[Deck] Armageddon Stax

[Sammich]

I try to win 1, board out Trinispheres and chalices or some one ofs (depending you feel the play extirpate or deboard swords), board in Dumping Matrix and pithing needle, than I hope in top deck mode for waste lock, O-ringing Confidants and getting Crucible seems crucial to me

pithing needle is an odd choice, how often do you side out chalice? I don't think would side it out against junk as it hit thoughtseize primarily as well as swords and top at one and so much at two. As for pithing needle I like to use suppression field instead so I don't lock my elf out of my sb cards in half the games I side them in and we usually have the mana to activate wasteland while opponents usually don't and since it hits everything at once and plays into the mana denial theme doubly by hitting fetches. Damping matrix is interesting it definitely solves the pridemage problem and swords at the same time and is great against the vial aggro decks.

I'm going to have to try out a couple new sbs now to find the right combination of activated ability hate. But I think we need a way to stop their creature pressure since they have so many outs.

[Seems Good]

I'm not balrog but i've run the deck for long time and gave it uo for a while and i want to restart with it with the banning of survival.
Here's my list (the more successful one) for comments:

3 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
2 Baneslayer Angel
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Wasteland
1 Kor Haven
7 Plains
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Oblivion Ring

SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 Karmic Justice
SB: 1 Moat
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Defense Grid
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring

What do you thing of Karmic Justice in the side??

I've been running x2 Baneslayer Angel (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Baneslayer%20Angel) for a while now...it only impresses me against already good matchups like Zoo and Gobs, which has been seeing much less play since the inception of Mental Misstep. What are peoples feelings on this card?

I saw someone post they're playing x1 Sun Titan (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sun%20Titan), seems like an interesting choice. Anyone have thoughts from testing this? It appears like a much better "bomb" / >4 cmc slot...I find I get most trouble when my big 3 drops get countered/blown up early and I'm struggling to top deck pieces without a draw engine..

[Seems Good]

Anyone else getting excited for Sundial of the Infinite ?

[GoldenCid]

Anyone else getting excited for Sundial of the Infinite ?

Meh, why do you ask?

[Noman Peopled]

It makes arbitrarily large Smokestacks run until the opponent is decked. Apart from that, it does nothing. In a deck with little to no draw I wouldn't bother implementing the combo.
Seems like a good way to make people hate you though.

[bruizar]

If you're one game behind, the Sundial combo makes you go to time and you've lost the match.

[paeng4983]

It makes arbitrarily large Smokestacks run until the opponent is decked. Apart from that, it does nothing. In a deck with little to no draw I wouldn't bother implementing the combo.
Seems like a good way to make people hate you though.

you sound like a modern stasis.
lols
anyway kidding aside, im also trying this SOI.
hmmm... cannot really tell if this will bring this deck back to the scene.
on the positive note, it has a perfect ability to combat hivemind decks.

[nayon]

It makes arbitrarily large Smokestacks run until the opponent is decked. Apart from that, it does nothing. In a deck with little to no draw I wouldn't bother implementing the combo.
Seems like a good way to make people hate you though.

Don't people bring in artifact hate against stax? killing your sundial makes it pretty bad for you, no?

[Curby]

If you have a lock, they should probably concede anyway. If you don't have a lock, ramping the Stack and passing turn might not help. Btw if the opp had artifact removal, they wouldn't wait for Stack and Sundial and who knows what else to show up before playing it. Waiting when playing against a board control deck isn't a winning strategy.

[Seems Good]

Can anyone post the list that did well in the SCG Open over the weekend?

[Fropper]

I can't find a Stax Deck within the top 16, what place did it made?

[Rizso]

If you're one game behind, the Sundial combo makes you go to time and you've lost the match.

If there isnt anything your opponent can do but draw go and he is in the tank then he is doing slow play and he can be given a warning.

[Gammadoom]

I can't find a Stax Deck within the top 16, what place did it made?

29th. Lost the last round to drop out of the top 16.

[TraxDaMax]

In the Staxless version, has anyone tried SFM-Batterskull package? Thanks in advance

[Seems Good]

Misstep is banned, I think this deck has huge potential in the coming weeks. Aggro and Combo will see a huge increase in play...our two best matchups. Anyone else getting ready to sleeve this up?

[Swindy]

i would love to but having never played the deck before and not having a current list to test with and change up for my meta i cant :(

[Seems Good]

Try this:

4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Oblivion Ring

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
5 Plains

SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Defense Grid
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring

Should be ample combo and aggro hate, 2 MD speth for any lingering blue control players.

[Einherjer]

Im new to this archetype, but the only winconditions are 2 Elspeths? Isnt this a lil few?

[Quark.Nova]

You could beat them with your Magus and the Factorys too. Some Lists run a single Baneslayer Angel as additional wincon.

[Seems Good]

Im new to this archetype, but the only winconditions are 2 Elspeths? Isnt this a lil few?

You don't even need elspeth. Magus and Factory are plenty of win conditions. Once you establish a lock, which should be by turn 3-4 at the latest, you just sit there and beat for 2 while your opponent squirms.

[Einherjer]

Playtested it now with a list without Elspeth and I gotta say i really like this deck. Its done well vs Merfolk, 50-50 vs Deadguy and 45-55 vs Maverick :)
Not too bad and its FUN

Greetings

[Seems Good]

Playtested it now with a list without Elspeth and I gotta say i really like this deck. Its done well vs Merfolk, 50-50 vs Deadguy and 45-55 vs Maverick :)
Not too bad and its FUN

Greetings

Glad to hear you like it. It's definitely an outlier deck so people tend not to board hate against it with the exception of your standard artifact hate (KGrip, etc.). If you're getting those results vs. midrange decks, wait until you test against aggro (Zoo, Goblins) and combo (TES, High Tide). Only keep hands that allow you to plop down a prison piece turns 1, 2 and 3 and you will kill.

[Einherjer]

thats the Deck im playing atm:
//Making Mana
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 Flagstones of Trokair
6 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Mox Diamond

//Using Mana

4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Armageddon
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Oblivion Ring



Any tips from people more accquented with this deck? Thank you

[overseer1234]

Personaly I would cut 1 of each:
Trinisphere (you only need 1 in play anyway)
Magus of the tabernacle (unless your meta is that filled with agro)
Oblivion ring (Ive always found 3 to be enough for the main deck)

And put them in the sideboard

Main deck you could ad 2 elspeth, knight errant, and 1 extra land (Ive always found 24 to be just 1 to few to consistently have enough lands to play mox diamond).

[Seems Good]

For the most part I agree with overseer. You should be at 25 lands (some even play 26). Landwise I would cut 1 plains, then add 1 flagstones (you always want flagstones over plains so it's a 4-of) and add 1 factory. Often if you see two stones you also see a diamond to pitch one to.

In the business section, I'd cut one O Ring, one 3sphere, and one Smokestack. While stack is the namesake of the deck, you don't necessarily want to see it every game. Often you can survive for a few turns while your opponent is in a soft lock until you draw into it to end the game.

[sdematt]

Honestly, as much as I love the deck, I really can't play it anymore. If your bomb lockpieces get countered, you basically have nothing. You don't have card draw, etc.

I've found Elspeth is an absolute house. Armageddon is obviously a must. I think 26-27 lands is the real "good" number, since you'll want to fit in plains, Factories, and Tabernacles.

I've been playing Crystal Ball in this deck for a while and it helped immensely.

-Matt

[Einherjer]

What would your list look like?

[Seems Good]

Yeah matt please post your latest list. The one thing this deck severely lacks, as mentioned, is card draw. I've heard some splash for green for Library and even KotR. I'd interested in trying that.

[Shax]

I would play some number of Ravages of War in that list of yours, Philipp802. It serves as different named Armageddon filling numbers x5-8.

[Moduloc]

What do are the thoughts of batterskull for a wincon.
-Bounce is good.
-Not having to pay upkeep with magus and tabernacle could mean something
-Lifelink is good.
-double white sometimes is a pain for angels and or walkers.
-Could equip to a factory
-humility builds really get an advantage with it. germ gets bigger.
Thoughts?

[Steveman]

What do are the thoughts of batterskull for a wincon.
-Bounce is good.
-Not having to pay upkeep with magus and tabernacle could mean something
-Lifelink is good.
-double white sometimes is a pain for angels and or walkers.
-Could equip to a factory
-humility builds really get an advantage with it. germ gets bigger.
Thoughts?

If it were 4 mana, sure, it'd be the new Exalted Angel. At 5 mana though, it's too expensive. Any experienced Stax player knows that the gap between 4-5 mana is much larger than the gap from 3-4 mana. Although Batterskull may look great against Aggro, there's no way you can consistently get 5 mana before you're in the redzone.

4 mana is the cap for any spell in the deck because Stax needs to be ABLE to play all their spells by turn 3. 5 mana is too much of a liability when you're fighting through Wasteland, Daze, and Spell Pierce. Wasteland can be devastating because 1 of your opponent's Wastelands often takes away two of your mana in one swoop.

[overseer1234]

If it were 4 mana, sure, it'd be the new Exalted Angel. At 5 mana though, it's too expensive. Any experienced Stax player knows that the gap between 4-5 mana is much larger than the gap from 3-4 mana. Although Batterskull may look great against Aggro, there's no way you can consistently get 5 mana before you're in the redzone.

4 mana is the cap for any spell in the deck because Stax needs to be ABLE to play all their spells by turn 3. 5 mana is too much of a liability when you're fighting through Wasteland, Daze, and Spell Pierce. Wasteland can be devastating because 1 of your opponent's Wastelands often takes away two of your mana in one swoop.

Dunno, but: Baneslayer did prove to be effective sometimes... Batterskull is practically the same for this deck, only collorless (double white does become an issue sometimes...). So just maybe it could work out fine...

Although I'll settle for Elspeth for now.

[Seems Good]

I played Baneslayer for a while and found that while it was killer vs. aggro, it was always a dead card vs. combo/control. The thing is, we already have a killer aggro matchup, so we don't really need this card. We should be focusing on finding cards that allow us to consistently establish our lock more easily. Factory/Magus/Speth can end the game no problem once we do that.

[sdematt]

I'll try and post my list when I actually find my deck :P

-Matt

[Parax]

Deck List

19 Artifact

4 x Chalice of the Void
4 x Crucible of Worlds
4 x Mox Diamond
3 x Smokestack
4 x Trinisphere

25Land

4 x Ancient Tomb
4 x City of Traitors
3 x Flagstones of Trokair
2 x Horizon Canopy
2 x Mishra's Factory
7 x Plains
3 x Wasteland

16White

2 x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 x Ghostly Prison
4 x Magus of the Tabernacle
3 x Oblivion Ring
4 x Armageddon

SB:

Artifact

2 x Defense Grid
4 x Tormod's Crypt

White
3 x Karmic Justice
4 x Leyline of Sanctity
2 x Suppression Field

This is the list that i have sleeved up right now. I'm not really too sold on the SB, but as far as the main deck i like canopy better than Crystal Ball as its harder to keep a land out of play than an Artifact. Sure its more reliant on Crucible, but sticking a cruicible is pretty cruicial to the deck anyways. So if we don't stick one, we're in for a upward battle anyways.

[BleiDD]

This is the list I've been using recently

Main
Lands :25

4x Wasteland
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
1x Kor Haven
1x Horizon Canopy
5x Plains
3x Flagstones of Trokair
2x Mishra's Factory
1x Karakas

4x Magus of the Tabernacle

4x Mox Diamond
3x Smokestack
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Ghostly Prison
3x Trinisphere
3x Oblivion Ring
4x Armageddon
4x Crucible of Worlds
3x Crystal Ball

Sideboard

3x Tormod's Crypt
4x Defense Grid
4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Suppression Field

Hi Everyone! I've been following this thread for a while and decided to register and post my list up. This is my only deck as of right now in the format. Trying to make it as competitive as I can from a beginning list before some of the bigger Legacy tournaments hit my area and I can find out what my meta is like.

I recently came back to playing MTG with only my old 'Angel Stax' decklist from a while ago and decided to update to the current list I have here. I am trying the build with crystal Ball which was sort of hard on deciding which 4-of's to drop to 3 in order to implement it. Ended up dropping 1 3sphere, 1 stax, and 1 prison. Maybe adding 3sphere and prison as a 1 of in the SB in case I need them? I only have 6 win condition cards but most people seem to scoop when they are securely locked. I am liking the manabase so far because there are no WW's in anything like there are when playtesting with Elspeth(one less thing to worry about with opening hands).

My main source of testing has been against combo and it's all gone well enough but I just can't say how confident I can feel in the deck with such limited testing yet. Maybe if anyone can shed some light if they get to run weekly events with a similar build?

[Curby]

General question: how often do you get a hard lock* with Stax? I've played against everything from aggro to control (no combo, but supposedly our 3Spheres and Chalices make that a cakewalk), and it's always a race. I generally drop the lock pieces I have, and race to the finish with 2-power ground beaters or an Angel if I'm lucky. Of course I'd love to get a hard lock because "that's how it's supposed to work", but a deck with little draw/sift/search doesn't guarantee such performance too often.

Maybe I'm not mulling aggressively enough, or maybe all that talk about "hard locks" is wishful thinking and selective memory.

The answer to this question determines the way we populate the flexible slots in the deck. If we regularly enter a state of inevitability, then the Magi and Factories that we already run will be enough to get us there. If we're fighting tooth and nail to get every game, we may need more powerful cards that can swing battles.

* Just to be clear, my definition of hard lock consists of the following:

1) Crucible of Worlds (or permanent generator, e.g. Elspeth)
2) Smokestack at 1 (or 2, as long as it's sustainable)
3a) Chalice at 1 (and/or 0 and/or 2 depending on opponent) OR
3b) Trinisphere
4) Opponent with clear board

[Parax]

I get the hard lock pretty often to be honest, but then again i'm not one of the people who have moved on to playing 3 of each of the lock pieces, so i tend to get the lock and then win, vs grinding it out. It might also be because they refuse to scoop, so i keep advancing my board position. I know a lot of people hope to draw out the game, especially if they already won game 1, because a 1-0-1 is still a win for the match.

[Seems Good]

x2 to what Prax said. More often than not with wins I get a soft lock that basically spells a hard lock, but the opponent wants to grind it out. For example, against aggro with a developed board, I might have...Chalice at 1, and a Magus out. If I play geddon and then say go, his board gets nuked, and I have a dude out for the win. Not necessarily a hard-lock, but an inevitable win that you will need 10 turns to grind out.

[Curby]

That's a bit of a slippery slope, because there are various combinations of lock pieces and board states, all with different levels of board control. The difference between that and a hard lock is the latter has no "out" within the realm of Magic. As long as they may have some realistic solution, there's at least some reason for them to keep slogging, especially if you're under 5 life from early attacks and Ancient Tomb. In SG's hypothetical, it's still up to you to finish out the game before they can recover. That's what I meant when I said "it's always a race" unless you actually have the hard lock.

[BleiDD]

Nevermore (http://magiccards.info/query?q=nevermore&v=card&s=cname)

It could be played naming whatever answers your opponent has to our lock or other integral pieces to decks.

My current list has been trying to dodge running anything with double white to improve consistency, but I think Nevermore could give us one other annoying threat for the opponent to deal with.

My Build right now is the Crystal Ball version, so that would be the only thing I could really cut to run it main deck, but it could be a nice sideboard option as well. The card doesn't fit into the main theme of the deck but it's definitely powerful and does wonders if you have multiples running.

Anyone else think this card deserves a chance?

[joemauer]

Does Nevermore help against Stax weak spots?

Nevermore is more of a anti combo card. Stax strongest matchup is probably most combo decks. But if you want more anti combo cards for your sideboard try leyline of sanctity, is good versus discard too.

Does that help answer your question any BleiDD.

[BleiDD]

Yeah that's a good point. It pretty much makes our already solid matchup against combo even better so it might just be considered overkill.

Mainly looking to start some discussion on it since it's a solid card we could potentially utilize.

[GoldenCid]

My Build right now is the Crystal Ball version, so that would be the only thing I could really cut to run it main deck, but it could be a nice sideboard option as well

Crystal Ball, i tried it some time ago and resulted ok but strongly mana intensive. What is your experiencie.
Another option to manipulate the library is running a couple of copies of Academy Rector. You can tutor an enchantment by sacrifing it with Tnacle, magus or even smokestack. Thoughts?

[Curby]

Too bad it can't fetch artifacts, since we play so many more artifacts than enchantments. I'd actually consider putting Rectors in Oblivion Ring/Ghostly Prison slots, since they can "become" those cards.

[Steveman]

In my Dutch Stax list, I've been running Idylic Tutor. It's pretty amazing since Stax's greatest weakness is consistency. Idylilic Tutor searches for any silver bullet I need, Humility / Moat against creatures and Oblivion Ring for those pesky Jaces.

[Seems Good]

I'm thinking about trying Enlightened Tutor out for consistency since Geddon Stax is predominantly artifact based. Anyone have luck here?

Also, speaking of Jaces, I'm going to try maindecking two Elspeth, Knight-Errant since I've heard a lot of good thing about her.

[joemauer]

I'm thinking about trying Enlightened Tutor out for consistency since Geddon Stax is predominantly artifact based. Anyone have luck here?



E. Tutor does not play well with chalice at one. It is also card disadvantage. Might be nice in SB for corner cases.

[paeng4983]

E. Tutor does not play well with chalice at one. It is also card disadvantage. Might be nice in SB for corner cases.

Neah.I wont even considered grandma in my SB because it really doesnt sync with trinisphere and COTV. try something better instead of hasting for an answer.

Anyway, just to share, what i have in my MD were the following:
Aside from the core, i have 3 humilities MD and 2 elspeth.
Im not using BSA nor any angels in my list, my goal is to lock whatever deck i may cross. Whether it be a combo or an aggro or control. Here's my list:

4 city traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 wasteland
4 mishra's factory
3 flagstone of trokair
1 horizon canopy
5 plains
1 tabernacle pendrel vale

4 trinisphere
4 COTY
3 smokestack
4 COW
4 mox diamond

4 ghostly prison
3 humility
1 oblivion ring

1 WOG
4 armageddon

2 elspeth v.1

SB:
4 tormod's crypt
4 suppression field
1 oblivion ring
1 Day of judgement
1 WOG
4 leyline of sanctity

^_^

[thatoneguy]

How crucial is wasteland to this decks strategy?

[Seems Good]

How crucial is wasteland to this decks strategy?

Wastelock wins games

[Darth Nihilus]

How crucial is wasteland to this decks strategy?

if u dont got wastelands dont play staxx, this sums it up pretty much

[thatoneguy]

I am glad to know this. Wasteland is awesome............

[GoldenCid]

I like Idyllic tutor, i'll try it!!

@Paeng: i can`t consider a control stax without Magus of the Tabernacle. Why don`t you include it?

[paeng4983]

I like Idyllic tutor, i'll try it!!

@Paeng: i can`t consider a control stax without Magus of the Tabernacle. Why don`t you include it?

Im using humility. There were times that, all they have to do is to pay one per creature and swing for lethal damage/s for the win. So I decided to tap humility for magus tabernacle. And currently, base from my play testing, the combination of geddon, humility, and ghostly (not to mention trinisphere and COW) are so good.

Another thing is that humility alone can buy u some time (that's working on the premise that you're still waiting for geddon or ghostly to come). Hmmm.... Humility also stop whatever ability a creature has, whether it be mana accel, comes into play triggers, activated abilities, etc.

^_^

[Curby]

I've been thinking about using Humility and Elspeth instead of Magus and Angels. There's a LOT of white mana symbols down that path, though.

[GoldenCid]

Yes but if you combine the magus effect with a prison one or even armageddon opponent creatures are out.

[Curby]

I don't quite understand the terms you're using, nor the argument itself. I guess you mean that Humility with Prison or Tabernacle land with Geddon will slow/kill nearly any creature-based force. Fair enough, but a Tabernacle creature with Geddon would do the same thing, and without the double white costs I initially mentioned.

If I misinterpreted you, please explain your point further. Thanks.

[Seems Good]

Looks like he meant if you combine a Magus effect with Prison or Geddon it deals with creatures very well. True statement. Judging by his earlier post he was curious why the list posted by paeng above didn't utilize Magus.

I personally think that this deck needs to play 4 Magus + 4 Geddon. Humility is awesome, but I feel like it fits best in Dutch Stax (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12515-Deck-Dutch-Stax&highlight=dutch+stax) along with Moat.

[GoldenCid]

Looks like he meant if you combine a Magus effect with Prison or Geddon it deals with creatures very well. True statement. Judging by his earlier post he was curious why the list posted by paeng above didn't utilize Magus.
.

Perfectly explained, sorry for my spelling it was due to i was wrinting throught my cell phone. That's right, if you land a magus + prison effect creatures can't simply swing for lethal. This is important when you face an horde of guys. If you face a Phyrexian dreadnought geddon or moat is needed.

[Curby]

Thanks for clearing that up, folks. Yeah, I think I'll continue to use Magus+Geddon for now. Dutch Stax likes a lot of white mana symbols. I'm still considering using Elspeth over Angels though. Not sure, since the lifegain is very nice.

[Seems Good]

I used 2 BSA for a long time and honestly, it was a win-more 90% of the time. The life gain is great but if you can resolve a BSA and it sticks around to swing, chances are you're in control of the game.

Speth on the other hand I haven't tried yet, but from what I hear she is awesome. I am psyched to try her as a 2-of in the slot of BSA but to be honest i'm too busy tinkering with Junk and UR Painterstone right now and not giving Stax enough attention :laugh:

[Curby]

This is why I asked how often folks get a sufficient lock to enter inevitability mode. There definitely seem to be times when I'm fighting to stay alive, and a huge life linking flier would be a huge boon. E.g. against black, chalice for one and two will shut down their removal, but they might be building up an army regardless. Landing an angel at that point is reasonably safe, but not win-more. Anyway, I might try getting some EKEs (doesn't sound as imposing as JTMS, does it) or just proxy to test.

[Moduloc]

for those who run crystal ball what do you kids think of running Tezzeret's Gambit? It can help by adding counters to smokestack, walkers and chalice if needed. Thoughts?

[paeng4983]

Hello everyone, I just came from our legacy tournament here in Manila, Philippines were I eneded with a 2-1-3 win-loss-draw mark.
And here's the list that i run:

4 city traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 wasteland
4 mishra's factory
3 flagstone of trokair
1 horizon canopy
5 plains
1 tabernacle pendrel vale

4 trinisphere
4 COTY
3 smokestack
4 COW
4 mox diamond

4 ghostly prison
3 humility
1 oblivion ring

1 WOG
4 armageddon

2 elspeth v.1

SB:
4 tormod's crypt
4 suppression field
1 oblivion ring
1 Day of judgement
1 WOG
4 leyline of sanctity

And so far, here's what i can recall.
RD1 UW blade
I won game one via mishra with the help of geddon, and 3 ghostly prison. But unfortunately I lost our G2 so sfm with jitte on her. It was a draw

RD2 uw_lab maniac combo
G3, time expired as i was 3 turns short from winning.

RD3 gw mavs
Lost miserably to pridemage and other loves.

RD4 gw mavs
Draw again, time expired. I was like a punch away from winning.

RD5 bw control
G1 geddon and trinisphere kept his spells at bay. mishra all the way for the win.
G2 imprison his deck via cotv set at one and two and three.

RD6 reanimator
was able to lock him down with my artifacts.

[paeng4983]

Hello there again.
It seems that I am the only one who is using this deck as of the moment.
:)
Anyway, I participated at yesterday's small legacy tournament where we had it 4rds.
And here's what I can still remember:

RD1 Junk
Both games one and two, I locked him out with cOTV set at one and two (game one) and geddon trinisphere with COW and smokestack (game two).

RD2 elfball-intuition-venge
Both games, vengevines out muscled me. Thus i lose

RD3 junk
G1, BSA was much faster than phyrexian crusader. G2, Leyline of sanctity gave me enough distance to set up my lock pieces. :)

RD4 belcher
COTV set at ZERO on both my won games gave me the victory needed.

At the end of the day, i managed to bagged 2nd place with a 3-1 win-loss-draw mark.
Here's the list that i used:

4 city traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 wasteland
4 mishra's factory
3 flagstone of trokair
1 horizon canopy
6 plains

4 trinisphere
4 COTV
3 smokestack
3 COW
4 mox diamond

4 ghostly prison
3 Baneslayer angel
2 Wrath of God
4 armageddon
3 suppresion field

SB:
4 tormod's crypt
3 timely reinforcement
3 oblivion ring
1 Day of judgement
4 leyline of sanctity

[paeng4983]

Uhhmmm...
Me again. ^_^

I participated in a 70 plus players at yesterday's legacy tournament here in Manila.
The meta was like well represented by decks of its kind. from A to Z (ANT to ZOO). So preparing your 15 cards SB is not that enough. Anyway, again, I used my white stax for the very last time and here's my list,

4 city traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 wasteland
4 mishra's factory
3 flagstone of trokair
1 horizon canopy
5 plains
1 tabernacle pendrel vale

4 trinisphere
4 COTY
3 smokestack
4 COW
4 mox diamond

4 ghostly prison
3 humility
1 oblivion ring

1 WOG
4 armageddon

2 elspeth v.1

SB
4 tormod's crypt
3 timely reinforcement
3 oblivion ring
1 Day of judgement
4 leyline of sanctity


And here's what I can still remember:
RD1 UW snapcaster-sfm control
G1: I won game one via trinisphere and armageddon. he was not able to drew a land. He concede and we went to game two.
G2: I got stuck with 3 lands.
G3: I drew too many lands, no spells. I lose

RD2 mono B
I won via artifact lock (COTV at one, then later trinisphere and geddon) for both games one and two.

RD3 MUD aggro
G3: forgemaster (I think that was) fetching BSC - ftw.

RD4 bw_junk
G1: two vampire 2/3 gave him the win.
G2: his life at 40 mine down to two. On his table he had 2 2/3 vampire again, together with 7 lands and a bob while mine was - trinisphere and a ghostly. I prayed for an armageddon or WOG or DOJ. Good lourd, it gave me geddon. :) from there he never recovered. i won via 4/4 token soldier flying
G3: same situation, though I was at 5 life. geddon, followed by two prisons, he tapped out.

RD5 slivers
Both games one and two, trinisphere and geddon with prison to keep his meathookers at bay, sealed the win i needed.

RD6 UW snapcaster-sfm control
he had mana leak, spell pierce, fow, counterspell. he counters all spells i play. then sfm into baterskull. ew! hahaha x_X

RD7 NO bant
I just gave him the win. I did not play anymore. :)

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

Well....
1. Elspeth, Knight Errant is no good with Ghostly Prison - She can still be attacked through Prison... This is why Moat and Elspeth go together, and Magus and Armageddon go together (even though Armageddon is still good with everything).

2. Kor haven will stop that Pesky Blightsteel Colossus...

3. Contimplating Tezzeret's Gambit.... does not seem bad at all. Ive always looked for a card to draw Cards in Stax (even trying Oblation). Gambit seems really good, costs 2 life, can be cast easily Turn 2, and Diamond can save you the 2 life. It may also allow you to run 3 Trinispheres...

4. As talked about Defense Grid in previous posts. May help against stoneblade?

[Curby]

Yeah, if you're gonna go Dutch, go all out. This means Humility + Moat + Elspeth. Elspeth can defend herself a little bit against 1/1s, but it's still suboptimal without Moat. Unfortunately, I don't like that route because of all the cards that need WW.

How was Timely Reinforcements? I just got some to put in my sideboard, but I'm thinking I'd probably rather have other stuff. And why is this the last time you'll run Stax?

[paeng4983]

Yeah, if you're gonna go Dutch, go all out. This means Humility + Moat + Elspeth. Elspeth can defend herself a little bit against 1/1s, but it's still suboptimal without Moat. Unfortunately, I don't like that route because of all the cards that need WW.

How was Timely Reinforcements? I just got some to put in my sideboard, but I'm thinking I'd probably rather have other stuff. And why is this the last time you'll run Stax?

About the timely, if I remember it correctly, I rarely drew/ used it. But, situationally, there were times that it saved me. It can produce 3 blockers and let you gain 4 life (well im assuming that ancient tomb is in the picture when you cast this spell most of the time). Having a distance of another 4life pts is a good barrier from losing. My build usually take a lot of punishments before i could set-up my stuffs.

RE: the last time
well, errrr..., I think im going to take that statement back, :-)
I sold my mox diamonds and city traitors after the tournament. So I thought that's the last time I'll be playing with my stax.
Then a couple of weeks after, I just could not resist the temptation, someone here is looking for a set of FOW. so i traded my set of FOW to a set of mox diamond plus cash, then spent the cash to buy myself a set of city traitors. :-)

I'm still inlove with stax. :-)
my next project after christmas - moat.
:-)

[kusumoto]

A version of Stax just got 13th at SCG St Louis. Interesting list...

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42537

[Koby]

This is the version that was Deck-tech'd with Caleb Dunward. Really interesting list with Hero of Bladehold and Lightning Greaves.

[Anarky87]

Caleb said in the interview that he would cut the Armageddons down to 3 and add in another Lodestone Golem. Although it appears Zack Strait went for the 1-of Elspeth in that slot.

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_mono_white_stax_with.html

Caleb's Deck tech. Seems like a very interesting build.

[CalebD]

http://www.channelfireball.com/home/running-the-legacy-gauntlet-uwr-stoneforge-vs-mono-white-stax/

Did a set of vids with adam barnello.

[saspook]

http://www.channelfireball.com/home/running-the-legacy-gauntlet-uwr-stoneforge-vs-mono-white-stax/

Did a set of vids with adam barnello.

do you have a current list that is different than the one in the deck tech? (I dislike that the article only has his decklist and not yours)

[1337erhosen]

Interesting video series by Caleb D. You're definitely one of my favorite Legacy deck designers, and it's great to see you and Adam put together a video series for the format that gets little video coverage. I'm looking forward to future videos.
As a Stax player I would have liked to see your side of the matches, but Adam's commentary was still good.

I'm going to say all this with the knowledge that your deck is not built like a standard Stax list and your game-plan is more along the lines of Stompy than traditional Armageddon-Smokestacks, but you posted your video in this forum, so I'm going to assume you are playing it as a control deck rather than an aggro list.

