[Deck] Armageddon Stax [Archive] - Page 10

Aleksandr

04-17-2010, 01:51 AM

Going second with Armastax on friday's Legacy. Additional info coming soon.

EDIT:

There were 19 people on yesterdays Legacy tournament. Prize pool: Tundra, italian Bayou, Demonic Tutor

I played Armageddon Stax with maindeck Bottled Cloister + Ensnaring Bridge for card draw and pseudo lock. There is some reanimator and dredge with Iona, also NO-Prog.dec, so I find the monobrownishness of the combo to be serious advantage over Ghostly Prison; about NO-Prog, there is obvious that opponent can pay two mana twice to kill me, but there is no way to force me to draw ten cards. I'd rather use Humility + Moat, no questions about, but as long as I don't have those cards, here I go with Cloister lock.
I don't fear getting Mind Twisted by Grip/Pridemage->Cloister, because when this happens, it means that Cloister (and not Trinisphere, Chalice, Prison, etc.) was the most serious troublemaker for my opponent and if such is a case, than there is something terribly wrong and I lose no matter what.

Decklist looks as follows, and it is a result of some MWS testing and dozens tournaments games in past weeks, mainly but not exclusively with Metalworker Stax, monowhite AngelStax, some weird UW builds with MD Pendrell Mists, Elspeth and/or Terezet decks, Rich_Man's_Stax_is_a_Rich_Man's_Solution.Stax, etc.

Bridge Over The Troubled Water

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Mishra's Factory
5 Plains
1 Savannah
4 Wasteland

2 Exalted Angel
2 Magus of the Tabernacle

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
2 Bottled Cloister
3 Smokestack

3 Ghostly Prison
2 Oblivion Ring

3 Armageddon

SB:
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Trinisphere
2 Lodestone Golem
3 Aura of Silence
2 Choke
1 Oblivion Ring

I hope that the numbers are correct.

I didn't play some cards mainly due to fiscal reasons. But in fact I found the Exalted Angel more appealling than the Baneslayer one, because it is faster, gets over Bridge easier, is non-white, tricks with morph*, has nicer frame and I own her.
Bridge + Angel is a nombo, I know that, but as long as Bridge stops Iona/Prog/Leviathan/anything, I don't care.
Anything else is pretty self-obvious, I just want to put fourth Ghostly Prison somewhere in my 75, but as it looks now, I can only take out CoW/land from my main, which I am not comfortable with, while SB is tweaked to its best.
I lack Oblivion Ring from time to time, so one more main would be appreciated, but see Ghostly Prison arguments. Same for additional Cloister.

Needles and Auras are against Stax's nightmare card - Pernicious Deed. But I am willing to side them more often, because it eats Vials, Crucibles, Moxen and makes the AnT mu a bit more favorable.
Choke >>> Islands and we play blue format, AFAIK.
Golem >>> Thresh, AnT, and I also take them in when I need to speed up my clock in case I lost G1.

Round 1, Ondra, monoR.dec

g1: Opponent played some suboptimal GoblinSligh build and he lost to fast Angel.
g2: Phailing to pay the upkeep for Magus cost me this game. This happened mainly due to the distraction caused by surrounders, but in no way I can blame anyone else than me, cause I gotta pay the attention. Otoh, I don't think this happens to me anymore, as long as I finally started to put the upkeeep lands under the Magus. Btw, this game was pretty funny (at least until the moment I forgot to pay the mana), because both me and my opponent had painlands out (Barb. Rings, resp. Tombs+Canopy), so we dealt like ten damage to oursleves. I stabilized under Thorn of Ametyst, but even though I Wasted away his lands, he drawn another ones and killed me with some absurd luck, even though I had some outs.
g1: Opponent played some suboptimal GoblinSligh build and he lost to fast Angel.

Round 2, Marek, Elves

g1: I locked the game with CotV@1 and started some pressure in the air, but without additional stuff I was unable to do anything significant, when Marek destroyed the Chalice with Zealot and went mad with Glimpse of Nature.
g2: Thankfully the Chalices showed in great numbers, less thankfully same happened to Zealots, but with Trinisphere. Golem, Tabernacle Mage and a few misplays on the other side of table, I gloriously won.
g3: Mull to five was in no way helping to Marek's cause and Land Grant showed me that he has not only zero solutions for the CotV@1, but he also lacked second land for the Priest of T. Time was called right when I layed the Magus, but without any reasonable clock I was unable to seal the deal.

Round 3, Albert, Dredge

g1: I kept crappy hand without any accelleration but it had Bridge + Cloister. I wasted his sole land to slow him down, which helped a lot (not that it would be that wise, had he had another land + BT/Study), but I must tried it. He DDD a bit, get me to eleven and than lost to Bottled Bridge combo.
g2: I opened not that bad hand with double Gh. Prison, but flashbacked Therapy (blind name Bridge, sac the Tribe for Prisons) ended my hopes. At least I get the Sphere, so I was save of Therapy/combo for the moment, but I had nothing else than Cloister. I played it, was beaten down to two and then in my upkeep I get the Bridge from Cloister. I played it, passed the turn and hoped for another outs. Right now I was on the better side of Trinisphere barrier, but I had to unreveal this secret to my opponent first. He didn't draw the third land fast enough, so when I get the Wastelock online, he subdued.

Round 4, Matouš, Canadian Thresh

g1: I stabilized on 5 life (5/6 imbecile for 1G is insane), and I locked Matouš pretty strong. Since now I played very defensively as I was trying to gain some time. I even tricked him to hopelessly try to break from the prison (I had Chalice@1, Wastelock, Stack, GP, Mage and some additional stuff like Canopy) but when I played Trinisphere, he conceded. Btw, he Ice-tapped my land in the early stage of game, and when I put the parts of my lock together, I felt really save as he was unable to finish me with burn, so the only thing I had to take care of were my Tombs. Unfortunately, Goyf changed this math, but those several turns, when I was on 19 life save behind the prison wall, I felt really good.
g2: Those Goyfs can make real trouble. Namely when one starts on 14 life... :-/ I rather changed some early Goyf for a Golem.
I locked the game somehow so nothing happened for turns, but I was at eleven. I just layed Magus and Golem, so we stared at each other. I had Angel in hand, but as I was unable to play and upkeep her without Tomb damage, I just waited. I ate Flagstones into legend rule and found a Plains and Savannah, and 'cause I didn't want him to know that I look for the Savannah on purpose, I commented it with something like "did I sided my lands out or what... here they are, all on the top": lame, I know. But it worked, as he stripped me of Tomb, not green mana, lately when he got his Waste.
Than Matouš got rid of Golem and Iced the Magus, which was a serious beating, as I dropped to 2 life. Untap, upkeep, draw...

"Choke?"**

Matouš had no Force, so the Choke got through. Wow!

During his upkeep, Matouš lost Goyf (he had four Islands, all of them tappped - two Trops for Ice, two Volcanics to satisfy the Prison), but if he draws a land, he can Bolt me out.
Opponent draws... and he got no land. Superb!
On my turn I played my morph and passed.
Opponent got no land once again. Superb!
I pay the upkeep for Angel, flip her and lose the Magus to his upkep (Tomb = bitch.), attack for four, link myself back to six and since now on it was game over.

Hurray, here I rule!

On sideboarding: yes, I use it. But I don't remember how exactly I sided...

* Well, as long as you don't play it like me - tap three mana, play it face down and announce "I'll put Exalted one..."
** Read "khokeh", of course...

GoldenCid

04-17-2010, 03:05 PM

i thought the same plan for this deck...it seems so good

danzam86

04-18-2010, 04:44 PM

Aleksandr

04-19-2010, 07:59 AM

I like the addition of the ensnaring bridge but, if you are in throuble with your life, there is the possibility that you can't attack with the angel or you need to keep at least 2 cards on your hand. Do you think the use of two baneslayer in your list is possible or you think exalted angel is the only way? Playing that list without angels is possible?

I used Exalted Angel mainly because I don't have money for Bankslayer. I also think that a list without both of them could be good, but in this case Humility + Moat + Elspeth is the best build... even though I really like the Cloisters.

GoldenCid

04-19-2010, 10:10 AM

even though I really like the Cloisters.

Why don't test cloister + solitary cinfinement?
If we have crucible we could discard lands...or redundant stuff.

danzam86

04-20-2010, 02:07 AM

With the addition or one oblivion ring, what would you have cut? playing 3 armageddon and 2 magus is not too risky?

Aleksandr

04-20-2010, 03:14 AM

Why don't test cloister + solitary cinfinement?
If we have crucible we could discard lands...or redundant stuff.

I've already thought about it. Problem is that Confinement is hard to upkeep without active Cloister, is white, while Bridge is non-white, so I cannot play it under Iona. And last but not least - you'll be surprised, how often the Bridge works on alone - Tarmogoyfs can easily grow above their average 4/5, and I don't have more than three to four cards in hand past the sixth turn or so. Not talking about great Reanimate/NO/S&T targets.

With the addition or one oblivion ring, what would you have cut? playing 3 armageddon and 2 magus is not too risky?

I don't have a slightest clue. That's why I didn't make any change in the main/SB, even thoguh I'd really like to see the third Ring from time to time.
I believe that I play a bit subpar (or unreliable) list with all those two-ofs and three-ofs, but as long as it works, I am not going to make some bigger changes.
I think that Humility/Moat is far better combination than Cloister/Bridge, but otoh it is thousand times more expensive and I don't own those cards. It also needs Elspeth, which once again is a card that not only I don't own, but the Angel is cheaper, saved me from low life total many times and can finish the game in fast pace.

Against mainly aggro metagame, I'd use Humility, Moat, Elspeth. In more diverse meta the Cloister/Bridge is better not only because it stops occassional 7/10, but I can also play it easily under number of vexing permanents like Moon/Iona, it feeds my hand in difficult attrition matchups, and saves me from discard.

Antonius

05-08-2010, 03:05 PM

I'd like to hear what people think of my stackless build. Take a look:

(30) Mana Sources

4 Mox Diamond
10 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland

(9) Creatures
3 Baneslayer Angel
1 Exalted Angel
2 Voidstone Gargoyle
3 Windborn Muse

(21) non-Creatures
3 Suppression Field
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Armageddon
4 Ghostly Prison

Sideboard --
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Trinisphere
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Noetic Scales
3 Tormod's Crypt

So...yeah, the build is definitely less prison than the average Stacks build. It aims to null the opposing team with multiple prison effects and fly over for the win. Moat would be so Ideal if I had it--unfortunately I do not. Gargoyle has been surprisingly useful. It's infinitely better than Meddling mage against loam becuase he doesn't die to a single Barbarian Ring and he's awesome in the red matchup because he nulls Anarchy. And I've been loving the MD Suppression Fields. No facotories or elspeth kind of sucks, but Angels provide a much faster, more efficient win con anyways.
Really, though, what this build needs to be just a little better is a 3cc creature with flying or lifelink. Or both.

GoldenCid

05-08-2010, 05:15 PM

How do you feel without removal spells MD??

General_Norris

05-08-2010, 05:38 PM

2 Noetic Scales

Could you explain this SB choice? Seems interesting.

BTW, I will not have Diamonds for a while. What card can I play meanwhile in it's place?

thebadmagicplayer

05-09-2010, 10:30 AM

I would assume that the scales are for the re-animator matchup. stops iona pretty hard.

oRen

05-09-2010, 04:33 PM

i got to admit that i dislike running 2-offs in deck without any manipulation.
futhermore this card is nearly useless in most other matchups.
imo the fourth crypt should be enough to win vs reanimator.

are there any boarding techniques around in this thread ? [i am pretty sorry to not being able to read 114 pages]

thebadmagicplayer

05-09-2010, 07:17 PM

I'd need to see a list to be able to comment. I running a duch stax of sorts so my SB is way different.

GoldenCid

05-15-2010, 02:19 PM

Here i post an interesting list with some tutor power based in Academy rector:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
6 [US] Plains (4)
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

// Creatures
3 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle
2 [M10] Baneslayer Angel
2 [UD] Academy Rector

// Spells
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [PT] Armageddon
3 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
1 [LG] Moat
2 [EX] Cataclysm

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PT] Armageddon
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [OD] Sphere of Law
SB: 3 [RAV] Suppression Field
SB: 2 [M10] Open the Vaults
SB: 2 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 2 [FNM] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [9E] Ivory Mask

Note that Magus / Tabernacle + A. rector = Yeah!!!
SB doesn't like me so far...but your comments are welcomed!!

Aleksandr

05-15-2010, 02:42 PM

GoldenCid: Didn't you find the colorlessness, lower pricetag and old card image of Exalted angle more apealling than that of Baneslayer? Cause in fact I won some games with Exalted that (be it Bankslayer one) I'd lost. It was mainly to her speed , of course.

silentstack

05-27-2010, 09:13 AM

For quite a while I ran BS, but I dropped her because
1. she has WW in her Manacost and
2. when I played her it was a ´win-more´.

I like to play Lodestone Golem MD, I know it doesn't have synergy with Sphere or anything else in the deck, but he builds up pressure and is colorless :D

Curby

05-27-2010, 11:03 AM

It's worth noting that sometimes the deck needs to win-more. Slow decks can have a problem getting the necessary wins in before time runs out. It's not enough to get a lock because a lock doesn't kill them by itself. Most opponents are gracious enough to concede, but you don't want them to get game 1, then draw out game 2 to a tie (even though they don't have an out) and take the match. It's a small consideration, but nonetheless a consideration.

silentstack

05-27-2010, 03:43 PM

Indeed. One of the Decks problem is that is doesn't has a real clock on the opponent. My reason for dropping BS and not playing Exalted is the WW. Staxx would be God is it was consistent, for that I don't like WW.

Anybody thought about of Eater of Days? I don't think that skipping two turns in the lategame is grave. But you can't just throw it out on turn two or three.

Curby

05-27-2010, 04:00 PM

I was about to ask "why not World Queller," but it's a white card requiring WW. I guess Lodestone is alright. He's rather crappy against other critters and Bolts, but the idea is to get rid of those threats before landing him.

silentstack

05-27-2010, 04:55 PM

To be honest, I played the Queller :D Also the issue with the WW but he was the most effective for me out of the various WW beaters.
I'm not telling anyone not to play the good critters, more power to y', but it then it lacks with the consistency.
About the golem; he trades with most of the stuff that comes to my mind and the MUs that play Bolt are pretty much in our favour, except Goblins maybe...

GoldenCid

06-11-2010, 08:23 PM

Fresh new from my aggro stax!

Top 3!

R1: Survival.

Atypical match. None played the best cards of each deck and i lost to a Q. pridemage and bad luck. 0-2. 0-0-1.

R2: Rgb Goblins

Nasty match for me. First match an aether vial @ 1 ate him...indeed!!
2nd: Lackey eaten by O-ring followed by trini, moat and magus + ggedon! GG man!!! 0-2. 1-0-1.

R3: 43 lands

Hard! Ggedon + Crucible > Loam + 43 lands??
Yep thia time. I run 2 Suppression field maindeck what was crucial. After a loooong match i won 1-0. 2-0-1.

R4: Storm combo

This matchshould be cool. And it was!!
Chalice @ 1 + Mindscensor was hard for him. Then glowrider post side + trini ate him!! 2-0. 3-0-1.

Decklist:

// Lands
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
5 [5E] Plains (1)
4 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [LG] Karakas

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [10E] Windborn Muse
4 [ON] Exalted Angel
2 [UD] Academy Rector

// Spells
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [PT] Armageddon
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [LG] Moat
2 [RAV] Suppression Field

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Suppression Field (somebody said linvala here??)
SB: 2 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [OD] Sphere of Law
SB: 1 [8E] Ivory Mask
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [LE] Glowrider
SB: 3 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle

Any suggstions for the s. Field slots??

Comments??

fertris

06-13-2010, 07:37 PM

Hello, i'm new here.
I play stax deck, and i'm testing Black and white.

Here is my list

Lands 25

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
4 Plains
4 Scrubland
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Nomad Stadium
1 The Tabernacle at pendrell vale

Spells 30

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the void
3 Trinisphere
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Armageddon
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Vindicate
3 Story Circle

Creatures 5

3 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Baneslayer Angel

I dont use Misha Factory because i need white mana (and black for the vindicate)
I use Vindicate instead of Oblivion ring, because i can destroy basic lands
I use Explosives because sometimes i cant play a chalice@2 or @1 before my opponent plays some cards with that cost, but i destroy the cards with my explosives and then cast the chalices
I dont use suppression field (i have 3 in the sideboard) becasuse it doesnt work well against some decks, and sometimes is bad for me. For example a Merfolk deck have little problem about the fields, and stax / merfolk is near 50% 50%
I love Story Circle (even if i must pay WW1 to cast it) Against zoo choose green or red, against merfolk blue, against goblin red, against... is a great card

I use Leyline of the void in the sideboard (great against loam decks) and bojuka.

I play white stax 1-2 years, and i changed to black - white a few days ago.

My first test is against zoo. And if nothing strange happens you win 2-1 easily (a lot of games in the test)

What do you think about my deck? Any feedback?

Thanks in Advance

silentstack

06-14-2010, 03:29 PM

What problems do you want to solve with black?
I never saw the point of using a second color :D It makes the manabase unstable (ok, my old man once said: If for bad luck, you wouldn't have any.) and you're just using it for shenanigans.
The second color for EE is also available with the Mox.

But if it works for you, go for it! ;)

@Golden: The Mindcensor looks tasty.

So long

PS: The only time I was tempted to go W/b was when I saw Staxx with Smallpox; at the same time my old man told me about my luck.

thebadmagicplayer

06-14-2010, 04:15 PM

yeah the black seems kind of pointless. vindicate is not a good reason to weaken the deck by removing factories.

Moduloc

06-14-2010, 05:00 PM

What does the community think about SUN TITAN, I think this card could be good enough for stax. thoughts?
sun titan
creature-giant
vigilance
when suntitan enters the battlefield or attacks you may return a permanet with converted mana cost up to three from your graveyard to battlefield
A blazing sun that never sets
6/6

Vesper Ghoul

06-14-2010, 07:57 PM

If you are running Aven Mindcensor: Ghost Quarter seems like the way to roll as it is almost a Strip Mine.

silentstack

06-15-2010, 08:20 AM

The Sun Titan costs WWW. Case closed ;)

Moduloc

06-15-2010, 05:11 PM

its cost is WW4.

GoldenCid

06-15-2010, 05:11 PM

The Sun Titan costs WWW. Case closed ;)

False, it's 4WW.

@Vesper: right i will try it, but i'm not pretty convinced. Any experience??

silentstack

06-16-2010, 10:32 AM

Shame on me then.

Moduloc

06-16-2010, 03:12 PM

nobody has stated whether they think that it would be any good, for recursion of prison pieces or wastelands...

GoldenCid

06-17-2010, 12:02 AM

nobody has stated whether they think that it would be any good, for recursion of prison pieces or wastelands...

Didn`t understantd...

f|i[p]

06-17-2010, 01:09 AM

My first thoughts on sun titan for stax. I think it could be very useful, first of, it could be your 5th-8th crucible of worlds... It blocks and it attacks at the same time...Which is very useful forstax. Everytime it attacks you get a free lock piece back.. He returns countered/destroyed trinispheres , crucibles and lock(aura of silence,supression fields) pieces back to play.He has very good synergy with smokestack, wasteland and armageddon. Actually I think he has good synergy with the whole deck.

Although you may say he is quite slow, 6 mana is quite easy to reach with our mana base. Although he doesn't help the deck with consistency issues, it has always been a problem of stax that we rely on our opening hand too much.

I think however with a new build of stax he may be quite viable.. Something that could involve tangle wires, powder kegs or the likes.

Definitely a card that is worthy of testing at the least. A new stax build, could arise to be able to abuse his abilities.

Moduloc

06-17-2010, 05:18 AM

I like the idea of recuring tangle wire, that could be super sexy.

lordofthepit

06-20-2010, 02:02 AM

Does Grim Monolith get a slot in the deck now that it's unbanned?

silentstack

06-20-2010, 02:28 AM

What would you want to cut?

lordofthepit

06-20-2010, 02:40 AM

What would you want to cut?

Not sure, I don't really play the deck much but am interested in starting up.

On one hand, it seems like it would power early Trinispheres and CotV at 2 and Smoketacks much more reliably, as well as dropping early Maguses and Armaggeddons, but on the other hand, it's a nonbo with Supression Field after the first bit of acceleration.

Seems to me like the biggest problem with Stax is its dependence on an explosive opening (with the correct lock pieces) and its lack of removal, which Grim Monolith doesn't seem to address.

silentstack

06-27-2010, 05:09 AM

Does Grim Monolith get a slot in the deck now that it's unbanned?

which Grim Monolith doesn't seem to address.

You answered the question yourself :D

Alcibiades

06-29-2010, 12:30 PM

You answered the question yourself :D

But Monolith *does* answer both of those problems, at least indirectly. It helps you power out your lock pieces (especially Trinisphere), and it allows for earlier Angels/Maguses, which are basically the same thing as removal. Admittedly, it isn't *itself* a removal spell or lock piece, but if you're worried about that, just run more Oblivion Rings and/or a couple of copies of Sphere of Resistance.

The real problem with Monolith is that it costs 2 to play, and thus potentially clashes with Chalice of the Void.

For what it's worth, I took Geddon Stax to the Legacy 5K on Sunday and went 3-3 with it. I beat Zoo, Reanimator, and ANT and lost to Reanimator, Goblins, and Merfolk. (I had exceedingly bad draws against the last two decks.) It turned out to have been a very good metagame call, as the top 16 was dominated by aggro decks. I just got a bit unlucky.

Noman Peopled

06-29-2010, 04:51 PM

The real problem with Monolith would be what to cut for it. If you got a Chalice at 2 to stick, mana is probably not your biggest problem.

Why even play it over Petal? It accelerates you by exactly the same amount. Chalice at 0 is even less of a problem than Chalice for 2 as both cards are really only good t1-2 to ramp you to 3-4 mana that possible crucial turn earlier.
Monolith stays behind for Smokestack and allows sandbagging mana for a big play, and we don't need W t1 anyway. I'd say Monolith is better if you have BSA and worse if you have post-board Suppression Fields (or anything else that costs 1W); but the similarities to Petal make me vary - 'cause Petal sucks.

The real crux, what to cut? You can cut big beaters; you can cut lock pieces (replacing A with B when is only useful if you have A), or you can cut lands (weakening diamond). I'd start with big beaters, frankly - for experimentation purposes only.

sdematt

06-29-2010, 07:00 PM

@ Alcibiades

Same thing happened to me at SCG Seattle. I had really bad draws in the first two rounds, but then did alright afterwards. Stax is definitely a solid deck.

I don't think Grim Monolith needs to go in here. It's a one-time boost, as you'll probably never get to untap. I'd rather have more lock pieces, myself.

-Matt

Isei

06-30-2010, 03:11 PM

You all keep saying things like "Stax is a solid deck, I just lost to bad draws."

What you aren't realizing is that this is THE problem with the deck.

Almost every other deck in the format has brainstorm, standstill, some kind of card draw or card manipulation that makes their deck a lot more consistent. Even zoo has Sylvan Library. If we want Stax to be a competitive deck again, we need some kind of manipulation or draw, as well. Don't simply just say you got unlucky when that's how the deck is built right now-- with no way to change your luck.

Moduloc

06-30-2010, 09:23 PM

Isei puts it quite well, I have always loved playing this deck but it lacks consistancy, Enlight. tutor always comes to mind but plays against chalice. I am at a loss, perhaps shifting to 3 to 4 horizon canopy gives us a pretty good draw engine with crucible.

theorigionalzombiekilla

06-30-2010, 09:37 PM

Intuition.

The Wes

06-30-2010, 11:14 PM

I'm gonna try Crystal Ball. Gets around chalice and trini, nice price, scry2 seems decent also. We'll see.

Dzra

07-01-2010, 11:34 PM

Noman Peopled

07-02-2010, 03:37 AM

(I haven't had a chance to read through the entire thread yet, so bare with me.)

I've been splashing Green for Choke in the SB for a while now. Lately I've been thinking about upping the splash to include Sylvan Library. With a mana base of 4 Flagstones, 4 Savannahs, and 4 Mox Diamonds, I think it's very doable. I'm curious why this hasn't been tried or why it's failed, so far it seems amazing.

Another thought might be to try Serum Powder.
Sylvan Library, like Horizon Canopy, has the problem that it costs life to produce real card advantage. The filtering is good, but not something other cards coldn't provide.

But the principal problem of Stax is that its opening hands are so inconsistent. With the mana engine, it would be easy to make a deck that would have an awesome matchup against almost any given deck (with the obvious exception of decks with a high t1 win ratio wher everything's a coinflip, but more importantly other decks using the Tomb/City mana base). Of course, that is not an option outside of very narrow metagames.

The result is that we have to split our lock pieces between different purposes; Chalice/3Sphere vs Ghostly Prison/Magus for example. Therefore we often get hands that are awesome against aggro when facing combo and vice versa; or hands that are awesome against aggro-control unless our first Chalice/3sphere gets countered or pridemaged.
(Compare that with Vintage Stax which has the luxury of being able to concentrate on spells almost exclusively rather than having to deal with creature swarms also.)
We get hands where we have to rely on Ancient Tomb to a high degree, losing 8-12 life in the first few turns, which is a plan if our lock works but a huge liability if it doesn't. We get hands where we need City of Traitors to work, forcing us to start out slow.

This is all largely a problem of the early game. Not that we don't get some sucky draws later, but that could be mitigated if we only had a more reliable early game, which, frankly, I see happening in one of two ways: a) a new, versatile lock piece is released or b) a new, reliable source of mana is released to play our lock pieces more reliably and quickly. We need solid replacements, not complements; the decks is tight on slots as is.
In other words, almost every option introduced - especially those that do nothing but draw/filter - are a liability in the first few turns because They Are Not A Lock Piece (TM), thus limiting our options in the early game, especially in the face of Force of Will, Grip, or Pridemage on our vital lock piece. And we do not want to spend our first one or two turns hoping to draw into a better hand either, regardless of what card we're playing to accomplish that.

