[Deck] Armageddon Stax

[The Wes]

MB there isn't much you can do unless you are one of the few that have o rings main decked. SB i've been having fun with Karmic Justice. Its not like everyone isn't sb'ing in there grips and other artifact/enchant destruction in game 2 and 3.

[Shawon]

Won't most opponents assume a 'Geddon is coming as soon as they see Flagstones hit the table (i.e. once they recognize what you're playing)? Even if you spend a turn tutoring one up, that gives them chance to hold back one land, or at best cast something like Life from the Loam in preparation for an Armageddon. Regardless, I'm not a fan of BTQ in Stax just because it's usually a late game card, and this deck doesn't need a lot of late game help except for when you get your board wiped and go into topdeck mode, but you've usually lost at that point anyway.


I don't think the reveal clause is that big a deal. As said by the guy above, most opponents can probably see a Armageddon coming. Also, it might not even make a difference anyhow if they can't do anything about it.

I think Beseech the Queen is just useful simply because it can fetch anything in your deck easily except Exalted Angel. Also, keep in mind it can fetch your toolbox lands, like Tabernacle and Kor Haven.

I feel like Beseech the Queen fits into Stax simply because it helps you avoid depending on topdecking to win. You're not always going to fetch Armageddon, and you don't have a recursive draw engine (I'm trying out Horizon Canopy, as well) to get your specific card in time.

EDIT: Keep in mind I'm only advocating a single Beseech the Queen. Anyways, I'll continue testing it and let you guys know about it. And Horizon Canopy.

[Skeggi]

Wouldn't you want to play 1 scrubland instead of a plains then?

[hugh1130]

no reason to not play 4 scrub lands if your going to splash black

however, the only thing that beseech does that enlightened tutor does not is fetch armageddon, which in all honesty could seal a game, ignoring geddon however, the cost of beseech makes it only a cantrip better then mystical tutor.


Won't most opponents assume a 'Geddon is coming as soon as they see Flagstones hit the table (i.e. once they recognize what you're playing)? Even if you spend a turn tutoring one up, that gives them chance to hold back one land, or at best cast something like Life from the Loam in preparation for an Armageddon. Regardless, I'm not a fan of BTQ in Stax just because it's usually a late game card, and this deck doesn't need a lot of late game help except for when you get your board wiped and go into topdeck mode, but you've usually lost at that point anyway.

most players wont over extend into stax any how, and when ever i played it has been into a smokestack to keep up a perm count and that is the senario where geddon is best.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

however, the only thing that beseech does that mystical tutor does not is fetch armageddon, which in all honesty could seal a game but when you fetch a spell like that, beseech is only a cantrip better then mystical tutor.I assume you mean Enlightened Tutor. In which case, Beseech is better because is can grab both Armageddon and Exalted Angel. It may only be able to grab two more things, but those are both back breaking. Armageddon breaks what the deck attempts to bend and Angel outraces aggro and ends the game.

[hugh1130]

I assume you mean Enlightened Tutor. In which case, Beseech is better because is can grab both Armageddon and Exalted Angel. It may only be able to grab two more things, but those are both back breaking. Armageddon breaks what the deck attempts to bend and Angel outraces aggro and ends the game.

edited my post some to be more clear on what i actually wanted to stay, but on your points

so ill give another advantage to beseech in fetching tabernacle land, as that smash agro perhaps more then angle

on geddon however, in this case the singleton copy of beseech ( which was being suggested) might be better served as a 5th/6th copy of geddon/ravages of war. when your in a pinch for geddon to seal the same, you often have other lock pieces down that would do this for you sans geddon. if your looking for geddon to save your ass, the fact that it is cost prohibitive to cast beseech and geddon on the same term hurts.

take this all with a grain of salt, as i have not been abel to play test beseech at all.

[Shawon]

Also, keep in mind Crucible of Worlds is also a relevant card to fetch. That's the advantage of Beseech the Queen over a 6th Armageddon, since you don't always want to fetch Armageddon. And it can fetch Wasteland for Crucible+Wasteland lock.

[Illissius]

If you have the luxury of spending six (six!) mana to not affect the game state in any way, haven't you won?

[Shawon]

If you have the luxury of spending six (six!) mana to not affect the game state in any way, haven't you won?
No, not really. Stax doesn't have a recursive draw engine. So, even if you have six (six!) mana, you're still going to have to rely on topdecking if you want to get that specific card you need to win the game, if it's not in your hand.

[Nihil Credo]

If you have the luxury of spending six (six!) mana to not affect the game state in any way, haven't you won?
Not necessarily. Against control, you'll often spend several turns in draw-go mode seeing who draws their trump first - you with Armageddon, or them with Pernicious Deed.

[Skeggi]

Probably Horizon Canopy does a better job at being a draw engine instead of Beseech the Queen.

[Shawon]

Probably Horizon Canopy does a better job at being a draw engine instead of Beseech the Queen.
Well, I didn't say that Beseech the Queen was a draw engine. But yes, you're right in that regard. Bottom line: be it a tutor (Beseech the Queen), or recursive draw engine (Horizon Canopy + Crucible of Worlds), the deck needs a route besides topdecking to get its specific card. I could compare the two cards, but that's not my point. My point is that either card should be tested, inclusive.

[Skeggi]

When going for Horizon Canopy, you could opt making it more than a 1-of and then also add Exploration. Just a thought.

[The Wes]

The being green and costing one mana seems less than stellar. Also thats a lot of pain with 2 of them. From testing so far 1 canopy has seemed like the right number, but only time will tell.

[Shawon]

I think Weathered Wayfarer fits better into the deck than Exploration, since it's white and fetches any land you want. Then again, I don't even think Wayfarer may fit into the deck, since it's kinda slow.

[Skeggi]

I think Weathered Wayfarer fits better into the deck than Exploration, since it's white and fetches any land you want. Then again, I don't even think Wayfarer may fit into the deck, since it's kinda slow.

And just like Exploration, a 1 mana card, as The Wes pointed out: not optimal...ah well, I was sleeping a bit when I made the suggestion ;)

[The Wes]

Though i would love to try out landtax in its place with maybe scrollrack if it was ever unbanned. I did try wayfarer out at one time, but quickly saw like you said it was too slow and that whole 1cc thing just sucks.

Just a note, Cataclysm as a 2 of instead of ravages of war has a been a crap load of fun. It also makes running windborn more fun...

[Shawon]

Though i would love to try out landtax in its place with maybe scrollrack if it was ever unbanned. I did try wayfarer out at one time, but quickly saw like you said it was too slow and that whole 1cc thing just sucks.

Just a note, Cataclysm as a 2 of instead of ravages of war has a been a crap load of fun. It also makes running windborn more fun...

That;s funny you mention Land Tax, I was thinking about responding to the Exploration idea by saying that Land Tax would probably be the only 1 cc enchantment worth MDing. But that seemed irrelevant to say cuz Land Tax is banned.

Even funnier, ironically, Land Tax was the reason I started playing with White Stax. I'm sorta "new" to Magic, and I never played or faced Land Tax, so I was curious. I thought the best deck to use it would be White Stax, so I made a White Stax with Land Tax, I think I called it Land Stax (I know, clever). I kinda gave up on the idea since I couldn't test it (imagine going turn 1 Land Tax in a 'Legacy Serious' game haha). Then I just picked Taxless Stax (hahaha), I mean White Stax, and here I am, trying to join the discussion.

[Skeggi]

Well, beside the point of being a 1cc card etc. Wayfarer and Land Tax do very different things than Exploration. Exploration is a real nice addition to Crucible and Smokestack and I think it would be a nice effect to have, but might result in win more.

[Shawon]

Any potential in Stax?

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/Eventide/images/qad8926jck_EN.jpg

I'd like to say that I try to give new cards the benefit of the doubt, but I'm kinda struggling with this card. I mean, my gut is just saying "why bother?" This card would probably be auto-include it was 1 or 2 CC, since it can help your early game should you be mana screwed. Alas, it's 4 CC. On top of that, your lands are RFTFG when Endless Horizons is bounced, let alone destroyed.

Off the top of my head the best scenario to play Endless Horizons would be playing it the turn before you play Armageddon or Ravages of War.

The ability is useful, but is it useful by the time you have 4 mana? Ehh, not sure. I'll leave that question to the more experienced players in this thread.

What do you guys think of Endless Horizons?

The one cool thing is that it can fetch Mistveil Plains, but that's because I love that card.

Speaking of which, disregarding the 'only if you have two or more white permanents' clause, is Mistveil Plains' ability particularly useful in White Stax? You can only put cards on the bottom, so you would have to use some shuffle effect (Flagstones?) to increase the chances of drawing it. What do you guys think? Should it happen that Endless Horizons makes the cut, I think it might be possible for Mistveil Plains to be used fairly (we have Horizons, Exalted Angel, Magus, Muse, and Ghostly Prison as white permanents).

[Sanguine Voyeur]

It doesn't seem that good. First off, what would you drop for it? White Stax is crowded with other cards waiting. It's not particularly amazing card advantage, and it won't completely empty the library of lands. It's a terrible top deck and does nothing to disrupt the opponent.

[The Wes]

And I can just imagine having it gripped after removing all the plains from my deck. Its not like every deck doesn't sb in enchant/artifact removal. Besides, don't you want your plains in your deck so you can search them with flagstones and thus be able to keep your stack at 2?

[Skeggi]

Any potential in Stax?

Simple answer: no. All the 'benefits' it has are meaningless in Stax.

[Hopo]

It is more like a SB card against Armageddon for any deck playing white.

[The Wes]

But then what decks are really played that use that much white, and don't have a better solution to armageddon than a 4cc enchant?

[THEchubbymuffin]

It is more like a SB card against Armageddon for any deck playing white.


They need 4 mana to cast the thing. Tanglewire, Smokestack, and armaggadeon itself stop that enchantment.

[The Wes]

If you are still playing tanglewire in your stax list, I'll like to say please stop now. Perhaps there is a 12 step progam to help. We don't have the massive amounts of free permanents like the moxes that type 1 has and any deck thats able to drop out quick permanents leaves us in the dust while our wires slow us down.

[fearphage]

Worst case scenario: Endless Horizons is a white, more expensive mana severance. I believe it is too situational to warrant more than 2 slots. However, testing will tell the story. It does nothing to the state of the game on its own. It is not a threat itself although it does increase the likelihood of you drawing threats. On the contrary, it does allow you to play 2 lands/permanents per turn (one from EH and one from hand/graveyard) or a guaranteed stream of permanents when it is allowed to remain in play. Pecularly often, i want to play multiple permanents in a turn to maintain/counteract smokestack effects but I hit mana pockets or draw diamonds.

I've tested Mistveil Plains and it was underwhelming. It is rare that i need to recur threats and sending them to the bottom of the library is not fantastic. If it sent them to the top, it would be an auto-include. I run it as a 1-of that I have yet to fetch from a flagstone.

[The Wes]

How does Endless Horizons allow you to play more than one land a turn? Doesn't it just put a planes into your hand? Still just one land. Also it negates your flagstones. Yeah, it could help clear out some plains, but a lot of your lands are the 8 (or so) 2 mana ones, wastelands, flagstones, and maybe factories, kor keep, or horizon canopy. Thats still a decent bit of land to have clumped together. I'm just not seeing how EH helps the deck.

[fearphage]

Doesn't it just put a planes into your hand? Still just one land.Oh, that's what happens when you read the card. I see now. I read "into play". Putting them into your hand makes this card even worse.

[The Wes]

oh, agreed, i'd love to try it out if it put them direcly into play, that could be fun in several decks.

[Skeggi]

Oh, that's what happens when you read the card. I see now. I read "into play". Putting them into your hand makes this card even worse.

Lol, anyway, as I suggested earlier, for your problems you could try stuff like Exploration, but as mentioned earlier, it's still a bit silly with the 1cc G cost :)

[Bane of the Living]

Ok this one took a while to catch my attention..

Augery Adept

Lifegain

Card Draw

Win Condition

Bargain price of :1::w::w:

[Skeggi]

Interesting. What would you switch it for?

[The Wes]

The only problem I have with him is how often will he really hit the other player? No evasion does suck a bit. The card draw and the life gain would be nice though.

[Misplayer]

The only problem I have with him is how often will he really hit the other player? No evasion does suck a bit. The card draw and the life gain would be nice though.

Agreed. If your attacks are getting through you likely have dominant board position anyway. At first glance it looks win-more but testing is warranted.

[Bane of the Living]

Agreed. If your attacks are getting through you likely have dominant board position anyway. At first glance it looks win-more but testing is warranted.

Please, we play Mishras Factory because it can attack the opponent for 10 turns and win the game. So having evasion isn't that important sometimes. You have O-ring to remove goyf. Obviously the only draw back to a card like this would be it's stature.

The card draw is more than just good. It fits the small void in the deck's game. The only games stax really loses are the ones where it topdecks miserably one card a turn while the opponent recovers from your devestating plays. Augery is one of very few white/brown ways for the deck to draw cards.

[Gambit]

I think Adept just isn't right, it may draw a card other wise it's a 2/2 for 3 with WW in the cost. You also will have to pay tabernacle upkeep on it often. It doesn't have a big butt, so it's a bad blocker. Factory is good because it's recurring with crucible, you don't have to pay for it during your upkeep and taps for mana. I'd just rather play another lock piece than adept. But I'm glad people are still trying to incorporate new cards.

[Bane of the Living]

Maybe its worth trying still? Lifegain and card draw are the two parts the deck needed to work on and this put's them on a card that actually can't be Krosan Gripped for once. No look at it again and look how good it is against Ancient Grudge and Serenity.

Sometimes the deck needs a healthy balance on perms. Just because you have Magus doesn't mean you can't pay 2 on your upkeep.

Can you imagine playing geddon with one of these out?

Here is my Augery list.

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Flagstones
4 Wasteland
7 Plains
1 Crystal Vein
4 Mox

4 Geddon
3 Augery
4 Suppression Field
3 Oblivion Ring

4 Chalice
4 3sphere
4 Crucible
3 Smokestack

Im dropping Ghostly Prison. Its bad now. Less goblins, more Dreadnoughts. Ichorid matchup is good enough. I think now is the time to bust Suppression Field back into action. Countertop is everywhere. Fetchlands are asking for punishment.

[The Wes]

We pretty much only use factory to attack for the win when we have the lock in place, so then do we really need the life/card draw?

I think dropping prisons is a bad idea. It hurts the power of armageddon. One of the keys is to be able to armageddon then have them prison locked, or unable to pay for upkeep costs. Or just sit behind both prison and tabernacle making them over extend. I do agree on the suppression field being great in the current meta and I'm alway up for have new ideas tried in the deck. But, I wouldn't get rid of the prisons/tabernacle effects completely unless you are pretty much just playing against combo or muc.

[Skeggi]

Countertop is everywhere.

Is Countertop a problem for you? Most decks playing that engine are out of our curve, plus they already have problems with chalice@1 and trinisphere. S.Fields would be win more against alot of decks which aren't really a problem to begin with. Great sideboard card though.

[Bane of the Living]

Is Countertop a problem for you? Most decks playing that engine are out of our curve, plus they already have problems with chalice@1 and trinisphere. S.Fields would be win more against alot of decks which aren't really a problem to begin with. Great sideboard card though.

I like to stuff 8 fetchlands and Senseis Top is what I mean by that. Its not that Counterbalance itself is a problem at all.

You cant call Suppression Field win more when it's only two mana. It fits the curve of the deck and saves you from a resolved Vial. I dont know if you noticed, but at Off the Wall Games recent tournament of 49 people there were 3 geddon stax decks played. None of them made top 8. There were 3 Survival Decks and they all made top eight.

Survival along with Landstill are the decks worst matchups. Suppression Field helps against both.

[nicolasbol]

Hey guys,

I finished 3d in Hamilton:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=246833#post246833

What i learned from this thread was priceless, You guys rule :D !

Thanks.

[Skeggi]

It was really pleasant to play WhiteStax because of the amazing synergy of the cards. Whatever you draw, except maybe Trinisphere, all other cards interact with each other, it was amazing.
One thing I did not like was the Mox diamond. If not in the opening hand. it's a lost draw turn.

Really? 3sphere is part of the lock, and otherwise it's nice Staxfood ofcourse :)

The Mox is a nice draw; when you have crucible and stax out, and you sac a land to stax every turn, you can't play land from your hand, Mox gives this land still a use.

I guess my point is, the synergy in GeddonStax, WhiteStax, Angelstax, however you want to call it, might even be better than you thought :)

Good job on the tourny (except for rolling the dice, you suck at that), nice report :)

[Hunter245]

So is anyone running Supression Field?, I've been thinking of mainboarding it, or is it simply sb material? Althought mb you can only get it down first turn with mox and a land. Just curious On your thoughts. It also seems to me that most winning lists seems to run enlightined tutor, or maybe I eschewing the results, although bad synergy with chalice, I strictly thought it was bad, but i don't know exactly.

[Skeggi]

It also seems to me that most winning lists seems to run enlightined tutor

Oh? Any links?

[The Wes]

Yeah, would love to see those lists, I don't know of any successful w stax decks running enlightened tutor. I run s field as a 4 of in my sb for a few matchups.

[Gambit]

If I was going to play 1 drops it would be SDT, enlightened tutor doesn't seem worth it in a list that should be running basically all 4 ofs

[f|i[p]]

OK... I have been out for months in magic and my decks have been gathering dust...There is finally a tournament here after a long time this coming august.

I see there hasn't been much change for geddon stax, except some sideboard options.

Is tormods crypt really needed in the sideboard? I can't seem to make up my mind since Im trying to fit in karmic justice and supression fileds in...

[Skeggi]

;247375']
Is tormods crypt really needed in the sideboard? I can't seem to make up my mind since Im trying to fit in karmic justice and supression fileds in...

Well, there is debate wether or not GY hate belongs in your SB, because we have a ton of other options against decks that utilize their GY.

There's also a debate wether or not S.field should be mainboarded or not.

So basically, at least, you could say S.Field > Tormod's Crypt. :cool:

[Hunter245]

I thought their was a couple more. but here are some of them.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16342

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16342

I really thought their was more. I guess i was clicking on the sam edeclklists

[Skeggi]

Those 2 are the same deck, with a very different input than WhiteStax. Pendrell Mists, Lotus Petals, only 1 Smokestack. Looks to me the reason he became second that tourney was because he didn't run WhiteStax

[Iron_Blood]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=130235872841

Anyone need some ravages of war?

[Skeggi]

Such a heavenly sight. Well, I got 1 English boostermint and I'm happy with it. Don't need 4 more, lol :)

[The Wes]

Who needs Ravages? Cataclysm has been amazing for me so far. I'm currently running 4 armageddons and 2 cataclysm, but plan on upping it to 3 cataclysms.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

So is anyone running Supression Field?, I've been thinking of mainboarding it, or is it simply sb material? Althought mb you can only get it down first turn with mox and a land. Just curious On your thoughts. It also seems to me that most winning lists seems to run enlightined tutor, or maybe I eschewing the results, although bad synergy with chalice, I strictly thought it was bad, but i don't know exactly.

I Plahy stax like it is goin out of style. I have 2 suppression fields in my mainboard and 2 in my sideboard. I thinkin of puttin the other 2 in there. Its real good against a lot of decks.

[Skeggi]

On a side note: take a look at my new funky Geddons!
clicky (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7544&page=42)

[f|i[p]]

Ward of Bones 6
Artifact Rare
Each opponent who controls more creatures than you can't play creature cards. The same is true for artifacts, enchantments and lands.

I think this card has some testing potential at the least...its quite slow, but has the ability to limit your opponents permanents..

[Skeggi]

I don't think that card will stop anything: if the casting cost was lower it would, but by the time you can play it, you should have a softlock already.

[Nihil Credo]

Ward of Bones @ Creatures: Reminds of Crawlspace. Zero synergy with taxing/Tabernacle/Kor Haven/evasive lifegain. Awful, like Crawlspace.

@ Artifacts and Enchantments: Most decks only need one in play at the time. Useless

@ Lands: Kinda cool post-armageddon.


Price tag: six mana.

Verdict: Not even worth testing, at least as far as I'm concerned.

[f|i[p]]

yeah your right, its just too slow to be worth playing it...and almost useless..

[The Wes]

Ok, so I'm playing this in the source online tourney and at Syracuse on the 19th. Any suggestions on a MB and SB? I know what I plan to run and will probably update this this evening when I get home. But does anyone suggest any new inovations or just tried and true solid builds? I'm going mono white, I don't have access to ravages, and I have two Tabernacles. Any last min ideas?

[Curby]

I note that the Augury Adept list lacks any Angels. Wasn't attacking with a 4/5 Lifelinked Flier on turn 2 one of the more powerful plays that you want to keep? Related to this is the fact that Prison and other slow control decks often go to time in timed tourneys, and you're losing your biggest beater.

For those using Cataclysm, how do you select what to keep? Alternately, if your opening grip has a Cat instead of a 'geddon, how do you play differently? It seems that Cat should be much worse because we depend on our artifacts and enchantments, and having us lose two artifacts and one enchantment can be worse than the opponent having to lose a creature and two lands. Obviously it's working for you, but I'm just wondering how.

[Skeggi]

For those using Cataclysm, how do you select what to keep? Alternately, if your opening grip has a Cat instead of a 'geddon, how do you play differently? It seems that Cat should be much worse because we depend on our artifacts and enchantments, and having us lose two artifacts and one enchantment can be worse than the opponent having to lose a creature and two lands. Obviously it's working for you, but I'm just wondering how.

I imagine all you need to keep after a cataclysm is crucible. Whatever your opponent keeps is irrelevant, since he's down for a while because you keep your Windborn Muse or Magus of the Tabernacle and a Ghostly Prison. That should keep them quiet for a bit.

As for tips for MB and SB, people are divided about oblivion ring being a MB card or a SB card. I think, if you run over 4 geddon effects; meaning either with ravages or cataclysm, you should run the ring SB. It's better to lock them out all at once with Trinispheres and Prison effects. I also think this is a better strategy than running the rings MB.

So if you can't get Ravages, get Cataclysm.

The Tabernacle land is great and has proven greater worth to me than the Magus in many games; except ofcourse where I needed a blocker. But most of the time there are enough Prison effects, or I just wanted to play it after a geddon. I think running 2 Tabernacle lands and 2 Maguses should be fine. I myself am running 1 land and 3 magus (I only have 1 land). You could also opt for doing that and running the other land in your sideboard.

You might want to add 2 Windborn Muse on top of your Prisons, I am now and am really happy with them. They also stop Trygon Predator, which really kills you otherwise.

Suppression Field is, I think a sideboard card, but some people think you should run them MB. I don't because they lack synergy with Chalice and Trinisphere. I run 3 in sideboard myself, but running 4 might be better.

Further in my sideboard I have: Oblivion Ring, Karmic Justice, Aura of Silence and Defense Grid. All for pretty obvious reasons; the Karmic Justice and Aura of Silence are mainly there against deeds, which are obviously, Staxbans.

And for the rest: I think the records show that the more traditional Staxlists make it to the top more often. No silly things as Horizon Canopy, Nomad Stadium or splash blue and play Academy Ruins. No less than 3 Smokestack, no less than 3 Flagstones (4 is good), no less than 7 2-mana land, with Ancient Tomb > City of Traitors. At least play 6 basic plains. 2 or 3 Angels. I guess the rest is all pretty standard.