Your list from the Deck Tech is very interesting, but I'm still not sold on Stoneforge Mystic/Batterskull/Hero of Bladehold. After reading your Deck Tech, I see your argument for playing creatures is that sometimes your opponent can just "Draw out" of your lock, but I just haven't this experience very often.
I understand the thought behind playing Batterskull, as the deck has always had problems managing its life total, but it seems as though lock pieces would just be better in the 7 slots that the Batterskull package takes up. It seems like the Stoneforge package might be better against a UW Stoneforge list, but against a creature deck I'd probably rather have Magus of the Tabernacle than Stoneforge Mystic in that slot.
Hero of Bladehold, on the other hand, doesn't really fit with the rest of the Stax game-plan. Sure it wins you the game, but so does a sustained Smokestack at 1, and Smokestack has much better synergy with the rest of the deck, including Trinisphere, Crucible, and most importantly Ghostly Prison. Hero doesn't beat big Tarmogoyfs, and you'd rather have things that get rid of Tarmogoyfs instead of running into them.

If you are interested in moving the deck toward the Stompy game-plan Lodestone Golem seems awesome. He wears equipment and is both a lock-piece and a beater, and I could see you running more of him. If you're on the beatdown plan, it's probably a much better idea to board the Ghostly Prisons, because they don't remove blockers. They might be okay if you ran fliers like Exalted Angel and tried to race, but they seem weak with the current set-up. I'm not sure how good Lightning Grieves is in this list. It does make the Batterskull life gain one turn faster and gives shroud, but it seems like it could be a blank when you need another threat in a deck with no real card draw.

[1337erhosen]

for those who run crystal ball what do you kids think of running Tezzeret's Gambit? It can help by adding counters to smokestack, walkers and chalice if needed. Thoughts?
I like the idea of Gambit a lot more than I like Crystal Ball. In Stax you need to be drawing both land and lock pieces, not either or, and Gambit seems like a great way to do it. I tried a few games with it and speeding up Smokestack was awesome. The downside is that the life loss hurts a lot. Obviously you can play it with Mox Diamond to avoid this, but most of the time I needed it to cost 3. More testing is necessary, but my initial thoughts are positive.

[killergates]

I am a beginner for this deck, and currently testing a W/G stax, to my understanding (please add any comments), mono-stax is untable and depends on luck, there is no draw engine and tools for searching key components

for w/g stax, Knight of the Reliquary can be a tool box for fetching lands in the lib, also can put choke and grip in the sb, but still no draw engine

here are my concerns:

1. is that possible to mix U in the deck? but this seems to break the mana base of it.. and i came across a u-stax deck on tc-deck, but found no Armageddon in the main deck, how does the deck finish the game? is that possible to add 'Cryptic Command '/'Sunder'/' Parallax Tide' in the main?

2. any one tried W/G/U stax? is that do-able?

3. in some cases, my own trinisphere just blocked Mox diamond....

[feline]

Just completed this deck, fairly traditional version, but one thing I'm already interested in looking at is timely reinforcements in place of oblivion ring in some matchups, at a minimum im going to sideboard them, but i might put the o-ring's sideboard, the 6 life and 3 chump blockers from timely is really nice.

[kusumoto]

I am a beginner for this deck, and currently testing a W/G stax, to my understanding (please add any comments), mono-stax is untable and depends on luck, there is no draw engine and tools for searching key components

for w/g stax, Knight of the Reliquary can be a tool box for fetching lands in the lib, also can put choke and grip in the sb, but still no draw engine

here are my concerns:

1. is that possible to mix U in the deck? but this seems to break the mana base of it.. and i came across a u-stax deck on tc-deck, but found no Armageddon in the main deck, how does the deck finish the game? is that possible to add 'Cryptic Command '/'Sunder'/' Parallax Tide' in the main?

2. any one tried W/G/U stax? is that do-able?

3. in some cases, my own trinisphere just blocked Mox diamond....

Green splashes do give a draw engine actually. Horizon Canopy plus Crucible of Worlds and to some extent even Sylvan Library. I think that a major rethinking of the deck, most likely using another color, is needed to make it truly competitive.

I've been testing a version to try and take full advantage of the green splash.
Here's what I am working with.


4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Armageddon
2 Oblivion Ring

2 Sylvan Library
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Terravore

4 Mox Diamond
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Savannah
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Plains
4 Wasteland
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors



Sideboard



4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Choke
1 Ground Seal
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Karakas




EE has been an absolute house. Just from looking at the list, Prison may seem pretty weak, but I think it's getting the job done. You want to stick it turn one to three to slow them down so that you get time to stop the board. This happens by playing more of them or resolving geddon/EE.

Obviously it's a little bit slower, but with Canopy/Crucible and Library it really eases into the late game comfortably.

Thoughts?

[Zand]

I've been testing something very similar but starting from a base a little bit closer to the Caleb Durward build I saw awhile back. I use less Crucibles (main decking 2-3 depending on my mood...) but I also run waaaaaay less Horizon Canopy's. Do you find you miss the fourth Armageddon? Also, I run a single Tabernacle to be fetched by Knight, I've found it to be pretty good so far. Why not run the Karakas in the main deck?

I've been considering running some number of Life from the Loam's instead of Crucibles but I'm not sure how many/if I'd want to.

[Greenpoe]

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Armageddon
2 Oblivion Ring

2 Sylvan Library
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Terravore

4 Mox Diamond
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Savannah
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Plains
4 Wasteland
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors



Sideboard



4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Choke
1 Ground Seal
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Karakas



You should probably run at least 1 Maze of Ith and ideally, a couple Tabernacles. You've cut some of the mana denial which is where Staxx can really shine. Since Chalice is so good right now because of the rise of Delver, Lightning Bolt and Snapcaster making people run more 1-drops, Chalice is really good right now. Maybe a traditional Staxx build but with trying to use more lock piece/win cons like some combination of Lodestone Golem, Thalia, Windborn Muse and Magus of the Tabernacle could be decent.

[feline]

I really like toying with the idea of "upgrading" this deck and getting the moat/humiliaty package, and of course the tabernacle at pendrell vale would make it really flashy! and is really nice when you have a crucible of worlds out. The problem is this deck doesn't perform enough for me to go out and invest in those cards just yet, but it's in the back of my mind.

[(nameless one)]

I really like toying with the idea of "upgrading" this deck and getting the moat/humiliaty package, and of course the tabernacle at pendrell vale would make it really flashy! and is really nice when you have a crucible of worlds out. The problem is this deck doesn't perform enough for me to go out and invest in those cards just yet, but it's in the back of my mind.

Wouldn't the Moat/Humility/Tabernacle package belong in Dutch Stax instead?

The way I understand this deck, it's a Stompy deck that runs Armageddon in junction with Ghost Prison (and Supression Field) and Magus of the Tabernacle to prevent the opponent from developing mana.

Moat/Humility/Tabernacle only stops attacking strategies.

[feline]

Yea that's where I got the idea from I believe, that is I suppose, the TOTAL prison version, but that requires like another 2000 dollars for a playset of moat & tabernacle, even 1k if i get 1 moat and some enlightened tutor's lol, though with crop rotation, though that's green, i could do just 1 tabernacle, in either case.

[xfxf]

What is Moat going to solve that Humility can't solve against the current decks?

[feline]

I think it's the whole combo of the 2 that completely nullify creature strategies to all hell! its like you become "invincible against creatures" until they disenchant something.

[frogger42]

Just browsed real quick, and some neat ideas in running KotR. Just my 2 cents, I feel that if you're running a lot of 3x and 2x, in a deck that doesn't run serious draw or filtering (Brainstorm, Ponder), isn't it more powerful to simply have your deck more consistent and predictable, rather than hope on the 'silver bullet' that wins a certain MU?

I'd been running U/B Planeswalker 'Stax' for a while, and just wanted to throw up a quick decklist off the top of my head:

Chrome Mox 4
Mox Diamond 4
Tomb 4
City 4
Flagstones 4
Plains 6 (prob a couple duals in there for the SB - GW, UW)
Darksteel Citadel 2

Suppression Field 4
Chalice 4
Trinisphere 3
Obv Ring 1
Gh Prison 4
Geddon 4

Magus 4
Exalt Angel 4
Academy Rector 4

Some things I'd noticed playing PW'er Stax - Chrome Mox is really fantastic. Pretty much guarantees you'll get off a T1 Chalice in every hand you have it, as long as you haven't mulled too hard. I also used to run 3-sphere, and while I had it in, it made T1 3sphere absolutely possible. I've landed that thing a few times right away, and was just blown away by the speed.
Smokestack - never liked the grinder. It takes a whole turn for it to get a counter, then you make your opponent sac a land or something. Meh. If we were running PW'ers and Tezz Gambit, I'd consider it.
Suppression Field- I wanted another 2cmc spell to T1 against my opponent. I think it's super-viable in the field, as it shuts off Wasteland + Manlands (including your own, why I don't have them), Fetches/ KotRs, PW'ers, and pretty sure even LEDs. I heard recently it wasn't a mana source, and you respond and even Stifle the 3 mana.
Crucible - with Sup Field, there are hardly any lands I'd really want to get back. Painful cut, but I think it doesn't make it in this decklist.
Exalt > Baneslayer - I'm guessing that the extra mana is pretty restrictive when you want to Geddon, and don't have Crucible to work for you. Exalted Ang works when you can get up to 4 mana, which I don't think will be a problem.

I was funking around with a PW'er + Eureka kind of W Stax, but I think I like the simplicity and speed of this kind. I think I might want a 5th or 6th Geddon, but I'm not gonna shell out $200 for a $2 reprint. Feel free to try the deck out, and lmk what you think.

[kusumoto]

Just browsed real quick, and some neat ideas in running KotR. Just my 2 cents, I feel that if you're running a lot of 3x and 2x, in a deck that doesn't run serious draw or filtering (Brainstorm, Ponder), isn't it more powerful to simply have your deck more consistent and predictable, rather than hope on the 'silver bullet' that wins a certain MU?

I'd been running U/B Planeswalker 'Stax' for a while, and just wanted to throw up a quick decklist off the top of my head:

Chrome Mox 4
Mox Diamond 4
Tomb 4
City 4
Flagstones 4
Plains 6 (prob a couple duals in there for the SB - GW, UW)
Darksteel Citadel 2

Suppression Field 4
Chalice 4
Trinisphere 3
Obv Ring 1
Gh Prison 4
Geddon 4

Magus 4
Exalt Angel 4
Academy Rector 4

Some things I'd noticed playing PW'er Stax - Chrome Mox is really fantastic. Pretty much guarantees you'll get off a T1 Chalice in every hand you have it, as long as you haven't mulled too hard. I also used to run 3-sphere, and while I had it in, it made T1 3sphere absolutely possible. I've landed that thing a few times right away, and was just blown away by the speed.
Smokestack - never liked the grinder. It takes a whole turn for it to get a counter, then you make your opponent sac a land or something. Meh. If we were running PW'ers and Tezz Gambit, I'd consider it.
Suppression Field- I wanted another 2cmc spell to T1 against my opponent. I think it's super-viable in the field, as it shuts off Wasteland + Manlands (including your own, why I don't have them), Fetches/ KotRs, PW'ers, and pretty sure even LEDs. I heard recently it wasn't a mana source, and you respond and even Stifle the 3 mana.
Crucible - with Sup Field, there are hardly any lands I'd really want to get back. Painful cut, but I think it doesn't make it in this decklist.
Exalt > Baneslayer - I'm guessing that the extra mana is pretty restrictive when you want to Geddon, and don't have Crucible to work for you. Exalted Ang works when you can get up to 4 mana, which I don't think will be a problem.

I was funking around with a PW'er + Eureka kind of W Stax, but I think I like the simplicity and speed of this kind. I think I might want a 5th or 6th Geddon, but I'm not gonna shell out $200 for a $2 reprint. Feel free to try the deck out, and lmk what you think.

LED is a mana source, it just happens to be restricted to being activated any time you could play an instant. For example, you couldn't activate it with a Trickbind on the stack. That's the last explanation I got from a judge anyway.

What's the point of Academy Rector in there?
Supression Field is so crappy. Think of the things that is taking from you in manlands, wasteland, and Elspeth. She is best with Smokestack lists though.

I would think those citadels aren't worth the rare cute interaction with Geddon since they don't make 2 or W.

[frogger42]

LED is a mana source, it just happens to be restricted to being activated any time you could play an instant. For example, you couldn't activate it with a Trickbind on the stack. That's the last explanation I got from a judge anyway.


I would think those citadels aren't etc.

I'll have to dbl check on that. LED's changed back and forth a few times, worth checking out.

As for the "I would think" comment... those comments don't exist. This is a radical rebuilding of the deck, "thinking" is far, far less than picking up the deck and playing it. If you've had it in your hand a few times and realize 'hey, this card's not that great,' then I'll listen. I don't see any value in speculating on a decklist no one's playtested yet.
Same w/Supp Field et al.

Crucible + Wasteland is pretty tight. I've played it, though, and in a meta with a ton of Tempo MUs, early Crucible is mostly there to keep my land drops going. They generally don't care if I Waste them out as long as they stick a Goyf or some other beater. You can't afford to accumulate card advantage @ 1 land drop/turn against tempo, Waste is a support lock piece after you've honked down another prison piece or two. With slower decks, that combo comes in handy. My opinion there on the value of Cruc-lock in this meta.
At least it smashes Affinity, tho.

[kusumoto]

I'll have to dbl check on that. LED's changed back and forth a few times, worth checking out.

As for the "I would think" comment... those comments don't exist. This is a radical rebuilding of the deck, "thinking" is far, far less than picking up the deck and playing it. If you've had it in your hand a few times and realize 'hey, this card's not that great,' then I'll listen. I don't see any value in speculating on a decklist no one's playtested yet.
Same w/Supp Field et al.

Crucible + Wasteland is pretty tight. I've played it, though, and in a meta with a ton of Tempo MUs, early Crucible is mostly there to keep my land drops going. They generally don't care if I Waste them out as long as they stick a Goyf or some other beater. You can't afford to accumulate card advantage @ 1 land drop/turn against tempo, Waste is a support lock piece after you've honked down another prison piece or two. With slower decks, that combo comes in handy. My opinion there on the value of Cruc-lock in this meta.
At least it smashes Affinity, tho.

I don't need to put bad cards in a deck to know that they are bad.

Your list has no hard lock. Your only hope to ever get close to that is with chalice and that is obviously almost never going to do it on it's own.

The power of geddon stax over something like dragon stompy is the ability to shut off an opponent completely after a bomb/lockpiece. You wont be doing that without Crucible and/or Smokestack.

Crucible of Worlds is one of the most powerful cards in the deck. It's not just for Wasteland. It also provides you with resource advantage.

Crucible is synergistic with...

Wasteland
Flagstones of Trokair
Armageddon
Mishra's Factory
Mox Diamond
Smokestack


The card isn't just for wastelocking opponents. It gives the incremental advantage that makes this deck.

It's also absolutely ridiculous to say that tempo decks don't care if you waste them. If you have a crucible + waste + prison their goyfs don't mean a whole hell of a lot. Decks like RUG are very light on lands and none of them are basics. If you have played against RUG pilots that were letting you resolve Crucibles, you have played against bad RUG pilots or they just didn't have counters available. Crucible wins pretty hard against them.

Suppression field is just never as good as people think it is. You will be disappointed several times as you continue playing it. It seems great sometimes, but it's too bad too often.

[ra_2_soldier]

I have had alot of experience in the past with this deck and crucible of worlds is absolutely critical in this deck and i would not play any less than 4. I feel that without it the deck loses its only source of "card advantage". Wasteland is also a criticle piece to the deck that works great with all of your lock pieces, (prison, magus, trinisphere etc.) I have had the most success with the W/g version of the deck splashing green for choke and kotr. As far as suppression field is concerned i feel the card is fantastic and used to have 3 in my sb for certain matchups but in the current meta it is def a card I would maindeck. Making fetchlands cost mana to crack is huge against decks like rug delver and in conjunction with wasteland (even tho it costs mana now) is such a boss against them. A card that seems mediocre at times is smokestack, that being said I would never play the deck without atleast 1. I would run 3 and side 2 out on matchups where smokestax is a bit too slow (delver, showandtell) but would never side out all just because the deck can be a bit slow at times and if u get a lock with chalice smokestax can be a bomb late game. I have not played this deck in a tourney recently but if I were to play the deck I would probably play something like this....

4 crucible of worlds
4 chalice of the void
4 mox diamond
4 ghostly prison
3 magus of the tabernacle
3 trinisphere
1 smokestax
3 suppression field
4 armageddon
2 batterskull
1 knight of the reliquary
1 crystal ball (dont knock this card before you play with it, its boss)
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
4 wasteland
1 savannah
2 mishra's factory
1 buried ruin
3 flagstones
4 plains
1 tabernacle of pendrell vale
1 horizon canopy
1 life gain land (i cant remember the name of it but comes into play tapped u gain life it taps for what)
1 karakas

sideboard
3 choke
2 smokestax
1 karmic justice
1 trinisphere
2 knight of the reliquary
1 oblivion ring
1 bajuka bog
2 aura of silence
2 tormods crypt

[frogger42]

Your list has no hard lock.

Meh. I've seen decks that aim for the 'Hard Lock.' As a strategy, it's actually super-tough to do that in Legacy because you need 2-3 specific cards. All the other cards that would've done it on their own aren't available in the format.
I get that a lot of Prison players think the hard lock is the way to go. That's fine, it's just tough to do. Philosophically, I think the better way to go is a softer lock, with some sort of non-parity in the cards you play. Ghostly Prison - soft lock, slows down your oppn. Magus - same thing, keeps the board from cluttering and blocks a dude. Strategically, you feel safer when you have a hard lock - Stack + 3sphere - but practically speaking, it's so rare to get all those pieces on field, with Daze + FoW and Pridemages in 2 top decks, I think trying to slow down Tempo and other fast decks is more practical and still perfectly viable as a gameplan. I don't care if a Goyf hits me through Prison, not if I can block with a Magus or outrace with an Angel. Even if I don't have those creatures, it still slows the game enough where I have a few more turns to TD something else useful.

Most tempo players don't FoW the Crucible. Why bother? You outrace them so hard, control decks often grip 4 or so cards when they die. Fast decks don't care about card advantage in these MUs, they count victories through tempo advantage. FoW will more likely hit the Prison in this build, if they know I've got Geddons, or whatever else will keep their creatures from beating. For Crucible to stop beats, you need a Factory and your opponent less than 2 Goyfs. Even bringing back Factory every turn for 1 Goyf is really miserable, as you can't develop your manabase any further.

I think strategically, speed is very important in control decks. You need to pack it, or make your opponent lose theirs. I think no one's mentioned how Exalted Angel can swing by T2 with the extra moxen, which is a huge advantage in a deck where your only gameplan is to lock them out around T3-4 and draw a finisher. That's some serious flexibility in your gameplan, and cannot be discounted b/c that strategy 'doesn't fit the prison mentality.' Sometimes you call an audible and have to adapt your ideal gameplan.

I'll welcome all comments/critiques based on actual play of that decklist I posted up there. It's a rough sketch and I'm sure could use that bit of refining which only comes from playtesting. ra-soldier, I really like the Batterskulls in there, seems pretty boss even without SFM. I've seen Crystal Ball before, but wouldn't Sylvan Lib just about fit in there and not drain your mana - also better synergy with BS's lifegain? Either card I'm pretty sure step all over each other when you have Sup Field in play.

[kusumoto]

Meh. I've seen decks that aim for the 'Hard Lock.' As a strategy, it's actually super-tough to do that in Legacy because you need 2-3 specific cards. All the other cards that would've done it on their own aren't available in the format.
I get that a lot of Prison players think the hard lock is the way to go. That's fine, it's just tough to do. Philosophically, I think the better way to go is a softer lock, with some sort of non-parity in the cards you play. Ghostly Prison - soft lock, slows down your oppn. Magus - same thing, keeps the board from cluttering and blocks a dude. Strategically, you feel safer when you have a hard lock - Stack + 3sphere - but practically speaking, it's so rare to get all those pieces on field, with Daze + FoW and Pridemages in 2 top decks, I think trying to slow down Tempo and other fast decks is more practical and still perfectly viable as a gameplan. I don't care if a Goyf hits me through Prison, not if I can block with a Magus or outrace with an Angel. Even if I don't have those creatures, it still slows the game enough where I have a few more turns to TD something else useful.

Most tempo players don't FoW the Crucible. Why bother? You outrace them so hard, control decks often grip 4 or so cards when they die. Fast decks don't care about card advantage in these MUs, they count victories through tempo advantage. FoW will more likely hit the Prison in this build, if they know I've got Geddons, or whatever else will keep their creatures from beating. For Crucible to stop beats, you need a Factory and your opponent less than 2 Goyfs. Even bringing back Factory every turn for 1 Goyf is really miserable, as you can't develop your manabase any further.

I think strategically, speed is very important in control decks. You need to pack it, or make your opponent lose theirs. I think no one's mentioned how Exalted Angel can swing by T2 with the extra moxen, which is a huge advantage in a deck where your only gameplan is to lock them out around T3-4 and draw a finisher. That's some serious flexibility in your gameplan, and cannot be discounted b/c that strategy 'doesn't fit the prison mentality.' Sometimes you call an audible and have to adapt your ideal gameplan.

I'll welcome all comments/critiques based on actual play of that decklist I posted up there. It's a rough sketch and I'm sure could use that bit of refining which only comes from playtesting. ra-soldier, I really like the Batterskulls in there, seems pretty boss even without SFM. I've seen Crystal Ball before, but wouldn't Sylvan Lib just about fit in there and not drain your mana - also better synergy with BS's lifegain? Either card I'm pretty sure step all over each other when you have Sup Field in play.

I think you need to actually try that list you put up and get back to us when you do.

This is not planeswalker stax.

[frogger42]

I think you need to actually try that list you put up and get back to us when you do.

That's a good point. A great point. I wholeheartedly agree. It goes two ways, that street.

Unfortunately, I'm not all that interested in reporting back. I just threw it up there to bring new blood into an old deck. Whether you want to try out this build, or not, doesn't exactly keep me awake at night. I'm actually working on another deck altogether, and thought maybe some Stax player would appreciate some thinking (+playtesting) well outside the box.


This is not planeswalker stax.

Less useful. It is also not: Affinity, Dredge, TES, 40+lands, or Bear Force One.
Take the list for what it's worth. Even in my limited experience, I've never found being defensive and dismissive to be all that useful. More useful: curious skepticism. Best to y'all!

[kusumoto]

That's a good point. A great point. I wholeheartedly agree. It goes two ways, that street.

Unfortunately, I'm not all that interested in reporting back. I just threw it up there to bring new blood into an old deck. Whether you want to try out this build, or not, doesn't exactly keep me awake at night. I'm actually working on another deck altogether, and thought maybe some Stax player would appreciate some thinking (+playtesting) well outside the box.



Less useful. It is also not: Affinity, Dredge, TES, 40+lands, or Bear Force One.
Take the list for what it's worth. Even in my limited experience, I've never found being defensive and dismissive to be all that useful. More useful: curious skepticism. Best to y'all!

Allow me to explain further what you quoted from me.

It's not PW Stax and you haven't tested it. That means you shouldn't dismiss what people that play actual geddon stax say about your list just because they haven't tested it.

You're right it's not all those decks you listed either. The point is that you can't cite your experience with a different deck as reason to judge this one. They do share some similarities, but are different decks.

People in this thread do play geddon stax though, so we just might be able to judge your card choices based on the gameplan of this deck.

Don't just make up lists that you haven't tested and then tell people that they don't know anything about them until they test them. You would know even less for being inexperienced with this archetype.

There's nothing wrong with new ideas for the deck but you might notice whilst calling me dismissive that you said this...



As for the "I would think" comment... those comments don't exist. This is a radical rebuilding of the deck, "thinking" is far, far less than picking up the deck and playing it. If you've had it in your hand a few times and realize 'hey, this card's not that great,' then I'll listen. I don't see any value in speculating on a decklist no one's playtested yet.
Same w/Supp Field et al.


When people are experienced with an archetype they can in fact make judgements without playtesting every random list that every person comes up with.

[frogger42]

A couple things: Sylvan Lib is a Triggered ability - there's an random version that makes it look activated, but it's not.
LED - Oracle says it's a mana ability, so Sup Field doesn't affect it. Can't Stifle either, obv. But I'm pretty sure you can respond to the mana when they disc (for Crypt or whatnot), it's an odd card.

I honestly don't know why I'm responding to this, but it's been nagging me:



Supression Field is so crappy. Think of the things that is taking from you in manlands, wasteland, and Elspeth.=

Make a list of other things it shuts down. Go through your binder if you have to. If you feel a need to facepalm yourself repeatedly, I'll be happy to supply an extra hand.

[feline]

I priced out that U/B planeswalker stax deck that made 9th a bit ago, the one by Matt Keefer at starcity, and it is one of the most expensive deck's I've priced out in a while for type 1.5

Maindeck:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Chrome Mox
3 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 The Abyss
3 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Gargoyle Castle
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Tolaria West
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
Sideboard:
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Scourglass
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Zuran Orb
1 Gigapede
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Decree of Pain
1 Maze of Ith
1 Riftstone Portal

The total from starcitygames was 2,417.50$
While the Tcgplayer Low -to- High total was between 2,145.74$ -to- 3,359.43$

This however, is the only variant of stax to make a top 16 showing at the big open series events that I have seen in a while, my current version is white/geddon/prison stax, and even the last showing of that deck was more of an angel stompy version -vs- the prison verson. I am going to have to update my list soon if it keeps going like this! >^,^<

[kusumoto]

A couple things: Sylvan Lib is a Triggered ability - there's an random version that makes it look activated, but it's not.
LED - Oracle says it's a mana ability, so Sup Field doesn't affect it. Can't Stifle either, obv. But I'm pretty sure you can respond to the mana when they disc (for Crypt or whatnot), it's an odd card.

I honestly don't know why I'm responding to this, but it's been nagging me:



Make a list of other things it shuts down. Go through your binder if you have to. If you feel a need to facepalm yourself repeatedly, I'll be happy to supply an extra hand.

That's cool feel free to post all of your winning tournament reports with suppression field here then.

[frogger42]

I priced out that U/B planeswalker stax deck that made 9th a bit ago...

This however, is the only variant of stax to make a top 16 showing at the big open series events that I have seen in a while, my current version is white/geddon/prison stax, and even the last showing of that deck was more of an angel stompy version -vs- the prison verson. I am going to have to update my list soon if it keeps going like this! >^,^<

There was another list in Worcester that hit 11th a week or two ago, but it really isn't as good. No offense to the guy who built it or anything. IMO, not to hate on the W Stax or anything, but I feel that the U/B version offers a lot more mid-late game plan than Wx at very minimal disadvantage in card choices - mostly b/c Humility is generally better than Abyss. Those PW'ers seem a lot more flexible as your win-con, too. If you don't mind paying for the second mortgage, anyway.

[xfxf]

No love for the Mono W Stax after the unban of Land Tax?

[feline]

Chalice of the void in deck > land tax in deck, though one could argue you could play around your own chalice, then the second problem becomes adding in more basic lands, since the deck already runs mishra's factory, wasteland, ancient tomb, city of traitors, mox diamond, flagstones of troikar, and then some plains after those 24 mana producing cards.

[xfxf]

Chalice on 1 and Land tax are antisynergistic but Land Tax is best in early turns anyway. So in theory if you open with Land Tax you try to abuse it first then can lock the game down with Chalice after your draw your cards. If you open up with Chalice turn 1 Land Tax becomes dead but could still take place in the deck for the match ups where you don't need Chalice on 1. Also about the manabase, do you need that many non-colored lands? The White Stax lists on salvation, the dutch stax lists run quite a number of basic plains as well omitting manlands etc.

[paeng4983]

Land Tax is not for this deck.
I think it is more suited for land edge or loam type decks.

[feline]

Got me a 4 win 1 loss On Sunday the 12th of August pushing prison stax, only loss was to a Show and Tell deck pushing Omniscience

I suppose the less traditional part of my build is that I don't maindeck Oblivion Ring and instead use Tangle wire, Oblivion ring helps with some things, Tangle wire help's with other things, and for my meta's the Tangle wire is going further, though the Oblivion ring would have helped in the matchup that was a loss, the Show & Tell deck, not having Tangle wire would have meant loosing to the RUG deck the previous round, it helps alot against RUG and the Oblivion ring is only a 1 for 1.

[Anarky87]

This might be a bit of a necro, so I apologize. Having most of the parts from MUD stompy, can anyone post a recent Armageddon Stax list that I can work off of? I'd appreciate it.

[feline]

Yes actually, this is one of the decks I follow regularly:
Though this first list is listed as a "Mono White Prison" deck:
October-28th-2012 - Jacob Lombas - StarCityGames.com Legacy Open - New Orleans - 15 of 91 players
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9424&iddeck=68831
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Humility
3 Moat
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Karn Liberated
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Batterskull
1 Expedition Map
1 Zuran Orb
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Scroll Rack
3 Trinisphere
4 Mox Diamond
1 Ancient Den
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
3 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
6 Plains
~SB
2 Brittle Effigy
1 Expedition Map
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Armageddon
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

May-13th-2012 - Hannes Knabe-paulsen - Iserlohner Magic-Treff - 5 of 68 players
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8321&iddeck=60643
2 Baneslayer Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Armageddon
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Savannah
3 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Wasteland
~SB
3 Choke
2 Cursed Totem
1 Karmic Justice
1 Moat
1 Rule of Law
2 Sphere of Law
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Torpor Orb

December-4th-2011 - Zack Strait - StarCityGames.com Legacy Open - St. Louis - 13 of 277 players
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7268&iddeck=52898
3 Hero of Bladehold
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Armageddon
3 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Lightning Greaves
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Trinisphere
3 Batterskull
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
3 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
9 Plains
~SB
1 Batterskull
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Decree of Justice
3 Wrath of God
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

As one can see though, the success of the deck is few & far between, these 3 lists span over almost a year, though smaller tournaments (like 20-30 person tourneys) also have some successful lists, noted from here: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=Stax&format=Legacy

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

I haven't posted on this thread in a while, but it may be a good time to revamp a deck list. As inconsistent of a deck that it may be, CotV can be very devastating for most tier one decks. I run them in the SB of Lands, but to main deck these against BUG/RUG Delver, Spiral Tide, StoneBlade variants, you could really "luck sack" your way into top 8ing one of these star city events. I did play Stax for 2.5 years in 2006-2009, and it did some impressive stuff. I always had a problem finishing the games thought, since I ran 3 Magus of the Tabernacle, 3 Factory, and a random beater, but has anyone put thought into Rest in Peace/Helm of Obedience? I understand that Crucible is a big part of the deck, but has anyone toyed around with an updated Stax deck utilizing this combo?

