[Deck] Ichorid

[Xero]

One format that is somewhat similar Legacy is Classic MTGO. This format lacks FoW, Lackey, and several other important cards. However, Vampiric Tutor, Flash, and Skullclamp are all legal, making the power level relativiely close. One Classic deck that I think can be transferred to Legacy is a type of Ichorid deck similar to the ones developed for Vintage. Here's what I'm working on:


4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Deep Analysis
4x Cephalid Colesium
4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return

4x Serum Powder

4x Narcomeba
4x Ichorid
4x Street Wraith

4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Thug
3x Shambling Shell

3x Flame-Kin Zealot
2x Cephalid Sage

The deck wins on turns 1-2 a surprising amount of the time. A sample opening hand could be:

1x LeD
1x Cephalid Colesium
1x Serum Powder
2x Stinkweed Imp
1x Street Wraith
1x Bridge from Below

First turn: Play LeD and Colesium. Cycle Street Wraith, in response, sac LeD for UUU. Replace draw from Wraith with Dredging 5 times (one Narcomeba, one Bridge, one Therapy in the yard). Sac. Cephalid Colesium. Dredge 5, Dredge 5, Dredge 6. (3 Narcomeba, 1 F-K Zealot, 3 Bridge, 2 Therapy, 2 Dread Return in yard). Sac Narcomeba to Therapy (2 Narcomeba, 6 Zombie tokens in play). Sac 2x Narcomeba+token to Dread Return (11 tokens in play), getting back Zealot. Swing for 36.

These sorts of hands are not uncommon. However, the deck has a significant problem with consistancy, especially on the play. Assuming I choose to be on the draw, here's how 10 sample hands went:

1. Turn 2 win.
2. Mulled into oblivion
3. Turn 1 win (Serum Powder Mulligan to 7)
4. Turn 5 win (Mull to six)
5. Turn 3 win
6. Turn 3 win (Serum Powder mull)
7. Turn 6 win (Mull to 5)
8. Turn 1 win
9. Turn 2 win (mulled to 6, serum powder mull to 6, serum powder mull to 6)
10. Turn 11 win (should have mulliganed here).

That's unfortunate, but I think the deck is worth working on. Future Sight gave Ichoird some powerful tools, and I believe that a deck similar to this one could be very viable.

[hi-val]

Having experience with this deck in Vintage, you should probably cut FKZs down to just one and up the Sages. The LEDs are almost as good as Bazaar in the deck. My team figured out that in Vintage, taking three damage for a free One With Nothing was absolutely what the deck needed, so we run the alotted 1 LED there. I'm totally serious about this. You might also consider Dryad Arbor. It really helps to cast Emerald Charm and flash back Return.

[laststepdown]

taking three damage for a free One With Nothing was absolutely what the deck needed

sigged.

[Windux]

Do you really need 4 Dread Return?
Would 3 be enough? Also, just 4 Cephalid Coluseum and 4 LED for popping up your lands and flashback Analysis?

[Elfrago]

Think twice could help with extra draw from the grave and more dredging.

[DeDennis]

I gave the deck a try and missed some discard outlets, am I doing something wrong?

[MattH]

What do you do when your opening hand doesn't have LED? Mulligan until it does?

[Xero]

Quote:
taking three damage for a free One With Nothing was absolutely what the deck needed
sigged.

He's actually right. Vintage Ichorid is kind of a strange deck.


Having experience with this deck in Vintage, you should probably cut FKZs down to just one and up the Sages. The LEDs are almost as good as Bazaar in the deck. My team figured out that in Vintage, taking three damage for a free One With Nothing was absolutely what the deck needed, so we run the alotted 1 LED there. I'm totally serious about this. You might also consider Dryad Arbor. It really helps to cast Emerald Charm and flash back Return.

I like the FKZs in that they often can immediately win the game, rather than relying on Sage, etc. to find them. My sideboard right now is:

4x Dryad Arbor
3x Bayou
4x Reverant Silence
4x Chalice

I really like the Arbors, they might be good in the maindeck.


hat do you do when your opening hand doesn't have LED? Mulligan until it does?

Not necessarily, especially if you're going second. For example, a hand like

2x Street Wraith
1x Golgari Grave-Troll
2x Stinkweed Imp
3x Whatever

is actually quite good. You can discard the Grave-Troll on your discard phase, then dredge with the Street Wriaths to get the ball rolling. LeD is definietly important, however.

[BreathWeapon]

Obsessive Search is a replacement/addition for/to Street Wraith that supports Force of Will in the MD/SB. I don't think that the objective here is speed, because the deck is inevitable with just Zombie tokens, Ichorid, Dread Return on Grave-Troll and Cabal Therapy, instead the objective is to add disruption/permission that guarantees that Lion's Eye Diamond resolves and aggro can't get "game, match, point" with mulliganing into Tormod's Crypt game 2.

I think you need MD Unmask, SB Force of Will and either Obsessive Research or Cephalid Sages in the MD to support Force of Will. I'm not certain if Obsessive Research or Cephalid Sages is right, or whether or not a Dredger/Dread Returns should be cut for both, but I'm guessing that Obsessive Research is just as good as Street Wraith and Unmask is more important than non-Troll Dread Return targets.

[blacklotus3636]

I thought the point of mana-less ichorid in vintage was to not play any spells and go as fast as you can without having to worry about disruption like force of will. Mana-less ichorid doesn`t port that well to legacy because in legacy you still have to play spells to win the game but there is the same pool of disruption in legacy as there is in vintage and seeing as how force is a very played card I don`t think it will work. The other problem is that although vintage mana-less ichorid wins without ever casting a spell which makes it immune to force of will it is much weaker to other disruption like leyline,crypt and wasteland with no way to combat it. I like the idea but it will never be a metagame defining deck because it scoops to certain disruption. I do think this deck might be able to catch someone off guard and get a few match wins because of it.

[BreathWeapon]

Obviously, the dynamics of the deck have to change significantly when you substitute an uncounterable, recurring dredge engine for a counterable, one time outlet, but that doesn't invalidate the deck. I think the problem is that no one is looking past the goldfish and addressing control, where wanting to be on the draw for Cephalid Coliseum and Threshold conflicts with adding Daze to the equation, being on the draw conflicts with using Unmask and Chalice of the Void to stop Tormod's Crypt, being on the draw (or just using Unmask, Force of Will and Misdirection) conflicts with Threshold (or rather you're forced to wait another turn before you can go off).

Game one, you're on the draw, you get to see your opponent's land drop, and from there you can either decide to use Unmask, hope the Cephalid Coliseum can protect LED from Daze or draw/discard and just use the top of your deck and your maximum hand size to Dredge. Game two, Force of Will and Misdirection come in and you pray. Game three is where it gets interesting, because you get to choose between play and draw, where you want to be on the play against aggro so you can get Unmask and Chalice of the Void to disrupt their hate, and you can SB in Basking Rootwalla/Dryad Arbor to factor in Cabal Therapy as well. You can also do some tricky shit, like play LED and pass, and when the opponent plays his Tormod's Crypt, you sac in response and play Circular Logic.

You don't need Obsessive Search to support Force of Will if you bring in Misdirection to, tho' the blue count helps, so you can add Dryad Arbor instead. Commandeer and Foil seem playable, if you have the blue card count for Commandeer and the Dryad Arbor/SB lands for Foil.

It may have a glass jaw, but it's bullet proof glass. As long as your opponent's aren't playing around with Leylines, I think you've got good odds.

[Awesomator]

Guess I'll post my list which has been testing extremely well since I've been giving it out anyway.

2x Tropical Island
4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x Lotus Petal
4x LED
1x Careful Study
4x Breakthrough
4x Deep Analysis
3x Dread Return
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Bridge from Below

2x Cephalid Sage
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Thug
4x Street Wraith

My SB

4x Dryad Arbor
1x Tropical Island
4x Chalice of the Void (Post Bannings, helps to race or cripple combo)
4x Reverent Silence
2x Emerald Charm (not random, 5th way to get rid of enchantments and silence is much better)

There are less dredge creatures in my build and there are no serum powders. I have tested with Serum Powder and they hurt the deck pretty bad imo. Cutting to three therapy has been awesome, hasn't affected any matchups except for solidarity. 3 Dread Return is all you need. Flamekin is easy to get to through Sage and draw/dredge. Breakthrough is ridiculous, busted with led + a land.

[Binary Star]

I lost to the above build on the first turn for two games in a row. I expect big things from this deck.

[Awesomator]

Was it to me on mws? lol

Since the changes I've been pulling out a lot more turn one kills, this deck seems very solid.

[Binary Star]

Was it to me on mws? lol

Since the changes I've been pulling out a lot more turn one kills, this deck seems very solid.

Yup!! Keep up the good work!!

[The Rack]

I lost to it twice also and the person said they won a Mox tourney with it. Was that you Awesomeator? So Leyline means g3 all the time? what about other gy removal. How do you guys stand up to it?

[barron]

with a hand of two wraiths and a thug why would you wait until your discard phase? I will admit i know nothing about how to play the deck since I never have, but my inceptive opinion is that wraithing on your upkeep would greatly benefit your tempo since, if you chose, you could dredge at least 3 times before your first main phase.

[Awesomator]

Vs Leyline there are Silences, Arbors, and Charms. Vs Crypt there are only chalices (or could play needles). Yixlid Jailer is a house vs the deck though, that's if they get around therapies and the speed of the deck.

[Bane of the Living]

Are fourteen mana sources enough? Would Chrome Mox be better than Lotus Petal or does the deck just win without needing the mana source a second time? When is Arbor coming in and why exactly?

[edgewalker]

In testing this deck, I have found that there is a huge poblem in the amount of discard outlets used in the deck. I've tested both careful study and breakthrough, and I love both. The only problem is we only really have room for one.

I happen to side with careful study because to many times I've used break through only to draw DA, DA, GGT, LED and think,"man I wish I could keep that LED" Careful study gives you the flexibility of keeping those LEDs, but it doesn't let you draw enough or dig deep enough into the deck.

Ideally, I wish I could play 8 LEDs in the place of 4 Careful study/breakthrough but I can't. Basicly what I'm trying to get at is that I've had games with this deck where I have turn 1 2 wins half the time and the other I have the god hand, but no way to put anything in the yard. I think a full package of Careful Study and Breakthrough needs to be looked at, but the question is what to take out. Personally, and I feel almost dirty saying this, I think Ichorid's might need to go, at this point they're only an alterntive win condition since a swarm of hasted zombies is so much better.

[Cire]

Wait, I'm a little new to this deck, but is LED used only for the free discard? Other than that what's this deck's plan against small creatures that can sacrifice themselves, like mogg fanatic.

[edgewalker]

LED's are for playing DA's and Colesiums and getting you're entire hand in the yard. As for fanatic, yea, he's a problem, but hopefully we win before most decks can find him.

[Bane of the Living]

This deck wins on turns 1-2 and Fanatic is the problem? Is it just because it kills off one Ichorid or am I missing something? I thought Bridge was the decks primary kill condition now.

Daze seems like much more of an issue.

[MattH]

This deck wins on turns 1-2 and Fanatic is the problem? Is it just because it kills off one Ichorid or am I missing something? I thought Bridge was the decks primary kill condition now.

Daze seems like much more of an issue.

They can sac a Fanatic to RFG all the Bridges in your graveyard.

[BreathWeapon]

This deck wins on turns 1-2 and Fanatic is the problem? Is it just because it kills off one Ichorid or am I missing something? I thought Bridge was the decks primary kill condition now.

Daze seems like much more of an issue.

Because Mogg Fanatic RFGs all of your Bridge from Below from your graveyard, which is also the reason you can't remove Ichorid as an alternate win condition from your deck if you want to be able to fight against Goblins.

Counterspells aren't a big deal, assuming you are on the draw, you can just use your maximum hand size and Street Wraith in order to Dredge against them. You'll usually win game one unless they have Jotun Grunt, and in that case you just have to enter your scoop phase.

[Pinder]

This deck wins on turns 1-2 and Fanatic is the problem? Is it just because it kills off one Ichorid or am I missing something? I thought Bridge was the decks primary kill condition now.




Whenever a nontoken creature is put into your graveyard from play, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token into play.
When a creature is put into an opponent's graveyard from play, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, remove Bridge from Below from the game.


:frown:

Anyway, along those lines I was wondering if 1-2 MD Leylines would make any difference at all in protecting your Bridges. It also has the added bonus of helping out against Thresh, and also possibly in the mirror as well. I'm just thinking that at some point a 1st turn Mogg Fanatic is going to ruin your day. and with the maindeck Powders, you should be able to see it turn 0 (hopefully) reliably enough.

[Bane of the Living]

Wow I never got such a quick response by so many people. Ok thanks I forgot about that little clause. Leyline seems like the best option but would you really need it maindeck? The decklist seems so tight as is..

What about removing more Deep Anals for more Carefull Study? It seems to be the more important of the two since its what gets the ball rolling.

[BreathWeapon]

Wow I never got such a quick response by so many people. Ok thanks I forgot about that little clause. Leyline seems like the best option but would you really need it maindeck? The decklist seems so tight as is..

What about removing more Deep Anals for more Carefull Study? It seems to be the more important of the two since its what gets the ball rolling.

Really? I don't think I'd ever cut Deep Anal on the basis that LED + Cephalid Coliseum + Deep Anal is the deck's actual engine. How does Careful Study really do anything?

[Pinder]

Really? I don't think I'd ever cut Deep Anal on the basis that LED + Cephalid Coliseum + Deep Anal is the deck's actual engine. How does Careful Study really do anything?

Huh. I agree with BreathWeapon. Weird.

Careful Study is nice as a draw engine and a discard outlet (which this deck really needs), but I would never get rid of Deep Anals for them. Playing Analysis off of a freshly cracked LED feels like cheating. Also, once you start dredging up a storm, you aren't likely to actually draw into more draw spells, which is why the flashback is so important on DA. Being able to draw two cards for the low low price of 1U without it having to be in your hand is just crazy good.

Also, since the deck is splashing green, has any thought at all been given to LftL? I mean, it's better than Shambling Shell if you're going to run another dredge card, at least. It recurs Coliseums, which is nice, but it would mostly be there as another dredger, which I'm not entirely sure this deck needs after Troll/Stinky/Thug. But I would definitely put it in over the Shell. I mean really.

[BreathWeapon]

I don't think Life from the Loam is better than Shambling Shell unless you're actually abusing it by casting it and recurring Cephalid Coliseum, because Shambling Shell supports Ichorid and Golgari Grave Troll. Shambling Shell isn't the best card in the deck, but the additional Dredge, activations for Ichorid and +1/1 for Troll add up.

Could we design around LftL and Cephalid Coliseum like UberMadness?

[Awesomator]

Careful Study is the weakest Draw spell IMO but still a discard outlet and draws 2, 4 DA is necessary for quick kills.

[edgewalker]

Awsomator, would you say breakthrough>careful study? I've played alot of versions of this deck and I can never seem to like breakthrough, I hate drawing LEDs or other mana sources and having to pitch them to breakthrough

[MattH]

Awsomator, would you say breakthrough>careful study? I've played alot of versions of this deck and I can never seem to like breakthrough, I hate drawing LEDs or other mana sources and having to pitch them to breakthrough

So play your LEDs, then cast Breakthrough. Duh?

[KillemallCFH]

So play your LEDs, then cast Breakthrough. Duh?I think he means that he hates drawing mana sources with the Breakthrough, and then not being able to use them because he has to discard them.

[edgewalker]

Matt, I mean you have no LEDs in hand, you breakthrough, draw lets say and LED and a colesium and then are forced to discard them. I don't know about everyone else, but that makes me die a little inside when I have to do that.

[Awesomator]

It depends on what you're playing against. Usually, once you get the hand in the graveyard you win, unless you're playing vs combo (Unless you hit therapies on dredge or are able to flashback the therapies next turn) or sometimes Goblins.

[Jaynel]

In Vintage Ichorid, you just need Bazaar + Dredge. In this deck, however, you need LED + Deep Anal + Dredge, or LED + Street Wraith + Cephalid Coliseum. I find myself mulliganing way too many times for my liking, often removing multiple Bridges, Ichorids, Narcomoebas, or Grave-Trolls. I don't think Serum Powder fits into this deck, but LED and Deep Analysis obviously belong. I feel like you really don't need to go busted on turn 1. You really don't have anything to worry about against aggro, because you have a MUCH faster clock and some disruption. You can race combo and, again, you have some disruption elements through Cabal Therapy. The control matchup isn't really a big deal, because you have so many discard outlets that a Dredge guy WILL find it's way to the yard eventually. There aren't many good decks that play maindeck Extirpate or Crypt. Graveyard hate during the first game really shouldn't be a problem. The problem I see with Manaless Ichorid is that it will get absolutely whomped by graveyard hate in games 2 and 3 and will just fold. Over the past few days, I've developed this from Manaless Ichorid:

// Semi-Manaless Ichorid
// Lands
4 [U] Underground Sea
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
1 [FS] Dakmor Salvage
4 [FS] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [FS] Narcomoeba
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [TO] Ichorid
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FS] Street Wraith

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [US] Tolarian Winds
4 [FS] Bridge from Below
3 [TS] Dread Return
4 [TO] Deep Analysis

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 3 [VI] Emerald Charm
SB: 2 [U] Tropical Island
SB: 2 [ON] Wooded Foothills

Lands:
Maindeck Dryad Arbors are still being tested. They help ease strain on the sideboard when combating graveyard hate games 2 and 3. However, the manabase seems a little weird right now, and I'm sometimes having trouble getting black mana on turn 1 for a PImp. My old manabase was:

4 Deltas
3 Sea
1 Bayou
4 Coliseum
1 Dakmor Salvage

I might want to go to 3 Arbors and run a Polluted Delta (also good for games 2 and 3).

Dakmor Salvage has been good, and I wouldn't go more than 2 at the absolute most. It lets you get that second land for DA flashback and, strangely enough, has ALWAYS put awesome cards into the bin when I dredge.

Dudes:
Putrid Imp has been great for me. He's another cheap discard outlet and will usually get in for 3-6 damage. He flashes back Dredge Return in a pinch.

Flame-Kin is obviously nuts. 45 damage on turn 4? Sign me up. I think 1 is the right number.

Street Wraith is obviously good. Play LED, cycle Street Wraith, pop LED in response, DREDGE. Solid turn 1 play. Feeds Ichorid.

I don't run Golgari Thugs. I couldn't fit them into the list. I know they're really good, but I wouldn't know what to cut. If you guys could figure out where these can go in (or even if they need to go in), that'd be sweet.

Spells:
The only concern I've had is with Tolarian Winds. Sometimes it provides RETARDED turn 2 plays, but most of the time it just gets LED'd away because I have better options. Breakthrough might be better here.

Sideboard:
Oh, yes. This is where Semi-Manaless Ichorid shines. It can easily bring in the ENITIRE sideboard without diluting the gameplan too much.

If you sense Tormod's Crypt (or have looked at peoples sideboards (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5965) on MWS), just go:

-1 Therapy
-3 Winds
+4 Chalice

and hope to drop that motherfucker as soon as you can at 0. Be careful with LED plays if you already have a Chalice out (i.e. savagely cheat and try to get an irreversable game state). Kidding about that last part. Just don't be stupid and drop Chalice then LED in your opening hand.

When playing against black, always expect the worst: 4 Leyline and 4 Planar Void. Side in the whole package:

-4 Therapy
-3 Winds
-2 PImps
-1 Sea
+4 Reverent Silence
+3 Emerald Charm
+2 Wooded Foothills
+1 Tropical Island

I'm not sure if the sideboarding is right. I don't know when it'd ever be appropriate to side out dredgers or other delicious cards like Bridge. If anyone with some more experience with the deck could help with siding, that'd be cool.

In conclusion, this deck is insane. Bridge from Below is absolutely nuts, LED is completely broken, and Dredge is stupid.

[Awesomator]

Tolarian Winds was something I have been trying out, but it makes the aggro control matchup much worse because of daze. The build you're playing can handle playing Winds. The deck doesn't need to go off turn 1 or 2, but it helps if you have a hand that can. Serum Powder doesn't belong in the deck I agree. I still prefer Breakthrough/Study to Putrid Imps because of the card draw value, not because they're better discard. Chalices might become needles, I'm testing them now.

EDIT: Breathweapon is a Turd

Warned for flaming. This is your second warning. Three warnings = an account ban.

-PR

[Bane of the Living]

EDIT: Breathweapon is a Turd

Yes, sadly this deck is everything Übermadness wishes it was. It drops fat guys into the yard to be played cheap/free with LED unfairness. This deck is much more immune to StP however since your not trying to beat down with a couple 6/6 and 4/4s, but a horde of zombies.

Im liking Jaynels list alot. Underground Sea > Lotus Petal. This deck is fast enough. I usually just want to petal to compliment LED so to cast 2 Deep Anals or provide protection from Daze.

Putrid Imp also seems very needed. Jay the only problem I have with your list is the heavy reliance on LED as the 'madness' outlet. In testing against Thresh all they needed to do was have the FoW for LED and then you were generally screwed. Breakthrough helps but I still want another option.


// Lands
4 Underground Sea
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
3 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Street Wraith

// Spells
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
4 Deep Analysis
4 Breakthrough

[Jaynel]

Putrid Imp also seems very needed. Jay the only problem I have with your list is the heavy reliance on LED as the 'madness' outlet. In testing against Thresh all they needed to do was have the FoW for LED and then you were generally screwed. Breakthrough helps but I still want another option.

I do run Putrid Imps - 4 of them. But you're right, my only outs are Imp, LED, Winds (which eats Daze a lot), and Cephalid Coliseum (which isn't always threshed). There's always the techy play of not doing anything and dumping a dredger in your graveyard turn 2 (a la bad Reanimator).

@ everyone:
What do you think the best number of dredgers is? I run 8, and sometimes I feel like I want more. The list seems really tight though. Any opinions or experience with this?

@ Bane:
How has 10 lands been working for you? Do you ever miss the last Therapy? Has Breakthrough pulled its weight?

[edgewalker]

@Jaynel, I find 10 to be the best number of dredgers. 8 is definately too little, and 12 would be awsome if we had the room.

[BreathWeapon]

EDIT: Breathweapon is a Turd

Is there a reason for this random and unprovoked flame that doesn't warrant a report to the moderators for its adolescence and inability to articulate anything of actual worth?

On to something constructive, I think it's important to use at least a full set of Golgari Thug, i.e. at least 12 Dredgers, in order to be certain that the deck has the odds it needs to draw at least 2 Dredgers for the LED/Deep Analysis play and simultaneously support Ichorid's with enough gas to be a reliable win condition. In this sense, I feel that Dredgers should get the nod over Street Wraith because of their general necessity for fueling the deck's explosive plays and the possibility that the Street Wraith isn't objectively doing anything the deck vitally needs.

How are Putrid Imps working out with only 4 ways of actually casting them?

[Bane of the Living]

Is there a reason for this random and unprovoked flame that doesn't warrant a report to the moderators for its adolescence and inability to articulate anything of actual worth?

On to something constructive, I think it's important to use at least a full set of Golgari Thug, i.e. at least 12 Dredgers, in order to be certain that the deck has the odds it needs to draw at least 2 Dredgers for the LED/Deep Analysis play and simultaneously support Ichorid's with enough gas to be a reliable win condition. In this sense, I feel that Dredgers should get the nod over Street Wraith because of their general necessity for fueling the deck's explosive plays and the possibility that the Street Wraith isn't objectively doing anything the deck vitally needs.

How are Putrid Imps working out with only 4 ways of actually casting them?

Calling you a turd is probably his way of saying changing the deck into Übermadness is a bad idea. I hope you dont get offended by being called a turd. Its not like he called you a turd-sandwich or a turd-burgler. Just a turd.

Putrid Imp is very hard for me to cast right now so Im thinking of dropping them again and going with additional Carefull Studies. A slot is basically needed to just get the ball rolling. Blue needs to be primary due to Coliseum.

Tolarian Winds I actually want to try sbing against decks not running counterspells. Its just not worth it otherwise. It helps dredge a massive amount early against goblins to focus on a Dread Return Troll win or multiple Ichorid attacks. Bridge from Below can maybe come out for it. It doesnt seem like we'd be able to keep it out well enough, or is that course of action still reliable? Ive been testing mostly against Thresh; and btw Tarmagoyf is a serious threat to this deck.

[Binary Star]

Somebody should upgrade this to the open forum.

[Bane of the Living]

In this sense, I feel that Dredgers should get the nod over Street Wraith because of their general necessity for fueling the deck's explosive plays and the possibility that the Street Wraith isn't objectively doing anything the deck vitally needs.

BTW Street Wraith is at his absolute best in this deck. I dont understand how you can climb into a belcher thread and declare it the king of cards when here it has the most functionallity.

The decks most basic play is to play and activate LED with SW's on the stack. Dredging your first couple guys this way for free is key. Every 'draw a card' in this deck powers it up. The only other 'free' dredge you have in the deck is your draw phase and we're aiming for manaless remember?

Lets not forget how much better it is to revive an Ichorid with SW rather than Stinkweed and Thug.

[BreathWeapon]

BTW Street Wraith is at his absolute best in this deck. I dont understand how you can climb into a belcher thread and declare it the king of cards when here it has the most functionallity.

The decks most basic play is to play and activate LED with SW's on the stack. Dredging your first couple guys this way for free is key. Every 'draw a card' in this deck powers it up. The only other 'free' dredge you have in the deck is your draw phase and we're aiming for manaless remember?

Lets not forget how much better it is to revive an Ichorid with SW rather than Stinkweed and Thug.

Because in Belcher Street Wraith is better than the cards its replacing, while in Mana-Less Ichorid it's removing cards that have an equal or abstract comparitive value such as Shambling Shell, Ashen Ghoul, Tolarian Winds, Zombie Infestation, Putrid Imp, Unmask, Force of Will etc. It's a lot more difficult to include Street Wraith in a deck where Street Wraith is replacing a card that could be objectively better even if it isn't directly comparable. I understand that Street Wraith is a perfectly good card, but it's absolutely the last card I would add until I was certain that the rest of the deck's needs were met.

[Bane of the Living]

Because in Belcher Street Wraith is better than the cards its replacing, while in Mana-Less Ichorid it's removing cards that have an equal or abstract comparitive value such as Shambling Shell, Ashen Ghoul, Tolarian Winds, Zombie Infestation, Putrid Imp, Unmask, Force of Will etc. It's a lot more difficult to include Street Wraith in a deck where Street Wraith is replacing a card that could be objectively better even if it isn't directly comparable. I understand that Street Wraith is a perfectly good card, but it's absolutely the last card I would add until I was certain that the rest of the deck's needs were met.

Did you read anything I posted or did you just scurry to a counter arguement? I understand your reasoning for including it in a belcher list. But do you understand the reason why its actually functional in this deck? The free dredge is irriplacable. When the decks goal is to maximize the threat density and dredge capacity the card only compliments your strategy.

