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Silverdragon
02-06-2008, 07:20 PM
The more I test with it the less impressed I'm with Academy Ruins. The best you can do is recurring Engineered Explosives. Recurring Crucible, Trini or Smokestack is not as strong as it initially seems. In combination with Intuition (in a Ruins + Crucible + x pile) it looks really awesome but otherwise it's generally not worth it.
Let's look at the matchups where you actually might have to recur your artifacts.
Survival: They have Harmonic Sliver (or something similar) and Discard. Your strategy is to play creature taxing effects (Magus + Ghostly Prison) then follow it up by Geddon and Wastelock (with more Geddons tossed in for basic lands) so they are unable to attack you until you kill them. Here Smokestack, Crucible and Trinisphere are only useful after the first Geddon to keep them locked up so the Survival player will go for Armageddon, Ghostly Prison and Magus first with his discard and removal. This also means that Academy Ruins is almost useless the entire game. In the worst case scenario they have a recurring removal (Harmonic Sliver + Genesis with you having a Magus out for example). In this situation you want to topdeck an Armageddon or Tormod's Crypt (should you have it after boarding) so Academy Ruins does nothing to help you here too.
Landstill: Landstill has Counterspells and Mass Removal (Pernicious Deed). Right now I believe this matchup (and basically any matchup where the opponent plays Deed) comes down to you resolving Armageddon. If you can resolve it before they resolve Pernicious Deed you win. If you resolve it after they resolve Pernicious Deed you are once again in a race to resolve the next one before they resolve their next Deed. Smokestack, Trini and Crucible are mainly used to set up for an Armageddon by drawing out counterspells and making it harder for them to play counterspells they draw later. Crucible + Wasteland or Smokestack @1 can also slow down Pernicious Deed however this is rarely the case as most of the time they already have 3-4 mana when Smokestack gets the first counter or you can start recurring Wasteland. A single Stifle will almost always buy them enough time. So with all that said how does Academy Ruins do in this matchup? Actually this is one of the matchups where it is most useful because you have to rebuild so many times but still it only indirectly helps the main goal of resolving Geddon and by putting cards on top of your library it can even slow you down in this regard so even here I'd say it is no autoinclude.
Rock: I've covered everything above only that they play Discard and targeted removal instead of Counterspells. To buy time they may also be using Landdestruction instead of Stifle.
Threshold: They have counterspells but lack mass removal so on paper Academy Ruins is even better here than against Landstill however the problem is as follows. An early Trinisphere/Chalice (and to a lesser extend Smokestack or Crucible + Waste) is godly against them. Later these artifacts suffer from the problem that they can't help you against a resolved Tarmogoyf or even a threshed Mongoose before they beat you to a bloody pulp. Generally the Threshold player will use all his early ressources to resolve a threat (this also means protecting his mana to be able to cast it) then make sure this threat goes all the way. As I'm tired and don't want to go into detail here just imagine your opponent has a 4/5 Goyf and you have nothing on board yet. How would you want to spend your mana? Recurring your Trinisphere or casting Ghostly Prison? I'd say you don't want to recur anything (aside from Explosives) in the early game and if you get to the mid-late game it does hardly matter (aside from maybe recurring the missing piece to hardlock your opponent when you'd otherwise be waiting for a topdeck to seal the game).

The Wes
02-06-2008, 07:32 PM
I've never felt like Pendrell Mists is the way to go but I do run 2 tabernacle lands main. Yes Academy Ruins is nice to have, but is it worth the color splash? The color splash does help out if you run EE in the sb.

f|i[p]
02-06-2008, 08:04 PM
The splash has already been thought of a lot, look at other threads, try searching for it.Ug was considered just for intuition/gifts ungiven,academy ruins and life from the loam, this makes recurring tormods crypt,EE,keg, smokestack,chalice and the like. The thing that this work is with intuition or gifts ungiven, you can usually get what you need at that moment,may it be a the last missing lock piece you need or an answer to your current troubles. I think this engine makes the deck more consistent over all.but doesn't really help much on improving the bad match ups we have as much as we want.I found academy ruins quite slow as well unless you have your lock pieces already in place.

There is also sun tower, who focuses more on the lock, they too have been trying the blue splash just for intuition and academy ruins.

I have tried the red splash as well, which is in no way superior to mono white.

There has also been black splashes, which could offer braids, vindicate,nether void,volraths stronghold/instead of academy ruins, urborg,maybe even tombstalker or a better creature and some very good sideboard options.

Another is in the cand III which is mono brown which I have never gotten into yet.

I think one of the biggest problems this deck has is Pernicious Deed,which is the most used board sweeper today.

Although we can consider that it seems that alot of the DTB and decks to watch have 3 colors in them, and could probably exploit this dependency via wasteland, land destruction or the likes.

I think splashes are good innovations as long as the right choices of cards are made and most especially that you are dedicated to testing each splash/card and even bringing it to a tournament to really try it competitively.

Dark_Cynic87
02-07-2008, 12:06 AM
I will disagree with it's usefulness. EOT activations make it quite useful. Play the deck right and it's not a problem. I'm not going to force my views or my successes on anyone. I'm just saying what I think is a good choice. You don't have to agree.

Now. As for Sun Tower, it's newest and now most successful version is now G/u/r--it doesn't focus more on the lock, it focuses more on winning. In any possible way; it's extremely versatile. And red has perks that white does not. Rolling Earthquake is one of them. Goblin Welder is another, and Boil is a freaking MVP. Not to mention Barbarian Ring. All blue offers is Intuition and Academy Ruins; don't get me wrong, it's enough to warrant more blue lands than red, but red is still a great option. Better than white, I daresay.

The fact is that the current version of angelstax was made for playing against straight aggro. You don't have to agree, but with a list full of creature deterrents, any argument against this statement will not be heard by me. It needs to evolve. If it doesn't, it will become a list for the ages. Refusing to innovate is to choose losing. Look at the list at Worlds this year. It ran 8 'Geddon effects. That's innovation. The list runs well, also. It could be tweaked, but for the most part it was solid.

Obviously splashes have been considered, but has anyone chosen to do anything about it? Or have they dismissed it as a moment's passing fancy?

As to splashes, leave black/white to pox--or run monoblack stax. B/W stax hasn't been successful. While you are mentioning black cards, though, the most important one would be Leyline of the Void. The stax matchup would be rediculously in your favor, as would any deck running LftL or recursion of any kind. It would *help* against combo (although now they are going in a non-gy recursion direction), not to mention it would keep Goyf down to a minimal size.

I think you guys are dismissing Intuition, Mists and Ruins; blue in general entirely too soon.

Silverdragon
02-07-2008, 02:50 AM
@Dark_Cynic87 Your criticism sounds really harsh. Please believe me when I say that I am NOT dismissing blue and Ruins specifically "too soon". I have tested more games with various incarnations of this deck than I'd like to admit.
I think you are right when you say that with the current shell there is a lack of innovation and that this will lead to it fading from top 8's and ultimately out of tournaments.
However from a strategic point of view the gameplan of Stax is as strong as ever. Having a way to lock up the attack phase (Moat, Ensnaring Bridge + Hellbent or like in this deck Ghostly Prison + Armageddon) will win you the game against every non-combo deck out there. Even against combodecks you can stop them if they rely on EtW or generally somehow attacking for the win (CephBreakfast for example) without deviating from your main plan.
So I think the real question is: Is this pile of cards the optimal way to achieve this goal (no more attacks for the opponent) right now?
With a trend away from swarming attacks (Goblins, EtW) and towards single fatties (Goyf *cough*) I think the taxing plan has become very weak (which is why I haven't played this deck recently).
Interestingly though in addition to having good solutions for swarms white also has the best answers for single targets regardless of size or color.
Sadly the more I'm working on this and similar decks the closer I get to Landstill. I'm afraid we already have the next step in this decks' evolution when we look at Zvi's list from the World Championships. What do you think?

Dark_Cynic87
02-07-2008, 04:37 AM
Here's my reason for saying blueblueblueblueblue until I'm blue in the face (sorry, bad pun). I have severe problems with keeping a Magus on the board. From Gilded Drake to StP (let's face it, you don't always get a Chalice; I know people say "1cc spells--can't touch 'dis *bow-dowdowdow*, but sometimes it just doesn't play like that) one just won't stick, or you don't draw into them. I've taken apart my monowhite stax. It just isn't good enough as it is today.

I've been wanting to try out Pendrell Mists in place of Magii because it's not succeptable to critter removal (which everyone seems to be running due to goyf these days, StP being the most common that I see). I've been tempted to run Gilded Drakes to steal their goyfs and then O-Ring the Drake. I'm not that stupid, mmkay, but I've thought about it.

BTW, I apologize about the "harsh words", but as George Carlin once said, "Behind every cynic there's a disappointed realist." I'm seriously disappointed in the development of this deck. The innovation of Geddon/Tabernacle was wonderful. It's time to move on and find a way to pummel aggro-control and combo. It's a new age, and I'm ready to move on.

Here's one of my less creative ideas. I play sun tower a LOT. In fact, right now it's all I have put together. The reason I say this is because I really like the Words Enchantments. Words of Worship combined with Cephalid Coliseum. People say life gain doesn't win you games, but it can. This interaction coupled with an Ensnaring Bridge stops creatures, gains life (and of course you need a full set of Factories; they are necessary against a quick Mongoose), and if you wanted you could run Test of Endurance, although that's laughable. Just gain 20 life a turn. They'll quit. I promise. Remember when Wellwisher came out and people started building sick elf decks for around your kitchen tables? It'll be a lot like that. I know the argument for needles is there, so go back to the old version of Angelstax for game 2. Drop out the Words for Angels. Fast beatz; not to mention they'll sb out their critter hate. I don't have anything as far as lists go, but I'm working on it...

What I'm saying is that in my opinion, land-hate and mana taxing in general has become to be expected. It's time to change direction.

--DC

Arsenal
02-07-2008, 09:13 AM
In many ways, mono-blue and mono-white's often used/considered cards are the same in cost, form, and function.

Propaganda v. Ghostly Prison. No advantage/disadvantage when comparing them. The exact same card, just different colors.

Pendrell Mists v. Magus of the Tabernacle. This one is interesting. Pendrell Mists is far harder to remove, making it more of a guaranteed lockpiece. Magus of the Tabernacle, while semi-easy to remove, serves as an alternate win condition, and it can block your opponent's Goyf all day long (possibly forcing them to overextend). To me, I like Pendrell Mists more, but I don't like Pendrell Mists if it isn't backed up by a SOLID mass-land removal spell, which brings me to...

Parallax Tide v. Armageddon. Parallax Tide does allow you to play some neat tricks sometimes with your own lands, but more often than not, you'll be using Tide counters to remove your opponent's lands, causing their creatures to die from your Pendrell Mists. My problem is that Parallax Tide only offers a temporary solution, while Armageddon offers a more permanent one. Magus + Armageddon >> Pendrell Mists + Parallax Tide, imo.

Arcane Laboratory v. Rule of Law. Exact same card, no advantage/disadvantage. This card is SB material only.

White's win condition v. Blue's win condition. This varies too much, imo. I usually see Exalted Angel + Magii + Factories for white's kills. Blue... I don't know, Chronatog Totem? Vedalken Shackles? What does blue use to kill once the lock has been achieved? I don't even know.

Ruins + Intuition/TfK is cute, but is it necessary to win? With a deck this redundant, is tutoring really necessary?

Filipinho
02-07-2008, 09:45 AM
I really like the idea of using Chronatog Totem as win condition, and a "combo" for a Smokestack set with 2 counters. Maybe with Enlightened Tutor, since both are fetchable.

What do you think about Idyllic Tutor? is 2w too slow?

Arsenal
02-07-2008, 10:05 AM
Meh, with Trinisphere and Chalice out, I think 2W is do-able, but the question is, do you run it? Again, Stax lists are redundant; you run virtually 3-4 of every relevant card. Do you cut down on business spells in order to fit tutors to find business spells?

Chronatog Totem w/ Smokestack @ 1-2 counters is brutal, but so would Chronosavant. And, Chronosavant recurs, allowing you to let him be sacced to Smokestack, then brought back into play, giving your opponent two upkeeps to have with Smokestack. The weakness for both cards is that they depend on having a Smokestack out to really shine, otherwise, they're rather poor by themselves.

ImAChampion
02-07-2008, 10:11 AM
The weakness in this case is actually a strength. No one is going to figure out what you are trying to accomplish until it is to late. heh...people will probably think that you are playing Stasis or something if you try dropping the Tog. So if misdirection is the goal...this is a really good idea.

f|i[p]
02-07-2008, 10:45 AM
Nobody is dismissing anything at all, the moment you dismiss any thoughts on the deck, its like saying, there is no improvement needed.

@ this statement "It's time to move on and find a way to pummel aggro-control and combo. It's a new age, and I'm ready to move on"

I don't understand this statement, I think we already have good matchups against combo and aggro-control.


I just said my thoughts on the splashes and I still do testing on them as much as I can. And yeah, I did forget about to mention leyline, but leyline does belong to the sideboard as well.

Blue is a good color to splash,but is splashing blue really worth it?

Magus vs. Pendrell, although I can see pendrell mists being harder to remove than magus, Magus also stalls the game as he blocks as well as attacks. Against a goblin player they would rather see pendrell over magus, as that means they can slowly take you down.Thus you can only slow them down when you have ghostly prison/propaganda and pendrell mists together. Magus can stall them by itself.So I will still stand by my thought that Magus is a lot better than pendrell mists

Armageddon vs. parallax tide, armageddon is strictly better.

As for win conditions, I think there are lots blue and white has to offer, but white I think gives the faster win condition.

Intuition/ loam/ruins is quite good, and I tested it quite often against goblins. And tutoring is still good even if the deck is as redundant as you think. It gives you the option to actually get the missing piece to finish off your lock or finish the game, rather than drawing more trinispheres,chalices, crucible when you dont really want to see more of them at the given moment.

As for blue, intuition or gifts are the sole reason I would splash blue.

But I wouldn't change the fact that I still think that academy ruins is quite slow during my tests. But if ruins proves to be worth the inclusion, I would most likely want to have an artifact beater or blocker.

Arsenal
02-07-2008, 11:24 AM
Goblins has access to a tutorable and recurring Warren Weirding now, so Magus might be considerably weaker than before. I still like Pendrell over Magus for what the goal is; pay (1) on upkeep or sacrifice the creature. However, Magus allows for a win condition and Goyf blocker, but can be removed more easily. It's 50/50 imo. Their respective advantages/disadvantages almost cancel each other out.

If you run blue, and run Intuition/Gifts/TfK/tutor/draw/etc, you should run Ruins. That's the whole point. I can see where Intuition for crucial lockpiece can come in handy, so yeah, blue is crazy like that. However, if you chose to keep it on color (white), what about Enlightened Tutor? Obviously not the same as Intution, but worth testing at least?

Win conditions seem to be in white's favor slightly. However, as suggested by a member on mtgsalvation.com, mono-blue Stax playing Solemn Sirculamen, Shackles, and Triskelion/Triskelavus + Ruins seemed interesting.

SB cards that each color gives you seems to be even.

What of mono-white's Flagstones of Trokair? These help immensely with an active Smokestack, while blue seems to lack such a land.

The Wes
02-07-2008, 11:47 AM
I think people are dismissing the black white splash too quickly. It’s not just for pox. As was said black gives us vindicates, braids, engineered plague, volrath’s stronghold, shriekmaw, and leyline / yixlid jailor. I’m sure there is more but off the top of my head I’m getting a blank.

Flagstones of Trokair and Armageddon I think are two of the better reasons to keep at least the main color white. I tried enlightened tutor for a while and always had problems with it being 1 casting cost. Either I was paying too much and waiting a turn for an answer or not able to cast it all because of chalice. Just didn’t seem worth it to me.

Remember, you should be running Tabernacle of the Pendrel Vale as a 1 or 2 of in your lands anyway. Magus or the enchant are just for more help.

Blue does offer the ability to search for lock pieces and recur them, but in my testing I just didn’t find it worth it. Granted pretty much 99% of my testing has been on workstation so take that with a grain of salt.

Either way I’ll be taking my w/b stax to Hadley for their tourney in March like I took it to both Syracuse and Hadley in January. Sadly I don’t think we have that good of a game against landstill, 4 of my 5 rounds in Syracuse (I did beat it once and go to game 3 every other time), and in Hadley I just scrubbed out then went to the finals in the side event. In the finals I got stuck on 2 land game one while drawing 3 ghostly prisons in a row and in game 3 I also got stuck on 2 land while over the course of 7 turns drawing 3 vindicates and 3 armageddons. Having a splash or not doesn’t help with mana screw when you are running 25 lands.

Arsenal
02-07-2008, 12:04 PM
I feel as though we're already Wasteland-vulnerable (early game, pre-Crucible) w/ reliance on Tombs and Traitors. Flagstones laughs at Wasteland. With a splash, do you run duals/fetches/basics? What's the mana config look like, and how does fetches interact w/ Suppression Field out of the board?

The Wes
02-07-2008, 01:52 PM
Well, this is what I used at the last turny I went to:

4 x Ancient Tomb
4 x Scrubland
3 x Godless Shrine
2 x The Tabernacle of the Pendrel Vale
1 x Horizon Canopy
1 x Swamp
3 x Flagstones
4 x Wasteland
3 x Plains

You are still running 8 black sources, 12 if you include the mox diamonds. The only fetch lands I use are the Flagstones. It looses a little bit of the explosiveness from not having as many 2 or 3 mana opening turns, but I'm currently testing with City of Traitors:

-1 Godless Shrine
-1 Wasteland
-1 The Tabernacle of the Pendrel Vale
for
3 x City of Traitors

Arsenal
02-07-2008, 02:47 PM
That looks good. I too wouldn't use fetchlands, just Flagstones to grab duals; decent synergy of Flagstones + Ravnica duals (less expensive $$$ too). I would definitely run 3 City of Traitors + 4 Ancient Tomb; this is what allows Stax to consistently drop a lockpiece on turn 1/2 (crucial).

Dark_Cynic87
02-07-2008, 07:39 PM
ok, lots of responding to do:

ARSENAL:


Parallax Tide v. Armageddon. Parallax Tide does allow you to play some neat tricks sometimes with your own lands, but more often than not, you'll be using Tide counters to remove your opponent's lands, causing their creatures to die from your Pendrell Mists. My problem is that Parallax Tide only offers a temporary solution, while Armageddon offers a more permanent one. Magus + Armageddon >> Pendrell Mists + Parallax Tide, imo.

here's where you are off. I didn't say play only blue or only white. The idea would be to run some of each. and we're splashing. Not switching to blue. I'm just showing options. Hense the comparation of Rule of Law and Laboratory and Prison and Propaganda. I'm not saying anything other than "hey look, redundancy." Btw, I've always wondered why Lab/Law is only a SB card. It halts the use of digging into a Force with a Brainstorm. I like that. Also, a turn-1 drop of this would make goyf come down a lot slower.

With Parallax Tide, the idea is to make them overextend with lands (someone mentioned overextending with creatures). Remove theirs, they can't play around 3sphere so they drop more. Or, they can't pay for Prison/Propaganda/Tabernacle effects, so they drop more. Once they overextend, then you Geddon. It also gives you more time to draw into stuff. Not to mention you can sac it off to Stax the turn it's gonna go away.

as to blue killspells and white killspells, they should be the same. Factories. If you want, I suppose Faerie Conclave, but I don't like it as it requires blue. Don't worry about your killspell being a creature. That isn't a very good idea with Goyfs running around. Vindicate is one of the most popular cards right now anyway. May as well run a small recurrable killspell as opposed to a big one that stays gone...

And of course tutoring is necessary. If you run 3 Intuition, and 3 of each business spell along with Ruins, you basically run 6 of each. More redundancy = more consistancy. Cutting business spells for tutors is fine.

Wasteland will always be a problem. Here's an idea, needle it.

FILIPINHO:
Totem is bad. Idyllic Tutor only searches for enchantments, which is lousy considering your lock consists of artifacts. Why wouldn't you just run Intuition. And I'm laughing my pants off hearing people talk about Enlightened Tutor. Here's why. 1cc. Then, it puts the card on top of your library. So, if it's not countered, it puts a card you need on top of your library...remind you of a certain land? cough*ruins*coughcough.

I have never seen so many people against recurrable recursion.

THE WES:

Vindicate is old news, not to mention W/x stax got a better card. Oblivion Ring. Still a sorcery-speed 3cc, only 1 color, and its able to come down a turn faster thanx to the double colorless in the casting cost. Better yet, it's a permanent, so if you remove a critter or land, just toss it to Smokestack the upkeep before you blast their lands. Keep using fetches, as they are also waste-proof. They shuffle your deck, and go off when you need them to, as opposed to waiting for a second one, wasting it yourself, or them wasting it. When you hit a land-pocket, you can reshuffle for better topdecks. And you still run S. Fields? What do they help with? Thresh, an already positive matchup (besides the counterspells)? Wastelands that you yourself use?

FLIP:
Leyline is NOT a sb card. Maindeck it. It's the most powerful card you can get in your opening hand. Hinders some builds of Storm, Thresh rolls over to it (if you can play around it without putting to much variety in your g/y), Ichorid becomes nothingness to you (just mull until you hit one). Loam builds die, which means Loam builds of 43 lands becomes so much easier.


@ this statement "It's time to move on and find a way to pummel aggro-control and combo. It's a new age, and I'm ready to move on"

I don't understand this statement, I think we already have good matchups against combo and aggro-control.

You do have a decent matchup, but if they have any experience at all against stax, they know what's important to counter. Magii and Smokestack. Ensnaring Bridge against Sun Tower. Chalice at 1/2. To a lesser extent, 3sphere (can play around it as long as they don't let an Armageddon Resolve, which they can't let happen anyways as they run very few actual mana-producing lands). I'm saying that we need to make their counterspells less effective. A lot less effective. Its what is keeping them in the upper tier of the metagame.


/end responses.
-----------------------------------------------------------------


Redundancy is what drives this deck. I'm saying, let's get redundant. 6 non-land Tabernacle effects, 2 Tabernacles. 8 'Geddon effects (I play 5 geddons and 3 Tides in a test-build I'm running; may up to 6/2 ratio), and then top it off with tutors. I was playing this deck against a combo deck the other day. They EtW'ed for 18 turn 1. I dropped a Tabernacle (land). Player Lost is what my PC screen said; same thing has happened when someone else EtW'ed for 16 goblins, only to be met by a Diamond and City into a Ghostly Prison. Tendrils is harder to beat, but you COULD run Stifles in the SB. Or Orim's Chant. They get storm up to so high, you Chant. Or, they Burning Wish/Infernal Tutor and you Chant. You only need them turn 1, so it doesn't matter after that; With E. Tutor it does. After that, you've dropped a lock piece, either 3sphere or Chalice. Once the chalice is dropped, it's no big deal that they are unplayable, because you just won.

Also, a card often considered a silver bullet would be eligible for the deck. Meddling Mage. 2cc makes it iffy against Goyf players, but in the SB, naming Tendrils would be good (I know they run wipe aways, but still, buys you time to get down 3sphere/Chalice).

It's a serious consideration, and I'm working on a list. It may take another week or 2 before I'm ready to reveal it, but it's coming along.

--DC

emidln
02-07-2008, 07:50 PM
Blue splashes automatically have two win conditions available to them, and either works. The first is Mishra's Factory beats. If your opponent has no permanents in play and can't cast spells, 2 a turn will get it done. By this point in the game, it'll likely even be 4-6 a turn. The next is decking by Academy Ruins recursion. Recur TCrypt, EE, or Chalice (you'll need a chalice at an even number) every turn until they deck. This is obvious worse than attacking ftw, but it is a viable win condition as long as you enforce slow play rules and know your deck inside and out.

Arsenal
02-07-2008, 09:41 PM
Dark_Cynic87 -

You laugh at Enlightened Tutor for mono-white builds, inferring that the 1cc makes it unplayable, yet further down your post you suggest using Stifle and/or Orim's Chant? Please explain your logic.

RE: Parallax Tide. I don't know what kind of bad players you test against, but NOBODY I've come across overextends after I remove 2-3 of their lands; they usually wait me out (that whole fading thing, you know). You say Parallax Tide allows you to draw into stuff; inferring that Armageddon does not (WTF?). Please explain you logic here too. Also, 2UU isn't exactly a splash.

Yes, Wasteland is a minor problem in the early game, and how astute of you to tell me to Needle it... but again, according to you, 1cc makes it no good (see your response to Enlightened Tutor for mono-white builds). Also, I highly doubt you'd run Needle maindeck (if at all), which is what I'm talking about; we can discuss SB later.

Win conditions for blue and white are not the same. Not taking mutual win conditions into account (Factories), what makes blue's kill (Ruins + something) better than white's kill (Exalted Angel + Magi)? I don't understand this logic of "they should be the same". If that's true, why play one color over the other? What win condition advantages do I gain with splashing blue or splashing white?

I think you need to re-evaluate your thinking of most of what you posted. Wanting to play Needle, Stifle, Chant... but brushing E. Tutor aside because of 1cc?

The Wes
02-07-2008, 09:47 PM
I can’t see Law/Laboratory as a mainboard card. I don’t like limiting myself to dropping a mox on my second turn and just passing. Besides, lots of agro decks don’t need to play more than one creature each turn, they can vial or lackey in pleny more. Besides lots of decks can have a 3/4 evil green creature turn two, and that’s still a decent clock when they can play a counter a turn to stop your threats. Being able to play two spells in a turn lets you get around counters often when you have your trini out to slow them down.

Are we supposed to run needles main? If so what do we take out in place of them? Or when we side them what about all the times that chalice stops them from being played?

When ever I’ve tried Intuition I always seemed to just rather have 4 of my business spells instead. Often Intuition just helped make their Goyf bigger and allowed them to still counter my one spell I kept.

I’m a big fan of a few different win conditions since I’ve been seeing more and more extirpates being brought in against me. My wastelands and mishra’s are hit a lot when I don’t have a chalice set at 1.

I agree with Idyllic Tutor not being the best. I’ve been trying to use it in different versions of stax but so far not that great of results.
I think tide works best when you run stifles main and that’s just a different deck.

Sure vindicate is old news, doesn’t mean its bad( run a combination of both vindicates and o rings between main and sb), the stax themselves are old news. I know in several situations oblivion ring is better, but with every deck you run into bringing in ways of destroying artifacts and enchants its not always as permanent of an answer as I’d like. Also any deck that can support the EEs is going to be trying to set them at 3 to take out your crucibles, prisons enchant, trinis, o rings, and labs if you are running them.

How are you supposed to know when you have hit a land pocket in order to break the fetch at the correct time? We don’t have ways of looking at the top cards of our library. The chances of hitting a land after you fetch is only slightly less than hitting a land befor you fetch. I’m not saying that fetches are bad in all builds, just that the reasoning you used there doesn’t quite work.

Lets see, I bring s. fields in against any deck that runs loam and cycling lands, equipment decks like fairy and dragon stompy (absolutely kills jitte), and landstill at least. It hurts cycle lands, equipment, man lands, fetches, deeds, EEs, vial, ports, and lots of other things. Yes please, I’d like it in the sb.

There are decks that can run Leyline main, but this isn’t one of them. You add leyline main what are you going to take out? Lots of storm doesn’t care about it, it doesn’t bother many agro decks, and doesn’t really help the lock. Yes loam dies to it, but loam runs green which I am pretty sure can get rid of an enchant given a little bit of time. Besides, how do you know if you need to mull into a leyline game one? Game two sure you know, but then you could have just sb’d it in anyway. Evem woth it out thresh is still going to counter stuff to make their Gyof bigger.

Decks that go EtW’s against us deserve to loose. Its never been that great of a threat against stax. White alone has the tools to deal with it as Cartman showed. I’ve always thought that chalice for 0 and 1 to be the strongest plays gainst most storm combo decks, doesn’t that get in the way of the stifle/orim’s chant doing its job? I’d rather stop their mana excel from the beginning than try and wait around.

Any color, regardless of splash can have Mishra’s beats as a win con, so that’s rather besides the point. I don’t’ think we should be looking for decking as a reliable means to win. Sure if we win game 1 going to time game two is no problem, but what do we do if we loose game 1? Hope we can deck them game 2 and 3? I hope you play where there are 2 hour rounds. You sometimes go to time anyway.

I’m definitely not saying don’t try it, I love white stax with splashes. I do see though how parts of the deck might not run the best together.

f|i[p]
02-07-2008, 11:03 PM
@ meddling mage--- Rule of law or arcane lab is better than meddling mage. It takes them only 1 turn to bounce mage and go off, as it takes them 2 for rule of law or arcane lab. Also, if you would want another interesting sideboard against combo, you should try mana maze, its amazing, almost better than rule of law. This also offers you the ability to go Intuition then armageddon(considering you already have mana maze in play).That means your armageddon and intuition cannot be countered at all.

@leyline being maindeck material--- I'll leave you to your thoughts on that. I however don't see it as maindeck material at all. I don't want to discuss this further as it won't help the deck in anyway.

@ vindicate--- Although oblivion ring is a permanent is better than vindicate at times, It cannot hit lands. At times I played with the W/b version I had Vindicate had its uses on stalling as well, it was good with armageddon,and a full set of wastelands to back it up. Color screwing your opponent wins you games at times.

@enlightened tutor--- although its good and can fetch you artifacts and enchantment, chalice for 1 will stop it cold, which you always would want to have early game, or even a trinisphere early would delay it a few turns. Intuition/gifts is strictly better as It can get you creatures, armageddon, artifacts, enchantments, lands and whatever you need for the moment regardless of what it may be. If you do want to test it, you'll see that Intuition/gifts is a lot better.

@ emidln---I know you are one of the most experience stax player around in the source, have you won a tourney game by decking the opponent consistently ? with the time given to you in tourneys? There are some players who do love to stall and you eventually end up in a draw. I get sick of these people, I'm not even sure if they are thinking or just acting like they are thinking. Oh and this is not an offensive question at all. I'm simply curious.

@ blue win conditions--- I think they are still slow. I even considered Meloku at one time, but never tested her at all. She seems to be good with armageddon,wasteland and can help with city of traitors if you drop it early. Gives you token blockers and smokestack sacrifices.

@Idyllic tutor---I think this is a good card for enchantress. As for stax, you can't really tutor for anything, ghostly prison and possibly some sideboard cards if ever. I don't think they belong in stax at all, unless we do run more enchantments.

@fetchlands--- If I were to splash, Id still run fetchlands, maybe 2-3. Just ways of thinning the deck or even getting a basic land into play.

@running blue for splash--- If I were to run blue, Id definitely have 3 intuitions/gifts,1 academy ruins and mana maze on my sideboard.(I would probably even put a hint of green just for loam)

@Dark Cynic87--I don't understand why your putting so much emphasis on sideboard cards against combo.Do you play in a combo heavy metagame? We already have a good match against combo.Although I understand and I know we can play stifle or even orims chant against combo, since you can use it after they do bounce your chalice @1. I ran extirpate on my sideboard for my W/b version as a 4 of just to make sure I take out certain lands with wasteland/vindicate and extirpate them away for good . Extirpate however is a different story as it is very versatile card, it helps against combo and landstill, thresh and a lot of other deck as well. I don't understand why you are focusing on the good matchups rather than the bad ones. You should be concerned about Landstill, loam and the rock variants.

emidln
02-08-2008, 12:25 AM
There isn't actually a need for other win conditions besides factory and ruins recursion. Every other deck ever will outdraw you. They will break a fetch, brainstorm, sac a tribe elder, something to gain CA over you. Then you'll deck them assuming you're not up against Battle of Wits. Stax wins the game when it resolves its stax lock. That should always be the first and foremost win condition because it beats everything without Simian Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, or Ichorid. If your opponent has no permanents in play and can't play spells, your win condition doesn't matter. It doesn't take more than a couple seconds for an opponent with no options to draw and discard. Most judges will enforce this. This allows you to use the Stax lock itself to get the win through decking, or allows you to eventually find a factory and kill them. In my opinion, Exalted Angel shouldn't be considered as a win condition as much as another bomb lock pieces that accelerates the effectiveness of your other lock pieces (Chalice, Trinisphere, Smokestack, etc) by making your opponent deal with a large threat. The issue is that this works against the Pendrell permanents by requiring mana up and would also work against Ensnaring Bridge. If you want to play bomb-ish lock pieces, you should really look into Words of Wilding/Sylvan Library because they are harder to answer (you need more than the widely played STP) and they synergize with Smokestack better.

To summarize:

- I don't believe speed is a factor in considering win conditions for stax if played properly.
- Given this belief, I believe no extra pieces outside of Factory and Ruins are needed to win matches
- If you do want extra win conditions, something that better synergizes with Smokestack would appear to be stronger than Angel.

Dark_Cynic87
02-08-2008, 12:29 AM
Dark_Cynic87 -

You laugh at Enlightened Tutor for mono-white builds, inferring that the 1cc makes it unplayable, yet further down your post you suggest using Stifle and/or Orim's Chant? Please explain your logic.

RE: Parallax Tide. I don't know what kind of bad players you test against, but NOBODY I've come across overextends after I remove 2-3 of their lands; they usually wait me out (that whole fading thing, you know). You say Parallax Tide allows you to draw into stuff; inferring that Armageddon does not (WTF?). Please explain you logic here too. Also, 2UU isn't exactly a splash.

Yes, Wasteland is a minor problem in the early game, and how astute of you to tell me to Needle it... but again, according to you, 1cc makes it no good (see your response to Enlightened Tutor for mono-white builds). Also, I highly doubt you'd run Needle maindeck (if at all), which is what I'm talking about; we can discuss SB later.

Win conditions for blue and white are not the same. Not taking mutual win conditions into account (Factories), what makes blue's kill (Ruins + something) better than white's kill (Exalted Angel + Magi)? I don't understand this logic of "they should be the same". If that's true, why play one color over the other? What win condition advantages do I gain with splashing blue or splashing white?

I think you need to re-evaluate your thinking of most of what you posted. Wanting to play Needle, Stifle, Chant... but brushing E. Tutor aside because of 1cc?

I already explained the reason for the E. Tutor vs. Stifle/Chant. You board them in against combo. If you drop a chalice at 1 before they go off, you're fine. If you don't and they go off either on the draw or turn 2, you have a better chance at stopping their combo by running 4x more answers and surviving to get a 3sphere down. Later in the game it won't matter. They (chants/stifles) turn into dead draws, but then again, if you run Intuition, it's not that big of a deal.

Needle is an answer and the best one there is so far to Wasteland (although stifle/Trickbind comes to mind yet again...). Sometimes you lose. That's how it works. With Needles post-board, you are set. If they feel the need to waste removal on a Needle, fine by me.

Parallax Tide: I'm not being smart with anyone, why are you? The point is to learn WHEN to play your cards and WHAT to target. Keep them at 2 lands until you can Intuition or draw into a 'Geddon. Buys time while you still have all your lands. That's the point. You have your lands, they don't. Even if you remove 2 or 3 lands, it really hurts with a 3sphere out. Stops you from getting things countered that they don't want to hit the board. If you don't like it, just say so and don't use it. And let it go. I'm not telling you how or what to play, I'm aggressively representing blue, nothing more (and that's saying something, as I don't like to play blue. Evar).

Needle (again): Of course you run P. Needle as a 4-of in the board. Earlier I asked a dumb question, which was what people still ran S. Fields for. I completely spaced P. Deed (I forgot loam was affected, also). My bad. I don't see them hardly ever. P. Needle is a necessary element in the board. See, there are 2 things you can learn from first game. What they play, and how well they play it. Deed (Funkbrew/GWB Goyf shit) is one of the hardest games for this deck. If you see a lot of them, I'd run both S. Fields and Needles. Check that, I'd stop playing Stax. Here's the thing about being a martyr: You still die.

So maybe my initial evaluation was alright...What do you think?

Moving on...

The Wes:

Don't run needles main. You probably aren't sure what they're playing, so naming something is a shot in the dark. Also, they will be mostly dead draws as a lot of decks don't really have a target other than Wastes or Fetches. While wasteland is a solid, safe bet, I don't think it warrants MD'ed Needles. Not to mention Chalice at 1 is almost always a better choice.

If extirpate is becoming a problem, a new manland was printed that would do well with Factories as a 2/2 split. I've also always been a supporter of a singleton Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai. Let's you up the counters on stax to 2.

Law/Lab was just an idea I'm still testing...Mixed results so far.

I agree that EE is a big threat to the safety of your lock. That's yet another reason I'm advocating Academy Ruins. I like it when people help prove my points...

Fetchlands clearing up land pockets: My bad, too used to sun tower to be objective here. I'm used to seeing the top 5 cards of my library every turn...

I play against a lot of combo and a lot of Thresh. Aggro is gone here. Utterly shut down by Goyf beatings all around. Well, that and bears being 2/2 chump blockers from hell.


Any color, regardless of splash can have Mishra’s beats as a win con, so that’s rather besides the point.

No. That IS the point. Mishra's Factory is your kill-spell. Exalted Angel sux.

and the final contestant....

Flip:

Mana Maze looks like a winner. I like it. Thx. Meloku is kind of a cool idea. I guess it's an out against Extirpate when you are about to 'Geddon...I don't see many other reasons to play it unless you are wanting to up Stax to 2 and still have something to swing with. Maybe, but I still say recurrable kill-spells are where it's at.

Lastly, I stress on the Combo matchup for 2 reasons. First, it's where the format is headed. Second, I know first (I play 4-color) and second hand(played against it) how powerful it is and how important the matchup is and will be very soon.

