[Deck] Armageddon Stax

[Nihil Credo]

Karmic Justice > Hanna's Custody.

[Skeggi]

Karmic Justice > Hanna's Custody.
And Karmic Justice sucks. Therefor...

[Arsenal]

Totally forgot that Karmic Justice existed, and yeah, it was just a brainstorm; I have a playset in my binder (good ol' Rath cycle).

[The Wes]

I've been running Elspeth (2 of) and Humility (3 of) for about a month, on workstation, but was gonna wait till I took it to a tourney to post anything aobut it. So far its rather fun, and annoys a lot of people. I'll have to check out the replenish. Running creatureless does help in some situations, but less so in others. I still find myself being raped now and again by an army of 1/1s. I keep 2 tabernacles main for just such a reason. Just a note though on the dutch build, why kor haven with humility? Just extra protection, or to keep the plainswalker alive? Also with humility I find myself relying on smokestack much more to win the game, so I wouldn't go lower than 3 of. I do like the inclusion of powder keg a lot though and shall have to try it.

I think Karmic might be a little better in a build like this relying on enchantments more and with replenish...ya never know.

[Skeggi]

Just a note though on the dutch build, why kor haven with humility? Just extra protection, or to keep the plainswalker alive?
That's exactly why :wink:. The 1-of seems random, but often when I do draw it, it comes in pretty handy :smile:.

Also with humility I find myself relying on smokestack much more to win the game, so I wouldn't go lower than 3 of.
I understand this problem, however, I have no idea what to cut for it. Perhaps run a third and make it 61 cards (I'm probably angering the 60-card deck gods here; also; ZOMG 61 cards and only 24 landz! AMAGAD)...

I think Karmic might be a little better in a build like this relying on enchantments more and with replenish...ya never know.Karmic Justice looks good on paper, but there's never something I want to side out for it. Then, it never gets used and it just sits there in the sideboard.

[The Wes]

I'd try out one less O ring main and then one more smokestack. I used to sb out my trini's for karmic's versus survial. Helped to stop their sliver enchant/arifact destruction annoyingness. With humility this becomes less of a problem. I still have a love/hate relationship with Karmic though, I know its mostly bad, it rarely works out for me, but it just looks so damn good on paper. Also the few times I've used to against a deck dropping serinity its just made me smile so much.
Off to a better question though, is replenish really that good? A one of main? Do ghostly, humility, and o ring really make it worth it?
Oh, and it seems like you might need some of those tabernacles main in a deck with no magus. Otherwise you are gonna have a lot of decks that can just keep attacking with their 1/1s.
So many random ideas. Must playtest more!

[Skeggi]

Oh, and it seems like you might need some of those tabernacles main in a deck with no magus. Otherwise you are gonna have a lot of decks that can just keep attacking with their 1/1s.Humility and Moat handles that. In theory :wink:.

So many random ideas. Must playtest more!
QFT! :smile:

[Mordel]

Those decks are crazy. Not in a bad way, just very different compared to 99.9% of the lists that I usually see. I am not really digging moats and humility as the only enchantments that stand in the way of savage rape by creatures if only because two white mana can be a bitch to get in an unlucky game and even some with deceptively awesome hands. Humility seems really awesome though. I like factories a lot in general, but with three humilities, most of the time you will be paying one colourless to make a factory a 1/1, while you opponent has a number of other 1/1's because you aren't running magus anymore. It is a two way street though and all of a sudden your factory trades with 'naughts I suppose. In that respect, it is awesome, but I am tempted to say [tentatively] take out the factories in favor of additional white sources in a build that runs both moat and humility. I understand the other uses of factory, but in a build that basically hides behind a moat ideally, factory seems sort of "meh".

[The Wes]

Under humility factory is still a 2/2. So no worries, it just can't tap to give itself +1/+1 I don't think. Moat and humilty arn't the only thing, you also have 4 ghostly prisons. I'm not sure both moat and humility are needed together though. Elspeth can still make your factories attack for a decent amount in the air.

[f|i[p]]

So in a sense, humility replaces magus of the tabernacle...I am actually not sure how this shores up our problem with single creatures being equipped, but it still handles tarmogoyf and stalker very well. So now Elspeth is going to be one of the win conditions and I assume its with indestructible tokens.

Although a mishra kill is always an option, It makes the deck really slow.. What happens to our swarm aggro match up,now that theres no more taxing for each creature they control? Although humilty does delay the game for you to be able to draw a ghostly prison.

One thing we have to consider and ask ourselves is
Does humility really do a better job than magus of the tabernacle? In what match ups is it good against, Does it make our positive match ups worse?

As for karmic justice, its still good against mass removal, but Hannas custody is better at targeted artifact removal. I think we should also be concerned about the enchantment removal as we would rely on humility and prison to protect us from creatures. Then our sideboard becomes too defensive.

I'm not sure about humility, how good it is or how slow it makes our already slow deck. I remember there were a lot of times I used magus to beat down.

I was actually expecting the replenish build to have a secret tech or something quite different.

[_erbs_]

Humility is good card but i think it doesn't fit the stax shell altogether. Yes it handles creatures very well but with krosan grip and other enchantment killing cards with no support like counter magic it would easily be crushed.

Against mono white decks that utilizes aura of silence & seal of cleasing your decks deffenses would greatly suffer.

The current geddonstax is good but still lacks cards yet undiscovered or printed to achieve an early lock, but if you shift the deck for early locking the mid to end game part would suffer bec. you don't have any threats thus your opponent could overcome your early lock, unless its a smokestacks lock, but smokestacks takes time before it could be maximized.

A card that maybe could speedup the smokestack with tanglewire is Meditate. It has 3 casting cost playable under trinisphere and can played on the 2nd turn if you where able to cast trini on your 1st turn without giving your opponent a great advantage.


@f|i[p]
Dragon Stompy is deck that uses trinisphere, chalice of the void, & lands that produces 2 colorless man aswell. It has lots of mana accelerants like simian spirit guide, seething song & moxens over geddonstax thats why it has a more powerful early turn drops.

Locks early then aggros mid to end of the game. DS's lock parts are magus of the moon, blood moon, trinisphere, & chalice of the void, it has 2 more cards that could be casted early on thus achieving a much earlier lock over geddonstax.

[dragzz]

Humility is good card but i think it doesn't fit the stax shell altogether. Yes it handles creatures very well but with krosan grip and other enchantment killing cards with no support like counter magic it would easily be crushed.

Against mono white decks that utilizes aura of silence & seal of cleansing your decks defenses would greatly suffer.


Enchantment/Artifact removals has always been a problem and would always be a problem, with or without humility.



A card that maybe could speedup the smokestack with tanglewire is Meditate. It has 3 casting cost playable under trinisphere and can played on the 2nd turn if you where able to cast trini on your 1st turn without giving your opponent a great advantage.


Are you serious? Tanglewire has been tested and has been proven to suck.
I don't see how running meditate could improve your early game

And besides even if the idea could work, what would the list look like? I don't think it would resemble GeddonStax at all.

If you're keen on trying the idea out on a Stax type deck I would suggest you use this list: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20460 or this http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20246 as basis, or maybe post it on the Tez Stax thread.

[Skeggi]

The problem I've encountered with the current Stax build, is that often, a single strong creature can get through, with enough protection from the limited removal I have. You can see this happen in upcoming decks like Dreadstill and Team America, which are gaining more and more popularity because of good tournament results.

Most of these "I thump you with 1 big critter and make sure it survives long enough until you die"-decks pack blue, that's why I basically now include a plateau maindeck and boils in my sideboard. But this is only step 1 against these archetypes.

I've been quite negative about Elspeth, I know. I still would be, if you just simply try to fit her in the current Stax build. She needs a build tweaked to her likings, a world where all creatures are tiny and small. This she finds in Humility. She also needs protection until Humility is there; Ghostly Prison doesn't protect her, and because of Humility, other blockers than her own loyal soldiers and Mishra's Factory she shouldn't expect. But there is Moat to take most of the threats away.

The funny thing is, that Elspeth, Humility and Moat all have synergy together. Elspeth + Humility makes sure your tiny men can trade with Tarmogoyfs, Tombstalkers and Nimble Mongeese.

Humility + Moat makes sure no creatures can attack; this keeps you safe until you set up your lock.

Elspeth + Moat makes sure most creatures can't attack you. If a Tombstalker, Swans of Brynn Argol or a Trygon Predator comes flying overhead, you need to find outs in the form of Oblivion Rings or Humility, but after that, she's very safe again.

The Elspeth, Humility, Moat set-up is designed in a meta where Dreadstill and Team America are rising, but still can cope with any other deck. Normal Aggro never was a problem, and still shouldn't be a problem. Combo still has the same problems with our Chalices and Trinispheres. Control...well, the idea is that our match-up against control now is better :wink:

Let me explain some of the choices and functionalities in the following list (it's the same list as the second one a few posts back):

Dutch Stax with Moats


Planeswalkers
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Enchantments
3 Moat
3 Humility
4 Oblivion Ring

Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds

Sorceries
4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
1 Replenish

Lands
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Kor Haven
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Plateau
7 Plains


Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle
4 Powder Keg (possible Teeg Killer)
3 Boil
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Replenish (post Grip reviver)

As noted before: Mishra's Factory rules the field when Humility is in play. No creatures are bigger. It gets even more fun with Elspeth and Moat in play: no creatures can attack you, and Mishra's Factory is an unblockable 5/5 because of Elspeth's second ability (checked with a judge, this ruling is confirmed).

I've explained before that cards like Krosan Grip and Gaddock Teeg could pose problems agains us; that's why we have Powder Kegs and Replenishes in the sideboard. The 1-of mainboard Replenish acts as a little insurance mid-late game.

I took out Ghostly Prisons in this list. Yes, they have very good synergy with Armageddon, but in a list with Planeswalkers and Moat (+Humility) they seem obsolete.

I haven't tested this list yet, it's all just theory. I will test this list this weekend and Monday, and report back on Tuesday :smile:. I think that on paper this list looks solid; the only problems I anticipate are the aforementioned double white costs. That's why I might be inclined to play around with the manabase a bit. If this doesn't work, so be it. I must add that Marcel Gelissen (who ended up somewhere in the top 16 in a 141-man tournament) still hasn't given me his list, and perhaps never will. This is just my version of things.

[Mordel]

This might be sort of a given, but another strike against humility instead of prisons/magus etc is that I usually am pretty stoked on my opponent eventually resorting to saccing lands if they try to dig themselves out of a lock. The bulk of decks I see don't really run a lot of creatures anyway, so humility might be something I want to look into testing for sure. There are many times(threshthreshthresh) for example, where a humility and magus are almost interchangeable as far as function is concerned for me. Maybe I am playing the deck wrong or something, but for a lot of matchups already good matches, I don't see a big difference between the two. Humility also makes some matchups better, but as pointed out previously, it makes some normally good matches worse.

For anyone that has been reading my thoughts on this and is wondering at my sort of circular thinking about the replacement of prison/magus, I am basically considering moat and humility the best two cards to go with if I am going to be cutting magus. The reason I am thinking this is that in theory my only vulnerability will be to swarm strategies and a single dude with a jitte or sword...I have even seen a rancor lately(!!) and I don't really want to fuck around with something that will make these situations just as bad. Two white mana for my defense cards might even be worth the extra slots opened up by the absence of magus.

It is only a matter of time before a purist comes and tells people why cutting magi in favor of humility is a bad plan, but in my somewhat limited opinion this deck will have to see some sort of radical attempts at innovation and eventually something awesome wil be discovered or it is just going to stay where it is in metagames as a really brutal deck to not be prepared for, but also really vulnerable to some dominant decks' inherent strategies.

Right now I am trying to figure out if I want to test a build with bridges/magi/prison/Elspeth or humility/Elspeth/Moat/O-Rings for protection slots. I'm kind of hesitant to ditch the magi just yet considering I have recently stopped playing angels(gasp). I haven't tested three bridges a lot, but so far, they have been treating me pretty well, the only thing that has come up was a kill took a bit longer than I would have liked because I wasn't able to pump my magus and swing over some guys while I was waiting for my opponent to start losing creatures to a smoker set on one and I was having shitty luck waiting for a geddon.

[Skeggi]

This might be sort of a given, but another strike against humility instead of prisons/magus etc is that I usually am pretty stoked on my opponent eventually resorting to saccing lands if they try to dig themselves out of a lock.
Here you are relying on your opponent to make a mistake. I prefer just making a stronger deck where it doesn't matter what your opponent sacrifices, he'll just die anyway. Plus, Magus and Smokestack don't really have synergy. It's the main flaw of the deck.


Maybe I am playing the deck wrong or something, but for a lot of matchups already good matches, I don't see a big difference between the two.
There is a significant difference if you play Elspeth. Humility + Elspeth have synnergy. Humility + Magus have dissynergy (is that a word?).

For anyone that has been reading my thoughts on this and is wondering at my sort of circular thinking about the replacement of prison/magus, I am basically considering moat and humility the best two cards to go with if I am going to be cutting magus.
It's not about replacing Prison and Magus, it's about including Elspeth.

It is only a matter of time before a purist comes and tells people why cutting magi in favor of humility is a bad plan, but in my somewhat limited opinion this deck will have to see some sort of radical attempts at innovation and eventually something awesome wil be discovered or it is just going to stay where it is in metagames as a really brutal deck to not be prepared for, but also really vulnerable to some dominant decks' inherent strategies.
The list isn't coming from no-where. It's based on the idea of a deck that was very succesful. It had no problems beating a deck like Aggro Loam, a deck I cannot beat with a traditional list.

[Mordel]

As far as my vocabulary is concerned, radical does not mean random or poorly-thought-out, it means a big change basically. Removal of magus, etc in favor of humility, moat and Elspeth is a big change in my opinion anyway. You don't need to defend your build against me for the most part because I think it is a good idea.

Dissynergy wasn't a word until you said it, but it works anyway =P

For me, including Elspeth was as easy as including bridges. Adding humility and moat obviously helps with running and abusing her(heh) more, but as far as I am concerned, even without her existing, they are inclusions that are worth a closer look. I think that I just got a wild hair up my ass and am going to play some matches with your list in the next few days instead of my bridge list, which more or less feels like 'geddon stax with bridges and Elspeth thrown...I don't know if that last part makes sense though: I am kind of tired.

I am liking the boils for sure though. It is nice to not get burnt by having a chalice for two down. Keg for Teeg seems kind of sketchy though...have you been having luck with that at all or is it still sort of preliminary?

[Skeggi]

As far as my vocabulary is concerned, radical does not mean random or poorly-thought-out, it means a big change basically. Removal of magus, etc in favor of humility, moat and Elspeth is a big change in my opinion anyway.That's why I gave it a new name: Dutch Stax :smile:

Keg for Teeg seems kind of sketchy though...have you been having luck with that at all or is it still sort of preliminary?
Keg is not just for Teeg, it also does wonders against Ichorid for example. Anyway, I used to side in Oblivion Rings in a match against Teegs. These seemed not to be enough. Now I play Oblivion Rings maindeck, and have Powder Kegs as a back-up. And yes, against Teegs, has proven very useful. The decks I've played against which included Teeg, where mostly BGW Rock, so Powder Keg@2 cleared Teeg, Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant. Yippeeka-yay motherfucker! :laugh:

[Mordel]

Oh yeah, for sure. I was sort of lukewarm on the idea of keg because I set chalices for two asap in almost every match I play, but kegs in for the second match means eight possible answers to two cc cards(though one is more temporary). I bet powder kegs probably prompted a "wtf?!" from your opponent. I'd be surprised to see a keg in a stax sideboard anyway...then again maybe I am just tired.

I took the liberty of ripping off your list, but replacing the sideboard tabs with Ajani, vengeants for a laugh. I have 99% of the stuff for white stax(or Skegstax as mws calls your list) at home and there are some dudes that play 1.5 where I am living right now, so I might just throw one list together and if I do, I have no tabernacles anyway...yet I have some moats.

I started a quick match with a dude on mws and he disconnected on game two who was playing some sort of goblin sligh jank(good cards in the deck, just janky), but with a few little fishes and that one half(or maybe third of a match), the deck has a way different feel than traditional builds. I don't know how I feel about it overall yet, but I am liking it on paper anyway. I think I might up the tomb/city numbers eventually with testing though.

Based off the one match I played, I am liking the moats and humilities for sure though. I never saw an Elspeth, but whatever. I'll get to see her in action tommorow probably. If I end up going in any little mini tournies with it, Ajani in the side might end up being something I like a lot because the deck feels a lot more like a concession deck than the builds that I am more familiar with.

Good work on the list though, I like its overall feel and function with the small amount of testing that I have done so far.

[f|i[p]]

@erbs

I know what dragon stompy is, and I know how they play it, I was simply indicating that I have never played against a dragon stompy player...

@ elspeth

In my testing, when I played elspeth in place of my angels, I never really liked her at all, magus and prisons can't guarantee her protection. I would almost always rather have exalted angels in her place.

However, if elspeth is going to be protected by moat and humility, then it becomes a different story. Elspeth would almost be a perfect fit. Unlike magus and prison, moat and humility is a lock by itself.

My thoughts on the deck:

I think this version of stax almost has the same concept, but then now you wonder if armageddons should still be in the place they are in, The way I see it one of the main purposes of armageddon was to complement ghostly prison and the magus lock. having a moat and humility lock is enough on it own, you wont really need to blow up lands as much as we needed to when we had magus and ghostly prisons in that place. Armageddon still has its purpose but now that we wont be totally reliant on a geddon, we can probably cut their numbers to 3 and make more space for something else.

The deck looks very promising by itself.
Although I think the list should have these basics:

The stax core cards

4 moats
4 humility
2-3 elspeth
2-4 O rings, I think 4 O. rings is very excessive, I was quite happy with 2 main deck and the rest in the sideboard.
1 Replensih

Now we can go cut down to
3-4 armageddon
We probably can lessen the wasteland count and bump up to
4 mishra's factory

One of the problems I can think of, is Moat!... They are crazy expensive and very very hard to find... I actually think the card is over priced....

Great job skeggi... It was a very interesting find, now all we have to do is tweak it and prove that this is the way or another way to go in the stax archetype.

[Mordel]

I hear you, Flip:

I haven't tested the tweaked version much so far, but in the next few days things will become clearer in regards to armageddon. Right now, I am not impressed with four geddons because while they are awesome, more often than not they are basically a way to lock off my opponent's ability to cast anything and/or force them to start saccing off non-lands to smokers. I still like geddon, but because its functionality has been some what reduced by the removal of main deck magi, I think I am going to see how cutting them back to three and maybe keeping one in my sideboard to accompany my magi is what I will go with. Right now, I am going to keep the four and see if I continue to feel the same, but I have a feeling geddons might see some cutbacks.

I have played against three different variations of stiflenaught and I have to say that the matchup is fucking outstanding with the changes now. Factories are somewhat annoying though and force me to rely more heavily on moat, wasteland and geddons. It isn't entirely bad, but a few irksome encounters with factories in standstill decks have made me consider adding a very European 61st wasteland.

Replenish has been feeling like a wasted draw more often than not, but I am sure that the singleton copy in the main will prove to be back breaking in matches that I would otherwise lose.

Edit: This is slightly off topic, but does anyone know of any online communities that have tournies regularly or people that don't suck to playtest with because legacy players are kind of sparse on magic-league and 1.5 tournaments are almost non-existent. People keep on disconnecting after game one with Skeggi's build and I am not getting much opportunity to test the sideboard.

Something I noticed with the sideboard, but hasn't bit me in the ass yet is nothing for the burn/sligh match really. I got really lucky against a sligh deck and managed to stall the shit out of him and get a chalice/3sphere down before a geddon with his hand apparently full of bolts, chain lightnings and seal of fires. It was a lucky game for me. Sphere of law(which has pretty nice synergy with humility imo) or whatever suits one's taste might be a good bet because until the end of the game(that Elspeth COMPLETELY DOMINATED) he could have easily gone incinerate--->fireblast kkggbai.

[_erbs_]

@dragzz
I was just suggesting that maybe it could help. Im not saying that it would fit perfectly.

Medidate could speed up the smokestack clock for your opponent and you have now the option in adding a counter on your smokestack making it 2 on the next turn since your opponent is under trinisphere he/she can't do as much and with the draw it gives it could give you an advantage by drawing more lock parts.


@f|i[p]
Good points on the armageddon + magus + ghostly.

With regards to elspeth when i tried exalted angel i never played elspeth again. In the current geddonstax exalted angel is still the best fit just for me.

________________________________________________

Humility + Moat
Is really a good combo but what i don't like about the idea is that it doesn't fit a stax shell that well. It would weaken the decks defenses in reverse.

Since you have Humility, Moat, & Elspeth you'll surely cut magus and angels on the deck and lessen several cards on the deck to accomodate 10-11 cards atleast. If you cut/lessen ghostly prision, armageddon, trinisphere, cow, smokestack, chalice or oring. If you cut/lessen the artifacts you'll be weakening the decks early turns, if you cut geddon, cow, & smokestack you'll be weaking the lock.

For me humility + moat is another way of dealing for creatures with abilities and singleton aggro creatures. But most of the time magus / oring could handle/block that singleton aggro creatures assuming they are not flying and with creatures with ability oring could handle it aswell.

If i where to add X cards to the current geddonstax deck i think adding another locking mechanism is much better that adding a new form of creature control.

Humility + Moat just for me would be better off in some other decks that maximizes enlightened tutor to quicken its application. With enlightened tutor it could fetch:
- moat
- humility
- ghostly prision
- oblivion ring
- sacred mesa / mobilization = another form of win condition
- tormod's crypt if needed
- defense grid if needed
- pithing needle if needed
- aura of silence / seal of cleasing if needed
- poweder keg if needed

the list goes on.

Adding 1-2 Serra's Sanctum would be nice if humility and moat would find its way on the geddonstax deck.

If i see the concept in the wrong way, please enlighten me im totally very much open in making geddonstax a much better deck in its current state.

What are the reasons that humility + moat would be included in current geddonstax list, what problems does it solve that the current list can't handle ?

[Mordel]

Moat and humility so far have improved some normally not great matches and make Elspeth a more consistent source of fuel for smoker, rather than a brief distraction for my opponent some of the time and a smokestack-feeder other times.

Personally, I am still liking the change, but I haven't run into any swarm strategies or decks that could easily remove moat yet, excluding a janky rockish homebrew thing, which was horribly easy to beat.

[f|i[p]]

@ cutting armageddon

You don't really need to cut armageddon to 3, all I am saying now you have the option to cut it from what used to be 4-5 , now we can cut it to 3-4.Its just that armageddon would have fewer uses.

@ magus

I was actually planning on keeping him on the sideboard as well but with humilities he becomes quite useless..although he would still serve as added swarm hate. This will however depend on the metagame

@Replenish

Yes replenish seems to be more of a back up plan for enchantments, I don't really think it belongs main deck. I think this could stay on the sideboard as a back up plan against grips and enchantment hate. I'm not sold on it yet.

With more enchantments in place, and less creatures I see the deck being less vulnerable to creature hate.

@ Red sligh or burn

In all honesty I would just rather have cop:red if its such a problem for you.
Its more mana intensive than sphere of law, but it shuts them down completely.

Also you have to understand, that if you know what deck you are facing you always have to mulligan to a good hand...or at least an acceptable one if you don't know what your facing...



Humility + Moat
Is really a good combo but what i don't like about the idea is that it doesn't fit a stax shell that well. It would weaken the decks defenses in reverse.

Since you have Humility, Moat, & Elspeth you'll surely cut magus and angels on the deck and lessen several cards on the deck to accomodate 10-11 cards atleast. If you cut/lessen ghostly prision, armageddon, trinisphere, cow, smokestack, chalice or oring. If you cut/lessen the artifacts you'll be weakening the decks early turns, if you cut geddon, cow, & smokestack you'll be weaking the lock.


I don't think it will weaken the decks defenses in reverse. In fact I actually think it strengthens the decks defenses.

First you'll have to understand that moat alone shuts down goblins,goyf, goose, dreadnaughts and a lot more.

As for humility,Turning all creatures into 1/1's is quite positive. The only drawback I see with it, is facing a swarm of 1/1's. Even goblins which is the best aggro deck there is slows down with humility. If you compare humility to magus there are pro's and cons. Humility shuts down siege gang, multiple pile drivers, ringleaders, matrons sharpshooters etc., which magus does not(thus humility shuts down their alternate win con). One major problem with humility is that it doesn't block those 1/1's. That's why I suggested bumping factories to 4. Another is no apparent armageddon synergy.

If you can imagine goblins being hit by humility,meaning no ring leaders no warchiefs, no, matrons, no siege gang abilities. It will be like playing against a deck with every creature as 1/1's. Stax vs 1/1 goblins. Think of that. Although it doesn't change the fact that they can still out swarm you (added with tombs, this can still hurt).

Some match ups where moats and humility would still be useful (until they destroy it)
Survival
Aggro Loam
Threshold
Dreadnaught

@ replacing parts of stax
Its only our creature control that moat and humility would replace which means ghostly prison and magus. we are not going to lessen the stax shell as it is. Although because armageddon has less synergy with moats and humility, its one of the reasons I suggested cutting geddon to 3-4 instead of 4-6 (this will always be a player option).

Over all I don't think the lock would weaken at all.

@ serras sanctum, it will not belong to the deck at all, Imagine drawing serras sanctum without any enchantments in play. It wont produce any color at all.

Our problem decks like landstill and deed based decks would still be a problem.Stompy variants, will need testing.

[Skeggi]

Humility + Moat
Is really a good combo but what i don't like about the idea is that it doesn't fit a stax shell that well. It would weaken the decks defenses in reverse.

You're right here. It would weaken the deck's defense in reverse. Weakening in reverse is strengthen. Thank you.


Since you have Humility, Moat, & Elspeth you'll surely cut magus and angels on the deck and lessen several cards on the deck to accomodate 10-11 cards atleast. If you cut/lessen ghostly prision, armageddon, trinisphere, cow, smokestack, chalice or oring. If you cut/lessen the artifacts you'll be weakening the decks early turns, if you cut geddon, cow, & smokestack you'll be weaking the lock.Surely? Did you even read the list?


If i where to add X cards to the current geddonstax deck i think adding another locking mechanism is much better that adding a new form of creature control.Moat + Humility is a lock. The great thing about this strategy is that it doesn't require Armageddon to function. The traditional Armageddon Stax list relies heavily on Armageddon, everything in the deck has great synergy with Armageddon. So if an Armageddon gets countered, or you draw none, you're pretty much screwed. This lock doesn't require Armageddon and that's why it would fit in nicely. It's also why the deck's name is Dutch Stax.

What are the reasons that humility + moat would be included in current geddonstax list, what problems does it solve that the current list can't handle ?
Why do you ask questions that have been answered a few posts back?
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=294979&postcount=1013
Sorry if I sound too defensive, the list hasn't been tested enough, so it can turn out to suck, I understand. But I'm slightly annoyed if you just bulge in and didn't even read the post and the list what it's all about.

[Mordel]

I just wrapped up a match against monoblue dreadstill and it was a hard match for sure, but I am feeling like the new build is far, far better suited for beating the shit out of it. I didn't even side the boils in because I couldn't really figure out what to take out for them.

One of the big factors with humility and moat in this match which is hinted at in the post Skeggi just made is that 'geddon is not a required way to mitigate being attacked or whatever because both pieces are very strong individually, so a game isn't hinged on whether or not your geddon gets fow'd or whether you can manage to crucible lock them or not. This is a quality I sort of got an inkling about, but did not fully appreciate until my most recent match against dreadstill. I am seeing a metric fucktonne of dreadnaughts and goyfs right now, so I don't want one card that requires another to resolve in order to stop myself from getting raped because sometimes I am only getting one opportunity to resolve a piece for a while(for example when my opponent got a soft Venser lock on me and pulled a daze out of his ass...aka two card hand).

To be honest, I like the older magus build, which fits into more swarm-aggro metas(in my opinion), but even without Elspeth, I would be liking moats and humility because right now the name of the game for me is dealing with a dreadnaught/goyf/tombstalker with dazes,forces and whatever backing them up. All I have been seeing lately are decks that fit into those molds. I am really hoping I can test against some Canadian Thresh and so forth to round things out, but right now the new-fangled build is doing pretty well.

One of my few concerns during games has been not enough wasteland and factory though. I'm already running a sixty-first city, so stuff wil have to be removed once I get a better feel for things.

@Skeggi: I have been having issues figuring out what to side out for boils in blue-based dreadstill-type decks...got any insight there?
Dreadstill is basically three decks in one, so it is kind of hard to side well for in my experience.

[_erbs_]

@Skeggi
Here is the list im talking about.
_______________________________________
Dutch Stax with Moats

Code:
Planeswalkers
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Enchantments
3 Moat
3 Humility
4 Oblivion Ring

Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds

Sorceries
4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
1 Replenish

Lands
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Kor Haven
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Plateau
7 PlainsCode:
Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle
4 Powder Keg (possible Teeg Killer)
3 Boil
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Replenish (post Grip reviver)
_________________________________________
Your Post Skeggi

The problem I've encountered with the current Stax build, is that often, a single strong creature can get through, with enough protection from the limited removal I have. You can see this happen in upcoming decks like Dreadstill and Team America, which are gaining more and more popularity because of good tournament results.
___________________________________________

Dreadstill's Mana Curve is very low, if your able to drop trinisphere, cotv, or if you have it in the sb sphere of resistance, it would post very big problems for them. I don't think dreadstill packs tons of counter magic to be able to counter all your threats. And having such low mana curve countertop wouldn't help them that much.

A magus / ghostly prison + geddon combo would almost stop dreadnought in its tracks.

If your pushing for the moat + humility combo, i think you should push it to 4 of each since they are now the main defenses of the deck against creatures.

Why not add something or some sort of additional mana denial mechanism besides trinisphere & geddon so that your opponent would have a hard time casting them.

With humility and moat yes it sloves the problem of dealing with decks that runs 2 colorless lands & trini aswell.

In that list you lessen your early game lock by reducing your 2 colorless mana and decreasing 1 card for an early lock. You increase your mid to end game creature defense via moat and humility. They both have 4 casting cost and requires double WW.

With that list yes you have a solution against a second turn stifle-nought.

If you draw your 1 or your 4 moxens + 1 of your 6 2 colorless producing mana + 1 of your 11 white mana. And you hold an oring, humility or moat in hand. You have 10 cards that could deal with a 2nd turn stifle-nought against the old list which has 3-4 orings.

Humility + Moat is a creature lock indeed. But if some sort of mana denial is to be added i think it would be much better but that just me. Yes the list above doesn't rely greatly on geddon yet you still have 5 geddon effects, maybe you just forgot to lessen the number since it doesn't have much synergy with humility + moat.


Thanks for the Sarcastic Posts.

Sorry if my ideas sounds very noobish compared to yours which are great.

[Skeggi]

@Skeggi: I have been having issues figuring out what to side out for boils in blue-based dreadstill-type decks...got any insight there?
Dreadstill is basically three decks in one, so it is kind of hard to side well for in my experience.
Against decks that play only blue based lands, like Dreadstill, Boil is strictly better than Armageddon because it's an instant. You can cast it in your own EOT in response to their cantripping and Topping for stuff. How useful are Oblivion Rings in this MU by the way?

The only target is Phyrexian Dreadnought. You may as well side in Powder Keg, as it also forces your opponent to put a Top on top. Edit: oops. Keg doesn't kill enchantments. Thanks DeathScythe :smile:.

Sometimes I play radically and take out the Smokestacks. Often cards like Pithing Needle (on Top or Flooded Strand) are stronger in this MU.



Dreadstill's Mana Curve is very low, if your able to drop trinisphere, cotv, or if you have it in the sb sphere of resistance, it would post very big problems for them. I don't think dreadstill packs tons of counter magic to be able to counter all your threats. And having such low mana curve countertop wouldn't help them that much.
Still they often beat Armageddon Stax. It's because of the following:

A magus / ghostly prison + geddon combo would almost stop dreadnought in its tracks.
This is a three card combo. Dreadstill packs enough protection to stop an Armageddon: they may only pack 4 FoW and 4 Daze, but they use it on your Armageddon. They also play Krosan Grip to kill whatever Chalice or Trinisphere you may have. Ghostly Prison generally isn't a problem.

