[Deck] Armageddon Stax

[Dakkon12]

Why is elspeth strictly a superior card?

Mobilization can't be attacked, is cheaper (both $$ wise and mana cost), and with the amount of mana stax can generate can put out more than 1 token per turn.

If you're running Moat, then I agree. The ability to make the tokens fly makes elspeth better.

But I am talking about replacing Moat with Mobilization and having an anti-creature core as such:

3-4 humility
3 mobilization
4 ghostly prison

With this set up the deck can play as a hybrid dutch/armageddon build in a way.

I see it as being a....less expensive way to abuse humility in a format where humility is awesome.

[Misplayer]

Elspeth, despite the initial mana cost of an additional white, is much cheaper from a mana cost perspective. Mobilization requires 2W per turn to be effective, and I would almost always rather be playing a lock piece with that mana. In my experiences, having a surplus of 2W per turn is pretty rare, let along 4WW.

While Elspeth can be attacked, she also protects herself. Perhaps Elspeth’s greatest asset is her ability to end the game in 5 turns with evasion. This is HUGE for Stax, as a lack of a finisher has been an issue for the deck and has caused some to run non-synergistic cards like Exalted Angel. Elspeth is decently synergistic with the deck and becomes even more so with Humility.

If you’re looking for a blocker, Magus of the Tabernacle is your man, and he also synergizes with the deck better than mobilization. I realize that Magus + Humility <> a combo, but they’re both 4cc answers to keeping your opponents’ Goyf at bay, which is something you obviously need to be able to do.

I think Mobilization is viable, and would undoubtedly shine when you’re stuck in topdeck mode and you’re ripping land, but I don’t know if I’d be willing to weaken the ability of the deck to lock your opponent down in most situations just to give yourself an out in a losing situation.

I also have to question it as a replacement for Moat (aside – maybe this should be in the Dutch Stax thread?). If you’re staring down a lethal army of Goblins/Merfolk/Elves, you can drop a Moat and laugh. If that Moat is a Mobilization, you can drop it and then pick it back up again with the rest of your cards because you just lost. If you’re looking for non-Moat answers to swarm-aggro, Ghostly Prison + Magus of the Tabernacle are probably your best bet.

Lastly, Humility is nutty on its own, Moat just turns it into a hard-lock (disenchant effects aside). I don’t play the Dutch variant but I’d imagine that having both in play is often unnecessary. The moral is: you don’t need to run Moat to abuse Humility. Humility is abusive by nature; just don’t rely on it so much that you lose to a well-timed Grip.

EDIT: 100th Post. Sweet.

[Dakkon12]

Alright, I understand now that the 2w a turn to make 1 soldier token with mobilization is unwieldy.

Why is Exalted Angel non-synergistic with the deck though? She makes stax more aggressive , while offsetting the damage from ancient tomb. shes also a permanent that's easily cast, and is not affected by your own lock pieces.

[Skeggi]

Lastly, Humility is nutty on its own, Moat just turns it into a hard-lock (disenchant effects aside). I don’t play the Dutch variant but I’d imagine that having both in play is often unnecessary. The moral is: you don’t need to run Moat to abuse Humility. Humility is abusive by nature; just don’t rely on it so much that you lose to a well-timed Grip.


Humility is often a stronger card than Moat, because it stops CiTP effects and slows down nasty stuff like Tombstalkers and makes Trygon Predators near worthless. But you still take some hits, so a Moat is a welcome guest at the party.

[keidot]

Why is Exalted Angel non-synergistic with the deck though? She makes stax more aggressive , while offsetting the damage from ancient tomb. shes also a permanent that's easily cast, and is not affected by your own lock pieces.

Angel lacks synergy for a very simple reason: it's a big dork. Yes, I'm aware that it morphs, flies, has lifelink, can end the game in 5 turns and has a fairly big butt but how does it help your lock? Angel can win you games you weren't supposed to win sometimes but it's only function is large "Must Kill" creature. In comparison to Dutch Stax's choice of Elspeth as the win con, it's not nearly as flexible. However, this isn't a failing of Geddon Stax or a boon unto Dutch Stax. Exalted Angel is simply the best creature printed for the spot given how the deck is constructed. Even if Dutch Stax wanted to run Angel, the choice would be highly criticized due to the main deck Humilities we run.

Simply stated: Angel is good but tends to be the card cut first to make space for other lock cards because Stax doesn't want to win fast. Stax instead wants to lock the game down and win at its own leisurely pace, something Angel flies in the face of thematically.

[gamegeek2]

Moat is very strong. One of the few answers to Progenitus out there. I just don't understand not running Moat while Natural Order is seeing play.

[The Wes]

Humility also dominates progenitus. Not to mention the normal armageddon/ghostly/tabernacle plan.

[Skeggi]

Humility also dominates Magus of the Tabernacle. Poor guy.

[gamegeek2]

Moat actually shuts him down. Humility makes us deal with 1/1s...what if they can pay for Prison?

[The Wes]

You has said that moat was one of the few answers to Progenitus out there. I was just giving a couple of other answers to it the deck uses. What if they pay for ghostly you ask? What if they grip moat? No matter what there are outs. I was also refering to prison with armageddon and/or tabernacle effects. Not say they are the best options, but just that they were other options to deal with that guy.

On a side note, is he really that common? Are decks with him doing that well? I'm not asking this to be a jerk or to make a point, I am actually curious. I haven't noticed him much recently in the limited amount of tourneys I've read about or mws games I've played.

And to Skeggi: Who plays with Magus? :) I prefer humility and real tabernacles. We'll see how they work in the tourney.

[muodoka]

i started playing this build a few weeks ago

4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War

4 Magus of the Tabernacle

4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack

3 Oblivion Ring
3 Ghostly Prison
1 Moat

6 Plains
1 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Kor Haven
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Flagstones of Trokair

Sideboard:

3 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Runed Halo
3 Suppression Field




i got it from this thread on page 75, but anyway this seems to be working fine with me. i seem to have no problem with goblins or most blue decks. the only match up i really a issue with is mono black. if they can duress/thoughtsieze my opening hand if they go first and take my early stall piece i usually can seem to recover from a turn 2 hippie either. and most of my wins come from the other person giving up.

the only things this deck lacks is a really fast way to end the game, but thats not how this deck is played, its a slow punishing path for your opponent... most dont make it, those who do have either played agaisnt STAX before or they were playing a build i was unfamiliar with or had such a twist on it i couldnt defend properly before it was too late... and the second is it has no way to recover from the tombs hurting you... i wouldlike to try and fix this WITHOUT exalted angel, any suggestions... ??

i do plan on investing in a tabernalce land so i can test it around... mainly ill replace a wasteland for it.

[The Wes]

Elspeth would speed you up a bit, her second ability to make your factories fly speeds you up a lot.

[Skeggi]

And to Skeggi: Who plays with Magus? :) I prefer humility and real tabernacles. We'll see how they work in the tourney.

I did, before I switched to Dutch Stax. The best possible Armageddon Stax list, in my eyes, runs 4 Maguses and no Tabernacle Lands, also 6 Geddon effects, no Angels. But it's still weak compared to Dutch Stax in my experience.

@Muodoka: I wouldn't run 2 Kor Havens, in that case, run a Kor Haven and a Maze of Ith.

[Patrick]

And to Skeggi: Who plays with Magus? :) I prefer humility and real tabernacles. We'll see how they work in the tourney.

I'm not Skeggi, but I play 4 Magus. He's amazing. He doesn't take up a land spot that doesn't produce mana, he blocks a creature that can attack (like Mongoose or Bob) and he's not legendary or wasteland-able.

[The Wes]

I've just had better luck since switching out my Maguses for humilities and tabernacle lands(though I always ran the lands also). The major problem decks I was starting to run into were survival, mono blue control, and dreadnaught type decks. The humilities were just more helpeful than maguses often in these matchups. A + for the taby lands is still that its much easier to drop an armageddon, followed up by a tabernacle. I've got Elspeths and factories for my blocking. I'm not saying Magus is bad, if not for my need for humilities, I'd still be running 3 magus and 2 tabernacles. Its just that I can't really find a place for them right now. Since I started playing Armageddon Stax back in the winter of '06 I've never liked when I've removed my tablernacle lands from a list.

[Skeggi]

That basically sounds like Dutch Stax with Tabernacles, which is pretty cool :smile:.

[Misplayer]

I played this list to a 4-1 (top 4 split) finish at a local 20+ player event:

4 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

2 Humility
3 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Trinisphere
4 Mox Diamond

4 Armageddon

4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
7 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kor Haven

Sideboard:
3 Aura of Silence
3 Runed Halo
3 CoP: Red
2 Defense Grid
2 Suppression Field
2 Oblivion Ring

Matchups: Ichorid (2-0), Affinity (2-0), The Rock (1-2), NLU (2-0), Survival (2-1)

The deck was a beast all day, and it really owns the metagame (there were 4 Ichorid lists, 2+ Burn, Belcher, assorted vial-aggro strategies and only a couple blue decks).

Humility and Elspeth were definitely awesome. I only missed Oblivion Ring in the Rock matchup, although I still want to pick up a Savannah and get that G splash in there for Grip. I wanted Pithing Needle against Deed badly, as my opponent had 6 lands and my Suppression Field just wept. However, I was able to lock Survival with Suppresion Field + Trinisphere + Armageddon. I was able to Armageddon with double Magus because of Humility. While Humility certainly make Magus an overcosted 1/1 beater, it simply crushes Survival.

I think I'm going to keep the maindeck the same, it was great. The sideboard was so-so. I really wanted 4 Oblivion Rings to bring in against decks where they had problem enchantments and problem creatures (Survival & Rock). Runed Halo and CoP: Red didn't see much play but I think that's because the maindeck is so good in many matchups.

I didn't miss extra Factories and I had WW when I needed it. 4 Flagstones never hurt and I wouldn't change them. Defense Grid didn't come in against NLU because I wanted O-Rings/Suppression Field more. I could probably cut Defense Grid for yesterday's meta.

I would rework the SB maybe something like:
2 Aura of Silence
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Runed Halo
2 Pithing Needle
2 Suppression Field
2 CoP: Red

EDIT: I don't know if Horizon Canopy is worth a spot. Kor Haven is for sure, Horizon Canopy I'm not sold on.

[fearphage]

I think the strength of the deck is making your opponent make hard choices. Between 3sphere, Ghostly Prison/Windborn Muse, Tabernacle (magus and land form), you give your opponent the decisions to play spells, attack or keep creatures in play. In some cases, I've seen people add Suppression Field to the mix to add more choices. Smokestack makes them decide which permanents are more important to them. My goal is generally to spread them (too) thin and mop up with Smokestack/Armageddon. In addition to being difficult to pilot, it is taxing to play against. There's lots of room for people to make mistakes on both sides of the table. We should capitalize on that.

One strength (aside from financial investment) that Tabernacle effects have is the ability to remove creatures permanently when combined with the decks other effects. This is valuable sometimes even when you don't have Crucible to hold on to your guys. Some decks like goblins can win without attacking if left unchecked. Don't get me wrong. Moat is a fantastic card, but I still value that Ghostly Prison/Windborn Muse takes resources from the opponent if they require red zone usage.

I still have Armageddon Stax constructed but I don't play it is much. I haven't played it in a tournament in ages, but I run 4 Ghostly Prison, 3 Windborn muse, and 2 Magus of the Tabernacle as aggro (read: goblins) were huge when I did play it. Those 5 creatures are my win cons that are also lock pieces. I also played 3-4 factories. Elspeth and Mobilization are good but they don't immediately affect the board. Creating fodder for smokestack is great but not anything to instill fear across the table. With generally no drawing power, every card needs to affect the board. In a pissing contest, Elspeth is the better decision though.

[The Wes]

Ok, just a quick update! So, in the Goyfless tourney I'm currently in the top 8 playing Stax! Good times. Here is the list I'm running:

//Lands
5 Plains
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Savannah

//Spells
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of the Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon
3 Smokestack
3 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

//Sideboard
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Suppression Field
3 Pithing Needle
4 Choke
4 Krosan Grip

It's been working out rather well for me most games. The humilities main are a nice surprize, and so are the chokes and grips out of the sb. I was initially doubting the 2 tabernacles main but so far they've been nothing but good to me. Armageddon into tabernacle makes me smile. Well, my first match (and maybe last) in the top 8 is against Pinder with Slivers! Guess its time to think on sb'ing strategies...

[Skeggi]

Yeah, I've been following that and I saw you doing well. I figured you were playing Stax. Good going :)

That list looks pretty solid. Do you find 2 Elspeths to be enough or would you rather cram in a third somewhere?

[ykpon]

If you run Elspeth and Humility, then why not to play Moat over Prisons?

[The Wes]

I've rarely found 2 Elsepths to not be enough. Usually in a game where I'm desperately searching and waiting for one I'm already loosing. I could see it being nice to have one more, but am not sure where I'd really fit it. If I was running Moat I'd definately go -4 ghostly, +3 Moat +1 Elspeth for starters.

On the subject of Moat. With only running 2 city of traitors my deck is not quite as explosive as some version. This makes it a little harder to hit 4 mana turn 1 or 2. Being able to drop the ghostly a turn sooner has helped. Also, in many situations I've found it advantageous to allow the opponent to use up mana to attack instead of playing their spells. Playing only 2 Elspeth's doesn't allow me to have one consistently in play to give factories flying. The extra white mana in moat was sometimes a problem in my current configuration, running 2 tabernacles main, and probably would have required a change in mana base. Also, I don't own any Moats, and wanted to only play with cards I actually owned.

[Skeggi]

Hasn't the fact that Ghostly Prison doesn't protect Elspeth been a problem?

[The Wes]

Shh! Don't tell! Actually, with only 2 it really hasn't, its more of a finisher when I've got em locked down, or just a chump blocker for a while.

[Phantom]

I have kind of a strange question. I am not a Stax player, but am looking for advice. Basically, my question is, if plains produced any color of mana (and pretend for a sec that you couldn't run Flagstones of Trokair) what non white cards would you run (and what would you cut to run them)?

[ykpon]

I have kind of a strange question. I am not a Stax player, but am looking for advice. Basically, my question is, if plains produced any color of mana (and pretend for a sec that you couldn't run Flagstones of Trokair) what non white cards would you run (and what would you cut to run them)?

in my opinion the best nonwhite stax cards are Tezzereth, Propaganda, Abyss, Nether Void. the weakest slots in traditional angel stax are angels/orings, dunno about dutch stax though

[The Wes]

Black, umm, Vindicate in place of o ring in an instant, and boy do I miss braids staxs now and again...

Blue, In the Eye of Chaos, not sure what in place of. Maybe just a sb card.

I'm not sure propaganda is needed with ghostly, 8 is a lot, and we already have access to windborn muse if we really need it.

[Skeggi]

if plains produced any color of mana what non white cards would you run (and what would you cut to run them)?
Engineered Explosives (perhaps even with Academy Ruins). Could cut different things like the 4th Smokestack, Oblivion Rings...

Nethervoid indeed also seems a strong choice for this deck, might want to cut a Trinisphere.

I have been considering stuff like Exploration, but I don't think it's a possibility with cmc1.

Garruk Wildspeaker could be strong in this deck.

Fact or Fiction, Thirst for Knowledge...

[MikeyFlowers]

I am interested in working a version of this deck which plays Exploration and opening up the board for a nice Green splash. I just got started on this project and haven't had the time to really test it much yet. So far, it seems good. I would appreciate your input, note that this idea has been visited before, this is just my take on it:

Lands
City of Traitors 4
Flagstones of Trokair 3
Horizon Canopy 4
Mishra's Factory 3
Plains 6
Savannah 1
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale 2
Wasteland 2

Artifact
Chalice of the Void 3
Cruicble of Worlds 4
Mox Diamond 4
Smokestack 2

Enchantments
Exploration 4
Humility 4
Moat 4
Oblivion Ring 3

Planeswalker
Elspeth, Knight Errant 3

Sorcery
Armageddon 2
Ravages of War 2

Sideboard
Chalice of the Void 1
Pithing Needle 2
Trinisphere 4
Choke 3
City of Solitude 3
Compost 2

So far my thoughts on the deck are that I would like to have more White sources and more 2 mana lands. My first instinct is to can the Mishra's Factories all together in exchange for say 2 Ancient Tomb and 1 Plains. That still may not be enough White sources for me though, I keep on finding myself getting set back by a turn due to not having enough White. Maybe I would rather lose the Factories and do 1 Ancient Tomb and 2 Plains.

Can anybody think of a land that will produce WW? Now that would be a nice spot.

Do I really want to lose the Factories though? My present feeling is... yes. Anybody else have some input on this, or have you tested it? Pros and Cons?

Another thing I would like to see would be another Armageddon effect. I really don't know where to squeeze it in though. I was thinking that I could drop another Chalice for it (with Exploration I really only use Chalice at 2 & 3 so seeing 2 in my opening hand or early is basically a dead card). I've been kicking around the idea of getting a Replenish in there, basically that would cut off the possibility of getting that fifth Armageddon effect though and on top of that it is probably a better board card. The Trinispheres in the board I don't know... I just don't have the experience with them but they seem like something everybody else runs, maybe I could lose one of them for a Replenish. Is a random replenish really going to be any good though? Who knows.

Please let me know what you think about my list. Like I said, I really want this deck to work out, it's really fun so far and lets me play some of my cool and rare cards and also adds an unexpected twist to the Stax game. I don't have a regular play group though and just don't have the time to get enough testing in to really figure it out yet. This thing is still in the very early stages of its life but I can tell alrady it is a direction I want to go. Any input is apprecated. Thanks Sourcers.

Also, if anybody lives in the Springfield, MA area and is looking for another player to playtest with I have eight decks right now just itching for opponents. I've got Stax, Dreadstill, Tempo Thresh, Eva Green, Dragon Stompy, Quinn, Progenitus Elves, and Spring Tide. Really I can bring a lot of fun to a local play group if there are any of you out there looking for people.

[Misplayer]

@Mikey:

Your list is pretty unlike most of those discussed here and in the Dutch Stax thread. The "heavy" G splash is very questionable for only Exploration and sideboard cards. How much is Exploration essential to your gameplan? Traditional Stax wins through the redunancy of synergistic lock pieces, not through hitting extra land drops. Sure, it's cute when you're recurring Horizon Canopy every turn or when you have Smokestack active, but is it necessary? I would say no. Active Smokestack + Crucible is plenty to take control of the board. Active Smokestack + 4 mana is plenty to take control of the board.

On Ancient Tomb: You need 4. The lifeloss is irrelevant when you're powering out turn 1-2 Trinisphere. Speaking of which, you also need 4 Trinisphere maindeck. Mink made top 8 at the GP playing a Tomb/Chalice deck largely because of his decision to maindeck 4 Trinisphere. Not only is it an early game Time Walk for 1-2 turns against most decks while you set up your lock, it's about the best protection you can run from Force of Will and Daze, both of which can destroy Stax.

'Geddon effects are less necessary when you're playing quad Humility/Moat. In Traditional Stax, 'geddon effects are HUGE because you have a mana-taxing gameplan (Ghostly Prison, Smokestack, Trinisphere, Magus of the Tabernacle). While still nice to really eff over your opponent when you have them squirming under Humility/Moat, you already have dominant board position in this situation.

If you insist on the G splash, I think Savannah>Horizon Canopy. In my estimation, the life loss is NOT worth cutesy card drawing tricks. I play 1 Horizon Canopy mostly to dig for a win-con when I have the game locked, but I'm also not running any G splash at the moment.

Lastly, if you want to trek out to Worcester, there's weekly Legacy on Wednesdays and Sundays and a decent amount of Sourcers play in those games semi-regularly.

[MikeyFlowers]

Yes, I anticipated the primary response would be something along the lines of "don't reinvent the wheel" and "don't try and fix something that isn't broken with something that isn't as good anyways". I'm looking to make a deck of my own though that plays out differently than everybody else's Stax build. I don't want to just copy the deck that everybody knows works and play it out according to the instructions found online. This may lead to a "bad deck" but I think that my list is solid enough to not just be labeled bad off the get go and I still plan to pursue it.

For now, I'm going to go ahead and drop the factories in exchange for either a Tomb and 2 plains or 2 plains and a Tomb, I'll need to test it out. I'm going to drop a Chalice in exchange for another Armageddon, but only to test it, it might end up not being something I want to do. I'm looking to design something for my own play style though and want to play out a new type of list.

We'll see what happens and time will tell, maybe in the end I'll just switch to tried and true Stax but without trying out my build I'll never know whether I like it or not.

I'm looking for some constructive criticism on my build and not just the classic Source tactic of "don't mess with the deck the way it's designed, it works that way and everybody should play it that way".

At any rate, I'm having fun messing with it so far. I haven't tested against Blue control or Thresh type decks which may prove to be a glarind weakness. We'll just have to see what happens as I get more games under my belt.

Edit: Yes, the Worcester group really is fun on Wednesday, the problem is though that I work over an hour away and have to hammer it at about 80 mph the whole way and even then just barely make it. What's this Saturday match you mentioned?

Edit again: Cut three Factories for a Tomb, a Plains, and keep one Factory? Just another possibility.

[The Wes]

Ok, I won the Gyof free tourney a couple weeks back with stax with a green splash but I do have problems with your card choices. I ran:

//Lands
5 Plains
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Savannah

//Spells
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of the Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon
3 Smokestack
3 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

//Sideboard
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Suppression Field
3 Pithing Needle
4 Choke
4 Krosan Grip

First off I'd say you don't need as much green mana as you have in your mana bass. I only once in a great while wished I had a little more, but not that much. I'd say 4 horizon canopy is way too many. I have to agree with Misplayer that exploration isn't really needed, and really just hampers chalice and trini, which are two of the main reason to play armagedon stax. Stax relies on locking people out, not just playing an extra land. Loosing a chalice and 4 trini's is rough and leads you to have cards like city of solitude which isn't a good reason to play green. Who needs compost? I've never really had that big of a problem with black decks anyway. You splash geen and you dont' add Krosan Grip? It and Choke are the two amazing green cards that make spashing green worth it. Tombs>Cities. Also as I run 2 Tabernacles main also let me suggest going up to 26 lands.

[MikeyFlowers]

To be honest I just ported the board from another player's list and was using it as a starting point, there are several changes to be made. My main list I'm going to adjusy somewhat as well knowing that I need to adjust the manabase as well as a couple other points of the deck.

I posted this list as a draft to get feedback and so far you've already helped me out with some good ideas. Ill work out some of the kinks and post a new list once I get back on a PC and off a Blackberry trying to post (blech!).

For starters though I'm going four Ancient Tomb instead of four City of Traitors and then taking out the Mishra's Factories for two City of Traitors and a Plains.

About the Horizon Canopy count: they are there to use as a draw trick in conjunction with Exploration.

Because my deck doesn't lend itslef to 3spheres I'm thinking about finding something else to play in the board in their place and Krosan Grip and Replenish both look good.

I'm also thinking that I will cut another Chalice to make room for the fifth 'Geddon effect.

I realze that my list isnt exactly orthodox, but I'm going for something unique here. After some further thought and consideration I'll post an updated decklist later on.

Please keep the feedback coming, I'm excited about this list and want it to survive.

Edit: anybody coming up with a card that produces multiple White mana whether a land or otherwise, thanks guys and gals.

[keys]

Remote Farm??

Tooth of Ramos, Coalition Relic, Gilded Lotus......?

[Mordel]

Cutting chalices...? First turn chalice for one is one of the best plays the deck makes, followed closely by a turn two/three one for two. Lunacy.

[ykpon]

can somebody explain sb Krosan Grips? i know that card is very good and you can name a lot of potential targets for it. but really, is it what stax needs? what popular artifacts and enchantments are we afraid of? we don't care about countertop, plague, humility and stax/stompy stuff at all. suppression fields are better against survival, karmic justice is better against deed. if you don't have enough space, you can always mix them with pithing needles.

also, the only blue decks running targets we care about are dreadstill and landstill, in other matches oblivion ring seems to be better. landstill matchup imo depends more on our fast trinisphere + ld and their fow than on ways to deal with pernicious deed. so as i can see dreadstill is the only match up i really want grips in. and dreadstill isn't popular here at all, so should i still run grips in my sb?

now i have a light 1 savannah + 3 chokes splash just because it doesnt' hurt my deck at all being sometimes useful and without splash i have unneeded sb slots anyway.

