[Article] Unlocking Legacy - Columbus and the Format According to the “All Stars”

[AnwarA101]

This Bardo's latest article for SCG. I have to say its my favorite because I got to read the thoughts and ideas of the players I respect most (not because I'm actually in it). Good work on getting all the Flash updates included as well.

The article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14180.html)

My only complaint is that no actual list of Red Death was included. I won't take it personally. :smile:

[Bardo]

My only complaint is that no actual list of Red Death was included. I won't take it personally.

I at least linked to it in the bio I wrote for you. Don't boo-hoo-hoo me. ;)

[Tacosnape]

Somebody should interview me for one of these articles. I always have interesting things to say about given decks and the state of magic. Plus, I know easily-manipulatable women skilled in the art of oral sex.

[Citrus-God]

I thought the article was great. I also felt bad that I havent reported back to Mad Zur about the results of that Anti-Flash deck I was building.... I should do that now...

[Mad Zur]

Interesting article. Seeing decks like Faerie Stompy and Landstill alternately trashed and praised was cool.

Looking back, it's sort of embarassing how conservative I was about Flash. I had only known about the combo for about two days and hadn't even been able to goldfish it, and I figured I didn't want to overhype it if we were wrong about how good it was. And it's true; if I had been forced to choose my deck before testing Flash, I would have chosen Threshold.
I'm not sure what the best Threshold list will be for the GP, but if I had to make a decision tomorrow, I would probably take our latest list and tweak it to have answers to Flash (at the very least by including Stifle in the board).How fortunate for me that the GP was not the next day.

It's kind of amusing to see responses like this along with responses obviously written before Flash and others obviously written well after (Jack must have been pretty late).

[Bardo]

Interesting article. Seeing decks like Faerie Stompy and Landstill alternately trashed and praised was cool.

For me, that was the coolest part, not seeing where folks' agreed on obvious stuff, but where they disagreed on the fringe stuff.

re: Flash vis-a-vis the article: MF ugh.

[Eldariel]

A mammoth of an article and a good one at that. Very interesting to see what people thought on variety of decks and most importantly, on the Hulk Menace. I definitely think the UWg Gro-list I posted on the N&D forum could be a solid choice for the Hulk-meta though as it has game against hate-decks, hate-hate-decks and Hulk itself, all the while having no graveyard reliance save for Jotun Grunt (I guess it could use SB Leyline of the Voids or Trickbinds though, but the transformational SB takes most of the space).

[Citrus-God]

Looking back, it's sort of embarassing how conservative I was about Flash. I had only known about the combo for about two days and hadn't even been able to goldfish it, and I figured I didn't want to overhype it if we were wrong about how good it was. And it's true; if I had been forced to choose my deck before testing Flash, I would have chosen Threshold.How fortunate for me that the GP was not the next day.


Jack's version is really good against Threshold. Out of fear, I really didnt want to deal with Jack's deck. I know The Disciple kill is much easier on you, but Jack's build is like.... well, it's like TPS really if we reflect it to Vintage. Let's just say Threshold is some random Drain deck. TPS is really good at pressuring Stax and Drain decks, and has been very popular at doing so.

[freakish777]

This article was pretty good. Having a bunch of different perspective all focused on the same questions is neat. I particularly liked the discussions about FS and how most tend to agree on it's inconsistencies and weaknesses, but not all agreed on whether or not that meant the deck got the axe from their testing.

Seeing all the hype Flash is receiving, I have a question of my own I'd like to see answered, do you think something similar to what happened in Yokohama could happen at Columbus (with WW being the most hyped deck and as a result it actually being the wrong metagame choice, granted no WW deck on the planet can win on turn 1, 2, or 3), or is no amount of hate going to slow this deck down?

[AngryTroll]

I thought it was a great article! Yeah, as someone else pointed out, I thought the best part was seeing where people disagreed about what decks were the most and least impressive.

[Di]

Seeing all the hype Flash is receiving, I have a question of my own I'd like to see answered, do you think something similar to what happened in Yokohama could happen at Columbus (with WW being the most hyped deck and as a result it actually being the wrong metagame choice, granted no WW deck on the planet can win on turn 1, 2, or 3), or is no amount of hate going to slow this deck down?

It's very difficult to compare a slow aggro deck to a ridiculously fast, consistent and resilient combo deck. What's insane about Flash is the fact that it can adapt very well against a hate deck and win right through it. A deck like WW wasn't able to win through hate as easily. The better versions of the deck run a lot of disruption and a lot of search, so they can get through most of the hate that is out there. Or, Flash will just win before the hate even comes online.