I respond to all the points, these last 2 posts have been tedious enough. I hit the important ones, though.

emidln
02-08-2008, 01:13 AM
;206229']
@ emidln---I know you are one of the most experience stax player around in the source, have you won a tourney game by decking the opponent consistently ? with the time given to you in tourneys? There are some players who do love to stall and you eventually end up in a draw. I get sick of these people, I'm not even sure if they are thinking or just acting like they are thinking. Oh and this is not an offensive question at all. I'm simply curious.

I've actually won a couple tourney games by decking. Usually I set it up with Words of Wilding + Smokestack + Trinisphere, sometimes with Ensnaring Bridge if the lock is mid to late game. In the past, my primary win condition was Time Vault + Smokestack + Trinisphere. You just need to call a judge to watch for slow play if your opp doesn't concede. Once they get to the point where they can't play anything, they shouldn't take more than a moment to draw and play a land/discard. As far as manually decking an opponent, I've done it to a Solidarity player with Boil combined with his Extirpates. He managed to extirpate my Mishra's Factories and Barbarian Rings and at the time I only played Factory/B.ring as a win condition. He had drawn more cards than me and I kept him locked under 3sphere with boil during his combo turn. After that, Smokestack wrapped up the game so he couldn't do anything other than draw, discard. I won in about 7 minutes.

f|i[p]
02-08-2008, 03:04 AM
@emidln--- So you are actually saying that we should focus more on lock and win conditions that would have more synergy with the deck iteself as a whole, rather than having exalted angels?

I have actually tried W/U/g variant and thought that it wasn't enough,as I constantly had problems when i had words of wilding without library. I had to wait for intuition/gifts or the wilding itself to be able to complete it. But at that time I didn't really exclude exalted angels yet. Ill probably have to rebuild that deck and test it again without the angles and see how it goes from there.

But as comparison, does suntower have the same bad matchups as mono white stax?

@dark cynic87--- Meloku is just an idea, I havn't tested her at all. But mana maze rocks...Its really strong against combo, and very versatile as you can use them against landstill and counter heavy decks.

emidln
02-08-2008, 03:30 AM
;206257']
But as comparison, does suntower have the same bad matchups as mono white stax?

We learned to sb 4 Pithing Needle a year and a half ago to beat Deed and have boarded Welder as at minimum at 3-of until very recently when the deck moved into G/u. I think I even wrote a primer including the tech. As for bad machups, the current list's bad matchups include Goblins. In the past, I developed versions that beat Goblins pretty easily, but they include cards that are dead except against slow combo (Ichorid, Breakfast) and Goblins (like Aether Flash and Rolling Earthquake). Outside of playing lots of needles and academy ruins, there isn't really anything that would affect one matchup more than others. I play 3-4 Intuition to tutor for lock pieces I'm missing or setup the Loam/Ruins engine sometimes. Really, there is no reason that you couldn't play the "sun tower" tech in a white list, since all that's really unique about it is extensive use of Sylvan Library. The real difference is that I forgo LD in favor of redundancy and potential busted interactions involving Words of Wilding. I think you'd go like -5 geddon effects, -4 prison, -1 crucible, -2 magus , +3 intuition, +4 sylvan library, +3 words of wilding, +1 loam, +1 ee and adjust the manabase to from Geddon Stax to Sun Tower.

As far as effectiveness, Geddon effects make the Landstill and Mono White Control matchups slightly easier preboard and the anti-aggro package of the current Geddon Stax lists are better at stopping swarming aggro like ETW or Goblins than the G/u Tower list. The Tower package is really strong against discard and random aggro-control (UGR Thrash, UGB Tog/Thresh, UGB Madness, Baseruption, etc aka the decks can spell snare a chalice @ 1 and then protect stuff that would kill their quick goyf to steal victories from you). At the same time Sylvan Library + Words of Wilding is easy to setup with essentially 7 copies of one and 6 copies of the other with Sylvan Library helping to find Words of Wilding. It's also extremely difficult for most decks to deal with.

As far as Words of Wilding without Sylvan Library, I still love it. I frequently use it as a combo win condition or to maintain Smokestack @ 2 with a Crucible going. The combo win condition is Words of Wilding + Smokestack + Trinisphere (sometimes aided by Ensnaring Bridge). I don't have much trouble finding Library between 3 Intuition and 4 Library though.

Arsenal
02-08-2008, 08:50 AM
I think I'm not on the same page as people; I'm talking about builds/card for mono-colored builds (mono-blue or mono-white), everyone seems to be talking splashes of various colors. I don't see the need for splashing when similar cards are offered on-color in mono-builds (Oblivion Ring v. Vindicate for example).

Until we get back onto how to optimize mono-colored Stax lists, I'll sit back and observe you guys.

f|i[p]
02-09-2008, 03:09 AM
@arsenal--- we are just trying to compare and see if splashing is worth a try since right now monowhite does have a lot of problems that cannot simply be answered by mono colored stax, hence we are looking for a splash in hopes of improving the deck as itself against the problematic matchups.


@edmiln--- the thing is, the moment I take off the armageddon,and prison, And put all those pieces together, Wouldnt I be playing suntower already? I really think armageddon should not be taken off as It is what makes mono white very good. Ill try to reconfigure and fit in some pieces and see what I can and cannot take off.

melie
02-15-2008, 05:29 AM
Hi, first post on here.

I'm playing white prison since Titania Songs decks where awesome. (still have my first version build :p)
Now it's true this deck is losing some of it's shine cause of the meta shifts. The main thing I think that needs to be changed is the kind of creature control. The current build is much to focused on mass creature decks. I don't think this is as efficient as it once was now that Tarmogoyf roams free in Legacy. Now this isn't that hard to adept to..
You can easily play Moat instead of Magus/Ghoslty prison. This stops allmost all relevant creatures in the Legacy format. Now, for the other slot, why don't play Ensnaring bridge? I'm testing this at the moment in combination with 2 Bottled Cloisters and it's aweome. Can drop his hand down to 2-3 cards before you hit turn 4..
I would still recoment to keep 1 of the taxing things. So for example;

2 Bottled Cloister (don't have to, but I like the card draw. My meta has lots of control & black discard)
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Magus of the Tabernacle

or

4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Moat

I just think that playing 8 taxing effects is to much in this meta and should be replaced with 4 taxing 4 complete denial effects.
Any thoughts on this?

Jaiminho
02-15-2008, 11:13 AM
Cloister is only any good after you have locked your opponent, since they can destroy it and you will lose your hand.

I do like Ensnaring Bridge, but it conflicts with Exalted Angel, so I'd guess one has to choose between those two.

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed here already.

Nihil Credo
02-16-2008, 09:17 PM
I'll share: I'm testing a Kor Haven in this deck. In theory it should work well - it has a nice synergy with taxing effects, but most importantly with those turns where you have a partial lock in place and just don't draw anything relevant to spend your mana on.

Jaynel
02-16-2008, 10:40 PM
That doesn't seem bad. It's like a Maze of Ith that adds mana in the early game.

Bane of the Living
03-14-2008, 07:57 PM
ok, lots of responding to do:

ARSENAL:



here's where you are off. I didn't say play only blue or only white. The idea would be to run some of each. and we're splashing. Not switching to blue. I'm just showing options. Hense the comparation of Rule of Law and Laboratory and Prison and Propaganda. I'm not saying anything other than "hey look, redundancy." Btw, I've always wondered why Lab/Law is only a SB card. It halts the use of digging into a Force with a Brainstorm. I like that. Also, a turn-1 drop of this would make goyf come down a lot slower.

With Parallax Tide, the idea is to make them overextend with lands (someone mentioned overextending with creatures). Remove theirs, they can't play around 3sphere so they drop more. Or, they can't pay for Prison/Propaganda/Tabernacle effects, so they drop more. Once they overextend, then you Geddon. It also gives you more time to draw into stuff. Not to mention you can sac it off to Stax the turn it's gonna go away.

as to blue killspells and white killspells, they should be the same. Factories. If you want, I suppose Faerie Conclave, but I don't like it as it requires blue. Don't worry about your killspell being a creature. That isn't a very good idea with Goyfs running around. Vindicate is one of the most popular cards right now anyway. May as well run a small recurrable killspell as opposed to a big one that stays gone...

And of course tutoring is necessary. If you run 3 Intuition, and 3 of each business spell along with Ruins, you basically run 6 of each. More redundancy = more consistancy. Cutting business spells for tutors is fine.

Wasteland will always be a problem. Here's an idea, needle it.

FILIPINHO:
Totem is bad. Idyllic Tutor only searches for enchantments, which is lousy considering your lock consists of artifacts. Why wouldn't you just run Intuition. And I'm laughing my pants off hearing people talk about Enlightened Tutor. Here's why. 1cc. Then, it puts the card on top of your library. So, if it's not countered, it puts a card you need on top of your library...remind you of a certain land? cough*ruins*coughcough.

I have never seen so many people against recurrable recursion.

THE WES:

Vindicate is old news, not to mention W/x stax got a better card. Oblivion Ring. Still a sorcery-speed 3cc, only 1 color, and its able to come down a turn faster thanx to the double colorless in the casting cost. Better yet, it's a permanent, so if you remove a critter or land, just toss it to Smokestack the upkeep before you blast their lands. Keep using fetches, as they are also waste-proof. They shuffle your deck, and go off when you need them to, as opposed to waiting for a second one, wasting it yourself, or them wasting it. When you hit a land-pocket, you can reshuffle for better topdecks. And you still run S. Fields? What do they help with? Thresh, an already positive matchup (besides the counterspells)? Wastelands that you yourself use?

FLIP:
Leyline is NOT a sb card. Maindeck it. It's the most powerful card you can get in your opening hand. Hinders some builds of Storm, Thresh rolls over to it (if you can play around it without putting to much variety in your g/y), Ichorid becomes nothingness to you (just mull until you hit one). Loam builds die, which means Loam builds of 43 lands becomes so much easier.



You do have a decent matchup, but if they have any experience at all against stax, they know what's important to counter. Magii and Smokestack. Ensnaring Bridge against Sun Tower. Chalice at 1/2. To a lesser extent, 3sphere (can play around it as long as they don't let an Armageddon Resolve, which they can't let happen anyways as they run very few actual mana-producing lands). I'm saying that we need to make their counterspells less effective. A lot less effective. Its what is keeping them in the upper tier of the metagame.


/end responses.
-----------------------------------------------------------------


Redundancy is what drives this deck. I'm saying, let's get redundant. 6 non-land Tabernacle effects, 2 Tabernacles. 8 'Geddon effects (I play 5 geddons and 3 Tides in a test-build I'm running; may up to 6/2 ratio), and then top it off with tutors. I was playing this deck against a combo deck the other day. They EtW'ed for 18 turn 1. I dropped a Tabernacle (land). Player Lost is what my PC screen said; same thing has happened when someone else EtW'ed for 16 goblins, only to be met by a Diamond and City into a Ghostly Prison. Tendrils is harder to beat, but you COULD run Stifles in the SB. Or Orim's Chant. They get storm up to so high, you Chant. Or, they Burning Wish/Infernal Tutor and you Chant. You only need them turn 1, so it doesn't matter after that; With E. Tutor it does. After that, you've dropped a lock piece, either 3sphere or Chalice. Once the chalice is dropped, it's no big deal that they are unplayable, because you just won.

Also, a card often considered a silver bullet would be eligible for the deck. Meddling Mage. 2cc makes it iffy against Goyf players, but in the SB, naming Tendrils would be good (I know they run wipe aways, but still, buys you time to get down 3sphere/Chalice).

It's a serious consideration, and I'm working on a list. It may take another week or 2 before I'm ready to reveal it, but it's coming along.

--DC

So you've been here on the source for a whopping month now and you've decided our tried and true stax configurations are obsolete? Where do you play legacy? There arent too many actual legacy metagames for you to get your playtesting. In the US theres basically MA, VA, and NY to go to good Legacy tournaments. Where do you play??

I ask people like Breath Weapon this (who still has not answered me) because it gives what your saying a certain amount of credit. Id be more prone to buy your blue splash innovations if you had some tournaments under your belt or actually, if I hadnt tried it myself. But I have, look up Tide Stax. I started the thread.

You say alot that says to me, "I havent played this deck as much as I claim." For example, Lab/Law is only a sb card because its only good against Storm Combo. Your saying its so good because your opponent cant Brainstorm into Force but you could just drop 3sphere... If you have a beef with Counterspells you should be playing Defense Grid anyways. Lab/Law does nothing about goyf. I dont get what your saying.

Parallax Tide is bad. Its an enchantment that can be nuked to get lands back unlike Geddon. It costs :u::u: which the deck has no intention to produce for a card worse than one it already plays. It can be Pithing Needled, geddon cant. Your opponent can also just wait for the sucktastic mechanic of fading to make your Tide just a worse Tangle Wire. Tide is only ever good if you have Stifle for it.

Idylic Tutor is terrible. Its far too slow whether or not it doesnt cost one mana to avoid Chalice. Its narrow, it only gets enchantments. What are you gonna get thats worth 2 turns waiting for? Pendril Mists isnt that good and Ghostly Prison is a stall tactic you were suppose to play it early. Removing business spells for slow ass tutors is actually not ok sorry.

Intuition is also bad because it puts cards in your yard for goyfs, doesnt actually get you the card you want unless you throw 2 other copies in the shitter, and its not a perm, a golden rule for this deck. Oh yea its also blue.

Fetch Lands are bad in the deck. You cant Needle Heaths/Strands if you play them, they can be Stifled, and the life loss can really add up with Tombs. If you want to avoid Waste play the deck better, drop basic plains then follow with the powerfull colorless lands the turn you want to play a bomb so you can at least get a use out of them.

"When you hit a land-pocket, you can reshuffle for better topdecks."

This doesnt even make sense. How do you know when your in a land pocket? After you've drawn 2-3 in a row? How are you sure there's another land after that and not finally a spell? You'd rather possibly shuffle into more lands?

Suppression Field is far from obsolete in this deck if thats what your trying to say. Cephalid Breakfast cant combo with it in play. More decks than Thresh use Fetchlands, this is Legacy! Goblins has Fanatic, 7-8 fetchs, AETHER VIAL, and Seige Gang for it to crunch. It keeps Deed from going off sometimes since more of your opponents need to play it and pass the turn anyways. Having to pay 2 more to blow up your 3 drops is pricey and sometimes not possible if your Suppression Fields are also stopping their Fetch Lands. That can give you alot of time to O-Ring the Deed.

Suppression Field is also great against Wasteland which is good against you. You honestly dont need to care that Wasting a land would cost you two mana since you play Geddon and your Wastes are reserved for problematic lands such as Mishras Factories.



Leyline is NOT a sb card. Maindeck it. It's the most powerful card you can get in your opening hand. Hinders some builds of Storm, Thresh rolls over to it (if you can play around it without putting to much variety in your g/y), Ichorid becomes nothingness to you (just mull until you hit one). Loam builds die, which means Loam builds of 43 lands becomes so much easier.

This is another I know jack about the format statement.

Leyline is really only worth running against Ichorid and Breakfast in the first place. Your having a great Thresh match already and oh yea, your not even playing black. Does that mean you only intend on casting this card from your opener? Thats all this deck needs, more dead top decks.. Mox Diamond is the most powerfull card you can get in your opener, not a narrow off color enchantment.

kabal
03-14-2008, 10:03 PM
In the US theres basically MA, VA, and NY to go to good Legacy tournaments.

Not that the comments were directed at me but ... wow, you are so wrong. Speaking purely for GA, we have WEEKLY Legacy events that ALWAYS have 20+ people. Granted, you did say "good" and # of people does not necessarily equate to good, but I can ensure you that the decks and people piloting them are just as good as your town.

Bane of the Living
03-14-2008, 10:34 PM
Not that the comments were directed at me but ... wow, you are so wrong. Speaking purely for GA, we have WEEKLY Legacy events that ALWAYS have 20+ people. Granted, you did say "good" and # of people does not necessarily equate to good, but I can ensure you that the decks and people piloting them are just as good as your town.

Im not trying to knock anyones metagames those are just the regions that have the 40+ tournaments for the most parts. Id love to see some large scale events from GA shaping the metagame forums.

Joon
03-15-2008, 03:54 PM
I'd like to hear your opinion on my list.

Lands:

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tombs
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
6 Plains

Critter

4 Windborn Muse
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

Lock/Disruptionpieces

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Smokestack
4 Armageddon

Manasafety & Acceleration

4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond

Sideboard

4 Pithing Needle
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Exalted Angel
3 Jotun Grunt

At the moment I'm testing if Canopy is better than Flagstone # 4, as nearly always when I draw it gets discarded into Mox. But in the later game it's a far better Topdeck than Flagstones and the synergy between Crucible and Canopy is clear I guess.
Muse is used as Ghostly Prison # 5-8, and due the fact I'm running more creatures now I cut the Magi down to 3 as one is always enough because I'm often not able to pay the Upkeepcost of two Magi. On the other hand, two Muse don't cost anything.
The Sideboard is a bit unusual I guess. Needles are clear, targets as well. Ring is in the SB as I don't want to cut something from the maindeck for it. Exalted Angel is boarded against Aggro/Burn decks und together with Grunt they are a nice mini "man-plan" which can hit the Controlplayer hard after they boardet out nearly all creaturehate after G1.

Nihil Credo
03-15-2008, 04:24 PM
I've never liked Windborn Muse in testing. It's as fragile as Exalted Angel, which is a bigger investment but one that wins you the game instead of sometimes stopping you from losing. Even against beatdown, what would you rather have - your opponent unable to attack due to infinite Propaganda effects while you swing for two, or him attacking with one creature per turn while you swing back for 4 + 4 life? If you resolve an Armageddon, even without a Crucible for fast recovery on your side, it's even better.

The one substantial advantage of Muse is that it removes your need for double-white mana, so you need 1-2 less white sources in the deck. But with the threat of Angel added in, I've fared nicely with 3 Factories and 2 Wasteland (actually, I activate the Factories so rarely I'm thinking of going down to two).


Oh, and I forgot to post about the idea I mentioned a few weeks ago: Kor Haven is working like a charm. It's conditional and Legendary so I'm not bumping it to two copies, but the singleton one has won me a fair amount of games and the colourlessness hasn't hurt me yet. I'm now recommending it for testing to everyone.

Joon
03-15-2008, 04:48 PM
I've never liked Windborn Muse in testing. It's as fragile as Exalted Angel, which is a bigger investment but one that wins you the game instead of sometimes stopping you from losing. Even against beatdown, what would you rather have - your opponent unable to attack due to infinite Propaganda effects while you swing for two, or him attacking with one creature per turn while you swing back for 4 + 4 life? If you resolve an Armageddon, even without a Crucible for fast recovery on your side, it's even better.

So all in all you'd advise me to play 4 Angel in Muse's place? In the next few weeks I don't have to do anything cause it's vacation time so I'll test it. Rings main would also be nice due their flexibility.



The one substantial advantage of Muse is that it removes your need for double-white mana, so you need 1-2 less white sources in the deck.

But as I play Angel in the side I need the mana sources again.



But with the threat of Angel added in, I've fared nicely with 3 Factories and 2 Wasteland (actually, I activate the Factories so rarely I'm thinking of going down to two).

But you have not always an (active) Angel and Mishra's can chumpblock with Crucible all the time.



Oh, and I forgot to post about the idea I mentioned a few weeks ago: Kor Haven is working like a charm. It's conditional and Legendary so I'm not bumping it to two copies, but the singleton one has won me a fair amount of games and the colourlessness hasn't hurt me yet. I'm now recommending it for testing to everyone.

In which place do you test it? Could you post your actual list, please (or at least its manabase)? Thanks.

Nihil Credo
03-15-2008, 04:59 PM
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
7 [UNH] Plains
2 [TE] Wasteland
1 [NE] Kor Haven

// Creatures
3 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle
4 [JGC] Exalted Angel

// Spells
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [P3] Ravages of War
2 [P2] Armageddon
3 [US] Smokestack

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [9E] Defense Grid
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
Six non-finalized slots. Common choices are: Powder Keg (EtW or Bridge tokens, mostly), Jotun Grunt or Tormod's Crypt for graveyard decks, Pithing Needle, Suppression Field, Disenchant.

deadlock
03-19-2008, 08:53 AM
Good looking list, but i have one question regarding Muse:
As i see it Muse would be more a Ghostly Prison than an Angel replacement.
Maybe cut the 4th Angel and Prison for 2 Muse or something like that.

Now i am not really expierenced with this archtype, i played Wu Angel Stax back, so i dont know how important it is that Prison -costs one less than Muse and that Muse is a creature and therefore easier to remove?

Arsenal
03-19-2008, 08:56 AM
Good looking list, but i have one question regarding Muse:
As i see it Muse would be more a Ghostly Prison than an Angel replacement.
Maybe cut the 4th Angel and Prison for 2 Muse or something like that.

Now i am not really expierenced with this archtype, i played Wu Angel Stax back, so i dont know how important it is that Prison -costs one less than Muse and that Muse is a creature and therefore easier to remove?

Ghostly Prison (2W) is able to be played on turn 1 reliably. As an enchantment, it is much harder to remove than a creature in the current metaGoyf. Ghostly Prison is a crucial lock piece in Stax, and I wouldn't remove it for anything currently in print (although, against some matchups [combo], these are the first things to come out).

Bane of the Living
03-19-2008, 06:43 PM
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
7 [UNH] Plains
2 [TE] Wasteland
1 [NE] Kor Haven

// Creatures
3 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle
4 [JGC] Exalted Angel

// Spells
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [P3] Ravages of War
2 [P2] Armageddon
3 [US] Smokestack

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [9E] Defense Grid
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
Six non-finalized slots. Common choices are: Powder Keg (EtW or Bridge tokens, mostly), Jotun Grunt or Tormod's Crypt for graveyard decks, Pithing Needle, Suppression Field, Disenchant.

Im surprised you only sb Oblivion Ring I think its the best card to come out for stax in a long time. Especially considering the change to decks that can simply pay :2: and attack you for 5-12. Im slowing removing Ghostly Prisons for them since Empty the Warrens has cooled down. I especially like that its a hard to counterbalance answer to Dreadnought/goyf. With Nought they usually cant re-stifle it even if you lose the Ring.

Maarten
03-19-2008, 07:49 PM
I have decided to make a Legacy deck, after a little research the Stax deck seems te be fun.
But I have a few questions about this deck, I hope you can help me answer them.

1. Isn't Smokestack very dangerous to play? It seems to me you destroy your own lock with it, or must you wait putting it into play until you've a Crucible of Worlds in play?

2. How many counters are (usually) necessary to put on the Smokestack? only 1 so you can sacrife a land and then return it with Crucible of Worlds or is it adviced to put more counters on it?

3. Why so few decks run Tangle Wire? isn't it good?

4. Many decks run Magus of the Tabernacle over Wrath of God, but isn't Wrath of God better?

5. How does this deck win? just with some little beatings from Mishra's Factory and Magus of the Tabernacle?

6. Why play Engineerd Explosives if the deck has only 1 color mana ?

7. I can't find many deck lists with Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale, isn't this card better then the Magus ?

8. Is the build of the topic starter (see bellow) a good build?

4x Armageddon
4x Magus of the Tabernacle
4x Smokestack
4x Ghostly Prison
4x Trinisphere
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Engineered Explosives
4x Mox Diamond
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
3x Crystal Vein
4x Mishra’s Factory
4x Flagstones of Trokair
6x Plains

Thanks in advance

Sanguine Voyeur
03-19-2008, 08:00 PM
3. Why so few decks run Tangle Wire? isn't it good?Tangle Wire is only good against decks that the deck is all ready good against. It also consumes useful, limited space.
4. Many decks run Magus of the Tabernacle over Wrath of God, but isn't Wrath of God better?Although Wrath is a better immediately, Magus supports the mana denial, blocks with a huge hide, and can win the game.
5. How does this deck win? just with some little beatings from Mishra's Factory and Magus of the Tabernacle?Yes, unless Exalted Angel is run.
7. I can't find many deck lists with Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale, isn't this card better then the Magus?Yes, but not many people own real Tabernacles. They're a rare commodity.
3x Crystal VeinCrystal Vein typically isn't run. It destabilizes the mana base and isn't as useful as it seems. You sacrifice mana to hinder everyone's mana. It's bad into Chalice, Trinisphere, and Smokestack, the three most important things to power out, sans Prison.


EDIT:Emidln has a lot to say in regards to Tangle Wire.
Tangle Wire

I cut this card, not because it is counter-productive, but because it is bad. It is bad because it's either win more or lose more. It's win more in your good matchups (like Threshold) and lose more in your bad matchups (like Goblins). When I was looking at what Sun Tower is trying to do, it is generating card advantage. This is done through permanents that X for 1 my opponent. These are cards like Ensnaring Bridge, Chalice of the Void, and Smokestack. Tangle Wire doesn't actually provide card advantage in this way.

The reason Tangle Wire is played in Type 1 Stax is Mana Drain. Workshop Aggro uses it as a tempo card, but Vintage Stax is primarily interested in not letting Drain decks go busted on turn 2-3 off a free 3-4 mana. Advatange is accomplished by playing some cheap/free artifacts, then shop -> Tangle Wire. Our format does not have Mana Drain and we play very few free/cheap artifacts.

While some people will tell you this card is good against Aggro, they are wrong, at least partly. Aggro falls into two categories: fat aggro and swarming aggro. Fat aggro is aggro that uses a few fat creatures (or, alternately, a few small creatures with Equipment or other Aura-type things). Swarming aggro is aggro that uses many cheap creatures that are usually undercosted in an effort to overwealm the defenses.

UbaStax is naturally good against fat aggro. We have Ensnaring Bridge, which is a card fat aggro never wants to see. It must be dealt with for them to win. However, UbaStax is very weak against swarming aggro. We are forced to play non-permanent cards like Rolling Earthquake, Pyroclasm, and Burning Wish in an attempt to deal with fast, swarming aggro since we lack a reliable way to get and use Barbarian Ring early, as in Vintage. Also, since our ways of emptying our hand are less refined than Vintage (Bazaar and Null Brooch), we typically have more trouble getting Ensnaring Bridge online vs swarming aggro than we do fat aggro.

Tangle Wire's problem is that it is only good against fat aggro. Fat Aggro, like Threshold, only plays a few permanents a time, and is significantly set back by Tangle Wire. However, swarm aggro decks like Goblins, Affinity, and Life.dec (which usually goes Aggro vs UbaStax), rely on their small creatures to get in past the defenses of Ensnaring Bridge, and their own card advantage engines to survive Pyroclasms and Rolling Earthquake. Whereas Threshold invests a lot of resources (typically, 3-7 cards per creature), Goblins invests 1 card for 1 creature. Added to the fact that Goblins can produce more of themselves to generate card advantage, and suddenly they have more permanents than we do. Tangle Wire ends up Time Walking 3 times, but it's not like the Classic Trinisphere, Juggernaut, Tangle Wire "Time Walks" of old. These are Time Walk targetting me, Time Walk commendeered by you, Time Walk commendeered by you. This is because Goblins will have more permanents, and thus recover faster from Tangle Wire than you.

I cut Tangle Wire for cards that are actually useful in problem matchups. These cards include Pithing Needle, which is absolutely busted against Goblins, as it stops their win condition post Uba-Bridge lock.

Silverdragon
03-19-2008, 08:47 PM
1. This deck is build around Smokestack hence the name "Stax". Aside from 4-5 Armageddon effects every single card in the deck is a permanent. Also no card has a cc higher than 4 (assuming you play Angel morphed) so if you can afford your 4 mana for Stack you are also very likely to be able to play every single card you draw off the top. So even if you don't have a Crucible yet you can keep your Smokestack at 1 counter almost infinitely. Flagstones also help keep more permanents in play until you find Crucible and they are a reason why drawing some Armageddons in the meantime isn't that bad.
Speaking of Armageddons, if you have Smokestack and Trinisphere in addition to your 4 lands it is sometimes correct to just play your Armageddon and sacrifice the Smokestack to itself. Then both you and your opponent will be screwed under Trinisphere but you play 24-26 lands which is more than most other Legacydecks do so you should be back into the game faster.

2. If you already have a Crucible, 2 counters are often the correct choice because you can sac the land you return with Crucible and the card you've drawn if it was not a land. Also if you have Flagstones ramping up to 2 counters is sometimes right too. Often however it depends on the situation (i.e. does your opponent have something you need to get rid of, how many permanents do each of you have total?). As I already said putting a counter on it and just keeping it there is possible but you also have the option of going up to way more counters. Mostly this is in situations where your opponent has an advantage on the board and you just want to clear the board to start fresh (remember you are very likely to draw more lands to get back into the game). You have to pay attention how many permanents both of you have, how many cards your opponent has left in his hand and how many lands were already played on both sides. You also need to anticipate when your opponent might throw more permanents (lands) on the board and when he's sandbagging them.
In summary: Read your opponent, gain experience and if you are not sure 1 counter is often the right choice.

3. Tangle Wire has some issues. It only affects the board temporarily and it often affects you as much as your opponent. It also does nothing but buy you some time and even if it does that without additional lockpieces you didn't advance your gameplan at all. Its many flaws are hard to pin down and explain. Maybe you should test it to get a feeling for how strong (or weak) it is yourself.
In summary I'd say it is just not strong enough to warrant a spot over the other stronger cards the deck already plays. Maybe if the minimum decksize was 70 or something it could be included.

4. Wrath of God cannot be sacrificed for Smokestack, it cannot attack and block and it costs double white. I think this sums it up. Oh and also Wrath is a one-time effect while Magus/Tabernacle stays until your opponent handles it.

5. These little beatings can add up fast. Consider that with a Magus and a Factory it only takes 5 turns to finish your opponent. In the past there have been controldecks slower than this. Also if you have established a hard lock your opponent should not need too much time with his turns so even if you only have a Factory to beat down these 10 turns should not take more than 5 minutes. (All the opponent has to do is sac, draw, play land or if he didn't play a land discard; all you have to do is sac, draw, replay land, attack)
Btw if you are really concerned about finishing your opponent in time (maybe because you are too inexperienced with the deck or the format as a whole) play some Exalted Angels too (btw a really good choice anyway).

6. You have Mox Diamonds so technically you can produce all 5 colors. Of course you'll only be able to set it to 0, 1 or 2 reliably but these are the cc that are most important for the deck. 0 destroys any tokens, morphs and some opposing acceleration like Chrome Mox (however remember it kills your Mox Diamonds and Chalices too). 1 destroys annoying critters like Nimble Mongoose, Kird Ape or Goblin Lackey and speaking of Goblins it also destroys the always annoying Aether Vial. At 2 there's Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Arcbound Ravager etc.
If I remember correctly it was first included to have additional ways to deal with Empty the Warrens and as a solution to Aether Vial.
Right now it might be better to play Oblivion Ring instead.

7. As I already said above Magus can attack and block which is really nice if your opponent has say a 3/3 Mongoose or a 5/6 Tarmogoyf or if you need to finish your opponent quickly. Not being a land also means that he stays around after Armageddon for at least one round if you don't play a land after the Geddon (you can also often support him with Mox Diamond or a Plains fetched by Flagstones). You might be able to play The Tabernacle after an Armageddon sometimes but having your Magus just sit there on defense until you topdeck the Geddon is very valuable against many decks.
edit: Sanguine Voyeur is right Tabernacle is very expensive so not everybody has access to them.

8. Imho it is a bit outdated however the core of the deck is very big so up to now most or even all modifications made to the deck were only minor. This exact version might even be better than most current builds in certain metagames.
The latest version of the original designer Christopher Coppola can be found here (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15168.html).
What's new?
Exalted Angels as anti-aggro tool and quick finisher against difficult matchups.
5 Armageddon effects to get a better ratio of drawing them.
Wastelands added for extra disruption a the potent "Waste-lock" with Crucible.

Nihil Credo
03-19-2008, 09:18 PM
Im surprised you only sb Oblivion Ring I think its the best card to come out for stax in a long time. Especially considering the change to decks that can simply pay :2: and attack you for 5-12. Im slowing removing Ghostly Prisons for them since Empty the Warrens has cooled down. I especially like that its a hard to counterbalance answer to Dreadnought/goyf. With Nought they usually cant re-stifle it even if you lose the Ring.

I don't like maindeck Oblivion Ring for the same reason I never liked maindeck sweepers: it is a simple stalling card, one that doesn't make your opponent's pressure any lighter. You kill a creature, they drop a new one, back to square one. Blech. This deck doesn't run card draw, so it hates those sort of trades.

Sometimes it's simply necessary: EtW at its peak required something more reliable than Prisons and Magi. You mentioned Dreadnought, which can only be answered with a pre-emptive Chalice@1 or Oblivion Ring; anything else is too slow. But really, Dreadnought is the only threat I can think of that demands these measures. Not only does Tarmogoyf (or Tombstalker, or Gathan Raiders, or Jotun Grunt...) leave you 4-5 turns to lock the attack step, but unlike Dreadnought or EtW it doesn't require any investment from your opponent, so killing it runs into the problem described above: what do I do about the next one?


I have decided to make a Legacy deck, after a little research the Stax deck seems te be fun.

Stax a fun deck? Now I've really heard everything... :cool:


1. Isn't Smokestack very dangerous to play? It seems to me you destroy your own lock with it, or must you wait putting it into play until you've a Crucible of Worlds in play?Obviously Smokestack + Crucible is the tits, but the reason Smokestack works is that you usually run 52 permanents (I'm not counting Mox Diamond), four of which are Flagstones of Trokair and four more (Cities of Traitors) which are going away sooner or later anyway. The vast majority of decks in the format play significantly less, meaning that if you're not on a fast clock it's going to single-handedly lock them out of the game... eventually (much emphasis on 'eventually').


2. How many counters are (usually) necessary to put on the Smokestack? only 1 so you can sacrife a land and then return it with Crucible of Worlds or is it adviced to put more counters on it?Generally, stay at one - at that setting you can maintain it indefinitely by simply playing out your hand. Going to two is something that only happens if you are on a clock and really need to reset your opponent out fast, since one of the following must be true:
- You have Crucible + Flagstones active (or Crucible + Gods' Eye, but I think Gods' Eye shouldn't be run since it's only good here and being colourless is highly relevant)
- You have Crucible active, 4+ mana to play your drawn cards, and a threat
- You will get rid of Smokestack within a couple of turns. Since you're a prison deck, this is a bad idea unless you either have a replacemente in hand or are confident to win before they can recover (usually with an Angel).


3. Why so few decks run Tangle Wire? isn't it good?Tangle Wire has the main advantage of versatility: against beatdown, it's a multiple Fog, and against control, it's a Defense Grid. The problem I have with the card is that it's a bad Fog and a really terrible Defense Grid.


4. Many decks run Magus of the Tabernacle over Wrath of God, but isn't Wrath of God better?No. With Wrath of God, they can just play more creatures and you're back where you started. With Magus of the Tabernacle, the same isn't true.

The big drawback of Magus over Wrath is that it can be removed - one of the many reasons I play Angel alongside Magus (many decks are removal-light). But even if that were too big of a problem, the second choice for mass creature control would be Moat or Humility, not Wrath.


5. How does this deck win? just with some little beatings from Mishra's Factory and Magus of the Tabernacle?I play Angels, never less than three of them. It's perfectly possible to win with just 6-8 win conditions, but in my experience can lead to a lot of drawn Game 3s.


6. Why play Engineerd Explosives if the deck has only 1 color mana ?Empty the Warrens, mostly; with Mox Diamond, Tarmogoyf and other stuff can also be handled (Powder Keg is another option, being more reliable but slower).

However, this is less of a concern these days; in fact, EtW has gotten so much hate that I see combo players now use it as a last resort when they really can't win with Tendrils of Agony.


7. I can't find many deck lists with Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale, isn't this card better then the Magus?No, Magus is by far the better card. Tabernacle is only any use when your opponent is attacking with multiple creatures. If he only has one, it's a bad Wasteland that doesn't even make mana. If he has none or uses manlands, all you can do is pitch it to Mox Diamond.

Magus, by contrast, provides a huge-ass blocker alongside with the Pendrell effect; this is splendid synergy since it forces your opponent to play a second creature - and cost himself another mana each turn - in order to deal you any damage at all. Moreover, Magus is a win condition. And finally, Magus isn't Legendary, so you can safely run 3-4.

If you happen to have 1-2 real Tabernacles lying around, stick them in the SB where they're pretty good.


8. Is the build of the topic starter (see bellow) a good build?EE is quite likely worse than Oblivion Ring these days (and I, personally, don't maindeck that one either), and Crystal Vein has given me nothing but disappointment every time I've tried it out. So no, I think it's no longer a good build if it ever was.

Obviously, I will suggest you try out my build. Assuming you don't have Ravages of War, play 4 Armageddons and either the fourth Magus, Smokestack, or an extra land (I'll likely be piloting Angel Stax in ten days, so I'll have to come up with a definitive choice by then).

You can also look around on DeckCheck.net and take a look at the latest winning lists.

Maarten
03-19-2008, 09:42 PM
Thanks for all the great feedback! It really helped me to understand the deck a little better :).

Bane of the Living
03-20-2008, 02:39 PM
I have decided to make a Legacy deck, after a little research the Stax deck seems te be fun.
But I have a few questions about this deck, I hope you can help me answer them.

1. Isn't Smokestack very dangerous to play? It seems to me you destroy your own lock with it, or must you wait putting it into play until you've a Crucible of Worlds in play?

2. How many counters are (usually) necessary to put on the Smokestack? only 1 so you can sacrife a land and then return it with Crucible of Worlds or is it adviced to put more counters on it?

