Shahrazad

[HPC]

I've been looking at this card lately and had a couple questions regarding how Shahrazad actually works.

So basically I want to know:
1) Is the RFG zone shared between games? If it is then can I play a suspended card from a previous game from it? If it is not then can I wish for Shahrazads in the RFG zone or in parent games?

2) What spells or effects can carry over into a sub-game or back into a main game? Unless I'm mistaken, the wishes can't, nor can Research/Development or Riftsweeper... So what can? Only epic cards?


Relevant rulings:

10/4/2004 If a card is removed from the game (from Disintegrate or whatever) in the sub-game it is still removed from the game when you return to the main game.

10/4/2004 The subgame is part of the main game.

10/4/2004 Events in a Shahrazad sub-game do not normally trigger abilities in the main game. And continuous effects in the main game do not carry over into the sub-game.

[Cait_Sith]

1) I am not sure. I think if you suspend it in the main game it just sits there until the sub game is over. If you suspend it in the sub game it stays in the RFG zone. However, I could be TERRIBLY wrong.

2) Nothing carries over. If you cast Research or a wish you can fetch cards FROM the main game. Epic spells are active in either the main or sub game, but cannot be in both unless one is cast in each.

Edit: Okay, the correct answer for the first question is:

Not quite...
If a card is RFG'ed in the Main Game, it is "Outside the Game" in the SubGame.
However, cards RFG'ed in the SubGame stay RFG'ed in the Main Game.

If you Suspend a card in the Main Game, it is not Suspended in the SubGame, because it is not RFG'ed.
However, if you Suspend a card in the SubGame, it will still be Suspended in the Main Game.

The cards in the Main Game are "Outside the Game" and can be Wished for.

Thanks to Feigel on the MtG forums for these answers.

[cdr]

506.5 All objects in the main game and all cards outside the main game are considered outside the subgame (except those specifically brought into the subgame). All players not currently in the subgame are considered outside the subgame.
506.5a Some effects can bring cards into a game from outside of it. Cards brought into a subgame from a main game are considered to be removed from the main game. Abilities in the main game that trigger on objects being removed from the main game will trigger.
506.6 At the end of a subgame, each player puts all objects he or she owns that were brought into the subgame into his or her library in the main game, then shuffles that library. Cards removed from the game in the subgame are not put into the player's main-game library. Instead they remain removed from the game in the main game.



Outside the Game
An object is "outside the game" if it's in the removed-from-the-game zone, or if it isn't in any of the game's zones. All other objects are inside the game. "Outside the game" is not a zone.


Death Wish 1BB
Sorcery
Choose a card you own from outside the game and put it into your hand. You lose half your life, rounded up. Remove Death Wish from the game.

The "removed-from-the-game" zone is not shared by subgames; rather, cards in the main game are not in any zone and are considered "outside the game".

Edit: Removed-from-the-game cards in the subgame are removed from the main game when it resumes, per 506.6, so abilities that require cards to be in that zone, like Suspend, will continue to trigger. Removed-from-the-game cards from main games are "outside the game" but not in the removed-from-game zone of the subgame, so cards suspended in the main game do not qualify as suspended in the subgame.

You can Wish for cards that were either in the main game or removed from the main game while you're in a subgame, since they are outside the game.

No spells or effects "carry over" from main games to subgames or subgames to main games. When you resume main games, any effects that were there before the subgame are still there.

[Nihil Credo]

So basically, cards that are removed-from-the-game are outside-the-game, but when looked at from another game they are in-this-game.

I didn't know Heidegger was a DCI Judge.

[Wobbles The Goose]

You can Wish for cards that were either in the main game or removed from the main game while you're in a subgame, since they are outside the game.


What happens if, in a subgame, I burning wish for the Shahrazad that created that subgame, removing it from the stack in the main game?

Does the subgame immediately end?

Does the loser of the subgame still lose half their life?

Do I need to place that copy of Shahrazad in the graveyard when we return to
the main game?



Removed-from-the-game cards cards are not brought into subgames or back into maingames, so abilities of removed cards like Suspend will continue to trigger.

If I have a suspended greater gargadon in the main game, cast Shahrazad, move to a subgame, does the Greater gargadon trigger during my upkeep? Can I sacrifice permanents in the subgame to remove time counters from it?

If RFG cards are NOT brought into a subgame or back into maingames, why do they keep triggering in games they aren't in?

To clarify:
If I suspend a greater gargadon in my subgame, when the subgame ends does greater gargadon remain suspended and continue to trigger in the main game?

[HPC]

Here's where a lot of my confusion on the separation of games and epic spells comes from:


From Saviors of Saturday School by John Carter, Saturday, May 21, 2005:

Q: There is nothing talking about what happens when an epic spell is played during a subgame! What happens?...