[Aggro_zombies]

Or, Flash will just win before the hate even comes online.
I don't think that's a viable plan anymore. Having done a considerable amount of goldfishing with a build designed to go off as soon as possible, I can say that the deck does not go off turn one or turn zero more than a third of the time. Every turn you wait after turn zero/one only increases your chance of losing to hate. If there's a build of the deck that can go off turn one more than half the time, I'd like to see it.

I will say, however, that I am trying to combine some of the fast Flash's tutor spells with the slower Flash's control, so far with mixed success.

@the article: Very good. I wonder who sent their responses in after Flash was changed...:confused:

[Nightmare]

I finished my response over a month ago, then had to rewrite part of it post-flash. Which sucked.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's kind of amusing to see responses like this along with responses obviously written before Flash and others obviously written well after (Jack must have been pretty late).


A wizard is never late.

I have to say, this was a cool way to do an article. And I'm not just saying that because I was in it. Although that's a contributing factor.

That reminds me, I still owe MZ and Mr. Nipples an epic playtesting report.

[herbig]

Could someone c/p and email the article to me? mikeherbigATgmailDOTcom - I'm having trouble bringing up the site. Maybe its down for everyone...

Edit: nevermind

[C.P.]

One of the best articles that I have ever seen in SCG.

I like how I get to know the thoughts of the best players in the format. Nice Article.

[AnwarA101]

I at least linked to it in the bio I wrote for you. Don't boo-hoo-hoo me. ;)

Oh I totally missed that. I saw that you linked Machinus' article, but I didn't remember that Machinus had a full decklist in his article (I didn't click the link). I retract my objection.

As for Hulk Flash, I have to agree with Mad Zur, my responses only include my initial thoughts on the deck. If anyone is wondering, I don't believe that Red Death is viable and only with heavy modificiation can it work against Hulk Flash. My recent testing of a few days ago shows that Red Death just gets steamrolled in the matchup. It pains me to think that I won't play Red Death, but I'm not sure I can bring myself to heavily alter the deck just so it can compete with Flash. Those changes are bound to make it worse against the rest of the field especially non-combo decks. I guess it will be GP Flash ?

[Di]

It pains me to think that I won't play Red Death, but I'm not sure I can bring myself to heavily alter the deck just so it can compete with Flash. Those changes are bound to make it worse against the rest of the field especially non-combo decks. I guess it will be GP Flash ?

Do you expect me to play EATS!? That's what I thought. Breaks my heart.

It will be GP: Flash, because there are currently < 5 viable decks in the format.

[Deep6er]

This article had an adequate amount of David Gearhart. However, my responses were pre-Flash. I've been so busy (in no small part thanks to Flash) that I didn't get a chance to reflect on exactly how Flash affected me. Fortunately, my responses were vague and generalized enough that nobody should care. Honestly, without the humorous intro, my part is the easiest to forget. Stupid format. God, I hate Flash. Anyway, interesting article although, I would recommend continuing in a vein of questioning as opposed to generalized questions. That way, there's a more in depth feel and the interviewees can connect with the audience more. Also, there would be more me that way. I like me. :)

[Ewokslayer]

I like me. :)

You are the only one.

Whoa! Burn!

On Topic

I liked the article, It was amusing to see who responded early (Pre Flash) and who didn't (Post Flash).

[Bardo]

I liked the article, It was amusing to see who responded early (Pre Flash) and who didn't (Post Flash).

To be fair, I gave everyone their answers back regardless of when I first received them (pre/post-HF), either in their entirety, or in a few cases, just select answers which were out of date by the beginning of May.

Anyway, I'm happy people liked it, this one wasn't easy to pull off.

[Hanni]

I thought the article was extremely good, Bardo. Every article of yours that I've read thus far has delivered and this one was no exception. I wish I would have gotten interviewed though :frown: lol

[dre4m]

I thought the article was extremely good, Bardo. Every article of yours that I've read thus far has delivered and this one was no exception. I wish I would have gotten interviewed though :frown: lol

At least you were mentioned and you have your name attatched to your deck!

Good article, I enjoyed it, and I enjoyed the notable lack of opinionation about Flash and its health for the format. It makes the article much more enjoyable.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

That was a really great article. Good job.

[Hanni]

At least you were mentioned and you have your name attatched to your deck!

Oh I know, I just wanted to give Bardo a hard time. It still would have been cool to have been interviewed though.

[Bardo]

Oh I know, I just wanted to give Bardo a hard time. It still would have been cool to have been interviewed though.

