[Article] Menendian Flash

[Peter_Rotten]

Smendy (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14157.html)

I was wondering why noone was talking about this SCG article. I don't have a premium account and wasn't able to read the article, but I'm still curious about it.

Can someone briefly summarize it without cutting and pasting premium contact? What was his list like? Was it running Mystical Tutor? Was a speed build or more like Jack Flash?

edit! ROFL! I meant to type "withOUT" instead of "with!" See kids, always proofread your work!

[Artowis]

He mentioned that the speed build he was goldfishing at like an 80% clip turn 1 on the draw. After that he mentions the speed builds are pretty bad versions of Flash and after that goes into how the design of the deck isn't really a linear thing and some other crap about systems.

Then he references Legacy as Vintage Lite now and this:


And yet, this is probably to be expected. In Legacy a litany of combo decks are possible, from IGGy Pop to R/G Belcher to Aluren to Flash. It's not unreasonable to demand that most decks interact. It's simply the law of large numbers. Given a card pool big enough, decks will accelerate not simply because of mana acceleration, but because there are more combination of cards that could potentially just win the game without having to rely on creatures in the traditional way.

so yeah, there ya go.

[Peter_Rotten]

Did he actually list his build or just hint at it?

[Artowis]

Did he actually list his build or just hint at it?


Maindeck:
Artifacts
4 Lotus Petal

Creatures
1 Kiki-jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Carrion Feeder
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Karmic Guide
4 Protean Hulk

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Echoing Truth
4 Flash
4 Force Of Will
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Worldly Tutor

Sorceries
4 Duress
1 Merchant Scroll

Lands
1 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Gemstone Caverns

Also before anyone says anything idiotic, he doesn't make any claims about this being an amazing deck or the version to play at the GP. This was just the list he posted for his speed testing.

[dahcmai]

Heh, I had to play against that exact build last Friday. Tore it up with a modified version of Pikula's Rogue a few times over. I'm fairly convinced it loses to discard enough to make BW worth playing.

[Peter_Rotten]

As I have read in the forums, Steve agrees that that list is NOT the list to play at the GP. He claims that a single FoW, Daze, Duress can give it problems.

Generally, the more controlling/slower build is being highlighted as the better deck to play.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

And yet, this is probably to be expected. In Legacy a litany of combo decks are possible, from IGGy Pop to R/G Belcher to Aluren to Flash. It's not unreasonable to demand that most decks interact. It's simply the law of large numbers. Given a card pool big enough, decks will accelerate not simply because of mana acceleration, but because there are more combination of cards that could potentially just win the game without having to rely on creatures in the traditional way.

That seems really short-sighted.

If every deck has some good match-ups, some marginal match-ups, and some bad match-ups, then the best reason to play a deck is your familiarity and any meta-game calls that you make.

If Thresh beats X combo deck 60% of the time and loses to Goblins 60% of the time, and X combo deck beats Goblins 60% of the time and loses to Thresh 60% of the time, you can still call any of those decks viable.

But when Hulk beats [Deck not playing heavy blue and/or black] 90% of the time and loses to [Deck playing heavy blue and/or black] 50% of the time, you have a serious meta-game problem. Now there clearly is a best deck to play, hands down.

And that isn't healthy, and it's not inevitable, and it's not something that people who care about the format like in the slightest.

[Smmenen]

That seems really short-sighted.

If every deck has some good match-ups, some marginal match-ups, and some bad match-ups, then the best reason to play a deck is your familiarity and any meta-game calls that you make.

If Thresh beats X combo deck 60% of the time and loses to Goblins 60% of the time, and X combo deck beats Goblins 60% of the time and loses to Thresh 60% of the time, you can still call any of those decks viable.

But when Hulk beats [Deck not playing heavy blue and/or black] 90% of the time and loses to [Deck playing heavy blue and/or black] 50% of the time, you have a serious meta-game problem. Now there clearly is a best deck to play, hands down.

And that isn't healthy, and it's not inevitable, and it's not something that people who care about the format like in the slightest.

If the comments you made and the quote quoted said the same thing, then I could see the point that the quoted paragraph is shortsighted, but the two are not coterminous.

First of all, I never lauded the Flash deck as a good deck or not (in the sense of whether it is good for the metagame). I remain agnostic as to that question.

The point I made as to inevitability has nothing to do with the Flash deck and more to do with the rise of combo in the format. I mean, missing from alot of the discussion is just how good R/G Belcher has been performing. It made top 8 easily at the Neutral Ground GPT and EPIC Storm won the last Duel for Duals.

