[Deck] Belcher

[Vacrix]

It's not fragile just has high chances to loose against counter walls.
Fragile usually refers to the decks matchup against countermagic, hence the term glass house. Volatile refers to how well it combos.

[TerribleTim68]

Fragile usually refers to the decks matchup against countermagic, hence the term glass house. Volatile refers to how well it combos.

That's exactly what I meant. It is highly volatile! But also highly fragile. My meta has a lot of blue, so without a way to better those odds with this deck, I have to go back to playing blue myself. Unless I can get some help tuning to beat blue.

[Vacrix]

I've been trying to push Belcher players toward BW-less lists that way a few of us could start play testing it to find a good sideboard for the U matchups. Seriously 6-8 sideboard cards isn't enough. 15, however, can certainly make a huge difference. Carpet of Flowers, extra business, Bloodmoons, Autumn's Veil, etc. Also, its not like that is a traditional Belcher board either so nobody will see it coming. Belcher that can grind? Bitches be shittn there pants.

[ahg113]

HOWDY FOLKS!

I've been lurking the boards for a month or so. Finally put a deck together and took it to a little tourney about 2 weekends ago. I did horribly, and not because my math game is weak. There was way more blue than I was expecting- 1 UW Landstill, 1 4 color Landstill, 1 U/R Delver. I also lost a mirror match that was epic fun, and I beat-up on an Affinity deck (living the dream of burning wish into Shattering Spree his board, slow play to a win.)

I played this- and generally liked it except for Past in Flames was never a worthwhile card (MD or SB), and using the Reforge the Soul helped a few control players unfortunately restock answers to my threats...


4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Rite of Flame
4 Land Grant
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
1 Taiga

Side-Board
4 Autumn's Veil
1 Shattering Spree
1 Hull Breach
1 Reverent Silence
1 Telemin Performance
1 Pyroclasm
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony


Never used Tendrils; Gitaxian Probe gave me info I did nothing with; Seething Song is a red flag to ruin my day, but great when resolved; did use Telemin Performance against the UW Landstill deck and it would've been awesome had he not sided in Meddling Mage :( ; the Autumn's Veil would've been better as Xanthid Swarm (not nearly as much removal as I had expected there to be...) and only four cards to react to blue was not nearly enough, the Autumn's Veil couldn't be counted to protect anything and is useless against Stifle. A few games I could've won had it not been for Stifle (hypothetically.)

It was fun to play, the games drew out longer than I expected more often than not, blue decks take forever to kill and I'm not one to just quit. And I hate Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

Interested in a wishless build with a better sideboard (non- Tropical Island / Personal Tutor build). Not totally sold on RtS, but it was pretty decent more often than not, I just wouldn't consider it a "business" spell, as it's not guaranteed to make a kill.

Just because the mirror match was fun- we were both at the bottom of the event, 1&3 - around 40 people or so.
The first game he put 18 goblins into play turn 1. I had a RtS so I played out mana then did that. Was one card short (stupid Chrome Mox) of firing off Belcher. From the new seven he drew, and his draw, he was able to cast Belcher and fire it on turn two. RtS backfired.
The second game I kept a slightly iffy hand, and expected to win on turn two, and he just fired his cannon on turn 1. I think it took about 6 minutes, including shuffling and counting storm triggers.

Keep up the fun and good work guys, I enjoy reading and learning from the group. Glass cannon go BOOM, indeed.

Cards on my poop list-
FoW, Stifle, Spell Pierece, Gitaxian Probe, Seething Song...

Want more of -
Defense Grid, Blood Moon, Carpet of Flowers, red blast

[Silent Requiem]

If you are looking for Wishless lists, has anyone put any serious effort into abusing Recross the Paths? It seems like a Doomsday in green for a deck like Belcher.

[Infinitium]

I did some tinkering after reforge the soul was spoiled (to replace the blue draw component), but couldn't come up with a good enough 7 that could beat permission. he fact that it could only make pass the turn piles by design kinda sucked too.

[rxavage]

If you are looking for Wishless lists, has anyone put any serious effort into abusing Recross the Paths? It seems like a Doomsday in green for a deck like Belcher.

I don't see how you reached that conclusion. It's a more expensive Land Grant without the drawback of revealing your hand.

[Silent Requiem]

I don't see how you reached that conclusion. It's a more expensive Land Grant without the drawback of revealing your hand.

The Oracle text (emphasis mine):


Reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a land card. Put that card onto the battlefield and the rest on the bottom of your library in any order. Clash with an opponent. If you win, return Recross the Paths to its owner's hand. (Each clashing player reveals the top card of his or her library, then puts that card on the top or bottom. A player wins if his or her card had a higher converted mana cost.)

If there are no lands in the deck, then you get to stack your deck (ala Doomsday). It doesn't even cost you a card, as you are guaranteed to win the clash if you want to (short of your opponent topdecking Emrakul, or the like).

No deck is better placed to abuse this card than Belcher.

[Ciberon]

And why would you want Doomsday in belcher?

[Silent Requiem]

And why would you want Doomsday in belcher?

:confused:

Well, I can imagine all sorts of reasons. But people were discussing wishless Belcher, so it seemed relevant.

Belcher with Burning Wish wins by floating 4 mana into a Burning Wish. Wish + Warrens = 6 mana.

Belcher with Uncross the Paths would win by floating 2-3 mana into a draw card. The floating mana is then used to cast a draw 4 or something similar. UtP plus Meditate (for example) = 6 mana, assuming the initial draw into Meditate comes from Gitaxian Probe, Street Wraith or Manamorphose.

Illustration: You stack your deck with Meditate, LED, LED, LED, some number of Gitaxian Probes (for however much extra storm you need), Belcher/Warrens/Tendrils. You draw Meditate with Gitaxian Probe/Manamorphose/whatever, and then cast it. You draw 3 LED and Gitaxian Probe. Play LEDs, cast Probe, cracking the LEDs, draw into your kill condition with 9 mana floating.

Absent disruption, resolving UtP with sufficient mana floating (it could even be less than three, depending on the draw engine used) instantly wins. Unlike BW, which wins next turn (except in builds using Tendrils, obviously), and is storm dependent (because it can't find Belcher).

Why is this awesome? Well, it's no more mana intensive than the play the deck is already making, but it also doesn't require you to clog up your sideboard with Wish targets, giving you an actual, you know, sideboard. Which was the point of discussing Wishless builds.

Equally, you don't need to lose your toolbox, because a singleton maindeck answer can effectively be tutored for with UtP (you just build your stack accordingly). There's a reason why DDFT is one of the best combo decks to play around hate.

It needs testing, obviously, but on paper it looks like it makes the deck faster (instant kills), better able to fight hate (finding maindeck answers game 1), better able to recover from a failed combo attempt (choosing your next few top-decks seems strong) and frees up sideboard space. If you don't see why these might be good things, I'm not sure what more I can usefully say.

[Infinitium]

@Requiem: Try page 65 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5712-Deck-Belcher/page65) of the thread. Just remember that the better RtP Piles uses Burning Wish (because BW -> Tendrils is cheaper than Belcher -> activate). It does allow you to cut EtW from the MD though.

[Silent Requiem]

@Requiem: Try page 65 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5712-Deck-Belcher/page65) of the thread. Just remember that the better RtP Piles uses Burning Wish (because BW -> Tendrils is cheaper than Belcher -> activate). It does allow you to cut EtW from the MD though.

Ah, I thought it had been mentioned before. After a half dozen posts of initial testing, though, nothing seems to have happened. The card seems to have been quietly dropped for no specific reason.

Of course, while a RtP pile could use Burning Wish, it doesn't have to. Doomsday uses Wish because it has a limit of five cards. RtP, on the other hand, does not, so a free draw spell (such as Gitaxian) followed by a kill condition does the same thing (ie, allow you to crack LED in response to something that will get you the win condition).

[Vacrix]

And why would you want Doomsday in belcher?
I've actually played with Recross the Paths. Its not bad but its not maindeck material either. Perhaps it would be good in the post-board after you've already hit your land. I've Belched creatures before with Leyline on the field, stacked my deck, and won with EtW before. Why not do the same thing but with Recross?

I don't think this idea has been explored at all; post-board Recross the Paths. Carpet of Flowers gives you more perpetual resources so hitting 3 mana shouldn't be difficult. I do it all the time in PSI to cast D4s but Recross doesn't have to hit triple black so its much easier to cast.

EDIT:

Perhaps in non-BW lists, ie. 4 Reforge, 4 EtW, 4 Belcher, 1 PiF as business..

Post-board -
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Autumn's Veil
2 Recross the Paths
3 Brainstorm
1 Meditate
1 Tropical Island

[ahg113]

11th place finish at SCG Open: Seattle. Wishless build, piloted by Quiton Ewing -

Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith

Instants
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Seething Song

Sorceries
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame

Lands
2 Stomping Ground

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Autumn's Veil
4 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction

While I don't understand the need for two lands, I do like this build a lot, because it's wishless. The sideboard, I think I'd change the Crypt's to Blood Moon, or something with broader applications. Against Dredge and Reanimate, I reckon we just need to kill them faster. I'm also liking the Goblin Bushwhacker, it's a cute play, but I think a worthwhile one. Makes the turn you EtW a win if it falls correctly.

I'm happy there was a Top 16 showing. Wishes seem to be on the way out, what are the other general thoughts?

Cheers,
have they banned blue yet?

[zmattk]

I wouldn't say wishes are on their way out. Some people like them others don't. I don't think having them or not having drastically improve consistency or make any bad matchups good. Both lists are still weak to counter magic.

Also a Wish build top 8'd the GP which I think is a bigger and more relevant event than the SCG open.

[ahg113]

Can you post the list and link... work firewall isn't a fan of WotC's websites. And I agree, the Grand Prix is a better example than SCG Seattle.

Cheers,
are you a wish fan? Would also like Carpet of Flowers in the SB.

[Ziveeman]

It's a pretty standard Belcher list:

1 Taiga
1 land

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
12 creatures

4 Burning Wish
4 Chrome Mox
4 Desperate Ritual
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Land Grant
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
47 other spells


Sideboard
1 Cave-In
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Hull Breach
4 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
4 Xantid Swarm
15 sideboard cards

This list got 32nd:

1 Taiga
1 land

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
12 creatures

4 Burning Wish
4 Chrome Mox
4 Desperate Ritual
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Land Grant
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
47 other spells


Sideboard
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Infernal Tutor
4 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reanimate
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
4 Xantid Swarm

[zmattk]

I play the standard wish list. The only thing I have different is I play 1 Bribery and 1 Reanimate in the sideboard. I found myself almost never using Infernal Tutor or Goblin War Strike. I also tried Diminishing Returns and Reforge the Soul in those slots and never really felt they were necessary nor fixed anything I needed them to fix. I'm using Bribery and Reanimate because wishing for tokens usually isn't good enough in those matches and doing something like Reforge or Diminishing Returns can give them counterspells. Also it's awesome to steal Griselbrand and just go off again.

[GoldenCid]

Congrats! A wise pilot and avoiding some match ups make belcher tier 1!!

[Vacrix]

I play the standard wish list. The only thing I have different is I play 1 Bribery and 1 Reanimate in the sideboard. I found myself almost never using Infernal Tutor or Goblin War Strike. I also tried Diminishing Returns and Reforge the Soul in those slots and never really felt they were necessary nor fixed anything I needed them to fix. I'm using Bribery and Reanimate because wishing for tokens usually isn't good enough in those matches and doing something like Reforge or Diminishing Returns can give them counterspells. Also it's awesome to steal Griselbrand and just go off again.
Its not just Dreturns/Reforge, War Strike, IT... the Wishboard is rarely used effectively for anything other than EtW. This is in part because you can't consistently expect to have a business spell in hand when you only play 11 to begin with. Thats why I keep pushing people to try the wishless lists. I really do think BW is on its way out. Until you can find a mana source with it and just run EtW/(sorcery ritual) in the board to take up a mere 2 slots, I don't think I would ever play BW. Its just EtW + 1R and its counterable vs. going up to 4 EtW copies maindeck and playing other business spells instead like Reforge the Soul, Spoils of the Vault. Hell I'd rather play Spoils of the Vault over BW if I can find 1 of 4 copies of EtW with it. You avg. 1 copy of EtW every 15 cards; I can't remember the last time Spoils killed me in testing.

[zmattk]

Its not just Dreturns/Reforge, War Strike, IT... the Wishboard is rarely used effectively for anything other than EtW. This is in part because you can't consistently expect to have a business spell in hand when you only play 11 to begin with. Thats why I keep pushing people to try the wishless lists. I really do think BW is on its way out. Until you can find a mana source with it and just run EtW/(sorcery ritual) in the board to take up a mere 2 slots, I don't think I would ever play BW. Its just EtW + 1R and its counterable vs. going up to 4 EtW copies maindeck and playing other business spells instead like Reforge the Soul, Spoils of the Vault. Hell I'd rather play Spoils of the Vault over BW if I can find 1 of 4 copies of EtW with it. You avg. 1 copy of EtW every 15 cards; I can't remember the last time Spoils killed me in testing.


My problem with the wishless build is that you reduce the amount of cards you can go off with which in turn reduces the likelihood of going off with your opening 7. I know that the draw cards fix some of that but I'd never be comfortable keeping a 7 without a win condition. I agree that Burning Wish is almost never used except for Empty the Warrens but I still feeFl having 7 copies of EtW is better than 4. And the added bonus of being able to wish for cards that destroy hate isn't completely irrelevant. Also I'm not sure how I feel about Spoils of the Vault. It seems risky, and although you can't really recall a time where you've killed yourself off of it doesn't mean it can't happen or won't happen. Also splashing black is awkward in this deck. Red and green are pretty necessary and black adds another land because I wouldn't want to count solely on Lotus Petal and Manamorphose to create black mana. I'm not saying wishless is a bad idea. I'm sure it works fine for whoever uses it but I just prefer th build with BW. Neither one has better game against blue decks IMO which is really our only weakness

[andy]

I'm not saying wishless is a bad idea. I'm sure it works fine for whoever uses it but I just prefer th build with BW. Neither one has better game against blue decks IMO which is really our only weakness
I think Vacrix's point is that the Wish-less build should have a better game against blue decks, because you can dedicate 15 sideboard cards to the matchup (e.g., bringing in Carpet of Flowers, Xantid Swarms, Autumn Veils, and Pyroblasts/REBs to play a slower, grinding game and run out the counters).

[Vacrix]

Reforge the Souls is a perfectly good business spell. You just need to run slightly more business that way it doesn't brick on you. I've had a lot of luck goldfishing 4 Reforge, 4 Belcher, 4 EtW, 1 PiF but its not an optimized list just yet because I spend most of my time testing other decks.

In terms of a black splash, you can run Streeth Wraith to facilitate Chrome Mox --> Street Wraith. Don't know if its enough though. I haven't tried playing Spoils in a while now. Spoils is also much better than BW if you can cast it with another business spell as it can find LED to activate Charbelcher.


Also, 7 EtW vs. 4 EtW has multiple facets. It means 3 uncounterable EtW's and 4 counterable EtW's. Also, it becomes not only counterable but Snareable EtW. None of your business is Snareable if you forgo Burning Wish. Then there is also 7 EtW vs. having a post-board plan. At least I think the wishboard should shrink considerably. Perhaps..

SB:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
2 Reforge the Soul

4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Autumn's Veil
2 Defense Grid
1 Taiga

Post-board you board in everything but Empty the Warrens. Then you have an actual board plan. Defense Grid has been awesome in my PSI testing. I can imagine it would be good in Belcher as well. Defense Grid and Autumn's Veil are also particularly good at supporting Reforge the Soul as a business spell. Having to hit 3 mana just to counter something means Carpet is going to turn on and then you can start grinding. With +3 business spells post-board and +6 protection spells, Carpet becomes pretty strong. Thats 14 business and 6 protection spells for a grand total of 20 must counter spells vs. 11, 3 of which are not counterable.

[AriLax]

I found myself almost never using Infernal Tutor or Goblin War Strike.

I actually liked Goblin War Strike. It allows smaller EtW counts to beat a Mystic, EE, or a Terminus setup. Admittedly I've only played 7 rounds with the deck, but I used it twice in that time span (once to race a sweeper, other to race a potential Matron->Warchief->Sharpshooter).

That said, I can't speak for Infernal Tutor. Honestly, getting to the 11 necessary to BW->IT->Belch seems unrealistic

[zmattk]

First off even with the wishless list you cannot run 15 anti blue cards. Taking that many cards out for every blue deck dilutes your deck way too much and you lose consistency.

Also I'd personally rather have 4 counterable EtW than no wincons in my hand. Isn't the point of this deck to go off and assume your opponent kept a loose hand game 1 and then board in your anti hate games 2 and 3. I just feel this deck doesn't mulligan well and searching for a EtW is very risky.

I've done testing with Reforge as well. If your opponent lets it resolve, they most likely don't have the counterspell for it, and drawing 7 new cards will more than likely give them a way to fight us. Just look at what Griselbrand can do with a draw 7. And even if they don't draw counters there's still the chance you fizzle. I guess that's why a number of Past in Flames would be necessary but that still cuts away from cards we might want in the MD.

I know Street Wraith could work for imprint but I have a hard time casting Tinder Wall at times and we have even more green cards than we would black. Not to mention we would probably need Bayou and that would weaken our Belchers.

