[Discussion] Combo Summer- Coming Soon? [Archive]

Bryant Cook

06-12-2007, 09:18 PM

History
When the format first had a separate list from Vintage everyone feared the dreaded "Combo Winter of 2004" that never came. Deck lists were untuned and just not strong enough to compete in the metagame; many of which ran four Diminishing Returns, Helm of Awakening, and Goblin Charbelcher which were terrible in the metagame. This lead combo to sit on the backburners of the format with its prized deck Nausea created by Evil Roopey in the open forums. Nausea was an alright combo deck for its time but was never broken or strong enough to break through the barriers of tier two.
About a year later a deck that was based on Ill-Gotten Gains came out called "Iggy Pop" created by Michael Bomholt (Bomholmm), this deck with the addition of the newly printed Infernal tutor was strong enough to take down those barriers. "Iggy Pop" did very well at large events such as GP Philly and Worlds. "Iggy Pop" rained champion of Tendrils based combo for a long while, there was other combo around but wasn't very tuned. About six to eight months later the sets Coldsnap and Timespiral were printed.
Coldsnap and Timespiral gave combo cards necessary to handle control and give combo the edge it had been waiting for all along. The card Rite of Flame was printed it was the second best 'Ritual' effect in the game since Dark Ritual. This card allowed combo to "combo off" more reliably and quickly in the opening turns of the game. The next card to help combo dramatically is a card called Empty the Warrens, this card is was put combo over the edge. Combo could now run multiple win conditions that killed in a timely manner, dodge hate cards like Meddling Mage, and kill with opposite cards to avoid hate for the other win condition.
A deck called "The EPIC Storm" created by Bryant Cook (Wastedlife) would soon break the surface using cards from these new sets. "The EPIC Storm" and "Iggy Pop" would soon start competing to be "the combo deck" of the format. Soon after this "The EPIC Storm" took first place at The Mana Leak Open in Stratford Connecticut piloted by its creator. "The EPIC Storm" would soon break another barrier of being the first ritual based combo deck to break the LMF in over two years.
With the release of the next set Planar Chaos combo gained another powerful tool in the card Simian Spirit Guide, all combo decks alike could abuse it but very few did. With Simian Spirit Guides addition to combo, Belcher lists flourished out of nowhere and a team from Canada would make a list called "CRET Belcher". This list was piloted to a second place finish at Kadilak's Dual Land Draft Three in Baldwinsville New York by Brian Diefendorf (Ewokslayer).
Then Flash Happened.

The Decks
Iggy Pop
The EPIC Storm (TES)
CRET Belcher
Spanish Inquisition (SI)

Combo Summer

Many people believe that these combo decks will dominate the metagame in the summer of 2007, much like the hype of "Combo Winter in 2004". But is this hype? Combo has been performing the best it has ever been in the format currently, for the first time we have a format that somewhat resembles a rock, paper, scissors format. Is combo summer healthy? Many believe that combo being this powerful is bad for the format and will make players withdraw from Legacy. I believe this is the healthiest Legacy has ever been. I said it, "Combo is healthy for the format." With combo in the format, it brings the best deck in the format (Goblins) down to reality and shoves it on its ass. While combo is for the first time at its peak, it's not overly powerful. The "Aggrocontrol" deck of the format still goes near 50/50 with each and every one of these combo decks.

The Big Question
Will "Combo Summer of 2007" happen? Combo now has all the right tools to be successful for the first time in the format. Many people believe that combo is unhealthy for the format and should have certain pieces such as Empty the Warrens or Lion's Eye Diamond banned. While I disagree to this due to the fact that it allows the format to evolve and make changes much like a healthy format should, many other people believe the opposite. The format has dealt with many powerful things and has adapted to deal with them such as Goblin Lackey and Flash. It's not like either card mentioned is unstoppable or utterly broken to the point a large part of the metagame is unplayable. Lets face it, little Timmy's elf deck wasn't competitive before Empty the Warrens; why would it be now? Combo is still a small portion of the metagame, and will always remain a decent but small portion of it.

Thank you for reading, and please discuss.

Tacosnape

06-12-2007, 09:46 PM

History
Combo has been performing the best it has ever been in the format currently, for the first time we have a format that somewhat resembles a rock, paper, scissors format. Is combo summer healthy? Many believe that combo being this powerful is bad for the format and will make players withdraw from Legacy.

The problem with the rock, paper, scissors analogy is that Combo can still beat decks designed to hate on it, and a lot more effectively than Goblins ever could. Combo can go first and have 16 Goblins on the board, a lethal Belcher shot, or a 11 Tendrils of Agony on the stack before you can get a move, and there isn't a consistent way to stop any of this. Even really good hands can bully their way through Force of Will.

Even if you get a turn, what then? A lot of the storm decks, especially TES, tend to shrug off Duress and Cabal Therapy like they aren't even there. Cards like Hymn to Tourach and Meddling Mage have become too slow, which I think is very bad for the format. Decks are relying on narrow cards like Chalice of the Void simply because it can be played for 0 mana, and 0 mana disruption cards are quickly becoming the only way decks can counteract combo. Four of the biggest anti-combo cards in recent times have been Force of Will, Leyline of the Void, Engineered Explosives, and Chalice of the Void, and Tormod's Crypt isn't far behind. All of which can be played for 0 mana.

I believe that combo is too fast and will drive players out of this format very quickly. The possibility of dying before getting a turn fills a lot of players with a sense of futility and resentment towards the format. Everyone I know around in Birmingham would rather face Goblins than any combo deck because with Goblins, decks have a shot without dedicating 12-20 maindeck slots to fighting it.

Combo being as powerful as it is now is bad for the format.

Will "Combo Summer of 2007" happen? Combo now has all the right tools to be successful for the first time in the format. Many people believe that combo is unhealthy for the format and should have certain pieces such as Empty the Warrens or Lion's Eye Diamond banned. While I disagree to this due to the fact that it allows the format to evolve and make changes much like a healthy format should, many other people believe the opposite. The format has dealt with many powerful things and has adapted to deal with them such as Goblin Lackey and Flash. It's not like either card mentioned is unstoppable or utterly broken to the point a large part of the metagame is unplayable.

Flash was banned. Because it made the game unfun and very often people didn't even get a turn. It hit that "Nothing I could do about it" nerve that a lot of people get, correct or not.

Lackey is a 1/1. Lackey can be dealt with by countless cards. Lackey can also be completely ignored by most combo decks, as well as decks packing anti-aggro locks like Solitary Confinement, or decks packing board sweepers by Pyroclasm. Lackey doesn't win the game if he succeeds. Combo decks win the game if they succeed.

Comparing the two for any reason beyond them being the two cards that made the most impact on Legacy is absurd.

Lion's Eye Diamond has had the third heaviest impact of any card in Legacy. It's fueled Gamekeeper Salvagers, Iggy Pop, Epic Storm, and countless other decks including modern Dredge decks. But it's arguable that it's not the culprit, and I don't think it is. Like all the other accelerants, it can cause severe problems, but none of the accelerants on their own are the problem. The problem is when they all get piled together.

The culprits are Empty the Warrens and to a lesser degree, Burning Wish.

Empty the Warrens is the single strongest Storm card ever printed. It's also the single strongest kill condition legal in Legacy right now. Tendrils may kill you instantly, but it takes double black and needs a storm count of 9 to do it. Brain Freeze decks you, but needs multiple copies or a storm count of 15-17. Empty the Warrens can put you in a game state most decks can't recover from with a storm count of only 4-6, which is ridiculous. This means it can do it without any tutoring or drawing, off only the opening hand. Whereas Lackey can be dealt with by fast and good cards like Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, and so forth, a quick Empty the Warrens requires you have a 1-2 mana boardsweeper, and very few of those exist. Engineered Explosives, Punishment, Powder Keg, Sandstorm, and Rain of Blades are the big guns here, but none short of possibly EE has comparable strength to the Lackey answers.

Burning Wish is the strongest tutor in Legacy, and in large part it's Burning Wish's fault (And slightly less so for Infernal Tutor) that Lion's Eye Diamond gets such a bad rep. Burning Wish gives combo decks insane resiliency and consistency, though this is not as large of a problem as the sheer speed of the combo decks.

Combo Summer 2007 will probably happen to a minor degree, but it'll get worse in the Fall. Empty the Warrens will be the chief culprit with Burning Wish as its partner-in-crime, but it's ETW who will ultimately be the most responsible for the downfall of the metagame.

sammiel

06-12-2007, 11:06 PM

none of those decks shrug off duress like it wasn't there. Occasionally, they will topdeck right back into the card they needed to combo off, but often it can buy you a turn or two, which may be all you need to get more vital disruption online.

Although I did duress an iggy player turn 1 on the play once, and he did have a duress proof hand. That was gay, but there's nothing you can do about it.

As far as a combo summer, I wouldn't be at all surprised. Goblins will still always be a dominant deck, although it may have trouble with the combo matchups, if the format shifts heavily towards combo and anti-combo, goblins will be a solid choice to wreck the anti-combo decks.

Realistically, empty the warrens may be too powerful for the format, but it's way too early to tell.

blacklotus3636

06-12-2007, 11:08 PM

I feel like many people have a preoccupation with hating combo. People dont like combo because it means that aggro decks without disruption are pretty much useless but I didnt hear much crying when goblins pretty much forced out blue based control. I think it all comes down to people not wanting to change with thier environment. People get comfortable with a certain style of deck being playable and when that is disrupted they get upset. I think combo getting better is good for the metagame because as stated earlier it pushs goblins back to just being a good deck and it means that control can play. With combo getting better it also means that legacy is going to start looking more like vintage and will become more so as more sets arrive. I think its ok as long as it doesnt speed up the format too much and every so often it happens but I think having combo decks that can win consistently on turn 3 is not bad afterall combo wouldnt be any good if it couldnt at least outrace aggressive decks in the format.

Citrus-God

06-12-2007, 11:16 PM

Combo is becoming more consistent, and now has stronger tools to fight aggro-control, control, and even the combo mirror.

Bryant, that's a great piece. Now that I think about it, every player, whether they're playing aggro, tempo, stax, or any other combo deck, expect to hate on it. I cant think of very much to hate on combo when they have so much flexibility in the form of Burning Wish (or Living Wish if you're playing Golden Grahams). Being able to answer cards like Null Rod, while forcing them to answer so many must-counters is deadly, but in a deck with a faster goldfish is basically saying "Hi, I'm Combo. I'm Vial Goblins with a faster goldfish and a hot fallback girilfriend (Empty the Warrens, not really, but since it wins, it's hot).

Goblins was able to employ this strategy of answering certain cards while forcing them to be on the edge of the fence. Siding in Tranquil Domain while still playing crap like Matron to find Goblin King(s) and Ringleaders to slowly leverage itself until it can find Domain is quite deadly, considering the fact you have to answer the threats more often than the answers to your answers. In short, reflect that with decks like TES.

Amon Amarth

06-12-2007, 11:27 PM

I don't think Combo is too good at this point in time.

I agree with the statement that Combo is alot like Goblins- it makes people play good cards, and competitive decks.

Hell, most of the hate against Combo isn't that narrow or is good against other decks such as Stifle, Pyroclasm, Engineered Explosives, Chalice of the Void, Tormod's Crypt, Pithing Needle, etc. And the one card I don't want to see when I'm playing Combo is Stifle. God that card is so fucking nuts right now.

What I see happening with the increase of decks like TES and Belcher is the rise of Control decks that beat said decks and the decks that prey upon them, Threshold and its ilk.

I believe that the Legacy metagame is incredibly diverse and healthy. Great piece, btw.

thefreakaccident

06-13-2007, 01:58 AM

I actually prey for said winter, as I know we all know that combo is getting more and more consistant and faster... lets face it people, the turn shifted from 3-4 to a CONSISTANT 1-2 kill. TES and SI love to go first turn with a lethal storm count and make you cry... but if these decks weren't any good, would there be any fun at the table for either player (the pilot of said combo & his opponent).

no one likes to be playing the 'draw go game', whether it be the combo deck that just fizzled or the control deck that forced them to 'fizzle'.

Combo decks need to be good, so control players an have a challenge and aggro players don't have a prayer... that said, looks like I am going to be playing landstill for this combo meta comming up!

Tacosnape

06-13-2007, 02:55 AM

Combo decks need to be good, so control players an have a challenge and aggro players don't have a prayer... that said, looks like I am going to be playing landstill for this combo meta comming up!

This is absurd. You can't possibly make an argument for the health of the metagame by completely eliminating an archetype of deck. What you have basically stated is a wish that only two decks exist: Overpowered combo, and decks with overpowered combo in their sights. This was what we had when Flash was legal.

I am all for the health of combo. I think Combo was healthy and has been healthy from the inception of Legacy up until the printing of Empty the Warrens. I feel like Empty the Warrens is the only real culprit that is too strong for the format. It sets up too many situations, far moreso than any other card, where an opponent's game is all but over before his first turn, barring a few nonversatile cards targeted specifically to hate on it. With it gone, combo is still quite strong and versatile and capable of succeeding at large tournaments, as decks like Solidarity, Gamekeeper Salvagers, and Iggy Pop all proved many times on large scales.

In addition to being all for the health of combo, I am also for the health of aggro, control, and all balances between the three. I think Legacy up until Time Spiral was the healthiest a format has ever been. No true tier one deck existed, although goblins earned that reputation.

After a lot of analysis, I recant anything I ever said about banning LED. I think Lion's Eye Diamond is one of the thirteen most important cards for Legacy being a healthy format. (The others I intend to write an article for soon, if I can find a site that will publish it.)

Goaswerfraiejen

06-13-2007, 03:25 AM

no one likes to be playing the 'draw go game',

But people like to play the game in which only one player gets a turn? You can't really use the "fun" argument, since fun in Magic lies in the challenge posed by gameplay interaction. Sure, some fun lies in winning--but winning gets old fast for everyone involved when you win so fast that nobody has a chance.

With regards to combo, I largely agree with Tacosnape: I'm not too happy with the insane power that it can have, given (especially) EtW (actually, the most frustrating thing is Belcher, since you really have to guess when laying out the hate, due to the dual strategy--same goes for TES and some IggyPop builds, but to a lesser extent since those at least use Storm options to kill), but it's certainly nowhere near as bad as in the Flash days. I find playing against combo to be a chore, really, but that's just my own opinion. I like the fact that it currently has a strong presence in the generalized internet metagame (since it's one aspect of a healthy[ier] format), but I wouldn't want to see it come to dominate. I'd certainly like to see more non-blue (read: non-Stifle) solutions to storm combo, but that's a very tight rope to walk (print hate, and you force combo to adapt so that it becomes even more out of reach). All in all, I can definitely live with a TES/Belcher/etc. combo presence in Legacy.

jamest

06-13-2007, 03:45 AM

And the one card I don't want to see when I'm playing Combo is Stifle. God that card is so fucking nuts right now.
Seconded. Combo is not that hard to beat if you use the right cards. Hint: not graveyard hate and not discard.

IMO Combo is balanced. If anything, I think aggro control might be getting too strong. Preboard, combo may be 50/50 with aggro control, but postboard, aggro control sides in versatile cards like Stifle and Meddling Mage and gains the advantage. But does the fact that aggro control needs to sideboard combo hate imply that combo is too powerful? No, because aggro control decks are now capable of beating aggro decks without much sideboard help.

steffri666

06-13-2007, 04:37 AM

I think Combo is balanced, too. But it may have to do with me playing mostly AggroControl decks. I'd like to ask/ state 1 more thing. Over here where I live in southern Germany there is way less Combo around. I mean we get occationally combo decks but usually the people playing them don't know them really and so screw up a lot. We have lots of AggroControl of all kind though, its not like you can play the combo and rule. Maybe if you are an expert. I think a lot of the more casual players, that we have quite some don't like playing combo at all. I guess what I'm trying to say is: Do you think Combo is underrepresented in the whole meta? I think over here it is and I'd like to know if it is really played that much in the states.
All combo loses quite a bit of its strength if you dont play it often, even if its only to know your mulligans, so that keeps it in check here i guess.

kicks_422

06-13-2007, 07:17 AM

It's already happening in Vintage, with combo all over the place (well, much more than the usual, anyway). With combo decks becoming easier and easier to play (e.g. tap 2 islands, cast Flash, win) or mulliganing into Bazaar, more people are picking it up.

In Legacy, the combo decks have been going through major tuning for the past few months (right before Flash), and the pilots have been gaining a lot of experience with their decks that it's just a matter of time before "combo <insert season here>" just jumps into the picture.

Muradin

06-13-2007, 09:20 AM

I think that the printing of Empty the Warrens wasn't unhealthy for the format. It made combo much better but this must be a general evolution in every eternal format. With the printing of more and more new cards combo is simply the archetype taking most advantage of that. Furthermore the rise of combo is good for the formats reputation as it is more or less" aggro only" atm. So with the rise of combo goblins will become less dominating.