[The Wes]

I've been advocating and runing windborn muse (much to the confused looks form others) for about 2 years now. Its come in and out of the deck, but for the most part I'm happier with it in and plan to have it as a 2 of. Off the top of my head I think my current list is:

4 x Ancient Tomb
3 x City of Traitors
4 x Flagstones
4 x Wasteland
2 x The Tabernacle of Pendral Vale (sp?)
1 x Horizon Canopy
1 x Kor haven
6 x Plains

4 x Mox Diamond
4 x Chalice of the Void
4 x Crucible of the Worlds
3 x Trinisphere
4 x Ghostly Prison
4 x Armageddon
2 x Cataclysm
3 x Smokestack

2 x Windborn Muse
3 x Exalted Angel
2 x Magus of the Tabernacle

Sideboard
1 x Trinisphere
4 x S. Field
4 x Karmic Justice
3 x Pithing Needle
3 x Oblivion Ring

I've found that while not that traditional 1 Kor haven and Horizon Canopy have been more than holding their own. Kor haven especially since after you cataclysm'd and they still get up to 2 mana to attack you can keep that loan goffy or 12/12 trampler at bay. Horizon Canopy has also help my mid-late game by allowing me to get to that final piece I need to finish it. I've never considered decking to be that viable of an option in a 50 min round.

What do I keep after a cataclysm? Well, depends on the hand, simply having an angel and a trinisphere is pretty nice in most cases. Also you can often end a cataclysm with still being able to produce 3-4 mana on your next turn without even having a crucible with the diamonds/flagstones/2 mana lands. This allows you to pretty much still drop anything in your hand that next turn. Also with being able to keep a muse and prison, having 2 prison effects post cataclysm with them at 1 land is still pretty sweet.

[jazzykat]

What do I keep after a cataclysm? Well, depends on the hand, simply having an angel and a trinisphere is pretty nice in most cases. Also you can often end a cataclysm with still being able to produce 3-4 mana on your next turn without even having a crucible with the diamonds/flagstones/2 mana lands. This allows you to pretty much still drop anything in your hand that next turn. Also with being able to keep a muse and prison, having 2 prison effects post cataclysm with them at 1 land is still pretty sweet.

The Wes pretty much sums it up.

As to the statement about it being much worse...I disagree. I will agree to the fact that it plays very differently than Armageddon, IMO to be really effective you need 1 creature ala Magus or an Angel and either a 3sphere, or sandbag a land or two and keep a chalice set on 1 to stop swords, and cantrips (where applicable). Or keep a crucible. The alternative is if you are staring down a lot of creatures because you rarely have 1 if any out it acts like an almost WoG.

If you have the game locked up you don't need it as the opponent is already in trouble. Cataclysm tends to pull an out of control game back towards even. Where as if you are getting the tar beaten out of you, unless you have prisons or a Magus out, Armageddon isn't going to save you. Against a control deck w/o a deployed win condition then Armageddons are more desirable provided you sandbagged land, have a mox out and/or have flagstones on the field and have been able to get 2 or more artifacts of value on the field.

So....they both have their places and I am beginning to think a 3/3 split may be the way to go in a varied meta.

[Curby]

As to the statement about it being much worse...I disagree.

Cataclysm tends to pull an out of control game back towards even.

Yeah, a traditionally troublesome matchup for Stax was Elves. They are so fast and have so much critter mana that they can not only pay for Tabernacle but send an attack at you every now and then through your Prisons. Cat solves the problem in a way that Geddon never could.

I didn't actually think that Cat is worse, as it obviously works for Wes et. al. However, I just didn't really see why it would shine. I'm starting to understand now. :cool:

Last Friday you said that you were a bit of a Stax enthusiast, so I was waiting for you to post. Do you have a list you like?

[jazzykat]

Last Friday you said that you were a bit of a Stax enthusiast, so I was waiting for you to post. Do you have a list you like?

I like lost causes and waste my time with a deck that is never going to be consistent enough for me to live with. That said grab a recent winning list and start testing away as I have no idea what is the best right now. However, you must learn to use the Cataclysm or shell out $$$ for Ravages of War. I am about to try UR stacker which I believe has been proven to be a bad idea...

When I don't play for DCI points I tend to play what I like and do Timmy/Johnny things.

[Skeggi]

4 x Wasteland
1 x Horizon Canopy
1 x Kor haven
3 x Trinisphere


Well, I understand you like your list the way it is, but imo, Trinisphere is one of the stronger cards in this deck, and I consider running less than 4 as a mistake (you could drop Angel #3 for this, if you follow up with the Manland-thing I'm pointing out below).

Also; I'd run -1 Wasteland, -1 Horizon Canopy and -1 Kor Haven. I know you said you liked them, and for reasonable reasons, but I really think you should put Mishra's Factory in these slots; they also stop a runaway Goyf. And the 12/12 trampler never really gets through because of Chalice@1 or 3sphere.

For the rest your list looks very solid. Good luck! :)

Edit: now I think of it; you're running Cataclysm, and if anything is a goyf-feeder...so I guess keep the Kor haven :)

[Patrick]

This list took first at a 23 player event, not that impressive, but it did the best it could:


4 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond

3 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Exalted Angel

4 Ghostly Prison
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Moat

1 Cataclysm
4 Armageddon

3 Flagstones of Trokair
6 Plains
1 Kor Haven
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter

Sideboard:

3 Aura of Silence
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Defense Grid
3 Damping Matrix
2 Karmic Justice
2 Tormod's Crypt.


I'll explain some of the choices.

Smokestack: A lot of people aren't using this. I don't know why, with Crucible against a deck that can't pump out an obnoxious amount of permanents (like goblins), this can lock them down. If you have Flagstones too you don't lose any board position.

The single oblivion ring was two, but some changes got made and I believe it was cut for Cataclysm.

Cataclysm: While this card never got played, the pilot told me he was happy to see it every time he drew it.

Kor Haven: Sometimes it only takes 1 Tombstalker to kill you, Moat and Ghostly Prison or not.

Moat: Amazing.

Ghost Quarter: A lot of combo decks and Threshold only run 2 or 3 basics, with Crucible this card can go a long way. It can also take away the basic that produces the color they'll need most.

Sideboard:

Aura of Silence: It's really really good, better than Disenchant. It stops a lot of combo decks, comes in against Aether Vial and Dreadnought (popular in my metagame), and stops random other stuff.

Damping Matrix: A lot of combo hate, stops the Goblin Aether Vial and is also good against random problems.

Karmic Justice: I've brought it in a bunch but never saw it when I wanted it. It comes in against deed.

Defense Grid: I almost never board this card in, even against Force of Will. Maybe one day I'll try it.

Crypt: Just a precaution, it doesn't really do anything.

Sphere of Resistance: Came in against 2 land Belcher the other day, won the game. It's pretty good against Goblins and Threshold too. It's kind of redundant with Trinisphere, but in any kind of combo matchup you really need to lean on these until you can lock the board down. It's nice the Sphere costs 2 and can come down on turn 1 easier than Trinisphere.

If anyone wants to discuss this, shoot me an e-mail at Pbeethefox@yahoo.com. It'll get my attention faster than this post, I often forget about the source for days at a time.

[The Wes]

I'm still up in the air about ghost quarter, I used to run 1 main and had avenmindcensors. Sometimes it was amazing, other times it just felt like I was stalling. Seems like the crypts are just a waste of space, I'd prefer to play s. fields since they could take the place of your crypts and matrixes.

Why the 1 md O stone and none in the sb? I really need to try out the aura of silence, its always seemed good, even with the ww cost.

Just a note, I've always felt like karmic justice, if you are going to play them at all, should be a 4 of. You really want them as soon as possible and they are great in multiples. I was recently playing against a deck on workstation and I had finally just started to get control of the game, when they dropped serenity. They laughed, said some less than nice things about me, then passed the turn. My turn I just smiled and dropped karmic justice x 2 to wipe their board on upkeep. The <player lost> was about 10 seconds later.

How was the 1 of Moat? I need to get my hands on 1 or 2 of those someday.

I stopped using Mishra's a few months back and haven't really missed them. Are people still loving them that much? I run 2 tabernacles main so I wanted more access to white and mishra's just wasn't cutting it. Maybe I should try them again as only a 2 of.

Oh, I'm planning on taking this to Syracuse for the aniversary event if anyone wants to start helping me playtest the hell out of this deck. I wasn't able to make it to the 1k because of a friend coming into town but I really want to play this in more tourneys. Anyone else playing this in our online tourney? I'm currently 2-0 with it.

I really want to try out aven in one form or another with a ghost quarter...

[Patrick]

I'm still up in the air about ghost quarter, I used to run 1 main and had avenmindcensors. Sometimes it was amazing, other times it just felt like I was stalling. Seems like the crypts are just a waste of space, I'd prefer to play s. fields since they could take the place of your crypts and matrixes.

Why the 1 md O stone and none in the sb? I really need to try out the aura of silence, its always seemed good, even with the ww cost.

Just a note, I've always felt like karmic justice, if you are going to play them at all, should be a 4 of. You really want them as soon as possible and they are great in multiples. I was recently playing against a deck on workstation and I had finally just started to get control of the game, when they dropped serenity. They laughed, said some less than nice things about me, then passed the turn. My turn I just smiled and dropped karmic justice x 2 to wipe their board on upkeep. The <player lost> was about 10 seconds later.

How was the 1 of Moat? I need to get my hands on 1 or 2 of those someday.

I stopped using Mishra's a few months back and haven't really missed them. Are people still loving them that much? I run 2 tabernacles main so I wanted more access to white and mishra's just wasn't cutting it. Maybe I should try them again as only a 2 of.

Oh, I'm planning on taking this to Syracuse for the aniversary event if anyone wants to start helping me playtest the hell out of this deck. I wasn't able to make it to the 1k because of a friend coming into town but I really want to play this in more tourneys. Anyone else playing this in our online tourney? I'm currently 2-0 with it.

I really want to try out aven in one form or another with a ghost quarter...

First I'll tackle the Damping Matrix/Suppression Field. Suppression Field hits all activated abilities, causing them to cost 2 mana. Damping Matrix hits only artifacts and creatures, and stops them. Paying 3 to activate Mishra's Factory, Wasteland and Ghost Quarter can be a huge hindrance. All of the activated abilities I need the Field to stop get stopped by Matrix except the ones that I'm also using. It just seems better this way. Differing meta's require different cards.

Ghost Quarter has been amazing at times, and satisfactory at worst. Against control and combo decks that run 1-3 basics it's Strip Mine, and even if you hit lands every turn with it under Crucible, over a few turns you've dropped their chances of hitting another land considerably. Aven Mindscensor is a neat trick, but that takes up slots that I'd rather have as Exalted Angel.

The Moat wins more games than any other card in the deck except MAYBE Armageddon. Aggro decks can't deal with it, and it's in the 1-of slot of Windborn Muse that everyone seems to debate. I like the Moat better, but the $50+ pricetag is a factor and I'm lucky enough to have a friend who owns one.

Mishra's Factory isn't as good as it should be, but it can randomly trade with an otherwise lethal Piledrive and buy enough time to drop Ghostly Prison/Moat/Magus. Other times it can get in for 10 damage or so, and most people see Factor as a kill condition and are more likely to concede with 2 damage on the board. As minute as it is, it's usually enough to get into game 2 or 3.

About Karmic Justice: I haven't got to use this card how it's supposed to be used, but I haven't seen any Serenity or Deed either. I'd like there to be 1 more but it's hard to fit because of:

Tormod's Crypt: Against Ichorid this card is nice to see, even as a 2 of. Sometimes it's just good enough to buy 1 turn until you can stabilize.

[Jaiminho]

You forget that getting a Suppresion Field down early makes your opponent have to pay for using fetchlands. You screw his tempo big time. Also, making something cost 2 more is almost as making it unpayable unless in the late game or, as with most decks, very late game.

[Nihil Credo]

Just as importantly, Damping Matrix does nothing to Pernicious Deed. The #1 reason to play Suppression Field is that it makes a significant Deed activation cost five mana. Not quite Pithing Needle, but often enough to save your ass.

[Patrick]

This is a good point. I haven't played against Deed yet.

[DeathScythe]

True pernicious deed (As are welders though) is a beast against this deck as they give them a 1 vs entire board, yet i still don't think you need supp fields agaisnt them, you already have roughly 7 outs for it mainboard, 5 geddons (assuming you play 5) and 2 oblivion ring (2 really is a great number mainboard) so if they play deed you can either clear the board of lands or remove the deed and pray theyt dont get a second till you can solidly keep them of their mana's.

so what activated abilities do you guys really fear besides welder and deed (EE in several decks) to run a full set of suppression fields?

[Redlotus27]

Has anyone considered Karn as a finisher in here? Animating a bunch of artifacts looks mighty fine to swing for 10+ damage

Worst thing is the 5 mana cost

[The Wes]

Which do we fear? Or which does it just really help to hit?
Well, deed, welder, survival, breakfast, man lands in landstill. They also help the matchup against countertop decks (the top, fetchlands), gobs (hitting their vials, ports, wastes, siege gangs, gempalms), most of breakfast, i like them against decks that use jitte orther equipment. There are very few decks that they don't effect in one way or another by slowing down their temp, and making it easier for you get to that all important lock.

[slyfer]

I think that deed is addressed by some (2 or 3) karmic justice, then you hope to develop 3 mana on turn 2 so to cast crucible and then proceed with justice/armageddon/oblivion ring (3 maindeck are ok).

[Fred Bear]

You're missing the point of Suppression Field.

It's not that it necessarily 'solves' a problem like Deed or Welder (in fact I personally board Pithing Needle to help with those), it's that Suppression Field puts a price on speed (tempo) that kills tight mana curves. It works against Deed and Welder, but is arguably better against fetches, Survival, and man-lands. And combined with Armageddon/Ravages, you can really strangle a number of strategies.

- FB...

[DeathScythe]

karn iosnt great, only time to use the guy is when A you need a forced blocker or B your oppo is unable to play sometihng like STP (which would mean you're ganna win 90% of the time anyways). I doubt youwant to see your crucible flying to the RFG zone for a lousy 3 life

i know you can block things with it but do you really have to do it, i can remember trapping a ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh player with 6 fetches out (which was a funny sight though) but i dont think you will hit such things a lot to make it worth while
or the US meta is a 180 degree turn from the meta over here in the netherlands where its a SB card at best for the time you accually face ceph breakfast (faced it once in 6 tournies, hardly saw it either)

also for the US ammong us, is solidairity played over there? as i havnet seen anything about how crappy the MU is (game 1 20% tops depending on build, post bord prob more 30%ish

[Fred Bear]

Simply put - Karn is win more. If you are in a situation where you can attack with your artifacts, you are going to win anyways - just attack with a Factory or Magus or Angel or whatever. Karn is a waste of time.

DeathScythe - I'm assuming you are saying Suppression Field is a sideboard card at best, and I would tend to agree, in general. In certain metas, you will find that you side it in often enough that you are better off maindecking it.

In terms of Solidarity, I've never had a problem with it. Like most combo, your goal is to lock them out of being able to 'go off' and we play a lot of cards that will do that to Solidarity (Chalice, Trinisphere, Armageddon, etc.). It's not uncommon to lose the first game, though, if you don't know what they are playing and end up with an anti-aggro opening. Winning games 2 and 3 after boarding out all creature control becomes much easier, though, unless they are really expecting Stax and have more than just a Rebuild or Hurkyll's. If you are having a lot of trouble, sideboarding Rule of Law kills them since they are then forced to find bounce for your artifacts and the enchantment all while trying to counter your board control. You might lose occassionally, but I've never seen it to be anywhere near 30-70 post board in their favor (I would put it at 65-75 : 35-25 in Stax favor post board).

- FB...

[DeathScythe]

I know the MU well enough to know what's good and what isnt (have the pleasure of having 'the dutch solidairity player' close to home and we know each other good enough), chalices arent my favorite to play against it on as the deck has enough option to get rid of it or take advantage of the rather slow clock staxx has, biggest problem is if they run into double remand or something else insane giving them 4 lands and eat your deck in response to either geddon, 3sphere or w/e they dont want to see. Overal annoying MU to get. And no, im not sbing rule of laws as there's very few combo around to make it worth it (although could drop one in there as im mad enough to sb 1 enlightened tutor)

as for suppression field, your right, but I would rather not play staxx in a heavy ceph breakfast meta for example, TES or Ichorid woudl be a better choice imo

[Skeggi]

as for suppression field, your right, but I would rather not play staxx in a heavy ceph breakfast meta for example, TES or Ichorid woudl be a better choice imo

It's kind of the point of making Stax viable in any meta. Suppression Field helps.

[The Wes]

Just have to ask DeathScythe, why the 1 enlightened tutor in the sb? Just sounds messed up to me. I can't think of a matchup that I'd want to bring in a 1 of tutor thats hurt by 8 of my mb permanents. Whats your list? Mind of you post it, that might clear up a little of my confusion.

About s. field, yeah, I wouldn't play stax in a healvy breakfast meta, but when you only run into one once in a while it helps to have it in the sb. That and fields just hurt the tempo of so many other cards in so many different legacy decks.

[DeathScythe]

as you requested my current list

Mainboard

3 exalted angel
3 magus of the tabernacle
3 armageddon
2 ravages of war
4 ghostly prison
2 moat
2 oblivion ring
4 crucible of worlds
4 smokestack
4 chalice of the void
3 trinisphere (yes 3, not going to change)
3 mox diamond (yes another 3ish and i'm not gonig to change this one either
2 flagstones (right number for me, played with 3 and I didnt like it so 4 is out of the question)
1 gods' eye, gate to the reikai (thing is coolish but thinking about replacing it by a canopy
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
3 wasteland
3 mishra's factory
7 plains

sb

3 aura of silence
3 defense grid
3 tormod's crypt
2 karmic justice
1 trinishere (yes a sb one IF i want to switch to 4)
1 oblivion ring
1 enlightned tutor
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale

I know this is a bit of an odd list but i've been tweaking the deck to fit my playstyle, i'll explain a few cards/choices

3 trini's mb, 1 sb -> the cards is nuts against several decks and is able to delay my opponent if i play it at the right moment, but i dislike it as a 4-off mainboard. reason i got one sb is for the comboish MU in which you really need 4 of these

3 mox Diamond -> the whole uberplan is nice but i still find it a bit of BS to make it your maingoal, if you go T1 sphere it's cool, but it's not a gamewinner as i experienced. So if the 'T1 i do something which costs 3 mana' isnt a mainplan 4 diamond is a bit over the top, 3 is a good number

2 flagstones -> can't remember how many times i drew more than 2 making the card utterly useless, a 2-off is good enough for me. For the record, yes i played with 3.

gods' eye, gate to the reikai -> love the card as it gives me a constant smokestack on 2 + kill in one, though recently it didn't work to well for me so im thinking about testing a horizon canopy for it (that is if I am not an idiot and trade it away, again)

LAst but not least, Enlightened tutor -> Reason A: i found it in my highlander leftovers one day before a legacy tourny (went 3-1-1 swiss, got asswhiped by welders in QF) and i though, why the hell not.
Reason B: Find me cocky or w/e but my ingame skills (which some people here can confirm) are good, my sbing skills however are crappish (i really need to start playing more tournies, testing weekends and such). It;'s not rare that i get a situation in which i want to board 5 cards in but i do want to put 3 tormod's crypt en 3 aura's in (just as example not saying it happened) so my quick thought idiotic solution was, if i drop a tutor in my sb i can board in 2 of each and a E tutor which can find both of them so im basicly playing 3 of each.
Reason C: When you boarded you play less 4-offs and more 3 and sometimes 2 copies of certain cards, so this will make your draw more random. If you play even a random E tutor you can somewhat manipulate what you would draw (aka, find the CoW for wastelock or go T1, tutor T2 3sphere on combo or w/e)

Yes the card backfires with chalice and 3sphere but I was willing to take the risk.

[I'm a TROLL]

as you requested my current list

Mainboard

3 exalted angel
3 magus of the tabernacle
3 armageddon
2 ravages of war
4 ghostly prison
2 moat
2 oblivion ring
4 crucible of worlds
4 smokestack
4 chalice of the void
3 trinisphere (yes 3, not going to change)
3 mox diamond (yes another 3ish and i'm not gonig to change this one either
2 flagstones (right number for me, played with 3 and I didnt like it so 4 is out of the question)
1 gods' eye, gate to the reikai (thing is coolish but thinking about replacing it by a canopy
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
3 wasteland
3 mishra's factory
7 plains

sb

3 aura of silence
3 defense grid
3 tormod's crypt
2 karmic justice
1 trinishere (yes a sb one IF i want to switch to 4)
1 oblivion ring
1 enlightned tutor
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale

I know this is a bit of an odd list but i've been tweaking the deck to fit my playstyle, i'll explain a few cards/choices

3 trini's mb, 1 sb -> the cards is nuts against several decks and is able to delay my opponent if i play it at the right moment, but i dislike it as a 4-off mainboard. reason i got one sb is for the comboish MU in which you really need 4 of these

3 mox Diamond -> the whole uberplan is nice but i still find it a bit of BS to make it your maingoal, if you go T1 sphere it's cool, but it's not a gamewinner as i experienced. So if the 'T1 i do something which costs 3 mana' isnt a mainplan 4 diamond is a bit over the top, 3 is a good number

2 flagstones -> can't remember how many times i drew more than 2 making the card utterly useless, a 2-off is good enough for me. For the record, yes i played with 3.

gods' eye, gate to the reikai -> love the card as it gives me a constant smokestack on 2 + kill in one, though recently it didn't work to well for me so im thinking about testing a horizon canopy for it (that is if I am not an idiot and trade it away, again)

LAst but not least, Enlightened tutor -> Reason A: i found it in my highlander leftovers one day before a legacy tourny (went 3-1-1 swiss, got asswhiped by welders in QF) and i though, why the hell not.
Reason B: Find me cocky or w/e but my ingame skills (which some people here can confirm) are good, my sbing skills however are crappish (i really need to start playing more tournies, testing weekends and such). It;'s not rare that i get a situation in which i want to board 5 cards in but i do want to put 3 tormod's crypt en 3 aura's in (just as example not saying it happened) so my quick thought idiotic solution was, if i drop a tutor in my sb i can board in 2 of each and a E tutor which can find both of them so im basicly playing 3 of each.
Reason C: When you boarded you play less 4-offs and more 3 and sometimes 2 copies of certain cards, so this will make your draw more random. If you play even a random E tutor you can somewhat manipulate what you would draw (aka, find the CoW for wastelock or go T1, tutor T2 3sphere on combo or w/e)

Yes the card backfires with chalice and 3sphere but I was willing to take the risk.


Great list. I've found the God's Eye to be awasome. Also, I don't know why anyone needs four Trinisphere it's not like it's great against combo or Threshold. 3 is perrrrfict! I've thinking about cutting another mox diamond, too, for versatility in land. I think a single ghost quarter and maze of ith are really good.

have you thought about using Blinkmoth Nexus? That card is great in the mirror against exahausted angel and against the Sea stompy//Fairy Stompy.

I'd rather run Horizon canopy over the thrid Flagstone becuz you need a draw engine.

I think you should cut 2 smokestack for Windborn Muse because he is solid shut downs against dreadnought decks and espeically Icnorid combo. Also, cutting just one Crucible of the World for a Oblivion Ring would help against those dreadnoughts or Radkos pit Dragons.

