Triggers in the Flash/Protean Hulk combo w/ DotV

[clevecore81]

In terms of fighting this combo, I am trying to understand where the respondable triggers are.

The first issue is that of priority: Where are the points in the combo where the Flash/Hulk player MUST yield priority to the opponent?

Second: Does putting Hulk into play via flash create a trigger on the stack for the opponent to play Swords To Plowshares on Protean Hulk before it is sacrificed?

Similarly, is there an opportunity for the opponent to StP a Disciple of the Vault before SBEs check, sending 0 toughness critters to the 'yard before DotV loss of life triggers are put on the stack.

Third, I assume that each DotV loss of life trigger is a seperate event that will run 21-32 times depending on the number of DotV (3 or 4) and x-cost artifact creatures (6 on 4 DotV, 7 on 3 DotV, or overkill of 8 on 3 or 4 DotV). Survival would be possible with a sacrifice of Children of Korlis while at 1 life, resetting life total to 20, then losing the remaining life from triggers on the stack (probably 13, due to a smart hulk-flash player that had to go off with the DotV combo with a Children of Korlis on your side opting to put you at 7 life and try to kill you with his lotus petals shortly afterwards)

In summation, as best I understand it, the order of "beat hulk flash" plays goes something like this:

Leyline of the Void

Counter Flash
Spell snare seems to be a good idea to pick the countermagic fight, followed by FoW backup ideally

Stifle Protean Hulk's put into graveyard trigger
If you could get the mana up, Trickbind would seem better, but as the deck
is so fast, it seems unlikely barring lotus petal or spirit guide tricks

Get rid of DotV before their triggers hit the stack

Gain more life than you lose

[Watcher487]

Second: Does putting Hulk into play via flash create a trigger on the stack for the opponent to play Swords To Plowshares on Protean Hulk before it is sacrificed?

Simple, HELL NO. Flash resolves after the Hulk hits the yard (that's if they didn't pay the mana), and ends up on top of your yard. And since you can't play a spell while one is currently being resolved, the term is too bad.


Similarly, is there an opportunity for the opponent to StP a Disciple of the Vault before SBEs check, sending 0 toughness critters to the 'yard before DotV loss of life triggers are put on the stack?

Not really...SBEs are check when ever you play a spell or pass priority anyway so the 0 toughness critters are going to the yard with DotV in play.


Third, I assume that each DotV loss of life trigger is a seperate event that will run 21-32 times depending on the number of DotV (3 or 4) and x-cost artifact creatures (6 on 4 DotV, 7 on 3 DotV, or overkill of 8 on 3 or 4 DotV). Survival would be possible with a sacrifice of Children of Korlis while at 1 life, resetting life total to 20, then losing the remaining life from triggers on the stack (probably 13, due to a smart hulk-flash player that had to go off with the DotV combo with a Children of Korlis on your side opting to put you at 7 life and try to kill you with his lotus petals shortly afterwards)

That you can do because DotV triggers all go on the Stack.

[Tacosnape]

The points at which priority must be given to the opponent are as follows:

1. After the HF player casts Flash, before it resolves.
2. After the resolution of Flash, with the Protean Hulk trigger on the stack.
3. After the resolution of the Hulk Trigger and after 20+ separate Disciple Triggers have been placed on the stack.

Therefore these are the only points at which you can attack the combo with any sort of reactive disruption. (And no, you can't stop the Disciple triggers from going on the stack without there being a replacement effect involved.) Here are a few ways to do each.

1-A. Counter the Flash with Force, Snare, wtfever.
1-B. Play your own Flash and combo off first.

2-A. Stifle or Trickbind the Hulk trigger.
2-B. Play some sort of spell that rips the Disciple of the Vaults from their library.
2-C. Make them draw a bunch of cards in hope that you send the Disciples into their hand.

3-A. Cast Gilded Light or something similar, making you an illegal target for the Disciple triggers which would then be countered upon resolution.
3-B. Use some sort of life-recovering ability like Children of Korlis after the first eighteen Disciple triggers resolve.

Your second point: No. The triggered ability is not put on the stack until Flash is finished resolving. Since the Hulk both enters and leaves play during the resolution of this spell, there is no chance for you to do anything to the Hulk if you let Flash resolve. Similarly, you can't touch the Disciples until all of their triggers are on the stack, and removing the Disciples from play will not cause the triggers to behave any differently upon resolution.

EDIT: Why is it that every time I start answering something in the rules thread there's another post that beats me to it? :)

[Nightmare]

Here is the step-by-step possible ways to disrupt the combo, utilizing the Disciple, and then the Kiki, win:

Both wins:
Leyline of the Void/Samurai of the Pale Curtain - Shuts off the Protean Hulk trigger, as well as Disciple Triggers.
Meddling Mage/Counterspells/Chalice at 2 - Stops the Flash from resolving.
Trickbind/Stifle on the Hulk "graveyard from play" trigger - Stops the combo in it's tracks, cannot easily be Misdirected.