I used Mr. Nightmare's Top 10 winners from the past all-star thread. It's buried somewhere in this here forum. I originally linked to the thread in an earlier draft of the article, but realized there were too many "fucks" in it for a "family-friendly" site. Nice going, Gearhart! ;)

Long story short, better luck next year, Hanni.

Also note that the article was originally going to be called "Halfway to a Threeway" where I interspersed Jim O'Rourke sublime folk song of that title through the article. Don't give him any shit about it, but Craig edited it all out since he thought it was a tad too risque.

I left out the most lurid parts, but quoted the first two verses:

"Halfway to a Threeway"
by Jim O'Rourke

I used to have none
Now with you, I’ve got one
If I could get just one more
Then you know what you’re in for

You ain’t getting any sleep tonight
I hope that you girls don’t fight
And I hope that you won’t run away
’Cause I’m halfway to a threeway

[snip]

I’ll make it sweet but short
When I pull out your life support
And I know that you’ll just fade away
Now I’m halfway to a threeway
And I know that you’ll just fade away
Now I’m halfway to a threeway

--

In retrospect, I have no idea what I was thinking, but the idea of including parts made me laugh out loud when the thought occured to me, whilst walking my dogs one night.

The reference was that the power of Hulk Flash implies that Legacy could be a threeway metagame with Flash, decks that hate flash and the decks that hate the decks that hate Flash, as IBA mentioned in his part.

Anyway, I find the phrase "halfway to a threeway" fucking hysterical. :)

[Nightmare]

Anyway, I find the phrase "halfway to a threeway" fucking hysterical. :)It reminds me of a particular Christmas party in college, and my friend's girlfriend...

[chmoddity]

I liked your perspective, Bardo. It's always more informative to see what a lot of others have to say than just the author.

[Nihil Credo]

Pretty strong article. It's actually a good thing that many of the answers were written either pre-Flash or in the "skeptic" early days of the combo: this means they're still going to be good past June 1st.

[Happy Gilmore]

I appriciated both the attention to Hulk Flash and the format overall. The whole article had a clear direction and finished well. Possibly the best article I have read about legacy in a long time. Great idea Bardo.

[Nightmare]

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4763

Thread Bardo chose interviewees from.

[Bardo]

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4763

Thread Bardo chose interviewees from.

Yep, thanks for dredging that up.

[Zilla]

Plus, I know easily-manipulatable women skilled in the art of oral sex.
What would your mom say if she heard you talking about her like that?

[Nightmare]

What would your mom say if she heard you talking about her like that?MMmmpphh mmpphpmm mmpphhnmm.

[Smmenen]

Here is my response from the SCG forums:

I honestly thought this article was disappointing. While painstakingly researched and put together, the article really didn’t offer very much useful technology or insight. Too many of the so-called legacy “elite” came off as whining about Flash rather than offering anything constructive. The decklists they did share were just unimpressive. I mean, no one is going to play Wildfire whatever nor does Solidarity look even remotely appealing with everyone playing Stifles, Duress, Mage, Red Blasts, etc, etc.

The discussion on Flash was either technology that people are already aware of (Jack Flash) or just complaining about it mixed with comments that the people you had interviewed hadn’t really hadn’t testing it enough (for example, the comment that someone made about not being able to learn a new format in two weeks). They could have at least provided some actual analysis.

I understand the desire to keep technology secret, but they should just say that. For one final article before the Grand Prix this was pretty disappointing. And after the Grand Prix, only a fraction of the audience that clicked your article today will actually care.

[Belgareth]

Flash will go away post June 1st, so the article was very relevant as the hate will drop off as goblins re-emerges.
I thought it was an excellent article as usual Dan, and given the difficulty of pulling together answers from all over states (though I would have like to have seen Euro perspective too), I think it was done very well.
Sorry you were disappointed Stephen (though that's generally how I feel after reading your articles and realising that people are charged for them).
It was clearly started a long time before flash came about and even though bardo returned peoples answers for editing , a lot of people were probably too busy testing or with real life to edit.
I don't want to start the whole teams keep stuff secret debate here, but yes of course people won't publish any secret tech this close to GP .
It would be silly to release that kind of information so some T2 player with 3 byes can netdeck his way to day 2.

I have already thanked bardo , but thanks to the chosen 10 too, it made a very interesting read on way to work.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Here is my response from the SCG forums:

I honestly thought this article was disappointing. While painstakingly researched and put together, the article really didn’t offer very much useful technology or insight. Too many of the so-called legacy “elite” came off as whining about Flash rather than offering anything constructive. The decklists they did share were just unimpressive. I mean, no one is going to play Wildfire whatever nor does Solidarity look even remotely appealing with everyone playing Stifles, Duress, Mage, Red Blasts, etc, etc.