Unmask and Force are terrible in the deck. I wouldnt want to add 4 Forces over draw spells or therapies since both are more synergistic to the deck. Therapy allows you to trigger Bridge and put Narcomeabas to good use. I wouldnt want to pitch Deep Anal to Force and I feel the same for Breakthrough. The decks goal is to pitch its hand with LED which completely backhands the strategy of holding force for the key spell.

Zombie Infestation and Tolarian Winds are generally too slow for the deck at this point. We have better options (LED, Bridge).

Shambling Shell is absolutely terrible. Theres a small chance you can actually cast Thug and Stinky to get back Street Wraith or chump block something big. Shambling would be dredger 13-16 which is unneeded and worse than the other 3 options.

Ashen Ghoul is terrible in the deck. He's situational, slow, and requires mana. You realize Ichorid isnt even the primary win condition anymore?

As far as I can see the only cards that have a chance of making it are Dryad Arbor, Carefull Study, Cephalid Sage, Putrid Imp, and Lotus Petal.

[Jaynel]

This deck is far from ready for Open.

@Bane

I agree with all of your points, except the one about Careful Study over Putrid Imp. Sure, you can cast Study off of 8 out of 10 lands, but it's only a one shot deal. Putrid Imp is AMAZING because it's a discard outlet that can be used over and over again. I've found myself Dread Returning a Putrid Imp just so I can have a steady discard outlet on the table. Pitch a dude during upkeep to give the PImp flying, then dredge in draw step is such a good play, especially when you can do it for a few turns until you get better options in your yard (i.e. Flashback DA or just win with tons of hasty 3/3s). Breakthrough is a good enough "Careful Study" for this deck if you're interested in one-shot deals to dump some cards in the yard and maybe dredge. Imp also gets Threshold really fast and gets in for some damage in the early game. Sure, you won't always have PImp and a black mana source, but if you don't then you probably have better plays in hand. PImp can always feed Ichorid once it gets discarded or dredged.

To summarize in a neat pros and cons column:

Pros:
Putrid Imp

Cons:
Careful Study

Okay, seriously. Here it is:

+ Putrid Imp:
Swings for 2
Multiple discards
Incredibly useful in the early game
Moderate use in the late game
Feeds Ichorid

- Putrid Imp
No draw effects = no dredging
Need black mana to play


+ Careful Study
Cast off of blue mana
Draw effects = dredge
Incredibly useful in the early game

- Careful Study
Does absolutely nothing in the graveyard
Useless in the late game
One time discard effect

I think PImp is the right choice.

[BreathWeapon]

Did you read anything I posted or did you just scurry to a counter arguement? I understand your reasoning for including it in a belcher list. But do you understand the reason why its actually functional in this deck? The free dredge is irriplacable. When the decks goal is to maximize the threat density and dredge capacity the card only compliments your strategy.

Unmask and Force are terrible in the deck. I wouldnt want to add 4 Forces over draw spells or therapies since both are more synergistic to the deck. Therapy allows you to trigger Bridge and put Narcomeabas to good use. I wouldnt want to pitch Deep Anal to Force and I feel the same for Breakthrough. The decks goal is to pitch its hand with LED which completely backhands the strategy of holding force for the key spell.

Zombie Infestation and Tolarian Winds are generally too slow for the deck at this point. We have better options (LED, Bridge).

Shambling Shell is absolutely terrible. Theres a small chance you can actually cast Thug and Stinky to get back Street Wraith or chump block something big. Shambling would be dredger 13-16 which is unneeded and worse than the other 3 options.

Ashen Ghoul is terrible in the deck. He's situational, slow, and requires mana. You realize Ichorid isnt even the primary win condition anymore?

As far as I can see the only cards that have a chance of making it are Dryad Arbor, Carefull Study, Cephalid Sage, Putrid Imp, and Lotus Petal.

You missed the point, I wasn't advocating that those cards should replace Street Wraith, but that there are other cards to consider in Street Wraith's place and that the answer isn't as clear cut as you would make it seem. Under the premise that the point of Street Wraith is to maximize the deck's Dredge capacity, is there really a clear indication that it's superior to Shambling Shell or Cephalid Sage at Dredging or Careful Study at setting up your Dredge?

You realize that what I'm getting at when I say that a hand that has GGT and Street Wraith isn't necessarily as good as a hand with GGT and Thug when you are popping LED/DA, right?

[Bane of the Living]

You missed the point, I wasn't advocating that those cards should replace Street Wraith, but that there are other cards to consider in Street Wraith's place and that the answer isn't as clear cut as you would make it seem. Under the premise that the point of Street Wraith is to maximize the deck's Dredge capacity, is there really a clear indication that it's superior to Shambling Shell or Cephalid Sage at Dredging or Careful Study at setting up your Dredge?

You realize that what I'm getting at when I say that a hand that has GGT and Street Wraith isn't necessarily as good as a hand with GGT and Thug when you are popping LED/DA, right?

Im sorry I thought you were recommending other cards for the Street Wraith slot and still seem to be. Where do you get the idea he needs to go? None of us have been complaining about him in the deck. Infact he's MvP if you ask me.

He maximizes dredge capacity because he draws a card for free, letting you do other things with your mana such as cast Breakthough or activate Coliseum. Stuffing 16 dredge creatures into the deck wont make it work better, you'll just get stuck with too many and no business spells. Chephalid Sage needs to be in the bin already and get Dread Returned to be of any use. A turn one staple dredge enabler is far more important and I see no need to further debate his automatic inclusion as a four of.

A hand with GGT and SW is much better than GGT + Thug hand. With GGT/Thug you pop LED and discard them then either wait till your next draw phase or hopefully had a Deep Anal as well. A hand with GGT + SW can immediatly dredge 6 cards by putting the SW on the stack and popping LED. You'll usually chain into several dredge cards this way anyways.

[Bovinious]

I've been trying a version of this deck out on MWS, and to me it seems horribly inconsistent compared to just regular Friggorid. I mean sure if you draw LED, DA, dredger and u get LED and DA to resolve sure ull prolly win turn 1-2, but even with Serum powder to find LED/DA I dont see how this deck is consistent at all too often I have to mull to oblivion. Maybe its the list i was running (mine was similar to what is on the first post). Some other versions here that add more mana and 1 CC spells/Imps seem like theyre trying to do too much with both Friggorid like stuff and LED, seems like you would be better off playing Friggorid. Am I missing something?

[BreathWeapon]

Im sorry I thought you were recommending other cards for the Street Wraith slot and still seem to be. Where do you get the idea he needs to go? None of us have been complaining about him in the deck. Infact he's MvP if you ask me.

He maximizes dredge capacity because he draws a card for free, letting you do other things with your mana such as cast Breakthough or activate Coliseum. Stuffing 16 dredge creatures into the deck wont make it work better, you'll just get stuck with too many and no business spells. Chephalid Sage needs to be in the bin already and get Dread Returned to be of any use. A turn one staple dredge enabler is far more important and I see no need to further debate his automatic inclusion as a four of.

A hand with GGT and SW is much better than GGT + Thug hand. With GGT/Thug you pop LED and discard them then either wait till your next draw phase or hopefully had a Deep Anal as well. A hand with GGT + SW can immediatly dredge 6 cards by putting the SW on the stack and popping LED. You'll usually chain into several dredge cards this way anyways.

I never I said that I thought that Street Wraith should be removed from the deck, I said that I don't think that Street Wraith should be the first card in the deck, and it's not clear to me that he's better than the alternatives. I don't think that Dredger + Street Wraith is better than 2xDredger tho', because with an average Dredge of 5 there's a strong chance that you'll miss another Dredger in your discard pile and that Dredger may miss a Dredger etc. Shambling Shell has really saved my ass in numerous instances because of his odd Dredge, and that's the reason I'm really hesitant to cut him. Your mileage may very, but I think getting 2 Dredgers in your hand is more important than getting a Dredger and a Street Wraith with the way the original deck was built.

[Tacosnape]

You realize that what I'm getting at when I say that a hand that has GGT and Street Wraith isn't necessarily as good as a hand with GGT and Thug when you are popping LED/DA, right?

Um, not necessarily.

With a hand of LED/Deep Analysis/Wraith/GGT, you can do the following:

1. Play LED
2. Announce the cycling Street Wraith.
3. Crack the LED in response to the cycle, floating blue mana and discarding Golgari Grave-Troll Deep Analysis.
4. Dredge the Golgari Grave-Troll off the Street Wraith's trigger, rolling you six cards into your graveyard. Chances are you'll roll into at least one more dredger off this.
5. Play Deep Analysis, dredging if you got the extra dude.

[Bane of the Living]

BreathWeapon perhaps you'd like to reveil your list to us. Im curious to see what it looks like if its running 13+ dredge creatures. You dont really need to dredge other dredge cards into the bin as much as just business cards and this is why we use SW so effectivly. He allows for the earliest possible dredging. Theres a huge difference between starting a game with and without him.

What do you guys think about Phantasmagorian? He helps you discard everything and rfg's to Ichorid.

[Awesomator]

phantasmagorian is decent, but I doubt it's better than any of the slots currently in. Good job breathweapon.. Street Wraith shouldn't be the first card in the deck.. bridge from below should be.

[BreathWeapon]

BreathWeapon perhaps you'd like to reveil your list to us. Im curious to see what it looks like if its running 13+ dredge creatures. You dont really need to dredge other dredge cards into the bin as much as just business cards and this is why we use SW so effectivly. He allows for the earliest possible dredging. Theres a huge difference between starting a game with and without him.

What do you guys think about Phantasmagorian? He helps you discard everything and rfg's to Ichorid.

This is the rough list I'm using,

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Underground Sea
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dread Return
4 Deep Analysis
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 (Open)

And from there I shift the open slots in between Shambling Shells, Street Wraiths, Cephalid Sage/Flame Kin Zealot to figure out what's the best Dredge card in that slot.

[Bovinious]

@ BreathWeapon: I was playing a list very similar to yours today on MWS with pretty good success, but I was wondering why there are 4 Underground Sea, wouldn't they just be better off as Islands so wasteland doesn't hurt as much? the only use I can see black mana having is MAYBE hardcast cabal therapy once in a while but that seems like a really desperate situation to be in, almost worse than EOT discard on urself, altho you could use on opponent too...Is there any black in yalls sideboard or are the Useas just in there for therapy?

[BreathWeapon]

I don't care if the opponent Wastelands the land, because as long as that land resolved Breakthrough, it did its job against Goblins. I do care that if I have a Cabal Therapy in hand, I can cast it to protect the outlet from Force of Will as opposed to discard/dredging and letting my opponent find a Jotun Grunt or Tormod's Crypt.

So I guess to sum it up, what is Wasteland hurting?

[Bovinious]

I was thinking maybe you would want it to stay around if you drew a hand with Land, Coliseum, Careful Study, in some cases wasteland could inhibit you from activating the Coliseum turn 2, or in some rare cases for the cause of flashing back DA with 2 lands. I guess these situations would come up even less often than Therapy being useful from the hand, so maybe it is worth it.

[Bane of the Living]

Ive been using Therapy on myself quite a bit. Sometimes Ill get stuck with 2 Bridge in my hand or have my Grave Trolls in hand with Dread Return ready to get him into play. Being able to actually cast it is more significant than Wasteland.

Meddling Mage on Deep Analysis hurts this deck alot. Heres my updated ever changing list yet again..

4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Underground Sea
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Breakthrough
2 Putrid Imp
1 Flame Kin Zealot
4 Dread Return
4 Deep Analysis
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Street Wraith

Im testing Chrome Mox over more lands and petals since theyre perm mana sources and still allow you to activate Coliseum turn one. Its usefull to imprint Narcomeabas and such. The couple extra Putrid Imps are nice discard outlets. Still not sold on this list tho. =/

[Jaynel]

Breakthrough is in my list over Tolarian Winds now. Its a solid turn one play - a One With Nothing plus four cards from the top of your library. It gets even nuttier when LED is involved, because you get to dredge a LOT on your first turn. If you can get LED + Breakthrough and any dredger on turn 1, you're looking at a turn 2-3 win.

My list now:

Manas:
4 Underground Sea
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Polluted Delta

Men:
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

Dredgers:
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug

Draw that never actually draws:
4 Street Wraith
4 Deep Analysis
4 Breakthrough

Holy fuck why did they print these :
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return


Sideboard/Anti Graveyard Hate:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Reverent Silence
3 Emerald Charm
2 Tropical Island
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Wooded Foothills

I've gotten rid of Dryad Arbors maindeck. They kinda suck, actually. They're good in Vintage because you literally NEVER pay mana for a spell. This deck needs a good turn 1 play that involves blue or black mana, and Dryad Arbor was never able to provide it. I was always unhappy whenever I had a great hand... but only Arbor as a mana source. So, the manabase has been adjusted accordingly to maximize the availability of blue and black mana on turn 1.

I run 10 Dredgers (6-5-4, obv) and I feel a lot more comfortable. I very rarely whiff when I go to dredge. When I was running 8, I'd sometimes go in on a Deep Anal with only one dredge guy in the yard, and end up having to draw a card with Deep Analysis (which, undoubtedly, was always Golgari Grave-Troll). Now my hands start with at least one Dredger and I can feel reasonable certain that another one will be in the next few cards.

Thats about it. It would be nice to fit in another FKZ, but it's not a high priority. I've sometimes had to dig really deep to get him into the yard. It's sometimes a pain in the ass, but I'm just bitching. It's not a huge issue.

I already talked about Breakthrough. It dodges Daze and stupid stuff like that. Its effect isn't optimal obviously, but I see no better option for a 1cc slot. Careful Study is a shitty version of this card. If Careful Study discarded then drew, it would most likely be in over this.

Serum Powder, in my opinion, still sucks the big one. I really don't think it's the right direction to be going with this deck.

On another note, I was going through one of my boxes yesterday and I found a Golgari Thug and a Flame-Kin Zealot. That 2 less really narrow cards that I need for this deck. Sweet.

[Maveric78f]

What are your sideboards ?

I would play something like this :
4*Leyline otV (because fanatic is a pain)
4*Chain of vapor (because Leyline is a pain)
4*Needle (because tormod is a pain)
3*island (because I don't play enough lands to play answers)

[Bane of the Living]

Ive been testing the two most important matchups (Thresh + Gobs) quite a bit. Heres my developed list..

4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Dread Return
1 Flame Kin Zealot

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Deep Analysis
3 Breakthrough

3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomeaba
4 Street Wraith

4 LED
4 Underground Sea
1 Polluted Delta
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Cephalid Coliseum

My list is extremely close to Jaynels right now. I have a different land, one more dredger, and I maindeck Leyline over Imps.

Leyline became key to matchups since it basically allows you to slow roll into an innevitable win. We were testing a version of Thresh that had Counterbalance to hit Therapy and Pyroclasm to deal with Zombies. They still stood no chance. I got turn 2 and 3 kills when LED resolved, turn 4-5 when it didnt. You can really slow down Mongoose with Leyline altho Tarmagoyf is still a threat. I can often throw Narcomeabas and Zombies in his way till I animate an army.

Goblins became far better since Bridge cant be removed however I have a lack of lackey answers since Im not running Putrid Imp. Honestly though I have no problem going to 8 cards and discarding to get the game in motion. The fact Bridge stays is so so key.

Here's my sb at the moment..

3 Pithing Needle
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Blazing Archon
1 Sundering Titan
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Unmask

Chalice and Unmask take care of combo while Chalice and Needle hit Crypt. Chain of Vapor is my only answer to Leyline but this deck is so broken Ill rightfully take the unfavorable Leyline when I see it.

Im beginning to have second thoughts about Serum Powder actually. Ive been playing with the card alot in belcher and its use is mirrored in this deck. Getting the LED hand will just win you the game usually.

Ive also contemplated a singleton One with Nothing just for laughs because its literally playable..

[Bane of the Living]

I just won a tournament with the deck Sunday.

Round 1 Stax

This is a necroling we brought with us who I lent geddon stax. I went 2-0 against him in playtesting before we got paired for our game. He turns around and kicks my ass in the real tourny by dropping early Ghostly Prisons and killing me with Magus and Duskrider Peregrines.

Round 2 Boros
I can tell his deck sucks and only worry about getting Leyline going. I start with it both games and Ichorids and Zombies kill him easily. Game 2 I do it again with some help from Darkblast.

Round 3 Thresh
This is my gf Jessi playing playing a new version of thresh with counterbalance and the gofy. Shes prepared for Empty the Warrens and my zombies by making a small splash for Pyroclasm. I still take both games, but the second was close when I was at 8 about to die from 2 7/8 goyfs. Hes so big against us..

Round 4 Stax
Its the same kid. This time I womp him easy game one. Game two he dropps a Ghostly Prison. I combo into Dread Return to get a 9/9 troll. I sadly start to you my draw phase the way its intended to get some mana. I dredge back a Dakmor Salvage and draw into an underground a couple turns later. Then he drops a Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale. I sadly keep drawing cards. 2 more and I see another land. 5-6 attack phases and chump blocks later the troll does the job.

I split for 1st/2nd with my teammate playing Death and Taxes.

[Iranon]

I have been getting better results with Ashen Ghouls and Nether Shadows over Narcomoeba and Golgari Thug.

I also found a full complement of Breakthrough and Careful study more relevant than a way to keep going once you get going (Deep Analysis is quite mana-hungry as well).

Am I overlooking something and playing the deck wrong?

[Illissius]

I was at 8 about to die from 2 7/8 goyfs

Which of you was playing Bound in Silence?

[DrJones]

What about running "The Tabernacle at the Pendrell Vale"?

[Windux]

What about running "The Tabernacle at the Pendrell Vale"?

Killing your own Tokens is not the way to go.
Also it doesn't make mana, so it has no synergy at all.

[Maveric78f]

Which of you was playing Bound in Silence?

Lol.

I'm sure now that leyline MD is the way to go. It will probably slow your opponent more than you and it prevents you from losing on a fanatic.

[Bane of the Living]

Lol.

I'm sure now that leyline MD is the way to go. It will probably slow your opponent more than you and it prevents you from losing on a fanatic.

Ok they were 6/7's they did see all the 'classic' card types.

MD Leyline is so huge its basically all you need against aggro decks. Its also a nice foil to Iggy, Loam, and Reanimator.

Tabernacle sucks since it kills your zombies. If you want a gimicky land add Dryad Arbor or Mishras Factory. Both can flashback Dread Return and Therapy. Arbor is obviously the way to go if your playing green enchantment hate.

@Iranon
Its very possible your miss playing or keeping mediocre cards. I did this for a while actually. It can be easy to misplay.

First pick up either my, Jaynel, or Awesomator's build. All are solid, I think the differences are mostly preference. Try to find yourself hands that look like..

1 LED
1 Deep Analysis
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Golgari Thug
3 ?

Hands like this are elementary. Drop your land and LED; sac for 3 blue discarding your hand, flashback the DA to start dredging.

1 Underground Sea
1 Breakthrough/Street Wraith
1 Golgari Grave Troll
4 ?

When this is all there is to start with Ill often draw my card and go to my discard phase. Get the fatty in the tank then start with a dredge next upkeep or start a dredge up immediately with a Street Wraith.

2 LED
1 Breakthrough
1 Coliseum
1 Golgari Grave Troll
2 ?

These are the super broken hands you always want. Whether or not LED gets FoW'ed you have another one. If Chalice for zero is out you still have Breakthrough to start you off. In this particular example you can start with your land and LEDs, put Breakthrough on the stack and sac an LED so you start your Breakthrough draws with a dredge.

2 Street Wraith
1 Golgari Grave Troll
1 Deep Analysis
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Underground Sea
1 ?

These are nice hands as long as you know what your doing. Rather than mindlessly cycle into nothing sit on 8 cards and discard the troll on discard phase. Altho you'll feel like a fool sitting doing nothing for 1-2 turns your street wraiths will accelerate the lost dredging quite easily.

1 LED
1 Street Wraith
1 Leyline
1 Gravetroll
3 ?

Ill usually keep a hand like this too. You get your leyline opener and you have an outlet for your whole hand. Start by playing LED then crack it with your SW cycle on the start to get the troll dredged.

The more games you play the more comfortable you'll start to feel with hands and realize your plays easier.

Ashen Ghouls just wont do anymore. Your aiming for manaless so you cant depend on having black mana for him to recur. Its also a problem getting him stacked under other creatures, likewise for Nether Shadow. You dont get to choose what you dredge your already gambling, having to rely on the order of your dredging is even worse.

Also Ichorid is a total backup plan now. Bridge is the real contender.

Hope that helps a little.

[Peter_Rotten]

For your consideration, here is a list that took first place at a large German tourney:

Main Deck
4 Breakthrough
1 Cephalid Sage
4 Deep Analysis
4 Narcomoeba
1 Wonder
4 Bridge from Below
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Underground Sea
4 Watery Grave

Sideboard
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle


That single Wonder could be really techy.

[MattH]

Wow, almost my exact list. I was using fetches over Grave, but still.

[clavio]

I think the sideboard absolutely needs some way to deal with enchantments other than bounce. I can think of 4 enchantments off the top of my head that totally hose this deck (in 3 different colors too).

Cabal therapy should be a four of.

Why is this still in N/D?

[Bane of the Living]

Why is this still in N/D?

Because IBA didnt post it. Maybe PR will move it for us? I just took another tournament with the deck this weekend. Maybe that will help.

Round 1
R/g Goblins

Game 1 I get Leyline and win easily on turn 3.

Game 2 I suspect Crypt and bring in 3 Needle 4 Chalice.
Gobs opens with Crypt, Chalice@0, Lackey. I lose after a short struggle.

Game 3 I win turn 1.

Round 2
Death and Taxes
Pete wins every tournament he brings this deck to but Ive got a good game against it. I see nothing both games, he has super necro tech which hoses my strategy.
One of these games I mull to 4 or so. Lame.
I just need to win the rest.. This is the first non Belcher/TES deck thats beaten me with this deck. Fuckin D&T.

Round 3
Brain fart.. I forget but I trounced it, Ill get back to you.

Top 4
Im very happy I avoided the 2 stax decks since Ghostly Prison = scoop.

Round 4
Fuckin Brian playing U/G Madness
Both games were easy. Zombies beat the shit out of everything. Game one was elementary. I combo into a huge grave troll and like 4 zombies.
Game 2 He opens up with 2 Crypts (im on draw with Chalice in hand =( )
I apply a little pressure by going to 8 cards and tossing stinky in the bin. I dredge into a bridge and ichorid. I give slow beats till he crypts. I do it again and he crypts again. Then I dump the LED into play and unload my hand and win.

Ichorid is broken. Playing through 2 Tormod's Crypts? WTF!?!

[Lukas Preuss]

Yes, fellow team aYb member Florian "FlodO" Fischer just went undefeated (6-0-1 in the Swiss) in a 74 people tournament in Dülmen, Germany (http://www.trader-online.de/turniere/Decks/2007-07-T15.html).

He didn't do much testing before the tournament, just some brainstorming with the lists that we discussed on the aYb forums. The deck is extremely strong.

[zulander]

Breakthrough is in my list over Tolarian Winds now. Its a solid turn one play
How are you actually playing tolarian winds turn 1? I don't see any mana accel for you to cast it turn 1.

[Eldariel]

How are you actually playing tolarian winds turn 1? I don't see any mana accel for you to cast it turn 1.

He's saying, Breakthrough is a solid turn 1 play.

[zulander]

He's saying, Breakthrough is a solid turn 1 play.
I don't know how to read apparently. I thought he was saying he had a breakthrough in his list and that breakthrough was tolarian winds. Lol...

[Adan]

Because IBA didnt post it. Maybe PR will move it for us? I just took another tournament with the deck this weekend. Maybe that will help.

Round 1
R/g Goblins

Game 1 I get Leyline and win easily on turn 3.

Game 2 I suspect Crypt and bring in 3 Needle 4 Chalice.
Gobs opens with Crypt, Chalice@0, Lackey. I lose after a short struggle.

Game 3 I win turn 1.

Round 2
Death and Taxes
Pete wins every tournament he brings this deck to but Ive got a good game against it. I see nothing both games, he has super necro tech which hoses my strategy.
One of these games I mull to 4 or so. Lame.
I just need to win the rest.. This is the first non Belcher/TES deck thats beaten me with this deck. Fuckin D&T.

Round 3
Brain fart.. I forget but I trounced it, Ill get back to you.

Top 4
Im very happy I avoided the 2 stax decks since Ghostly Prison = scoop.

Round 4
Fuckin Brian playing U/G Madness
Both games were easy. Zombies beat the shit out of everything. Game one was elementary. I combo into a huge grave troll and like 4 zombies.
Game 2 He opens up with 2 Crypts (im on draw with Chalice in hand =( )
I apply a little pressure by going to 8 cards and tossing stinky in the bin. I dredge into a bridge and ichorid. I give slow beats till he crypts. I do it again and he crypts again. Then I dump the LED into play and unload my hand and win.

Ichorid is broken. Playing through 2 Tormod's Crypts? WTF!?!

What does your list look like?

[Nightmare]

Moved to open. Decklist is fairly optimized, and has shown good placings in large events as well as more localized events in Mass.

(In the future, rather than whining about a deck being in N&D, you could PM a mod or admin and ask for it to be moved.)

[BreathWeapon]

The German list is so strong, I've been using it - the singletons for a full set of Cabal Therapy, Dread Return and Golgari Thug and Putrid Imp seems to be the key to consistency. He adds an outlet, an engine, accelerates Dread Return, enables Cabal Therapy and doesn't require you to discard your entire hand all at once, so 2 lands and a Putrid Imp can be used to set up a Deep Analysis for the second turn. 8 lands also lets the deck stop to use Cabal Therapy and clear the way for an outlet while hitting the second land drop.

I'm not a fan of Cephalid Sage or Flame-Kin Zealot, but post board 2 Wonders give the chance for Ichorid and Grave Troll to win the game in the air. Too much emphasis is being put on Bridge from Below when Ichorid and Grave Troll can win the game with out them, leaving Mogg Fanatic as a minor nuisance and Zoo burning the deck's own creatures as a major tempo gain.

Dakmor Salvage is the 61st card ATM, I'm not certain how consistent it is to Dredge Dakmor Salvage and then cast Deep Analysis on the following turn, but it certainly seems powerful when it happens.

SBing Force of Will is great against combo, they will gleefully walk into it for you and give you a chance to win, and you can hold onto it while you use your maximum hand size to Dredge and discard for you, until your opponent gives you a chance to cast it.

I'm a big fan of the 8 lands and 8 non-LED outlets, singletons aside, which are a matter of preference, that structure looks like the way to go.

[Peter_Rotten]

I'm not a fan of Cephalid Sage or Flame-Kin Zealot.

Man, I found FKZ to be mucho fuerte. He is like your I WIN button. Sac some irrelevant critters and then swing for the haste-y win. I'd leave at least 1 in the deck.

[BreathWeapon]

Man, I found FKZ to be mucho fuerte. He is like your I WIN button. Sac some irrelevant critters and then swing for the haste-y win. I'd leave at least 1 in the deck.