If your pushing for the moat + humility combo, i think you should push it to 4 of each since they are now the main defenses of the deck against creatures.
This is a valid point. Testing will show what the correct numbers are, it could be that they need to be played 4 of each.

Why not add something or some sort of additional mana denial mechanism besides trinisphere & geddon so that your opponent would have a hard time casting them.This has been tried before, with Sphere of Resistance or Defense Grid for instance. Often these things are useless with a Trinisphere out. But agreed, they do improve your chances of having a taxing effect on the table. However, like all taxing effects, it relies heavily on Armageddon to work.

Yes the list above doesn't rely greatly on geddon yet you still have 5 geddon effects, maybe you just forgot to lessen the number since it doesn't have much synergy with humility + moat.
Yes, as Flip pointed out, the number of Armageddons may be dropped. Testing will have to point out what the correct number of Armageddons is. I include 5 because it still is a heavy bomb you can drop.


Thanks for the Sarcastic Posts.

Sorry if my ideas sounds very noobish compared to yours which are great.
In your post it looked like you didn't read the list. I've made arguments in my response as to why. If you have a problem with that, please contact a mod. I have no intention of polluting this forum with more of this.

[DeathScythe]

side note: keg doesn't kill enchantments

[Mordel]

Actually, in the second game, I drew an O-ring and was like "oh fuck!", but luckily his build ran Vensers and trinket mages(though I never saw the latter hit play...I assume they were in there somewhere though). My managing to win the second game in this particular case was completely hinged on my using ring as counter fodder for venser first and then a way of stopping the lock(riptide) when he ran out of counters.

I could have cut them down probably, but I took a dilotid today, so my thinking process hasn't been what it normally is. During the matchup mentioned, I am pretty sure I smelled my hair burning at a few points.

Overall though stopping counterbalance/naught/wizard tricks has been a good reason to keep three in these matches. None of the games have turned out horribly and have been complete blow outs yet, so my thoughts on o-rings might change when that happens eventually. As it stands, I like 'em.

I actually did take a few liberties with the sideboard though because I had a really bad experience with another Rgb tarmo-sligh sort of deck that went heavily in the burn direction that was the final straw for the not being able to deal with burn in a really competent manner outside of 3sphere and chalice...

3xboil
2xreplenish
3xpowder keg
3xsphere of law
4xaura of silence

Heh, triangle sb. Anyway I felt sort of naked with no way to stop enchantments and aura works in the mirror, which I am fucking dreading.

One thing that I have been really surprised with so far has been the lack of issues casting double white casting cost cards, but like many things, that might change after a really brutal match against TA, DS or something like that. I have always sort of considered DS to be a write-off though and just leave it up to luck because making a absolutely fucking bad match into an extremely bad match that I need to play first in order to win isn't really worth it in the end to me.

[Nihil Credo]

With plenty of non-stacking permanents (Moat, Humility, "Replenish") plus Elspeth tokens to sacrifice, I would take a guess that Dutch Stax probably wants the full Smokestack playset. Especially since the decks it's aimed to beat run few permanents themselves.

[f|i[p]]

@Mordel
If I know my opponent is playing a deck with few permanents, I tend to focus more on the lock itself. Having 3 O. Rings Trinisphere main, chalice, should really help against dreadstill... Sphere of resistance too if you ever run it on the side. I think this deck is particularly stronger than the ones with prisons and magus, as both ghostly prison and magus, will just be a minor annoyance to dreadstill. MOat is a must counter as well as Humility. Makes everything you have got pretty much a must counter..This will end up as land wars eventually. Elspeth would help here but only as a 2 of might be a problem. Pithing needles also help the lock naming fetchlands, wasteland, mishra or anything you need stoped from activating at all. Boil is a good card against blue, but if you face more dual lands and non basics,you can also use blood moon which comes a turn faster and makes mishra, dual lands(considering they dont have a red base) and wastelands useless mana sources.Since we run around 6-8 basic lands and mox diamond, it wont hurt us as much as it hurts them.

@ the deck

Splashing red is not a must. If you don't like it don't splash it. It was just splashed for an added out on blue.You can also stay mono white, and it would just be as strong.

Humility and Moat doesn't necessarily have to be together all the time. Humility alone makes creatures almost worthless. Moat will make more creatures look silly. IT DOESN'T ALWAYS HAVE TO BE A COMBO...

I don't understand why people insist that it should be a combo. I would rather suggest that people compare the creature hate individually.

Is moat > magus of the tabernacle ? why?
Is moat > ghostly prison ? why?
Is humility > magus of the tabernacle ? Why?
Is humility > ghostly prison ? why?

There are always up's and downside to each replacement we make, all we are trying to do is improve the deck. I have already mentioned some match ups where I think moat and humility is a lot better than ghostly and magus. And not depending armageddon to seal the deal just makes moat and humility a lot better.

I will state the problem I see again (with regards to humility being alone in play), swarm decks. But this won't even be a major issue. a bunch of 1/1's hitting you won't hurt as much. An equipped 1/1 would hurt however. With regard to goblins, a single moat would make em stare at the wall.

The problem of moat( in regards to being alone) is tombstalker,angels and faeries, basically anything that flies. If you can see this.. magus can't block them anyway. They never make a swarm of exalted angels or tombstalkers. So normally they would eventually play around ghostly prison too. Although an armageddon would seal the deal, that would be a 2 card combo just to deal with it. Then you see faeries would be a problem. But then putting down humility on them makes em all 1/1's. Which won't hurt as much.

Its a situation to situation basis really.Sometimes, if moat wont hurt the deck as much, humility will. If humility doesn't hurt the deck as much,moat will. Together however it would be just a hard lock.

I am not actually pushing for the change, but I can see a very good potential in it. We all have to help out in testing it if you want stax to improve.

As for my current list which includes 4 of each moat and humility and without replenish(I really think replenish should stay on the sideboard), I am still contemplating if I should cut down geddon to 3 and maybe add another elspeth or smokestack just like Nihil said to be able to take advantage of the permanent count. Thinking about permanent advantage brings to my mind mobilization. Mobilization works very well with Elspeth (soldier tokens),smokestack and humility. It would bolster our win conditions as well as our defense from swarm aggro. We however have to test Moat and humility first and how it affects the deck overall.

I will however test this against goblins as well as angel stompy to asses both swarm and 1-2 big creature strategy match ups.

[klaus]

;295408']Humility and Moat doesn't necessarily have to be together all the time. Humility alone makes creatures almost worthless. Moat will make more creatures look silly. IT DOESN'T ALWAYS HAVE TO BE A COMBO...
This.
Both, Humility and Moat tend to be 1-card-combos quite often.

[Mordel]

So from testing(in the middle of a game atm) affinity is rough. Might be a write off.

Edit: Done testing for the night and to there isn't a lot to say about affinity other than I won when I got moat/humility off basically, but other than that this match struck me as a blowout. I suppose it could probably be different depending on how things go as far as 3spheres, chalices and enchantments go, but for the most part, it is obscenely luck dependent on my side of the table. For affinity, I would probably feel more comfortable with magus/prison/geddon/kegs. A small sacrifice in my opinion so far and one of the few that has made itself apparent, considering how often I see standstills and dreanaughts, versus seat of synods and ravagers. Needless to say, it was humbling, but may have been less so if I had been playing with real cards and not mws, which decided it hated me tonight.

I got a second serving of humble pie against a random chick(I assume), that was playing an enchantress "girl-themed" deck. I know, I know...I shouldn't even be confessing this, but I was utterly destroyed two matches in a row and luck was largely the culprit(poor white turn-outs in draws and poor city/tomb turnouts in others). Either way, it was sort of brutal, but if everything doesn't connect right, I think the moat/humility build might run into more problems against random jank than the magus/prison builds will...that is a feeling so far, but I have been having issues against unconditional jank in other instances too where trinispheres are hit and miss and chalices may or may not hit more than eight cards out of sixty.

It should be noted that tonight; chalices,crucibles, flagstones and factories were veritably pouring forth from my ass while moats and/or humilities were showing up when the other piece might have been better. In most games a smokestack would have been a great card to draw/get on the table, as well as o-ring, but they didn't. I run four O-rings in my build and am short a ravages of war too, so the odds were with me here, peeps =/

Anyway, aside from absolutely shitty luck and a confirmation of my fears about affinity and poor luck(in white stax...who knew?), not a lot was learned about the new tweaks in Dutch/Skegg stax...other than losing to random jank like nobody's business if you are using mws.

[georgjorge]

Only from looking at the list, it seems that both needing double white and overloading the 4-mana slot could be a problem (there are now 10-11 cards for three mana, but four of them - the Crucibles - don't have any immediate impact on the board for some turns, and another three or four - the Rings - don't do anything towards locking the opponent). Aggro decks with Wasteland and/or Daze could be problematic for those reasons. Maybe combinations other than Humility + Moat could work, depending on the metagame? Like

Humility + Prison: Depends more on Armageddons, synergy between the two
Moat + Bridge: no synergy, both basically do the same except against Goblins

I also think that with Humility, you don't need a full playset of Moats/Prisons, as Elspeth+Humility is just as good as Moat+Humility. Elspeth + Prison should do fine as well if you forget about Dreadnought for a moment.

[Mantis]

Moat/Humility seems like a HUGE improvement. The Magus of the Tabernacle is just bad, they made creature removal relevant against you would otherwise be dead cards. I never had any problems against Magus with Goblins, Ghostly Prison was very annoying though but Moat and Humility are both tons better. If Ghostly Prison was down, Goblins could always win with the Siege-Gang Commander and his minions. With Humility this just doesn't work anymore and it allows Factory to dominate the board.

[Skeggi]

not a lot was learned about the new tweaks in Dutch/Skegg stax...other than losing to random jank like nobody's business if you are using mws.

Well, Enchantress was always a tough list for the traditional Stax list too. In fact, I'd figure Humility actually serves a purpose by stopping Argothian Enchantress. Ofcourse, Enchantress would still be a tough MU. Oh, and Enchantress was invented by Zach Tartell, who is very much not a girl :wink:.

Affinity is a hard (but doable) MU if you don't draw your Trinispheres, this is also true for the traditional list. If you have some experience playing against Affinity, it shouldn't be a real problem though.


Humility + Prison: Depends more on Armageddons, synergy between the two
Moat + Bridge: no synergy, both basically do the same except against Goblins


The first option has been tested; there were versions of Armageddon Stax in the past where people tried this, with limited succes. It's not bad, but Prison just doesn't cover it without Armageddon.

About the second option: I personally don't like Bridge. It needs a near-empty hand to be effective, and you can't attack either. The problem is, that if you can attack, your opponent is likely to have a bigger creature to block with. Or, you can attack with a biggie, but your opponent can also attack with his biggies. And trust me, your opponent more often than not will have bigger and more biggies, you will not win this race.

I understand Moat and Humility are taxing for the manabase, but the reward is pretty big. Not only are they awesome on their own, but together they're incredible. To me, Armageddon Stax must always have either Prison + Magus or Moat + Humility. Other combinations simply lack the synergy.


I also think that with Humility, you don't need a full playset of Moats/Prisons, as Elspeth+Humility is just as good as Moat+Humility. Elspeth + Prison should do fine as well if you forget about Dreadnought for a moment.

As noted before, Humility and Moat are often also good on their own. Also note that Elspeth doesn't get protected by Ghostly Prison, so that Nimble Mongoose (or whatever creature is played next to the Tarmogoyf you really want to block with your soldier token) still nibles her ass.


Moat/Humility seems like a HUGE improvement. The Magus of the Tabernacle is just bad, they made creature removal relevant against you would otherwise be dead cards.

The great thing about Magus of the Tabernacle is that he has an ass of 6. He could block almost anything that walked. But the same is accomplished with either Humility or Moat. Plus, the Magus also has an upkeep...hmm, you might be right. The more I think about it, the more Magus of the Tabernacle sucks compared to the alternatives.

With Magus of the Tabernacle gone, it might be worthwile to play 2-of Wrath of God again...but that's another :2::w::w: spell, haha...just throwing up a ball here :wink:.

[georgjorge]

The first option has been tested; there were versions of Armageddon Stax in the past where people tried this, with limited succes. It's not bad, but Prison just doesn't cover it without Armageddon.

Well, I certainly didn't suggest cutting the 'Geddons :eek: . I basically would just take a "standard" list and replace Magus with Humility. Of course Moat's effect is better than Prison's in every way, it just seems Aggro-Control would get harder to deal with, as dropping your defense on turn three and not on turn two gives them more opportunity to counter/discard that Moat, plus you are more vulnerable to Wastelands and Blood Moons. But there's not enough testing results in anyway, I think...

[Skeggi]

Well, I certainly didn't suggest cutting the 'Geddons :eek: .
I'm sorry, I wasn't referring to a list without Armageddons, I was pointing out that again this is Armageddon-dependant.

[f|i[p]]

@ Mordel

The enchantress match up is really bad.Nothing more to it. They run 60 permanents. And if you ever skimmed through their thread, they love the stax match ups, its almost an auto win.

The affinity match however, I really don't think we would fold that easily to them. Its quite tough as they are swarm based and at the same time they can pump single creatures with cranial plating and have them flying over your head. Having blinkmoth nexus also gives you a problem. But its not entirely as unfavorable as you think.

@ Mantis

Yes I actually hated it when Magus got stp'd. Magus is only good against red(because of his big ass).. but even then, Goblins can find a way to kill magus in time.


Well, I certainly didn't suggest cutting the 'Geddons :eek: . I basically would just take a "standard" list and replace Magus with Humility. Of course Moat's effect is better than Prison's in every way, it just seems Aggro-Control would get harder to deal with, as dropping your defense on turn three and not on turn two gives them more opportunity to counter/discard that Moat, plus you are more vulnerable to Wastelands and Blood Moons. But there's not enough testing results in anyway, I think...

THis is true that dropping them later in the game might get it countered, or discarded. But aggro control of those types usually don't care about ghostly prison since they only attack with a few creatures. They don't even bother to counter prisons or discard it. They would just play around it. With humility and moat.. they are almost a must discard and a must counter. Being 4 to cast might be a problem. How ever I don't think being 4 to cast outweighs its advantages.

[klaus]

;295651']
Yes I actually hated it when Magus got stp'd. Magus is only good with with red.. but even then, Goblins can find a way to kill magus in time.
Sry, I'm probably just really slow atm - please explain what the synergy between "Magus" and "red" (Blood Moon=%STPs%?). Thx.

[Illissius]

He meant "against".

[Mordel]

Yeah, with affinity, I figured that I needed to just draw 3sphere, moat or/and humility. Not bad odds really, but I consider relying on three cards to be akin to leaving something up to luck mroe or less. No biggie. Sometimes I am a lucksack, sometimes I am not.

The enchantress match was spirit-crushing though because it didn't combo, it swung...all the cards required female art on them in order to be included, excluding lands. It ran vampirisms and shit like that. It was brutal and sad. Either way, it knocked the chip off of my shoulder that undefeated in matches until affinity and jankchantress respectively.

[Illissius]

So. Idea, for the sideboard. Voidstone Gargoyle. Looks useful: can name Deed or Explosives; can also name damn near anything else: Burning Wish / Shattering Spree / Reverent Silence, Serenity (though unfortunately not so well if it's already in play), Krosan Grip, Life from the Loam, Tendrils of Agony, Sensei's Divining Top (FWIW), Tombstalker, Aether Vial -- whatever. Also, beats for three. He's a creature, but they're boarding out removal, right? (Not such a great combo with Humility, alas, albeit awesome with Moat.) I'm not a huge Stax expert, but I like this idea a lot.

I'm also really liking the new Moat + Humility + Elspeth builds which are less dependent on Armageddon. One card combos are best.

[Mordel]

The gargoyle sounds like worth a try(I typo'd "tron" originally haha) in non-humility builds, but I wouldn't want to risk running him in the humility/moat variants.

On a testing note, I have been having a hard time find opponents that I can really have reliable test results with because there are so many scrubs on mwsgames...I played, like eight matches or something last night and the most promising match up was against /drumroll on mono-blue dreadstill /cymbalsmash on BUT it turned out that it was some stupid version that ran chrome moxes, diamonds AND(!!!!) lotus petals. Dude that was playing it drew over half of his deck and never drew a dreadnaught or trinket mage, but had no problems drawing all the dazes, fows and standstills early(I mean all of them). Either way death came slow and painfully on the back of a factory that he apparently had no answer for, in the second game he eventually just scooped and disconnected.

I also played against what I surmise to have been some sort of BGWu aggro deck because he got a thoughtseize off on me and had other discard to boot, but I got a first turn chalice off on him while I was on the play(for one of course) and followed with a 3sphere on my next turn and he was like "U wn gg" and dc'd. WTF?!!! I hate these nubcakes!!! This didn't even happen when I played draw-go or stasis.

Good ol' mws testing.

[Skeggi]

I've tried Gargoyle before in the old build, and he went straight out. Just like Windborn Muse, he's simply too vulnerable. Also, costing :3::w::w:, he's just not worth the trouble. I must admit I haven't tried him in combination with Moat, but with Humility in the same build, again, probably not worth the trouble. I really rather play Pithing Needle.

I've finally gotten to some testing myself. I must say I'm pleased with how it went. It's certainly not perfect yet, but we're probably on to something here.

My first test was against Dreadstill, the deck I played against was an exact copy of Roodmistah's list. This match-up has become so much easier, and post-board, the boils are really awesome.

The other testing was against Aggro Loam. This match-up is still unfavorable, but I must admit I made quite alot of playing errors. Or the opponent just made really good plays:

I'm on the play: Mox Diamond, Mox Diamond, Ancient Tomb (or City of Traitors don't recall well), Chalice@2 (shutting down Burning Wish, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf and ofcourse Life from the Loam). I thought I had him. He ends up with Engineered Explosives@0 blowing up my Moxes and Chalice, and he wastes my double land. I had nothing on the board anymore and he still had 1 or 2 lands here, and what's worse...Life from the Loam. I'll try and fit that one under bad luck. In general I still have problems with Aggro Loam, but the chances have certainly improved. Once you have a Moat down, and he can't get Krosan Grip, all his biggies stay at home.

I must say I also like Pithing Needle in the sideboard. Ofcourse you must use it right and not name Bloodstained Mire or Wasteland with it, but Seismic Assault when playing against Aggro Loam. Duh :wink:.

All in all I feel flip and erb were right about upping the number of Moats and Humilities to 4. I'm leaning of getting an extra Elspeth too, because once you've lost her, it's very hard to kill your opponent.

The maindeck Replenish is just silly. It often just sat there in my hand, while I desperately wanted it to be a Moat or Humility. Guess what's going to happen to the Replenish slot :wink:. In the sideboard it's still okay though, I once had a real cool revival after a Krosan Grip :laugh:.

The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale in the sideboard can be replaced I think. Perhaps for either Ajani Vengeant or Wrath of God probably.

I also stay with the Powder Kegs. They're also pretty awesome against Dreadstill, and they've also shown use against Aggro Loam. Against Dreadstill you set it to 1 and leave it there. Pretty good insurancy. Against Aggro Loam you just let it sit at 2 and if needed you can pop the third in against Terravore or Countryside Crusher.

The number of Armageddons can indeed be dropped to 3-4 instead of the traditional 4-6. 5 or 6 is probably too high, but Armageddon is still a huge bomb against alot of match-ups. Not against Aggro-loam, mind you :wink:.

I did experience some trouble producing the second white mana sometimes. I'm not sure how to juggle around with the manabase though. An obvious adaptation seems to replace the singleton Kor Haven for a basic Plains. However, in testing the singleton Kor Haven has repeatidly saved my behind, so I'm unsure of cutting it. I'm already running only 6 double mana lands, so cutting there seems to be asking for trouble too. I also run only 3 Wasteland and 3 Mishra's Factory, I have no intention on cutting the Factories. Perhaps cutting a Wasteland will provide the answer, but I'm already running less Armageddons. The last option is to just put in the extra Plains as the 61st card...

[klaus]

On Boil:

I'm still hesitant to pick Boil over Defense Grid for the SB. I feel it comes down 2 turns too late in comparison. In builds that still feature Ghostly Prisons, mind you, Boil would be my spell of Choice. But making your opponent's 12 counterspells dead draws on turn 1 and proceed resolving anything feels just smoother than:
...Us dropping Chalice@1 -> Opponent dropping Goyf -> Us playing Boil -> opp. dropping Mongoose -> us getting Moat countered.

In a nutshell: We resolve all our spells = we win against most blue decks, no matter what.
We destroy all (or 90% of) their land = not gg yet.

[Mordel]

Okay, it's 330 am where I am at and just finished an mws mini. Not a big one because eternal players are kind of few and far between on mws. In the end, I'll assume the shuffler was the biggest reason for me losing to a standard format deck with duals, counterspell(the original) and fow in it. I had to mull down to five in all THREE games and it was absolutely brutal. I still won one game at least, but yeah. Very sad. He was playing some sort of janky 5c deck that is all the rage in standard right now.

ANYWAY on a non-/wrists note:
I played against a 4c countertop deck and this matchup was interesting. I presume that he was running white for swords, seals and bigger explosives only...unless his deck was completely garbage.

Anyway, the games went something like this:

1st game was sort of slow. The mws god seemed like it was going to be nice and I was on the play. I got the ability to do a first turn CotV, so I went for it. It got a big fat FoW. M-L folks(with a few big exceptions) seem to like dreadstill more than anything, so that is what I figured I was against. My opponent played conservatively with his lands initially. I wasn't sure what he was playing really because all that I saw in the first few turns of his was a swamp, island, a bob and a delta. Anyway, it turned out he was playing said deck and the game was won on moat's back. Yay. Good times for me. I still didn't get to see what he was playing really because he scooped as soon as I got everything but a humility out...BUT I saw a tropical and a tundra, so...yeah.

2nd game was pretty interesting. He was on the draw, had a sort of do-nothing hand and my hand was about five cards at the start, so I didn't feel like pushing my luck with another mull. I dropped land and said go for a bit and managed to lure out his one and only fow that would see his hand that game with an early crucible...weeee.

Eventually the board looked like: me several land in hand, numerous in play, a moat, o-ring on a cb(was counter bait for the crucible) and crucible out and a mox. He had a top, two bobs and four lands, with four cards in his hand. I had seen what two cards he had drawn and both were lands, so I decided to go all in with a geddon. The geddon worked and blew his shit up. Then I got a trinisphere out and a smoker out while he was recovering still. I had another geddon in hand and was planning on making him die from bobs, but the stack happened first. He ended up scooping to an Elspeth before he got locked though.


Either way, I'll be more glib about my thoughts on the deck when it isn't 4am, but I am pretty luke-warm on the boils at the moment and am going to be looking into increasing Elspeth and moat numbers.

Here is the build that I was rolling with:

Skegstax

// Lands
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [NE] Kor Haven
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [R] Plateau
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
8 [4E] Plains (1)

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
3 [LG] Moat
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [TE] Humility
4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [B] Armageddon
4 [US] Smokestack

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [UD] Replenish
SB: 3 [8E] Boil
SB: 3 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 3 [OD] Sphere of Law
SB: 4 [FNM] Aura of Silence

Right off of the cuff, I'm thinking -3 boil -1 plateau -1 geddon +1 moat +1plains/wasteland +3 defense grid and MAYBE -1 smoker +1 Elspeth

I hate feeling like I have lost the game almost when one Elspeth gets a FoW straight off the top of my opp's deck, but in the same token, I hate feeling like some wild hair up my opponent's ass in the form of a seal, disk, fourth random splash colour etc, can make my invulnerability to creatures collapse like a Tai hooker after an oil tycoon convention. Smoke stack is a great must counter(at least in the minds of some opponents) and a win-con in many matches...it may seem win-more, but there are lots of games that I have lost because one wouldn't stick...in fact that is why I lost to the aforementioned shitty standard deck. The geddons are creat sometimes and subpar others with the new approach, so maybe I will do some CRAZY changes and test more tomorrow...

(I.E -2 geddon +1 Elspeth +1 smoker +2 sb geddon or something)

[Arsenal]

If breaking away from the traditional Magus builds, how vital is Moat? I have all the cards to play this "Dutch" build, except for the rediculously expensive Moats.

[f|i[p]]

@armageddon (ofcourse this only applies to Dutch stax)

First of all cutting armageddons would probably be ther right choice..In my testing, I have cut it down to 3 and never missed them at all...( I might even cut them out completely)

@Loam,

Any version that runs loam is problematic to us, we usually have problems with these variants.

@ Moat and HUmility numbers,

Since these are your replacements for magus and ghostly prisons, We would normally replace them appropriately. 1 for 1.

@ Replenish,

Yep their only good for sideboard against decks that would normally run Grips and disenchants. Because it only really brings back to play enchantment cards, I am not sure if these are even worth your sideboard space.

@ kegs

Their really worth the spot specially if you are expecting teegs, which are absolutely annoying for stax. They too are quite versatile althought they are slow as well.

@ Boil

I have never tested boil, however I have always wanted an added out vs blue. Defense grid is good since it comes a turn earlier, but at times, it already feels like trinisphere does that already. If you are going mono white, significant advantage of boil vs defense grid has never been proven or even argued about.. Even the red splash is not needed at all.

@ Elspeth

Your right about elspeths number skeggi, I have actually upped the elspeth count to 3...as it is usually hard to dig for her as a win condition..

@ Arsenal

Moat is vital to Dutch stax. It has perfect synergy with humility, it prevents non flyers from attacking, protecting you and elspeth enough to buy you time to get what you need via lock or win via elspeth. Moat shuts down a lot of decks by itself. I can't seem to find another card that can replace moats sheer power, of controling creatures(of course this doesn't stop flyers). You cant combine humility with ghostly prison,as they will end up attacking elspeth (so this means changing your win condition too (which cannot be angels or creatures in particular because of humility)). In the dutch stax builds, it seems to focus on elspeth, thus protecting her is quite vital. Moats and humiliy does this job best. Other combinations of humility with ghostly or magus just doesn't seem to work.

@ Dutch stax over all

One of the biggest problems I have encountered with this particular build
as comparison the armageddon stax,is that we don't really have a good way to wipe the board clean of creatures. So creatures tend to just hang out and wait until their master(opponent) finds a way to get rid of either moat or humility. Swarms of 1/1's would kill you instantly. And a single flying creature will get to you fast.

This particular problem tends to make smokestack useless late game too or if not it would make smokestack take forever to get rid of his permanents-->> meaning it would also take you forever to win a match. This makes elspeth seem like your only win condition.

Bumping up elspeths count, might help this issue a bit.( gives you a faster way to get your win condition out)

Because of the problem we might actually need to dedicate some space for wrath of god, or some other board sweeper in the sideboard against swarm decks like goblins and the likes.

Comparing to armageddon stax, which would wipe the board clean of creatures with a resolved magus and armageddon. Magus alone also tends to keep people from playing more creatures, to be able to free up their mana making them play fewer permanents, which actually is good for smokestack and the prison theme

There may be a lot of comparisons that we can make and learn if you actually played stax for quite some time, as you will actually see the strength and weaknesses of both builds. For now, armageddon stax has better overall synergy as a prison deck and for smokestack itself. Dutch stax however has better raw power defensively .

This however only goes by testing against goblins and angel stompy variants. I am unsure if it goes the same way for other match ups.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Why wouldn't you include some number of WoG's as well, since Magus and Prisons are leaving, kick out the Geddons as well, and replace them with WoG's, 1 for 2, and then you could have two open slots, even. Or, 2x Geddon 2x Wrath wouldn't be entirely horrible, just completely random...

Personally, I don't see why you think you need Humility.

Also, the WW in a lot of cards could be a bad idea...Just saying.

WW in cc:

Elspeth
Moat
Humility
Wrath of God (if you listen to me, anyway...)

Both of the cards you are dropping for Moat and Humility contain only a single W. The cards you are adding cost an additional color to their cost.

With there only being a few flyers played in the metagame, I don't understand why you don't just add Moat and drop Magii out of the game, leaving Prisons and Armageddons. Prisons do something for the Ichorid matchup as well as the Zoo matchup. Humility doesn't do a whole lot for you when you are staring down 14 goblins or on their turn one or 9x 3/3 hasted goblins on their turn two and you only have a humility. Prison would save your ass in both of these scenarios, and they are common scenarios for both TES and Ichorid.

I think Elspeth is good. Great even, for this list. Humility is underwhelming when a moat is out, and I think an O-Ring solves your problem for the creatures that fly over it (those creatures being what, Tombstalker, Sea Drake and Exalted Angel? I think you can handle them. Reprisal even works) Heck, You can out-race those with a elspeth'ed Factory. I'd even be tempted to run 3x Elspeth.

Pce,

--DC

[f|i[p]]

With there only being a few flyers played in the metagame, I don't understand why you don't just add Moat and drop Magii out of the game, leaving Prisons and Armageddons. Prisons do something for the Ichorid matchup as well as the Zoo matchup. Humility doesn't do a whole lot for you when you are staring down 14 goblins or on their turn one or 9x 3/3 hasted goblins on their turn two and you only have a humility. Prison would save your ass in both of these scenarios, and they are common scenarios for both TES and Ichorid.



Having a few flyers in the metagame is actually what makes moat better than magus, However, I have already answered this a few times before, ghostly prison alone doesn't protect elspeth as they can attack him without paying 2. Humility doesn't protect her as well but it makes those 1/1's easier to block and to take.

About TES and ichorid, it is already a good match up for us. This lowers a bit when replacing ghostly prisons but generally its still good with or without prisons, as it is not really our key card agaist those combo decks. Oh and I don't get the part where 9x 3/3 hasted goblins attack you when humility is out...haste? 3/3? humility...(this doesn't matter though 9 1/1's gobs will hurt)




I think Elspeth is good. Great even, for this list. Humility is underwhelming when a moat is out, and I think an O-Ring solves your problem for the creatures that fly over it (those creatures being what, Tombstalker, Sea Drake and Exalted Angel? I think you can handle them. Reprisal even works) Heck, You can out-race those with a elspeth'ed Factory. I'd even be tempted to run 3x Elspeth.



How can it be underwhelming?It specifically prevents any creature from attacking at all. Creatures with no ability, no flying... can't attack. Because of moat and humility combo, which is actually all the creatures in play.

About tombstalker, sea drake and exalted. In paper or in theory it seems easy to handle. In reality however their not. Single creatures Get around ghostly prison. When Equipped they are going to really hurt. Once in a while we would get an O ring to handle them, but this is only if you are planning to run 3 or 4. Stompy variants has a lot of creatures that can chew on your life fast by itself(a lone creature). And no, You cannot out race stompy variants. They were specifically designed for speed. While Stax was designed to be prison.

[Mordel]

Considering one of the biggest factors in choosing to test this variation for me was to improve upon getting destroyed by one big dude or one dude holding some equipment, I will never remove all of the armageddons. The decks that I am wanting to have better matchups against, armageddons are awesome on their own. Having wrath against one dreadnaught/goy/angel/something with equipment on it is shit. If I was going to add wrath, I'd remove a copy of the four rings or something or run them in the sideboard. One of the huge factors in my destroying the decks that I sought/seek to destroy with testing this build is having a fucktonne of "must counters" I'd much rather draw a geddon against a landstill deck or even thresh, considering their small number of lands.

Either way, I am not feeling too inclined to bother with wrath when I just added another moat and Elspeth. Wrath might get into the sideboard eventually, but in almost every single first game of a match that I have played, I have always been happy to see my geddons. Another factor is that most decks don't have a way to remove a moat or humility in the first game anyway.

[Skeggi]

;296445']
@ Replenish,

Yep their only good for sideboard against decks that would normally run Grips and disenchants. Because it only really brings back to play enchantment cards, I am not sure if these are even worth your sideboard space.