[Anarky87]

Have people found if the 'quad laser' version (4's of CoW, Chalice, Trini, Stack, etc.) performs better, or if the versions incorporating Dutch elements has worked for them? Guess I'm looking for some of people's personal dealings. I was leaning more towards just the 4-of version myself, but I've been busy as of late to throw something together.

[feline]

I've been running a version that somehow just has 4 of's all the way down the list, including 4 plains, was able to go 4 wins 0 losses at a local tourney this past Sunday, final round was against an Esperblade deck, which got a game 2 off me but I still managed to win the match, eventually locking them out from doing much with trinisphere, chalice of the void at 1 and another at 2, crucible of worlds, and wastelands against any non basics.

[Anarky87]

I was running an all 4 ofs list, but recently I made a switch of -1 Stack, -1 Trini, -1 O. Ring to try out +3 Suppression Field. Not sure if I like it yet or how much I can kinda ignore the symmetrical effect. Got some extra Christmas money that escaped the bills brigade, so I'll probably pick up the few pieces I'm missing.

@Feline: Can you PM or post your list. Perhaps for brainstorming purposes?

Edit: Also, what're some ideas on SB? I think I'll have some Stoneblade, Maverick, Reanimator, maybe some fish. I was thinking some amount of Leylines, Uba Mask, maybe the 4th Trini, Stack, and Ring. Hana's Custody, Cursed Totem, or Wrath.

[feline]

4 Plains
4 Flagstones of trokair
4 Mox diamond
4 Ancient tomb
4 City of traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's factory
4 Chalice of the void
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Ghostly prison
4 Magus of the tabernacle
4 Humility
4 Armageddon
[Sideboard]
4 Tormod's crypt
4 Leyline of sanctity
4 Stony Silence
3 Oblivion ring

Before Humility, I was running Tangle wire, and before Tangle wire I was running Oblivion ring's maindeck.

[kusumoto]

4 Plains
4 Flagstones of trokair
4 Mox diamond
4 Ancient tomb
4 City of traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's factory
4 Chalice of the void
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Ghostly prison
4 Magus of the tabernacle
4 Humility
4 Armageddon
[Sideboard]
4 Tormod's crypt
4 Leyline of sanctity
4 Stony Silence
3 Oblivion ring

Before Humility, I was running Tangle wire, and before Tangle wire I was running Oblivion ring's maindeck.

Doesnt humility make magus not work?

[feline]

Correct it becomes a 1/1 with both out.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

Humility seems very bad in the deck, shutting off Magus. Do you ever get land screwed? I find that 25 lands is pushing it...

[kusumoto]

It seems that with humility dutch stax is just a better idea.

[frogger42]

Has anyone tested Sun Titan to see if it's viable in the meta? I'd love it to be. Here's a rough idea for a build, but I haven't tested it because I'm working on another deck right now:

6 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
4 Mox Diamond
2 Chrome Mox

2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Sun Titan
4 Exalted Angel

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
4 Suppression Field (???)
4 Cataclysm

I want to SB the Fields and put in an efficient fattie, but I haven't come up with one yet. Maybe Stoneforge and Batterskull with one more equip. Like I said, this list has been sitting in my box because I haven't been able to test it yet, but I wanted to get an idea of what other finishers the deck could run. I'm not sold on Hero of Bladehold for this, because Batterskull and Goyf eat that dude up, ugh.

[Anarky87]

After a few iterations, the list I've landed on is thus:

5 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

4 Mox Diamond

4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

4 Ghostly Prison
4 Oblivion Ring

4 Magus of the Tabernacle

I was running 3 Suppression Fields, but got tired of how they would sometimes hamstring my own gameplan with Wastes and Factories. Maybe a SB choice, not sure yet. Also, I added in an extra plains as I started to see myself coming up tight on mana in games.

[(nameless one)]

I have most of the pieces of this deck except for Magus but getting that shouldn't be an issue.

I am wondering on what are the good and bad matchups of this deck, also if I should even other trading for a forth Crucible and a playset of Magus.

[joemauer]

I have most of the pieces of this deck except for Magus but getting that shouldn't be an issue.

I am wondering on what are the good and bad matchups of this deck, also if I should even other trading for a forth Crucible and a playset of Magus.

The deck has a weakness to Jace and Show and Tell decks.

This deck can be strong against almost any deck, depending on die roll and your hand.

[1337erhosen]

After a few iterations, the list I've landed on is thus:

5 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

4 Mox Diamond

4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

4 Ghostly Prison
4 Oblivion Ring

4 Magus of the Tabernacle

I was running 3 Suppression Fields, but got tired of how they would sometimes hamstring my own gameplan with Wastes and Factories. Maybe a SB choice, not sure yet. Also, I added in an extra plains as I started to see myself coming up tight on mana in games.

I'm essentially running the same list, but instead of running 4 Oblivion Ring main I'm running 2x World Queller and 2x Elspeth, which I feel are less reactive but still answer our biggest problem, which is opposing Planeswalkers. So far the list has been testing well against Stoneblade and Combo, which is the main section of my (Ohio/Michigan) meta, and I think I might run it at SCG Indy next weekend.

[1337erhosen]

Finished in top 4 of a 22-man tournament in Ypsilanti, MI on Monday with this list:

4 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 World Queller

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Trinisphere
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Smokestack
4 Armageddon
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

4 Mox Diamond

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
8 Plains

SB:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Defense Grid
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Karakas

I got the first round bye, which allowed me to squeak into top 8 on breakers. My matches included beating 2x Omnishow and Burn and losing to Maverick and Landstill. Needless to say there were very few tier 1 decks in the room. I'm going to Get Your Game On tonight in Ann Arbor, and they usually draw 20 people, so we'll see if I have more results to post.

Any thoughts on the list? I was happy with the sideboard, but would love constructive criticism

[Anarky87]

World Queller is an interesting choice I hadn't thought of. Grats on the results, I haven't played any Magic in a couple months, but this is a favorite deck of mine, so I'd interested in hearing the details.

[(nameless one)]

If Suppression Field isn't being used, why isn't Rest in Piece+Helm of Obedience being used as a win-con?

RIP is great in hosing a lot of graveyard strategies. Granted, Crucible wouldn't be useful.

[nedleeds]

Suppression Field is insane right now against almost everything. Honestly ... it's a better turn 1 play than Chalice on 1 these days which is saying quite a bit.

[joemauer]

If Suppression Field isn't being used, why isn't Rest in Piece+Helm of Obedience being used as a win-con?

RIP is great in hosing a lot of graveyard strategies. Granted, Crucible wouldn't be useful.

Locking somone out of lands via Crucible+Wasteland hasn't always been the best win condition this deck utilizes. And now that Delver and Deathrite Shaman are everywhere the Waseland lock seems even worse than ever. Stax may want to try and fit in Rest in Peace + Helm of Obedience to stay competitve. Even while playing Suppression Field the RiP+Helm combo sounds like a solid game plan.

This deck definitely needs some kind of face lift to do well at any tourney. Armageddon Stax is too reliant on the stars aligning in order to win.

[feline]

That is a very interesting point, I've been waiting for the day Prison Stax "makes a comeback" even of the slightest "bump", I didn't really think about Rest in Piece / Helm of Obedience combo, it fits without having to add any colors, and Rest in Piece randomly helps against decks that utilize the graveyard to boot as a freebie.

-edit- because I am insane, I am now working on a Primer for White/Prison Stax since it's one of the decks I play, will include notes on Dutch stax as well.

[frogger42]

I know this thread is pretty much dead, but I still really like the deck. Here's a list off the top of my head (mana might be off by a couple from my actual decklist):

4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Darksteel Citadel
5 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Exalted Angel
4 Windborn Muse
4 World Queller
4 Magus of the Tabernacle

4 Armageddon

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice


Restoration Angel is interchangeable with Magus of the Tabernacle, but I haven't tested either against the recent True-Name Nemesis decks. Resto is obviously more aggressive and works with your Exalted / SFM better. Queller should be able to take care of TNN fairly effectively, even as an expensive Edict effect. It can also eat up Batterskull - keep in mind, the trigger doesn't trigger with a permanent type named; you name the permanent upon resolution (ie, your opponent will have to bounce BS before resolution, then you can choose "creature" instead of artifact). 4x Trini instead of my usual 3x b/c of Queller.
No idea what a SB would look like right now. Maybe 2x Ravages of War, bleh. Suppression Field/ Phyrexian Revoker. O-Ring. Moat?

Thoughts? Suggestions?

[lambert101]

Hi I was looking at my friend's list of stax. I just wanted people's thoughts as it look fun as all hell. Sorry for grammar done quick before work.

Main Deck:

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Tabernacle
2 Mishara's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Flagstones
5 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy

3 Haunted Plate Mail
4 Humility
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Wrath of God
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Armageddon
1 Elspeth, Knigh Errant

Board:
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Rest in Peace
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Mox Diamond

[frogger42]

Hi I was looking at my friend's list of stax. I just wanted people's thoughts as it look fun as all hell. Sorry for grammar done quick before work.

Main Deck:

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Tabernacle
2 Mishara's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Flagstones
5 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy

3 Haunted Plate Mail
4 Humility
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Wrath of God
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Armageddon
1 Elspeth, Knigh Errant

Board:
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Rest in Peace
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Mox Diamond

Humility is a boss, but the problem with it is that it tends to come down after Batterskull has already landed. So you'll have a 5/5 on the table to contend with. But in all other MUs, it's way better than Moat.

The thing about Crucible is that it's great with Fetchlands, and this list doesn't run any. Flagstones is so much better than a fetch for this deck, especially with Geddon, so I feel like you're only really getting Waste and City back with it - about 11 slots with the other lands in this list.
And Tabernacle... it slows down certain aggro decks (Zoo, Goblins - sorta) but not really Ux decks, like the new TNN + SFM decks going around. It's really a hit or miss kinda card, and at $300+, probably not worth the investment.

I still like 2-3x Trinisphere for this deck, for the Combo MUs. Either MD or SB. You're not running combat tricks or counters, so 3-Sphere works really well to slow down your opponent. (May be better than Crucible.)

Also, Mox Diamond is either in your MD or not at all. You've got 28 lands, so enough to consider running it (I'd probably go down to 26 with this deck), and it does work fancy with Geddon.

Those were the only critiques I had for this list, but otherwise it looks pretty solid to start with. Platemail + Humility is pretty sweet, especially since you can activate all your Platemails on the stack, then let them all resolve.

EDIT: I just counted up your MD and SB, and I take it the Diamonds are in the MD. I do like the list, just one thing I worry is that your threats are necessarily weaker than typical legacy threats (Factory and Platemail vs Goyf, Batterskull, TNN). It's the nature of your deck, just you'll probably notice that you need Chalice or Humility to resolve to be in the game, and that a smart opponent can clean up your threats after dealing with those power cards.
Oh, and Elspeth's Emblem means you don't have to pay Tabernacle fees for your tokens. Just in case someone's browsing the forum and doesn't see that right away.

[diego1985]

netx weekend i will play this list in a tournament (36 players) what you think about this list? have you suggestions?

// Deck: Prison Stax (60)

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Crystal Vein
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Plains
4 Wasteland

// Creatures
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

// Sorceries
4 Armageddon

// Enchantments
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring

// Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
3 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Defense Grid
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Wrath of God


Inviato dal mio GT-S7500 con Tapatalk 2

[Captain Hammer]

I'll just leave this here...

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/128/67/635331135126786879.jpg


Advantages over Canonist...

Stops combo artifacts like Lions Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal and decks like Affinity too.
Bolt proof.
Can block Mongoose et. al and survive.

[frogger42]

I took this list to 4-1 and first place in a weekly. It definitely had a surprise factor, and there were maybe about 20 people. That's 5 rounds, right?

4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Darksteel Citadel
5 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Windborn Muse
4 World Queller
4 Exalted Angel

4 Armageddon

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

I lost to a misplay against Enchantress. That and not finding Armageddon games 2 and 3. I feel like I want to cut 2 World Quellers for 2 Ravages of War, but none of my friends have any for me to borrow. So it'll probably have to be Queller.

SB:
Suppression Field
Banishing Light
Faerie Macabre
1 RiP
1 Manriki
1 SoLaS

I played UR delver, ANT, Miracles (2-0, but he misplayed his V Clique on his land) and some BG Reanimator. It's funny, cause the Chalices and Trinispheres make Delver and ANT a near-bye, and Geddon wrecks Miracles like nothing else. So I got three favorable MUs out of 5 rounds. Reanimator just didn't run U, and he didn't have card sorting to find what he needed.
Yeah! Feel free to ask Qs.

[dcosiem]

Hey everyone. I just started playing Armageddon Stax and I really like it. The strategy is simple, but it's so strong against everyone in the meta.

I don't like the creature base stomp build because in certain matches, the creatures are removed with swords, terminus, and Liliana of the Veil.

I'm playing in SCG Washington tomorrow with this list I believe. I really hope I luck-fest tomorrow in my draws.


Main Deck

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Karakas
4 Flagstones of Trokair
5 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Kor Haven
1 Horizon Canopy

Other Spells
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon
4 Mox Diamond
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Humility
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


Sideboard

2 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Pithing Needle
2 Rule of Law
2 Nevermore
2 Cursed Totem

P.S. If any of you have comments, feel justified to explain them to me.

[dsck]

Have you tested vs BUG Delver? Feels like you cant win if you are on the draw and they resolve Delver.

[dcosiem]

Have you tested vs BUG Delver? Feels like you cant win if you are on the draw and they resolve Delver.

Yea, the match is similar to what you say. I scrubbed out at the 5th round at x-3-1 of nine rounds.

So after concluding today's matches, I would make the following changes to the list I posted up.


Maindeck
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Karakas
4 Flagstones of Trokair
5 Plains
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Armageddon
4 Mox Diamond
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Humility
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Kor Haven
2 Day of Judgment
2 Oblivion Ring


Sideboard
3 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Pithing Needle
2 Cursed Totem
1 Trinisphere
2 Ensnaring Bridge

[Nuke is Good]

Stax is my pet project deck and I'm thinking of taking it to a local LGS. The metagame is infested with burn.

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:3
2 Peacekeeper
1 Baneslayer Angel

Spells:32
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Council's Judgment
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Trinisphere
4 Armageddon
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Humility
1 Moat
3 Smokestack
1 Batterskull

Lands:25
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Plains
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in Peace
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Hanna's Custody
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of Sanctity

I am thinking of adding a 4th Chalice MB at the moment. I do like having the MB creatures as it allows me another method of attack as Stax does not have a good draw engine.

[Captain Hammer]

Drop the Tabernacle (and Humility if you run it) and Monastery Mentor seems like it would amazing in this deck, and could possibly even revive it...

The deck was always very powerful, the missing ingrediant has been an monstrous, fast and solid win condition. Monastery Mentor offers that.

Sol Lands that let you cast this guy on turn 1, Chalice that prevents your opponents from StPing it, Trinisphere and Armageddon that choke off any hope of your opponents being able to deal with your threat all together etc.

Tons of disruption/lock pieces plus a powerful threat that will end the game in a couple of turns is a match made in heaven.

Perhaps something like this...

6 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Crystal Vein

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Banishing Light
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Smokestack
2 Armageddon
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Baneslayer Angel

[Nuke is Good]

Drop the Tabernacle (and Humility if you run it) and Monastery Mentor seems like it would amazing in this deck, and could possibly even revive it...

The deck was always very powerful, the missing ingrediant has been an monstrous, fast and solid win condition. Monastery Mentor offers that.

Sol Lands that let you cast this guy on turn 1, Chalice that prevents your opponents from StPing it, Trinisphere and Armageddon that choke off any hope of your opponents being able to deal with your threat all together etc.

Tons of disruption/lock pieces plus a powerful threat that will end the game in a couple of turns is a match made in heaven.

My issue with Monastery Mentor is that card cast cheaper spells to get the tokens into play. I guess I'm just so old fashioned to prefer Elspeth for that.

[Captain Hammer]

It's a hell of a lot more powerful than Espelth.

[apple713]

It's a hell of a lot more powerful than Espelth.

sure it is, but not in this deck. at best you get 2 tokens a turn but will average to 0-1 token.

[Captain Hammer]

You really shouldn't compare a 3cc spell to a 6cc spell. The vast majority of the games this deck loses are lost well before you get enough mana on the board to cast a 6cc spell.

You're right, it generates only 1-2 tokens a turn, but the token and well as the creature itself gets bigger with each card you cast and its castable atleast 2 and usually 3 turns before Elspeth. And there will be many games that end before you ever get Elspeth onto the board.

Those 3 turns are enough to deal 17-21 points of damage to your opponent. So yes I would vastly prefer this list...

4 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Crystal Vein
2 Karakas

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Smokestack
2 Armageddon
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Baneslayer Angel

to one playing Elspeth that won't even start to damage your opponents by the time the Mentor will have already killed them.

[willydoo]

Any thoughts on Sun Titan as a wincon?

It provides a fast clock, works double duty as a blocker, helps recover from a geddon/smokestack/destroyed/countered permanents.

[Nysrol]

Any thoughts on Sun Titan as a wincon?

It provides a fast clock, works double duty as a blocker, helps recover from a geddon/smokestack/destroyed/countered permanents.

Titan may provide a quick clock but you need to get to WW4, thats alot to ask for with options like Mentor or baby Elspheth

[willydoo]

Titan may provide a quick clock but you need to get to WW4, thats alot to ask for with options like Mentor or baby Elspheth

With sol lands and moxes, 6 mana isnt out of the question.

My problem with Mentor is that it doesnt do anything by itself and has no immediate effect on the board state.

Also, I feel that having many creatures is anti synergetic with magus of the tabernacle. The deck seems to me to be better suited for single quality threats rather than overwhelming numbers.

And I would love to run Elspeth if i had moats, but unfortunately ghostly prison, doesnt protect planeswalkers.

[Nuke is Good]

With sol lands and moxes, 6 mana isnt out of the question.

My problem with Mentor is that it doesnt do anything by itself and has no immediate effect on the board state.

Also, I feel that having many creatures is anti synergetic with magus of the tabernacle. The deck seems to me to be better suited for single quality threats rather than overwhelming numbers.

And I would love to run Elspeth if i had moats, but unfortunately ghostly prison, doesnt protect planeswalkers.

Yeah Elspeth is really good with the Moat/Humility lock, you might want to consider Hero of Bladehold or Baneslayer Angel instead.

[willydoo]

Yeah Elspeth is really good with the Moat/Humility lock, you might want to consider Hero of Bladehold or Baneslayer Angel instead.

hero of bladehold suffers from similar problems as monastery mentor. While it is a threat itself, it only serves as a kill condition and doesnt really synergize with the rest of the deck.

I understand the argument over the big life swing of the angels being a sort of soft lock, but it doesnt outright provide any sort of prison effect.

Stax operates off its great synergy, however it lacks any sort of real card draw or card advantage. So, every card played has to jive in some way with the rest of them.

[Nuke is Good]

hero of bladehold suffers from similar problems as monastery mentor. While it is a threat itself, it only serves as a kill condition and doesnt really synergize with the rest of the deck.

I understand the argument over the big life swing of the angels being a sort of soft lock, but it doesnt outright provide any sort of prison effect.

Stax operates off its great synergy, however it lacks any sort of real card draw or card advantage. So, every card played has to jive in some way with the rest of them.

Sounds like you want Peacekeeper. Problem is he taxes us to keep it up. The builds I have uses Baneslayer to stabilize life totals because of how ancient tombs hurt/it can take a bit to establish the lock.

[frenadol]

If you want to play the classic Geddon Stax, or other heavy versions of Stax, there-s no need for a creature finisher. Mishra's Factory is more than enough. Dedicated meatsticks have limited utility, are hard to cast and they're easy to kill.

[willydoo]

If you want to play the classic Geddon Stax, or other heavy versions of Stax, there-s no need for a creature finisher. Mishra's Factory is more than enough. Dedicated meatsticks have limited utility, are hard to cast and they're easy to kill.

You bring up a good point. Maybe im trying to think too much outside the box.

[TLK]

Went 3-1 with Angel Prison last night. Same decklist I posted a page ago.

Wins: 2-1 vs U/R Delver, 2-0 vs Storm, 2-0 vs Counterbalance Painter
Loss: 0-2 vs Jund Depths

I think Jund Depths would've been much easier had I drawn my Humility/Graveyard hate. I've been siding in Humility quite a bit, so I may up the count in the board to 2. I also just acquired a Moat, so I'll be making room for that as well. The 3 Revokers in the mainboard are the Sphere of Resistance (don't currently own those, and not much of a fan of them after testing) flex slot, so I may try to play around with different card choices there. Let me know if you want more detail or my sideboarding strategy.

edit Perhaps I posted it in a different thread. Disregard.

[MGB]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNn7oZKWsAEbXZQ.png

Seems even better than Elspeth in this deck? I'd rather get 2/2 Knights than 1/1 Soldiers,. and his +1 ability lets you just swing for the kill if they have no blockers.

[Nuke is Good]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNn7oZKWsAEbXZQ.png

Seems even better than Elspeth in this deck? I'd rather get 2/2 Knights than 1/1 Soldiers,. and his +1 ability lets you just swing for the kill if they have no blockers.

Maybe in certain builds of Stax. Dutch Stax uses Humility+Moat with Elspeth ticking up making fliers.

[MGB]

I don't see why this guy isn't just strictly better than Elspeth. Attacking as a 5/5 all by himself is better than requiring a creature in play and pumping +3/+3. Generating 2/2 tokens is generally better than generating 1/1 tokens.

[Curby]

Nuke is Good covered a big reason. Another is that making dudes doesn't actually grow Gideon, so he would just stay at starting loyalty if you're pumping out tokens for permanents to feed to Smokestack. It's not a huge deal, but it's something. After all, "strictly better than" is seldom seen in Magic. :)

Anyway, I do like him in (non-Dutch) Geddon Stax.

[fluuu]

Can u guys post a stax list?? A heqvier one u dont want to face.

[ParkerLewis]

Hi guys,

looking for a standard Armageddon Stax decklist to start tinkering with. What would be a good starting point ?

Thanks.

[mykatdied]

When I play Geddon Stax this is the list that I use

Deck: stax geddon (60)

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factory
7 Plains
4 Wasteland

Spells
3 Armageddon
3 Batterskull
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Humility
1 Moat
4 Mox Diamond
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Smokestack
3 Tangle Wire
4 Trinisphere

Sideboard
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Rule of Law
3 Timely Reinforcements

A lot of people opt towards 4 stack, 4 crucible, 4 elspeth, 4 tangle wire and build from there. I like having a couple of oblivion ring as mainboard answers to planeswalkers which can be problematic if we can't control mana early. I don't like having too many Elspeth, but the new Gideon could take her place if you were more interested in him. I had a decent amount of success at my LGS with this list. Humility is a beating for so many decks.

[caprino]

When I play Geddon Stax this is the list that I use

Deck: stax geddon (60)

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factory
7 Plains
4 Wasteland

Spells
3 Armageddon
3 Batterskull
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Humility
1 Moat
4 Mox Diamond
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Smokestack
3 Tangle Wire
4 Trinisphere

Sideboard
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Rule of Law
3 Timely Reinforcements

A lot of people opt towards 4 stack, 4 crucible, 4 elspeth, 4 tangle wire and build from there. I like having a couple of oblivion ring as mainboard answers to planeswalkers which can be problematic if we can't control mana early. I don't like having too many Elspeth, but the new Gideon could take her place if you were more interested in him. I had a decent amount of success at my LGS with this list. Humility is a beating for so many decks.


I tried a version with 4 moat,I do not play anything in side against reanimator, dredge etc.?

[Shax]

The new Thalia and 2 new Angel's spoiled that meld into a Eldrazi are all perfect fits for Armageddon Stax.

Here's my current list:

4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Plains
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire
2 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War
4 Exalted Angel
4 Ghostly Prison
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 Hanna's Custody
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 4 Aura of Silence


The only changes to be made are swapping out Exalted Angel for the new Thalia, Lodestone Golem, or old Thalia(Or the new Angels). Cutting Ghostly Prison for Black Vise, or Land Tax; and swapping out the 4 Plains for 4 Tabernacle at the Pendrill Vale if you use Black Vise or possibly new Thalia or Lodestone Golem. If you use Land Tax I would suggest cutting the Flagstones of Trokair for 4 Plains.

If you add the new Angels I would take out Exalted Angel, and possibly start making cuts across the board to fit 4 of the other angel in or cut Ghostly Prison all together since this other Angel has First Strike.

You could also use Thalia's Lancers in the place of Exalted Angel and replace the 4 Flagstones with 4 Tabernacle at the Pendrill Vale, since it's Legendary.

That's it for cuts and what I suggest in the future, get to Stacking!

[non-inflammable]

so after playing lands for about 2 years, i wanted to switch it up.
and it's easy to get everything with black border...


26 Lands

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Flagstones of Trokair (is it worth it with only 1 plains?)
1 Karakas (bounce somebody?)
3 Mishra's Factory (got a winter factory)
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy (draw?)
4 Wasteland
1 Riftstone Portal (hope to get it in the yard)
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All (might be good for 'geddon?)
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (all your creatures die)
3 Cavern of Souls (golem!)


34 business cards

4 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds (just got a judge promo!)
4 Lodestone Golem (win condition and control!)
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack (favorite card)
2 Tangle Wire (seems fun)
3 Trinisphere
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon (wasn't sure)
1 Trading Post (more fun)
1 Sundial of the Infinite (alt win condition?)

Sideboard (taken from charlie-in-the-mox)
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Rest in Peace
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Enlightened Tutor



EDIT:
fun deck
went 3-1 for 2nd place
played against burn twice and storm once. lost to BUG control in finals
didn't play against D&T, Lands, S&S

Almost every opening hand had the ability to make two or more mana. I did have to mull twice but I mulled to 5 against the storm player and still won.
Only changes would be Ugin. I was never able to generate enough mana once smokestack started to eat away at the board.
Sideboard changes will be to drop the rest in peace and put 4 leyline of sanctity.
the BUG control player had a FOW for my chalice and from then on I was duressed and thoughtseized and hymned to second place.
Also, might take out the enlightened tutors for timely reinforcements.

great interaction between trading post and smokestack, especially against burn to gain 4 life by discarding a card.
I even lived the dream of smokestack and sundial of the infinite against my second burn opponent.

might switch out ugin for a gargoyle castle, great recursion with crucible of worlds...

LAST EDIT:
Rifstone Portal should come out, Gargoyle castle goes in. Ugin comes out and another Tangle Wire goes in...

[ghostfire86]

This is my current list once the last of my cards come in this week.

Mainboard
2 sanctum prelate
4 Magus of the tabernacle

3 Armageddon

4 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring
1 sylvan library

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere

2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of trokair
1 Ghostly Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factory
5 Plains
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell
3 Wasteland


Sideboard
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
2 leyline of sanctity
1 Auta of Silence
2 Choke
2 Defense Grid
2 humility
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle

[frogger42]

This is my current list once the last of my cards come in this week.

Mainboard
2 sanctum prelate
4 Magus of the tabernacle

3 Armageddon

4 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring
1 sylvan library

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere

2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of trokair
1 Ghostly Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factory
5 Plains
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell
3 Wasteland


Sideboard
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
2 leyline of sanctity
1 Auta of Silence
2 Choke
2 Defense Grid
2 humility
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle

Hi! Just a general response to your deck - I'm not quite sure what its gameplan is. But I'll first start off here...

I consider the mono-W Sol Land decks to be of two varieties - Angel (or no angel) Stompy, or some version of Stax. What's the difference between the two? Stompy tends to rely on over-costed creatures (often prison pieces themselves, like Windborn Muse). Stax tends to rely on non-creature prison pieces - things like Ghostly Prison and Smokestack.

One thing you'll notice in playing your deck is that you have creature hate - and creatures (specifically looking at you, Sanctum Prelate!). Nonbo, unless you're relying on gaining board position with beaters. Another thing is that your deck is mostly Stax-like - you actually don't want to Armageddon all that often! Half of your permanents on field will be lands, and you'll be setting back your own board position a LOT! Even if you have Crucible of Worlds, Geddon sets you back at least 2 turns, likely 3 - and if you don't have Crucible, you might have cost yourself the game right there.

So Stompy generally has a board presence (with creatures and sometimes equipment) so that when you Armageddon, you gain a TON of board control. Your opponent loses their option to interact with you, and you pound away / lock 'em out with dudes. Stax is different: it does it through generally non-interactive pieces, which it keeps accumulating turn after turn until you lock them out completely - so if you Geddon in Stax, you slow down your own board plan.

Example of a stax deck - you'll see it doesn't want to run Geddons, even if they were in the right colors:
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_planeswalker_stax_wi.html

Stompy deck (specifically Geddon stompy): http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?2635-Deck-Angel-Stompy&p=968067&viewfull=1#post968067

Both decks generally want to run the 4x City of Traitors. It's a necessary evil of the deck. And Crystal Vein cannot substitute for it in the deck - you get at least 4 mana off a City, and often only 2 off a Vein. Your card choices and mana curve are limited by City, yes, but running a lotta 2-3 drops is just the nature of this kind of deck. Just like how dual+fetch decks are limited in their card choices - generally 1-2 drops prevail, with only a handful of 3-4 drops.

So I think your decklist is a strong start! Personally, I like running Stompy more (I LOVE Geddon) but Humility x4 has its benefits, too... hahaha. Does that make sense?

[Curby]

I agree that Prelate seems like it doesn't belong (though I'd like to hear ghostfire's reasoning before totally skewering it), but I disagree that Armageddon doesn't belong in Stax. In fact, "Armageddon Stax" is the name as it is known to many players:

https://www.google.com/search?q=armageddon+stax

There is the idea of Dutch stax which relies more on the Moat/Humility combo than Geddon. If you think Geddon doesn't belong in Stax, maybe you're more used to the Dutch build. However, both are definitely viable.

The key behind breaking Geddon isn't just Crucible, but also Mox Diamond and Flagstones. You can Geddon, play land for turn, and pass with 3-4 mana sources on the field. Geddon in turn is backbreaking with Tabernacle effects, Ghostly Prison, Suppression Field, and other Stax staples. In short, Geddon is very much a key card in non-Dutch builds.

Speaking of Flagstones, I highly recommend running the full four. Not only is it great with Geddon itself, it can be sacced to Smokestack at negligible cost.

[ghostfire86]

So right now the sol lands are "as is" because i still have money to drop on a full polish. Plus o need extensive play testing on it still. Prelate is in the deck for combo decks that I meet up with in my meta. Dropping turn two if a turn one chalice is not available is still effective and it shuts down abrupt decay if needed. I'll fill y'all in on my games after the holidays are up and I have time to makes some plays. This is not a final product so try to avoid that frame of assumption.