This is my understanding at least, and there are a few ways to use it.
Basically, Stax has three categories of cards:
a) mana
b) lock pieces
c) attacker (optional)
I'd first look for a card to replace something in the deck rather than be added outright (with the possible exclusion of the attacker slot and cards with sufficiently high impact).
For example, if you want more draw, replace two lands with Canopies rather than cut an Angel and a lock piece for a card with minimal immediate impact that's a blank in the first few turns.
If you want an attacker, BSA is a lock against aggro, and KotR can get a Tabernacle to serve the same basic function a bit slower. They are not only attackers - and I merely label them as such because they can eliminate an opponent quickly if unchecked, even with no further support; I might easily have lumped them together with the lock pieces. Nobody's playing Goyf, for example.

Now, a card like Choke - main in the appropriate metagame or from the side, replacing a less relevant lock piece - seems awesome under this philosophy, and was indeed confirmed as a very good sideboard option. Another example would be Suppression Field against Lands. Neither helps the draw but both increase the density of highly relevant spells in the deck, which is exactly what we need early on.

A card like Crystal Ball (and yes, I'll try it too, like I have tried Well of Knowledge, Horn of Greed, and others) or Sylvan Library, by contrast, literally eliminates a slot from the deck. Since we're talking main, we're talking about making the deck less consistent early on in favor of making it more consistent incrementally, later. This is a problematic option in general.
Serum Powder is best when you need one seriously busted card from your deck very early. Stax demands the very opposite; a good opening hand must include at least three mana t2, preferrably two mana t1, (at least two cards) and a series of lock pieces to make sure you have at least one or two that are relevant (especially funny game 1 when you have no idea if you're gonna get combo'd out t2 or attacked with Goyfs; with variance), and preferrably that they interlock in a relevant way (this would necessitate two to three lock pieces easily, as one will often be almost irrelevant, an even a very good one will not be good enough against most deck). And the general problem remains; you will get to see see seven new cards, yes, but there's a distinct chance that you will see another (useless) Serum Powder during the course of the game.
As, indeed, for all you know, your hand would've been keepable without the Powder in the first place. This is true of pure filter/draw cards in Stax, but at least the do provide repeateable effects.

Argh. Wall-o'-text again.
To summarize, Stax is very tight on slots, and it needs those slots desperately, too. Cutting anything for something with a different function may result in better consistency later, but will always result in diminished consistency early.

theorigionalzombiekilla

07-02-2010, 07:41 AM

I have been running tundras for intuition and have found it to be strong. It will always go get the card you want to see, often on the first turn. It is not a bad top deck and is great in the opening hand. Seriously, try it out.

Dzra

07-02-2010, 01:46 PM

I guess for reference, here is the deck I've been working with. My meta is pretty aggro heavy. Right now there's a lot of Goblins, but if they start getting replaced with Zoo I'll probably have to turn Damping Matrix into Suppression Field.

Artifacts 20
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

Creatures 5
3 Magus Of The Tabernacle
2 Baneslayer Angel

Other Spells 11
4 Armageddon
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring

Land 24
5 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
4 Flagstones Of Trokair
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kor Haven

Sideboard 15
4 Sphere of Law
3 Choke
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Damping Matrix
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Magus Of The Tabernacle

So, really, I would be looking at the Oblivion Ring slots probably as far as Sylvan Library or some other card. Another thought I had would be Wall of Omens. It'd be pretty useless against Combo, but then again, so is O-Ring. It stalls Tarmagoyf and stops most Goblins. Just a thought.

Another question I had was on 24 VS 25 lands. I've heard that Mox Diamond really likes 25 lands to work, but we really don't need to ruin our late game draws any further.

Noman Peopled

07-02-2010, 02:11 PM

That's almost the same Maindeck I run. Alternating between 24-25 lands and 3-4 Magi.

So, really, I would be looking at the Oblivion Ring slots probably as far as Sylvan Library or some other card. Another thought I had would be Wall of Omens. It'd be pretty useless against Combo, but then again, so is O-Ring. It stalls Tarmagoyf and stops most Goblins. Just a thought.
O-Ring was intended as a catch-all answer to stuff including but not limited to Teeg, fatties who paid their taxes, Serenity, EE/Deed, opposing Crucibles, Survival, as well as general randomness like freaking Elvish Piper, etc. I guess if you don't see problem permanents often you could cut them.
For some reason there's a lot of Teegs in my meta, as well as Deeds and a weird NO/Pattern of Rebirth deck that destroys my Stax everytime. (Lots of mana critters and it actually wants to sacrifice creatures. And Deed plus discard. I can't even side out enough stuff.)

Dzra

07-02-2010, 04:33 PM

Don't get me wrong, I like O-Ring and unless I find something better I'll definitely keep running it. The problem with it though is that it's so reactive. The point of Stax is proactive control. I'm going to lock you up before you can do something good. O-Ring is playing catchup. If they drop Teeg, we're already set back a turn (from playing Smokestack or Armageddon), assuming we even have the O-Ring in hand. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I believe if our early game consistency was improved then the need for midgame catch-alls like O-Ring would be SB material at best.

Dark Ritual

07-02-2010, 05:21 PM

O ring is greatness because it can catch any card save land....and when I play stax, I hate losing to a lone tarmogoyf/fat creature on the board. But intuition looks interesting and is maybe the card for the deck since it dodges chalice and can get anything. And if you splash blue for intuition why not run a singleton academy ruins in place of a mishra's factory or something because it can do lots of good. And maybe include EE then since you run 2 colors but can tap for all five with mox diamonds it seems solid and can dodge chalice easily or be playing proactively turn 1 with 1 counter. Stax has always had consistentcy problems which is why it will never be a tier 1 deck but if that problem is solved, I can see it competing at major events possibly.

Isei

07-03-2010, 04:45 AM

Noman Peopled

07-03-2010, 04:58 AM

I've considered cutting the green splash to change Oblivion Rings into Vindicates. They don't have too much synergy with the 2 lands, I know, but they hit lands, including basics, making the mana denial plan that much stronger. Also, you don't necessarily need a big beater-- many lists have done well without them. We could go up to the full 4 vindicates by cutting off the beater slots and O-Ring slots. Any thoughts, or has anyone already tested this?
Oblivion's Ring's beauty is that it's very reliable, which is important against the cards that forced us to play it in the first place. If you want to eat a Deed or even a Teeg, you can't spend a turn or two waiting for black. There will even be occasions where playing that black source would mean you have to sacrifice a City first.

But of the course the land kill is a solid bonus. I'd just goldfish a bit and see how stably and fast it comes online.

Yes, builds with fatties have done well; I myself am not playing BSA, mostly because I refuse to dish out that kind of money for a card that's only useful in one deck. Lotsa more versatile cards to get first.
However, that leaves you with a mere four Magi as a win condition. Plus, of course, Factories. Those can and often are played, but in addition to Wastes/Tombs/Cities they'd make Vindicate less reliable, what with taking up slots for fetchlands/duals.

SilverGreen

07-03-2010, 09:51 AM

Another question I had was on 24 VS 25 lands. I've heard that Mox Diamond really likes 25 lands to work, but we really don't need to ruin our late game draws any further.

You all keep saying things like "Stax is a solid deck, I just lost to bad draws."

What you aren't realizing is that this is THE problem with the deck.

Almost every other deck in the format has brainstorm, standstill, some kind of card draw or card manipulation that makes their deck a lot more consistent. Even zoo has Sylvan Library. If we want Stax to be a competitive deck again, we need some kind of manipulation or draw, as well. Don't simply just say you got unlucky when that's how the deck is built right now-- with no way to change your luck.You can easely run a pair of these new M11 Crystal Ball/Temple Bell (not sure yet which one fits better - both have their pros and cons), replacing some combination of Smokestacks/Prisons/O-Rings.

These new cards seems like the flush of gas this deck always asked for. The Bell looks particularlly interesting when cast under an stablished lock (active Stack, redundant Geddons in hand, Wastelock, etc), where it can generate some real card advantage. The Ball seems better at the task of trading garbage for business, and doesn't help your opponent to find more lands. It seems a choice between Ball and Bell would depend on the build.

Noman Peopled

07-03-2010, 11:49 AM

My guess is that neither will make it for the reasons I outlined. Crystal Ball has no immediate impact and everything is good under a lock (see Well of Knowledge).

Dzra

07-04-2010, 02:00 AM

Would it be feasible to run Enlightened Tutor? Obviously Chalice@1 and Trinisphere make short work of your own Enlightened Tutors. However, securing the t2 play seems too great an option. If you've gotten out a t1 Chalice/Trinisphere then your work is already done. With tutor, it'd easier to set up a t2 Chalice/Trinisphere/Prison if it wasn't in my hand. Not to mention it'd be easier to get the right lock piece for the right deck.

Enlightened Tutor seems like it would help consistency a whole lot. Mulligan less by helping to secure solid t2 plays, find lock pieces mid to late game, and find SB tech like Choke, Suppression Field, and Sphere of Law. I can understand why you wouldn't want to step on your feet by running the tutor, but the problem of consistency is just too great.

Intuition just seems so iffy @ 2U. I feel like we have to have better options than that.

Curby

07-04-2010, 03:24 AM

Noman Peopled

07-04-2010, 07:05 AM

ET has been suggested since the beginning, but now I can fully articulate just why it doesn't work as advertised instead of just saying "card disadvantage bad."

Consistency means that the same thing happens every time, and the way you get that is by running more of everything. If you add tutors, you have to take out something, and that aspect of your deck will take a consistency hit. While you'll be more likely to HAVE a tutor, you'll also be more likely to NEED a tutor. Decreasing the consistency of your deck is the first problem with the tutor.
That's exactly what I was trying to articulate.
I'd like to add that while a tutor technically does increas the number of basically everything in Stax, Stax may not be a deck that's able to utilize tutors (or at least not the ones available). They're either too costly to immediately use and play whatever they got during the same turn- which would be necessary to make them functionally on par with what they got - or too cheap and problematic with Chalice, and of course there's always the CDA of E Tutor which a deck with 28-29 mana sorces can't afford often enough.

Getting bad opening hands can happen to any deck and is therefore not an inherent problem with Stax. As a deck, Stax is actually impressively consistent simply because of the number of 4-ofs we run.
True to a point, but sufficiently inaccurate to make a difference I think.
We get enough keepable hands but know woefully little about whether they will work out even during the first few turns. (And we need the right combination of lands/Moxen to cast stuff, too.) The obvious example of course would be game 1 against combo? aggro-control? aggro? But any deck boarding and maindeck any removal/counters will do. Stax places its mana denial pretty consistently, but assuming this turns out to be insufficient due to meddling or whatever, it has to rely on the draw step. (Of course this in no way invalidades your - and indeed my - earlier point that draw helps you out of this but also make it more likely to get you into it.)

Contrast this with any deck that can filter through six cards during the first few turns, or one that has twelve one-drops, nine two-drops, and five three-drops plus versatile burn and removal. Or with a combo deck that can filter as well and is still playing twelve to sixteen accel cards just to draw enough.
Incoherence is not an inherent problem of Stax exclusively, but the variance is higher - as it is in any deck without a filter engine or a high number of sufficiently interchangeable cards. Else people wouldn't be looking for a CA/filter engine for Stax in the first place.

The problem is that we need a lot of pieces, and we need each one at a particular time. We're asking for the deck to predict future gamestates and always give us the perfect card. To do this, we need either card drawing engines or card quality engines. Oftentimes, one is enough for a deck: with enough drawing, you'll inevitably get to what you need. With enough sculpting, you make your one card per turn count. We have neither. What we DO have is tons of virtual card advantage, epitomized in the full lock where a few of our cards negates their entire deck.
The first part is the very definition of inconsistency, isn't it?
The second is also true, of course; we have tons of CA, but that's useless without the right virtual CA card for the situation.

Back to dzra: The tutor gives you the ability to search but it hurts your actual card advantage, which is the second problem with the tutor. If you think that the tradeoffs are worth it, then please do test and tell us what you find. Just understand there are tradeoffs in consistency and card advantage: the card worsens the problems that it was supposed to fix in the first place.
That and there's Chalice. The very idea concerning better filtering/draw is that it should increase consistency, not become irrelevant depending on situation. Stuff becoming irrelevant depending on situation is what we're trying to get out of, after all.
That said, I did play two E Tutors for a while to use against combo since 3sphere and Chalice are so important in the matchup and Prisons were irrelevant. (This was before Thorn of Amethyst.)

P.S. Intuition is awesome. Not only does it work wonderfully with Crucible, it also does fine with Chalice and Trinisphere, and maintains card advantage while increasing card quality. The only problem is that you need to weaken your manabase to use it, and if I'm going to splash I'd rather go green for Grip, Choke, Knight of the Reliquary, Horizon Canopy, etc.
I agree. The only upside to E Tutor is that it's so much faster.
As I mentioned, the way to make Stax better in principle, more than adding draw, is to replace lock pieces with better ones (or ones that serve one purpose with ones that serve a slightly different one). But that's purely hypothetical as we're basically playing every worthwhile lock piece in the format already. But it is exactly why I love Choke so much; and of course Knight is extremely versatile for such a huge beater.
If only World Queller cost 2WW :D

Q-Ball

07-04-2010, 02:00 PM

Artifacts 20
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

Creatures 5
3 Magus Of The Tabernacle
2 Baneslayer Angel

Other Spells 11
4 Armageddon
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring

Land 24
5 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
4 Flagstones Of Trokair
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kor Haven

Sideboard 15
4 Sphere of Law
3 Choke
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Damping Matrix
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Magus Of The Tabernacle

Just quoting the list first up above.
In my recent matchups, the real issue for me has been losing critical pieces to either EE or being taken out by fast aggro. Working with the principle that lock pieces can only be replaced by better lock pieces, I tried to find a better piece. Suppresion field is now maindeck because of this, it slows down some of the top contenders and leads to a "must counter or destroy" kind of lock piece (especially against fetch lands).

I was running WU in order to have Propaganda and Ghostly prison, but realized that it was now not as good even as Ensnaring Bridge. No bottled cloister combo or what not, just Ensnaring bridge. It certainly dwarfs out New Horizon's and other aggro strategys.

One of the worst topdecks has been a Mox Diamond for quite some time, with Ensnaring bridge you can simply drop it and let it die to it's own trigger and maintain a low hand size. Ensnaring bridge get's around the worst of the discard contender's and often stop's discard strategy's. When you have one card, Even Nantuko shade isn't coming through for pumped hits.

By doing this though, it eliminated the need to have a Tabernacle system. While this might seem like sacrilege in a Geddon Stax thread, Tabernacle became one of the weakest cards except in Goblin or Fish matchups. Player's who do not have an answer for Bridge will let their creatures die in order to find the answer with their mana. Reliance on Crucible became slightly less (still a 3 or 4 of for Wastelock and similar). This freed up quite a few slots. After this, looking toward's the win condition, it became necessary to now have a reliable win condition. In this way Magus became a two of.

Elspeth fills that slot. Even as a two of, the diminished need for win condition's with factory's become oustanding. Of course with Ensnaring bridge you now have to meet it's own requirement to attack; but Ensnaring bridge also saves Planeswalkers in a way that Prison/Ganda could not.

So what's my point?

I believe you are entirely correct that card quality can be increased and free up more room.
Crystal ball is certainly looking good. But the Temple bell seem's better to me. While mutual draw system's are rarely what is wanted, the no life penalty, and the ability to control the draw time to make the most of Ensnaring bridge provides real depth.

Trinisphere has been better then ever for me. And is back up to a 4 of.
My core is now looking like this.

4 Trinisphere
3 Suppression Field
4 Mox Diamond
2 Elspeth
2 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Temple Bell
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Oblivion Ring

28 Cards with more available slots then ever.

New tester card for the week is Ajani Vengeant.
His ability to tap and hold something down is impenetrable. Often times that which might be able to deal with him becomes tapped down as he becomes a one sided Armageddonantion!
Supporting a R isn't so hard either. A single Plateau and a Arid Mesa has worked fine. The single fetch is often a non issue with Suppression field. Mox diamond's pick up the slack. And Flagstones can still find them should they go to the grave; of course sometimes Wastelanding yourself (horrid situation) can be necessary.

Other tester's involves a 2 of Riftstone portal in the landbase. It provides a way out to Ancient tomb damage and easy WW or G taps. That let's us enjoy Choke in MB or SB and get's out of Blood moon! (They become Mountains with tap for green or white aka jungle shrine!)

Ensnaring bridge opens up new options in Planeswalkers, which is still something that is not that easy to deal with short of an Oblivion ring.

Maze of Ith is filling my own Tabernacle spot. And I will be testing KoTR over Magus in the next week.

Dzra

07-04-2010, 03:15 PM

Enlightened Tutor generates no real CA, but think about games you've won and games you've lost. Games I've won have all amounted to having a relevant soft lock piece down on t1 or t2 (Chalice/Trinisphere/Prison) either followed up with a beater they couldn't stop or with a harder lock (Wasteland/Smokestack + Crucible). When I lose, it's either because I didn't have soft lock by t1/t2, because I mulliganed down to oblivion while looking for a relevant lock, or just from bad late game topdecking. Enlightened Tutor fixes two of these problems and potentially helps the third (admittedly it potentially hurts the third as well simply depending on gamestate).

That being said, I've been goldfishing games using 3 and 4 Enlightened Tutors in place of some combination of Crucibles, Smokestacks, and Oblivion Rings and have found that my chance to goldfish into a t2 soft lock is highly improved, while my chance to t1 into a soft lock remains the same. I'll keep testing it out, but I encourage others to do some testing of their own and not write it off completely.

Curby

07-05-2010, 03:16 AM

As a deck, Stax is actually impressively consistent simply because of the number of 4-ofs we run. The problem is that we need a lot of pieces, and we need each one at a particular time. We're asking for the deck to predict future gamestates and always give us the perfect card.

We get enough keepable hands but know woefully little about whether they will work out even during the first few turns.

The first part is the very definition of inconsistency, isn't it?

This may lead us down the dark hole of semantics, but here's a thought: perhaps we've built Stax up to actually be too consistent. The problem with consistency is that you lack versatility. Card quality engines give you precisely what Stax needs: not the same card every time, but the right card at the right time. Depending on the opponent and current state of the board, your optimum topdeck changes, and tutors are a way to help manage the topdeck. In other words, tutor DOES decrease your consistency by making the deck do different things each game, but that could very well be a strength.

Consider the use of ETutor in recent Death and Taxes lists. It's used to construct a toolbox sideboard filled with singletons that each address a particular threat. Why doesn't Stax use a toolbox? The prevailing Stax philosophy is that we don't need specific solutions to individual problems: all of our cards handle many threats. Again, you see Stax valuing the idea of consistency: we just do the same thing come what may. However, it's increasingly obvious that consistency isn't enough. Even when each card is generic enough to handle many threats, there're always some cards that will be more useful than others in a given situation. When people say that the deck is inconsistent, it's probably being quite consistent: but it still can't predict the future and give you what you'll need. In that case you need directed, deliberate inconsistency: you need a tutor.

However, the problem of card disadvantage still exists. In the case of D&T, the ability to pack five copies each of several game-breaking cards into the side is deemed more significant than the occasional loss of a draw step. Does the tutor in Stax grant such strong advantages that it's worth the same price?

In the case of Stax, there's dissonance between tutor and other cards in the deck. Even if we can say that the tutor's card quality strengths outweigh its card advantage weaknesses, there are these other problems to deal with. But it's time to abandon the idea of consistency above all, because consistency isn't enough. If it were, Stax would be doing better than it is. We need to influence the deck to be inconsistent in our favor. We need it to do different things in different games, but we need to control those differences. ETutor might not be the way to do so, but we need something like it.

majikal

07-05-2010, 04:07 AM

Stuff about consistency

http://img.coolstuffinc.net/products/mtg%20art/magic%202011/203.jpg

Q-Ball

07-05-2010, 04:25 AM

A full night on Workstation. Played against New Horizons, against some Fish, one Gobo, and actually only lost Gobo.
I must say this is working well. The sad face of having to pay 2 for some activated ability's is worth the pain on locking out fetchlands for turns on end or totally. Versus gobo's, it makes aether vial a sad face. I had little issue with consistency, and mulli'd about one in 3 games and was happy with the new hand. Ensnaring bridge was great except when you hit a huge land bust up. But that would be loss anyway, so I'm okay. Otherwise you can run out things to get low on Bridge and be comfy.

AJ is amazing. A tapper, a clock, removal, it's what we need.
Lightning helix can remove a small threat and life gain you. Occasionally getting rid of the Riftstone short of a Mox is hard. In which case it produces colorless on field till you can Waste it or Ghost quarter it or Smokestack bump it off. But that tech has saved me from countless deaths to Ancient Tomb!

1 Horizon Canopy
3 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
3 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Arid Mesa
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Plateau
2 Riftstone Portal

2 Magus of the Tabernacle

1 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Suppression Field
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Ajani Vengeant

oRen

07-05-2010, 05:05 AM

3 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
3 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Arid Mesa
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Riftstone Portal

2 Magus of the Tabernacle

1 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Suppression Field
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Ajani Vengeant

playing no geddons is bad at all especially with 4 trinisphere and 3 suppression field main.
i guess it is better to go for bridge than for the prison if playing no geddons in geddon stax. but not playing the good cards to make the worse cards better seems strange to me.

the problem with the bridge is that it will never stop first turn lackey when you are on the play - with prison you got at least the chance to go for t1 prison t2 wasteland/prison#2/geddon/... .
my games against goblins with durchstax told me that 1st lackey which is able to attack you on their 2nd turn is their only way to win as they can win on their turn 3 after hitting us once.

ajani is NO real clock - if not disrupted in any way he takes like 19 turns to win alone if the opponent is on 20 life. though its a good card and running 2 is very fine.

1 off smokestack is super random and you should play more or none.

suppression field is a nice card but there is no space for them ... get those in your sideboard and start running fuckin' geddons.

the mana base sucks hard. it shows me that you never played this deck in real life.
you will never get any good results with playing 1 plains - i disliked playing 4 in my 3 color build - now i play 6 in a 2 color build.
rework it ... cut some stuff and add some basic plains ...

post your sideboard!
as you are running red i would hardly recommend 4 BOIL for it.

best regards

Curby

07-05-2010, 01:01 PM

1 off smokestack is super random and you should play more or none.

Yeah, I was thinking that the only reason to run less than three is if you start using ETutor. You don't necessarily want to see a stack in your opener anyway.

Dzra

07-05-2010, 01:01 PM

I think getting into semantics isn't going to help us any. ;p If you've played the deck to any extent, you know "the problem". You're playing Burn, your opening seven has 2 mox diamonds, 3 land, a Ghostly Prison, and an Armageddon. Do you keep and hope you draw into a better lock piece or mulligan and hope you get a better lock and have the mana setup to cast it early? You're playing Goblins on the draw, can you afford to keep a Flagstones, an Ancient Tomb, plains, Trinisphere, Chalice, Mox Diamond? Their turn one will be a Lackey or an Aether Vial. Playing your Chalice or Trinisphere will do barely anything to slow them down, if that. You can mull or you can draw, either way, hoping to pick up a Ghostly Prison (perhaps a Supression Field) before they completely overrun you.

Of course, these games could just as easily gone the complete opposite. T1/2 Chalice@1 or Trinisphere spells the end for Burn. Or had you been on the play, Goblins would have under tremendous pressure. That's the conundrum with Stax. If it weren't for the potential to make such devastating T1/2 plays, Stax would have been long abandoned because many times you are defeated by your own lousy draws, not anything in particular an opponent is doing.

Moving on... Ajani Vengeant VS Baneslayer as a finisher:

AV has very relevant abilities, namely tapping permanants and destroying lands. The life gain is helpful, but because it's a - ability, it can't race well.

Baneslayer can race better than any creature.

AV's cmc is 4, compared to Baneslayer's 5. They both require 2 colored mana, however Ajani requires WR while Baneslayer is WW.

AV is harder to kill, assuming you have some sort of lockdown on their creatures (Ghostly Prison, Oblivion Rings).

Baneslayer is harder to kill, assuming you have some sort of lockdown on their resources (Trinisphere, Chalice@1).

Either is good under a hard lock, obviously.

AV tries to slow the game down, Baneslayer tries to speed the game up.

While Ajani V is a good card and fits our theme very well, I wouldn't replace Baneslayer with him. Perhaps it's still worth consideration in another slot though.

Q-Ball

07-05-2010, 01:29 PM

the mana base sucks hard. it shows me that you never played this deck in real life.
you will never get any good results with playing 1 plains - i disliked playing 4 in my 3 color build - now i play 6 in a 2 color build.
rework it ... cut some stuff and add some basic plains ...
I must say your off your rocker a little bit.
The mana base is averaged out by priority and casting cost; with proper utility.
27 Lands including one that doesn't make mana (unless riftstone hits grave)

1 Horizon Canopy
3 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
3 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Arid Mesa
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Plateau
2 Riftstone Portal

There are 10 white producers, again plus four mox. My only double white is Elspeth.
If flagstones hits the grave, and it normally does, 2/3 of games, everything produces white and green.
Otherwise, there are four green producers, not counting the Flagstones inherent ability to find a Savannah.
And "2" red producers, plus the flagstones, plus the mox.
That is 14/8/6. Without Ghostly prison, everything I mainly play to lock is colorless.

Again, not running Geddon means I don't need the extra plains.

ajani is NO real clock - if not disrupted in any way he takes like 19 turns to win alone if the opponent is on 20 life. though its a good card and running 2 is very fine.
As explained; and as you have clearly not used him, he is not a clock.
He is a lock piece. He has a one sided geddon built in under a soft lock, he can help lock down important mana or even a Mox, he can hold off an attacker much like a Maze of Ith and make a player take out a second threat to deal with him, in which case if they can even get that, it has to fit under Bridge.

Because of this, Magus and Mishra's are still the same finisher with Elspeth support.

I could see myself dropping the Suppression field based on meta. Here there is mass fetch lands and alot of planeswalkers. In which case I'd add another Smokestack and 2 ghostly prison. Suppression field however does help with goblins. Blocks vial rather well.