I'm starting to doubt this too.

Wrath of God is going to be in my sideboard as a 2-of at least. Dutch Stax was designed to handle decks with a single beater. When you face swarms, Armageddon Stax used to handle them with Magus + Armageddon or Prison + Armageddon. Magus used to be the key factor in the evolution from Angel Stax to Armageddon Stax to cut Wrath of God. While we're not as vulnerable as Angel Stax, my guess is that Wrath of God is a good sideboard card indeed.

Ofcourse, whether you favour the original Armageddon Stax or Dutch Stax is meta dependant. If your meta has alot of Aggro Loam, Dreadstill or Team America I would go for Dutch Stax. If there is more Zoo, Goblins or Ichorid, Armageddon Stax is probably better; however, keep in mind Dutch Stax handles Zoo, Goblins or Ichorid better than Armageddon Stax handles Aggro Loam, Dreadstill or Team America. So if there is a tie in the meta, I'd still lean towards Dutch Stax.

About dropping Armageddons: I really think the minimum is 3. The card is still a real hard bomb. The prison of Stax, the Chalices and Trinispheres still depend on an Armageddon. Without it, they can still cast 3cc+ spells. Dropping Armageddon for Wrath of God maindeck would be a big mistake (well in my meta at least, if all you face are Zoo and Goblins, you should probably just stick to Armageddon Stax rather than Dutch Stax). Also: most decks are more land-dependant than creature-dependant. There are only a few which aren't: TES, Belcher and Ichorid. But combo has problems with Chalice@0 or Trinisphere already.

[Mordel]

Yup yup on the geddons: they give you a way to deal with all of the creatures on the board with a ramped-up smoker, which this deck can do handily thanks to Speth and Flagstones as well as other more obvious uses.

I have been sort of "meh" on the replenishes, but haven't had a chance to use them yet. Should I save myself the trouble and just replace them with wraths while I am ahead? If only there was an artifact that could just sort of shuffle artifacts or enchants into my library...lol.

[Skeggi]

I have been sort of "meh" on the replenishes, but haven't had a chance to use them yet. Should I save myself the trouble and just replace them with wraths while I am ahead? If only there was an artifact that could just sort of shuffle artifacts or enchants into my library...lol.
Yeah, I'm going to replace them for WoG for sure. Instead of reviving potential creature-cripplers, you just kill the creatures. It broadens the spectrum of potential a bit.

There is such an artifact: Feldon's Cane, Reito Latern, Soldevi Digger, Thran Foundry. But I wouldn't go for any of them :wink:.

[Mordel]

Yeah, I thought about digger, but needs a shuffle effect to accompany it and the others are all one shots.

Maybe I am just a sadist/not playing the deck optimally, but in the dreadstill and numerous other pseudo-control/aggro matches smokers are pretty much my chief tool for victory besides 'geddon.

I hate the idea of splashing blue and won't, but boy do I wish academy ruins has a white mana in its cost instead of a blue =/

[f|i[p]]

@ armageddon

As I said, I was only getting to test them against angel stompy variants and goblins. Which wouldn't really care as much for the land unless you had a quick lock to slow them down. Having them at 3 is still the safest choice.

@ Mordel

Why would you want a shuffle effect for artifacts and enchantments?

[Mordel]

I feel find of odd explaining this, but...

If I am putting things on the bottom of my library with something like a soldevi digger, I will want a way to shuffle them into my deck other than sacrificing flagstones.

Digger is sub par even if there were several incidental shuffle effects beyond flagstones, but it would be pretty pointless to even bother with it if there was only three ways(not counting enablers for sacrfice etc) to get those cards somewhere other than the bottom...no?

[Dino]

Mistveil Plains was thought to be a card that could be played, but through testing the come into play tapped and the lack of shuffle effects made people not play it anymore

[Mordel]

Not being able to be used unless you are already on the way to winning is a strike against it too.

Edit: Testing on mws is really starting to get annoying because I am only finishing one out of three matches. The most irritating thing is that I don't get to see how games turn out against stuff like landstill when I get good, but not auto-win hands like the one I just got earlier:

Crucible, Plains, City of Traitors, Mox Diamond, Armageddon, Trinisphere, Elspeth Hot Knight Bitch and I was on the play!!!11

I rarely get to enjoy these hands or see if they are actually auto-wins still when my deck lets me down. This is really starting to piss me off.
This is my new tweaked list...

// Lands
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [NE] Kor Haven
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
9 [4E] Plains (1)

// Creatures
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
4 [LG] Moat
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [TE] Humility
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [B] Armageddon
4 [US] Smokestack

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 3 [OD] Sphere of Law
SB: 3 [FNM] Aura of Silence
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 2 [5E] Wrath of God

I find myself not sideboarding very often, so maybe the wraths and o-ring will be changing that. I am strongly considering adding three more focused affinity hate cards...maybe in something that splash damages other shit too, like suppression field or something.

[_erbs_]

Some suggestions that might work..
1. Caltrops would be nice against swarm and not totally bad with no Humility against 2/1 creatures. Has a lower casting cost over wrath of god but wrath of god is still good since caltrops requires a combo to work.

2. 4 Humility and 4 Moat i think is a must

3. Smokestack maybe 3 ? since its clock became abit slower without Magus + Geddon to wipe creatures on the board. Opponent could just cast creatures after creatures so that they wouldn't suffer the smokestack until they get or find a way to remove the humility / moat.

4. Faerie decks would be a problem with no humility.

5. For me sphere of resistance would work better over sphere of law.

[Illissius]

I've tried Gargoyle before in the old build, and he went straight out. Just like Windborn Muse, he's simply too vulnerable.

Could you elaborate? What was it vulnerable to? Were you playing it maindeck or in the sideboard? Maybe they were keeping StP and the like in after boarding because you had other important creatures in the first game (Magus, Muse, Angel, whatever)? That wouldn't be an issue with the Elspeth builds.


Also, costing :3::w::w:, he's just not worth the trouble. I must admit I haven't tried him in combination with Moat, but with Humility in the same build, again, probably not worth the trouble. I really rather play Pithing Needle.

True, it conflicts with Humility; Needle also conflicts with Chalice at one. This doesn't actually say very much before you do an analysis of which decks you want Humility and Gargoyle against, or both Chalice at one and Needle, and where you want both, whether the benefits outweigh the risks, and so on. Against most Pernicious Deed decks I think Gargoyle would actually be harder to get rid of than Needle. If you manage to get a Gargoyle down naming Deed, if they either took out Swords or you have a Chalice at one, he could be practically unkillable -- Grip doesn't hit him, and they're not going to have five colors for Explosives. It also takes a lot of mana to Deed him if you name something else. Whereas Needle can be Gripped, and is exceedingly easy to Deed or EE away when you have it naming the other one. But obviously Needle is a lot easier to slip in under countermagic. So both of them have their advantages and drawbacks, but I don't think Gargoyle should be dismissed so lightly. (And obviously there's the factor that Gargoyle is also Meddling Mage. Needle can't do jack against instants and sorceries.)

[f|i[p]]

@ voidstone gargoyle

Although he may seem useful, I guess one problem with this is that you will have to assume that your opponent will board out his creature control(seeing that you dont have a single one). He does however hurt decks in some way, you will also have to consider which match up he is good against... I think he is pretty good in pernicious based decks since you usually name deed. Creature control will MOST LIKELY be out...So assuming he will usually be boarded in against control, and he is added help against combo...Does he really help against the bad match ups... Landstill? loam based decks (there will be so many cards to name), Stompy variants?

I have never tested him but I don't like the fact that he is 3/3 and he's rather slow. Aside from him being totally useless with humility in play. I really don't think he is still sideboard material.

[Patrick]

I play the traditional Geddon Stax build, with Ghostly Prison and Magus of the Tabernacle. I've also ran 1 moat in my build for a long time. I have a lot of trouble beating Threshold decks, even though I hear Stax is supposed to win that matchup. Anybody have any tips?

[Luca_Girolami]

How about Relic of Progenitus and Tormod's Crypt. I actually play 3 of the first and 2 of the second in side against Threshold, Ichorid and Life. It works.

I don't play any Humility and I've never seen any GeddonStax running it. I've never tested it. I'll do. Thanks for the tip! :)

[klaus]

I play the traditional Geddon Stax build, with Ghostly Prison and Magus of the Tabernacle. I've also ran 1 moat in my build for a long time. I have a lot of trouble beating Threshold decks, even though I hear Stax is supposed to win that matchup. Anybody have any tips?

Play 3-4 Defense Grid in the SB, 3 Oblivion Ring in the MD and you should be all set.

[f|i[p]]

I play the traditional Geddon Stax build, with Ghostly Prison and Magus of the Tabernacle. I've also ran 1 moat in my build for a long time. I have a lot of trouble beating Threshold decks, even though I hear Stax is supposed to win that matchup. Anybody have any tips?

Although this is a good match up, its not an easy one. For me I tend to focus more on the lock against threshold, rather than beating down with angels, I usually side out ghostly prison and angels.Bring in added lock pieces, from sphere of resistance, defense grid,suppression fields(if you have them on your sideboard,O. rings or P. needles(on fetchlands even). I leave magus for blocking purposes. THreshold runs a few permanents, a single chalice at 1 would really hurt their deck. Trinisphere on the table gives them a migrane. Smokestack would hurt. Over all we really do have a good match up. I think you just have to learn on how to bait or mulligan for the right hand. This however is my opinion

[Luca_Girolami]

This is my updated list. I'd like to have some comments, 'cause I'm going to play it in some of new year's local events.

Creatures (6)
3 Exalted Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

Spells (30)
4 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

Lands (25)
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Mishra's Factory
7 Plains
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
2 Aura of Silence
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Relic of Progenitus
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 True Believer

[klaus]

@Luca.
Since Ghostly Prisons actually mostly get insane in multiples; I'd never leave home without a playset in the MD.
Your list is really tight so it's hard to find room for it.
I'm pretty sure cutting the 4th Trinisphere is generally agreed upon, since it's the only card that you'll only need once (if not countered).
Also, I'd cut a Plains and a Factory (2-3 should really be enough) for the 4th Tomb (this is MANDATORY) and possibly the 4th City (which is optional).
Don't forget you're running 3 (!) Angels to makeup for the life loss.
As for the SB:
True Believer I assume comes in exclusively against combo (correct me if I'm wrong) - the combo MU already should be in your favor, though (especially with 4 SPheres!!).
I'd actually consider cutting the Spheres for Ethersworn Canonists which allows you to replace the Believers with Defense Grids.
This way you specialize your SB against certain archetypes instead of boasting 8 semi-solutions to some decks.
---

That being said, I got my cute ass kicked by 66% of the decks that I faced during a recent tournament. This was my list:

2 Elspeth
2 Ajani V.
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Moat
1 Wrath of God
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere
3 Armageddon
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
(--35--)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
5 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Plateau
1 Mishra's Factory

SB:
3 Exalted Angel
4 Defense Grid
4 Pithing Needle
1 Wrath of God
3 Ethersworn Canonist

My MUs were:
Tier2 Burn----win: via Ajani Geddon and Smokestack:wink:
BW-Aggro(?)-win
Merfolk-------lose: G1: Vial, G2: Jitte
RW-Sligh-----lose: due to bad luck and boarding mistakes. G3 he topdecks a Mogg, me being at 1 life, with Angel ftw waiting on the board.
Dredge-------lose to Woodfall primus+flashback
BW-aggro----lose to severael vindicates

And it was all my bad. I didn't really test the list thoroughly beforehand.
Had I done that I would have gathered the following insights:
- while E. Bridge is super it doesn't synergyze with Geddon
- it also doesn't synergize well with tons of CMC4 spells
- it does syngerize with Chrome Mox
- so I'm considering a 3-Mox-D./2-C.-Mox split: Hellbent FTW!
- no kidding I'm even pondering on 2 L. Helix MD!
- Oblivioin Ring will be a 4of, replacing the 4th Wrath
- While the idea of boarding in Angels against Aggro+Burn seems tempting, she was ALWAYS 1 turn late and will thus be replaced by 3 Ajani G.s
- Moat needs to be a 3of but who can afford that?!

Heh. I'm aware that the optimized list cannot be considered "Geddon" Stax any longer and thus doesn't really belong in this threat. That's why it's in type size "1" :tongue:

RW Stax 2.0__(EDITED)
2 Elspeth
2 Ajani V.
4 Chalice
4 Bridge
4 Trini
4 Ring
3 Moat
3 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
--34--
4 Tomb
3 City
3 Flagstones
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
4 Plains
4 Plateau
3 Mishra's Factory
--26--
SB:
3 Ajani Goldmane
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Defense Grid
4 Pithing Needle
2 "meta slots"


I'm pretty eager to test that shit and let you know how it went.
-
Klaus.

PS: Ensnaring Bridge>Humility ;)

[Patrick]

;297762']Although this is a good match up, its not an easy one. For me I tend to focus more on the lock against threshold, rather than beating down with angels, I usually side out ghostly prison and angels.Bring in added lock pieces, from sphere of resistance, defense grid,suppression fields(if you have them on your sideboard,O. rings or P. needles(on fetchlands even). I leave magus for blocking purposes. THreshold runs a few permanents, a single chalice at 1 would really hurt their deck. Trinisphere on the table gives them a migrane. Smokestack would hurt. Over all we really do have a good match up. I think you just have to learn on how to bait or mulligan for the right hand. This however is my opinion

Thanks for the advice! Lately I've been scooping to a red splash tempo build.

[Arsenal]

@ Luca

Judging from your maindeck and sideboard, I suspect you have a meta with lots and lots of Storm combo. Between CotV, 3Sphere maindeck, and 4 Sphere of Resistance in the SB, you should have a pretty good chance at locking them out long enough to establish a hardlock, then win from there. If you really, really want more tools versus Storm combo, I suppose Gilded Light would be slightly better than True Believer. Gilded Light can't be bounced eot, it can't be killed, and I doubt that the Storm player would Duress/Thoughtseize a Stax player before going off, so you may be able to surprise them when they cast their lethal ToA. Not a great SB option, but better than True Believer imo.

Also, I echo most of klaus' sentiments; Ghostly Prison should be run at 4 (even in a heavy Storm meta), you should cut a Plains for the 4th Ancient Tomb, and Defense Grid should be somewhere in there (although, if control/Thresh isn't that big in your area, then maybe not, but 4x Defense Grid is sort of a Stax SB staple). Consider Pithing Needle (or Suppression Field if you can't find/afford Needle) versus non-Storm combo, and to combat control (Deed, Shackles, etc).

[Luca_Girolami]

Thanks a lot, Klaus! Thanks Arsenal
I really agree with your ideas. After a little, I came up with this:

Creatures (6)
3 Exalted Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

Spells (29)
4 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere

Lands (25)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Mishra's Factory
6 Plains
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
3 Defense Grid
4 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt

I think I'm set! Any other comments?

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

Sideboard (15)
3 Defense Grid
4 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt

I think I'm set! Any other comments?

Defense Grid is a good card, but while reading up on the "Threshold" thread, the "Team America" thread, the "Landstill" thread, and the "It's the Fear" thread, one thing that these four decks have in common is they have a huge problem with the "Blood Moon" effect. I have been playtesting Stax for over two years, and one of the best additions to the SB I have found is Blood Moon. If you can drop a Blood Moon at any point in the game against and Blue Deck, unless it is Mono Blue, they are forced to counter it. In the past, I have had problems with Threshold, Landstill, ITF, Team America, and Dreadstill. With Blood Moon in my Sideboard, I actually beat them now.

Ethersworn Canonist is good, but I don't understand if it is worthy enough to have a spot in the sideboard. It costs 2, which isn't a big deal, but With stax, you should always be able to cast a 3cc, like Rule of Law. Canonist is also a 2/2, which is easiily killed. What is this helping against?

Needle and Relic are 1cc. Doesn't this go against the biggest goal of the match (Landing CotV @ 1)?

[klaus]

I think I'm set! Any other comments?

Flagstones should always be a 4of in my humble opinion. It synergizes too well with Armageddon and Smokestack to cut them down to 3. I'd actually cut 1 Factory for the 4th Flagstones.

Canonist is really only worth the slots if you expect at least 10% combo and even then 3 should be enough, since you're combo MU is positive G1 and slightly positive G2/3.

3 Crypts should be better than your split since they don't intefere with Chalice.

With those 2 slots saved, I'd consider adding the 4th Magus against swarmaggro.dec and the 4th Trinisphere against combo, Threshhold and the likes.

So you'd end up with something along the lines of:

3 Defense Grid
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Pithing Needle---------could be 4 Suppression Fields, too (-1 Trini then)
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Trinisphere
1 Magus of the Tabernacle

Best,
Klaus

[Mordel]

I am getting the impression in some cases from people that is as if the hinderance of one spell per turn did not exist before canonist.

Why the fuck are people running it instead of rule of law? I don't get it...are you folks scared of daze or something?

Rule of law is more dificult to kill, comes down just as fast in 90% of games and is largely supplimental to 3spere anyway.

I don't want to beat a dead horse or anything, but I think white stax needs to see some actual innovation to be a deck to beat again. Folks should know immediately that their list that looks almost the exact same as almost any list that has been posted on this thread, it should be fine.

I am not meaning to come across as an asshole or someone that knows everything there is to know about the archetype, but the fact that it is performing solidly, but is not quite getting there. Deckcheck.net provides a see of numbers between three and sixteen as far as the deck placing is concerned in bigger touranments and I think this is largely due to a shift in the format that this deck has not seemed to move along with.

Sorry if I am way off here, but I keep seeing the same deck almost(minus some sideaboard slots and a few more of something and a bit less of something) get posted on this thread over and over and over. ack.

[jazzykat]

IMO Sphere of Resistance is more relevant as a lock piece now than ever due to the lighter and more highly tuned manabases. If we are going to work the Armageddon angle, I think maximum disruption to a manabase even to the inclusion of suppression field should be considered.

[_erbs_]

Hello all,
After entering a local tournament in our place with 20+ players sad to say but i end up with a 2-3 win-loss record, playing geddonstax

Lands
3 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
2 crystal vein
3 wasteland
3 flagstone of trokair
3 mishara's factory
8 plains
4 mox diamond
1 tabernacle of pendralveil
29

Spells
4 armageddon
4 trinisphere
4 chalice of the void
3 crusible of worlds
3 smokestack
4 ghostly prison
3 oblivion ring
25

Beats
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Exalted Angel
1 Elspeth
6

SB
3 tormods crypt
3 pithing needle
3 aura of silence
3 sphere of resistance
3 defense grid

Game 1 0-0
vs Meathooks~fish
I was overwhelmed with slivers and was able to counter key cards. I won 1 game through droping sphere of resistance on my 1st turn due to his low mana curve

Game 2 0-1
vs Ichorid
I swepth him forgot the details but expect that i mulled in our games to get a trinisphere, ghostly prison, sphere or resistance

Game 3 1-1
vs Anksligh
Thanks for exalted angel, sphere of resistance & crystal vein. I just barely able to win games without them. Droping a land and having painlands was very very painful.

Game 4 2-1
vs Meathooks
I had no answer for crystaline & harmonic sliver.

Game 5 2-2
vs Redburn
Sphere of Resistance was a so so card here. But again thanks to exalted angel for squeezing a win even if it was just 1 game. He has mb ingot chewer & Smash to Smithereens. His deck was attuned in combating decks packing artifacts in there deck.

ended with a 2-3 record

A few notes:
1. exalted angel / creature with life link is great for recovering life lost especially against burn decks
2. nohmad collesium, zuran orb, wrath of god & ivory mask could be considered in sb list.

The top 8 where:
1. Affinity
2. Threshold
3. 36lands
4. Painter's Landstill
5. 43 lands
6. Iggy pop
7. Counterslivers
8. Anksligh

[Shawon]

In general, isn't Oblivion Ring kinda unnecessary as a 3-of or 4-of? You really need the redundancy in lock pieces to really make Stax consistent. Many of the time, when you're playing Stax, a lock piece is more often than not better than Oblivion Ring (especially the 4th Crucible, WAY WAY better, it's an automatic 4-of). Of course, Oblivion Ring is still useful on its own, so 1-2 should be fine.

[Mordel]

Oblivion ring's importance has been mentioned a lot throughout the thread: It protects traditional builds against some of the worst cards that it can see because sometimes, a lock doesn't work fast enough.

Two of a card that protects you against your weakest/hardest matches and in a deck that has absolutely no draw or manipulation beyond four cards that fetch a plains is...uhm...retarded in my opinion. Running three crucibles is also crazy to me because that is one of the cards that I will often pitch the rest of my hand as counterfodder to get on the table. Crucible helps support smokers at one and with a flagstones, helps you support a two point smoker which is pretty much gg after two turns in lots of games. Crucible is also awesome with mishra's, wastelands, geddon and singleton lands, like kor haven. I never thought that a crucible play set would ever really come into question...especially with decks like TA on the rise.

[f|i[p]]

@klaus RW list

I like the innovation, but chrome mox? We already have problems drawing cards and now your going to pitch one spell? How are you going to get colored spells in there, when we mostly have artifacts...I can count around 13 colored spells in your list ... I think chrome mox would be a waste of space.. Lightning helix??

@LUCA

Your list seems ok, the cannonists are good for baiting counters, with smokestack or an important artifact, then dropping geddon after. But I would always rather have sphere of resistance on the side, Its much more effective and more versatile just as jazzykat mentioned. But if you really want an out against storm combo, Rule of law would be my card of choice, it will buy you enough time to drop your chalice or trinisphere if you don't already have one in play. But as for me, I generally put 2-3 sphere of resistances just to help against storm and thats it.

As for flagstones, I have actually cut mine to 3 and have never regretted that decision, although it helps with armageddon and smokestack a lot. I hate having 2 flagstones in my hand or at a time. This will come down to your own personal opinion.

@OneBigSquirrelGod

I actually agree about the blood moon, but this is only if you are willing to splash red to have better sideboard options...

About relic and needle, One thing you always have to think of is that, we don't run 30 chalice's. We won't always have it in our opening hand. P. needles and relics are spells we can put down 1st turn. Decks also tend to destroy or counter chalice @ 1. You also have to remember that we also put down chalice @ 2. And yet we use sphere of resistance and defense grids as a good sideboard option.

@ Mordel

Cannonist is actually useful, don't dismiss it right away, it just so happens that there are better options available as you said. No reason to react in such a bad manner.

@erbs

The top 8 is actually filled with decks that we really don't want to see, like land.deck and landstill. I am however assuming that affinity is tougher than goblins as a match up for us as they are faster and have flyers. I am however curious about the sliver match up. Was it really that bad?

[_erbs_]

@f|i[p]
I guess it was just a case of bad luck i guess.. it seems that i can't seem to setup before the horde of slivers are out on the board. After loosing to the 2 countersliver decks i myself was shock. But i guess they know what to counter. But it wasn't a total thrashing i won 1 game for each in all of my sliver match up but harmonic & crystaline sliver will give this deck a hard time. In my sliver match ups i used the following card changes:

- 1 geddon
- 1 smokestack
- 1 tabernacle
- 1 mox diamond
- 1 ghostly prison
- 1 oblivion ring
+ 3 defense grid
+ 3 sphere of resistance


During those times i wishing i had wrath of god in my sb.

[Arsenal]

@ OneBigSquirrelGod

I used to run Suppression Field in place of Pithing Needle, until I (as did many others) realized that while Suppression Field slows the opponent down (and you too), it doesn't really stop their Deed from wrecking your board, or Shackles from creating a stalemate, etc. Needle STOPS retarded stuff, period. If the opponent removes it, they remove it, but you have to assume that risk and bank on the fact that they won't have artifact removal for every single one of your artifacts.

Yes, CotV @ 1 is important, and given the choice, I'd put down a CotV @ 1 before I put down a Needle (rare occasions notwithstanding), but you probably won't have CotV, Needle, 2mana land in your opening 7 every single time.

Testing has shown Needle to be superior to Suppression Field when I want to stop really retarded activated abilities, even with the slight dissynergy between Needle and CotV.

[Mordel]

For those that are interested, this is my current stax list, which has been running into an issue of people not sticking out the entire match on mws during testing.

//Skeg$tax/Richpeoplestax

// Lands
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [NE] Kor Haven
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
8 [4E] Plains (1)

// Creatures
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
4 [LG] Moat
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [TE] Humility
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [B] Armageddon
4 [US] Smokestack

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 3 [OD] Sphere of Law
SB: 3 [FNM] Aura of Silence
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 2 [5E] Wrath of God

I have brought the aura's in ONCE against affinity and won off one out on the first turn. It was retarded and will likely never happen again.

Overall though, I am quite a bit happier with this deck than the older version as I have mentioned before, but with the four moats, it is totally a rich people deck...I luckily own two or three(if I find the mia one), so getting one more isn't a big deal for me.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

@ OneBigSquirrelGod

I used to run Suppression Field in place of Pithing Needle, until I (as did many others) realized that while Suppression Field slows the opponent down (and you too), it doesn't really stop their Deed from wrecking your board, or Shackles from creating a stalemate, etc. Needle STOPS retarded stuff, period. If the opponent removes it, they remove it, but you have to assume that risk and bank on the fact that they won't have artifact removal for every single one of your artifacts.

Yes, CotV @ 1 is important, and given the choice, I'd put down a CotV @ 1 before I put down a Needle (rare occasions notwithstanding), but you probably won't have CotV, Needle, 2mana land in your opening 7 every single time.

Testing has shown Needle to be superior to Suppression Field when I want to stop really retarded activated abilities, even with the slight dissynergy between Needle and CotV.

@Arsenal

Thanks for the input. Those are some pretty big points, I was too oblivious too actually realize (not being sarcastic, I am actually going to try Needle in the SB). I maindeck 2 Suppression Fields, for the soul purpose that, like Trinisphere and Chalice, Win me games when I drop it turn 1 or 2. It gives me a big advantage game 1 against landstill, and also against those real fast Boros Decks. Even against 42 Lands, it gives me a huge advantage (even though stax already has the advantage). I have changed the deck several times..... actually, more than several times, with Blue, Red, Black, I find the Blood Moon a great Card. The Matchup's that I've had problems with is Threshold, Mono white Weenie, Landstill, and Aggro Loam. The Blood Moons help against Threshold and Landstill, and the other decks I find Runed Halo Works out great:). What is your opinion on Runed Halo? This Card has won me Many, many games alone. I found a turn 2 Tarmogoyf with countermagic used to kill me until Halo. My list as of now is:

4x Mox Diamond (Jap)
4x Trinisphere (Foil)
4x Chalice of the Void (Foil)
3x Crucible of Worlds (Foil)
2x Smokestacks (Jap)
4x Magus of the Tabernacle (Foil)
3x Armageddon (DCI Foil)
2x Ravages of War (T. Chi, Jap)
3x Ghostly Prison (Foil)
3x Exalted Angel (Foil)
2x Oblivion Ring (Foil)
2x Suppression Field (Foil)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Ajani Vengeant (Foil)

5x Plains (Foil)
4x City of Traitors (Jap)
4x Flagstones of Trokair (Foil)
3x Ancient Tomb (Jap)
3x Wasteland (Foil)
2x Plateau (Unlim)
1x God's Eye, Gate to Reikai (Foil) <---:eyebrow:
1x Horizon Canopy

Sideboard:
4x Blood Moon (DK)
4x Runed Halo (Foil)
3x Tormod's Crypt (DK
2x Oblivion Ring (Foil)
2x Suppression Field (Foil)

For the tournament I'm participating in tomorrow, I will try -2 Suppression Field main for 1x Crucible and 1x Ghostly Prison. I just now started looking at this forum, so from some Idea's I've Gathered, I'm going to -2 Suppression, -2 Oblivion Ring, -2 Blood Moon, and adding 3 Pithing Needles and 3 Defense Grids. I also Got my 2nd Elspeth, so I'm debating whether to take out Ajani, or not. Ajani has been O. K, But not as outstanding as Elspeth. Does anybody else run Ajani?

@Arsenal again

What do you think about Relic? Are you running it? Is it worth Playing?

[Mordel]

What do you think about Relic? Are you running it? Is it worth Playing?

Maybe I missed something, but If my train of thought is right, you can answer your own question by reviewing his reply that concerned needle...

I haven't seen much dredge, but most of the time, I would rather chalice for one and shut off therapy etc than set a chalice for zero, which hits a card that they may not necessarily see and if they do, it is because they are dredging/drawing/etc off of cards that a chalice for one would have shut off.

[Skeggi]

Overall though, I am quite a bit happier with this deck than the older version as I have mentioned before, but with the four moats, it is totally a rich people deck...I luckily own two or three(if I find the mia one), so getting one more isn't a big deal for me.

I've tested a bit and I think it's slightly better than the original list in my meta. I still encounter lots of troubles with it, though. But the fact that it's expensive as hell makes me really want to play it! I've already begun pimping :wink:. $keg$tax is a nice name indeed :laugh: (I believe one of the old Vintage Stax lists was called The $4000 Sollution, it came right after Duct Tape).


@f|i[p]
- 1 geddon
- 1 smokestack
- 1 tabernacle
- 1 mox diamond
- 1 ghostly prison
- 1 oblivion ring
+ 3 defense grid
+ 3 sphere of resistance


I would have done this differently. If you side in Defense Grids and Sphere of Resistance, you might as well side out Trinisphere. Their best spells are cc2, so Chalice@2 is best thing to play here anyway; Trinisphere only adds 1 to these spells, so Sphere of Resistance is strictly better. So:
-4 Trinisphere
-2 Exalted Angel
-1 Elspeth
+3 Defense Grid
+3 Sphere of Resistance
+1 Aura of Silence (against Aether Vial)

This way you also get to keep your essential Armageddon (I only side this out against Combo), your Ghostly Prison, your Tabernacle and your Smokestacks. A better gameplan I think, when it comes to handling a horde of slivers :smile:. Keep your Oblivion Rings for the Aether Vials.

[Mordel]

So, I just ran into a fairly uncharted and untested match that I have never run into with this deck a few minutes ago: Faerie stompy.

My opponent was a pretty nice guy, so we gave the match a second go and I also asked him at a certain point what this matchup is like and he said it sort of goes either way.

Based off of the games we played, I need to get fucking lucky to win and moat is pretty much useless in this match. The early chalices are hit and miss and largely need to hit either zero or one if I don't want to see the one main deck pithing needle and the threespheres are basically defense grids that cost one more as far as my experience went.

Based off of the sideboard I sort of flailed in the first game and didn't realize how shitty 3spheres were and just sided in an extra o-ring and brought in wraths for moats.

This was obviously very bad sideboarding when you look at the other tools available.

In the second match, I brought in o-ring, grids, wrath, a geddon and kegs/aura(I don't remember which of the two exactly). I took out all the 3spheres, two moats and the chalices because they just weren't consistent enough for me. I thought about bringing in kegs, but they struck me as too slow.

In this match I drew quite poorly in the first game and in the second got a chalice that I had failed to side out with a good hand that consisted of a wrath, defense grid and two humilities, plus a tomb when I already had a mox and flagstone down. I put the chalice down for zero and pulled a random win because he had moxes in his hand as his primary mana sources. So, that game didn't count imo. In the third game I drew a similarly awesome hand, but made a play error that was brought on by a combination being tired and being entirely to accustomed to having a crucible down, that resulted in me not being able to play wrath after eating his [possibly] only fow with a humility at six life or something.

Either way, the match seems super-draw dependent on both ends and extremely close no matter how the game ends up.

My thinking in regards to keeping smokers in was that if I was going to win this match in a timely fashion, chances are I would be needing a smoker to make him sac off his needles because I would be probably wanting to use the keg(s) I draw on his creatures. I try to keep my matches under forty-five to simulate tournament play, in case someone is wondering "why the rush?".

In any event, this match seems worse to me before the second game than it is with the more affordable version of the deck.

