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The Cisco Kid
05-07-2007, 01:42 PM
So I decided to use the resources at hand both here and at the Source to compile tournament results from this past weekend (post-Hulk Flash), and the weekend before it's discovery to the entire Legacy-playing world. If anyone has any additional information they'd like to share, PM me or post it here. Anyway, it's a valuable tool for metagaming, in any case.

4-28/9
Kaddy’s (Top 8, 55 players): Belcher, Survival, Polar Express, UWB Landstill, Goblins, UGR Thresh, UGW Thresh, 43Land.dec

GPT Blue Bell (Top 8, 25 players): GR Belcher, CRET Belcher, B/W Disruption, BHWC Landstill, Boros Deck Wins, Rec-Sur, Goblins, Iggy Pop

GPT Saint Louis (Top 4, 9 players): Boros Deck Wins, BWHC Landstill, Stompy, Trinket Angels

Dragon’s Lair (Top 8, 32 players): Pox, Death and Taxes, UW Fish, Golden Grahams, White Weenie, Angel Stax, Three-Deuce, UG Madness

GPT Louisville (Top 8, 31 players): Golden Grahams, Golden Grahams, Landstill, B/W Disruption, Thresh, Goblins, Sligh, UG Loam

GPT Roanoke (Top 8, 15 players): RG Beats, Affinity, Iggy Pop, UWR Pyroclasm

GPT New York (Top 8, 23 players): UB Tog, UG Madness, Rec-Sur, Belcher, MWC, TES, GRO, Zoo

GPT Columbus (Top 8, 26 players): Goblins, B/W Disruption, Goblins, Rock, Rifter, Counter Sliver, Thresh, Affinity

5 Goblins (8.9%)
4 Belcher (7.1%)
4 Landstill
4 Thresh
3 Golden Grahams (5.4%)
3 Landstill
3 Survival
3 BW Disruption
2 UG Madness (3.6%)
2 Boros Deck Wins
2 Iggy Pop
2 Affinity
Polar Express (1.8%)
43 Land.dec
Stompy
Trinket Angels
Pox
Death and Taxes
Fish
White Weenie
Angel Stax
Three Deuce
Sligh
UG Loam
RG Beats
UWR Pyroclasm
UB Tog
MWC
TES
Gro
Zoo
Rock
Rifter
Counter Sliver

56/216 players

5-5/6
Meandeck Open (Top 8, 29 players): Hulk Flash, UWB Fish, 6 Unknown

Sandusky FoW (Top 3, 9 players): Hulk Flash, Hulk Flash, Iggy Pop

Austin Mox (Top 8, 16 players): Hulk Flash, Hulk Flash, Hulk Flash, UB Tog, Belcher, Belcher, Unknown, Survival

GPT Rochester (Top 8, 25 people): Aluren, Goblins, Belcher, 43Land.dec, Thresh, Hulk Flash, Sea Stompy, Belcher

GPT Richmond (Top 8, 25 playes): Loam, Belcher, Hulk Flash, Hulk Flash, Rock-ish, Red Death, Solidarity, UGw Thresh

GPT Pittsburgh (Top 8, 36 players): Hulk Flash, Counter Slivers, Goblins, Thresh, Landstill, Hulk Flash, Fish, Unknown

11 Hulk Flash (31.4%)
5 Belcher (14.3%)
3 Thresh (8.6%)
2 Fish (5.7%)
2 Goblins
Iggy Pop (2.9%)
UB Tog
Aluren
43 Land.dec
Loam
Red Death
Rock
Landstill
Solidarity
Sea Stompy
Counter Slivers
Survival
8 Unknown

35 (Known)/140 players

Happy Gilmore
05-07-2007, 03:29 PM
Wow, if those numbers are correct I think its safe to say that our greatest fear has been realized.

I think this thread may need to be moved to the LFM since it is basically a continuation of the discussion regarding GP Columbus. While at the same time addressing the current impact of Hulk Flash using statistical evidence.

Thanks for putting it together TCK. :smile:

Guy I Don't Know
05-07-2007, 03:58 PM
43land.dec is called HOT COCOA

P.S. it doesnt even have 43 lands

PMs, please---frogboy

UrDraco
05-07-2007, 04:22 PM
If you want it.

GPT - Durham NC 4/14/07 13 players

top 8

Angelstompy (2nd)
Iggypop (3rd)
UGr Thresh
Kobolds
B/W Disruption (4th)
UGw Thresh
RGbeats
Unknown (1st)

JACO
05-07-2007, 05:03 PM
Wow, if those numbers are correct I think its safe to say that our greatest fear has been realized.

I think this thread may need to be moved to the LFM since it is basically a continuation of the discussion regarding GP Columbus. While at the same time addressing the current impact of Hulk Flash using statistical evidence.

Thanks for putting it together TCK. :smile:
This is a nice compilation of results, and a good Flores or BDM style week in review, and you are to be commended, TCH! Those are the only articles on Wizards' site I ever read, because the content is the only thing of value to me of all of their editorials.

However, to quote 9 player tournaments, and say our greatest fears are being realized, is a little unsubstantiated. Only one of the tournaments from this past weekend had more than 4-5 rounds, and any deck can make Top 8 in tournaments that small, especially if people are playing decks like 'Rock,' 43Land.dec, etc., which stand no chance against combo of any nature, let alone Belcher or HulkFlash. Once more people start putting Blue back in their decks I think things will simmer down a little bit. But it's great to see so much Legacy activity in general, and have results compiled in an easy to read format. You might also want to bold the winner of each tournament, and then (like BDM and Flores) you can track how many and the percentage of each archetype WON tournaments, and what percentage MADE TOP 8. Now that would be nice.

The Cisco Kid
05-07-2007, 05:34 PM
However, to quote 9 player tournaments, and say our greatest fears are being realized, is a little unsubstantiated.

I agree here completely. Frankly, I didn't want to include such small tournaments, but I figured that given the nature of this study--that is, a two week slice of the meta--that I should use every bit of material I had available.

Also, I would like to state for the record that I didn't really want to make an argument one way or the other about the change. I just thought it relevant to take notice of just how much things changed.

Finally, I'll probably won't go back and bold the winning decks, because I don't think that's necessarily giving a more accurate representation of the meta. To take into consideration only winning decks has so much to do with luck on draws and pairings that I think it would be severely limiting. Also, if I had the relevant information, I'd probably want to do a more thorough analysis of all decks, average placement, etc... because that is most important for players IMO--knowing what decks to expect at the next tourney.

Thanks for the input, though. If any more numbers come up, I'll be sure to edit my post.

allaanon
05-07-2007, 10:04 PM
If these results stay about the same post-FS I think it's actually promising. While it got quite a few wins don't forget this was the first weekend and they are not yet hitting all of the hate they will be a month from now. How dominant was goblins before decks/sideboards and the entire format adapted? The format will change and it will have a new deck that defines it... but players will adapt.

Machinus
05-07-2007, 10:21 PM
If you want it.

GPT - Durham NC 4/14/07 13 players

top 8

Angelstompy (2nd)
Iggypop (3rd)
UGr Thresh
Kobolds
B/W Disruption (4th)
UGw Thresh
RGbeats
Unknown (1st)

What was the unknown?

