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rupus
08-09-2011, 12:22 PM
That seems reasonable. Take this with a grain of salt because I am awful at boarding but I think you want to leave in mix and land grant because having permanent mana sources is very important against blue. Also, I don't like cutting rites because you want multiples. Seething song I'm not sure about because it's one of the only cards that gives you +2 mana, but it does leave you more open to blowouts. I've heard people have success taking out the cantrips but I would probably leave the probes in at least.

One more thing. You probably know this but if you have a belcher and an led play the led first and if belcher resolves you get priority back so you can crack the led and activate belcher before they can k grip you. The same goes for if you have 7 mana floating + a belcher. Don't give away wins by letting people pull that crap.

HokusSchmokus
08-09-2011, 12:47 PM
I knew this. i take out 1 Rite to have access to them whenever I want. Probably right bout Land Grand and Mox tho.

rupus
08-09-2011, 12:53 PM
I knew this. i take out 1 Rite to have access to them whenever I want. Probably right bout Land Grand and Mox tho.

Yeah, I figured you probably did. It just really sucks losing to something like that so I figured I might as well point it out. Taking out the rite actually makes a lot of sense when you put it like that. Maybe you could try 2 manamorphose or 1 morphose 1 probe or 1 morphose and 1 desperate ritual instead of mox and land grant. I'm also not sure about cutting a EtW because you really want to keep up your threat density but I've tried cutting one before and it never really felt like a problem so it's probably ok to take 1 out.

HokusSchmokus
08-09-2011, 01:27 PM
I cut ETW bc the control decks nowadays are usually either landstill, who will bring in Explosives regardless or Stoneblade , who can race tokens.
What about the maindeck?

rupus
08-09-2011, 01:47 PM
The maindeck seems really solid. I'm not entirely sure if playing 8 cantrips is better than playing 4 cantrips and 4 pyretic rituals but I've never tried. I've played with only 4 cantrips or 8 cantrips but no burning wishes but never 8 cantrips and burning wishes. That being said, probe is a very good card in belcher so I really like the list you have. Do you ever have trouble getting from 2 to 3 mana? If not you're probably set but if you are having trouble you may want to consider something like -1 probe, -1 ESG, +2 pyretic rituals. If it's working don't go screwing it up by taking my questionable advice though.

HokusSchmokus
08-10-2011, 05:21 AM
The maindeck seems really solid. I'm not entirely sure if playing 8 cantrips is better than playing 4 cantrips and 4 pyretic rituals but I've never tried. I've played with only 4 cantrips or 8 cantrips but no burning wishes but never 8 cantrips and burning wishes. That being said, probe is a very good card in belcher so I really like the list you have. Do you ever have trouble getting from 2 to 3 mana? If not you're probably set but if you are having trouble you may want to consider something like -1 probe, -1 ESG, +2 pyretic rituals. If it's working don't go screwing it up by taking my questionable advice though.
So far in testing this Issue never came up. Burning Wishes are needed I think, if only because of Goblin War Strike which will be a huge card against Stoneblade.
I think I will write a report if I don't go 1-x-drop on Sunday.

rupus
08-10-2011, 12:09 PM
So far in testing this Issue never came up. Burning Wishes are needed I think, if only because of Goblin War Strike which will be a huge card against Stoneblade.
I think I will write a report if I don't go 1-x-drop on Sunday.

Yeah, in my experience the wish versions are infinitely more consistent. 11 win cons vs 8 is a huge difference. Not to mention how powerful the wishboard can be, especially warstrike for mystic decks like you said. I tried goldfishing your list and it played out really smoothly. I think that 8 cantrips and 0 pyretic rituals will become the standard for belcher lists because probe does so much and pyretic rituals was the worst card in the deck anyways. There's also something nice about a deck that's just a big list of 4 ofs.

What's your sideboard look like now? Did you decide to cut the tendrils for diminishing returns? Anyway, I look forward to reading your report.

HokusSchmokus
08-10-2011, 04:29 PM
Yes, my Sb is -1 Tendrils +1 DR, but I could not test properly with it yet. Goldfish-wise it works. Funny that my first take on a Belcher list works so good :D

Edith did some testing too, and told me that this deck likes to fizzle via DR a lot. I'm still not too sold on cutting Tendrils for DR. Hard times...all this decisions...=(

Edit2: K1w1 wanna meet up in IS? Little Nerdtalking on how it went on so on? If so, send me a pm how I can find you ;D

OurSerratedDust
09-02-2011, 09:37 PM
I'm just finishing up a belcher piloting simulation I'm writing in Java. I still need to add a couple features, but so far I've tuned the deck to get a first turn win ratio almost 10% better than standard belcher lists. Once I fully optimize the deck and bring it to an event, I'll post the list here. Keep your eyes peeled!

OurSerratedDust
10-18-2011, 05:54 PM
Posted this on Storm Boards, and thought it might be useful for some of you guys:

Got some interesting statistics from my simulations for Diminshing Returns in a standard RG belcher list. I assume you have five storm (including DR) and my simulation alternates between four situations:
-RFGed Wish and SSG
-RFGed Wish and ESG
-Chrome Mox in play + RFGed Wish and random imprinted card
-RFGed Wish and taiga in play

Results are given as percent of wins off of Diminshing Returns.

Preboard:
With no mana floating - 42.32%
R floating - 62.67%
G floating - 60.46%
RR floating - 70.46%
RG floating - 71.12%
GG floating - 66.15%

Postboard (board in 6-8 Xantid/REB):
With no mana floating - 29.32%
R floating - 52.52%
G floating - 49.77%
RR floating - 65.31%
RG floating - 66.66%
GG floating - 58.52%

The big thing to underline here is that you may need to be more cautious using DR postboard. Also, average storm count with DR is ~11, so using bw->Tendrils seems like a good plan.

JJ_JKidd
10-18-2011, 10:08 PM
Posted this on Storm Boards, and thought it might be useful for some of you guys:

Got some interesting statistics from my simulations for Diminshing Returns in a standard RG belcher list. I assume you have five storm (including DR) and my simulation alternates between four situations:
-RFGed Wish and SSG
-RFGed Wish and ESG
-Chrome Mox in play + RFGed Wish and random imprinted card
-RFGed Wish and taiga in play

Results are given as percent of wins off of Diminshing Returns.

Preboard:
With no mana floating - 42.32%
R floating - 62.67%
G floating - 60.46%
RR floating - 70.46%
RG floating - 71.12%
GG floating - 66.15%

Postboard (board in 6-8 Xantid/REB):
With no mana floating - 29.32%
R floating - 52.52%
G floating - 49.77%
RR floating - 65.31%
RG floating - 66.66%
GG floating - 58.52%

The big thing to underline here is that you may need to be more cautious using DR postboard. Also, average storm count with DR is ~11, so using bw->Tendrils seems like a good plan.

Do you have some kind of software for your simulation? Or just the manual goldfishing?

OurSerratedDust
10-18-2011, 10:49 PM
I wrote a Belcher simulation in java, and modified it for cases with Diminishing Returns.

yankeedave
10-20-2011, 12:32 PM
I'm just finishing up a belcher piloting simulation I'm writing in Java. I still need to add a couple features, but so far I've tuned the deck to get a first turn win ratio almost 10% better than standard belcher lists. Once I fully optimize the deck and bring it to an event, I'll post the list here. Keep your eyes peeled!

Thanks for your updates using DR, but have you finished your new optimised list through the simulator yet? I would be interested in hearing about it.

OurSerratedDust
10-20-2011, 09:18 PM
I'm going to a large event in two or three weeks and I'm going to do a report/write up on the list, regardless of how I do.

2sided3angle
10-25-2011, 10:53 AM
Played Belcher at the SCG Baltimore event. Went 4-4, 70ish place out of 200+

Lost do decks that had either FOW or ways to deal with the swarm of goblins, two of the four being Alex Bertoncini and AJ Sacher.

2sided3angle
11-15-2011, 04:10 PM
So... with Belcher, how do you play against counter magic?

Do you still want the explosiveness of turn 1 with a ETW or pray that Belcher doesn't get countered? Do you slow you style down?

Fortunae
11-16-2011, 04:31 AM
Hi everyone, I am currently in the midst of assembling Belcher and was asked today whether I am building it with or without land. Can someone give me a quick rundown of the pros and cons of each? It seems like landless Belcher would be better since you are guaranteed to kill them with an activation, but I really don't know.

Thanks!

Parax
11-16-2011, 06:10 AM
Hi everyone, I am currently in the midst of assembling Belcher and was asked today whether I am building it with or without land. Can someone give me a quick rundown of the pros and cons of each? It seems like landless Belcher would be better since you are guaranteed to kill them with an activation, but I really don't know.

Thanks!

Run one land, with 4 Land Grant. It goes a long way and its like running 5 lands!

yankeedave
11-16-2011, 07:38 AM
I'm going to a large event in two or three weeks and I'm going to do a report/write up on the list, regardless of how I do.

Hey mate, any news on the hot tech? I have a tourney this weekend and I want to play something unfair!

andrebonotto
11-18-2011, 01:34 PM
Greetings for all,

I followed this thread for some time, but now I think it looks very quiet :confused: ...

Since I'm trying to finish my Belcher deck (I'm currently 1x LED shorter), I was wondering:

1) Is Belcher still competitive in today's metagame? :eyebrow:

2) Do you know any relevant results of Belcher players? :cool:

3) How good is Goblin Welder in the deck (MD or SB) nowadays?

4)
(...) any news on the hot tech? (...) !
Has someone came upon any new tech that improve this deck's strategie? :wink:


Any insights are welcome. :smile: ...

Anen
11-18-2011, 01:45 PM
3) How good is Goblin Welder in the deck (MD or SB) nowadays?


It's not good since you don't give priority between the cast and the activation. And if you do, it means you don't have enough mana, so you don't wanna spend one more in Welder. My opinion.

John Cox
11-18-2011, 09:46 PM
Greetings for all,

I followed this thread for some time, but now I think it looks very quiet :confused: ...

Since I'm trying to finish my Belcher deck (I'm currently 1x LED shorter), I was wondering:

1) Is Belcher still competitive in today's metagame? :eyebrow:

2) Do you know any relevant results of Belcher players? :cool:

3) How good is Goblin Welder in the deck (MD or SB) nowadays?

4)
Has someone came upon any new tech that improve this deck's strategie? :wink:


Any insights are welcome. :smile: ...

1) It's not the best, theres a lot of blue running around and that always trouble for belcher.
2) I haven't really seen a whole lot.
3) It would be great in our metagame if every deck didn't have a ton of removal. Welding back a countered goblin charbelcher would be great, but I doubt goblin welder would last till it lost summoning sickness.
4) Some people have mentioned Serum Powder, I tried it about a year ago and did well, that may be worth looking at.

jan64
11-20-2011, 04:02 AM
Hi, I played belcher at GP Amsterdam, and made day 2 with it ( i think there where 2 belchers day 2).

my ideas about the deck:
1) it's not tier 1 but can make great results
2) it's an easy deck, and you have lots time left to eat between rounds
3) it hates blue decks
4) its fun, thats whats its all about in MtG!

I started not concentrated with the first 3 rounds 1-2, and then made 6-0.
Last round day one 1st game won on my first turn, 2nd game he played his first land of the match, duressed me ( took belcher), my first turn i draw belcher and won :-).
Must be hard to lose your ticket for day 2 that way.
Day 2 started with 2 wins, and then the blue decks came :frown: 3 losses and drop...
1-2 to 9-2 ending 9-5 was a good run for me!

We ( a friend played it to, once made 10-0 with it on a legacy side event at a GP...) played a version with 3 serum powder main deck ( out: 3 chrome moxes, still playing 1 chrome mox). Chrome mox is to many times a dead card in your opening hand. Serum powder's free mulligan gave me more wins!!! Always fun to see your opp's face when you remove your hand (face up! ) from the game, and say mulligan to 7!
Once in mul to 7, mul to 6, mul to 6 and won turn one ( there was 1 win con gone, so i draw from a deck with 47 cards and 10 win con!!! )

SB: must gaves:
diminishing returns
EtW
4 pyroblast
4 xantid swarm ( with those and the pyroblast its still running uphill against blue counters)
pyroclasm ( against those pesky teegs )
shattering spree

GoldenCid
11-20-2011, 10:14 AM
I'm not sure if serum powder is a necesity altohugh it's interesting. Belcher has the best T1 hands in the format, that's a reality. You opo MUST have FoW (on the draw) in his opening hand or he/she probably will die to us. This is another reality.
Another thing that's true is that against U decks your opo will mull up to have at least 2 counters in hand which is terrible. Once it happened to a friend of mine running belcher: his oppo mull to 5 and got 2 Fow 1 island and a Pierce! Off course his counter hate was not enought. However, belcher, which is a fair Tier 1.5, has the first 2 characterics mantioned by jan64, it's an all in all deck you win or loose quickly which imports in long tournamnets and makes a very very high pressure on your opo. I was thinking on a 2 land version as a response to the meta to include discard stuff but i hesitate if it's really necesary. This is how i'm running it nowadays (12 cantrips belcher):

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [U] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Street Wraith

// Spells
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [9E] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [LRW] Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast

Cheers,

GC.

Beatusnox
11-20-2011, 03:31 PM
played at a local tournament last weekend. Went 3-3. lost round one due to not mulling aggresively enough. Won against mono red. Lost to bant. 1-2. Free win next round(bye). Free win following round (dredge). And lost in round six to reanimator.

All in all I'm happy with how the deck performed, upset at my inability to mulligan aggresivey enough. As for hot new tech, 2 of past in flames in a more ritual heavy build. Allows for even more explosive turn ones

Vacrix
11-20-2011, 07:53 PM
I'm not sure if serum powder is a necesity altohugh it's interesting. Belcher has the best T1 hands in the format, that's a reality. You opo MUST have FoW (on the draw) in his opening hand or he/she probably will die to us. This is another reality.
This is not reality. SI has always been the fastest deck in the format. It has a far higher turn 1 win percentage even than Serum Powder belcher lists. This is because the deck only needs 3 cards to go off. Further, Belcher lists tend to empty their entire hand into one play while SI only uses part of its hand to go off, meaning that if the opponent DOES have FoW, then you aren't completely blown out.
Further, SI mulligans better than any other deck in the format for this same reason.

Just wanted to clear that up.

andrebonotto
11-20-2011, 10:48 PM
Now this thread seems a bit alive :smile:


@Anen:

I was thinking about using Welder more in a "countered-Belcher-backup-plan" way...

Still, as John Cox pointed, the meta is full of removal, and I think I'm following his conclusion that we should "doubt goblin welder would last till it lost summoning sickness"... :frown:


@Jonh Cox

Because of the U-decks running around, how do you think one should evaluete his initial hand playing in a tournament, in order to have a "safe start" against an unknow deck?


@Beatusnox

What would you mean by "mulligan aggresivey enough" ? (To have a win-con and the mana to activate it?)


-----------------------------

about Serum Powder...

I heard about it, but someone pointed that it makes our initial hands more dificult to evaluate. Since I don't have much experience with the deck, I think I'll start without it and see how it goes.


about playing nowadays...

It was nice to read about jan64's experience at GP Amsterdam, for since I hadn't heard a word about Belcher playing in recent tournaments, I was wondering if this deck was indeed "playable" anymore (there are some people on my meta that have already gave up on it) :rolleyes:


about deckbuilding...

I'm building a RG version with 11 win-con MD (4 Belcher, 4 Burning Wish, 3 ETW), 4 Chrome Mox, and planning on the following SB:


1 Empty the Warrens
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Pyroclasm
1 Hull Breach
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Diminishing Returns

However, I have doubts on how to use Diminishing Returns properly.

I am, too, a bit hesitanting on this configuration of the SB. Do you have suggestions of upgrades on it?


P.S.: Why to use Ingot Chewer over Shattering Spree? (Or why to split between them?) Spree seems superior to me because of the Replicate ability. Would Chewer frequently see play as a permanent creature?

Final Fortune
11-21-2011, 12:01 AM
Diminishing Returns is a fail safe against aggressive mulliganing, you'll find if you're forced to mull to 5 that you can still resolve Burning Wish but without the storm to generate a lethal wave of goblins where Dimisning Returns allows you to draw a new 7 and free rolls you into + 5 storm. It's also probably the strongest top deck play, as you'll spend most of your mana trying to resolve a Belcher, get it countered with a Lion's Eye Diamond in hand and then rip a Burning Wish off the top and just go for it.

Serum Powder hands aren't really hard to evaluate, you ask yourself whether or not you can kill with the 6 cards in your hand or the 6 cards in your hand + a top decked mana source (I'm not counting Serum Powder itself) and if not you ship the hand. I actually think the cantrip lists are way harder (and shittier) to play because you have to mull any hand with 6 mana sources and a cantrip because the odds of drawing a win condition are pretty terrible and after the printing of the new red ritual, green chancellor and the unbanning of Monolith there's pretty much no reason to play that shit because you're glutted for accelerants.

Also I agree with Vacrix, SI is a better deck than Belcher, people just play Belcher because it's "child proof."

Vacrix
11-21-2011, 12:10 AM
I'm actually interested in lists that run Recross the Paths. Is anyone running it and do you have any results specifically to Recross hands?

Beatusnox
11-21-2011, 02:27 AM
by the mulligans i mean i kept a hand that allowed 10 goblins which while normally getting there, didnt against intuition elves. Game two, i keep a hand that generates 6 mana and go for warrens again and once again its not enough.

Also, dont be discouraged by people detracting from the deck. It takes more skill and finess(sheer dumb luck helps too) to pilot to a good placement than many other combo decks do.

2sided3angle
11-21-2011, 01:18 PM
Now this thread seems a bit alive :smile:


@Anen:

I was thinking about using Welder more in a "countered-Belcher-backup-plan" way...

Still, as John Cox pointed, the meta is full of removal, and I think I'm following his conclusion that we should "doubt goblin welder would last till it lost summoning sickness"... :frown:


@Jonh Cox

Because of the U-decks running around, how do you think one should evaluete his initial hand playing in a tournament, in order to have a "safe start" against an unknow deck?


@Beatusnox

What would you mean by "mulligan aggresivey enough" ? (To have a win-con and the mana to activate it?)


-----------------------------

about Serum Powder...

I heard about it, but someone pointed that it makes our initial hands more dificult to evaluate. Since I don't have much experience with the deck, I think I'll start without it and see how it goes.


about playing nowadays...

It was nice to read about jan64's experience at GP Amsterdam, for since I hadn't heard a word about Belcher playing in recent tournaments, I was wondering if this deck was indeed "playable" anymore (there are some people on my meta that have already gave up on it) :rolleyes:


about deckbuilding...

I'm building a RG version with 11 win-con MD (4 Belcher, 4 Burning Wish, 3 ETW), 4 Chrome Mox, and planning on the following SB:


1 Empty the Warrens
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Pyroclasm
1 Hull Breach
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Diminishing Returns

However, I have doubts on how to use Diminishing Returns properly.

I am, too, a bit hesitanting on this configuration of the SB. Do you have suggestions of upgrades on it?


P.S.: Why to use Ingot Chewer over Shattering Spree? (Or why to split between them?) Spree seems superior to me because of the Replicate ability. Would Chewer frequently see play as a permanent creature?

With Diminishing Returns, how can you properly cast it?

Also, as a Belcher beginner/novice, I was wondering how to 'properly use' Burning Wish

John Cox
11-21-2011, 06:13 PM
With Diminishing Returns, how can you properly cast it?

Also, as a Belcher beginner/novice, I was wondering how to 'properly use' Burning Wish

I really dislike returns, I usually go for goblins with wish. This is really a safer move in the current meta for game ones because your not giving your opponent a second chance at Mulliganing into a force. Game two and three if your opponent mulligans a lot you probably are going to be up against a force or mindbreak trap, so returns isn't going to resolve if you don't have a pyroblast. My recommendation for postboard against blue is to mulligan into empty the warrens then draw the hand that has your acceleration. This really guarantees that you'll have a storm win. If they counter some of your rituals you'll just get more storm.

Also on the number of goblins, unless your playing against storm or some aggro light (intuition elves probably falls into this category) deck you need at least 12 goblins turn 1 and 16 turn 2-3 to guarantee a win.

GoldenCid
11-21-2011, 06:21 PM
This is not reality. SI has always been the fastest deck in the format. It has a far higher turn 1 win percentage even than Serum Powder belcher lists. This is because the deck only needs 3 cards to go off. Further, Belcher lists tend to empty their entire hand into one play while SI only uses part of its hand to go off, meaning that if the opponent DOES have FoW, then you aren't completely blown out.
Further, SI mulligans better than any other deck in the format for this same reason.

Just wanted to clear that up.

Oook, let's say that after SI, Belcher has the most explosives T1 hands.
A testing note: How good is Gitaxian Probe in this deck. It provides us unvaluable infrmation to shape our game plan.



P.S.: Why to use Ingot Chewer over Shattering Spree? (Or why to split between them?) Spree seems superior to me because of the Replicate ability. Would Chewer frequently see play as a permanent creature?

Ingot chewer has been considered due to you can evoke it thought chalice with just (R). Almost never it sees play as "permanent creature".

andrebonotto
11-22-2011, 08:39 AM
@ Beatusnox:

Ok, understood. :smile:



@ 2sided3angle:


If by "how can you properly cast it" you're asking about mana production necessary for it, the answer is Manamorphose.

But if you were asking about "tech mastering", then I think Final Fortune answered it (I had a doubt on it to) - although, as John Cox pointed, it can be risky or ineffective against blue decks. :smile:



@ John Cox:

By stating that it would be required a greater number of goblins (i.e., 12 instead of 10) from storm count, I assume that this would be for preventing some random blocks that could obstruct you from winning (or could gain the opponent a little more turns, what could get the same result), is that right?

But if you had an initial hand that could go only for 10 goblins, would you not keep it?




@ Vacrix:

Never heard of anyone using Recross the Paths, but as a first thought it doesn't appear to be superior to Land Grant, if the plan would be to substitue it.