3. Why so few decks run Tangle Wire? isn't it good?

4. Many decks run Magus of the Tabernacle over Wrath of God, but isn't Wrath of God better?

5. How does this deck win? just with some little beatings from Mishra's Factory and Magus of the Tabernacle?

6. Why play Engineerd Explosives if the deck has only 1 color mana ?

7. I can't find many deck lists with Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale, isn't this card better then the Magus ?

8. Is the build of the topic starter (see bellow) a good build?

4x Armageddon
4x Magus of the Tabernacle
4x Smokestack
4x Ghostly Prison
4x Trinisphere
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Engineered Explosives
4x Mox Diamond
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
3x Crystal Vein
4x Mishra’s Factory
4x Flagstones of Trokair
6x Plains

Thanks in advance

1. Smokestack only becomes dangerous if your opponent can also keep up with it. Good examples of this are enemy Crucibles, Life from the Loam, and Survival decks (all perms/witness/squee). Consider siding it out against those matchups. They're your bad matchups btw.. Landstill, Loam, Survival.

2. Usually its only necessary to have one counter on the smokestack unless its all you have to rely on. If you have a Flagstones in play, one in hand, ect its usually ok to bump it to two and wipe two perms. You can sacrifice the stones and the Stack itself and not have any net lose while your opponent suffered 2 cards. You can always sac your stack after bumping it and drop another a great tactic if you run four. If Crucible is out you can almost always bump to two counters since nearly everything in your deck is a perm or permx2 Flagstones.

3. Tanglewire isnt that great compared to oh.. Armageddon. The deck needs to focus on 4 of's for consistancy. There's just no room. Besides it doesnt do anything if you have Magus out and he's a five star card IMO.

4. No Wrath is :2::w::w: and Magus is :3::w: and believe it or not thats a huge difference when your playing against Rishadin Ports and firing multiple Armageddons. Your opponent can recover from Wrath with one Ringleader or just play out one Goyf at a time. Wrath isnt very effective for that. Magus cleans the opponents board when you play a Geddon and can usually block the shit out of goyfs. He kicks Doran in the nuts and he stifle's Emtpy the Warrens. He's better than Exalted Angel. He straight up replaced her.

5. Yes and concession. This is a Prison Control deck. It wins late game. Though things like turn one Trinisphere or Chalice for 1 + 2 can just win the game also.

6. Yes at one you blow up Nimble Mongoose and Vial and Dreadnought and you can play it through your own Chalice for 1 if you pump colorless mana into it. Amazing.

7. Yes but no one can afford them.

8. Ill look later Im out of time.

Machinus
03-20-2008, 04:58 PM
I have tabernacles and I don't play them. They would be in my design if they were good enough.

You guys realize I put Ravages in all my lists right? I don't care about price. Tabernacle doesn't make mana and so it's not good enough.

Bane of the Living
03-20-2008, 05:31 PM
I have tabernacles and I don't play them. They would be in my design if they were good enough.

You guys realize I put Ravages in all my lists right? I don't care about price. Tabernacle doesn't make mana and so it's not good enough.

I disagree, I think tabernacle is great. Its faster than magus when it matters like against EtW. No offense Chris but do you still play the deck much?

Machinus
03-20-2008, 05:47 PM
I've ran a couple in the sideboard for various reasons. Tabernacle is fragile (it even dies to itself) and you would have to cut lock pieces for it. I don't think you can cut prison, and I do think a 2/6 is better than something uncounterable.

In certain situations it could be good to side a couple of them into the deck. But I don't think you can run even narrower control cards than what the deck already plays.

Tacosnape
03-20-2008, 05:52 PM
I disagree, I think tabernacle is great. Its faster than magus when it matters like against EtW. No offense Chris but do you still play the deck much?

Do you play the deck much?

Magus of the Tabernacle is a kill condition. Magus of the Tabernacle is capable of coming out fast enough to stop a turn one Empty the Warrens, even on the draw and almost always on the play. Magus of the Tabernacle can -block-, and do it well.

Most importantly, though, Magus of the Tabernacle is a one-sided Wrath of God after an Armageddon and will set you up to pound for the win.

technogeek5000
03-20-2008, 07:22 PM
I used to test a UW version of this deck a while back and it was pretty crazy. Here is the list reconstructed from memory:

4 Armageddon
4 Magus
4 Ghostly prison
4 Propaganda
4 Chalice of the void
4 Mox diamond
4 Ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
1 Tabernacle (doubly good in my list since it focuses more on mana denial then board sweeping)
2 mishra's
4 Flagstones
4 tundra
2 plains
5 W fetches
4 Crucible
3 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

raharu
03-20-2008, 08:01 PM
I used to test a UW version of this deck a while back and it was pretty crazy. Here is the list reconstructed from memory:

4 Armageddon
4 Magus
4 Ghostly prison
4 Propaganda
4 Chalice of the void
4 Mox diamond
4 Ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
1 Tabernacle (doubly good in my list since it focuses more on mana denial then board sweeping)
2 mishra's
4 Flagstones
4 tundra
2 plains
5 W fetches
4 Crucible
3 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
Couldn't one cut the Propagandas for Muses and stay in white?

technogeek5000
03-20-2008, 09:40 PM
that they could, i didnt realy notice that card. So what i could do to that list now is...

-4 tundra
-5 fetch
-4 propaganda
-2 mishra's (dont need the extra fat)

+3 wasteland
+1 City of traitors
+7 plains
+4 muse

Bane of the Living
03-22-2008, 12:04 AM
Do you play the deck much?

Magus of the Tabernacle is a kill condition. Magus of the Tabernacle is capable of coming out fast enough to stop a turn one Empty the Warrens, even on the draw and almost always on the play. Magus of the Tabernacle can -block-, and do it well.

Most importantly, though, Magus of the Tabernacle is a one-sided Wrath of God after an Armageddon and will set you up to pound for the win.

Thats what I said. Why are you asking me that, did I offend you somehow? Im one of about 3 White Stax players in MA I know of thats why Im opinionated about this deck over ones such as TES, Landstill, Dragonstompy, ect. I feel like I have alot of tournament experience with this deck compared to people who play it with their friends or on MWS. I know I listen to those such as Nightmare or you when it comes to Landstill, I somewhat expect people to believe what I say about Stax or Ichorid specifically.

mossivo1986
03-22-2008, 02:56 AM
Ugh oh fight gonna break out on the stax thread. Better get the guys from Landstill to clean this up lmao! Just kidding. BTW Stax is like my hidden girlfriend in the closet. You wanna do it with her, but each time you go to you get this odd feeling that somewhere somehow you know its just not the right time or place to reveal the hidden fantasy to your wife.

That said, how is everyone? Im fine. I wanted to know a matchup analysis is for angel stax. Im considering building it.

Bane of the Living
03-22-2008, 10:57 AM
Ugh oh fight gonna break out on the stax thread. Better get the guys from Landstill to clean this up lmao! Just kidding. BTW Stax is like my hidden girlfriend in the closet. You wanna do it with her, but each time you go to you get this odd feeling that somewhere somehow you know its just not the right time or place to reveal the hidden fantasy to your wife.

That said, how is everyone? Im fine. I wanted to know a matchup analysis is for angel stax. Im considering building it.

Heres what I consider good matchups..
Goblins, Threshold, TES, Iggy, Belcher, Deadguy, Goyf Sligh, Ichorid

The decks you devestate are ones that rely on 1cc and 2cc strategies that are crippled by Chalice and Trinisphere. On the other end of the spectrum you have game against aggro with Ghostly Prisons, Tabernacle effects, and maybe Exalted Angel.

Even Matchups..
Dragon Stompy, Faerie Stompy, Rock, MUC

Your even matchups have a chance against you because they're mana curve can combat your taxing effects or Armageddons. They have threats that are normally out of range for Magus, Explosives, Ghostly Prison, and Chalice; such as Rakdos Pit Dragon or Sea Drake. They can match your prison sometimes depending who's on the play. Playing a Chalice for 0 can be devestating against Stompy since you knock out their morph cards and moxen.

Bad Matchups..
Landstill, Survival, Loam

Your bad matchups are decks that can put more than one perm on the board a turn easily and survive both the taxing effects and prison pieces. None of the above decks are devestated by Chalice or Trinisphere and have Crucible, Loam, or tutorable artifact/enchantment hate. Armageddon is great against each of them and the best tactic seems to couple it with Exalted Angel to take them down quickly.

Hope that helps a bit.

Nihil Credo
03-22-2008, 11:28 AM
I sort of agree with Bane's evaluations, with a couple of notable exceptions:

1) Deadguy

I am seriously puzzled that you consider this a good matchup - if you look earlier in the thread, there's a pretty long discussion about how best to solve this very problem, with some people going as far as sideboarding Duskrider Peregrine (Silverdragon) or Gift of Estates (myself).

Everything that Pikula does hurts you: discard is a bitch because you have relatively few business spells. Land destruction is a bitch because your curve is so high. Vindicate is a bitch with STD and a vagina dentata. In fact, most of my wins against Pikula involve just plain broken openings, such as turn 1 Chalice, turn 2 Mox-Crucible-Wastelock, turn 3 Angel.

And I'm not sure if you were including them here, but the latest trend in Deadguy is to splash green for Tarmogoyf and frickin' Pernicious Deed. I've played that matchup a few times and it's a solid nightmare; IMO, the only way you can realistically win is to side in Jotun Grunts and Suppression Fields and hope to manascrew them faster than they can manascrew you.

2) Survival

This has been far from terrible in my experience, either in RGB or BGW builds. While they do in theory have all the tools to deal with your attacks (mana dudes, discard, Survival into Genesis into Harmonic Sliver, etc.), in practice it's a challenge for them to put them to use. Chalice is pretty good against them at both 1 and 2 (Chalice@1 on the play is especially a beating, and so is Trinisphere). Mana denial is super-effective since they run so few lands and mostly nonbasics; Magus is a ridiculous wrecking ball, even more when paired with Prison or, god forbid, Armageddon. And while the singleton maindeck Harmonic Sliver may not make you happy, it's fairly hard for them to get to use it more than once.

In fact, about the only bad card you have against them is Smokestack, which (in my configuration) gets sided out nicely for Suppression Field.

There is a version running around (Tao's, I think it was) that maindecks Pernicious Deed. I can see that one giving you fits, but I would guess it represents only a minimal percentage of SotF lists.

EDIT: And having just played two frustrating games against it, I must add that Welder Trinket Survival is (surprise) quite good vs. Stax! Even that, though, was fairly crippled by a single Magus, and I was a different land (anything but Tomb) away from dropping a second one and sealing the game.

Bane of the Living
03-22-2008, 11:54 AM
I havent played against he green splash yet but your right, I dont know why I threw that one in there.

Survival usually tools me since Thoughtseize and Therapy are great against you on the play and arent a huge deal for them to lose if you do drop Chalice for 1. Witness can be a nightmare for you when they sideboard Krosan Grips and Magus of the Moon can really slow you down to a crawl.

I also side Suppression Field against them but it can still be rough even if they're paying 2 to vial out a goyf.

mossivo1986
03-24-2008, 07:58 AM
Ok, this weekend I tested nilith or nihil's model or what not. I noticed a couple of probobly obvious things about the deck that I want to bring up. This deck is so draw dependant its rediculous. I was also eating alot of my own damage in games which really sucks, and exalted angel was actually win more. Now maybe I tested the deck wrong and played it too controlish rather then tempo ish, but I just couldn't feel the deck.

Have you guys ever considered putting draw into the deck? Horizon canopy/ cycle lands something. I just was soo blown out by how likely I was to lose based on running 25 lands and no draw spells. It was really annoying. Although armageddon was devastating when it resolved. I actually geddoned away a u/w landstill players mana base a couple of pieces at a time and got him to all non basic non dual lands in his deck. That was pretty hot.

So inform me on what to do because im lost. I understand the basic combo's to set up sphere followed by an armageddon on say t3 on the draw t4 on the play. Then follow that up with some other cool tricks and just finish them off with a concession or a beating via mishra's or exalted.

Nihil Credo
03-24-2008, 09:55 AM
Ok, this weekend I tested nilith or nihil's model or what not. I noticed a couple of probobly obvious things about the deck that I want to bring up. This deck is so draw dependant its rediculous.

It's a Tomb/City/Mox deck. That comes with the package.


I was also eating alot of my own damage in games which really sucks, and exalted angel was actually win more.

This is pretty curious. Although not the main one, one of the reasons I like Exalted Angel is how it lets me be more aggressive with Tomb and double-land mana burn.


Have you guys ever considered putting draw into the deck? Horizon canopy/ cycle lands something.

I tried Horizon Canopy and was underwhelmed. With Crucible, it's OK but only once I had already made enough land drops. Without Crucible, eh.

I have not tested cycling lands - CIPT scared me off.

(Oh, and while we're talking about lands, I recently went -1 Mishra's Factory, +1 Plains in my list.)


So inform me on what to do because im lost. I understand the basic combo's to set up sphere followed by an armageddon on say t3 on the draw t4 on the play. Then follow that up with some other cool tricks and just finish them off with a concession or a beating via mishra's or exalted.

I haven't seen you play so this is just a guess, but you're making the deck sound much more combo-ish than it really is. You do not need to achieve a perfect one-two KO, or even to get a complete lock at all, especially if you have an Angel to apply pressure; what is important is to slow the opponent down to a crawl. Determine as soon as possible which spells in your hand will affect the game the most and focus on resolving those.

For example, two Prisons and a surviving Angel are far from a hard lock, but they can still win a lot of games. Ditto for, say, Crucible/Waste and a Magus. Or an aggressive Smokestack@2 against control.

The hardest part is to initially gain the upper hand - after that, your advantage feeds itself, because your earlier lock pieces impede your opponent's ability to answer the new ones. If you have a Flagstones in play and two more mana in hand, cast that Armageddon. Go for the turn two flipped Angel, especially postboard.

mossivo1986
03-24-2008, 12:33 PM
Sure, I understand where your comming from and maybe it was just the lands that brought me down. I never saw truly good starting hands other then maybe once, but past that I was either mana flooded or mana short. There was no "medium." I also wish I had played more wastelands more often then not. But who knows. EE absolutely wrecked challices. Made me sad. Usually im the one doing those nasty little tricks.

heh,

klaus
03-24-2008, 02:43 PM
Sure, I understand where your comming from and maybe it was just the lands that brought me down. I never saw truly good starting hands other then maybe once, but past that I was either mana flooded or mana short.

I actually tested 3 MD Serum Powder (hence SP) for more consistency.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGDST/serum_powder.jpg

As you've already figured: STAX is heavily starting hand dependant, so for me SP seemed an obvious candidate to make it MD.

Let's analyze SP as a MD choice for Armageddon Stax real quick:
PROS:
- More STAX consistency ftw!
- it's colorless
- hardly ever a completely dead draw: Mid-/lategame look at it as a bad Mindstone - it still does it's part, it sacs to Smokestack :laugh: , produces mana - you get my point.
- Early game it's not even that bad: I like the fact that you can ramp up to four mana in the face of City of Traitors w/o having to sac it for a new land drop (which can be quite helpful at times) and so on..
- Games 2/3 helps you see your SB hate more frequently & even more importantly earlier than usual.
- Stax can bare to rfg entire starting hands, because it's unlikely to be cut off your crucial cards (all 3/4ofs) that way

CONS:
- You usually don't want to see it mid-/late game
- slightly lowers your must-counter count [yet, potentially provides you defense grids 5-7]

What to cut for SP:
when playing with powders, I ran a max of 24 lands (so pretty much cut 1-2 lands). Cutting 2 lands feels a lot at first glance. You've got to take into consideration though that with the SP-tech you'll get mana-screwed less frequently, plus you have 3 more (potential) mana sources.
Like Silverdragon, I lowered my Smokestack count to 2-3.
And I tested a 3/3 Magus-Angel split.

To be honest, I couldn't come up with a final conclusion about whether it's worth the virtual sacrifice. So I'd be happy to see more STAX.dec players test it and report their findings.

*Keep up the "prison work" :cool:
Klaus

mossivo1986
03-24-2008, 02:53 PM
Interesting. Syrom powder sounds good in theory.

What is the version of stax that runs the portal earthquake that doesnt hit characters with horsemanship. This version outdated? I have no idea, im just asking. Why does amrageddon stax not run tangle wire? Why did you cutt down from 4 stax to 3?

I know these are alot of questions but my brain is bleeding from curiousity.

Sanguine Voyeur
03-24-2008, 03:00 PM
What is the version of stax that runs the portal earthquake that doesnt hit characters with horsemanship.Sun Tower (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=107642#post107642)?

Why does amrageddon stax not run tangle wire? Why did you cutt down from 4 stax to 3?
3. Tangle Wire has some issues. It only affects the board temporarily and it often affects you as much as your opponent. It also does nothing but buy you some time and even if it does that without additional lockpieces you didn't advance your gameplan at all. Its many flaws are hard to pin down and explain. Maybe you should test it to get a feeling for how strong (or weak) it is yourself.
In summary I'd say it is just not strong enough to warrant a spot over the other stronger cards the deck already plays. Maybe if the minimum decksize was 70 or something it could be included.
3. Tanglewire isnt that great compared to oh.. Armageddon. The deck needs to focus on 4 of's for consistancy. There's just no room. Besides it doesnt do anything if you have Magus out and he's a five star card IMO.
Tangle Wire has the main advantage of versatility: against beatdown, it's a multiple Fog, and against control, it's a Defense Grid. The problem I have with the card is that it's a bad Fog and a really terrible Defense Grid.
Tangle Wire

I cut this card, not because it is counter-productive, but because it is bad. It is bad because it's either win more or lose more. It's win more in your good matchups (like Threshold) and lose more in your bad matchups (like Goblins). When I was looking at what Sun Tower is trying to do, it is generating card advantage. This is done through permanents that X for 1 my opponent. These are cards like Ensnaring Bridge, Chalice of the Void, and Smokestack. Tangle Wire doesn't actually provide card advantage in this way.

The reason Tangle Wire is played in Type 1 Stax is Mana Drain. Workshop Aggro uses it as a tempo card, but Vintage Stax is primarily interested in not letting Drain decks go busted on turn 2-3 off a free 3-4 mana. Advatange is accomplished by playing some cheap/free artifacts, then shop -> Tangle Wire. Our format does not have Mana Drain and we play very few free/cheap artifacts.

While some people will tell you this card is good against Aggro, they are wrong, at least partly. Aggro falls into two categories: fat aggro and swarming aggro. Fat aggro is aggro that uses a few fat creatures (or, alternately, a few small creatures with Equipment or other Aura-type things). Swarming aggro is aggro that uses many cheap creatures that are usually undercosted in an effort to overwealm the defenses.

Machinus
03-24-2008, 04:52 PM
I actually tested 3 MD Serum Powder (hence SP) for more consistency.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGDST/serum_powder.jpg

As you've already figured: STAX is heavily starting hand dependant, so for me SP seemed an obvious candidate to make it MD.

Let's analyze SP as a MD choice for Armageddon Stax real quick:
PROS:
- More STAX consistency ftw!
- it's colorless
- hardly ever a completely dead draw: Mid-/lategame look at it as a bad Mindstone - it still does it's part, it sacs to Smokestack :laugh: , produces mana - you get my point.
- Early game it's not even that bad: I like the fact that you can ramp up to four mana in the face of City of Traitors w/o having to sac it for a new land drop (which can be quite helpful at times) and so on..
- Games 2/3 helps you see your SB hate more frequently & even more importantly earlier than usual.
- Stax can bare to rfg entire starting hands, because it's unlikely to be cut off your crucial cards (all 3/4ofs) that way

CONS:
- You usually don't want to see it mid-/late game
- slightly lowers your must-counter count [yet, potentially provides you defense grids 5-7]

What to cut for SP:
when playing with powders, I ran a max of 24 lands (so pretty much cut 1-2 lands). Cutting 2 lands feels a lot at first glance. You've got to take into consideration though that with the SP-tech you'll get mana-screwed less frequently, plus you have 3 more (potential) mana sources.
Like Silverdragon, I lowered my Smokestack count to 2-3.
And I tested a 3/3 Magus-Angel split.

To be honest, I couldn't come up with a final conclusion about whether it's worth the virtual sacrifice. So I'd be happy to see more STAX.dec players test it and report their findings.

*Keep up the "prison work" :cool:
Klaus

Thanks for the suggestion. This sounds like it could be worth testing.

Fred Bear
03-25-2008, 03:04 PM
Serum Powder is a great theory, but a very sub-par idea when you really break into the numbers...

Here's the basic underlying math (I'm going to go over this in brief since I'm at work - I'm willing to do more later if someone wants/asks) for a 60 card deck -

Play 4 - ~40% chance of having in opening seven
Play 3 - ~32%
Play 2 - ~22%
Play 1 - ~12%

Serum Powder has the power (in theory) to improve your opening hand on the condition that Serum Powder is in your opening hand. That's combinatorial probability so you multiply the probability of having it times the probability of having an unkeepable hand (assuming you play 4x Serum Powder)...

100% of possible 7-card hands suck -> 40% chance of improvement
75% of 7-card hands stinky -> 30% chance
50% of 7-card hands blow -> 20% chance
25% of 7-card hands terrible -> 10% chance
10% of 7-card hands bad -> 4% improvement

Think about what those numbers mean - (1) you wouldn't play a deck with 100% chance of crap hands (2) I, like most, wouldn't play a deck that blows 75% of the time (3) might describe an all-in combo like Belcher or Ichorid (4) would be a shaky combo but isn't really unreasonable considering all things and (5) is probably realistic if we ignore mana-type issues. So really, you are looking at possibly improving your opening hand <10% of the time, if you play 4x Serum Powder.

I've played this deck for a while now and in all my testing I can honestly say that the most difficult aspect of playing 'Geddon Stax is knowing what hands to keep and mulligan. But, if I'm entirely honest, a lot of that decision has to do with whether or not I know what my opponent is playing. A solid opening 7 against goblins does not translate into a great 7 versus TES. There are, of course, going to be cards that bridge the gap, but not all of them. If you evalute hands that you would keep or toss not based on what your opponent is playing, the numbers really aren't that far off of any other deck in the format. If you take that knowledge about your opponent and 'back-apply' (hindsight being 20/20 and all), you will see an increase in 'bad' opening hands, but Serum Powder isn't the answer - better opponent scouting is.

Furthermore, none of this analysis actually takes into account that by playing 4x Serum Powder, you are diluting the deck and worsening its initial draws. (This, I feel, is often a subtle point when evaluating things and deserves a highlight.)

Here's another long-winded thought experiment. You want to improve bad draws (say they occur 35% of the time), so you find room for 4x Serum Powder in 'Geddon Stax. This has the potential to improve those draws 14% of the time (35%*40%). But Serum Powder does nothing to improve Stax on its own (we currently don't play any 3cc colorless mana generators), so it will show up in a hand we wanted to keep 26% (65%*40%) of the time. Now, just to complicate the matter, let's say that 50% of those hands would've been keepable with any other card Stax plays besides Serum Powder. This means we just killed 13% of our otherwise keepable hands. This means that Serum Powder (as a 4-of) helped us 1% (14% improvement - 13% hand dilution) of the time. I don't think a hypothetical (I say hypothetical because I am making the huge assumption that all of the decks match-ups stay equal with where they currently are with this not-so-insignificant change to the decklist) 1% improvement is worth 4 slots (the numbers go lower for playing less than 4).

There are slots that people can play with and personalize the deck to their own playstyle, etc. etc., but Serum Powder doesn't make the cut for me.

Fred Bear...

Syco_Tr0pic
03-25-2008, 04:30 PM
Fred Bear, you are ignoring mullingans in your math.
Remember that mulligans + Serum Powder is TEH huge tilt on probabilities, not Serum Powder by itself in the opening seven (see Vintage Ichorid, that can grant a mulligan to one of the four Bazaars in the deck 90something% of the time).
I'm playing this deck for enough time to know that it looses more to its own bad starts (when they happen) than to Deadguy (happily for us a seldom played deck). Enough time to know how great it would be to have something to tilt the probabilities a bit more to our side. I'm fully willing to put some time on testing Serum Powder for the consistency it can bring to the deck.
Not to say that SP isn't a risky card, it is, it might even be lousiest card ever to touch Geddon Stax. But math (and flawed math for that matter) allied to preconceptions, besides not being the same as actually testing the friggin card, is a sure route to imobility.

Gambit
03-25-2008, 04:42 PM
I'm willing to put in some work with goldfishing opening hands to see how SP feels; obviously it's value increases games 2-3 as you know what you are looking for. My list:
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond

2 Oblivion Ring
4 Ghostly Prison

4 Armageddon

1 Exalted Angel
4 Magus of the Tabernacle

4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
7 Plains

What should I cut for the SP's?

Thinking:
-1 Crucible
-1 Trini
-1 ???

+3 Serum Powder

klaus
03-25-2008, 07:00 PM
@gambit:

Here is the list I'm currently testing:

Land (23):
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
7 Plains
--
4 Mox Diamond

4 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Exalted Angel

2 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
2 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
3 Serum Powder

2 Oblivion Ring
3 Ghostly Prison

SB:
3 Defense Grid
3 Suppression Field
2 Sphere of Law
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ghostly Prison
4 Meta Slots

Fred Bear
03-26-2008, 10:28 AM
Fred Bear, you are ignoring mullingans in your math.
Remember that mulligans + Serum Powder is TEH huge tilt on probabilities, not Serum Powder by itself in the opening seven (see Vintage Ichorid, that can grant a mulligan to one of the four Bazaars in the deck 90something% of the time).
I'm playing this deck for enough time to know that it looses more to its own bad starts (when they happen) than to Deadguy (happily for us a seldom played deck). Enough time to know how great it would be to have something to tilt the probabilities a bit more to our side. I'm fully willing to put some time on testing Serum Powder for the consistency it can bring to the deck.
Not to say that SP isn't a risky card, it is, it might even be lousiest card ever to touch Geddon Stax. But math (and flawed math for that matter) allied to preconceptions, besides not being the same as actually testing the friggin card, is a sure route to imobility.

Posts like this really get to me since it does nothing for the discussion. If you think my math is flawed, by all means enlighten me with a correction. And I never once said that people couldn't test Serum Powder in 'Geddon Stax. All I said was that it doesn't make the cut for me and I tried to show why (If you read the whole thread and the ones that preceded this, you'll see that I've been playing this deck and contributing to the thread for a good while as well - and I've tested my share of winners and losers in this deck). Maybe I can do a better job of explaining why I don't like Serum Powder for this deck...

I eliminated the discussion of mulligans from my last post when I said it was a 'basic' overview of the math, so you're right on that account. Taking mulligans into consideration becomes a much, much more difficult problem to solve since the probabilities change with every 'variation' (i.e. the calculated probabilities depend on which cards get removed).

But to demonstrate where the math would tend, here's another 'thought' experiment...

What does an 'unplayable' hand with Stax look like...

*Aside - I don't want to derail the current discussion with exactly what is and isn't playable, so I'm going to make some generalizations. If you have another hand you would like to look at specifically - bring it up for discussion. I find it extremely difficult in these mathematical discussions when you begin looking at specific cards because you can calculate the specific probabilities of such a hand and the probabilities for a specific 7 card hand are LOW. I am going to try and keep the discussion to trends, etc. for this reason - a 0.25% change in something that occurs 1.3% of the time is probably not worth noting since it will only show up in the most rigorous testing and not at all in most tournament settings. END*

Here's an example of a slow opener - Land Land Land Mox Crucible Land Crucible. There may be situations where this is playable, but it would require more information, so we'll just assume for the sake of discussion that it's not one of those times.

Now, let's replace a Land with Serum Powder so we have something like Plains, Factory, Plains, Mox Diamond, Crucible, Crucible, Serum Powder. That's a pretty slow opener - turn 2 Crucible with nothing to get back but a Plains/Factory is very weak in a format where you could be facing turn 2 'Goyf or Combo-I-Win. So, I remove this hand and draw a new seven. *Note - I could just take a mulligan and keep the Crucibles, Diamond, and Lands in my deck, but then why discuss SP to begin with.*

Now, I've changed all my probablilities... I'm down to 1-2 Crucibles depending on build, so (in general) my chances of a Smokestack lock or Wastelock are lessened (probability to achieve a locked board - DOWN). I'm down to 3 Diamonds (35% chance of having 1 in the new hand down from 40%) so my ability to get off to an explosive start is hampered (probability for turn 1 Trinisphere/Prison/Morph - DOWN). And I'm down 3 lands (which unless you play 26 is going to hurt your land numbers) which isn't going to help me any playing a mana-hungry deck (probability for mana problems - UP).

You can see the trends... all of the probabilities of achieving the deck's goals are lessened and the chances of running into 'other' problems has gone up. Now, again, that's for a specific situation relying on specific cards, but change the cards and look at the example again - removing 7 cards from a 60 card deck hurts the probability a 4-of goes from 4/60~6.5% while 3/53~5.5%, remove 2 and you are at 2/53~3.5%.

*Aside - After thinking about this more, I don't think this is a small point. Anything you remove, you hurt your chances for finding another. Anything you didn't remove, you increase those odds. In Stax, because of the number of mini-combos and multi-card synergies, this is NOT a small effect. END*

You'll find that unless you are talking about situations that start with 0-2 lands or 5+ lands (i.e. hands you would mulligan anyways), you are almost always 'hurting' yourself with a deck like Stax where you actually are trying to draw the cards in your deck.

This is not the case with an all-in combo like Dredge in Vintage (or Belcher in Legacy/Vintage) where you are aggressively looking for your 'engine'/combo to be in your opening hand instead of in your library. Those decklists rely on individual redundancies (i.e. one dredge is about as valuable as the next) and unique synergy (i.e. you plan to 'see' nearly all your cards) to be able to remove 7 with little-to-no consequence. On the other hand, there are hands with Ichorid that you would probably choose to take a conventional mulligan instead of using Powder's ability. An example might be a hand of Bridge, Zealot, Ichorid, Serum Powder, Bridge, Therapy, Leyline. You definitely need to mulligan, but your not going to remove your win for the chance (i.e. you want your deck to still achieve its goal).

The bottom line is... Serum Powder, in Stax, dilutes the deck and does not help the deck achieve its goals. It sounds like a good theory (being able to draw seven new cards), but the math (and the internal synergy of the deck) does not support it. Improving familiarity with the deck, its match-ups, and the meta you are playing it in will all lead to more wins than Serum Powder.

Otherwise, maybe, if you want to try and play Stax like an all-in combo (where you basically win or lose based on the starting 7), Serum Powder would work. And, honestly, if you wish to test Serum Powder further for yourself, then by all means - go for it. The alternative isn't 'immobility' or stagnation but rather to look for and test things that advance and improve the deck and it's poor match-ups.

Fred Bear...

Arsenal
03-26-2008, 10:35 AM
Like all control decks, Stax struggles in the early game. However, by using cards that can potentially dilute mid-late game effectiveness, you're sacrificing the very consistency and redundancy that Stax NEEDS on turn 4-8. Personally, I do not see the need for tutors/draw/manipulation in order to MAYBE help my turn 1-3 plays, especially at the expense of my turn 4-8 plays (the turns I should be locking up the board).

Consistency, redundancy, and virtual card advantage are the strengths of Stax.

klaus
03-26-2008, 07:13 PM
One factor that makes White Stax a Tier 1-2 deck:

On the bottom of Stax's multi-synergistic framework there is one factor that gives the deck the power to be tough enough to keep up with the top decks: In a nutshell that's turn 1 Chalice@ or Trinisphere (followed by mana denial)

I'm pretty sure nobody expects me to do the math involed to state that chances for such turn 1s get much better with serum powder.

I also can't stress enough how much you benefit from SP Gs2/3: You find your SB_hate more than twice as frequently in your starting hand (when accounting for SB 3-ofs and multiple mulls if need be). For SP serves as copies 3-5/4-6/5-7 for each of your Sb cards.

Plus you virtually save SB slots for more versatility. Meaning you can cut your 4ofs (i.e. Suppression Field, Defense Grid) down to 3 copies. This is especially golden for big tournaments - you can simply battle a larger amount of archetypes postboard.

Thoughts?

Tacosnape
03-26-2008, 07:44 PM
Powder seems really bizarre on paper, but I think it's worth pointing out how very relevant the mana production from it could be.

klaus
03-27-2008, 03:32 AM
Powder seems really bizarre on paper, but I think it's worth pointing out how very relevant the mana production from it could be.

As I pointed out earlier, it is pretty smooth at times to be able to play Mox, City -> something, and then SP (instead of another land that kills City).
It also let's you recover from your Geddons much quicker, obviously.

@fred bear:

Otherwise, maybe, if you want to try and play Stax like an all-in combo (where you basically win or lose based on the starting 7), Serum Powder would work.
Yeah, I think I regard Stax as more of an "all-in combo based on your starting 7" compared to 90% of the field. For me this is especially true because we have no cantrips that help us improve our hand by finding the most effective cards throughout the game. Hell I'd play Sensei's Top over SP any day if it cost 2 even in the face of so few shuffle effects^^.
--
Finding specific SP starting hand situations that enlighten us whether it's top or flop doesn't seem logical to me - the variety of hands plus the variety of SP-mulled hands that you may get is simply to complex. So no offence, but please try to come up with 'hard facts' if you really want to contribute to the discussion.
---
On another note, don't forget that when adding 3 SP it is quite viable to go down to 23 lands (cutting 1-2), due to more mana producers overall and potential fewer mana screws due to "mull deluxe". SP uses merely 1-2 slots.
--

mossivo1986
03-27-2008, 11:38 AM
I disagree Tacosnape. Serum powder sounds right. This is sort of a "combo" deck, that focuss on pieces to interact and deny your opponent the ability to truly "play" his or her gameplan. Fixing your opening 7 in a deck that has 0 card draw and it's card advantage is really more board advantage and control than anything else. Serum might be clunky in the middle of a game or what not, but seriously in theory it sounds fine. Post sb it makes sense that you see more of your sb cards, ect. The only problem is I see it being sided out because its really not that usefull in the game, but who knows.


Does anyone play manaless ichorid in vintage? If so, whats it like running 3 serum powders vs 4 as im pretty sure youve tested it.

I see how horizon canopy is working for people.

I know this sounds retarded, absolutely stupid, but do you think the 6 drop enchantment that makes your opponent draw 7 whenever they cast a spell worth it in A stax build? Maybe a mono blue non farie stompy build? Im just asking because I dont know.

Fred Bear
03-27-2008, 11:43 AM
Klaus,

I'm sorry that I disagree with your idea, but that's why I'm trying to discuss it with examples and probability theory. I provided specific examples (and acknowledged the shortcomings of the assumptions) to illustrate general points about the failure of Serum Powder to do what is claimed. It's an opinion, though, and you are free to disagree with me and provide evidence to the contrary. But I will continue to offer counter-points where I feel necessary, so as to save time for people testing the deck to actually improve it.

Case in point...

I would agree that turn 1 Chalice set at 1 and turn 1 Trinisphere are both very effective plays. I would argue that turn 1 Chalice at 1 is probably the best play this deck can make (with the generally accepted list). But let's really evaluate these two plays in depth...

Turn 1 Chalice at 1 can be played by either a 2-mana land + Chalice (22-24%) or by any two land + Mox Diamond + Chalice (11%) which means that we should be getting Chalice at 1 on turn 1 about 33% of the time. Turn 1 Trinisphere is more difficult since it requires Trinisphere + Mox Diamond + 2-mana Land + another land. This event will occur roughly 7-8% of the time.

To me, this illustrates what makes this a solid deck choice and at least keeps most of the match-ups at least in the even category - ~40% of the time, you will have either Chalice @1 or Trinisphere on turn 1.

But these openings are what you are looking to improve with Serum Powder (if I understand your point correctly). You want a better than 40% chance of either Chalice @1 or Trinisphere on turn 1.

Serum Powder will do that - provided that (A) Serum Powder is in your hand; (B) Neither Chalice or Trinisphere or Mox Diamond is in your opening hand; (C) You are playing 8 2-mana lands; and (D) there are no more than 2 lands in your opening hand. How did I arrive at that?

(A) Without Serum Powder, it's a moot point. In your 3-of suggested build, this will occur 32% of the time. This is a basic premise of the idea.

(B) If Chalice, Trinisphere, or Mox Diamond is in a hand you RFG with Powder, the odds of drawing another copy is actually reduced - not improved - in the new hand. Odds of drawing a 4-of from a 60-card deck in the opening 7 - 40%. Odds of drawing a 3-of from a 53-card deck in the opening 7 - 35%. This is where the probability tree does get confusing since the actual percentages will depend on exactly what you do remove, but, IN GENERAL, if you remove one of these three cards, your chances for a broken opener go down - not up.

(C) If you play 8 2-mana lands and remove 1, you probably won't notice anything (~65%). If you play 7 2-mana lands and remove 1, your odds are decreased by ~1%. In my testing, I have been most comfortable with 7 2-mana lands (eliminating 1 City of Traitors). Neither of these plays is 'broken' enough to warrant the number of times you will get a double City with no Crucible in my opinion. Overall this is a minor point, though.

(D) In your suggested build, you recommend 23 lands in a 60-card deck (38.3%). To maintain that percentage, you need 20.3 lands in a 53-card deck. This is again a small percentage, but if you remove 3 lands with Powder the trend is down - not up - which is not what we want.

So now, let's evaluate how often this happens... We need a hand of Powder + 6 cards (no Diamond, no 3-Sphere, no Chalice)... ~6% of the time. Awesome! That's about 1 time in 6 3-game matches or once a tournament. But there's no guarantee that we will get that broken opener after this, we are just 'improving' the odds. Let's assume we removed 4 random cards, 2 1-mana lands, and Powder... The numbers DO improve to ~52%. Thats pretty awesome actually. But wait... It's a combination so we take 52% * the 6% occurance and we improve our chances by ~3% (this means that you will realize the improvement about every other tournament you play).