The thing is, replacing him with Wonder lets the deck factor in the Ichorid and Golgari Grave Troll to the damage count and win in increments instead of being stuck behind an Engineered Explosives catching the flack from Empty the Warrens. Speed never seems to be the issue for me, because Cabal Therapy is stripping the opponent's hand bare, so just attacking with Ichorid, Dread Returning Golgari Grave-Troll, generating Zombie Tokens and then attacking in the air with all three threats is just as good.

Going with FKZ seems strong, but it bottle necks the deck into a single avenue of attack that the opponent can exploit compared to Wonder, I hate not being able to attack with Ichorid just because getting blocked will remove the Bridge from Below.

I guess the cards aren't mutually exclusive, but I really don't see the need for FKZ when the deck is as inevitable as it gets.

[Bane of the Living]

My rule of thumb is to just ignore what Breath Weapon pushes into each thread.
Warned for flaming. - Zilla

Force of Will is terrible in a deck that wants to discard its hand.

Telling us Flame Kin Zealot sucking is an obvious tip off that he doesnt know wwhats going on. He's talking about winning with grave troll and ichorids. How silly.

Wonder looks like tech but I assure you your better off running Leyline maindeck to keep the bridges around. Your men can swarm and out muscle any army. Even Empty the Warrens armies. Wonder needs an island in play. Having an island is not very manaless of you. Your making a mistake somewhere.

As of now this is the only deck Ill be playing across the formats. The deck is absurdly over powered and its general strategy is immune to creature hate, counterspells, and yard hate. I wont be sharing my decklist here anymore to keep tech under wraps but Ill be more than happy to guide discussion in the right direction.

Glad to see the deck in open. Ill expect it in the LMF in a couple more months.

[BreathWeapon]

My rule of thumb is to just ignore what Breath Weapon pushes into each thread. Force of Will is terrible in a deck that wants to discard its hand.

Telling us Flame Kin Zealot sucking is an obvious tip off that he doesnt know wwhats going on. He's talking about winning with grave troll and ichorids. How silly.

Wonder looks like tech but I assure you your better off running Leyline maindeck to keep the bridges around. Your men can swarm and out muscle any army. Even Empty the Warrens armies. Wonder needs an island in play. Having an island is not very manaless of you. Your making a mistake somewhere.

As of now this is the only deck Ill be playing across the formats. The deck is absurdly over powered and its general strategy is immune to creature hate, counterspells, and yard hate. I wont be sharing my decklist here anymore to keep tech under wraps but Ill be more than happy to guide discussion in the right direction.

Glad to see the deck in open. Ill expect it in the LMF in a couple more months.

And my general rule of thumb is to disregard pre-pubescent adolescents that use Magic forums to boost their ego by sleighting others thru' the safety of the internet.
Warned for flaming. The proper way to deal with disrespectful behavior is to PM a moderator. Also, an adolescent is, by definition, post-pubescent. - Zilla

What's even more amusing is that you've completely contradicted yourself by admitting that you used Serum Powder in Belcher and then reconsidered using Serum Powder in Ichorid afterwards in the same thread.

So instead of counting on one of eight Islands to support Wonder and disregard the opponent's board, we should count on one of four Leylines of the Void that have no function other than to stall into Dread Return, Bridge from Below and Flame Kin Zealot that can be held off with the most common sweepers in the format? Islands are supporting Breakthrough, Putrid Imp, Deep Analysis and Cabal Therapy while Leyline of the Void isn't doing a thing against the most prevalent archetypes other than protecting you from your over reliance on Bridge from Below (we could argue about the "disruption" Leyline of the Void affords to death, but none of your critical match ups seem to be concerned with it nor is it the actual purpose of the card in the deck).

Yes, I prefer to use Ichorids, Dread Return with Golgari Grave Troll and Bridge from Below backed with Wonder to create a triple pronged threat against the opponent that doesn't require a Leyline of the Void in my opening hand, can't be stopped with a single incidental hate card aimed at another threat in the environment (Engineered Explosives vs Empty the Warrens) while being able to pressure the opponent. While others prefer to use the Ichorid shell on limited mana (8 as opposed to 12 sources) as a combo engine for Bridge from Below and Flame Kin Zealot, I've seen this approach fail in Vintage along with the rest of the Vintage community, and I don't care to emulate that failure in another format.

I'm not disregarding either Leyline of the Void or Flame Kin Zealot, I SB both of them, but I'm questioning the wisdom of relying on an extremely temper mental combination of cards: Leyline of the Void, a mana source, an outlet, 3 creatures, Dread Return, X Bridge from Below, 1 Flame Kin Zealot as opposed to facilitating the other significant threats in the deck to join the fray. The best approach is to no doubt draw upon a combination of additional lands, outlets, Wonder, Flame Kin Zealot and Leyline of the Void based on the deck's needs, which is the conclusion I reached in the previous post, and that seems to be the same sentiment used in the winning deck list, which I'll give more credence to than your personal opinions for the moment.

As far as Force of Will is concerned, it's simple deduction to determine its usefulness, Ichorid is a combo deck that is slower than the rest of the combo decks in the format, and as such it's asking to be over run by them. Ichorid has a conundrum, it wants to be on the draw in order to facilitate Threshold for LED + Cephalid Coliseum to match the speed of other combo decks, but in order to do that Ichorid has to concede the first turn, which is counter productive. Circumventing this draw back is Force of Will, which takes advantage of opposing combo disregarding their disruption in favor of speed by Mind Twisting their hand after the activation of Lion's Eye Diamond. Ichorid can either gain tempo by forcing the opponent to use disruption (most likely Xantid Swarm, Orim's Chant or Blasts if the opponent even bothered to keep/SB them in) or assume a control role by using the maximum hand size to dredge/discard and slow roll the combo player. You force them into a position where they have to commit themselves first, and they most likely will not commit themselves to LED unless they have to (at least the second time after they've been surprised by Force of Will) so you wait for them to drop Empty the Warrens and then explode, or Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns and waste their tutor, mana and time on trying to reset your hand and discard pile. Combo is put into a reactive position that it doesn't want to be in nor does it expect.

You can go the reverse route and run Unmask and Chalice of the Void instead of the Cabal Therapy, Putrid Imp (Street Wraith) or Watery Grave (Leyline of the Void) slots, but that requires you to be on the play, lose Threshold, lose consistency with no ability to bluff. And that's fine for you I guess, but I wouldn't want to be in a position where I lose game one to an opposing combo deck going for Diminishing Returns after I've expended my hand (and you'd have to be really lucky to hit a Narcomoeba and Cabal Therapy for LED let alone know what to name) and then rely on my opponent to not some how rape me on game three before I have a chance to interact. Believe me, nothing sucks more than being in the combo mirror and the opponent going straight for a Diminishing Returns just to stick you with a random hand and generate virtual card advantage off of Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal and another land drop. If they really hate you, they'll considering wishing for Morning Tide (it's a possible port from the TEPS vs Ichorid match up that serves to eliminate Force of Will in the discard pile and deflate Tarmogoyf with out costing 2UU as well)

We're all impressed that deck has managed to get to a point where it's consistent, but a lot of its problems haven't been addressed/encountered as of yet in this format (Vintage players will know the dynamics of the Pitch Long vs Ichorid match up). I'd rather not run a card that shores up the aggro match up (namely Goblins and Affinity) while doing nothing against the rest of the field (since you feed Tarmogoyf and combo is going for Diminishing Returns any way) over cards that are useful in every match up. Force of Will has an exact and sensible plan behind it, and I fail to see giving Ichorid the option of assuming the control role in the combo mirror warrants such indignant remarks.

This deck is more or less a glass cannon, because if it challenges other combo decks then those combo decks will SB Leyline of the Void (it already has precedence with Ill Gotten Gains) and if it challenges the rest of the decks then they'll at least consider similar measures. I have no doubt it will be good, but I'm siding with Menendian when he says it will never be tier 1.

[Samshire]

So instead of counting on one of eight Islands to support Wonder and disregard the opponent's board, we should count on one of four Leylines of the Void that have no function other than to stall into Dread Return, Bridge from Below and Flame Kin Zealot that can be held off with the most common sweepers in the format? Islands are supporting Breakthrough, Putrid Imp, Deep Analysis and Cabal Therapy while Leyline of the Void isn't doing a thing against the most prevalent archetypes other than protecting you from your over reliance on Bridge from Below (we could argue about the "disruption" Leyline of the Void affords to death, but none of your critical match ups seem to be concerned with it nor is it the actual purpose of the card in the deck).

most common sweepers in the format, eh? last time I checked, Pyroclasm (the most common 'sweeper' in the format) was not instant. Most of the sweepers you are thinking of usually only deal with 1/1 creatures, not 3/3's. Engineered Explosives being the exception.
And good luck casting Putrid Imp off of Islands


Yes, I prefer to use Ichorids, Dread Return with Golgari Grave Troll and Bridge from Below backed with Wonder to create a triple pronged threat against the opponent that doesn't require a Leyline of the Void in my opening hand, can't be stopped with a single incidental hate card aimed at another threat in the environment (Engineered Explosives vs Empty the Warrens) while being able to pressure the opponent. While others prefer to use the Ichorid shell on limited mana (8 as opposed to 12 sources) as a combo engine for Bridge from Below and Flame Kin Zealot, I've seen this approach fail in Vintage along with the rest of the Vintage community, and I don't care to emulate that failure in another format.

oh wow, yeah Sandstorm and rain of blades won't stop Ichorid-oh wait it does because Ichorid has a toughness of 1. and Grave Trolls will be dealt with the same way people will deal with Tarmogoyf, Swords to Plowshares. Furthermore, depending on winning with these creatures makes your deck slower, giving your opponent time to find answers.


Ichorid is a combo deck that is slower than the rest of the combo decks in the format

Whatever the hell you are playing, it isn't a combo deck.




This deck is more or less a glass cannon, because if it challenges other combo decks then those combo decks will SB Leyline of the Void (it already has precedence with Ill Gotten Gains) and if it challenges the rest of the decks then they'll at least consider similar measures. I have no doubt it will be good, but I'm siding with Menendian when he says it will never be tier 1.

yes, Ichorid is going to bring the Legacy Community to it's knees and force everyone to run Leylines of the Void in their sideboard, whether or not they run black.

That was sarcasm, I feel the need to point this out because it seems your limited intelligence probably wouldn't recognize it. in simpler terms, I think you are a dumb ass.

Thanks for the extremely long forum post, most of it was unnecessary and it was such a bother to read. One of the keys to good writing is writing what you want to say in as few words as possible. You just can't do that.

Furthermore, could you please stop posting stupid things? My friends keep on annoying me by saying 'LAWL! BREATHWEAPON MADE ANOTHER POAST!! LOTZ OF LAWLZZZ!!! I LAWL'D!!' and it's really contributing to the noise pollution (yes they are quite loud). So please, either stop saying these stupid things or stop posting
Warned for flaming. - Zilla

[BreathWeapon]

most common sweepers in the format, eh? last time I checked, Pyroclasm (the most common 'sweeper' in the format) was not instant. Most of the sweepers you are thinking of usually only deal with 1/1 creatures, not 3/3's. Engineered Explosives being the exception.
And good luck casting Putrid Imp off of Islands



oh wow, yeah Sandstorm and rain of blades won't stop Ichorid-oh wait it does because Ichorid has a toughness of 1. and Grave Trolls will be dealt with the same way people will deal with Tarmogoyf, Swords to Plowshares. Furthermore, depending on winning with these creatures makes your deck slower, giving your opponent time to find answers.



Whatever the hell you are playing, it isn't a combo deck.





yes, Ichorid is going to bring the Legacy Community to it's knees and force everyone to run Leylines of the Void in their sideboard, whether or not they run black.

That was sarcasm, I feel the need to point this out because it seems your limited intelligence probably wouldn't recognize it. in simpler terms, I think you are a dumb ass.

Thanks for the extremely long forum post, most of it was unnecessary and it was such a bother to read. One of the keys to good writing is writing what you want to say in as few words as possible. You just can't do that.

Furthermore, could you please stop posting stupid things? My friends keep on annoying me by saying 'LAWL! BREATHWEAPON MADE ANOTHER POAST!! LOTZ OF LAWLZZZ!!! I LAWL'D!!' and it's really contributing to the noise pollution (yes they are quite loud). So please, either stop saying these stupid things or stop posting

The most common MD sweepers in the format are Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives, both of which remove tokens from the game,and I'm not aware of a prevalence of Sandstorm or Rain of Blades any where. I don't rely on Ichorid and Golgari Grave-Troll to win the game, removing Flame Kin Zealot doesn't result in issuing Zombie tokens as a means of offense and Wonder makes them more effective at attacking if nothing else.

You do realize Underground Sea and Watery Grave are both an Island and a Swamp? Island doesn't have to refer to the actual card Island when Island is a trait that exists on other lands.

Ichorid isn't a combo deck? TES isn't a combo deck?

I never said the format has to respond to Ichorid, but if it does have to respond to Ichorid then the format has the tools it needs not just to compete against Ichorid but to banish it from the format, with Vintage being a good example of how fast Leyline of the Void will show up if Ichorid is popular.

The rest of those comments just warrants moderation.

[Bane of the Living]

Telling BW what for..

Thats everything I was just gonna say. I cant say how much I love to see that red font in his posts.

Regarding Serum Powder. The only reason I really considered it was to find LED in the manner that Vintage Ichorid finds Bazaar. The thing is LED is not the same caliber card as Bazaar and isnt worth rfging important cards with.

@BW
I appreciate the attempt to take me down a notch but I didnt use the shitty Serum Powders in the two tournaments I won.

I dont know about some of your posts. You like to argue anything you can in each thread whether it be Living Wish in TES (LOL) or Spoils of the Vault in Belcher. Maybe you'd learn more about some of the decks if you shut your mouth and test what works. We already got the indication your not taking the right strategies to win. You think for some reason this deck loses to combo as well. Way to throw your Vintage garble into the source's affairs again.

Ill tell you what, combo is the unfavorable matchups. If your practicing them enough and you dont have 26 chromosomes you should hit with therapies and be keeping the hands that can win fast enough.

This is definitely one of those decks where you need to name correctly with therapy, thankfully I do this like Im paid for it =)

EDIT
Wonder is terrible. It relies on an island to be usefull and the deck runs no basics or reliable ways to get to one. It needs to be in the graveyard and has no synergy with Ichorid.

Pernicious Deed is way way to slow for this deck. If Breath Weapon is getting beat by Deed he's not keeping hands that are fast enough. I actually believe EE to be a bit slow as well. Both are Needle targets and both are one shot use which means more zombies will come and eat you after the last wave died. This is not storm combo, you dont need to blow your load on one army.

As for Leyline of the Void to each his own but we can all remember what my call is and I believe it to be right.

Menendian doesnt play legacy he plays Vintage I really dont see the point in that reference. Even if he did I have way more time behind Ichorids wheel than even he at this point.

[Samshire]

The most common MD sweepers in the format are Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives, both of which remove tokens from the game,and I'm not aware of a prevalence of Sandstorm or Rain of Blades any where. I don't rely on Ichorid and Golgari Grave-Troll to win the game, removing Flame Kin Zealot doesn't result in issuing Zombie tokens as a means of offense and Wonder makes them more effective at attacking if nothing else.

If your opponent has cast a Pernicious Deeds, Chances are you were going to lose anyways.


You do realize Underground Sea and Watery Grave are both an Island and a Swamp? Island doesn't have to refer to the actual card Island when Island is a trait that exists on other lands.

Capital 'I' there buddy, it's a proper noun referring to the card 'Island'. Furthermore, with your logic 'Island' could refer to Tundra, Hollowed Fountain, Tropical Island, Volcanic Island, Breeding Pool and Steam Vents. Cards are given names for a reason, as to not cause confusion. Appareantly you haven't grasped his concept yet...


Ichorid isn't a combo deck? TES isn't a combo deck?

Yes, exactly. This was the main point of my response right here.

Can you see why I think you are a dumb ass? Where did I mention TES? (Rhetorical question, I didn't mention TES in my response)
Warned for flaming. - Zilla

I believe your strategy without Flame-Kin Zealot is not quite a combo strategy. If I had to guess, I would say it's an aggro strategy because it deals damage in incriments over time instead of all at once, but I honestly can't tell what the hell your deck is supposed to do. I guess it sits around for a turn, lets your opponent find and answer to all of your creatures.


The rest of those comments just warrants moderation.

They sure do...In agreement

[BreathWeapon]

Thats everything I was just gonna say. I cant say how much I love to see that red font in his posts.

Regarding Serum Powder. The only reason I really considered it was to find LED in the manner that Vintage Ichorid finds Bazaar. The thing is LED is not the same caliber card as Bazaar and isnt worth rfging important cards with.

@BW
I appreciate the attempt to take me down a notch but I didnt use the shitty Serum Powders in the two tournaments I won.

I dont know about some of your posts. You like to argue anything you can in each thread whether it be Living Wish in TES (LOL) or Spoils of the Vault in Belcher. Maybe you'd learn more about some of the decks if you shut your mouth and test what works. We already got the indication your not taking the right strategies to win. You think for some reason this deck loses to combo as well. Way to throw your Vintage garble into the source's affairs again.

Ill tell you what, combo is the unfavorable matchups. If your practicing them enough and you dont have 26 chromosomes you should hit with therapies and be keeping the hands that can win fast enough.

This is definitely one of those decks where you need to name correctly with therapy, thankfully I do this like Im paid for it =)

You received the same warning,

Regardless, the deck needs to find a means of protecting itself against other combo decks thru' some form of strategy superiority, because I don't see how 4 Underground Sea and 4 Cabal Therapy are going to give you a consistent chance to disrupt the opponent game one before the opponent manages to hit his Diminishing Returns and reset the discard pile even if you've scouted the deck. Getting a hand with a U/b land, Cabal Therapy, outlet and Dredger is easier said then done and mulliganing for all of those is strenuous.

As far as I can see, TES is using the same 4 Simian Spirit Guide, 3 Empty the Warrens, 1 Hull Breach, 1 Earthquake or Rough/Tumble, 1 Infernal Contract and 1 Goblin Warstrike I suggested. I don't think I've left a single deck with out making a significant improvement on it regardless of testing countless variations that have failed and evaluating those failures thru' argumentation. Taking your word as gospel isn't any more compelling then constantly re-evaluating the dogma for any forgotten or undiscovered wisdom, and as it stands the only player/list to have done anything significant with the archetype disagrees with some of your assessments.

I fail to see how you are in any position to say that I'm not taking the right strategies to win, I'm winning, and if I choose to do that by cutting a single card from my deck in favor of another so be it. You act as if there's some puritanical approach to the archetype that can't be questioned when the archetype hasn't even established itself thru' deed or time, so how can there not be room for individuals to digress?

Edit: Losing to sweepers can happen if the aggro-control or control deck counters the outlet and the deck has to either redraw another outlet or use maximum hand size and has to give the opponent time to establish himself on the board. Comboing a board sweeper with the activation of a Man Land to clear the tokens and the Bridge from Below, and if the opponent can stabilize there's all sorts of threats that can end the game from there.

@Samshire, I think it's clear that both Bane of the Living and I were referring to island, Island or whatever else as a non Cephalid Coliseum blue producing land in this deck.

You didn't mention TES, instead you alluded to an ambiguous combo deck that could have been referring to either one, considering the post you were "quoting" from used the word combo to describe both decks. If Ichorid isn't combo, then the format lacks the nomenclature to define what it is, because I don't know what to call it at this point.

[ReAnimated]

I don't think I've left a single deck with out making a significant improvement on it

I fail to see how you are in any position to say that I'm not taking the right strategies to win


1. Yes we know you don't think

2. You've made every deck that you ever touched worse cause your that bad

3. Your Stratagies fail

Warned for flaming. - Zilla

[sammiel]

*edit* removed my backseat modding.


In the interest of trying to steer this back on track, what matchups does this deck really fear? A quick ghostly prison from stax, efficient graveyard hate, what?

[Bane of the Living]

You received the same warning,

Regardless, the deck needs to find a means of protecting itself against other combo decks thru' some form of strategy superiority, because I don't see how 4 Underground Sea and 4 Cabal Therapy are going to give you a consistent chance to disrupt the opponent game one before the opponent manages to hit his Diminishing Returns and reset the discard pile even if you've scouted the deck. Getting a hand with a U/b land, Cabal Therapy, outlet and Dredger is easier said then done and mulliganing for all of those is strenuous.

As far as I can see, TES is using the same 4 Simian Spirit Guide, 3 Empty the Warrens, 1 Hull Breach, 1 Earthquake or Rough/Tumble, 1 Infernal Contract and 1 Goblin Warstrike I suggested. I don't think I've left a single deck with out making a significant improvement on it regardless of testing countless variations that have failed and evaluating those failures thru' argumentation. Taking your word as gospel isn't any more compelling then constantly re-evaluating the dogma for any forgotten or undiscovered wisdom, and as it stands the only player/list to have done anything significant with the archetype disagrees with some of your assessments.

I fail to see how you are in any position to say that I'm not taking the right strategies to win, I'm winning, and if I choose to do that by cutting a single card from my deck in favor of another so be it. You act as if there's some puritanical approach to the archetype that can't be questioned when the archetype hasn't even established itself thru' deed or time, how can there not be room for individuals to digress?

Why are you assuming Im pay a black mana for Cabal Therapy??

No the hand cant get all of the cards you mentioned in its opening hand all the time but if you dont get your land in your opening grasp its just hurting the deck since its a dead dredge. Going manaless has a point you realize? This is what Im pushing when go all anti Wonder on you.

This deck is fast enough if you leave FKZ in to race Belcher and TES. Ive had two sanctioned turn 1 kills with the deck. Its not out of reach at all.

Lukas already stated his team member had very little testing with the deck and seemingly whipped one together. It still performed for him because the archetype is broken. I believe Im heading in the right direction as far as development is concerned. You seem to be regressing it. The way to deal with Pyroclasm and Deed is to go faster and more manaless.

[Bane of the Living]

*edit* removed my backseat modding.


In the interest of trying to steer this back on track, what matchups does this deck really fear? A quick ghostly prison from stax, efficient graveyard hate, what?

Ghostly Prison and if your not running LotV Mogg Fanatic. Everything else is just zombie food.

[Bovinious]

@ Sammiel

That doesn't add to the discussion either, if you really cared you'd PM a mod or something but I don't think there is an issue here. Normally I'd agree with you that flame wars like this don't add to the discussion, but the arguement was about the deck itself not strictly personal, and let me tell you that it is VERY hard to have constructive discussion when BreathWeapon derails threads in this way, the only way people can respond is partially through flames because just arguing gets no where, his non-sensicle posts always lead to lots of flames and LOLZ, this time is no different. Anyways...let the "discussion" continue!

[Bane of the Living]

Does anyone want a run through of any of the matchups? I think I got some game on all of them now.

Quickly and Ill expand on request.

Red Thresh +
This version might run clasm main which is the only thing you care about. My rule of Cabal Therapy is to simply name what you dont want to see so name it. If you whiff your in the clear and you can combo out easily. Its probably worth noting you dont actually need LotV against Thresh but its always nice to see it come up in your hand. It made a bad matchup for them much worse.
Your way faster than this deck and they cant stop you with counterspells and removal.

White Thresh +
Pretty much the same except that Meddling Mage can throw you a curve ball if they name correctly with Mage. I honestly dont care to tell you what they should name because I dont like that knowledge to spread like wildfire. Against thresh try to slow roll by going to discard phase if you cant protect LED from Daze. Theres no rush. Bring in Chalice to set at one after boarding and laugh.

Goblins +
This is a matchup where you thank your luckey stars you play with LotV like me. Mogg Fanatic can toss the whole game by tearing your bridges away. Goblin Lackey can be a problem for you but even if they go lackey->SGC you should be ok unless you really have nothing going for you. You certainly dont fear him as much as other decks. Smart gob players will sb Pyrokinesis against you for Ichorids so just remember not to go for the Ichy kill unless you need to.

Survival +
A joke, they have nothing against you at all. Try to find LotV and win whenever you feel like it. No one plays frog lock anymore heh.

Tomb Stompy +
These decks can fuck up LED by playing Chalice for zero and Trinisphere. You can still basically play no spells against them to get around this hate strategy and discard/dredge to victory. This is the only deck that can do that. The chances they know your playing LED to victory are slim until the second game or unless they're scouting.

Tarmagoyf.dec +
Theres alot of these being played right now and you walk all over them. Your playing the best aggro deck in the format. Your army is bigger, faster, free, and endless. Goyf can get big on you in a hurry but they dont have the control to get him in for enough hits.

Belcher/TES -
Hope they go for the EtW kill because you can stablize from it and kill back pretty easily. Bring in Chalice against both and Needle against Belcher to make an unfavorable matchup closer.

Red Death +
R&D's best play (1st turn Negs) is too slow to kill you. Hymn is a joke and so is Sinkhole. Spector is terrible and so is Shade. Bolts arent enough to stop Ichorids from coming back and Chainlightning doesnt help as a sorcery. The only card you care about is Duress if it should actually take a LED on the play.

Stax -
This matchup can be tough because of Magus of the Zombies. You need to go for the combo kill when he's out with one attack phase. Trinisphere can be played through by not playing spells and beating with Narco + Ichy. Ghostly Prison needs to be assessed with one large Grave Troll + 2 mana. I added a second Dakmor Salvage to my build for this strategy since there are 2-3 stax decks in my meta.

Loam Confinement/Enchantress +
Loam has nothing on you aside from Confinement, thats it. They're far to slow to kill you in timely fashion. Elephant Grass sucks but sometimes you can wait it out.

[C.P.]

I have not tested the deck yet, but as a quick question about how to beat the deck, how good is Yixid Jailer against the deck? Leylines? Other traditional GY hate such as Crypt?

Also, what is the fundamental turn of the deck? How does the list with maindeck leyline look like? What is your worst match to the date?

EDIT: Ignore matchup part, I guess.

EDIT2:

@Bane

I've been playing enchantress quite a bit, and I'm not sure if I agree with you. The deck has ability to cast Confinement/Prison on turn 2, along with Elephant Grass. Is the deck fast enough to just ignore it?

[BreathWeapon]

Why are you assuming Im pay a black mana for Cabal Therapy??

No the hand cant get all of the cards you mentioned in its opening hand all the time but if you dont get your land in your opening grasp its just hurting the deck since its a dead dredge. Going manaless has a point you realize? This is what Im pushing when go all anti Wonder on you.

This deck is fast enough if you leave FKZ in to race Belcher and TES. Ive had two sanctioned turn 1 kills with the deck. Its not out of reach at all.

Lukas already stated his team member had very little testing with the deck and seemingly whipped one together. It still performed for him because the archetype is broken. I believe Im heading in the right direction as far as development is concerned. You seem to be regressing it. The way to deal with Pyroclasm and Deed is to go faster and more manaless.

Can you consistently hit a Narcomoeba, Cabal Therapy and name Lion's Eye Diamond blind in the first game of a tournament match?

