1x Telemin Performance
1x Shattering Spree
1x Reverent Silence
1x Pyroclasm

Round 1 - UG Survival Madness w/ Force and Daze with Chill in the board.
G1 - I ask if he has a Force, turn 1 Empty for 14 on the play beats most decks in the format!
G2 - I board in Swarms for Blood Moons and resolve a Swarm on turn 1. He drops Chill on turn 2 which is just sickening, as my has has Rite, Desperate and Seething Song. No matter though, a turn before I die I draw my last initial mana source and Belch him out with Xantid protection!

Round 2 - Zoo
G1 - Turn 1 Belcher, turn 2 activate.
G2 - Turn 1 Empty for 12 ... he loses is very short order.

Round 3 - Glimpse Elves
G1 - Turn 1 Belcher Activate with Land Grant in hand!
G2 - Turn 1 Empty for 12 easily gets there.

Round 4 - ID

Round 5 - ID

Round 6 - Reanimator
G1 - Turn 1 Moon but he has 2/3 Petals in his deck ... Iona on red on turn 2.
G2 - Both mull to 6, I Empty for 8 turn 1, run into Force, but my 6 goblins get there!
G3 - I mull to 5 and he mulls to 3! This was sick. I win on turn 3 after I rip Belcher off the top on turn 2 and activate it turn 3!

Round 7 - Uwb CB Weird Stuff
G1 - Turn 1 Moon and I proceed to draw pure fucking shit then get locked out of the game after he draws both his basic islands and casts CB then Jace.
G2 - Turn 1 Swarm, turn 4 Belcher + LED.
G3 - Turn 1 Moon locks him out this time. I Ritual out a SSG and he gets there in 8 turns! Moon was pure devastation in this matchup.

Round 8 - Piece of shit who played out the top 4 at 1:20 A.M. and the finals at 2:15 A.M. on a wednesday night (some of us have work during the weekdays, inconsiderate dick): UWg Probasco CB garbage
G1 - He gets a nuts draw and I mull down to 5 since I am unable to find an IMS or a wincon.
G2 - My opening hand is: 2x ESG, Tinder Wall, Desperate Ritual, Rite of Flame, Empty the Warrens, Petal. He keeps his opening 7 so I know he has Force, I play out Petal, Wall, sac wall and decide to cast Desperate Ritual first since if that gets countered I save Rite for another day, it resolves, I play Rite, he Forces, double ESG into Empty for 12, GG.
G3 - I mull to 5 or 6, he keeps his opening 7 yet again, and it seems he just has an answer for everything I do. The CB shit normally doesn't run this good, but his deck was just loving him. I EtW on turn 2 for 8. They get in a swing before he plays Trinket Mage fetching EE. He then plays: CB on turn 4, Top + Goyf on turn 5, another Goyf on turn 6. Sad times :( I leave the store at 2:45 A.M. ..... we now have a new store policy to avoid this in the future, but come on, this is fucking ridiculous. I don't give a shit that I lost, its the principal, this is probably the most selfish act I have ever seen in Magic, even one of the store owners (the one who was there at the time) was advising a split because he ... has to work in the morning, but he couldn't force a split so we can leave. Even after the owner said "lets wrap this up", he asked the owner if we could pick up the finals next wednesday and the owner just scoffed and walked away, as we began to play out the finals.

I have to say, Blood Moon was .... AWESOME! The matchups where it was worthless it is still better than Manamorphose in every way. Moon adds the same amount of mana that Manamorphose does and gives you 15 bombs instead of 11. Extra storm that Manamorphose adds does not make up for how amazing this card is when you have to mulligan and open up that sick had with 2x rituals and the Burning Wish you can't possibly cast but see a Moon. This list is just stupid fast and is certainly the most consistent Belcher list I have ever tested. The board was great. Serum Powder is there for the matchups you have to mull really hard for a Belcher kill, or is just better than Moon, Wraith, or Seething Song (always sided out 3 in the blue matchups and brought in Powder).

I tried siding in the 4th EtW in the CB matchups so I can keep a hand without Swarm and Powder gives me the ability to mulliigan aggressively into it. I am not sure if this is the correct play but, it seemed to work out pretty well. I have has such bad experience with BW in the past against CB because it forces you to go all-in. I really want to replace Telemin Performance with some kind of sorcery that makes a flying token of some kind so that card isn't totally worthless. I just really like EtW for playing into Force and defying that card and not making me keep marginal hands with Swarm in them.

Telemin Performance was not played but I didn't play against a single combo deck or Garden. I still really like Telemin Performance, especially against Reanimator, that would be cool as hell and most likely better than Goblin tokens that attack once and meet Blazing Archon a turn later; your chances of hitting an Iona are quite good! Thoughts, comments?

[BreathWeapon]

The Bloodmoon strategy is really cool, I tried using Bloodmoon/Magus of the Moon in the past in the G/r builds and they just randomly boned the opponent when I had an otherwise unkeepable hand. I also managed to Living Wish into a Magus of the Moon quite often and make opponent's just drop their jaw to that awesome bit of tech.

Also, I think Balance of Power (yeah, look it up) is a seriously underrated SB card for Belcher considering it's clearly superior to Diminishing Returns on T1 and you easily have the mana for it compared to TES considering Manamorphose and all. It's a significant improvement to the deck's non Empty the Warrens win rates for sure. Go go random crap from Portal :)

Not certain what you'd use for flying token generator Sorceries other than Decree of Justice, but I've tried it before and the CC was too much.

[paK0]

The deck is inconsistent,


I don't think so, the deck can actually go off fairly consistently.

The main reson why noone plays this: There is no skill involved. You mulligan until you have something keepable and then hope the opponent doesn't have anything to stop you.

Of course sometimes this will pay off, but especially players who are better than most of their opponents would rather decide the match with playskill than with praying.

[Pulp_Fiction]

The Bloodmoon strategy is really cool, I tried using Bloodmoon/Magus of the Moon in the past in the G/r builds and they just randomly boned the opponent when I had an otherwise unkeepable hand. I also managed to Living Wish into a Magus of the Moon quite often and make opponent's just drop their jaw to that awesome bit of tech.

Also, I think Balance of Power (yeah, look it up) is a seriously underrated SB card for Belcher considering it's clearly superior to Diminishing Returns on T1 and you easily have the mana for it compared to TES considering Manamorphose and all. It's a significant improvement to the deck's non Empty the Warrens win rates for sure. Go go random crap from Portal :)

Not certain what you'd use for flying token generator Sorceries other than Decree of Justice, but I've tried it before and the CC was too much.

Blood Moon is a lot better than Magus IMOP. Firespout can't answer it! Living Wish is interesting, it seems a worthy replacement to Street Wraith since he serves no other purpose than adding randomness and making the deck 56 cards. But there are numerous hands where you open up all acceleration + Street Wraith, were that a Living Wish you could wish for Magus or Deus t1, or in the blue matchups you could get Swarm.

What do you think would be worthy Living Wish targets in a Rg build? Off the top of my head I think:

Magus of the Moon is an auto-include.

Deus of Calamity would be absolutely fucking devastating turn 1 against almost anything, and it seems superior to Demigod of Revenge in that it doesn't give them a chance to recover, it just Stone Rains them until they are dead.

Ingot Chewer seems excellent as it makes Living Wish another out to CotV or Trinisphere or Needle.

I think 1 more would be excellent so I could cut Telemin Performance and have 4x BW targets, 4x LW targets, and 4x Swarm and 3x Serum Powder in the board. I loved this thing, it helped out a TON in some problem matchups.

What other creature could you wish for that would be devastating? Eternal Witness seems meh, Blurred Mongoose and Scragnoth are funny as hell but probably not very effective. How many good targets can you think of BreathWeapon?

[Gocho]

Don't you have too many "Non-add-mana" cards?. 4 LW, 4 BW, 3 Empty the Warrens and 4 Goblin charbelcher.
This could let you many hands with 2 of them and not enough mana to explode at T1.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Don't you have too many "Non-add-mana" cards?. 4 LW, 4 BW, 3 Empty the Warrens and 4 Goblin charbelcher.
This could let you many hands with 2 of them and not enough mana to explode at T1.

You forgot 4x Blood Moon as well. And no, I have not cut a single bit of acceleration for any of these cards. Manamorphose is shit so thats a dead spot, and Street Wraith is filler, so not missing out on anything there.

And I know the response to this "well just think of SW as acceleration", which is quite wrong, about 67% of the time SW will be what you think it is and the other you will draw additional wincons which adds, IMOP, excessive variance. I like Street Wraith in the deck but ... he is quite worthless, if they ever printed another green/red ritual he would be out of the deck so fast.

But I am not advocating that anyone play my lists, just testing things out and trying a new approach to Belcher. Now that Stax and Dragon Stompy have died out in my meta, it seems a great time to bring the turn-1-wonder back! I don't think Living Wish is pushing things too far at all, jesus, it adds threat density and 2/3 of the entire deck is acceleration! But I will see how it works out. LW may be pure shit, you just never know.

[Gocho]

I would not play Manamorphose AND Street Wraith (or Blood Moon AND Living Wish in the slots), but I agree that LW would worth the test.

What about Vexing Susher in the Wish target free slot?

[JonBarber]

You forgot 4x Blood Moon as well. And no, I have not cut a single bit of acceleration for any of these cards. Manamorphose is shit so thats a dead spot, and Street Wraith is filler, so not missing out on anything there.

And I know the response to this "well just think of SW as acceleration", which is quite wrong, about 67% of the time SW will be what you think it is and the other you will draw additional wincons which adds, IMOP, excessive variance. I like Street Wraith in the deck but ... he is quite worthless, if they ever printed another green/red ritual he would be out of the deck so fast.

But I am not advocating that anyone play my lists, just testing things out and trying a new approach to Belcher. Now that Stax and Dragon Stompy have died out in my meta, it seems a great time to bring the turn-1-wonder back! I don't think Living Wish is pushing things too far at all, jesus, it adds threat density and 2/3 of the entire deck is acceleration! But I will see how it works out. LW may be pure shit, you just never know.

What your doing is messing up the ratio of accel to non accel cards in the deck though. Street wraiths and manamorphoses essentially remove 8 cards from the deck. That gives you a 11:41 ratio of accel vs. win cons. Thats roughly a 1-4 average meaning you should have roughly one win con in a hand of 7. If you remove streeth wraiths and manamorphoses for other shit, your now looking at a 19:41 ratio, which then almost becomes a 1-3 instead of 1-4. This will make the average hand have 2 win cons it, meaning less acceleration. On the surface the draw cards seem useless, but they play a very important role in the deck.

[Pulp_Fiction]

What your doing is messing up the ratio of accel to non accel cards in the deck though. Street wraiths and manamorphoses essentially remove 8 cards from the deck. That gives you a 11:41 ratio of accel vs. win cons. Thats roughly a 1-4 average meaning you should have roughly one win con in a hand of 7. If you remove streeth wraiths and manamorphoses for other shit, your now looking at a 19:41 ratio, which then almost becomes a 1-3 instead of 1-4. This will make the average hand have 2 win cons it, meaning less acceleration. On the surface the draw cards seem useless, but they play a very important role in the deck.

I am not advocating playing what I do, just trying a new approach. And I promise you, I have played a lot of storm combo, I understand the numbers. It would be nice to not lose to a single Duress though. Manamorphose is garbage, I would not run this card ever, Street Wraith .. ehh, it gets boarded out most of the time that Moons are worthwhile, threat density is important, but I understand your arguments.

[NiRVeS]

Balance of Power

Slithermuse is strictly better, although it's not fetchable with Burning Wish. It's another possible Living Wish-target though, for those who are considering that route.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Slithermuse is strictly better, although it's not fetchable with Burning Wish. It's another possible Living Wish-target though, for those who are considering that route.

Forgot about him, Slithermuse is interesting, its a lot like another Serum Powder, especially against a deck like Enchantress or Lands where you mull into a hand of all acceleration and LW, you open 7 cards and have great chances of hitting a win con with the decks threat density. I am not sure how necessary it is but its certainly interesting.

I have been giving a lot of thought to Tomb or Urami and Gargoyle Castle. I like Castle better since it does not require an LED to cast.

Karakas is also an awesome answer to Reanimator, but between all the Moon effects and pure speed, playing defense with probably the most explosive deck in the format seems bad.

[j-flo]

I see people using Ingot Chewer over Shattering Spree. What are the pros and cons for both cards? I am trying to figure out which one I want to use.

[JonBarber]

I see people using Ingot Chewer over Shattering Spree. What are the pros and cons for both cards? I am trying to figure out which one I want to use.

You see people playing him in belcher? Well its pretty obvious what the difference is: shattering spree is a sorcery, ingot is a creature. Therefore burning wish can get shattering spree. Also, shattering spree can take out multiple targets. There shouldn't really be any question there as to whats better..

[j-flo]

Yes, they are using ingot chewer in the sideboard. Multiple belcher decks on deck check and the deck that top sixteened at the most recent star city games open were all using 4 chewer in their board. There has to be a reason behind this right?

[Infinitium]

Takes out Chalice@1 for R less, can somewhat fight through countertop by aiming for the Top and using artifact mana to combo out that turn. That, and targeting multiple artifacts is rarely relevant (although bein able to take out Needle against an opponent holding counters is nice). Overall I'd say SS is better since it is more versatile versus blue decks, which are Belchers only truly bad MU.

[soiber2000]

Has anybody tested fork maindaeck to fight counters? It is not absolutely dead against other decks and can destroy a single fow, wich is the main problem of the deck

[Ozymandias]

You can't really directly fight fow- you don't have the slots. You need to run probabilities, bait counters, and rely on the deck's extreme speed. Opening on ETW doesn't hurt either. If you did want to fight it, Pyroblast or Guttural Response would be better anyway- Blast because it adds to Storm, Response because it imprints better and can be cast off a spare ESG/SSG.

[soiber2000]

You can't really directly fight fow- you don't have the slots. You need to run probabilities, bait counters, and rely on the deck's extreme speed. Opening on ETW doesn't hurt either. If you did want to fight it, Pyroblast or Guttural Response would be better anyway- Blast because it adds to Storm, Response because it imprints better and can be cast off a spare ESG/SSG. Yes, you are probably wright. Last year I played belcher in a 70 people tournament, with 3 pyroblast maindeck but i was unlucky and didn´t see one in all tournament. I went 4-3 losing to canadian (almost unwinable), ant (due to echoing truth maindeck) and muc (due to echoing truth maindeck again!!). I was so disappointed that forgot about belcher for a while, metagame was full of canadians and pyroblast didn´t help me. But now in the current metagame i think it is a great choice, because any opponent has to mull to fow. I thin the worst slot is manamorhpose, and i am trying to fit something better, but i don't find it.