Normally, I would applaud an improvement of 3%, though - that's awesome. But, as Arsenal pointed out, you could be sacrificing your mid-game. And to evaluate that - you HAVE to look at what those 4 random cards were which make it an extremely difficult exercise and would require testing - but since you are only going to see it 6 times in 100 tests - count me out - your testing results will be completely random. Honestly, if every deck in Legacy scooped to turn 1 Trinisphere or turn 1 Chalice at 1, I'd say this was very worthwhile, but they don't (again, if they did - I would understand playing prison as an all-in combo which I disagree with anyhow) and I can't count the number of times I have lost to Landstill/Survival/Deadguy/etc. with a turn 1 Trinisphere, but no juice afterwards or suffered at the hand of an unchecked 'Goyf after a Turn 1 Chalice for 1. A 3% chance at drawing a combo that doesn't win the game and playing a card that potentially hurts my mid-to-long game where the deck has game just seems like a counterintuitive idea.

So 'no offense', but these are hard facts. But that's just my thoughts on the subject based on the underlying probabilities and my experience playing the deck. I would rather run cards that further the decks goals and improve the deck against the field (not itself).

I would also never side in Serum Powder, so I can't really see the point in keeping it in post board. Wouldn't you rather run actually useful cards vs your opponent?

Fred Bear...

Arsenal
03-27-2008, 12:41 PM
Control decks, since the beginning of Magic, have had tough times in the early game. That's a sacrifice you make as a control player; shaky early game in order to have a dominating, controlling mid-late game. If you guys can't deal with an early game that is suspect sometimes, then I suggest you find a different archetype to play. I wouldn't do something as drastic as marginally increase my early game effectiveness at the expense of my mid-late game; the time when Stax should be rolling. But to each his own I guess...

Skeggi
03-27-2008, 05:24 PM
Hello, I've been lurking your discussion about Serum Powder, and I'm unable to wrap my mind around it.

The question for me lies whether I want the Serum Powder itself in my opening hand; and I'm afraid that sometimes I'd have to throw away 7 cards I don't really want to throw away.

Improving opening hand, or creating any form of stability is a virtue though; but what could we use instead of Serum Powder? Wouldn't Scroll Rack be an option to play, perhaps?

Machinus
03-27-2008, 05:51 PM
I've actually played Scroll Rack before. It is amazing in the late game as this deck never drops lands, and you can rack large hands. It is very very good with flagstones and plains, since you have no way of shuffling them back into your deck, and flagstones can get rid of crap. The problem with Scroll Rack is that it doesn't generally do enough until the deck has already established some kind of position on the board. You don't really want to play it early, and the deck doesn't have enough cards in the early game to really take advantage of it.

It's a very good idea, and it's on a short list of development options, but I haven't found that it makes the deck more disruptive. If your hand is bad enough that you want to start racking early, you probably should just get a new hand.

Dino
03-27-2008, 09:36 PM
Here is my list that i currently play:

1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Flagstones of Trokair
8x Plains

4x Mox Diamond
4x Smokestack
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Trinisphere

1x Moat
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Exalted Angel
3x Magus of the Tabernacle
4x Armageddon
4x Ghostly Prison

Sideboard

3x Aura of Silence
4x Supression Field
4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Defense Grid

I know some people are running Mishra's Factories and more Angels/Magus, but Moat and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale have been testing very good against a lot of different decks. Any suggestions on main deck and sideboard choices?

Skeggi
03-28-2008, 06:36 AM
Why do you opt for 4x smokestack? If you draw 1, the rest are dead cards?

Arsenal
03-28-2008, 08:47 AM
Why do you opt for 4x smokestack? If you draw 1, the rest are dead cards?

So you drew a Smokestack. Congratulations. Now resolve it. You resolved it? Awesome. Now protect it from Krosan Grip/Seal of Primordium/Shattering Spree/etc. Get the point?

Not only does 4x Smokestack increase your chances of seeing one when you need it, but it allows you to be more aggressive with soot counters (2-3 soot counters for a couple turns). There is no downside of playing 4x Smokestack; it's the basis of the deck. Much like Landstill plays 4x Standstill.

Machinus
03-28-2008, 10:11 AM
Smokestack #2 is still really good. Two stacks out means you can go from 1 to 3 soot counters in one turn, or 2 to 4. The first stack is good but it might not clean up all the way.

Skeggi
03-28-2008, 12:08 PM
Get the point?

Yup, point taken. The reason I asked is; since I'm a new stax-player myself, I always saw stax decks as having a semi-lock before smokestack; and smokestack being the final killer and closing the lock. Now I see that the semi-lock is still too vulnerable, and more stax is a good thing to have :cool:

Gambit
03-28-2008, 01:01 PM
So I goldfished a bunch of hands with Serum Powder; and basically I always wished it was another lock piece etc. Yes a few times it got me a free mulligan; but it made me throw away 2 crucibles, an Angel, 2 chalices etc. Basically making my deck 7 less gassy cards and very land heavy, as most mulligans were due to too few land. They are really not a good draw either, I don't want to spend 3 mana to play one unless I already have board control, and as a topdeck when you need a lock piece they ruin lives. I only ran three, by just turning a few cards backwards in their sleeves, whenever I had one I would look what the card would usually be and say "shit, I would way rather have that." So, in theory SP seems like it could be good, and again this was just goldfishing, but I won't be playing them anytime soon.


Another Point; I believe this deck should be running 5 armegeddons. It's a card that is good in multiples and I'm always happy to draw. Plus usually a resolved one results in victory.

EDIT: Has anyone tried to get a Ravages of War lately? There isn't a single place on-line with any in stock, not even da 'Bay. Let me know if you have a source.

Nihil Credo
04-02-2008, 04:22 PM
Thanks to Idraleo who lent me the deck (minus the Ravages of War and Tabernacle), I brought White Stax to a Dragons League tourney this Sunday. I did not make Top 8, although it was quite close. I thought I would put a report here to revive this thread.

First of all, the list:

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
8 [UNH] Plains
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [NE] Kor Haven

// Creatures
3 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle
4 [JGC] Exalted Angel

// Spells
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [US] Smokestack
4 [P2] Armageddon

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 [9E] Defense Grid
SB: 3 [CS] Jötun Grunt
SB: 2 [10E] Windborn Muse
SB: 3 [RAV] Suppression Field

I was confident in the maindeck, much less in the sideboard, particularly the Jotun Grunts. I saw a few Ichorids decks around and no Loam archetypes, so I considered switching the balance in favour of Windborn Muse, but decided not to change my SB on the basis of just a couple of scouted decks.


Round 1: Giuseppe Stancanelli playing White Stax

1: Yep - the two White Stax players in the tournament get paired together.

As he shuffles his cards, he slips and reveals a City of Traitors. How interesting: so it's either White Stax, or Dragon/Faerie Stompy; probably the former, since Stompy decks are vastly underplayed in Italy. Conveniently enough, my opener has Crucible, an Angel, and enough lands to play both, while his appears to contain a few more useless lock pieces (he starts on the play with a Chalice@1). I get a fairly quick win from that.

I side out Chalices, Trinispheres, and a Prison for the playset of Rings and all SB creatures (3 Grunt, 2 Muse)

2: This game shows what the Stax mirror usually is: 90% of the game revolves around Crucible superiority. It's a back and forth between the both of us, with Oblivion Rings flying around to change the balance each time (somewhat amusingly, my opponent's surname can be read as 'Ring-tirer'). Flagstones of Trokair get continously sacked to Smokestacks and pull out all Plains from both our decks. Armageddon acts as spot removal, making permanents die to Smokestack or even Magus. Our hand size basically never goes under 7 for the whole mid-late game as we discard like crazy.

In the end, we're both one hit away from death and he pulls out a tough win by leaving me one mana away from stopping an attacking Mishra's Factory. Good game.

3: Shit, we have to draw. This sucks, we're both going to end up in the Landstill-filled draw bracket... what? Two minutes left in the round? Oh well, I guess I'll just kill you on turn 5 with double Angel and both Factories then.

1-0

Round 2: Alain Seissi playing BG Control

Lose the die roll again. Our table is picked at random for a playset of foil Faerie Conclaves for the winner. We split it since neither of us cares, although now that I think of it we might as well have left the playset whole.

1: Pernicious Deed. Krosan Grip (nice MD pick). Eternal Witness for Grip. Revive for Pernicious Deed. I mentally prepare for a horrendous humiliation, as I hardcast an Exalted Angel headed for certain death, and his answer is... Screams from Within. Followed by a... is that a Martyr of Spores?

Uhm.

Maybe this won't be that tough after all. Six hits from a 3/4 Angel do the job.

I bring in the Suppression Fields; I forgot what I sided out.

2: Like in game 1, he destroys every non-land permanent I play, and he also has a Putrefy for my Magus. He keeps attacking me with an Eternal Witness, and plink-plink-plink I'm down to 2 life as he clinches a hand probably full of answers, then I topdeck...

... Kor Haven. Super Secret Tech saves the day!

I stall for a boatload of turns here while I keep drawing lands and Crucible, while he is stuck on two Forests and a Swamp thanks to my Wastelands. Eventually an Angel shows up, gets hardcast, and goes unanswered. Whew.

This opponent was very nice and methodical, but I still wonder what the hell was up with his deck. It sure wasn't a money problem - his Bayous were black bordered, his Witnesses foil, and his Pernicious Deeds were fucking Judge Promos.

2-0

Round 3: Liviano Buso playing UW Landstill

Liviano is a pretty friendly guy. I lose the die roll again.

1: We exchange threats and counters during the early turns, but he manages to drop a Crucible first with both fetches and (uh-oh) Wastelands in the yard. I have no Crucible, so my chances look grim. I keep playing for a while hoping to eventually force through the Smokestack-Armageddon combo, but alas, his counterwall does not fail.

I bring in Fields, Grids, and a Grunt in place of the Magi and the Prisons.

I begin to miss the fifth Armageddon.

2: Turn 1 Defense Grid resolves, and I execute my game plan with ease. He scoops fairly soon.

3: Like in game 1, he counters a few of my early threats and drops Crucible with fetchlands to ensure consistent land drops (but no Wasteland). Unlike in game 1, with the help of a Defense Grid I manage to resolve first a Smokestack (well, actually he allows this since he's got Crucible recursion and I don't) and then an Armageddon, after baiting with some other spell (another Armageddon, I think). Smokestack eats his Crucible, then I use some sandbagged lands to keep him under hardlock.

Now he quite literally can't win; unfortunately, he's got a Plains and a Swords to Plowshares for my first Angel, and by the time I find another creature (a Grunt, who had more than enough food to finish him) the extra turns have begun and I am unable to finish him.

Had I scooped G1 as soon as it was clear he had enough countermagic to back up his clock, I would have won this one. Damnit.

At least, we get to talk about Landstill between rounds. He laments some of the common issues with straight U/W builds, and I give him Marius Hausmann's UWb list to try out.

2-0-1

Round 4: Stefano Dusso playing UB Fish/Breakfast/Stiflenought

He knows what I'm playing, I don't. Good for him, though, since as it turns out this is a damn good matchup for me.

Yet another die roll loss. Because it's not like I'm piloting a deck where it matters, of course.

1: After an opening Thoughtseize he drops a Confidant, but other than that his draws are pretty crappy: he gets his Shuko and a pair of crappy Narcomoebas. Meanwhile Chalice@1 proves savage against his draws, and double Ghostly Prison denies him the attack step; I eventually lock him out.

I'm not really sure how to side against this - I bring in the Fields, obviously, replacing the Magi, and turn two Ghostly Prisons into Windborn Muses, probably thinking that he's short on removal and lacks a real clock (I didn't know about the StifleNought combo, although I should have suspected it).

2: He keeps a risky hand of Underground Sea, Ponder, 2x Brainstorm, Daze, Needle (for Wasteland), Thoughtseize (which eats my Suppression Field). Unfortunately his cantripping fails to find any land and I get about 6-7 turns to do whatever I want to him.


3-0-1. According to the HJ, I now only need another win to make Top 8.


Round 5: Sandro Campigotto playing Turbo Enchantress

He has a huge-ass gilded d20 die to roll: nice penis, man. Oh, and obviously I lose the die roll.

1: I know he's playing Enchantress, so I happily keep a hand with little action but an Angel and an Armageddon. Unfortunately I did not quite know what kind of Enchantress he was playing. The turn before I can Armageddon, he starts to chain Gaea's Touches, Early Harvests, and cheap enchantments into a Hunting Pack for lethal damage followed by a Concordant Crossroads. Aww, shit.

For the sideboard, the Smokestacks are an easy cut, replaced by Oblivion Rings, and I drop a Prison to complete the playset. But this still looks grim. Again I wish for Ravages of War.

2: I may play this deck my whole life and never get such an ungodly start. Turn 1 Tomb, Chalice@1. Turn two Land, Mox, Chalice@2. Turn 3 Crucible, replay City of Traitors, morphed Angel. Turn 4 Armageddon. Ouch.

After this huge beating, Sandro gets a bit nervous and hints he might be willing to consider a draw. And here is my biggest screwup of the whole tournament, more stupid even than the round 3 draw.

I should have accepted right the fuck away - I should have torn off his hand and make him sign the slip in his blood. He has a fast clock, and most of my disruption barely affects him, with all his basic lands and mana acceleration. Chalices are about as good as it gets against him, and he's packing Seals of Primordium for those (a full playset, I discovered) along with possibly Oblivion Rings (none, it turns out). I can put up a fight against Enchantress, but this is something like a 5-95 matchup. Offering the draw was his massive screwup.

But no, I was inebriated by the savageness of Game 2, which was so insane it had drawn several spectators. I somehow persuade myself that I will get a strike of luck twice in a row. I start shuffling for game 3.

Which is a near-exact replica of Game 1. GG.

3-1-1

Okay, now let's get calm: I just need to win this round. It's not like I have to win six in a row: it's just one. I have a fair shot at it. Right?

Round 6: Massimo Scalchi playing 4C Landstill with Tarmogoyf

...fuck this world and every fucker that's ever fucked in it.

The sixth lost die roll in a row. But at this point, I'm above such petty matters.

1: I can't remember much about this one, but I believe I had an OK hand that was just overclassed by double Deed and a few key counterspells. I think a turn 1 Trinisphere got Forced. According to my notes, it's death by Mishra's Factory.

I bring in the Fields, Grids, and three Rings, siding out Magi, Prisons, a Trinisphere, and I think an Angel.

2: This one is a completely unfair beating. I resolve turn 1 Grid, and follow it straight up with Wastelock. He concedes as soon as an Angel shows up with Chalice@1 in play.

3: My first hand has no lands; my second one is (I remember this one starkly) City of Traitors, Mox Diamond, Chalice of the Void, Crucible of Worlds, Armageddon, Exalted Angel.

I ponder this one for a while. This is a bad matchup; in addition to Deeds he has Grips - I saw him discard one during G2 - and Goyfs are decidedly better than Stifle or Spell Snare against my deck. A five-card hand has pretty slim odds of making it.

On the other side, an extra land would make this hand very good; a Defense Grid instead of Chalice is about all I could have hoped for. Since I'm on the draw, I have two turns to find it, and even if I get it on the third turn I may not be in too much trouble. I have 25 lands left in my 43 cards; I decide to go with these odds.

Tropical Island, go.
City of Traitors, Chalice. Brainstorm in response. Chalice resolves.
Waste your City of Traitors, go.
Draw: not a land.
Draw: not a land.

3-2-1. Good tournament.


Sixteenth place, out of 47 players. I suppose that's not entirely awful for my first ever Constructed tournament in real life.

technogeek5000
04-02-2008, 05:27 PM
...fuck this world and every fucker that's ever fucked in it.


I loled

Im guessing that you didnt try windborn muse in place of exalted angel. When i was testing the deck I liked it because its just like magus (if not a little more killable): its a beater and a lock piece. All of the time i would get a muse and a prison and it always spells game over when you prevent them from casting a answer to it.

Also lots of lists use oblivion ring, and it seems like it could have helped you out if you had it. Im not sure what could be cutted for it though.

Silverdragon
04-02-2008, 07:11 PM
Grats on the solid finish Nihil. Nice to see Stax doing ok even against scary decks/cards.


[...] its just like magus (if not a little more killable): its a beater and a lock piece. All of the time i would get an Angel and a prison and it always spells game over when you prevent them from casting a answer to it.


Notice how I replaced "Muse" with Angel because frankly Exalted Angel serves exactly the same purpose as Muse, stopping your opponent's beaters from killing you. However contrary to Muse the Angel has a power of 4 so if she beats she beats hard.
I also talked about Angel as a lock piece here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=173917&postcount=167)

1. Exalted Angel

I was always a fan of Exalted Angel for its ability to finish games really quick. Only recently I've discovered that, crazy as it sounds, Exalted Angel might in fact be another lockpiece. Think about Blinding Angel and compare it to Exalted. In a sense Exalted is just another softlock component for opposing aggrodecks. Ghostly Prison effectively says your opponent needs at least 2 mana to attack and consequently deal damage. Angel says your opponent needs at least 5 power of creatures on the table to deal damage. So theoretically just as he has to draw more mana when he's manascrewed he needs to draw more power/additional or bigger creatures when he's "locked" by Exalted. The lifegain works against non-infine damage based combo (Tendrils) and Burn in a similar way. Think of it as a pseudo Disrupting Scepter. Every time you gain life your opponent needs one more spell to kill you.
If you add to this the fact that Angel can be morphed already at 3 colorless mana whereas Muse always needs 4 mana (thereby slightly but not unnoticeably increasing your manacurve) it seems quite clear to me that Angel is the stronger choice in most metagames.
(Mind you I didn't say Muse is bad. I just wanted to show that you shouldn't cut Angel for it.)

Arsenal
04-03-2008, 11:29 AM
How do you guys approach the Enchantress matchup? I've been getting raped online lately.

Tacosnape
04-03-2008, 11:43 AM
How do you guys approach the Enchantress matchup? I've been getting raped online lately.

Sideboard Presence of the Master and Crypt for Replenish?(shrug)

Other than that, you just have to sort of accept that Enchantress is not a matchup you want to see. They run a ton of stuff that makes your head explode, Karmic Justice being the worst.

Arsenal
04-03-2008, 11:47 AM
Good. I though it was just me. I boarded in Seals, Sphere of Law, and Suppression Fields, but still got raped. Opponent drawing 8 cards per turn = GGPO.

Nihil Credo
04-03-2008, 02:28 PM
Suppression Field is useless, and so is Sphere of Law (if they get to the point of killing you with WoW, they will HAVE the removal).

There are two cards which really matter here: Oblivion Ring and Armageddon. The former gets rid of the seriously problematic stuff like Karmic Justice, and can eat Enchantress' Presence to slow them down. The latter is the one and only thing that can win you the game, preferably in multiples. No Armageddon = no win, basically.

Early Chalices, Wastelands and Trinispheres to shut off or slow down their acceleration are also helpful, but nowhere near in the same league.

Gambit
04-04-2008, 01:13 PM
ManaBase Discussion:
My Current:
4x flagstones
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
6x Plains
3x Wasteland
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Mishra's Factory
1x Tabernacle

Other Options I've heard discussed:
Blue: Artifact recursion
-2 plains
-1 taber

for:
2x tundra
1x Academy Ruins



This seems interesting, I like the idea of this against control, but is it consistant enough? There's no way to fetch the ruins, what would come out and would it be worth it?

Nomad Stadium:
Recurring life gain, I don't like the pinging, but it could be good?

Less than 4x of Either city of traitors or flagstones....why?

Tabernacle....judgement call; I like it, I own 1, I've gone down to 3 Magi (magus's?) maindeck and added a 2nd angel because I've still got 4 tabernacle effects.

Horizon Canopy; I was a little skeptical, but it really is awsome. Drawing cards is not something this deck does, but this card can find you more gas.

What are everyones thoughts on the manabase; what absolutely stays and what are options? What are your thoughts on the minimal blue splash?

Dark_Cynic87
04-05-2008, 03:22 PM
If you splash blue the thought would be to use Cephalid Coliseum instead of H. Canopy. Works as a quasi-LftL with Crucible and Academy Ruins, Extirpate and other graveyard hate notwithstanding.

Also, I think 4x Factory is a necessity vs. Thresh b/c it can sit there and block 'Geese and Goyf all day long. It'll get you into mid and late game, giving you the upper hand, and eventually the win via a wastelock and/or geddon+Taber effect.

Also, Intuition is your fetch-all. If you don't like a green splash for LftL (which isn't necessary in any way) you can go for a Petrified Field, so that you can intuition into Ruins, Field and Crux. Seems reliable enough...Also, you don't need as many Wastes with Intuition, and you can also probably knock down/out Flagstones for reg. Fetches. maybe go 3x Fetches 3x Tundra. 4x Plains, 2x Island. -Canopy +Coliseum, -Waste +Petrified Field.

If you want you could drop a plains for a Stadium, but LG isn't that important...

With a splash, your matchup vs. Moon effects becomes strictly more relevent and much more dangerous. O-Rings and/or bounce would be a huge necessity.

Storm has become a much bigger problem with the addition of Serenity, has anyone seen this yet? Serenity needs answered before your next upkeep. This requires instant-speed answers. If storm is big where you play, I'd look into something. Disenchant, something. Chalicing @ 2 may be the most important play against storm as of now. Not that it's a good matchup without them playing Serenity, but...

Fred Bear
04-06-2008, 09:04 AM
Just a couple of comments...

@ Blue Splash - The idea gets cycled through over and over again. I say the same thing over and over again. It's a neat idea, but look at the list of bad match-ups and ask - does it improve any of them? (I don't think the match-up vs Blood Moon is necessarily 'more' relevant, it just makes it 'worse' and it really depends which deck with Blood Moon you're referring to) The answer to my question, though, is no it won't improve any bad match-ups, unforntunately (I have tested it - not every iteration, of course, but in general).

What I found was that (1) Academy Ruins takes time. On it's own, if you play a 1-of, it is largely random when you see it and when you don't. A 2-of and you see it seldom when you want it. As a 3-of, you see it, but over half the time - you never want to use it and I always wished it was any other land (Plains, Factory, Wasteland, etc.). When you do use it, it is basically a weak Enlightened Tutor for U2. I say weak because you can only search artifacts in your graveyard, but you still trade a draw for whatever card you 'need' back. This made it extremely slow since if the artifact (no enchantment recursion) was in your graveyard already, you either discarded it or they already removed it - the long way of saying its sllllooooowwww.

(2) Intuition is great if there is a 'silver bullet' that if you have it in a particular match-up - you win. Trinisphere vs Belcher is a good example (It's very difficult for them to overcome an early Trinisphere). List the number of maindeck silver bullets against the decks you are likely to see in a tournament... I'll wait. You'll see that 'most' of the Stax elements are 'good' against most of the meta, but very few 'win' the game outright.

If we look at the case where you don't have Academy Ruins in play, and you cast Intuition, I found... (a) You strengthen good match-ups against anyone not playing counters. Most are not auto-win(scoop), but you will put yourself in better position. (b) Depending on the game-state, non-counter-based bad match-ups become a little better. You can usually get a game win against Loam and Deadguy with a Chalice at 2. This becomes much more relevant post board. (c) Any decent player with counters will 4-for-1 you trading Intuition + all three cards to your graveyard for 1 counter. You might catch them off guard once, but they will adapt.

(3) Academy Ruins + Intuition could've been time spent trying to win the game. Probably not the description most expected, but here's the nuts and bolts of it... If you play Ruins as a 1- or 2-of, you won't find enough to be relevant, so you have to go get it with Intuition #1. This is similar to playing a card that says, "Search your library for Crucible, Ruins, and 1 other card. Put the Crucible and Ruins in play and the other card in your graveyard. Target opponent gets 2 extra turns." You don't have to play it like that, but then, why are you playing it?

Now you play the normal Stax game, until you draw into Intuition #2, which for the most part does rock, if you need it at that point. Largely, I found that by the time Intuition #2 showed up at the party, you were either going after a win condition (to speed up the damage if the opponent wouldn't concede), or you were getting the last piece necessary to get you back into the game or complete a lock. I typically found the former, because I would typically have conceded the other games because of the low percentage of times it happens (mostly either randomly against already good match-ups where I would be favored post-board or against poor pilots of poor-to-bad match-ups where they just didn't understand how to finish me).

The bottom line is...

The Blue Splash is a waste of time in White Stax. Blue Stax is a different deck with entirely different pros/cons.

I have to admit, I haven't tested Coliseum with it. But my gut tells me it falls into the same category. I can't really think of a time when you're going to activate it and your not into the mid- or late-game where you should either be already dominant or you've already lost. Petrified Field is good with Intuition, but that's about where it ends.

Serenity isn't as big a problem as it seems. You shouldn't be over-extending yourself anyways. There are a lot of answers to it, if it becomes a popular option. You can play Karmic Justice, Seal of Cleansing, Aura of Silence, True Believer, Glowrider, or Windborn Muse, etc. etc. etc. A card like this becomes popular because Stax players get lazy against such good match-ups and play sloppy. I haven't seen it become an issue yet, but find it hard to believe they would spend a lot of sideboard space on a rare match-up.

Fred Bear...

Bane of the Living
04-06-2008, 04:37 PM
My eyes popped out of their sockets when I saw this sick tech in the top eight thread..

2nd - Abraham Ureña - Armageddon Stax

Maindeck:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Mishra's Factory
7 Plains
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Wasteland
2 Exalted Angel
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

Sideboard:
1 Peacekeeper
2 Defense Grid
3 Powder Keg
3 Rule of Law
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Suppression Field

This card seems amazing against everything that wants to win through the attack phase. It certainly stomps on Ichorids nuts as well as Dragon Stompy. It can hold off as many goyfs as you need it too and Chalice protects it from Swords.

Sanguine Voyeur
04-06-2008, 05:17 PM
You're joking, I was thinking of that card last week. I was going through random cards on Magic Cards Info and though "That could be good in white Stax. Well, sideboard at least."

But, yeah, it's a decent card to side in after they take out creature removal. If you can keep it out and pay for it without using Tomb, you should be able to stall until you can solidify your lock. It's like Moat, except it can come down a turn quicker and it cost more then 100 times less.

I need more tin foil hats.

Machinus
04-07-2008, 01:25 AM
He's a 1/1 that uses your white mana every turn. I'd rather have Magus for :1: more.

overseer1234
04-07-2008, 09:16 AM
This card seems amazing against everything that wants to win through the attack phase. It certainly stomps on Ichorids nuts as well as Dragon Stompy. It can hold off as many goyfs as you need it too and Chalice protects it from Swords.

Dragon Stompy has 4 sulfur elemental and 4 slogger to nuke this guy so I don't think this little guy will help for that, I'd also rather have an extra magus.

Skeggi
04-08-2008, 01:58 PM
Peacekeeper has been replaced by Ghostly Prison afaik. Besides; if you'd rather have a creature than an enchantment I'd go for Windborn Muse; flying, 2 toughness, 1 mana more, but no upkeep, which would be hard to pay if you also have a magus on table: that means :1: for the magus and :2::w: for the peacekeeper = :3::w:; you could have casted an Armageddon this turn)

Is Aura of Silence up for consideration against enchantress? Or is the double white too much to handle?

Fred Bear
04-08-2008, 04:40 PM
I like Aura of Silence in the side. I use it if I expect lots of enchantress, affinity, or even the mirror. The only question I have is how often do you really expect to see enchantress or affinity or the mirror? Is it often enough to really want to use sideboard space for it - or more common difficult match-ups? This is an actual question, I see enchantress quite a bit online, but not in massive numbers elsewhere.

Peacekeeper is an interesting idea, but I agree with much of what has been said. A 1/1 that sucks up mana and is only really good against a small number of decks. Why bother?

Fred Bear...

Arsenal
04-08-2008, 05:09 PM
I actually prefer O. Ring over Aura of Silence in the Enchantress matchup. Karmic Justice makes destroy effects far less appealing to me, especially when you NEED permanents around to feed to your Smokestack. Also, the 1WW can be a pain sometimes. Not often, but sometimes. 2W for O.Ring makes it's more friendly when you're in a manapinch.

Fred Bear
04-08-2008, 10:08 PM
It's the taxing effect of Aura of Silence that makes it so good against Enchantress. I would play it in addition to Oblivion Ring, though, not instead of...

Dark_Cynic87
04-09-2008, 01:08 PM
If you see a lot of Enchantress, I recommend using O-Rings, Aura of Silence AND Pithing Needle after SB. Needle/O-Ring WoW. O-Ring Enchantresses that you can, and get your lock down QUICK. If you can get Stax and Crux down by turn 2/3, you should do ok game 1.

Arsenal
04-09-2008, 01:20 PM
The #1 target with O.Ring is usually Karmic Justice; that single card effectively negates your entire deck.

Zach Tartell
04-09-2008, 01:50 PM
I actually prefer O. Ring over Aura of Silence in the Enchantress matchup. Karmic Justice makes destroy effects far less appealing to me, especially when you NEED permanents around to feed to your Smokestack. Also, the 1WW can be a pain sometimes. Not often, but sometimes. 2W for O.Ring makes it's more friendly when you're in a manapinch.


It's the taxing effect of Aura of Silence that makes it so good against Enchantress. I would play it in addition to Oblivion Ring, though, not instead of...


If you see a lot of Enchantress, I recommend using O-Rings, Aura of Silence AND Pithing Needle after SB. Needle/O-Ring WoW. O-Ring Enchantresses that you can, and get your lock down QUICK. If you can get Stax and Crux down by turn 2/3, you should do ok game 1.


The #1 target with O.Ring is usually Karmic Justice; that single card effectively negates your entire deck.

Uh, guys, I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but why do you care about Enchantress even a little? Like, I'm (kind of a big deal) one of the first people to say that Enchantress rozz0rz. But even I would say that more than like four people play the deck.

Seriously.

I mean, MWS doesn't count. Use it to test, maybe, but don't count anything that isn't in the DTB forum for results. You might run into like 100 mono-:b: shadow agro decks, but that doesn't mean that you'll actually run into one at a tournament. The same is unfortunately true of Enchantress.

Additionally, go with Aura of Silence. Ob Ring is useless after turn three or four or five. A competent player (read: anyone with enough gumption to go out and buy a moat) will see it coming and go for Sterling Grove.

Also, unless you're running Hanna's Vigalince or whatever then a single pithing needle on Words of War won't accomplish much. You're better off going for Supression Feilds.

Edit: Sacred Ground is pretty good too, I hear.

Fred Bear
04-09-2008, 03:12 PM
@lonelybaritone - That was exactly my point in the post prior to the one you quoted... There are a lot more match-ups that a White Stax player is more likely to see in a big tournament that require sideboard space, i.e. Landstill & Survival. The only reason I have tested this more is because I've thought a lot about building Enchantress (I'm just a big fan of board control).

Fred Bear...

kkoie
04-10-2008, 12:46 PM
Greetings! Long time lurker first time poster here:

I've been messing around with 'geddon stax for a couple of weeks now to great satisfaction, though I noticed several matchups in testing that came out as 50/50 in my results. I have my maindeck pretty well established, but I am still attempting to nail down a relevant sideboard. The meta in my area is fairly unknown at this time, because tournaments are rather infrequent (though I and a couple of others are trying our best to fix that!) In any event what follows is my current deck list. I would appreciate comments on sideboard options for a wideopen meta (probably consisting of lots of control and aggro decks, very few combo decks except a roguish Aluren build and rarely solidarity).

Land
6 Plains
4 Flagstones
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Mishra's Factory
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Creatures
3 Exalted Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

Artifacts
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void

Enchantments
4 Ghostly Prison
1 Moat

Spells
4 Armageddon

Sideboard
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Suppression Field
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Aura of Silence
my sideboard was 3 crypt, 2 suppression 4 o-ring, 3 aura of sil. and 3 def. grid. But I changed it to this because I wasn't sure if I really needed def. grids and wanted more sup. fields.

Arsenal
04-10-2008, 12:52 PM
Moat shuts down 5 our of your 8 win conditions. I wouldn't maindeck Moat unless you plan on seeing 100% aggro, and even then, your other lock pieces should be able to do the job.

kkoie
04-11-2008, 08:58 AM
My reasoning for maindecking moat was that it would give me more time to wreck their board, and when I'm ready to start attacking with my non-flyers, I could sack moat to smokestack.

Fred Bear
04-11-2008, 09:59 AM
Here's the thing...

Using Moat to stop legitimate threats in your metagame = reasonable.

Using Moat to "give me more time to wreck their board" = waste of time.

One of the pitfalls to playing a prison archetype is the 'cool' interactions that ultimately don't win the game. Once you have a lock established, focus on winning. A 1-of Moat would be better as almost any other card since it will only randomly do anything useful for you (since you have no way to search it out).

I would recommend dropping it and either a Smokestack or an Exalted Angel for 2x Oblivion Ring. Unless your meta really calls for it, like Arsenal pointed out (if you play against a ton of non-flying aggro).

Fred Bear...

Skeggi
04-12-2008, 03:50 AM
This is what I've come up with so far:

4 Ancient Tomb
2 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Kor Haven
4 City of Traitors
6 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair

4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Armageddon

3 Oblivion Ring
3 Ghostly Prison

3 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Exalted Angel

(No SB yet)

I don't win as much as I'd like, heck, I lose to standard and block decks. The findings I've made so far:

I always want another ring, I can't get enough it seems.
I never seem to pick the right lockpiece, whether I want Armageddon, Smokestack, a Crucible, they never come when I want it.

There are people who suggested splashing blue for stuff like Intuition or Academy Ruins, problem is, what you said: they're slow. So my question is; wouldn't an Enlightened Tutor be faster? Doesn't grab you the Armageddon, but it virtually grabs you anything.

Im also thinking of dropping a factory for a plains...

So...any ideas?

GGoober
04-12-2008, 03:57 AM
enlightened tutor is strictly bad in Stax. It is too slow, anti-synergistic with Chalice at 1 or Trinisphere in play. A good Stax player would rely more on playing and tinkering with the lock piece, than wasting slots for tutors to find answers to the board. Most importantly, Enlightened tutor is not a permanent, and is not synergistic in GeddonStax as a whole.

I agree on running ORings. Orings has saved me from a ton of games, and answered many forms of hate. Stax is a prison control that cannot selectively remove permanents, but Oring does this well, and the mana requirements is perfect for this deck.

Silverdragon
04-12-2008, 10:44 PM
I don't win as much as I'd like, heck, I lose to standard and block decks.
I wouldn't worry about that. If you really want to win against Standard and Block decks cut the Chalices and maybe even the Trinispheres for cards that actually effect their curve (I don't know much about the current Standard but Winter Orb could be good against Reveillark and Defense Grid out of the board will just wreck Faeries :wink:). You should definitely play 4 Ghostly Prison as it is the MVP in every aggro matchup and can even give aggro-control nightmares.
On the issue of not drawing what you need, well all I can say here is that you have to trust in your deck because math says that you will draw what you need more often than not in a reasonable time. Of course you also have to look for ways to stall the board so you get more drawsteps to find what you need. This is especially important in your mulligan decisions. If your hand does not have a reasonable plan for the first few turns, mulligan. This deck often gets hands an unexperienced player would keep because they have a good mix of mana and spells however you have to think ahead and anticipate what your opponent is going to throw at you and whether you can survive that not just whether you can cast everything in your hand during the first few turns.


Im also thinking of dropping a factory for a plains...

That's not a bad idea imo. If you drop the Factory you'll still have 8 winconditions which is enough especially with 3 Angels and you'll definitely have fewer color problems (again good because you play 3 Angels and want to support a Kor Haven).
With 2 Factories and the Kor Haven combined with Oblivion Rings I think your defenses against a random singleton Fattie (Tarmogoyf *cough*) are still enough, nonetheless, like I said above, I'd still try to squeeze in the last copy of Prison because in multiples it can simply shut down some decks.


Now @Moat I think some of you are looking at it a little narrow-minded. Yes you shut down some of your win conditions but you should not forget the raw power a Moat brings to the table and with 3-4 Exalted Angels in the deck I think you also should not be too concerned about winning.
@Fred Bear when you say "Using Moat to 'give me more time to wreck their board' = waste of time." you are basically right however more often than not you actually DO wreck their board when Moat hits because all their non-flying dudes have become worthless.
Compare Moat to Oblivion Ring, there will be situations where Ring is even worse in helping you win or even just locking up the board. (Of course I understand that the main purpose of Ring is to deal with troublesome stuff like Deed or Gaddock Teeg, I just wanted to show that there already is a card played in Stax that does not "win the game" or "lock up the board".) The main advantage Oblivion Ring has over Moat that ensures Ring gets some slots is its easy manacost of 2W compared to 2WW.

Concerning Enlightened Tutor I have to say that I tested decks and even played some in tournaments that had the "no-go" combination of Chalice and 1cc spells (Goblin Welder; Swords to Plowshares; Pithing Needle and Spellbombs for example) and I didn't have a big problem yet because a) often Chalice @1 is strong enough that it doesn't matter if you lock out 4 of your 60 cards in your own deck and b) you only have about a 40% chance of getting a Chalice in your opening hand, the chance of also playing it first turn are even lower so more often than not you will be able to play at least 1 1cc spell before Chalice comes down.
However I tested Enlightened Tutor and aside from the Chalice problem (which as I already explained was actually not a problem) the card has a big problem all by itself. It puts the card you are looking for on the top of your library. And let me tell you in this deck this card- (and to a lesser extend tempo-) disadvantage is significant.

