[Day 2 Updates] GP Columbus!

[Peter_Rotten]

First, the link to WotC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gpcol07/welcome#1)'s update page.

Second, our our Day 1 Information (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5820).

Third, let's cheer for our Day 2 people.

In for Day 2
24 points
Dominic Lodovichetti (Happy Gilmore of CruBible-Typo-Fame) - 10th
Adrian Sullivan - 15th
Zohar Bahgat (power gamer) - 19th

22 Points
Alix Hatfield (ObFreely)- 32nd place

21 points
Eisel, Nick - 37th place
"Friendly" Phil Stolze - 48th place
Hammer, James (Pinder - damn you Artichoke Thread, damn you!) - 64th
IBA - 69th (figures, huh?)

20 points
Kaddy!!!!! - 80th
Diefendorf - 81st

19 points
Rusiecki, Jonathan (Mr. Nipples) - 93rd
Smenny - 102nd

Lastly, links to other forums to check for more updates:

SCG's thread (http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=301415)
TML's thread (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33207.msg473556#new)
WotC thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=849800)

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Updates on Round 10 are up.

So:

Happy drew
Adrian lost
Zohar drew
ObFreely lost
Nick won
Phil lost
Pinder lost
Jack won
Kaddy lost
The Dief won
Mr Nipples won
Smennen lost

[Peter_Rotten]

Round 10 standings

25 points
Dominic Lodovichetti (Happy Gilmore of CruBible-Typo-Fame) - 13th
Zohar Bahgat (power gamer) - 20th

24 points
Adrian Sullivan - 31st
Eisel, Nick - 24th place
IBA - 45th

23 points
Diefendorf - 51st

22 Points
Rusiecki, Jonathan (Mr. Nipples) - 58th
Alix Hatfield (ObFreely)- 70th place

21 points
"Friendly" Phil Stolze - 86th place
Hammer, James (Pinder - damn you Artichoke Thread, damn you!) - 95th

20 points
Kaddy!!!!! - 106th

19 points
Smenny - 117th

[kabal]

The Professor's Field Journal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gpcol07/pblog1)

"Experience the intense excitement of Professional Magic from the perspective of accomplished pro player Craig Jones as he plays and writes his way to the Top 8."

Maybe this has been there for awhile, but I just noticed it.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I think they put it up this morning. It was interesting. I think that playing Hulk-into-Conversional SB seems more solid than the reverse. But apparently Kaddy is playing the same general idea.

There were a couple Marylanders I think made day 2 and have S/Ns on the Source, but damned if I remember what they are, or their last names.

[laststepdown]

Major grats to Tim Galbiati, Richard Feldman, and Robert Vroman, all traveling from St. Lou to make d2!

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Dom(Happy) 9-1-1 Hulk
Zohar 8-2-1 U/B Landstill
Alix(ObFreely) 8-2-1 Hulk
Jon(Mr. Nipples) 8-2-1 Hulk
Jack(IBA) 8-3 Hulk

[kabal]

Dom(Happy) 9-1-1 Hulk
Zohar 8-2-1 U/B Landstill
Alix(ObFreely) 8-2-1 Hulk
Jon(Mr. Nipples) 8-2-1 Hulk
Jack(IBA) 8-3 Hulk

Are they all playing "Jack Flash" or what?

[Phantom]

Do they cut to T8 at the end? What will their record have to be (approximately)?

[etrigan]

From the main coverage page:


Hulk Flash was on everyone's minds coming into the tournament and the deck has proved to be quite formidable - especially when you put it in the hands of one the best players in the game - but it only took one of the top 4 places. Paul Cheon and Richard Feldman shared slightly dented 8-0-1 records in the next two spots. Cheon was piloting Bigger Fish, a deck designed to beat both Flash and the Fish decks that were supposed to beat Flash while Rochard Feldman was playing something completely from left field - a green black deck filled with such cards as Masticore, Deranged Hermit, and Skyshroud Poacher.

Definitely Trinity Green.

[kabal]

Round 11 Standing are up, but Wizards has linked to the wrong location so click here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gpcol07/stand11) instead or just change "gpstra07" in the url to "gpcol07"

[CleverPetriDish]

What is the minimum expected numer of points for t8?

And what is the thought behind ID-ing so early? It seems foolish.

[Peter_Rotten]

Round 11 standings

28 points
Dominic Lodovichetti (Happy Gilmore of CruBible-Typo-Fame) - 8th

25 points
Zohar Bahgat (power gamer) - 33rd
Rusiecki, Jonathan (Mr. Nipples) - 38th
Alix Hatfield (ObFreely)- 47th place

24 points
Eisel, Nick - 54th place
Adrian Sullivan - 56th
IBA - 67th
Diefendorf - 69th

23 points

22 Points
Smenny - 89th

21 points
"Friendly" Phil Stolze - 107th place
Hammer, James (Pinder - damn you Artichoke Thread, damn you!) - 110th

20 points
Kaddy!!!!! - 118th

[xsockmonkeyx]

Round 11

Pinder- Lost
IBA-Lost
HappyG-Win :)
Ewok-draw
Nipples-Win :)
Gekortel-Win :)
Stolze-Lost
Kadi-Lost
ObFree- Win :)

[Nihil Credo]

Whoa... Owen Turtenwald's Goblin deck, which went undefeated on Day One, is a pure pre-Flash list... I guess he dodged the combo on Saturday, but it's no wonder he lost to Szleifer, and I predict he's so not making T8.

[Bardo]

After the 11th round, Ben Tash ("Tash" on TMD), inventor of Golden Grahams, is in 34th place with 25 points. I'm pretty sure he's playing Thresh.

[FoolofaTook]

Flash-Hulk seems to be holding up pretty well so far. Szleifer's deck is really nasty in game 2 unless you're anticipating the Phyrexian Negators somehow. Duress and then a negotiator is a win against somebody who SB'd for Flash-Hulk.

[FoolofaTook]

Flash-Hulk seems to be holding up pretty well so far. Szleifer's deck is really nasty in game 2 unless you're anticipating the Phyrexian Negators somehow. Duress and then a negotiator is a win against somebody who SB'd for Flash-Hulk.

Oops, that would be Negators obviously. :) Been a decade since I played tournament Magic, 1996 to be precise. Catching up on the cards the last few weeks has been like a crash course in trivia. I'd have gone to Columbus but I knew I wasn't going to compete well with so many unknowns and Flash-Hulk in the mix also.

Back to the topic at hand: the Flash decks seem to be upholding the pre-tournament hype. As of round 11 3 of the top 4 and 4 of 6 were Flash. That's just gathered from the blogs of individual matches so far.

[Peter_Rotten]

Back to the topic at hand: the Flash decks seem to be upholding the pre-tournament hype. As of round 11 3 of the top 4 and 4 of 6 were Flash. That's just gathered from the blogs of individual matches so far.

Are you only referring to the blogs found on WotC page, or are there other ones located elsewhere?

[Peter_Rotten]

Round 12 standings

28 points
Dominic Lodovichetti (Happy Gilmore of CruBible-Typo-Fame) - 19th
Rusiecki, Jonathan (Mr. Nipples) - 20th
Alix Hatfield (ObFreely)- 28th place

27 points
Adrian Sullivan - 37th

25 points
Zohar Bahgat (power gamer) - 58th
Smenny - 67th

24 points
Eisel, Nick - 78th place
IBA - 87th
Diefendorf - 89th

23 points
"Friendly" Phil Stolze - 83rd place
Kaddy!!!!! - 99th

22 Points

21 points
Hammer, James (Pinder - damn you Artichoke Thread, damn you!) - 118th

[264505]

Feldman's Trinity Green list was just posted, looks pretty good, maindeck leylines, duress, chalice and mesmeric fiend to stop flash. He said its good against fish as well, but scoops to goblins.

[Peter_Rotten]

Yeah, that deck looks pretty silly. And maybe a great meta-call as long as it can avoid Goblins.

[kabal]

Check out TrinityRock...

Richard Feldman
Main Deck

4 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Pendelhaven
2 Overgrown Tomb

4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Masticore
4 Skyshroud Poacher
3 Deranged Hermit
4 Llanowar Elves
2 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Elves of Deep Shadow

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Duress
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Board
4 Engineered Plague
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Elf Replica
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Pernicious Deed

[264505]

With all the fish, thresh, and flash going around after the GPT in Rockville, maybe I should pick this thing up.

[Tacosnape]

With only 3 rounds left, do the 24 and 25 point players even have any sort of chance to break into the top 8? Or is it all kind of a race of the 27 and highers at this point?

Also, for what it's worth, some people I know and I all picked people to win before the tournament. I picked Alix Hatfield to win the tournament. Good to see he's still in the running.

[Peter_Rotten]

With only 3 rounds left, do the 24 and 25 point players even have any sort of chance to break into the top 8? Or is it all kind of a race of the 27 and highers at this point?

That type of simple math is beyond my limited mathematical capabilities. I simply think it's fun and interesting to keep track of the names I recognize.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Also, for what it's worth, some people I know and I all picked people to win before the tournament. I picked Alix Hatfield to win the tournament. Good to see he's still in the running.


My money was on Mr.Nipples. He's doing fantastic but the numbers look like they might be too much to overcome.

[TheMightyQuinn]

I'm still in the dark as far as what some people are playing. Vroman is someone I'm curious about, amoung others. Could someone direct me to where I could see what everyone is running?

Also, is anyone else curious about the Mono-black control deck from day 1? I want to see that list.

[Phantom]

What is the prize structure at a GP? What about people out of the T8?

@ Quinn: Link on the first page to WotC coverage is where most of the info is coming from.

[Atwa]

Could someone direct me to where I could see what everyone is running?

I would. Al least if there was a list like that.

[TheMightyQuinn]

I would. Al least if there was a list like that.

Yeah, my bad. I was thinking along the lines of a "word of mouth" list someone put together as opposed to something official. Stop listening to me, I'm an idiot.

[kabal]

I'm still in the dark as far as what some people are playing. Vroman is someone I'm curious about, amoung others.

Vroman's name to fame... STAX: The Four Thousand Dollar Solution (http://mtgsalvation.com/163-stax-the-four-thousand-dollar-solution.html)

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Jack:

9-5
Mr.Niples 9-4-1

Top tables are about 50-50 between Hulk and various aggro-control, slightly favoring aggro-control. A couple randoms(I guess a Goblins and that Trinity guy).

Alix and Dominic are still in contention I think. They're both running Jack-Flash like builds with Kiki, but no Unmask and with Lotus Petal.

[TheMightyQuinn]

Vroman's name to fame... STAX: The Four Thousand Dollar Solution (http://mtgsalvation.com/163-stax-the-four-thousand-dollar-solution.html)

I know he plays Stax in Vintage. Does he play a Stax varient in Legacy too?

[Peter_Rotten]

Top tables are about 50-50 between Hulk and various aggro-control, slightly favoring aggro-control.

Does this worry you a bit? What if the Fish/Aggro-Control decks all top 8, knocking out Flash? Does this still make a strong case for Flash's banning?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Does this worry you a bit? What if the Fish/Aggro-Control decks all top 8, knocking out Flash? Does this still make a strong case for Flash's banning?

I can't see Gadiel being knocked out. I'm pretty sure 28-32 FoWs in the t8 will convince Wizards that something is rotten in the state of Legacy, even if there are those who would like to pretend that's ok.

[264505]

I think if no goblin decks manage to top 8 you could make a case for it, seeing as how goblins was one of the more dominant decks in recent years and was completely pushed out of the format (I think there is only 1 maybe 2 at the top tables)

[Jiaozy]

Does this worry you a bit? What if the Fish/Aggro-Control decks all top 8, knocking out Flash? Does this still make a strong case for Flash's banning?
I think so if the top spots are either taken from Flash decks or Anti-Flash decks..

[etrigan]

Any word on the split between Kiki-Jiki and Disciple versions of Flash?

Kabal, is that confirmed? I seem to remember Vroman posting on TML with a black Stax list, and he didn't seem that fond of it.

[Phantom]

Does this worry you a bit? What if the Fish/Aggro-Control decks all top 8, knocking out Flash? Does this still make a strong case for Flash's banning?

It does worry me a bit since we're all coming into this with a bias. A top 8 of Fish and Thresh with maybe a random can be spun for or against Flash.

However, I think that Flash is so strong that at least a few of the builds will fight through the hate and T8. Or at least I hope.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Also, maybe it's a short-coming in the report, but it appears that Gadiel scooped G2 to Turtenwald because he couldn't combo that turn, but I was under the impression that the Hulk-Kiki player could simply combo off next turn; otherwise it'd be pretty pointless run Safekeeper in the first place.

[Anusien]

Also, maybe it's a short-coming in the report, but it appears that Gadiel scooped G2 to Turtenwald because he couldn't combo that turn, but I was under the impression that the Hulk-Kiki player could simply combo off next turn; otherwise it'd be pretty pointless run Safekeeper in the first place.
Sounds fair. It's possible he had more removal; this is indicated by the "No lands" phrase. If they guy matched him on removal, it could be game over.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I'm assuming it has to be he had more removal, but then, he Matroned for Incinerator, so maybe not? I'd have to know the details, but it makes it appear as though he scooped for no reason.

Moot point, as he won game 3, but still.

[FoolofaTook]

Does this worry you a bit? What if the Fish/Aggro-Control decks all top 8, knocking out Flash? Does this still make a strong case for Flash's banning?

It could be like the situation in the year before Balance was restricted in the pre-type II days. This tournament turns into proof-of-concept for Flash-Hulk and then even many of the players who top 32'd without Flash start setting up their own variants of the deck until somebody comes up with the killer deck.

There aren't very many Legacy events that draw any attention so there'd be a lot of room for brushfires to spring up in local metas and draw attention to Flash-Hulk that way.

It's a two card combo that theoretically can win turn 0. That has to be broken, it's just a question of finding out how to break it.

Also, WotC then would have to be very careful about printing creatures with "goes to graveyard" type effects because any mistake could cause major damage to the meta.

Flash has to get banned, it just may take a bit longer than we'd all like.

BTW, looking back at round 11 I realized I was wrong. It was 2 of top 4 and 3 of 6 playing Flash-Hulk. Cheon is playing Fish.

[Peter_Rotten]

If you are interested, Forsythe responded (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=849800) to the petty bitchery about the event coverage typos.

[Anusien]

T8 and final standings are up. Two Goblins in the T16.