Secondly, I was raising the analytic question about how dynamic, complex systems operate. Once a system is transformed, can you reverse engineer the transformation by simply removing the catalyst? I don't know the answer to that, but I suspect the answer is no.

My honest guess is that if you ban Flash things will not return to the way they were. It won't be the same as it is now, but I don't think you can fully put the genie back into the bottle so to speak.

Of course, I could be wrong. But that's why I wrote the article: to raise these questions and bring a different perspective to the recent metagame shift, not to to claim to have all the answers.

[Peter_Rotten]

I agree to an extent. The metagame was on its way to some sort of change spurred by storm combo with turn 1 and 2 win capabilities. Dealing with a horde of 1/1s on turn 1 was becoming more and more important and likely. Also, I think that RG Belcher was on its way to being a big deck of tier one significance before Flash stole its thunder (don't make a bad storm pun).

Hmmm, I wonder if and when WotC bans Flash that RG Belcher will receive much of a similar outcry that Flash has received. Or, imagine for a second that they ban Flash and ETW.

[frogboy]

I havn't even seen a list for RG Belcher. Someone help a brotha out. (PM me or post here, whatever.)

[Sims]

I haven't read the article as I don't have Premium, but from the jist of the article that I've seen, I would have to agree with Stephen. Combo was getting reliable and good before Flash and it would have continued slowly-but-surely. Now, Flash came along as a really strong catalyst and propelled a reliable and consistant combo to the forefront. Granted we were all up in arms about the speed of the combo, but as testing has shown (for me) that the speed version just isn't reliable enough and the slower, controlling versions are the types to play or beat. It's definately pushing a metagame shift into a control vs. combo metagame and pushing aggro to adapt and turn more into aggro-control in order to survive.

Now, I'm about to play devil's advocate and would like to state early on that I don't like Flash combo and I think it is inherently too powerful for this format. But... I think it might have done us a favor. The metagame was pushing towards combo already, I think we can agree on this, but with Flash super-charging the process it is forcing a few things. Forcing the metagame to adapt, forcing us to adapt and revamp our decks and the way we view our format. It also, if the chicken little syndrome wears off, will bring in some new players whom are interested in the concept of another "Dragon-type" combo deck ala the old 1.5, but also bring people who are looking to tune their game and gun for the deck with their own deck concepts and ideas. New ideas, new people, and a breath of fresh air is probably a good thing.

On the 1st, I sincerely hope Flash DOES get banned as I do feel that the deck maybe a bit too resilient and consistant. I also must say that the timing is absolutely atrocious, but I think it probably was an oversight on Wizards part and it can't be helped. There was a limited amount of time to test, prepare, and plan and the chicken little syndrome will likely force some Legacy players to not go, but overall I think the format isn't going to just roll over and die as some people are saying.

Long story short, I feel that while the particular combination of Flash + Protean Hulk is overpowered for this format particularly in respect to what is currently on this formats Banned list, I do think that the role it provided was a good thing for the format and will breathe some new life into it... The timing, as with mosts things in life, could have been better though.

[Peter_Rotten]

I havn't even seen a list for RG Belcher. Someone help a brotha out. (PM me or post here, whatever.)

CRET Belcher (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5712)

[Zach Tartell]

Or, imagine for a second that they ban Flash and ETW.

TES could totally fit in Ignite Memories as an alternate win, though the only way to make sure the opponent would have cards in hand is to like... play a stand still, then keep up with your combo... which totally makes it necessary to run golden wish if you're goign for the SS/IM combo. Man, now I need to write up a TEW (http://www.hrwiki.org/mirror/hs_goodtimes.mp3) primer...

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I think an argument could be made for LED to be banned; it was always kind of conspicuous among the cards that be 1.5/1 seperation made legal.

I understand the point you're making about the ascension of fast combo, and I agree to an extent.

I do think this argument hinges on percentages though; what percentage of the time should a fast combo deck be beating an "aggro" deck like Goblins? How many vulnerabilities should that kind of deck have, how many options should aggro have to deal with it? And how do these pros compare to the cons you face when playing against control and aggro-control?

In terms of reversing "damage" done by Hulk-Flash, I really don't think anyone can predict right now where the dust will settle once they ban Flash/Hulk. I also doubt things will return to exactly what they were before; a lot of people will be in a position where playing aggro-control like Fish and Thresh are easiest, and a lot of people will pick up Belcher and TES. That also leaves an opening for Goblins that finds a way to deal with fast combo to come back(and Goblins actually has a number of options against both the afore-mentioned decks).

So if you mean that things won't go back to the previous concerns of A)Deal with Goblins, and B)Deal with everything else, you're probably right.