[The Wes]

Grips have been great! They hit dreadnaught which can often kill you faster than you can find another answer and dodging both counterballance (usually) and counters. Grip is better against survival, and can often hit it before they get an activation at all. I've tried and tried to get karmic justise to work but most decks that run deed also run grip, and just grip my karmic then deed. I've found grip to be better in most deed situation. It also hits ee thats often brought in to get rid of my diamonds and chalices. In many cases the problem artifact/enchant is in a deck that runs counters, and I like to pretty much know that my answer is actually going to effect it. Too often you want to use your removal right away, and not wait around for a o ring. I still use 3 o rings anyway between main and side. Just for starters I used my grips in this last tournament against vials (gobs, merfolk, and D and T), ee's, naughts, and needles off the top of my head.

Getting rid of more chalices???? Getting rid of all trini's? Are you feeling alright? Were you dropped when you were little? How do you win against thresh or combo? Chalice for 1 or trini are the two best things this deck can do turn one. It seems like you are changing the deck away from stax for rather little gain. I've rarely cared if I can play two lands a turn unless I'm so far behind i'm betting it wouldn't have mattered much. Stax survives because it locks down the opponent, we arn't as explosive as dragon stompy, we need redundancy of lock pieces.

[MikeyFlowers]

Guys, I can't run 3sphere or Chalice at one because I'm trying to play Exploration. The reason I want to get Exploration on there is because I've alays been a fan of draw tricks and this opens the deck up to them.

The way I plan to win is to dig for Humility/Moat then fly in for four damage a turn with Elspeth's soldier token. Meanwhile with five 'geddon effects and three Oblivion Rings, yes, I do think I should have enough time to get out Humility/Moat. I may have a poor matchup against combo or huge countermagic decks but those decks aren't my target opponents anyways.

My deck is designed to be played very differently from yours apparently and you either aren't reading the posts or simply think that it is such a bad idea it shouldn't be done. If it is the latter then that's what I came here for in the first place, to seek advice.

I'll get a closer to finalized deck list posted later on and we can discuss it from there. Before you pointlessly flame at least read my posts though.

Edit: in order to make the masses happy I'm starting to thiml about a transformational board with Chalices and 3Spheres.... If I ever get off this blackberry and onto a real PC tonight ill get up a couple different deck lists and we'll take it from there.

[The Wes]

Sorry if some of the responses sounded like flames, its just that the cards you are trying to remove are usually considered essential to any stax list. A main reason that armageddons are so powerful, in armageddon stax, is that you keep the opponent at such a low amount of mana that your chalices and trinis make it impossible to play a spell. With armageddon stax once you successfully cast that geddon the opponent often has to draw 3 lands before they can do anything again (or two before they can attack in the case of ghostly). Yes, you have the tabernacles to be synergetic with the armageddons, but you are loosing a lot of the synergy of the deck by removing two of the important lock pieces. If you want to keep trying exploration, why not keep the trinis main and just remove the chalices? That way you can still cast the exploration later just for a higher amount. Maybe somethign along the lines of (from you last deck list) -3chalice, -1 moat, +4 trini? That way you still take advantage, somewhat, of the synergy between geddons and trini, and you only loose one moat that arn't very good in multiples. I realize humilities also arn't very good in multiples, but i'd be more affriand of not having them than the moat, you still have the factories to block with.

[MikeyFlowers]

So I've kept on thinking about it and here's where I'm at for a list. I haven't even gotten to test it yet but I want to post it because I'm excited about the idea and I want to get it out there. Many of you may still hate the idea but I've gotten a couple good ideas out of the last few posts. Here it is, my current (though untested) build:

Lands
Ancient Tomb 4
Flagstones of Trokair 3
Horizon Canopy 4
City of Traitors 2
Plains 7
Savannah 1
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale 2
Wasteland 2

Artifact
Smokestack 2
Mox Diamond 4
Crucible of Worlds 4
Chalice of the Void 2
Trinisphere 3

Enchantment
Exploration 4
Humility 4
Moat 3
Oblivion Ring 2

Planeswalker
Elspeth, Knight Errant 3

Sorcery
Armageddon 3
Ravages of War 2

Sideboard
Trinisphere 1
Choke 3
Krosan Grip 2
Pithing Needle 2
City of Solitude 3
Chalice of the Void 2
Replenish 1
Oblivion Ring 1

So now unfortunately I'm up to 61 cards and I really would like to be at 60. I should let you all know that I'm not a Stax player, I'm just a player who is trying to come up with a Stax list that I would like. I took some of the good advice you guys have given me and tried to work my list into something more of a compromise between what I want to do and the way that real Stax players would like to see the deck be built. I think I'm making progress anyways. Please keep the ideas coming. If you really hate the deck, whatever, let me know that as well. I can't wait to get some testing in with it.

Per the comments of some people earlier in the thread maybe it is the third Elspeth which I should cut?

[ykpon]

Chalice of the Void 2
Trinisphere 2
Absofuckinglutely wrong numbers, man. I suppose Trinispheres yet can be sometimes cut to 3 of (but not in the build with 5 geddons, obviously), but 4 Chalices are what you should start building any Stax deck with :confused:

[MikeyFlowers]

That's why I play two Chalice and two Trinisphere in the board. If I'm in a matchup where my cute draw tricks are getting me face smashed then I just change the deck to be traditional Stax.

If you've been reading my posts my goal is to build a list that plays Exploration. I'm not just out here not trying to do anyrhing in particular and for some reason build a Stax deck without what every Stax list plays. I'm not the only person who has ever thought it would be fun.
Some people threw some cool ideas and I think its a neat deck. I'll try and get out to Wocester this Wednesday and Sunday and see if it has any potential and if it doesn't then I will re-evaluate the situation and get the Exploration idea out of the deck.

[Misplayer]

Mikey, you have to consider the cost/benefit of Exploration. The cost is 4x Trinisphere and 4x Chalice. These cards are certified game winners. Now think about the benefit: best case scenario - you either get Crucible online and draw an extra card per turn with Canopy, or you accelerate into some early lock pieces. To me, those specific situations are not worthwhile enough to justify running Exploration. For you they may be, but I think this logic is why many in this thread are advising you against it. That doesn't mean you shouldn't go for it and try to optimize your list, but if you're going to post it in this thread then you should expect a lot of "cut Exploration, play 4 Chalice/Trinisphere" recommendations.

[MikeyFlowers]

Alright, when you put it that way it makes a lot more sense. I started with an idea and then tried to go from there but you're right. I probably shouldn't have put it here and if the seasoned Stax players are telling me it's no good then it probably isn't.

Edit: I've been playing with the above list for a handful of games and it has performed better than expected. I don't know whether that means it performed any better than a traditional Stax list would have or not. One fun thing about the deck is recurring Wasteland with Exploration / Crucible. The Explorations really have opened up a whole host of cool and unexpected (to me) things that the deck can do. I really like playing it and think it's still worth a look.

And I agree, Trinisphere is super important to the deck. The other cuts I made to fit Exploration seem worthwhile to me. Every time I draw an Exploration I get excited becuase the deck is about to do some cool stuff. I suppose that drawing a Chalice would have the same effect in the normal 'Geddon Stax build but for now I'm going to keep on trying to work this Exploration Stax list.

[Patrick]

Exploration is fun to play in this deck, but certainly not competitive. It's drawbacks are huge: It costs 1, it's green, it's not an artifact, it's taking up spots of cards you can't win without, and it doesn't make the deck any better. Wasteland/Crucible/Exploration is fun in casual though. Put it in an EDH with Strip Mine and Ghost Quarter. Lulz ensue.

[The Wes]

The only way I could see making exploration at least a little competitive in this desk is to keep the trinis, but remove the chalices. At least then you maintain some of your lock associated with the geddons. The fact that its not an artifact and is green shouldn't be held against it though.

[damionblackgear]

I'm looking into building this deck and I agree with Elspeth being used but I'm also wondering why Cenn's Enlistment isn't an option. Can someone explain that too me?

It seems as though it works well with the deck and can provide not only stax support but also works well with Crucible. Not to mention that they trade with almost everything when a Humility is on the field. If I missed the conversation just let me know what pages to look at and I'll go read them.

[The Wes]

Well, what would we take out for it? What hole does it fill in the deck? We have the stax fodder with Elspeth/crucible/flagstone. Usually we don't need any more blockers. Between our lock pieces (ghostly/moat) keeping them from not attacking and our blocks (elspeth tokens/mishra's) I wouldn't see it being that needed. We also run magus/tabernacle effects which would make casting this more often not that helplful.

If you must run another token generater, which i don't suggest, mobilization just seems better. At least then your soldiers can perform double duty of attacking and blocking.

[Mordel]

Cenn's Enlistment seems strictly worse than Elspeth and the deck doesn't really have room for more of the same either way.

On the whole exploration thing: the deck already runs plenty of acceleration and while being able to draw two cards a turn is cute, waste locks aren't as plentiful as they used to be(in my experience) and the disruption/protection that chalice affords is far more valuable. Chalice is one of the reasons to play a tomb aggro mana base deck. How disrupting your opponent's ability to dig into their deck, play goyfs or answers could get removed in favor of extra acceleration confuses me. Smokestack is easily supported at two counters with Elspeth, crucible + flagstones and a deck that is almost entirely composed of permanents, so I don't understand that purpose.
Wasting one land a turn is good enough and sacrificing land drops+two mana to draw additional cards each turn seems counter-intuitive when the reason you need to be digging that quickly is because your opponent will be able to play more freely because of the absence of CotV.

I think it all comes down to which is the stronger first few turns:

turn one chalice for one
turn two 3sphere(personal favorite), crucible with a wasteland or chalice for two

OR

turn one exploration(requires a splash mana)
turn two 3sphere, crucible+wasteland

The first opening plays rarely resulted in my losing a game and also protects me from duresses, any other mongeese, stifling any bigger chalice triggers and makes at least one draw spell in my opponent's deck dead. Almost every deck in the format runs cards between the casting cost range of one to three and many also have a very decisive plan as far as curving out their plays. CotV puts a big kink in the plan of curving out and prevents threats or cards that provide card quality(read:additional threats) from being played. I don't see exploration being nearly that good. The nice thing about the redundance of many cards in white stax and stand alone effectiveness is that the deck isn't really that desperate for card draw and definitely not desperate enough to cut one of the best early plays that it makes.

I'm hoping that I have helped beat the exploration horse to death.

[_perfido_]

First of all, 'cause I'm new on this forum: hi to everyone :smile:

I'm giving an up to this topic for focus the attention, and receive yr help, not more on the building of the MD of this deck but on its SB.

A SB that could be usefull in a varied meta, as could be a big tournament with more than 50 partecipants, with for sure some decks expected, but with the impossibility to make a well focused SB.

I read several topic about this deck, and made a lot of playtest, so I think that I found the right (I'd like to say "perfect" :tongue:) MD solutions for the Armageddon Staxx.

For these reasons I will not give any explainations about the MD choises, but I'll give them to anyone will ask me.

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Mishra's Factory
6 Plains
3 Wasteland

// Creatures
4 Magus of the Tabernacle

// Spells
3 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere

As I said I'd like to discuss with u about the SB. What I'm playing now is:

// Sideboard
3 Aura of Silence
3 Karmic Justice
3 Sphere of Law
2 Suppression Field
4 Defense Grid

Defense Grid is my answer to blu based decks (i.e. 3sold, baseruption). It's the card that everyone think it's the right solution for these decks, along with CotV e 3sphere. More solutions r Aura of Silence (i.e. topbalance) and Suppression Field (i.e. fetches, top), also if the last one is probably the most discussed card about the SB of a Staxx, 'cause next to its help there is the drawback with our lands with activated abilities.

The last two, together with Karmic Justice, r solutions against Pernicious Deed, also if I'm agree with Bane of the Living on this forum


Concerning Leonin Abunas/Karmic Justice-

I did try this guy at some point before I decided to foresake the "Cover your Ass" plan. Its simply not worth it to remain reactive. Even Karmic Justice is a card that DOES NOTHING. No really. Cards that only 'turn on' when your opponent does a certain something are usually bad. The only instance I can think to argue that is Standstill because it 'turns on' when the opponent plays any spell, not one that will blow up Crucible.

In short, being proactive lockdeck > being a reactive control deck.

Then in the today meta Deed is a less prob related to Trygon Predator and Krosan Grip.

At the moment I couldn't find any replacement for Karmic, maybe the PW Elspeth, but I think it is too slow against Predator and Grip.

The last one is Sphere of Law, answer to the red based decks. But because of the decay of the Goblin decks and of the more important presence of the Dragon Stompy decks, I was thinking to swap the Sphere with the Circle of Protection: Red, that will almost totaly lock the beating game plan of the DS.

One more thought is about Story Circle: for sure not so agile as CoP because of its double :w:, but it is out of the range of our lock (CotV and 3sphere) and could be used as solution for Trygon Predator.

At the end there r not more solutions for aggro.decks and ichorids 'cause with my MD I'm always over them.

Waiting for yr answers.

_perfido_

[johanessen]

@List

I really like your list. Expert at doing what Stacks is supposed to do. But I'd like to make space for Elspeth, Knight Errant, since is a non-graveyard dependant way to feed Smokestack, the card that gave the name to the deck. I believe the first cards to come out are the Oblivion Rings, but the fact Ghostly Prisions doesn't protect the girl to be attacked can be important.

[Skeggi]

First off: welcome! :smile:


Defense Grid is my answer to blu based decks (i.e. 3sold, baseruption). It's the card that everyone think it's the right solution for these decks, along with CotV e 3sphere.
Actually, Defense Grid doesn't work that well in combination with 3Sphere. Others have tried maindeck Horizon Canopies and Chokes in the Sideboard. Could be an idea for you.


More solutions r Aura of Silence (i.e. topbalance) and Suppression Field (i.e. fetches, top), also if the last one is probably the most discussed card about the SB of a Staxx, 'cause next to its help there is the drawback with our lands with activated abilities.
I'm not such a fan of Aura of Silence since it costs :w::w:. I think you should just stick to Oblivion Ring. Suppression field also shuts down your Factories and Wastelands, I'd prefer Pithing Needle. It also deals with Pernicious Deed alot more reliable, making Karmic Justice unneeded.


Then in the today meta Deed is a less prob related to Trygon Predator and Krosan Grip.

A single Krosan Grip shouldn't be a huge problem. If you have problems with Predators, you may want to consider Humilities, but that would require an entire different set-up, leaning more towards Dutch Stax or an in-between version like The Wes'. These versions run 0 creatures and rely on Elspeth to bring in the kill. Main difference is that Dutch Stax uses Moats and The Wes' build uses Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.



The last one is Sphere of Law, answer to the red based decks. But because of the decay of the Goblin decks and of the more important presence of the Dragon Stompy decks, I was thinking to swap the Sphere with the Circle of Protection: Red, that will almost totaly lock the beating game plan of the DS.

One more thought is about Story Circle: for sure not so agile as CoP because of its double :w:, but it is out of the range of our lock (CotV and 3sphere) and could be used as solution for Trygon Predator.

Ever considered Runed Halo then? (I'm not a fan because of the double white, I run Spheres of Law, but not because of DS, but because of Goblins and Zoo in my meta)

Hope that helps :wink:

[Misplayer]

I'm going to recommend a 4th Trinisphere, but your maindeck looks pretty solid.

On sideboard, Defense Grid is nice, but Trinisphere is better. The relevant counterspells in the format are Force of Will and Daze (and Spell Snare, but that doesn't do much against Stax). With Trinisphere out, Defense Grid does absolutely nothing to these spells. For this reason, I play 4 Trinisphere main, and maybe 2 Defense Grid sideboard, as it is often only Trinispheres 5-6.

Keep in mind that while you may have 9 potential anti-NLU/Thresh/CounterTop cards in your SB, fitting all those in for Game 2 without weakening the deck is going to be very very difficult.

Aura of Silence is not just good against decks like Dreadstill/Mirror match/Enchantress, but it's also HUGE against combo.

Runed Halo is a solid SB card in many matchups.

I have no experience with Karmic Justice.

Lastly, Skeggi just ninja'd like 1/2 of my post. (Also, I agree with him on P. Needle).

[The Wes]

Gonna have to aggree for the most part with Misplayer and Skeggi. If you are really that worried about counters either run 4 trinisphere main or splash for green for choke in the sb. Both have served me well over the years (or months in the case of choke).

I have no experience with Runed Halo so I'll leave that to others.

About Karmic Justice. It reminds me alot of highschool. I was with this girl that seemed great. Everytime you rationally looked at the situation we fit together great. She complimented me, she helped support my weaknesses. I wanted to love this girl, I tried to love this girl. Sadly 95% of the time I was with her I wished she was someone else. As much as rationally we seemed to work well together, it never seemed to work out. Karmic justice is like that a lot for me. I've been with it in several online tourneys and at least 3 rl ones. In those dozens games, where I've sb'd it in, I've been happy to have it twice and only once did it really help me win the game. Every few pages someone comes along in this tread talking about how great karmic seems to be as a sb card and I think back to highschool. The card (at least in the current way we play) doesn't work out that well overall.

Even when I still ran Magus in my stax lists I also ran Tabernacles (at least one). The ability to armageddon and then drop a tabernacle is too powerful to ignore and lets be honest here, I'd rather have two tabernacle effects out and only be paying 2 an upkeep instead of 4.

If you are really that worried about predators, dreadstill, enchantress, goblins, fish, survival, or hell even elves, may I suggest Humility.

I'd also have a hard time going bellow 3 of in our sb unless its to fill out a playset of something in the main. We have so little draw that you are rarely going to be able to find those s. fields until after it really matters.

[johanessen]

What do you think about black splash for nether void in complement to trinisphere? (Geddon Stax)

Here is the list (I only own one Ravage of War, this is why I play 4 Armageddon)

6 Plains
1 Scrubland
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mox Diamond

3 Moat
3 Elspeth, The Knight Errant
4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere
2 Nether Void
3 Oblivion Ring

Sideboard
1 Savannah
4 Choke
1 Trinisphere
3 Humility
I'm not sure to add plague (naming soldier seems sweet)
And don't know need more testing, maybe Some Vindicate, or Braids?

[Skeggi]

That's a 3 color build with Moats and Elspeths. Nonononono. Drop black. It's the path to the Dark Side young Padawan.

[The Wes]

I'd say braids and vindicates are the reason to run black in stax. But perhaps I'm a bit biassed because I ran b/w stax for a while. I'm not sure if your mana base can handle 3 colors though.

[johanessen]

When we side savannah if we fear for mana screw we can side out scrubland along with voids and add 4th trinis, but i think nether void is too great.

I switched Moats for Humilities as last update

[_perfido_]

Hi guys, first of all tks for yr replies, I read it with much attention and now I'll give u my feedbacks :cool:


I read several discussion about the opportunity to play in the MD Elspeth, but I really couldn't find place for she(?!) in my list, expecially in place of the Oring. The opportunity to remove a menace with such precision is fantastic, expecially with the great first step we have (i.e. AEther Vial or Goblin Lache on Turn1 for a Goblin deck. Then the same Pernicious Deed if my opponent plays it without the mana for a quick activation or a Trygon Predator not under a Magus/Prison lock yet).


Understood that with 3sphere in play, and considering the alternative costs of FoW and Daze, Grid is not more than another 3sphere, could we change the set of the SB with 1 more 3sphere and only 2 Grid, gaining 1 more place in SB and a strongest solution versus combo deck???


About Choke I'd like not to splash this deck and for sure not with Horizon Canopies, but at least with Savannah, which is a valid target for the Flagstone. My other doubts r that, out of Savannah, already 19/29 of our mana resources r under Wasteland, and that also with Savannah we'll have only 8/29 of our mana resources that could give as a :g: mana.


P. Needle is for sure a great card, but usually I will not mulligan if it's not in my first hand, and if it's possible one of my first openings is CotV for 1. I think that the best cards for this deck have to be with a cc3 or more, even the cc2 could be not so good, 'cause after a CotV they will became dead cards.


Agree about Suppression Field 'cause it's not a one way lock, I think that Aura of Silence is a great card, also with the double :w:. Very usefull against decks like Dreadstill/Mirror match/Enchantress, but I don't understand why it's also HUGE against combo, as Misplayer said.


Runed Halo it's another usefull solution, but as observed it has a double :w: cost. In this sight I'd prefere Story Circle, 'cause its cc out of our lock, and 'cause, as I said, it could be more flexible, naming a colour and not a card (for sure against combo Halo >>> Circle).


Humility it's not playable in my decK choise, 'cause of the Magus. I think it's necessary a different point of view on the list, maybe with Elspeth and Moat.


For what said until now the SB could be:

// Sideboard
3 Aura of Silence
3 Sphere of Law/Story Circle
2 Defense Grid
1 Trinisphere

and what more??? Probably this is the "for sure" part of the SB, but as u know I'm try to reach the "perfect" SB for play in a big tournament.

Waiting for yr help :laugh:

_perfido_

P.S. anyone could pm me a list of the Dutch Stax or the The Wes' build???

[The Wes]

Well, the list I won the no goyf tourney with was:

//Lands
5 Plains
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Savannah

//Spells
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of the Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon
3 Smokestack
3 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

//Sideboard
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Suppression Field
3 Pithing Needle
4 Choke
4 Krosan Grip

The Dutch Stax thread can be found here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12515

Just from personal experience the 6 md green sources and flagstones to fetch them was plenty of green mana to support my 4x choke and grips. I'll post more when I have time later.

[Misplayer]

I don't understand why it's also HUGE against combo, as Misplayer said.

It makes all their Lotus Petals/Chrome Moxes mostly dead and makes LED a whole lot worse. This is more true for Ad Nauseam based builds than TES or FT/Doomsday decks.

On Story Circle: It doesn't stop Dreadnought or Mishra's Factory. The W for every activation can be difficult as well.

[_perfido_]

Hi to every1, I'm back :laugh:

In the last time I continued to work on my Armageddon Staxx and on its SB, and at the moment I reach this result:

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Mishra's Factory
6 Plains
3 Wasteland

// Creatures
4 Magus of the Tabernacle

// Spells
4 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere

// Sideboard
1 Trinisphere
4 Aura of Silence
2 Hanna's Custody
2 Sphere of Law
3 Suppression Field
2 Defense Grid
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

First of all I move at 61 cards MD, with the 6th geddon.effect (for sure is MWS, but sometimes I missed a more geddon.effect presence in my topdeck. In these days I could test only on MWS :cry:).

About the SB, I followed the Misplayer observations


Defense Grid is nice, but Trinisphere is better. The relevant counterspells in the format are Force of Will and Daze (and Spell Snare, but that doesn't do much against Stax). With Trinisphere out, Defense Grid does absolutely nothing to these spells. For this reason, I play 4 Trinisphere main, and maybe 2 Defense Grid sideboard, as it is often only Trinispheres 5-6.

and decided for a 6x 3sphere, with the 4th 3sphere and 2 Defense Grid. I really felt confortable with this solution, so tks to Misplayer :wink:

Against aggro deck, 'cause in very few matches I observed some difficults, I decided for a mono The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, and of the aggro is goblin for a 2x Sphere of Law.

Hanna's Custody, a back to the past, is because a lot of decks run already Trygon Predator and Qasali Pridemage MD, also if against the 1st one is a lot less usefull :mad:

Aura of Silence is perfect for mirror, Enchantress.deck, and could be also very usefull against topbalance.deck, Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives.

The 3x of Suppression Field is really a black point in the list. For sure is the only simmetrical lock in the deck, but I really think this card could be very usefull... I thought about Damping Matrix too in this slot, but 'cause it doesn't have effect on the lands I decided for the enchantment.

Well, what do u think about this???

Waiting for yr replies :cool:

_perfido_

[ClearSkies]

Hanna's Custody doesn't really protect itself through. I prefer Karmic Justice as "protection" (not really) than Hanna's Custody. Most people want to destroy Karmic Justice before hitting the other stuff.

Also, it punishes them for sweeping the board.

[Michael Keller]

Hanna's Custody doesn't really protect itself through. I prefer Karmic Justice as "protection" (not really) than Hanna's Custody. Most people want to destroy Karmic Justice before hitting the other stuff.

Also, it punishes them for sweeping the board.

I tried Hanna's Custody, and it just seems more and more like a dead draw. Granted, it protects your artifacts, but it is far too reactive when you should be establishing board-position rather than protecting artifacts.