[Curby]

Hold on a minute. I thought one of the worst problems of Stax was poor consistency, and one of its main strengths was the universal irritation that its lock pieces provide. That said, the way to build a classical Stax deck is to use a ton of 4-ofs, and only use 3-ofs when space doesn't permit the fourth copy. This in turn breeds consistency, as you can expect to get roughly the same cards every game.

This list has a bunch of singletons, which makes me wonder how likely you are to see these cards, and how likely it will be that you see them in the wrong situations. Type 1 Keeper had a bunch of silver bullets, but also ways to get them. With just 1-3 of so many cards and one card-advantage-losing Tutor (that can't even fetch the singleton land), doesn't the consistency suffer a huge blow?

I'm wondering why there is this recent shift in philosophy: from a ton of 4-ofs, to adding all manner of more narrow answers. Secondly, does the addition of more diverse but narrow answers actually help the deck more than it hurts it?

[I'm a TROLL]

Hold on a minute. I thought one of the worst problems of Stax was poor consistency, and one of its main strengths was the universal irritation that its lock pieces provide. That said, the way to build a classical Stax deck is to use a ton of 4-ofs, and only use 3-ofs when space doesn't permit the fourth copy.

Who told you that? Play the good stuff! Being versatile is important, I know about that first hand! :wink:

[Curby]

Who told you that? Play the good stuff! Being versatile is important, I know about that first hand! :wink:

Being versatile is important, but you're talking about adding a bunch of silver bullets without ways to grab them, so the consequence is greatly decreased consistency. Who cares if you have the perfect answer when it's buried in your deck? Stax doesn't have powerful sift, draw, or tutor effects. Recurring a Canopy is cute, but it's still slow when searching for 1-ofs.

Re: Smokestack to Muse: shouldn't 4 Prisons, 2 Moats, and 3 Magus be enough anti-creature tech? I'd probably use the Muse over Moats cause I'm on a budget, and Moats prevent my ground crew from attacking.

[The Wes]

I'd have to agree with Kirbysdl a lot. Consistency helps this deck a lot. Even with all the 4 ofs staxs has a problem in that it can just randomly loose to itself now and again. You are taking away the consistency for answers you just hope to find? I can not imagine the singleton enlightened t in the sb as that much help in finding your stuff. Not having access to your versatility doesn't help the deck jack. Stax can not afford to draw a tutor that has already been screwed by your chalice.

I can definately see running the 2 moats and not running any windborn, I'd probably stop running my windborn if i had the moats. I can also see only running 3 trinispheres, thats what my list runs and it often feels like the right number.

You run 4 smokestacks and 5 geddon effects and you only run 2 flagstones? Having a second one in hand isn't useless, you just either drop it and fetch out two plains(which you often have time for in stax games where you are already locking them down, discard it to the diamonds, or drop it after you've geddoned or sac'd the first). I used to run 3 and would consistently wish that I was running a 4th. Especially with that many sac effects and land destruction. Also why only 23 lands? You want to have more lands in the deck to be able to handle the diamonds (and lets not even get into you only running 3 of those), and to be able to recover faster after a geddon when you dont' have the crucible.

There is no reason to drop the number of crucibles to 3, you are running a deck that has 12 cards that get remarkably better with a crucible out, 21 cards if you cound the cities, factories, and wastelands.

Bad suggestions, just because you think they add diversity and versatility, are still bad suggestions.

[Skeggi]

Also, cutting just one Crucible of the World for a Oblivion Ring would help against those dreadnoughts or Radkos pit Dragons.

Ouch...if anything is a 4-of, Crucible is. I'd take 5 if I could.


Re: Smokestack to Muse: shouldn't 4 Prisons, 2 Moats, and 3 Magus be enough anti-creature tech? I'd probably use the Muse over Moats cause I'm on a budget, and Moats prevent my ground crew from attacking.

Have you ever had a Trygon Predator across the board? If your opponent plays Thresh with these mainboard, he knows he's going to get you down with it and will do anything to protect it. Windborn Muse blocks it; the Muse is great. I guess if your Meta hasn't figured out the extreme power of Trygon Predator yet, Muse is less relevant. Moat also does nothing to Tombstalkers, Hypnotic Specters, Dragons, Angels...Moat doesn't complement to Armageddon...Factories and Maguses stay at home...all in all, I don't really like Moat for this deck. 5 Geddon-effects and 6 Prison-effects keep any creatures your opponent throws at you at bay.



You run 4 smokestacks and 5 geddon effects and you only run 2 flagstones? Having a second one in hand isn't useless, you just either drop it and fetch out two plains(which you often have time for in stax games where you are already locking them down, discard it to the diamonds, or drop it after you've geddoned or sac'd the first). I used to run 3 and would consistently wish that I was running a 4th. Especially with that many sac effects and land destruction.

I have often found having a second one in hand sucks. It's no disaster, but I often don't want to throw both on the board to fetch 2 plains, because that makes my lock more vulnerable, as I'm sooner out of plains. Meaning I mostly keep it in hand until I draw a Mox, and since he plays only 3 Moxes, it's no wonder why he cut down to 2 Flagstones. On the other hand, I've also found that drawing none sucks too. So I went from 3 to 4 and I'm trying that now, but I must confess I am considering dropping back to 3, which I'm pretty sure of, is a better number than 2.


Bad suggestions, just because you think they add diversity and versatility, are still bad suggestions.

I guess it depends on playstyle. Mine relies heavily on trinispheres for example, so I do need the 4-of there and the 4-of Mox. I know DeathScythe knows what he's doing, but I think it's really a different style of playing Stax, a bit more risky. No doubt it's better in the mirror though.

I do believe there's quite some playground with the lands though; how many Flagstones, Plains, Factories, Wastelands, two mana lands. Here you can make way for your toys like Kor Haven and Horizon Canopy (Maze of Ith and Tabernacle aren't land-lands, because they don't produce mana, they ditch nicely to the Mox though...yes I like to state the obvious ;) ).

@DeathScythe: since you have 2 Ravages, have you ever played with 6 Geddon-effects? Or is 6 simply too much? I guess this depends if your meta has alot of combo or not ;)

[DeathScythe]

'I'd rather run Horizon canopy over the thrid Flagstone becuz you need a draw engine.'

I dont run a 3th flagstones so this would mean cutting something else ;)

'I think you should cut 2 smokestack for Windborn Muse because he is solid shut downs against dreadnought decks and espeically Icnorid combo. Also, cutting just one Crucible of the World for a Oblivion Ring would help against those dreadnoughts or Radkos pit Dragons.'

Tested the muses after i had a discussion with skeggi, I didn't like them so I threw them out of the window, Dreadnoughts aren't scary imo as you got 2 turns to awner it which should be enough. I also don't care about pit dragons I'm 12-1 vs DS atm (yes, the one win for DS was with a pit dragon but i drew 10 lands in a row).

'I used to run 3 and would consistently wish that I was running a 4th'

Your play style obviously is different than mine, the fetching plan is funny but im in a more aggro/aggro control meta in which I don't have the time to do that, and if I'm locking someone it doesnt sounds really relevant to do it as your oppo is prob going to lose anyway

'Also why only 23 lands? You want to have more lands in the deck to be able to handle the diamonds '

23 vs 3 diamonds is a good enough ratio imo, most deck run 25-26 using 4 diamond. I got to the number 23 only by tweaking but it works good enough for my liking, also throwing in more lands is a tad annoying as i have to cut something for it

'and to be able to recover faster after a geddon when you dont' have the crucible.'

it's very unusual for me to throw all my lands on the board i tend to keep a few in my hand to bluf (2cards in hand is mostly better than 0 cards in hand, plus I don't need them on the board anyway) or to recover from a mid/late geddon. If i'm forced to play a geddon it will also screw my opponent over (via prison or trinisphere depending on the situation) so i get the time to get rolling (yes if you draw crap you're as good as dead but isn't that normal...?)

'I know DeathScythe knows what he's doing, but I think it's really a different style of playing Stax, a bit more risky.'

even though you never met me in person or had a serieous long chat with me it's a tad flattering ;) And yes it's a bit more risky, but that's more my style, it's also not unussual that i burn my ass down to 1 for example. Also to compensate the risk factor is the funny fact that I know exactly what I can and cannot do (being judge is sweet and abusive) which also goes for my opponent so if he makes an error in tournamentplay I see it 99% of the times (for example some ass tried to sac his nether spirit constantly for my smokestack and a more stupid stax palyer would've allowed that, I'm not so kind)

'@DeathScythe: since you have 2 Ravages, have you ever played with 6 Geddon-effects? Or is 6 simply too much? I guess this depends if your meta has alot of combo or not ;)'

Never tried as I got no clue what to drop for the 4th geddon (or the 3rd ravages if I can get it for cheap like my other 2). And my local meta is to wierd to discibe with al the random things i hit (hence i'm building 2 casual decks to asswhipe those). I mostly test over there with a few people (who are about the same lvl as me) using proxies

[Skeggi]

Never tried as I got no clue what to drop for the 4th geddon (or the 3rd ravages if I can get it for cheap like my other 2).

You could drop your 4th Smokestack for instance. Running 3 usually does the trick just fine.

P.S. Improve your forum skills ;p

[DeathScythe]

You could drop your 4th Smokestack for instance. Running 3 usually does the trick just fine.

P.S. Improve your forum skills ;p

I've seen that lil trick and yet to test it (I usually do the big testing in tournaments) as I first want a good sb and the sb skills, which are still crappish for me. Perhaps I'm going to give it a throw at the dutch nationals (the legacy one obviously not the standard/draft one ;)) and see what happens

P.S. I can't help I'm to lazy to qoute my ass of :P other forums I used (nedermagic and benelegacy) aren't really the best forums in the worlds so give me some time ;)

[I'm a TROLL]

You need a draw engine. Play 1 or 2 Horizon canopy! Cut 2 plains you wont be sorry!

Consider playing 1 or 2 Blinkmouth nexus over mishra's factory For the reasons stated above.

Consider cutting one or two geddon efefcts for oblvion ring and maze of ith. also, cut a mox diamond and a wasteland for 2 ghost quarter. you should only need to geddon once before they taste the recuring wasteland/Quarter locket.

two canopy let you draw into your 'Gedon

[B4L4]

Hey, plz stop cutting mox diamond.
Its an obvious 4 of.
We want to cast 3-4cc spells early right?
We want synergy with geddon.. ect..

When i see a list with 5 spells (exalted and moat) requiring WW, and only 2 flagstones, 3 mox and 7 plains in the list, i consider its a joke.
(not counting aura of silence in side.)

I play 4 mox, 4 flagstones and 6 plains in my 25lands manabase and its still hard to unmorph my single exalted with this configuration.

[Skeggi]

two canopy let you draw into your 'Gedon

There is simply no time to set up a comfortable Canopy draw engine; I need to play other lands at first instead of having the luxoury of saccing the Canopy every turn.

The Canopy draw engine is good mid - late game, where most of your lock pieces are already there, often you want to have played a Geddon-effect here already.


Consider cutting one or two geddon efefcts for oblvion ring and maze of ith

I'm against Maze of Ith since it doesn't produce mana, I'd rather play Kor Haven. Dropping a key-card like Armageddon for Maze of Ith is just plain silly. Second, Oblivion Ring is still a sideboard card in my book. I understand some people like to play it MB, and that's fine, it just depends on your playing style. But again, cutting a key-card like Armageddon is just plain silly.


i consider its a joke. (not counting aura of silence in side.)

This totally depends on meta.


I play 4 mox, 4 flagstones and 6 plains in my 25lands manabase and its still hard to unmorph my single exalted with this configuration.

Well perhaps you should try running 3 Flagstones and 7 plains then since you can't have 2 Flagstones at the same time on the table, the fourth one doesn't really help you getting to that second white mana.

[I'm a TROLL]

You must have all the time in the world in your meta. I actually have a clock to work against over here. There is simply no time to set up a comfortable Canopy draw engine; I need to play other lands at first instead of having the luxoury of saccing the Canopy every turn.

The Canopy draw engine is good mid - late game, where most of your lock pieces are already there, often you want to have played a Geddon-effect here already.



Wow I haven't thought of that...because it sucks. I'll elaborate a bit: first off: I'm against Maze of Ith since it doesn't produce mana, I'd rather play Kor Haven. Dropping a key-card like Armageddon for Maze of Ith is just plain silly. Second, Oblivion Ring is still a sideboard card in my book. I understand some people like to play it MB, and that's fine, it just depends on your playing style. But again, cutting a key-card like Armageddon is just plain silly.



This totally depends on meta.



Well perhaps you should try running 3 Flagstones and 7 plains then since you can't have 2 Flagstones at the same time on the table, the fourth one doesn't really help you getting to that second white mana.


You know what sucks? Having to pay two mana to maze of ith. With maze of ith you can still cast spells without paying two mana.

Armageddon becomes a lot less key when running ghost quarter and o ring.
with o ring and maze of ith you gain time to play your spellz!

I would like to site example of people playing with less geddons because the card is not that important if you have a draw engine. Look at Jonathan Rispal's stax at worlds. The guy must be good if he is playing at worlds and HE went 4-1. See: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/worlds07/legacydecks

Look at the article by the wizard Chris Coppola: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15962.html They don't even run armageddon!!

I forgot about tangle wire. I think we need to reintroduce that card into the deck as I know it is a bomb!!

[DeathScythe]

When i see a list with 5 spells (exalted and moat) requiring WW, and only 2 flagstones, 3 mox and 7 plains in the list, i consider its a joke.
(not counting aura of silence in side.)

I play 4 mox, 4 flagstones and 6 plains in my 25lands manabase and its still hard to unmorph my single exalted with this configuration.

i hardly have trouble flippin' the angel or digging my moat so considering it a joke is a bit harsh to say, perhaps you shuffle different than me and shuffle all your white sources on the bottom?
My manabase is very wierd at first sight I'm perfectly aware of that but I got to this setup through testing a lot (which is still going on for the record) and it fits MY PLAYSTYLE. And to be fair, yes manascrew happens in a few games but that counts for all decks doesn't it :confused:

[Skeggi]

Armageddon becomes a lot less key when running ghost quarter and o ring.
with o ring and maze of ith you gain time to play your spellz!

Firstly, I don't play 'spellz'.

Secondly, Armageddon buys you the time. It's what it does, and if it doesn't buy you time, it wins you the game. But it's fine by me, you go toss your Armageddons. I'm not a big fan of Ghost Quarter as it's too slow to take effect.


You know what sucks? Having to pay two mana to maze of ith. With maze of ith you can still cast spells without paying two mana.

You're right, Kor Haven costs two mana and Maze of Ith none (or you could see it as it costs you 1 mana every turn). But you could take a few hits at first, that doesn't really matter, and later on, you have the two mana to spare to stop that runaway Goyf. And in the meantime you could have used Kor Haven for mana to cast your locks.

[B4L4]

Well perhaps you should try running 3 Flagstones and 7 plains then since you can't have 2 Flagstones at the same time on the table, the fourth one doesn't really help you getting to that second white mana.

3 or 4 flagstones is not the problem here, the number of white source is. (12 in your build, 14 in mine).

Furthermore, 2 flagstones at the same time is rare, because:
_ You need to draw 2 of them
_ The first flagstone has more than 50% chance of becoming a plain before you draw a 2nd one (geddon, smoke..)
_ If you really had to play the 2nd flagstones, you just loose tempo "1 tapped mana during that turn", so it only matter when you are hurry.

[DeathScythe]

You know what sucks? Having to pay two mana to maze of ith. With maze of ith you can still cast spells without paying two mana.

Armageddon becomes a lot less key when running ghost quarter and o ring.
with o ring and maze of ith you gain time to play your spellz!

mr france, maybe the sentence ghost quarters = strip mine is true in your lil country but in The Netherlands, this sentence is far from true.
Also kor haven > maze of ith just because it gives mana to allow you to play spells and stall the game to let you draw more cards, also a neat trick behind kor haven, you can kill the creature if you're in the right spot doensn't that just sounds to good to be true?

[Skeggi]

3 or 4 flagstones is not the problem here, the number of white source is. (12 in your build, 14 in mine).

Ho, wait STOP!

DISCLAIMER: I used to run 3 Flagstones, am running 4 now and am thinking of cutting back to 3.

I'm merely saying that I can see how DeathScythes rather unorthodox list could work with the propper playstyle.


mr france, maybe the sentence ghost quarters = strip mine is true in your lil country but in The Netherlands, this sentence is far from true.

I think B4L4 is French, and I don't know where Bad Magic 101 comes from, who suggested the Ghost Quarters...and on a side note, I wouldn't call France a 'lil country' ;)

Back on track:

Furthermore, 2 flagstones at the same time is rare, because:
_ You need to draw 2 of them
_ The first flagstone has more than 50% chance of becoming a plain before you draw a 2nd one (geddon, smoke..)
_ If you really had to play the 2nd flagstones, you just loose tempo "1 tapped mana during that turn", so it only matter when you are hurry.

Playing 4 Flagstones myself, it's not that rare drawing that second Flagstone, it's actually quite common. But it's no disaster as pointed out earlier.

[I'm a TROLL]

Firstly, I don't play 'spellz'.

Secondly, Armageddon buys you the time. It's what it does, and if it doesn't buy you time, it wins you the game. But it's fine by me, you go toss your Armageddons. I'm not a big fan of Ghost Quarter as it's too slow to take effect.



You're right, Kor Haven costs two mana and Maze of Ith none (or you could see it as it costs you 1 mana every turn). But you could take a few hits at first, that doesn't really matter, and later on, you have the two mana to spare to stop that runaway Goyf. And in the meantime you could have used Kor Haven for mana to cast your locks.

Whatever grammer police. The "z" key is right next to the "s" key.

Armageddon thrashes your land. Instead, i want to buy time then geddon! plus you forget about the draw engine!! you need a draw engine. Like I showed with links abbove, you overvalue geddon

[DeathScythe]

3 or 4 flagstones is not the problem here, the number of white source is. (12 in your build, 14 in mine).

oi help me figure out one thing, you are saying I play to few white sources (not skeggi, the list you're talking about is mine) and then you give reasons which indicate that my number of flagstones is wrong in your eyes, this are 2 different items if I'm not mistaking.

And i will repeat it once more for the third time (and please take your time to read it this time), it fits MY playstyle. Yes it's different but different does NOT make it crappish.



I think B4L4 is French, and I don't know where Bad Magic 101 comes from, who suggested the Ghost Quarters...and on a side note, I wouldn't call France a 'lil country' ;)

that's sort of true, geus I read to quick for my own good, and I still find France small but let's not go off-topic

[Skeggi]

Whatever grammer police. The "z" key is right next to the "s" key.

Armageddon thrashes your land. Instead, i want to buy time then geddon! plus you forget about the draw engine!! you need a draw engine.

Sorry I didn't want to be 'grammar' police :tongue:

Anyways, if that suits your playstyle, you should. I just know it's sort of a lose-more situation: Armageddon is a card I often need to play asap, or I get trampled.

[I'm a TROLL]

I'm merely saying that I can see how DeathScythes rather unorthodox list could work with the propper playstyle.

Playing 4 Flagstones myself, it's not that rare drawing that second Flagstone, it's actually quite common. But it's no disaster as pointed out earlier.

Looosing tempo aint a big dealbreaker? Why not cut two flagstones and play a draw engine?! How many exhausted angel do you play?

I really like DeathScythes list as it is very versatile. There's nothing worse then drawing dead cards.

[I'm a TROLL]

Sorry I didn't want to be 'grammar' police :tongue:

Anyways, if that suits your playstyle, you should. I just know it's sort of a lose-more situation: Armageddon is a card I often need to play asap, or I get trampled.

Maybe its more playskill and versatility fhan anything else. if you have to panic and hit the armageddon button their's probably more wrong than good.

[Skeggi]

Looosing tempo aint a big dealbreaker? Why not cut two flagstones and play a draw engine?! How many exhausted angel do you play?

I play 2 (my angels are exalted and fit though, not near exhaustion :tongue:). What do you mean by losing tempo? Drawing that second one happens mid-game, often when the opponent is already locked down (with a little help from my Armageddon :tongue:)


Maybe its more playskill and versatility fhan anything else. if you have to panic and hit the armageddon button their's probably more wrong than good.

Maybe it is, but don't confuse an early Armageddon with panic.


I still find France small but let's not go off-topic

Calling it 'Pays-Petite' (sp?) would fit more then ;p

Anyways; I'm kind of tired defending cards like Armageddon for this deck. If you want to be stubborn, be my guest. I'm off to bed now. GL with your deck.

[DeathScythe]

Looosing tempo aint a big dealbreaker? Why not cut two flagstones and play a draw engine?! How many exhausted angel do you play?

I really like DeathScythes list as it is very versatile. There's nothing worse then drawing dead cards.

Perhaps you would like to try my list, I've been tooling and tweaking for about 1,5 years now and I doubt you can understand some of the choices I made (hence the whole flagstones/mox D/ 'you play to little 4-off' yadayada) but I hope that you do understand that it's a good list for me even though you never met me.

Perhaps you can take the trouble of mailing acme-myst see what he thinks about how I play this list

[I'm a TROLL]

Perhaps you would like to try my list, I've been tooling and tweaking for about 1,5 years now and I doubt you can understand some of the choices I made (hence the whole flagstones/mox D/ 'you play to little 4-off' yadayada) but I hope that you do understand that it's a good list for me even though you never met me.

Perhaps you can take the trouble of mailing acme-myst see what he thinks about how I play this list

It is a good list. it has the versatility needed to survive


I play 2 (my angels are exalted and fit though, not near exhaustion :tongue:). What do you mean by losing tempo? Drawing that second one happens mid-game, often when the opponent is already locked down (with a little help from my Armageddon :tongue:)



Maybe it is, but don't confuse an early Armageddon with panic.



Calling it 'Pays-Petite' (sp?) would fit more then ;p

Anyways; I'm kind of tired defending cards like Armageddon for this deck. If you want to be stubborn, be my guest. I'm off to bed now. GL with your deck.

I mean like losing tempo when you need to cast a spell and instead you have to blow up the flagstones like that example with a flagstone in play a city of traitors and a smokestack in hand. a flagstone their is verry bad.

[Bane of the Living]

Whatever grammer police. The "z" key is right next to the "s" key.

Armageddon thrashes your land. Instead, i want to buy time then geddon! plus you forget about the draw engine!! you need a draw engine. Like I showed with links abbove, you overvalue geddon

Over value geddon? Where did you come from?

Armageddon is the best card in the deck. It makes Trinisphere, Chalice, Magus, Crucible, and Ghostly Prison better.

[I'm a TROLL]

Over value geddon? Where did you come from?

Armageddon is the best card in the deck. It makes Trinisphere, Chalice, Magus, Crucible, and Ghostly Prison better.

go back and look at the links above that i provided. plains is the best card in the deck so you can cast your stuff!

[The Wes]

One, the worlds list you posted still used 4 geddon effects. Sounds kind of important to the game plan to me. 4 geddon effects and no draw engine, so i'm not sure what you are talking about with saying geddon arn't needed with a draw engine. Geddon's are AMAZING, if you arn't playing them as at least a 4 of, you should leave the board.

About the second list its called Angel Stax, and if you look carefully and I assume you can read, the name of the thread we are posting in is Armageddon stax. From what I've seen geddon stax puts up better numbers than angel stax in most metas.