Nightmare

06-13-2007, 09:50 AM

Expanding on Muradin's point, Wizards has taken the stance that Blue is too good (in general). In making their corrections to this theory, they've printed pretty specific hosers to the traditional blue-based control deck (Aether Vial, for instance), and at the same time, not really done anything to slow the combo deck down. They've shifted the mana accel color to red, which really means nothing to Eternal Magic, and continued to print interesting combo pieces for the Johnny's in Standard to play with. The thing is, those interesting combos in Standard are BUSTED in Eternal. There really is no clear cut solution to this. If they make control strong in Standard, we either get some stuff for our control decks or combo gets control cards (Remand). If they make "fair" combo cards, we get crazy ones (Empty the Warrens). And of course, any aggro card sucks if it isn't Creature - Goblin (Char).

Watcher487

06-13-2007, 10:32 AM

And of course, any aggro card sucks if it isn't Creature - Goblin (Char).

Ye of little rememberence. What about Dark Confidant, Watchwolf, Lightning Helix, Boros Swiftblade, Umezawa's Jitte?!?!, Jotun Grunt, Serra Avenger. Aggro has had a decent benefit from Ravnica Block-on, anyway Mare, the format's aggro portion is not all about 'Creature - Goblin'.

Bryant Cook

06-13-2007, 10:39 AM

I am all for the health of combo. I think Combo was healthy and has been healthy from the inception of Legacy up until the printing of Empty the Warrens. I feel like Empty the Warrens is the only real culprit that is too strong for the format. It sets up too many situations, far moreso than any other card, where an opponent's game is all but over before his first turn, barring a few nonversatile cards targeted specifically to hate on it. With it gone, combo is still quite strong and versatile and capable of succeeding at large tournaments, as decks like Solidarity, Gamekeeper Salvagers, and Iggy Pop all proved many times on large scales.

The main problem I have with this is look at the three combo decks you listed, each of of them is balls slow and loses to a turn 2 Meddling Mage. Combo was very fragile before Empty the Warrens, Empty the Warrens gave combo the the tool it needed to be able to survive Meddling Mage. If a person continues to run Meddling Mage thinking thats all they need for combo they will lose. Combo isn't saying dedicate 15 card sideboards for us, it's simply saying don't be afraid to adapt and make change. Pyroclasm and Enginneered Explosives are both great answers that work against multiple other decks in the format such as Goblins, Threshold, Zoo decks and many others. You don't have to run blue to beat combo either, Hell, last saturday I lost to Ichorid playing TES. With combo on the rise people should make change, being terribbly afraid and dedicating too much is a problem but an Enginneered Explosives in the maindeck won't kill anyone. Its a card every color far and wide can run and its a cheap answer.

Nightmare

06-13-2007, 10:39 AM

Ye of little rememberence. What about Dark Confidant, Watchwolf, Lightning Helix, Boros Swiftblade, Umezawa's Jitte?!?!, Jotun Grunt, Serra Avenger. Aggro has had a decent benefit from Ravnica Block-on, anyway Mare, the format's aggro portion is not all about 'Creature - Goblin'.You're kidding yourself. Confidant has seen more success as a combo piece or control piece than in aggro. Watchwolf, Swiftblade and Helix are all fine in Zoo, but Zoo isn't remotely as good as Goblins. Jitte is a good card, I'll give you that, but it's on the high end of power level, for sure. Grunt and Avenger are both better in Aggro-control than aggro. We can debate the differences between aggro and aggro-control if you want, but pure aggro strategies that aren't Goblins (which isn't even a pure aggro strategy, but comes closest in tier 1) have little significance in Eternal Formats.

Watcher487

06-13-2007, 11:11 AM

You're kidding yourself. Confidant has seen more success as a combo piece or control piece than in aggro. Watchwolf, Swiftblade and Helix are all fine in Zoo, but Zoo isn't remotely as good as Goblins. Jitte is a good card, I'll give you that, but it's on the high end of power level, for sure. Grunt and Avenger are both better in Aggro-control than aggro. We can debate the differences between aggro and aggro-control if you want, but pure aggro strategies that aren't Goblins (which isn't even a pure aggro strategy, but comes closest in tier 1) have little significance in Eternal Formats.

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5379

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t92/Watcher487/Watcher487.jpg

The only 2 non-Goblin aggro decks placed... 1st and 2nd. Pure aggro is an archtype that is truly underrated in this format. Everyone thinks it's just Goblins and Thresh has too many big critters to stop Aggro. Well the wake up call is that, this is not true. Non-Goblin Aggro is good in this format, it's just that no one will play the decks since they haven't 'placed'.

Nightmare

06-13-2007, 11:26 AM

The only 2 non-Goblin aggro decks placed... 1st and 2nd. Pure aggro is an archtype that is truly underrated in this format. Everyone thinks it's just Goblins and Thresh has too many big critters to stop Aggro. Well the wake up call is that, this is not true. Non-Goblin Aggro is good in this format, it's just that no one will play the decks since they haven't 'placed'.Aside from the fact that you've shown a single event as your evidence, and I can quote every other event as mine, it's pretty well known your deck (since fundamentally, we're debating the relevancy of your deck, not the archetype) has game vs. Goblins. There were three Goblin decks in that same T8. Day 1 was won by a combo deck. Day 2 was 26 decks that preyed on Combo decks getting beat by decks that ignored their combo matchup. It was a good metagame call. That doesn't mean it's relevant in the overall format trend discussion.

Peter_Rotten

06-13-2007, 12:17 PM

Although I'm a huge fan of excellent opening posts to spark relevant discussion, I wish Bryant had mentioned Solidarity. Where does that fall into the picture of the possible combo-summer? I think that it at least deserved mentioning in the History of Combo. No?

Bryant Cook

06-13-2007, 12:20 PM

When talking with Anwar last night he mentioned it as well, I meant for it to be on "Ritual" based combo. Maybe I should've been more descriptive, although, with Solidarity losing numbers at the moment I don't know how much it would effect "Combo Summer".

Machinus

06-13-2007, 12:20 PM

The combo surge is long overdue. I have been expecting it to happen "very soon" for years now. If it does finally occur it will be a great driving force for the diversity of the format. Combo and Control together represent half of all deck archetypes but their tournament numbers are far below 50%. If/when deckbuilders take metagaming seriously and play fast combo decks, this is going to change, and there will be an indefinite period of new development where the power is shifted from the current definition decks.

Tacosnape

06-13-2007, 12:45 PM

The main problem I have with this is look at the three combo decks you listed, each of of them is balls slow and loses to a turn 2 Meddling Mage.

None of these decks loses to a turn 2 Meddling Mage. All are fully capable of removing the Mage from the board. GK Salvagers is also capable of knocking the Mage out of your hand. Solidarity is also capable of countering the Mage. Of this group, Solidarity has the hardest time dealing with mage. I don't fear Mage with GK Salvagers, and while I don't have a lot of experience playing Iggy Pop, I've lost to it after resolving a mage plenty of times. GK Salvagers and Iggy Pop are on occasion also capable of going off before the Mage hits.

I've won tournaments with two of them in fields chock full of Meddling Mages and combo hate, and I've played against the third in semifinals twice. None of the decks are invalid and all are capable of thriving.

Combo isn't saying dedicate 15 card sideboards for us, it's simply saying don't be afraid to adapt and make change. Pyroclasm and Enginneered Explosives are both great answers that work against multiple other decks in the format such as Goblins, Threshold, Zoo decks and many others.

They're an answer to Empty the Warrens only. They do absolutely nothing against any other combo deck or combo piece in the entire format. I've found myself facing 10 Goblins before my first turn with a Force of Will in my opening hand more often than I can count. And even if you run Engineered Explosives, Empty the Warrens is creating a situation where on the draw you can't keep an opening hand that doesn't have Engineered Explosives in it, ever.

Engineered Explosives is well on its way to becoming the next Leyline of the Void.

barron

06-13-2007, 01:07 PM

It may be because all I have played in legacy the last year has been either combo, or decks that maindeck chalice of the void, but I don't think combo is out of control. I think it is on the cusp, but not quite there. For example, if there weren't wastelands I think Crimson tide would be the best deck in the format, but it is (ironcally) goblins that is keeping that deck in check. Mage is a hassle to deal with for Tide, and E.truth is instant warrens kill. I do think it is frustrating for decks to lost out to a turn one combo, but in legacy that isn't all that consistent, yet. The only reservation I have (as a solidarity player) is playing against EPIC and staring down that first turn swarm (which seems to happen 900% of the time, yeah, 900%). COTV is a hoser in this format. I just picked up another playset just so I wouldn't have to keep moving mine from one deck to another. They rock against combo, and most aggro/controll decks

Bryant Cook

06-13-2007, 01:17 PM

None of these decks loses to a turn 2 Meddling Mage. All are fully capable of removing the Mage from the board. GK Salvagers is also capable of knocking the Mage out of your hand. Solidarity is also capable of countering the Mage. Of this group, Solidarity has the hardest time dealing with mage. I don't fear Mage with GK Salvagers, and while I don't have a lot of experience playing Iggy Pop, I've lost to it after resolving a mage plenty of times. GK Salvagers and Iggy Pop are on occasion also capable of going off before the Mage hits. You failed to address that each one of the combo decks is so slow that all hate for them comes online at turn 3, a full 2 turns slower than what we are currently at. Yes, each one of those decks lose to a Meddling Mage on turn two. Maybe not in the literal sense, however, casting Meddling Mage on turn two against combo is like casting Time Stretch. Meddling Mage buys aggrocontrol enough time to sculpt thier hands or find the answers that they need before the combo deck can recover. Yes, each of the decks you mentioned have answers but they either have to find thier answers or have to be a a disadvantage for using them. By this I mean that they either have to be down a life and a card or spend valuable resources digging finding one of thier few answers. I honestly don't know why we're discussing Gamekeeper Salvagers, it's more like The Rock with a combo finish than a combo deck. Every deck you mentioned can find its way out of a Meddling Mage but it puts them at a disadvantage, which is why they fell out of the upper tier because they didn't adapt. Much like how aggrocontrol will fall out of the upper tier if it doesn't evolve with the metagame.

I've won tournaments with two of them in fields chock full of Meddling Mages and combo hate, and I've played against the third in semifinals twice. None of the decks are invalid and all are capable of thriving. Do you mean like how aggro control is capable of thriving in a combo metagame? If aggro control evolves with the metagame it is more than capable of winning tournaments filled with combo.

They're an answer to Empty the Warrens only. They do absolutely nothing against any other combo deck or combo piece in the entire format. I've found myself facing 10 Goblins before my first turn with a Force of Will in my opening hand more often than I can count. And even if you run Engineered Explosives, Empty the Warrens is creating a situation where on the draw you can't keep an opening hand that doesn't have Engineered Explosives in it, ever.

Engineered Explosives is well on its way to becoming the next Leyline of the Void. Enginneered Explosives is much more than an answer for just Empty the Warrens, it's amazing against Goblins and many other decks with bad curves in the format. With the format becoming faster and faster casting costs will reduce to 0,1,2, and 3. Permanents of these casting costs are very killable by EE. Pyroclasm is narrower than EE, yes, but is still amazing Vs. the best deck in the format. Not knowing what to Force of Will can cause you to lose to 10 Goblins on turn 1, or they can push thier way through. If combo pushes thier way through play better or more fast answers. Is mulliganing a bad hand away too much to ask? You wouldn't keep a 5 land, Brainstorm, and Daze hand against Goblins why would you against combo?

Tacosnape

06-13-2007, 01:35 PM

Every deck you mentioned can find its way out of a Meddling Mage but it puts them at a disadvantage, which is why they fell out of the upper tier because they didn't adapt.

So you're saying that Meddling Mage shouldn't be a valid piece of disruption for combo? Ludicrous.

Not knowing what to Force of Will can cause you to lose to 10 Goblins on turn 1, or they can push thier way through.

Not knowing what to Force has nothing to do with it. I challenge you to beat this hand with a Force of Will:

Taiga, Elvish Spirit Guide, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Tinder Wall, Lotus Petal, Empty the Warrens.

There's a hundred variants of it I could easily list off. The simple reality is that you're facing 10 Goblins on turn one. 12 if you attempt to Force.

GG.

You could have a godlike anti-combo hand with UGW Threshold, say, Tropical Island, Flooded Strand, Force of Will, Stifle, Pithing Needle, Brainstorm, Meddling Mage. And if Belcher is going first, that hand loses unless your Brainstorm hits Engineered Explosives. What you're saying is that, much like how many decks were forced to mulligan for Leyline to beat Flash, we now should have to auto-mulligan for Engineered Explosives / Pyroclasm to beat Empty The Warrens?

Bryant Cook

06-13-2007, 01:50 PM

So you're saying that Meddling Mage shouldn't be a valid piece of disruption for combo? Ludicrous. What I'm saying is its a fine disruption piece, one of the better ones, but it shouldn't buy aggro control a Time Stretch for UW. Mage paired with other cards is good enough to stop combo but Meddling Mage alone shouldn't say "Iggy Pop can't win." Meddling Mage paired with Stifle is very hard for TES/CRET Belcher and many others to stop. Maybe instead of investing two mana in that Meddling Mage they should've waited to keep Stifle mana open. Almost every one of the combo decks mentioned gets raped by Stifle. TES is one of the very few to be able to deal with Stifle consistantly game one due to Xantid Swarm and Orim's Chant, Belcher can deal with Stifle postboard due to 5 REB/Blasts.

Not knowing what to Force has nothing to do with it. I challenge you to beat this hand with a Force of Will:

Taiga, Elvish Spirit Guide, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Tinder Wall, Lotus Petal, Empty the Warrens.

There's a hundred variants of it I could easily list off. The simple reality is that you're facing 10 Goblins on turn one. 12 if you attempt to Force.

GG. Congrats you created an invisible hand against Force of Will, but that whole hand loses to 3 cards and two of which are lands. Island, Fetchland, and EE. A mulligan to three in theory can turn an opponents whole 7 card hand into a mindtwist leaving them with a Tiaga. Both sides of the arguement are valid, I'm not argueing that hand wasn't broken.

You could have a godlike anti-combo hand with UGW Threshold, say, Tropical Island, Flooded Strand, Force of Will, Stifle, Pithing Needle, Brainstorm, Meddling Mage. And if Belcher is going first, that hand loses unless your Brainstorm hits Engineered Explosives. What you're saying is that, much like how many decks were forced to mulligan for Leyline to beat Flash, we now should have to auto-mulligan for Engineered Explosives / Pyroclasm to beat Empty The Warrens?
If your opponent gets the nuts I guess you lose but that is apart of the game. If you can't accept that your opponent is either lucky enough or out played you, you probably shouldn't be playing. People didn't complain when Solidarity stole the stack and made everything you did futile, people sucked it up and played faster decks with faster answers.

Tacosnape

06-13-2007, 02:13 PM

If your opponent gets the nuts I guess you lose but that is apart of the game. If you can't accept that your opponent is either lucky enough or out played you, you probably shouldn't be playing. People didn't complain when Solidarity stole the stack and made everything you did futile, people sucked it up and played faster decks with faster answers.

By this logic, we should never have banned Flash.

I can accept being outplayed. In fact, I love being outplayed, because I learn something. I can accept occasional ridiculous luck, too, because as you said, it's part of the game. And it happens to me as often as anyone else.

Yet at some point there has to be a line between what players should be forced to adapt to and what distorts the format and makes it unfun. Flash clearly crosses that line, Goblin Lackey doesn't. The line exists somewhere in between, as does Empty the Warrens, which makes it a highly arguable point as to which side of the line it sits on.

I personally find the line to be drawn here:

I believe I should be able to, on a fairly consistent basis, get one land down on the draw before losing or facing an nearly unrecoverable game state. By nearly unrecoverable, I mean you lose unless you have a specific card designed to stop this exact situation. I believe there are enough 1CC spells to make an acceptable defense against anything, but definitely not enough 0CC spells. On the draw, Empty the Warrens can put you in an unrecoverable game state before your first turn. Goblin Lackey takes until before your second turn, as he actually has to hit you.

I don't enjoy magic if I can't get at least one land out on a consistent basis, and I'm not the only one who feels this way. If I was, Flash wouldn't have gotten banned. Sure, you can aggressively mulligan for Engineered Explosives, but what about in a real tournament where you don't know what you're facing? Do you automatically throw every hand without an Explosives back if you lose the die roll for fear of facing Belcher? Of course not. You can't. But you can't rely on 1CC spells to save you. And I feel like when you can't rely on 1CC spells to save you, the format's too fast and not a whole lot of fun.

Therefore I think Empty the Warrens crosses the line.

Bryant Cook

06-13-2007, 02:35 PM

By this logic, we should never have banned Flash.

I can accept being outplayed. In fact, I love being outplayed, because I learn something. I can accept occasional ridiculous luck, too, because as you said, it's part of the game. And it happens to me as often as anyone else. Theres a difference between Flash and Empty the Warrens based decks, the difference being that Flash was a two card combo that you could effectively protect with the rest of your deck. Empty the Warrens is a card that needs your whole deck to be built around it in order for it to be good. When building your whole deck around a card it leaves very little room for answers such as Chain of Vapor/Force of Will. Flash also consistantly killed on turn two, where as Empty the Warrens based decks don't actually kill until turn three which is when Enginneered Plague comes online. Comboing out on turn 1 and killing on turn one are two different things and I think your perspective on this is a little blurred.