Defense Grid is a card I've always liked but I fear it might be too difficult to cast. I would never want to ritual into it because the speed you lose from that might be enough to allow your opponent to pay for it. And I'm not sure how reliably we can actually cast it.

@Ari Lax
I don't hate Goblin War Strike. It has worked wonders when you actually get to cast it. I just haven't run into many situations where I could do that. I never really find myself with an extra Burning Wish and 3 extra mana in hand unless I get really lucky with top decks. I feel it's just more of a cute card than something we can rely on. It's definitely something I consider in my board though. If I wasn't using Reanimate or Bribery I would include Goblin War Strike over Infernal Tutor though. I just feel like the meta is in a place where I can use both right now and drop the other 2 for the time being.

[AriLax]

@Ari Lax
I don't hate Goblin War Strike. It has worked wonders when you actually get to cast it. I just haven't run into many situations where I could do that. I never really find myself with an extra Burning Wish and 3 extra mana in hand unless I get really lucky with top decks. I feel it's just more of a cute card than something we can rely on. It's definitely something I consider in my board though. If I wasn't using Reanimate or Bribery I would include Goblin War Strike over Infernal Tutor though. I just feel like the meta is in a place where I can use both right now and drop the other 2 for the time being.

Reasonable. I just don't like Reanimate in this deck. It's awesome in TES where you can trap them with a Silence when they dump Grisel, but I'm wary of it being reasonable in Belcher. You have to be on the draw against a Careful Study to really want it (or on the play with a Tinder Wall ship hand where they then have Study).

Bribery seems sweet though. Sometimes a Wish -> Empty isn't enough, gotta go bigger.

[Vacrix]

First off even with the wishless list you cannot run 15 anti blue cards. Taking that many cards out for every blue deck dilutes your deck way too much and you lose consistency.

Defense Grid is a card I've always liked but I fear it might be too difficult to cast. I would never want to ritual into it because the speed you lose from that might be enough to allow your opponent to pay for it. And I'm not sure how reliably we can actually cast it.
I don't know about 15 necessarily. This deck doesn't have the flexibility of SI post-board because red's rituals are much weaker and much easier to disrupt. However, if you substitute
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Seething Song

Thats 12 cards right there. Then you have a 3 card wish board. You don't want cyclers post-board, even as good as Probe is, because that makes your opening hand and mulligans much harder to judge, which is rather important for post-board consistency.

For those cards, I'm going to test a board of:
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Autumn's Veil
2 Defense Grid
2 Taiga

Without perpetual resources, any sort of post-board plan Belcher plays is going to ride mostly on luck. 7 out of 11 win conditions are counterable and Flusterstorm post-board shuts down EtW hard. Xantid Swarm is frankly outdated tech and people expect it.

Taiga's help you grind and turn a normally dead Land Grant into a perpetual resource. Having post-board lands in a deck with Belcher means nothing if you don't land it protected within the first few turns. Rather, this approach opts out of the 'put your balls on the table and hope your opponent didn't bring a hammer' approach Belcher usually takes against blue. Carpets also help you grind and the Taigas help you play them more consistently. Defense Grid, if it lands, gives the opponent a choice: play into Carpet of Flowers and have protection, or let Belcher play its shit uninhibited without Carpet as a perpetual resource. Choice A is usually preferred. Autumn's Veil also plays well with a resolved Carpet because they cannot let it resolve unless you've shown them your hand with Land Grant.


Also I'd personally rather have 4 counterable EtW than no wincons in my hand. Isn't the point of this deck to go off and assume your opponent kept a loose hand game 1 and then board in your anti hate games 2 and 3. I just feel this deck doesn't mulligan well and searching for a EtW is very risky.
Yes that is the point of this deck. The question we ought to ask though is should it be the point? Boarding in anti-hate in games 2 and 3 doesn't really mean much. You get Swarm, Pyroblast, Veil, etc. They get Flusterstorm. That even turns off EtW. This deck has to adapt. BW is the problem but mostly because the deck often plays a huge wishboard. This deck prepares for the matchups it already is supposed to win with the wishboard more than it does its worst matchup; U.dec

So if you don't want to take out BW, at least experiment with a micro-wishboard for the things you really want to see.

[zmattk]

I wouldn't doubt the power of Xantid Swarm. It may seem outdated and expected but I think people forget it cannot be spell pierced. I've had people keep hands of double pierce and cringe when I open with first turn Swarm. And I think people would rather keep a hand with Spell Pierce against us rather than a hand with Bolts or StP. If you play this deck locally a lot I'd probably do a rotation between the two or even a split at times just to keep people honest, but at larger events I'd always choose Swarm.

My one problem with your suggested board of the cantrips for 12-15 anti blue cards in the wishless version is that you cut BW exclusively for the cantrips. With only 8 cards that win and no way to find them faster, I can see it being even worse at mulliganning.

That being said I do plan on testing multiple versions of this deck. Keep us updated with your sb in wishless and I can tweek my sb as well. I agree this deck needs to adapt but the very nature of its existence makes it difficult to. Any major changes like I've seen suggested at times would probably be better off served with people playing a different deck. I personally play this deck for its turn 1 consistency, if I wanted a more grindy win I'd just play TES. Because the longer we stall the game digging for and playing protection, the more we open ourselves to other vulnerabilities like hatebears.

Ari, I agree on the Reanimate. It does seem a bit narrow. I'll keep swapping it with War Strike and see which one is more useful.

[ahg113]

Been playing around with Belcher for a little while now. And I think the Xantid Swarm is better than given credit for. If for no other reason that Stifle is on the rise and Autumn's Veil does nothing to stop it. Stifle makes a mockery of both Belcher and EtW. That and what's old is new again, since typical spot removal is horrible in Belcher (except when you feel like durdling and hard cast your Spirit Guide for lulz) it gets boarded out, and Xantid Swarm does better. As already mentioned, it can't be Spell Pierced either.

Anyone else have an opinion on the better sideboard card of either Blood Moon vs. Defense Grid? Pro's, Con's. I think Blood Moon, but it has negative synergy with Carpet... Blood Moon has a greater blow-out potential than Defense Grid though...

Right now I play a SB of:
4 Xantid Swarm - JDG - G
4 Carpet of Flowers - URS - G
2 Blood Moon - 9th - 2R
3 Pyroblast - ICE - R
2 Mirri's Guile - TMP - G

Swap out Probe, Seething Song, Manamorphose, Goblin Bushwhacker, and a LG/Pyretic or two pending on the match-up.

Cheers,
Can they just ban blue already?

[AriLax]

ahg113:

Mind if I ask what Mirri's Guile is doing when there are 4 shufflers in the deck?

[ahg113]

No prob. Jace is the Devil, and Mirri's Guile helps get around fateseal.

If I draw a LG, I can chose not to use it or not with a Guile in play, not that a shuffle effect is bad at all. LGs are typically great on the first turn or so for the land, but then become throw away storm bosters or imprint for Chrome Mox. Inherent disadvantage of giving your opponent perfect info too

More so going for the Belcher win, rather than EtW win, there's many times when a Belcher is castable, but not usable. The Guile will give me 3 chances to find an LED or likewise, instead of that smug Jace player letting me keep a seething song, or prevent me from miracling into a RtS.

If I had more Guile, I might play more, not sure. In SB games, the Carpet of Flowers has been uber clutch, winning a game by stock piling green so I could burn through stupid cards in my hand then play EtW.

Cheers,
or... tldr - folks use fetches with Top, Ponder, Brainstorm... what's so different with LG and Guile?

[Vacrix]

Glad someone picked up on the alternative sideboard plans. I mean, you can also play a micro-wish board instead if you still want to play BW, but it really needs to start getting smaller so that we can improve our worst matchup.


Bloodmoon and Carpet I've concluded is a bit de synergistic. I much prefer Defense Grid. Ritual, Defense Grid, Pyroblast is an awesome turn 1 play. Blood Moon requires you to tick up to 4 where you could just as easily play EtW; they probably don't want you to get there and will counter the ritual that lets you tick up to 4, especially if you played a bunch of artifact IMS's to have a 4+ storm count pre-EtW.

Xantid Swarm will randomly win you games, but its more random than anything else. I've been consistently losing hands with Xantid Swarm against good players.

Also, I really do like the idea of Noxious Revival. End of turn, put Reforge the Soul back on top.. really strong play. It also gets back Charbelchers and Carpets which help in the long game, and it has some random applications against Reanimator.

[ahg113]

@ Vacrix

Where do you place Noxious Revival? It seems a bit narrow to only use as a RtS enabler, or to fight Reanimator (not big in my neck of the woods.)

And I agree about Defense Grid. Blood Moon is sexier, Defense Grid is more reliable. Being a mana cheaper (hypothetical turn faster) is also pretty clutch.

Cheers,
anyone here from around Philly?

[AriLax]

No prob. Jace is the Devil, and Mirri's Guile helps get around fateseal.

If I draw a LG, I can chose not to use it or not with a Guile in play, not that a shuffle effect is bad at all. LGs are typically great on the first turn or so for the land, but then become throw away storm bosters or imprint for Chrome Mox. Inherent disadvantage of giving your opponent perfect info too

More so going for the Belcher win, rather than EtW win, there's many times when a Belcher is castable, but not usable. The Guile will give me 3 chances to find an LED or likewise, instead of that smug Jace player letting me keep a seething song, or prevent me from miracling into a RtS.

If I had more Guile, I might play more, not sure. In SB games, the Carpet of Flowers has been uber clutch, winning a game by stock piling green so I could burn through stupid cards in my hand then play EtW.

Cheers,
or... tldr - folks use fetches with Top, Ponder, Brainstorm... what's so different with LG and Guile?

Well, Guile actually puts you down a card. If it was any other card in your deck, odds are you could just pay for that Belcher or do anything with it. Also, almost every Brainstorm/Top deck has min 8 shufflers that do things. The cards aren't good without them.

Also, wait what? You care about a permanent that costs four to cast and isn't a Leyline?

[Anusien]

I thought playing for the long game with Belcher meant winning turn 1 on the draw.

[ahg113]

I don't like scooping, hence I'll have a bunch of turns against control because they don't do anything.
The goal is to win right away, but that isn't always the reality. If that's the case, I like improving my odds with a relevant sideboard instead of a wish target sideboard.

I admit, with the new SB, the deck is 1/2 cold to a STIP Leyline of Sanctity or fully cold vs resolved Solitary Confinement.

Cheers,
the long game is win by turn three (two swings with oodles of Goblin tokens)

[AriLax]

I don't like scooping, hence I'll have a bunch of turns against control because they don't do anything.
The goal is to win right away, but that isn't always the reality. If that's the case, I like improving my odds with a relevant sideboard instead of a wish target sideboard.

I admit, with the new SB, the deck is 1/2 cold to a STIP Leyline of Sanctity or fully cold vs resolved Solitary Confinement.

Cheers,
the long game is win by turn three (two swings with oodles of Goblin tokens)

I like improving my odds by not drawing a card that does stone cold nothing to help me combo on turn one.

[dropsaway]

Hello, players

I would like your help to build a consistent sideboard for my Belcher.

I usually play against:

Nic Fit
Maverick (GW / GWR)
U / R Delver
Solitaire (Enchantress)
Affinity
Dredge
Dragon Stompy

My current deck list:

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Street Wraith

4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame

4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Taiga

sideboard
??

[ahg113]

I like improving my odds by not drawing a card that does stone cold nothing to help me combo on turn one.

It's obvious a matter of preference. U.dec plays FoW, which is pretty awesome at making Belcher decks sad on turn one. Maybe moving the target from turn one is pretty decent; or, improving our odds against counter spells is mad decent. I'm not sure of any U.dec that will play Belcher, then decide what they need less of are counter spells.

Even though our match-up vs. FoW isn't great, the typical U.dec isn't going to win by turn 7 (randomly picked), RUG has a clock. If we can play around the counter, or a way to help our card selection after an initial salvo- I'm all in favor of it.

Cheers,
doesn't like to scoop

[Asthereal]

You need the following:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Shattering Spree
1 Hull Breach
1 draw spell, perhaps Reforge the Soul or Diminishing Returns

You can supplement by:
1 Reverent Silence (good against rows of enchantments)
more Shattering Sprees (good against artifact hate)
3-4 Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast (against blue mages)
3-4 Xantid Swarm (against blue mages)
3-4 Carpet of Flowers (again against blue mages)

Also interesting:
1 Cave-In (to fight rows of beasts)
1 Goblin War Strike (finisher after Empty the Warrens token fail to get there)

Since you mention that your meta isn't that full of blue decks, I would suggest the following:

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Cave-In
1 Reverent Silence
1 Hull Breach
4 Shattering Spree (side 3 in, keep the 4th side as Wish target)
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Red Elemental Blast (still need stuff against blue)

If there REALLY isn't any blue around, swap 3-4 anti-blue cards for 3-4 Serum Powder, and side those in against aggrodecks in favor of Gitaxian Probes. Those will help mulling for winner hands.

BTW I suggest you don't play Street Wraiths main deck. Having 8 cantrips makes mulligan choices harder. You can just play Pyretic Rituals instead. Extra mana always comes in handy. :)

[Vacrix]

The long game with Belcher isn't long per se. But from my experience testing the grind plan in PSI, being able to still be very much in the game 10 turns into the game, even with Counterbalance, Top, Jace, Liliana, with an opponent holding several countermagic. I've won through that exact board position many times. I think its time we started porting some of this strategy over to Belcher. Carpet of Flowers... is absolutely nuts in the mid to long game. Belcher also needs a lot of time to rebuild so having a Carpet and forcing the blue player to sandbag you on lands allows you more time to rebuild, meaning you can land Empty the Warrens, or try to land a Belcher with some protection spell.

Go off or bust is a strategy that works when racing bears and other lock pieces. You need a contingency plan against blue. They don't often play lock pieces so you'll ideally have time to assemble multiple attempts or one solid attempt with Empty the Warrens, especially if they don't expect Carpet of Flowers, or sit on fetches as you acquire more IMS's and artifacts that you can land on the board and sculpt your hand. The long Belcher gets to sculpt its hand, the greater chance the U player has of running into Empty the Warrens instead of something they can counter.

There's always Flusterstorm, which is run quite frequently in the sideboard. Autumn's Veil plays around it rather nicely but Flusterstorm doesn't hit Belcher. This means if Veil is protecting Belcher rather than Empty the Warrens, then your opponent will have to choose wisely with their countermagic. Holding onto Flusterstorm in fear of Empty the Warrens could lead to a resolved Belcher. Keeping Probe in post-board would likely help facilitate this.

[claudio.r]

Consider i wanted to play a wishless list, could i get away with only 2 LEDs ?

[Vacrix]

Its probably easier to cut LED's when you don't run wish. Often you need that extra mana that way you can hit 6 for Empty the Warrens. Granted, with LED you are aiming to hit 4 to 5 mana rather than 4 to 7 so it should be easier. Throw a list onto Cockatrice and see which mana sources you can substitute for LED.

[TerribleTim68]

I find that when running a wish-less build (which I do) I typically find the belcher win condition more often than the EtW win condition (which is exact opposite of wish builds). What that means is that cutting the LEDs means you are actually hurting your chances of that turn 1 belch for lethal. Sure, the LED is much more useful in a wish build post casting a wish or what ever. But don't forget about belcher activations on turn 1. When running wishless, that turn 1 belcher activation IS the game. You'd be hard pressed to get there without LED.

[Vacrix]

Well given the actual number of win conditions after Reforge the Soul, its split between Belcher and Empty the Warrens so you aren't actually winning with Belcher more than EtW per se. Rather, you aren't finding it 7/11 times like you do in classic Belcher because you cut Wish for Reforge the Soul.

[karaxu]

So I've been goldfishing the list with Reforge the Soul and it seems legit and is as explosive (if not more explosive) than the Wish build.

Now I'm no belcher expert, just got interested about a month ago, but I believe the deck's greatest strength against Force of Will.dec is them loosely keeping hands without force of will especially game 1. Now if we run a card that lets them basically get a free mulligan to 7 chances are they will get that force of will to screw with us. Given this I think that the Burning Wish variant is still superior.

Just my 2 cents.

[Silent Requiem]

So I've been goldfishing the list with Reforge the Soul and it seems legit and is as explosive (if not more explosive) than the Wish build.

Now I'm no belcher expert, just got interested about a month ago, but I believe the deck's greatest strength against Force of Will.dec is them loosely keeping hands without force of will especially game 1. Now if we run a card that lets them basically get a free mulligan to 7 chances are they will get that force of will to screw with us. Given this I think that the Burning Wish variant is still superior.

Just my 2 cents.

I see where you are going, but I'm not sure it's the right approach.

Full disclosure: I play PSI, not Belcher, but the decks have a lot in common. I run Summoners Pact in the main deck, so on game 1 against blue decks I have to hope they don't have the Force, or I will be killed by my own Pact trigger the turn after I fizzle. No second chances for me!

That doesn't bother me, though, because Pact is awesome against everything not blue. Against blue, however my Pacts come out and my 15 card anti-blue sideboard comes in. It's very, very good against blue.

I can only do that, though, because I actually have a sideboard. BW Belcher does not. So rather than just looking at game 1, think about games 2 and 3, where the blue player absolutely-positively-without-a-doubt has FoW. BW Belcher doesn't really have any new tricks for that. Wishless Belcher probably does.