On a related not, DS is a strangely easy game as far as I have experienced because moat shuts everything but dragon down for swinging and the hands that they generally consider gravy in the first game(first turn cotv, second turn 3sphere etc) suck terribly against White Stax in general and while moon effects are annoying, they have never resulted in my losing the game yet due to moxes and eight plains.

[Arsenal]

What do you think about Relic? Are you running it? Is it worth Playing?

I think Relic is a good card overall, but I'm not running it in my sideboard. I don't see any Ichorid in my area, so graveyard based strategies aren't really something I typically take into consideration. I suppose if you face opposing Crucible control decks (Landstill, Stax), then you would want something to tip the scale in your favor, but I'd use other cards (Needle for Landstill, Seal of Cleansing/Aura of Silence for Stax) to help me out. If you really want some sort of graveyard hate, I'd run Tormod's Crypt.

Although I made the argument for running Needle + CotV, I cannot make the same argument for running Relic + CotV when there is a comparable replacement for Relic in Crypt that skirts the CotV issue altogether. There is no replacement or comparable card for Needle (Suppression Field is the closest I suppose, but not really).

RE: your decklist, I think Crucible is an automatic 4-of, ALWAYS. Smokestack as a 2-of, in a deck with no draw/dig/manipulation, is iffy. How often do you find yourself needing a Smokestack 2-4 turns sooner than you typically draw it?

Runed Halo is good against single/low-threat decks (Dreadstill is an example of this). If you're playing Runed Halo against single/low-threat decks, why not Oblivion Ring? It's 2W casting cost is easier than WW, and it basically does the same thing, but with added utility (you can hit opposing Planeswalkers, artifacts, enchantments, etc).

For reference (my decklist):

5 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack

4 Oblivion Ring
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon
4 Magus of the Tabernacle

Sideboard:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Defense Grid
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Seal of Cleansing

I don't run any WW spells, so I feel comfortable with only 5 Plains; I've never had an issue with getting W online in time. My sideboard reflects my meta, although it's getting slower (mid-range stuff), so I'll probably be moving the Thorns out of there.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

@Arsenol

Thanks for the response. I find that runed halo saves me games more than O. Ring. I die to a few select Creatures, never any random ones. Usually Tombstalker, Sea Drake, Tarmogoyf (Cuz I don't have Moats), and Fast Dreadnoughts. I like both of them. I have been tempted to Main Runed Halo's, but havent decided yet (this is My Meta BTW). As for the Smokestax, If I run 2, I don't see them enough, and If I run 3, I see them too much. I have fluctuated between 2 and 4, and I'll probably try 3 tonight.

@Mordel

Believe it or Not, Runed Halo Wins against Faerie Stompy 80% of the time. Sea Drake, Serendib, Cloud of Faeries, and maybe 1 or 2 more creatures. In my opinion, Runed Halo Win's that match.

I'm participating in a tournament tonight, and there's usually 25 Tier 1 Decks (Threshold, Dreadstill, TES, AdNauseum Tend, Painter's, and Team America). I'll Post tomorrow about the results, what would have helped, and what did help.

[Mordel]

I don't see how halo would be better in the place of either some o-rings or wraths...especially in light of the fact I run humility.

I am not jabbing here, I am just very skeptical.

Edit: I just finished playing against burn and the first game was absolutely brutal and I was destroyed despite getting a lot of extra time by a second turn 3sphere and getting most of my pieces out. A eight point PoP was all she wrote because I couldn't seem to find a smoker and was forced to try to race with Elspeth(anthropomorphizing cards always strikes me as sort of weird with mtg cards, but it seems natural when referring to PW's).

I became sort of skeptical after the first game, despite being close...especially since all I really saw was bolts, chain lightnings, PoP, fetches and and a fantastic, I wasn't sure what he was playing exactly because he indicated testing on his game title. Either way, I figured whether it was some sort of sligh or outright burn, I would stand a good chance with the core cards of my strategy so I sided like this obviously:-2 moat -1 Humility +3 Sphere of Law My reasoning for more moats getting removed than humbles was that if he was in fact playing a textbook burn deck, having a moat out could hinder my efforts at racing him with factories and humble stood to affect fanatics in a more or less equal way. This plan worked out fine for me because I ended up playing a the most exciting game that I have played with this deck yet. I ended up keeping a hand that was tomb, kor haven, crucible, mox. He had a mulled down one, but I didn't really feel like playing a likely very favorable match out longer than I had to. As it turned out, the game lasted for twenty minutes with me at one life, with two spheres and feeding a smoker off of the top of my deck that was set at two for about three turns with no flagstones and a crucible that I managed to top deck on the second turn of my insane plan. He ended up with no lands and angelic blessing'd tokens smashing his face.

In game three, he mulled to six and I kept a risky six card hand because lands had been very unkind to me and hoped that like most burn, he was lighter in the mana department. The risky hand was plains, flagstones, city, smokestack, humility, flagstones. As it turned out he died a horrible death to being a bitch and disconnecting without saying anything further when he choked on any lands past his first and I got my blazing fourth turn smoker out, after I had managed to pull a crucible off of the top of my deck the turn earlier(though he didn't know that I had it when he disconnected).

Anyway, yeah...it was a really fun match for me, so I decided to bore everyone by giving a lengthy description because with almost every other 1.5 deck I have played, burn was absolutely brutal to face. To think, I almost took sphere of law out in favor of a more broad spectrum answer like ivory mask or halo. I am still going to consider another 3sphere in light of a disastrous match against ANT and additional must-counterness in the landstill and other such matches.

[georgjorge]

Faerie Stompy, like Dragon Stompy, can get amazing openings that very few decks can cope with, but it frequently also gets hands that are very easy to beat. So I wouldn't worry about getting beaten by it in two or three games, that happens to a lot of decks. Start worrying when you lose four or five matches in a row :wink:

In theory, it seems to me that a build with four O-Rings and four Halos between side and main, complimented with Humilities, should do pretty well here. Also, red Ajani will be better than Elspeth here (unless SoFI is down).

[Arsenal]

I've liked my traditional Armageddon Stax build, and plan to keep it together, but I also wanted to test Ajani and the red splash for Blood Moon in the SB. For those who have tested all configs with Ajani/red splash, what are your thoughts?

[Skeggi]

I've liked my traditional Armageddon Stax build, and plan to keep it together, but I also wanted to test Ajani and the red splash for Blood Moon in the SB. For those who have tested all configs with Ajani/red splash, what are your thoughts?

I preferred Ajani in the sideboard rather than the maindeck. When splashing red, Boil is pretty cool to also put in your sideboard. I don't like Blood Moon because it shuts down Flagstones.

[Arsenal]

But Blood Moon shutting down 70% of the format > shutting down your own Flagstones, no?

Also, if Ajani is in the sideboard, when does he come in? Also, for the matchups that he does come in, is there a white/artifact equivalent?

[Mordel]

Blood moon is vastly overrated. The format rolled with that punch and people have moved on and keep it in mind with newer deck generally.

[Arsenal]

Blood moon is vastly overrated. The format rolled with that punch and people have moved on and keep it in mind with newer deck generally.

Meh, I play Dragon Stompy, and I've rarely said to myself, "bleh, Blood Moon. I wish this was _____". The only times I've come across this is when I face a 100% monocolored deck, using zero nonbasics. Again, Blood Moon truly does wreck 70% of the format, or at least hinder them enough to swing the game in your favor.

Also, if by "rolling with that punch", you mean decks packing 1-2 basic land cards, that doesn't really mean a whole lot as they either (a.) must have a fetchland out before you resolve Moon, or (b.) must draw their 1-2 basic lands. Blood Moon is rated right where it should be.

Also, alot of decks don't pack enchantment removal, and even if they do, we run way more enchantments (and artifacts) than they should have Krosan Grips for.

[Mordel]

You should keep in mind that in dragon stompy nothing better than blood moon is available. White Stax already runs armageddon, has the ability to run an additional four copies, should it be needed. Furthermore, the deck runs the wasteland/crucible thing, smoker and in short has no shortage of ways to fuck with an opponent's mana.

I'm not even considering the idea that blood moon is an enchantment as a factor in why I disagree with the splash.

If people want to splash red, that's their perogative, but it seems like an absolutely pointless splash to me and more of an extra justification needed to try out a cool thing(Ajani Vengeant).

[Arsenal]

You should keep in mind that in dragon stompy nothing better than blood moon is available. White Stax already runs armageddon, has the ability to run an additional four copies, should it be needed. Furthermore, the deck runs the wasteland/crucible thing, smoker and in short has no shortage of ways to fuck with an opponent's mana.

I'm not even considering the idea that blood moon is an enchantment as a factor in why I disagree with the splash.

If people want to splash red, that's their perogative, but it seems like an absolutely pointless splash to me and more of an extra justification needed to try out a cool thing(Ajani Vengeant).

I disagree with your assessment of Blood Moon vs. Armageddon. While you NEED Crucible of Worlds in order for Armageddon to be one-sided, you don't need anything other than Blood Moon in order to get a one-sided, "I've effectively locked you out of the game on turn 1" effect on your opponent.

Again, Wasteland + Crucible is great, assuming you draw Crucible/get one to stick. Blood Moon simply needs to resolve in order to screw your opponent, as opposed to two-card combos of Wasteland/Crucible or Armageddon/Crucible.

While Blood Moon and Armageddon serve similar functions, I see Blood Moon as a turn 1 play that can completely shut your opponent down (much like a turn 1 Trinisphere can too). With Armageddon, Wasteland, and Smokestack, you are largely dependant on having a Crucible out in order to achieve maximum effectiveness.

Also, I'm interested in hearing how people have "rolled with the punches" to a resolved Blood Moon. Other than (a.) having a fetchland already in play before the Blood Moon sticks, and (b.) drawing/playing their basic land (if they run any), I don't see how most decks (not all, but most) have too many easy outs to a resolved Blood Moon.

[Mordel]

I don't know exactly about the blood moon thing anymore exactly, that was more or less off of the cuff, but I did play DS for a while and I noticed people started to run more basics as the deck caught on and it started to be splashed it almost everything that I ran into that could support it.

I play geddons raw all the time though. Twenty-six lands lands, 3spheres and moxes seems like a huge edge.

We are never going to see eye to eye on the issue of the red splash for moon and Ajani Vegeant. I think the splash is largely superfluous and even a bit difficult to properly support(I ran a slight red splash for boil, for a few days and I hated it) and you think that it is very useful and that the format sucks against moon. That's cool.

Keep in mind too that I am presently using the RichPeople/$keg$stax.dec variant and I also have three copies of Elspeth to support a smoker, on top of a deck that has 58(sixty-one card deck), which allows a raw smoker to be not too pleasant, but doable.

[Mordel]

Okay, so I noticed that for the last few days, I have been getting terrible land draws with my deck on mws and I strongly suspected the 61st card for this bad mojo.

I did twenty test draw of eight to simulate some hands with one version that had one less number of land and guess what happened...the sixty card deck(with one less fucking land) got three less mulls.

To make extra sure, I simulated ten more times on each and the sixty card deck got one less mull than the sixty-one card deck. What the hell?!

As a result of this, I had to agonize over what non-land card to remove and ended up going with o-ring.

This what the deck looks like now...

// Lands
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [NE] Kor Haven
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
8 [4E] Plains (1)

// Creatures
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
4 [LG] Moat
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [TE] Humility
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [B] Armageddon
4 [US] Smokestack

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 3 [OD] Sphere of Law
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 2 [5E] Wrath of God
SB: 3 [WL] Null Rod

As you can see, compared to the earlier list, the sideboard lost the auras of silence. I have never sided in the auras yet. It was between seal, or aura's and while seal does not remove a blood moon that barely fazes me anyway, it is easier to cast. I came up with null rod because it shuts down top, crypt and a number of other annoying artifacts...as well as affinity, which is a nightmare match that I have seen twice. To make room for three, I ditched a keg.

I am unsure on the changes as a whole to the sideboard, but I am positive about a few things:

-I want to be able to run four rings in the second and possible third game

-aura of silence has been useless to me because it is too slow in matches where I have really needed it

-I have played zero games against dredge with this build and I have never actually used a keg that I brought in for anything other than saccing to a smoker...no joke or exaggeration here.

-pithing needle on Elspeth sucks, but a smoker solves that problem in a slow way if I haven't put a chalice for one down yet and I don't draw an o-ring

Ideas? Insights?

Sorry for the double post.

[Shawon]

// Lands
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [NE] Kor Haven
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
8 [4E] Plains (1)

// Creatures
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
4 [LG] Moat
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [TE] Humility
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [b] Armageddon
4 [US] Smokestack

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 3 [OD] Sphere of Law
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 2 [5E] Wrath of God
SB: 3 [WL] Null Rod

I thought 2 Oblivion Ring was retarded.

Anyway, Ancient Tomb, like Crucible, should be an undisputed 4-of. It's the best land next to Flagstones. Maybe you should a Factory since you run Moat anyway.

Other than that, I can't argue against your numbers. Armageddon is what makes the deck, but perhaps times have changed. I always ran 5 Geddon or Ravage of War. But since you're running Elspeth and the gang, the Armageddon route might not be Stax's number 1 goal anymore. 4 Smokestack should be correct, since you have Elspeth and you have more perms available in extra Moat/Humility.

Have you tried Horizon Canopy? I run a singleton. Needless to say, it's an engine with Crucible of Worlds.

If you wanna go crazy and try interesting cards, awhile back I suggested trying out Beseech the Queen. Pretty left field, huh? I thought of using it because it can fetch Crucible/Armageddon when you're in a stalemate. Plus, it can fetch utility land. Just throwing it out there.

Bottled Cloister is another sb option.

[Mordel]

Yeah, I couldn't figure out what else to cut beyond lands, which was not something I wanted to do considering the chief reason I cut a card was to make it so I had more lands and a sixty card deck. Geddons are not as important in a variant that does not run magus or prison though. Geddon is still a backbreaker, but is not required to win as I have found out number of times after clearing an opponent's board with a ramped up smoker(three counters).

Cloister is interesting, but it doesn't really fill any holes that auras getting ousted left. Rods do though.

I will see for sure, but I have a sneaking suspicion that I will end up siding out something for a ring in numerous games. Hopefully I won't lose as a result of missing one in the main and having it in the side instead, but it's just mws anyway.

I honestly could not think of any other non land cards to remove and I know someone will suggest smoker and no way to that. Smoker is way, way to awesome to cut a copy of...I think it is pretty much either remove a land and have only twenty-five(I don't like this at all because it weakens my ability to cast a geddon raw) or remove a ring and not be able to remove something as consistently...more often than not, I am removing goyfs and other stuff that involves creatures, which humility and moat deal with anyway, so o-ring seems more feasible. I am still hesitant all the same.

[Shawon]

@Mordel:

Here's a list I made:

4 Flags
4 Tomb
3 Cities
2 Factories
2 Wasteland
1 Kor Haven
1 Horizon Canopy
8 Snow Plains

3 Elspeth

4 Diamond
4 Crucible
4 Smokestack
4 3Ball
4 CotV
3 Moat
2 Humility
3 Geddon
2 Ravages
2 o-Ring

[Arsenal]

So, it appears as though there are 3 distinct builds of the Stax archetype in this thread:

(1.) Armageddon Stax. (mono-white, traditional build)
(2.) Dutch Stax. (mono-white, Elspeth & Moats)
(3.) Vengeance Stax. (white w/ red splash for Ajani and other red goodies)

Could someone breakdown each decks' strengths, weaknesses, and most importantly, matchups where one build easily trumps another build (for example, if Dutch Stax >>>> Armageddon Stax in the ___ matchup, please go into detail as to how and why)?

[Mordel]

I'll work on that for $keg/RichPeople$tax.

On a sixty-first card note, I decided to just put the o-ring back in and leave the deck at 61. I added one more keg to compensate for the missing slot in the sb.

[Fred Bear]

I have some pretty comprehensive match-up data on the 'standard' build that I'm willing to put out there. I'll start compiling and post something probably early next week.

-FB...

[Mordel]

I have some pretty comprehensive match-up data on the 'standard' build that I'm willing to put out there. I'll start compiling and post something probably early next week.

-FB...

He speaks!

Hmmm, so you considered and passed-over the additions of moat and humility?

Edit: I don't know if people on mws(randoms, not playtest buddies) suck or they have no idea how to play against $tax/the build that I have comes out of the blue, but it is undefeated by dreadstill. They don't seem to have shit on it. I don't even bother to bring in the defense grids against them most of the time. I just finished up a game against some dude and I missed like seven land drops after the first three(first land was a city that was used to get a CoTV for one) and he was getting a fetch land out almost every other turn and counters up the ass and still lost a horrible death to a smoker lock and did the patented *player lost*

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

Played a tournament last night, very bad night. I don't know where everyone was at, and there was about eleven of us:(. I had the bye the first round, which was just horrible, because I hate not playing Magic! Round two, I was paired against Enchantress (Solitaire). My first hand was normal (4 Lands, Smokestax, Ravages, Crucible). He cast a turn two Aura of Silence, and THe game just started going downhill, because on turn 6, after I cast CoW, I lose, but I couldn't do Much. Game two I sided in Halo's and Needles, and I raced him with a turn 2 Angel, turn 3 armageddon both games. SB didn't do much, but I find the best way to beat Solitaire is to just race them.

Game three was against Faerie Stompy, Which I usually beat. Long story short, I mulled to 5, and Lost game one. Game two I CoTV for 0 turn one, and after wasting the Ancient Tomb and Casting 3sphere, 10 turns with MotT wins me game 2. Game three, It was close, Ancient Tomb and Serendib take me down to about 3, when Runed Halo Saves my life when I get Down to 3 life. I drop a few Ghostly Prisons, and Cast Ravages, but He Drop's Pestermite, and Just kills me with a lack of mana. Very depressing.

Game four, Aggro Loam, and I was testing Needle. Needless to say Suppression Field helped me stand a Chance, But! I tested needle, and after he cast Chalice for one, my luck just ran out (not that I had any luck at all!). Seismic Assault Kills Me, and as good as O. Ring is, It stops me from dieing to C Crusher. but Seismic Assault Kills me Game 2.

So I weaseled Myself into top 4, and I got the chance again At faerie stompy. I Drop turn 1 Trinisphere, I Drop turn 2 Elspeth, and just beat his face into the ground. Game 2, Triple FoW is pretty good, especially since I'm getting Land fucked, and Game three came down to the wire. I had MotT in play, casted Armageddon, but a Bad play mistake on my end lost me the Game. I'm thinking of getting a tattoo on my hand to remind me face down Angel gets countered with CoTV at 0. Needless to say, I had a bad night

I play tested a lot last night, against numerous decks, and I found that with the Blood Moons, I beat Threshold, and Team America a lot more. With the Needles instead of Suppression Field, I lose a lot more to Aggro Loam, and decks with multiple activated abilities.

Overall, Defense Grid is showing a lot better results than Rule of Law. I like Runed Halo a lot, and I think I am keeping it in my Sideboard. Blood Moon helps against a lot of decks, so I will continue to test it. There hasnt been a lot of dredge in My format, so Crypts are out for a little while. I find Ghostly Prison can beat dreadstill fairly easy (until I get Moats). I tested 2 Elspeth instead of Ajani, and I think It worked a lot better. Ajani is just too slow for Stax (if that is even possible). If anyone has any good reason's for Ajani, please let me know.

[Arsenal]

If anyone has any good reason's for Ajani, please let me know.

The only reason I wanted to test Ajani was because (a.) it opens up all sorts of red goodies (Blood Moon), (b.) it gives you a win condition that doesn't use the red zone, and (c.) it's one-sided Armageddon ability can potentially change the complexion of the deck.

EDIT: For those who have tested the red splash, did Goblin Welder ever get any consideration (as a SB card against control perhaps)?

[Mordel]

Rule of Law and Grid serve completely different purposes...I don't get it. Is there a solidarity deck there or something that makes them viable in the same match? Rule of law seems good against combo and that's it, whereas Grid stops counters early on etc.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

@Mordel

Rule of Law served a purpose when the environment was really heavy, but I realize that I have enough Mainboard hate to beat combo anyways. My metagame consists of everything, so it is very difficult to find the correct sideboard cards. Solitaire is a very difficult matchup for my deck, so Rule of Law does help against it.

I've tested Ajani, and when I get it, it helps a lot. Ajani doesn't stay on the board long enough to destroy lands, and if it does, there usually is no reason to destroy their lands (because I have them locked out. I think Elspeth is way better to play. I still switch him in and out depending if I am playing a red splash. His first ability is good, especially early on, but he is real easy to kill (only bad part).

[Skeggi]

Hey guys, I thought I'd drop by again and tell you about what I did yesterday, arrogantly but conveniently ignoring the suggestions about 4 Ancient Tombs and ramblings about Bottled Cloyster.

So, yesterday there was a tournament with top4 in Utrecht. 31 people attended, among them was me, with $keg$tax. Let me bore you guys first with a list:

ADHD $keg$tax


3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Moat
4 Humility
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Smokestack
2 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
4 Mox Diamond

1 Kor Haven
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
8 Plains
1 Plateau
3 Flagstones of Trokair (thanks The Wes ;-) )

Sideboard:


2 Wrath of God
2 Boil
4 Powder Keg
3 Pithing Needle
1 Suppression Field (didn't have the 4th Needle)
2 Trinisphere
1 Armageddon


So there I was, at the start of the tournament, wanting to really test $keg$tax...because it had cost me lotsacash :wink:.

Anyway, round 1, against RW aggro boros-deck-wins-kinda stuff.

Long story short, he had no answer for either Humility or Moat. I had no idea what to board in against him, because it was such an easy match-up. I think I threw in some Powder Kegs for Trinispheres or something. Didn't really matter, because I won 2-0.

Round 2, Domain Zoo Sligh thingie.

I won the first game because of Humility and eventually a Moat. The second and third game I lost because of Krosan Grip + Burn...ouch. Lost this one 1-2, so my current standing is 1-1-0. Not very impressive so far...perhaps I should consider CoP:Red. Oh by the way, Ancient Tomb really hurt me here, so playing 4? I really prefer 3.

Round 3, Boros Deck Wins.

Boros Deck didn't win. I won 2-1. The second game I lost because of lotsa burn. Perhaps I should consider CoP:Red. Current standing: 2-1-0.

Round 4, Rgb Goblins.

Game 1 was pretty easy; Moat and Humility shutting him down. Game 2 I sided a bit odd, and connecting Lacky with very fast Goblins and Krosan Grips really got me bad. Game 3 I won because of Humility, Moat, Smokestack, Armageddon, and he was locked. It got closer than I thought it would. Krosan Grip is a bitch. Especially with all those little red men. Perhaps I should consider CoP:Red. Anyway, current standing now: 3-1-0...we're getting somewhere.

Round 5, Goblins 2.0; aka Little Blue Men, Fish, Merfolk.

In my eyes they're things that swim, but can't get through a Moat :laugh:. I won this one 2-0. Current standing 4-1-0, amagad I might get into top4 :smile:.

Round 6, TES.

My opening hand had something like, Geddon, Geddon, Smokestack, Crucible and 3 good lands. So I mulled that into: Wasteland, City of Traitors, Wasteland, Trinisphere, 2 other cards I didn't care about. I was on the play, so I drop my Wasteland, go. He drops an Undiscovered Paradise, go. I drop Trinisphere, turn later I Waste his land, then I waste another land, then I draw anther wasteland to waste another land...and he only plays 11 lands...with Trinisphere in play, that was a problem for him. So he scooped them up. Game 2 I held a hand with a turn 2 Trinisphere again. He was on the play. He threw down a land and I think a Chrome Mox, go. I drop a land, go. Turn 2 he tries to go off, but can't. My turn 2 I drop Trinisphere and from then on it was pretty much game over.

Current Standings: 5-1-0, I'm going into the top4 as first on the list leading with 15 points.

Semi-Finals: F-MUC. Just my luck; this is a really really bad MU for me. He just packs too much control, and I'm too slow. Game 1 he wins, countering everything I have and keeping me low with Back to Basics. Game 2 I won; he didn't have enough counters and I had him locked with a resolved Moat and a resolved Humility (after I resolved a Trinisphere and a Boil, MUHAHAHA). Game 3 I had a great hand, but his hand was better: 3 FoW. Nothing I tried to play came through, and then he ended it with Back to Basics.

So I end 3rd-4th place together with TES I beat earlier in the Swiss. I have to conclude that $keg$tax is fun to play, it's solid and it's, above all, a good deck. I must admit I had some luck with the match-ups, but I guess $keg$tax was simply a good choice for this meta.

Props: Cool opponents, Fahad (the guy who invented and played F-MUC) even gave me an Elspeth, because he knew I needed one. The Prize-support was pretty great, everyone with 9+ points recieved something. And ofcourse, $keg$tax for being awesome :smile:

Slops: eerh...can't really think of any. It was a great tournament :smile:.

[klaus]

Hey guys, I thought I'd drop by again and tell you about what I did yesterday, arrogantly but conveniently ignoring the suggestions about 4 Ancient Tombs and ramblings about Bottled Cloyster.

So, yesterday there was a tournament with top4 in Utrecht. 31 people attended, among them was me, with $keg$tax. Let me bore you guys first with a list:

ADHD $keg$tax


3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Moat
4 Humility
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Smokestack
2 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
4 Mox Diamond

1 Kor Haven
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
8 Plains
1 Plateau

Sideboard:


2 Wrath of God
2 Boil
4 Powder Keg
3 Pithing Needle
1 Suppression Field (didn't have the 4th Needle)
2 Trinisphere
1 Armageddon


So there I was, at the start of the tournament, wanting to really test $keg$tax...because it had cost me lotsacash :wink:.

Anyway, round 1, against RW aggro boros-deck-wins-kinda stuff.

Long story short, he had no answer for either Humility or Moat. I had no idea what to board in against him, because it was such an easy match-up. I think I threw in some Powder Kegs for Trinispheres or something. Didn't really matter, because I won 2-0.

Round 2, Domain Zoo Sligh thingie.

I won the first game because of Humility and eventually a Moat. The second and third game I lost because of Krosan Grip + Burn...ouch. Lost this one 1-2, so my current standing is 1-1-0. Not very impressive so far...perhaps I should consider CoP:Red. Oh by the way, Ancient Tomb really hurt me here, so playing 4? I really prefer 3.

Round 3, Boros Deck Wins.

Boros Deck didn't win. I won 2-1. The second game I lost because of lotsa burn. Perhaps I should consider CoP:Red. Current standing: 2-1-0.

Round 4, Rgb Goblins.

Game 1 was pretty easy; Moat and Humility shutting him down. Game 2 I sided a bit odd, and connecting Lacky with very fast Goblins and Krosan Grips really got me bad. Game 3 I won because of Humility, Moat, Smokestack, Armageddon, and he was locked. It got closer than I thought it would. Krosan Grip is a bitch. Especially with all those little red men. Perhaps I should consider CoP:Red. Anyway, current standing now: 3-1-0...we're getting somewhere.

Round 5, Goblins 2.0; aka Little Blue Men, Fish, Merfolk.

In my eyes they're things that swim, but can't get through a Moat :laugh:. I won this one 2-0. Current standing 4-1-0, amagad I might get into top4 :smile:.

Round 6, TES.

My opening hand had something like, Geddon, Geddon, Smokestack, Crucible and 3 good lands. So I mulled that into: Wasteland, City of Traitors, Wasteland, Trinisphere, 2 other cards I didn't care about. I was on the play, so I drop my Wasteland, go. He drops an Undiscovered Paradise, go. I drop Trinisphere, turn later I Waste his land, then I waste another land, then I draw anther wasteland to waste another land...and he only plays 11 lands...with Trinisphere in play, that was a problem for him. So he scooped them up. Game 2 I held a hand with a turn 2 Trinisphere again. He was on the play. He threw down a land and I think a Chrome Mox, go. I drop a land, go. Turn 2 he tries to go off, but can't. My turn 2 I drop Trinisphere and from then on it was pretty much game over.

Current Standings: 5-1-0, I'm going into the top4 as first on the list leading with 15 points.

Semi-Finals: F-MUC. Just my luck; this is a really really bad MU for me. He just packs too much control, and I'm too slow. Game 1 he wins, countering everything I have and keeping me low with Back to Basics. Game 2 I won; he didn't have enough counters and I had him locked with a resolved Moat and a resolved Humility (after I resolved a Trinisphere and a Boil, MUHAHAHA). Game 3 I had a great hand, but his hand was better: 3 FoW. Nothing I tried to play came through, and then he ended it with Back to Basics.

So I end 3rd-4th place together with TES I beat earlier in the Swiss. I have to conclude that $keg$tax is fun to play, it's solid and it's, above all, a good deck. I must admit I had some luck with the match-ups, but I guess $keg$tax was simply a good choice for this meta.

Props: Cool opponents, Fahad (the guy who invented and played F-MUC) even gave me an Elspeth, because he knew I needed one. The Prize-support was pretty great, everyone with 9+ points recieved something. And ofcourse, $keg$tax for being awesome :smile:

Slops: eerh...can't really think of any. It was a great tournament :smile:.


The 4th Ancient Tomb will allow you to drop Humility/Moat/Elspeth a turn faster thus saving your way more than those 2 dmg in average.
A. Tomb allows you to drop Trinisphere earlier and increases the chances for turn 1 chalices.
Lifeloss is just no reason not to run it in my opinion.
If you're concerned about burn and other red stuff try out Sphere of Law or Ajani in your sb.

Also, without Defense Grids chances to beat counters.dec are definitely looking grim.
I'd say D. Grid>Boil.

[Skeggi]

The 4th Ancient Tomb will allow you to drop Humility/Moat/Elspeth a turn faster thus saving your way more than those 2 dmg in average.
A. Tomb allows you to drop Trinisphere earlier and increases the chances for turn 1 chalices.
Lifeloss is just no reason not to run it in my opinion.
If you're concerned about burn and other red stuff try out Sphere of Law or Ajani in your sb.

Also, without Defense Grids chances to beat counters.dec are definitely looking grim.
I'd say D. Grid>Boil.

On all points I disagree. I've explained earlier in the thread why.

P.S. it's a (shitty) tournament report, so it's just an FYI, do with it what you want. Don't see it as asking for 'advice' concerning Ancient Tombs or Defense Grids because I've made up my mind about those for now.

[Fred Bear]

On all points I disagree. I've explained earlier in the thread why.

P.S. it's a (shitty) tournament report, so it's just an FYI, do with it what you want. Don't see it as asking for 'advice' concerning Ancient Tombs or Defense Grids because I've made up my mind about those for now.

If you've 'made up your mind' and are no longer looking for 'advice', then quit posting. I'm not trying to be a dick, but that's the primary purpose of boards - to discuss and improve decks. If you've outgrown them, man-up and move on.

klaus is exactly right, the 7th 2-mana land will save you way, way more often then it will kill you (play a 100 or so games and prove it to yourself). But it will kill you sometimes. It's a little something I (and most of society) like to call 'risk vs reward'. And Ancient Tomb is well worth the risk in a Legacy Stax deck. [Note: My builds do NOT play 4x City of Traitors based on the same evaluation. The mana screw situations it causes early game are much more significant than the number of times you win with it.) If they make another 2-mana land, whatever drawback they print on it will get evaluated for the same thing.

To answer my thoughts on the newer morphs on Stax, while being good decks, I do not believe they are a major upgrade to the archetype. I think they are simply focused builds for defeating a known meta (i.e. high percentage of aggro). Armageddon Stax' major weaknesses are Landstill and straight Control decks (about the only decks I have a <50% against over time) - not aggro (Skeggi, the card you are looking for is Sphere of Law not COP:Red which requires mana every time you use it). I have still not seen how a 3-card combo is a good idea against them. I realize that you don't need all 3, but 1 is often weak on its own in previous even-to-bad match-ups (if you even get it on the board). If you opponent is good enough to recognize you are playing 'combo-Stax', the match-ups get much tougher. If somebody can show much improved performance in these match-ups, I'm willing to reevaluate, but it has not been the case in my testing.