Karmic Justice, on the other hand, does offer a better source of "protection" as ClearSkies indicated.

[_perfido_]

Quote:

Hanna's Custody doesn't really protect itself through. I prefer Karmic Justice as "protection" (not really) than Hanna's Custody. Most people want to destroy Karmic Justice before hitting the other stuff.

Also, it punishes them for sweeping the board.
I tried Hanna's Custody, and it just seems more and more like a dead draw. Granted, it protects your artifacts, but it is far too reactive when you should be establishing board-position rather than protecting artifacts.

Karmic Justice, on the other hand, does offer a better source of "protection" as ClearSkies indicated.

I'm not so agree: for sure Karmic Justice > Hanna's Custody as reaction to a sweeper effect, but both have to be destroyed before hitting the other stuff, and I think Hanna's Custody is better against cards like Qasali Pridemage and Krosan Grip, for sure less against Trygon Predator... at least we gain a turn :really: (I know, against Predator again Karmic > Hanna, also if for sure we'll lose some element of our board).

_perfido_

[Melwis]

So I need some feedback on the current Armageddon Stax list i'm playing with. I've been running with 4 Magus most of the time but decided to try 2 Elspeth's + 2 Humility for the first time. This is my list:

4 Flagstones
7 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Ancinet Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mox Diamond
2 Elspeth
2 Humility
4 Crucible
3 Armageddon
3 Ravages
4 Chalice
4 Trinisphere
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Smokestack
2 Oblivion Ring

I recently played against my brothers Sligh deck and managed to establish control when I was at 2 life. The problem was that I wasn't able to finish him quickly enough (had 1 Factory out) and when he also was left at 2 life he managed to get a third land out and played Fireblast (I had Chalice at 1 & Sphere out coupled with Crucibles, Prisons and the like).

Questions:

1. Would adding a third Elspeth be a good idea so I can kill my opponent with increased speed when I finally have him locked out? What would I cut?

2. Is my deck better suited to run 4 Magus instead of Elspeth + Humility?

3. When I added Humility + Elspeth in the list I decided to cut 1 Wasteland & 1 Factory to make room for 2 more Plains giving me 15 white sources. Can I lower this count and still play with cards that costs WW?

Any toughts regarding the list will be apprecited! :)

[The Wes]

Ok, first off I'd say that if you are playing humility instead of tabernacle effects I'd go for this change:
-1 x City
-2 x Plains
-1 x Ravages

+1 x Horizon Canopy
+1 x Mishra's
+1 x Tabernacle Land (if you have it, if not keep a city or plains or bring back a wasteland...)
+1 x Humity

While I love humilty, with your 6 geddon effects it seems that Tabernacles, both the land and the magus are benifitted more. None of this though will help that much with the sligh matchup, sometimes they are just that fast.

If I had the ravages, enough to go 6 geddon effects I'd love the tabernacle lands, but they are rather pricy.

I've been running 2 Elsepth for a long while now with no big problems, but I also have the 4 mishra's. Stax just rarely races anything.

[Melwis]

Ok, first off I'd say that if you are playing humility instead of tabernacle effects I'd go for this change:
-1 x City
-2 x Plains
-1 x Ravages

+1 x Horizon Canopy
+1 x Mishra's
+1 x Tabernacle Land (if you have it, if not keep a city or plains or bring back a wasteland...)
+1 x Humity

While I love humilty, with your 6 geddon effects it seems that Tabernacles, both the land and the magus are benifitted more. None of this though will help that much with the sligh matchup, sometimes they are just that fast.

If I had the ravages, enough to go 6 geddon effects I'd love the tabernacle lands, but they are rather pricy.

I've been running 2 Elsepth for a long while now with no big problems, but I also have the 4 mishra's. Stax just rarely races anything.

I will do some more testing before I decide wether I like Humility or not. Right now I would probably switch them out and get Magus back in but I haven't played with Humility enough to say if it's for the better. If I start to like it I will put a third in the list and reducing the amount of Geddon effects to either 4 or 5.

About the land changes:

I want the fourth Factory back in for sure and if I could find room, Wasteland aswell. If I cut Plains it feels risky running with less than 15 white mana sources when having cards that needs WW, what do you think?

I really dislike the Tabernacle land since it doesn't tap for mana and it could screw you up if you get it in your starting hand. If it is good enough to make up for it I don't know but I have a hard time adding it to the list (I don't really have all these cards, some of them I proxy since I only play casual anyways).

Horizon Canopy seems decent and I could probably give it a try. Perhaps even as a 2-of. It would make you a bit more fragile against Wasteland but with 4 Crucibles and with all the tax effects this deck has I believe it's rare that your opponent wants to use Wasteland against you, am I right?

Anyways, I just want the deck to have a faster clock then 10 turns (1 Mishra) when I establish control and running with 4 Factories is a good start. I'll do some more testing with that and if it still doesn't satisfy me i'll try to make room for the third Elspeth I mentioned.

[The Wes]

You don't like the tabernacle land? SHAME on you, its amazing. I've been running different variations of armageddon stax back since winter of 05/06. Everytime I try to take the tabernacle lands out of my list I find it performs worse. I run 26 lands though, with 2 of them being tabernacles. The ability to go geddon then drop a tabernacle is too great to pass up. Who cares if it doesn't tap for mana. Don't consider it as a land, consider it as a business card taxing effect that doesn't use the stack, and can be discarded to diamond. Even when I ran magus, I still had 1-2 tabernacles main, they are just that good. They have the ability to turn the game around. I've won a lot of games being able to geddon then tabernacle after that to clear their board.

If you really want the deck to be faster, and arn't going to play humilty there are other options such as exalted angel and windborn muse.

[Melwis]

You don't like the tabernacle land? SHAME on you, its amazing. I've been running different variations of armageddon stax back since winter of 05/06. Everytime I try to take the tabernacle lands out of my list I find it performs worse. I run 26 lands though, with 2 of them being tabernacles. The ability to go geddon then drop a tabernacle is too great to pass up. Who cares if it doesn't tap for mana. Don't consider it as a land, consider it as a business card taxing effect that doesn't use the stack, and can be discarded to diamond. Even when I ran magus, I still had 1-2 tabernacles main, they are just that good. They have the ability to turn the game around. I've won a lot of games being able to geddon then tabernacle after that to clear their board.

If you really want the deck to be faster, and arn't going to play humilty there are other options such as exalted angel and windborn muse.

Well, even if I ignore my feelings for Tabernacle and I decide to run it I have a hard time with slots as it is. If I would drop all cards that require WW then perhaps I would be able to squeeze in 1-2 Tabernacle but it would be tight.

Must have cards (my opinion):
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ghostly Prison
4-6 Armageddon/Ravages
4 Crucible
3-4 Flagstones
3-4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3-4 Smokestack

So 45-50 slots are already used if you ask me. With these you then have a total of 18-20 lands and 7-8 white mana sources. You want around 4-8 more lands (24-26 total) in the deck and if running cards that require WW I think atleast 14 white mana sources is necessary (tell me if i'm wrong about this). So if this is the case, the 4-8 slots you have for mana will all be used up by either Plains and/or possibly Horizon Canopy meaning no place left for Tabernacle.

About the other wincons:

Exalted Angel is a nice wincon when you've established control but the fact that it doesn't help with locking your opponent down is a big downside. If Exalted Angel would read: "You draw Exalted Angel only after you have established control" then it would rock but that's not the case, is it? ;)

Windborn Muse is not bad but I would say Magus is just better. Perhaps a deck that runs both would be able to get a faster clock without losing to much control power? For example 4 Magus & 2 Muse coupled with the included 4 Ghostly Prison to give a total of 6 Propaganda effects?

For now I will keep 2 Elspeth & 4 Factories as my wincon cause I really see the potential in Elspeth. The only thing that makes it questionable is the fact that Elspeth requires WW but other then that I see no reason to ask for a different wincon cause when you're reading Elspeth you just shout: "Synergy!" :)

[GGoober]

Have people tested out Baneslayer Angel in Angel Stax? I know that Exalted Angel has not been popular in recent builds, but has anyone given this Angel a shot in Stax? I can potentially see her being played as a 1-2 ofs in non-Humility or Moat deck versions. With Chalice protection, she can balance the lifeloss from the earlier turns and race Tombstalkers for the win. From playing the deck, I disliked Exalted Angel from her mana investment, especially if you don't have protection, Exalted Angel really is an expensive vulnerable creature. Hitting 3WW isn't that hard for the deck and I've tried out Battlegrace Angel in place of exalted Angel but the line wasn't clear which was better. Baneslayer seems like it would fill the new role in Angel Stax if that version of White Stax is still viable in today's meta.

[The Wes]

I run 10 white sources, not counting the diamonds, with 3 humilities and 2 elsepths, and still fit 2 tabernacles. I've found 4 Cities to be a bit too much for my taste though. Hell, I splash for green also. Colored mana hasn't been a problem so far...

[_erbs_]

Baneslayer is a good finisher in stax indeed but in my armageddon stax build i don't have a space for her. My finisher's are mishra's factory and magus of the tabernacle only.

[ykpon]

Baneslayer is a good finisher in stax indeed but in my armageddon stax build i don't have a space for her. My finisher's are mishra's factory and magus of the tabernacle only.

this. 3-4 Maguses and 3-4 Factories are enough. play additional finishers only if you think they can really help you locking your opponents down. it depends on your meta like:

Windborn Muse if your meta has lots of swarm aggros, especially Goblins. though just siding some Spheres of Law in can be better because of Incinerators.
Aven Mindcensor if your meta has lots of Progenitus and Survivals. also helps our mana denial strategy locking fetchlands. imo it's the best choise but i'm still not sure it earns its slot.
Elspeth can be good against Thresh decks being some kind of Maze of Ith which can suddenly win you a game. nice against some heavy control decks too, but i still think it's bad unless you run Moats and Humilities. very often it will become just a single 1/1 soldier for 4 mana and +1/+1 for their Tarmo because they will have creatures which can't attack you because of Prisons but can easily attack your Elspeth.
Angels are only good against stompies (flying, protection from dragons and having a lot of dead cards matters) and burn/sligh decks (lifegain matters). if these ones are popular, running some Angels (Exalted or new ones) can be a good choise.
If your meta is random or unknown, don't bother yourself adding unneccesary finishers. just add some more Geddons or Oblivion Rings.

upd: sometimes Guardian of the Guildpact can be interesting too.

another thought: what do you think about Peacekeeper? it can give us a lot of time against decks without removal (Merfolk) or decks, which only removal is StP/PtE (tons of decks).

[_erbs_]

In my build having magus killed really hurts my aggro matchup but thats normal in any armageddon stax deck, thats why there's dutch stax. For me adding more threats seems kinda off since stax isn't built to win fast games. But if a white metalworker would be made in the future i'll surely cut magus of the tabernacle in my list.

Currently i've change several parts of my main deck, i've been running 4 tangle wires and 2 bottled cloisters, the spots they took where 2 exalted angel, 3 oring and horizon canopy.

Im running 24 lands and it seems okay. Tanglewire was better that i expected though, but when tanglewire + bottled cloister hits the board at the same time the tempo boost i gain is very nice. Though a normal tanglewire could only save you 1-2 turns, sometimes its enough to top deck something useful. its like what oring does though oring is more permanent compared to tangle wire.

[Nizmox]

Firstly, I don't confess to be a Legacy expert since i've been away from Magic for quite some time but I have a few questions for the experts.

1. Assuming I don't have access to either Moats or Tabernacle Land is there any point attempting a build with Elspeth and Humility or should I stick with the Magus? I have noticed builds with Elspeth generally run Moat so I assume the answer is go with the Magus?

2. How do you rate the two builds? Is the Elspeth build significantly better assuming you have all the needed cards?

3. When running a build with Elspeth, do you actually produce the 1/1's or just use Elspeth to pump the Factories?

Sorry if they seem like daft questions, please bear with me!

[ykpon]

Firstly, I don't confess to be a Legacy expert since i've been away from Magic for quite some time but I have a few questions for the experts.

1. Assuming I don't have access to either Moats or Tabernacle Land is there any point attempting a build with Elspeth and Humility or should I stick with the Magus? I have noticed builds with Elspeth generally run Moat so I assume the answer is go with the Magus?

2. How do you rate the two builds? Is the Elspeth build significantly better assuming you have all the needed cards?

3. When running a build with Elspeth, do you actually produce the 1/1's or just use Elspeth to pump the Factories?

Sorry if they seem like daft questions, please bear with me!

1. Moat protects Elspeth, Ghostly Prison doesn't. i think, it's the most important reason not to run Elspeth in traditional build. there are better fast finishers even if you feel you need them. though Humility can be a nice card if your meta consists of a lot of Survivals, Pridemages and Progenitus. in such meta you can replace Magus with it or better side it in instead of Magus. and i still think you shouldn't run Elspeth if you do so, Mishra's paired with Crucible are awesome enough under Humility to win. main trouble with Humility is it's WW cost, because of which you will sometimes be not able to cast it fast enough.
@Tabernacle land: it isn't that nessesary at all. i can put my hands on it but don't play it since last year just because it hurted me more than helped. the first expensive card for Armageddon Stax should be Ravages of War. and maybe second one should be Ravages too. and only then think about Moats and Tabernacles unless you need them for other decks too.

2. i haven't full set of Moats (and still can't decide if i really need it) so i've tested Dutch Stax in mws only (unlike traditional build). and the only thing i can say about it is that your dick should be at least 50 cm at length if you want to be successful in mws with it. i almost always get multiple Humilities and Moats, no 4th mana, no 2nd white mana and so on. maybe it's just me or just mws shuffle engine, but this deck is really more random, than Armageddon one :cool:

3. it depends. use it as Kor Haven if you are pressed by a single beater. if you are safe enough or can race your opponent count his hp and deside how you can kill him faster: in Bitterblossom mode or in pump one. second one is usually more effective unless he plays some kind of powerful lifegain. plus sometimes Elspeth just should feed your Smokestack until your opponent is weak enough not to resist your attack.

[Nizmox]

1. Moat protects Elspeth, Ghostly Prison doesn't. i think, it's the most important reason not to run Elspeth in traditional build. there are better fast finishers even if you feel you need them. though Humility can be a nice card if your meta consists of a lot of Survivals, Pridemages and Progenitus. in such meta you can replace Magus with it or better side it in instead of Magus. and i still think you shouldn't run Elspeth if you do so, Mishra's paired with Crucible are awesome enough under Humility to win. main trouble with Humility is it's WW cost, because of which you will sometimes be not able to cast it fast enough.
@Tabernacle land: it isn't that nessesary at all. i can put my hands on it but don't play it since last year just because it hurted me more than helped. the first expensive card for Armageddon Stax should be Ravages of War. and maybe second one should be Ravages too. and only then think about Moats and Tabernacles unless you need them for other decks too.

2. i haven't full set of Moats (and still can't decide if i really need it) so i've tested Dutch Stax in mws only (unlike traditional build). and the only thing i can say about it is that your dick should be at least 50 cm at length if you want to be successful in mws with it. i almost always get multiple Humilities and Moats, no 4th mana, no 2nd white mana and so on. maybe it's just me or just mws shuffle engine, but this deck is really more random, than Armageddon one :cool:

3. it depends. use it as Kor Haven if you are pressed by a single beater. if you are safe enough or can race your opponent count his hp and deside how you can kill him faster: in Bitterblossom mode or in pump one. second one is usually more effective unless he plays some kind of powerful lifegain. plus sometimes Elspeth just should feed your Smokestack until your opponent is weak enough not to resist your attack.

Thanks for the in depth responses, are much appreciated!
I think that's answered all my questions and i'll just stick with my Magus build. I'll see if I can get hold of a couple of Ravages since I currently only have 4 geddon to play with.
Many Thanks! Nizmox

[_erbs_]

Thanks for the in depth responses, are much appreciated!
I think that's answered all my questions and i'll just stick with my Magus build. I'll see if I can get hold of a couple of Ravages since I currently only have 4 geddon to play with.
Many Thanks! Nizmox

Hello,
Before purchasing ravages of war play with 4 geddons then if you see that the 4 geddons are lacking thats when the time you could buy ravages of war. In our place it costs aton ($100 ea) for whats its worth.

Basically ykpon has already given you the differences in the two builds.

Just build the defualt geddon stax at the 1st page of this thread then from there you could do your own variation.

[Nizmox]

Hello,
Before purchasing ravages of war play with 4 geddons then if you see that the 4 geddons are lacking thats when the time you could buy ravages of war. In our place it costs aton ($100 ea) for whats its worth.

Basically ykpon has already given you the differences in the two builds.

Just build the defualt geddon stax at the 1st page of this thread then from there you could do your own variation.

Thanks, I'll certainly keep it in mind. Am in no hurry to shell out several hundred dollars so will make sure I do some serious play testing first!
Cheers

[GGoober]

I have recently been testing out Winter Orb in Armageddon Stax, and it's shown good results. My main concerns to include Winter Orb were:

I needed another 2cc slot other than Chalice @1 to make use of Plains + Mox Diamond or Tomb/City with no Mox Diamond turn 1 play. Winter Orb caught my attention and theoretically, it has much synergy with the deck:

- It makes Magus much more deadly.
- It makes playing around 3Sphere difficult when resolved
- It increases the power of Ghostly Prison (even without Armageddon).
- In Elspeth Build, a resolved Orb allows you to create advantage without mana-investment, making the game state even more potent for the opponent.
- Winter Orb is good (this is backed by testing) against Countertop decks, Survival, Landstill, aggro-loam, and other mana-hungry deck. Your opponents can no longer top and survival for granted and have to ration their mana sources.

Winter Orb has served as a slow-Armageddon effect that when combined with either Magus/Ghostly Prison/3Sphere creates enough time-walk events to dig for another answer.


The issues with Winter Orb is:
- It is symmetric: I think that you break the symmetry with Mox Diamond/2-mana lands and synergistic cards that break your opponent's back.
- Multiples are bad (like 3Sphere).


I have another question: Ghostly Prison and Elspeth are not synergistic. Has anyone got around a potential replacement for Ghostly Prison other than Moat in the Elspeth builds? I was pondering about Tangle Wire + Winter Orb in my WOrb Geddon Stax build. Here's a rough list that I've been testing.


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Mishra's Factory/Rishadan Port (needs testing in the WOrb build)
4 Wasteland
6 Plains

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Winter Orb
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere
3 Ghostly Prison

3 Smokestack
4 Armageddon
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Elspeth


SB:
4 Oblivion Ring
yadayada

Note that Ghost /Quarter also becomes very potent in WOrb builds but since the W requirement of the deck is too high, I did not include it.


Here's a ruling question:
If 1 Winter Orb in play is tapped and the other is untapped, do you get to untap all lands? Which Winter Orb effect would affect the gamestate?

[Glorfindel]

In Magic, "can't" always wins from "can". If one card (in play) says you are allowed to do something and the other says you are not allowed, you are not allowed to do that something. So you can't untap all lands in that case.

[MTG-Fan]

Ok. I've been testing this deck lately, and I really like it, BUT...

How do you beat Krosan Grip / Qasali Pridemage?

I can't seem to beat anything aggressive (Aggro-Loam, Thresh) that has 4 K-Grip in the SB in games 2 and 3. It's always at the point where I'm about to lock up the board, with Smokestack or Ghostly Prisons, or whatnot, and he K-Grips a key lock component and then it all falls apart.

EDIT: Maybe take a cue from Enchantress and play Karmic Justice in the SB?

[_erbs_]

@crz87
Winter Orb seems a nice addition its like a mini armageddon. It also makes all your lock parts much stronger. but you'll be suffering it aswell, maybe adding mana arftifacts might work...

I think 2 is the right number for flagstones of trokair, before i used to run 3 but i lowered it down to 2 because drawing them in multiples early on will slow you down greatly.

Ghostly Prison's number for me should 4 , its your early defense mechanism as compared to magus and works very well with both geddon and winter orb.

Tanglewire works well with winter orb aswell but i don't know what to cut for it. In my build i run 2 bottled cloister and 4 tangle wires. Maybe 3 winter orb could fit it reducing the numbers of some of your lock parts.

Maybe this list could work..

Mana [30]
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
2 flagstone of trokair
3 mishra's factory
4 wasteland
8 plains
4 mox diamond
2 coldsteel heart / marble diamond

Utilities [30]
4 trinisphere
4 chalice of the void
3 tangle wire
3 winter orb
3 crusible of worlds
3 smokestack
3 armageddon
4 ghostly prison
3 magus of the tabernacle

or -3 tanglewire +1 armageddon +1 crusible +1 winter orb / magus


@MTG-Fan
krosan grips, pridemage, ingot chewer, shattering spree, serenity, etc would really destory this deck...

karmic justice might work if your meta is well prepared for stax..

[Noman Peopled]

My annual two cents:

1. Don't cut any amount of Crucibles from Stax, ever. Not unless an insane artifact tutor is printed. Something along the lines of Enlightened tutor with "can't be countered, draw a card" added.

2. I have gone from four Flagstones to three solely because I don't have enough Plains for four. I'm still seeing unkeepable hands way more often because of a mixture of non-Tomb/City lands than multiples of Flagstones. Well, it's not like three are essential but I've found it comfortable.

3. If you want to maindeck jank like Marble Diamond, you're on the wrong trek. It makes part of your deck better by making another part worse. As a deck that hugely relies on the impact of individual spells, Stax is especially hurt by the inclusion of mere support cards. I'd try with some amount of Chrome Moxen, and if that doesn't work, ditch the idea and try a build that diverges less from the classic forms (add just two or three Orbs or something instead of going all-out).

4. Orb and Wire are nice, but I don't think cutting stronger effects like Geddon and Smokestack is the way to shore up Stax's weaknesses. Especially since both also have synergy with Orb/Wire. Incidentally, if you want to cut something, try the fourth 3sphere, as they are useless in multiples, too (unless your meta is very combo/blue/burn). So ... I prefer your alternative configuration.

[GGoober]

I've been cutting the 4th Sphere, since it's godlike on turn ones (but you sometimes don't pull off 3cc turn ones). It sucks in multiples and it only becomes effective if you played it turn 1 on the play or set it up before a Geddon, which happens on turn 4. So drawing into that sphere on turn 3/4 is better than having 2 in your hand. Board in the 4th sphere against Landstill/Thresh/combo and you're good.

Like I mentioned, one reason why I wanted to play Winter Orb was to find slots for the 2cc drop. I've tested Sphere of Resistance but that card hurt me more since resolving 4cc spells is much harder. Sphere + Orb does set up a nice lock but you're hurt by it too.

In my testing with WOrb, you can play around it very easily. It's basically as asymmetrical as any of the symmetrical cards (3Sphere, Geddon, Smokestack) in this deck. You have 2-mana lands to untap, and Mox Diamond counts in as well. You can have 3cc open most of the time per turn. The land count is high in this deck so if you play and untap a land each turn, you can get up to 4 mana a turn.

WOrb has given me much opportunity. Without Angels, my deck is much slower, and given the crap card advantage in Stax, WOrb serves as a pseudo card-draw i.e. by delaying turns so that you can draw into an answer. My first experiment with WOrb was in blue Stax, where you can abuse Tangle Wires to the fullest.

I tested a couple of games last night, and I had a WOrb in play and Ghostly Prison. After I geddoned, the opponent was in a dilemma to resolve spells or to put me on a clock, a very slow clock in fact. WOrb makes your opponent think twice about tapping mana and casting spells, which is crucial to this deck since you cannot afford your opponent to clock you too fast. You need to delay to set up a lock. And the nice thing about WOrb is when they do play a spell and overextend, you Armageddon and answer back.

Here's my tweaked list after the advice. I agree I need 4 Ghostly Prison. Tangle Wire is good but I'm afraid that Ghostly Prison has more synergy with the deck. Tangle Wire doesn't stick to lock opponents out after an Armageddon, while Ghostly Prison can be set up before you Armageddon. Tangle Wire needs to be played after Geddon, which isn't too feasible, and doesn't buy you enough time if you don't recover.

I agree that 4 Crucible is a MUST in geddon stax. Simply because that's the whole idea of the deck: Land destruction. In any other versions of Stax e.g. DutchStax, you can drop to 2-3 Crucibles since they're not bent on the Magus/Geddon strategy.