Yet at some point there has to be a line between what players should be forced to adapt to and what distorts the format and makes it unfun. Flash clearly crosses that line, Goblin Lackey doesn't. The line exists somewhere in between, as does Empty the Warrens, which makes it a highly arguable point as to which side of the line it sits on.

I personally find the line to be drawn here:

I believe I should be able to, on a fairly consistent basis, get one land down on the draw before losing or facing an nearly unrecoverable game state. By nearly unrecoverable, I mean you lose unless you have a specific card designed to stop this exact situation. I believe there are enough 1CC spells to make an acceptable defense against anything, but definitely not enough 0CC spells. On the draw, Empty the Warrens can put you in an unrecoverable game state before your first turn. Goblin Lackey takes until before your second turn, as he actually has to hit you. This "line" that you created allows a 1/1 to hit you on the second turn and theoretically drop a hand but doesn't allow 6-12 1/1's to hit you on the second turn. Empty the Warrens rarely has an opponent dead before they hit two land. You can stop Goblin Lackey with spot removal, yes? Why not change your spot removal spots to mass removal and deal with all the little green men? It seems like you are unwilling to change the way you play or atleast your perspective on the situation.

I don't enjoy magic if I can't get at least one land out on a consistent basis, and I'm not the only one who feels this way. If I was, Flash wouldn't have gotten banned. Sure, you can aggressively mulligan for Engineered Explosives, but what about in a real tournament where you don't know what you're facing? Do you automatically throw every hand without an Explosives back if you lose the die roll for fear of facing Belcher? Of course not. You can't. But you can't rely on 1CC spells to save you. And I feel like when you can't rely on 1CC spells to save you, the format's too fast and not a whole lot of fun. But you can have a land out on a consistent basis, hell, Empty the Warrens doesn't even kill until you have two lands out. If you're not playing a deck that can't disrupt an opponent in this metagame, you probably shouldn't be playing it. Your opponent doesn't even have to be playing combo, a Duress, Cabal Therapy, Hymn to Tourach, Stifle, Pyroclasm, Enginneered Explosives, Enginneered Plague, Wrath of God/Damnation (If they Warrens on turn two), Echoing Truth, Echoing Decay, Rain of Blades, Tremor, Infest, Nausea, Cave-In, Ghostly Prison/Propaganda, Ensaring Bridge, Umezawa's Jitte, Savage Twister, Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm, Hail Storm, Orim's Chant/Abeyance and many other cards are all playable and can be good against Empty the Warrens and other decks of different magnitudes.

You just have to learn to accept change and travel with it.

Ewokslayer

06-13-2007, 02:36 PM

FoolofaTook

06-13-2007, 02:44 PM

no one likes to be playing the 'draw go game', whether it be the combo deck that just fizzled or the control deck that forced them to 'fizzle'.

I hate combo with a passion because it goes against all of my aggro/control instincts. I love it when I get into draw-go with a combo deck because 9 times out of 10 I'm going to draw a win before them at that point. It's just really hard to get there when they are going off turn 1 to 3 as often as they are.

BreathWeapon

06-13-2007, 02:46 PM

You can't just compare combo decks to one another and use those comparisons as a basis for an argument, because combo is an analogous term used to describe a set of decks that use the interaction of multiple cards to either end the game or create a dominant board position, and while their objectives are the same, their mechanics are not. High Tide, Gamekeeper/Salvagers, IGGY POP, TES, Belcher and Flash are all separate entities, and just because one combo deck was bad for the format doesn't mean that another combo deck or all combo decks are bad for the format.

If combo does become more popular, it's just going to force Suicide, Threshold, Aggro-Prison or Prison to take on a more prolific position in the metagame and turn Goblins into a metagame deck. People are over exaggerating just how fast and consistent combo decks are in this format, because with the exception of Belcher, the worst combo can do is redefine the fundamental turn to 3, and Belcher is an "All-In deck" that is either winning or losing on the first turn, which is just as much of a detriment to it as it is an advantage for it.

Flash was a problem because Flash was a one card win condition with the most efficient tutors and counters the game had ever seen, it DESTROYED aggro-control, and the only way to really contain it was to MD or SB Leyline of the Void. The moment combo starts to look like combo-control and has a fundamental turn of two is when you should start panicking, but short of that, if combo as we understand it become a more prolific metagame force that's an acceptable result of the card pool. I mean for fuck's sake they unbanned LED, so they had to know combo would be a serious factor eventually.

Muradin

06-13-2007, 02:50 PM

But to make this happen the combo player must be on the play and has to have a quite good hand providing him the ability to go for 10+ tokens first turn. Most hands with that ability will become significantly worse facing down force of will. TES and similar combo decks are still much more fragile than flash and can in no way be compared to it in resilance.

Tacosnape

06-13-2007, 03:05 PM

But you can have a land out on a consistent basis, hell, Empty the Warrens doesn't even kill until you have two lands out. If you're not playing a deck that can't disrupt an opponent in this metagame, you probably shouldn't be playing it. Your opponent doesn't even have to be playing combo, a Duress, Cabal Therapy, Hymn to Tourach, Stifle, Pyroclasm, Enginneered Explosives, Engineered Plague, Wrath of God/Damnation (If they Warrens on turn two), Echoing Truth, Echoing Decay, Rain of Blades, Tremor, Infest, Nausea, Cave-In, Ghostly Prison/Propaganda, Ensaring Bridge, Umezawa's Jitte, Savage Twister, Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm, Hail Storm, Orim's Chant/Abeyance and many other cards are all playable and can be good against Empty the Warrens and other decks of different magnitudes.

Bold: Too slow to stop Empty the Warrens when it goes off turn one before you get a move without acceleration.
Underline: Narrow janky crap.

This leaves us with Pyroclasm, Engineered Explosives, Echoing Truth, Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, and Glacial Chasm. I'll add Crime//Punishment to this list, as it does the job too.

Tabernacle and Glacial Chasm are narrow and can only be supported effectively in a few decks. Pyroclasm can only be run in Red, and the premier Red deck in the format can't afford to run it (Though it can run Brightstone Ritual.) It's solid in secondary red decks, though. Echoing Truth is rarely run outside of Blue combo, just because bouncing isn't considered to be a viable long-term solution. Crime//Punishment requires you be running Black and Green to pull off.

This leaves Engineered Explosives as being unquestionably the best answer to Empty the Warrens, and in my opinion the only one that fits into over half the decks in Legacy.

You just have to learn to accept change and travel with it.

On the contrary, I'm entitled to make my points and arguments all I want and I don't have to learn to accept it at all. Time will prove Empty the Warrens to be the format-distorting card it is (It's already taken 1st place at multiple decent-sized tournaments), and I'll continue to be the loudest voice against it remaining in the format.

emidln

06-13-2007, 03:54 PM

Bold: Too slow to stop Empty the Warrens when it goes off turn one before you get a move without acceleration.
Underline: Narrow janky crap

These are only too slow if you play janky or improperly designed decks.

Engineered Plague - Playable from turn 1 on in all decks that run it except builds of Landstill and Fish (decks that are generally slow control decks or decks that provide other answers)

Wrath of God/Damnation - Playable from turns 2-3 off of Moxen (coincidentally, what many control decks play, or Dark Ritual in the case of Damnation).

Infest - Playable from turn 1

Ghostly Prison/Propaganda - Playable from turn 1 in Stax, which is the only control deck that runs it.

Ensnaring Bridge - Playable from turn 1 in Stax, the only deck that can run it, and effective between turns 2-4 depending on the number of mulligans and the rest of the hand. Not a consistent answer in most decks. The only deck to play this card runs 4 Rolling Earthquake main and up to 3 Pyroclasm, both easy answers to ETW.

You left out an absolute meta bomb that can come online as early as turn 2 against later than turn 1 ETW: Aether Flash. In addition to completely nullifying ETW, it hoses Goblins, a good part of Fish as a singleton, a good part of deadguy, and with two destroys most creatures in the format preemptively.

BreathWeapon

06-13-2007, 03:56 PM

emidln

06-13-2007, 03:59 PM

Empty the Warrens is no more format distorting than Goblin Lackey is, one just advocates mass removal while the other advocates spot removal, neither of which are too narrow to include in a MD any way.

You can also add Sandstorm to that list as anti Empty the Warrens and Goblin Lackey removal.

Actually both advocate cheap mass removal. It doesn't matter if lackey hits you if you can wipe away whatever he drops turn 2. Furthermore, if you can prevent anything lackey drops from mattering (say with Aether Flash) you can stop both ETW and Lackey.

Goaswerfraiejen

06-13-2007, 04:01 PM

You can also add Sandstorm to that list as anti Empty the Warrens and Goblin Lackey removal.

Now there's an interesting green option I'd forgotten about. Very interesting...

APriestOfGix

06-13-2007, 04:02 PM

Combo wouln't become a huge problem simply because cause at large event's ether 1) it's too expensive to build, 2) too hard to play all day, or 3) you have a deck you like to play more.

it's pretty simple, TES is way powerful, but it still only takes 1 top 8 and the other 6 slots are aggro/control.

BreathWeapon

06-13-2007, 04:42 PM

Actually both advocate cheap mass removal. It doesn't matter if lackey hits you if you can wipe away whatever he drops turn 2. Furthermore, if you can prevent anything lackey drops from mattering (say with Aether Flash) you can stop both ETW and Lackey.

Sometimes just connecting once and resoling Goblin Ringleader is good enough to make me want to use spot removal in place of mass removal to prevent Goblins from generating the card advantage, but I agree that mass removal in and of itself is too good to dismiss over spot removal and that Engineered Explosives in particular is amazing right now.

Sandstorm is a super solid go between card tho' in terms of preventing a Goblin Lackey from connecting and still serving as mass removal. I really liked that card in 3cSlide when I replaced Swords to Plowshares for it, and it probably deserves to see more play than it does.

Tacosnape

06-13-2007, 05:18 PM

Sandstorm is one of the ten most underrated cards in Legacy. I pack four in my Survival sideboard.

This is not just sneaky tech for most green-based decks; I'd argue it's almost mandatory.

thefreakaccident

06-13-2007, 05:22 PM

This is absurd. You can't possibly make an argument for the health of the metagame by completely eliminating an archetype of deck. What you have basically stated is a wish that only two decks exist: Overpowered combo, and decks with overpowered combo in their sights. This was what we had when Flash was legal.

I am all for the health of combo. I think Combo was healthy and has been healthy from the inception of Legacy up until the printing of Empty the Warrens. I feel like Empty the Warrens is the only real culprit that is too strong for the format. It sets up too many situations, far moreso than any other card, where an opponent's game is all but over before his first turn, barring a few nonversatile cards targeted specifically to hate on it. With it gone, combo is still quite strong and versatile and capable of succeeding at large tournaments, as decks like Solidarity, Gamekeeper Salvagers, and Iggy Pop all proved many times on large scales.

In addition to being all for the health of combo, I am also for the health of aggro, control, and all balances between the three. I think Legacy up until Time Spiral was the healthiest a format has ever been. No true tier one deck existed, although goblins earned that reputation.

After a lot of analysis, I recant anything I ever said about banning LED. I think Lion's Eye Diamond is one of the thirteen most important cards for Legacy being a healthy format. (The others I intend to write an article for soon, if I can find a site that will publish it.)

I am sorry sir, but the true reason (I thought) about flash was the fact that it could be as controling (or even moreso) than most control decks/aggro control decks.

it was a pain in the ass to try and counter/stifle the 'combo (I call it just broken)' when they run even more countermagic than you might.

I always keep a hand with FoW against combo, but that wasn't enough because they either had their own or a daze... that was rediculous.

ETW is not unbeatable, in fact it is easier to deal with than dying instantaniously to a brainfreeze or tendrils.

ETW can be dealt with by any quick board clearer, as well as stifled/trickbinded (which were the only ways to deal with other storm spells).

I would much rather someone cast ETW and have a couple of turns to find a solution than die upon resolution of the spell... that's just me though.

I did not say that I wanted to cut it up into two catagories (rather the rock, paper, and sciscors annalagy provided before)... I do not see why all you guys are saying all the combos are becomming unbeatable (unless you guys are bitching that your lackey isn't all that great anymore).

I play decks designed to beat gobs and combo, but die to aggro control and stax, so I would like to see the meta either be
goblins or combo... The flash meta screwed with me mainly because everyone was picking up Hanni fish.

that's where I stand, I play against players piloting belcher/TES (sometimes iggy) on a regular basis at my local tourney, so I know that they are not nearly as broken as you guys say.

barron

06-13-2007, 06:01 PM

How often have you guys seen a first turn ETW drop with EPIC? (as a percentage of the matches). I don't think I have seen it very often myself, turn 2 more-so, and then I don't find it all that bad to deal with. I can race it with solidarity and i maindeck 4 powderkegs in my stax deck, so that is always a gamble, and I have even readily out-done the Gobbos with my dragon stompy build. I can see it being a massive problem for thresh, but, as a solidarity player....screw mage

Bane of the Living

06-13-2007, 06:44 PM

The format has dealt with many powerful things and has adapted to deal with them such as Goblin Lackey and Flash. It's not like either card mentioned is unstoppable or utterly broken to the point a large part of the metagame is unplayable.

First off I cant stand that you compared Lackey and Flash. Yes Flash is utterly broken to that point. It was ban worthy and beat the snot out of dedicated hate decks. Where the hell were you this spring?

I dont know if you left Solidarity and Gamekeeper out on purpose or simply forgot about them. You can have your personal opinions all you want Gamekeeper is a combo deck and it has placed very well for itself.

I dont think combo is too much of a problem. The only decks that combo completely snuffs are the ones designed with no proper outs to a combo opponent. Those decks usually get a significant boost against control/aggro because of what they lack against combo. Glass Cannon decks are fine in certain meta's.

BreathWeapon

06-13-2007, 07:15 PM

First off I cant stand that you compared Lackey and Flash. Yes Flash is utterly broken to that point. It was ban worthy and beat the snot out of dedicated hate decks. Where the hell were you this spring?

I dont know if you left Solidarity and Gamekeeper out on purpose or simply forgot about them. You can have your personal opinions all you want Gamekeeper is a combo deck and it has placed very well for itself.

I dont think combo is too much of a problem. The only decks that combo completely snuffs are the ones designed with no proper outs to a combo opponent. Those decks usually get a significant boost against control/aggro because of what they lack against combo. Glass Cannon decks are fine in certain meta's.

Despite having combo finishes it's difficult to call High Tide and Gamekeeper/Salvagers combo in the same sense of the word that we use to describe TES and Belcher because of their fundamental turns. I'd argue that High Tide is a control deck with a combo finish and Gamekeeper/Salvagers is a board control deck with a combo finish more than actual combo. I don't think I've ever heard some one use the words unhealthy or unfair when describing High Tide or Gamekeeper/Salvagers, and I think that's probably because of aggro being able to race race both of those decks to their fundamental turn.

I think in order for combo to be "combo," it needs to be a full turn faster than the fastest aggro deck in the format.

Bane of the Living

06-13-2007, 07:31 PM

I think in order for combo to be "combo," it needs to be a full turn faster than the fastest aggro deck in the format.

This is flawed logic. The fastest aggro deck in the format is now Manaless Ichorid. It wins turns 1-3 the fundemental CRET and TES turns. Does this mean it is a combo deck?

Some builds of flash combo were designed to go off specifically turn 3 instead of a turn 1-2 rush. Are those not considered combo by your standard?

I have heard many many clammers of Solidarity being unfair by winning instant speed and being reliable enough to master the stack. Ive heard many of my opponents tell me Gamekeeper was unhealthy as a combo deck simply because I ran 8 discard spells. These decks are simply under represented at the moment. Gamekeeper just won the 2 Man Tournament run by Tacosnape and it does extremely well for me whenever I play it.

I would say the only difference between the aforementioned decks and Solidarity/Gamekeeper is the skill required to pilot them. Alot of people made cracks about Gearhart being the only one that could pilot Solidarity correctly till multiple other fans grinded out games and learnt how to make the right play with the deck. Gamekeeper is admitedly the most complicated decision packed deck Ive ever played.

Most decks like TES and CRET actually play themselves. You just need to play the cards in the right order and filter colored mana correctly.

BreathWeapon

06-13-2007, 08:04 PM

This is flawed logic. The fastest aggro deck in the format is now Manaless Ichorid. It wins turns 1-3 the fundemental CRET and TES turns. Does this mean it is a combo deck?

Some builds of flash combo were designed to go off specifically turn 3 instead of a turn 1-2 rush. Are those not considered combo by your standard?

I have heard many many clammers of Solidarity being unfair by winning instant speed and being reliable enough to master the stack. Ive heard many of my opponents tell me Gamekeeper was unhealthy as a combo deck simply because I ran 8 discard spells. These decks are simply under represented at the moment. Gamekeeper just won the 2 Man Tournament run by Tacosnape and it does extremely well for me whenever I play it.

