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revenge_inc
05-09-2007, 12:16 AM
To make sure everyone sees it, I started a new thread.


http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/askwizards/0507


Q: Flash and Protean Hulk now make a combo that's one heck of an elephant in the Legacy room, and I fear for GP–Columbus. Are there any plans to fix this at the last second before the Grand Prix?
–Kevin, Iowa USA

A: From Aaron Forsythe, Director of Magic R&D:

We will be sticking to the normal Banned & Restricted list update schedule; as a rule, we do not ban cards at other times. You can read Randy Buehler's old article Extended Thoughts for more insights into the B&R policy and our avoidance of "emergency bans."

For those who aren’t aware, Flash was given power-level errata in 2000. We removed that power-level errata, as is our policy, when it was found during the most recent Oracle update. We will not be reissuing errata for the card Flash or any other cards changed during the Future Sight Oracle update.

All the attention paid to the recent functionality change of Flash has caused us to reevaluate how we disseminate such information, however, so we are working on a much more public and visible method of highlighting Oracle and Comprehensive Rules changes going forward.


Discuss!

Sims
05-09-2007, 12:26 AM
There is nothing to discuss. We expected this.

If by the morning of the next B/R update goes live, I don't see the words "Flash is Banned" under Legacy, the format will be a joke. The primary deck in the format will be more powerful than pretty much anything on the B/R list currently. I don't think playing in a format where you are forced to play Black or Blue to stand a chance at seeing the higher tables (post Future Sight and GP) is really not a fun format. This is coming from someone who plays what we call in this area "Sci Fi magic," where pretty much anything goes as long as you own the cards.

This deck is simply not healthy for the format, and since I can't go to the GP, I suppose I'm fortunate that I have the ability to wait for the B/R update.

cdr
05-09-2007, 12:49 AM
Some part of Flash/Hulk will be banned on 6/1 - I'll take any bet. 95% on Flash.

dre4m
05-09-2007, 12:50 AM
Does it seem like they could have picked a much better time to "notice" this? I sincerely doubt that the power level errata on Flash has been breezed over by the DCI for seven years.

Nydaeli
05-09-2007, 12:52 AM
Does it seem like they could have picked a much better time to "notice" this? I sincerely doubt that the power level errata on Flash has been breezed over by the DCI for seven years.

At least they're admitting that their timing sucked.

Machinus
05-09-2007, 12:55 AM
It doesn't make any sense to ban anything but Flash. Errata'ing Flash was the problem, and banning Flash is the solution.

Happy Gilmore
05-09-2007, 12:58 AM
It doesn't make any sense to ban anything but Flash. Errata'ing Flash was the problem, and banning Flash is the solution.

QFT and justice. I want to go back to playing magic after june 1st (Flash.format is not magic). If not, I guess I'll start playing limited again.

cdr
05-09-2007, 01:03 AM
I sincerely doubt that the power level errata on Flash has been breezed over by the DCI for seven years.

From what Forsythe said, it really has been overlooked. And to be fair, the new policy has really only been in place about a year, not seven.

And yes, the timing is the root of the whole problem.

Wobbles The Goose
05-09-2007, 01:17 AM
At least they're admitting that their timing sucked.

No they aren't.

In all likelihood, someone probably just happened to do a week of Card of the Days involving cards with the same names as mechanics, happened upon Flash, made a comment about how poorly templated it was and that they should change it back to someone in charge of such things. From there, it was added to the list without a second thought about it's impact. If that was the case, it seems like issuing an apology and re-errataing it on May 1st when Oracle was being updated again seems like a way better way to save face and the GP then not admitting the mistake and just blundering forward hiding behind a loosely enforced policy.

The scary thing is that it's only causing them to reevaluate how Oracle changes are announced. It would be more reassuring to hear that it was causing them to rethink how these decisions are made in the first place. Leaving it up to chance and MaGo seems to have failed pretty miserably so far.

lavafrogg
05-09-2007, 01:23 AM
My favorite part of the article was in the linked article on the B/R policy:

"Mind's Desire turns out to be no better than the other combo decks that were already around, but it's not exactly an endorsement of a format when people are defending it by saying "it's just one more turn-3 kill deck."

I can see them in their towers saying the same thing about Hulk Flash...bastards. I am iunterested to see what happens at the GP. I mean either a fast combo deck or a anti-combo deck will win. But conversly this could be the rise of control.

