Ban Force of Will?

[Wobbles The Goose]

Godzilla responded to my post in the goblin ringleader thread, but the discussion seems so off topic, better to respond in a new thread.




Where you aware that there is not a single 50+ person tournament since the creation of the format where the top 8 didn't include 4x Brainstorm 4x Force of Will?
Worse still, did you notice that literally every single deck in those Top 8's runs at least two lands? Soooo overpowered. Look, just because a card sees a lot of play doesn't make it fundamentally unfair. There have to be cards that are better than the rest by the very nature of the game. That's absolutely fine until you have one or more cards which are leaps and bounds better than the rest, to the point of forcing highly specific strategies or colors as the only viable options. Flash clearly fits this definition. Lackey arguably does, although it could be considered to be on par with cards like Brainstorm, Ritual, Wasteland, and Force of Will, particlarly because it doesn't win the game outright.

It's okay (and in fact healthy for a format) when certain cards or decks require every other deck to consider how they will answer them, so long as said answers are available to a wide array of colors and archetypes. That's really what sets Flash apart from the pack here. Literally every single color in the game has a plethora of answers to a first turn Lackey. Realistically, only two colors have an answer to a first or second turn Flash into Hulk becked by disruption. I have no problem at all with extremely powerful cards which validate certain strategies and delegitimize others, but that can go too far. I would argue that that point has been reached when less than half the colors in the game can be used to make anything better than Tier 3 decks.

I agree with this. Flash is broken. Force of will sees a lot of play, and I agree that that alone doesn't make it unfair. Although, when the analogy to describe how prevalent Force of Will is by comparing it to having more then two land in your deck, it seems that maybe it's a card worth looking at. The important thing to consider is that if force of will is unfair, it isn't going to be unfair in the same way that flash or lackey is. Both of these cards lend themselves to a single deck type, while Force of Will is played in virtually every deck with blue. Can a card really be so widely played, and not be an unhealthy element in the format?

Flash is the best threat in legacy. There are few answers to it, it's cheap, and it instantly wins the game. Force of will is the best answer in legacy, and probably ever printed. It's really hard to evaluate the effect of an answer on a format, especially one as flexable as FoW. The threat posed by force of will is that broken formats rely on it alone to maintain any sort of interaction. This has been pushed to an extreme in Legacy with Flash and what's inherent to T1. The threat of force of will is largely the only thing keeping degenerate decks in check, and this was largely true prior to flash. This makes helps equate a format's health to how many cards would you also have to ban if you banned FoW? Personally, it seems like even one other card is too high, as means that answers aren't available in a wide array of colors and archtypes and that the format is likely unhealthy. The problem is that Force of Will is so good that it's impossible to identify how big that number is. Force of Will is not only solving the broken and nonbroken cards alike, but also protecting weaker combos against legitimate solutions. This adds up to a situation where the format is likely unhealthy, but it only comes up when something comes along like Flash.

Thoughts?

[Machinus]

What are you going to counter Flash with?

[Wobbles The Goose]

What are you going to counter Flash with?

A Banning.

[Citrus-God]

When you ban cards, you should ban them because they're threats not answers. Mana Drain is an answer, yes, but it's a proactive answer in a form of a threat/enabling a threat.

[Wobbles The Goose]

When you ban cards, you should ban them because they're threats not answers.

I disagree. When you ban a card, you should ban the card because it is unfairly distorting the format in favor of one color or deck type. Force of Will does this because it's the best answer ever, and it's also the only one that solves other cards that would be banned were it not for the existance of Force of Will.

[Xero]

No. Force of Will makes the format better not worse. Or would you prefer Belcher and TES dominating the format?



When you ban cards, you should ban them because they're threats not answers

Exactly. It would be like banning Duress. Neither does anything to win the game, they just slow your opponent down.

[AnwarA101]

What are you going to counter Flash with?

You don't counter it!

[Wobbles The Goose]

No. Force of Will makes the format better not worse. Or would you prefer Belcher and TES dominating the format?
It would be like banning Duress. Neither does anything to win the game, they just slow your opponent down.

If the only thing keeping Belcher and TES from dominating the format is Force of Will, then something needs to be done about Lion's Eye Diamond or the other acceleration. I shouldn't have to play Force of Will to win these matchups, that's an unhealthy format.

Force of Will is way better then duress; it's not even close. Not the least of which is the fact that only FoW stops a turn one kill OR a goblin lackey.