[Gocho]

Pulp Fiction, tries Blood Moon in Manamorphose slot and works for him.

[Pulp_Fiction]

It works pretty well. Ravaging most of the format!

@soiber2000: It helps when you actually read the thread, or even look 3-4 posts in advance to your own post.

[soiber2000]

@Pulp_Fiction: I read the thread, Gocho is the one who has said about your idea, but if I don't say anything about blood moon is: first, because I find it out of place and second because I haven't tested it and can't say if it works or not.

On the other hand, I'm trying to help improving this deck and others with my expirience, which is not short, and I don't think you have to say this, because it sounds a bit derogatory, and I also feel that is not necessary.

[JonBarber]

It works pretty well. Ravaging most of the format!

@soiber2000: It helps when you actually read the thread, or even look 3-4 posts in advance to your own post.

I'm still trying to decide how I feel about blood moon. I certainly see where its benefits are, but at the same time I feel its too defensive of a move for an offensive deck. Not to mention, blood moon doesn't touch force. I'mg gonna play test with it a little more.

[yankeedave]

So, just got back in from the Old Skool tournament and am quite happy having won!

I decided to play Belcher, the RG version, with Street Wraiths and Manamorphose, with Blood Moon and Telemin Performance in the Sideboard, as Tom wanted to borrow one of my Goyf's, so I didn't play Team America, which I am testing at the moment!

I went 4-1 on the day, with a very varied field. Glen, the TO, didn't really have the numbers for Legacy or Extended, so he combined the 2 and we had 10 players in the end, 5 with recognisable Legacy decks, 4 Extended Decks and 1 Coalition deck from the Phyrexia VS the Coalition! He was making up numbers and was only playing for fun! Amazingly, he managed to take a match!

Anyways, onto the action!

Round 1 and I am paired against Tom playing Canadian Thresh - 0-2 - Why do I have to face a control deck first round? Good news is, its the only one in the room and as we are playing 5 rounds with no top 8, I feel like this is probably the best time to lose to it!

Round 2 and its Slivers, but not Counterslivers or Meathooks, but just an 82 card deck with no Sideboard! 2-1 - I Mulliganed to 5 in the first game and didn't see a win con til very late!

Round 3 - Glen playing Treasure Hunt Lands using Lightning Storm as his win con! So he has 7 non land cards and 53 lands! It really was the antithesis of my deck! 2-0 - I had heard him annouce Treasure Hunt in an earlier so figured that he was either running no creatures or, if he was, they would be awesome, so went for the Telemin Performance win and he didn't have any creatures! 2nd game, I Belched on the first turn with no lands in my deck!

Round 4 - Hughes with Zoo - 2-0 - I belched in one game and ran him over with Goblins in game 2!

Round 5 - At this stage there are only 2 of us on 9 points, so its us 2 for the Winner takes all!
Simon playing Sligh - 2-0 - I make 12 gobbos on turn 1 and ride them home. Game 2, I mulligan to 5 and keep a hand without a win con, but draw a Empty the Warrens on my second turn, make 12 gobbos and have to race the Sligh deck, as I am already on 13 life. His turn he makes a Keldon Marauders and pings me for one. I attack for 11, leaving 1 goblin behind to block the Marauder. This turned out the be the best plan, as he had enough to kill me if I had gone all in. As it was, he had to burn the blocker and get in with his dude. Next turn, I left a guy behind again, and this stopped him killing me with a Factory!

I WIN! 7 packs and a nice feeling. I decide to crack my packs, as they are all Worldwake and I hit the Jace, the Mind Sculpter! I shout across to the dealer and he offers me £30 for it, and as that is what I have paid out for today, i snap his hand off!

A brilliant day and many thanks to Glen for running another excellent tourney!

Dave

[JonBarber]

I went 3-1 at my local tourny today with belcher. It was DEF the wrong call for the meta, but somehow I pulled it out. Round 1 I played Landstill and beat it 2-0. Played around daze and force to get the win. Round 2 I played Ninjastill packing forces. Won that matchup 2-0. Round three I played Surpeme Blue and thats where things got bad. They maindeck Force, daze, spell snare, chalice, EE, and standstill. If there was a way it was physically possible for me to win this please enlighten me. Haha, I actually won one match, but couldn't do it twice. Round 4 I played u/w tempo (also packing force) and beat it 2-0. Despite playing against force every round I still pulled out 3 wins. Goes to show how stupid awesome this deck can be.

[Patrunkenphat7]

This deck seems fun to play, but do people actually advocate taking it to bigger tournaments? It seems like there are very few opportunities to outplay your opponents, and matchups are either awesome or horrible. I have play against this deck many times, but I have never played with it. Just wondering what people think about its validity at 8+ round tournaments. Thanks!

[Darkenslight]

@Patrunkenphat: this and Dredge, are pretty much the definitions of the Glassjaw deck; if people are fully prepared for it, you'll go 0-2 drop; if not, then chances are you'll be at the higher tables all day. If Belcher ever got something that made it consist6ent turn 1-2, then we'd we weeping in joy. :D

[yankeedave]

I love this deck to pieces. Sadly, I ALWAYS get paired against Control in the first round and end up in the loser's bracket all day at the larger tournaments I take it too. Sometimes I win out, and sometimes I dont. But it can be frustrating to play this deck against the wrong field!

Dave

[AcidFiend]

Is anyone interested in helping test the viability of a no-land belcher? Its just hard for me to find testing partners atm that are happy to play 100 games against a Belcher deck :p I believe its briefly been brought up before but I wanted to revisit it. This is not a primer or something, I don't claim to have an optimised list. I'm just sharing ideas as belcher hasn't changed much in a few years - perhaps we need to question some staples - such as land :D

Why no Land?
-Primarily, it means when you activate Belcher, you win. No whiffing calculations required. No land frees up a number of places in the deck, the main 5-6 being land + land grant. This leads me to a secondary reason to drop lands; being able to drop Land Grant.

What is wrong with Land Grant?
-Running 4 Land Grant can lead to more hands that require mulliganing, while simultaneously not doing enough. While I believe Land Grant is a necessary evil in 1-2 land lists (and Storm lists), its inherently average. Two examples are any hand with Land Grant + Two Land or 1 Land & 2+ Grants. If you could replace those 6 cards with accelerants or broader tutors, those hands then become better. For a deck that relies heavily on mulling into a combo, this goes a way to helping improve its consistency.
-With Land Grant + Land, you have used two cards to net you a +1 mana. Thats one of the least efficient mana-producers in the deck. I understand its re-usable, however I want to go off as soon as possible, I don't need to be producing mana for three turns. Chrome Mox is the same efficiency, however Chrome Mox doesn't increase Charbelcher whiff so I'll let it slide for now. Chrome Mox can't be Wastelanded either, which lets face it is rampant in Legacy and has been known to randomnly screw Combo players.
-Land Grant gives your opponent so much information! They can see exactly when you can/can't go off and can play accodingly. This is a disadvantage on varying levels depending on your matchup, but it is never negligible. I don't need to go into too many specifics but game 1 lets say they don't know what you're playing. Sure you might play a Lotus Petal or something firsts turn and they might put you on some kind of combo, but its not the same as giving them a free cavity inspection of your grip. Players will play in their best interest accodingly, which is something you can prevent by not playing Land Grant.

Why no Empty the Warrens?
-A potential SB kill condition, I don't want Empty to the the focus of the deck at all for the number of times I've randomnly lost despite making a bunch of tokens. There are a lot of hosers for this such as EE, Rhox War Monk, Tabernacle, Pyroclasm, Moat, etc. Yes there are hosers for everything blah blah, but for me Goblins have been much slower and less consistent than a Belcher kill. After you drop the gobbos you need at least two more turns to win. This is too slow and thus I want to drop it. Also since I have no Land Grant, the Storm on this badboy is usually -1 to boot.

Sample list:
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

4 Goblin Charbelcher

4 Manamorphose
4 Spoils
4 Street Wraith
3 Serum Powder
1 Infernal Tutor

The weakest card here is ESG, but we *need* 0 mana accelerants. This deck still requires colourless in a number of its spells. There is the potential to use Spanish Inquisition tech here and Summoning Pact into ESG; that is another 2-card '+1' however you don't have to reveal your hand to use Pact. It does have a different potentially worse drawback, but I digress... ESG can also be imprinted/exiled for mana for Xantid Swarm out of the board.

Seething Song usually does what you need it to. Sure sometimes you'll have 5 and only be able to cast Belcher but not activate it ('wasting' 1 mana in the process). However it is still playable and will otherwise help you get to 7 mana in one turn often, or else serves as Chrome Mox food.

I suppose it could be said that the likes of Spoils+Street+Serum clog your deck as much (if not more than) land grant + land do. If & when better cards come along/are tested in these slots they might be dropped. It definitely has its weaknesses, as sometimes you'll top deck into a Serum or lack black mana etc, but all-in-all I seem to be able to off very quickly quite consistently with this. At least enough that I believe a no-land build is worth investigating.

The problems of this approach may prove more apparant in Games 2 & 3, where typically games might last longer / you have to fight through hate. I have a provisional SB atm of:
-4 Ingot Chewer
-4 Xantid Swarms
-4 Unmask
-3 Empty the Warrens

Anyways if anyone has tried something along these lines or has opinions let me know :)

[AcidFiend]

Is anyone interested in helping test the viability of a no-land belcher? Its hard for me to find testing partners atm that are happy to play 100 games against a Belcher deck :p I believe its briefly been brought up before but I wanted to revisit it. This is not a primer or something, I don't claim to have an optimised list. I'm just sharing ideas as belcher hasn't changed much in a few years - perhaps we need to question some staples - such as land :D

Why no Land?
-Primarily, no Lands means when you activate Belcher, you win. No whiffing calculations required. It frees up a number of places in the deck. This leads me to a secondary reason to drop lands; being able to drop Land Grant.

What is wrong with Land Grant?
-Running 4 Land Grant can lead to more hands that require mulliganing, while simultaneously not doing enough. While I believe Land Grant is a necessary evil in 1-2 land lists (and Storm lists), its inherently average. Two examples are any hand with Land Grant + Two Land or 1 Land & 2+ Grants. If you could replace those 6 cards with accelerants or broader tutors, those hands then become better. For a deck that relies heavily on mulling into a combo, this goes a way to helping improve its consistency.
-With Land Grant + Land, you have used two cards to net you a +1 mana. Thats one of the least efficient mana-producers in the deck. I understand its re-usable, however I want to go off as soon as possible, I don't need to be producing mana for three turns. Chrome Mox is the same efficiency, however Chrome Mox doesn't increase Charbelcher whiff so I'll let it slide for now. Chrome Mox can't be Wastelanded either, which lets face it is rampant in Legacy and has been known to randomnly screw Combo players.
-Land Grant gives your opponent so much information! They can see exactly when you can/can't go off and can play accodingly. This is a disadvantage on varying levels depending on your matchup, but it is never negligible. Players will play in their best interest according to the information they have - something I wish to deny them until its too late.

Why no Empty the Warrens?
-A potential SB kill condition, I don't want Empty to the the focus of the deck at all. We've all been there when you've made a bunch of tokens and still lost. There are a lot of hosers for this such as EE, Rhox War Monk, Tabernacle, Pyroclasm, Moat, etc. Yes there are hosers for everything (zomg Pithing Needle on Belcher owns) blah blah, but for me Goblins have been much slower and less consistent than a Belcher kill. After you drop the gobbos you need at least two more turns to win. This is too slow and thus I want to drop it. Also since I have no Land Grant, the Storm on this badboy is usually -1 to boot.

Sample list:
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

4 Goblin Charbelcher

4 Manamorphose
4 Spoils
4 Street Wraith
3 Serum Powder
1 Infernal Tutor

The weakest card on paper ESG, but we need 0 mana accelerants and its been fine in testing. This deck still requires colourless in a number of its spells. There is the potential to use Spanish Inquisition tech here and Summoning Pact into ESG; that is another 2-card '+1' however you don't have to reveal your hand to use Pact. It does have a different potentially worse drawback, but I digress... ESG can also be imprinted/exiled for mana for Xantid Swarm out of the board.

Seething Song usually does what you need it to. Sure sometimes you'll have 5 and only be able to cast Belcher but not activate it ('wasting' 1 mana in the process). However it is still playable and will otherwise help you get to 7 mana in one turn often, or else serves as Chrome Mox food.

I suppose it could be said that the likes of Spoils+Street+Serum clog your deck as much (if not more than) land grant + land do. If & when better cards come along/are tested in these slots they might be dropped. It definitely has its weaknesses, as sometimes you'll top deck into a Serum or lack black mana etc, but all-in-all I seem to be able to off very quickly quite consistently with this. At least enough that I believe a no-land build is worth investigating.

As far as playing the deck, most of the time you see a Serum Powder, you mulligan (there have been hands when I could go off with just the 6 ignoring the Powder). Anything without a Belcher or Tutor/Cyclers I mulligan. Things get tricky when you have like 2 Street Wraith, LED, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Manamorphose, ESG. I'd probably keep that hand and just try to something with my 3 'draw' spells and maybe 1-2 turns. Anyways this is a Belcher thread so I don't need to go into specifics - everyone knows how this badboy works.

The problems of this 'no land' approach may prove more apparant in Games 2 & 3, where typically games might last longer / you have to fight through hate. I have a provisional SB atm of:
-4 Ingot Chewer
-4 Xantid Swarms
-4 Unmask
-3 Empty the Warrens

Anyways if anyone has tried something along these lines or has opinions let me know :)

[popiezhius]

Two examples are any hand with Land Grant + Two Land or 1 Land & 2+ Grants.
Why You worry so much about the possibility to have 3 of 5/6 cards in Your starting hand? This is possiblle only in theory and in practice they usually are not worse than hands without win condition.