I would say the only difference between the aforementioned decks and Solidarity/Gamekeeper is the skill required to pilot them. Alot of people made cracks about Gearhart being the only one that could pilot Solidarity correctly till multiple other fans grinded out games and learnt how to make the right play with the deck. Gamekeeper is admitedly the most complicated decision packed deck Ive ever played.

Most decks like TES and CRET actually play themselves. You just need to play the cards in the right order and filter colored mana correctly.

No, surmising that Mana-Less Ichorid is indeed an aggro deck when the deck has no traditional affiliations with aggro and uses Lion's Eye Diamond and Token Creatures to win, characteristics which could be used to categorize Mana-Less Ichorid with combo, is a tangential counter argument for a point I think most people will recognize for what it is.

Isn't it obvious that Turn 3 Flash is still faster than the Turn 4 fundamental turn of aggro and thus fits the definition of "combo" as I used it above?

Where are those cries of the unfairness of High Tide and Gamekeeper now?

I'm not going to get into an argument about skill.

thefreakaccident

06-13-2007, 08:11 PM

why are you guys arguing about whether or not gamekeeper, ichorid, and solidarity are combo?

they are obviously combo, and I do not see any room for confusion... now if we had an exact definition then that would be nice.

to settle the 'arguement', breath was right... end of discussion.

this thread is about whether or not there will be a high population of combo players this summer. It has nothing about decks that could be combos or not.

honestly, I would truely like to know what you guys personally think the fundamental turn has become with the 'newer' meta.

Personally I think it is 1-3, that is enough time to kill with a quick goblins' hand, kill with a combo deck, and find answers for either by the third party (i.e. control).

Bryant Cook

06-13-2007, 08:33 PM

First off I cant stand that you compared Lackey and Flash. Yes Flash is utterly broken to that point. It was ban worthy and beat the snot out of dedicated hate decks. Where the hell were you this spring? Chill out a bit, take a breather before posting. If you reread what I said I was talking about Empty the Warrens and Lion's Eye Diamond when mentioning the "Unstoppable or utterly broken".

I dont know if you left Solidarity and Gamekeeper out on purpose or simply forgot about them. You can have your personal opinions all you want Gamekeeper is a combo deck and it has placed very well for itself. It was meant to be on Ritual based combo neither Gamekeeper or Solidarity fall under this catagory. I've never said gamekeeper hasn't placed for its self, but I believe its more like the Rock with a combo finish than a combo deck. Combo decks aim to win ASAP were as Gamekeeper takes its time winning.

Bane of the Living

06-13-2007, 08:56 PM

Chill out a bit, take a breather before posting. If you reread what I said I was talking about Empty the Warrens and Lion's Eye Diamond when mentioning the "Unstoppable or utterly broken".

It was meant to be on Ritual based combo neither Gamekeeper or Solidarity fall under this catagory. I've never said gamekeeper hasn't placed for its self, but I believe its more like the Rock with a combo finish than a combo deck. Combo decks aim to win ASAP were as Gamekeeper takes its time winning.

It's not like either card mentioned is unstoppable or utterly broken to the point a large part of the metagame is unplayable.

Im pointing out how you mention Flash is stoppable and not utterly broken to the point that a portion of the metagame is unplayable. Which is absurd. Flash rendered several archetypes unplayable such as Angel Stompy, Survival, Lands.dec; Look through the N&D and check out how many people drop the chime "cant beat flash".

I didnt see anything posted about your "History" of combo only in regards to ritual combo. The topic is Combo Summer not Ritual Combo.

I dont really care whether each deck is classified as Combo/Control or Control/Combo but nontheless each wins in a combo fashion not by swinging with Mishras Factories. Keeper does play Dark Ritual and is fully capable of winning turn 2. Doesnt that still make it a ritual based combo with a fundemental turn 2?

In conclusion, this thread needs more Gearhart.

sammiel

06-13-2007, 09:08 PM

ETW is not unbeatable, in fact it is easier to deal with than dying instantaniously to a brainfreeze or tendrils.

this is strictly wrong. I can drop 8 or 10 goblins turn 1 with TES about 25% of the time. Thats goldfishing about 40ish games. Some of those would have been stopped cold with a force on a ritual, but not all. Thats a turn 3 or 4 kill, or a turn 2 or 3 kill if I can wish into a war strike. None of those hands were capable of a turn 1 tendrils, and although they *might* have been a turn 2 or 3 kill, that one or two turns I give my opponent a chance to draw a stifle/duress/whatever might cost me the game.

Whereas if I dump out a load of 1/1s on the table, unless you run a very quick, usually narrow (except for keg/explosives) answer, you lose.

*edit*

I also play Mono-W stax, and I'm back to maindecking a pair of kegs and another two in the side just because of how bad a quick ETW is for my normally awesome combo matchup.

Deep6er

06-13-2007, 09:29 PM

Hmmm, seems to me like this thread needs more me. Anyway, I don't really see the possibilities of comparing Legacy combo decks to 'Flash'-acy Flash decks. Flash was a format all on it's own. It was absolutely the best and only choice to take to a tournament that you wanted to win. CRET Belcher and TES aren't like that. They exist in a completely different format. Bane is right on some things though. Wastedlife made Flash sound fair. Now, not a crime or anything, but is a tad misleading. He's also right that Wastedlife's dismissal/omission of Solidarity and Gamekeeper was odd to the point that it required calling attention to it. Also, he was right that this thread needed more me. Anyway, Wastedlife brought up a couple of very good points. I thought the history was pretty accurate although I have to admit that 'Raining Tendrils' was humorous. I think it's important to note that Wastedlife seems to think in a manner that reflects the idea that combo will become a much larger portion of the metagame in the future. I think that Bane is trying to say that the format is being sped up not necessarily ONLY due to the combo decks. End result is that Bane and Wastedlife are saying things that are similar but go through different methods to achieve that end result. Wastedlife through Combo Summer and Bane through tight play and ridiculous card interactions. Sound about right?

cupajoe

06-13-2007, 09:53 PM

Bryant Cook

06-14-2007, 09:18 AM

Empty the Warrens gives combo nice flexibility....You can either kill with ETW or Tendrils, (or Brain Freeze) making combo decks increasingly difficult to hate out.....

But I don't know if the flexibility is enough to warrant banning....There's already a lot of decks in Legacy that are extremely flexible....can shift game plans etc.

What I see as banworthy is Lions Eye Diamond....All of the super-fast combo decks run it (IGG, TES, Belcher etc) and I think a conditional Lotus is too fast for this format....

Decks shouldn't consistently win before Turn 3 in my opinion.....

If those combo decks lost LED, they would still be viable, just not as consistently blazingly fast.....Decks shouldn't be incredibly fast AND resilient....Flash was the utter extreme of this, but the other crop of combo decks still cross the line, IMHO

Why ban LED? Its not the card that makes everything broken. Belcher lists barely abuse the card, they could care less if it was Dark Ritual. TES abuses LED fairly badly, but one deck that abuses a card doesn't mean that card shoild get the banhammer.

Decks would still be just as fast, I doubt Belcher would even care if LED got banned. It would Kill Tendrils combo, but belcher would be left unharmed.

Happy Gilmore

06-14-2007, 10:37 AM

Why ban LED? Its not the card that makes everything broken. Belcher lists barely abuse the card, they could care less if it was Dark Ritual. TES abuses LED fairly badly, but one deck that abuses a card doesn't mean that card shoild get the banhammer.

Decks would still be just as fast, I doubt Belcher would even care if LED got banned. It would Kill Tendrils combo, but belcher would be left unharmed.

I've always felt the better answer would be to unban cards that increase the overall power level of the format rather than take it down a notch. LED's drawback is substantial and in every case leaves the opponent open to countermagic. I personally would prefer having multiple strong archetypes rather than only one or two.

As it is, Combo/Agro-control/and Agro are fairly balanced. Unbanning Replenish was a great step in the right direction but I still have not seen a control deck to come around that puts up any consistent results. Maybe that’s the nature of this format.

Someone a couple of pages back mentioned that combo tends to gain the most from the printing of new sets, I can't agree more. How often does Wizards print good control cards? They are already leaning away from good blue cards; the chance of a good spell coming out is mediocre at best. Counterbalance and Gifts are the last two big additions. Counterbalance is much better in thresh than in a dedicated control deck, and so far no one has found a set of 4 cards to search with Gifts that wins the game efficiently.

Iranon

06-14-2007, 12:43 PM

About the percentages... in my testing with TES, I managed to combo out on the first turn 21% of the time (10% kills, 11% goblin hordes).

That was under the assumption that 10 Goblins are enough on the play, 12 on the draw. That should be enough to overrun most creature decks even if they get a decent start.
Incidentally, I counted the goldfish attempt a failure if it didn't kill by turn 4. TES was, according to the standards i set beforehand, the least consistent deck I tested with a 12% fail rate which is somewhat misleading. If I had lowered my standards to 8 goblins turn 1, the success rate would have been near perfect and the percentage of turn 1 plays would have gone way up. That is not certain to work against a real opponent though.
In this sense Empty the Warrens is quite significant, as it allows you to do 'something' on a consistent basis.

Seeing as fast combo decks are quite reliable these days, Solidarity and Salvagers Game come across as bastards spawned by an unholy union between MUC/The Rock and a true combo decks.
Flash had comparable control tools, with speed not far behind the true combo decks. Resilency and consistency were also quite impressive.

Now about the concerns that combo decks are too good for the format... we have 3 impressively fast combo decks, and each of them does quite well against some things that are generally assumed to stop combo cold.

Discard is not sufficient against SI. If they get some mana sources down, they can undo all efforts by their opponent by topdecking a Contract and do something degenerate from there. The same applies to counters if those mana sources are permanent.
Early disruption is necessary because SI has a stupidly high chance to kill on turn 1 (~45% when playing conservatively. On the draw and trying to force the issue it's closer to 60%)... but unless the opposing deck has permanent-based hate such as Null Rod, Chalices or taxing effects, they need to keep disrupting while presenting a relevant clock or SI will simply overpower them in the long run.

TES on the other hand can win through ridiculous amounts of permanent-based hate (what they can't play around, they answer via their wishboard), can usually get a decent amount of goblins almost at will if an opening presents itself. Burying them under tons of counters or discard isn't guaranteed to work but usually slows them down quite a bit because their individual cards are geared towards flexibility and not raw power.

Belcher is a total wild card; even if they don't kill outright they are almost assured to have something major in play turn 2. Unfortunately, there is little that is effective against an active Belcher and ETW (Stifle often only delays the envitable).
While sometimes a Force on Belcher can make them sit in a corner and sulk for 8 round straight because they draw nothing but mana, the same aspect of the deck means they excel at putting down a large number of dorks into play turn one without any way for the opponent to prevent it, and Daze & friends might as well not exist.

The tools to fight combo are all there; having the right ones in the first place and drawing them in time becomes an issue though. This means even decks packing a significant amount of sideboard hate won't have a hugely favourable game against modern combo.
Moreover, since the 3 best fast combo decks have different vulnerabilities a mostly-combo metagame can exist since any dedicated anti-combo deck will probably fail to crush all 3.

BreathWeapon

06-14-2007, 02:32 PM

emidln

06-14-2007, 04:00 PM

Until aggro-control or control goes into contortions to defeat Belcher and/or TES with a card as non-interactive as Leyline of the Void and then fail to do so, I think the increase in the use of Stifle, Piracy Charm, Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt, Chalice of the Void etc. is fine for the format. None of those cards are as one dimensional as Leyline of the Void and at the very least they should be able to contain the combo in the format to a healthy portion of the metagame.

Also, to clear a couple things up, resolving a Belcher isn't the same thing as being inevitable, Goblins can Tin Street Hooligan it or Waste/Port the Taiga and aggro-control can cantrip into a Pithing Needle for it or counters and Meddling Mage for the acceleration and then slip in a Tarmogoyf for the win. Counters and permanent based hate affect all combo decks equally, it's when people start aiming at the opponent's win conditions that they'll find any disparity in their card choices, and even then Warrens is still a safe bet since every combo deck plays with it. SI is an awful deck, I don't think any one takes it seriously when they are discussing combo. Draw 4's definitely aren't bad, but that particular deck packs it in to any form of disruption so hard.

Perhaps you're playing it wrong or are just plain bad at playing/metagaming combo. From some of the other threads, I'm not sure which this is. SI is great at being really fast while being able to slow down and wait for an opening. Moreso than any other deck, it punishes control for not applying immediate pressure. Give SI a few turns after you stop the initial onslaught and it can combo through 2-3 counters and a stifle or two on the same turn. This is especially true of the blue version that goes EOT Meditate and won't go off until it has 10-11 cards in its hand against control. Lately, both B.C. and I have been testing red splash versions that run 3-4 Empty the Warrens and 4 SSG main in order to turn the percentages for turn 1 even higher while being able to better countermagic.

As far as disruption that SI packs up to? The same as TES, Iggy Pop, and Belcher: 2-3 discard spells by turn 3 and a fast clock AND poor luck. Something that Belcher and TES have a particularly hard time doing is what Iggy Pop and SI do all the time, go down to 0 cards in hand, topdeck a tutor/draw4/igg and go off. I've won games through multiple extirpates, hymns, duress, and haunting echoes (in the same game) against decks that put up no pressure like MBC and Truffle Shuffle. Stifle? We run Cabal Therapies and men to flash them back? Countermagic? Slow it down and we run right through it on the back of drawing an extra 12-24 cards. I've won games through multiple pieces of countermagic AND active counterbalance/top. The only thing that SI generally packs up to is Trinisphere, and to a lesser extent Chalice @ 0 followed by a clock. Everything else is just a speedbump.

BreathWeapon

06-14-2007, 05:18 PM

To be honest, I have no idea what the current SI lists look like, it's just always been a combo deck that's never put up any numbers in my eyes, but feel free to prove me wrong.

APriestOfGix

06-14-2007, 06:36 PM

Here, stop complaining...

A Combo deck is a deck that uses a series of card interactions to perform a set action and thus win the game.

That includes all combo decks, and it what combo actually does.

Guy I Don't Know

06-14-2007, 07:59 PM

This person ive played burning wishes for infernal tutor, infernal tutors for ... Desperate ritual becuase he thought Infernal Tutor was a Demonic Tutor and then decides hmmm I rather take three mana burn then make 10 goblins turn one... he then proceeds to play a belcher and says go, and then says o wait, i could of killed you with Simian Spirit Guide and a Rite of Flame. Then he kills me next turn. TWO TURNS LATER THAN HE COULD OF..... and he still wins... with that many make-me-wanna-throw-up play mistakes. A deck that is that easy to play... and wins that much... is that goood for a format? I wouldn't mind if the combo is like alluren or solidarity or some other deck(if you think those aren't competitive) that takes some skill and an I wouldn't mind losing at all... but when it involves someone who has no clue what they are doing can still win... well that makes me not want to play magic anymore... especially legacy.

BreathWeapon

06-14-2007, 08:16 PM

You can't dismiss a deck based on beginners luck, if the opponent had tried that against you with an aggro-control deck, you could have really punished him for it. Combo decks are incredibly forgiving against aggro decks because of their nature, there's really not anything you can do about that.

cupajoe

06-14-2007, 08:25 PM

I guess this is just gaming philosophy more than "Is x or y deck unbeatable"

I don't think it's overall healthy for the format to have decks that can consistently win before Turn 3.....It completely reduces the fun factor for many players.....

If I pay my $10-20 to enter a tournament, I don't want a round lasting a few minutes unless the guy I played against was unbelievably lucky....

And the more combo decks can win Turn 1-2, the more you'll see them at tournaments

Combo is still a perfectly viable archetype if it wins Turn 3-4-5 rather than Turn 1-2....It was played by enough people to make it dangerous, but not enough to ruin tourneys

So, you've convinced me about ETW

So maybe ETW and LED should be banned :)

BreathWeapon

06-14-2007, 08:38 PM

The problem with that assessment is that ETW isn't winning before turn 3/4, it's just casting 10 Goblins on turn 1/2. That still gives the opponent a lot of options, as opposed to Belcher just being GG.

Nothing about "combo" right now is degenerate, people just don't seem to like it, and that's not a good enough to reason to ban it. I think combo is good for the format, because it turns Goblins from being the best deck into a Glass Cannon and leaves other aggro decks that choose to interact with disruption a window of opportunity to establish themselves.

FoolofaTook

06-14-2007, 10:04 PM

ETW doesn't scare me. It uses a 4 or 5 storm count to empty it's hand on turn 1 or maybe 2 and then it goes away to Earthquake and just loses.

I got back into Magic 2 months ago and I'm still having problems against a few decks but ETW is no problem at all. The first time I Earthquaked on turn 1 with a Lotus Petal the guy I was sitting opposite just looked at me disgustedly and said something to the effect of: "that's such a janky card, nobody plays it anymore." Of course he's not playing ETW any more, now he's going with Storm Entities and Tendrils of Agony.