If BW Belcher and Wishless Belcher goldfish equally well, why not try giving a real sideboard a try? It seems to me the only thing holding back Belcher is the poor matchup it has against blue in games 2 & 3. This could fix that issue.

[Vacrix]

Yeah I agree people really need to start experimenting with sideboards for this deck because the current plan is frankly shit; there's a good reason Belcher has been thrown to the way side. WotC has gotten stormhate happy over the past like every set since the we had a combo winter with TES and Belcher, and then there was a Mystical Tutor ban after Ad Nauseam got printed. Empty the Warrens isn't even a surefire kill anymore since Flusterstorm got printed. Then there's Maverick, which is almost ensured a turn 2 bear, putting a lot of pressure on the Belcher player to win or gain evitability on the first turn.

Reforge the Soul could be the way to go but from testing I've concluded that its a good variation but not necessarily strictly better in all matchups. I'd have to do way more testing to reach a final decision and frankly, I'm rather lazy when it comes to testing Belcher. The deck isn't really that much fun after you've played a solid 100 games with it.

I'd point anyone interested in running Reforge as a business spell towards don'tbiteitholmes Flames Belcher list. Its really fucking good; I've played it a lot on Cockatrice to try to come up with a better build but I just settled on his list after testing a bunch of variations. It goes off turn 1 one quite often or sets up a turn 2 kill consistently, and you can set up with protection and have way more multiple attempts than Classic Belcher lists ever could. Also, even when you are passing the turn the list has a lot of ways to bypass disruption. Personal Tutor --> Reforge is actually an excellent play because it opens up your initial mana sources and rituals to produce enough mana to pay for or bait Spell Pierces given that Reforge only costs 1R. Also, you can bait (at least in game 1) with Seething Song to draw out Force and then play Personal Tutor. Next turn you're going off for 1R after drawing out their countermagic and perhaps you have a LED or IMS(s) to play around Spell Pierce. Granted they might draw into a Force in the new 7 but this deck plays maindeck Autumn's Veil so sometimes you can set up a turn where Veil resolves in response to Force after you pay the Miracle cost. Then, the rest of your attempt is protected, even from Flusterstorm. The deck seems like a pretty powerful Belcher variant, especially when there isn't anything new really to expect out of Belcher lists because everyone has been playing practically the same Classic Belcher maindeck and sideboard since like 2007 when Empty the Warrens got printed (with a few exceptions of cyclers). Its time to switch it up and push players toward variations.

The only thing I think should become standardized is a microwishboard. Seriously you almost never have the opportunity to wish for something other than Empty the Warrens so its rather pointless to run a bunch of cards that only improve the match ups you are supposed to win anyway. Otherwise this deck has almost no game plan against blue. UW is setting up Terminus with Brainstorm or Etutor for EE while BUG is going to cantrip into Pulse or Deed. It happens... way too often. This deck has a better game plan against Tempo but they often run post-board Flusterstorm so that they don't lose to Empty the Warrens. And then there is always Snapcastered Flusterstorm... Its tough but with only 6 dedicated sideboard cards, your sideboard plan isn't going anywhere. Also, just think about it. This deck plays about 11 business spells, give or take one; its not going to often have the 2nd business spell to BW into an answer and follow it up with another business spell. Just test a microwishboard and see how you like having +7 cards against blue. You only need like 3 or 4 cards MAXIMUM for a wishboard in Belcher. Anything else is just give you overkill on resources you never use and you wind up just wasting space.

In general, I think these ideas should be explored.

Carpet of Flowers > Seething Song (POST BOARD)

Seething Song is a huge counter target. Itusually gets you to 4-6 storm for an otherwise uncounterable Empty the Warrens. The fact that you have to invest 3 mana means you probably aren't going to go off with anything else on that turn so it gives them time to cantrip into another counterspell and put a clock on you. Since Belcher has to invest most of its hand into a turn, its going to take a solid 3-5 turns to even have enough cards to do something (3 cards if you have perpetual resources). Carpet on the other hand can be used as a ritual mid spell chain provided you pass to 2nd main phase. If your opponent cracks fetches to counter something, you can play this, pass to 2nd mainphase, add a bunch of mana and perhaps play a 2nd business spell. It also helps you play a grind game if you can up your post-board business spells to at least 15 (otherwise you won't be able to play business spells fast enough and run them dry of countermagic). Its a solid one drop and allows you to build up to perhaps a double EtW or Autumn's Veil protected turn. To draw a comparison to PSI, Belcher has an easier time winning with IMS's than rituals in PSI so as long as you land perps, you can go for an EtW turn as they sand bag you on Islands (which isn't as effective considering the number of perps this deck has) until you can go for double business or double business + Veil ideally... or just try to draw into your Empty the Warrens. Its really underplayed in Belcher considering how powerful it is. For the investment, Seething Song adds RR while Carpet will often add as little as 1 per turn (blue usually needs at least one Island to play cantrips) to as much as 4-6 against slower control decks.. per... Carpet. Free business spells? Fuck yeah.

Protection spells > Cyclers (POST-BOARD)

Cyclers... make hands hard to keep. A hand with 2 cyclers might draw you into 2 business spells when you want mana sources, vice versa, or perhaps even 2 protection spells when you need a business spell. Having protection spells in place of your cyclers means you won't need to discover whats on top of your deck. It makes mulligans more consistent and you aren't taking out crucial cards from the deck. Gitaxian Probe is one of these cards. Finding out that your opponent isn't an idiot is the greatest feeling when you see that FoW you really should expect them to have, or Flusterstorm, Pierce, etc. It ought to come out for something that actually draws out a piece of Countermagic. Veil, for example, will almost always draw out a countermagic, sometimes even 2 if you pay for it because they don't know what else you have in hand. I've drawn out 2 Daze, Spell Pierce with it and then went off the next turn through Force. Its an awesome card and severely underplayed compared to Xantid Swarm which has to deal with UR Delver and RUG Tempo which play 8 maindeck burn spells to deal with Swarm; usually they will have an answer for it.

Bloodmoon (POST-BOARD or MAINDECK)
This card... is ridiculous. If you can power it out on turn 1 what are they gonna do? They counter your Burning Wish with Force, then you use the remaining 3 mana to play Bloodmoon. They play a fetch, and pass the turn. Followed by another fetch, and then a dual... It can straight up rape decks with greedy mana bases, especially if played early. Even played mid to late game it can really turn the tide, especially when its +X threats to be played off Carpet. Even if it shuts down the duals that Carpet was using to produce mana, a slower control player who hasn't yet established a clock is going to be hard pressed to get there while you rebuild under the Moon. Pulpfiction used to maindeck them in his list and I've only heard good things about them.

Tropical Island (POST-BOARD or MAINDECK)
I've talked with some oldschool Belcher players who used to play Brainstorm and Meditate in their lists facilitated via Tropical Island. Can't say I've tried it yet but I've seen a list play it before and it completely destroyed a Tempo deck (at a local event). Personal Tutor could potentially see play as well if Trop turns out to be good. don'tbiteitholmes Flames Belcher list plays one in the maindeck and I didn't find myself misfiring often at all.

[sambra]

Hey folks,
i´m new to Belcher and did read mostly the last 20 pages of the thread. I like the idea of dodging B. Wish and its Sb targets to make room for more efficient hate cards. In my opinion this could easily be reached by playing 2 land belcher with B for Dark Ritual and Infernal Tutor. Resulting in a something like this:

1 Bayou
1 Taiga

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall

4 Dark Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
4 Empty the Warrens
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Desperate Ritual/Pyretic Ritual


Sideboard (15)
3-4 Carpet of Flowers
3-4 Defense Grid
3-4 Duress/Pyroblast/Autumn's Veil
0-3 Pyroclasm
0-3 Nature`s Claim
(0-4 Chain of Vapor?)

Sideboard is up for debate. You could spent minimal 10 Slots for the blue Matchups and maybe play a mix of Pyroclasm and Nature's Claim (or 3-4 Chain of Vapor?) to handle problematic creatures, artifacts, enchantments.
What do you guys think?

[karaxu]

Belcher (Wishless-Sideboardless variant :laugh:) placed 2nd in the latest SCG Legacy Open.

[Vacrix]

Finally people are catching on.

What was the list? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Belcher (Wishless-Sideboardless variant :laugh:) placed 2nd in the latest SCG Legacy Open.

Somewhere in the middle of the event that guy got a game loss because his brother told him he had to have a sideboard so he stuffed 15 Islands in his deck box and got deck checked.

The top 8 Merfolk kid was pretty funny too. He actually knocked me out of contention in round 7 and the whole time he kept drooling over my dual lands. Then I walked up after he won into top 8 and he was like, "Don't tell the other guys in top 8 I don't play Force" and I had to be the one to tell him the decklists go public, lol.

[zmattk]

Finally people are catching on.

What was the list? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

Catching on? It was another list with no sideboard. He also played 1 LED, it looks more like a budget list more than anything. You can see the list on SCG.

I honestly don't think one list is strictly better than the other. Sure you don't use every card in your wishboard frequently but I think that even with a 12-15 anti blue sb you run the risk of diluting your deck too much and I still don't think it gives you a strong blue matchup. I'd rather not lose to hate bears and decks I should beat when neither deck has a good blue matchup. The current wishboard has 8 anti blue cards which I feel is a sufficient amount to bring in against blue decks. If you're uneasy playing Xantid Swarm you can always play Autumn's Veil instead.

[karaxu]

After reading the top8 matches of SCG St. Louis Legacy Open, I noticed that the 48-card Belcher is more resilient to discard effects, this is evident as the pilot was always on the draw in game 1 and always face turn 1 Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize.

Thus making a keep of 2-3 cantrips with no business spell was somewhat good.

[Vacrix]

I'm referring to the Wishless builds not the sideboardless builds. Thats just lazy people getting lucky at the end of the day. Sometimes you draw the good matchups, and the good cards. The deck is kinda designed to do that anyway. Ultimately, I forsee this deck becoming much more difficult to contend with when it can actually develop a half decent sideboard plan. Frankly, I've been looking at Xantid Swarms again simply because they dodge Pierce and Daze (this deck has no trouble playing around Daze) and Spell Snare. The only thing that stops it is Force and spot removal. If you want to amplify the effectiveness of this plan, why not play Dark Confidants? Drawing 2 cards per turn means Belcher can actually use its life total as a resource to rebuild at twice speed, making a sideboard plan more effective because then you can draw Carpets, and actually have a higher business density since you can also board in business. I think going heavier creatures post-board means you can overload them on their removal spells. Perhaps even Welders. Just theory below:

SB
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Slot (for microwishboard)

4 Carpet of Flowers
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Goblin Welder
2 Dark Confidant
2 Autumn's Veil

8 business is really pushing it but I guess a 48 card deck realistically means you'll be drawing a business spell every 6 cards. Seems good. The resilence to discard makes sense. I'd think that PiF would make a nice 9th or 10th business spell though. Even with cyclers, if you get the ones you can recast with PiF than 2-3 cyclers turns into 4-6 cards, which, with a 48 card deck means you have a good chance of drawing what you need. I managed to find the lists after all but I was too drunk initially.



Well I guess this answers claudio.r's question; yes you can top8 at an SCG with 2 LED; you can do it with 1 in fact.

[subzero]

hi guys,
and sorry if i ask some stupid things

i like to build this deck, because i like have not "famous " deck, not play many mirror,and i like have combo easy but strong

can help me, about match up ,and how sideboarding in this deck?

in general, is better try to win at start the game, or wait maybe 3-4 turn?

really i try to search in web for little guide about this deck, but i didn find

regards

[slave]

Hi everyone,

So It's taken me a few days, but I've read through the majority of this thread.
Great read, cheers to all people to post here :smile:

I have a few questions.
Seeing as I'm looking for a budget deck to get into Legacy with, and seeing how LED and Taiga are only five big money cards in this deck, I'd like to give it a go.
I'm a long-time player, but left competitive play alone for quite some years.
I've decided to back on the bike although many of the older cards I (gave away to friends and fam) know and love don't quite work like they used to since the rules changed!

I've did some testing with both Burning Wish, and Wishless lists in a certain deckbuilder based on the net, and I have found wishless to be a little more consistent for a turn 1-2 kill, even though all the -2life cantrips do make your opponents'job easier to nail you. But then again Wish-lists are slightly more likely to go-off against discard and blue.
I did try a black splash for Dark Ritual, but I'm not sure I like it. It just seemed to be a dead card in hand a lot of the time. Thoughts on how to make it more consistent?
So after all that, I'm looking real hard at the Wishless list, and what the sideboard should look like.
As far as I can see, apart from counter - Discard can be tricky if they start using Extirpate/Surgical extraction style effects.

I saw Goblin Bushwhacker being used somewhere. This seemed like a nice addition for haste - but is there any better options than this?
Would Vexing Devil be worth an inclusion?
I suggest this mainly for those games where you have nothing to do on turn one (should be rare) or when you've just cast a nice EtW and still have a few mana left after Daze/Spell Pierce insurance. Thoughts?

Finally, what about more (free) cards with phyrexian mana?
Surgical Extraction for once you've been forced?
Maybe Noxious Revival to get back your win-con after first turn Thoughtsieze, Duress etc.?
Gut Shot for more stormin' goblins?
Obviously Gut Shot makes more sense than the others so I favour that, but I'm not convinced any of these are going to be a worthy addition against many decks at all.
And even if I did include Gut SHot, I'd be seriously thinking about Needle Drop.
But really - I guess the main reason for running Surgical Extraction would be coupled with Reforge the Soul.
So you'd go as per normal, but if they counter you - you'd extract their Force/Pierce etc., and then reforge the soul for your win-con. ....I still can't see it being playable.....

Thoughts?

ANyways - just a question I've been wondering throughout this thread.
Since this deck is such a glass cannon;
Has anyone considered using Pact of Negation?
Of course they'd be a risky sideboard option - but if you had a quartet in the sideboard for blue opponents only, you may be able to protect your big bad belcher turn 1 kill from force.

I had another thought too - for the mirror match.
Insurrection / Twisted Allegiance
Can you imagine taking control of all those goblins and finishing someone off?

[karaxu]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=48034

Another Top8 for belcher, but there is minimal discussion about it.

I think this deck has reached the point where the core cards are defined and not much innovation is left, still it is a good choice for a tournament cause you just win against those unprepared for it.

[rxavage]

Belcher is on a tear and kicking dcks in the dirt left and right lately, it's even beating blue decks. Is this because players are getting better piloting it or is it luck?

[Vacrix]

Its definitely getting better but mostly because you have to play diverse sideboard hate that covers multiple matchups rather than hate that one-shots a specific deck. Like Mindbreak Trap? Great against Belcher; literally Belcher-pesticide. Leyline of Sanctity, which you can also use against Burn, ANT, TES, and discard, has the disadvantage of not stopping the more common win condition, Empty the Warrens. Then you have the bears, each of which does something relevant, but not til turn 2 and most of them are strong sideboard material against storm/Belcher, but not always in other places. Thalia is good against UR/RUG Tempo because it makes cantrips, burn, ie. everything cost +1.

Thalia is probably the strongest diverse hate that you can play next to Counterbalance. Given that most people need to devote sideboard space to beat the other combo decks like Sneak Show, Reanimator, Dredge.. the can only prepare for so many matchups and Belcher hate usually falls by the way side.


I wouldn't say its fucking people up left and right, but it sure is topping 8 more often.

[rxavage]

I wouldn't say its fucking people up left and right, but it sure is topping 8 more often.


When sneakshow was placing as often people were clamoring for bannings.

[DarkAkuma]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=48034

Another Top8 for belcher, but there is minimal discussion about it.

I think this deck has reached the point where the core cards are defined and not much innovation is left, still it is a good choice for a tournament cause you just win against those unprepared for it.

lol. Makes me sad seeing that. I wanted to go down there today since the Legacy scene in Vegas is so f'n dead right now and support it whenever I can. But I decided not to because $40 is a bit to much for me to spend on a tourney right now, and I've just come back to MTG after being away for 4 years and have absolutely no experience playing against a lot of the popular decks right now, because the Legacy scene here is so horrendous. This is sad because if I went I would have played my belcher deck, for one its the most competitive deck I have together right now, and 2 its probably the best deck I could play period when not being to familiar with the cards everyone else is playing. I was on the fence still, but what tilted me toward not going was that it placed well recently enough that I expected not to do to well due to more hate and probably a more blue heavy meta compared to the recent SCGs.

Anyway. I do like that he played the more traditional list, as I'm not a fan of the wishless build. But the board he played had its goods and bads. Good that he didn't do something lame like 14 Islands and 1 EtW, because that joke sideboard has been done enough now. Bad in that I do in fact agree that devoting half of a sideboard to a wishboard is a waste. And bad I suppose that he didn't bring the deck anything new/interesting, but can't really fault him on that. Just a bummer.

[karaxu]

It really is a pity, with a deck as all-in as belcher, you really don't have a lot of room to innovate on.

How i wish there is a Black Spirit Guide so I can switch to a BlackRed Belcher or even a Land Grant that can search up Badlands would be sweet here's to hoping! :tongue:

[Silent Requiem]

It really is a pity, with a deck as all-in as belcher, you really don't have a lot of room to innovate on.