[Slay]

Top 8 is up:

1 Gadiel Szleifer
8 Max Tietze

4 Owen Turtenwald
5 Paul Nicolo

2 Bill Stark
7 Michael Belfatto

3 Steven Sadin
6 Ryan Trepanier

Anyone know what the decks matchup are? Szleifer is playing Flash, Turtenwald has Gobs, what are everyone else playing?

[Smmenen]

Paul Nicolo is playing Threshold type deck with red.

[Peter_Rotten]

Dominic made top 16!

[etrigan]

Notables:

16 Lodovichetti, Dominic f *

21 Menendian, Stephen M *

24 da Rosa, Paulo Vitor D

40 DeGraff, Ian S *

42 Feldman, Richard

43 Bhagat, Zohar N *

52 Hatfield, Alix *

59 Eisel, Nick J

63 Stolze, Philip

68 Diefendorf, Brian

69 Elgin, Jack

74 Kadilak, Matt J *

76 Rusiecki, Jonathan

78 Tash, Ben E *

109 Vroman, Robert *

122 Hammer, James *

[Anusien]

Steve Sadin is playing Kiki-Jiki Flash with Counterbalance, Top and Dark Confidant.
Nicolo is UGR Threshold.
Bill Stark is MBA.
Mike Belfatto is BW Aggro.
Gadiel Szleifer is Kiki-Jiki Flash.
Owen Turtenwald is Vial Goblins.
Ryan Trepanier is Vial Goblins.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Dominic made top 16!

:big smiley face:

Great job HappyG!!! You made us all proud.

[264505]

Bill Stark made the top 8 with MB sui apparently, interesting choices but definitly good ones like unmask main and order of ebon hand to block grunts and such

[technogeek5000]

Steve Sadin is playing Kiki-Jiki Flash with Counterbalance, Top and Dark Confidant.
Nicolo is UGR Threshold.
Bill Stark is MBA.
Mike Belfatto is BW Aggro.
Gadiel Szleifer is Kiki-Jiki Flash.
Owen Turtenwald is Vial Goblins.
Ryan Trepanier is Vial Goblins.

Oh god sui... YES!!!!!!!!! God i hope he wins... anymore updates... it seems like Bw aggro would be a good matchup. To bad the 2 sui decks had to play each other round 1 of top 8

[Peter_Rotten]

SO...

2 Flash
2 Goblins
2 Sui
1 Thresh
1 ?

Sure wish they would post the decks and the deck lists already :frown:

[Arrowni]

Two suckass flash in the top 8, two goblins which is nice since its the format´s staple. No Fish? Kind of saw it coming, its to fragile against non-flash decks, this is still a power format.

Stark's list is kind of basic, no Withered Wretch.

[Peter_Rotten]

No Fish?

Yeah, I guess that the deck designed to beat Flash didn't make it to T8. But we are currently missing one T8 deck. It could be Fish.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Two suckass flash in the top 8

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Because T8 out of 900 players really sucks.

[Kronicler]

Fortunately and unfortunately, that is a very diverse top 8. 2 Flash, 2 Gobos, 2 Thresh, and 2 black based aggro. I'm happy that flash didn't eliminate all aggro decks from the format, but with this top 8 it is going to be much harder to prove that flash needs to be banned, which, in spite of this top 8, I believe it does.

Kronicler

EDIT: Oops, misread one of the posts above me. Only 1 threshold, but my point still stands.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

This is an ugly Top 8. With only two Flash decks, and seemingly no anti-flash decks, it seems that Legacy's end might be nigh. Or, seeing how there are two Goblin decks in the Top 8, they might ban Lackey, which means I'll quit Legacy regardless of Flash's banning or lack of.

>_<

[Arrowni]

If those Goblins are packing maindeck leylines hate they have a good chance at winning the whole thing. Unless the mystery deck is control we continue to show that archtype is not present in the top tiers -flash had a lot to do with that.

Common sense have to work for wizards, they are facing a combo deck that its stronger than many banned cards in the format and the tier one deck may be packing a black hate card just to defend itself. We should at least get unbannings with Flash running rampart.

[Phantom]

Well, it still seems to be Flash, decks that beat Flash (Sui and Thresh), and decks that beat decks that beat Flash (Goblins).

[technogeek5000]

Stark won, stark won... it said on the coverage at wizards. 2-0

[xsockmonkeyx]

MonoBlackAggro
Bill Stark
Grand Prix Columbus
Main Deck
16 Swamp
4 Wasteland


4 Carnophage
4 Order of the Ebon Hand
4 Stromgald Crusader
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Sarcomancy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Unmask
4 Duress
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Dark Ritual

SB
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Serum Powder
4 Engineered Plague

[Arrowni]

I'm still thorned by the lack of wretch. The ironic thing is that this may be the best no-flash thing to square off against goblins in the top 8.

[technogeek5000]

Bill we shall be chearing for you (at least i will :wink: )

Lol serum powder with leyline is tech... his deck is great for flash.

[Peter_Rotten]

MonoBlackAggro
SB
4 Serum Powder

Perplexing? Or super techy for finding the Leylines?

[xsockmonkeyx]

Perplexing? Or super techy for finding the Leylines?

Gives pause nonetheless.

I used to run that same deck almost card for card (no serum powders obviously) and it did nothing but suck for me. :/

[technogeek5000]

Gives pause nonetheless.

I used to run that same deck almost card for card (no serum powders obviously) and it did nothing but suck for me. :/

Well the meta was different... this deck trumps flash and the decks that beat flash.

[Arrowni]

I think that the powders are interesting in his deck because nothing is quintessential, the Shades are the strongest cards and then the Hymns would be it. In such a plain looking deck you have the advantage of running no bombs, hence, you sacrifice no bombs in an average powdered hand.

[MattH]

I think that the powders are interesting in his deck because nothing is quintessential, the Shades are the strongest cards and then the Hymns would be it. In such a plain looking deck you have the advantage of running no bombs, hence, you sacrifice no bombs in an average powdered hand.

I think you mean "essential."

The pump knights fucking blow my mind, though that deck DOES have one of my favorite plays from a BG deck I used to play - turn 2 Ritual, Jitte, equip. Very few people ever expect that.

[Cerryl]

Perplexing? Or super techy for finding the Leylines?

I suspect they are techy for finding Plagues against Goblins as well.

[Arrowni]

I think you mean "essential."

The pump knights fucking blow my mind, though that deck DOES have one of my favorite plays from a BG deck I used to play - turn 2 Ritual, Jitte, equip. Very few people ever expect that.

Yeah, thats a very good play. I'll consider next time I'm playing some black deck -finally I get why so many one drops.

[Arrowni]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Because T8 out of 900 players really sucks.

Thats the version of the deck, there is the disciple build, the cephalid build, the sliver build and the more dominant suckass build.

[Lesurgo]

Hello everybody,

While I do not really play much Legacy (besides keeping up to date on decks, my sole tournament experience with Legacy consists of a GPT last year), I figured you guys would be clamoring for decklists. Paul Nicolo who is in the top eight is someone I work with on an internet based team and I have his decklist. (or something close to it). He won a last minute GPT with it, so I am guessing that it hasn't changed much. (Although he did leave his message by saying that he was going to add in two more Tormod's Crypts to the sideboard)

4 nimble mongoose
4 werebear
4 quirion dryad

4 brainstorm
4 mental note
4 serum visions
4 force of will
4 stifle
3 daze
4 lightning bolt
3 fire/ice
1 pithing needle

4 wooded foothills
3 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
3 tropical island
3 volcanic island
1 forest
1 island

sideboard:
3 spell snare
4 pyroclasm
2 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
2 blue elemental blast
2 krosan grip
1 pithing needle

Enjoy.

On a side note, does anyone know if he won the quarters? The coverage is slow. And, if not, do you know what the matchup is like? It looks pretty close to me, although the sideboarded blasts and Pyroclasm's probably help a lot.

[Antknee42]

My friend Adam finished in 9th place on tiebreaks with Fish. Only 37+ pointer not to make it :(

-AA

[diopter]

Well, it still seems to be Flash, decks that beat Flash (Sui and Thresh), and decks that beat decks that beat Flash (Goblins).

Whereas before it was Goblins, decks that beat Goblins (combo and co.) and decks that beat decks that beat Goblins (Thresh and co.) and people were fine with that.

---

When are they starting the top 8 matches?

[Anusien]

When are they starting the top 8 matches?
I'm guessing an hour and a half ago, when round 15 started; there might have been a break though.

[Arrowni]

Not to be a jackass but there are only three kind of decks: Those that you beat, those that beat you and those who split with you; so the statement is kind of void.

In the other hand, remember the Madness deck that won at Worlds? It has not a drop of anti-Goblin tech, feel free to compare with the current meta.

Good to know at least one Fish was fighting for a seat, they will be remembered.

[Phantom]

Whereas before it was Goblins, decks that beat Goblins (combo and co.) and decks that beat decks that beat Goblins (Thresh and co.) and people were fine with that.


I agree that it's not a complete mess of a T8, but at least before the combo decks had variety and other aggro decks exerted some presence. And contol was something at least. Now it appears there is one combo deck, one aggro deck, and a few Ag-Con decks competing.

I'm not sure if that's true, but it seems that way.

Also, more numbers would help. T32 decks for example.

[Anusien]

[18:41] <RuneH> Sadin vs Turtenwald in the finals
[18:42] <RuneH> not done yet

[Peter_Rotten]

[18:41] <RuneH> Sadin vs Turtenwald in the finals
[18:42] <RuneH> not done yet

Thanks... what decks are they playing?

edit: I turned lazy mode off and found out for myself:

Kiki Flash vs. Goblins

[Belgareth]

Vial Goblins vs HulkFlash (kiki kill)(with top/balance/confidant)

[Citrus-God]

Goblins vs HulkFlash (with top/balance/confidant)

So Counterbalance is good in Legacy.

[technogeek5000]

dang so sui is out?

[Belgareth]

It is in a flash environment, it's served him quite well I'd say.

[Finn]

Well, Turtenwald's deck is on the Wizards blog. Not a freaking ounce of anti-Flash. Guess he didn't get the memo. It's downright puzzling.

On a side note, it's really too bad that Paul Cheon did not make t8. There are about 13 photos of him in the coverage.

He has a good chance against KikiFlash though - ya know with gempalms and all.

[Belgareth]

Steve Sadin is playing Kiki-Jiki Flash with Counterbalance, Top and Dark Confidant.
Nicolo is UGR Threshold.
Bill Stark is MBA.
Mike Belfatto is BW Aggro.
Gadiel Szleifer is Kiki-Jiki Flash.
Owen Turtenwald is Vial Goblins.
Ryan Trepanier is Vial Goblins.


Those are the decks , so to be honest it comes down to Pre flash top deck vs Flash.
I'd guess if goblins wins ban lackey , flash wins ban flash ;)
At least that's the sort of sense DCI make these days.

[BreathWeapon]

I think you mean "essential."

The pump knights fucking blow my mind, though that deck DOES have one of my favorite plays from a BG deck I used to play - turn 2 Ritual, Jitte, equip. Very few people ever expect that.

Stromgald Crusader is sensible if for no other reason that it can't be Swords To Plowshares in response to equipping an Umezawa's Jitte and it has evasion, but I can't figure out the reason for Order of the Ebonhand over Black Knight, because Black Knight has two toughness and free First strike, or the rest of the creatures could have consisted of 2cc evasion creatures. I guess the BB +1/0 is THAT much of a difference in his matches.

[Peter_Rotten]

Well, Turtenwald's deck is on the Wizards blog. Not a freaking ounce of anti-Flash. Guess he didn't get the memo. It's downright puzzling.

Well Crypt, Blasts, and Pyrokinesis will help against Kiki builds...

[andrew77]

Wow that top 2 sucks. I don't want goblins to win but I don't want steve sadin to win either. Why couldn't gadiel jsut win the damn gp.

[FoolofaTook]

Stromgald Crusader is sensible if for no other reason that it can't be Swords To Plowshares in response to equipping an Umezawa's Jitte and it has evasion, but I can't figure out the reason for Order of the Ebonhand over Black Knight, because Black Knight has two toughness and free First strike, or the rest of the creatures could have consisted of 2cc evasion creatures. I guess the BB +1/0 is THAT much of a difference in his matches.

Pumpknights give you options in standoffs. A Black Knight is just a 2/2 critter that doesn't get any better if a standoff ensues.

[Finn]

Yeah. All Turtenwald's hate is against the Kiki version. And he has a goddamn ton of it. But it's all generic. That's actually really cool.

[FoolofaTook]

Did Turtenwald knock out Szleifer or was it his 1st round match? And what was Tietze playing?

[Kilz88]

Did Turtenwald knock out Szleifer or was it his 1st round match? And what was Tietze playing?


Tietze was playing confidant as well:

2 Flash
2 Confidant
2 Goblins
1 Thresh
1 MBA.dec (that should have won)...lol

[technogeek5000]

So did sui get 3rd or 4th.

[Anusien]

Tietze was playing confidant as well
How do you know? Where is this information coming from?

[Kilz88]

How do you know? Where is this information coming from?

"SpencerForHire"...right next to the finals table. :wink:

[Finn]

OK, so Flash showed up for top 8 - twice. Let me be the first to say this. It seems to have been overhyped. We might be living with it for quite some time.

[FoolofaTook]

OK, so Flash showed up for top 8 - twice. Let me be the first to say this. It seems to have been overhyped. We might be living with it for quite some time.

Pact of Negation.

[Kilz88]

OK, so Flash showed up for top 8 - twice. Let me be the first to say this. It seems to have been overhyped. We might be living with it for quite some time.

Two words: Future Sight.

No we will not. June 1st brings the end of hulk flash.

[Belgareth]

Problem is Finn, a lot of the flash decks eliminated other flash decks.

[andrew77]

OK, so Flash showed up for top 8 - twice. Let me be the first to say this. It seems to have been overhyped. We might be living with it for quite some time.

Flash influenced the whole metagame. Goblin decks are running maindeck hate and what not. If wizards doesnt fix this i'm going to sell my legacy staples and buy some workshops and bazaars and switch to type 1.

[DrJones]

OK, so Flash showed up for top 8 - twice. Let me be the first to say this. It seems to have been overhyped. We might be living with it for quite some time.Look at it this way. The GP was full of hate decks, and Flash Hulk wins anyway. (Assuming that Flash Hulk wins, which is very likely)

Also, now that the Pacts are legal, Flash Hulk is even more retarded. That the deck will be killed on 1st June is a giveaway.