[AcidFiend]

I listed many reasons why I wanted to test dropping those 6 cards. The example you list is one of the weaker ones I agree. Fact remains it is not purely 'theory'; while it may be a small % chance, I have drawn those hands before on more than one occasion. Popiezhius: What reasons are there to include Land Grant & 2-Lands over other tutors/mana producers? I think they are suboptimal thats all.

[Vacrix]

I think if you are going to play no-land belcher than it would only be playable over SI if you could consistently get a faster clock. Whats your goldfish been like? +60% turn 1?
I'm going to guess that its just going to be like SI that loses harder to force, having to invest more cards to go off than SI and likely being slower. I think its best to stick to EtW and Wish, and Blood Moon in the MD or Board. Otherwise, there isn't really a good reason to play this over SI.

EDIT:
Btw I'm always down to build a faster glass cannon. Count me in on testing if you can start pushing your turn 1's past 70%. Otherwise, I'll keep playing Pact SI.

[yankeedave]

@Acidfiend - I just worry that without the Wishes and the EtW's win cons, you are stone cold to Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Damping Matrix, any kind of discard on the play, and even more vulnerable to counterspells. Like Vacrix, I am all for Glass Cannon tactics, but I don't feel that reducing your win cons (even with the inclusion of Serum Powders) is a path to faster, more consistent wins.

I also worry that by taking out the Land Grants and the lands (either one or two) that you have reduced your Initial Mana Sources (IMS). This deck already runs as much free acceleration as possible, but that one land can make the difference a lot of the time. I agree that Land Grant is an awful top deck when you already have all the land out of your deck, but I feel that the ability to pull that land out of your deck is significantly better than not running those mana sources in the first place.

I did a large amount of testing last year with Landless Unpowered Belcher in Vintage last year and found that while the deck is painfully explosive, you have to mulligan very hard to get good hands, even with Serum Powder. My fear is that by taking out IMS's, you will have to remove more and more hands that have either an IMS, or a win con, but not both, thus reducing your chances of drawing them with the next hand, or, even worse, having both, but no acceleration. Then you have a tough choice. Do you ship it back and get something worse or do you see what you can develop? Also, Serum Powders are a shite topdeck when you need an accelerant to pop your Belcher.

Also, how many times have you killed yourself to Spoils. I found that it was very subptimal in my testing (see several pages ago, I think) and often wished for a Dark Ritual, or a Belcher and just killed myself! I found this was happening more than I would like, as this is a deck that already loses to so many things that I don't like helping my opponent along!

For reference, this is my current list:

Maindeck:

1x Taiga
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Manamorphose
3x Empty the Warrens
4x Land Grant
4x Street Wraith
4x Rite of Flame
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Seething Song
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Tinder Wall
4x Chrome Mox
4x Burning Wish


Sideboard:


1x Empty the Warrens
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Reverent Silence
1x Hull Breach1x Telemin Performance
4x Blood Moon
4x Xantid Swarm
2x Shattering Spree

[Ib21]

Hey all, I took Belcher to the SCG 5k Orlando Legacy Open yesterday and did fairly well. I went 4-3, losing my last match which would have put me in the top 16, I placed 29th overall. I lost to a Countertop deck, Merfolk, and Dredge (very unfortunate mulligans on my part and very broken dredges on his part, but a real nice dude otherwise so it wasn't a big deal). I smashed Zoo, ANT, R/b Goblins, and some random janky deck. I don't think ill be able to give a good play by play report, but I won many games on the back of Empty the Warrens, and quite a few Belcher kills too. I play RGb version with Dark Rituals and Bayou, and found that I loved the explosiveness of Dark Ritual even if it messes with the consistency somewhat. I never really had a problem casting it though. If anyone wants to see my exact list just let me know, but its pretty standard. My sideboard was:

4 x Ingot Chewer
4 x Xantid Swam
1 x Duress
1 x Goblin War Strike
1 x Diminishing Returns
1 x Empty the Warrens
1 x Infernal Tutor
1 x Reverent Silence
1 x Tendrils of Agony

I never used Ingot, the Swarm won me one game in the Merfolk match, Duress stopped ANT, and Goblin War Strike helped end my Zoo match on turn 2 both games thanks to a combo of early Dark Rituals, Rite of Flames, Lotus Petals, and Burning Wish, Emptying for 12. I used DReturns once against Goblins to build a massive storm count but got lucky and ended up with a Belcher kill. Sick card, but really luck based moreso than others. Reverent Silence and ToA weren't used. Overall, Belcher kicked some ass yesterday...had a lot of fun.

EDIT: One of my teammates brought Belcher as well, RG with one land and Street Wraiths, and she dominated early on too. She is one of the feature matches on SCG.com if you're interested. She got knocked out by the usual blue culprits later on but was 4-0 going to the final rounds of Swiss. So the lesson is- Belcher is sick as hell and still strong, just avoid blue! I think we knew that though.

[kicks_422]

It's consistent enough to explode Turn 1 most of the time. Seriously, it's most of the time just a matter of your opponent having a Force of Will or not.

[pokezel]

I have been playing 1-Land Belcher for the past year and a half and have loved it every tournament.

Here is my current list:
// Lands
1 [B] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [SC] Goblin War Strike
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [LG] Chain Lightning

I swear by 1 land. The deck is so consistent as it is, I see no reason to lower the probability of the belcher kill SIGNIFICANTLY in order to make it more consistent. I will say outright that I haven't tested 2-land very much, but I have been more than pleased with this build. Everyone I know who started with 2-land is now playing 1-land.

In tournaments with over 40 people I have top eighted 4 out of 6 of them with this deck. Either I am lucky, have dumb metagames, or this deck is good.

My board is for an unknown metagame. Most matchups are an autowin, but blue is the only difficult match-up. Thats why the board is built with only blue hate. If I found my meta shifting towards stax and stompy decks, I would add Ingot Chewers and Shattering Sprees likely replacing RED and Pyroblast.

This deck preys on an unsuspecting meta. When people don't know how to play against it, it's nearly impossible for you to lose. I play this deck because it's fun and because it's still low on the radar. Once this deck is seen as a big threat, its value will plummet. It will still be good, but it wont be nearly as potent as I have experienced it. I don't think it has much value at high level tournaments with 9+ rounds, but I'll be playing it at a GP this summer hoping to prove myself wrong.

[flrn]

Took the deck yesterday to my local store to play four rounds of swiss. I ended up 2-2 losing against Canadian ******** and Reanimator. I propably should include Blasts over Duress in the board, to have something to answer Force of Will. If i do that, i also can go for the fourth Blood Moon main and cut the Bayou. I didn't lose a game due to the fact, that my belcher didn't do enough damage. Blood Moon won me a game against Canadian and i think it's a good inclusion. The loss against Reanimator was quite unlucky. I had three turns to draw a single Manasource with Xantid Swarm already on the board and i topdeck 2 Belcher's and a Burning Wish. Well bad luck. Since it was my first tourney with the deck i still think i did some misplays, but im learning to handle the deck.

4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
4 Tinder Wall
4 Burning Wish
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens
3 Blood Moon
1 Bayou
1 Taiga

Sideboard:

4 Duress
4 Shattering Spree
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Hull Breach

[Vacrix]

The loss against Reanimator was quite unlucky. I had three turns to draw a single Manasource with Xantid Swarm already on the board and i topdeck 2 Belcher's and a Burning Wish. Well bad luck. Since it was my first tourney with the deck i still think i did some misplays, but im learning to handle the deck.

I've been throwing around the idea in the SI forum of running Planar Void in the board to fight decks like Thresh and Reanimator (though its also a relevant board card against quite a few other matchups too). SI has a little bit more space in our board because we don't run Burning Wish. Anyway, it seems like way more people play this deck than SI so I figured I'd mention that its secret tech that way if anyone does some testing with it, we can compare results. I haven't actually tested it myself, but I will once I can find a playset and a Thresh player.

[evanmartyr]

Has anyone given any thought to running the belcher shell but with the Leyline of the Void/Helm of Dominance kill? You give up 4 win conditions but have the advantage of maindeck Leylines, which I hear tell are pretty good. There's nothing stopping you from just siding into a Belcher kill game 2 as well, dodging enchantment hate in some matchups. Obviously you'd probably want to either use Serum Powder or black accelerants, too, but swapping out some red/green stuff for black stuff shouldn't be that hard.

I really wish Planar Void worked like Leyline, or I wouldn't have to suggest this sort of tomfoolery and could just go break the metagame myself.

EDIT: Pokezel, have you thought about reducing the number of SB Shattering Sprees and having a bit more options as far as casting cost go? Chalice for 1 really crimps your game, and having a game 1 answer to it seems advisable. Options could be...

Deconstruct
Hull Breach
Echoing Ruin

Just a thought. Against artifact-heavy decks, having more than one Wish-able answer to Chalice is nice.

[Vacrix]

Has anyone given any thought to running the belcher shell but with the Leyline of the Void/Helm of Dominance kill? You give up 4 win conditions but have the advantage of maindeck Leylines, which I hear tell are pretty good. There's nothing stopping you from just siding into a Belcher kill game 2 as well, dodging enchantment hate in some matchups. Obviously you'd probably want to either use Serum Powder or black accelerants, too, but swapping out some red/green stuff for black stuff shouldn't be that hard.

I really wish Planar Void worked like Leyline, or I wouldn't have to suggest this sort of tomfoolery and could just go break the metagame myself.

Its certainly been suggested before, but its bad. Think about it. It requires 2 cards, while Belcher just requires, well, Belcher and 6 cards that produce mana. It likely won't improve the decks speed. MD Bloodmoons are a much stronger option IMO.

[evanmartyr]

MD Bloodmoons are a much stronger option IMO.

err...I was going to argue that Bloodmoon fights different decks than Leyline, but it mostly doesn't. Perhaps it's a teensy bit better against Reanimator, but you're correct in that watering down the deck for a very slight benefit against some decks is kind of dumb.

[flrn]

I've been throwing around the idea in the SI forum of running Planar Void in the board to fight decks like Thresh and Reanimator (though its also a relevant board card against quite a few other matchups too). SI has a little bit more space in our board because we don't run Burning Wish. Anyway, it seems like way more people play this deck than SI so I figured I'd mention that its secret tech that way if anyone does some testing with it, we can compare results. I haven't actually tested it myself, but I will once I can find a playset and a Thresh player.

Nah. You are faster with killing them, than them reanimating something big. It simply was bad luck. That can happen.

[BreathWeapon]

IDK, I like the Helm of Obedience idea, the deck has about 8 open slots if you're running R/g, extra "belchers" will come up in about 1/5 games which isn't the worse use of those slots over say Serum Powder etc.

[evanmartyr]

IDK, I like the Helm of Obedience idea, the deck has about 8 open slots if you're running R/g, extra "belchers" will come up in about 1/5 games which isn't the worse use of those slots over say Serum Powder etc.

Which 8 slots, though? The only things I see in Pokezel's list that could be considered an "open" slot are the Street Wraiths.

[yankeedave]

Which 8 slots, though? The only things I see in Pokezel's list that could be considered an "open" slot are the Street Wraiths.

The Manamorphoses are also a contested slot to some people, but for me, that is the slot that I use for SBing!

[pokezel]

Pokezel, have you thought about reducing the number of SB Shattering Sprees and having a bit more options as far as casting cost go? Chalice for 1 really crimps your game, and having a game 1 answer to it seems advisable. Options could be...

Deconstruct
Hull Breach
Echoing Ruin

Just a thought. Against artifact-heavy decks, having more than one Wish-able answer to Chalice is nice.

Haha, I just realized that board is super wrong. My board is actually -3 of those sprees and +3 xantid swarm.
The nice thing about shattering spree is that when you replicate it, the copies don't get chalice'd.

[JonBarber]

IDK, I like the Helm of Obedience idea, the deck has about 8 open slots if you're running R/g, extra "belchers" will come up in about 1/5 games which isn't the worse use of those slots over say Serum Powder etc.

These slots are not open! They play a very important role. They thin your deck, creating a specific ratio of kill conditions to mana producing. If you tinker with that, the deck becomes slower, less consistent, and bad. The deck is what it is. If you want something a little looser or more adaptable, don't play belcher. Belcher is great against aggro heavy/non-blue meta's not ready for it. The deck wants to just try and win as fast as possible. It will win, it will find win conditions, thats not really an issue for the deck. Those 8 slots should only be filled with better/more mana ramping spells. As of now, there aren't really any other ones worth playing.

[videogamer99]

This is what Im gonna be rocking with:

\\Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall

\\Spells
4 Burning Wish
4 Dark Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
3 Empty the Warrens
3 Manamorphose

\\Artifacts
4 Chome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

\\Lands
1 Bayou
1 Taiga

\\Sideboard
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tendrils of Agony

[yankeedave]

This is what Im gonna be rocking with:

\\Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall

\\Spells
4 Burning Wish
4 Dark Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
3 Empty the Warrens
3 Manamorphose

\\Artifacts
4 Chome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

\\Lands
1 Bayou
1 Taiga

\\Sideboard
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tendrils of Agony

Do you have any comments of your own to post regarding your build? Why you are running the cards you are or the reasoning behind your SB choices? I have played the 2 Land Dark Ritual version, but find the RG 1 Land is more consistant. Some comments on your choices would be appreciated, rather than just a list :)

Dave

[yankeedave]

Hey Ya’ll

It was the UK Legacy Nationals this weekend and it was a great weekend, packed with lots of fun and cards!

A quick report from me!

I was walking around the venue, having a scout about and found that the Zoo deck that was sitting in my bag just wasn’t going to cut it. I spied 6 Lands decks and decided to Audible to 1 Land Belcher, my usual build and sideboard.

Round 1 – Steve with Lands! (At the top table! I know, first round doesn’t count)

I had seen my opponent playing earlier, and knew he was on Lands, so kept a opening hand that allowed me a 2nd turn win. Game 2, Steve leads out with a Chalice at 0, which turned off the Mox and Lotus Petal in my hand, but that was all the pressure he had, and I hit a Land Grant around the 3rd or 4th turn to Belch him for the win!

