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View Full Version : Articles: BDM and Aaron F both mention Flash



revenge_inc
05-11-2007, 12:06 AM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/bd279

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/af170

What do you guys think?
A least they acknowledged there was a serious issue...I would have liked a comment from MaGo

(Feel free to lock this if this doesn't belong in a new thread)

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/fcpics/week/bd279_HulkFlash.jpg

Godda love that picture though...


EDIT: It was cool that Anusien got props from Aaron F.

CynicalSquirrel
05-11-2007, 12:47 AM
I'm glad that they at least acknowledged the issue in full, but I still find it hard to be satisfied with the way they are handling this. I also find it very hypocritical of them to say that they're basically okay with decks maindecking cards like Leyline of the Void just a short time after they nuked Raffinity because decks were maindecking Oxidize and other artifact hate. To me they're basically telling us that Legacy is at the very bottom of their totem pole as far as formats they care about, and that anything that happens in Legacy barely shows up on their radar.

umbowta
05-11-2007, 12:51 AM
Godda love that picture though...I wonder if it would be worth my time to get that artwork printed onto a playset or two of Flashes.

MattH
05-11-2007, 12:58 AM
To me they're basically telling us that Legacy is at the very bottom of their totem pole as far as formats they care about, and that anything that happens in Legacy barely shows up on their radar.

If you weren't already assuming that, you were completely delusional. Welcome to the reality-based community.

CynicalSquirrel
05-11-2007, 01:01 AM
If you weren't already assuming that, you were completely delusional. Welcome to the reality-based community.
Well I always knew it, but they never just came right out and said it to our faces the way they did with these articles. They could at least humor us. :P

freakish777
05-11-2007, 01:02 AM
I'm glad that they at least acknowledged the issue in full, but I still find it hard to be satisfied with the way they are handling this. I also find it very hypocritical of them to say that they're basically okay with decks maindecking cards like Leyline of the Void just a short time after they nuked Raffinity because decks were maindecking Oxidize and other artifact hate. To me they're basically telling us that Legacy is at the very bottom of their totem pole as far as formats they care about, and that anything that happens in Legacy barely shows up on their radar.


WTF? It took them a year or so to ban Ravager in Standard, and longer still to ban all of the stuff in Mirrodin Block that they did (ie after Mirrodin Block was no longer played with cardboard).

I don't think that's hypocritical at all. Look at the time frames of those bannings. Raffinity was on top of Standard for about a year. Not 3 weeks.

Get your facts straight.

cdr
05-11-2007, 01:18 AM
The one thing I find it odd that they didn't mention is Mind's Desire, which is arguably considerably worse than Flash.

It was banned practically as soon as the card was spoiled, abeit on a scheduled June 1 update.

Caboose
05-11-2007, 02:15 AM
I have a feeling that Flash won't be banned on June 1st. Aaron Forsythe's tone is pretty much "FLASH IS FINE!! HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME!?! I AM THE KING OF THE NERDS!!"

What a tool :rolleyes:

Tacosnape
05-11-2007, 02:39 AM
I have a feeling that Flash won't be banned on June 1st. Aaron Forsythe's tone is pretty much "FLASH IS FINE!! HOW DARE YOU QUESTION ME!?! I AM THE KING OF THE NERDS!!"

What a tool :rolleyes:

This is what I've been telling everyone. They won't ban Flash.

I'll be selling out of magic if I'm correct. When R&D listens to Anusien and ignores the pleas of the masses, magic is doomed.

Caboose
05-11-2007, 02:58 AM
I'll be selling out of magic if I'm correct.

I'll just play Standard for the first time in my life, which is probably what WotC is trying to make us do. They can't get a cut of our secondary market, so they'll ruin the format so we all go back to the jank formats.

If that fails, we can always hold un-sanctioned tournaments and ban Flash from them.

Zilla
05-11-2007, 04:32 AM
This is what I've been telling everyone. They won't ban Flash.
I don't think that's what he was saying. I think he chose his words very carefully because they haven't made any decisions one way or the other. The results of the GP (and possibly following tournaments) are going to determine whether or not Flash gets the axe, nothing else.

LGD
05-11-2007, 05:31 AM
I don't think that's what he was saying. I think he chose his words very carefully because they haven't made any decisions one way or the other. The results of the GP (and possibly following tournaments) are going to determine whether or not Flash gets the axe, nothing else.