[Horror Business]

I ran a comparable Goblin build to Turtenwald's(MD difference was less Mires and more Mountains and actual combo hate in the form of Pillar in the SB) a couple weeks ago and got rocked.
Heres to hoping Flash gets banned and there is some sort of update worth reading on mtg.com soon...

[revenge_inc]

WTF How did Ryan Trep get in? Douchiest Magic player in Ontario...

I last saw him at the extended PTQ in Rochester where he bombed out. He was the loudest guy in the room.

If any of you Upstate NY guys are PTQ regulars you probably noticed this guy...still can't believe he made Top 8. :confused:



Funniest thread ever (started by this infamous top 8 contender):
http://www.mtgontario.com/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4947


EDIT:
Yesssssssssssssssssss he lost his match

[Anusien]

Update.

Spencer lied to you (sorry man), Tietze seems to be running Fish. There was a different BW deck in the T8. It appears to be the Big Fish build with Mother of Runes, Serra Avenger, Grunt, UWB.

Trepanier appears to be on Flash, not Goblins as previously stated.

[Anusien]

Sadin wins.

[Kilz88]

Update.

Spencer lied to you (sorry man), Tietze seems to be running Fish. There was a different BW deck in the T8. It appears to be the Big Fish build with Mother of Runes, Serra Avenger, Grunt, UWB.

Trepanier appears to be on Flash, not Goblins as previously stated.

Its ok. I will give the tounge lashing to spencer later...He was already gonna get one for not playing Flash anyway...But thanks for the CORRECT info. So to finalize things:

3 Flash
2 Goblins
1 Confidant
1 MBA/Sui
1 Thresh

=

2 Flash
1 Goblins
1 MBA

=

Flash VS Goblins

=

FLASH!!!!!!!!!!

[Finn]

Sadin wins, according to Binswanger

hmm, guess you all knew that.

[Peter_Rotten]

Wow, who would of thought that Flash would win the GP? :roll:

[diopter]

Flash influenced the whole metagame. Goblin decks are running maindeck hate and what not. If wizards doesnt fix this i'm going to sell my legacy staples and buy some workshops and bazaars and switch to type 1.

Goblins influenced the entire metagame before Flash came around.

EDIT: Delete rant due to incorrect info.

[Anusien]

More like:

3 Flash
1 Goblins
1 Confidant
1 MBA/Sui
1 Fish
1 Thresh
=
1 Flash
1 Fish
1 Goblins
1 MBA
=
Flash VS Goblins
=
Flash Wins

[Belgareth]

Well that really shows Goblins staying power tbh.
I'm glad Flash won , now it can be banned and we can all go back to playing sane decks.
I do think this GP was more luck based than skill based tbh, but I guess we knew that.

[Finn]

Hmm. Well, I guess that actually is a lot of Flash. Three instead of two is kind of a big deal. And now that it won. And since FS is going to make it a lot better, we assume. Yeah, it looks like a ban.

I truly hope so.

[Anusien]

I do think this GP was more luck based than skill based tbh, but I guess we knew that.
Is this why the pros dominated the tournament?

Hmm. Well, I guess that actually is a lot of Flash. Three instead of two is kind of a big deal. And now that it won. And since FS is going to make it a lot better, we assume. Yeah, it looks like a ban.

I truly hope so.
Considering Goblins putting 3 into a T8 is not that unusual, I don't think this equates a ban. Honestly, the tournament seems to prove that Flash is fair but good in the pre-FS meta. I predict no ban, just because I don't think they're going to pull the trigger. They seem hesitant to do so.

[revenge_inc]

I'm happy Flash won, it does help the odds of it getting banned but I hope they don't touch Lackey or Vial because Goblins did well...

[Rood]

Is this why the pros dominated the tournament?

Considering Goblins putting 3 into a T8 is not that unusual, I don't think this equates a ban. Honestly, the tournament seems to prove that Flash is fair but good in the pre-FS meta. I predict no ban, just because I don't think they're going to pull the trigger. They seem hesitant to do so.

If they do ban it then we can all go to our answers to goblin lackey again

[diopter]

I'm happy Flash won, it does help the odds of it getting banned but I hope they don't touch Lackey or Vial because Goblins did well...

I hope they ban Lackey and Vial. Considering that Goblins put 2 into the top 8, that means the aggro deck is just as dominant and format warping. Right?

[FoolofaTook]

Well that really shows Goblins staying power tbh.
I'm glad Flash won , now it can be banned and we can all go back to playing sane decks.
I do think this GP was more luck based than skill based tbh, but I guess we knew that.

Gadiel Szleifer made his 4th top 8 playing a deck he couldn't have designed more than 8 weeks ago. I think skill was there along with the luck too.

[Belgareth]

Is this why the pros dominated the tournament?


Pro's with flash. Draw your own conclusions from this as you will.

[Illissius]

Pro's with flash. Draw your own conclusions from this as you will.

Pros play well. Flash is a good deck.

[Finn]

It looks like it was just the one, diopter. But since the one DID go to the finals, now we simply have to account for turn1 Lackey AND Flash barring a ban. That may actually throw Legacy back into a proper rock/paper/scissors scenario, with control able to assemble tools for either combo or aggro, but not really both.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I hope they ban Lackey and Vial. Considering that Goblins put 2 into the top 8, that means the aggro deck is just as dominant and format warping. Right?

What reports are you reading? WotC has 3 Flash and 1 Goblins, and Jack confirmed that on the phone.

[ApokalypseKid9]

WTF How did Ryan Trep get in? Douchiest Magic player in Ontario...

I last saw him at the extended PTQ in Rochester where he bombed out. He was the loudest guy in the room.

If any of you Upstate NY guys are PTQ regulars you probably noticed this guy...still can't believe he made Top 8. :confused:



Funniest thread ever (started by this infamous top 8 contender):
http://www.mtgontario.com/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4947
That is the best thread I have ever read. And it wasn't a joke. Best learning experience of the GP!

[laststepdown]

I know he plays Stax in Vintage. Does he play a Stax varient in Legacy too?

no. lftl control.

[diopter]

It looks like it was just the one, diopter. But since the one DID go to the finals, now we simply have to account for turn1 Lackey AND Flash barring a ban. That may actually throw Legacy back into a proper rock/paper/scissors scenario, with control able to assemble tools for either combo or aggro, but not really both.

Thanks Finn. Goddamn conflicting info.

Anyways, even when it was reported that Flash and Goblins both had 2 top8's, everybody was ready to call Goblins lucky for dodging Flash AND ready to ban Flash despite a poorer-than-expected/hyped placement in the top 8. What gives?

3 Flash however... it is worth considering banning. But only because the GP results went the way they did. Although nobody should forget that Thresh placed 3 in the top 8 at Lille.

[Illissius]

What reports are you reading? WotC has 3 Flash and 1 Goblins, and Jack confirmed that on the phone.

During the day two coverage they mentioned Ryan being on Goblins. Apparently, this was wrong.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Thanks Finn. Goddamn conflicting info.

Anyways, even when it was reported that Flash and Goblins both had 2 top8's, everybody was ready to call Goblins lucky for dodging Flash AND ready to ban Flash despite a poorer-than-expected/hyped placement in the top 8. What gives?

Oh come on. What people were or weren't ready to do on an Magic forum has jack-all to do with what deck is busted and what isn't, and you damned well know it.

And all I have to say is; nobody plays MD Unmask in a healthy enviroment. I've never seen that except in the days of Long.dec and Dragon.



On another note, I found this rather interesting:

"There have been more than a few "guess the deck" games after boarding at this GP and this could be guessing Sadin would go with the guy plan of Quirion Dryads."

That's damned poignant. From the reports, everyone and their mother was running a conversional SB, and half the deck that weren't Flash were SBing into Flash, and a lot of Flash decks were SBing into some kind of beats.

[laststepdown]

Oh come on. What people were or weren't ready to do on an Magic forum has jack-all to do with what deck is busted and what isn't, and you damned well know it.

And all I have to say is; nobody plays MD Unmask in a healthy enviroment. I've never seen that except in the days of Long.dec and Dragon.

Necro ran unmask, and spinning darkness...aren't free spells supposed to be tech?

[diopter]

Oh come on. What people were or weren't ready to do on an Magic forum has jack-all to do with what deck is busted and what isn't, and you damned well know it.

And all I have to say is; nobody plays MD Unmask in a healthy enviroment. I've never seen that except in the days of Long.dec and Dragon.

All I am saying is that half the shit being thrown about Flash (on both sides, the anti-Flash side is just much larger) is baseless hyperbole.

I'm fully ready to concede that given these results at the GP, Flash can now be considered for banning on June 1st.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Necro ran unmask. and spinning darkness.
aren't free spells supposed to be tech?

Free sorceries that force you into heavy black, costs you card advantage, and are a lot worse than FoW late-game(since it does nothing to topdecks or Brainstorm) generally haven't been playable. Unless the meta is blazingly fast, Therapy and Duress and Hymn should all be much superior.


All I am saying is that half the shit being thrown about Flash (on both sides, the anti-Flash side is just much larger) is baseless hyperbole.

I think it'd be more accurate to say that people are using terms freely that have no agreed upon meaning in the context of the argument. What is "broken"? What is "healthy"? What is "distorted"? What's even the idea behind banning a card? People have no unified vision of these things, so arguing about them ends up as a shouting contest of who can rally their side more.


I'm fully ready to concede that given these results at the GP, Flash can now be considered for banning on June 1st.

Well thank you White Jesus.

I think "considered" is sort of an under-statement;

Closer examination:

3 Hulk
1 MBA w/ Serum Powder and Unmask MD, + Leyline in the SB.
1 Thresh
1 Gro/Fish?

I don't know the B/W list, but I'd be surprised if it was as delightfully unaware of Flash's existence as the t8 Goblins list. Props to him, but I'm skeptical anyone else in the t16 or even t32 was running a decklist so seemingly oblivious of the meta-game shift.

So we have 3 Hulk, 4 aggro-control, and 1 Goblins. And Hulk takes it down. So yeah, it looks pretty distorted. We'll have a more thorough picture when we know the t16.

[revenge_inc]

During the day two coverage they mentioned Ryan being on Goblins. Apparently, this was wrong.


I can so see Ryan say he's playing a different deck just to get a feature match. :laugh:

The coverage mentions he was begging for attention all weekend.

[Citrus-God]

That is the best thread I have ever read. And it wasn't a joke. Best learning experience of the GP!

I LOLed when i wne tthrough that thread. God he's a dumbass.

[Belgareth]

I'm fully ready to concede that given these results at the GP, Flash can now be considered for banning on June 1st.

Oh now that you agree it's all ok ;)
Anyone with any real sense knew flash was too powerful, the only suprise I had from the GP was the no hate goblins deck making it so far.
3 decks in top8 really shows it's impact, and people havn't had huge time to work on a list yet, add in future sight and you get a lot more potential.

[BreathWeapon]

All I am saying is that half the shit being thrown about Flash (on both sides, the anti-Flash side is just much larger) is baseless hyperbole.

I'm fully ready to concede that given these results at the GP, Flash can now be considered for banning on June 1st.

After its performance at the GP, and considering Hulk Flash gets a full turn faster after Summoner's Pact, I can't see the DCI not addressing Hulk Flash in June.

Flash was Russian Roulette before the GP, and it's a 12 gauge in the mouth after Future Sight.

[andrew77]

I hope they ban Lackey and Vial. Considering that Goblins put 2 into the top 8, that means the aggro deck is just as dominant and format warping. Right?

Prehulk flash goblins was good, but it was also the most played deck. Thats why so many people placed well with it. From what i have heard flash wasn't nearly as heavily played as it was hyped, but it did much better than any other deck overall.

Flash also creates an unhealthy environment. Preflash there were a number of competitive decks. With flash around you cant successfully play a deck unless it disrupts flash. That was enver the case with goblins. Belcher, TES, and Iggy Pop didnt care about turn one lackey. They were just faster than goblins. These combo decks aren't faster than flash though because of flash's disruption. Flash is also still fast enough to beat goblins and can pack enough disruption to beat control. This is a problem.

If you wish to continue as a member of The Source, please refrain from insulting other members whether you find their ideas frustrating or not.

-PR

[Finn]

Ya know, Bel. After looking at his list, he had fairly good anti Kiki Flash cards - even in the main. And a lot of them. And that version seems to have not quite well if the T8 is any indication. So he has roughly half the number of Flash decks that kick his tail - not a bad gamble, really.

[Phantom]

And all I have to say is; nobody plays MD Unmask in a healthy enviroment. I've never seen that except in the days of Long.dec and Dragon.


Exactly. Success and format warping (and unhealthy) are not the same thing!

I mean, if Thresh put 6 into the top 8, would we be calling for the ban of Mongoose? Good decks exist in healthy formats. Sometimes even dominant decks. The problem is when a deck is SO good that it forces EXTREMELY specific and downright janky hate to be run. You could argue that Lackey forced decks to run mildly crappy cards to be run main and sideboard, but I doubt anyone could argue it ever forced anything like maindeck Leylines and Unmasks.

And sideboard Serum Powders say it all! My deck run 45 hate cards, but I need free mulligans to find the right ones or I will lose.

Edit: What's with that BW list? Maindeck Contagion? Pump Knights? Is this Necro?

[etrigan]

Edit: What's with that BW list? Maindeck Contagion? Pump Knights? Is this Necro?

Contagion does a lot of things, stopping both Lackey and the Kiki-Jiki kill, while trading 1-for-1 with a lot of stuff. Nich tech.

[MattH]

Actually, this T8 is one of the least-good reasons to ban Flash. If all you saw was the T8 you'd think it's a good but containable deck, which is not the case.

[FoolofaTook]

Free sorceries that force you into heavy black, costs you card advantage, and are a lot worse than FoW late-game(since it does nothing to topdecks or Brainstorm) generally haven't been playable. Unless the meta is blazingly fast, Therapy and Duress and Hymn should all be much superior.

Just looking at Unmask it seems as though it would work very well in a deck with Dark Rituals, in the same way FoW works well with other blue spells. It's an anti-card advantage spell, which is normally weak, however a turn 1 Unmask to take an StP or FoW or Disenchant out of somebody's hand is probably better than using the ritual on an easily removable permanent.

A few turns down the road one of the cards you least want to draw in that deck is probably a ritual and having Unmask in the deck at least creates some value there also.

The other thing about Unmask is you can cast it turn one for the Duress effect and still leave a blue or red mana up for Brainstorm or Pyroblast. That would seem to have some tactical significance on turn 1 and even later turns before mana is established.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

The other thing about Unmask is you can cast it turn one for the Duress effect and still leave a blue or red mana up for Brainstorm or Pyroblast. That would seem to have some tactical significance on turn 1 and even later turns before mana is established.