How i wish there is a Black Spirit Guide so I can switch to a BlackRed Belcher or even a Land Grant that can search up Badlands would be sweet here's to hoping! :tongue:

If you are looking to play B/R fast combo, have you considered SITES? It's a B/R SI variant. Deck list from the SI primer needs a few obvious updates (switch out one land for Dryad Arbor, and use fetches that can grab green, etc), but once you make those changes the deck is really solid. Win conditions are Tendrils, EtW, and Burning Wish. It's much more resilient against blue than standard SI or Belcher.

[JBulko]

It really is a pity, with a deck as all-in as belcher, you really don't have a lot of room to innovate on.

How i wish there is a Black Spirit Guide so I can switch to a BlackRed Belcher or even a Land Grant that can search up Badlands would be sweet here's to hoping! :tongue:

Heads up: Land Grant only searches for a Forest card. Might be a kink in your Badlands plan there. :cry:

[karaxu]

Heads up: Land Grant only searches for a Forest card. Might be a kink in your Badlands plan there. :cry:

That is why I said, I wish, and here's to hoping.

I was wishing for a card like that to be printed. :tongue:


If you are looking to play B/R fast combo, have you considered SITES? It's a B/R SI variant. Deck list from the SI primer needs a few obvious updates (switch out one land for Dryad Arbor, and use fetches that can grab green, etc), but once you make those changes the deck is really solid. Win conditions are Tendrils, EtW, and Burning Wish. It's much more resilient against blue than standard SI or Belcher.

Still It would be sweet if there are cards to outright replace the green cards, tinder wall (dark rit), Land Grant (my wish card that searches for mountain :lol:) and ESG (Black Spirit Guide).

Just wishful thinking really.

Yeah, I've seen a couple of SI variant's it seems good and would like to try it out soon. It seems it would be the closest to what I'm thinking of.

[skincoffin]

Hey guys, I'm currently looking for a legacy deck and since I dont have much money to spend on one, the Belcher deck has caught my attention. the thing is, I'm kinda unsure about the current viability of the deck vs the current meta.Its not that Im going to play on big tourneys, but Id like to win some regional ones :p what do you guys think? also, belcher vs spanish inquisition, which one to take and why?

[evanmartyr]

Both Belcher and SI get worse the more people run anti-combo hate cards, but they're very very rarely the reason for those hate cards. So the better other combo/control does, the worse time of it Belcher and SI are gonna have the tournament after.

I would suggest Belcher. The only major expense is 4x Lion's Eye Diamonds, and the decision-making trees are much less complicated. It can also be a good trainer into the more complicated decks like SI; playing belcher you start to internalize decisions involving storm and mana and you can play other combo decks far more confidently.

The downside of Belcher is that the deck is relatively stagnant. It's been mathed all to hell, the standard lists are hard to sideboard with because it's detrimental to your plan A to improve your plan B, and you're unlikely to surprise any opponent beyond the first turn of game 1 with your brilliant new tech, because there is none. SI is less well-known, much more difficult to SB against, and has tools (for a very skilled pilot) to overcome whatever it is your opponent thinks is going to shut you down.

But still, Belcher is a good investment in part because it's such a small investment and upgrades from new sets are extremely obvious (like Gitaxian Probe replacing Pyretic Ritual, the weakest acceleration spell, in the last generation of the standard decklist.

[skincoffin]

Both Belcher and SI get worse the more people run anti-combo hate cards, but they're very very rarely the reason for those hate cards. So the better other combo/control does, the worse time of it Belcher and SI are gonna have the tournament after.

I would suggest Belcher. The only major expense is 4x Lion's Eye Diamonds, and the decision-making trees are much less complicated. It can also be a good trainer into the more complicated decks like SI; playing belcher you start to internalize decisions involving storm and mana and you can play other combo decks far more confidently.

The downside of Belcher is that the deck is relatively stagnant. It's been mathed all to hell, the standard lists are hard to sideboard with because it's detrimental to your plan A to improve your plan B, and you're unlikely to surprise any opponent beyond the first turn of game 1 with your brilliant new tech, because there is none. SI is less well-known, much more difficult to SB against, and has tools (for a very skilled pilot) to overcome whatever it is your opponent thinks is going to shut you down.

But still, Belcher is a good investment in part because it's such a small investment and upgrades from new sets are extremely obvious (like Gitaxian Probe replacing Pyretic Ritual, the weakest acceleration spell, in the last generation of the standard decklist.

thanks for the heads up. I think I'll be going for it, try to win some local tourneys to get some money and cards for, maybe, in the future, make another deck :)

[TerribleTim68]

I know one thing, when I goldfish this deck on my kitchen table I want to play it in a tourney so bad! It just does what it does so consistantly! Well, until your opponent goes "Force of Will" and you fizzle. :cry: Can't I just play a tournament without anyone on the other side of the table? Or maybe just face Maverick all day! :tongue:

[iPhael]

I think one of the main reasons Belcher is doing so well, is that EtW is simply the nuts right now. We've arrived at the same conclusion over in the TES thread and even dropped Tendrils from the main. An early Empty almost always gets there, and we can always wish into other business if need be.

If I were to play Belcher, I'd certainly be in favor of the Wish variety. Having 7 EtW's just seems way too good to pass up.

[TerribleTim68]

Yea, that turn 1 Empty The Warrens usually spells "good game". But when you go turn 1 "Remove Simian Spirit Guide for a red, cast Rite of Flame" only to be met with Force of Will while you're holding what would have been a turn 1 Empty The Warrens with 6 or 7 storm, you pretty much just cry inside.

My meta is so blue heavy that Belcher just doesn't get there. It seems like every opponent in my meta is packing Force, Stifle & Daze. :cry: You either play blue here, or die to blue. It kinda sucks. :frown: I like the TES lists that run Orim's chant or Silence or both just because of all the blue here. But Belcher doesn't have that luxury. IF I could figure out how to beat blue with this deck on a consistant basis, I'd ram it down thier throat! I love playing it.

[iPhael]

Yea, that turn 1 Empty The Warrens usually spells "good game". But when you go turn 1 "Remove Simian Spirit Guide for a red, cast Rite of Flame" only to be met with Force of Will while you're holding what would have been a turn 1 Empty The Warrens with 6 or 7 storm, you pretty much just cry inside.

My meta is so blue heavy that Belcher just doesn't get there. It seems like every opponent in my meta is packing Force, Stifle & Daze. :cry: You either play blue here, or die to blue. It kinda sucks. :frown: I like the TES lists that run Orim's chant or Silence or both just because of all the blue here. But Belcher doesn't have that luxury. IF I could figure out how to beat blue with this deck on a consistant basis, I'd ram it down thier throat! I love playing it.


EDIT: I'm retarded disregard that lol. (Thought it was like silence... derp)

[Damoxx]

Yea, that turn 1 Empty The Warrens usually spells "good game". But when you go turn 1 "Remove Simian Spirit Guide for a red, cast Rite of Flame" only to be met with Force of Will while you're holding what would have been a turn 1 Empty The Warrens with 6 or 7 storm, you pretty much just cry inside.



If my opponent FoWs my first ritual, I high five myself in my head because I can, more than likely, go off next turn. Now if they counter the ritual that gets me to 4 or would leave me with 1 floating if countered, I say, "Well Played."

[TerribleTim68]

And then what do you do, other than roll over and die?

[TerribleTim68]

It seems like I'm usually met with a Force on the first turn, then a Daze on the second and so on. If they only had a single counter it wouldn't be so bad. But they seem to always have enough permission to counter every meaningful thing I try to do.

[Silent Requiem]

There are some decks that simply run nearly as much permission as you run counterable acceleration. On top of that, they get to 2:1 you when they let you hit your second spell in the chain. You can only beat these players if you are lucky, or they are greedy. Like Zoo, Belcher is a consistent deck that punishes bad opponents. Unlike Zoo, Belcher also randomly crushes good opponents that don't play blue (whereas Zoo randomly crushes good opponents that do play blue).

It's the nature of the deck, and why there are few dedicated Belcher pilots - it's very much a meta call. Belcher (and SI, and Dredge, and other meta decks) are decks that are great to have in your arsenal for those unprepared metas, but are never going to be consistent performers against prepared metas.

Edit: I played against Belcher in a tournament on the weekend, and she drew the god-hand seven that included EtW and four spirit guide. She didn't need to resolve a single spell to win. Fortunately, I was playing Solidarity (I was expecting loads of storm decks) and that deck has a fantastic storm v storm matchup. High Tide, Reset, Cunning Wish, Echoing Truth in the face of lethal damage bought me the time I needed to win.

[TerribleTim68]

I guess I'm looking for that magic way to get around all the blue. Sounds like it just may not exist.

In my experience from the times I've played it, I straight roll anything that doesn't have blue. It isn't even a contest. Usually it is so bad that when I drop the first card they go "Oh crap, Belcher?". But the blue decks just annihilate me every time. I may sneak off with game 1 on occasion, but after that I get rolled like a mission style burrito. :cry:

So if there is something out there that helps with the blue matchups, I'm all ears. I've read the stuff about Carpet Of Flowers but I still don't see how it helps that much. Sure, it adds mana for you, but it doesn't add storm. And in the blue matchups, Empty The Warrens seems the better route. Is Xantid Swarm the only viable answer?

[Silent Requiem]

The point of Carpet of Flowers is that you not that it builds storm, it's that you no longer care if your storm building spells resolve. Heck, countering them just gives you more storm, but does not really stop you from going off. It also means that after being shut down, a top-decked Belcher is probably a win.

Autumn's Veil is a green Silence in this deck, and could be worth playing if you can generate and float the green mana. This forces them to have two counters, because you don't cast AV until after their first counter hits your ritual. Double FoW is unlikely.

Of course, if I were running AV, I might consider running Summoner's Pact as well, because it effectively doubles the number of ESG you are running (which is the best way to sneak out that AV they are not expecting).

[TerribleTim68]

Ok sweet! That's the tech I was looking for. Thank you! I quit playing right at Mirrodin block and only came back last year. So some of these newer cards escape me. I think that might be what I'm looking for. I thought about Overmaster but it wasn't what I was looking for since it's only the next spell. Xantid Swarm seemed possible but not exactly what I want to do either since there is plenty of creature removal in Legacy. So I think I'll go grab some Autumn's Veils and give that a go.

[karaxu]

Nice to see this thread active again.

That really is the sad truth about belcher it is an all-in deck.

You can devote about just about 4-8 slots of Sideboard hate for blue, because you really can't change much in the main deck.

Going with a transformational sideboard to grind against blue like carpet of flowers, by doing this I think you are just becoming a worse TES/ANT deck. So it will be better to just switch to that deck as they combat blue better.

[evanmartyr]

Ok sweet! That's the tech I was looking for. Thank you! I quit playing right at Mirrodin block and only came back last year. So some of these newer cards escape me. I think that might be what I'm looking for. I thought about Overmaster but it wasn't what I was looking for since it's only the next spell. Xantid Swarm seemed possible but not exactly what I want to do either since there is plenty of creature removal in Legacy. So I think I'll go grab some Autumn's Veils and give that a go.

My experience with Xantid Swarm is that it either gets countered (which is fine, but you don't get much benefit from it because you almost always waste a card to cast it and your opponent has a chance to make another land drop/cast another Duress/etc), or gets removed (which is also fine, but generally worse for you than them). Autumn's Veil does almost exactly the same thing while dodging Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares, so...there's not much reason to run Xantid Swarm anymore, especially since you can only take so much out of the deck to make room for sb cards before you wreck the whole plan A.

I honestly wouldn't play Belcher these days, there are FAR too many Thalias running around...if you wanted to grind through a long tournament at least.

[skincoffin]

I'm curious about one thing.. how do the Street Wraiths fit on this deck? What are they for?

[HammerAndSickled]

Edit: I played against Belcher in a tournament on the weekend, and she drew the god-hand seven that included EtW and four spirit guide. She didn't need to resolve a single spell to win. Fortunately, I was playing Solidarity (I was expecting loads of storm decks) and that deck has a fantastic storm v storm matchup. High Tide, Reset, Cunning Wish, Echoing Truth in the face of lethal damage bought me the time I needed to win.

Maybe I'm ignorant, but wouldn't she only get 2 goblins since the storm was 0? Even if her other two cards were free spells, she would get at most 6... that's not a god hand at all.

[TerribleTim68]

I'm curious about one thing.. how do the Street Wraiths fit on this deck? What are they for?

They are just to cycle, nothing more. Basically they make the deck -4 cards. So the lists that run 4 Street Wraith, 4 Gitaxian Probe & 4 Manamorphose are in essence like playing a 48 card deck. your odds of hitting your money spells are much better that way. In theory any way. :tongue:

[skincoffin]

They are just to cycle, nothing more. Basically they make the deck -4 cards. So the lists that run 4 Street Wraith, 4 Gitaxian Probe & 4 Manamorphose are in essence like playing a 48 card deck. your odds of hitting your money spells are much better that way. In theory any way. :tongue:

yeah I get that logic, I was just wondering if there were any other spells that would be more useful

[TerribleTim68]

yeah I get that logic, I was just wondering if there were any other spells that would be more useful

Well, you could replace them with 4 Burning Wish and go that route. :wink:

[skincoffin]

Well, you could replace them with 4 Burning Wish and go that route. :wink:

are there any advantages in running a wishless build?

[Silent Requiem]

Maybe I'm ignorant, but wouldn't she only get 2 goblins since the storm was 0? Even if her other two cards were free spells, she would get at most 6... that's not a god hand at all.

Eight goblins, actually. She was on the draw, so she had eight cards in hand, giving her a storm of 4. If I'd countered anything (and I could have), it would have been even worse.

[TerribleTim68]

are there any advantages in running a wishless build?

Depends on who you ask. Some swear you have to have them. I don't miss them. I think it comes down to your choice. I think running them dictates what you do with your sideboard and uses a lot more sideboard room. Going without them means you can do more with the sideboard since you don't use any slots for wish targets. But it also means you dillute the deck some when you do sideboard.

So in short - It's 6 in one, a half dozen in the other. :tongue:

[skincoffin]

Depends on who you ask. Some swear you have to have them. I don't miss them. I think it comes down to your choice. I think running them dictates what you do with your sideboard and uses a lot more sideboard room. Going without them means you can do more with the sideboard since you don't use any slots for wish targets. But it also means you dillute the deck some when you do sideboard.

So in short - It's 6 in one, a half dozen in the other. :tongue:

Yeah using wishes limits your sb a lot, and that can hurt specially against blue decks.

One thing I'm worried about making this deck is of being tired of it pretty quickly. Whats your guys opinion/experience on this?

[TerribleTim68]

Yeah using wishes limits your sb a lot, and that can hurt specially against blue decks...

Actually, I don't find it "limiting" at all. If anything, the only thing this deck doesn't straight roll IS blue. So what I'm doing is looking for a sideboard method that WILL beat blue and not worrying about anything else. With that in mind, the sideboard should be more open since you only need to worry about 1 thing instead of needing an answer for 15 different things.

[karaxu]

I like playing the burning wish because it lets you play 7 empty the warrens.

And note that blue is not the only enemy, there is thalia, thorn of amethyst and chalice of the void. Admittedly, the times you have a chance to use the wishboard is not that often, still it is nice to have the option to answer other non-blue threats if given the chance.

[Vacrix]

I like playing the burning wish because it lets you play 7 empty the warrens.

And note that blue is not the only enemy, there is thalia, thorn of amethyst and chalice of the void. Admittedly, the times you have a chance to use the wishboard is not that often, still it is nice to have the option to answer other non-blue threats if given the chance.
The problem with Burning Wish is that it makes Empty the Warrens cost +2, becomes Spell Snareable as well as any other countermagic. So its having 7 with 4 out 7 being counterable vs. 4 that are not counterable. Also, yeah the wishboard rarely ever comes up. People can make it through the whole tournament without even using it. Its much better in TES.

I really think this deck needs to learn how to transform with the sideboard somehow. There are plenty of different ways to go with it.

[TerribleTim68]

I like playing the burning wish because it lets you play 7 empty the warrens.

And note that blue is not the only enemy, there is thalia, thorn of amethyst and chalice of the void. Admittedly, the times you have a chance to use the wishboard is not that often, still it is nice to have the option to answer other non-blue threats if given the chance.

All 3 of those are never a problem on turn 1. Thalia and Amethyst cost 2 and the Chalice isn't going to land on a relevant number on turn 1 either. Belcher can just explode on your turn 1 before any of those matter.

[ahg113]

Yeah using wishes limits your sb a lot, and that can hurt specially against blue decks.

One thing I'm worried about making this deck is of being tired of it pretty quickly. Whats your guys opinion/experience on this?

It's a fun deck. I don't get bored of playing with it, but I'm kinda a jerk. I'll take my lumps and lose to blue, but pretty much beat other decks. (Because of spirit guides and lotus petals, it's possible to win through a Cannonist and that is a wonderful feeling.)

If you play in a very heavy blue Meta, I would advise against playing Belcher, you'll have long games and they'll be unfun, assuming you refuse to scoop/rage quit like I won't. (F your Mirsha's factory, keep attacking and ultimate Jace, I paid money to sit here and have all my stuff countered...) The glory of Belcher is to be winning and finishing within the first... 11.45 minutes. That way you can make a trip to food place of choice like a boss.

Also, it makes you smarter because of the frequent math involved. True fact, Belcher players are smarter due to the mental exercises of counting, both of storm and mana.