[Xero]

If the only thing keeping Belcher and TES from dominating the format is Force of Will, then something needs to be done about Lion's Eye Diamond or the other acceleration. I shouldn't have to play Force of Will to win these matchups, that's an unhealthy format.


If you don't like powerful formats, maybe you should give Standard a try.

[freakish777]

I'd be comfortable with Force of Will getting banned assuming the following cards also got banned:

Dark Ritual
Lotus Petal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Chrome Mox (maybe)
Rite of Flame
Goblin Lackey
Flash (I think this is obvious though)
City of Traitors
Ancient Tomb
AEther Vial
Mox Diamond (maybe)
Elvish Spirit Guide (maybe)
Simian Spirit Guide (maybe)

maybe some other stuff too.

Sound like an even trade?

Really, how many decks that play blue spells don't play with Force of Will? IGGy Pop and what else? If FoW weren't legal, how many of those decks would still get played?

The most powerful (and therefore playable) effects in Blue are countering spells and drawing cards. There aren't really that many playable (blue) counterspells in Legacy:

Daze
FoW
Counterspell
Counterbalance (SB card)
Blue Elemental Blast (not played because it's just a counterspell)

Seriously what else gets run? Pulling FoW out makes the rest weaker. You'd have to weaken the rest of the format, or decide that it's just going to be combo beats Goblins beats B/x aggro control sometimes beats combo.

Hurray for combo being the default deck to play at any given tournament barring an amazing read on the meta.

[Wobbles The Goose]

If you don't like powerful formats, maybe you should give Standard a try.


I totally agree with IBA on this. You honestly think Legacy is a better format post Hulk-Flash? I'd much rather play in a diverse field (in which decks like Angel Stompy can do well) than one in which you basically have to play one of two decks.

[Atwa]

If the only thing keeping Belcher and TES from dominating the format is Force of Will, then something needs to be done about Lion's Eye Diamond or the other acceleration. I shouldn't have to play Force of Will to win these matchups, that's an unhealthy format.

Force of Will is way better then duress; it's not even close. Not the least of which is the fact that only FoW stops a turn one kill OR a goblin lackey.

So does a Orim's Chant (well, it doesn't really kill the Lackey, but whatever).

Force of Will is a good, fair counterspell. It costs you life and you trade 2 cards to counter 1, that's 100% carddisadvantage. Carddisadvantrage is bad lately I hear.

The argument Force of Will should be banned since it's the best answer doesn't make sence. After we ban it, what's next? Ban Daze or Counterspell? Ban Swords to Plowshares? It is the best creaturekill card ever. Ban Duress, since it is the best discard spell ever? What about Polluted Delta?



When you ban a card, you should ban the card because it is unfairly distorting the format in favor of one color or deck type. Force of Will does this.......blablabla


Right, that's why Goblins was a shitty deck before flash became playable. Ever heard of this little deck called Enchantress? Angel Stompy? Be reasonable, if Force of Will was the format distortion you believe it is, these decks wouldn't stand a chanche in a regulair meta.

Force of Will does nothing unfair, it does not warp our format and sure as hell does not make blue the only playable colour. Flash does, but that's a whole different discussion.

I have to agree with Xero here: If you dislike Force of Will, and think that after banning it, the sollution to combo would be to also ban Lion's Eye Diamond, maybe you are not quite ready for older, stronger cards and Extended of Pauper might be the right fdormat for you.

[Xero]

Originally Posted by Xero
If you don't like powerful formats, maybe you should give Standard a try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero
I totally agree with IBA on this. You honestly think Legacy is a better format post Hulk-Flash? I'd much rather play in a diverse field (in which decks like Angel Stompy can do well) than one in which you basically have to play one of two decks.



What's your point, exactly? I think Flash is bad for the format. That doesn't mean I want the format watered down to the point you seem to advocate.

[Iranon]

If anything, Force of Will is the card that holds the format together. Not in actual play but merely from being there.

For example, you don't autolose to fast combo just because you don't have Force. However, those decks would become a lot more popular if they wouldn't have to count on opponents who can agressively mull into Force.



I think it's great that we have a format where almost-degenerate turn-1 decks can coexist with slightly souped-up casual decks, and where people generally don't play the most powerful deck available (opting for reliability instead):

Goblins vs. Fling Affinity
IGGy Pop vs. Spanish Inquisition
UGr Threshold vs. UGr Madness

This is only the case because Legacy is full of efficient and flexible answers. If you think Force of Will is an unfun card, I somewhat agree... but it protects the format from even less fun things. And if you want to get rid of all of those, it wouldn't be Legacy any more.