I'm sorry to be so direct, but even with extensive experience - nobody is infallible.

-FB...

[Skeggi]

First off, I haven't outgrown the need for advice; ofcourse I need advice. It's just that this list worked pretty solid.

Sphere of Law is a 4cc spell; Domain Zoo Sligh also runs Gaddock Teeg. For me, this is a reason to choose CoP:Red. I must admit though, Sphere of Law still seems tempting.

I agree 2-mana lands are totally awesome. They stop being awesome when you need basic lands though; which was the primary reason I dropped the 4th Ancient Tomb for a Plains. The fact that a basic Plains also produces :w: and doesn't cost any life is also a bonus. I feel Plains is a very underrated card; people try to run as little as possible and try to squeeze in that extra Wasteland, Mishra's Factory or Ancient Tomb. I think it's safer to have the extra Plains.

Also: I've played far over 100 Stax games. The transition from 4 to 3 Ancient Tombs has been very good to me so far. Keep in mind I only play 2 Trinispheres maindeck, and 6 double lands and 4 Moxes keep chances of Chalice@1 on turn 1 still reasonable.

[The Wes]

Ok, first off maybe I'm missing something Skeg, but shouldn't your list have Flagstones in it? I keep counting your list but its so cold in this office I keep getting a different ending count so I'm giving up. Also, does Trini of 2 main hurt your combo matchups? Everytime I've gone down to two I always end up coming back to at least 3, but that could just be my fear of them using free cards.

I'd have to add one deck that always gives me problems besides Control and Landstill is Survival. Their massive amount of artifact/enchant removal has always given me trouble. That being said, the addition of Humility helps this match-up greatly. Overall though I'm not that excited with the addition of Moat.

I was trying out creatureless stax with the Elspeths and Humilities back when you released you stax list and I thought the Moats were a great addition. Since trying it out for a while I find them less appealing and have gone back to ghostly prison (and I know they don't protect Elspeth). 17 four mana cards is a lot main. Perhaps I'm just relying on a more mana denial strategy still, but I find it to be a tiny bit more solid overall. Humility still stops their problem creatures, ghostly helps light the mana load and can be cast under a Teeg if needed. And who cares if they can pay 2 to attack with their 1/1, for most decks I'd rather them be using their mana in this way. Also, is the mana base just so tight that you can't fit a Tabernacle in it? I'm still having great results with it...

[Skeggi]

Ok, first off maybe I'm missing something Skeg, but shouldn't your list have Flagstones in it? I keep counting your list but its so cold in this office I keep getting a different ending count so I'm giving up. Also, does Trini of 2 main hurt your combo matchups? Everytime I've gone down to two I always end up coming back to at least 3, but that could just be my fear of them using free cards.

Oops yeah, I also run 3 Flagstones :smile:. Against TES I had no problem mulling to stuff I needed, but I may have just been lucky. I admit I do have to test the combo match-up more, but fact is, combo is not very popular in my meta. If your meta has lots of combo, you should run 4 Trinispheres in your maindeck.



I'd have to add one deck that always gives me problems besides Control and Landstill is Survival. Their massive amount of artifact/enchant removal has always given me trouble. That being said, the addition of Humility helps this match-up greatly. Overall though I'm not that excited with the addition of Moat.

I was trying out creatureless stax with the Elspeths and Humilities back when you released you stax list and I thought the Moats were a great addition. Since trying it out for a while I find them less appealing and have gone back to ghostly prison (and I know they don't protect Elspeth). 17 four mana cards is a lot main. Perhaps I'm just relying on a more mana denial strategy still, but I find it to be a tiny bit more solid overall. Humility still stops their problem creatures, ghostly helps light the mana load and can be cast under a Teeg if needed. And who cares if they can pay 2 to attack with their 1/1, for most decks I'd rather them be using their mana in this way. Also, is the mana base just so tight that you can't fit a Tabernacle in it? I'm still having great results with it...

These are all very good points. In fact, you can very well be right. I myself have found Moat to be amazing however, and it was much better to me than Prison ever was. People also scoop sooner when they see a Moat (which allows you to walk away from your table earlier and explore your meta, finding that one TES player you'll be playing and know how to mull game 1). They have some (misguided?) hope against Prison. Anyway, if you keep having great results: if it ain't broke, don't fix it :laugh:.

[The Wes]

Interesting point and I never thought about it that way. Prison does keep them around a lot longer than Moat. If only I could get a hold of some. Though lets be honest here, them just giving up happens with a lot of cards in this deck.

[Mordel]

Smokestack wins me more games in the $keg$tax than factories and Elspeth does by swinging. That might be because in lots of matches I focus on getting a smoker and a way to feed each turn out though. I rarely find myself attacking.

I haven't run into many Gaddock Teegs, but on mws, when it rains it pours it seems and right now it seems to be raining monoblue dreadstill and random jank, though I have been seeing rising numbers of TA in games. Either way, I was lucky and in the match that I saw the Teeg, I was fortunate enough to get an O-ring on him before things got really dangerous.

[_erbs_]

As for the mana configuration i run with this:
3 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
2 crystal vein
3 wasteland
3 mishra's factory
3 flagstone of trokair
8 plains
4 mox diamonds
1 marble diamond.

Just on my exprience in dealing with burn.

Sphere of Law - abit slow if don't get any mana accelerants or turbo lands becasue of its 3:w: casting cost. But when you have 2 in play it would to totally shutdown your opponent. But still seems to be the best choice, though i haven't tried COP:Red.

Sphere of Resistance - 50/50 problem with it (red/burn) has tons of artifact hate which sometimes isn't worth bec it will just live for 1-2 turns. but good against combo and threshold decks.

Zuran Orb- 50/50 (red/burn) has tons of artifact hate.

Nomad Stadium - only good after a geddon or if you hit threshold which is slow.

Circle of Protection: Red - Never tried but im tempted in trying, seems a good choice for me

[f|i[p]]

Congrats on the win, Its good to see your quite happy with the results of your research...

Regarding 2 mana lands, I would never run less than 7. 4 tombs and 3 city is the right count for me, the thing is, it provides acceleration to get an early lock piece down. I used to advice my cousin, that if he plays against a stax player waste his 2 mana lands early and you'll find him strugging to put down a lock piece, thus buying you time to get in more damage. Fred Bear is also right in saying that 2 mana lands saves you more than it kills you. Ive lost a few games due to ancient tomb and at times having 2 of them at a time, but I never really thought of replacing them as I knew their importance to the deck.

As I looked at crystal vein, although their good because they provide you options, They suck if you need the 2 mana early. Sacrificing a land to get the 2 mana early on, might get you land screwed eventually and cause you to lose the game, specially we run so many 4 drops.(wee need that 2 mana producer constantly).

As for burn, I always considered circle of protection as one of the best protection. Its a little mana intensive, but it stops the pain. SPhere of law is just like warmth, but this only applies to red burn spells.

I partially agree to what fredbear stated that the new stax does not really improve our bad match ups( landstill, land.dec, loam variants,muc) and thus it is not a major upgrade. However it does improve the good - even ones slightly enough to warrant more testing. It also has an improvement against survival variants just because of humility. Their tool box creature approach is completely nullified by humility alone. The only problem I really saw in this is that it tends to be slower then geddon stax, and creature permanents multiplying like crazy on the other table waiting for a disenchant effect. This is due to the absence of the armageddon magus lock. My conclusion, it needs more testing.But its good none the less.

@Fred Bear , 3 card combo?

[_erbs_]

@f|i[p]
Maybe main boarding several warth of god or powder keg could work for the 1/1 tokens waiting for a disenchant effect or a red splash for pyroclasm or fire spout.

But if you go the Humility route, and rely only on Elspeth alone as your win con its kinda slow. Maybe mobilization could help ?

[Mordel]

I am not really sold on cop:r.

The reason is that I am generally a huge pessimist when it comes to drawing things when I need to, but honesty; more often than not by a very large margin, I will have three mana on turn two and curve out into four on the third. Between first turn chalice, stuff like 3sphere and so forth, getting a sphere of law out isn't hard for me. With cop:r, I have to continuosly pump mana into it, it can get pith'd the odd time when a chalice for one isn't around to stop it and the one mana burn that I will often take casting it could be very costly in some situations.

In many situation it is apples and oranges (so the expression goes), save for each having distinct advantages, like cop allowing you to create a force field in some situations in response to it getting knocked-off, but meh. Sphere hasn't let me down yet.

[Skeggi]

;300029']I partially agree to what fredbear stated that the new stax does not really improve our bad match ups( landstill, land.dec, loam variants,muc) and thus it is not a major upgrade.

Well my meta doesn't have any land.dec, yes MUC and Landstill still are tough, but Loam has improved significantly. It's a 50-50 match now, perhaps leaning more towards Stax. Mainly because of Humility, it shuts them down good if it gets through.


But if you go the Humility route, and rely only on Elspeth alone as your win con its kinda slow. Maybe mobilization could help ?

At least it's worth a try :smile:.

[Patrick]

I'm taking a leap and writing out what my Stax list is, and what I'm doing about each possible matchup. I prefer the traditional Geddon Stax, with Crucible, Prison, and Magus and Armageddon. Without further ado:

Lands:
7 Plains
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kor Haven
26 Lands

Notes about the lands:

7 Plains just feels right. It ended up being the 61st card when I built the deck. 4 City/Tomb is right for me. No need to start that discussion. There are only 2 Mishra's Factory's because I only own 2 of the DCI foil ones. It's never been a problem, but if I can pick up a 3rd one it'll probably replace Plains or Ghost Quarter. Ghost Quarter is randomly good, but it never throws me off enough to remove it from the build. Kor Haven has proven amazing. Often it does nothing, but sometimes a Tombstalker can fly over your Moat and through your Ghostly Prisons. That's when Kor Haven shines.

Maindeck

Creatures:
3 Exalted Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

Artifacts:
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack

Enchantments:
4 Ghostly Prison
1 Moat

Spells:
4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War

Sideboard:
3 Aura of Silence
3 Damping Matrix
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
---------------
2 Runed Halo
3 Humility

So let's go!

On the creatures:

Exalted Angel wins many, many games. I considered cutting it for a while, but I couldn't think of a card that did what Angel does. This card is often your out to a burn deck that got 4 lands and you didn't draw Armageddon. Angel helps you race random Sligh creatures. She also ends games fast when you can't afford to risk the late-game strategy. That said, she's also a good diversion. If the cards in my hand are telling me I'm winning the game with Armageddon I have no problem throwing the Angel into a Force of Will.

Magus is good. He blocks everything but a mutant Tarmogoyf and lives. The taxing effect of him combined with Ghostly Prison is still good. This version of Stax attacks two weaknesses of the format: Creatures have to attack and people have to combo to win. If people can't attack with their creatures they probably can't win. He's also another form of mana denial, though he's not as reliable for that.

Artifacts:

Chalice of the Void is at 4, I don't think that's ever been in contest. I recently dropped my Trinisphere number to 3 to support 1 more Ghostly Prison. I don't know if I'll stick to this or yet, but it doesn't change the deck significantly. 4 Crucible is the number I like. I've seen builds with 3 or 2, that just seems like wasted slots if you don't have 4. Mox Diamond exists. Smokestack is a scary card for a lot of players, especially people who have played against Stax. I've become familiar with the psychological aspect of playing Stax. A lot of people remember what it's like to lose because Stax blew up all their lands, or made them sac all their shit to the Smokestack. People play this game for fun, and Smokestack (along with Geddon) is not a fun card. It's fun for me! Also, Smokestack will wreck permanent-light decks, and resolving 'geddon means they start sacrificing Tarmogoyf's and other stuff that's otherwise hard to remove. I've toyed with 3 and 4 stacks, I like four better.

Enchantments:

Like I said, this deck attacks the principle that creatures have to attack me for me to lose the game. Legacy is largely an aggro format, and the deck punishes that. Ghostly Prison stops a few decks cold. Goblins and Ichorid usually have no out to this card game 1. Multiple copies stop things like Sligh, random aggro decks etc. Any deck that has to pay to attack has a dilema: pay to attack with 1 guy or pay to put more guys on the board? Attacking is almost always the correct choice, but with the mana denial in this deck they're probably only attacking with 1 creature, and either a Magus or Crucible'd Mishra's Factory can stop it (sometimes). This is a good card that forces the opponent to ration out already scarce resources. Moat was simply added as the 5th Prison effect a long time ago and it's stayed in the deck because it wins a lot of games.

Spells:

At this point you should know the deck is based around mana denial, and the slight psychological edge of playing cards that make people miserable. Armageddon is perfect! The card has so much synergy with the rest of the deck, I run 5! Ravages is just a cooler Armageddon, and people are usually impressed that I found a copy (pack mint, too!). Of all the cards in the deck, Armageddon ends the most games. So many decks in this format play 22 or less lands, including fetches. If an opponent has 4 lands in play and has fetched 2 of them, he/she has 16 left. By the time they've got to 2 more Stax has already rebuilt and set up Smokestack or Prison or something else game breaking. With something like Trinisphere on the table they aren't back in the game until 3 turns later at best, while with City and Tomb you're back in 2 turns later.

Notes on the board:

Aura of Silence: This card is simply better than Disenchant or Seal of Cleansing. For an extra white it's a Seal of Cleansing that stops combos and causes more mana denial.

Damping Matrix: Almost exclusively for decks running AEther Vial, I stumbled upon the fact that Affinity can't deal with this card. It's randomly good too, like against Figure of Destiny.

Sphere of Resistance: This card is tricky to play right. You need to bring this in to slow the game down. Nevermind that it stops combo decks (though that's another reason it's here). There are certain times when slowing the game benefits you more than your opponent, or doesn't benefit them at all.

Trinisphere: This is a pretty recent change. I just like having access to the 4th copy for things like Burn, Belcher, Sligh, Threshold, or whatever. This might change before the Grand Prix.

Runed Halo: This is a new thing, I've never tried it. I used to have Oblivion Ring in my board, but I wanted it out. O-ring is good, but it doesn't really hold up to the pressure on cards in the sideboard. They need to be as universal as possible, and O-Ring is a little too slow for my taste. I'm picturing naming Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Goblin Charbelcher, Ichorid, Fireblast, Tendrils of Agony, blah blah blah. Who knows.

Humility: A couple weeks ago I played 1 in my board and I wished I had more. It couples well with Ghostly Prison/Moat. It also dramatically helps the Survival matchup, which I'm like 1-12 with on games played. My good friend is a great mind in the Survival archetype and we've agreed that Stax can't deal with how that deck puts permanents into play fast and can make enough mana with just 1 or 2 lands. Humility is probably going to come in over the Angels a lot, they just don't work together. I can see situations where this is just bad though, so I'm really open to change on this slot.


Here is a list of match-ups and the relevant cards:

Goblins: You're leaning on Ghostly Prison, Moat, Magus here. Any 1 of these cards really hurts the deck. Combined with Armageddon you win the game. Here you are the control deck. Games 2 and 3 should be +3 Humility +2 Runed Halo +1 Trinisphere, -4 Smokestack, -2 Chalice of the Void.

Threshold: This is hard. You're still the control deck but you have less ways to control the game. The best cards to resolve here are Armageddon and Smokestack. Thresh usually runs 18 lands, and 2 or 3 basics. Fetching included, even losing 3 lands is unbearable for Thresh. They also can't dump things onto the board, so Smokestack can put them out of the game fast. Part of the trick is throwing things like Chalice at 1 down turn 1. They'll have to Force that, or else you're in good shape. Try to lure counters out with Crucible and Exalted Angel. This match-up gets significantly better or worse based on the player. At the worst it's probably 40-60 in their favor. Knowing what to do improves your odds a lot.
+3 Humility, +1 Trinisphere, +2 Runed Halo, -3 Exalted Angel, -1 Crucible of Worlds, -1 Smokestack, -1 Ghostly Prison

Rock Deck: With cards like Duress and Thoughtsieze the Rock is going to prove annoying. Make sure you don't keep a hand with 1 good card and you should be alright. Big players in this match again are Prison and Moat. The biggest problem is Pernicious Deed. Game 1 you really have no out to this card. Either don't let them play it or keep some stuff back to recover fast (1 or 2 turns). If I owned Pithing Needle it would be in the board just for this. Game 2 you have Aura of Silence to stop Deed. It's not much, but this matchup isn't a problem if you play around Deed.

Landstill: You'll end up scooping. This match is profoundly difficult. They're manabase is designed to work with Wasteland and Crucible. They have Engineered Explosives that can be set up to 4, and Academy Ruins to recur it. Eternal Dragon helps then with land problems and between Standstill, Force of Will, Fact of Fiction, Counterspell etc, you won't be resolving anything useful. This deck is almost tailored to beat Stax. Pray, draw and hope for the best. When sideboarding you need all the pressure you can put on the board. They'll probably side out Humility.
Dreadnought Variants: Sometimes Ghostly Prison is an out for a while here, or Moat. Just hope you resolve something. Play your spells expecting them to get countered, and play like you're not losing.
+3 Aura of Silence, +3 Damping Matrix; -4 Smokestack, -2 Armageddon

Sligh: This is a lot harder than it first appears. With the right cards you can keep them off mana and unable to attack with their creatures. Watch out for burn spells that plink away at your life. Chalice and Trinisphere are great here, set Chalice at 1 or 2, base your choice on what they're already played. Prison and Moat stop their creatures from attacking, Geddon will win you the game. Occasionally they'll draw good and crush you faster than you can handle. If they resolve Grim Lavamancer make sure you have a plan.
Everything in the board can come in except Aura. Make the decision based on what you see game 1, and if you've seen your opponent play before and know his/her sideboard strategy.

Ichorid: Kind of a win or lose situation here. Accelerate into Ghostly Prison, even mulligan into it. Trinisphere works well here. Setting Chalice at 1 to stop Breakthrough is useful, but they can still play Cabal Therapy by sacrificing creatures. They don't get the spell, but they get the triggers. Post board you have more cards that stop them from playing stuff. If you've made it to turn 3 and you have 3-Sphere, Sphere of Resistance or Prison down you're in good shape.
+1 Trinisphere, +3 Sphere of Resistance; -4 Smokestack

Mono Red Burn: Easy. Chalice, 3-Sphere or whatever can get you enough time to land Angel or something until you can resolve Armageddon. If they're using Ankh of Mishra watch that you don't do something dumb and lose on accident. Unless you play stupidly you should win 2-0. Post board not a lot changes, you can bring in Sphere of Resistance if you want.
+1 Trinisphere, +3 Sphere of Resistance, -4 Ghostly Prison

Enchantress: I don't have a lot of experience with this. 'Chantress craps out a lot of stuff fast, making Smokestack pretty bad. A friend of mine familiar with both of these decks says it favors Stax. Feel free to add info. I guess the games would go long, and that favors Stax quite a bit. Post board bringing in Aura and Runed Halo are your best bets.
+3 Aura of Silence, +2 Runed Halo; -4 Ghostly Prison, -1 Moat

Storm Combo: No matter what the build, you have the tools to win. 3-sphere, Chalice, Armageddon. Be aggressive with Factory and your creatures and you should win. Post board they might have Rebuild so win fast.
+3 Sphere of Resistance, +2 Runed Halo, +2 Aura of Silence, +1 Trinisphere; -4 Ghostly Prison, -1 Moat, -1 Kor Haven, -1 Smokestack, -1 Crucible of Worlds

Painter Variants: I never see these decks in my local metagame. I'll probably put 1 Blessing in the board come Grand Prix. Bring in Aura, Halo and Damping Matrix. Maybe Humility. Chalice at 1 or 2 is good.
+2 Runed Halo, +3 Aura of Silence, +3 Damping Matrix; -whatever isn't relevant.

Survival: This is hard. Their creature toolbox can deal with anything you throw out there. They can keep up on permanents. They'll get Rofellos, Birds and Genesis back Harmonic Sliver while Loxodon Hierarch kills you. Board in Damping Matrix, Aura and Humility.
+3 Humility, +3 Aura of Silence, +3 Damping Matrix; -4 Smokestack, -3 Trinisphere, -1 Armageddon, -1 Crucible of Worlds

The Fear/Loam Variants: These can be troublesome, but you have options. Setting Chalice at 2 will stop Life from the Loam, Burning Wish, Devastating Dreams and Ancient Grudge. Originally I only realized Loam. This match shouldn't be that hard. Know when to play Armageddon. Sideboarding should include Humility and Runed Halo.
+3 Humility, +2 Runed Halo; -3 Trinisphere, -1 Smokestack, -1 Ghost Quarter

Affinity Builds: They can't deal with Ghostly Prison or Moat game 1. Armageddon is crucial, this deck has no lands. Trinisphere is important but Chalice can go. Post Board you get goodies like Aura, Damping Matrix. If you feel you need them bring in Humility, Sphere of Resistance and Runed Halo. This match isn't that hard.
+3 Damping Matrix, +3 Aura of Silence; -4 Chalice of the Void, -2 Smokestack

Lands.dec: Play against this like Loam shells. Chalice at 2 shuts off their engine. Moat stops some stuff. Use the Armageddons wisely. Kill Maze of Ith or this match will take forever and you'll draw 0-0.
+3 Aura of Silence, +2 Runed Halo; -3 Trinisphere, -2 Smokestack

That's the gist of it. Correctly analyzing wether you are the control deck or the aggro deck is the most important call you'll make in any match. Usually you are the control deck, the pressure is on your opponent to win. Play your cards to ensure they don't. In some cases (Like Landstill) you need to win faster than your opponent. Keep aggressive hands and go for the throat. This deck doesn't have many unfavorable matchups, and playing well can improve your chances of winning significantly.

[Jaiminho]

Enchantress: I don't have a lot of experience with this. 'Chantress craps out a lot of stuff fast, making Smokestack pretty bad. A friend of mine familiar with both of these decks says it favors Stax. Feel free to add info. I guess the games would go long, and that favors Stax quite a bit. Post board bringing in Aura and Runed Halo are your best bets.
+3 Aura of Silence, +2 Runed Halo; -4 Ghostly Prison, -1 Moat

This is far from being true. Enchantress doesn't care about much Stax does. It has lots of acceleration, protection against Armageddon and the entire deck is made of permanents. The deck by itself already neutralizes the effects of Trinisphere, Chalice (almost entirely), Prison and Smokestack without doing anything. With this deck's very slow clock, it isn't in position of threatening Enchantress' game except by playing Armaggeddon, for which the deck has lots of answers. One of them is saving lands and auras in hand for a quick return while drawing cards and the others are Karmic Justic (a total of 3 post-board, plus the 4 Groves) and Sacred Ground. Most builds also play Chrome Mox, making Geddon even worse.

As a comparison, Dragon Stompy also doesn't have means to deal with Enchantress' engine, aside from Anarchy (if the opponent is unprepared) or a lucky Pyroclasm (if there are no Presences to support the required draw). It's only chance is to estabilish an early clock and pray that Chalice might slow the opponent down for just enough time. Stax isn't able to set this clock and the disruption is the same as far as the interaction with Enchantress is concerned.

As far as your sideboarding goes, there's not much you can do. Runed Halo won't do much, since there will be 3+ artifact/enchantment/permanent hate cards on the other side and they are able to draw/fetch everything they need and then kill you, with no need to rush. Humility shuts half of their engine down and makes Mesa tokens non-flyers (minor importance). It should come in this match, even though the lack of a clock caused by it will probably give them enough time to do their thing.

[Patrick]

This is far from being true. Enchantress doesn't care about much Stax does. It has lots of acceleration, protection against Armageddon and the entire deck is made of permanents. The deck by itself already neutralizes the effects of Trinisphere, Chalice (almost entirely), Prison and Smokestack without doing anything. With this deck's very slow clock, it isn't in position of threatening Enchantress' game except by playing Armaggeddon, for which the deck has lots of answers. One of them is saving lands and auras in hand for a quick return while drawing cards and the others are Karmic Justic (a total of 3 post-board, plus the 4 Groves) and Sacred Ground. Most builds also play Chrome Mox, making Geddon even worse.

As a comparison, Dragon Stompy also doesn't have means to deal with Enchantress' engine, aside from Anarchy (if the opponent is unprepared) or a lucky Pyroclasm (if there are no Presences to support the required draw). It's only chance is to estabilish an early clock and pray that Chalice might slow the opponent down for just enough time. Stax isn't able to set this clock and the disruption is the same as far as the interaction with Enchantress is concerned.

As far as your sideboarding goes, there's not much you can do. Runed Halo won't do much, since there will be 3+ artifact/enchantment/permanent hate cards on the other side and they are able to draw/fetch everything they need and then kill you, with no need to rush. Humility shuts half of their engine down and makes Mesa tokens non-flyers (minor importance). It should come in this match, even though the lack of a clock caused by it will probably give them enough time to do their thing.

Like I said, I don't have a lot of experience with this. One time I was playing Enchantress and I beat a Stax deck. Sacred Ground was the bomb, and I had a million turns to do whatever.

Also, I suggested Runed Halo because you can name Words of War with it. I realize that Aura just comes out of the graveyard with Replenish and ruins your shit. I'm pretty sure Stax loses this but my friend has had the opposite luck. Likewise, when I beat the Stax deck it was close. He had survived for a while, and his Wastelands were able to keep me from going ape-shit with Serra's Sanctum. I don't know what to do in the Stax players position, but it's not unwinnable.

[igoticecream]

This is the deck list i have been using since Shards comes out... i still use the armaggedon-stax essence. Sorry for my english :tongue:

Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Horizon Canopy
7 Plains

Creatures:
2 Exalted Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Spells:
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Armageddon
2 Oblivion Ring

Sideboard:
1 Trinisphere
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Defense Grid
2 Aura of Silence
3 Karmic Justice
3 Suppression Field
1 Rule of Law


Mana accelerator:

Mana accelerator is an import piece of the lock on this deck, so using 4 ancient tomb, 4 mox diamond and 4 city of traitors it is going to cover this aspect.
Why a 4 ancient tomb? i have been thinking on putting 3 instead and put a kor haven (tombstalker scare me =D), this maybe fuck your game in early-game if you don't have more lands to play or a crucible.

Lands:

Flagestone of trokair: Godly with armaggedon and smokestack, i'll go with 3 since they are legendary, also works great with smokestack on play
Wasteland: Mana denial, 3 of then will do the work and better with a crucible of worlds on the table
Mishra's Factory: Godly on this deck, it can block tarmos and piledriver, since we do not have a lot of blockers and in case the opponent paid the prison, works good too with crucible of worlds. 3 of them because i need space for the next land
Horizon Canopy: Any good deck need a draw engine, this is my solution, once again, another land synergy with crucible
Plains: 7 of them, we just need at least WW in play for play all the deck

Lock:

Armaggedon: Haven't you see the face of the opponent at mid-game when you play this card? 4 of them
Smokestack: This is card most of the games makes you win, so scary card and much more when you drop an armaggedon on the table... so 4 of them
Chalice of the void: C'mon 4 of them, its just slow your opponent and most of times makes opponent run out of any solution.
Trinisphere: Slow-motion mode ON for opponent, synergic with smokestack on play, i have made lot of times player cannot do anything after an armaggedon with smokestack of 1, also Ad Nauseam Storm deck and others storm deck get fucked. The reason i have put 3 on the list is because at mid-game trinisphere is most of time useless, if you know which deck are you playing, considere use 4
Ghostly prison: Makes your opponnet pay more and more for do thing, this time with this card make opponnents pay for attack.

Creatures:

Exalted Angel: End the game fast, fix the damage dealt by ancient tomb, Sligh decks, Zoo, etc. I use 2 of them because i need to do the lock first.
Magus Of The Tabernacle: Great blocker, great mana denial, with ghstly prison it's a chaos for opponent. 3 of them.
Elspeth, Kinght-Errant: Dude, i just love this card, help me to raise and keep somkestack 3-turn with 3 soot counters sacrificing: token + flagestone + random land with crucible. Angel/tarnacle/mishra's gets +3+3 and flying. Armaggedon, Pernicious deed, Engineered explosives is not a worry anymore.

Removal:

Oblivon Ring: I can't play a deck with removal, i see 3 or 4 of this one a lot, this is for an unhandled pernicious or tombstalker, etc.

Sideboard:

Trinisphere: Just in case you need 4 of them
Tormod's crypt: There is so many Ichorid decks in my metagme.
Defense Grid: This deck have bad matchups with MUC deck style, countering a final lock piece is not fun.
Aura of silence: Great disenchant, screw affiny and it's not affected by your Chalice of the void (if you do Chalice of the void of 3, please play another deck xD). Enchantress deck? use this card.
Karmic Justice: Stax deck can be screwed with a simple pernicious deed, so drop this on table and see if your opponnent love to see their lands going to graveyard.
Suppresion field: More mana denial.
Rule of Law: Storm deck do nothing.

Please, any commentary or critic will be accepted with respect.

[Arsenal]

I'd never run less than 4 Flagstones. They're great in multiples, and they are lifesavers after a naked Armageddon. Why are you guys running less than 4?

[Mordel]

I have been running three and it hasn't come up yet. Sometimes they are annoying to draw multiples of when I would rather get a plain out, as opposed to playing a second copy that mills two tapped plains out of my deck. Pass on that one.

I also run three geddons and four smokers in my build. Not as many geddons and I have three Elspeths to help support smokers.

[Skeggi]

I'd never run less than 4 Flagstones. They're great in multiples, and they are lifesavers after a naked Armageddon. Why are you guys running less than 4?

For instance: in your opening hand you have: Flagstone, Flagstone, Smokestack, Ancient Tomb, Chalice, Trinisphere, Armageddon.

First turn play is probably Ancient Tomb, Chalice@1.
Second turn you draw another Smokestack for instance. You drop a Flagstones and a Trinisphere.
Third turn you draw another Chalice. You want to drop your Smokestack or Armageddon or Chalice@2 now depending on the situation. But you can't, because you only have 3 mana; if you drop your second Flagstones, you'll have two tapped plains. That way you have to wait another turn to get the next spell out, which no doubt you will need; in fact, if you need to play the Armageddon, you've already thinned your deck and lost the Flagstones ability before you can play it. Same goes with Smokestack by the way.

This situation does not occur alot, but isn't uncommon. When it does occur, it might cost you the game. The situation occurs alot less with 3 Flagstones instead of 4.

Also, when using Crucible + Flagstones to keep Smokestack @ 2, you want as many Plains in your deck as you can get. Switching the fourth Flagstones for a Plains is a good option.

edit:
@Patrick and igoticecream: both your lists look pretty solid. Any adaptations would be very meta and personal choice dependant. Only testing in your meta can improve your deck, I don't think random advice from people in a different meta. Although igoticecream's list does look a bit more random with the 1-of Elspeth; I'd probably make this a Magus, and I'm not a fan of Karmic Justice nor Suppression Field. If you want to stop Pernicious Deed, Pithing Needle has proven more useful to me. Suppression Field also slows down your Wastelands, Mishra's Factory, Aura of Silence, Tormod's Crypt, Horizon Canopy and Elspeth.

[Arsenal]

Are you really going to hypotheticals now, with double Flagstones in opening 7 and double Smokestack in opening 8, to discredit running 4 Flagstones? REALLY?

[Skeggi]

Are you really going to hypotheticals now, with double Flagstones in opening 7, to discredit running 4 Flagstones? REALLY?

There are also often hands where you keep an Ancient Tomb, Flagstones and hope you'll draw an extra Plains, and then have it turn it out to be a Flagstones. But yes, really. They're not that great in multiples, why would you say that? The only reason I can immagine is deckthinning. And that's REALLY not a good reason. You just need to draw 1 Flagstones. You don't want that second Flagstones.

[Arsenal]

There are also often hands where you keep an Ancient Tomb, Flagstones and hope you'll draw an extra Plains, and then have it turn it out to be a Flagstones. But yes, really. They're not that great in multiples, why would you say that? Because it thins the deck? Are you going to hypotheticals now, with deckthinning using a second Flagstones? REALLY?

Please quote where I said "because it thins the deck".