Pale Moon FTW

06-15-2007, 10:40 AM

CRET Belcher doesn't seem that broken. There are plenty of ways to deal with the goblin tokens and turn 1 Belcher hand is foiled by FoW. So you're not running blue? Then it's only fair that it's a bad matchup because you probably then have a good matchup against aggro-control. A rock-paper-scissors format isn't a bad thing because it keeps the archetypes balanced.
I dunno about TES though, but I doubt it'll rip the format and nobody plays SI because FoW rapes it.
In the past combo has always been the least played decktype and I only think it's fair that it becomes equal with the other decktypes.

Tacosnape

06-15-2007, 11:43 AM

I don't see how there's any sort of valid argument that "Rock-Paper-Scissors" is healthy for a format which currently goes something like "Rock-Paper-Doughnut-Aquarium-Chainsaw-Tax Rebate-Scone-Time-Alligator-Spaghetti-Walrus-Bomb-Scissors."

EDIT: For those who need further explanation:

Rock smashes Scissors.
Paper wraps around Rock.
I'd eat a Doughnut instead of Paper.
Doughnuts get soggy in an Aquarium.
Chainsaws appear in more zombie movies than Aquariums.
Tax Rebates make you able to afford Chainsaws.
Scones are nummy.
Time makes Scones stale.
Alligators live a long time.
Spaghetti kills Alligators. Violently.
Walrii can eat more Spaghetti than you can imagine.
Bomb blows up the Walrus.
Scissors cut the wire (THE BLUE ONE) to the Bomb.

Seriously, Rock-Paper-Scissors is a downgrade in health for a format that currently has like twenty hard to define deck archetypes all with bizarre varied results against the other nineteen.

dre4m

06-15-2007, 01:54 PM

emidln

06-15-2007, 03:58 PM

So Scones don't beat anything but lose to Time? And Tax Rebates don't lose to ANYTHING?

So Goblins qualify as Tax Rebates?

Berzerked

06-15-2007, 10:52 PM

I'm a strong proponent of letting the environment evolve by itself. That's right, I don't believe any card should be banned (but that's off-topic). Just like in the world we live in, where an environment exists and species must evolve and adapt to survive, our Legacy environment constantly changes. Well, certain species have been presented with new advancements and have obviously taken advantage of them (Empty the Warrens). Yes, this speeds them up, and provides them with resiliency and consistancy, agression; Something every deck type tries to accomplish. Just because this deck type was able to do it, doesn't mean you should cut it down.
Other decks need to adapt or they will be kicked out of the tier. So you're Goblin deck isn't playable anymore. Frankly, big fucking deal. This isn't casual, where you can play your pet deck and expect to win. If you want to compete then you need to do what is necessary. Vintage is a perfect example of this, Combo is extremely fast and resilient, and certain decks have managed to stick around. Namely, Fish and Stax, and plenty of Workshop. Consequently, those decks have become viable in our format. So play them. Other decks like Thresh, Black Aggro, and Landstill can and have been tweaked to survive, and survive well. Even Goblins. I'm surprised that more people haven't tweaked with the Dirty Kitty version. It's got a strong, surprising combo packed into an agressive Goblin shell. Multiple win conditions (Grapeshot, hasted tokens) that Pithing needle can't stop because you have access to Hooligan, and Meddling Mage is worthless against because you still have that fast Goblin agression.
Anyway, if you need to pack a bunch of hate to deal with this, then you need to do it. Raise the bar by competing, don't lower it by cutting your competition down (unless you're across the table from them).
I'm currently running a disruption package of:
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Duress
with Confidant to keep the pressure coming, Goyf for quick, efficient beats, and plenty of deck manipulation/cantrip. I'm also tweaking to fit a triad of Explosives in main, though now I have them in the board, along with Plagues. This set-up has been working quite well. Fish can play a similar gameplan. Stax is insane. I think it's packing every viable hate card in a shell that can also beat a huge portion of decks in the field.
Basically, what I'm getting at, is quit bitching and start tweaking.

C.P.

06-15-2007, 11:57 PM

If you want to compete then you need to do what is necessary. Vintage is a perfect example of this, Combo is extremely fast and resilient, and certain decks have managed to stick around. Namely, Fish and Stax, and plenty of Workshop.

(...)

Basically, what I'm getting at, is quit bitching and start tweaking.

I think this topic came up with whole flash madness, but Legacy has nothing to do with vintage. I'd like to play a format where diversity is valued, and for that, I wouldn't mind seeing some unfair card to be banned. I know some people claims that eternal format's power lever will eventually lead the format into becoming Vintage Jr. Well, that should never happen, and thats the reason that some cards are Banned.

Constant pressure of losing game on turn 2 is a serious concern if you do not build decks with counters, and that's why everyone is worried about, at least that's what I think. This is legacy, where everyone can have fun with non-blue, non-black cards.

About the combo summer, we well have to see, but I think It will eventually prove to be too much for the format. there aren't much you can do outside of B/U to stop the fast combo, and that's pretty unhealthy, at least in legacy standard.

Hummingbird TG

06-16-2007, 12:13 AM

There are plenty of ways to answer the decks. You can answer the combo itself (e.g. Chalice, FoW, discard), or answer the Goblin tokens it pours out(Engineered Plague, Earthquake, Pyroclasm, Tividar's Crusade, WoG)

BreathWeapon

06-16-2007, 08:50 AM

I think this topic came up with whole flash madness, but Legacy has nothing to do with vintage. I'd like to play a format where diversity is valued, and for that, I wouldn't mind seeing some unfair card to be banned. I know some people claims that eternal format's power lever will eventually lead the format into becoming Vintage Jr. Well, that should never happen, and thats the reason that some cards are Banned.

Constant pressure of losing game on turn 2 is a serious concern if you do not build decks with counters, and that's why everyone is worried about, at least that's what I think. This is legacy, where everyone can have fun with non-blue, non-black cards.

About the combo summer, we well have to see, but I think It will eventually prove to be too much for the format. there aren't much you can do outside of B/U to stop the fast combo, and that's pretty unhealthy, at least in legacy standard.

G/r/w have a ton of disruption to choose from, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Root Maze, Pyrostatic Pillar, Sandstorm, Earthquake, Powder Keg, Engineered Explosives, Leyline of Singularity, Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Chalice of the Void, Null Rod, Pithing Needle, Leyline of the Void, Samurai of the Pale Curtain, Jotun Grunt, Loaming Shaman, Phyrexian Furance, Tormod's Crypt, Glowrider, Truebeliever, Orim's Chant, Abeyance, Gilded Light to Red/Pyro blast etc. It's not as if G/r/w are helpless against combo, it's that G/r/w hasn't bothered to interact with combo, and it has conceded the match up because of it. It's never going to be a positive match up, but it's not as if it's hopeless.

Syco_Tr0pic

06-16-2007, 10:06 AM

Constant pressure of losing game on turn 2 is a serious concern if you do not build decks with counters, and that's why everyone is worried about, at least that's what I think. This is legacy, where everyone can have fun with non-blue, non-black cards.

Is this a valid argument? Loosing turn 2 if you do not play counters/hand disruption is much better than loosing turn 3 if you don't run removal for turn 1 lackey or cheap board sweepers?
Combo puts control again on the map, or at least gives counters and disruption a role in the format. Goblins by itself pushed a whole slew of control decks (and cards) out of the meta and you guys just acted like "whew, gotta run that plowshares, pyroclasms and plagues, then"... C'mon, people, Goblins used to take more slots in t8s than Flash did in the GP: Flash. Why is it ok for a guy to build a deck with pyroclasms main (or BW Confidant play plagues main for that instance) and its not for a guy to build a deck with Duresses and FoW main? I don't get it.
You guys gotta adapt again. Just that. Really.

Hummingbird TG

06-16-2007, 11:04 AM

Um. GP Flash didn't have Summoner's Pact OR Pact of Negation, so i see no fair comparison of Flash and Gobbos.

Also, at least playing against Gobbos, you can block their Lackey/beaters with Wall of Roots/Blossoms.etc, kill their creatures. You can't use any of those to stop a 'turn 0, Caverns, ESG, Flash, Hulk, GG'. Which is why people hate combo.

FoolofaTook

06-16-2007, 11:18 AM

If you don't have some controls as to which combo cards are available then the Legacy metagame will eventually (probably immediately) turn into go-win on turn 1 or earlier. There are just too many good threats out there and not enough answers that are immediately available. Flash-Hulk was almost at the go-win point in the less predictable DoTV variant. With the addition of Future Sight it might well have been at go-win.

The challenge for the DCI would be to create a Legacy meta in which Force of Will was just a good card, not an option that every deck with blue in it had to have.

C.P.

06-16-2007, 11:38 AM

Is this a valid argument? Loosing turn 2 if you do not play counters/hand disruption is much better than loosing turn 3 if you don't run removal for turn 1 lackey or cheap board sweepers?
Combo puts control again on the map, or at least gives counters and disruption a role in the format. Goblins by itself pushed a whole slew of control decks (and cards) out of the meta and you guys just acted like "whew, gotta run that plowshares, pyroclasms and plagues, then"... C'mon, people, Goblins used to take more slots in t8s than Flash did in the GP: Flash. Why is it ok for a guy to build a deck with pyroclasms main (or BW Confidant play plagues main for that instance) and its not for a guy to build a deck with Duresses and FoW main? I don't get it.
You guys gotta adapt again. Just that. Really.

Yes, It is OK. Having to deal with a broken creature deck is much more healthier than having to deal with broken combo deck. Creature, and combat step is much more general way of winning the game then making 12 goblins on turn 1 or tendrils for 20, thus there are more ways of keeping things in check.

@BreathWeapon

If this is your argument, I can argue for unbanning of Yagwill by naming 2,000 things that hoses graveyard. All the answers that you stated, except some exceptions, are way too slow. Some does not work with the color. Others are simply too slow.

BreathWeapon

06-16-2007, 03:50 PM

Yes, It is OK. Having to deal with a broken creature deck is much more healthier than having to deal with broken combo deck. Creature, and combat step is much more general way of winning the game then making 12 goblins on turn 1 or tendrils for 20, thus there are more ways of keeping things in check.

@BreathWeapon

If this is your argument, I can argue for unbanning of Yagwill by naming 2,000 things that hoses graveyard. All the answers that you stated, except some exceptions, are way too slow. Some does not work with the color. Others are simply too slow.

Warrens and Will have nothing to do with each other, one is a win condition that requires that the entire deck be built around it and the other is an engine that can be added to any deck. Warrens requires mass removal while Will requires graveyard removal, and in this format mass removal is more useful than graveyard removal, because it affects every deck in the format other than High Tide and Burn. Playing mass removal after a Warrens is the equivalent of a Mind Twist, while playing graveyard removal before/after a Will is one for one.

Those answers are too slow? Let me break this down for you,

Belcher, averages turn 1 Warrens at 10 Tokens
TES, averages turn 1 Warrens at 8 to turn 2 Warrens at 10

Against Belcher, all cards up to 2cc are guaranteed to stop the Tokens

The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Crop Rotation for The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Glacial Chasm, Sandstorm, Pyroclasm, Rough/Tumble, Earthquake, Rolling Earthquake, Devastating Dreams, Crime/Punishment, Engineered Explosives, Powder Keg

Against, Belcher, all cards up to 3cc have a 50% chance to stop the Tokens game 1 and then a 100 chance to stop the tokens game 2/3.

Pernicious Deed, Engineered Plague, Tividar's Crusade, Hailstorm, Solitary Confinement, Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, Living Wish for The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Burning Wish for Pyroclasm etc. and Glittering Wish for Dueling Grounds.

Against TES, cards in the 3cc range have higher odds to stop the Tokens game 1, and even cards in the 4cc range have low odds to stop the tokens game 1. Most 4cc cards also either have Dark Ritual, in the case of Damanation, and Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, in the case of Magus of the Tabernacle, to accelerate the answer, and most 3cc cards have Dark Ritual, in the case of Engineered Explosives, and Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, in the case of Propaganda and Ghostly Prison, and Mox Diamond, in the case of Solitary Confinement, and Chrome Mox, in the case of almost any deck, to do the same thing.

Empty the Warrens is like playing Goblin Lackey with a self imposed Mind Twist. The problem with combo in this format is that it turns all of the opponent's answers into win conditions, and that's what makes combo fair in our environment. If you're consistently losing to Empty the Warrens, it's because you aren't prepared for Empty the Warrens. Goblin Charbelcher and Tendrils of Agony are much more threatening against aggro as it stands.

C.P.

06-16-2007, 04:15 PM

Warrens and Will have nothing to do with each other, one is a win condition that requires that the entire deck be built around it and the other is an engine that can be added to any deck. Warrens requires mass removal while Will requires graveyard removal, and in this format mass removal is more useful than graveyard removal, because it affects every deck in the format other than High Tide and Burn. Playing mass removal after a Warrens is the equivalent of a Mind Twist, while playing graveyard removal before/after a Will is one for one.

Those answers are too slow? Let me break this down for you,

Pernicious Deed, Engineered Plague, Tividar's Crusade, Hailstorm, Solitary Confinement, Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, Living Wish for The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Burning Wish for Pyroclasm etc. and Glittering Wish for Dueling Grounds.

First, I have never actively said that ETW was problem. And, yes, your breakdown makes my point. So far, you have suggested two types of answers. Ones that addressed storm, and the other being ones that deals with large amount of tokens. Generally, the ones that runs one cannot run another, otherwise it's just a janky deck that loses to everything but combo.

And, I think someone already addressed this point, but Threats > Answers (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=130823&postcount=25). Every single time. You can name ten billion cards that can answer first turn combo, It will always randomly win that die roll and kill you before you get to answer it. Did you not learn that from the Flash? Fish sucked balls, in a one deck dominated format, even with all that answers. The deck that packs answers you say will do the same. Sucking balls in every damn game and lose.

And your argument for my first post was you just throwing out random answers for the problem. I just want to prove that such argument does not work. You can make case for all the cards in the Banned list like that, and it is wrong.

EDIT: I know the link is part joke, but I like that post too much.

BreathWeapon

06-16-2007, 06:03 PM

There's nothing that prevents a deck from running anti-storm and mass removal cards in the same deck,

Goblins: Root Maze, Pyrostatic Pillar, Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt, Pithing Needle, Pyrokinesis and Goblin Sharpshooter.

Dragon Stompy: Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Pyrostatic Pillar, Earthquake, Rough/Tumble, Rolling Earthquake, Pyroclasm, Devastating Dreams, Burning Wish, Pyrokinesis, Cave-In, Siege Gang Commander, Warmonger and Powder Keg etc.

Fairy Stompy: Force of Will, Chalice of the Void, Trinket Mage for Engineered Explosives and Powder Keg.

AfFOWnity: Force of Will, Chalice of the Void and either Powder Keg, Engineered Explosives or Leonin Blade Trape.

Armageddon Stax: Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Glowrider, Engineered Explosives, Powder Keg, Ghostly Pirson, Magus of the Tabernacle and Windborn Muse.

You also need to reconsider your definition of threats and answers, because in the Empty the Warrens vs mass removal model, the mass removal is the threat to the combo player, because he loses the game if his Empty the Warrens is removed. Goblins doesn't lose the game if Threshold casts Swords to Plowshares on the Goblin Lackey.

Berzerked

06-17-2007, 01:21 AM

Not to mention that any deck that can produce 2 colorless mana can support EE@0.
BreathWeapon is right, if they empty their hand, and you can answer their tokens, you win. You are basically goldfishing at that point.
Tendrils is scarier but requires a higher storm count, and therefore offers more time to react. These decks aren't broken, or at least, not any more than before. Yes, they require some, maybe severe, deck changes, but that's what Magic is about.

You can name ten billion cards that can answer first turn combo, It will always randomly win that die roll and kill you before you get to answer it.

Funny, because Goblins tends to do the same thing. Even with multiple answers to turn1 Lackey, and Plagues and Hydroblasts in the board.
Goblins is far from "broken", and so is combo. They might each require certain answers, but don't say that we don't have these answers for combo, because we have plenty. Most of them are not too slow, and are even decent against a large percentage fo the current field.

This new article, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/academy/42, while written for Extended, is still applicable to the current conversation.

06-17-2007, 01:48 AM

Goblins is far from "broken", and so is combo. They might each require certain answers, but don't say that we don't have these answers for combo, because we have plenty. Most of them are not too slow, and are even decent against a large percentage fo the current field

No, Goblins isn't broken in the slightest. Having 8 Aether Vials, 4 Fact or Fiction, 4 Demonic Tutors, and an incredibly synergistic removal suite isn't broken at all. Of course the deck can be answered, but saying Goblins isn't a broken deck is a statement of denial. It's far more broken than any combo decks we have at the moment, to say the least. Those decks lose to hate, whereas Goblins somehow fights through almost everything.

blacklotus3636

06-17-2007, 10:36 AM

I know people are going to go on and on about this forever without really changing either sides minds but from what I have heard from proponents of both sides is this:

Proponents of banning warrens feelings: Its ok that goblins distorts the format and certain specific cards like lackey make most control decks near unplayable but thats ok because I don`t like control. Empty the warrens and belcher are bad evil cards because it means my aggro deck is stupid and I have to play with control cards in my stompy deck.