I don't doubt the deck can get turn 1 wins off of running multiple Cephalid Sages and Flame Kin Zealots, what I doubt is the ability for a single Cephalid Sage and Flame Kin Zealot to do that. I never disregarded Flame Kin Zealot as a possible addition to this deck, I just doubt the usefulness of running a single Flame Kin Zealot and expecting it to make a consistent difference. I can always count on Wonder to do its thing while Flame Kin Zealot is something of a wild card.

I'm not certain that more mana-less is the right approach, it didn't work for Ichorid in Vintage and regardless of the formats using different engines the deck's weaknesses are almost identical.

@Bovinious, I get flamed by three people who have nothing to gain from doing so and yet I'm responsible for derailing the thread? The argument was clearly personal, which baffles me to no end.

Edit: Forget it, I'm done for the night, Happy 4th.

[Bane of the Living]

I have not tested the deck yet, but as a quick question about how to beat the deck, how good is Yixid Jailer against the deck? Leylines? Other traditional GY hate such as Crypt?

Also, what is the fundamental turn of the deck? How does the list with maindeck leyline look like? What is your worst match to the date?

EDIT: Ignore matchup part, I guess.

Yixid Jailer seems like he's keep his paws out of Legacy due to his fragile body. I think he's there for Standard Bridge. Regardless Ive been running 3 Darkblast sb to deal with him and Lackey/Fanatic.

Leyline is obviously the best card against us. Im running 6 answers currently. Its still an issue but I dont think this deck has enough heat on it to pack it yet. Only black decks are running them right now.

Crypt can be played right through. Read my last tournament report where I played through two. I have answers in my board that come in anticipating it always.

The fundemental turns are 2-4 with turn 1 very possible with hands that have 1-2 LED's.

I dont want to give my list out anymore but I will tell you I cut the Putrid Imps from it. I wasnt impressed with an outlet that didnt draw cards regardless of his color for Ichy. Keeping your bridge is much more important than dumping your hand 4 other ways.

The only games Ive lost at all have been to Geddon Stax and Death and Taxes. Ive even been lucky enough to win the games against Belcher/TES.

Stax-
Magus of the Tabernacle
Moat
Ghostly Prison
Chalice of the Void
Trinisphere

This is probably a good time to point out how nice a time it is to be playing stax. Its got the perfect meta.



@Bane

I've been playing enchantress quite a bit, and I'm not sure if I agree with you. The deck has ability to cast Confinement/Prison on turn 2, along with Elephant Grass. Is the deck fast enough to just ignore it?

Elephant Grass is no doubt the best card to play against us. The thing is Enchantress can only set up so much in the first couple turns. If you drop EG without an engine going its upkeep will run out and you'll lose it.

They cant keep Confinement up without Enchantress in play. That deck is all about branching into your plays and Ichorid can throw a wrench in it pretty well with Therapy and its speed.

[C.P.]

Elephant Grass is no doubt the best card to play against us. The thing is Enchantress can only set up so much in the first couple turns. If you drop EG without an engine going its upkeep will run out and you'll lose it.

They cant keep Confinement up without Enchantress in play. That deck is all about branching into your plays and Ichorid can throw a wrench in it pretty well with Therapy and its speed.

Well, Turn 1 Sprawl/Exploration, Turn 2 Enchantress + Grass is is not an uncommon sight for the deck. after that, the deck can play another enchantress effect and confinement over couple turns. Assuming that happens, how hard is it to beat?

Also, is ground seal any factor?

EDIT: There are also versions with squee, which can keep turn 2 confinement forever.

[SillyMetalGAT]

EDIT: There are also versions with squee, which can keep turn 2 confinement forever.

Thats why you run Leyline. Squee gets pwned by Leyline. Also BreathWeapon, I think Serum Powder would work for your version because you run 4x of everything so you don't care as much about your Bridges, whereas Banes version relys very heavily on Bridges, making the deck a lot faster, and broken, and better than yours. Try it... like a lot. Its better.

EDIT: I am playing this at the next tourney I go to so I can post my results. Im winning some Sea Drakes!

[technogeek5000]

Does this deck have any real ,fast ,and viable answers to graveyard hate? It seems that a planar void or a leyline would be a auto loss for this deck.

[Soto]

I dunno bout hate, but im having a very difficult time getting things in the graveyard. I goldfished a few hands and when led was used and i started dredging, i would be left with like no dredge creatures in the yard and no way to get them out of my hand. Shouldn't putrid be a 4-of for sure?

[gnurbel2000]

I have a general question about sideboarding with this deck:

What and how many cards do you board out?
Lets say you won a game against an unknown goblin player and you are suspecting Tormod's Crypt. Referencing to the German list, do you board the total of 3, 4, 7, 8 or 11 cards?
The relevant cards are Chalice of the Void (4), Pithing Needle(3) and Leyline of the Void(4).
And would there be any difference if you lost the first game?

[Bane of the Living]

I have a general question about sideboarding with this deck:

What and how many cards do you board out?
Lets say you won a game against an unknown goblin player and you are suspecting Tormod's Crypt. Referencing to the German list, do you board the total of 3, 4, 7, 8 or 11 cards?
The relevant cards are Chalice of the Void (4), Pithing Needle(3) and Leyline of the Void(4).
And would there be any difference if you lost the first game?

First off I play LotV maindeck to help alleviate the sb a bit. That gives you 4 extra cards to crunch around. Second game I always take out Street Wraith for Needle x4. SW is still worth playing maindeck due to his broken nature and synergies with the deck but you power down a small small amount by taking him out for Crypt hate second game.

If you won first game like you always should, then your on the draw next game. Dont bother with Chalice of the Void. If they play first and drop Crypt your Chalice became a dead card. Keep them for game 3 should you get to it.

Ill usually take out Leyline for the Chalice unless Im playing against Goblins or another very 1cc heavy deck. Your still fast enough to smash through and lose bridges as long as you got a good deal out of it.

________________________________

On Putrid Imp...
This card is a totally based on your preference. I have no problem with hands without him in my deck but maybe Im just lucky. I dont like that a black mana is needed to play him. Blue needs to stay primary for Cephalid Coliseum, Breakthrough, and Deep Analysis.

Ive also been working on my future version of Ichorid that Ill be swapping to when this version starts getting too much heat. Obviously the worst card for the deck to see is opposing LotV's. While Chain of Vapor is nice it's not as good as enchantment removal. Enchantress can be a difficult battle if they get the right hands, so cards like Reverent Silence are huge boons.

Dryad Arbor is nuts in the deck.

So I've forsaken Putrid for my green focus. U/g Ichorid > U/b Ichorid. The manabase is far to shakey to go three colors.

EDIT

I went 5-2 against belcher last night.

[SillyMetalGAT]

EDIT: I went 5-2 against belcher last night because I cheated.

Edited for truth. You only won because you cheated your stupid Therapies. And SoCo FTL... I couldnt concentrate with someone babbling in my ear about Ninjitsu all night.

[BreathWeapon]

You can run Putrid Imp on three colors, it just requires the 5c lands and cost efficient removal. It's not a bad idea regardless, since the deck can SB in Ancient Grudge on the draw, let the opponent cast Tormod's Crypt and then discard the Ancient Grudge by using your maximum hand size and then cast it on your following turn etc.

I think Putrid Imp and 12 lands is the right call, being able to get 2 lands for Cephalid Coliseum and Deep Analysis activations or just being able to get 2 outlets lets you discard your deck by turn 3 or so. It seems like the German list is a turn faster than other lists because of Putrid Imp and the higher land count. The deck can set up plays like casting a Putrid Imp, dredging a Golgari Grave Troll, getting X additional dredgers in the discard pile and then following it up with another land and Breakthrough to dredge thru' the entire deck by turn 3. The amazing thing about Putrid Imp is that he doesn't require you to discard your entire hand in one activation, so you can set up some really cool plays with him that more mana-less lists can't emulate. You also mulligan to death less, which is always a plus.

Edit: 2 lands also lets the deck cast Narcomoeba and Golgari Thug, and Putrid Imp can turn out to be a threat if some one is using Yixlid Jailors or Trinispheres etc. I won a couple of games by beating down in the air with just Putrid Imps and Narcomoebas under otherwise hopeless conditions (Trinisphere + Moat).

It's a lot easier to get to the 2 mana threshold and just count on Cephalid Coliseum, Deep Analysis and combinations of outlets to overstock the discard pile than it is to run Leyline of the Void and Street Wraith from what I've seen. Mana and outlets are always good, while Leyline of the Void and Street Wraith are only situationally good. Your results may vary, but for a list that was supposedly just thrown together, the Putrid Imp list is very good.

[Soto]

I'm running this at a local tourny today and i was wondering if there were any new developments. I find it hard some times (*with the german build) to get dredgers in the gy. Is 11 the right amount?

[Soto]

Well...i didnt get any responses, so i just played the German version of the deck.

First round, i played against a Bu discard deck. (He didnt have MD or SB LotV, but did have withered reches)
Game 1: I do my thing and win 2nd turn with putrid imp, 2 dredgers, and breakthrough.
Game 2: I keep a hand that you wait to have 8 and then discard at EoT. But he has cabal therapy hitting breakthrough. I have to wait, and by then he gets down a jitte and a withered wrech, before i can start dredging into anything important.
Game 3: My hand is teh sux. I mulligan. Again. And Again. I keep a hand with land, land, breakthrough, deep analysis, thinking that i can just try and draw something with the breakthrough and send it to the yard and start dredging with DA, but i don't hit any dredgers with it. And I lose.
0-1
Second round, ......W/G aggro (no hate against me whatsoever)
Game 1: Win on turn 2 or 3.
Game 2: I keep a hand to discard EoT, dont dredge into anything (lands, cabal therapies without ichorid or narcomoebas, deep analysis without lands,etc) and he finishes me off with rancored wolves Iwamori...
Game 3: I mull to 4, and again can't get anything of the dredges...
0-2 I'm really starting to believe I need more dredgers. I feel the deck is very inconsistent.

Third Round, some kid playing some U/G random deck
Game 1: Win turn 1 with double led and triple analysis of dredges.
Game 2: Win turn 2 with the usual.
1-2 The deck is BROKEN, but it feels like it's very luck dependant.

Fourth Round, Mono Red Janky Goblins
Game 1: Win turn 2, with 4 Narcos into 12 tokens.
Game 2: Win turn 4ish but with Dread Returned Cephalid Sage to find the FKZ, finished with 15ish tokens or more thanks to ichorids.
2-2

Conclusions: It prolly was bad luck since all four matches were pretty much goldfishing and the deck just either failed terribly or raped face. I didn't get to test sideboarding much because there was no hate against me except in the form of withered wretch. I do though feel uncomfortable with only 8 ways (plus discard phase) to get dredgers in the yard and also with the fact that i only have 11 dredgers. Alot of people at the tournament said Tolarian Winds should be an auto-include but i feel that adding more spells would make the deck more vulnerable to control decks, and my meta has alot of control (out of 22-23, we had 3 threshold, 1 solidarity, 1 discard deck, 1 tog).

I'm still a beginner with the deck so i will keep testing, but the above are my most pressing problems. Help would be appreciated. Thanks

-Soto

[Di]

Dryad Arbor is nuts in the deck.

So I've forsaken Putrid for my green focus. U/g Ichorid > U/b Ichorid. The manabase is far to shakey to go three colors.

Just note that with green you can use Reverant Silence as opposed to Chain of Vapor to deal with Leyline of the Void (multiples too!). Not paying for spells > paying for spells. The 6 life they get should be irrelevant really. That also happens to be insanely good for the Enchantress matchup too, which some of you guys seem to be worried about.

[Jak]

Any current lists?

[Bane of the Living]

Conclusions: It prolly was bad luck since all four matches were pretty much goldfishing and the deck just either failed terribly or raped face. I didn't get to test sideboarding much because there was no hate against me except in the form of withered wretch. I do though feel uncomfortable with only 8 ways (plus discard phase) to get dredgers in the yard and also with the fact that i only have 11 dredgers. Alot of people at the tournament said Tolarian Winds should be an auto-include but i feel that adding more spells would make the deck more vulnerable to control decks, and my meta has alot of control (out of 22-23, we had 3 threshold, 1 solidarity, 1 discard deck, 1 tog).

I'm still a beginner with the deck so i will keep testing, but the above are my most pressing problems. Help would be appreciated. Thanks

-Soto

I feel like 12 dredgers is the right number. I recently cut the one dakmor salvage, I play 4 thug.

Practice practice practice. It isnt as much luck as you think. Just learn when to keep a hand. Going to 8 cards and using the discard phase doesnt seem strong if your running the list with the putrid imps. People telling you to add Tolarian Winds havent played the deck enough to know better.


Just note that with green you can use Reverant Silence as opposed to Chain of Vapor to deal with Leyline of the Void (multiples too!). Not paying for spells > paying for spells. The 6 life they get should be irrelevant really. That also happens to be insanely good for the Enchantress matchup too, which some of you guys seem to be worried about.

Exactly.

[Barook]

Just note that with green you can use Reverant Silence as opposed to Chain of Vapor to deal with Leyline of the Void (multiples too!). Not paying for spells > paying for spells. The 6 life they get should be irrelevant really. That also happens to be insanely good for the Enchantress matchup too, which some of you guys seem to be worried about.
Just asking: How do you find a Forest with such a low land count? :confused:

[Bane of the Living]

Just asking: How do you find a Forest with such a low land count? :confused:

4 Lotus Petal
2-3 Tropical Island
4 Dryad Arbor (forest)

[troopatroop]

Not enough lists in this thread.

[Di]

Just asking: How do you find a Forest with such a low land count?

You draw a card from your deck? Is that concept so abstract it actually required you to ask? In a green build, you will be running at the very least 8 forests (4 Tropical Island + 4 Dryad Arbor), and then possibly Bayou or a fetchland or something, but most likely just the 8. Between Breakthrough, Street Wraith, and your actual draw step, drawing a land isn't too difficult.

Technically, the deck should probably be running upwards of 10, maybe even 12 lands. In my testing, I found myself opening a lot of hands with Breakthrough but no mana source. That made me a saaaad panda. Lotus Petal, as Bane mentioned, is awful. It can be wasted, but it isn't a recurable mana source, and it isn't a Forest. The fact that it isn't a Forest alone would warrant it's exclusion. Maybe it's cute to occasionally play multiple mana sources on turn 1 and have the opportunity to Breakthrough twice in the turn, but consistency is a lot stronger than the rare broken play. Land drops are important in matches with hate because you actually need the reusable mana source.

[BreathWeapon]

Is using 4 Dryad Arbor necessary when a green fetchland is functionally the same thing and can actually support your Breakthroughs by searching for Tropical Island? It's not like you have Ghouls or Shadows and pumping Troll is relatively minor, so I don't see why 4 Dryad Arbor is better than say 2 green fetchlands and 2 Dryad Arbor. Am I missing something?

[Bane of the Living]

Not enough lists in this thread.


Any current lists?


You draw a card from your deck? Is that concept so abstract it actually required you to ask? In a green build, you will be running at the very least 8 forests (4 Tropical Island + 4 Dryad Arbor), and then possibly Bayou or a fetchland or something, but most likely just the 8. Between Breakthrough, Street Wraith, and your actual draw step, drawing a land isn't too difficult.

Technically, the deck should probably be running upwards of 10, maybe even 12 lands. In my testing, I found myself opening a lot of hands with Breakthrough but no mana source. That made me a saaaad panda. Lotus Petal, as Bane mentioned, is awful. It can be wasted, but it isn't a recurable mana source, and it isn't a Forest. The fact that it isn't a Forest alone would warrant it's exclusion. Maybe it's cute to occasionally play multiple mana sources on turn 1 and have the opportunity to Breakthrough twice in the turn, but consistency is a lot stronger than the rare broken play. Land drops are important in matches with hate because you actually need the reusable mana source.

Lotus Petal has its ups and downs. I like that you can play around Daze so much better with it, which isnt the only reason to play it over more land. It can accelerate you a mana. This seems like one of those 'duh' things but when playing Ichorid this matters mucho. Its almost comparable to Lotus Petal in TES. Why doesnt TES just take out the four petals and play 4 more lands? Dont say storm.

Playing Deep Analysis is a pretty big deal and petals help you do it more than any card in the deck aside from LED. If you have a Coliseum in hand with LED you want to break it right away and start your engine but sometimes you'll have a land in hand and you'll sacrifice that land drop to combo out faster. If that land was a petal you could just play and have it ready for coliseum mana or Deep A.

The fact it produces any color of mana is another big deal in a deck that wants black to play Putrid Imps and Therapies, blue to play DA, Breakthrough, and activate Coliseum, and green maybe for Emerald Charm.

Now dont get me wrong, Im kinda torn between a few choices in this deck. Heres what this deck needs to grind out.. Ill start with the core.

4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Golgari Gravetroll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Deep Analysis
4 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
1 Flamekin Zealot
4 Cephalid Coliseum

This is back bone of the deck. I dont think any of these cards should be debated in any way. I feel like a lot of personal preference decides the next few pieces of the deck.

Here are a few of the debated spots

Putrid Imp - Some people feel like 8 discard effects arent enough and want to add up to 12.

Street Wraith - This guy has endless synergy with the deck, he removes to Ichorid just like imp but he's card draw rather than discard. How manaless you want to be determines how much you need free card draw. Its easy to want it but I feel very mana light versions need him more than Putrids.

Cephalid Sage/Flamekin Zealot/Wonder-
Im currently testing Wonder with the 8 island german build. Im not liking it as a replacement for 'saving bridges' as much as I liked Leyline of the Void. Leyline makes your opponent play by your rules, wonder requires you play by its rules. Needing to dredge him and have an island doesnt happen often enough for me.
Cephalid Sage acts like a Bazaar activation for Dread Return I started testing it as a one of and so far I love it since some games theres nothing worth Dread Returning, a FKZ has no zombies in play, a troll has not enough guys in the yard, ect.
The extra FKZ is played as a two of for some people but I think I get lucky running only one. I usually dredge most of my deck by the time I combo off. Drawing him or dredging him early is lame.

Golgari Thug- Some people feel a higher dredge count is needed and I feel this is a meta call dependant on how much Tormods Crypt you expect to swallow.

Leyline of the Void- This is something Im really on the fence about. The two tournaments I won ran Street Wraith and Leyline over the major difference of the german list's Putrid Imps and Watery Graves. Not losing to Mogg Fanatic is tech, thus I feel the only way Ichorid can be competitive in a realm of goblins is to run leyline.

Dakmor Salvage-
This card can come in handy if you expect to see any Ghostly Prisons, Elephant Grass, or expect very late games where you might expect to dredge multiple Deep Analysis. There are alot of neat tricks it can do in the deck but coming into play tapped and dredging 1 instead of 6 is usually a bad idea, regardless of getting Deep Anal online a turn later. I want to cut my copy but Im still on the fence.

Dryad Arbor- Im liking this card alot lately. It does so many things at one time.

- Block Lackey
- Produce mana for Thug/Narc, Deep Anal, Emerald Charm, Reverant Silence, Pithing Needle.
- Sacrifice to Dread Return and Cabal Therapy.

So here's my newest list.

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Golgari Gravetroll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Deep Analysis
4 Breakthrough
2 Carefull Study
3 Dread Return
1 Flamekin Zealot
3 Tropical Island
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Cephalid Coliseum

This version is hurt more by FoW since it doesnt have the ability to hardcast Therapy but its hurt much less by Leyline. Taking Seas out of the deck to support green is a necessary evil. That leaves blue as your only additional discard color, aka Carefull Study. I probably need so smash way more games out to figure out if these are the right numbers but this maindeck can support the best yard hate post board.

4 Pithing Needle
4 Emerald Charm
3 Reverant Silence
4 Chalice of the Void

[Soto]

Since you can't hardcast cabal therapies, should you lower how many you play? Maybe add another FKZ or Thug?

Edit: I looked at your list again Bane, and I'm a little worried about the number of black creatures. It seems like ichorid reanimation is hard.

[Bane of the Living]

Since you can't hardcast cabal therapies, should you lower how many you play? Maybe add another FKZ or Thug?

Edit: I looked at your list again Bane, and I'm a little worried about the number of black creatures. It seems like ichorid reanimation is hard.

I think you might be right, especially with only 3 thugs. I keep removing them to eachother. I think I might need to forsake the Leylines for SW's which is good and bad.

-4 LotV
+3 Street Wraith
+1 Golgari Thug

I think I could cut Chalice out of the board. Needle seems to be enough to combat Crypt, you can play through them ok anyways. CotV is better in versions that run enough lands to hit 2 mana consistantly.

Im expecting the goblins matchup to take a beating..

[Jak]

Okay, I just started playing this deck and I know I am playing it wrong, so I have a few questions. Say you have a land in play and some dredgers in the yard. Should you just keep dredging or draw your card. I think I know the answer to draw the card is, but I just want to make sure. Are there any other tips?

[Ewokslayer]

@bane of living

I am a bit curious about your manabase.
Shouldn't you have 4 trops and 3 arbors. I would imagine getting blue mana available is more important than an extra creature to sac.

Also, this has already been mentioned, but without black mana I don't think you should run 4 therapies. Have you thought about dropping one for Cephalid Sage?

I like your addition of SW. I was finding your deck having too few black creatures as well.

[Bane of the Living]

I went 4-2 at Kevins Sea Drake tournament.

Round One- Fuckinbryan playing U/G Madness
bryan plays at the lair with us every week and fell victim to me in my past two weeks of rampage. I dont remember the games very well since it was the first of 6 rounds and I smoked a ton of weed. I know I won the first and lost the second one after 2 Tormod's Crypts. I recovered from the first one just fine but he top decked into a second one when I was totally dedicated to the yard. Lost the third after taking a mull to 5 and drawing dead.

0-1

Round Two- Noob 1 playing mono blue wizards
I keep a mediocre hand that cant continue a dredging chain and beat him down with narcomoeba x 2, arbor x2, and one zombie token. I couldnt find therapies or dread returns to sac my men.
Game two I completely destroy him. Turn two I hit 3 Bridges, sac 4 guys get 12 zombies, dread return a zealot twice and attack for 99. He loved every second of it.

1-1

Round Three- Noob 2 playing B/G LD/Creature destruction
I cant help but be happy going against a dedicated creature and land destruction deck playing almost no lands and rezombifying dudes. I dont think I let him play a single spell before death both games.

2-1

Round Four- top8guy playing vial affinity
I dont remember much in this game. He won one, I won one, third game was very close. He sacced his whole board with atog and 2 disciples. After confirming it with him I pointed out the Leyline of the Void I had out since turn 0. frown town affinity. He still pulls out the win when I cant dredge anything in 18 cards over 3 turns.

2-2

Round five- ? I beat the shit out of whatever this was. Ill post if I remember.

3-2

Round six- phaerimmarchlord playing Death and Taxes
I take it in two after he plays Isamaru both games. Game one I combo out 18 damage or so and game two I kill him on turn two.

4-2

Here was the list I settled on..


4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Golgari Gravetroll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Putrid Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Deep Analysis
4 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
1 Wonder
1 Flamekin Zealot
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Polluted Delta
3 Dryad Arbor
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
4 Emerald Charm
2 Reverant Silence
1 Dryad Arbor

My only change to this list is -1 Wonder +1 Cephalid Sage. This guy is so disgusting in the deck. He should've been fit sooner.

I wasnt sad to have the LotV sb, I never ran into a single occasion where I lost my bridges.

[MattH]

Game two I completely destroy him. Turn two I hit 3 Bridges, sac 4 guys get 12 zombies, dread return a zealot twice and attack for 99. He loved every second of it.
Can you do this? Don't you have to announce targets (the creature to be reanimated) before you pay costs (sac the FKZ)?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Can you do this? Don't you have to announce targets (the creature to be reanimated) before you pay costs (sac the FKZ)?It's possible he sacrificed it beforehand to Therapy, but as you stated, yes.

[Di]

I assume what he meant was he Dread Returned the FKZ, then flashed back Cabal Therapy, and then Dread Returned him again.

EDIT: Didn't read the post above. Oh well.

[ninjabear]

I can think 4 cards to completely ruin your day:
Leyline of the void
Tormod's Crypt
Extirpate
Yixlid Jailer

I can see no real answer to all 4 of this (relatively common) threats against your deck.

Leyline of the Void: Reverent Silence, Emerald Charm
Tormod's Crypt: Ancient grudge (not quite), Pithing Needle, Chalice for 0, Stifle/Trickbind
Extirpate: Ground Seal (invalidates your Dread Returns), Chalice for 1
Yixlid Jailer: Does people really play this guy so much? Anyway, only Chalice for 2 (difficult!)

The real problem I see with this deck is that hate will totally kill you, with little chance to do anything. Other decks worst fears (chalice for threshold/solidarity, Meddling mage for combos...) normally stalls them because negates them the possibility of going off. A Leyline of the void / Crypt against "Almost mana-less ichorid" is normally completely devasting, and you cannot even start playing. To make it worse, it seems there is not 1 single answer against all those cards.

I know many people is happy with some auto-loss against some cards (goblins against Solitary Confinement with Loam/Squee), but graveyard hate seems to be too frequent to ignore. Specially Crypt.

Also, the difference I see with Vintage mana-less ichorid and this Legacy version of it is that the Vintage one does not cast spells (Maybe one Lion Eye's Diamond at most) and thus is inmune to counters. In Legacy there's no Baazar of Baghdad. Breakthrough and other goodies are, indeed, countereable, so Force of Will will hurt. Have other uncountereable way of discarding (Firestorm, Sickening Dreams) been considered?

[laststepdown]

The Vintage version definitely casts Cabal Therapy and Dread Return. I've seen no lists run LED and be successful. Also, Bazaar is subject to getting Wastelanded into oblivion. This doesn't stop people from taking mulligans (with or without serum powder) straight into the land.

If a deck is running Leyline, Crypt, Extirpate(and knows what to target) and Jailer, then we probably lose. Now what deck runs all four playsets of those named cards? Similar to playing Iggy Pop and starting the game without a Leyline, with a FoW in your opponent's grave, it's just a situation that you can't count on seeing every round at a big event.

[The Coming Curse]

i was thinking of building this deck and i was just curious, insted of the seas could you run underground river? it is a lot cheaper money wise and as far i can tell it does the same thing just you take one dmg but if you go off on turn one or two it doesnt matter.

[Bovinious]

I'd run Watery Grave way before Underground River, River can't be found by fetches.

[AngryTroll]

But if Watery Grave isn't an option either, you can try replacing all of the fetches and duals with Underground River. Not nearly as good, but much cheaper if you don't have any other option. Mainboard, at least, it probably won't make much difference. It will make your sideboarding options more limited, because finding green will be harder, but that's a different problem.

[Bane of the Living]

I can see no real answer to all 4 of this (relatively common) threats against your deck.

Leyline of the Void: Reverent Silence, Emerald Charm
Tormod's Crypt: Ancient grudge (not quite), Pithing Needle, Chalice for 0, Stifle/Trickbind
Extirpate: Ground Seal (invalidates your Dread Returns), Chalice for 1
Yixlid Jailer: Does people really play this guy so much? Anyway, only Chalice for 2 (difficult!)