Zilla
05-08-2007, 05:53 AM
How dominant was goblins before decks/sideboards and the entire format adapted? The format will change and it will have a new deck that defines it... but players will adapt.
You are roughly the 4000th person to have made this incredibly flawed analogy. I don't have it in me to refute it again, but if you care to educate yourself you might do some reading on the subject.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
05-08-2007, 06:35 AM
If these results stay about the same post-FS I think it's actually promising. While it got quite a few wins don't forget this was the first weekend and they are not yet hitting all of the hate they will be a month from now. How dominant was goblins before decks/sideboards and the entire format adapted? The format will change and it will have a new deck that defines it... but players will adapt.

I don't know if you noticed, but this hasn't been kept hush-hush. There was plenty of preparation for Hulk-Flash. You'll notice, for instance, that of the 35 decks we know that Top 8'd this weekend, only four didn't either,

1) Have turn 1 wins.

2) Play heavy back disruption, or

3) Play heavy blue disruption.

Two thirds of the decks were running Force of Will.

The format was prepared this weekend, and most of the lists were sub-optimal and raw. We've only seen the tip of the iceberg here. Most people still don't understand what Hulk-Flash is capable of.

Wallace
05-08-2007, 07:43 AM
1) Have turn 1 wins.

2) Play heavy back disruption, or

3) Play heavy blue disruption.

Two thirds of the decks were running Force of Will.

The format was prepared this weekend, and most of the lists were sub-optimal and raw. We've only seen the tip of the iceberg here. Most people still don't understand what Hulk-Flash is capable of.

Right on man. Hulk Flash is going to get so much better post Future Sight. The addition of the Pacts makes the deck near unbeatable. I played Flash at GPT Rochester and went 2-3. The games I lost I either drew really bad or my oppenent sided in a ton of hate.

Happy Gilmore
05-08-2007, 12:04 PM
To be honest I was not looking at the total # of players when I posted. Regardless, the compiled information found here is extremely useful.

URABAHN
05-08-2007, 04:08 PM
I've noticed a whole lot of new faces on The Source since Hulk Flash was errata'd. It is just coincidence? Or is Hulk Flash bringing these people here?

Rastadon
05-08-2007, 04:25 PM
I've noticed a whole lot of new faces on The Source since Hulk Flash was errata'd. It is just coincidence? Or is Hulk Flash bringing these people here?

People are also more active. I'm seeing old faces that I thought slipped off the map.

Horror Business
05-08-2007, 06:00 PM
To add to your 4/28-29 where you have no Flash there was a tournament in Ft. Worth, TX with more people than the Austin Mox tourney and the one guy playing Flash got in the top 8. I don't know how he finished though since I left early, but 43 Lands won.

allaanon
05-08-2007, 07:07 PM
Just because the combo has been all over most magic sites does not mean the kid your playing in the tournament has read it, has the cards or even has the cards to properly sideboard against it. Yet...


You are roughly the 4000th person to have made this incredibly flawed analogy. I don't have it in me to refute it again, but if you care to educate yourself you might do some reading on the subject.

Weird, I haven't seen it once. This is the way the game goes. New cards come out, new decks are developed, old cards are errated or unbanned/unrestricted and occasionally a deck really takes over a format. Welcome to magic. It's been that way forever.

If people will stop whining and just learn to adapt and play better the format will take care of itself. The deck will get hated out or a better deck will take its place. I'm sorry your Tablet of Epityr deck isn't king right now.

ffs use the quote tags. I'm already blind and don't need tiny font reminding me---frogboy

Zilla
05-08-2007, 07:25 PM
Weird, I haven't seen it once. This is the way the game goes. New cards come out, new decks are developed, old cards are errated or unbanned/unrestricted and occasionally a deck really takes over a format. Welcome to magic. It's been that way forever.
This argument is incredibly inane, and completely fails to face the reality of the situation. By your logic, there's no such thing as a card or combination of cards which is too powerful for any format. If a card forces every deck in the format to run one and only one color to be viable, is it too much? Or should they just suck it up and get used to a format where four of the colors don't exist? What about the same question, but with two colors?

Your inability to grasp the concept of relative power levels is laughable. If the DCI arbitrarily decided to unban Yawgmoth's Will in Legacy, should people just get used to it? This analogy is closer than you think, except that unbanned Yawgmoth's Will is arguably fairer and more balanced than Flash. With Yawgmoth's Will, you actually have to get cards to the graveyard to win. The same kind of hate which hurts Flash also hurts Yawgmoth's Will (Leyline of the Void, Extirpate, Force of Will, Daze, Meddling Mage, etc.) except that Yawgmoth's Will requires more setup, costs one more mana, and is sorcery speed.

So I ask you this: according to your logic, why should the DCI not unban Yawgmoth's Will in Legacy? After all, the format will adjust. Sure, it will be a format where only blue and black decks are viable and creatures are essentially irrelevant, but hey, that's what Flash already does anyway, right?

bigbear102
05-08-2007, 09:17 PM
Read Nightmare's report if you think the format wasn't ready for it. He played Hulk at Rochester against Goblins playing MAINDECK Leyline. Belcher also had it in the board, which is not something they normally have.

Brushwagg
05-08-2007, 09:33 PM
I have to agree with Zilla on this. If Flash stays legal in Legacy it going to come down to either you play Flash/Hulk or play a deck that you hope to beat it with. After Future Sight becomes legal this deck just gets dumb.

Also if this stays leagl you can pretty much say kiss Aggro, and heavy creature Aggro-control (Survival) good-bye. Since they do not have the tools to combat the speed and the easy that this deck can win with.

@Leyline:Mr. Nightmare also said that Leyline wasn't that much trouble. If an aggro deck does run it in the board, the Flash player just bounces and then wins. He did say that Stifle was the real pain, but we are also talking pre-Future Sight, where this deck gains a perfect complement to FOW in Pact of Negation and a better tutor for Hulk/ESG in Summoners Pact.

Tacosnape
05-08-2007, 09:33 PM
Your inability to grasp the concept of relative power levels is laughable. If the DCI arbitrarily decided to unban Yawgmoth's Will in Legacy, should people just get used to it? This analogy is closer than you think, except that unbanned Yawgmoth's Will is arguably fairer and more balanced than Flash.

I'll go even further. There's no "arguably fairer" about it.

Flash is far more distorting than Yawgmoth's Will. Period. It's debatably stronger than Tinker or Oath of Druids or Hermit Druid or most of the B/R list, actually. It's even debatably stronger than Demonic Tutor or Time Walk or Channel, as it completely wins the game for the same cost at instant speed. There really aren't but like, fifteen cards on the banned and restricted list that would wreak more havoc if legalized. This would include the Lotus, Moxen, top tier mana accelerants, Ancestral Recall, Strip Mine, and possibly a few others.

In fact, I think the legalization of Chaos Orb might cause less impact than Flash. After all, it's the same amount of mana, doesn't win you the game, isn't an instant, doesn't pitch to Force of Will, and can sometimes miss entirely. In fact, I hereby vote we unban Chaos Orb in order to let Stax have a shot in the Flash-filled format.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
05-08-2007, 10:05 PM
I'll quote myself from the Wizards board, why not.