Skeggi
04-13-2008, 04:13 AM
However I tested Enlightened Tutor and aside from the Chalice problem (which as I already explained was actually not a problem) the card has a big problem all by itself. It puts the card you are looking for on the top of your library. And let me tell you in this deck this card- (and to a lesser extend tempo-) disadvantage is significant.

This is exactly what I feared about it, wasn't too scared of the Chalice either. Anyway, I've switched a factory to a plains, that does wonders already; 1 more use on a flagstone. I'm even considering dropping 1 flagstone for another plains. 3 might be enough. I'm going to have a look where I can slide in the Prison, thanks for the advice.

GGoober
04-13-2008, 04:13 AM
Just played a couple of games today with Geddon Stax and I would like to stress the importance that the deck succeeds because of the insane synergy of denying mana to opponents, while playing about geddon effects after a resolved Armageddon. I don't like Moat although currently it answers 80% of the creatures in Legacy. It doesn't end Dragonstompy's Pit Dragon, and Faerie Stompy. I think that Ghostly Prison is a lot better due to its favorable casting cost 2W, rather than 2WW in Moat, which sees turn only at turn 2+. With the mana denial strategy of GeddonStax, I feel that Ghostly Prison is in fact better than Moat. Other white control decks run Moat because they don't have the mana denial strategy as we do in Stax, hence I'm still in support of Prison.

I had tested Enlightened Tutor. It is usually good mid-late game, but by then you should have either Chalice at 1 or Trinisphere in play, that basically does not work well with the Tutor. As Silverdragon often mentioned: it is a slow play, and can your spell can be countered. But most importantly, I think it's not synergistic with the deck with Chalice at 1 or Trinisphere. Assuming you do play it turn 1, then are you forgoing a possible turn 1 Chalice at 1, or Trinisphere (since you've taken up a mana for tutoring). If you argue that the tutor is for the sake of getting Chalice or Trinisphere, then I would rather mulligan into one.

I am never disappointed to see Angel. She's saved so many games by negating Tomb damage and gaping the player life by 8 per turn. She delays the opponent sometimes until the deck finds it's hard lock. I run 3 Angels, and I'm not sure about 4 copies so let me know about if 3 is ideal.

Lastly on Oblivion Ring: I really love this card. It answers about all the threat that this deck faces, while you play out your lock pieces. It answers everything from Deeds, Tarmogoyf, Vial, basically anything that has escaped your lock pieces or pose a threat to your lock.

I love this deck, and I hope Shadowmoor gives us a little more :D

Skeggi
04-13-2008, 07:43 AM
I love this deck, and I hope Shadowmoor gives us a little more :D

Here's a possible sideboard card, unfortunately it has a mana cost of 2:

Sun-and-Moon Wheel :wg: :wg:
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant player
Whenever a card would be put into the graveyard of enchanted player from anywhere, the card is revealed and put onto the bottom of that player's library.

Fred Bear
04-13-2008, 09:28 AM
@ Skeggi - Not trying to be a dick, here, but you could get the last Prison by putting the 60th card in the deck :wink: (the list you posted only has 59 - don't know if you edited that list and lost a card, or something).

@ Silverdragon - You are absolutely right about Moat. It will often times wreck your opponent. There are very few decks that will be able to handle it maindeck. And I also understand that we play cards that do not 'win the game', that wasn't my point. My point was more to the consistency >> random wrecking from a 1-of. I would be a bigger fan of dropping another card and adding in the second Moat - if the meta calls for it. If my meta has lots of goblins or other aggro in it, then Moat is awesome and offers good redundancy to Ghostly Prison. If my meta has Fairy or Dragon Stompy, Moat would be 10x better as Oblivion Ring.

@ 1-cc Dis-sinergy with Chalice - Just to reiterate what has already been said... Judge it based on the overall power of the 1cc spell in that match-up. Chalice at 1 is one of the best and most consistent plays this deck makes, but there are still several match-ups where Pithing Needle, Swords, etc. etc. are all worth the risk of having dead cards because of their independant usefullness. (And for what it's worth, I found Enlightened Tutor useful in 2 matches in my testing of it - Deadguy/Discard since it 'protects' your search, you can cast it in response to discard, and you can use it to find 'silver bullets'. And some builds of Survival since you don't lose tempo since it 'matches' theirs and you can use it to find 'silver bullets'. I found that neither match-up was worth the amount of sideboard space it requires to run effectively, though.)

Now - to start some 'controversial' conversation - a little thread 'firestarter' if you will...

I kind of feel like this deck has become stagnant in its development. That doesn't mean that I don't think it's developing or evolving with the meta, but I a little disappointed that we haven't achieved any breakthough (outside of getting more people to play the deck). I'm as much a part of the problem as anyone else (I don't mean to minimize the progress of the deck to this point - Machinus, Bane, Silverdragon, Nihil, and too many others to name have done a tremendous job to this point) - I've tested a lot of things, but they are admittedly evolutionary in nature...

Aside - I do research for a living and there is a distinction made between Evolutionary and Revolutionary. Evolutionary changes are made in order to adapt (in my field, you make a product better for a customer and are able to sell it to a broader market). Revolutionary changes are what makes your company a market leader (you bring a totally 'new' product or process to the marketplace). - End Aside

What I'm proposing is that we (collectively) re-dissect the list and make sure that the assumptions hold true for today's meta and answer several questions... What basic deck building assumption holds us back in development? What cards really make up the deck's core? What are the meta slots? What is the optimum list vs specific archetypes? Is there a card that makes a color splash worthwhile?

I'll start the discussion with some decklists that I have tried...

White Stax - Tried and True

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
8 Plains

3 Magus of the Tabernacle

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Ravages of War
2 Armageddon

That list is pretty basic. I have focused more on the mana denial and taxation strategies, obviously. My meta-slots are the O-Rings, the 5th 'geddon, and the 4th Stack. I have played with this list for a couple of years and am most comfortable in an unknown meta playing this list. My sideboard varies, but it typically consistents of Needles, Suppression Field (which every time I take them out - I kick myself), Sphere of Law and Resistance, recently CoP:Green, and my current MVP - Guardian of the Guildpact (look it up, I'll wait)... All-in-all, just a no-frills list. I'm currently testing 1x Maze of Ith or 1x Kor Haven (as Nihil suggested).

White Stax - 'Growing a Pair of Balls' Update

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
8 Plains

3 Magus of the Tabernacle

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Sphere of Resistance
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
2 Talisman of Progress or Unity
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Ravages of War
2 Armageddon

This list evolved from tinkering with some Vintage '9-Ball' MUD and Stax lists. This deck focuses more on an explosive start, followed up with a mid-game Armageddon 'finish'. The deck plays okay, but it always seems to be missing something... On the play, I really like this list since you have a higher probability of locking your opponent out of a couple turns. Sphere of Resistance is better than expected because it messes with every deck's math. This list really cuts down on the number of times control decks Brainstorm into free counters. But I haven't tested it fully and just offer it for discussion...

White Stax - Green Splash Library Stax

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Nantuko Monastery
4 Plains

2 Magus of the Tabernacle

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Sylvan Library
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Words of Wilding
3 Ravages of War
2 Armageddon

Two opening comments - Sylvan Library is the only card that I have tested as a splash, liked the results, and improved results. The mana base looks like a crack whore wiped it off her ass, but it's surprisingly consistent when combined with Library. Portal is obviously my favorite card to pitch to a turn-one Mox, since it basically fixes my mana for the rest of the game. Canopy may be unecessary and the Monastery or a Factory could easily become more colored sources. This build focuses on getting to a lock quicker and more consistently and then overwhelming the opponent much faster under a suffocating Stax. Green also opens up a much broader spectrum of sideboard options - Krosan Grip, Choke, Tarmogoyf :mad: ...

I have long been a fan of this deck because it rewards you for knowing how to play your match-ups with very close to even results almost across the board. I believe, though, that as the meta evolves around us - we do not have to be content with just evolving the deck to match the format. I believe that we can be more pro-active, force ourselves to reevaluate the Stax shell, and potentially make some 'revolutionary' progress.

What do you guys think? Machinus? Silverdragon? Bane? Nihil? I'll call you fellas out first since you all obviously have a lot of experience with the deck and archetype, but I hope we'll hear everyone's opinions.

Fred Bear...

P.S. Like I said - this is a firestarter or motivational post (I'm not trying to flame anyone)... I'm also not trying to minimize anyone's contributions and I'm sorry if I didn't name you directly and you feel slighted. I have been tinkering and testing with this deck since Machinus' original Starcity articles and have read all the pages of all the historical threads on this deck. I don't have a 'team' and I'm not a 'pro', but I just feel like the deck is on the verge of achieving the next level and I think the group here should be able to take it there... So, here's to a hopefully 'revolutionary' discussion! FB...

GGoober
04-13-2008, 02:48 PM
Fred I like the lists you posted up and I feel that it's always good to discuss new variants for possible deck evolution. Anyone remembered how GeddonStax used to run WOG and no armageddons? The current version is a lot stronger than the previous version.

I would like to point out that despite the various builds out there, Armageddon is perhaps the unique card: not many decks are built to play around Armageddon (many decks recover from WOG, but not many from Armageddon). I think no matter what, Armageddon stays with this deck, and so do the Flagstones for just an insane amount of synergy.

I've always loved Library Stax, but it is usually hard to run 2 colors in Stax, due to the heavy use of colorless mana (Tombs, City, Wasteland, Factories). It would definitely weaken the deck's ability to cripple other decks, but would improve consistency and mid-game. I think Library Stax would be great with shuffling effects, but we don't really have such cards for Stax (the closest card around Stax-mana-base is Intuition, but that's blue).

I think 2 Magus is too little. I usually play 3-4 since Magus answers almost all the aggro threats in conjunctin with Ghostly Prison/Armageddon/Wasteland-lock. Magus also blocks Goyf all day. I'm not sure about splashing, but I've tried blue for Academy Ruins and Intuition and I found it was weaker than mono-white because of mana-inconsistency. With Moon effects going around in Legacy, I think sticking to mono would be a safer choice.

I think the recent inclusion is Oblivion Ring, which to me is a good inclusion since it answers a lot of threats that the deck can't target (this deck is board control without targeted removal. Oblivion Ring feels the slot perfectly because of 2W, and it is a permanent which sometimes you can sack it after armageddon has resolved or when the threat no longer poses a problem for you and most importantly, it removes a permanent, which allows Stax to chew up other pieces). I just love sacking Oblivion Ring to Smokestack after Armageddon and freeing a useless Pernicious Deed for the opponent. Another possibility with playable mana is Faith's Fetters. I might want to try this since it cripples any permanents (including lands). Most importantly, it gives the life gain that negates tomb damage. The only thing worse than Oring is that it doesn't remove the permanent, so the opponent can just sack it to Smokestack, but then again, you've accomplished removing a threat to the lock. I really like the lifegain since it is scary how much damage you take while piecing up the lock, but right now I'm in for Oring.

Anyway, I will be brainstorming as well for possibilities and thanks to Fred again for posting up lists!

Dark_Cynic87
04-13-2008, 11:23 PM
Here's a possible sideboard card, unfortunately it has a mana cost of 2:

Sun-and-Moon Wheel :wg: :wg:
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant player
Whenever a card would be put into the graveyard of enchanted player from anywhere, the card is revealed and put onto the bottom of that player's library.

Hmm. Ichorid and Breakfast, and pretty much all storm that is even half-way reliant to IGG just lost g2 to Plains, Mox Diamond, Sun-and-Moon; go. Ok, maybe not a loss, but definitely a must-answer deterrent that would most definitely give you the time to set up staxlock. I will mention that it also negates a Recurring Wasteland, 2-fold even, when fetchlands are involved...



White Stax - Green Splash Library Stax

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Nantuko Monastery
4 Plains

2 Magus of the Tabernacle

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Sylvan Library
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Words of Wilding
3 Ravages of War
2 Armageddon


Wow, this made me throw up a little bit in the back of my throat, not gonna lie. The complete dissynergy of 5 'Geddon effects AND stax mixed with an enchantment that demands mana each turn is rediculous, not to mention that it pumps out creatures while you play Tabernacle effects, bringing me full-circle with the the lack of mana in the first place due to Geddon effects... Plus, you don't even run a way to FIND the cards you need (read: WoW or Library). Monestary and portal over Factories 3 and 4? Wtf for? Portal for an instant-speed bear, or a 2color 4/4 wall (first strike is pretty irrelevant seeing as how it's a STAX list)? No. Plus, I'm pretty sure that at least once on every page since the beginning of this thread it's been stressed that the point of angelstax is that redundancy=consistancy. That is NOT here, not to the slightest degree. You didn't even include Idyllic Tutor, which would add consistancy, unless I'm greatly mistaken. At least that grabs 1 of 11 legal targets out of the deck...

It would be wiser to shove 4 Savannahs in place of 4 plains so you wouldn't have to go so heavy on green, but otherwise maintain the same manabase as MWStax, and use Words of Worship instead; a fetch or 2 for shuffle effects I suppose... This highly reduces the need for the ruination of the manabase. It also replaces the need for Exalted Angels (I've been against using these and Moat for a LOOOOOOONG time). Gives you the "draw" (since you can gain the life right back with Words of Worship, paying 4 life isn't a big deal to get the cards you need), while maintaining some small fashion of redundancy. This also allows you to keep the count of Tabernacle effects at a more appropriate number. I suppose here I could see a little usefulness of a Horizon Canopy...

I really don't know how to go about building this, though. I do know you just solved the pain from fetches and Tombs...to what end I'm uncertain. A singleton Test of Endurance? lol. Seriously, though. It's not a bad idea, I think the implementation was just WAY off.

--DC

Fred Bear
04-14-2008, 07:30 AM
Wow, this made me throw up a little bit in the back of my throat, not gonna lie. The complete dissynergy of 5 'Geddon effects AND stax mixed with an enchantment that demands mana each turn is rediculous, not to mention that it pumps out creatures while you play Tabernacle effects, bringing me full-circle with the the lack of mana in the first place due to Geddon effects... Plus, you don't even run a way to FIND the cards you need (read: WoW or Library). Monestary and portal over Factories 3 and 4? Wtf for? Portal for an instant-speed bear, or a 2color 4/4 wall (first strike is pretty irrelevant seeing as how it's a STAX list)? No. Plus, I'm pretty sure that at least once on every page since the beginning of this thread it's been stressed that the point of angelstax is that redundancy=consistancy. That is NOT here, not to the slightest degree. You didn't even include Idyllic Tutor, which would add consistancy, unless I'm greatly mistaken. At least that grabs 1 of 11 legal targets out of the deck...

It would be wiser to shove 4 Savannahs in place of 4 plains so you wouldn't have to go so heavy on green, but otherwise maintain the same manabase as MWStax, and use Words of Worship instead; a fetch or 2 for shuffle effects I suppose... This highly reduces the need for the ruination of the manabase. It also replaces the need for Exalted Angels (I've been against using these and Moat for a LOOOOOOONG time). Gives you the "draw" (since you can gain the life right back with Words of Worship, paying 4 life isn't a big deal to get the cards you need), while maintaining some small fashion of redundancy. This also allows you to keep the count of Tabernacle effects at a more appropriate number. I suppose here I could see a little usefulness of a Horizon Canopy...

I really don't know how to go about building this, though. I do know you just solved the pain from fetches and Tombs...to what end I'm uncertain. A singleton Test of Endurance? lol. Seriously, though. It's not a bad idea, I think the implementation was just WAY off.

--DC

Hey man, I don't mind criticism, really, but at least take the time to make an informed post and most importantly ask questions if you don't understand something...

#1 - Words of Wilding does not 'require' mana each turn. It's an activated ability. It gives you a bear for :1: every turn after it's in play, which is pretty efficient on it's own. This is really what 'replaces' the additional Factories and Magus to a degree (obviously without the Tabernacle effect). Had you actually tested the deck (or at least asked more questions or even read some of the posts emidln has made in the past), you would see that Words + Sylvan Library = nice little combo churning out an army for :3: to end games very quickly. It also allows you to produce tokens (even under a Tabernacle effect) that sacrifice to Smokestack, effectively allowing you to ramp without consequence to numbers >2 (remember Tabernacle effect = Upkeep, Words = 'usually' Draw step). So the dissynergy that you 'hint' at isn't really there. You can successfully 'geddon, next turn draw, and play as normal (sometimes with a Smokestack at 2) - all with both Library and Words in play.

#2 - I have found that for the most part, tutors suck in Stax. I don't run them because it is very seldom that I 'need' a particular card (if you evaluate your testing data fairly, you will find that a 'silver bullet' may be desired at a certain point, but it is not 'necessary' to win - it just speeds up the win which is a very different evaluation). Look at what non-land changes I made in the list presented compared to the 'traditional' list I posted - -1x Magus, -1x Trinisphere, -1x Smokestack, -1x Oblivion Ring, -1x Land is traded for 3x Sylvan Library, and 2x Words of Wilding. If you are not drawing the Library or Words, you are drawing the traditional Stax elements! And look at what Library does... it helps you dig for solutions (granted it's not Top + Fetchland efficient), but choosing 1 of 3 is better than any random card off the top and you can pay 4 life to dig even deeper. This DOES help with consistency and it allows for playing things as slightly less than 4-ofs since you are 'seeing' more cards. You don't 'need' Library or Words to win, they are simply added to tool box and can help you when they are found (Words is a win condition, but can act as a lock piece with Smokestack or just by providing infinite blockers). *Key point - It does not matter how much life you lose if you win the game.*

#3 - The mana base is admittedly ugly (read my post). But in some places, I've enhanced the 'redundancy' with utility. I play just as many man-lands as the first list presented. I've just swapped one Factory for a Monastery. A 4/4 finishes the game faster than a 2/2 - plain and simple. The only difference is in the activation cost, which is why there is only one Monastery - it has requirements that need to be in place before I want it at the party. And Portal replaces the 3rd Wasteland. Once you have Portal in the graveyard (either from a Smokestack or Mox or Armageddon), your mana is fixed (until they remove it which would be a waste of time for most decks)! Being able to tap Monastery or Wasteland or Windswept or especially a Tomb for white or green is pretty powerful. Horizon Canopy replaces a white source with a 'dual' and a draw ability (meaning it can fix mana, cycle, recur, or trade for a bear - that's a lot of utility from 1 card - oh, and it produces white or green for free with Portal in the grave). I'm willing to listen to suggestions and discussion, which is why I posted - but mindless critique without testing doesn't really contribute anything in my opinion (I'm not trying to 'run' the thread - just directly asking for a little respect).

#4 - Words of Worship is a fun trick against burn. Otherwise, it's much worse than Words of Wilding (or even Words of War if you wanted to bend in that direction). It seems like you might be a little confused on some of the interactions, too. The Words abilities replace the draw (wherever it is from) - so if you activate Words twice, activate Library, you get 2 bears, 4 life whatever, and no cards and lose 0 life (knowledge rocks).

I would suggest testing (or at least learning the interactions). The list I presented is no less consistent than a traditional White Stax build. I didn't suggest the list as the be-all-end-all, it was intended as an idea list. I find it's more helpful to ask questions, than to just provide a condescending critique, but I guess you did admittedly say you "really don't know how to go about building this". Thanks for the input.

Fred Bear...

Skeggi
04-14-2008, 11:44 AM
@ Skeggi - Not trying to be a dick, here, but you could get the last Prison by putting the 60th card in the deck :wink: (the list you posted only has 59 - don't know if you edited that list and lost a card, or something).

You're my hero. Problem solved.

Note to self: learn to count.

ChillerKiller0815
04-16-2008, 09:09 AM
Hi, I am going to make a suggestion on a card that is probably not worth running. But I am curious if anyone ever wasted a thought on that card. If u play a build containing 3-4 Smokestacks wouldn´t it be worth a try running Eater of Days as a killoption? I mean ramping a Smokestack up to 2 then play an Eater of Days leaving you with a realy big ass monster und your oponent with basically nothing sounds nice at least......

.....or u wait until u have 8 mana (anything turn 5-6) and play geddon+eater in one turn....

.....or blow up mana via geddon and recover in and ramp ur mana to 4 until the next turn via Crucible and Trinisphere and play him safe......

....as I said just thoughts that came to my mind.

It is a mid- to lategame beater that finishes really quickly if played under a soft lock (otherwise unplayable). If you have established a hard lock the finisher obviously doesn´t matter, but I find myself often enough confronted with a softlock that needs to be taken advantage of, because the oponent will recover in a couple of turns -> single geddon for example

Fred Bear
04-16-2008, 10:19 AM
ChillerKiller,

Eater isn't so out there. When I tried Eater of Days before, though, I found it to be too much of a 'win-more'-type of card to warrant inclusion. Eater is very, very good in the 'soft-' or 'mini-'lock situations you describe (you really just need to negate whatever removal you expect) and he does provide a 'win-right-now' card when you are in that position (good for triggering the concede - I never actually got to attack with him in my testing, you usually sit through 3 opponent untaps while they 'search' for an answer and then they concede).

Eater is worse than nearly all other options in almost every other situation. Without any lock in place, Eater becomes near unplayable since he turns every Swords and Naturalize into Time Stretch that can be played for 7-9 mana less during your own EOT step (there are, of course, exceptions but in general, this is the case).

So, ultimately, if you have a lock in place that will allow you to miss two turns and begin beating with Eater, you've probably already won (*NEWS FLASH*) which in my opinion drops him into the 'win-more' card category. I'm not a complete believer in the 'win-condition' doesn't matter camp, but I also don't want to play cards that are quite this situational (i.e. if you've shut off their removal, there are any number of creatures that don't cost you two turns that will probably still win the game for you - Exalted Angel comes to mind).

The best spot I found for him is against mono-black (white splash is not anywhere close to that good since white signals Swords and more devastatingly Vindicate). Eater avoids most of their common removal and can potentially be played early enough to avoid their discard (especially since they will focus on other troublesome cards with their discard - Trinisphere, Chalice, etc.). Combining these benefits with their already slow clock and two turns won't do anything to you that a flying, trampling 9/8 can't take care of.

Fred Bear...

Dark_Cynic87
04-16-2008, 01:11 PM
Hey man, I don't mind criticism, really, but at least take the time to make an informed post and most importantly ask questions if you don't understand something...


As a long-time pilot of Sun Tower (since before it went UGr, and even before AEther Flash was utilized), not to mention AngelStax (which is entirely inferior to either version of Sun Tower), I think I'm more than informed...



#1 - Words of Wilding does not 'require' mana each turn. It's an activated ability. It gives you a bear for :1: every turn after it's in play, which is pretty efficient on it's own. This is really what 'replaces' the additional Factories and Magus to a degree (obviously without the Tabernacle effect). Had you actually tested the deck (or at least asked more questions or even read some of the posts emidln has made in the past), you would see that Words + Sylvan Library = nice little combo churning out an army for :3: to end games very quickly. It also allows you to produce tokens (even under a Tabernacle effect) that sacrifice to Smokestack, effectively allowing you to ramp without consequence to numbers >2 (remember Tabernacle effect = Upkeep, Words = 'usually' Draw step). So the dissynergy that you 'hint' at isn't really there. You can successfully 'geddon, next turn draw, and play as normal (sometimes with a Smokestack at 2) - all with both Library and Words in play.


Clearly you don't HAVE to pay for WoW, but it does NOT replace Factories. Factory is a 4-of because of it's versatility in the early game to block Mongeese, early beats, and etc. And the "dissynergy" I "hint" (read: scream)at is in fact very much in play. You aren't keeping in mind that you run only 3 Libraries, and only 2x Words, in addition to 1x Cantrip=randomness.

Tabernacle effect = Upkeep = you not having mana to pump out bears during draw step...



#2 - I have found that for the most part, tutors suck in Stax. I don't run
them because it is very seldom that I 'need' a particular card (if you evaluate your testing data fairly, you will find that a 'silver bullet' may be desired at a certain point, but it is not 'necessary' to win - it just speeds up the win which is a very different evaluation).


Intuition much? It's not that tutors suck in stax, it's that redundancy often makes their usefulness minimal. However, you lack said redundancy. I know you think that your card choices make up for your lack thereof, but you unfortunately would be mistaken.



Look at what non-land changes I made in the list presented compared to the 'traditional' list I posted - -1x Magus, -1x Trinisphere, -1x Smokestack, -1x Oblivion Ring, -1x Land is traded for 3x Sylvan Library, and 2x Words of Wilding. If you are not drawing the Library or Words, you are drawing the traditional Stax elements! And look at what Library does... it helps you dig for solutions (granted it's not Top + Fetchland efficient), but choosing 1 of 3 is better than any random card off the top and you can pay 4 life to dig even deeper. This DOES help with consistency and it allows for playing things as slightly less than 4-ofs since you are 'seeing' more cards. You don't 'need' Library or Words to win, they are simply added to tool box and can help you when they are found (Words is a win condition, but can act as a lock piece with Smokestack or just by providing infinite blockers). *Key point - It does not matter how much life you lose if you win the game.*


So you dropped a lock piece (Smokestack, when you SHOULD have dropped a Crucible as WoW fills it's slot as number 4 and 5), a double-Time Walk/Hymn to Tourach/Combo-hose (reference to 3sphere), went down to 2x targetted removal spells when most people complaining of not being able to fit in a 4th (I understand that you can ramp stax, but you dropped one, which gives you 1 per 20 cards, Library and recurring shuffle effects notwithstanding). The only reasonable sacrifice to put the combo in your list is Magus, but you maintain 5 'Geddon effects, which made the drop of the Magus all but moot, if not random.



#3 - The mana base is admittedly ugly (read my post). But in some places, I've enhanced the 'redundancy' with utility. I play just as many man-lands as the first list presented. I've just swapped one Factory for a Monastery. A 4/4 finishes the game faster than a 2/2 - plain and simple. The only difference is in the activation cost, which is why there is only one Monastery - it has requirements that need to be in place before I want it at the party. And Portal replaces the 3rd Wasteland. Once you have Portal in the graveyard (either from a Smokestack or Mox or Armageddon), your mana is fixed (until they remove it which would be a waste of time for most decks)! Being able to tap Monastery or Wasteland or Windswept or especially a Tomb for white or green is pretty powerful. Horizon Canopy replaces a white source with a 'dual' and a draw ability (meaning it can fix mana, cycle, recur, or trade for a bear - that's a lot of utility from 1 card - oh, and it produces white or green for free with Portal in the grave). I'm willing to listen to suggestions and discussion, which is why I posted - but mindless critique without testing doesn't really contribute anything in my opinion (I'm not trying to 'run' the thread - just directly asking for a little respect).


Every good stax player knows that redundancy > utility. The only one-ofs played in Sun Tower are LftL, EE, and Academy Ruins (and then SB T. Crypts, but those are often run in 3's, as turn 1 Intuition into a Crypt *can* be gg for Ichorid, and I hear recurring Crypts are bad news against Loam and all other gy dependent decks such as goyfs and etc.), which are tutored for by Intuition (note the inevitability of the card choices). I will ignore your manabase, as you are aware of it's utter disrepair, but I will mention that there is a WORLD of difference between Monestary and Factory. I think you are forgetting that it requires THRESHOLD to be a creature. If you hit WoW as often as you say you are, you are NOT getting Threshold. If you are, you are doing so at the expense of either your lock or your manabase, or you happen to be losing...And it's a completely dead (read: Mox-Fodder) early game/opening hand. I can't imagine a time when you draw it and say, "I'm glad this is a Monestary instead of a Factory." The fact that it takes out a Mongoose is of incredibly little significance, as it'll be capable of swinging for way before you ever get Threshold. 2x Factories means same amount of damage to player with the need of twice as many blockers, and no colored mana or anything in your yard. I've rambled on, but the main point is that stax builds are about inevitability, not cheap trix and lands that swing for 4...how's that for redundancy?



#4 - Words of Worship is a fun trick against burn. Otherwise, it's much worse than Words of Wilding (or even Words of War if you wanted to bend in that direction).


No, it's good against burn (not that burn's any problem in the first place..). Good is quite different than trick. A recurring wasteland is good enough for you to squeeze a scoop out of someone, but a Stax lock gaining 10+ life a turn isn't? Against decks that run 8-12 creatures (that have to pay for Prison, just to get chumped by a Facto--wait, you dropped half of them...), and easily gaining upwards of 10 life a turn is in fact a concession, not to mention life-gain is one of the two reasons Exalted Angel is considered by players of Angelstax. Btw, dropping a couple Factories would have been a smaller mistake if you had turned Prisons into Bridges (after all, you control how many cards you draw...)



It seems like you might be a little confused on some of the interactions, too. The Words abilities replace the draw (wherever it is from) - so if you activate Words twice, activate Library, you get 2 bears, 4 life whatever, and no cards and lose 0 life (knowledge rocks).


I suppose that's what you get for thinking...



I would suggest testing (or at least learning the interactions). The list I presented is no less consistent than a traditional White Stax build. I didn't suggest the list as the be-all-end-all, it was intended as an idea list. I find it's more helpful to ask questions, than to just provide a condescending critique, but I guess you did admittedly say you "really don't know how to go about building this". Thanks for the input.

Fred Bear...

Here you go, for the record: The fact of the matter is that if you want to take this in a words direction, I suggest taking a Sun Tower skeleton and work your way from there. WGu would be the obvious colors. This is the official way you should take this.

I can understand how you took my criticism, and you did so accurately. I apologize for the rudeness, but not for the criticism. Maybe (since you referenced him) Emidln will swing by and have a say in the matter, but I daresay he's a bit preoccupied with storm combo atm. For that matter, I only post on here for the development of the deck (an idea I have heavily propogated in prior lists, and has been a long time coming). The fact is I switched to sun tower, got rid of my Ravages and never looked back from Sun Tower and FT. I come here for nostalgia...

How about this list:

Lands--25
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
3x Tropical Island
2x Savannah
1x Forest/Trop
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
2x Windswept Heath
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Academy Ruins

Possibly drop the Forest for Tropical if you don't see a lot of Moon Effects. There is absolutely NO reason to run Flagstones. Shuffle effects are what's key to playing Libraries as it gets you a new spread every turn for the cost of your land-drop and a life (as I remember, life doesn't matter, right?), and you can do it every turn (you don't have to grab a land. Convenient, no? Guess I may know a few interactions, eh?)

Spells--35
4x Smokestack
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
4x Sylvan Library
3x Words of Worship//Words of Wilding
3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Intuition
1x Life from the Loam
1x Engineered Explosives

Everything here should be extremely self-explanatory. Feel free if you feel like it to run a Test of Endurance, lol. Clearly this is a jest, and not to be taken seriously. It seems like you have to run disclaimers on this thread anymore...

A sideboard could consist of several things ranging but not limited to:
Krosan Grip
Pithing Needle
Wrath of God
Oblivion Ring
Tormod's Crypt
Engineered Explosives

and plenty other options...And you don't HAVE to run them in the sets, but rather 3's as Intuition can act as slots 4-5-6 for everything. Utility that equals redundancy = hawt tecH.

There ya go. This is almost card-for-card Sun Tower in white instead of red, maintaining the 2 main colors of U and G. I'm certain you will find it more entertaining and powerful than the mess we've been discussing.

Pce,

--DC

emidln
04-16-2008, 01:35 PM
Tabernacle effect = Upkeep = you not having mana to pump out bears during draw step...

Heh, looks like you haven't been playing stax long enough. ;) The key here is knowing that Tabernacle gives the creatures themselves an extra triggered ability and that the creature's controller gets to stack it as they wish. This brings your upkeep/draw order with a Smokestack, Tabernacle, Words of Wilding, and Sylvan Library in play on your side to something like this:

At the beginning of your upkeep, the following is placed on the stack:

//TOP OF STACK
Smokestack sac permanents trigger
Individual Tabernacle Triggers
Smokestack add a counter trigger
//BOTTOM OF STACK

Before you move to the draw step, you need to activate Words of Wilding at least once so that your draw per turn is replaced with making a bear. You can choose to pay an additional 2 here or you can wait until the Sylvan Library trigger is on the stack on your draw to pay 2 if you wish to get 2 additional bears.

Dark_Cynic87
04-16-2008, 04:25 PM
I was going to argue this, but I quickly realized that if you had any wits about you that remotely competed with a child's, you'd convert your strategy from board position to win condition, letting Magus kill itself in the upkeep after you play the Words, leaving you any amount of bears to be made from then on.

The point I argued about bears and their production henceforth was the correlation between magus, said bears, and amount of mana you could generate, which would clearly dictate the number of tokens you were "allowing" yourself to maintain; clearly though, this is an invalid point as any slightly informed player would simply do as I previously stated in this post....

as to knowledge and my suggested lacking in the area:
I understand how the stack and the upkeep "triggers" should stack and are manipulated to the player's best interested, I don't know how this is even in question. I am not in any way, shape or form an unknowledgeable stax pilot; I have posted (and believe to be the most recent advocate of) Intuition and Academy Ruins prior to it's addition to any stax list on here since my arrival to these boards; not that I'm trying to take credit where credit's not due, I just believe it to be a truth.

Curious as to what peeps think of the list. It's not like it's new or anything, simply a swapped-out color. Didn't take Finkel to piece it together, but it's clearly more stable and synergistic than the first list Fred Bear posted. And yes, I would say that this actually belongs in the Sun Tower thread, but you guys brought up the Words/Library approach. I've mostly just pushed a pro: blue agenda for the Intuition/Ruins and the comparable counterparts to G. Prison and Magus. I may have mentioned ST and it's compact combo win-con, but never aggressively pursued it.

Good grief, I'm a wordy sob...

Pce,

--DC

emidln
04-16-2008, 04:57 PM
I was going to argue this, but I quickly realized that if you had any wits about you that remotely competed with a child's, you'd convert your strategy from board position to win condition, letting Magus kill itself in the upkeep after you play the Words, leaving you any amount of bears to be made from then on.

This really isn't necessary. The difference between taking three turns and two turns when an opponent has no permanents on the board and won't keep any for more than a turn is neglible. (On a tangent, that's why it's possible to win with just a Barbarian Ring, a Mishra's Factory, a Tarpan, or a Shivan Dragon all the same in Stax.) In fact, there's little difference between taking two turns and thirty turns, especially if there is some sort of sphere effect out. The only plausible scenarios involve either a board control deck (Loam or Sun Tower) or a storm deck. A board control deck with Mox Diamond, two lands, and clasm or ee in hand (theoretically, ST can do it with mox diamond, two lands, and welder if EE is in the yard (responding to the stax trigger on their next turn by welding EE and blowing it up)) being able to destroy your tokens and maybe make you sac some stuff you don't want to. Given the game state described, even this doesn't sound all that bad unless you manage to lose your board so that you can't make more bears. A combo deck could play out ETW assuming no sphere effect. It's unlikely they generate enough storm to overwhelm your bear tokens, but an active Tabernacle effect would prevent this.

Fred Bear
04-16-2008, 05:55 PM
DC,

Man, you crack me up...

(1) As emidln pointed out, the dissynergy between Magus + Words of Wilding only exists if you let it. Armageddon is only ever a problem if you make bad plays. I assume that for a decent player with experience with the deck, neither scenario would be a factor.

(2) As far as Factory goes... I have never played Factory as a 4-of and I probably won't ever play Factory as a 4-of. I understand what you believe it does, but I can only attribute it to pure games played in the White Stax shell. Call it personal preference or whatever you like, but in my testing, I've never wanted a second one until I'm winning already and at that point - just like emidln and others have said, it really doesn't matter if you have 1 or 2 or 6.

(3) I am against Intuition in White Stax. I've never tested it in the current form of Sun Tower, but this isn't really the place for that. I have tried it in White Stax and in various White/Blue Hybrids and in several versions of Blue Stax and I have been entirely underwhelmed every single time. The reason: It has zero-to-negative effect on bad match-ups like Landstill and makes the deck more vulnerable in common match-ups that are already ok like Threshold. You can always come up with scenarios where it is good-to-awesome, but I have not found those situations to be more common then the ones where it is sub-par to any other Stax piece.


So you dropped a lock piece (Smokestack, when you SHOULD have dropped a Crucible as WoW fills it's slot as number 4 and 5), a double-Time Walk/Hymn to Tourach/Combo-hose (reference to 3sphere), went down to 2x targetted removal spells when most people complaining of not being able to fit in a 4th (I understand that you can ramp stax, but you dropped one, which gives you 1 per 20 cards, Library and recurring shuffle effects notwithstanding). The only reasonable sacrifice to put the combo in your list is Magus, but you maintain 5 'Geddon effects, which made the drop of the Magus all but moot, if not random.
(4) I'm gonna have to bust your chops a little here, man... If you've played 'Geddon Stax at all, you'll know that anything less that 4 Crucibles is likely too few. Being able to consistently recur lands is obviously what breaks the symmetry of Armageddon. You are also nearly always faster to recover from an Armageddon than your opponent. This is what I think pushed everyone in the thread to the list in the first place, Armageddon is a format wrecking ball. I dropped the Trinispheres by one because, honestly, it's, again, not the piece that wins the game. I'm not arguing that it's right - it might not be, but I could see you being a little more on edge if I suggested dropping the Chalices to 3. Also, the number of cards you see in an average game with Library and even two fetches is >> than straight White Stax which really does translate into finding more cards sooner.

(5) The only place where I have ever missed the additional targetted removal is against Pernicious Deed or similar cards (which is why Needle is a sideboard mainstay) which sucks, but it's no worse than usual really and post-board I find Needles more often. I actually began using the Rings more to slow 'Goyf beats, though, and I don't miss one as much with this list just because I tend to see more actual lock pieces and win by that route a lot faster and more consistently.