[frogger42]

I agree that Prelate seems like it doesn't belong (though I'd like to hear ghostfire's reasoning before totally skewering it), but I disagree that Armageddon doesn't belong in Stax. In fact, "Armageddon Stax" is the name as it is known to many players:

https://www.google.com/search?q=armageddon+stax

There is the idea of Dutch stax which relies more on the Moat/Humility combo than Geddon. If you think Geddon doesn't belong in Stax, maybe you're more used to the Dutch build. However, both are definitely viable.



Hi Kirbysdl - thanks for your input. I've already set my argument for why Armageddon is anti-synergistic with Stax prison-like strategies. I'm still not seeing your logical reason for wanting to include it - other than "It's the name of the deck." Feel free to piece apart my argument with your analysis, but basically, Armageddon can only get you ahead in certain situational circumstances. Geddon in "Angel" Stompy basically always gets you ahead - since you still have your win-cons on the field.

Basically, think of the difference between the two old-school effects: Wrath of God and Armageddon. Wrath wipes all creatures, so you want to leverage your board power in non-creature permanents (lands, planeswalkers, etc). Geddon wipes all lands, so don't rely on your lands to get you ahead - basically creatures, maybe PW'ers (if you're not running Suppression Fields). I think mine is a fair and reasoned analysis here. Does my analysis seem pretty accurate to you?

I'm only arguing here because, again, this dude's decklist runs 3x Geddon, and I think he can do better. Find something more synergistic. Probably Wrath / Humility would do the job; either card is basically a one-sided effect for his (or her!) opponent.

[frogger42]

So right now the sol lands are "as is" because i still have money to drop on a full polish. Plus o need extensive play testing on it still. Prelate is in the deck for combo decks that I meet up with in my meta. Dropping turn two if a turn one chalice is not available is still effective and it shuts down abrupt decay if needed. I'll fill y'all in on my games after the holidays are up and I have time to makes some plays. This is not a final product so try to avoid that frame of assumption.

Yeah, I honestly don't know what City is at right now, but it is absolutely certainly not a budget card.

*checks ebay*

Okay, $100. Could be worse. I just sold some U Duals for avg of over $200 each. But budgets, life, food and housing - these all have to be considered before some blasted game.

I only mentioned getting the 4x City because it's the manabase of the deck. You'll find you'll lose some games - and in reeeeally frustrating ways - because you can't cast your haymaker. It's like running Delver with fetches + basics, no duals - and nobody likes not being able to cast their spells. It's not a fun time all-around. That's why I place the emphasis on it; the spells of a deck, eh! As long as you're able to cast them, you're in the game.

But don't spend money you don't have on cards you can't afford. Ask at your LGS! Someone might have them to borrow - and some LGS's might even let you jam 2x proxies. IMO, they should. Legacy is hard enough to get into - and I feel that anyone wanting to get into it shouldn't be barred out by $200 of cards. That's just bad business. And it works counterproductively to your local Legacy community. Just my thoughts, here, though.

[Curby]

Perhaps you didn't see my reasoning because you stopped quoting my post just before you got to the reasoning? :rolleyes:

Keep reading my post above for why Geddon is incredibly synergistic.

Aside from what I already wrote, Geddon is also delightfully asymmetrical. You have faster lands. You have recurring lands. You have non-land mana sources. You have more actual lands. Compared to most decks, you can recover from a Geddon much more easily, especially if you consider greedy decks with 10 fetches and only 8 or so actual mana-producing lands.

Geddon is so key to non-Dutch Stax builds that I'm honestly wondering if you're trolling here. Thankfully, I don't have to convince you because the history of the archetype has proven how Geddon can and does work. Search for articles or threads about Stax and you'll see plenty of discussion about the great things that Geddon does for the deck. Or don't. No skin off my back.

[frogger42]

Perhaps you didn't see my reasoning because you stopped quoting my post just before you got to the reasoning? :rolleyes:

Keep reading my post above for why Geddon is incredibly synergistic.

Aside from what I already wrote, Geddon is also delightfully asymmetrical. You have faster lands. You have recurring lands. You have non-land mana sources. You have more actual lands. Compared to most decks, you can recover from a Geddon much more easily, especially if you consider greedy decks with 10 fetches and only 8 or so actual mana-producing lands.

Geddon is so key to non-Dutch Stax builds that I'm honestly wondering if you're trolling here. Thankfully, I don't have to convince you because the history of the archetype has proven how Geddon can and does work. Search for articles or threads about Stax and you'll see plenty of discussion about the great things that Geddon does for the deck. Or don't. No skin off my back.

Fine. Here's your whole quote this time.

I put up my reasoning, here's yours: "Thankfully, I don't have to convince you because the history of the archetype has proven how Geddon can and does work." Can you explain that to me? All I'm seeing is - "this is what other people say," again. What do they say? How does it actually play out? You're offering no analysis to help this guy here.

Again, to sum up - I'm saying Angel Stompy loves Geddon, Mono-White Stax doesn't. I explained the difference between these two strategies. This is important to Ghostfire - he's running Geddon in a (mostly) Stax deck.

And how am I wrong here? And feel free to quote me where I'm wrong - with your analysis only. Show me, don't tell me I'm wrong. Use probability, math, anything that we can quantify here - this is a math-based game (made by a math PhD). I'll reply with my analysis. Thanks.

[mistercakes]

if you enjoy the stax cards but want to jump out of white, i had some success with a UB version a few years ago. (note the mox opal here was the only card i would change....then consider cards that came out in subsequent sets. i might consider uba mask in the sb as well.)

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20053-Planeswalker-Stax&p=532294&viewfull=1#post532294

[frogger42]

if you enjoy the stax cards but want to jump out of white, i had some success with a UB version a few years ago. (note the mox opal here was the only card i would change....then consider cards that came out in subsequent sets. i might consider uba mask in the sb as well.)

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20053-Planeswalker-Stax&p=532294&viewfull=1#post532294

Hi Mistercakes! I do miss the ole UB Planeswalker Stax a bit. I'm going to point out here, that yes - there are a lot of different ways to brew Stax. Having access to sol-lands and going from CMC 1-2 to CMC 2-4 opens the floodgates when it comes to brewing.

However, I'm going to suggest to Ghostfire in particular (who's got the latest decklist) not to do UB. I've got a few reasons:

-It's heck more expensive. He doesn't have 4x City of Traitors, so perhaps budget is a concern in deckbuilding.
-One of the main haymakers - The Abyss - is no longer good in this meta. I found that out the hard way, like 4-5 months ago. Too many token-generators, and the occasional True-Name Nemisis has rendered The Abyss a super-ineffective prison piece.
-Also, with Tokens and TNN - even Jace isn't that good anymore. "Bounce a token... woot." And he's one of the main win-cons.

There are a few things you can do to tinker with UB Stax, but I've tried, and I personally haven't found it worthwhile pursuing at the moment. However, y'all do feel free to brew up different color variants on Stax. There's a LOT of exploring to be done.

[mistercakes]

ah those are true points. i haven't looked at this deck for years. mostly b/c i sold my tabernacles for the sweet price of 300 each! (a 200% profit!)

if the abyss is bad now, i would recommend loading up on more tangle wires and running the 4th bridge.

if the planeswalkers in that list aren't so good, you could also venture into other colors instead. green has some cool new planeswalkers. it's really complimentary to the deck, as the meat and potatoes of the stax decks are these busted artifacts.

i loved recurring wasteland with crucible. the maindeck maze of ith's and tabernacles were also great (especially with urborg).

a turn 1 resolved trinisphere is probably going to beat everything that isn't show and tell these days anyway. even then you could show and tell an ensnaring bridge, which would beat most of that stuff anyway.

[frogger42]

if the planeswalkers in that list [UB Planeswalker Stax - my note] aren't so good, you could also venture into other colors instead. green has some cool new planeswalkers. it's really complimentary to the deck, as the meat and potatoes of the stax decks are these busted artifacts.


I think it's funny you said this. I haven't really thought about it, but that's what I've been tinkering with this past year - not the "meat and potatoes," but the flavors of Stax - the colors and the PW'ers, hahaha. Right now, I've done well with Wu(b), and am pretty much done tinkering with UR(g). Great minds think alike, I guess.
Except I haven't tried Green all that much...

FYI - the tinkering I've made to UB has been MD Toxic Deluge - but again, you really want a permanent to deal with stuff. Maybe that terrible Kamigawa legendary enchantment... yarg. Night of Soul's Betrayal or whatever it is.

[mistercakes]

i usually just feel pretty safe with engineered plague. it beats most of the decks that are running creatures that the 4cc would deal with.

i might consider a black/green version as the new nissa is really strong and you then have access to abrupt decay and all the good black / green sb options. (+ urborg actually helps your fixing too)

maybe a combination of liliana/obnix/nissa/garruk relentless would be a good approach. dunno.

[frogger42]

i usually just feel pretty safe with engineered plague. it beats most of the decks that are running creatures that the 4cc would deal with.

i might consider a black/green version as the new nissa is really strong and you then have access to abrupt decay and all the good black / green sb options. (+ urborg actually helps your fixing too)

maybe a combination of liliana/obnix/nissa/garruk relentless would be a good approach. dunno.

I'm more than happy to help you brew up a decklist, but perhaps we take the discussion off these forums? 1-on-1 tends to be better for initial brainstorming, I find (even through a Chalice, ha). Feel free to private message me some way to contact you - like email, FB, whatever. I've got like 1-2 cards I think need to be in BG. Thanks!

[Fred_Bear]

Fine. Here's your whole quote this time.

I put up my reasoning, here's yours: "Thankfully, I don't have to convince you because the history of the archetype has proven how Geddon can and does work." Can you explain that to me? All I'm seeing is - "this is what other people say," again. What do they say? How does it actually play out? You're offering no analysis to help this guy here.

Again, to sum up - I'm saying Angel Stompy loves Geddon, Mono-White Stax doesn't. I explained the difference between these two strategies. This is important to Ghostfire - he's running Geddon in a (mostly) Stax deck.

And how am I wrong here? And feel free to quote me where I'm wrong - with your analysis only. Show me, don't tell me I'm wrong. Use probability, math, anything that we can quantify here - this is a math-based game (made by a math PhD). I'll reply with my analysis. Thanks.

Mono-White Stax loves Armageddon (and Ravages of War for that matter). Please read through the beginning pages of this thread where a lot of the initial work was done on the deck/archetype. The synergy of Armageddon is to create a 'tax' and then eliminate the ability of your opponent to pay, some quick examples - (a) land Magus of the Tabernacle + Armageddon to sweep the board, (b) land Ghostly Prison + Armageddon to Time Walk and/or Ensnaring Bridge, (c) land Trinisphere (or another Sphere) + Armageddon to Time Walk (or multiple Time Walk), or even (d) Smokestack + Armageddon to force them into removing creatures/planeswalkers/etc. White Stax also has several symmetry breaking tools to help - Flagstones, Mox Diamond, Crucible of Worlds... Armageddon is one of the best reasons to play mono-White Stax.

I had replied to ghostfire86 in the regular Stax thread a couple days ago, but maybe this discussion is better over here. I started tinkering several weeks ago on MTGO with a few lists and, as is the case with many legacy decks, it can be strong depending on your understanding of the match-ups. Stax is certainly not overpowered in the current meta and your understanding of which lines are important and viable in any match-up can put most of your match-ups somewhere in the 40-60% win range. There are lines against almost every archetype which can't be defeated, but Stax is a tough deck to force into a line of play.

Here's the current list I'm on for MTGO:

Lands (24)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Inventors' Fair
1 Karakas
6 Plains
3 Wasteland

Creatures (3)
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

Artifacts (19)
4 Mox Diamond
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere
1 Bottled Cloister
2 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the Void

White Cards (14)
3 Suppression Field
3 Banishing Light
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War

Sideboard (15)
2 Spiritual Focus
3 Sanctum Prelate
1 Ravages of War
2 Humility
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Sun Titan
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ensnaring Bridge

The big decks online are Miracles, Eldrazi Stompy, Grixis Delver, Elves, and Shardless BUG. All winnable (and potential losses) with the right information.

Here are some of my explanations of current card choices:

Sol Lands (8) - I don't like playing all 4 City of Traitors, but it's a necessary evil at this point. You really want to have action on turn 1 on the play, so having enough ways to hit 2 or 3 mana is critical. The only way I could see to drop a City would be to add Grim Monoliths, but I really don't like going beyond 28 mana sources (the main reason I don't like mono-brown stax right now where lists are pushing nearly 35 mana sources).

Flagstones of Trokair (3) - I dropped 1 of these because the utility lands are just more useful in the current meta.

Horizon Canopy (1) - This is better than I thought. The ability to randomly draw 1-5 cards (thanks Crucible) is very good.

Karakas (1) - This is at worst a plains and at best Griselbrand/Marit Lage/Emrakul protection. Win-win.

Inventor's Fair (2) - Broken when it works. Ancient Tomb protection when it doesn't.

Wasteland (3) - I was a little sad to cut one of these from my list, but it's just not as good as it once was.

Plains (6) - Obvious.

Magus of the Tabernacle (3) - Just as good as ever. He randomly hoses both Young Pyromancer and Monastery Mentor, makes Eldrazi inefficient, and single-handedly stops swarms of creatures. I was surprised coming back to the deck just how good he still was.

Mox Diamond (4) - Obvious. Accelerates us on turn 1 and 2.

Sphere of Resistance (2) - This is probably the most controversial card in my starting 60. It's great in the current meta, though. Against most decks, you'll get a Time Walk with it early and later it combos with a lot of the other taxes that are delaying them from ending the game. It's also an easy pitch to Smokestack late. The best part, though, is that it pushes the number of plays you have early. One of my least favorite things about a lot of Stax lists is that Chalice is your only turn 1 play without a Mox Diamond and that still requires a Sol land. By adding in Spheres and Suppression Fields, this build offers a lot more in early turns.

Crucible of Worlds (2) - Wastelock isn't as strong as it once was, so these are really to break the symmetry of Armageddon.

Trinisphere (4) - Still back-breaking for most decks to overcome. I would guess 50-60% of the cards in the format cost less than 3 mana, so this is a beast for decks trying to skimp on lands/mana sources.

Bottled Cloister (1) - With so little maindeck artifact removal, this is totally worth it. It literally gets sided out versus everything since it is such a blow-out if it gets hit. The extra draw makes Game 1 a lot smoother, though.

Smokestack (2) - Removal with inevitability. By the time several of the locks are in place, this is unbeatable.

Chalice of the Void (4) - Obviously a great turn 1 play which eliminates most of the format's removal. I typically go - 1, 0 (Shardless or Combo), 2 (or potentially a second on 1 depending on the match-up). I will admit I side these out a lot, though. Cavern of Souls and Abrupt Decay take away a lot of the effectiveness.

Suppression Field (3) - Probably the most underplayed card in the format in my opinion. DRS, Jace, etc. have literally made this card that much better than it ever was when it was initially printed. As I mentioned, it also provides another line if you have the Diamond, but no Sol Land.

Banishing Light (3) - The best way to answer an early threat or a planeswalker.

Ghostly Prison (4) - Disrupting the combat step is surprisingly good, too. I thought this card would be a little antiquated from the days when every other match-up was goblins, but it's not. The tax is rough for both Eldrazi and Delver to make use of their inherent efficiency.

Armageddon (4) - I split these between Ravages and Armageddon just 'cause. It used to be a way to get around a Meddling Mage, but that is very seldom an issue anymore. I went over the synergies above, but this is, again, an absolute beating for most of the land-cheating, library-filtering decks in the current meta.

As I pointed out, my sideboard is built for the more common decks online:

Spiritual Focus (2) - Comes in against discard (obviously) like Shardless BUG, etc.

Sanctum Prelate (3) - Abrupt Decay is public enemy #1 and this stops it. Chalice at 1 plus a Sanctum Prelate on 2 stops nearly everything you need to be concerned with in the current meta. I don't know if he's worth maindeck slots, but he's great in game #2 against anyone siding in artifact hate (Abrupt Decay)

Ravages of War (1) - I like this against a couple decks post-board just because it helps keep them off their bombs.

Humility (2) - Worth it in several match-ups to shut off creatures.

Leyline of Sanctity (2) - Discard and combo. The nice thing is that you don't have to have it in your opener with this deck.

Sun Titan (1) - Comes in against a couple of decks as a way to recur discarded or countered or sacrificed items. Great for finishing some of the grindier matches as well.

Sphere of Resistance (1) - I like adding this against some match-ups on the play for game 2 to increase my early 'threat' density. It's also good against control or pseudo-control to further disrupt their mana.

Crucible of Worlds (1) - Helps versus other mana disruption or if the focus is on Armageddon.

Ensnaring Bridge (2) - Silver Bullet to stop big creatures. This is, in my opinion, another one of the best cards in the format right now. It plays an insurance roll in this deck and provides another layer to hide behind against deck which can remove 1 layer.




From my experience, the deck's biggest weaknesses are (a) getting hit with fast openers (not even necessarily god draws) and (b) providing non-useful lines of play (i.e. creature control vs combo). I do believe it's imperative to understand the lines that you need to keep open in each match-up. I've tried as much as possible to create my board such that you limit the poor lines and strengthen/expand on the strong ones.

I'd be curious to hear some feedback and listen to specific suggestions.

Thanks!

[frogger42]

Hi Fred-Bear! Thanks for weighing in! Let me address some of your points...

Actually, I think I'll address this point first - no one's proven my point invalid. Basically, I said:

"Again, to sum up - I'm saying Angel Stompy loves Geddon, Mono-White Stax doesn't. I explained the difference between these two strategies. This is important to Ghostfire - he's running Geddon in a (mostly) Stax deck."

I make a clear distinction between mono-White Stompy (which plays like other stompy decks such as Faerie Stompy, Eldrazi) and mono-White Stax - which generally has the inclusion of Planeswalkers, but mostly non-interactive prison pieces (esp heavier pieces like Smokestack/The Abyss/ etc).

I posit that Stompy - which runs an abundance of creatures - loves! - Armageddon. Stax, which tends to leverage its power by dropping Crucible, utility lands; well, basically utility lands HATE Armageddon. For obvious reasons.

A deck that wants to run Crucible loves its utility lands. Crucible acts like a hard-to-kill Planeswalker, basically - recur a Wasteland, or Inventor's Fair; basically, replay your utility lands for a spell-like effect.

Armageddon eats utility lands for breakfast. Nom nom nom. See the point I'm making here?



You bring up very true points about Geddon and the manabase - Geddon synergizes best with mana sources that benefit or are unaffected by casting Armageddon. This would include artifact mana, such as Moxen, creature mana (Birds of Paradise - which you shouldn't play with Chalice, haha) and also Darksteel Citadel. No one's mentioned Citadel because it's TERRIBLE in Stax - it's not a utility land. No synergy with Crucible.

Then there are manasources that are affected a little by Armageddon - Flagstones, and Sol-Lands. Flagstones sorta "survives" the first Geddon, not the second (which is still good) and Sol-Lands mean that instead of losing 2 basics, you're losing 1 land (also, good enough).

Everything else - Factories, Tabernacles, even Wastes (which are still fine, I suppose) - Geddon eats up. Nom nom nom. No synergy there.

Crucible strangely, then, doesn't have any real synergy with Armageddon. If you cast Geddon before you have Crucible (ie, so your Ghostly Prison comes online just to stabilize), then congrats - you've locked yourself out of the game. A Mox + a Flagstones - the optimal time to Geddon - will leave you with 2 mana, which allows you to cast nothing - basically Chalice.
Or if your opponent is clever, they might Decay (or just outright Force) your Crucible, leaving you with tough Geddon decisions. Your Stax prison pieces don't win the game on their own, and if you can't get back to 4 mana... you're shut out.



And the decklist you posted - you run incredibly powerful Legacy cards. But your deck does some awkward things to itself - you run MD Suppression Field with utility lands like Inventor's Fair and Wasteland. When you're playing, you have to make the super-awkward decision - "I have a Waste/Fair. Do I cast this Suppression Field and shut out my own cards (hoping I shut out more of my opponent's cards); or is Suppression Field not a good card to run against this deck/current board state, and I run on the power of my Waste/Fair?"

Armageddon + Crucible (and utility lands) plays this same super-awkward dance, and those two gawky teens are hard to look at when when they keep stepping on each others' toes. An experienced Legacy player will take your Crucible (or Moxen) away, and your decisions are: "Am I going to lock myself out of the game with my own card?" and "But I need to stabilize and pray I draw another Sol-Land."

This is why I'm saying - no Geddon in Stax. Your manabase is so important. Your creaturebase, however, is not. Humility away - Ghostfire's decklist runs 4-6 creatures, and they're easy enough to swap for something else.

Or run my fun deck, Angel Stompy. Armageddon's a blast, there.

I think that's pretty clear. Feel free to pick away where I'm wrong, though.

[Fred_Bear]

Hi Fred-Bear! Thanks for weighing in! Let me address some of your points...

Actually, I think I'll address this point first - no one's proven my point invalid. Basically, I said:

"Again, to sum up - I'm saying Angel Stompy loves Geddon, Mono-White Stax doesn't. I explained the difference between these two strategies. This is important to Ghostfire - he's running Geddon in a (mostly) Stax deck."

I make a clear distinction between mono-White Stompy (which plays like other stompy decks such as Faerie Stompy, Eldrazi) and mono-White Stax - which generally has the inclusion of Planeswalkers, but mostly non-interactive prison pieces (esp heavier pieces like Smokestack/The Abyss/ etc).

I posit that Stompy - which runs an abundance of creatures - loves! - Armageddon. Stax, which tends to leverage its power by dropping Crucible, utility lands; well, basically utility lands HATE Armageddon. For obvious reasons.

A deck that wants to run Crucible loves its utility lands. Crucible acts like a hard-to-kill Planeswalker, basically - recur a Wasteland, or Inventor's Fair; basically, replay your utility lands for a spell-like effect.

Armageddon eats utility lands for breakfast. Nom nom nom. See the point I'm making here?


I do see your point, but have you played the deck? Armageddon is a key element to making the strategy viable - it's the ultimate 'tax'. I get what you are saying - in the abstract, it's a rough symmetric effect and it doesn't make 'sense' to throw away cards/lands you 'need'. That's where playing the deck and seeing how it works in conjunction with the other cards becomes important. Yes, there are times where you can't or don't want to Armageddon - 3 Plains and a Wasteland with no Crucible is a terrible spot to try one. On the other hand, when you look at the board states and the various lines available to you - it can be a total blowout. You only need 4 mana in play to function for the most part and you don't want to over-extend too much beyond that early in the game (this, of course, depends on a number of factors in each match-up). There are a number of times where you will cast a Ravages off a Flagstones, Mox Diamond, and Ancient Tomb leaving you with a Plains, Mox Diamond, and your land drop for the turn. If you have a Magus to land next turn or a Trinisphere or Ghostly Prison in place, the Armageddon can easily net you a couple of Time Walks. It works because you are planning for it and you are set up to recover faster. That said, there are times where you are using it as a hail mary and it becomes an unlikely out. I had a match the other night against Nic Fit where he had established his loop, but didn't have quite enough mana to advance the board. He'd hit my Crucible and a Mox Diamond, but I still had one Diamond and a Magus. Drew into a fifth mana and blew up the world. He lost all his creatures on upkeep and scooped after a couple dead draws...

I'm not going to argue about it. White Stax loves Armageddon, thus the name of the thread and a lot of work done to create a framework for the archetype. We can agree to disagree if you're unwilling to see how it works in this deck.



And the decklist you posted - you run incredibly powerful Legacy cards. But your deck does some awkward things to itself - you run MD Suppression Field with utility lands like Inventor's Fair and Wasteland. When you're playing, you have to make the super-awkward decision - "I have a Waste/Fair. Do I cast this Suppression Field and shut out my own cards (hoping I shut out more of my opponent's cards); or is Suppression Field not a good card to run against this deck/current board state, and I run on the power of my Waste/Fair?"

Armageddon + Crucible (and utility lands) plays this same super-awkward dance, and those two gawky teens are hard to look at when when they keep stepping on each others' toes. An experienced Legacy player will take your Crucible (or Moxen) away, and your decisions are: "Am I going to lock myself out of the game with my own card?" and "But I need to stabilize and pray I draw another Sol-Land."

This is why I'm saying - no Geddon in Stax. Your manabase is so important. Your creaturebase, however, is not. Humility away - Ghostfire's decklist runs 4-6 creatures, and they're easy enough to swap for something else.

Or run my fun deck, Angel Stompy. Armageddon's a blast, there.

I think that's pretty clear. Feel free to pick away where I'm wrong, though.

I don't think your wrong, but you should try things in practice before you dismiss them based on a theory. By your logic, Force of Will is a bad card because it causes you to 2-for-1 yourself and Blood Moon (or Back to Basics) is terrible in the sideboard of Miracles because it screws up their own manabase. Yes, it makes the deck more complicated to pilot, but if you understand the interactions, you can use those interactions to your advantage. You just need to understand when and where to use them. Suppression Field is a great example and I'm glad you pointed it out.

Suppression Field - 2 mana to activate an ability. Yes, it has horrible synergy with Wasteland and Inventors' Fair in this build. Inventors' Fair is borderline unusable with a Suppression Field out and kind of embarrassing with 2. Two things, (1) I know it's there and (2) this deck doesn't rely on either Wasteland or Inventors' Fair (to be honest, I'm not sure this deck runs enough artifacts to make good use of Inventors' Fair). I can make decisions based on a game state and they aren't awkward at all. Here's an example - Turn 1 on the play - my hand - Mox Diamond, Wasteland, Plains, Suppression Field, Inventor's Fair, Trinisphere, and Armageddon - Mox discard Fair, Plains, Suppression Field. If it gets countered (which is a possibility because of the effect it will have on the game), I'm not vulnerable to Wasteland and, if it isn't, I may have just bought several turns. Remember, most of the decks in legacy play 18-22 lands with anywhere from 8-12 fetches. If my opponent kept any hand without 2 non-fetch lands, they could be locked out for a while waiting to draw a tax payment. Now, I've set up a turn 2 Trinisphere and, on turn 3, I've got lots of options, including paying two to Waste one of my opponents lands... Will there be times where you really want to waste a land and Suppression Field is out? Probably. It doesn't come up nearly as often as you might make it sound, though.

Like I said, I play on MTGO, so I only really worry about that metagame and Suppression Field is good there. Here are the numbers for you:

My Deck - Affects - 6 cards (all lands) affected out of 60 main deck (10%)

Miracles - Affects - 17/60 maindeck (28%)
Eldrazi - Affects - 10/60 maindeck (17%)
Grixis Delver - 16/60 maindeck (27%)
Elves - 20/60 maindeck (33%)
Shardless BUG - 20/60 maindeck (33%)
D&T - 23/60 maindeck (38%)


Like I said, you're not wrong, some of the interactions can create some inefficiencies. At the end of the day, though, they aren't symmetric and that's what this deck is looking to take advantage of to win.

I appreciate the discussion and hopefully you'll consider my reasoning.

[frogger42]

Thanks Fred-Bear! This is actually getting to be a substantial conversation here. My experience is obviously not with Stax with Armageddon - I'm not going to run it - but, I do have extensive experience with many flavors of Stax and also with a few Stompy builds.

I took a Wu(b) Stax to GP Louisville (or whatever the last Legacy GP was) and did better than 50th. Which is money. I forget which place it was exactly, but it's clearly a competitive deck I built. If you send a link with the top 50, I'll point out where I (and one of my friends) placed. Again, no Armageddon.

My white Stompy deck (which does run Geddon) I've got less experience with. It's more fun to play, but less consistent (no blue). I haven't jammed that at anything other than weeklies to I guess fairly decent success.

I say this to address your concern with my experience of the archetypes (and cards) in play. I also built UB Planeswalker Stax, though that was years ago. I'd give credit to those who helped, but I brewed it entirely in my LGS in about two years. It's definitely not a "European list," as some claim. Ugh.


Now, your points.
You mentioned playing against Nic Fit. I'm not going to retread on what I said about what makes Armageddon powerful - which cards you want to synergize with it - but note Nic Fit doesn't have those manasources. Geddon by itself is powerful enough against a deck that mana ramps through lands (its gameplan is multiple Veteran Explorers). Armageddon also single-handedly beats Miracles. You resolve one, they should scoop. Two, they absolutely scoop.

Mid range and control decks fear Geddon all on its own. Your taking out at least 4 of their own permanents, probably to your 2. And they can't recover. Aggro and Tempo decks don't care about Geddon - they only care about the taxing effects (Ghostly Prison, Suppression Field etc). Armageddon there isn't asymmetrical - you're both going to lose two lands, realistically.

Your example with Nic Fit is nice, but I think that it's not entirely accurate to bring that up and say "Here, Armageddon beats a deck." Burn splash Armageddon would also get there - again, it's more a control deck, highly invested in its manabase (specifically through lands!).


Your quote: "I'm not going to argue about it. White Stax loves Armageddon, thus the name of the thread and a lot of work done to create a framework for the archetype. We can agree to disagree if you're unwilling to see how it works in this deck."

It can work, but I'm saying it's certainly not optimal, or streamlined, for the strategy you're approaching. There are those MUs where Geddon will wreck your opponent (Shardless, too, is mid-range and hates Geddon). I'm saying this: you can do better.


Another quote: "I don't think your wrong, but you should try things in practice before you dismiss them based on a theory. By your logic, Force of Will is a bad card because it causes you to 2-for-1 yourself and Blood Moon (or Back to Basics) is terrible in the sideboard of Miracles because it screws up their own manabase."

I'm not going down this rabbit hole. You're obviously trying to bait me with "FoW is a bad card." I'm not going to discuss Miracles + Blood Moon, but I'll mention I did beat Miracles because of their own Blood Moon (it shuts down their fetches, and makes Top terrible). It actually affected their deck more, in that board state, than my (gee) red Stax deck. Muahaha...


Your discussion about Inventor's Fair... Actually, first Wasteland + Supp Field. Again, sub-optimal, as we both agree, but you often have a shot to activate it. Inventor's Fair - should that just be Darksteel Citadel?

Actually, let me frame my question with a hypothetical - if you run Crucible, why don't you run Fetchlands? In place of, or in addition to Flagstones? It's MUCH more synergistic with Crucible.

And the twin brother hypothetical - if you run Armageddon, why don't you run DS Citadel? Etc. etc...