Cheers,
no whammy no whammy no whammy

[TerribleTim68]

Lol! I tend to agree with most of that. I do love playing the deck. But I tend to favor combo over anything else. I'm not much into that whole "cast critters and spend lots of turns attacking, trading and blocking" deal. :tongue:

Besides, there is something satisfying to me about spitting out 20 goblins on turn 1 when your opponent hasn't even drawn yet. Yes, I've done it. Yes, it happens with this deck. No, your opponent won't have much respect for you or your deck. But he will scoop before ever drawing a card. :laugh:

[feline]

the "4 gitaxian probe 4 manamorphose 4 street wraith" (essentially making it a 48 card deck) no wish sideboard seems to be, becoming more popular

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=47820

this one got 2nd place, sooo close, oooh so close!

[skincoffin]

the "4 gitaxian probe 4 manamorphose 4 street wraith" (essentially making it a 48 card deck) no wish sideboard seems to be, becoming more popular

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=47820

this one got 2nd place, sooo close, oooh so close!



the most impressive thing in that deck, besides the single LED, is surviving in the Top 8 through the finals. For what I see, belcher is essentially good with a "surprise" factor and in the top 8 you know your opponents decklist before game 1, am I right?

[feline]

That part is true, no surprise there.

Capitalization is required.
-4eak

[feline]

Yea, that turn 1 Empty The Warrens usually spells "good game". But when you go turn 1 "Remove Simian Spirit Guide for a red, cast Rite of Flame" only to be met with Force of Will while you're holding what would have been a turn 1 Empty The Warrens with 6 or 7 storm, you pretty much just cry inside.

My meta is so blue heavy that Belcher just doesn't get there. It seems like every opponent in my meta is packing Force, Stifle & Daze. :cry: You either play blue here, or die to blue. It kinda sucks. :frown: I like the TES lists that run Orim's chant or Silence or both just because of all the blue here. But Belcher doesn't have that luxury. IF I could figure out how to beat blue with this deck on a consistant basis, I'd ram it down thier throat! I love playing it.

I have both Xantid Swarm & Autumn's Veil in my belcher sideboard, when I first start playing magic again, the first deck I updated was my belcher deck, played it a few times at Exalted games of Tacoma but haven't played it yet at Comics Cube, at first it was because at the Comics Cube meta it would have just been unfair, but now the metagame is a true indicator of type 1.5, so now I don't play it because of the same reason I rarely push it at Exalted, all the blue makes it tough, I have actually gotten a 1st with it once at Exalted, but in the finals, I went against Maverick, which knocked out RUG the previous round, I basically got lucky and didn't run into any bad match up's.

One "trick" if they know how to fight belcher, is when you get an Empty the Warrens In your opening hand, you start going off and when they wait to counter your Seething Song or whatever else, basically, waiting to counter after you've put 3 mana in the pool, wasting as many of your cards as possible to really put you out, instead of burning some of that mana to produce more mana and then get setback, just use one of the 8 spirit guides Elvish Spirit Guide Simian Spirit Guide for that 4th mana, and then cast Empty the Warrens off that for enough tokens to get there. The harder part however is the "counter your Burning Wish / Goblin Charbelcher.

[Vacrix]

Has anyone thought about playing a man plan in the Belcher sideboard provided you have either a Wishless build or a micro sideboard? Creatures dodge Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, often Spell Snare, and typically you can use a spare ESG/SSG, or even LED to pay for Daze. That leaves Force of Will. Theres quite a lot of RUG and Merfolk that have absolutely no answers to creatures with X > 3 toughness. Only decks with STP, Terminus, Counterspell, etc. will have an easier time with this strategy but they often play longer games which means you have more opportunities to fuck with their mana base with Moon effects, or even bust out Thrun and watch their jaw drop.

Here's some Brainstorming for discussion:

Creatures:
Deus of Calamity - Tramples, quite large, and destroys lands
Goblin Chieftain - combos with Empty the Warrens
Magus of the Moon - punishes an opponent for getting greedy with their mana base
Thrun, the Last Troll - difficult to remove

These are a stretch but their might be something in here thats worth running:

Sulfur Elemental - stops, thalia, mom, and friends
Dosan the Falling Leaf - anti-countermagic measure
Hellrider - combos with empty the warrens quite well
Leatherback Baloth - efficient for the cost
Goblin Lookout - doesn't give goblins haste but thats always going to be relevant. in this case, he makes an empty the warrens for 8 + this guy is now 21 damage at your face.
Grim Lavamancer - Reach, removal, etc.
Molten Steel Dragon - 4 for a 4/4 flying is decent (and pay 4 life), the firebreathing seems useful for closing quickly on the life total
Mungha Wurm - 6/5 for 4. untapping 1 land per turn is irrelevant as a drawback
Omnath, Locus of Mana - 3 mana, combos with Carpet of Flowers REALLY well, and LEDs and lands
Desolation Giant - Blow the board? Not so good when you are sitting on tokens, but if you have a lot of them then you probably won anyway. If you don't, they might have put up a wall or overcommited with their creatures. This would be a nice way to reset things with a 3/3 on your side. Getting WW might be tough unless you have Carpet/Petal/MM.
Rakdos Pit Dragon - Another guy in the 4cc slot. Potentially is evasive, potential double strike (its not hard to get hellbent), as well as firebreathing
River Boa - Island walk is pretty good, and regeneration laughs at Burn removal.
Shizuko, Caller of Autumn - Extra mana each turn to cast fat guys. It seems like it would only be good in a build that can abuse the mana better htan the opponent can. Omnath seems legit with this, and Leatherback Baloth, Mungha Worm, etc. So the green creatures rather than the red ones.
Silvos, Rogue Elemental - For 6, which is pretty steep, he gets 8 power, trample and regeneration. Pretty beast.
Storm Entity - Small dude but he can get pretty big if he's cast from the opening hand.
Tarmogoyf - Had to include your friendly neighborhood spidergoyf.
Terra Stomper - Another in the 6cc slot. Probably better than Silvos since he's not counterable.
Thunderscape Master - Seemed like an interesting guy at 4cc. He has some reach on him, easier to kill, but he also pumps up Goblins.
Vexing Shusher - Protect your spells.


Non-creature:
Bloodmoon - Would accompany Magus nicely if +4 moon effects are optimal.



The non-creature list is currently small cause I actually looked through nearly 100 pages for the creatures so I'm done for today. I think this concept is worth exploring though. Granted, people leave in removal for Xantid Swarms, but if you can drop something like Thrun, what are they gonna do? Or Terrastomper while they are holding that Force? Carpet of Flowers is seriously nuts when you play the long game and creatures like these help you get there.

[ahg113]

I've been thinking of going a creature route base as well. The cards that most appeal to me are:
Vexing Shusher
Demigod of Revenge
Deus of Calamity
Hellspark Elemental
Ball Lightning
Blistering Firecat
Lightning Serpent
Lava Runner (just because I already own the card...)

Either a solid bang for your buck (red haste creatures), real utility (Shusher), fat (Deus) or resistance, recursion (Demigod).

I've gone wishless, and have no real desire to go back to a wish sb. That said, I really enjoy having 4 Carpet of Flowers and 2 Mirri's Guile. After those 6, I feel as though my selections are good, but nothing too over the top. I also have 4 Xanthid Swarm, 3 Pyroblast and 2 Defense Grid. In any iteration, I'd keep the Flowers and Guile.

And for the actual deck when SB, what comes out? With adding creatures (not swarm), we're effectively chanigng the wincons of the deck, so Charbelcher, EtW or RtS should come out. Probably leaning toward Charbelcher coming out first, but that's food for thought. I wouldn't want to keep the 11 wincons (counting RtS) in and then add creatures on top of it.

Cheers,
food for thought

[Vacrix]

I like the idea of Demigod since if they say trade playing RUG with a Delver and a Bolt, it comes back 2 'fold when you draw the second one. Also, correct me if I'm wrong but when you cast Demi God, it doesn't need to resolve for the other ones to come into play so countermagic doesn't really matter with this guy. If thats how it works by the way (really hope so), I'm so fucking testing this guy. He flies as well and is just out of single spell Burn range.

I think Deus is probably the next strongest choice.

Magus of the Moon might also be good but not right now considering there are so many decks playing heavy basics. It used to be way better.

I'm leaning towards Belchers and BW coming out, unless BW was already cut, and then you board in land and carpets. Man plans don't work without perpetuals. Empty the Warrens still seems pretty strong post-board so I'd definitely leave that in.


I'll do a bit of testing soon and see how this plan works and get back to you.

[ahg113]

So, spit balling a creature/land sb here...

4 Carpet of Flowers
2 Mirri's Guile
4 Demigod of Revenge
2 Forest based duals
3 Magus of the Moon

Two forest lands to improve Land Grant, Magus of the Moon to get utility disruption out of our creature addition, and Demigod as a new wincon. Aside from Carpet and Mirri's Guile, there are no necessary green spells for us to cast. Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, and ESG are all unaffected by Magus.

I think siding out Belcher is a given, that's 4. Another 8 cards would typically be cantrips, but I'd rather keep them in this set-up. I guess a proper deck list is needed before talking about what to take out. I'm a fan of keeping RtS, in order to restock the hand.

You're right too, when you cast Demigod, the others recur. Stifle would probably stop it, but it's pretty immune to conventional counterspells. It's a pain to cast, but a good payoff.
The dream (totally convoluted) is to have Mirri's Guile and LED in play. put a cantrip on top, with Demigod next. Draw the cantrip, play, pop LED in response, pitching some number of Demigods already in hand, draw and play Demigod, profit. A bastard version of Miracle so to say.

[Vacrix]

Sylvan Library has some advantages over Guile. Library not only lets you rearrange the top 3 but for the extra mana (though this opens you up to Snare), lets you draw extra cards, which means you could be drawing as many as 3 cards a turn. Belcher has an easy time rebuilding with that kind of draw engine. It usually just needs about 6 cards in hand to go off. If you pay 8 life twice, you could have a 6 cards in hand + whatever is left.

Then again, Guile does have the LED/cantrip trick. I think Manamorphose often comes out though post-board, so given that, I don't think this play will come up often enough to warrant Guile. Actually I was thinking about a business substitution. Instead of trying to board out the heavy rituals for protection and such, why not instead sideout Belchers and BW (if you play it) for the creature plan which dodges Pierce, Thalia, and Flusterstorm, which are all typical U answers to storm combo. Daze is pretty easy to play around since the deck has so much mana and instant speed spirit guide tricks. That leaves Counterspell, which needs UU to use which is great with Carpet of Flowers, and then you have Spell Snare, which is largely irrelevant if you lack Wish (which they will probably save it for), and Library if it winds up being good. And of course, Force of Will, but Demigod even dodges THAT if you have already tried to play one, or perhaps traded with the opponent's Coralhelm Commander, or RUG's Delver + Bolt.

I think if Belchers are definitely coming out, Taiga's should come in for sure. Fewer dead land grants and more perpetual mana sources is good for a deck thats trying to hard cast creatures that cost 5, even with multiple acceleration.

[SBGpinas]

The biggest problem in my experience with the Wishless build is that I find that you mulligan more often, because of the fact that you have 3 less Kill-conditions in the deck vs. a Burning Wish build.

That said, I am working on the assumption that No Kill-Cons in the opening hand is a mull, regardless of how many cantrips you have in hand. I have tried gambling at times, but it seldom works out.

I would have to disagree with people saying that the Burning Wish build leaves you more open to counters. Experienced players I've encountered don't need to counter Belcher, EtW or BW - they counter whatever brings you to 4 mana in the pool, so regardless of having BW or EtW in hand, you're still screwed.

[Vacrix]

Thats only in the pre-board. Post-board in wishless builds you can run stuff like Carpet of Flowers. If they don't counter it, or you hold on to it and let them crack their fetchlands first, then you should have no problem getting to 4 or 5 mana.

[SBGpinas]

Thats only in the pre-board. Post-board in wishless builds you can run stuff like Carpet of Flowers. If they don't counter it, or you hold on to it and let them crack their fetchlands first, then you should have no problem getting to 4 or 5 mana.

Yes, Carpet of Flowers alleviates that problem Game 2 and 3. Which makes that SB card much better suited with a Wish-less build, though there has been a successful Burning Wish build a month ago that had a single CoF in their board (as far as how it did in actual play, I would have no idea)

There's still the biggest problem IMO, which is mulligans. Of course, I may just be unlucky with my openings, but I am curious as to how the math works out.

Anyone can shed some light to this? Of course we have to take into consideration that out of 12 cantrips in the wish-less build, 4 of them are "situational" cantrips (Manamorphose - since it's not free). I'm not a mathematician so I dunno what to make of it haha

[Vacrix]

Perhaps you aren't running Reforge the Soul. Its a decent replacement for Burning Wish. Both are counterable, but you can even leave in Reforge post-board, and have lots of 'oops I win' situations that you can even sit up with Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library.

[SBGpinas]

Perhaps you aren't running Reforge the Soul. Its a decent replacement for Burning Wish. Both are counterable, but you can even leave in Reforge post-board, and have lots of 'oops I win' situations that you can even sit up with Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library.

To be honest, I'm not a big fan of Reforge the Soul. It's pretty much a gamble as well, as not only are you hoping that the next 7 cards will enable you to win outright, but also that your opponent doesn't draw into any answers.

However, I do see the merit of it in the Wish-less build. It pretty much serves the same role as Diminishing Returns in the wishboard.

[karaxu]

I must say I am interested in going with the "man plan" or lets just say a transformational sideboard for Belcher.

Deus of Calamity or Demigod of Revenge are good creatures but is really fragile IMO. A well timed removal spell and our advantage is lost. So for the creature plan Thrun would seem be the best choice. And also I think whatever you board into must either stick or provide enough advantage to you and I thought of planeswalkers!

So assuming a wishless build with the 12 cantrips as the main deck. Here is how I would build it.

OUT:
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Lion's Eye Diamond

IN:
4 Carpet of Flowers - already discussed.
3 Taiga / 2 Taiga 1 Fetchland - I feel we need to add more permanent mana.
3 Garruk, Primal Hunter - Makes Beasts, Draws Cards.
2 Thrun, the Last Troll - He Sticks and He beats.
1 Chandra Ablaze - Not too sure about this but I wouldn't want to play 4 Garruks, Plus her 2nd ability lets us disrupt and draw at the same time.
2 Xantid Swarm - Just a fail safe, as we still have the Empty the Warrens route to win.

Still Considering:
Garruk Relentless - I still like Primal Hunter Better but if 3 Green Mana would be an issue (I am assuming it is not thanks to Manamorphose) then he might be worth trying.
Demigod of Revenge - When the meta runs less swords to plowshares, he may be the guy for the job.

The problem would still be resolving the planeswalkers, so maybe up Thrun's count to 3?
Completely untested. Just theorizing here. Thoughts?

[Vacrix]

Well the point of the creature plan is that it dodges Spell Pierce, Burn, and what I didn't mention, Counterbalance. To play through Counterbalance/Top with BW or Empty is basically impossible. However, the 5cc dudes dodge it quite nicely. Provided you can get a lot of perpetual resources, you blank Spell Pierce, Burn spells, Spell Snare, Flusterstorm. Against RUG/UR that leaves just Force to hold you back. Seems good. Against the UW variations popping up, you have a better long game than Belcher normally does, I'd even leave in the Belchers for that match since if it resolves, they usually don't have the clock to kill you and you can activate multiple times if you can resolve Carpet. Even if you can't, post-board lands + Chrome Mox can produce quite a bit of mana. Also, UW has access to STP, Counterspell, and often Snapcaster so they have a lot more options to hold you back. Thrun will be strong in this matchup.

The problem with Planeswalkers is that they are still vulnerable to Burn and Spell Pierce. Also, Demigod can return other Demigods that your opponent already killed or countered, meaning that in a sense, its just as good as Thrun. I'd actually say a combination of Thruns and Demigods is the best choice. Also, I'm thinking that its worth going up to 2 Taiga's in the maindeck. After all, the deck used to be called two-land Belcher. I know it increases your chances of misfire, but it saves you an entire slot in the board for something else, especially when the Belchers are coming out for something else.

For example,
Maindeck:
(standard wishless list)
2 Taigas

SB:
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Demigod of Revenge
2 Deus of Calamity
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Worldly Tutor
2 Taiga


Postboard that gives you the following perpetual resources:
4 Taiga
4 Land Grant
4 Chrome Mox
4 Carpet of Flowers

16 is huge. You don't even need rituals at that point. Even so, 12 of these cards contribute to a storm count and stick around to ensure you'll have multiple combo attempts.

Business after post-board:
4 Demigod
2 Deus of Calamity
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Empty the Warrens
1 Worldly Tutor

17 business is pretty solid in supporting 16 perpetual resources, Carpet being the strongest and single handily casting some of these dudes. Now, Demigod is psuedo-uncounterable in upon being cast he brings back guys. Then you have 6 other non-counterable spells, ie. Empty the Warrens and Thrun. So thats 10 spells that are resistant to countermagic.. to different degrees. Demigod is still counterable so you need to run into multiples for him to be the most effective. I don't like Thrun in more than 2 because you don't want to run into him instead of another dude. Also, Empty the Warrens is still counterable via Flusterstorm. Worldly Tutor is a Demigod virtual copy for when you've already played one and want something that flies instead of Thrun. Also, it finds Thrun for when thats a better choice, ie. the opponent has removal spells but not countermagic. Deus is pretty beast as shutting down the opponents mana base, per hit, allows you to solidify your position as your opponent scrambles to cantrip, play creatures, etc. and have mana open to counter whatever else you have to play.



