[Article] Flashy Finish

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mf147



I must say that I was surprised by the lack of Hulk Flash decks in the Top 8 of Grand Prix–Columbus 2007. I know that there were three copies, more than any other archetype (there were five singletons), but I thought that if the metagame made any sense that there would be eight Flash decks in the Top 8—It's that much better than every other deck in the formatl


Oh, definitely (That Flash will be banned). Even without Future Sight it is too good. People who thought anything else before this tournament had just not seen tuned Flash decks. If you re-ran Columbus 20 times, Gadiel and I would have 12 Top 8s each, Billy would have 10, and Julian would have 2-4.

Thank fucking God. It's like a breath of fresh air. For a while it felt like I was in a fucking madhouse with all the idiots running around talking about how fair Flash was and that it's just another combo deck.

[Slay]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mf147






Thank fucking God. It's like a breath of fresh air. For a while it felt like I was in a fucking madhouse with all the idiots running around talking about how fair Flash was and that it's just another combo deck.

That may be true, but the Flash mirror is an awful lot of fun to play all day, even if it means the tournament takes about five minutes to finish.
-Slay

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Do you really think so? I hated the mirror. It was simply dumb, and a headache I didn't need when I was already under stress. Maybe that's just because I got curbstomped both times.

[Slay]

I do. You don't really need to try, or make difficult decisions. Your hand is either better than your opponent's or it isn't, and you mull till you get it that way. It's a refreshing minigame after fighting through aggro-control all day.
-Slay

[Nydaeli]

It's kind of awesome to have all these articles about Flash popping up everywhere. (Two have been published today, in addition to the Unlocking Legacy column.) Even if they say substantively the same things, most of which I and most of our community already knew, it really brings home how much publicity Flash has given the Legacy format.

[Pinder]

This article made me breathe a sigh of relief. At least people are starting to recognize how unfair Flash is.

While certainly not unbeatable, the fact that it managed to make 3 top 8 appearances as well as winning the damn GP through all that hate is nothing to sneeze at. Even if the deck can be beaten, the format it takes to do that just isn't that fun.

[Tacosnape]

Remind me to hug Mike Flores in the odd chance I ever meet him. And buy him a full meal at Taco Bell.

[Parcher]

Do you really think so? I hated the mirror. It was simply dumb, and a headache I didn't need when I was already under stress. Maybe that's just because I got curbstomped both times.

Ask URABAHN about his and Mad Zur's Flash mirror draw at Rockville. It was the only time I've seen Gearhart speechless.

[Caboose]

And buy him a full meal at Taco Bell.

He would probably spend an hour talking about how the value menu is perfectly balanced, only to feel that he didn't get enough food for his money at the end of the meal. :frown:

[Phantom]

Thank fucking God.


Word.

[Hanni]

Players were calling decks like Max's "Fish," but it is actually more reminiscent of Ben Rubin's Dump Truck than the combo killer Nicholas Lebarre took to the Pro Tour–Rome Finals (where he nevertheless lost to the title to 800 pound gorilla Academy). Max's deck combines some of the format's best cards in a package that was billed to beat Hulk Flash; Meddling Mage, Force of Will, Swords to Plowshares, Stifle, and Daze, combined with a reasonable clock, are all strong disruptive elements. Like Bill, Max could sideboard in Leyline of the Void for a quick and highly effective measure against the core Hulk Flash combination.



I'm glad Mike Flores is supporting the Flash ban, but I really didn't like this bit at all. This pretty much pissed me off. I know Mike Flores is a Pro and everything... but how the hell can he say what is and isn't Fish in Legacy? That's what it is... it's frickin Fish. Additionally, I don't like how he says that the deck was built speficially to beat Hulk Flash. The deck was built as a general disruptive aggro/control deck. Grrrrrrrr...

I just wanted to get that off my chest. Carry on.

[Aggro_zombies]

Whaaaaaaat is this? A magicthegathering.com article on Legacy that is actually (for the most part) factually correct? Nice. I'm a bit sad he didn't mention the surprise unbanning of Imperial Seal, though. Although, since Flores isn't technically a WoTC employee, I guess only Brian David-Marshall would know.