Instead of being rude, I would suggest actually reading and letting the gears turn.

Dzra

07-05-2010, 04:30 PM

Suppression Field MD is a pretty interesting idea that I had been thinking about actually. It seems like most decks either run fetchlands or Aether Vials. I definitely wouldn't run them alongside Mishra's Factories though. I already think Factories are weak, SF just makes them more so.

klaus

07-06-2010, 07:19 AM

CRYSTAL BALL (http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=175915)

This card should be taken into consideration imo, since (and I think all of you would agree) consistency is THE issue when comes to Stax variants.

EDIT: Here's an experimental list featuring The Ball:

2 Crystal Ball
1 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Elspeth, Knight's Errant
2 Ajani Goldmane
1 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
2 Powder Keg
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrelvale
1 Maze of Ith
(-30-)

4 Mox Diamond
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
7 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
(-30-)

SB:
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Suppression Field
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 New "you have shroud" Leylines

Skeggi

07-06-2010, 07:21 AM

Yeah, there has been an SCD started by Infinitium here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18144-[SCD]-Crystal-Ball).

Dzra

07-06-2010, 01:29 PM

klaus, you have so many one-ofs and two-ofs and three-of Wastelands and Trinisphere? The only decks that can pull stuff like that are with Brainstorm and Ponder. Crystal Ball might be good, but it's definitely not that good.

Also, I think for Crystal Ball to be noticeable, we need at least three, maybe four.

Edit: I've been messing with this same build with Enlightened Tutors in place of Crystal Ball for a couple days now. I'm going to give Crystal Ball a try though.

Artifacts 21
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
3 Crucible Of Worlds
3 Crystal Ball

Creatures 5
3 Magus Of The Tabernacle
2 Baneslayer Angel

Other Spells 10
4 Armageddon
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Oblivion Ring

Land 24
5 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
4 Flagstones Of Trokair
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kor Haven

fertris

07-06-2010, 05:50 PM

:)

Leyline of Sanctity
2ww
Enchantment Rare
If Leyline of Sanctity is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it on the battlefield.

You can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control.

fertris

07-06-2010, 06:05 PM

My new test is with Knight of the Reliquary
Is really a great card, you can use it to get a wasteland to wastelock with, crucible, a tabernacle, mishra, ... any land you need, is really BIG with armageddon and with chalice@1 cant be killed easily

My current test deck is:

4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of traitors
4x Plains
2x Savannah
3x Wasteland
1x Kor Haven
1x Nomad Stadium
1x Tabernacle at Pendrell vale
3x Flagstones of trokair
1x Riftstone Portal
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Mishra's Factory

26 Lands

4 Mox Diamond
2 Engineered Explosives (Or 1 and 1 Oblivion Ring)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds

16 Artifacts

2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Knight of the reliquary
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

7 Creatures

4x Armageddon
4x Ghostly Prison
3x Story Circle

11 Other

I'm not sure if moat is a good card here, because i can only kill with baneslayer angel if i use moat

With green you can use krosan grip and choke in Sideboard

Dzra

07-07-2010, 01:16 PM

I feel like your manabase would have trouble consistently bringing out either KotR or Story Circle in a timely fashion. Over half of your mana base is colorless and you want 2 colored mana by the time you have access to 3 mana. I worry about dropping Smokestack also. This deck generally takes a long time to kill and without a hard lock, that gives them a lot of time to find answers to either your soft lock or your beaters.

antipode3141592

07-14-2010, 06:48 PM

I have started doing playtesting with the following build, utilizing Elspeth and Grim Monolith:

4x Trinisphere
4x Armageddon
4x Ghostly Prison
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Magus of the Tabernacle
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Elspeth, Knight Errant
3x Smokestack
4x Mox Diamond
4x Grim Monolith
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
5x Plains
3x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Ghost Quarter
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

The addition of Grim Monolith is a huge speed boost to the deck, allowing for more consistant turn one Trinispheres or Crucibles, as well as turn two Magus. Has anyone else found success adding in Grim Monoliths?

I decided to abandon the Baneslayer Angel route and stick with just Elspeth and Magus; Elspeth has a great amount of synergy with Smokestack, can create blockers, and is more difficult to remove than a Baneslayer. Any thoughts on this choice?

I've only been able to get a handful of games in via MWS thusfar but plan on getting a bunch of testing in sometime soon and will post my notes/thoughts.

Curby

07-14-2010, 06:59 PM

antipode3141592

07-14-2010, 07:26 PM

So how often do you untap Grim Monolith? If you tend to just use it once, then I start to wonder how much more useful it is than any other card that takes X mana and returns X+1. Your argument then isn't really for Grim Monolith, but for more mana acceleration in the deck.

I rarely untap the Grim Monolith, so yes, my core argument is that the deck needs just a little more acceleration. However, it does have the benefit of being an extra permanent that you can sacrifice to Smokestack. The other X => X+1 mana acceleration in the format is either off-color, a single-use spell, or is awkward with the deck construction (such as imprinting one of the few colored spells onto a Chrome Mox).

I had briefly tried running Metalworker, which is an incredible card, but dies to common removal such as Lightning Bolt, and the deck typically cannot support playing him until later in the game when you can set up a Trinisphere or Chalice of the Void set to one. I was stoked to be able to untap with an active Metalworker, but setting it up requires a lot of front-end work to make it reliable, whereas Grim Monolith just works.

Dzra

07-15-2010, 02:25 PM

Grim Monolith really doesn't provide much better acceleration than a Lotus Petal would. Petals are easier to cast and provide colored mana (sometimes lacking in this deck). Not to mention the following:

Consider a hand with 1 Flagstones, 1 Plains, 1 Wasteland, 2 Grim Monoliths, a Magus, and a Trinisphere. Probably keepable, but still slower than you'd want.

Now consider the same hand with Petals: 1 Flagstones, 1 Plains, 1 Wasteland, 2 Lotus Petals, a Magus, and a Trinisphere. Not only keepable, but you have multiple strong t1 plays.

That said, you could also use Elvish Spirit Guide and/or Simian Spirit Guide with Petals for even higher chance to pull off silly t1 plays.

The added bonus that you can sac a Grim Monolith later in the game just doesn't cut it for me. If I make the call that the deck needs more acceleration then I'm going to give it the best acceleration I can. Stax's main problem is consistency. The deck is just as likely to mull into oblivion as it is to give you a good t1 play and it's just as likely to draw you a land halfway through the game as it is a wincon/lock piece.

So do I solve consistency by adding more mana acceleration and upping my explosiveness or do I look for some sort of CA engine or filter (Crystal Ball/Sylvan Library/etc)?

I'd be very interested to see how a Stax deck packing Spirit Guides and Lotus Petals performed. Turn 1 Smokestack, Turn 2 Crucible seems pretty hot. On the other hand, I think a filter like Crystal Ball might be the safer route to take. In any event, I'll be playing around with both.

antipode3141592

07-15-2010, 02:59 PM

Yeah, Lotus Petal does seem like a fine choice if you just want to do bonkers turn one plays, but you'd probably have to run 4x Serum Powder for maximum explosive potential, when Stax isn't really an explosive deck.

After reading the past ten pages of posts and playing some more games on MWS, I believe that Crystal Ball is probably the better option here. I haven't had a chance to playtest it as of yet, but being able to Scry 2 every turn would have allowed me to blow past a glut of land that cost me a game. I'm going to switch to -4 Grim Monolith +3 Crystal Ball, +1 Oblivion Ring and see where that gets me.

Dzra

07-15-2010, 09:14 PM

Yeah, that'd be almost exactly like the list I'm working on now. Post back when you get some results.

antipode3141592

07-16-2010, 06:19 PM

Well, last night I played in a local legacy tournament in San Jose, CA and went 3-1 with the Grim Monolith build (because Crystal Ball wasn't legal until today):

Main Deck
4x Trinisphere
4x Armageddon
4x Ghostly Prison
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Magus of the Tabernacle
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Elspeth, Knight Errant
3x Smokestack
4x Mox Diamond
4x Grim Monolith
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
8x Plains
1x Ghost Quarter
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Sideboard
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Null Rod
3x Oblivion ring
2x Razormane Masticore
1x Karakas
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Round 1, vs New Horizons:
Game 1 - he countered all of my spells with Spell Spierces, Force of Will and Daze while beating me down with Goyf and Pridemage. At this point, I put him on playing Bant NO CounterTop, as I didn't see any Terravores, Stifles, or Knight of the Reliquary.
Game 2 - I keep a colored-mana-less hand and play Grim Monolith turn 1. he plays Misty Rainforest and passes. Turn 2 I play Crucible of Worlds, which is countered, and I play a 2nd Crucible after playing my land for the turn, which resolves. He plays a land and passes. I decide to cast Trinisphere instead of wastelanding his Tropical Island, which turns out to be a huge mistake, as next turn he casts a Terravore, followed by a Knight of the Reliquary. I definitely should have just Waste-locked him out of hitting three mana intead of playing Trinisphere.

We played a few more games afterwards, and I went 3-2. The games I lost were due to drawing terribly later in the game or keeping loose hands. Crystal Ball will definitely be a welcome addition to the deck. I found that Grim Monolith wasn't so much good for powering out ridiculous turn one plays as it is amazing at allowing you to play Smokestack or Magus of the Tabernacle on turn 2 with mana enough to avoid Daze and even Spell Pierce.

Round 2, vs Random-deck:
He's playing a deck revolving around Glimpse of Nature and 0 cmc guys... I play turn 2 Trinisphere both games.
1-1

Round 3, vs The Rock:
There wasn't much he could do, even with Duress and big guys. Establishing Magus + Armageddon with Mox Diamond on the field made game one a winner, even though he put me to 2 life. He sideboarded in a bunch of artifact/enchantment hate (krosan grips and something else from what i saw after the round) but saw none of it, as he opened with Treetop Village... I opened with City of Traitors into Grim Monolith, played Mox Diamond pitching Ghost Quarter and tapped out to play Lodestone Golem (I sided out 4x Trinisphere and sided in 4x Golem) with Wasteland in hand for turn 2. That was a short game.

Round 4, vs Merfolk:
Merfolk is a very thought intensive matchup, as you have to time everything to get around their Dazes and Wastelands, but at least you don't have to worry about Curse Catcher. If you are able to resolve one or two lock pieces, they are probably toast. Game 1 he had double Aether Vial, but was land light, so after baiting some Force of Wills with Crucible of Worlds and Smokestack, I was able to stick a Magus of the Tabernacle, which ground him to a dead halt. Armageddon followed by a Plains sealed the deal, but the game took nearly 30 minutes to resolve. Game three I sided out the Trinispheres for Null Rods to shut off his Jitte and Aether Vials. This paid off in huge dividends as he hit a lot of mutavaults that game which i was able to wasteland, and he again could not surmount the pressure of Magus of the Tabernacle.

Thoughts:
I am happy with the inclusion of Grim Monolith, but am wavering with Trinisphere. It's such a greatly powerful card, but it's pretty terrible when you are on the draw. Also, Crucible of Worlds was not as great as I wanted it to be. I basically just want to see one of them in a game, and typically not till later on. The Magus (as you all know) is a rockstar in the deck, so I want to add an additional Tabernacle effect. Ghostly Prison was also a very strong card in the build. Has anyone tried playing with Windborn Muse? It seems like it might be ok. Heck, it even flys, so it can block Trigon Predator all day. Finally, Elspeth, while amazing, is probably only a two of in the deck. I'm thinking of the following testing modifications:

Maindeck
-4 Trinisphere
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Elspeth
+3 Crystal Ball
+1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
+2 Windborn Muse

Sideboard
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Null Rod
3x Trinisphere
1x Karakas
3x Powder Keg or Relic of Progenitus

Thoughts?

AggroSteve

07-16-2010, 07:26 PM

i played the crystal ball in the prerelease, and it was awesome, and it could be just the thing staxx needs to become a little more consistent

its been quite a time since last i played staxx, and i would love to know what everyone is thinking about grim monoliths unbanning, does he really deserve a slot in the deck, i mean do we really need more accelleration?, but i will definitely get some more copies of crystal ball, and see where i can fit them

what i found interesting, well since it was quite some time, i had anything to do with staxx, i was wandering what happened to the oblivion rings, were they dismissed the moment quasali pridemage was printed, or is there any other reason i can not think about right now?

could you please give me a short summary of what happened in the white staxx world in the last year ( i know its a bit much asked )

i would really appreciate it

Dzra

07-17-2010, 02:52 AM

I really wouldn't cut Trinisphere. It makes Force of Will and Daze cost three regardless of their alternate costs. For a deck with permission, it is a must-counter if they want to counter anything again.

I've also come to like Suppression Field over Damping Matrix (which I used in place of Null Rod). Suppression Field is just too good against tri-colored decks. T1 Suppression field is almost game for Zoo. They have to draw two non-fetchlands just to use a fetch. Good luck with that! It also hits Aether Vial, Pridemage, and a whole host of other problem cards.

If I had a The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale I'd definitely use it. ;p

I also don't like your graveyard hate. I prefer Faerie Macabre, but Tormod's Crypt and Leyline of the Void are good too.

How do you like Powder Kegs? They seem like they could be useful against Zoo, but I'm not sure what I'd want to side out for them.

As a wincon, I'm torn between Baneslayers, Elspeth, and Gideon. I've been using Baneslayer for the most part because I really hate how creatures can skip right over Ghostly Prison to smack planeswalkers.

mercc

07-18-2010, 08:45 AM

Noman Peopled

07-18-2010, 10:01 AM

Well, the problem with stax is it's draw right? Multiple crucibles and trinispheres is like shooting yourself in the head, unless they counter it ofcourse and you need another one.

So enlightened tutor can make you run less and tutor the one's you need.

But with a hand of:
Tomb/traitor, plains, e.tutor, chalice + 3 cards

You are on the play, what do you do?
Well, what are the three cards? Do I know what I'm up against? Pre- or post-board - if post-board, what silver bullets do I have? Do I have City or Tomb?

If
- no knowledge of what I'm up against
- Ancient Tomb in hand
then:
- t1 Tomb, Chalice
It's at least acceptable against so many decks. I'd definitely do that if I had some creature control as that would mean Zoo is basically dead if they don't draw solutions and I draw any gas - and I have relevant things to do against Merfolk anyway.
Against blue-based decks in general, I'd be cutting off cantrips that would help them draw into counterspells or other solutions to my lock pieces. If Chalice gets countered, they've lost two cards and I can go tutor for Chalice next turn or play 3sphere if I have it. If they're playing combo it's important to cut them off fast mana as well as cantrips anyway.
So, while I'm unable to plan against a specific deck, I can be pretty sure Chalice does something. Only few tutor targets are really viable at that point, as quite a few could miss completely. If I have a legitimate t2 and t3 play, I'm not gonna care about one dead card so early in the game.

If, however, I had City instead of Tomb, I' wouldn't ever want to screw myself out of three mana t2. Lead with Plains, ETutor during their turn (if they fetch for blue, in response to the activation to prevent dazing).

GoldenCid

07-18-2010, 11:03 AM

@antipode: I have a few questions...how did you feel with the removal efect of o-ring md?? Runing elspeth, would be proper to run at least one copy of moat??
And why did you run 4 geddons and no flagstones??

Curby

07-18-2010, 11:32 AM

Thanks for the report, antipode. What positive influence did you see from Elspeth during the night? You never mentioned her strengths, and indeed thought about reducing her to two. What about replacing her with something like the Golem, and keeping the fourth Crucible to recur lands with Stax?

I also found it odd that you were taking out Trinispheres. Like the others said it's just too damn strong on the play, and you can always side it out (like you seemed to) if it wouldn't be as powerful during a game.

Are you really considering a total of 6 Tabernacle effects in the deck? That seems really high. I wonder if your money wouldn't be better spent getting a Ravages and having 5 Geddon effects.

I also like Suppression Field because it's fast enough to drop T1 and affects other card types. The fact that it doesn't totally prevent them from using the ability is less relevant to me: between land destruction, Tabernacle effects, and Prison effects they likely won't have much mana anyway.

If Windborn was 2/4 or maybe even 1/4 I'd more seriously consider her, but despite our Trinispheres and Chalices I'm really hesitant to use boltable critters. IMHO 4 Prison effects should be enough in the deck, especially if we use Balls/Tutors.

Re: Tutors, I'm starting to think that the poor synergy between Chalice and Tutor isn't that big of a deal. 4 times out of 5 I'd still play the Chalice first and sit on the Tutor until Chalice is removed. 1-drops are just too important in Legacy for (most) people to leave a Chalice around. I think I may try adding two each of Tutor and Ball into the deck. For those running full sets of Crucible, Smokestack, Ghostly Prison, Magus, and Trinisphere, those are obvious considerations for removal. As an upshot, we can probably get by with only 2-3 Suppression Fields in the side, and replace the Crystal Balls with them when appropriate. We'd still have Tutors for fetching them, though the chances of laying one on T1 is reduced.

Consistency involves having many copies of each spell. Burn is just about guaranteed to open with some bolts because they run 16-20 of them in the deck. That's damn consistent. What we're seeing is that we will increasingly have fewer copies of each spell because we need to fit different cards into the deck. If we really want to be able to have the right card at the right time, ETutor is pretty much the only thing that will give us that. Crystal Ball by itself will help, but digging for a 1-of or 2-of in a 50-card pile will still take forever. As a bonus, Tutors and Ball help search for each other.

Loki

08-20-2010, 06:07 PM

Hey Guys, since nobody seems to write anything new in my most favorite thread, i decided to brake the silence and introduce my deck.

creature [5]
2 Baneslayer Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

sorcery [4]
4 Armageddon

enchantment [6]
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Oblivion Ring

artifact [20]
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

land [25]
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Plains
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Aura of Silence
3 Choke
2 Karmic Justice
2 Sphere of Law
2 Suppression Field
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

As you can see, i play a rather conservative build, but in my oppinion you can´t cut down the number of your lock pieces, like trinisphere. Recently, i have been quite successfull (very lucky as my friends were telling me ;) ), here are the links to the top 8 for you, so you can check out my enimies as well.
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Sommermercadiade+2010 //
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Gro%DFes+Legacy+im+Spieleland+Hamburg+August%2F10

Well, thats it from my side. I hope this will revieve this thread, because it would be a pity to loose the best place for discusing my most favorite deck!

sdematt

08-20-2010, 08:23 PM

I think Stax has a place in the Meta now, as aggro is slowly becoming more popular.

But, many people are finding it doesn't usually have the answers when you need them, so to speak. You're usually ending up playing with the hand you draw, and you don't have much gas/card draw throughout the game. Top is out of the question, since its CMC is one, but Crystal Ball was discussed. I've been trying the Ball out, and I've found it to be quite decent.

4 Ancient Tomb
1 Tabernacle
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 City of Traitors
1 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Wasteland
8 Plains

4 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Baneslayer Angel

4 Ghostly Prison
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Armageddon
3 Smokestack
3 Elspeth, Knight Errant
3 Trinisphere
3 Crystal Ball

Sideboard:

4 Suppression Field
2 Moat
2 Humility
3 Choke
4 Leyline of Sanctity

I know the deck is 62, so I'd need to cut one to two of the spells, but I'm raising my point here: I think we can all agree ~25 lands is the way to go, and certain cards must be a 4-of: Crucible, Mox Diamond, Chalice of the Void, and I think Ghostly Prison. Armageddon I've found I always get enough of them with 3 in the deck, and the same with Smokestack. I usually don't want to see multiples in a game. Also, Trinisphere doesn't need to be 4, even though it's good. They don't stack, unfortunately, otherwise I'd play 5-7 of them :P

The Crystal ball allows you to cheat your draws, and I've really like it whenever I've gotten it online. It allows you to filter through your stuff. The ghost quarter is there for me wasting my won stuff to search for a basic, and also for hard-locking your opponent with a Crucible lock. Horizon Canopy is there also as a Draw engine: you can keep reusing it with Crucible.

Let me know what you guys think.

-Matt

Noman Peopled

08-21-2010, 05:43 AM

Well, I can't really comment much as I've been out of touch and haven't played Stax in forever, but I always found Smokestack to be one of the strongest cards in the deck. I basically solidifies any slight tempo edge you might have and is fully capable of keeping an opponent locked down without Crucible. It also becomes better the earlier you play it (provided you have either Crucible, enough three-drops to satisfy it for a few turns, or four mana) since your opponent's choices will be much more limited. I would cut a second Geddon before my first Smokestack.

Loki

08-21-2010, 06:21 AM

In my oppion you should cut the Elspeth, because your ghostly prisons arent´t protecting her, also together with banslayer you have 5 cards, which you don´t want to have in your oppining hand.
Both armageddon and smokestack are in my oppion just to strong to be played less than 4 times main.
I can understand the arguments that cards like cristall ball, are good in helping you draw the right cards, but to put them into action costs you time and ressources, which are needed to bring lock pieces into position.
My main argument against them is, that they are decreasing my chances of having a broken starting hand, because I always want three mana and trinisphere first turn and than more lock pieces on hand to incresase the lock.
Multible trinispheres not really good, but you can always just sack them to an active smokestack, if you haven´t got a crucible in play yet.
Multible smokestacks can be good, just sack the active smokestack to itself and let your second one stay on zero counters until your oppenent starts to play lands again, this is exspecially good, if you already have a trinisphere in play, but no crucible.

OneBigSquirrelGod

08-22-2010, 01:18 PM

In my oppion you should cut the Elspeth, because your ghostly prisons arent´t protecting her, also together with banslayer you have 5 cards, which you don´t want to have in your oppining hand.

Agreed. Magus and ghostly prison work great together, as does Elspeth and moat. You should not cross boundaries between traditional white Stax and dutch Stax.

Both armageddon and smokestack are in my oppion just to strong to be played less than 4 times main.

Disagree. Smokestacks should not be a 4 of in the deck. It is one of the most powerful cards in the deck, but sometimes drawing multiples is bad for business.

[QUOTE=Loki;482676
I can understand the arguments that cards like cristall ball, are good in helping you draw the right cards, but to put them into action costs you time and ressources, which are needed to bring lock pieces into position.
My main argument against them is, that they are decreasing my chances of having a broken starting hand, because I always want three mana and trinisphere first turn and than more lock pieces on hand to incresase the lock.
Multible trinispheres not really good, but you can always just sack them to an active smokestack, if you haven´t got a crucible in play yet.
Multible smokestacks can be good, just sack the active smokestack to itself and let your second one stay on zero counters until your oppenent starts to play lands again, this is exspecially good, if you already have a trinisphere in play, but no crucible.[/QUOTE]

I haven't played stax in over a year now, but I can say that Crystal Ball deserves a spot in the deck, at least as a 2 of. Most good builds only run 3 Trinispheres MD, because multiples are bad to get. Crystal Ball serves as a great mechanic to filter through unwanted lands and repeated cards, such as Trinisphere, multiple crucibles, depending on match up, ghostly prison, etc. Stax is a control deck, most of the time you will play the deck against other good decks, you are not trying to lock them with 4 stacks by turn 3, and so on and so forth. The lock is gradual, and each decks you need specific cards to lock them out with. You don't want to win in 10-15 minutes with the deck (although sometimes you have to). You want the delayed 35-40 minute wins, because there is so much hate in the format against the deck (artifact/land base), that it is usually the goal to stall game 1, to draw game 2, so you can get the win (sounds dickish, but it is the strategies of the pro's).

Note: I am not a moderator, but please abuse the auto spell check on your posts (confuzin shtuff duwde)...

sdematt

08-22-2010, 02:04 PM

Don't forget Elspeth craps tokens for Smokestack in case you don't have Crucible, and allows you to win the game with a Magus.

-Matt

Curby

08-23-2010, 12:45 PM

Magus wins the game already if you have recurring Wasteland or Geddon or Smokestack, and we've already got 10-12 of those in the deck. Elspeth also adds WW costs to the deck, which can be hard to bear. Yes it works well with Smokestack, but boosting synergies while also adding conflicts isn't a good idea.

Something like Crystal Ball fills an obvious need in the deck without directly conflicting with our other cards. Elspeth helps us exploit some cards that we already exploit, but she doesn't help us get the cards we need, and she creates other problems.

Curby

08-28-2010, 04:45 AM

Double-posting to idle thread according to site rules. I posted this somewhere else, but would like feedback from a wider audience:

I've been continuing to think more about the two "flex creature slots" in the deck (see my previous thoughts here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=148066&page=28)). When I think about what the deck needs to improve more than anything else, it's getting the right card at the right time. The answer to this problem is also the most ignored options: Knight of the Reliquary and Crystal Ball. Here's my attempt to integrate both:

Mana (29)
4 Mox Diamond
4 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Nomad Stadium

Support (8)
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Crystal Ball
2 Knight of the Reliquary

Lock Pieces (23)
4 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere
2 Oblivion Ring

First of all, I considered the ramifications of the Knight. Compared to the most popular option of Angels, he can get bigger, but he has to fight through the ground war, he doesn't offer life gain, and he's dependent on the splash. The last problem will have to be tested to see how bad it really is. Lifegain can be achieved by tutoring/recurring Nomad Stadium, though we'd really rather be doing something else with our time. With regards to fighting on land, it's a lot less likely to give accidental wins like Exalted Angel can, but he's still very capable as a late-game finisher after you've wiped the board. Quick note about win-more: it's absolutely necessary when piloting Stax in competitive play. Getting a lock is not the same as winning the entire match within the allotted time.

The real reason he's even being considered is the tutor/toolbox capability. I can see that finding Flagstones, Wasteland, Factory, Canopy, Karakas, and Stadium can all be very useful plays depending on the circumstances. The fact that the tutored land comes into play normally (usually untapped) is just amazing, and can result in surprise mana and effects that will be hard to anticipate. Out of the side, Bojuka Bog can be added to the toolbox for attacking yards. The problem is that the mana cost combined with the summoning sickness results in middle to late game tutoring. Still significant, but I can see it sometimes being too little too late. Testing will tell.