I think that the Worldly Tutor option is something we might want to explore in more depth. For example, this alternative has peaked my interest:

SB:
4 Carpet of Flowers
2 Taiga

4 Demigod of Revenge
2 Worldly Tutor
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Goblin Chieftain/Goblin Lookout/Sulfur ElementalOpen slot

Magus is nice for shutting down an opponent who gets greedy with duals, while they stick to a gameplan of keeping Carpet of Flowers off the table. Thrun, is an obvious choice, but limiting the number of Thruns to one, and then running +2 virtual copies instead seems better. Also, Goblin Chieftain seems good if you manage to sneak in an Empty the Warrens. Also, this version would get to run 4 + 2 (virtual) Demigods, which means it gains a bit more value when you start hitting those perpetual resources. Goblin Lookout is just as good if not better since each goblin nets you more damage. Sulfur Elemental also fucks with Thalia, Lingering Souls, Squadron Hawks, etc.




Also, this plan is effective in different ways against different decks. UW control variants have access to swords to plowshares and usually pretty awesome board locking situations like Counterbalance, or Terminus to wipe tokens, etc. However, they need lots of mana to function, so Carpet of Flowers gains a lot of value. Also, these decks can deal with Thrun only with Terminus, nothing else, but it can still be a very effective way to get in there. Against decks like RUG/UR control, they function on very few lands, sometimes just one or two. UR usually plays basics as well though, so they can function pretty well with just one Island. RUG usually plays a purely non-basic mana base, meaning that Carpet of Flowers is pretty awesome, but it produces less mana than it typically would against UW control; also RUG/UR often play Daze so they can sandbag you on Carpet if they know what they are doing. UW control variants do not have this advantage. Also, UW control plays a LONG game, so you have a lot of time to do stuff like Demigod tricks, where they Forced one Demigod and then ran into another one only to find 10 power swinging at their face. So Demigod is good in the long game,

[Togores]

I think the best idea is to run 4 thrun due its the best creature that you can play against control deck, they have realy hard time removing it. and usualy its gg agaianst.
planeswalkers can be counterer with for or spell pierce, wich he obius is gonna have, but thrun is only killed by terminus and is near impoisble to outrace if its turn 1 o or 2.


And insted of playing so many taigas i would play at least one forest, due it gets mana for our cards like carpet, sylvan and thrunn.

I think the perfect plan is playing 2 forest and 1 taiga in board.

4 thrun
4 carpets
4 wordly tutot
2 forest
1 taiga


The main plan is thrun and it should enoughtly good vs control. to winn with ease.

[Vacrix]

You could, but what happens when you play against BUG control and they turn 1 Innocent Blood? You need back up plans. 4 Thrun is also redundant. I'd rather play 4 Worldly Tutors, 1 Thrun that way you can have 5 of them without running into hands like 3 Thruns in hand, and 2 of them are just dead cards. Also, Terminus is still a thing. I think that Demigod was the best thing we've thought of so far. You see it might be swords-material, but if they counter it because they don't have swords at the time, then when you get the second one, its more effective. Against UR(g) thats not the case though because they only have Burn, but Burn + Delver still trades with just about anything we could try to play. Still, each creature has its advantages against different decks. For example, against RUG that plays Goyf, Thrun is basically useless. Against, Stoneforge mystic with a Batterskull equipped, Thrun is doesn't do anything but block Batterskull. Demigod flies though. Thats huge, on top of him bringing his friends back to life. This means, Demigod is usually going to be better in a long game overall, even against UW, because of the countermagic vs. STP case I mentioned earlier, while Thrun is not something you want to go for as the primary game plan against RUG because they can just bust out Goyf and then block it all day while Delver and reach spells kick your ass.


I made some edits on card choices above, but COMPLETELY forgot to mention that Worldly Tutor is awesome because it can also be a mana source, ie. Worldly Tutor --> Tinder wall.




EDIT:
Also, Wickerbough Elder seems pretty legit as well for when we want to get rid of a Batterskull, Counterbalance (so we can cast an EtW), etc.

[karaxu]

I completely forgot about spell pierce for a moment there, point taken. Planeswalkers may not be the way to go.

So I guess Thrun is the #1 candidate the question is how many and who to back him up Demigod seems good or another Hexproof/Shroud or uncounterable dude.

[Vacrix]

I think I've settled on testing this board (with the 2 Taiga, BW-less maindeck):

SB:
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Demigod of Revenge
3 Worldly Tutor
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
2 Taiga



7 Demigods post-board is NUTS. Its gives you a really good chance of running into a second one. The deck will still have 17 business postboard, and 16 perpetual resources. Thats basically what I play in PSI post-board so I think it should work here; I play 18 business and 16 perpetual resources. The advantage of the SI game plan, however, is that the business costs consistently less than it does in this Belcher game plan; ie. 8 3cc spells, 3 2cc spells, and 7 4cc spells.




Also, as far as boarding IN/OUT is concerned.. I initially said that Belchers should come out. I still believe that but only against non-UW control decks. Against UW, Terminus is a thing, and so is Flusterstorm and Snapcaster. I think that Belcher might actually be stronger in that specific matchup, even with 4 lands in the deck, we can't forget that they are mountains and that there are 4 LG to search them up. Also, against UW you will usually have extra time for multiple activations while RUG doesn't usually allow you that much time.

[karaxu]

Did a quick search for hexproof/shroud guys like Thrun.

Is Quagnoth worth a shot?

@Vacrix, list looks solid, please update us of your testing :smile:

[Vacrix]

Indeed I will.


Quagnoth is meh. Its significantly more expensive than Thrun (by 2), and is much easier to kill given that he doesn't have Regeneration. For that kind of mana, I'd rather look at Terrastomper. 3GGG for an 8/8 Trampler, uncounterable? Sounds legit. Still, I think that Wickerbough Elder is probably the best choice for his slot considering an active Batterskull shuts down this play pretty hard, ie. winning the race against a single Demigod, EtW tokens, or just blocking Thrun all day, bouncing and replaying Batterskull with SFM. Also, Elder actually has a good amount of P/T to contribute to a beat down plan, unlike an alternative such as Ingot Chewer, which is more suitable for destroying shit like Chalice of the Void.



EDIT:
Just wanted to point out that Worldly Tutor adds more Shuffle effects to the deck, making Mirri's Guile more attractive for people who enjoy playing that in their board.

[Damoxx]

6-3 @ SCG: MN (42nd place)

Wins: DnT, Omni-Tell, Rug x2, UBR ANT, High Tide
Losses: EsperBlade, Stax, Rug w/ Stifle

Against Omnitell, I got to live the dream of my opponent casting SnT against my board of tinder wall while I am holding an ESG and Belcher.

I feel that the surprise element really helped me in game ones. G.Probe-ing people turn one and finding no counters while they are playing blue was always a great feeling.

I felt myself really wanting Autumn's veil against RUG. While Pyroblast is more flexible, I'd rather "chant" them for a turn rather than have a counter up. Also, by keeping swarm out of the deck against RUG, it negates all their removal that they didn't side out.

[Darklingske]

Nice results! Especially against RUG! What was your decklist going into the tournament and what would you change now? I know you want Autumn's Veil in your SB, since you said it :smile:

[Damoxx]

Pretty Standard 1-Land

4 Rite of Flame
4 LED
4 Petal
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
8 Spirit Guide
4 Manamorphose
4 Tinder Wall
4 G.Probe
4 Burning Wish
4 Land Grant
4 Belcher
3 EtW
1 Taiga

SB:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Pyroblast
1 Shattering Spree
1 EtW
1 Reverant Silence
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Traitorous Blood
1 Pyroclasm
1 Traitorous Blood(really wanted to cast it, never got the chance :( )

If I was to do it again I'd probably cut Pyroblast for Veil and cut Hull Breach for Diminishing Returns/Infernal Tutor. With veil I'd much rather be pro-active than reactive when it comes to counterspells. More often than not, my opponent had 1 counter that he was leaning on then digging for more with Brainstorm/Ponder.

In summary:
Xantid Swarm vs SnT decks
Veil vs RUG
Pyroblast vs CB/Top (but you do have reverent silence in the board and you should be going off before CB in on the board)

[SFCD]

Couple of questions, if I may:
-What are the advantages of non-LED lists beyond financial? I play a non-LED list online because LEDs are even more prohibitively expensive online and the only advantage to it that I've found is that it's more consistent (I run 11 cantrips: 4 Manamorphose, 4 Probe, 3 Street Wraith).
-I've been running Damoxx's exact 75 (great list and congrats on your strong showing, btw) and the only issue I've found is that, without Seething Song, it's sometimes hard to get to enough mana to Wish and Warrens (i.e.,six mana).Obviously, LED (and the LED stack trick) work well with Wish but, without and LED in hand, I sometimes "fizzle" at five mana while trying to ramp to Wish and Warren mana. Have you had this experience as well?

[Damoxx]

In regards to Seething Song, I feel that it is more of a big risk/reward type play. Top decking a seething song with a belcher on the table and 1-2 mana available is the worst feeling in the world.

LED is an amazing top deck all the time. I have won many a game by having a belcher on the table after turn one, only to draw an LED. Which reminds me, during the SCG Open, I got cliqued in my draw step (I drew LED) while belcher was on the table. The clique draw was LED. :laugh:

[yankeedave]

Just a quick tale for you folks, since you rarely get "Oh cool" plays in Belcher.

Game 3 against High Tide. I am on the draw and my opponent has led with the expected "Island, go" play. I draw for the turn, it's a Probe. Probe my opponent, see Flusterstorm and a load of nothing. I draw an SSG off the Probe and proceed to go "Remove 4 Spirit Guides, make Belcher, make LED, activate, kill you?"

Best.Kill.Ever.

[Final Fortune]

Cutting Seething Song and Lion's Eye Diamond makes Burning Wish unplayable, do the math and you'll see what I mean.

I really think all of the cantrips are terrible in Belcher, I'd probably take Grim Monolith or Chancellor of the Tangle just so I can better judge my mulligans. If you keep one of those Street Wraith hands and just need "1 more" mana sources, you just end up fucking yourself completely the times you cycle into the 2nd Land Grant etc. and let your opponet drop that island to get Spell Pierce and Daze online.

[GoldenCid]

I'd never consider cutting song or led they simply get you there. Provides enought mana to make wish worth ot activate belcher. I think that they are almost irreplaceable. And, in my experience, getting 3 mana is too easy. Monolith shew to be decent but in a 4 / no cantrip version.
One card I dismissed is reforge the soul main deck. It simply gives you opo answers while going off or provides a higher storm count in game where you dont really need to. As side choice is decent even more than pif.

[John Cox]

I don't have the cards for belcher any more, but when I did I used serum powder religiously. It was amazing in pretty much every tournament I went to. I only played 4 cantrips with serum powder but I would recommend that to anyone picking up the deck.

[GoldenCid]

I don't have the cards for belcher any more, but when I did I used serum powder religiously. It was amazing in pretty much every tournament I went to. I only played 4 cantrips with serum powder but I would recommend that to anyone picking up the deck. I used to run powder. I arrived to two main conclusions: it increases the chance to win via belcher but its a terrible topdeck.

[John Cox]

I used to run powder. I arrived to two main conclusions: it increases the chance to win via belcher but its a terrible topdeck.
You nailed it.

[GoldenCid]

1 Traitorous Blood


Interesting inclusion...i think Act of Treason fits a bit better...in which creature was you think at the time of include this card?

[John Cox]

Traitorous Blood

///Vs

Act of Treason



Traitorous blood is close enough and gives trample.

[GoldenCid]

Traitorous Blood

///Vs

Act of Treason



Traitorous blood is close enough and gives trample.

Well, but if you will "steal" a huge creature i think trample is irrelevant...anyway i doesnt work for emrakul or progenitus....griselbrand is the best guy we can steal?

[feline]

Tyler King
10th place at a StarCityGames.com Legacy Open tournament in Indianapolis, Indiana, United States on 2012-10-21

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50199

lol@sideboard:
1 Atog
1 Auratog
1 Chronatog
1 Foratog
1 Lithatog
1 Megatog
1 Necratog
1 Phantatog
1 Psychatog
1 Sarcatog
1 Steamflogger Boss
1 Thaumatog
1 Atogatog
1 Chandler
1 Goblin Game

[Esper3k]

Tyler King
10th place at a StarCityGames.com Legacy Open tournament in Indianapolis, Indiana, United States on 2012-10-21

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50199

lol@sideboard:
1 Atog
1 Auratog
1 Chronatog
1 Foratog
1 Lithatog
1 Megatog
1 Necratog
1 Phantatog
1 Psychatog
1 Sarcatog
1 Steamflogger Boss
1 Thaumatog
1 Atogatog
1 Chandler
1 Goblin Game

Hah yeah I saw that - amazing tech!

[GGoober]

Tyler King
10th place at a StarCityGames.com Legacy Open tournament in Indianapolis, Indiana, United States on 2012-10-21

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50199

lol@sideboard:
1 Atog
1 Auratog
1 Chronatog
1 Foratog
1 Lithatog
1 Megatog
1 Necratog
1 Phantatog
1 Psychatog
1 Sarcatog
1 Steamflogger Boss
1 Thaumatog
1 Atogatog
1 Chandler
1 Goblin Game

Rofl, he really went AiB (All In Belcher)

[oarsman]

Here is a link to an article I wrote on analyzing the charbelcher maindeck, if anyone is interested. You do need to scroll down an inch to find the start. Sorry, we are still figuring things out over there.

http://blog.mtgdeals.com/oarsman/rebuilding-legacy-charbelcher/

[sconnell]

Here is a link to an article I wrote on analyzing the charbelcher maindeck.

This is a valuable contribution - it's worth questioning assumptions like either 8 or 11 win conditions being correct. A few comments:

- Playing less than the maximum Empty the Warrens (4, or 3 with wish) seems bad, since Empty can allow you to win through Force of Will, and also costs less as a win condition than Wish (which effectively costs 6.) For 10 win conditions, I'd suggest 4 Belcher 3 Empty 3 Wish, like the Ghent list.
- I think the conclusion that belcher builds with <7 average mana in an opening hand don't work seems too strong. First, you're often winning off Goblins. Second, turn 1 Belcher turn 2 activate (possibly with untapping a land/mox, and possibly after drawing another mana spell) is still going to win you the game a lot of the time. It might be worth also calculating total mana by turn 2. I can respect the approach of trying to maximise turn 1 kills, but a lot of the time a turn 2 belcher activation will get you there too.
- How many Chrome Mox to play is tricky. On the one hand, you never really want to draw more than one. On the other hand, drawing one can be really good since it's an initial mana source, and also it can untap into the possible turn 2 belcher activation. <4 Chromes means you draw two less often, but you also get one less often.

[SBGpinas]

Actually, EtW wins can be stopped by FoW...

What some people don't realize is that blue players with a lot of experience against Belcher will counter the Ritual that brings you to 4 mana in the pool instead of holding it for the kill card

Of course, if a Spirit Guide brings you to 4 mana instead of a Ritual effect, then yes, EtW can power through FoW, but instances like that aren't too common...

There is also the opening if you have a Wish instead of EtW in hand, but that's a totally different matter altogether.

[Asthereal]

There is a disadvantage to the in hand EtW: you cannot use LED to cast it.
Wish into EtW does make use of the LED mana, so to optimize the LED, you need 4x Wish and 2x EtW.
I'm not saying that 4x Wish & 2x EtW is correct, just that we have something else to take into account.

If we find that the 'LED doesn't help cast the win'-argument is not a real problem, we can actually go -1 Belcher!
I'm serious. Belcher is terrible in multiples, and winning with it costs 7 mana, where winning with EtW or Wish into EtW costs max 6 mana, so Belcher is the hardest one to cast and use on turn 1. I would suggest we test 3x Belcher, 4x Wish, 3x EtW as a kill package if we decide 10 is the optimal number. Of course Belcher is the only card that actually kills on turn 1, but in the current meta a turn 1 EtW of 10 seems enough to win over 90% of your games, so perhaps the disadvantages of Belcher justify dropping one.

[oarsman]

sconnell, I accept that there are numerous situations where having Empty in hand can be valuable. It's a tradeoff with more Wishes allowing the mana to function better since you can use LED. And yes I know you win a lot of games without Belcher, so you don't always need 7 mana. My feeling is that the mana boost to a 7+ average is sitting out there at no cost: you don't have to give anything up to receive it.

And the mana boost is not just about having access to 7+ in a regular hand. It is also about having access to 6+ on a mulligan, so that you can still expect to be able to Wish-Empty.

asthereal, the problem I see in potentially cutting a belcher is Miracles. If you are going second, and they have access to a Tundra, a Brainstorm, and there is a Terminus in the top 10 cards of their deck, then your Empty will not do any damage. I realize Miracles is probably a rough matchup anyway, but I don't want to make a sacrifice unless it gives me solid gains elsewhere, and I'm not sure that this does.

[Asthereal]

Miracles only plays 3x Terminus, and in this case they'd need both in the opening hand, or be very lucky and draw into one or the other. And we can still go for Belcher (3x main, and we can just play the fourth in the side for the MU's we really need it against).
I at least think it's an interesting idea to cut a Belcher. Of course it's our best kill, but it does have the two mentioned disadvantages.