You're talking about leaving mana open for Pyroblast. Clearly we are not discussing the same thing. I'm saying that in a healthy Legacy meta-game, plays like that are weaksauce at best. When you're leaving mana open for Pyroblast with your Unmask, MD, we have some rather obvious problems.


Actually, this T8 is one of the least-good reasons to ban Flash. If all you saw was the T8 you'd think it's a good but containable deck, which is not the case.

If you saw it in a vacuum, you're right. Threshold had 3 slot at Philly(though they all lost their first round). I'm speaking as a vindication, or final point on top of everything else all ready weighing against Hulk Flash.

[Soto]

what i hate is that in their profiles they are all saying (maybe not all) that flash doesn't need to get banned and it's stupid because there are like 3 in the top 8 plus like 25% of people playing it.

[The Rack]

Does anybody know the top 16 yet?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I find that interesting too. Most of them are pros or Vintage/Limited players, though. I guess if all I cared about was winning, I'd like the format to be as stupidly predictable as possible too.

Although of the few that actually said it should be banned, the guy who actually won with it is one of them. Shrug.

[FoolofaTook]

You're talking about leaving mana open for Pyroblast. Clearly we are not discussing the same thing. I'm saying that in a healthy Legacy meta-game, plays like that are weaksauce at best. When you're leaving mana open for Pyroblast with your Unmask, MD, we have some rather obvious problems.

I haven't competed heavily in the tournament environment for more than a decade at this point, so forgive the noobish questions - but I have a few of them. :)

When I last competed there was just one format and it was fairly normal for most decks with any red in them to include 2 or 3 Red Elemental Blasts maindeck, mainly to cut off the big blue before they turned into a problem although you might catch a Serendib Efreet now and then also.

Aren't there enough really obnoxious blue spells making the rounds to make a couple of Pyros a reasonable investment MD if you are playing red? I'm thinking Brainstorm is fully as obnoxious as big blue ever was, if not present in as many of the decks. Lim-Dul's vault was broken a decade ago, I can't imagine it's gotten any less broken with what you can dig up with it now.

It could be that I'm just not seeing the big picture and blue really is not present in the majority of the decks.

[Phantom]

Yeah, most of them don't give a crap, and if they do it's in favor of a warped, small meta (I think). To my knowledge, none of them play Legacy for fun, so why do they care if our format isn't fun?

@Took: Yeah, it might be hard to understand if you haven't paid attention to Legacy for a while. Blue was probably the best color, but it was at least close, and NO ONE ran maindeck REBs or anything as drastic as that. Most of the maindeck considerations are given to Goblins via Plague or Clasm.

[technogeek5000]

I hope they ban Lackey and Vial. Considering that Goblins put 2 into the top 8, that means the aggro deck is just as dominant and format warping. Right?

Definately wrong... goblins is no where near as format warping as flash... the reason goblins put 2 in the top 8 is because it beats decks designed to beat flash. Goblins top's 8 as often as other decks because there is hate... hulk flash is fast enough to deal with/avoid hate because it wins turns 1-2 the majority of the time. Goblins wins turn 3-5 and is more suseptible to hate.

[Di]

Just got home. Lots of things to say, but that can all be handled in another thread.

Now, to address the issue about Flash:

As someone who was at the event and played the deck (to 6-3, despite starting 5-1 boooo), I find myself in a wierd position. Initially, I was one of the people for the banning of Flash. But during the event I realized a lot of things about it, including:

- It was largely overhyped. It did warp the field in an astounding way (50% of the metagame was Fish/Threshold/aggro-control), but Flash wasn't played nearly as much as I thought it would be. Only roughly 15% of the field was Flash. It should also be noted that it wasn't the majority deck going into day 2 like we all assumed (I could be wrong on this, but I didn't see all that much Flash up there).

- It would beat matchups that it shouldn't beat, but lose to matchups it shouldn't lose to. I beat the hell out of Threshold and Fish, but I lost to an RGB Beats that featured barely any hate at all. A lot of other Flash players were beating through Fish as well, but then losing to random aggro. Most of the general Legacy metagame is composed of random decks, so I'm unsure as to how I judge this.

- Those "hate" decks that people have for it suck, Fish being one of them. I know many Flash players probably lost to it, but everyone I know playing the deck, including myself, steamrolled through Fish. It wasn't even a challenge, really. If a hate deck like that was getting beaten with ease by Flash, that raises some flags.



It should probably be banning due to the basic fact that it completely warped the metagame, but I honestly believe the deck isn't all-powerful like we believed. It *did* win the tournament which proves something, but given the fact that it can lose just as easily as it can win will prove to be an interesting outcome for the banning process.

[T is for TOOL]

The t8 was:

Flash vs. Flash (Flash wins)
MBA vs. B/W Aggro (MBA wins)
Flash vs. Fish (Fish wins)
Goblins vs. Thresh (Goblins wins)

t4 was:

Flash vs. MBA (Flash wins)
Goblins vs. Fish (Goblins wins)

t2 was:

Flash vs. Goblins (Flash wins)

Flash is broken as hell btw. It will be gone June 1st.

[Phantom]

It should probably be banning due to the basic fact that it completely warped the metagame, but I honestly believe the deck isn't all-powerful like we believed. It *did* win the tournament which proves something, but given the fact that it can lose just as easily as it can win will prove to be an interesting outcome for the banning process.

I understand what you're saying (I think) but I'm not sure anyone was complaining about the deck being invincible (well, no one reasonable anyway). The thing we were worried about was the warping of the meta (clearly present) and the making certain decks unplayable. You seem to have found differently on the second point, but I'm not sure the results back you up. I would bet that hate decks do much better against Flash than non hate decks (if it's not by much then that makes Flash all the scarier) as evidenced by one deck in the T8 that wasn't Flash or Flash hate.

Thanks for the first hand report. We've been dying here!

[MattH]

If you saw it in a vacuum, you're right. Threshold had 3 slot at Philly(though they all lost their first round). I'm speaking as a vindication, or final point on top of everything else all ready weighing against Hulk Flash.
Yes, a vacuum is what I was saying. I have always assumed Flash will be banned. I will be upset if it is not. I have not seen anyone else advocate my position on the matter, which is that it's fine for a couple weeks, bad in the long term.


It would beat matchups that it shouldn't beat, but lose to matchups it shouldn't lose to.
...
I know many Flash players...steamrolled through Fish. It wasn't even a challenge, really.
Sounds to me like people just overtweaked against Fish and lost too much speed in favor of resiliency. No?

[juventus]

Sure, flash isn't invincible, but compared to some of the decks they have banned in the past like FCG and Dragon (and earthcraft squirrel nest lawl), I think it is more broken. I could be wrong, but I think Dragon was more susceptible to spot removal and graveyard hate, and possibly the dragon combo is harder to set up. I personally hope it gets banned so decks don't have to sacrifice power for speed (for example unmask).

[Di]

The thing we were worried about was the warping of the meta (clearly present) and the making certain decks unplayable.

For some reason I forgot to mention this. I must be high on Flash, because I completely disregarded the fact that I am unable to play Survival anymore. Fuck, it needs to be banned, E!GBRUATSA (formerly known as EATS!) is the only deck I own, and not having adequate resources to build Flash again means I can't play Legacy.


Sounds to me like people just overtweaked against Fish and lost too much speed in favor of resiliency. No?

Perhaps. My personal build had the tweaking of the Fish match but still had the speed potential for turn 1 wins. It probably was a fluke number of bad beats (which happened ALL THE FUCKING TIME) because generally if it was able to beat Fish, in theory it should've beaten anything else.


Oh yeah, to the idiot saying the Kiki-Jiki version is the "suckass" version: you are dead wrong. The Kiki-Jiki version not only put up the best results, but was by far the majority in day 2 for Flash decks. There were very few people who actually ran the Disciple version, but they must feel like they're better deckbuilders than the rest of us, as they felt it was more adequate to build a deck that featured only 49 relevant cards. I will give kudos to Stephen Menendian for making day 2 with the deck (and to any others as well), despite the fact that he may have possibly been going through the effects of cocaine the entire time (seriously, wtf was that? All that sniffing was making me get a craving too!)

[Phantom]

Sounds to me like people just overtweaked against Fish and lost too much speed in favor of resiliency. No?

Agreed (although none of the Disciple build T8ing might indicate otherwise). If Diablos is correct and Flash was only 15% of the field, eating up almost 40% of the T8 and winning the whole thing after just a month or so in existence is pretty damn impressive.

[mikekelley]

So the average age of the top 8 was like 19, right?

Time to sell all my shit, at 20 i am already heading over the hill.

Hell, i'm halfway down.

[FoolofaTook]

So the average age of the top 8 was like 19, right?

Time to sell all my shit, at 20 i am already heading over the hill.

Hell, i'm halfway down.

Hehe.

Don't feel too bad about the age thing. In the late 90's most of the players were 18-35 and there was a pretty even mixing. I'm guessing that's where we're headed in the future, given that a lot of people have been exposed to Magic in the last decade and they'll be back for more at some point.

Don't sell your cards. It's 10x more expensive to reacquire them in 5 years than just to put them away in nice white cardboard boxes. Got mine out 3 weeks ago and they hadn't aged at all in the last decade. :)

[Smmenen]

Oh yeah, to the idiot saying the Kiki-Jiki version is the "suckass" version: you are dead wrong. The Kiki-Jiki version not only put up the best results, but was by far the majority in day 2 for Flash decks. There were very few people who actually ran the Disciple version, but they must feel like they're better deckbuilders than the rest of us, as they felt it was more adequate to build a deck that featured only 49 relevant cards. I will give kudos to Stephen Menendian for making day 2 with the deck (and to any others as well), despite the fact that he may have possibly been going through the effects of cocaine the entire time (seriously, wtf was that? All that sniffing was making me get a craving too!)

First of all, you are completely wrong about the Kiki v. Disciple. My article that goes live tomorrow discusses this question in detail. If you actually want to attack the reasoning in the article, then do so, but wait until I explain it. Also, your assumption that it takes 11 slots just shows how ignorant you are. Calling me an idiot really doesn't help your case either.

Finally, I had a HORRIBLE cold last week. I took three days off work and I'm just in the recovery phase and have been sniffling and coughing all weekend. I'm glad you turned my sickness and suffering into your merth.

[BreathWeapon]

First of all, you are completely wrong about the Kiki v. Disciple. My article that goes live tomorrow discusses this question in detail. If you actually want to attack the reasoning in the article, then do so, but wait until I explain it. Also, your assumption that it takes 11 slots just shows how ignorant you are. Calling me an idiot really doesn't help your case either.

Finally, I had a HORRIBLE cold last week. I took three days off work and I'm just in the recovery phase and have been sniffling and coughing all weekend. I'm glad you turned my sickness and suffering into your merth.

He was referencing Arrowni's comment and calling him an idiot, not calling you an idiot.

[Horror Business]

"Do you think Flash needs to be banned in Legacy?
Definitely not. Turn 2 Flash is no more broken than turn 1 Vial or Lackey."

Is that not the most absurd thing ever?


"How much work did you put in for the format?
None"

"How much work did you put in for the format?
I was too busy with school to test for this tournament. I got my list from Billy Moreno right before the tournament"

"How much work did you put in for the format?
None"

"How much work did you put in for the format?
2 days of testing (14 hours), tons of reading"


Interesting...

[Di]

Finally, I had a HORRIBLE cold last week. I took three days off work and I'm just in the recovery phase and have been sniffling and coughing all weekend. I'm glad you turned my sickness and suffering into your merth.

Actually that whole coke thing was a reference by someone standing next to me while we were watching your match. I happened to laugh rather hard about it. No offense.


First of all, you are completely wrong about the Kiki v. Disciple. My article that goes live tomorrow discusses this question in detail. If you actually want to attack the reasoning in the article, then do so, but wait until I explain it. Also, your assumption that it takes 11 slots just shows how ignorant you are. Calling me an idiot really doesn't help your case either.

Then I plan on doing so. I, along with a majority of the people who've tested both versions of the deck, have found that the consistency and resiliency of the Kiki-Jiki version greatly outweights the fact that it is potentially a disruptable combo. But, I am rather interested in finding the measure of my ignorance because I see 11 slots in the deck that do not do the following:

- Find Flash, Protean Hulk, or any other card for that matter.
- Look at the opponent's hand and discard a card.
- Counter target spell.
- Add mana to the mana pool.

I haven't personally seen your list so I can't technically say your list is running 4 Disciple of the Vault and 7 0cc artifact creatures, but is rather an assumption based on the general principles of the Disciple stack. I actually look forward to seeing your attempt at proving me wrong.

Also, I did not call you an idiot. I disagree with many of the things you say regarding this format, but I at least give your opinions thought and respect. As someone pointed out already, I was referring to the person posting.

[Phantom]

Interesting...

It is, but I think it was to be expected. The meta was so new that over preparation was completely unnecessary. Everyone just took a guess. In a non Flash meta, Legacy experts with a ton of testing and preparation might have had a slight advantage.

That or people are just incredible players and/or lucky.

[Anarky87]

I'm kind of undecided about Flash myself. Having been there and played against it (1-1 for both days) and can't really make a case for or against it really. Clearly it has the capabilities to just tear through whatever (I heard this comment the most on both days of people who lost to a turn 1 Flash with double counter back-up), but, like Diablos said, it can just lose games it should have no business losing (I heard one guy lost to Goblins).

I played it once on Day 1, beating the guy 2-0 and the deck didn't really seem that impressive, as I was able to stop his combo both times and had double Leyline + Mage game 2. I lost to it on Day 2 after I stopped the initial attempt, to which he Brainstormed on his upkeep the turn before I would win into a Hulk a presume, cast Flash, I countered, and he Flashed again and that was that. Sometimes it looks like the worst deck and puts up no fight, and yet at other times, it's almost bullet proof.

So, after having witnessed the deck in actual tournament play, I really don't know what route to take. I think it might be better for the format in general to not have it -or- let it stay and see if the players can handle it, because it appeared that they did an ok job (I believe my friend was undefeated against Flash both days playing Fish).

PS: It was great meeting alot of the Sourcers while I was there (Noobslayer, ObFreely, IBA, Bane, Stolze, Wastedlife, Diablos, etc.). I'm glad I can put faces with the names now and I had a great time. Hope to visit another event soon.