Round 2 – Ben with Goblins

Game 1 I make 12 Goblins and Ben can’t deal with them that early and I overrun him. Game 2 and Ben hits the first turn Lackey and I make 12 Goblins. Ben keeps his Lackey at home and I attack with 10 Goblins. He Pyromancers 1 goblin and takes 9. He then rips a Pyrokinesis and bombs my two blockers and two other goblins and attacks with Lackey, dropping Siege Gang into play. I manage to storm up a few more Goblins, but he has another Pryokinesis and he swings for the win later in the game. Game 3 and I make 10 Goblins turn one on the play and he doesn’t have the Pyrokinenis this time and scoops. Afterwards, he comments that he only has 2 Pyrokinesis and was lucky in game 2 to see both! He also said he didn’t realise that Belcher could go off as often as it does!

Round 3 – Shit, cant remember his name, but he was playing Reanimator.

Game 1 and he tells me he knows what I am playing. I tell him that I know what he is playing so he better Mulligan hard for a Force. He sends back his opening 7 and I tell him that he problem with mulliganing hard for force is he still has to be able to play afterwards. He keeps his 6 looking unhappy and I Belcher him for 102 (a new record!) on the first turn. Turns out he had a turn 2 Iona but no Force! Game 2 was a long affair. He couldn’t counter my Xantid Swarm, so I rode that until I could go off. Finally I assemble a winning hand, as he has been Careful Studying and Brainstorming, trying to find an Entomb or a creature, and attack with Xantid Swarm and storm up to 5, with 8 mana in my pool, drop a Blood Moon, which he asks if he can float the mana and I say sure, but you can’t use it due to the Swarm and he looks sad. I then make 14 tokens and he scoops. I feel bad for this guy, because he must have burned 6 or 7 draw spells to try and find a win.

Rounds 4 and 5 were ID’s and I manage to get some lunch!

I finish 4th at the end of the Swiss!

Quarterfinals and I have 3 decks I don’t want to face, in Bant Survival, Canadian Thresh and Merfolk, and 4 which are almost byes, in Zoo, Lands, Lands and Burn. Of course, because DCI Reporter hates me, I get Merfolk. I have first turn plays both games and he has first turn Forces. There ends my day.

I was totally happy with my build and a little more luck in the Top 8 would have made it perfect! :)

[Angelfire]

The Manamorphoses are also a contested slot to some people, but for me, that is the slot that I use for SBing!

Manamorphose is a guaranteed 4 of in Belcher and is one of the best cards in the deck if you are running Black as well. Sideboarding it out is a mistake. Manamorphose is one of the only cards in the deck that actually increases your odds of drawing your sideboard. Beyond that it fixes mana color, adds to storm count for free, and adds slight density to the decks draws.

[Ciberon]

I would easely side out Street Wraith before Manamorphose.

[yankeedave]

I don't like siding out mana accelerants, as they are the most important thing you need. This deck doesn't like not having mana, so taking out mana seems counter-productive. I tend to take out the Street Wraiths against things like Merfolk and other counter/control decks, as the lifeloss matters and the Manamorphoses out against 2 and 3 colour control decks for the Blood Moons, as they are the closest CMC that don't produce mana, as well as taking out the Street Wraiths. If they printed another Red or Green mana producer/accelerant, I would drop the draw cards entirely.

[BreathWeapon]

We added Manamorphose and Street Wraith as filler, and nothing but filler, they have no relevance to the ratios of the other cards in the deck because they were added as an after thought. I've seriously ran 8 Kobolds in those slots just to increase my Storm count for Empty the Warrens and to imprint on Chrome Mox, it's that insignificant of a difference.

[Angelfire]

We added Manamorphose and Street Wraith as filler, and nothing but filler, they have no relevance to the ratios of the other cards in the deck because they were added as an after thought. I've seriously ran 8 Kobolds in those slots just to increase my Storm count for Empty the Warrens and to imprint on Chrome Mox, it's that insignificant of a difference.

Except Manamorphose adds to the Storm count, can be imprinted on Chrome Mox, fixes your colored mana (very good with Dark Ritual) and Cantrips for "free" much like Street Wraith (you have to cast it, but no life loss). Manamorphose is one of the last cards that should be cut or sideboarded out.

[yankeedave]

Except Manamorphose adds to the Storm count, can be imprinted on Chrome Mox, fixes your colored mana (very good with Dark Ritual) and Cantrips for "free" much like Street Wraith (you have to cast it, but no life loss). Manamorphose is one of the last cards that should be cut or sideboarded out.

Ok, I can understand that viewpoint, what would you cut instead and why?

[Angelfire]

Ok, I can understand that viewpoint, what would you cut instead and why?

For a build like:
// Lands
1 [B] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond

Nothing needs to be cut. If you have to sideboard, you can board out ESG or Tinder Walls (depending on the situation).

[yankeedave]

Nothing needs to be cut. If you have to sideboard, you can board out ESG or Tinder Walls (depending on the situation).

I spoke poorly there. I didn't mean cut from the deck period, but what would you take out from the maindeck whilst SBing.

Having read your response, if you do cut the ESG, do you think that you will leave yourself low on Initial Mana Sources (IMS) to start yourself off. I understand that the ESG's are the weakest, but I also feel that you will have to mulligan more if you start taking IMS's out of the deck. I am also very shy of taking out mana accelerants such as Tinder Walls for that same reason, you want to generate as much mana as possible and the Tinder Walls act as a great filter for the ESG's.

Surely, by dropping either of these, instead of the draw, you are weakening your starting hands, as if you can't generate mana, Manamorphose is dead. Street Wraith is obviously another thing all together, but is also weak against very aggressive decks such as Zoo, Merfolk and Burn.

[BreathWeapon]

If you're seriously cutting ESG over Manamorphose post-board, I think you've lost your credibility at this point. Manamorphose is completely unnecessary and Dark Ritual and Bayou have been added and cut from this deck so many times it's not even funny, you guys just need to re-read the thread and step re-inventing the wheel.

[Vacrix]

Except Manamorphose adds to the Storm count, can be imprinted on Chrome Mox, fixes your colored mana (very good with Dark Ritual) and Cantrips for "free" much like Street Wraith (you have to cast it, but no life loss). Manamorphose is one of the last cards that should be cut or sideboarded out.
The problem with playing x8 cycling cards is that it is significantly harder to know when to mulligan. When you start with x2 Wraith and x1 Manamorphose in hand, you COULD draw good shit off the top of your library. Its also possible that you might not. The fact is you can't really know either way. At first glance 'virtually' changing the deck to 52 cards seems to increase the consistency. I think you've lost sight of the fact that this consistency is entirely virtual. Mulligans are an excellent way to increase consistency and your mulligans are going to be far worse when you cannot be sure whether or not they are keepable hands. Mulliganing is a crucial part of Belcher's strategy and distorting it leads you to rely more on luck than you think. If you want to actually try to increase mulligan consistency, try Serum Powder. Its a much better shot than running 8 cyclers.

Also, ESG and SSG are Daze protection. Cutting them instead of a cycle cards like MM seems counterintuitive when you want extra mana against control to protect you against Daze.

[Ozymandias]

When I'm running the deck, I count Street Wraith as about .8 of a mana, given the ratio of mana sources (41) to kill cards (11) and doing the simple EV calculation. Obviously, LEDs and seething songs and extra rites bumped this a bit, but in general I would never keep a hand that countained cantrips, but no initial mana source or kill condition.

I recently played Belcher in a small tourney, and I was sideboarding out Street Wraiths every game, and putting in Swarms or Chewers. If I needed both, I went to manamorphose next. I had no qualms with that whatsoever, especially with not running black for Rituals.

[videogamer99]

Ingot Chewer v. Shattering Spree?

You can wish for Shattering Spree and hit multiple annoying artifacts, but Chewer hits Chalice for 1 and destroys Bridge from Below.

[Vacrix]

You can always run a split, but I prefer Chewer.

[Cindarin]

Am I wrong in thinking that you can shattering spree away a chalice at one?

[Combo Winter]

Yes you definatlly can spree a chalice as it doesnt hit the replicate copies.

[Vacrix]

However, you have to pay more mana to replicate it while Chewer won't cost you more than 1 if you are just dealing with Chalice @ 1.

[magicplaya10]

I am really looking into building this deck, the one land version. I really like belcher. How is Blood Moon, and what would you bring it in against?
I was wondering how to sideboard against control?

My meta consists of Elves, Gobbos, Merfolk, CBTop, and AdNas.

Thanks!

[yankeedave]

I tend to bring it in against decks with shaky mana bases such as Bant and Team America and sometimes even Reanimator if I think they aren't expecting it. Looking at your meta tho, I wouldn't bother, I would be tempted to run Red Blasts, as they will work well against Merfolk, CB and ANT!

[magicplaya10]

I tend to bring it in against decks with shaky mana bases such as Bant and Team America and sometimes even Reanimator if I think they aren't expecting it. Looking at your meta tho, I wouldn't bother, I would be tempted to run Red Blasts, as they will work well against Merfolk, CB and ANT!

Ok I built the deck, and it is extremely fun to play. I love it. So I run the 1 land version (Dont have Bayou yet)...and wanted to know which version is better and why?

Also, I run Xantid Swarm in the Board, should it be blasts and why?

I can understand blasts, but Xantid Swarms seem amazing against control. If it resolves and doesn' die that is. Blasts require you to have 1 extra mana in play or in your hand, which isn't too hard...

Idk, wouldn't mind hearing some thoughts. Thanks!

[pokezel]

Ok I built the deck, and it is extremely fun to play. I love it. So I run the 1 land version (Dont have Bayou yet)...and wanted to know which version is better and why?

Also, I run Xantid Swarm in the Board, should it be blasts and why?

I can understand blasts, but Xantid Swarms seem amazing against control. If it resolves and doesn' die that is. Blasts require you to have 1 extra mana in play or in your hand, which isn't too hard...

Idk, wouldn't mind hearing some thoughts. Thanks!

In my opinion, one land is significantly better than two land. Two land makes Belcher not an automatic win condition, and it also makes the deck less consistant because you always want to land grant out the bayou instead of the taiga, giving yourself only green and black which most of your rituals are not. Dark ritual is awkward because you only have 9 sources in the deck to really get black from. The only advantage the 2 land version has in my book is the board options, but I prefer Xantid Swarms and blasts over anything anyway.


Since people were talking about running Blood Moon in this deck (which I think is AWFUL) I thought I'd bring this up for consideration:
Tectonic Instability
It makes them tap out if they want to continue hitting land drops. This deck already has an autowin against every nonblue deck, so I don't think we need to worry about how you don't care about nonblue decks tapping out or not. Our only opponents are Force of Will and Daze if we play Tectonic Instability. With the rising MUC deck I think this is a legit card against it.

[Ozymandias]

-4 Street Wraith, +4 Grim Monolith.

That is all.

[TestMonkey]

-4 Street Wraith, +4 Grim Monolith.

That is all.

Meh. It's colorless so it stops all progression.

Also, due to the recent banning turn 2 bounce will be now a lot less likely. Thank you WotC!

[Ozymandias]

Well, it's probably the last ritual cast most of the time, but it does allow for a few interesting interactions like banking mana off of land+mox or two lands, and it's gotta be better than trying to TD off of Wraith.

[yankeedave]

Meh. It's colorless so it stops all progression.

Also, due to the recent banning turn 2 will be now a lot less likely. Thank you WotC!

Why does the banning of Mystical Tutor reduce the number of turn 2 wins with Belcher? I am a bit confuzzled!

I am going to split Street Wraiths and Manamorphoses for now, 2 and 2, so I am able to test with 4 Monoliths and see what is better in that slot.

[TestMonkey]

Fixed.

No more "wow that's a lot of goblins/unpopped Charbelcher on turn 1. End of your turn. Mystical Tutor for Echoing Truth." I really hated that play.

[magicplaya10]

Holy Crap....Grim Monolith is UNBANNEDED!

So what do you think would be the proper cut for Monolith? i can see how Street Wraith would get cut, but I wouldn't cut Manamorphose, it fixes your manas.

The thing is, Street Wraith also helps draw through you the deck, so idk. I would probably test cutting the Wraith for Monolith. Ill show my results, if anyone else want to as well.

[Ozymandias]

Holy Crap....Grim Monolith is UNBANNEDED!

So what do you think would be the proper cut for Monolith? i can see how Street Wraith would get cut, but I wouldn't cut Manamorphose, it fixes your manas.

The thing is, Street Wraith also helps draw through you the deck, so idk. I would probably test cutting the Wraith for Monolith. Ill show my results, if anyone else want to as well.

Manamorphose pros:
Adds to storm count.
Imprints for worthwhile colors
Fixes mana to cast Tinder Wall or even sb wish targets.

Street Wraith pros:
A better topdeck with less than two mana on the board.
Doesn't require committing mana.
Can't be countered.
Better to dig for SB cards (but best is aggro mull)

I am going to cut wraith.

[thepenguin99]

I have been messing with taking out street wraith for grim monolith. While I haven't done enough testing for any truely conclusive results my initial impression is that it makes the deck worse. It seems like most of the time when I draw a monolith I am thinking...I wish this cycled.

[Augustas]

is it possible to play it without leds?

[thepenguin99]

is it possible to play it without leds?

Possible yes. Reasonable no.

[jtwilkins]

Possible yes. Reasonable no.

+1

[Vacrix]

Does anyone play Welder in the board anymore? 4 Swarm 4 Welder postboard. They can't STP everything!!
I'll be testing it soon in my SI board so any comments on it are appreciated.

[Ando]

is it possible to play it without leds?

Technically. I play a list with 2 Chrome Moxen and 0 LED. Last time I played it I had 1 Mox and I went 4-0. Multiple T1 Belcher kills, but also more play-belcher-activate-next-turn action that I would like.

And I'm cutting black for monolits, going for 2 to 1 land. But, as previously stated, I don't have many of the good cards for Belcher.

[MMogg]

I can see how Monolith helps if you actually are going for the Charbelcher kill, but maybe it's just me and my bad draws, I go for EtW about 80% of the time, either through drawing an EtW or through drawing Burning Wish. In the case of the EtW win condition, Grim Monolith is particularly worse (imho... there are a lot better/more experienced Belcher pilots than me) because I need that :r: and if I'm going the Burning Wish route, need :r::r:. I know no one is talking about/considering taking out Seething Song and for good reason, but I cannot see how Monolith can take over any other slot (because at the Desperate Ritual slot you lose your valuable :r:). Manamorphose is too vital for securing consistency, not to mention as a storm builder. Wraith, too is a storm builder in that it allows you to cycle to a card more useable/able to accrue storm (not implying it adds storm through cycling). In short, Monolith, if you cast it, adds only to the potential to go into Charbelcher, but for me, that isn't often enough to warrant removing something else at this point. Rite of Flame --> Desperate Ritual-->Seething Song is a ramper that cannot afford a monkey wrench like colourless mana.