The other obvious difference in my list is the addition of three Crystal Balls. To fit them, I took out an Oblivion Ring, a Trinisphere, and a Crucible. I feel worst about the Trinisphere and Crucible. Crucible plays a major role in the deck, and reducing the chances of getting that capability is extremely dangerous. On the other hand, it's not useful in multiples, the need for it is slightly diminished by Knight's tutoring, and the Balls help find the three remaining copies. As for Trinisphere, I've always run four. It's our best first turn play against pretty much any deck in the format, multiples are nice to protect against removal such as Pridemages and Grips, and multiples can be used as more food for Smokestack. The problem with cutting one is that you want to see it early, whereas Crucible can come online later and still have a large effect on the game.

Overall, this is the closest I've seen anyone come to actually trying to solve the problem of getting the wrong cards. The added dependence on a color splash is an obvious concern, as is the decreased speed because we're spending mana and time on permanents that don't directly lock down the board. The ultimate question is whether these downsides outweigh the benefits of Scrying and tutoring to help us draw the right card at the right time. Hopefully I'll be able to sleeve this up and get some playtesting in to see how it compares to a more traditional 2-Angel build.

(If we're going this route anyway, having a Tabernacle land somewhere in the 75 makes a LOT of sense. Unfortunately, I don't have one.)

P.S. Lands found in recent top finishers from deckcheck:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Av1HyANgStffdG5WaHR2d1RUZlBEZF9ueFhFMTFpN0E&hl=en&authkey=CN-7-ZgF

P.P.S. I notice that this land distribution gives me more white mana than almost any other Stax deck, which should be great for World Queller or Angels. I need more green, but running fewer than 4 basic Plains seems strange to me.

paeng4983

08-30-2010, 11:15 PM

we just had our Philippine Legacy Open wherein i used White_stax (3-3-1)
i managed to win against slivers,dredge and BGw rock.
lost to GW aggro, naya zoo and URg fae. draw with another fae-punishing fire deck.

i just used the straight white stax deck.
i had the opportunity to include the crystall ball and magus tabernacle but i opted not too
because it will not help me in locking my opponent's board and as regards with magus, well
i felt then that chipping my opponent's life by two pts at a time- i might not be able to get the win needed.
so i went exalted angel instead in my MD and put golem in the SB.
:P

*cheers everyone! enjoy the beauty of locking

Curby

08-30-2010, 11:27 PM

paeng4983

08-31-2010, 03:51 AM

It seems that your aggro matchups could have been helped by Magus. Not only does he prevent the buildups of large armies, he's also a very capable blocker. Having had this experience, have you considered adding him back in? How many Angels and Golems did you use? What did your sideboard look like? The more details the better. =) Thanks!

magus should have been great. :)
next legacy tournament, i'll definietely
replace the angels with magus

i used 3 angels in my MD.
2 golems were in the SB.

i normally bring-in the golems against blue base decks.

my sb cards were:
4 suppression field
4 relic of progenitus
2 loadstone golem
3 oblivion ring
2 Day of judgement

how does yours?
thanks.
:)

ns2973

08-31-2010, 05:02 PM

overseer1234

09-01-2010, 12:51 AM

Now i played stax when workshop was still in the format. Forgive me if i'm not up to date on the newest versions, but here is my question.

In a format like ours where there are turn 1 kills in TES, early drops from aggro on the draw etc. why haven't we tried sphere of resistance? (if this has been vetted and i missed it forgive me)

It feels to me like while it isn't as strong a play, it's a pretty easy t1 drop as compared to trini, is actually useful in multiples AND is useful late game. For me at least, it feels like that without workshops to drop trini t1 reliably, shouldn't we be looking to either switch to spheres or at least go with a 2/2 split?

Just a thought.

To be honnest I have been thinking the same thing, but the problem here is (I think) that sphere of resistance is just to symetrycal when compares to trinisphere...

The only thing trini has anny effect on in this deck is chalice for 1 (if it's not allready on the field) and mox diamond, which i neglible since when you can cast trini you can pretty much cast annything in the deck...

ns2973

09-01-2010, 10:09 AM

I'm going to playtest it. I think the increased chance of a t1 drop and late game (if we have to) playability outweighs the trini.

I'll try it out some and let you know what i find.

Ryoku

09-01-2010, 12:49 PM

ns2973

09-01-2010, 12:57 PM

The main problem with sphere of resistance is that it's way too linear. Unlike in Vintage, we don't have the ability to abuse Mishra's Workshop in order to break the synergy, and Ancient Tombs won't quite cut it, in my experience.

I get where you are going. Again when i have some testing stats i'll post them so the stax players can see. Realistically though conceptually i disagree with the linear nature of the card. While it does indeed slow us down, i don't think it's fair to say that it will affect our ramp in a similar way to the other decks in the format.

When i look around, i see merfolk, goblins, TES, and other decks that use little acceleration that is a land. We use ancient tomb's, traitors, can drop mox diamond first to leverage that sphere to hamper our opponent far more than ourselves. While i realize that it is a more linear option than say trinisphere, i think and hope in testing it will bear out that the increased probability of a turn 1 drop will prevent mass mulligan against our worst matchups.

The real question becomes, is the linear pain of the sphere more of a disadvantage than the increased t1 drop ratio, value in multiples, and late game playability is an advantage?

ns2973

09-01-2010, 03:24 PM

Ok, so i tested this deck with 200 starting hands. 100 with trinisphere, 100 with sphere of resistance, here are the results:

Now for this test i am testing reliability in turn 1 soft lock pieces, thats it. It could completely cripple your hand, and ruin your late game, what i was looking for was an average amount of turn 1 lock pieces to help us build stability. I'll test actual matchup variances between the two decks as well, but i found some interesting data i thought you guys might be interested in.

For this test i used the following build

Artifacts 20
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

Creatures 5
3 Magus Of The Tabernacle
2 Baneslayer Angel

Other Spells 11
4 Armageddon
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring

Land 24
5 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
4 Flagstones Of Trokair
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kor Haven

For what i call consistency, again i only count turn 1 soft lock pieces. This includes a chalice for 1, one of the spheres, ghostly prison, smokestack or magus. I looked at each hand and just tested if i had a t1 drop of a soft lock piece or i didn't. Again, this doens't mean they were amazing plays, i'm just looking at which gives us a consistent turn 1 lock play.

First, deck replacing trinisphere with sphere of resistance

56 turn 1 soft lock plays
44 no turn 1 lock plays

or pretty much a 50/50 shot of dropping a lock piece on turn 1.

The more telling of the two, trinisphere current build

34 turn 1 soft lock plays
66 no turn 1 lock plays

Of those 66 no turn 1 locks, if sphere of resistance were in the deck instead of trini, you would have had an additional 15 turn 1 lock plays.

So out of 200 hands, it seems that there is a 15-20% better chance of having turn one play that involves a lock piece if you replace trinisphere with sphere of resistance. That to me is pretty damn substantial. So now is the important part, do you think a 20% increase in the odds of playing a lock piece turn 1 WORTH the more linear play of the sphere of resistance? I feel like it merits legitimate playtesting to see if it could increase the consistency without crippling us.

What do you think?

Curby

09-01-2010, 04:01 PM

my sb cards were:
4 suppression field
4 relic of progenitus
2 loadstone golem
3 oblivion ring
2 Day of judgement

You said you used a "standard" white list, but you don't really seem to be using a standard build, which uses Magi and ORings maindeck. Would you mind posting your maindeck, or showing the changes (+/-) from a more standard deck like ns2973's just above?

RE: side, Relic is weird. Given that Stax is a yard-dependent deck, it seems like you'd want something like Tormod's Crypt to just wipe their yard without affecting yours. Do you use Relic for the extra card and just play around its downside, or was that choice made due to a lack of availability of Crypts?

sphere of resistance?

Why is Trinisphere considered poor in the late-game? Many Legacy spells are cheap. Even if they're able to stabilize and restart casting spells, having to greatly increase mana costs from 1-2 to 3 mana is extremely significant. This isn't Standard which ramps up to 5-6-cost spells.

I find that I'm often wanting to get lock pieces out more quickly; Smokestack, Magus, Geddon, and the other 4-drops aren't by any means easy to cast, even for us. Some have even shied away from Baneslayer Angel due to her need for 5 mana. Upping these to 5- and 6-drops respectively seems very dangerous.

Get back to basics: what's our actual goal? If it's simply the ability to drop more turn 1 lock pieces, additional acceleration is another avenue. I'm not sure that we want cards like Grim Monolith, but it would allow us to retain the use of the superior (IMO) Trinisphere while also increasing first turn lock piece drops.

ns2973

09-01-2010, 05:49 PM

Why is Trinisphere considered poor in the late-game? Many Legacy spells are cheap. Even if they're able to stabilize and restart casting spells, having to greatly increase mana costs from 1-2 to 3 mana is extremely significant. This isn't Standard which ramps up to 5-6-cost spells.

I find that I'm often wanting to get lock pieces out more quickly; Smokestack, Magus, Geddon, and the other 4-drops aren't by any means easy to cast, even for us. Some have even shied away from Baneslayer Angel due to her need for 5 mana. Upping these to 5- and 6-drops respectively seems very dangerous.

Get back to basics: what's our actual goal? If it's simply the ability to drop more turn 1 lock pieces, additional acceleration is another avenue. I'm not sure that we want cards like Grim Monolith, but it would allow us to retain the use of the superior (IMO) Trinisphere while also increasing first turn lock piece drops.

I believe that trinisphere loses some of it's effectiveness late game. My personal belief is that a turn 1 sphere of resistance is just as much a time walk as a trinisphere is, only 20% more likely to happen. Also again, if a sphere is in play, a topdecked sphere isn't a dead draw like an additional trinisphere would be.

While i agree we want to get lock pieces out more quickly, i don't think diluting the "lock base" by adding accel in the form of grim is the way to go. I played stax pretty exclusively for a long time and what i learned was this, if we lose, it's due to bad draws and the early game. If we can stabilize to mid-late game, we have a favorable matchup. It is with this assumption in mind that i advocate sphere of resistance.

Again, this isn't playtested to the level where i'll say it's superior, but i think if we can speed up the lock process without diluting the lock pieces, allowing us to slow the tempo down, WE ramp faster than the average opponent and have mid to late game advantage. So i'm willing to wait till 5 for smokestack or geddon.

My goal for stax is to lock quickly. Legacy is a quick meta and without fast lock pieces, we get hurt. Those quick lock pieces buy us time to stabilize against aggro decks AND give us the stability to have greater turn 1 lock effeciency.

Just throwin out ideas. Hell i REALLY want to find a way to sneak welder in and i REALLY want to make room for 2 winter orb. It's just SO sick.

Curby

09-01-2010, 07:19 PM

I believe that trinisphere loses some of it's effectiveness late game. My personal belief is that a turn 1 sphere of resistance is just as much a time walk as a trinisphere is, only 20% more likely to happen. Also again, if a sphere is in play, a topdecked sphere isn't a dead draw like an additional trinisphere would be.

Multiple Spheres work in concert wonderfully, but they work in concert against us as well. Two Spheres or one Trinisphere would both make Spell Pierce cost 3, but Trinisphere doesn't simultaneously make Armageddon cost 6. Also, while a first turn Sphere of Resistance may be likened to a Timewalk, a T1 Trinisphere could be two of them. Of course, that assumes that it lands. =)

One additional strike against Trinisphere is that it's already somewhat redundant since we use Chalice. Chalice is most likely to hit cards with CMC of 0, 1, or 2, but Trinisphere preys on the same cards. What Chalice doesn't hit are alternate casting cost spells such as FoW. Of the three, Trinisphere is the most powerful against FoW.

I wonder about your statistic that SoR is 20% more likely to land: I think it could actually be a lot more. Do you still have the numbers from your testing? Did you separate out which lock piece was cast each time? If you're just comparing the chances of a Trinisphere vs a SoR landing T1, you may find that SoR is 2x or 3x as likely to land turn 1. These results are actually diluted by the other lock pieces that you could conceivably cast. I agree that the aggregate numbers are useful as well, but I'm wondering what just comparing SoR to Trinisphere gives us.

keys

09-01-2010, 07:29 PM

Has anyone here tested Crystal Ball in the O-Ring spot? A friend of mine tried it out and had some extremely positive results.

Edit: nevermind, checked a few pages back.

Antonius

09-01-2010, 07:59 PM

Has anyone here tested Crystal Ball in the O-Ring spot? A friend of mine tried it out and had some extremely positive results.

Edit: nevermind, checked a few pages back.

and who would that be, brian?

paeng4983

09-01-2010, 08:44 PM

hello there! :)
over the span of 4 days, i testplayed with 7 of my friends
(burn, aeon bridge, dredge, bant_tempo, rock, urg_fae and gw_aggro)
using this deck, although i replaced trinisphere with SOR. here's the list that i used:

Artifacts 21
4 Chalice Of The Void
3 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Winter Orb

Creatures 3
3 Magus of The Tabernacle

Other Spells 11
4 Armageddon
4 Ghostly Prison

Land 25
6 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Tabernacle Pendrel Vale

here are my results:
vs. burn
stax wont have a problem with this kind of opponent.
COTV at 1, together with SOR were too much for him.
he can't even kill magus tabernacle because of its 2/6 status.
we played for 5 games in which i won 4 times.
i had to admit that there were times that i wish
i had trinisphere on the table instead of SOR because they can still
afford to pay the extra mana off the soft lock unlike with
trinisphere in which they will really find themselves in a pit.
my lone lost came from the unearth ability of hellspark
elemental. by the way, winter orb really rocks in this game!

vs. gw_aggro
whenever im using stax, GW combination is the color
combination that i hate most because of it has a lot of
love in its MD and in its SB. we played like 7 or eight games
in which he won like 50% plus one. (i really cannot recall how
many time we played). qasali pridemage and G.teeg in his MD,
both really kick our ass. a 1st turn SOR is a strong move but
accompanying it with his wastelands destroying your non
basic lands (especially the accel ones), damn
i hate that when it happens.

vs. dredge
SOR works just the same as trinisphere here especially when you
dropped SOR during your 1st turn. then followed by another SOR
in your 2nd or 3rd turn, surely - you are on your way in winning game one.
just pray hard enough to your god that your opponent will not go off
during the early part the game especially if you haven't dropped any threat yet.
:D after sideboarding for games two and or three, dredge players find it hard
to pay the extra mana cost off either SOR or trinisphere's lock ability.

vs. aeon bridge
whoever plays a strong 1st two turns controls/ wins the game.
and that what happened here. he'd go like 1st turn petal, land
dreadnaught plus stifle. and after that game, on my 1st turn i'd
go like ancient tomb + COTV 1 or SOR. he rarely complete his combo
dreadnaught, ability on the stack, mosswort triggers, cast emrakul,
maybe because of the plus at the casting cost or because of COTV
at one or maybe because i kept on destroying his mosswort off my
wasteland. i won like 60-70% of the games we played.also, there were
times that winter orb was helpful. :D

vs. bant_tempo
just like GW aggro, bant_tempo has a bunch of MD love for us.
and heading to game two and or three, he'll bring-in more love
for us to enjoy. :) krosan, teeg, naturalize, zealots were just
some of the things that he used during our testplay. men that hurts.
in this game, multiple SOR on the table were not as good as we are discussing here.
as what happend to my case with this match up, i had 3 SOR on the table
and i needed THREE more mana just to cast ghostly. and whenever i was like
a mana short away, he'd destroy any of my non basic land with his wasteland.
maybe im not that patient enough as ns2973, because with trinisphere after
resolving an armageddon, you'll just need three mana to cast ghostly prison
unlike with SOR, you'll need six.

vs urg_fae
game one, i believe, we will have an 80% chance of winning it. here i go again,
dropping an early SOR is not that helpful because he'll just pay ONE then he can
successfully cast his spell (in our case a turn two brainstorm in which he was able to
find his 3rd and 4th land) unlike with trinisphere.

vs.BGw_ rock
pernicious deeds will really kick us out if it resolves. not to mention vindicate.
well in this particular game, i appreciate SOR because if you'll have a trinisphere
on the table, he'll just cast that 3cc vindicate or P.deeds that destroys whatever he
likes on your side. but if you have SOR, especially if they are in 2 or 3 on your table,
he'll be having a hard time of casting his deeds or vindicate.
:D

*im not saying here that trinisphere is much better than SOR, its just a case to case basis.
maybe, just maybe, im still not that comfortable with SOR. maybe i need more testplays
in order for me to adopt with SOR's synergy with my playing style.

*cheers to everyone here!
by the way, are there anyone else who testplayed white_stax using SOR instead of trinisphere?
thanks!

:D :D :D :cool:

paeng4983

09-01-2010, 08:44 PM

(double post)
i just deleted the content.
sorry

ns2973

09-02-2010, 08:58 AM

Multiple Spheres work in concert wonderfully, but they work in concert against us as well. Two Spheres or one Trinisphere would both make Spell Pierce cost 3, but Trinisphere doesn't simultaneously make Armageddon cost 6. Also, while a first turn Sphere of Resistance may be likened to a Timewalk, a T1 Trinisphere could be two of them. Of course, that assumes that it lands. =)

One additional strike against Trinisphere is that it's already somewhat redundant since we use Chalice. Chalice is most likely to hit cards with CMC of 0, 1, or 2, but Trinisphere preys on the same cards. What Chalice doesn't hit are alternate casting cost spells such as FoW. Of the three, Trinisphere is the most powerful against FoW.

I wonder about your statistic that SoR is 20% more likely to land: I think it could actually be a lot more. Do you still have the numbers from your testing? Did you separate out which lock piece was cast each time? If you're just comparing the chances of a Trinisphere vs a SoR landing T1, you may find that SoR is 2x or 3x as likely to land turn 1. These results are actually diluted by the other lock pieces that you could conceivably cast. I agree that the aggregate numbers are useful as well, but I'm wondering what just comparing SoR to Trinisphere gives us.

Yeah, it may not work out in testing. This is just pure theory at this point. the 15-20% number is the % increase that the deck will play a lock piece turn 1. so it will go up to around 25% increased ability to play t1 if 3phere is replaced with SoR. I didn't separate the numbers unfortunately but will happily test further. The purpose of this was just to see if more debate is merited based on a significant increase in consistency of turn 1 lock piece.

Yeah, it hurts that geddon and magus become six, but again i feel that making spells cost more across the board heightens our advantage, not dilutes it. Allowing us to draw more cards and make pernicious deed cost 4-5 doesn't hurt AT ALL. We pack more ways to access mana in multiples than any other deck out there really, tombs and city's and crucibles give us a huge advantage in that we can play more 2 mana lands than they have, effectively ramping us even further than our opponents.

I'm going to build this deck in the next week or so and do some serious playtesting, stax has always been my favorite, and while i never feel we'll fix the draw/consistency issue, it's still some of the most fun in the game.

I get why people moved away from tanglewire, but why not play winter orb? Is there any particular reason?

Curby

09-02-2010, 09:36 AM

Again, too symmetrical. We don't have a way of tapping or bouncing Orb to ensure that we're not affected by it. There's Mox and 2-lands, but our spells cost a lot too so it's still rather even.

Also, better to destroy the land (run a 5th Geddon effect if you need more) than to merely tap it. End of Turn Pridemage will ruin Orb's plan. I'm more pessimistic about Winter Orb than I am about SoR.

ns2973

09-02-2010, 09:47 AM

Yeah, i was just considering the idea of the synergy of worb with magus and spheres.

I'm going to test the currently accepted build for about a week and then test a hybrid build running sphere as well. We'll see what shakes out.

Curby

09-02-2010, 11:00 AM

It's often good to start with the accepted build before attempting to make changes, esp. if it's been some time since you've worked with the build. It lets you familiarize yourself with the common baseline to see what changes are necessary, so I'm glad you're going that route.

My meta is somewhere between casual and nonexistent, so I can't do too much testing. Thanks for sharing the results you get. =)

Alcibiades

09-03-2010, 12:47 AM

Sphere of Resistance is an excellent sideboard card, but it should never, never, never replace Trinisphere in the maindeck.

The reason is simple: this isn't Vintage. You don't have constant access to enormous amounts of mana, so the additional 1 ends up mattering a lot, especially against aggro. Having to pay 4W for Magus of the Tabernacle and 3W for Ghostly Prison makes the aggro matchup a lot harder than it needs to be. (Trust me; I have lost games with Sphere out *precisely because* I couldn't afford to cast these spells.) Admittedly, the aggro player will have to spend more for his guys, too. But aggro's best plan against Stax is not to dump tons of guys per turn anyway. Aggro beats Stax when it gets two substantial creatures down, protects them, and keeps enough mana open to attack through a Ghostly Prison and/or pay for Magus taxes. One can easily do that with a Sphere out. You just end up hurting yourself in a situation like that.

Sphere is also quite bad against non-storm combo decks like Imperial Servant. You don't solve any long-term problems by making them pay 2 for a Grindstone or a Goblin Welder and 3 for a Painter's Servant. To do that, you need to cast Chalice of the Void for 1, or Smokestack, or Armageddon, but each of those things gets harder to do--and often impossible to do--when you have a Sphere out.

There's also the general problem of math. You can easily make careless, game-defining arithmetical errors with a Sphere out, especially when you're trying to play around spells like Daze and Spell Pierce. Of course, as before, the same will hold for your opponent. But most decks are more forgiving of such mistakes than Stax is. Stax players encounter numerous turns per game in which they absolutely *must* resolve some key spell in order to survive. Failing to do so because you played Sphere of Resistance turn 1 is a real pain. (Again, trust me on this.)

Lastly, it must be noted that you often want to cast Chalice for 2, but if you do so, then you can't play Sphere of Resistance. Obviously that's not a problem for Sphere of Resistance per se, but a general problem for 2-mana spells. But you should always try to make Chalice's (and Trinisphere's) effect as asymmetrical as possible.

Honestly, the only Legacy decks against which I routinely want to cast Sphere of Resistance are storm-combo decks. Having twelve turn-1 bombs (4 Spheres, 4 Chalices, and 4 Trinispheres) instead of eight is a real lifesaver, especially if you lose the coin-toss game 1. But against everything else, I'd rather just run more utility spells or things like Crystal Ball (which is very good, by the way).

Noman Peopled

09-05-2010, 12:59 PM

I think the gist of why SoR isn't played has already been covered; in my opinion, the biggest problem is that it's too symetrical - as in, a t1 Sphere doesn't allow for t2 three-drop that easily. We would increase our chances of t1 action but decrease our impact on t2. Might be very desireable in some matchups, especially those where many of our lock-pieces are insubstantial (combo). It's much less desirable in other matchups where the strategy of interlocking pieces is needed. A deck with a substantial number of SoRs would need to stray from that path somewhat. A 3sphere/SoR split might work better.

The other reason is that SoR is not really needed against most decks and would eke out more versatile or less problematic lock pieces. Sure, most non-combo decks would get hit by it as well, but nowhere near as much as combo would, and we'd be hampered as well. Our hardlocks are expensive or hard to assemble; our soft lock depends on multiple lock pieces to be efficient, particularly since quite a few of our lock pieces are situational.
3sphere comes down a turn later, but has a much larger impact. It also plays better with Geddon, Smokestack and Crucible/Wastes eating their land, since it makes it impossible to cast stuff of one land.
In other words, 3sphere is better except in multiples and on t1.
To be frank, I've never had much of a problem with multiple 3spheres; they're prime cspell and disenchant targets, and if they're not being eliminated, I can often sac them to Stack. But yeah, SoR is better in multiples, at least potentially. Examples have been given; maybe a restructuring or metagaming would be needed, though.
As for t1, I don't see in which matchup SoR would warrant cutting something else, with the obvious exception of combo. whether we play 3sphere t2 or SoR t1 is a mere one-mana difference for the opponent (at best). If they're cantripping they may get the nuts against us, but it's a relatively small chance, particularly if the opponent attempted to keep a good anti-Stax hand anyway - depending on what they get, we may still be better off with the ability to cast Crucible/Prison/3sphere (if any) t2. If they run out a creature instead of cantripping, they're delayed by a turn; then again, we're delayed by a turn as well - and it's not like we're always getting four mana t3 without having to sacrifice City either.

//edit: SoA -> SoR. How I shortened "Resistance" to "A" I'll never know.

Hopo

09-05-2010, 01:04 PM

What is SoA?

Gheizen64

09-05-2010, 01:18 PM

My post in this thread concerning Mox Opal and a possible decklist has been nuked -.-

Well, basically, people, playtest Mox Opal aside some artifact lands, especially darksteel citadel, it works wonder.

majikal

09-05-2010, 05:41 PM

Curby

09-05-2010, 11:36 PM

Yeah I'd rather have a 2-mana land than a Darksteel Citadel, and I'd rather have a Mox Diamond than a Mox Opal. Good thing they're already in the deck. =)

I'd say that it might work, but I'm not convinced that it works wonders. How is this proposed build superior to the standard build?

Noman Peopled

09-06-2010, 05:37 AM

I have actually played with 1-2 Chrome Moxen main (along with a few SoR and one more Chrome Mox side), mainly when expecting combo. (Incidentally, this also marginally increases the number of t1 3spheres.) It was decent but of course has its own problems - but the deck can ditch one excess Prison/Magus rather consistently, quite easily. Never mind the situational O-Ring, and with Smokestack active even Armageddon becomes moot quite often.
Against anything but combo it's not worth it, though - you may actually need those "excess" Prisons/Magi. Plus, this was before Disenchant Cat (TM).

Mox Opal certainly looks breakable, but not even useable in this deck, imo. On turn 1 it does nothing unless we have at least two mana already which is enough against anything but fast combo. (The use of artifact lands is also not free; whether it's basic lands, Wastes, or Factories, something would have to be shaved off.)
On t2, it helps us get to three mana, as would any land, but is again more dependant on external factors. It will occasionally help get us to four mana to t3, which is very nice indeed with Smokestack, but often premature with Armageddon.
Past that, a land will most often do, with the exception of us being forced to break City.

In other words, what does the card do that the deck needs? Does it provide something that warrants changing the deck?
Especially since it does nothing but slow us down in multiples (so we can't play a full set) until we can get that Smokestack active ... Dunno, it seems like it would need too much support for too small an effect.

Infinitium

09-06-2010, 09:59 AM

Does it help you play 3-drops on turn 1? No? Thought not. Garbage.