A: The epic effect stops you from playing spells within that subgame. The main game remains unaffected....


Epic
Epic represents both a static ability and a delayed triggered ability. "Epic" means, "For the rest of the game, you can't play spells," and "At the beginning of each of your upkeeps, copy this spell except for its epic ability. If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for the copy." See rule 502.44, "Epic."


If I played Shahrazad and then an epic spell in response (via Spellweaver Helix), I would be able to play spells in the sub-game and the epic delayed trigger wouldn't trigger?



Gatherer: 10/4/2004 The subgame is part of the main game.

So when a wish states "outside the game" it only refers to the current sub-game you are playing in, not the main game which the sub-game is a part of? I see 506.5 says they're outside the subgame, but the gatherer ruling says it's part of the main game.


506.6. At the end of a subgame, each player puts all objects he or she owns that were brought into the subgame into his or her library in the main game, then shuffles that library. Cards removed from the game in the subgame are not put into the player's main-game library. Instead they remain removed from the game in the main game.

The way this sounds is if I suspend a card in a sub-game and the game ends before the last suspend counter is removed, it will be placed in my RFG zone in the main game where it will continue to remove suspend tokens until I can play it?

[cdr]

What happens if, in a subgame, I burning wish for the Shahrazad that created that subgame, removing it from the stack in the main game?

Does the subgame immediately end?

Does the loser of the subgame still lose half their life?

Do I need to place that copy of Shahrazad in the graveyard when we return to
the main game?

Removing cards from the main game has zero effect on the subgame.

Once a spell begins to resolve, it will finish resolving regardless of what hapens to the card. Think of removing Shahrazad from the game while it's resolving like how Time Spiral (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=time_spiral) or Ill-Gotten Gains (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=ill-gotten_gains) remove themselves from the game while resolving. Spells that were on the stack but had not began resolving when removed will not resolve (this should be obvious with Remand, Venser, etc around).

The Shahrazad you Wished in will have been part of the subgame and will be shuffled into the library with the rest of the subgame cards (unless it somehow got removed from the subgame).


If I have a suspended greater gargadon in the main game, cast Shahrazad, move to a subgame, does the Greater gargadon trigger during my upkeep? Can I sacrifice permanents in the subgame to remove time counters from it?

If I suspend a greater gargadon in my subgame, when the subgame ends does greater gargadon remain suspended and continue to trigger in the main game?

I didn't read the rule closely enough - suspended cards from the main game will not be considered suspended in the subgame, because they are not in the subgame's removed-from-game zone. They won't trigger and you won't be able to use their abilities.

On the other hand, when the subgame ends, a Gargadon you suspended in the subgame will still trigger since cards in the removed-from-game zone of the subgame are moved to the removed-from-game zone of the main game. Since it's in the zone, it's suspended, and it will trigger and you will still be able to use its ability ("play this ability only while this is suspended").


If I played Shahrazad and then an epic spell in response (via Spellweaver Helix), I would be able to play spells in the sub-game and the epic delayed trigger wouldn't trigger?

Like the rules and the Q/A you quoted say, all effects, including ones from Epic spells, affect only the game you are in.

When you start the subgame, you are no longer in the main game. When you return to the main game, the Epic restriction and upkeep trigger will still be in effect for that game.


So when a wish states "outside the game" it only refers to the current sub-game you are playing in, not the main game which the sub-game is a part of? I see 506.5 says they're outside the subgame, but the gatherer ruling says it's part of the main game.

Ignore that ruling, it's confusing and quite possibly outdated. It doesn't matter for anything whether the subgame is "part" of the main game. Anything outside the main game is also outside of the subgame, per the rule.


The way this sounds is if I suspend a card in a sub-game and the game ends before the last suspend counter is removed, it will be placed in my RFG zone in the main game where it will continue to remove suspend tokens until I can play it?

Right, with the caveat that it doesn't work the other way around, as above.

[Cait_Sith]

As a note, if you Wish or Research for a card in the main game, it becomes removed from the main game when the sub game ends:



506.5a Some effects can bring cards into a game from outside of it. Cards brought into a subgame from a main game are considered to be removed from the main game. Abilities in the main game that trigger on objects being removed from the main game will trigger.


Edit: It'll go back into the library. I was wrong.

[cdr]

As a note, if you Wish or Research for a card in the main game, it becomes removed from the main game when the sub game ends:

You're misreading the rule, I think. When you Wish for a card from the maingame, it's being removed from that game, as far as for triggering abilities.

That card you Wished for will be shuffled back in when the subgame ends, because it became part of the subgame (unless, again, it became removed from the game within the subgame).

[HPC]

The way this sounds is if I suspend a card in a sub-game and the game ends before the last suspend counter is removed, it will be placed in my RFG zone in the main game where it will continue to remove suspend tokens until I can play it?