Without fearing lackey a more traditional control deck can be played...sort of a BBS or a Forbidian. I have a SexyRector deck build that uses Ancient Tomb to power out a Rector (Humitity=game) or Morphling that has a 50/50 Hulk match up right now. It mains chalice of the void and is pretty mean but had an difficult goblins matchup. Im just saying this is opening a piece of our metagame that has not been seen yet.

Instead of an aggro deck being the top deck a combo deck is. Instead of running bolt/stp/goose we now have to run duress/stifle/(insert non blue of black one mana spell that doesnt lose to hulk).

It is an interesting shift, extract is now playable and is actually really good against the better versions of flash(kiki jiki)n and the other vesion of flash either wins on turn 1/2 or it dead draws itself (20 slots dedicated to nothing)

The other half of me was a solidarity/lftl player and hates the fact that I now play IGGy Pop for the maindeck leylines. This deck shifted the metagame away from the format that we loved where aggro and fun spells and multicard synergies were possible.

Overnight Legacy just grew up...Welcome to Combo Summer bring your shades

Tacosnape
05-09-2007, 01:32 AM
Some part of Flash/Hulk will be banned on 6/1 - I'll take any bet. 95% on Flash.

What odds are you offering on this?

Caboose
05-09-2007, 01:46 AM
Fucking shame...Aaron Forsythe will be getting his ass kicked on sight when/if I meet him.

cdr
05-09-2007, 02:00 AM
What odds are you offering on this?

What do you want?

TheInfamousBearAssassin
05-09-2007, 03:42 AM
Mind's Desire turns out to be no better than the other combo decks that were already around, but it's not exactly an endorsement of a format when people are defending it by saying "it's just one more turn-3 kill deck.

?

What is this... "turn 3"?

Hummingbird TG
05-09-2007, 04:51 AM
What is this word "turn"? How come when it's my turn my opponent still gets to play this stupid 1U spell which wins before I get to do a single thing? Isn't it supposed to by my turn?

DeathwingZERO
05-09-2007, 06:32 AM
What is this word "turn"? How come when it's my turn my opponent still gets to play this stupid 1U spell which wins before I get to do a single thing? Isn't it supposed to by my turn?

Ya, too bad we never had an instant speed combo deck that won on the opponents turn in a respectable timeframe until Flash showed up.....

Oh wait. :P

There's really no point in bitching at this point, anymore. We know it's not going to get touched at the GP. Show up with it, or show up to hate it out. We'll see what they decide to do once they see the results.

Leftconsin
05-09-2007, 12:24 PM
?

What is this... "turn 3"?

The anomalous time flux when your hand is Flooded Strand, Polluted Delta, Mystical Tutor, Wordly Tutor, Force of Will, Daze, Force of Will.

Expect turn three to be gone after the 20th.

LandDestroyer
05-09-2007, 07:21 PM
I'm at work waiting for some jobs to run and wanted to vent about this a little. I guess this thread is as good a place as any. As frustrating as decks like TES, etc can be, you can build decks to beat various things enough.

What WOTC has done here is waste all of the time we all spent pre April 20th (or whenever the errata changed). All of the time we took out of our life to test decks for the 1 Grand Prix we get so we could support the format and Wotc, and travel all this way for a GP. Now, they say, "we have the power to say, sorry, you wasted all that time...now with only 1 month before the GP you have to start over with 1 single deck in mind, play this or play something that beats this (which is hard, so it may *only* beat this deck). Oh, btw...on the draw this deck can kill you on turn zero with force of will back up, or turn 1 it can cast orim's chant and win with fow back up (lotus petal, any land that fetches blue or white...b/c that's hard, either spirit guide, orim's chant, flash, hulk, daze, fow).

Oh, and they can also easily run duress (which most version run instead of chant but my build ran both). So they can chant, duress, misdirect, and counter your spells. They only have to resolve 1 spell and win that turn, and if you main deck leylines...they main deck bounce, it's all good.

My group is considering not going to the GP and quitting constructed totally in the face of WoTC who will just up and ruin a format 1 month before it's major event. That'd be like a month before regionals saying you can play cards from any set, here is the new ban/restricted list for type 2...except even that wouldn't be that bad, b/c at least type 2 has champs.

I hope no insensitive little 5417 flames me for this little rant...I just wanted to get it out of my system while I'm doing stupid slow stuff at work. Maybe I'll see you at the GP, maybe I won't....I really don't want to drive all that way to mirror match all day.