Lands: 25 (I realized that 24 lands was too little for my taste, and I sometimes get fucked by my own 3Sphere after Geddon lol).
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones (3 is the right number. Plains are a little tight in the game)
7 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
(Tabernacle would be nice as 1-2 offs and you can drop Magus count to 3 if you own these)

Win-conditions: 6
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant (I like her in Stax, considering Baneslayer but Elspeth seems to do what Stax needs: generate card pseudo card-advantage with just 2WW investment in one-card)

Locks: 25
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Winter Orb
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
4 Armageddon

Others: 6
4 Mox Diamond
2 Oblivion Ring/Grafted Skullcap/Bottled Cloister/Baneslayer Angel/card-draw


I went back to 4 Armageddon, because they are just too good in the deck. The redundant spells 3sphere/WOrb are dropped to 3 each in the MD. You can board the 4th 3Sphere/WOrb in against Thresh/Landstill. Ghostly Prison is upped to 4 since just one Prison is good enough to buy time. I found that an uncountered WOrb usually leads to harder locks, and enough time for me to set up. You want to board in all 4 ORings, some guides post board after expecting hate. You still fear Trygon but if you resolved 3sphere/Worb, and they play the Trygon, you can safely Oring it without fear since WOrb ensures that they overextend to play Trygon i.e. they won't have mana open to counter.

Daze is somewhat bad against WOrb but even then they're still tied to their mana. If you resolve WOrb and either Ghostly Prison/Magus, it's going to be a walk. The issue with the deck is to get either lock pieces out and tax your opponent. I'm just surprised no one has explored WOrb in this deck. It has synergy with almost all the cards in the deck.

WOrb alone: discourages Landstill/Thresh/Countertop/Survival, and many mana-hungry decks. Aether Vial sucks for WOrb but a card doesn't kill every card. It discourages aggressive plays, which is what this deck needs, to pseudolly slow the clock down so you can survive the early-game onslaught in Legacy format.

Crucible + WOrb: allows you to get 2-4 mana a turn since you can untap and play a land (2 mana for non-City lands, 3-4 mana for one to two City-lands)

Ghostly Prison + WOrb: basically discourages them from attacking since I'm sure they'd rather resolve spells. It almost acts like a Prison/Geddon effect to be honest when they're tied down with mana.

WOrb + Magus: This is perhaps the most painful. They now either sac their creatures or not play spells. They can choose one.

WOrb + 3Sphere: Time walk every 2 turns if they hit their land drops, otherwise time walk every turn.

WOrb + Wasteland: You can now waste their untapped land at their upkeep, leaving them to try to untap basics.


OTHERCOMMENTS:
In this build, Factories seem weaker. The creature lock is set up faster than in normal builds so other than Lackeys, I think Factories don't do much. It's still a good win-condition, but I'm wondering if I should drop them down for Rishadan Ports or even Ghostly Quarters, which is good with WOrb. But I don't want to be reliant on WORb too much in the deck. The main reasons to include WOrb is to give us another solid play if we don't get 3 mana in turn 1. It's easy to get at least 2 mana turn 1 (City/Tomb or Land + Mox). This opens up for better openings and since Winter Orb is a card that is currently underrated in the format but stops and slows down a multitude of decks (Thresh/Landstill/Survival/Sensei's Top.dec), I think it's as good an opening card like 3sphere. More importantly, it slows the game down, for Stax to draw answers, acting like a pseudo card advantage engine. It does suck that you cannot finish your matches, so that's one big drawback of this build.

[ykpon]

That's how this deck works in my opinion:

a) you have Trinisphere
b) you have Crucible
c) you have Ghostly Prison (or Tabernacle-effect, which is nearly the same thing)
d) you have a lot of ways to destroy all the fucking lands via Armageddons, Smokestacks or Wasteland-lock.

That's what you have as a result:

a) they can play nothing
b) they can't do anything with stuff they have already resolved
c) all you need is to somehow finish them

I'm sure, everything else is just a support which is here to give you enough time for settung up real lock pieces: Trinisphere, Crucible and Prison. Obviously, i can be wrong, but personally i think i will never cut any of these cards until wizards will print something tutoring for these cards without any troubles or replacing them doing same things better.

[GGoober]

ykpon: That's the intention on adding Winter Orb, to be able to do what Stax needs to do: Get a lock piece, Geddon and win. The only real lock in the deck is Smokestack/Crucible or wastelock, which then seals the game for you once you draw the win-con.

Everything else is stalling for the 2 lock above. And to me, Winter Orb is another form of stalling. I've cut 1 3Sphere since WOrb does something similar but not as serious but at least you won't risk drawing multiple Spheres. 3Sphere is only really a lock after you armageddon or wastelock.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the intention of winter Orb, to act as a stall piece (in fact one that is both synergistic with the deck and one that is very disruptive).

[MTG-Fan]

Seriously guys, this deck is great, but I really don't like how it just scoops to CounterTop/Thresh/Merfolk with such regularity.

What are you guys playing in your sideboards to deal with those matchups, besides maybe Defense Grid which only functions as Trinispheres 5-8?

[GGoober]

how does this deck scoop to thresh/merfolks? I think it loses to green with Trygon but even then it should be favorable. If you're on the draw then it's not as good since they have Daze.

To beat those matchups, play Magus and Chalice for 1. If you're on the play that's good otherwise no. If you really need to beat blue. Go with Dutch Stax with 3-4 Chokes SB to destroy blue. I claim that my Winter Orb build has a much better Thresh matchup than the original build with Exalted Angel/Oring.

Winter Orb will really tax their cantrips. Merfolks would fare much better under Winter Orb, but I think against Stax, the WOrb build is amazing. They'll think twice about cantripping, and multiple WOrb + Ghostly Prison stops Trygon from swinging too happily. I think my main fear isn't Grip but trygon. I'd bring in 4 Orings against such a deck. By bad matchup I think you meant Trygon. Merfolks should be fine although they have a really fast clock. In both cases, Magus/Prison/WOrb effect should do the job.

[K_Rot_T]

Well the Problem is. First Round Vial really sucks, as it makes 3Sphere, Chalice and even your Winter Orb nearly Worthless, or at least makes them much weaker. Another Problem is Daze, you have to basicly pay 1 more for every card, because you cant afford to let them get countered. And if they have the god Hand with round 1 Vial and Round 2/3 Standstill, it's gg. Their Advantage is just too big. Also they play Wastelands by theirself, which slows us additionally.

Another Big Problem is Quasili Pridemage i think. He is played main in Zoo, so they have already Answers Mainboard and if you cant hit a fast Chalice on 1, they kill you right away. (Don forget, with Ancient Tomb, you normally deal about 6 Damage or more already to yourself).
Dutch Stax has Humility, which is great vs. Zoo (specially Pridemage), but we don't, so maybe play it side?

@ Sideboard:
I like Suppression Field real much, as it helps vs Vial, Wastelands (even it affects our own Wastes, but be save from opponents Wastes is more important),Manlans, makes their Fetches quite bad and even slows the Pridemage a little bit.
Depending on the Meta, Runed Halo might be nice too, as it additionally helps vs (targeted of course)Combo, Progenitus or whatelse.
Aura of Silence and Relic of Prognitus should be in the SB too, as they help vs. various Matchups.

@ Winterorb: Ofcourse its a real nice card, but dont forget it doesn't work tapped, when you really consider playing it with Tanglewire. Also dont forget, they might play Ice from Fire/Ice on it at the end of your turn. The Idea of Ghostly Quarter as Wasteland 5 or even 6, sounds nice, but maybe thats overkill, because all Decks atleast run some Basics, so they will normally just search for them, so i dont know, how much they really help, because the Basiclands come into play UNtapped, so WOrb doesn't help that much.

[Isei]

Hi there, Source!

I'm new to this forum, as my account was just recently validated, but I have been reading through this topic for some time, looking for ideas on this deck. I took an idea I found here to GenCon's Legacy Championship, and thought I would share my decklist and general tournament matchup results. This contains a near full report, so this is a long post.



DECKLIST:

--Lands
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Kor Haven
1 Savannah
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Mishra's Factory
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
5 Plains

--Creatures
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Knight of the Reliquary

--Artifacts
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack

--Enchantments
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Ghostly Prison

--Other Spells
4 Armageddon

--Sideboard
3 Suppression Field
1 Trinisphere
2 Aura of Silence
3 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
3 Sphere of Law


DISCUSSION OF BASICS:
Obviously, the most notable aspect of this deck compared to traditional GeddonStax is the addition of green for maindeck Knights and the sideboard. I think that many people who have tried this splash have misunderstood exactly how much is needed. I only have 6 reliable sources in the deck (4 /Moxes, Horizon canopy, Savannah), but I have rarely found myself wishing I could draw the green mana. Knight is also a card that you'll rarely want to play early; ideally, it comes down after you geddon, after you've searched out your Savannah with a Flagstones that bit the dust.

Other than that, I feel the stuff is pretty standard. Chokes are in to help against Landstill (a terrible matchup), Merfolk (which has alwayus given me a couple problems), and the rare MUC. Krosan Grip also helps against these, and additionally Dreadstill.

MATCHUPS:

Round 1: Combo (Belcher)
This is a really straightforward matchup: Cast trinisphere/chalice and win.

Game 1: Won the die roll, chose to play. Casted a turn 1 Chalice at 1. He managed to play through it a couple turns later and resolve the Belcher, but miscounted his mana and did not have the mana to activate. I had the O-Ring in my hand, played it, and simply beat him down with a factory a few turns later.
1-0
Sideboard: -3 Magus of the Tabernacle, -3 Smokestack, +1 Trinishpere, +2 Aura of silence, +3 Krosan Grip

Game 2: He was on the play, and decided to turn 1 Empty the Warrens for 10 Goblins. I was kicking myself for being an idiot and taking out the Maguses. So, I drew, put down an O-ring off a city and mox to buy me a turn. My life goes to 11. Next turn, I topdeck the Prison, and proceed to lock him out of the game with 3 chalices, at 0, 1, and 2.
2-0, 1-0-0

Round 2: Combo (Belcher)
Seeing as how the matchup I just outlined above is pretty typical of the deck, I'm not going to go into it again. The games were much shorter, and the result was the same.
2-0
4-0, 1-0-0

Round 3: Zoo
There was quite a bit of Zoo running around at this tournament, something I really wasn't looking forward to. I won the die roll.

Game 1: Played out a chalice for 1, and immediately saw his face go slightly sad. He played the turn 2 Pridemage, which I promptly O-Ringed, while he didn't have the mana open to sac it. Continue to Waste-lock him out of the game.
1-0
Sideboard: On the draw, I figure trinisphere isn't that impressive.
-3 trinisphere, +3 Sphere of Law

Game 2: He leads out with a Nacatl, which I answer with chalice for 1 again. Turn 2, He plays a 'goyf second turn, so I answer with a Ghostly Prison. On his turn, it seems he has fetched out all his basics when he plays another goyf, so I Armageddon on my turn. I soon play a Magus of the tabernacle and lock up the game.
3-0
6-0, 3-0-0

Game 4: Merfolk
This match was the longest I played at the tournament, taking the full hour plus a small extension for a judge ruling that had to go the head judge. As I stated before, this is a matchup I really do not enjoy playing. They seem to randomly win too often with Vials and counterspells. Luckily, I'm on the play again.

Game 1: I get the God Draw for the deck. I go turn 1 Trinisphere, turn 2 Smokestack, Turn 3 Crucible. He doesn't even get a chance to do more than hit me with a Mutavault a couple times. He still makes me show him the win in the form of a Factory, so the game still takes about 10 minutes total.
1-0
Sideboard: For some reason, I decided I don't want suppression fields in. I don't remember what I sided out for some reason, but +3 Choke went in.

Game 2: This was an extremely grueling game, taking about 50 minutes of play. Early game I answered theats fairly well, utilizing Armageddon and Maguses, and even having the Crucible in play, but never quite locking out the game due to Relic of Progenitus. I'm forced to break every one of his Standstills, so he's 12 cards up on me. Eventually, he manages to swing in for 9 at my life total of 14 by playing rushing river on both of my ghostly prisons. I go to 5. I have the mana to replay both prisons, bu tI have to do something about that. So, after I have a rather large Knight in play, I decide to drop a chalice at 3. He doesn't have any answers for this, and after a long time just sitting there staring at each other, he decks on the 5th turn of time. Perfect, if unnecessary, timing.
2-0
8-0, 4-0-0

Round 5: Bant Counter-top
Well, this matchup made me find another way to bluff the type of deck you're playing in magic. If you use a score sheet, you can do this artificially, even though it happened to me by accident. I still had the scores from my Zoo matchup on my sheet (I had 2 different ones, so the Merfolk totals weren't there), and he saw it. Since Zoo scooped both games to me, it looked like he went from 20-ish to 0 in one turn. So, my opponent thought I was playing some kind of combo. I win the die roll.

Game 1: I have to mulligan to 5 cards, and finally find a semi-keepable hand with a turn 1 chalice, turn 2 knight. I play out the chalice, surprising my opponent; I'm definately not playing combo. I put out the turn 2 knight and he's even more surprised. After spending a turn legend ruling my flagstones by searching with knight, making him a 6/6 after counting the Mox Diamond land, completely dwarfing his 3/4 goyf. He plays his second Tarmogoyf, and we stare at each other for a couple turns, neither wanting to attack into the other. After he counters my Crucible, though, I have to do something, so I throw down a 'geddon the turn after. This makes my knight a 10/10 and his goyfs are only 4/5's. A few swings and chump blocks later, I win the game.
1-0
Sideboard: -4 Ghostly Prison, +1 Trinisphere, +3 Choke
Game 2: I don't remember quite how this game went, but I do remember waste-locking him after playing Armageddon on his basics. Nothing too notable happened; any kind of goyf/thresh deck like this has a pretty similar matchup with white stax.
2-0
10-0, 5-0-0

Round 6: U/W/R Landstill
This is the matchup I have been dreading; I have never been able to find a way to beat landstill well. Hopefully, the suppression fields in the side will tax him enough to be able to do something.

Game 1: On the play again, I lead out with a chalice for 1, which gets countered. I try to resolve a crucible after I get daze backup out, still unsure of my opponent after I see a Volcanic Island and a basic island, and he plays a Counterspell. He resolves his own crucible, and I don't find a way out before Factories beat my face in.
0-1
Sideboard: -4 ghostly prison, -2 chalice, +3 suppression field, +3 choke.

Game 2: Somehow, I completely blank on siding in Krosan Grips, which might have easily cost me the game. I don't really remember specifics of this game, but it involved him resolving another crucible, and me not being able to answer it. Suppression field slowed him down a little bit, but just didn't do enough.
0-2
10-2, 5-1-0

Round 7: Bant Counter-top with Red Splash.
This is a must-win round for me.
Game 1: I mulligan to 6, and simply don't have enough steam to keep up with the deck. He beats me down with a goyf... or something. It's pretty much a classic game of this deck not drawing what it needs and getting its relevant spells countered.
0-1
Sideboard: -3 Tinisphere, +3 Choke I find Trinisphere to not be as useful against Bant, since they have a higher curve to begin with.
Game 2: I manage to resolve an armageddon with a Crucible in play, as he doesn't draw any counterspells this game. After the Armageddon, he simply cannot recover, and I soon waste-lock him.
1-1
Sideboard: No change.
Game 3: I resolve 2 Ghostly Prisons, which are quite good at holding his Trygon at bay. Then, I resolve an armageddon. He didn't see a Force all game, and never recovers.
2-1
12-3, 6-1-0

Round 8: Tempo Thresh
I decide to ID, even though a 6-1-1 or two is going to be cut from the top 8. My breakers were fairly good, so I'm confident.
12-3, 6-1-1

Top 8: 7th seed

For information on decks and some live coverage of the top 8, there's a post in another section of the forum: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14543

Round 1, single elim: 43 Land
I haven't tested nearly enough for my liking against this deck, but felt that it should be a good matchup for me.
Game 1: On the draw. He plays a turn 1 manabond, and dumps a nuce bit of land with the life already in hand. I play land-go for a while, as he ports one of my lands every turn. The crowd is enjoying his play quite a lot, as he dredges and cycles through about half of his deck by turn 5. Of course, I enjoyed the armageddon I dropped on turn 5. He never recovered and I took the game.
1-0
Sideboard: I didn't think that o-ringing the manabond after he'd gotten the use out of it would be too useful, so I decided to go for more prevention. -3 Oblivion ring, +3 Suppression field

Game 2: He gets another good start after manabond and gamble, and despite the fact that I have a field in play, he ports 3 of my lands every turn, and I simply can't draw into the mana to cast an armageddon. He ends up beating me down with lands.
1-1

Game 3: I keep a 2-geddon hand, and he never fully gets into the game. I drop a chalice at 2 and follow it with a 'geddon, a Knight, and the second 'geddon. It's over pretty quickly.
2-1
14-4, 7-1-1

Round 2: Dredge
I didn't really expect to see this matchup, and thought that maindeck Prisons and Magus would be enough. See the link above for the match.


SPOILER:


.....


....


...


..


.


I end up losing game 1 without playing a card, and game 2 I opted to chalice for 0 to prefent the turn 1 kill, which I believe he had again, judging from what he said. However, without crypts, and given the nature of Dredge, I couldn't come back and lost 0-2.

Finish: 3rd/4th place

Overall, I'm very happy with the performance of this deck. I didn't test Nomad Stadium quite enough, and think I may have been happier with another Horizon Canopy, as the Stadium seemed like a win-more, since you almost have to play Armageddon to get threshold, whereas the Canopy would have given me another green source and that card draw with crucible is so good.
Given the chance, I probably would have run a Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale or two, along with possibly upping the Armageddon count to 5 if I had the Ravages of war. Other than that, I'm EXTREMELY pleased with Knight of the Reliquary, and may change the split on creatures to 3/2 in favor of Knight if I can get my hands on a Tabernacle, since it can be searched for.

Special thanks:

This forum for giving me the idea of running Knights!

Matt for forcing me to test so many freaking times against threshold!

The guys at Yottaquest for helping me and giving suggestions!

My dice for winning me a ridiculous number of rolls in this tournament!

[_erbs_]

@Isei
Congrats on your finish and welcome to the source !!

Just a few questions
1. Was Kor Haven a big help ? If it was Ghost quarter which do you think had performed better ?

2. It seemed that Knight/mishra was your regular finisher as compared to magus, is the Knight really better as compared to Exalted Angel or Baneslayer Angel. Was the 3 casting cost of the Knight a big issue as compared to the casting costs of Exalted or Baneslayer Angel?

Was the Knight's land searching ability played a big factor while using him ?

[MTG-Fan]

Isei: I watched your match vs. the Dredge player on video, and of course, playing vs Dredge is pretty boring and straightforward: you either have hate or you don't, and he either has answers to your hate or he doesn't.

I'd be much more interested seeing the match you played with the 43 lands player. Did they tape that?

I think it's kind of funny that the 43 lands player actually had to face a Stax deck in the top8. I bet he didn't count on that. It's almost the dream matchup for Stax. Your main spell (Geddon) just wrecks them singlehandedly. :P

[TheMightyQuinn]

Game 1: Played out a chalice for 1, and immediately saw his face go slightly sad.

Aww. Poor guy.

Grats on the nice finish. Stax has long been one of my favorite archetypes.

[JamSpot]

Well done on your finish!

I recently switched from Geddon Stax to Dutch Stax but felt it lacked consistency and have decided to switch back to Geddon Stax.

Regarding the Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and a Ravages, which two cards would you look to cut to be able to include them in the deck? What other changes other than cuts would you make to enhance/ease their inclusion?

[Isei]

@Everyone: Thanks for all the congratulations!

@erbs:

1: Kor haven was a huge help. Since you're almost always at a l ower life total, as your offense comes down later, it can give you an uncounterable way to deal with creeatures such as Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf. I never found a point at which I wanted a ghost quarter, because by the time you want that, you'll almost always have found an Armageddon.

2:As I said, I was EXTREMELY impressed with the knight. Not only is he huge (I got him to a 13/13 at one point) but he offers the ability to search out and land you need. This can include the Kor Haven, Horizon Canopy, and if you really need the life gain, go for the Nomad Stadium (even though I'm probably cutting mine for another Canopy). Not only that, but the turn after you play him, you can use his ability when they attempt to daze your armageddon-- a play that most people end up missing.

I did test exalted angel for about 3 days. Despite the fact that I used to love her back in the days of Onslaught Standard, I didn't like her in this deck. She eats your mana for two turns, and offers nothing when she gets hit by a swords. Knight of the Reliquary at least gets you a Kor Haven when you need it. Also, though it's rarely relevant, Angel gets countered by a chalice for 0, which you often drop against decks that you might need the life gain against-- combo and dredge. Additionally, when you drop the Knight, alot of the time you have :1: floating from a 2-land, give you daze safety, too.

I haven't tested Baneslayer, but I feel that the 5cc will hurt you as far as casting it after an Armageddon goes-- they're going to have more time to recover and find an answer to her.

@MTG-Fan: No, the 43 land matchup was not taped, since Weinburg's first match took forever, and we were the 2v7 seed. If they had had a faster match, you would probably have been able to see game 3. I definately would have preferred to face another 43 land than that dredge matchup. :cry: Too much of this deck just wrecks 43 land though, not just the Armageddons-- Chalice for 2 is unanswerable, since they run Ancient Grudge as their artifact hate.

@Jamspot: I felt the same way about Dutch Stax. I need the fourth 'geddon to make the deck feel right.

To include the Tabernacle, I might just cut a land. I tested for a long time, and feel that 26 land is a good number, as opposed to the 24 land lists running around. However, since you can discard the Tabernacle to Diamond when you need it, I feel it would count as a half a land, so 25.5 is good with me.

I'm not really sure as far as the Ravages goes. I've messed around with the idea of cutting Magus altogether, since the Knight can search out the Tabernacle and become a 6/6 rather than the 2/6 magus. However, that does come down a turn slower, and that's way too relevant way too often.

The other cards that can be cut are either Ghostly Prison or Chalice of the Void, and the problem is, I don't want to cut either of them. Prison is best when you hit multiples of it-- if they have to pay 4 to attack, you can play armageddon when they hit 3 lands instead of 1 land. However, the same is true for chalice-- you absolutely love being able to chalice at 1 AND 2.

Even though I see a lot of people doing it, though, do NOT cut a Crucible or an O-ring. They are more essential than people seem to realize. Even though O-ring often sits in your hand, it is amazing to already have the answer to a Tarmogoyf or a Crucible. Along those lines, a turn 1 Crucible against some decks is almost as devastating as a turn 1 Trinisphere if you have the Wasteland. Overall, I'd lean towards attempting a 3-chalice list, though I would test the 3-prison one also.

Another thing I forgot to mention in my post was how TERRIBLE I found suppression field to be. I've always had a good matchup against Affinity without it, as a Trinisphere almost single-handedly locks them out of the game, and it just did not do enough against Landstill or 43 Land (even though I won the latter matchup anyway). I'm certainly going to cut it for Tormod's Crypts.

I'll be checking in more if you all have any more questions.

[Fuzzy]

Another thing I forgot to mention in my post was how TERRIBLE I found suppression field to be. I've always had a good matchup against Affinity without it, as a Trinisphere almost single-handedly locks them out of the game, and it just did not do enough against Landstill or 43 Land (even though I won the latter matchup anyway). I'm certainly going to cut it for Tormod's Crypts.

But the field isn't used vs. Vial and Deed?

Still in time, congratz for your finish.

[Isei]

But the field isn't used vs. Vial and Deed?


It seems bad against Deed to me. If they have the 3 mana to cast deed, they're probably only worried about the Chalices, MAYBE the crucible, depending on their hand. Also, with my sideboard (Krosan Grips), they normally pass the turn before blowing the deed, so you can blow it with your Grip before they get the chance to.

Against decks that run Vial, though, I feel you already have a good enough matchup. My deck runs Chokes, which almost single-handedly beats Merfolk, all you need is a Magus or a Prison. Other than that, it's used in what, Affinity? After you side in Auras and Grips, if you still have problems with Affinity, there's something wrong. Not to mention, they can almost always pay the 2 when you have a Trinisphere in play, since they're doing absolutely nothing else with their mana.

All in all, I feel the Fields are just not needed in the matchups they're good in, and not good enough in the matches you lose.

[_erbs_]

@Isei
Thanks on your inputs..

It seems that Knight is really doing well in your build. If so why not bump him to 3 or 4 and maybe replace the 3 mishra's with utility lands like tabernacle, maze of ith, etc.

Maybe a life from the loam engine could work ??