It does. Artifact land + Mox Diamond or 2x Mox Diamond activates it, as does Chalice@0 (primarily versus combo but still). Not all that likely but it does add up with the Diamond + dual land hands.

ns2973

09-06-2010, 11:24 AM

It does. Artifact land + Mox Diamond or 2x Mox Diamond activates it, as does Chalice@0 (primarily versus combo but still). Not all that likely but it does add up with the Diamond + dual land hands.

Thats almost statistically negligible though. I don't see opal being in the current build, but who knows.

Curby

09-06-2010, 03:22 PM

The goal is not to come up with laughably inefficient situations in which Mox Opal could be tapped for mana. The goal is to determine how Mox Opal could possibly benefit the deck.

So to get three mana, you could get a 2-mana land, another land, and a Mox Diamond. We've got 7-8 of the former and 4 of the latter. It still doesn't happen often enough, but that's a starting point. Infinitium suggests an artifact land, another land, a Mox Diamond, and a Mox Opal. How many artifact lands are you going to run? If it's 7-8, then the chances of getting the first three cards are the same, but you still need the Mox Opal. Sure it could happen, but it's not reliable enough to depend on, and therefore not a benefit to the deck overall.

Grim Monolith is a better bet for early acceleration. Using just a 2-mana land and Monolith, you can get 3 during the first turn. But we don't even use Monolith, so I can't see Stax using Opal.

Noman Peopled

09-06-2010, 04:20 PM

And that's without going into how artifact lands are worse than every single land in the deck unless we actually have Opal in the opener, and even then they're a liability.

Curby

09-10-2010, 09:13 PM

Just to preempt the inevitable, can we just agree that Leonin Arbiter isn't a good fit for Stax? Here's the argument I made elsewhere:

My first consideration is what it brings to the party beyond our existing options. E.g.: Trinisphere and Chalice. It has a big effect on Natural Order, which is more of a meta consideration depending on how often you see it. More generally, it hurts fetchlands in a deck that really wants to attack the manabase. If you effectively halve the number of lands in their deck (by nerfing their fetches), it can make it extremely difficult for them to recover from a Geddon, and taxing effects force them to overextend into your geddons. Nice.

However, we also often run Suppression Field in the side. This takes care of a lot of other problems, including fetchlands, opposing Lavamancers and Vials, and has the "pay 2 more if you really want it" net effect on fetches. Importantly, (1) they stack* and (2) they must be paid for per-activation. Suppression Field actually looks like the most obvious thing to cut for Arbiter, but would that be a positive trade? I don't think so.

We must also not forget about Aven Mindcensor. The evasion would be seldomly but occasionally relevant, the Flash may be useful to play tricks with your opponent, and it's likely to be as good against Natural Order and Tutors, though not so much against fetches. The Aven has the additional small benefit in that it costs 3, which is more likely to escape Chalice.

Arbiter could really swing some games and help the deck overall. However, it doesn't solve the core problem of Stax not having the right card at the right time. Additionally, some of its effect is already provided by our other cards. Ultimately, it doesn't seem like it's strong enough to displace some of the more generally-useful cards in our tight decklist. That said, I'd love to hear some arguments to the contrary.

Asterisk above because Arbiter probably stacks too.

Noman Peopled

09-11-2010, 09:06 AM

Asterisk above because Arbiter probably stacks too.
Iirc the preview article flat-out states so. Gonna go check now.

//edit: yep, it does, the stack.
Also, I agree, it'll be another card that looks the nuts in Stax and then gets spat back out quickly.

Dzra

09-14-2010, 02:31 AM

Just for an update, lately I've been trying out a more back to basics version without Baneslayer. Instead of relying on Baneslayer or some other finisher to get earlier wins, I'm trying a slower version that hopefully locks more consistently. Suppression Field MD is especially nice against the increasing number of Zoo and Goblin decks.

I think Crystal Ball provides a really great filter for the deck mid-to-late game and helps stop those face palm draws. Still, what I think this deck really needs is some creature around the 3 to 5 mana range that basically reads "I stall the game, am somewhat difficult to remove, and can double as a finisher." I keep looking at Windborn Muse, but the fact that it rolls over to basically all removal is frustrating. Hopefully Scars has some nice artifacts for us. Etched Champion is somewhat interesting.

Artifacts 20
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Crucible Of Worlds
3 Smokestack
2 Crystal Ball

Creatures 4
4 Magus Of The Tabernacle

Other Spells 12
4 Armageddon
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Suppression Field

Land 24
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flagstones Of Trokair
3 Plains
1 Savannah

Sideboard 15
4 Sphere of Law
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Choke
3 Fairie Macabre
2 Tormod's Crypt

Curby

09-14-2010, 12:03 PM

World Queller does pretty much all of that, at the expense of requiring two white mana. That variety of utility is why I've been suggesting him. Unfortunately, I can't do much testing right now. My other idea is to use KotR with a land toolbox, but that toolbox can't be too big without further decreasing consistency.

How has that manabase been working out for you? I know you've taken out the only WW requirement in the deck, but still, having only 8 white sources, half of them a single Legendary, seems really dangerous.

I like the four Trinispheres and the 2 Crystal Balls. I'd consider taking out a Magus and Supp. Field to add in two Quellers, and remove a Factory, Flagstones, and perhaps City of Traitors for more Plains.

land survey from a week or two ago: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Av1HyANgStffdG5WaHR2d1RUZlBEZF9ueFhFMTFpN0E&hl=en&authkey=CN-7-ZgF#gid=0

BlindMage

09-14-2010, 01:26 PM

@Dzra: Why would you not play 4 Crucible of Worlds? I haven't been following this thread lately, but my understanding from a little while ago was that people basically agreed that playing less than 4 Crucible was not optimal, as tempting as it is to try to cut one when you're trying to make space int he deck (not good in multiples, etc).

@kirbysdl: Like I said, I'm not completely caught up on recent development on this deck, but I used to play the old Angel Stax deck and based on my own experience switching from Angel to Armageddon Stax, as well as the community consensus at that time, I believe that 3WW or 4WW big threats are not only unnecessary, but take up space that could be used for things that make the way Stax REALLY wins (that is, locking them out; 20 life is just a formality) stronger, leading to a more focused game plan. Obviously, the World Queller makes them sacrifice things, but it looks too slow to me. You can play Smokestack off two lands, whereas to play World Queller, you need at least 4 lands/Diamonds. It might or might not also matter that with Smokestack they have to sacrifice first, which is not the case with World Queller. Instead, I'd suggest adding some more lands (up to 26, maybe), the 4th Crucible, keeping the Magus count up, or bumping the Smokestack up, etc.

Also, I've never been a fan of Suppression Field. It doesn't play nice with your own Factories, Wastelands, sideboarded Tormod's Crypts, or Chalices.

For reference, the list I've been playing for a while:

Manabase: 30
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Savannah
6 Plains

Creatures: 4
4 Magus of the Tabernacle

Spells: 27
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Trinisphere
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Smokestack
4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War

Sideboard
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Krosan Grip
3 Hanna's Custody
3 Choke
1 Trinisphere

Notice the main deck is 61 cards. Normally, this is not the sort of thing I would do, but I read some math dealing with the changes in probability of drawing a 4-of versus drawing a white mana when you add a Plains as a the 61st card (posted by someone earlier in this thread, I believe) that convinced me. The only other thing about it which might not be obvious is that Krosan Grip is there as an answer to Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives.

I'm not sure I would assert that this is an optimal list, but it has treated me very well on the uncommon occasions I get to play real Legacy. The actual kill is usually quite slow. However, most opponents will concede once a lock is established. Sometimes someone will try to ruin your tie breakers by making you attack 10 times a waste time. but once you have a lock you can play very quickly. If someone dawdles under a hard lock just to waste your time at a tourny you can always call a judge and accuse them of stalling, which is cheating.

Cheers

Noman Peopled

09-14-2010, 03:38 PM

4 Crucibles is a must, imo. They're great with so many cards in the deck, and they'll be the target of destruction quite often.

It might or might not also matter that with Smokestack they have to sacrifice first, which is not the case with World Queller.
Well, they're not sacrificing first, but they sacrifice during your turn, which is also good - and you have some control over what they have to get rid of. I agree with the rest though. The cost has proven clunky for me. It's not like we can't become the target of enemy Wastes or have to sacrifice our Cities from time to time.
They're also pretty high-maintenance with a Tab effect out.

Curby

09-14-2010, 04:43 PM

Choosing the type is very important. With Queller, the only real even trades are Enchantments. Your Factories let you sac and recur lands, artifacts, and creatures, and you can take out Planeswalkers all day long. Keep in mind that even if you get the lock, you usually end up with a stack at 1 anyway. You can't ramp up Queller, but sometimes you don't need to, especially in the late game where you occasionally actually need to end it quickly. Also, let's not forget the occasional situation where you'd like to ramp down a Smokestack. Queller lets you choose whether you want to trigger it at all. The 2WW cost is indeed an issue, but with everyone running around with 3WW angels it seems a little hypocritical to point to that as the only reason to not use it.

Small correction: three total sources consisting of a 2-mana land and two white sources will cast Queller.

Your deck really does look old-school. =) That's not a diss, I've often wondered why so many people with the resources to get Ravages only play 4 Geddons.

Re: the way you win, I'm not so convinced. I think the fact that you win is more important than the state of the lock when you get there. If Stax adds a few big threats to deal with the changing metagame, and doing so increases its win percentage, then so be it. The problem with ONLY setting up the hard lock and getting the scoop or attrition win is that you have to get the hard lock, and the opponent learns to expect that. If you have a multifront attack that could win in 6 turns or 26 turns, then the opponent has to be ready to counter multiple strategies, which is always more difficult than just dealing with one. Of course, it does play tricks with your consistency. Ultimately, I think it's as much a question of playstyle as it is of effectiveness.

As with others, I think 4 Crucibles is good. However, he uses Crystal Ball, which perhaps sufficiently increases his chances of getting them on the field that he can play 3.

Noman Peopled

09-14-2010, 06:09 PM

Keep in mind that even if you get the lock, you usually end up with a stack at 1 anyway.
I routinely go to two counters when I have Crucible. It's not difficult to sustain with four or more mana available, and sometimes I need to get rid of opposing permanents quickly because they sneezed out a whole lot early or because I didnt draw Stack until relatively late.

Small correction: three total sources consisting of a 2-mana land and two white sources will cast Queller.
Nah, you need four. One land and two white sources will not produce 3WW. No matter how much I wish the cost really was 2WW ...

As with others, I think 4 Crucibles is good. However, he uses Crystal Ball, which perhaps sufficiently increases his chances of getting them on the field that he can play 3.
I doubt it. Crucible is a very solid play early on when coupled with Wasteland, often with Factories too. Also, Crystal Ball gets rid of multiples anyway if necessary.

Curby

09-14-2010, 06:36 PM

What I meant was for the long-game, you want something solid, and that means a Smokestack at 1. I totally agree that you often need to ramp it up earlier to help clear the board.

@Queller: whoops, I'm not sure why I thought it cost 4. /facepalm

Maybe I'll continue along with my KotR experimentation then. Of course, the problem there is getting a green source in play. =)

BlindMage

09-15-2010, 01:50 AM

@kirbysdl: I agree about the potential advantages of fielding a "two-pronged" strategy, but to me, World Queller just doesn't seem like the way to go. It's problematic to try to add this kind of plan B (Queller or KotR or whatever) in Stax because there are so many spells that you can really suffer from cutting copies of, and no built-in draw engine like many decks have, and so the plan B often ends up detracting too much from the plan A. That being said, if a threat could be found that could be included without weakening the lock plan. I'd be enthusiastic about it. The way I see it, the only way this would happen is if the inclusion of the plan B threat made one of the secondary lock pieces (Ghostly Prison, maybe) unnecessary. I could see including a creature that would be a deterrent to other creatures and could also swing in Ghostly Prison's place, assuming the mana cost were manageable.

Crystal Ball looks interesting, but I'm skeptical simply because there have been a lot of artifact draw/filter cards that have looked interesting for Stax but in the end weren't better than playing more copies of bombs. Playstyles and preferences vary, of course, but personally I'll wait for more evidence it's good before I'm convinced.

Curby

09-15-2010, 03:01 PM

@kirbysdl: I agree about the potential advantages of fielding a "two-pronged" strategy, but to me, World Queller just doesn't seem like the way to go.

Absolutely. As a lock piece on a body, it's more of a middle ground than the offense-oriented angels. I meant that the common inclusion of 2 angels allows for a bit of variety in your repertoire. I should have said that explicitly, cause it was a little unclear what I meant after talking about Queller.

Crystal Ball looks interesting, but I'm skeptical simply because there have been a lot of artifact draw/filter cards that have looked interesting for Stax but in the end weren't better than playing more copies of bombs. Playstyles and preferences vary, of course, but personally I'll wait for more evidence it's good before I'm convinced.

I think you hint at a good point, but I'm not sure whether it's the point you were trying to make. The first question is: does Stax need search/sift/scry? I would argue that it does. Stax doesn't need consistency, which I define as the same thing happening every time. Stax needs a different, context-appropriate thing to happen in every matchup, and for that you can't just rely on having 4 of everything (which is how you achieve consistency); you actually need to skew the deck towards favorable inconsistency.

If that's the case, then just because other attempts to fill that need have failed doesn't decrease the need: a proper card could come along to do just what we want. The question is whether Crystal Ball does the job, and I agree that we need more evidence one way or another.

fertris

09-15-2010, 06:32 PM

Indomitable Archangel 2ww
Creature - Angel Mythic Rare
Flying

Metalcraft - Artifacts you control have shroud as long as you control three or more artifacts.

4/4

BlindMage

09-15-2010, 11:00 PM

Indomitable Archangel 2ww
Creature - Angel Mythic Rare
Flying

Metalcraft - Artifacts you control have shroud as long as you control three or more artifacts.

4/4

That looks... pretty excellent. My only reservations are the WW, and the possibility that once you have 3 artifacts you might be winning anyway. Still, it beats for 4 in the sky. Definitely worth a try.

@kirbysdl: I agree with your argument about Stax's need of some kind of search/sift/scry effect. It's also true, however, that Stax cannot afford to spend time in the early turns crafting its hand, as some other decks might. So, anything like Crystal Ball would be used once in or near topdeck mode. This isn't an argument against Crystal Ball, but it is an argument for consitency. If you can't spend time looking for the game plan you want early on, you better have a game plan that works most of the time.

On that note, something like Indomitable Angel might work well in a partial tranformational sideboard, where the beaters come in game 2 after they side out card that could potentially answer beaters. The angel would be ideal for this because in addition to beating down, it might also slow down some sideboarded hate cards. This kind of plan could potentially be the best of both worlds, allowing one to drop the least relevant lock pieces in favor of a dangerous plan B.

Curby

09-15-2010, 11:36 PM

Yeah, I agree that you have to use the first few turns to slow them down enough that you can survive into the late game. This is why I'd be hesitant to remove early game stall cards like Chalices and Trinispheres, but for example those running four stacks or Magi might consider going down to three. I haven't been able to test much yet but hopefully I can soon test how well it works.

The new angel is intriguing, especially as a sideboard card, and especially if something like Zoo is likely to side out paths against us anyway. I can deal with the WW cost but wished it were an artifact as well, both to bring the ability online as well as to protect itself.

Given that Queller takes five, I'm most excited right now about trying out KotR. I'm hoping that two Savannahs, a Canopy, and the Moxen are enough to cast him when I need to. The tutor engine is the primary part of his appeal. I may be overly optimistic about these search/sift options, but I want to see them fail firsthand before I abandon them. =)

GoldenCid

09-16-2010, 10:06 PM

BlindMage

09-17-2010, 12:32 PM

On crystall ball: If your are talking about control stax it could get a 2 off in the list because you'll still be running 4 off of the stall cards (CotV and Trini) to control and extended the game and then you drop CB to bring out your winning condittions.
If you're playing aggro stax, i think that crystall ball is not too helpful due to the number of threatens we run. Crystall ball does not justify çcutting threat cards.

Can you please explain what you mean by "control stax" and aggro stax"? I didn't realize that people were really developing the deck in those two different directions; It seems that with all versions of the deck, the plan was to win by establishing a hard lock with Smokestack, Trinisphere, and Crucible of Worlds. I know some lists incorporated larger beaters like Baneslayer Angel, but I always thought the role of these threats was the same as that of Exalted Angel in the old Angel Stax deck: to be a dangerous plan B, and a distraction that the opponent would have to spend resources dealing with, at the expense of resources to deal with the lock.

GGoober

09-17-2010, 01:44 PM

I have been testing Crystal Ball in stompish decks and it seems very positive in sustaining the initial lock pieces. Given that Crystal Ball is a little weak in an aggro approach, I have not tested it in Stax but I think it will be a great fit. Previous draw-effects were: Bottled Cloister, Uba Mask, Grafted Skullcap, but these cost 4cc, which don't come down as fast as Crystal Ball. Scrying 2 a turn is actually quite huge for the deck since a lot of topdecking in the deck is equivalent to losing turns.

Ask yourselves honestly, how often do you draw useless spells (2nd-3rd 3Sphere, Crucible etc) in Stax when topdecking? Plenty of times. How often do you lock the board initially but lose to topdeck as opponents slowly climb back with Pridemage/EE/Predators? Quite a few times. Every turn you waste in Stax gives your opponents a chance to recover. I was testing Sylvan Library in MGCA and replaced it with Crystal Ball going with a more 8tomb-lands approach and it has worked out better for sure. Stax/Stompy decks do NOT need card advantage. Card quality and the right cards is all that matters. That was the main reason why Bottled Cloister and Co. did not work out. They were 4cc conditional draw engines and they just drew extra cards but never drawing the right cards. Crystal Ball in fact actually 'draws' more cards than these card engines since scrying 2 may as well be diggin 3 cards in thsi deck. You only need to find the right cards and nothing does it better than scrying 2. To scry 2 with the traditional draw engines, you would need about 2 Bottled Cloisters to achieve the same effect.

However, card advantage is still relevant if you're trying to ramp Smokestacks and continue to place out permanents, but this is an argument as to why Crystal Ball is a decent choice for the deck (I'm not advocating it, but personally I've been pleased to run 2-3 in my stompy decks). It really fuels the mid-game when these decks are topdecking random irrelevant cards. The benefit of Crystal Ball is having multiple in play is actually a good thing, giving you even more scry power and ensuring you dig into that one specific spell much faster.

GoldenCid

09-18-2010, 02:10 PM

Can you please explain what you mean by "control stax" and aggro stax"? I didn't realize that people were really developing the deck in those two different directions; It seems that with all versions of the deck, the plan was to win by establishing a hard lock with Smokestack, Trinisphere, and Crucible of Worlds. I know some lists incorporated larger beaters like Baneslayer Angel, but I always thought the role of these threats was the same as that of Exalted Angel in the old Angel Stax deck: to be a dangerous plan B, and a distraction that the opponent would have to spend resources dealing with, at the expense of resources to deal with the lock.

I wrote a preety long primer for aggro stax which was erased or moved to a placed i can't find it (can any moderator do somethig about this?)

EDIT: Here's the link: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18483-[Deck]-White-Aggro-Stax

I a general mode:

Aggro stax is a deck that makes the lock by using creatures in addition to the conventional lock cards like trini, chalices and so on. The common creature pack of this deck is:

4 Aven mindscensor
4 Windborn muse
4 Exalted angel.

Glowrider can be used as well. Your first plan is lock your oponent out at the time you damage him with your lock peaces. It's very solid.
Post side, depending on the pairing, you can include a 3x or a set of magus of the tabernacle.
If you are interested on a list i can PM to you. :)

zmattk

09-23-2010, 10:05 AM

Hey guys, I'm pretty new to this deck. I've been playing legacy for a little bit and I have affinity and non-LED Ichorid made
and I'm just finishing up this deck. First, what are our bad matchups? So far I have tested this against my other 2 decks and my friend's goblins and it just dominates all of them, but if I want to take this to a tournament, what decks should I watch out for? Also, I am having problems with my sideboard. I was wondering what a normal sideboard usually has. I know the primer at the beginning has some suggestions but I was wondering if there is anything new that people have been using? Also, how do we win against the mirror? Or is it basically a draw?

Here is my list so far. Please let me know if there's anything I should change with it

4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
6 Plains
2 Mishra's Factory

4 Trinisphere
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Armageddon
2 Oblivion Ring

2 Elspeth
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

SB
4 Defense Grid
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Suppression Field
2 Sphere of Law
2 Choke

I would really appreciate any suggestions. Thanks!

sdematt

09-23-2010, 01:04 PM

A few suggestions for you:

I'm not in favour of 4 Smokestack, and I'm not sure why everyone hates me for it. Yes, Smokestack is good. But, it's only good with either Elspeth or Crucible of Worlds to fuel it (I mean, you can just raw-dog it out, and hope you draw into a helper). Yes, it is VERY good, but having two is really pointless, and personally, I'd much rather have a bit more utility.

I've found more and more this deck cries in the face of being Wastelanded. Most of the time, you'll keep an opener with either a Mox, Land, and an Ancient Tomb, so you can cast ridiculous on turn 1. Problem is, if you don't see a land for a while, you're out of luck. This has happened way more than once to me, as has being colour screwed out of White.

Also, many people condemn me for playing Moat in the main: it's a freaking good card. Plus, if you're already playing Elspeth/Baneslayer, why not? Your Ghostly Prisons don't always land/aren't always enough. Moat shuts down Goblins/ Merfolk/ Zoo in their ground based attacks. It's very good.

My list as of late:

3 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
3 Armageddon
2 Elspeth, KE
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crystal Ball
4 Trinisphere

3 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Baneslayer Angel

3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 The Tabernacle....Vale
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Savannah
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
7 Plains

--------------
Board:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Karmic Justice
4 Suppression Field
2 Choke
2 Open

Card choices:

Crystal Ball: The deck can really stall out in the mid game going in topdeck mode and not drawing what you need. This helps you filter the crap out, and give you the goods. It's saved my bacon more than a few times, and I consider people to try it. If we weren't playing Chalice and more Green, I'd run Sylvan Library or Top, but we're not, so this is what we have.

Horizon Canopy x2: Again, going into topdeck mode sucks. With Crucible, you have some extra draw at the cost of a land-drop. It's better than nothing, and also gives you more white. Plus, makes splashing Green sideboard stuff easier.

Ghost Quarter: Basically sealing the game up via Wastelock, but better. They fetch their basics, then you remove those with Geddon or with continuous Ghost Quarter. Also allows you to nuke your own stuff for basics in face of non-basic destruction/Back to Basics/Price of Progress.

Savannah: Fetchable with Flagstones, allows you to run more Green from the board.

More Plains: More stable against Wasteland.

Elspeth: Gives you an engine with Smokestack, also allows Magi to fly in for 5. Seems good to me. Plus, if you go ultimate, you can Geddon as you please.

3 Cities vs. 4 City of Traitors: I've found most of the time you need more white, or you'd rather not lose your land every other turn.

Karmic Justice: Landstill is running around again, and this makes Pernicious Deed less likely to happen unless you've drastically over-extended.

Leyline of Sanctity: Running Trini and Chalice can sometimes not be enough against Belcher/TES, and the ilk. They can bounce the hate end of turn, then go off the next. This not only takes care of them Turn 0, you can also cast it later as yet another lockpiece. Also stops you from getting hit on my Black discard, Siege Gang Commander, Belcher, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Zoo's burn and the list goes on. I love this card more and more.

Suppression Field: Fetchlands, Coralhelm, Zoo as a deck in general, Survival, Wasteland against you, Jace TMS, etc. It's like Ghostly Prison for abilities, why not play it? It hurts you a bit, but not as much as the other player.

Noman Peopled

09-23-2010, 01:40 PM

I'm not in favour of 4 Smokestack, and I'm not sure why everyone hates me for it. Yes, Smokestack is good. But, it's only good with either Elspeth or Crucible of Worlds to fuel it (I mean, you can just raw-dog it out, and hope you draw into a helper). Yes, it is VERY good, but having two is really pointless, and personally, I'd much rather have a bit more utility.
Hate is too strong a word; but playing 56 permanents four of which replace themselves makes for a high probability of out-perming an opponent even without Crucible, as long as you can cast 3CC spells. It gets a bit worse with every 4C spell since now you have to pay 4 mana, but that's doable a lot of the time. If you do have four mana, you can cast multiples to sacrifice to the first one; when an opponent is sacrificing a permanent a turn, you won't be needing mutiples of Prisons/Magi either, and will merrily sacrifice surplus to keep the whole thing going. Not saying there aren't problems like lifeloss and losing mana to CoT triggers or Wasteland, just that Smokestack is awesome even without Crucible.
Personally, I'd rather be playing Smokestack as early as consistently as possible, since it severely limits the opponent's choices. Against decks with recursion engines of their own (Loam, Crucible, whatever), it gets taken out as you're basically investing a card and tempo in order to do something they can outperform you at. Also, decks with lotsa tokens or massive numbers of permanents. Basically, the more permanents your opponent has on the table and/or can cast through any lock pieces, the more options they will have, and the worse Smokestack becomes.

stasis

09-24-2010, 08:10 AM

Do people consider limited resources as a win more? or any good at all.
http://www.magiccards.info/ex/en/10.html

I just love this card big time

Noman Peopled

09-24-2010, 10:37 AM

Win-more and clashes with Chalice. It's useless with Geddon. Unless you already have Crucible/Wastes or Smokestack going, it does literally nothing; after that, it's only slightly more of a hardlock than the engines it needs to function in the first place. Plus, it can backfire horribly on occasion.

Love the card to blazes, but it does nothing in Stax.

Curby

09-24-2010, 11:25 AM

Win-more? Tell me, how often are we gonna get to 10 land with 4 geddons in the deck? The point of Stax is not to amass land; the point is to blow up land. Abusing LR requires amassing land, which we're just not set up to do.

And what would you take out? LR conflicts with Geddon just as much as with Chalice, and there's no way in hell we're taking either out for something that does so much less in the deck. LR obviously fits well in a board control shell, but this is not the right shell.

