Adept Q&A Requests

[Zilla]

Starting in the next day or so, we will be starting a new forum for Adept Q&A. The forum will only be postable by Adepts on this site. The sole purpose of this thread is for Adepts to have an opportunity to provide their thoughts on topics important to the community at large. (This concept was inspired by Bardo's excellent SCG article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14180.html).)

Here's how it will work:

1. As mentioned, an Adepts-only forum will be created.

2. All members may post questions or topics in this thread which they would like to be discussed in detail by this site's Adepts. These questions should (obviously) be Legacy related, but beyond that there are no limitations. Questions about specific decks, metagame concerns, general play advice, tournament preparation discussion, prediction of metagame shifts, etc. are all viable topics.

3. Each week, the Mod staff will select one question posted in this thread which we feel is most interesting or topical. A new thread will be started in the Adept Q&A forum for this question.

4. Each of the site's Adepts will take the time to create a detailed, in-depth response to the selected question. In order to keep the threads focused and on-topic, each Adept will only be allowed one post (though they may edit their posts if they like). This is less about discussion than it is about gauging the opinions of each Adept as an individiual, to allow for a clear, unfettered look at differing viewpoints on important issues.


If we find that we're having trouble choosing from questions, or if the Adepts are willing, we may increase the number of times we choose a question per week, but for now we'll start with one.

Go ahead and post any questions you'd like to see discussed here. Please try to avoid cross-talk. We want questions only. Any posts not containing a question you would like to see discussed will likely be deleted.

[Peter_Rotten]

The forum is up and operational. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=40) Adepts, feel free to post your answer, and members, feel free to post suggestions for questions here.

[Nightmare]

So, people should pose some questions for our adepts to answer. We have one for the next round, but some community support would be great.

[Bryant Cook]

Post-Hulk where do you see combo in the format? Will combo dramatically effect the metagame? Lastly, where do you see combo down the road.

[C.P.]

With some recent additions(i.e SSG and ETW), the non-flash combo decks(namely, TES and Belcher) in the format has been increasing in power. Do you think the format can take it, or is consistent Turn 1 - 2 kill is just too fast for the format? Should LED be added on the 'watch list'?

EDIT: seeing Wastedlife's post makes me wonder: if you axe something to keep combo in check, what should be banned? assuming that we're banning a card or two.

[Tacosnape]

With some recent additions(i.e SSG and ETW), the non-flash combo decks(namely, TES and Belcher) in the format has been increasing in power. Do you think the format can take it, or is consistent Turn 1 - 2 kill is just too fast for the format? Should LED be added on the 'watch list'?

My life would be completely perfect if both Flash and LED got banned. Imagine being able to play red, green, and white again! Combo decks would still exist yet be far less ridiculous.

My question for the Adepts concerns Protection from White.

The two black-based aggro decks packed a whopping 17 creatures with the ability (7 Order of the Ebon Hand, 4 Hand of Cruelty, 6 Stromgald Crusader.) And so I have four questions:

1. Was the strategy of being immune to Swords to Plowshares (And to a lesser degree, Meddling Mage, Vindicate, White creatures, and so forth) so strong that it carried these archetypes through matches that would be otherwise quite troublesome?

2. Is it enough that these three creatures have Protection from White, or is it highly relevant that all three of them are capable of swinging into one of Legacy's flagship creatures, Nimble Mongoose, which usually shows up in a deck that's a troublesome match for Black-based aggro?

3. Do these creatures have a future in Legacy?

4. Do other creatures with this ability (or potential to grant it) like Blood Knight, Eight-and-a-Half Tails, Dross Harvester, or Goblin Wizard have potential in Legacy waiting to be unlocked?

[Tacosnape]

I don't believe LED is what puts Belcher over the top. If anything is making combo run rampant right now it's 10+ goblins on turn one.

You might be right at that. 1/1 aggro beats is such a different form of combo than anything we're used to that it makes running any sort of combo hate incredibly difficult.

[ApokalypseKid9]

When going to an event, is it better to pack a (post-hulk) better deck(say thresh or gobs) or a pet deck that you are more comfortable piloting? This is just a general question, the fun deck or the (arguably) better one?

[Jak]

1) Where do you forsee control to go? Stax, Landstill, MWC, MUC. Will these ever be tier one?

2) What direction do you think the metagame will go towards?

[noobslayer]

When Hulk first erupted on the scene, Fish decks became immensely popular, if flash were to be banned, do you foresee these decks staying on the scene and composing a larger part of our metagame? Also, do these aggro-control decks have sufficient means to combat each other and our run of the mill aggro decks like goblins?

[Aggro_zombies]

Quick question: one card out of Future Sight that recently caught my attention was Delay. Given the speed of decks like Slivers or Thresh when on the kill, it seems like it would be a better version of Counterspell when playing a three or more color deck. It would also be relevant against storm since resolving a key spell three turns after you tried to go off is bad, and it allows the aggro-control player to find a solution. Is it good enough to see play? Just wonderin'.

EDIT: okay, not much substance to that one. How about this: what is the consesus (or is there one) on the use of Counterbalance 'n' friends maindeck? It's popped up in a couple sideboards (mostly Thresh ones) and in Hulk (not your scheduled Legacy programming), but would it be possible to build, say, a viable aggro-control deck utilizing Counterbalance as a keystone disruption piece? Or is it just not worth it? I want to hear what the Pros have to say on this one...and I also want to hear what they have to say about Delay. :P

[Phantom]

I really like Taco's question about pro white, and not just because it affects a deck we're building, lol.