Let me frame my argument that way. I think both cards, on paper, look like they work AMAZING together. But the cards they prefer to interact with are at odds with each other. It's not that Crucible doesn't take back your Armageddon'ed cards, it's that the land cards themselves either do or don't play nice with either one of these cards.

And my concern about that? Look at every other deck - Miracles, Shardless, Tempo, etc. All established decks don't have these inherent dis-synergies. Shardless doesn't run Daze or even Counterspell - it would LOVE to run Counterspell. Basically, it makes piloting your deck, even just Goldfishing it, complicated and awkward. You're already going to be trying to read board state, lines of play, maybe even your opponent a bit - with a deck build so awkwardly, you're going to be like "Dear God, I hope I draw something that's not going to blow my gamestate away." Delver etc, they draw cards that don't ever negatively impact their own board state. A deck built wrong does.

WHEW! That was a lot. But I put up a Geddon/ Angel Stompy deck up there. That's my list. Feel free to see what I'm doing there, that's what I'm talkin' 'bout.

(The Wu(b) Stax deck I'm not going to publicize. Nothing in it for me. But I'll say - W for Humility x4 (not Geddon) and U for consistency-sake.)

Thanks Fred_Bear!
-Frogger

[frogger42]

And let me say another thing - I play to learn. Specifically, I go to my LGS to brew, playtest my jank, and learn something from it. I'm here on these forums to learn, ultimately. And if someone asks, I'll tell them what I've learned.

Even some of the people at my LGS - usually they don't show often - don't understand this mindset. I'd feel bad if I cared, but honestly, their salt does make my victory that more savory.

Fred_Bear - there are obviously a LOT of people on here who come on these forums to argue. And spit and bite and all that stuff. I appreciate you're here not to do that, but to tell me what you've learned. That's how these things work.

Though if you do spit and bite and all that, I'd understand because you are, obviously, some sort of bear. Even the tamest of bears have natural instincts :p
-Frogger

[Curby]

if you run Crucible, why don't you run Fetchlands? In place of, or in addition to Flagstones? It's MUCH more synergistic with Crucible.

Simply saying it's true doesn't mean it's true. Here are some thoughts on why Flagstones belong in mono-white Geddon Stax, and fetchlands do not.

Fetches can be used to fill the graveyard, as seen in Burn. It can be used to fix mana and reset the topdeck, as seen in Miracles, Delver, etc. But we don't need these effects.

Secondly, fetches would hurt the deck, especially if replacing Flagstones. Fetchland decks are actually among the best prey of Wasteland/Geddon decks. If you run 8 fetches, 4 Wastelands, and 6-8 duals and basics in a typical greedy 3-color manabase, the ability of a Stax deck to force you to three mana sources (Trinisphere) and then blow up 3-4 lands (with Geddon) means they've taken out upwards of half of your deck's capability to produce colored mana. Compare to a deck with 18 basics, where blowing up 4 land still leaves 14 in the deck.

Smokestack is all about counting permanents in play. When you sac a Flagstones to 'stack, you get another permanent to use or sac the next turn. You've effectively broken the symmetry of Smokestack by getting a "free sacrifice." When you sac a fetch, basic or dual, you don't break symmetry because you don't get anything back. In fact, Flagstones along with Crucible is one of the best ways to sustain a 'stack at 2 counters. Fetches can't do that.

You could say that recurring fetches through Crucible can help us empty the deck of land so we only draw gas, but Flagstones can do that and more. Not only can you recur two Flagstones through Crucible to fetch more Plains, you can give them to Smokestack or Geddon to turn what might be considered symmetric cards firmly in our favor.

Lastly, Stax often hurts itself a lot via Ancient Tombs, and stabilizes or wins at under 5 life. Adding fetchlands to that reality would very likely lead to more losses, especially if the intention is to replay them through a Crucible for multiple activations per game.

As I started with, this is all about mono-white Geddon Stax. Given that you run multicolor Stax decks without Geddon, much of the above is not relevant. However, it further goes to show that mono-white Geddon Stax has many internal synergies and reinforcing interactions.

Hope that helps.

[Fred_Bear]

Frogger42,

I appreciate the conversation. I, too, like to come up with the information and, if you look at my posts from years ago in this thread, I've tested a lot of things in White Stax (and MUD Stax and Vintage Stax) and am pretty honest (direct) about what works and what doesn't. I'm very interested in what you ran at the GP. I was able to find Top 32 lists, but not Top 64. If you'll willing to share, PM me. I play only on MTGO anymore, so I can jam games and try things whenever...

I didn't mean to question your experience, but I'm hoping you can see my point - Armageddon works in Stax when you plan for it. You may not think it's optimal, but it is such a beating for most decks that it is very playable in the Stax shell. I've been re-reading this thread and the one on MTG Salvation and while the meta has changed a lot since the deck was introduced, there are some interesting things that can still be done.

Continued discussion...

I didn't point out the Nic Fit match to say Armageddon 'could' win, I was trying to explain that against a deck like that it's really your only out. Nothing else in White Stax could have kept up. He didn't care about Trinisphere, he was willing to sit behind my Ghostly Prison and wait until he wanted to Reclamation Sage it, and most of his abilities were triggered, so Suppression Field wasn't even that good. Armageddon plus any another card (lock piece), though, was a loss for him - it had to be a lock piece, though. Your point is well taken, Armageddon is a powerful card, especially against a ramp deck without counters, but it made that match-up playable.

I would agree with you that Armageddon shines in the Mid-range/Control matches, but I'd probably argue that it (combined with a tax effect) is just as valuable in the Aggro/Tempo match-ups. I think that's one of the reasons that people struggle with the Aggro/Tempo match-ups when piloting Stax and one of the things that catches the Aggro/Tempo pilots off guard - they focus on the wrong 'threats'. Armageddon is a nice threat to have on your side.

I'm not convinced that "you can do better". I think there are certainly different approaches, but I'm not convinced (without at least seeing a suggestion or three) that Armageddon is sub-optimal in this build. As I read and re-read these threads there are a lot of 'falsehoods' in the pages about consistency, understanding match-ups, understanding mulligans, etc. Armageddon helps this deck maintain reasonable match-ups versus most of the top decks.

Sorry if it seemed like I was baiting with the FoW comment, but it's very true. Looking at an individual card sometimes is narrow when evaluating it in the context of the deck. Armageddon won't always act as a 4-for-1 in this deck, but it doesn't need to. As I said, the interactions are 'complicated', not awkward. And, you are right, sometimes, you'll lose to it, but you were going to lose a lot of those games anyhow and it will sometimes give you a fighting shot at coming back...

Inventor's Fair - I'm still not sure it's 'right'. In games where I've activated it, I usually get Bottled Cloister game 1 and Crucible in game 2/3. It's typically win-more when you are actually activating it, so I could see it being just about anything else. The life gain is a nice kick for games where you die to your own Ancient Tomb, but I'm not sure it's necessary.

Fetchlands-Crucible - They are synergistic with Crucible, but fetches won't get Sol lands and fetches don't play nicely with Armageddon. If you drop Armageddon, I could see using fetches.

Darksteel Citadel - I tested this years ago and it really doesn't do anything for you.

Anti-Synergy - I'll probably say this wrong, but I think this is where a lot of people are confused on Stax. It took me a long time to get used to it. Developing your board (Stax player) is secondary to setting your opponent back. You'll have plenty of time to develop your position when your opponent just gets to draw-go with nothing to do. This is much more obvious (and maybe easier to understand) if you look at Vintage Stax lists. Rich Shay has been running a list lately on MTGO with 6 Mana Rocks AND Null Rod. Totally anti-synergistic, but it hinders the opponent worse than it does him. Is it awkward? Not at all. You have to know, understand, and stick to your gameplan - lock out the opponent and then win.

Again, I'd love to see your Wu(b) list because it's sounds very intriguing.



And let me say another thing - I play to learn. Specifically, I go to my LGS to brew, playtest my jank, and learn something from it. I'm here on these forums to learn, ultimately. And if someone asks, I'll tell them what I've learned.

Even some of the people at my LGS - usually they don't show often - don't understand this mindset. I'd feel bad if I cared, but honestly, their salt does make my victory that more savory.

Fred_Bear - there are obviously a LOT of people on here who come on these forums to argue. And spit and bite and all that stuff. I appreciate you're here not to do that, but to tell me what you've learned. That's how these things work.

Though if you do spit and bite and all that, I'd understand because you are, obviously, some sort of bear. Even the tamest of bears have natural instincts :p
-Frogger

I, too, play to learn and am also willing to help and describe my experiences. I don't often talk in the abstract (why I recommend testing if you don't believe something I say) and prefer to use actual experience and 'data' from testing. I've spent a lot of time playing Armageddon Stax and could re-hatch the entire experience, but most of it is in this forum (I'm one of the guys with linked posts in the Primer - though I had to make a new account after being away for so long). Hopefully, we can continue a constructive conversation.

[frogger42]

Firstly, to kirbysdl - It was a hypothetical. I used both those questions (about fetches / DS Citadel) to help frame what I'm saying here. I didn't really need the questions to be answered, but I wanted to highlight what I'm pointing out about Crucible in a deck, vs Armageddon in a deck.

Also, you can think about it this way - a Crucible deck always wants to be making land drops. It's how it gains board position. (Except when you have to play around Price of Progress - just quick aside.) It wants ALL the lands, yes.

An Armageddon deck only wants to ramp up to 4 mana - any more lands, and it starts losing the asymmetry of its hoser. It doesn't want to over extend into its own Geddon by, say, wiping 5 of its lands. That just doesn't make sense. (Though you may want to guarantee resolving Geddon through a Daze, but that's another quick aside.)

And Fred_Bear - I just pm'ed you a list. That's what I'm talking about. White is full of mega-hosers, and with access to just about anything you want in a hoser... well, Stax is a land-based deck. Why run a land hoser?

Stompy, though, only needs to ramp up to 3-4. It's happy to lose its lands, even symmetrically, because it doesn't particularly lose its board position through a Geddon.


I'm just bringing up all these points because, while I understand the history of Geddon Stax - it's a crazy different field from 10 years ago. No more Landstill (Geddon), Goblins is terribad (Ghostly Prison), Abrupt Decay has been printed for tempo decks (breaking the invincibility of Chalice vs Tempo). And a LOT of newer cards - in particular, Planeswalkers - have been printed since the original Geddon Stax. History aside, I think we should put history aside. People still don't know the difference between Stompy and Stax - which is great, it's an advantage to the player who does. "Ancient Tomb?! This guy's on Stompy" - good, get wrekt by my Humility, you fool.

And Ghostfire - I think you should consider whether you want Geddon or Humility/Moat. Humility is better than Moat; Moat is just clearly pimper. Then build your deck accordingly. All three hosers are amazing with a Sol-land manabase.

[Curby]

Firstly, to kirbysdl - It was a hypothetical. I used both those questions (about fetches / DS Citadel) to help frame what I'm saying here. I didn't really need the questions to be answered, but I wanted to highlight what I'm pointing out about Crucible in a deck, vs Armageddon in a deck.

Ok, but I'm not just answering your question. I'm disagreeing with your conclusion. You seem to be saying that fetchlands work better than Flagstones in Stax. At least in the realm of mono-white Geddon Stax, I disagree.


I'm just bringing up all these points because, while I understand the history of Geddon Stax - it's a crazy different field from 10 years ago.

It's definitely true that the meta has evolved, and the old Stax lists aren't putting up results anymore. We should put aside ideas that don't work to get to more competitive ideas in the current meta.

Ultimately, I'm mostly taking issue with your apparent belief that Geddon doesn't have, and never should have had, a place in Stax. If you truly understand the history of the deck, I can't see how you'd believe that. Geddon Stax isn't just what people call the deck: it's a sign of the importance and power that Geddon has in this shell. We might just have to agree to disagree on this point though. Anyway.

[frogger42]

It's definitely true that the meta has evolved, and the old Stax lists aren't putting up results anymore. We should put aside ideas that don't work to get to more competitive ideas in the current meta.


Well, I'm here now. Let's go brew one. I don't have a mono-White Stax decklist in mind, but if you don't mind, put one up and I'll help brew it with you?
I mean, as much as I appreciate the back and forth, let's get practical and build something here. That's what these forums are about.

I guess the obvious ground rules - attack the deck, not the person, blah blah blah.
-Swap one-for-one on cards, as best as possible. Try to include very brief reasoning on why the swap (or swaps)
-Bonus - try to limit the "this included card is a meta choice" because I feel we could spend all week arguing what the meta is. I think we should build a solid shell first, something more in a vacuum, then worry later about the meta and if the deck is a good choice currently.
-(And obv a no-cash limit, though I think we probably don't need Moat)

Also, don't bother with a SB. My specialty is more in building manabases, but I'll do my best to suggest better spells. SB I think is something you figure in your current meta, anyway.

You want to go for it?

[Fred_Bear]

An Armageddon deck only wants to ramp up to 4 mana - any more lands, and it starts losing the asymmetry of its hoser. It doesn't want to over extend into its own Geddon by, say, wiping 5 of its lands. That just doesn't make sense. (Though you may want to guarantee resolving Geddon through a Daze, but that's another quick aside.)

And Fred_Bear - I just pm'ed you a list. That's what I'm talking about. White is full of mega-hosers, and with access to just about anything you want in a hoser... well, Stax is a land-based deck. Why run a land hoser?

Stompy, though, only needs to ramp up to 3-4. It's happy to lose its lands, even symmetrically, because it doesn't particularly lose its board position through a Geddon.


I'm just bringing up all these points because, while I understand the history of Geddon Stax - it's a crazy different field from 10 years ago. No more Landstill (Geddon), Goblins is terribad (Ghostly Prison), Abrupt Decay has been printed for tempo decks (breaking the invincibility of Chalice vs Tempo). And a LOT of newer cards - in particular, Planeswalkers - have been printed since the original Geddon Stax. History aside, I think we should put history aside. People still don't know the difference between Stompy and Stax - which is great, it's an advantage to the player who does. "Ancient Tomb?! This guy's on Stompy" - good, get wrekt by my Humility, you fool.


I think this is part of the issue. Armageddon Stax isn't a 'land-based' deck. It's a permanent-based deck, mostly artifacts and enchantments. Just as you pointed out previously, you run a land-hoser to beat other control and mid-range decks who rely on their lands to play. You can win from behind a lock and that may or may not require lands depending on where you are in the game.

And, you are right, the game has changed and the meta has evolved. Where there were once Goblins, there are now Eldrazi and Elves. Where there was once Threshold, there is now Delver and Shardless. Where there was once Landstill, there is now Miracles. I started tinkering again with this deck because I think there are enough similarities that could make it viable with some updates. Plus, it's a deck I enjoy playing...

[frogger42]

Ghostfire - here's how I'd rebuild your deck:


2 sanctum prelate - cut
4 Magus of the tabernacle - Elspeth, KE x4

3 Armageddon - Humility x4

4 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring - 4 Batterskull
1 sylvan library - cut

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds - +1, for 4x
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere - Cut

2 City of Traitors +2, 4x
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of trokair - 3 Fetch instead
1 Ghostly Quarter - Cut
1 Horizon Canopy - Cut
1 Karakas - +2, 3x
4 Mishra's Factory
5 Plains
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell - Cut
3 Wasteland +1

(59 cards, one slot open)

So here's the decklist I'm proposing (mono-W):

4 Elspeth, KE

4 Humility

4 Ghostly Prison
4 Batterskull

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Windswept Heath
3 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factory
5 Plains
4 Wasteland
+ 1 Idyllic Tutor

Some things to note - I'm 4x out a lot of things, because you have no filtering/cantrips/tutoring. Karakas is a necessary evil because of Thalia - she slows everything down in your deck. Idyllic Tutor is miserably bad, but... it fetches Humility. I wouldn't buy it just yet.

I'm going to break this out of mono-W a bit. Do you have access to Savannahs?

4 Elspeth, KE

4 Humility

4 Sylvan Library
4 Batterskull

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Windswept Heath
3 Karakas
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Plains
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland

The biggest problem with Stax is a lack of consistency. Sylvan Library is pretty good here, in that it gives you mondo filtering, plus isn't a mana-sink (unlike SD Top, and Scroll Rack). 4 filtering cards isn't really enough to make your deck consistent, but it's a start. Idyllic Tutor also becomes powerful in this build because you get more shuffle effects with your Sylvan Library. (4 Smokestack -> Idyllic, easy peasy). Ideally, though, you'd have 4x of something else that filters / tutors more generously. It just doesn't exist in White or Green.

Thoughts?

[Fred_Bear]

I'm going to break this out of mono-W a bit. Do you have access to Savannahs?

4 Elspeth, KE

4 Humility

4 Sylvan Library
4 Batterskull

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Windswept Heath
3 Karakas
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Plains
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland

The biggest problem with Stax is a lack of consistency. Sylvan Library is pretty good here, in that it gives you mondo filtering, plus isn't a mana-sink (unlike SD Top, and Scroll Rack). 4 filtering cards isn't really enough to make your deck consistent, but it's a start. Idyllic Tutor also becomes powerful in this build because you get more shuffle effects with your Sylvan Library. (4 Smokestack -> Idyllic, easy peasy). Ideally, though, you'd have 4x of something else that filters / tutors more generously. It just doesn't exist in White or Green.

Thoughts?

It seems interesting, but I think you might be a bit slow (Eldrazi and Elves will go pretty fast if you don't 'curve' into Humility fast enough) and prone to mana flood. 32 mana sources is a lot. And, in my opinion, several of the 4-ofs could be reduced without hurting the consistency (especially with Library and Fetches).

3 Elspeth, KE

4 Humility
3 Ghostly Prison (Moat if price is no object)

3 Sylvan Library
2 Batterskull

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Inventors' Fair or Buried Ruin
3 Windswept Heath
2 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Plains
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland

I'd still like to cut another mana source, but I'm not sure which one. I also feel like it needs another 'lock' piece to force board interaction and slow the early-to-mid turns, but I'm not sure without playing a bit.

[frogger42]

It seems interesting, but I think you might be a bit slow (Eldrazi and Elves will go pretty fast if you don't 'curve' into Humility fast enough) and prone to mana flood. 32 mana sources is a lot. And, in my opinion, several of the 4-ofs could be reduced without hurting the consistency (especially with Library and Fetches).

3 Elspeth, KE

4 Humility
3 Ghostly Prison (Moat if price is no object)

3 Sylvan Library
2 Batterskull

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Inventors' Fair or Buried Ruin
3 Windswept Heath
2 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Plains
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland

I'd still like to cut another mana source, but I'm not sure which one. I also feel like it needs another 'lock' piece to force board interaction and slow the early-to-mid turns, but I'm not sure without playing a bit.

I think 30 - including Mox Diamonds - is as low as you can go. My playstyle with Stax has been - better to manaflood, than be manascrewed. Everything you cast is a haymaker, and even keeping a 6 land hand is fine - you'll be able to cast everything you draw. Keeping a 2-lander is impossible with this deck - unless it's a Sol Land + Fetch + Crucible. You have to keep making land drops the first, at least, five turns.

A few things about your proposed list - Sylvan Library is the only filtering in the whole deck. I would definitely keep it at 4 - Stax has no other way to find anything.
Other than Inventor's Fair. Good catch, there. Playtesting will show if there are enough artis for it to be useful.
Be careful about your colored sources. You have 17 White, which is fine for the WW spells. I jammed too many Horizon Canopies to get enough G for Sylvan - which is tricky, yes. Your list only has 11 G sources - consider that Delver decks run 13-14 U sources for their blue spells (the main engine of their decks). I think we should aim for 13 G sources if we want to splash green. Also, with 13-14 G sources, Choke becomes a hot option in the SB, for later consideration.

I think maybe 2 Canopy, and 2 Stirring Wildwood (which also synergizes with Humility) instead of the 4 Canopies in my list.

And I think Ghostly Prison instead of Moat. Both are fine, but... think of it this way. Humility trashes the big fatties of the format (Gurmag Angler, Tarmogoyf, cheated Griselbrands). But it doesn't deal well with Tokens. Prison deals with tokens, elves, etc.
Also, you need Elspeth to get through your own Moat. Batterskull is kinda your "Moat" on the ground, makes ground attacks generally unprofitable. Just my reasoning there.

Optimally, you'd have 8-10 filtering and tutoring effects. Not sure what else we could run in Wg to make this deck consistent.

(I think 4 Skulls is too much, but Batterskull + Sylvan = Dark Confidant, hahaha...)

[frogger42]

Actually, about Idyllic Tutor - it fetches out Filtering, Prison Pieces, and potentially, can it find a legacy-playable finisher? Something like Myth Realized but it has to play better with Chalice, obviously. What are the options for enchantment-based finishers under Humility?

EDIT: Awakening Zone x1?

EDIT 2:
4 Elspeth, KE

4 Humility
4 Sylvan Library
1 Awakening Zone
1 Ghostly Prison

3 Batterskull
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond

4 Idyllic Tutor

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Windswept Heath
3 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Stirring Wildwood
3 Plains
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland

14 finishers - significantly easier not to go to time than the 5 finishers in your list, Fred_Bear. Also, plenty of SB options with WG enchantments to choose from. Good place to start? (Awakening Zone could also be... Opalescence, muahaha...)

[Fred_Bear]

I think 30 - including Mox Diamonds - is as low as you can go. My playstyle with Stax has been - better to manaflood, than be manascrewed. Everything you cast is a haymaker, and even keeping a 6 land hand is fine - you'll be able to cast everything you draw. Keeping a 2-lander is impossible with this deck - unless it's a Sol Land + Fetch + Crucible. You have to keep making land drops the first, at least, five turns.

A few things about your proposed list - Sylvan Library is the only filtering in the whole deck. I would definitely keep it at 4 - Stax has no other way to find anything.
Other than Inventor's Fair. Good catch, there. Playtesting will show if there are enough artis for it to be useful.
Be careful about your colored sources. You have 17 White, which is fine for the WW spells. I jammed too many Horizon Canopies to get enough G for Sylvan - which is tricky, yes. Your list only has 11 G sources - consider that Delver decks run 13-14 U sources for their blue spells (the main engine of their decks). I think we should aim for 13 G sources if we want to splash green. Also, with 13-14 G sources, Choke becomes a hot option in the SB, for later consideration.

I think maybe 2 Canopy, and 2 Stirring Wildwood (which also synergizes with Humility) instead of the 4 Canopies in my list.

And I think Ghostly Prison instead of Moat. Both are fine, but... think of it this way. Humility trashes the big fatties of the format (Gurmag Angler, Tarmogoyf, cheated Griselbrands). But it doesn't deal well with Tokens. Prison deals with tokens, elves, etc.
Also, you need Elspeth to get through your own Moat. Batterskull is kinda your "Moat" on the ground, makes ground attacks generally unprofitable. Just my reasoning there.

Optimally, you'd have 8-10 filtering and tutoring effects. Not sure what else we could run in Wg to make this deck consistent.

(I think 4 Skulls is too much, but Batterskull + Sylvan = Dark Confidant, hahaha...)


I'm not sure I'd go all the way down to 28, but I could see testing at 29. I understand your point, but, to me, one of the biggest inconsistencies of Stax is it's own ability to fizzle either through flood or poor draws for the match-up, so I tend to try and minimize lands and maximize 'threats'. I think starting at 30 is reasonable and 29 may not be a significant drop-off. I've not spent a lot of time on the color splash, so I'm not 100% one way or the other, yet.

Sylvan Library is the only draw/filter. Thing is - if I'm not drawing it, I'm drawing something else I need and I really, really only want to see 1. I agree that we want to keep the G count high, but I'm not sure 11 is really too low. It gives us a 78% chance at G in the opener and 86% by turn 3. Adding one more souce only adds a 3% and two more sources about 5.5%. Until I playtest a little, Library is just a tool, not a necessity. [Delver is a bad example since they basically can't keep a hand without an island in it - we should totally be able to keep a hand without access to G]

Stirring Wildwood definitely deserves some thought if we do need to up the G count. I wouldn't play more than 1, though, as this deck will be hard pressed use a tapped land too early. It would make a nice 5 or 6 drop.

Ghostly Prison, I think, is reasonable because it will slow the opponent's development. Moat won't. Moat will shut off the attacks until a solution comes, but they can build as they plan for any out they may have. I'd love to be able to jam Ensnaring Bridge, but it's useless without a Smokestack to eventually remove it. I think the nice thing about Moat is the interaction with Elspeth and Humility, lifting an 8/8 Batterskull into battle is usually an autowin.

Two potential draws would be Sword of Fire and Ice and Bottled Cloister. Bottled Cloister usually has to be boarded out, though, so you just have to plan for that.


Actually, about Idyllic Tutor - it fetches out Filtering, Prison Pieces, and potentially, can it find a legacy-playable finisher? Something like Myth Realized but it has to play better with Chalice, obviously. What are the options for enchantment-based finishers under Humility?

EDIT: Awakening Zone x1?

EDIT 2:
4 Elspeth, KE

4 Humility
4 Sylvan Library
1 Awakening Zone
1 Ghostly Prison

3 Batterskull
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond

4 Idyllic Tutor

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Windswept Heath
3 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Stirring Wildwood
3 Plains
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland

14 finishers - significantly easier not to go to time than the 5 finishers in your list, Fred_Bear. Also, plenty of SB options with WG enchantments to choose from. Good place to start? (Awakening Zone could also be... Opalescence, muahaha...)

Too 'cute'. Awakening Zone is junk. Idyllic Tutor is also far too slow. Whatever you get would have to win the game or completely lock out your opponent and there isn't an enchantment for that. My list is light on finishers, but that's because inevitability is fine when you're behind a wall... I may try this as the starting point:


3 Elspeth, KE

4 Humility
3 Ghostly Prison (Moat if price is no object)

3 Sylvan Library
2 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Inventors' Fair or Buried Ruin
3 Windswept Heath
2 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Stirring Wildwood
3 Wasteland

6 draw/filter cards and 6 'finishers' - Let me jam a couple matches and see how it feels...

[frogger42]

Sylvan Library is the only draw/filter. Thing is - if I'm not drawing it, I'm drawing something else I need and I really, really only want to see 1. I agree that we want to keep the G count high, but I'm not sure 11 is really too low. It gives us a 78% chance at G in the opener and 86% by turn 3. Adding one more souce only adds a 3% and two more sources about 5.5%. Until I playtest a little, Library is just a tool, not a necessity. [Delver is a bad example since they basically can't keep a hand without an island in it - we should totally be able to keep a hand without access to G]

No, that's a good point. You still jam most of your spells without G. But also, if you have Sylvan in your opening hand, you absolutely want to jam it right away. Keeping a Sylvan in hand for 2-3 turns with no way to cast it seems like a miserable way to lose.


Ghostly Prison, I think, is reasonable because it will slow the opponent's development. Moat won't. Moat will shut off the attacks until a solution comes, but they can build as they plan for any out they may have. I'd love to be able to jam Ensnaring Bridge, but it's useless without a Smokestack to eventually remove it. I think the nice thing about Moat is the interaction with Elspeth and Humility, lifting an 8/8 Batterskull into battle is usually an autowin.

Moat shuts down your 'Skull, making Elspeth your only out. I'd think Ghostly Prison would do enough work, is lighter on the mana, and lets you gain 4-5 life off a 'Skull for your Sylvan, too.


Two potential draws would be Sword of Fire and Ice and Bottled Cloister. Bottled Cloister usually has to be boarded out, though, so you just have to plan for that.

Bottled Cloister sounds okay. SoFI, though, you only run effectively 5 creatures to suit up - 2 Skulls and 3 Elspeth. I suspect it'll be sitting around unequipped for a long time, and not have an immediate effect.


Too 'cute'. Awakening Zone is junk. Idyllic Tutor is also far too slow. Whatever you get would have to win the game or completely lock out your opponent and there isn't an enchantment for that. My list is light on finishers, but that's because inevitability is fine when you're behind a wall...

TRUE! Zone is junk. But I think it merits a slot of testing. You get a 1/1 each turn for 3 mana - it's comparable to Elspeth's best ability, the token generation (and a lot tougher to kill/Revoke/Pithing Needle). Idyllic Tutor, though... I think I disagree here. Stax decks durdle a lot and throw up sluggish prison pieces. The strategy generally gives you a turn or two to tutor something up, if you have a quick prison piece established to slow your opponent down. I've run Intuition to fetch pieces (which, yes, is far superior to Idyllic Tutor), but Tutor mostly makes you jam 8x Humility. The fact that it can also fetch filtering (Sylvan) or a win con (please, something better than Awakening Zone...) makes your deck a lot more consistent in what it's trying to do. My playtesting in a different Stax tells me that a 3 mana instant speed tutor def gets there; I think a Sorcery tutor deserves a shot.

C'mon. 8x Humility.

Give your deck a spin! Let us know how it goes. I tend to max out playsets of stuff at first, just so I get to see them more often and see how happy I am with them (or not).

[ghostfire86]

Ok so this is the first I've had a chance to get on. I've been busy getting ready for Christmas with my children so haven't had time to hit the LGS for testing. Ive done some shadow games to get a feel for whats going on with the card draws, and opening hands. The core of the deck feels nice at the moment just in the flow, but the Sanctum Prelate honestly feel clunky at best and at worst its not worth the deck to test officially. On paper he looked nice but in practice it never hits at a descent time. Ive considered taking one out for a second sylvan library and the other spot is....questionable.

Like I said before I am working on budget. Mostly because I dropped what I needed to for completing the final upgrades to my mono black Pox deck which runs 2 nether void, 1 chains of mephistopheles, and 1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale mainboard. The sideboard now has 1 the abyss, and 1 chains of mephistopheles. Lots of time and lots of money spent, but worth it.

Stax is my newest endeavor to build and master. Like I said before I really like prison stax feel and armageddon is still nice for the price range Im working with right now and works with my own play style. Eventually I want to build towards a Wg Dutch, humility/moat. Elspeth, knight-Errant is definitely a key card for such a build to amplify the deck, however I'm hoping that by the time I get to placing the funds further into the build they will have something more effective than batterskull and by that I mean something that has flying built into it so we can work better with moat on the field. skinwing is close but far from what the design needs. This is just me dreaming.

Due to the prison style of the deck has anyone ever tried luminarch ascension? I think it may be to slow.

suppression field would devastate so many decks in my area's meta and is cheap to get my hands onto.

Has anyone attempted exploration or oracle of mul daya?

A mention was made about dropping ghost quarter, but I think it since so many decks in my area area mana greedy there is little chance of having any draw back and gives me the ability to hit my own Flagstones of Trokair and pull mana in the event things don't play out well on the draw. horizon canopy is a test slot for now. Ideally on paper it should be nice, but in play I have concerns that one draw may not be enough and then I realize I'm being greedy.