The real problem I see with this deck is that hate will totally kill you, with little chance to do anything. Other decks worst fears (chalice for threshold/solidarity, Meddling mage for combos...) normally stalls them because negates them the possibility of going off. A Leyline of the void / Crypt against "Almost mana-less ichorid" is normally completely devasting, and you cannot even start playing. To make it worse, it seems there is not 1 single answer against all those cards.

I know many people is happy with some auto-loss against some cards (goblins against Solitary Confinement with Loam/Squee), but graveyard hate seems to be too frequent to ignore. Specially Crypt.

Also, the difference I see with Vintage mana-less ichorid and this Legacy version of it is that the Vintage one does not cast spells (Maybe one Lion Eye's Diamond at most) and thus is inmune to counters. In Legacy there's no Baazar of Baghdad. Breakthrough and other goodies are, indeed, countereable, so Force of Will will hurt. Have other uncountereable way of discarding (Firestorm, Sickening Dreams) been considered?

Tormods Crypt can actually be played through as long as your not stupid about it. Slow roll your cards. Hold back your LED and just go to your discard phase and dredge slowly. This is where I started liking Putrid Imp more and more since he's a great turn one play against decks that drop a Crypt. You can then drop whatever goodies are in your hand a bit at a time till you apply the pressure it takes for your opponent to break the crypt. Dump a dredger and ask if you can take your draw phase, dump an Ichorid in there and watch how fast your yard gets wiped out. You can do trickey things like discard Therapy and watch your opponent nurf the yard in fear of being therapied.

Post board you have Pithing Needle and Chalice of the Void just like you said. Obviously Chalice is only good on the play.

Leyline is a severe problem but the decks playing them normally have more problems than their opponent. There arent any good decks that play Leyline right now. Iggy is falling behind in the popularity contest right now, most versions being played arent even running the Leylines in the maindeck anymore. Make sure your prepared to fight it off though, Ive swapped over to the U/b/g version so I can take out the Leyline if I should see it. Dryads are forests for Reverant Silence and they rule in the deck anyways. Now that Ive been playing with them for a while I dont think Id want to take them out. The synergies with Bridge, Therapy, and Dread Return are amazing. Its a creature for Gravetroll to grow bigger and it blocks lackey.

Extirpate is probably an issue since only Chalice can stop it and getting 2 mana isnt the easiest thing in the world. This brings up the same Leyline question however, Who's playing these??

Yixid Jailer? Are you playing the same format as me? If your really seeing these in your metagame therapy it out of hand or sb Darkblast.

Your right that there isnt one answer for all of those cards but when will you be up against that? Always sb in Pithing Needle for Crypt game two unless its a black deck. Then pack your Needles and your Leyline hate.

Theres no point in drawing parallels to the Vintage and Legacy versions of Ichorid. Ichorid was born in extended, we get more goodies from our format look at it as though the glass is half full. Force of Will happens, just dont keep a hand based on one specific card. Try to Therapy the force out before playing LED/Breakthrough. My favorite play against FoW (since decks playing it are so slow) is to go to my discard phase and assault them spell-less with Ichorids and Zombie Tokens. Eventually they'll FoW a Therapy or a Dread Return, then you can play LED/Breakthrough/Deep Analysis and win.

Dont forget that going to 8 cards, discarding, and activating a Cephalid Coliseum is a great play against FoW since they cant do anything to stop it.

[Bovinious]

I've been goldfishing and testing this deck for the past week, and, after reading this thread and the thread on EPIC Ichorid, have come up with what I think is a good list for UB manaless.

For reference heres my list:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
2 [A] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [TO] Breakthrough
2 [OD] Careful Study

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void


I wanted to ask why people are running green in this deck, is it just for Reverent Silence SB, and if so why is that so good? I can see that Arbor works well with Therapy/Return, but it doesnt actually help you cast anything in your deck. Also I think that Chain of Vapor SB (followed up by Cabal Therapy if need be) is a good way to get rid of Leyline of the Void and stays in your primary color, making it easier to cast than Reverent Silence.

Also, what is everyones opinion on Street Wraith? I had it in my list up until recently when I realized it didnt really help me until I had a dredger in the yard, at which point I'm fine usually anyways and would rather have Careful Study, plus Study is much better w/o a dredger in yard.

I'm also still unsure about the land count and the last 3 SB slots, any comments appreciated.

[Bane of the Living]

I wanted to ask why people are running green in this deck, is it just for Reverent Silence SB, and if so why is that so good? I can see that Arbor works well with Therapy/Return, but it doesnt actually help you cast anything in your deck. Also I think that Chain of Vapor SB (followed up by Cabal Therapy if need be) is a good way to get rid of Leyline of the Void and stays in your primary color, making it easier to cast than Reverent Silence.

Also, what is everyones opinion on Street Wraith? I had it in my list up until recently when I realized it didnt really help me until I had a dredger in the yard, at which point I'm fine usually anyways and would rather have Careful Study, plus Study is much better w/o a dredger in yard.

I'm also still unsure about the land count and the last 3 SB slots, any comments appreciated.

Are you getting the mana for your Imps ok with just the four black sources? I know Im having issues with it at times.

Reverant Silence is better than Chain of Vapor since it actually destroys the enchantment and deals with multiples. Sometimes you need to get to a slow hand that has the Leyline hate and playing Chain of Vapor on it will allow them to replay it before you can establish a win out of nowhere. Being a free spell is also tech if you need to play around things like Daze.

Green not only gives you the enchantment hate but also gives the Arbor. Just being a free creature is amazing for this deck. It doesnt matter that it sucks up a land drop in this deck unlike others since your pretty manaless. It can still be used on turn 2 to flashback Deep Analysis then sac to play a Therapy or Dread Return. Mentioned several times but you personally need to perform this atrocity to see the rewards you reap.

Street Wraith is waiting for a slot to be pushed out of the deck. He's great but he's not all important to the decks success. Consistancy is more important and he doesnt offer any. He's really waiting till the deck can become more manaless to see play. Wheres our Bazaar?!

[Bovinious]

I actually have 6 black sources atm, but yes sometimes I do draw the Imp and no black source. Sometimes its a hand thats good anyways and it doesnt matter but other times I wish I could cast Imp b/c that would make the hand keepable, I'm thinking of taking out the 2 Careful Studys for 2 more land or taking out an Imp for a land.

Keeping a small sized hand with Arbor and Silence/Charm (esp w/o green fetches SB to find Arbor) seems about as likely to happen as keeping a bigger hand with Chain, and then being able to dredge into a Therapy before they hit 4 mana, and even if they do cast it on turn 4 it may not be relevent than anyways. Maybe a SB with some Foothills/Heaths to ensure you get the Arbor though can help make the green option more reliable. Also, if my opponent is lucky enough to draw into 2+ Leylines then I guess ill lose that game, a lot of decks lose when people draw their whole sideboards in their opening hands. Green doesnt seem that bad though, I guess Ill try out +3 Arbor +1 Trop, -2 Study -1 Imp -1 Delta, and the appropriate SB.

I agree on Street Wraith, we really need every slot in the deck and don't really have room for something that is only really good when we have LED/Imp already rolling.

[Bane of the Living]

Well Im trying out the 3 color mana base a different way. I really think if this deck gets rolling and attracts the attention it deserves we'll see more Leyines. Green is a must. Chain of Vapor can certainly work (on crypt too) but since it can come back on you and bounce your own Leyline it can be trouble. Although this will only happen in the Iggy matchup I like not worrying about it.

My new manabase is 4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Mine, 4 Coliseum.

The biggest advantage is adding Ancient Grudge to the sb. I love being able to man handle Tormod's Crypt so well with these and Pithing Needles. Being able to blow shit up like opposing Needles is nice as well even if we only have 2 targets for it.

Although we no longer have forest for a free Reverant Silence we dont get an important mana StP'd or Fanatic'd. No fetchlands mean no Stifles ftw. Still getting green through Gemstone/City means Emerald Charm is still playable.

I dont want it to seem like I cant settle on a build or Im indecisive but I want to test all options this bahroken archetype offers.

So far the gold lands and Grudge get an A+
Trop and Dryad Arbor got an A.

Oh and again, if your not playing Cephalid Sage do so. He's increased the decks ability to combo by about 10%.

[Ewokslayer]

Everyone's sideboard seems to include a bunch of 4 ofs that pretty much have to be brought into every matchup in order to fight hate
i.e.
Enchantment Removal/Bounce for Leyline
Chalice/ Pithing Needle for Crypt
Leyline for creature sacrifice.

What are people planning on boarding out to fit all these sideboard cards in?

[Bane of the Living]

I usually take out the Dread Return combo. Since your opponent will likely Crypt you unless you fight it well enough, you dont want useless Dread Returns in the yard. Most combo decks wont bother with these hate cards against you so you can keep in your own combo to race.

If I need to bring in more than 4-5 cards Ill usually take out one of each Cabal Therapy, Putrid Imp, and Deep Analysis.

You dont need the Leylines very often. The more you play this deck the better you learn to handle your bridges. The matches I bring them in are usually Goblins, Affinity, Loam, Reanimator, and Iggy.

[Bovinious]

The only thing I can think to SB out is the Dread Return package, this deck needs Cabal Therapy to generate zombies more so than Friggorid needed Therapy, back when I played Friggorid I often sided out Therapies/DAs but here in manaless ichorid I'd first side out the Dread Return package then either DAs or Putrid Imp before Cabal Therapy.

Also the 5 color mana base seems like a good idea, without Wonder theres no reason we need Islands or Swamps so having rainbow lands doesnt hurt at all, except that we cant use Reverent Silence which I'm not that big a fan of anyways, we can run Ancient Grudge/Emerald Charm, seems worthwhile to me.

[BreathWeapon]

Well Im trying out the 3 color mana base a different way. I really think if this deck gets rolling and attracts the attention it deserves we'll see more Leyines. Green is a must. Chain of Vapor can certainly work (on crypt too) but since it can come back on you and bounce your own Leyline it can be trouble. Although this will only happen in the Iggy matchup I like not worrying about it.

My new manabase is 4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Mine, 4 Coliseum.

The biggest advantage is adding Ancient Grudge to the sb. I love being able to man handle Tormod's Crypt so well with these and Pithing Needles. Being able to blow shit up like opposing Needles is nice as well even if we only have 2 targets for it.

Although we no longer have forest for a free Reverant Silence we dont get an important mana StP'd or Fanatic'd. No fetchlands mean no Stifles ftw. Still getting green through Gemstone/City means Emerald Charm is still playable.

I dont want it to seem like I cant settle on a build or Im indecisive but I want to test all options this bahroken archetype offers.

So far the gold lands and Grudge get an A+
Trop and Dryad Arbor got an A.

Oh and again, if your not playing Cephalid Sage do so. He's increased the decks ability to combo by about 10%.

The green answers aren't worth running over Chain of Vapor, because Chain of Vapor answers the same threats while answering the rest of the threats this deck has to deal with. Most of the time, all using a green answer is doing is reducing the number of outs this deck has to cast it, because Cephalid Coliseum can't pay for it. If you're using Dryad Arbor, Reverent Silence isn't even free, because it's costing you G from the Summoning Sickness and you can't protect it from Daze. You're also giving the opponent a free Time Walk whenever you're holding a Pithing Needle against a Tormod's Crypt. For these reasons, the 3c mana base should be built around the green fetchlands: 4 Windsept Heath, 1 Tropical Island, 1 Bayou and 1 Dryad Arbor, where the mana base gets to run both a greater amount of dual lands and Dryad Arbors while protecting your Dryad Arbors from removal.

With the 5c mana base, Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation are good because they can fight thru' the discard and counters protecting the opponent's hate, but it also offers some MD considerations in Tireless Tribe, Firestorm and Manabond. Tireless Tribe is a white Putrid Imp, but he is immune to direct damage and can block 99% of the threats in the format. Firestorm is an uncounterable outlet that clears the board, reduces the clock and answers Yixlid Jailor and Jotun Grunt. Manabond is a One with Nothing that hits the second land drop for Deep Analysis or Cephalid Coliseum and continues to trigger at the end of your turn to discard your Dredgers.

Manabond seems like it should be broken some how to me, but it doesn't appear to be more useful than the other options available.

It sounds like you're really close to the version of the German list I run, which is just -1 Wonder for +1 Golgari Thug, -1 Dakmor Salvage for +1 Cabal Therapy, -8 blue lands for + 8 gold lands and I'm considering cutting a gold land to put the Dakmor Salvage back in. Having a Dakmor Salvage or Dryad Arbor in the deck seems really, really good, because you can either Dredge back the Dakmor Salvage to cast a Deep Analysis on the following turn or Dread Return the Dryad Arbor to do the same.

Edit: When SBing against Threshold, cut FKZ, Sage and go down to 1 Dread Return. When SBing against Goblins game 2, cut Cabal Therapy. After that cut Land, Golgari Thug and Putrid Imps against either deck. Against combo I SB the same as I do against Threshold for whatever hoser I'm bringing in.

[Bane of the Living]

Here we go...


The green answers aren't worth running over Chain of Vapor, because Chain of Vapor answers the same threats while answering the rest of the threats this deck has to deal with. Most of the time, all using a green answer is doing is reducing the number of outs this deck has to cast it, because Cephalid Coliseum can't pay for it. If you're using Dryad Arbor, Reverent Silence isn't even free, because it's costing you G from the Summoning Sickness and you can't protect it from Daze. You're also giving the opponent a free Time Walk whenever you're holding a Pithing Needle against a Tormod's Crypt. For these reasons, the 3c mana base should be built around the green fetchlands: 4 Windsept Heath, 1 Tropical Island, 1 Bayou and 1 Dryad Arbor, where the mana base gets to run both a greater amount of dual lands and Dryad Arbors while protecting your Dryad Arbors from removal.


Chain of Vapor is great your right but it doesnt doesnt actually answer the card unless you can Therapy your opponent as well. That might be the case with Leyline of the Void but certainly not Elephant Grass from Enchantress or Ghostly Prison from Stax.

Although Arbor has summoning sickness you can still cast Reverant Silence with it out. Its still a forest. I hear what your saying about playing around Daze but who the hell is playing Daze and Leyline? Flash? Anti Flash Fish?

I dont care if I play Pithing Needle and pass the turn. Its better than doing nothing against Crypt and passing. What are you talking about with timewalking?

Protecting Arbor from removal?? I assume you mean you fetch for it eot but that doesnt matter very much since most of the removal is instant speed anyways. Shit I forgot about Chain Lightning!!1!



With the 5c mana base, Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation are good because they can fight thru' the discard and counters protecting the opponent's hate, but it also offers some MD considerations in Tireless Tribe, Firestorm and Manabond. Tireless Tribe is a white Putrid Imp, but he is immune to direct damage and can block 99% of the threats in the format. Firestorm is an uncounterable outlet that clears the board, reduces the clock and answers Yixlid Jailor and Jotun Grunt. Manabond is a One with Nothing that hits the second land drop for Deep Analysis or Cephalid Coliseum and continues to trigger at the end of your turn to discard your Dredgers.


Ray of Revelation is pretty shitty since you cant flash it back to hit Leyline. Aka useless. Grudge on the other hand is another sweet way to take care of Crypt so I agree with you there.

Tireless tribe isnt better than Putrid because it isnt black. I rarely care if I lose an Imp since it makes me a couple zombies anyways.

Firestorm you obviously havent tried yet. The amount of fails as opposed to the godley situation where it wipes the board do not parallel. You want to discard your hand asap. If your on the play you cant use it to discard since you dont have any targets. Are you really gonna play this turn one to hit your opponent and yourself for 1 damage to discard 2 cards? You would play this over Putrid? Over Carefull Study???

Manabond is also subpar compared to Putrid. Aka not a black creature, cant flashback therapy/DR, and doesnt give you zombie tokens.



Manabond seems like it should be broken some how to me, but it doesn't appear to be more useful than the other options available.


No LED is broken. Breakthrough is broken. Hell even Brainstorm is broken. This card sucks my balls.



It sounds like you're really close to the version of the German list I run, which is just -1 Wonder for +1 Golgari Thug, -1 Dakmor Salvage for +1 Cabal Therapy, -8 blue lands for + 8 gold lands and I'm considering cutting a gold land to put the Dakmor Salvage back in. Having a Dakmor Salvage or Dryad Arbor in the deck seems really, really good, because you can either Dredge back the Dakmor Salvage to cast a Deep Analysis on the following turn or Dread Return the Dryad Arbor to do the same.


If your not playing 8 u/b lands and wonder your not playing the german list so dont reference it. Im playing my own list that my team has been developing since Bridge was previewed. I see no need for Dakmor in the deck. If I need to Dread Return an arbor Im in trouble. Id much rather reanimate a Sage and dredge the rest of my deck.



Edit: When SBing against Threshold, cut FKZ, Sage and go down to 1 Dread Return. When SBing against Goblins game 2, cut Cabal Therapy. After that cut Land, Golgari Thug and Putrid Imps against either deck. Against combo I SB the same as I do against Threshold for whatever hoser I'm bringing in.

Never ever sb out your therapies. I take 1-2 out most just because they're way too synergistic with the deck. Using it as a sac outlet to get zombies or as a discard outlet on yourself is way too valuable. Therapy naming Mogg Fanatic is a key play. I would cut your combo win for Leylines and a drop one of a couple four ofs for Needles.

[BreathWeapon]

I'm not going to bother using Reverent Silence over Chain of Vapor on the off chance I'll encounter either of those decks. I've never seen either of them online let alone in real life.

If Ichorid is a threat, then aggro-control will consider using Leyline as opposed to Crypt, because it's free turn 0 disruption that can't be discarded or removed by the same answers for Crypt. It's not that uncommon for people who play in both Vintage and Legacy to play Leyline in aggro-control in anticipation for Ichorid.

Arbor has summoning sickness, and thus Arbor prevents Pithing Needle from being cast on your first turn, as opposed to another land resolving Pithing Needle on your first turn. You just can't count on Arbor resolving any of your spells, which is why I use green fetchlands and a single copy of Arbor.

If I put a Windswept Heath on the board and pass, then the opponent is going to cast Goblin Lackey over Mogg Fanatic. If I put a Dryad Arbor on the board and pass, then the opponent is going to cast Mogg Fanatic over Goblin Lackey. Winswept Heath and pass communicates Threshold, so the Goblins opponent is going to be forced to misplay against Ichorid.

You don't understand what Ray of Revelation is for, it's just a singleton that can be SBed in so the deck has an answer to Enchantments like Solitary Confinement, Ghostly Prison, Propaganda, Elephant Grass etc. that it can dredge into. Otherwise, it's just another card the deck can SB in to remove Leyline or Planar Void (where you can flash it back before it triggers).

I never said that Tireless Tribe was better than Putrid Imp, rather Tireless Tribe is Putrid Imp 5-8 if the deck chooses to run more outlets over another card.

Firestorm is similar to Darkblast in that it's a SB card that can remove creature based hate while retaining a useful function within the dredge engine. Even with out a creature on the board, it still has at least two targets, which is enough to start dredging (RTC).

Manabond isn't that awful, it's at least an improvement over One with Nothing. As I said, I wouldn't run it over other cards in the deck, but it seems like it could be good in a Dredge shell.

I don't see a reason not to run Dakmor Salvage, it's an all around useful card. Being able to Dread Return a Dryad Arbor for the mana has won me a few games where I couldn't Dread Return anything else of value, I wouldn't dismiss it as a useless play.

"Your list" is a matter of perspective, it just sounds like Florien Fisher's list with the changes to the mana base and additions to the SB I suggested on the last page. I don't think the decision to run 8 U/b lands and Wonder was as critical to the deck's shell than the decision to run 12 lands, Putrid Imp and to an extent Cephalid Sage. I used those 8 U/b lands for Abolish more than I used them for Wonder. As long as I'm using that shell, I'll give all due respect to the original list, it's tournament winning results and the inventor.

I don't find Therapy to be useful against Goblins game two on the draw. The opponent is going to resolve either his Tormod's Crypt or Mogg Fanatic (or both) before I can discard either of them. I'd rather have as many answers to Tormod's Crypt as I can muster and the ability to go off as soon as possible rather than the ability to discard my Dredgers and discard Goblin Matron when it matters the least.

Edit: I cut Leyline entirely, because I never SBed it in. The second and third games all come down to fighting the opponent's SB hate. Worrying about Mogg Fanatic comes second to worrying about Leyline or Crypt.

[Bane of the Living]

I'm not going to bother using Reverent Silence over Chain of Vapor on the off chance I'll encounter either of those decks. I've never seen either of them online let alone in real life.

The thing is sometimes you need to wait 2-3 turns for your hate card/hatecard mana to come online. If you bounce it mid game your opponent can recast it if you dont combo off the very next turn. Especially when black decks run Dark Ritual or Mox Diamond.

You actually make me curious how many IRL events do you play in? Playing random noobs all day on MWS isnt even like playing real legacy. Where do you live? Whats the name of the store you play at, and how many people show for tournaments?



If Ichorid is a threat, then aggro-control will consider using Leyline as opposed to Crypt, because it's free turn 0 disruption that can't be discarded or removed by the same answers for Crypt. It's not that uncommon for people who play in both Vintage and Legacy to play Leyline in aggro-control in anticipation for Ichorid.

If Ichorid becomes good enough for non black decks to run Leyline Ill shit a brick and throw it through a Police Cruiser.

You really need to stop drawing parallels to Vintage versions of decks. Ive asked you to do this several times before. This is www.mtgthesource.com this isnt TMD where some people there cross formats. They're radically different decks and metagames so I see no point in the references.



Arbor has summoning sickness, and thus Arbor prevents Pithing Needle from being cast on your first turn, as opposed to another land resolving Pithing Needle on your first turn. You just can't count on Arbor resolving any of your spells, which is why I use green fetchlands and a single copy of Arbor.

True which is why im having a love hate relationship with it. Fetchlands in Ichorid however make Stifle shoe you in the nuts harder than the deck can handle. Everyone and their little brother is playing Stifle right now thanks to combo, why should it totally fuck up our gameplan too? Ive lost games to Stifle when I would've had Breakthrough or Deep Analysis mana otherwise.



If I put a Windswept Heath on the board and pass, then the opponent is going to cast Goblin Lackey over Mogg Fanatic. If I put a Dryad Arbor on the board and pass, then the opponent is going to cast Mogg Fanatic over Goblin Lackey. Winswept Heath and pass communicates Threshold, so the Goblins opponent is going to be forced to misplay against Ichorid.

Your trick is cute and all but any good goblins player should be playing their Lackey anyways. You mogg or gempalm the arbor then swing so you have a second turn lackey trigger. Im sure this would change if you opponent was schooled enough in the matchup but still I think being "stifle proof" is far more important.



You don't understand what Ray of Revelation is for, it's just a singleton that can be SBed in so the deck has an answer to Enchantments like Solitary Confinement, Ghostly Prison, Propaganda, Elephant Grass etc. that it can dredge into. Otherwise, it's just another card the deck can SB in to remove Leyline or Planar Void (where you can flash it back before it triggers).

I do understand its for nuking enchantments but thats non leyline and I dont see why its worth the precious leyline hate spots. You cant cast if before Leyline/PV trigger because they are replacement effects. Read [b]instead[b]. It doesnt say "When a card goes into the graveyard rfg it."



I never said that Tireless Tribe was better than Putrid Imp, rather Tireless Tribe is Putrid Imp 5-8 if the deck chooses to run more outlets over another card.

Whats the point in coming into a thread and making suggestions for cards that are worse than ones played? Do you really need that many imp effects? You still have Therapy, LED, and Breakthrough. If you really want more add Carefull Study, at least it dredges things.



Firestorm is similar to Darkblast in that it's a SB card that can remove creature based hate while retaining a useful function within the dredge engine. Even with out a creature on the board, it still has at least two targets, which is enough to start dredging (RTC).

Ive had no issues with creatures when playing this deck. Mine are better, faster, and usually death proof. I did read the card and I responded by stating you only have 2 targets turn one. Yourself and your opponent. Reading my post for the win.



Manabond isn't that awful, it's at least an improvement over One with Nothing. As I said, I wouldn't run it over other cards in the deck, but it seems like it could be good in a Dredge shell.

Why do we need an improvement for One with Nothing? Whos playing that card and why? Why wouldnt you run a blue card since you have 4 more blue sources in the deck?



I don't see a reason not to run Dakmor Salvage, it's an all around useful card. Being able to Dread Return a Dryad Arbor for the mana has won me a few games where I couldn't Dread Return anything else of value, I wouldn't dismiss it as a useless play.

To each his own. I havent missed mine.



"Your list" is a matter of perspective, it just sounds like Florien Fisher's list with the changes to the mana base and additions to the SB I suggested on the last page. I don't think the decision to run 8 U/b lands and Wonder was as critical to the deck's shell than the decision to run 12 lands, Putrid Imp and to an extent Cephalid Sage. I used those 8 U/b lands for Abolish more than I used them for Wonder. As long as I'm using that shell, I'll give all due respect to the original list, it's tournament winning results and the inventor.

If your suggesting its a really good list I agree. I run 1 less land then him, 1 more therapy, and no wonder. I think running the 8 u/b lands was key to his success. (stifle proof). Florien isnt the inventor of this deck. Its been worked on in bits and pieces for years. Claiming 'inventorship' to magic decks is completely inane. He was running 12 lands I dont really understand you..

I have won 2 tournaments with this deck. I went 4-2 with it at a 44 person tournament. I assure you as I continue to play the deck I'll rack a nice amount of wins.



I don't find Therapy to be useful against Goblins game two on the draw. The opponent is going to resolve either his Tormod's Crypt or Mogg Fanatic (or both) before I can discard either of them. I'd rather have as many answers to Tormod's Crypt as I can muster and the ability to go off as soon as possible rather than the ability to discard my Dredgers and discard Goblin Matron when it matters the least.

To each his own. I find Therapy very important to the decks engine.



Edit: I cut Leyline entirely, because I never SBed it in. The second and third games all come down to fighting the opponent's SB hate. Worrying about Mogg Fanatic comes second to worrying about Leyline or Crypt.

Why are you talking about creature removal then? Leyline obviously gets priority over shit like Firestorm.

[Bovinious]

@ BreathWeapon: I'm a little confused, you say that the green answers arnt any better then Chain of Vapor, then you advocate a manabase of 4 Heath, 1 Bayou, 1 Trop, 1 Arbor. That weird manabase doesnt seem worthwhile at all if your not running any green answers. Then you talked about the 5 color manabase when you just advocated some green-based manabase (for a UB deck). Those whole last 2 posts just got a big WTF in my mind, and I was also perplexed why you brought up cards worse than Putrid Imp in a deck that really isnt looking for more outlets.

Assuming a 5-color manabase, what does everyone think the best sideboard is? With the current non-prevalence of Leyline I think it should look something like this:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Pithing Needle
3 Ancient Grudge

If Leyline becomes more prevalent it would make sense to add some Emerald Charms but at the moment the only decks running Leyline are IGGY and Truffle Shuffle. Some Ray of Revelations may be wanted to combat non-Leyline problem enchantments such as the ones BreathWeapon mentioned.