I find it amusing how so many people kicked up their feet and screamed that nothing could come off the Legacy banned list, because the cards were all too powerful, and then some of those same people are saying to give Flash a chance. Let's compare the cards on the Legacy banned list that weren't banned for non-power related reasons (physical dexterity and ante cards):

* Balance- Yeah, it's Wrath + Armageddon. However, why spend two mana in a weaker color trying to get a slight mana advantage and stabilize the board, when you can spend two mana in the best color in the game, at Instant speed, and win the game right there? Clearly less powerful than Flash.
* Bazaar of Baghdad- Not even close. A draw engine that needs the entire deck built around it and inherently slows your clock by taking a land drop and not producing mana.
* Black Vise- Are you kidding? This gives them multiple turns. Flash kills them immediately and has less outs like, oh, I don't know, mulliganing.
* Channel- Channel-Fireball costs more mana than Flash-Hulk, and in worse colors with less protection and dig. I suppose you could power out a Sundering Titan or Darksteel Colossus, and scoop to Swords to Plowshares, but that's a turn 3-4 win at best.
* Demonic Tutor- 1B, try to find a win, versus 1U, win the game.
* Dream Halls- Ha! Yeah, good luck resolving that.
* Earthcraft- 1U, win the game right now, vs. 2GGG, win the game next turn unless they have Sharpshooter. Hrm....
* Entomb- Oh no, they could have a first turn Akroma. Why, that's a turn 4 kill, that is.
* Fastbond- What does an extra land drop or two matter when winning costs 1U, again?
* Frantic Search- Arguably this would break Solidarity in half, but the problem is that Solidarity is still pretty much strictly worse than Flash. Maybe if they started running Stifle and Spell Snare. This one might be almost as good as Flash.
* Goblin Recruiter- Yeah, FCG's turn 3 combo out win that costs 3GR over two turns doesn't scare me as much as Flash. Not to mention that Flash never died to Wing Shards.
* Grim Monolith- Not even close.
* Gush- Two islands to your hand? You had time to drop two Islands?
* Hermit Druid- 1U, win the game vs. 1G, pass the turn, hope my 1/1 doesn't die before he can untap, mill my library, hope the opponent doesn't have StP. Or, y'know, Fog.
* Illusionary Mask- Three mana for a 12/12 that dies to StP or Disenchant, or two mana to win right now. Difficult choice.
* Imperial Seal- I guess this makes Flash slightly more broken.
* Land Tax- Ha!
* Library of Alexandria- You'd better not still have seven cards in hand if you're planning on winning.
* Mana Drain- If Counterspell weren't obsoletely slow, this might be a good card.
* Mana Vault- With any luck, you could first turn Chalice on 2.
* Memory Jar- It'd be broken in half... if you could actually play it fast enough for your opponent playing Flash to care. Or through your opponent playing anti-Flash who just Duresses or Forces it.
* Metalworker- 3 Mana 1/2 that might do something next turn < 2 Mana Instant that wins right now.
* Mind Over Matter- Ha!
* Mind Twist- Maybe you can actually stop Flash with this... and a handful of Moxen...
* Mind's Desire- What is this "six mana" of which you speak?
* Mishra's Workshop- Maybe you can resolve a Chalice for 2 early enough to matter with this.
* Mox Emerald- What good mana acceleration when you can win for the cost of a Wild Mongrel?
* Mox Jet- What good mana acceleration when you can win for the cost of a Hymn to Tourach?
* Mox Pearl- What good mana acceleration when you can win for the cost of a Disenchant?
* Mox Ruby- What good mana acceleration when you can win for the cost of a Goblin Piledriver?
* Mox Sapphire- What good mana acceleration when you can win for the cost of an Impulse?
* Necropotence- Why do you need to pass the turn? I guess it's a good fallback against all the discard decks trying to kill Flash.
* Oath of Druids- Yeah, a turn 3 6/6 Hastey guy is really scary when it's backed up by Force of Will and Duress. Not as scary as a turn 2 win backed up by Force of Will, Daze and Pact of Negation, but I guess you can't have everything.
* Replenish- HA!
* Skullclamp- Why are you playing creatures? Why are you paying mana to do things with them?
* Sol Ring- I suppose you can power out an early Sphere of Resistance with this. That might be pretty good. If they don't have ESG....
* Strip Mine- Winning the game costs two mana in this format, and disruption had better be one mana or free. Is this going to slow them down? Why isn't this an Underground Sea so you can Duress with Daze backup?
* Time Spiral- If you shaved this price down by a third, you could just go ahead and win. Instead of putting the win in their hand.
* Time Walk- It's like a free cantrip that empties the storm count. You know what combo deck could really, really use this, and loves it's 1U spells?
* Timetwister- No, I'm trying to be serious.
* Tinker- I suppose you could get a Nullstone Gargoyle with this. That might be pretty good. If they don't draw a Lotus Petal, I mean.
* Vampiric Tutor- I suppose this would make Flash-Hulk more insane, if such was possible.
* Wheel of Fortune- If you cut off one mana and switched that ugly red mana symbol for a nice Blue one... and then maybe change that ugly Sorcery line to Instant... and that clunky card drawing thing with just winning...
* Windfall- Yeah, good thinking, they might need help drawing into the combo.
* Worldgorger Dragon- I guess 1B sorcery-speed kills that are highly vulnerable to removal from every color, instead of simply blue-black, and leave you with no permanents when you fizzle the combo are too powerful?
* Yawgmoth's Bargain- Who has six mana?

For reference, here's the entire list of banned cards that I can think of plausible arguments for, as to why they're more powerful/format warping than Flash-Hulk:

* Ancestral Recall
* Black Lotus
* Demonic Consultation
* Mana Crypt
* Tolarian Academy
* Yawgmoth's Will

Obviously, this is an overly generous list. Black Lotus, for instance, probably isn't that powerful in relation, for the same reason I listed for the Moxen. Consultation is only an enabler, and doesn't have great synergy with what would clearly be the best deck in a format where Flash and Hulk remain legal.

Slay
05-08-2007, 11:25 PM
I'll quote myself from the Wizards board, why not.

IBA's so cool, he doesn't even need to draw Protean Hulk to win with Flash. He just taps 2 mana and wins the game.
-Slay

allaanon
05-08-2007, 11:34 PM
I'm a firm believer any of those cards could be unbanned, yes. So what if Gush is around... a few decks get stronger and everyone adapts. Right now lackey or ringleader could be banned and we would go on. With them we have a powerful deck that makes every deck account for it. However, they have made the decision to have lackey/ringleader and not gush... that is the format we are playing.

Right now they have chosen to let us play with Flash. Great! That's the format, let's play. As decks adapt to playing against it other decks will rise in power. When the decks that beat Hulk/Flash become more popular than Hulk/Flash itself then another deck will rise up that beats that deck and has a decent match vs. Hulk/Flash. Not a big deal... it's the way it has always been.