I prefer to brew a lot on any decks that I build, even if they are decks with known designs.

[Fred_Bear]

Ok so this is the first I've had a chance to get on. I've been busy getting ready for Christmas with my children so haven't had time to hit the LGS for testing. Ive done some shadow games to get a feel for whats going on with the card draws, and opening hands. The core of the deck feels nice at the moment just in the flow, but the Sanctum Prelate honestly feel clunky at best and at worst its not worth the deck to test officially. On paper he looked nice but in practice it never hits at a descent time. Ive considered taking one out for a second sylvan library and the other spot is....questionable.

Like I said before I am working on budget. Mostly because I dropped what I needed to for completing the final upgrades to my mono black Pox deck which runs 2 nether void, 1 chains of mephistopheles, and 1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale mainboard. The sideboard now has 1 the abyss, and 1 chains of mephistopheles. Lots of time and lots of money spent, but worth it.

Stax is my newest endeavor to build and master. Like I said before I really like prison stax feel and armageddon is still nice for the price range Im working with right now and works with my own play style. Eventually I want to build towards a Wg Dutch, humility/moat. Elspeth, knight-Errant is definitely a key card for such a build to amplify the deck, however I'm hoping that by the time I get to placing the funds further into the build they will have something more effective than batterskull and by that I mean something that has flying built into it so we can work better with moat on the field. skinwing is close but far from what the design needs. This is just me dreaming.

Due to the prison style of the deck has anyone ever tried luminarch ascension? I think it may be to slow.

suppression field would devastate so many decks in my area's meta and is cheap to get my hands onto.

Has anyone attempted exploration or oracle of mul daya?

A mention was made about dropping ghost quarter, but I think it since so many decks in my area area mana greedy there is little chance of having any draw back and gives me the ability to hit my own Flagstones of Trokair and pull mana in the event things don't play out well on the draw. horizon canopy is a test slot for now. Ideally on paper it should be nice, but in play I have concerns that one draw may not be enough and then I realize I'm being greedy.

I prefer to brew a lot on any decks that I build, even if they are decks with known designs.


I don't like Prelate in the maindeck, but post-board against Abrupt Decay decks, he's simply better than a Chalice at 2. Chalice is much weaker than it once was. Between Cavern of Souls and Abrupt Decay, I've literally started boarding it out in some matches.

Dutch Stax is a reasonable goal and working towards it on a budget is reasonable. I think the G/W build that we've been discussing is very much in line with that. It could have some benefit to not relying as much on Elspeth (you need his second ability) as much or requiring both WW enchantments for a lock.

Luminarch Aschension - maybe. I have an aversion to cards which don't really do anything on their own to advance you. Remember, you play Ancient Tomb and need to use it a lot of turns.

Exploration - you don't play enough lands (in my opinion) or draw enough cards.

Oracle of Mul Daya - I think it's too fragile and doesn't really do enough, especially alongside Armageddon.

Ghost Quarter is sub-optimal, but playable. I would not play as a 4-of because it's not a Strip Mine until very late against most decks. And while you can play it on your Flagstones, there is really no reason or advantage gained by it. The Flagstones is much, much more valuable in play during an Armageddon, so the only times you would gain an advantage - you already have one (i.e. Crucible or Armageddon).

Horizon Canopy is one draw, but with Crucible, it's many more. Stax has the ability to stall and Canopy is a small way to lessen that blow.

Suppression Field is a beating against most decks in the format. Just in fetches, it will slow down most decks. It's especially gratifying to actually Waste a fetch...



On the last G/W build I posted: I've only played a game or two and it stinks that you have 0 outs against a resolved Planeswalker game 1 and I sided Banishing Light, but without one in your opening hand, you are still vulnerable to it. I'll try a couple more, but I think you need a maindeck answer to Jace or Lilliana.

[frogger42]

Like I said before I am working on budget. Mostly because I dropped what I needed to for completing the final upgrades to my mono black Pox deck which runs 2 nether void, 1 chains of mephistopheles, and 1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale mainboard. The sideboard now has 1 the abyss, and 1 chains of mephistopheles. Lots of time and lots of money spent, but worth it.

ACK! I'm actually selling most of my stuff out, including 1 Nether Void, 4 Abyss, even a Guardian Beast, hahaha. Well, if you know anyone who's looking for almost any legacy card (all I'm keeping is Stax) send them my way!


Stax is my newest endeavor to build and master. Like I said before I really like prison stax feel and armageddon is still nice for the price range Im working with right now and works with my own play style. Eventually I want to build towards a Wg Dutch, humility/moat. Elspeth, knight-Errant is definitely a key card for such a build to amplify the deck, however I'm hoping that by the time I get to placing the funds further into the build they will have something more effective than batterskull and by that I mean something that has flying built into it so we can work better with moat on the field. skinwing is close but far from what the design needs. This is just me dreaming.

Humility and Moat are really awkward in the same deck. Elspeth is just about the only legacy-playable finisher I can think of that wants to attack through it. Faerie Conclave also works, but hasn't really been effective since Landstill ran it in 2005. As you noted, you can always find a card to synergize with whatever board state you want, it's just whether that card is effective on its own. (And you know Skinwing isn't.)
Otherwise, Humility and Moat - at the same time - you basically need to dome your opponent directly, or The Cheese Stands Alone him/her, some alt win con. YUCK.

All your card choices can be addressed with respect to a proposed list. All of them are certainly legacy-playable, but it's also a matter if they jive well together.

For instance: Exploration doesn't work with Chalice @ 1, one of your stronger plays.

Oracle of Mul Daya doesn't work with Humility, the best creature hoser in the format, so don't run the 2 together (or basically you card disadvantage yourself).

And Suppression Field doesn't work with Planeswalkers, Fetchlands, and a lot of the other utility stuff Stax generally likes to activate, turn after turn.

Just be cognizant of how your prison pieces affect your own ways of getting ahead. The less negative interaction, the better off you are, obviously. I think Fred_Bear and I shot up a couple Stax decks that don't cross their own wires, and those are probably some decent places to get started in just seeing what we mean.

If you really want to jam Moat x4 - I'd suggest not going Humility, and doing something like Baneslayer Angel or possibly Gisela the Whatever, though Gisela can be bolted and Karakas'ed. I think those win cons are easy to adapt to either Moat or Humility in mono-white, but doing both gets super... tricky.

But don't dump a lot of money (Moat x4) on Stax just quite yet. I've playtested a LOT of different styles of Stax, and you really want to solve its biggest problem: it's inherently a topdeck kind of deck. Most lists run almost no filtering or tutoring. Basically, the majority of decklists have no consistency to them, you just jam whatever pieces you have in hand and pray they affect your opponent's board state. (Which is not always the case.)

Burn and Elves don't need to solve this, really. Everything in burn is redundant; almost everything in Elves is a dude. Stax, you'll find, everything is pretty pretty pretty different, and some pieces are terrible against Delver, some are terrible against Miracles. It's all over the board, haha. You optimize the deck by finding what you need, when the MU calls for it.

Does that help?

[frogger42]

On the last G/W build I posted: I've only played a game or two and it stinks that you have 0 outs against a resolved Planeswalker game 1 and I sided Banishing Light, but without one in your opening hand, you are still vulnerable to it. I'll try a couple more, but I think you need a maindeck answer to Jace or Lilliana.

I just saw this, and I definitely want to address it. Stax gets WRECKED by planeswalkers - you give them a ton of turns to keep activating.

In my opinion and experience, the best way to beat Planeswalkers is not to be reactive (wait to see a PW'er, then Banishing Light it) but to be proactive. That is, have a high enough threat density that you force your opponent to need the planeswalker just to keep up with you. Find ways to put pressure on their life total, too, and then Jace won't be fatesealing you to death, he'll be bouncing your germ tokens while you house him with Elspeth.

I think it's fair to run at least 10 effective win-cons (including things like Idyllic Tutor -> some decent win con) because you ultimately need to win the game somehow, not just salt your opponent to death.

I only use Banishing Light to blow out Show and Tell strategies. It's insane there, a 2-for-1. Just find something that Jace/Liliana doesn't really want to deal with. ie Elspeth, etc. And if you run filtering and tutoring, diversify your threats (run fatties, run weenies) so you can attack your opponent with the optimal threat. That's what keeps Grixis, Elves, everything else competitive! And yes, a proper Stax is a competitive deck.

[Curby]

I think an Exploration-type effect could work just fine to recur Wastelands, Flagstones/fetches, and Canopy through Crucible. The bigger problem I see with Exploration as a card is the cost of 1. If we had a Cavern of Souls for Enchantments and Artifacts, Stax would be so much better. :tongue:

[non-inflammable]

I've always had a love for stax and someone said something awhile back about our own ancient tombs hurting us...
i give you peace of mind, literally...

4 peace of mind
4 ensnaring bridge
4 sea gate wreckage
throw in 2 or 3 riftstone portal for giggles...

[Curby]

Sure, but my sig. Those are cards that work well together, but they don't make a deck. Can you propose a list?

[Fred_Bear]

I just saw this, and I definitely want to address it. Stax gets WRECKED by planeswalkers - you give them a ton of turns to keep activating.

In my opinion and experience, the best way to beat Planeswalkers is not to be reactive (wait to see a PW'er, then Banishing Light it) but to be proactive. That is, have a high enough threat density that you force your opponent to need the planeswalker just to keep up with you. Find ways to put pressure on their life total, too, and then Jace won't be fatesealing you to death, he'll be bouncing your germ tokens while you house him with Elspeth.

I think it's fair to run at least 10 effective win-cons (including things like Idyllic Tutor -> some decent win con) because you ultimately need to win the game somehow, not just salt your opponent to death.

I only use Banishing Light to blow out Show and Tell strategies. It's insane there, a 2-for-1. Just find something that Jace/Liliana doesn't really want to deal with. ie Elspeth, etc. And if you run filtering and tutoring, diversify your threats (run fatties, run weenies) so you can attack your opponent with the optimal threat. That's what keeps Grixis, Elves, everything else competitive! And yes, a proper Stax is a competitive deck.


Stax does get wrecked by unanswered planeswalkers, no doubt. There is almost no way to combat a resolved Jace or, worse, a Liliana short of Banishing Light/O-Ring. I don't think increasing your 'win' conditions, though, is as effective because it dilutes your Prison versus other decks. If your focus is going to be adding threats, I think MUD or Stompy is a more efficient approach. That's probably where my play style/philosophy differs from yours.

When playing Stax, priority 1 is to slow/lock your opponent. This is ultimately why I prefer 2-5 win conditions, typically diversified (i.e. a manland, a creature, and a planeswalker) as opposed to 10-14 win conditions with 'consistency', i.e. 4-ofs. If I establish a lock, I typically have inevitability that will win. Online I have to deal with a chess clock, and don't have to call a judge for slow play - the opponent can either concede to the lock or try to force me to waste my clock while I attack him 10 times with Magus or 5 times with a Flying Soldier or Batterskull... In paper, call a judge if you are worried about losing to time... I've a lot of times established a lock with Chalice at 1, Trinisphere, Crucible, and a Smokestack at 1 which gets kept in place even against an empty board just passing turn after turn while I find my win condition. It sounds slow, but a win is a win, right?

If I'm going to use a 'win' condition in the form of an enchantment (searchable by Idyllic Tutor), why not just run Enchantress? After playing the G/W deck a few times, I think that's the thing, Enchantress is probably a better G/W enchantment-prison deck and has better synergy. And that's where you want to be - with the individual pieces interacting to help one another.

For a Legacy 'Stax' deck, I think it's just like Vintage Shops, the lock is more important than the Smokestack (Shops plays 0 and more recent 'Stax' lists play 2-3). For now, I'm going back to the Armageddon-core of the deck and the list I posted earlier to see where that is lacking... So far, I find it's got good game and three Suppression Field plus three Banishing Lights really slows down decks relying on planeswalkers.

[frogger42]

Stax does get wrecked by unanswered planeswalkers, no doubt. There is almost no way to combat a resolved Jace or, worse, a Liliana short of Banishing Light/O-Ring. I don't think increasing your 'win' conditions, though, is as effective because it dilutes your Prison versus other decks. If your focus is going to be adding threats, I think MUD or Stompy is a more efficient approach. That's probably where my play style/philosophy differs from yours.

When playing Stax, priority 1 is to slow/lock your opponent. This is ultimately why I prefer 2-5 win conditions, typically diversified (i.e. a manland, a creature, and a planeswalker) as opposed to 10-14 win conditions with 'consistency', i.e. 4-ofs. If I establish a lock, I typically have inevitability that will win. Online I have to deal with a chess clock, and don't have to call a judge for slow play - the opponent can either concede to the lock or try to force me to waste my clock while I attack him 10 times with Magus or 5 times with a Flying Soldier or Batterskull... In paper, call a judge if you are worried about losing to time... I've a lot of times established a lock with Chalice at 1, Trinisphere, Crucible, and a Smokestack at 1 which gets kept in place even against an empty board just passing turn after turn while I find my win condition. It sounds slow, but a win is a win, right?

So I took this Stax deck to 9th place - didn't crack T8, but I made like $50 at the time:

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_planeswalker_stax_wi.html

It runs 8 PW'ers, 1 "manland", and an extra 7 ways to tutor for either prison pieces, or win cons. The deck I found to be powerful not because I locked my opponent out, but because I was able to gain a foothold with my prison pieces (The Abyss, Chalice) and finish the game out.

I think Idyllic Tutor is fine - it's both a prison piece (Humility) and a win con (Awakening Zone for now) and is a bit slower, but so flexible for this strategy.

The list I pm'ed you does the same thing - like 8 win cons, and a ton of tutor effects that have the potential to find win cons.

After you imprison someone, you still have to close the game. We both concede that Planeswalkers run rampant against Stax, because they have so many turns to potentially activate. Again, not a problem if you have a good plan to close the game. Imprisoning your opponent is not the same as actually winning. That to me is priority #1, and imprisoning is just a way for you to gain board control in doing so.


If I'm going to use a 'win' condition in the form of an enchantment (searchable by Idyllic Tutor), why not just run Enchantress? After playing the G/W deck a few times, I think that's the thing, Enchantress is probably a better G/W enchantment-prison deck and has better synergy. And that's where you want to be - with the individual pieces interacting to help one another.

For a Legacy 'Stax' deck, I think it's just like Vintage Shops, the lock is more important than the Smokestack (Shops plays 0 and more recent 'Stax' lists play 2-3). For now, I'm going back to the Armageddon-core of the deck and the list I posted earlier to see where that is lacking... So far, I find it's got good game and three Suppression Field plus three Banishing Lights really slows down decks relying on planeswalkers.

I don't have an answer to "Why Stax, not enchantress." It can't be answered right now because we don't have a proper list, quite honestly.

Feel free to play what you want to, it's your right as a 'Murican. Go for it. Just as I'm going to play what I want to. I laid out my arguments already, and if you're not interested in brewing, that's fine, too. But Stax is a competitive deck. It's nothing about the meta, sometimes it's about the pilot, but really it's about utilizing the power-level of the cards already printed, and using consistency to leverage that power. Power wins games, but consistency wins tournaments. There is no argument against that, as far as I'm concerned.



As to the guy proposing a "Peace of Mind" deck - put up a Peace of Mind decklist. Kirby's totally right. I'm doubtful as to how competitive it might be, but you'll never know until you try.


EDIT: That UB Stax deck, btw, I finished most rounds in 20 min. I think I went close to time once (I think I lost). It was amazing at the time, for the meta. I could grab a slice of pizza or chicken fingers. Having time to recover is honestly important to keep in mind when you're facing 9+ rounds.

[non-inflammable]

As to the guy proposing a "Peace of Mind" deck - put up a Peace of Mind decklist.

As to a decklist, plug in the pieces YOU like but going with peace of mind would probably mean the ensnaring bridge route.

so sad there are only 2 hellbent cards in white and cursed scroll gets locked out by our own chalice.
I had a similar deck way back and used searing meditation and scroll for my win con.

I made this for last night's legacy but got roped into doing christmas "errands" by the wife, so I couldn't play.
between the 4of's and 3of's, juggle what you like and the last few cards were what i had in front of me.


28 lands

3 wasteland
1 God's Eye, gate to the Reikai
4 sea gate wreckage
1 The tabernacle at pendrall vale
2 inventor's fair
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
1 mishra's factory
1 karakas
2 flagstones of trokair
6 plains

32 business cards

4 peace of mind
4 chalice of the void
4 mox diamond
4 crucible of worlds
4 ensnaring bridge
3 trinisphere
3 smokestack
3 armageddon
2 magus of the tabernacle
1 trading post

SB
15 other cards for flavor
but i prefer the helm/leyline of the void, rest in peace transformational sideboard...

[frogger42]

28 lands

3 wasteland
1 God's Eye, gate to the Reikai
4 sea gate wreckage
1 The tabernacle at pendrall vale
2 inventor's fair
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
1 mishra's factory
1 karakas
2 flagstones of trokair
6 plains

32 business cards

4 peace of mind
4 chalice of the void
4 mox diamond
4 crucible of worlds
4 ensnaring bridge
3 trinisphere
3 smokestack
3 armageddon
2 magus of the tabernacle
1 trading post

SB
15 other cards for flavor
but i prefer the helm/leyline of the void, rest in peace transformational sideboard...

Hi non-inflammable, thanks for the list. If you want to tinker with it, here are my thoughts. Take them or leave them, but you're here on a public forum, and presumably you're here to take them and learn from them.


So I count 4 win cons in this list, none of which are really breaking the gamestate (ie Goyf, Batterskull). They are:

Mishra's Factory x1 (a 2/2)
God's Eye x1 (potentially a 1/1)
Magus x2 (a 2/6)

(Inventor's Fair does not fetch anything that does damage, not a win con)

In an ideal world, your opponent literally plays nothing. You open with Magus early - Turn 3 (which is avg for this deck). You close the game Turn 13.

How do you win vs 60Island.dec? You will still spend about 15 minutes beating a deck that literally does nothing to you. If they drop a Batterskull, now you're in a race - you need to prison that. Elvish Warrior is also a problem. And if they drop Jace, or Liliana (or Garruk Wildspeaker, any bad Chandra, etc) you cannot deal with that.

I'm sorry if I sound frustrated, but I repeat:

Imprisoning your opponent is not the same as actually winning.

It's not a matter of what the metagame is (you retool a few slots in your deck), or what your opponent does. It's a matter of how you build your deck. How you play it is almost irrelevant, especially if you don't have a competitive deck initially.

I'm a competitive brewer. Which means, simply, I build decks that intend to win against Tier 1 and Tier 1.5 strategies. Not all of them, but enough to get close to T8 in a given tournament. That's what I feel these forums are for: tuning your deck to win. Correct me if I'm wrong.

"Play to win?" No, I'm against that. It's stupid and morally ignorant. But "Brew to Win," that's what I'm about.

Sorry if I'm harsh, but you have to close your games out, here. "Make the opponent scoop" is never a viable option.

[ghostfire86]

As to a decklist, plug in the pieces YOU like but going with peace of mind would probably mean the ensnaring bridge route.

so sad there are only 2 hellbent cards in white and cursed scroll gets locked out by our own chalice.
I had a similar deck way back and used searing meditation and scroll for my win con.

I made this for last night's legacy but got roped into doing christmas "errands" by the wife, so I couldn't play.
between the 4of's and 3of's, juggle what you like and the last few cards were what i had in front of me.


28 lands

3 wasteland
1 God's Eye, gate to the Reikai
4 sea gate wreckage
1 The tabernacle at pendrall vale
2 inventor's fair
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
1 mishra's factory
1 karakas
2 flagstones of trokair
6 plains

32 business cards

4 peace of mind
4 chalice of the void
4 mox diamond
4 crucible of worlds
4 ensnaring bridge
3 trinisphere
3 smokestack
3 armageddon
2 magus of the tabernacle
1 trading post

SB
15 other cards for flavor
but i prefer the helm/leyline of the void, rest in peace transformational sideboard...

I need to make this easier for everyone:

As to a decklist, plug in the pieces YOU like but going with peace of mind would probably mean the ensnaring bridge route.

so sad there are only 2 hellbent cards in white and cursed scroll gets locked out by our own chalice.
I had a similar deck way back and used searing meditation and cursed scroll for my win con.

I made this for last night's legacy but got roped into doing christmas "errands" by the wife, so I couldn't play.
between the 4of's and 3of's, juggle what you like and the last few cards were what i had in front of me.


28 lands


3 wasteland
1 Gods' Eye, gate to the Reikai
4 sea gate wreckage
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Inventors' Fair
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
1 mishra's factory
1 karakas
2 flagstones of trokair
6 plains

32 business cards

4 peace of mind
4 chalice of the void
4 mox diamond
4 crucible of worlds
4 ensnaring bridge
3 trinisphere
3 smokestack
3 armageddon
2 magus of the tabernacle
1 trading post

SB
15 other cards for flavor
but i prefer the helm of obedience/leyline of the void, rest in peace transformational sideboard...

[non-inflammable]

"Play to win?" No, I'm against that. It's stupid and morally ignorant.

totally agree there.



"Brew to Win," that's what I'm about.

i enjoy brewing probably more than most MTG players.



"Make the opponent scoop" is never a viable option.

"never" is always a viable option...
you have trinisphere in play, smokestack set at 1, crucible of worlds and your opponent has no permanents...


the problem that i saw posed was "how do we get a draw mechanic, try not to dilute the manabase for green too badly and not die to our own tomb activations?"

I answered that question succinctly with no change in the manabase, plays well with smokestack and solves the low-life solution.
the decklist i posted was exploratory but made for the rigors of my weekly legacy gamut.

[ghostfire86]

So I was thinking on the issue of Stax in the state that it is in right now. UB Stax and MUD Stax both seem to get past some issues that we are talking about. UB gains tutors and the use of planes walkers. MUD cuts color, adds generation that counters the increase of cmc, and builds in stompy. Each of these two versions added in their strengths from their own part of the Aether. The focus at the moment is making a build for White Stax other than White Stax Stompy and Armageddon Stax, which from the forum reading I've been doing on the past few days seems to have players less inthralled with the current state of the meta.

I see three different ways to attempt the deck and that is WU WB and WG. Three color deck versions would just be to slow for us to gain early lock pieces and I think we can all agree on that.

WU- amplifies the lock state of white stax, but seems best for aggro decks. ghostly prison and propaganda, magus of the tabernacle and pendrell mists, the moat/humility lock and wheel of sun and moon/energy field lock. This also has cards that work best with artifacts and enchantments which is the permanent base for the deck design. Also there is Narset Transcendent, and with her second ability the tutors become ridicules.

WG- gives us some anti control utilities like choke and dragonlord dromoka and card manipulation like sylvan library. Doesn't seem the best color addition but control decks I think are one of the weak points for this deck and green helps without having to go the route of counter spells mainboards. Stax relies on the opponent being present on the board for interaction and it won't get it for full effect against control decks.

WB- So many control pieces, but I can't think of any actual hard locks. The Abyss and nether void are amazing in the design for Armageddon Stax, but the extra weight of the enchantments I think would require the removal of armageddon. An issue I see with adding Black is the fine line of running into a WB Pox shell build. It also opens the doors to board control that relates well with white while giving deck manipulation white doesn't have.

With this being said I focused on the topic about win conditions needed and planeswalkers.
Kaya, Ghost Assassin
Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Ob Nixilis Reignited
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Vraska the Unseen (Yeah I know GB, but as a 1 of in the deck...maybe useful, especially in the fact we run Moxes)
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath

So these are the usable ones I see that have a way to be used as a win con by themselves given enough time and assist in any particular function. Gideon Jura and his multiple versions are good assault cards, but Im not convinced he can fill in the weak areas the deck has.
Let me know what you think. Im trying to come up with a new design with potential.

[frogger42]

Haha, I'm not intelligent enough to figure out how to requote myself here with your responses. But I'm glad we're on the same page as the "Play to Win"ers, and also have a Thirst for Brewing. Just to address the first part of your reply.

As for "make the opponent scoop" - what I said as not a viable option to winning, I guess I have a quick story here:

So storm players are generally on the cutting edge of play skill. In my opinion, anyway. They deal with really complicated math, all the storm players in my LGS are probably the most skilled players, and they know their outs based on what's left in the deck. They really impress me.
So basically, to a Storm player, running 2 Tendrils of Agony, is like riding a bike with training wheels. You only need one to win, and tutor for it, obviously. Basic storm players run 2 (in case it gets exiled) but really, when your 1 Tendrils gets exiled, the Storm player essentially cannot win. They can go through the motions, make you think they can win, but they can't.
Real Storm players have 1 Tendrils, and 1 win con.

This next part pertains especially to Vintage storm players - sometimes they don't even play a Tendrils. Their gameplan is build up enough storm, dodge all the opponent's disruption, then Demonic Tutor (or Infernal Tutor) and then when that resolves, their opponent scoops. They assume they go to grab the Tendrils.

Opponent scooping = viable option.

Except, I know this story. I always ask my Storm opponent to show the Tendrils: play it out. Nobody in my LGS goes free-ballin' with a deck without a win con, because we're all good players and we make them actually win.

Now why might a Storm player not run any win cons in his/her deck? Same reason you never run "training wheels" - it's another slot to build up your storm, either with cantrips or rituals. Makes your deck run a small percentage smoother, but every little number counts, esp in Storm.

Now, your proposed board state:


"never" is always a viable option...
you have trinisphere in play, smokestack set at 1, crucible of worlds and your opponent has no permanents...

Eh, no, I'm going to play it out, guy. Lets see your win con.
Your list almost doesn't run any way to win! If you had 0 win cons, jam more prison effects, what about the opponent who says: "Lets play this out." Why would they say that?
More information. I want to see how you win. I'll SB game 2 against your win con, if I have relevant cards.

And also, a win con doesn't "dilute" your deck. Elspeth plays a weakish prison piece, too. A chump blocker every turn. You play Ghostly Prison with her (or Humility) and suddenly you have a really narrow path to beat the Stax deck. And that's assuming your opponent is placing pressure on you. When your opponent isn't placing pressure on you, what are you doing? Please say you're placing pressure, or outright winning. Because that's the competitive answer.

Moral: Don't run "training wheels," but don't rely on your opponent scooping. Assume your opponent is intelligent, has built their deck correctly, and is smart enough to wait until you win. "Trinisphere, Smokestack, Crucible" - I don't care. Resolve that Elspeth, and I'll scoop. A stalemate is not a win.

[frogger42]

So I was thinking on the issue of Stax in the state that it is in right now. UB Stax and MUD Stax both seem to get past some issues that we are talking about. UB gains tutors and the use of planes walkers. MUD cuts color, adds generation that counters the increase of cmc, and builds in stompy. Each of these two versions added in their strengths from their own part of the Aether. The focus at the moment is making a build for White Stax other than White Stax Stompy and Armageddon Stax, which from the forum reading I've been doing on the past few days seems to have players less inthralled with the current state of the meta.

I see three different ways to attempt the deck and that is WU WB and WG. Three color deck versions would just be to slow for us to gain early lock pieces and I think we can all agree on that.

I think that this is accurate in my experience. Mostly, that "UB gains tutors" especially. Tutor effects and filtering (Sylvan Library, Scroll Rack) are what makes almost every legacy deck viable. The rare exceptions are just straight redundancy (Burn) but both ways solve the problem of consistency. How to make your deck do what it does, in a consistent manner, each game. I'm actually really really glad you said this.

That's why I proposed Idyllic Tutor in Wg. It's a weak tutor, but it does have the potential to either lock your opponent out, or win the game.

And also, I totally agree with the 3-colors are too much theory. 2 is hard enough with Sol-Lands not contributing any mana fixing. Someone would have to solve the shaky manabase, and that person isn't me.

Ghostfire - do you have like 2 Tundras? I actually have a Stax deck that addresses the "which tutors are legacy playable?" part of Stax. If you're interested in goldfishing it / playing it wherever, I'd be happy to send a list. Maybe you can come up with ways to streamline it for your metagame, too.

[non-inflammable]

Haha, I'm not intelligent enough to figure out how to requote myself here with your responses.

that took some time for me too, i'm "still" waiting for my wife to get ready to go out.



So storm players are generally on the cutting edge of play skill. In my opinion.

mine too.
if i don't play any MB "drag" pieces i should expect to lose quickly and repeatedly to the storm player.
part of my deck building pleasure is building any and every playable legacy deck; storm with one tendrils, too...


Now, your proposed board state: of trinisphere, smokestack on one and a crucible of worlds
what about the opponent who says: "Lets play this out." Why would they say that?
More information. I want to see how you win. I'll SB game 2 against your win con, if I have relevant cards.

That's what i'd expect to hear in any competitive environment.
Without slow-play, i would reduce their life total to zero with just a few minutes left on the clock.

[frogger42]

That's what i'd expect to hear in any competitive environment.
Without slow-play, i would reduce their life total to zero with just a few minutes left on the clock.

But when do you go get a soda and a sammich??
*actual legacy concerns*

[Fred_Bear]

So I took this Stax deck to 9th place - didn't crack T8, but I made like $50 at the time:

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_planeswalker_stax_wi.html

It runs 8 PW'ers, 1 "manland", and an extra 7 ways to tutor for either prison pieces, or win cons. The deck I found to be powerful not because I locked my opponent out, but because I was able to gain a foothold with my prison pieces (The Abyss, Chalice) and finish the game out.

I think Idyllic Tutor is fine - it's both a prison piece (Humility) and a win con (Awakening Zone for now) and is a bit slower, but so flexible for this strategy.

The list I pm'ed you does the same thing - like 8 win cons, and a ton of tutor effects that have the potential to find win cons.

After you imprison someone, you still have to close the game. We both concede that Planeswalkers run rampant against Stax, because they have so many turns to potentially activate. Again, not a problem if you have a good plan to close the game. Imprisoning your opponent is not the same as actually winning. That to me is priority #1, and imprisoning is just a way for you to gain board control in doing so.

I don't have an answer to "Why Stax, not enchantress." It can't be answered right now because we don't have a proper list, quite honestly.

EDIT: That UB Stax deck, btw, I finished most rounds in 20 min. I think I went close to time once (I think I lost). It was amazing at the time, for the meta. I could grab a slice of pizza or chicken fingers. Having time to recover is honestly important to keep in mind when you're facing 9+ rounds.


Forgive me, as I'm going to bounce around a bit based on all the responses...