(6) You are right - redundancy > utility. Unless you can do both. You have to remember that sometimes (especially with Lands), you have the ability to do both. I need a White and Green mana source - what's better - Brushland, Temple Garden, Savannah, or Horizon Canopy? If the life loss is a minimal concern, Horizon Canopy offers the most utility even if Savannah is the right answer most of the time (it's why Barbarian Ring is better than a Mountain in Sun Tower - Red Source with drawback + Win Condition > Red Source). So with 3 slots for W/G Lands - 2 Savannahs and 1 Horizon Canopy can be correct (again, I'm not arguing that it is, it just hasn't bothered me in testing). Monastery isn't a beater until the mid-to-late game when you have threshold, you're right, in that one way it's worse than Factory. And you will get burned once in a while by it, but it is still a redundant slot - it's a colorless manland. It offers a bigger body for a slightly bigger drawback which is utility. (Also, just for the record - another interaction you missed - you can shuffle every turn without life loss with Smokestack >1, Crucible, Flagstones - you don't need to find a land with it either)

(7) Lifegain is largely a waste of time. There I said it. I stand behind it. Exalted Angel is a phenomenal creature and I don't mean to minimize her abilities, but, honestly, she's playable for what she does without the Lifelink (a 4/5 flyer on turn 3 is playable - I don't care who you are). If you want to play with Words of Wisdom, you're wasting time. You'll get the concession, but you better win all your game ones - because people will sit and let you gain a million life in game two (and lose the match 0-1). That's why I said - 'It's a neat trick' - Words of Wilding provides a way to win the game left unchecked.

(8) I suggested taking the deck possibly in a Library direction while maintaining the Armageddon shell (I posted the list to spark discussion - not to thump my chest). The Words enchantments are better utility than Uba Mask (it was sad to see Uba Lock leave today), but Hoofprints of the Stag might be just as playable, which is why I've been toying with it. Sun Tower is a different deck. It plays entirely differently (I have played it before). emidln (probably the most accomplished Sun Tower player on these boards I think), I'm almost sure, would agree that while the Stax goals of the two decks are similar - the way they are played is most definitely not. White or Armageddon Stax is a resource starvation prison deck. Ensnaring Bridge for Ghostly Prison is not a reasonable swap because Prison allows me to attack while taxing my opponent for the opportunity - it's not symmetric, especially in multiples. Armageddon amplifies these types of non-symmetries while punishing most decks in the format for playing so land-light (and fetch-heavy) - this is what makes this deck playable.

(9) Your list is Sun Tower. You dropped Barbarian Rings, de-stabilized the mana base to add white, and suggested possibly using Words of Wisdom and some white sideboard cards (instead of sticking with red like emidln did when he posted the list in the Sun Tower thread). I'm curious what benefit you would really see for splashing white into Sun Tower - red just seems much, much better in that deck?

I really wasn't looking to get into a forum argument about this deck, especially with someone who clearly hasn't tried it. The deck's not perfect, I'm not the greatest deck designer in the world, and I have no tournament results to back it up. I just have a bunch of games that I've played it against testing partners on MWS and around the kitchen table. It works pretty well. I understand that you have experience with Sun Tower, but Armageddon Stax is very, very different - and I think that's ok. There doesn't necessarily need to be one Stax deck to rule them all.

Fred Bear...

Gambit
04-18-2008, 01:29 PM
Possible Card in:

Crackdown 2W
Original Printing
Card Type: Enchantment
Card Text: Nonwhite creatures with power 3 or greater don't untap during their controllers' untap steps.

Are there enough creatures besides goyf that have 3 or more power to make this useful?

Also, how do you beat 4color landstill? Deeds + Crucibles + no-creatures that are taxed seems to hurt a lot game 1.

Post-board I bring in suppression fields and needles which seem to help some, but this matchup doesn't seem very good.

Zach Tartell
04-18-2008, 02:12 PM
Possible Card in:

Crackdown 2W
Original Printing
Card Type: Enchantment
Card Text: Nonwhite creatures with power 3 or greater don't untap during their controllers' untap steps.

Are there enough creatures besides goyf that have 3 or more power to make this useful?

Also, how do you beat 4color landstill? Deeds + Crucibles + no-creatures that are taxed seems to hurt a lot game 1.

Post-board I bring in suppression fields and needles which seem to help some, but this matchup doesn't seem very good.

Seems to me Meekstone would be just as good, no? Also, why not just o-ring said creature (Or wrath, or tax his ass, or propaganda him to oblivion)(with oblivion ring? oh God, I'm like a poet).

As for landstill I reckon that needles would help a bunch, as well as quick smokestack related savagery.

Edit: Before, of course, they land a crucible

Gambit
04-18-2008, 02:19 PM
About Meekstone, this deck doesn't like 1-drops (yes, I know I said needle out of the board). And crackdown doesn't affect your creatures at all, well your 1 creature being Angel...hmmm. Anyway, getting to 3 mana isn't hard, and I'm trying to brainstorm some new tech. O-ring is fine for the first critter, but Stax isn't about 1 for 1's; each card needs to be a 2 for 1 or better. In some situations this is.

Nihil Credo
04-18-2008, 02:41 PM
As for landstill I reckon that needles would help a bunch, as well as quick smokestack related savagery.
Suppression Field (in addition to Defense Grid) is probably your best card against Landstill. Not as consistent as Needle, but it fits better in your overall strategy.

The Meekstone variant seems decent, but there's no way it gets into my list as long as Exalted Angel keeps being that awesome.

Gambit
04-18-2008, 02:43 PM
The Meekstone variant seems decent, but there's no way it gets into my list as long as Exalted Angel keeps being that awesome.

Crackdown is Non-white creatures.

Yea, I probably should get some defense grids for my SB. Can people post some SB's for comparison?

Here's mine at the moment:
3-Needle
4-Crypt
2-Oblivion Ring
3-Powder Keg
3-Suppression field

Nihil Credo
04-18-2008, 03:05 PM
Crackdown is Non-white creatures.

Oops. Then it's got a chance. The main strike against it is that it does not synergize with any of your lock pieces; however, unlike Oblivion Ring (which shares the same flaw), it does not get nullified by your opponent simply dropping a second copy of the same card.

On a second thought, it has good synergy with Tangle Wire. That card doesn't belong in the current Angel/Armageddon builds, but maybe a new approach could emerge that makes use of both Wire and Crackdown. I'll have to fiddle a bit more with it.


Yea, I probably should get some defense grids for my SB. Can people post some SB's for comparison?

Here's mine at the moment:
3-Needle
4-Crypt
2-Oblivion Ring
3-Powder Keg
3-Suppression field

Mine is:

4 Oblivion Ring -> not going anywhere
3-4 Defense Grid -> ditto
3-4 Suppression Field -> ditto
Up to 3 extra taxing effects (Tabernacle, Windborn Muse)
Up to 1 'disenchant' effect (sometimes I want Ring #5)

The rest is up for debate. Graveyard hate (both Grunt and Crypt) has been fairly useless for me - it seems to be better to stop Ichorid and Loam in different ways (Prisons, Trinisphere, and Angel for the former; Field, Ring, and Chalice@2 for the latter). I've got Powder Kegs in the list right now, but I'm not testing the deck much of late.

Skeggi
04-19-2008, 10:24 AM
My current SB, testing version is :

2 Sphere of Law
3 Suppression Field
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Defense Grid
2 Rule of Law
3 Aura of Silence
2 Sphere of Resistance

I'm considering changing it to something like this:

3 Sun-and-Moon Wheel (Shadowmoor card)
3 Defense Grid
3 Suppression Field
3 Rule of Law
3 Aura of Silence

(I run 3 Oblivion Rings MB, Tabernacle out and moving to MB because it's a waste to leave it in SB lol)

Bane of the Living
04-19-2008, 11:04 AM
I think Sun and Moon Wheel will be too slow to be effective hate. Go with Tormod's Crypt. Double white is ugly, I don't even play double white costs in my build.

Silverdragon
04-19-2008, 11:24 AM
My most common used sideboard is
4 Defense Grid
4 Suppression Field
3 Duskrider Peregrine
2 Wasteland
2 [whatever I feel like]

The 2 Wastelands are there to go up to 4 Wastelands after board against decks where they are good (read anything where some MD cards can be boarded out :wink:) but most often I use them to up my land count to 26/27 against matchups where I'm likely to Geddon multiple times.
The 2 open slots are currently 1 Tabernacle and 1 Pithing Needle although Powder Keg, Seal of Cleansing or Oblivion Ring are good choices too. Maindeck I play 3 Magus and 2-3 Oblivion Ring most of the time so if I didn't have a Tabernacle I could also see me playing the 4th Magus in the board.

P.S.: Concerning Graveyard hate: Don't! It usually is a waste of space. Against Threshold by boarding in GY hate you have to board out other useful cards like Prison or Magus thus weakening your primary plan of taxing their already weak mana. Against Ichorid unless they have a really good draw a single Prison plus Trinisphere should shut them down even after boarding. Against Loam it might be worth it however your primary plan against them is to set up a devastating Armageddon and again you are weakening your chance of surviving until then if you board out creature control for GY hate.
Specifically about that Wheel of Sun and Moon I think Bane is right. WW is ugly especially when you need it really fast to matter. I won't play it.

Tacosnape
04-19-2008, 01:19 PM
What's the general consensus of boarding plans for Duskrider Peregrine? When do you board him in, for what, and why?

Silverdragon
04-19-2008, 05:22 PM
The obvious plan is to board it in against anything black (black/white is very common around here) and board out Trinispheres. Peregrine is also not bad against any deck packing Pernicious Deed because it has a cc of 6. Against most decks with Deed you can board out Ghostly Prisons and a combination of Chalices and Trinispheres so it is not hard to find a space for the Peregrines after boarding.
As for an explanation, against Sui-style decks Peregrine simply trumps most of their creatures and can hold the fort against a Tombstalker easily. The only common removal that can hit it is Swords but you can at least use Chalice to protect him for some time.
Against 4c Landstill, Peregrine helps you put up a bit more pressure (3 damage a turn is nothing to sneeze at especially because it flies over their manlands).
Against any other deck with Deed (Rock-style decks) you can again put up some pressure and defend against Doran.
Generally you often use Peregrine against decks that have a lategame strategy that trumps yours or simply as an additional defense line.

On another note, I couldn't get much testing with Karmic Justice yet but I think they are stronger against most current builds of Black/X Sui and most Deed decks so expect me to change the Peregrines for Karmic Justice sometime in the future.

edit: What do you guys think about Uba Mask in the sideboard against Landstill and maybe Survival? It is also useful against combodecks but most likely win-more against them.

Nihil Credo
04-19-2008, 06:09 PM
I used to like Peregrine, but its usefulness has sharply declined since the Tarmogoyf splash became so common in Vindicate decks.

kkoie
04-21-2008, 12:05 AM
This is the sideboard that I have been trying out to decent affect:

4 Oblivion Ring
3 Suppresion Field
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Aura of Silence
2 Guardian of the Guildpact

Gambit
04-22-2008, 12:53 PM
Bare with me for a minute; this may be terrible and I haven't done any testing yet. But a stax shell with a combo win may be good.
This combines the broken openings of stax with the painters grindstone combo. I pulled the chalices as they are quite dis-synergistic with the e-tutors and grindstones. This also, allows e-tutors which can in fact find you important lock pieces. The obvious problem being painter and grindstone being bad on there own. Thoughts?

4 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon
3 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
8 Plains

Willoe
04-22-2008, 01:52 PM
Not being an Angel Stax guy, but being a lover of that Grindstone + Painter's Servant combo, I feel almost forced to reply :D

Anyway, here goes:

The card that kills me almost every game is Chalice of the Void which is in my opinion the most versatile card in the deck. It can lock almost any deck if counters are set correct. If I were you, I wouldn't cut it. Additionally, I think that only the Angel should be run as a kill condition. Since the deck basically runs in top deck mode, you can't afford to run six cards that are virtually dead without their other part. Although the combo wins instantly, it's win more in my opinion. I think that your average matchup percentages would be slightly worse with that combo in your deck.

So in short, don't run the combo. If you do, then don't cut the chalices. I can however understand your argument for E-Tutor.

Am I just a random guy that has nothing clever to say about a deck I'm not playing, or am I actually right? :P

Anyway, nice try on finding a build for that goddamn combo :)

Skeggi
04-22-2008, 05:00 PM
I think you should build a deck around that combo, or try and fit it somewhere else. I don't think it's synergic enough with GeddonStax. I might try it, just to see whether I'm not wrong on this, because if I am, it'll be very powerful.

Skeggi
05-06-2008, 05:22 PM
It's been a long time since the Stax thread had an update, so here goes, this is my new MB list:

Lands:
7 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trolkair
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
---+
24

Arties
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
---+
19

Stuff:
4 Armageddon
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Exalted Angel
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Ghostly Prison
---+
17

Total 60, unless I miscounted again :wink:

There are a couple of things going on: I'm not sure if I want to run the rings MB, actually, I'm pretty sure I don't. Instead of the 3 rings I'd rather have 2 Ravages of War (which I don't have) and perhaps a 4th stack or a third Angel.

I'm also considering dropping a Mishra's Factory (I feel the fourth one is win more) for either a Wasteland or perhaps I'll bring back in the old Kor Haven (not for 'Goyf per se, it also slows down Dragon Stompy).

Fred Bear had made a nice start about perhaps splashing in another colour. This is something I might use my Ring spots for: perhaps take a plains out, put in a Scrubland, and replacing the rings with Extirpate (someone in my neighbourhood is crazy about Extirpate). Unfortunately Extirpate is a 1 mana card and doesn't do well with Chalice @ 1...so what else could fill the spot? Any ideas?

On another note, now Shadowmoor is fully out, has anyone tested Wheel of Sun and Moon? Or any other cards that might come in handy?

Pringlesman
05-06-2008, 07:47 PM
I was hoping to get some help on my list, I took it to a small tourney a couple weeks ago and went un-defeted throught swiss where I loss in the semi finals because of a stupid play mistake (should have played my challice at 3 appose to 1 to stop his next turn deed). As a result of this deck, I found out I am a prison player at heart, something I knew deep down from playing Zur's Weirding. (intution for 3x Firemane Angel, FTW!)

Anywho, this is my list.

Lands 24
6 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Flagstone of Trokair
3 Mishra's Factory
1 God's Eye Gate to the Riekie

Artifact 19
4 Mox Diamond
4 Trinisphere
4 Challice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestax

White 17
4 Armageddon
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Exalted Angel

Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle (for deed)
4 Circle of Protection: Red
4 Seal of Cleansing
1 Ghostly Prison
2 ?

I originally ran my 4th O-ring, 4th Stax in my side (and played 1 enlightened main), but enlightened was less than steller, and sinceI always found myself boarding in my 4th O-ring, I just main decked it.

Bane of the Living
05-06-2008, 10:03 PM
On another note, now Shadowmoor is fully out, has anyone tested Wheel of Sun and Moon? Or any other cards that might come in handy?

Runed Halo seems like a great answer to single card strategy like goyf and dreadnought.

Skeggi
05-07-2008, 02:52 PM
Runed Halo seems like a great answer to single card strategy like goyf and dreadnought.

You're very right. Although I'm not too worried about Goyfs or Dreadnoughts, any deck playing those are pretty good match-ups. So is there any new tech concerning the harder match-ups like Landstill?

Edit: Pringlesman, I'm not sure about your meta, but I have found I want 6(!) 'geddon effects, so if you can get your hands on Ravages of War, you should do it. In my meta, with all the solidarity, TES, Fetchland Tendrils and whatnot, I have to play Rule of Law in SB.

Pringlesman
05-07-2008, 04:12 PM
You're very right. Although I'm not too worried about Goyfs or Dreadnoughts, any deck playing those are pretty good match-ups. So is there any new tech concerning the harder match-ups like Landstill?

Edit: Pringlesman, I'm not sure about your meta, but I have found I want 6(!) 'geddon effects, so if you can get your hands on Ravages of War, you should do it. In my meta, with all the solidarity, TES, Fetchland Tendrils and whatnot, I have to play Rule of Law in SB.

I agree with you on the wanting on 5+ geddon effects, I just can't justify spending 50-60+ on a geddon varient when I still have duals, mox diamonds (I'm still borrowing them), and other random good cards in the format to buy.

Lammina
05-08-2008, 01:55 AM
Hi all!

Guys, a question: what the White Stax have (in main deck) against the Dredge deck? And the options for the side?

Thx,

Lammina

Curby
05-08-2008, 02:53 AM
With Dredge's shaky mana supply, any Ghostly Prison-style effect should be golden. Combined with this is their heavy use of nonbasics, which recurring wastelands can destroy handily. You may be able to turn a Factory into a Worker, then sac it to Smokestack or kill it with Wasteland, thus removing Bridges.

Nihil Credo
05-08-2008, 06:27 AM
Guys, a question: what the White Stax have (in main deck) against the Dredge deck? And the options for the side?

Almost everything. Let's take a look:

Crucible, Angel: Not good per se, but they're respectively the glue that holds the deck together and the stabilizer in the face of an initial rush. Angel could be sided out, but as they don't run removal and it can comfortably race 7-8 power of creatures (depending on your life total), and you have better stuff to take out anyway (Stax and/or Ring), it usually isn't.

Armageddons: Generally great, turning soft locks into hard locks. Don't get greedy - use them as Stone Rains if needed. Exploit their 12-land count.

Wasteland: Wuv. 50%-100% of Armageddon's returns with a far smaller cost.

Chalice: At 1 it shuts down Imp, Therapy (though they still get to sac), G2 Chain of Vapor, and Careful Study/Gamble/Brainstorm if run. Breakthrough also needs to be for 1 or more. So it can be decent, if far from spectacular. However, G2 it's critical because at 2 it turns off Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation, pretty much hard-locking them.

Trinisphere: Ouch. Enjoy your 12 lands... and pray I don't draw a Wasteland or Armageddon. Of course, it gets far weaker past turn 1, though still good.

Ghostly Prison: Same as Trinisphere, except that attacking is more vital for Ichorid than casting spells. Usually it's either Ray of Revelation or GG, especially if you draw multiples.

Magus: This is your insurance for the long game: unless they pull off something like 3x Ichorid + Moebas into DR into FKZ/Akroma (and you don't have a Trini), it shuts off Zombie Tokens and DR plans. Of course, it also blocks Ichorid all day long.

Oblivion Rings: I don't run them MD, but if you do, they're probably your worst card for the MU. They do work as insurance against reanimated fatties, though.

Smokestack: Awesome if they don't have Zombie tokens; terrible if they do. I usually side these out for Powder Kegs or Engineered Explosives.

Lammina
05-08-2008, 03:41 PM
Hi all!

Thanks for the answers! I got it!


I have a test-list of ArmaStax, lets see:

4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland
3x Flagstones of Trokair
5x Plains
3x Mishra Factory
1x Nomad Stadium

3x Magus of the Tabernacle
2x Winborn Muse
1x Silent Arbiter
1x Exalted Angel

4x Ghostly Prison
4x Smokestack
3x Crucible
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
4x Armageddon

SB
3x Hanna's Custody
3x Suppression Field
2x Porphyry Nodes
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Powder Keg

What you think? Any ideas?
I thinking some changes, like:

-1 Nomad Stadium
+1 Horizon Canopy

-2 Muse
-1 Silent arbiter
+3 Oblivion ring

Im right in my idea, or not?


Thx for now,

Lammina

Sanguine Voyeur
05-08-2008, 03:45 PM
How useful are the Hanna's Custodies? Karmic Justice won't protect you permanents as well, but it does provide card advantage that compliments the mana denial aspect while being useful against sweepers.

Nihil Credo
05-08-2008, 04:05 PM
3x Flagstones of Trokair

I would run a playset anyway, but especially with 4 Smokestacks I'm betting it's worth it to run 4 of them.


1x Nomad Stadium
2x Windborn MuseThey're OK if there's lots of burn/aggro in your area. Nomad is questionable since it's not very easy for you to gain Threshold. I have never tested the card, so you should do it and check if getting 7 cards in your graveyard is a problem.


1x Silent ArbiterUgh, this is terrible since it has zero synergy with the rest of your taxing effects (Prison and Windborn Muse). Don't play it, a second Angel is better.

Note that if you increase the number of Angels, you also need more white mana sources


3x CrucibleFUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK NO NO FUCK FUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK FUCK FUCKFUCKFIASIDOAFJLAKGSASF.

Crucible is the heart and soul of this deck. It makes City of Traitors not suck, it turns Armageddons from emergency buttons to "I win" buttons, it turns Mox Diamond from decent to completely broken, it doubles the power of an active Smokestack. I would run six if I could. When I play Meddling Mage against White Stax, I always name Crucible if there isn't one in play yet.

Play four or go home. The fact that a second copy is only Smokestack fodder is basically irrelevant when compared to the importance of seeing and sticking one early.


SBThere are a few suboptimal choices (Hanna's Custody; Porphyry Nodes in a deck with Magus and Windborn Muse), but first and foremost you need to run Defense Grid: it makes your Landstill matchup so much better, since you have few actually threatening spells (Crucible, Armageddon, Smokestack), and it helps Threshold as well.

Hope that helped. Last note: can you tell us a bit about your meta? We can then tell you whether your choices are reasonable. From the list you've posted, I suspect you see quite a bit of aggro, am I right?

Skeggi
05-08-2008, 04:33 PM
4x City of Traitors => this could be 3
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland => this could be 3
3x Flagstones of Trokair
5x Plains => I run 6 at least, 7 pref.
3x Mishra Factory => this could be 4
1x Nomad Stadium => lol?

3x Magus of the Tabernacle => I like 4 Tab effects, so I run a Tabernacle too
2x Winborn Muse => these die, I wouldn't do it.
1x Silent Arbiter => lol?
1x Exalted Angel => this could be 2 or 3.

4x Ghostly Prison
4x Smokestack => this could be 3.
3x Crucible => as Nihil pointed out: you need 4.
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
4x Armageddon => this could be 5 or 6 with Ravages of War.

SB
3x Hanna's Custody => I don't run this...but perhaps I should...are they any good?
3x Suppression Field
2x Porphyry Nodes => I think I'd prefer something like Rule of Law in this slot. I'm not too worried about creatures.
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Powder Keg

For comparisson, my SB currently is (note that I run 3 Oblivion Rings MB):

2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Rule of Law
3 Aura of Silence (going to cut down on this one probably)
4 Suppression Field
2 Defense Grid

As soon as I get my hands on it I'll swap a Suppression Field for a Defense Grid, the 2 Crypts for Wheel and an Aura of Silence for a Rule of Law...probably...but I need to test :-)

Lammina
05-08-2008, 04:36 PM
I would run a playset anyway, but especially with 4 Smokestacks I'm betting it's worth it to run 4 of them.

They're OK if there's lots of burn/aggro in your area. Nomad is questionable since it's not very easy for you to gain Threshold. I have never tested the card, so you should do it and check if getting 7 cards in your graveyard is a problem.

Ugh, this is terrible since it has zero synergy with the rest of your taxing effects (Prison and Windborn Muse). Don't play it, a second Angel is better.

Note that if you increase the number of Angels, you also need more white mana sources

FUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK NO NO FUCK FUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK NO FUCK FUCK FUCKFUCKFIASIDOAFJLAKGSASF.

Crucible is the heart and soul of this deck. It makes City of Traitors not suck, it turns Armageddons from emergency buttons to "I win" buttons, it turns Mox Diamond from decent to completely broken, it doubles the power of an active Smokestack. I would run six if I could. When I play Meddling Mage against White Stax, I always name Crucible if there isn't one in play yet.

Play four or go home. The fact that a second copy is only Smokestack fodder is basically irrelevant when compared to the importance of seeing and sticking one early.

There are a few suboptimal choices (Hanna's Custody; Porphyry Nodes in a deck with Magus and Windborn Muse), but first and foremost you need to run Defense Grid: it makes your Landstill matchup so much better, since you have few actually threatening spells (Crucible, Armageddon, Smokestack), and it helps Threshold as well.

Hope that helped. Last note: can you tell us a bit about your meta? We can then tell you whether your choices are reasonable. From the list you've posted, I suspect you see quite a bit of aggro, am I right?

@ Nihil: Im so glade with the attention! In first place, sorry for any english error, ok?


The meta game here is infested of aggro decks (gobbos, elfes, Threshold, MAGES (!!!), faries, knights...), but in the last champ, one guy with Dredge´s deck was the winner (and my Suicide black with tarmo, in second).

For the next champ, I need prepare my ArmaStax for this meta (heavy aggro, but with some EXTREMELY dangerous-fast decks, like Dredge and Psycatog...)

T4 decks causing headache for legacy ones.... sounds like a joke huh? hehe!

Waiting ideas!

Bye,

Lammina

The Wes
05-09-2008, 11:03 AM
So you are trying to tune your w stax for a meta with a whole lot of fast agro? Well, first off I'm try to lower the number of smokestacks you are running, or even remove them all together. Most likely elves, gobs, mages, faries, and knights are going to be able to get out enough permanents to keep up with you stax counters. I've been working on a w stax list recently tuned for a heavy agro meta.

6 x plains
4 x ancient tomb
4 x city of traitors
4 x wastelands
3 x flagstones
2 x tabernacles
1 x horizon canopy
1 x kor haven

3 x ghostly prison
4 x trinisphere
4 x chalice of the void
4 x armageddon
4 x crucible of the worlds
4 x mox diamond
3 x oblivion ring

3 x magus of the tabernacle
3 x windborn muse
3 x exalted angel

sb
1 x ghostly prison
1 x windborn muse
4 x suppression field
4 x duskrider
4 x avien mindcensor
1 x oblivion ring

So I'm not sold completely yet on the duskrider and mindcensor in the sb. Duskrider has mostly been there tombstalker, and the fact that I've still never seen a deed hit him. Mindcensor has its good points and bad ones. Its great for hours of fun against fetches, survival, combat tricks, and getting threats into play against control. It just seems like I should be running somethign better, but have yet to find someting that fits.

Also, horizon canopy is great as a 1 of, run it if you can. I think I'm still one of the few people on the stax thread that loves muse. I would never run her as my only prison effect, but in combination she's a beast. Her ablity to fly in for damage and still prison them has won me many a game.

Noman Peopled
05-09-2008, 03:05 PM
I've been playing Stax myself, without the Ravages unfortunately, but haven't kept up with the thread. In any case, I was wondering if anybody else tested Mistveil Plains (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/275.html) out of SHA? (Search turned up nothing.)
It was surprising how seldom the cipt clause mattered in preliminary testing - most often I fetched my singleton with Flagstones, ditched it with Diamond, or just plain didn't need the mana right then.
Sometimes it happens that, albeit having a Smokestack lock in place, you draw nothing and are forced to give it up (aggro especially, or decks that can hoard spells for one explosive turn; and whenever you draw too many of your plains). Using Mistveil Plains, provided you have two white permanents and a Crucible in play, you can keep Smokestack with two counters on it forever. At worst, it allows you do dig for another Smokestack/Geddon (if you don't have on-board pressure and can't cast it while activating Mistveil Plains).
I've also recurred Armageddon with it on occasion, though that still necessitates being able (and willing) to blow up Flagstones.

So the upside is quite situational, but busted - possibly to the point of win-more - if it pans out; while the drawback is far from irrelevant but manageable. Or maybe I'm just being lucky to draw Mistveil Plains mostly when it's not crap, or unlucky with my post-lock draws.
Any thoughts?

Nihil Credo
05-09-2008, 03:21 PM
I find it just outright absurd to claim that running out of Plains (which does happen) costs you the win more often than once every ten thousand games, and especially more often than it does having a frickin' nonbasic CIPT land in your deck.

For the record, you can keep Stax@2 forever by simply having Crucible in play and playing every permanent you draw. You'll skip a round or two when you draw an Armageddon or the Angel you use to win the game, in which case you sac one of your other now-overkill lock pieces. And of course, you can just let the Stax go if you draw a second Smokestack or if Angel/Magus is going to kill them before they recover anyway.

emidln
05-09-2008, 03:58 PM
For the record, you can keep Stax@2 forever by simply having Crucible in play and playing every permanent you draw. You'll skip a round or two when you draw an Armageddon or the Angel you use to win the game, in which case you sac one of your other now-overkill lock pieces. And of course, you can just let the Stax go if you draw a second Smokestack or if Angel/Magus is going to kill them before they recover anyway.

This is mostly true. Everything you draw will be a permanent, but you'll sometimes hit lands. This will trip you up since you already want to play the land from your graveyard.

Nihil Credo
05-09-2008, 04:09 PM
You're correct, I forgot to mention them; although that happens a lot less once you're at the point of having run out of Plains.

Noman Peopled
05-09-2008, 04:15 PM
I find it just outright absurd to claim that running out of Plains (which does happen) costs you the win more often than once every ten thousand games
It happens to me, anyway.
Note that I didn't imply "run out of Plains -> loss", I said "draw nothing relevant -> loss". This could be any number of things, including meddlesome opponents.
Also note that I didn't say it's nuts, or even good. I only enquired if anybody had tested it.

For the record, you can keep Stax@2 forever by simply having Crucible in play and playing every permanent you draw.
I'm well aware of that. See above. I could chalk my land, land, land, land, land scoop draws down to bad luck (add to that that I'm not guaranteed even three mana post-lock if my opponent has Wastes or I was force to Geddon regardless of Smokestack), but instead I guess I'll just test it some more. Or I could chalk it up to insufficient playskills and still test it :p

You'll skip a round or two when you draw an Armageddon or the Angel you use to win the game, in which case you sac one of your other now-overkill lock pieces. And of course, you can just let the Stax go if you draw a second Smokestack or if Angel/Magus is going to kill them before they recover anyway.
That's all obviously true, although I'd like to reiterate that in my testing (admittedly limited to twenty games or so), what happened was mostly
- I ditched MPlains to Mox
- I had other lands in hand that I could play first (in this case MPlains is a dead card until later)
- I had other lands in my graveyard to recur (see above, except it usually gives more options)
- I got it with Flagstones.

On the flip side, it's hard to say if it had any positive effect at all, since the games would have gone differently without it. I know I often wished I could keep up a Smokestack lock for longer than I was able in the past, or I didn't have a real lock because my opponent had been able to deal with some of my permanents or because I drew nothing relevant. It would be a lie, of course, to say that the cipt clause didn't stink badly in the cases you outlined. (Wasteland hurts even more in those cases.)
What I intend to test MPlains for is
- recurring Armageddon and Angels (with Smokestack/Armageddon and Flagstones as a shuffle effect - slow and unreliable as it may be, it still gives me an extra option)
- keeping up Stack at two forever in the face of decks that can potentially visit mass destruction upon enchantments and artifacts given wiggle room (making it problematic to keep sacrificing newly drawn permanents)
- out-stacking opposing Crucibles even if I have drawn/fetched mutiple Plains already
- out-stacking Loam in a reasonable time frame (or keeping up with it long enough to draw an Armageddon in case of Exploration)
Granted, these are all corner cases that allow MPlains to prosper only under special circumstances, arguably best adressed via boarding and metagaming. As I said, I myself am far from convinced.

Melwis
05-10-2008, 08:10 AM
Quick question: Isn't Flagstones what makes your Magus survive after you have resolved an Armageddon? Why is everyone "only" running 3?

Sanguine Voyeur
05-10-2008, 08:18 AM
Magus doesn't have to survive and Aramgeddon to be effective. If you 'geddon with a Magus out, even with out a Crucible, Mox, or Flagstones, you'll have wiped the opponent's board of lands and creatures. Combined with other lock pieces, this can be game swinging.

Three Flagstones may be the optimal number due the the tempo loss of when you hit two. Early game mana is essential, you need to put down enough lock pieces to not lose.

Nihil Credo
05-10-2008, 12:22 PM
"Everyone" != "The last two lists that were posted"

According to DeckCheck.net, the average for recent monowhite Stax lists is 3.54 Flagstones.

Cait_Sith
05-10-2008, 12:53 PM
Another way for Magus to survive is to simply run Darksteel Citadel It is what I have been doing since long before this thread popped up and it works great.

On Mistveil Plains:

What does it give that balances out the comes into play tapped? Even if nine times out of ten the drawback meant nothing, you need the "put on the bottom" clause to be relevant eight times out of 10 and, with your extremely few shuffle effects, I doubt it will matter greatly 8 times out of one hundred.

In short it takes little away, but gives even less back.

In shorter, not worth it.

Silverdragon
05-10-2008, 01:14 PM
So I'm not sold completely yet on the duskrider and mindcensor in the sb. Duskrider has mostly been there tombstalker, and the fact that I've still never seen a deed hit him. Mindcensor has its good points and bad ones. Its great for hours of fun against fetches, survival, combat tricks, and getting threats into play against control. It just seems like I should be running somethign better, but have yet to find someting that fits.



I'd suggest either Karmic Justice or Pithing Needle if you are not satisfied with the creatures in your sideboard. Or you could run additional lands so you can increase your landcount after boarding for matchups where you might need to Geddon more than once.
Defense Grids for the times you do play against control or aggro-control might also be a good option but I don't know how common Landstill and the like are in your meta.
The 25 land including 2 Tabernacle concernes me a bit. Maybe you should cut an Oblivion Ring or a Tabernacle for one more manaproducing land (Flagstones no.4) to go up to 24 manaproducing lands. Oh and you should definitely cut a Muse for the 4th Ghostly Prison. 1 mana makes a huge difference against a good Goblins draw (also not being a creature is very valuable preboard).

@Darksteel Citadel
Between 4 Mox Diamond, 4 Crucible, 4 Flagstones (and the option to play a land from your hand after Armageddon sometimes) it has been a long time since I've seen a Magus die because I couldn't pay the upkeep. Darksteel Citadel might help you get back in the game faster after a Geddon or even let you ignore the Geddon completely but imho it is not needed. I'd rather have a Factory or Wasteland instead.

Cait_Sith
05-10-2008, 01:16 PM
Citadel, Wasteland, and Factory and do have have problems with colored mana at all.

Why NOT run Citadel? It survives Armageddon to allow for a greatly speeded recovery. It has a very insignificant drawback.You stand to gain more than you stand to lose from it.

Silverdragon
05-10-2008, 07:30 PM
Now you've got me interested Cait_Sith. Can you post your manabase or your complete decklist because I always struggle with what to take out for the various lands.
For reference here's what I think should always be part of the manabase:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones (yes I think running only 3 is a mistake)
6 Plains

That's 18 lands so far. Now you have 7-8 slots left at most. Normally I play 2 more Plains (especially when I have 3 Exalted Angels and Oblivion Rings maindeck), 2 Wastelands and 3 Factories. The 26th land could be Tabernacle.
With Darksteel Citadel I'm assuming you play 2 of them instead of the additional Plains which is not an option for me because even with 8 Plains I get colorscrewed more often than I'd like.
So the other option (for me at least) would be to cut either Factory/Wasteland or Exalted Angels (reducing the need for white mana so I can then cut Plains). Maybe it's just me being unlucky with colorscrew but anyway as I said I'd rather take Wasteland number 3 and 4 or the last Factory before I'd add a Citadel.

Melwis
05-11-2008, 03:58 PM
Now you've got me interested Cait_Sith. Can you post your manabase or your complete decklist because I always struggle with what to take out for the various lands.
For reference here's what I think should always be part of the manabase:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones (yes I think running only 3 is a mistake)
6 Plains

That's 18 lands so far. Now you have 7-8 slots left at most. Normally I play 2 more Plains (especially when I have 3 Exalted Angels and Oblivion Rings maindeck), 2 Wastelands and 3 Factories. The 26th land could be Tabernacle.
With Darksteel Citadel I'm assuming you play 2 of them instead of the additional Plains which is not an option for me because even with 8 Plains I get colorscrewed more often than I'd like.
So the other option (for me at least) would be to cut either Factory/Wasteland or Exalted Angels (reducing the need for white mana so I can then cut Plains). Maybe it's just me being unlucky with colorscrew but anyway as I said I'd rather take Wasteland number 3 and 4 or the last Factory before I'd add a Citadel.

Glad to see someone else going with 4 Flagstones :) It seems solid.

However, could you (or someone else ofc) tell me what is the awesomness with Oblivion Ring? =)

Melwis
05-12-2008, 12:19 PM
I hope my question isn't to dumb lol =P

Arsenal
05-12-2008, 12:33 PM
It's semi-permanent, versatile removal that has a mana cost that plays nicely with our manabase. Overall, pretty nice to have in your SB for any matchups that have problematic, all-in strategies.

Noman Peopled
05-12-2008, 04:30 PM
I've done some further testing with Mistveil Plains if anyone's interested, and you guys were right - mostly. I've found that against deck that can a) seriously meddle with your permanent base (anything red, red/green basically, with honorable mentions to Deed/Explosives) and b) lay down a lot of permanents itself (Goblin tokens, Loam/Crucible or whatever, with ETW and Dredge being exceptions due to speed) it does hold its own.
However, seeing as I want to sideboard Suppression Field against Goblins, that leaves Loam, which can be adequately adressed with the proper card choices as well, without making myself more vulnerable to Wastes, even if it's only a bit. (As a sidenote, Countryside Crusher vs mana denial and Ghostly Prison = :D :D :D

@ Oblivion Ring
O-Ring is great because it covers one of Stax' weaknesses, that being its inability to deal with problem permanents. Stax is designed to work through multiple effects stacking up - sometimes the deck just doesn't click the way it has to to deal with a particular permanent. Despite the multitude of lock effects, there's all kind of things that can go wrong, especially if your opponent has access to Ancient Grudge or Shattering Spree postboard or if your draw craps out on you.
For example, I have lost quite a few games because I didn't draw Armageddon in time and Smokestack wasn't enough, or because I wasn't able to destroy my opponent's Moxen. I got beat by a single Jaya and two lands once. I just didn't draw what I needed to upkeep her to death and had already taken grief from Tomb.
Prior to [whatever set O-Ring was in] I was sideboarding Faith's Fetters which has its advantages (can be played ony anything to gain life or shut down a land's ability) but doesn't cover the weak spot as well, imo - it leaves static abilities (Wheel of Sun and Moon) and triggers (Ancient Runes, I guess? oh, I once got beat by a random Boggart Shenanigans) untouched.