[BreathWeapon]

Actually that whole coke thing was a reference by someone standing next to me while we were watching your match. I happened to laugh rather hard about it. No offense.



Then I plan on doing so. I, along with a majority of the people who've tested both versions of the deck, have found that the consistency and resiliency of the Kiki-Jiki version greatly outweights the fact that it is potentially a disruptable combo. But, I am rather interested in finding the measure of my ignorance because I see 11 slots in the deck that do not do the following:

- Find Flash, Protean Hulk, or any other card for that matter.
- Look at the opponent's hand and discard a card.
- Counter target spell.
- Add mana to the mana pool.

I haven't personally seen your list so I can't technically say your list is running 4 Disciple of the Vault and 7 0cc artifact creatures, but is rather an assumption based on the general principles of the Disciple stack. I actually look forward to seeing your attempt at proving me wrong.

Also, I did not call you an idiot. I disagree with many of the things you say regarding this format, but I at least give your opinions thought and respect. As someone pointed out already, I was referring to the person posting.

There's no reason to use 11 slots instead of 9 slots for the Disciple kill condition. It's not worth wasting 2 slots to be able to win with a Disciple in hand, when Disciple can be hard cast or Brainstormed back. 11 slots are for the people using Summoner's Pact or Pact of Negation, where the kill condition has to kill the opponent in one turn, and/or using Unmask, Gemstone Caverns and Chrome Mox, where the dead cards can fuel the RFG effects.

Being immune to spot removal, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt etc. and being able to win at instant speed can be worth losing an additional slot in the deck. Altho' the Kiki-Jiki version can win at instant speed with Teardrop Kami and Bloodshot Cyclops to, it has serious problems against conventional removal and unconventional removal like MD Sudden Shock and Pyrite Spellbomb.

You can also do a lot of stuff in the mirror with Commandeer and Twincast if you can win on your opponent's turn.

[vroman]

Vroman is someone I'm curious about, amoung others.

I played 4c lifeloam control

4 mox diamond
2 taiga
2 bayou
2 savanah
1 badland
1 plateau
1 scrubland
1 forest
1 bloodstainmire
1 woodfoothill
3 windswept heath
3 wasteland
3 tranquil thicket
1 tabernacle
1 volrath stronghold
2 mishras factory
4 lifeloam
4 eternal witness
1 genesis
3 duress
2 devastating dream
2 words of war
3 sylvan library
4 sword plowshare
4 children korlis
1 exploration
3 pernicious deed
side
4 leyline void
4 sphere resistance
4 constant mists
3 hail storm

good:
factory
sylibrary
words war

bad:
duress
whole sideboard

[xsockmonkeyx]

There's no reason to use 11 slots instead of 9 slots for the Disciple kill condition. It's not worth wasting 2 slots to be able to win with a Disciple in hand, when Disciple can be hard cast or Brainstormed back.

In my experience things like shuffling combo pieces back into the deck or needing an extra mana before going off are bigger problems then you are implying. Having to go grab a Brainstorm before comboing (because you drew into one of your pieces) sucks a lot as does digging for another land.

[Di]

PS: It was great meeting alot of the Sourcers while I was there (Noobslayer, ObFreely, IBA, Bane, Stolze, Wastedlife, Diablos, etc.). I'm glad I can put faces with the names now and I had a great time. Hope to visit another event soon.

Did we meet? I'm honestly unsure of who I met because very few people actually told me who they were, or they were people who didn't post but were instead lurkers for the most part. However I'm pretty sure that everyone saw me but didn't know who I was, because I stuck out like a sore thumb. If anyone remembers a short, skinny, incredibly sexy kid wearing sunglasses the entire time, you saw me. And I know what you're thinking and the answer is yes: I do sleep with supermodels.

Perhaps someone should start a thread about the GP experience and who they met and whatnot. It'd greatly help me in realizing who I did and did not meet, and which males outside of Caboose want to sleep with me (I am the new Johnny Depp).


There's no reason to use 11 slots instead of 9 slots for the Disciple kill condition. It's not worth wasting 2 slots to be able to win with a Disciple in hand, when Disciple can be hard cast or Brainstormed back. 11 slots are for the people using Summoner's Pact or Pact of Negation, where the kill condition has to kill the opponent in one turn, and/or using Unmask, Gemstone Caverns and Chrome Mox, where the dead cards can fuel the RFG effects.

Where are you getting 9 slots from? From what I know, every list I've seen on the internet has run 11 slots for the Disciple kill.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

A few subtle points I'm going to take a stab at;

Losing to Goblins and jank and beating Fish with Hulk; this wasn't actually that uncommon a theme from what I've been hearing. The subtlety here is that the versions most people are running are really meta-game versions of Hulk, designed specifically to deal with aggro-control that was designed to deal with the original Hulk Flash lists. So you DO end up losing some speed and consistency for resiliency. If you had been playing the speed version, it's unlikely that you would run into a lot of problems with "jank". I don't view this as a mitigating factor regarding the deck's bustedness, I view it as another concern. The deck-type Flash in and of itself shows as much flexibility and more power than entire arche-types like Control and Aggro. It effectively turns the format into Hulk(deck) vs Aggro-control(entire archetype) vs everything else than can feed off of aggro-control(multiple arche-types). This isn't the same kind of deal as Solidarity beats Goblins beats Thresh beats Solidarity; you're not talking about equal levels of specificity. This isn't a deck vs deck vs deck format, it's a deck vs single arche-type vs other arche-types format.

This is before we consider the problems that Hulk can cause in the form of transformational sideboards. The ability for any deck in the colors to threaten a G2 Hulk out of left field is just another burning bus in the obstacle course of Hulk.format.

Which brings us to the second point, the question of Disciple vs Kiki-jiki. It seems to me that in an objective sense the Kiki build is superior because of its compact package and ability to deal with most hate, and its edge over the mirror. The complication is that as that perception enters the public consciousness, the Kiki build becomes worse and worse, since there are many more ways to hate it than the Disciple build. This isn't insignifigant. But it doesn't mean that Hulk is any worse as a combo for that fact. It means that if you're building a non-Hulk deck that hates specifically on the Kiki build, you're probably better off running the Disciple kill in Hulk, since it means a meta-game of decks that are betting on only running into Kiki and his army of angels, which means dead cards against the Disciple kill, which means you go back to the original problem of the non-metagamed Hulk list.

So these two things add up to the conclusion that whatever mitigating factors there are against Hulk at a given moment in the meta, those factors would be best over-ridden by simply running an altered Hulk list.

Thirdly, yes, saying that winning on turn 2 is the same power level as putting a Matron into play for free on turn 4 is absolutely stupid.

[Aggro_zombies]

Does anyone else get the feeling that Wizards won't banhammer Hulk Flash into oblivion come June 1st? Basically all the top eight players but one said "Don't ban," or "Wait and see," which leads me to believe that Forsythe will wave the tournament coverage around and use it to justify letting HF run amok. A brief aside: even radley could have covered that tournament better. Seriously, day one had some pretty shitty coverage. Although I must say I'm pretty excited about Imperial Seal being legal in the format now.

Anyway, to get back on track: as much as I like MBC and blue-based aggro-control, it's going to be another year at least before Wizards deigns to hold another tournament for us Legacy peons. How are we going to convince them to ban Flash before then? It's probably safe to assume that the format has become more or less permanently altered and HF will just be a fact of life from now on. Sad, but...at least I have the deck built.

[Anusien]

Legacy Championships at GenCon will be before the next BR cycle takes hold, I believe.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Does anyone else get the feeling that Wizards won't banhammer Hulk Flash into oblivion come June 1st? Basically all the top eight players but one said "Don't ban," or "Wait and see," which leads me to believe that Forsythe will wave the tournament coverage around and use it to justify letting HF run amok. A brief aside: even radley could have covered that tournament better. Seriously, day one had some pretty shitty coverage. Although I must say I'm pretty excited about Imperial Seal being legal in the format now.

I don't think they care as much about what the people in the t8 want to play with as what decks make it in the t8.

So I'm still gonna say they'll ban it. Call me an optimist.

[Di]

Which brings us to the second point, the question of Disciple vs Kiki-jiki. It seems to me that in an objective sense the Kiki build is superior because of its compact package and ability to deal with most hate, and its edge over the mirror. The complication is that as that perception enters the public consciousness, the Kiki build becomes worse and worse, since there are many more ways to hate it than the Disciple build. This isn't insignifigant. But it doesn't mean that Hulk is any worse as a combo for that fact. It means that if you're building a non-Hulk deck that hates specifically on the Kiki build, you're probably better off running the Disciple kill in Hulk, since it means a meta-game of decks that are betting on only running into Kiki and his army of angels, which means dead cards against the Disciple kill, which means you go back to the original problem of the non-metagamed Hulk list.

So these two things add up to the conclusion that whatever mitigating factors there are against Hulk at a given moment in the meta, those factors would be best over-ridden by simply running an altered Hulk list.

Also factor in now that the best option for Hulk Flash to do now to fight through hate is by using a transformational sideboard or alternate Protean Hulk plan. For instance, Mr. Nightmare and myself were running Razormane Masticore to just fetch with Benevolent Bodyguard and beat the hell out of any aggro or aggro-control deck. If you saw Gadiel's sideboard, he had Quirion Dryad and Phyrexian Negator. A handful of others had a similar plan to this. When the Flash deck can simply Hulk up a handful of creatures to beat the opponent down, that negates a lot of the hate that would be geared for them. That just makes the deck even more ridiculous and tough to beat.

Sadly thought the mentality of the idiots in the top8 was to not ban Flash, and I pray that Wizards doesn't pay attention to them. Almost all of them weren't traditional Legacy players, so they have no clue about the format and what it does to it.


Also, did anyone else notice that the decklists posted on wizards were all like 55-59 cards, and had incomplete sideboards? What was the deal with that?

[freakish777]

People are asking for T16, here's what I remember:

9 Prosak, Adam J: ?

10 Krempels, Craig C: ?

11 Folinus, Jeffrey S: Rgb Goblins, MD Leyline, SB Krosan Grips, Therapies (Congrats Jeff/Gekoratel, highest placing Source poster on your PT Invite)

12 Neary, Nicholas J: ?

13 Seine, Markus: Something with Crucible in it, Pinder claims to have played against him, ask him for details.

14 Cheon, Paul A: Bigger Fish (see match coverage)

15 Sonne, Jonathan E: Goblins I think (I don't know the speicifics, I remember seeing him play Wasteland and Port, so I assumed he chose the deck he did well with the last time around)

16 Lodovichetti, Dominic: Flash (Happy Gilmore, again, congrats on the PT Invite)


The other flash player I remember being in contention in the last round was:

24 da Rosa, Paulo Vitor D (was playing at table 6 for the T8 birth in the last round, losing to Tietze)

Additionally, Dominic wasn't in contention for a T8 birth if I remember correctly in the final round.

[BreathWeapon]

Did we meet? I'm honestly unsure of who I met because very few people actually told me who they were, or they were people who didn't post but were instead lurkers for the most part. However I'm pretty sure that everyone saw me but didn't know who I was, because I stuck out like a sore thumb. If anyone remembers a short, skinny, incredibly sexy kid wearing sunglasses the entire time, you saw me. And I know what you're thinking and the answer is yes: I do sleep with supermodels.

Perhaps someone should start a thread about the GP experience and who they met and whatnot. It'd greatly help me in realizing who I did and did not meet, and which males outside of Caboose want to sleep with me (I am the new Johnny Depp).



Where are you getting 9 slots from? From what I know, every list I've seen on the internet has run 11 slots for the Disciple kill.

4 Disciple of the Vault and 5 X creatures are the minimum for 20 points of damage, and just because people posted 11 slots on the internet doesn't mean that 11 slots are the standard, which is what Smmenen was alluding to.

Edit: The problem with substituting your MD kill condition for your SB beat down is that you're losing your Summoner's Pact and Pact of Negation, and I'm pretty sure you're going to want to be able to build around those two cards post FS.

@XsockmonkeyX

Hard casting a Disciple of the Vault or shuffling it back into the deck with Brainstorm is a lot less of a hassle than having to deal with the opponent's removal (I never said anything about land)

[Arrowni]

Its still suckass and that won't change in my eyes, we need to go into detail about the graphics of the decks but I sure damn hope there is something to prove!

On more serious statements: I think that the presence of goblins in the top eight proved that goblins is very good and that Hulkflash somewhat retarded the meta a little bit. Fish cannot beat goblins, there were whole techs designed to die to goblins; and that was just the more dominant deck in the last tournament -talk about metagame shifting.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Hard casting a Disciple of the Vault or shuffling it back into the deck with Brainstorm is a lot less of a hassle than having to deal with the opponent's removal

So? Its not like you can just write off the issue. What is your argument here, Im seriously confused. Are talking about cutting slots from the Disciple version or the Kiki vs. Disciple version? Stop being vague plz.


(I never said anything about land)

You mentioned hardcasting the Disciple, I assumed you would need at least 3 mana to go off on 1 turn.


Anyway. This made me sad:

Gadiel Szleifer:

Q: "Do you think Flash needs to be banned in Legacy?"
A: "Who cares?"

[freakish777]

@Anusien's comment of the pros doing well:

And yet half of the T8 was awarded amatuer prizes!

7 of the top 16 were amatuers.




So? Its not like you can just write off the issue. What is your argument here, Im seriously confused. Are talking about cutting slots from the Disciple version or the Kiki vs. Disciple version? Stop being vague plz.



You mentioned hardcasting the Disciple, I assumed you would need at least 3 mana to go off on 1 turn.


Anyway. This made me sad:

Gadiel Szleifer:

Q: "Do you think Flash needs to be banned in Legacy?"
A: "Who cares?"




And this made me happy:

Steve Sadin (winner, playing Flash himself)

Do you think Flash needs to be banned in Legacy?
Yes

[Tacosnape]

Gadiel Szleifer seems like an asshole. Which is sad, because he has my first name stuck squarely in the middle of his last name. But then, I'm an asshole too. Something about the "Leif" combination of letters.

And that bizarre suicide black build is fun as shit. I was very happy to see someone do so well with Sui Black. (And, by the way, Serum Powders for hunting Leylines and Plagues was tech I had posted in both the Sui Black and i think Red Death forums well before the GP.)

Anyhow, congratulations to all the Sourcers who made Day 2 and fought valiantly. One day when gas isn't infinity billion dollars a gallon I'll make one of these large tournaments and meet some of you guys.

[BreathWeapon]

So? Its not like you can just write off the issue. What is your argument here, Im seriously confused. Are talking about cutting slots from the Disciple version or the Kiki vs. Disciple version? Stop being vague plz.