I don't know what your build looks like, so having WW available to you ASAP may be important (Moat, Elsepth, etc), but I don't play a single WW spell in my 75, so no, I rarely hope that I get Ancient Tomb + Flagstones + Plains. If I was running Moat, Elsepth, etc. and I needed 2WW available to me asap, then I could understand, but with my build, it's never been a problem running 4 Flagstones.

[Skeggi]

Well, the only reason I can think of why anyone would think of Flagstones would be great in multiples is because of thinning. If you have one out, you generally don't want another one.

My build is a couple of posts back, in my tournament report. Yes, I do need the double white alot more than other builds, but even in my old build (also no WW) I used 3 Flagstones. I'm just answering your question: 'Why are you guys running less than 4?'. If you think the answer is BS, fine. But these are the reasons why I run 3 and not 4.

Running 4 Flagstones isn't necesarily a problem. I just feel 3 is more balanced.

edit; I've edited that post right after I posted it...you reply fast lol :)

[Arsenal]

Multiple Flagstones, played early, can help you immensely versus Moon Effects and B2B (MUC being one of our more unfavorable matchups). If I know my opponent has 6-8 Moon effects (standard DS maindeck) or is running 4x B2B (standard MUC), I'm going to want as many Flagstones as early as possible so that I can actually draw out 2-3 Plains before my opponent resolves something stupid like that. If I get them afterwards, then the point is moot, but I've at least given myself a realistic shot at getting guaranteed multiple basic lands so that I can manuever.

[Skeggi]

That's odd, because of Blood Moon and Back to Basics, I now run more Plains. You do know Flagstones does nothing under a Moon? Well, produce :r:...and also doesn't untap under B2B until you draw a second? I'd rather have the Plains.

This is my current manabase:

1 Kor Haven
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
8 Plains
1 Plateau
3 Flagstones of Trokair

That's 8 basic Plains to deal with Moons and B2B (if you prefer Defense Grid over Boil you can drop the Plateau). Nonbasics I usually pitch to Mox if I can.

[Arsenal]

That's odd, because of Blood Moon and Back to Basics, I now run more Plains. You do know Flagstones does nothing under a Moon? Well, produce :r:...and also doesn't untap under B2B until you draw a second? I'd rather have the Plains.

This is my current manabase:

1 Kor Haven
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
8 Plains
1 Plateau
3 Flagstones of Trokair

That's 8 basic Plains to deal with Moons and B2B (if you prefer Defense Grid over Boil you can drop the Plateau). Nonbasics I usually pitch to Mox if I can.

I already know that Flagstones are dead under a Moon:


If I get them afterwards, then the point is moot, but I've at least given myself a realistic shot at getting guaranteed multiple basic lands so that I can manuever.

And based off of your decklist, plus your statments re: your need for WW as early as possivle (Moat, Elsepth, etc) you're running 8 Plains due to your dependence on having WW ASAP, not because of Moons. My deck needs W to operate, the rest can be Mountains/nonbasics, etc. I run 5 Plains, 4 Flagstones (which early, played multiples will guarantee me having at least one W to work with), and 4 Mox Diamond. 13 W sources for a deck that doesn't run any WW in it's 75 has worked fine for me. I really don't understand, in decks not running an WW spells, why you'd want less than 4 Flagstones.

[Skeggi]

The second reason I gave: when using Crucible + Flagstones to keep Smokestack @ 2, you need as many Plains as possible. 1 Flagstone less means 1 Plains extra, means 1 extra turn of Smokestack @ 2.

[Arsenal]

The second reason I gave: when using Crucible + Flagstones to keep Smokestack @ 2, you need as many Plains as possible. 1 Flagstone less means 1 Plains extra, means 1 extra turn of Smokestack @ 2.

Because we are running two completely different builds, you might have an active Smoketack @ 2 more often than I do. In fact, with Elspeth, I would almost guarantee you do run active Stacks @ 2 more than I do. I very rarely up my Smokestack to 2 soot counters, and the few times I have, I don't keep it active for more than 2 turns; it's just not how my deck works. In fact, I only run 3 Smokestack as my meta is slower, with virtually no fast aggro, but mostly mid-range stuff.

In my build, Smokestack @ 2 means almost nothing, and having WW available to me means even less. So I suppose our disagreement is stemming from the builds we run.

[chokin]

Since we're arguing about manabases, I'll throw mine out there.

9 Plains
2 Flagstones
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Tabernacle
3 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
__//25 Land

I only own 2 Flagstones right now (skipped out on a 3rd because it wasn't Russian and I wanted it to match). I run Tabernacle because of the heavy aggro field I play in. 3 Wastes are because there are like 2 decks that play heavy non-basics.

I also run 1 Eternal Dragon. It's nice for deck thinning, making sure I hit land drops and also plays as a finisher since I only run 3 Magi and Factories as beats, focusing on locking people down. I'd play Angels (Battlegrace was an interesting attempt for a replacement) if I could afford it, but right now I can't which is also why I don't have Moat or Kor Haven (they're cheap, but I'm totally broke).

In my eyes, Flagstones is good and bad. I see both sides of the arguments. I'm content with 2. I could see running 3. I don't think I'd run 4 though just because I like making my land drops.

BTW Horizon Canopy is awesomeness.

[Mordel]

Less than three flagstones is terrible. I would go into details, but reasons are present throughout this thread. A deck being optimal is more important than vanity imo.

Also, in regards to the ongoing debate about not running four flagstones: I have run into the issue of not being able to curve out to four mana because of two flagstones and not plains or anything else for that matter a number of times. In fact, more than my fair share and I still run into it now and again with three. It is extremely annoying and has cost me the game. Removing one may not match someone's needs if they are playing an armageddon-focused variant maybe, but personally, I am testing the variant of the deck that has moats and humilities in it, which are fucking crucial a lot of the time. I want my four mana on turn three as consistently as possible.

Most things can be broken down into black and white, but in this regard it is a grey area because 1-arguing about different builds 2-arguing about preference more than optimality in all honesty, as far as I am concerned.

[Arsenal]

Are you talking about 4 mana, or 2WW by turn 3? Because that's a huge difference imo, and is largely dependant upon what build you're running. I can definitely see how, in your build, 2WW by turn 3 is required. In my build, 2WW isn't going to make or break me at all. As long as I have 4 mana, of any configuration, I'm usually okay.

[Patrick]

As seen in my build, I run 3 Flagstones. When I decided I was going to start playing Stax, I got 4 copies and had them all in there. Arguments can be made on both sides, it's uncommon that you'll draw 2 of them and that will make you lose the game. It's also uncommon that you'll be completely unaffected by having 2 in your hand, the only situation I can see it pitching one to a Mox, which is what I do with only 3 in the deck. There are going to be many more times when having 2 Flagstones at the same times prevents you from making the best play provided one of those lands was a basic plains. Even if you already have Crucible down playing a second Flagstones is often the same as skipping a land drop, unless you really need the double white or an additional mana source. While it won't make you lose the game, it often will put you behind on turns, something Stax can rarely afford.

[Mordel]

I hear you for sure, Arsenal on the standard build running fine with four and when I ran it myself, I rarely if ever ran into issues even when I had to play one as my third land drop. It was never an issue actually.

Maybe I wasn't reading things right, but when I was looking at what Skeggi was saying, I am pretty sure he is talking about a similar build to mine that needs 2ww on turn three consistantly in many games.

[Patrick]

I hear you for sure, Arsenal on the standard build running fine with four and when I ran it myself, I rarely if ever ran into issues even when I had to play one as my third land drop. It was never an issue actually.

Maybe I wasn't reading things right, but when I was looking at what Skeggi was saying, I am pretty sure he is talking about a similar build to mine that needs 2ww on turn three consistantly in many games.

I'm fairly certain that the only debates left in the manabase are A) How many 2-mana lands do you run and B) Maze of Ith, Kor Haven or Tabernacle. This other list that's popped up, Dutch Stax, may want to see itself moved to a different thread. While it's similar, it's a very different deck. With the Humility, Moat and Elspeth in the main, and the removal of things like Magus and Prison it's almost as though two discussions are going on. The necessity of needing WW early in the game seems to be a hot topic even though the lists are drastically different.

[Arsenal]

2-mana lands:

4 Ancient Tomb (non-debateable)
3 City of Traitors (minimum), you can go 4/4 and all will be well too

Kor Haven, Maze, Tabernacle, Horizon Canopy, etc seems to be meta dependant, and are not 100% vital to Stax's success.

However, out off all those nonbasic lands, I find Horizon Canopy to be the most interesting as Stax's greatest weakness is zero draw/dig.

[Captain Hammer]

Given the below post, why isn't 4 Suppression Field an automatic 4 of in this deck. Yes, we would have to cut a few cards, but it seems like the cards cut are worth the powerlevel of Suppression Field.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
For the past few months, i've been trying to work around a deck that could abuse the power of Suppression Field.
Namig a list of cards that it hurts like hell:
Goblins: Fetches, Wasteland, Port, Vial, Mogg Fanatic, Siege-gang, Sharpshooter, and some others;
Threshold: Fetches, Sensei's Divining Top, EE, Fledgling Dragon;
Ichorid: Putrid Imp, Cephalid Colesium;
Goyf Sligh: Grim Lavamancer, Figure of Destiny, Fetches;
Lanstill: Jace Beleren, Fetches,Wasteland, Academy Ruins , Mishra's Factory, Nantuko Monestary, Pernicious Deed;
Dreadstill: Lands, EE, Sensei's Divining Top;
Agroo Loam: Seismic Assault, EE, Lands;
Survival: Mainly, Survival of the Fittest;
ANT: Fetches;
Belcher: Belcher;

The list could go on and on, including other cards like Jitte and all other equipaments, other lands, STE, Sacred Mesa, Nantuko Shade, morph dudes...

Well, with that in mind, I knew the deck could not suport (obviously) none of the cards above. I also wanted to be able to drop Suppression Field turn 1; to have ways to dig for enchantaments; to have a decent kill condition.
So, with no further adue, here's the recent decklist I'm developing:

23 - Plains

2 - Eternal Dragon

4 - Suppression Field
4 - Chrome Mox
3 - Mox Diamond
4 - Idyllic Tutor
3 - Enlightened Tutor
1 - Moat
1 - Ghostly Prision
3 - Oblivion Ring
3 - Endless Horizons
2 - Goblin Charbelcher
1 - Circle of Protection: Red
1 - Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 - Wrath of God
2 - Swords to Plowshers

SB:
4 - Orim's Chant
3 - Abeyance
2 - Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 - Wing Shards
4 - Chalice of the Void

[Mordel]

Wow, that's like...Mighty Quinn, but tutors up the ass.

[Arsenal]

Why on earth would you run Suppression Field over Pithing Needle? Everything Suppression Field does, Pithing Needle does better, and for 1 colorless mana (might be important to decks that are hungry for WWWW).

And I know it's not the slight dissynergy with CotV @ 1 & Pithing Needle because, (a.) Needle's raw power is equivalent to CotV @ 1's raw power, and (b.) it's not like we never CotV @ 2.

I'd run Needle before Field anyday of the week and twice on Sundays.

[Mordel]

Twice on sunday?! Dayumn...lol

I actually run neither, right now and am rocking null rod right now. All I see are tops, EEs,LEDs and other more random stuff. I haven't seen a deed in a long time. I used to run needles, but I found myself siding them in and opting to play chalices early more often than them and the needles, which are completely awesome never getting played.

I'd probably replace the rods with needles for a big tourney though, I guess.
What do you find yourself naming with the needles most of the time? Deeds and seals and what else?

Not being sardonic or whatever, I am just curious what you find yourself naming.

[Patrick]

I'm currently deciding what to use in the board: 3x Damping Matrix or 3x Pithing Needle.

In the red corner Damping Matrix effects every artifact and randomly stops some creatures too. Damping Matrix wrecks Affinity (which I know is a bad deck) and splashes a lot of other decks.

In the blue corner Pithing Needle stops cards like Deed, Survival of the Fittest and whatever else you want. Costing :1: rather than :3: means it's always there when you want it. The biggest problems with this are Chalice@1 and the price of Pithing Needles.

[chokin]

I have to agree that Needle > Suppression Field. Field answers multiple things, but it doesn't stop them from doing it, only from going nuts with it like SDT, Survival, etc. Even though it lacks synergy with CotV, it basically gives you more powerful first turn plays like Arsenal was getting at.

[Noman Peopled]

Matrix and Needle shouldn't really compete for the same spot unless there's very little Deed/Survival/etc in your metagame.
Needle shuts down a card that is without a doubt in the Top Five Of Cards That Hurt Stax (Deed). And also another one (EE).
Matrix shuts down only one and is of little secondary use. It can't name Wastes, fetchies, Ports, Vial, Survival, Seismic Ass, manlands, cycling trigger stuff, etc. If creature abilities are a problem, there should be a Humility in there somewhere anyway.

Note that this doesn't mean you can't play Matrix without being dumb. If you see little to no XBG (no Deeds) and/or Loam and can deal with everything else (Humility vs Survival, enough hate against Gobs and what-have-you), but EE gives you grief, I don't see why not (although unless your meta is completely missing combo, I'd try Rod first; it doesn't have the added benefit of also being a worse Totem, but it stops mana abilities (raping Affinity much more thoroughly) and shuts down ten to twelve cards in any fast combo deck I'm familar with).

[Luca_Girolami]

After Armageddon Field > Needle.

After some testing I don't agree that Needle is more effective than Field:
- Needle cannot exist with CotV@1. CotV is more effective than Needle. No way.
- Artifact hate is a common side option. Enchantment ones less a lot.
- Stax limits opponents resourches. In many cases, spending :2: means "cannot be played". It's the same reason why I run a playset of Ghostly Prison.
- Who can afford :2: to play each ability generally runs City of Traitors, Ancient Tomb and other multiple-mana lands. They're the perfect target for my Wasteland.

Pure theory says that Needle > Field. I decided to play 3 Field in side. I don't feel that Needles are lacking. Really.

[ykpon]

as for me field seems better in spite of needle can stop abilities forever or until they destroy it. but ok, these cards are so different.. especially in old geddon stax, not in that new three-4mana-cards-combo one.

needle is an answer for our opponent's threats - deed, assault and some others. and field plays another role - it just locks ur opponent down while needle just helps us not to lose against some specific cards.

just geddon? ur opponent will possibly get some lands and kill u.
field+geddon? no more fetches, top, cards with cycling. its difficult for him to get his lands. oops, looks like i won.

goblins? say good bye to mire, foothills, wasteland, port, incinerator, vial, fanatic, siege-gang, tinkerer, kiki-jiki. can u name all these cards with needles? no.

survival? even here i prefer fields. if he pays 2G for sur he loses a turn. if he loses some turns then he possibly loses the game. agains stax he always needs more mana. for playing sur's ability, for paying fo tabernacle, for sacrificing deed, for attacking with prison in play. and u help him shutting down his fetches and vials also.

geddon seems to be a main card of the deck. and field has a great synergy with it like prison, magus and trinisphere does. if i expect a lot of deeds and another activated abilities which i really care about i will maybe play needles in my sb.
in addition to fields.

[Arsenal]

I can't believe that people are really trying to use Armageddon as a reason to run Field over Needle. Great, in order for Field to be really good (up to the same level as Needle's power), you need another card. Awesome.

I've run Field in the past, and often times, it merely slowed my opponent down, but ultimately didn't stop what I needed it to stop. Sometimes it bought me enough time to draw into additional lock pieces, sometimes it didn't. With Needle, you stop the problematic card, PERIOD. No need for another card to make it good, it just is by itself.

And I call bullshit on the people who are whining about CotV + Needle. Have you even tested it yet? Do you not understand that Armageddon Stax also sets CotV at, gasp, 2?!?!?!? OMG. Dissynergy, how dare you.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

I participated in a tournament on Wednesday, and I was not happy with the results.

I played A version on this thread called SkeggiStax. I ran Humility and Moat over Magus and Ghostly Prison. I see the arguement that Moat is better than Ghostly Prison, because Moat stops them, when Ghostly Prison just slows them down. When I first hopped on this thread, I exchanged Suppression Field with Needle, and Started to transform the deck into a different type of Stax.

My first point is that although a lot of people on this forum do Not like Suppression Field, Suppression Field Fits in the deck, along with Magus of the Tabernacle and Ghostly Prison. These three cards lock out the opponents mana, unlike Needle, Moat, and Humility. One of the main points of the deck is the Armageddon effect. With the new build, I lost the advantage to drop a turn 1 Suppression Field, or the turn 2 MotT. I think the advantage to lock down their mana is at a better advantage to the Stax Player. Does anybody second this opinion?

I know In my meta, There is a lot of Thresh, T. America, Boros, Enchantress, Combo, Aggro Loam, Landstill, and Stompy decks. Suppression Field works so much better against all of the decks (maybe not combo). I know the whole "Well You should Adjust your deck to what your meta is." But what I realize is that these are the main decks in the format, the "Decks to Beat." I think this deck is getting worse as the days go by (Not trying to start anything Skeggi, Mordel, and Arsenal). Does Moat really work that much better for you guys?

[Arsenal]

In the Dutch Stax builds, Armageddon isn't as pivotal as it is in traditional builds; you'll notice that in some Dutch Stax lists, Armageddon is cut to 3 while in traditional builds, people run as many as 5 Armageddon effects. So perhaps you were approaching the role of card incorrectly.

Armageddon Stax is mostly about resource denial, with some elements of flatout "No, you cannot" mixed in. Dutch Stax appears to move away from resource denial of favor of straight up, "Hahaha, sure you can cast it, but you can't really do anything useful with it".

Btw, I run the traditional Armageddon Stax build w/o Angels.

[Mordel]

Moat and humility work extremely well for me, hence why I run the new build...kind of a strange question to ask.

[Skeggi]

Does Moat really work that much better for you guys?

Yes it does :smile:. I'm not trying to convince everyone that DutchStax is 'the better stax' to play. Apparently this doesn't work for you, but as far as I can see, I think I wouldn't have had a problem with your meta (all matches are favourable to DutchStax except Enchantress and Landstill, but same goes for the traditional list). It's odd to see you find otherwise.

About Suppression Field vs. Pithing Needle. In DutchStax this is no discussion. As we use less Armageddons, Pithing Needle wins from Suppression Field. In the traditional list, with 5 geddon effects, the balance shifts. I myself used Suppression Field back then, but wasn't a fan because it slowed down my Factories and Wastelands, and often people could still play the stuff they really needed. So I was hesitant to side them in.

[ykpon]

About Suppression Field vs. Pithing Needle. In DutchStax this is no discussion. As we use less Armageddons, Pithing Needle wins from Suppression Field. In the traditional list, with 5 geddon effects, the balance shifts.
looks like true. mb there should be even 2 different threads for these decks coz old stax is just a geddon.dec while dutch stax seems to be a next evolution of white control decks like rabid wombat.

anyway i can get only 1 moat so i play a classic version and have some questions about it:
should i play that moat as the 5th prison in main deck or in sideboard. against decks like goblins i need a prison as fast as i can get it so moat can help me not to mulligan into it. on the other hand 2WW cost can be difficult to pay in the early game. windborn muse is easier to cast but also its easier to kill, especially without field in play. sphere of law is good but doesnt stop piledrivers. what do u use as an additional answer for agrodecks?

also what do u side out against goblins? my usual choice is -smokestacks -chalices +fields +spheres of law/muses +4th magus. but i noticed i often win g1 and lose after sb, dunno why..

UPD: did u see this? http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22030

[DeathScythe]

as far as I heard the japanese didn't win a single match in team play, this could be due to him not playing the deck good (you get to see him play a bit during semi's) or the deck being not being optimal (3 E tutors? say what?)

[jjjoness']

His list was quite bad, as he didn't play any card to actually use his early game disruption. What's a chalice and Trinisphere in play when you have nothing to actually lock your opponent or finish him off? I think playing at least 3 Smokestacks is crucial. I mean, if you do not run the full Staxx shell, then you have to play some other lock peaces such as moat, or additional beaters. 3 isn't enough for a deck that can hardly maintain a hardlock. Also he played like..eh really really bad.
And yeah, 4 Flagstones and only 4 Plains doesnt sound like a good plan either.

[Mordel]

As far as I am concerned the Japanese completely surprised me with the fail that is the list I saw on deckcheck. The manabase looked so bad. Three dustbowls on top of four wastelands is overkill.

The manabase is honestly what made me cringe the most. The tutors with the presence of needing to CotV for one more often than you will be able to cast them seems like a really poor choice. Based off of what I saw in the other decklists, he would have had a nicer time rocking moats and humilities...

[Skeggi]

UPD: did u see this? http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22030

Like the other guys said; this must be the worst Stax list ever to be released into existence. There are precon decks better than that pile of shite.

About running Moat in your maindeck next to 4 Ghostly Prisons; if you have a high aggro meta, I would advise to run it.

[Patrick]

Agree @ the Moat comments. If you're expecting a lot of aggro the 5th prison effect is good. Stax can improve it's chances of winning significantly if you metagame right. This can be said about any deck, but Stax is a deck that plays cards specifically to disrupt the opponent, rather than win the game quickly.

[f|i[p]]

@ the japanese stax deck

I dont think the japanese deck is a pile of shit. I think it focused more on the land destruction and taxing route more than the other stax lists. It could have also been that their metagame was floating with dual lands. The only thing I don't understand is having 3 magus of the tabernacles and 2 smokestack. Although he has 3 tutors main deck which could have replaced smokestack. Having soo few win conditions in the first game may pose a problem.

Im actually quite interested in testing enlightened tutors in the deck. Although it has been assumed very bad for the deck itself, it may however prove to help out in the long run.

Dust bowls were an interesting choice, I don't think its overkill at all. But I definitely wouldnt go to 3 dustbowls, I would probably go to 2..

[trollwarrior_666]

@Flip, it is a terrible Stax list. Starting with the manabase:
4 Flagstones with only 4 Plains is bad because you usually won't have any Plains to fetch. 4 Waste + 3 Dust Bowl is overkill, you could try to replace your Wasteland with Bowl, but Waste is probably better in most cases.
No Factories, it's a decent blocker and win condition. Now he relies on Magus beatdown or outdecking his opponent (wich is not a good strategy).
3 Enlightened Tutor, one of Stax's strongest plays is T1 Chalice @1 because it disrupts so many decks. 3 ETutor means that you either have 3 dead cards (which is bad), or you won't set your Chalice @1 (not playing Chalice @1 is also stupid against most decks). There are very few cards with CMC 1 Stax wants to play, and ETutor is not one of them (I can only think of Pithing Needle or Goblin Welder).
The list is just terrible, and if you don't realise that you should test a decent list more often to become familiar with Stax' strenghts and weaknesses.

[f|i[p]]

The mana base is indeed terrible in some ways, All I said, is that it wasn't a pile of shit. It focused on a different approach. I personally wouldn't run 4 flagstones as I have always felt comfortable with 3. I would have probably taken off 1 dustbowl and 1 flagstones and added 2 plains,which would have given him 6 plains to fetch with 3 flagstones.Horizon canopy I'm not sure about as I have never tested it at all but can always be replaced with more plains.

@factories
No factories? if you think they are essential to the deck, you are definitely wrong. They are decent blockers but aren't necessarily vital to the decks strategy. I have seen other more experienced players who don't play factories at all.

@ magus beat down
Magus beat down has actually won me a lot of games, a whole lot more than factory beat down won me any. I have always considered magus as a 4 of and never less. These can vary from player to player however.

As for the tutor, it has been dismissed so many times before, But If I were to run these, I would definitely not run 3. 2 pcs for testing sounds good enough. Yes it does have conflict with chalice at 1. But you also have to consider that you don't always have chalice or have it set at 1, and it won't always get through as you would like it to. Tutor although a little slow, would normally get what you need at a certain moment.

These are my points of view on the deck that took top 8,that nobody is willing to even look at its good points, or how it even got to top 8.The bad points are easy to spot,but you also have to learn to spot the good points. It maybe bad in a sense, but you can't just throw it out dismiss it as a pile of crap, as no matter what you say, it took top 8 in a major tournament and worked for the player.

If you want to take the old lists and not even dare to innovate or even have an open mind about a different approach. Go ahead.



The list is just terrible, and if you don't realise that you should test a decent list more often to become familiar with Stax' strenghts and weaknesses.

As for you accusing me of not being able to play with a decent list or being familiar with stax's strengths and weaknesses. I have played this deck for a long time, even as it was being developed from angel stax to armageddon stax, I was already testing and building the deck. So don't go around accusing people of what they know and don't know. I know quite a lot about the deck down to its core. This deck is the type that you don't just pick up and play, it takes time and experience to learn and even be good at it.

I try to stay open minded all the time for tweaks and new options,even if it was dismissed before.

[Skeggi]

That deck is terrible and there is no point in defending it by saying it got into the final 4: this deck hasn't won any match in the tournament. It got this high because his teammates did very well in Standard and Extended.

[Fred Bear]

There is also no point in arguing that a deck played by a top magic player is or should be considered 'terrible'. He was at a table playing what he obviousy considered to be a solid version, and no one else (short of him) can even come close to saying they played White Stax in the top 4 of the Team Worlds Competition (outside of side events).

He made a lot of non-standard choices - given. But the choices he made are not without foundation.

I have not persued the Moat/Humility/Elspeth deck because it a) doesn't fit my playstyle and b) would require me to buy a lot of overly expensive cards that does not fit with my current family plans (I am actually largely retiring from constructed and will be selling off my collection as time permits). The last deck that I was testing was close to this...

Lands (25)
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
8 Plains

Creatures (3)
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

Enchantments (7)
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring

Artifacts (19)
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond

Sorceries (5)
3 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War

Instants (1)
1 Enlightened Tutor

Sideboard (15)
3 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Powder Keg
3 Sphere of Law
2 Exalted Angel

The list is the basic Stax list that I have played since Lorwyn (Oblivion Ring) came out. I typically have 2 slots to play with and the build above fills them with 1x Oblivion Ring and 1x Enlightened Tutor. The sideboard contains generally decent cards and I metagame heavily with my board (I have stuff like Suppression Field, Guardian of the Guildpact, etc. sleeved and ready to go based on what I expect. I also have probably 7-10 versions saved on MWS that I can audible into for testing, etc.).

I tried 2 Enlightened Tutors main, but was never really comfortable with the second one. I rotated it in taking out 1x Magus, 1x Trinisphere, 1x Oblivion Ring, or 1x Smokestack. I just couldn't find room that I was comfortable with across the board. Suffice it to say, I was very happy with it as a 1-of and I absolutely HATE playing 1-ofs. I'm ok with it because Enlightened Tutor does not play like a 1-of in this deck, it's the 4th- or 5th-of for everything we play. I'm not going to going into great detail, but Chalice at 1 negating 1 card is well worth the risk to essentially play 5 Crucibles, let alone anything else.

To further comment on the Japanese build, I can see making a case for Dust Bowl in his build and in the World's Meta as well (that's not to say that I agree with the choice). I had overlooked my notes (used to generate the post on page 33) from when I tested Dust Bowl, but I concluded that a) it's not another Wasteland, b) it's only good with Crucible out, and c) simply put, it's inefficient compared to other options (i.e. Ravages). The way I tend to build... I start playing 4 copies... b) says I don't want this without another 4-of, so cut 1 down to 3 (odds say I'll get the other card first)... a) implies that I don't want to see it as often as Wasteland, so cut 1 down to 2... c) says play 0-1 (I choose 0 and go with a more 'stable' mana base). In Takakuwa's build, he plays '7' Crucibles and 4 Wasteland, so my a) and b) guidelines will result in playing a max of 3. I think the error is that Dust Bowl is just too inefficient for what it does. I'd be interested to hear how many times he actually activated it. My guess would be that the Japanese expected a legacy meta which relied on tight mana curves and lots of non-basic color-fixing.

These are just my basic thoughts on this. It's easy to prove that a list is different, but very difficult to prove a list is good/bad. I think f|i[p] has the right idea, try to learn from 'why' something is done. And then look to see why it does/doesn't work based on testing. Simple dismissal never results in innovation.

-FB...

[ykpon]

yesterday i've played in an about 30 people legacy tourney and made top 8. i runned basic geddon stax with exalted angels but with 3 enlightened tutors sb apart from cards which were usually used. i decided it could be nice decision against two popular decks in my meta: goblins (i dont need chalices that much but i need prison as fast as i can) and naseaum tendrils (i need something like trinisphere or sphere of resistance very early and its always better to have multiple copies of such things). but i met neither goblins nor tes this time so i cant say a lot about efficiency of tutors yet.
btw i've beaten trinity, team america and sliver fish in swiss and then id'ed with dredge and ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (positive mathups anyway) so got into top8 without any losses. then i started playing with team america again but was somehow repaired to the fear deck. first game was mine if i got one geddon in about 35 cards. but ok, i didnt. second game was made by 2 deeds. u know, nothing can help if u've let ur opponent resolve and sac 2 deeds.. so 0-2 and mb i should already add some needles to my sb. but what i'm absolutely sure about is that i must buy ravages of war as fast as i can get it. while geddon seems to be a main card of a traditional list i think it should be at least 5 of or mb even 6 of. during nearly all the games i played with stax i was waiting for geddon. and u know, some decks let u wait and some ones doesnt.



also what do u think about running 1-2 nomad stadiums? not needed very much mb but still nice sinergy with crucible which can help sometimes.

[Shawon]

You need Threshold for Nomad Stadium. Not worth it. Horizon Canopy is way way better. On that note, 2 Horizon Canopy has been working out well for me. Seriously, it helps you find your lock pieces/Elspeth much faster. Play 2.

[Wereodile]

I really have no right posting this as I have never really tested this deck out (I lack quite a few cards from this list) but I have recently become interested in Stax in all of it's various incarnations. Please let me know what you think about this list.

I thought splashing green may be half decent as it allows access to Krosan Grip and Garruk. If Elspeth and Garruk get online I could see that spelling trouble for just about anyone. I am not sure about the sideboard at all.


G/W Stax

//Land// - 26

6x Plains
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Flagstones of Trokair
4x Wasteland
4x Savannah
3x City of Traitors
1x Horizon Canopy


//Spells// - 34

4x Armageddon
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Mox Diamond
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Ghostly Prison
2x Humility
2x Smokestack
1x Enlightened Tutor


//Sideboard// - 15

4x Exalted Angel - Maybe Tarmogoyf?
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Krosan Grip
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Aura of Silence
1x Rule of Law

[Shawon]

@Wereodile

Assuming, like you said, you haven't tested the deck, let me tell you that for White Stax, it's hard enough to get WW. I could understand a light splash for Green, but you're using Garruk? I highly doubt you can get to GG consistently. Unless you don't want to keep the deck mostly White Stax, I'd recommend cutting Garruk right away. With that said, considering the only other green card you run is Krosan Grip, I just think that you should cut Green altogether (don't cut Horizon Canopy, actually MD 2, they're good).

4 Wasteland is way overkill. You run Armageddon and you run Smokestack. 2-3 Wasteland should be fine.

If you're running Ghostly Prison, you should really complement it with Magus of the Tabernacle (and The Tabernacle), otherwise, you should just cut the Prisons for 3-4 Moat, which you should do since you're running Elspeth and I think the Moat+Humility+Elspeth plan is the way to go.

[Shawon]

I don't know about you guys, but disregarding specific metagames, I think the Elspeth+Moat(+Humility) builds are the way to go. Elspeth, to date, has been the most efficient kill condition in white Stax I've ever seen. It's token ability which is awesome with Smokestack is alone enough to consider adding Elspeth. While Exalted ANgel has been one of the deck's premier kill conditions, it retained its spot only because it could realistically end the game soon quick enough to beat the time limit. Other than that, while not a bad card, EA doesn't really interact with the deck as much as Elspeth, and you need the interactions Elspeth has with the deck. Besides, Elspeth's pump ability can help end the game just as quick as Angel can. The fact that we already have access to Moat and Humility makes the addition of Elspeth even more fitting.