Also, I' d be interested where those of you who have Ravages of War bought theirs. Other than ebay. (Fell free to PM me rather than cluttering up the thread.)

Melwis
05-12-2008, 05:10 PM
Summons(5):
--------------
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Windborn Muse

Sorceries(5):
--------------
3 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War

Enchantments(5):
-------------------
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Oblivion Ring

Artifacts(20):
---------------
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Trinisphere
2 Smokestack
2 Tangle Wire

Lands(25):
------------
6 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 Crystal Vein

This is what I think my Armageddon Stax will look like but ofc I will listen if you think something is wrong with it. After understanding how Oblivion Ring works I realise it is key once you decide to throw Smokestack out. But the thing I like about it the most (which has been stated) is that it takes care of random single permanents that the deck can have a hard time with otherwise.

Before I was running 24 lands and it didn't seem to be enough (unlucky?) and so I decided to add another one. I hardly think it will be negative for the deck because it is crucial that you dont miss a single land drop the first 2-3 turns imo. This could really be the difference of getting or losing control in a match. As you can see i'm running 3 Crystal Veins which some of you might not agree with but I really think it deserves it's place. Maybe not as a 3-of but atleast 2. Even if you have to sac it in the start it could power out a 3cc spell which will probably turn out better in the match overall.

I am eager to try Tangle Wire in the deck. It seems solid to me atleast. Not more than 2 tho because to throw it out on turn 1-2 won't make the most use of it. It has a rather funny bonus usage to it aswell (i'm not sure it's good tho lol) and that is to tap Trinisphere with it if you want to throw out a Mox during mid/late game for some special reason.

In my previous list I had 6 Geddons and it seemed a bit to much. You really don't want/need to cast more than 1 each game and therefore I think 5 copies should do since you won't be casting them during early game. After Geddon you got Wasteland should your opponent topdeck to many lands.

Things I am not sure about in the list:

- Windborn Muse
- 2 Smokestacks (Could be 3 but it usually doesn't get useful until late game to throw in the final lock)

I also think Mishra's Factory is a bit interesting. If I didn't use Muse I would probably go with 4 Magus + 2-3 Mishra's.

Any toughts on the list and everything I have mentioned is appreciated big time!

Arsenal
05-12-2008, 05:23 PM
Tangle Wire is like Trinisphere 4-8 to me. If powered out turn 1, it shuts down the game for a few turns, with your opponent feeling the effects more than you (hopefully). After turn 3, it's effectiveness is dampened, even more so than a post-turn 3 Trinisphere (Brainstorms costing 3 mana on turn 4 under a Trinisphere is still great, but not as great as turn 1 Trinisphere -> Time Walk for next 2 turns). But, there have been numerous arguments against as it makes the winnable matchups even more so, but doesn't do anything to help your unfavorable matchups significantly.

Skeggi
05-13-2008, 04:10 PM
@The Wes: if you want to run a deck with more agains a high aggro meta, I still think Windborn Muse is too weak. Run 4 Ghostly Prisons, perhaps even throw in some Tundra's and add Propaganda. You should also look in to Peacekeeper.

@Caith Sith: I must say I hate match-ups with Darksteel Citadel. But on the other hand; I feel the 'traditional' lands are stronger. It might be a very good idea if you plan to run 6-8 Geddons.

@Silverdragon and Melwis: I hate 4 Flagstones, I think 4 is a mistake lol, but I guess we have to agree to disagree :cool:

@Melwis: Oblivion Ring is preferrably a sideboard card; however I still run them mainboard until I can get my hands on Ravages of War. Have a look at my list a couple of pages back, I still think it's a good list if you have no Ravages of War :)

@Arsenal: Tangle Wire has always been a nice addition to any Stax deck, but what would you replace it for?

Melwis
05-13-2008, 04:31 PM
@Silverdragon and Melwis: I hate 4 Flagstones, I think 4 is a mistake lol, but I guess we have to agree to disagree :cool:

I think i'm actually going to cut one and add in Darksteel Citadel as a 1-of. The reasoning behind this is because I played 2 Exalted Angels in the deck not long ago (thus making me want as much white mana as possible). With Angels out I no longer need more than one white mana source in the field (which I think shouldn't be a problem) therefore i'm cutting one :)

P.S: I do think however that having 4 Flagstones and 1 Citadel would hardly count as something bad for the deck. Having these will turn your Armageddons into "Destroy target opponents lands" which is a good enough reason to include them yes?

Altough I might be overexaggerating just a little bit but still almost ;)

georgjorge
05-14-2008, 04:19 PM
Sorry if it was already mentioned...anyone else here find Gaddock Teeg largely annoying for this deck ? No Stax, no Geddons, no Chalice...anything boardable except Oblivion Ring possible ?

Melwis
05-14-2008, 04:52 PM
How many win conditions is considered to be optimal when running Stax? I mean, if everything turns out in your favor and you get your opponent locked down, there is really no difference in swinging for 2 every turn (Magus) or 4 (Angel).

Currently i'm thinking of going with 4 Magus's and 2 Mishra's (enough?)because with a Magus out I still only have to pay 1 mana even if I have Mishra in play aswell and Mishra + Crucible is sweet :)

Nihil Credo
05-14-2008, 06:40 PM
@Georgjorge: Both Oblivion Ring and Powder Keg (standard SB fare) can take care of Teeg. Obviously, though, how many of them and what cards to take out depend on the deck that is running him.

A simple example: if it's UGW Thresh, you probably prefer Powder Keg so you can take out 'Goyfs and/or Mages as well (though, once they're out of FoW, you must have quite a bad draw in order to lose to just Teeg; if they have Teeg they almost definitely don't have Explosives). If it is, say, a green/white midrange deck, Oblivion Ring can deal with whatever random stuff they have (Vial, etc.). If 4C Landstill is boarding him, you probably should side Ring, and pray that you have a REALLY busted hand.

@Melwis: Exalted Angel isn't just a win condition, she is effectively a lock piece, as much as Ghostly Prison.

The premise of White Stax is to make it as costly as possible for the opponent to attack with his creatures (whether they're Goblins, Goyfs, or even Mishra's Factories). In that perspective, an Angel is like a Maze of Ith, more or less nullifying one attacker every time she swings - an especially desirable effect when the rest of your cards make it difficult for the opponent to attack with multiple creatures. Kor Haven works so well for the very same reason.

Synergy is key in Stax; currently the only maindeck cards that don't contribute to the "overtaxing" plan are Chalice of the Void (which is just too amazing with this mana base) and, if you want, Oblivion Ring (which can save you from random cards you hate to see, like opposing Crucibles - though personally, I still don't find it worth the slots). Every other card increases the price for your opponent to actually deal damage to you, and Angel is one of the best at that.

Noman Peopled
05-15-2008, 02:12 AM
In that perspective, an Angel is like a Maze of Ith, more or less nullifying one attacker every time she swings - an especially desirable effect when the rest of your cards make it difficult for the opponent to attack with multiple creatures. Kor Haven works so well for the very same reason.
It's worth noting that even when she doesn't race or at least nullify creatures, she keeps you out of Tomb-related trouble. I've been on the lookout for other win conditions for like forever, even considering Oversoul very briefly, or at least lock pieces strong enough to more than balance her loss, but I've always returned to at least a duo of Angels. I've found you really can't go over the magic CMC of 4 because of Armageddon and City of Traitors (I was trying Voidstone Gargoyle at the time).


and, if you want, Oblivion Ring (which can save you from random cards you hate to see, like opposing Crucibles - though personally, I still don't find it worth the slots). Every other card increases the price for your opponent to actually deal damage to you, and Angel is one of the best at that.
I've found O-Ring to be increasingly effective the more random stuff comes up. I would put it in the side at best if I knew to expect only top tier variants. As you said, Stax makes it difficult for an opponent to attack in swarms, but if a local opponent is trying out Korlash or Reanimator, Powder Keg is underwhelming.
A similar thing is true should your local opponents sideboard heavily against you, especially Serenity, Sacred Ground, and BWish targets.

Gambit
05-27-2008, 01:15 PM
I took 8th out of 100 at the pt hollywood side event, here's a real quick report:

My list:
Maindeck:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Mishra's Factory
6 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Wasteland
2 Exalted Angel
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

Sideboard:
3 Defense Grid
3 Tormods Crypt
3 Humility
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Suppression Field

Notice: No O-rings; this deck can't trade 1 for 1, My sideboard was pretty awsome all day, I almost always sided out angels. I think I did 20 damage only one game all day while the rest were locked oppenents scooping.

Round 1; Italian pro playing Fetchland Tendrils
G1: As we shuffle I see a tendrils, I win the roll and open with chalice at 0 (felt a little like a bitch becuase I knew he was playing combo or I would have opening chalice @ 1) + crucible with a wasteland in hand. He can't do too much with out his explosive 0 drops and I eventually stick some more lock pieces after I geddon away his few basics that he fetched.

G2: On the play I have a turn 1 3-sphere that is duressed away, I believe I drop a t-crypt and a chalice at 0. He ramps up with dark rits and threshed cabal rits baiting my crypt, I don't bite and he goes to IGG, I crypt response (at this point he has about 6 mana floating) he says ok, IGG resolves he discards his hand (infernal tutor) returns it and tutors tendrils FTW.

g3: I get chalice at 0 followed by a bunch more lock pieces and keep him off any mana. He scoops.

1-0
2-1

Round 2: Fish
g1: This is such a good matchup as everything I cast is a bomb against him. I stick some stuff and eventually get smokestack to eat all his perminants.
g2: No sideboarding, same as game 1

2-0
4-1

Round 3: UWb Landstill
G1: I mull to 6 with a gassy 1-lander and a mox. If I can juuuuust rip a land....nope, not for 3 turns. But landstill doesn't have the fastest clock. I soon start drawing lands and after baiting some c-spells with a trinisphere etc, I stick a crucible and 'geddon. I win shortly after
g2: I side in defense grids, suppression fields, and seals of cleansing. I think a turn 1 defense grid is forced, but I do resolve one shortly after, it's too taxing on his manabase and I win soon after.
3-0\
6-1

Round 4: STAX mirror...shit
G1
He opens flagstones and I'm hoping for death and taxes or white weenie or shit anything else. I open land, mox, chalice at 1. He plays E. Explosives and blows up my mox and chalice. A battle over resolving a crucible and keeping it on the table occurs and he eventually wins the battle and I scoop as I can't keep anything on the board.
g2: I side in seals of cleansing and tormods crypts. I come out strong with a very quick crucible and smokestack. He however has return to dust to kill both of them, who plans for the mirror? He sticks a crucible and some white spellshaper that is discard a card destroy target artifact or enchantment...shit. He exausts his hand and 'geddons. Next turn with no lands I drop crypt and activate taking all his land. He still has the advantage and does eventually win anyway.
3-1
6-3

Round 4: UGb Thresh
g1: I stick a trinisphere and do what this deck does against thresh, smash it.
g2: I resolve a geddon, but he has to dark confidants on the table, they do 20 damage to him as I have a ghostly prison out and he can't swing for a few turns. However, he did beat me down to 2 and the following turn would kill me, he was at 6 and revealed FOW and thirst for Knowledge of the confidants...awsome.

4-1
8-3

Round 5: Dragon Stompy
G1: He plays turn 1 magus of the moon. Eh, my turn 1 trinisphere wouldn't have been that good anyway. He then drops a morph (raiders) and another magus. I just can't find the right pieces and he beats for the win

g2. My hand is awsome, Magus of the T, g-prison, geddon and enough mana to make it happen. I let him resolve a couple threats then drop magus and geddon. He loses his board and can't recover.

g3: We both mull to 6, he exausts his hand for turn 1 Pit Dragon. I play nothing and pass, he beats for 10, I drop suppression field, he beats me to 2. I drop g-prison and lose.
4-2
9-5

Round 6: French Pro with Belcher
This is an old school belcher build with no ETW.
G1: He is on the play and opens with turn 1 land grant revealing some gas and Spoils of the vault, I joke with him about spoiling for 20, he fetches a bayou. My turn I drop wasteland and waste it, in response he spoils for belcher, revealing 20 cards...GG.
G2: He still has no idea what I'm playing and drops a turn 1 birds of paradise and a LED. I play turn 1 chalice at 0 and something else. Eventually I get a 3-sphere on the board and am beating with a factory. He draws his bayou to get to 3 mana and plays welder. Soon he begins welding out my chalices and 3 spheres for mox diamonds. He goes off and wins.
g3: I have turn 2 3-sphere and risk that he won't win turn 1 as his build seems slower. I doesn't do much and I drop turn two trinisphere. I soon drop chalices, 2 suppression fields, crucible, and lots of other locks. He scoops.
5-2
11-6

Round 8 Bomberman
g1: I have been complimenting him all day on playing bomberman as It's a deck I really like. I drop some lock pieces and a trinisphere followed by a geddon and a smokestack, he scoops.
g2: He keepers into darksteel collosus. I have the magus and geddon in my hand, I drop magus with 4 mana available, get beat for 11, need to rip a land off the top or die, I die.
g3: too many lock pieces and 3 geddons later I finally deal 20 damage.
6-2
13-7

I take 8th place out of 98 which nets me 6 packs of shadowmoor.

Arsenal_Fan
05-27-2008, 01:41 PM
Great Job Gambit. What are your thoughts on your sideboard and the singleton Horizon Canopy? Would you make any changes to the sideboard or do you feel that it is optimal for a random metagame?

Gambit
05-27-2008, 02:13 PM
Great Job Gambit. What are your thoughts on your sideboard and the singleton Horizon Canopy? Would you make any changes to the sideboard or do you feel that it is optimal for a random metagame?


Sideboard was awsome all day, I was expecting more landstill which was giving me fits with deeds during playtesting, so a lot of my board was for battling that. Humilitys came in against D-stompy, but I never drew one. I sided in suppression fields a bunch and really liked them. I often sided out the 2 angels and just went for the lock.

The one of horizon canopy was good all day, I basically just cycled it each time I got it out, with a crucible it can be great as recurring draw. At this point, it stays.

Misplayer
05-27-2008, 02:30 PM
Gambit, congrats on the finish. You mentioned you don't like going 1-for-1 with O-Rings but you're willing to do so out of the side with Seal of Cleansing. Your list is tight though and I would agree it looks optimal for an unknown meta, seeing how you run 4 each of cards that wreck aggro (Magus, Ghostly Prison) and likewise for combo (3sphere, Chalice). I think in a more known metagame you could tune the list to fit the Oblivion Rings. Trading 1-for-1 is worth it when their 1 is a bomb (e.g. Tombstalker, Dreadnought, opposing Crucibles, Deed if played without mana to activate open). But hey, your results speak for themselves.

Arsenal
05-27-2008, 02:41 PM
Gambit, I noticed some unorthodox card choices that your opponents played; Fetchland Tendrils & Duress, Stax (mono-white presumably) & Engineered Explosives, and UGB Thresh & Thirst for Knowledge (they run enough artifacts to support this?). What other things did you notice re: opponent card choices?

Gambit
05-27-2008, 02:46 PM
Gambit, congrats on the finish. You mentioned you don't like going 1-for-1 with O-Rings but you're willing to do so out of the side with Seal of Cleansing. Your list is tight though and I would agree it looks optimal for an unknown meta, seeing how you run 4 each of cards that wreck aggro (Magus, Ghostly Prison) and likewise for combo (3sphere, Chalice). I think in a more known metagame you could tune the list to fit the Oblivion Rings. Trading 1-for-1 is worth it when their 1 is a bomb (e.g. Tombstalker, Dreadnought, opposing Crucibles, Deed if played without mana to activate open). But hey, your results speak for themselves.

Yes, I know. But I think seal is better. Agro usually isn't a problem, therefore o-ringing a creature isn't as relevent. Seal deals with 3 of the 4 things you mentioned while being 1 mana less (not super relevent) and also sitting on the board and not in your hand, can be sacced to smokestack. I used it to kill an opposing crucible in the mirror, which should be considered more than a 1 for 1. A jitte in response to equiping, better than what o-ring would have done, and a lions eye diamond where I wouldn't have had the mana that turn to o-ring, possibly saving my ass. There is obvious cases where an o-ring would be better, but for now I like the seal. I am 2 for 2 top 8ing 50+ person tournaments, but last tournament I did have the rings in the board, however I think this version of the SB is stronger and has answers to basically everything.

Gambit
05-27-2008, 02:49 PM
Gambit, I noticed some unorthodox card choices that your opponents played; Fetchland Tendrils & Duress, Stax (mono-white presumably) & Engineered Explosives, and UGB Thresh & Thirst for Knowledge (they run enough artifacts to support this?). What other things did you notice re: opponent card choices?


Yep, the duress came out of the board for FT, doesn't seem bad especially against me.
Explosives surprised me in the stax list, although there was word before hand about a bunch of belcher and ichorid, so I believe it was a meta decision for tokens.
The thresh list with thirsts also ran some chrome moxes, but I don't believe the list was optimal.
Only other thing that suprised me was the old belcher list with plunges and spoils.

BKclassic
05-28-2008, 12:42 AM
I take 8th place out of 98 which nets me 6 packs of shadowmoor.

Holy crap! 8 rounds of magic for 6 packs! Man, I get pretty exhausted after 5 or 6 rounds and start to lose focus, and thats usually for a real prize. Bravo!

Jaiminho
05-28-2008, 12:51 AM
Just want to point that Chalice @ 1 >>>>>>>>> Chalice @ 0 against FT. If that was actually FT.

Gambit
05-28-2008, 01:40 AM
Just want to point that Chalice @ 1 >>>>>>>>> Chalice @ 0 against FT. If that was actually FT.

But chalice at zero stops them from going super broken; I had a wasteland in hand and a crucible on the board, so the plan was to stop artifact mana.
And it definately looked like FT, ponders, b-storms, etc. It may not be the exact most recent list

ChillerKiller0815
05-28-2008, 05:48 AM
Hi guys,
I want to build myself a Geddonstaxx-Deck but I am not really willing to buy Ravages of War and a Tebernacle-Land. So here is my first question: Are these 2 cards Mandatory? And if not would the power level decrease or would it be more a playstile question and personal preference? So to ask the same thing again: Is a list containing these two cards strictly better then one without them?

This is the list I had in mind:

25
4xFlagstones of Trokair
4xAncient Tomb
4xCity of Traitors
6xPlains
2xWasteland
1xDarksteel Citadel -> really adds some gas to the “geddon” strategy
2xMishra´s Factory
2xHorizon Canopy -> very useful drawengine during mid- to lategame and is an additional white-mana-source

29
4xChalice of the Void
4xGhostly Prison
4xArmageddon -> If I had the money I would play a 2/2 or2/3 Geddon/Ravages split
4xTrinisphere
4xMox Diamond
4xCrucible of Worlds
3xSmokestack -> I sort of miss the Smokestack #4 …..Thoughts???
2xOblivion Ring -> Could be 1x + 1xRavages of War, but 1xO-Ring seems to random!

6
4xMagus of the Tabernacle -> Could be 3x +1xTabernacle -Land
2xExalted Angel


Sideboard:

3xTormond´s Crypt
3xDefense Grid
3xSupression Field
3xPithing Needle
3xAura of Silence/Seal of Cleansing

Other Sideboardoptions:

3xKarmic Justice
3xWheel of Sun and Moon
3xHumility
3xWindborn Muse
3xRule of Law

Other Cards that are at least interesting for some metas:
Normad Stadium
Kor Haven
(Eater of Days) -> Win More Tech with active Smokestack


Do you guys have any thoughts to my questions and remarks? Do you have anything to add to the possible cards that could go into the sideboard???

Thanks in advance

Sanguine Voyeur
05-28-2008, 06:52 AM
Are these 2 cards Mandatory?No, some list run only Armageddon and many don't run the Tabernacle.

ChillerKiller0815
05-28-2008, 07:09 AM
No, some list run only Armageddon and many don't run the Tabernacle.

But are they not being run because they aren´t needed or maybe even kill more or do people not play them because they are simply to expensive to buy them?

So is a list playing 5 geddons better then 4 ??? And is the single Tabernacle land better then the Magus?

So agsin: Is a list running Ravages of War and Tabernacle BETTER then the one that doesn´t run them??????

Gambit
05-28-2008, 10:03 AM
Armageddon is the card that makes the deck playable and competitive, I would run 5 if I had a ravages and believe the deck would be better. The tabernacle land isn't necessary, though can be amazing.

Nihil Credo
05-28-2008, 11:23 AM
So agsin: Is a list running Ravages of War and Tabernacle BETTER then the one that doesn´t run them??????
100% yes to the Ravages of War - in testing, I determined 5 to be the correct number of Armageddon effects, and IIRC others independently found the same.

90% yes to the Tabernacle - there might be some metagames in which it's superfluous, but it's almost always at least an excellent SB slot.

Angantyr
05-28-2008, 12:38 PM
But are they not being run because they aren´t needed or maybe even kill more or do people not play them because they are simply to expensive to buy them?

So is a list playing 5 geddons better then 4 ??? And is the single Tabernacle land better then the Magus?

So agsin: Is a list running Ravages of War and Tabernacle BETTER then the one that doesn´t run them??????

Of course it is better to run them, but these card are not essential to the deck. I would love to run them, but they are far too expensive for me.

Noman Peopled
05-29-2008, 04:12 AM
Of course it is better to run them, but these card are not essential to the deck. I would love to run them, but they are far too expensive for me.
Absolutely true.
If I had four Ravages, I'd probably go bonkers with Darksteel Citadel and Chrome Moxen. As is, Stax can hold its own with no Tabernacle and only four Geddons.

@ list:
during my testing, I often found Horizon Canopy useful, but it was unspectacular even more often. I have it as a one-of but it's pretty much useless when you have the Smokestack or for a few turns after you geddon with a Crucible in place. That said, I run it as a one-of, but I seldom do more than cycle it once.
Depending on your meta, I would up the Wastes count, and very probably the Factory count as well. It's not only a win condition, it can chump infinitely with Crucible and still block Mongeese or any Goblin dead without it.
Darksteel Citadel is a card I really like but the usefulness is diminished somewhat by the fact that it's arguably worse (and certainly more gamestate -dependent) thany, say, Factory, and that you very often don't need it (Crucible, Flagstones, Moxen). As I mentioned, I'd be all over it if I had, say two or three Ravages.

I'd recommend upping the number of Smokestacks to four without Ravages since you have only four Geddons (as do I). Mana denial is absolutely vital to the deck and Smokestack does work to your favor even without Crucible. Trinisphere does little if you don't draw Akroma and your opponent plays land after land - especially true for opponents with a high permanent count on their own (Goblins for example).

While I wouldn't shy away from playing a singleton O-Ring just because it seems random, I have actually cut a Ghostly Prison for a second one. That's largely a metagame choice, though. I'm seeing Crucibles quite often.

Melwis
05-29-2008, 05:12 AM
100% yes to the Ravages of War - in testing, I determined 5 to be the correct number of Armageddon effects, and IIRC others independently found the same.

90% yes to the Tabernacle - there might be some metagames in which it's superfluous, but it's almost always at least an excellent SB slot.

I'm running 6 Geddon effects (3 Ravages, 3 Geddons) and I have yet to think "Hey, I really didn't want this Geddon I just draw". However, there have been times where I wish I wanted to draw it.

Running 6 Geddons also makes it possible to cut 1-2 Wastelands. While these are stupid with Crucible, we all know that, I just think Armageddon handles the mana denial better most of the times.

I have never liked the Tabernacle land however. The fact that it doesn't tap for mana is the thing that makes it a no go for me. And the synergy with Armageddon/Ravages is much more worse than with Magus. You can never play the land if you want synergy with it and the Geddon effect. Well, if you happen to have 5 lands out (Tabernacle being one of them), Armageddon in your hand and Crucible in play it could also work. Magus however works as soon as I have 4 mana to play him and then whenever I draw Armageddon the synergy is there.

That what I think atleast :)

Van Phanel
05-29-2008, 05:36 AM
Well, that's not quite it. With Magus you still need a fifth mana in order to play a Geddon.

What is absolutely huge about Tabernacle is that it is uncounterable. Even if (for example) Thresh has a favorable boardposition and you have nothing, your Armageddon can win the game right thereif you just follow it up with Tabernacle. It obviously can be pitched to Mox as well. The downside is that it doesn't provide you with a 2/6 body, but still a singleton is worth it's inclusion from what testing shows.

Melwis
05-29-2008, 06:05 AM
Well, that's not quite it. With Magus you still need a fifth mana in order to play a Geddon.

What is absolutely huge about Tabernacle is that it is uncounterable. Even if (for example) Thresh has a favorable boardposition and you have nothing, your Armageddon can win the game right thereif you just follow it up with Tabernacle. It obviously can be pitched to Mox as well. The downside is that it doesn't provide you with a 2/6 body, but still a singleton is worth it's inclusion from what testing shows.

You're right about 5 mana being needed for Magus if you want him alive. But sometimes you might just have to play Armageddon asap in order to stay alive in which case it is possible with 4 mana when talking Magus + Geddon. You can never have this option with Tabernacle + Geddon. And as you said, Magus is a 2/6 body which is huge.

The conclusion I think we both can agree on is that Magus is strictly better then the Tabernacle land. Now, it was never a question wether you should go with Magus or the land so running both is an option. But I compared Magus with Tabernacle strictly to show that the land is not as good and I think having an extra Factory, Flagstones or even Crystal Vein is better than having the 1-of Tabernacle land.

Nihil Credo
05-29-2008, 07:32 AM
The conclusion I think we both can agree on is that Magus is strictly better then the Tabernacle land.

"Strictly" is a lot to claim. Tabernacle saves you against Belcher pouring 14 tokens out on turn 1. Tabernacle saves you from Goblins' most busted Lackey openings, and is a Time Walk against them even if they Wasteland it next turn. Tabernacle slows Survival's mana development as soon as needed, whereas Magus only hits them after they've done some business.

In most of the current metagames, I think it's a dead card often enough (Landstill, combo, Dreadnought, Burn) that it's too risky to play maindeck. But assuming I had one or two copies, I'd never cut it from the sideboard.

Fred Bear
05-29-2008, 09:11 AM
While Nihil is right that 'strictly' is a little on the strong side of the argument, I personally feel the deck is stronger without using the Tabernacle land in either the main or side.

My strongest argument against the land isn't cost, it's the simple inconsistencies associated with it. You absolutely cannot run it as a land since it doesn't produce mana (unless you are pitching it to Mox) - which means you have to run it in a spell slot (usually it's the 25th-26th Land or '36th-37th' Spell depending on your preference). So, you have to ask yourself if it is 'stronger' than the spell it replaces. I, personally, run only 3 Magus and sometimes the 4th in the side depending on the meta and almost never want/need the effect more often than that. For me, that's where I decide not to look further (I have tested several deck configurations with it, though), but just in case you want a little something more...

Here are some numbers to remember (please note that these don't take into account every situation/scenario - these are general probabilities), if you run it as a 1-of, you have a 12% chance of it being in your opening hand and only a 30% chance of seeing it in your first 10 turns. Play 2 and the numbers increase to 22% in the opener and 50% by turn 10. Playing 3 and 4 obviously increases these odds, but I think the point is moot since playing 3 or 4 Legendary Lands is almost never correct (almost - I do play 4 Flagstones, of course).

So, while what Nihil claims is definitely true (Tabernacle will stop a horde of Turn 1 Goblins and slow Survival's early turn mana development)... It's not doing it very often. If you play 2, you will stop those 14 Turn 1 Goblins once every 5 games with it. The other 4 times - you still need to find another answer.

I'm going to stop this argument there because this is where it gets very complicated because in order to evaluate the situation properly you have to discuss what you took out for the Tabernacles, what is/are the answers the other 4 times, etc. (most people just claim testing data, but remember that the numbers should support the testing - this, in and of itself, is another topic altogether, but my belief is that personal preference is usually misidentified as testing when the numbers do not support the conclusions).

The other point to consider is that The Tabernacle will cost you a land drop which for this deck is often more important than a spell. We play 24-25 lands plus 4 Diamonds giving us a deck that is nearly 50% mana sources. Hell, 7-8 of those sources produce 2 mana each. Mana production is very important to this deck and 'skipping' a turn to play The Taberancle must be carefully considered. As I said before, you have to ask - "Is The Tabernacle better/stronger more often than these 1-2 cards that I'm dropping?" My answer based on my testing and calculations is - NO.

Fred Bear...

Angantyr
05-29-2008, 10:06 AM
You're right about 5 mana being needed for Magus if you want him alive. But sometimes you might just have to play Armageddon asap in order to stay alive in which case it is possible with 4 mana when talking Magus + Geddon. You can never have this option with Tabernacle + Geddon. And as you said, Magus is a 2/6 body which is huge.

The conclusion I think we both can agree on is that Magus is strictly better then the Tabernacle land. Now, it was never a question wether you should go with Magus or the land so running both is an option. But I compared Magus with Tabernacle strictly to show that the land is not as good and I think having an extra Factory, Flagstones or even Crystal Vein is better than having the 1-of Tabernacle land.

It depends on your metagame. If you need a fifth taxing effect, Taberncale at Pendrell Vale is the right choice.
Besides, Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale has the advantage of not beeing a creature.
Magus + Tabernacle = 2 mana each turn.
Magus + Magus = 4 mana each turn.
Well, I do not play Tabernacles, because I can not afford them and I think the other lands I play are more important.

What do you think of Crystal Vein? I played them for a long time, until I realized, that they do not help me in getting a good start. If I sac them on turn one, I have to wait an additional Turn to play the next Spell.
The most beautyful scene in Angel Stax was

1st turn: 2mana Land, Mox Diamond, Morphed Angel
2nd turn: Plains/Flagstones, unmorph Angel

Crystal Vein was unusable for such moves, even playing a 1st turn Trinisphere felt bad, because one had to wait for two turns until the manabase "regenerated".
Now in Armageddon Stax we want to play our Armageddons and our lands are gone afterwards, so the drawback of Crystal Vein is redundant. How important is it to accelerate Armageddon? Usualy I want to setup my board first, playing a Magus, Chalices, Stacks, so it is unlekely that Crystal Vein is needed. What do you think?

Fred Bear
05-29-2008, 11:41 AM
Crystal Vein is not needed. And you are 100% correct with your evaluation. This deck wants to use its 2-mana lands to pound out things like Armageddon or Trinisphere, but when you use Crystal Vein to do this, you often sac the land and often end up slowing yourself down more than your opponent. Another 2-mana land would be nice, but Vein doesn't make the cut.

Fred Bear...

On another note... Has this deck gotten so popular that Ravages of War are really in this kind of demand??? I do a weekly search (I'd like to get the 4th English Version to complete my playset) and have found that the last couple of English Ravages have gone for $200+ on ebay, Asians are regularly topping $100, and I can only find 1 shop with them available - 2 Asian for $199.99 each and 1 English for $279.99! It might be time to sell...

Melwis
05-29-2008, 01:14 PM
Crystal Vein is not even close to either Tombs or City i'm aware of that. But having them in the deck does give you more first turn Chalices & Spheres (which are the biggest reasons to run them). I think getting these cards out on the first turn just has to slow down your opponent alot more than what the land can do to you, especially with Chalice. Getting Chalice out on the
2th turn instead of the 1st is really crucial. You really notice this the times you have Chalice on your hand but no cards to power it out.

Atm I have 2 copies of it in my deck simply because it nets me 10 lands that produces 2 mana. Thats 1/6 of the deck which means that on an average I get 1 of those lands in my starting hand. Not sure if this logic makes enough sense tho..

To sum it all up I can tell you that i'm not certain having Veins in your manabase is the right thing but atm I keep them there.

Skeggi
05-29-2008, 05:10 PM
Crystal Vein is not even close to either Tombs or City i'm aware of that. But having them in the deck does give you more first turn Chalices & Spheres

Mostly when I cannot play a Chalice or a Sphere first turn, it's not because I don't have the mana, but because I didn't mul into a Chalice or a Sphere, and I'm running 4x Ancient Tomb, 3x City of Traitors and 4x Mox Diamond.

About The Tabernacel at Pendrell Vale, I really love it; running 3 Magus and 1 land makes your deck just a bit more flexible, I think; yeah, yeah, I know 1-offs aren't the idea of this deck, but it's basically still a 4-of with a slight alteration.

On the 6 Geddon effects: I totally agree with that part; unfortunately I cannot seem to get my hands on 1 Ravages of War, let alone 2 (and perhaps I want 3).

RockOfTheFormat
05-31-2008, 08:36 PM
Just a heads up Gambit...

There was a better form of stax, and you faced it. I was at the tournament that day, and what I noticed was that the more refined Stax placed higher. He didn't waste slots with Horrizon canopy over Wasteland (horrible call there), nor was he worried about life gain against other decks, so angel was a dead card. Instead he played into control (as stax is supposed to do), and knew that he could armagedon/Tabernacle the piss out of every deck in the meta. Also, unlike your deck he would not have flat rolled over to belcher with the way he was able to consistently flush out the trinisphere and his shpere of resistance SB. He planned for the strongest decks in the meta, and that means beating key components of top decks. LSV was playing a popular deck in StifleNaught, and flat out got wrecked by the other stax deck. In truth, after seeing the other decks there, Stax was a savage meta crusher, with only 1 belcher in the top 8, and no dredge making it into any contention.

There are several shallow spots in your card pool, and there is no reason to run 1 less 2 mana land, unless you are actually trying to dumb the deck down. To be able to consistently play around daze, thereby limiting them to FoW to secure the ability to lose later, you need as much mana as possible. Running the morph creature means that you misplay later trying to keep it in play through an armagedon and tabernacle. When tabernacle is 4 mana, and goes away for the pc of a plowshares then you are behind the ball. This is the best deck I have seen in a long time against the other top meta crashers in Legacy right now, but people are making childish "Standard" style deck fixes. The most consistent deck wins. If you want to win, then play consistent mana, have a strategy that is hard to disrupt, and in reality in Legacy right now play basic land and flagstones... you are trying to make a great legacy deck into an extended clunker.

5 'gedon effects is enough, but honestly how you split them is really no matter, they can play 3 mages, and if they cant keep more than 1 land on the board, then you just tabernacle them out of the game.

You should not have taken the losses you took, but your deck wasn't built to win, only to lose less. The other Stax I saw drew out 5 land in a row against a deck that couldn't beat it unless if drew exactly land, stifle, dreadnaught without a single stax or gedon effect coming out... or ghostly prison, or moat... so on. It accidently won as I heard the other Pilot say.

Melwis
05-31-2008, 09:14 PM
5 'gedon effects is enough...

Cool. Since you're really putting lots of reasons into this I guess I just HAVE to believe you. I mean, after all, 5 'geddon effects is enough...

Seriously tho, this was a rather unecassary post and i'm not even sure who you are referring to but I feel insulted lol.

PS: I am however probably going to switch out my 2 Crystal Veins that I have in my list atm.

Edit: Whops. I see now that it was directed towards Gambit. I tought that was some sort of expression >_< Still. I have never (I mean it) drawn 1 'geddon to much with a total of 6 in my deck so I really don't care if you think it's "enough".

RockOfTheFormat
05-31-2008, 09:25 PM
!!Ancient tomb x 4 + City of Traitors x 4 + Mox Diamond x 4!!

And honestly, 5-6 really matters very little, as long as you stay consistent on other fronts. The deck is very much a hydra, and everyone thinks it is easy to disrupt even though they do not know how to do it? How many times have you seen the desperation stifle on Smokestax as they draw into a worthless card and end up living only 1 turn longer?

Gambit
05-31-2008, 09:29 PM
Just a heads up Gambit...

There was a better form of stax, and you faced it. I was at the tournament that day, and what I noticed was that the more refined Stax placed higher. He didn't waste slots with Horrizon canopy over Wasteland (horrible call there), nor was he worried about life gain against other decks, so angel was a dead card. Instead he played into control (as stax is supposed to do), and knew that he could armagedon/Tabernacle the piss out of every deck in the meta. Also, unlike your deck he would not have flat rolled over to belcher with the way he was able to consistently flush out the trinisphere and his shpere of resistance SB. He planned for the strongest decks in the meta, and that means beating key components of top decks. LSV was playing a popular deck in StifleNaught, and flat out got wrecked by the other stax deck. In truth, after seeing the other decks there, Stax was a savage meta crusher, with only 1 belcher in the top 8, and no dredge making it into any contention.

There are several shallow spots in your card pool, and there is no reason to fun 1 les 2 mana land, unless you are actually trying to dumb the deck down. To be able to consistently play around daze, thereby limiting them to FoW to secure the ability to lose later, you need as much mana as possible. Running the morph creature means that you misplay later trying to keep it in play through an armagedon and tabernacle. When tabernacle is 4 mana, and goes away for the pc of a plowshares then you are behind the ball. This is the best deck I have seen in a long time against the other top meta crashers in Legacy right now, but people are making childish "Standard" style deck fixes. The most consistent deck wins. If you want to win, then play consistent mana, have a strategy that is hard to disrupt, and in reality in Legacy right now play basic land and flagstones... you are trying to make a great legacy deck into an extended clunker.