Also, I really like a more philosophical question that came up in the discussion of the latest Legacy article:

Is the OUR format?

I have always thought of the relationship between players and WotC similar to the relationship between myself and the government. They can do things I don't like, and they're going to be ok, but piss off too many of us, and they're the ones who are fucked.

Some people on the thread seemed to believe that the format was the format, and just play it and don't complain because you are not the one making the decisions (I hope I'm not misrepresenting their opinions here). I'll put a direct quote from Tom LaPille so I don't fuck it up "Stop trying to own your world, and just play in it." and "The thing that most Legacy players don't seem to understand is that THIS IS NOT YOUR FORMAT. Type 2 isn't the Standard players' format, and Block Constructed isn't either. The reality is that the DCI can do whatever they want, and they will take their sweet time in cleaning up the format, and providing whatever support they want."

Now I'm not looking to bash him (god knows we can do that back on the other thread) but I find this fascinating thinking, probably because it's so goddamn different from the way I think. I WANT to own my world, and I will do everything in my power to change it to the way I want it.

Anyway, I'd like to see the question posed to the adepts.

[Tacosnape]

And since I already posted a serious question:

How much money do you guys think I would have to slip someone to get an Adept nomination? (snicker)

[Nightmare]

And since I already posted a serious question:

How much money do you guys think I would have to slip someone to get an Adept nomination? (snicker)
Apparently none. Congrats, you earned it.


Is this OUR format?I'm really intrigued by this question. I'm working out a way to write an article about it, because I think the topic needs addressing, and I need an article to write.

EDIT - Keep the Q's coming everyone, we're gonna need a steady flow of them!

[Tacosnape]

Apparently none. Congrats, you earned it.


(Sniffle) I'd like to thank the academy...(Tosses Burritos-in-a-can to the audience)

Another question I'd like to see is:

"What are the ten most underrated/underutilized cards in Legacy?"

Or in other words, What ten cards aren't people playing enough that they should look into?

[dre4m]

(Sniffle) I'd like to thank the academy...(Tosses Burritos-in-a-can to the audience)

Another question I'd like to see is:

"What are the ten most underrated/underutilized cards in Legacy?"

Or in other words, What ten cards aren't people playing enough that they should look into?

I think this is more a question of opinion than anything, so maybe we'll get a semi-concensus of the Adepts.

My question is: Is control a truly viable archetype for tier one standing, or does the high power level of aggro and combo keep it from being competitive? Does control have to play Blue for counters against combo, or can decks like Truffle Shuffle maintain a solid enough combo matchup through sideboarding to aschew blue? What factors have permitted decks like Truffle Shuffle, which has an excellent matchup against Aggro and Aggro-Control, from becoming tier one?

Okay, so I guess it's a few questions. You can handle it.

[Tacosnape]

I think this is more a question of opinion than anything, so maybe we'll get a semi-concensus of the Adepts

I think every question on here that's not a statistic is a question of opinion.:cool:

[dre4m]

I think every question on here that's not a statistic is a question of opinion.:cool:

But is is so reliant upon opinion that it will not provide any widely applicable data in its reponses?

[Tacosnape]

But is is so reliant upon opinion that it will not provide any widely applicable data in its reponses?

I think if you take that attitude, the entire concept of Adept Q&A is pointless.

I doubt you'll get a perfect consensus on this or any other question, but there will always be relevant information to take from the responses. What you'll have is close to 20 detailed, well-thought out answers to read through and from which to assimilate knowledge and develop ideas.

I think you'll get consensus on a few points, too. (IE, Nobody said "Why the hell did they ban Flash? Stupid Aaron Forsythe and his ban-happy self!")

[TheMightyQuinn]

Some people are clamoring for LED and EtW to be banned. If this were to happen, what would each banning mean for decks such as TES and CRET Belcher? Would they still be strong enough to be a major factor in the metagame? Would they fall out of contention?

[Xero]

How did Solidarity go from a clear Tier 1 deck to barely played?

[Pinder]

Whatever happened to Lim-Dul's vault? During Flash's heyday, people were clamoring about how insane it was and comparing it to Vampiric Tutor. Now that Flash is banned, it hasn't really shown up a lot.

Do you think that Vault was only good in Flash, and is headed for the 5 cent bin again, or do you think there are other decks that could make good use of a seemingly powerful, if underplayed, card? What sort of decks do you think would be most apt to abuse Vault? Only Combo, or do you think that it has a home in other deck archetypes as well?

[revenge_inc]

Some people are clamoring for LED and EtW to be banned. If this were to happen, what would each banning mean for decks such as TES and CRET Belcher? Would they still be strong enough to be a major factor in the metagame? Would they fall out of contention?
Given the recent success of both TES and Belcher and my personal hunch that maybe Empty the Warrens may be the next nuissance, I would like to see this questioned answered as well.

[Phantom]

1) Is Jitte a crutch of bad deck building/builders? Sub question: Would any build of Threshold run Jitte if Nimble Mongoose had Troll Ascetics ability?

2) In his recent GP Columbus report (insert guys name who played Sui) wrote that he played cheap, pumpable creatures (as opposed to say, Negators) so he could function on mana light hands, but take advantage of mana flood. How important is this concept in deck building, and what decks, strategies, and cards can abuse this philosophy?

[Mordenkain]

Does major threats like Goblin Lackey and Empthy the Warrens put more restrictions on innovative deck building than proactive and reactive answers like Pitching Neelde, Swords to Plowshares and Force of Will?