Disciple win:
Lifegain (Children of Korlis, Martyr of Sands) - This combo can only do 32 "damage." Put your life higher than that (effectively, for Children) and they have trouble winning.
True Believer - You cannot be targetted with the Disciple Triggers.
Shared Trimph - Names one of the artifact creatures, prevents that X casting cost creature from going to the yard.

Once the Hulk graveyard trigger has resolved, with the Disciple win, you've lost. Regardless of what you try to do, if you pass priority on the Hulk trigger, you never recieve priority again until there are a bunch of Disciple triggers on the stack. These will go on the stack even if the Disciples are destroyed, or if you have Enginnered Plague naming Cleric. Effectively, once they are coming into play, you've lost.

Kiki win:
This is a bit more disruptable.
Pithing Needle - names either Carrion Feeder or Kiki-Jiki.
Extirpate - remove the Hulk before they reanimate it, using either Body Snatcher or Karmic Guide. Either way, the combo is over.
Swords to Plowshares - Kills Karmic Guide in response to Kiki activation. With Benevolent Bodyguard, this is inefficient.
Red removal - If you "Shock" Karmic Guide in response to Kiki targetting, the choice is to either let Karmic die, or give it pro:Red. Either way, the combo is halted.
Engineered Explosives at 1 - Kill the Feeder, kill the combo.
Propaganda/Ghostly Prison/Elephant Grass - Good Luck attacking for infinity through these.
Engineered Plague - names zombie, kills Carrion Feeder as it enters play.

There may be more ways to disrupt, feel free to add to this list.

Edited second category from "Both wins" to "Disciple win". Removed EE at 0. Added a couple options to both lists. - Zilla

[tivadar]

When the player casts flash, he'll get priority immediately, and then presumably pass it to you, so you obviously have the option of countering.

No one gets priority during the resolution of a spell, and one of the things that the resolution does is force the flash player to sacrifice hulk, so at no point will hulk be in play when any player has priority.

Hulk going to the graveyard sets up a trigger. I believe that the active player (whoever's turn it is) would get priority once this trigger is on the stack. The only time the non-active player gets priority is immediately after he/she casts a spell. This will mean you can respond to the trigger on the stack, such things as stifle will work. You can also do something such as remove his graveyard with crypt, if he's playing the karmic guide version.

Putting the creatures into play is part of the resolution of Hulk's ability. They all come into play at essentially the "same time". And no one has priority while they are put into play.

State-based are checked immediately before anyone would receive priority, this means the creatures go to the graveyard after the spell resolves, but before anyone gets priority, so you can't STP a 0/0 creature. Also, as soon as the creatures hit the graveyard, the triggers for disciple are put on the stack, which means, after protean hulk's ability resolves and you/the flash player get priority, you're already facing down 20-30 disciple triggers.

You are right about the Korlis Children, things would happen exactly the way you said.

Some quick notes on your hate:

Gilded Light/Vialed True Believer works extremely well against DotV variants, as it makes them commit not only Flash and Hulk to the board, but also their entire win condition. You play it with all the triggers on the stack and they're countered. Of course, the Hulk player will counter your Gilded/stifle your vial with as many resources as they have in hand. Gilded light/True believer don't work against the Kikki version however.

Leyline is good, and can't be countered, but essentially only trades 1-1, as they'll bounce it (1 card) before going off.

Counter is good, see above, but once again, only trades 1-1 against Flash.

Stifle/Trickbind trade 2-1, so they're slightly better (at least than counters), but the Flash player will do what they can to not allow these to resolve. Trickbind is obviously better, because it negates their counterspells.

You can't get rid of DotV before trigger stacks, unless of course they hardcast them. You can however occassionally beat the Kikki version with removal (especially red).

As for gaining life, this only works against the DotV version, and doesn't work that well. If you can gain > 10 life in two turns, all the power to you. I've played white for a while, I'm not sure it's possible... Also, while you're gaining life, you're probably not putting them on a very good clock.

EDIT: I checked and believe I am right, EE@0 doesn't work. When a card is copied, the casting cost is also copied. This means that those karmic's have a converted mana cost of 5. Please let me know if this is incorrect, but pretty sure it's not.

[Nightmare]

EDIT: I checked and believe I am right, EE@0 doesn't work. When a card is copied, the casting cost is also copied. This means that those karmic's have a converted mana cost of 5. Please let me know if this is incorrect, but pretty sure it's not.You're right. I overthought it, comparing it to Empty the Warrens, which is wrong. EE at 0 doesn't do anything to either win.

[Lego]

Once the Hulk graveyard trigger has resolved, with the Disciple win, you've lost. Regardless of what you try to do, if you pass priority on the Hulk trigger, you never recieve priority again until there are a bunch of Disciple triggers on the stack. These will go on the stack even if the Disciples are destroyed, or if you have Enginnered Plague naming Cleric. Effectively, once they are coming into play, you've lost.

This is incorrect. There are a couple things you can do before or during the resolution of the Disciple triggers. Gilded Light and Children of Korlis are the only effective ones that come to mind.

Other than Gilded Light, I think you may have hit them all. (All the good ones anyway.)