Alcibiades

10-02-2010, 09:59 PM

Crystal Ball: The deck can really stall out in the mid game going in topdeck mode and not drawing what you need. This helps you filter the crap out, and give you the goods. It's saved my bacon more than a few times, and I consider people to try it. If we weren't playing Chalice and more Green, I'd run Sylvan Library or Top, but we're not, so this is what we have.

Seconded. Crystal Ball compensates for one of the deck's biggest deficiencies, namely its chronic inability to assemble a hard-lock immediately after an initial stabilization. Dozens of times I have delightfully pulled off a quick, seemingly game-ending Magus-Geddon, Prison-Geddon, or Chalice-Trinisphere-Crucible-Geddon--only to topdeck garbage for six straight turns, while my opponent played land after land, culminating in a big, unanswerable threat (e.g., Trygon Predator) or set of threats (e.g., Piledriver + Warchief). Crystal Ball greatly reduces your chance of falling into one of these fruitless, infuriating scenarios.

Admittedly, before I started playing with Crystal Ball, I was apprehensive about having to spend a mana every turn, especially since I frequently find myself having to play around Dazes and Spell Pierces. But that drawback turned out to be largely irrelevant. The one thing you typically *don't* lack after stabilizing is mana, especially if you have a Crucible out. Besides, even if you are stretched for mana, you can scry into a City or Tomb before you start scrying into your final lock pieces.

Just for reference, here's my list at the moment:

Land: 26
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory
7 Plains

Creatures: 4
4 Magus of the Tabernacle

Other: 30
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Armageddon
3 Smokestack
3 Crystal Ball

Sideboard:
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Exalted Angel
1 Wrath of God

sdematt

10-03-2010, 12:12 AM

Finally someone agreeing with me. Hooray!

Some comments on your list:

Have you ever played with Ghost Quarter? I suggest one copy for the fact that you can nuke your own Ancient Tombs to tutor Plains, and it "hard-wastelocks" an opponent if they start fetching basics (did this in SCG Seattle. Go go slow-grind!)

I'm also a big fan of having *at least* 7 Plains. People going to 5 and 6 seems terrible, as you are always hungry for white. The one Karakas is also nice to see. I play it in place of a Plains, or sometimes a Wasteland (depending on what everyone is playing).

Do you ever find 4 Flagstones being overkill? I find at times I'm trying to lay down white mana, but I'm prohibited by having multiple Flagstones (it sets me back and a turn, and doesn't necessarily allow me to use the Flagstones to their full potential later on, like when I've got a Smokestack online or after an Armageddon).

For your Sideboard, take out the Thorn. It's actually good against you, as a surprise that is. It hurts us from playing our lockpieces earlier, and it's a commonly Chaliced value. I started using Leyline of Sanctity and haven't looked back. Nullifying Zoo's burn, discard, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Siege Gang Commander and Combo's ability to go off turn 1 is far too good to pass up. As well, you can always play it later quite easily.

As well, I suggest an alternate form to grave hate: Chalice at 2. Chalice at 2 kills Loam, and the other grave based deck, Dredge, gets killed by the fact you play 4 Ghostly Prison and Tabernacle effects. I'd say try Moat or Humility in the board, it destroys Goblins/Zoo/Trygon Predator (Humility, at least) if you're really worried about it. Plus, most of those decks (gobbos, Merfolk, Dredge) have very few ways to bounce it, and if they do, they're on common Chalice values (1 and 2).

Also, through copious amounts of testing and admittance of the fact that I have to go spend money on them, Baneslayer is a bit better than Exalted Angel. It does cost more in one shot, true. But, most of the time, I don't want to Morph on turn 3, I'm playing one of many lockpieces or other relevant things. As well, it also sucks up my turn 4. To me, you get a bit more out of your angel by choosing Baneslayer, unless it's a budget issue. Then by all means use Exalted.

I suggest 1 Tabernacle for the main, by the way. I've always been a fan of 1-2 Tabbys for those pesky Dredge hordes, and those packs of Goblins.

Have you thought about the Green Splash? It's very good against Merfolk and Vengevival.

Let me know what you think.

-Matt

Curby

10-03-2010, 02:27 AM

I'm also a big fan of having *at least* 7 Plains. People going to 5 and 6 seems terrible, as you are always hungry for white. The one Karakas is also nice to see. I play it in place of a Plains, or sometimes a Wasteland (depending on what everyone is playing).

I'm very careful with my white source counts, but less so with Plains. Karakas, Horizon Canopy, and other lands can all give white mana and be useful in other ways at the same time. I know that many people try to remove all their WW spells, which may explain some of the colorless-heavy lists you see.

I'm currently building towards the green splash. 1-2 Canopy, two Savannah, and 2 KOTR main, with Chokes and Grips to the side. Tabernacle land would be awesome, but too rich for my blood. =)

sdematt

10-03-2010, 02:32 AM

Knight of the Reliquary is quite fun in this deck. I used to run him in a more fun version, with a few more utility lands. Good times :D

I like to keep my Plains count up mostly due to Wasteland. Nothing hurts more than laying out an Ancient Tomb, and making some ridiculous plays, then getting Wastelanded and not seeing land again. I prefer a plains count of 7, with a total white source count (excluding Mox Diamond) of 12-13, with a total of 26 lands. I feel 26 is the right number (even 27 would be fine, but let's not go overboard). 26 gives you enough land to discard with Mox, and you're never really helpless for mana. I used to run 24, but I've found since I added 2 lands I've been a lot more consistent.

-Matt

Alcibiades

10-03-2010, 02:09 PM

Have you ever played with Ghost Quarter? I suggest one copy for the fact that you can nuke your own Ancient Tombs to tutor Plains, and it "hard-wastelocks" an opponent if they start fetching basics (did this in SCG Seattle. Go go slow-grind!)

I've played Ghost Quarter off and on. I find it a bit too situational, and often superfluous. It's cool in the "slow-grind" situation you mention, but then again, when I can afford to take that many turns to eat away at their manabase, I'm usually winning anyway. Maybe a metagame shift away from basics will bring me back to it, but right now, people are packing a lot of Forests and Islands, and a fair amount of Mountains, too.

Do you ever find 4 Flagstones being overkill? I find at times I'm trying to lay down white mana, but I'm prohibited by having multiple Flagstones (it sets me back and a turn, and doesn't necessarily allow me to use the Flagstones to their full potential later on, like when I've got a Smokestack online or after an Armageddon).

I very rarely run into the "I can't play this Flagstone and use it for mana because I have another one out" situation. It does happen, and that sucks, but not *nearly* as much as not having mana after a Magus-Geddon. [Let me anticipate a potential rejoinder: You *can't* always play Armageddon before you play a land, because (1) you often don't have a land in your hand when you want to play Armageddon; and (2) you often need to play a land before Geddon in order to play around Daze or Spell Pierce.] Maxing out on Flagstones and Moxes is the best way to keep that from happening.

For your Sideboard, take out the Thorn. It's actually good against you, as a surprise that is. It hurts us from playing our lockpieces earlier, and it's a commonly Chaliced value. I started using Leyline of Sanctity and haven't looked back. Nullifying Zoo's burn, discard, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Siege Gang Commander and Combo's ability to go off turn 1 is far too good to pass up. As well, you can always play it later quite easily.

I admit that I haven't tested Leyline yet, and I should. Though against storm-combo, I do really like the extra four lock effects that a playset of Thorns provides. In addition--and this relates to your Exalted Angel/Baneslayer Angel comments--I really like a transformational sideboard in this deck, as opponents often remove a lot of creature removal for game two, and bringing in a set of Angels alongside a set of Thorns is a great way to go surprise-aggro. Turn-1 Chalice/Thorn/(if you're lucky)Trinisphere, turn-2 face-down Angel, turn-3 morph is a very good curve-out during the second and third games.

So although I think you raise a lot of good objections to Thorn, I'm not really defending Thorn (or Exalted Angel) as such, but rather as a part of my own idiosyncratic sideboard plan.

I'd say try Moat or Humility in the board, it destroys Goblins/Zoo/Trygon Predator (Humility, at least) if you're really worried about it. Plus, most of those decks (gobbos, Merfolk, Dredge) have very few ways to bounce it, and if they do, they're on common Chalice values (1 and 2).

Noted. I'll give Humility a try, but not Moat, for two reasons: (1) Humility beats Predator and Pridemage, and I hate hate hate those cards; and (2) I don't own a Moat. :(

Reason (2) applies to Tabernacle, as well.

Have you thought about the Green Splash? It's very good against Merfolk and Vengevival.

I have a (perhaps irrational) fear of Wasteland, so I'll keep my Savannahs at arm's distance for the time being. Though I would love to play Choke.

Thanks for the comments.

sdematt

10-14-2010, 01:41 PM

Alrighty, so I've done some testing with the Vengevival matchup (using the highest ranked list
I found on Starcitygames, Brain something's list), both playing Stax and playing Vengevival.

Firstly, Vengevival is a hell of a deck to play. It's like rocket fuel plus cocaine: it's really fast.
It's also really fun to play, so I definitely see the deck becoming as prolific as Reanimator was in
the meta. In a way, the deck plays very much the same: it's a combo deck. Take away or disrupt the combo
and you can win.

Vengevival RELIES on Vengevine to win, there's no way around saying that. I mean, the deck CAN get there
using Madness tech from 2005, but it's a bit of a slow horse when you're trying to win that way.

I'll talk about the cards they use, and which ones screw us over, and which of ours are good against them
or what we have to counter such a card. I figure this should be in depth because it's a relevant matchup,
and most of the matchup analysis in most of these threads are just "add X, subtract Y" sideboard plans
that give no real reasoning behind them, and can make it kind of hard to understand.

Main threats:

Vengevine: I found most of the time I ended up hardcasting these suckers and trying to get there with
no Survival on the board. It just seemed easier to get there with a 4/3 on turn 3, usually with some
exalted pumps and some jitte action later on. This guy's a problem because once he dies, he usually
comes back with friends. To deal with this, get Ghostly Prison out as soon as you can. Tie up their
manabase with Tabernacle effects but beware: they can sac their stuff, then just use their ability
to get them out of the yard. Magus makes an excellent blocker here, and Baneslayer first-strike with
Lifelink really saved my ass many times. I'd say don't wait to play creatures in this matchup like
you normally would: you may need them to block and the like.

Trygon Predator: With every blow, this little bastard disrupts us. Either make him get sacced with
Smokestack if you can, or you'll have to start laying out redudant hate pieces. Most likely, they'll
start taking away your web of Prisons and your Crucibles/Chalices, so try and attack their manabase
if you can so they can't hit you. Keeping this guy off the board is key here, and is why I suspect
he's even in their deck in the first place, besides hitting pieces of hate.

Jitte: The main problem is not the -1/-1 or the life, but it's the pump. Giving +2/+2 multiple times
puts their creatures out of kill range on Baneslayer, and it does so at instant speed. It can kill us
pretty quickly considering we're usually sporting less than 15 life at all times.

Survival of the Fittest: The engine of the deck obviously, along with said Vengevines. Tutorable answers
mainly Trygon Predator, means if they need to take us apart, they most likely can and will try to do so.
Tip here is getting them to sac it, or making it impossible to kill your stuff via not being able to deal
combat damage.

Wasteland and Stifle package: Can this hurt us? Well, yes. This can really set us back a turn or two,
giving them enough time to lay out fast threats and kill us. Crucible will be essential in keeping
up in this matchup, so be careful. Don't keep REALLY risky hands with a Mox Ancient Tomb play with no
other lands, that could spell disaster.

Our main threats against them:

Chalice of the Void at 1 and 2: Chalice at 1 kicks them in the pants royally. They can't land Hierach,
Stifle (against our Wastelands/Flagstones/anything), can't Madness in Basking rootwalla, etc. Chalice
at 2 takes care of Daze, Survival, Aquamoeba, Wild Mongrel, Jitte,etc. Chalice at 1 slows them down,
Chalice at 2 really finishes it off without an active Survival. If you can land both with an active
Survival online, you should be okay, as they only have Predator to cast to trigger multiple vengevine.
I can't remember if Vengevine will still trigger on the countering of a cast creature (as in, I'm not
sure if the creatues you play that turn actually resolve or not). If that's the case, if still hurts
them.

Ghostly Prison: They're trying to get there with multiple hasty threats with a land light deck. Ghostly
Prison allows you to tie up their manabase so they have to find an answer to be able to kill you. Ghostly prison really only stalls for time, but it let's you have a few turns where they aren't beating your face, or are beating you with fewer creatures. The key here is multiple Prisons, or nuking their lands to make it super-effective. Obviously this can't be done all the time, but it's a start.

I'll finish this up later, but for now, enjoy.

-Matt

Dzra

10-14-2010, 06:11 PM

Personally, I think that 4 Suppression Field maindeck is the only place for this deck to go. Stax needs to get disruption online fast or it just beats itself to death. Three out of four Legacy decks are set back at least 2-3 turns by a t1 SF. There is just no reason to board it, you'll be bringing it in more often than you'd be siding it out. It beats fetches, artifact mana, Survival, Pridemage, etc. In the time that I played Stax, I had the most success by far using Suppression Field.

Also, I feel like 3 Smokestacks works fine. I look at Smokestacks like wincons; they can only come down and seal the game after the board has been clogged up by softlock pieces.

Crystal Ball is a godsend. Use it.

<3

Curby

10-17-2010, 11:22 PM

Supp Field is always in my sideboard, but I'm not sure about what to remove in order to put it into the main, esp. since I'm already planning to add Crystal Balls.

Btw, got a small amount of testing in, and World Queller's just so awesome with Mishra's Factory and Crucible. He's actually even better in the hard lock than Smokestack at 1. Just when I thought I had decided on angels or KotR, I feel the need to test out Queller a bit more again.

sdematt

10-18-2010, 10:46 PM

I plan on finishing the Vengevine primer in about a week, I've got 3 midterms (Organic Chem, Statistics, and Middle Ages History) between now and then. Until then, I'll keep you all in suspense.

But, point well made. But, there's not much to cut from the Maindeck to play Field. It was hard enough cutting 2(!) slots for Crystal Balls, never mind 4 for Fields.

But, I strongly suggest Karmic Justice in the board to counter Trygon predator, that flying, om-nom-nom-ing bastard...

-Matt

Vesper Ghoul

10-19-2010, 09:07 AM

I have been playing 3 Main board Suppression Fields since February and I have tinkered with 4 and found I like 3 in my build with a fourth in the side. I have played around with cutting O-rings and putting back in the Smokestacks I cut for the Suppression Fields and I didn't like that trade. While I like hitting a Stack its only a win condition in my deck not the focus and Stack seemingly never gets rid of the permanent I want Oring does. Suppression Field is possibly the best card in the deck. I almost never want to have more than 1 - 2 out because 4 to wasteland and 5 to activate Factory hurts you. In my build I find myself either setting up Smoke Stack or Baneslayer for the win because with the fields Factory just doesn't get there usually. While I may get some flack for it I run 61 cards main 5 Geddon effects are better with the lack of Stacks.

2 Baneslayer Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War

4 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Suppression Field

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
1 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Nomad Stadium
5 Plains
4 Wasteland

SB
1 Trinisphere
1 Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale
3 Wrath of God (meta choice)
1 Suppression Field
2 Windborn Muse
3 Defense Grid
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Smokestack

Torgeist

10-21-2010, 03:30 PM

Has anyone considered playing bottled cloister over crystal ball and replacing the ghostly prisons with ensnaring bridge? The cloister is basically a confidant and it turns bridges into super-moats.

Curby

10-21-2010, 04:20 PM

Bottled Cloister is pretty much unplayable in an environment with Pridemage and Grip. Many decks run Goyf, and anything that runs Goyf generally runs Grip.

paeng4983

10-22-2010, 07:23 AM

we have an upcoming tournament this weekend, and im considering to pick this deck.
im looking at lux cannon, will this be a good weapon with this deck?
how about rachet?
thanks

Dzra

10-22-2010, 03:19 PM

2 Baneslayer Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War

4 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Suppression Field

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
1 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Nomad Stadium
5 Plains
4 Wasteland

SB
1 Trinisphere
1 Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale
3 Wrath of God (meta choice)
1 Suppression Field
2 Windborn Muse
3 Defense Grid
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Smokestack

I like this list a lot. I might be inclined to mess with the manabase a tad and 1 Smokestack feels awkward, I feel like I'd go 2+ or none, but overall it looks really hot.

Steveman

10-24-2010, 11:07 PM

Here's a list I just played in a Magic-League Legacy Master. I went 5-2 in the swiss and placed 13th overall out of 77.

26 LAND
X10 Plains
X4 Ancient Tomb
X3 Wasteland
X3 City of Traitors
X3 Flagstones
X2 Horizon Canopy
X1 Karakas

29 Spells
X4 Mox Diamond
X4 Chalice of the Void
X4 Crucible of Worlds
X4 Humility
X4 Ghostly Prison
X4 Trinisphere
X3 Moat
X2 Smokestack
X1 Armageddon
X1 Ravages of War

3 Kill Conditions
X3 Eslepth

15 Sideboard
X4 Peacekeeper
X3 Swords to Plowshare
X3 Ratchet Bomb
X2 Wrath of God /X1 Day of Judgement
X1 Armageddon /X1 Ravages of War

Mixup between Dutch Stax and Geddon Stax with the Ghostly Prisons to help combat Merfolk / Vengevine Survival

Round 1: 2-0 vs Uwb Merfolk
- Game 2 I dropped Peacekeeper fairly quick. My opponent popped a fetch and realized that he had no out to Peacekeeper because he boarded out his STPs.

Round 2: 2-0 vs GW Survival
- Don't remember game 1 too much, game 2 he got me down to 1 life before I sealed the deal with Peacekeepers, Moats, and Humilities

Round 3: 1-2 vs Bant Order
- Game 1 I locked him out pretty quickly. Game 2 I thought I had it in the bag with Peacekeeper. I knew my opponent's exact decklist and was pretty sure that he boarded out all his Swords for Trygon Predator / Krosan Grip. Unfortunately, he dropped Jace 2.0. In response I played my Elspeth but he Spell Pierced it. Before he went off, I scooped knowing to beat his ultimate.

Game 3 I lost due to an epic misplay. I had a turn 1 Ancient Tomb - > Ratchet Bomb to deal with any significant threat. At the end of his second turn, I decided to keep 1 counter on for some dumb reason (to take out any Noble Hierarchs / Counterbalances). After I drew my card I was like "oh crap, I forgot about Trygon Predator, hopefully he doesn't drop one turn 3." Turn 3 he untaps, plays a land and plays Trygon Predator. If I Ratchet Bombed it, I could've still been in the game because we both would've just been in topdeck mode.

Round 4: 2-1 vs Vengevine Madness Survival
- Game 1 I had a 4 mana start with double Mox / City of Traitors. I could've either played Elspeth or Humility right off the bat but a single Daze / FoW followed up by a FoW would have wrecked me. Unfortunately, I was on the draw and had no clue what my opponent was playing so I decided to play safe and try to stabilize my mana base and play around Daze. Turn 2 he drops Aquomoeba and discards Rootwalla / Vengevine into play. He countered my Humility then just steamed through me.

Game 2 was one with double Peacekeeper / other stuff and rode game 3 on Moat / Humility lock.

Round 5: 2-1 vs Landstill
- Game 1 had a pretty early Crucible / Wasteland / Horizon Canopy engine going on that won. Game 2 I kept a 2 land hand, and he wasted my Ancient Tomb. Eventually he got a Life From the Loam engine going on, so I scooped.

Game 3 I had a really strong opening: Chalice turn 1 and Trinisphere turn 2. I had Elspeth / Armageddon in hand but I wanted him to tap out first so he couldn't counter it. He tapped out turn 4 to play Pernicious Deed. On my I played Armageddon so he wouldn't untap and clear my board. Two turns later I threw down an Elspeth with another Armageddon in hand to make sure he couldn't get another 3 lands in play before I finish him.

Round 6: 1-2 vs Mono Blue Merfolk
- Game 1 I kept a hand of 4 land / mox double Ghostly Prison praying that my opponent's game plan was winning by tapping his creatures. I had turn 1 and 2 Ghostly Prison while he had turn 2 AEther Vial. I had a Wasteland or two on his Mutavaults then threw down Moat / Humility for the game.

- Game 2 he swarmed me really fast. Game 3 I had an early Ghostly Prison. He countered my Humility. I eventually got a second Ghostly Prison out but after that I was drawing lands for umpteenth turns. Eventually I draw a second Humility and resolve it, but I was at 3 life so it really didn't matter because swings for lethal the next turn no matter what : /

Round 7: 2-0 vs Necrotic Ooze Survival
- I got paired WAY DOWN. Everybody still playing had at least 12 points (3 points for every match win) except this guy who only had 7... His knowledge of the rules weren't that good and contested that I couldn't attack with a pumped Elspeth token with Moat / Humility in play and insisted that he can play Force of Will with its alternate casting cost without paying 3 with a Trinisphere in play.

Game 1 I had an early Crucible Wasteland. His deck literally had nothing but non-basic lands and I nuked a good 8 lands in a row: I don't think he played a single spell the whole game.

Game 2 was nothing special, won off the usual Peacekeeper / Moat / Humility plan.

Bottom line: If you're looking for a Stax deck that just runs over any Survival deck, look no further than this one :)

Vesper Ghoul

10-29-2010, 08:32 AM

I like this list a lot. I might be inclined to mess with the manabase a tad and 1 Smokestack feels awkward, I feel like I'd go 2+ or none, but overall it looks really hot.

The 1 smokestack has been really clutch for me. I would rather cut the one rather than running two+. I would most likely run another Baneslayer because without the stack the deck loses a win condition. If you find a better mana base let me know.

Torgeist

10-30-2010, 10:32 AM

Bottled Cloister is pretty much unplayable in an environment with Pridemage and Grip. Many decks run Goyf, and anything that runs Goyf generally runs Grip.

But that's only a problem if you actually have something relevant in your hand. Naturally it wouldn't be a first-turn play, but I've found that after a few turns my hand is generally empty anyway and I have enough mana to cast whatever lockpieces I draw right away. And if they want to waste their grip on bottled cloister rather then a lockpiece, that's only beneficial for us.

The benefit of bottled cloister with ensnared bridge is also that you become less dependant on armageddon. It's almost a cross-over with dutch stax, but without the downsides 9and without the hefty pricetag:))

sdematt

10-30-2010, 12:38 PM

I've posted my build in the pimp thread if you guys are interested in seeing it.

-Matt

Steveman

10-30-2010, 01:14 PM

But that's only a problem if you actually have something relevant in your hand. Naturally it wouldn't be a first-turn play, but I've found that after a few turns my hand is generally empty anyway and I have enough mana to cast whatever lockpieces I draw right away. And if they want to waste their grip on bottled cloister rather then a lockpiece, that's only beneficial for us.

The benefit of bottled cloister with ensnared bridge is also that you become less dependant on armageddon. It's almost a cross-over with dutch stax, but without the downsides 9and without the hefty pricetag:))

Here's a criteria I believe every Stax list should follow. Every card must meet at least one of the following in order to be considered playable in the deck

1.) Card must be a source of mana
2.) Card must be a lock-piece or removal
3.) Card must be a win condition

The two cards that people bring up most that don't fit into any of these 3 categories are Bottled Cloister and Crystal Ball. The reasons why I have these requirements in the deck is because every card has to be useful to me on turns 1-3. Stax can't afford to play a card turn 2 and wait for it to be useful turn 5.

The best draw card that meets these requirements is Horizon Canopy. It gives you colored mana when you need it, cycles when you don't need it, and gives you a great card-drawing engine late game with Crucible when you're in topdeck mode. Bottled Cloister may be good with Ensnaring Bridge, but my belief is that both cards are extremely subpar without one or the other. Bottled Cloister is extremely vulnerable games 2 and 3 when your opponents bring in their artifact hate. Often times, I board in cards like Swords to Plowshares games 2 and 3 against Merfolk / Survival, and would not want those cards to be lost to a destroyed Bottled Cloister when I have to save my removal for Gaddok Teeg / Trygon Predator.

The other side of the coin is this: what card(s) in the maindeck would people take out to replace with Bottled Cloister / Ensnaring Bridge? I personally think every other card in traditional shells is generally better than Bottled Cloister / Ensnaring Bridge combo. The fact that the two cards are reliant on each other and the fact that Bottled Cloister can blow up your hand are reasons enough that I would never consider them in a Stax deck.

Vesper Ghoul

10-31-2010, 09:03 AM

I completely agree with Steveman above. Not even just part of it, the whole thing.

Torgeist

10-31-2010, 05:09 PM

Here's a criteria I believe every Stax list should follow. Every card must meet at least one of the following in order to be considered playable in the deck

1.) Card must be a source of mana
2.) Card must be a lock-piece or removal
3.) Card must be a win condition

The two cards that people bring up most that don't fit into any of these 3 categories are Bottled Cloister and Crystal Ball. The reasons why I have these requirements in the deck is because every card has to be useful to me on turns 1-3. Stax can't afford to play a card turn 2 and wait for it to be useful turn 5.

The best draw card that meets these requirements is Horizon Canopy. It gives you colored mana when you need it, cycles when you don't need it, and gives you a great card-drawing engine late game with Crucible when you're in topdeck mode. Bottled Cloister may be good with Ensnaring Bridge, but my belief is that both cards are extremely subpar without one or the other. Bottled Cloister is extremely vulnerable games 2 and 3 when your opponents bring in their artifact hate. Often times, I board in cards like Swords to Plowshares games 2 and 3 against Merfolk / Survival, and would not want those cards to be lost to a destroyed Bottled Cloister when I have to save my removal for Gaddok Teeg / Trygon Predator.

The other side of the coin is this: what card(s) in the maindeck would people take out to replace with Bottled Cloister / Ensnaring Bridge? I personally think every other card in traditional shells is generally better than Bottled Cloister / Ensnaring Bridge combo. The fact that the two cards are reliant on each other and the fact that Bottled Cloister can blow up your hand are reasons enough that I would never consider them in a Stax deck.