Ban flash, don't ban flash. Un-ban any of those cards or don't. Your choosing to play this game and in this format so start playing.

thelfj
05-08-2007, 11:36 PM
I'll go even further. There's no "arguably fairer" about it.

Flash is far more distorting than Yawgmoth's Will. Period.


as a avid t1 player, this statement is ridiculous. lets see.l..meandeck tendrils with 4 lotus petals and 4 Leds...seems kinda ridiculous. how about old school long.dec with led + burningwish for yawg's will.. i think the fact that 4 leds are legal more then makes up for some of the missing broken cards if yawg's win was legal. there is a reason that some people (including Menendian) want it banned from t1.

in summary, flash is good. but it will never be more broken then yawg's win

allaanon
05-08-2007, 11:38 PM
Ah, never mind. Let's just ban the thing and get back to our regularly scheduled program. Why can't they see this is the end of the world!

TheInfamousBearAssassin
05-09-2007, 05:18 PM
as a avid t1 player, this statement is ridiculous. lets see.l..meandeck tendrils with 4 lotus petals and 4 Leds...seems kinda ridiculous. how about old school long.dec with led + burningwish for yawg's will.. i think the fact that 4 leds are legal more then makes up for some of the missing broken cards if yawg's win was legal. there is a reason that some people (including Menendian) want it banned from t1.

in summary, flash is good. but it will never be more broken then yawg's win


In Legacy, Yawgmoth's Will is Ill-Gotten Gains with one mana shaved off. Iggy Pop gets a less amazing name, and that's about the only real difference.

Guy I Don't Know
05-09-2007, 09:13 PM
I agree that hulk flash is rlly good.
But to be honest... Everyone is packing hate for it now... I mean maindeck leyline of the void and stifle... i think it will be a big percentage of the gp and i think it is the best combo deck if not hated against... but i think belcher is going to do better at the gp for two reason: if belcher goes first and combos off the opponent has to have force of will ... Hulk flash i don't think combos out as quickly as belcher and that exposes it to one mana and two mana hate cards not to mention that they can have leyline of the void.

Brushwagg
05-09-2007, 09:40 PM
Ok I want to address somethings. A few people are talking about adjusting to Flash. What you really mean to say is it's warping the format, that every deck has to play hate for it or lose to it. Flash Hulk is alot worse then Goblins will ever be.


Hulk flash i don't think combos out as quickly as belcher and that exposes it to one mana and two mana hate cards not to mention that they can have leyline of the void.

Have you tested Flash/Hulk at all? Right now at least it's some what managable, but after Future Sight Flash/Hulk becomes very retarded. So much so that aggro WILL die in Legacy.

If Flash stays legal it's going to come down to 3-4 archtypes.

1.Flash/Hulk: The only deck to beat.

2.Some control deck. U/B with a ton of disruption and alomst no Board control, pretty much geared to beat Flash.

3.Some aggro deck (probably Goblins) that's beats the control deck, but loses to Flash/Hulk.

4.Maybe NQG or regular GRO with Dyrads.

Guy I Don't Know
05-09-2007, 10:20 PM
Im talking prior to fs... I agree that afterwards it should be banned... they are basically pushing the deck onto us and i don't like it. I was referring more to the gp that is coming up about how it isn't as good as ppl think it is... At least in my opinion... and yes i have tested... not like 100+ but maybe 30+ and it is good, but i've been losing to belcher more because discard isn't as good going second.

allaanon
05-10-2007, 07:07 PM
Ok I want to address somethings. A few people are talking about adjusting to Flash. What you really mean to say is it's warping the format, that every deck has to play hate for it or lose to it. Flash Hulk is alot worse then Goblins will ever be.

The format is always warped one way or another to fight the top tier decks. We've had a shift to fighting fast agro decks using agro-control with some pure control and some combo all playable.

Now our top deck will be combo and decks will have to readjust. Agro-control will still work... probably more so than ever, it will just have to adapt a few cards to combo instead of adapting them to agro like they did before. Things change, that is good.

Bad decks won't beat it. Shucks.

Volt
05-10-2007, 07:25 PM
The format is always warped one way or another to fight the top tier decks. We've had a shift to fighting fast agro decks using agro-control with some pure control and some combo all playable.

Now our top deck will be combo and decks will have to readjust. Agro-control will still work... probably more so than ever, it will just have to adapt a few cards to combo instead of adapting them to agro like they did before. Things change, that is good.

Bad decks won't beat it. Shucks.

Wow, you're so cool. Nothing phases you. Completely busted combo deck that makes only 2 colors viable in the entire format? No biggie. You'll just "adapt." You're my hero.

Read this (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=130823&postcount=25).

Shriekmaw
05-10-2007, 07:30 PM
The format is always warped one way or another to fight the top tier decks. We've had a shift to fighting fast agro decks using agro-control with some pure control and some combo all playable.

Now our top deck will be combo and decks will have to readjust. Agro-control will still work... probably more so than ever, it will just have to adapt a few cards to combo instead of adapting them to agro like they did before. Things change, that is good.

Bad decks won't beat it. Shucks.


When you see one card in particular in at least every sideboard if not main deck in Leyline of the Void, I think that tells you something might be wrong in the format. It was like in type 2 when every deck ran skullclamp. That might be the warning light that something is wrong, and I believe the same thing can be said about Flash.

I love this game, thats why I travel around and play in all the different magic formats. I think it sucks when you attend a GP and you HAVE to play Hulk Flash or something that can beat it. Is that magic? I don't think so, and I know it is definitely not any fun.

Phantom
05-10-2007, 07:33 PM
Bad decks won't beat it. Shucks.

Bad decks like Goblins, previously the best deck in the format. Seems logical.

allaanon
05-10-2007, 08:04 PM
Goblins can beat flash. Old goblins not adapting cannot but why play in a format where you can just solitaire every game and not have to worry about what the field is playing. Adapt...

I have no clue where this 'only 2 colors are viable' thing is coming from. Take a look around, a lot of decks are adapting to beat hulk-flash in every color. But I'm sure if you say that another million times others will start to believe you. Maybe it's the only thing you can fight it with, who knows.

Your little link is nice, but who cares? The format has shifted. It will be here for less than a month and we'll go back to the format you like. They will ban this thing so why get upset about it? THIS IS STILL A GAME, AND YOU STILL CHOOSE TO PLAY IT.

Volt
05-10-2007, 08:23 PM
Goblins can beat flash.

Um, no they can't. You think Leylines, Chalices, and red blasts are anywhere near enough? They aren't. Not. even. close.


I have no clue where this 'only 2 colors are viable' thing is coming from. Take a look around, a lot of decks are adapting to beat hulk-flash in every color.

Um, it's coming from everyone who has tested extensively with and against the deck. It's coming from me, and from a lot of other people who I regard a LOT more highly than I do you. You say decks are "adapting to beat hulk-flash in every color." That's a riot.

allaanon
05-10-2007, 08:36 PM
I really don't care if you don't value my opinion or not. Luckily, neither of our opinions really matter in what they decide. In the end, this is the format we are both playing until they choose other wise. Might as well have some fun with it.