Edit: and before I forget, Miracles has no clock at all, so as long as they don't draw into CounterTop, we have time to recover from a miss from EtW. When they are low on life from some Goblin hits, you can afterwards hit them with a small Tendrils or a perhaps a somewhat larger Grapeshot. :wink:

[sconnell]

sconnell, I accept that there are numerous situations where having Empty in hand can be valuable. It's a tradeoff with more Wishes allowing the mana to function better since you can use LED.

4 mana is pretty easy to reach, so Empty is easy to cast - often castable even with an LED sitting in hand that does nothing other than add to storm count. As there are only 4 LED in the deck, I'm not sure if playing Wish because it works better with LED is worth it.


My feeling is that the mana boost to a 7+ average is sitting out there at no cost: you don't have to give anything up to receive it.

Unless you're substituting a strictly superior card in, there's always a cost. When it comes to substituting Seething Song for Chrome Mox, you're giving up an initial mana source (and one which can produce 2 mana over 2 turns.) Substituting Song for Pyretic Ritual is bad in corner cases where you can get to 2 mana but not 3. This doesn't mean it's not worth doing, but I'd be careful suggesting that there's no cost.

Seething Song is a bit like Chrome Mox in that drawing multiples can be bad - the more Seething Song you have in hand, the more likely it is that you can't get to 3 mana to start casting them. This makes me wonder whether the optimal number of songs is some number less than 4.


And the mana boost is not just about having access to 7+ in a regular hand. It is also about having access to 6+ on a mulligan, so that you can still expect to be able to Wish-Empty.

This is a really important point - the "per 6" figures are really important, too. "average total mana by turn 2" might also be worth mathing out, to see how often you have 7 mana by turn 2. The calculations would need to be a bit different here, since Chrome Mox/Land Grant/Taiga can produce >1 mana over 2 turns.

Here's another way of looking at the general point about mana and deck construction.
The majority of mana cards in Belcher only generate one additional mana most (if not all) of the time - Spirit Guides, Land Grant, Taiga, Pyretic/Desperate Ritual, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, Rite of Flame. Some versions play <4 LED and Seething Song, which are +2 mana.
To activate Belcher on turn 1, you need 7 mana.
With Belcher in hand, you only have 6 cards to make 7 mana - which is a problem if most of the cards in your deck only make one mana.

re: cutting Belcher - since the general theme of this discussion is that there are no sacred cows, it's worth at least thinking about. At the end of the day, I think Belcher wins out because it has superior reach and allows turn 1 kills. It also allows you to spread the 7 mana over 2 turns so you can get multiple mana out of a Mox/Taiga.

[ahg113]

So happy discussion about this deck is current again. There was a lot of steam a few months ago and it tapered off.

The article is groovy. I don't necessarily agree with everything, but i have trouble counting to 7, so the advanced statistics make my brain melt.

That said, I'm of a mind to stray from the pack when it comes to Belcher, I'm a huge fan of Reforge the Soul. It's not a kill card, but it's pseudo, and I forsake Burning Wish. (True story, I built Belcher because I owned 1 Taiga and 4 Burning Wishes and I wanted to crack into Legacy, now it's my a sparkle in my eye.) Burning Wish to me just screams counter me, or counter what is grabbed. Why have 7 EtW with 4 being conditional, when you can just have 4 EtW straight up. (To get that magical 6 mana instant kill, I copied someone playing 2 Goblin Bushwhacker for EtW tricks.) I find that RtS also gives more life to our LED's rather than just Belcher enablers, float in response.

My second huge stray from the pack, sb like crazy to improve my counterspell matchups. I'm in love with Carpet of Flowers & Mirri's Guile (F'u Jace Fateseal). Demigod of Revenge is better than bad as most folks side out removal unless it's mass. Thrun is a champ, and a Wickerbough Elder just because sometimes somethings gotta get got. Against U/W EtW comes out. Against other decks most likely Belcher get's sided. And if I side out Belchers, def siding in more land, sometimes I do that anyway.

While I read the article, I don't understand why Chrome Mox isn't favored. I'd rather 4 Mox and less Seething Song, as that screams to get countered too and usually takes ramping to get to. In my list, I also dropped Tinder Wall, a few times I was screwed for playing it before combo'ing out, felt less than ideal. Sometimes it's the suck, but I don't find it to be terribly too often. By that point, something is wrong because the game isn't over in the first 6 turns, extra chrome mox or not.

Enough rambling, I was inspired by Vacrix too, he get's props(/slops) for this decklist in absentia

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
2 Seething Song
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Rite of Flame
4 Land Grant
4 Empty the Warrens
3 Reforge the Soul
1 Taiga
4 Street Wraith
SB: 4 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Mirri's Guile
SB: 4 Demigod of Revenge
SB: 1 Taiga
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 Wickerbough Elder


I will say that I just exchanged Street Wraith for Manamorphose. The article made a light go off- why the hell am I playing Manamorphose? I'm not color fixing, looking to set up Tendrils or Diminishing Wishes so... And spending two mana for a counterable cantrip storm enhancer isn't worth it. The two life for Street Wraith... well, I was gonna die to an aggressive deck anyway if I didn't combo, so what's the difference?

Cheers,
Glass Cannon goes BOOM!

[Demonic_Attorney]

Enough rambling, I was inspired by Vacrix too, he get's props(/slops) for this decklist in absentia

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
2 Seething Song
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Rite of Flame
4 Land Grant
4 Empty the Warrens
3 Reforge the Soul
1 Taiga
4 Street Wraith
SB: 4 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Mirri's Guile
SB: 4 Demigod of Revenge
SB: 1 Taiga
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 Wickerbough Elder


I will say that I just exchanged Street Wraith for Manamorphose. The article made a light go off- why the hell am I playing Manamorphose? I'm not color fixing, looking to set up Tendrils or Diminishing Wishes so... And spending two mana for a counterable cantrip storm enhancer isn't worth it. The two life for Street Wraith... well, I was gonna die to an aggressive deck anyway if I didn't combo, so what's the difference?

Cheers,
Glass Cannon goes BOOM!

Goblin Bushwhacker should not make the cut and in my view, is a wasted spot in a deck that is already tight for precious space. It is not tier one card, in this deck or otherwise. There are so many other more viable cards for this deck right now. For example, look at any GP or SCG Belcher decks that have top 16; Bushwhacker is conspicuously absent in all those deck lists and I would submit for very good reason. I am sure a person could come up with tangible arguments for its inclusion; however, the fact remains that the cons manifestly out way to pros when it comes to this card in this deck.

Furthermore, I strongly believe that three (3) Reforge the Soul is too many; you may seriously want to consider reducing the number of same.

[adamliniscus]

I played this list at SCG LA yesterday, finished 17th out of 266.

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

4 Land Grant
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
1 Taiga

4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
1 Pyretic Ritual

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall

3 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Goblin Charbelcher

Sideboard:
4 Autumn's Veil
4 Carpet of Flowers
1 Forest
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
Wishboard:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony

---

Here's a quick summary of what I faced and how I fared
Round 1 - Merfolk - (Won 2-0)
Round 2 - U/W Helm/RIP Combo - (Won 2-1)
Round 3 - Omniscience - (Won 2-1)
Round 4 - BUG (Lost 0-2)
Round 5 - Death and Taxes (Won 2-1)
Round 6 - B/R/W Zombies (Won 2-1)
Round 7 - Sneak/Show (Won 2-1)
Round 8 - Aggro Loam (Lost 0-2)
Round 9 - Deadguy Ale (ID to assure mutual top 32)


After 7 rounds I was 6-1-0 in matches and looking for my win-and-in. In Round 8 I was paired up against my friend Tony DeVeyra, playing aggro loam. We discussed an ID and I decided I wanted to play it out, since Belcher is favored in the match. Tony won the die roll and I took a mulligan to 6 (no win conditions in my opening 7). He leads with T1 Deathrite Shaman, pass. I go LG -> Taiga, Chrome Mox imprinting SSG, Chrome Mox imprinting ESG, Lotus Petal, play Charbelcher. Seems good, right? Tony responds on his turn by Wastelanding my Taiga, getting a mana from it with the shaman, and blowing up both of my Chrome Moxes with an EE for 0. Seems bad, right? Next turn he pulses my Belcher and I'm too far behind to recover. Game 2 I punted by holding back a Chrome Mox when I was storming for Goblins. I anticipated him blowing up my Goblins, so I wanted the Chrome Mox for a future attack, but his Deathrite Shamans seriously swung the match in his favor - block a goblin and gain 2 life negates 3 attacking goblins each turn, and if I had played out the Chrome Mox (with nothing to imprint upon it) I would have done exactly the 4 extra damage needed to kill him. I learned the hard way just how good that shaman is.

I'm very disappointed that I missed out on the Top 8, but at least I lost to a friend who knows and plays his deck well and not to some scrub sporting the RUG/BUG Delver flavor-of-the-week garbage that these events are rife with. My other loss was to Jack Fogle in Round 4, who ended up winning the whole event.

Some other memorable plays of the day:
Round 2 vs. U/W RIP/Helm combo - Game 3 I make a bunch of Goblins and she Detention Spheres them after taking a bunch of damage. I have Forest, Taiga in play, and my next two topdecks are Carpet of Flowers followed by Belcher. Better to be lucky than good!
Round 3 vs. Omniscience - Game 2 I lose to triple thoughtseize with force of will backup. Game 3 I decide to keep a hand with no win conditions because, well, they're just gonna get thoughtseized anyway. Slow rolled him with ESG/SSG beats and win off a late ETW for 6.

---

Some comments about the direction this thread has taken, and my sideboard choices:
- Joe, thank you for writing that article on Belcher. My first experience playing this deck was at a Knight Ware event that I showed up to hungover and deckless. I borrowed Ben Perry's and had a blast. I hadn't thought too much about changing the maindeck except for the addition of Probes (when NPH was printed) and a brief stint with Reforge the Soul last summer (which by the way, is total garbage; even as a Wish target, Diminishing Returns is better). Your article is thought-provoking and convinced me to drop one win condition from the standard 11 in the wish build; as you can see my maindeck above is -1 Burning Wish and +1 Pyretic Ritual. In my experience yesterday, there was no point at which I wished the Pyretic Ritual was a Burning Wish, and I didn't see any triple-win-condition auto-mulligan hands like I sometimes do with 11 in the deck.
- I disagree strongly about cutting Chrome Moxes; if you're gonna cut any at all, play no less than 3. The deck absolutely needs permanent mana sources to beat blue decks in games 2 and 3, and Chrome Mox is one of our best (i.e. it doesn't die to Wasteland).
- By the way, I implore all of you playing a Taiga or Bayou or whatever other duals you're playing in the board to switch to a basic forest. It is invincible (i.e. un-wastelandable) and has won me more games than any sideboard card besides the 4th ETW.
- 3 or 4 is the correct number of Carpet of Flowers to play in the board, depending on the matchups you expect. I wouldn't bring more than 3 in against Show and Tell decks or Canadian Thresh, because they operate on so few Islands and you need to beat them fast. Yesterday I never brought in all 4, but I would definitely want all 4 against U/W Miracles.
- Veil is disgustingly good but I have yet to board in all 4, so maybe one could be cut to free up a sideboard slot.
- Sylvan Library is also awesome and helps you recover from getting Thoughtseized on T1 or Hymned on T2. A lot of the time, Belcher can lose to B/X discard decks on the basis of the die roll, and Library gives you some serious recovery power. I was going to play two in the board but Jacob Kory convinced me to switch one to a Mirri's Guile at the last second. Guile was also good, and the difference in mana cost is relevant. I might try cutting a Veil to get the second Sylvan Library back in the board, because nothing matches it in terms of raw card drawing power within our colors.
- About the man-plan: it seems interesting, but none of the creatures people run in the sideboard impress me all that much. How exactly are we supposed to take advantage of Demigod's CIP ability if we can't reliably get all the Demigods in the graveyard? T1 Seething Song out Demigod is pretty weak, when you could just be winning the game on T1. One card that interests me for a man-plan is Hidden Gibbons. Anybody thought about that?

That's all for now folks, thanks for reading.

[ahg113]

@adamliniscus: Major congrats on your finish.
The man-plan is strictly for U-control type decks. Not sure I'd bother bringing in guys against RUG/BUG, just Guile's and Carpets. At the SCG Baltimore event, the man plan almost got there with a turn 1 Demigod against UW Miracles. An unexpected sword (reserved for Xanthid Swarm) saved him the game, then Jace landed and sad face. Demigod is the biggest recursive threat that didn't die to Bolt, and makes counters less effective. True there's no Buried Alive effect to cheat them in but the red casting cost, and quick clock I found effective. Wickerbough more for utility, and Thrun because I can only play 4 Demigod.

@Demonic_Attorney: I feel you on the Bushwhacker. It's a win more card, as getting to six mana with 5 cards (or 6 on the draw) isn't always doable for a cute trick. I did get the idea for it from a decklist that either won or high topped some while back, prolly in Europe as the council was my source. In my experience, it gets tossed to chrome mox more often than not. However, it does change the math, and it's easy enough with a permanent mana source and something else to hit two red to cast a turn after gobo's are in play to swing in your favor. As a two of, not sure what I'd replace with, prolly seething song or manamorphose.
In regards to RtS, not sure I agree with you. Maybe in the instance that going to 10 wincons is better than 11, and RtS isn't a real wincon anyway, I'm not sad to see them in my hand. They don't always fire, but it get's there more often than fizzling.

My meta in the Northeast has a lot of blue control. Getting spells countered is a frequent thing, having the ability to reload (RtS) has proved important, and being able to change strategies has also proved beneficial. If I were playing against more fair decks, I'd tend to like the Burning Wish solution better.

[feline]

For those that are still pushing belcher, best of luck to you, I have set my belcher deck aside & I am no longer pushing it, unfortunately for belcher, my local metagames just have more blue than anything else, so I can't really push it there but once in a great while just as a surprise factor when most everyone doesn't expect it, at bigger events I did let a friend borrow Belcher for the Los Angeles Open last week, but they only walked out with a 4 win 5 loss record, saying they kept running into people with force of will's as well.

In either case, this deck was the hardest of all the decks I've let go recently because it's my first real legacy / type 1.5 deck, since I've basically had some version of a belcher deck, all the way back when it used to be 2 land belcher before it became what it is now. So for those still playing it, good luck out there and keep throwing people for a loop when they don't see it coming!

In belcher's defense at bigger tourneys however, it did get 10th in Las Vegas!

[Vacrix]

Wow it only took 3-4 years for Belcher players to catch on to Carpet of Flowers tech at an SCG. I'd actually prefer the 2nd library to Guile. Guile is better if you want to play Reforge the Soul since you rearrange the cards in the upkeep while Library works out of the draw phase. Forest is definitely a strong SB choice I can get behind. If you want to cast Carpet, Veil, ie. your entire sideboard, you need that basic forest in there to ensure you the perp.

How often were Tendrils/IT used out of the board? My guess is not a single time. I'd probably use those slots for something like Shatterstorm/Reverent Silence.

The list looks good though. I can agree on 10 vs. 11 win conditions being a good configuration.

[Koby]

Wow it only took 3-4 years for Belcher players to catch on to Carpet of Flowers tech at an SCG. I'd actually prefer the 2nd library to Guile. Guile is better if you want to play Reforge the Soul since you rearrange the cards in the upkeep while Library works out of the draw phase. Forest is definitely a strong SB choice I can get behind. If you want to cast Carpet, Veil, ie. your entire sideboard, you need that basic forest in there to ensure you the perp.

How often were Tendrils/IT used out of the board? My guess is not a single time. I'd probably use those slots for something like Shatterstorm/Reverent Silence.

The list looks good though. I can agree on 10 vs. 11 win conditions being a good configuration.

Since you showed me that sideboard earlier this year, I've been encouraging local players to run it. So far, it seems that your message channeled through me has worked. Let's keep it up!

[Vacrix]

Good shit dude. Lets keep the channel rolling.

Its about time Belcher players actually cared about their sideboards. You only REALLY need Burning Wish for Empty the Warrens. The other 14 slots are contested. I think this board config will probably be standard sideboard tech pretty soon:

Sideboard:
4 Autumn's Veil
4 Carpet of Flowers
1 Forest
2 Sylvan Library
Wishboard:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Shattering Spree
1 Reverent Silence


Reverent Silence/Grapeshot/Shattering Spree makes sense because then you can deal with every type of hate. The 11 cards is roughly around how many cards Belcher wants to board in; You don't want to dilute your deck too much. 4 Carpets come in to replace Seething Song as acceleration. Forest/Library/Veils come in to replace cyclers.

Another card to look at is Lotus Bloom. If you wait to go off, you can do crazy things with Autumn's Veil... or you can play around soft permission with the rest of your mana sources.. then Black Lotus resolves and you win. It might even be better than Carpet of Flowers given that Belcher wants to run Veil post-board.

[oarsman]

How often are you using grapeshot to clear out hatebears? Several other cards like pyroclasm, chain lightning, or cave-in seem better.

[Vacrix]

Perhaps because Grapeshot also functions as reach and can clear the way for your tokens if your opponent has a team to block them. You could easily play Pyroclasm in that slot but then you'd lose the reach and when you play it.. you blow up all your own tokens. The other options you mentioned are probably just as good though considering the wishboard is rarely used anyway. But having the reach option to get the last few points of damage or getting rid of a team open you up to the possibility of actually using wish for more than just EtW.