@ GoldenCid:

Hmmm, thanks. I did not think that Chewer could be a resource to avoid Chalices... :smile:

Namida
11-22-2011, 09:27 AM
@ Vacrix:

Never heard of anyone using Recross the Paths, but as a first thought it doesn't appear to be superior to Land Grant, if the plan would be to substitue it.

I haven't heard anything about Recross the Paths either, but it looks like it could be interesting if you had any way to draw cards in this deck, since you actually get to stack your deck if you cast this spell with no land in your library.

2sided3angle
11-22-2011, 11:11 AM
I really dislike returns, I usually go for goblins with wish. This is really a safer move in the current meta for game ones because your not giving your opponent a second chance at Mulliganing into a force. Game two and three if your opponent mulligans a lot you probably are going to be up against a force or mindbreak trap, so returns isn't going to resolve if you don't have a pyroblast. My recommendation for postboard against blue is to mulligan into empty the warrens then draw the hand that has your acceleration.

Agree both on Returns and Mulliganing to ETW. Seems in the meta, you are almost dependant on a ETW hand rather than Belching.

Would it be almost better to run 4 MD ETW and 3 Charbelchers?

Namida
11-22-2011, 11:17 AM
Agree both on Returns and Mulliganing to ETW. Seems in the meta, you are almost dependant on a ETW hand rather than Belching.

Would it be almost better to run 4 MD ETW and 3 Charbelchers?

Without the Sideboard Empty The Warrens, Burning Wish is not a win condition.

I haven't played much Belcher, but I was under the impression that Diminishing Returns is solely for the Storm matchup, where Empty The Warrens can easily be outraced.

John Cox
11-22-2011, 11:41 PM
Agree both on Returns and Mulliganing to ETW. Seems in the meta, you are almost dependant on a ETW hand rather than Belching.

Would it be almost better to run 4 MD ETW and 3 Charbelchers?

The list that took gencon by storm a year or two back (came first or second) had 4 Empty, and 4 Belchers, with cantrips main in place of the Burning wishes. Burning wish is by no means holy.





@ John Cox:

By stating that it would be required a greater number of goblins (i.e., 12 instead of 10) from storm count, I assume that this would be for preventing some random blocks that could obstruct you from winning (or could gain the opponent a little more turns, what could get the same result), is that right?

But if you had an initial hand that could go only for 10 goblins, would you not keep it?




That really depends on what the hand needs to be able to make more goblins. Ten is a bad number because of the combat math. If they went first and played a nacatl, then they get the chance to have two creatures out when I attack the first time. I'll deal 8 damage and have 8 goblins left, the next turn they could play a goyf + another creature or burn spell and I'll swing with 3-4 less goblins, doing 4-5 damage total. The next swing may even not connect.
Twelve is a safe number because adding the medium case scenario up, I'll do exactly 20 damage against zoo/goblins/sligh/whatever.
If the hand just needs a burning wish to put out double warrens, or a drawing a mana source would let me cast a cantrip instead of imprinting it on chrome mox, I'll probably wait a turn and go for 16 goblins on turn 2-3. If its my first seven and it can only produce 10 goblins, I would defiantly mull(The exception being I'm playing against blue and the hand has a pyroblast in it). The weird thing is a blue opponent isn't going to have 3 creatures out on turn 2 or 3 so 10 goblins is fine there, but against an aggro deck 10 isn't enough.


Without the Sideboard Empty The Warrens, Burning Wish is not a win condition.

I haven't played much Belcher, but I was under the impression that Diminishing Returns is solely for the Storm matchup, where Empty The Warrens can easily be outraced.

Not only the Storm match, just for when you can be outraced. Even then I still prefer Goblins in those situations(not as much as belcher but I more than returns), Diminishing returns can be very random at getting you what you need and help your opponent.

Vacrix
11-23-2011, 05:17 AM
I haven't heard anything about Recross the Paths either, but it looks like it could be interesting if you had any way to draw cards in this deck, since you actually get to stack your deck if you cast this spell with no land in your library.
Especially with access to now 12 cyclers (now including Gitixian Probe). You could even play Summoner's Pacts instead of Land Grants and still have 20 IMS. All you need is 6 mana, Recross the Paths, and a cycler to win. Imagine stacking the deck like:

Manamorphose into 2U:
Meditate --> LED, LED, LED, Gitixian Probe
Play out LED x3, Probe, break LED's in response --> Belcher, play and activate. Getting to 6 isn't that hard for Belcher.

WarpWorld
11-23-2011, 05:04 PM
Recross the Paths is to slow. The point of Land Grant is that it is free and it nets mana. So +1 storm and +1 mana. It is dead in multipules, it makes a good Chrome Mox target.

I have been running Serum Powder in my list for about 2 yeards now and love it. It makes mulligan choices really easy although they were not very hard to begin with. I would run no more than 3 because it is a dead draw on any turn.

Infinitium
11-24-2011, 09:48 AM
@Varix: I remember trying out Recross earlier in this thread. Never tested it properly since Belcher isn't a fun deck to play at the end of the day (also: nightmare to play on MWS).

Link (www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18153-SCD-Recross-the-Paths)

There's actually a lot more nifty things you can do with recross than you've stated thus far; for an instance you have an excellent chance of getting the Recross back after playing it for Taiga, meaning that you can conceivably go off without Land Grant with an additional 2 mana (and having access to Land Grant is probably more important than the extra Recross kills anyhow). Also you only need 2 cyclers or 1 cycler and 3 mana to go off immediatly after Recross (since 1 cycler can be substituted for LED at will), and you can stack these on top of the deck to win 1/2 turns irregardless.

EDIT: Come think of it, one should probably add Tendrils to the SB since BW -> Tendrils is only 6 mana as opposed to Belcher -> Activate's 7. Gives some more leeway in the more convoluted piles.

GoldenCid
11-24-2011, 04:04 PM
Especially with access to now 12 cyclers (now including Gitixian Probe). You could even play Summoner's Pacts instead of Land Grants and still have 20 IMS. All you need is 6 mana, Recross the Paths, and a cycler to win. Imagine stacking the deck like:

Manamorphose into 2U:
Meditate --> LED, LED, LED, Gitixian Probe
Play out LED x3, Probe, break LED's in response --> Belcher, play and activate. Getting to 6 isn't that hard for Belcher.

I m sure that you are "well intentioned" but at first glance it is unhealthy to run so many cmc 3 cards, maybe if you share a list it would be possible to clarify this point.

Vacrix
11-24-2011, 05:13 PM
Recross the Paths shouldn't EVER be compared with Land Grant. Land Grant is effectively a 0cc IMS while Recross the Paths is a 3cc business spell. In regards to cutting Land Grant, that was a different point entirely, opting to replace Land Grant with Summoner's Pact, which is a 0cc IMS that is effectively Pact --> ESG --> G. I don't know if that is good or not, I'm going to my local store on friday to pick up the pieces to test this out, but the idea is that if you can cut Land Grants and the Taiga, then you still have 20 IMS's and thats enough to get the combo started because you will see one every 3 cards or so.

Recross the Paths, was suggested by Infinitum on page 41. Honestly I think this is what Belcher ought to evolve into anyway because its been a HUR-DURR deck for far too long.


Still no love for Recross the Paths people? With 3 Mana available and Taiga on the table it's a strictly better Doomsday. Without the Taiga it's effectively a 3cc sorcery that finds that Taiga and then has an above-average chance of clashing itself right back into your hand, and with an extra 2 mana investment you get to tap that Taiga and replay it on the spot.

Anyway since my last input didn't really spark any discussion I'm going to go ahead and post a mini-primer instead. It's at least worth the consideration Imo.

// Lands
1 Taiga

// Creatures
4 [CST] Tinder Wall
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
1 [OV] Meditate
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
3 [MOR] Recross the Paths
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
3 [9E] Seething Song

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MOR] Recross the Paths
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [MM] Cave-In
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [LG] Chain Lightning
SB: 1 [6E] Infernal Contract
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [MM] Crash
SB: 1 [MM] Thunderclap
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm

[B]Mini-Q&A
Q: What does Recross the Paths do?
A: It reveals cards off the top of your library until it hits a land card and then puts the revealed cards back in any order at the bottom of it, meaning that if you don't have any lands left in it you get to stack it from the bottom up.
Q: Doesn't that make it useless unless you also draw the Taiga/Land Grant?
A: It makes it worse, but not entirely useless. You can still play it to find the aforementioned Taiga, and with any luck you'll also win the clash meaning that you get your investment back. Remember that with the Taiga you only need another 2 mana to replay it the same turn..
Q: How fast do you win after stacking your deck?
A: Depends on how many cantrips and/or Mana floating you've got left after Recrossing. With 3 mana and a cantrip OR 2 cantrips (and 2 mana for Manamorphose should you not have 2 Wraiths) on hand you can win the same turn you Recross. With one Cantrip OR the means of producing 3 mana you'll win the next turn. If you have an empty hand you'll need to spend 2 turns drawing into Mana as well as the Meditate to initiate the piles; preferrably by topdecking a LED and a Street Wraith - which is still as fast as EtW in the vast majority of all situations.
Q: Isn't EtW better versus blue-based decks?
A: Nah. They can still counter your mana sources to prevent you from reaching 4 Mana (especially if you had to use Land Grant and they see it coming), and 12+ Goblins isn't a guaranteed win by a long shot since there isn't a deck out there that won't be able to deal with them at least postside.

Generic Piles:

Kill Pile (as ordered from top through bottom):
*Street Wraith (for Clashing if you wanna get the Recross back for Imprinting Chrome Mox)
*Setup (Whatever is still needed to cast Meditate ASAP - see the Mini-FAQ)
Meditate
LED
LED
Lotus Petal (If you have a surplus mana you can substitute this for Thunderclap/Crash/Reverent Silence to remove inconvenient permanents game 2)
Street Wraith
Goblin Charbelcher

Do your preparations. Cast Meditate to draw into the LED's and Wraith. Cycle the Wraith whilst cracking the LED's in response and end up with Charbelcher in hand and 7-9 mana in pool. Win.

Slightly more convoluted kill that can also deal with whatever hate they managed Pile:
*Street Wraith
*Setup
Meditate
LED
LED
LED
Street Wraith
Burning Wish
LED
Seething Song
Burning Wish
Street Wraith
Charbelcher

Cast Meditate. Draw cards, cycle wraith whilst cracking the LEDs' for RRRRRRBBB, draw Wish and cast it for Infernal Contract. Cast infernal Contract with RRRR in pool for the next set of cards. Cast Seething Song and Burning Wish for your hatecard of choice. Remove what keeps you from winning, then cycle Street Wraith whilst cracking LED for Charbelcher. This one might take a lot of tweaking in order to fit the gamestate and is more of a general guideline than a step-for-step walkthrough (it assumes you still have all 4 LEDs remaining, for an instance).

Preside removing artifacts or creatures requires you to either have an extra mana in the pool whilst casting Meditate in order to compensate for the mana used by Spree/Lightning - this is why Thunder Clap/Crash is in the sideboard. If you don't have the extra mana don't forget that you can also substitute the last LED for a Lotus Petal and instead draw into it the next turn to fire off the Charbelcher.

In the near future, I'll be testing that list with these changes:
-4 Street Wraith
-4 Land Grant
-1 Taiga
+4 Summoner's Pact
+4 Gitixian Probe
+1 Wild Cantor

I'm hoping that 20 IMS is enough. I really want to play a landless list because it makes Recross the Paths that much better. Doomsday in green makes me pretty excited.

Now, I've been thinking we might run into a play like:

Hand:
Elvish Spirit Guide, Summoner's Pact, Simian Spirit Guide, Rite of Flame, Desperate Ritual, Manamorphose, Recross the Paths

This would be a pass the turn pile, likely 2nd turn win if we weren't running Ideas Unbound:

Turn 1:
SSG, ESG, Pact-->ESG, [RGG], Rite of Flame, Desperate Ritual [RRRGG], Recross the Paths [RR]

Library:
Ideas Unbound
LED
LED
Probe
Meditate
Seething Song
Seething Song
LED
Charbelcher

Manamorphose --> UU, draw Ideas Unbound, play it, draw LED x2, Probe, play LED x2, play Probe, break LED x2 in response for UUURRR, drawing Meditate, play Meditate with RRR floating, draw Seething Song, x2, LED, and Charbelcher, play Seething Song x2 for RRRRRRRRR, play LED, play Charbelcher, and activate for the kill

In short, we might want to include Ideas Unbound for Recross piles.

Infinitium
11-24-2011, 05:53 PM
Actually, you don't need to run Meditate main if you run Ideas Unbound - consider this pile:



Ideas Unbound
-
LED
LED
Probe
-
Cantrip
Cantrip
Cantrip
Cantrip
Burning Wish -> Tendrils of Agony

Or more convoluted:


Ideas Unbound
-
LED
LED
Probe
-
Burning Wish -> Infernal Contract
-
LED
LED
(Blank - You have an extra mana to work with here postside should you need to remove whatever)
Probe
-
Burning Wish -> Tendrils of Agony

Meditate piles do have the luxury of playing an extra Seething Song however, which together with having surplus mana directly after the Infernal Contract means that they can play a second Burning Wish for Reverent Silence (Chain Lightning/Shattering Spree/Duress should you start with a surplus mana in the pool) should they need to.
More importantly Meditate is actually playable by itself once in a blue moon, completely circumvents Ethersworn Canonist and doesn't require you to pay 8+ life when going off. Since either one can be paid for by cracking a LED in response to RtP (or by drawing into LED naturally should you cast RtP with 2 cantrips on hand) it's a tossup which one is better imo.

Oh, and @that list: I'd strongly consider running the full 12 free cantrips even if it meant going down to 10 win conditions (4xBelcher 4xRtP 2xBW). The 3 RtP in that list is a throwback to the fact that it is more of a liability prior to getting the Taiga, but with no lands you cannot really afford the pass turn piles imo (especially as you run Pact).

Vacrix
11-24-2011, 06:39 PM
I'd say that with 4 Gitixian Probe and 4 Manamorphose, you might even be able to play Meditate/Ideas Unbound if its in your opener simply because you have 4 maindeck color fixers and 4 blue cards to imprint on Chrome Mox.

Also, via Summoner's Pact --> Wild Cantor is another method of getting U.

I like the Ideas Unbound piles. UU is easy when you can just put Manamorphose on top. The question now is Meditate vs. Ideas Unbound, or run both?

Well... you can't use Pact in hands when you are passing the turn. Then again, you won't always have Pact. Its doesn't function the same way it does in Pact SI, a draw dependent deck. In Belcher, you are merely judging your opening 7 to see if it can win that turn. Unfortunately you can't use Pacts on the turn you go off or you wind up shuffling away the pile.

I'm not sure that you want 12 cyclers. Street Wraith can't even be used in your Cantrip, Cantrip, Cantrip, etc. pile because it doesn't count as a spell. Also, its much harder to tell whether or not you can keep your opening hand if its full of cyclers. Imagine you have a hand of 5 cyclers, ESG, SSG. Do you keep this? Its hard to tell what will come of it.

Infinitium
11-24-2011, 07:18 PM
It's not as much the double U as the fact that there are very few situations in which you'd want to cast Ideas outside of Recross. At least Meditate is a semi-decent topdeck if your first attempt got countered somehow.

Having a lot of cantrips in a starting hand is somewhat forgiving in this deck since we only really play mana and win conditions, and having access to them is crucial to make RtP work - remember that you can play Paths without any mana floating whatsoever as long as you have at least 2 free cantrips to enable LED for you.

hyggli
11-25-2011, 06:42 AM
I think that this is a good idea for a new version of the deck.
But...
advantages:
You are not playing land grant 2-3-4+taiga, so you will not reveal any kind of land/hand anymore. Your chrome moxes will have new targets in additionals Recross the paths.
You become fully led-dependant. The deck can abuse this card very well

disadvantages of the "cantripfull":
mulliganing issues(swraith ver): if you keep a hand full of cantrips, you cannot know what you're going to draw with those. Manamorphose/Gitaxian are already "problems" the same way.
You become fully pithing-needle-able. Like the old "2lands belcher" a needle is a kind of a pain in the "back".
You don't get maindeck anti-hate: no burning wish.

"disadvantages of the hybrid":
You become fully led-dependant. You might not be able to set up a good pile with the cards you are left in the deck with.
I don't think we can build a list with recross the paths without at least 10-12 cantrips, or you cannot draw into your win till the turn after casting it.
Summoner's pact is a good card. But only if you are going to win via-belcher, of course. I guess you can only play summoner with a list fully imprinted on winning this way.

p.s. a mono-ideas unbound i think it is necessary on these builds, but it is another dead card in the starting hand(kind of) and it is off-color(sometimes i have trouble casting my xantid swarm/tinder wall in classic lists...)

my 2 cents

Infinitium
11-25-2011, 05:49 PM
Anyhow, here's the list that I'll test out for the time being. The exact ratio of Recross to Wish maindecked is of course debatable. We shall see.

1 Taiga
4 Land Grant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elven Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

4 Rite of Flame
4 Tinder Wall
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
4 Street Wraith

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Recross the Paths
2 Burning Wish
1 Ideas Unbound

Sideboard
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Chain Lightning
1 Cabal Therapy
-
1 Meditate
2 Seething Song
1 Infernal Contract
1 Burning Wish

The second half of the SB looks weird, but essentially allows me to board in Meditate>Ideas, BW>Recross and Songs>Rituals and utilize more specialized piles versus whatever hate they brought in.

Vacrix
11-25-2011, 09:57 PM
I really think Recross will be most effective if you are playing with something that allows you to get rid of Land Grant. If not Summoner's Pact then perhaps Mox Opal?


If you still want to play Land Grant, them maybe try playing Summoner's Pact alongside it with Dryad Arbor and Culling the Weak, much like PSI does. That would at the very least allow for the Recross piles to work because you would then have 8 ways to fetch out your land rather than just 4.

I have a feeling that most of the time Recross is in your hand without Land Grant its going to be a psuedo-busines spell rather than a surefire kill. Finding a way to configure a landless list or list with LG + Pact is going to set Recross over the top. Either way though, I look forward to reading about its progress. I'm going to be testing a list myself in an Pact SI variant and we can compare notes.

halfgodz
11-29-2011, 07:47 PM
Can you break Lion's Eye Diamond for mana, and then use the mana to cast a spell before discarding your hand?

i.e break LED to cast Cruel Bargain or Infernal Contract from your hand.

GoldenCid
11-29-2011, 07:55 PM
Can you break Lion's Eye Diamond for mana, and then use the mana to cast a spell before discarding your hand?

i.e break LED to cast Cruel Bargain or Infernal Contract from your hand.

No, you must discard your entire hand to add 3 mana of any color. So, you can cast any spell card that was in your hand before breaking led. Usually you break led in response to empty the warrens or infernal tutor in order to use the mana for the wished / tutored spell.

GC.

GoldenCid
11-29-2011, 07:55 PM
Can you break Lion's Eye Diamond for mana, and then use the mana to cast a spell before discarding your hand?

i.e break LED to cast Cruel Bargain or Infernal Contract from your hand.

No, you must discard your entire hand to add 3 mana of any color. So, you cannot cast any spell card that was in your hand before breaking led. Usually you break led in response to burning wish or infernal tutor in order to use the mana for the wished / tutored spell.

GC.

Fortunae
12-11-2011, 11:35 PM
Anyone else see Christian Vallenti's list that he went 7-0 with at the SCG Invitational? Cruel Ultimatum? Whaaa?

What is the Molten Rain for?

Very cool to see a Belcher list do so well- I'd always been interested in playing it, but never had the nerve to play a "glass cannon" deck when there was something on the line.

OurSerratedDust
12-12-2011, 11:48 AM
Yeah, I can't really figure out why he would play those cards at all. Molten Rain your Tabernacle? Ehh.

michaelq
12-17-2011, 04:53 PM
This post concerns sideboarding to beat Tempo Matchups:

These are pretty much our worst conceivable matchup: RUG/Canadian Threshold and Team America.

RUG/Canadian Threshold has:
Daze
Stifle
Spell Snare
Force of Will
Vendilion Clique (?)

Team America has:
Daze
Stifle
Spell Snare
Force of Will
Hymn to Torach - all relevant spells that really hurt! Some builds even have Pernicious Deed or Maelstrom Pulse to deal with goblin tokens.

Here's the current optimum list (from http://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=83):

1 [R] Taiga
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [CST] Tinder Wall
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [9E] Seething Song
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [] Past in Flames
SB: 1 [] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [M11] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [SC] Goblin War Strike
SB: 3 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm

So here are my sideboard questions:

What do you take out against the Tempo matchup?

- You could remove Manamorphos, which is certainly not essential but does help you build storm, fix mana, and get one card closer to drawing one of your 11 win cards.
- You could remove desperate ritual, since it is likely to draw a Spell Snare (another card likely to do this is Burning wish, but no one is suggesting pulling this out).
- You could remove Land Grant, since that gives the game away in many respects, and is likely to be countered, and thus cannot be relied upon.

What would you bring in?

Most boards commit 7 slots to fighting countermagic - Xantid Swarm and 3 Pyroblasts (and YES, you should use Pyroblasts. That way you can target anything to build storm).

I am not completely sold on the notion you should move 7 cards to your board, as the deck is a finely-tuned machine where every card counts and even drawing a second win condition can prevent you from having enough mana to go off.

Arguments for Xantid Swarm:

- Most players board out removal (for Spell Pierce, Mindbreak Trap, Duress, Extirpate or Surgical Extraction - all of which can wreck us). This means that Xantid Swarm is likely to stick around long enough for us to go off.

- Xantid Swarm is definitely better when your opponent has several counterspells in hand.

- Xantid Swarm can be used to psych out the opponent, or before the critical turn to ensure set-up mana sources (LED, Tinder Wall) hit the table safely.

Arguments for Pyroblast:

- It can pop out of nowhere and surprise your opponent, whereas Xantid Swarm is already on the board and they can adapt around it.