BossOfTheGame
05-11-2007, 11:38 PM
I'm a firm believer any of those cards could be unbanned, yes. So what if Gush is around... a few decks get stronger and everyone adapts. Right now lackey or ringleader could be banned and we would go on. With them we have a powerful deck that makes every deck account for it. However, they have made the decision to have lackey/ringleader and not gush... that is the format we are playing.

Right now they have chosen to let us play with Flash. Great! That's the format, let's play. As decks adapt to playing against it other decks will rise in power. When the decks that beat Hulk/Flash become more popular than Hulk/Flash itself then another deck will rise up that beats that deck and has a decent match vs. Hulk/Flash. Not a big deal... it's the way it has always been.

Ban flash, don't ban flash. Un-ban any of those cards or don't. Your choosing to play this game and in this format so start playing.

The format cannot adapt to flash and be a fun format to play in. It comes down to a game of do you play flash or do you play hate. I didn't like it when it was only three decks that dominated the meta, but one deck is just bad for magic. Banning and Restricting cards is healthy for a format because if people keep playing optimized decks nothing interesting happens and magic becomes rock paper scissors. When you change something many new possibilities pop up and answers that wearn't there before are now.

THE POINT IS: It is a big deal if they don't ban flash.

revenge_inc
05-13-2007, 11:43 PM
More results to update the first post with.
Legacy tournament in Toronto on Saturday May 12th:
29 people showed up. 3 or 4 played Hulk Flash and hate for it was everywhere. The top 4 prize split--two of them were Hulk Flash.

Top 4 was:

Slivers
UGR Thrash?
x2 Hulk Flash

5th-8th:
'Tog
Affinity
Belcher
EBA(cool list, so I will post it):

4 Dark Confidant
2 Exalted Angel
4 Meddling Mage
3 Phyrexian Negator
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chrome Mox
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

http://www.mtgontario.com/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5857&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0

EDIT: GPT results. 10 people showed up. One person played Flash--they did not Top 4. Slivers won.
http://www.mtgontario.com/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5882#85442

Peter_Rotten
05-14-2007, 06:55 PM
In the end, this is the format we are both playing until they choose other wise. Might as well have some fun with it.

I think that this is a rather healthy attitude. I can't quite be as optimistic, but it is obvious that bitching about Hulk won't do a darn thing for the GP.

andrew77
05-14-2007, 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by Me
I find it amusing how so many people kicked up their feet and screamed that nothing could come off the Legacy banned list, because the cards were all too powerful, and then some of those same people are saying to give Flash a chance. Let's compare the cards on the Legacy banned list that weren't banned for non-power related reasons (physical dexterity and ante cards):

* Balance- Yeah, it's Wrath + Armageddon. However, why spend two mana in a weaker color trying to get a slight mana advantage and stabilize the board, when you can spend two mana in the best color in the game, at Instant speed, and win the game right there? Clearly less powerful than Flash.
* Bazaar of Baghdad- Not even close. A draw engine that needs the entire deck built around it and inherently slows your clock by taking a land drop and not producing mana.
* Black Vise- Are you kidding? This gives them multiple turns. Flash kills them immediately and has less outs like, oh, I don't know, mulliganing.
* Channel- Channel-Fireball costs more mana than Flash-Hulk, and in worse colors with less protection and dig. I suppose you could power out a Sundering Titan or Darksteel Colossus, and scoop to Swords to Plowshares, but that's a turn 3-4 win at best.
* Demonic Tutor- 1B, try to find a win, versus 1U, win the game.
* Dream Halls- Ha! Yeah, good luck resolving that.
* Earthcraft- 1U, win the game right now, vs. 2GGG, win the game next turn unless they have Sharpshooter. Hrm....
* Entomb- Oh no, they could have a first turn Akroma. Why, that's a turn 4 kill, that is.
* Fastbond- What does an extra land drop or two matter when winning costs 1U, again?
* Frantic Search- Arguably this would break Solidarity in half, but the problem is that Solidarity is still pretty much strictly worse than Flash. Maybe if they started running Stifle and Spell Snare. This one might be almost as good as Flash.
* Goblin Recruiter- Yeah, FCG's turn 3 combo out win that costs 3GR over two turns doesn't scare me as much as Flash. Not to mention that Flash never died to Wing Shards.
* Grim Monolith- Not even close.
* Gush- Two islands to your hand? You had time to drop two Islands?
* Hermit Druid- 1U, win the game vs. 1G, pass the turn, hope my 1/1 doesn't die before he can untap, mill my library, hope the opponent doesn't have StP. Or, y'know, Fog.
* Illusionary Mask- Three mana for a 12/12 that dies to StP or Disenchant, or two mana to win right now. Difficult choice.
* Imperial Seal- I guess this makes Flash slightly more broken.
* Land Tax- Ha!
* Library of Alexandria- You'd better not still have seven cards in hand if you're planning on winning.
* Mana Drain- If Counterspell weren't obsoletely slow, this might be a good card.
* Mana Vault- With any luck, you could first turn Chalice on 2.
* Memory Jar- It'd be broken in half... if you could actually play it fast enough for your opponent playing Flash to care. Or through your opponent playing anti-Flash who just Duresses or Forces it.
* Metalworker- 3 Mana 1/2 that might do something next turn < 2 Mana Instant that wins right now.
* Mind Over Matter- Ha!
* Mind Twist- Maybe you can actually stop Flash with this... and a handful of Moxen...
* Mind's Desire- What is this "six mana" of which you speak?
* Mishra's Workshop- Maybe you can resolve a Chalice for 2 early enough to matter with this.
* Mox Emerald- What good mana acceleration when you can win for the cost of a Wild Mongrel?
* Mox Jet- What good mana acceleration when you can win for the cost of a Hymn to Tourach?
* Mox Pearl- What good mana acceleration when you can win for the cost of a Disenchant?
* Mox Ruby- What good mana acceleration when you can win for the cost of a Goblin Piledriver?
* Mox Sapphire- What good mana acceleration when you can win for the cost of an Impulse?
* Necropotence- Why do you need to pass the turn? I guess it's a good fallback against all the discard decks trying to kill Flash.
* Oath of Druids- Yeah, a turn 3 6/6 Hastey guy is really scary when it's backed up by Force of Will and Duress. Not as scary as a turn 2 win backed up by Force of Will, Daze and Pact of Negation, but I guess you can't have everything.
* Replenish- HA!
* Skullclamp- Why are you playing creatures? Why are you paying mana to do things with them?
* Sol Ring- I suppose you can power out an early Sphere of Resistance with this. That might be pretty good. If they don't have ESG....
* Strip Mine- Winning the game costs two mana in this format, and disruption had better be one mana or free. Is this going to slow them down? Why isn't this an Underground Sea so you can Duress with Daze backup?
* Time Spiral- If you shaved this price down by a third, you could just go ahead and win. Instead of putting the win in their hand.
* Time Walk- It's like a free cantrip that empties the storm count. You know what combo deck could really, really use this, and loves it's 1U spells?
* Timetwister- No, I'm trying to be serious.
* Tinker- I suppose you could get a Nullstone Gargoyle with this. That might be pretty good. If they don't draw a Lotus Petal, I mean.
* Vampiric Tutor- I suppose this would make Flash-Hulk more insane, if such was possible.
* Wheel of Fortune- If you cut off one mana and switched that ugly red mana symbol for a nice Blue one... and then maybe change that ugly Sorcery line to Instant... and that clunky card drawing thing with just winning...
* Windfall- Yeah, good thinking, they might need help drawing into the combo.
* Worldgorger Dragon- I guess 1B sorcery-speed kills that are highly vulnerable to removal from every color, instead of simply blue-black, and leave you with no permanents when you fizzle the combo are too powerful?
* Yawgmoth's Bargain- Who has six mana?