While I agree with part of your post, i think you're wrong in assuming either bottled cloister or ensnaring bridge are useless on their own. Stax tends to empty it's hand rather quickly and doesn't have much in the way of refilling it. Thus, ensnaring bridge would actually be rather usefull on it's own (granted, it's not on par with ghostly prison, but that requires armageddon to function, which is FoW-target number one for most opponents). Bottled cloister should ofcourse never be played on turn 2, and i actually wouldn't like to see it in my opening hand, but the same goes for crystal ball, for which I suggested it as a replacement.

And again, I don't think blowing up my hand is that big of a deal after the first few turns. If you're playing swords in your board, that's a different story, but in that case you're playing a VERY different sideboard from mine.

Curby

10-31-2010, 11:05 PM

Every card must meet at least one of the following in order to be considered playable in the deck

1.) Card must be a source of mana
2.) Card must be a lock-piece or removal
3.) Card must be a win condition
4.) Card must get the right card at the right time.

Ball, Cloister, Canopy might not fully achieve point number 4, and that explains why they aren't exactly staples. Of the three, Canopy is certainly the most used. But still, I wouldn't write off number 4 when thinking about Stax. The only problem Stax has is getting the right card at the right time, and for that we can't just depend on using 4-of everything. That's what Stax has done all along, and it's simply not enough. We haven't gotten the perfect card to fill the search/sift niche yet, but it's clearly a spot that needs to be filled.

sdematt

10-31-2010, 11:43 PM

If this deck could run Top/Mirri's Guile, it would be great. Free manipulation like Sylvan Library would be great in this deck, but all of these things either don't fit the curve (1 and 2 usually countered with Chalice online), or are too mana intensive (we want to be playing things, Top isn't too friendly). Library costs WAY too much life, as we're usually less than 15 at all times, unless we're getting ready to win (ex. Baneslayer has already hit).

I've found for me, Canopy is great with Crucible just for drawing extra cards and providing that white/green source when we need it. Even if we don't have Crucible, drawing an extra card at times to dig can be great.

Again, I've found Crystal Ball to be absolutely stellar. It's not just look at the top 2, it's Scrye-2. Put them on the bottom, potentially dig 3 per turn? It doesn't shuffle, sure, but it's pretty damn good nonetheless. It puts you from being in topdeck mode to controlled topdeck mode, giving you at least a better chance to hit the card you need to seal the game in your favour.

With regards to World Queller some time back, I'm beginning to see it's usefulness. Jace is perhaps the deck's "archenemy," so to speak. With an active Jace on board, you basically can't win with Stax, except by having a Smokestack and more permanents on board. Post board, you can deal with him using Leyline of Sanctity, Choke, and Suppression Field, but preboard you're really hosed if he lands. Other decks have the ability to at least attack him in some form, whereas you're playing a Prison deck versus a Control deck (I'm assuming Jace is used in a Landstill shell here). World Queller would allow you to continually choose Planeswalker/Enchantment to get rid of pesky stuff like that. Problem is, Baneslayer with her Lifelink can get you out of a tight situation and allow you to restabilize (ex. You only have Ancient Tombs and you need to cast more lockpieces, or you're getting attacked and you need life desperately). This is one reason why I don't want to cut Baneslayer: Lifelink is very good, as is swinging in the air, allowing you to get around Moat/other ground creatures without the use of Elspeth.

As of right now, running the White Green version for Choke, I've got the following board:

4 Choke
3 Karmic Justice
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Suppression Field

What are you guys running in the board and why? I'm wondering if perhaps the primer on this deck needs to be updated with the times. I'm volunteering to write one, if anyone's interested.

-Matt

Curby

11-01-2010, 12:00 AM

Speaking of the interplay of Elspeth, Baneslayer, and Queller (well even if you didn't, I'm gonna), I've noticed some Stax lists using two each of Baneslayer and Elspeth to vary the number of wincons. How about building around such a list with Queller instead of Elspeth? One of the main reasons to use Elspeth is making Smokestacks more imbalanced in favor of us, but World Queller does that. One of the other main reasons is to jump critters over enemy blockers, but Baneslayer and extra Smokestack-style effects from Queller do that. One of the reasons to NOT use Elspeth is that Ghostly Prison doesn't protect her. That's no problem when using Queller.

To be honest I'm not sure I can free up room for Baneslayer+Queller in my list. However, the two seem like a better fit for the deck than Baneslayer+Elspeth.

_erbs_

11-03-2010, 03:37 AM

sdematt

11-03-2010, 02:46 PM

_erbs_

11-03-2010, 11:42 PM

One thing I like is you're playing Dutch Stax, basically. In a Dutch Stax build, you need the same manabase, but tweaked a bit to allow for Manlands. You need a higher white count though, which makes this VERY tricky.

My list for Dutch Stax is:

3 Wasteland (or 2 Wasteland, 1 Ghost Quarter)
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Horizon Canopy
6 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Flagstones of Trokair

4 Moat
4 Humility
3 Smokestack
3 Elspeth
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
3 Ghostly Prison
3 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void

In this version, you REALLY want Humility, and then Moat. Humility takes out any creatures way of doing anything to do (Pridemage, CiTP effects, etc.), then Moat locks the game. The importance of Trinisphere and the Armageddon effects are not AS important in this deck as in Armageddon Stax, as you're not playing Tabernacle to tax their manabase as much.

To be honest, there is no mix between Dutch and Armageddon Stax here, this is pretty much Dutch Stax :tongue:. I like having more Smokestacks here, because you have more sac outlets now (more Elspeths) so it's advantageous to do so. I *may* cut an Armageddon for the last Prison, but I don't play this version as often.

Hopefully you've gotten some ideas and such!

-Matt

For me suppression field is very strong in the current meta as it deals with enemy wasteland, vials, fetchlands and survival. I think suppression is a must main deck.

So far i've been testing the "tweaked deck" by Steveman and its ok but there are times that the deck just sucks bigtime or 1 draw too late. hahaha, but if it works it could really lock the game fast enough.

the list im running is:
mana [28]
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
4 wasteland
2 mutavault
1 horizon canopy
8 plains
3 flagstones of trokair
3 mox diamond

lock [28]
4 trinisphere
4 chalice of the void
3 suppression field
4 ghostly prison
3 crucible of worlds
3 humility
2 moat
3 armageddon
2 smokestack

walker [4]
4 elespeth, knight errant

Steveman

11-04-2010, 02:13 AM

Hello,
Your build looks solid and good. Aren't you having a hard time winning since you only have 3 win conditions?

What do you think if we tweak your list abit by:
-1 humility -> if you are able to resolve one the rest are dead cards, yeah i know 4offs is for consitency but you have ghostly and trini to stop early threats.
-1 crucible of worlds -> the geddon and sac effects are fewer wasteland count is only 3 aswell.
-2 plains -> change to mutavault
-1 horizon canopy -> change to wasteland, but its debatable im guessing horizon is your way in finding your win con much faster
-1 mox diamond -> fewer geddon effects and only good on the 1st turn.

+3 suppression field -> stops enemy wastelands, vials, fetchlands
+1 wasteland -> debatable against canopy..
+2 mutavault -> 2nd win con

I think I get by just fine with just 3 Elspeths. If I were to add anything, it'd be a SINGLETON Blinkmoth Nexus. Wasteland over Canopy IS debatable but Canopy does it all in my opinion: taps for White mana in the early game when you need it the most and gives you a late-game draw engine with Crucible which is GAMEBREAKING since the deck only runs 3 Elspeths. The reason why I only run 3 Wasteland is because they've gotten weaker ever since enemy fetchlands came around, which is why I run Armageddon main now over Wrath of God. The problem with Mishra's Factory / Mutavault in this deck is that they're horrible when Moat is in play and they don't tap for white mana which is a BIG deal in this deck because Moat / Humility / Elspeth all require WW.

As good as Suppression Field is, I don't like it that much in a Dutch style build because it's too much of a double edged sword because it hurts your Wastelands, Elspeth, and Horizon Canopies, especially if you have them in multiples. Also, it's not too "bombastic" enough for my tastes: if your opponent already has a threat down, all it does is slow them down from playing / finding other threats, where Moat / Humility lock the game on their own fairly easily.

So far i've been testing the "tweaked deck" by Steveman and its ok but there are times that the deck just sucks bigtime or 1 draw too late. hahaha, but if it works it could really lock the game fast enough.

the list im running is:
mana [28]
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
4 wasteland
2 mutavault
1 horizon canopy
8 plains
3 flagstones of trokair
3 mox diamond

lock [28]
4 trinisphere
4 chalice of the void
3 suppression field
4 ghostly prison
3 crucible of worlds
3 humility
2 moat
3 armageddon
2 smokestack

walker [4]
4 elespeth, knight errant

I'm flattered that you based your deck off mine, but I disagree heavily with your changes because every card that you added (Suppression Field / Mutavault) just doesn't fit in the deck. Suppression Field still screws both your win conditions (Elspeth / Mutavault). To me, it doesn't make sense to add 2 cards that really don't work together at all, but doesn't work together with other key parts of the deck. Also, by adding more threat diversity, you take away more key cards like Moat / Humility which are the two BIGGEST bombs in the deck.

I would NEVER play less than 4 Crucible (I would play 5 if I could) because Crucible is the glue that keeps Stax falling over itself: if I were to cut a card, it'd be Trinisphere: winning / placing lists I've analyzed often only played 3 Trinispheres.

_erbs_

11-04-2010, 03:02 AM

I think I get by just fine with just 3 Elspeths. If I were to add anything, it'd be a SINGLETON Blinkmoth Nexus. Wasteland over Canopy IS debatable but Canopy does it all in my opinion: taps for White mana in the early game when you need it the most and gives you a late-game draw engine with Crucible which is GAMEBREAKING since the deck only runs 3 Elspeths. The reason why I only run 3 Wasteland is because they've gotten weaker ever since enemy fetchlands came around, which is why I run Armageddon main now over Wrath of God. The problem with Mishra's Factory / Mutavault in this deck is that they're horrible when Moat is in play and they don't tap for white mana which is a BIG deal in this deck because Moat / Humility / Elspeth all require WW.

As good as Suppression Field is, I don't like it that much in a Dutch style build because it's too much of a double edged sword because it hurts your Wastelands, Elspeth, and Horizon Canopies, especially if you have them in multiples. Also, it's not too "bombastic" enough for my tastes: if your opponent already has a threat down, all it does is slow them down from playing / finding other threats, where Moat / Humility lock the game on their own fairly easily.

I'm flattered that you based your deck off mine, but I disagree heavily with your changes because every card that you added (Suppression Field / Mutavault) just doesn't fit in the deck. Suppression Field still screws both your win conditions (Elspeth / Mutavault). To me, it doesn't make sense to add 2 cards that really don't work together at all, but doesn't work together with other key parts of the deck. Also, by adding more threat diversity, you take away more key cards like Moat / Humility which are the two BIGGEST bombs in the deck.

I would NEVER play less than 4 Crucible (I would play 5 if I could) because Crucible is the glue that keeps Stax falling over itself: if I were to cut a card, it'd be Trinisphere: winning / placing lists I've analyzed often only played 3 Trinispheres.

I see.., you points are valid and correct. But dropping a 1st or 2nd turn suppression field can almost single handedly win you games. It stops deed, rachet bomb, survival and pridemage assuming that humility is not in play. Yeah humility and moat are strong lock parts but they cost 4 and sometimes even with 28 mana sources your still get screwed bec. your lands was hit by enemy wastelands. A single wasteland from your opponent can hurt a stax deck bec. of insuficient mana.

Well im still torn which route to take but for the mutavault , yeah blinkmoth is much better, haha. I believe suppression field a like a trinisphere of somesort, especially now that decks run 6-7 fetch lands in their decks.

Curby

11-04-2010, 06:23 PM

Just came up with a crazy idea. -3 Stax -2 Angels +3 World Queller +3 Suppression Field. I'll talk about the last card to take out later.

I don't like the fact that Angel's "just" a big beater. The D&T player in me wants my critters to do something when they're not beating.

Smokestack is often sided out for Fields against fast decks, and there are a ton of fast decks out there. Why not get this out of the way? You still have Queller for the hard lock.

The questionable -1 could be: Magus because you have more critters in general, and both Magus and Prison are options because you're maindecking other cards that slow them down in other ways, and both attack creatures but there are a lot of decks with few or no creatures until you're already dead (storm, land/loam).

The questionable -1 could also be the 25th land, because overall you're reducing the cost of your deck.

It probably won't work. But there it is. =)

EDIT: For those (like me) running 4 Trinispheres, that becomes an obvious -1 candidate.

Steveman

11-05-2010, 10:21 AM

I've never been a fan of World Queller or Baneslayer Angel because they cost a whopping 5 mana. Being spoiled with Elspeth, I would never want to pay 5 mana for a VULNERABLE creature that gets shut down by my Humility / Moats (that's just me). Still, I like to play around Daze when I can, and I certainly would not want to wait to ramp up to 6 mana. To me, going from 4-5 mana is a HUGE gap between going to 3-4 mana. Even with a solid manabase, a single Wasteland from an opponent is -2 mana for us many times.

For those of you who still like to play with Baneslayer Angel and /or World Queller and trying to pick either or, I would probably pick BSA. My only problem with World Queller is that you can't use him to break a creature stalemate without losing him yourself. Baneslayer Angel is still a lock piece even if she is on the defensive because she's going to at least stall your opponents from attacking most of the time, take out anything that's not a ridiculously huge 5/6+ Tarmogoyf, and gains you life while she's at it.

Quite honestly, in a traditional Armageddon Stax, I personally would go back to using Exalted Angel :-P

paeng4983

11-08-2010, 12:13 AM

Curby

11-08-2010, 01:18 AM

Just realized, casting a first turn S.Field requires a Mox and two land. That's a lot harder to do than Chalice at 1, and just a little bit easier than a first turn Trinisphere.

_erbs_

11-08-2010, 04:28 AM

hello erbs!
congrats in your TOP8 finish last saturday!

im just wondering, how was supp. field in your MD did?
were you able to drop supp. field during your turn_one
many times? how effective was he?

:)

:cool:

Hello
Thanks !!
As for suppression field main.., for me its really an awesome card.., its like a mini geddon and ghostly prison in one. Hmm... around twice only in the etire 8 rounds i've played. Resolving it against vial users is just execellent like merfs, silvers or gobs who has great depency on it, it gives you ample time to setup your lock pieces.

Yeah its harder than 1st turn chalice but it has the same requirements with trinisphere with daze backup if you land a turbo land.

Curby

11-08-2010, 01:19 PM

Ooh, top8? Do you have (or are you planning) a writeup about it? That would be nice. =)

Malakai

11-08-2010, 01:29 PM

Suppression Field is great except for all of the times where it doesn't do anything.

_erbs_

11-09-2010, 12:02 AM

Ooh, top8? Do you have (or are you planning) a writeup about it? That would be nice. =)

Hello,
Went 5-1-1 in a 74 man tourny which was held last week in our country. But sadly lost in the playoffs bec of misplay.

Record 1-0
Round 1 vs Dreadstill (2-0)
Game 1
Forgot the entire plays but i was down to 1 before i was able to stabilize and won the game via Bob flipping cards from my opponent. The permanents we had where 1 pyrexian dreadnought 1 dark confidant 1 sensei 1 cb, several lands. On my part trinisphere, moat, cow and 2 suppression field. i was able to resolve an armageddon then bob did its work for my while i wastelock him tapping 4 mana just to do it lol... (Moat was the MVP here)
Game 2
(Moat and Boiling Seas where the MVP) faster game 1 with bob flipping FOW twice i think. And suppression field making TOP useless.

Record 2-0
Round 2 vs BG Depths (2-0)
Game 1
Got stuck with 3 lands and bob beatdown all the way
Game 2
1st turn suppression field almost gave me the win, my opponents 1st turn was verdant catacombs. able to establish a lock with smokestack, cow while my opponent continue to struggle with fetchlands.
Game 3
1st turn chalice, followed by humility and moat until i landed an elspeth for the win.

Record 2-1
Round 3 vs Sneaky Show (0-2)
Game 1
He goes 1st and droped a lotus petal with ancient tomb followed by show and tell landing emrakul..
Game 2
I boarded 3 orings, boarded out smokestacks.., i go for a 1st turn trinsphere, he drops an island. I then droped a cow with wasteland, on his turn he drops ancient tomb casting show and tell emrakul.. lol gg, i can only drop another cow haha.

Record 3-1
Round 4 vs Slivers (2-0)
Game 1
I dropped a 1st turn chalice for one, it was forced. he drops 1st turn vial, i then dropped a suppression field, it almost gave me the win. after several turns another wastelock with cow.
Game 2
almost same as game 1

Record 4-1
Round 5 vs Zoo (2-1)
Game 1
He goes 1st and dropped a nacalt, i kept a slow hand but had 1 wrath of god and humility with enough mana to drop it on the 4th turn. he then dropped FOD and kird ape.., i cleared all his creatures and then proceed with the lock.
Game 2
I was fast and furious and i took 8 damage from Price of progress haha
Game 3
boared in 3 firespout, almost same as game 1, i had 2 firespout and moat on my opening and mox with turbo lands.

Record 5-1
Round 5 vs Ichorid (2-0)
Game 1
he casts putrid imp.., oh.. ichorid, i then dropped chalice of 1 after several turns i dropped moat with wastelock then smokestack .
Game 2
1st turn trinisphere, then dropped chalice ghoslty prison followed by wasteland lock

Round 6 draw

RECORD => (5-1-1)

Round 7 vs Zoo playoffs (0-2)
Game 1
he goes 1st drops FOD, i was able to drop several lock piece but nothing could stop the 4/4 FOD, and all i drew was lands after dropping somelock parts like chalice and trini.
Game 2
i go for a trini 1st turn, then i was wondering if i'll waste his 2nd land bec i had no more lands on my hand and if i get land screw i cant cast my WOG and moat which i had on my hand.., well thats the turning point.. lol... i should have.., he drew his a 3rd land ang was able to cast pridemage and gaddock teeg... oh no!!!!!!.... i can't do anything with teeg around lol...

overall i was happy with the deck several tweaks and more playtest and i think it will run better

TFF Kingslayer

4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the void
3x Suppression Field
4x Ghostly Prison
3x Armageddon
2x Moat*
3x Humility
2x Smokestack
2x Wrath of God*
3x Elspeth, knight of Errant
3x Crucible of Worlds

4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
1x Mutavault*
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Plateau
2x Flagstones of Trokair
6x Plains
3x Mox Diamond

Sideboard
4x Magus of the Moon
3x Boiling Seas*
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Firespout
2x Bloodmoon

Changes i'll be making are the following:
sadly i don't own any moats thus, i only borrowed them for this tourny.
* moat - mud slide
* wrath of god - firespout
* boiling seas - boil
* mutavault - plauteau

I really don't know how the deck will perform without moats haha.., mudslide is not that nice but until i can find away to play the deck without moats i'll try to look for other alternatives.

Suggestions and comments are welcome

Thanks

Curby

11-09-2010, 02:57 AM

_erbs_

11-09-2010, 05:24 AM

Hi, thanks for the report. I'm not very familiar with Dutch Stax builds, but if this one is any indication, there seems to be a lot of design space taken up by creature answers: 11 main and 3 in the side. Angelgeddon Stax generally only has 7 dedicated anti creature cards in the main, and 2-5 in the side. Aside from the large amount of double white costs, it seems better to get rid of the threat altogether rather than neutralize it; a random wisp mare could lead to a dangerous alpha strike, and forcing them to pay upkeep for creatures follows the Stax plan of resource denial. Freeing up some room would also allow you to run more copies of key cards and increase the chances of drawing them. Have you tried the Angel build and found it lacking? For the reasons above, I find it hard to believe that this design would be superior.

When did you board in the moon effects? Were they for lands decks? It seems that moon's effects on you were at least as great, and it's always better to destroy their lands rather than turn them into mountains.

Overall, it's a neat design, and I like the fact that you're trying new things and posting good results with them. Congrats! I just wonder if you aren't splintering the goal of the deck by adding so many new features.

My old build was Angel geddon stax, i had tons of writeups in this thread in the earlier pages about it. Yes wispmare could totally destroy you in an instant but sometimes the geddon lock doesn't work. I've had great success in the agnel geddon stax build i just tried a different approach since i was able to borrow moats hahaha. But i think humility is really a nice addition to the stax shell as it stops different cards like bob who can develop enough card advanage to over come your lock. I also liked the idea of having wrath of god effects in the main as the meta is really aggro in our area.

My moon effects are for blue control decks aka jace control decks, humility + magus of the moon will work wonders with them, giving me vanilla 1/1 and killing there mana so does boil

f|i[p]

11-09-2010, 09:10 AM

@kirbysdl

The over all plan of dutch stax and geddon stax is quite different. As you have noticed Dutch stax focuses on nullifying creatures more than armageddon stax. Humility shuts down almost all the creatures..the moat simply seals the deal. Wispmare won't be able to go through humility, as well as pridemage, emrakul, progen, and almost every other creature in the format. A single moat can stop goblins cold. It can also handle most creature based decks.

One of the big differences of dutch stax and geddon stax in my opinion is that Dutch stax does not rely too much on synergy like geddon stax. While magus may be able to block, a single creature, and tax an opponent, he won't be able to handle 2 merfolk lords. You will have to wait for ghostly prison and armageddon to be able to do that. While moats and humility can work alone, geddon stax normally needs the interaction between different spells, and hence most of the time we pray for a timely armageddon.

Dutch stax in my opinion is a little superior to armageddon stax simply because of synergy issues. Stax doesn't have much draw (as you can see) to be able to combo out with 2 cards consistently( ghostly-geddon or magus-geddon ).However armageddon stax may have some small advantages as well, like not needing 4 mana and double white to be able to cast moat or humility. Also at times being able to tax an opponent works wonders. One more advantage of geddon stax is that its way much cheaper. But I still think regardless, dutch stax is a stronger version of the deck itself. We don't have to rely on armageddon as much and will be able to dedicate more slots to other spells.

With the metagame seem to be relying on more and more creatures, humility does its job fairly well.

Vesper Ghoul

11-09-2010, 07:22 PM

1. People's advocation of Suppression Field and wanting to win with Elspeth can be very hard. Try to geddon, and still make and pump dudes with 2-3 fields online. Winning with an Angel becomes much better with the fields in the main. Personally I may run one or two Windborne Muse along with my 2 BSA.

2. This thread is seemingly crossing over to a Dutch Stax thread. If you run Humilty and 4x Moat, Congrats I own exactly one Moat so no matter how much better you tell me it is unless I can go in a time machine and get 3 more for under $100 Geddon Stax it is for me. You are not converting me to Dutch Stax thanks for trying.

3. If more people play Rock/Dark Horizons (showed up recently in my meta) to beat Survival that hurts more than survival match ups. Ghostly prison/ wasteland/ Crucible/ Graveyard hate in SB already gave Stax a good chance in the Survival Match up. Suppression Fields are great I have been playing them for months instead of Smokestacks (turns the lands match up which can be very bad.) Discard decks have always been bad for Stax seeing as we are a die roll dependent deck which already gives up card advantage for early control.

sdematt

11-09-2010, 08:16 PM

If more Rock shows up, pack more Karmic Justice in the board. Pernicious Deed rapes our face, so try to make targeted permanent removal as painful as possible.

I know the matchup very very well, as it's one of the other main decks I play (Rock, Dutch and Armageddon Stax, Landstill and Dreadstill). They have a solid matchup against us, Field in play or not.

-Matt

Curby

11-09-2010, 10:09 PM

f|i[p]

11-10-2010, 12:31 AM

@Vesper Ghoul

First of all, I wasn't trying to convert anyone to play dutch stax.As I myself play armageddon stax. I never had a single moat, but if I did have 3 copies, I would probably play dutch stax. But that won't happen unless the moats fall from the sky onto my lap. I was simply trying to explain the differences of dutch and armageddon stax, and why I think dutch stax has an advantage over geddonstax. THe thread is generally for stax, before we even had a dutch stax thread it was already talked about here. THey have almost the same style of play, with only a few differences in win con as well as protection. So again, I'm not trying to convince people to move to dutch stax. I'm just simply stating my thoughts on it.

@sdematt

Yes you are right to say that rock is a bad match up for us. I remember that when I used to play stax, I dropped it because rock was filling up the metagame.P.deed owns us. However if you followed the thread way back, around page 71 or so I was already advocating the splash of green for krosan grips and chokes. Krosan grip helped me deal with dreadnought as well as pernicious deed. And if people asked me if it was worth it, yes it is. If rock was trying to come back, you can side both karmic and krosan grips to help out.

sdematt

11-10-2010, 02:45 PM

Oh don't worry Flip, I've advocated the Green Splash for years, except I've been playing Choke with no Grip. My board is as follows:

4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Choke
3 Karmic Justice
4 Suppression Field

Leylines deal with Combo and discard and Burn and Jace; Field is for Zoo, Fetch heavy decks, Jace, Deed, etc.; Karmic is just for Deed and targeted removal, and good against Grip/Predator; Choke is for Blue heavy decks. Grip is most definitely a worthy addition, but so far, I've found this lineup pretty decent against the majority of the field (Thopter and Landstill and Rock are pretty much our worst matchups, I think. If Thopter can crap tokens to outrace you on Smokestack or drop Jace, it's hard. Rock's discard and removal and Landstill's counterpower backed with Deed can hurt, too).

All in all, I still think we're in a good place in the Meta right now. I think the main problems plaguing us are consistency and cost. Were it not for those issues I think we'd be putting up great numbers. $180 Moats and $250 Tabernacles aren't easy to purchase...

-Matt

Vesper Ghoul

11-10-2010, 03:28 PM

Vesper, what's your list? I've been thinking about the Muse; oftentimes Prisons are what the deck looks like it would like to use 6 of. I'm just a little concerned with having to pay a lot of upkeep to Magus, but as always it probably hurts them much more than it does us.

List since February

2 Baneslayer Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Suppression Field
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
1 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Nomad Stadium
5 Plains
4 Wasteland

Testing

2 Windborne Muse
2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Suppression Field
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy/ or Ghost Quarter (tinkering)
2 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale
5 Plains
4 Wasteland

3 Pieces from my sideboard which I found myself boarding in almost constantly are now in the main Tabernacle and 2 Muses.