But I don't know if I would call this a good thing when you look at the cost we're paying.

[cupajoe]

I'm just a stupid scrub, but you can use big words like coterminous, or you can boil it down to two essential points

1) Flash combo wins in the very early turns without needing to use tons of mana accel...In the build posted here I counted 8 non-land mana accel.....Meanwhile CRET Belcher uses 30+ mana accelerants

2) The spots that would have been used on mana accel are instead used to counterspell any disruption the opp throws your way (FOW, Daze).....Making the Flash deck patently unfair

Here's another point....When super-fast combo exists, whether it's CRET Belcher or Flash, it really reduces the fun factor for many players....

I play because I like to PLAY....I really don't want to spend my entry fee and then lose in the first couple of minutes, most of it spent watching the dude rifle through his deck for the kill

Is it too much to ask to have the games last at least 4-5 turns? (on average...I understand a fluke turn 2 kill can and will happen)

I agree with Spatula that LED could be banned, and after all the whining at the end of the day combo would still be good, but not AS good

[hi-val]

Stephen made a good point about building decks and evaluating the strength of certain cards based on how they change the rest of the deck. There was an extended analogy we talked about involving Affinity; I am unsure of whether it made it in the final article. The gist was that running Atog over Shrapnel Blast or Somber Hoverguard, etc., changed the values of many other cards incrementally. It was a good read to see that deckbuilding and tuning is like a web that adjusts when one part of the system changes.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

I'm just a stupid scrub, but you can use big words like coterminous, or you can boil it down to two essential points

1) Flash combo wins in the very early turns without needing to use tons of mana accel...In the build posted here I counted 8 non-land mana accel.....Meanwhile CRET Belcher uses 30+ mana accelerants

2) The spots that would have been used on mana accel are instead used to counterspell any disruption the opp throws your way (FOW, Daze).....Making the Flash deck patently unfair

Here's another point....When super-fast combo exists, whether it's CRET Belcher or Flash, it really reduces the fun factor for many players....

I play because I like to PLAY....I really don't want to spend my entry fee and then lose in the first couple of minutes, most of it spent watching the dude rifle through his deck for the kill

Is it too much to ask to have the games last at least 4-5 turns? (on average...I understand a fluke turn 2 kill can and will happen)

I agree with Spatula that LED could be banned, and after all the whining at the end of the day combo would still be good, but not AS good

The thing is, LED hasn't done anything in Legacy to warrant a ban. Sure, it's obscenely good in many combo decks, however, said combo decks haven't posted enough Top 8s for the DCI to even consider looking at the bloody card.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Not yet. I do think that LED is a card that will inevitably be broken. I'm not sure it's there yet, but it's bound to happen sooner or later. It's a situational Lotus. That's pretty good as a 4x.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

I don't doubt that somewhere along the line it will be necessary to ban LED; it's just that the cards that can utterly break it haven't been printed yet. If it were possible to break LED at this point in time, It would likely already have happened.

[DeathwingZERO]

Banning LED hinges on one thing, and one thing alone: that the LED is the CRUCIAL mana accelerant of the deck, which in all cases so far, it's not.

While it IS a Lotus in the right deck, it's only so by those abusing it that way. However it's also a heavy burden, you lose to a counterspell of any kind. In reality, I'd say that Salvagers is the only thing that comes close to really abusing LED's power so far. When it becomes far too common for a deck to use them on turn 1 consistently, then we have problems, as it races all of our answers to them.

I personally think the format shift is exactly where we should be going. By degrees of power levels in each format, we're about where we should be. Vintage sees control or dominance of the situation as early as turn 1, often by turn 2. Legacy should in then be seeing an average of 2-4 turns to either win, or declare control of the game. Extended often by turn 4-5, and Standard likely by turn 6 (if not by 4-5, in some cases). The size of the card pool almost directly influences how fast the format is, and when we were separated from Vintage, they gave us our "Dragon" options back in different flavors.

I personally think Flash post-FS is going to be degenerate, regardless of if you play 8 Pact Turn Zero, or Jack Flash and "slowroll". However, we've had turn 1 possibilities with combos in most combo decks short of Solidarity. The issue is that those decks as stated, needed their spell slots for accelerants, and typically are inconsistent, or heavily reliant on not seeing disruption. Once Flash has been rooted out, we're back to that same trend.

The format MAY be much faster than it was with Gob/Thresh/Solidarity "Big 3", but in all honesty, that's where our evolution lies. We really do need a control deck in the format, and that will rise with TES, Belcher, IGGY, etc continuing to rise in numbers. I think like a lot of the other players, Flash just kinda kicked us into high gear on developing those new decks.