[Vacrix]

Manamorphose isn't really vital for consistency. Its a flex slot cycler that color fixes. It also counts as a spell so I prefer it to Street Wraith.
Grim Monolith is pretty much a colorless Cabal Ritual in Belcher. It adds a net of 1, but its usually just going to be for a 1 time use. Even so, I agree it won't see much play.

Also, MMogg, have you tried playing with Spoils belcher? It relies much less on EtW.

[MMogg]

Manamorphose isn't really vital for consistency. Its a flex slot cycler that color fixes. It also counts as a spell so I prefer it to Street Wraith.
Grim Monolith is pretty much a colorless Cabal Ritual in Belcher. It adds a net of 1, but its usually just going to be for a 1 time use. Even so, I agree it won't see much play.

Also, MMogg, have you tried playing with Spoils belcher? It relies much less on EtW.

Again, maybe it's just my draws, but I use Manamorphose a lot for casting Timber Wall. Without it, I would have a lot less consistency because those spells are vital for mana ramping. As you said, it's [Monolith] a colourless add one, and I don't think the deck needs that. Street Wraith is proof that the deck doesn't actually want more cards, it would probably be happier with fewer cards. :smile:

I've never seen a Spoils Belcher list, but I did playtest Spoils of the Vault in the Street Wraith slot and didn't like it as much. Yeah, I went for Belcher kills more often, but I also shat myself (burned myself to death) too often. =(

[GreenOne]

Grim Monolith is not only a colorless +1 mana. It's also a mana you can store for the turn after (like Tinder Wall), to be protected aginst daze with your belcher, or to activate it the same turn you play it, to avoid disenchant effects.
The colorless mana issue is actually mitigated by manamorphose, that can convert a colorless into anything, and by seething song/desperate ritual.

I'm cutting dark ritual from the list, now being entirely red/green. Here is it:
// Lands
1 [A] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [9E] Seething Song
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [UL] Grim Monolith

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [OD] Simplify
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm

The SB might need some work, but the MD is quite solid.

[Vacrix]

Could you provide a sample hand for why you'd want to 'store mana'? I can't see too many situations where that would be profitable unless you get a really good untap phase (Taiga + Chrome Mox or something).

[yankeedave]

Yeah, i have one for ya! You have mulliganed to 5 and have a hand of Land Grant, Chrome Mox, Goblin Charbelcher, Empty the Warrens and Grim Monolith. You cast the Land Grant getting the forest of your choice, Chrome Mox imprinting EtW and then make Grim Monolith and pass the turn. Next turn, you uptap and draw Seething Song. You tap the Mox and the Monolith for :3: and :r:, cast Seething Song, giving you 5 :r: and :1:, then cast Goblin Charbelcher, leaving :1: and :r:, then tap your land for the 3rd mana and Belch for the win! Now, had this been a Street Wraith, this wouldn't have worked, as you would have had to get at least 2 more mana sources to go off!

[Ozymandias]

If you go land/mox-> Tinder Wall/Rite of Flame-> Grim Monolith, you end up with 4 mana the next turn

[Vacrix]

Alright. Thats plausible. I guess it improves the consistency then. Has anyone one goldfished it yet to determine how it changes X% turn 1, X% turn 2, etc.

[cb4]

I have done some goldfish testing with monolith in for street wraith in the standard RG list. I played 25 games on the play and 25 games on the draw. I mulliganed any 6-7 card hand that did not have at least one win condition (belcher, ETW, burning wish). I also mulled if I did not have mana to win with another card or two. I wrote the turn the deck "went off" after each game. "going off" meant belching for 20+ or making 10 plus goblins. Here are my results...


ON THE PLAY (25 games)
T1- 4 games (3 gobs, 1 belch) 16%
T2- 9 games (2 gobs, 7 belch) 36% (1 belch failed and did 12 dam)
T3- 4 games (2 gobs, 2 belch) 16%
T4- 5 games (5 belch) 20%
T5- 3 games (3 belch) 12%

Mulled 11 times.
Mulled to 6 cards 20%
Mulled to 5 cards 16%

ON THE DRAW (25 games)
T1- 14 games (6 gobs, 8 belch) 56%
T2- 6 games (1 gobs, 5 belch) 24%
T3- 3 games (2 gobs, 1 belch) 12%
T4- 1 game (belch) 4%
T5- 1 game (belch) 4%

Mulled 6 times.
Mulled to 6 cards 24%
Did not mull below 6 cards.

OVERALL (50 games)
T1- 36%
T2- 30%
T3- 14%
T4- 12%
T5- 8%

Mulled 17 times (34%)
Mulled to 6 cards (24%)
Mulled to 5 cards (10%)

I liked a couple things about monolith. The first is knowing the card in your hand to open. I have neard people say that sometimes street wraith will draw you into your win condition. However, I would not keep a hand without a win condition. Therefore, I am always looking for mana. It is nice to know exactly what you are working with.

Secondly, it is nice to store 3 mana in some situations. One I remember was an opener of mox, belcher, monolith, buring wish, LED, and lotus petal. This hand allowed me to go...

T1- mox imprint wish, petal, play monolith
T2- play belcher, play LED, sac LED to activate becher, WIN

This situation does not sem that rare and it appears monolith is great at enabling early wins with LED and belcher that would not be there without monolith.

The concern about not making red mana really didn't come up when going for the win. Even when you need 4RR for wish and empty, monlith is making 1 of those mana. When you are at 4-5 mana, you have at least 2 red. You use 2 of the other mana to cast monolith. If you need 4RR, then you cast monolith as your last ritual. Even a hand like wish, rite, rite, petal, monolith, monolith can go off turn 1.

T1- petal for red, rite (RR), rite (RRRR), monolith and tap (3RR), use 2 colorless for monolith and tap (4RR), wish for ETW (3R), ETW for 14 goblins.


I think wraith filled a role when we didn't have another rital in RG. Now we do. I would not cut manamorphose becuase it is too important for fixing mana being cast or imprnited and for upping storm counts. I would cut monolith or manamorphose first when SB'ing. I would probably cut monolith if bringing in green cards like xantid swarm.

Here is my list with current SB...
// Lands
1 [R] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [CST] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [UL] Grim Monolith

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [MM] Cave-In
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [M10] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence


I cut tendrils in the side because I never use it.

[Vacrix]

Nice results cb4!
Do you have a standard of comparison though? It looks really slow to me because I play SI. Does anyone have results w/out Grim Monolith to compare? Also, its a little unclear your results. Whats the exact number of times you won on turn 1, 2 ,etc. I can't tell from looking at your info because some say (6 gobs, 8 belch) so I'd imagine thats 6 EtW but when do they go all the way T2 or 3, and does the Belcher connect or misfire?

Also, how does Welder look post-board? It allows you to make use of your Monolith even after it got used for T: Add 3.

[jtwilkins]

I have done some goldfish testing with monolith in for street wraith in the standard RG list. I played 25 games on the play and 25 games on the draw. I mulliganed any 6-7 card hand that did not have at least one win condition (belcher, ETW, burning wish). I also mulled if I did not have mana to win with another card or two. I wrote the turn the deck "went off" after each game. "going off" meant belching for 20+ or making 10 plus goblins. Here are my results...


ON THE PLAY (25 games)
T1- 4 games (3 gobs, 1 belch) 16%
T2- 9 games (2 gobs, 7 belch) 36% (1 belch failed and did 12 dam)
T3- 4 games (2 gobs, 2 belch) 16%
T4- 5 games (5 belch) 20%
T5- 3 games (3 belch) 12%

Mulled 11 times.
Mulled to 6 cards 20%
Mulled to 5 cards 16%

ON THE DRAW (25 games)
T1- 14 games (6 gobs, 8 belch) 56%
T2- 6 games (1 gobs, 5 belch) 24%
T3- 3 games (2 gobs, 1 belch) 12%
T4- 1 game (belch) 4%
T5- 1 game (belch) 4%

Mulled 6 times.
Mulled to 6 cards 24%
Did not mull below 6 cards.

OVERALL (50 games)
T1- 36%
T2- 30%
T3- 14%
T4- 12%
T5- 8%

Mulled 17 times (34%)
Mulled to 6 cards (24%)
Mulled to 5 cards (10%)

I liked a couple things about monolith. The first is knowing the card in your hand to open. I have neard people say that sometimes street wraith will draw you into your win condition. However, I would not keep a hand without a win condition. Therefore, I am always looking for mana. It is nice to know exactly what you are working with.

Secondly, it is nice to store 3 mana in some situations. One I remember was an opener of mox, belcher, monolith, buring wish, LED, and lotus petal. This hand allowed me to go...

T1- mox imprint wish, petal, play monolith
T2- play belcher, play LED, sac LED to activate becher, WIN

This situation does not sem that rare and it appears monolith is great at enabling early wins with LED and belcher that would not be there without monolith.

The concern about not making red mana really didn't come up when going for the win. Even when you need 4RR for wish and empty, monlith is making 1 of those mana. When you are at 4-5 mana, you have at least 2 red. You use 2 of the other mana to cast monolith. If you need 4RR, then you cast monolith as your last ritual. Even a hand like wish, rite, rite, petal, monolith, monolith can go off turn 1.

T1- petal for red, rite (RR), rite (RRRR), monolith and tap (3RR), use 2 colorless for monolith and tap (4RR), wish for ETW (3R), ETW for 14 goblins.


I think wraith filled a role when we didn't have another rital in RG. Now we do. I would not cut manamorphose becuase it is too important for fixing mana being cast or imprnited and for upping storm counts. I would cut monolith or manamorphose first when SB'ing. I would probably cut monolith if bringing in green cards like xantid swarm.

Here is my list with current SB...
// Lands
1 [R] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [CST] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [UL] Grim Monolith

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [MM] Cave-In
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [M10] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence


I cut tendrils in the side because I never use it.


Wow great work and thanks for the stats. I think this points out the possibility of drawing vs playing. I think Belcher's main problem is dealing with counters or road blocks such as pithing needle, medling mage and chalice. I would be interesting to crunch numbers of getting out a swarm, attacking then pulling off a belcher or maybe pulling of warrens as fast as you can but not belchering until you get off a swarm attack.

[Vacrix]

Wow great work and thanks for the stats. I think this points out the possibility of drawing vs playing. I think Belcher's main problem is dealing with counters or road blocks such as pithing needle, medling mage and chalice. I would be interesting to crunch numbers of getting out a swarm, attacking then pulling off a belcher or maybe pulling of warrens as fast as you can but not belchering until you get off a swarm attack.
Hence..... Goblin Welder. What are the thoughts about this? Consider the following play. Chrome Mox, (imprint Manamorphose) Goblin Welder, LED.
Next turn, Sac the LED, Float R, Tap Welder sacing Mox getting Belcher from your grave.. and activate. It also makes use of your Grim Monoliths after you have used them for T: 3.

[jtwilkins]

Nice results cb4!
Do you have a standard of comparison though? It looks really slow to me because I play SI. Does anyone have results w/out Grim Monolith to compare? Also, its a little unclear your results. Whats the exact number of times you won on turn 1, 2 ,etc. I can't tell from looking at your info because some say (6 gobs, 8 belch) so I'd imagine thats 6 EtW but when do they go all the way T2 or 3, and does the Belcher connect or misfire?

Also, how does Welder look post-board? It allows you to make use of your Monolith even after it got used for T: Add 3.

I can't see any situation I would want welder to pop up on a draw. You have to get him out, keep him alive a turn then have a the right artifacts in play. Whatever the situation he is just slowing things down. If you looking at boarding him in vs counter spell deck then are you not bringing in Xantid Swarm?

I all for make this deck more resilient but I don't see how welder can do that. Your better off playing with Guttural Response, Blasts or going back to R/G/B and using duress.

[Vacrix]

You can take advantage of setting up andwinning through multiple countermagic. Gutteral Response is marginal and only answers so many countermagic: one. Also, Welder allows you to rely less on mana during the combo turn because you can get the 'slow play inevitability', or bait a counter. If they don't counter it, you can slowly play manasources and play around each counterspell after the other. Rarely do I see the Welder get countered, especially if you just RFG SSG and then play your Welder, your opponent doesn't know if you can then easily play out a Belcher with the remaining 5 cards and just sit on basically the same strategy, or go into EtW, missing an opportunity to counter the key ritual. Also, a 7 card hand with Welder is much stronger than a winning hand because you don't need to mulligan for a fast win or EtW. It guarentees you multiple tries if they opponent doesn't have removal.

First you play Belcher, and it likely eats a counter. Then just bring it into play via Welder and force mana sources until you get one off and Belch. Mana sources are much more plentiful in the deck. Think of it like running 1-4 more Xantid Swarms, except it protects you getting Belcher into play instead of protecting EtW chains. I'm not saying replace the Swarms with Welders. Rather, cut down on the Wish board and you make room to help against your worst matchup: U.dec.

[cb4]

In my testing, belcher only failed to win once when activated. I noted it in the "on the play" data. The question of when goblins can go the distance is a good one. Playing 10+ on turn one should usually win. Turn 2+ it depends if your opponent can get an answer (echoing truth, EE, etc.) or if the can put down enough blockers. I have more detailed data from the testing on paper. How many goblins would you need to make on turn 2 or 3 to consider it lethal? It will always be theorhetical because someone can always answer a million goblins for 2 mana. Maybe making goblins after turn 2 is not a win. I would be open to opinions on that.

I will do the same study today with wraiths. I will still only keep a 6 or 7 card hand with a win condition because I would never want to need to draw one. With 11 win conditions in the deck (3 ETW, 4 belch, 4 wish) and just over 50 cards in the deck, the probablity of drawing one is about 20%. Using that estimate your odds of drawing one or more win conditions goes roughly like this...

In 1 draw 20%
In 2 draws 36%
In 3 draws 49%
In 4 draws 59%
In 5 draws 68%

That means you have about a one in three chance of not drawing any win condions in five draws. Your chance of drawing a win condition isn't even around 50/50 unless you have 3 draws to do it.

You make good points about welder. I don't know what I would cut from the board though. It would proably have to be some blasts and I don't know if I want to part with them.