- It is helpful when going off on turn one, where Xantid Swarm is not.

- It can stop counterbalance and standstill (though not relevant in this particular matchup).

- It can counter utility blue creatures (Vendillion Clique, Snapcaster Mage) before they hit the table and grant their effect.

- It makes a better imprint card than Xantid Swarm

What do you guys think? A split? Both? Switch between Xantid and Blast g2 and g3 to psych out your opponent?

One reason I argue clearing room in the sideboard is to make room for the best artifact hate card available: Ingot Chewer. This 5cc card costs one red to play. It takes care of the following otherwise fatal disruption cards:
- Lodestone Golem
- Trinisphere (assuming you have 3 mana)
- Chalice of the Void at 1
- Ratchet Bomb or Engineered Explosives cast in advance of Empty the Warrens
- Ethersworn Cannonist

I'd love to pack 4 of these in my board. So an ideal board for me would be:

SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [] Past in Flames
SB: 1 [] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [M11] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [SC] Goblin War Strike
SB: 4 [5E] Pyroblast OR 4 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 4 [SC] Ingot Chewer

Note that there are 16 cards here - I'd like to drop Goblin War Strike, but it does occasionally come in handy. Infernal Tutor has given me critical storm in the past. Past In Flames isn't the godsend I hoped it'd be, since you can't flash back a resolved Burning Wish - it's only good if you have Empty the Warrens in the graveyard, and even then, it's not that great. With a ton of cantrip effects, it COULD be OK, but I've found myself wishing I'd just wished for Empty the Warrens in those cases.

Finally, has anyone here systematically analyzed the benefit of drawing first rather than playing first? The extra card, along with knowledge of what your opponent is playing may be worth it. Then again, if they played an island and now have access to Spell Snare and Stifle, or if they Thoughtseized you, you may have just lost. I'm interested in seeing some numbers if anyone has them.

Thank you for reading such a long post, and I look forward to reading your responses on these three topics I've brought up: What to sideboard out, whether to use Xantid Swarm or Pyroblast or both, and whether it's better to play or draw. Thanks!

leegoo
12-18-2011, 02:29 AM
in reply to some of the above...

-On Xantid Swarm-

He's not some super secret tech. Most deck's aren't going to side out all their removal, and RUG certainly isn't going to side out bolt, so expecting him to do the lion's share of the work is pretty unrealistic.

On the other hand, your other options are things like Autumn's Veil, which is not terrible, but not overly exciting either. The ability to *chant* once (and in response to a counter no less) is alright though, since you can either bait with it or use it more reactively.

-On Ingot Chewer-

It depends on your local meta I suppose. Personally I wouldn't take up slots on multiple artifact hate cards. Of the things listed Canonist in Maverick is probably the most likely/common, and Chewer still doesn't answer canonist/mom.

Your Concerns vs. the Tempo matchups are real ones, but sadly there aren't a ton of good answers forthcoming. I'm close to suggesting your line to victory follows having an empty the warrens in hand when you start casting rituals and hoping your opponent doesn't counter you getting to 4mana. After board, you want the same thing, except preferably with a piece of disruption and the mana to do both... and for them not to have an answer to gobbo's. Kind of sounds like a Hail Mary, but that's somewhat what this deck is.

If Tempo is rampant and you are fairly set on this kind of strategy, you might try some of the Spanish Inquisition variants (QSI and SITES particularly) as they have a higher density of "threat" cards, and by the nature of draw4's have a better chance of recovery from a counterspell.

Just thoughts of course.

Water_Wizard
12-18-2011, 04:06 AM
Here's the current optimum list (from http://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=83):

1 [R] Taiga
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [CST] Tinder Wall
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [9E] Seething Song
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [] Past in Flames
SB: 1 [] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [M11] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [SC] Goblin War Strike
SB: 3 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm



Two questions:
Why not Pyretic Ritual over Manamorphose? I realize Manamorphose helps you build storm, but it doesn't help you build mana (I guess it could with that extra card).

Also, why not run one Shattering Spree in your board? It kills Chalice on 1 (just cast and replicate) and it will destroy multiple targets.

Beatusnox
12-18-2011, 04:17 AM
Two questions:
Why not Pyretic Ritual over Manamorphose? I realize Manamorphose helps you build storm, but it doesn't help you build mana (I guess it could with that extra card).

Also, why not run one Shattering Spree in your board? It kills Chalice on 1 (just cast and replicate) and it will destroy multiple targets.

If you go for infernal tutor off the sideboard or even run a tendrils or diminishing returns play the ability to filter outside of Petal and Diamond is extremely useful

Water_Wizard
12-18-2011, 03:54 PM
If you go for infernal tutor off the sideboard or even run a tendrils or diminishing returns play the ability to filter outside of Petal and Diamond is extremely useful

If I'm pulling Tendrils out of the board, I'm planning to crack an LED in response to Burning Wish. Good call on Infernal though - Manamorphose makes sense for infernal.

The reason I like 4 Pyretic/Desperate (8 total) is because it sets you up a lot better for quicker combo - first turn Pyretic/Desperate leads into Seething Song or a combination of the two gives us the magic 4 mana for Belcher/Warrens. Manamorphose to Desperate leaves us with 3 mana and an extra card.

michaelq
12-18-2011, 09:43 PM
@Water Wizard

I've played a lot with both Pyretic Ritual and Manamorphos. I feel like a the extra ritual effects DO increase the chance of a critical turn one, but having Manamorphos increases the chances of drawing into critical disruption/win conditions, and the assistance with the storm count is often relevant. This would seem to be backed up by the fact that all the recent top 8 belcher builds ran 4 Manamorphos. It is a trickier card to play, and you really can't fall into the trap of assuming that Manamorphos will draw you into something relevant, but once you get past that, it's definitely a better card than Pyretic Ritual imho.

@Leegoo

SI was my original combo deck, and I happen to still have 4 Cruel Bargains around.

This may sound silly, but has a black/red belcher build already been tried? It would seem to have better disruption and better rituals.

Mana: 34
4 [R] Badlands
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [] Dark Ritual
4 [] Cabal Ritual
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame

Tech: 19
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [] Duress
3 [] Infernal Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish

Win: 7
1 [] Past in Flames
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
1 [] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher

SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [] Past in Flames
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [M11] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [SC] Goblin War Strike
SB: 4 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [] Deathmark
4 more cards

Other than ESG, Land Grant and Tinder Wall, is there really any reason to prefer Green to Black? The main reason I say this is I strongly dislike relying on Land Grant. Upping the manabase to 4 mountains (Badlands) may be a bit of a stretch, but it would help get the initial mana out there. I realize this is going in the direction of a pure Past in Flames build, but I am loath to abandon Goblin Charbelcher...

Thoughts?

Final Fortune
12-18-2011, 10:29 PM
Cantrips are no where near as good as ritual effects, the deck lives and dies by its mulligans and having 8 "surprises" in the deck just creates needless variance. Manamorphose is especially bad because you have to commit a non-trivial amount of resources just to cycle it and potentially GG yourself with 2 man floating.

leegoo
12-18-2011, 11:03 PM
Thoughts?

First, I pretty heavily agree w/ final fortune on the cantrips... imperfect info leads to a lot of hands that look tempting to keep but don't actually do anything. Probe doesn't bother me as much since the "peak" effect can be alright at telling you what you need to attempt to play around / how much time you have.

On the list you posted, It looks like you are basically playing (SI)TES, but hamstringing yourself by not playing culling the weak and more Empty the Warrens, which is probably better now than it has been in a long time.

4 land (even if they are mountains) is certainly too many to run Belcher with, especially with no way to search them up. Most of the times I activate belcher, I don't have the resources to do it again the next turn... which is a bad situation to be in.

If you want to stick with Belcher instead of SI though, this is a little brew I've been playing around with. It still needs some tuning for sure, but it's an ok place to start. (And as you bend the mana pretty much to the limits you are required to play manamorphose and some # of Cantor's.)

2 Land Belcher

4 ESG
4 SSG
4 Tinder Wall
2 Wild Cantor

4 Land Grant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Empty the Warrens
3 Spoils of the Vault
1 Seething Song

4 Chrome Mox
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
4 Goblin Charbelcher

1 Taiga
1 Bayou

michaelq
12-19-2011, 05:52 PM
If you want to stick with Belcher instead of SI though, this is a little brew I've been playing around with. It still needs some tuning for sure, but it's an ok place to start. (And as you bend the mana pretty much to the limits you are required to play manamorphose and some # of Cantor's.)

2 Land Belcher

4 ESG
4 SSG
4 Tinder Wall
2 Wild Cantor

4 Land Grant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Empty the Warrens
3 Spoils of the Vault
1 Seething Song

4 Chrome Mox
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
4 Goblin Charbelcher

1 Taiga
1 Bayou

Interesting build! I like that black potentially gives you access to Duress/Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilik, which are better imho than blast effects and Xantid Swarm. One question though before I try this on Cockatrice - don't you kill yourself a lot with Spoils of the Vault? Is it better in this build than Burning Wish would be?

Koby
12-19-2011, 06:43 PM
2 Land Belcher

4 ESG
4 SSG
4 Tinder Wall
2 Wild Cantor

4 Land Grant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Empty the Warrens
3 Spoils of the Vault
2 Seething Song
4 Infernal Tutor

4 Chrome Mox
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
4 Goblin Charbelcher

1 Taiga
1 Bayou

Fixed.

leegoo
12-19-2011, 08:16 PM
the only cards I ever get (well, almost) with Spoils is generally a win con. It's normally a non-issue, but yes, you can 20 yourself with some poor luck. I don't generally spoils for a card that I have less than 4 of left in the deck.

I really didn't like Infernal tutor in it's place... a few more hoops than I wanted to jump. Still, like I said, it's just a starting point, I could be wrong.

Big Sexy
01-02-2012, 09:06 PM
I'm thinking of running Street Wraith instead of manamorphose. I find myself wanting to go off turn 1 and not being able to use manamorphose. At this point I cheat and look at the next card, I'm fishing, and it's almost always helpful. I'm thinking the free draw may be more useful... With Probe it'd be 8 free draws, basically making it a 52 card deck. Thoughts?

leegoo
01-03-2012, 09:31 AM
I'm thinking of running Street Wraith instead of manamorphose. I find myself wanting to go off turn 1 and not being able to use manamorphose. At this point I cheat and look at the next card, I'm fishing, and it's almost always helpful. I'm thinking the free draw may be more useful... With Probe it'd be 8 free draws, basically making it a 52 card deck. Thoughts?


You run into the problem playing "x" free cycler's always runs into. This, for example

Hand (on the play)
Land Grant
Tinder Wall
Rite of Flame
Rite of Flame
LED
Street Wraith
Gitaxian Probe

Seems like a tough hand to mulligan as it's an action spell away from everything you want. But what if Street wraith and Gitaxian probe were instead Lotus Petal and Tinder Wall? Would you keep it then? If you cycle into nothing can you afford to draw blanks for a couple of turns? Or do you mulligan in hopes of a better 6? It's a gamble either way.

Imperfect information often leads to the wrong choice. Whether it's wrong for you depends on your aggressiveness / willing to play the odds.

hazard
01-19-2012, 11:49 AM
I have found this deck to be very, very consistent without Burning Wish and without Land Grants/Tiaga now that we have Gitaxian Probe and no longer have to deal with Mental Misstep. This list has very little trouble Belching or Empty'ing (for at least 10) on turn one or two:

Win/Draw (20)
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Street Wraith
4x Manamorphose
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Empty the Warrens

Free/Artifact Mana (20)
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

Rituals/Mana Ramp (20)
4x Rite of Flame
4x Tinder Wall
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Seething Song

You run into some of the same problems you have had in the past: if your Gitaxian Probe or even worse, Manamorphose are countered, you are in a bind. You need to be sound in your mulligans: you've got eight maindeck win conditions and 12 maindeck draw cards.

Anyone else find that no-land, no-wish Belcher has been working well?

OurSerratedDust
01-19-2012, 12:04 PM
I have found this deck to be very, very consistent without Burning Wish and without Land Grants/Tiaga now that we have Gitaxian Probe and no longer have to deal with Mental Misstep. This list has very little trouble Belching or Empty'ing (for at least 10) on turn one or two:

Win/Draw (20)
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Street Wraith
4x Manamorphose
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Empty the Warrens

Free/Artifact Mana (20)
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

Rituals/Mana Ramp (20)
4x Rite of Flame
4x Tinder Wall
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Seething Song

You run into some of the same problems you have had in the past: if your Gitaxian Probe or even worse, Manamorphose are countered, you are in a bind. You need to be sound in your mulligans: you've got eight maindeck win conditions and 12 maindeck draw cards.

Anyone else find that no-land, no-wish Belcher has been working well?

What is the advantage of cutting Land Grant/Taiga? Land Grant is like almost a Lotus Petal, and is certainly better than any Simian Spirit Guides. Crapping out on Belcher is rare enough to keep the Taiga, if you ask me.

hazard
01-19-2012, 12:21 PM
What is the advantage of cutting Land Grant/Taiga? Land Grant is like almost a Lotus Petal, and is certainly better than any Simian Spirit Guides. Crapping out on Belcher is rare enough to keep the Taiga, if you ask me.

The advantage of having no land verses one land is very small mathematically. And having that permanent mana source (unless it gets Wasted) sure is nice. I think there is definitely an advantage gained by not unzipping your fly and laying your nuts on the table when you cast Land Grant. Many folks who are playing blue decks are unsure of when and what to counter when playing against Belcher. Land Grant gives them all of the information they need.

Conversely, if you were to look at the Probes as a direct replacement for the Land Grants, they achieve the opposite: you get to see if you have any countermagic to play through. Another Probe benefit: often when playing Belcher, you never get to see what the other guy is playing giving no information on how to sideboard. Probe does help that.

Togores
01-19-2012, 01:05 PM
i got second last monday with belcher at my locals.

my side was
4 piroblast
4 autums veil
1 tendrills
1 diminishing return
1 empty the warrens
1 infernal tutor
1 hull breach
1 shatering spree
1 past in flames

my main deck is pretty standard

1 [R] Taiga
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [CST] Tinder Wall
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [SHM] Pyretic Ritual
4 [9E] Seething Song
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [CS] Rite of Flame

I dont like manamrpfosis, because sometimes u need one mana more to go of and u have to go off and u use mana on manamorfosis and then u draw busines and lose.

Then usualy for brining in my 8 sb cards i side out: 4 sething song and 4 pyretic ritual

a good control player will counter ur song and u will lose. so i prefer to combo sure.

Dark Ritual
01-19-2012, 05:16 PM
Usually with manamorphose you draw mana with it, as business spells in this deck that are prohibitive in cost are wish and charbelcher. If you draw empty with morphose, and can't get to 4 mana to cast it, you kept a really bad hand and are asking to be punished for it.

Also, why do I see past in flames in belcher wishboards now? The only case where I can see PiF being good is if you go wish, crack LED for RRR, discarding empty the warrens and/or an extra burning wish, flashback all these rituals, then go EtW/burning wish for maybe tendrils for a very large number since wish exiles itself upon resolution. Just seems like a wasted sideboard slot that would be better served as something else.

On landless belcher. The effect of not playing land is that you have less IMS's so in theory you'll fizzle more before you even begin the spell chain if your probe's/wraith's hit nothing to start the chain off with chrome/petal/esg/ssg because you only have 16 IMS's then. And you're also really reliant on hitting business too since you lack wish. And postboard what exactly do you plan to do against any sort of hate? Hope to cast hull breach and co. off of IMS's? That seems pretty weak. Then again belcher has always been weak to hate.

Togores
01-19-2012, 06:21 PM
usualy i dont keep with belcher a hand with no busines spell didnt mater if i have draw spells or not. if u dont mullingan for ur winn options u usualy lose. u can keep hand that needs mana but not a hand that needs to draw into bw belcher or etw.

Vacrix
01-19-2012, 06:56 PM
@Togores

How has Autumn's Veil been working out for you? Seems like the perfect answer to Flusterstorm as you can play it as a response to Flusterstorm.

@hazard

No-Wish, No-land Belcher seems weak. If you have some data on the deck, thats the best way to get people to play your list to get some confirmation on how the deck plays. I would say the best option would be to play with Burning Wish rather than Empty the Warrens or else you can't really able to utilize LED except with Belcher. At least a Burning Wish + LED nets you 1 mana and then you can pull EtW out of the board.

You might want to experiment with Recross the Paths if you are going to play a No-Land Belcher list. Once it resolves, in a no-land build, it allows you to stack the deck, leaving you with either cantrip x8, LED, BW --> ToA option, or LED + cantrip --> Meditate into LED, LED, LED, cantrip --> Belcher. The piles are relatively simple so the learning curve on Recross lists are actually not much higher than normal Belcher. Unlike, Doomsday you won't have to memorize and understand how to adapt to the situation but rather just how to reach 10 storm by stringing multiple cantrips together, or a simple Meditate or even Ideas Unbound pile.

Normally you would start this chain with a cantrip that way you can draw the top card, but you can also play pass the turn piles that way you can, say, draw a cantrip off the top that way you can break a LED into Meditate to draw 4 cards off the top to easily finish. You might have to wait a total of 2 turns to draw a LED and a cantrip total to start, but thats not asking for very much when your deck is completely stacked and the deck can get to 2G with almost every hand.

Further, its a sorcery so you can play one in the board for a grand total of...

Business:
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Recross the Paths

Togores
01-19-2012, 07:02 PM
@Togores

How has Autumn's Veil been working out for you? Seems like the perfect answer to Flusterstorm as you can play it as a response to Flusterstorm.

@hazard

No-Wish, No-land Belcher seems weak. If you have some data on the deck, thats the best way to get people to play your list to get some confirmation on how the deck plays. I would say the best option would be to play with Burning Wish rather than Empty the Warrens or else you can't really able to utilize LED except with Belcher. At least a Burning Wish + LED nets you 1 mana and then you can pull EtW out of the board.

You might want to experiment with Recross the Paths if you are going to play a No-Land Belcher list. Once it resolves, in a no-land build, it allows you to stack the deck, leaving you with either cantrip x8, LED, BW --> ToA option, or LED + cantrip --> Meditate into LED, LED, LED, cantrip --> Belcher. The piles are relatively simple so the learning curve on Recross lists are actually not much higher than normal Belcher. Unlike, Doomsday you won't have to memorize and understand how to adapt to the situation but rather just how to reach 10 storm by stringing multiple cantrips together, or a simple Meditate or even Ideas Unbound pile.

Normally you would start this chain with a cantrip that way you can draw the top card, but you can also play pass the turn piles that way you can, say, draw a cantrip off the top that way you can break a LED into Meditate to draw 4 cards off the top to easily finish. You might have to wait a total of 2 turns to draw a LED and a cantrip total to start, but thats not asking for very much when your deck is completely stacked and the deck can get to 2G with almost every hand.

Further, its a sorcery so you can play one in the board for a grand total of...

Business:
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Recross the Paths

The thing with autums veil is that u can play it and if it dont resolve u can hold on with ur hand, thats the diferencia with piroblast, u go of then reb the counter of ur oponent and if he has one more counter u lose ur hand. with veil u can play it and if it dosnt reslve u can easy think of anew plan. the only problem is that i dosnt stop mindebreak but usualy agaisnt decks paking mindebreak the 4 piroblast are enought and this deck that play mindbreak usualy are not control decks.

And with the recross plan, i think is to slow, its nice to stack ur deck but he are speaking of a turn 3 winn at soon in a normal situation.
ur pile should always be led gitaxian meditate led led led gitaxian mediatate and busines or more draw spells i think. and that makes ur deck very diferent and slower. for plaing this i usualy at my events play doomsday, which requires more skill and so but u usualuy dont make an all in and have better mana and manipulation.

hazard
01-20-2012, 11:10 AM
@hazard

No-Wish, No-land Belcher seems weak. If you have some data on the deck, thats the best way to get people to play your list to get some confirmation on how the deck plays. I would say the best option would be to play with Burning Wish rather than Empty the Warrens or else you can't really able to utilize LED except with Belcher. At least a Burning Wish + LED nets you 1 mana and then you can pull EtW out of the board.

You might want to experiment with Recross the Paths if you are going to play a No-Land Belcher list. Once it resolves, in a no-land build, it allows you to stack the deck, leaving you with either cantrip x8, LED, BW --> ToA option, or LED + cantrip --> Meditate into LED, LED, LED, cantrip --> Belcher. The piles are relatively simple so the learning curve on Recross lists are actually not much higher than normal Belcher. Unlike, Doomsday you won't have to memorize and understand how to adapt to the situation but rather just how to reach 10 storm by stringing multiple cantrips together, or a simple Meditate or even Ideas Unbound pile.

Normally you would start this chain with a cantrip that way you can draw the top card, but you can also play pass the turn piles that way you can, say, draw a cantrip off the top that way you can break a LED into Meditate to draw 4 cards off the top to easily finish. You might have to wait a total of 2 turns to draw a LED and a cantrip total to start, but thats not asking for very much when your deck is completely stacked and the deck can get to 2G with almost every hand.

Further, its a sorcery so you can play one in the board for a grand total of...

Business:
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Recross the Paths

I do not have have any current data to support the performance of this deck. It is, however, only five cards away from the deck I piloted here:

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=659

The only differences being:

-1 Taiga
-4 Land Grant

+4 Gitaxian Probe
+1 Street Wraith

I do realize the metagame is not what it was in mid-2010, but there are similarities.

I have never liked Wish in Belcher because it does nothing alone. It is not a win condition. It only becomes good if you have it with LED. If you're using Wish to solve problems on the board, you are probably already losing. I prefer one card combos to two card combos, but it's definitely open to personal choice. The Wish decks do well also, as evidenced by the fella placing 15th last weekend in LA:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=43205

As far as anyone playing the deck, I'm not even sure if I would again. Yes, the deck's viable. Yes, the deck wins. But no, the deck does not interact much and you're usually just playing with yourself.