For reference, here's the entire list of banned cards that I can think of plausible arguments for, as to why they're more powerful/format warping than Flash-Hulk:

* Ancestral Recall
* Black Lotus
* Demonic Consultation
* Mana Crypt
* Tolarian Academy
* Yawgmoth's Will

Obviously, this is an overly generous list. Black Lotus, for instance, probably isn't that powerful in relation, for the same reason I listed for the Moxen. Consultation is only an enabler, and doesn't have great synergy with what would clearly be the best deck in a format where Flash and Hulk remain legal..

There are some cards that you underestimate. Sure a mox only generates you 1 mana and one storm as oppsed to flash winning the game, but unbanning moxen would basically create a near 100 percent turn one goldfish for storm based combo which would be much more broken than flash. Overall your list seems ok since most cards are far less powerful then flash, but i definately believed the following cards are more powerful than you give them credit for and therefore more powerful than flash.

all 5 moxen- If you unbanned these the format would be all combo and control. They would also give storm based combo a near 100 percent turn one goldfish.

minds desire- If you unbanned minds desire right now I definately think storm absed combo would be more broken than flash is.

mishra's workshop- This is probably as good as flash. It is much more powerful though overall. If flash allowed to run rampant though, this should definatley be unleashed so that stax decks can become competitive

sol ring- not really that amazing when compared to a mox, but it is still broken. Seriously this card would be great for control. The mana accel it provides would allow them to get a slaver off early enough to count

mana drain- Definately nuts if it resolves, since it allows blue to get extra mana which they can use to win the game or resolve a slaver

channel- on the same power level as flash. Sure it isnt blue but it doesnt require you to have a protean hulk to win or do something nuts

yawgmoths bargain- Its the reason flash was errata'd, plus it can be resolved on turn one very easily.

tinker- Its blue and its broken. Sac a 0cc artifact and grab whatever artifact you need. Platinum angel kindof owns flash if you have a handful of counters. So does slaver

demonic tutor- 2 mana to get any card in your deck. It makes flash more broken. It just is broken.

skullclamp- Too damn good.

revenge_inc
05-14-2007, 11:44 PM
This thread should be less about bitching and more about proving the format-warpingness-icity of Hulk Flash. By tracking the effects of this pesky :u: :1: mana instant, we can do this.

If Cisco doesn't update the first post, I do not object to a Mod doing so.

Zilla
05-15-2007, 07:24 PM
skullclamp- Too damn good.
It was legal in type 1.5 for years. It did nothing broken. Comparatively speaking, it's not overpowered. It's very good, but not broken when compared with the rest of the card pool. For the most part I agree with your other assessments.

xsockmonkeyx
05-15-2007, 07:47 PM
More results to update the first post with.
Legacy tournament in Toronto on Saturday May 12th:
29 people showed up. 3 or 4 played Hulk Flash and hate for it was everywhere. The top 4 prize split--two of them were Hulk Flash.

Top 4 was:

Slivers
UGR Thrash?
x2 Hulk Flash

5th-8th:
'Tog
Affinity
Belcher
EBA:

[/SIZE]

http://www.mtgontario.com/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5857&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0

EDIT: GPT results. 10 people showed up. One person played Flash--they did not Top 4. Slivers won.
http://www.mtgontario.com/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5882#85442

Yay Slivers!! See guys? You can play Aether Vial in slivers and win. The card is an absolute counterspell magnet.

georgjorge
05-16-2007, 03:52 AM
I don't know if you're counting results from over at Magic-League as valid...if you do, the results from the last two Legacy Trials are:

May 06 - Legacy WITH FS, 49 players, single Elimination. Flash hate was everywhere. Relevant decktypes:

14 Flash (fast Disciple version)
1 Flash (slow Kiki version)

11 Fish / Threshold / Gro
2 Countersliver
1 Homebrew
1 Dragon Stompy
1 Faerie Stompy

4 Goblins

2 Iggy Pop
1 Belcher


The four top decks were

UWr Fish
Flash (slow Kiki version)
Gro
UWb Fish



May 15 - Legacy WITHOUT FS, 43 players, single Elimination. Relevant decks:

1 slow UB Flash (actually, four Flash decks were being played, but three of them played Pacts despite the tourney being non-FS, and thus didn't get very far)

16 Fish / Threshold / Gro
3 Countersliver
1 Homebrew
1 Faerie Stompy

3 Burn
2 Goblins
2 Stompy / Sligh

1 Gifts Rock
1 Survival
1 BR Control
1 White Stax

2 Belcher
1 Transreliquat-Time Vault-combo
1 Iggy Pop
1 Reanimator
1 Aluren


The four top decks were

UW Fish
Belcher
Transreliquat-Time Vault-combo
Burn

Janos_Wuryon
05-16-2007, 11:56 AM
Id like to point out a few things that may be getting overlooked.

1. You want to play in a format with nearly every card legal than eventually someone will find a busted combo. get used to it it will happen again and again

2. Just because your current legacy deck cant beat flash doesnt mean flash is the most powerfull and unfair deck ever. If you played some form of control deck than you see flash as another easy matchup barring silly luck

3. Every one has to keep in mind the power and amount of goblins decks in the format but no one is crying that wizard should ban mountains? There are decks that deal with certain strategies well and those that do not. SB's exist to accomodate this RockPaperScissors aspect of magic.

4. Final Point. Sure Future sight might add some cards that make HulkFlash better but it also helps other decks. Llorwyn will add cards that help someone's archtype out I'm sure. Maybe you would prefer it if wizards stopped making new cards and let the game stagnate, that way your deck will always be vialble as is and you as a player can while away the years confidant that nothing will rock your boat.

Shriekmaw
05-16-2007, 12:16 PM
The four top decks were

UWr Fish
Flash (slow Kiki version)
Gro
UWb Fish




I do expect to see the Top 8 of the GP very similar to this. There will be a lot of Gro and Fish decks that do well just because of the number of Flash decks. I do also expect to see CRET Belcher somewhere near the top 8, because the deck is still very good.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a Goblins deck in the Top 16, but I wouldn't expect it with all the Flash decks that it will probably have to face through the 14 rounds of magic.

I think the GP Trials the day before will be a pretty good indication on the number of Flash and hate decks that you will see at the GP.

Nightmare
05-16-2007, 12:17 PM
Jason, I feel like you're missing a large portion of the discussion. While in general, most of your points are true, there are some issues you're overlooking as well.