[Barook]

Are decks which feature Green as one of their main colors underpowered due to Green's total lack of half-way decent combo hate?
White has Chant, Abeyance and various disruptive creatures/enchantments, Blue has counters, Black has discard, Red has at least Pyrostatic Pillar, Blasts against Blue (and LD, if you can count that as effective disruption), but what does Green have? Root Maze? Plow Under? Seriously? :confused:

Threshold and similiar decks only splash for a few efficient creatures while running tons of quality disruption in the other colors or, in case of combo decks, they run Green only for mana accel.
Sure, Aluren and Survival both run Green to a certain degree, but not without a disruption package borrowed from black and/or blue.
Trinity Green - disruption based on artifacts, not on green.
Now let's take 43 Lands - Mono-Green (under normal circumstances), no artifact-based disruption, dies horribly to combo.

In the past, I heard sometimes stuff like "R/G Beats would be a beast in the meta game - if it didn't lose so horribly to combo."

Does Green's weakness in dealing with combo (and, to a lesser degree, creatures) make it to the stepchild of the format?

[Peter_Rotten]

These two threads have me thinking. Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6103) and here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5891).

What is Legacy's weakest color and stongest color? What are the most played and least played?

[Barook]

One of Red Deck Wins main strength's was to use its mana efficiently via various permanents when it doesn't cast any spells.

Did Bill Stark's Suicide Black perform so well in the GP because it had the same ability (among other things like good metachoices)? Should this kind of strategy be integrated into more decks to increase their performance? And if so, what are the bests ways to do so?

[Solpugid]

What are the most underrated cards in Legacy?

[C.P.]

What is the best splash color for goblins and why? Which one will eventually survive? What are the pros and cons of each builds?

[DrJones]

I've been designing a new deck these days, I've been digging the spoilers for cards that would help in its strategy, and I've discovered that it falls short by one card. Were wizards kind enough to print any card that could be included in it, and it could become a serious contender.

This gives me the idea of asking which decks in the current metagame are in the same situation, lacking just one card to be competitive. Which decks do you think would become feasible with just one new addition to the card pool?

Note I'm asking about decks, not cards.

[zulander]

Two things.

Which direction do you believe legacy is headed towards. A restricted type 1 or more of an extended extended? What direction would you like it to be headed?

What changes in the banned list would you make to reflect this direction?

[TheCramp]

What are the most underrated cards in Legacy?

Yup, this is an interesting question which should reveal the adept's diffrent styles and opinions. (which are also interesting.)

[Pale Moon FTW]

Should Wizards continue to ban cards that become very expensive to keep the price barrier at a minimum or should they only worry about the power level?

[KillemallCFH]

What are the most underrated cards in Legacy?I second this. It would be very interesting to see all the adepts' answers.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

What are the most underrated cards in Legacy?

Agreed.

I don't like the latest question, more specifically the "What kinds of cards could Wizards print..." part of it. I don't like hypotheticals that will never come to fruition.

[Nydaeli]

In Anusien's latest Unlocking Legacy article, he states, "The addition of Tarmogoyf to Legacy has introduced a phenomenon previously seen in every format with the exception of Legacy: the race to find the best way to abuse a strategy." Tarmogoyf is already seeing play in Threshold decks, both UGW and UGR. Where else might it see play, and what is the most effective way to take advantage of it?

[Slag]

How essential is Tormod's Crypt in a modern legacy sideboard? Until recently, I would run crypts in a sideboard without batting an eye, sometime as many as 4 copies. But nowadays, with Thresh more hate resistant by way of the near-ridiculous Tarmogoyf, and iggy pop giving way to combo like TES and belcher, is crypt worth taking up those precious SB slots?

[Hubris]

I’ve got two:

1. Swords to Plowshares are widely touted as the best pin-point creature removal spell printed. Knowing this, what kind of constraints does that put on building new control decks? Is a control deck that doesn’t include white simply inferior to its brethren by not including white for Swords? What are the alternatives to Swords in the other colors, and how do they compare? Is it even worth building a control deck that doesn’t include white?

2. Wizards have already set the precedent of banning cards in Legacy based on price. What does this mean for Legacy when the price of the original dual lands and other staples reaches such a place to put them out of reach for your typical player wanting to try out the format? Will it be the end of Legacy as we know it? Or do you think Wizards will be forced to reprint said staples just for Legacy and Vintage? If they do reprint the staples, what does this mean for the cards banned based on price originally?

[Phantom]

Are wishes the sole property of combo decks in Legacy? are there control or aggro control decks that should be running them? Is there any chance an aggro deck could use them?

[Atwa]

I really wonder how the adepts look toward a fictional reprint-set for the legacy staples.

1 point of view is from the collectors among us, who's collections could lose a lot of value if certain cards are being reprinted.

The other point of view is that certain people are afraid cards will continue to rise in value until the point where potential Legacy players will back away from the format because of it's entry cost. This also allows certain cards to come of the banned list because of their cost (Illusionary Mask anyone?)

Think of cards like the original duallands, Force of Will, Tabernacle, Moat, etc.

What are the feelings of the adents toward such reprints? Both in the short and the long term of the format.

[Phantom]

Tarmogoyf is by all accounts one of if not the best creature ever printed. How does it change the metagame? What deck and/or deck archetype do you think abuses this card best? Is the card too overpowered?

[APriestOfGix]

do you think the grave yard is broken?

it's supposed to be a place where spells can easly end up, and are unusable, and or dead.