You mentioned hardcasting the Disciple, I assumed you would need at least 3 mana to go off on 1 turn.


Anyway. This made me sad:

Gadiel Szleifer:

Q: "Do you think Flash needs to be banned in Legacy?"
A: "Who cares?"

Vague? We were debating the number of slots that are required in the Disciple of the Vault kill condition, Diablos stated it was 11, because internet decks use 11, and I stated it was 9, because 9 is the minimum to kill an opponent with out a Disciple of the Vault in hand.

No one is writing off the issue, its just a question of evaluating the costs of losing the 2 cards (5 X creatures instead of 7 X creatures) to the number of times that drawing a Disciple of the Vault is an issue, and that's not something that I can do for you.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Hard casting a Disciple of the Vault or shuffling it back into the deck with Brainstorm is a lot less of a hassle than having to deal with the opponent's removal

How do you avoid removal by hard casting the Disciple? If anything does this not open you up to removal? What does this statement mean?

[BreathWeapon]

How do you avoid removal by hard casting the Disciple? If anything does this not open you up to removal? What does this statement mean?

You avoid removal by playing the Disciple of the Vault kill in the first place, not hard casting the Disciple of the Vault. Removal in the sense of Pithing Needle or Tormod's Crypt etc. as well as the creature removal that the opponent wont SB in or will SB out isn't a problem, because there's no guarantee that you'll have to hard cast a Disciple of the Vault. It's not hard to Brainstorm, Merchant Scroll for Brainstorm or Lim Dul's Vault to set up a Brainstorm to get rid of the Disciple of the Vault if you really need to.

[TheAardvark]

Gadiel is an asshole. Of course, that's the cool thing to do, so he will continue to do it.

He is a good player, though.

I still think Flash is too much of an issue to remain unbanned. As I said before and many have said, forcing you into basically 2 colors is bullshit. And forcing mono black to play Unmask MD and fucking Serum Powder in the SB is idiotic beyond belief.

I expect there to be action on June 1st, I am just unsure what they'll do exactly.

[GThompson]

Prosak was UWB Fish. Kremples was sligh, 8 blasts main, spirit guide, Confidant splash. Markus Seine had Scepter, Exalted, Counterspell, Mox Diamond, Crucible, Ancient Tomb, Spell Snare, Fire/Ice.

[xsockmonkeyx]

You avoid removal by playing the Disciple of the Vault kill in the first place.

But you just stated we were not arguing Kiki vs Disciple:


We were debating the number of slots that are required in the Disciple of the Vault kill condition, Diablos stated it was 11, because internet decks use 11, and I stated it was 9, because 9 is the minimum to kill an opponent with out a Disciple of the Vault in hand.


I give up. :mad:

Since we are now arguing Kiki vs Disciple, tutoring for Brainstorm is absolutely horrible and should be avoided if you can. You do this by running the fewest number of slots for your combo(guess which version is better).

[Caboose]

which males outside of Caboose want to sleep with me.

It's fucking true. You looked fabulous compared to the magic nerds surrounding you.

[Puzzle]

But you just stated we were not arguing Kiki vs Disciple:



I give up. :mad:

Since we are now arguing Kiki vs Disciple, tutoring for Brainstorm is absolutely horrible and should be avoided if you can. You do this by running the fewest number of slots for your combo(guess which version is better).You can also dodge removal by using Cabal Therapy, which the Disciple version makes better use of with 10 creatures (i.e. a spare Wall/Marauder).

[Belgareth]

@Anusien's comment of the pros doing well:

And yet half of the T8 was awarded amatuer prizes!

7 of the top 16 were amatuers.


Ye I noticed that :) I was waiting for anusien to notice.

I sadly don't think they will ban flash despite what should happen.
They will like someone mentioned, throw around the (terribly awful) tournament coverage and use it as justification.
I doubt we will see another Legacy GP for a while and I was kind of hoping it would be a European one (and not a repeat of Lucky Flash GP).

[Tao]

9 of Top 16 were Pros, then. And the amateurs started in a far greater number.

So it was still skill-based, even though the answers of the Goblin player in the Top8 interview may suggest something different.

Flash has to be banned, and of course most of the players in the Top8 say something different. They just won a bunch of money in THAT format.

[DeathwingZERO]

Half of the people either picked up Flash and put it into the top 8, or the other half either tested rigorously with or against it. I'd say the mix in the top 8 of "I either picked up this deck and didn't bother testing" to "every gauntlet we tested had a variation of Flash" would put the perspective right where it is. Flash was either a no-brainer win, or a constant DTB in any gauntlet. Seems fair enough to judge it at least degenerate officially now.

Guess we wait for June 1st.

[Jiaozy]

3 decks in top8 really shows it's impact, and people havn't had huge time to work on a list yet, add in future sight and you get a lot more potential.
IMO this is the main point for banning Flash.
A deck that trumps most of the already established meta and puts 3 decks in the T8 despite the VERY short testing time people had (6-8 weeks, tops) and the amount of hate packed in the room (cmon, MD Unmask were seen ONLY in Combo Winter and during Long and Necro domains...) shows how degenerate the deck really is.

If Flash stays, there's no reason to leave others, less degenerate cards banned because on the current banned list we have:
-A 4 mana sorcery that puts enchantment back into play from your GY, if by the time you cast it they don't FoW, pop a Crypt, have won the game and hoping you have something meaningful in the GY (Replenish).
-A 3 mana sorcery that in this format at best will make the one who plays it gain 11 life (Tinker, for Colossus).
-A 5 mana enchantment that does silly tricks with Tolarian Academy. Ooops, no Academy either in this format (Mind Over Matter).
-A 2 mana enchantment that doesn't win you the game when you cast it, but you have to wait a full turn for it to be any good and your opponent MUST have more creatures than you for it to be of any use AND you'd still need at least 2-3 more turns to kill someone. (Oath of Druids).
-A 5 mana enchantment that makes your spells pitch-spells. If it resolves, doesn't get Duress'd Therapy'd away, FoW'd, if you opponent isn't winning in response with Flash and such things.
-A 3 mana, 1/2 that makes lots of mana but will die to basically any removal in the format (Metalworker).

Those cards are banned because deemed too powerful but NONE of these are TWO MANA INSTANTS and none of them WINS THE GAME ON RESOLUTION.

These, IMO, are more than enough reasons to ban Flash ASAP.

[Anarky87]

Did we meet? I'm honestly unsure of who I met because very few people actually told me who they were, or they were people who didn't post but were instead lurkers for the most part. However I'm pretty sure that everyone saw me but didn't know who I was, because I stuck out like a sore thumb. If anyone remembers a short, skinny, incredibly sexy kid wearing sunglasses the entire time, you saw me. And I know what you're thinking and the answer is yes: I do sleep with supermodels.

Not sure about actually meeting formally, but I was over at the table before the trial flights began with Stephon (Noobslayer) and you joked that you were actually Godzilla. I knew what you looked like before I saw you so that helped.


Fish cannot beat goblins

Except my friend who played Fish and went 4-0 and the other friend going 3-1 against Goblins for both days. Other than that, no, I guess Fish can't beat Goblins...

[Tao]

Go away with Tinker and Oath. Tinker is stil way brokener than Flash and Oath has a higher power level, too.

Metalworker is boarderline, but there is really no reason to keep MoM and Replenish on that list.

[Tinefol]

Is there any doubt that say, Dragon deserves a ban, while Flash is not (come on, Dragon haven't even been there for their "look and see what happens" policy).
Or other questionable cards? Like Hermit Druid, Replenish and such. My bet half (well not really half, but a lot) of the B-List would never even see competitive play, just like Doomsday, Regrowth, etc which were originally banned.

[etrigan]

Prosak was UWB Fish. Kremples was sligh, 8 blasts main, spirit guide, Confidant splash. Markus Seine had Scepter, Exalted, Counterspell, Mox Diamond, Crucible, Ancient Tomb, Spell Snare, Fire/Ice.

What the FUCK? If that's not a warped metagame, I dont know what is.

[BreathWeapon]

But you just stated we were not arguing Kiki vs Disciple:



I give up. :mad:

Since we are now arguing Kiki vs Disciple, tutoring for Brainstorm is absolutely horrible and should be avoided if you can. You do this by running the fewest number of slots for your combo(guess which version is better).

The argument started right after Diablos stated that the Kiki-Jiki win condition was superior to the Disciple win condition, because the Disciple win condition required the maximum of 11 slots (instead of the minimum of 9 slots) compared to the Kik--Jiki win condition's standard of 5 slots (instead in the minimum of 3 slots or the maximum of 7 slots).

Lim Dul's Vault sets up Brainstorms into combo and disruption pieces all of the time, so I don't see what the problem is, and Merchant Scroll for Brainstorm isn't bad if Flash is in hand and the deck can't go off with Disciple of the Vault in hand.

The best win condition is the win condition with the best win percentage, Kiki-Jiki presents the opponent with a lot of MD and SB considerations that are going to be a problem to deal with if Flash gets to set in.

[Nightmare]

Please take the debate on the kill mechanism elsewhere.

[Happy Gilmore]

9 of Top 16 were Pros, then. And the amateurs started in a far greater number.

So it was still skill-based, even though the answers of the Goblin player in the Top8 interview may suggest something different.

Flash has to be banned, and of course most of the players in the Top8 say something different. They just won a bunch of money in THAT format.

All the amateurs won the last round. I was 7th in the standings going into the last round, when I won I was still in 7th so I assume every single amateur above me won out. My final record was 11-3-1, one win away from top 8. I made 16th exactly which is the sickness. :cool:

[Timmy, Power Gamer]

If Flash stays, there's no reason to leave others, less degenerate cards banned because on the current banned list we have:
-A 4 mana sorcery that puts enchantment back into play from your GY, if by the time you cast it they don't FoW, pop a Crypt, have won the game and hoping you have something meaningful in the GY (Replenish).
-A 3 mana sorcery that in this format at best will make the one who plays it gain 11 life (Tinker, for Colossus).
-A 5 mana enchantment that does silly tricks with Tolarian Academy. Ooops, no Academy either in this format (Mind Over Matter).
-A 2 mana enchantment that doesn't win you the game when you cast it, but you have to wait a full turn for it to be any good and your opponent MUST have more creatures than you for it to be of any use AND you'd still need at least 2-3 more turns to kill someone. (Oath of Druids).
-A 5 mana enchantment that makes your spells pitch-spells. If it resolves, doesn't get Duress'd Therapy'd away, FoW'd, if you opponent isn't winning in response with Flash and such things.
-A 3 mana, 1/2 that makes lots of mana but will die to basically any removal in the format (Metalworker).

Those cards are banned because deemed too powerful but NONE of these are TWO MANA INSTANTS and none of them WINS THE GAME ON RESOLUTION.

These, IMO, are more than enough reasons to ban Flash ASAP.


Seeing as every deck is running Tormod's Crypt and/or Leyline to combat Flash anyway, why would Will need to stay on the list?

Either Flash will be banned (which I really hope will be the case) or a number of cards should be coming off the list because they are objectively less powerful than flash.

Chris

[TheAardvark]

The best win condition is the win condition with the best win percentage, Kiki-Jiki presents the opponent with a lot of MD and SB considerations that are going to be a problem to deal with if Flash gets to set in.

It must be quite vindicating to see that the 3 builds in the T8 (you know, the 3 with the best win %) played the Disciple version, then!

*ahem*

The format could survive with Flash and Hulk remaining in the environment, but at what cost? A deck that plays 8 red Blasts maindeck is a dangerous paradigm for the format as a whole, and the fact the deck got 10th in a tournament of 883 people terrifies me. There are some people who seem think that decks like that and SBing Serum Powders & Leylines both while maindecking Unmask show a healthy format.

Wow. Just...wow.

EDIT: To whomever mentioned removing Oath Of Druids from the banned list...methinks aggro is in enough trouble as it is right now, and Oath would likely eliminate it as a viable archetype completely.

[goobafish]

Was an awesome event. If anyone saw me around, I'm sure I played against some Source guys. I was playing UGr Thresh with maindeck wastelands, stifles and spell snares. Ended up in 67th place to breakers :(. I lost to the top 8 guy who was playing Plague Slivers, Adrian Sulivan, and I know I played Hammer but I can't remember who won or what he was playing. Cool day.

[Tacosnape]

Gadiel is an asshole. Of course, that's the cool thing to do, so he will continue to do it.

He is a good player, though.

I still think Flash is too much of an issue to remain unbanned. As I said before and many have said, forcing you into basically 2 colors is bullshit. And forcing mono black to play Unmask MD and fucking Serum Powder in the SB is idiotic beyond belief.

I expect there to be action on June 1st, I am just unsure what they'll do exactly.

I'm only an asshole on the forums. I think it's far more cool to be a gracious and respectful opponent in real games.

Unmask MD was pretty tech, and if Flash stays, it'll probably become necessary. But I agree. It's not a healthy format at all right now.

[TheAardvark]

I'm only an asshole on the forums. I think it's far more cool to be a gracious and respectful opponent in real games.

Unmask MD was pretty tech, and if Flash stays, it'll probably become necessary. But I agree. It's not a healthy format at all right now.

See, I don't find you to be an asshole on the forums. Maybe I just miss those posts, but I can't really find any strong evidence supporting your statement.

Regardless, assholes seem to think that being such is cool, for whatever reason. That's just how they roll, so I guess just let them do their thing.

And, although you and I believe the format is unhealthy, we are apparently incorrect. The 8 Blasts maindeck thing was summed up by this over @ SCG:

"Blue is a good color."

That seems to totally disregard the issue, but whatever. I give up.

[Michael Keller]

You know stands out for me more than Hulk Trash secreting the field of 883?

Two decks in the Top 8 had Order of the Ebon hand in them.

<3

[Guy I Don't Know]

Jeff Folinus got 11th!!!

GO GO JEFF

[frogboy]

What the FUCK? If that's not fucking awesome, I dont know what is.

[FoolofaTook]

You know stands out for me more than Hulk Trash secreting the field of 883?

Two decks in the Top 8 had Order of the Ebon hand in them.

<3

Is that surprising given the prevalence of StP in the tournament setting?

Are there better cheap pumpables for black that have protection from white or red?