As Togores stated, "if u dont mullingan for ur winn options u usualy lose. u can keep hand that needs mana but not a hand that needs to draw into bw belcher or etw. " With eight win conditions maindeck and 12 draw, you've got to smart about your mulligans.

I played with Recross the Paths a bit also and would have to agree with Togores - it is a bit slow, although there may be a different 'path' to take with that card in a different deck shell.

As far as a sideboard for Belcher...if you're not playing Burning Wish, it honestly does not matter much. Here's what I played in the past:

4 Xantid Swarm
4 Price of Progress
4 Guttural Response
3 Deus of Calamity

Your main concerns are obviously the blue decks. Manamorphose becomes weaker. You could pull four of those for four Gutterballs and/or four Gitaxian Probes for four Xantid Swarm. The Deus plan has worked because people often remove their creature removal. Price of Progress can also be pretty deadly post board as no one sees it coming.

This deck wants to win ASAP and the pilot should always keep that in mind. (The one obvious exception is playing around Mindbreak Trap.)

Infinitium
01-20-2012, 12:04 PM
In fairness BW is a win condition with EtW side (which is also the card you want to wish for close to 100% of the time). Also, whilst Recross might have some other issues (counterability etc) it's never slower and oftentimes faster than EtW.

Dark Ritual
01-20-2012, 12:41 PM
Yeah with recross the paths you need a total of 6 mana before you cast it but then you stack the deck like vacrix said with 8 manamorphose/probe's, an LED, then wish for tendrils. This requires that you often have to pass the turn though unless you have 2 cantrips in hand or that you have wish/LED in hand. Sure if you pass the turn you generally win on turn 3 unless you have a cantrip/LED in hand then it's possible to win turn 2 but this deck rarely wins turn 1-2 anyways, often this deck goes make lots of goblins, swing on turn 2 for not lethal, and turn 3 swing for the win. The recross plan is better in this respect in that it's not cold to pernicious deed, maelstrom pulse, echoing truth, engineered explosives, elephant grass, the tabernacle at pendrell vale but it is weaker to hand disruption such as hymn to tourach and thoughtseize.

I've always like wish in belcher just as EtW 4-7. And it can randomly get chain lightning or something to answer problems sometimes but often it's just going for EtW. And don't tell me it's hard to go wish into EtW on the same turn, it's not that hard it just requires 6 mana total. And last I heard the namesake card of this deck belcher costs 7 mana total to win then and there.

I did some goldfishing with the landless list and I don't see how it's better than traditional belcher. If you don't have the win con in hand it doesn't matter if you have 4 cantrips you still won't find it at least I didn't find it.

Recross the paths is super interesting to me I've just never attempted to make a belcher list built around it as an additional win con. The neat thing is that it can be wished for though.

Namida
01-20-2012, 12:44 PM
In fairness BW is a win condition with EtW side (which is also the card you want to wish for close to 100% of the time).

He's saying that Burning Wish isn't a win condition because it's a two card combo, given that you need Lion's Eye Diamond to make it actually win the game--therefore, Burning Wish + Lion's Eye Diamond is a win condition, while Burning Wish alone is not.

However, I disagree with this statement, because I don't agree with the concept that you need Lion's Eye Diamond to turn it on. Either way, when you play this deck *every* win is actually a three+ card combo. It's going to take damn near your opening hand every time you go off anyway, so I'd be perfectly fine with playing Burning Wish, even though it's usually going to be six mana to make it do what you want it to. At the least, I'd say I'm happier with them than playing cards like Street Wraith and Gitaxian Probe, which make the deck even more of a crapshoot than it already is by making your mulligans (arguably the most difficult decision you usually make when playing this deck) even harder to gauge.

hazard
01-21-2012, 01:08 AM
He's saying that Burning Wish isn't a win condition because it's a two card combo, given that you need Lion's Eye Diamond to make it actually win the game--therefore, Burning Wish + Lion's Eye Diamond is a win condition, while Burning Wish alone is not.

However, I disagree with this statement, because I don't agree with the concept that you need Lion's Eye Diamond to turn it on. Either way, when you play this deck *every* win is actually a three+ card combo. It's going to take damn near your opening hand every time you go off anyway, so I'd be perfectly fine with playing Burning Wish, even though it's usually going to be six mana to make it do what you want it to. At the least, I'd say I'm happier with them than playing cards like Street Wraith and Gitaxian Probe, which make the deck even more of a crapshoot than it already is by making your mulligans (arguably the most difficult decision you usually make when playing this deck) even harder to gauge.

You are correct on how I am defining the term 'win condition'. By my definition, it is a card that can win the game. Technically, the eight Spirit Guides are win conditions (secondary) also because they can beat down for the win, but we all know that ain't gonna happen. The best (primary) in the deck is its namesake, Goblin Charbelcher. That card can win the game when it is activated. It doesn't win when cast. I'd say the deck can very rarely cast and activate Belcher. I usually don't try to, preferring to use my resources in the most efficient manner to get it out and have the best odds of having the activation mana the next turn.

The second best win condition is Empty the Warrens which usually wins the game two turns later. Burning Wish...cannot win the game. Yes, it can fetch cards that can win the game, such as a fourth Empty in the board, but it does nothing by itself. - - - That's probably way more of a definition of 'win condition' than could ever be needed.

Burning Wish - yes, it can be used without LED on the table, although with much more difficulty. LED without Burning Wish really only has two uses: activating Belcher and building storm for Empty.

You're exactly right about the crap shoot. Folks just have two options for their crapshoot:

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith

or

4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Burning Wish

So you've got:

(8) maindeck win and (12) maindeck draw or
(7) maindeck win and (8) maindeck draw and (4) maindeck conditional wish

Besides that, I have to say that not having to reveal your entire plan right at the start is a pretty huge benefit of not running Land Grant.

lunabass
02-17-2012, 07:29 AM
so why doesnt pact of negation see any play in belcher instead of pyro blast or autumns veil/xantid swarm

also xantid swarm seems like a weird choice over autumns veil with al the swords to plowshears/lightningbolt/dismembers and snapcasters flying around nowadays, although after some testing i do understand the point of playing it t1 so you can keep al the mana you need for the next turn.

i'm probably gonna play the standard belcher list but with 2 gitaxian probes mainboard and 2 pacts main board and my sb will look kinda like this:

2 autumns veil
2 pyroblast
1 hull breach
1 past in flames
1 goblin war strike
2 pact of negation
1 tendrils of agony
1 infernal tutor
1 empty the warrens
1 reverent silence
2 gitaxian probe (if i'd be up against something fowless, i'd probably side this in and the 2 md pacts out)

heck, 4 maindeck pacts might even be a good idea, since were so scared of fow, plus you can pitch it to chrome mox for extra mana if really needed, and it could even be use to reduce the fear of pyroclasm when they play it on the last possible moment or if we have an active LED on the field and something for extra mana wich isnt a weird scenario at all

just thinking out loud here though

Togores
02-17-2012, 08:45 AM
the problem with the pact is that u can only use it then ur going to winn with belcher not with empty the warrens and usualy u winn near double the time with EtW than belcher and if they counter ur belcher and then let resolve ur pact and recounter ur blecher u lose.

i dont think is a good option plaing 4 bw 3 EtW and 4 belecher

lunabass
02-19-2012, 06:23 PM
the problem with the pact is that u can only use it then ur going to winn with belcher not with empty the warrens and usualy u winn near double the time with EtW than belcher and if they counter ur belcher and then let resolve ur pact and recounter ur blecher u lose.

i dont think is a good option plaing 4 bw 3 EtW and 4 belecher

hmmm makes sense, i'll still be testing it though but yeah,

and the xantid swarm matter? in my meta at least, he's far too fragile

Pulp_Fiction
02-25-2012, 12:54 AM
I have played literally every version of this deck: Spoils Belcher, 1 land, 2 land w Bayou ... and slowly I found out it doesn't matter. Play the list that best suits your metagame. Belcher is and forever will be an all-in combo deck. Thats just how it is, I started playing it when Goblins became super popular ... that was probably 3-5 years ago and I dominated. Currently, I don't even play it, but, since thor said he was playing Helldozer.dec next week I am going to be playing this and hopefully my other friend will also.

Belcher will always be viable against an aggro-based metagame, simply because the deck is better. You dont care what your opponent does, as long as he doesn't have Force or Trap ... ur just gonna win. Its that good. But regarding the current conversation, I actually prefer playing: 4x Belcher, 4x EtW and 4x Serum Powder. I used to love Burning Wish in the deck and about 10 weeks ago I would not play a deck in legacy without it ... but times change.

I am not going to make a case for Serum Powder because to most it isn't relevant, same with Recross the Paths. You play what works. That terrible list from gencon (I think) with 0 BW looks awful at first glance ... but it is actually really damn good. For a short while I ran Belcher with Blood Moon main and it was ridiculously good ... I even won a game after I hardcasted a Spirit Guide and got there. Point is, play what works .... to me, BW is not nearly as good as it used to be, same with this deck. Belcher is and forever will be that all-in deck ... but go big or go home. Personally I don't like BW in the deck anymore, but thats me. Play what wins.

xikitins
02-26-2012, 12:16 PM
As far as a sideboard for Belcher...if you're not playing Burning Wish, it honestly does not matter much. Here's what I played in the past:

4 Xantid Swarm
4 Price of Progress
4 Guttural Response
3 Deus of Calamity

Your main concerns are obviously the blue decks. Manamorphose becomes weaker. You could pull four of those for four Gutterballs and/or four Gitaxian Probes for four Xantid Swarm. The Deus plan has worked because people often remove their creature removal. Price of Progress can also be pretty deadly post board as no one sees it coming.

This deck wants to win ASAP and the pilot should always keep that in mind. (The one obvious exception is playing around Mindbreak Trap.)

I think that sideboard plan doesn't work. You need some answer to creatures like canonist, gaddock or the new Thalia. That are heavily played in GW Zenith.
Some kind of bolt is needed.

OurSerratedDust
02-26-2012, 03:05 PM
I think that sideboard plan doesn't work. You need some answer to creatures like canonist, gaddock or the new Thalia. That are heavily played in GW Zenith.
Some kind of bolt is needed.

I hear Cave-In is a pretty good wish target.

On another note, do you guys find yourselves BW into Past in Flames very often? It seems a pretty weak, but I haven't given it any testing.

bruizar
02-26-2012, 04:07 PM
I hear Cave-In is a pretty good wish target.

On another note, do you guys find yourselves BW into Past in Flames very often? It seems a pretty weak, but I haven't given it any testing.

Cave-in does pretty much nothing against Teeg though.

SolPlyr
02-26-2012, 10:20 PM
I apologize if this (or something similar) has been asked already.

I'm interested in this deck, and notice that someone got a T16 today with it at SCG Memphis. However, I have a question. My understanding of Goblin Charbelcher is that when you activate it, you flip cards from your library until you reveal a land card, at which point it does damage to your opponent equal to 1 per card flipped (2x if a mountain is flipped). The player that played this deck was able to pull a Turn 1 win. However, he played the only land he had in the deck, and then flipped over the remainder of his library.

I guess I'm at a loss as to how he would win the game considering he hasn't met the condition to stop revealing cards.

thefringthing
02-27-2012, 12:26 AM
When you resolve Goblin Charbelcher's ability (or any other spell or ability), you do as much as can. Since there are no lands left in the deck, you reveal cards until you can't anymore. Then you continue on to the next part of the ability, and deal your opponent a bunch of damage. Finally, you order the revealed cards (your entire library) any way you like. (That last step will only matter if your opponent is still alive for some reason, of course.)

Also, try using a little critical thinking. Would this deck play one land and four Land Grant if it couldn't win via Goblin Charbelcher after having resolved a Land Grant?

Pulp_Fiction
03-01-2012, 03:00 AM
Just for fun I went to my local tournament tonight and took Belcher ... I ended up going 4-0-1 and made top 8 out of 26ish people. Here is what I played followed by matchups:

4x Belcher
4x EtW
4x Serum Powder
4x Land Grant
4x Chrome Mox
4x LED
4x Petal
4x Tinder Wall
4x ESG
4x SSG
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Seething Song
4x Rite of Flame
3x Manamorphose
1x Taiga

SB
3x Ancient Gridge
4x Leyline of Punishment
4x Xantid Swarm
4x Carpet of Flowers

Round 1 - Mono-R Burn (2-0)
g1: Empty for 12 turn 1.
g2: Drop Belcher turn 1, activate turn 2.

Round 2 - Merfolk (2-1)
g1: Empty for 10 turn 1.
g2: Carpet would have won me the game had he not held his Islands back due to double vial.
g3: Turn 1 Empty for 10.

Round 3 - Goblins (2-1)
g1: I mull to 6 and win on turn 4 with Belcher.
g2: I mull to 5 and keep a terrible hand. I actually could have won on turn 4-5 had he not played Null Rod.
g3: Mull to 6 and get Mindbreak Trapped turn 2. He stalls on lands and I start laying out artifacts, on turn 5-6 I drop Belcher with LED in play.

Round 4 - BUG Control (2-0)
g1: Empty for 10 turn 1.
g2: Turn 1 Swarm, turn 4 Belcher.

Round 5 - ID

Round 6 - RUw Delver - Thor - (1-2) - We agree to split regardless before we play.
g1: Empty for 12 turn 1 gets there.
g2: Mull into oblivion.
g3: Mull to 6 and EtW for 8 on turn 1 .. doesn't get there.

Overall the deck is still pretty solid. Occassionally you just into oblivion but ... I can't tell you how many mulligans I took the whole tournament (including Serum Powder). It had to be at least 15. Powder really adds a certain amount of control to the deck, in that once you know what you are facing, you can just try to find the best win-con. The SB was excellent, not sure about Grudge over SS; I was just testing it out. The deck may still be viable, especially in a heavy aggro meta. The pure speed is just ridiculous. I was Forced, Pierced, Inquisitioned (which is funny because it doesn't hit wincons), Spell Snared, and everything else you can think of. Belcher is still pretty good, given, sometimes the deck loses to itself, but the speed is just unmatched.

GoldenCid
03-01-2012, 03:46 PM
What can you say about your experience with serum powder?

OurSerratedDust
03-01-2012, 05:28 PM
Serum Power is extremely strong in Belcher. Many people dismiss it, but your 1st turn win % goes up drastically when you play it. I run 4 in my board, so as to not give away what deck I am playing game 1. If I Serum Powder mull g1, any blue player would be stupid not to mulligan to Force of Will.

GoldenCid
03-01-2012, 06:06 PM
Serum Power is extremely strong in Belcher. Many people dismiss it, but your 1st turn win % goes up drastically when you play it. I run 4 in my board, so as to not give away what deck I am playing game 1. If I Serum Powder mull g1, any blue player would be stupid not to mulligan to Force of Will.

Indeed?? I feel a bit "vulnerable" wihtout burning wish in the board but maybe you're right with powder we are closer to a SInq, speaking about the t1 %.

@Pulp: Could mox be a cantrip in your list?? You have 12 ritual which is good, but just 3 cantrips (without the "cantrip" effect of powder). Do you really need that mana generation level??

Shawon
03-01-2012, 07:09 PM
Serum Power is extremely strong in Belcher. Many people dismiss it, but your 1st turn win % goes up drastically when you play it. I run 4 in my board, so as to not give away what deck I am playing game 1. If I Serum Powder mull g1, any blue player would be stupid not to mulligan to Force of Will.

That's a good idea, keeping it in the sb. What do you take out for it g2 and g3?

OurSerratedDust
03-01-2012, 11:24 PM
My list has 4 Street Wraith instead of Manamorphose, so I usually board them out for games 2 and 3. Manamorphose is the worst card in traditional 2c Belcher lists, so those are the first to go.

In some of the more recent lists that have been popping up on SCG events, you would board out 2 Chrome Mox and 2 Pyretic Ritual.

Vacrix
03-02-2012, 01:13 AM
Boarding out IMS's in Belcher is wrong, especially when the resource stays around to keep producing mana.

Pulp_Fiction
03-02-2012, 03:20 AM
@GoldenCid: I REALLY like Serum Powder. I used to play BW in Belcher a while ago but ... I have just come to dislike it. The card is to reliant on LED to go off and it gets Spell Snared, the funny thing is, a lot of people try and save Snare for BW ... which makes Powder and ur rituals even better. With Powder, you don't care, you just mulligan till you get a wincon. The turn 1 combos with SP are just ridiculous.

I would never cut Chrome Moxes, ever. You need as many IMS as possible in a deck like this, especially ones that hang around and activate Belcher or are for later use if a second combo is necessary.

@Dust: Why would you ever run Street Wraith over Probe? Also, Belcher is so balls to the wall .. who cares if they know what you are playing. The deck is already just go big or go home, so why not embrace that and make it as fast as possible? I really feel like BW adds a lot of inconsistency to a deck that is already not the strongest, but easily the fastest (SI aside). Although, in terms of turn 1 combo (not killing the opponent) I would say Belcher is every bit as if not faster than SI and a lot better against blue (due to EtW).

OurSerratedDust
03-02-2012, 08:36 AM
@Dust: Why would you ever run Street Wraith over Probe? Also, Belcher is so balls to the wall .. who cares if they know what you are playing. The deck is already just go big or go home, so why not embrace that and make it as fast as possible? I really feel like BW adds a lot of inconsistency to a deck that is already not the strongest, but easily the fastest (SI aside). Although, in terms of turn 1 combo (not killing the opponent) I would say Belcher is every bit as if not faster than SI and a lot better against blue (due to EtW).

I usually run 4 Probe and 4 SW in my lists. In some events I have played in, I've stole multiple g1s against blue players not knowing what I am playing. In all of those cases, Serum Power might have revealed my plan, and had them mull to Force. Game 2, everyone knows what you are up to, so it doesn't matter as much.

Chrome Mox is great, but obviously sucks in multiples. For consistency, I don't think 4 is the correct number.

Namida
03-02-2012, 10:43 AM
I usually run 4 Probe and 4 SW in my lists. In some events I have played in, I've stole multiple g1s against blue players not knowing what I am playing. In all of those cases, Serum Power might have revealed my plan, and had them mull to Force. Game 2, everyone knows what you are up to, so it doesn't matter as much.

Chrome Mox is great, but obviously sucks in multiples. For consistency, I don't think 4 is the correct number.

Can you give the reason for playing four Probe and four Street Wraith in your deck? My personal experience is that those eight cards interfere with your ability to evaluate your opening hand correctly, and putting them into a deck that lives and dies on its opening hand isn't the right call. In fact, I would contend to you that Street Wraith and Probe are actually worse in multiples than Chrome Mox would be, because I think that looking at two Street Wraiths in your hand and going "Well, this could be anything" is so much worse for consistency than what double Chrome Mox does to you.

Pulp_Fiction
03-02-2012, 03:40 PM
Can you give the reason for playing four Probe and four Street Wraith in your deck? My personal experience is that those eight cards interfere with your ability to evaluate your opening hand correctly, and putting them into a deck that lives and dies on its opening hand isn't the right call. In fact, I would contend to you that Street Wraith and Probe are actually worse in multiples than Chrome Mox would be, because I think that looking at two Street Wraiths in your hand and going "Well, this could be anything" is so much worse for consistency than what double Chrome Mox does to you.

+1
This is what I had established in my head but unable to put into words. Also, I like CMox in multiples. I opened this hand against Burn on the draw: Belcher, 3x CMox, Pyretic Ritual, Rite, Petal. Naturally I drew a colored spell next turn and cast Belcher and passed. Next turn I activated it with the 3 CMox and flipped 8 cards and mis-fired. Next turn I won. I love the fact that it sticks around. Belcher is all about opening hands, sometimes you have to pass the turn after just dropping it, its nice to have mana sources available for later.

The deck is already light in IMS anyway, don't cut it down. I don't even have room for 4x Probe OR 4x SW and I don't even play BW. Run the max amount of rituals you can before dabbling in those cards. I could see Probe in the Manamorphose spot since it is the weakest in the deck but .. running it over anything that adds mana seems wrong.

tesla
03-02-2012, 05:29 PM
i agree with the opinion that free cantrips are bad in belcher, but probe is a different case. it´s ability to reveal you opponent´s hand is very, very important and it justifies probe to be in - 4x at least!

Namida
03-02-2012, 05:54 PM
i agree with the fact that free cantrips are bad i belcher, but probe is a different case. it´s ability to reveal you opponent´s hand is very, very important and it justifies probe to be in - 4x at least!

I'm not entirely sure this is the case, either. I'm willing to be proven wrong here, but my opinion on the matter is that the information isn't really something I think this deck can effectively utilize. To be frank, the deck is playing nothing but mana and win conditions--I don't understand how knowing your opponent's hand is really going to effect your decisions, in most circumstances. How often will you look at your opponent's hand and have it positively effect gameplay in that you were able to see that your opponent had a spell that you could have played around yet would not have played around if not for looking at your opponent's hand?

GoldenCid
03-02-2012, 06:38 PM
I'm not entirely sure this is the case, either. I'm willing to be proven wrong here, but my opinion on the matter is that the information isn't really something I think this deck can effectively utilize. To be frank, the deck is playing nothing but mana and win conditions--I don't understand how knowing your opponent's hand is really going to effect your decisions, in most circumstances. How often will you look at your opponent's hand and have it positively effect gameplay in that you were able to see that your opponent had a spell that you could have played around yet would not have played around if not for looking at your opponent's hand?

Maybe the information given by probe is more valuable in a BW build where you can search (not in a highly efficient manner, i must adimit) for some answers...

Final Fortune
03-02-2012, 07:18 PM
I really have no idea why you would bother with cantrips when you have Pyretic Ritual, Chancellor of the Tangle and Grim Monolith to choose from, if you can play 11 threats and 49 mana sources then you probably should play 11 threats and 49 mana sources.

Pyretic Ritual is a no brainer, Chancellor of the Tangle and Grim Monolith are debatable, but I don't see how Gitaxian Probe can really save you if you see a counter because you have to play into it anyway.