Now if you're mostly saying you want an eternal format with a low power level (sort of formalised casual), I can understand that. But that's not the Legacy many of us love.

[Citrus-God]

So does a Orim's Chant (well, it doesn't really kill the Lackey, but whatever).

Force of Will is a good, fair counterspell. It costs you life and you trade 2 cards to counter 1, that's 100% carddisadvantage. Carddisadvantrage is bad lately I hear.

The argument Force of Will should be banned since it's the best answer doesn't make sence. After we ban it, what's next? Ban Daze or Counterspell? Ban Swords to Plowshares? It is the best creaturekill card ever. Ban Duress, since it is the best discard spell ever? What about Polluted Delta?

Are you thinking what I'm thinking? If all the good cards get banned, let's build Solar Flare for our next big 1.5 tournament!

[cdr]

What are you going to counter Flash with?

Flash Counter (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=1482). Zing.

[Wobbles The Goose]

Flash Counter (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=1482). Zing.

Banning Flash will be an awesome name for a counter spell eventually.

Personally, I don't think that anything else besides Flash would even need to be banned. There seem to be plenty of answers to all the major combos: Orim's Chant, Stifle, Pithing Needle, Engineered Explosives, Pyrostatic Pillar, Gilded Light.

It's just interesting to see if Force is really the only thing keeping a lid on legacy. I don't dislike playing Force, or even playing against it, but it's certainly one of the most powerful cards, if not the most powerful cards in the format. Fish was one of the best lists before Flash, and likely will be again. Yet it doesn't seem to cause the same responce as saying ban Lackey. Can force of will really be the glue holding Legacy together, yet not as broken as a 1/1 goblin?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The actual answers in control are like the actual threats in combo; they're rarely, if ever, going to get the axe, because they don't actually win the game. I mean, what the fuck, Force of Will makes you Hymn yourself; or you have to pay five mana. Five mana. That's a lot of mana. Mana Drain is the only specifically control card I'm aware of that's banned, and that's for money reasons as much as anything.

When they do try to neuter control, they'll either go after the kill condition, if it's particularly degenerate (Oath of Druids), or, more often, the draw engine (Necropotence and Gush, or in the old list, Fact or Fiction and Regrowth, for instance).

So actually, banning Brainstorm is far more likely than banning Force of Will.

But the only cards I actually want to be banned are Flash and possibly Lion's Eye Diamond. I'd like to see about half a dozen cards come off the list.

[DeathwingZERO]

Banning Force of will turns Legacy into a speed driven Extended. Really, that's it. Force of Will is nothing more than a counterspell. Yes, it can be free. But it costs you a life point, a card, and still won't set you up for some amazing play.

Why is Force of Will even a problem? Because any blue deck that wants some resiliency uses it? It hardly makes it degenerate. It's a powerful card for it's color, but it's hardly making every deck out there USE that color. There's plenty of decks that don't use it, and some of them even pack other blue spells. Oh, and plenty of cards already make it pretty ineffective. REB, Misdirection, Orim's Chant, Duress, Trinisphere, etc....all are pretty useful answers or deterrents to it.

If we don't see Force of Will, we'll see degenerate-like turn 1 combo decks, and decks like STAX coming back in full force, with stupid plays like turn 1 Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Chalice, etc, and creating unbeatable Prison-style decks, as long as they win the coin flip. It'd become total combo vs total control.

In reality, Force of Will GIVES us those second and third turns, because it holds the potentially broken decks at bay. If it were to go, we'd lose a lot of good cards for Legacy, and it'd really turn into Extended.

[revenge_inc]

Nothing new to say, but I'll add my voice. Force of Will and Goblin Lackey, although both powerful cards and major players should not be banned as they do not distort the format. You can win with a deck that plays neither. (assuming a Flash-less format).

Banning Force of Will might even warp the format as it is blue's best answer to a lot of threats.

[Phantom]

But the only cards I actually want to be banned are Flash and possibly Lion's Eye Diamond. I'd like to see about half a dozen cards come off the list.

Would you mind giving me your reasoning behind LED?

[Illissius]

Would you mind giving me your reasoning behind LED?

I assume it's that the format was already moving to turn 1-2 combo decks before Flash, with things like Belcher and TES, which isn't a great thing either.