Yeah, I don't see how you could come to any other conclusion, unless you were reading things into the article that are not there. He links to an article that while (foolishly) Flash-skeptic does do a pretty decent job of defending current Wizards ban and restriction policy and breaks down at least some ways of dealing with Flash. The article said very little except that it'll get reviewed when the next ban list change roles around and that they were not going to break policy for a single clusterfuck in an older format. Which really makes sense from their perspective, since it would set an incredibly annoying precedent whenever there is a degenerate deck or massive format shift before an event. It has happened before, it will happen again, and given the number of idiots who think cards like Lackey and Force of Will should be banned I can totally sympathize with a desire not to give any expectations of format micromanagement or sudden bannings. Its shitty for us, but from Wizard's perspective it is probably more important that Standard players are confident of things like that Dragonstorm won't get randomly emergency banned. Even if they truely have the best interests of the format in mind from a relatively long view they have nothing to gain and quite a bit to lose by opting to make an emergency ban here. So its shitty, but I'm reasonably confident they'll do the right thing when its the designated time.

Arctic_Slicer
05-11-2007, 07:38 AM
As LGD so nicely put it; emergency bannings are never the way to go because that sets an unhealthy precedent that will do more damage to magic over the long term than Flash combo decks could ever hope to do over a single weekend in a grand prix. Once the card proves it's brokeness on the tournament scene they will announce it's fate on the 1st of June earning it a place on the Legacy banned on the 20th.

Also I really get sick of all the people who say "they don't care about legacy". They do care or else they wouldn't support the format. They wouldn't run Grand Prixs or dedicate a day's worth of articles about the format. Instead of badmouthing wizards all of the time I would rather see people giving them the credit they do deserve. Of course that's unlikely to happen.

Anyway for those attending the Grand Prix I wish you all good luck.

C.P.
05-11-2007, 09:46 AM
I'm starting to doubt if flash will be banned on June. If he thinks that SCG article is gem, I don't know what to say. How is it 'the best summary' when it is full of personal opinion on the metagame?

One thing that looks possible is that flash will not show more than 20% showing, and do maybe little better then goblins or thresh in old GP, and DCI will say 'there is always the best deck' and leave it be. And Mind Over Matter ,Land Tax, and Replenish can sit there and cry. Hell, even the dragon can.

EDIT: A deck with REB and SSG! Total Savage! I knew AF was the best at the format.

AnwarA101
05-11-2007, 10:32 AM
Did anyone notice that TES is listed as Iggy Pop? Its in this article

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/bd279

calosso
05-11-2007, 10:41 AM
Did anyone notice that TES is listed as Iggy Pop? Its in this article

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/bd279

Is there a problem with that?

C.P.
05-11-2007, 10:51 AM
Did anyone notice that TES is listed as Iggy Pop? Its in this article

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/bd279

Wow. That's right. They are so good at Legacy. A New tech. Disguising your deck under the other name. I'll call my B/W sui Red Death from now on.

What a savage tech. WotC never stops to amuse me.

umbowta
05-11-2007, 12:16 PM
... we can always hold un-sanctioned tournaments and ban Flash from them.You know what, Caboose, type 1.5 was born the bastard child of type 1 long before the DCI or the Rules team started trying to play God. It was a format for those of us who got fucked out of being able to open packs with P9 in them. I personally decided to wait for 3rd edition (revised) to come out so that I could buy two full, sealed boxes rather than the open boxes of Unlimted on the shelves at Riders Hobbies.

If you remember correctly, the packaging on individual packs at the time was opaque, allowing one to slide the rare up within the pack in order to see what it was before buying the pack. You can only imagine my dismay when I opened my boxes to find no power at all. Thus began my hatred for WotC. They had created a game, gotten me addicted, and then made the best drugs impossible to get out of packs. Unwillingness to pay the immediately, astronomically inflated prices gave rise to type 1.5, which at the time, banned any card that was cut from Unlimted to Revised. Demonic Tutor, Wheel, Sol Ring, etc. were simply restricted (as they were in type 1) because they were printed in Revised. Then WotC printed 4th :cry:

Anyway, I'm not at all opposed to a total departure from the DCI banned list. It's sometimes feels like they give a fuck less about "Legacy" anyway. I would personally like to see a restricted list come into existence for 1.5. It could be very fun indeed.

Nightmare
05-11-2007, 12:50 PM
This is a terrible idea that basically ends right now. It wouldn't have worked when the lists were separated, it's definately not going to work now. Whether Flash gets banned or not, get over it.

Caboose
05-11-2007, 01:11 PM
This is a terrible idea that basically ends right now.

If Flash isn't banned on June 1st, a shop owner I know will most likely hold an unsanctioned tournament where Flash is banned with Power and/or duals as prize. Hopefully it will begin a precedent for other stores to do the same. I prefer to live in a world where WotC doesn't plug us in to their happy little matrix where Flash is legal.

dre4m
05-11-2007, 01:21 PM
If Flash isn't banned on June 1st, a shop owner I know will most likely hold an unsanctioned tournament where Flash is banned with Power and/or duals as prize. Hopefully it will begin a precedent for other stores to do the same. I prefer to live in a world where WotC doesn't plug us in to their happy little matrix where Flash is legal.