[MTG-Fan]

I don't think you ever want to cut any of the Mishra's Factories... they're the main recurring win condition with a Crucible in play.

I could see cutting the Magus for more Knights, and then adding a singleton Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale as a tutor target to emulate the Magus' effect.

[Al-ucard]

It seems bad against Deed to me. If they have the 3 mana to cast deed, they're probably only worried about the Chalices, MAYBE the crucible, depending on their hand. Also, with my sideboard (Krosan Grips), they normally pass the turn before blowing the deed, so you can blow it with your Grip before they get the chance to.

Against decks that run Vial, though, I feel you already have a good enough matchup. My deck runs Chokes, which almost single-handedly beats Merfolk, all you need is a Magus or a Prison. Other than that, it's used in what, Affinity? After you side in Auras and Grips, if you still have problems with Affinity, there's something wrong. Not to mention, they can almost always pay the 2 when you have a Trinisphere in play, since they're doing absolutely nothing else with their mana.

All in all, I feel the Fields are just not needed in the matchups they're good in, and not good enough in the matches you lose.

I like a lot the green splash idea I will test it soon.

What about Winter Orbs in side instead Suppresion Field?

[f|i[p]]

@Isei

Congrats on the finish, its been quite sometime since stax finished well in a big tournament. Comparing knights to angels, Although angels helps with life loss due to tombs and early threats, it often comes down as a 2/2 and makes it quite vulnerable.It also has a very high CC post geddon. Its actually nice to see that you have suggested knight to come out AFTER an armageddon (makes it really easy to cast rather than angel whom we have to morph and unmorph before we send the lands bye bye). Having knights after an armageddon makes us focus on the lock itself early on.

The green splash has been really important for stax, as it provides you with very good sideboard options. K. grip and choke which is one of the best that it provides.

Its actually surprising to see that you had problems vs dredge, as I never had problems with dredge at all. Most of the time I beat them without even boarding anything. I am actually just guessing that your opponent may just have had a crazy opening hand 1st and 2nd game hence the win over you.

I honestly never felt the need to board in grave hate against ichorid. The only reason I might actually board in grave hate is if the metagame calls for it. If the metagame consists of aggro loam variants as well as ichorid which can be a problem for stax as well deck.

As for grave hate there are tons of cards to consider, Tormods crypt and Loaming shaman are the first to enter my mind against decks that abuse graveyard. Crypts are good, but can be named via P. needle. Loaming shaman is quite slower bit is a threat in addition to the grave hate.

@winter orb
It was quite good in testing, its very good against landstill because of its taxing effects, If your deck runs into a lot of landstill variants, this may be a good sideboard option. Sometimes however it also hits you... Just to note, winter orbs have also good synergy with ghostly prison and Knight of reliquary. Winter orbs also give burn as well as enchantress a head ache...

[Isei]

@erbs + MTG-Fan:

I might bump the knight to 3, but probably won't ever bump it to 4. Magus still has a lot of benefits over Knight. First, if you don't have a plains (which actually happens often enough to matter), then you can't search at all. Second, it comes down "later," since you have to wait for summoning sickness to wear off. Lastly, the Tabernacle can just be hit by a wasteland. So, while good, it just doesn't replace magus.

As for life from the loam, it just seems really redundant with Crucible. You don't have that much space in the deck, and the Factories are necessary, in my opinion.

@Al-ucard:

I don't know. It's probably worth testing... I've even considered a blue stax build that runs Icy and the Orb. Another sideboard slot I'd like other people to test is Aven Mindcensor, though. It's interesting against Fetchlands and Tutors, particularly because no one really expects to see an instant speed response from this deck, not to mention being a win condition with evasion.

@f|i[p]:

Thanks again for the congrat's. Thanks for understanding the real reason I love Knight so much. Plus, you know, they're knights. The creature type.

The dredge matchup sorta surprised me too. I probably did misplay game 2. Game 1, there was obviously nothing I can do. It's just like the God Draw for this deck: only a free counterspell (or some crazy alternate mana source) can stop it. That being said, I still think crypts would be better in side than the Winter Orb, especially since I think I'm going to be seeing more dredge decks at the Mean Deck Open.

As far as crypts over shaman, I think we're okay with them putting in needles. Chalice at 1 comes down really often, so it'll often get countered, and you can pull them out game 3 (if they see one) to give them a nice dead card in hand, or side in Grips if you'd prefer.


Oh, just one one more thing to point out about Knight (and Flagstones) that surprised me: City of Traitors only gets sacrificed when a land card is "played," not "put into play." So, searching with Knight or Flagstones won't kill your City. Just make sure your local judge is ruling the same way before you do it.

[FancyMike]

Hi, I'm new to posting here but I've been reading this thread for quite a while and just went 4-0 last night in a 16 person event with Stax. Here's what I played:

Land:
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Kor Haven
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Savannah
6 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy

Creatures/Planeswalkers:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

Artifacts/Enchantments:
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Oblivion Ring

Sorcery:
3 Armageddon

Sideboard:
An assortment of random janky stuff that I didn't really use. This definitely needs work.

I don't have real detailed notes and played against some unusual decks but here are the matchups real quick:

Round 1: Elves
Ghostly Prison + Tabernacle + Armageddon did it's job. Sided in Magus of the Moat (I know it's bad) because elves can't fly.
1-0

Round 2: Slivers?
Didn't see much of this guys deck. Necrotic, Gemhide, and Sinew Slivers with Aether Vials. He didn't even counter anything. Chalice and Smokestack locked both games up with the Knight swinging to win.
2-0

Round 3: UGw Control
He plays a counter heavy deck with Goyf, Coatl, and Knight of the Reliquary with maindecked Winter Orb and Hierarchs. He shut me out quickly in game one, but couldn't find any hate in games two or three and Chalices for 1 and 2 established quick control. Last time I played against him with this deck he was running the Knights and we talked about putting it in my Stax list, so I ordered them and seeing the results here really encouraged me to use them. My favorite play from this match was blocking a large Coatl with the Knight, then saccing a plains to fetch up a second Flagstones, dumping three more land into the graveyard.
3-0

Round 4: Mono-W Kithkin? Tokens?
I'm not really sure what was going on here. Game 1 I wasted two Windbrisk Heights then won. Game 2 he never made a third land drop. The only cards I saw were the Heights, a Spectral Procession, a Knight of Meadowgrain, and an Enlightened Tutor for an Oblivion Ring.
4-0

I feel like I've won a lot of games so far with the Knight where the Magus wouldn't have cut it. As long as there's no graveyard hate the Knight is incredibly efficient, and it's nice to be able to swing with something that's got more than 2 power, it gives the opponent a lot less time to find an answer when I've only got a soft lock on the board. Fetching up the Tabernacle as needed is nice as well.

[ninja_attack]

Hi guys, i am new to this forum and like the way geddon stax plays, i have been considering the list with 2 knight of reliquary built on the last few pages, i just had one question....

When you put a soot counter on smokestack, does it then trigger to sac something, or since its your upkeep, do you control how they stack? The answer to this question would be very helpful, like what you guys are doing and hope to help evolve stax.

Thanks all

[MTG-Fan]

Hi guys, i am new to this forum and like the way geddon stax plays, i have been considering the list with 2 knight of reliquary built on the last few pages, i just had one question....

When you put a soot counter on smokestack, does it then trigger to sac something, or since its your upkeep, do you control how they stack? The answer to this question would be very helpful, like what you guys are doing and hope to help evolve stax.

Thanks all

When you put a soot counter on a Stack, you don't have to sacrifice anything. You will only have to sac something on your next upkeep. The trigger to force sacrifice only happens at the beginning of your upkeep, so the soot counter must already be on a Stack at the beginning of a player's upkeep to force a sacrifice.

So say you play a Smokestack on your 3rd turn. On your 4th turn's upkeep, you have the option to put a soot counter on it. If you do, you can continue with your 4th turn without sacrificing anything. Then, during your opponent's next upkeep, he is forced to sacrifice a permanent. Then, on your 5th turn, you must sacrifice a permanent during your upkeep, and you also have the option of adding another soot counter or not, but you will only have to sacrifice one permanent that turn, regardless of whether or not you increase the number of soot counters.

[ykpon]

Actually, i suppose it's incorrect. You should put triggers onto stack in the right order.


At the beginning of your upkeep, you may put a soot counter on Smokestack.

At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player sacrifices a permanent for each soot counter on Smokestack.

For the 2nd trigger number of soot ounters is checked on resolution of this trigger, so you can have to sacrifice a permanent for a counter you just have put on Smokestack if you want or if you misplayed.
If you put the 1st trigger onto stack and then the 2nd one, it works so: 2nd one resolves causing you to sac a permanent for each counter Smokestack has on it and then the 1st one resolves so you can choose to put one more counter if you want. Usually, this is the right order, becauses using it you sacrifice less permanents.
But you can use any order, because you control both abilities and they are triggered at the same time, so you can choose this way: put 2nd trigger onto stack and then the 1st one. So the 1st one will resolve first and you will get a choise whether to put a soot counter onto Smokestack. If you do, you will have to sacrifice permanents for all soot counters including the latest one on resolution of Smokestack's 2nd trigger. So if your plan is to sac as few permanents as possible, use another order if your opponent asks you about it: 1st trigger goes to stack, then the 2nd one.
Correct me if i'm wrong.

[Noman Peopled]

Nah, that's correct. If triggered abilities go on the stack at the same time (it doesn't actually matter when they trigger), their controller can choose the order in which they go on the stack freely. First the active player does this for all of his triggered abilities, than the nonactive player. (That means that the triggered abilities of the non-active player will always resolve first - and that he can adjust his order in the knowledge of the active player's doings.)
The usual upkeep trigger order for me is:

1: Magus upkeep
2: counter ability
3: sacrifice ability

That way, I first sacrifice stuff (floating mana from sacrificed lands for Magus or Factories - no downside to this since M10). Then I put a counter on Stack or not. And last, I pay for my creatures.
It doesn't really matter if you reverse 1 and 2 as they have no bearing on each other, but I have found it helpful to standardize and memorize this order nonetheless; of course, I'll vary it if needed.

But it's important to always put the sacrifice trigger on the stack last (= to resolve it first). That way, you sacrifice fewer permanents. And you can sacrifice creatures without paying for them.
If you want to do neither (say, you want to keep all your creatures and not add a counter to Stack), the order doesn't matter in the least - just remember to float mana from sacrificed lands, as it never hurts (barring Tomb).

[_erbs_]

@FancyMike
Congrats on your finish !!

@Isei
I might try your build but i was wondering have you ever tried using tanglewires and bottled cloister in place of orings in your g/w build ? But i don't know how you could fit them since in my deck the oring and the knight slots are the tanglewire and bottledcloister.

Currently im running mono w and removed the orings and replaced it with 4 tanglewires and 2 bottled cloister its been doing good in our playtest sessions.

I know an early gofy or other early threats will give me problems without the orings but the tempo boost i gain from tanglewires and bottled cloister is sometimes enough to give me the time i need to deal against my opponents threat.

I haven't tested them throughly since im still fond of using the merfolk :laugh: . But there's a another upcoming tourny in our place i might go stax but im hesitant since alot of pridemage and trygon predators are running wild in the meta.

I've also wanted to run winter orbs but if i push in more artifact mana but there are no more slots for it. I was thinking maybe icy manipulator might help but since it could also act as a creature control but kinda slow and costs alot as compared to orings.

@f|i[p]
hey, you join on the 29th ?

[Isei]

@FancyMike:

Congrats on your finish! I personally don't like only running 3 armageddon in the board. I would almost call your list Reliquary Stompy, as it doesn't seem to control the game as efficiently, but throws down beats very well.

@People discussing triggers:

APNAP order! Active players stacks any triggers he or she controls first, then non-active player stacks his or hers. That means Smokestack trigger will always resolve before Magus's on your opponent's turn. Additionally, you CAN choose to put a counter on Smokestack before you sacrifice. I have done this to sacrifice a Flagstones to search for my Savannah, just so I could cast Knight of the Reliquary a turn earlier.

@_erbs_:

The main reason I don't like Bottled Cloisters is a reason you mentioned: Pridemages and Predators. If they kill the Cloister on their turn, you DO NOT get your hand back. However, I've never found playing against Pridemages to be a problem, it just takes careful judgement and agressive mulligans.

About Tangle Wires: I only really like them when you have a chance to recur them with Welder or Transmuter. Other than with those, they don't seem to do enough.

About Winter Orb: Orb is still too iffy for me. First of all, I really love to chalice at two. It stops so many things you're scared of, like Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant. Second, though not too relevant, it costs more through Trinisphere. Lastly, it is WAY too symmetrical for my tastes. It hurts you almost as much as it hurts them, especially since their spells cost less. I'd prefer to just keep my Chokes in board, since they'd come in against almost all the same decks.


Also, my opponent from Round 7 messaged me, and gave me enough of a rundown of our match for me to remember it again. It's updated (or will be soon) in the post with the report.

[MTG-Fan]

APNAP order! Active players stacks any triggers he or she controls first, then non-active player stacks his or hers. That means Smokestack trigger will always resolve before Magus's on your opponent's turn. Additionally, you CAN choose to put a counter on Smokestack before you sacrifice. I have done this to sacrifice a Flagstones to search for my Savannah, just so I could cast Knight of the Reliquary a turn earlier.


But in that situation, wouldn't the Savannah come into play tapped that turn? How would it ever be advantageous to sacrifice to a Smokestack the turn you first put a counter on it?


Two other points:

1.) I hate to say it, but Knight might actually be worth running as a 4-of in place of Magus. I've been playtesting with a 2/2 split recently, and Knight just becomes ridiculous in many more ways than Magus. It often grows to epic proportions - I've had 10/10, 12/12 Knight in many games. It just ends the game very fast where Magus would only put them on a 10 turn clock. And EOT search for Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is a pretty good substitute for the Magus' ability. The only downside is that you can't stack Tabernacle effects as you could with multiple Magus.

2.) What is the proper number of Geddons to run? I am asking because it is possible to run up to 8 Armageddons (additional copies in the form of Ravages of War), and I feel that casting this spell is very crucial to winning with this deck. So lately I've been playing 4 Armageddon and 1 Ravages of war, giving me 5 copies to improve consistency. It might even be worthwhile running a 3/2 split to prevent Meddling Mage from interfering with your deck. What do you guys think? Is it worth running 1-2 Ravages in addition to Armageddon?

[f|i[p]]

@MTG-Fan

--This deck used to run a total of 6 geddon effects, having 2 additional ravages of war, it ends up as preference as to how many you should run in your version... I think 5 is a good number. 4 is ok..


--Magus --Magus and knight serves different purposes. Magus more or less serves as a defensive mechanism where as knights dont, they cant block a goyf early on and live. Knights cant tax creature based decks like goblins,merfolk,elves, ichorids and others. Knights cant also clear the board of creatures after an armageddon.. I think your confusing the purpose of magus in this deck.. Even if you say tabernacle can be fetched by knight. you should also know that knight can't fetch it right away, it will give the goblins or any swarm deck the turn they need to completely kill you..Magus has saved me countless times and I haven't really found a good replacement for his ability. In a metagame where singleton big creatures thrive, you can probably replace him with something else... but generally I'd keep him as a 3 of.

Don't be swayed by the cool factor of knights, Yes they are good, you must however remember,that they both have their purpose in the deck. They are totally different..

[tsabo_tavoc]

Congratulations to Isei and Fancymike!

Is it now a concensus that Knight > Elspeth (or similarly, GW > mono W)?

From some limited experience, I have usually hoped to see an Oblivion Ring to clear any threat came down before the lock. Many lists only run 2-3 MD, is 4 a more appropriate number?

[The Wes]

I think that all depends on what you have in your deck. MD humilities can just dominate some metas and in those cases Elsepth is hands down better.

[Isei]

@MTG-Fan

The Savannah untapped on the next turn, allowing me to still cast the Knight one turn earlier.

Also, I believe f|i[p] has the right take on Knight and Magus-- too much of a good thing makes the deck weaker.

@tsabo_tavoc

I tested Elspeth for a while and really didn't like it because of the bad interactions between it and Ghostly Prison (which doesn't stop creatures from attacking her). Sure, she can beat them down when they're completely locked out of the game.. but so could a Llanowar Elves. Hence, I cut her in favor of sturdier win conditions.. hence, the Knight. However, if you find an environment that suits Elspeth more, then by all means, she is extremely strong.

I would run 4 main Oblivion rings, but I can't find anything in the main to cut. It was crowded even before adding the Knights. The next thing to get cut is either a Chalice (which I really don't want to do) or a mana source (and I feel I have the correct number already).

@The Wes

Main-deck Humilities is a different deck called Dutch Stax, generally. I wouldn't consider running it in my build, if only for the fact that Magus loses his abilities.

[ninja_attack]

So, how is the Landstill matchup... for reference, i am using Isei's list with the change of no supperssion field and some graveyard hate.. maybe crypt... i really like the knight, i feel as if in the landstill matchup, if you can throw down chalice at 1, then geddon early, with knight on the table, then it should be enough pressure to win, but i'm having trouble understanding this matchup more in depth... Could some stax vets provide me with some guidelines and whatnot, as some landstill build run cunning wish into fracturing gust, which seems like a blowout... also, in a more controllish meta, could i run -1 ghostly prison +1 o ring?

Thanks

[Isei]

@ninja_attack:

I've pretty much just accepted that Landstill is a bad matchup. If you can resolve a Crucible, your life is a LOT better, and you have a very good chance at the matchup. Other than that, Smokestack is almost useless, since (at least in g1) you have no way to deal with their Crucible. Your only chance to make it work is recurring your own Flagstones.

After sideboard, you have Krosan Grips and Chokes. You'll want to try to Armageddon away the basics, just so you are able to Wasteland the rest of the lands. Also, with a Trinisphere in play, it's extremely difficult for them to EE for zero to get rid of your chalices (since they'll almost certainly have to use colored mana to play it... 8 colorless sources isn't usually enough to straight up cast it).

If the Standstill comes down, you can very easily fight them with your own man-lands. Personally, I often hold back Wastelands against them, hoping they'll drop the Standstill, and I can take out the Mishra's and swing in with my own. Again, you'll really really want to have your own Crucible out, and using a Grip on theirs in response to the Standstill is devastating in all too many cases.

This isn't as organized as I'd like, just a lot of general ideas on the matchup, but I hope it helps.


As a side note, is anyone else having problems beating Dredge w/LED? I can never seem to get the Trinisphere early enough, and my Prisons never quite cut it, due to chain of vapor. Even with the Crypts in sideboard, I still have problems. Any suggestions?

[_erbs_]

@Isei
In my old mono w geddon stax build i have 5 SB cards for an Ichorid deck (1 relic of progenitus, 2 tormod's crypt, 2 sphere of resistance).

Against any combo deck i felt its like your up against luck. If they could combo out before you lay down your defenses or your the 1st to lay down some sort of taxing effect to them.

I recalled in one of my previous tourny's using geddon stax i was up against ANT, 1st turn i dropped a trinisphere my opponents conceeds. On his turn he combo out on his 1st turn. And on our last game i was lucky to have landed a 1st turn sphere of resistance then everything followed for the win.

My old sb list
4 sphere of law
2 sphere of resistance
2 tormod's crpyt
1 relic of progenitus
3 oblivion ring
3 meta call

I tried running your list right now, it was my 1st time running a non mono w stax. I just changed several parts though (-1 flagstone +1 trinisphere, -1 nomad stadium +1 horizon canopy).

This is just my very early assessment. The Wg build playing style is like the old w stax thats very dependent on its 7 cards and needs to cast trini or chalice in the earn turns to atleast don't get behind your opponents threats.

I'm really missing the tangle wires and bottled cloister. Before even when i don't get to cast trinisphere/chalice earn turns or its countered/destoryed, when tanglewire hits the board i could somehow get the tempo i lost.

Oring at times is a miss or hit card when its get stifled or destroyed. But Kor Haven is a nice addition.

The horizon canopy is not bad but very very slow as compared to bottled cloister in terms of drawing cards. Im assuming that thats his primary role over his colored mana.

With regards to bottled cloister getting destroyed i guess its just okay for me. If you looked at your hand and board components they are almost similar your hand is like a body double of your permanents expect for spells which stax has a lower count as compared to permanents. Basically what im saying is if horizon's canopy primary role is a draw engine eventhough your land gets destored aslong as you could get the answer you need its a fair trade.

I think that is quite similar to what bottled cloister do with abit of plus and minus and is a faster draw engine as compared to horizon canopy.

But the main debated for me with them is that:
• Both of them can be easily eliminated.

Bottled Cloister
+ faster draw engine.
+ can function alone.
- lost cards if it gets destroyed.
- can be countered.

Horizon Canopy
+ can't be countered.
+ is recurrable via crusible.
+/- one turn faster since its combo card is crusible 3cc as compared to 4.
- needs crusible to able to function as a draw engine.
- ouch land.

As for the Knight when i was able to cast him he was more of a win more rather than a utility. The land search ability is okay but you wouldn't need it since more or less before he lands you already have your wasteland. The kor haven and horizon canopy are the only ones he could fetch when he gets on the board unless your going to up the count to 3 or 4 but what would remove ? Oring ?.

For me the thing i really liked about him is that i could muscle my way through my opponents creatures as compared to the old build in where i need to clear the board before i could attack with mishra or magus. As expected the knight almost felt like an exalted angel swinging and your opponent can't asnwer her flying ability. But the angel is more fragile as compared to the knight.

I will test your list more and maybe i could add or suggest something to improve it.

For now i the oring seems to be a miss or hit card mainboard. Maybe additional knight and powder kegs or utility lands. Maybe more threats...

[f|i[p]]

@ninja_attack

Landstill is a bad match up. Stand stills and pernicious deeds can be quite annoying,.They have their own crucibles as well. THe other version of landstill which runs elspeth is even more annoying. The only way I see stax winning this is if we actually attack their mana base. Krosan grips and chokes will help a lot in this match up. Armageddon and chokes are what your actually looking for in this match up. There are different branches of landstill now a days which makes their win condition faster.

@Isei

As I said, I never really had much problems with ichorid since we really have a lot of cards that answers ichorid main deck...but maybe it was just luck for me as well.. But I constantly win against ichorid without even having worries about the match up, hence no grave hate on my side...

Although I ran 4 magus main deck and ofcourse 2 exalted angels long ago..

Just my assessment

Chalice for zero stops LED on its tracks, Chalice for 1 stops their broken plays like breakthrough.

Trinisphere makes them quite slow which will buy you a few turns to be able to drop more pieces.

Ghostly prison stops the horde which means they would have to rely dread return or flashback removal or perhaps chain of vapor as you said.

Magus of the tabernacle shuts down all the tokens. Additionally you can sacrifice magus to get rid of Bridge. You can also sac mishra to magus if you don't feel like sacrificing magus.

Wastelands do help in this match up

KotR can fetch your tabernacle -- if you have them. MAze of ith if you run them for singleton creatures via dread return.

Chain of vapor? that means they either have it on their opening hand or they are actually drawing cards instead of dredging which means you have bought some turns.

I actually run EE on my side instead of gravehate, It might actually hurt me at times but It helps me get around some decks and mass remove annoying cards . Played for zero can help against tokens. Its quite versatile. You can have kegs at this spot. OR even wrath of god which kills every creature even progenitus.

Runed halo might be worth a trying as well.

Just to actually pull you out of the green splash, I also considered having a black splash long long ago, just for sideboard cards. Extirpate was my card of choice. Yes It can be bothersome having chalice for 1. But I have always loved wasting and extirpating non basics on thresh and landstill. I remember there was a stax deck who had a black splash that made it to top 8 which had cranial extractions on the side. I am not saying black is better. I actually think green is the best splash color for us now. Just because of Krosan grips,knight and chokes. But a hint of black might help, Cranial would be able to completely remove Dread return or bridge. Which leaves them with one less win condition. This is not hard to do considering you have mox D. Im just throwing out ideas.. I am not saying it will work.

[Isei]

@_erbs_

Yeah, I guess I have been pretty unlucky.. 2 of my 4 game losses were to an effective turn 1 kill.


As far as the rest of it goes, I wasn't attempting to compare Horizon Canopy to Cloister, really. I just think that Cloister is too big of a risk with all the artifact hate they're going to side in, not to mention the fact that I'd be pressed for space to put it in. Since Horizon Canopy takes up a land slot (and provides green mana, at that), I think it's the better choice. Also, it does simply cycle, even if you don't have the crucible.