[scrumdogg]

Given the number of W/U/x decks running around from the Trials & what people predicted for Day 1 - a Black deck with disruption enough for combo & pro-white guys for all the slivers & mages & clerics & knights wandering about was a good metagame call. The decks that dodged the really bad matchups (Goblins, etc) probably did better their more unfortunate counterparts. There were a number of people who made fantastic metagame calls for Columbus and a lot of people who played their best shot, it was a fun tournament...but it was not a healthy balanced tournament. Pro Tour players should not be able to pick up a deck and waltz through an 883 person GP in a format they know little to nothing about. Yet, Flash allowed many of the to do so. WOTC asking them about banning Flash was dumb, it would have been as relevant as asking me what to change about the Pro Tour - neither of us cares much about the others environment nor knows much about it. The two most honest answers were from the champ (who can speak to the power of the deck) & the asshole, I mean Gadiel, who while an arrogant & obnoxious twerp, laid out with brutal & admirable truthfulness the perspective of many attendees who showed up because A) they were pros & it paid for them to do so or B) it was a GP within driving distance.

GP Hulk Flash was interesting, now I would very much like Wizards to give us our format back.

[Magic (from wotc)]

WOTC asking them about banning Flash was dumb, it would have been as relevant as asking me what to change about the Pro Tour - neither of us cares much about the others environment nor knows much about it.


GP Hulk Flash was interesting, now I would very much like Wizards to give us our format back.

QFT

I am very much looking foward to going back to my Thresh deck. On that note congrats to Paul Nicolo and Paul Nicolo for keeping it real.

[BreathWeapon]

It must be quite vindicating to see that the 3 builds in the T8 (you know, the 3 with the best win %) played the Disciple version, then!

*ahem*

The format could survive with Flash and Hulk remaining in the environment, but at what cost? A deck that plays 8 red Blasts maindeck is a dangerous paradigm for the format as a whole, and the fact the deck got 10th in a tournament of 883 people terrifies me. There are some people who seem think that decks like that and SBing Serum Powders & Leylines both while maindecking Unmask show a healthy format.

Wow. Just...wow.

EDIT: To whomever mentioned removing Oath Of Druids from the banned list...methinks aggro is in enough trouble as it is right now, and Oath would likely eliminate it as a viable archetype completely.

One tournament isn't sufficient to determine what is and what isn't the "optimal" design, but it should be obvious that the Kiki-Jiki version is going to be superior to the Disciple version, until people start to add Sudden Shock, Pyrite Spellbomb, Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle or Tormod's Crypt etc. to their MD's in order to take advantage of its inherent vulnerabilities. If that doesn't happen, or Summoner's pact isn't the default tutor for Protean Hulk in the post FS metagame and SBing in a "man plan" like 3 Serra Avengers can still circumvent all/most of the hate, then I concede that it's a non-argument.

We just have to wait and see how much Flash warps the MDs of other decks until we can judge what the best build is, for all I know, people are just going to max out their slots on targeting the win condition and no one will use slots targeting the kill condition.

Edit: Sorry Nightmare, I didn't see your post until I finished mine. I don't think it's too far out of line, considering that people are also arguing whether or not MD Unmaks is a sign of an unhealthy format and you can tie in Sudden Shock and Pyrite Spellbomb to that argument, but I'll avoid arguing the point in the future.

[Michael Keller]

Is that surprising given the prevalence of StP in the tournament setting?

Are there better cheap pumpables for black that have protection from white or red?

LoL. Don't even go there forward slash try that. It is surprising. Before this event, cards like that would be considered ambiguous for a major tournament such as this - especially with combo so prevalent. In a bizarre way, I'm defending the cards' previous goodness, not the "now" factor in that they made an impact on this event.

There aren't - to answer your question - but people will always argue there are better choices no matter what you do. Hats off to those guys for getting cool points.

[Arrowni]

Its still suckass and that won't change in my eyes, we need to go into detail about the graphics of the decks but I sure damn hope there is something to prove!

On more serious statements: I think that the presence of goblins in the top eight proved that goblins is very good and that Hulkflash somewhat retarded the meta a little bit. Fish cannot beat goblins, there were whole techs designed to die to goblins; and that was just the more dominant deck in the last tournament -talk about metagame shifting.

[GAUDARD]

I came, I conquered nothing, and saw several of you. Always a pleasure to speak with Gearhart, happens to be an alphabetically impossible not to. Noobslayer was hollered at on Sunday night while a friend of mine was playing type 2 against (the guy with the u/b deck).

Sorry I've forgotten names. I was wearing a black hoodie, black jeans, and unshaven because it's my day off and I'm damn well not gonna!

[Smmenen]

Then I plan on doing so. I, along with a majority of the people who've tested both versions of the deck, have found that the consistency and resiliency of the Kiki-Jiki version greatly outweights the fact that it is potentially a disruptable combo.


Consistency? Yes. Resliency? Are you out of your goard? The Kiki-Jiki combo is the opposite of resilience.

A) it requires an attack step
B) Disciple is state based kill
C) The Disciple Kill is resilient to 99% of the things that disrupt the Kiki Kill.

Your claim that Kik is *both* more powerful and more resilient is flat our wrong. It is more powerful yes, but less resilient by definition. You aren't very smart for making such a claim.




But, I am rather interested in finding the measure of my ignorance because I see 11 slots in the deck that do not do the following:

- Find Flash, Protean Hulk, or any other card for that matter.
- Look at the opponent's hand and discard a card.
- Counter target spell.
- Add mana to the mana pool.

I haven't personally seen your list so I can't technically say your list is running 4 Disciple of the Vault and 7 0cc artifact creatures, but is rather an assumption based on the general principles of the Disciple stack. I actually look forward to seeing your attempt at proving me wrong.



Article is up. You are proven quite wrong indeed. I look forward to your reply.

As an aside, most people (including my teammate Pat Chapin) thought that the Kiki Kill was superior. What you and most others miss is that you are working with knowledge you had BEFORE Kiki was developed. When I went back to Disciple, it was in a different deck. Different operational principles. You can't use the same analysis of Disciple kill as you did before Kiki was developed to understand with great detail how Disciple works now. The early lists reflected a rudimentary understanding of Flash.

I may just write a really detailed article on the deck next week going over ALL of the options from LIving Wish to Sylvan Library to LDV to Diabolic Visions, etc, etc.



Also, I did not call you an idiot. I disagree with many of the things you say regarding this format, but I at least give your opinions thought and respect. As someone pointed out already, I was referring to the person posting.

Perhaps you should post more carefully, or better yet, keep such rude comments to yourself. Here's a piece of advice: don't say things to people on internet message boards you wouldn't say to them in person. If I were talking to you in person I'd be excoriating you right now.

[outsideangel]

Smemmen: Care to briefly summarize your arguments for the Disciple version, along with maybe a deck list, for those of us who don't care enough about other formats to buy Premium access?

I'm particularly interested in hearing why the 'inferior' Kiki-Jiki version of the deck did so much better than the 'superior' Disciple version.


Oh, and before I forget...

Here's a piece of advice: don't try to moderate people on the internet message boards they moderate. I imagine if Diablos were talking to you in person he'd be laughing at your excoriations.

[Machinus]

WOTC asking them about banning Flash was dumb

Where is this?

[Timmy, Power Gamer]

Scroll down a bit; it is after the blogs, standings, etc.:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gpcol07/welcome

[Di]

Your claim that Kik is *both* more powerful and more resilient is flat our wrong. It is more powerful yes, but less resilient by definition.

By definition, the win condition is less resilient. However I believe this is not the case for the deck as a whole. Fewer combo slots required to win gives the deck additional protection. This allows to fight through whatever you see easier. I suppose we just have opposing views concerning the meaning of resiliency and how it applies to a deck.


Article is up. You are proven quite wrong indeed. I look forward to your reply.

As I do not have a SCG Premium account, you can expect an answer to this in 3 months. Unfortunately my response won't be very worthwhile as the deck will be banned by then.


As an aside, most people (including my teammate Pat Chapin) thought that the Kiki Kill was superior. What you and most others miss is that you are working with knowledge you had BEFORE Kiki was developed. When I went back to Disciple, it was in a different deck. Different operational principles. You can't use the same analysis of Disciple kill as you did before Kiki was developed to understand with great detail how Disciple works now. The early lists reflected a rudimentary understanding of Flash.

You keep saying this as if I haven't had tested both versions of the deck up to the GP. I greatly dislike the fact that you assume I base all my accusations on decklists that are bad. Do you also believe I think Gemstone Caverns is good in the deck too? I've done my fair share of testing with the Disciple kill. In all honesty, my team had been stuck between the two just days before the event because of the advantages and disadvantages of both. And we decided about the day before to stick with the Kiki-Jiki version. It just had advantages that the Disciple kill couldn't compete with. Whenever I get a chance to read that article in God knows how long, maybe I'll see why the hell you're trying to make a case for it.


Perhaps you should post more carefully, or better yet, keep such rude comments to yourself. Here's a piece of advice: don't say things to people on internet message boards you wouldn't say to them in person. If I were talking to you in person I'd be excoriating you right now.

Or, perhaps you could read more carefully instead of taking every negative thing said as an offense towards you. And please, don't talk down to me and give me that advice. If you believe I wouldn't call that person out irl for believing the Kiki-Jiki version is "suckass", then you apparently have me confused with someone else. If I call you an asshole on here, then you can expect me to call you an asshole to your face. However I have not, and most likely will not.

While you're at it, you can tell your posterboy or whoever that was cheering you on to stop referring to the Kiki-Jiki version as "suckass." You people are free to have your opinions, but results don't lie. Out of curiosity, how many Disciple versions were in day 2 compared to Kiki-Jiki versions?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Consistency? Yes. Resliency? Are you out of your goard? The Kiki-Jiki combo is the opposite of resilience.

A) it requires an attack step
B) Disciple is state based kill
C) The Disciple Kill is resilient to 99% of the things that disrupt the Kiki Kill.

Your claim that Kik is *both* more powerful and more resilient is flat our wrong. It is more powerful yes, but less resilient by definition. You aren't very smart for making such a claim.

Kill condition =/= deck.

The deck is more resilient because it has more room for answers and card draw. This is why the Kiki Kill performed much, much better than the Disciple kill.


Article is up. You are proven quite wrong indeed. I look forward to your reply.

I know that this is how SCG writers tend to operate, but I'm going to point out that a premium article going up making a claim doesn't actually mean that that claim is inherently true.


As an aside, most people (including my teammate Pat Chapin) thought that the Kiki Kill was superior. What you and most others miss is that you are working with knowledge you had BEFORE Kiki was developed. When I went back to Disciple, it was in a different deck. Different operational principles. You can't use the same analysis of Disciple kill as you did before Kiki was developed to understand with great detail how Disciple works now. The early lists reflected a rudimentary understanding of Flash.

What framework for a deck could conceivably be made worse by saving five extra slots for more card drawing or disruption/protection?


Perhaps you should post more carefully, or better yet, keep such rude comments to yourself. Here's a piece of advice: don't say things to people on internet message boards you wouldn't say to them in person. If I were talking to you in person I'd be excoriating you right now.

You do remember who you are, and how you act in person, right? I don't think you have any right to criticize others for their lack of politesse. You're like David Gearhart sans the whimsy.

[Largent]

Consistency? Yes. Resliency? Are you out of your goard? The Kiki-Jiki combo is the opposite of resilience.

A) it requires an attack step
B) Disciple is state based kill
C) The Disciple Kill is resilient to 99% of the things that disrupt the Kiki Kill.

Your claim that Kik is *both* more powerful and more resilient is flat our wrong. It is more powerful yes, but less resilient by definition. You aren't very smart for making such a claim.

Article is up. You are proven quite wrong indeed. I look forward to your reply.


As a goblins player (I was playing the same list as team mate jeff folinus) with a fairly flash-hating build I am going to have to agree with steve on this one, that the disciple build is more resilient. the disciple build is MUCH scarier than the kiki build, the kiki build is very easy to disrupt. i simply sit on leyline and wait for them to go off, if i have any combination of 2x mogg, fanatic, pyrokinesis, or gempalm incinerator I can brick the combo and leave the flash player with his/her pants down. against the disciple build they bounce leyline and cast flash and I die.

I realize this is a semi narrow outlook but the same principles apply to other cards that can disrupt the combo like STP etc.

[Jak]

It really depends where you want to take the deck. Turn 1 win fast or the controlling one. So far the Kiki one has performed far better, but I think lists need tweaking and testing to find the "best" one.

I prefer the Disciple kill just because it is more resilient in the sense less hate cards affect than the Kiki. It can go off at instant speed and with the pacts it is just fast.

I just hope it gets banned because I want to go back to making decks other than hate or flash.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

At the moment the Kiki build is clearly superior, but that may change with the Pacts. I think that might make the faster builds about as viable as the more controlling ones. There's something to be said for twelve free counters... but then, there's also something to be said for not immediately losing if they out counter or fizzle you.

[powergamer1003]

Does this mater, there is a high likelyhood that this will ge banned.

[Sims]

Does this matter? There is a high likely hood that this will get banned.

Sorry, had to.

In a way I do think it matters, as we still have until the 1st to play with and against the deck and various hate... Now, that might not be a big deal as I don't believe there are any tournaments aside from weekly locals scheduled between now and the 1st, however... Just because it is a "likely" ban does not mean that it WILL be banned. I think that it should be, as I hate seeing metagame warp ala Unmask MD in Black Aggro... However, this GP has made it appear to many people that it's not the sky about to crush Legacy and that the deck will be fine. This might be true, if it weren't for Future Sight now being legal.

Ultimately, I'm afraid that the DCI will say that the deck didn't show sufficient evidence to be banned and that, despite future sight and it's pacts, they decide to leave it until they get sufficient proof at the next GP or at Worlds. That would just suck.


So, yeah... Work out your preference, figure out which kill you like and try to find ways to hate it because it's here until the 1st at least, and possibly longer.

[Puzzle]

Although Smennen seems to take it a bit too personally, I think most people's views that K-J is the better kill is flawed. I don't have access to Premium, so I don't know Smennen's points but here are my views anyway :

1. The K-J kill went further in the tournament but without knowing how many Disciple kills were played in comparison to K-J's, that point is a bit moot.

2. I think the K-J kill has an advantage when it sticks to a minimal number of slots but if you go with 7, you're not far from the Disciple's 10 and the increased sensitivity to disruption makes it less attractive all of a sudden, as the 3 slots you freed are unlikely to circumvent all the additional openings to disruption you give your opponent.