[Buckjunt]

I have been testing the proactive sb and I am in love. This is my current build, it has been doing really well. I do not like manamorphose, it makes for some awkward hands and can be a huge tempo blowout when it is countered. As for gitaxian probe and Street Wraith, I find all of the cantrips unnecessary and they make mulliganing difficult. I opted for more redundancy in pyretic ritual and grim monolith, which has been working well. It shines game 1 vs control because it can be cast and saved unlike other rituals and you can use your LEDs to untap it when you are in topdeck mode, which is huge.

Artifacts: 20
4x Chrome Mox
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Grim Monolith
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

Creatures: 12
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Tinder Wall

Instants: 12
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Seething Song

Land: 1
1x Taiga

Sorceries: 15
4x Burning Wish
3x Empty the Warrens
4x Land Grant
4x Rite of Flame

Side Board:
3x Carpet of Flowers
1x Empty the Warrens
4x Guttural Response
2x Pyroblast
2x Noxious Revival
1x Pyroclasm
1x Reverent Silence
1x Shattering Spree

[feline]

Belcher in the finals against Jund, go belcher!

[Final Fortune]

I have been testing the proactive sb and I am in love. This is my current build, it has been doing really well. I do not like manamorphose, it makes for some awkward hands and can be a huge tempo blowout when it is countered. As for gitaxian probe and Street Wraith, I find all of the cantrips unnecessary and they make mulliganing difficult. I opted for more redundancy in pyretic ritual and grim monolith, which has been working well. It shines game 1 vs control because it can be cast and saved unlike other ritualsand you can use your LEDs to untap it when you are in topdeck mode, which is huge.

Artifacts: 20
4x Chrome Mox
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Grim Monolith
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

Creatures: 12
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Tinder Wall

Instants: 12
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Seething Song

Land: 1
1x Taiga

Sorceries: 15
4x Burning Wish
3x Empty the Warrens
4x Land Grant
4x Rite of Flame

Side Board:
4x Carpet of Flowers
1x Empty the Warrens
4x Guttural Response
2x Pyroblast
1x Pyroclasm
1x Reverent Silence
1x Shattering Spree
1x Taiga

I play more or less the same MD, but I go back and forth on Grim Monolith and Chancellor of the Tangle in the MD. If you're playing in the post Jund metagame, you have to SB Leyline of Sanctity in order to have a positive win percentage vs discard strategies. The utility wish targets really aren't worth their weight, if you have to answer your opponent's permanents you've already lost more often than not. A card that I think may have some promise in the SB is Chancellor of the Annex, just for its ability to "counter" Force of Will on the play, Spell Pierce on the draw, Thoughtseize etc. on the draw and Chalice of the Void on the draw. The problem with Red Elemental Blast is that it's often too resource intensive in order to both cast and protect your threat.

[Koby]

I prefer Reforge the Soul against discard strategies. It's higher variance, but doesn't interfere with your mulligans as much. It's Wishable too, so it provides some utility as an Engine.

[GoldenCid]

Belcher in the finals against Jund, go belcher! who did finally take the prize???

[Buckjunt]

Can get your lists? I may test chancellor of the tangle as a 1 of, but it seems like the worst thing to topdeck but it is another win condition and it can't be hit by spell pierce. As for the 2 white spells mentioned, if I ever topdeck them, I can almost never cast them. Reforge may find its way into the sb, though wishing for it seems awkward because against blue or game 1 turn 1 if I got the wish off, I am going for the kill because if they couldn't counter wish, I don't want to give them the chance to stop me just to bump my storm count. I can see the logic in using it against discard as a non-wish side option, but wouldn't regrowth serve the same purpose without the possible setbacks of refueling my opponent's hand? Even noxious revival could serve this purpose, at the trade off of not being a wish target, but being free.

[SBGpinas]

who did finally take the prize???

Jund, on the back of Thoughtsieze Game 1 and Duress Game 3

[Final Fortune]

Can get your lists? I may test chancellor of the tangle as a 1 of, but it seems like the worst thing to topdeck but it is another win condition and it can't be hit by spell pierce. As for the 2 white spells mentioned, if I ever topdeck them, I can almost never cast them. Reforge may find its way into the sb, though wishing for it seems awkward because against blue or game 1 turn 1 if I got the wish off, I am going for the kill because if they couldn't counter wish, I don't want to give them the chance to stop me just to bump my storm count. I can see the logic in using it against discard as a non-wish side option, but wouldn't regrowth serve the same purpose without the possible setbacks of refueling my opponent's hand? Even noxious revival could serve this purpose, at the trade off of not being a wish target, but being free.

Belcher isn't exactly an archetype that cares about what it's going to top deck, if you don't have Leyline of Sanctity and/or Chancellor of the Annex in your SB then you're going to coin flip vs Jund. All that matters is that you're playing the most efficient card for the job at any moment in time, if you brick on your 8th card on the draw so be it - I think a 0 mana counter to Force of Will is worth it.

[Buckjunt]

Can I please get your list? Or at least you 15?
Your reasoning makes sense, I understand why you do it. The rest of my side becomes clunky it seems if I were to open with chancellor and any number of other sided cards. This is why I asked to see your list, you said the differences were in our 15. Have you tested these options or is it theoretical?

[Final Fortune]

Can I please get your list? Or at least you 15?
Your reasoning makes sense, I understand why you do it. The rest of my side becomes clunky it seems if I were to open with chancellor and any number of other sided cards. This is why I asked to see your list, you said the differences were in our 15. Have you tested these options or is it theoretical?

It's the core 52 cards with Pyretic Ritual and Chancellor of the Tangle and the 15 is 1 Empty the Warrens and 14 different disruption/protection slots - a mix of Pyroblast, Guttoral Response, Autumn's Veil, Xantid Swarm, Leyline of Sanctity and Chancellor of the Annex depending on the meta.

It's not theoretical, I've used the white disruption cards in Belcher for awhile to good effect, not preparing for discard in this metagame is just incredibly stupid, especially when preparing for discard is more effective than preparing for counterspells in terms of your disruption's cost efficiency.

[Buckjunt]

This is what I am going to test out:
3 chancellor of the annex
1 empty the warrens
4 guttural response
4 leyline of sanctity
3 pyroblast

[GoblinZ]

I am considering replacing the fourth seething song and the fourth chrome mox with 2 street wraith(or maybe cut a burning wish for the 3th street wraith)but I have not tested it or did any calculation, so what do you think?

[Buckjunt]

I would never cut mox or burning wish, personally, but seething song is ok to Axe.

[GoldenCid]

I was reading the last pages and i see that a main issu is discard. If it's why would you cut the cantrips?
I understand that you want to increase the consistency of your combo but if you get discarded properly you are in a complete topdeck mode. With gitaxian probe you get info about your opo cards at the time you make an effort to bring your win cond to ur hand. The same goes for morphose or street wraith. This apply for counter magic too!

[Final Fortune]

I was reading the last pages and i see that a main issu is discard. If it's why would you cut the cantrips?
I understand that you want to increase the consistency of your combo but if you get discarded properly you are in a complete topdeck mode. With gitaxian probe you get info about your opo cards at the time you make an effort to bring your win cond to ur hand. The same goes for morphose or street wraith. This apply for counter magic too!

The cantrips have always been terrible in terms of consistency, especially since Pyretic Ritual was printed and to a lesser extent Grim Monolith was unbanned. One of the problems with Belcher, or perhaps all Storm combo decks, is that the low cost of entry for the deck encourages arguably some of the worst deck builders and players to play it and then completely fuck up the MD for no good reason. Why would you want any uncertainty in your opening 7, especially for Manamorphose which forces you to gamble with 2 mana in the hopes that you'll cantrip into the last mana source you need to go off?

I can understand Gitaxian Probe if you don't like Grim Monolith or Chancellor of the Tangle, but that's assumming you can actually do anything with the information. Not playing Pyretic Ritual tho' is just an inconceivably bad judgement call, and I think Chancellor of the Tangle combined with Chrome Mox in your opening hand is one of the strongest natural draws this deck has despite being a shitty top deck. I think it may be the kind of card you want to gamble with in the MD game 1 and then SB out immediately if you win in order to avoid having a blank 8th card. Likewise I think Gitaxian Probe is kind of a pre SB card where it's not really great game 1 but gets a lot better game 2 when you SB in blasts.

[GoldenCid]

The cantrips have always been terrible in terms of consistency, especially since Pyretic Ritual was printed and to a lesser extent Grim Monolith was unbanned. One of the problems with Belcher, or perhaps all Storm combo decks, is that the low cost of entry for the deck encourages arguably some of the worst deck builders and players to play it and then completely fuck up the MD for no good reason. Why would you want any uncertainty in your opening 7, especially for Manamorphose which forces you to gamble with 2 mana in the hopes that you'll cantrip into the last mana source you need to go off?

I can understand Gitaxian Probe if you don't like Grim Monolith or Chancellor of the Tangle, but that's assumming you can actually do anything with the information. Not playing Pyretic Ritual tho' is just an inconceivably bad judgement call, and I think Chancellor of the Tangle combined with Chrome Mox in your opening hand is one of the strongest natural draws this deck has despite being a shitty top deck. I think it may be the kind of card you want to gamble with in the MD game 1 and then SB out immediately if you win in order to avoid having a blank 8th card. Likewise I think Gitaxian Probe is kind of a pre SB card where it's not really great game 1 but gets a lot better game 2 when you SB in blasts.

What i simply say is that in a hand where you have: LG + SSG + LED + RoF + Pyretic + GP + BW is better than LG + SSG + LED + RoF + Grim Monolith + BW if BW gets discarded. Then you have an extra card next turn to hit (uncertaily, i know) one of the remaining winning conditions.

[Buckjunt]

We can debate corner cases all day, of sample hands that are worse then others, but this proves nothing. The deck is incredibly redundant, and discard isn't even our main concern. It can be a huge hinderance, and it can lose you the game if you have terrible topdecks, this is why we board answers. The main deck needs to be consistent, and cantrips are anything but. Knowing you can get there or that you have to mull is far more crucial than gambling on a blind draw. The information does nothing for us. You slow roll to avoid the force as they set up board position and draw more answers. You have to make them stop you. You should always play as if they have it, use the minimum ramp required to get there, play your kill and hope for the best. If they have it, you will draw another and hopefully you haven't used your entire hand to get there. It is a glass cannon, but the first shot doesn't always shatter. I have seen multiple games where they use fow to answer and they have to pitch jace, counterbalance or another force to do so. That is amazing news for us. Just keep on trucking.

[Tlbwars]

hey guys i was looking at my collection and i found 4 lion's eye diamond... i was wondering do i really need to buy the burning wishes to be competitive ? (sideboard plan)

[TerribleTim68]

hey guys i was looking at my collection and i found 4 lion's eye diamond... i was wondering do i really need to buy the burning wishes to be competitive ? (sideboard plan)

Well, that depends on who you ask. I've run a Wish-less list and had good success with it. The Wish-less list has done decent at big events like SCG Opens here and there too. But thre are those who swear by the Wish builds, so ultimately it's up to you and your playstyle to decide.

I own wishes and still prefer the Wish-less list, FWIW.

[Buckjunt]

Agreed. I run a wish build and I love it, but it is up to you. I say goldfish the he'll out of the deck and decide for yourself!

After a lot of testing, I have made my sideboard this for Cincinnati this weekend:

4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Guttural Response
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Pyroblast

[ahg113]

I played Belcher at Edison and am a big fan of Leyline of Sanctity. They did not have any Chancellors of Annex, but I intend to pick up a play set pronto.

With all the discard around, Leyline is great, that it's out of Abrupt decay range too means it's not until turn 3 (M. Pulse, O-Ring) that it's most likely going to bite the dust, by which, we should have won/be winning.

Cheers,
it's also funny to play against burn- just because.

[Buckjunt]

I played Belcher at Edison and am a big fan of Leyline of Sanctity. They did not have any Chancellors of Annex, but I intend to pick up a play set pronto.

With all the discard around, Leyline is great, that it's out of Abrupt decay range too means it's not until turn 3 (M. Pulse, O-Ring) that it's most likely going to bite the dust, by which, we should have won/be winning.

Cheers,
it's also funny to play against burn- just because.
Anything but blue!

[Ozymandias]

You guys are too concerned about discard, as opposed to Forces. To elucidate, I have prepared the following back-of-the-envelope calculation:

What are the odds that Thoughtseize will wreck your shit?

First, you need to lose the die roll: 50%
Then, your opponent needs to draw a thoughtseize: 40%
Then, you need to have a hand with exactly one win condition out of eleven in the deck: 40%
Then, you need to fail to draw a win condition when you draw for turn: 81%

.5*.4*.4*.8=.065-> A 6.5% chance of thoughtseize wrecking you.

Now, this is a simplified assessment. Your opponent could plausibly take a mana source, but that seems highly unlikely given the composition of belcher. Compensating for that are
a) The assumption that failing to topdeck a win condition on t1 is GG
b) The assumption that your opponent is going to actually lead with Thoughtseize, instead of Deathrite or whatever--totally dependant on your opponent's awareness of what you're playing.

By contrast, what are the odds of FOW wrecking your shit?
First, your opponent needs to draw a Force: 40%
Then, you need to have a win condition that's not ETW: 73%
.40*.73= a 29% chance
So you are far better off boarding against Force than you are against discard--especially when a timely force will cost you far moer resources than a Thoughtseize.

[Buckjunt]

That's why I have ten sb cards for fow and 8 for thoughtseize. Also there is a 100% chance they know what we are playing game two. You also forgot to calculate the chances they have a blue card to pitch to fow.

[Final Fortune]

You guys are too concerned about discard, as opposed to Forces. To elucidate, I have prepared the following back-of-the-envelope calculation:

What are the odds that Thoughtseize will wreck your shit?

First, you need to lose the die roll: 50%
Then, your opponent needs to draw a thoughtseize: 40%
Then, you need to have a hand with exactly one win condition out of eleven in the deck: 40%
Then, you need to fail to draw a win condition when you draw for turn: 81%

.5*.4*.4*.8=.065-> A 6.5% chance of thoughtseize wrecking you.

Now, this is a simplified assessment. Your opponent could plausibly take a mana source, but that seems highly unlikely given the composition of belcher. Compensating for that are
a) The assumption that failing to topdeck a win condition on t1 is GG
b) The assumption that your opponent is going to actually lead with Thoughtseize, instead of Deathrite or whatever--totally dependant on your opponent's awareness of what you're playing.

By contrast, what are the odds of FOW wrecking your shit?
First, your opponent needs to draw a Force: 40%
Then, you need to have a win condition that's not ETW: 73%
.40*.73= a 29% chance
So you are far better off boarding against Force than you are against discard--especially when a timely force will cost you far moer resources than a Thoughtseize.

No one is sacrificing SB space vs Force of Will in order to SB cards vs discard, it just so happens that Chancellor of the Annex is goog against Force of Will (on the play) and discard (on the draw) and that the SB cards vs discard are significantly more cost efficient than the SB cards vs Force of Will, which you have to pay mana for.

Also, you need to take into consideration that decks that play discard can play more than 4 copies of "Thoughtseize and co."

[Buckjunt]

No one is sacrificing SB space vs Force of Will in order to SB cards vs discard, it just so happens that Chancellor of the Annex is goog against Force of Will (on the play) and discard (on the draw) and that the SB cards vs discard are significantly more cost efficient than the SB cards vs Force of Will, which you have to pay mana for.

Also, you need to take into consideration that decks that play discard can play more than 4 copies of "Thoughtseize and co."

This. Chances that a single duress, inquisition or thoughtseize will stop us are minimal, but still existent. And as I said before, this is games 2 and 3. Most decks that run any of these in the main run additional in the side. This can be a huge issue if they are on the play. Leyline downright negates these while chancellor will hold them off at least for 1 turn so we have a chance to combo. As final said, they are free to use, and if need be, we can even throw chancellor under the mox. They are only sided in on the draw against targeted discard effects because we should be in a winning position by the time they become relevant if we are on the play, if we hadn't already won. Chancellor doubles as F.o.W. protection when we are on the play as well, so it is an added bonus.

[feline]

Ok, I notice the primer for Belcher is, 2007, I have actual experience with this deck and I even ran it for a while, unless there is objection, I would like to take on the "project" that is making a new primer for Belcher, if it helps as an example, I recently had a lot of fun making the High Tide primer that is now being used, and you can use that as a reference to see the types of things I would note in a primer, I would make it very detailed, posts successful decklists, note the wishless belcher decks accordingly, card choices, note playstyle tricks like getting to 3 mana instead of 4 mana, then use a spirit guide to get the 4th mana so you can cast an empty the warrens against known opposing counterspells, where as if you are at 3 mana, then spend 1 to cast a ritual to get to 4, they might counter it keeping you at 2, then causing you to "fizzle" and you wasted more resources, etc etc etc, stuff like that.

It was also my "1st" legacy deck in that, I've had it since it was "2 land belcher" like 10 years ago.

-edit- I am almost done making the new Belcher thread, will be posting it sometime in the next few hours, -playing the deck- -history all the way to 2 land belcher- -successful decklists starting late 2009 with Belchers 1st appearance in a Legacy top 8 at a major event- -Maindeck cards- -Sideboard cards- -Price guide- -Links to Belcher related stuff- -and of course, a link to this thread both at the top & bottom of the main post.

-edit- http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25698-Primer-Deck-Belcher submitted belcher/primer link. ^.^