Proponents of keeping things the way they are: Everything that is good distorts the format in some way to where certain cards or even decks are unplayable. Empty the warrens makes it to where you have to be able to answer another I win type situation. If you don`t like it`s too bad. Suck it up or die because the DCI ain`t gonna save ya.

I am obviously biased but anyone who is honest with themselves or those around them know everyone is biased to an extent. I think the comparison between goblin lackey and ETW is the stongest evidence for leaving things as they are and its what has made me a strong advocate for leaving ETW alone.
If goblin lackey is left unanswered or uncountered it will win the game by turn 3 and so will ETW. Almost all the same tools that is good against lackey is good against ETW. The only thing that makes lackey manageable today is the distortion that was caused by lackey himself. I think in time people will learn to adapt and the same distortion will make ETW manageable.
In short I beleive ETW and lackey are on the same power level so it is reasonable to make the claim that ETW is broken, distorting and should be banned if you agree that goblin lackey is also broken, distorting and should be banned but it is NOT ok to say ETW should be banned if lackey is ok. If you are making that argument you are arguing for a format with a metagame distorted to your personal liking rather than what is reasonable and balanced in correlation with what else is available in the format.

Cabal-kun

06-17-2007, 10:45 AM

Almost all the same tools that is good against lackey is good against ETW.

Pinpoint creature removal is good against ETW? Wow. I've been missing out. Mass removal will effect both, but the problem is "Will you be able to cast your board clearer in time?"

KillemallCFH

06-17-2007, 11:06 AM

Almost all the same tools that is good against lackey is good against ETW.This is such a ridiculous statement. What the hell do StP, Lightning Bolt, Funeral Charm, Small Pox, Mogg Fanatic, Darkblast, Plated Sliver, Nimble Mongoose, Basking Rootwalla, Carnophage, Sarcomancy, any other 1-drop capable of blocking and killing lackey, or any pinpoint removal do against EtW? Kill 1 of 12 turn one tokens? You can make the case that anti-goblin cards (Engineered Plague, Ghostly Prison/Propoganda, Hail Storm, Pyroclasm) all work against EtW, but anti-Lackey cards certainly do not. The problem is, Goblins cannot get 10 - 16 power out on turn 1, so you actually have time to get enough mana to cast any of the aforementioned cards. EtW can, and there is very little one can do against a horde of 10+ goblins before you even get a turn.

mikekelley

06-17-2007, 11:12 AM

Brightstone Ritual.

I can imagine Vial Gobs sideboarding in brightstone ritual after a g1 anal pounding by TES, only to add 14 red mana to their pool and go bonkers with warchiefs, piledrivers, ringleaders and so on.

FoolofaTook

06-17-2007, 11:16 AM

It is true that all cards that effect Empty the Warrens also effect Goblin Lackey.

The point that blacklotus3636 was making just got turned on it's head because he reversed the cases. When the metagame adapts to handle a turn 1 ETW effectively then Lackey will no longer be a big threat. Aether Vial will still be an issue though.

Kadaj

06-17-2007, 11:45 AM

Broken does not necessarily mean ban-worthy. It just means a very synergistic and powerful card, or combination of cards. In this case, yes Goblins is a broken deck. It, as Diablos put it perfectly, has Demonic Tutors, FoFs, Lackey, Vial, and a load of synergistic removal that's not dead against combo. Does the fact that this deck is by far the most resilient and powerful deck in Legacy (yes, it's both more powerful and resilient than fast combo) and that it distorts the meta around 1 (although you could also argue that Aether Vial is distorting in it's own various ways as well) 1cc creature that you MUST be able to either answer immediately, or ignore and win anyway, to be a viable deck make it worthy of some sort of banning? Debatable. The answers to Lackey are plentiful and in every color in one form or another. Sure it's frustrating when you're 3 color control deck isn't really viable because its goblin matchup sucks, or that your aggro deck will rarely be an optimal choice because goblins has better disruption, a faster kill, and more resiliency, but that happens in every format. There will always be better decks, faster decks, whathaveyou.

However, combo decks like TES are really pushing this format to the brink. On it's own, TES probably wouldn't be that big a problem. It's not that difficult to adapt your deck to deal with a combo deck, but, it is very difficult to shift your deck to simultaneous deal with both insanely fast combo with EtW and Goblins. It might even be impossible, although I doubt it. It's not so much the individual power of these decks that's the issue, it's the combined affect they're having on the format. I, personally, don't think a ban is necessary, but even if it is, what would you ban? Lackey? Vial? EtW? LED? Banning any one of those cards probably wouldn't kill the deck it resides in anyway, weaken it sure, but not kill it. As I said, I have no preference as to what get banned, if anything. But, make sure you're banning cards for the right reasons, and just because you're frustrated with the way the format's going.

georgjorge

06-17-2007, 12:53 PM

blacklotus3636 just won the thread simply by being one of the very few people on internet discussion boards who seems actually capable of seeing the other side of the argument.

KillemallCFH

06-17-2007, 01:00 PM

I fail to see the logic in what you are saying. Blacklotus is, as he admitted, very biased in his post. He isn't calling both sides correct; he is saying that he is correct, and basically decrying all those who think otherwise. I'm not saying he's more biased than anyone else (myself included), but frankly, he really isn't seeing both sides of the argument; he is promoting his feelings and mocking the other side.

Berzerked

06-17-2007, 01:34 PM

No, Goblins isn't broken in the slightest. Having 8 Aether Vials, 4 Fact or Fiction, 4 Demonic Tutors, and an incredibly synergistic removal suite isn't broken at all. Of course the deck can be answered, but saying Goblins isn't a broken deck is a statement of denial. It's far more broken than any combo decks we have at the moment, to say the least. Those decks lose to hate, whereas Goblins somehow fights through almost everything.

My point was that Goblins can flip the "I win" switch at any given time, as well, and it can fight through hate. No one is complaining that Goblins should be given a kick in the ass, so my argument was that combo shouldn't either. In fact, you kind of just aknowladged my point. The fact that you felt like squabbling over a word choice of mine that didn't have any real impact on the point of the statement didn't prove anything.

BreathWeapon

06-17-2007, 04:30 PM

The thing is there are a ton of cards that define the game from turn one on in our environment, is Empty the Warrens and Goblin Lackey any more degenerate than Aether Vial, Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void or Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon and Root Maze? Each one is threatening to create an unrecoverable threat for the opponent if it isn't dealt with in some form, but at least Empty the Warrens and Goblin Lackey pretty much get answered by the same cards. Speaking of which, it really isn't hard to build a deck to defeat combo and Goblins at the same, just Piracy Charm, Stifle, Pithing Needle and Engineered Explosives tend to deal with both sets of decks.

All combo does is force aggro to interact with it, I don't see how that's necessarily unhealthy for the environment. Not being able to auto pilot Goblins degeneracy into the Top 8 is probably a good thing.

Bryant Cook

06-17-2007, 06:30 PM

georgjorge

06-17-2007, 07:53 PM

Speaking of which, it really isn't hard to build a deck to defeat combo and Goblins at the same, just Piracy Charm, Stifle, Pithing Needle and Engineered Explosives tend to deal with both sets of decks.

Piracy Charm...will have very little impact against most Combo
Explosives...is actually somewhat too slow against Goblins
Needle...will do nothing against Tendrils/ETW Combo

Stifle is fine, however.

Guy I Don't Know

06-17-2007, 09:54 PM

Bryant Cook

06-17-2007, 10:04 PM

If combo like belcher had 8 belchers and 0 etw or 8etw and 0 belchers i think it would be fair but what they do is if you have counters they play etw adn if u have mass removal they pay belcher... u have to have counterspell and mass removal to have a good game vs them or be playing other disruption and a fast clock

Are decks not allowed to have threat density anymore? It's a common principal of the game, it you ban either Belcher or ETW you're stopping the nature of the game. When this happens is there even a reason to play if you're stopping a fundamental rule of the game?

emidln

06-17-2007, 10:07 PM

If combo like belcher had 8 belchers and 0 etw or 8etw and 0 belchers i think it would be fair but what they do is if you have counters they play etw adn if u have mass removal they pay belcher... u have to have counterspell and mass removal to have a good game vs them or be playing other disruption and a fast clock

You know, you could build your deck with Chalice of the Void, Pithing Needle, Pyroclasm and Rolling Earthquake if you wanted to beat a deck that quickly presents Belcher and Goblin tokens. In fact, I think someone already did that...

BreathWeapon

06-17-2007, 11:23 PM

Piracy Charm...will have very little impact against most Combo
Explosives...is actually somewhat too slow against Goblins
Needle...will do nothing against Tendrils/ETW Combo

Stifle is fine, however.

Most people just don't understand what these cards are for,

Piracy Charm can either remove a Xantid Swarm or ruin the Infernal Tutur->Ill Gotten Gains->Infernal Tutor->Tendrils of Agony loop against combo, and it remains in the graveyard after removing Xantid Swarm to deter the opponent from using the Infernal Tutor->Ill Gotten Gains->Infernal Tutor->Tendrils of Agony loop. Piracy Charm kills Goblin Lackey, and it "cycles" against anything.

Engineered Explosives removes Empty the Warrens. Engineered Explosives can remove a Goblin Lackey on the play, but it is generally used to remove Aether Vials.

Pithing Needle "counters" Goblin Charbelcher. Pithing Needle "counters" Aether Vial.

@GuyIdon'tknow

If Belcher had 8 Goblin Charbelchers or 8 Empty the Warrens it wouldn't be viable, it's not threat density, but threat diversification that makes the deck competitive. You can always counter the acceleration, so the fact that Empty the Warrens has storm is irrelevant, and if you SB in mass removal your more likely to auto-win against the deck because there are 4 Goblin CharBelchers and 7 Empty the Warrens. Smart players will know this and prefer to use Goblin Charbelcher or cast Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns in game two, but if Belcher didn't have these options, it wouldn't be fair, because opponent's could just SB in hate for one win condition and auto-win.

The best best is to counter the opponent's acceleration and use general disruption, like Unmask, Hymn to Tourach, Duress, Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Chalice of the Void, Null Rod, Root Maze and then use Stifle against either win condition or Orim's Chant to suppress their mana production and then use mass removal against Warrens and then use removal against Belcher.

The problem isn't combo, its the players that don't want to recognize combo as a healthy part of the metagame, refuse to prepare for combo, get their asses handed to them by combo and then complain about combo. Even tho' combo is very fast, as a result it's also very vulnerable, and the opponent can end the game against combo just as fast as combo can end the game against them.

Illissius

06-18-2007, 03:06 AM

I don't think the whole "distorts the metagame" line of discussion is fruitful here. As numerous people have pointed out numerous times, powerful cards in any format will distort the format around them. Wrath of God has a large effect on Standard. Should it be banned? Don't make me laugh. You only have a problem when the entire environment becomes focused around that single card or deck: valid examples of this have been Trix, Skullclamp, and Affinity. Legacy does not currently have this. There is no single card played across multiple decks which everyone has to either play themselves or devote their entire deck to hosing. Nor is there a single such deck: Goblins is certainly powerful, and is (or maybe was) the best deck in the format, but it's nowhere near Trix or Affinity. So this entire line of reasoning simply does not apply.

What it does make sense to discuss is the more subjective topic of power level. We have a fairly healthy metagame right now in Legacy, in terms of balance: Belcher/TES beats Goblins beats Threshold/Fish beats Belcher/TES, with many other viable decks also in the mix. On the other hand, you can hardly argue that it hasn't gotten faster since the earlier days of Solidarity and company. The question is, what level of power and speed do we want to have in the format? Is it acceptable to have decks either winning outright on the first or second turn, or vomiting a double digit number of Goblin tokens on the board in the same frame of time? This is a subjective issue than can only be decided personally, and so I personally answer: no. I think the previous state of the format was already a tad too powerful.

If we want to return to the format as it was, the recipe is simple:

ban Empty the Warrens

On the other hand, if I were God Almighty, the changes I instate would rather be the following:

ban Tendrils of Agony
ban Brain Freeze
ban Goblin Charbelcher
ban Goblin Lackey

(Elaborating on why, exactly, these, would be an article in itself and likely off topic, but to summarize briefly: the goal would be an environment, foremost, slower, composed of a variety of control decks, aggro decks which aren't necessarily Goblins, and combo decks which aren't necessarily Storm. Control might become too powerful, but I think Aether Vial is a good bulwark against that happening.)

There are certainly many Vintage triumphalists who claim that the current speed of the format is a good thing, an inevitable evolution, nay, the only rightful and proper direction for it to evolve in; that Legacy, by its very nature, shall get faster with the passage of time, shall have blue and black as its only respectable colors, that it shall become entirely alike to Vintage; and that this, indeed, is the only conceivable and only true form the final state of any Eternal format can take. This is true under one condition and one condition only: if the power level of a format is not sufficient grounds for the banning of cards in it. Now, the one and only criterium which Wizards has, across the years, consistently used as sufficient in itself for the banning of a card, was it not being fun, because fun is what keeps the players playing, and what keeps the money -- however much or little of it -- flowing. If players no longer find a format fun, or find it significantly less fun than it used to be, due to its power level, then that is a strong incentive to go out, take a good look around, and demolish something, or many things, with the Banhammer of Justice. The argument at this point is that Legacy does not belong to us, and this is partly true. Legacy belongs to two classes of people: those who do play it, and those who might. To use this as an argument against the banning of cards to slow the format down, one must show that the reason that those who might play the format, do not, is because it is too slow. Good luck with that.

Note: This post works off the assumption that the essence of the Legacy metagame going forward is, in fact, Belcher/TES beats Goblins beats Threshold/Fish beats Belcher/TES. There is some tournament evidence to support this, but not a huge amount. If it turns out differently, then some things, of course, may not apply. And if most players of Legacy prefer it in its faster state, then there is naturally also less incentive to consider banning anything.

Hummingbird TG

06-18-2007, 05:12 AM

You forgot to mention that Landstill beats Threshold/Fish and has quite a good match against combo too.

Illissius

06-18-2007, 06:27 AM

You forgot to mention that Landstill beats Threshold/Fish and has quite a good match against combo too.

Sigh. "with many other viable decks also in the mix". This wasn't meant to be an exhaustive analysis of the Legacy metagame. Did it seem that way?

Nightmare

06-18-2007, 09:56 AM

We literally just got rid of Flash. Actually, Wednesday we get rid of Flash. At the same time, we got 2 relatively harmless cards taken off the banned list. This is the single biggest change in Legacy's short history, and yet people are still griping about banning cards? What's wrong with you people? This format is perfect right now. Good combo decks have edged Solidarity out of the spotlight, and forced Goblins to change its game, making control viable again. Aggro-control is good as ever. Goblins isn't dominating, but still holds strong. Combo is fun, consistant, and not overpowered. What more can you ask for?

Ban Empty the Warrens... I swear, you guys always find something to bitch about. Brush the sand out of your vaginas and metagame. It isn't broken like Flash, it's broken like Force of Will. Run some answers already.

nightshade81

06-18-2007, 10:02 AM

It isn't broken like Flash, it's broken like Force of Will.
QFT

BreathWeapon

06-18-2007, 11:33 AM

@Illissius

Banning Empty the Warrens to decrease the speed of the format isn't even achieving its objective, because the format is going to have turn one wins as long as Goblin Charbelcher and Infernal Tutor are legal, and even then Wish + LED still has good odds of ending the game.

WOTC unbanned Lion's Eye Diamond, Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal for a reason, they had to have known that they'd contribute to the speed of combo in any format. All banning Empty the Warrens will do is weaken combo, which seems to be people's actual objective, and not reduce the speed of combo. If you want to legitimately reduce the speed of combo, you have to target the mana sources, because clearly WOTC has no qualms about printing new win conditions, but you can bet your ass you'll never see another Lion's Eye Diamond.

Regardless, nothing needs to be banned right now, control is playable and Goblins is a glass cannon, that's the sign of a healthy metagame to me.

Xero

06-18-2007, 02:42 PM

There is a fair number of big Legacy tournaments in the near future: GenCon, 2 Dual-land drafts, the Meandeck Open. Why can't we wait a few months to see if Combo is really dominant or broken before calling for bannings?

blacklotus3636

06-19-2007, 10:42 AM

Quote by kabal kun:
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacklotus3636
Almost all the same tools that is good against lackey is good against ETW.

Pinpoint creature removal is good against ETW? Wow. I've been missing out. Mass removal will effect both, but the problem is "Will you be able to cast your board clearer in time?"