The discussion on Flash was either technology that people are already aware of (Jack Flash) or just complaining about it mixed with comments that the people you had interviewed hadn’t really hadn’t testing it enough (for example, the comment that someone made about not being able to learn a new format in two weeks). They could have at least provided some actual analysis.

I understand the desire to keep technology secret, but they should just say that. For one final article before the Grand Prix this was pretty disappointing. And after the Grand Prix, only a fraction of the audience that clicked your article today will actually care.

Keep in mind the disparate dates of the answers. I think mine was near the last, and that was sent off two weeks ago. Maybe if the article had been published sooner it would seem more relevant.



Sorry you were disappointed Stephen (though that's generally how I feel after reading your articles and realising that people are charged for them).

If you truly feel so, say it in a thread discussing one of his articles. Bringing it up here is an ad hominem tu quoque; simply because you feel he writes bad articles, does not necessarily mean that his criticism of this article is irrelevant. It either is or is not a fair complaint on it's own merits.

[Machinus]

I honestly thought this article was disappointing. While painstakingly researched and put together, the article really didn’t offer very much useful technology or insight. Too many of the so-called legacy “elite” came off as whining about Flash rather than offering anything constructive. The decklists they did share were just unimpressive. I mean, no one is going to play Wildfire whatever nor does Solidarity look even remotely appealing with everyone playing Stifles, Duress, Mage, Red Blasts, etc, etc.

First of all, there were ten people contributing to this article in their free time, who received these questions about six weeks ago. I am sure it was difficult to get timely responses. Additionaly, there was barely enough time to even put together a solid list and test it before this article came out. Some people posted their lists even after doing all that work. Complaining because you didn't get enough good tech is terribly inconsiderate.

Second, the format WILL be returning next month, and at that time the players work will be relevant once again. Don't enjoy Combo Spring too much. The e-barn ecosystem isn't going to hang around when the format is good again.

Finally, there was no "whining" in this article. Flash is a problem, but it seems that only people who actually play this format can recognize that. Everyone claiming that it's positive and constructive has betrayed the community and is exploiting the hype for their own personal gain. It may seem safe to act like that because the DCI is reluctant to admit that they make mistakes, but next month you are all going to seem short-sighted and foolish.

[Bardo]

I would kindly request that people be cool and not say things that are going to get this thread locked. Grazi.

[Phantom]

I would kindly request that people be cool and not say things that are going to get this thread locked. Grazi.

Agreed.

I liked the article a lot, even if it was my idea (Bardo "claims" that he was already working on this when I unveiled my great idea, but whatever. lol).

I would like to see this become a semi regular thing. Maybe monthly or bimonthly players could answer 10 burning questions on Legacy. I think more specific questions with shorter answers might be in order, as this is kind of a clunky forum to debut and dissect lists. Something like this:

1) Do you think Goblins will be the best deck in the format a year from now?
2) What is the best combo deck in the format?
3) What is the most underplayed card in the format, or what card is waiting for the right deck to abuse it?
4) What currently tier 2 deck do you think has the potential to jump into Tier one, if any?
5) What is the best splash for Goblins and why?
6) What is the future of contol in Legacy?
7) How can decks fight the rise of TES and Belcher?
8) What are your thoughts on the European metagame?
9) What is your favorite card of all time and why?
10) Will White Weenie ever have any presence in Legacy?

Hell, you could even have a thread where people suggested questions they wanted asked, and you could simply select the 10 best each month. Also, with unrelated questions such as this, you could post the question, followed by all ten answers so we could more easily compare and contrast answers.

I have no idea if this is possible or anyone else likes the idea, but I thought I would throw it out there while I should be studying for finals.

[Nightmare]

Steve, Just to drive the point home, Dan sent me the questions six weeks ago, and I completed my part while bored at work the next day. This was not only before flash hit the scene, it was before the errata. A week ago he asked me to rewrite two of the answers to be more timely. In doing so, I had to try and rework the answers to fit into the previous replies. It wasn't easy. Before Flash, Chalice looked much better. Landstill looked much better (still looks good). I think this would probably have been one of the best articles on the format to date, had the GP gone off without Flash. As it stands, it's exactly as disjointed as the format itself is right now.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I don't think there's anything "whiny" about it. I'm not even sure what "whiny" means anymore, it gets thrown around so casually.

I thought it was interesting to see multiple succinct takes on the format and various decks. The points where they intersect and the points where they disagree give the reader a lot to think about without attempting to force an unwarranted and pretentious conclusion, like so many writers end up doing.

Great, great read.