I will post my testing results with wraiths later today.

[cb4]

Just finished testing with wraith. I ran the same list I posted last page with wraiths in for monoliths.


ON THE PLAY (25 games)

T1- 10 games (7 gobs, 3 belch)
T2- 7 games (5 gobs, 2 belch)
T3- 6 games (2 gobs, 4 belch) (one of these belches only went for 18 dam on turn 2 but was able to belch for lethal again T3)
T4- 0 games
T5- 1 game (belch)
1 game the deck failed go off in 5 turns

Mulled to 6 twice
Mulled to 5 twice


ON THE DRAW (25 games)

T1- 17 games (9 gobs, 8 belch)
T2- 2 games (2 belch)
T3- 5 games (1 gobs, 4 belch) (one of these belches was a turn 1 for 6 damage and rebelched turn 3 for lethal)
T4- 1 game (belch) (this was a turn 3 belch that failed and rebelched turn 4 for the win)
T5- 0 games

Mulled to 6 twice


OVERALL (50 games)

T1- 54%
T2- 18%
T3- 22%
T4- 2%
T5- 2%
Fail- 2%

Mull to 6 - 8%
Mull to 5- 4%

According to this study the deck is faster and mulls less with wraith over monolith. I do have to say that the set of 25 games on the play with monolith got alot worse draws than any other set of 25 games and this is a small sample size. The set of 25 games I did with wraith on the draw only mulled twice (both to 6 cards) in 25 games. This seems to be a very good set of draws. I will definitely have to test more with both. I was ready to dismiss wraith, but I may have to reconsider that and test more.

[yankeedave]

I was about to begin this testing, but it seems you have been doing good work. Could you also test with Monolith in the Manamorphose slot, just for completeness? I completely understand this isn't something that would normally be considered, but I was just curious!

[Vacrix]

Why would you want to test in the Manamorphose slot? What would you play instead? Street Wraith? Wraith is just a bad version of Manamorphose. It doesn't count as a spell. What would you play instead?

cb4.. would you be down to test a spoils list? I'm curious.. EtW for much on the 1st turn doesn't really impress me to tell the truth. It might get there against a few decks, but people pull answers out of their ass for it. TES can do the exact same thing, maybe a turn slower on avg. but with protection and a backup plan. Clearly, Monolith improves classic Belcher but I wonder if Monolith improves the viability of Spoils Belcher as well.

[yankeedave]

lol, I did clearly state that I did know that that request was out of the ordinary, I want to know for the sake of completeness of testing, as sometimes the expected result is not the correct result. Is that a bad thing now?

[Vacrix]

Its not. I was just asking what you would run instead. Actually, I accidentally said it twice. You would have 4 open slot if you moved Grim Monolith to the Manamorphose slot.

[cb4]

Vacrix, I would be down to test it. I ruptured my achilles and am laid up all summer, so I have time. Post a list for me.

[jtwilkins]

I think all the tests of how fast the deck will go off are redundant What kills Belcher is the long hall not if it goes off on turn 1 or turn 2. Fishbowl testing has been done it needs to be play tested against real decks with disruption. Everyone though 2 land belcher was old tech and it top 8s in the St Louis SSG event. Sideboard has 3 duress and 4 swarm.

Build need to start looking at endurance not speed. This game is against another player not a goldfish.

[magicplaya10]

I think all the tests of how fast the deck will go off are redundant What kills Belcher is the long hall not if it goes off on turn 1 or turn 2. Fishbowl testing has been done it needs to be play tested against real decks with disruption. Everyone though 2 land belcher was old tech and it top 8s in the St Louis SSG event. Sideboard has 3 duress and 4 swarm.

Build need to start looking at endurance not speed. This game is against another player not a goldfish.

Well it's only against other players if they are playing blue spells usually. If not, then it's usually goldfishing.
Just kidding.

But I see where your coming from. 4 Xantids are all I run in the board, and I really need more. I run the R/G version, because I don't like black in the deck. I am thinking of running ReB's in the board as well.

The deck is great fun to play.

[yankeedave]

I have recently dropped 4 Blood Moon from the board, as they have been a little hit and miss lately, but have changed up to 2 Magus of the Moon, as people usually board out their removal and 2 Pyroblast. This seems to have improved my blue matchup slightly, as I can now protect the first turn Swarm.

Funny thing about that 2 land Belcher from the SCG St Louis 5K event was that he was only running the Bayou for SB cards, he could have quite easily run the 1 land version with the 4th Manamorphose and had the Bayou in the SB!

[GoboLord]

Hey guys,

maybe you are interested in this:
We did some statistic on university that can be applied to MtG.
I calculated the chances of winning with Belcher if activated.
I sumulated 50 activations. X= frequency

I assumed that there are 50 cards left in deck (one of wich is Taiga) and Belcher is activated. Here are the results:

1-Land-Belcher with Taiga revealed

damage
0 XX
2 X
4 XX
6
7
8
9
10 X
12 XX
14 XX
16 X
18 X
>18 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (38x)

If your opponent is on 20 you have winning chance of 76%

Here the results with both of them in deck still 50 cards left:

2-Land-Belcher
damage
0 XXX
1
2 XX
3 X
4 X
5 XX
6 XX
7
8 XXXXX
9
10 XXXXX
11 X
12 XX
13
14
15
16
17
18 X
19 X
>19 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (24)

If your opponent is on 20 you have winning chance of 48%
Which is half of the 1-Land-Belcher condition although you have 2 Lands in deck!


Maybe these data can help you.

GL

[yankeedave]

That is actually pretty interesting, did you have a program for that or is it all done by hand? If its a computer, any chance we can have a bigger sample? Say 500 on each?

[GoboLord]

That is actually pretty interesting, did you have a program for that or is it all done by hand? If its a computer, any chance we can have a bigger sample? Say 500 on each?

I did it by hand but I am sure there ARE programs that can do this. Actually I think I can figure out how it works with excel, I think there is a function.
Here is the way I did it, maybe someone has an idea or knows programs that can help:

I wanted to know how often Belcher is lethal if activated (and there are still land(s) in deck).
So I assume we drew 7 + 3 more cards until we can go off, leaves 50 cards in deck, including 1-2 lands.
Therefore the chance on revealing - let's say - Taiga is 1:50.
For Belcher to be deadly with Taiga in deck we have to reveal 10 cards BEFORE we reveal Taiga.

So here is how it works:
Nearly every calculator we use for university has a "random" function. There you get a random number between .00 and .99
Each number is even likeliy to occur because it's random.
I "coded" Taiga as .01 and .51. All other numbers between .00 and .99 (which are 98) are coded for any other card that is not Taiga.
Now I use the random-function as often as I wish until either:
.01 or .51 occurs
or
we have 10 numbers in a row that aren't .01 or .51
(depending on what comes first)

Example:
.28, .61, .95, .15, .78, .01 (We have 5 numbers that aren't Taiga and the last one is .01). So we got 5*2 damage.

I repeated it 50 times and always recording the damage.


For the 2-Land-condition I did the same thing:
Taiga = .01 and .51
Bayou = .02 and .52

Only that we have use the random function until
.01, .51, .02 or .52 occur
or
we have 20 number is a row that aren't .01, .51, .02 or .52 (since Bayxou needs 20 cards revealed to kill)


What we need is a program that does the simulation (the random-function) for us AND that counts the frequency of the numbers .01, .51, .02 and .52.
Maybe someone can help out with that? So we can easily simulate 500 or even 5000 samples.

By the way:
In statistics we call results "significant" if we have more than 40 samples. I wouldn't say that more testing brings up higher or lower kill-rates you only get more counts for the other 1-19 damages.

[Silent Requiem]

Wow you did it the hard way.

Let's start at the beginning. The chance of a specific sequence of events is equal to the chance of the multiples of it's component parts, assuming that each event is independent.

An example: the chance of flipping heads on a coin three times in a row = P(3) = 1/2*1/2*1/2 = .125 = 12.5%

So assuming 20 life, we know we need to flip 10 cards. Chance [with one land in the deck] = P(10) = 49/50*48/49*47/48*.....41/42*40/41 = .8 = 80% This is pretty close to your experimental value.

Now, with two lands in the deck P(10) = 48/50*47/49*46/48....40/42*39/41 = .637 = 63.7% This is significantly more than your statistical value, which suggests that you had a run of bad luck. Luck can easily skew statistics when sample sizes are quite small.

-Silent Requiem

Edit: Another problem with your model is that you are drawing from the same 50 cards each time, when in reality you are drawing from a smaller pool with each progressive card. Under your model, for example, it is possible (but improbable) to do 1,000 damage (or any other arbitrarily large number), whereas the above model correctly predicts a point at which you have a 100% chance of the next card being a land (ie, when it is the only card left).

Further Edit: Actually, you probably only need the first nine cards, because you really don't care what the 10th card is... it's guarenteed to be lethal. You can adjust the above math by ommiting the final fraction (although technically it simply becomes a "1").

[Iranon]

Bah, kids these days and their crude statistical tools. Here's a more elegant method from a more civilised time:


Same assumption, 50 cards in the deck, one of them is a Taiga, opponent is at 20.

The chance that you don't flip the Taiga in the first reveal is 49/50
The chance that you don't flip the Taiga in the second reveal is 48/49
...
The chance that you don't flip the Taiga in the 10th reveal is 40/41

*

The product of these chances is our chance to kill, and this simplifies to 40/50 = 0.8 because 41 to 49 show up in both numerator and denominator.

*

For 2 Taigas, individual chances go from 48/50 to 39/41, so our chance to kill is 39*40/(49*50) = 0.637




EDIT: Ok, sorry for being very late. Silent Requiem, your numbers are correct. You don't trim the last fraction because Belcher deals damage equal to the revealed *nonland* cards. If the 10 revealed card is a Taiga, you only deal 18.

[cb4]

Silent Requiem's math is correct. Although, with one land sitting in 50 cards, you can find the probability of going off for 20 even easier. If the land is one of the top 10 cards, you lose. If it is one of the bottom 40, you win. 40/50 = .8. Same result. You can find the probability of going off for 20+ with 1 land belcher at any time by doing (# of cards left in deck -10) / number of cards left in deck. With 53 cards left you would have a 43/53 = .811 = 81.1% of 20+ damage. This way of thinking about it can be done during the game.

You could expand this into a formula for one land belcher...

D= damage you need to do
N= number of cards left in deck

FORMULA: (N- (D/2 rounded up)) / N

FORMULA IN WORDS: Take the number of cards left in your deck and substract half the damage you need to do (rounded up). Take this number and divide by the number of cards left in deck.

Example: I have 47 cards left in my deck and need to do 17 damage to win.

(47- (17/2)) / 47
47 - 9 / 47
38/47 = .808 = 80.8%

[GoboLord]

O.k. the way you did it is much easier, but I didnt know those formulas.
Nevertheless they dont bring resukts for the 2-land-one-of-which-is-bayou-condition.
Silent Requiem said I had bad luck but you ony reffered to a situation where 2 TAIGA are in deck and not 1 Taiga, 1 Bayou. This situation is different cause Bayou needs 20 cards to kill, and Taiga 10.
So I think this part of my calculation is right.

[Enigma]

Land Grant invalidate those stats too, as there will be ain't no land anymore in the deck at the time you activate Belcher if you play the 1-land belcher, and only one if you play the regular 2-lands version.

I say that because some people could find that the percentage of win is pretty low (under 75%) when you activate Belcher. But it increases if you drew your land or cast Land Grant.

P-M

[Ciberon]

If you play 1-land belcher (like me) and didn't see the land yet, when you activate belcher about 50 cards should remain in your library. You want to flip 10 of those before the land. That is 1/5 of the deck, so your sucess rate should be 80%.

[GoboLord]

Land Grant invalidate those stats too, as there will be ain't no land anymore in the deck at the time you activate Belcher if you play the 1-land belcher, and only one if you play the regular 2-lands version.

I say that because some people could find that the percentage of win is pretty low (under 75%) when you activate Belcher. But it increases if you drew your land or cast Land Grant.

P-M

Land Grant doesnt invalidate those stats because I did this calculations to point out how "risky" it is to go off with Belcher if you have lands in deck.
It's only logical that Belcher shouldn't fizzle if there are no lands left.

[Iranon]

O.k. the way you did it is much easier, but I didnt know those formulas.
Nevertheless they dont bring resukts for the 2-land-one-of-which-is-bayou-condition.
Silent Requiem said I had bad luck but you ony reffered to a situation where 2 TAIGA are in deck and not 1 Taiga, 1 Bayou. This situation is different cause Bayou needs 20 cards to kill, and Taiga 10.
So I think this part of my calculation is right.

Again, we don't need simulation, good old-fashioned probability will do with the correct application. Assmption of 50 cards in library, 1 Bayou, 1 Taiga.

We need to not reveal a land in the first 10. We already have that probability - it's the same as the chance to win with 2 Taigas: 0.637

*

Taking as given that we don't reveal a land in the first 10:
We can win by drawing no lands in the next 10 reveals. Chance of this is 38/40 * 37/39 * ... * 29/31 = 29*30/(39*40) = 0.355
If we draw a land in these reveals (chance of 1 minus the above), we have a 50% chance of winning: We win if the Taiga is on top of the Bayou, we don't win if the Bayou is on top of the Taiga. So the chance of winning by flipping a Taiga in between card 11 and 20 is (1-0.355)/2

Total chance of winning, given that we flipped no land in the first 10 is:
0.355+(1-0.355)/2 = 0.678

*

For our end result, we need to multiply this with the chance to not flip a land in the first 10...

0.637*0.678= 0.43 for our chance to belch for lethal damage with a Bayou and a Taiga in a 50-card library.

[GoboLord]

Okay, thanks for that. So my 48% aren't based on "bad luck" as Silent assumed.

You method works better here (and is much more precise). No need for programs then :cool:

[workingdude]

Pyretic Ritual 1R
Instant (C)
Add RRR to your mana pool

Should this replace some of the manamorphose or seething songs in some lists? Desperate Ritual 5-8?

[pokezel]

I think Pyretic Ritual is better than Desperate ritual in some cases. It's an instant, which allows you for some instant speed responses, like belcher activations. I have definitely used desperate ritual's Splice mechanic before, but I'm not sure how much it would affect the deck's performance, if any.