Here's a list that I've been working on ever since I got back home for Winter Break (last 2 days):

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [TE] Wasteland
2 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
8 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
1 [NE] Kor Haven

// Planeswalkers
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
2 [TE] Humility
2 [P3] Ravages of War
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [LG] Moat
2 [4E] Armageddon
4 [US] Smokestack
4 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [RAV] Suppression Field
SB: 4 [9E] Defense Grid
SB: 2 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [REW] Powder Keg

I don't want to bore anyone by explaining the obvious card choices, but regarding those obvious inclusions, I would like to talk about the numbers of those cards.

For example, traditionally, Stax builds run 3 City of Traitors. I used to follow suit, but I'm really firm that the deck wants to churn out Turn 1 Chalices/3Balls, so I think the 4th City is needed (as well as 4th 3ball for those of you who run 3).

I know I harped on this before, but 2 Horizon Canopy are an absolute must. For a deck like Stax that has two opponents (opponent himself, and the time limit), you can't rely on topdecking to find your win conditions, even if you aren't losing or you have a lock. Horizon Canopy gets you there, 'nuff said.

The sideboard is pretty experimental, but I've made some observations. I think 4 Defense Grid is a must against what I consider our worst matchups, any U-control deck. Plus, it complements your strategy against Threshold which is resolve either Chalice or 3Ball.

I used to run 4 Fields, but I think that's a little excessive as you don't need the off chance of landing 2 down. You're Stax, so even with just one Field, your deck can do the rest and lock the opponent. So I think 2-3 should be fine.

I think 3 Tormod's Crypt is just right. Against Ichorid, you have CotV, 3 BaLL, and freakin' Moat/Humility. You'll be fine with just 3.

I'm unsure of the rest. I have the 3rd Ring in sb because it seems like a safe call. I'm not sure of Aura/Powder Keg. These slots are the most questionable.

So, what do you guys think? Is this build a positive direction in the build of Stax?

[Atwa]

Hey guys.

I've only recently started to get interest in the whole Geddon Stax deck. For starters to play around with, I've build up this list:

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
3x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Mishra’s Factory
7x Plains
3x Wasteland

3x Exalted Angel
3x Magus of the Tabernacle

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Mox Diamond
4x Smokestack
3x Trinisphere
4x Ghostly Prison
2x Oblivion Ring
4x Armageddon

Sideboard:
3x Defense Grid
2x Pithing Needle
3x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Trinisphere
3x Aura of Silence
2x Rule of Law
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Before I start testing, do you guys see any errors in this list? Keep in mind I haven't tuned it at all, not to my meta or to my personal playing style, this is just a rough first draft. Any help would be really appreciated.

[Shawon]

@Atwa:

If you're going on the Magus-Prison route, you want to up your Geddon count, that is, add 1 Ravages of War. Yeah, it's expensive IRL, but if you're playing on MWS, you want 5 Geddons. You could do 6, but prior experience recorded in the previous pages says that 5 is the best number for a Magus build. I'm a fan of the Elspeth build, but when I ran the Magus build, I considered Geddon the best card in the deck. It's your biggest bomb.

Past Magus builds ran 3 Smokestack. Nothing wrong with 4, but you might want 3, since your Prison strategy is your main strategy and you should make the space for that 4th Geddon.

Overall I'd make these changes:

-1 Smokestack
-1 Wasteland

+1 Ravages of War
+1 Horizon Canopy

Those are my sure changes. Consider a 4th 3Ball, or 4th Flagstones. Regardless, for either build, 2 Horizon Canopy = Win.

[Atwa]

Thanks for the advise. I was planning on playing this deck IRL, and since I've recently already bought a Tabernacle and a bunch Judge foils, I won't be able to get a hold on a Ravages of War for the first couple of months. I was already planning on putting one in the deck, but I guess I'll have to play a crippled version first :)

Is Canopy really that good that you would trade in a Wasteland in for it? I once played Sun Tower for a while and the Wastelands were golden in that deck. Granted, it didn't play Geddon since it's R/G, but still. I'll need to test that.

Note that I play the 4th Trini in the side for matchups I need it in. I might which that spot with the 4th Smokestack though, I'm not sure how that would work out.

[Citrus-God]

Thanks for the advise. I was planning on playing this deck IRL, and since I've recently already bought a Tabernacle and a bunch Judge foils, I won't be able to get a hold on a Ravages of War for the first couple of months. I was already planning on putting one in the deck, but I guess I'll have to play a crippled version first :)

Is Canopy really that good that you would trade in a Wasteland in for it? I once played Sun Tower for a while and the Wastelands were golden in that deck. Granted, it didn't play Geddon since it's R/G, but still. I'll need to test that.

Note that I play the 4th Trini in the side for matchups I need it in. I might which that spot with the 4th Smokestack though, I'm not sure how that would work out.

You should still play Wastelands over Canopy. Besides that, Canopy is kinda terrible in Stax. Once you get CoW active, you should be disrupting. Wasteland is good for that pre-CoW and post-CoW.

[f|i[p]]

@Wereodile

If you are really bent on splashing green, I have played with a green splash for quite sometime. Testing and tweaking, it seems to be always missing something or maybe it was just because I was so used to playing white stax.

I could however inform you on things I have tried, Life from the loam, sylvan library,words of wilding, solitary confienemnt, and dueling grounds .

Garruk would have been awesome but there isn't any way to get double green easily.

I had a list that had confinement, loam engine,cycle lands,humility, and dueling grounds to assure elspeths protection and late game power. The other had the library, words of wilding combo. As this not seem to belong to this thread just PM me if you are really interested in trying to make it work.


@wasteland

I normally play 4 wastelands(2 factories) and,never really saw that having 4 wastelands as overkill, This however will depend on the metagame, my metagame uses a lot of duals, and each wasteland i throw in help me make a quicker lock.

@ fredbear

I was actually bent on testing enlightened tutor as well. I only have 1 copy now but will start testing it as a 2 of for starters. I am also inclined on trying/testing to leave exalted angels on the side and tend to focus more on the lock.

[Wereodile]

@Wereodile

Assuming, like you said, you haven't tested the deck, let me tell you that for White Stax, it's hard enough to get WW. I could understand a light splash for Green, but you're using Garruk? I highly doubt you can get to GG consistently. Unless you don't want to keep the deck mostly White Stax, I'd recommend cutting Garruk right away. With that said, considering the only other green card you run is Krosan Grip, I just think that you should cut Green altogether (don't cut Horizon Canopy, actually MD 2, they're good).

4 Wasteland is way overkill. You run Armageddon and you run Smokestack. 2-3 Wasteland should be fine.

If you're running Ghostly Prison, you should really complement it with Magus of the Tabernacle (and The Tabernacle), otherwise, you should just cut the Prisons for 3-4 Moat, which you should do since you're running Elspeth and I think the Moat+Humility+Elspeth plan is the way to go.



Thanks! I do think that Moat/Humility/Elspeth will become the foundation for Stax in the future. Christmas is coming so I am going to be looking to get this deck together!

Thanks as well flip I am going to take another look at the splash. IS anyone having success with a Red splash for Ajani?

[Shawon]

You should still play Wastelands over Canopy. Besides that, Canopy is kinda terrible in Stax. Once you get CoW active, you should be disrupting. Wasteland is good for that pre-CoW and post-CoW.

I don't think it's a matter of choosing one card over the other. Both Wasteland and Canopy are good in Stax. I'm just saying that one Wasteland should be cut for Canopy. There's not much use in 3 Wasteland. You only need one active Wasteland with CoW in play, having multiple Wasteland in play/gy isn't that useful. Same with Canopy, and I'm saying one Canopy isn't going to cut it.

[Arsenal]

I'm still unclear as to what advantages Dutch Stax has over Armageddon Stax. What matchups does Dutch Stax make more favorable compared to Armageddon Stax? What matchups does Dutch Stax make unfavorable compared to Armageddon Stax? What matchups remain even?

If Dutch Stax makes our bad matchups more manageable, while not sacrificing anything in our already even-favorable matchups, then awesome, but I haven't seen any clear evidence that A > B in Matchup X or vice versa.

[f|i[p]]

@ arsenal,

If you go a few pages back, there were a lot of arguments about match ups. Dutch stax is gets a better match up against stompy decks or decks that want to attack with just 1-2 creatures who tend to get around ghostly prisons. Humility by itself would make creatures 1/1 thus making it easy to block with factories. Moat by itself will shut down goyfs, and goblins. There are lots of improvement and a few problems as well. Dutch stax in my testing was generally stronger in a way that didn't rely too much on synergy and their anti aggro route was generally stronger in a sense.It also had the ability to shutdown creatures with abilities that survival players tend to abuse. I think we also have a better shot at dreadstill where dreadnaught would normally trample on magus, even with ghostly prison around. The problem I saw was the way dutch stax dealt with creature permanents and it had a slower win condition. But no matter, I think its all in a matter of playstlye, dutch stax is strong as well as armageddon stax. All dutch has to do now is prove itself in tournaments and make its own thread as I actually think the deck is different in what it really wants to achieve.

[Arsenal]

But couldn't Armageddon shore up their weakness to single threats by maindecking Oblivion Ring? I run 4x Oblivion Ring in my main (in addition to the standard Ghostly Prison/Magus/etc), and I haven't been too many problems with low/single threat decks.

EDIT: That came out wrong. I'm not implying that by adding Oblivion Rings, you'll have no more problems with single threat decks, but I was trying to use Oblivion Ring as a reasonable example/card that can help Armageddon Stax's weakness to single threats. There are other cards that can help out the single threat gameplan too. Again, I haven't seen any clear evidence as to what matchups Dutch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Armageddon in.

[Shawon]

Again, I haven't seen any clear evidence as to what matchups Dutch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Armageddon in.

Frankly, I don't know which deck has better matchups against the modern meta. I simply think that 'Dutch Stax' is functionally better than Armageddon Stax, but of course, that opinion can be taken with a grain of salt since I don't have any testing to back that opinion. I definitely have more fun with this build, though.

=========================================================

After some testing, I've changed up the sideboard:

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [4E] Armageddon
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [RAV] Suppression Field
SB: 4 [9E] Defense Grid
SB: 2 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [REW] Powder Keg

I really like having 5 Geddon effects, but sadly it's not worth it MD. However, Geddon is one of your best bombs against Landstill, as well as 40+land.dec, so I have a Geddon in my sb to complement the four MD when I need them.

I haven't tested Aura/Powder Keg much. I added Powder Keg since it seemed better than other card that I was 'iffy' about adding. Perhaps Aura of Silence might be the weakest link in the sb. Haven't sb'd it in yet.

Incidentally, I've been testing against Merfolk, as many of the randoms on MWS play Legacy Merfolk. The matchup is pretty tough. It's not unwinnable, but the matchup seems to be in their favor. I don't know about you guys, but Daze SUCKs. Playing around it isn't that bad, but still, it costs you time and gives your opp an extra turn of beats. Bright side is, if you can sense Daze, you only have to worry about Force of Will so you can resolve stuff. Here's my sb plan against them:

-4 Geddon effects
-3 Smokestack

+4 Defense Grid
+2 Powder Keg
+1 Oblivion Ring

Typically against U decks, you want to cast Turn 1 CotV@1. Merfolk is an exception. Despite the fact they run Vial, they only run Cursecatcher and Vial as 1 drops. Try for your life to cast CotV@2.

Generally, the plan is to try to drop Moat/Humility and protect it. From observation of Merfolk sbs, they only have bounce in the form of ETruth and Rushing River, and they'll bring that against you to stop Moat from ruining their day. A preemptive Chalice stops this, of course CotV@3 is harder to pull off.

[Skeggi]

There is also no point in arguing that a deck played by a top magic player is or should be considered 'terrible'. He was at a table playing what he obviousy considered to be a solid version, and no one else (short of him) can even come close to saying they played White Stax in the top 4 of the Team Worlds Competition (outside of side events).

<snip>

Simple dismissal never results in innovation.


Get off your high horse Fred, alot of options including Dust Bowl and various numbers of Enlightened Tutors were tested and discussed in this thread. It's not simple dismissal, the guy was playing a list we knew wouldn't get anywhere. Also, 1 guy at World's tried to Stifle Landstill's trigger. I think that says something about the level of Legacy played at World's as well. I'm not saying they all suck, I'm just saying it's not such a high level you might expect.

[Fred Bear]

Get off your high horse Fred, alot of options including Dust Bowl and various numbers of Enlightened Tutors were tested and discussed in this thread. It's not simple dismissal, the guy was playing a list we knew wouldn't get anywhere. Also, 1 guy at World's tried to Stifle Landstill's trigger. I think that says something about the level of Legacy played at World's as well. I'm not saying they all suck, I'm just saying it's not such a high level you might expect.

It's not a high horse, Skeggi, it's simply a belief that there's more to it than just saying 'it sucks' and moving on. It's too easy to do that on the internet.

[Sidebar] Look at the number of posts that tell you just that something was tried, dismissed, and thrown in the junk bin. Those posts never tell you why. Hell, most of those posts are made second-hand or as hearsay, really, and aren't even from the people who tested them. [end sidebar]

You're right to say that not all players at Worlds are high quality, but the 'typical' standard evaluation is a high finish at a 'top-level' event. Like it or not, that's the list that will get talked about (I didn't see our thread mentioned in Flores' article).

The fact of the matter is that when you delve into the 'why' you have to do actual work and nobody wants to share that (with anyone other than teammates). If you try to answer the 'why' for the World's deck, it's pretty simple - there's a better way to do it. The lists that we have posted previously are more efficient and accomplish the goals faster and easier. His list doesn't 'suck', per se, it's just built more because he assumed he>other players and that would make up for the deck's inherent inefficiencies.

That brings me to another point... The 'Dutch' Stax build. It too is a 'good' version of Stax, but simply not the most effecient to use any of the key cards... Seriously, if you want to play Humility, I would immediately look at the Landstill work Nightmare did a while back (there's a Starcity article somewhere). Humility + Nantuko Monastery is awesome. In a deck with lots of search and draw and you have a reliable deck, that can fix bad draws and win when ready. I would be interested to learn if anyone has tried tossing Elspeth into that deck since a flying 7/7 first striker becomes a quick finisher. (Landstill + Humility > Trinisphere + Humility). Moat would be 10x better if you could find it faster, so why not play Enchantress where you can play 5+ copies with all the search, have access to a ton of cheap draw to cycle into a version of it, and have a way to get it back from the graveyard when it's removed? Again, Moat's not a bad card and it's very good against much of the meta, but Stax isn't able to use it most efficiently. (8 Draw Effects + 4 Search + Moat > Moat + Trinisphere).

This is not to say that there isn't synergy when you combine Moat, Humilty, and Elspeth - there obviously is.

In my testing, Armageddon Stax has a slighty-positive - to - positive match-up against aggro decks (Goblins, etc. - basically anything that plans to attack with 3+ creatures a turn). Combo decks fall into the same category as aggro being generally positive (TES, etc. - you lose to the nuts and players who are expecting you - sometimes). The match-up is 'a hair'-below-even - to - 'a hair'-above-even against aggro-control (Threshold variations, etc. - these games most often come down to playskill and match-up familiarity). The match-up vs control is poor (MUC, Landstill, etc. - card advantage > virtual card advantage). There are a host of other decks that span certain gaps, most Stompy variations fall into the aggro-control category. Enchantress is typically a control deck. Survival is very build dependant and can fall into any of the general categories. Black Control is typically draw dependant and will either play out as aggro or control. Loam, for me, has always fallen into the aggro-control bucket. 'Lone Wolf'-type strategies can fall into either aggro-control or control depending on the build. Remember, when I say that a match-up is positive, we are probably looking at ~60% (meaning you will still lose 4 in 10 times). A poor match-up is probably around ~30% (meaning you will still win 3 in 10 times). And the error bars are probably on the order of 3-5% for build variation, familiarity of match-up, and playskill.

In my evaluation of Dutch Stax, I am looking for an improvement to control, obviously. I haven't seen it. The aggro match-up is still good-to-slightly improved, combo is a little worse, but still positive, aggro-control is basically unchanged-to- a build-dependent positive shift. Control is basically unchanged. There are some specific match-up improvements, but I haven't tested enough to quantify how much of an improvement. I have found that most of the those match-up improvements are very draw dependent, i.e. Survival is improved if Humility is in play - not so much without it. I have not seen enough of an improvement to justify switching (and as I've said, life has decided that I probably wouldn't even I did see it). It boils down to playstyle, card availability, etc. One is simply not 'better' than the other based on my testing and evaluation.

The bottom line is that Stax is very customizable when the meta is defined. That was how Stax initially evolved. If you have a defined meta, you should set up your build of Stax to punish that meta. If you are entering an undefined meta, a case could be made for a number of different set-ups.

-FB...

[Mordel]

I personally considered the Japanese version of the deck to be jank because it uses countless innovations that were idividually considered to be terrible under one roof. That seems crazy to me. I guess he was going for fast bombs or something like that? His build went against every rule I have read in sixty pages of strategy.

I hate to ask because I am a bit out of the loop at the moment perhaps, but Fred, what decks are you considering control?

Obviously landstill and such, but what about muc and dreadstill? I have found that the Dutch Stax match with these decks is notably better. Perhaps the pilots I have encountered have been grossly innadequate or something?

You may have shit on a variation of the norm in a more wordy way, but you still took a shit on it. I think the strengths of the variation have been excruciatingly emphasized. The lists haven't shown up on deckcheck as far as I know and that is sort of irksome, but the variant is sort of prohibitive due to moats, which has been mentioned a few times in passing.

I honestly have am not really sure what you mean exactly with "unchanged-to- a build-dependent positive shift"...you're talking about a deviation in the norm: obviously any gain or loss in efficacy is going to be related to the build...isn't it?

It has also been explicitly(as far as I am concerned anyway) discussed and mentioned in passing that the build has emerged because of people wanting to have an improved match against tombstalkers, goyfs and shit holding swords. In the majority of aggro matches that I have played, the matches are basically the same as the original more accessible builds and the match against the three things mentioned has improved vastly. I have played against goblins numerous times and it is actually possible for me to lose against goblins, while in the traditional build it is almost impossible.

So I agree with you quite a bit there.

Disregard the above if I completely misunderstood what you said, but it was stated in a sort of odd way, so sorry if I got it wrong =/

What I would really, really like to see with the archetype period is a better combo match.

One thing that is sort of funny with this thread is that there is very little that is actually said aside from people that want feedback on a build that looks almost the exact same as any other list that has been made aside from a sideboard, which they should honestly be able to figure out themselves. Maybe that is just me. The shit drives me nuts. In lots of cases people might as well just read more prior pages and just type "bump".

Please note the irony if you haven't already picked up on it with this reply.

[Fred Bear]

Mordel,

I am considering Landstill and MUC as 'control'. Dreadstill will play out as either control or aggro-control depending on how they play it and what you draw. There are several other decks which can play control depending on their draw. Personally, I have NOT seen as great an improvement in any of these matches with Dutch Stax as others have reported. [Note - This never comes across on message boards, but I am not calling anyone a liar or trying to disprove what has been said. I am simply stating what I have seen in my own testing.] The Armageddon Stax list that I am comparing Dutch Stax to plays 3 O-Ring in the main, though, which may be atypical. So, based I what I have personally seen, if an improvement exists, it is minimal at best.

When I talk about 'build-dependant' results, I am mostly referring to how well an opponent's deck does against artifacts/enchantments with its main deck. I have played against several Threshold builds with Tygon Predator main (non-standard and much tougher for Stax), the same can be said for Landstill decks which still maintain Disenchants, or Survival decks with more than 1-2 artifact/enchantment haters. I point out stuff like that because these variations are very common in some metas. In general, though, you want to relate gains and losses in effeciency to changes in your own deck. Many people choose to either ignore their opponents variants or simply lump it into the bulk data. This will skew your testing results. By realizing that there are variants to match-ups which play differently than the genera match-up, you can better prepare and improve the match-up.

Again, I have seen minor improvement in aggro match-ups with the Dutch Stax build (I'm guessing that with extensive testing it would be on the order of ~3-5% improvement). But against decks which can (and will eventually) play their control options first, I have seen no 'measurable' improvement (i.e. if there is an improvement it is <3%).

I think where I may be confusing people is that there are several match-ups that play differently depending on the opponent's draw. If a typically 'control' opponent keeps an 'aggressive' hand, the game plays much differently. I think (and maybe this is a big assumption) that we have all had these experiences... a double 'Goyf opening from Threshold or double Daze double Force opening... Turn 2 Dreadnought or turn 2 Landstill... Turn 1 Lackey or turn 1 Port... I feel like we are better off classifying these openings and how the game actually plays rather than just lumping it together in the general match-up. Maybe I'm wrong, but learning to deal with a turn 2 Dreadnought is much different than dealing with a turn 2 Landstill and when a single deck has both options, I feel that we need to be able to distinguish the variations to our gameplan.

I don't know if I picked up on your irony, sorry if I missed it.

-FB..

[Mordel]

Thank you for the clarification. The irony I mentioned was that I complained about people not really saying anything much on this thread, while saying still saying something all the same and that is largely what I said.

In a lot of my testing humility and moat have been functionally the same card. The early standstill scenario that you mention must be only difficult with good players or is stated as a contrast to early 'naughts, as in easy to difficult.

Either way, I respect your opinion on just about all things 'geddon stax, so don't feel like what you say about the minor effects of any tweaks the archetype has seen in the Dutch variants have been lost on me. When I get back home, I am going to make sure to test original builds a fair amount too now, rather than just the moat/humility builds.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

So I was at this tournament on December 28th. Team Meandeck arranged it, and I played the list I posted a few pages back, and I was very impressed with the results.

Round 1
I believe his name is Colem on this site. I had no Idea what he was playing, so I went in blind. He played a swamp, followed by a Top. I thought "Doomsday", So I casted trinisphere turn 1. From that point, He played a Trop, and Between 3Sphere and Suppression Field, He didnt play anything else, until I killed him. The Trop threw out my Idea of Doomsday, and sure enough, game 2, I died a very painful death to Ad Nauseum.
Game 3 I didnt see a 3Sphere, but I saw CoTV for 0, which gave me about...... 15 turns. He had ancient grudges In his yard, but All he saw was fetchlands. Lucky for "onebigsquirrelgod," I still Run Suppression Field. So with 2 Fields, chalice, Ghostly Prisons, and Runed Halo's naming Tendrils, I was in an alright position. So turn 23-24, I see Magus of the Tabernacle. So I start swinging. I get him down to around 12 life, when somehow he got enough land available to cast Ad Nauseum. and He revealed a lot of 1-2 CC, until he revealed Ill Gotten Gains, which took him down to 1, so he had to stop, but even killing Chalice, he had to deal with Runed Halo, so I got him the Game after.

Recap:
Suppression Field helped me out against Doomsday Tendrils Iggy Nauseum Deck. Runed Halo Prevented him from killing me game 3, and Suppression Field helped me keep him off lands. With the Discussions from Before with Dutch/Armageddon Stax, If I had Moat Over Ghostly Prison, The game state wouldnt have changed, but If I had Humility over Suppression Field, I would have Lost Game 3.

1-0-0

Match 2

The first Game was about 30 minutes long. His Name was Brian, from Team Meandeck. I'm not sure of his alias on the site, but he won the tournament after you factor in the Tiebreakers. I got Trinisphere out, and he had Back to Basics. I started with plenty of land, so , so BtB didn't hurt at all. It was a U/W control Deck, with Meloku, Mulldrifter, and Isochrons. He called a Judge, because he didn't believe me that Trinisphere add's to Isochron, but after getting Smokestax on the board, The game just slid over into my hands. So between S. Field, Trinisphere and the late, late Crucible, I got game 1. Game 2 He saw a lot of countermagic (6 Spells), so it really hurt. I thought I lured out all of it, and at EOT I attempted to Oblation his Crucible, but He countered that. Afterwards, I ended up Armageddonning about 3 times to slow him down until I saw a way out. Well he got Mulldrifter out, so he beat me with a Mulldrifter. So 43 Minutes into the match, I think he said to himself, "Well, I guess I just have to kill him with creatures fast." Game three I started going crazy, and once I lost the elspeth, I realized I was gonna die, but luckily I had Ghostly Prison out, which he had gotten me down to 8, and Time was called, so he said Go. At that Point, I casted Ravages of War , and He only had 4 mana open. So He attemped to Force it, but Lucky for me, I added Defense Grid to my sideboard, So he needed to pay 6. It was a great game, and I was very happy with the draw.

1-0-1

Match 3

42 Lands, I have 6 Armageddons main Board. I got game 1, because of Suppression Field. Game two went sour with the two K. Grips, 2 Ray's, and 3 Ancient Grudges. Game three we went to time, and He wouldve killed me, but Ravages of War is expensive for a reason :smile: . So at that point, It was I'd have to go X-0 at that point if I wanted to make top 8. the 42 land deck was one of my best friends, and I knew how much he wanted it, So I just gave it to him (call me crazy). So 1-1-1.

Match 4

Mono white stompy with jitte. Another friend of mine. I won game 1, with Smokestax and Ghostly Prison. Game 2, I dropped turn 2 Prison, But he casts Patricia's Scorn for free. Then I Cast another Prison, but with the Chrome Mox, It's hard to destroy the land base to the point to Geddon-Win. He held land back, and just swung with the Soltari Priest w/ SoF/I. Game 3, double Prison again. 1 creature, I cast Ghostly Prison. Patricia's scorn, creature 2. I cast prison, he casts O-Ring, takes it, and just beats me senseless. I play with Vince a lot, and I'm the only reason he plays 4 Scorn's in his sideboard is because of me :mad: . So I'm still trying to perfect that matchup.

1-2-1

Match 5
Swan Thresh. I played around Daze like a wolverine, landed the Ghostly Prison, and the big part of game 1 was the turn 1 Suppression Field. Double Goose late game was not enough to do anything, since I had gotten Crucible. Game two was a breeze, with double Runed Halo, Double Ghostly Prison, and Elspeth. pOwned.

2-2-1

Match 6

Affinity. I was a little worried going into the game, but the deck wasn't as explosive as I thought it would be. The Deck had Ornithopters, Glimmervoids, Stifles, Tarmogoyfs. I don't like giving results when the games aren't a challenge and things to learn from. I won, the End.

3-2-1

I am very impressed with how the deck worked last night. I think I am actually going to take Elspeth out of the Deck, and Go back to Angel. I agree that Dutch and Armageddon are two completely different decks. Defense Grid Really helps against blue, and I really appreciate the recommendation for that card. For the deck I'm running, I'm keeping Suppression Field. It works Smooth in the deck, and I feel it won me more games last night that any other card in the deck (maybe not the Armageddons, but...).

[_erbs_]

Hello,
I just want to share. We had a year ending 10k legacy tournament at our place, to bad f|i[p] wasn't able to join as his friend told us that he was late in waking up hahaha.

There where 40 participants i think. I'll jsut make my post short, as the previous post was about tournament aswell.

The Meta was :
- Red (Burn & Goblin) heavy around 90%.
- Land deck
- Countersliver grrrr i lost bec of it
- ITF
- Black (control aggro)
- Affinity
- Stompy (blue, white, green vairants)
- Black Green (Rock and Flase Cure)

I finished at the top after swiss but lost to the number 8 player who was playing meathooks. I felt satisfied after the tournament eventhough i didn't won, cause all of my last legacy tournys i had a bad win loss record then again maybe its bec of the meta.

The Champ of the tounament was Black Green Control and the runner up was Black Green aggro-control-false cure deck.

I piloted Geddonstax:

4 Ancient Tomb
2 Crystal Vein
2 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Mishra’s Factory
3 Wasteland
8 Plains
4 Mox Diamond
4 Armageddon
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Smokestack
3 Crucible of worlds
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the void
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Exalted Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
1 Elspeth Knight Errant

SB:
3 Sphere of Law
3 Spehere of resistance
2 Tormonds Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pithing Needle
3 Aura of silence

[Captain Hammer]

Crystal Vein is interesting.

Do you like it better than City of Traitors?

This decks plays lots of land past turn two even, so I guess it makes sense to play in place of City.

Does anyone else have any opinion on the 2/2 City/Vein split. It seems worth trying for sure.

[Benie Bederios]

Crystal Vein is interesting.

Do you like it better than City of Traitors?

This decks plays lots of land past turn two even, so I guess it makes sense to play in place of City.

Does anyone else have any opinion on the 2/2 City/Vein split. It seems worth trying for sure.

Crystal Veins is clearly weaker in the early turns. City of Traiters can tap for 4 mana in 2 turns, Veins only for 3. Later in the game it doesn't make to much different. The majority of the time City is better.

BB

[Skeggi]

Crystal Vein was one of the 2 mana lands named by Machinus in the opening post. It got dropped for the reason Benie mentioned.

[ykpon]

what manabases are u satisfied with? personally i run 4 wastelands, 4 flagstones, 4 tombs and 4 cities. also 4 factories + 5 plains if i dont play angels and 2-3 factories + 6-7 plains if i do. the only troubles i have with it are with multiple cities. but i dont want to cut it to 3 because i think not getting 3 mana turn 1-2 is worse. i've never even tried playing veins, canopies, dust bowls, nomad stadiums and other lands i sometimes see in ur decklists. should i?

btw what do u think about Chapin's combostax?
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22542

[Shawon]

I like the 'combo' take on Stax. Very intriguing. I'm glad he's MDing 2 Canopies :)

A few concerns, though:

I don't like the 2 Dustbowl. I understand the synergies (including saccing Flagstones), but I just think Dustbowl costs way too much mana for its effect to be worth in the 75 - period. I'd rather use 2 Ghost Quarter, but personally, I would just cut them for Mishra's Factory.

I think 4 Wasteland is a bit extreme, but it's just a personal gripe. He's running 26 land so the 4 Wastelands are a acceptable. Personally, I would go -2 Dustbowl -1 Wasteland for +3 Mishra's Factory. Even if you have Moat, the fact that you have Crucible + Factory for a strong defense needs to be included in the deck.

Other than that, the deck looks set up nicely. I don't like Ghostly Prison (I prefer Moat/Humility), but at that point either Prison/Moat/Humility are acceptable.

So, overall, the deck looks pretty cool. I'm beginning to think that Spheres are becoming more customary for Stax sideboards. It's perhaps better than Suppression Field. Perhaps Sphere becomes more useful with respect to the lands you use in the deck. The deck has 26 lands, so it makes Sphere a little more onesided.

One last thing. I don't get the 1-of Academy Ruins. I can only conclude two reasons for using Academy Ruins, either of which could be true:

1) Using Ruins to 'Waste' the opponent's Ruins. If that's true, then that's a meta call.
2) Having Ruins, and then paying for Ruins using Mox Diamond. Enlightened Tutor facilitates this strategy.

Seems a little iffy, but again, I don't test this variation of Stax.

Bravo!

[Captain Hammer]

This seems like the wrong deck to squeeze the Leyline + Helm combo into.

Neither Leyline nor Helm help with the deck's strategy of playing defense or locking down an opponent.

It's going to have a tough time getting the BB to hardcast Leyline, and the deck really shouldn't be mulliganing aggressively to get a Leyline.

Enlightened Tutor has poor synergy with Chalice since Chalice will often be going down for 1. The deck would have to pick between playing Enlightened Tutor, or playing Chalice of the Void.

So...

a.) I wouldn't play any combo in this deck.

b.) If I really wanted to play the Leyline + Helm combo, I would build Demon Stompy and fit it into that. Both pieces would be completely and easily hardcastable in the deck. As a bonus, black likely has access to tutors that don't have poor synergy with Chalice.

c.) If I really wanted to play a combo in this deck, I would forget about playing Chalice at one altogether and try either the Stuffy Doll + Guilty Concience combo or the Painter's Servant + Grindstone combo. Of these two, the Stuffy Doll combo sounds more appealing just because both pieces are decent defensive cards on their own, even without the combo, and Stuffy Doll in particular is a fantastic defensive card and can even serve as a win condition on it's own.

[chokin]

@Captain Hammer - Guilty Conscience doesn't play nicely with CotV either though :/.

ComboStax is cute and totally doable. Getting the BB to hardcast Leyline shouldn't be all that difficult with Mox and Flagstones. Personally I'd feel better about it running a single fetch or Eternal Dragon *cough*. Giving the deck Leyline in the main improves many random matches, but I'm not too sure how I feel about Tutor with CotV. Maybe Horizon Canopy is enough dig to get to it.

[Skeggi]

I think a combo can be pretty good in Stax as we often lack a decent finisher. However, it is highly recommended that the combo pieces are strong cards which fit in Stax on their own.

On to the future, here are two cards from Conflux which are coming our way:

Lapse of Certainty
Instant :2::w:
Counter target spell. If that spell is countered this way, put it on top of its owner's library instead of into that player's graveyard.

Timewalk anyone?

Scepter of Dominance
Artifact :1::w::w:
:w:,T : Tap target permanent.

Could be fun, but the double white is a shame though...any thoughts? :smile:

[Autioch]

White Lapse is not so bad, but in deck like that we should rarely leave open 3 mana at the end of our turn, being able to play some of our best cards - it would be the only one instant spell, which would born questions like "play something cool or wait, maybe opponent plays a threat to counter".

Scepter seems to be better option, as that WW mana is not so bad - worse problem would be spending W every turn instead of playing other WW spells.

But that's only my opinion, had anyone test them out, please share experience.

As for combos, all suggested combos aren't so good - stuffy doll has guilty conseince, which costs W - problem with CotV@1, the same with Grindstone. And if we would play them, we should run more tutors, of course for W. If so, deck should be rebuilded to contain no CotV, which is of course bad idea...

[georgjorge]

Shame about the Scepter really...getting 1WW on turn two isn't likely, and on turn three Icy Manipulator is better (unless you have a hand with two Plains and a Factory/Wasteland, which you probably should mull anyway for lack of speed).

[Mordel]

I kind of like the white lapse card, but I see myself having a very difficult time fiting it into the deck.

I am more curious about what people think of Chapin's bw prison deck. I sort of doubletake/whatwhatwhaaaat'd when I saw it. It seems way too focused for my liking.

instant [3]
3 Enlightened Tutor

sorcery [3]
2 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War

enchantment [10]
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring

artifact [18]
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Mox Diamond
4 Trinisphere

land [26]

1 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Dust Bowl
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Plains
3 Scrubland
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

1 Exalted Angel
1 Magus of the Tabernacle
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 Aura of Silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Academy Ruins

So it basically aims to have a few productive early turns, try to combo a win or lose miserably if th guy on the other side of the table can operate under a waste lock. I suppose it could work in a soulless pro metagame at a massive event with numerous pros that are basically paying the 1.5 format a visit to rape some dollars/points out of it...which means a very very defined meta.

I generally like Chapin's decks alot, but I am definitely not sold on this deck at all.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Same here. I think running 1 CC spells in a deck with CotV is a bad plan. Now I am not a fan of this deck at all since, much like Landstill, it takes so long to do anything. But with a combo finish to end the game (before the 30min mark) could be just what it needs. Painter seems lame in a deck with CotV. Horizon's Belcher isn't possible (unless you want to belch for like 3 a turn adding additional pain to the opponent). The Leyline combo is not bad but you just have so many dead draws it seems terrible. Is there a white Enlightened Tutor-type spell that costs 2 or more?

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

I saw him playing the deck atthe "Mean Deck Open." The deck really didnt do good at all. I saw him lose a lot of games (3-3?). I don't like the Leyline, becuase You rely on the card way too much. You're better off just locking them permanently instead of trying to get the combo off. Even in the Mirror, Moat doesnt hurt, nothign in the deck hurts. 1-2 artifact dectruction spells will kill the deck, and it relys too much on Helm and Leyline. Extirpate Leyline, game over..? Now game two when he sides te combo out and puts in Angel and magus and really runs a normal list of stax, then he'll probably lose anyways because he runs 2 basics, so he gets hurt by BtB and Blood Moon. I don't think this is the right deck to put the combo in (my Opinion). Now If I want to lose to Decks I shouldn't lose to, I would probably Play this combo.

[Glorfindel]

Idyllic Tutor fetches only enchantments.
Golden Wish would work (when you leave the combo in your sideboard), but why on Earth does it cost 5 mana?

[Mordel]

Honestly, this archetype does not really need tutoring. Draw can be nice, but I have had a hell of a time fitting it in.

[Mordel]

So I just played in an m-l mini and dreadstill is a very easy match. It is about the same as goblins for traditional builds of geddon stax.

[ykpon]

So I just played in an m-l mini and dreadstill is a very easy match. It is about the same as goblins for traditional builds of geddon stax.
depends on ur opponent's luck. sometimes it looks like "daze ur chalice, next turn 12/12 trample, pass. oh, u play oblivion ring? force of will then"

[Mordel]

Luck is always a factor obviously, but I have yet to lose a match to dreadstill and I have played the match plenty, so my opponents must be profoundly unlucky. Needless to say the whole luck thing is a silly stance to take because any deck can lose a normally awesome match due to luck.

Think more along the lines of Daze chalice/3sphere, fow the ring, fow the moat/humility...yeah...no. Hasn't happened yet.

Seriously, dutch/skegstax is a savage assraping for dreadstill. I have played about fifteen to nineteen(approximation obviously) matches and have yet to lose one. They don't have enough permission to properly deal with the build that I run. A big edge in the match is that they don't really know exactly what they are playing against or they know how to play against traditional magus/geddon builds and carry that strategy over to this build. Either way you slice it, they are not winning against me.

[Misplayer]

Somewhat related to the last few posts, how often do you all play around Daze? I find that it largely depends on my hand: I'm willing to risk getting that first Chalice Dazed if I can follow up with Trinisphere, Crucible, 'Geddon and so forth, especially because Chalice at 1 is such a beating for the decks that play Daze and resolving one first turn can significantly increase your chances of winning.

[Skeggi]

Is there a white Enlightened Tutor-type spell that costs 2 or more?

Idyllic Tutor (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/12.html), but it only searches enchantments unfortunately. It does put them directly into your hand though.


depends on ur opponent's luck. sometimes it looks like "daze ur chalice, next turn 12/12 trample, pass. oh, u play oblivion ring? force of will then"

So? Then you take 12 damage, you're not dead yet. Next turn you can play Moat, Humility or another Oblivion Ring. Your opponent has already thrown away at least: 1 Daze, 2 land, 1 Dreadnought, 1 Stifle, 1 Force of Will, 1 pitchcard. So he has only two cards left and already used 2 out of 8 counters. There's not much chance he has another counter.

[Shawon]

Somewhat related to the last few posts, how often do you all play around Daze? I find that it largely depends on my hand: I'm willing to risk getting that first Chalice Dazed if I can follow up with Trinisphere, Crucible, 'Geddon and so forth, especially because Chalice at 1 is such a beating for the decks that play Daze and resolving one first turn can significantly increase your chances of winning.

Even though it sucks, I just wait another turn. It seems counterintuitive with the idea of aggressively casting your "threats," but waiting another turn for a landdrop to secure your CotV@1 is worth it. Yeah, waiting another turn does give them a chance to go turn 2 Stifle+Nought, but still, if you can sense that Daze, waiting still seems like a better option plus I'm willing to take those chances. But it depends on what cards you have and how many times your opponent mulled. If they have 5 or less, then you should probably go for turn 1 CotV since that Daze will set them back a turn.

[Mordel]

Somewhat related to the last few posts, how often do you all play around Daze? I find that it largely depends on my hand: I'm willing to risk getting that first Chalice Dazed if I can follow up with Trinisphere, Crucible, 'Geddon and so forth, especially because Chalice at 1 is such a beating for the decks that play Daze and resolving one first turn can significantly increase your chances of winning.

A lot of the time [in the dreadstill match] if I have better stuff in my hand(3sphere etc), I will just bowl into dazes head first. If they do daze and skip their second land drop, I'm fine with that. Decks like dreadstill and thresh to some degree are miserable at keeping stuff off of the table for more than a few turns, dreadstill is even worse because sometimes the dreadstill player will throw down a standstill and then you get a chance to sculpt a great hand and make land drops and draw/not draw whatever it is that causes them to lose whenever they do the second turn standstill maneuver.

For decks like Thresh and TA, I will play around daze to a degree depending on how I am feeling about the state of the game(mulls etc). In most cases though, I am more concerned about getting a 3sphere or a crucible out to penalize decks with lower numbers of land and reliance on fetches.

You should also keep in mind that the build I play has numerous outs against dreadnaughts, so I can afford to see one hit play most of the time. A scenario that has played out for me against dreadstill has been 1st turn cotv dazed, 2nd turn naught, I play a 3sphere to have it forced, 3rd turn swing misses a land drop plays a cb, I play a moat/humility/o-ring, they brainstorm and don't find a FoW. I cackle at my desk because their deck sucks against mine.

[f|i[p]]

Congrats on the finish erbs...

any match up reports? any particular match ups that went bad?

[Misplayer]

You should also keep in mind that the build I play has numerous outs against dreadnaughts, so I can afford to see one hit play most of the time. A scenario that has played out for me against dreadstill has been 1st turn cotv dazed, 2nd turn naught, I play a 3sphere to have it forced, 3rd turn swing misses a land drop plays a cb, I play a moat/humility/o-ring, they brainstorm and don't find a FoW. I cackle at my desk because their deck sucks against mine.

I can see how the Dreadstill matchup is favorable because you pack so many answers to big, resolved threats (something with which the traditional build has a MUCH harder time). However, I’m not sure I understand your example. I’m assuming these are all different situations from multiple games, as T1 Daze <> T2 ‘Naught. Also, assuming they resolve a ‘Naught they usually will only need 2 counters to protect it. Once Dreadnaught lands, they’ll probably let Trinisphere resolve if they can hit 3 lands the following turn, as it’s not slowing down their 2 turn clock and they can keep 3 mana up to counter your next turns spell and swing for the win. Obviously this is all situational and anecdotal evidence, but in order to beat an early game dreadnaught you need to have 2 answers and hope one resolves. Baiting a Daze/FoW with a first turn CoTV in this matchup seems like a very strong play.

Keep in mind that some Dreadstill decks play Crucible (or Grip maindeck) and also can get there with factory beats even if Dreadnaught swings in just once prior to Humility/O-Ring. Again, I’m not debating that Dreadstill is a favorable matchup for Dutch Stax, I just don’t think it’s 85% or even 75%. Traditional Stax is probably slightly unfavorable if anything, maybe around 40% preboard, but I don’t think most builds have a lot of answers games 2 and 3 for any Stax build while we get cards like Defense Grid, Aura of Silence, Seal of Cleansing and additional O-Rings depending on your build.

I’m curious as to what people feel is the strength (i.e. viability) of this deck in the current metagame (which most people see as Dreadstill, Team America, ANT, plus staples like Thresh, Survival and Landstill). Personally, I don’t feel like there are any “oh crap” matchups out there for the traditional build (I’m not willing to drop so much cash on a narrow card like Moat that isn’t really played 4x in any other deck). There are obvious challenges, but in many of my games the most unfavorable situations are just an Armageddon away from my opponent picking up their cards (what’s left of them, of course). Long story short: Traditional Stax is viable in the current metagame – True or False?

One last point/question: I’ve recently cut my single Exalted Angel for a 25th land. Angel has seemed like a blatant win-more, and I’ve had to mulligan WAY more than I’ve liked because even most 2 land hands are barely keepable. Here’s my current manabase:

7x Plains
4x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Horizon Canopy
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
3x Wasteland
3x Mishra’s Factory

Suggestions and comments welcome.

[Skeggi]

Also, assuming they resolve a ‘Naught they usually will only need 2 counters to protect it.
Which they often don't have since they only pack 8 counters; assuming they've already spent one on Chalice@1.

Once Dreadnaught lands, they’ll probably let Trinisphere resolve if they can hit 3 lands the following turn, as it’s not slowing down their 2 turn clock and they can keep 3 mana up to counter your next turns spell and swing for the win.
Which is exactly why I only run 2 Trinispheres maindeck (2 in the sideboard). I might even ban them all to the sideboard with the upcoming Scepter of Dominance.


Personally, I don’t feel like there are any “oh crap” matchups out there for the traditional build (I’m not willing to drop so much cash on a narrow card like Moat that isn’t really played 4x in any other deck).
MUC and The Rock are pretty bad match-ups in my book. But that goes for all Stax builds.


Long story short: Traditional Stax is viable in the current metagame – True or False?
Very true. I think it's viable in any metagame, because in theory, you can deal with any deck. However you do need a good gameplan in your opening hand because you have no draw - and that's where I find Stax often comes a bit short.


One last point/question: I’ve recently cut my single Exalted Angel for a 25th land.
Good choice imo. There is no room in any Stax build for Exalted Angel anymore, not even the traditional one. Lots of testing has shown that stable builds which focus more on the mana-denial strategy work better than the so-called 'Angel-lock'.

Here’s my current manabase:

7x Plains
4x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Horizon Canopy
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
3x Wasteland
3x Mishra’s Factory
I personally don't like 4 Flagstones of Trokair, but prefer 3. In the traditional build I also ran a Kor Haven, you might want to try that out since you're more vulnerable to a singleton hitter than Dutch Stax.

[Misplayer]

Skeggi,
When you cut Trinisphere, are you worried about significantly weakening your combo matchup? I know the traditional build plays very differently, but I run 4 Trinisphere to not only improve combo but as counter protection to force through my bombs, make Stifle-Naught very difficult to pull-off, make stax/crucible a hard lock, and be an overall bitch for my opponent. At first I was running 3 (one sideboard) because multiples are often not useful, but the power of it to disrupt my opponent made me bump it to the full playset. I understand you'll bring them in for games 2 and 3, but then the combo player gets access to Serenity, Shattering Spree and other answers.

You're other points are well taken and reinforce a lot of my assumptions. Kor Haven sounds like a strong choice, and I'd probably cut a Plains. I have never had any issues with 4 Flagstones, so that choice is probably build-dependent. I'm also lucky to see almost no Rock (or other Deed based decks) or MUC in my metagame, which is why they slipped my mind, but I agree that anything that runs Deed is very very difficult for any deck that tries to put it's entire library into play every game. I don't know if MUC would be too awful, but an early Trinisphere certainly can't hurt that matchup either.

/response to Skeggi

I've been considering Null Rod instead of Suppression Field out of the board. Advantages are obvious in that it shuts down Top and EE among other things conclusively and allows you to waste and apply factory beats with no ill effects. However, Suppression Field is so powerful in the taxing strategy of Traditional Stax for Fetchlands alone, let alone other things it hinders like Survival, opposing Factories and others. I think I'm going to stick with Suppression Field but I'm curious about what others think.

[Mordel]

I run null rod in my sideboard personally. I put it in almost exclusively to destroy affinity and shut down EE/SDT. It has worked decent for me, though I have not sided i in much.

In all honesty though, for the combo match, unless I can get some sort of lock off on them, which involves being insanely lucky, generally I consider the match a write-off.

If I was going to play the deck at a bigger metagame with combo I would probably try to figure out a way to integrate angel or something to similar effect to the sideboard or perhaps main, so I can have an additional source of pressure to accompany an incomplete lock...maybe even tutors or something. The combo match for me is completely abysmal not because I can't disrupt them, btu because pressure is hard to come by once they are being disrupted, but not locked.

[Shawon]

Why not run Sphere of Resistance in the side. Now you have the possibility of first turn CotV, SoR, or Trinisphere in your set of turn 1 plays.

[Mordel]

That's all great and fine, but you still have to win once you have disrupted them...

[Shawon]

Yeah, obvi, but if you're running Dutch Stax, you have Elspeth and Mishra's Factory, or if you're running Arma Stax, you're running either Magus/Factory/Angel anyway. Point is, I don't think adding in Angel or 'fast clock' (other than Elspeth) in place of a lock piece is going to help against combo. I'd rather just invest more in locking than adding more win conditions.

[georgjorge]

Dutch Stax took 2nd place (http://web17.accelerated.de/turniere/2009-01-04/legacydeck.htm) at a 70-person tourney in Germany...

[Mordel]

Shawon: factories suck shit at racing and so do magus. Further more in most traditional builds, angel is dropped in favor of other things, as far as people on this thread's lists go.

In regards to my build three Elspeth and three factories is hardly a way to put on pressure...seriously. I clearly stated what I feel to be the deck's weakness in the combo matchup. If you disagree, that's fine, but
I'd rather just invest more in locking than adding more win conditions. is hardly brilliant insight, nor does it really help especially when you take the time to look at my list which has been posted a few times and has barely changed.

If you don't have anything to say really, don't post.

Edit: Wow, gogo skeg/dutch stax. I don't know if I am really feeling the red splash because I ran with it for a while and the necessary dots to get my red mana online in a timely fashion never really connected, but it obviously worked for him just fine. I'd like to see a report for sure though.

[Shawon]

Actually, I'll do the worrying about whether I should post or not, thanks. I appreciate the concern, though.

I never said anything about Magus/Factory racing. I think that's the issue here. If you have disruptive pieces on the board, how does combo win other than removing your lock pieces or combing through? As far as I know, storm combo doesn't run alternate win conditions. That's why I said I say adding in EA to apply a 'fast clock' isn't going to help against combo, not any more than another lock piece.

Side note (to all): Null Rod also stops Moxes, LED, and Lotus Petal, so it can also serve as anti-combo tech.

[Mordel]

I don't have horseshoes up my ass, so in combo matchups I often get CotV and 3sphere duressed or forced and end up having, but one on the table, which disrupts them, but does not lock them out of the game...which is why the ability to capitalize on the time it takes for them to answer said card before going off well-used if I have a way to put good pressure on besides a card that there are three copies of in my deck.

I am pretty sure that I already explained that though. Please read moar.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

No Draw in this Deck. I've tried a few, like Bottled Cloister and Fact or Fiction. How About Oblation? I've been running Oblation for a while now (two years off and on). There are a lot of benefits the card can do for you.

1. Instant removal like O. Ring, does have a little bit of a drawback (More than a little).

I rarely use it for the removal of their spells, although I have in the past (Dreadnought, Serenity). Now what advantages does it have for our own permanents.

1. "Block with Angel, damage on, Oblation. Gain 4, and get her back inthe deck and draw 2 cards." Same concept with Elspeth, Magus.

2. "Why do I need 2 Trinispheres on the board??? EOT shuffle it back in, and draw 2 extra."

3. "Smash to smitereens, well in response, BAM, draw 2 cards, and get a chance to get that card back!"

4. And my personal Favorite..... I'm racing Landstill, with Trinisphere and Smokestax out, but I just cant seem to get an armageddon resolved. They got Crucible out, but so do I, So they have 10 land, I got a few, plus a Prison, but They're swingin with Factory. It's not looking too good, Ramp Stax to 2, Ramp Stax to 3, Ramp stax to 4, Finally, I ramp it to 5, finally get the bastard to sac the Crucible, but I got a problem. I got Stax, Sphere, CoW, Diamond, and City of traitors in Play, and I gotta sac all five permanents. Well the EOT Oblation on my Smokestax, I draw 2 extra cards, and I call it tricks my friends. Does anyone have any opinions on this card?

BTW: The Side event of the Grand Prix in Indy Last year, I was playing against Cephalid Breakfast. He taps out, with Trinisphere on the board, I got Magus and Prison Out, I'm at 5. I Oblation his Dreadnought, next turn Suppression Field with Armageddon. The Best part of the game, is when the 12-15 people standing around you say, "Oblation??! What the Hell does that do? Priceless!

[Patrick]

@ Mordel and Skegg:

Exalted Angel still fits in Stax. While playing Moat, you're going to need an attacker to get through in the event that your opponent doesn't concede the game. I know you can sacrifice Moat to Smokestack and begin attacking with Factory and Magus, but you can be forced to leave the Moat down, and it's nice to have a clock. Also, there are times when against aggro decks such as Goyf Sligh and Goblins you have the deck soft locked, either with Trinisphere or Chalice and Armageddon. They're still able to draw into some land and play a threat. Having the Angel means you need to keep the game locked for 5 turns. Chalice @ 1 protects it from Swords and you can keep other creatures around for things like Innocent Blood or something else. Against burn decks, the Angel lets you gain precious life back. There are also matchups where a Turn 2 or 3 Angel is the best way to win.

[Arsenal]

@ Mordel and Skegg:

Exalted Angel still fits in Stax. While playing Moat, you're going to need an attacker to get through in the event that your opponent doesn't concede the game. I know you can sacrifice Moat to Smokestack and begin attacking with Factory and Magus, but you can be forced to leave the Moat down, and it's nice to have a clock. Also, there are times when against aggro decks such as Goyf Sligh and Goblins you have the deck soft locked, either with Trinisphere or Chalice and Armageddon. They're still able to draw into some land and play a threat. Having the Angel means you need to keep the game locked for 5 turns. Chalice @ 1 protects it from Swords and you can keep other creatures around for things like Innocent Blood or something else. Against burn decks, the Angel lets you gain precious life back. There are also matchups where a Turn 2 or 3 Angel is the best way to win.

I think they, as am I, are of the opinion that while Exalted Angel can technically fit into Stax, it isn't a necessary addition. Can we make room for Hoofprints of the Stag? Sure. Is it the most organic and synergistic fit with the build? Maybe, maybe not. Again, Angels are not 100% necessary, but are able to be run depending on playstyle and preference.

[f|i[p]]

I think they, as am I, are of the opinion that while Exalted Angel can technically fit into Stax, it isn't a necessary addition. Can we make room for Hoofprints of the Stag? Sure. Is it the most organic and synergistic fit with the build? Maybe, maybe not. Again, Angels are not 100% necessary, but are able to be run depending on playstyle and preference.

This is true regarding angel, they are not 100% necessary, but it could be run depending on preference. In a more aggro oriented metagame I think angels would help the deck alot. Its all metagame dependent.

As for hoofprints, it wont work in the deck at all, It would take you 4 turns just to bust out a 4/4 elemetal creature. Remember this deck doesn't have draw. If you are however running Oblations, it may work. But I personally don't advocate oblations. It's very defensive and doesn't really help the lock. Giving the opponent 2 cards just makes it suck more. Its a very big risk, remove one card, give the opponent 2 in hand.

[Arsenal]

In a more aggro meta, why not just run Moat instead? I wouldn't run Angel over Moat if my aggro was predominantly aggro. Again, totally not necessary.

EDIT: Regarding my Hoofprints comment, I merely using that card to illustrate my point; although we may be able to technically fit in Card ABC, it doesn't necessarily mean we (a.) need it, or (b.) want it. Really, Angel isn't needed in the deck, and after hearing the arguments for her inclusion, you should really just play something better in that slot (Moat, Humility, etc).

[Mordel]

I rep Skegstax, which has humilities in it. The race option requires sideboarding basically.

As of late, playing mws has taken a bit of a backseat, so I really haven't seen whether or not combo has gained popularity in the virtual metagame. I was sort of mentioning the entire racing thing for the benefit of anyone that is lurking and has been having issues with combo amongst other reasons.

In an irl metagame with a crowd of "regulars" or whatever with dudes that are balling on budgets and stuff, I would probably reach for a traditional build over skeg/dutchstax, but in a rich people/big tourney meta, I would probably opt for the latter. That's just me though.

[Skeggi]

Skeggi,
When you cut Trinisphere, are you worried about significantly weakening your combo matchup?

There isn't alot of combo in my meta so it isn't a fair question. When I do come up against combo, often I do not know about it and lose the first game anyway. In that case I can just leave the Trinisphere in the sideboard and mul to it game 2 and 3.


Dutch Stax took 2nd place (http://web17.accelerated.de/turniere/2009-01-04/legacydeck.htm) at a 70-person tourney in Germany...
Wow this guy took an exact copy of my list. Pretty cool :smile:.


Oblation
This is a fun card, which has various uses. However I can't think of something that I could take out of my deck for this. I wouldn't switch Oblivion Ring for it for instance. And the rest are pretty much out of the question to get out...also, Horizon Canopy still seems like a better option if you want draw.

The problem with Oblation as a draw card is, that it doesn't generate card advantage (which negates the point of being draw): it costs a card by itself, and it shuffles a card you once drew back into your deck. It may be a fun trick up your sleeve as you described in the Landstill match, but it seems very incidental.

If you want to try more ways to draw cards besides Horizon Canopy, I guess you can try:
Arcane Spyglass (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/93.html)
Armistice (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/3.html)
Horn of Greed (http://magiccards.info/sh/en/129.html)
They're not exactly savage tech...but if you're desperate for draw...

[Patrick]

I wasn't saying that Exalted Angel is 100% necessary in the deck, I was saying I didn't understand why everyone had dismissed it as a viable card (or so I thought, I see now you guys don't). I don't understand the comment about running Moat over Angel, the seem to work great together. And if you're using Humility I agree. Angel is out.

[Mordel]

Most people that run more than a singleton moat are running humility...as far as I know anyway. To run several moats, no Elspecth or angels and have magus seems retarded and I honestly don't think anyone on this thread would do that.

You're mixing up posts or something.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Dutch Stax took 2nd place (http://web17.accelerated.de/turniere/2009-01-04/legacydeck.htm) at a 70-person tourney in Germany...

Holy shit, that list is fucking amazing. I proxied it up and goldfished it a little and playtested it a little and it is fantastic. Does anyone on this thread have any experience with rich man Stax? 4x Moat is fucking ridiculous. I would like to try and build it but before I start piecing Moats together it would be good to hear someone's thoughts on the deck who has experience with this build or a fairly similar one.

[Mordel]

If not for the lack of a 1.5 scene where I live and being short one moat, I could say lots of stuff about it. Just read the last few pages: there is lots of talk about it from Skeggi and I. Try to keep its awesomeness on the dl though =P

[Shawon]

Holy shit, that list is fucking amazing. I proxied it up and goldfished it a little and playtested it a little and it is fantastic. Does anyone on this thread have any experience with rich man Stax? 4x Moat is fucking ridiculous. I would like to try and build it but before I start piecing Moats together it would be good to hear someone's thoughts on the deck who has experience with this build or a fairly similar one.

Magus of the Moat? But then again, if you can't afford Moats/Elspeths, Geddon Stax might be more viable.

[Mordel]

Magus of the moat is a horrible, horrible replacement. 1.5 is a very pay to play format: if you don't have the cash to play something, then play something else.

[Shawon]

Magus of the moat is a horrible, horrible replacement. 1.5 is a very pay to play format: if you don't have the cash to play something, then play something else.

Dude, take a fuckin' chill pill. EDIT: I'll use the sarcasm tag next time.

[f|i[p]]

MAgus of the moat doesn't work under humility. So its not a valid replacement. I was trying to look for a moat replacement as well not so long ago. But there is just nothing to replace it with.

If thats the dutch stax that skeggi has been working on(since I cant really see the link), it has been tested, and richman stax has its problems as well as armageddon stax. Its not perfect, its well suited for a more aggro metagame. You can go a few pages back and check out its problems. I personally tried and tested the deck and it does have very strong tech as well. It ends up as a play style preference.

I have personally seen how moat works, and you can not compare it to exalted angel. THey both serve different purposes. While it does shut down aggro, it has its flaws, even with humilities out. Moat locks almost every creature out. But dutchstax has a bigger chance to get a really slow win condition.

As for dutch stax and armageddon stax, they both have advantages and disadvantages when compared with each other. For now, I am leaning towards armageddon stax simply because moats prices are crazy and hard to get over here. And since they do differ from playstyle but does not have a clear advantage over the other, I'm staying with geddon stax for now.

As of lately I have been leaving angel on the sideboard and focusing more on the lock itself main. Only time and more testing will tell.

I'm hoping however that more results from big tournaments come out just like this one. It makes dutch stax more valid as a competitor.

[Mordel]

Dude, take a fuckin' chill pill. EDIT: I'll use the sarcasm tag next time.

If you are going to try to play a horrible suggestion off as unwarranted/rude use of sarcasm, you should probably change the post itself to be a bit more conducive to such a claim.

ANYWAY...

Flip, I find that richpeople/skeg/dutch stax tends to perform best in what would best be described as a sort of aggro-control meta, which has a strong presence of decks like dreadX, Team America etc etc...minus faerie stompy. I haven't tested this match as I would have liked to yet, but so far I do not like it very much. I am at four match losses with zero wins.

One big difference that I have found with skeg stax is kind of hinted at in prior posts, but I have never really articulated it and that is that, personally, I find myself to stand up to discard and other sorts of disruption a bit better because the deck is less coggish than the traditional build. That is to say that if I am staring down a goyf and a few of his friends or whatever and my opponent gets off a lucky thoughtseize or what have you(stretching it with cotv and 3sphere, but bare with me) and I lose my geddon and I was relying on playing the geddon to stop the critters in their tracks, I am fucked. Whereas all I need to do is resolve a moat or humble and I am fine in these situations.

Obviously, vindicate is the reverse inverts the favored build, but I find myself having not as bad of a time with discard and vindicates as I would with more traditional builds. Everybody's luck varies and such, so this might just be me.

I don't want anyone to interpret my personal experience expressed above as a challenge or whatever. I have tested both builds plenty, so I am pretty familiar with pros and cons like the ability to run eight copies of geddon and so on and so forth.

[f|i[p]]

As I said before, with dutch stax, you don't rely on synergy as much.Moats and humility handles creatures by themselves, unlike the traditional builds who would need prison and magus or prison and geddon together to be able to handle creatures. Im quite sure it does do better in some cases like dreadstill, and the likes, as they tend to ignore prison and just paying 2.

On facing aggro however,what I often encountered in dutch stax, is the win condition being quite slow or locks that take forever to establish. Unlike in traditional builds where you often make the opponent, think twice if he should put a creature down or not(simply because of magus, prisons and the decks taxing capability), in dutch stax case however, they wouldn't care at all, as it is less taxing for the mana thus achieving a smokestack lock and win is harder. I often found myself facing a horde of 1/1 goblins waiting for a disenchant effect, and me waiting for my win condition or a horde of suicidal goblins via seige gang .This however goes for swarm based aggro.

Dutch stax works better against some decks, but only slightly better. And it also performs slightly worse against others. You should test it out yourself, It will all come down to a metagame choice as well.

Dutch stax for now will need more proof that it is competitive as a deck.I think dutch stax and armageddon stax has an entirely different way of playstyle which warrants its own threads. Sadly I find this thread going in circles as of lately. Its quite annoying to read of armageddon stax and dutchstax in the same thread as it makes armageddon stax thread a less focused one. I really do think that dutch stax should get its own thread and I'm hoping that skeggi would start it.

[Shawon]

Dutch stax works better against some decks, but only slightly better. And it also performs slightly worse against others. You should test it out yourself, It will all come down to a metagame choice as well.

Besides swarm based aggro (Goblins, Elves), against what other decks does Dutch Stax work worse than Geddon Stax?

[Mordel]

Honestly, the two approaches to the same archetype are way way too similar to warrant another thread.

Shawon: Dutch/Skeg/Richpeople stax is not as good for a match against dredge either. I never tested affinity enough to formulate an opinion for normal versus Dutch. I know for sure that I do not like the dredge game as much though.

[f|i[p]]

I don't think its similar at all, armageddon stax focuses on taxing/locking the opponent while dutch stax doesn't. The only thing similar to them is their parts. armageddon is not really needed in dutch stax,while essential in geddon stax. They have an entirely different playstyle, and players tend to ask about one or the other in armageddon stax thread. Armageddon stax is an established deck while dutch stax isn't. More and more people are getting interested in dutch stax and is clumping the armageddon stax thread. If you compare it to homebrew, having the typical B/W and the B/w/g having their own seperate threads. THey play entirely alike and the only thing different is tarmogoyf, lands and maybe some sideboard pieces. All in all, as an armageddon stax player I would like dutch stax out of this thread, so we can talk more about armageddon stax itself. Its also about time that dutch stax proves it self and gets its own thread.