It seems that you're using Tangle Wire the way that I use Oblivion Ring, too. However, when I play it, I have the luxury of setting up first while a Tarmogyf beats at me, and then play the Oblivion Ring after I have lock pieces down.

I do like the Sphere of Resistance suggestion though, I'll see if I can pick them up.


@f|i[p]

I agree with most of what you said, just a couple small points...

You can't sacrifice Mishra's to Magus. Magus states that the creatures "have" the ability, and since it triggers at the beginning of upkeep, you do not have priority before the trigger stacks, hence, you can't make Mishra's a creature.

Knight of the Reliquary will almost always be too slow to fetch a Tabernacle, it can't happen until turn 3/4 (unless you have double mox diamond).

It seems good opponents try to mulligan into the Chain of Vapor, just so they can get past the Prison or Chalice at 0.

Runed Halo doesn't keep away Zombies.

I know that this should be an easily winnable matchup, I might have just been really unlucky recently. I, too, considered running black for Extirpates, but I am EXTREMLY reluctant to run black in addition to green, simply because it would probably wreck the manabase. As far as taking out green entirely goes, I love Knight and Choke too much to do that.

I might try running EE or Powder keg.. most likely the Keg, since Trinisphere messes with the EE. Maybe Wraths...

Thanks for the brainstorm. I've also considered trying City of Solitude in side... and ideas on that?

[f|i[p]]

@f|i[p]

You can't sacrifice Mishra's to Magus. Magus states that the creatures "have" the ability, and since it triggers at the beginning of upkeep, you do not have priority before the trigger stacks, hence, you can't make Mishra's a creature.

Runed Halo doesn't keep away Zombies.

I might try running EE or Powder keg.. most likely the Keg, since Trinisphere messes with the EE. Maybe Wraths...

Thanks for the brainstorm. I've also considered trying City of Solitude in side... and ideas on that?

Well I actually didn't know about not being able to respond to the magus trigger. But come to think of it your right. I stand corrected. I never really sacrificed mishra to magus ever anyway. I was just thinking of ways to get rid of bridge.In the end, you'll eventually end up having to sacrifice magus if need be.

Runed halo can't name tokens, but it can name the archangel, or the troll who can be gigantic. Its just a brainstorm since it has more uses, like naming goyfs, progenitus and other cards.

Yeah, knight is slow since he has a different purpose and was not really meant to hold off swarm type decks, but I was just pointing out that, he can help too if given the chance.

Yeah.. trinisphere can actually mess with EE but I like the fact that its actually faster in some other scenarios(not ichorid) than keg. I also love the fact that you can ramp EE's cc to avoid Counter balance.

Sorry I'm just being too general about sideboard options.

For ichorid, kegs would be a lot better, As you can drop and sacrifice. No bad synergy with trinisphere.

I'm just throwing out idea's since I never really had a bad experience with ichorid. I guess you'd have to mulligan aggressively against them as well.

Actually, I guess its also because Magus of the tabernacle and G. Prisons tend to come out a lot when I play stax.

@a hint of black just for the sb.
I actually didn't suggest that you replace the green splash. It was actually in addition to green. But I will have to explore on this myself. As the only real major problems I encountered was actually P.deed, landstill and at times single FAT creatures smashing face early. Green actually helps against these decks already.

@city of solitude
That is actually an interesting sideboard option. I remember a time when we used to have Defense grids on the side. City of solitude is actually tons better than grid.. ofcourse grid may come a little earlier, but city of solitude can actually stop counter spells, Sensei, vials and probably more(during your turn ofcourse).

Has anyone encountered problems facing natural order? I have never played against it yet since I actually dropped stax for a long time because of Rock and landstill in my metagame.

[_erbs_]

Originally Posted by f|i[p]

Has anyone encountered problems facing natural order? I have never played against it yet since I actually dropped stax for a long time because of Rock and landstill in my metagame.

I've played against my old deck progenthresh sadly i don't have it anymore huhu... and i have to say that its a game of luck or if you want to be sure an agressive mulligan to trinisphere or ctov is a must if your on the play. Or hope that your opponent doesn't drop a first turn noble heirarch if your on the draw.

With the 1st turn heirarch trinisphere isn't that effective and you have to lock them really fast via smokestack or drop 2-3 ghostly prison to hold progenitus atleast.

An early trygon predator hurts like hell its almost GG if you don't draw a oring to stop it.

I found that sphere of resistance helps aswell to slow them down since such decks run 10-12 lands only the rest are fetchlands which doesn't produce mana.

I was having a hard time getting green mana aswell still using Isei's mana config -1 flagstone -1 nomad stadium +1 canopy. I think adding 2 more savannah's is need. Without using any green SB cards the green mana mainboard is okay but when you side in green cards they sit very long in your hand before you could cast them at times the game is over before you could cast it.

The cards i bored was: 3 choke 2 sphere of resitance. -1 crusible -2 armageddon -1 trinisphere -1 oring


So far in my testing the deck is doing okay Isei's list you just have to adjust your playing style to it. Running orings and tanglewire was totally a different story i was triving on tempo before as compared to now you just sit and wait for your opponents threats to land and respond to it, unlike before the decks plays agressively but the win con is slow as compared with the knights hahaha. A fair trade i guess.

As for the horizon canopy the draw engine mechanism is really very very very slow. You need atleast 3-4 working mana meaning to give you space to pay upkeep no ouch in tapping, a colored mana open aswell to work with before you could make the canopy draw engine online. Making the canopy 2 pcs made the green mana much easier i guess but as for draw engine its still sub optimal. It feels like its a cycle land.

I don't know if it feel different for you Ise's since you running 26 lands as compared to my 25.

Looking at my current mana config it feels like its to fragile to wastelands and other threats.

Current Land Config
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
3 mishra's factory
4 wasteland = contemplating if i'll make it 3 to add more colored mana.
2 horizon canopy = i want to drop 1 and add 1 savannah or forest
2 flagstone of trokair
1 savannah
1 kor haven = better than i expected
5 plains

Any suggestions to make it more stable as possible and will don't encounter green mana problems aswell.

Just wondering would Krosan Tsuker or Solemn Simulacrum or Eternal Dragon help in getting the colored mana then act as a win con if needed?

As you've said there is no more space for bottled cloister stax shell is really really tight. Without the tanglewires orings are a must.

I haven't faced decks which packs landy (wasteland, rishadans and bloodmoon). I feel the mana config is much more fragile as compared to before. Before in the old list when my turbo lands gets destroyed i can really feel the heavy casting cost of the deck.

____________________________________________________________


Just a question where do you actually side in krosan grips ? i never felt the need to side it in since i have 3 orings main already.

[f|i[p]]

@ erbs

We actually suggested the green splash when KotR wasn't printed yet. It was meant just to help pack the sb of krosan grips and chokes. The main purpose of K. grips was for P. Deed and Phyrexian dreadnaught. Pernicious deed has always been my main concern. 4color landstill and rock used to have these as a 4 of. Dreadnaught was quite popular back then.

@the mana base

It has always been clunky , thats why when I play against stax using a different deck, I know hitting the 2 mana lands really hurt the deck. Splashing a color always puts the mana base at risk. But it also helps by giving us good sideboard option as well.

@sideboard

Another good side sideboard card would be compost. If the metagame has lots of discard and black decks. I'm not sure if this would help against ichorids speed. I'm sure however that it would draw you into tons of cards against ichorid..

[Nicholas Gulledge]

Sorry if I missed it earlier in this thread, but has there been much discussion on the list that Geoffrey Siron placed first with in a recent Legacy event? It seems pretty standard/solid, but I'd be interested to hear what others feel about the design he went with.

For reference:

Mainboard:

1 Academy Ruins
1 Nomad Stadium
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
1 Tundra
4 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Wasteland
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Armageddon
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Trinisphere

Sideboard:

4 Suppression Field
4 Defense Grid
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Exalted Angel
1 Tormod's Crypt

[Isei]

It was only a 32 person tournament, and the meta (or top 8, at least) seemed to be very aggro-heavy. That being said, I'm not particularly impressed with the list. Only 3 Armageddons in main, 1 Academy Ruins with 1 blue source and 1 EE... it just seems bad, overall.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

My land base for stax currently is

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
3 Flagstones
5 Plains
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kor Haven
1 Gargoyle Castle
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Savannah

Ive been testing Gargoyle Castle, and its really not all bad. Sure is cost :5: mana to activate, but The Gargoyle Blocks Predator all day. Its a guaranteed flyer late game every turn (/ Crucible). Ive blocked Tombstalker with is several times until I drew the lock. It taps for :1: colorless mana (which is a plus!). I played the deck in the Mean Deck open, and 3 other tournaments, and I have been 4-2, 5-1-2, 5-1-2, and 4-2, and I would have to say The Castle has flat out won me at least 15 of the 36 games, not counting the added damage each game where it benefited me. I'm a believer! And I want you to be a believer too!

And I do run 61 cards, and that is my preference, which it always has been, thats why the 27 lands (plus TTAPV doesnt produce mana).

[_erbs_]

Gargoyle Castle seems nice but its like your 3rd mishra's factory. I was discussing with a friend of mine who plays stax aswell maybe cutting the factories might improve the mana base abit since its primary role is just a blocker all day via crusible of the worlds. (this is with the knight of the reliquary build).

[Arsenal]

Due to the awesomeness of Factory's +1/+1 pump, I wouldn't run less than 4. However, running Gargoyle Castle as a 1-of seems... good. Like, I don't know why, but I feel as though Stax should run it. Extiprate/Runed Halo/Pithing Needle/etc. on Mishra's Factory isn't the end of the world, but it sure is annoying and will slow down our kill.

[_erbs_]

Due to the awesomeness of Factory's +1/+1 pump, I wouldn't run less than 4. However, running Gargoyle Castle as a 1-of seems... good. Like, I don't know why, but I feel as though Stax should run it. Extiprate/Runed Halo/Pithing Needle/etc. on Mishra's Factory isn't the end of the world, but it sure is annoying and will slow down our kill.

Its awesome as a attacker or blocker ? If you think about it loosing the factories is not so big. They are your 2nd win condition or 3rd if you're running the knight of the reliquary build.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

Its awesome as a attacker or blocker ? If you think about it loosing the factories is not so big. They are your 2nd win condition or 3rd if you're running the knight of the reliquary build.

Well, with KotR, Unless you have CotV for 1, he dies to StP, PtE, and Unless you have CotV for 2, he dies to Edit's, Smother, and every other removal spell in the format (primarily). Magus is good, because it pins the opponents lands, as do the Ghostly Prisons, which Is why I'm running 4 MotT, instead of 3. It may cost 4, but it is very important that you have one of these against a lot of matchups, and I didnt see it as often when I ran 3. Mishra's Factory is great, and I don't think I would drop it, but The Gargoyle Castle, is very good as a 1 of, which means you dont see it every game, but Like I said in the previous post, It blocks Trygon Predator all day! its like a Serendib Efreet, but you do not take 1 every turn, and with CoW, its a guaranteed 3/4 Flier every turn.

[Lammina]

Hi everybody!

I had tested the KoTR with green splash, and this build are very solid and apresented many good results.

IMO, the builds with use 3 Mishra, try cut one and put a Nantuko Monastery or a Gargoyle Castle... is a HUGE help against fliers the last one, and a great beater the first one...

Now, a question: what is better (and why): City of Solitute or Choke?

My sideboard is:

4 Defensive Perimeter
3 City of Solitute
3 Exalted Angel
3 Supression Field
2 Sphere of Law

What you think?

Thx,

Lammina!

[Tacosnape]

Apologies for one-linery, but what's Defensive Perimeter?

[Kuma]

If I had to guess, I'd say he's talking about Defense Grid.

Also, Choke or City of Traitors? Seems like a false dilemma. That's like saying Tropical Island or Tarmogoyf.

I'm guessing you meant to say City of Solitude.

[Lammina]

If I had to guess, I'd say he's talking about Defense Grid.

Also, Choke or City of Traitors? Seems like a false dilemma. That's like saying Tropical Island or Tarmogoyf.

I'm guessing you meant to say City of Solitude.

Sorry.

That´s right, Defense Perimeter = Defense Grid.

And the right is "City of Solitude"....


Thx,

Lammina

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

I haven't tested CoS, but with the results of Choke have practically given me the blue matchup. The selling point of the deck is to lock the land, because they need it for so many different things, Choke just stops the mana. If all they have islands, Ghostly prison Shuts the creatures off, Magus just nukes their creatures, and suppression field kills the abilities. Choke is like an Armageddon against the blue player. Has anyone tested City of Solitude? How is it?

BTW,
0. Mox Diamond
1. Play Ghostly Prison
2. Play Knight of the Reliquary
3. Armageddon.
4. Get the Plains from Flagstones
5. Tap Knight.
6. Search for Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.

This makes me believe the Land belongs in the deck, because it definately is not hurting You, and as a plus, Knight searches it out for you.

[_erbs_]

Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is really a nice card but the deck is much tight already. Normally the land count for the W or Wg Stax is around 24-26 or 27 even and with such a high land count utilities are lost like trinisphere, cotv or oblivion ring, etc.

The thing which i don't like about tabernacle is that it has no mana, thats why i think kor haven is much better. And as for the 3rd mishra's becoming a Nantuko Monastery or Gargoyle Castle i would still pick mishara over them.
For the reasons:
1. Mishra is much easier to activate as compared to both
2. Monastery requires green which at times is hard to find.
3. 5 mana is still 5 mana, yes gargoyle castle produce you an army of gargoyles and could block trigon predators which is one of the bane of this deck so is pridemages. But also take into account that you are playing 4 geddon and with no crusible in play the gargoyle castle costs alot if you need a blocker early on. And 5 mana plus 1 land for a 3/4 flyer seems not a fair trade maybe if its activation cost is 3cc and you don't need to sac the land i would have considered it.
4. The only thing i could find it useful just maybe is in the SB for decks that packs tons of removal from 1cc to 3cc making cotv for 1 insufficient to protect KoTR and the mishra's can't get through aswell.

As for City of Solitude vs Choke i would pick choke over it 90% of the time. City of Solitude is almost like Defense Grid which is easier to cast over it.

[_erbs_]

a new possible toy for stax and could maybe replace smokestack...

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/?page_id=1523

World Queller

[f|i[p]]

I actually think he does not fit at this point.The problem is that you will usually end up naming land or nothing. Players don't usually run artifacts and enchantments like we do. What they usually have are creatures and lands and spells. You can't really name creatures because, you'll end up sacrificing itself or another important creature (which we only have a few of). He may be a good way to block something small and still be able to constantly name land. I think however that creature is the usual thing we would want to name, and there's really nothing much to sacrifice on our part. @ 5 cc , he is also quite slow.

[Wyrath the Great]

a new possible toy for stax and could maybe replace smokestack...

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/?page_id=1523

World Queller

That card is much better in MWC. Particularly with the new land, Emeria, the Sky Ruin, to give the deck tremendous reach.

[Noman Peopled]

Man, here I was looking forward to trying out some new tech with Defensive Perimeter :D

Anyway, I haven't tried City of Solitude but what does it actually do that Defense Grid and 3spheres can't? I don't like how all it does is protect your from counters at no synergy with the rest of the deck. Granted, you could argue that that's still better than having to turn it on like Grid but Grid does the same early on, one turn earlier, and never suffers from color screw.

Considering that the KotR build has more creatures and recent talk of cutting down on manlands, does Thorn of Amethyst start to look more appealing again?
As an aside, I think Tabernacle should be in there if you're playing KotR. I mean, with three KotR, a Tabernacle and two Magi, you have the same chances to land a Tabernacle effect as with two KotR and four Magi.
Of course, there's gy hate and removal to be accounted for so that strategy may turn out much worse in rl than it does in the abstract. Although if your opponent doesn't have removal right away, KotR is the better Magus because removal won't touch it. Nonbasic hate will, though.

I did test Gargoyle Castle. I didn't like it much, simply because it's so expensive and we have 8 Smokestack/Geddon, plus CoT and Wastes. I just could activate it only when I already had gotten to the mid to lategame, at which point I should either be able deal with flyers via Stack, LD/taxing, or O-Ring, or have already been raped by Trygon Predator.
It did steal a few games, though. It's not bad. I will test some more.



As for World Queller (included for convenience):

Worl Queller
Creature - Avatar
3WW
4/4
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may choose a card type. If you do, each player sacrifices a permanent of that type.

World Queller is certainly intruiging, and makes me want to try Thorn even more. I'm okay with sacrificing lands, but that'd require a taxing effect alongside it vs creatures. Of course, you could also just recur a Factory every turn. For the record, I would run a full set of those for testing :D
Seems pretty expensive, though. Four mana I can conceivably have t2, most often t3-t4 unless I kept real crap (I beat Belcher once with two Chalices t1 and a Smokestack t2 - I'd still have lost otherwise). Five mana, two white, is much harder, and the body is significant only if the effect works out.
It would be another card that can deal with anything on the table, though. There are things I'd happily trade my Prisons or extra 3sphere/Crucibles for.

The lack of other relevant abilities sucks as much as having to wait a full turn, though. It should be noted that this kid can kill PWs no questions asked, which is relevant against a few decks running Elspeth.
Oh ... also, he's good with Elspeth against creatures. Still five mana ... damn.

It's no Smokestack if only cause it can be killed more frequently and cost more. On the flip side, it's completely immune to Trygon Predator and dodges EE/Deed nicely unless you have nothing in the way of LD beforehand.
I don't even know if he's better than Worldstone Gargoyle, which shuts of EE/Deed and block Trygons all day, but I think it warrants some testing.

[Skeggi]

As for World Queller (included for convenience):

Worl Queller
Creature - Avatar
3WW
4/4
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may choose a card type. If you do, each player sacrifices a permanent of that type.


This card may get me to play Stax again. It looks strong, and it looks like fun. It might enable some sort of Stompy/Stax hybrid.


;380373']You can't really name creatures because, you'll end up sacrificing itself or another important creature

May I point out, that spoiled as is, you can name any cardtype, also 'Instant' or 'Tribal'. You won't have to sacrifice this creature if you don't want to. Alongside Elspeth, you can safely name creature and turn it into The Abyss, but without the targeting. Pretty awesome.

[ClearSkies]

The problem with Thorn is that it raises the mana cost for the other lock pieces too much while doesn't do much to creatures. If you just wanted to raise mana cost of spells to slow everything down, Sphere of Resistance would be much better here.

However, unlike its Vintage version, Sphere of Resistance/Thorns in Legacy Stax hurts itself as well due to lack of Mishra's Workshop (and other Fast Mana)

[f|i[p]]

May I point out, that spoiled as is, you can name any cardtype, also 'Instant' or 'Tribal'. You won't have to sacrifice this creature if you don't want to. Alongside Elspeth, you can safely name creature and turn it into The Abyss, but without the targeting. Pretty awesome.

I understand that you can name any card type...I know how to read...You can even choose not use its triggered ability. The problem with this, is that to get use of its full potential, we would usually want to name something that we have excess of or a card type that the opponent has that we don't.

If your not using its ability its a 5cc 4/4 creature.

With elspeth it becomes a 2 card combo. Which is not necessarily bad.But slow. .Yes it might be able to force the opponent to sacrifice a problematic
permanent which is good.

However you'll just have to think, what permanents give us the most problems?

I don't think this card belongs to stax, perhaps some other control or prison shell that could actually use it to its potential.

[K1LO]

Some testings showed me, that the Wg version pretty much loses against any form of Elf-Decks due to Priest of Titania, Elvish Archdruid and the like. I´m going to test an additional small red-splash for Firespout out of the SB, which would also work against Gaddock Teeg, compared to Humility, Wrath of God, Cursed Totem ... . Any other suggestions to improve these matchups?


Greetz, K1LO

[Zenzei]

Hi,

I'm new user and I'm certainly not a stax (or legacy) expert yet as I just recently found this site out and started to focus on this format. That said, this particular deck interests me quite a bit and with Zendikar cards being spoiled I wonder if this one could be of any use in stax:


http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/zendikar/il8vdg7ouz_EN.jpg

With all the lockdown cards in stax, it seems to me Luminarch Ascension could be a good win condition after opponent has been denied the attack phase, which the combinations of magus/prison/geddon does pretty well. In addition ascension is easy to cast, doesn't care about critter removal and kills ultra fast once it goes off.

[Noman Peopled]

It's a nice card but won't be played for the same reason Hoofprints wasn't; it takes forever to come online, and does nothing to further your game-plan. Even Exalted Angel, which could semi-lock aggro, is usually excluded now. With no draw engine, we need to maximize the impact of individual cards, as well as the speed at which they impact.

Ascension is only awesome if you have locked your opponent out of the game pretty much completely (at which point you could win with Calciderm). Or if you can land it early and ride a few damage-free turns which seems like a very bad plan - you should be playing lock pieces at that stage.

[Arsenal]

I did test Gargoyle Castle. I didn't like it much, simply because it's so expensive and we have 8 Smokestack/Geddon, plus CoT and Wastes. I just could activate it only when I already had gotten to the mid to lategame, at which point I should either be able deal with flyers via Stack, LD/taxing, or O-Ring, or have already been raped by Trygon Predator.
It did steal a few games, though. It's not bad. I will test some more.

This pretty sums up my feelings on Gargoyle Castle as a 1-of in Stax (non-Humility version) and why it should be included. It certainly won't lose you any games as the colorless mana it produces isn't a drawback whatsoever, but it will certainly win you games you had absolutely no business in winning.

[ClearSkies]

Also, if you are playing with Ancient Tombs, the Tombs going to prevent you from getting counters as well. It is hard for Stax to do well in the early game without Tombs.

[Arsenal]

Acsension seems better in MWC/Quinn. Same goes for that 4/4 Stax guy.

[K1LO]

That is my current decklist:

Maindeck:

04 Ancient Tomb
04 City of Traitors
04 Wasteland
02 Mishra´s Factory
01 Kor Haven
05 Plains
03 Flagstones of Trokair
01 Savannah
01 Plateau
01 Windswept Heath

04 Mox Diamond
04 Chalice of the Void
04 Trinisphere
04 Ghostly Prison
04 Crucible of Worlds
03 Oblivion Ring
03 Smokestack
03 Armageddon
01 Ravages of War
03 Magus of the Tabernacle
01 Knight of the Reliquary
---------------------------
60 total

Sideboard:

01 Oblivion Ring
02 Krosan Grip
03 Choke
03 Firespout
...

I´m not decided yet between Kor Haven or The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale in my Maindeck, but really like the fact that Kor Haven produces Mana and stops Trygon Predator. I´m still playing the 4th City of Traitors for a faster Chalice of the Void and other lock-pieces. The singleton Windswept Heath was added because of a block-situation in which I needed an extra +1/+1 on Knight of the Reliquary, without the help of Wasteland or Flagstones of Trokair. And, of course, to fix the additional small red-splash for Firespout out of the Sideboard. As I´ve wrote above, I´m really having problems in beating any form of Elf-decks due to Priest of Titania, Elvish Archdruid and Quirion Ranger. I prefer 4 Armageddon-effects, although I own a Ravages of War, because it feels that more are hardly needed. What do the others think?


Greetz, K1LO

[JamSpot]

Kor Haven has saved my bacon on many occasion and will always be included in my build.

I'd drop a Wasteland for a Tabernacle and drop a Magus for another KotR.

[f|i[p]]

Yeah.. elves can be a pain if you don't go first. Titaina and the likes are a real head ache. So try to drop trinisphere or chalice as fast as possible. I'm not sure what version of elves you play against, Do you really need firespout that much... Maybe you can go back to the traditional stax builds running maindeck wrath of God if you are in a heavy tribal metagame. Or just side it in against tribal. I remember back in the gp, where 2 wraths saved me from an onslaught of elves, but this was a year ago I think..

[ClearSkies]

Wouldn't splash black for Engineered Plague be better?
You can also side in like Cranial Extraction like one of the Stax list in deck check versus like Krosan Grip or something annoying.
Not exactly the same type of Stax, but this is to give you some ideas. Click here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23647)

Humility is a good option too, except it does kind of hurt you as well.

[f|i[p]]

Problem with the black splash for E plague is that there are tons of creatures giving +1/+1 now... and elves I am assuming runs around 12..I'd rather stick with wrath as it does not call for another splash that would make you rely more on mox d and a single dual land...