Don`t you just love it when people pick one sentence out of an entire story, warp it to make it sound ridiculous, then turn around and act like your the jackass? I think everyone knew what I meant when I said that but some people like to pervert things to suit their own ends. If you really want to talk about what I wrote then why don`t you address the actual point I was making in the post? In short I made the argument that lackey and warrens are on the same power level. I think most reasonable people would concede on both sides that this is at least somewhat true. If you concede that this is true then why are you not lobbying for the banning of lackey? If you lobby for one cards banning and not the other that is on the same power level then your just trying to force the metagame to be what you want rather than what is healthy. I think everyone who is calling for the banning of warrens should take a long hard look at themselves and their motives for wanting to ban warrens.

matelml

06-19-2007, 12:16 PM

People want to ban Warrens instead of Lackey because they don't mind as much being beaten by a horde of normal goblins then by "combo" goblins. This is because combo decks seem to have less interaction with the opponent and you die instantaniously or (almost) inavoidably in the case of EtW. People don't think this is fun. So even though the power might be around the same level, they want to ban EtW instead of Lackey. I love combo so I don't agree, however I do think this is not a bad reason. Magic should be fun and that means cards should be banned if they are too good, because a diverse metagame is fun, but also I can see cards being considerd banning because of making "unfun" decks popular/good. I like playing combo but can see why a combodeck shouldn't be the best deck in the format because people don't like that.

Bahamuth

06-19-2007, 12:23 PM

While I agree that combo isn't anywhere near being overpowered, I do not agree that playing against combo always has to be boring. If you do have an answer, and if the combo player might have an answer to your answer, the game can still be very interesting and skill-dependant.

Berzerked

06-19-2007, 02:35 PM

Also, for all the people bitching about combo making the meta not fun, what exactly is your definition of fun?

Obviously winning is fun, but apparently losing isn't, because that's when you turn into sore losers.
I have fun playing Magic, whether I win or lose, and I have fun designing and teching decks made for not losing.
If you only have fun when you're rolling your opponent, or it's a really close game, then go play casual. Or is that not competitive enough?

Sims

06-19-2007, 02:47 PM

I'm not calling for ETW being banned, but I do want it and the combo pieces watched.... we know combo can suddenly find 1 card and then just be absolutely broken. I don't think combo is busted now, but I think an eye needs to be kept on it, as if that catalyst is found something will need to be done.

As for reasons why people don't like ETW but don't mind Lackey:

Most people don't mind running Swords to Plowshares, because spot removal is rarely dead.... People do, however, not like having to run cards like Sandstorm to stop 8-10+ Goblin tokens on turn 1.

TheDarkshineKnight

06-19-2007, 03:27 PM

revenge_inc

06-20-2007, 05:28 PM

Can somebody link me to the SI thread please.
I have searched the forums and failed to find the thread on this particular combo deck. (probably cauz I'm a fucking idiot)

emidln

06-20-2007, 07:04 PM

Can somebody link me to the SI thread please.
I have searched the forums and failed to find the thread on this particular combo deck. (probably cauz I'm a fucking idiot)

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=58807&page=6

I would highly recommend looking at the 2nd to last post in the thread. I probably wouldn't play anything except very close deviations of those lists right now.

revenge_inc

06-20-2007, 08:56 PM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=58807&page=6

I would highly recommend looking at the 2nd to last post in the thread. I probably wouldn't play anything except very close deviations of those lists right now.

Thanks for the link. (I only read Salvation for debates and water cooler talk....I was like WTF people innovate the Legacy format there?-lol)

The second-last post and the first one were very useful.

If this deck is as powerful as it seems to be on paper and is in fact a viable fast-storm-combo option, why isn't this deck on The Source?

emidln

06-20-2007, 09:08 PM

Thanks for the link. (I only read Salvation for debates and water cooler talk....I was like WTF people innovate the Legacy format there?-lol)

The second-last post and the first one were very useful.

If this deck is as powerful as it seems to be on paper and is in fact a viable fast-storm-combo option, why isn't this deck on The Source?

I honestly didn't really like the source when I posted it there. I do most of my development over AIM/Blitzkrieg boards anyway, so discussion on these boards is more spreading information than anything.

06-21-2007, 12:49 AM

If this deck is as powerful as it seems to be on paper and is in fact a viable fast-storm-combo option, why isn't this deck on The Source?

There was a thread on here for the deck a while back, but for some reason I can't find it while doing a search on the deck. It's possible the name was different or something though, idk. Regardless, it seems to be the least-talked about combo deck because it is fundamentally worse than the others. The deck runs 8 dead cards (0cc creatures), which make those draw4's worse. It also happens to make those other creature dependent cards (Culling the Weak, Diabolic Intent if it's still run) very conditional. The deck isn't as consistent as TES or Belcher, and has a tougher time with control matchups, so it's difficult to believe why someone would run SI over one of those aforementioned combo decks.

Jak

06-21-2007, 02:06 AM

I happen to think it could be a great combo. I mean, I hate the creatures and culling the weak, but a TES like build with draw 4s could be powerful. MAybe 3 colors. I think I will start a thread. Maybe.

BreathWeapon

06-21-2007, 02:20 AM

There's nothing wrong with Draw 4 based combo, I think the basic problem with SI is that it screws around with 0cc creatures and Culling The Weak when it should just be adding tutors to find more acceleration or cantrips to build Threshold and slow down a turn. The real advantage of Draw 4s isn't their speed, it's being able to cast them against a counter wall and not lose.

andrew77

06-21-2007, 03:39 AM

Actually most of you are wrong about SI. It is extremely consistant and extremely fast. Some versions kill, yes i said kill not combo to make goblins, turn one like 70 percent of the time. The reason people don't play SI is because it is a glass cannon like dredge. It might be nuts if you don't have hate, but any piece of hate and you lose. SI cannot win through chalice at 0 or trinishpere and has a lot more trouble beating a meddlingmage, pillar, or stifle than TES would.

BTW if you want to hose goblins play SI. I don't think it can even lose a game against goblins unless they get a chalice. Even then you can sit abck behind your creatures and just let chalice counter your 0 drops and tendrils for like 5 twice.

matelml

06-21-2007, 05:26 AM

SI cannot win through chalice at 0.
(...)
Even then you can sit abck behind your creatures and just let chalice counter your 0 drops and tendrils for like 5 twice.

I believe there is a pretty big chance goblins has chalice in hand if they know what they are playing against game 2 and wouldn't the creatures you want to block with be countered by chalice? I don't think game 2 and 3 are going to be so easy with chalice, waste and port to slow you down and a fast clock next to it. I believe it's not a real bad matchup, but you can lose to goblins.

Some versions kill, yes i said kill not combo to make goblins, turn one like 70 percent of the time.

Maybe you are right but I have a hard time believing this. I mean, to kill on turn 1 you would probably need a dark ritual, a LED or more rituals, a draw4 but not too many and a manasource. I am sure you can come up with other hands that can win right away but the chances of having such a hand seem less than 70% even with taking mulligans to me. Can anybody confirm this? And has the deck put up any results?

Pale Moon FTW

06-21-2007, 08:14 AM

SI is the fastest deck in the format. I have goldfished it a little and it really does have almost 70% chance of winning turn 1. The problem is that FoW happens to be in the format. The deck runs absolutely no protection and can't play around it. If your draw4 is countered, you fizzle end of story. Of course you can try again later but then you have to worry about Stifle too (you'll have to do that when on the draw too of course) and Stifle tendrils is just GG because you'll often be on 5 or 4 life from your draw4s.
It's a glasscannon deck designed for a controlless meta but ATM no such meta exists anywhere (I really doubt that). But it is pretty logical that the fastest deck in the format is a glass cannon.

emidln

06-21-2007, 10:03 AM

First off, the Tall Men are not dead cards. They are setup (blockers) that can be used to fuel an efficient ritual effect. They allow devastating plays in the form of flashbacked Cabal Therapies. Additionally, they are storm when you go off.

Second, SI, in its current forms, is less vulnerable to Force of Will than Belcher, TES, or Iggy Pop. There are two distinct variations of SI now (a line of decks named Sites and Sir Speedy (nicknames to differentiate them when I talk about the lists) as well as a line of decks under the QSI designation), and both have certain strengths and weaknesses. The Sites/Sir Speedy lists use ETW heavily mainboard, allowing the same low storm kills and baiting used in Belcher and TES, accelerated by 8 draw4s and more ritual effects. The QSI lists are still in the middle of evolution, but have currently cut LED and Infernal Tutor.

Let me explain that last part before those of you who don't actually play combo scream at me that LED is the best card in the deck. LED has a really dirty secret and it's one that will probably catch you offguard. It's really good in combo, but only in tutor-based combo. SI is decidedly not tutor-based, as you attempt to win by creating card advantage and then blowing out an opponent with spells, countermagic or not. In traditional SI builds (the 4 Land Grant/2 Bayou builds), LED was _okay_ but not really anything special. It enabled Infernal Tutor and sometimes helped with IGG. It also would randomly lose you the game against aggro, and no-so-randomly (rather consistently if I remember right) fuck you against any form of control.

Now, fast forward to this year and I'm thinking about all the different things I've tried in draw4-based combo that gives control a hard time. They don't like a high density of draw spells from a storm deck. (check) They had especially hard times against instant-speed draw. (check) Cabal Therapy was as ass-whoppin (check). I had to find some cards to cut from my then-current list, so I evaluated what everything actually did for me. I was suprised to find out that LED pretty much did nothing, the same as Infernal Tutor, which was in the same boat as IGG. Every time I had Infernal Tutor, I would almost universally rather it be a draw4 or a win condition and not cost me an extra 1B. I cut those cards and added in Brainstorms, Meditates, Cabal Therapies, and Lands to help smooth out the manabase, main brainstorm more efficient, and be better able to use draw4s as a setup spell instead of an all-in "win now or lose" spell.

It is this combination of Brainstorm, Meditate, and Cabal Therapy, in addition to the regular suite of 8 draw4s that yields the threat density necessary to mow down control with Force of Will. Now, while SI can still turn 1, you will often dark rit into a draw4 or brainstorm before passing. This is something that SI had a much harder time with before because of a lower density of draw spells and a huge reliance on Lotus Petal as an initial mana source. Now, we can start and stop as needed with 9 lands and 4 chrome moxen in addition to our petals.

Having solved these problems and confirmed the results through testing against Gro, Threshold, Fish, and Landstill, I'm faced with a few remaining problems before I run this at Gencon. I need to re-examine the black-aggro matchup, possibly addressing it with Mystical Tutors and IGG in the sideboard. I need to statistically analyze and decide on maindeck threat density. I need to finish the sideboard plans against artifact hate.

andrew77

06-21-2007, 10:10 AM

I believe there is a pretty big chance goblins has chalice in hand if they know what they are playing against game 2 and wouldn't the creatures you want to block with be countered by chalice? I don't think game 2 and 3 are going to be so easy with chalice, waste and port to slow you down and a fast clock next to it. I believe it's not a real bad matchup, but you can lose to goblins.

Maybe you are right but I have a hard time believing this. I mean, to kill on turn 1 you would probably need a dark ritual, a LED or more rituals, a draw4 but not too many and a manasource. I am sure you can come up with other hands that can win right away but the chances of having such a hand seem less than 70% even with taking mulligans to me. Can anybody confirm this? And has the deck put up any results?

You really dont need much. All you need is a draw 4 and LED, dark rit, culling. Also it's proabbly just that my legacy metgame is really screwed up, but for a time there would be like 6 goblin decks, 1 SI deck, 1 angelstompy deck and me with TES. I can't recall ever seeing SI lose to goblins. The chalice trick i talked about is really unlikely and can only be done against a deck which you can stall out against like goblins. Against almost anything else chalice at 0 is an autoloss.

Also SI is not less vurnelable to fow than TES. TES plays so many things that beat fow and stifle. Xantid swarm and empty the warrens being examples. It is also much harder to know what to force against TES than against SI. Against a monoblack SI forcing a draw 4 shuts them down, but against TES you don't know if you should force that third or fourth spell to keep them off warrens mana or if you should wait to force the tutor.

emidln

06-21-2007, 10:58 AM

You really dont need much. All you need is a draw 4 and LED, dark rit, culling. Also it's proabbly just that my legacy metgame is really screwed up, but for a time there would be like 6 goblin decks, 1 SI deck, 1 angelstompy deck and me with TES. I can't recall ever seeing SI lose to goblins. The chalice trick i talked about is really unlikely and can only be done against a deck which you can stall out against like goblins. Against almost anything else chalice at 0 is an autoloss.

Also SI is not less vurnelable to fow than TES. TES plays so many things that beat fow and stifle. Xantid swarm and empty the warrens being examples. It is also much harder to know what to force against TES than against SI. Against a monoblack SI forcing a draw 4 shuts them down, but against TES you don't know if you should force that third or fourth spell to keep them off warrens mana or if you should wait to force the tutor.

SI also plays ETW, Cabal Therapy and up to 12 draw4s. SI players choose to deal with Force through ETW, Therapy, or playing right through it. Please know what you're talking about before posting, this includes reading the entire post above. Also note that SI is NEVER monoblack.

matelml

06-21-2007, 11:24 AM

You really dont need much. All you need is a draw 4 and LED, dark rit, culling.

So you believe to have a 70% chance to have all that in your opening hand? And you don't also need a land or lotus petal?

The chalice trick i talked about is really unlikely and can only be done against a deck which you can stall out against like goblins. Against almost anything else chalice at 0 is an autoloss.

How are you going to stall goblins if they have a Chalice for 0? Wouldn't that counter your blockers?

@emidln: Could you post your list of SI so I can see why it would be less vulnerable to FoW than TES, Belcher and Iggy pop? Or if it's not the right thread for it send me a PM?

emidln

06-21-2007, 11:46 AM

So you believe to have a 70% chance to have all that in your opening hand? And you don't also need a land or lotus petal?

How are you going to stall goblins if they have a Chalice for 0? Wouldn't that counter your blockers?

@emidln: Could you post your list of SI so I can see why it would be less vulnerable to FoW than TES, Belcher and Iggy pop? Or if it's not the right thread for it send me a PM?

I posted a link to it on the last page. I'll write up some card choices and such and put it on the source later today.

Tacosnape

06-21-2007, 01:15 PM

So Scones don't beat anything but lose to Time? And Tax Rebates don't lose to ANYTHING?

Scones beat Tax Rebates. Duh.

jazzykat

06-21-2007, 01:21 PM

I have to confess my metagame is never very challenging. However from briefly reading this and having played the game for 13 years, I have a point or two:

So there may be a time coming when there are a variety of combo decks and anti-combo decks right? To me that makes it ripe for the anti-anti combo decks. Depending on matchups and all.

Besides, everyone was bitching when aggro (goblins) was dominating making pure control dead. So now there are really good combo decks that make pure control at least not a retarded choice. Good, great in fact. Maybe force spike will be a good card?

Oh and if anyone brings up Flash in the same sentence as one of these other decks they need to seriously evaluate their understanding of MTG.

Flash: 2 mana +1 instant+ 1 creature. Add to that: disruption + zero cost tutors and counterspells and compact kill condition. Oh, and it won at instant speed...

All other combo decks are not nearly this elegant or resilient. If empty the warrens is so unbeatable then I will randomly play sandstorms (Oh, and its a first turn answer to lackey on the play as well!) in my board... It is a hell of a lot different to face either glass cannons, decks that rely on creatures to kill you (even if it makes a lot of them on turn 1), or decks that go off between turns 2-4, than a deck that kills on turns 0-2.

The big difference being with Flash you had no chance to play the game sometimes. You just lost, you couldn't rip a wonder card. In fact you may not have even gotten to draw a card!

With these other decks the fundamental turn may be decreased but at least you have a chance to do something about it most of the time. Oh and these decks can fizzle.

With Flash the fundamental turn was definitely dropped and even if your combo was disrupted (You can't really considering casting an instant with a specific creature in your hand fizzling can you?) You can just go tutor it up again in a turn or two. How many of these decks recover from a stifle like flash (if it just didn't counter it) did?

Guy I Don't Know

06-21-2007, 11:08 PM

The problem isn't combo, its the players that don't want to recognize combo as a healthy part of the metagame, refuse to prepare for combo, get their asses handed to them by combo and then complain about combo. Even tho' combo is very fast, as a result it's also very vulnerable, and the opponent can end the game against combo just as fast as combo can end the game against them.

First of all, I don't think combo that can win on turn 1-2 on the play and turn 1 on the draw is fair or healthy for the legacy format. I've been playing this format since who knows when... when goblins didn't have siege-gang commander and when people played with oath of druids. There weren't 1-2 wins except with maybe dragon but almost no one had those cards so it wasnt a big deal. There was Goblin Charbelcher decks but they didn't have etw the warrens so with proper hate you could win about half the time. Now... even with a 15 card sideboard to try to win against combo that is as fast as belcher, its about impossible. I have to change decks... "people don't like shifts in the format" people say but it is more I don't like this shift in the format... It comes down to play Belcher, play blue and be able to beat belcher, or lose to belcher. I'm now playing belcher and it's just not fun to play legacy anymore... Its kinda like the card game war, except you reveal 2-3 cards, see who as the highest card and he wins. I rather have a format that has more interaction and skill but thats just me. I am personally moving away from legacy until it comes something more interesting and the games take longer than shuffling.