It would be worth my drive from Detroit to Colombus to play in this tournament, but I don't think the legacy community can exert enough pull to basically start making up our own rules, so let's just hope they ban it, but hang on to your Trickbinds in case they don't.

Aggro_zombies
05-11-2007, 01:38 PM
Was anyone else insulted by AF's article? I found the tone of the whole thing condescending. It's like he was saying, "We don't care what you think, peons, because there will always be endless lines of people buying products from our game. So fuck off." Wow. No better way to tell the players that you care about them then by coming off like you get an enormous stick up your ass every time you think about said players!

Caboose
05-11-2007, 01:59 PM
Was anyone else insulted by AF's article? I found the tone of the whole thing condescending. It's like he was saying, "We don't care what you think, peons, because there will always be endless lines of people buying products from our game. So fuck off." Wow. No better way to tell the players that you care about them then by coming off like you get an enormous stick up your ass every time you think about said players!

Quoted for mother fucking truthery.

SpatulaOfTheAges
05-11-2007, 02:00 PM
A)"whether we think the resulting circumstances are unfortunate (we do)" implies to me that they do think action is necessary, just not emergency action.

B)When he references Anusien's article, I assume he was referring to his explanation and defense of the standing policy, which I may not agree with, but makes far more sense than the last part of said article.

Bryant Cook
05-11-2007, 02:32 PM
Anyone else notice they have TES as IGGY POP on that site. ::Insert Angry Face::

Aggro_zombies
05-11-2007, 03:21 PM
Anyone else notice they have TES as IGGY POP on that site. ::Insert Angry Face::
Anyone else notice that about 95% of the people reading that article won't know the difference?

George Bu...er, Wizards of the Coast doesn't care about Legacy. You think they'd actually take the time to, you know, learn the names of the decks?

Tacosnape
05-11-2007, 05:06 PM
I don't think that's what he was saying. I think he chose his words very carefully because they haven't made any decisions one way or the other. The results of the GP (and possibly following tournaments) are going to determine whether or not Flash gets the axe, nothing else.

Okay, after re-reading it while sober, I think I agree with you. However while I agree he's trying to convey the message that no decision has been made, his personal stance in the matter's pretty clear. I do agree with the decision not to make an emergency banning, as I think emergency bannings shouldn't be made, period.


This is a terrible idea that basically ends right now.

Leaving Flash legal is a worse idea. At least this way magic's fun. Although we could just all go play Vintage. It might be slower at the rate we're going.:rolleyes:


Anyone else notice that about 95% of the people reading that article won't know the difference?

George Bu...er, Wizards of the Coast doesn't care about Legacy. You think they'd actually take the time to, you know, learn the names of the decks?

Don't forget, there was a good phase after Worlds where Truffle Shuffle was seriously referred to as Thunder Bluff.

MattH
05-12-2007, 11:24 AM
I prefer to live in a world where WotC doesn't plug us in to their happy little matrix where Flash is legal.

And I prefer to play in a format without you in it. Sounds like a win-win situation here!

You would think some of you guys have no other interests besides Legacy, that you can't just take a break until the format returns to a state where you enjoy it. Oh, wait.

umbowta
05-12-2007, 12:30 PM
And I prefer to play in a format without you in it. Sounds like a win-win situation here!Sweet! Caboose bashing and I didn't even have to do it!

Just so you know, my disdain for the WotC/DCI banned list for Legacy is in no way precipitated by the inclusion or exclusion of Flash. I don't need to "get over it", Mr. Nightmare, I would simply enjoy a separation from the confines of that list so that I could play some of my favorite cards in the game as one-ofs...somewhere other than at my kitchen table. As a tournament organizer/promoter I have always had the option to run unsanctioned events with whatever banned/restricted lists I feel like. The problem has always been getting everyone on the same page. This obstacle could be overcome with the help of The Source.

Why wouldn't an alternate set of B/R rules work for type 1.5? While we should all thank the DCI for bringing the community together so long ago with a consistent set of rules, we might also follow their example. The DCI was/is a centralized rules mediator for the game. This website is mtgthesource.com, "Your Source For Legacy", is it not? This seems like a centralized a powerful enough resource to advertise an alternate set of B/R for type 1.5.

Zach Tartell
05-12-2007, 12:42 PM
Sweet! Caboose bashing and I didn't even have to do it!

Just so you know, my disdain for the WotC/DCI banned list for Legacy is in no way precipitated by the inclusion or exclusion of Flash. I don't need to "get over it", Mr. Nightmare, I would simply enjoy a separation from the confines of that list so that I could play some of my favorite cards in the game as one-ofs...somewhere other than at my kitchen table.

It's called Vintage. Shit, you can even play four of some of them, like Bazaar, drain, and Land Grant.

revenge_inc
05-12-2007, 05:15 PM
And I prefer to play in a format without you in it. Sounds like a win-win situation here!