[K1LO]

Yeah, Dutch-Stax would do better against Elves, thanks to Humility and Moat. I´ve even tested a transformational Sideboard with 3x Humility, 2x Moat, 2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant, but wasn´t that convinced as it only shines versus Aggro and it just takes too much slots. In general, I prefer traditional Armageddon-Stax, which I feel is doing better in what Stax is supposed to do, exept against Elves^^. Engineered Plague would have to be a 4-of and isn´t that effective due to massive Lord-effects. The Elf-versions I play against are simple Aggro-Elves with up to 12 Lords or Survival-Elves with Natural Order in addition. I´ve played some Wrath of God in my Sideboard for a long time, but looked out for something "more flexible". Firespout even works against Gaddock Teeg, which sometimes causes problems against UGw Thresh and even Naya-Zoo. Otherwise the white alternatives would also do their job, sometimes even better I have to confess. I´m definately going to test your suggestions, JamSpot, although I really dislike cutting a Wasteland. But, theoretically the numbers of Tabernacle-effects, Wastelands, ... would pretty much stay the same. Thanks for your input.


Greetz, K1LO

[f|i[p]]

I'm sure you'll end up siding out some cards... magus, prisons and O rings still work against well G.teeg. If you run P.kegs on the side that works as well. But as for swarm aggro, nothing beats wrath. Simple and effective.. Kills progen as well. Just try to dedicate more sideboard cards for aggro if its such a pain...I understand that your looking for more versatile cards ,but 4 O rings, should be able to help against teeg.

My sideboard currently looks like this...

1 knight of the reliquary
4 K. grip
4 Choke
2 wrath of god <-- can be replaced depending on the meta
2 compost <-- I haven't really tested this, but against ichorid, and black decks which are common here.. I am hoping this would help .
2 open slots

[K1LO]

;381555']I'm sure you'll end up siding out some cards... magus, prisons and O rings still work against well G.teeg. If you run P.kegs on the side that works as well. But as for swarm aggro, nothing beats wrath. Simple and effective.. Kills progen as well. Just try to dedicate more sideboard cards for aggro if its such a pain...I understand that your looking for more versatile cards ,but 4 O rings, should be able to help against teeg.

My sideboard currently looks like this...

1 knight of the reliquary
4 K. grip
4 Choke
2 wrath of god <-- can be replaced depending on the meta
2 compost <-- I haven't really tested this, but against ichorid, and black decks which are common here.. I am hoping this would help .
2 open slots
Maybe you´re just right about Wrath of God vs. Firespout and Gaddock Teeg should be answered by other cards, e.g. Powder Keg. Aggro isn´t such a pain in general, it is really only Elves that worries me. To my feelings, your running too many green cards in your Sideboard as it is just a small splash. Two Krosan Grip, in addition to 4 Oblivion Ring, and 3 Choke don´t do it for you? Compost, to be effective, needs to get down early in the game which won´t happen that often due to its color an that it is only a 2-of. I would be really interested in your current decklist! Just my thoughts.

I´m going to test the following Sideboard:

01 Oblivion Ring
02 Krosan Grip
03 Choke
02 Wrath of God
02 Powder Keg
... Exalted Angel/Sphere of Law/Suppression Field/Pithing Needle/...


Greetz, K1LO

[f|i[p]]

Maybe 3 wraths would be perfect... since it looks like your in a aggro heavy metagame...

[K1LO]

;381665']Maybe 3 wraths would be perfect... since it looks like your in a aggro heavy metagame...
Maybe you´re right ... again^^. My meta (statistics from a tournament with37 participants) consists of ~14% Combo, ~37% Aggro, ~33% Aggro Control/Control Aggro and ~16% Control, but I´m only really worried about those f***ing, mana-producing Elves. I´m playing MtG since 1999, mostly Storm-Combo that bores me from time to time, and Stax is just one of my secondary decks. So usually, I don´t have to care about creatures^^.


Greetz, K1LO

[Lammina]

Hi guys!

Now, with Metalworker avaiable (is no longer banned), it can be a new slot in Stax?

Lammina

[Skeggi]

I don't think Metalworker is viable in Armageddon Stax. He could enable a mono brown Stax, perhaps splashed with red for Welder.

[Lammina]

Spam. Search the site, do some work and at least remove the banned cards from your import. - Bardo

[Mr. Fix it]

i kinda think that metalworker stax is a while other beast all together. white stacks focuses on the LD and anti creature through tabernacle and magus of the tab, putting in metalworker changes the game plan too much i think.

i kinda think white staxs works great as is without him.

the first turn you have 3 mana avalible to you are you gunna want to drop metal worker when the deck usually calls for something like tangle wire or ghostly prison? the means and the clock the deck uses to lock people down as they currently stand, would they not be changed drastically by taking the time in that first turn with 3 mana to drop metalworker?

this could be crucial as the needed lock piece may not be in place and metalworker could get "dealt" with some how. then the opponent is all the more resource positioned to keep fighting?

[Wargoos]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=383212#post383212

There you go, my take on Monobrown Staxx (with karn)

[Lammina]

This Zendikar's angel can be a new card to White Stax?

Emeria Angel - 2WW
Creature-Angel (R?)
Flying
Landfall—Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control,
you may put a 1/1 white Bird creature token with flying into the battlefield.
3/3

[Mr. Fix it]

where did u find an angel like that? If that angel does exist it would be a nice boost to white stax and a couple other decks. I mean flagstone of trokar being pitched to smoke stack with this angel out as well as a crucible would be an awesome set up.

[ykpon]

even if you feel you need a finisher, why will you take this above knight or angel? because of its great synergy with tabernacle or what? :rolleyes:

[Mr. Fix it]

http://www.magicmadrid.es/blog/?p=1356

long as the information on that source remains valid of the day i post this. i seem to have found your angel.

yes tabernacle could kill all the angels u make but i would think u would kill tabernacle at some point if the opponents creatures are dead.

edit: I mean thats just for those of us who are fortunate to have the land tabernacle. Magus if that be the one your refering too would most likely work as you said.

[Misplayer]

+1 ykpon

It seems like whenever a white beater is spoiled, everyone immediately thinks "Wow this would be perfect in Stax!"

It's not about powerful cards, it's about synergistic cards.

[Mr. Fix it]

+1 ykpon

It seems like whenever a white beater is spoiled, everyone immediately thinks "Wow this would be perfect in Stax!"

It's not about powerful cards, it's about synergistic cards.

besides tabernacle being mentioned what else would be wrong with such an angel in the deck. You are convincing me to think it would be better suited for angel stompy verse white stax.

[santeria]

Narrow Escape 2W
Instant

Return target permanent you control to its owner's hand. You gain 4 life.


seems like a better card than the angel. lifeloss is always a pain in this deck. return a smokestack EOT, a redundant lock piece, chalice to reset it with a different number of counters, city of traitors and replay city of traitors, etc. seems like the list goes on.

[ClearSkies]

Narrow Escape 2W
Instant

Return target permanent you control to its owner's hand. You gain 4 life.


seems like a better card than the angel. lifeloss is always a pain in this deck. return a smokestack EOT, a redundant lock piece, chalice to reset it with a different number of counters, city of traitors and replay city of traitors, etc. seems like the list goes on.

It doesn't really contribute anything to the lock or damage through. Every card in the deck has to advance your game-play in some way because Stax depends on top-decks so much.

Either your opponent is destroying it or you returning it to your hand, you will most likely accomplishing what your opponent intended to do, which is reducing the number of relevant lock pieces in play.

[santeria]

yeah, but not all lock pieces are relevant, a lot can be redundant. multiple trinispheres or crucibles arent really anything other than stax fodder. sometimes I would rather gain life than have another lock piece.

[ClearSkies]

If you really wanted life, wouldn't Pulse of the Fields be better?

Narrow Escape is worse than a redundant lock piece. It doesn't gain a whole bunch of life, and it takes away your board. If it was a redundant piece, you could sacrifice it to smokestack.

If you have Crucible of the World out, wouldn't stuff like Nomad Stadium be better? It actually net you a lot of life over an amount of time.

Or maybe add a few more Armageddon effects, like Ravages of War.

[Mr. Fix it]

Narrow escape doesn't seem good not matter how you cook it. It fits the curve but just doesn't seem productive in white stax. I mean in Angel stompy it would probably shine for saving things from various destruction spells. wouldn't something like exile be better than narrow escape? that would solve more issues that would be causing you to lose life?

[FoulQ]

yeah, but not all lock pieces are relevant, a lot can be redundant. multiple trinispheres or crucibles arent really anything other than stax fodder. sometimes I would rather gain life than have another lock piece.

How is this logical at all? If you have multiple lock pieces in play and active and 2W available, aren't things going fairly well?

ClearSkies said it best. You have to think of the big picture. This is 2/60, 3/60/ 4/60 whatever of the deck. That is that percentage of cards you would be drawing that would be taking away from the synergy of the deck, thus further decreasing an already wobbly deck.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

yeah, but not all lock pieces are relevant, a lot can be redundant. multiple trinispheres or crucibles arent really anything other than stax fodder. sometimes I would rather gain life than have another lock piece.

In that case, I would think Oblation would be better, because I would rather do some tech trick drawing 2 cards than gaining 4 life. The smokestack scenario is too circumstancial*. I've Oblation'd Stax before at EOT with 4 counters on it, but thats not enough of a viable argument to justify that its a good choice in the deck. Stax will eventually get a new card that will make the deck better

"3WW
search your library for an enchantment,artifact, and creature and put them into play. Destroy all lands (This includes your land)."

Still waiting......

[_erbs_]

In order for metalworker to be used in a geddon stax shell some of the components needs to be changed.

Im very sure that several stax variants would come out sooner or later. For now im seeing something along the lines of winter orb / sphere of resistance + metalworker being part of the main deck.

[Mr. Fix it]

i pulled a world queller in the pre release. It kinda looks nice in the smoke stack slot on paper. you just need crucible out with a factory if your gunna be calling creatures in theory of a permanent minimum. i'm having a hard time seeing it working as an indefinite lock piece though. The huge thing though is smoke stack kills more than 1 thing a turn. but being able to target out what we dislike looks very appealing in the stead of killing multiple permanents.

[lorddotm]

i pulled a world queller in the pre release. It kinda looks nice in the smoke stack slot on paper. you just need crucible out with a factory if your gunna be calling creatures in theory of a permanent minimum. i'm having a hard time seeing it working as an indefinite lock piece though. The huge thing though is smoke stack kills more than 1 thing a turn. but being able to target out what we dislike looks very appealing in the stead of killing multiple permanents.

Why not play it over Knight?

[f|i[p]]

Since resolved fat creatures(or creatures with evasion) that deal around 3-5 damage are usually the problem for stax how do you propose world queller deals with that.

Knight has utility built in that can fetch lands which help the lock at the same time making him fat.

Angels has evasion and lifelink which is very important for this deck.

World queller is a 4/4 that acts like a smokestack except that it usually prevents you from naming creatures which is the problem we usually have.

We don't run a lot of creatures. Each creature we drop is vital to blocking or winning or helping out. So you have nothing to sacrifice to wolrd queller other than itself. ( with factories you'll need crucible). IF you sac it to itself...there goes your win condition that killed itself.

World queller can't block a goyf since goyf is usually at 4/5 and more common 5/6 against stax.

THen someone will argue, but you have the option to not use its ability. Yes you do, but then you get stuck with a 5cc 4/4 creature that doesn't do anything.

With aggro control/ aggro being 60-70% of metagames, I don't see world queller as a win condition in geddon stax.

[Linkin Pac]

What do you guys think about the number of Flagstones/basic Plains? I notice that most lists run a total of 10 one-W mana lands, which I think is optimal. Is a 3 Flagstones/7 Plains split more effective or a 4/6 split?

I've been running the 3/7 split and sometimes I get a Crucible and Smokestack with one counter out, but can't get to a Flagstones to start gaining a land advantage. The total of 4 Flagstones seems more appealing when you need one early in order to follow up with an Armageddon, but then you run the risk of getting two in your first hand, as well as running out of Plains to fetch while sitting on a Crucible/Smokestack lock. Even with 7 Plains last week, I once ran out of Plains to search out for. One turn when I knew I had two Plains left, I sacrificed the Flagstones, got the second-to-last Plains and then drew my last one that same turn. Anyone else had this happen before? It's so annoying.

[f|i[p]]

Its all about personal choice.. It has been discussed earlier..

I personally run 3 flagstones, as I often found having 2 of them in my hand.. which prohibits faster plays... (and this is very important for our deck.. to be able to lock out early)


It also goes the same with city of traitors... I personally run 3, as I never liked drawing 2 of traitors.. or having to sac traitors to often....

Its all a matter of choice.. if you don't run into those problems too often, then I would suggest running 4 of each... But if your a little unlucky like me... well.. going down to 3 might be the right choice...

[CorpT]

Does anyone have good sideboarding strategies? Looking for in/outs for a meta with:
Counter Top
Merfolk
Team America
Burn
Canadian Thresh

In about that order of expectations.

[The Wes]

I think that all depends on what you are running main. Humilities main? Tabernacle lands? Magus? Green splash? I'm sure we (I know I) would have lots of suggestions if we knew what you were playing main. Post your list, or what you plan on trying, or what options you have to play main at least.

[CorpT]

Sorry. The list is fairly straightforward and basically taken from the best lists I could find:

3 Magus
2 KotR

The rest is the fairly standard package of
4 Armageddon
4 Chalice
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
3 Crucible
3 Trinisphere
3 Oblivion Ring

Notable Lands:
1 Maze of Ith
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Savannah
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory

Thanks!

[The Wes]

Well, since your running green I'd suggest Grips and Chokes in the SB. Choke alone goes a long way towards hurting much of what you are worried about. I usually run 4 crucible, so when bringing in 3 x choke I usualy sb out -1 crucible, -1 geddon, and -1 smokestack when going against a blue based deck I worry about.
I've never really worried about sb'ing against burn, but I do run 4 trini. If anything your oblivion rings are rather pointless gainst them, so they can go. With 4 chalices and 4 trini's along with your geddons you shouldn't have too much of a problem with burn.
I'll think and add more later.

[CorpT]

Thanks. I haven't had a chance to test it against everything yet, so I'm looking for any input on Ins and Outs. I see a lot of decks running Suppression Field. What is that for primarily?

[nitewolf9]

Thanks. I haven't had a chance to test it against everything yet, so I'm looking for any input on Ins and Outs. I see a lot of decks running Suppression Field. What is that for primarily?

My guess would be fetchlands.

[The Wes]

Fetchlands,Manlands, Deed, EE, Top, and lots other. Yes, it doesn't stop a lot of those only slow them down, but Stax gains a lot of its power by constantly taxing whatever the other deck wants to do till you have the game locked down. It is just another piece in making everything they try to do more expensive. Last couple tournies I took the deck too I found myself siding it in against fish (jitte, wayfarer, fetches, vial), goblins (vials, fetches, wastes, commander, ports), agro loam/43 land (cycling land, manlands, couple other cards i can't remeber off the top of my head), Quinn (sheets, grindstone, scepter, and others), and Death and Taxes (a shit load of stuff). I'm not saying its the best card ever, but it does hit a lot of targets. I'll keep it in the sb for now.

[Steveman]

Here's my current list of Stax that's a fusion between Armageddon / Angel / Dutch Stax.

26 LAND
X4 Ancient Tomb
X3 Wasteland
X3 City of Traitors
X11 Plains
X3 Flagstones
X2 Horizon Canopy

30 Spells
X4 Mox Diamond
X4 Trinisphere
X4 Chalice of the Void
X4 Crucible of Worlds
X4 Wrath of God
X3 Moat
X2 Ravages of War
X2 Armageddon
X3 Smokestack

4 Kill Conditions
X2 Eslepth
X2 Exalted Angel

15 Sideboard
X3 Oblivion Ring
X3 Pithing Needle
X3 Swords to Plowshare
X3 Day of Judgment
X3 Engineered Explosives

This version of Stax features Wrath of God and Armageddon working together with Chalice / Trinisphere / Smokestackto screw over virtually any deck that plays creatures / lands / spells. With the rise of Qasali Pridemage and enemy fetchlands, I felt it was necessary to change my Angel Stax strategy to include Armageddons maindeck and have Day of Judgement in the sideboard. In my opinion, enemy fetchlands weaken Wasteland enough to matter, thus warranting the inclusion of Armageddon along with Wrath of God as board clearers. I am currently testing Day of Judgement as an interchangable card with Moat because Moat gets Krosan Gripped all day games 2 and 3 and Humility wasn't cutting it for me in the sideboard.

The manabase is incredibly strong, boasting 20 white mana sources and 11 Plains. I choose to run 3 Flagstones because I never want to see two in my opening hand because it'll slow me down a turn. Due to enemy fetchlands, I cut a Wasteland (still in testing, I might be overreacting to Misty Rainforest). I decided to cut my Mishra's Factory because they just weren't cutting it anymore and I would much rather have Plains / Flagstones in their slot to insure that I have WW up. I added Horizion Canopy earlier this year and found it to be very useful with Crucible and ramping EE: it's helped me a lot more than it's hurt me, being a non-basic painland vulnerable to Wasteland / Bloodmoon / B2B.

My gripe on Armageddon vs Angel Stax was always that the different lock pieces / kill conditions (Armageddon / Ghostly Prison / Magus of the Tabernacle) felt too weak by themselves, where Angel Stax lock / win condtions (Wrath of God / Moat / Exalted Angel) were very independent and didn't rely on other cards to be awesome.

I'm still testing the sideboard: Swords / Oblivion Ring are for any Gaddok Teegs (which ruin this deck) running around. Pithing Needle is for Perncious Deed / random planeswalkers and various other cards. The reason why I choose Pithing Needle over Suppression Field is that Suppression Field hurts me as well. Engineered Explosives is sided in against Zoo, Dredge, Enchantress, 43.land, and Belcher (to get rid of ETW tokens).

[GoldenCid]

Has anybody tested aggro staxx??? I found it interesting and fast winning i guess. I mean...one suffers less for victory. Here is a list:

// Lands
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
5 [ZEN] Plains (6)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [OD] Nomad Stadium
2 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [10E] Windborn Muse
3 [LE] Glowrider
4 [ON] Exalted Angel

// Spells
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [5E] Armageddon
3 [ALA] Oblivion Ring

I found some problems for constructing a sideboard because the list i've sawn has a "strategy flip" with Magus and Prison. Is it correct??

[igoticecream]

I don't see the reason why World Queller was not made for white stax.

World Queller is a mid/late game drop which work well when you don't want to raise smokestack counters and you need your opponent sacrifices one more thing.

Also it works like a Edict if you have factory and crucible, in case you need to edict opponent, you can sacrifice world queller as well (Something that Exalted Angel can help you on this).

Another pro for this creature is that it "solve" the pernicious deed problem in main deck, so you don't have to look in sideboard solutions, which may cost you a match

And finally, this is not the only winning condition in case you need to edict the opponent and you don't have mishra's factory in play... You still can win with Magus/Mishra's which is the way i usually win (or my opponent my surrenders :laugh: ).

Thats all, i'm currently using a pair of this awesome creature in main deck

Sorry for my bad english :cry:

[Steveman]

Armageddon Stax won Philly!

Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere

Creatures
2 Baneslayer Angel
3 Magus Of The Tabernacle

Enchantments
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring

Sorceries
4 Armageddon

Basic Lands
5 Plains

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City Of Traitors
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Savannah
4 Wasteland

Legendary Lands
3 Flagstones Of Trokair
1 Kor Haven

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
1 Aura Of Silence
3 Choke
2 Karmic Justice
2 Sphere Of Law
3 Suppression Field
1 The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale

Thoughts? Can't say I like Baneslayer Angel over Exalted Angel :/

[f|i[p]]

More or less.. Its almost the same, but with baneslayer, he just doesn't morph her down early.. he focuses on the early lock then casts baneslayer.. its the same when using knight of the reliquary.. You don't really want him down early...

So as late game creature, baneslayer is better than exalted. If we were to boost exalted angel early on, Exalted would be better. But as for me, I would stick with baneslayer since I'd rather focus on the early lock then cast my win con.

[GGoober]

That's my buddy who won Philly!

Not sure if he has a source account, but he mentioned that Baneslayer was MVP all day, and raced Tombstalkers. I definitely know that I like Baneslayer over Exalted for the sheer fact that Baneslayer is 5/5 First Strike Lifelinker. The firststrike really matters again a lot of matchup, and the fact that she's a turn faster than Exalted (unmorphed) with a big body is crucial. Morphing exalted is great but in today's meta, she can't survive past removal/control magic effects fast enough.

[GoldenCid]

Thoughts? Can't say I like Baneslayer Angel over Exalted Angel :/

I prefer exalted. It's morph is great!! It's a second turn flywing lifelink 4/5.

[sauce]

somehow i dont think staxx's biggest problem is which creature to kill the opponent with... last i checked even magus of the tabernacle does that just fine after the lock is established.

[ykpon]

somehow i dont think staxx's biggest problem is which creature to kill the opponent with... last i checked even magus of the tabernacle does that just fine after the lock is established.
That's true. Personally, i can't get the point of using Baneslayer besides the "wow holy shit thats a mythic angel" factor. Knight not only attacks and blocks, it helps finding useful stuff. Exalted not only attacks and blocks, it also increases the number of keepable hands adding an option of all-in turn two unmorph start. Baneslayer.. Well, it only attacks and blocks.

[Steveman]

My problem with Baneslayer Angel is the fact that you need 5 mana upfront to cast her. Getting 2WW open is easy, but 3WW is MUCH harder to ramp to, regardless of having an opponent in a lock or not.

[MULocke]

That's true. Personally, i can't get the point of using Baneslayer besides the "wow holy shit thats a mythic angel" factor. Knight not only attacks and blocks, it helps finding useful stuff. Exalted not only attacks and blocks, it also increases the number of keepable hands adding an option of all-in turn two unmorph start. Baneslayer.. Well, it only attacks and blocks.

Have you ever attacked or blocked with a baneslayer? It's not normal attacking or blocking, it just feels different somehow; it's special. It feels like, when you go back to attacking or blocking with other creatures it just isn't the same. It feels like victory.

Seriously, that angel attacks and blocks better than almost anything. First strike lets her actually block, lifelink lets her actually attack and race, and flying kills people, not chumps.

[Steveman]

If you're blocking with Angel, there's a very good chance that you're losing.

Many people criticize Exalted / Baneslayer Angel for "not being a lock piece" like Magus of the Tabernacle: they're wrong because these 2 Angels pretty much stop every non Tombstalker / ridiculously huge Tarmogoyf from attacking.

[CorpT]

If you're blocking with Angel, there's a very good chance that you're losing.

Many people criticize Exalted / Baneslayer Angel for "not being a lock piece" like Magus of the Tabernacle: they're wrong because these 2 Angels pretty much stop every non Tombstalker / ridiculously huge Tarmogoyf from attacking.

Tombstalker is a demon. BSA stops Tombstalker cold.

[THEchubbymuffin]

Tombstalker is a demon. BSA stops Tombstalker cold.

And it's a 5/5 first striker. So it would kill Tombstalker regardless of it's creature type. But I guess the demon clause is relevant if somebody chooses to run Tombstalker with some exalted creatures?

[Skeggi]

No, not really, because you'd still outrace the Tombstalker because of the Lifelink. You could simply attack into an untapped Tombstalker without any problems. Exalted won't help there.

About the Baneslayer Angel vs. Exalted Angel debate: I almost ran Battlegrace Angel instead of Exalted Angel, but she just came a bit short. I think Baneslayer really makes up for the shortcomings. The biggest issue Battlegrace Angel had was not having Lifelink when blocking, and not having an ass of 5 when blocking. Baneslayer Angel doesn't have these problems, and even goes beyond that.

It costs :3: + :2::w::w: and two turns or :4::w::w: to cast Exalted Angel. It costs :3::w::w: to cast Baneslayer. I know it's stating the obvious, but with Battlegrace Angel we already noticed it's often easy enough to pay, sometimes easier. If you want to drop Angels on turn 1 or 2, play Angel Stompy. This is Stax, you don't need your win condition until your (soft)lock is down. 3WW is prefectly doable, in fact, in some situations you don't have your extra turn to unmorph and it's cheaper than Exalted Angel. And has better stats. I think Baneslayer Angel wins over Exalted Angel with ease.