Vacrix
03-02-2012, 07:57 PM
Has anyone tried Chancellor of the Tangle? Considering that Belcher only cares about its opening hand, this could be pretty good. +4 ESG, potentially.

dillonkbase
03-02-2012, 08:35 PM
it technically could be even better because it can make the mana then get imprinted on chrome mox.

Final Fortune
03-03-2012, 12:59 AM
Has anyone tried Chancellor of the Tangle? Considering that Belcher only cares about its opening hand, this could be pretty good. +4 ESG, potentially.

Yes, if you don't mind top decking a "dud" every now and then I find it pretty useful to have +4 ESG for Tinder Wall, I typically run it and Pyretic Ritual.

tesla
03-03-2012, 01:46 AM
Pyretic Ritual is a no brainer, Chancellor of the Tangle and Grim Monolith are debatable, but I don't see how Gitaxian Probe can really save you if you see a counter because you have to play into it anyway.


Daze, spellpierce, spell snare, mindbreak trap: all of those you cannot play into but can play around. Another benefit is when you play against non-blue deck and opponent boards trap, he can´t bluff and has to mull into it.

Imagine that situation: you play against maverick, second game, after board and on the draw. you can go off but also you can put swarm and go off next turn. How you decide? There is a risk of trap when you combo 1st turn but he can put teeg or cannonist if you wait. Thanx to probe, this is no longer a hard decision.

And i belive there are tons of situations where you really appreciate probe in your opening hand.

Namida
03-03-2012, 03:34 AM
Perhaps I'm underestimating the ability of this deck to fight through hate, but I don't think that a deck with no disruption/protection has much to offer when it comes to playing around spells. The only thing you can do in most situations is to pass the turn to hope you draw the perfect cards to dodge situational counters, and that seems like a poor decision because you're giving your opponent more turns to interact with you if not outright kill you. I'm also assuming that you should automatically be playing around certain cards when the opportunity arises that you are able to do so, and therefore you don't need to devote a slot to affirming your actions at the sake of messing with your opening hands.

Your non-blue opponent is foolish if they try to bluff you instead of mulliganning to the spells they could actually play to interact with you. I also think it's wrong to side Xantid Swarm in against Maverick. Mindbreak Trap is admittedly bad for you, but I'm not going to slow my deck down and put potentially dead cards in for the sake of dodging a card I can't be sure my opponent has, especially when it would turn on the hate I'm almost 100% sure I will be facing in the form of a Gaddock Teeg, if not Thalia, Stony Silence, or Canonist. In this way, I don't think your example is a hard decision because I will always play around Teeg before I play around a Mindbreak Trap. Even if I know my opponent has sided in Mindbreak Trap, I'm going to force them to have it instead of letting them try to put anything else against me.

I also feel like the number of opening hands that have a mixture of cards that allow you to make a real gameplay choice and Probe to aid in that choice, like in your example, is a number that is very low. At the least, I feel like the number of hands that you're forced to mulligan because you'd need Probe to replace itself with initial mana or a win condition is much higher.

tesla
03-03-2012, 04:02 AM
I also feel like the number of opening hands that have a mixture of cards that allow you to make a real gameplay choice and Probe to aid in that choice, like in your example, is a number that is very low. At the least, I feel like the number of hands that you're forced to mulligan because you'd need Probe to replace itself with initial mana or a win condition is much higher.


This is very reasonable argumentation wich i understand. I just win many times thanx to probe and thats a fact.

You guys will probably hate me, but i think that probe is the main reason of the recent success of the belcher. A lot of top 16 at SCG open and invitational, where playset of "peepholes" were in EVERY decklist.

festeringGAB
03-03-2012, 04:25 AM
hello,I play a standard list,like this:

Creatures [12]
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall

Instants [12]
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Seething Song

Sorceries [19]
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame

Artifacts [16]
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Lands [1]
1 Taiga

4 Xantid Swarm
3 Reb
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reverent Silence
1 Hull Breach
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Shattering Spree
1 Goblin War Strike

I need help for side IN - Side OUT...
If you play Vs control deck,like StoneBlade..U/W controll..SnapcasterDeck..
what do you think is the correct side IN - OUT?

GoldenCid
03-03-2012, 08:51 AM
Yes, if you don't mind top decking a "dud" every now and then I find it pretty useful to have +4 ESG for Tinder Wall, I typically run it and Pyretic Ritual.

Well, if our aim is to increase the t1 win you'll dont bother if you see him in your hand because it will be always in the opening where it's useful. Yo have almost no way to topdek him except with manamoph or the turn draw...Did you exchange mox for him??

tesla
03-03-2012, 09:15 AM
Well, if our aim is to increase the t1 win you'll dont bother if you see him in your hand because it will be always in the opening where it's useful. Yo have almost no way to topdek him except with manamoph or the turn draw...Did you exchange mox for him??

Why mox? It was already written before - the greatest thing about him is that he gives you mana without loosing card wich can be used later to mox.

GoldenCid
03-03-2012, 09:46 AM
Why mox? It was already written before - the greatest thing about him is that he gives you mana without loosing card wich can be used later to mox.

Ok, what about a list with chancellor??

Final Fortune
03-03-2012, 09:54 AM
Ok, what about a list with chancellor??

Cutting Chrome Mox is inexcusable, it's just core 52 + Chancellor of the Tangle and Pyretic Ritual.

Chacenllor of the Tangle has its upside and downsides, being able to generate G mana and imprint on Chrome Mox is virtual card advantage but top decking a "dud" does matter when you're on the draw 50 percent of the time and counting on your 8th card for mana. It's a minor issue, but it's definitely a non zero one.

GoldenCid
03-03-2012, 10:05 AM
Ok, I know its up and down. And...btw what about the side here? Could pulp or anybody explain the card choice for a non wish board side?

Pulp_Fiction
03-03-2012, 01:51 PM
Chancellor is interesting, before I cut it down, I haven't tested it and won't for a while. The card it would replace is Manamorphose, but when using the EtW plan ... this is infinitely weaker. The last thing I want 2 do with Belcher is add ADDITIONAL Spirit Guides. They don't add storm. And in a deck where (without Serum Powder) you don't get to pick your win con, it just shows up in the opener, that is less that ideal. The majority of your games are won with EtW, especially in BW builds and Manamorphose often adds 2 by itself where as Chancellor adds 0. It is interesting but, if you want another mana accelerator, just run Grim Monolith, its terrible, but it adds 1.

@GoldenCid: Play whatever you think is good against your meta. I ran Leyline of Punishment to race Batterskull with tokens, Swarm to be good against anything blue (as it always is), Carpet of Flowers as an experiment and it turned out to be really damn good, easily allowing me to play around Spell Pierce/taxing counters, and Ancient Grudge because I was testing if it was better than Spree; never got to board it in but I like it more in theory. Put whatever will help you against ur meta, artifact destruction, most people like blasts (I don't but thats me), enchantment destruction, etc. SB construction is dependent on your metagame and should be unique to each individual, play what works.

GoldenCid
03-03-2012, 02:00 PM
Chancellor is interesting, before I cut it down, I haven't tested it and won't for a while. The card it would replace is Manamorphose, but when using the EtW plan ... this is infinitely weaker. The last thing I want 2 do with Belcher is add ADDITIONAL Spirit Guides. They don't add storm. And in a deck where (without Serum Powder) you don't get to pick your win con, it just shows up in the opener, that is less that ideal. The majority of your games are won with EtW, especially in BW builds and Manamorphose often adds 2 by itself where as Chancellor adds 0. It is interesting but, if you want another mana accelerator, just run Grim Monolith, its terrible, but it adds 1.

@GoldenCid: Play whatever you think is good against your meta. I ran Leyline of Punishment to race Batterskull with tokens, Swarm to be good against anything blue (as it always is), Carpet of Flowers as an experiment and it turned out to be really damn good, easily allowing me to play around Spell Pierce/taxing counters, and Ancient Grudge because I was testing if it was better than Spree; never got to board it in but I like it more in theory. Put whatever will help you against ur meta, artifact destruction, most people like blasts (I don't but thats me), enchantment destruction, etc. SB construction is dependent on your metagame and should be unique to each individual, play what works.

I was thinking that leyline of P is good against leyline of sancticity when you go for tokens...i'm a bit afraid of LoS, maybe revent silence will occup that slot...

Vacrix
03-03-2012, 02:36 PM
What about a Spoils Belcher list that also plays Serum Powder? Its ballsy but who knows, it might be good.

Final Fortune
03-03-2012, 10:32 PM
Chancellor is interesting, before I cut it down, I haven't tested it and won't for a while. The card it would replace is Manamorphose, but when using the EtW plan ... this is infinitely weaker. The last thing I want 2 do with Belcher is add ADDITIONAL Spirit Guides. They don't add storm. And in a deck where (without Serum Powder) you don't get to pick your win con, it just shows up in the opener, that is less that ideal. The majority of your games are won with EtW, especially in BW builds and Manamorphose often adds 2 by itself where as Chancellor adds 0. It is interesting but, if you want another mana accelerator, just run Grim Monolith, its terrible, but it adds 1.

@GoldenCid: Play whatever you think is good against your meta. I ran Leyline of Punishment to race Batterskull with tokens, Swarm to be good against anything blue (as it always is), Carpet of Flowers as an experiment and it turned out to be really damn good, easily allowing me to play around Spell Pierce/taxing counters, and Ancient Grudge because I was testing if it was better than Spree; never got to board it in but I like it more in theory. Put whatever will help you against ur meta, artifact destruction, most people like blasts (I don't but thats me), enchantment destruction, etc. SB construction is dependent on your metagame and should be unique to each individual, play what works.

Even if you replace Manamorphose with Chancellor of the Tangle, it's unlikely your Empty the Warrens will be for less than lethal. There's a diminishing returns on the amount of storm you generate, and not being able to accurately analyze your opening 7 because you don't know what your 8th card will be is just asking for unnecessary variance. Belcher lives and dies by the number of initial mana sources it has available, playing any less than you're able just makes you more vulnerable to Daze.

Leyline of Punishment is a terrible choice compared to Leyline of the Meek IMO, the crusade is good against everything.

Vacrix
03-05-2012, 12:43 AM
I think Chancellor of the Tangle should be run along side MM, not replace it. I'd think it could be a reasonable replacement for Land Grant actually. It could allow you to play a Landless Belcher list, and potentially allow you to successfully play Recross the Paths.

Final Fortune
03-05-2012, 02:09 AM
Cutting 5 r/g mana sources for 4 g mana sources is a really bad idea for what should be obvious reasons.

GoldenCid
03-05-2012, 06:38 AM
Why not wild cantor?

tesla
03-05-2012, 01:08 PM
Because it doesn´t give you any mana .-)

Vacrix
03-05-2012, 01:17 PM
Cutting Land Grants shouldn't present color issues often. 4 Manamorphose, 4 Tinderwall, 4 Chrome Mox, 4 Lotus Petal and 4 Simian Spirit Guide are enough. By the way that 20 red sources, not 16. You shouldn't need more than that. The down side of running Chancellor over LG is that the land stays around to produce mana, while Chancellor is also a dead draw beyond the opening hand.

I'm still a fan of Recross the Paths though, so I'm going to do some testing with Chancellor and see how it goes.

tesla
03-05-2012, 02:20 PM
i am a fan of recross path as well. it is a good path .) it is much more entertaining than traditional belcher build and you can use green pact as a mana source. you guys mentioned before that you use meditate as a draw engine. well i must say that ideas unbound is much better solution for me. three cards is enough for the combo and is 1mana cheaper wich you realy appreciate. that means you only need five mana + recross + cantrip to go off. three mana and cantrip or three mana and LED means that you can go off next turn wich is the most common situation to be honest. but i think it´s still good.

Vacrix
03-05-2012, 03:40 PM
Yeah. I thinking -5 perpetual mana sources is going to make it a bit harder to make pass the turn piles. Likely with those piles you will win on turn 3, which is exactly like normal Belcher.

tesla
03-05-2012, 04:07 PM
why turn three? you´ll win on turn two usually. as i told you my most common play with recross is like that: 1st turn: lotus petal + simian spirit guide + rite of flame - recross the path and lion´s eye into play. 2nd turn: draw probe, play probe and crack LED for three blue, draw ideas unbound, play it and draw LED, LED, probe, play probe, crack both LEDs and draw belcher. Done.

thefringthing
03-05-2012, 04:16 PM
(Sideboarding against Force of Will.)I used to do +4 Xantid Swarm, +4 Pyroblast, -1 Taiga, -4 Land Grant, -1 Chrome Mox, -1 Manamorphose, -1 Pyretic Ritual. This was before people replaced Manamorphose with Gitaxian Probe, though. You could try just boarding out the Taiga, Land Grants, and some Probes. You really should be playing Pyroblasts over REBs in this deck, by the way.

Vacrix
03-05-2012, 05:01 PM
why turn three? you´ll win on turn two usually. as i told you my most common play with recross is like that: 1st turn: lotus petal + simian spirit guide + rite of flame - recross the path and lion´s eye into play. 2nd turn: draw probe, play probe and crack LED for three blue, draw ideas unbound, play it and draw LED, LED, probe, play probe, crack both LEDs and draw belcher. Done.
Yeah but this deck would be tits if it could have LED in hand every game.

I see what you are saying though. If you are holding the draw spell in hand and don't have LED, than you can put LED as the top card, and then wait a turn, draw LED, and then play Probe, cracking LED. But if your cycler is MM instead of Probe than you need 2 IMS to start the combo, which means you need 3 cards. This version of the deck might want to play a few Street Wraiths.

On the up side, its much easier to go off with Recross, and even if you don't have the cycler or LED in hand, you can set up the top 2 cards that way to win on turn 3.

If Chancellor proves itself as a reasonable replacement for LG, Recross the Paths could potentially be better than Burning Wish. Either way the deck is going all in with these cards but Burning Wish requires you to have a total of 6 mana to go off and a high spell count (8 tokens isn't a win) while Recross requires half that because you can stack the deck. The only downside of Recross is that you need to have a cycler in hand and play 0 lands for it to be consistent. Further, Burning Wish doesn't give you access to a pass the turn play. You need to wait a few turns and hope you draw the right cards.

tesla
03-05-2012, 08:34 PM
This version of the deck might want to play a few Street Wraiths.

There is no doubt about it! I play 4 wraiths and 4 probes. You definetly need one cantrip or LED to Recross in your hand. Otherwise the hand is bad.

Vacrix
03-05-2012, 08:40 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of
2 Street Wraith
4 Probe
4 MM

Otherwise you are cutting yourself short on red sources.. though a 3/3 split between Wraith and MM could work too.

GoldenCid
03-05-2012, 09:25 PM
Dont you think that recross needs to many requiremnt to work?

fredteded
03-05-2012, 11:05 PM
I ran Belcher for the first time tonight at my local 20 man legacy tournament. Went undefeated in matches and games. I played Chancellor of the Tangle and 1 Gitaxian Probe over Land Grant & Taiga. I also played Tinder Wall to help make Chancellor better, which worked out pretty well. Overall I really liked the list and would run the same 60 back if I play it again. The best part about Chancellor is you know for sure your opponent will die if you activate Belcher.

Worst part was boredom from waiting on everyone else to finish since all my matches were done in what seemed like 5 minutes. :P

Vacrix
03-06-2012, 01:19 PM
Nice. How often were you able to make the Chancellor + Chrome Mox play? How often was Chancellor a dead card? And did you find that Chancellor would have been better as a land for pass the turn plays? Did you have any color fixing issues?

Far from conclusive, but this is a start towards finding out whether or not Chancellor is a good LG/Taiga replacement. And it makes the deck like 60 bucks cheaper.

Further, if your opponent plays something turn 1 like Pithing Needle on Belcher, you can improvise and hardcast your Chancellor. Its not the best play in the world but he makes himself G cheaper on the first turn and getting to 4GG isn't that hard. 6/7 Vigilance/Reach can block Goblin Guides, Goyfs, and Delvers all day long while smashing face.

tesla
03-06-2012, 03:45 PM
Further, if your opponent plays something turn 1 like Pithing Needle on Belcher, you can improvise and hardcast your Chancellor. Its not the best play in the world but he makes himself G cheaper on the first turn and getting to 4GG isn't that hard. 6/7 Vigilance/Reach can block Goblin Guides, Goyfs, and Delvers all day long while smashing face.

Lol. It would be so cool to win a game this way. Anyway, this version of belcher seems so versatile, i really love it. There is a big event in my hometown this weekend and i will definetly grab this stuff. Post my result afterwards.

Vacrix
03-06-2012, 04:31 PM
I ran Belcher for the first time tonight at my local 20 man legacy tournament. Went undefeated in matches and games. I played Chancellor of the Tangle and 1 Gitaxian Probe over Land Grant & Taiga. I also played Tinder Wall to help make Chancellor better, which worked out pretty well. Overall I really liked the list and would run the same 60 back if I play it again. The best part about Chancellor is you know for sure your opponent will die if you activate Belcher.

Worst part was boredom from waiting on everyone else to finish since all my matches were done in what seemed like 5 minutes. :P
What did you play against?

GoldenCid
03-10-2012, 12:33 PM
I've been testing serum powder and the impression i had was that it's as good as bad topdeck...

Darklingske
03-11-2012, 01:53 PM
The main problem I'm having with Serum Powder is what do I take out for it? And indeed, past your 1th turn, Powder is just plain BAD!

Vacrix
03-11-2012, 03:25 PM
The point of Serum Powder builds is to have such an aggressive mulligan that topdecking after the first turn doesn't really matter.

Darklingske
03-11-2012, 04:07 PM
I know, but again, what do you take out for them?

GoldenCid
03-11-2012, 04:43 PM
I know, but again, what do you take out for them?

You dont want to run powder? or you are talking about sideboarding?

Darklingske
03-12-2012, 05:33 PM
What I mean is this: I understand why you would want to play Powder, but starting from a standard list, what do you replace in the deck to make place for the powders? Maybe the Tinder walls?

GoldenCid
03-12-2012, 05:42 PM
What I mean is this: I understand why you would want to play Powder, but starting from a standard list, what do you replace in the deck to make place for the powders? Maybe the Tinder walls?
Never. Reokace cantrips if you have.

Darklingske
03-13-2012, 04:56 PM
Okay, thanks. I'll try it out. Probably I'll replace the manamorphoses first & then the Probes. And see what goes best during testing.

kwelts
03-15-2012, 01:05 AM
storm newb here so i apologize if the question is silly but i really want to play this deck one day.

I'm a huge fan of the 1 land lists but i dont understand why it would run a full playset of land grants. if you fetch the taiga then you can't go off with belcher, right? wouldnt decks be better off running 2 grants instead of 4 and an extra 2 cantrips?

thefringthing
03-15-2012, 01:20 AM
Someone asked that a couple pages back. You just don't understand how the card works. They still die if you activate Goblin Charbelcher with no lands left in your deck.

kwelts
03-15-2012, 01:26 AM
Someone asked that a couple pages back. You just don't understand how the card works. They still die if you activate Goblin Charbelcher with no lands left in your deck.

oh my god! if thats the case then your best bet is to use land grant. amazing!

P.S.
03-15-2012, 01:34 AM
I don't really think there's any room left for Street Wraith in this deck. Plus, I mean, it kind of encourages keeping shitty hands. Now you're tempted to roll with a hand that has X number of Wraiths/Probes thinking that you'll "hit" something and, welp, the odds aren't great!

I do like the Chancellor idea though. At the very least, it's worth giving a whirl.

Satanarchrist
03-15-2012, 01:43 PM
This is my current list; I think it counts as one of the more 'basic' builds. I'd love to try it out, but I have no idea how to encorporate something like Serum Powder, or how to play it effectively.

Main Deck:
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal

4 Tinder Wall
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
4 Pyretic Ritual

1 Taiga

4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Empty the Warrens

SB:
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Shattering Spree
1 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
1 Deathmark
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

Also, any I haven't read through the other 1399 posts to see if there where any major advances in sideboarding or main decking, and any tips on that would be very helpful

Final Fortune
03-15-2012, 03:05 PM
Seriously, Desperate and/or Pyretic Ritual > Manamorphose, if you aren't playing every Red Cabal Ritual then you are misplaying Belcher. The only question is whether or not Chancellor of the Tangle or Grim Monolith are worth the inclusion or not (hint: Chancellor of the Tangle is)

Satanarchrist
03-15-2012, 04:15 PM
Seriously, Desperate and/or Pyretic Ritual > Manamorphose, if you aren't playing every Red Cabal Ritual then you are misplaying Belcher. The only question is whether or not Chancellor of the Tangle or Grim Monolith are worth the inclusion or not (hint: Chancellor of the Tangle is)

ok, I pulled out Manamorphose and put in Desperate Rituals. What should I take out for Chancellor of the Tangles then?

Final Fortune
03-15-2012, 05:05 PM
Gitaxian Probe pretty much

Satanarchrist
03-15-2012, 05:26 PM
Do you run Serum Powder?

And any suggestions for my sideboard?

thefringthing
03-15-2012, 10:09 PM
It surprises me there's so little consensus on a list. Just write some shitty Python code to test a billion hands each of a couple different lists and see which one goes off the most.

kwelts
03-16-2012, 01:27 AM
It surprises me there's so little consensus on a list. Just write some shitty Python code to test a billion hands each of a couple different lists and see which one goes off the most.

can you do it? i dont know python.

GoldenCid
03-16-2012, 07:14 PM
Gitaxian Probe pretty much

I don't know....sometimes i really feel that i need cantrips in the deck...it's an extrange thing...cantrips helps us to reccorver after counter and discar spells. I feel a bit unconfortable with all all all in list. I think that 8 cantrips and 16 rituals are ok but it can be a matter of playstyle.

OurSerratedDust
03-16-2012, 07:45 PM
It surprises me there's so little consensus on a list. Just write some shitty Python code to test a billion hands each of a couple different lists and see which one goes off the most.