You would think some of you guys have no other interests besides Legacy, that you can't just take a break until the format returns to a state where you enjoy it. Oh, wait.

Although it leaves a bad taste in my mouth saying this, as I think Caboose is a racist asshole, his frustration is justified. First he learns that Wizards is organizing a GP in the format he prefers, not only that but it's in his hometown. Next he learns that Wizards fucked the whole thing up.

I would be just as pissed if some block constructed deck became broken on June 2nd and ruined GP Montréal. (because that's the closest a GP will get to Ottawa)

cupajoe
05-12-2007, 05:47 PM
Someone could make scads of money if they owned a Magic card shop in Columbus, and advertised an unsanctioned Legacy tourney for decent prizes with Flash added to the banned list

I agree with umbowta....There's nothing stopping this site from coming up with its own b/r list, with a few minor tweaks (I advocate banning Flash, Lion's Eye Diamond and Goblin Lackey and unbanning Land Tax, Mind over Matter, and possibly another card or two)

Call it Type 1.75

cdr
05-12-2007, 06:02 PM
No, no, no.

Making up your own replacement formats is a horrid, horrid idea.

The whole reason the DCI put together formats in the first place was to get away from that.

The DCI knows better than you. Period.

No one is ever going to make "scads of money" off of legacy, and especially not with some faux format.

Illissius
05-12-2007, 06:10 PM
Someone could make scads of money if they owned a Magic card shop in Columbus, and advertised an unsanctioned Legacy tourney for decent prizes with Flash added to the banned list

I agree with umbowta....There's nothing stopping this site from coming up with its own b/r list, with a few minor tweaks (I advocate banning Flash, Lion's Eye Diamond and Goblin Lackey and unbanning Land Tax, Mind over Matter, and possibly another card or two)

Call it Type 1.75

This has historically never, ever worked because people can't agree on a list, and it's trying to split an already small format, where the people who want to play the unofficial one are the minority of a minority.

cupajoe
05-12-2007, 10:01 PM
"The DCI knows better than you. Period."

That's one of my favorite quotes ever....No, they don't, especially if they continue to allow Flash to remain legal for the premier Legacy tourney of the past 18 months or so....

I want to clarify my comments a bit....I would never suggest "Type 1.75" or whatever you wanted to name it replace Legacy, but that it could just be another option for people to play....kind of like if someone wanted to run an unsanctioned Singleton tournament, or whatever

There was a store in Mich that did that, created its own banned list, and the format was fun....

I see nothing wrong with creating a format where people get to play with cards that really aren't super powerful but yet remain on the banned list due to Wizards' inertia, and even possibly banning some cards that should be on the list

Machinus
05-12-2007, 10:09 PM
The DCI knows better than you. Period.

Which DCI are you talking about?

Tacosnape
05-13-2007, 04:41 AM
Which DCI are you talking about?

Apparently the one that flashed the little red light from MIB in front of his eyes and modified his memory.

Ordinarily though, I'd agree with Akki's statement. And I think any deviation from "Everything's as normal except Flash is banned" would spell disaster and I think because people are fucking stupid and think they alone should spell out and dictate the entire B/R list, several other odd formats will emerge.

But here's the rub.

However, if the DCI leaves Flash legal, then in the eyes of many faithful Legacy players the DCI no longer does know any better than the idiots who post pointless unsubstantiated opinions of the B/R list with the attitude that they're right and everyone else is wrong regardless of facts. The DCI in fact becomes that person.

A leader or leading body is only strong when there is faith in that entity's capacity and ability to lead. When the DCI fails to ban Flash on June 1st, or rather if the DCI fails to ban Flash on June 1st, they rip that faith from the hearts and minds of a large portion of their support base. Sure, the format will go on, but the permanent alienation of the large sect who, for right or wrong, believe Legacy to be an awful format with Flash legal (And I am firmly aligned with this belief) will be a crippling blow to the dictator-like authority the DCI holds. It'll survive until a better leader steps forward, but the populace will lose all passion they hold for the government of the DCI.

ForceofWill
05-13-2007, 09:20 AM
It's called Vintage. Shit, you can even play four of some of them, like Bazaar, drain, and Land Grant.

Zach Tartell
05-13-2007, 12:44 PM
@Force of WIll - Yeah, I'm not good.

umbowta
05-14-2007, 10:40 AM
It's called Vintage. Shit, you can even play four of some of them, like Bazaar, drain, and Land Grant.
Yep, and Vintage has stepped away from sanctioned tournaments already because the price of power (among other things) is absolutely rediculous. They are now running proxy tournaments which is an obvious circumvention of the DCI.

I don't like Vintage. I've played Type 1.5 since its inception way back when Ice Age came out and I have no desire to change that now.