1. You want to play in a format with nearly every card legal than eventually someone will find a busted combo. get used to it it will happen again and again
While we should welcome broken combos with open arms in a format where every set is legal, part of the governing body's job is to decide which combos are at a higher power level than the rest of the format, and take action on them. This is something most expect on June first. In the mean time, we have a metagame that approaches a binary aspect - the broken deck, and decks that beat it. That isn't exactly a healthy format. Understand that less than three weeks ago, this format was probably the most open format in history. That's quite a change in very limited time.


2. Just because your current legacy deck cant beat flash doesnt mean flash is the most powerfull and unfair deck ever. If you played some form of control deck than you see flash as another easy matchup barring silly luckUntil the point where Flash hit the scene, pure control was a rather underpowered archetype. Having to choose Flash or Control is a very hard pill to swallow for many players who were quite happy playing their favorite aggro deck. While you and I look at it from a "it doesnt matter what deck you're playing, play what wins" perspective, we aren't in the majority in that view when it comes to this format. having entire archetypes invalidated by this deck is not why people choose to play this format.


3. Every one has to keep in mind the power and amount of goblins decks in the format but no one is crying that wizard should ban mountains? There are decks that deal with certain strategies well and those that do not. SB's exist to accomodate this RockPaperScissors aspect of magic.Very recently, people were actively attempting to get cards in Goblins banned. We had similar threads about whether or not Goblin Lackey was warping the format. Those conversations died off, but in this deck we've seen a new imminent threat to the format, and people are justifiably concerned.


4. Final Point. Sure Future sight might add some cards that make HulkFlash better but it also helps other decks. Llorwyn will add cards that help someone's archtype out I'm sure. Maybe you would prefer it if wizards stopped making new cards and let the game stagnate, that way your deck will always be vialble as is and you as a player can while away the years confidant that nothing will rock your boat.What Future Sight offers the deck is open for debate. I happen to believe the deck is better without the "I lose" cards than with them, but that's me. The thing is, anything past this weekend is basically irrelevant, as we've been sprung onto a new and overpowered deck two weeks before the (potentially) largest Legacy event in history. Months of testing and planning was thrown out the window as suddenly, formerly tier 1 decks are invalidated. People are upset about it, and I think they have every reason to speak out about it, regardless of whether that accomplishes anything in the short term or not.

Cabal_chan
05-16-2007, 12:44 PM
1. You want to play in a format with nearly every card legal than eventually someone will find a busted combo. get used to it it will happen again and again

Need it be reminded that WotC removed the errata on Flash, creating the busted combo? If players work long and hard to create a busted combo, or a busted deck even, that's what players do. In this case, Wizards spoon fed one to you, one that orignally had an errata to keep it in check.


2. Just because your current legacy deck cant beat flash doesnt mean flash is the most powerfull and unfair deck ever. If you played some form of control deck than you see flash as another easy matchup barring silly luck

What Mr. Nightmare said. I don't know if others saw it, but I saw a variety of new decks popping up on several forums, probably in anticipation of a pre-Flash metagame at the GP. Hulk Flash not only kills most of these, but many other established decks. These aren't jank pet decks that are being struck down.


3. Every one has to keep in mind the power and amount of goblins decks in the format but no one is crying that wizard should ban mountains? There are decks that deal with certain strategies well and those that do not. SB's exist to accomodate this RockPaperScissors aspect of magic.

Goblins wasn't capable of winning on turn one. Sure, it could have some pretty good starts, but it wasn't something that extensively warped the format to the same extent. Goblins to a pre-Hulk Flash metagame is not the of equivilant Hulk-Flash to the new metagame.


4. Final Point. Sure Future sight might add some cards that make HulkFlash better but it also helps other decks. Llorwyn will add cards that help someone's archtype out I'm sure. Maybe you would prefer it if wizards stopped making new cards and let the game stagnate, that way your deck will always be vialble as is and you as a player can while away the years confidant that nothing will rock your boat.

I think this is going overboard a little bit. This isn't some newly printed card we are talking about. Yes, Hulk is new...sort of. On it's own, it doesn't break the format down the middle. When Flash got its errata removed, there was a problem.

Janos_Wuryon
05-16-2007, 03:23 PM
I agree with what you both have to say but I feel the issue with this deck is, at its core, the frustration over 1. the sheer number of netdeckers running to be on this bandwagon and 2. the fact that the deck allows weaker players to overcome better ones. The card and deck are not the most broken thing in existance because there are cards in all colors(save green) that can counter act the deck. Like most things once the netdeckers all struggle and fail they will move on to something else. In a month we could be debating that Leyline of the void should go becuase it makes reanimator and flash not viable. Also while you look at your format with fear of doom realize that this, like any other adversity is really an opportunity to dominate the lesser players. You know they will play flash, you know they will play flash hate, take advantage. I have seen no less than 6-8 innovations amongst just syracuse players both for and against flash. The better players are being given a good leg up on the field because you know what to prepare for. If you play flash build your version to ignore Leyline. PLaying flash hate, do the same. I agree that the ability of the deck to win on t0 or t1 is problematic but if that happens more than 2 games against you all day than your just unlucky. If the thought was that 80% of the field was playing vial goblins you would be licking your lips just waiting to smash them all day long because your deck has the edge. Why is this any different. ( Ps. sorry about the lengthy replies, Im knot on enough to keep it shorter. )

SpatulaOfTheAges
05-16-2007, 05:56 PM
if the thought was that 80% of the field was playing vial goblins you would be licking your lips just waiting to smash them all day long because your deck has the edge. Why is this any different. ( Ps. sorry about the lengthy replies, Im knot on enough to keep it shorter. )

I'm not sure you have a full understanding of what it means when people say things like "broken" or "healthy meta-game".

It really doesn't matter if you can build a deck to crush the 80% of the field playing Goblins. The question remains;

Why is 80% of the field playing Goblins?

Any deck or card can be hated, but the existence of the Banned List testifies that the DCI doesn't want formats to be dominated by a single card/deck and the answers to that card/deck.


Also, please, you can go over old(ie, the past week) threads where the "points" you think people are over-looking have been gone over to death.

Also also, I haven't seen anyone post the GPT Rockville results. Maybe I'm missing it. It wasn't that bit but the t8 was 5 Flash-Hulk and 32 FoWs.

URABAHN
05-16-2007, 10:25 PM
Also also, I haven't seen anyone post the GPT Rockville results. Maybe I'm missing it. It wasn't that bit but the t8 was 5 Flash-Hulk and 32 FoWs.

Now where could those GPT Rockville Results be? I wonder if they're in the thread called "GPT Results"? (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=131454&postcount=36)

Parcher
05-16-2007, 11:13 PM
The remaining decks outside the Top 8 at Rockville were:

1 Burn
1 Faerie Stompy
1 Angel Stax
1 B/W budget Deadguy
3 Kiki Flash
1 Disciple Flash

But, yes. 9 out of 16 Flash. 5 out of Top 8 Flash. 32 Forces in the Top 8.

8 Wastelands, and Zero Mountains in the Top 8.

Luckily though, Flash hasn't warped the metagame.

Nihil Credo
05-17-2007, 02:05 PM
Well, the solution seems obvious. Ban Force of Will.

Cabal_chan
05-17-2007, 03:00 PM
Well, the solution seems obvious. Ban Force of Will.