Haven't we talked about tanglewire enough over 31 pages, I'm pretty sure we ended up saying that unless you have a specific meta, it isn't that good and hurts you as much as it hurts them. We don't have access to all the extra moxes that T1 does, so we have less stuff to tap down. It does help against a few select decks, but I'm not sure that makes it worth it to run md, and sb we'd have to take out other good cards against a wider variety of decks.

I think Kor haven is better simply because it taps for mana. That helps out greatly.

How is it panicing to hit the armageddon button? Thats what the deck is designed to do! Play some lock pieces, geddon them out, then recover faster than them, win. Seems like pretty much the plan for the deck.

Also both decks linked had 4 mox diamonds and over 25 lands.

How are the posts in this forum going down so fast? Crucible = good, geddon effects = good, 3 mana turn 1 = good. Are we now trying to make the deck less consistent and able to get an early lock? Cause if so go right ahead.

[Fred Bear]

The bottom line here, guys, is that if we start to use clarifiers and rationalizations like 'it works for me', or 'it's great in my meta', or 'it fits my playstyle'. You can point to a card that works versus certain decks (and subsequently in certain metas), but is not a maindeck 'universal' solution. Honestly, DeathScythe's list looks pre-sideboarded to me. He has all the answers that he expects to need in his meta. His list wouldn't work for me at all. That doesn't make it a 'bad' list, but it's probably not what I would consider a starting point either if I were travelling to a Grand Prix or similar meta.

Armageddon (I've said this before if you read this whole thread and the 1-2 before it) is the best card in this deck (just like Bane said). Period. Armageddon is very good against Legacy in general because it punishes tight mana curves, low land counts, and the use of fetches (i.e. most of the format). Take Thresh for example, in a typical list they play 17-18 lands with 6-7 fetches. It's not unusual for them to use 2 fetches to get their first two lands. If I 'Geddon off two lands and a mox, it's a 4-for-4 trade (3 lands and Armageddon for 2 lands in play and 2 fetches), but my recovery is 22 lands plus 4 Crucibles in my remaining deck while he has 13-14 lands left in his. This often swings 'tempo' in my direction which is HUGE agains a deck like Thresh.

Pointing to a list from Magic League (SteveMan runs and wins a lot of tournaments over there against a VERY predictable meta and, I mean no offense by this, the culture at Magic League is to drop before you lose to maintain rating) that is obviously tweaked for the meta (Swords in the board?) and Rispal's deck, which is atypical to say the least and is clearly attempting a 'good stuff' approach, doesn't exactly prove your point about Armageddon's value (both decks mainboard or sideboard it even). It again goes to the metas, SteveMan's list is great in some tournaments he plays and others he bows out quickly in others - not to mention a 3 round tournament gathers little data - and I've not seen a list of Rispal's opponent's, but if you are a good Magic player (at World's) and know your Stax deck (as I'm sure he did and many on this thread are/do), in a tournament of 100s of players of varied ability, 4-1 with a sub-optimal list is not an unreasonable outcome.

I think we can all come up with cards that are great against certain decks and certain archetypes, but I know my motivation is to look for the best 'general purpose' cards which give me the highest chance of winning no matter what, when, or against who. That's probably pretty narrow, but, again, I think solving an aggro-heavy meta is easy for this deck, solving a combo-heavy meta is easy for this deck (not to say that they won't have answers). But try solving a Landstill-heavy meta, try solving a Survival-heavy meta - those are our real challenges.

Just my 2 cents...

-FB...

[I'm a TROLL]

One, the worlds list you posted still used 4 geddon effects. Sounds kind of important to the game plan to me. 4 geddon effects and no draw engine, so i'm not sure what you are talking about with saying geddon arn't needed with a draw engine. Geddon's are AMAZING, if you arn't playing them as at least a 4 of, you should leave the board.

Wrong. Look again. I assume you can read as it is "Jonathan Rispal" at 2007 Worlds, Legacy.

He has 1 armageddon and 1 ravages of war.

[jazzykat]

While I know that exalted angel is somewhat of a standard in everyone's list and she really does steal games, has anyone considered putting tangle wires in her place to buy you more time? Wires obviously have good synergy with smokestack, 3sphere but they are have a lopsided effect as over the course of a wire your opponent will tap 10 permanents and you will tap 6 total but only 3 that are not your wire.

[I'm a TROLL]

One, the worlds list you posted still used 4 geddon effects. Sounds kind of important to the game plan to me. 4 geddon effects and no draw engine, so i'm not sure what you are talking about with saying geddon arn't needed with a draw engine. Geddon's are AMAZING, if you arn't playing them as at least a 4 of, you should leave the board.

About the second list its called Angel Stax, and if you look carefully and I assume you can read, the name of the thread we are posting in is Armageddon stax. From what I've seen geddon stax puts up better numbers than angel stax in most metas.

Angel Stax and Geddon stacks are the same thing. This is not Angel stompy.

Exactly, geddon is amazing when you set it up, like what I said.

[Linkin Pac]

Armageddon needs to be included as an automatic 4-of, period. It's the trump card of the deck IMO, the one that swings the game in your favor, the one that lets you breathe a sigh of relief after it resolves. Plus its the feared card of the deck, the one your opponent hates to see resolve.

jazzykat, I don't think Tangle Wire is really all that great in this deck. I've tested with four of them in my Angel Stax build (which basically had more Angels and Wraths instead of Armageddons), and they just end up being annoying on your side of the table. Plus, Angel does her job by buying you more time as well, as she can regain life lost to Ancient Tomb.

Also, I'm a strong supporter of making the deck as consistent as possible, playing only 4-ofs of cards essential to the deck instead of throwing in random silver bullets. Like others have said before, the deck has no tutors and no draw, so the single of double copies of Moat/Kor Haven/etc. reduce the overrall effectiveness of the deck. The only cards in my list that there are not at least 4 of are Exalted Angels (the win condition anyway) and Mishra's Factory (I couldn't fit in any more with the tight land structure, even with 26 lands). I feel four of each card makes the deck much more solid, albeit a little less versatile to feared decks. Have faith in what the deck is supposed to do.

[I'm a TROLL]

Armageddon (I've said this before if you read this whole thread and the 1-2 before it) is the best card in this deck (just like Bane said). Period. Armageddon is very good against Legacy in general because it punishes tight mana curves, low land counts, and the use of fetches (i.e. most of the format). Take Thresh for example, in a typical list they play 17-18 lands with 6-7 fetches. It's not unusual for them to use 2 fetches to get their first two lands. If I 'Geddon off two lands and a mox, it's a 4-for-4 trade (3 lands and Armageddon for 2 lands in play and 2 fetches), but my recovery is 22 lands plus 4 Crucibles in my remaining deck while he has 13-14 lands left in his. This often swings 'tempo' in my direction which is HUGE agains a deck like Thresh.

I've not seen a list of Rispal's opponent's, but if you are a good Magic player (at World's) and know your Stax deck (as I'm sure he did and many on this thread are/do), in a tournament of 100s of players of varied ability, 4-1 with a sub-optimal list is not an unreasonable outcome.

But try solving a Landstill-heavy meta, try solving a Survival-heavy meta - those are our real challenges.

Are you saying Rispal has a bad deck? the guy is playing in worlds and doing well!

how does the suggestions me a DeathScrythe made not help against landstill and survival? espcially survival. Adding a draw engine to find o ring on the survival is amazing.

[I'm a TROLL]

Armageddon needs to be included as an automatic 4-of, period. It's the trump card of the deck IMO, the one that swings the game in your favor, the one that lets you breathe a sigh of relief after it resolves. Plus its the feared card of the deck, the one your opponent hates to see resolve.

jazzykat, I don't think Tangle Wire is really all that great in this deck. I've tested with four of them in my Angel Stax build (which basically had more Angels and Wraths instead of Armageddons), and they just end up being annoying on your side of the table. Plus, Angel does her job by buying you more time as well, as she can regain life lost to Ancient Tomb.

Also, I'm a strong supporter of making the deck as consistent as possible, playing only 4-ofs of cards essential to the deck instead of throwing in random silver bullets. Like others have said before, the deck has no tutors and no draw, so the single of double copies of Moat/Kor Haven/etc. reduce the overrall effectiveness of the deck. The only cards in my list that there are not at least 4 of are Exalted Angels (the win condition anyway) and Mishra's Factory (I couldn't fit in any more with the tight land structure, even with 26 lands). I feel four of each card makes the deck much more solid, albeit a little less versatile to feared decks. Have faith in what the deck is supposed to do.

But if you have a draw engine you can set up a large armageddon. You only need to find one!

[The Wes]

Angel stax and Geddon stax arn't the same thing. Geddon stax relies on geddons and tabernacle effects along with prisons to keep creatures at bay, not quite what the list you linked to does. The point of this deck is to set up a geddon.

So, out of the at least 4 geddon stax lists on the page you linked, one (that looks pretty damn subpar) agrees with you. The other 3 using at least 4 geddons. Thanks for the help.

I have to agree with Fred Bear pretty much 100%. More quality ideas, less crap. Consistency wins games.

[I'm a TROLL]

Angel stax and Geddon stax arn't the same thing. Geddon stax relies on geddons and tabernacle effects along with prisons to keep creatures at bay, not quite what the list you linked to does. The point of this deck is to set up a geddon.

So, out of the at least 4 geddon stax lists on the page you linked, one (that looks pretty damn subpar) agrees with you. The other 3 using at least 4 geddons. Thanks for the help.

I have to agree with Fred Bear pretty much 100%. More quality ideas, less crap. Consistency wins games.


I just said set up geddon. I also linked the wizard Chris Coppola's lst that doesnt use geddon. I wont even go that far, but you should get the idea.

[The Wes]

But your changes make you less able to get a geddon, less able to make the best of a geddon, less able to recover from a geddon. Also Linkin Pac makes some going points, though I do think some one ofs and two ofs in the land structure can be allowed. Chris Coppala's deck also doesn't use tabernacle effects or prisons and relies on wrath, a little different.

[I'm a TROLL]

But your changes make you less able to get a geddon, less able to make the best of a geddon, less able to recover from a geddon. Also Linkin Pac makes some going points, though I do think some one ofs and two ofs in the land structure can be allowed. Chris Coppala's deck also doesn't use tabernacle effects or prisons and relies on wrath, a little different.

No, i'm playing a draw engine. I play 2 horizion canopy. I draw more cards than you and set up better than you,

[The Wes]

Actually, I play 1 horizon canopy, and have since it came out. It doesn't provide early game draw, only mid to late at the expense of a land drop. I play more geddon effects and half your draw engine. I'm betting that leads to being able to geddon consistently earlier more often.

[I'm a TROLL]

Actually, I play 1 horizon canopy, and have since it came out. It doesn't provide early game draw, only mid to late at the expense of a land drop. I play more geddon effects and half your draw engine. I'm betting that leads to being able to geddon consistently earlier more often.

One of the most important things about this deck is knowing when to geddon. I think you maybe panic and hit the armageddon button. this is not necessary and be sure you dont panic and cast armageddon randomly. you shouyld focus on setting up the board first and not worry.

[Nihil Credo]

No, i'm playing a draw engine. I play 2 horizion canopy. I draw more cards than you and set up better than you,
Calling 2 Horizon Canopy a draw engine is like calling 2 Krosan Tuskers mana acceleration.

Also, weren't you the one advocating cutting a Crucible? Bad Magic, indeed.

[I'm a TROLL]

Calling 2 Horizon Canopy a draw engine is like calling 2 Krosan Tuskers mana acceleration.

Also, weren't you the one advocating cutting a Crucible? Bad Magic, indeed.

I always have a crucible and two crucibles is really bad. Unless you are suggesting adding a way to play another land a turn, I dont see how this helps.

[The Wes]

Once again, with all the lock pieces geddon stax is supposed to be playing, hitting the geddon button what it wants to do. It is designed to geddon and be able to capitalize on it. I've played geddonstax for over 2 years now in legacy in both the midwest and the east coast, I help'd design the geddon stax deck with a friend that won starcity's online tourney two winters ago and it overall hasn't changed much. I'm not sayign all my ideas are the absolute best or anything, but I'm saying I've played this deck a pretty damn long time and I'm pretty sure I dont' just panic and cast armageddon randomly.

Oh, and LOL to Nihil...

Also, please look up consistency. People will destroy your crucible or you can sac the extra to smokestack, either way, you always want one.

[Nihil Credo]

I always have a crucible
Four-leaf clover, marked cards or Rosemary's Baby-style pact?

Unless you are suggesting adding a way to play another land a turn, I dont see how this helps.
It doesn't help. It just dismantles this claim:

I play 2 horizion canopy. I draw more cards than you and set up better than you
Those 2 Canopies (which, for the record, I'm not in principle opposed to) certainly don't make you better than Wes at setting up Armageddon. Particularly not when you play three freaking Crucibles.

[The Wes]

Ok, then real question, not trying to be meant or anything, only trying to understand your deck. What list are you currently playing? How does it play against some of our harder matchups, such as landstill or survival? Why play a larger variety over more consistency?

[T is for TOOL]

It seems several people have forgotten some of the basic forum rules of the Source.

1. Don't double post.
2. Proper grammar and spelling are expected.
3. Posts lacking content are not acceptable.
4. Inflammatory posts are not acceptable.

If anyone keeps it up I WILL start handing out infractions.
-TOOL

[Skeggi]

Good morning everyone, I'm awake and ready to jump back in the fray :)


Armageddon needs to be included as an automatic 4-of, period. It's the trump card of the deck IMO, the one that swings the game in your favor, the one that lets you breathe a sigh of relief after it resolves. Plus its the feared card of the deck, the one your opponent hates to see resolve.

Plus it has a pretty cool name! :cool:


Four-leaf clover, marked cards or Rosemary's Baby-style pact?

Teach me, master! ;)

Back on topic:


But if you have a draw engine you can set up a large armageddon. You only need to find one!

What do you mean by a large Armageddon? Let the opponent actually have over 3 lands and risk the chance of them casting (alot of) stuff? I'd rather not give them that chance. Early Armageddon shuts your opponent down, you win, they lose and cry.

[I'm a TROLL]

I'd like to refer to this:


I love how so many people have forgotten than stax is a tempo deck (not the popular catch up "geddon at pendrell vale") and that by cutting tangle wire, they forfeit one of the best tempo cards in the game.

Taken from the thread "[Deck] Twisted Metal - reviving mono-brown/silver Stax" while we are not playing that exactly, the principles are exactly the same. Our lock is generated easier, we have way more versatility, and we actually have a draw engine Of course we have access to better lock peices, but the concept is the same!!


Good morning everyone, I'm awake and ready to jump back in the fray :)



Plus it has a pretty cool name! :cool:



Teach me, master! ;)

Back on topic:



What do you mean by a large Armageddon? Let the opponent actually have over 3 lands and risk the chance of them casting (alot of) stuff? I'd rather not give them that chance. Early Armageddon shuts your opponent down, you win, they lose and cry.

Sort of. I think we need to look more towards our friend Jonathan Rispal who went 4-1 at worlds. I don't know if people are just too lazy to look him up the list or what so I'll post it:

Main Deck

60 cards

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Plains
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Tundra
4 Wasteland

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
26 lands


3 Magus of the Tabernacle

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 creatures

1 Armageddon
2 Bottled Cloister
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ravages of War
4 Smokestack
2 Tangle Wire
4 Trinisphere

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
31 other spells


Notice how he was able to take the deck and run well without relying on armageddon or crucible and he doesnt even have exhaulted angel to back him up. With the angel in the deck we have a great win conditoin that flies and has life link. we play a bit of fast mana to get us going thus i say we can cut back on a couple smokestax. I also always forget the bottled cloister as a draw engine. It seems everygame I have the crucible/horizoin canopy but I also play a couple cloister

[Skeggi]

I also always forget the bottled cloister as a draw engine. It seems everygame I have the crucible/horizoin canopy but I also play a couple cloister

Yes, I've seen the list, and I'm convinced that if he had more Armageddons he might have gone 5-0, but that's all speculation so I'll leave it at that.

Anyway, I'm pretty reluctant to even try Bottled Cloister, it's simply too fragile: the risk of losing your hand in the RFG zone is too big.



1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Tundra
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor


Gemstone Caverns and Tundra are obviously to fuel Engineered Explosives. You have to know: Engineered Explosives = outdated tech. The Enlightened Tutor is debatable, but too often a dead card imo: actually there's more against it than to include it.

Point being: I'm doubting that list. Alot.

[Aleksandr]

I'd like to refer to this:



exhaulted angel



It starts to suck - once we learn to spell Threshold correctly, we promptly find another nonsense.

[Fred Bear]

Bad Magic,

To a certain degree, I was saying that the Rispal maindeck is a bad list - IN GENERAL. I would never use it as a starting point for testing and I don't think that my testing would send me down any of the same roads. IN GENERAL, I would estimate that his plan was to give himself a 35-55% chance against the field in game 1 and then allow himself to board into the consistency that we are all searching for (or board in a toolbox for the specific opponent). Many of his selections are questionable-to-bad in my opinion... Gemstone Caverns? Tundra (just to support EE for 3-4, I guess)? 4 Flagstones and only 5 Plains? Enlightened Tutor + 4 Chalice? etc. I DO NOT think Rispal is a bad player, but I'm guessing that he used his playskill to his advantage with a list like this. And, again, I have never seen who his opponents were. 4-1 against a field of that size says nothing about deck quality (over 50 decks were 4-1 or better, including everything from Landstill-to-Aluren-to-Belcher-to-Whatever).

In regards to specific choices...

Gemstone Caverns is terrible. The effect is arguably ok 50% of the time, you only draw a 1-of 12% of the time (6% you will see the effect). In Stax, this will cost you a card to provide an additional colored mana on your turn 1. We play a mono-colored deck and 7-8 2-mana lands and 4 Mox Diamonds. Why waste your time with Gemstone Caverns?

Bottled Cloister wins the award for best looking card on paper. It's a permanent... It's an artifact... It only costs 4 mana... It draws you a card per turn... It's just as good in multiples... BUT... Krosan Grip exists, Vindicate exists, etc. etc. I'm the first to admit that you shouldn't not play cards because of the answer, but Stax works because it provides inevitability (You WILL win, eventually). All draw engines do is speed up the process. If I'm in position to win and I play a draw engine, the engine is 'win-more' and you could probably get better mileage out of other lock pieces. If I'm working to set up my lock, I want an engine that doesn't come with this kind of risk (would you trade your hand for the potential of an extra card for a couple of turns). I'm not saying it isn't great in certain situations, but in general it is sub-par.

Horizon Canopy. I'm with Nihil in that I'm not completely against them, but as a 1- or 2-of, please stop refering to them as a 'draw-engine'. You have a 50% of seeing one by turn 11 playing it as a 2-of and it doesn't become an 'engine' unless you have at least 4 other mana sources (1 for the Canopy activation plus 3+ to play a permanent) and a Crucible out (to replay the Canopy). Again, you will speed up your inevitability late game at best, otherwise, it's a random effect.

Tangle Wire is another odd card. It's awesome in Vintage. It blows in Legacy. I shouldn't say that, there are a couple of situations where it is very good in Legacy, but against 90% of the field - it blows. It does nothing to slow down Goblins without other support. It does nothing to slow down Threshold without other support. In nearly every situation, it requires another card/permanent to provide any type of useful effect. If we had the ability to play, say 5 free, mana-producing artifacts, we'd be in business - sadly we don't get those jewels.

Enlightened Tutor is extremely anti-synergistic with the goal of the deck. Chalice at 1 on turn 1 is probably one of the strongest plays Stax will make in our format. After that, Enlightened Tutor is a dead draw. Trinisphere on turn 1 is another, obviously, strong play for Stax. A tutor for 3 is slow but has potential. A tutor for 3 that costs a card and a draw is unplayable. Stax relies on creating situations of virtual card advantage. Playing cards that are REAL card disadvantage is just plain bad.

I could criticize the list all day, but that's not my point. My point is that Rispal's list is NOT a typical Armageddon Stax list and shouldn't be refered to as such. Pointing to a list which isn't your own and defending choices with 'he's a good player because he was at World's' does little for the discussion. I desperately want to make my Stax list better (I don't care that I don't make a lot of friends playing it), but I've (and many others here) have put a lot of effort into my list and can explain the 'why' better than 'trust me' or 'it just works'. I've tested all the cards (except Gemstone Caverns, I mean c'mon) Rispal used and I can tell you why I still play some and why I don't consider others unless I know certain things about the meta I'm playing going to be playing against.

To the Stax community,

I do like to see what people are having success with in the Stax shell, but I think we all need to be able to tell what works against the field and what works against a specific deck/meta situation. Armageddon works against the field... Suppression Field works against certain decks/metas... Maybe as a collective we could list out the cards we have each tried and where they work and don't work.

-FB...

[Skeggi]

I agree on all of Fred's points listed above. So I guess this is a +1 :tongue:

[The Wes]

Extremely well thought out post Fred Bear, and I have to agree with you. +2

I think we should, like you said, work on defining what the shell of stax is, and what cards have been tested and shown to work better in one meta over another. We could start by havine one person post a list of the cards, and just keep updating it with tested cards. I'd be up for posting a list of all the cards I've tried and what they've worked well with/against tomorrow, and people could just pm me and I'd update the list as more cards and reasoning were added. Sound like a plan? Just might make it easier than having multiple lists.

[Skeggi]

I think we should, like you said, work on defining what the shell of stax is.

I'll give it a shot:

Nonland Musts:

3-4 Tabernacle Effect: either 3 Magus (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/8.html) (+ 1 Land (http://magiccards.info/lg/en/252.html)), or 2 Magus + 1 or 2 Land...or 3 or 4 Magus if you don't have the land ;)
3-4 Trinisphere (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/154.html)
4 Mox Diamond (http://magiccards.info/sh/en/132.html)
4-6 Geddon (http://magiccards.info/4e/en/255.html) Effects (http://magiccards.info/p3k/en/17.html)
4-6 Prison Effects (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/10.html) (extra effects via Windborn Muse (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/60.html))
4 Crucible of Worlds (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/319.html)
4 Chalice of the Void (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/150.html)
3-4 Smokestack (http://magiccards.info/us/en/309.html)

Land Musts:

3-4 Flagstones of Trokair (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/272.html)
6-8 Plains (http://magiccards.info/euro/en/9.html)
2-4 Mishra's Factory (http://magiccards.info/4e/en/181.html)
2-4 Wasteland (http://magiccards.info/mprp/en/1.html)
4 Ancient Tomb (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/305.html)
3-4 City of Traitors (http://magiccards.info/ex/en/143.html)

Optional non-land:

2-4 Exalted Angel (http://magiccards.info/jr/en/26.html)
2-4 Oblivion Ring (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/34.html)
1-2 Moat (http://magiccards.info/lg/en/197.html)
1-2 Cataclysm (http://magiccards.info/ex/en/3.html) (only if you're running 4 Geddon)
2-3 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)
1-2 Humility (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/236.html)

Optional Land:

1-2 Horizon Canopy (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/177.html)
1 Kor Haven (http://magiccards.info/ne/en/141.html)
1 Maze of Ith (http://magiccards.info/dk/en/114.html)
1 God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai (http://magiccards.info/bok/en/164.html)
1 Ghost Quarter (http://magiccards.info/di/en/173.html)
1-2 Darksteel Citadel (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/164.html)
1-2 Blinkmoth Nexus (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/163.html) depending on your Mishra's Factory count.