[Citrus-God]

I'm glad Mike Flores is supporting the Flash ban, but I really didn't like this bit at all. This pretty much pissed me off. I know Mike Flores is a Pro and everything... but how the hell can he say what is and isn't Fish in Legacy? That's what it is... it's frickin Fish. Additionally, I don't like how he says that the deck was built speficially to beat Hulk Flash. The deck was built as a general disruptive aggro/control deck. Grrrrrrrr...

I just wanted to get that off my chest. Carry on.

He also said the deck is actually based off of Ben Rubin's Dump Truck. I would like to say semi-true. Duress + Meddling Mage + card drawing Wizard kinda shares that element with your deck. Only difference is that they run Silver Bullets and proactive disruption than the standard Fish, while you run more reactive disruption.

[Nightmare]

I'm glad Mike Flores is supporting the Flash ban, but I really didn't like this bit at all. This pretty much pissed me off. I know Mike Flores is a Pro and everything... but how the hell can he say what is and isn't Fish in Legacy? That's what it is... it's frickin Fish. Additionally, I don't like how he says that the deck was built speficially to beat Hulk Flash. The deck was built as a general disruptive aggro/control deck. Grrrrrrrr...

I just wanted to get that off my chest. Carry on.People also say you invented UBw Fish. You win some, you lose some.

[Ewokslayer]

Ask URABAHN about his and Mad Zur's Flash mirror draw at Rockville. It was the only time I've seen Gearhart speechless.

How the hell does the Flash Mirror result in a draw?


Do you really think so? I hated the mirror. It was simply dumb, and a headache I didn't need when I was already under stress. Maybe that's just because I got curbstomped both times.
Wasn't your build designed with the mirror in mind?

I personally didn't mind the mirror as I beat it three times.



I do. You don't really need to try, or make difficult decisions. Your hand is either better than your opponent's or it isn't, and you mull till you get it that way. It's a refreshing minigame after fighting through aggro-control all day.
-Slay
Mulling in the mirror isn't very good. Daze, Force, and Duress are key. Or having the nuts draw. That always helps too.


People also say you invented UBw Fish. You win some, you lose some.
And if you were playing fish chances are you were losing.

[Obfuscate Freely]

My best memory of the mirror match comes from being savaged by Ben Lundquist in Columbus.

Game one, I went for the kill, with Force backup, on turn 2 or 3. Ben responded by playing Flash. I thought about it, but decided that I had to Force it. He then pointed a Force of his own at my Flash.

The bluff bought him enough time to assemble his own combo off of a lucky Vault a few turns later.

The second game was even better. An early Duress left Ben with a Mystical Tutor and two Dazes, while I had the combo, Force protection, and an Extirpate, but only three lands. At some point, I played a mainphase Brainstorm to dig for land and more protection, and he responded with a Daze.

I paid one, and he Dazed again. I paid the one again, tapping out. He then responded further by Tutoring for Flash, Brainstorming, and going off through my Force of Will with my Brainstorm still on the stack.


I agree with Jack. It's nice to see an article that finally gives Flash the credit it deserves. Flores even (correctly) identifies the deck as absurd before Future Sight.

[Machinus]

Flash was dumb. Good thing it's over.

I never got the chance to play the mirror at the GP : /

[Cait_Sith]

He would probably spend an hour talking about how the value menu is perfectly balanced, only to feel that he didn't get enough food for his money at the end of the meal. :frown:

That isn't possible. Taco Bell is like paying 0 for a draw 7.

[Slay]

That isn't possible. Taco Bell is like paying 0 for a draw 7.

Yeah but a few hours later you discard your hand.
-Slay

[Cait_Sith]

Yeah but a few hours later you discard your hand.
-Slay

Never had that happen to me. And I work there.

[Finn]

If you all did not read the posts following the article, you probably should. There are a couple of good posts.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I'm glad Mike Flores is supporting the Flash ban, but I really didn't like this bit at all. This pretty much pissed me off. I know Mike Flores is a Pro and everything... but how the hell can he say what is and isn't Fish in Legacy? That's what it is... it's frickin Fish. Additionally, I don't like how he says that the deck was built speficially to beat Hulk Flash. The deck was built as a general disruptive aggro/control deck. Grrrrrrrr...

I just wanted to get that off my chest. Carry on.

It has fat and equipment and no Standstills.

I think Flores is right. People want to call every aggro-control deck that doesn't have a creature theme(Slivers or Thresh(ironic, considering the origins of "Fish")) "Fish", but that's not what it is.



Thank God for Flores and Sadin. Seriously. They deserve free Unicorn Showers for life.

[Illissius]

Heh. I suppose I was the only one bothered by Flores not actually knowing how to properly combo off with Body Snatcher and a protection creature when he's writing a fricking article about it.

[KillemallCFH]

Heh. I suppose I was the only one bothered by Flores not actually knowing how to properly combo off with Body Snatcher and a protection creature when he's writing a fricking article about it.
Getting back to the actual article, I did not like how Flores explained the KG/KJ kill. He explained it as as if people were not using Body Snatcher, but every list was running it, which might have left some people confused.
(For those who don't know, though I'm sure you all do, you get Body Snatcher, Carrion Feeder and Benevolent Bodyguard/Sylvan Safekeeper, sac the Body snatcher with its CIP ability on the stack, get back Hulk, sac hulk, get Karmic Guide, bring back Hulk with KG's CIP ability, sac Hulk, get Kiki, proceed to make infinite Karmic Guide tokens. [The reason to do it this way is so that you can have protection from burn/StP/etc. The way Flores described it, i.e. getting CF/KG first and then getting KJ/BB, makes it so a well timed Gempalm Incinerator or other removal on the CF can end your combo.])

[Tom LaPille]

A) Hanni, the fish decks that did well at the grand prix indeed were essentially updates of Dump Truck. Your deck is too. I don't understand why this is a problem.

B) Bodyguard still doesn't stop you from getting stopped by red things if you actually try to win that turn. When you activate Kiki targeting Karmic Guide and then sacrifice Kiki to the Feeder, they can respond by burning your Guide. If you give it pro-red or untargetability now, then you are dead becuase the Kiki activation is countered. Bodyguard only stops Swords.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It also stops Chain of Vapor and Contagion, which just about covers most forms of removal that saw play in the top 8. And a second Body Snatcher would make it much better against red, although Goblins is still a fairly easy matchup.

[MattH]

I'm glad Mike Flores is supporting the Flash ban, but I really didn't like this bit at all. This pretty much pissed me off. I know Mike Flores is a Pro and everything... but how the hell can he say what is and isn't Fish in Legacy? That's what it is... it's frickin Fish. Additionally, I don't like how he says that the deck was built speficially to beat Hulk Flash. The deck was built as a general disruptive aggro/control deck. Grrrrrrrr...

I just wanted to get that off my chest. Carry on.
Both Fish and Dump Truck are aggro-control decks, but he's also wrong because they are still different in important ways. He's getting distracted by the similar colors (UBW) and not noticing that Dump Truck and Fish have important strategic differences which may not be obvious to the casual observer. It's like confusing a shark with a dolphin - they look very similar and solve their respective problems in a similar way but they come from different lineages, and this shows on careful close inspection.

The Fish label can be applied to decks which put out some early creatures, then use a counterwall to slow down or stop the opponent long enough to win (the line between Fish and Blue Skies is pretty thin indeed).

The Dump Truck deck (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=sideboard/gpana03/top8decks) ran no counters at all, and a "silver bullet" sideboard strategy, but it was UBW, and that is what is confusing Flores. Dump Truck looks superficially more like UBW Fish, but DT's closest relatives are actually Flores' old Napster deck, and from this format something like Red Death*, where UBW Fish is much more closely related to LaBarre's original PT: Rome Fish deck or the type one Fish decks, and the U/R deck that made a splash near the end of the last Tempest-legal Extended season.

I can't say I really blame him - or rather I do blame him, because he IS wrong, but I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing in his place, since it doesn't really pay off for him to do a lot of fact checking on Legacy. These distinctions are pretty pedantic given his MTG.com audience.

*Not the best fit but the best one that's popular.

[Parcher]

How the hell does the Flash Mirror result in a draw?

Well.....since neither of them will admit to it.

Jesse and Allen were 1-1. The third game, both shredded each other's hands to the point of even if they got to where they could go off, the other would certainly have countermagic by that point.

Jesse was behing a few life points, but dropped a Feeder. After a few turns of swinging unmolested, Allen drew and played his own Feeder. The following turn, and for the remaining 15 or so turns that followed, Jesse kept his Feeder "back on defense". But since Allen was down on life by that point and wouldn't win a race, and since it was obvious that if he kept his Feeder back to "block" that Jesse wouldn't attack, he just sat there, filtering for the combo.

They went to time.

Basically Allan earned a draw from a loss by allowing an incorrect perception. But it literally took us all actually walking away from the table in frustration to keep silent on it.

[Hanni]

Matt pretty much summed most of it up. Dumptruck style decks were designed, at least from my knowledge of the deck, to play a completely proactive gameplan. Fish, on the other hand, wants to try and control as many situations as possible in a reactive manner. The major difference here is that Fish is blue-based aggro/control, whereas Dumptruck is alot less dependant on blue.

Regardless, it doesn't matter. The deck was named Fish. If Threshold was called The Green Ocean, then the deck would be The Green Ocean.


Players were calling decks like Max's "Fish,"

That's because Max's decklist was the decklist I made (2 cards different in the sideboard) and I named the deck Fish. I could have named it EBA like Roopey named his build, I could have named it Bad Bruise because the colors are white black and blue. It doesn't even matter anyway, the name isn't really what bothered me... what bothered me most was that he said that the deck was created as an anti Flash deck, when that clearly is not the case.

[Mad Zur]

Well.....since neither of them will admit to it.

Jesse and Allen were 1-1. The third game, both shredded each other's hands to the point of even if they got to where they could go off, the other would certainly have countermagic by that point.

Jesse was behing a few life points, but dropped a Feeder. After a few turns of swinging unmolested, Allen drew and played his own Feeder. The following turn, and for the remaining 15 or so turns that followed, Jesse kept his Feeder "back on defense". But since Allen was down on life by that point and wouldn't win a race, and since it was obvious that if he kept his Feeder back to "block" that Jesse wouldn't attack, he just sat there, filtering for the combo.

They went to time.

Basically Allan earned a draw from a loss by allowing an incorrect perception. But it literally took us all actually walking away from the table in frustration to keep silent on it.
Not quite correct. That was game two, and I eventually assembled the combo and won. By then, we were in turns, so the match was a draw. I don't honestly know if it took any longer than the ten turns I would've needed if I remembered to read my own cards.

[greenmage]

A) Hanni, the fish decks that did well at the grand prix indeed were essentially updates of Dump Truck. Your deck is too. I don't understand why this is a problem.

B) Bodyguard still doesn't stop you from getting stopped by red things if you actually try to win that turn. When you activate Kiki targeting Karmic Guide and then sacrifice Kiki to the Feeder, they can respond by burning your Guide. If you give it pro-red or untargetability now, then you are dead becuase the Kiki activation is countered. Bodyguard only stops Swords.

Maybe they'll invent another, slower but more resiliant win option against fish and other control decks (post SB). Actually, I know one.
Fetch carrion feeder, benelovent bodyguard and academy rector
Sac' academy rector, fetch pattern of rebirth and put it on the feeder, they can't counter this unless you show me green removal!
Sac' the feeder into his own ability
Get yourself SSS or akroma or DSC
Actually, that combo requires not more slots than the other. However, racing SSS is hard for fish decks.

[Nihil Credo]

Thank you. In the early days of developing HF (before I decided to quit Legacy until its banning), I had been looking for ways to get a SSS off a Hulk, but failed to find one after fiddling around with Fierce Empaths and Body Snatchers for a bit. I had totally forgotten about Pattern of Rebirth.

[Parcher]

Not quite correct. That was game two, and I eventually assembled the combo and won. By then, we were in turns, so the match was a draw. I don't honestly know if it took any longer than the ten turns I would've needed if I remembered to read my own cards.

Fair enough. Like I said, we all ran away, afraid someone would spill the beans; so we missed the end of it. I'm pretty sure that's the only reason a Flash mirror could go to time though. Both players tend to move much faster with impending doom already on the table.