Yet almost ALL decks in Legacy are abusing this, and use the grave yard as small library, to hold spells, and tutor cars from.

In almost every deck, side, if not main, deck grave hate is being run. Is the ability to abuse the grave yard, what is really making many deck too fast, and consistant?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I'm not sure how to phrase it, but basically;

How do new innovations and new decks come along? Are new cards the only thing that spawns new successful decks?

(For example, Empty the Warrens led to better Belcher, Bridge from Below led to Breakfast and "Kid" Ichorid)

EDIT: I have another one, although separate;

What is the value and purpose of a team? Why do so many people have teams? Who should a team consist of? Should "I" (any competitive Legacy player) join or found a team?

[Bane of the Living]

Is there a good reason not to play combo right now?

Many of the more popular combo decks work with different engines and need a specific hate card aimed to stop them. This makes a solid anti combo sb almost impossible to build. For example..

TES (storm combo): Warrens/Tendrils kill.
Belcher (fast mana combo): Warrens/Belcher kill.
Breakfast (two card graveyard kill): Sutured Ghoul, 9 million Sky Hussar kill.
Ichorid (multi card combo graveyard kill): Zombie tokens, Ichorid kill.

If you go into the less popular combo decks we get to:

Salvagers (graveyard combo): Pyrite Spellbomb or Orzhov Guildmage kill.
Solidarity (storm combo): Brainfreeze (milling) kill.
SI (storm combo): Warrens and Tendrils kill.

There are more but these are the ones to worry about I think. Look at the diversity in kill methods. They all have amazing matchups aside from random aggro control. They're powerfull and demand other decks play by "they're rules". Interact with me or lose.

Is the combo rise still healthy right now?

When could we determine there's a problem?

[Xero]

What's up with Prison? It has to be the least played but most talked about archetype. Is it any good? Can a prison deck be built that takes advantage of the current metagame?

[Bongo]

How do you beat aggro-control, arguably the most successful archetype in Legacy?

What kind of deck has the best chance at supplanting Threshold as the format's top dog?

[Barook]

If an adept could make an Invitational card, what would it look like?

Further explanation on the design and its suppossed impact in the formats, but especially Legacy, are appreciated.

[AnwarA101]

What is the best deck in the format? Why is it the best?

[Nihil Credo]

(@Anwar: I can't believe the first one is actually a question :P)

Extended is looking eerily similar to Legacy these days. Tarmogoyf and CounterTop are everywhere, manabases have become greedy thanks to fetches+duals, and graveyard combo is a huge threat.

What do the adepts who play both formats think about this? Could a Legacy player's experience for once be useful in a PTQ format?

[Nydaeli]

Threshold is pretty much the clear DTB right now. As such, the mirror match is one of the most important matchups in the format. What do you think is the most effective way to win it? (For example, Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top, Wasteland/Stifle, or Spell Snare.)

[Xero]

What is the best deck in the format?

I think the answer to this is farily obvios. But how about the 10 best decks?

[Kilz88]

This is a question I would love to see multiple responses to because it is very opinionated:

Why do you think people have prompted for red splash threshold over white splash. Assuming you move meddling mage to the board due to the lack of combo?

I am still pro-white because with alll the goyfs floating around there is really nothing better to do than to turn him into a farmer...(Swords). Not to mention mystic enforcer kind of trumps fledgling. I mean, there are a lot of arguements to be made but I wanted to hear what the adepts thought of it. So....GO!

Thanks.

[Zach Tartell]

What's your favorite deck to play? Why?

I hate to sound like some crappy version of a Magic work sheet from fifth grade. I'd like to hear from some of the more obscure Adepts and Admins. For instance, I could guess that Nightmare might answer something longwinded about White thresh, gardens, breakfast, and then allude to some newer, secret-er Herbig Project. I might also guess that Di would talk about Gardens, Breakfast, Turboland, and... Thunderbluff? I saw his signed playset of Anaba Grunts once.

Sound off, maybe?

Edit: Also, what's the name of that pink bunny blue monster 6/6 guy? I can't remember what sets he's in, and gatherer isn't too forgiving as far as mispelling goes.

[Solpugid]

Vizzerdrix?

I second that question: What deck is the most fun to play?

[Bovinious]

Vizzerdrix?

EDIT: SARNATH'D

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Is there a good reason not to play combo right now?

Many of the more popular combo decks work with different engines and need a specific hate card aimed to stop them. This makes a solid anti combo sb almost impossible to build. For example..

TES (storm combo): Warrens/Tendrils kill.
Belcher (fast mana combo): Warrens/Belcher kill.
Breakfast (two card graveyard kill): Sutured Ghoul, 9 million Sky Hussar kill.
Ichorid (multi card combo graveyard kill): Zombie tokens, Ichorid kill.

If you go into the less popular combo decks we get to:

Salvagers (graveyard combo): Pyrite Spellbomb or Orzhov Guildmage kill.
Solidarity (storm combo): Brainfreeze (milling) kill.
SI (storm combo): Warrens and Tendrils kill.

There are more but these are the ones to worry about I think. Look at the diversity in kill methods. They all have amazing matchups aside from random aggro control. They're powerfull and demand other decks play by "they're rules". Interact with me or lose.

Is the combo rise still healthy right now?

When could we determine there's a problem?


I think that these are important questions that we need to ask ourselves sooner rather than later. Seconded!

[Bongo]

Metagame predictions for Legacy at Worlds 2007:


1. Most played deck?

2. Most successful deck?

3. Darkhorse?

4. Top8 predictions?

[Aggro_zombies]

Metagame foils: what are the best options right now? I know Landstill is an obvious one, but I was wondering if there were some other sleeper options versus the Threshold Machine.