Blarg, we should just all go punch any wotc employees we see there that day. I only lost 4 games during the 8 rounds at the legacy champs at gencon, and really looked forward to doing well at this GP...but now I just hate Wizards.

- Chris

P.S. Please don't be an @$$ and flame me for this post...I'm tired of it. Do something more productive.

Edit: Found 2 typos in this post 8+ years later. I quit magic after this Grand Prix because of what the DCI did (making this change 1 month before the only Grand Prix we got and not doing an emergency ban - wasting 2 years worth of testing legacy) and how the Grand Prix went. If I hadn't already booked the hotel my friends and I wouldn't have gone. I had to change decks b/c the deck I'd spent the money to build and tested for 2 years had 0 chance against Flash/Hulk and I had to switch to 'Hanni fish'. Flash/Hulk won the GP and I went 6-3 losing to Flash twice so didn't make day 2. Me and several friends quit magic afterward. I didn't play constructed again until 2013 with just a few prereleases in between. I sold my collection in 2007 after the GP. Seeing posts like this makes me regret getting back into the game. Things have only gotten worse.

Cait_Sith
05-09-2007, 07:38 PM
I wouldn't worry about the flamers. My friend recently introduced me to Warhammer 40K and since both it and Magic are enormously expensive my options are to either A: Split my cash between MtG, DnD, and Warhammer 40K, or B: Drop out of one or two of them.

Since I really don't need to buy any more DnD books for the moment and MtG is not looking so hot (Time Spiral block was just too disappointing compared to Ravnica block, all it really gave us were 4 different borders in a single block; Legacy has just been given a thorough raping) it seems logical to not really make any effort to acquire to participate much until Flash is banned (and Lorwyn rotates in. It had best be good.)

Aggro_zombies
05-09-2007, 07:45 PM
Well, this isn't surprising. Unfortunate, but not surprising.

Along with Hanni, I was one of the few who originally opposed a knee-jerk banning of Flash. However, as the deck has evolved and the newer, slower, more resilient versions have come to light, I have revised my position. I do not think that Flash should be allowed to overrun the GP, especially given the ridiculously high win percentages of the "Jack Flash" builds and the virtual impossiblity to hate the deck out. My secret hope is that the Top 8 consists of nothing but Hulk Flash, so that Wizards will have to admit that it made a mistake. Also, the tournament coverage would be pretty damn funny. "Let's go over the decklists...oh wait, they're all the same, never mind."

Even mono-blue control decks with 20+ counters can't reliably beat Hulk Flash. What the fuck, Wizards.

EDIT: If you have Flashes and want to quit, now would be the time to throw them up on ebay. Playsets of Mirage Flashes are going for over $20. Not so bad when the card was worth less than a dollar a few weeks ago.

frogboy
05-09-2007, 10:23 PM
That'd be like a month before regionals saying you can play cards from any set, here is the new ban/restricted list for type 2...

The last couple years, the third set of the most recent block has become legal like the week before or the day of Regionals. just fyi.

Phantom
05-09-2007, 10:30 PM
The last couple years, the third set of the most recent block has become legal like the week before or the day of Regionals. just fyi.

When it became legal, was it a surprise to anyone?

(Note that I'm not trying to be a sarcastic dick. I don't keep up with this stuff.)

TeenieBopper
05-09-2007, 10:33 PM
The last couple years, the third set of the most recent block has become legal like the week before or the day of Regionals. just fyi.

Right, but one knows a good three months in advance whether or not a set is going to be legal for regionals. With spoilers and previews, one knows all the good cards with sufficient time to plan accordingly. Also, the amount of players testing for T2 far outweights the number testing Legacy, so while the number of man hours to discover some secret tech or progression might be the same, the actual time passed is going to be much less for the T2 crowd. T2 is also predicated on the assumption of format shake up on the magnitude of new sets or possible card combinations.

barron
05-09-2007, 11:47 PM
Really what bothers me is their oversight and inaction ruined what would have possibly been the biggest legacy tournament of the year, and a tournament that people have been looking forward to, and prepping for, as soon as they heard of it.

umbowta
05-10-2007, 12:12 AM
Really what bothers me is their oversight and inaction ruined what would have possibly been the biggest legacy tournament of the year, and a tournament that people have been looking forward to, and prepping for, as soon as they heard of it.Absolutely! It bothers me because I personally know the people who are running the GP and need a good turn out. I have no doubt that attendance will be down because of this.