New SB
1 Suppression Field
1 Trinisphere
3 Bottled Cloister (discard and control match ups)
3 Defense Grid (I think this may become Choke for Folk)
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Smokestack
2 Pithing Needle

@f|i[p]
No disrespect I wasn't targeting anyone I've been on this thread a while and it always become "Dutchie."

Curby

11-10-2010, 04:10 PM

Stax decks without Stax seem a bit odd. I take it that instead of setting up a hard lock, you tend to just Geddon repeatedly while racing for the win before they can stabilize? Have you tried switching out ORing for Stax?

Also, why 2x Karakas? Do you see a lot of Iona? Would Karakas change to more Canopies or Savannahs if you were to go to Chokes in the side?

I like the idea of maindeck Supp Fields, so I'll be trying to fit them in. I'm just not sure yet what I should take out, though Smokestack seems like the popular option. =)

Vesper Ghoul

11-10-2010, 06:10 PM

I have switched the two cards and found that Oring get rid of what I need when its needed. Where as a stck get rid of everything else but.

2X Karakas is because I had/have a ton of zoo players in my area and Gaddok Teeg is a pain as well as Emrakul, Iona, and a host of others (In the last year Reanimator was still relevant.) With Diamond I really never saw it as an issue 3x was too much and 1x Lands in the deck as we know are hard to find. As far as if I go green splash I would be looking squarely possibly one Savannah and one more canopy. But surprisingly I have been looking at cutting one or both Factories which are not nearly as good with the Suppression Field. The same could be said for the Canopy but drawing extra cards when needed seems more relevant in "Soft Lock" mode.

I'm not going to lie I was forced to run the fields originally because I needed 3 more Smokestacks so I ran 3 and 1. As time went by I learned to love Field more than the Stacks once I got them. I have looked back and tried to squeeze in the stacks again but it just never worked out.

3 fields is optimal in main with the board much like the 3sphere is only boarded in situations where activation is 100% key to winning like against 43 land and Survival for Field and Storm for 3sphere.

Good luck and Don't let the Nostalgia of Legacy lure you to stay with the older cards even if they are great ones. I borrowed Stax before I bought it and the borrowed deck ran 4x Stack so it not like I didnt play it or know how it works before I bought my deck.

f|i[p]

11-10-2010, 10:12 PM

A staxless stax is ok, as smokestack usually gets sided out in my case... Most other decks tend to put more permanents than you. Windborn muses never worked for me as they were often easily killed and couldn't block at all. If you don't like swarms, you could try silent arbiter instead of windborn muse, this ensures that only one creature can attack. its 1/5 and can definitely block those 3/3s and 4/5s however, if you were using muse for synergy with armageddon then I guess muse is the way to go.

Some of the decks that interested me long ago was a staxless stax build and a moxless stax build. It gives you more space for actual spells. KotR also tempted me a lot since it gave me easy access to tabernacles, wastelands , maze of ith and boseiju for uncounterability. However Knight never gave me the lifelink that I found necessary for stax.

JamSpot

11-13-2010, 04:19 AM

;500528']A staxless stax is ok, as smokestack usually gets sided out in my case....

Just for info, the Stax deck isn't named after Smokestack. This article (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/5273_T4KS_The_Four_Thousand_Dollar_Solution_To_The_Type_One_Metagame.html) explains how T$4KS is an acronym for The Four Thousand Dollar Solution. Switch the $ and the T and you have Stax.

sdematt

11-13-2010, 10:48 AM

Yeah, that's true, but most Stax lists run Smokestack as a board control permanent. Vintage Stax is the 4k Solution, Legacy Stax not so much.

-Matt

wally2345

11-22-2010, 01:55 PM

Yeah, that's true, but most Stax lists run Smokestack as a board control permanent. Vintage Stax is the 4k Solution, Legacy Stax not so much.

-Matt

Technically it can be considered the 2k solution but that's all relative.

Anyway on to my main point. With the emergence of Vengevival decks over the past few months shouldn't this be the deck to play in the metagame. Supression fields, 3-spheres, and ghostly prisons slow their game down to a halt all of which can be dropped turn 1 or 2.

Koby

11-22-2010, 03:54 PM

Linvala is probably great against them too, along with Magus of the Tabernacle (wall/tax). Pithing Needle is still underutilized at this point (and stops both Shaman and SOTF).

sdematt

11-22-2010, 05:16 PM

The deck is good against the G/w (better) version of Vengevival. It's not as good against the GB version due to Trygon Predator. Most of the time, we can win due to Trinisphere, which really shuts down the Madness triggers. Choke and Suppression Field are an absolute house, so yes, depending on your build, play the deck! Remember those Tabernacle effects, kids!

-Matt

FieryBalrog

12-08-2010, 12:29 AM

I've done OK with this deck vs both UG and GW survival (it's pretty easy vs GW if you run Suppression Field for QPM).

The real problem with the deck is still its inconsistency and lack of good turn 1 plays.

conboy31

12-08-2010, 01:04 AM

I have played W and Wb geddon stax and then moved to GW survival a year or two back. I don't think I have lost a match to wstax with GW survival. None of the lists had tabernacle at pendrell vale main or side that I played against. I think that is a mistake. I have not played with or against the versions that have suppression fields. That obviously has profound implications when it comes down early.

GU has predator yes. However, GW has multiple maindeck copies of pridemage, possibly a singleton teeg. In the board it will probably have 3 kgrips, a teeg, among any other incidental hate.

Before VV was printed I had like 2 teegs md and honestly felt bad for the stax player as he was the one who could not play magic.

sadakiyo

12-21-2010, 02:52 AM

Hi guys, I went to a small tourney yesterday (12 people) and I got into top 4 with geddon stax.
The match that I lost was vengevine survival and enchantress.
Since survival has been banned, I wouldn't worry about it too much, but for enchantress, I want to be prepared next time. WHat is a good sideboard for this kind of match up? I saw some enchantment hate cards like :tempest of light, aura of silence, etc.
Any suggestion?

sdematt

12-21-2010, 03:05 AM

Suppression Field, Leyline of Sanctity, Tranquility, AURA OF SILENCE are all pretty good, but Aura of Silence especially.

-Matt

Apple

12-21-2010, 07:33 AM

Before I start testing with this, I'd like to know: How does this fare against fish, blecher and rock? Any tech to make them better against those three decks?

Hopo

12-21-2010, 08:30 AM

Before I start testing with this, I'd like to know: How does this fare against fish, blecher and rock? Any tech to make them better against those three decks?

What's wrong with Ghostly Prison, Magus, Tabernacle, Moat, Humility, Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void and so on? Rock can be really bad, though, since Pernicious Deed is terrific against decks consisting of 100% permanents. If opponent lands a deed there's not much you can do, you are bound to lose at least all moxen and chalices if not more.

Apple

12-21-2010, 12:20 PM

Ah, my list wasn't running moats and humility. That might be the problem. Yes, deeds and resolved permenants are a concern. Enchantress also appears to be a pain right now, with o-rings and the like main.

I take it I should keep smokestack at one normally, to go with crucible?

sdematt

12-21-2010, 12:23 PM

Your best cards against Belcher are Chalice, Trinisphere, Tabernacle, and Leyline of Sanctity in the board.

Against Rock/Landstill, Karmic justice in the board makes their Deeds useless, and Leyline of Sanctity blocks Rock's discard.

Fish isn't bad if you're running Moats/Humilities. Regular Stax doesn't have a terrible game, but I use Choke in the sideboard to help out against them. Chalice on 1/2 is really bad for them. Chalice at 2 is worse: Counters their Lords and bounce spells.

-Matt

bennotsi

12-22-2010, 10:41 AM

Hi guys, I'm new to posting here, although I've been reading for a while.

I noticed the discussion on Leonin Arbiter a couple of pages back. While I know that the arbiter is somewhat redundant towards fetch with a suppression field in play, I was wondering if you guys considered that Leonin Arbiter turns Ghost Quarters into Strip Mines.

I'm already in favor of running a one-off Ghost Quarter, however, with Arbiter you could consider increasing the number of Ghost Quarters. Would this be something worth exploring?

There is off course the downside that Arbiter is a creature and it could catch a lightning bolt quite easily, and it also hurts flagstones of trokair.

sadakiyo

12-23-2010, 02:35 AM

How about presence of the masters instead of aura of silence as SB for ecnhantress MU? The CMC is higher but it requires only 1 white mana. Off course we wont be able to play ghostly prison and O-ring, but hey.. we dont need the Ghostly prison in this MU and without O-ring we can still win this MU, right?

jesse_1

12-25-2010, 05:24 AM

Hi, this is my first post on this website, 2 years ago i was heavily into magic, but only legacy, and i am back, this is how i left my staxx deck. Only reason i am posting this is because i have no idea whats been going on since i have been out of the game for 2 years, so a lot can change i assume. Here's my last build:

Lands (25):
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Plains
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Kor Haven
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Savannah

Creatures (4):
4 Magus of the Tabernacle

Plansewalkers (2):
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sorceries (4):
4 Armageddon

Enchantments (6):
3 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring

Artifacts (19):
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack

Sideaboard(15):
3 Aura of Silence
3 Choke
3 Karmic Justice
3 Suppression Field
3 Tormod's Crypt

I run 3 staxx because 4 seemed to much, and i would always draw one, now i only run 3, and i still draw them.

Ravages of War and Moat are out of consideration, i remember when they were only $50 USD a piece, but wow did they sky rocket in price. Ghost Quarter was essentially my strip mine, then i would geddon.

I just like how Elspeth has worked out for me, i havent taken a look at any new sets, since i am just getting back into the format, so all feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Barbwire

12-26-2010, 12:26 PM

My question in general is why everybody runs Magus of the Tabernacle but not the REAL tabernacle...it frees up that one more mana required to keep the Magus up, also responding to jesse_1, you might try the newer elspeth, seems she might have more of a control aspect to her.

Again, I'm not a stax player but have had the displeasure of having to play agianst it multiple times (angel stax build), my usual deck is U/W Counterthopter, which I haven't had a real issue against stacks due to the fact I don't let him resolve any spells.

Just my 2 cents worth, but I would like to know why Magus of Tabernacle is ran over The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.

FieryBalrog

12-26-2010, 01:08 PM

Mainly because Magus blocks and swings. Magus usually has a better interaction with Armageddon.

The blocking is huge. At least back in the day, the primary concern was not creature swarms but singleton fatties like Goyf or Nimble Mongoose. Magus is awesome because he punishes creature swarms and holds the fort vs most Goyfs, whereas TaPV rarely does much vs Goyf; its easy to pay a single creature's upkeep. That is still relevant today it seems. Magus also acts as a redundant win-con, whereas using the land means you have to give up another slot to pack in win-cons. The interaction with Geddon is also important. If you have TaPV out and the opponent has a bunch of creatures out, Armageddon will often be a terrible idea for you. With Magus out, Armageddon is amazing.

There are also other pros and cons (wasteland vs swords, costing land drops vs 1 mana upkeep, etc.) but for me Magus comes out way ahead.

stasis

12-29-2010, 03:48 AM

yesterday i went 3-1 and won a small turnament at our local store with 10 ppl attending. 3 others was also 3-1 but i won on "better" match ups. (i beat 2/3 of the other top3)

I ditched the deck a month ago after tested it for 3-4 weeks. I didnt worked the way i wanted it to.
I traded to me some Workshopes and made a type1 MUD version that included tangle wire. It was the missing link so for the holiday legacy turnament i gave it a last try =)

will update post with decklist when im back home
my match ups was
1. a version with GBU forze, goyf, confidant, explosives etc (2-1) top4
2. WRG Zoo, lost to Elsbeth flighing pump twise (1-2)
3. par up and meet Merfolk (2-1) top4
4. black with hatred (2-0)

Tangle wire was a real blast in all the match ups, it bought me the time i needed for finding and dropping other lock pieces.
I sided in suppression field in all the matches exept the last. My feeling is it belongs into the maindeck.

amppyou

01-02-2011, 07:03 PM

GoldenCid

01-03-2011, 07:35 PM

Hey Fiery Balrog,

I'm considering picking up Geddon Stax because I expect there to be a lot of combo in my meta, but I also want to be prepared for the inevitables of zoo, fish, and goblins. I am hoping you can post the list you are currently running.

thanks.

I'm not balrog but i've run the deck for long time and gave it uo for a while and i want to restart with it with the banning of survival.
Here's my list (the more successful one) for comments:

3 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
2 Baneslayer Angel
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Wasteland
1 Kor Haven
7 Plains
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Oblivion Ring

SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 Karmic Justice
SB: 1 Moat
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Defense Grid
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring

What do you thing of Karmic Justice in the side??

GoldenCid

01-04-2011, 05:47 PM

i've read in some places that Karmic Justice is one of the most valuable tools you have vs. Pernicious Deed. I haven't played this deck before, but Rock was a pretty popular choice during the tail end of the survival meta. I'm sure others will be playing b/g rockish decks since the deck is usually considered to have 50% game 1 vs. everything thanks to its discard

I agree. Against deck like you mentioned fulled of permanent removal, karmic justice is a great option!

Noman Peopled

01-05-2011, 07:43 AM

It's important to not overextend even with Karmic Justice, though. You'll eat their board with KJ but if you have anything worth blowing up there will be little of relevance on their side of the board. With the exception of lands, which is definitely a saving grace. KJ's worthless if they can play around the stuff you played (simultaneously making it easier because you drew one less lock piece) or if they don't draw Deed. It's not as good an option as I'd like but it certainly helps.
It works well against pinpoint removal, though, as what you'll get will basically be an O-Ring (at least one) but they have to spend a relevant card. On the flip side, it won't actually protect your most important pieces, just make trading for them unfavorable.

I have found O-Ring to be a very satisfying answer to Deed, provided the mana denial works enough to keep them off six mana. A fast Smokestack also works well. Neither will save your Moxen and Chalices, though (not that KJ would but at least you get to geddon them). Suppression Field helps, or Needle out of the board. That's assuming they're justified in the relevant metagame, though. Both work reasonably well against Vial decks, too. (Vial is instrumental in swarming the board with permanents to overload Smokestack, especially early on. Plus, of course, it produces quick starts. And makes Disenchant Cat free to play.)

Parax

01-05-2011, 10:55 PM

Cataclysm? good or not good?

Noman Peopled

01-06-2011, 05:39 AM

Cataclysm? good or not good?
Too situation-dependant. It looks like the perfect fit; the theory looks nice. I was playing two for a while since I don't own Ravages. It certainly can leave you in an extremely comfortable position, but it does so surprisingly rarely.
It's dependent on what exactly it is you have out, and whether you need all of it. Let's not forget that other decks will be casting permanents too, (even CounterTop can screw us royally) and they also will seek to maximize their impact. Stax is quite well-known for achieving its denial by a multitude of interlocking lock pieces rather than just one or two.
In any situation where you'd be able to walk away with both an artifact and an enchantment, Armageddon will probably buy more time. With the exception of creature swarms. Against a swarm, CC would at least prevent any further activated abilities and also help get Smokestack going without Crucible. Geddon is better against a single fattie (it's also better against Vial since it leaves them with no mana for tax payments). Creature swarms aren't all that common nowadays and there's enough swarm control available anyway.
The problems are compunded by Disenchant Cat, which will eat your best permanent in response to CC, quite possibly leaving you with something irrelevant or something that can be played around more easily. It's impossible to Cataclysm and reliably maintain a Crucible/Stack lock. And CC just plain sucks with O-Ring on the table.

4zureSky

01-27-2011, 10:46 PM

Did you guys see the new Mirrodin Besieged cards? Inkmoth Nexus is looks REALLY good imo.
With this, we have another way to take our opponents down :O And its a land so its recurring :) I don't like how they have so many bombs to hate on artifacts now =/
http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/mbs/db75vff04e_en.jpg

Valtrix

01-27-2011, 10:54 PM

Noman Peopled

01-28-2011, 04:36 AM

I'm not sure I see why inkmoth nexus is so strong in this shell. Is the 10 turn clock in a land really all that relevant? I mean, I guess with crucible you can slowly run down creatures, but that seems like a slow an ineffective strategy...
I could maybe see it if manlands were the only creatures in the deck ...

But then I'd come to my senses and realize that a 3/3 blocker trumps a 1/1 blocker, infect flyer or no. I can see some merit in nibbling away at an attacking Goyf that's too large to block profitably with Mishra's. But you need Crucible either way, and the only difference is that they'll lose a Goyf five to six turn from now, which isn't worth Inkmoth's inability to kill Nacatls/Lions/Fish in defensive combat (and without the support of Crucible, no less).

I tend to win more games by Magus beatdown than via Factories - and I'm not even playing Elspeth or Baneslayer or anything. Attacking with manlands is something I do when I can't/shouldn't play anything new. We're not in a hurry, are we ;)

Parax

01-31-2011, 11:38 PM

So i'm full of newb questions, as i really like this deck and would love for it to work.

I hear often that this would be the best deck in the format if it didn't beat itself due to bad topdecks. Why wouldn't it run Enlightened Tutor in the spots of the 4 ofs that we don't want to see multiples of? The Tutors would basically grab everything we could want from the deck (Exceot Elspeth and Magus) but everything else is free game. Up Elspeth to 3 and keep Magus to 4.

Noman Peopled

02-01-2011, 04:16 AM

Because ET
1) sucks with Chalice, 3sphere, and Smokestack
2) eats a card
3) needs a turn

ET is a solid t1 play but later only becomes worse most of the times. It's a lategame spell unless we can spare W in the early game, while being made worse not only by our own lock pieces, but also by its delayed impact. If you really need something specific after the first few turns, chances are you want it early rather than late. Sure, if you need something specific, it still might help more a turn later.
The problem remains that we're losing at least a turn (two under 3sphere) and sacrificing two draws to get only one card (particularly problematic with Smokestack) - if we don't have Chalice out, at which point we're down one card anyway. Another point is that basically anyone with access to W and G is playing Quasali Pridemage. ET offers a tasty 2-for-one for the Cat. Plus, everybody with access to G will be bringing in Grips for the same effect. Also, counterspells - again, the same problem.

It's a fine sb choice if you really, really want something t2 consistently. I played a bunch of E-Tutors sb against combo for a while so I could get at Chalice/3sphere t2 more consistently without hurting my chances of t1 Chalice/3sphere. I could only do that because there are maindeck cards that are utterly dead against combo and because Chalice had enough of an impact to make up for subsequently dead ETs.
This is not the case in most matchups, however. In most cases, all lock pieces will do something. In fact, against most decks you want a mixture, starting as early as possible. ET does something better, but a turn later, and for the cost of a card, while not playing well with lock pieces already in place.

FieryBalrog

02-01-2011, 12:07 PM

"Why don't I run E Tutor" is the first thing I thought of when trying this deck as on theory it seems amazing. It's terrible, don't run it. Chalice @ 1 is very common and is your second best turn 1 play in most matchups. Also costing a whole turn in this deck sucks.

Parax

02-08-2011, 08:10 PM

Hey guys thanks for the comments on the ET. After much debate i think i'm going to have to agree with it. I think that i really want to make the "top decks matter" and am pretty determined to do it.

How are people liking Crystal Ball? I know many people are playing it in Dutch Stax, but is it viable here too?

Does anyone splash red to any sucsess? We could utilize Goblin Welder and Ajani V pretty well i think.

sdematt

02-08-2011, 09:29 PM

Let's put it this way: I've cut copies of Smokestack for more Crystal balls. It's not like Top, you can dig deeper the more you have. It's amazing in a deck that has no other manipulation. I suggest 3.

-MAtt

Parax

02-08-2011, 10:35 PM

Thanks for your patience Matt, you mind posting up your list? I'm only running 3 Smokestack as it is, so how many are you playing with the CB? I can't seem to warrant the cuts without watering down the whole deck. Should i drop a 3sphere, a Stack and a Land (Ancient Tomb maybe).

Hashinator89

03-20-2011, 10:28 PM

Here's a list I've been fooling around with on MWS for a few weeks:

2 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Mishra's Factory
5 Plains
1 Tundra
4 Wasteland

4 Magus of the Tabernacle
1 Sun Titan

4 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere

2 Aura of Silence
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Suppression Field
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere

I've basically cut Somkestack for a Tangle Wire based list. It's been pretty good, but it still bends over to Merfolk and needs more answers for Gaddock Teeg.

Mackan

04-05-2011, 07:21 AM

I don't have any real experience with this deck... but I have a few ideas and questions.

Why play creatures? even with chalice at 1 magus and baneslayer are just begging to die.
Is Tangle Wire that good? I don't like a fading control element but the temporal buff might be worth it?
Why no love for Maze of Ith? It seems like a really good follow up after armageddon. Taxing creatures even more, especially those stoneforge mystics ...>)
The curve is quite high as it is so I figured the Maze could take slots from O-rings and such.
Sideboard? what cards are hot at the moment?

ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Ghostly Prison
SORCERIES (4)
4 Armageddon
PLANESWALKERS (4)
4 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
ARTIFACTS (20)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
LANDS (28)
4 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
8 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Suppression Field
2 Karmic Justice
3 Defense Grid

JadeOberg

04-05-2011, 04:37 PM

Does anyone feel like Smokestacks is too slow in the current format? Suitable replacements? I've been testing Loadstone Golem...kind of meh so far.

Sammich

04-14-2011, 12:09 PM

What do you guys do against junk? It has been infesting my meta and it's a really hard matchup between the discard the permanent destruction and many three drops.

Here's a list I've been fooling around with on MWS for a few weeks:

2 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Mishra's Factory
5 Plains
1 Tundra
4 Wasteland

4 Magus of the Tabernacle
1 Sun Titan

4 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere

2 Aura of Silence
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Suppression Field
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere

I've basically cut Somkestack for a Tangle Wire based list. It's been pretty good, but it still bends over to Merfolk and needs more answers for Gaddock Teeg.
Why oh why do people think tangle wire is a good choice? What does it do?

Turn 1: it stops either of you from doing much(except for their first turn if you're on the play), while this doesn't seem so bad it's actually horrible, you give them time to build up mana while hindering your ability to play lock pieces.

Turn 2: after a chalice at 1 it actually seems decent, but then it goes away and you're left wishing you had dropped another lock piece instead of again letting them get lands while you can't play many lock pieces.

later than that it's basically a fog for a couple of turns, again I would want a lock piece here unless they got a dreadnought or progenitus, but either way once the wire is gone you're still probably going to lose. Don't forget 8 of your lands tap for two mana, that means quite frequently tapping 1 land will make you lose 2 mana which is our main advantage over other decks. I guess if you have 2 other lock pieces out it only taps your opponents stuff but we want to be consistently putting down permanent mana denial pieces not playing cards that are only good to give you tempo in the late game. Smoke stack at least can act as resource denial in a pinch while also being a win condition and lock piece.

I don't have any real experience with this deck... but I have a few ideas and questions.

Why play creatures? even with chalice at 1 magus and baneslayer are just begging to die.
Is Tangle Wire that good? I don't like a fading control element but the temporal buff might be worth it?
Why no love for Maze of Ith? It seems like a really good follow up after armageddon. Taxing creatures even more, especially those stoneforge mystics ...>)
The curve is quite high as it is so I figured the Maze could take slots from O-rings and such.
Sideboard? what cards are hot at the moment?

ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Ghostly Prison
SORCERIES (4)
4 Armageddon
PLANESWALKERS (4)
4 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
ARTIFACTS (20)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
LANDS (28)
4 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
8 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Suppression Field
2 Karmic Justice
3 Defense Grid
We play magus because it is mana denial, creature kill and a win condition all in one, yes it will probably be killed if they can but most of the time against aggro decks they will have to give up a creature if they want to kill it while tying up their mana in which case they lose a turn and 2 cards for your one. Not to mention it blocks goyf almost all day. We need something more than ghostly to deal with creatures, it's basically this, tabernacle(the land) or wrath. tabernacle it a viable choice I just prefer magus because it is much more flexible and works much better with geddon.

Baneslayer on the other hand is a little different but similar in some ways. Obviously she's a finisher that goes without saying, she can be quite devastating on turn three or four and especially the very unlikely turn two play, she can single handedly save you in the aggro match up where the game can quickly get away from you if they get a couple things out ahead of you. almost every finisher this deck has used has had lifelink and that's because ancient tomb damage can get out of hand very easily especially now that most people play horizon canopy and because again because of aggro.

on maze of ith, this is a very mana intensive deck, running lands that don't tap for mana dangerous. tabernacle is usually fine because you play it as a 1 of or 2 if you're feeling ballsy. Now you could play maze as a one of too but kor haven is jut as good in this deck because not activating immediately after a geddon is made up for the fact that it actually takes up a land slot and not a spell slot.

I don't think I would play this deck without at least 2 orings(I play 3) again because of their flexibility, they are the only spot removal we have and it can target other perms too. Since we have no card selection we need our cards to fill as many roles as possible. I, and many others, couldn't find a way to make crystal ball viable unless I was cutting stacks out completely since less than three wasn't consistent enough, even then I never found a point where I wouldn't rather have a lock piece except late game(where I usually already had a semi lock and was looking for a way to finish the game before they found an answer, of course most of the time stack would win the game itself here) or if I had a bad hand. Even with a bad hand the ball wouldn't help because it's so slow but I guess it's better than stack there.

Does anyone feel like Smokestacks is too slow in the current format? Suitable replacements? I've been testing Loadstone Golem...kind of meh so far.
I think it is slow most of the time but there will always be match up where it is great and dropping a combination of crucible and stack turns and 2 usually ends the game. I play 3 and it is usually the first card to take out but I think there are more times when it wins you the game than where it's too slow.

I was wondering how often it matters that elspeth pumps goyf for your opponents. I'm thinking of diversifying my win cons from 2 baneslayer, I tried wurmcoil it seemed to be on the same level as baneslayer a little better if you see a lot of dreadnoughts and proggies but doesn't get past their smaller dudes and sometimes worse if you see a lot of tombstalkers. I think elspeth is the next thing I'm going to try.