Berzerked

06-21-2007, 11:35 PM

I rather have a format that has more interaction and skill but thats just me. I am personally moving away from legacy until it comes something more interesting and the games take longer than shuffling.

Wow...if you're having THAT much trouble, then maybe your skill is the problem.

Yes, some games you will lose to a Belcher before you can draw, it happens. To be honest, though, I've lost more games to Goblins a few turns in - with hate sitting in my hand - than I've lost to turn1 Belchers. A few cheap cards (Pithing Needle, Stifle, FoW, Daze, EE), which are not narrow at all, and some decent decision making, and the game is yours...so I don't know what the huge deal is.
Thresh even main decks all of those.

HPC

06-22-2007, 12:02 AM

Berzerked

06-22-2007, 12:25 AM

Unlike Tendrils where you're given a chance to counter draw-4s or Ill-gains; EtW puts you in the awkward position of countering mana acceleration instead of a business spell.

So what, now decision making isn't part of Magic?

noobslayer

06-22-2007, 12:47 AM

I see Paul's UGr build being some good if combo becomes more than half the field. Maindecked stifle may end up being the new trend.

@HPC: Pipboy avatar for the win. Fallout forever.

BreathWeapon

06-22-2007, 02:35 AM

Combo is fine when it follows the rules of the game. Most people don't have a problem dying to Tendrils of Agony because a lethal storm count requires more spells being played than you have in your hand. Belcher at least is a permanent with a 7 mana expenditure and three mana activation cost that can be countered, needled, or chanted.

EtW doesn't follow any of these rules. A game can pretty reliably be won by just casting mana acceleration into a EtW. Unlike Tendrils where you're given a chance to counter draw-4s or Ill-gains; EtW puts you in the awkward position of countering mana acceleration instead of a business spell.

Trying to find a solution that fits into your deck that can defend against both creatures and direct damage in the form of Belcher or Tendrils is another matter. Threat diversity is good, but EtW fits into practically every combo deck with a heavy mana accel strategy and it gives the combo player a second angle of attack -- a completely different combo that they don't have to expend any different resources to acquire. And what about response diversity? Only CotV @1, 3sphere and Sphere of Resistance are effective at stopping the entirety of these decks. You can conditionally add Stifle (non-Belcher) and Meddling Mage to the list of useful response cards.

Combo has gotten much better, but EtW is the only reason we might be seeing a combo summer. It's overpowered because it uses its mana accel spells as double duty, storm protects itself against counterspells (practically eliminating the need for disruption) and can go off with an absurdly low storm count.

Stifle is a significant counter against Goblin Charblecher, because it requires the Combo pilot to top deck deck 3 more mana sources in a deck where more than 1/2 of those cards are non mana sources (11 Threats, Dead Land Grants, Dead Chrome Mox, Dead Seething Songs and up to 8 other wild cards that may be dead) while a Tarmogoyf is being pumped up off of all of the card types in your graveyard and the Threshold player is drawing/cantripping into more disruption.

People are really over exaggerating how good Belcher is.

Combo has just gotten to the point where its competitive and people are freaking out over it. Now traditional aggro is a glass cannon, and if it wants to compete in a three tiered metagame it's going to have to start interacting with combo. R/g/w + artifacts have a ton of cards to fight back with, people just need to get off their ass and starting designing aggro decks with out 50% plus of one creature type in it.

Honestly, combo is looking like the healthiest thing to hit this format in years, good bye Goblin Lackey.

jazzykat

06-22-2007, 02:56 AM

BreathWeapon

06-22-2007, 03:28 AM

Shit, maybe 5/3 will be awesome for the new metagame and how aggro is that!

3sphere, and chalice MD along with the ability to power them out on the first and second turns is pretty good. Also if you are really worried about combo then put sphere of resistance in the board.

I guess what I am getting at is the decks we are going to play are going to change, lets embrace it and see how good combo can really be when we have a diverse set of tools to beat them. Remember, while EtW may not require an "all in" comittment most combo decks do require that to either get their storm count up to 9 or 10, or to get 7 mana. This takes a lot of cards and if you can stop the initial attempt you probably have won the game (effectively swinging enough tempo your way).

Most decks do go all in on ETW to get a storm count of 5 for 10 tokens and those that don't are pacing themselves against aggro-control with a storm count of 3 for 6 tokens. Storm count 4 for 8 tokens happens, but it's a bad idea against Goblins. Regardless, even if ETW only takes up three cards, removing the tokens is as good as an Ancestral Recall, and it only gets better from there.

As soon as combo summer hits, I guarantee red based aggro-prison is going to go ape shit on this format.

Peter_Rotten

06-22-2007, 09:41 AM

Hi-Val has written an excellent (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14359.html) article about the Belcher/Fish match. I recommend you read it.

One interesting point he raises, is the possibility of running T-goyf in the Belcher board.

jamest

06-22-2007, 11:26 AM

As soon as combo summer hits, I guarantee red based aggro-prison is going to go ape shit on this format.
Why not blue based aggro prison (like Faerie Stompy)?

Whit3 Ghost

06-22-2007, 11:35 AM

Why not blue based aggro prison (like Faerie Stompy)?
No Pyroclasm, less tools against Blue Based Control.

jazzykat

06-22-2007, 12:57 PM

The best tools against blue based control are brown. They are Defense Grid and smokestack :B

Whit3 Ghost

06-22-2007, 01:04 PM

Not to de-rail the thread, but Red gives you Goblin Welder and Boil, both of which wreck blue based control. Also, you're missing Uba Mask on your list of hosers.

Iranon

06-22-2007, 02:28 PM

To those who wondered, links to the SI thread proper (not very helpful) and a thread containing quite a bit discussion of SI although it was created by yours truly as a comparative analysis of fast combo.

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4246

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5538

I have followed the evolution of the deck with interest and tried to develop more resilent versions myself. When all is said and done, I personally still favour the old one running Belcher as a secondary kill. SI is immensely tweakable; while I'd say no version is as resilent across the board as TES, there is little short of taxing effects or double chalice on turn 1 that reliably kills all versions of the deck.

The turn-1-percentages depend on whether it's a theoretical exercise or actual gameplay. Doing everything to score a turn 1 win (aggressive mulliganing, attempting to go off immediately even when I had a guaranteed turn 2) I succeeded approximately 60% of the time.
I was surprised to hear that this can be increased to 70% (unless they were drawing every game, in which case their results come close to my own), but I didn't really practice pushing the deck past its limits so I'm not doubting the results of people who did.
Following from that, I fully expect a list with EtW to combo out turn 1 in the vicinity of 80% if pushed.

Something I consider more relevant: Playing very conservatively, 100 games on the play and on the draw each, I managed to kill by turn 4 93% of the time, 44% on turn 1. If we assume we are drawing first every game (not entirely unreasonable), results were 95% by turn 4, 54% on turn 1. his combination of speed and consistency is, to my knowledge, unmatched by any other deck.

Nightmare

06-22-2007, 02:43 PM

While we're talking SI,

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3042

[developed by] Robert Vroman and others on Ogre's Message Boards in the late Winter/early Spring of 2006. I remember playing against an early version with Flame Vault Stasis Stax on the side of a Vintage tourney at some Anime Convention that March/April.

Just sayin'.

emidln

06-22-2007, 04:04 PM

While we're talking SI,

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3042

Just sayin'.

Vroman had the first version that was close to what I had in the primer. If I remember right, he said he based his version on the KI.TT Vintage deck. It was the first version that I've seen that had the 14 free mana (actually, 15 if I remember right), 16 ritual effect shell that was played in the future. I'd imagine that someone actually had it before January 2006.

emidln

06-22-2007, 04:06 PM

The best tools against blue based control are brown. They are Defense Grid and smokestack :B

Defense Grid is fucking awful. Red Gives you Goblin Welder and Boil. The best brown cards to beat control are Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, Smokestack, Uba Mask, Crucible of Worlds, Pithing Needle, and Tangle Wire.

jazzykat

06-22-2007, 04:16 PM

Defense Grid is fucking awful. Red Gives you Goblin Welder and Boil. The best brown cards to beat control are Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, Smokestack, Uba Mask, Crucible of Worlds, Pithing Needle, and Tangle Wire.

I was being a bit fecicious and I agree with you about everything but your defense grid comment. Defense grid effectively makes every counterspell they play cost 3 or more with little to no drawback to yourself when playing stax or a tubby deck.

BreathWeapon

06-22-2007, 04:18 PM

Why not blue based aggro prison (like Faerie Stompy)?

You have to deal with Landstill, which Faerie Stompy and AfFOWnity don't care for, besides Force of Will classifies both decks as a form of control and the point was that decks with out Force of Will can compete against combo.

Whit3 Ghost

06-22-2007, 06:23 PM

I was being a bit fecicious and I agree with you about everything but your defense grid comment. Defense grid effectively makes every counterspell they play cost 3 or more with little to no drawback to yourself when playing stax or a tubby deck.
The thing is, it does nothing against them casting any of the following cards
Pernicious Deed
Akroma's Vengence
Meltdown
Shattering Spree
Rebuild
Hurkly's Recall
Serenity
Nev's Disk
Every other anti-artifact card that absolutely wrecks you.

jazzykat

06-23-2007, 12:29 PM

The thing is, it does nothing against them casting any of the following cards
Pernicious Deed
Akroma's Vengence
Meltdown
Shattering Spree
Rebuild
Hurkly's Recall
Serenity
Nev's Disk
Every other anti-artifact card that absolutely wrecks you.

I agree.

I like defense grid because it basically makes their counterspells dead. However, I didn't consider that something like serenity which only costs 2 mana makes my whole deck dead.

I guess the speed of the deck would dictate if defense grid even made remote sense. I mean with a tubby build it might because they die in short order and you just need to buy time and force something onto the board that kills them and race them finding an answer (because they aren't countering anything for a long time) In stax it is probably crap.

HPC

07-02-2007, 03:10 PM

So what, now decision making isn't part of Magic?

My point was that EtW breaks with how all cards before it are played, pumped and reacted to. I like combo. Let's see how it affects the format. But I think in the end EtW will need to be banned because it challenges too many of the format's answers. The format will contain EtW decks, decks that beat EtW decks by using specific hosers like EE or Stifle, and decks that ignore EtW decks. The decks that ignore EtW decks will be able to use more efficient spot removal and beat decks that beat EtW decks and the format will be warped.

If you like choices we should unban Balance. It gives you LOTS of opportunity to make decissions and is a great reply to EtW and aggro. Seems about as fair. At least it can be counterspelled and for it to be broken you need to overextend just like EtW. QED.

emidln

07-02-2007, 04:03 PM

BreathWeapon

07-02-2007, 04:20 PM

My point was that EtW breaks with how all cards before it are played, pumped and reacted to. I like combo. Let's see how it affects the format. But I think in the end EtW will need to be banned because it challenges too many of the format's answers. The format will contain EtW decks, decks that beat EtW decks by using specific hosers like EE or Stifle, and decks that ignore EtW decks. The decks that ignore EtW decks will be able to use more efficient spot removal and beat decks that beat EtW decks and the format will be warped.

If you like choices we should unban Balance. It gives you LOTS of opportunity to make decissions and is a great reply to EtW and aggro. Seems about as fair. At least it can be counterspelled and for it to be broken you need to overextend just like EtW. QED.

Look, Empty the Warrens has a clear affect on the metagame, Stifle becomes the third best counter spell in aggro-control, Pyroclasm replaces Swords to Plowshares as the removal spell in aggro-control and between Stifle, Pyroclasm, Tarmogoyf and a Red SB aggro-control is in a better position against Goblins, combo and control than it ever was before.

All Empty the Warrens is really doing is preventing opponents from GGing combo with a single Force of Will, which means combo is a legitimate part of the metagame (finally) Goblins is a glass cannon, control can come out of hiding, Stompy decks get a chance to be developed, Zoo can look at Martyr of Ashes, Tin Street Holligan, True Believer, Glowrider, Root Maze and Pyrostatic Pillar to survive, regular Affinity with MD Chalice of the Void is sensible, people will pick up on Bomberman in Legacy like they did in Vintage, all while the format shift around Empty the Warrens encourages storm combo to look at other options.

Really, the format has never been better, people just need to go out and make something of it.

Cabal-kun

07-02-2007, 05:25 PM

...control can come out of hiding...

Will control be fast enough to handle EtW?

HPC

07-02-2007, 05:44 PM

Empty the Warrens has a clear affect on the metagame, Stifle becomes the third best counter spell in aggro-control, Pyroclasm replaces Swords to Plowshares as the removal spell in aggro-control and between Stifle, Pyroclasm, Tarmogoyf and a Red SB aggro-control is in a better position against Goblins, combo and control than it ever was before.

So it will happen just like I said. EtW be in the most powerful decks because it's easy to cast and hard to dismantle. Pyroclasm doesn't kill Goyf like StP does and EE is expensive so Anti-EtW decks will have to choose less generalized cards to defeat EtW and decks that choose to ignore EtW will beat anti-EtW decks because they will have more potent removal and counter. Barros realized this when he decided to put in Spell Snare instead of Stifle in UGw Thresh -- even though Stifle is the "third best counter" he decided to create a more generalized Thresh.

All Empty the Warrens is really doing is preventing opponents from GGing combo with a single Force of Will, which means combo is a legitimate part of the metagame (finally)

Yes. Empty the Warrens protects itself, which also means that EtW combo can totally ignore having anything but acceleration and business spells in hand. Gone are the days when combo needs to worry about playing hand disruption. There's something wrong with that. It's akin to an aggro deck not worrying about mass removal. We'll see how this affects the format.

Balance would polarize the format. You would have a choice of W/x Stax and decks playing Serenity (likely Fish/EBA/Deadguy) since that's the only reliable hate card against Stax (as long as the Stax build is designed with hate in mind).

Balance doesn't require overextension, it requires Stax to play normally. As per normal, they run out threats as fast as possible, and Balance rewards their lack of card draw and suicidal manabase (City of Traitors/Crystal Vein/Gemstone Mine).

That's exactly why I compared Balance to EtW. You don't have to overextend much to play EtW (3 accel spells and EtW for a 3 turn clock) and Balance is "full of choices," which is just what the parent poster was saying he liked. I was being sarcastic about actually unbanning Balance; however, I think there are parallels between how EtW allows a combo player to "just play normally" by just worrying about accelerating into their combo and how Balance would play. Although if we unbanned Balance White would probably not be the worst color anymore and "the meta would just shift to deal with it...." right?

BreathWeapon

07-02-2007, 07:05 PM

No, if using Clasm concedes ground in the aggro-control mirror then aggro-control can use Explosives also/instead or MD/SB Grunts to pick up the slack. There is no such thing as anti-Warrens and ignore-Warrens, there's just decks with answers to Warrens that are superior against Goblins and decks with answers to Warrens that are superior against aggro-control.

Also no, getting acceleration countered isn't as good as disrupting the opponent and then casting the acceleration, a single Force of Will eliminates at least 2 pieces of acceleration in Belcher, at which point Belcher goes into top deck mode while the opponent casts Tarmogoyf and cantrips for more disruption. Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual and Culling the Weak are "must counters" in a vacuum, but if the opponent has an answer to Empty the Warrens he will allow them to resolve and then remove Empty the Warrens or counter the threat. Counter Spells are still detrimental to combo, so combo is going to use Duress, Cabal Therapy, Unmask, Xantid Swarm, Orim's Chant, Red Elemental Blast or Pyro Blast* to clear a path and then resolve a threat if it can, but if it can't the game isn't over. Speed doesn't replace the need for disruption in combo, it reduces the need for disruption in combo, and there's a fine difference between those two points.

*Warrens and Blasts do have an interesting interaction with each other, because the opponent is forced to counter the third mana before he sees Lion's Eye Diamond, which gives Blasts the ability to protect tutor + Lion's Eye Diamond against counters.

Countering the acceleration isn't new in Magic, it's new in Legacy, people have been countering the acceleration in Extended against Mind's Desire for years.

You can't compare Warrens across decks, in TES or SI, Warrens can be cast fo six against aggro-control to do damage that decreases the storm count for a Tendrils of Agony, but the opponent will stabilize against the Warrens with a single creature and there is a schance that he will be in a position to prevent you from reaching a Tendrils with 3 less cards in your hand or play an answer to Warrens and leave you with 3 less cards in your hand for nothing, in Belcher, Warrens is a win condition and not a segway into Tendrils, in other combo, Warrens is just a 1x alternate kill condition when the mana or storm falls short for Tendrils.

There is no parallel between Warrens and Balance, that notion is so inane it defies logic, no one can alternate their removal and be prepared for Balance. Wrath of God, Armageddon and Mind Twist in a single card in a single deck that focuses on Artifacts and Enchantments is just a "tad" more distorting than neo-Snake Basket.dec

@Cabal-Kun

If it wants to be, there's no reason control has to use Pernicious Deed and Engineered Plague over Engineered Explosives or Powder Keg and Sandstorm and Echoing Decay are suplimental spot removal/mass removal for the format.