Edit: I'm wrong, desperate ritual is an instant, LOL

[workingdude]

I think Pyretic Ritual is better than Desperate ritual in some cases. It's an instant, which allows you for some instant speed responses, like belcher activations. I have definitely used desperate ritual's Splice mechanic before, but I'm not sure how much it would affect the deck's performance, if any.

Desperate Ritual is an instant.

[pokezel]

Desperate Ritual is an instant.

Well F me in the A. I've invalidated myself as a player.

[yankeedave]

Pyretic Ritual 1R
Instant (C)
Add RRR to your mana pool

Should this replace some of the manamorphose or seething songs in some lists? Desperate Ritual 5-8?

Has this been spoiled or are you just messing with us?

[Iranon]

Okay, thanks for that. So my 48% aren't based on "bad luck" as Silent assumed.

You method works better here (and is much more precise). No need for programs then :cool:

A pleasure. There is no need for programs in many situations where they're habitually used, and sometimes I believe the scientific community would be in better shape if they weren't so readily available... we're losing the culture of rigorous thinking and figuring out how to apply the basics. Ah well, at least we still have games :)

[Ozymandias]

This has been a pretty good two weeks for Belcher. It is now possible to pack the deck full of nothing but win conditions and mana off of one color.

Shwing.

[Vacrix]

Has this been spoiled or are you just messing with us?
It has been spoiled. But its shitty. I can't see it replacing much.

[yankeedave]

I might actually run the new ritual instead of Grim Monolith and leave Manamorphose in for fixing. I need to start testing again now!

[Vacrix]

Well does the list have issues color fixing? Seething Song 'color fixes' for 2 of the 2R, and you already have Manamorphose and plenty of initial red sources. I think keeping Monoliths is the right call.

[Brad Herbig]

Well if you are playing the RGb version of Belcher, you will need Manamorphose for Dark Ritual.

I am currently playing the 1-land RG Belcher list, and I might cut Manamorphose in that list for the new ritual. I am not really a fan of Grim Monolith due to the fact it doesn't produce colored mana, which is very important to making enough mana with other rituals for your business.

[GreenOne]

New card: Pyretic Ritual
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106819&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1277870601

1R
Instant
Add RRR to your mana pool.

It's just a Desperate Ritual clone, without Splice.

[Vacrix]

The question here is really, would you rather cycle into your mana source with Manamorphose, or just run the Ritual in its place. Manamorphose is not necessary unless you are playing Spoils and Dark Ritual. Also, you can't really know if whats on top of your deck is actually what you need. In that case, running the ritual over MM would certainly make mulliganing easier because then you know exactly what you have in hand, rather than having your hand +1 unknown card from your library.

[JonBarber]

The question here is really, would you rather cycle into your mana source with Manamorphose, or just run the Ritual in its place. Manamorphose is not necessary unless you are playing Spoils and Dark Ritual. Also, you can't really know if whats on top of your deck is actually what you need. In that case, running the ritual over MM would certainly make mulliganing easier because then you know exactly what you have in hand, rather than having your hand +1 unknown card from your library.

Yes, but manamorphose does two important thing, it thins your deck, creating a better win con/ritual ratio, and it also in creases storm count. Once I have enough to go off, I love seeing manamorphose.

[jtwilkins]

Manamorphose can also even out the mana for Tinderwall, Swarm, Duress and some sideboard wishes.
I don't think the new ritual will see play, all the other cards in the deck are better then it and wrath is just a void spot so wrath is better then Pyretic Ritual. Unless in actual play it comes out that Pyretic is better then Grim Monolith which we don't even know if grim is worth a spot.

[TestMonkey]

Any thoughts on Crack the Earth replacing Xantid Swarm in the sideboard? On the draw it seems pretty good. Must counter or they lose out on their opening land drop or 1 drop and lord help them if they had to mulligan to find an answer to EtW and Belcher. Also cheap enough to combo off around. I've sent several opponents into top deck mode after nuking their initial land drop.

[Vacrix]

Its not going to be that great. Missing a land drop isn't that big a deal. As long as they have one more they can cantrip into more lands. Its not worth dropping Swarm. Also, any card that could replace Swarm would be run in addition to Swarm. Swarm is just that good.

[jtwilkins]

Any thoughts on Crack the Earth replacing Xantid Swarm in the sideboard? On the draw it seems pretty good. Must counter or they lose out on their opening land drop or 1 drop and lord help them if they had to mulligan to find an answer to EtW and Belcher. Also cheap enough to combo off around. I've sent several opponents into top deck mode after nuking their initial land drop.

Cracks the Earth sets you back more then them you wasting a mana source and a card slot then possible a permanent you all ready have on board to maybe get them to counter. By the time you board it in they know you are playing Belcher and there is no way they are going to worry about Crack the Earth. They may Daze it just to pick their land up but that is all your going to get. No one will waste a Force of Will on this.

[PanderAlexander]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this already

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=107035&d=1278302906

Seems Xantid Swarm is still better though.

[Vacrix]

Yes this card is fucking baller and WoTC will regret ever printing it. It should be a rare. You guys should run it in addition to Xantid Swarm.

[jtwilkins]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this already

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=107035&d=1278302906

Seems Xantid Swarm is still better though.

It is really no different then a Guttural Response or a REB in advance. It is going to eat 1 of their counters if they have one to counter Autumn's Veil, Swarm is better for the long hall against blue. Now if this was uncountable it would be bomb.

[JohnBaltimore]

Has anyone seen the Summoner's Pact versions that have been played online (check Decks of the Week) lately.

Thoughts?

[sam.]

Decks of the Week links with Pact Belcher:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/1373742
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/1373746

I personally think that, since the deck is already vulnerable to counterspells, adding Pact would make your games 2 and 3 worse against those decks. The decks in those two events had 3 others which ran countermagic, though I don't know what exactly that represents.

It does smooth out the manabase for sure, since you can get +G or +R (or fixing), but I think it would make recovery very difficult and require card disadvantage on the player's part.

Also I don't like Birds or Street Wraith in Belcher. :P

EDIT:
Well actually now that I think about it, Summoner's Pact does allow you to play through Daze a lot easier as well. For me though, Belcher is enough of a glass cannon, and pushing it more in that direction might do more harm than good.

[JohnBaltimore]

Point taken. I think the Wraith is pointless.

Here is the build I have been considering for an upcoming legacy tournament

Lands:
1 Taiga

Creatures:
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall

Spells:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Seething Song
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Land Grant
4 Chrome Mox
3 Pyroblast
3 Empty The Warrens
1 Autumn's Veil

Sideboard:
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Nature's Claim
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty The Warrens
1 Hull Breach/Shattering Spree
1 Pyroclasm


I want MD Pyroblast for counter-hate, as well as removal against fish. What do you guys think?

[magicmoocow]

Hello all! Long time lurker, first time poster.

I was hoping I could get a sideboard discussion for Belcher restarted as I find its current sideboard quite dreadful.

The wishboard as it currently stands, while it is capable to answer many problems, isn't very effective in practice. Most of the answers are to turn one problems by the opponent and tend to use up all of the Belcher players resources. I think that cards that are sideboarded in in games two and three should be defensive and, for the most part, the wishboard cards should be very aggressive.

1. What defensive sideboard cards to put in?

Options are:
Ingot Chewer and Shattering Spree (artifact hate)
Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast, Xantid Swarm, Guttural Response and now Autumn's Veil (blue hate)

Probably a mix of 8 of those cards should be to side in if necessary. I guess I should note that I haven't seen any cards to side in against enchantments. I believe that Leyline of Sanctity is a very relevant card for legacy sideboards, as it shuts down a large number of legacy cards. I know it only stops the Belcher kill for this deck so maybe it's not as relevant. This plus something like Ghostly Prison can be a problem, however. If that ever happens, maybe something like Simplify would be a 4-of.

If you're running Black (I'm not but a good portion or people are) Duress or Thoughtseize might be a good 4-of. Like Shattering Spree, they're also wishable.

Chances are each of these cards will eat up at least one additional card in your hand to cast.

2. What aggressive sideboard cards to put in?

This is the meat of what I wanted to talk about. Most sideboard wish targets answer very specific situations and will eat up a your entire hand. I mean sure if the opponent gets a bunch of 2/2 dorks on the battlefield turn one (or a teeg/meddling mage naming something relevant) you can go

Lotus Petal -> Rite of Flame -> Rite of Flame -> Burning Wish and Pyroclasm

so congrats, you've just killed their guy. Assuming you were on the draw, you now have 3 cards left in your hand and they probably have 4 and a land in play (assume they used a petal or a spirit guide for the extra mana). Their turn two, they drop disruption #2 and you're running on half a tank. To be fair, the best turn one one the draw solution I have to a teeg would be a Forked Bolt or a Firebolt. Yes you have to burn a lot of resources but one less than Pyroclasm.

90% of the time, the wish card gotten is Empty the Warrens. I do know that some people get Diminishing Returns also, and I think that card is great. Why not Windfall? It's castable off a LED alone and most times is just as good as a Wheel. Also, it lets a Belcher player have a 5 mana/Burning Wish option which doesn't exist in Legacy. NEVERMIND - BANNED

Tendrils of Agony can also be good, but it's hard to get to 10 storm unless you've already wished once. Maybe it's actually a more viable wish target with Windfall NEVERMIND - BANNED (although drawing another wish and probably another LED might be really hard). I'd think of a tendrils as almost always a cleanup spell after an empty with some attacks, but the last damage can't be pushed through. That or a stall. Goblin War Strike is kinda similar.

For a "crap, I need to reset the board" option, has anyone considered Balancing Act? I'm really not sure what situation one would want to use it in, but it certainly evens each players board/hand out!

This is all I have right now. I stopped looking after 4cc spells as I think higher casting costs would be hard to get to.


Thoughts? Comments? Spam? Trolls? :)

-James

P.S. For fun, try Reanimate in your wishboard if you're playing against a lot of reanimator. My Iona!

[Ozymandias]

Um, Windfall is banned.

[magicmoocow]

That's a good point. *sigh*. All that typing and I need to read the B/R list more. My local store just switched over from Vintage to Legacy.

[Ozymandias]

Also, I think my sideboard covers what you're looking for pretty well:

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Reverent Silnce
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering Spree
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Xantid Swarm (might become autumn's veil)

[magicmoocow]

Yes, that's pretty close to what I am thinking. Here's my proposed one

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Reverent Silence
1 Pyroclasm
1 Firebolt
4 Shattering Spree
4 Xantid Swarm
1 ?
1 ?

I think Xantid Swarm is better than Autumn's Veil at this moment because green mana is easier to get as the first mana made (land grant/taiga, esg, or a chrome mox imprinting a green spell) and that is probably the same mana you want to use to cast something else (tinder wall or as colorless for some other ritual maybe). If a swarm resolves, you get to draw another card before going off (probably).

What are your thoughts on Chewers versus Sprees? Just because it'll kill a Chalice at one for one mana (whereas Spree'll cost two).

I don't think Infernal Tutor is that great. Can you give me a senario where you go off with it?

I'd really like 1-2 three mana or less spells that make a significant impact on the board in my favor, but can't seem to find them yet. now that I know Windfall is banned, the only one I can think of is something like Infernal Contract.

[Vacrix]

Decks of the Week links with Pact Belcher:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/1373742
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/1373746

I personally think that, since the deck is already vulnerable to counterspells, adding Pact would make your games 2 and 3 worse against those decks. The decks in those two events had 3 others which ran countermagic, though I don't know what exactly that represents.

It does smooth out the manabase for sure, since you can get +G or +R (or fixing), but I think it would make recovery very difficult and require card disadvantage on the player's part.

Also I don't like Birds or Street Wraith in Belcher. :P

EDIT:
Well actually now that I think about it, Summoner's Pact does allow you to play through Daze a lot easier as well. For me though, Belcher is enough of a glass cannon, and pushing it more in that direction might do more harm than good.
Pact doesn't belong in Belcher. Its just people trying to use tech from SI that really doesn't belong there. Belcher is a turn 3 combo deck. It can't use Pact effectively.

[magicmoocow]

Best 3CC card drawer I can find is... Fiery Gambit. Boo!

Well, at least it's on color!

[keys]

Are Pyroblast/REBs worth playing maindeck?

[magicmoocow]

Are Pyroblast/REBs worth playing maindeck?

I'd say it all depends on your meta. Lots of FoW -> Yes. Not many -> No.

If you're saying play those main in addition to sideboard hate -> I don't think that's terribly good because everything is pretty tight. A card hand will, on average, produce 5-7 mana and 1-2 different win conditions. Belcher needs 7 (or 4 + 3), Empty needs 4 (and storm) and Burning Wish needs 6 (2 for the wish and 4 for the wish card).

I've talked to some players that play decks with FoW and most will counter a spell that ramps to 4 mana (some counter Manamorphose). I'd also counter a wish myself, but that's me)

Anyway, 4 mana will usually cost 3-4 cards leaving you with 3-5. Your win condition is another card in hand (leaving 2-4). and if it's a blast, there's going to need to be a spare mana or a spirit guide to cast it (2 more cards, leaving 0-1 leftover). Tight!

If you have an additional cards to side in, usually you're going to cut mana (or fixing if that isn't what you cut to have the blasts main). And that's probably going to clog up your hand and not leave you with enough mana.

Another possibility would be to presideboard (blasts in the main and something like manamorphoses in the board) which might work. Side out if you're not playing against blue.

[magicmoocow]

Has anyone considered Skirk Prospector in this deck? I am aware that he can be a dead card in some draws, but can make a any topdecked win condition an immediate reality off a first turn warrens.

He can:
-Add storm at no mana cost (but a card cost)
-"Float" a red mana across turns
-Turn stalled goblin tokens into mana for a topdecked belcher

I'm not a super-big fan of the warrens kill and I've been finding a lot of the decks are fairly resilient against a warrens for a bunch of guys.

[Deirex]

Pact doesn't belong in Belcher. Its just people trying to use tech from SI that really doesn't belong there. Belcher is a turn 3 combo deck. It can't use Pact effectively.

I agree that pact does not belong in the deck but Belcher being a turn 3 deck? I'm assuming you take ETW tokens into account when you're saying that.
If I can't at least go off into whatever really on the first or 2nd turn I'd mulligan.