3. The Disciple kill can be performed in response to someone winning.

4. The K-J kill can be foiled by Gobs, which will always represent a decent portion of the field.

5. You can use a X-creature to flashback Cabal Therapy.

6. Meta-wise at GP Columbus, the hype was on the K-J, meaning most of the hate was dodged by the Disciple kill.

I wouldn't go as far as Smennen in saying the Disciple kill is better in absolutes but both have merits and I wouldn't classify the K-J kill as better either. For me, it boils down a lot to a meta call.

[Nihil Credo]

Just trying to set up a meeting point: can we all agree that

1) Playing the Disciple kill is better against Goblins and randomness
2) Playing the Kiki kill is better against Fish and Thresh?

[Puzzle]

Just trying to set up a meeting point: can we all agree that

1) Playing the Disciple kill is better against Goblins and randomness
2) Playing the Kiki kill is better against Fish and Thresh?Way to encourage me to make elaborate posts. :mad:

[DrJones]

I cannot read the article either, but some info can be recovered from the Starcity forums. It seems that the disciple kill cannot pack the counterbalance + sensei's divining top combo for some reason, which I think was one of the reasons one of the kiki-jiki decks made T8.

[Zilla]

2) Playing the Kiki kill is better against Fish and Thresh?
Probably the most important point is that it's better in the mirror, at least pre-FS.

[Nihil Credo]

Probably the most important point is that it's better in the mirror, at least pre-FS.
Debatable. If you play Disciple against a Kiki deck, you do have a bit less disruption, but you can threaten to win at instant speed. With a Kiki build, even if you make infinite Karmic Guide in response to their Flash, you only win if it is their turn. (If your opponent has a Kiki-Jiki in play before you, you can't go off without a second Flash, right? I think so, but I might have missed some Body Snatcher tricks). Also, see the Smmenen vs. Deep6er match - Smmenen won a game because Deep6er's maindeck Wipe Away was dead.

[Smmenen]

I was responding to several different claims. One was a rant-like tirade that I was insane (and another person was an idiot) for claiming that the Disciple kill was superior. That claim essentially said that the Kiki kill was more powerful and more resilient. I said that it was not more resilient.

How does that become translating into the claim that I think the Disciple kill is 100% better in all times in all circumstances, as some here are suggesting?

I never made such a claim. My view is that Kiki kill is better, objectively speaking, because it plays fewer cards. I played Disciple based on a *metagame* call. I do believe, however, that for the GP metagame, Disciple kill was better, ceteris peribus – that is, holding everything else equal. But other things are rarely equal.

Billy Morenos/Steve Sadin’s deck is not really amenable to using the Disciple. You have too many X spells that don’t work with Counterbalance and you need those slots to set up your disruption package. I do think most Flash players would have had a better chance if they had come to the same conclusion I did. I can’t even guess at how much my metagame call affected my matches, but PIthing Needle was played on lands at least twice against me, if that is any indication.

Second, I really have to object to IBA’s comment here:

” You do remember who you are, and how you act in person, right? I don't think you have any right to criticize others for their lack of politesse. You're like David Gearhart sans the whimsy.”

Please tell me a single instance were I was not respectful of another person. How was I rude? I was very tired and still recovering from a cold, but I don’t recall saying anything or doing anything I wouldn’t do at a dinner party. And honestly, how am I anything even like David Gearhart. Our personalities couldn’t be more different. You claimed in another thread that I was a jerk, in the “fine meandeck tradition.” What did I do or say to you that supports that?

[Peter_Rotten]

I was just about to edit out IBA/Smenny crankiness and then reconsidered since it would take too much of my time. I wish I caught it earlier.

Let's play nice now. Both of you leave the personal attacks out of the responses. And don't bother with the "he started it" BS.

We are having a pretty good discussion about the two builds and which was a better meta call. Let's return to that.

[FoolofaTook]

At the moment the Kiki build is clearly superior, but that may change with the Pacts. I think that might make the faster builds about as viable as the more controlling ones. There's something to be said for twelve free counters... but then, there's also something to be said for not immediately losing if they out counter or fizzle you.

Pact of Negation will still be safe in that scenario because if it's countered you do not have to fulfill the other conditions on it. Summoner's Pact will be very risky though.

Somebody is going to come up with a list that has close to the speed of the Disciple deck and close to the resiliency of the Kiki build. That's going to be the breaker of the format, just like Balance broke the original format a decade ago.

[Lego]

In a way I do think it matters, as we still have until the 1st to play with and against the deck

Actually, even if they ban it, we have until June 20th (when the bans take effect) to play with and against it.

[Ewokslayer]

Pact of Negation will still be safe in that scenario because if it's countered you do not have to fulfill the other conditions on it. Summoner's Pact will be very risky though.

I assume you are casting Pact of Negation to protect Flash.
If so why wouldn't your opponent just let Pact of Negation resolve and then counter the Flash again?

[dre4m]

Actually, even if they ban it, we have until June 20th (when the bans take effect) to play with and against it.

Wow! June 20th is my birthday! So Flash will officially become banned the day I turn twenty! What a birthday present!! As far as better win conditions go, I'm sure there are some obscure cards with broken CIP/LP effects that haven't been explored yet, but having to keep the total CMC under six is quite distressing.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I assume you are casting Pact of Negation to protect Flash.
If so why wouldn't your opponent just let Pact of Negation resolve and then counter the Flash again?

Quite. There's no reason to ever counter a Pact. I think Summoner's Pact in particular is terrible. Pact of Negation is probably strong enough to run despite the risk, but it's certainly a high gamble.

I can see the reasoning behind the metacall of the Disciple build, but to be honest, I didn't see that much actual hate that only hit one version. I don't disagree that if you expect certain amounts of hate, that the Disciple kill is better, but apparently we do all agree that the Kiki kill is better in a vacuum (or that is, the deck with the Kiki kill is better in a vacuum).

[Nightmare]

Quite. There's no reason to ever counter a Pact.If you use Nix, there is.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Okay. If you're running good cards, there's no reason to ever counter a Pact.

[outsideangel]

I played Disciple based on a *metagame* call. I do believe, however, that for the GP metagame, Disciple kill was better, ceteris peribus – that is, holding everything else equal. But other things are rarely equal.

The results of the GP would seem to disagree with your assessment. The Kiki version placed highly, and the Disciple version did not. This indicates that the version of the deck with the best disruption/control package is the one we want to be playing.

Now, you can make the case that it was matchups, or luck, or whatever, but you're going to have to make an awfully strong case to persuade anyone to ignore the concrete tournament results. Trying to back the claim that the deck that won was the incorrect metagame call, you've got your work cut out for you.

[Ewokslayer]

Using the GP Results to determine if Disciples < Kiki is a bit difficult because
1) I don't think there were many decks running the Disciple kill (If fact I only saw Steve running it to a very nice 21st place finish.)
2) Byes screw up the entire thing, a number of people made Day 2 by going about 50/50 in the rounds they actually had to play.

I did run into a number of cards that were only good against the Kiki Version but those hate cards never seemed to matter.
It was mostly the good hate cards that were issues (Force of Will, Meddling Mage, Stifle)

I kinda wish I had played the disciple version.

Though that is probably because I would have called the deck Transformers.

[Smmenen]

The results of the GP would seem to disagree with your assessment. The Kiki version placed highly, and the Disciple version did not. This indicates that the version of the deck with the best disruption/control package is the one we want to be playing.

Now, you can make the case that it was matchups, or luck, or whatever, but you're going to have to make an awfully strong case to persuade anyone to ignore the concrete tournament results. Trying to back the claim that the deck that won was the incorrect metagame call, you've got your work cut out for you.

As to you being disrespectful of others....well, I have some memories from playing Vintage years ago. I'll leave it there, so as not to derail further.

First of all, let me say at the outset that I am always pleased to know that people who respond to what I have previously written have actually read what I wrote.

This post above is a cystal clear, excellent example of someone has not actually read my previous postings in this thread.

Consider:

1) They claim that I claim I was claiming that Kiki was an incorrect metagame call.
“Trying to back the claim that the deck that won was the incorrect metagame call, you've got your work cut out for you.”

This is completely untrue. I did not claim that. I claimed that Disciple was a metagame call. But the statement that Disciple was a metagame call is not logically equivalent to the statement that kiki was the incorrect metagame call.

This goes again, once more, to something I have already explained ad nauseum in this thread:

2) I did not, nor did I ever, claim that Kiki was inferior.

This is an instance in which people need to read before they type. I know that it is very easy to type things when you are sitting in front of your computer. But reading first helps, strangely enough.

To refresh your apparently short recollection rather than rehash what I’ve already said:





I never made such a claim. My view is that Kiki kill is better, objectively speaking, because it plays fewer cards. I played Disciple based on a *metagame* call. I do believe, however, that for the GP metagame, Disciple kill was better, ceteris peribus – that is, holding everything else equal. But other things are rarely equal.

Billy Morenos/Steve Sadin’s deck is not really amenable to using the Disciple. You have too many X spells that don’t work with Counterbalance and you need those slots to set up your disruption package. I do think most Flash players would have had a better chance if they had come to the same conclusion I did. ?

The entire thrust of your post is already addressed by what I said in the above post. You said that the fact that Kiki kill performed better (i.e. Sadin’s deck) contradicts my claims.
You apparently ignored reading what I wrote or read and didn’t understand what I wrote.

It’s a common fallacy, but you just exemplified the Straw Man fallacy. You made an assertion you attribute to me that I in fact never said. Look above: I said “Most players” would have had a better chance had they come to the same conclusion I did. Most players, note, were not running Billy Moreno’s innovative Top list.

Finally, this is an entirely moot discussion. Flash will be banned on June 1st (effective July 1st).

However, it is extremely frustrating to have to constantly deal with things that people could figure out if they would just read. How hard is it to read what I wrote instead of just assuming that you know what I wrote?

[frogboy]

Now, you can make the case that it was matchups, or luck, or whatever, but you're going to have to make an awfully strong case to persuade anyone to ignore the concrete tournament results.

lol, no.

1. insane variance
2. sample size

[CalebD]

Using the GP Results to determine if Disciples < Kiki is a bit difficult because
1) I don't think there were many decks running the Disciple kill (If fact I only saw Steve running it to a very nice 21st place finish.)
2) Byes screw up the entire thing, a number of people made Day 2 by going about 50/50 in the rounds they actually had to play.

I did run into a number of cards that were only good against the Kiki Version but those hate cards never seemed to matter.
It was mostly the good hate cards that were issues (Force of Will, Meddling Mage, Stifle)

I kinda wish I had played the disciple version.

Though that is probably because I would have called the deck Transformers.

I played against Steve in the GPTs the day before. We went 1-1, and then I lost the third round to drawing dead for about 8 or so turns. Had he been using the kiki-jiki version I'm reasonably sure I would've beat him. His list was solid, and his playskill equally so.

The list Gadiel was using was incredibly solid too, had I seen something like it before the tournament I would've played flash.

Adrian Sullivan did reasonably well with his incredibly strong anti flash deck, but his list had a harder time against the disciple version. His list was another that I would've loved to play at the GP.

[Peter_Rotten]

However, it is extremely frustrating to have to constantly deal with things that people could figure out if they would just read. How hard is it to read what I wrote instead of just assuming that you know what I wrote?

I have to agree here. If you are going to disagree with someone, fine. But please make sure that you are disagreeing with what the person is actually claiming.

I think that Steve laid out his views rather clearly.

Now, I'm going to be a bit of a hypocrite.


Flash will be banned on June 1st

Personally I hope that this is true, but you seem rather sure that it will happen. What makes you so sure? (And I'm much too lazy to review this thread, SCG and TMD threads, and the possible three other threads where you may have already posted your opinion about the banning; so forgive me if you already have done so.)

And lastly, a little tangent: If Flash is banned on June 1st, when does the ban truly take place? I've seen people say June 20th but now I see July 1st. Which is it?

[CalebD]

I can't speak for anyone elses reasoning, but I'm sure flash will be banned because of the following two things:

1-The judges don't seem to think Wizards will re-errata Flash, and I don't either. What's the point of going through everything, taking off the power errata, then realizing it's too powerful and putting it back on? Wizards has to know that taking off POWER errata makes things more POWERful.

2-Wizards said they would do something. If they aren't doing a re-errata for Flash, what is left? A banning.

[Smmenen]

Bannings and restrictions take effect on the 1st (in this case, july 1st). New sets become legal on the 20th of the month following the release.

I think it will be banned because I know members of R&D and I know how they think (not because of any inside info). Flash is much better than alot of cards on the Legacy banned list.

[outsideangel]

Honestly, Steve, now I have absolutely no idea what you're saying. What I think you're on about:

1) The Disciple kill is better
2) Decks with the Kiki kill are better because they have more disruption
3) The Disciple kill was the correct choice for the GP, but the Kiki kill was also the correct choice.

One and two are what most everyone has been saying. Three doesn't make a lot of sense to me, in that, if option A is the right choice, then usually option B is the wrong choice.

I know you're frustrated, Steve, having to explain such apparently simple and self-evident concepts, especially to people like me, who either can't or won't read anything you write ever, so maybe, somebody like P_R could explain it to me instead?

[Peter_Rotten]

More decks prepared to battle the Kiki-kill. Steve ran the Disciple kill because he guessed that less people would prepare for it and most of the hate would be aimed at Kiki. I think that that is rather smart meta-gaming.

If we erased all metagame factors, Kiki would always (or usually) be the better deck to run since it requires less card slots and allows those slots to be used for protection (or whatever else is needed).

I thought that his points were rather simple, but maybe I have misunderstood them.

[Hoojo]

Honestly, Steve, now I have absolutely no idea what you're saying. What I think you're on about:

1) The Disciple kill is better
2) Decks with the Kiki kill are better because they have more disruption
3) The Disciple kill was the correct choice for the GP, but the Kiki kill was also the correct choice.

One and two are what most everyone has been saying. Three doesn't make a lot of sense to me, in that, if option A is the right choice, then usually option B is the wrong choice.

I know you're frustrated, Steve, having to explain such apparently simple and self-evident concepts, especially to people like me, who either can't or won't read anything you write ever, so maybe, somebody like P_R could explain it to me instead?

I think the problem is you are looking for an absolute answer. There isn't one. The way I read it, Smmenen chose the Disciple kill because he felt it was the best choice for him, and I understand his reasoning based on the speed of the deck and other nuances detailed previously. He also felt the Kiki-Jiki kill would be a good choice because the amount of disruption you can pack and it's kill requires less cards. It's all opinionated and playstill/style and, most importantly, metagame driven. Your asking him to sign his name to a diffinitive answer; He isn't, nor should anyone, based on the idea that everyone plays differently, and every tournament can be different. Clear enough?