Ok, I did a little more looking into this and I *think* because of rule 217.1f and 217.1c once a sub-game ends and you put suspended cards into your main game's RFG zone, because of the zone change they would lose all counters and knowledge of their prior suspendedness and just be removed from the game. On a related note, does anyone know how to add a time counter to a card that's removed from the game?


217.1c An object that moves from one zone to another is treated as a new object. Effects connected with its previous location will no longer affect it....

217.1f If an object in the removed-from-the-game zone is removed from the game, it doesn’t change zones, but it is treated as a new object that has just been removed from the game.

[Wobbles The Goose]

From 506.6 the card's still aren't changing zones, or being removed from the game again instead "Cards removed from the game in the subgame are not put into the player's main-game library. Instead they remain removed from the game in the main game." That shouldn't be a zone change, so the suspended cards keep going in the main game. It seem's like that'll be changed to bring it in line with the rules you quoted, but subgames don't come up much.


On a related note, does anyone know how to add a time counter to a card that's removed from the game?

All the timespiral cards are carefully worded to avoid being able to put time counters on cards that aren't already suspended, or otherwise have time counters on them. Fortunately, there is always the unglued card Giant Fan, which will work, I think. I'm not sure if a card that's been removed from the game is still a "card" in any reasonable understanding of Giant Fan's text.

[HPC]

So rulings on Shahrazad are as follows:

1) Cards suspended in the main game are considered "outside the game" according to 506.5 and can not be played in a sub-game.

2) However, due to 506.6 stating that cards in the sub-game RFG zone remain in the main game's RFG zone we assume that means that there is no zone change from the sub-game RFG zone to the main game RFG zone and will be able to be played.

3) Wishes, Research and cards that get a card from "outside the game" can be used in a sub-game to fetch a card from a main game. (506.5a)

4) If you fetch a Shahrazad from a main game in the process of resolving it will finish resolving when you return and the losing player will lose half their life. If you fetch an unresolved spell it will not resolve.

5) If you fetch a card in a sub-game it will trigger any RFG triggers in the main game which will resolve when you return to the main game. (506.6)

6) Spells or effects do not carry over into other games. (Oracle ruling 10/4/2004)

Let me know if I need to add to this summary. Admins let me know if I should place this at the top of my question. Thanks.

[Cait_Sith]

Fortunately, there is always the unglued card Giant Fan, which will work, I think. I'm not sure if a card that's been removed from the game is still a "card" in any reasonable understanding of Giant Fan's text.

A card is a card, no matter what zone it is in. However, if a removed permanent has a time counter on it, that means NOTHING. The card needs suspend in order for it to be played at some point. (See: Delay)

[cdr]

502.59b A card is "suspended" if it's in the removed-from-the-game zone, has suspend, and has a time counter on it.

[HPC]

I have another question regarding playing Shahrazad.

If I'm in a sub-game and play a spell and then Delay that spell, if my opponent concedes the sub-game what happens to the spells on the stack? I'm assuming they never resolve and will remain 'outside of the game' in the main game. I'm assuming I can do the same thing to a combo opponent if I'm about to lose a sub-game due to their combo?

[cdr]

Spells on the stack in a subgame when it ends will be shuffled into the library, since they were part of the subgame and were not removed from the game.

A Delayed spell would be suspended and would obviously work as previously discussed. If I understand, you're asking about the other player conceeding before Delay resolves, though.

[HPC]

102.3a A player can concede the game at any time. A player who concedes loses the game immediately.

Yes. I am asking about conceding before the stack has had a chance to resolve.

Since a player can concede at any time, is it possible for a player to concede in the middle of a spell resolving. For instance I play a Wish and after getting my card I can concede the game and the wish wouldn't be removed from the game...?

I was considering making a deck using Shahrazad to remove cards from the main game and/or remove cards from the player's library, but if the opponent can just concede before I can play a Tormod's Crypt then there's really no sense to use Shahrazad for that kind of deck.

[cdr]

This is getting corner-casey, but you can conceed in between atomic actions. You could conceed after you get a card with a Wish but before the Wish is removed. Why you would want to, I'm not sure.

You're right, your deck doesn't seem to work very well if your opponent knows what you're up to.

[URABAHN]

Should we sticky this thread like the Humility thread? Man, things got complicated after Time Spiral.

[HPC]

Something else came up while playing a Shahrazad, so I gots more questions.

Can you look at hidden cards from your main game while in a sub-game? (i.e. are you allowed to look at your main game's hand?)

If not, is there any way to use Burning Wish to fetch a Shahrazad from your hand from a main game?

[cdr]

The main game still exists - it isn't treated any differently even though it's been set aside.

Wishing for a card from your main game hand is similar to Wishing for a card from your sideboard - it's a card outside the game your opponent can't see, but you can, so you can Wish for it.