Sideboard suggestions:

Suppression Field (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/31.html)
Tormod's Crypt (http://magiccards.info/ch/en/89.html)
Wheel of Sun and Moon (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/243.html)
Defense Grid (http://magiccards.info/8e/en/296.html)
Rule of Law (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/37.html)
Aura of Silence (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/6.html)
Seal of Cleansing (http://magiccards.info/fnmp/en/57.html)
Karmic Justice (http://magiccards.info/od/en/26.html)
Pithing Needle (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/338.html)
Powder Keg (http://magiccards.info/mprp/en/3.html)
Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)
Aven Mindcensor (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/18.html)
Sphere of Resistance (http://magiccards.info/ex/en/139.html)
Silent Arbiter (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/150.html)
Sphere of Law (http://magiccards.info/od/en/50.html)
Ethersworn Canonist (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/10.html)

Cards you probably want in your sideboard if you don't run them MB:

Oblivion Ring (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/34.html)
Exalted Angel (http://magiccards.info/jr/en/26.html)
Windborn Muse (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/60.html)

These look tempting, but better not include these:

Bottled Cloister (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/256.html)
Ensnaring Bridge (http://magiccards.info/7e/en/294.html) (only good with Bottled Cloister, and as pointed out above, you don't want that)
Tangle Wire (http://magiccards.info/ne/en/139.html)
Wrath of God (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/61.html)
Nomad Stadium (http://magiccards.info/od/en/322.html)
Drifting Meadow (http://magiccards.info/at/en/61.html)/Secluded Steppe (http://magiccards.info/on/en/324.html)
Zoetic Cavern (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/180.html)
Forbidding Watchtower (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/352.html)
Icatian Store (http://magiccards.info/5e/en/423.html)
Rishadan Port (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/324.html)
Mutavault (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/148.html)
Karoo (and other white 2-mana bounce lands) (http://magiccards.info/vi/en/165.html)
Stalking Stones (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/284.html)
Academy Ruins (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/269.html)
Tezzeret (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/60.html)
Scourglass (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/25.html)
Calciform Pools (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/270.html) (and other Time Spiral Storage lands)
New Benalia (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/172.html)
Chub Toad (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/117.html)

As a rule of thumb: any land that comes into play tapped is considered bad for this deck.

Testworthy:

Elspeth, Knight-Errant (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/9.html)
Ajani, Vengeant (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/154.html)
Battlegrace Angel (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/6.html)

=============================================================================================================

Any comments or additions? What did I forget?

Edit: I've made every card clickable...yes, I was bored :) --Not bored enough to arrange it alphabetically...yet

[Nihil Credo]

Any comments or aditions? What did I forget?
That looks pretty good. Here are my ideas:

Even though I'm a very strong supporter of four maindeck Exalted Angels, I don't think they're absolutely mandatory, so I'd put them as 0-4. Pithing Needle should be in the sideboard, since it's perfectly valid as a more all-in replacement for Suppression Field. A singleton maindeck Ghost Quarter is also a serious option (for Blood Moon-vulnerable metagames, and probably for Angel-less builds). Also, while the fall of Empty the Warrens has made Keg/EE inferior to Disenchant effects, they're still worth mentioning.

[Shawon]

Add Aven Mindcensor to the 'optional' list.

[Skeggi]

Seems more like a sideboard card to me...

[Shawon]

Yeah, that's what I meant to say, sry.

[klaus]

Land:
0-1 Nomad Stadium,

SB options:
0-2 Sphere of Resistence (in a combo heavy meta - in case that exists)
0-2 Silent Arbiter
Sphere of Law (0-2)
(It's really good against goblins, burn, Dragon Stompy etc.)
Windborn Muse is also more of a SB card to me. (0-2) - only in addition with Cataclysm

-- actually most MD cards can be played in the SB, Exalted for instance.
So maybe those options should be dropped for the sake of clarity.

Also, as the list grows it might make sense to put the cards in alphabetical order.

[Skeggi]

Also, as the list grows it might make sense to put the cards in alphabetical order.

Oh joy...ah well, I have no life anyway...

[I'm a TROLL]

I'll give it a shot:

Nonland Musts:

4 Tabernacle Effect: either 3 Magus + 1 Land, or 2 Magus + 2 Land...or 4 Magus if you don't have the land ;)
3-4 Trinisphere
4 Mox Diamond
4-6 Geddon Effects
4-6 Prison Effects (extra effects via Windborn Muse)
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3-4 Smokestack

Land Musts:

3-4 Flagstones of Trokair
6-7 Plains
2-4 Mishra's Factory
2-4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3-4 City of Traitors

Optional non-land:

2-4 Exalted Angel
2-4 Oblivion Ring
1-2 Moat
1-2 Cataclysm (only if you're running 4 Geddon)

Optional Land:

1-2 Horizon Canopy
1 Kor Haven
1 Maze of Ith
1 God's Eye to the Reikai
1 Ghost Quarter

Sideboard suggestions:

Suppression Field
Tormod's Crypt
Defense Grid
Oblivion Ring (if you're not running it mainboard)
Defense Grid
Rule of Law
Aura of Silence
Seal of Cleansing
Karmic Justice
Pithing Needle
Powder Keg
Engineered Explosives
Aven Mindcensor

These look tempting, but better not include these:

Bottled Cloister
Tangle Wire
Wrath of God
Chub Toad

Any comments or aditions? What did I forget?

Nonland

4 Creature Tabernacle - The creature Tabernacle is like always better than the land. Land is overpriced anyway
3 Trinisphere is good
4 Mox Diamond? - If you already have room for other versatility I guess but I much perfer some business spell here like Maze of the Ith or O RIng
4-6 Geddon efects? - Much too high becaus I dont panic and randomly cast a geddon effect. I currently play three and never get screwd
4-6 Prison effects? - At least! I just upped the count to 7 as this is key to the deck!
4 Crucible? - I play 3. Your number is too high generally because I play a draw engine and you dont. So I can see why you have to rely on stuff like this as you get outdrawn every game
4 Chalice! - Duh!
3-4 Smokestax - Depends on your other versatility. I usually go between 2 and 3, but usually 2 and I have more prison effects and a draw engine

Land

3-4 Flagstones? - If you like tempo screw run this many. I highly recomend running only 2!!
6-7 Plains - ok
2-4 Mishra's Factory - I run 2 Factory and 2 Blinkmoth nexus. The Blinkmoth is almost always better so I'm thinking about making this a permanant switch. Nexus fights the mirror's Exaulted Dragons and also Mystic Enforcer
2-4 Wasteland - Depends on my mood kinda, but usually you need at least one Ghost Quarter whcih is another reason I dont need 4-6 geddon effects
4 ancient tomb, 3 city of traitors - this fluctuates at times too but if you don't know what you are doing run this config I guess

Optional non-land

2-4 Exaulted Angel? - are you kidding? Angel is amazing in this deck how can you not run at least 3?
2-4 O Ring? - optional? this is a pure white vindicate! run as many as you can sneak in!!
1-2 Moat - this card is usually bad so play it if you like to lose to seige gang commander, grim lavamancer, exhalted angel, akroma, radkos pit dragon, sea drake, CLOUD OF FAERIES, etc.. among the many things i've lost to while playing this card. The tabernacle effects and prison effects are way betetr dont' get me started here!
1-2 Cataclysim - Terrible card if you play o ring, otherwise spectauler

Optional Land?

1-2 Horizon Canaopy? - Unless you don't like draw engines and enjoy getting outdrawn every game play 0-1. I am so happy with 2 it is great!
1 Kor Haven - blows compared to Maze of Ith
Maze of Ith - very, very solid I run this as a 1 of with 1 in the side board
God's Eye - surprizingly useful. a respectable choice
1 Ghost Quarter. - this card is no option. you must play at least 1, maybe 2. unless you reply on armageddon all day, which maybe you do

Looks tempting???!

Bottled Cloister - is amazing but I guess everyone else doesnt like a draw engine that is good against discard. my bad. Combine this with Horizon Cannopy and the deck becomes amazing!

Tangle wire - be advised: for those who get the deck only. Right because in combonation with prison and tabernacle effect this is useless! Yeah right! By itself it's like a draw engine !

Chub Toad?

I'd also like to recomend Ensnaring Bridge as it goes with 1/2 of your draw engine

[The Wes]

My main problem with Bottled Cloister is that it always seems to get destroyed and there goes my hand. It is great against discard strategies, but lots of them splash w and vindicates. Oh tangle wire, if only we had lots of free mana sources like type 1.

Nice job Skeggi, lets keep up the quality work in this forum. I'll post some of my results with the optional cards tomorrow hopefully.

[Fred Bear]

I'll start spewing forth my data on all the cards I've tested... It'll take a few days because of length...

Lands

General Comments...

I find the deck to perform most consistently when playing 24 to 25 lands. I really wish we could get away with a couple less, but Diamonds lose their effectiveness as the land count dwindles and big openings provide massive tempo advantage with Stax. I have tweaked my personal numbers to my style and my general set-up. I think the deck is very customizable and I have tried a number of options to investigate what works and when...

My Top Picks...

Flagstones of Trokair - I play 4. They are the equivalent of Plains. The only time I wished I played less is when my opponent already has one. Awesome with Smokestack Lock. You can play less, I guess...

Wasteland - I play 3. Situationally broken. 4 always seemed unecessary and I often found myself just using them for mana. Retarded with Crucible. One of my favorite plays is to 'waste' a fetch, have it be countered, and then Armageddon...

Ancient Tomb - I play 4. This is automatic, in my opinion. If you choose to play less than 4, you are hurting the deck. This is probably one of the few cards where I can't imagine a reason why you would run less...

City of Traitors - I play 3. Not quite an automatic 4-of. Double City openers are almost unplayable without Crucible. I found 3 to be the right number...

Plains - I play 8. I will sometimes only play 7 and go for another spell. You obviously need basic Plains, I prefer Unglued...

Mishra's Factory - I play 3. A recurrable win condition that can't be countered... I shouldn't have to explain any more. I have tested down to 2 and up to 4. I didn't find it as useful as other lands as a 4-of. And 2 can lengthen games to an unbearable point. 2 is doable, though...

Testers...

The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - I tested 1-2. Non-mana producing lands are great since they can't be countered. 90% of the decks you need this against can't counter the Magus. The Magus can beat (act as a win condition). Tabernacles have to take up 'spell' slots. A 2/6 with this ability is better...

Maze of Ith - I tested 1-2. 2 non-mana producers is too much. I hate 1-ofs because of their inconsistency. Effective against the 1-big guy plan. Sucks pretty much everywhere else...

Kor Haven - I tested 1-2. Maze of Ith that produces mana. High cost for a Maze, though. Maze is basically 1 per turn once it is played. Kor Haven is 3 just when you want the effect. If I play Haven/Maze as my fourth land and intend to stop a 'Goyf/Negator for 3 turns... Maze costs 3 and Haven costs 9. I have not found Haven to be nearly as good as some have claimed it to be...

Gods' Eye Gate to the Rekai - I tested 1-2. Two is lousy since they are not synergistic in multiples like Flagstones. One is, of course, random. There are a lot of tricks to keep a Smokestack at 2 or higher, but they are just that - tricks. The times that they are necessary, you are trying to catch up and NEED the effect. random + need =/ good times. These are AWESOME in the mirror, though, since it breaks Crucible parity...

Ghost Quarter - I tested 1-2. Playing 2 makes you realize that this card is NOT wasteland. Playing 1 makes it feel like you are playing extra Wastelands. It will situationally feel like you are playing Strip Mine. I'm happy with 3 Wastelands, so it never made it to worthwhile. I could see using a couple in a build that really focused on Land Destruction. This may sound odd, but the Armageddon focus feeds into the 'taxation' theme - you don't care if your opponent has land, you just don't want him to be able to do anything with it...

Horizon Canopy - I've tested 1-3. 1 is random and feels like a waste of time/space. When you get it, you use it and it seems really good. If you don't see it, you either say you needed it because you lost or you don't notice it because you won. 2 feels like playing 1 extra win condition, since you just find a win condition a little faster. In a deck that seems to play so tight, I always felt like you were just better off saving the slots and increasing the number of actual win conditions. Playing 3, you notice the effect for sure - both of them. For me, drawing an extra card is nice when it's a card you needed. With no 'selection', I found it to be an effect that worked best once I had a lock, but then I was going to win anyways. Another way to think of it is to look at the 'engine' - Canopy + Crucible + 1 other land/mox = 3 card combo to draw 1 extra card per turn for 1 mana (since you get the Canopy back with Crucible). Aside from being a 3-card combo, it's not a bad effect - 1 card for 1 mana - except that it also costs you your land drop. If you 'break' the engine, you are basically drawing 1 card for 2 mana and sac a land. The point is - it's nice, but it's a very inefficient card draw source and the time/resources could probably be used in a more productive way...

Nomad Stadium - I tested 1-2. Waste of time...

Darksteel Citadel - I tested 1-2. Neat trick. This is another one that if you expect a mirror - this really skews the symmetry...

Drifting Meadow/Secluded Steppe - I tested 1-2. Not useful enough. Cycling is much, much better with Loam than Crucible (obviously)...

Zoetic Cavern - I tested 1-2. Weaker Factory. Can't come back as a creature which sucks...

Forbidding Watchtower - I tested 1-2. Sucks...

Calciform Pools (and other Time Spiral Storage lands) - I tested 1-2. It didn't suck, but I couldn't come up with a good use for the mana. Paying 2 for 1 mana on another turn seems like a good thing for this deck, I just couldn't seem to find what I needed it for...

Icatian Store - I tested 1-2. Sucks...

Karoo (and other white 2-mana bounce lands) - I tested 1-2. Too often you want to use your mana the turn you play it with this deck. You could really come up with a bastardized mana base to bounce a cycler or something. Too much 'neat' and not enough 'git 'er done'...

Mutavault - I tested 1-2. I didn't find the need for a 'worse' Factory...

New Benalia - I tested 1-2. Scry is nice but not worth the come into play tapped. This is, however, still good off Crucible and actually makes a nice little engine with Crucible/Smokestack/Tabernacle...

Rishadan Port - I tested 1-3. Too slow with Armageddon...

Stalking Stones - I tested 1-2. Sucks...

I think, short of splashes, that's all the different lands that I have tested in the deck at various points. What bothers me about the testing is that there are really only a couple of slots for 'better' lands in this deck, so making a change that maintains some sort of consistency is tough to say the least...

-FB...

[Brehn]

Nonland Musts:

4 Tabernacle Effect

Is this really a must? I've found Tabernacle effects to be underwhelming in almost every non-strict-aggro matchup lately, so I will be testing a list with only 2 effects main and some additional ones in the board. What do you think about this?

[Fred Bear]

Is this really a must? I've found Tabernacle effects to be underwhelming in almost every non-strict-aggro matchup lately, so I will be testing a list with only 2 effects main and some additional ones in the board. What do you think about this?

I play 3 maindeck Magus and 1 sideboard. Magus is one of the first spots that I look to side out since the effect is weak against anything not aggro or goblin token oriented. As long as the lock piece you are dropping him for is 'more appropriate' for you meta, it's entirely reasonable.

-FB...

[The Wes]

I'd say 3-4 tabernacle effects is pretty much a must have, they just help so much with ghostly or mess with peoples tempo nicely. They do get sb'd out in strickly non-agro matches often. FYI I run 2 magus, 2 lands.

[Clark Kant]

I recently thru this deck together and so far, I really enjoy play 4 Magus and 2-4 Windborn Muse over 2 Exalted Angel.

Locking down your opponent with 6-8 Ghostly Prison, 4 Tabernacle and 4 Armageddon seems a lot more powerful, and shutting down your opponent's attack phase completely is crazy strong and just as good at preserving your life total.

So who here runs Exalted Angel, and who opts for Windborn Muse or something else instead?

[jazzykat]

I know everyone has dismissed it but in my limited testing without angels and with tangle wires i was liking the results. I never play against goblins and I will grant you that against a swarm deck it is not that hot, but it taps down control's mana early on to push through an extra threat. I like the tempo it can generate. That said I am not an expert, and other testers have had poor results...caveat emptor. I guess, if you are in an aggro light meta give it a shot!

BTW this is the most mature and productive thread I have seen in quite a while!!!!

[Skeggi]

A very nice post there FB, I think that clears alot up for alot of us, however:


The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - I tested 1-2. Non-mana producing lands are great since they can't be countered. 90% of the decks you need this against can't counter the Magus. The Magus can beat (act as a win condition). Tabernacles have to take up 'spell' slots. A 2/6 with this ability is better...

Your last sentence here: a 2/6 with this ability is better; I think this assumption is flawed: it is a 2/6 which obviously costs 4 mana more to play, and has an upkeep of 1. Given, you save your landdrop, but the land allows you to Geddon+Tabernacle, the Magus simply is too expensive for this trick.


Is this really a must? I've found Tabernacle effects to be underwhelming in almost every non-strict-aggro matchup lately, so I will be testing a list with only 2 effects main and some additional ones in the board. What do you think about this?

In a known meta with enough aggro, or a random unknown meta, I'd bring 4 Tabernacle effects. If your meta is full of Breakfast, TES, Fetchland Tendrils, Ichorid and the like, you may want to play Thresh or Landstill ;) I'll adjust to 3-4 though.


So who here runs Exalted Angel, and who opts for Windborn Muse or something else instead?

I run 2 Exalted Angels and 2 Muses. Prison effects are nice, I know, but once you play a Geddon, 1 Prison effect suffices. You must also not underestimate the Exalted Angel, once on table, it may be one of the best creatures in the current meta. It has evasion and pounds, so it sets a nice clock, plus, if you read back a couple of pages, you can read about the 'Angel-lock': if your opponent doesn't hit you for at least 4 life per turn, his chances of ever winning are very slim; but in the meantime, the angel stomps him for 4 life: meaning the Angel creates an 8-life gap every turn. This is huge.


I know everyone has dismissed it but in my limited testing without angels and with tangle wires i was liking the results.

Can you give me an example of your play? Most people I know have come to the conclusion Tangle Wire sucks throughout the entire format.


BTW this is the most mature and productive thread I have seen in quite a while!!!!

Yup, thanks to T is for Tool :)

[dragzz]

Took this deck to a 21 Man tourney in my area,
Went 4 - 1 - 1 and landed 3 place.

And I must say I'm particularly fond of Armageddon Stax, haven't had that much fun in a while.

I believe Armageddon Stax's list is pretty much standard, with cards being cut/added depending on your preference, play style and meta.

What I'm more concerned is the sideboards options. Most seems pretty obvious, but i find it hard to come-up with a solid list that would be viable to an unknown meta?

Here's what I played.
4 LoTV - I couldn't find my Crypts so I had to play with these, luckily I didn't have to use them.
3 Suppression Field - Godsend in matches that I boarded them in, particularly vs Rifter, should have mattered vs. Slivers.
2 Aura of Silence - Again another great card, boarded them in vs Affinity and Rifter.
3 Seal of Cleansing - So, so... I didn't really have that much cards to play with so I had to do with these.
1 Magus of the Tabernacle - Had 3 MD, just in case I needed a fourth.
2 Exalted Angel - Had 2 MD, boarded them in vs rifter.

Now, with GP manila coming this month, I'm really looking forward to taking this deck to the said event, and with the unpredictability of the local meta, and the unknown decks that foreigners would probably play. I really need some input regarding on what cards should be on my sideboard.

3 Suppression field seems pretty much standard to me, as with the 2 Aura of Silence, but other than that I pretty much have 10 open sideboard slots.

Also, would there be a reason to play Wheel of Sun and Moon vs. Tormod's Crypt?

[Skeggi]

4 LoTV - I couldn't find my Crypts so I had to play with these, luckily I didn't have to use them.

Now, with GP manila coming this month, I'm really looking forward to taking this deck to the said event, and with the unpredictability of the local meta, and the unknown decks that foreigners would probably play. I really need some input regarding on what cards should be on my sideboard.

Also, would there be a reason to play Wheel of Sun and Moon vs. Tormod's Crypt?

First off, congratulations on your third place :smile:

What's a LoTV?

For sideboard suggestions; check my post a bit up in this thread:
Press the blue thing! Here! ^^^

Yes, there are various reasons to play Wheel of Sun and Moon over Tormod's Crypt:

Reason #1: PainterStone - however this leads to a draw - you'd rather board in your Suppression Fields and Auras of Silence.
Reason #2: there is not chance for your opponent to recover the GY as long as Wheel is in play: Tormod's Crypt is a 1-shot thing.
Reason #3: unaffected by Pithing Needle

The reason not to run Wheel of Sun and Moon is obviously the WW in it's casting cost; and a bit more far-fetched: the chance of you playing a chalice@2 is bigger than you playing a chalice@0.

[Nihil Credo]

Your last sentence here: a 2/6 with this ability is better; I think this assumption is flawed: it is a 2/6 which obviously costs 4 mana more to play, and has an upkeep of 1. Given, you save your landdrop, but the land allows you to Geddon+Tabernacle, the Magus simply is too expensive for this trick.
I'd say the main point in favour of Magus is that it, alone, usually handles a single Tarmogoyf while Rishadan Porting the opponent.

The same thing incidentally applies to Exalted Angel. There is often little difference between lifegain and Maze of Ith effects.


LotV = Leyline of the Void

And I'm pretty sure there's no reason to play any graveyard hate in the sideboard of Stax, since every graveyard deck out there is just as if not more affected by other, more versatile hate (usually Suppression Field, Pithing Needle, or extra taxing effects)

[dragzz]

Thanks Skeggi

Sorry about that, LotV = Leyline of the Void -> Not really useful but I had to play with what I got at the time. :)

I did notice your post, but the thing is I'm preparing for a meta that's pretty much unpredictable. So I need a sideboard that could provide me the most versatility, something that could work against most meta.

I'm thinking along the lines of:
3 Suppression Field
2 Aura of Silence
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 Karmic Justice - > I'm unsure if its really needed because I haven't seen someone in the last few tournies I joined/watched play deeds.
3 Oblivion Rings

Anyway, I'll be playing the deck again tomorrow, if the tourney scheduled pushes through, let you know how it did for me.

Oh, btw, I really like Silent Arbiter, seems like a fun fun card to play. But should it be played vs say Windborn muse? seems like the two technically functions as Ghostly Prison 5-6.

[Skeggi]

I prefer Windborn Muse WAY over Silent Arbiter. But that's because I have Trygon Predator trauma :tongue: Silent Arbiter would work very nice with Maze of Ith or Kor Haven ofcourse. If you're not runnig those, I don't see a reason to run Silent Arbiter over the Muse.

Nihil is right: you should probably spend those 3 Wheel of Sun and Moon slots on something else.

If you're not sure about the Karmic Justice, cut them back to 2 or 3.

P.S. yeah, Leyline of the Void in Armageddon Stax...lawl ;)

[Fred Bear]

I must say, I'm really impressed with how this conversation is evolving... Lots of great ideas...

I'll post my creatures list later, but to respond to some of the conversation over the last day...

Windborn Muse - Yes, she will act like additional Ghostly Prisons. And she will be removed more often and more easily. Paying 4 for a 'more fragile' Ghostly Prison is ok if you really need more than 4. I think it's a meta/personal call. I've always found that in those situations, it's generally better to play 'actual' removal (EE, O-Ring, even Wrath). Another way to think of it... You should only try so hard to 'slow' your opponent down before it's actually better to just 'deal' with the problem...

Tangle Wire - Great against true control decks (Landstill & MUC). Sucks everywhere else. If you face a lot of control, play it. If you don't, don't waste the space. It was considered an auto-include in early versions of the deck and considerable testing went into it. Good players know how to play around it with decks like Thresh and Goblins. You will only get the advantage against decks that play significantly less permanents than you.