[IndyTerminator]

I have been told that being able to split a Fact or Fiction correctly is the mark of a good player.

How do you split and choose piles from Fact or Fiction? There are a lot of factors based on the game-state that can go into this decision but how do you typically split the piles? How do you choose the piles based on the decisions of your opponent?

[Zach Tartell]

What are the adepts/mods/admins coming up with for the CaNG contest? I reckon that, as individuals marked for their knowledge and interest with the format, they might have some savage input.

[MattH]

What are the adepts/mods/admins coming up with for the CaNG contest? I reckon that, as individuals marked for their knowledge and interest with the format, they might have some savage input.

You will, of course, have to wait and see!

[AngryTroll]

But how about the 10 best decks?

I like this question. The first couple are obvious, but the last few slots are arguable.

I could come up with my list, but it would be missing major decks for lack of experience; for example, I've never played Deep6er playing Solidarity, and I've never played against one of the famed East Coast Enchantress players. That right there may make my list miss two of the decks that belong there.

[Bardo]

Bump.

We're putting this back on the tracks after CANG(D)^3 diverted staff to other things.

So, does anyone have a good question or set of questions for the Adept Q&A forum?

[Jak]

Why is Angel Stax not getting more attention? When they beat so many high tier decks easily, why is it not played more? Is there a way to make the deck more consistent with draw or manipulation? Could a blue splash be beneficial?

[Phantom]

1) Is this the most fun (or best) state the Legacy format has ever been?

2) How do you think the format would shift if Tarmogoyf was banned? Would Goblins go back to being the top deck?

[technogeek5000]

Where is combo?

Several months ago Cephalid breakfast was a tier one deck... it had multiple top 8's at nearly every tournament. Belcher preceeded breakfast and had a very large number of top 8's... and before Belcher, TES was puuting up impressive results. Occasionally you will see a combo deck in the top 8 but ther realy are no combo decks currently in the format that are higher then tier 1.5. Solidarity fell off the radar and aluren will occasionally place. Control decks and aggro decks dominate top 8's but it seems that combo will only put up 1 player or sometimes none at all. Why is this?

Great question. Thanks. :) - Bardo

[Brehn]

I've went through the DtB-Forum, the Established Decks Forum and some non-janky N&D Threads.

In the following threads the general consensus is "We slaughter Threshold":
Landstill, Armageddon Stax, MUC, Dragon Stompy, Ichorid, Skybus, Gargangel Stompy, Not Quite Survival, The Truffle Shuffle, TEC, Vaka Pox

In the following threads most players claim "We have a very positive Threshold matchup":
UB Reanimator, Tombstone, Vial Affinity, TarmoTog, Goyf Sligh, Death and Taxes

In the following threads most people tend to say "Our Threshold matchup is even to slightly favored, with the right MB/SB choices it can be pushed to 'positive'":
Deadguy Ale, MeatHooks, Dreadstill, MossNought, Karach, Cephalid Breakfast, Enchantress, Eva Green

In the following threads people actually talk about having problems with the Threshold matchup:
AggroLoam, Goblins, Combo Decks (Spring Tide, Solidarity, TES, Iggy Pop, Belcher, Fetchland Tendrils)

Therefore, the conclusion of a Source-reading format newbie would be:
a) Threshold has a bad matchup against almost every non-combo deck.
b) Nobody is playing combo anyway (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8922)
a) + b) = c) Threshold is horrible. Don't play it if you want to Top 8 in tournaments.

Historical Top8-Thread disagrees. Possible explanations of this contradiction could be:
1. People overestimate their pet decks, don't test the Threshold matchup properly and put up wrong numbers.
2. Actually Threshold is overrated, but since it is played by lots of skilled players who always win their bad matchups against scrubs and always reach Top 8, it's still a DtB.
3. Actually Threshold is overrated, but there are enough (combo-heavy?) metagames where it shines.
4. Threshold will soon fall off the throne of "the best deck in the format" because of the stated reasons. It'll just take some time.

Questions:
Which of those 4 explanations is true and to what extent? If 1. is true, which of the above listed decks should rather have a negative Threshold matchup? If 4. is true, how long will it take in your opinion? Also, are there other explanations beyond those 4?


Edit: To put it into one question (for a thread title): "Why is Threshold so successful?"

[matelml]

What are the most playskill rewarding Legacy decks? As an example I believe Threshhold isn't a very easy deck, but it isn't very playskill rewarding either, because if you make some mistakes with cantrips or Dazes, as long as they are pretty minor the deck is still very strong. I hope to not only hear about combo decks.

Another question is: How do you think a good manabase is built?

[GiantGrowth]

Many people have said in the past that a deck cannot be viable unless it could deal with a first turn lackey. Is this still true? And what other requirements do decks have in todays metagame to be successful?

[Zach Tartell]

I suppose this would've been more fun last month (we almost talked Sr. Barnatello into writing an article called "WTF@MUC?"), but here goes:

What's up with the second tier? And, I suppose, third tier? They seem to keep popping up (a cursory glance shows that we don't have even a smattering of weird decks in the DTB forum) from time to time in top eights. In Spain a zoo deck played a singleton Bowdyr Heavyweights (which I confused with Bowdyr Intimidator and thought was awesome) in the last couple weeks. MUC has been putting up numbers. MUC. A deck without ways to deal with creatures and >4 winconditions.