I made a belcher simulator in Java a few months ago and managed to max out the turn one win-percentage. Unfortunately, I got busy with school and never released anything about it. I just started working on it again, and will write a little article on it in the next week or so.

2sided3angle
03-20-2012, 10:29 AM
Has there been a post on how to sideboard with Belcher?

I understand you mostly bring in Swarms and REB effects and the rest are ran as Wish targets but what do you usually take out.

Satanarchrist
03-26-2012, 12:12 AM
Has there been a post on how to sideboard with Belcher?

I understand you mostly bring in Swarms and REB effects and the rest are ran as Wish targets but what do you usually take out.

Since almost everything is needed, I usually take out the Pyretic Rituals because they're inferior duplicates of Desperate Rituals, and sub in Swarms for Blue decks. I've never had much luck with REB working. Maybe I'm not good at mtg, or maybe where I play it isn't worthwhile to side in. Right now I took those out for Serum Powder. That way game two I've got an aggressive mulligan tactic that they didn't know about game 1

GoldenCid
03-26-2012, 06:32 PM
I understand you mostly bring in Swarms and REB effects and the rest are ran as Wish targets but what do you usually take out.

Concerning my side...this is true except im running a couple of ingot chewer.

Seething song is a common side out target for me...

Vacrix
03-26-2012, 09:24 PM
Xantid Swarm isn't a good choice post-board right now. There's too many Lightning Bolts and Chain Lightnings in the maindeck. Your opponent can just wait for a turn and draw 1 of 8 cards to kill it and hold on to their Force. I'd play Autumn's Veil in its place.

Darklingske
03-28-2012, 01:36 PM
Xantid Swarm isn't a good choice post-board right now. There's too many Lightning Bolts and Chain Lightnings in the maindeck. Your opponent can just wait for a turn and draw 1 of 8 cards to kill it and hold on to their Force. I'd play Autumn's Veil in its place.

I agree with that. Last week during testing, my Swarms never lived longer then 1 turn. I havn't tested the veils yet, but am doing that tomorrow!

Vacrix
03-28-2012, 02:06 PM
They work well and let you know if you are going to nuke your entire hand or not.

2sided3angle
04-13-2012, 04:12 PM
Hey. Played Belcher at the SCG Invitational to a 34th finish.

Went 3-1 Day 1 and 2-2 Day 2

Vacrix
04-13-2012, 04:22 PM
Nice. Report?

Infinitium
04-15-2012, 07:58 AM
Reforge the Soul 3RR
Sorcery
Each player discards his or her hand and draws seven cards.
Miracle 1{R}

This.. is good. Not only does it act as a win condition by it's lonesome even hardcasted, but it also has the potential to refill Belchers hand should the first combo attempt fail. Granted it does have the danger of drawing the opponent into disruption but still.

EDIT: Case in point list

Wheel Belcher

Mana
1 Taiga
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Chancellor of the Tangle <- Also a ghetto win condition once in a blue moon

Win Conditions
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Reforge the Soul
3 Burning Wish

Sideboard
1 Empty the Warrens <- Obligatory
1 Recross the Paths <- Sets up Reforge the Soul for a next turn win!
0-1 Tendrils of Agony <- Not even sure this is needed since Recross -> Reforge should add enough juice to deal with any permanent hate on Belcher already
0-1 Reforge the Soul <- depending on if 4x BW is better MD
0-1 Past in Flames <- Just in case
9-12 Largely irrelevant cards <- some mix of Xantid Swarm, Ingot Chewer and additional BW targets (Chain Lightning, Reverent Silence, Shattering Spree etc)

mistercakes
04-15-2012, 12:41 PM
i think reforge the soul could be a 1 or 2 of in the maindeck, and it probably replaces the diminishing returns in the sb.

post above: you should always be running 4 burning wish.

been playing belcher a lot. njmagic on magic online.
i've gone 3-1 in two dailies with it over the last few weeks. (they don't launch too frequently)

Infinitium
04-16-2012, 02:06 PM
you should always be running 4 burning wish.

You really have to provide any sort of reasoning behind that statement, especially as BW in most lists only amounts to EtW#5 through 7. It -could- be better in the above list as it also sets up Recross the Paths, but I somehow doubt it's better than Reforge the Soul (or Belcher)#4 MD. 12 MD win conditions may be the right call with most of them costing 5 effective mana and counterspells in the format, but that is pretty hard (maybe impossible) to prove objectively.

Speaking of the above list, turns out playing Chancellor is very disappointing with draw 7's. I'm going to try Noxious Revival in the spot for the time being to see whether it can play nice with Reforge.

feline
04-16-2012, 11:55 PM
I've got a playset of xantid swarm and autumn's veil, I usually run 4 of one and 2/3 of the other in the sideboard, while the rest is wish targets, but it all depends on which of the 2 places I'm going to play at and their metagames, but at a SCG open I'd probably not lean towards the Xantid swarm right now either with all the answers out there, depending on how i felt at the time of looking at it though if it comes down to me going to one, i could see still leaving some in and doing like 2 of one, 4 of another or 3 / 3, or even 4 / 4 if i felt that was the right move, giving me 2 angles to come from for "don't counter my stuff!" lol >^,^< bringing in all 8 at once though could be risky.

Togores
04-17-2012, 02:06 AM
After lots of testing i came to conclusion that the best is 4 autums veil to chant the opp and 4 piroblast to counter all blue cards including destroing jace, vendoloion and delver and get rid of mindbreak trap.
Xantid is to bad as a card because. Swords, path and lightning srmre overall and the opp already knows our plan.

GoldenCid
04-17-2012, 09:17 PM
i think reforge the soul could be a 1 or 2 of in the maindeck, and it probably replaces the diminishing returns in the sb.

post above: you should always be running 4 burning wish.

been playing belcher a lot. njmagic on magic online.
i've gone 3-1 in two dailies with it over the last few weeks. (they don't launch too frequently)

Completly agree!

mistercakes
04-22-2012, 01:35 PM
After lots of testing i came to conclusion that the best is 4 autums veil to chant the opp and 4 piroblast to counter all blue cards including destroing jace, vendoloion and delver and get rid of mindbreak trap.
Xantid is to bad as a card because. Swords, path and lightning srmre overall and the opp already knows our plan.

okay, so what are you siding out for the 8 cards. particularly the rug matchup is more difficult because sometimes they run stifle.

eh we know what their lists are:

i've been siding out: 4 gitaxian probe, 2 tinder wall, 1 seething song, 1 pyretic ritual.

what about you guys?

GoldenCid
04-29-2012, 02:32 PM
i think reforge the soul could be a 1 or 2 of in the maindeck, and it probably replaces the diminishing returns in the sb.


I want to strong out this point since Reforge the Soul does not solve any problem of the deck. It's an upgrade for the combo certainly but the MU against U control is still awful. Runnig 3 MD for miracle does not worth the pitty. I think that 2 MD 1 side is ok!

Maybe this is the list i'd use with it:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [U] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
2 [AVR] Reforge The Soul

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [M11] Pyretic Ritual
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
2 [UL] Grim Monolith / Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [LRW] Ingot Chewer
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [SC] Goblin War Strike
SB: 1 [AVR] Reforge The Soul

Strong mana generation with some cantrinp fixing.

feline
04-30-2012, 04:55 PM
The one problem I see with reforge the souls is force of will, if they have it, they can let you burn your hand away to cast it, then just counter it, and if they dont, they could get a new hand of 7 and possibly get a force of will, then just wait till you're approaching seething song or desperate ritual, use it on that, and prevent you from even getting to empty the warrens tricks, or just flat out countering burning wish / goblin charbelcher.

aside from that however, that 1 card in a pool of thousands, though its a heavily played card being that its force of will, whenever that isn't an issue, you just make your game ones that much more ridiculus! >^,^<

Vacrix
04-30-2012, 05:03 PM
True Reforge can refill their hand with Force of Will. Then again, more and more control decks are playing 3 copies of Force these days so its not as likely as it was a few months ago. Also, you can still play Empty the Warrens as your business spell or have enough mana floating to potentially play double Business spells. The fact that Belcher can play Reforge makes it dangerous in that it can run 14 business spells now, 7 of which can produce a turn 1 win (not counting random Burning Wish --> natural Tendrils plays because thats rare). It also means the deck can recover from Force quite well in that a topdecked Reforge can lead to a new combo turn with very few cards.

Also, you can play Autumn's Veil in the board as a protection spell to protect the whole combo turn. I think its better than Xantid Swarm right now anyway with all the Bolts/Chains getting played in UR Delver and RUG Tempo.

feline
04-30-2012, 05:28 PM
Yea >^,^< I run both autums veil & xantid swarm, and just bring in either/or accordingly, the other half of the sideboard being the burning wish targets of course.

Vacrix
04-30-2012, 05:34 PM
I'm wondering if Mirri's Guile would be good sideboard tech. It helps you sculpt a beast hand, and can set up a Reforge the Soul attempt pretty nicely as you can stack the top 3 without having to invest any mana like you would with top, and then draw Reforge to cast the Miracle, or wait a turn to set up with extra mana sources, protection, etc. I'm testing it in PSI right now and its been pretty sick so far.

EDIT:
Also, Mirri's Guile allows you to actually use spare Land Grants for something, as you can shuffle away the top 3 that you don't want to see.

zmattk
04-30-2012, 11:35 PM
I've been thinking the same thing regarding force of will and reforge the soul. The thing is that it your opponent doesn't have it when you go off, reforge almost guarantees they'll hit it which can be disasterous if we are going for belcher. I still think its worth some testing though because naturally drawing it can really help recover if we get countered the first time around. The one thing I don't really like is that we will almost never cast it for the miracle cost since we are going off within the first few turns and don't have a way to properly set it up on a consistent basis.

I like the idea of miri's guile but I don think we have much room for it. Our sideboards mainly consist of blue hate, and ways to beat out hate against our deck. Miri's guile is only allowing us to set up what we draw which slows us down in the long run. As one of the fastest combo decks in the format, we cannot really afford to be slowed down at all.

Vacrix
05-01-2012, 12:05 AM
I like the idea of miri's guile but I don think we have much room for it. Our sideboards mainly consist of blue hate, and ways to beat out hate against our deck. Miri's guile is only allowing us to set up what we draw which slows us down in the long run. As one of the fastest combo decks in the format, we cannot really afford to be slowed down at all.
I disagree. This isn't really one of the fastest combo decks in terms of when you win.. at least until Reforge the Soul upped the win conditions and provided more turn 1 kill potential. TES and ANT are both faster than Belcher. They actually win on turn 2 consistently while still having a great turn 1 kill percentage with IT/BW + LED into an IGG/PiF loop or AdN. Belcher Empty's the Warrens most of the time and will often kill on turn 2 if you can make 20 goblins (not likely until Reforge) or turn 3 (often the case when you make 10-14 goblins). Reforge the Soul definitely raises the potential for the deck to get faster kills and match TES's speed, especially now that you can Burning Wish into a D7 without even needing LED to do it (Diminishing Returns...). Mirri's Guile allows you to slow roll the opponent, which is an important trait of a combo deck. Its not quite as good against Tempo decks because you don't have quite as much time to assemble a winning hand but against slow control decks, its pretty important to have some method of slow rolling. To illustrate... I play PSI in real life all the time. Granted, I don't play a BW board so I have a lot more sideboard space, but Carpet of Flowers, Mirri's Guile, Duress's, and a few other tech cards I switch around between allow me to slow roll my opponent.... with a glass house. I'm confident that Belcher can do the same if people start playing perpetual resources to beat control rather than one time use protection spells. Xantid Swarm is shit these days. Pyroblast isn't much better if your opponent has at least 2 countermagic, which they certainly will post-board. Mirri's Guile is a great perpetual resource to ensure you can sculpt a second or even a third attempt. In PSI, granted I play like 20 business spells but with Carpet of Flowers, I can play like 6 or 7 combo attempts.. vs. Belcher's 1 or 2 attempts. Its about perpetual resources, thats how you beat control.

We should consider Defense Grid. Its old school tech, but I think its about time Belcher brought it back. Its better than Swarm right now, even if its a Spell Snare target, that might mean you get Spell Snare out of their hand so you can go for a BW line of play. This helps when you play Gitaxian Probe.

GoldenCid
05-01-2012, 09:47 AM
Both SI and Belcher are condemnd to be a tier 2 deck unless brainstorm / top are banned. THey completely lack of diruption makes them sons of Force of Will if it's in the opponent hand. Reforge simply helps us to make a more efficient combo turn making more tokens or matching belcher...that's all folks!!

2sided3angle
05-01-2012, 04:24 PM
Nice. Report?

Sorry I haven't replied back regarding this. Still interested in a tournament report?

Vacrix
05-01-2012, 04:33 PM
Sorry I haven't replied back regarding this. Still interested in a tournament report?
Always.

GoldenCid
05-02-2012, 09:44 PM
Sorry I haven't replied back regarding this. Still interested in a tournament report?

Off course!!!

Richard Cheese
05-03-2012, 01:01 PM
I made a belcher simulator in Java a few months ago and managed to max out the turn one win-percentage. Unfortunately, I got busy with school and never released anything about it. I just started working on it again, and will write a little article on it in the next week or so.

Any update on this? I'm curious to see what the results were and the methodology involved.

GoldenCid
05-05-2012, 09:47 AM
yea >^,^< I run both autums veil & xantid swarm, and just bring in either/or accordingly, the other half of the sideboard being the burning wish targets of course.

In this days i was thinking about Autum vs Swarm, my only problem was that i have seen tons of players running Mindbreak Trap n their sides. If Exile a spell is not Counter a spell, then Autum's veil does nothing against trap roght? or am i wrong?

Vacrix
05-05-2012, 03:46 PM
Wow... it doesn't work. Didn't realize Autumn's Veil read 'counter' and not 'target'. I thought it basically gave your spells hexproof from blue and black. Good to know.

GoldenCid
05-06-2012, 02:15 PM
Wow... it doesn't work. Didn't realize Autumn's Veil read 'counter' and not 'target'. I thought it basically gave your spells hexproof from blue and black. Good to know.

I thought so.
And btw, has anybody had any experience with Reforge the Soul?

I have some comments on it:

A- This card increases dematicaly the storm count and elevates the posibility of going off with belcher.
B- DEcreases the number of mulligan
C- Recicles the hand of the opo in g2 allowing him to hit trap when he hadnt iniatially in its hand. The same is valid for counters in g1
D- If you hit miracle is simply insane.
E- Requires high mana generation for wishing it (minor point)

Ziveeman
05-06-2012, 04:50 PM
Played Belcher at a 28-man IQ yesterday. Made Top 4. Went undefeated in the Swiss. I probably would have made the finals but I scooped my brother into it (since I was qualified and he wasn't). I'll get a tournament report soon.

I had tested with 3 Reforge the Soul MD but I realized it wasn't doing much and doesn't really help versus Force of Will, so I just replaced the Diminishing Returns with Reforge the Soul. I didn't ever cast it though so I don't know what difference it would have made.

mistercakes
05-06-2012, 10:49 PM
cool, if you could give your sb strat (what to side out) i think that's always pretty important as the deck more or less plays itself.

congrats!

Vacrix
05-07-2012, 03:13 AM
Its hard to say whether or not Reforge the Soul is good if you didn't cast it. It has a marginal utility against blue because of the Miracle cost.

Ziveeman
05-07-2012, 12:26 PM
I actually did playtest it maindeck the days going into the IQ for awhile, but I switched back to the regular build since I actually found myself pitching it to Chrome Mox most of the time or just going for Burning Wish or Belcher. I meant that I didn't actually see how good it was as a Diminishing Returns replacement. I wasn't comfortable playing it maindeck in an IQ just yet.

GoldenCid
05-07-2012, 12:36 PM
And why belcher over ad nauseam for such a tournament?

Ziveeman
05-07-2012, 02:05 PM
I haven't played Ad Nauseam for awhile so I didn't even consider playing it. I was actually set on Esper Stoneblade for the event but when I saw 5+ burn decks being sleeved up before the event, I kinda decided to play Belcher instead.

For the record, I played (my tournament report will be up tonight)

Round 1 - Burn - 2-0
Round 2 - RUG Delver -2-1
Round 3 - Maverick - 2-1
Round 4 - Affinity - ID
Round 5 - RUG Delver - ID
Top 8 - Maverick - 2-1 (same guy as round 3)
Top 4 - Maverick (my brother) - Scoop my brother into top 2 since I'm qualified and he wasn't.

And @mistercakes - I didn't board at all except in Round 2, where it was -4 Seething Song +4 Pyroblast

Oh, and decklist is pretty standard.

4 Tinder Wall
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Land Grant
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens

1 Taiga

Sideboard
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Pyroblast
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Shattering Spree
1 Hull Breach
1 Deathmark
1 Goblin War Strike

Manamorphose should have been Desperate Ritual but I couldn't find any (since the +1 is much more important now that Reforge the Soul is in the SB).

SBGpinas
05-11-2012, 06:06 AM
I have just recently encountered this deck, and luckily our card pool had all the components needed for this deck. So far, i've found this deck to be incredibly fun and consistent. I do have a concern about this deck that I'm kind of stuck with.

based on the games I've played with belcher, I've basically summarized the mull conditions for a standard 1-land belcher build before sideboarding:


hands without a kill condition (belcher or warrens)
hands with kill conditions, but nowhere near the required mana to cast it
hands with empty the warrens that can create less than 10 goblin tokens


my concern is that i am still kind of stumped with what the mull conditions are AFTER boarding. Is it as simple as keeping any hand with autumn's veil/xantid swarm/pyroblast? i have a feeling it's not as simple as that, and my tests with the sideboard so far have been inconsistent to say the least (which shows my total lack of experience with it)

can anyone shed some light into this to help a belcher newb like me?

GoldenCid
05-11-2012, 09:54 AM
I have just recently encountered this deck, and luckily our card pool had all the components needed for this deck. So far, i've found this deck to be incredibly fun and consistent. I do have a concern about this deck that I'm kind of stuck with.

based on the games I've played with belcher, I've basically summarized the mull conditions for a standard 1-land belcher build before sideboarding:


hands without a kill condition (belcher or warrens)
hands with kill conditions, but nowhere near the required mana to cast it
hands with empty the warrens that can create less than 10 goblin tokens


my concern is that i am still kind of stumped with what the mull conditions are AFTER boarding. Is it as simple as keeping any hand with autumn's veil/xantid swarm/pyroblast? i have a feeling it's not as simple as that, and my tests with the sideboard so far have been inconsistent to say the least (which shows my total lack of experience with it)

can anyone shed some light into this to help a belcher newb like me?

Concerning the first part of your question i could say that you are right. With the exception of question 2 (kill cond with anymana generation or very poor) the other one could be kept i you have an idea of what your opo is playing. On quetion 1, the are some decks (for example burn) that gives you let's say 2 turn for waiting before going off. If you are on the draw you'll have 3 additional cards (that if you have no cantrips in hand). For question 3 you must consider that some decks, again, such as burn, RUG and simil can't deal consistentely with 8-10 tokens turn one (not to mention if can go BW----> Goblin War Strike).
Finally i dont know your list but BW IS CONSIDERED A KILL CONDITION. The same is valid for Reforge the Soul if you run it.

Post board things are a bit difficult, but it's wisheable to see a hate card among the opening 7. The other six cards follow the same rules than g1. I mean suppose this:

1 Xantind swarm
1 BW
1 LED
1 Land Grant
1 Tinder Wall
1 Desperate ritual
1 Manamorphosis

I¡ll keep this one.

1 Pyroblast
1 EtW
1 Lotus petal
2 Land Grant
1 Taiga
1 Burning wish

Probalby i'll mull this one.

SBGpinas
05-11-2012, 10:26 AM
@GoldenCid

Oh yes, how silly of me to forget Burning Wish.

Ok, so 1 hate card + rule of thumb for the remaining 6 cards seems like a good starting point. Thank you for the insight.

I have yet to try Reforge the Soul. How does it fare in your experience?

Also, I'm still undecided whether to run Xantid Swarm or Autumn's Veil in the SB. On one hand, Xantid Swarm can be answered by removal. On the other, Autumn's Veil essentially requires you to have 1 extra green mana to combo off - which can get tricky at times.

Finally, I've seen people swear by Pyretic Ritual over Manamorphose. Is the 1 extra mana really more important than the cantrip?

GoldenCid
05-11-2012, 11:58 AM
@GoldenCid

Oh yes, how silly of me to forget Burning Wish.

Ok, so 1 hate card + rule of thumb for the remaining 6 cards seems like a good starting point. Thank you for the insight.

I have yet to try Reforge the Soul. How does it fare in your experience?

Also, I'm still undecided whether to run Xantid Swarm or Autumn's Veil in the SB. On one hand, Xantid Swarm can be answered by removal. On the other, Autumn's Veil essentially requires you to have 1 extra green mana to combo off - which can get tricky at times.

Finally, I've seen people swear by Pyretic Ritual over Manamorphose. Is the 1 extra mana really more important than the cantrip?

@Reforge: Some post above i wrote my experience (short) about it.

Swarm vs Autum: That is the question!! I dont know how to answer. Swarm answer every instant hate card including trap while autum doesnt. But auntum does not suffer vs spot removal. Nowadays i run the bee + 4 REB / Pyroblast but it's just a meta call i guess, trap is very played even by those decks that lack removal and swarm relies on the incertidumbre fo the opo about keeping or not his removal.

Finalley i run both ritual and morphose so i have not that dicotomy. :cool:

SBGpinas
05-11-2012, 10:30 PM
@Reforge: Some post above i wrote my experience (short) about it.

Swarm vs Autum: That is the question!! I dont know how to answer. Swarm answer every instant hate card including trap while autum doesnt. But auntum does not suffer vs spot removal. Nowadays i run the bee + 4 REB / Pyroblast but it's just a meta call i guess, trap is very played even by those decks that lack removal and swarm relies on the incertidumbre fo the opo about keeping or not his removal.