Skeggi - You're right, it's difficult and rare when you get to Armageddon and then lay a Magus all in one turn. But the number of times you get to play out Magus with a Mox and lands, 'Port' your opponent for a turn, Armageddon (+ free Wrath) on the next turn, and then keep your Magus while you rebuild, is significant. It's all in how you play it. If only the land produced a mana, I'd be for playing a playset!

Sideboard Options - Leyline of the Void was actually an option against Flash, I don't think I've seen it suggested since. My best advice for sideboarding is to try and keep your options proactive. Yes, Karmic Justice is good against Deed and other sweepers. But Needle will stop Deed and lots of other cards. I really believe you need to keep your options open as much as possible. Remember, this is where you really tailor the deck to suit your needs. Lots of choices may sound silly, but are actually very, very powerful (I use Guardian of the Guildpact in mine)!

-FB...

[jazzykat]

Just something slightly funny from a MWS log: (beware teh Magi)


0:02:04 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz puts a 1/1 Goblin token into play
0:02:08 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz puts Empty the Warrens to Graveyard from Play
0:02:09 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz duplicates Goblin
0:02:11 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz duplicates Goblin
0:02:12 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz duplicates Goblin
0:02:15 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz duplicates Goblin
0:02:16 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz duplicates Goblin
0:02:16 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz duplicates Goblin
0:02:23 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz duplicates Goblin
0:02:24 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz duplicates Goblin
0:02:24 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz duplicates Goblin
0:02:24 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz duplicates Goblin
0:02:24 [Ouroboroz] Ouroboroz duplicates Goblin
0:02:25 [Ouroboroz] <Ouroboroz> End my turn
0:02:28 [jazzykat] <jazzykat> Ok
0:02:30 [jazzykat] It is now turn 3 (jazzykat)
0:02:30 [jazzykat] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:02:31 [jazzykat] It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
0:02:31 [jazzykat] It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
0:02:31 [jazzykat] jazzykat draws a card
0:02:31 [jazzykat] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
0:02:49 [jazzykat] jazzykat plays Ancient Tomb from Hand
0:02:50 [jazzykat] <jazzykat> Thinking
0:02:52 [jazzykat] jazzykat plays Mox Diamond from Hand
0:02:53 [jazzykat] jazzykat plays Ancient Tomb from Hand
0:02:57 [jazzykat] jazzykat puts Ancient Tomb to Graveyard from Play
0:03:01 [jazzykat] It is now the End Phase, End Of Turn Step
0:03:02 [jazzykat] <jazzykat> End my turn

0:03:16 [jazzykat] It is now turn 5 (jazzykat)
0:03:16 [jazzykat] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:03:17 [jazzykat] It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
0:03:18 [jazzykat] It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
0:03:18 [jazzykat] jazzykat draws a card
0:03:18 [jazzykat] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
0:03:20 [jazzykat] jazzykat plays Plains from Hand
0:03:22 [jazzykat] jazzykat taps Ancient Tomb
0:03:22 [jazzykat] jazzykat taps Mox Diamond
0:03:22 [jazzykat] jazzykat taps Plains
0:03:23 [jazzykat] jazzykat plays Magus of the Tabernacle from Hand
0:03:25 [jazzykat] jazzykat's life total is now 6 (-2)
0:03:27 [jazzykat] <jazzykat> End my turn
0:03:32 [Ouroboroz] <Ouroboroz> NO way
0:03:38 [jazzykat] <jazzykat> WAY
0:03:49 [Ouroboroz] <Ouroboroz> gg
0:03:51 [jazzykat] <jazzykat> gg
0:03:53 [<System>] <System> Player Lost

[f|i[p]]

Ahh..Im not sure where in manila you play legacy, but we haven't had a real tournament on legacy here in manila, for such a looooooooong looooong time...
Thus, the meta unpredictability.

But to be sure there will be landstill, rock, and goblins...Only a few players really play combo here.. maybe around 3 regular players out of 20,which would be namely iggy pop, salvager solidarity, there was a couple of belcher and ichorid players last time there was a tourney which was.. last year? hahah its been soo long that I don't remember...

For the foreigners, if they arent busy with standard, I wouldn't have a clue.

Although for sideboard options I would pretty much say suppression fields and karmic justices are standard..aura of silence as well..maybe as a 2 of..

I will be bringing this deck as well. Although my sideboard will not be complete by the time the tournament comes, I will have to make do with what I have.

I was actually hoping to be the only one to have this deck on the tourney as I have never seen a stax player in legacy around here for 3 or more years. Where in Manila do you actually play?

[dragzz]

;261859']Ahh..Im not sure where in manila you play legacy, but we haven't had a real tournament on legacy here in manila, for such a looooooooong looooong time...


NG Galleria have been holding legacy tournies for at least once a month for the past few months, last one was today (sadly I wasn't able to play), and the last one before that was last July 26, 2008. It be good if you check their site for the schedule. Also, there has been small tournies(about less than 20 participants) popping out everywhere else as preparation for the GP.

I don't think were allowed to post links to external sites so I'll PM you instead.

Anyway, onward with the discussion.

Though, I was not able to join the tourney today I did a couple of playtesting vs Ichorid, and I must say that Nehil is correct with his suggestion. I didn't find the need to play with any form of graveyard hate, Prison/Muse basically locks the entire deck down. Chalice @ 1 and Trini makes sure they won't be able to do anything about it. Though you have to make sure that they won't be able to get up to 3 under Trini, Wispmare could ruin the day.

[Skeggi]

Last Sunday I entered a 16-man tournament. I sucked big-time, so I won't go into the matches in great detail, it's kind of emberassing :tongue:

Anyway, I've played against three aggro decks among the decks I played against, and must say that Kor Haven was a very nice addition to have. In one game, Kor Haven even won the game: the opponent has 2 goyfs at 5/6 and 2 life (I didn't do any of this, he was very suicidal with 2 thoughtseizes, 3 fetches and a very fanatic bob, he ended up putrifying his own bob). I have 8 life and 5 lands total: 2 Mishra's Factory, 1 Kor Haven and 2 Plains or something like that. 2 Plains and 1 Factory are tapped because I casted a Ghostly Prison. My opponent grips the prison and swings in with 2 goyfs: I used to Kor Haven a Goyf each turn, and he saw I didn't have mana to activate it, thinking he was swinging for the win: ofcourse I chumpblock with a factory and my other factory swings for the win next turn.

So: Kor Haven actually distracts opponents from your factories! :cool:


Though, I was not able to join the tourney today I did a couple of playtesting vs Ichorid, and I must say that Nehil is correct with his suggestion. I didn't find the need to play with any form of graveyard hate, Prison/Muse basically locks the entire deck down. Chalice @ 1 and Trini makes sure they won't be able to do anything about it. Though you have to make sure that they won't be able to get up to 3 under Trini, Wispmare could ruin the day.

I also played against Ichorid. Chalice@1 could be a wrong play. Chalice@0 is alot better: LED, petals, chromies = 12 dead cards they really need. The next Chalice you want to throw on the table depends on their build of Ichorid. The one I played against didn't have alot of viable 1-costed things: the only one was Cabal Therapy, and that doesn't really matter against us: against this build Chalice@2 would have been better.

[Clark Kant]

To the veterans of this deck, Machinus et. al...

Seeing how the original list is completely outdated now, do you guys mind posting your most current most tuned deck lists?

All the recent decklists I can find were ones posted by noobs to a large extent. They seem like good builds so I'm not insulting the builds or anything. But I would love to hear from some of the thread's veterans too.

It's probably useful for you guys too to compare each other's builds.

[Skeggi]

To the veterans of this deck, Machinus et. al...

He's banned.

You could try my list: it's a compilation of what most people on this board seem to think about Armageddon Stax:


Press the blue thing! Here! ^^^

[Clark Kant]

That's not a list. Thats a conglomeration of every viable list posted thus far. :tongue:

I was hoping to see some fine tuned and tested actual lists.

[Skeggi]

Well, it's a list. It's just not a decklist. I suggest you just follow instructions and build something suitable for your meta. Just netdecking won't get you any farther than just picking random numbers from my list anyway. But if you want to netdeck:this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18781) list went 4th at a 32 player tournament. Looks pretty solid to me.

[Clark Kant]

I'm not asking to netdeck. I tune all my decks to suit my own meta and personal tastes/playstyle.

I'm just curious to see where the veterans of this thread, the ones who tested and tweaked the hell out of their lists come down on such issues as...

The correct number of Smokestack (3 or 4).

The correct number of Trinisphere (3 or 4).

The correct number of Angels (0 or 2 or 3).

The correct mana configuration.

Moat or no?

Windborn Muse or no?

Cataclysm or Ravages of War or nothing to supplement 4 Armageddon?

These guys played and tested this deck a hell of a lot more than we have, so I think a lot of people here would love to see where they come down on the above questions.

[Skeggi]

The correct number of Smokestack (3 or 4).
The correct number of Trinisphere (3 or 4).
The correct number of Angels (0 or 2 or 3).
The correct mana configuration.
Moat or no?
Windborn Muse or no?
Cataclysm or Ravages of War or nothing to supplement 4 Armageddon?


I know I'm not one of the veterans, but I'll give you my opinion on these questions anyway:

Correct number of Smokestacks is 3: there are simply too much other important things to run in your deck to be able to run 4.

I'm currently playing 4 Trinispheres: this is a killer for alot of decks. I ended up in a 3+ mana-curve meta lately, so Trinisphere obviously loses its value: thinking of cutting 1...

About Angels, Moat and Muse: I'm currently running 2 Angels, 0 Moats and 2 Muses. I'm thinking of making this 3 Angels, 1-2 Moats and 0 Muses. For the second Moat I might cut a Magus (making my list 2 Magus, 1 Land).

For the correct mana configuration: see my list. It's too complicated and playstyle/meta-dependant.

I'm currently running 1 Ravages of War in addition to my 4 Geddons. I'm considering a 1-of Cataclysm (for the slot of the fourth Trinisphere).

[Clark Kant]

Thank you for answering the questions. :)

I would love to hear how you like the Muses. You say you are cutting them. Is that because they weren't good enough, or is it because you think they would get too redundant with Moats and you just need to make room for other cards.

I want to hear about how good they were for you.

[dragzz]

I also played against Ichorid. Chalice@1 could be a wrong play. Chalice@0 is alot better: LED, petals, chromies = 12 dead cards they really need. The next Chalice you want to throw on the table depends on their build of Ichorid. The one I played against didn't have alot of viable 1-costed things: the only one was Cabal Therapy, and that doesn't really matter against us: against this build Chalice@2 would have been better.

You could be right, but in the matches I had, I already had Ghostly Prison/Muse in play before I played the Chalice, so I wasn't really thinking along the lines of stopping their mana sources, I was more concerned with my opponent being able to Chain of Vapor my lock pieces then swinging for lethal damage.

And besides, does Ichorid run all 12? Don't they just have 4 LEDs?

[Skeggi]

I placed them in because I have Trygon Predator trauma. Often I have really wished I drew my Muse when I didn't, but when I think of it, drawing a Moat would have been better: alot of people played with lots of mana, so they could pay the muse, or they played stuff like Putrefy, killing the Muse.

Basically Muse is weak where you expect it to be weak:
1: it's a creature.
2: Prison effect doesn't help if your opponent has 2 mana per goyf.

On the plus side: they stomp your opponent for 2 a turn, while he can't attack you. When I'm taking out my Muses, they'll move to the SB for sure.

On another note: against a deck like Dragon Stompy for instance a Moat is still very useful: to let the Rakdos Pit Dragon fly they need RR, so basically it's still a Prison, except the Gathan Raiders can't attack.


You could be right, but in the matches I had, I already had Ghostly Prison/Muse in play before I played the Chalice, so I wasn't really thinking along the lines of stopping their mana sources, I was more concerned with my opponent being able to Chain of Vapor my lock pieces then swinging for lethal damage.

Lucky you. In the matches I had, he went of turn 0 and turn 2...leaves very little room for error :)

[dragzz]

I guess I was exceptionally lucky, being able to play the prisons before they went off.

Anyway I was talking with f|i[p] the other day and he mentioned having problems with Landstill and Rock matches, I haven't had the opportunity to go head to head with a Rock deck but it really does seem problematic. Landstill, I was able to play with, but I really did not have that much problem with them, but people seems to agree that its a problematic match up so I'm guessing I just wasn't going against a very competent pilot.

Which brings me to my question: What matches have you been having trouble with? What are your solutions do you have for them?

[Skeggi]

And besides, does Ichorid run all 12? Don't they just have 4 LEDs?

I guess most just run 4 LEDs. The guy I played against played the whole thing: He played what I like to call 'almost-manaless Ichorid'. However, if your opponent plays only 4 LEDs it's still worth it to go Chalice@0: LED is what makes Ichorid. The deck should be called LED combo instead (often they don't need Ichorid and the Narcomoeba's are enough): LED dumps their hand; which they want in their graveyard, AND gives mana, so they can perform some Deep Anal. LED is totally broken in this deck, and needs to be stopped.

In the aforementioned tournament I had to play against 2 (lucky me!) rockish kind of decks. They suck because of various reasons:

1: Alof of their stuff (mostly their removal) isn't affected by Chalice or Trinisphere.
2: Pernicious Deed
3: 1 played besides Pernicious Deed three sided-in Engineered Explosives, he played 3-color rock (third color was blue, don't ask me why but it kicked my behind): Engineered Explosives for 3 = bye-bye Crucible, Prison, Trinisphere, sided-in Oblivion Ring, sided-in Aura of Silence...teh suck.
4: Thoughtseize kills your Crucible too. Or your Geddon. Depends on their mood.
5: Some play Garruk...apparently he's good: he provides 2 extra mana/turn or he poops a 3/3 stomper. Ouch.

Basically because of these nasty Rock decks I'm considering Moats and Academy Ruins, although the latter is probably too slow to avert disaster. The Rock is all about killing board. We're all about boardcontrol. With the Rock throwing sand in the engine all the time this might be the worst match-up ever. They are more vulnerable to enchantments than creatures or artifacts, so Oblivion Rings might save you here, also why I want to run Moat over Windborn Muse.

[Fred Bear]

Clark Kant,

Honestly, your posts (intended or not) are extremely condescending. If you want a list from a specific person, pm them. The board is for discussion. The answers to many of your questions are contained in the 33 pages of prior discussion (not to mention the Angel Stax thread that morphed and Machinus updated to the current thread). You can read and search through specific discussions at your leisure.

I don't know if I'm qualified enough for your standard, but here is what I would take to a large tournament with a general meta...

Lands
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Mishra's Factory
8 Plains

Creatures
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

Sorceries
3 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War

Enchantments
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Oblivion Ring

Artifacts
4 Mox Diamond
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack
2 'Game-Time' Decision

Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
12 'Game-Time' Decision

Other Answers...

Smokestacks - Correct Number - 3. It's not that 4 is wrong, but I've found through testing that the 4th winds up being played reactively too often (if that makes sense). I tend to want my games to play out with me being the aggressor - playing cards that require answers. If I'm in 'catch-up' mode, you really have to evaluate your odds.

Trinisphere - Correct Number - 4. Any less and you lose the 'consistency' of a turn 1 back-breaker. That's not to say it can't or doesn't get sided out. Personally, I think Trinisphere is much less effective against the field than it was during the initial development of this deck.

Exalted Angels - Correct Number - 0. Again, this is shaded by my own testing. This deck does not need to play anymore than 1-2 distinct win conditions. First turn morph, second turn unmorph attack, while very fun and cool does not lead to the number of wins that turn 1 Chalice for 1 or turn 1 Trinisphere do. Angels are unnecessary to winning consistently with this deck.

Mana Configuration - Correct - See Above. I think there are two 'open' mana slots for personal preference. You can cut 1 Factory and 1 Plains and tweak to your desire. Land configuration less than 24 is wrong (I really believe this) and anything that doesn't produce a mana (Maze of Ith or Tabernacle) is either #25 or must take a spell slot. I've seen a lot of people try 23 with the 4th City (or Crystal Vein) and it doesn't work out - it's simply not consistent enough. You win because you recover from Armageddon faster than your opponents with or without Crucible.

Moat - Correct - 0. This is an easy inclusion in the 'game-time decision' slots, though. Moat is auto-win in an unprepared meta, but it is wholly unneccesary to consistent wins.

Windborn Muse - Correct - 0. Again, in aggro heavy metas, this can make it in as 'game-time decision' or into the sideboard. She gets hit with most of the commonly played removal and isn't an effective blocker. Again, she is not needed to win consistently.

Cataclysm - Correct - 0. If you play this card, you are not playing Armageddon Stax. Cataclysm requires a very different set of rules. A typical Stax board when playing Armageddon is 1 Creature (Magus), 1+ Enchantments (Prison), 3+ Artifacts (Diamond, Trinisphere/Chalice, Crucible). If I Cataclysm from this position, I am probably hurting myself at least as much as my opponent. I understand that Ravages is expensive, but Cataclysm is not an equivalent - it is entirely different.

Armageddon Effects - Correct - 5. I believe this to be true, in general. A case can be made for 4-6 depending on expected meta. Armageddon IS the best card in this deck. Armageddon creates more virtual card advantage than most people intuitively see.

[f|i[p]]

I think karmic justices is golden against any deck packing Deed and EE, Considering they don't K.grip it first...

I think landstill and versions of rock are the most problematic match,ups for stax. Thus saying, If its a 3 color version, their land configurations must be a little shaky, and if theres a way to take advantage of it, we should.


Also.. I have tried this creature configuration,(only getting to test against goblins)

2 Exalted angels
3 Magus ( putting 1 magus to the side board )
2 windborn muse...

The muses didn't really help much, I usually wanted magus or ghostly prison rather than muse, the only thing I used windborn muse for was to bait a gempalm, to get to put my angel down.Honestly speaking, Windborn muses doesnt do anything much to help, They easily get killed having 3 toughness. I don't think they belong in the sideboard even.

[The Wes]

Ok, my list after trial and error of 2 years. Note: I don't think this is the best list right now, I'm still working on a few things, but its the best I've been able to come up with for a deverse metagame.

MD
4 x Flagstones
4 x Ancient Tomb
3 x City of Traitors
4 x Wasteland
2 x Tabernacle
1 x Horizon Canopy
1 x Kor haven
6 x Plains

3 x Exalted Angel
2 x Magus of the Tabernacle
2 x Windborn Muse

4 x Mox Diamond
4 x Crucible
4 x Chalice of the Void
4 x Ghostly Prison
3 x Smokestack
3 x Trinisphere
4 x Armageddon
2 x Cataclysm

SB
4 x Karmic Justice
3 x Pithing Needle
4 x Suppression Field
1 x Trinisphere
3 x Oblivion Ring

A note on Cataclysm is that yes you do often hit as many of your things as you do your opponents, but you are designed to recover faster than they are. Cataclysm also works rather well with ghostly allowing you to cataclysm and still keep 2 prison effects. Decks that cataclysm helps against: Survival, Elves, Affinity, Enchatress. It leaves a lot of decks with one creature and one land left in play. I'm not saying its perfect in every situation but I've been loving my two copies.

So far after my testing, Windborn has been MD, SB, and not in the deck at all. Over time she keeps getting put back in the MD. Often its just nice to have another prison effect when every deck sb's out lots of creature removal for enchant/artifact destruction stuff. It rarely gets hit by EE, because 3 already hits out trini, crucibles, prisons, o rings, and gives you more time to find a geddon against decks that have to deed for 4. Its also nice to stop predator and hippie.

[Elric19]

Hi,
do you think that the new planeswalker could fit in a Whitestax deck? The first problem is surely its mana cost. Maybe with just one or two Plateau ( with 4 Mox Diamond) it could be enough to play it.

The first ability fit nicely in White Stax. Just tap the permanent that is treating you. The second ability could be useful against aggro, goblin or elf deck. The last one seems the most promising but I wonder if 4 turns is too long to destroy all opponent lands ?

Let discuss it !

[Skeggi]

You'd have to spoil it to me, I have no idea what the new plainswalker does.

[Fuzzy]

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/arcana1000/1660_jt3sc2ib_EN.jpg

THIS.

[Skeggi]

Looks like it has potential. I'm willing to test a 2-of in the slot of my Windborn Muse/Moat.

On second thought: I don't think he will survive...

[Fred Bear]

Actually, this is one of the first cards I've seen in a while that may be very worthwhile! It effectively does several things that this deck likes to do, all in one card. And while it may prove to be useless against straight aggro, it is definitely worth testing for its potential many other uses within the format. All-in-all, I think it is worth testing.

-FB...

[kidsmokin]

That card is pure hotsauce, the issue is the red, I suppose. I doubt Mox Diamond is enough to supply the R, I suppose you'd have to start running fetches or whatnot...maybe I'll have to actually attend this prerelease.

[Skeggi]

That card is pure hotsauce, the issue is the red, I suppose. I doubt Mox Diamond is enough to supply the R, I suppose you'd have to start running fetches or whatnot...maybe I'll have to actually attend this prerelease.

May I remind you that Flagstones = fetch. Just run 4 Flagstones and 1 Plateau instead of a normal Plains and the splash is settled I think.

[Fred Bear]

I wouldn't count on Flagstones as an automatic fetch. But until they print enemy fetches, I wouldn't expect them to be necessary. Depending on how many Ajani Vengeants you were playing (I will probably start testing at 2), I would expect you to need at least 4-5 Red Sources (6 at most). I count the Diamonds as 1/2 Red source each, you might be able to get away counting Flagstones as some Red source (but I'm not sure how much), and I would probably play 2-3 Plateau and 0-1 Sacred Foundry (depending on how often Extirpate shows up).

-FB...

[Skeggi]

Seems alot more risky to me, Stax is more Moon-sensitive than I'd like already (ofcourse Moon is slightly a smaller issue when splashign red :cool:). If you'd run 3 Plateaus there's only room for 3-5 plains...seems like cutting it close to me: I still prefer Aura of Silence as an enchantment sweeper in my sideboard, but with such a low Plains-count it wouldn't be effective against the Moon anymore...

Granted, you can't count Flagstones as a red source, but they do help. I also think counting Mox Diamond for 1/2 red source is flawed; I think you can count it more as 2/3. But that's pure speculation ofcourse, only testing can tell. Anyway; by your calculations: 1/2 * 4 = 2. If you count 4 Flagstones as 1 red source, you'll have 3, adding the Plateau you reach 4. Is enough by your standard :)

As I said before: I'll probably test 2 Ajani's and 1 Plateau, and work from there. Minimum changes ftw. Besides, who'd Extirpate the Plateau? Seems more logical to Extirpate Ajani.

[kidsmokin]

Flagstones did kinda pass my mind, and they do fetch a bit. I can see 3-4 Flagstones, 4 Moxen, and 1 Plateau to be serviceable for a splash.

I can see someone pre-emptively Extirpating the Plateau if they overestimate the R splash. Like how you can Extirpate Tropical Island against Thresh and basically get them to scoop, I suspect that's the first thing that'll pass their mind. Of course, when they realize that you're really only splashing for Ajani, then they'll probably just Extirpate Ajani like they should.

I just realized the second ability is Lightning Helix. Wow.