[BreathWeapon]

I use and advocate a 5c mana base, however, for people using a 3c mana base, it's more consistent to build that mana base around green fetchlands, reducing the number of Arbors in the deck while increasing the deck's access to Arbors and colored mana. If Stifle is a meta game concern, then that mana base has to be reconsidered, but disregarding Stifle, it's a more efficient means of running a 3c mana base or U/g mana base with Arbor. You don't have to advocate a mana base in order to point out how a mana base can be improved, and just because the mana base is green doesn't mean you have to run Reverent Silence with it (at most it just means you want to play with Arbor).

Because those cards were worth consideration. For people who want another Putrid Imp instead of another Golgari Thug etc., Tireless Tribe allows people to adjust the ratios of their decks accordingly. For people who want an answer to creatures but don't want to run an awful card like Sickening Shoal to remove them, Firestorm is an alternative that has synergy with the Dredge engine. One of the most irritating things about this deck is that it can't SB answers against multiple hate cards with out losing some functionality in its engine, unless those answers have synergy with the Dredge engine and can replace other functional Dredge engine cards. For instance, against some one splitting their hate between Yixlid Jailor, Samurai of the Pale Curtain or Jotun Grunt etc. and Tormod's Crypt, you can bring in answers for the creatures in the form of Firestorm and/or Darkblast and safely replace their counter parts for with no ill effects.

Manabond was just an interesting card that could have some application for some one else to find down the road.

@Bane

I'm not falling for the straw man argument, those questions have nothing to do with the fact that Enchantress and Stax are not a significant enough part of the meta game to be used as an argument for Reverent Silence over Chain of Vapor. If non Leyline or Planar Void enchantments are that much of a problem, then it's better to SB in a Ray of Revelation instead of counting on a Reverent Silence in your opening hand and a target on the board before you start to dredge.

Leyline of the Void is a hate card that was designed for non-black decks to use against graveyard dependent decks. Black decks can consider using Planar Void, Extirpate or Yixlid Jailor before Leyline of the Void, but other decks are stuck with Tormod's Crypt (which often isn't enough) or Leyline of the Void. If a deck wants to dedicate SB space against Ichorid, then Leyline of the Void is the most likely card to be added to people's SBs. You can't advocate that people should be using Leyline of the Void because Ichorid is really broken and then gawk at the idea of blue decks running Leyline of the Void. If people want to hate the deck out, then they'll use Leyline of the Void. Considering the cards I've seen in people's SBs just for Empty the Warrens, seeing Leyline of the Void wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

Drawing parallels to either Vintage or Extended Dredge is useful. I'd rather learn from people who have piloted the deck and hated the deck on a die hard or PTQ level than pretend that other formats don't exist and that their lessons are completely useless to Legacy. Are their differences between the decks and metagames, yes, but how Dredge reacts to hate games 2 and 3 is almost identical across every constructed format.

Planar Void is not a replacement effect, RTC. Using a single Ray of Revelation isn't taking up an anti-Leyline of the Void slot, it's just adding an anti-Leyline of the Void slot that serves double duty else where.

"If your on the play you cant use it to discard since you dont have any targets." You then contradicted yourself in the following sentence, "Are you really gonna play this turn one to hit your opponent and yourself for 1 damage to discard 2 cards?" I assumed the first sentence was a factual statement, but looking back on it, it must have meant something along the lines of "you can't remove a creature on the play and have to wait to use it as a discard outlet until a creature is played." That was just a confusing paragraph on your part, you'll have to excuse me if I misread it.

That last point is another straw man argument, SBing in answers for Crypt and Leyline over my own Leyline has nothing to do with SBing in Firestorm over my own Leyline, because I wouldn't SB in Firestorm either in that match up. All Leyline is really good for is Goblins, and you have to worry about your opponent's dedicated graveyard hate before you can worry about protecting your Bridges. Firestorm would get priority over Leyline if creature based graveyard hate was an actual concern.

[laststepdown]

I'm sorry, but someone needs to sig this.


If Ichorid becomes good enough for non black decks to run Leyline Ill shit a brick and throw it through a Police Cruiser.

I don't have any clue what you guys are arguing about, as I've had a certain somebody special on my Ignore List for about 5 months now (personally, it was that, or leave the Source). Regardless, this quote brought a smile to my day. It's little things like this that remind me that while being resourceful, the users on the Source are humorous as well.

So anyway, back to the deck. I'm still running a singleton Dakmoor Salvage. I'm not sure if that is right. I haven't found a time where it was relevant, and I'm never happy to 'just dredge 2'. Has everyone else already pulled it from their lists?

[Bovinious]

@ laststepdown: I'm as confused as you are about what's being argued about, and I'm hearing both sides of the convo. I didn't know there was an ignore function, good to know I suppose. I've pulled the Dahkmor Salvage from my list as it seems most everyone has, it just seems too slow to me to waste a dredge on it, put it into play tapped, then flashback a deep analysis next turn. I'd rather just dredge those 2 draw steps for 5-6 and win the game. Also, Salvage sucks in your opening hand, it doesnt let you cast Imp/Breakthrough turn 1, its basically half a Golgari Thug in the opening hand, doesnt seem needed to me.

@ BreathWeapon: Leyline of the Void is good against more than just goblins, I'd SB it in against Thresh, IGGY, LFTL, Survival varients, Ichorid mirror, the list goes on. I didn't think it was in there for the sole purpose of protecting your Bridges vs. goblins and the like, I was under the impression that it was also a hate card we can afford to run since we pretty much need stuff that costs 0-1 because of our low land count, and Leyline costs 0, all this is addition to protecting our Bridges. Correct me if I'm wrong here anyone.

[BreathWeapon]

The card was added to Dredge in order to improve the first game of the Goblins match up, past that people who SB it in over answers to the opponent's hate are doing themselves a disservice. The card seems like it should be more useful than it is, but it isn't, because it's taking up SB space for more relevant cards. Unless a deck is just as disabled by Leyline of the Void as you are, and I doubt it, you're better off answering the opponent's hate instead of trying to hate him back. If it's Leyline and some bounce vs Leyline and Mystical Tutor for bounce, who do you think has strategic superiority Vs. IGGY POP (not that the match up would be good other wise)? It's the same for Survival (which shouldn't care at all) and Threshold to an extent.

Yes, Leyline of the Void can affect other decks, but that's really only a justification if you MD it, otherwise it should be coming out for answers or, IMO, no where to be found.

[Bovinious]

I just tried this deck out at my local tourney yesterday, and it was the nuts. I went 4-1, en route to a top-2 split. I won all my game 1s and my only loss involved triple Extirpate game 2 on Bridge, Ichorid, and GGT, and a hardcasted Leyline game 3 via Dark Ritual (I hadnt SBed in any Leyline hate b/c I didnt think Leyline was there). The list I ran used the 5 color lands although I could only get 2 Gemstone mines so I had to use Watery Graves (ew) for the other 2, and I also had to run 2 Flame-Kin Zealot b/c I couldnt find a Cephalid Sage before the tourney, but it didnt matter the deck still did its thing. The SB I used was the following:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Emerald Charm

I figured I'd cut the the Leylines and actually think BreathWeapon is right that it isnt really needed, I play against Thresh and crushed them anyways, no need to distort my gameplan w/ SBed Leylines. I'm not even sure its worthwhile to have as protection vs Goblins b/c if you play it right 1 Fanatic should RFG all your Bridges, and you can just go Ichorid beats/Dread Return a fat GGT to win if need be. I rather like this SB, though if Leylines get more popular I would add more Emerald Charms.

[Bane of the Living]

Round One r/g ponza

I start with Putrid Imp and win turn 3ish. He thinks its a fluke. Game two goes similar but slower, he plays a Stone Rain and Creeping Mold before dying. He was pissed to be playing a land destruction deck against 'manaless' ichorid.

1-0

I play against Tim playing Rabit Wombat. I combo off all over easily stalling to hold out for Cephalid x2 LED one game and LED Breakthrough another.

2-0

I play against Phaerimmarchlord the reigning Western Mass champion playing D&T with a blue splash. Game one is elementary, he starts with Isamaru, I start with LED x2 w/ Breakthrough getting the turn one win. Game two I keep a hand that doesnt chain dredges and he drops Meddling Mage naming Dread Return. He gets Jitte and kills my Bridgeless army of Meobas and Ichorids. game three I kill him turn 2 before he gets to two mana for anything trickey.

3-0

I get paired down against Slay playing Aluren. Game one I start very slowly by going to my discard phase. Then I hit him with meoba->therapy->bridge tokens a few times. Taking his hand away and killing him slowly. Game two I combo out on him mercilessly. I side in Emerald Charms to stop anything.

4-0

I decide to kill my opponent than take a draw into top eight. This is Roddy playing 5c slivers. He opens with something irrlevant like Brainstorm and I go to my discard phase laughing inside. Next turn I play LED and Breakthrough starting with the troll for the win. He watches in amazement. Game two I kill him turn one after his turn one of Plains. He laughs like a zombified madman because I can kill turn one.

5-0

Top Eight

I play against Slay again.

Game one I combo out turn two unopposed. Game two I get a slow hand and he drops deed to clear me out and wipe my bridges killing his own men. I rape his hand with Therapy to stop his combo but he drops another deed and a witness to get it again. Game three goes similair but I get a busted turn one hand that fizzles finding no dredge chain. He plays two engineered plagues one naming Horror, one naming Zombies. I find no green mana for emerald charms. I sb'ed out Dread Returns and cant get a gravetroll.

5-1

What a fucking bummer.

[Black-Op]

First of all: Big up to the mods and members of The Source! I realy like the forum and the up to date info it profides on my favorit magic format! Thumbs up from Holland! :laugh:

Now let's get down to business, I've been watching this thread for quite a while now and I've got some questions about the deck:

- Does chrome mox deserve a place? Seems to me that it can help to have the extra mana in the first turn.

- Do 10 lands get the ball roling? (I've been testing with 10 and that seems enough to me, but I haven't taken the deck to a tournament yet)

- I realy don't like the idea of arbor, when you play them don't you get a lot of removal heading it's way? Also not being able to tap for the right mana game 1 seems pretty bad to me.

Thanks in advance!

[Bane of the Living]

First of all: Big up to the mods and members of The Source! I realy like the forum and the up to date info it profides on my favorit magic format! Thumbs up from Holland! :laugh:

Now let's get down to business, I've been watching this thread for quite a while now and I've got some questions about the deck:

- Does chrome mox deserve a place? Seems to me that it can help to have the extra mana in the first turn.

- Do 10 lands get the ball roling? (I've been testing with 10 and that seems enough to me, but I haven't taken the deck to a tournament yet)

- I realy don't like the idea of arbor, when you play them don't you get a lot of removal heading it's way? Also not being able to tap for the right mana game 1 seems pretty bad to me.

Thanks in advance!

Its always nice to get people on here from different parts of the world. Legacy is a very internationally diverse format for one so under promoted. What kind of metagame do you have where you play?

Chrome Mox I tested and was never too happy with. For the same reasons as Force of Will and Unmask actually. I never liked pitching the spell. This deck is very unforgiving with the hands it gives you, more often than not you dont have a wide selection of cards to imprint/pitch. Id never want to imprint my only guy with dredge, my Breakthrough, or a bridge.

If you feel like you want to go accelerated (aka more combo style) Id suggest Lotus Petal. It helps cast LED and Breakthroughs through Daze much better than waiting will turn two, and it helps cast Deep Analysis post LED. Otherwise you'd be discarding your second land.

Another reason Ive liked Lotus Petal is obviously the 5 color mana production. It lets you cast Putrid, activate Coliseum, and even play Ancient Grudge.

Ive settled on 12 lands after alot of playtesting. The thing is the deck probably only needs 10 lands maindeck but after sideboarding cards you rely on casting, such as Pithing Needle and Chain of Vapor, you need to adjust to about 12 lands. Id rather not sideboard lands in the deck. Ive tried doing so with Arbor since it also adds ability to cast Therapy against combo, but it felt like a waste of room in a precious 15 card board.

Not being able to tap for blue or black is Arbors only downfall. Im more than happy to have it hit by Fanatic or Swords to Plowshares turn one. This will likely save an Ichorid from StP or your bridges from being RfG'ed. Being able to block Lackey was pretty huge for me as well.

In the end I decided to cut it since I cant produce the mana I needed off it. I think if I do work on a Vintage list it will work its way into the deck along with Street Wraith since it goes more manaless and can afford the 'win more' stuff.

Good luck with smashing the format!

EDIT

I plan on taking the deck to Syracuse tomorrow. Ill be sure to write an extensive tournament report.

[Black-Op]

The meta here in holland is pretty rougish, most tournaments have 40+ attendents (their is a legacy tournament at least every 2 months). Legacy is realy on the rise over here, although that doesn't account to much since the magic community isn't very big.
The meta breaks down to (+/-):
40% agro-control: Some Thresh, Pikula, Terrageddon, but at least half of the decks are rouge Fish, B/W, etc.
0- 20% combo: Last tourney I saw 1 TES, 1 Solidarity and..... 1 Fluctuator!!!:tongue:
20% control: Landstill, Staxx, The Rock, Truffle Shuffle like decks
20 - 30% agro: Goblins, Raffinity and Sui Black
The rest is undefinable rouge stuff.

Moving on to the more on topic stuff.
I'll give the give the petals a try. I thought being able to flashback Deep Analysis or play a Therapy before a Breaktrough, Imp, etc. on turn 1 could prove valuable. Although I'm still not convinced that going for speed is good, the deck is pretty damn fast as it is. Also playing around Daze by waiting a turn isn't that bad. (I realy got to make up my mind...)

As for the landcount, I haven't tested a lot with sb jet, so you're probably right about that.

Arbor is in my opinion too much of a liability, I wouldn't want to waste a landdrop on it. The goblin matchup isn't that hard, and game one I'm more than happy when they drop and even hit with a Lackey, if that means they didn't drop a Fanatic. But more important, I'm almost never in need of extra creatures to sac while going off. It's always nice to have some redundancy, but the elevated risc of mana issues and mulligans it brings with it is too high imo.

Good luck tomorrow! I'm looking forward to reading your report.

[Bryant Cook]

I went 6-0 today with the updated EPIC list... more to come.

[APriestOfGix]

i was playing this kid...

He's at 4, i have ichorid, ichorid, narcromeba, narc, narc, narc out. i dread a flame kin zelot (he has 2 ground blockers and a STP) with 2 ichorid and a narc. He STP's the Flame, i swing FTW, he says the zelots ability never works...

LOL


I love this deck!

[Black-Op]

I was browsing through the thread once again and noticed something: no mentioning of Darkblast (as sb material that is) what so ever. I think the card can realy help against Goblins, Thresh (kills Mage) and random stuff like Jailer. O and it also dredges for 3, making it easy to board in. I think it will be more usefull then the leyline in most matchups.

[Cait_Sith]

Darkblast also kills of your own Bridges, so it becomes useless if you have more than one in your graveyard. Also, with a clock of easily three turns I don't see a need to try to race Goblins.

[C.P.]

I just piloted the deck today in 30ish people tourney in Canada.
I played against:

Goblins - Draw because of the clock
BR LD Stax - Won in 2
Goblins - Won in 2
B/G Disruption - Won in 2
Drew into T8

T8

Affinity - Won in 2

T4

RGB Zoo - Lost in 3 (he got fanatic on turn 1 all three games lol)

I did not run Leyline maindeck, and also did not run green.
The field was full of Landstill and Threshold, but I did not get to play against them all day.

[Tacosnape]

Can anyone suggest what the best ways to beat this deck are? It made top 4 at our local tournament Saturday and I barely edged it with GBW Survival. I lost game 1 horribly, managed to Loaming Shaman 25+ cards game 2, and got game 3 with Extirpate on Bridge from Below and double Plague on Illusion/Horror. I don't think I'll consistently get the hands/results I had post-board, though.

Also, this deck last night picked up the nickname "Kid Ichorid," (A parody on Kid Icarus, obviously) which I find to be incredibly catchy.

[Xero]

Can anyone suggest what the best ways to beat this deck are? It made top 4 at our local tournament Saturday and I barely edged it with GBW Survival. I lost game 1 horribly, managed to Loaming Shaman 25+ cards game 2, and got game 3 with Extirpate on Bridge from Below and double Plague on Illusion/Horror. I don't think I'll consistently get the hands/results I had post-board, though.

Generally, I would Extirpate Dread Return rather than Bridge. Most Survival decks can kill some of their own critters, and Ichorid can't win the game immediatly without D.R. If you see a lot of Ichorid, you could run 1 Yixlid Jailer in the SB, although it's pretty narrow.

[C.P.]

Can anyone suggest what the best ways to beat this deck are?

If you're playing a fast deck, like goblins or its like, Crypt that slows them down couple turns should be enough. Extirpate is pretty good answer if you're on play, and just make sure that you take out the key card that they would need at the time. Jailer, while bad in every other matchup, will do if you play survival.
Honestly, though, the best way of deal with the deck is board in GY hate that also works against other decks like crypt and shaman, and hope for the best.

They can play through couple crypt and shaman, but I don't think anything else is worth the spot just yet. The deck is incredible, but very easy to hate out. It will stay in tier 1.5 range due to its nature. Well, unless they print black narcomeba and a free flashback vindicate.

[Tacosnape]

Generally, I would Extirpate Dread Return rather than Bridge. Most Survival decks can kill some of their own critters, and Ichorid can't win the game immediatly without D.R. If you see a lot of Ichorid, you could run 1 Yixlid Jailer in the SB, although it's pretty narrow.

Extirpating Dread Return is kind of difficult when they only run one or two copies (I think our local guy plays 2, and didn't have it in grave in game 3 which was when I saw the Extirpates.) Furthermore, nailing Bridge is the stronger play, I feel. Or if not overall, it's the stronger play once I've already got Plague on Illusions (Which was my turn 2 play.) But seriously, what are they going to do, Dread Return a Grave-Troll? Suits me just fine. I've got Bone Shredder and Swords to Plowshares all day long. Plus they can't use Dread Return very well when Plague shuts off Narcomoeba and Ichorid.

Yixlid Jailer is certainly an interesting idea, but using it in Survival makes me cringe. Although granted I can't imagine leaving Genesis in against Kid Ichorid, and that Squee isn't insanely useful in the match either. I suppose it's worth some testing.

Also, for what it's worth, I run GBW Survival, so my only easy way to get rid of my own creatures is via Cabal Therapy flashback, which I can't always do and can't do at instant speed. The only really sneaky thing I could do if I got enough time and mana would be to sacrifice a Loxodon Hierarch to its regeneration ability.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I've seen Mog Fanatic give bridge based decks problems.

[outsideangel]

So I played Ichorid to a 4-2 finish at Nats.

Round 1- vs. The Cheese Stands Alone

Game 1: I keep a fine hand with some discard outlets, dredgers, etc. I’m not sure what he’s playing so I slow roll it doing the draw -> discard, dredge deal for the first turn. He lays a blue land, so I keep up the dredge -> discard plan until I drop another dredger into the bin, at which point I feel safe enough to play out my discard outlets because if they get countered I can keep dredging. He doesn’t really do anything until turn three, when he Rituals out an Academy Rector and casts Cabal Therapy, but doesn’t flash it back. At this point I have no idea what he’s doing, since he can kill Rector but hasn’t. I manage to dredge up a Narcomoeba and a couple bridges, so I’m probably pretty good to win in the next couple turns, but on his fourth turn he casts Kaervek’s Spite, sacrificing all his permanents and discarding his hand. Rector triggers, fetching Barren Glory, and I can’t kill him before his upkeep.

SB: I bring in 4x Leyline of the Void, 3x Ancient Grudge, and 3x Ray of Revelation.

Game 2: I open with a Leyline, Therapy him a couple times, and let Ichorids go all the way while he struggles to find bounce through my discard.

Game 3: I mulligan, but my six will give me the third turn kill, which I think is fine against a deck whose combo costs 7. Turn 2 he Rituals out a Rector, misses a land drop, and in response to a Therapy on my turn three, Rituals out Spite. I’d dredged some 20 cards but didn’t see any of my Rays, so I just lose.

0-1

Round 2- vs. Threshold

I feel pretty bad about this match, because I get paired up against Alix, after Jesse and I told him the whole ride up about how he doesn’t need to worry about a bad Ichorid matchup, as there’s no way he’ll end up playing it.

Game 1: I play dredge -> discard with a Gravetroll for some three turns, which he can’t do anything about, until I hit some Narcomoebas and Ichorids, Therapy his hand away, Dread Return Sage, dredge the rest of my deck, and swing with a bunch of zombie tokens.

SB: I side in 4x Leyline and that’s it, because I know he has no board against me.

Game 2: Once again, I do the dredge -> discard thing for awhile until I can get a couple Therapies off of some Ichorids. Once his hand is clear of countermagic, I resolve a Breakthrough (which is absolutely huge) and just go wild. Despite the fact that I won, I played this game really terribly, almost decking myself with Cephalid Sage and complaining for two turns about how I couldn’t find the Zealot that was already in my yard. This matchup is so heavily in my favor that I crush him anyway, though I do feel pretty bad about it.

1-1

Round 3 vs. Mono-W Control

Game 1: He opens with a snowcovered plains, and I silently praise the pairings gods for giving me another matchup I almost can’t lose. I win this game turn four, and the only thing he does is play a Dawn Charm to counter a Cabal Therapy.

SB: 3x Ray of Revelation, 4x Chalice of the Void, 1x Pithing Needle

Game 2: My hand is kind of slow, but I know I have all the time in the world. I boarded out the Dread Returns combo, figuring I can just beat him down with Ichorids that I know he can’t stop. That’s exactly what I do, although he does manage to play fog effects for like three turns in a row. Still, sorcery speed removal is pretty worthless and I answer his enchantment protection, and there’s not much he can do.

2-1

Round 4 vs. Breakfast

Before the game we get deck checked, and I get warned about the condition of my sleeves. I’d meant to buy new ones but hadn’t had the chance.

Game 1: I don’t feel good about this match at all, though I do get a strong start. I Therapy away all his tutors and make a bunch of zombies. Just as I’m about to win the next turn, he somehow drops both combo pieces and just wins.

SB: 4x Leyline, 4x Chalice, 3x Ancient Grudge, 1x Pithing Needle

Game 2: I open with a Leyline and Therapy away his tutors, ensuring that he can’t find the singleton Stern Proctor he needs to answer Leyline. Zombies swing for the win.

Game 3: He mulligans and I Therapy him three times, leaving him with a hand of Force, Narcomoeba, Brainstorm, Land. Next turn he wins. Breakfast is some serious bullshit.

2-2

Round 5 vs. Elfball

Game 1: I mulligan, but keep a decent hand. My first two dredges flip all four Bridges, but no Narcomoebas, Ichorids, or additional dredgers. He Fireballs his own Wirewood Herald, removing all four of my Bridges and making it pretty much impossible for me to kill him before he can generate a ton of mana win Priest of Titania and kill me.

SB: I see that he doesn’t board anything, so I don’t board against him, either.

Game 2: I hardcast a Therapy first turn, taking a Priest of Titania, then play an LED, pitch my hand, and start dredging, using a Deep Anal to continue. He plays a mana elf and passes. Next turn I flashback a Therapy off of an Ichorid, snagging two Fireballs, and proceed to go off uninterrupted.

Game 3: He mulligans to a 4-card, no-land hand, and I get an absolutely nut-busted draw and kill him first turn.

3-2

Round 6 vs. Spring Tide

Anwar and I are both 3-2, so whoever wins gets some packs. Neither of us has tested this matchup at all, so we don’t really know what we’re doing.

Game 1: I open with a Careful Study, which he Forces. Next turn I play the Breakthrough I was baiting for and fill my yard. I throw out Therapies like it’s my job, stripping his hand down to basically nothing, and then get in there with zombies. My discard keeps him from doing much of anything, especially since he had to pitch to Force.

SB: I know he doesn’t have a board for me, so I don’t board in any counter-hate.

Game 2: I make him force a discard outlet, and then Merchant Scroll for Force on his turn. That slows me down a couple of turns, as I draw up to seven so I can discard and dredge. Fortunately the first dredge shows two more dredgers, so I feel comfortable in throwing out a Breakthrough, which surprisingly resolves and gives me enough cards to go off. I dredge all but 4 cards and play out all 4 Therapies, through he does Stroke me for 2, leaving me with two cards left in my library and only 6 unhasted Zombies in play. He has no cards in hand, but a topdecked Scroll or Freeze will win the game if I pass the turn. Fortunately for me, I have every creature in my deck in the yard, and exactly enough Zombies for two Dread Returns. I bring back Zealot and Grave-Troll, and swing in for the win.

Final record: 4-2

I didn’t see any graveyard hate all day. The only decks I lost to were combo decks with savage topdecks, which I pretty much couldn’t do a damn thing to stop. The deck is a lot of fun, definitely something I’d play again, though it’s probably not the best deck in the format.

[MattH]

I see you run some number of Careful Studies. Can you post your list?

[outsideangel]

I see you run some number of Careful Studies. Can you post your list?

I do run Careful Study over Putrid Imp, for two reasons.

First, it can be cast off of Cephalid Coliseum. I often keep hands with only a Coliseum for a land, so I want to be able to cast all my discard outlets reliably. Secondly, it has the word "draw" in the text, which makes it strong when you have dredgers in the yard. First turn land, LED, Study, crack LED in response discarding a Troll or Stinky is a strong opening, and after you've played dredge, discard, go against Threshold for a few turns Careful Study becomes almost a must-counter because with a couple dredgers in the bin it will show you a ton of cards.

I may want to play the same (or a very similar) list next weekend at the tournament in NoVA, so I'll wait before posting the exact list.

[Lego]

Yixlid Jailer is certainly an interesting idea, but using it in Survival makes me cringe. Although granted I can't imagine leaving Genesis in against Kid Ichorid, and that Squee isn't insanely useful in the match either. I suppose it's worth some testing.

It also kills Anger, which is sad. Have you considered something like Mogg Fanatic or Sakura-Tribe Elder? Do you play Vial? If so, Vialing in a Fanatic in response to a flashbacked Dread Return seems like a good play :)

[Adan]

It also kills Anger, which is sad. Have you considered something like Mogg Fanatic or Sakura-Tribe Elder? Do you play Vial? If so, Vialing in a Fanatic in response to a flashbacked Dread Return seems like a good play :)

That's Bullshi... ah, to be more polite, it won't work since the Bridge-Triggers will be on the Stack as Dread Return is played.

And they will resolve before Dread Return itself. Otherwise the Flame-Kin Zealot-Mechanism would not work.

So it's never never never a good play ;-)

I have to agree that Yixlid Jailer is insaneley good against ichorid, but it's useless against every other deck in Legacy.

[gnurbel2000]

That's Bullshi... ah, to be more polite, it won't work since the Bridge-Triggers will be on the Stack as Dread Return is played.

And they will resolve before Dread Return itself. Otherwise the Flame-Kin Zealot-Mechanism would not work.

So it's never never never a good play ;-)

I have to agree that Yixlid Jailer is insaneley good against ichorid, but it's useless against every other deck in Legacy.