[Shriekmaw]

I don't doubt that somewhere along the line it will be necessary to ban LED; it's just that the cards that can utterly break it haven't been printed yet. If it were possible to break LED at this point in time, It would likely already have happened.


I think LED is kinda broken right now. Just think about the combo decks in Legacy, and with the exception of Hulk Flash and Solidarity, all the other decks run them. This is the main reason why Iggy Pop, Belcher, and TES are extremely fast. It is because how good LED is in combo decks.

I don't see them banning LED unless the format goes to mostly combo which the three main decks listed above just start dominating all the major Legacy tournaments.

The only thing I am expecting to be banned is both Hulk and Flash since Wizards usually ban multiple cards in a broken combo.

[revenge_inc]

Here's my off topic point of view:

Ban Flash for un-errataed brokeness
Ban Empty the Warrens-for semi-brokeness,
unBan Mind over Matter-doesn't matter, the card's too slow, kinda sucks
unBan Land Tax-good card, just not brokenly good

Don't touch LED it is good for non-Solidarity combo decks and not as brpken as ETW is for Belcher.

Then Legacy will be happy.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't think Empty the Warren is a problem card. Empty the Warrens makes storm combo much better by removing a weakness (having to gain full storm), but ultimately I think that's good for the format. Ultimately, that's not broken- Truffle Shuffle, in my testing, had a pretty decent CRET Belcher matchup, for instance, because on the play Deed usually shut down the ETW win. There are plenty of answers to 1/1 Tokens that don't have Haste. Even Goblins has Sharpshooter or Brightstone Ritual from the board.

LED enables a fairly easy first turn Belcher activation, which I think is a more serious problem.

[DeathwingZERO]

While the storm mechanic is pretty well established as a near broken ability, none of the "finishers" we use are broken without decks based around them, and being either faster than the hate, or more resilient.

They'll never end up on the B&R because of their specific needs, of either an opponent drawing a card, a minimum of 9 spells played + being able to target, or at least an additional 2 turns to swing into victory. Those really aren't "easy" requests, in comparison to broken combo-potential "powerhouses" like Yawgmoth's Win, Necro/Bargain, Memory Jar, and Academy, etc working with basically anything.

[cupajoe]

Why should Legacy be "slightly slower than Vintage" at turn 2-4 dominance?

Because you say so?

I see part of Legacy's attraction as being a casual players format....If you don't want to constantly keep buying cards, and worrying about what rotates in and out, play Legacy

If combo decks are consistently winning on turn 2, that will turn the casual player away in droves....People may rag on "scrubs," but the fact is, you need "scrubs" to make 10-person tourneys, 20-person tourneys, or 20-person tourneys 40 person tourneys....

Even if Flash and LED get banned, combo decks will still be very good.....Empty the Warrens helps them be less resilient to hate.....And they will get more resilient after Future Sight with the Pacts

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's in Wizards interest for the Legacy metagame to be as diverse as possible. Diversity of metagame threats means that deckbuilding and sideboard construction require more skill, and more matchups have to be playtested, which rewards greater skill and thus makes the game more interesting and fun. Further, the more diverse the decks are, the more old cards that are no longer playable elsewhere retain value, and thus the more people are encouraged to invest in the game long term. This is especially true when the valuable Legacy cards aren't the exact same as valuable Vintage cards.

But beyond that, there's no reason to neuter combo. It shouldn't be dominant, but it should be a viable option, preferably in several incarnations- the list of tiered combo decks at TES, CRET Belcher, Solidarity, Aluren and Iggy Pop before the addition of Flash, for instance, presented a powerful range of options and answers, although none were truly degenerate. Maybe Belcher.

[AnwarA101]

But beyond that, there's no reason to neuter combo. It shouldn't be dominant, but it should be a viable option, preferably in several incarnations- the list of tiered combo decks at TES, CRET Belcher, Solidarity, Aluren and Iggy Pop before the addition of Flash, for instance, presented a powerful range of options and answers, although none were truly degenerate. Maybe Belcher.

This is correct. Combo in Legacy while present has never dominated the metagame. If you combine all the different decks than perhaps they represent a large portion of the metagame, but they almost never represent a large portion of the T8. Most Legacy tournaments never have more than 1 or 2 combo decks in the T8 and almost none of them make the finals with some notable exceptions.