I suppose this means that each Planeswalker from Llorwyn gets shifted? This is a bit OT but that means... WR RU UG GB BW planeswalkers? Therefore the first ability (+X) pertains to the real color (e.g. Ajani's is white, tapping stuff), the second ability (-X) pertains to the enemy color (Ajani's second is burn, which is red, though the lifegain is white...?), and the third ability represents the intersection (Ajani's is land D, which occurs in both). If it works out like that (WR RU UG GB BW) the shifted Jace and Chandra would be the most interesting, I think.

[Fred Bear]

Do you seriously worry about Blood Mood with this deck? I do play 8 basics, normally, which is probably near the top side of anyone on here, but I've never had trouble with Moon. It might slow you down a little bit in certain situations, but I've not had that big a problem with it.

Even under a Moon, you only need 1 white to cast any of your spells (short of Aura which I don't think is a good solution to Moon anyways), so I wouldn't expect to need more than 5 basics (my build) plus 4 Diamonds to function rather as normal.

I assume you are boarding in Aura's for the Dragon Stompy match-up?

-FB...

[The Wes]

I'm only running 6 basics, but the only time I really have trouble with bloodmoon in DStompy is when they go mox, tomb, bloodmoon, chalice for zero. I've had that a few times game 2 or 3 when they are on the play and I haven't had a chance to drop my moxen yet. That being said the card looks very very interesting, and I can't wait to try it out and also check out the b/w plainswalker. I've been die'ing to get more cards for w/b braids stax.

[f|i[p]]

The new ajani looks promising on paper, tapping a permanent seems ok... nothing fantastic though but it can help. lighting helix ability is, ok as well to take out siege gangs,sharpshooters,trygon predator confidant factory and problematic low toughness creatures, the last ability however is quite slow..When i want an armageddon effect I usually want it Now and not later, although this is a one sided armageddon, I am quite sure that when this guy reaches 5 counters, he will as fast as possible be dealt with.

This would require a lot of testing. 2-3 plateaus would be good to start with along with the diamond..And if he works out great, Im sure there are some red cards out there that can be incorporated in the sideboard.

However I am itching to see the BW counterpart.

[Skeggi]

Do you seriously worry about Blood Mood with this deck? I do play 8 basics, normally, which is probably near the top side of anyone on here, but I've never had trouble with Moon. It might slow you down a little bit in certain situations, but I've not had that big a problem with it.

Well, I once kept a hand with alot of utility in my land against an unknown deck: 1 tabernacle, 1 flagstones, 1 factory and 1 wasteland iirc; turns out the deck I played against dropped turn 1 Magus of the Moon (was DragonStompy indeed, I totally out-sideboarded him though), and he just went for the win. I know we're not completely fucked by Moon, but it still holds us back. It's also one of the reasons Red Stax beats White Stax.


short of Aura which I don't think is a good solution to Moon anyways

Especially if that Moon effect comes from a Magus :wink: Aura also helps against Jitte's though :smile:

About the planeswalker: I think you should see it more as something that can slow your opponent down a bit, and shoot down an occasional annoyance: a small Goyf, Bob, BoP, Trygon Predator, Piledriver and the like.

I'm not so sure if I'd often use the land-destructing ability, I think I'd sooner draw a Geddon.

[Fred Bear]

This might draw out a few other people, but Red Stax doesn't just beat White Stax - the match is very even. Moon might slow you down, but most Stax pieces do nothing to you (remember we play them). I would be interested to hear why you think Red Stax > White Stax.

I think the thing to remember when testing Ajani, is that it is a utility card. You don't play him and assume you are going to use the land destruction ability. You play him and use the ability(ies) that helps the most. I think 3 activations is his break-even point (2 Ports plus a Lightning Helix = 2WR). If you are going to get that, I think he is worth the mana investment because he'll also attract attacks away from you and counters away from other business spells. My concerns are the board positions you find yourself in where you can't play him (2+ creatures and no Prison/Magus) and the stretched mana base. If his second ability was a Pyroclasm, he'd be an auto-include methinks. On the plus side in addition to 3 useful abilities is that Red offers some interesting sideboard options (Blood Moon is definitely in there).

On a side note - what's with making a mythic rare the pre-release card?!?!? Doesn't that completely devalue it as a collectible when compared to the other mythic rares?

-FB...

[Skeggi]

Red Stax > White Stax.

Woa, I say Red Stax beats White Stax, while White Stax obviously is alot more succesful in the format, and therefor White Stax > Red Stax.

The reason I think (know) this, is because Moon hits us alot harder than them and they have Welder to boot. While all our Tabernacle, Armageddon, Prison plans have little to no effect on them. They have a draw-engine: Bottled Cloister, they combine it with Ensnaring Bridge, making sure our creatures will never hit them. To top it off, they kill via Words of War.


On a side note - what's with making a mythic rare the pre-release card?!?!? Doesn't that completely devalue it as a collectible when compared to the other mythic rares?

Wel, I'm glad, this way I can easily include 2 foil versions, otherwise finding 2 foils of these would be a real pain. On a more side-note: Ajani made me curious about the other white(/black) plainswalker; white black being the combination of vindicate...ah well...one can hope, right :)

[Fred Bear]

Skeggi,

I understand that you were just saying Red beats White, but I don't think that's a fair assessment. Blood Moon is a speed bump while Armageddon is a full on ditch. In my experience, Red Stax is no more difficult than a White Stax mirror. It will be won by whomever abuses their Crucible more.

I don't like to speculate too much on cards... but... if there is a B/W planeswalker... and it has a reasonably costed ability... and that ability destroys target permanent... it will be hard to come up with a reason not to test it. The biggest strike against Vindicate is that it isn't a permanent. (Really, if BG can have Deed why can't BW have some enchantment that targets a single permanent?)

-FB...

[Hopo]

if BG can have Deed why can't BW have some enchantment that targets a single permanent?)


Like.... Oblivion ring, perhaps? It's non-land, though.

[Fred Bear]

Except that Oblivion Ring doesn't destroy anything, it just removes it from the game and then sits waiting to be Gripped or otherwise destroyed. Vindicate as an activated ability of an enchantment (or Planeswalker ability) would be very strong.

-FB...

[kidsmokin]

Except that Oblivion Ring doesn't destroy anything, it just removes it from the game and then sits waiting to be Gripped or otherwise destroyed. Vindicate as an activated ability of an enchantment (or Planeswalker ability) would be very strong.

-FB...
Oblivion Ring + Mangara hax!!!

If Vindicate came up on the B/W Planeswalker, that would be insane. I suppose in an aggro matchup the W/R would be better, so you could theoretically run Wbr or Wrb Stax, with one of the Planeswalkers in the deck to start, but then you could swap out one Planeswalker for the other if the matchup suits it better (you'd have to board a dual land, which sucks, but it could be worthwhile.

Regardless, Ajani is very good, his first and second abilities are awesome, the first is a Port (good vs. control mostly?) and the second is Lightning Helix, which is good vs. aggro.

[f|i[p]]

I suppose in an aggro matchup the W/R would be better, so you could theoretically run Wbr or Wrb Stax, with one of the Planeswalkers in the deck to start, but then you could swap out one Planeswalker for the other if the matchup suits it better (you'd have to board a dual land, which sucks, but it could be worthwhile.



Nope this wouldn't work, switching planes walkers and lands from side to main is plain crazy..

@fred bear

On a side note - what's with making a mythic rare the pre-release card?!?!? Doesn't that completely devalue it as a collectible when compared to the other mythic rares?

Ahhh..I guess they just want more money.. I don't even know why they added that mythic rare anyway.. its pointless, their just using it to earn more....

@ red for sideboard, blood moon is a good sideboard option for us, boil is also good its an added one sided armageddon against blue based decks.

[dragzz]

Splashing red seems nice, it gives us ways to deal with problematic criters and what not. But I'm not convinced unless it would significantly improve difficult MUs.

Splashing blue was dropped even it would have given us Propaganda, Pendrell Mist and possibly some form of draw (TFK comes to mind). What makes the new Ajani worth splashing? Granted of course that we would be allowed run red utility cards, i.e. pyroclasm, magus and the like?

[Skeggi]

Splashing blue was dropped even it would have given us Propaganda, Pendrell Mist and possibly some form of draw (TFK comes to mind). What makes the new Ajani worth splashing? Granted of course that we would be allowed run red utility cards, i.e. pyroclasm, magus and the like?

We found enough Propaganda effects in Ghostly Prison and Windborn Muse, we found enough Tabernacle effects in the Magus and the land. Ajani fills 2 important utility slots in 1 card, with the possibility of a game-winning ability. But just as the blue splash was a fun thought and needed testing, now this is testworthy at least.

[Fred Bear]

Skeggi is exactly right. Blue Splash Stax was tested and just wasn't as good as White by itself - the blue splash always seemed to 'dilute' the deck instead of strengthening it in my opinion. That's not to say that Blue Stax by itself couldn't be good - I just always come back to Armageddon.

The appeal of the new Ajani (for me) is that it gives you abilities for a potential Maze of Ith/Port -type of an effect, a potential Lightning Helix, and a potential 1-sided Armageddon all in the form of a difficult to remove (outside of the attack step) permanent. Right now, though, it's all potential. Only testing will prove or disprove its value.

-FB...

[The Wes]

The only problem I really have is what else does red give us besides the plains walker. Or rather what does red give us that helps winning more than white does. The deck has never really had a problem with swarms so pyroclasm isn't the most helpful, and we'd have to rework the deck a lot to fit magus/moon in. Burning wish makes me smile a little, but I'm not sure what I'd really want to wish for besides armageddon, maybe artifact/enchant removal. I demand a r/w vindicate!

[Skeggi]

I'm not sure if you want any other of the red utility: we're talking about a splash here. The only thing that might be useful is stuff like Boil, Boiling Seas, Impending Disaster(?), Ruination(?) in the SB (perhaps Flashfires, Anarchy, but somehow it's not as appealing).

My point being: there are not that many things we have to replace with red stuff in our current shell. Testing on just splashing Ajani should suffice for now.

[Citrus-God]

Well... there's also the option of running Wildfire... Decree of Annihilation... and other things.

[Skeggi]

Double red. Bad splash.

[The Wes]

Don't get me wrong, I like the new plainswalker, but I was just wondering if splashing to get it was worth the extra instability that it adds to the mana base. I'd be more up to the extra instability if it adds more than a 3 of to the deck, or at least sb options. Only time and testing with tell, but I can't wait to get on that testing, looks very fun.

[f|i[p]]

Actually, a lot of splashes were tested, from 2 color to 3 color builds. Nothing worked as good as mono white stax, as far as I am concerned.However there are other mono stax builds out there, black stax, blue, wildfire stax,and even green was built. Sometimes its either the builds were just shrugged off because people just wanted to improve what was already working, or they didn't even bother to bring it to a tournament and prove that a splash or a different color was really worth it.

As I see it, the new ajani would really help. I tried putting 2 proxies in the deck, and they do help in match ups.(Might even try 3) Goblins will try to kill it as fast as possible. you can helix the siege gang, sharpshooters, or simply keep lackeys, and piledrivers (goyfs even) tapped. Delaying is the key here. As Fred bear said, the first 2 abilities helps us in many ways already.( I don't think planes walkers are protected by ghostly prisons though)

Although I'm not entirely convinced yet that this would indeed help us in out in most of our bad matchups , it does help with the 4color landstill, by giving is blood moon and boil on the sideboard. I'm not sure how it will help ups with the other match ups. Although it may put a little more risk on our mana base, it always does help to test anything that is worth your time, after all, we are trying to improve the deck.

[Skeggi]

;265074'] I don't think planes walkers are protected by ghostly prisons though.

What do you mean by this? Do you mean Ghostly Prison doesn't have enough effect and the planeswalker will die to the one rogue creature that gets through?


;265074']it does help with the 4color landstill, by giving is blood moon and boil on the sideboard.

I think I might prefer Ruination over Blood Moon...however - I think I'll just stick with Armageddons and Ravages of War and wipe all their lands - seems stronger.

[Nihil Credo]

What do you mean by this? Do you mean Ghostly Prison doesn't have enough effect and the planeswalker will die to the one rogue creature that gets through?

He means that Ghostly Prison says "creatures can't attack you unless..."; the "you" means they're free to attack Ajani without paying the two mana. Which is a good observation and an unfortunately relevant strike against Ajani.

Anyway, other interesting stuff that Red offers:

- Boom / Bust
- Burning Wish
- Custody Battle!
- Dwarven (Blast)miner
- Stone Rain, Avalanche Riders
- Turf Wound!
- Blood Moon
- Ruination
- Cool interaction of the day: Shaman's Trance + Crucible of Worlds lets you steal your opponent's (dead) lands.
- Hmm, Imperial Recruiter grabs Magus of the Tabernacle, Windborn Muse, Glowrider, and Magus of the Moon. Interesting.

[The Wes]

I know lots of splashes were tried, I've taken b/w stax to several different tournaments. I was simply questioning splashing a color for a single card. I hadn't thought about moon and boil in the sb, and I'd love to help out landstill matchup. I'd then only really be affraid of survival.

Both Ruination and Blood Moon look interesting in the sb, I guess we need to get to testing.

Hmm, Armageddon, Ravages, Ruination, Boil, Cataclysm, any other good/fun sorceries that we might want to wish for? Just brainstorming there.

Yeah, I think he's refering to the wording on ghostly that only says creatures can't attack you unless 2 is payed for each. Should still be able to attack the planeswalker.

[dragzz]

Now that burning wish was mentioned, splashing red seems more appealing.

Trash for Treasure seems like a decent wish target and so is
Retribution of the Meek for huge creatures that you can't deal with, i.e. That 4/5 goyf, Angels, Dragons and what not.

[Malchar]

i'm just a novice stax player but i was pleased that other people also thought that ajani would go great in this deck. i admit that i don't know that much about the deck as-is, but i was surprised that splashes weren't more common. with the utility of flagstones and mox diamond, it seems really easy to splash a color if only for a single card. just toss in 4x of the dual, maybe some fetchlands depending on how big the splash is.

as for other red cards to add, i couldn't think of anything immediately. my personal favorite has always been seismic mage. i know that this card is pretty bogus, maybe i just want it to be good enough to work.

[f|i[p]]

@ retribution of the meek-- I would rather have wrath of god over this, wrath will be more useful overall. It isn't dead against goblins and swarm type decks.

@trash for treasure-- its interesting, how you can get a countered artifact back in play.

@ burning wish---if we run this we may get a tool box on the side, but what do we usually get? an armageddon, wrath maybe...I'm not sure it belongs here, but they would still warrant testing because of burning wish's sheer power.

@cataclysm-- I know how strong it is in angel stompy, I just dont think it belongs here at all. It just affects us to much. Although it is still good against swarm decks.

With boil, ruination, and even ajani you'll have armageddon 5-14 if we don't have ravages.

I think if its just a minor splash,2-3 plateaus can be enough.

Another card that might be worth testing , if we are going the land destruction route and splashing red would be shivan wumpus, it helps our over all strategy of delaying and locking the opponent out. It can be dropped quite fast and speeds up the deck. The con's however is drawing it late game when the opponent doesn't care about his lands. However, since this is prison, we should always make them care about each permanent they play.Hence the mulligan decisions.

[SuckerPunch]

I really don't think the new Planeswalker is as awesome as it's being made out to be. Killing a permanent is equivalent to tapping it indefinately. The helix effect takes away too many loyalty counters imo. And worst of all, they can kill it easily no matter how many Ghostly Prisons and Windborn Muse you have.

As long as people bring up Trash for Treasure, could Goblin Welder play a role in the deck. Or does Chalice and Trini make it unplayable.

I'm guessing it is the latter. But just wanted to mention the card somewhere. It really seems under used in legacy. It does the same thing as Trash for Treasure for a heck of a lot cheaper, and does it each and every turn. At worst, it gives you a cheap permanent to sac to Smokestack or a chump blocker/blocker for Lackey.

[Skeggi]

He means that Ghostly Prison says "creatures can't attack you unless..."; the "you" means they're free to attack Ajani without paying the two mana. Which is a good observation and an unfortunately relevant strike against Ajani.

Oh right, I thought all damage was done via the re-direct rule. Silly me :laugh:

Anyway, I think we're getting too far ahead of ourselves: thinking of all kinds of wild splashes with red. Don't get me wrong, be my guest and try them all, and please tell us all about it; but I'd advice sticking to the main plan mostly, and try small splashes first before making it basically a two color deck with hald white utility and half red.

[dragzz]

Anyway, I think we're getting too far ahead of ourselves: thinking of all kinds of wild splashes with red. Don't get me wrong, be my guest and try them all, and please tell us all about it; but I'd advice sticking to the main plan mostly, and try small splashes first before making it basically a two color deck with hald white utility and half red.

Agreed. But, Ideas are always good to discuss.

The reason why I brought up Trash for Treasure and Retribution of the Meek is mainly because of Burnish Wish. I mean if were splashing Ajani for utility, then nothing would brings us a better/broader utility suit than Wish. I'm not saying that we should not play/test Ajani, maybe play Ajani and along side it play Burning Wish, may be as a 2/3 - 2/4 split. Gives the deck a lil bit more versatility with difficult matches or problematic permanents we have no way to deal with.

@Retribution of the Meek
a) We have ways to deal with swarms (ie. Ghostly Prison, Tabernacle, Muse), but single huge creature becomes problematic, specifically if they have the mana to pay for the taxes.
b) You can wish for it and cast it the same turn a total of 3WR. Wish targets should be wish-able and cast-able the same turn IMHO.
* on a note wrath of god is would always be a better board sweeper in general.


As long as people bring up Trash for Treasure, could Goblin Welder play a role in the deck. Or does Chalice and Trini make it unplayable.

On top of being unplayable under Chalice and Trini, welder would only be relevant on your next turn, and if ever you play him he's vulnerable to all creature removal in the format, and would be the target of it, which means his dead before you get anything out of him. And also, the more creatures you play in the deck the lesser your virtual card advantage becomes.

f|i[p] - When you tested Ajani, what was your mana configuration? Did you run fetches?
I'm too lazy to try red splash now, maybe after GP.

[The Wes]

On Retribution of the Meek:
The casting cost is rather nice like Dragzz said for us to be able to wish for it then play it the same turn. Much easier to hit 3wr than 3wwr in the case of Wrath. I'm not sure I agree on wrath usually being better either. With a lot of stax set ups creatures with power less than 4 arn't that hard to deal with. Most important < 4 power fliers are 2 power (such as hypie or predator) and those can be handled easily by windborn. Most important < 4 power ground pounders can be handled by windborn/mishra/magus. Swarms arn't really with tabernalce/prison interactions. That usually leaves 1 or 2 big dangerous creatures bashing us down (naught/goyf/tombstalker/eternal dragon/slogger/anything reanimated) that are the trouble. If we don't have an exalted on the table retribution doesn't hurt us at all while only hitting their creatures that hurt us.

On Goblin Welder:
Yeah, it gets hit by chalice, trini, and s field in the side. Another proble with it is that you'd really want it early, turn 1 or so befor you dropped more of your lock pieces and that would require r turn one. While it could happen from a mox I think it would require more of a red splash than we really are thinking about for the planeswalker.

[f|i[p]]

@ The wes , about retribution of the meek, I never said I would want to wish for wrath costing 3WWR. I just said I would rather have wrath of God than retribution of the meek.

I don't even think burning wish belongs in the deck, simply because it will force us to make the best use out of it, dedicate more to burning wish. Another note is that Sun Tower who runs red Green primarily doesn't use it at all, and they use more sorcery spells than we do.

About welder, I still think that it belongs to a more lock dedicated stax deck just like sun tower.

I do however agree that we should try a small splash before going on to the big leap and proposing a big splash. But its always nice to have new ideas flowing.

@dragzz

I only ran 3 plateau's. It seemed enough for just 2 red cards...We also have diamond anyway. But I only tested a few games... I have to focus on the upcoming tournament this sunday as well..

[The Wes]

Oh I pretty much completely agree with you. I was only suggesting a 3 of Burning wish with 2-3 of the Planeswalkers as something to try out. I was liking the idea cause it might allow me essentially run 8 or so armageddon effects. Could be complete crap, just an idea. I would not want to add more than those 5-6 red cards main, and personally think just the planeswalker alone would probably be enough of a reason to run the red. Was just throwing out other ideas, can't hurt to try em.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I think if you run burning wish always run 4 or 0!
You give useful Sb space for some wishtargets up...
so you have to go all in with 4 wishes to mostly abuse the wishtargets
or leave it compleatly...

[The Wes]

I think it would have to be tested, and I know I won't have the chance to really test it till after the new cards come out on workstation. Either way, arn't there several decks that only run 3 wishes? Solidarity comes to mind, but I'm sure there are others. In our case with so little draw you might be right about if it was used, it needing to be as a 4 of, but only time and testing would really tell.

Hell, I think I'll force time in now to try...

[f|i[p]]

I just came from the legacy side event of GP here in Manila..
There were a total of 80 players. Its the first time we had this much legacy players in Manila. We usually have around 30 players max joining a tournament There was actually more than 80, but a lot didn't make it because there was a player cap of 80. I'm hoping this will be a start of something new for legacy here in our area.

I haven't really played for more than 5 months now but managed to get top 7 out of 80 players playing mono white stax.
This is the top 8 of 80 players


1. Gw Zoo
2. Belcher
3. UW Fish
4. Mono R Burn
5. UW Fish
6. UWb Sliver - not meathooks
7. White Stax
8. 36 Lands ? im not so sure if its 36 or 46..


First my list

4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
4 wasteland
3 mishra's factory
7 Plains
3 flagstones of trokair
4 mox diamonds

3 exalted angel
4 magus of the tabernacle

3 smokestack
4 ghostly prison
4 trinisphere
4 chalice of the void
4 armageddon
4 crucible of worlds
2 Oblivion Ring

Sideboard
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Defense Grid
4 Supression field
3 wrath of God
3 Seal of cleansing

I'm quite tired, but I'll try to make a quick tourney report while its still fresh because I only have a few notes.

Round 1 Elf
( on the draw)
Game 1
I lose because of small mana producing elves and priest of titania.. They just paid for ghostly prison and smashed me with racored river boas.
Game 2
I managed to lock him with a first turn chalice, then trinisphere after which Factory beats and wins the game for me.
Game 3
He beats me quite fast, he drops a stampeding wilderbeast, I O ring it, was suppsed to O ring another creature just so the wilderbeast would bounce itself,2 for 1, but then again he dropped another creature, so I O. ring the wilderbeast.I go down to 9, then I drop exalted and win the game shortly after.

2-1

Round 2 UW fish
Game 1
Some early lock pieces were countered. And jotun beats down. I go down to zero.
Game 2
Meddling mage naming prison, after which I draw prison.Shortly after jitte gets equipped , and mage beats down. I draw nothing to answer the mage.I drop a magus but jitte has 4 counters already. I go down to 4, I have a tomb and 3 lands in play(one is tapped to pay for the magus upkeep). armageddon and another land. I was thinking of dropping the land, then armageddon but I thought it would be a waste of land drop if I did drop it then geddon. I play geddon,and shortly after I play geddon. I remembered that he might have daze, as he only had 3 cards in hand. Can't take it back now.. Armageddon is countered by daze... Done game. Very bad play on my side.Lesson learned.


Round3 Kithkin weenie (this was meant for standard but he wasn't able to join standard as he was late)

GAme 1. Angel then geddon win..
Game 2. He gets to swarm kithkins and kicks my ass.
Game 3 ANgel then geddon, win.