Finalley i run both ritual and morphose so i have not that dicotomy. :cool:

I'm curious how you are able to fit both Pyretic Rit and Manamorphose in the list. If you don't mind, may I see your list?

I run Seething Song, Desperate Ritual, Rite of Flame as my rituals, while I have Manamorphose and Gitaxian Probe as my cantrips.

GoldenCid
05-13-2012, 08:29 PM
I'm curious how you are able to fit both Pyretic Rit and Manamorphose in the list. If you don't mind, may I see your list?

I run Seething Song, Desperate Ritual, Rite of Flame as my rituals, while I have Manamorphose and Gitaxian Probe as my cantrips.

Here you are:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [U] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [9E] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [M11] Pyretic Ritual
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [AVR] Reforge the Soul
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [LRW] Ingot Chewer
SB: 4 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [SC] Goblin War Strike

Note that it's a moxless list, maybe that's why you can't fit 16 rituals. This list is which i had best results with. Sometimes, i must admit, want to have a mox as "initial spark" but as i said it happens sometimes anyway i have 12 "sparks".
Any comment you have is welcomed!

SBGpinas
05-14-2012, 12:24 AM
Interesting... I'm going to give a moxless list a try as well. Thanks for the info!

Vacrix
05-14-2012, 01:46 AM
Eh... you don't want to cut Mox. Its too important. Especially with access to Reforge the Soul, you don't want to miss out on perpetual resources. They provide additional attempts and allow you to effectively play around hate. Land Grant, Chrome Mox, and Burning Wish in the same hand allow you to actually get rid of a bear, or piece of permanent hate if it comes out before you can effectively go off.

Also.. no love for Mirri's Guile? I've been playing it as a 1'of in PSI and its fucking fantastic. I set up so many attempts with it, find protection, business, rituals, IMS, etc. It can serve the same function in this deck if people just cut down on unnecessary Wishboard cards. For example, Goblin War Strike and Grapeshot are rarely wished for. Why play them when you forgo 2 sideboard spaces that help you in your hardest matchup? From that board I'd cut:
-1 Ingot Chewer
-1 Goblin Warstrike
-1 Grapeshot
+1 Autumn's Veil
+1 Taiga
+1 Mirri's Guile

Honestly I don't know why people haven't tried playing lands in the post-board. The conventional thought is that the more lands you play, the worse Belcher gets. This is true for most matchups but not for control. I'm actually boarding in Bayou and Taiga in PSI atm against control decks because you really need the perpetual resources if you are going to go off through a countermagic wall. If they have Force/Flusterstorm, etc. you have to have a solution or you just roll over and die. Extra perpetual mana sources makes extra Land Grants perpetual resources instead of literally dead draws. Also, its not like adding in an extra Taiga hurts Belcher much. You're still likely to do 20 damage with 2 Taiga in the deck (you should see one about every 25 cards and you only need to hit 10 nonland to get a kill with mountains) and the deck has enough mana to go off again. Control doesn't often have an answer to a resolved Belcher.. you just top deck mana sources until you win so a misfire doesn't equal a loss unless they have you on a fast clock. Further, more land means you have a better chance at a second attempt if you do misfire because you are more likely to have a land as an IMS. Just food for the thought.

Also, I've said this before but Pulpficition played a great list a while back that ran maindeck Blood Moon. I wonder if thats a viable option again considering that the DTB is mostly non-red, fetchland playing decks.

GoldenCid
05-14-2012, 08:10 PM
Cantrips, moxes, rituals are the variable slots among the list. All of them have strengths and weakneeses.

Vacrix
05-14-2012, 08:22 PM
Sure but consider what you forgo by cutting IMS's. The deck can take different accelerants in and out but non-land IMS's are the scarcest resource that Belcher has in that regard because the business spells are not particularly interchangable, though perhaps that changes with the advent of Reforge the Soul as not everyone is playing it in their MD.

GoldenCid
05-14-2012, 09:36 PM
Sorry for my ignorance but "IMS" is?

Vacrix
05-14-2012, 09:39 PM
Initial Mana Source. ie. SSG, ESG, Petal, Land Grant, Taiga, and Chrome Mox.

GoldenCid
05-15-2012, 06:47 PM
Initial Mana Source. ie. SSG, ESG, Petal, Land Grant, Taiga, and Chrome Mox.

I get your point and appreciate it. Chrome mox is, for me, the most "high risk/high reward" card in the deck. I mean, for instance it could be a powerful IMS pithching an useless burning wish and / or EtW in your hand, that's correct. Moreover you can simply cast it for increase the storm count and yes it's a perpetual mana suorce. On this last point i want to ask whenever it's "perpetual". Most of times you tap it, sac a petal, remove a guide and so on for winning. Seeing it untapped again is rare.
On the other hand, i demands to "loose" a card for working as IMS that decrease the storm count and, in my opinion makes more difficult to choose the initial hand.
I'm not saying that mox is bad, just describing it's pro and cons to get a good result from this disicussion.

PS: Have you built a list with Reforge the Soul, i simply can fit one that like me...

Ozymandias
05-15-2012, 07:59 PM
I've actually been planning on running the following sideboard next time I roll Belcher.

1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Shattering Spree
1 Reverent Silence
4 Autumn's Veil
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Forest

Getting a Waste-proof land is pretty hot versus the current crop of blue decks, as you can sit there and eat counterd with test utumn's Veil. Running 4 Probe and 4 manamorphose means that I have the storm for tendrils, and I would rather have returns than reforge most of the time. Still kind of leery about no Pyroclasm, but Teeg and Thalia are turn 2 cards...

Vacrix
05-15-2012, 08:23 PM
@GoldenCid
I wouldn't say that situation is rare at all. You don't always go off or else this deck would be DTB. Sometimes, you play Belcher and pass the turn. Sometimes you play Belcher and miss your activation. Sometimes Belcher gets countered and you go into topdeck mode with the resources you have available. Granted, Belcher has to go all in with its hand to have an effective combo turn so it doesn't really abuse its perpetual resources as well as other storm combo decks do. Compared to SI, another glass house, you only have to invest a ritual and a D4 to combo as you get to keep your perpetual resource for another attempt if this one fails, meaning you only trade 2 cards for your opponents Force. However, if you invest 5 to 7 cards into one attempt, you lose the power of Chrome Mox and Land Grant.








I know its unconventional but perhaps a list without Burning Wish would be better than traditional Belcher builds. Burning Wish takes like 6 mana to play EtW. Why not just play the 4th copy of both Reforge and EtW so you pay less for these cards and then raise the business count with Spoils of the Vault?
Business:
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Reforge the Soul
X Spoils of the Vault (2?)

Spoils synergizes quite nicely with Reforge the Soul as you can decide what the best target is after you've seen like 14+ cards total. I can't remember the last time it actually killed me in testing in Belcher builds. It can find the LED you need to activate Belcher or you can float mana off LED to find the correct business spell to get the kill. Also, with 4'ofs as your win conditions, you can just choose the best one with mana floating. This opens up the possibility of actual post-board transformations instead of siding in a mere 7 cards (max) that only ever beat an unexperienced or unprepared control player. Xantid Swarm/Pyroblast doesn't get there in reality.

With more than twice as much space, the SB could consist of something like...
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Autumn's Veil
2 Pyroblast
2 Past in Flames
2 Noxious Revival
1 Mirri's Guile

Carpets allow you to blank spell Pierces and Dazes while allowing you to set up combo turns with multiple business spells, which involve setup via Past in Flames, Noxious Revival, and Mirri's Guile. Past in Flames and Carpet of Flowers work wonders together as it gives you 2 business spells for the price of one provided you have a EtW or Reforge in your graveyard. Autumn's Veil can protect the entire combo turn, especially from stuff like Flusterstorm that Pyroblast cannot. It can also occasionally draw out multiple countermagic if your opponent is aiming their countersuite at your rituals, in which case you can do something like respond to a Spell Pierce with a ritual, which gets Dazed, which both get 1'uped by Veil.

Mirri's Guile is kind of like a pseudo-5th Carpet of Flowers. It helps you rebuild effectively because a deck with more business (14 in the pre-board and 16 post-board) can take advantage of perpetual resources, namely Carpet of Flowers, to grind out the opponent and run them out of answers. Noxious Revival functions as a fantastic method of getting back a Belcher EoT to surprise an opponent, though it can also get back LEDs for activations, or obviously the low-investment Miracle combo turn with Reforge the Soul, as well as get you a protection spell or stop the opponent from playing Surgical Extraction on a key spell.

Pyroblast shouldn't need much explanation. I'd think its the next best thing to Autumn's Veil as a protection spell.

In regards to the Burning Wish board being able to answer hate and provide flexibility... I rarely see a Belcher player beat a resolved Chalice @ 1 or a hatebear, or a Leyline, etc. It just doesn't happen as often as we'd like to believe. I think its best to race decks that try shit like that and instead forgo the marginal utility of Burning Wish (its a way better card in TES imo) and make room in the board for a legitimate sideboard plan. What are thoughts on this approach?

GoboLord
05-16-2012, 07:13 AM
Hey guys,

first of all I want to say that I'm amazed by the friendly tone in this threat. It gives your discussions a really comfortable atmosphere!

Second, I want to thank you for the recent discussions. I'm planning on picking this deck up in some near future and the points you discussed (especially about ISMs) were really helpful.

I'll write a report for about the next tourney I attend with Belcher.

On a different note:
I wonder why most people cut Street Wraith to replace it with Gitaxian Probe.
I myself would cut Manamorphose for Probes, and leave the Ghosts in there. This reduces the deck to 52 cards virtually.
I know that manamorphose gives +1 storm, whil SWs don't, but then again, you can't just cycle manamorphosis in situation where you are unsure wether or not you can go off. I mean: the manafixing abilty never made a difference to me, while blindly cycling into IMS is a common move of mine. SWs do this job better than Morphosis.
Any point that I'm missing here?

Dravus Mallinard
05-16-2012, 10:50 AM
I`m interesting to know how is the SB plan of this deck... how do you guys board in and out on the most dificult matches??

GoldenCid
05-17-2012, 10:41 PM
I wanna talk about sideboarding against burn. G1 is almost unwinneable for them but g2 they oftenly side in Trap. A. veil is useless against it and the bee is a joke for burn and their sparks. So, REB is the only way out?

Ziveeman
05-17-2012, 11:55 PM
I would only board in Pyroblast in once I lose to Mindbreak Trap in Game 2. I'm not sure if it's not worth boarding in Pyroblast on the off-chance that they may have it.

Though I did lose to a burn player who mulled to three and his opening was Mountain, Mindbreak Trap, Pyrostatic Pillar...ouch.

SBGpinas
06-03-2012, 10:52 PM
Belcher made the Top 8 at SCG Open: Columbus:

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/120603_columbus.html

Too bad he lost in the quarterfinals. Still, it is a pretty interesting list.

The list played is as follows:

Artifacts
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
4 Tinder Wall

Instants
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Pyretic Ritual

Sorceries
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame

Lands
1 Taiga

Sideboard:
15 Island <---- Pro!

dontbiteitholmes
06-04-2012, 01:26 AM
Been working on a new take on Belcher using Reforge the Soul. After playing in some events I feel the deck is ready for release. Since the deck plays significantly different than traditional Belcher I've decided to make a new thread instead of partially derailing this one. That thread can be found here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23935-Flames-Belcher

DarkAkuma
06-04-2012, 02:57 AM
Belcher made the Top 8 at SCG Open: Columbus:

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/120603_columbus.html

Too bad he lost in the quarterfinals. Still, it is a pretty interesting list.

Interesting is a understatement.

The guy must have mulliganed like crazy, and got some good match ups/luck.

To sum it up, 0 Burning Wishes, 0 Seething Songs, -1 LED, a few older includes that seem to have been deemed sub-optimal in recent builds, and whats obviously a sideboard that was just padded to make the deck legal. I can only conclude it was slapped together near last minute with a limited card pool. Or maybe he was making a statement. =/

Whatever the reasons, kudos to him. Heck, it shows the viability the deck still has. I just very recently started playing again after not playing since '08 and was thinking even in top form this deck may no longer be as viable as it was back then. Gives me further reason to keep the deck together I guess.

SBGpinas
06-04-2012, 09:34 AM
Interesting is a understatement.

The guy must have mulliganed like crazy, and got some good match ups/luck.

To sum it up, 0 Burning Wishes, 0 Seething Songs, -1 LED, a few older includes that seem to have been deemed sub-optimal in recent builds, and whats obviously a sideboard that was just padded to make the deck legal. I can only conclude it was slapped together near last minute with a limited card pool. Or maybe he was making a statement. =/

Whatever the reasons, kudos to him. Heck, it shows the viability the deck still has. I just very recently started playing again after not playing since '08 and was thinking even in top form this deck may no longer be as viable as it was back then. Gives me further reason to keep the deck together I guess.

actually, if we look at one of the featured match reports, there was another person running a similar list.

it makes me think that this was not just a deck put together at the last minute, but something that actually had some thought put into it. would be great if these guys shed some light into why the deck was built as such.

zmattk
06-04-2012, 10:30 AM
actually, if we look at one of the featured match reports, there was another person running a similar list.

it makes me think that this was not just a deck put together at the last minute, but something that actually had some thought put into it. would be great if these guys shed some light into why the deck was built as such.

I don't think much thought could have gone into a sideboard of 15 island.

SBGpinas
06-04-2012, 10:38 AM
I don't think much thought could have gone into a sideboard of 15 island.

lol i walked right into that one didn't i?

obviously, i meant the main-deck choices

zmattk
06-04-2012, 01:26 PM
lol i walked right into that one didn't i?

obviously, i meant the main-deck choices

Well there's a few things you can take from it. He went from 11 ways to go off on turn 1 to 8. That reduces the chance of going off turn 1 from around 77 % to about 65 %. I haven't done the math on what the additional card draw adds but I would never really feel comfortable keeping a hand with no business and hope that my draws lands me something.

Even with the lack of Burning Wish, there's no excuse to not have a sideboard. And if he was testing a new build without Burning Wish I'm sure he would have also tested a sideboard. For this reason, I do not think this was something planned. It was more than likely a last minute throw together deck.

feline
06-04-2012, 06:14 PM
That is the power of the Glass Cannon!

It's such a "I'm going to kill you as fast as possible, so fast, that my answer to post sideboard games, is to just kill you as fast as possible!" Gotta love those 15 islands! no other deck can say it's so hellbent on such a strategy that they can actually pull it off enough to just say "sideboard? who needs a sideboard when they're dead!"

JACO
06-05-2012, 12:13 AM
Geoff did an AMA on Reddit about the deck today here:
http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/ukdir/i_played_belcher_at_the_legacy_scg_open_in/

The build was based on Matt Hazard's list from GenCon Legacy Champs last year.

dontbiteitholmes
06-05-2012, 12:26 AM
Well there's a few things you can take from it. He went from 11 ways to go off on turn 1 to 8. That reduces the chance of going off turn 1 from around 77 % to about 65 %. I haven't done the math on what the additional card draw adds but I would never really feel comfortable keeping a hand with no business and hope that my draws lands me something.

Even with the lack of Burning Wish, there's no excuse to not have a sideboard. And if he was testing a new build without Burning Wish I'm sure he would have also tested a sideboard. For this reason, I do not think this was something planned. It was more than likely a last minute throw together deck.

Agreed, at the very least if he wanted to play without Burning Wish MD he could have built a SB with 4x Burning Wish and silver bullets and just SB'd out the weaker cards and 1x EtW for Wishes in matchups where he might have needed the help. Obviously there is no good reason to run no SB, but it is funny he top 8'd.

feline
06-05-2012, 02:11 AM
I see what he did there, 4 gitaxian probe, 4 manamorphose, 4 street wraith, its like he's running a 48 card deck, and with 4 belcher & 4 empty the warrens, that's 1 in 6 cards (out of those 48) being a kill condition.

SBGpinas
06-06-2012, 10:06 PM
I see what he did there, 4 gitaxian probe, 4 manamorphose, 4 street wraith, its like he's running a 48 card deck, and with 4 belcher & 4 empty the warrens, that's 1 in 6 cards (out of those 48) being a kill condition.

Well, a wish build with 4 probe 4 manamorphose and 11 kill conditions (4 wish, 4 belcher, 3 EtW) is like a 52 card deck, with around 1 in 5 cards being a kill cond.

It's hard to say which one has a higher % of an early combo turn just by looking at the math. Anyone knowledgeable in statistics can lend a hand? lol

DarkAkuma
06-07-2012, 01:50 AM
I don't even think it should be seen like that. Even with 12 cantrips, the EtW, Belcher or BWish is what I want to see in my opening hand. I don't want to hope to draw into one. The cantrips being included to sudo thin the deck for mana spells is all their useful for.

Counting on using a cantrip to draw into a kill condition is going to be a waste of a card, turn, and storm most of the time.

If you're on the play with no kill condition in your hand, I think the odds of drawing into a kill condition with a cantrip, even if your playing a full 11 is only 23.4% (2nd draw 23.9%, 3rd draw 24.4%). Or with 8 kill conditions its 17% (2nd draw 17.39%, 3rd draw 17.7%). Planning to draw into your kill condition is just a poor plan even with a reasonable max of 3 cantrips in your opening hand.

Honestly, while running the limited version of the deck was a very niffty accomplishment, I just don't easily see it being more optimal in any way. The best reason to play it is probably just cause you don't have 4x BWish yet or are missing some key silver bullets for your meta game. Or maybe if you wanted to use a transitional sideboard of some sort.

AriLax
06-07-2012, 07:39 PM
Dude had a point. 11 win cons is probably too many when you want exactly one per hand. I dont think theres a card I want over the 11th main, but I am very comfortable boarding out 1-2 Wish when I want Pyros.

jrw1985
06-08-2012, 12:00 AM
Belcher made the Top 8 at SCG Open: Columbus:

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/120603_columbus.html

Too bad he lost in the quarterfinals. Still, it is a pretty interesting list.

The list played is as follows:

Artifacts
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
4 Tinder Wall

Instants
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Pyretic Ritual

Sorceries
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame

Lands
1 Taiga

Sideboard:
15 Island <---- Pro!

Tournament report
I've toyed with the idea of playing Belcher for a along while, but I've been too infatuated with my Goblin deck to give anything else the time of day. Then I saw the above decklist with the baller sideboard, and I was inspired. I threw together the following list and brought it to my weekly legacy tourney.

Maindeck
Same as above

Sideboard
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Burning Wish
1 Hull Breach
1 Shattering Spree
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Pyroclasm
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Red Elemental Blast

R1 RUG Delver
G1 I won the roll but had to mull to 5 for a win condition. I don't mind mulling into oblivion to find some gas. In fact it's a skill I've honed pretty sharp while playing Goblins. Goblins lives and dies by its 1-drops, so mulling into a hand with Vial or Lackey is very important. I don't see this build of Belcher being any different. You have 8 cards in your 60 you need to mull to. Unfortunately for me my opponent had the Force and stopped me from hitting 4 mana for Empty the Warrens. L
G2 I sided in Xantid and REB and shaved off some random stuff. I mulled to 5 and my opponent mulled to a painful 6, but kept. I cast a T1 Xantid, which met a Force. My opponent missed his T1 land drop. I made 12 Goblins T2 or three and got there while he couldn't find more than 1 land off the top of his deck.
G3 I sided out the REBs since they seemed pretty bad on the draw. They actually seem pretty bad on the play too. Either way, I made kept my 7 and my opponent mulled to 5. I made 14 goblins T1 (probably a mistake, prolly shoulda only played 12 and saved a ritual as a backup plan) and won.
1-0

R2 Zoo
G1 He leads with Wild Nacatl. I T1 12 Goblins. W
G2 I side in 3 Burning Wish and 1 LED and take out 4 Street Wraiths. Did you catch the mistake I just made? I needed to side out 3 Wraiths and 1 EtW for my sneaky mini-Wish sideboard plan to work. Oh well. I realized this as I draw and keep my opening 7. Then I Belch him for 100 T1. Whatchagonnado?
2-0

R3 Maverick
G1 I'm on the play and keep my 7. I Probe him. He has Thalia in hand and I have Belcher but not enough to activate it, so I play a bunch of spells and a few permanent mana sources and drop the Belcher, needing only 1 more mana source to activate it. He plays Thalia T2. I rip an LED and Belch. W.
G2 I once again side in 3 Burning Wish, 1 LED, and once again I forget to side out 1 EtW as a wish target. I realize this when I see my opening 7 that has LED, 5 mana sources, and Wish. Fuck me, I fucked up. Obviously I can't keep this hand since it does nothing. I could have cast EtW for 18 gobbos T1 with that hand had I sided correctly. That's the ideal scenario against Maverick. They have 0 answer for that. None. So I mull to 4 and keep a hand with EtW, make 8 gobbos T1 as an answer to his T1 Mom. T2 he plays Mom and Heirarch. T2 I attack for 8 and he takes it. T3 he does nothing plays Jitte but can't Equip. i attack, he block 1 goblin with a red protected Mom and goes down to 5. His turn he fetches down to 4 life, equips Jitte, but makes a huge mistake by not attacking. My turn I attack for 7, he blocks three and says he'll gain two life. I say, "Uh, you mean you're dead?" and he looks at his life and scoops. Mull to 4 on the draw and 8 gobbos got there. These non-blue decks have 0 answers to T1 goblin tokens, even relatively small Storm EtWs are too much for them.
3-0

R4 Maverick
G1 T1 Belch on the Draw
G2 T1 Belch on the Draw
4-0


Let me say this about Belcher: It is incredibly well positioned right now. There was a time and a place when Zoo was so dominant that everyone and their mother played Engineered Explosives in their SB. Those days are long gone. There was a time that every U deck played 8 free counters, and every deck with KotR had FoW. Not anymore. Now the format is ruled by Maverick, RUG, and slow SnT Combo. 1 of those MUs is a pushover. 1 is too Counter-light to really interact. And the third is aggressive enough to push the Really control oriented U decks out of the metagame. Belcher seems incredibly well positioned right now.