[Tacosnape]

I'm not so sure LED's the target I want banned for fast combo. I think Empty the Warrens is. But that's a whole different topic.

Banning Force of Will is the most idiotic thing ever. Seriously. You're talking about banning the one card that keeps every match from being fast combo versus fast combo. Force of Will is the sole reason that every janky strategy in the world has to actually struggle to work. It's the glue that holds this format together.

[Phantom]

I assume it's that the format was already moving to turn 1-2 combo decks before Flash, with things like Belcher and TES, which isn't a great thing either.

See, I always thought that LED was holding Goblins in check. I guess I wouldn't mind seeing it go, but I would need further convincing or data.

[Anarky87]

It'd become total combo vs total control.


So order this epic showdown today and catch it on channel 735!!

Seriously, FoW is the furthest thing from distorting the format...Please, use your brain...

The idea of just moving around the format banning cards once their opposition is gone (No Force? Combo rules. Ban LED and other components? Aggro starts hauling ass all over the place. Then what do you ban? Creatures? Why play Magic then?!) is stupid. Right now, FoW is the only card that kind of combats Flash, and even then it's not always successful. This was also true back in the day (Pre-Flash).

FoW is one of the most powerful cards in blue, but if you go around to the other colors, they each have their power cards. Red: Lackey; (Well, used to be) White: StP, Chant; Black: Duress? Ritual? Hymn? (Not sure, a lot of good stuff, Legacy legal mind you); Green: Survival.

FoW stays. I choose to Ban you.

[Tacosnape]

See, I always thought that LED was holding Goblins in check. I guess I wouldn't mind seeing it go, but I would need further convincing or data.

This is why I suggest Empty the Warrens, which could be argued as making too many incredibly fast combo decks too resilient to hate. I completely agree that storm-based combo decks have their place in the competitive world of magic, they're just getting to be really strong. (Comparatively. We're assuming Flash goes byebye, or everything I say will be irrelevant and I'll quit Legacy.) And Empty the Warrens often only needs four spells to create an irreversible turn 1 game state for anything not packing a narrow field of hate for it.

Especially when Belcher starts doing it. Geh.

[TeenieBopper]

Originally posted by FakeSpam

Brain on fire..

Must... lock.. thread...

Ok. Look. I'm only going to say this once. If you have any questions or rebuttals, keep them to yourself.

Oath Sucks. Ok? It's awful. Green is an awful color. Building a control deck around it doesn't make it any better. *see "Druids, Oath of" and "Psychatog" and "Junk, PT" (ok, so junk really isn't a control deck.. well, kinda) Come to think of it, building a combo deck around that color doesn't work too well either. *see "Aluren."

Know why suicide oath was winning in extended back two seasons ago? Extended does not have the following cards: Swords to plowshares, Force of Will. Believe it or not, those cards are powerful enough to be a constant presence in any metagame with the card pool they are legal in. In fact, you may play against those very cards in the next tournament you play in. Or you may even play them yourself. I need a /sarcasm tag really badly.

If you want to play the game where I name a combo, then you name one that stops it, then I name another one.. make a different thread. However, this point counterpoint thing is fucking pointless. Benzo would be moderately playable with entomb. In fact, I would probably play it. I recieve unhealthy pleasure from reanimating fatties. However, if you check my whole existance-of-cards-that-would-slightly-affect-the-extended-metagame-if-they-were-legal arguement above, you will notice that sometimes a big ass fatty isn't that hard to deal with. Also, Tormod's crypt isn't avalable to play in extended. You know, those things you have because you didn't want to lose to Dragon (yet you did anyhow, didn't you?)

Please stop drawing conjecture from extended. It's different cardpools. Ok? We're still more like type 1 than extended. Another thing: The bannings of replenish, skullclamp, etc just because they were banned in extended. Not too bringht. They missed survival of the goddamn fittest. No worries though, it's not like anyone played those cards in old 1.5 anyhow.

This brings us full circle to Oath of Druids, and the fact that green sucks. I know an aggro deck can't handle a turn 2 fatty. Know what? That aggro deck is probably playing green. They weren't going to win anyhow.

Mind twist is a very swingy card. In the absence of good acceleration, it's not that great turn 1. However, turn 4, it empties your opponent's hand. That's pretty frickin' swingy. Of course, this depends on your matchup. I know you aren't playing mind twist in suicide. Why? Because I know you aren't playing suicide. You are a better magic player than that. So I know you didn't just compare mind twist to hymn to tourach. While hymn to tourach is actually more cost effective than a mind twist, Mind Twist happens to be infinately splashable for such a devistating effect.