Round4 -Kavu false cure combo mixed in with aggro components.
Game 1 He duresses and takes off a trinisphere, I draw another one a few turns later and cast it. Magus beats down for the win. At this point I was assuming he was playing black sui, since I didnt see a lot out of his deck.

Game 2- I side in some wraths. First turn he drops a basic forest.. I was like.. uh oh... He drops confidant. I drop trinisphere and ghostly prison, I drop Smokestack and from here on I thought I had him. He draws a deed.. He plays deed, he has 3 lands and a lotus petal or chrome mox as of this point. I have at least anther turn. I draw land.. he attacks and passes.. I draw O .ring. I didn't have much choice. I o ring deed.. He uses it. All my permanents are gone. after which he drops tarmo.O draw into ghostly.he attacks I draw into another ghostly.. he drops a kavu.. I drop an angel. Beat down continues.. hez kavu is at 10/10 now.but cant attack because of 2 prisons.. I proceed and win.

He was kinda playing slow, and I was quite bothered by it. I knew if I didn't beat him at the 2nd game it would be a draw.Good thing I did.

Current standing-2-1

Round 3 R/g goblins.
Game 1 I play first, drop a chalice for 1. Magus and smokestack lock ensures he has no permanents
Game 2 Goblin lackey beats down, I after a few turns. More seige gang commanders.. I wrath again.. I'm slowly killing myself with ancient tomb as well. I go down to 3, He l.bolts..
Game 3. I managed to stabilize at 1 life with prisons, he has 2 basic lands left with a pile driver and a hooligan. I have a prison Cow(which I used to constantly waste his duals) lands and a morphed E. angel.. He attacks with hooligan.. Im forced to block with angel,hooligan ang angel dies.. This is my last turn..I said.. I top deck another angel...what awesome luck. Pile drivers watch my life go back up.

Standing 3-1

Round 5 R/G zoo

game 1-He beats down with ascetic and that goblin shusher.
Game 2 I beat down with magus. and lock him out.
Game 3- This is where I made some bad mistakes..We play and I almost had him at a lock... He had a shusher and magus of the moon..
I had city of traitors, 2 plains..2 factories and a wasteland, magus,smokestack and some lock pieces..I have angel in hand... wasteland taps to pay for magus upkeep.. I use the 6 mana I have left to pay for angel, when I play angel, he then reminds me that I can't pay for her because of magus of the moon and thus goes to the graveyard..I didn't even bother to ask, as I was quite in a hurry to win the game as well, time was runnning fast. Angel goes to the graveyard, where supposedly she was supposed to go back to my hand,?? isn't she supposed to go back to my hand since I could have never afford to pay her casting cost??? (maybe this was his way of getting back at me because there was a point where he fetched a land with supression field having only 1 land,thus I let him pay a life and fetch nothing).
Back to the game, after this I manage to lock him out to zero permanents.. But factories got him down to 2 before time ran out... There could have been some more errors on my part as I was not only hungry but quite tired as well.

standing. 4-1-1

Round 7 UGr thresh
This kid playing is extremely lucky,, I think he had 20 force of wills and 20 ponders in the deck.

Game 1 , He plays land.. I play chalice at 1.. he forces... He plays tarmo.. I play trinisphere.. He forces... Wow.... bleh. that sucks.. He plays ponder , brainstorm,and beats me down with 2 goyfs.

Game 2, I go first.. I play chalice,, He forces.. force again... He plays land goose, I play trinsphere.. he forces...He ponders, goose on his turn.. I play chalice again, he forces!!!!! wtf!!! He starts to beat with goose but it doesn't hurt as much to me since its only 1/1 for now. I drop ghostly prison eventually, crucible and start wasting his non basics.I drop a smokestack and hence the lock.... I told the kid how force of will and ponder loves him soo much.. I had quite good hands, with early lock pieces...

Game 3- He goes first, land ponders, I drop chalice, he forces.... zzzzzzzzzz..
He drops goyf... I drop trini.. HE FORCES!!!!!!! goyf starts to beat down,casts ponder.. I draw another trini.. I play.. he doesnt have the 3rd force.. what a miracle...I play prison.. HE plays trygon predator, I O .ring him .he still does some beat down with goyf and pay for 2 each time goyf attacks which is good for me at least I know he cant counter with force.. I play magus...Then chalice.. He forces, pays 3 mana to do so... I proceed to block tarmo and get the wasteland crucible lock, then eventual a smokestack

over all 5-1-1...

All in all, the deck is still good. I would have made some side board changes,
Seal of cleansing was dead and never brought in at any game.
Defense grid would be cut to 3
4 suppression fields are a must
2 O.rings maindeck could be the 5th armageddon effect and 4th angel
Wraths helped me a lot so it stays in my sideboard. (this is a metagame call)
The only time I boarded angels out was against thresh, where I focused primarily on the lock.(I however am not sure if this was the right call even)

I had a lot of blunders about side boarding, it was hard to decide which was more imporant..at certain match ups. who was playing, or drawing. Maybe we could set up a post on our general side boarding options against decks that are used most of the time.




Props

For having more than 80 players who wanted to join the GP side event

For seeing some of the old faces and lots of new faces as well.

Exalted angel for being one of the best creatures that can simply win games.

Magus of the tabernacle a big body that can really take some beating.

For the deck being both beat down and control at times,

For the deck being able to stabilize at even 1 life.

For my errors and learning from it.

Silver dragon and Fred bear for giving me some advice..I appreciate it.


Slops
Myself for making some bad play mistakes.

Myself again for not playing for 5 months, as I used to play stax and magus triggers on the stack making them sac first and tap later. But during the tournament, I actually forgot why I played it that way before...And I was thinking for so long that I know I used to play it that way.. but why.... I don't remember, So I had to just trust the text on the card, let them tap and sac whatever they tapped.. bummer.... And its only after the tourney the dragz reminded me, that the oracle text was changed for stax.. from during to the beginning, and then I remembered... so much for not playing for 5 months or so... ( I could have won some games faster and went 6-1 with without making this mistake)

Some players whom I think were purposely slow playing, its quite annoying.

For whomever organized this GP event, It was listed and advertised that there would be a single elimination for the top 8, for the side event of GP, but they changed their minds during the last few hours????? what a joke...

For whomever organized the GP event AGAIN.. they said that the italian legends booster packs were the prizes which excited a lot of players and maybe even pulled the vintage players to play legacy. INSTEAD they informed the players who were raving about the chance of getting mana drains and tabernacles that the prizes were still in singapore when the top 8 players were declared and brought to a table. they said it was instead going to be mailed, to each of the top 8 players............ what B.S..... they could have at least informed the players early on.. but no.... when it was time to hand out the prices, they were like.. uhhh... err..... ummm... zzzzzzzz....

[The Wes]

Grats flip! Nice list and nice top 8! How were the wraths and seals of cleansing for you?

[f|i[p]]

@the wes,

if you actually read the report, I stated that wrath was a metagame call and worked very well for me., Seals never came in... not one single game..so maybe next time you can read it .or better yet skim through it and just read what interests you.

You might actually learn from the mistakes I made during the tourney...
Sorry I know its quite boring to read reports, I tried to keep it short though, but it seems that it isn't.

I mean no offense though.

[dragzz]

Congrats Flip.

I was in the same tourney but my results wasn't as impressive
Went 3-3-1 and was waaay below the list

Here's what I played.

List

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
7 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Mox Diamonds

2 Windborn Muse
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

3 Smokestack
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Armageddon
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Oblivion Ring

Sideboard
3 Karmic Justice
3 Defense Grid
3 Supression field
4 Pithing Needle
2 Aura of Silence

My mistakes where primarily
Removing Angels for Muse = What was I thinking? I wanted to test the muse out on a large tourney and see if she's worth it. Sad to say she's not, she dies almost instantly whenever I got the chance to play her, and I almost always sided her out.

Cutting the Magus to 3. At least for me I felt like the Tabernacle land didn't bring much to deck, It didn't survive after a geddon which was useless if your on the loosing end and needed to sweep the table. It did nothing against control at least the tabernacle man acted as a win condition. I'd still keep it in the deck but I think I'll up the Magus count up to 4.

Removing cataclysm, I know a lot of people would say that it wasn't needed in the deck but for me it was. I was unlucky with my draw most of the time and my lock pieces didn't come as early as I would have wished. Cataclysm would just serve as a good reset button for games that didn't go as well as we hoped for, of course granted that its a dead card in situations that we have the upper hand.

On side board choices.
As Flip stated, I believe that 4 suppression is a must. It just extremely good.
On Pithing - I felt like it didn't offer that much advantage, though I was able to Needle a disk once, but that's just about what it did.
On Karmic - Never really got the chance to play it, because it got countered all the time.
On Defense Grid - Just plain Great.
On Aura of Silence - I was able to 2 down vs landstill which made Nevs and standstill impossible to cast. So I guess I'm keeping them.


Some players whom I think were purposely slow playing, its quite annoying.

I believe 20secs is a reasonable time to "think", unless its and extremely complex play (like solidarity or spring tide a minute or two is aceptable), I had the same experience with a landSTALL player where he uses sensei every time I would cast anything or do anything and "thinks" for about a minute or two. EVEN if he already just did just that a few seconds before.
Me: Play smokestack
He: Sensei > Thinks (Tictactictactictac a few mins) > Ok Good
Me: Playland > Waste his land
He: Sensei > Thinks (Tictactictac a bit longer) > Ok Good
Me: Irritated
Good thing I won that match, or I would have been so pissed

And I played with this guy who would "think" for about few mins during his turn(and mine) where he clearly can't do anything. because I had a trini and he had no mana sources. o.O

So when I know that the guy is only stalling i begin counting with my fingers and purposely show's them that I'm doing it.

[Skeggi]

Nice report Flip, grtz on the top8 :)


;268236']Game 2
Meddling mage naming prison, after which I draw prison.Shortly after jitte gets equipped , and mage beats down. I draw nothing to answer the mage.I drop a magus but jitte has 4 counters already. I go down to 4, I have a tomb and 3 lands in play(one is tapped to pay for the magus upkeep). armageddon and another land. I was thinking of dropping the land, then armageddon but I thought it would be a waste of land drop if I did drop it then geddon. I play geddon,and shortly after I play geddon. I remembered that he might have daze, as he only had 3 cards in hand. Can't take it back now.. Armageddon is countered by daze... Done game. Very bad play on my side.Lesson learned.


I like to point out this mistake: I've been making them myself aswell (you really hit yourself for this one, so side-effect is a headache on top of your sorrow); so remember folks: if your opponent plays daze, drop land first! :cool: Very important lesson :)



Removing Angels for Muse = What was I thinking? I wanted to test the muse out on a large tourney and see if she's worth it. Sad to say she's not, she dies almost instantly whenever I got the chance to play her, and I almost always sided her out.

My Muses are in my meta slot and they're on the point of getting kicked out for something else. I thought the extra Prisons would be good, but the fact is: Muses are not extra prisons. I must say they don't completely suck, but often when they work they seem win-more.

Anyway, back tot the drawing board of everyone's favourite lock-deck: this has been spoiled from Shards of Alara:
For those who can read Japanese or French:
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4391/goblinassaultgh1.jpghttp://img235.imageshack.us/img235/3749/goblinassaultbm1.jpg
For those who can't read Japanese or French:
Goblin Assault :2::r:
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep, put a 1/1 red Goblin creature token with haste into play.
Goblin creatures attack each turn if able.

With the new planeswalker, the red splash seems more viable. Other people have been naming Bitterblossom as a nice permanent-pooper; unfortunately it's black, costs life and is out of our curve. This card is red, so goes nicely with Ajani, doesn't cost life and fits the curve. My main problem would be: I have no idea what to place it for: my current guess is, that this card won't be used in Stax; however I just wanted to point it out to you guys, perhaps you think otherwise :)

[f|i[p]]

I don't think that card belongs in stax, although it gives us permanents, I don't really see anything worth cutting for it...

The card is very offensive, and we usually would like to delay opponents from trying to win.Those tokens can't even block, because they would be attacking each turn..hence it would leave you open for attacks. And if a jiite goes through our delaying tactics.. the tokens would even help pump enemy creatures or give them life...

So many red cards that would be interesting in this deck. Greater Gargadon comes to mind...

[Zinch]

I haven't read the entire post (i'm lazy) but, has anyone test ajani (the old one, the monowhite one) in this deck??

Seems that he could be very good: don't have to pay upkeep for him, it makes you gain life (in some matches, this is an issue), is a very good finisher and I love that card:wink:

I know the opponenet don't have to pay to attack him, but the idea is play him when he will survive or at least to gain some time...

[The Wes]

If I remember correctly after testing him a few people decided that he died easily and that there were just better options. Because of the amount of cards that are considered to be needed in the mb, its hard to fit new ones in, and I and don't think he ever helped the deck do things it couldn't do better without him.

[ssilver]

what do you side out for suppression field?

[Fred Bear]

what do you side out for suppression field?

In what matchup?

[f|i[p]]

We should actually make a list of our common sideboard options ... what to side in and out specially against bad match ups and more popular decks.. Just for information purposes.. Everyone can have their own opinion on it but generally speaking...

[Skeggi]

Hey guys, I went to a 36 people tournament Saturday and ended pretty bad. Fortunately there weren't any real mistakes from my side this time, but the meta was very Stax-unfriendly: Trygon Predators MB, Jotun Grunt MB and that kind of stuff...Gaddock Teeg is a bitch too...so is Back to Basics; doesn't kill you, but sure stalls the stuff annoyingly.

Anyway here's my list:

4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War

1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Exalted Angel

1 Moat
4 Ghostly Prison

3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond

3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Mishra's Factory
5 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Academy Ruins
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

SB:

1 Trinisphere
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Aura of Silence
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Suppression Field
2 Defense Grid
2 Karmic Justice

In short, about the deck:

I didn't like the moat, it's just a mana-expensive Prison. Doesn't stop that damn Predator.

Engineered Exposives: they never actually go off, but they posted a very strong threat: had to lure another counter or Vindicate or Grip. They're pretty cool, but I have doubts nonetheless.

Academy Ruins: they recurred 0 artifacts during 6 rounds.

About the sideboard:

Trinisphere - this one is going back maindeck instead of the Moat.
Suppression Field - still the best SB card ever, won me many games.
Tormod's Crypt - only used in 1 match.
Aura of Silence - never used.
Oblivion Ring - Very often used, brilliant card still.
Defense Grid - Utterly useless.
Karmic Justice - Used a couple of times when I feared boardsweepers (such as Deeds).

I'm going to switch one Crypt for a Suppression Field, the 2 Auras of Silence will be dropped so I can run 3 Oblivion Rings. The Defense Grids will go for 2 Windborn Muses.

The Moat isn't going into the sideboard. It is plain out of here. I'm going to throw in 2 copies of Runed Halo, see how it fits :smile:

That's all I can say for now - DeathScythe was there too, and was pretty much as unsuccesful as me - perhaps he has some additional comments :smile:

[DeathScythe]

Like Skeggi stated I was also at the tournament

My list

3 exalted angel
3 magus of the tabernacle
4 ghostly prison
2 oblivion ring
2 moat
3 armageddon
2 ravages of war
3 smokestack
4 crucible of worlds
4 chalice of the void
3 trinisphere
3 mox diamond
3 flagstones of trokair
3 wasteland
1 kor haven
3 city of traitos
4 ancient tomb
3 mishra's factory
7 plains


Sideboard

1 trinisphere
3 karmic justice
3 defense grid
3 tormod's crypt
2 karmic justice
1 oblivion ring
1 enlightened tutor
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale

I went 0-4-2 (started 0-0-2...) but this is mostly because I just didn't have my day and was constantly screwing things up for some odd reason. Example, almost locked and I decide to sac a chalice for my smokestack on 1 when my oppo has a welder out, how stupid can I possible be?!

My comments

3 flagstones, I'm so switching back to 2 flagstones 1 god's eye I didn't like it like earlier builds (decided to try as my entree was free anyway)
kor haven, didn't liek the thing, thinking about swinging the tabernacle main but that means I'm playing 23 mana producing lands, which could be tricky it opens new sb plans though
3 smokestack, as i was used to play 4 the 3 count was different to play but that will take time I think

3 aura of silence, good thing I'm soo keeping it as a 3-off
3 defense grid, 3 is coolish esp if you find all 3 against monoblue XD
3 crypt, didn't need them in any of the games
2 karmic justice, good card as most of the people board stuff like grips/ EE, makes them think twice about using them
1 oblivion ring, needed them 1 MU
1 tutor, got boarded it but never drew it, if tabernacle goes main it's outta here and new SB plan will be thought over
1 tabernacle, never sided it in hence I want to throw it MB
1 trinisphere, didn't see any combo so didn't go in

I think we just ran into the wrong decks because there was stuff like goblins ( 3 went T8) and DS which are very good MU for this deck, so throwing knifes at the HJ might be a good idea next time

I'll see Skeggi next week at a tourny which I'll be HeadJudging so I'm going to pay close attention to his matches

[f|i[p]]

So which matchups did you guys consider bad? or really bad?

[DeathScythe]

;271069']So which matchups did you guys consider bad? or really bad?

very terrible bad
decks that run vindicate, deed, EE on 3/4. MB trygon predator

bad
Decks that run seize/duress/hymn (mostly if on the draw due to chalice/Tsphere)
decks that can kill you T1 and/or completly/mostly ignore the combat step (mostly combo, stifflenought)

[Skeggi]

Sideboard

1 trinisphere
3 karmic justice
3 defense grid
3 tormod's crypt
2 karmic justice
1 oblivion ring
1 enlightened tutor
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale


Cheater! 5 Karmic Justice! If I were you I'd drop the 3 Karmic Justice for 3 Suppression Field :wink:

My first match was against a guy with mainboard Trygon Pedator AND mainboard Jotun Grunt. That's a pretty bad match-up in my book. I locked him out game 2, but game 3 he had too many counters and stuff to counter my threats: he played UGwb Thresh, and by game 3 it was a counterfest supported by Grip, Vindicate and Predator. Thanks dude.

My second match was against a guy that played random BWR goodstuff, so I just walked all over him game 1. Game 2 was alot closer but I won after a long time of answering eachother's threats.

My third match was again against a madness deck with mainboard Trygon Predator. It got pretty close after sideboarding. I smashed him game 2: turn 2 lock: Turn 1: Ancient Tomb, Mox, Trinisphere, go. Turn 2: land, Smokestack, go...Turn 3 I dropped a Crucible. It went on for a few turns because he wanted to see what else was in my deck, but eventually he scooped. Game 3 we exchanged threats, no Trygon Predator ever saw the board, but Back to Basics saw the board and it took me 3 turns to set up enough mana to cast Oblivion Ring on that snazzer (Yeah, I don't know what a snazzer is too, but it can't be good). In the meantime a Basking Rootwalla was pounding me, and after half a deck I didn't draw into a single Geddon, so this guy won, after a long match. Eventually this guy won the tournament.

Fourth match was against a guy who played BGW iirc, he had deeds and Gaddock Teeg. Game 2 he got a Pernicious Deed out, but no mana to activate. I play 2 Suppression Fields next turn and he scoops (I had him by his balls). I didn't change my sideboard, but I should have gotten more Teeg-hate. Teeg stopped my Geddon and EE. That sucked because I really needed that EE.

My fifth match was against a guy who played Thresh, but really, since I lost 3 matches already I was like wtf, and let the beers come, which have kicked in here a bit, so I lost this one 2-0. But I feel I lost to beer, not to Thresh :wink:

Last match was against an ADHD teammate who played Cephalid Breakfast. We both sucked in this tournament, having won only 1 match. We also knew that my Stax > his Breakfast. Still, I proposed to switch decks. Which we did. So I played Cephalid Breakfast and he played Stax. Needless to say, I kicked his ass 2-0 :laugh: He did try to cheat though, drawing an extra card, so I called the judge on him, and he called the judge on me to have me deckchecked! The SoaB! So I quickly told the judge to deckcheck him too. Now the judge was confused and asked if we couldn't handle this on our own; but also because we were at the low tables, so it didn't really matter anyway, haha :smile:

So I went 2-4-0 ...ouch there goes my ego :wink:

Edit:

This has been spoiled:
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/1300/battlegraceangelsb4.jpg
WotC creates a new Angel to try and give WhiteStax some love...

Exalted Angel probably still is the better choice, because she defends with 5 toughness, and can be casted over two turns with less mana sources. However, this one does hit a bit harder; but then again, no lifelink when defending. What do you guys think?

[dragzz]

Exalted Angel is Sexier, so I don't think she'll going to be replaced anytime soon. The extra punch doesn't really matter, if she had vigilance then she would have been a great replacement, but as it it she comes a bit short.

[nicolasbol]

5 casting cost is a no go for me.

I love exalted angel because I can potentialy cast it turn one and swing for a +4/-4 on turn 2.

[Fred Bear]

The one thing that looks interesting about the angel. You can leave her big 'ole butt back on defense and turn all your Magus' and Factorys into 2/x lifelinkers.

-FB...

[SuckerPunch]

Also, lets not forget that Exalted Angel eats up two turns of mana.

This costs one more mana than Exalted Angel costs to unmorph, a colorless mana at that. But it saves you from having to use up most of your mana the turn earlier.

It also beats for 5, and makes your Magus into a 3/7 lifelinker.

Exalted Angel is probably better. But this is worth atleast a look imo.

[saspook]

Remember that if your Magus is a 3/7 lifelinker, than the Angel isn't attacking.

[Dark_Cynic87]

A resolved one could result in a better matchup vs. Landstill varients--4/4 land-creatures tend to win in land wars, and while most 'Geddon stax don't run it, it has applications when Ensnaring Bridge is involved. It gets the +1/+1 after declared as an attacker.

When I played this deck, I never went for a turn 2 angel simply because I never wanted to get my Angel StP'ed/Smothered/Edict'ed etc. I would ALWAYS wait to play an angel until after I got down 3sphere/Chalice.

Despite these facts, I would probably stick with Exalted if you use them. Not these.

Pce,

--DC

[f|i[p]]

The one thing that looks interesting about the angel. You can leave her big 'ole butt back on defense and turn all your Magus' and Factorys into 2/x lifelinkers.

-FB...


The card is interesting since it would make magus 3/7 as well factory.

But we never really attack with magus if we have exalted angel out, we attack with angel and block with magus. (unless the creature is flying)

The thing with this creature is she really cant block and gain you life.

You cant play her first turn either and haver her morphed out and kicking butt, on your second turn.

You can't cast her for 3 to have as a blocker. If you happen to be struggling with your mana.


When I played this deck, I never went for a turn 2 angel simply because I never wanted to get my Angel StP'ed/Smothered/Edict'ed etc. I would ALWAYS wait to play an angel until after I got down 3sphere/Chalice.

Sometimes its worth the risk.

[Rush]

If you're asking if it should replace Sexy, not only in this deck, but any deck running it, I would say no. If you're trying to find more muscle, I'd say possibly, but I still think Serra Avenger is superior to this.

EDIT: If you are going to try out the new Angel, I would say try Crawl Space. It just seems like they might have synergy.

[dragzz]

I believe crawlspace have been tested before and have been found to be a waste of time.



A resolved one could result in a better matchup vs. Landstill varients--4/4 land-creatures tend to win in land wars, and while most 'Geddon stax don't run it, it has applications when Ensnaring Bridge is involved. It gets the +1/+1 after declared as an attacker.


Do you mean to say that we should run Nantuko monastery, then run ensnaring bridge, just to get full use of the angel?