Sorry, but the Bridge trigger is a "intervening if" trigger. That means it will check its condition "... if ~this is in your graveyard" on resolution again. So you can remove the Bridge in response to its trigger, without getting any tokens.
Rule 404.3

[Bryant Cook]

I'm not so sure about that, alot of Judges around here have disagreed with that.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I'm not so sure about that, alot of Judges around here have disagreed with that.He's right, Bridge from Below states "Whenever a nontoken creature is put into your graveyard from play, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token into play."

If you respond to the trigger by sacrificing a Fanatic, it's not in the graveyard so no tokens are created.

[Bane of the Living]

It says if its in your graveyard because it doesnt work when its in play. Why doesnt anyone understand this?

Both triggers go on the stack and its your bridge you decide which order they stack. You get your zombies.

[Watcher487]

It says if its in your graveyard because it doesnt work when its in play. Why doesnt anyone understand this?

Both triggers go on the stack and its your bridge you decide which order they stack. You get your zombies.

Bane pay attention.

You Dread Return saccing 3 critters. You put the BRIDGES ON THE STACK.
Then your opponent Vial's in the Fanatic, and sac's it to your dome, and the REMOVE BRIDGES FROM THE GAME goes ON THE STACK.

I don't see where you can order them your way.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

When the trigger resolves, the "if" makes it check if it's in a graveyard, if it isn't, then no tokens are created.

[Bane of the Living]

When the trigger resolves, the "if" makes it check if it's in a graveyard, if it isn't, then no tokens are created.

Ive had so many mixed rulings about this then. I understand what Watcher is saying but I dont see how that 'stifle's the trigger for the zombie tokens. I had a level two judge tell me the triggers remain on the stack and the 'if' clause applys to the card to clarify that Bridge works out of the graveyard rather than in play.

Can anyone pinpoint a ruling on this since its obviously important?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Q: I sacrifice my three creatures in play to Flashback Dread Return (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Dread%20Return), targeting Flame-Kin Zealot (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Flame-Kin%20Zealot) in my graveyard. In response, my opponent Extirpate (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Extirpate)s, targeting my Bridge from Below (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Bridge%20from%20Below) in response. Do the triggers go on the stack before Extirpate resolves, resulting in me getting my three 2/2 Zombies?

A: No, you will not get any Zombies. Bridge from Below's triggered abilities have the "intervening if" clause. In order for the ability to trigger, this additional condition must be true. When the ability goes to resolve, this condition must be true then as well. If it is not, the ability will do nothing. When you played Dread Return, you sacrificed three creatures, causing the ability of Bridge from Below to trigger three times. These triggers went on the stack on top of Dread Return. Then your opponent played Extirpate. As it has Split Second, no other spells or non-mana abilities could be played. When Extirpate resolves, the Bridge from Below in the graveyard, and all others found in any of the searched zones, will be removed from the game. Then Extirpate will go to the graveyard. When the Bridge from Below abilities on the stack attempt to resolve, the Bridge from Below is no longer in your graveyard, so these abilities will do nothing.Source (http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/judgefinder.php?keywords=Bridge+from+Below&Submit2=Ask+the+Judge%21)

[morgan_coke]

bane,

you can stack the triggers if someone wogs, and everything goes to the yard at the same time, but not if they respond to your dread returning with a critter sac. I think that difference is where most of the confusion comes from.

[Illissius]

Right. And most of the time, removing the source does not stop the ability; the exception is when the ability explicitly checks for the source still being there, as Bridge and, among others, the Parallax enchantments do.

[outsideangel]

Here's the list I played at Nationals and the NoVA tournament:

Dudes:
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below

Dredgers:
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

Discard:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
2 Careful Study

Disruption:
4 Cabal Therapy

Draw:
4 Deep Analysis
4 Street Wraith

Dreads:
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

Domiciles:
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine

I'd say it's a very strong list. The only things I've actually lost to have been combo decks that Therapy just couldn't stop. (Breakfast twice, damn you Krieger! and Cheese Stands alone) The Threshold and Landstill matchups are both very strong, and I did manage to beat both Belcher and TES by racing.

I think the worst matchups the deck can have are fast combo-control, because on one hand you want to slow roll it, discarding Grave-Troll EoT and Dredging for a couple of turns to fill your yard and make their counters irrelevant, but against, say, Breakfast, you simply don't have that luxury because they are so fast. If you play a Breakthrough into Force first turn, you might not recover in time, but if you play it safe, you could very well die before doing anything relevant.

[Bane of the Living]

Here's the list I played at Nationals and the NoVA tournament:

Dudes:
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below

Dredgers:
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

Discard:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
2 Careful Study

Disruption:
4 Cabal Therapy

Draw:
4 Deep Analysis
4 Street Wraith

Dreads:
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

Domiciles:
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine

I'd say it's a very strong list. The only things I've actually lost to have been combo decks that Therapy just couldn't stop. (Breakfast twice, damn you Krieger! and Cheese Stands alone) The Threshold and Landstill matchups are both very strong, and I did manage to beat both Belcher and TES by racing.

I think the worst matchups the deck can have are fast combo-control, because on one hand you want to slow roll it, discarding Grave-Troll EoT and Dredging for a couple of turns to fill your yard and make their counters irrelevant, but against, say, Breakfast, you simply don't have that luxury because they are so fast. If you play a Breakthrough into Force first turn, you might not recover in time, but if you play it safe, you could very well die before doing anything relevant.

Dude take Street Wraith out for Putrid Imp and you'll see a change in your results vs Force of Will. Bait with the Imp. If they arent absolutely retarded they'll Force it. Then you Breakthrough away. Street Wraith only works if your deck is already rolling. You need to get by the wall Force is putting in front of you. Also dropping Imp turn one and discarding all your cards, then flashing back a therapy is a great play against combo.

[Obfuscate Freely]

It seems like the correct play against Force is usually to use your end step as the discard outlet.

Note that a Street Wraith in that situation lets you dredge a turn earlier than even a resolved Putrid Imp, when you are on the draw. On the play, Street Wraith won't let you dredge on your second turn (while an Imp will), but it does give you an extra dredge to make up for it.

[Syco_Tr0pic]

I've been running a list very similar to the one outsideangel posted, the only differences being +3 Putrid Imp, -2 Careful Study, -1 Deep Analysis, and I must say its working wonders for me. The Wraiths increase the number of power plays possible for the deck and also help with Ichorid reanimation. With Putrid Imp and Street Wraith in the deck I hardly see myself in the dire situations where the only cards you have available to remove are black dredgers and other Ichorids.
I really don't think Putrid Imp and SW are mutually exclusive in Almost Manaless Ichorid, both play an important role against FoW (Putrid as bait, SW's draw being uncounterable - not talking about Stifle here), also turn 1 Putrid Imp plus SW and a Dredger can perform some sick (and by no means hard to come by) starts.

[Bane of the Living]

It seems like the correct play against Force is usually to use your end step as the discard outlet.


This is generally true. You can dredge into a meoba + therapy to name Force of Will then combo unopposed from there. However they're talking about the Cephalid Breakfast matchup where your facing a turn 2-3 combo deck that plays force of will. Id just go for the nuts in this instance. Stalling to your discard phase isnt a strategy you should actually bank on since shit happens and you sometimes need to mulligan and you dont want to be on the draw.

Im sad to say its true but Im testing Serum Powder again..

The only thing this deck loses to is its own inconsistancies and a random Leyline of the Void. Ill just need to see how damaging it will be to remove Ichorids and Dredge critters from the game.

[Occam]

I won't be too worried about breakfast. Graveyard hate is going to be there regardless of whether breakfast is played, and breakfast would only encourage decks that can beat it. Even certain aggro has a near split with it. Even in an ichorid/breakfast matchup ichorid has the better potential for a broken draw, and a single piece of disruption could win it if you play around daze.

[outsideangel]

I've been running a list very similar to the one outsideangel posted, the only differences being +3 Putrid Imp, -2 Careful Study, -1 Deep Analysis, and I must say its working wonders for me.

I feel like Careful Study is almost always going to be better than Putrid Imp because you can cast it off of Coliseum, which is often the only land you have in play. Also the fact that it says "draw two cards" is HUGE when you already have a dredger in the bin.

My latest testing is going to lean towards something like -1 Deep Analysis, -1 Street Wraith, +2 Nether Shadow.

Shadow is something like Narcomoeba, i.e. a free creature, except that you can also remove him to Ichorid. The reason I'm testing Shadow over Ashen Ghoul or Nether Traitor is because Shadow can be returned with no lands in play, a situation I often find myself in when slow-rolling against Threshold or Landstill, and because for the purposes of Bridge from Below, the difference in power is negligible.

I'm hopeful that the increase in free creatures will improve the deck, and I feel that losing a Deep Analysis is alright because I rarely have the time or mana to cast more than one, and because the card is strongest in the matchups where I don't usually have any lands in play. I wouldn't want to replace Street Wraith with anything but a black creature, either, because I don't want to risk weakening Ichorid.

[Bane of the Living]

Carefull Study is a great card since it says "Draw" and since it cost :u: but I find the reasons to run Imp greater.

He helps dance around Tormods Crypt. This is the most important factor. A Carefull Study will dump something into your bin and thats the end of it. The opponent is then open to Crypt you and remove whatever you dumped in the bin. With Imp you can drop a couple threats at a time. You can start with a Dredge guy. If you opponent lets you go to your draw phase start the engine up. Hopefully you'll dredge into a copy of Ichorid or Bridge here. Even better is Therapy. I find putting Therapy in the bin will almost always trigger a Crypt activation.

Once you've been hit by Crypt you should still have Imp in play. At that point you can outlet the rest of your hand through him and combo. Carefull Study has nothing on this strategy, a very common important one.

Imp keeps your black creature count high, one of the reasons you want Street Wraith so much. This is important obviously.

Imp is a creature not a Sorcery. Huge difference. One can be used to flashback Therapy, one cant. One can be used to flashback Dread Return, one cant. One can attack for 2 a turn, one cant. Imp can give you 1-4 2/2 tokens with death, Carefull Study doesnt.

Finally, I prefer the Imp since he can discard the same Dredge guy multiple times unlike the one shot effect of Carefull Study. Likewise you'll want to dump more than 2 cards in the bin but thats all CS allows.

Trust me Ive made all these little tweaks through rigorous playtesting.

I concur 3 Deep Analysis is enough.

On other notes I added a Dakmor Salvage to my sideboard. Making the sb completely free or dredge friendly is key. Holding on to Chain of Vapor, Emerald Charm, Stifle, Force of Will, ect is awfull when you have a LED waiting to nuke your hand.

[outsideangel]

On other notes I added a Dakmor Salvage to my sideboard. Making the sb completely free or dredge friendly is key. Holding on to Chain of Vapor, Emerald Charm, Stifle, Force of Will, ect is awfull when you have a LED waiting to nuke your hand.

Wait wut?

What exactly does Salvage do? It's a crappy land you can dredge for a pathetic two cards. How does that help against anything?

[Belgareth]

Well I wouldn't advocate running it in the SB, however it does allow you to start the dredging off a LED/deep analysis hand or any blue source (I've seen people use lotus petal).
You can then be sure that you have a chance at getting a black source (even if it is a citp one).

[Duddelutten]

@Bane:
The Darkmoor Salvage is crappy, you must realise that A: It doesn't dredge more than pitty 2. B: It's not a black creature - as for example, Shambling Shell is. It doesn't add any effect to your deck.

...

In my Ichorid i have tried Phantasmagorian out, and i think it's fabolous! If you start with a draw, having 8 cards in hand (Without LED ofc) if you can discard a Phantasmagorian, instead you can discard three cards - wich is what you need with a start wich is that slow.
The funny part of it is when you have one in gy and on in hand - then you can almost discard whole your hand, at no cost or drawback at all - And if you runs out of dredge-stuff, you can allways pick up your PhantasmaG. and start dredgin' again!
Otherwhise, if you have no use of it, just remove it to ichorid... :)

[Silthyn]

@Bane:
The Darkmoor Salvage is crappy, you must realise that A: It doesn't dredge more than pitty 2. B: It's not a black creature - as for example, Shambling Shell is. It doesn't add any effect to your deck.

...

In my Ichorid i have tried Phantasmagorian out, and i think it's fabolous! If you start with a draw, having 8 cards in hand (Without LED ofc) if you can discard a Phantasmagorian, instead you can discard three cards - wich is what you need with a start wich is that slow.
The funny part of it is when you have one in gy and on in hand - then you can almost discard whole your hand, at no cost or drawback at all - And if you runs out of dredge-stuff, you can allways pick up your PhantasmaG. and start dredgin' again!
Otherwhise, if you have no use of it, just remove it to ichorid... :)

This, however, does only apply to your no-land-except-Coliseum version of this deck. Putrid Imp does all that, and a little more, in the land version.

[outsideangel]

This, however, does only apply to your no-land-except-Coliseum version of this deck. Putrid Imp does all that, and a little more, in the land version.

Wrong. Putrid Imp can be countered, where the discard Phantasmagorian EOT and then discard three to return it is completely uncounterable.

I've been meaning to test Phantasmagorian, along with a couple of other cards, like Undead Gladiator and Coffin Puppets, but I want to take it one change at a time.

[Silthyn]

Wrong. Putrid Imp can be countered, where the discard Phantasmagorian EOT and then discard three to return it is completely uncounterable.

That doesn't change the fact that Putrid Imp does what Phantasmagorian does, and a little more.

The question is, which is better? I would go for the imp, since you can sacrifice it to Cabal Therapy and Dread Return, and you can use it even if you got 1 card in your hand. It also beats for 2 every turn ;)

[Bovinious]

Hey guys, this may be a dumb idea, but what if we tryed making this deck truly mana-less? I was thinking something like this:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum

// Creatures
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage
4 [R] Nether Shadow
4 [PLC] Phantasmagorian
4 [FUT] Street Wraith

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [DS] Serum Powder

We would lose Breakthrough, Putrid Imp, and the ability to use Coliseum/DA via land which sometimes comes up, but at the same time lose our dependence on mana, with the exception of LED which Powder can help find as it finds Bazaar in Vintage. We dont absolutely need LED like vintage Ichorid needs Bazaar, so maybe this can work well. I havnt tested this much at all, I played on MWS against a vintage deck, dredging off his Memory jar was kinda tech but he still beat me 2-1. What does everyone think of this list/idea?

[Bryant Cook]

I like it alot, although, it seems to me instead of nether shadow Gigapede might be a better slot. Serving as another discard outlet.

[Bovinious]

Gigapeda may be worthwhile, possibly as a 2/2 split with Shadow to keep the black creature count high.

[C.P.]

Very interesting, but wouldn't that make the deck bit slower, and make it worse against combo?

[Bovinious]

I started goldfishing with the deck, and so far it hasnt seemed to have lost too much speed. I was always on the draw, however, to facilitate EOT discard ASAP, always choosing to draw would give combo an uninhibited turn 1 and possibly turn 2 as well if I dont hit therapies, which may weaken the combo matchup. I'm still not sure if its correct to choose to play second, but I think it may be correct because this build relies more on EOT if it cant find LED (no Breakthrough/Imp). Phantasmagorian has been the nuts so far in the 8 or so games I've played, especially when I get 2 of em going.

[Jaynel]

There was a little bit of discussion earlier in the thread about Serum Powder. I was always a firm believer that it wasn't the correct direction to take the deck. Unlike Vintage Ichorid, you have to find 2 cards at the very least - Lion's Eye Diamond and Cephalid Coliseum - plus a Dredger if you want to get things going right away. I would always cringe whenever I had to RFG multiple Bridge from Below or Golgari-Grave Trolls. Depending solely on Cephalid Coliseum also made me uncomfortable, because the strategy is considerably weakened if you ever mulligan normally. You simply don't have enough cards in hand to dump with LED and you don't reach Threshold quickly.

[Bovinious]

This is true, just a hand with LED isnt good enough, we need LED+coliseum+dredger, LED+DA+dredger, or LED+street wraith+dredger. Removing Narcs/Bridges/GGT etc is a drawback of Serum Powder, but the hand may be keepable anyway, and of course you can always Paris mulligan. Powder giving another 7 card hand rather than 6 can either draw me into the nuts, or allow me to EOT discard a full turn earlier. I agree that sometimes it sucks, but you dont always have to use it is the thing, and Ichorid will always be susceptible to losing to itself via drawing bad hands, and Powder doesnt really hurt but rather helps get a decent (or at least larger) hand. It may just be a personal preference but without the lands and castable spells, I feel much safer with Powders.

[outsideangel]

Losing Breakthrough has got to suck, a lot. All of the most broken plays I've made with the deck have involved Breakthrough. The card is easily better than LED, and with LED it's absolutely unfair. Anything that says "draw four cards" is busted when the drawback is actually a benefit.

[Bovinious]

Losing Breakthrough does suck a lot, Breakthrough is LED 5-8 and so much more. Thats why I'm not quite sure going all out manaless is worth it. Manaless doesnt even have a comparable substitute, Phantasmagorian can put enough relative cards into the yard sometimes, but never digs 4 deep or lets you combo off. As good as Breakthrough is, I'm still not sure its worth playing 6-8 additional lands for, although the lands also help w/ a SB plan. Speaking of which, does anyone have any ideas for a Manaless SB? Would it just be some lands and answers, seems about the only way it could be done.

[SillyMetalGAT]

I find that often if you have LED, Breakthrough, and a dredger in your hand its a 1st turn win.

[Bovinious]

Often if you get Land + Breakthrough + LED + Dredger (possibly into DA), you will get the first turn win or be in a dominating position. I dont think that focusing on the God-hand is the best defense though, the Manaless version (on the draw) can go Coliseum + LED + Dredger (possibly into a DA), which is almost as strong. I'm not knocking Breakthrough, but without it the first turn wins wont go down much, what we lose is the ability to drop 11 cards in the yard at will, or dredge 4 times for U, which may turn out to be too good to lose.

[Silthyn]

Manaless Ichorid loses the great sideboard with Emerald Charms, Ray of Revelation etc. That means it totally loses against Leyline of the Void, Propaganda and Ghostly Prison, without being able to have an answer after SB. With some lands, sure, you get vulnerable to Wastelands, but you get answers to all Enchantments and all Artifacts thrown at you. And you don't even care to get wasted 80% of the time, since you only need to use that land one time.
If I find a sideboard which can deal with LotV, then I will consider the deck. Right now, however, it is just too weak against any form of hate, but not really a bad idea.

What about Swords to Plowshares in sideboard? You could bring it in if you see Samurai of the Pale Curtain ^_^

[Jaynel]

I think bounce spells (like Chain of Vapor, etc) would be generally better than Swords to Plowshares. Bounce spells are incredibly versatile because they deal with Samurai of the Pale Curtain, as well as Leyline of the Void or other bothersome permanents. Though bounce is only a temporary solution, it buys you enough time to go off.

[Silthyn]

I think bounce spells (like Chain of Vapor, etc) would be generally better than Swords to Plowshares. Bounce spells are incredibly versatile because they deal with Samurai of the Pale Curtain, as well as Leyline of the Void or other bothersome permanents. Though bounce is only a temporary solution, it buys you enough time to go off.

Of course, I forgot Chain of Vapor. :3

I think I won't be able to get Pithing Needles anytime soon, so is there any good card that could replace it? My current sideboard:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Emerald Charm

Also, if you know your opponent sideboard Leyline of the Void, what should you side out in order to play CoV, Emerald Charm and (if he plays Ghostly Prison also) Ray of Revelation?

[Jaynel]

Depends on your list. I usually side out Cabal Therapies against decks packing Leyline (because they really wont have a chance to hit anything useful), and usually 2-4 Ichorids for other stuff.

Consider running Chalice of the Void to preempt Tormod's Crypt. Just be careful not to play your own LEDs into it.

My sideboard is as follows:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Reverent Silence
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Emerald Charm
1 Tropical Island (-1 Sea +1 Trop when siding in Reverent Silence)

[Redlotus27]

Has anyone established what is the preferred/standard sideboard strategy? If for example you run 4 Chain, 4 Leyline, 3 Needle, 4 Chalice in your side, what are we taking out against which hate? On the Play or on the Draw?

[Bane of the Living]

A few things.

Manaless-
I see no way to achieve this without Bazaar of Bagdad. Ill test the manaless list Bovinious suggests but I doubt it will add enough resiliency to forsake mana. We need mana to cast sideboard cards.

Pithing Needle and some form of Leyline hate are far to important to ignore.

At worse Phantasmagorian might be a solid sb choice against decks well supplied with counterspells.

Dakmor Salvage-
This is a one of in my sb for games I expect to go long. I like to have it to flashback Deep Analysis and to help pay for Ghostly Prisons with a giant Troll.

*Bonus
Last night I was playtesting with Madmankins from my team. He was the one that top 8'd at kaddi's last event. I was playing Angel Stax against him. I drop a turn one Ghostly Prison on him. He takes his turn drops an LED and saves it combing slowly with Imp. He therapies me for another Ghostly Prison and wiffs. My next draw is Ghostly Prison number two! I drop it and pass. He dredges a little bit with Deep Analysis and his two City of Brass and passes the turn. I take my next turn and rip a third Ghostly Prison off the top. BAM!!

He takes his next turn, dredges, flashes back another DA and passes. We pass the turn a couple times while he dredges and I do nothing thanks to multiple Therapies. He casts Breakthrough for X:1: and draws 4 cards. He discards all but one card, plays a second Lions Eye Diamond and then Dread Returns a 19/19 Gravetroll.

Then he Dread Returns a FKZ and it gives his troll +1/+1 to make it a 20/20 haste. He cracks both LED's to pay for the triple GP's and kills me.

I think this is the perfect example of why Breakthrough stays in the deck..

[Bovinious]

Obviously another big problem with Full Manaless is the sideboard. What I currently am thinking is:

4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Pithing Needle
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation

This means a I can deal with Crypt about as well as Almost Manaless, but not Leyline. I dont ever see Leyline, its only played in IGGy Pop and Truffle Shuffle, but of course its still bad to auto-scoop to it.

I'm thinking that Full Manaless may not be worth it because if I'm going to be SBing in the lands vs. hate, I can just have them MD and Breakthrough also, which is a shame because I actually was liking the way Full Manaless was playing a lot.

Another possible idea is Chalice of the Void and Unmask SB for Full Manaless, with a SB looking something like this:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Unmask
4 Dryad Arbor
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation

Remember you would have Serum Powders to help you find whatever you wanna find, but I'm still not sure a workable SB can be constructed here, anyone got any ideas?

[Bane of the Living]

Obviously another big problem with Full Manaless is the sideboard. What I currently am thinking is:

4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Pithing Needle
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation

This means a I can deal with Crypt about as well as Almost Manaless, but not Leyline. I dont ever see Leyline, its only played in IGGy Pop and Truffle Shuffle, but of course its still bad to auto-scoop to it.

I'm thinking that Full Manaless may not be worth it because if I'm going to be SBing in the lands vs. hate, I can just have them MD and Breakthrough also, which is a shame because I actually was liking the way Full Manaless was playing a lot.

Another possible idea is Chalice of the Void and Unmask SB for Full Manaless, with a SB looking something like this:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Unmask
4 Dryad Arbor
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation

Remember you would have Serum Powders to help you find whatever you wanna find, but I'm still not sure a workable SB can be constructed here, anyone got any ideas?

I really didnt like unmask in the deck previously but Full Manaless has alot more extra shit to pitch such as Phantasmagorian and Street Wraiths. The thing is Unmask and Chalice will both only stop Crypt on the play.

This brings up the question, how bad is Crypt for you? I find it relatively easy to fight through the first one. Now that Phantasmo is in the deck you should have an even easier time with it.

Leyline would be perfect in the Manaless build, I was shocked to see you drop it. Are you having no problems with Goblins?

Finally, how fast can the manaless version operate? Your really relying on LED to carry you through for powerfull dredges. Otherwise Coliseum and Deep Anal or dead.

[Syco_Tr0pic]

I think (actually I'm pretty sure) going Almost Manaless was an improvement (and a big one) upon the Manaless list on the first page. It gives us resiliency, its what makes this deck not straight "draw, hope for the best and mulligan like a champ" combo. It gives us bombs like Breakthrough and suporters like Putrid Imp, a chance against Leyline or Ghostly Prison and a decent sideboard.
We don't loose the insane plays either. In fact, Breakthrough has won me more games in the first couple of turns than its fair, the card is just that busted in this deck, I dont think we should loose it.
This deck here is not like the Vintage one, we don't have a zero-mana-uncounterable-does-it-all-by-itself-wonder-dredge-enabler. We need LED, or mana to cast good dredge enablers. Our discard phase is not enough for us to catch up with the format: its ok against control or even ********, but we can't rely on that against Storm Combo or Goblins.
Being able to actually cast Cabal Therapy from your hand is also a major bonus against storm combo, and this is only possible in the Almost Manaless route. Also the Manaless route gives 'em the unimpeded first turn they love to get. First turns in modern Legacy are too valuable to be given up.
I realy think going back to the Manaless build is a downgrade to the deck. It adds virtually nothing (c'mon... Phantasmagorian over Breakthrough?) and looses a lot. I can't imagine how being over reliant on LED (the only way to activate Cephalid Coliseum or flash Deep Analysis back) again is a good plan.


@ Bovinious:
Why Dryad Arbors in a board that doesn't contain Reverent Silence? The whole purpose of the Arbors is serving like a forest for Reverent Silence, then comboing out. If you're going to pay for your Leyline hate, IMHO you'd be better off using regular mana, like Tropical Island. Sure the Arbor speeds up Dread Return, but then again, you should be using Reverent Silence over, say, Ray of Revelation (wich doesn't make sense either, cause it leaves you unprotected against Leyline just the same, and you can handle only one Ghostly Prison, god forbid they draw two of 'em) an other stuff like Unmask, that is almost detrimental to the deck's plan of waiting for the discard phase if a LED doesn't come by. Not to say that Unmask's biggest chance to shine is on the play against Crypt or Storm Combo, and being on the play is a bit awkward for Manaless Ichorid.
Please, man, don't take this as a flame. I greatly respect your developments, but I'm failing to see where this one is taking us.

[Bane of the Living]

QFT. Thats pretty much what I was trying to get across here.

I just cant see us crossing over from Almost Manaless Ichorid to Full Manaless Ichorid without Bazaar.

AM
FM

Thats awesome.

Bovinious I do like your suggestion of Phantasmagorian and Im running it through the gauntlet as a sideboard option.

[Adan]

Ok, fuck, I was wrong with that Bridge-Trigger-Thingy. My fault.

But by the way, is there a current up-to-date build with a "5color Manabase" (4 mines, 4 Cities)? I'd like to see it because it allows better sideboard options.