[Vacrix]

Sure but the point is that the deck doesn't really win until turn 3 most of the time. Only 4 out of your 11 win conditions allow you to win the turn its played, which means Pact is useless most of the time, unless you want to fit it into Spoils Belcher.. It would actually work in Spoils Belcher. It would give you plenty more access to those Wild Cantor's, allowing you to run 8 virtual copies, which means you don't need to waste a slot on Bayou, making Belcher worse.

[Ozymandias]

What are your thoughts on Chewers versus Sprees? Just because it'll kill a Chalice at one for one mana (whereas Spree'll cost two).

I don't think Infernal Tutor is that great. Can you give me a senario where you go off with it?

I'd really like 1-2 three mana or less spells that make a significant impact on the board in my favor, but can't seem to find them yet. now that I know Windfall is banned, the only one I can think of is something like Infernal Contract.

Chalice at 1 AND thorn of amethyst, both of which are real pains.

Infernal Tutor is good any time you have six mana after wishing (simple with Song+LED or 2 LEDs or multiple Rites, etc. ) because you get to go wish->tutor->Warrens for extra storm. If you have six mana and 1-2 perm mana sources, you can even go for wish-tutor-belcher and win the next turn. It also makes wish and 9 mana an instakill, though I admit that's unlikely. It's also good if your wish with, say, 4 mana floating is Dazed, as you can then IT for a belcher and hope to topdeck to victory.

You can use recross the paths to stack your deck if you land granted, which might be good enough..

[keys]

I want MD Pyroblast for counter-hate, as well as removal against fish. What do you guys think?

What do you guys think about Gutteral Response maindeck instead of REB? It's easier to cast on the fly with ESG, but obviously less versatile. Really the only blue permanent you want to counter is Counterbalance and that's hard to do unless you also have a SSG. Destroying it after it resolves is unlikely. Besides, if you haven't won in the first two turns you probably should've mulliganed. The main threat is still Force of Will.

I really like this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35969) decklist, however I'd run Pyretic Ritual instead of Manamorphose and make some changes to the SB:

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall

4 Desperate Ritual
3 Guttural Response
4 Pyretic Ritual
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Seething Song

4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame

4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

1 Taiga

Sideboard:
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Ingot Chewer (killing Chalice for R instead of RR is significant, but I'd leave one Spree as a Wish target)
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Flame Slash (an elegant answer to various creature threats)
1 Cave-In (I think 1 red card is easier than 1R, and against Zoo if you're facing hate bears and not Mindbreak Traps, then you can pitch REB/Response)
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree

[Piceli89]

I'd rather play Pyroblasts than Guttural response. Pyroblast allows to icnrease the storm count even against non -blue decks using exceeding mana off Rite of flame, Song, and Desperate Ritual.

[Dark Ritual]

Also pyroblast counters counterbalance, which is pretty huge for a combo deck I hear. Pyroblast > Guttural response 100% of the time. There is no reason to play guttural response over pyroblast since red mana is also abundant in this deck so the hybrid mana symbol most likely doesn't matter 99.99% of the time.

Also people PLEASE don't play red elemental blast unless you are running 4x pyroblast already and need more hate against blue. REB is strictly worse than pyroblast due to storm count reasons and being able to blast a land for +1 storm count is quite relevant.

[danielcrocker]

Dark ritual .... How is pyroblast and REB any different .....?

[Darkenslight]

Dark ritual .... How is pyroblast and REB any different .....?

They say 'Blue spell' and 'Blue permanent'. :D

[Pienterekaak]

pyroblast says:
Choose one - Counter target spell if it's blue; or destroy target permanent if it's blue.

while REB says:
Choose one - Counter target blue spell; or destroy target blue permanent.

The difference in the wording makes pyroblast better, since you do not have to target a blue spell
(9/16/2007 Note that Pyroblast can target any spell or permanent, not just a blue one. It checks the color of the target only on resolution.)
Therefore you can target one of your own spells with it, get +1 stormcount, and it will not counter the spell becouse its not blue.
You cannot target your own spells with REB becouse it says it has to be a blue spell

[danielcrocker]

How effective is tendrils and goblin warstrike in the board ?

[Darkenslight]

Tendrils is shite, to be frank. You're NOT Iggy Pop or TES. The double black, in those builds not running Black, is a PitA to get to with 10 Storm.

Goblin War Strike could be useful, but then you become a new deck....hmmm...

[magicmoocow]

Infernal Tutor in the board...

So, in regards to this - turns out it can be quite relevant.

I was up a game in a match at a local Wednesday night Legacy tournament and a friend of mine is looking through my sideboard. "Infernal Tutor? That seems way worse than Diminishing Returns." I say "Yeah, I'm not sure of that card. It can add a storm if I have 6 mana floating and have cracked an LED to get it, but I'd usually just rather draw seven. If I have 11 mana somehow I can get and activate Belcher! It doesn't tend to come up all that often though!" We both chuckle and my opponent goes first.

"Taiga, go"

I go something like:

Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Lotus Petal
Elvish Spirit Guide into Tinder Wall into Grim Monolith
Sac the petals to play Burning Wish, sac one LED in response for RRR and then didn't count my mana and sac the other one in response for... UUU!
Get and play Diminishing Returns with RR floating and an untapped Monolith.
Now at this point some people might be slapping their foreheads. I didn't think 11 mana came up often. Well...

Shuffle my graveyard into my library, exile ten cards and get another 7 card hand with ANOTHER LED and ANOTHER Wish and enough mana to get Infernal Tutor for Belcher and win.

After the match both my opponent and my spectator called me a bad player because I almost threw away a game that I had handily and spend another five minutes doing it.

To be fair, I exiled away my Taiga! Not only is 11 mana relevant, I got to it twice! In one turn!

My list:

1x Taiga
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Chrome Mox
4x Grim Monolith
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Tinder Wall
4x Land Grant
4x Rite of Flame
3x Empty the Warrens
4x Burning Wish
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Seething Song

Sideboard:
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Shattering Spree
1x Simplify <-- Probably should be Reverent Silence
1x Goblin War Strike <-- Probably should be Flame Slash or Chain Lightning
1x Pyroclasm
4x Xantid Swarm
4x Ingot Chewer

I decided on the Pyretics AND the Monoliths so that I know if I need to mulligan. No mystery cards!

[Ando]

How effective is tendrils and goblin warstrike in the board ?

I've had the chance to Tendrils a couple times, it's pretty badass for sure, but the extra SB slot might come in handy more often. Goblin Warstrike has been amazing. The ability to wish for that when you have both a Wish and EtW in your hand, and thus increase your clock by 1 turn is really nice, especially when playing against sweepers which usually seem to get played one turn before they die :P

[MMogg]

Pact doesn't belong in Belcher. Its just people trying to use tech from SI that really doesn't belong there. Belcher is a turn 3 combo deck. It can't use Pact effectively.


I agree that pact does not belong in the deck but Belcher being a turn 3 deck? I'm assuming you take ETW tokens into account when you're saying that.
If I can't at least go off into whatever really on the first or 2nd turn I'd mulligan.

A bit late to the conversation, but I'd like to add a couple of points. First of all, the source of that list with Summoner's Pact is MTGO, which doesn't have Land Grant, yet. Because of that absence, I've been testing landless 2 colour Belcher* on MODO and it performs better than you'd think. I usually go for a Tinder Wall with Pact. Also, I don't really want to switch out Pacts for Pyretic Ritual because Summoner's Pact is often a valuable source of green mana via Chrome Mox. To be honest, I haven't once drawn a Summoner's Pact and thought, "Shit, I wish you were a Land Grant!" Running landless Belcher I feel confident that I will never whiff once I activate Charbelcher and Summoner's Pact does help to facilitate that.

Also, it's usually the first card I sideboard out, which is something you can't really afford to do with Land Grant.

Speaking of sideboards... I haven't found one I like. So far, the only things I'm fairly happy with are Nature's Claim and Pact of Negation. Of course, I also have singleton Empty the Warrens, Goblin War Strike and Shattering Spree. So that's

4 Nature's Claim
4 Pact of Negation
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Shattering Spree
1 Goblin War Strike
4 Xantid Swarm

I'm not so pleased with Swarm and might try Pyroblast in its place. Unfortunately, I haven't had much practice in difficult situations. I like Claim so far because it fills that same role as Pact and Land Grant when it comes to green and Chrome Mox, and it also takes care of random artifact and enchantments (*cough* Leyline *cough*). Frankly, I don't want to waste a Burning Wish looking for a Spree.

* Pretty much just a basic traditional green-red Belcher with no Land Grants (Summoner's Pact) or land (+1 Ritual).

[Augustas]

whatsup? maybe someone can post some recent tournament reports?

[flrn]

I decided on the Pyretics AND the Monoliths so that I know if I need to mulligan. No mystery cards!

That's exactly what I'm thinking too. My list looks exactly like yours, but I'm using another Sideboard. For reference:

4 Autumn's Veil
4 Pyroblast
1 Chain Lightning
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Reverent Silence
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering Spree
1 Simplify

I like Pyroblast/Autumn's Veil better than Xantid Swarm, because they allow to do action on turn 1. With Swarm I need to wait a round and the protection can be fucked up by spot removal. The rest is wishboard, since I don't see any reason to play Ingot Chewer. I have Shattering Spree in the wishboard to handle artifacts, and the only artifact I can't handle with that setup is Trinisphere. But a Trinisphere in play also doesn't get handled by Ingot Chewer, since it's very unlikely to get the mana to pay for him. I play both Simplify and Reverent Silence, because I don't wanna loose against a prison effect, if I didn't hit my Taiga already.

[Sunsatzu]

how is running both autumn's veil and xantid swarm not better than running less utility?

e.g.

4 Xantid Swarm
4 Autumn's Veil
3 Pyroblast (i wonder if this is needed anymore, could just be more utility)
1 Simplify/Reverent Silence (u do not need both)
1 Empty the Warrens (Goblin War Strike is 'win more')
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering Spree

[Vacrix]

A bit late to the conversation, but I'd like to add a couple of points. First of all, the source of that list with Summoner's Pact is MTGO, which doesn't have Land Grant, yet. Because of that absence, I've been testing landless 2 colour Belcher* on MODO and it performs better than you'd think. I usually go for a Tinder Wall with Pact. Also, I don't really want to switch out Pacts for Pyretic Ritual because Summoner's Pact is often a valuable source of green mana via Chrome Mox. To be honest, I haven't once drawn a Summoner's Pact and thought, "Shit, I wish you were a Land Grant!" Running landless Belcher I feel confident that I will never whiff once I activate Charbelcher and Summoner's Pact does help to facilitate that.

Also, it's usually the first card I sideboard out, which is something you can't really afford to do with Land Grant.
Yes but traditional Belcher lists run BW and EtW, and when 7/11 of your win conditions don't win on the spot, Pact becomes a liability instead of an asset.
The only way I could see that build working is if you included something like Spoils of the Vault, and/or Plunge into Darkness.

Whats your build look like?

[kinda]

I'm also curious to see how people made lists with pact...this is what I came up with:

Lands
1 [R] Bayou
1 [A] Taiga

// Creatures
2 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
3 [GP] Wild Cantor
1 [CST] Tinder Wall

// Spells
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
4 [OV] Meditate
4 [FUT] Summoner's Pact
4 [MR] Spoils of the Vault
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [FNM] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [DDE] Dark Ritual
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains

[MMogg]

Yes but traditional Belcher lists run BW and EtW, and when 7/11 of your win conditions don't win on the spot, Pact becomes a liability instead of an asset.
The only way I could see that build working is if you included something like Spoils of the Vault, and/or Plunge into Darkness.

Whats your build look like?

My current list is here:

http://www.mymtgo.com/view_deck.php?did=1719

I tried Spoils in a :b::g::r: Belcher build, but I ended up more colour-mana screwed than I end up screwed with this straight up :g::r: landless variant. Maybe I'll tinker around with a straight :b::r: version.

I would say my list's greatest strength is its consistency. I don't usually "fizzle" and if I have Beclher or Burning Wish in hand, I don't find I'm sitting there waiting for mana. It's greatest weakness is that I'm forced to mulligan amazing mana hands in search or Wishes or Belchers and with Spoils, that gives you more "business" to draw and so less need to mulligan. That said, so many times when I played Spoils Belcher I am left waiting for that all important initial mana source. Just hated it.

[Vacrix]

Color screw shouldn't be an issue if you have access to Wild Cantor, Manamorphose, and Pact-->Wild Cantor. If I played Pact in Belcher it would look something like this:

Pact Belcher:
Initial Mana - 20
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

Mana Filter - 6
4 Manamorphose
2 Wild Cantor

Rituals - 15
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
3 Seething Song

Other - 7
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Tinder Wall

Business - 12
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Plunge into Darkness

Its a really rough list as you can probably see. It forgoes Land Grant as starting mana in favor of Summoner's Pact. Pact also facilitates Culling the Weak. SI enables Culling the Weak with as few as 7 creatures, but long spell chains usually make it not a dead card while Belcher uses primarily its opening 7, which makes me think that 10 creatures MD is probably not enough to support Culling at the moment. Plunge is significantly worse than Spoils because it costs 1 less, but Spoils is amazing. I love that you can use it to find LED to activate Belcher.


@kinda
I'm confused as to how your list works. You have x4 Tendrils but no way to reach 10 storm consistently. Is Meditate any good?

[MMogg]

I don't get the use of Wild Cantor. I'll probably add one as a singleton and see if there is ever a situation where I want to look for it. If I have :g: available and need red, then go for a Tinder Wall. If I have :r: available and need a :g: then go for Elvish Spirit Guide, which is also uncounterable mana. I'm just not sure when I would specifically need WC. He doesn't add to the mana, he's just a fixer, like Manamorphose, so I find it worse than Spirit Guides or Tinder Wall. I'm not usually colour screwed in the list I linked, I'm colour screwed when going tri-colour, which also doesn't run Pacts as far as I know.

That list doesn't look very good because SI has plenty of draw to refill its hand and this doesn't. Plunge looks for 1 card and that's for a 2 mana investment. The biggest problem with Belcher is that, apart from Chrome Mox, it's all non-reusable mana sources, which, to me, has a huge impact with cards like Spoils and Plunge as you have to invest precious mana and then maybe still need to wait. Spoiling into a needed LED to activate Belcher is indeed sweet, but way to situational to make it worth it.

That said, I'm still going to try to whip up a straight :b::r: Belcher list right now. :smile: