[Deck] Armageddon Stax

[Mordel]

Look dude: I don't give a fuck either way, but I am just explaining how a mod is going to see it. That is all.

Besides, if it wasn't for Dutch stax coming about, this thread would just be random guys going "hey, I like this deck, my deck is almost the exact same as every other deck posted on here. What do you think of its sideboard?" at which point you have to generally ask them what their meta is like etc, people talk about good sideboard stuff and lately a Japanese dude and Chapin have played these two fucked up variants, which it could be argued have no place on this thread too...what results is absolutely no innovations in the archetype, deck or whatever you want to call it.

Whether or not the two decks are extremely, very or vaguely similar doesn't really matter to me personally because at least there is a sort of cross-polination of ideas going on in this thread and something is sort of happening with the archetype in general.

[Shawon]

Re: making two threads, having two separate threads makes searching for info on either deck more convenient, but like Mordel, I don't really care about starting a new thread. If someone with a little time on their hands can make an OP, that'd be great.

~~~~~~~~~

Anyway, I really want to clarify the specific matchups in which GeddonStax outperforms Dutch Stax.

So far we have:

- Swarm-based aggro (Goblins, Elves, Affinity? any others? I know Merfolk isn't in this category, not swarm at all, plus Moat is a must-answer threat).
- Dredge
- Burn? (Only because Geddon Stax usually runs Angel, and Dutch Stax usually doesn't, but it can)
- Anything else?

EDIT: Faerie Stompy? Moat is practically dead on its own against FS, but you do have Humility. Geddon Stax runs Prisons, and Prisons is annoying against FS.

Right now, I just want to enumerate all the matchups Geddon is favored against over Dutch Stax. Then, I would like to discuss whether those advantages GeddonStax have over Dutch Stax are significant.

[_erbs_]

;308266']Congrats on the finish erbs...

any match up reports? any particular match ups that went bad?


Hello f|i[p]

Thanks !! its been so long i ended top after swiss 5-0-1 and paired with the 8th spot which is was counter sliver which i think the deck really really struggles, i lost..

Matchup 1 vs Mono black control
Game 1
1st turn morphed angel 2nd turn unmorphed to vitory

Game 2
forgot the deatials but he made a bad move by casting nether void, after a resolved geddon + elspeth GG

Matchup 2 vs Counter Sliver
Game 1
1st turn trinisphere
2nd turn morphed angel
3rd turn unmorphed
GG

Game 2
no asnwer for the horde of slivers..

Game 3
1st turn sphere of resistance
2nd turn chalice for 1
basically i had an early control over mana thus giving me the win

Matchup 3 vs Goblins
Game 1
I draw an early Sphere law and it kept me alive, i dropped another Sphere of law GG

Game 2
It was a loooooooooongggg match i had total board control x3 ghostly prisons, x2 sphere of law, trinishphere, chalice of void, but no win condition...
on the last five turns i draw magus of tabernacle but it was a draw..

Matchup 4 vs Goblins
Game 1
double chrome mox + ancient tomb = casted sphere of law, my opponent casts 1st turn lackey... after several turns i got magus + geddon GG

Game 2
1st turn lackey, luckyl my 1st turn was ghostly, forgot the entire details but it was another looooooooooooooooonnnnnngggg match. time expired i won since i won game 1

Matchup 5 vs Goblins
Game 1
early smokestack lock GG

Game 2
forgot the details but another loooooooooonnnnngggg match. time expired i won since i won game 1

Matchup 6 vs Meathooks
I asked him if it was okay to draw our match so that we could take a break, he agreed.


The Top 8
Matchup 1 vs Countersliver
Game 1
- on the draw my opponent casts 1st turn aether vial
- 1st turn trinisphere was countered.
- several turns aether vial pumps out essence sliver GG

Game 2
- 1st turn chailce counterd via fow
- my opponent casts 1st turn aether vial
- 2nd turn i cast trinisphere counterd via daze ... that was the game breaker..
- no answer for slivers coming out of vial

i boarded in 3 sphere of resistance 3 pithing needle i didn't draw even 1 of them...

[Mordel]

Shawon, seriously all of the info that you are looking for is in earlier parts of the thread and can also be supported by testing online.

Burn has always been sort of a joke for me with either build being as I have always run sphere of law and the key cards in the matchup are present in both builds. You should be able to spot these. Aside from angel, which I suppose is a huge advantage in the match, but I would hardly want to bank on something that there is only two copies of. I have three geddons in my build and I seldom see them.

Seriously, read a few pages back and test.

[GGoober]

I think that the meta has changed such that Moat isn't as good to be honest. Many decks are running Tombstalkers now that Tombstalker has proven to equally castable as a Goyf but being much more resilient to destroy. His evasion and 5/5 body gets past everything, bolts, blasts, goyfs, snuff outs, deeds, smothers, moats. He only dies to Oring and StP.

Then again, Moat = Goyf Walls lol.

[Skeggi]

;310607']Its also about time that dutch stax proves it self and gets its own thread.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=310859#post310859

There ya go :)

[hugh1130]

so recently i have been having alot of problems with one card.. teeg... it seems that i just cannot deal with him in time to regain control of the game, and only oblivion ring is a real way to deal with him after he hits the board..

any ideas?

[f|i[p]]

Powder keg answers teeg and there are a few others , but keg is what was pretty much talked about for teeg a pages back.

[Patrick]

I suppose Teeg is a little G/W grim reaper for Stax. You'll really have to lean on your creatures and wasteland/crucible lock for that game.

That being said, yesterday I played in a 30 person 20 proxy event organized by our "friends" Brian DeMars and the rest of the nerds at RIW hobbies. As I expected, the 20 proxy allowance put the percentage of decks using Islands somewhere around 70-80. No joke. Landstill and various Counter-Top builds were the most popular. I also noted 2 Aggro Loam decks, 1 Vial Horror deck, 1 Goblin Charbelcher, 1 Affinity, 1 Goblins and 1 Zoo. Also, I played Stax. Maybe not 80%, but a lot of fuckin' Islands.

4 Magus
3 Angel
4 Armageddon
1 Ravages
4 Prison
1 Moat
4 Crucible
4 Chalice
4 Diamond
3 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere
7 Plains
3 Flagstones
4 Tomb
4 City
4 Wasteland
2 Factory
1 Kor Haven
1 Horizon Canopy

3 Suppression Field
3 Aura of Silence
3 Sphere of Resistence
3 Humility
3 Runed Halo

Round 1: Aggro Loam.

Nothing exciting happens, I take game one because of Armageddon and some other bullshit, Magus beats him up.

Game two he gets an aggressive start with Big Country Kitchen and I can't draw answers. He Thoughtsiezes my Chalice. I lose.

Game 3 goes forever, to time. I hold out for a while and drop Moat. I don't have crucible this game, nor do I draw into Chalice. I resolve 1 Armageddon and get it Extirpated. The same with Humility and Suppression Field. All game he has Countryside Crusher getting bigger and bigger, and the 3 Magus I draw don't do anything in this game. Turn 3 of extra turns he Wishes for Rite of Consumption and Crusher is a 20/20. Retarded.

Note: At this point I realize I should have proxyed at least 1, maybe 2 Ravages of War. I saw Meddling Mage out there as well, confirming this idea.

Round 2: Zoo

I win 2-0. I don't board anything. The scariest play he had was 2 Wild Nacatyl, and when he Tribal Flames'd my Exalted Angel. Scoops to Moat.

Round 3: Affinity.

I take game 1 by Stack/3Sphere lock. Wasteland/Crucible is MVP. Game 2 I sit behind 3 Ghostly Prisons and a Magus for a million turns while he plays 1 blocker and Cranial Plating. I have Aura of Silence down, but somehow he gets to 6 mana and swings with an Ornithopter so I have to blow Aura. He Needled Wasteland this game. He draws 3 Disciple and a Ravager in a few consecutive turns and wins. He played slow. Game 3 we go to time, and I have 3-Sphere Wastelock and Magus crashing in. I'm turn 5, I attack him to 12, reveal a hand of Armageddon, Armageddon, Aura, Land, Smokestack and ask for the concession. He draws. : (

Round 4: Some Blue/Black/Green deck.

I don't really know what this guy was doing. He played Brainstorm, Tarmogoyasidf, Krosan Grip, Swords and some stuff. Game 1 I play Chalice at 1, 3 Sphere and he's not really in the game. Magus comes attacking, and he forgets to pay for Goofy, so it dies. It was sad. Resolving Armageddon yields a concession. Game 2 I get no Crucible, but my spells start resolving. Suppression Field frustrates him as he can't Top and Fetch whenever he wants. He starts to get in the game, so I play a blind Armageddon. Then I draw a lot of lands and a Factory. This match was a blowout.

Round 5: Some stupid Threshold deck.

He forces my relevant cards and I lose.

2-2-1 into something like 12th place.

[Skeggi]

Didn't really know where to place this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22804) so I thought I'd drop it here. First place in a 65 player tournament in France apparently.

[Arsenal]

Didn't really know where to place this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22804) so I thought I'd drop it here. First place in a 65 player tournament in France apparently.

Wow. That top 8 was savage. I'm surprised by this build as it uses white as a light splash for Geddon, 2 at that, and some sideboard stuff. Definitely unconventional. I'd be interested in hearing from the pilot why not just go full monoblue?

[Skeggi]

Wow. That top 8 was savage. I'm surprised by this build as it uses white as a light splash for Geddon, 2 at that, and some sideboard stuff. Definitely unconventional. I'd be interested in hearing from the pilot why not just go full monoblue?

I think he really needs the Armageddons, and he has Magus in the sideboard. I guess he can draw enough via Thirst for Knowledge. Another thing that caught my attention were the 3 maindeck Powder Kegs and the 2 Maze of Iths.

[Arsenal]

Even with TfK, 2 Armageddon is enough? And with Magus in the board while Geddon is maindecked? I'm not seeing it.

Also, what is he Kegging that he couldn't EE? I'm assuming he wouldn't up Keg to 3 (destroys Crucible, 3sphere), so I'm guessing he usually upped to it 1 or 2; in that scenario, why not EE? He can support it since he's running two colors.

[Skeggi]

There's a distinct difference between Keg and EE. The first big difference is Gaddock Teeg: Keg deals with him, while EE gets hindered by him. The second major difference, is that EE requires you to keep 2 open mana to activate. Powder Keg goes off for free. The third major difference is that Powder Keg only kills creatures and artifacts (no enchantments).

[Arsenal]

Just going off the other top 8 lists, I saw lots of Counterbalance, lots of EE, and no Teeg (but other fishy stuff like Confidant, MM, etc). If the top 8 was indicative of the overall field (archetype mix, cards used, etc), then EE seems like it would've been the better choice; even the other top 8 lists were running EE, presumably with the same train of thought.

[f|i[p]]

Nice deck, it does however have a very similar approach to geddon stax, its taxing. And instead of using angels, he would just steal your creature and use it to beat face.

I like thirst of knowledge here, with lots of artifacts we usually run into doubles mid game. Adds draw as well. He could have probably cut smokestack to 3, and added a 3rd armageddon

I find powder keg weird as well, it really does seem like EE would be a lot better. But I wouldn't really know what he had the kegs for. Maybe teeg.

The archmage looks interesting, this could really buy you some time to look for the card that would seal the deal or counter some trouble some cards.

I still dont like windborn muses on the side, I would have rather get prisons instead, powder keg maindeck? how bout o ring? anyway, very interesting deck for a U/w stax

[Patrick]

I thought about a Blue Stax list a while ago. The best situation I could come up with was playing that Tabernacle enchantment, Smokestack and Paradox Haze (Enchanted Player gets 2 upkeeps). Probably some more stuff that harms them during the upkeep. Seemed fun, but not viable.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Intuition is actually the single most important and alluring factor in any stax list playing blue. Not playing Intuition was fail. It's so nice to tutor into two lock pieces and an Academy Ruins.

[Dark_Cynic87]

EDIT: Dbl-post. My laptop is fail.

[scrow213]

Hello all! I am new to the site, but have trolled here for quite some time reading threads. Here is my version on Stax:

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [REW] Wasteland
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
7 [TSP] Plains (4)

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle

// Spells
3 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [US] Smokestack
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
4 [AT] Armageddon
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [NE] Tangle Wire
4 [DS] Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [9E] Defense Grid
SB: 3 [US] Disenchant
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [RAV] Suppression Field

Let me know what you think!

[Misplayer]

@scrow: Have you found yourself wanting Tangle Wire to be Crucible #4 (which is argueably the second most important card in Stax), Chalice, O-Ring or Smokestack #4? That's easily the most questionable slot in your build.

[scrow213]

@scrow: Have you found yourself wanting Tangle Wire to be Crucible #4 (which is argueably the second most important card in Stax), Chalice, O-Ring or Smokestack #4? That's easily the most questionable slot in your build.

Yeah I think sometimes I do want a Crucible or an O-ring. But there are games that the Tangle Wire really helped save my ass. Maybe I just have a soft spot for the card, and should try playing without it.

What do you think of the list?

[Patrick]

Yeah I think sometimes I do want a Crucible or an O-ring. But there are games that the Tangle Wire really helped save my ass. Maybe I just have a soft spot for the card, and should try playing without it.

What do you think of the list?

This list is teh jank. Tangle Wire isn't nearly as good as the other cards mentioned 2 posts above. My suggestions:

-1 Flagstones/ +1 Wasteland
-3 Tangle Wire/ +1 Chalice, +1 Smokestack, +1 Crucible
-3 Oblivion Ring/ +3 Something Better

O Ring just doesn't do what you want it to do. There is already enough enchantment kill in the format to deal with Ring pretty well. The only time O Ring is good is against a deck like Threshold or Dreadstill when you get Ring to stick. Even then, it's not stellar. In my list that card is Exalted Angel, but it can be other stuff too.

-3 Disenchant/ +3 Aura of Silence
-4 Relic of Progenitus, -1 Defense Grid/ + some of these other cards:
Humility, Runed Halo, Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere

Disenchant + Chalice@2 = fail. Aura costs 1 more, has a better ability and is a permanent. It's also free to play the activated ability so you can feel free to tap out.

This deck doesn't have problems with decks that abuse the graveyard, and often popping a relic screws you over. 3 Defense Grid is adequate with Trinisphere. Humility is really bomb against decks like Survival, and often turning Tarmogoyf and Mongoose into 1/1's buys you enough time to fix the game state (Play Prison or Moat, Wastelock them, block with Factory). Runed Halo can stop said Goyf and 'Nought forever. Sphere is another card to bring in against Combo and Burn/Sligh.

[scrow213]

This list is teh jank. Tangle Wire isn't nearly as good as the other cards mentioned 2 posts above. My suggestions:

-1 Flagstones/ +1 Wasteland
-3 Tangle Wire/ +1 Chalice, +1 Smokestack, +1 Crucible
-3 Oblivion Ring/ +3 Something Better

O Ring just doesn't do what you want it to do. There is already enough enchantment kill in the format to deal with Ring pretty well. The only time O Ring is good is against a deck like Threshold or Dreadstill when you get Ring to stick. Even then, it's not stellar. In my list that card is Exalted Angel, but it can be other stuff too.

-3 Disenchant/ +3 Aura of Silence
-4 Relic of Progenitus, -1 Defense Grid/ + some of these other cards:
Humility, Runed Halo, Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere

Disenchant + Chalice@2 = fail. Aura costs 1 more, has a better ability and is a permanent. It's also free to play the activated ability so you can feel free to tap out.

This deck doesn't have problems with decks that abuse the graveyard, and often popping a relic screws you over. 3 Defense Grid is adequate with Trinisphere. Humility is really bomb against decks like Survival, and often turning Tarmogoyf and Mongoose into 1/1's buys you enough time to fix the game state (Play Prison or Moat, Wastelock them, block with Factory). Runed Halo can stop said Goyf and 'Nought forever. Sphere is another card to bring in against Combo and Burn/Sligh.

Well thank you for the assistance! I love this deck and want to make it everything it can be! I will certainly make the following changes first off:

-3 Tangle Wire
-1 Flagstones of Trokair
+1 Wasteland
+1 Chalice of the Void
+1 Smokestack
+1 Crucible of Worlds

As for the SB, I threw it together off the top of my head. It seems like the deck would struggle with Ichorid, so that's why the Relics are in there (originally Tormod's Crypt). I will also change those Disenchants out. I think I only had them because I don't have Aura on hand at the moment, but I will pick them up.

The rest of the SB however, I am not sure how to change. I don't need Trinisphere SB as I run 4 MD (as I am sure you know, it's a house). What matches do I want Sphere of Resistance for? I will pick those other cards up, but I don't know what my SB should look like.

Finally, how do you SB? I never know what my SB plans are for various decks. I end up screwing something up when I sideboard, so I want to know what cards go in and out for what matches?

Thanks a lot to everyone! I have always wanted to play Stax, and I can actually afford to play it in Legacy!

[Misplayer]

@Patrick:

While I agree that Tangle Wire is sub-optimal, I wouldn't classify the list as jank. Also, your logic about Oblivion Ring doesn't make sense to me. You claim it doesn't do what you want it to do? It does almost everything I want it to do aside from remove lands. It's the catch all for things this deck cannot answer. What do you do game 1 if your opponent drops a Crucible against you? Your whole gameplan just went out the window because you have no answer for it. You also said "Runed Halo can stop said Goyf and 'Nought forever." It dies to the same enchantment removal as O-Ring. It stops single large beaters as well as Halo, but you obviously sacrifice the ability to deal with multiples in exchange for versatility. Stax is a very very proactive deck but you need reactive answers to resolved threats, which is why I play 4 Oblivion Ring. Magus/Prison + Armageddon is nice but requires a big mana/turn investment. Oblivion Ring is the perfect stop-gap card for Stax. O-Ring is also very valuable when you have an active Smokestack and you're trying to wipe their board. With it you can essentially accelerate their permanent destruction and can often give back a useless permanent if you need to sac the ring eventually. Lastly, if your opponent is Gripping your O-Rings then they're not Gripping your lock pieces.

Aura of Silence is a strong sideboard choice and Disenchant is questionable, but don't rule out Seal of Cleansing. It can answer an early Dreadnought through Daze much easier than Aura, and double-white can often be troublesome. That said, I recently cut 2 Seal of Cleansing for Runed Halo. For reference, here's my current SB config:

4 Rule of Law/CoP: Red (meta choice)
2 Defense Grid (Found this to often be Trinisphere 5-6, so I don't feel that more than 2 are needed)
3 Runed Halo
3 Aura of Silence
2 Suppression Field
1 Ghostly Prison/Smokestack/Trinisphere/Whatever I'm playing 3x main

I also do not agree with 4x Wastelands. Between Mox Diamond and City of Traitors, this deck is very very land hungry, and often the mana produced by wasteland is more crucial than the effect. I do not believe Wasteland is effective as disruption in this deck, but it's synergy with Crucible and Smokestack make it an auto-include. I've rarely found myself Wasting lands early game because I need the mana to play lock pieces. I'm from the school of thought that the benefit of 4x Flagstones (more consistently recovering from Armageddon and hitting land drops under Smokestack) greatly outweighs the drawback (Legendarity/Legendariness(??)). I know many others swear by 3x Flagstones, so it's really a personal choice.

[scrow213]

I agree with a lot of what you said as well. I always liked the 4x Flagstones, as they are invaluable at recovering from Armageddon, as well as great fodder for a Smokestack. Wasteland I often play as a mana source instead of disruption, but it is handy to have that land-destruction option as well.

I am now on the fence about Oblivion Ring. I have used it to remove an opposing Crucible in the past, and it is great at dealing with single troublesome threats.

Edit: Fixed.

[Mostly_Harmless]

I'm assuming you mean Oblivion Ring? I've become kind of attached to it too. My metagame is a little stunted, but it's very useful to be able to get rid of opposing crucibles, planeswalkers and suchlike.

[scrow213]

I'm assuming you mean Oblivion Ring? I've become kind of attached to it too. My metagame is a little stunted, but it's very useful to be able to get rid of opposing crucibles, planeswalkers and suchlike.

I agree. It makes great spot removal, even if it is not a for-sure solution. What are some of the tough matchups for Stax, and how do we prepare/play these matches? I would like to finish building this and start prepping for some tournaments, and would like some extra information. Thanks!

[ParkerLewis]

Didn't really know where to place this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22804) so I thought I'd drop it here. First place in a 65 player tournament in France apparently.

That's... interesting, to say the least.

Tfk in particular got me thinking. Wouldn't Compulsive Research be superior here ? We do have a lot of land, and would even be able to get it back with a Crucible.

Other reckless idea I just thought of. The thing this deck is doing the most is taxing (magus, smokestack) and / or preventing the opponent from using his cards (chaice, trinisphere, prison). Now, all that stuff is basically going on by itself. My point is... wouldn't Meditate's drawback be a lot less hard on us than on any other kind of deck, barring combo ? It's not like the taxing on the opponent would stop if we were to skip a turn. Actually, it would even be a nice bonus when a Smokestack is on the table (a free additional upkeep of sacrificing on the opponent's side).

I don't have that much time to extensively test this (with the repercussion of a splash on the mana), but on paper, i like it a lot.

[jazzykat]

I haven't played this deck lately but I do find Tangle Wire to be pretty darn powerful still. It's synergy with the rest of the deck is obvious but it really is like a timewalk or 2 in the early game against all of the control decks.

Now I' don't recall the salient points against it in this thread as I haven't read it in so long but I do agree that in a vacuum a card like oblivion ring is better, however the synergy with smokestack, trinisphere, ghostly prison, and defense grid from the sideboard do I think warrant a second look especially with so much of the DTB metagame being permanent and land light.

[scrow213]

I haven't played this deck lately but I do find Tangle Wire to be pretty darn powerful still. It's synergy with the rest of the deck is obvious but it really is like a timewalk or 2 in the early game against all of the control decks.

Now I' don't recall the salient points against it in this thread as I haven't read it in so long but I do agree that in a vacuum a card like oblivion ring is better, however the synergy with smokestack, trinisphere, ghostly prison, and defense grid from the sideboard do I think warrant a second look especially with so much of the DTB metagame being permanent and land light.

That's how I felt too. I mean, here is how I see it:

We always tap fewer permanents, as we can remove a counter before tapping. The Tangle Wire itself can be tapped as well, so it is already 2 less than they are tapping. We have other permanents we can tap with no ill effects (Chalice, Crucible, Smokestack) as well as lands that produce 2 mana, so we can afford, more than other decks, to tap land if needed.

I personally think it is a great card in the deck, but other people don't think so.

[Mostly_Harmless]

I haven't tested it in this deck, but Tangle Wire has served me very well in other decks. I use it in a Braids prison deck, and it's amazing at buying enough time to get Braids online unmolested. I imagine it would serve the same purpose here. One minor issue is that trinisphere turns off when tapped, so you would have to avoid tapping it. Honestly, that will almost never come up, but I thought I'd mention it.

The important question is: what would you cut for it? I suppose if the meta was much more control oriented, you could replace some combination of magus or prison, but most of the maindeck feels a little more important than Tangle Wire.

[scrow213]

I haven't tested it in this deck, but Tangle Wire has served me very well in other decks. I use it in a Braids prison deck, and it's amazing at buying enough time to get Braids online unmolested. I imagine it would serve the same purpose here. One minor issue is that trinisphere turns off when tapped, so you would have to avoid tapping it. Honestly, that will almost never come up, but I thought I'd mention it.

The important question is: what would you cut for it? I suppose if the meta was much more control oriented, you could replace some combination of magus or prison, but most of the maindeck feels a little more important than Tangle Wire.

That is the problem. I don't know how else to fit it in there. It does suck that Trinisphere has to be untapped, but if you are smart enough to play Stax well, you are smart enough to not play Tangle Wire without having enough permanents to tap without screwing your sphere.

[scrow213]

Sorry to post so often, but I am sitting at work, bored, and I am in love with this deck! Here is my newest build I am testing:

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [REW] Wasteland
3 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
7 [TSP] Plains (4)

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle

// Spells
3 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [US] Smokestack
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
4 [AT] Armageddon
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [DS] Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [RAV] Suppression Field
SB: 3 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 3 [TE] Humility
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 2 [UL] Defense Grid

I really wish MWS was a better place to test, but I see a lot of scrubby decks on here...

Anyway, I like the consistency of upping the various cards to 4-ofs. I do miss Tangle Wire, but oh well. I think Oblivion Ring needs to stay. I have used it so far to remove Back to Basics, which is rough to play around, and a Meddling Mage that was causing me a headache.

Suppression Field is pretty great. Slows fetchlands, EE, Deed, equipment, lots of annoying things.

Any other thoughts? Anyone want to test some good decks against me?

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I really wish MWS was a better place to test, but I see a lot of scrubby decks on here...


Any other thoughts? Anyone want to test some good decks against me?

Sorry, this is sort of a noobish question, but:

How does MWS work anyhow? I hear a lot of people talk about it around here, but I'm still not exactly sure what the deal is... Do you have to buy the digital 'cards' like Magic Online, or is it like a free program to play decks online that you want to test but don't necessarily own all the cards for? (Because that would rawk)

[DeathScythe]

Sorry, this is sort of a noobish question, but:

How does MWS work anyhow? I hear a lot of people talk about it around here, but I'm still not exactly sure what the deal is... Do you have to buy the digital 'cards' like Magic Online, or is it like a free program to play decks online that you want to test but don't necessarily own all the cards for? (Because that would rawk)

it's a free program where you can build decks, golfish or play online with. If you download the program it'll explain itself mostly.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

it's a free program where you can build decks, golfish or play online with. If you download the program it'll explain itself mostly.

Whaaaaat??? YyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

This is what my life has been missing. But damn... now I really won't get shit done.

[DeathScythe]

Whaaaaat??? YyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

This is what my life has been missing. But damn... now I really won't get shit done.

when you meet the numerous n00bs/arogant people/people who make theirown rulezz you'll prob think different...

[Patrick]

Well thank you for the assistance! I love this deck and want to make it everything it can be! I will certainly make the following changes first off:

-3 Tangle Wire
-1 Flagstones of Trokair
+1 Wasteland
+1 Chalice of the Void
+1 Smokestack
+1 Crucible of Worlds

As for the SB, I threw it together off the top of my head. It seems like the deck would struggle with Ichorid, so that's why the Relics are in there (originally Tormod's Crypt). I will also change those Disenchants out. I think I only had them because I don't have Aura on hand at the moment, but I will pick them up.

The rest of the SB however, I am not sure how to change. I don't need Trinisphere SB as I run 4 MD (as I am sure you know, it's a house). What matches do I want Sphere of Resistance for? I will pick those other cards up, but I don't know what my SB should look like.

Finally, how do you SB? I never know what my SB plans are for various decks. I end up screwing something up when I sideboard, so I want to know what cards go in and out for what matches?

Thanks a lot to everyone! I have always wanted to play Stax, and I can actually afford to play it in Legacy!

I wrote a primer on this deck a few pages back explaining various strategies and sideboard tactics in something like 14 matchups. Maybe if you go back and read it one person will have found it useful.

Sphere of Resistance is there to slow down matchups that move too fast for you to stabilize in. Things like sligh, burn, anything with red cards. It can come in against counterspell.dec, but it's not as big as Defense Grid is.

Although, in a lot of matchups Defense Grid isn't that amazing, here's my hypothetical play. We'll assume this is game 2, since Grid is in the deck, so we know what kind of hand we need to draw in to. Our opponent is playing something like GoyfTop, or Threshold. The big question is, what did we take out? I don't use Defense Grid, so I'll pretend my Exalted Angel's are Defense Grids. You'll have to use your own sideboard, because the comparison isn't fair here.

Ancient Tomb
Wasteland
Plains
Mox Diamond
Chalice of the Void
Crucible of Worlds
Defense Grid

Turn 1 Defense Grid!

Turn 1: Tomb, Mox Pitching Plains, Defense Grid. We'll assume the opponent has Force of Will. If they don't you're in good shape.

Turn 2: Crucible of Worlds. Break.

This is a difficult decision. We pitched the plains because A) We don't need the WW any time soom and B) Our opponent is sure to counter Crucible if they see Wasteland in our graveyard. By not playing Wasteland we can tempt them into letting Crucible resolve because barring this circumstance, it's a harmless card and they have bigger problems to counter (See: Armageddon). If we play Wasteland we're immune to Daze but they may have Force of Will or Counterspell, a card otherwise reserved a different play.

A number of factors effect this play. Since nonbasics are rampant throughout Legacy, we'll assume the Wastelock is game-breaking here. What did our opponent pitch to Force? Did he have Daze game 1? What was his turn 1 play? All of these should weigh in before we decide to play Crucible or not.

There is a plan B. Since we're certain that a recurring Wasteland will put our opponent out of the game for a while, we need Crucible to resolve. We can instead play Chalice of the Void this turn. No blue deck wants to let Chalice@1 resolve, and this play is good under normal circumstances. The play probably gets better in this situation seeing as how if the Chalice gets countered we can safely bet the Crucible will resolve. Rarely will your opponent let Chalice@1 resolve while they have a counter in hand, unless they can't play it. There's the chance that he needs UU for Counterspell, or could draw another counter spell of the top. What do you guys think?


@Patrick:

While I agree that Tangle Wire is sub-optimal, I wouldn't classify the list as jank. Also, your logic about Oblivion Ring doesn't make sense to me. You claim it doesn't do what you want it to do? It does almost everything I want it to do aside from remove lands. It's the catch all for things this deck cannot answer. What do you do game 1 if your opponent drops a Crucible against you? Your whole gameplan just went out the window because you have no answer for it. You also said "Runed Halo can stop said Goyf and 'Nought forever." It dies to the same enchantment removal as O-Ring. It stops single large beaters as well as Halo, but you obviously sacrifice the ability to deal with multiples in exchange for versatility. Stax is a very very proactive deck but you need reactive answers to resolved threats, which is why I play 4 Oblivion Ring. Magus/Prison + Armageddon is nice but requires a big mana/turn investment. Oblivion Ring is the perfect stop-gap card for Stax. O-Ring is also very valuable when you have an active Smokestack and you're trying to wipe their board. With it you can essentially accelerate their permanent destruction and can often give back a useless permanent if you need to sac the ring eventually. Lastly, if your opponent is Gripping your O-Rings then they're not Gripping your lock pieces.

Aura of Silence is a strong sideboard choice and Disenchant is questionable, but don't rule out Seal of Cleansing. It can answer an early Dreadnought through Daze much easier than Aura, and double-white can often be troublesome. That said, I recently cut 2 Seal of Cleansing for Runed Halo. For reference, here's my current SB config:

4 Rule of Law/CoP: Red (meta choice)
2 Defense Grid (Found this to often be Trinisphere 5-6, so I don't feel that more than 2 are needed)
3 Runed Halo
3 Aura of Silence
2 Suppression Field
1 Ghostly Prison/Smokestack/Trinisphere/Whatever I'm playing 3x main

I also do not agree with 4x Wastelands. Between Mox Diamond and City of Traitors, this deck is very very land hungry, and often the mana produced by wasteland is more crucial than the effect. I do not believe Wasteland is effective as disruption in this deck, but it's synergy with Crucible and Smokestack make it an auto-include. I've rarely found myself Wasting lands early game because I need the mana to play lock pieces. I'm from the school of thought that the benefit of 4x Flagstones (more consistently recovering from Armageddon and hitting land drops under Smokestack) greatly outweighs the drawback (Legendarity/Legendariness(??)). I know many others swear by 3x Flagstones, so it's really a personal choice.

Thanks for the feedback Misplayer. To answer your questions about Oblivion Ring: I used it once in the main and I never went back. I fount O-Ring was a temporary solution to a permanent problem (HA! Get it, permanent!?). Saying I Ringed out a Goyf or Tombstalker or whatever, my opponent drew into Krosan Grip eventually and destroyed my Ring. The problem is Stax is an agonizingly slow deck, and even if your opponent has only 2 cards that can answer O-Ring, chances are they will find it before you can win. This has bought you a lot of time to find lock pieces, but your opponent now has a lot of mana and a hand full of permission. I understand Halo has these same vulnerabilities. Another hypothetical play:

I dunno, we'll say turn 6 or something.

Opponent has Tarmogoyf in play. It's beating you up, or down, whichever.

We topdeck: Oblivion Ring. Cast it removing Goofy.

A) If our opponent topdecks another Goyf, the beats continue and we'll surely die.

B) If our opponent topdecks a threat of a different spice, the beats continue and we lose.

C) If our opponent topdecks enchantment removal, the beats continue and we die.

In these 3 situations, Oblivion Ring loses each time. If we replace O-Ring with Runed Halo, A no longer applies. We're giving up the ability to deal with noncreature things, and Oblivion Ring is sauce against a Dreadnought. Like I said, personal style. This is my logic, yours may differ. Please, share.

A little note about Wasteland: It breaks games. A recurring Wasteland has won me about 30% of the games we've been testing for Grand Prix: Chicago. An early lockdown can wreck a deck that relies on a lot of nonbasics, and with Suppression Field you can even hit fetchlands! This feels really good. I run only the 3 Flagstones, and I've never found myself running a 4th. I urge you guys to take the 4th Flags out and replace them with something like Kor Haven, Maze of Ith, Horizion Canopy, Ghostly Prison, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, whatever. I promise the deck will feel well oiled.

[scrow213]

Ok, with the Runed Halo and Oblivion Ring scenario laid out, what about this situation:

You have Trinisphere and Crucible out, Armageddon in hand. You want to take over now, but your opponent has Crucible too! Runed Halo certainly won't do a damn bit of good. So what can you do now?

[DeathScythe]

What do you guys think?

I think this really depends on a lot of things, for example the lvl of player, his reaction to the grid (some people can easily be read pokerstyle!), which land they played and so on.

If they play a fetch I think i'll lay down my wasteland and cast the crucible saving 1 mana to pay a daze. If they have to Force it their hand is down to 3 and 2 forces + 1 random + 1 good card in the RFG zone (mostly as they are forced to pitch a good card). If they daze it i'll just tap my wasteland and go wasteland his ass the next turn.

If they played a dual it's a no-brain wasteland their dual, watch them bainstorm and play a CoW afterwards. This makes sure their only possible counter is force and they will prob pitch something good again.


About runed halo vs oblivion ring I think you missed a few points.

Oblivion ring can target any non-land permanent, this included survival, opposing crucible, you name them.
Runed halo can also name non-permanents such as thoughtseize/hymn/duress and tendrills of agony. Also the thing costs WW, most people complain they don't get this so often...

Personally I prefer the O-ring as they are more versatile and are better mainboard. The possibility that you're facing a deck with multiple threats is bigger than the chance that you're facing say TA, in this situations you prefer O-ring.
I do keep runed halos SB in case I do face a deck with 2-3 different threats such as TA, dreadstill, TES and painter/grindstone.deck for example.

[Misplayer]

Patrick,
A very well thought-out response, thanks for that. Three comments:

1) Defense Grid: Doesn't this card essentially act as another Trinisphere, but more narrow? Most decks that you'll bring it in against play strictly free counters, so with a Trinisphere in play Defense Grid does very little. That's why I only board 2.

2) O-Ring: I wasn't trying to say that it's as good as Runed Halo in those situations, and I don't believe that one replaces the other. In games 2/3 versus decks like Team America and Dreadstill, I bring in Halo as a supplement to my reactive/answer package. In the situation you presented, with your build, what is your answer to a fat 'Goyf/Tombstalker/Dreadnought (which I feel are the perceived must-have-an-answer-for cards in the format)?

3) Flagstones: What is your current mana-base? For white I have 6 Plains, 4 Flagstones and 1 Canopy (plus Diamonds). I wouldn't go any lower than that and I don't even play Angel! Have you had issues hitting :w: or :w::w: with your setup?

[jazzykat]

The important question is: what would you cut for it? I suppose if the meta was much more control oriented, you could replace some combination of magus or prison, but most of the maindeck feels a little more important than Tangle Wire.

That is the only question with regards to Tangle Wire. My answer is that it is a relatively narrow solution that as you pointed out would normally cause you to cede some ground on the swarm/creature control aspect which is normally the tough part for stax.

If you are facing Thresh/U Control.dec round after round then there is no doubt in my mind that wire is better.

[scrow213]

Another note about Defense Grid: It is actually better than Trinisphere against most blue control. Trinisphere makes FoW, Counterspell, Daze, etc cost 3 mana, but if they play anything that is not free (not FoW or Daze), it costs more through Defense Grid. Counterspell becomes 3UU instead of 1UU. Just a little side note.

I still think I am going to run my Oblivion Rings main, as I think they are too good to not play.

Edit: Is there any reason this is not considered a Deck to Beat?

[Mordel]

People tend to run 3spheres in the main and grids in the sb...

On the opponent with a crucible question: get a smoker out eventually and use flagstones to support a heavily ramped up smoker to lock them out of the game.

With sixty-five pages of content, if you are legitimately interested in the archetype, you can probably read every second of fifth page from the start and skip around to various reports etc.

Don't take this the wrong way, scrow, but lots of your questions are easily answered by reading or by your own results, which can be implemented to contribute to discussion, as opposed to getting people to hand the answers to you. You're doing yourself and others to a far lesser degree an injustice.

Read the DtB guidelines and you will have your answer as to why geddon stax is not a DtB. It seems to be showing up more frequently though, according to DC, so it may be moving in the near future.

[scrow213]

People tend to run 3spheres in the main and grids in the sb...

On the opponent with a crucible question: get a smoker out eventually and use flagstones to support a heavily ramped up smoker to lock them out of the game.

With sixty-five pages of content, if you are legitimately interested in the archetype, you can probably read every second of fifth page from the start and skip around to various reports etc.

Don't take this the wrong way, scrow, but lots of your questions are easily answered by reading or by your own results, which can be implemented to contribute to discussion, as opposed to getting people to hand the answers to you. You're doing yourself and others to a far lesser degree an injustice.

Read the DtB guidelines and you will have your answer as to why geddon stax is not a DtB. It seems to be showing up more frequently though, according to DC, so it may be moving in the near future.

So I could read every second or fifth page and miss a lot of information, I could spend all day reading 65 pages of a thread, or I could ask questions of the people that have been around since it started. Seems like I am not wasting much more than a few moments of anyone's time here... I mean, it's like saying "You are trying to learn mechanics? Don't ask questions, go read everything written before you!"

[scrow213]

Anyway, sorry about that last post. I hate being called lazy, which is basically what was said. I don't have the patience to read through 65 pages of information, so I thought it was ok to ask for some assistance.

I just tested against Goblins, and rocked it. First game was just a fast lock that he couldn't race. Second game I lost, mainly because I mulled to 4 and still had nothing. Third game I won on the back of Chalice @ 1 opening turn, then ended a few turns later with:

Chalice @ 1
Smokestack @ 1
Trinisphere
Magus of the Tabernacle
Ghostly Prison

Dropped an Armageddon, fetched a plains, he lost everything and conceded. He showed me his hand after the game and he had:

Aether Vial
2x Goblin Lackey
2x Mogg Fanatic
Anarchy (which he intended to play the following turn)

Anyway, anyone up for some MWS testing? I want to try this against some better decks instead of the garbage that most people have on MWS.

Edit:

Tested against 43Lands.dec and that was interesting. It was hard getting any form of lock down with the number of lands they play, so I just waited until after Manabond dropped their hand and used Geddon to wipe everything out. I eventually won the match thanks largely to Suppression Field. Both 2nd and 3rd games, I got 2 of them out and used Armageddon hard and aggressively to stop their buildup.

Second game I won simply due to Suppression Field slowing his cycling, fetching, Wastelanding, etc. I won (luckily) by decking him, because I kept him off balance and by the time he drew Academy Ruins (to prevent being decked) he had no blue mana sources.

Third game I was able to Armageddon twice, get Trinisphere out, 2 Suppresion Fields, and use Crucible and a lot of mana to Waste lock him out.

[Patrick]

My Manabase

This question has come up a number of times, so I'll answer it again.

7 Plains
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Kor Haven
1 Horizon Canopy

Horizon Canopy is still being tested, it replaced Ghost Quarter in my old build. Sometimes the Strip Mine effect was good, but having Canopy allows me to draw my way out of a stalemate with Crucible. I can't decide if it's good or note yet.

I've heard both sides of the Flagstones discussion and I'll never be convinced 4 is the right number, just as 3 Wasteland isn't enough. Feel free to discuss it amongst yourselves, count me out.

Why Defense Grid isn't Trinispheres # 5-X

Trinisphere makes all spells cost 3. Defense Grid makes spells played during an opponents turn cost 3 more. In this deck it's not uncommon to be able to keep an opponent off 3 mana for an extended period of time. Defense Grid means that Brainstorms and Swords and whatnot are happening during the main phase, Trinisphere makes sure they're not happening at all.

Oblivion Ring: To play or not to play

The only time I see Oblivion Ring being good is Game 1 when they don't have any enchantment hate maindecked. Seeing as how every deck is bringing in something to deal with Prison, Moat, Suppression Field whatever.card, O-Ring is another thing that it kills. In this situation, they've already landed a threat, Krosan Grip is uncounterable and their threat comes back. Otherwise it buys time at best. The way I deal with nonland permanents is called Smokestack. Smokestack + Armageddon is good. If you know that's the plan, ramp your stack to 2 if you can afford it.

[Mordel]

Scrow,

Sorry about before. Countless people have "leafed" through this thread though before you stumbled acorss it, myself included. When I am looking at every fifth page or so, I will tend to back up a page or what have you to see what is going on etc. Not a tricky concept at all.

Some folks(me mostly, I guess?) look at this thread when a new comment or two pops up and hope that an innovation has happened...only to see that some dude has just discovered the archetype and is posting a list that is almost identical to every list before it, minus the sideboard which they want people to give them insight on or whatever even though they should know what they need in their sideboard better than anyone else considering their meta etc.

I know these threads aren't just for innovation, but honestly I have been seeing the same questions/lists get posted on this thread over and over for like six months that I have been reading through it and that is only six months or so. When you look back from the start, it gets kind of surreal.

[scrow213]

Scrow,

Sorry about before. Countless people have "leafed" through this thread though before you stumbled acorss it, myself included. When I am looking at every fifth page or so, I will tend to back up a page or what have you to see what is going on etc. Not a tricky concept at all.

Some folks(me mostly, I guess?) look at this thread when a new comment or two pops up and hope that an innovation has happened...only to see that some dude has just discovered the archetype and is posting a list that is almost identical to every list before it, minus the sideboard which they want people to give them insight on or whatever even though they should know what they need in their sideboard better than anyone else considering their meta etc.

I know these threads aren't just for innovation, but honestly I have been seeing the same questions/lists get posted on this thread over and over for like six months that I have been reading through it and that is only six months or so. When you look back from the start, it gets kind of surreal.

Ok, I absolutely understand. Also, I know that I have posted a LOT recently. I am just very excited about the deck, and just rediscovered it. I guess I haven't added anything new to the deck at all...

I was thinking, and this has probably been discussed and dismissed, so I apologize beforehand, but Ghost Quarter seems like some good. Many decks run almost 0 basics, so I thought we could take out the 1 or 2 they may actually run and then it becomes a Strip Mine.

[f|i[p]]

The only difference I see in the list are angels. Having the same list being talked about is not much of a problem. The thread is not only meant for the long time stax players but for the new ones as well. Im just hoping that new players read at least part of the thread before throwing out conclusions or questions.

@ scrow,

goblins is usually a positive match up for stax unless they go super fast.

43 lands however is quite a bad match up. Its good to see that you won that match.

@ ghost quarter, it has been talked about before, sometimes you wish it was a wasteland, and rarely will it change the outcome of a match.Its not a good risk to take unless you are quite sure most of the decks in your metagame dont have basics as its going to be sad to see your ghost quarter do nothing.

IM actually interested in the U/w build, as it plays just like armageddon stax.

[scrow213]

;316259']The only difference I see in the list are angels. Having the same list being talked about is not much of a problem. The thread is not only meant for the long time stax players but for the new ones as well. Im just hoping that new players read at least part of the thread before throwing out conclusions or questions.

@ scrow,

goblins is usually a positive match up for stax unless they go super fast.

43 lands however is quite a bad match up. Its good to see that you won that match.

@ ghost quarter, it has been talked about before, sometimes you wish it was a wasteland, and rarely will it change the outcome of a match.Its not a good risk to take unless you are quite sure most of the decks in your metagame dont have basics as its going to be sad to see your ghost quarter do nothing.

IM actually interested in the U/w build, as it plays just like armageddon stax.

Glad to know that I won a tough matchup! I remember there being talk of splashing blue for a long time, but I thought I recall that also being dismissed, and I can't remember why.

I tested against Ichorid tonight. I think that is a decent matchup for Stax. I had a fairly easy time of it, although I may have been lucky. First turn Trinisphere or Chalice @1 seems to do a good job buying time, and Ghostly Prison seems to seal the deal game 1. Game 2 brings in some enchantment removal, but an early Chalice @2 stops that as well.

I really love this deck, and I would be interested in a blue splash, simply for drawing, Academy Ruins, and Intuition.

[Patrick]

Glad to know that I won a tough matchup! I remember there being talk of splashing blue for a long time, but I thought I recall that also being dismissed, and I can't remember why.

I tested against Ichorid tonight. I think that is a decent matchup for Stax. I had a fairly easy time of it, although I may have been lucky. First turn Trinisphere or Chalice @1 seems to do a good job buying time, and Ghostly Prison seems to seal the deal game 1. Game 2 brings in some enchantment removal, but an early Chalice @2 stops that as well.

I really love this deck, and I would be interested in a blue splash, simply for drawing, Academy Ruins, and Intuition.

Ichorid, The plays to Make

Here are the bombs you can play against Ichorid strategies turn 1:

Trinisphere
Sphere of Resistance
Ghostly Prison
Chalice of the Void @ 0

While Chalice at 1 does stop things like a Breakthrough, Cabal Therapy and Putrid Imp, it doesn't stop Breakthrough or Cabal Therapy. Breakthrough has an X in it's mana cost, which means it costs whatever they want it to above 0. Cabal Therapy is countered, but the triggers they want from sacrificing a guy are why that card is in the deck. Hitting a random card or 2 is just a 100% bonus.

Chalice @ 0 stops the most important thing Ichorid can do: start up. Countering Lions-Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal. Whoops. After reviewing Deckcheck for recent Ichorid lists, Chalice goes to 1! I forgot about Careful Study, and the only free card is LED. While stopping LED is good, stopping more spells is better. Clearly we want Trinisphere or Prison here.

Little Red Men

Goblins. At a first glance this matchup seems un-lose-able for Stax. Playing against this matchup no less than 25 times, I say: Stax can lose. This matchup is something like 60-40 preboard in favor of Stax. While we have tools to slow them down, then grind them to a complete halt, Goblins has little red dudes. A lot of them. Even with something like a Ghostly Prison, them paying 4 to attack with Ringleader and Piledriver is often enough damage. This isn't taking into account sometimes you don't draw Prison, then you usually lose.

Trinisphere: Goblins has a great curve, probably in the top 3 decks of the format. Trinisphere can really stall them out until turn 3, especially on the play, but they can work around it. If they resolve an AEther Vial on turn 1 before you can land Sphere your play becomes hardly noticeable. Not to mention they have things like Goblin Tutor and Tin-Street Hooligan. That card can really mess you up. Even after you've stopped them from attacking, they have Siege-Gang Commander. This guy is something that needs to be stopped. Suppression Field and Armageddon really shine here. Hopefully you draw them before you're shot to death.

Here are some things I take into account when I know Goblins is across the table:

1) Don't keep a hand that has exactly 1 good card. 6 lands and a Ghostly Prison is going to put you at the mercy of your topdecks, and Goblins can do it better than you.

2) Don't keep a hand that relies on a Turn 1 or 2 Crucible to keep you on mana. If they Tin-Street your bowl away and you're stuck on Mox Diamond and Mishra's Factory, you're going to lose.

3) Don't play Smokestack. Unless they have a low permanent count and no lands, don't play it. It'll mess with your card and it won't affect them at all. Board this card out.

4) If you run it, don't lean on Humility too much. A ton of 1/1's can and will still get there.

5) Put Chalice at 1 if you can. A lot of Goblins players will keep a hand with a lot of 1 drops assuming the speed will put you out of the game. It's fun and mean spirited to play Chalice@1 and see your opponent set 5 cards down.

That stuff being said, Goblins/Stax is really in Stax's favor. Almost every card in the deck does something bad to Goblins. You just have to hope they don't have a turn 3 kill.

An Ethereal 25 Cents

For the first 6 months I played Stax, Ghost Quarter was my 61st card. It did about what I expected: Not a whole lot, and once in a while it was a blowout. The problem was that I couldn't cut anything for it, and as a 1 of it wasn't reliable in the slightest. I began to doubt if Ghost Quarter was good enough, because it was so situational and I couldn't add any more. I had done some reading about Horizon Canopy, and I made the switch. Canopy makes white mana, which does come into use, and the card draw is useful more often than hitting basic land when they don't have any left. Under Crucible I prefer having 2 cards a turn than Ghost Quarter's effect. With Path to Exile coming into the game soon, maybe some Swords to Plowshares will be replaced and thus decks will run 1 or 2 basics. This greatly reduces the benefit of Ghost Quarter. For now, I can see the merit of the card, it's a personal choice.

[Patrick]

Also, for any of you who have been playing the deck for a while, I ask this. What's the plan against CounterSlivers?

[Mordel]

The same as just about any other aggro/ctrl deck with daze and fow basically.

Try run them out of permission by baiting them with a first turn CotV that shuts down draw/vial, try to O-ring vials and make everything lead up to a magus followed by a geddon with a crucible on the table?

It's a fairly good match for me and I play a build that is theoretically worse against slivers than the traditional build.

[Skeggi]

Try and get a CotV@2. It basically shuts them down. I often try and lure out a counter with an Armageddon, followed next turn by Chalice@2.

[jazzykat]

As stated above CoTV at 2 is gg IF they don't land a vial. My suggestion is CoTV @ 1, and then violently assault their manabase until you can get the CoTV @ 2.

[Patrick]

I played 5 games against Meathooks, each game he countered my relevant card and beat me up with Winged Sliver, Muscle Sliver and other stuff. Sometimes Crystalline Sliver, but all that did was attack.

[Patrick]

Also, in the many months I've been playing with this deck, I've never once played against Leyline of the Void. What's the deal with this?

[Mordel]

Flash got banned and dredge is a fairly obscure deck now imo.

You need to step up your game against aggro ctrl matchups. Losing against slivers due to their counter magic package is indicative of a lack of experience against similar decks. In my experience, once you have played one X blue aggro/ctrl deck with vials, you've played them all.

[B4L4]

As far i as remember, CounterSlivers as always been a diffucult MU for me with Stacks. (if CounterSlivers player counter relevant spells obviously)

Vial make our manadenial strategy less effective, crystallin shut O.Ring down, and they have Winged which make Magus / Mishra block or Moat less effective.

An post-board, if they draw Harmonic Sliver, we loose

Chalice @2 is not going to happend that often, and is relevant only if they don't have a vial or don't already have 2-3 creatures in play.

[Mordel]

Powder keg, 3sphere(all of their counters are alternate cost ones generally), CotV, Magus, O-Ring on a vial, wasteland, geddon, prison(lesser extent, but they will counter once one is on the table because that is the smart thing to do a lot of the time), taber land(often a singleton that they can do nothing about) and uhm random sideboard stuff like maybe a wrath or something. Oh! Smokestack can also be troublesome for them as is CoW.

That's like...almost the entire deck and a few common sidebaord cards right there that hurts them potentially. The unfortunate thing is that a lot of those cards need to be complemented by another of whatever to be more effective in the pursuit of victory.

Admittedly, I haven't played against slivers with a normal build of geddon stax in a while, but I have with rich people stax and I have a good game even with moats which are often dead cards quickly depending on whether or not I have shut down their digging with a CotV at one and how lucky they get with drawing a winged sliver which is usually a card that has three copies if I recall.

My trick against decks like doing casting really risky bait, like a smokestack early when I don't have a CoW out, but if lands cooperate, I'll be able to cast one if I topdeck or a humility that looks like it has been cast out of sheer ignorance etc. I try to waste their counters as quickly as possible and hopefully have something left in my hand that is good when they run out of counters or get some good shit off of the top of my deck. This is a very risky strategy, but that is actually how I beat dreadstill most of the time as well as thresh and such. I have won lots of games with risky smoker plays though.

Harmonic sliver is just rough though. I still have a good record versus slivers either way.

[Patrick]

I guess I'll have to play a lot more games against Thresh/Dreadstill. I seem to have a horrible track record against decks that run FoW and Daze. I always seem to have my good cards countered. What pointers do you guys have against these decks?

[scrow213]

I have had a terrible time with Stifle Naught. As far as the matches go, the only thing I try is wait until you have 3 mana available (first or second turn) and go for Chalice @1. If you have 1 mana left open, you at least remove Daze from the equation, leaving just FoW to worry about.

I also like to drop Smokestack as bait, because if they counter it, they lost a counter, and if they don't, we can work around it much better than they can, so you can use it to take control. Really, FoW is the big problem. Once you side in Defense Grids and Sphere of Resistance, it becomes a much better match, with lots of redundancy.

The problem I have with Naught is that it is just too big a beatstick. If it lands, it is nearly impossible to deal with. And every time I have played against it, they had MD EE to remove Chalices. I don't know what to do to stop that. I debated Null Rods in the side, as it only hits our Moxen. Thoughts?

[Skeggi]

I guess I'll have to play a lot more games against Thresh/Dreadstill. I seem to have a horrible track record against decks that run FoW and Daze. I always seem to have my good cards countered. What pointers do you guys have against these decks?
Chalice@1 is pretty good. In case of Threshold, Trinisphere followed by Armageddon usually seals the deal as Thresh only runs about 17 lands, they recover very slow. I also used to run 1 Plateau maindeck and a couple of Boils in the side: the problem with these decks is that they don't only cast FoW or Daze, but also cast pretty big threats. So you need to take out all their mana alltogether, Defense Grid alone often doesn't cut it.

I have had a terrible time with Stifle Naught. As far as the matches go, the only thing I try is wait until you have 3 mana available (first or second turn) and go for Chalice @1. If you have 1 mana left open, you at least remove Daze from the equation, leaving just FoW to worry about.
And Spell Snare.


Once you side in Defense Grids and Sphere of Resistance
You actually run both? I hesitate to run them because of their non-synergy with Trinisphere.


The problem I have with Naught is that it is just too big a beatstick. If it lands, it is nearly impossible to deal with. And every time I have played against it, they had MD EE to remove Chalices. I don't know what to do to stop that. I debated Null Rods in the side, as it only hits our Moxen. Thoughts?
You could run 4 Oblivion Rings and a Kor Haven in the main. Perhaps even Maze of Ith.

[Mordel]

Patrick and co.

I gave my pointers on the matchup anyway. There are guys that probably have better insights than me, but I threw mine out there anyway. My best suggestions beyond what I already said for beating dreadstill and such is to devote your sideboard to the matches more heavily or just play a different deck.

For smokers, I have found there to be a few little nuances as to when you need to drop them as bait: I try to find a time where they would be absolutely amazing to land on the board, but at the same time look like obvious bait so my opponent doesn't counter it. Kind of a weird sort of revers psychology or something like that I guess. I played with permission decks exclusively for a very long time, so I have a pretty good feel for how the match ups work on either side of the table. A big [stupid] part is just luck too I think.

I don't really think geddon stax is a good fit for metagames with lots of goyfs, equipment and naughts though personally. If something doesn't fit, don't try to force it.

[f|i[p]]

I'm not particularly experienced in the counter sliver match up, but unlike thresh, it has faster beaters and more permanents. Its also true that almost every card we have is a problem for counter sliver as Mordel said so, so Im guessing you just have to bait counter spells. You'll have to test this more to figure it out.

Dreadstill, its not a positive match,as far as im concerened. I think one of the biggest problems here is not only dreadnaught but standstill. Its a big card advantage for them.UNless you want to fight man land wars.The rest like force, daze, counter top, is just like thresh. Land base is a little different, but unlike goyf, dreadnaught can not be blocked by magus.O. ring might help here, baiting with the right stuff can be very crucial in this match up. Maybe seal of cleansing or aura of silence might help. As for dreadstill, I think Dutch stax has a better match up on this one. Humilities and moats can stop dreadnaught on its tracks.

The thresh match up is positive one for stax. Just play early lock pieces, smokestack geddon. Its quite easy, just play stax as it is.

@scrow
Null rod for? sensei? It doesn't prevent dreadnaught from attacking. As attacking is not an activated ability. If thats what your thinking.

[scrow213]

No, Null Rod mainly for EE. If you can stick a Chalice @1 and a Null Rod, there is almost nothing left for them to get out. Plus it does also hit Top, as well as hose Affinity pretty well.

[Misplayer]

Against Dreadstill I bring in 3x Aura of Silence and 3x Runed Halo. Keep in mind that Trinisphere makes Dreadnought cost 5U. Trinisphere also makes it difficult for them to cast EE at 0 (Right? Not positive but the mana they use to pay for Trinisphere adds to Sunburst, correct me if I'm wrong). Your best bet against them is playing proactive hate like Trinisphere and Chalice, also Crucible will usually keep them off of Standstill. Runed Halos and Auras give you 6 more reactive answers plus 4 main Oblivion Ring and 1 Kor Haven like Mordel suggested above (that's what I run). Baiting counters is very very important, and like almost all matchups resolving Armageddon will win you the game. Any other card is worth using as bait. The matchup is difficult but not impossible, but knowing which cards you're willing to get countered and which cards you want to have on the table is essential and also varies with game state and your hand. Lastly, I always play around Daze, and that's worked for me.

[Skeggi]

Against Dreadstill I bring in 3x Aura of Silence and 3x Runed Halo.
I use neither of these cards: no room in my sideboard. What does your sideboard look like?

Trinisphere also makes it difficult for them to cast EE at 0 (Right?
Right.


4 main Oblivion Ring and 1 Kor Haven like Mordel suggested above
Hey, that was me! :wink:

[scrow213]

Against Dreadstill I bring in 3x Aura of Silence and 3x Runed Halo. Keep in mind that Trinisphere makes Dreadnought cost 5U. Trinisphere also makes it difficult for them to cast EE at 0 (Right? Not positive but the mana they use to pay for Trinisphere adds to Sunburst, correct me if I'm wrong). Your best bet against them is playing proactive hate like Trinisphere and Chalice, also Crucible will usually keep them off of Standstill. Runed Halos and Auras give you 6 more reactive answers plus 4 main Oblivion Ring and 1 Kor Haven like Mordel suggested above (that's what I run). Baiting counters is very very important, and like almost all matchups resolving Armageddon will win you the game. Any other card is worth using as bait. The matchup is difficult but not impossible, but knowing which cards you're willing to get countered and which cards you want to have on the table is essential and also varies with game state and your hand. Lastly, I always play around Daze, and that's worked for me.

I forgot that Trinisphere makes them have counters on EE. In my experience, the deck is 1 or 2 color, right? If that is the case, then Trinisphere becomes the key, as they can't EE it off the board, and under it they can't get rid of Chalices either.

What do you side out in this matchup? I mean, you are bringing in 3x Runed Halo, 3x Aura of Silence, and I also run 3x Humility in my board (do they come in?). Also, I run 3x Oblivion Ring main. Here is my list for reference:

Artifacts (20)
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Smokestack
4x Mox Diamond

White (15)
4x Armageddon
4x Ghostly Prison
4x Magus of the Tabernacle
3x Oblivion Ring

Lands (25)
6x Plains
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Flagstones of Trokair
3x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
1x Horizon Canopy (testing)

SB:
3x Runed Halo
3x Defense Grid
3x Humility
3x Sphere of Resistance
3x Aura of Silence

Pretty standard list, I think. SB is a little weird, as I test out various slots. I can still never remember good SB plans. So what goes out/in for Thresh or Dreadstill?

EDIT: Reading on the Stifle Naught thread, looks like the deck is starting to move away from EE and more towards a combination of Meddling Mage and Vindicate. How does this affect us? I know Vindicate sucks for sure.

[Patrick]

I use neither of these cards: no room in my sideboard. What does your sideboard look like?

Right.

Hey, that was me! :wink:

Skegg, my board is:

3 Humility
3 Runed Halo
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Aura of Silence
3 Suppression Field

[Krieger]

Ensnaring bridge is a card i've been testing recently in the place of Oblivion ring. I've found it to be much better in the Dreadstill and Team America match ups. One problem I was having with Oblivion ring is that the come into play trigger stifled. Ensnaring bridge also stops future goyfs,tombstalkers ect.

[Skeggi]

Reading on the Stifle Naught thread, looks like the deck is starting to move away from EE and more towards a combination of Meddling Mage and Vindicate. How does this affect us? I know Vindicate sucks for sure.
Yeah I saw it too. It's probably a very bad development for us, not only do we get our asses handed to ourself by Vindicate, we also hate Dark Confidants. Especially in a control deck.

I'm really dreading the Dreadstill build with Vindicate, it looks really strong. I have to play against it though, so I cannot share any experience. Incase people don't know what we're talking about: this list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=316896&postcount=1195).

[scrow213]

Yeah I saw it too. It's probably a very bad development for us, not only do we get our asses handed to ourself by Vindicate, we also hate Dark Confidants. Especially in a control deck.

I'm really dreading the Dreadstill build with Vindicate, it looks really strong. I have to play against it though, so I cannot share any experience. Incase people don't know what we're talking about: this list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=316896&postcount=1195).

I agree, I am not entirely sure how we can work around that... I mean, what is available to stop Vindicate? Meddling Mage? Cranial/Extirpate? Those all require a second color.

As for Ensnaring Bridge, that is a very interesting idea. I think I will have to try squeezing those in somewhere... Maybe take out Humility?

[Misplayer]

I use neither of these cards: no room in my sideboard. What does your sideboard look like?


3x Runed Halo
3x Aura of Silence
2x Suppression Field
4x Rule of Law/CoP:Red (meta choice)
2x Defense Grid
1x Ghostly Prison (depending on what I play 3x main, currently it's Prison)

I'll admit it's not a very refined sideboard but it's worked out ok for me. I'm open to suggestions.



Hey, that was me! :wink:
Crap, I meant to check that before I posted.

@scrow:
Against Dreadstill, I would probably take out 3x Ghostly Prison, 2x Smokestack, 1x Magus? Honestly I consider myself a terrible sideboarder. It also depends on the build you're up against. Magus is more important when they run Goyf.

Also, Vindicate sucks for Stax but the Ugr builds get Grip out of the side which is just as deadly. That list also runs cards that are mostly weak against Stax like Spell Snare and Stifle effects, plus no Daze which is HUGE. Also they don't get much help out of the board, and will be leaning heavily on Vindicate and FoW to fight our hate. It's very possible that I'm missing something but that list doesn't look that scary to me.

[Patrick]

I don't know about you guys, but I always have 4-7 cards in hand late game. I always use lands from the graveyard before my hand to lessen the blow from things like Crypt or Relic.

[scrow213]

3x Runed Halo
3x Aura of Silence
2x Suppression Field
4x Rule of Law/CoP:Red (meta choice)
2x Defense Grid
1x Ghostly Prison (depending on what I play 3x main, currently it's Prison)

I'll admit it's not a very refined sideboard but it's worked out ok for me. I'm open to suggestions.


Crap, I meant to check that before I posted.

@scrow:
Against Dreadstill, I would probably take out 3x Ghostly Prison, 2x Smokestack, 1x Magus? Honestly I consider myself a terrible sideboarder. It also depends on the build you're up against. Magus is more important when they run Goyf.

Also, Vindicate sucks for Stax but the Ugr builds get Grip out of the side which is just as deadly. That list also runs cards that are mostly weak against Stax like Spell Snare and Stifle effects, plus no Daze which is HUGE. Also they don't get much help out of the board, and will be leaning heavily on Vindicate and FoW to fight our hate. It's very possible that I'm missing something but that list doesn't look that scary to me.

@Misplayer - I totally feel the same. I think I am a bad sideboarder. I also agree that K.Grip sucks for us too, but it doesn't hit, say, Magus of the Tabernacle. So I think Vindicate is better, though not a lot. But the loss of Daze is huge!

@Patrick - If you are referring to Ensnaring Bridge when you say you have lots of cards late-game, couldn't you just play accordingly? They have a 'goyf that is currently a 5/6, you start dropping lands from your hand until they can't swing anymore, then start playing from the yard? I also drop extra anything I draw, as it is backups for K.Grip and fuel for Smokestack, so you can easily dump your hand if needed.

[Misplayer]

@Misplayer - I totally feel the same. I think I am a bad sideboarder. I also agree that K.Grip sucks for us too, but it doesn't hit, say, Magus of the Tabernacle. So I think Vindicate is better, though not a lot. But the loss of Daze is huge!

@Patrick - If you are referring to Ensnaring Bridge when you say you have lots of cards late-game, couldn't you just play accordingly? They have a 'goyf that is currently a 5/6, you start dropping lands from your hand until they can't swing anymore, then start playing from the yard? I also drop extra anything I draw, as it is backups for K.Grip and fuel for Smokestack, so you can easily dump your hand if needed.

Vindicate hits Magus but how much does Magus do against that build anyway? Keeps their Confidant/Factories at bay? If they play Vindicate on Magus you're either a) up against a not-so-good player or b) losing terribly.

Not to answer the part of the response that wasn't directed at me, but...well I guess I am doing that. It's tough to 'dump' your hand if you rip E.Bridge and have 5+ in your grip. 3 of those cards are usually land that you're not playing for reasons Patrick mentioned above, or you're drawing off Canopy every turn or pitching Flagstones to Smokestack et cetera. Ensnaring Bridge just does not seem like a very good answer to me, more so when you consider the quality of the other lock pieces you're playing, there is nothing worth cutting for a pretty situational card.

[scrow213]

Vindicate hits Magus but how much does Magus do against that build anyway? Keeps their Confidant/Factories at bay? If they play Vindicate on Magus you're either a) up against a not-so-good player or b) losing terribly.

Not to answer the part of the response that wasn't directed at me, but...well I guess I am doing that. It's tough to 'dump' your hand if you rip E.Bridge and have 5+ in your grip. 3 of those cards are usually land that you're not playing for reasons Patrick mentioned above, or you're drawing off Canopy every turn or pitching Flagstones to Smokestack et cetera. Ensnaring Bridge just does not seem like a very good answer to me, more so when you consider the quality of the other lock pieces you're playing, there is nothing worth cutting for a pretty situational card.

Well what I meant was the Magus + Armageddon plan. If you can resolve both of those, you pretty much won. So the fact that they can't Grip one of the pieces means a lot. And the fact that I have landed Chalice @1 and suffered beats from factories for 5+ turns before drawing an out, I would say Magus can be invaluable.

I still think Bridge merits a test. I mean, if you are taking beats, you drop the bridge and dump your hand. If you have 4 cards in hand (not hard to achieve), it still probably stops 'goyf, Tombstalker, Dreadnaught. You may not be drawing those extra cards, but once you get your hand down to a safe level, you can start drawing again, and not be taking a beating at the same time.

[Mordel]

Magus and prison are both fairly bad in a dreadstill match...

[scrow213]

I think Prison is fairly useless, but when Magus has the ability to block anything that isn't Dreadnaught, and has the potential to remove their Dreadnaught with an Armageddon, I hate to board it out.

[Patrick]

@Misplayer - I totally feel the same. I think I am a bad sideboarder. I also agree that K.Grip sucks for us too, but it doesn't hit, say, Magus of the Tabernacle. So I think Vindicate is better, though not a lot. But the loss of Daze is huge!

@Patrick - If you are referring to Ensnaring Bridge when you say you have lots of cards late-game, couldn't you just play accordingly? They have a 'goyf that is currently a 5/6, you start dropping lands from your hand until they can't swing anymore, then start playing from the yard? I also drop extra anything I draw, as it is backups for K.Grip and fuel for Smokestack, so you can easily dump your hand if needed.

It's already been said that while using the Canopy and Smokestack/Flagstones engines Ensnaring Bridge is awful. Bridge isn't worth testing because:

In most matchups it simply doesn't stop anything from attacking.
In the Dreadstill, Team America and Threshold matchups it doesn't present a resilient answer to their creatures (Grip, Vindicate, cards in your hand)
It solves problems solved better by Ghostly Prison and Moat

[scrow213]

It's already been said that while using the Canopy and Smokestack/Flagstones engines Ensnaring Bridge is awful. Bridge isn't worth testing because:

In most matchups it simply doesn't stop anything from attacking.
In the Dreadstill, Team America and Threshold matchups it doesn't present a resilient answer to their creatures (Grip, Vindicate, cards in your hand)
It solves problems solved better by Ghostly Prison and Moat

I suppose that is true, I guess I just don't have access to Moat, given their price, at least for quite awhile. Any other suggestions?

[Patrick]

I suppose that is true, I guess I just don't have access to Moat, given their price, at least for quite awhile. Any other suggestions?

Windborn Muse is a possibility. It's not as good, just another Prison that can attck. Magus of the Moat is awful.

[scrow213]

Windborn Muse is a possibility. It's not as good, just another Prison that can attack. Magus of the Moat is awful.

I originally used Windborn Muse, but was told repeatedly that it is a terrible choice. I wish that Moats were less than like $75 each. What makes Magus of the Moat suck so bad? Just has a small body?

[f|i[p]]

First of all. Trinisphere and aura of silence does not make dreadnaught cost 5U or 5 mana.. it makes dreadnaught cost 3 mana.. First additional payments are added which makes dreadnaught cost 3 mana, then trinisphere just makes sure that the spell costs 3mana to play. So in then end you have a 3 cc dreadnaught. Dread naught will only cost more than 3 if you have multiple aura of silence. I also dont think we can actually keep dreadstill off blue mana so that they cannot cast standstill. They can just play a dual land during their main phase, and if you waste it they can float the mana, and still play standstill.
Unless you have a first turn cricible wastelock.

Kor haven or maze of ith works very well in this match up. Runed halo is also good if you have it on your sideboard.

Experience is one of the key factors in playing stax.

[scrow213]

;317298']First of all. Trinisphere and aura of silence does not make dreadnaught cost 5U or 5 mana.. it makes dreadnaught cost 3 mana.. First additional payments are added which makes dreadnaught cost 3 mana, then trinisphere just makes sure that the spell costs 3mana to play. So in then end you have a 3 cc dreadnaught. Dread naught will only cost more than 3 if you have multiple aura of silence. I also dont think we can actually keep dreadstill off blue mana so that they cannot cast standstill. They can just play a dual land during their main phase, and if you waste it they can float the mana, and still play standstill.
Unless you have a first turn cricible wastelock.

Kor haven or maze of ith works very well in this match up. Runed halo is also good if you have it on your sideboard.

Experience is one of the key factors in playing stax.

I think what he was saying about Naught costing 5U is that Naught costs 3 and Stifle costs 2U, so together, it totals 5U. And as far as not letting them play Standstill, I think he was saying that we can keep them in a bad board position so it would be unfavorable for them to cast it, not impossible. I just picked up a Kor Haven, I will see how that works out for me.

Edit: Also, I just got my ass kicked by Survival. Sideboarded in Humility and Aura of Silence. Within 3 turns, he had Cabal Therapied both Humility and Smokestack from my hand, and Extirpated Wasteland and Humility. Got screwed hard that match.

Edit: Also got smoked by a Suicide Black deck. First game I had to mull to 3 which lost me the game anyway, and second game he beat me with a double Sinkhole, Wasteland, Hymn to Tourach hand.

[Patrick]

Magus of the Moat isn't an option because he has 3 toughness. This means he falls to Bolt, Gempalm Incinerator, any spot removal, whatever. Moat is so good because it auto wins against Red deck, and heavy black decks because these colors have no enchantment removal. Maindeck enchantment hate is rarely seen, especially in a bigger metagame, while creature kill is everywhere.

[Patrick]

Edit: Also, I just got my ass kicked by Survival. Sideboarded in Humility and Aura of Silence. Within 3 turns, he had Cabal Therapied both Humility and Smokestack from my hand, and Extirpated Wasteland and Humility. Got screwed hard that match.

Humility is the only card that can make that match not an auto lose. Survival decks simply have the tools and the speed to work around anything Stax does, and with Rofellos and Birds they don't need too many lands to do things. I've won 1 game against Survival, and lost about 12.

[scrow213]

Humility is the only card that can make that match not an auto lose. Survival decks simply have the tools and the speed to work around anything Stax does, and with Rofellos and Birds they don't need too many lands to do things. I've won 1 game against Survival, and lost about 12.

Ok, as long as I didn't lose when I should have won. I just had some guy disconnect on me. He was playing (I think) Blue White Stax. I had a Trinisphere out, and a Smokestack with 1 counter. He tapped his City, the sacced it, then tapped a land, then played Mox Diamond. I called him on it and he said "I can get mana any time" and disconnected. Sad when people don't even understand simple concepts, let alone trying to explain the complex interactions in this deck.

[scrow213]

Well after much testing, I think Kor Haven and Horizon Canopy both belong in here for sure. Kor Haven has been amazing, when I draw it. It sucks that a) it only taps for colorless and b) it is Legendary. Horizon Canopy is great in that it taps for white mana (at a pain) but drawing extra cards is good.

So here is my current land base:

4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Flagstones of Trokair (cut 1 for Kor Haven, wrong cut?)
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Kor Haven
6x Plains (cut 1 for Horizon Canopy)

I hated cutting a land that taps for white to fit Kor Haven, but I also didn't want to cut Wasteland or Mishra's Factory, and I am not cutting any of the lands that make :2:, so that was really my only choice. Would you guys have changed that decision?

Also, I still don't like my SB. I shift it around constantly, and can never decide what needs to be in there. Here is what is on MWS right now:

4x Suppression Field
3x Aura of Silence
3x Humility
3x Runed Halo
2x Defense Grid

I never really side Suppression Fields in, I don't know what they would even come in against. Aura of Silence has been great, and hurts Affinity a lot, but I hate getting stuck without :w::w: to play it. Humility stays, no doubt. Runed Halo as well. Defense Grid is great against any kind of counters, so that stays as well.

So really, the question becomes:

Aura of Silence > Seal of Cleansing?

And do you think Defense Grids are worth the slots? I want to fit Sphere of Resistance back in my SB, so I don't know.

Edit: Played Affinity today. Stabilizing at 4 with Trinisphere, Ghostly x2, Magus x2 = Priceless

[Joe_C]

Ive been playing the hell out of this deck for a week straight. To those not running exalted angel: why not? I have serious issues putting the game away without her.

[scrow213]

Ive been playing the hell out of this deck for a week straight. To those not running exalted angel: why not? I have serious issues putting the game away without her.

I honestly never do. I have been on a roll today, winning most of my games. Took down Goblins twice, Affinity 2-0, Enchantress 2-0, Merfolk 2-1, etc. There are times that I wish I had the Lifelink, but usually just because I pained myself too much between Ancient Tomb and Horizon Canopy.

What problems do you come across? And is it just me, or does MWS server suck today?

[Joe_C]

I honestly never do. I have been on a roll today, winning most of my games. Took down Goblins twice, Affinity 2-0, Enchantress 2-0, Merfolk 2-1, etc. There are times that I wish I had the Lifelink, but usually just because I pained myself too much between Ancient Tomb and Horizon Canopy.

What problems do you come across? And is it just me, or does MWS server suck today?

the server sucks. Aside from people quitting sometimes anyway, but its been disconnecting people all morning.

Im finding smokestack to be underwhelming. I have gone to 3 smokey, and 2 o-ring in favor of angelx2. I am running your most recent manabase scrow: not sure if I would just rather have another plains and waste#4 instead of haven/ canopy. I just find and early angel is usually GG.

[scrow213]

the server sucks. Aside from people quitting sometimes anyway, but its been disconnecting people all morning.

Im finding smokestack to be underwhelming. I have gone to 3 smokey, and 2 o-ring in favor of angelx2. I am running your most recent manabase scrow: not sure if I would just rather have another plains and waste#4 instead of haven/ canopy. I just find and early angel is usually GG.

I felt the same about Smokestack at first. I guess with experience you will start to see how much of a powerhouse it is. Haven is great because it stops Dreadnaught, Tarmogoyf, etc. Canopy draws you another card, and produces :w: as well. With Crucible you can use it to draw every turn.

How exactly do you "find an early Angel" when you have no draw, no tutors, and 2x Angel?

[Joe_C]

I felt the same about Smokestack at first. I guess with experience you will start to see how much of a powerhouse it is. Haven is great because it stops Dreadnaught, Tarmogoyf, etc. Canopy draws you another card, and produces :w: as well. With Crucible you can use it to draw every turn.

How exactly do you "find an early Angel" when you have no draw, no tutors, and 2x Angel?

I meant in situations where I do land an early angel it is GG. Like: I find this thread to be informative :laugh:

On the topic of lands: with no way to find the haven or canopy, the 1-of's are just there for you to "maybe" draw. Im not saying that they arent great in the situations you need them in as long as you can draw them. I think dropping down to 3 smokestack and 2 ring is reasonable to add angel in there. She can end games so quickly

[scrow213]

Well by that same logic, you only have 2 Angels, so I have the same likelihood of drawing one of the two lands as you do the two Angels. Plus, I have time to wait for the draw, I don't need either of them early. And the games when I do draw the Kor Haven, it's amazing. Why not run it just in case you stumble across a win?

I personally won't go below 4 Smokestack, because it is too good. It baits out counters, and if it doesn't get countered, you have a plethora of options at your disposal. Sac Flagstones to it and fetch a Plains, throw extra Trinisphere/Chalice/whatever at it, drop a Crucible and win. It is too good to not run a set.

I had Angel for a long time, but I found far too often that when I played it, either it got removed immediately or I was already in good enough shape that it was more of a "win-more" card.

[f|i[p]]

I think having 4 or 3 depends on preference( some players event went down to 2), if your actually focusing more on the lock, 4 would be good. But at times its metagame dependent as well, having lots of swarm aggro or decks with a lot of permanents is usually a hassle in regards to having 4 smokestack since you wouldn't always be able to use it effectively early game against them. You would have to have a magus/ tabernacle /prison or some sort of lock piece in hand before smokestack actually becomes makes a big impact early on.Thats why I personally run 3 smokestack as would usually want to drop early lock pieces first, then my wincon later. Also my metagame is still mostly aggro, and is slightly leaning towards aggro control lately. Against thresh or anything with low permanent count, you would often want more. In regards to how many smokestacks, magus of the tabernacle,wasteland , trinisphere or anything else would end up as metagame choice. We have the general list working very well. Just tweak it here and there according to your playstyle and metagame.

@Joe_C
Exalted angel is not a necessary inclusion, but she does help some match ups.As they usually have to answer her or its gg from there on. You can try putting her on the sideboard, and only bring her in in matchups the she would really kick ass.

[scrow213]

Quick question: If I have Trinisphere out and my opponent plays Shattering Spree, can they just pay RRR and replicate twice, as Replicate counts as part of the cost of the spell? Or is does Spree cost 2R and then they can pay extra for copies?

[nitewolf9]

They can in fact pay RRR for 3 copies and satisfy the requirements for trinisphere.

[scrow213]

They can in fact pay RRR for 3 copies and satisfy the requirements for trinisphere.

Damn. That fucking sucks.

[f|i[p]]

Shattering spree breaks this deck in half..which is sad...

I used to think shattering spree raped chalice @ 1 which was already bad, but then, it also rapes trinisphere by paying RRR instead of 2RRR which made it really really bad for stax.

Replicate [cost]” means “As an additional cost to play this spell, you may pay [cost] any number of times

[scrow213]

;317672']Shattering spree breaks this deck in half..which is sad...

I used to think shattering spree raped chalice @ 1 which was already bad, but then, it also rapes trinisphere by paying RRR instead of 2RRR which made it really really bad for stax.

Replicate [cost]” means “As an additional cost to play this spell, you may pay [cost] any number of times

Is there anything we can do about it other than just accept it? I mean, Jester's Cap is about the only thing I can think of. By the way, any reason this isn't in the board, for removing hate cards (see Krosan Grip)? Just too expensive to use or what?

Edit: Also, is Evagreen a tough match for anyone else? I can't seem to win.

[Skeggi]

Is there anything we can do about it other than just accept it? I mean, Jester's Cap is about the only thing I can think of. By the way, any reason this isn't in the board, for removing hate cards (see Krosan Grip)? Just too expensive to use or what?
Jester's Cap is too slow. That's why.


Edit: Also, is Evagreen a tough match for anyone else? I can't seem to win.
Eva Green is hard because of all the discard. Some lists run Pernicious Deed in the SB, which make them even harder. Often they run stuff like Putrefy in the main, which is also nasty. Against Eva Green, again, you want Chalice@2 asap (Goyf, Hymn, Sinkhole, Shade), but it's hard to get. They usually Thoughtseize (or Duress) it out of your hand. So you also want Chalice@1 (Thoughtseize, Duress, Dark Ritual), but it hits less targets. You also want to do something about their Hypnotic Specters, but aside from the occasional Oblivion Ring, it's a tough nut to crack.

So yes, Eva Green is a difficult match-up. It is winnable, if they can't thrash your hand and you can get your lock down fast.

[Al-ucard]

Hannah's Custody > Shattering Spree

[Krieger]

It's already been said that while using the Canopy and Smokestack/Flagstones engines Ensnaring Bridge is awful. Bridge isn't worth testing because:


I don't think any card isn't worth testing. With that attitude why even test any card?

I don't play Canopy so this doesn't apply. When you have bridge you don't really need the Smokestack/Flagstone engine. You will be able to play more permentants than them and play the lands that you draw and pitch the extra one with Mox Diamond. The only cards in my experence that get left in you hand are Armageddon and Ravages of War and this only happens if you don't get multiple Ghostly Prisons.




In most matchups it simply doesn't stop anything from attacking.
In my metagame there are quite a few Team America and Dreadstill. You bait them with other less important cards and then drop this and you win the preboarded games on the spot unless they can strand cards in you hand via land destruction. You just continue to draw lock peices and play them to keep you hand size low enough to keep them from attacking.



In the Dreadstill, Team America and Threshold matchups it doesn't present a resilient answer to their creatures (Grip, Vindicate, cards in your hand)

What would you say is a resilient answer to their creatures? Krosan Grip will answer any card you would play. It's going to be a problem no matter how you cut it. And as for Vindicate are you suggesting that we play a non-permantant so that it doen't get hit by either Vindicate or Krosna Grip? If so what card do you suggest?




It solves problems solved better by Ghostly Prison and Moat

Not true each card does a different thing. Ghostly Prison answers hoards of creature but does nothing to stop them from attacking with one creature which is all Dreadstill or Team Amercia needs to play to win. Moat doesn't stop Tombstalker from attacking. The main problem is that I would not longer be able to win as I don't play Angel nor do I play Humility and Elspeth.

[f|i[p]]

Is there anything we can do about it other than just accept it? I mean, Jester's Cap is about the only thing I can think of. By the way, any reason this isn't in the board, for removing hate cards (see Krosan Grip)? Just too expensive to use or what?

Edit: Also, is Evagreen a tough match for anyone else? I can't seem to win.

Well, I personally have never tried jesters cap, I think its quite slow, being 6 to cast over all. Hannas custody could be, Karmic justice.. maybe.. You can also try leonin abunas( I wanted to test him but had no real chance). He protects your artifacts, has a very big body they cannot easily bolt, and cannot be K. griped. You might want to try him out.

Eva green is a tough match. Land destruction and hand destruction is a head ache. But If you open with a good hand,and maybe start with a chalice trini. We can probably win the match. You just have to match their speed with yours. Its really tough however.

[scrow213]

Ok as long as I wasn't just failing at Stax. Leonin might work, but he might be a little vulnerable. Karmic Justice would also be nice, maybe. It draws Grips toward it, instead of elsewhere, which is good. I will look into it. I still think that Ensnaring Bridge has some merit. I mean against Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Dreadnought, you don't need to empty your hand. In fact, you can keep a reasonably full hand and still block the attacks. I mean 5 cards? It can't be that tough to get under that many, if it means they can't attack. So you don't keep drawing with Canopy, but they can't attack you.

[Joe_C]

Ok as long as I wasn't just failing at Stax. Leonin might work, but he might be a little vulnerable. Karmic Justice would also be nice, maybe. It draws Grips toward it, instead of elsewhere, which is good. I will look into it. I still think that Ensnaring Bridge has some merit. I mean against Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Dreadnought, you don't need to empty your hand. In fact, you can keep a reasonably full hand and still block the attacks. I mean 5 cards? It can't be that tough to get under that many, if it means they can't attack. So you don't keep drawing with Canopy, but they can't attack you.

Aside from the costs, bottled cloister+ensnaring bridge is nuts. Against an aggro heavy meta this would be better than smokestack in a way

[Misplayer]

I think that dropping Smokestack for Bottled Cloister/Ensnaring Bridge is a mistake for a few reasons:

1. Stax is successful because all the cards are so synergistic with each other. Few of them are truly powerful on their own, but even 2 or 3 of them on the board at once can be game breaking. Ensnaring Bridge does not contribute to this game plan, as it does not tax the opponent in any way.
2. Ensnaring Bridge can be a dead card – not just against combo like Magus or Ghostly Prison, but against most non-Goyf/Dreadnought/Tombstalker threats in the format.
3. It is weaker in the early game – this is already a weakness for Stax.
4. I can’t think of one card I would consider cutting. To the proponents of E. Bridge: what have you ever had in your hand that you wanted to be an Ensnaring Bridge on a regular basis? Redundant copies of cards like Crucible and Trinisphere are not good arguments because you want to see those every single game so it’s worth drawing extra dead copies occasionally.
5. On Bottled Cloister: Every turn you risk getting your hand blown away in a 1 for 2-6 card swing. Ouch.

In short, I can’t even come close to justifying one or both of these cards. Synergy is the key word here. Tangle Wire is not awful because it taxes your opponent, is a house early game and only dead late game, and it doesn’t even get a slot in most lists.

I don’t want to sound like I’m anti-innovation, but I think the optimum card choices for mono-white Magus/Prison/Geddon Stax have been identified. Counts of some of those cards and sideboard slots remain widely variable. That’s my take at least.

Lastly, don’t go to less than 3 Smokestack. The card wins games and if played correctly is extremely one-sided. One of the more difficult aspects of Stax is knowing when to go to 1, 2 or even 3 counters on it, but having the balls to do it is very important in succeeding with this deck. Remember that with 4 mana you can play a permanent a turn until you find Crucible, don’t hesitate to ramp that bad boy up when staring down a disadvantageous board position, or when aggressively pursuing a hard-lock to force your opponent to scoop.

[scrow213]

I agree with a lot of what you said, and I am not saying the Bridge belongs maindeck at all. I just find myself staring down a Tarmogoyf or a Dreadnought too often with nothing I can do about it. Halo or Humility work, but :w::w: can be tough to find, especially in a hurry, but :3: is not.

[Joe_C]

I agree with a lot of what you said, and I am not saying the Bridge belongs maindeck at all. I just find myself staring down a Tarmogoyf or a Dreadnought too often with nothing I can do about it. Halo or Humility work, but :w::w: can be tough to find, especially in a hurry, but :3: is not.

has anyone tried running riftstone portal in this deck? Having access to white/green could make for more open boarding and getting it into our grave shouldnt be an issue

[scrow213]

has anyone tried running riftstone portal in this deck? Having access to white/green could make for more open boarding and getting it into our grave shouldnt be an issue

How would you fit it in. I am already stretched on my land-base.

4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Kor Haven
6x Plains

I have no clue what to swap. -1 Wasteland, +1 Riftstone Portal would be my first choice, I think.

Edit: At this rate, we are going to have a bunch of 1-of lands in the deck. I like Riftstone Portal, but it's another "if I draw it, it might be good" kind of card.

[Patrick]

How would you fit it in. I am already stretched on my land-base.

4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Kor Haven
6x Plains

I have no clue what to swap. -1 Wasteland, +1 Riftstone Portal would be my first choice, I think.

Edit: At this rate, we are going to have a bunch of 1-of lands in the deck. I like Riftstone Portal, but it's another "if I draw it, it might be good" kind of card.

Scrow I like how your manabase looks, the only thing I'd suggest is maybe adding a 26th land as the 61st card, either a Plains or Wasteland. An additional plains allows you to keep the Flag/Crucible/Stack lock down for an extra turn, and Wasteland can put some decks out of the game.

Also, Suppression Field comes in against any decks that have a lot of activated abilities (duh). Cards like Sensei's Diving Top, fetchlands, AEther Vial, Grindstone Combo, any combo. If you run the card in you board pay attention game 1 and figure out how bad Suppression Field will mess them up. It's a lot better than you might initially think.

[scrow213]

I will be sure to watch more carefully. As for a 26th land, is 61 cards a safe play? And what are your thoughts on Riftstone Portal? I can play that as a 61st card perhaps?

[b4r0n]

Not to dredge up the whole argument about running more than 60 cards, but Stax seems like one of the last decks that you'd ever want to run 61 cards in. You have absolutely no way of manipulating your draws, yet you rely on drawing a precise mix of lands and lock pieces. This produces inconsistency. Adding extra cards to the deck will simply make it even more inconsistent than it already is.

Plus, Riftstone Portal seems unnecessary.

[scrow213]

Not to dredge up the whole argument about running more than 60 cards, but Stax seems like one of the last decks that you'd ever want to run 61 cards in. You have absolutely no way of manipulating your draws, yet you rely on drawing a precise mix of lands and lock pieces. This produces inconsistency. Adding extra cards to the deck will simply make it even more inconsistent than it already is.

Plus, Riftstone Portal seems unnecessary.


I don't think it's going to be worth it anyway, and I am too lazy to do the math, but with 16 non-white mana sources, and 13 white mana sources (including moxen, which you may have to dump a white mana source to anyway), it can be very tough at times to get :w::w: to play cards out of the sideboard (Humility, Runed Halo, Aura of Silence).

I also don't really care for running 61 cards. Seems risky to me.

[Mordel]

If you find yourself seeing lots of naughts and such, seriously play a different deck. As much as I like the archetype, lately I have not been playing my pet stax deck due to a proliferation of random jank and mirror matches which make want to /wrists from the boredom.

[scrow213]

If you find yourself seeing lots of naughts and such, seriously play a different deck. As much as I like the archetype, lately I have not been playing my pet stax deck due to a proliferation of random jank and mirror matches which make want to /wrists from the boredom.

That's the other thing, I don't even think there is such thing as a "meta" here. I have yet to find anything remotely large for Legacy in my area, and I highly doubt I will see much Dreadnought around here anyway. montana sucks. That's how bad it sucks. I don't even capitalize it.

[Sims]

How would you fit it in. I am already stretched on my land-base.

4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Kor Haven
6x Plains

I have no clue what to swap. -1 Wasteland, +1 Riftstone Portal would be my first choice, I think.

Edit: At this rate, we are going to have a bunch of 1-of lands in the deck. I like Riftstone Portal, but it's another "if I draw it, it might be good" kind of card.

I enjoyed Riftstone Portal in TerraGeddon when i was running on a budget with Mongrels, Bears, and no duals... but in this deck it seems godawful and weak. I'd much rather have the basic land.

A question on your Manabase: How well has that been working? has Kor Havens ability made up for it not producing white? Is the Canopy engine really that good? I tried Canopy briefly and never found myself too impressed with it and really can't imagine giving up my plains for them, though I have not yet tried Haven.

[scrow213]

I enjoyed Riftstone Portal in TerraGeddon when i was running on a budget with Mongrels, Bears, and no duals... but in this deck it seems godawful and weak. I'd much rather have the basic land.

A question on your Manabase: How well has that been working? has Kor Havens ability made up for it not producing white? Is the Canopy engine really that good? I tried Canopy briefly and never found myself too impressed with it and really can't imagine giving up my plains for them, though I have not yet tried Haven.

As far as not producing white, it is a fairly minor issue. I have no need for :w::w: maindeck. It can be tough after SB to get double white, but the games that I have drawn Kor Haven it has been stellar. I have won several games just being able to Haven 1 creature a turn. As for Canopy, I am sold on it. Drawing 2 cards a turn with Crucible out has been amazing. Gets your lock pieces up twice as fast, or finds a solution to a problem twice as fast.

[Skeggi]

Lastly, don’t go to less than 3 Smokestack. The card wins games and if played correctly is extremely one-sided. One of the more difficult aspects of Stax is knowing when to go to 1, 2 or even 3 counters on it, but having the balls to do it is very important in succeeding with this deck. Remember that with 4 mana you can play a permanent a turn until you find Crucible, don’t hesitate to ramp that bad boy up when staring down a disadvantageous board position, or when aggressively pursuing a hard-lock to force your opponent to scoop.

This is very true. Knowing 'how to Smokestack' is one of the most important aspects when playing Stax. It involves some higher levels of math if you really want to do it well. If you're no good at math, and I mean George-Boole-good-at-math, you want to playtest different ammounts of sooth counters on your Smokestack in various different matches and see how it works out.


I also don't really care for running 61 cards. Seems risky to me.

Experience has taught me that it is better to run 61 cards than to run 60 cards where you've cut the wrong card. Really, 61 isn't all that bad. Check out the discussion (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10916).

[scrow213]

Experience has taught me that it is better to run 61 cards than to run 60 cards where you've cut the wrong card. Really, 61 isn't all that bad. Check out the discussion (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10916).

So I did some research, and here is what I concluded, given my manabase, listed below for posterity:

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
6x Plains
3x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Kor Haven
3x Flagstones of Trokair

With a 60 card deck you have the following probabilities:

Chance to draw 1 copy of any 4-of opening hand: ~39.95%
Chance to draw at least 1 land that produces :w: opening hand: ~74.14%

Changing to a 61 card deck, adding 1 Plains, you get:

Chance to draw 1 copy of any 4-of opening hand: ~39.40% (difference: ~0.55% lower)
Chance to draw at least 1 land that produces :w: opening hand: ~77.10% (difference ~2.96% higher)

So, in my opinion, losing about a 0.55% chance to draw any given lock piece to increase the odds of drawing white mana by almost 3% is a good trade. Adding a Plains it is.

Questions, comments, feedback?

[Arsenal]

Mox Diamond needs to be factored in the equation when talking about available W sources.

[scrow213]

Mox Diamond needs to be factored in the equation when talking about available W sources.

Well the problem with Mox Diamond is you may end up throwing a white source into it, for instance dropping Mox D and City to play a Trinisphere. In any case, Mox Diamond will only increase the odds of getting white mana if that is what you need.

Edit: Upon further investigation, with the same above mana bases, the odds of having :w::w: available second turn are as follows (again, not counting Mox):

60-card deck: ~39.98%
61-card deck (with an extra Plains): ~44.46%

So by adding 1 Plains to the deck, you further increase your odds of having :w::w: on second turn by ~4.5%.

Edit 2: With all scenarios, it is important to note that you might get both sources as Flagstones of Trokair, although the probability of that is about 4.42% in a 60-card deck and 4.28% in a 61-card deck. Just be aware.

[Patrick]

Thanks for doing all that math for me Scrow! My 61st card wasn't Plains, but Horizon Canopy, so the WW still works. I just have to take a damage. Hasn't really lost me a game, but having Ancient Tomb and Horizon Canopy in play at the same time is bad news. Oh well.

[scrow213]

Thanks for doing all that math for me Scrow! My 61st card wasn't Plains, but Horizon Canopy, so the WW still works. I just have to take a damage. Hasn't really lost me a game, but having Ancient Tomb and Horizon Canopy in play at the same time is bad news. Oh well.

Yeah, damn Tombs. I did, however. win a game simply due to the drawback on City of Traitors. He is playing some crappy deck that has Back to Basics, Winter Orb, etc. He lands Energy Flux (ouch). I keep only Crucible. My non-basics don't untap, and the only basic I have out is 1 Plains. On my turn, I tap City of Traitors to pay for Crucible, then play a City of Traitors from the yard, leaving me an untapped City and a City in my yard to repeat next turn :)

Anyway, few turns later I draw Oblivion Ring for his Energy Flux and proceed to win. Yay me!

[scrow213]

So I hate to be that guy again, but we are planning a Legacy tournament in my area in a couple months and looking to get some decent prizes (for Montana) like a set of dual lands or something. Anyway, I need to be prepared and want to know what matchups I should test heavily, assuming a diverse meta. I think I will have to test the hell out of Dreadnought and Landstill, probably see some Thresh as well, so I will be testing that. If anyone plays any of these decks and wants to provide me with some good testing on MWS, let me know!!

Also, anyone have 2x Mox Diamond and 4x City of Traitors they are willing to trade or sell at a fair price? I have managed to pick everything else up so far, just need those 6 cards to finish the MD.

[scrow213]

Is there any possibility of having the OP of this thread updated with a more recent "Primer" on the deck, possibly with some matchup analyses? Trying to drum up some more interest and it would be useful to have a more accurate, recent jumping off point for new players.

[bowvamp]

Scrow, please use the edit button...
But on a more positive note thank you so much for showing us those numbers on a 61 card deck.

[Joe_C]

I have been playing this list with a very strong take on smokestack/crucible lock:

3 Flagstone
3 wasteland
1 horizon canopy
1 kor haven
2 god's eye, gate to the reikai(TECH!!!)
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
2 blinkmoth nexus
6 plains

4 smokestack
4 crucible of worlds
4 chalice of the void
3 oblivion ring
4 magus of the tabernacle
4 armageddon
4 mox diamond
4 ghostly prison
4 trinisphere

gods eye solves a problem ive had actually getting a way to win after i manage a board lock... blinkmoth may not be perfect but its a way to chump tombstalker or anything airborne.

[scrow213]

gods eye solves a problem ive had actually getting a way to win after i manage a board lock... blinkmoth may not be perfect but its a way to chump tombstalker or anything airborne.

Blinkmoth Nexus is cool, but the savage tech is Mishra's Factory with Humility. Humility makes all creatures 1/1 with no abilities, but Factory remains a 2/2, so it kills anything else in combat. I like the idea of chump-blocking Tombstalker, but it won't beat another Factory on the defense.

As for not getting a kill condition, if you have 3x Factory and 4x Magus, and the lock in place, you will inevitably get your kill conditions. You don't need to rush if you have them locked out.

As far as God's Eye, it is anti-synergistic with Magus+Armageddon. I generally only have 1 mana source after I drop Armageddon, unless I had already hit Mox and Flagstone. It might work, but I find myself struggling to find any slots in the MD for more non-white lands.

[Patrick]

I have been playing this list with a very strong take on smokestack/crucible lock:

3 Flagstone
3 wasteland
1 horizon canopy
1 kor haven
2 god's eye, gate to the reikai(TECH!!!)
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
2 blinkmoth nexus
6 plains

4 smokestack
4 crucible of worlds
4 chalice of the void
3 oblivion ring
4 magus of the tabernacle
4 armageddon
4 mox diamond
4 ghostly prison
4 trinisphere

gods eye solves a problem ive had actually getting a way to win after i manage a board lock... blinkmoth may not be perfect but its a way to chump tombstalker or anything airborne.

If winning isn't an issue, God's Eye is fine. You can use whatever you want. God's Eye doesn't do anything you want it to. The token doesn't block anything, it isn't good under Smokestack/Crucible lock and it doesn't make white mana. Flagstones doesn't make a token, but it is good with Smokestack/Crucible and does make white mana.

[Joe_C]

If winning isn't an issue, God's Eye is fine. You can use whatever you want. God's Eye doesn't do anything you want it to. The token doesn't block anything, it isn't good under Smokestack/Crucible lock and it doesn't make white mana. Flagstones doesn't make a token, but it is good with Smokestack/Crucible and does make white mana.

under crucible wasteland it allows you to ramp stack to 2 without losing advantage. so it serves the lock purpose well.

[Skeggi]

You're both right. God's Eye is a card which fits the Stax idea, it helps keep your Smokestack at 2 with ease. But there are better cards which fit that purpose, the -almost always better option- is as mentioned, Flagstones with a slightly higher Plains count (7 or 8). The other option is Elspeth. God's Eye isn't bad, but there are simply better options.

[scrow213]

I have to say, it's bad. It provides colorless mana and has a marginal effect outside the fact that it's a terrible mana source.

Also, I think I am going to fit Pithing Needle in my board. It is too good and shoring up some bad matches. Dreadstill beats me by hitting Engineered Explosives, loses otherwise. So if I just stick a needle, they have a hell of a time getting through it. Same with Deed. Also hits Top, Survival, Keg, Cranial Plating, Nev's Disk, etc.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

Also, I think I am going to fit Pithing Needle in my board. It is too good and shoring up some bad matches. Dreadstill beats me by hitting Engineered Explosives, loses otherwise. So if I just stick a needle, they have a hell of a time getting through it. Same with Deed. Also hits Top, Survival, Keg, Cranial Plating, Nev's Disk, etc.

I've mentioned this several times on the site, and I'm still going to reiterate it. I believe that Pithing Needle is bad. It costs :1:, and its bad enough that they're already bringing artifact destruction in against you game 2/3. I maindeck Suppression Field. Why? Please See the Quote Above.
"But Bobby, Needle doesn't stop Deed or Explosives! It just slows them Down"
-I understand, but by the time they would get enough mana, you should have dealt with the Deed/Explosive by then, or their land.
"But Bobby, If I got it late game, Pithing Needle would be better than Suppression Field, because you could stop it completely!"
-Ok... If you don't have Chalice for 1 out by now, either they've already blown Deed/EE, or Pithing Needle can't even be cast, without being countered by Chalice.
Moral of the Story - You needle Explosives. They Cast Viridian Zealot. you Needle Zealot. Rinse and Repeat. 3 Needles = 3 stopped abilities. 3 Suppression Fields = Problems for your opponents. It slows down everything. EVERYTHING! "Needle Strand, They Play Delta." Stop making your First instict decide whether you win or lose the game. And if you Play Mishra's Factories, then either A. Stop Playing Mishra's Factory or B. Stop Paying attention to me! and Please, If you disagree, Please reply to the post. I take all contructive critisizm. But March 7-8, when I goto the Grand Prix in Chicago, I am A. Going to have the best record with any White Stax Deck. I am very confidant that my Stax Deck will do amazing Down there and B. Suppression Field is going to win me more games than Pithing Needles will win any deck games.

Blinkmoth Nexus? I remember the first time I played Stax. I played Thran Dynamo, Gods Eye, Eternal Dragon, Decree of Justice, Mishra's Factory. A lot of these cards are good, but not good enough. Don't play Blinkmoth Nexus. It's not worth the loss of a white source. You're better off putting Forbidden Watchtower in :eek:.

If you want good Advice on the Deck, you can look at earlier posts from Myself (if they even are good), Mordel, Skeggi, and Arsenal. I will post more later, I gotta get some sleep.

P.S. What is up with 25-26 lnd? I run 23, and I never have a land problem.

[scrow213]

I know why you play Supression Field. I have it in my sideboard already. But I can't always resolve an Armageddon when I need to. And I have never seen Zealot out of the board against something like Dreadstill. I see a lot of EE. So if I needle EE and stick a Chalice @1, I win (usually).

Edit: No need to be so condescending, by the way. You act like I have never seen this deck before and don't understand simple concepts. I know how the cards work, and I know that I still get my ass handed to me by Dreadnought. I have had too many games that I could have won, but they ended up getting to 4 mana (as if that is so tough) and wiping the board.

Edit 2: Thank you Skeggi.

[Skeggi]

There has been alot of discussion about Pithing Needle and Suppression Field in this thread (I think there is one around page 40 or so, go ahead, read back, I'll wait). The basic outline is: Pithing Needle is almost a must in your sideboard. Often it is better than Suppression Field because it doesn't shut down your Wasteland, Factory, Horizon Canopy, Elspeth and what have you.

[Patrick]

I've mentioned this several times on the site, and I'm still going to reiterate it. I believe that Pithing Needle is bad. It costs :1:, and its bad enough that they're already bringing artifact destruction in against you game 2/3. I maindeck Suppression Field. Why? Please See the Quote Above.
"But Bobby, Needle doesn't stop Deed or Explosives! It just slows them Down"
-I understand, but by the time they would get enough mana, you should have dealt with the Deed/Explosive by then, or their land.
"But Bobby, If I got it late game, Pithing Needle would be better than Suppression Field, because you could stop it completely!"
-Ok... If you don't have Chalice for 1 out by now, either they've already blown Deed/EE, or Pithing Needle can't even be cast, without being countered by Chalice.
Moral of the Story - You needle Explosives. They Cast Viridian Zealot. you Needle Zealot. Rinse and Repeat. 3 Needles = 3 stopped abilities. 3 Suppression Fields = Problems for your opponents. It slows down everything. EVERYTHING! "Needle Strand, They Play Delta." Stop making your First instict decide whether you win or lose the game. And if you Play Mishra's Factories, then either A. Stop Playing Mishra's Factory or B. Stop Paying attention to me! and Please, If you disagree, Please reply to the post. I take all contructive critisizm. But March 7-8, when I goto the Grand Prix in Chicago, I am A. Going to have the best record with any White Stax Deck. I am very confidant that my Stax Deck will do amazing Down there and B. Suppression Field is going to win me more games than Pithing Needles will win any deck games.

Blinkmoth Nexus? I remember the first time I played Stax. I played Thran Dynamo, Gods Eye, Eternal Dragon, Decree of Justice, Mishra's Factory. A lot of these cards are good, but not good enough. Don't play Blinkmoth Nexus. It's not worth the loss of a white source. You're better off putting Forbidden Watchtower in :eek:.

If you want good Advice on the Deck, you can look at earlier posts from Myself (if they even are good), Mordel, Skeggi, and Arsenal. I will post more later, I gotta get some sleep.

P.S. What is up with 25-26 lnd? I run 23, and I never have a land problem.

This is poorly written and did little to move the discussion along. Consider using the edit function and condensing your ideas.

@ Skeggi: I went back to around page 40 and found debates about Mindlock Orb, how Elspeth works and Ethersworn Cannonist. Can you elaborate a little on how Needle is an auto-include?

[Joe_C]

I have to say, it's bad. It provides colorless mana and has a marginal effect outside the fact that it's a terrible mana source.

Also, I think I am going to fit Pithing Needle in my board. It is too good and shoring up some bad matches. Dreadstill beats me by hitting Engineered Explosives, loses otherwise. So if I just stick a needle, they have a hell of a time getting through it. Same with Deed. Also hits Top, Survival, Keg, Cranial Plating, Nev's Disk, etc.

Against Dreadstill wouldnt you want to land chalice @1 anyway? I ve always had issues running needle in a the board of a deck that runs chalice. You will almost always want to drop chalice @1 no matter what, which makes needle a dead card unless they nuke your chalice, but most of the stuff we want to needle costs more than 1 mana or is free. I would think as far as activated costs go, suppression field in multiples is the best answer we can get

[scrow213]

Against Dreadstill wouldnt you want to land chalice @1 anyway? I ve always had issues running needle in a the board of a deck that runs chalice. You will almost always want to drop chalice @1 no matter what, which makes needle a dead card unless they nuke your chalice, but most of the stuff we want to needle costs more than 1 mana or is free. I would think as far as activated costs go, suppression field in multiples is the best answer we can get

Yes, you do. Until the EE it off the board, and drop a Dreadnought. Have you played this matchup? I have played it quite a bit, and Chalice @1 only buys time until they get EE, which they can then reuse with Academy Ruins. Once they get EE, you are screwed and just get to watch them stomp you.

The stuff we want to Needle is:

SDT (?)
Deed
EE
Nev's Disk
Powder Keg
Manlands (?)
etc.

Supression Field slows several of our cards (Mishra, Wasteland, Horizon Canopy, Kor Haven), which is crippling when you can't use a Mishra's Factory to block without at least 4 mana open (3 mana + Factory).

So I would probably stick a Needle on EE then stick a Chalice. If they are playing green, sure they would have Grips, but either way Grip would screw us.

The point is, versus Deed, Keg, Disk, EE, etc, all we can do is hope to draw enough Supression Fields and screw their lands permanently so they can't activate. You can't tell me that when you play against Deed or Dreadstill you can always stop them from hitting the mana needed to wipe the board and take over. I would rather take the risk and know for certain that Deed or EE is stopped, barring them drawing another card to remove the Needle.

Also, couldn't find a specific outline of why Needle is an auto-include (after reading about 20 pages), but saw a lot of similar points to the points I just made. Supression Field hurts us too, and often we only need to stop one card, not all of them.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

Let me Clear some things up before I go play cards.

Scrow: You seem to be new to the stax forum, because I never saw you post before. I am not starting arguements, I'm not trying to make you look like you've never seen the deck before. The forum is to suggest Ideas, and Even though Patrick thinks I wrote too much non-sense, it really isn't. I run Suppression Field in my maindeck. the other 70% of people on here run Needle in the side. I've tested needle, and It is bad in my environment. My environment is highly competitive, so I have to keep my sideboard just like I would at an 800 person tournament. I know Suppression Field just slows them down, and It hurts the stax plyer as well, "but not to argue," just to throw more points out there, There are decks that run Moat, Humility, Needle, Elspeth. Then there are versions that run Magus, Ghostly Prison, Suppression field and Angel.

The first version Mentioned is a cretion by Skeggi, which has it's own forum under "New nd developmental decks." My next arguement is, why run Ghostly Prison? Once they get 2 Mana, they can just attack you. So why not just run Moat? Once they kill Ghostly prison, then they can swing freely. There is multiple 2 card-3 card combo advantages that this deck creates for the stax player. When you have suppression field out, they have to tie some mana down. when Ghostly Prison is out, the same. The same goes for Trinisphere, Magus, Defense Grid. The Point of the Stax Deck is so they don't have enough mana to do everything. If they play a spell, they don't hve enough mana to attack. If they attack, they can't fetch for a land. If they activte top, they can't cast a spell (Sorry Patrick, you must be getting irritated).

My Proposal is: The Deck makes the opponent use mana wisely. So I can see Needle being in the version where they dont lock down the opponents land.

I'm not rebuttleing to any comments made earlier. I Don't run Elspeth. I dont run Factory. I dont run Blinkmoth Nexus. I don't even run Kor Haven (Although I am going to test it tonight). I run Plain old Stax, No New Nothing.

I understand the PN vs SF, but Mainboard suppression Field is about as good as a chalice for 1. ll decks play fetches, and If not, they play equipments. Suppression Fields win you games against Enchantress, 42 Lands, and It wins me a lot of games. Period. If you agree, Let's Talk about it! If not, There is no need to argue. You should not have a problem with Dreadstill. O-Rings, Chalice, etc....

[Joe_C]

So what exactly are your win conditions? Does every single one of your matches go to time? I cant see you winning games if you do not run manlands, and if you just run angel and magus(if you run angel), that sureley isnt enough since that makes all your win conditions counterable. I would like you to post your list for analysis

[scrow213]

Let me Clear some things up before I go play cards.

Scrow: You seem to be new to the stax forum, because I never saw you post before. I am not starting arguements, I'm not trying to make you look like you've never seen the deck before. The forum is to suggest Ideas, and Even though Patrick thinks I wrote too much non-sense, it really isn't. I run Suppression Field in my maindeck. the other 70% of people on here run Needle in the side. I've tested needle, and It is bad in my environment. My environment is highly competitive, so I have to keep my sideboard just like I would at an 800 person tournament. I know Suppression Field just slows them down, and It hurts the stax plyer as well, "but not to argue," just to throw more points out there, There are decks that run Moat, Humility, Needle, Elspeth. Then there are versions that run Magus, Ghostly Prison, Suppression field and Angel.

The first version Mentioned is a cretion by Skeggi, which has it's own forum under "New nd developmental decks." My next arguement is, why run Ghostly Prison? Once they get 2 Mana, they can just attack you. So why not just run Moat? Once they kill Ghostly prison, then they can swing freely. There is multiple 2 card-3 card combo advantages that this deck creates for the stax player. When you have suppression field out, they have to tie some mana down. when Ghostly Prison is out, the same. The same goes for Trinisphere, Magus, Defense Grid. The Point of the Stax Deck is so they don't have enough mana to do everything. If they play a spell, they don't hve enough mana to attack. If they attack, they can't fetch for a land. If they activte top, they can't cast a spell (Sorry Patrick, you must be getting irritated).

My Proposal is: The Deck makes the opponent use mana wisely. So I can see Needle being in the version where they dont lock down the opponents land.

I'm not rebuttleing to any comments made earlier. I Don't run Elspeth. I dont run Factory. I dont run Blinkmoth Nexus. I don't even run Kor Haven (Although I am going to test it tonight). I run Plain old Stax, No New Nothing.

I understand the PN vs SF, but Mainboard suppression Field is about as good as a chalice for 1. ll decks play fetches, and If not, they play equipments. Suppression Fields win you games against Enchantress, 42 Lands, and It wins me a lot of games. Period. If you agree, Let's Talk about it! If not, There is no need to argue. You should not have a problem with Dreadstill. O-Rings, Chalice, etc....

I haven't been posting long, but I have been lurking here for a few months. Why play Ghostly Prison instead of Moat? I think the reasoning is that it a) costs less to cast; b) doesn't require :w::w:; and c) doesn't stop us from attacking with Magus or Mishra's Factory. And your reasoning that "once they kill Prison they can swing freely" applies the same to Moat. I don't see where that argument leads.

Furthermore, them not having enough mana to play multiple things doesn't end the game. Just 1 'goyf swinging every turn is all it takes. A smart player won't overextend into an Armageddon.

Your next point, "The Deck makes the opponent use mana wisely. So I can see Needle being in the version where they dont lock down the opponents land" I don't understand. Yes they use mana wisely. So using that mana to drop a Pernicious Deed and activate is wise. That's probably the best way to use mana wisely.

I am not trying to "just argue" either, but I think you are being harsh and condescending. Additionally, you said that Needle is bad in your environment, which is not what you stated last post:

"when I goto the Grand Prix in Chicago, I am A. Going to have the best record with any White Stax Deck. I am very confidant that my Stax Deck will do amazing Down there and B. Suppression Field is going to win me more games than Pithing Needles will win any deck games."

You basically said "Suppression Field is right, everything else is wrong." Which is not "Suppression Field is better in my meta."

I want to see your list, so I can test it. 23 lands? I don't see how that is feasible in a deck that runs 4x Mox Diamond and Armageddon, with a curve as high as ours is. We have to reliably hit land drops throughout the game, and we can't rely on Crucible to carry us every game.

Finally, how do you not have a problem with Dreadstill? They have counters, board sweepers, spot removal, card draw, and a 12/12 Trample. You Chalice, they counter or EE. You O-Ring, they counter or drop another Dreadnought. They have a lot of answers and a lot of options. Once they stick that Dreadnought, we have very few options of stopping it.

[f|i[p]]

So what exactly are your win conditions? Does every single one of your matches go to time? I cant see you winning games if you do not run manlands, and if you just run angel and magus(if you run angel), that sureley isnt enough since that makes all your win conditions counterable. I would like you to post your list for analysis

I for one have actually won a lot of times via magus beat down, even though angel and magus is indeed counterable, They wouldn't have counters for everything. They would rather counter chalice, trinisphere, smokestack, crucible. Actually I don't really see people countering magus or angels much. They actually kill it instead, since most decks have at least some creature control. Just because You dont run factories doesn't mean the deck gets really really slow. I for one never really found too much appeal on factories and run 4 wasteland and only 2 factories.

@ needle vs suppression

I always thought that both were good at what they do. Needle stops deed (which I really hate). Suppression field delays them. Needle is like targeted removal. While suppression field is more taxing. Field indeed hits a lot more than needle does, since it can hit fetch, deed, manlands, cycling, tops and more all at the same time. The problem with field is that, it doesn't necessarily stop them. At times, you will also be hit with suppression field, if you run wasteland and manlands. But you usually hurt the opponent more. Dropping field late game is kinda useless as well.

THis is how I see it, because this deck doesn't have a draw engine at all, we cannot always rely on drawing an armageddon or having the ability to prevent the opponent from having 4 or more mana, to be able to evade suppression fields taxing ability. I can compare it to ghostly prison, where in people would just pay to to be able to hurt us as long as they have the mana to do so. I think needle is better in my case.

@dreadstill
Its a tough match up since prisons are almost dead in this match up. Standstill wrecks us. They would almost all the time counter chalice. Since most dreadstill decks now are dropping the green splash to focus more it becomes harder to disrupt their mana base. Stax still loses to creatures that tend to be stand alone or equipped. Pithing needle doesn't do much in this matchup, just like suppression field. If you are able to, you can probably splash a hint of green, just for K. grips if dreadstill running rampant in your meta. maybe add 2-3 duals, and the diamonds would take care of the rest. I remember skeggi running a few red duals just to splash ajani and boil, and I don't think it hurt his mana base at all. If you run some green splash, it could give you access to K. grip, tsunamis or choke. This would probably help you out a lot against blue based decks.

I have never really tinkered with the light green splash yet, its just a thought and could come very handy. Only if your not scared of splashing colors. Now that I presented it, I might test it out myself. I was actually testing out the blue splash with thirst, but I'll play around with splashes more and infrom you of whatever works. U stax however has been making top 8 lately, running sower of temptation maindeck. The other blue stax deck that made top 1 out of 65 has a splash of white for armageddon. Plays almost exactly like geddon stax.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

So what exactly are your win conditions? Does every single one of your matches go to time? I cant see you winning games if you do not run manlands, and if you just run angel and magus(if you run angel), that sureley isnt enough since that makes all your win conditions counterable. I would like you to post your list for analysis

I'm going to try and keep the posts short, and just address a few topics from now on. I Played Tonight, and I added Thirst for Knowledge. It worked Great FYI. I did Not go to time at all. I played Mono Black Round 1, and Killed him game two with SStax and three with Magus/Geddon, even got through 2x Gloom Game 2. Then I played against Survival, and I just destroyed him between multiple Geddons and Suppression Field. Game Three, Suppression Field stopped Dredges Colloseum Game 1 and 3Sphere/Prison Shut him off Game two. Fourth, I played Team America, and He had all the answers for my lands and I didn't stand a chance. Finals I Beat Dreadstill by Racing the Dreadnought with the Controlling -Sphere, Magus, Geddon (Chalice was countered) sequence-. Top 2 was against team america gain, and I Simply Beat His Face in with a hammer. Extirpates the Geddons game 2, with magus on board, and I top Deck Ravages. I will post a list later this week scrow. I'm re-building a little.

[Skeggi]

@ Skeggi: I went back to around page 40 and found debates about Mindlock Orb, how Elspeth works and Ethersworn Cannonist. Can you elaborate a little on how Needle is an auto-include?

I've looked it up. Page 41 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6044&page=41). Fred Bear elaborates among other things why Pithing Needle is good. (Ctr+F that page for 'needle').


Against Dreadstill wouldnt you want to land chalice @1 anyway? I ve always had issues running needle in a the board of a deck that runs chalice.
Yeah against Dreadstill Chalice@1 is awesomesauce. But why would you want to board in Pithing Needle against Dreadstill?



The stuff we want to Needle is:

SDT (?)
Deed
EE
Nev's Disk
Powder Keg
Manlands (?)
etc.

http://typo.graphr.net/images/owl-orly.jpg

DreadStill doesn't run Deed. They do run EE, but that's no real reason to run Pithing Needle (most DreadStill lists can only make 2 colors anyway, plus you can 'save' your 3-mana cards in your hand, be careful with Oblivion Ring though). Most DreadStill lists don't run Nev's Disk. You should run Powder Keg against DreadStill. You would shut down your own Manlands if you shut down theirs, and you have Crucible.


;320910']I remember skeggi running a few red duals just to splash ajani and boil, and I don't think it hurt his mana base at all.

This is true. But I'm leaning more towards green splash for Choke at the moment. I must say, I prefer either Boil or Choke over stuff like Defense Grid: it just has better synergy with Trinisphere.


I played Mono Black Round 1, and Killed him game two with SStax and three with Magus/Geddon, even got through 2x Gloom Game 2.
I hate to burst your bubble, but mono-black isn't really a good deck. Mono-black with Glooms is highly doubtful.

Then I played against Survival, and I just destroyed him between multiple Geddons and Suppression Field.
Yup, that should do the trick. But hey, on the Suppression Field/Pithing Needle discussion: now you need Suppression Field and Armageddon to stop Survival. You could just use 1 Pithing Needle and you're set.

Game Three, Suppression Field stopped Dredges Colloseum Game 1 and 3Sphere/Prison Shut him off Game two. Again, Pithing Needle on Colloseum...what does Ichorid play for 1 you want to Chalice out anyway? (Nothing a Trinisphere can't handle, I can tell you)

Fourth, I played Team America, and He had all the answers for my lands and I didn't stand a chance.
TA is a tough match-up. If you encounter alot of these (or DreadStill) in your meta, you may want to try Dutch Stax, it has better odds against these decks.

Finals I Beat Dreadstill by Racing the Dreadnought with the Controlling -Sphere, Magus, Geddon (Chalice was countered) sequence-. Top 2 was against team america gain, and I Simply Beat His Face in with a hammer. Extirpates the Geddons game 2, with magus on board, and I top Deck Ravages. I will post a list later this week scrow. I'm re-building a little.
Very good job, these are both very hard match-ups for Stax.

[scrow213]

I wasn't listing cards that we use Needle for against Dreadstill. I was listing cards in general that we use Needle for. As for the Dreadstill matchup, the point I have been trying to make is that with them moving from the green splash, if we stick Needle on EE and Chalice @1, we win. If we stick Chalice @1, they drop EE and win. I have run across this problem time and time again. I don't know how to better combat it. And I still have a shit SB with no ideas how to improve it, and still suck at sideboarding. Here is my SB:

3x Defense Grid
3x Suppression Field (Pithing Needle)
3x Humility
3x Runed Halo
3x Aura of Silence

So how can I change this to make it better? And I still (even after reading pages and pages of this thread) suck at knowing what comes out and what goes in. Thresh? Goblins? Landstill? 43Land? Dreadstill? I never know, so I take out cards that I wish I didn't and draw cards that turn out useless, so I clearly am terrible at sideboarding. Anything will help. Thanks!

[Skeggi]

If we stick Chalice @1, they drop EE and win.Not even under these circumstances would I side in the Pithing Needles. Chalice@0 stops EE killing your Chalice@1. Trinisphere also pretty much wrecks DreadStill.

Anything will help. Thanks!
Play Dutch Stax (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12515).

[scrow213]

Not even under these circumstances would I side in the Pithing Needles. Chalice@0 stops EE killing your Chalice@1. Trinisphere also pretty much wrecks DreadStill.

Play Dutch Stax (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12515).

Ok apparently I was too vague when I said "anything will help". What I meant was "any advice on my sideboard and sideboarding techniques will help". I don't know that I will see a lot of Dreadstill in my area. Right now I only play on MWS and I just want to not get stomped by decks like Dreadstill, Landstill, and Thresh. I have conceded that Survival just sucks and accept that. Land.dec sucks too, but is manageable. I can't afford, and also do not wish, to play Dutch Stax, as I am very happy with Armageddon Stax. I just need some assistance knowing how to SB for these matchups, so I know what's what. I always seem at a loss as to what goes in and comes out.

[Skeggi]

You can run 1 maindeck Kor Haven for starters. That helps greatly against decks like DreadStill or TA. Further, as I said, Chalices and Trinispheres are DreadStill's nemisis. Oblivion Rings are a must against both these decks, if you don't already have them. If you can, try to run 1 Plateau or Savannah maindeck, and have either Boils or Chokes in your sideboard, it helps against alot of match-ups which have blue. They help (way) better than the underperforming Defense Grid because:

Defense Grid only stops counters. Decks these days play threats as well.
Defense Grid has poor synergy with Trinisphere. Most counters you'll ...uhm...encounter...are Force of Will and Daze. Trinisphere make these cost :3: just like Defense Grid does, plus Trinisphere also has effect on alot more.

I'm also not a fan of Humility in Armageddon Stax, because it shuts down half your win conditions: your Maguses. Try Powder Keg. It's a real good card against:

Goblins. Not that this match-up was a problem in the first place.
Empty the Warrens tokens.
Phyrexian Dreadnought
A little creature called Tarmogoyf, and all his 2cc friends like Jotun Grunt and Dark Confidant. And these are all cards which are very good against Stax.


My Armageddon Stax sideboard looks like this:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Choke
4 Compost
3 Powder Keg

Compost is also pretty cool: it helps against match-ups which are pretty hard for Stax: decks with alot of discard. I already run 4 maindeck Oblivion Rings, so they're not in the board.

Against DreadStill, out of this list you want Choke and Powder Keg. So you could try something like:
-1 Smokestack (with Choke they're less useful), go to a minimum of 2.
-4 Ghostly Prison (they only have 1 real beater...they can afford the mana)
-1 Armageddon (if you're playing 4 Armageddon and 1 Ravages of War, like I am)
-1 Mox Diamond; tricky card when EE@0 comes through, you will not only lose your Chalices but also your Moxen.

+4 Choke
+3 Powder Keg

If you play clever against their countermagic (keep in mind they sided out Counterbalance, but put in Krosan Grips or Shattering Pulse depending on the build, and probably still play Daze), this should be a win for you.

If you prefer some graveyard-hate in your sideboard you could try:

3 Pithing Needle
3 Choke
3 Compost
3 Powder Keg
3 Tormod's Crypt

[scrow213]

You can run 1 maindeck Kor Haven for starters. That helps greatly against decks like DreadStill or TA. Further, as I said, Chalices and Trinispheres are DreadStill's nemisis. Oblivion Rings are a must against both these decks, if you don't already have them. If you can, try to run 1 Plateau or Savannah maindeck, and have either Boils or Chokes in your sideboard, it helps against alot of match-ups which have blue. They help (way) better than the underperforming Defense Grid because:

Defense Grid only stops counters. Decks these days play threats as well.
Defense Grid has poor synergy with Trinisphere. Most counters you'll ...uhm...encounter...are Force of Will and Daze. Trinisphere make these cost :3: just like Defense Grid does, plus Trinisphere also has effect on alot more.

I'm also not a fan of Humility in Armageddon Stax, because it shuts down half your win conditions: your Maguses. Try Powder Keg. It's a real good card against:

Goblins. Not that this match-up was a problem in the first place.
Empty the Warrens tokens.
Phyrexian Dreadnought
A little creature called Tarmogoyf, and all his 2cc friends like Jotun Grunt and Dark Confidant. And these are all cards which are very good against Stax.


My Armageddon Stax sideboard looks like this:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Choke
4 Compost
3 Powder Keg

Compost is also pretty cool: it helps against match-ups which are pretty hard for Stax: decks with alot of discard. I already run 4 maindeck Oblivion Rings, so they're not in the board.

Against DreadStill, out of this list you want Choke and Powder Keg. So you could try something like:
-1 Smokestack (with Choke they're less useful), go to a minimum of 2.
-4 Ghostly Prison (they only have 1 real beater...they can afford the mana)
-1 Armageddon (if you're playing 4 Armageddon and 1 Ravages of War, like I am)
-1 Mox Diamond; tricky card when EE@0 comes through, you will not only lose your Chalices but also your Moxen.

+4 Choke
+3 Powder Keg

If you play clever against their countermagic (keep in mind they sided out Counterbalance, but put in Krosan Grips or Shattering Pulse depending on the build, and probably still play Daze), this should be a win for you.

How do you reliably get green mana if you just splash one dual (and Moxen, obv.)? I have posted my list, and my manabase, several times, so you can see that I have 3x Oblivion Ring MD, and I have 1x Kor Haven already.

I have felt the same about Humility myself, and have been wondering why Keg isn't getting more attention. Is it just the speed?

I like the SB you listed, but sadly I am not in a position to pick up duals. It's part of why I built Stax. No need for hundreds of dollars for a manabase. Can you make any other recommendations for my SB? I will certainly try replacing Humility with Powder Keg, as I too felt it deserved some love.

As for Defense Grid, I disagree. It doesn't just hurt counters. It means Brainstorm costs :3::u: unless they want to cast it on their turn. StP suddenly costs :3::w:, Grip costs :5::g:, all unless they want to spend their mana on their turn, opening up our options on our turn. I do understand where you are coming from though, I guess I like the fallback as additional Trinispheres for counters. I like knowing that they can't counter anything without that mana untapped. It's like Trinisphere 5-7 for me.

I don't know... I am too drunk and tired to think too much about it, but I love the deck and just want to understand how to stand a chance against a large portion of the field.

[Skeggi]

How do you reliably get green mana if you just splash one dual (and Moxen, obv.)?
Fetch with Flagstones.


I like the SB you listed, but sadly I am not in a position to pick up duals.
Try shockland? But you really just need 1 Savannah, it shouldn't be that big a deal...


As for Defense Grid, I disagree. It doesn't just hurt counters. It means Brainstorm costs :3::u: unless they want to cast it on their turn.
So they cast it on their own turn. With Trinisphere it always costs :2::u:. Same goes for Swords to Plowshares. I'll give you the comment regarding Grip, but that's far too narrow to use Defense Grid...and again, they'll use it on their own turn if they otherwise can't afford it.

It's like Trinisphere 5-7 for me.
But they're bad Trinispheres. In fact, you don't even want to run over 4 Trinispheres in the first place, even if you could.

Ah well, good luck with it. All I can say is, try some stuff and test them out.

[f|i[p]]

I wasn't listing cards that we use Needle for against Dreadstill. I was listing cards in general that we use Needle for. As for the Dreadstill matchup, the point I have been trying to make is that with them moving from the green splash, if we stick Needle on EE and Chalice @1, we win. If we stick Chalice @1, they drop EE and win. I have run across this problem time and time again. I don't know how to better combat it. And I still have a shit SB with no ideas how to improve it, and still suck at sideboarding. Here is my SB:

3x Defense Grid
3x Suppression Field (Pithing Needle)
3x Humility
3x Runed Halo
3x Aura of Silence

So how can I change this to make it better? And I still (even after reading pages and pages of this thread) suck at knowing what comes out and what goes in. Thresh? Goblins? Landstill? 43Land? Dreadstill? I never know, so I take out cards that I wish I didn't and draw cards that turn out useless, so I clearly am terrible at sideboarding. Anything will help. Thanks!

Against threshold, I probably wouldn't side in as much. Your main deck would already wreck thresh as it is. Prisons and Magus do their job pretty well against thresh. Blocking and taxing their mana.

Goblins I usually side out smokestack as, normally aggro gets more permanents faster than you do. Also if your on the draw, I would cut some chalice against goblins. Since you would really want to hit lackey and vials with it. I think wrath is better than humility against aggro. Kills everything.Unless you plan to go the manland kill or humility is used against matrons or trinket mages.

Against 43 land, I definitely take off magus and prisons or cut them at the least since they really don't run creatures. In goes suppression fields/needles. try to set chalice at 2 for loam.

Dreadstill does not run alot of permanents just like thresh, Prisons won't do much here, So im assuming that you take prisons off for fields, and cut a few e magus for aura of silence or seals.Your sideboard generally would almost help you against dreadstill. Runed halo would be a head ache since now they actually have one win con which is dreadnaught. I didn't consider manlands because, you generally have 2-3 manlands and 2-3 wastelands as well.

As for your sideboard, I used to like def grid as well, but after bringing them to a few tournaments, I realized that they work almost exactly like trinisphere so in actuality you already have maindeck def. grids. Just something to consider, Have you ever tried mana tithe? It might be something that could work if your really taxing your opponent. They would normally counter chalice at one anyway so its not such a big deal for it being 1cc.

As for the green splash, I would advocate at least 2 dual lands in there. If your on the budget, pain lands or maybe even filter lands. I actually tried treva's ruins or riths grove in there just to see if I could constantly use it to bounce city of traitors when I put it to play constantly. It worked it some cases, but I hated drawing it as my first land.

@ green splash
In my green splash I have chokes and Krosan grips in my side. I don't think the grips are ever going to go away, as it helps in either killing dreadnaught, or taking out P. Deed which kills this deck on its tracks. I Don't mind discard as much as deed since I already have a maindeck solution to discard like chalice set @ 1 or 2 for hymn . So as for the green splash, I would definitely have K. grips and chokes on the side.

@OneBigSquirrelGod
Thirst for knowledge has been very very helpful in my testing. They can give us a variety of other options like chills sower of temptation or whaver else there is.

[Skeggi]

;321057']Against 43 land, I definitely take off magus and prisons or cut them at the least since they really don't run creatures. In goes suppression fields/needles. try to set chalice at 2 for loam.
First stop: Chalice@1 against Manabond and Exploration. Also, Armageddon isn't as good against this match-up as it seems. They kinda recover fast :wink:.


;321057']As for the green splash, I would advocate at least 2 dual lands in there. If your on the budget, pain lands or maybe even filter lands.
Painlands and Filterlands aren't fetchable with Flagstones.


;321057']
@ green splash
In my green splash I have chokes and Krosan grips in my side. I don't think the grips are ever going to go away, as it helps in either killing dreadnaught, or taking out P. Deed which kills this deck on its tracks. I Don't mind discard as much as deed since I already have a maindeck solution to discard like chalice set @ 1 or 2 for hymn . So as for the green splash, I would definitely have K. grips and chokes on the side.
This is an awesome idea, so obvious, I kick myself in the head for not having thought of this. I'm going to try it. I'm beginning to like the green splash more and more.


;321057']@OneBigSquirrelGod
Thirst for knowledge has been very very helpful in my testing. They can give us a variety of other options like chills sower of temptation or whaver else there is.
The blue build with white splash seems strong, but the white build with green splash seems stronger in my opinion.

[f|i[p]]

@skegi "Painlands and Filterlands aren't fetchable with Flagstones."

I know they aren't fetchable, thats why I said if he was really on a budget and has no other option. I thought of the ravnica dual lands which are alot cheaper than regular dual lands at first, but at the cost of 2 life,so it doesnt come into play tapped... perhaps not since tombs already hurt you a lot.. Mox D would actually cover most of the problems regarding light color splashes..You would probably need at least 2 sources of green aside from mox D.

@scrow
Savannahs are one of the cheapest duals anyway, but I suggest you proxi it first and see how it helps. If you don't like it.. Don't shell out money for it. You can stay mono white as far as im concerned. Its just that splashing a color usually gives you more options even if its a light splash.

[scrow213]

;321143']@skegi "Painlands and Filterlands aren't fetchable with Flagstones."

I know they aren't fetchable, thats why I said if he was really on a budget and has no other option. I thought of the ravnica dual lands which are alot cheaper than regular dual lands at first, but at the cost of 2 life,so it doesnt come into play tapped... perhaps not since tombs already hurt you a lot.. Mox D would actually cover most of the problems regarding light color splashes..You would probably need at least 2 sources of green aside from mox D.

@scrow
Savannahs are one of the cheapest duals anyway, but I suggest you proxi it first and see how it helps. If you don't like it.. Don't shell out money for it. You can stay mono white as far as im concerned. Its just that splashing a color usually gives you more options even if its a light splash.

Thank you guys. I woke up this morning to a ton of helpful advice. I think I will test out the green splash, as Krosan Grip seems like it can be very very good. I like the fact that it can take out Deed, Disk, EE, Dreadnought, etc and they can't stop it (short of a lucky blind flip off CB).

As for SB options and techniques that really helps. The main reason I have the Defense Grids is for Blue Control, since I want a Trinisphere to stay down, and it gives me more of them that they have to counter/remove. Also, since it is a different CMC from Trinisphere, they can't EE both off the field. I guess I will drop them and test out some other options. K.Grip sounds great for sure. Now should I play Choke or Compost or both? It seems like a lot of green out of the board, and I kind of like Aura, Halo, etc.

[Noman Peopled]

The green cards would pretty much by definition worth be splashing, so they would presumably be worth two life or waiting a turn most of the time as well. Especially since Flagstone really doesn't care if you're fetching a Temple Garden or Savannah; it's gonna be tapped either way.

Proxying can't hurt, though.


//edit: oh well, too slow.
Gript doesn't help against EE/Deed if they kick it without passing priority. Granted, that's least likely to happen in a matchup like Stax. I guess I'm gonna have to try that as well ... luckily, I just ordered a Savannah just to near completion of my soon-to-be playset of duals.

[f|i[p]]

Yes, until they pass priority, you can't do much even with grips in hand. However, with stax as your deck, it shouldn't be quite a problem. They should be tight on their mana. Meaning they won't be able to pop whatever they got right away without passing priority, or at least the next turn.

Played a short game with Dreadstill, won 2-1 today. I must say resolving a trinisphere wrecks their deck. I didn't encounter too much counterspells though.. It was maybe either he was unlucky or I was lucky. Magus doesn't really do much here. Standstill still kicks stax in the balls. I played the W/u version with thirst for knowledge for card draw.

[Patrick]

TA is a tough match-up. If you encounter alot of these (or DreadStill) in your meta, you may want to try Dutch Stax, it has better odds against these decks.


In my experience Team America is in the favor of Stax. Their manabase is so shaky that a single Wasteland can be enough to win the game, let alone Wastelock. They only play 8 threats in the deck. I'm having a hard time explaining it, but I've never lost a match to TA, and I've played matches probably 5 or 6 times.

[scrow213]

Well I just bought a set of Choke, Krosan Grip, and 2 Temple Garden (easier to spend $12 on a pair of G/W Lands than ~$20 each). I will probably upgrade this later. How would you shift the manabase to accomodate:

4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
7x Plains
3x Flagstones of Trokair
3x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
1x Kor Haven
1x Horizon Canopy

I figure probably just -2 Plains +2 Dual. Coincidentally, Horizon Canopy also produces green or white, so it provides one more source of either color. That is pretty handy, I must say! Adding the duals means I will have 3 lands that produce green, 4 moxen, and 3 Flagstones to fetch, which sounds pretty stable given the fact that I will only need 1 green out.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

In my experience Team America is in the favor of Stax. Their manabase is so shaky that a single Wasteland can be enough to win the game, let alone Wastelock. They only play 8 threats in the deck. I'm having a hard time explaining it, but I've never lost a match to TA, and I've played matches probably 5 or 6 times.

I second this. I Lost on Wednesday for the first time, and I've played against it 9-10 times. Usually even If I get screwed a game, I still get the 2/3.

[f|i[p]]

Well I just bought a set of Choke, Krosan Grip, and 2 Temple Garden (easier to spend $12 on a pair of G/W Lands than ~$20 each). I will probably upgrade this later. How would you shift the manabase to accomodate:

4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
7x Plains
3x Flagstones of Trokair
3x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
1x Kor Haven
1x Horizon Canopy

I figure probably just -2 Plains +2 Dual. Coincidentally, Horizon Canopy also produces green or white, so it provides one more source of either color. That is pretty handy, I must say! Adding the duals means I will have 3 lands that produce green, 4 moxen, and 3 Flagstones to fetch, which sounds pretty stable given the fact that I will only need 1 green out.

Looks stable.. that would be how I would put it if I ran 26 lands... which I actually don't. I cut the 4th city of traitors and never looked back...

[klaus]

3x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
7x Plains
4x Flagstones of Trokair
4x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
[25]

Most straight forward, consistent land config I've been testing over the years.
-
I've been off this threat for quite some time & my stax chore cards have been moved to my trading folder. Stax just hasn't performed as consistently as I wanted it to.
Don't wanna sound like a total dick but the only card that could change my mind about Stax's overall quality would be a 1W Ponder :rolleyes:

Cheers.

[scrow213]

;321611']Looks stable.. that would be how I would put it if I ran 26 lands... which I actually don't. I cut the 4th city of traitors and never looked back...

You think the 7 lands that tap for :2: is consistent enough for getting early Trinisphere and Chalice? I mean it would save me 12-15 bucks for getting the 4th City, but I don't want to weaken the power of the early plays.

[f|i[p]]

In my testing however, mox D, and tombs and 3 traitors were consistent enough.The problem I have was drawing another traitors in the process... Like getting 2 traitors in your opening hand... or drawing another city later on... Just the same with flagstones.. I also cut them to 3...I hated drawing 2 flagstones opening hand, or drawing another flagstones later on... If this however does not happen to you as much.. Then I guess its not a problem if you have 4. It happens to me a lot as I do not tend to be as lucky as other players are. I actually run the bare minimum land count which is 24 lands.. Others play an optimum of 25 and others play it safe with 26. I however do not have any problems with 24 lands and I'm very happy with it(No Kor havens here just because I have never really tested it yet or have a copy).

On the side note, on the process of testing the green splash,if you make it a little more dedicated, what do you think of Knight of reliquary? It becomes very large with an armageddon (which we already have 4 of), it also fetches any land you need as well, from wasteland,kOr haven, factory,tabernacle,flagstones, duals but then again, you can only sac a plains/forest card. It Works well with smokestack, if in any case you didn't attack on your turn, you could tap him on the end of your opponents turn, and get a flagstones for stax fodder. But I guess we run too few plains cards to make him even worth it. But maybe as a 2 of he might work. These are just thoughts however. Do you ever feel the need to tutor for land in this deck? Have you ever played this deck and wanted to tutor for a wasteland, manland or tabernacle or any of the likes? I know how tight the deck is already is, and its hard to actually make some space. I don't really think he is needed... Just wanted to throw out some fresh ideas.

[Kuma]

Again, Pithing Needle on Colloseum...what does Ichorid play for 1 you want to Chalice out anyway? (Nothing a Trinisphere can't handle, I can tell you)

Putrid Imp, Cabal Terapy, Breakthrough, Chain of Vapor, Careful Study...

Yeah, all of those can't be cast under a Trinisphere, but it's much easier to drop a Chalice turn one than a 3-sphere.

Ichorid hates seeing a Chalice at one. Don't board them out for Needles.

[ParkerLewis]

As I very much like the deck, but have always hated :

1) the trouble it can have to deal with a sizeable enemy threat. Against a Drake, a Dreadnought, or whatever unique big threat, the deck is often far too defenseless : a single Ghostly Prison won't be enough most of the time, the potential moat or humility risks coming online too late (or being simply ineffective vs flying for moat), or sometimes even simply a small goblin because the deck stabilized at a too low life level,

2) the desperate craving of filtering this deck has (lots of 4-ofs that are almost needed to be seen but sucks when seen in multiples, ie basically the whole artifact suite),

I've decided to try running this list :


// Lands (26)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [LRW] Plains (3)
3 Tundra
1 [ST] Island (4)
2 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures (3)
3 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle

// Spells (31)
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
3 [R] Armageddon
1 [P3] Ravages of War
4 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [RAV] Compulsive Research

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 3 [RAV] Suppression Field
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


(sideboard certainly unoptimized).

As you can see, the principal addition is a very light blue splash, for A) a drawing engine (Compulsive Research), B) maindeck 4x EE with C) Academy Ruins as a two-of.

A) Compulsive research. As a 3-of, I've felt that CR was superior to TfK. Keep in mind that the build is high on land (26), which means I'm more likely to easily discard a land card than an artifact card. A land card is also far more easily reusable via Crucible (4-of) than having to use 2 lands + Ruins (2-of) + a draw step to get back an artifact. I’m running three but I could see running a fourth one. The only thing preventing me from doing that is that the deck usually wants to do a few things first, and only then to reload / get what it’s now lacking, as it’s critical not to give the opponent too much time in the early game to put you in a too difficult position.

As an alternative, and since the deck effective needs would be almost equally filled via filtering than with raw drawing, I’ve considered Omen. Yeah, the 1U Ponder, Ponder itself not being acceptable for the same reason that Entlightened Turor isn’t, ie the 1 cc that is going to be shut down by CotV. On the other hand, beween a 1U Ponder and a 2U CR, the mana difference didn’t appear significant enough anymore to justify only going for the filtering. But I thought it was debatable as at 2 mana, Omen is a card you could also play as a setup card (much like Thresh does with Ponder)… but then you’d probably need to have acces to blue more consistently. All in all, it seemed inferior to CR without doubt, but i guess it’s worth keeping the card in mind.

[U]B) Engineered Explosives. Between Moxen and the light blue splash, there is no problem at all sunbursting it up to 2 (more is obviously more difficult and rarely recommended given the deck’s curve), which is enough for most of the threats in the format (dread, tarmogoyf, etc). Basically, the goal of the card is to fill both Oblivion Ring & Smokestack roles at the same time. Think of it this way : it will cost around the same mana, but will combine Smokestack’s mass destruction with the speed of Oblivion Ring (ie not having to dangerously wait turn after turn while you’re low on life before Smokestack’s effect finally gains the edge over what the opponent can do). I mean, I can see one of the roles of Smokestack is to slow the game down by encouraging the opponent to wait for it to die before resuming his game plan, but that’s usually not what’s happening. Between the time needed to reach four mana, plus the additional turns before it gets active, you’re usually at such a low life that the opponent has a good shot of finishing you off simply by overextending into it to keep his single threat alive a few more turns.

EE solves this problem, and with it being recurrable via Ruins, I really don’t see any reason to look back on that particular change. For those very few match-ups where you risk facing threats that actually cost 3 or more (mainly Chalice aggro decks like Dragon/Faerie Stompy), I’ve put the full Oblivion Ring suite in the board.

C) Academy Ruins. As already said (and pretty obvious), Academy Ruins are here solely to recurr EEs. Well, they always can have an additional use outside of that (giving you back a countered or gripped key artifact like Crucible or any lock piece), but that’s more of an added bonus.


So, here it is. Not that many changes compared to a standard list, but I’ve ended up pretty happy with the result. I’d be glad to hear your comments on this, and potential tests or real-life results if you're willing to try these changes.

[StoicAngel]

I know digging up old threads is bad. But, since I am lacking in resources, is 3 crucible's enough? Or is the 4th that critical?

[Guevera59]

If this deck could play 5, it would play 8. Play 4x CoW's, it's essential to every gameplan of this deck.

[StoicAngel]

I'll try digging a 4th up. Thanks.

[scrow213]

In fact, play 5 anyway. Just don't get caught. :)

Just kidding

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

OK scrow, Here is my decklist, as I promised...

4 City of Traitor
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Tundra
1 Kor Haven
6 Plains

4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Smokestax
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Exalted Angel
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Suppression Field
3 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War
3 Thirst For Knowledge

"But Bobby... You're running 62 Cards..."

-Well aware of that. My Choice. No arguement of it. I know the Numbers-

I am intensively testing new cards in the deck, with different idea's, so this is currently what I'm trying. I already went over Suppression Field, so no need to touch base on that again. Only two Smokestacks does suck, I wish I could fit more in, BUT, I'm already over 2 slots, so I would have to take out 3 cards to put in 1 Stax, and I don't know If I'm Comfortable doing that. Thirst for Knowledge, I am testing for myself, and It's been a great card advantage-getter. I still Like angel. I tried Elspeth, and with the way my deck runs, I think Angel is a better decision for it. And the reason will be short - Ghostly Prison. Runed Halo. That's the reason. Elspeth is amazing with Moats and Humilities, but I don't run either.
I want to thank whoever's idea it was to suggest Kor Haven.... I put it in, and Have had nothing but good results from it. I beat F. Stompy and Tombstalker a lot easier tonight. The card is amazing. Thank you Forum's
I Didn't put my sideboard up here, and I'm sorry. I have StP in there, and I do not want to get riddiculed* about it :laugh: Halos, RoL, Supp. Field, O Ring, Grid, StP.
Currently 2-0 in tournaments (I've won 2 in a row 17 ppl and 16 ppl).

[f|i[p]]

A) Compulsive research.[/B][/U] As a 3-of, I've felt that CR was superior to TfK. Keep in mind that the build is high on land (26), which means I'm more likely to easily discard a land card than an artifact card. A land card is also far more easily reusable via Crucible (4-of) than having to use 2 lands + Ruins (2-of) + a draw step to get back an artifact. I’m running three but I could see running a fourth one. The only thing preventing me from doing that is that the deck usually wants to do a few things first, and only then to reload / get what it’s now lacking, as it’s critical not to give the opponent too much time in the early game to put you in a too difficult position.

As an alternative, and since the deck effective needs would be almost equally filled via filtering than with raw drawing, I’ve considered Omen. Yeah, the 1U Ponder, Ponder itself not being acceptable for the same reason that Entlightened Turor isn’t, ie the 1 cc that is going to be shut down by CotV. On the other hand, beween a 1U Ponder and a 2U CR, the mana difference didn’t appear significant enough anymore to justify only going for the filtering. But I thought it was debatable as at 2 mana, Omen is a card you could also play as a setup card (much like Thresh does with Ponder)… but then you’d probably need to have acces to blue more consistently. All in all, it seemed inferior to CR without doubt, but i guess it’s worth keeping the card in mind.


The problem however is that this is sorcery speed. And instant speed is always better than sorcery.

About Academy ruins, I always found it slow,but if you have 4 EE. I guess its worth a try..

@ Onebigsquirrelgod

How is the 62 card decklist working for you? I actually play 61 and I don't seem to get hurt by it at all.

stp on the side isn't much of a problem since you usually side it out or even if you have it in your deck at the same time like say, for dreadnaught, it will be a good back up plan if they take out chalice @ 1.

[Mordel]

I know digging up old threads is bad. But, since I am lacking in resources, is 3 crucible's enough? Or is the 4th that critical?


RAWRRRRRR

72 pages of content and someone still asks this?!! ACK!

On the engineered explosives thing:

What are you specifically using those explosives for exactly? White stax in general tends to scoff at counter balance as well as low cc creatures in general. Problems traditionally come from combo and big things/smallish things holding weapons. Oblivion ring shores up that weakness quite nicely, yet they are nowhere to be seen in the list posted.

Angels have also been revealed to be more of a crutch in a sense. Admittedly, I ran them, however they were the first up to get cut for o-rings.

It honestly seems like not enough testing was done with the original formula before you tried to change it.

I can understand cutting back on two or three lands to make room for horizon canopies, but making a somewhat messy splash for EE and TfK confuses me especially since one of the better reasons to run a splash of blue would be for ruins and not even to have them in conjunction with EE, but just to have them to make sure that a CoW, 3sphere or smoker hits the table.

[ParkerLewis]

;321840']The problem however is that this is sorcery speed. And instant speed is always better than sorcery.

The only thing is : the whole Armageddon Stax deck is sorcery speed. There is not ONE instant in the deck. The only instant-speed thing in the deck is a few activated abilities (Mishra, and EE + Ruins in the list I posted).

In this deck, you wouldn't get any advantage playing the card at instant speed, barring the "now you know i've drawn cards" bit. Quite the opposite, playing it during your own turn is simply the better play anyway. This way you give yourself the possibility to use the cards you just drew without having to wait for your next turn.

I've considered the sorcery thing, and reached the conclusion that it's a complete detail in this deck. But you're right, I should have mentioned that in the previous post.


;321840']About Academy ruins, I always found it slow,but if you have 4 EE. I guess its worth a try..

I quite agree here. It's only a 2-of, and this is the one thing I'm less confidant about. Maybe with 4 EEs, those would be enough anyway. Or maybe if sticking with Ruins then 3 EE would be enough. This is something that would need to be decided with further testing, I guess.


On the engineered explosives thing:

What are you specifically using those explosives for exactly? White stax in general tends to scoff at counter balance as well as low cc creatures in general. Problems traditionally come from combo and big things/smallish things holding weapons. Oblivion ring shores up that weakness quite nicely, yet they are nowhere to be seen in the list posted.

That's the problem : it "tends" to. It doesn't. I'm not talking about CB (which clearly you really don't care about).

Keep in mind we’re also hurting ourselves with Tomb. Using it twice, you’ve already done 20 % of THEIR job alone. Not using it, you’ve mulliganed yourself.

A single Tarmogoyf is enough to put you into trouble. You can’t rely on the 2 or so Oblivion Rings you’re running MD to deal with it. The only plausible way you have to deal with it is combining several lock pieces, ie Ghostly Prison + Smokestack (will need at least two turns to be useful), or Ghostly Prison + Armageddon (at least it’s immediate, but doesn’t solve the problem, that just means he’s two land drops away from finishing you).

Also, have you actually played against competent Goblins opponents ? If so, you should have noticed their propency to simply ignore 8 of our lock pieces (CotV, Trinisphere) thanks to Vial and/or Lackey, the only thing slowing them down being Ghostly Prison. Majority of the time (60 %), you won’t have it in your opening 7, and you’ll be in serious trouble during this game, because by the time it goes online or you’ve found an alternative (4cc Magus + Armageddon, or Armageddon in addition to Ghostly Prison), you’ll be at such a low life that they’ll just manage to get through. If you haven’t experienced that, I can only recommend more testing against this deck, or being glad you’re not facing it in your meta : )

And I've also not even talked about their potential MD answers (Predator, Grip (it happens MD), or simply FoW) !


Angels have also been revealed to be more of a crutch in a sense. Admittedly, I ran them, however they were the first up to get cut for o-rings.

It honestly seems like not enough testing was done with the original formula before you tried to change it.

I can understand cutting back on two or three lands to make room for horizon canopies, but making a somewhat messy splash for EE and TfK confuses me especially since one of the better reasons to run a splash of blue would be for ruins and not even to have them in conjunction with EE, but just to have them to make sure that a CoW, 3sphere or smoker hits the table.

Angels ? Horizon Canopies ? TfK ? I'm not running any of these. You're mixing up obsg's list in this (which doesn't run EE whih you are mentioning also, so there's definitely a mix-up on your part).

To clarify things, here is the list I'm talking about once again :


// Lands (26)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [LRW] Plains (3)
3 [u] Tundra
1 [ST] Island (4)
2 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures (3)
3 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle

// Spells (31)
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
3 [R] Armageddon
1 [P3] Ravages of War
4 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [RAV] Compulsive Research

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 3 [RAV] Suppression Field
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Ruins to ensure Trinisphere hitting the table ? How late are you expecting to do that ? That's a turn 4 thing (turn 3 at the earliest of earliest), how useless is that ?

And Smokestack is far too slow. That's the main reason I'm trying EE. Basically every time I lost with the deck was because I stabilized at a too low life level and the aggressive player only had a few damage points to get left. Smokestack is simply useless here. EE deals with the threats RIGHT NOW. Not in three or four turns' time. I know this isn’t what Smokestack is supposed to do, which is why it fails at it. But it’s what the deck needs against any kind of aggressive deck, which is the difficult matchup.

[Misplayer]

A single Tarmogoyf is enough to put you into trouble. You can’t rely on the 2 or so Oblivion Rings you’re running MD to deal with it. The only plausible way you have to deal with it is combining several lock pieces, ie Ghostly Prison + Smokestack (will need at least two turns to be useful), or Ghostly Prison + Armageddon (at least it’s immediate, but doesn’t solve the problem, that just means he’s two land drops away from finishing you).

4 Oblivion Ring + 4 Magus handles Goyf. Dreadnought or an early Tombstalker are concerns, but those are really about it that should have you worried.



Also, have you actually played against competent Goblins opponents ? If so, you should have noticed their propency to simply ignore 8 of our lock pieces (CotV, Trinisphere) thanks to Vial and/or Lackey, the only thing slowing them down being Ghostly Prison. Majority of the time (60 %), you won’t have it in your opening 7, and you’ll be in serious trouble during this game, because by the time it goes online or you’ve found an alternative (4cc Magus + Armageddon, or Armageddon in addition to Ghostly Prison), you’ll be at such a low life that they’ll just manage to get through. If you haven’t experienced that, I can only recommend more testing against this deck, or being glad you’re not facing it in your meta : )

How is EE going to help your Goblins matchup? You can take out their Vials/Lackeys, SGC tokens, or Piledriver. Pick one. Then answer their Ringleaders, SGCs and Warchiefs.


And Smokestack is far too slow. That's the main reason I'm trying EE. Basically every time I lost with the deck was because I stabilized at a too low life level and the aggressive player only had a few damage points to get left. Smokestack is simply useless here. EE deals with the threats RIGHT NOW. Not in three or four turns' time. I know this isn’t what Smokestack is supposed to do, which is why it fails at it. But it’s what the deck needs against any kind of aggressive deck, which is the difficult matchup.

The difference is that Smokestack can create a hard lock, and furthers the taxing gameplan of Stax. You're right in that it's not an answer when you're behind in board position, but as long as you're not drawing awfully or they're not drawing awesome (I understand these things happen), you should have advantage on the board. Smokestack functions like a different kind of Armageddon, and can effectively end the game against many permanent-light decks (aggro-control, mainly).

I think the function for which you're looking to use EE is filled in most lists by Prison/Magus. Both of those are big big problems for aggro decks. I'd be curious to know which aggro strategies you're worried about, especially because one of the better aggro decks right now, Merfolk, is not going to complain about you adding an Island.

You seem to want to play this deck reactive-ly, which is not it's intent. Against super-fast aggro strategies it's difficult to be proactive, but trying to change the focus of the deck to improve those match-ups is only going to dilute the prison strategy that makes Stax such an effective deck against almost everything else.

[f|i[p]]

The only thing is : the whole Armageddon Stax deck is sorcery speed. There is not ONE instant in the deck. The only instant-speed thing in the deck is a few activated abilities (Mishra, and EE + Ruins in the list I posted).

In this deck, you wouldn't get any advantage playing the card at instant speed, barring the "now you know i've drawn cards" bit. Quite the opposite, playing it during your own turn is simply the better play anyway. This way you give yourself the possibility to use the cards you just drew without having to wait for your next turn.

I've considered the sorcery thing, and reached the conclusion that it's a complete detail in this deck. But you're right, I should have mentioned that in the previous post.

You have a point, regarding instant speed, being a little worthless in stax's case, but nonetheless it will always be better than sorcery speed. If your pointing out that being instant speed is useless because you should cast it now(during your turn)and use what you draw now because it the better play option for stax. I think Tfk being instant speed doesn't make you wait the next turn,you can cast it as soon as you need or want to, actually giving you more options in regards of when you want to draw your cards.There might also be times that you would encounter situations that being instant speed is worth it..

Also, I very very rarely get mana flooded with stax, and Stax is quite a mana hungry deck since it has quite high cc spells. I would actually rather discard my extra artifact than my extra land. So In my opinion, Tfk is still better than compulsive research. I don't plan to run academy ruins as I think its too slow.


And Smokestack is far too slow. That's the main reason I'm trying EE. Basically every time I lost with the deck was because I stabilized at a too low life level and the aggressive player only had a few damage points to get left. Smokestack is simply useless here. EE deals with the threats RIGHT NOW. Not in three or four turns' time. I know this isn’t what Smokestack is supposed to do, which is why it fails at it. But it’s what the deck needs against any kind of aggressive deck, which is the difficult matchup.

I don't think aggro is that difficult, as I remember, I have at least a 60-40 or 55-45 match up against aggro or even more. The deck is quite taxing for zoo or goblins. If he drops a first turn lackey , you could have also dropped a first turn chalice or trinisphere early on. Sometimes we do stabalize a bit too late, and at times , Ancient tomb is at fault. I aggre that smokestack is bad for an aggro match up, as I usually side it out as well. Well, EE might work well for you since its usually more versatile than smokestack but with out smokestack, you have actually cut yourself of another win condition. What will you win conditions be ? 4 magus and 2 mishra?

[Toad]

I know digging up old threads is bad. But, since I am lacking in resources, is 3 crucible's enough? Or is the 4th that critical?
Stax existed long long before Crucible of Worlds was printed, and was successful without Crucible of Worlds. Crucible of Worlds is obviously a nice tool in the deck, but as any other card there, it is a tool and nothing else. The correct amount of Crucible of Worlds is entirely metagame dependant. While I would never ever play 4 Crucible of Worlds, I tend to run between 2 and 3 copies depending on the ratio of Aggro I'm expecting to face (more Aggro obviously means less Crucibles).


72 pages of content and someone still asks this?!! ACK!
After 72 pages of content (seriously, cut down on threads size already), the most surprising thing is actually that people mindlessly run 4 Crucible of Worlds. It is not a card you want to see in tons of matchups, and most of the time having it in your opening hand is not great.

Regardless the instant vs. sorcery speed discussion, Thirst for Knowledge being an instant is hardly relevant since you will always cast it at sorcery speed anyway. No need to wait for the opponent's EOT when you can draw more lock components right now. Since your only real recursion engine is Crucible of Worlds, and since you run high lands for Mox Diamond, Compulsive Research is indeed better than Thirst for Knowledge. In mid or late game, you will be digging for lock components, not for lands. Vintage builds run Thirst for Knowledge or Intuition because of Goblin Welder.

[scrow213]

I would never run fewer than 4 Crucible. Yes, Stax existed before Crucible. It got better with Crucible. It existed before Trinisphere too. Got better.

Crucible is key to the strategy of the deck and has incredible synnergy with so many pieces:

Smokestack
Armageddon
Wasteland
Mishra's Factory
Horizon Canopy
Mox Diamond
City of Traitors

Knowing that against decks like Thresh (arguably the best deck in Legacy) a Wasteland + Crucible lock basically wins the game, I won't cut them down. I ran 3 for awhile, added the fourth, and never went back. The "wastelock" also cripples Landstill, Team America, and buys time against Ichorid, etc.

I am not saying you should blindly play 4 Crucible, but you should play 4 Crucible because it's the right number. Obviously if you see nothing but Goblins, maybe change that. Otherwise, play 4.

[Toad]

Crucible of Worlds is definitly not key to the deck's strategy. Smokestack is. Chalice of the Void is. Trinisphere is. Not Crucible. There are plenty matchups where you do not want to draw Crucible of Worlds, and tons more where it is a dedicated late game card.

Crucible of Worlds + Wasteland is not an autowin against Threshold (arguably not the best deck in Legacy, and by far). If they have Tarmogoyf out, you will lose the game if all you are allowed to draw are Crucibles and Wastelands. Against Threshold, Crucible is your win condition, a good one once you have cut down their ressources and hold their threats. Crucible is only good in combination with other much needed cards. It is just plain atrocious on its own. As such, running less than 4 makes complete sense.

4 Crucibles is not the right number. It is just a flawed opinion a lot of players have because they focus on Wasteland recursion, and emphasis the synergy with Smokestack. Smokestack wins the game on its own without needing Crucible of Worlds recursion as a back up, and Wasteland recursion is only relevant when opponent cannot get off it, or win the game. My latest White Stax list, which is a few monthes old because Blue Stax is better, runs 2 Crucible of Worlds. I would not run 3 or 4 unless metagame shifts a lot.

[ParkerLewis]

4 Oblivion Ring + 4 Magus handles Goyf. Dreadnought or an early Tombstalker are concerns, but those are really about it that should have you worried.

I agree it does. Except you're not running them MD, which means you're more than likely going to have trouble winnning game 1.

And with the time issues, we all know it will be a challenge for this dek to proceed to win two games fast enough after that.


How is EE going to help your Goblins matchup? You can take out their Vials/Lackeys, SGC tokens, or Piledriver. Pick one. Then answer their Ringleaders, SGCs and Warchiefs.

EE won't take care of them all. It will take care of the currently problematic ones. Either the most dangerous ones at the moment, or simply the ones that are sticking in spite of Magus. In any case, it's a necessary thing to do, and EE is simply the best card to actually do it in time.


The difference is that Smokestack can create a hard lock, and furthers the taxing gameplan of Stax. You're right in that it's not an answer when you're behind in board position, but as long as you're not drawing awfully or they're not drawing awesome (I understand these things happen), you should have advantage on the board. Smokestack functions like a different kind of Armageddon, and can effectively end the game against many permanent-light decks (aggro-control, mainly).

I think the function for which you're looking to use EE is filled in most lists by Prison/Magus. Both of those are big big problems for aggro decks. I'd be curious to know which aggro strategies you're worried about, especially because one of the better aggro decks right now, Merfolk, is not going to complain about you adding an Island.

You seem to want to play this deck reactive-ly, which is not it's intent. Against super-fast aggro strategies it's difficult to be proactive, but trying to change the focus of the deck to improve those match-ups is only going to dilute the prison strategy that makes Stax such an effective deck against almost everything else.

I know what you mean. That's the basis of how the deck should function. Problem is, the whole Prison / Magus strategy is often too slow in this format. Yes, it's effective, but it still lets the opponent do a few additonal points of damage. And when it comes online, you're far often too close to death already.

The aggro strategies I'm worried are basically... all of them. In almost every instance, I've felt that the current configuration (Prison, Magus, & Stack) was simply a bit too slow to make the cut. I've lost far too many games where everything was in place but i was short even only one or two life points to absorb their final gasp.

In this aspect, the current configuration I'm testing (EE, Ruins, CR) has really shined for me since the beginning. Today again I won a match against Faerie Stompy because I've been able to repeatedly deal with two Sea Drakes (the first one was equipped with SoFI) thanks to a single recurring EE @ 3. There is no way I could have done that with any kind of Prison / Stack / Oblivion Ring combination (unless by seeing multiple Rings). Stack would have just done nothing in time, and O Ring would have taken care of the first Drake, but would have left the equipment on the table and not done anything about the second Drake.

Finally, you're very correctly mentioning the potential repercussion on the deck's effectiveness against other strategies. Let me ask you : are there any matchups where the loss of Smokestack & O Ring for EE, Ruins and a drawing suite is that much of a problem ?


;321885']I aggre that smokestack is bad for an aggro match up, as I usually side it out as well. Well, EE might work well for you since its usually more versatile than smokestack but with out smokestack, you have actually cut yourself of another win condition. What will you win conditions be ? 4 magus and 2 mishra?

Yes, that's what they are, except it's only 3 Maguses. So far it hasn't proved a problem, mainly because I usually end up stabilizing and taking control on a higher life total and thus can swing more agressively. But i could understand it if the need for something additional were to arise.

On the instant vs sorcery thing, see Toad's post (or mine last page), as this is my position exactly.

[scrow213]

Crucible of Worlds is definitly not key to the deck's strategy. Smokestack is. Chalice of the Void is. Trinisphere is. Not Crucible. There are plenty matchups where you do not want to draw Crucible of Worlds, and tons more where it is a dedicated late game card.

Crucible of Worlds + Wasteland is not an autowin against Threshold (arguably not the best deck in Legacy, and by far). If they have Tarmogoyf out, you will lose the game if all you are allowed to draw are Crucibles and Wastelands. Against Threshold, Crucible is your win condition, a good one once you have cut down their ressources and hold their threats. Crucible is only good in combination with other much needed cards. It is just plain atrocious on its own. As such, running less than 4 makes complete sense.

4 Crucibles is not the right number. It is just a flawed opinion a lot of players have because they focus on Wasteland recursion, and emphasis the synergy with Smokestack. Smokestack wins the game on its own without needing Crucible of Worlds recursion as a back up, and Wasteland recursion is only relevant when opponent cannot get off it, or win the game. My latest White Stax list, which is a few monthes old because Blue Stax is better, runs 2 Crucible of Worlds. I would not run 3 or 4 unless metagame shifts a lot.

Ok, first of all, let's start with this argument:


Crucible of Worlds + Wasteland is not an autowin against Threshold. If they have Tarmogoyf out, you will lose the game if all you are allowed to draw are Crucibles and Wastelands.

That has to be the most retarded point I have ever heard. If that situation is the case and all you draw is (Trinisphere, Chalice, lands, Mox Diamond, etc) you will lose. I didn't say against Thresh you want to draw a ton of Crucibles and Wastelands. It is reasonble that in addition to Wasteland and Crucible you will draw (Magus of the Tabernacle, Ghostly Prison), in which case you will quickly stabilize, and they will not have much hope for attacking. (And just to note, saying it is arguably the best deck also means it is arguably not the best deck)


4 Crucibles is not the right number. It is just a flawed opinion a lot of players have because they focus on Wasteland recursion, and emphasis the synergy with Smokestack.

Also the synnergy with Armageddon, and our ability to quickly recover and set a lock. There is that part too. I am less likely to throw down an Armageddon knowing I have 1-2 Crucibles buried somewhere in my deck than if I know there are 4. It also means Factory becomes a permanent chump blocker and Horizon Canopy doubles our draws every turn. Additionally, if you "focus on Wasteland recursion" against decks that worry about Wasteland (Thresh, Team America, Landstill, etc), that's probably a solid play. And placing "emphasis on the synergy with Smokestack" also chews up your opponents resources, and when combined with other cards in the deck wins you the game.

The point is, I will always want an early Crucible and I never mind seeing a second one either. Several decks have removal for it, and I can always throw it away to a Stack if I need to. You can play your 2 Crucibles, I will continue to enjoy the consistent draws that makes Stax good.

[Toad]

That has to be the most retarded point I have ever heard.
I usually dont reply to blatant and pointless flames, but still, since you do not seem to understand how Stax works ...


If that situation is the case and all you draw is (Trinisphere, Chalice, lands, Mox Diamond, etc) you will lose.
First thing is here, a turn one Crucible of Worlds does nothing relevant. A turn one Chalice of the Void or Trinisphere stops Threshold down cold. I want my opening cards to be relevant on turn one when I play Stax, since most of my game plan revolves around this opening hand. Turn one Crucible of Worlds is a very weak play on its own.


It is reasonble that in addition to Wasteland and Crucible you will draw (Magus of the Tabernacle, Ghostly Prison), in which case you will quickly stabilize, and they will not have much hope for attacking.
Magus of the Tabernacle is enough for stopping Tarmogoyf, no need for Crucible of Worlds here. Furthermore, if you have Ghostly Prison or Magus of the Tabernacle out, a single Wasteland is usually enough. If not, Engineered Explosives or Ensnaring Bridge will do the job faster than Crucible of Worlds. When facing threats, Crucible is clearly the last card I want to draw.


It also means Factory becomes a permanent chump blocker
If you need to chump block every single turn, you are in a pretty bad shape already. I dislike running cards that shine when I'm losing. Once again, instead of drawing this Crucible, I'd rather have drawn an Explosives, or an Oblivion Ring. Cards that do actual stuff here.


Horizon Canopy doubles our draws every turn
A cute late game play that does not require you to run 4 Crucibles, since, well, it is late game only. A weak argument overall. You do not even run 4 Horizon Canopy anyway. Instead of Canopy + Crucible, you could have gone for Academy + Explosives instead, for the same global effect. (reinforcing a lock). It is fairly obvious to see that Explosives is better than Crucible early game.


Additionally, if you "focus on Wasteland recursion" against decks that worry about Wasteland (Thresh, Team America, Landstill, etc), that's probably a solid play.
These are 3 good matchups, even without Wasteland recursion. Having access to Wasteland recursion does not turns the matchup around, and is thus not a needed play and definitly not an argument for running 4. Once again, running actual answers is better than a topdecked Crucible there.


And placing "emphasis on the synergy with Smokestack" also chews up your opponents resources
Smokestack chews up the opponent resources, you do not need Crucible of Worlds to do that. 100% of your deck is a permanent, so you can handle Smokestack @ 1 forever, without the need of Crucible of Worlds. No opposing deck can do this.


I will continue to enjoy the consistent draws that makes Stax good.
A deck running 4 offs only is not always consistent. You can run 1 offs and 2 offs, and still have a consistent deck - see Vintage decks for example. You can have 4 offs only, and still be horribly inconsistent - see Belcher for example. Stax is not good because it has 4 offs all the way. It is good because it has 4 Wasteland, 4 Chalice of the Void and 4 Trinisphere. Everything else is fillers. Even if it runs 4 offs only, White Stax will always lack consistency since it relies on fast mana to power out its spells, and completely lacks card draw and tutors to smooth his topdecks. Threshold is consistent, Stax is not. Running 2 or 3 Crucibles does not make Stax less consistent. It actually decreases the mulligan rate, as hands with 2 Crucibles should be automatically sent back.

The only matchup where you NEED 4 Crucible of Worlds is the mirror match, because Crucible is the best card there. Stax mirrors are yet to be heard of on a large Legacy scale.

[scrow213]

First thing is here, a turn one Crucible of Worlds does nothing relevant. A turn one Chalice of the Void or Trinisphere stops Threshold down cold. I want my opening cards to be relevant on turn one when I play Stax, since most of my game plan revolves around this opening hand. Turn one Crucible of Worlds is a very weak play on its own.


Magus of the Tabernacle is enough for stopping Tarmogoyf, no need for Crucible of Worlds here. Furthermore, if you have Ghostly Prison or Magus of the Tabernacle out, a single Wasteland is usually enough. If not, Engineered Explosives or Ensnaring Bridge will do the job faster than Crucible of Worlds. When facing threats, Crucible is clearly the last card I want to draw.


If you need to chump block every single turn, you are in a pretty bad shape already. I dislike running cards that shine when I'm losing. Once again, instead of drawing this Crucible, I'd rather have drawn an Explosives, or an Oblivion Ring. Cards that do actual stuff here.

These are 3 good matchups, even without Wasteland recursion. Having access to Wasteland recursion does not turns the matchup around, and is thus not a needed play and definitly not an argument for running 4. Once again, running actual answers is better than a topdecked Crucible there.


Smokestack chews up the opponent resources, you do not need Crucible of Worlds to do that. 100% of your deck is a permanent, so you can handle Smokestack @ 1 forever, without the need of Crucible of Worlds. No opposing deck can do this.


A deck running 4 offs only is not always consistent. You can run 1 offs and 2 offs, and still have a consistent deck - see Vintage decks for example. You can have 4 offs only, and still be horribly inconsistent - see Belcher for example. Stax is not good because it has 4 offs all the way. It is good because it has 4 Wasteland, 4 Chalice of the Void and 4 Trinisphere. Everything else is fillers. Even if it runs 4 offs only, White Stax will always lack consistency since it relies on fast mana to power out its spells, and completely lacks card draw and tutors to smooth his topdecks. Threshold is consistent, Stax is not. Running 2 or 3 Crucibles does not make Stax less consistent. It actually decreases the mulligan rate, as hands with 2 Crucibles should be automatically sent back.

The only matchup where you NEED 4 Crucible of Worlds is the mirror match, because Crucible is the best card there. Stax mirrors are yet to be heard of on a large Legacy scale.


Not a flame. That point was useless. I didn't say you should drop Crucible first turn. An opening Chalice or Trinisphere hurts Thresh, but hardly stops the deck. Magus stops 1 'goyf. Magus and Prison can stop 2. So can Magus + wastelock. Or Prison and Wastelock. EE is tough to play in this deck, even with Moxen. Ensnaring Bridge has been discussed and dismissed. If I need to chump every turn, and am in bad shape, at least I am not dead. It will at least buy me a few turns to find an out. I already have O-Rings, so that point fails to show why I should drop Crucibles. Smokestack gets infinitely better with Crucible. With Crucible you can run Smokestack @2 indefinitely, which is much harder for them to cope with. Vintage runs lots of low-count cards, given that they have tutors and lots of draw. See Ancestral Recall, Demonic Tutor, etc.

If White Stax lacks consistency, as you claim, then why would you run a 2-of card, further decreasing the consistency? Seeing 2 Crucible is as likely as 2 Trinisphere, also useless, or 2 of any other card in the deck. With no real draw power, why wouldn't you run 4 of all the hard-lock pieces? It just allows you to get the lock down sooner, more reliably.

[Toad]

As I already stated, consistency is not related to the amount of 4-ofs you play. Playing only 2 Crucible of Worlds does not decrease consistency.


With no real draw power, why wouldn't you run 4 of all the hard-lock pieces?
I run all the hard-lock pieces as a 4 of. That is, Smokestack, Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void and Wasteland. These are the important pieces here.

I also run 4 Magus of the Tabernacle and 4 Ghostly Prison, since even if these are not hard-lock pieces, I want one in my opening hand. The only cards I do not run as a 4 of are the conditional cards, or these I do not want to see in my opening hand, and this includes Crucible of Worlds (which falls in both categories). Since Crucible is not part of the core lock engine, I do not mind not drawing one for the first part of the game, and often for the entire game.

[Mordel]

@PL

I think confusing your list with with OBSG's list is more accurate. If you want to make a rebuttal or something, that's cool, but I wasn't talking about your list...nor had I ever seen it before you posted it the most recently.

[Patrick]

Dear Frog:

Crucible is one of the best cards in the deck. All of the cards that are better than Crucible are in there because they are good with Crucible. I'm talking Smokestack, Armageddon, lands. All these cards get better when your graveyard is also your hand. Chalice of the Void isn't one of the best cards. In some matchups it's obviously great, and it can win the game if it stops an opponents land-light Brainstorm. However I've never won a game because I drew Chalice on turn 4. I have won a game because I drew Crucible on turn 4. Or whatever. I'm sure you get it.

Dear Scrow:

Let's keep it clean. I agree with your views but the manner in which you are presenting them is destructive and an eyesore on my computer. See you at the Grand Prix.

[Noman Peopled]

I don't think I'd be comfortable with less than four Crucibles (or conceivably three). I think the reasons have been chewed on often enough, but just for the hell of it:
I can't think of many non-combo decks that aren't susceptible to Waste/Crucible. If that was the only thing, okay. But it also helps alleviate the big beater problem with Factories (incidentally protecting one of the very few real win conditions), and offsets the disadvantage inherent in the mana base (Diamonds, Cities, and - indirectly - Tombs; which makes the early game more stable as well as faster). Smokestack is kind of slow. Well, with Crucible it's faster. (Plus, it gets rid of "dead" Crucibles). I can now play Armageddon even if I'm behind instead of just when I'm on the offensive (which makes taxing better). It makes my Factories attack into Bobs.

A first- or second-turn Crucible does not do nothing. It may do nothing now, but if it'll do impressive stuff a little later, that's fine. It's not like I'm going for the tenth-turn win.

[f|i[p]]

@crucible

In all honesty I would never go down to less than 3 crucibles. If I were to run less than 4, it will be 3. I don't actually mind having 3 as I usually don't need it in my opening hand. Crucible is good as counter bait at times,it gets better with smokestack, armageddon and wastelock. It will be hard to compare as vintage stax run 3 crucibles, one thing about vintage stax is that they run tutors, and they don't run main deck armageddons. I still think crucible is essential to the decks strategy. If I were forced to drop a crucible, for a better card, I would drop it to 3 and no less.

@debates for certain cards

If you have made your point, and do not wish to change your view, I find that there is no need to flame and discuss it further. You can not force your point of view on someone. Lets be constructive.

[scrow213]

Yes, I apologize. I get a little... heated at times. Sorry for my rants and whatnot.

Anyway, I really would like to increase Horizon Canopy, but I don't know if I like the risk. It sucks that it deals you damage, but I like seeing it reliably, and it adds another source of :g: for my SB options. Any thoughts?

[Skeggi]

Oh my god, you guys posted alot of crap during the weekend. About the Cucible issue, Nihil pretty much summed it up:



I've written it elsewhere in this thread, and you can ask other people to back me up on this: you must run 4 Crucible of Worlds in Stax, period. I am as confident on this number as on any other I have ever written.

It's redundant in multiples, yes (other than as a Smokestack sacrifice). It's also the glue that makes Stax a deck worth playing, and one of the two sources of significant card advantage you run (the other being Chalice).

Without Crucible, your cards have to show up in a specific way in order not to shit on each other. With Crucible, you have a deck full of high-quality cocaine powder ready to be snorted from 20-year-old Kylie Minogue's ass. Play fucking four.

About a 62-card deck with only 2 Smokestacks, and the other deck which is Smokestackless: you guys just have to learn to handle a Smokestack in my opinion. Yes, it's slow, but once you really know how to use it, it's the most powerful card in your deck (unless you're playing against Goblins or combo, but you should win those match-ups anyway). The problem with Smokestack is, you really need to learn how to use it. How high to stack it, and what to keep and what to sac in certain situations. It's not something I can explain over the forum, but I can tell you, dropping below 3 is probably a mistake. There have been lists of Staxless Stax before, but they all failed. Feel free to prove me wrong though.

[f|i[p]]

As for my sideboard :with the green splash

I currently have these:

3 exalted angel
2 O rings
2 Wrath of God
3 K. grips ---I could even go to 4 if really needed
3 choke
2 needle/EE/Keg could be a different card

These are my choices,

I still keep exalted angel on the side as I found her to be a lot of help in certain match ups. I can bring her in for magus who would useless in certain match ups or add up the pressure along side magus

I have wrath on my sideboard still, against aggro. It helps a lot even as a 2 of.

I don't run graveyard hate as I usually don't find the need for it.

@horizon canopy

If your running a light green splash, its worth it. its not really there to provide you with mana, its actually there to give you draw.

[Toad]

I have won a game because I drew Crucible on turn 4.

but if it ll do impressive stuff a little later.

... and this is exactly the reason why I do not run 4 Crucible.

The synergy between Crucible of Worlds and Wasteland, Smokestack or any other card might be very good, this is not a reason for running 4. Tangle Wire has massive synergy with Wasteland, Smokestack, Trinisphere and Armageddon, yet it isnt played in Legacy Stax. Sphere of Resistance has massive synergy with all these cards, yet it is a mere sideboard card most of the time. Synergy does not dictate everything. You usually run 4 copies of a card you want to see in your opening hand every single game, and usually these that you do not mind seeing in multiple copies over the course of a game.

Do Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere fall into that category? Yes, and this is why you do run 4. If you can, you will want to drop one turn one every single game. Do Crucible of Worlds fall into that category? No. You want to see a Wasteland or a Smokestack before going for the Crucible of Worlds. You almost never want to drop Crucible of Worlds on turn one. To be honest, there are no matchup where I want to drop a Crucible of Worlds before turn three or turn four, and there are matchups where you want Crucible of Worlds by turn five or six, never sooner. Yes, Crucible of Worlds is what glues all the lock components in some matchups. But glue is only good when you have actual stuff to glue together, or else it just stays around doing nothing, except wasting you mana and draws. This is why running less than 4 Crucible of Worlds is completely acceptable, and often the proper call.

The fact that a player named Nihil Credo states that 4 Crucibles is mandatory does not mean it is correct. My intensive Stax testing made me reach a way different conclusion, and I can guarantee that I have played and tested Stax much more than anyone else on these boards. Long term Stax players I have discussed this issue with reached similar conclusions, and run 2 or 3 Crucibles, sometimes with additional copies in the SB.

[DireLemming]

Cutting a Crucible has only appeared as an improve in Dutch Stax.
... and in Sun Tower and in Eternal Garden and ... The point I am trying to make is, if Armageddon Stax is really so dependent on Crucible, maybe it's a symptom of a deeper problem (with the build and/or strategy).

[Skeggi]

... and in Sun Tower and in Eternal Garden and ... The point I am trying to make is, if Armageddon Stax is really so dependent on Crucible, maybe it's a symptom of a deeper problem (with the build and/or strategy).

True. That's partially why I developped Dutch Stax. Armageddon Stax, is as the name indicates, very reliant on Armageddon. The entire deck is built on the fact that you will have lands in your graveyard, and incidentally, your opponent too.

[Mordel]

@Toad

You may want to consider being a bit more open with information like that, no?

In any event, as numerous people before me have suggested: four crucibles are run because between the synergy with smoker, geddon, wasteland, combating opposing wastelands, allowing for one to go city of traitors--->city of traitors, chalice etc without hosing yourself and other such plays and a deck that has no actual draw or search, four is a good number to run because it maximizes your chances of drawing one. Crucible does nothing on its own, however it is an important cog in the mechanism of the deck's operation whether it is used to force an opponent to search up basics and run at partial efficiency or allow you to ramp a smoker up to two or three. Even in a variant that I play which doesn't require geddon at all, I still run four if only because I like to have another ready following the first being countered.

I honestly don't see why I had to point that out when it has been pointed out a number of times before. As far as I am concerned that is all there is to running four crucibles. I don't need any other reasons.

[Nihil Credo]

This is getting heated. This isn't good.

It has been made clear that the vast majority of people thinks 4 Crucible is the right number. Refrain from just piling up on that point and stick to facts.

Also, whether someone is a random or the Almight God of Eternal Magic does not concern the point we're discussing, so it should not be brought up by either camp.

[Joe_C]

The reason to run 4x crucible is as Mordel said. Your first is likely to get countered. And drawing into another one, or playing multiples even is huge when you get a stack online. Besides crucible making mox diamond an even better turn 1 play, it is a bomb that your opponent will most likely scramble to handle as soon as possible. Crucible will just win you games, that point is not even argueable.

[Mordel]

Good call!

I forgot about the mox, city o traitors/tomb, crucible play on the first turn that allows for a strong first turn play and a land drop on the second turn to allow you to get a second turn chalice for two, magus or in my case a moat/humility much of the time.

I also forgot to mention how nice crucible is with "factorays".

[Patrick]

I agree with Credo, the X Crucible of Worlds discussion is over. Some people run 3, most people run 4. I haven't seen a single post suggesting someone is willing to change their list.

On a different matter, I cut my Horizon Canopy and added a second Kor Haven. Someone above said that it was amazing in there deck, and I realized having it more often is probably more amazing. I know it's Legendary, but so is Flagstones and I almost never hit that problem. Kor Haven has been my out to Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker many games, and I'm sure we can agree on the fact that an opposing deck presenting 1 large threat can be trouble for Stax, since none of our cards are designed to deal with single threats quickly. I don't know if I can take credit for suggesting Kor Haven, but I do know that in July a friend and I worked on a Stax list that won a Mox Emerald and we had Haven in the build.

On a more serious note, I'm having a huge problem with my board.

3 Aura of Silence
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Suppression Field
3 Runed Halo
2 Powder Keg
1 Exalted Angel

I know the 2 Keg/ 1 Angel is weird, it was 3 Angel but I only own 2 Kegs. The first three slots are solid in what I'm taking to Chicago, please don't attempt to convince me Needle is better or to splash green. I understand the strengths but I'm not interested. I see Halo either being huge or dead all weekend. Naming Goyf, Trygon Predator, Wombstalker, Naught or whatever is all good, but could this slot simply be a better card? Also, exactly how good is Powder Keg, and what else can be used?

[Mordel]

Kor haven is quite nice and two makes sense, but I you must be one of the luckiest stax players on the planet to have never run into an issue with flagstones being legendary.

I still run four regardless because they are just that good, but I have had to basically been time walked because of them before.

I like powder keg a lot. I am sort of undecided on field though: I ran them for a while, but most of the decks that they come in against use duals, which I like to waste and while suppression field doesn't make wasting lands impossible, it does make it irritatingly limiting in using three mana essentially to destroy one land.

If I saw more 4c landstill, my feelings would probably change towards them a lot though.

[scrow213]

Kor haven is quite nice and two makes sense, but I you must be one of the luckiest stax players on the planet to have never run into an issue with flagstones being legendary.

I still run four regardless because they are just that good, but I have had to basically been time walked because of them before.

I like powder keg a lot. I am sort of undecided on field though: I ran them for a while, but most of the decks that they come in against use duals, which I like to waste and while suppression field doesn't make wasting lands impossible, it does make it irritatingly limiting in using three mana essentially to destroy one land.

If I saw more 4c landstill, my feelings would probably change towards them a lot though.

I agree here. I play 3 because I hate timewalking myself when I hit 2 of them. I would love to play more Kor Haven, but with it being Legendary, I can't afford the risk. And as far as Flagstones being Legendary, they at least replace themselves if you play 2.

My board is currently:

3x Powder Keg (versatile sweeper)
4x Pithing Needle (again, protection from EE, Deed, etc)
4x Choke (really wrecks blue, which is a large portion of the format)
4x Krosan Grip (Deed/EE/Top, etc, as well as taking out a Dreadnought)

That's what I currently run, but still haven't gotten to test against Dreadstill since the change. I love Choke though.

[Nihil Credo]

On a different matter, I cut my Horizon Canopy and added a second Kor Haven. Someone above said that it was amazing in there deck, and I realized having it more often is probably more amazing. I know it's Legendary, but so is Flagstones and I almost never hit that problem. Kor Haven has been my out to Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker many games, and I'm sure we can agree on the fact that an opposing deck presenting 1 large threat can be trouble for Stax, since none of our cards are designed to deal with single threats quickly. I don't know if I can take credit for suggesting Kor Haven, but I do know that in July a friend and I worked on a Stax list that won a Mox Emerald and we had Haven in the build.

I never ran 2x less because of the Legendary issue than because it's yet another colourless source. If your white mana count remains healthy, go ahead; in my case, I prefer to use maindeck 3-4x Exalted Angels which put further stress on the manabase (and they really want 4x City of Traitors too).

By the way, I think I love you now; Kor Haven's been my pet card for a while (if we're interested in dates, according to the search button I first tested it in February '08).


On a more serious note, I'm having a huge problem with my board.

3 Aura of Silence
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Suppression Field
3 Runed Halo
2 Powder Keg
1 Exalted Angel

I know the 2 Keg/ 1 Angel is weird, it was 3 Angel but I only own 2 Kegs. The first three slots are solid in what I'm taking to Chicago, please don't attempt to convince me Needle is better or to splash green. I understand the strengths but I'm not interested. I see Halo either being huge or dead all weekend. Naming Goyf, Trygon Predator, Wombstalker, Naught or whatever is all good, but could this slot simply be a better card? Also, exactly how good is Powder Keg, and what else can be used?

Runed Halo is pretty great since, unlike the other main contender Oblivion Ring, it has a lot of synergy with the rest of your deck (plus you may meet Progenitus). The main downside is the coloured mana cost: if you run less than ~11 white mana sources (plus Moxes) I'd be concerned about it.

I'm not a fan of Powder Keg; it's all too often a worse Oblivion Ring. It used to be a good consideration when Ichorid and Empty the Warrens were everywhere and your Prisons not always fast enough; now they're on the decline and less of a concern. I'd just play 3x Angels here; they're nice to have against aggro, even if they hit a turn later or two due to less white mana, and in general they're pretty important to have somewhere in order not to lose to time.

Sphere of Resistance is a card I consider rather narrow, and the symmetry is often nasty. Since you already have an abundance of cards to bring in against Brainstorm/Ponder/Top decks, I'd either replace these with Ethersworn Canonist if you're worried about combo, or take a gamble on Tendrils deck and devote the slots to other matchups (you're not defenseless anyway: MD artifacts plus Halo plus AoS for LEDs/Petals/Moxes plus Angel for a clock are a decent package).

Also, if you can get your hands on a copy of The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, it's a great 1-of for the sideboard.

[trollwarrior_666]

I prefer Glowrider against combo (which is only ANT in my meta) because they can't duress it away and it doesn't die to Serenity. It isn't as easy to play on turn 1, but usually ANT doesn't win that fast.

Another advantage of Glowrider is that he is a clock (even though he's not that fast).

[scrow213]

I don't even board against combo, but that seems like a decent play. Although I think Sphere is better simply because it is easier to cast turn 1. But Chalice/Trini usually wins that match anyway, in my experience.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

On a more serious note, I'm having a huge problem with my board.

3 Aura of Silence
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Suppression Field
3 Runed Halo
2 Powder Keg
1 Exalted Angel

I know the 2 Keg/ 1 Angel is weird, it was 3 Angel but I only own 2 Kegs. The first three slots are solid in what I'm taking to Chicago, please don't attempt to convince me Needle is better or to splash green. I understand the strengths but I'm not interested. I see Halo either being huge or dead all weekend. Naming Goyf, Trygon Predator, Wombstalker, Naught or whatever is all good, but could this slot simply be a better card? Also, exactly how good is Powder Keg, and what else can be used?

I Figure that the Aura of Silence is for the Enchantress/Stax Matchup, and the Spheres are good against the ANT/TES/Belcher Matchup. I Found that Although AoS is good, I find Rule of Law serves as an amazing card against both of the scenario's. It Limits Enchantress to play 1 spell a turn, which wins the game for me:wink: . It Also Makes Combo Lose pretty easily. I'm Finding that a lot of 2 CC in the sideboard can go both ways. There has been times where chalice @ 2 has been out, and I need to resolve Runed Halo. I am a huge fan of defense grid though, because it just helps me against blue decks all day long. I find That even though Chalice is great, I find myself sideboarding StP's, to stop the early Predator, Naught, Goyf, Wombstalker.

[Patrick]

The decision has been made, Keg is out and it's back up to 3 Angel.

Sphere of Resistance has been good for me. I don't use it as a tool to beat combo decks, I use bring it in during matchups that I want to slow down. Burn, Sligh, Combo etc. can go too fast for me to stay in the game, and a Sphere can really buy the time you need to resolve 3-Sphere and then Geddon before you die. Or Prison/Moat, whatever.

[Patrick]

What do you fella's think about Karmic Justice in the board?

Things it answers:

Trygon Predator
Armageddons (Rare mirror match)
Sinkhole
Wasteland
Pernicious Deed
Krosan Grip
Seal of Cleansing/Primordium
Engineered Explosives

Other bullshit.

It answers some of these better than others, but maybe it's worth a shot. This could reasonably come in against Landstill, Eva Green, Dreadstill, decks with Wasteland or whatever. I'm wondering how much better it can make bad matchups.

[scrow213]

I had been thinking about it as well. I really still need work on my SB. I currently have:

4x Choke
4x Krosan Grip
4x Pithing Needle
3x Powder Keg

I don't know though. Keg is so slow, but gives us another out against combo tokens and other smaller nonsense. Also good against Dreadstill or Landstill. Needle is also good, just don't know if Karmic would be a good replacement. I think Choke and Grip are staying for sure. Bah! I say they give us 20 card sideboards!

[f|i[p]]

@karmic justice

I own a set and never really got to use it, it was very defensive and would usually get disenchanted or gripped first before they deed or whatever. On game 2, where you would usually board this in, players would actually bring in disenchant effects just to break stax down. It never really caught much attention as I assume its because it never really helped our bad matchups as much as we would like it to.

@scrow

I don't think you would need karmic justice if you have K.grips in the board. The only real time I would use Karmic justice was to buy me time against Deed based decks. It was good against anything that destoys prermanents but I specifically brought those in for Deed effects. But since you have K.grips for deed, this should really help you enough.

I actually like EE better than keg simply because they can get through counter balance, but if there were tons of g.teeg, Id go for kegs.

[Joe_C]

Who (if any) has played with a 62 card list as a norm.?
Ive tried cutting a city of traitors so I can run a 4th oblivion ring main, and sometimes I am missing that 26th land. I may kick the 4th ring to the board, but it is such an "answer all" card I love seeing it in my hand early in case things get out of hand.

[Mordel]

Karmic justice has been discussed before.

In case no one wants to flip back a number of pages or search it up, the side of the argument that I remember and agree with is that for the most part trying to stop your stuff from being blown up is a better approach than making sure everything gets blown up.

As far as I am concerned an answer stops a specific threat and karmic justice is not actually an answer, it just makes destroying things more costly. Here is the kicker though: it is quite difficult to set up again after having your board wiped and regardless of your opponent's end, you are probably going to have a harder time recovering because you don't run draw and you weren't the one pulling the trigger on a deed either.

Something comes to mind that I remember some pro guy writing somewhere and it is aggro decks always draw aggro and control decks need to draw answers. That expression is polarized even more with stax because you will need to draw specific pieces all over again to try and combat a rock deck's beat or whatever.

Seriously though. Many of these questions being asked have been discussed in detail. If you don't want to sift through all the pages, you can always use the advanced search function.

[Nihil Credo]

What do you fella's think about Karmic Justice in the board?

I played it for a rather long while, then dropped it for more proactive solutions (Defense Grid, Suppression Field / Pithing Needle).

The problem with the card is that you're not really interested in free Vindicates or even Armageddons: if you get to kill their Tarmogoyf as they destroy your Chalice of the Void, it's still a great deal for them. They play a new creature, which was probably dead in hand due to Prisons or the Chalice itself, and they're back to square one (aka the Maindeck Oblivion Ring Problem). Destroying lands with it is even more unreliable since pretty much every possible target is much better than a Stone Rain.

You're putting a price on their spells, but the price they pay is likely less painful than if you had just played another disruptive permanent in Karmic Justice's stead.

[Dirtyoldguy366]

I have a hard time with enchantress/aggro loam. I havent seen a decklist in the last few pages so here's the one i'm playing with.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
2 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [REW] Wasteland
7 [LRW] Plains (1)
1 [NE] Kor Haven

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle
3 [ON] Exalted Angel

// Spells
3 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [US] Smokestack
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [JGC] Armageddon
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [P3] Ravages of War

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [9E] Defense Grid
SB: 3 [RAV] Suppression Field
SB: 3 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 3 [FNM] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [LG] Moat

Moats are something new i've been trying as i've freed up a few proxy slots. I havent had much of a chance to test them but i'm hoping they will be good against loam's big creatures. Supression Field is good but doesnt seem to be enough to give me an edge in this matchup.

I added 1 ravages of war for 1 oblivion ring... maybe the 4th ring needs a spot in the board. I often found myself wishing that (random card) was an armageddon.

Aura of Silence in the board are for enchantress which destroyed me in the top 4 last tournament. These are replacing powder kegs. I didn't find myself siding these in that often.

I cut my 4th crucible of worlds for an exalted angel. There is a lot of storm combo in my meta so it is nice to kill them quickly after stalling with a trinisphere, chalice, rule of law, etc. I'm still not sure about this one.

I've played with a lot of random 1 of lands including Dust Bowl, Horizon Canopy, and Gods' Eye. I'm liking Kor Haven at this point. Its ability to answer Dreadnought is important as Dreadstill is another deck that places frequenly in my meata. It came in for a factory because i upped my threat count with another angel.

I traded 1 City of Traitors for a plains because i included some WW casting cost cards in the sideboard and do not want to see 2 in my opening hand. It is also nice to ramp smokestack to 2 and be able to hold it for an additional turn.

These above changes were made following a 4th place finish, losing to Dreadstill and Prison enchantress in the top 4. The rest of the meta includes Aggro Loam (i lost) Storm combo (i won!), and random aggro decks.

I've tested some of my changes extensively, others are more recent.

Any critiques?

[scrow213]

I have a hard time with enchantress/aggro loam. I havent seen a decklist in the last few pages so here's the one i'm playing with.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
2 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [REW] Wasteland
7 [LRW] Plains (1)
1 [NE] Kor Haven

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle
3 [ON] Exalted Angel

// Spells
3 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [US] Smokestack
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [JGC] Armageddon
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [P3] Ravages of War

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [9E] Defense Grid
SB: 3 [RAV] Suppression Field
SB: 3 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 3 [FNM] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [LG] Moat

Moats are something new i've been trying as i've freed up a few proxy slots. I havent had much of a chance to test them but i'm hoping they will be good against loam's big creatures. Supression Field is good but doesnt seem to be enough to give me an edge in this matchup.

I added 1 ravages of war for 1 oblivion ring... maybe the 4th ring needs a spot in the board. I often found myself wishing that (random card) was an armageddon.

Aura of Silence in the board are for enchantress which destroyed me in the top 4 last tournament.

I cut my 4th crucible of worlds for an exalted angel. There is a lot of storm combo in my meta so it is nice to kill them quickly after stalling with a trinisphere, chalice, rule of law, etc. I'm still not sure about this one.

I've played with a lot of random 1 of lands including Dust Bowl, Horizon Canopy, and Gods' Eye. I'm liking Kor Haven at this point. Its ability to answer Dreadnought is important as Dreadstill is another deck that places frequenly in my meata. It came in for a factory because i upped my threat count with another angel.

I traded 1 City of Traitors for a plains because i included some WW casting cost cards in the sideboard and do not want to see 2 in my opening hand. It is also nice to ramp smokestack to 2 and be able to hold it for an additional turn.

These above changes were made following a 4th place finish, losing to Dreadstill and Prison enchantress in the top 4. The rest of the meta includes Aggro Loam (i lost) Storm combo (i won!), and random aggro decks.

I've tested some of my changes extensively, others are more recent.

Any critiques?

I struggle a lot with Dreadstill too. However, I splashed green in my list so I could add Krosan Grip and Choke in the SB which win the game against decks like that. Grip is excellent in that it takes out their Dreadnought straight through counter backup.

[Dirtyoldguy366]

I struggle a lot with Dreadstill too. However, I splashed green in my list so I could add Krosan Grip and Choke in the SB which win the game against decks like that. Grip is excellent in that it takes out their Dreadnought straight through counter backup.

I have never experimented with a green splash. I consider the Dreadstill matchup to be 50/50 at worst though i devote a lot of sideboard slots to it (Defense Grid, Trini, Supression Field) The deck i fear the most is enchantress it got 1st place last time and Sigil of the Empty Throne should replace his alternate win condition (opalescence) which is WAY meaner. I hope he doesnt show up. The combination of quick development of mana, combined with a lot of card advantage and a ton of permanents makes this deck a tough customer.

Anybody have any insight on the Enchantress matchup?

[scrow213]

I have never experimented with a green splash. I consider the Dreadstill matchup to be 50/50 at worst though i devote a lot of sideboard slots to it (Defense Grid, Trini, Supression Field) The deck i fear the most is enchantress it got 1st place last time and Sigil of the Empty Throne should replace his alternate win condition (opalescence) which is WAY meaner. I hope he doesnt show up. The combination of quick development of mana, combined with a lot of card advantage and a ton of permanents makes this deck a tough customer.

Anybody have any insight on the Enchantress matchup?

Well there is Rule of Law that slows their "combo" plan. Or Sphere of Resistance slows them down a lot too.

[bowvamp]

I like the idea of a green splash. It would give extra life to Horizon Canopy, and would be an excuse for me to finally test that new K. Grip-wannabe that draws you a card. I might try it.

What would the mana base look like?
Would we have to cut some of the staple colorless lands?
I am intrigued.

[scrow213]

I like the idea of a green splash. It would give extra life to Horizon Canopy, and would be an excuse for me to finally test that new K. Grip-wannabe that draws you a card. I might try it.

What would the mana base look like?
Would we have to cut some of the staple colorless lands?
I am intrigued.

This is my current manabase (plus Moxen)

3x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Plains
3x Flagstones of Trokair
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
2x Savannah
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Kor Haven

Flagstones can fetch the Savannahs as well.

[f|i[p]]

@Dirtyoldguy366

I don't have much insights vs enchantress, I just know that its a really bad match up. I know they run more permanents than we do.. If your really afraid of enchantress. Try running a dedicated sideboard for them, Maybe tempest of light or something of the likes.

aggro loam is the same way, a bad matchup, dont know what to board for them, maybe s.fields, needles, chalice @ 2 that hits burning wish, loam,DD. but it will not change the fact that they would bring K. grips, and artifact hate against you as well. A quick lock might help alot to be able to lock them down.Graveyard hate might help as well...

[scrow213]

So I keep getting rolled by Faerie Stompy now. I boarded in Chokes and Grips (for Jitte and whatnot). He just dropped a Glen Elendra and beat me down. I gripped his Jitte and he played another. He dropped SoFI also. I couldn't drop geddon, cause he had blue mana for Glen Elendra... Thoughts?

[Skeggi]

Thoughts?
Faerie Stompy doesn't suffer from Trinisphere or Chalices, in fact, they run these themselves. All Tomb-based aggro are pretty hard this way, but Faerie Stompy is harder than Dragon Stompy (which has Moon effects). Faeries Stompy has Back to Basics, they also have counter back-up. They use Trinket Mage to get a Relic of Progenitus to kill your graveyard or they get an Engineered Explosives@0 and kill your Moxen (and their own, but sometimes they don't really care about that).

Basically: this match is a very tough match-up for Armageddon Stax. I'm not really sure what works against them. I've tried Oblivion Rings, they are nice, but often not enough. Humility is pretty cool, but it has bad synergy with your Maguses and Angels if you run them. Most important thing is, Chalices and Trinispheres are dead cards. These will simply have to go. Your Moxen are also less attractive to play. If you pack Powder Kegs in your sideboard, run them, it could kill their Moxen and Seat of the Synod if they run them. Also pretty nice @3: kills most creatures and the equipment. If you have Wrath of God in your sideboard, get them.

[Dirtyoldguy366]

;322840']@Dirtyoldguy366

I don't have much insights vs enchantress, I just know that its a really bad match up. I know they run more permanents than we do.. If your really afraid of enchantress. Try running a dedicated sideboard for them, Maybe tempest of light or something of the likes.

aggro loam is the same way, a bad matchup, dont know what to board for them, maybe s.fields, needles, chalice @ 2 that hits burning wish, loam,DD. but it will not change the fact that they would bring K. grips, and artifact hate against you as well. A quick lock might help alot to be able to lock them down.Graveyard hate might help as well...

I've been thinking something along the lines of Tempest of Light also. I've been testing Aura of Silence and it just acts like a speedbump to them just like trinisphere and chalice and they usually oblivion ring/seal it before you can use it against their kill cards. Mass enchantment removal is probably the way to go here. I'm really hoping that guy doesnt show up or brings something janky but i might devote a few sideboard slots to it just in case.

As for loam what kind of graveyard hate can we use that is good against them? I know this player has a tendency to board in chalice and set them to 0 game 2 to avoid Tormod's Crypt. Hits my moxen too but i often board them out - this might be the wrong call though if we're going for a fast lock. What other graveyard hate is worth playing against them. Morningtide? Wheel of Sun and Moon?

[Skeggi]

Againt Enchantress I find Aura of Silence, Oblivion Ring and Humility very effective. Go after their Enchatress effects.

Against Aggro Loam I find Chalice@2 very effective. It stops their engine, their goyfs, Dark Confidant. Humility and/or Moat are also pretty cool.

[f|i[p]]

For a good surprise factor, morning tide would be great, since most people would assume your running crypt or relic. But you also must remember that they can cycle in response to your casting of morning tide.. You just have to time it right. Chalice @ 2 is still one of the best answers.

Im playing a weird version of loam now, and I have noticed that even a trinisphere would hurt simply because you always have to cast loam and constantly cylcle, making it quite taxing for their mana base. But it doesn't change the fact that they have gigantic creatures that could easily kill magus, and a well diverse wish board...

[Joe_C]

Im trying to keep my list mono white, the green splash seems tempting, but aside from buying duals, the mild weakening of our manabase for no maindeck cards seem a little off to me. This is my board, which I would love opinions on since it seems shitty when I look at it:

4 Exalted Angel
1 Ghostly Prison(3 Main)
1 Oblivion Ring(3 main)
1 Rule of Law(good against dreadstill if noone had noticed:wink: )
2 Defense Grid( questionable? this has sealed me up games against control)
3 Aura of Silence (meh, its good, against the mirror, but.. who plays that?)
3 Runed Halo

[scrow213]

Im trying to keep my list mono white, the green splash seems tempting, but aside from buying duals, the mild weakening of our manabase for no maindeck cards seem a little off to me. This is my board, which I would love opinions on since it seems shitty when I look at it:

4 Exalted Angel
1 Ghostly Prison(3 Main)
1 Oblivion Ring(3 main)
1 Rule of Law(good against dreadstill if noone had noticed:wink: )
2 Defense Grid( questionable? this has sealed me up games against control)
3 Aura of Silence (meh, its good, against the mirror, but.. who plays that?)
3 Runed Halo

I personally don't play Angels. As for Rule of Law, it's good against Dreadstill and Storm, but only 1? Seems random. Aura of Silence I also like, but the double white can be tough to pull fast enough to matter. Same issue with Runed Halo.

As for the green splash, I don't see that it really weakens the manabase. I mean, we swap white sources for green/white duals, so we don't lose anything in terms of white mana. And if you mean Wasteland, I think the Tombs and Cities are better Wasteland targets anyway. I think Choke is too good to not run, and Krosan Grip is great against a lot of decks. From Dreadnought to EE or Deed, and hitting equipment, etc. I love the card and think it's too versatile not to play. I just put in 2 Temple Garden until I can pick up Savannah. Flagstones puts it into play tapped anyway.

[Joe_C]

I may try the green splash out for a little while to see how I like it. I agree that grips and choke are both great cards. I will give your SB a shot Scrow for week or so. Needle is huge card as well, i just never liked running them in tandem with chalices.

[f|i[p]]

Well, I don't understand why a splash of green weakens your mana base, a lot of people say that a splash of any color would weaken it. I actually don't think so. Nobody seems to look at other decks, that runs 3 basic lands, of diff colors as well. Yet they still manage. Having Mox D and quite a lot of basics is enough for mana fixing and even if we ran 4 savanah's I don't think People will actually lock us out of basic lands. If I were the opponent I would actually want to wasteland 2 mana lands early on instead of savannah. I think splashing green is worth it since it shores up a lot of problems for stax, like deed ,blue based control decks and dreadnaught.

My sideboard with a green splash

3 exalted angel
2 O rings
2 Wrath of god --extra answers to gobs and aggro
4 K grips
4 chokes -- one sideed armageddon for blue based decks.

[Joe_C]

changed SB for mono white. feels pretty solid at the moment:

3 exalted angel
3 aura of silence
3 defense grid
2 ensnaring bridge
1 oblivion ring
3 runed halo

[Patrick]

Here's a mini report from a 25 person 20 proxy Tournament at RIW Hobbies yesterday:

My List

4 Magus

3 Prison
1 Moat

4 Mox
4 Crucible
4 Chalice
4 Trinisphere
3 Stack

3 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
1 Ravages of War Proxy

5 Plains
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones
2 Kor Haven
2 Mishra's Factory

Sideboard

3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Runed Halo
3 Suppression Field
3 Choke
3 Krosan Grip


My Matches:

Round 1 - My friend Tony with Eva Green:

I lose. I lose again. He wins the roll and opens on Ritual/ Duress Hymn. Then I can't draw answers to the Hippie that's taking my cards away.

Game 2 I mulligan into a Sphere of Resistance on turn 1 but I don't draw the right resources to play the Trinisphere in my hand. I believe it was City for the Sphere and no Tomb/City for the sphere on turn 2. Wombstalker stalks my womb.

Round 2 - BYE

I walk around and see a lot of Landstill, Aluren, 2 Aggro Loam, 2 Merfolk, 1 Goblins, 1 Burn and some other stuff. More diverse than last time, but still a lot of Islands.

Round 3 - Juan with R/B Goblins

I win. I win again. My game 1 hand features such all stars as Prison, Magus, Armageddon. Lackey gets in, he drops a warchief. I get attacked to somewhere around 6 before I start taking the Chief seriously, so Factory shuts the game down. Then I play Magus followed by Ravages and he scoops.

Game 2 pretty much happens the same way, but I have a Krosan Grip in my hand all game and he drops Blood Moon. I already have a lot of the lock down and this Moon isn't hurting me, but AEther Vial is already dead and I want to play this Grip. He comments how I "came prepared" and scoops a few turns later.

Round 4 - Brian DeMars with U/W Control

Game 1 I see Glen Elendra Archmage and get a little concerned. He taps out to play this on turn 4 and I consider playing Armageddon while I can, but I decide to wait for a 5th or 6th land. I play Magus on my turn. He lets the Archmage die and persist on upkeep, then taps out again to play a second Archmage. I resolve the Geddon, then keep resolving Geddons as I bait counters with Smokestack and Trinisphere. We move to game 2.

I remember playing an Early Magus when he has Archmage down and attacking because it died or something. Maybe he didn't have a Mage. He goes to 4 and I play Factory and pass. He drops Moat. Hey, only I can play Moat. I shrug and get sad for not playing Grip this game. He plays a second Moat, Oblivion Ring is out of the question now. I try to draw Stack, Armageddon and 2 things to bait counters with. Instead I drew sub-optimal cards and waited forever. He plays Kataki, War's Wage and I get nervous, I have Mox, Crucible, and Trinisphere in play. Also the same Magus has been sitting around on his ass because he can't swim. Then one turn I untap and draw a card. Magus, Trinisphere, Crucible and Mox diamond all go to my graveyard. This might be karma for all the people who drew a card and had their creatures die against me. I turn to my buddy Kurt, mumble "I really fucked that up" and shuffle for game 3.

I mulligan to 5 with Factory and City as my lands. Turn 2 Crucible gets Forced, Turn 3 Crucible sticks and he plays back to basics. I don't draw any land. I think I had Stack, Armageddon and Prison in my hand. A Kataki hits play and I offer the concession.

Round 5 - My friend Ghandi with Aggro Loam.

Ghandi is 3-1, I am 2-1. I give him the game because I'm doubtful of my chances at 3-1 into top 8. Later, I find out a 9 point made it. I didn't see tiebreakers, didn't care. Ghandi plays against Team America and loses hard. I sit watching, realizing I'd pummel this guy. Then I pay attention to the side event where more interesting things are happening.


Props:

People, for showing up.

Me, Chris Walton and Ghandi Jagasia for designing a deck only Paul Mastriano could defeat in the side event.

RIW, for hosting and being extremely gracious on the prize split.

Humungo-uber props to Jimmy McCarthy, for helping my friend Chris out with the split.

Slops:

People, for showing up an hour and a half late.

Brian DeMars, for losing his head in the top 8. If you're reading Brian, he was holding Decree the entire game.

Tony, for playing against me round 1 of every tournament we play in, and for playing Eva Green this time.

Me, for tossing the game 2 of round 4 out the window.


That's it until next weekend for Grand Prix: Chicago. I'll see you all there!

P.S. Somewhere, a group of people and I are going to be playtesting. We'll have a lot of decks built and proxied that anyone kind to us and use. We'll most likely be at the convention center, but if it's closed for some reason Friday night we'll end up in a couple hotel rooms. Anyone interested can contact me on this website.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

;323449']Well, I don't understand why a splash of green weakens your mana base, a lot of people say that a splash of any color would weaken it. I actually don't think so. Nobody seems to look at other decks, that runs 3 basic lands, of diff colors as well. Yet they still manage. Having Mox D and quite a lot of basics is enough for mana fixing and even if we ran 4 savanah's I don't think People will actually lock us out of basic lands. If I were the opponent I would actually want to 2 mana lands early on instead of savannah. I think splashing green is worth it since it shores up a lot of problems for stax, like deed ,blue based control decks and dreadnaught.


Most mono whit lists run about 7 plains.
So if you want to splash a color you give in 4 duals, but 4 duals are to few for a splash and i never would go under 3 basic plains...

So what is your manabase?

[scrow213]

Most mono whit lists run about 7 plains.
So if you want to splash a color you give in 4 duals, but 4 duals are to few for a splash and i never would go under 3 basic plains...

So what is your manabase?

Well you have 4 duals and 4 Moxen. And Horizon Canopy, if you play it. Here is my mana base:

4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Plains
2x Savannah
2x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Kor Haven
2x Horizon Canopy

That gives me 8 sources of :g: when you only need to draw one. Seems pretty reliable to me.

[Mordel]

Reliability is not the issue.

More vulnerable to wastelocks and non basic fucking is.

[Patrick]

Reliability is not the issue.

More vulnerable to wastelocks and non basic fucking is.

I do admit that the entire day I was worried that the Savannahs in my deck were going to screw me out of a win somehow. The situation never came up, and it rarely does in testing, but I've switched to 1 Savannah. I cut the Canopy, so with 5 green sources maindeck I feel comfortable. In fact, every time I cast a green spell yesterday I used a Mox Diamond.

[f|i[p]]

Wow... I read my post.. and it missed a word...

I was actually trying to say that.. if I were the opponent and I had a wasteland, I would rather waste the 2 mana lands, rather than a savannah.We rely on 2 mana lands more than a savanah early on.

Which deck runs waste locks now a days? loam? stax.. only a few decks run it...
Mox D. shores up a lot of the decks color problems.. Non basic hate like back to basics and blood moon can be fixed by K. grip.

As for my mana base

4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
3 plains
3 savannah
3 flagstones
4 wasteland
2 mishras factory
1 horizon canopy
1 kor haven

I would still have to test this however... I don't like having more than 24 lands, in my deck as I have the tendency to draw lands a lot. If I find the mana base clunky, mishra is the first one thats going to get cut more or less.

[_erbs_]

Its been long since i've played stax but, after i faced against it in our local tourny i was wondering what if mishra's factory was changed to rishadan port giving the deck more mana denial tricks.

In the time i've been using geddon stax mishra's main role was:
1. win condition
2. recurring blocker

The green splash looks promising, maybe the green splash could add sylvan library + uba mask combo giving the deck an excellent draw engine plus removing threats that could be used by your opponent later on.

[Skeggi]

Fred Bear suggested green splash for, among other, Sylvan Library. It didn't work. Sylvan Library that is.

[Patrick]

Grand Prix: Chicago

I've spent the last 10 or so months learning this deck in and out, evaluating cards and playtesting against every conceivable matchup. Here's the story about how none of that matters:


We arrived in Shaumburg Friday afternoon and I spend a good deal of time walking around looking at vendor prices, watching people play and enjoying being out of the car after 4.5 hours. The cards people were breaking balls on were:

Stifle
Dreadnought
Fetchlands
Engineered Explosives
Grindstone
Underground Sea
Tundra
Tarmogoyf

.... damn. Whatever. I look for any last minute foil cards and find a Chalice at 20. By the end of the night the metagame looks healthy, I see Goblins, Threshold, Landstill, all the normal stuff. Also, Merfolk. I didn't expect this much fish people, mostly because the deck isn't as powerful as goblins and can't control the game as well Threshold. I had heard it's a DTB, I guess that's correct now. I think about it for a few seconds and decide I have a good Mer matchup. We go back to the hotel and I can't fall asleep.

The next morning at the player meeting, we have a 1,260 players. Wow. Fucking wow. I feel immediate pity for the logistics staff and walk over to find my pairings. Table 58. I shuffle this up:

Armageddon Stax:

Patrick Becerra, with much help from friends at MTGTheSource.com

4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War

4 Magus of the Tabernacle

4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack

3 Oblivion Ring
3 Ghostly Prison
1 Moat

6 Plains
1 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Kor Haven
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Flagstones of Trokair

Sideboard:

3 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Runed Halo
3 Suppression Field


Round 1: George with Merfolk
0-2

We spend some time shuffling up and he wins the first roll of the day (I continue on to lose every roll today). My hand is a bunch of lands with Kor Haven and Armageddon. He opens with Island, go. I play some lands and he starts playing fish people. My draws are some lands, 2 Crucible and an Oblivion Ring. Wake Thrasher gets up in my business, and the Oblivion Ring gets Stifled. I see zero match relevant cards. Let's go to game 2 George.

+ 3 Choke, +3 Suppression Field
- I don't remember what I took out, probably Smokestack.

I open on land, go. He plays a Vial. I play Chalice at 2 (nuking his hand, I find this out after the match.) I play a Choke turn 3 with mana open and he plays another Vial. He has Wasteland and Mutavault, so Choke isn't doing anything. Again I see no cards to deal with Aggro and lose to Wake Thrasher. Pity.

Round 2: Jason with Dreadstill
1-2

I keep a hand with good cards. He plays an early Dreadnought and we move along.

+3 Krosan Grip, +3 Runed Halo
- some stuff

I play a turn 1 Prison and it resolves. Trinket Mage comes down and get's the Nought (side note: A friend of mine compared Phyrexian Dreadnought to B.F.M. from Unglued. They both take 2 cards to get into play, and they're both overcosted. I just think this analogy needs to be out there). I play something and he attacks me to 6. I drop Armageddon and ask "Does this resolve?". It does. I rebuild and Grip the Nought later. We go to game 3. I remember having a bunch of good cards and Trinket Mage killing me. Although I'm not describing the match well, it was the most fun I had in the main event.

Round 3: Matthew with Landstill
1-1-1

Game 1 he's slow and I resolve Crucible, Armageddon then Wastelock him. We move to game 2.

In: Grip, Choke, maybe Field
Out: Stack, Magus

We both do nothing for a while, I make a Trinisphere and it sticks. Later, he plays Bitterblossom. What? He boarded in Bitterblossom? This game literally takes forever. I have Ghostly Prison and his lands locked down. He's attacking with 1 token per turn. I drop Magus and they all die, save for 1. I needed to hit Armageddon to not die, but that didn't happen. This game took about 30 minutes.

Game 3: I play Moat early. I have a grip in my hand. We're at turn 10 with about 4 minutes left. I ask him if he'd like to draw, and he tells me "if everything goes just right I can win". I play Armageddon as recklessly as I can. It resolves. I ask for a draw again, and he agrees.

The judge comes over to verify results and is confused that we've drawn with 3 minutes left. My opponent tells the judge we played 3 games, drew the third and he has to pee. The judge goes away.

Round 4: Joe with Quinn the Eskimo
2-1

Game 1 he grinds me out turn 4, I'm irritated. Grindstone is the stupidest combo ever.

In: Grip, Halo, Field
Out: Magus, 1 Factory, some stuff.

Games 2 and 3 Chalice and Trinisphere buy enough time for me to set up Halo, Field and have Grips in my hand. He's never really in these games, though his record might have had something to do with that.

Despite winning and trying to earn points I drop and pick my girlfriend up from the hotel. We spend the rest of the day building Landstill and playing EDH 2HG. Though my performance in the main event was piss-poor I had a blast all weekend!

Post tournament thoughts:

I feel the turning point here was drawing poorly against Merfolk. I saw a lot of good matches at the high tables and bad matches at the low tables. I evaluated my play all day and I can't remember times when I made mistakes. I stand by my choice that Stax was a great deck to bring. A friend of mine played the Dutch build with Boil and Ajani Vengeant in the board. He played 4 good matches in a row and lost the next 3.

After a few weeks of use, I say the green splash is well worth it. Choke will blindside a lot of people and Krosan Grip helps in a lot of bad matches. I forget this a lot, but Krosan Grip can't be countered. The big problems it solves are Dreadnoughts, Crucibles in Landstill, Sensei's Top, Deed, Explosives, Serenity, whatever. It took Aura of Silence's spot in my board.

This is the last event I'm playing Geddon Stax in. It's been fun, but I need to learn how to play blue.

[Misplayer]

Patrick, nice write up and nice list. I'm going to have to pick up a Savannah and work that green splash. It seems you've sufferred from Stax's horrible weakness: inconsistency.

On a related note, yesterday I went to a local 17 player tournament. A friend was there without a deck and I let him use Stax as I was playing 4c Thresh and was using all my other relevant cards. He's an aggro player so I gave him some pointers before the tournament. He asked me what his bad matchups were and I told him almost none, and the inconsistency of the deck will cost him more games than bad matchups. Naturally, he cruises to 4-0-1 (including a win against Merfolk) in the swiss and wins the whole thing while I miss top 4 by losing in the last round.

The power level of Stax is insane - a god draw for Stax should beat almost anything - but you sacrifice consistency. Such is the nature of the deck.

[Patrick]

Patrick, nice write up and nice list. I'm going to have to pick up a Savannah and work that green splash. It seems you've sufferred from Stax's horrible weakness: inconsistency.

On a related note, yesterday I went to a local 17 player tournament. A friend was there without a deck and I let him use Stax as I was playing 4c Thresh and was using all my other relevant cards. He's an aggro player so I gave him some pointers before the tournament. He asked me what his bad matchups were and I told him almost none, and the inconsistency of the deck will cost him more games than bad matchups. Naturally, he cruises to 4-0-1 (including a win against Merfolk) in the swiss and wins the whole thing while I miss top 4 by losing in the last round.

The power level of Stax is insane - a god draw for Stax should beat almost anything - but you sacrifice consistency. Such is the nature of the deck.

This is odd, because I play Stax every week and I'd hardly say the deck is inconsistent. The closest thing I would say is you don't know which lock pieces you'll draw and sometimes you don't draw the right ones.

[Viscosity]

This is odd, because I play Stax every week and I'd hardly say the deck is inconsistent. The closest thing I would say is you don't know which lock pieces you'll draw and sometimes you don't draw the right ones.

So, you're saying it's inconsistent.... :rolleyes:

[Viscosity]

After attending the GP, I have only one comment about stax in general...

"Shattering Spree, lawl"

[Patrick]

So, you're saying it's inconsistent.... :rolleyes:

I suppose I wrote that poorly.

What I was trying to say is all of the cards in Stax are good on their own, and most of them work together with most other ones to create a soft/hard lock that wins the game, or buys enough time to win the game. There are times when the pieces you draw don't interact well enough with each other to affect your opponent to a point when they can't operate efficiently. I'd say 1 in 12-15 games I draw cards where I just can't get something going, no matter how I play it. These numbers seem reasonable.

[Dakkon12]

I've read through this thread and I don't think it has been mentioned.

Humility and Mobilization is an interesting combo for a Stax (or white control) deck.

Mobilization acts as a win condition, stax feeder, and a Moat (while humility is out atleast).

I have not really tested it yet as I find suppression field really really good in the current format (suppression field/mobility is not a good combo).

Is this a viable alternative? If not why? If so what would be some other lock pieces that would complement Humility/Mobilization?

[scrow213]

What do you take out to fit Mobilization? The list is already tight as it is.

[Misplayer]

I think Elspeth is strictly superior to Mobilization despite the double-white mana cost. I'm thinking about going -4 ORing, -1 Mishra's Factory, +2 Elspeth, +2 Humility, +1 Plains. We'll see how that works out.