What other weird decks do you predict showing up in the future? What's your favorite not-tier 1 deck?

[raharu]

After looking at the DB forum, I see IGGy pop and Fetchland tendrils, the first was considered almost completely dead for a long time, and the other, at least as far as I know, wasn't even a deck until a few months ago. Considering that question #24 was "Where's the Combo?", and the aforementioned question wasn't asked that long ago, has the format started to, more or less, shift towards a combo heavier (not combo heavy, major difference between the two) metagame? Does anyone think that uberfast combo such as Dark Rit Belcher and SI (vast difference in the amount of protection between the two, but eh, can't always differentiate in detail) have a slot in the current metagame, or is the current state of the format more favorable to "combo-control" such as Fetchland Tendrils/ IGGy pop and TES (or perhaps not TES), running protection, answers to roadblocks and other things of the like in the MD? On that note, is Solidarity making a come back any time soon? (David Gearheart, I'm looking at you :P and also apologizing in advance for spelling).

[Thehunter820]

What are the top ten decks in the legacy format, and how would this list shift if tarmogoyf was banned.

[technogeek5000]

Shadowmoor's true effect on the legacy environment

The last three sets were great for legacy. Future sight created dragon stompy, made ichorid viable+, and gave us goyf. Lorwyn gave solid improvements to nearly every single deck in the format(ponder in thresh, thoughtseize in almost everything black, doran in rock, etc...) and morningtide gave us a creature so amazing that it pushed an almost forgotten deck into DTW status instantly. And then there's shadowmoor...

The cards at first thought to be good (shusher, mentor, fulminator mage) have been proven to be strictly worse then other options available. Cursecatcher and Wilt-leaf liege are both solid cards but the shells they go in are uncommon and relatively weak. The swans/chain of plasma combo, while resilient, seems rather mana intensive and combo/control decks have not done well in the past. Enchantress got a few bullets, but enchantress isnt played that much and they realy are only 1/2 ofs. Etc,etc,etc...

So my question: Will the metagame really change after shadowmoor is released, or are most of the cards more hype and speculation then viable.

[kabal]

Shadowmoor's true effect on the legacy environment

The last three sets were great for legacy. Future sight created dragon stompy, made ichorid viable+, and gave us goyf. Lorwyn gave solid improvements to nearly every single deck in the format(ponder in thresh, thoughtseize in almost everything black, doran in rock, etc...) and morningtide gave us a creature so amazing that it pushed an almost forgotten deck into DTW status instantly. And then there's shadowmoor...

The cards at first thought to be good (shusher, mentor, fulminator mage) have been proven to be strictly worse then other options available. Cursecatcher and Wilt-leaf liege are both soliud cards but the shells they go in are uncommon and relatively weak. The swans/chain of plasma combo, while resilient, seems rather mana intensive and combo/control decks have not done well in the past. Enchantress got a few bullets, but enchantress isnt played that much and they realy are only 1/2 ofs. Etc,etc,etc...

So my question: Will the metagame really change after shadowmoor is released, or are most of the cards more hype and speculation then viable.
No love for The Servant's Stone (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9277)?

[technogeek5000]

The way I see it is that for a two card combo to truely work in legacy it requires 2 things: Easy mana cost and that both pieces dont suck without the other. The synergy has a decent cost and since ita all colorless it can be played in a variety of shells which is the best thing it has going for it. But the cards individually dont do shit. if you have 1 piece and not the other in a opening hand, you have 6 playable cards in your hand. Also, the combo runs the same amount of pieces as breakfast but its a turn slower, requires that you dont miss a land drop. I dont believe that this is a fair trade off for not using the graveyard.

[Michael Keller]

But the cards individually dont do shit.

I don't agree with this, to a certain extent. Painter's Servant can do some serious damage if you play cards that are themselves useful on their own. For instance, there was talk of running Red Elemental Blast main-deck. That obviously is a slight risk someone would be willing to take, but under the circumstances, combo has a great match against aggro anyways. So in essence, that card even in the main helps beef up your control match and it has synergy with the Servant. Persecute is another card people have been referring to. It might be moderately slow, but it has its uses and can be devastating when resolved (against the control match).

You read above that mono-blue control is making a comeback. Again, Grindstone apparently can't suck that much. Give those cards a little more credit for what they can do with cards that are already useful, and not the latter. In reality, there's no such thing as a card sucking on its own - that's why there's 56 other selections to back each one up. I think this combo is very underrated and in the hands of a competent combo player, it could be potentially devastating. Until then, it's all on paper.

Edit: My question is: Should concepts that arise when a new set is released be considered 'tiered' until they are released? You may need results first, but it seems like there is a lot of interest building in this area.

[Kadaj]

How much impact do the posts on the Source actually impact Legacy deckbuilding? I've seen some pretty significant development go on in various threads on this site, deviating heavily from what was at one point accepted as the "proper" way to go about something, and yet it seems like everytime I read a tournament report there's a build that was deemed either "outdated" or "sub-optimal" by the source at large, yet it won anyway.

In short: Does The Source actually have it right with the developments that go on here, or is The Source really operating inside its own bubble?

[Illissius]

So, here's one:

What cards do you keep trying to, for lack of a better word, "break"? By this, I don't mean "make broken", generally done by building a deck which revolves entirely around that card and which falls apart completely in its absence. I mean cards which are already Legacy playable or on the brink of it, which you think are stronger than commonly given credit for, and which you cannot seem to stop drafting decklists including, in an effort to realize the full potential you see in them. Maybe the card already sees play in some decks and strategies, but you keep thinking it should have wider applications; maybe it doesn't, but you keep thinking it should, somewhere.