5 'gedon effects is enough, but honestly how you split them is really no matter, they can play 3 mages, and if they cant keep more than 1 land on the board, then you just tabernacle them out of the game.

You should not have taken the losses you took, but your deck wasn't built to win, only to lose less. The other Stax I saw drew out 5 land in a row against a deck that couldn't beat it unless if drew exactly land, stifle, dreadnaught without a single stax or gedon effect coming out... or ghostly prison, or moat... so on. It accidently won as I heard the other Pilot say.

Are you the person who was playing the deck?
I agree that build was fine, I don't know his exact list, and he ended 6-2 as well. He also likely would have lost to turn 1 Rakdos Pit dragon without a ridiculous hand. He was better prepared for the mirror with Return to Dust in the sideboard, which destroyed my board that would have won me the game against him. Whether his list was better or not is tough to say, I believe I would have crushed Stifle nought.
I'm not sure what you're saying about consistant mana, I'm running 4x of each 2 mana lands. And I'm basically running 4x everything in the deck, how do you get more consistant in a deck with no card draw? Are you saying don't run win conditions? Mishra's factory is a recurring blocker and a win condition. I'm fine with your view on Horizon canopy, it isn't amazing, but it can be good long game.
I'm considering pulling the angels, I usually sided them out. This tournament they weren't good, but other times they've been amazing. Some of your points are valid, some are shallow.

RockOfTheFormat
06-01-2008, 02:25 AM
You picked a great deck Gambit, and honestly you played it as well as you could. I will have to talk to you in person at F&S more about the bad choices I thought you made in card choice, but with several new sets coming out since the last big field Legacy tourney I can totally see some choices. I think that If you don't plan to take on the mirror, then you plan to lose, because avoiding combo in the early rounds means that you will hit the wall in the later rounds with a lot of mirror and random counter-top variants running stifle trix and all that. I got plowed in 2 str8 rounds by turn 1 belch, and turn 2 english breakfast, so I feel the hurt there.

Join the petition to ban belcher, and to unban other more viable and less broken cards. There is no reason that anyone should have to play FoW just to ensure that they don't lose turn 1...

m03
06-01-2008, 02:55 AM
Join the petition to ban belcher, and to unban other more viable and less broken cards. There is no reason that anyone should have to play FoW just to ensure that they don't lose turn 1...

Yet, somehow a turn 1 Trinisphere isn't a broken play and apparently doesn't hose Belcher at all...

Geez.

RockOfTheFormat
06-01-2008, 05:05 PM
So that requires you win a die roll to win the match... kinda dumb bro. Think about it, there is nothing you can do if you aren't playing FoW against belcher game 1 if they win the die roll. Turn 1 trinisphere does nothing if you are facing firebubbles without getting a chance to play magic. Stop being a short sighted donk and start conceptualizing. 9000 cards in the pool, and only 1 playable (mainboard) card against belcher if they win the die roll. Yay fair combo's. Why not just unban Flash?

Sanguine Voyeur
06-01-2008, 05:12 PM
You can beat Belcher by turn one Trinisphere, Chalice at one or two, or Ghostly Prison if they go the Empty the Warrens path.

However, they can go off turn one and win with Belcher. It happens.

m03
06-01-2008, 05:22 PM
So that requires you win a die roll to win the match... kinda dumb bro. Think about it, there is nothing you can do if you aren't playing FoW against belcher game 1 if they win the die roll. Turn 1 trinisphere does nothing if you are facing firebubbles without getting a chance to play magic. Stop being a short sighted donk and start conceptualizing. 9000 cards in the pool, and only 1 playable (mainboard) card against belcher if they win the die roll. Yay fair combo's. Why not just unban Flash?

How about you stop posting personal attacks instead.

A number of combo decks can get a turn 1 win...that's sort of the point. They die to the simplest disruption also.

The only way to stop a turn 1 Trinisphere or CotV is FoW as well, so what's your point?

I've said everything that I'm going to on this.

Silverdragon
06-03-2008, 11:24 AM
And now for something completely different...
I'm going to test some Kitchen Finks between main and side. They have obvious synergy with Smokestack and are a beating against most aggrodecks. Persist also makes opposing boardsweepers (aka Deed) not "that" good anymore.
Obvious problem is the :w::w: in the casting cost.
Any thoughts on where they'd fit in best? I'm thinking of playing an 8 Plains 4 Flagstones manabase and cut one or two Magus to try them main.

Skeggi
06-03-2008, 01:29 PM
Kitchen Finks? Are you sure you play GeddonStax? Sorry, but I don't see the use. But I do encourage you to try it out, and let us know how bad it sucked :tongue:

And yeah, belcher is no fun, although it doesn't always go off turn 1. Or turn 2. Or turn 3. Same with Ichorid. No fun, but doesn't always go off turn 1. Or turn 2. Or turn 3. Same with Fetchland Tendrils or TES, but doesn't always go off turn 1. Or turn 2. Or turn 3. And when these decks don't, basically it means they don't go off at all. But I do agree it's too much of a coin toss for me too :cry:

Misplayer
06-03-2008, 03:35 PM
And yeah, belcher is no fun, although it doesn't always go off turn 1. Or turn 2. Or turn 3. Same with Ichorid. No fun, but doesn't always go off turn 1. Or turn 2. Or turn 3. Same with Fetchland Tendrils or TES, but doesn't always go off turn 1. Or turn 2. Or turn 3. And when these decks don't, basically it means they don't go off at all. But I do agree it's too much of a coin toss for me too :cry:

I agree with this except the part about Fetchland Tendrils. It is by nature extremely resilient because of all the cantrips they run. However, if you mean they won't go off because you're dropping Trinisphere and Chalice on them, then I see your point. They do run maindeck bounce and Serenity out of the side (not to mention I think I read a post by emidln about how he won through Chalice at 1 and 2), so it can still be a very difficult matchup despite all the hate Stax packs. Ichorid is probably the best matchup because they strictly rely on the man-plan and Ghostly Prison will often wreck them.

hugh1130
06-04-2008, 01:52 PM
So, i could use a little list doctoring

so back-round

i like playing control decks, but i play casual magic. I dont know about how anyone else plays casual magic but when i play no one like you when you play control because, in all honesty, it isn't fun to play against control. so i play stax as a compromise. People dont mind playing stax because of the nature of the lock, there is a lot of interactivity with the oppenent with the lock so even when i am in control it feels like they are still playing the game. most importantly, stax doesn't have counters (which are a big no-no in casual magic, no one likes to have there big spell countered).

this in mind i play a lot of random.agro.decks.

so list

8x plains
4x flagstones
4x ancient tomb
4x city of traitors
4x mishra's factories

notes- no wastelands reason: 7/10 game opponents my does not play unbasic land

4x chrome mox ( i own chromes i dont own mox diamond and they are quite expensive)

4x Exalted Angel
4x Ghostly Prison
4X Martyr of the tabernacle

4x smokestacks
4x chalice of void
4x armageddon
4x crucible of worlds

4x trinisphere

so some explanation, thoughts and observations

i like the angels, a lot, they are often strong enough alone to beat the random.decks i see. i dont know if 3 or 4 is the right number of them though, but 2 is probably to few.

trinispheres, they are either really good and win me the game or nothing but stax fodder. I dont see complicated combo that these hose, so there uses are for when i can force some one to low mana count trinisphere shines. thinking of cutting these for o-ring.

ubimask i had these in my list for a long time, i liked what they did but eventually cut them for the 4th crucible, magus and a land

land count, from what i am reading 24+ moxes is low, i sort of get away with this by using chrome over diamond ( which also require me to run more white cards)

chrome mox, ill imprint anything but my first armageddon and creature hoser ( prison or tabernacle) sometime it hurts me, enough for me to wish they were diamonds. 4 angels, 4 prisons, 4 geddons, 4 martyrs and on off 4 oblivion rings means i can imprint the first pain free and more then that is often zero cc fodder to a stax.

Nihil Credo
06-04-2008, 04:09 PM
Moxes Diamond are effectively acceleration spells (0: play a land for free this turn). Chrome Moxes are effectively extra mana sources (0: a spell in your hand becomes a land).

Therefore, if you really have to run Chromes instead of Diamonds you should cut down on the lands. I can't guess the exact number without playtesting though, but I suggest you start with 22 lands and see if you get flooded or screwed.

hugh1130
06-04-2008, 05:03 PM
well 80$ is 80$ so

even if they are bit cheaper

so i guess the question is

is it even worth it to run chromes, they help with recovering after geddon, they dont work quite so well with crucible, but are they even conceivable to pitch a colored spell to them

how would i fit in trinisphere/ oblivion ring together, is trinisphere nessecary if your not facing combo?

uba mask in this sort of sense plays sort of the same role mabye even better then tini, making it hard to recover from pressure.

Skeggi
06-05-2008, 05:06 PM
I bought 4 Mox Diamonds for $54 on eBay. Being Dutch, having Euros and dollars being so cheap, means I almost didn't pay for these cards :)

I think they really are worth it, since they're insane with Crucible. I don't like the Chrome ones, because alot of your cards are artifacts, and lands, leaving a lot less options for your Chrome Mox...

/*
Anyway, you play casual, and you play this stax deck? That surely isn't considered casual where I come from :) Casual over here are all homebrew decks, build around some random general idea like "The entire Weatherlight crew in 1 deck". Imo, if you play casual, you shouldn't play for the win.
*/

So far the random comment ;)

In casual, you might want to try Oblivion Rings by the way.

@Misplayer: Fetchland Tendrils never stood a chance against me, so I never really saw how the deck is supposed to run, but I'll take your word for it :)

hugh1130
06-05-2008, 07:24 PM
some helpful comments

casual for me is all we play so i is our competitive format so. i play stax in casual because its control thats fun to play and doesn't use counters, i like control but no one likes playing against counters. any way

about the oblivion rings, i play them over trinisphere most of the time because i dont face combo and they often seem meh, cause they seem to lock more most of the time.

$55 is what it would cost for me to finish ( de-proxy) atleast two decks not sure if i would rather do that or buy a set of moxes. i dont know

if i play with chromes cutting the sphere i play with 12 non mox artifacts and 20 or pitch cards, my only issue is often i dont want to pitch a card to it as i rather have the effect as well though.

seems like i will have to ponnie up for the moxes though

any way, how would i talior the deck around mainly playing agro?

Nihil Credo
06-05-2008, 08:06 PM
any way, how would i talior the deck around mainly playing agro?

(I'm disregarding budget for the following tips)

For nonred aggro, you can supplement Ghostly Prison with Windborn Muses, and Magus of the Tabernacle with actual Tabernacles (put in the Tabernacles before adding Magus #4 though, since you rarely want to have two of them in play).

For red-based aggro with much burn, first of all start with four fat Exalted Angels. Some people also use Nomad Stadium - I've found it to be very unreliable, though, so make your own judgment. After that, the next step is to go up to 5 Armageddons or maybe six, since the best answer to burn that doesn't suck elsewhere is to have a Trini/Chalice@1 while they're stuck on one or less lands.

GGoober
06-05-2008, 08:34 PM
I have been playing White Stax since I started Legacy. I don't own Ravages of War, and would love to have 5-6 Geddon effects, but I have been recently trying out 2 Cataclysm instead of the Ravages. They seem to work really well as well, if in an opening hand or on the draw. Cataclysm in general forces you not to overextend, and make a few critical plays, that maximizes the effect of Catacylsm. However, there are just many cases where this card is so desired in a situation. I run 3 Oblivion Rings maindeck, for reasons I will argue as many O-ring proponents. In general, you would cataclysm only if you have one of the lock piece in play, a way to obtain stable mana after the rape, not a big problem at all for Geddon Stax, and a few other lock pieces in hand. Cataclysm would solve a lot of the problem in Enchantress/Affinity and many other decks that over-extend too quickly for Stax to handle.

Having played Stax for about a year, I realized that the key is not to play all your lock pieces like a greedy prison warden, but to know when to play them, and trick the opponent into getting trapped into a prison (unless you just have insane broken plays like 3sphere->Smokestack->Crucible.

I have just been thinking about Cataclysm as an alternative board sweeper. It functions close to an Armageddon, it kills most of your artifacts (that's why don't overextend), but at the same time. It gets rid of almost all of the permanents that we can't target and remove. After Cataclysming, we recover incredibly quick (which is the key essence of Stax over any other Legacy deck, that we recover from LandD incredibly fast and consistently) and often, would have saved a lockpiece to kill the opponent soon, or hold another prison piece that slows the opponent down as you find a way to win. The double white is the only issue with the card, but with builds that run more white sources and Angels (I run more white and 4 Angels in my Geddon Stax variant), I see it as a potential card to be discussed.

Skeggi
06-06-2008, 11:09 AM
any way, how would i talior the deck around mainly playing agro?

Stax's standard solution to aggro is Ghostly Prison effect* + Geddon effect, it basically stops all aggro, to completely nullify you use Tabernacle effect + Geddon effect.

As Nihil pointed out, Exalted Angel also helps, but you're already running 4, so you could add Blinding Angel, to add on his comment: against red aggro: Sphere of Law; more generic: Rule of Law.

You could also try land style, which works nicely with the Crucible, or Mox Diamonds, if you'd play any :cool: : Maze of Ith, Kor Haven. You're already playing the Factories, and they pwn, so that's cool, don't make the mistake of taking a Factory out for a Maze of Ith :wink:

*(I considered putting a 5th one in by splashing blue, putting in 1 Propaganda and switching a Plains for a Tundra**, but it was too much hastle: but if your meta is so much aggro, I'd go for this option over Windborn Muse)

**This would be your only source of blue mana, which you can fetch with Flagstones, so if you'd like to add Propaganda's, you need those Mox Diamonds.

Skeggi
06-12-2008, 03:16 AM
Last Saturday I played in a very small local tournament. I played against MoonStax, Eva Green, Gobbo's without the Vial and TarmoTopStifleNoughtPainterStone (yes all in one lol).

Eva Green didn't play Pernicous Deed so was a walk in the park. So were the Gobbo's.

TarmoTopStifleNoughtPainterStone: first match I beat him, second match he beats me, third match he was locked down, had nothing on board, had lifetotal of 3 and my Magus was thumping him, while the judge came by with the message "Time's up"...so a draw, that sucked lol (I became 2nd because of this, so actually I should have won the tourney...).

MoonStax totally beat my ass, but since he became last in the small tourney, it's not a deck to put on the top of your priority list. But the fact I lost to another Stax deck really bugged me. So I could use some advice. Here's the list I played with:

4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
3x Flagstone of Trokair
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
7x Plains
--+
24

3x Magus of the Tabernacle
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Armageddon
4x Smokestack
2x Exalted Angel
4x Ghostly Prison
2x Oblivion Ring
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Mox Diamond
4x Crucible of Worlds
--+
36

24
36
--+
60

Sideboard:

3x Wheel of Sun and Moon
3x Aura of Silence
3x Rule of Law
3x Suppression Field
2x Defense Grid
1x Oblivion Ring
--+
15

My advice is more concerning my sideboard: I know my deck can use small improvements here and there, but that's because I'm unable to lay my hands on certain cards ;)
My main question is: how would you construct my sideboard to be more MPV, and how to board agains MoonStax; with the old SB or the new.
What I did against Moonstax was
-4 Trinisphere
-1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
-2 Chalice of the Void

+3 Wheel of Sun and Moon (against his crucible)
+3 Aura of Silence (obviously)
+1 Oblivion Ring

He played creatureless the first game, but I knew he was the kind of guy who wants to 'trick' me in thinking he'd stay creatureless so I kept the Maguses and the Prisons, plus there wasn't really anything useful left to SB in

Nihil Credo
06-12-2008, 02:11 PM
Sticking to more or less universally accepted ideas here...

As I believe has already been mentioned, you shouldn't bother with graveyard hate in any form. I can't think of a GY engine that can't be hated more effectively with better strategies (Prison/Muse -> Ichorid, Oblivion Ring -> Crucible, Suppression Field -> Survival, etc.)

Rule of Law is also quite narrow an answer, as it only does something against Storm combo and Enchantress. Assuming the latter isn't a common sight in your tournament, Runed Halo would be more useful despite the slightly more difficult mana cost - for example, you could name Grindstone and side it in against Painter combo.

For the MD: full playsets of Flagstones and Cities are pretty much the standard now.

Gambit
06-12-2008, 02:47 PM
Sticking to more or less universally accepted ideas here...

As I believe has already been mentioned, you shouldn't bother with graveyard hate in any form. I can't think of a GY engine that can't be hated more effectively with better strategies (Prison/Muse -> Ichorid, Oblivion Ring -> Crucible, Suppression Field -> Survival, etc.)

Rule of Law is also quite narrow an answer, as it only does something against Storm combo and Enchantress. Assuming the latter isn't a common sight in your tournament, Runed Halo would be more useful despite the slightly more difficult mana cost - for example, you could name Grindstone and side it in against Painter combo.

For the MD: full playsets of Flagstones and Cities are pretty much the standard now.

There are soooo many graveyard based decks that I've decided that 3x T-Crypts are worth it, as you often will have some dead cards to pull for these matches anyhow. As far as O-ring, it seems that seal of cleansing is just better (look at the examples of what you want to hit), plus it can just sit on the board waiting for something to hit.
I also like Humility as an all around hoser.

emidln
06-12-2008, 07:48 PM
Last Saturday I played in a very small local tournament. I played against MoonStax, Eva Green, Gobbo's without the Vial and TarmoTopStifleNoughtPainterStone (yes all in one lol).

Eva Green didn't play Pernicous Deed so was a walk in the park. So were the Gobbo's.

TarmoTopStifleNoughtPainterStone: first match I beat him, second match he beats me, third match he was locked down, had nothing on board, had lifetotal of 3 and my Magus was thumping him, while the judge came by with the message "Time's up"...so a draw, that sucked lol (I became 2nd because of this, so actually I should have won the tourney...).

MoonStax totally beat my ass, but since he became last in the small tourney, it's not a deck to put on the top of your priority list. But the fact I lost to another Stax deck really bugged me. So I could use some advice. Here's the list I played with:

4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
3x Flagstone of Trokair
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
7x Plains
--+
24

3x Magus of the Tabernacle
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Armageddon
4x Smokestack
2x Exalted Angel
4x Ghostly Prison
2x Oblivion Ring
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Mox Diamond
4x Crucible of Worlds
--+
36

24
36
--+
60

Sideboard:

3x Wheel of Sun and Moon
3x Aura of Silence
3x Rule of Law
3x Suppression Field
2x Defense Grid
1x Oblivion Ring
--+
15

My advice is more concerning my sideboard: I know my deck can use small improvements here and there, but that's because I'm unable to lay my hands on certain cards ;)
My main question is: how would you construct my sideboard to be more MPV, and how to board agains MoonStax; with the old SB or the new.
What I did against Moonstax was
-4 Trinisphere
-1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
-2 Chalice of the Void

+3 Wheel of Sun and Moon (against his crucible)
+3 Aura of Silence (obviously)
+1 Oblivion Ring

He played creatureless the first game, but I knew he was the kind of guy who wants to 'trick' me in thinking he'd stay creatureless so I kept the Maguses and the Prisons, plus there wasn't really anything useful left to SB in

Moon Stax (and red stax in general) has a couple advantages here that they'll try to exploit (and that you need to neutralize) to win the game. The biggest one is going to be Goblin Welder out of the sb. This must be answered (by an ORing or some combination of Geddon effects and Tabernacle effects) or you will likely lose the game in short order. The next is going to be Ensnaring Bridge/Barbarian Ring. The major issue here is that unless you can get permanent advantage to leverage a Smokestack, you'll never be able to attack into them before they B.Ring you out of existence. TCrypt and Wheel of Sun and Moon both help out here. As with most stax mirrors, permanent advantage follows Crucible advantage, so getting those into a working order as fast as possible is directly responsible for winning most of your games.

RockOfTheFormat
06-13-2008, 01:57 AM
There are soooo many graveyard based decks that I've decided that 3x T-Crypts are worth it, as you often will have some dead cards to pull for these matches anyhow. As far as O-ring, it seems that seal of cleansing is just better (look at the examples of what you want to hit), plus it can just sit on the board waiting for something to hit.
I also like Humility as an all around hoser.

Gambit is right that if you are going to play any gy hate, then make it free hate. If nothing else you get to sac it to your stax late to hold a lock more tightly. Against dredge you only need trinisphere and ghostly prison/moat to win. Against agro you only need Prison/moat and tab/gedon to win. Against combo you use chalice/trinisphere and then tabernacle/prison effect if they token (hope to win the die roll). Other than that, no GY combo has answers for the haterade that you pack in decks.

Playing angels and rings is just asking to lose. Something about creatures in Stax really doesn't sit well with me. Trying to use rings just because people want new white cards to find play is horrible ideology. I suggest better spells.

Humility in the main is better than rings... but work better in the side leaving MB room for flat out stronger cards. 4x wasteland = win (whoever plays "draw engines" in the form of horizon canopy is losing the innevitability of decking them under the lock). People underestimate some other removal that is really strong. I still think Gambit over values a 1 timer like Seal of Clensing. When will you ever need to remove less than 2 artifacts/enchantments in a single pop? (dreadnought is not necessary to remove since moat and prison will come out turn 2/3, and you have the tabernacle in redundancy. More fun to watch them struggle to make mana enough to attack, and then lose to an armageddon)

Board into Angels, and lose rings unless you just like to play foils that are cheap and useless. One of the top decks in the format that needs little innovation, so quit trying to make NLW (next level white) and just settle in behind a proven winner. If they have answers for every bomb, then so be it, but you are piloting a proven winner and should just set up shop in the happy zone.

Nihil Credo
06-13-2008, 06:14 AM
There are soooo many graveyard based decks that I've decided that 3x T-Crypts are worth it, as you often will have some dead cards to pull for these matches anyhow.

No questions there. The problem is, are Crypts the best way to spend those 3 SB slots? In my opinion, no.


As far as O-ring, it seems that seal of cleansing is just better (look at the examples of what you want to hit), plus it can just sit on the board waiting for something to hit.

I agree, the case for Ring over Seal is not nearly as airtight as it looks. Seal has a very strong point in being better against Pernicious Deed (you don't lose a permanent when they blow it in response, and they don't get their stuff back with a second sweeper); however, I still favour Ring because it's friendlier with the mana base, with Chalice, and with Suppression Field. But the only creatures I tend to target with it are utility ones (Dark Confidant, Meddling Mage, etc.)


I also like Humility as an all around hoser.

Humility is a great card. The problem I have with it in this deck is that it's at its best against decks like Threshold or Eva Green, which you are in good shape against anyway. Against swarms like Goblins (or lesser decks like Slivers, Elves, etc.) it's worse than Windborn Muse. And against your worst matchups, like Landstill, it's fucking terrible.

I would strongly consider it for a meta full of a) Stompy decks (or any deck that quickly produces very big stuff); and b) Survival decks (fuck you, Harmonic Sliver).


Moon Stax (and red stax in general) has a couple advantages here that they'll try to exploit (and that you need to neutralize) to win the game. The biggest one is going to be Goblin Welder out of the sb. This must be answered (by an ORing or some combination of Geddon effects and Tabernacle effects) or you will likely lose the game in short order. The next is going to be Ensnaring Bridge/Barbarian Ring. The major issue here is that unless you can get permanent advantage to leverage a Smokestack, you'll never be able to attack into them before they B.Ring you out of existence. TCrypt and Wheel of Sun and Moon both help out here. As with most stax mirrors, permanent advantage follows Crucible advantage, so getting those into a working order as fast as possible is directly responsible for winning most of your games.

I agree with most of these, especially the Crucible part. Seriously, holding Crucible advantage has a ridiculously close to 1:1 correlation with winning Stax mirrors.

I would also like to add that Exalted Angels are a good way to steal wins in the Stax mirror. There's no standard Red Stax build, but either way there are good chances they'll cut down on the creature hate and focus on lock wars. Since you have tons of dead MD cards to side out, there's no reason not to bring in every threat you have.


Gambit is right that if you are going to play any gy hate, then make it free hate. If nothing else you get to sac it to your stax late to hold a lock more tightly.

I can agree with that. But I'm arguing against running hate at all.


Playing angels and rings is just asking to lose. Something about creatures in Stax really doesn't sit well with me.

We quit playing Wrath a while ago, you know. And while I can see the possibility of cutting on Exalted Angels, the Magi of the Tabernacle are pretty much printed to spec for this deck.


Trying to use rings just because people want new white cards to find play is horrible ideology. I suggest better spells.

I'm pretty sure that's not the reason.


Humility in the main is better than rings... but work better in the side leaving MB room for flat out stronger cards.

See above.


4x wasteland = win

Disagree, at least maindeck. For quite a few turns in the game, you have to pick between a) playing lock pieces and b) using Wasteland. The former is almost always the stronger play. Therefore, I advocate 2-3 Wastes main at most.

Of course, if one runs zero WW spells then he might need little enough coloured mana that he can afford the full playset anyway.


(whoever plays "draw engines" in the form of horizon canopy is losing the innevitability of decking them under the lock).

Sigh. Even once you get a full lock, it will be faster to kill with Mishra's Factory than by decking.

The reason not to play Horizon Canopy is because of the pain, not strategic considerations.


People underestimate some other removal that is really strong. I still think Gambit over values a 1 timer like Seal of Clensing. When will you ever need to remove less than 2 artifacts/enchantments in a single pop?

Crucible of Worlds
Pernicious Deed (they usually can't blow it up on the same turn)
Aether Vial

These three alone would be reason enough to board Disenchant effects.


(dreadnought is not necessary to remove since moat and prison will come out turn 2/3, and you have the tabernacle in redundancy. More fun to watch them struggle to make mana enough to attack, and then lose to an armageddon)

Dreadnought is one of the very few creatures this deck fears. Chalice@1 owns most of the decks that play it, but if it's Forced, you need to hit the *exact* tax-into-Armageddon plan or you're dead. If I didn't have any Seals or Rings to board in, I wouldn't like my chances of naturally getting that combo without any draw engine.

BTW, Kor Haven is fucking awesome against Dreadnought decks ;)

Skeggi
06-13-2008, 07:45 AM
The 2 Oblivion Rings and the fourth Smokestack are the muta slots in my MD, which I want to change to something like: 1 Ravages of War, 1 Exalted Angel, 1...something...I'm pretty happy about my manabase though: yes with only 3 flagstones and only 3 cities; if you think it's a mistake, fine, but I like it the way it is :)

Anyway about the sideboard, what I hear is:

Dump your 3 Wheel of Sun and Moon and get 3 Tormod's Crypts.
Perhaps dump the 2 Defense Grid, the O Ring and the third Rule of Law and get Seal of Cleansing, Windborn Muse (don't they die?) and perhaps the fourth Magus?

emidln
06-13-2008, 10:03 AM
I agree with most of these, especially the Crucible part. Seriously, holding Crucible advantage has a ridiculously close to 1:1 correlation with winning Stax mirrors.

Red Stax doesn't require Crucible advantage in the mirror like other Stax variants, although Moon Stax plays closer to a traditional Stax deck than other builds. Any builds that splash for Sylvan Library have the potential to go completely broken with Words enchantments. Builds can also randomly win on the back of Goblin Welder generating permanent advantage with Smokestack.


I would also like to add that Exalted Angels are a good way to steal wins in the Stax mirror. There's no standard Red Stax build, but either way there are good chances they'll cut down on the creature hate and focus on lock wars. Since you have tons of dead MD cards to side out, there's no reason not to bring in every threat you have.

Red Stax won't board out Ensnaring Bridge, which turns Exalted Angel into very expensive Smokestack fodder. The first things to get sideboarded out are Blood Moons and Trinispheres followed by Chalice of the Voids.

Nihil Credo
06-14-2008, 01:33 PM
@Emidln: I can't answer the first claim without seeing the Moon Stax list that Skeggi was talking about, or the one you're talking about - Red Stax isn't exactly a metagame deck. The advice I gave was based on generic archetype experience.

As for the second, regardless of the specific list it's probably true that White Stax has plenty of stuff to SB out (first Trini, then Prison effects, then Chalice - this one's close because of Welder) and that it often doesn't have as much to bring in (Disenchant effects, including Rings, are the only standard inclusion).


Dump your 3 Wheel of Sun and Moon and get 3 Tormod's Crypts.
Perhaps dump the 2 Defense Grid, the O Ring and the third Rule of Law and get Seal of Cleansing, Windborn Muse (don't they die?) and perhaps the fourth Magus?

My advice, and I think Silverdragon said the same thing earlier, is that you should dump the Wheels for good, and don't play Crypts either.

Defense Grids shouldn't go, if anything they should increase to 3, as they're golden in the Landstill/Threshold matchup.

My earlier points against Rule of Law still stand.

As for Windborn Muse, they don't die much more than Magus does (Lightning Bolt being the main exception). Worst case, they'll swing for two in the air instead of blocking (it's difficult to race it *and* play spells).

If you have the money for it, an extra Tabernacle is better than a fourth Magus. While two Magi are better than two Tabernacles, a Tabernacle and a Magus is better than two Magi.

RockOfTheFormat
06-14-2008, 04:22 PM
there are better disenchant effects, just ask Gambit, and if you want beaters, then play cards with effects that are rediculous. (some creatures do have great effects... not you exalted angel!)

Gambit
06-14-2008, 06:54 PM
there are better disenchant effects, just ask Gambit, and if you want beaters, then play cards with effects that are rediculous. (some creatures do have great effects... not you exalted angel!)

I believe this was directed at me because I got wrecked by "Return To Dust" in a mirror match. I'm not fully convinced that is the best disenchant effect. I may try some in the board, but I really like seal of cleansing.

The Wes
06-16-2008, 12:11 AM
Oh, so I split 1st and 2nd today in the legacy side event at the Enfield Vintage tourney. So before I forget what happened, and since I seem to have lost my note I took I thought I'd give a very quick mini report.

Deck List
4 x ancient tomb
2 x city of traitors
1 x horizon canopy
8 x plains
4 x wasteland
4 x flagstones
2 x tabernacle

2 x magus of the tabernacle
2 x windborn muse
3 x exalted angel

4 x chalice of the void
4 x ghostly prison
4 x crucible of the worlds
4 x mox diamond
4 x ghostly prison
3 x smokestack
3 x trinisphere
4 x armageddon
2 x cataclysm

Sideboard
4 x karmic justice
4 x suppression field
4 x oblivion ring
3 x defense grid

Ok, from what I remember without my notes it went something like this...

Round 1 vs. Ichorid
He wins the die roll and plays some land that makes me think he's a storm combo deck, so my turn one is chalice for 1 and 0. I quickly realize otherwise as he begins to dreadge like crazy, luckily a prison and tabernacle are able to keep him in check and we go to game 2. I sb out I think armageddons for s. fields.
Game 2 he quickly destroys me with ~35 damage worth of hasty zombie tokens.
Game 3 I get an early chalice followed by suppression field and 2 ghostly prisons, he finally gives when i have 2 prisons and 2 muses up and running.

Round 2 vs. Merfolk
Game one has a quick fish with a jitte kick my ass in short order. I sb'd in s. fields taking out my smokestacks.
Game two has me getting a turn 1 trini followed by turn 2 and 3 windborn muses and he scoops.
Grame three has me getting an early angel that goes the distance with the help of a prison followed by a cataclysm.

Round 3 vs. Survival (Di)
Don't remember much about this one except that I'm pretty sure I lost quickly. So, out go the chalices and smokestacks, in come 4 karmic justice and 3 s. fields.
Game 2 goes well for him until I play my magus, I call it a magus, he comments on it being a magus, then untaps and draws thinking it was a muse. The game went quickly to my favor after that.
Game 3 has him getting an early bob while i get a couple prisons out, a karmic justic, an s. field. I begin to wastelock him as bob goes the distance taking his life down by 5's a couple of times.

Round 4 vs. r/g/u thresh with sea drakes
At this point I'm the only one in the tourney 3-0 and will be in the top 4. Game one quickly goes against me as 4/5's and some untargetable 3/3's dominate me.
After the first game I realize that its after 6 on Father's Day and I still haven't called my dad to wish him one. So I decide to conceed the match and be the nice son my parents always wished I was.

Top 4. Rematch vs. Di and Survival
Knowing that his is the one deck that I really didn't want to play today I was excited to see that I get to play it all over again!
Game 1 I get out an early crucible and he walks into an armageddon followed by my land for the turn of a tabernacle. Out go the trinippheres, chalices, and smokestacks, in come the o rings, s fields, and karmic justices.
Game 2 I'm able to get a (i think) turn 2 attacking flipped exalted angel. The angel keeps my life total up while my karmics and s fields keep survival in its place as both my angel and his bob take his life down to zero over 3 turns.

1st and 2nd were split so I walked away with 2 nice tundra's to complete my playset.

Ok, first off I'd just want to say that the trini as a 3 of was only because I couldn't get ahold of a 4th and the 2 muses were a random last minute choice. The muses were great for me all day and I'm glad I used them, being able to run more than 4 prison effects just helps so much against decks like ichorid. I've always been iffy and back and forth on karmic justic but this has pretty much sold me on them for a permanent sb slot. Also the cataclysms worked out quite well throughout the day. I can definately see running them most of the time in at least at the very least a sb slot, especially with no access to ravages of war. Ok, its late, and I'm tired of typing.

Skeggi
06-16-2008, 11:57 AM
Game 2 goes well for him until I play my magus, I call it a magus, he comments on it being a magus, then untaps and draws thinking it was a muse. The game went quickly to my favor after that.


The hidden powers of the Windborn Muse! This is brilliant :laugh: I'll try them now for sure! :)

Just wondering though: how did Horizon Canopy work out for you MD? Did you really need the card-drawing, or were you more like; 'I wish I had a City of Traitors now.'

The Wes
06-16-2008, 01:57 PM
Overall I'd at least go up to 3 city of traitors, but I've liked horizon canopy. This tourney I only drew it once and I think it cause me 1 damage total. But with workstation games and in testing its won me several games being able to draw 2 a turn mid to late game. I think the number of times its killed me with pain don't compare to the number of times that the extra draws have helped me. Over all I'd like to remove 2 plains and add in one more city and a kor keep. Nothing like being able to negate their one attacking goofy.

I'm also liking the synergy between muse and cataclysm. Nothing like having two prison effects after the cataclysm with them only at 1 land. Oh and another possitive thing about muse is that it almost always gets by counterballance, especially since thresh often tries to keep a 3cc spell on top when I'm playing againts them to stop my crucibles/trini/prison/o rings.

Shawon
06-16-2008, 10:57 PM
Does Beseech the Queen have any potential in AStax? :6: isn't too hard to achieve, with Cities and Tombs in the deck, and it can probably be :4::b: due to Mox Diamond :) Perhaps 1 Beseech, so if you're stuck in the long game (which can happen) you have the versatility of choosing either an Exalted Angel or Armageddon (EDIT: or Crucible), either of which can end the game. I think I'll try a singleton Beseech the Queen and let you guys know what I think about it, but I just wanted to throw that card out there.

Nihil Credo
06-17-2008, 06:47 AM
Does Beseech the Queen have any potential in AStax? :6: isn't too hard to achieve, with Cities and Tombs in the deck, and it can probably be :4::b: due to Mox Diamond :) Perhaps 1 Beseech, so if you're stuck in the long game (which can happen) you have the versatility of choosing either an Exalted Angel or Armageddon (EDIT: or Crucible), either of which can end the game. I think I'll try a singleton Beseech the Queen and let you guys know what I think about it, but I just wanted to throw that card out there.
Interesting idea; I think it's a long shot that it works (wouldn't play E. Angel if it couldn't be morphed), but not impossible. A more conservative option is to SB it to provide those Armageddons 5-6 against control decks, without paying for Ravages of War.

Skeggi
06-17-2008, 07:31 AM
You have to reveal your card: I hate it when my opponent knows a Geddon is coming.

Misplayer
06-17-2008, 08:49 AM
You have to reveal your card: I hate it when my opponent knows a Geddon is coming.

Won't most opponents assume a 'Geddon is coming as soon as they see Flagstones hit the table (i.e. once they recognize what you're playing)? Even if you spend a turn tutoring one up, that gives them chance to hold back one land, or at best cast something like Life from the Loam in preparation for an Armageddon. Regardless, I'm not a fan of BTQ in Stax just because it's usually a late game card, and this deck doesn't need a lot of late game help except for when you get your board wiped and go into topdeck mode, but you've usually lost at that point anyway.

Speaking of which, does this deck have any answers to Deed? The best I've come up with is locking them before they can play and activate in the same turn, and then hitting it with O-Ring. Also, could the emergence of more Deed-based control decks (It's the Fear, Vorosh Landstill, on top of stuff like The Rock) significantly weaken Stax in the format?

Skeggi
06-17-2008, 09:01 AM
Speaking of which, does this deck have any answers to Deed? The best I've come up with is locking them before they can play and activate in the same turn, and then hitting it with O-Ring. Also, could the emergence of more Deed-based control decks (It's the Fear, Vorosh Landstill, on top of stuff like The Rock) significantly weaken Stax in the format?

Mainboard GeddonStax hardly has an answer to deed; other than you've just pointed out, and most even don't play O-ring mainboard.

Deed is perhaps the card this decks fears most; so often people have stuff against it in their sideboard: Seal of Cleansing, Aura of Silence, Karmic Justice and perhaps even Oblivion Ring; however; a deck with Pernicious Deed always has Krosan Grip in the sideboard, which provides another extra challenge.
Some people consider Academy Ruins against this; but this would just be a 1 of and therefor not stable enough to my likings, so this is the bit where I'm lost :)