[outsideangel]

I think (actually I'm pretty sure) going Almost Manaless was an improvement (and a big one) upon the Manaless list on the first page. It gives us resiliency, its what makes this deck not straight "draw, hope for the best and mulligan like a champ" combo. It gives us bombs like Breakthrough and suporters like Putrid Imp, a chance against Leyline or Ghostly Prison and a decent sideboard.
We don't loose the insane plays either. In fact, Breakthrough has won me more games in the first couple of turns than its fair, the card is just that busted in this deck, I dont think we should loose it.
This deck here is not like the Vintage one, we don't have a zero-mana-uncounterable-does-it-all-by-itself-wonder-dredge-enabler. We need LED, or mana to cast good dredge enablers. Our discard phase is not enough for us to catch up with the format: its ok against control or even ********, but we can't rely on that against Storm Combo or Goblins.
Being able to actually cast Cabal Therapy from your hand is also a major bonus against storm combo, and this is only possible in the Almost Manaless route. Also the Manaless route gives 'em the unimpeded first turn they love to get. First turns in modern Legacy are too valuable to be given up.
I realy think going back to the Manaless build is a downgrade to the deck. It adds virtually nothing (c'mon... Phantasmagorian over Breakthrough?) and looses a lot. I can't imagine how being over reliant on LED (the only way to activate Cephalid Coliseum or flash Deep Analysis back) again is a good plan.


The only time I could see the Manaless version being better is in an almost entirely control-oriented metagame. If all you expect to play against all day is Thresh and Landstill, then go Manaless, because that's how you'd probably end up playing the deck anyway to limit the interactivity of their counters. (although, that said, you do lose the ability to, after a Cabal Therapy or two, resolve a turn 4-5 bomb like Breakthrough that just wins you the game then and there, though something like Phantasmagorian could help to make up for it by enabling discard)

Other than that one possible, and very narrow, exception, I think this assessment is spot on.

But, Manaless Ichorid still does deserve testing, I think. However, I'd go all-out and make it true manaless, dropping most, if not all, of the copies of Coliseum and Deep Analysis, as you will almost never be able to active these guys. That space could be used for more dredgers (although the remaining options are admittedly sub-par things like Shambling Shell) probably four copies of Leyline, and possibly the fourth returns and another Sage.

[Bovinious]

Yo guys, I'm pretty sure that you're right that Full Manaless isnt going to be better than Almost Manaless without Bazaar, when FM doesnt get and resolve LED it basically has to go to EOT discard, which makes it slower than AM, even though more of FM's cards are relevent in the yard (Phantasmagorian, Nether Shadow). AM can goto EOT discard a turn later than FM, but also has more options than FM making EOT a backup plan or a tool against counters, so its probably the correct choice, also because lands make creating a sideboard MUCH easier. So I guess what I'm saying is I dont think Full Manaless is bad, but its probably worse than Almost Manaless at this time. I think I'm going to return to my AM list of:

// Lands
4 [7E] City of Brass
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll

// Spells
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 2 [VI] Emerald Charm


I still want to possibly try out Phantasmagorian or Nether Shadow somewhere, those 2 cards seemed to shine the most in the FM version, either the discard outlet from the grave or the extra creature really helped sometimes.

[Bane of the Living]

But, Manaless Ichorid still does deserve testing, I think. However, I'd go all-out and make it true manaless, dropping most, if not all, of the copies of Coliseum and Deep Analysis, as you will almost never be able to active these guys. That space could be used for more dredgers (although the remaining options are admittedly sub-par things like Shambling Shell) probably four copies of Leyline, and possibly the fourth returns and another Sage.

So the FM list would only be able to dredge 6 cards into the bin a turn? Maybe 12 if you have a Street Wraith. This isnt standard, thats awfull. I see no compelling reason to stop playing cards that say "draw x cards"

@Bovinious

Your current maindeck is the same as mine. Im finding all the numbers perfect aside from experimenting with...

+1 Deep Analysis
-1 Golgari Thug

-1 Gemstone Mine
+1 Dakmor Salvage

These are the very small kinks Ive been working on. I like your current sb, the only changes between ours is..

+4 Leyline
-2 Ray
-2 Emerald Charm

Im just not seeing Leyline anywhere at all. Until I do I think its safe to keep the Leylines around for Cephalid Breakfast, Goblins, Affinity, Iggy, Gamekeeper type decks.

[outsideangel]

So the FM list would only be able to dredge 6 cards into the bin a turn? Maybe 12 if you have a Street Wraith. This isnt standard, thats awfull. I see no compelling reason to stop playing cards that say "draw x cards"


Well, when you can't cast them... but that's exactly why the AM version is superior. It can actually use Coliseum and DA, and gets Breakthrough and Careful Study.

[Illissius]

I was tinkering with a full manaless list before this thread even started. It was pretty bad, and I think almost manaless is a big improvement, but if you want more draw without spending mana, use Baubles.

[BreathWeapon]

I still want to possibly try out Phantasmagorian or Nether Shadow somewhere, those 2 cards seemed to shine the most in the FM version, either the discard outlet from the grave or the extra creature really helped sometimes.

The problem with Nether Shadow is that it can't co-exist with Putrid Imp, so the deck has to replace Putrid Imp with Careful Study and cut lands for Nether Shadow. It's an interesting build, but it can't play around Crypt as well with out Putrid Imp, and it weakens Cabal Therapy, Deep Analysis, Cephalid Coliseum and the SB for something that isn't exactly needed. You're more geared to "draw/discard/dredge" than the Putrid Imp version, which is often a plus.

[Bovinious]

@ Bane: What is the Dahkmor Salvage in there for? Other than being a (not too great) Dredger, all it does is help you flashback a Deep Anal a turn after you Dredge it, which seems kind of slow and not all that worthwhile. It doesnt even help activate Coliseum or cast SB cards (other than Needle), so I really dont see a need for it. Other than that I think the MD is pretty much good, I'm still actually not sure cutting a DA was right but I really like the 12 dredgers.

If your not seeing Leyline, I wouldnt cut Ray of Revelation I'd cut Chain if Vapor. Ray answers Plague, Moat, Ghostly Prison, and other randomness. I rarely if ever see Leyline either, but the thought of one card theoretically making it impossible for me to win even post board scares me, but I could see a SB of the following being good also.

4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Open

[Bane of the Living]

Ok Salvage came out of the board again.. I have 3 tinker slots in my sb that Ive been testing out. I think of them as one ofs that I could Dredge into eventually. Heres my current board with the same maindeck Ive been playing..

4 Leyline of the Void

This card is super important imo. It shores up goblins and nearly auto wins against Iggy, Loam, and Cephalid Breakfast. If any of you plan on going to the Epic Dual Land Draft you'd better be prepared for Cephalid Breakfast.

4 Pithing Needle

Fight off Tormods Crypts from anyone. Its also usefull as an anti Belcher tool, anti Mogg Fanatic, and anti Survival since they can grab Jixid Jailers. You dont want to fuck with that guy.

4 Chain of Vapor
This card ruins Cephalid Combo and bounces Leylines. It can also bounce Tormods Crypts if your that worried about them. It can bounce Worships and all kinds of silly cards such as those. I might change this to copies of Grudge and Revelation because I like the synergies that much. Yet that leaves no answer to Leyline. Fugly.

1 Ray of Revelation
This is for the shit like Plague and Confinement. Cheap lock downs for my deck.

2 Extra Slots
These are my secret till after the DLD in Oct.

Goblins
Against Goblins Ill usually expect Tormods Crypts. This is one matchup you need to add Leyline so expect to weaken your engine a bit. Heres my strategy..

+4 Pithing Needle
+4 Leyline of the Void

-1 Golgari Thug
Weaken the dredge engine just a bit.

-3 Dread Return, -1 Cephalid Sage, -1 Flame Kin Zealot
The combo isnt anywhere as important as keeping your Bridges. You'll lose them if you try to combo to a Mogg Fanatic or Gempalm.

-2 Cabal Therapy
This card is hard to utilize against Goblins. You usually dont want to sac your men and lower your defenses to strip cards out of their hand. Their sb hate is Tormods Crypt which they play turn one, and usually Pyrokinesis. Luckily Kinesis has nothing on you if you have Leyline out.

Threshold
This depends on the build. We always want our Crypt hate but then you may want to sb Leyline to slow their clock if they're running red. The red version can play Pyroclasms so we cant take Therapies out.

+4 Pithing Needle
-2 Dread Return, -1 Flame Kin Zealot, -1 Cephalid Sage

We dont need to win in one turn against Thresh. The attrition war and manaless/spelless route is enough to take them down.

For white thresh..
-1 Dread Return
+1 Ray of Revelation

You might want to consider this if you suspect Worship. Thresh is one of few decks that can survive to hit 4 mana. Otherwise..

-1 Dread Return, -2 Thug, -1 Breakthrough
+4 Leyline

Taking out a single Breakthrough isnt a big deal against a deck that runs Force, Daze, and possibly Counterbalance. In fact you might be brave enough to go -1 Thug, -2 Breakthrough.

Cabal Therapy is huge against them to force through all your spells and take out Tarmagoyf for stall.

Belcher
Against Belcher you just want Pithing Needle and god hands. You can race the goblins by making a better bigger army. Keep in the combo cards to race.

+4 Pithing Needle
-2 Golgari Thug, -2 Ichorid

-1 Putrid Imp
+1 Sekret Tek

Keep therapy and your combo, water down the engine a tiny bit. Feel free to keep the Ichorids and take out Imp instead. This is my preference. Ichorid is usually to slow to take the kill.

TES
Since I took Chalice out I have a single card to play against this deck..

-1 Golgari Thug
+1 Sekret Teks

This matchup got a tiny worse but luckly its not played much. I only expect Bryant and maybe one other to run it at their DLD.

Cephalid Breakfast
For this matchup we race but take out some combo for Leyline.

-1 Cephalid Sage, -1 Dread Return, -2 Golgari Thug, -1 Flame kin Zealot
+4 Leyline of the Void, +1 Sekret Tek


Does anyone need help with other matchups? I figure that covers everything. Just water down those elements against appropriate situations.

[Redlotus27]

As I am planning to take Ichorid to Gen Con, I found the SB strategy invaluable. I've been having some minor success using chalice=0 to proactively stop crypts on the play in game 2, they also are a wrecking ball for belcher when they are unable to use thier LED's and Petals. I think that I could do better.

My other advice would be to never go under 10 dredgers, and the most sided out cards are therapies and the various 1 ofs (wonder, sage, fkz). I try really hard to leave the dread returns in, as many non white decks (read: no StP) can't deal with the 15/15 GGT in time.

Now. my manabase is as follows:

4 Underground Sea
4 City of Brass
4 Coliseum
1 Salvage

SB is currently:

4 Leyline
4 Chalice
4 Chain
3 Needle

Should I drop the chalices for Emerald Charms? Add Tropicals for Reverant silence?

Help me make my last minute fine tuning changes!

[Bovinious]

@ Bane:

I have some guesses for your secret SB tech, one of them is Ancestor's Chosen and the other True Believer mirite? Just some guesses from when u SB them in.

Other than the fact I dont run Leyline, all your explanations seem right on for the SB you run.

@ RedLotus:

First off, I'd run a full rainbow land mana base of 4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Mine, 4 Coliseum, which would allow you to cast green cards in your SB. Your options for that would be Emerald Charm, Ancient Grudge, and Ray of Revelation.

I would cut Chalice from your SB, it really only answers Crypt on the play, which you wont be on if you win game 1. Needle and Ancient Grudge are better answers for Crypt. The rest of your SB would depend on how much if ever you see Leyline, and personal preferences.

[BeeblesofLife]

Ancestors chosen is FREAKIN GREAT!!!
I run it as a two of in my SB.
It helps out against decks that are fast and deal damage quickly. It really does buy you a few turns.
Question:
What are the curent build/builds looking like. In my build I only use the 4 collesiums and thats it. Everything else is pretty much standard.

[Silthyn]

Ancestors chosen is FREAKIN GREAT!!!
I run it as a two of in my SB.
It helps out against decks that are fast and deal damage quickly. It really does buy you a few turns.
Question:
What are the curent build/builds looking like. In my build I only use the 4 collesiums and thats it. Everything else is pretty much standard.

//Land
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum

//Creatures
4x Putrid Imp
4x Narcomoeba
4x Ichorid
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
1x Cephalid Sage

//Other
4x Breakthrough
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Deep Analysis
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Bridge from Below
3x Dread Return

//Sideboard
4x Pithing Needle
4x Chain of Vapor
3x Ancient Grudge
2x Rav of Revelation
2x Emerald Charm

That's my current build. I think it's pretty standard, but some people make minor tweaks, such as one less Deep Analysis for one Golgari Thug etc.

[Redlotus27]

This is 99% certain what I am bringing to GenCon:


4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Dakmor Salvage
(13 Lands)
4 Golgari Grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Flame Kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage
(24)
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Life from the Loam
(23)

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Emerald Charm
2 Ray of Revelation

Loam has replaced one of the Thugs. I have been finding that I can get those 2 mana for DA and such, but in a long game, recurring lost gemstone mines/spent coliseums has been nice, but I am wondering if that is overkill or the dreaded win more?

Ancestors chosen seems to me like a card that helps you not to lose rather than to win?

[Silthyn]

I have this friend who's going to play an annoying U/W/b Fish deck with Jötun Grunts maindecked. They're obviously not enough to beat Ichorid alone most times, but the problem is his sideboard. The cards that I could have problems with:

4x Propaganda/Ghostly Prison
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Powder Keg

My sideboard:
4x Free Slots (I wont be able to find Pithing Needles)
4x Chain of Vapor (Hopefully I can get these)
3x Ancient Grudge
2x Ray of Revelation
2x Emerald Charm

How should I sideboard? I obviously want at least 4x Chain of Vapor, 2x Ray of Revelation and maybe 1 Ancient Grudge. I was thinking something like:
-4x Cabal Therapy
-2x Putrid Imp
-1x Dread Return

[Bovinious]

To everyone (myself included) who runs some amount of Emerald Charm SB, do you guys think Wax//Wane would be better? I think the +2/+2 aspect could come in handy more often than making a creature lose flying or untapping a permanent, plus Wax//Wane can kill Dragon Breath, which makes Breakfast a sad panda.

[KillemallCFH]

To everyone (myself included) who runs some amount of Emerald Charm SB, do you guys think Wax//Wane would be better? I think the +2/+2 aspect could come in handy more often than making a creature lose flying or untapping a permanent, plus Wax//Wane can kill Dragon Breath, which makes Breakfast a sad panda.If you're running the 5c mana base and can support white, I would definitely run Wax//Wane over Emerald Charm. I was actually going to suggest Demystify over Emerald Charm as a way to deal with auras AND non-auras, but I had forgotten about Wax//Wane, which is clearly superior.

[Bane of the Living]

Can anyone tell me what decks actually run Leyline of the Void??

I can think of two. Truffle Shuffle and Iggy Pop. Thats between the maindecks or sideboards. Granted you might run into nonsense on MWS because people can play a sideboard as big as they want. I dont base any of my playtesting off MWS.

I personally run 4 answers to the card. 4 Chain of Vapor. This takes care of a few pesky things and I find it efficient in battling Tormods Crypt as well. You need to combine it with Cabal Therapy or winning the game that turn but still.

If your worried about anything besides Leyline Id play Ray of Revelation. Its stupid to play anything else. You have the shot at playing Ray twice and it has easy to recognize synergies with dredge.

Im glad to see everyones maindeck pretty much mirrors mine. The only things that seem interchangable are 3-4 slots to mess with Deep Analysis, Thug, Salvage, or maybe Wonder (if not playing :w::r::g: cards).

@Redlotus
I personally would keep Chalice over Emerald Charms. You'll see more combo than you will Leyline no doubt.

@Silthyn
Go with 4 Chain of Vapor and 2 Ray. You need to deal with Leyline instead of Crypt in this senerio so your lack of needles wont be an issue at least.

Against Fish and Thresh I always sb out my combo cards. Their clocks arent fast enough to kill you aside from a lucky goyf. Dread Return on a giant Troll is often an error since they play Swords to Plowshares.

Never ever sb out Cabal Therapy against anything but Goblins

The card is simply broken in the deck and often gets played 2-10 times a game. The card advantage it can create is often what wins you games against blue based decks and will force through your LED's and Chain of Vapors.

Think of how critical this game would be..

You: Troll, Bridge, Cabal Therapy, City, Coliseum, PImp, Chain of Vapor.
Opponent: Leyline, Daze, Force, Brainstorm, Confidant, Sea, Delta.

Now reconsider that senario without the Therapy. GG?

@Bovinious
No those arent the teks we were looking for, thanks for playing.

Ancestor's Chosen isnt a bad find tho, would this card actually make a difference against combo?

They are both creatures for Dread Returns with two different purposes.

[xsockmonkeyx]

If you're running the 5c mana base and can support white, I would definitely run Wax//Wane over Emerald Charm. I was actually going to suggest Demystify over Emerald Charm as a way to deal with auras AND non-auras, but I had forgotten about Wax//Wane, which is clearly superior.

Erase is better than Demystify, just saying.

I liek the Wax//Wane suggestion with the gold manabase. Good find.

[Pinder]

Ancestor's Chosen isnt a bad find tho, would this card actually make a difference against combo?


I can tell you that when I played Ichorid pre-Narco-nonsense, Ancestor's Chosen was a total house. If you Dread Return it, even early on, it throw's combo's math off a bunch. If you manage to make it to the mid to late game, reanimating a Chosen for 30-40 life essentially makes Tendris combo unable to kill you. It also works nicely as a life total reset against fast aggro (of course, with speed of the newer builds of Ichorid I'm not really sure that this is at all a problem).

Plus he's a 4/4 first striker, which is never all bad, especially when he happens to gain you a metric fuckton of life.

[Bovinious]

@ Bane:
I saw that the cards were SBed in only when Dread Return wasnt SBed out so that made me think they were creatures, I'm still guessing theyre creatures actually I just dont know which ones.

@ All:

Ancestor's Chosen seems good which is why I brought it up, but is it actually better than reanimating Cephalid Sage and winning the game from there? I guess it buys you a few turns versus goblins/EtW, stop Tendrils, and can put you out of reach of Breakfast's Sutured Ghoul, but again I'm not sure its better than just winning via Sage/FKZ. Gaining 30-40 life and getting a 4/4 is never bad though, so he may be worth a shot.

Wax//Wane is in my SB over Emerald Charms now by the way, the ability to act as a Shock makes it better imo.

[smoky squirrel]

Ah, but the secret Teks must be Blazing Archon and Glowrider. If they are not, they seem really good versus the respective decks. I use them.

[BreathWeapon]

Ah, but the secret Teks must be Blazing Archon and Glowrider. If they are not, they seem really good versus the respective decks. I use them.

Use Grand Arbiter Augustin instead, if the opponent is using Rough/Tumble he can't kill him and if he is using Earthquake it costs 5 to do it.

[Bane of the Living]

Since the Epic DLD is over a month away Ill let the beans spill after I play with the deck tomorrow at Hadleys Berserk tournament. Wish me luck. Ill write a report even if I suck.

[Soto]

Good Luck even if you suck ^^

[Silthyn]

Mehehe, tournament today!
Any last tips on supertecks before I go? :D

[BeeblesofLife]

Hey guys!
Just got back from a tournament where I went 4-0 and took first.
To start off here is my decklist.

4 Gemstonem mine
4 City of brass
4 Cephalid collessium

4 Ichorid
4 Golgari grave troll
4 Stinkweed imp
4 Narcomeoba
4 Putrid imp
2 Golgari thug
1 Flame-kin zealot
1 Cephalid sage

4 Brakethrough
4 Lion's eye diamond
4 bridge from below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Deep analasys
3 Dread return
1 Life from the loam

SB:
1 Glowrider
4 Demistify
4 Simplify
2 Anscestors chosen
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Plague sliver

Round one: Red thresh
Game one I get hosed by bad luck and he wins with goyf easily.
Game two By turn three I empty out his hand with Therapy's and dragde narco-dudes for ALOT of toeksn and swing.
Game three This game goes on for a long time, he played a really big goyf and I have 4 bridhe from below in the graveyard. He swings to kill me and I block with a token, He then burns his goyf to death to get rid of my bridges.
I stole the game with ichorids and won.

Round Two: U/W control
Game one I get shit and concede
Games two and three werent even close I go off on turns two and for and with with tons of dudes and my FAVORITE FOIL ZEALOT!

Round Three: B/G Rockish thing
I win both games on turn three or 4 and I hit him for 40 and 75 points of damage for the win.

Round Four:Landish thing
I dont really remember this one, But Chalice @ 0 beats crypt.


The tourni report isnt that great but the key stuff.
Ancestors chosen won me alot of games. Against red thresh he put me at three only for me to gain 26 life.
Therapy should be a 4of in the tight MU's just to slow your opponent down. I remember stealing two Jittes and two rancors to buy some much needed time.
There were a few times where I returned Cechpalid sage twice in the same turn to win.

Most importantly what do you guys think of my list?
Ya like it?
Critisize and ask me questions!
-Beebles

[Jak]

You forgot 3 Dread Return in your list.

[Bane of the Living]

The tourni report isnt that great but the key stuff.
Ancestors chosen won me alot of games. Against red thresh he put me at three only for me to gain 26 life.
Therapy should be a 4of in the tight MU's just to slow your opponent down. I remember stealing two Jittes and two rancors to buy some much needed time.
There were a few times where I returned Cechpalid sage twice in the same turn to win.

Most importantly what do you guys think of my list?
Ya like it?
Critisize and ask me questions!
-Beebles

Whats with your sb? I dont see 8 "Destroy Target Enchantment" as needed at all. Did you face any Leylines throughout the day? From Rock even?

Why did you feel like you needed Ancestors Chosen against Threshold. This is one of the easier matchups. What did you take out?

How reliably can you cast the Life from the Loam. Does it do you any good or is it used mostly as another dredger?

Landstill is a total bye. The only card to remotely care about is Engineered Explosives if they run it.

Congrats on your win. I hope to maul with the zombies today as well.

[BeeblesofLife]

@Bane
The Reason I sided in ancestors chosen is because he got a really big goyf in play early on in two out of three games and he was continualy Pyroclasming my tokens away so it was a little difficult to get things going.
But AC gave me a win by gaining me 26 life and was enough to win.

Life from the loam is nice because of its low dredge in late game when I was looking for a FKZ when dredging bigger critters was a little dangerous. I have mixed feelings on the card, But I may accualy cast 1 out of 20 games and when I do LFTL helps out ALOT.

My SB was set up with Leyline hate. The decks in my Metta over here that run Leyline are really fast so I really do need an answer first turn.

[No_One411]

Hmm...I have mixed feelings about Ancestor's Chosen. I find that when I'm going to dread return it, I usually would want to return a Cephalid Sage or a Flame Kin Zealot and just kill them then. Also, Lion's Eye diamond is really really broken. I find it allows turn one/turn two wins consistently with Deep Analysis and Breakthrough. so my usual gameplan is to mulligan aggressively into Lions eye diamond.

I'm really curious, how useful are the playset of Ichorids? I don't really find that I need them that often. True, they do give you a extra win condition, but competitive decks will find a way to deal with ichorids. I currently only run two and don't really like them that much.

[Bovinious]

So as you all know I'm sure, an Ichorid deck made top8 at GenCon, the list was a little unorthodox though:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Underground Sea
1 Dakmor Salvage
7 lands

3 Putrid Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Cephalid Sage
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
25 creatures

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Careful Study
4 Deep Analysis
4 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
3 Lotus Petal
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
28 other spells


Sideboard

1 Unmask
4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Tropical Island
1 Wonder
3 Reverent Silence
1 Chalice of the Void
15 sideboard cards

I'm still trying to figure out why Lotus Petals are there instead of lands. I think the duals over rainbow lands is a mistake as well, altho its clearly that way because of Wonder/Reverent Silence (with 3 Island, 1 Forest...WTF).

I guess you cant argue with results though, I think its a good thing that this archtype placed well, maybe Ichorid/Breakfast are replacing the storm combo decks for now, but you cant accurately conclude that from Gen Con alone.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Anybody else notice the title change?
I'm really curious, how useful are the playset of Ichorids? I don't really find that I need them that often. True, they do give you a extra win condition, but competitive decks will find a way to deal with ichorids. I currently only run two and don't really like them that much.Ichorids are basically a second (or third) win condition. Without them, a single Mogg Fanatic can remove your Bridges and slow you down significantly.
I guess you cant argue with results thoughYes you can. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gpcol07/welcome#6)

[Bovinious]

I'm not sure how that link is relevent, but dont get me wrong, that list is HORRIBLE. 3 Reverent Silence with ONE Forest, and no way to find it is so bad...I dont even know where to start with the rest, but what I meant was its still the same archetype and did place well, I guess he never saw Leyline all day...

[Bane of the Living]

Thats what my teams list looked like almost two months ago. We've long decided lands > petal. Your not playing storm combo..

His manabase is awfull. I dont know how he got away with comboing on so few. Im thinking he must've lost to Thresh in the top eight because of Daze!

Anyways heres a small report for you from yesterday.

My tech was Platinum Angel. NO one saw that shit coming..

Round 1 forceofwill playing Ichorid
This is the most ridiculous mirror ever just so you all know. Im on the play and instead of dropping imp I therapy him naming LED. He reveals a hand of Breakthrough, land, DA, dredge guy x2 and other nonsense. He top decks the LED on his turn and kills me turn one. What a miser.

Game two I bring in Leylines, 1 angel, 2 Ray, and 2 CoV. I take out Therapies, two Ichorids and I water down a bit. I get leyline in my opener. He mulls to 6 for his. I open with leyline land. I rip CoV off the top of my deck and bounce his leyline eot. He's mana screwed and quickly dies. He totally forgot to copy the CoV to take out my Leyline. Sucker!

Game three I dont remember much aside from having Ray in my opener for his opening Leyline. He still takes it in a very close game after Im ridiculously close to Dread Returning the Angel. I had four mana in play and two dread returns in hand. The only targets were Ichorids, meobas, and imps... I had the angel in hand but fucked up by not D returning a Putrid and discarding her.... I blow led instead and dont get to three guys...

0-1

Round two- insertnamehere playing The Cure

He's on the play and opens with ESG or Petal into Kavu Predator. I get an amazing hand and dredge over half my deck. In the process I dont hit a single meoba but 4 bridges! I pass the turn ready for the kill next turn and he plays Invigorate x2 + Berserk. WTF?

Game two I kill him completely dead like I should.

Game three I open with CoV and get ready to nuke him when he over extends. He just drops goyfs and beats me down slowly he also had a Null Rod out and the turn after he plays it I top deck an LED followed by another. Instead of bouncing the Rod I dont cause im a tool and bounce a lethal berserked goyf (really scary!) I get a dread return in but make more playmistakes by choosing a stinkweed imp to kill the goyf he replayed rather than a big troll..

My next four rounds I steamroll but Ill tell you about them tomorrow cause I gotta get shit done at work!

Angel won me at least 3 games I had no business winning.

[smoky squirrel]

Ah yes, the Platinum Angel. I thought about her too, but she is an artifact, and both Belcher and TES run artifact hate. Well, my versions do. But still, it is a very nice card to have, although I prefer the Archon and Arbiter.

[Bryant Cook]

Why not just animate Sundering Titan and win the game? Platz is a stall tactic, almost a win-more than a bomb.