I think it's hard to compare some of the different flavors of Prison, especially in the context of the 'Armageddon (or generally white) Stax' thread. There are a number of similarities, though. As you point out, you establish a foothold (in this deck, typically 2 pieces like Armageddon plus Trinisphere or similar) and then win. I agree that you do have to finish your opponent, obviously, but I have had no problems finishing with 3-6 finishers in a deck. I also play solely on MTGO, so I have a chess clock and don't have to care about my opponent's slow play (it only costs him). I would assume in paper, you just need to talk to a judge, but it's never come up for me. When I play, I'm looking for inevitability (on both sides). If I put him in a position where he can't do anything, it doesn't matter if I have 20 win-con, I'm going to win. I'll expand in response to another post later...

The difference between Idyllic Tutor and Intuition should be obvious. Idyllic Tutor could be strong because the format pays attention to artifacts, but not enchantments (seems odd for as long as Miracles has been a top deck). At that point, though, you should play Enchantress. Lock - check, Finishers - check. There's really no reason to play Smokestack when you have access to better locks and taxes. It's a very synergistic deck (and they don't even play Idyllic Tutor). For this deck, Golden Wish would be awesome if it cost W2 and Enlightened Tutor could be good if you can get over the Chalice interaction. I know you are against 'anti-synergy', but with how weak Chalice is right now, Enlightened Tutor may be worth it as a 1- or 2-of. It may be worth testing.




As to a decklist, plug in the pieces YOU like but going with peace of mind would probably mean the ensnaring bridge route.

so sad there are only 2 hellbent cards in white and cursed scroll gets locked out by our own chalice.
I had a similar deck way back and used searing meditation and scroll for my win con.

I made this for last night's legacy but got roped into doing christmas "errands" by the wife, so I couldn't play.
between the 4of's and 3of's, juggle what you like and the last few cards were what i had in front of me.


28 lands

3 wasteland
1 God's Eye, gate to the Reikai
4 sea gate wreckage
1 The tabernacle at pendrall vale
2 inventor's fair
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
1 mishra's factory
1 karakas
2 flagstones of trokair
6 plains

32 business cards

4 peace of mind
4 chalice of the void
4 mox diamond
4 crucible of worlds
4 ensnaring bridge
3 trinisphere
3 smokestack
3 armageddon
2 magus of the tabernacle
1 trading post

SB
15 other cards for flavor
but i prefer the helm/leyline of the void, rest in peace transformational sideboard...


Interesting list. I'd be curious to hear how it plays for you. I'd want to see how hard it is to get a lock into place and maintain it. If your focus is Peace of Mind / Ensnaring Bridge, I would drop the Armageddon and I might even go the direction of the colorless stax that put up results a couple months ago (Metalworker Combo Stax). The transformational sideboard also has me intrigued. What would the maindeck look like with the combo? I think the difficulty for game 2 is that any and all hate is in your opponent's deck at that point. Would it matter if you are on the play or draw?


It's not a matter of what the metagame is (you retool a few slots in your deck), or what your opponent does. It's a matter of how you build your deck. How you play it is almost irrelevant, especially if you don't have a competitive deck initially.

I'm a competitive brewer. Which means, simply, I build decks that intend to win against Tier 1 and Tier 1.5 strategies. Not all of them, but enough to get close to T8 in a given tournament. That's what I feel these forums are for: tuning your deck to win. Correct me if I'm wrong.

"Play to win?" No, I'm against that. It's stupid and morally ignorant. But "Brew to Win," that's what I'm about.

Sorry if I'm harsh, but you have to close your games out, here. "Make the opponent scoop" is never a viable option.


I don't think I completely agree with your premise. You can build to a point, but you have to playtest and gain a familiarity with the deck. You keep talking about the anti-synergy with Armageddon in Stax, but it exists. I think if you played and gained some familiarity, you would see it. Several of the decks you have piloted to success require knowlege and playskill - not just a good build.

I agree that you shouldn't ever expect an opponent to scoop, but getting to a point of inevitability is basically how Magic is played. You (or your opponent) can continue to play it out, or ask about a win-con, but that's an individual decision.




As for "make the opponent scoop" - what I said as not a viable option to winning, I guess I have a quick story here:

So storm players are generally on the cutting edge of play skill. In my opinion, anyway. They deal with really complicated math, all the storm players in my LGS are probably the most skilled players, and they know their outs based on what's left in the deck. They really impress me.
So basically, to a Storm player, running 2 Tendrils of Agony, is like riding a bike with training wheels. You only need one to win, and tutor for it, obviously. Basic storm players run 2 (in case it gets exiled) but really, when your 1 Tendrils gets exiled, the Storm player essentially cannot win. They can go through the motions, make you think they can win, but they can't.
Real Storm players have 1 Tendrils, and 1 win con.

This next part pertains especially to Vintage storm players - sometimes they don't even play a Tendrils. Their gameplan is build up enough storm, dodge all the opponent's disruption, then Demonic Tutor (or Infernal Tutor) and then when that resolves, their opponent scoops. They assume they go to grab the Tendrils.

Opponent scooping = viable option.

Except, I know this story. I always ask my Storm opponent to show the Tendrils: play it out. Nobody in my LGS goes free-ballin' with a deck without a win con, because we're all good players and we make them actually win.

Now why might a Storm player not run any win cons in his/her deck? Same reason you never run "training wheels" - it's another slot to build up your storm, either with cantrips or rituals. Makes your deck run a small percentage smoother, but every little number counts, esp in Storm.

Now, your proposed board state:



Eh, no, I'm going to play it out, guy. Lets see your win con.
Your list almost doesn't run any way to win! If you had 0 win cons, jam more prison effects, what about the opponent who says: "Lets play this out." Why would they say that?
More information. I want to see how you win. I'll SB game 2 against your win con, if I have relevant cards.

And also, a win con doesn't "dilute" your deck. Elspeth plays a weakish prison piece, too. A chump blocker every turn. You play Ghostly Prison with her (or Humility) and suddenly you have a really narrow path to beat the Stax deck. And that's assuming your opponent is placing pressure on you. When your opponent isn't placing pressure on you, what are you doing? Please say you're placing pressure, or outright winning. Because that's the competitive answer.

Moral: Don't run "training wheels," but don't rely on your opponent scooping. Assume your opponent is intelligent, has built their deck correctly, and is smart enough to wait until you win. "Trinisphere, Smokestack, Crucible" - I don't care. Resolve that Elspeth, and I'll scoop. A stalemate is not a win.


I think the moral of the story is don't plan on your opponent sucking. It's reasonable to not 'expect' an opponent to scoop, but, at the same time, if you want to stick it out while I hit you 10 times with a Magus, go for it. Again, in my experience online, it takes up about 2 minutes of my clock. I would call a judge if your turn takes more than 30 seconds.

Also, Ghostly Prison won't protect your Elspeth. It stops creatures from hitting you - not a planeswalker you control. Elspeth isn't even a weak prison piece without help. I'm not suggesting he's not playable, just not quite as durable as your post makes it sound.

I think you pointed it out earlier, this deck needs a way to be more consistent to make it through a large tournament because there are a lot of games where your opponent can't apply pressure, but you durdle for 10 turns trying to find something relevant.




So I was thinking on the issue of Stax in the state that it is in right now. UB Stax and MUD Stax both seem to get past some issues that we are talking about. UB gains tutors and the use of planes walkers. MUD cuts color, adds generation that counters the increase of cmc, and builds in stompy. Each of these two versions added in their strengths from their own part of the Aether. The focus at the moment is making a build for White Stax other than White Stax Stompy and Armageddon Stax, which from the forum reading I've been doing on the past few days seems to have players less inthralled with the current state of the meta.

I see three different ways to attempt the deck and that is WU WB and WG. Three color deck versions would just be to slow for us to gain early lock pieces and I think we can all agree on that.

WU- amplifies the lock state of white stax, but seems best for aggro decks. ghostly prison and propaganda, magus of the tabernacle and pendrell mists, the moat/humility lock and wheel of sun and moon/energy field lock. This also has cards that work best with artifacts and enchantments which is the permanent base for the deck design. Also there is Narset Transcendent, and with her second ability the tutors become ridicules.

WG- gives us some anti control utilities like choke and dragonlord dromoka and card manipulation like sylvan library. Doesn't seem the best color addition but control decks I think are one of the weak points for this deck and green helps without having to go the route of counter spells mainboards. Stax relies on the opponent being present on the board for interaction and it won't get it for full effect against control decks.

WB- So many control pieces, but I can't think of any actual hard locks. The Abyss and nether void are amazing in the design for Armageddon Stax, but the extra weight of the enchantments I think would require the removal of armageddon. An issue I see with adding Black is the fine line of running into a WB Pox shell build. It also opens the doors to board control that relates well with white while giving deck manipulation white doesn't have.

With this being said I focused on the topic about win conditions needed and planeswalkers.
Kaya, Ghost Assassin
Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Ob Nixilis Reignited
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Vraska the Unseen (Yeah I know GB, but as a 1 of in the deck...maybe useful, especially in the fact we run Moxes)
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath

So these are the usable ones I see that have a way to be used as a win con by themselves given enough time and assist in any particular function. Gideon Jura and his multiple versions are good assault cards, but Im not convinced he can fill in the weak areas the deck has.
Let me know what you think. Im trying to come up with a new design with potential.

UW - I'm tinkering here. I hadn't thought about Narset, but I think it has a lot of potential. It's much more efficient at creating a lock with a Moat in place. You still need a 'win', as has been discussed, but it gives you quite a clock.

WG - I'm in the boat that I don't think it's good enough to be really competitive, at least in a Stax shell. If you want this color combination, go the road of Enchantress.

WB - I'm not sure what you would gain from W here that U wouldn't do better or B doesn't already do.

As far as planeswalkers go, I think Jace, Tezz (probably a different deck altogether), Elspeth, Liliana, and, maybe, Gideon and Narset are your limits.

W/R which you didn't mention would also have Nahiri which could be interesting in a Stax shell as well...

[frogger42]

Hello again Fred_Bear! I wanted to highlight a few things you said:

To sum up, you feel Wg Stax will probably be inferior to Enchantress. I'm suspecting this might be true. But, for me, the only way you can really check this out is to build a Wg Stax, playtest it, get a really rough-working shell, and then compare the two. This is a very minor point about the difference between the two, and not going to decide which one's better either way, but: Stax is capable of running out a prison piece T1 (Chalice, sometimes Trini), and Enchantress doesn't have access to T1 interaction or disruption. I think, without playable lists, this is about the only comparison I can really come up with between the two, but I think there's something to be gained by building Wg Stax, playtesting it a bit, and then comparing the results (and esp playstyle) to Enchantress.
And yeah, Enchantress does have very clear synergy between the pieces, and Stax pieces are more held together by an overarching Prison playstyle (than direct synergy, ie like Affinity for artifacts), I'm not positive which synergy in practice tends to be better! I think it takes playtesting, tbh.

Ghostly Prison doesn't protect Elspeth. Sometimes I say too much and overlook the obvious stuff, haha. But what I wanted to say was: certain prison effects really synergize with your win cons, too, and a wincon like Elspeth can also help you stabilize the board, just like a prison piece. The garbo Awakening Zone again, just feels so boss with Humility! Obv. Magus of Tabby and Armageddon work on the same principle - Tabby is a win con that synergizes well with Armageddon. Batterskull is bonkers for Humility (and coo-coo for Sylvan Library). It stabilizes most Humility board states, and wins you the game. And I like tutors because, again, if they search out a prison piece or a wincon, then you can affect your boardstate optimally - Prison to stabilize, wincon to close.

Golden Wish. Yes, I totally blanked on this card. And to a lesser extent, Living Wish, too. Awesome catch - Golden has a slew of powerful PW'ers to hit up, in addition to random prison pieces like Glare of Subdual.
It's likely more powerful than Idyllic Tutor...? But I.T. gets Humility, too...? And also shuffles your deck for your Sylvan Library...? Playtesting will tell, if you can scrap together a decent Wish board to test with.

My main concern about running I.T. in the first place was to bring some consistency to the deck. I'd try to stay away from Enlightened Tutor, mostly because of Chalice, but also because I'd rather jam 4x of a decent tutor, not 2x. There's so little filtering and finding in Stax!


There's really no reason to play Smokestack when you have access to better locks and taxes.

Actually, let me quote you this way:


There's really no reason to play Smokestack

HAHAHA, sorry. I just personally HATE Smokestack. It's the biggest durdle ever attempted to play. Storm Crow gets there as fast.

I almost feel like pulling this completely out of context and misquoting you, hahaha. Throw it into my sig. But yeah, play Stack if you want to, I've got a vendetta against this card. Carry on.

[ghostfire86]

I think that this is accurate in my experience. Mostly, that "UB gains tutors" especially. Tutor effects and filtering (Sylvan Library, Scroll Rack) are what makes almost every legacy deck viable. The rare exceptions are just straight redundancy (Burn) but both ways solve the problem of consistency. How to make your deck do what it does, in a consistent manner, each game. I'm actually really really glad you said this.

That's why I proposed Idyllic Tutor in Wg. It's a weak tutor, but it does have the potential to either lock your opponent out, or win the game.

And also, I totally agree with the 3-colors are too much theory. 2 is hard enough with Sol-Lands not contributing any mana fixing. Someone would have to solve the shaky manabase, and that person isn't me.

Ghostfire - do you have like 2 Tundras? I actually have a Stax deck that addresses the "which tutors are legacy playable?" part of Stax. If you're interested in goldfishing it / playing it wherever, I'd be happy to send a list. Maybe you can come up with ways to streamline it for your metagame, too.

No I don't have tundra at this time.

[frogger42]

No I don't have tundra at this time.

Nuts. Like Stax and other control decks tend to be unable to swap actual duals for shocklands. Like especially because of Crucible of Worlds - taking 4 from a Hallowed Fountain and Ancient Tomb makes it almost impossible to stabilize.

Anyway, if you can get your hands on 2 Tundras, buying or borrowing, the rest of my list is fairly cheap to put together. If you're interested.

And not to plug, but I do have rev. Tundras for sale, too. If you ultimately want to keep the deck built.

[Curby]

Is the list you mentioned with 3 Supp Field and 3 Banishing Light your current Stax build? If so, mind posting it?

Re: closing out a game, I find that competitive players often scoop when the writing's on the wall. There will always be people who make you play it out so I wouldn't go into any event with 0 wincons, but generally speaking your opponent wants to go to the bathroom or get a snack as much as you do. That said, getting the full Stax lock has been rather rare in my experience, so I tend towards more wincons just to simultaneously land threats and lock pieces and pressure them on both sides. This is another reason I'd love to see your list: if your deck not only depends on getting a hard lock but frequently achieves it, that's something I'd love to see.

[Fred_Bear]

Golden Wish. Yes, I totally blanked on this card. And to a lesser extent, Living Wish, too. Awesome catch - Golden has a slew of powerful PW'ers to hit up, in addition to random prison pieces like Glare of Subdual.
It's likely more powerful than Idyllic Tutor...? But I.T. gets Humility, too...? And also shuffles your deck for your Sylvan Library...? Playtesting will tell, if you can scrap together a decent Wish board to test with.

My main concern about running I.T. in the first place was to bring some consistency to the deck. I'd try to stay away from Enlightened Tutor, mostly because of Chalice, but also because I'd rather jam 4x of a decent tutor, not 2x. There's so little filtering and finding in Stax!


So on the topic of tutors, here are my thoughts...

Golden Wish is too expensive and too slow. You need 5 mana plus the mana to cast a 3-4 CMC spell (unless you wait until the following turn). In my opinion, if you can afford that amount of time for 'set-up' it's going to play out as 'win-more' in practice. A wish board wouldn't be hard to come up with and, between the sorcery speed and mana cost, you are going to have to run more mana rocks/lands for ramp which means cutting lock pieces out of the deck. I've not tested it, but based on the games I've played with various Stax lists, that's where it feels it will end up.

Idyllic Tutor is still too slow. This card appears attractive because it's 'only' 3 mana, but it's 3 mana plus 3-4 CMC for the enchantment you grab. There are really only a couple enchantments that are worth grabbing (note Awakening Zone isn't one) and none that provide an immediate win. Honestly, as I've said, to go this route would either (1) push you towards Enchantress (Turn 1 Exploration into Turn 2 brokeness) or (2) make you want to test some sort of Heliod, God of the Sun deck. I don't think that's good either.

Enlightened Tutor has terrible synergy with the preferred Turn 1 Chalice of the Void at 1. After playing the deck again, I'm no longer convinced of this. I think I'm going to run through the numbers and look at some of the percentages, but I don't think the synergy is as bad as it once was. I have played a lot of games where (a) your early Chalice of the Void gets either countered or (b) meets an Abrupt Decay or (c) you don't see a Chalice of the Void until Turn 6-8. Enlightened Tutor also provides some flexibility in that the mana cost is low and can be played on the opponent's turn. Even with a Trinisphere out, the worst case is an instant-speed Idyllic Tutor which speeds you up by about a turn...

Intuition hasn't really been discussed. I understand it requires a splash, but it gets everything and could open us up to quite a few powerful options as well as the consistency we need. I'm torn right now on whether including this would push you into Blue-splash white (for what, though? Armageddon?) or Blue-splash black (for what, though? Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas?). It's an idea anyways... Blue has gotten a lot of tool lately...

I'm going to test a few games with a couple Enlightened Tutor because I can do so cheaply online. I may also tinker a little with Intuition, but I think that will be a steeper learning curve for me.

Inventors' Fair didn't really get a mention as I've found that it's too narrow, too expensive, and would require more artifacts. As it has been, any activation has been to find the Bottled Cloister to give a little kick. I think it works much better in an Ensnaring Bridge deck.

[frogger42]

Fred_Bear -

I like that you consolidated basically all of the tutors we've been discussing so far. It definitely addresses issues of consistency with a non-Brainstorm deck, and whichever finisher you go with (Elspeth, Jace, Magus), I think that choice is almost secondary to the choice of Filter, Tutors and Tutor packages. There are plenty of Stax-worthy finishers, but only the handful of Tutors, really.

Golden Wish - I did attempt a WGx deck with Golden Wish. I forget what the exact list was, and I only played it a couple weeks, but the reason Wish is so slow is that it's super color-intensive. The next card it grabs is also certainly color-intensive. In a deck with 8 Sol-Lands, Wasteland, etc etc, I don't think I've ever been able to Wish for anything and cast it that same turn - basically you're looking at WWGG (and some colorless) to get it off the ground.

Idyllic Tutor can let you rely more on your Sol Lands to get stuff out, but optimally, fetching a Ghostly Prison is WW4. Which, in regard to Stax, is actually pretty fine. I think the real drawback is that it's not an instant.

Intuition I've played, and it's easily the most powerful card in my Stax deck, when built right. That it's an instant, unlike Idyllic, means you can hold open U2 during your opponent's turn, fetch something to respond to their play (Jace or Goyf or whatever), and then turn around and lock out that threat during your turn. It's not quite "haste," but it effectively feels like Idyllic Tutor with haste.
Also, the most common item to fetch is Crucible of Worlds x3. That's a U5 casting cost, effectively, which Stax loves. Significantly better than WW4. (Chalice is another hot option, too.) And if you already have Crucible online, your lines of play with Intuition go INSANE.

I try not to fetch things with Intuition that I cannot recur later in the game - Planeswalkers, Enchantments, etc. Only if I can win right on the spot with that kind of card. Academy Ruinsx1 also breaks Intuition in so many ways.

And Fred_Bear, you're aware that I'm also a big fan of Tolaria West. Early Tol Wests you either ditch to Mox Diamond, or run out tapped if you have no Chalice play. Mid-late game, they're lands that double as busted spells - and tap for relevant color. Triple threat.

I guess while I'm at it, the thing I like about Stax is that so many of its lands are also, basically, spells. Wasteland, Inventors' Fair, Tolaria West, even Karakas to some extent. I can basically keep 95% of my opening hands based on "I have mana, I can cast spells" - and manaflooding is fine, especially because that Tolaria West now becomes something relevant. Or the Wasteland tempos your opponent so you see another draw. Delver, Tempo decks don't have this advantage. Neither does Elves, Burn, anything else in the aggro field. They can't afford to manaflood, or manascrew, and are always getting greedy with taking out just one more land for just one more spell. We can do the opposite and still affect the board state.

Running a ton of lands is a good way to beat opposing Wastelands, too. Ha! Just something you'll note while playing the deck, that almost every hand is a keep. Aggressive mulligans are def possible, but totally unnecessary.

It's kind of the same theory when you play Lands.dec. Trick is finding lands that also color-fix while they do relevant things.

[ghostfire86]

Just an idea

http://www.essentialmagic.com/Decks/View.asp?ID=1050347

[frogger42]

Just an idea

http://www.essentialmagic.com/Decks/View.asp?ID=1050347

I'm going to say this about the deck: this is actually a really cool, and maybe even really good, idea.

I've never considered breaking Energy Field by throwing it in a prison shell. Most attempts with playing it have been "Let's put it in a Brainstorm deck." I'm going to say, you're absolutely right, here, you want something powerful like Energy Field to be inherently useful, not just useful in a specific situation (only with RiP in play).

So, just to clarify, what I like about this deck is that it uses a prison style way to get ahead - Prison permanents - and that playstyle inherently synergizes with Energy Field, which hates Instants and Sorceries. So: max out your Enchants and Artifacts that do stuff. I'll be honest, I haven't seen anyone take this approach with Energy Field.

I wouldn't goldfish this deck just yet. I do have a couple concerns. Like I said, my strength is actually building manabases. This is what I notice about yours: I don't think you have enough color fixing. If you want to run "splash" colors (ie W1, as opposed to WW) I go off the #s in Tempo decks, specifically for Blue, their main color. So I try to stick to about 14 sources if I want to run things like Rest in Peace, Ghosty Prison, etc. At a minimum.

For cards like Elspeth/Jace TMS, that are color intensive... it's more complicated, of course. Maybe look at Miracles (Counterbalance, Jace are both UU). But I think it really only takes something like 17 sources, and you stand a really good chance of casting your UU stuff mid-late game.

I'm going to make a HORRIBLE suggestion, but these cards are technically legacy-playable: Azorious Signet and Talisman of Progress. Or whatever the UW Talisman is. These might help, but why I don't like them is that they only mana-fix, and don't make great top-decks, unlike Tolaria West, Wasteland, etc.

Also, and this hurts, but Mox Diamond could be Chrome Mox instead. You want U and W, yes, but you also don't want to kill your own Energy Field. This is a "playtest them both" kind of moment. Also, Chrome Mox goes toward your land count, and Mox Diamond doesn't, because you don't recur the lands you discard.

And lastly, also about the manabase: Sol Lands obv work best with artifacts. They also work really well with casting costs like Ghostly Prison and Propaganda. This is the main reason Stax manabases run Chalice of the Void - this is the most powerful card at CMC 2 you can cast in Legacy. It just happens to be a Prison piece. A big part of your deck - Enlightened Tutor, RiP, Energy Field - don't benefit from your Sol Lands. This is something of a smaller point, but consider that if you're sacrificing City of Traitors or taking 8 dmg from Ancient Tomb that you don't need to set yourself back with this kind of manabase.

That said, I think you've got a really great idea here, and even in a Stax manabase, you're right: you don't need to run Chalice of the Void. Experiment the sh!t out of this deck.

I think the easiest way to break Energy Field, with almost no real effort, is to retool Enchantress (which runs almost all permanents, anyway) and jam some # of copies in there. I think your rough build here, though, also deserves a shot and may find it's even more powerful than in Enchantress, and could make it powerful enough to define a new deck.

Some minor spell choices - Ghostly Prison doesn't protect Jace or any planeswalker. (I know, Fred_Bear reminded me, too, haha.) Neither does Energy Field - a dead Jace also kills your Energy Field (big reason why UW Miracles decks stopped running Energy Field). Just swap JTMS with True-Name Nemesis, though... and I think you're onto a powerful new strategy. Maybe even a Jitte, too.

Terminus - maybe make it Moat / Humility? Again, this deck doesn't really like Sorceries and Instants. But it does want something like The Abyss. Or Porphyry Nodes

Or maybe make it a Jitte for TNN. SFM is easily killable, but you might also Tezz the Seeker for Jitte, and for your Helm, too. Just throwing stuff out there.

This is pretty exciting, though! I hope these things I've noticed about your deck helps you brew it!


EDIT 1: Didn't spell Poryphyry Nodes correctly

EDIT 2: Porphyry Nodes is literally impossible to spell

[ghostfire86]

I'm going to say this about the deck: this is actually a really cool, and maybe even really good, idea.

I've never considered breaking Energy Field by throwing it in a prison shell. Most attempts with playing it have been "Let's put it in a Brainstorm deck." I'm going to say, you're absolutely right, here, you want something powerful like Energy Field to be inherently useful, not just useful in a specific situation (only with RiP in play).

So, just to clarify, what I like about this deck is that it uses a prison style way to get ahead - Prison permanents - and that playstyle inherently synergizes with Energy Field, which hates Instants and Sorceries. So: max out your Enchants and Artifacts that do stuff. I'll be honest, I haven't seen anyone take this approach with Energy Field.

I wouldn't goldfish this deck just yet. I do have a couple concerns. Like I said, my strength is actually building manabases. This is what I notice about yours: I don't think you have enough color fixing. If you want to run "splash" colors (ie W1, as opposed to WW) I go off the #s in Tempo decks, specifically for Blue, their main color. So I try to stick to about 14 sources if I want to run things like Rest in Peace, Ghosty Prison, etc. At a minimum.

For cards like Elspeth/Jace TMS, that are color intensive... it's more complicated, of course. Maybe look at Miracles (Counterbalance, Jace are both UU). But I think it really only takes something like 17 sources, and you stand a really good chance of casting your UU stuff mid-late game.

I'm going to make a HORRIBLE suggestion, but these cards are technically legacy-playable: Azorious Signet and Talisman of Progress. Or whatever the UW Talisman is. These might help, but why I don't like them is that they only mana-fix, and don't make great top-decks, unlike Tolaria West, Wasteland, etc.

Also, and this hurts, but Mox Diamond could be Chrome Mox instead. You want U and W, yes, but you also don't want to kill your own Energy Field. This is a "playtest them both" kind of moment. Also, Chrome Mox goes toward your land count, and Mox Diamond doesn't, because you don't recur the lands you discard.

And lastly, also about the manabase: Sol Lands obv work best with artifacts. They also work really well with casting costs like Ghostly Prison and Propaganda. This is the main reason Stax manabases run Chalice of the Void - this is the most powerful card at CMC 2 you can cast in Legacy. It just happens to be a Prison piece. A big part of your deck - Enlightened Tutor, RiP, Energy Field - don't benefit from your Sol Lands. This is something of a smaller point, but consider that if you're sacrificing City of Traitors or taking 8 dmg from Ancient Tomb that you don't need to set yourself back with this kind of manabase.

That said, I think you've got a really great idea here, and even in a Stax manabase, you're right: you don't need to run Chalice of the Void. Experiment the sh!t out of this deck.

I think the easiest way to break Energy Field, with almost no real effort, is to retool Enchantress (which runs almost all permanents, anyway) and jam some # of copies in there. I think your rough build here, though, also deserves a shot and may find it's even more powerful than in Enchantress, and could make it powerful enough to define a new deck.

Some minor spell choices - Ghostly Prison doesn't protect Jace or any planeswalker. (I know, Fred_Bear reminded me, too, haha.) Neither does Energy Field - a dead Jace also kills your Energy Field (big reason why UW Miracles decks stopped running Energy Field). Just swap JTMS with True-Name Nemesis, though... and I think you're onto a powerful new strategy. Maybe even a Jitte, too.

Terminus - maybe make it Moat / Humility? Again, this deck doesn't really like Sorceries and Instants. But it does want something like The Abyss. Or Porphyry Nodes

Or maybe make it a Jitte for TNN. SFM is easily killable, but you might also Tezz the Seeker for Jitte, and for your Helm, too. Just throwing stuff out there.

This is pretty exciting, though! I hope these things I've noticed about your deck helps you brew it!


EDIT 1: Didn't spell Poryphyry Nodes correctly

EDIT 2: Porphyry Nodes is literally impossible to spell

The mana base I spent almost no time on as of yet. I just wanted something to gloss the list up for initial presentation, and same with the SB. true-name nemesis is a fantastic idea. I was hoping the build with 6 prisons and the winter orb could protect Jace to ultimate and still have the option to bounce creatures and ect.

A cross between enchantments and artifacts leaves enlightened tutor to be the best pick, but will require timing and planning to cast at the end of the opponents turn with knowing you can drop the item after your draw. Control decks love the heads up which sux but trinisphere should help pressure them into deciding how to cast between control or setting their field(all of which is usually 2 cost or less for most of their deck).

Crucible, chalice, and smokestack have all been cut, but I tried to keep it near the prison form.

[Fred_Bear]

Just an idea

http://www.essentialmagic.com/Decks/View.asp?ID=1050347

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24691-UW-Sanctuary-(Helm-RiP-combo)

specifically:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24691-UW-Sanctuary-(Helm-RiP-combo)&p=687747&viewfull=1#post687747

I'm not sure if you're going to be more consistent with the prison route.

You can certainly play Energy Flux / Helm of Obedience / Rest in Peace in a Prison shell, but what benefit do you gain? I would think your match-ups are going to be about the same as the more traditional RiP combo decks, but you lack the consistency of their draw, the robustness of their manabase, and the protection of their disruption. What match-ups do you think are improved by using the prison strategy?

I do still like the idea of using Helm / RiP as a transformational sideboard for Armageddon Stax, though. I think it's unexpected and could sneak a win.

[frogger42]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24691-UW-Sanctuary-(Helm-RiP-combo)

specifically:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24691-UW-Sanctuary-(Helm-RiP-combo)&p=687747&viewfull=1#post687747

I'm not sure if you're going to be more consistent with the prison route.

You can certainly play Energy Flux / Helm of Obedience / Rest in Peace in a Prison shell, but what benefit do you gain? I would think your match-ups are going to be about the same as the more traditional RiP combo decks, but you lack the consistency of their draw, the robustness of their manabase, and the protection of their disruption. What match-ups do you think are improved by using the prison strategy?

I do still like the idea of using Helm / RiP as a transformational sideboard for Armageddon Stax, though. I think it's unexpected and could sneak a win.

Those 2 RiP combo decks should not run Energy Field. They run Fetches, Brainstorms, all kinds of things that you need to progress your game state, and nuke your own Energy Field. The decks are okay on their own, but IMO, Energy Field is worth trying in a shell that doesn't run Instants, Sorceries, or permanents that hit your GY. Those are RiP-E Field combo decks. As far as 2-card combos go, Show and Tell/Omniscience is better. But running synergy with E Field, where Field is always good, that's new to me.