Yes. Let's ban FoW and give Hulk Flash even more room to maneuver. Say, if the T8 decks start showing large numbers of Stifles, counters, discard, Meddling Mage, and other assorted anti-Hulk Flash cards, let's ban all of those too.

SpatulaOfTheAges
05-17-2007, 10:58 PM
Yes. Let's ban FoW and give Hulk Flash even more room to maneuver. Say, if the T8 decks start showing large numbers of Stifles, counters, discard, Meddling Mage, and other assorted anti-Hulk Flash cards, let's ban all of those too.

I'm gonna bet he was being facetious.

Nihil Credo
05-18-2007, 01:55 AM
I'm gonna bet he was being facetious.
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/2217/clappingni8.gif

UniversalSnip
05-19-2007, 02:07 PM
In Legacy, Yawgmoth's Will is Ill-Gotten Gains with one mana shaved off. Iggy Pop gets a less amazing name, and that's about the only real difference.

Har de har har. Generally you need a hard tutor, or multiple gains and tendrils with igg. Yawgwin generates so much more mana you can afford to chain brainstorms and so forth in a way igg doesn't, not to mention tossing that leyline crap (and considering we're looking at obscene cards individually, flash would not exist.)

Cabal_chan
05-19-2007, 03:46 PM
I'm gonna bet he was being facetious.

Yes. I was trying to point out how ridiculous the idea of banning hate cards was. I will use sarcasm tags like kombat from MtgSal does next time to avoid any possible confusion.

Janos_Wuryon
05-21-2007, 01:44 PM
Well I have to admit I was wrong. I am always opinionated, usually correct and sometimes blazingly, stupidly wrong. This is one of those times.

I stand by my points that flash poses an issue to many gamers for reasons other that its ability to warp the format and that is a gamer issue not a magic issue.
However, the ability to win a game with one instant, is out of control. After seeing the deck in action at the GP Ive come to conceade these points.

1. Flash combo is too good to be allowed to run rampant.

2. The hate that exists, while good, requires so much work to have a chance of being effective you have to ruin your SB and deck build to use it properly. This creates an unhealthy deck building environ.

3. The cards that hate out the combo are not guaranteed hosers. Leyline can be bounced, extract/extirpate can be wished back into hand.

4. By loading the hate you create a situation where you are no longer playing to win just playing not to lose. The flash players deck is built to win, through hate and therefore has the advantage regardless of what you bring to the table.

5. Finally, every thing the flash deck does is essentially a must deal with situation for you. every tutor, duress, land fetch all potentially cost you the game while very little you do matters to them

AI in no uncertain terms admit that the combo, and the resulting build is too good to be allowed to live and must be banned. Only banning flash will do.

MattH
05-21-2007, 06:15 PM
Well I have to admit I was wrong. I am always opinionated, usually correct and sometimes blazingly, stupidly wrong. This is one of those times.

Look, I don't know how to break this to you, but...we're gonna have to ban you. You're not actually allowed to change your mind, ever. Sorry, you just don't fit in here.

shteev
05-21-2007, 07:30 PM
You know what this whole Flash business reminds me of? Time Vault. Remember the power of Time Vault+Flame Fusilade decks? The DCI stepped in and gave Time Vault some Power Level Errata... excuse me, I mean, they errata'd it to 'restore it to it's original intent'. Whatever the hell that is.

The funny thing about Flash is that the old power level errata was clearly what 'the original intent' of the card was; you get to play a creature at instant speed, but you have to pay it's cost or you don't actually get it. Back in Mirage, when the card was designed, there were no creatures with 'comes into play' or 'leaves play' effects, which meant that any creature you played with Flash, and allowed to die, literally did nothing.

There's definately an inconsistancy here, but I'm not really grousing about that. Quite the opposite, in fact; when a 2 card combo costing 6 mana that killed at sorcery speed arose, the DCI stepped in a nerfed it. I'm quite confident they'll do the same now there's a 2 card combo costing 2 mana that kills at instant speed.

scrumdogg
05-22-2007, 07:00 AM
@ shteev - I think your reasoning is solid, as well as your example. It sums up one of the many points (and fears) many of us have about the effect of Flash on our format. However, you have a lot more confidence in the WOTC & the DCI than I do....:cry: Oh well, we will see what happens on the 1st but even if the combo is nerfed (correctly, the first time, something else they have a long, bad record of doing properly i.e. Necro....) it will still be legal until June 20th, which is a long time to run new, casual, or budget players out of the format at the local level. Some of us were discussing drafting on Sundays for a month instead to minimize that sort of damage.

Nihil Credo
05-22-2007, 10:16 AM
Back in Mirage, when the card was designed, there were no creatures with 'comes into play' or 'leaves play' effects, which meant that any creature you played with Flash, and allowed to die, literally did nothing.Whoa, I didn't know that Man-o-War was such an innovation - you learn something new every day (although, technically, you could use Pyknite to draw a card).

Arctic_Slicer
05-22-2007, 05:56 PM
It was legal in type 1.5 for years. It did nothing broken. Comparatively speaking, it's not overpowered. It's very good, but not broken when compared with the rest of the card pool. For the most part I agree with your other assessments.

Actually they announced the banning of Skullclamp in 1.5 on September 1st 2004, the same day the split they lists for type 1 and 1.5. It was also when they banned the clamp in extended and tribal wars. This means Skullclamp was 1.5 legal for about 6-7 months before being hit with the banhammer; hardly years like you say.

You can see Forsythe's article about it here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/af30).


Cards that are/were banned in Extended: Not every card that has ever been banned in Extended is banned in this new format, but we felt the most powerful ones had no place here. These include Earthcraft, Goblin Recruiter, Hermit Druid, Land Tax, Oath of Druids, Replenish, and newly exiled Skullclamp and Metalworker. With “1.5” now a little less like Vintage and a little more like Extended, it makes sense that the banned list is a compromise between the two. Most of these cards are very cheap combo enablers that are hard to defend against.

Skullclamp and the other cards mentioned in that paragraph were banned for being "cheap combo enablers that are hard to defend against". By this same criteria it seems resonable that Flash needs to be banned as well. Anyway it will be interesting to see what June 1st 2007 brings.

shteev
05-24-2007, 08:22 AM
Actually they announced the banning of Skullclamp in 1.5 on September 1st 2004, the same day the split they lists for type 1 and 1.5. It was also when they banned the clamp in extended and tribal wars. This means Skullclamp was 1.5 legal for about 6-7 months before being hit with the banhammer; hardly years like you say.

You can see Forsythe's article about it here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/af30).



Skullclamp and the other cards mentioned in that paragraph were banned for being "cheap combo enablers that are hard to defend against". By this same criteria it seems resonable that Flash needs to be banned as well. Anyway it will be interesting to see what June 1st 2007 brings.


I'm glad you brought my attention to that article... I confess I hadn't really considered the power of Flash compared to cards that are already on the banned list, as opposed to just the current tier 1 cards.

It would seem ludicrous to have Flash+Hulk legal in a format where Hermit Druid, Oath of Druids, and Earthcraft are all banned, would it not? You just can't build AS degenerate a combo deck with those cards...