I might be the only one who does this, but if not, it'd be interesting to see what cards everyone else is fascinated by.

(Note that this is not the same as the "underrated cards" question, which was a far more general case of basically cards which were widely agreed to be very powerful, broken or banned in previous formats, conspicuous by their absence in Legacy; not necessarily cards which you personally see something in which other people don't seem to (at least judging by the decks they play) and keep trying to bring that something out.)

[cloudstrife7]

Adepts,
What do you see as the most underplayed strategies in the format? Do you see the format as being full of different roads to victory that are more competitive than they are being given credit for, or do you think that 1-4 strategies are simply stronger than the rest of the format, and would dominate utterly if only a few more people would play them?

[Illissius]

OK, here's another:

Why is Dreadstill a good deck? It seems to be T8ing a lot.

It confounds me.

[Skeggi]

This is not a question, but more a request:


4. Each of the site's Adepts will take the time to create a detailed, in-depth response to the selected question. In order to keep the threads focused and on-topic, each Adept will only be allowed one post (though they may edit their posts if they like). This is less about discussion than it is about gauging the opinions of each Adept as an individiual, to allow for a clear, unfettered look at differing viewpoints on important issues.

It seems this rule is being skipped...and I really liked this rule :frown:

And I'd like to add a question: how do you guys feel about planeswalkers? And besides flavour; what about viability of them in Legacy?

[crazyroundman]

What is the impact or result of the Tow Man Tournament?

[Shugyosha]

What do you do to keep up to date and informed about the/your meta outside of the Source?
How do you deal with new decks or variants/spins of known decks. Do you simply read about them, test with or against them, discuss with people known for being good with that kind of deck (also outside of the Source)?

[Solpugid]

Will true Landstill (no daze, goyf, dreadnought, etc.) be able to compete as/if the format grows faster? If so, what color splashes are the best for an unknown meta? Or, if you prefer, for a meta composed of mostly established decks.

[Hummingbird TG]

Is Dark Confidant (still) a good card? (If not, was it ever?) And was it just phased out when the format became faster and more efficient? (And is it still usable and where?)

[Anusien]

What is your plan to get Wizards to support Legacy in a broader scale?

[Captain_Morgan]

Who or what had the greatest effect on you as a player, and why?

[Fossil4182]

I've been playing Legacy ever since the format shifted from 1.5 to Legacy. I've always enjoyed the format, however I live in the Midwest and people who play in this area traditionally play only Standard or Draft. I've found a small competitive group of about 4-5 players, but we've been wanting to grow. My question for the Adepts is:

What is a good way to start/grow support for Legacy in a area that traditionally plays standard/draft?

[DalkonCledwin]

just because it is a huge issue that I am thinking everyone in the coming months on this forum is going to be interested in.... What are your predictions as to what the most popular decks at Grand Prix: Chicago 2009 will be... in otherwords, what will the meta for that major tournament look like?

[Fossil4182]

I think it would be fair to say that in Legacy we see a trend developing around a package of Blue cards that seem to show up fairly often in deck lists. Namely Brainstorm, Daze, Force of Will - and to a lesser extent - Counterbalance, Stifle, Ponder show up in nearly ever incarnation of decks that feature Blue. I come from a little bit of an older background of Magic, so usually decks would splash Blue for drawing. This being stated, I understand why decks would splash for Brainstorm, Ponder, Intuition and to a lesser degree Fact or Fiction and Gifts Ungiven. I see a developing trend where you have decks that run lower levels of Blue cards (less than 20) yet they still try to pack in Force of Will. So my question is "Has the past success of UGx Threshold, Dreadstill and other control decks that rely on Blue stifled creativity in creating control decks for Legacy, or is the hype that true and every control deck should make room for Force of Will and the Blue counter package?"

*I'm also including Aggro Control decks this analysis.

[Melman]

Here's my question, roughly phrased: "What's happened to Aggro?" It used to be that t8s would be fairly evenly split between aggro and control decks of some sort, with a random combo thrown in everyone once in a while. Nowadays, it's almost entirely control or aggro-control, with some combo. Goblins, Sui varients, burn, all have kinda dropped off, so you see maybe 1 aggro deck per t8. Obviously there are exceptions but I think overall this trend holds.
Is aggro a fundamentally weak strategy in the current meta? Is it possible for a deck now to be aggressive enough, without comboing, so that it can keep your opponent from stabilizing and run through their defenses? Aggro Loam (and goblins) is the best example of decks that try and do this, but they don't see many t8s any more, and that's a somewhat limited number of decks for the entire 'aggro' archtype. Are there viable options being unexplored, or should everyone just man up, splash blue, and call it a day?

[Mayk0l]

I don't know if this has been done or not, but

Consider yourself getting an invitational to design a card (much like Meddling Mage and Voidmage Prodigy), and it can be any card and it doesn't necessarily need to represent you as a person (whereas Meddling Mage and Voidmage Prodigy do), and thus it doesn't have to be a creature.
Considering the format warping cards that are Counterbalance and Tarmogoyf, what card would you design, specifically designed to fit Legacy, that would be powerful but balanced. In your opinion, what does the format need, or what would be interesting additions?