You can't really ask which MUs are improved yet, again, the proposed decklist you literally can't play yet, due to mana-fixing things I noted. And it's not tuned to play in a tournament. I take the decklist as a theory of concept. And in theory, I think Ghostfire is right: Energy Field with prison pieces (E Field IS a prison piece, too) to make your E Field stick around more likely without needing RiP. I give credit where credit is due: the right way to jam E Field, and I totally didn't see it.

Will a workable decklist be legacy-competitive? I dunno, most of the individual card choices are up in the air, IMO. But there are TONS of prison pieces to choose from, tons of permanents that will synergize with E Field, that it's absolutely worth the experiment to brew something up and goldfish, even play in your weekly to tune.

Ghostfire - keep in mind, it took me 2 yrs to build a competitive form of UB Stax. So it's an investment. But that was pretty much only with the guys in my LGS, and I think you might find the right gents on this forum here to speed that up a lot.
(Also - still try to find a way to run Chalice! It'll shut down Cabal Therapy from wrecking your own E Field, and other types of removal! But just my opinion.)

[Fred_Bear]

Those 2 RiP combo decks should not run Energy Field. They run Fetches, Brainstorms, all kinds of things that you need to progress your game state, and nuke your own Energy Field. The decks are okay on their own, but IMO, Energy Field is worth trying in a shell that doesn't run Instants, Sorceries, or permanents that hit your GY. Those are RiP-E Field combo decks. As far as 2-card combos go, Show and Tell/Omniscience is better. But running synergy with E Field, where Field is always good, that's new to me.

You can't really ask which MUs are improved yet, again, the proposed decklist you literally can't play yet, due to mana-fixing things I noted. And it's not tuned to play in a tournament. I take the decklist as a theory of concept. And in theory, I think Ghostfire is right: Energy Field with prison pieces (E Field IS a prison piece, too) to make your E Field stick around more likely without needing RiP. I give credit where credit is due: the right way to jam E Field, and I totally didn't see it.

Will a workable decklist be legacy-competitive? I dunno, most of the individual card choices are up in the air, IMO. But there are TONS of prison pieces to choose from, tons of permanents that will synergize with E Field, that it's absolutely worth the experiment to brew something up and goldfish, even play in your weekly to tune.


I kind of disagree... Energy Field, in the linked deck (with fetches), is a (2-of) support piece (the author even mentions how it can be used as an albeit fragile temporary out). In the prison shell (4-of), it looks like it's expected to be more a focal point, but it doesn't do anything without Rest in Peace. In both cases, once RiP is in play, you are working towards Helm for the win. The filtering/draw/protection package seems less fragile than drawing into a soft lock until you draw the win-con.

I feel like there should be some motivation for replacing consistency (draw/filter/tutor/etc.) with a prison strategy. Don't get me wrong, I like to watch my opponent not play as much as the next guy, but Tinker/Colossus yields the same result...

I think the shell of this type of combo is:

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Rest in Peace
2-3 Energy Field
2-3 Helm of Obedience

From there, you can jam prison (sol-lands) or filtering (fetch-lands)... I could see a case for prison, if it helps your tricky match-ups. If it doesn't, I think taking this down the brainstorm path (other thread) is much more viable and consistent.

Path to Victory - Rest In Peace - Helm of Obedience - Activate - Win (same for both decks)

Sol-Lands - Prison while finding RiP, Helm, and 4-6 lands

Fetch-Lands - Miracles while finding RiP, Helm, and 4-6 lands

The list I linked has a nice Enlightened Tutor toolbox and I'd be curious where Prison would improve the deck. It's certainly not going to improve against discard strategies, but could be more useful vs others. Which ones?

[frogger42]

I kind of disagree... Energy Field, in the linked deck (with fetches), is a (2-of) support piece (the author even mentions how it can be used as an albeit fragile temporary out). In the prison shell (4-of), it looks like it's expected to be more a focal point, but it doesn't do anything without Rest in Peace. In both cases, once RiP is in play, you are working towards Helm for the win. The filtering/draw/protection package seems less fragile than drawing into a soft lock until you draw the win-con.

I think in the right prison shell, where all your pieces inherently stick on the field (no Crucible, no Smokestack) Energy Field becomes a hot synergy piece to run with whatever your board state, and not just a combo piece with RiP. You're not going to make yourself sac it because of your Fetch. Its effect is powerful enough that your opponent has to find some way to remove it, somehow.


I feel like there should be some motivation for replacing consistency (draw/filter/tutor/etc.) with a prison strategy. Don't get me wrong, I like to watch my opponent not play as much as the next guy, but Tinker/Colossus yields the same result...

I despise when my opponent plays cards. It's obnoxious - it's like they feel entitled to have fun. Nope.
But seriously, a proper decklist will hopefully address the consistency issue. Ghostfire put up Enlightened Tutor which, while I disagree with it as a card choice, is an initial way to address consistency problems.

[Fred_Bear]

I think in the right prison shell, where all your pieces inherently stick on the field (no Crucible, no Smokestack) Energy Field becomes a hot synergy piece to run with whatever your board state, and not just a combo piece with RiP. You're not going to make yourself sac it because of your Fetch. Its effect is powerful enough that your opponent has to find some way to remove it, somehow.


Against what deck? What deck is just going to sit and let you develop with an Energy Field in play (with no RiP)? This is my point, it has to help you in some way against some deck (preferably better than the fetchlands/Brainstorm version). Honestly, if you don't have RiP in play, most opponents won't care about Energy Field (unless they have ZERO ways to interact with you). If I'm playing BUG, I'll wait and Abrupt Decay or Force your next spell or Hymn you and 2- or 3-for-1 you. Miracles/Delver will just counter your next spell.

Please understand, I can see how useful Energy Field can be. The big BUT, though, is if I've got RiP in play, why not just try to win? I would argue that you would NEVER Enlightened Tutor for Energy Field, even in the suggested decklist. Rest in Piece would be target #1 (obviously, I think), Helm of Obedience would be target #2. (There would be an outside chance where I would Tutor for a Mox Diamond turn 1 so that you would have turn 2 RiP turn 3 Helm and turn 4 win, but you have to have both in hand).

Just my thoughts...

[ghostfire86]

Against what deck? What deck is just going to sit and let you develop with an Energy Field in play (with no RiP)? This is my point, it has to help you in some way against some deck (preferably better than the fetchlands/Brainstorm version). Honestly, if you don't have RiP in play, most opponents won't care about Energy Field (unless they have ZERO ways to interact with you). If I'm playing BUG, I'll wait and Abrupt Decay or Force your next spell or Hymn you and 2- or 3-for-1 you. Miracles/Delver will just counter your next spell.

Please understand, I can see how useful Energy Field can be. The big BUT, though, is if I've got RiP in play, why not just try to win? I would argue that you would NEVER Enlightened Tutor for Energy Field, even in the suggested decklist. Rest in Piece would be target #1 (obviously, I think), Helm of Obedience would be target #2. (There would be an outside chance where I would Tutor for a Mox Diamond turn 1 so that you would have turn 2 RiP turn 3 Helm and turn 4 win, but you have to have both in hand).

Just my thoughts...

1st I would like to address BUG and other decks that target the player. Like always there is the sideboard for the lack of strength. Lets not worry about what might be and focus on what is.

To the point that your making I have to agree...partially. If you have RIP and a way to collect Helm, drop, and activate by all mean go for it. This really comes down to probability, draw, play style, and the opponents ability. Hypotheticals in a preliminary of a theory is not always productive. If I have no opening but can enclose myself then push forward till you gain ground.

Stax seems like a mid range deck when compared to Pox and Enchantress. Go to far in one direction and your in the neighborhood of one of the decks.

Deck thoughts:

Core
2 helm of obedience
3 energy field
4 rest in peace

Shell
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
3 trinisphere
4 winter orb
4 ghostly prison (maybe a split between this and propaganda)


So with this we have the beginnings of something:
winter orb + ghostly prison=no one can attack you
winter orb + Trinisphere=nothing gets cast quickly by the opponent except every few turns
winter orb + the tabernacle at pendrell vale=opponent has at most one creature on the field (need to close this to zero)

trinisphere, ghostly prison, the tabernacle at pendrell vale all hindering the opposition.

I have my own reservations towards the RIP/Helm combo with the EF addition. It has little synergy with the deck in whole. Essentially the attack is on the mana base, but the core does nothing for this. I feel a pull towards changing the core into something like this:

4 mana vortex
3 crucible of worlds

Add in 2 chrome mox to assist in mana production

We now have a list that looks like:

2 chrome mox
4 mox diamond

4 winter orb
3 crucible of worlds
3 trinisphere

4 mana vortex
4 ghostly prison

24 cards....Add 4 chalice of the void. From a few games I've played there has been the growing picture that I really am only going to CotV for 1 counter most times. If I CotV for 2 at some point I hopefully have winter orb in play already, or mana vortex on the field. Remove the white from this list by changing ghostly prison to propaganda[/cards] and add in Kiora, the Crashing Wave. We nullify a permanent that we don't have an answer for, drop more land into the field to counter mana vortex with the bonus of card draw, and have a wincon of the emblem.

2 chrome mox
3 mox diamond

3 intuition

4 chalice of the void
4 winter orb
3 crucible of worlds
3 trinisphere

2 sylvan library
3 mana vortex
4 Propaganda

3 kiora, the crashing wave

34 cards....

2 engineered explosives

36 cards.....

Add in academy ruins, and tolaria west........yep its looking much better I think.

This is really stepping out of my normal deck designing....ugh...Im going to take a break and hit it again later. Let me know thoughts and ideas. GU may be better or worse, but I like to have a contrast deck to test against the main deck design, and another alternative. Its missing a secondary win condition.....true-name nemesis, and terravore would shine here I think.

[frogger42]

2 chrome mox
3 mox diamond

3 intuition

4 chalice of the void
4 winter orb
3 crucible of worlds
3 trinisphere

2 sylvan library
3 mana vortex
4 Propaganda

3 kiora, the crashing wave

34 cards....

2 engineered explosives

36 cards.....

Add in academy ruins, and tolaria west........yep its looking much better I think.

This is really stepping out of my normal deck designing....ugh...Im going to take a break and hit it again later. Let me know thoughts and ideas. GU may be better or worse, but I like to have a contrast deck to test against the main deck design, and another alternative. Its missing a secondary win condition.....true-name nemesis, and terravore would shine here I think.

I just posted a decent reply, and my f-ing internet connection choked and lost it. Sweet MF'er.

Anyway, I forget whatall I was going to say. Basically, lemme throw you a full decklist so you have something to jam with (here are your lands, sir):

Spells 31:
3 intuition

4 chalice of the void
4 winter orb - make into 4x True-Name Nemesis?
3 crucible of worlds
3 trinisphere

2 sylvan library
3 mana vortex
4 Propaganda

3 kiora, the crashing wave

2 engineered explosives - make 1x Eng Exp into Intuition #4?

Mana 28:
2 chrome mox
3 mox diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Tolaria West
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas

(1 slot open - run Mox Diamond #4?)

You're a little light on Green - only 9 direct sources - but you can Intution / Tol West for G if you need it.

Also, I think cutting Winter Orb (which does nothing against Tempo/Combo/Burn, etc) for a win con will help you get there. WOrb can go in the SB, I think that's where you want it for playtesting right now.

Pretty sure I put in all the lands you asked for! Mishra's Factory ain't no Creeping Tar Pit but it's something, I guess. Good luck! Feel free to jot down notes while you're playing, and share them with us!
-Frogger

[Fred_Bear]

Spells 31:
3 intuition

4 chalice of the void
4 winter orb - make into 4x True-Name Nemesis?
3 crucible of worlds
3 trinisphere

2 sylvan library
3 mana vortex
4 Propaganda

3 kiora, the crashing wave

2 engineered explosives - make 1x Eng Exp into Intuition #4?

Mana 28:
2 chrome mox
3 mox diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Tolaria West
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas

(1 slot open - run Mox Diamond #4?)

You're a little light on Green - only 9 direct sources - but you can Intution / Tol West for G if you need it.

Also, I think cutting Winter Orb (which does nothing against Tempo/Combo/Burn, etc) for a win con will help you get there. WOrb can go in the SB, I think that's where you want it for playtesting right now.

Pretty sure I put in all the lands you asked for! Mishra's Factory ain't no Creeping Tar Pit but it's something, I guess. Good luck! Feel free to jot down notes while you're playing, and share them with us!
-Frogger

I think you're really light on green to consistently cast Sylvan Library early (normally you want 12-14). Intuition is way more powerful, so you may think about those spots and see how it plays.

I also think you are light on blue to hit UU for Tolaria West, Mana Vortex, or True-Name Nemesis.

Would you be better off using a Talisman or Signet instead of Chrome Mox? You're light on 'extra' colored cards for Mox and better artifact mana will help with a Mana Vortex.

I understand why Engineered Explosives is attractive with Tolaria West, but setting on 2 is going to be rough on your Orb and Library. Would you be better off with Ratchet Bomb? Just thinking about what board state you might want Explosives to handle. It would also allow you to lower your Tolaria West count so that you aren't putting it into play tapped too often.

I'm interested to hear how the Mana Vortex / Crucible / Orb lock plays. It seems too symmetric to me.

[frogger42]

I understand why Engineered Explosives is attractive with Tolaria West, but setting on 2 is going to be rough on your Orb and Library. Would you be better off with Ratchet Bomb? Just thinking about what board state you might want Explosives to handle. It would also allow you to lower your Tolaria West count so that you aren't putting it into play tapped too often.

Eng Exp is honestly kind of the bane of a Prison deck. But as a 1-of, that you can tutor multiple ways, and that your heavy hitters tend to be CMC higher than most Legacy threats... most of the time you dodge hitting yourself too hard.

Also, Eng Exp was always told to me this way: "This card is Powder Keg with haste."

Whatever Eng Exp nukes, Ratchet Bomb does the same thing. Not sure why you would swap to something far less tutorable.

(Also note: Eng Exp tends to nuke your own Dimir Signet or whatever the appropriate mana-rock would be. Chrome Mox dodges this problem a lot better. Esp now that Insectile Aberration is CMC 1 and not CMC 0 these days.)

EDIT: You can't just lower Tolaria West count, it's your manabase, but you can potentially replace it with another land. So instead of Tol West x4, what would you do: Tol West x3, Mystery Land x1? Not sure there's anything else that's more powerful than Tol West, esp that color-fixes.)

[Fred_Bear]

Eng Exp is honestly kind of the bane of a Prison deck. But as a 1-of, that you can tutor multiple ways, and that your heavy hitters tend to be CMC higher than most Legacy threats... most of the time you dodge hitting yourself too hard.

Also, Eng Exp was always told to me this way: "This card is Powder Keg with haste."

Whatever Eng Exp nukes, Ratchet Bomb does the same thing. Not sure why you would swap to something far less tutorable.

(Also note: Eng Exp tends to nuke your own Dimir Signet or whatever the appropriate mana-rock would be. Chrome Mox dodges this problem a lot better. Esp now that Insectile Aberration is CMC 1 and not CMC 0 these days.)

EDIT: You can't just lower Tolaria West count, it's your manabase, but you can potentially replace it with another land. So instead of Tol West x4, what would you do: Tol West x3, Mystery Land x1? Not sure there's anything else that's more powerful than Tol West, esp that color-fixes.)

I don't disagree that Tolaria West has usefulness, but, realistically, it sucks to have to play it from your hand as a mana source. It's a tutor that can play as mana. It's also a pretty narrow tutor for the cost, UU1 to find Chalice or EE or a mana rock is going to be rough with that few blue sources (including the TWs). Personally, I would test 4 Mox Diamond, 25 lands (8 sol-land, 2-3 TW, etc.) and 2 Coalition Relic. I'd love Relic to be Basalt Monolith, but I think you need the colored source more. Relic, at least, gives you a boost every other turn to help break the symmetry of some of the other lock pieces. (It should also dodge you CMC 2 issue while not causing the problems Chrome Mox will have. My gut feeling is that this deck cannot handle the card disadvantage of Chrome Mox.) Mana Vortex is a tricky card and you'll need mana-advantage rocks, especially with Winter Orb. Right now, I feel the TW tutor package is very slow. I might add a Hangarback Walker in as a tutorable potential win-con, mana-sink.

[frogger42]

I don't disagree that Tolaria West has usefulness, but, realistically, it sucks to have to play it from your hand as a mana source. It's a tutor that can play as mana. It's also a pretty narrow tutor for the cost, UU1 to find Chalice or EE or a mana rock is going to be rough with that few blue sources (including the TWs). Personally, I would test 4 Mox Diamond, 25 lands (8 sol-land, 2-3 TW, etc.) and 2 Coalition Relic. I'd love Relic to be Basalt Monolith, but I think you need the colored source more. Relic, at least, gives you a boost every other turn to help break the symmetry of some of the other lock pieces. (It should also dodge you CMC 2 issue while not causing the problems Chrome Mox will have. My gut feeling is that this deck cannot handle the card disadvantage of Chrome Mox.) Mana Vortex is a tricky card and you'll need mana-advantage rocks, especially with Winter Orb. Right now, I feel the TW tutor package is very slow. I might add a Hangarback Walker in as a tutorable potential win-con, mana-sink.

Again, Tol West is in the manabase - if you don't want to run it, which land are you going to swap for it?

Coalition Relic is just about the same problem as Signets/Mana Rocks, as far as Engineered Explosives goes. Almost all Legacy threats are not CMC 0 (why Chrome Mox will most likely dodge Eng Exp) - a lot of Legacy threats are at CMC 1, 2, and some at 3 as well. It's the nature of balance in the cards. No one cares about Memnite, it's the Cranial Plating that gets you.

[Fred_Bear]

Again, Tol West is in the manabase - if you don't want to run it, which land are you going to swap for it?

Coalition Relic is just about the same problem as Signets/Mana Rocks, as far as Engineered Explosives goes. Almost all Legacy threats are not CMC 0 (why Chrome Mox will most likely dodge Eng Exp) - a lot of Legacy threats are at CMC 1, 2, and some at 3 as well. It's the nature of balance in the cards. No one cares about Memnite, it's the Cranial Plating that gets you.

I'd add another Trop and/or Flooded Strand/Misty Rainforest in the proposed build. You need more green without giving up blue. Mana Vortex and Winter Orb are going to make this deck very 'clunky' early.

P.S. I don't think this deck can play an Explosives at 3, realistically. Basically, whole deck resides there. Using EE to blow up 1 card is almost always going to set you back worse. Relic is about your best option (unless you want to play Darksteel Ingot) to give you a mana advantage about every other turn (Tap on opponent's turn to get 2 mana on yours).

[frogger42]

I'd add another Trop and/or Flooded Strand/Misty Rainforest in the proposed build. You need more green without giving up blue. Mana Vortex and Winter Orb are going to make this deck very 'clunky' early.

This is such a minor suggestion that can only be confirmed by playtesting, anyway. It's not really suggesting a new, potentially better card, so much as tuning a deck that's never been played. Ghostfire, if he throws the deck together, will make that determination; it's not up to us backseat drivers to tell him how to use his blinker.


P.S. I don't think this deck can play an Explosives at 3, realistically. Basically, whole deck resides there. Using EE to blow up 1 card is almost always going to set you back worse. Relic is about your best option (unless you want to play Darksteel Ingot) to give you a mana advantage about every other turn (Tap on opponent's turn to get 2 mana on yours).

I'm going to leave that up to Ghostfire, again. I've never played a CMC 3 mana rock in legacy, and I strongly suspect it's simply not viable.

[ghostfire86]

This is such a minor suggestion that can only be confirmed by playtesting, anyway. It's not really suggesting a new, potentially better card, so much as tuning a deck that's never been played. Ghostfire, if he throws the deck together, will make that determination; it's not up to us backseat drivers to tell him how to use his blinker.



I'm going to leave that up to Ghostfire, again. I've never played a CMC 3 mana rock in legacy, and I strongly suspect it's simply not viable.

Once the holidays are done I'll be proxyung some decks together for testing.

[Captain Hammer]

Armageddon and lock pieces always paired great with planeswalkers.

Are planewalkers the missing piece needed to make this strategy viable? If so, white is about to get an awesome planeswalker.

Serra the Benevolent
WW2, 4 Loyalty Planeswalker
+2: Creature you control with flying get +1/+1 until end of turn.
-3: Creature a 4/4 Angel Creature token w/ Flying and Vigilance
-6: You get an emblem with "If you control a creature, damage that would reduce your life total to less than 1 reduces it to 1 instead."

https://i.imgur.com/OfFRFlq.jpg

[JackaBo]

Armageddon and lock pieces always paired great with planeswalkers.

Are planewalkers the missing piece needed to make this strategy viable? If so, white is about to get an awesome planeswalker.

Serra the Benevolent
WW2, 4 Loyalty Planeswalker
+2: Creature you control with flying get +1/+1 until end of turn.
-3: Creature a 4/4 Angel Creature token w/ Flying and Vigilance
-6: You get an emblem with "If you control a creature, damage that would reduce your life total to less than 1 reduces it to 1 instead."

https://i.imgur.com/OfFRFlq.jpg

Sounds promising. I remember playing hero of bladehold. It was great if it didnt eat removal. I bet this one is bettter!

[Captain Hammer]

Court of Grace seems fantastic here.

Just wondering if this deck's strategy could potentially make a comeback. Lots of goodies printed recently.

Can Emeria's Call be discarded to Mox Diamond? If so, Emeria's Call is an autoinclude.

Chalice, Trini and Armageddon/Ravages/Cataclysm, Wasteland+Crucible, Ghostly Prison, Flagstones, Tabernacle, Karakas are all still amazing cards. Cataclysms ability to boardwipe all planeswalkers makes it better than ever imo.

[frogger42]

Court of Grace seems fantastic here.

Just wondering if this deck's strategy could potentially make a comeback. Lots of goodies printed recently.

Can Emeria's Call be discarded to Mox Diamond? If so, Emeria's Call is an autoinclude.

Chalice, Trini and Armageddon/Ravages/Cataclysm, Wasteland+Crucible, Ghostly Prison, Flagstones, Tabernacle, Karakas are all still amazing cards. Cataclysms ability to boardwipe all planeswalkers makes it better than ever imo.

Emeria's Call is a Sorcery, so doesn't work with Diamond.

Cataclysm is great. I also ran it with Suppression Field, which is pretty flipping great, though tricky with SFM. Though there's also a new 3/3 flying sort of SFM in Commander Legends.

Armageddon I think is terrible, really. RUG Delver is probably the top tier deck. Snowko gets by with 3-4 mana (Oko/Uro) so they can really minimize the effect of losing all lands. IDK if Angel Stompy is where you want to be quite honestly.

[FTW]

I loved this deck back in the day, but at this point I think Thalia Stompy is just the better version. Geddon and Staxx are too slow.

[FTW]

This Bosh N Roll video shows white Stax has potential again, thanks to Urza's Saga. Crucible returning Saga is a thing that makes Crucible look good again, even when you can't Wastelock opponent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZmeHa4zk4w

The donation list has some weird combo with Drannith Magistrate and Uba Mask that just got boarded out every game, because the deck is already too grindy with minimal card selection. Drannith Magistrate is a cute maindeck hate piece vs Uro and Ragavan but performed pretty badly in the other matchups.

The deck seems good at abusing Saga and doing the whole Smokestack thing. Cutting Geddon seems bad in the matchups where opponents stabilized against Tangle Wire/Stax/3sphere, so I'm adding it back in. The lack of wincons and card draw is also a problem so +1 Court of Grace. Tangle Wire and Bridge both help keep Monarch (Ghostly Prison helps even more), so Court can snowball out of control quickly.

1-of Hex Parasite lets you remove counters from Urza's Saga to keep it at Chapter 2. It also removes counters from Smokestack if the opponent stops playing lands, so you don't have to suicide your Smokestack and can just keep it out at 0 preventing the opponent from playing Magic again.



//Lands: 27
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
3 Urza's Saga
3 Flagstones of Trokair
7 Plains
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

//Planeswalkers: 4
4 Karn, the Great Creator

//Artifacts: 26
3 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal
1 Hex Parasite
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack

//Enchantments: 1
1 Court of Grace

//Spells: 2
2 Armageddon

//Sideboard: 15
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sundial of the Infinite
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
3 Walking Ballista
3 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Ghostly Prison


I found 4x Sphere of Resistance maindeck odd. With such a high curve, it risks punishing this deck even more if opponent wastes the turn 1 sol land. But is there a better 2nd play off a single sol land (after Chalice)? The Winter Orb plan seems bad with Urza's Saga. Maybe it should be Sorcerous Spyglass or be boarded out for Spyglass/Ballista against Wasteland decks. T1 Sphere is good to curve with Urza's Saga, which can then make early constructs while neither player can cast many spells.

Sundial of the Infinite is weird tech you can activate on upkeep to duck your own Smokestack/Tangle Wire/Urza's Saga chapter triggers in grindy matchups to keep them oppressing the opponent forever (at the cost of your draw step). It can also counter combat tricks and removal on your attacking Constructs or things the opponent tries to do on your EOT. It has potential in some long games but seems conditional enough to leave in the SB for now.

The deck is pretty much colorless, so there is also the potential to play it in blue instead with 4x Emry, Lurker of the Loch and 2x Sai, Master Thopterist. Both seem amazing at sustaining Smokestack and generating card advantage by rebuying lock pieces or sacrificing extra ones for value.

[Reeplcheep]

I think nesting grounds is very good with sagas. This gives you additional hex parasites in the land slot. Due to its higher floor and synergy with saga and mox diamond, it could be better than the Non tutorable 1 ofs.

[FTW]

Nesting Grounds has potential. You could also move soot counters off Smokestack or move fading counters from a dying Tangle Wire to a newer one. Much tech possible.

The downside is it taps for colorless, so it competes with colorless lands or spells unless the deck just cuts white completely.

What 1-ofs would you cut? Hex Parasite and Moxes are tutorable. 1-of Mox Opal is because in the video he often wants to tutor for mana but doesn't want to discard a land, making Mox Diamond awkward. If you're land flooded you can get Diamond, but if you're artifact flooded and land-light then you can get Opal.

Court of Grace seems amazing with all the prison effects, although hard to cast. If it or Geddon are cut, maybe the deck should just go colorless?


Colorless Stax


//Lands: 28
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Urza's Saga
3 Nesting Grounds
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Plains
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

//Artifacts: 28
4 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal
1 Hex Parasite
1 Retrofitter Foundry
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack

//Planeswalkers: 4
4 Karn, the Great Creator

//Sideboard: 15
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sundial of the Infinite
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Walking Ballista
3 Thought-Knot Seer

[Reeplcheep]

Yah the double white spells are strong but double white is so much harder than single white in a stompy deck. With more artifacts you could also look into playing more mox opals, which could make the deck significantly faster.

I didn’t like the tabernacle either just because you have no way of finding it. It should be either a 0 or a 2 imo.

[FTW]

It just seems wrong not to play Tabernacle in Stax. Maybe with 1 Magus of the Tabernacle SB to have the redundant effect. I think in the colorless deck there is little cost to playing the 1 Tabernacle. In the white version it competes more with other effects or white sources though...

Opal doesn't make mana on turn 1, so it doesn't actually speed up the deck, and it's bad with Spheres. It's much better on turn 4 than on turn 1, so it's a 1-of Saga target (Saga also helps make metalcraft).

Edit: The donation deck ran some Ancient Den and the colorless version could run Darksteel Citadel to help Mox Opal and Constructs, but I think for this format the correct number of these is 0. No need to walk harder into Null Rods.

[Reeplcheep]

I have never played Sphere with my Trinispheres. Is the non-bo fine or should you run thorns/lodestone golems instead?

[FTW]

I have never played Sphere with my Trinispheres. Is the non-bo fine or should you run thorns/lodestone golems instead?

Yeah, Sphere doesn't make as much sense for Black Stompy but this is more like the old Geddon Stax decks.

Lodestone would be ideal but in this format you really need a prison piece on turn 1. With 0 creatures maindeck Thorn of Amethyst risks being 1-sided for the opponent, might as well play Sphere main. Sphere has the same effect on this deck but oppresses the opponent more.

The lack of business at 2 mana is probably why white stax has seen less play for a long time. White doesn't have Dark Ritual or Spirit Guides to help power out turn 1 3sphere or Moons. Unfortunately Chrome Mox doesn't work here and Mox Opal won't be active on turn 1, so the most acceleration is 4x Mox Diamond. Diamond is at least supported by the high land count and Crucibles. Other builds above were trying Winter Orb, which is good with Tangle Wire and Stax prison stuff but not good with Sagas and Nesting Grounds. Some played Suppression Field, but this is also bad with Saga and hard to power out turn 1 due to the white mana cost. Maybe the solution is just to stay out of white.

What white does well is Flagstones of Trokair to support the Stax/Geddon plan. White Stax can pressure mana better than other Stompy decks.

[Reeplcheep]

Ok sphere for curve reasons makes sense. What about lodestone/Thalia/liquimetal torgueover 3 ball?

[FTW]

Yeah maybe Lodestone over 3-ball. Turn 3 Lodestone is much slower than turn 2 3ball though. I think Lodestone needs a land like Eldrazi Temple to really make it in Legacy.

Thalia has a better mana cost but is still hard to play turn 1 and risks being 1-sided in opponent's favor (Vial aggro, Elves, Maverick). This deck would love a Thalia-sized Lodestone effect!!

In stompy decks like yours you really want 3ball early or it gets bad. In Stax lategame 3ball is good too, because Tangle Wire/Wastelock/Smokestack/Geddon oppress their mana. They can't just make land drops to get out of it. I'll try both out.

I thought on paper the anti-synergy with Sphere would slow down this deck too much, but in the video the lock pieces worked well. Deserves more testing. I guess if you have too many lock pieces you're in a win-more position anyway, but when they have answers redundancy is good. Urza's Saga also makes it a lot easier for this deck to play under 3ball/Sphere by just making tokens. With Nesting Ground that plan gets even better. Mishra's Factory was another old trick to sneak under symmetrical mana & creature oppression.

Edit: Nesting Ground is hilarious for Saga mirrors, letting you put your Chapter counters on opponent's Saga to kill it and give them 1 fewer construct.

[Reeplcheep]

Archon of emeria could be the consideration as a 3 cmc hatebear. Lands etb tabbed is powerful with smokestack and the rule of law makes it reasonable to accelerate out vs combo.

[FTW]

Archon's a great idea. Deserves testing. Slowing down fetchland by an extra turn is big, and it punishes decks trying to chain cantrips and fetchlands.