[Nightmare]

This is correct. Combo in Legacy while present has never dominated the metagame. If you combine all the different decks than perhaps they represent a large portion of the metagame, but they almost never represent a large portion of the T8. Most Legacy tournaments never have more than 1 or 2 combo decks in the T8 and almost none of them make the finals with some notable exceptions.This is largely due to the fact that the second most played deck in the format inherantly destroys combo decks.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

This is largely due to the fact that the second most played deck in the format inherantly destroys combo decks.

Not Hulk-Flash, though.

[Nightmare]

Not Hulk-Flash, though.Well, obviously, but that's not the combo deck we're discussing.

[Meeee]

Why should Legacy be "slightly slower than Vintage" at turn 2-4 dominance?

Because you say so?

I see part of Legacy's attraction as being a casual players format....If you don't want to constantly keep buying cards, and worrying about what rotates in and out, play Legacy

If combo decks are consistently winning on turn 2, that will turn the casual player away in droves....People may rag on "scrubs," but the fact is, you need "scrubs" to make 10-person tourneys, 20-person tourneys, or 20-person tourneys 40 person tourneys....

Even if Flash and LED get banned, combo decks will still be very good.....Empty the Warrens helps them be less resilient to hate.....And they will get more resilient after Future Sight with the Pacts

Wizards is obviously pushing Legacy to be a more competitive format otherwise it wouldn't be getting another Grand Prix. As the level of events increases so is the motivation to break or streamline the format. When there’s not much riding on the line yea, not that many people are going to try that hard to break the format then yes it would be considered a casual format. As Legacy gets more big tourneys though there is a lot more motivation to innovate the format and it will become much more competitive.

The format couldn't stay Goblins and everything else forever, rarely is an aggro deck capable of dominating a format with such a large card pool available. Although I agree that Flash is too degenerate for the format preemptively banning other combo cards just because; they could break the format soon seems very narrow minded. The card pool is quite large and supports a large number of answers to various forms of combo, even Pre-FS Flash combo is not invincible by any stretch of the imagination although it is good and very resilient.

[Machinus]

Once a system is transformed, can you reverse engineer the transformation by simply removing the catalyst?

Obviously the answer is no, for most physical systems.

But in Legacy, the answer is very close to "yes." Players build and play the best decks availabe in the card pool, and these will be the same after the tournament. They will be different because of the passage of time, and the additional development that occurs, but I fully expect to see the very same metagame back again in June.

As I have explained several times before, this is simply the continuing slow increase in popularity and strength of combo, alongside a decline in aggro and an increasing complexity of control and aggro-control.

[Lego]

Wizards is obviously pushing Legacy to be a more competitive format otherwise it wouldn't be getting another Grand Prix.

I think that's a bit of a stretch. As far as I can tell, Wizards has done next-to-nothing to show that they want Legacy to be a more competitive format. What'd we have, 00two GPs in 2005 and now one more in 2007? Seems to me that we'll continue to have one or two GPs a year at most, and that'll be that. Legacy simply isn't the money-maker for Wizards that Extended and Standard are.


Obviously the answer is no, for most physical systems.

Try not to be condescending. This answer is far from obvious to the large majority. Most people know little about physics.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I actually assume that was meant innocently. I'm not a physics expert at all, but I thought it was fairly obvious- if the Legacy metagame was a delicious stew, for instance, and Hulk-Flash was a giant heaping turd, and Mark G. in his periodic errata genocides tosses said turd into said soup, can you just fish the turd right back out and everything will be fine? Or would you be disinclined against eating further of that soup anyway?

In this case, I think exposure to fast combo is going to cause a lot more long term interest in strategies like Fish and CRET Belcher than we had seen previously, even after Flash gets the axe.

[Meeee]

I think that's a bit of a stretch. As far as I can tell, Wizards has done next-to-nothing to show that they want Legacy to be a more competitive format. What'd we have, 00two GPs in 2005 and now one more in 2007? Seems to me that we'll continue to have one or two GPs a year at most, and that'll be that. Legacy simply isn't the money-maker for Wizards that Extended and Standard are.



Try not to be condescending. This answer is far from obvious to the large majority. Most people know little about physics.

Last time I checked 1-2 GP's a year for a format is a lot more then zero GP's ever. Yes Wizard hasn't jumped in a given 4-5 big tournaments to Legacy but they are showing an increased interest in it and that is causing the format to be more competitive. For example I never play Legacy given the option, I've done well at about one Dual for Dual's in Syracuse awhile back (that I won :smile:) and other then that I usual don't care or play the format. For about the last 2 months I have been preparing for the GP by playing in tournaments and such to figure the format out and what deck I like the best. So the GP's are definitely bringing competitive people to the format, that coupled with legacy regulars honing there lists so that they will do well at the GP means the format is getting more competitive.