Metalworker is fine. Metalworker in the current card pool is at just about the right power level for the format. After all, goblin lacky is still legal. Guess what, it's also an artifact and a creature.

I refuse to comment on the very specualtion that a "broken replenish" deck exists. I believe that to be an oxymoron. If by boken you mean "slow and disruptable" then.. nevermind.

In conclusion,

- Discussing B/R changes just make you look dumb. It makes you look like you don't know what you are talking about. I might have a thousand or more mistakes in what I have written above. I most likely do not.

- I blame people who discuss B/R changes like they are smarter than R&D for the change and seperation of the lists. You may be smarter than R&D. That's ok, so is my toaster. Just don't do it. Ok? Don't.

- Green sucks.

[Nightmare]

Possibly the best rant ever posted on this site.

[Atwa]

TeenieBopper,

what's with you any only posting the same Fakespam quote over and over again? I hardly see anything else from you. The quote still rock though!

Does anyone know whay happened to Fakespam? I think it must have been over a year since I last saw something from him (except for that hilarious, but all so true quote).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I miss when Syracuse used to play Magic.


LED: I wouldn't ban Empty the Warrens, because I think it's responsible for making fast combo competitive again in this format (before Flash). And every deck can answer it. They're 1/1s that have to untap. Real fast: Tremor, Sandstorm, Rain of Blades, Echoing Truth, Nausea. Some of those cards even don't suck. Example: The Secret Tech Matt and I had developed for the Vial-Goblins sideboard against TES/Cret was 4x Brightstone Ritual. You go first turn 10 Goblins, I go first turn 10 goblins, but mine are slightly better. And I can tutor up a Sharpshooter.

LED, however, pushes it to the edge of unfairness by giving it too many turn 1 wins. ETW is a powerful win that's often good against control. LED makes Belcher turn 1 kills far too common, however, which is bad for everything not control.

And it's also a Black fucking Lotus in combo. That's gotta count for something.

[AnwarA101]

LED, however, pushes it to the edge of unfairness by giving it too many turn 1 wins. ETW is a powerful win that's often good against control. LED makes Belcher turn 1 kills far too common, however, which is bad for everything not control.

And it's also a Black fucking Lotus in combo. That's gotta count for something.

LED has the tendency to make you lose to 1 Counterspell. Whether Belcher is too strong won't really be assessed until we pass through the Flash format and then we can decide whether Belcher has too many turn 1 wins. Some of its turn 1 wins involve 1/1 creatures and those aren't exactly a turn 1 win. I went turn 1 Empty the Warrens for 16 guys but my Iggy Pop opponent drew his Echoing Truth and I lost. The same thing happened to me against Deadguy Ale, but he drew Powder Keg and my guys disappeared. I think the jury is still out on Belcher.

[TeenieBopper]

TeenieBopper,

what's with you any only posting the same Fakespam quote over and over again? I hardly see anything else from you. The quote still rock though!

Does anyone know whay happened to Fakespam? I think it must have been over a year since I last saw something from him (except for that hilarious, but all so true quote).

He pretty much left the game like most of Syracuse with the separation of the lists.

The reason I post it in ever B/R thread is because the very heart of the rant is that people are stupid and should not be talking about B/R changes. Seriously, ban Force of Will? Is somebody completely batshit fucking retarded?

Apparently, and thus proves the point.

[Atwa]

The reason I post it in ever B/R thread is because the very heart of the rant is that people are stupid and should not be talking about B/R changes. Seriously, ban Force of Will? Is somebody completely batshit fucking retarded?


I can't agree more. Seeing you post that quote every once in a while puts a little smile on my face, even before I read it. I still read it totally every time I see it, since it is pure briliance.


Seriously, ban Force of Will? Is somebody completely batshit fucking retarded?

It is. The worst thing about this whole thread is not the person who proposed it, but the regulair Legacy players who are actually spending time, writing down arguments against it.

[Nightmare]

I miss when Syracuse used to play Magic.For certain, there was a "changing of the guard," but we really still do.

[Finn]

Seriously, ban Force of Will? Is somebody completely batshit fucking retarded?
Going right in source quotes.

Can we lock this bloody thread now?

[Nightmare]

Seems like the plan to go with.