Let me also say this: By God, is this deck no fun to play. Almost no interactions. No decisions to make after T1. I'm not a fan of playing this deck. But I might have to play it the next time a big-value tourney comes around. It seems like a good way to cake walk to the top-8.

So, yeah, T1 kills are totally a thing.

soiber2000
06-08-2012, 09:58 AM
The list looks good, but you didn't fight many blue decks. I mean, the last time I took the deck to a tournament I played against seven out of seven blue decks. Won 4, but it is obviously impossible to fight against that. If you go to a big tournament and you come across many blue decks, chances of top8ing are very low.

Anyway, congratulations on the result and I like your list with burning wish in the sideboard.

JACO
06-08-2012, 12:23 PM
Geoff Moes, the Belcher player who Top 8'd Columbus with the 15 Revised Islands in his sideboard, has written a tournament report for Eternal Central. You can peep it here:
http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2807

OurSerratedDust
06-08-2012, 11:18 PM
Thanks for the link, Jaco. I love belcher reports.

yankeedave
06-11-2012, 10:17 AM
Thanks for the link, Jaco. I love belcher reports.

R1: Killed him, he had FOW;killed me, killed him.
R2: FOW, killed him, FOW
R3: Killed him, killed him.
R4: FOW both games, killed me x2
R5: Killed him, Killed him.

How's that? :D

Vacrix
06-11-2012, 06:13 PM
R1: Killed him, he had FOW;killed me, killed him.
R2: FOW, killed him, FOW
R3: Killed him, killed him.
R4: FOW both games, killed me x2
R5: Killed him, Killed him.

How's that? :D
Concise, hilarious, and factual. I like it.

GoldenCid
06-17-2012, 11:22 AM
Concise, hilarious, and factual. I like it.

Exactly. Belcher is just like that you win or loose fastly even if your opo has FoW you are not condemned to loose he MUST to use it very wisely for not be smashed!
How ever i'm not agree about cutting Burning Wish.

OurSerratedDust
06-17-2012, 06:51 PM
I tried boarding out my wishes and some LEDs against blue, and it has been extremely solid for me. Burning wish is terrible against blue, and without it, LEDs aren't THAT good anyways. I'm not sure I'm ready to try getting rid of them all together though.

TerribleTim68
06-18-2012, 11:16 AM
So just curious what a SB for that Wish-less build might look like, anyone got some ideas?

jrw1985
06-18-2012, 11:39 AM
So just curious what a SB for that Wish-less build might look like, anyone got some ideas?

I ran Belcher at a small tourney a few weeks ago. I played the No- Wish MD, and I played the following SB:

1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Burning Wish
1 Hull Breach
1 Shattering Spree
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Pyroclasm
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Red Elemental Blast

It worked really well. I brought in the Burning Wish against decks I figured would side in permanent-based hate and I had a micro Wish-board in there. Then I had Xantid and REB for FoW. Really simple. Just don't do what I did and actually remember to side out 1 Empty the Warrens when you side in the Wishes.

Vacrix
06-18-2012, 12:21 PM
How ever i'm not agree about cutting Burning Wish.
I tried playing 4 maindeck Reforge the Soul with 2 post-board Mirri's Guile. It wasn't bad cause you can use Mirri's Guile to find your post-board protection spells, as well as set up a Miracle line of play. Honestly, I think that this version of Belcher needs to be explored more. For example...

Business:
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Belcher
3 Reforge the Soul

With that kind of business, you can avoid playing Burning Wish, which honestly is a good business spell but it takes up so much space in your board that you can't effectively do anything against blue decks except hope you get lucky and they don't get lucky. If they draw 2 counterspells, your single protection spell isn't going to do shit. Post-board you could play something like this

SB
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Autumn's Veil
2 REB
2 Blood Moon
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Reforge the Soul

With this board, you have 6 protection spells, which I think is the right amount. Carpet helps you to have IMS so that you can board some of them out to play these other cards. Honestly, I'd board out Seething Song post-board if you have Carpet simply because Song is what they usually go for with their counter and then you lose the rest of your hand. Also, Chrome Mox and 4 Land Grants isn't enough to play any sort of grind game. Carpet ensures that you can explode out of no where. Mirri's Guile helps you to set up kinda like a different version of Carpet. It will help you find one of your protection spells, acceleration, business, IMS, etc. whatever you need, and will synergize with Land Grants to make them better than useless after you've already played your Taiga with one of them. Veil protects the whole turn and is easily the best protection spell this deck can play because you can play it early to make them turn on your Carpet, play it in response to a counterspell forcing them to waste 2 countermagic else you have an entire protected turn. Its also quite good with Reforge the Soul as they will draw a new 7. Also, Reforge should be nuts in the post-board with Mirri's Guile. Blood Moon helps you to grind against them, though its not too good with Carpet of Flowers. Perhaps +2 Blood Moon effects and a +2 other cards might be better (perhaps Recross the Paths). Either way, I think that none BW lists don't get nearly enough attention. BW saps all of your post-board potential with situations that rarely happen. BW usually grabs EtW, 9 times out of 10. The other 1/10 of the time, how much better is that BW line of play then what you might play in the post-board to fight against blue?

TerribleTim68
06-18-2012, 12:46 PM
I ran Belcher at a small tourney a few weeks ago. I played the No- Wish MD, and I played the following SB:

1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Burning Wish
1 Hull Breach
1 Shattering Spree
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Pyroclasm
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Red Elemental Blast

It worked really well. I brought in the Burning Wish against decks I figured would side in permanent-based hate and I had a micro Wish-board in there. Then I had Xantid and REB for FoW. Really simple. Just don't do what I did and actually remember to side out 1 Empty the Warrens when you side in the Wishes.

thanks for the list, I was thinking something along the same lines. So what is the 4th LeD for, just when you crack a Wish?

feline
06-19-2012, 11:58 AM
One thing that may or may not be of note, in a "wishless" build, like the one that ran 15 island lol, the deck was essentially 48 cards, via 4 manamorphose, 4 street wraith, 4 gitaxian probe as the last 12.

TerribleTim68
06-19-2012, 12:29 PM
Oh no, it's of pretty big note. :wink:

jrw1985
06-19-2012, 01:15 PM
thanks for the list, I was thinking something along the same lines. So what is the 4th LeD for, just when you crack a Wish?

Yep. 4 LED don't really do anything except build storm and activate Belcher in the MD, so there's not much reason to play a 4th MD. Bring in the 4th when you bring in Wishes (should probably be 4 Wishes too, I just couldn't find my 4th the day of that tourney).

Koby
06-19-2012, 01:17 PM
@Vacrix
I'm intrigued by your Reforge the Soul build for Belcher w/o Burning Wish. Mostly, it's the transformational sideboard against Blue that makes it appealing. Can you share your list? I'd like to put it together for a gauntlet this week.

Vacrix
06-19-2012, 01:56 PM
I put down the list due to finals but I'll do some testing today and fine tune the list I already had. Its pretty standard though if you think about it. Most of the parts of Belcher are not modular. The business count is often 11 so..
4 Belcher
4 Empty the Warrens
3 Reforge the Soul

And then the rest of the deck is classic Belcher. The thing, though, is that this version of Belcher might actually be better with 12 business spells. Reforge the Soul requires you to draw a business spell off the top 7 so its a little bit more demanding in terms of business; you can't just mulligan your 7 til you find a business spell. In that sense, I'm going to mostly test 11 vs. 12 business spells.

Also, its worth noting that LED still works with Reforge the Soul so LED doesn't necessarily get weaker by dropping Burning Wish. Also, Burning Wish makes any business spell automatically cost +2 so you go from your avg. business spells being
Belcher --> 7 (or 4 to cast, and wait on the activation for pass the turn plays)
Empty the Warrens --> 4 (though you are often floating more mana than you need)
Burning Wish --> 6 (often you are just playing Empty the Warrens)

So with:
4 Belcher (7)
4 Burning Wish (6)
3 Empty the Warrens (4)

ie. the Classic Belcher business suite, you avg. business mana investment is 5.81 mana.

With my suggested BW-less variation business suite:
4 Belcher (7)
4 Empty the Warrens (4)
3 Reforge the Soul (5)

The avg. business investment is 5.3 mana. So its a bit less.

Also, 4 maindeck Empty the Warrens is a bit safer against control and Reforge the Soul allows you to rebuild from nothing rather quickly, especially if you can utilize Mirri's Guile. Granted, I'm porting a lot of this SB strategy from Pact Spanish Inquisition, but I think that post-board Blood Moons gives you more business spells for the grind game. Also, if the opponent wants to play around that, they are going to want to fetch basic Islands. If they don't, then Carpet might not work, but they have no mana to work with. So no Spell Pierce, no Flusterstorm, no Daze, no Counterspell. PulpFiction played MAINDECK Bloodmoon like a boss a while back and did quite well if I recall. Pulled from the storm boards:


I took this deck to my local tournament and made it to the finals, but lost out in the final match :( Here is the list I played followed by a very brief summary:

4x Belcher
3x EtW
4x Burning Wish
4x Blood Moon

4x ESG
4x SSG
4x Tinder Wall
4x Street Wraith

4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
4x Desperate Ritual
4x LED
4x Petal
4x Mox
4x Land Grant
1x Taiga

SB
4x Xantid Swarm
3x Shattering Spree
3x Serum Powder

Wish Targets
1x EtW
1x Telemin Performance
1x Shattering Spree
1x Reverent Silence
1x Pyroclasm

Round 1 - UG Survival Madness w/ Force and Daze with Chill in the board.
G1 - I ask if he has a Force, turn 1 Empty for 14 on the play beats most decks in the format!
G2 - I board in Swarms for Blood Moons and resolve a Swarm on turn 1. He drops Chill on turn 2 which is just sickening, as my has has Rite, Desperate and Seething Song. No matter though, a turn before I die I draw my last initial mana source and Belch him out with Xantid protection!

Round 2 - Zoo
G1 - Turn 1 Belcher, turn 2 activate.
G2 - Turn 1 Empty for 12 ... he loses is very short order.

Round 3 - Glimpse Elves
G1 - Turn 1 Belcher Activate with Land Grant in hand!
G2 - Turn 1 Empty for 12 easily gets there.

Round 4 - ID

Round 5 - ID

Round 6 - Reanimator
G1 - Turn 1 Moon but he has 2/3 Petals in his deck ... Iona on red on turn 2.
G2 - Both mull to 6, I Empty for 8 turn 1, run into Force, but my 6 goblins get there!
G3 - I mull to 5 and he mulls to 3! This was sick. I win on turn 3 after I rip Belcher off the top on turn 2 and activate it turn 3!

Round 7 - Uwb CB Weird Stuff
G1 - Turn 1 Moon and I proceed to draw pure fucking shit then get locked out of the game after he draws both his basic islands and casts CB then Jace.
G2 - Turn 1 Swarm, turn 4 Belcher + LED.
G3 - Turn 1 Moon locks him out this time. I Ritual out a SSG and he gets there in 8 turns! Moon was pure devastation in this matchup.

Round 8 - Asshole piece of shit who played out the finals at 2:00 A.M. on a wednesday night: UWg Probasco CB garbage
G1 - He gets a nuts draw and I mull down to 5 since I am unable to find an IMS or a wincon.
G2 - My opening hand is: 2x ESG, Tinder Wall, Desperate Ritual, Rite of Flame, Empty the Warrens, Petal. He keeps his opening 7 so I know he has Force, I play out Petal, Wall, sac wall and decide to cast Desperate Ritual first since if that gets countered I save Rite for another day, it resolves, I play Rite, he Forces, double ESG into Empty for 12, GG.
G3 - I mull to 6, he keeps his opening 7 yet again, he just has an answer for everything I do. The CB shit normally doesn't run this good, but his deck was just loving him. I EtW on turn 2 for 8. They get in a swing before he plays Trinket Mage fetching EE. He then plays: CB, Top on turn 4, Goyf on turn 5, another Goyf on turn 6. Sad times :(

I have to say, Blood Moon was .... AWESOME! The matchups where it was worthless it is still better than Manamorphose in every way. Moon adds the same amount of mana that Manamorphose does and gives you 15 bombs instead of 11. Extra storm that Manamorphose adds does not make up for how amazing this card is when you have to mulligan and open up that sick had with 2x rituals and the Burning Wish you can't possibly cast. This list is just stupid fast and is certainly the most consistent Belcher list I have ever tested. The board was great. Serum Powder is there for the matchups you have to mull really hard for a Belcher kill, or is just better than Moon, Wraith, or Seething Song (always sided out 3 in the blue matchups and brought in Powder).

I tried siding in the 4th EtW in the CB matchups so I can keep a hand without Swarm and Powder gives me the ability to mulliigan aggressively into it. I am not sure if this is the correct play but, it seemed to work out pretty well. I have has such bad experience with BW in the past against CB because it forces you to go all-in. I really want to replace Telemin Performance with some kind of sorcery that makes a flying token of some kind so that card isn't totally worthless. I just really like EtW for playing into Force and defying that card and not making me keep marginal hands with Swarm in them.

Telemin Performance was not played but I didn't play against a single combo deck or Garden. I still really like Telemin Performance, especially against Reanimator, that would be cool as hell and most likely better than Goblin tokens that attack once and meet Blazing Archon a turn later; your chances of hitting an Iona are quite good! Thoughts, comments?



EDIT:
On the topic of 11 vs 12 business suite in the Reforge lists. More copies of Reforge also means more "LOL MIRACLES" wins.

DarkAkuma
06-19-2012, 06:51 PM
LED should be left alone in a wishless/RtS build. 3 Extra mana on that new seven could be very useful.

I'd also like to point out that when running Reforge the Soul, Tendrils of Agony becomes a viable kill condition again for a wish board as you should have an easier time getting to a spell count of 10+. Maybe with a kill condition setup like 4xBelcher 4xWish 4xRtS. Pre or Post board. In theory that setup should allow for the most t1-2 kills, reducing your opponents options he has against you when relying on the horde of 1/1's over a few turns.

I might even go as far as to modify an old Belcher list like this.

1 [B] Taiga
1 [B] Bayou

3 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [AVR] Reforge the Soul
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [B] Dark Ritual
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [SHM] Manamorphose

Sideboard:
EtW, Tendrils, etc

I just posted this list to help be constructive. It may not be the direction the deck needs to go. In fact modifying the classic list I used as a base with some of the modern flavors wasn't as easy as I hoped. I wanted to include Wild Cantor for additional mana fixing for black, but Manamorphose should be enough of a replacement. I had to cut Street Wraith as well. This is 61 cards. A RtS could go to the board as a wish target, but I tend to agree with Vacrix that when using RtS, playing 4 would be more optimal so as not to get hosed as often by not drawing into something. Even without splashing for black with bayou and and Dark Ritual, a more common modern list may be able to sustain a Tendrils kill just fine with Petals, LEDs and Manamorphose.

Anyway. I like seeing this deck with more options available now. It could help it's versatility against hate, and in turn increase its populatiry.

andy
06-19-2012, 07:26 PM
I don't think Reforge the Soul should replace Burning Wish in Belcher. I think it should replace a couple Goblin Charbelcher and Empty the Warrens. Reforge the Soul makes it possible to somewhat reliably Wish for Tendrils of Agony with high enough storm, which is a trick we couldn't really do before. I've been testing the following:

Business:
4 Burning Wish
3 Reforge the Soul
2 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Empty the Warrens

Mana:
4 Land Grant
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Tinder Wall
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Rite of Flame
4 Manamorphose

Land
1 Taiga

Sideboard
4 Xantid Swarm
2 Empty the Warrens
2 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Pyroclasm
1 Hull Breach
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree

I don't even think I had Xantid Swarm in the SB, I just can't remember what I was running there. Basically, with the old Belcher list, I never found that siding in Swarms and REBs did anything. I figured that I'd have to side out Reforge the Soul against control so as not to give them a new hand, and my plan was to transform back to old Belcher and try to race. Manamorphose, Lion's Eye Diamond, and Lotus Petal were enough to reliably get BB when I wanted to go for a Tendrils of Agony win.

I will mention three things I noticed when testing this version of Belcher:

1) I still think 11 business is the right number. 11 maximizes the probability of having exactly 1 business in the opening hand (12 has a slightly lower chance of exactly 1 and a slightly higher chance of exactly 2). With Reforge the Soul, you really don't want to see any other business in your opening hand; it would greatly reduce the chance of hitting business when you case Reforge. (Also, any other business in your hand is not mana in your hand, and you want to have some mana floating when you Reforge.)

2) You have to play slightly differently to maximize your chances of actually Miracle-ing Reforge. E.g., with the old list, if I had a Gitaxian Probe in hand, it was always my leading play. There was never any reason to hold it back, and it gave me the most possible information to go forward. But with Reforge in the deck, it might be more correct to play out non-instant mana sources first, just in case a Probe (or Manamorphose, or a Reforge that is in your starting 7) hits a Miracle Reforge.

3) This is obviously rare, but if you cast Reforge from your opening 7 and Miracle topdeck a second Reforge:
a) The Miracle trigger goes on the stack.
b) You finish drawing 7 from the first Reforge.
c) You can respond to the trigger with any instant-speed mana you drew.
d) Then you can choose to pay for the new Reforge.
So it doesn't completely waste the 7 you drew from the first Reforge, and it probably sets you up for something bonkers with a third set of 7 cards.

TerribleTim68
06-21-2012, 12:54 PM
Ok, so I ran this deck at last night's Legacy tourney. Basically the same list that top-8ed Columbus (only with a real sideboard) -

Artifacts
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
4 Tinder Wall
Instants
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Pyretic Ritual
Sorceries
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
Lands
1 Taiga

My Sideboard:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Pyroblast
1 ReB
3 Cave-In
3 I can't recall what I did here

Report :

Round 1 vs Elf-Combo:
Game 1 - I wasn't too super concerned about this matchup, until my deck started being stupid. I kept a hand with 2 Probes and a Wraith thinking I could draw into some business but did not. I finally pulled off a lethal Belch on something like turn 6 since he was floundering about almost as badly as me. Note to self, think harder about your opening 7. :wink:
Game 2 - A bit of the same, we both floundered about a little until I ran out a Belcher on turn 3. I had to wait until turn 4 to activate. His turn 4 took a very long time as he knew his chances were slim if I got to untap, and that's how it played out.
(1-0)

Round 2 vs RUG Delver:
Game 1 - I hate this matchup no matter what I'm playing, it just never goes well for me. This time he led with Volcanic-Delver-Go. I opened up with turn 1 Empty for 12 Goblins, he scooped.
Game 2 - Sideboard the blue hate! I brought in all the Blasts and the Swarms, dropping the Probes, Wraiths and a single Land Grant. My opening 7 was good but no SB cards. He went first with Volcanic-Go. I opened up with turn 1 Belcher and met a FoW. It was all downhill from there.
Game 3 - Again, no SB cards in my opening 7 but a decent draw so I kept. My turn 1 Belcher made the table but I had no activation yet. My turn 2 activation was met with a Stifle, as was my turn 3 activation. I then ran out of mana to activate it, floundered around until his Lavamancer went the distance. Did I mention I hate this matchup? :tongue:
(1-1)

Round 3 vs High Tide:
Game 1 - Oh boy, more FoWs! :mad: My turn 1 Belcher was met by that lovely blue card that says "Die Combo Decks" on it. He then proceeded to counter everything I tried to do until he could combo off.
Game 2 - SB much the same as before, draw no SB cards, lose horribly to many, many counterspells.
(1-2)

Round 4 vs Mono White Thing:
Game 1 - I stuck it out because how else do you get to play the deck? I read somewhere that dropping doesn't allow you to learn how to play better. Besides, this guy didn't have FoWs. :tongue: He goes first and opens with turn 1 Aether Vial off a Cavern of Souls. I guess he hates counters as much as me (when I'm not playing them). :eek: So I opened up with a turn 1 Belch for lethal. Moving on!
Game 2 - He opens with double Leyline and I flounder a bit until he finally bashes my head in with some little dude and 2 swords on it (1 may have been a Jitte, I don't recall).
Game 3 - I open up on the play with a turn 1 Empty for 10 Goblins. He sadly looks at his Leyline and scoops.
(2-2)

In the end I see just how fragile the deck is. Blue decks pretty much just rolled me. Not drawing ANY of my SB cards wasn't good either. But I'm not convinced it would have mattered anyway. You spend so much effort and cards to do your one thing and a well timed Counterspell just kills you, then it takes too long to reload while they reload more counters waiting on your next attempt.

andy
06-21-2012, 02:00 PM
until my deck started being stupid. I kept a hand with 2 Probes and a Wraith thinking I could draw into some business but did not
For what it's worth, if you're playing 8 business and you keep hand with 0 business and 3 cantrips, the probability of not drawing any business in your 3 cantrip draws is approximately 60%. (I haven't taken the time to account for the probability of drawing into more cantrips, but I would guess even then it's worse than a coin flip.) That's why it's hard to judge mulligan decisions when you load up your deck with cantrips instead of business.

TerribleTim68
06-21-2012, 02:30 PM
A few observations on this build -
I wasn't overly impressed with the Probes and Wraiths to be honest. The Probes seemed pointless since you can't do anything about what you see anyway. So basically they say "Pay two life, draw a card" (just like the Wraiths) on them and I'm not sure that was worth it. I could consider swapping the 4 Probes for Wishes and go that route but if I did that I would drop the Wraiths as well since they wouldn't make much sense alone.

I don't know, in the end I liked my Hive Mind deck much better anyway. I like TES over this one too, so there's that. At least with Hive Mind you have FoW and Blue Pacts and TES has discard and Chant to get around FoW. This deck really seems to have nothing against blue in general. Just my thoughts.

GoldenCid
06-21-2012, 09:25 PM
In the end I see just how fragile the deck is. Blue decks pretty much just rolled me.

It's not fragile just has high chances to loose against counter walls.