[Arctic_Slicer]

On the 3rd of July of 2007 the Adepts discussed the Best and Worst colors in Legacy (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6171). The general consensus seemed to be that Red was one of if not the best color in the format. In the 21 months since we have seen a great decline in both the popularity and success of heavy red decks such as vial goblins. I think it would be interesting to see a discussion on how the format has changed in the last 2 years in relation to where each color stands as well as discussing the current best and worst colors of Legacy. A sort of Weakest and Strongest Colors 2.0 or 2009 or something.

[Mayk0l]

Really? A silly, sarcastic discussion about Nourishing Lich is better a topic than mine or Arctic Slicer's? :P

EDIT: Wait, I get it. Nevermind. I just saw the DTB forum.

[Valtrix]

[Sorry if I'm not doing this right. I'm just curious about the metagame right now.]

With the latest postings in the DTB forum we've seen a few interesting developments. The first is that threshold is really starting to diverge into two paths, that is CounterTop and Tempo. The second is that Zoo has recently taken a DTB status since it's been printed a lot of good tools recently. I'd say the third is a lack of significant combo in the DTB/W section.

What do you think has caused this (somewhat recent) metagame shift, and where do you expect that it's going?

[from Cairo]

On the 3rd of July of 2007 the Adepts discussed the Best and Worst colors in Legacy (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6171). The general consensus seemed to be that Red was one of if not the best color in the format. In the 21 months since we have seen a great decline in both the popularity and success of heavy red decks such as vial goblins. I think it would be interesting to see a discussion on how the format has changed in the last 2 years in relation to where each color stands as well as discussing the current best and worst colors of Legacy. A sort of Weakest and Strongest Colors 2.0 or 2009 or something.

Think this one could be a really good one to see as well since so much has changed. The only thing I could see making it a boring topic is it at least to me it seems like the lists would probably be very similar (:u:>:g:>:b:~:r:>:w:). But I'd be surprised/interested to read any arguments against Blue being the strongest color in the format or White being the weakest.

[Arctic_Slicer]

I see that this thread has been unstickied. Does this mean that the adept Q&A board is going to be retired? What's the plan? I'm curious to know.

[Bardo]

The thread getting unstuck was an accident, I think. I'll poll folks LA Lounge and see how much interest there is in reviving this.

Re-stuck.

[DragoFireheart]

I've looked over the Adept forum and while there was one topic that made mention and some discussion about Counter Balance / Sensei's Divining Top, that was about a year ago.

Now, threshold really isn't the same as it doesn't even always run Threshold creatures anymore. Instead, it has split into two different arch-types: Counter-Top and Tempo Thresh. I feel that a topic specifically about the implications of Counter-Top should be worth considering in the Adept thread.

My question is this: now that the format has been exposed to Counter-Top for roughly a year now, how much has it transformed the format?

[JeroenC]

Well, not unexpected:

What is your opinion on the M10 rules changes?

[Arctic_Slicer]

Well, not unexpected:

What is your opinion on the M10 rules changes?

To expand on this: how do you think the rule changes will affect Legacy?

[AngryTroll]

I don't want to start a flame war, so the Adept thread seems like a good place to ask this:

Does Skullclamp need to stay banned?

The obvious answer is yes.

On the other hand, although it's a fine addition to Thresh-y decks, it's a much better addition to Control decks with Decree and Elspeth, and the entire Aggro Archetype. I think Skullclamp would unseat Counterbalance decks from the undisputed throne of the format, and would encourage people to play Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, and Landstill. Of course, with fewer Counterbalance decks running around, some form of Storm Combo is more playable. Whether it's Ad Nauseum, Solidarity, or something else, combo would still be better without Counterbalances across from it all day.

As an added bonus, Krosan Grip is already solid against the Counterbalance decks.

The question: Would Skullclamp shift the metagame into an interesting region where Thresh, Aggro, Control, and Combo were all playable, or would it swing it too far towards Aggro, or would it swing it too far towards Control?


For the record, I hate banned list discussions. I hate hearing about Goyf, Counterbalance, Top, Land Tax, and the other obvious discussion topics. However, I very much enjoy listening to (a very few people) discuss cards like Entomb. I don't like wading through a dozen pages of OMG no whey!, but a few well reasoned posts are good reading.

[Amon Amarth]

Does Skullclamp need to stay banned?

The obvious answer is yes.

I don't know if Skullclamp should remain banned because it's "OMG broken!" but because it push some too many Aggro decks out of contention. Some insane Skullclamp deck would be developed and invalidate most other aggressive archetypes.

It would be fun to play with and eventually break it again.

[Bardo]

Due to an abundance of laziness and lack of interest, the Q&A forum is on "indefinite hiatus."

[Valtrix]

What are you talking about? I have plenty of interest in reading an adept thread.

[AngryTroll]

What are you talking about? I have plenty of interest in reading an adept thread.

+1.

It's probably not that hard to start a new thread in the adept thread, and then let it take it's course. Assuming, you know, only the adepts can post in it, it shouldn't need that much supervision on the part of the mods.

If there aren't enough adepts to post in a single thread, there should probably be new and/or different adepts.

I think that that is an interesting question, but I don't want to start a two hundred million page thread where 99.9% of the posts are worthless, have already been covered, or are flames. I'd like to read a thread that's a page or two long, containing well reasoned, intelligent, readable posts about the question.

[Bardo]

What are you talking about? I have plenty of interest in reading an adept thread.

Interest in responding to questions (Adepts, mods, etc.) is painfully low, not lack of interest in reading responses.

[mossivo1986]

maybe there should be more adepts 'hint hint'

[Elfrago]

If there aren't enough adepts to post in a single thread, there should probably be new and/or different adepts.