About Knight of the Reliquary vs. any Angel debate: KotR is a good card, but really lacks something we utilize the Angels for: Lifegain. Stax often needs it because it's slow and has Ancient Tombs. Plus, Angels still swing for the win if you like to use Moat.

[_erbs_]

Congrats on the pilot who used Geddonstax and won the tourny !!! Nice to see a stax deck do well in big legacy tournaments.

As a finisher role in GeddonStax my vote goes for baneslayer angel because of the following reasons:
1.) Having a power of 5 with Firststrike is huge in combat sitations.
2.) You are not playing aggro stax thus the play of 1st turn Trinisphere 2nd turn morph angel 3rd turn unmorph & attack is not your best play. Having that said the morphing ability is not as useful during late game, you'd rather cast her one time thus spending :4: :w: :w: mana 1 more as compared to BSA.

Out of curiousity i never tried running 4 smokestack main deck. Normally i run 3. I wonder why did he picked 4 smokestack main deck over 4 trinisphere since trini is an early lock peice and having to reslove it would almost give you an edge due to your turbo lands.

While resolving a smokestack without a crusible of worlds is abit risky. Since it makes you think twice before casting a geddon with no crusible even if have a softlock after a geddon.

Like what flip said it has the shell of Wg just replaced the KoTR with angels. While i was running the KoTR it really provided the muscle and utility needed but what i miss was the lifelink given by the angel (exalted or baneslayer). There are times in where the game is lock and you just need several turns to win the game but your life is below 3 and your opponent top decks a helix or something. Those are the times i think lifelink has an edge over KoTR.

[f|i[p]]

I have tested kotR and I have gone back to exalted angels. The utility knight provides was very strong, but the life link exalted angel provided was more important for me...

As I said, it will all end up in a matter of preference, knight, exalted or baneslayer or even just simply magus.

As for me, I have been playing with this deck since it was angel stax, and all I can say is that life link is very important. Boosting to a morphed exalted isn't as strong as it used to be. Putting her down late game would help you focus on your early lock pieces which is FAR MORE IMPORTANT than putting an early exalted in play(and randomly winning hoping they don't have removal). I think baneslayer would do the job better.

As for smokestack being a 4 of, I think he realized that trinisphere is quite useless beyond the 3rd turn, It may slow down the deck, but its really useless in multiples. Smokestack is usually a must counter, I personally run 3 smokestack and 3 trinisphere main(leaving the 4th trini on the side). Ive found smokestacks useless at times early on, but I will have to see how it goes as a 4 of. Remember this deck has more permanents than most decks, we don't really need crucible to support smokestack.

As for the decks problems, its still the same. Baneslayer, knight or exalted, it doesn't change much.

[ykpon]

Knight doesnt gain life? Without Nomad Stadium that's correct and that's a pity. But your angel, does it destroy lands? Or maybe it can cast a Wrath of God after a resolved geddon?


If you want to drop Angels on turn 1 or 2, play Angel Stompy.
I suppose, you didn't get my point. Stax using Exalted and stax using Baneslayer have the same number of lock pieces. Both angels often are just finishers, so they don't make you cut stuff like CoTV, that's obvious. So here is what I mean:

If you are running Baneslayers, it usually doesn't matter for you when you decide to keep or mull your hand. You care only about mana and lock pieces.

If you are running Exalteds, number of 'good' hands (with mana and lock pieces) and number of 'bad' hands (without mana and/or lockpieces) should be the same as when you are running Baneslayers, because you still have same number of lands, moxen and stuff. It probably should, but it isn't. Exalted Angel sometimes allow you to keep 'bad' hands which you would never keep with Baneslayer, that's its power. Having fast mana and Angel, but no lock elements (who keeps in stax without lock elements?), you can try to go all-in with a turn 1-2 angel. You can name it 'Angel Stompy mode' if you wish. And if you have a single chalice it isn't even all-in anymore, that's just a very good start. Such fast angel is even more effective after sideboarding, when they side StP's out and usually keep superslow hands if they include something useful like Deeds or Grips.

So in my opinion choosing between angels you choose between less mulls and a bigger finisher. I'd always choose the first option, as inconsistency of keepable hands is the main trouble I meet playing stax.

Btw, personally I've chosen just not to make this choise. So I usually don't run any creatures but Mishra and Magus. But if i do, i think Knight has more chances than Exalted and Baneslayer hasn't any chances at all unless my meta becomes really wierd like a lot of big flying dudes (stalker, pit dragon) and burns.

[GoldenCid]

So....World queller and luminarch assention kept out of the list??
I like both cards...
On the other hand...has anybody tested elspeth knight errant here??

[Steveman]

So....World queller and luminarch assention kept out of the list??
I like both cards...
On the other hand...has anybody tested elspeth knight errant here??

Luminarch Ascension is way too slow and it's easier to win the game with Baneslayer Angel than with Worldqueller.

My list runs 2 Elspeth, I like them a lot because they're very hard to get rid of once they hit the board and seal the deal fairly quickly once I have a soft lock up and running.

[Skeggi]

On the other hand...has anybody tested elspeth knight errant here??
Seriously? There's a search function. RTFT.

[Otter]

My list runs 2 Elspeth, I like them a lot because they're very hard to get rid of once they hit the board and seal the deal fairly quickly once I have a soft lock up and running.

I've found that once people realize that they don't have to pay for Prison to attack Elspeth, she starts to get a lot less durable.

[Steveman]

I've found that once people realize that they don't have to pay for Prison to attack Elspeth, she starts to get a lot less durable.

My list runs Moat over Prison

[Isei]

I've found that once people realize that they don't have to pay for Prison to attack Elspeth, she starts to get a lot less durable.

Definitely what pushed me to run KotR in my list after testing Elspeth.. I liked how she could be used for defense, and KotR fills that same role, by fetching important lands. I never really tested Baneslayer, though. I can see why she would be useful... but I'm not quite sold. I have searched out more wastelands from my deck with Knight than I can count.

[GoldenCid]

Luminarch Ascension is way too slow and it's easier to win the game with Baneslayer Angel than with Worldqueller.

My list runs 2 Elspeth, I like them a lot because they're very hard to get rid of once they hit the board and seal the deal fairly quickly once I have a soft lock up and running.


I thought queller as complement (just 1 copy) of smokestack maybe in a 4 EA 1 BA basis with 4 magus.

On elspeth: it's right that prison does nothing, but this girl provides us of ever blocking soldiers at the time we increase the numbers of counter. With time we'll get the stack/magus that'll kill the attacking creature...don't you think so??

[Isei]

On elspeth: it's right that prison does nothing, but this girl provides us of ever blocking soldiers at the time we increase the numbers of counter. With time we'll get the stack/magus that'll kill the attacking creature...don't you think so??

So, you want to play a card that does not help lock and only stalls them while they try to attack you. Wouldn't you be better off with a Wrath? At least that kills their creatures...

[GoldenCid]

So, you want to play a card that does not help lock and only stalls them while they try to attack you. Wouldn't you be better off with a Wrath? At least that kills their creatures...

I just tried to justify any inclusion of this girl in the deck.

[Steveman]

I just tried to justify any inclusion of this girl in the deck.

Elspeth is ideal when you play Moats, Humilities, or Wrath of Gods because she's a kill condition that dodges your own hate.

Regarding World Queller, he's not exactly the most ideal win condition. Assuming you don't have a hardlock, his P/T / cost ratio isn't that great (4/4 for 3WW), he has no evasion, and he can't clear your opponents creatures without clearing himself: Tarmogoyf is a HUGE problem for World Queller. As a lock piece, he's way too expensive and he dies to Swords :/

[SpencerForHire]

I think arguably, you are always going to want Baneslayer over Exalted Angel in this deck. The reasoning has been pretty simply laid out but Baneslayer is just more efficient in every way.

As for Baneslayer Angel vs. Elspeth, I think we need to realize that we play both these cards for two reasons.

1. Kill Condition
2. Solidify the aggro matchup.


Both creatures have a way to kill your opponent, Baneslayer swings through the air, Elspeth swarms. In my experience (and hopefully the experience of everyone else here) you win the game with this deck by getting a higher permanent count.

Elspeth comes down a turn faster (and consequently is just easier to play) than Baneslayer and gives you the wonderful bonus of being synergistic with Smokestack, and giving you plenty of early blockers.

Both creatures have a weakness in the Zoo matchup for instance:

Baneslayer: can die to swords, double burn, NOT creatures.

Elspeth: dies to multiple creatures or double/triple burn, NOT swords.

Either card is warranted it really is going to be up to play preference. Ghostly Prison not synergizing with this card is a small price to pay for an additional hard lock with smokestack.

[Nate]

Ghostly Prison not synergizing with this card is a small price to pay

Ghostly Prison only affects your opponent - explain yourself!

Oh, I figured it out: Ghostly Prison doesn't protect your Elspeth :tongue:

[Gibsonmac]

Hi guys, I'm new to the thread, and deck, and was wondering what are the problem MU's for stax? I really want to play this deck I'm thinking

[The Wes]

I'd say that completely depends on your list you are running, the ones going for a more control route (elspeths and humilities) have a different set of bad matchups than the ones going angel/magus route. What are you planning on running?

[FieryBalrog]

The problem matchups for Stax aren't really problem matchups as problem cards.


The things Stax hates the most are:

Aether Vial (seriously, this card is horrible for Stax and is one of the main reasons to run O-ring main deck) because Vial gets around Chalice, gets around Trinisphere, and gets around all mana disruption, and drops creatures at instant speed.

Single, large, efficient creatures such as Tombstalker and Dreadnaught. Traditional Stax (built with Ghostly Prison, Magus of the Tabernacle and heavy mana denial) was built in an era with more goblin and swarm decks, and these cards are extremely good at shutting down swarms. But they aren't as good at shutting down single, large threats that people can push through Prison ad Magus, that provide very short clocks.

(-> This is a reason Dutch Stax has gained popularity, because Humility and Moat shut down single big creatures very effectively.)

Dark Confidant. Another reason to run O-ring main. Because Stax cannot run StP despite running White (ironically) both the "single, large creature" problem and the "dark confidant" problem become much bigger.

The other big problems with Stax, which comes from the deck's design and not the opponents, is that it doesn't have a good clock. It lacks the equivalent of its own tarmogoyf. You can have the board locked down but lose to a random top-decked lightning helix while your Mishra's factory was chipping away at the opponents life total. Because of Ancient Tomb, you often have a very low life total when you stabilize- I've had games where I stabilized at 6 without taking a single point of damage from the opponent. The recent experimentation with Baneslayer Angel is meant to combat this (it was also the role of the old Exalted Angel in Angel Stax).

And, of course, Stax depends heavily on your opening 7. Without a package of brainstorms and ponders, Stax relies far more on top-decks and the opening 7 to win games.


The good part about running Stax is that it has a significant advantage- with a decent opening hand- against countertop and threshold decks, despite them running 'goyf- especially when playing first. This is probably the single best reason to run Stax. Stax almost completely dodges counterbalance, brutally punishes force of will, daze and brainstorm, etc. through trinisphere, and the rest of the mana disruption package can go the distance.

Stax is also one of the few white decks that has a decent matchup against Storm combo pre-board and post-board, because Trinisphere and Chalice are that damning. Trinisphere also heavily screws with Dredge (shuts down Dread Return, and in general they can't cast anything since they play off about 1 land), as does Prison (which shuts down their alternate win method through Ichorid and slow-rolling zombies).

Trinisphere really might be the single most brutal card in Legacy and Stax can put it out turn 1.

[Steveman]

The problem matchups for Stax aren't really problem matchups as problem cards.


The things Stax hates the most are:

Aether Vial (seriously, this card is horrible for Stax and is one of the main reasons to run O-ring main deck) because Vial gets around Chalice, gets around Trinisphere, and gets around all mana disruption, and drops creatures at instant speed.

Single, large, efficient creatures such as Tombstalker and Dreadnaught. Traditional Stax (built with Ghostly Prison, Magus of the Tabernacle and heavy mana denial) was built in an era with more goblin and swarm decks, and these cards are extremely good at shutting down swarms. But they aren't as good at shutting down single, large threats that people can push through Prison ad Magus, that provide very short clocks.

(-> This is a reason Dutch Stax has gained popularity, because Humility and Moat shut down single big creatures very effectively.)

Dark Confidant. Another reason to run O-ring main. Because Stax cannot run StP despite running White (ironically) both the "single, large creature" problem and the "dark confidant" problem become much bigger.

The other big problems with Stax, which comes from the deck's design and not the opponents, is that it doesn't have a good clock. It lacks the equivalent of its own tarmogoyf. You can have the board locked down but lose to a random top-decked lightning helix while your Mishra's factory was chipping away at the opponents life total. Because of Ancient Tomb, you often have a very low life total when you stabilize- I've had games where I stabilized at 6 without taking a single point of damage from the opponent. The recent experimentation with Baneslayer Angel is meant to combat this (it was also the role of the old Exalted Angel in Angel Stax).

And, of course, Stax depends heavily on your opening 7. Without a package of brainstorms and ponders, Stax relies far more on top-decks and the opening 7 to win games.


The good part about running Stax is that it has a significant advantage- with a decent opening hand- against countertop and threshold decks, despite them running 'goyf- especially when playing first. This is probably the single best reason to run Stax. Stax almost completely dodges counterbalance, brutally punishes force of will, daze and brainstorm, etc. through trinisphere, and the rest of the mana disruption package can go the distance.

Stax is also one of the few white decks that has a decent matchup against Storm combo pre-board and post-board, because Trinisphere and Chalice are that damning. Trinisphere also heavily screws with Dredge (shuts down Dread Return, and in general they can't cast anything since they play off about 1 land), as does Prison (which shuts down their alternate win method through Ichorid and slow-rolling zombies).

Trinisphere really might be the single most brutal card in Legacy and Stax can put it out turn 1.

You forgot Pernicious Deed :-P

Most decks BG rock style decks are extremely brutal matchups because they have big creatures like Tarmogoyf / Tombstalker, and run hate like Pernicious Deed and Krosan Grip :/

[SpencerForHire]

I'll be honest, the amount of either of those decks I run into on a tournament basis is currently, zero. If you see a lot of them in your meta, don't play this deck, it's metagaming.

But, I don't really know a metagame that plays enough of those decks for me to really sweat it, especially with all the Zoo running around which, if I'm not mistaken, rolls over those decks.

[FieryBalrog]

You forgot Pernicious Deed :-P

Most decks BG rock style decks are extremely brutal matchups because they have big creatures like Tarmogoyf / Tombstalker, and run hate like Pernicious Deed and Krosan Grip :/

Krosan Grip yes, but I don't really fear Deed that much because its so mana intensive vs a deck that is heavily disrupting their mana. Popping a deed for less than 3 is pretty useless vs. Stax. It is annoying, of course.

Oh, I should have said- Stax absolutely loathes Trygon Predator with a passion. I really hate that card :p It combines the "single, efficient creature" with "blow up Stax's board". Its probably the single best sideboard card against Stax.

[Linkin Pac]

I find it ridiculous how people still don't respect this deck. People were scoffing at it for top 8'ing the Legacy Championship, saying the event wasn't that big of a tournament, now it has won an even larger tournament. I know the deck has some consistency problems, but it more than makes up for it with powerful opening plays; I would even go to say it has the potentially most dangerous first turn in the format with Trinisphere. It feels like the only control deck that has both inevitability AND explosive starts.

I think Baneslayer Angel is better than Exalted Angel in almost every aspect, but the real question to me is, are any of the angels necessary in the deck? My Stax deck uses 4 Magus as the only creature, and combined with Mishra's Factories, they serve as the win condition of the deck. An angel seems like overkill for this purpose, since the main goal should be to lock the game or stabilize, then the kill doesn't really matter. And as for the life gain assisting you in those moments where a topdecked burn could kill you, is having the extra life in the form of an expensive creature worth sacrificing other synergistic parts of the deck? Sometimes you really don't want or need the angel at all.

[lorddotm]

I find it ridiculous how people still don't respect this deck. People were scoffing at it for top 8'ing the Legacy Championship, saying the event wasn't that big of a tournament, now it has won an even larger tournament. I know the deck has some consistency problems, but it more than makes up for it with powerful opening plays; I would even go to say it has the potentially most dangerous first turn in the format with Trinisphere. It feels like the only control deck that has both inevitability AND explosive starts.

I think Baneslayer Angel is better than Exalted Angel in almost every aspect, but the real question to me is, are any of the angels necessary in the deck? My Stax deck uses 4 Magus as the only creature, and combined with Mishra's Factories, they serve as the win condition of the deck. An angel seems like overkill for this purpose, since the main goal should be to lock the game or stabilize, then the kill doesn't really matter. And as for the life gain assisting you in those moments where a topdecked burn could kill you, is having the extra life in the form of an expensive creature worth sacrificing other synergistic parts of the deck? Sometimes you really don't want or need the angel at all.

Sometimes going T1 CotV@1, T3 Baneslayer will just win the game.

It is nice to be able to win in the 45 minutes we have for a round.

[Steveman]

are any of the angels necessary in the deck?

It all depends on what lock pieces you play: if you play a version that features Moat, then you're going to want either an Angel or Elspeth.

[f|i[p]]

Krosan Grip yes, but I don't really fear Deed that much because its so mana intensive vs a deck that is heavily disrupting their mana. Popping a deed for less than 3 is pretty useless vs. Stax. It is annoying, of course.

How can it become useless when popping it for zero breaks all your chalice as well as your mox Diamonds.

Decks with Pernicious deed also pack Discard, which this deck hates as well, specially that we don't have a single draw engine except horizon canopy(if you run them).(Don't even start by saying that's why chalice is there..blah blah...you don't always have chalice to protect you from every single card that costs 1 or 2.)

This is one of the biggest reason to run K. grips . Grips were meant for dreadnaughts, maybe even sensei if it annoys you. But I run K. grip specifically for Pernicious deed.

[GoldenCid]

I was thinking in a flip strategy postside consinting in a -4 magus +2 elspeth +2 martial coup for long matchups such as landstill (where magus isn't very usefull). Do you think that it's viable??

[Steveman]

:cool:
I was thinking in a flip strategy postside consinting in a -4 magus +2 elspeth +2 martial coup for long matchups such as landstill (where magus isn't very usefull). Do you think that it's viable??

Not too sure on it's viability, but why Martial Coup over Decree of Justice?

[GoldenCid]

:cool:

Not too sure on it's viability, but why Martial Coup over Decree of Justice?

Right!! Decree it's better in that case!! My want to put it work! I think it could be usefull becayse i'm not looking for creature destruction in this case!

[FieryBalrog]

Elspeth is fantastic against Landstill type decks.

[SpencerForHire]

Elspeth is fantastic against Landstill type decks.

Getting legend ruled by a deck with superior draw power doesn't seem so strong.

[GoldenCid]

Getting legend ruled by a deck with superior draw power doesn't seem so strong.


But it's a great option. Humility is not a problem anymore. Beside i choosed decree to reforce this point. What matters the "legend rule"??

[lorddotm]

Knight of the Reliquary seems better than other options to me.

[GoldenCid]

Knight of the Reliquary seems better than other options to me.

But i run him too

[lorddotm]

running KotR and Elspeth? your deck is cuttin short on lock pieces or something.

[GoldenCid]

running KotR and Elspeth? your deck is cuttin short on lock pieces or something.


Nop. Elspeth comes post side. Against landstill and fellows MotT and the taberlacle become uselles. So i side in 2 elspeht and 2 decree. KotR is in my main deck without elspeth.

[btex]

Hi, I am the stax pilot who won Philly.

I took the same list to a side event at PT Austin and beat dredge followed by two merfolk before losing to dragon stompy. The only change I made between events was -1 karmic justice for +1 moat in the sideboard. The moat was pretty good vs the fish because I don't think either of the lists ran any bounce. Dragon stompy blew me out in one game with double song into chalice@4 which I had no answers to.

I didn't take good notes in Philly, but I beat (in order): Stasis, AnT, Belcher, Zoo, Dredge, Canadian Thresh, double draw into t8, Depths Combo, Bloodghast Dredge and Canadian Thresh (same opponent as round 6). Thankfully the combo took out most of the zoo.

I ran baneslayer over exalted because I would never drop either angel until I had a softlock or no other viable options. Baneslayer is better than exalted for that purpose. I haven't had time to test knight enough, but at this point, I am more likely to keep running baneslayer. The lifelink and evasion was relevant on numerous occasions. I am not a proponent of Elspeth in any stax list running ghostly prison.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Has the red splash been given much thought here? I know it seems like it might push the deck toward D. Stompy but access to Ajani V, Boil, Pyroclasm, and Simian Spirit Guide to accel even more sick t1 plays seems good for the deck. Plus, Ajani V doubles as an amazing kill card.

[Steveman]

Has the red splash been given much thought here? I know it seems like it might push the deck toward D. Stompy but access to Ajani V, Boil, Pyroclasm, and Simian Spirit Guide to accel even more sick t1 plays seems good for the deck. Plus, Ajani V doubles as an amazing kill card.

I used to play Red splash for Rolling Earthquake maindeck and Pyroclasm in the side: it worked out great beacuse this was Legacy Pre-Tarmogoyf where every other deck was Goblins.

Honestly, Red doesn't bring much to the table: Pyroclasm doesn't cut it anymore, Ajani is more vulnerable than Elspeth, and Simian Spirit Guide is a big no no because it's not a permanent mana source. If you want more mana acceleration, Chrome Mox is your answer.

The only card worth splashing Red for IMO would be Boil. However, Green offers so much more in Choke, Krosan Grip, and KoTR, not to mention it allows you to run Horizon Canopy.

[FieryBalrog]

Chrome Mox is not that great because less than a third of your deck can be imprinted on it, and often its something you don't want to imprint anyway.

I'm really liking Baneslayer in this deck. It gives the deck the ability to quickly seal the deal after some heavy disruption, as well as gaining back some much needed life, instead of giving the opponent forever to recover. Its much better than Exalted Angel, you should almost never be morphing the Angel anyway, I always hated tying up two of my early critical turns on that.

[Steveman]

Chrome Mox is not that great because less than a third of your deck can be imprinted on it, and often its something you don't want to imprint anyway.

Agreed: I never said Chrome Mox was great, I would just much rather play it over SSG.

Anyways, Btex, I would like to congratulate you on your win and representing Stax. I'm wondering if you could give us some input on your sideboard, like what was extremely useful and if there were any cards you thought were duds.

[GoldenCid]

Hi Guys. Yesterday i've a hard test day of my deck. Played agaist: Dragon stompy, Elves, Pox, Eva green, Death and taxes and so on. I'm gld with the resultas beeing Pox and Eva green the worst match ups last night. Here's the list:

// Lands
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
5 [10E] Plains (3)
2 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle
3 [ON] Exalted Angel
1 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
3 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
3 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
3 [US] Smokestack
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [6E] Armageddon

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 4 [RAV] Suppression Field
SB: 2 [PLC] Stonecloaker
SB: 2 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [SC] Decree of Justice

This monday i'm going to get a tardenacle at pendrell vale. Which do you thing is the best change for including it??
was thinking on: -1 Flagstone + 1 Tarbenacle, -1 Magus +1 Exalted.
What do you think about Kor haven is a good inclusion??

[Gibsonmac]

Hi Guys. Yesterday i've a hard test day of my deck. Played agaist: Dragon stompy, Elves, Pox, Eva green, Death and taxes and so on. I'm gld with the resultas beeing Pox and Eva green the worst match ups last night. Here's the list:

// Lands
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
5 [10E] Plains (3)
2 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle
3 [ON] Exalted Angel
1 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
3 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
3 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
3 [US] Smokestack
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [6E] Armageddon

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 4 [RAV] Suppression Field
SB: 2 [PLC] Stonecloaker
SB: 2 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [SC] Decree of Justice

This monday i'm going to get a tardenacle at pendrell vale. Which do you thing is the best change for including it??
was thinking on: -1 Flagstone + 1 Tarbenacle, -1 Magus +1 Exalted.
What do you think about Kor haven is a good inclusion??

Good call on the tabernacle.

You should test Baneslayer instead of exalted, it's soooo much better, pro tombstalker (evagreen is a beating) the first strike is extremely relavant. Either way, 3 is more than enough angels. if anything, I would -1 magus +1 Knight

May also want to cut a City of traitors for a savannah, then you can run choke in the board more reliably if you need.

??How do you like KotR?? havn't had time to test it yet.

[Steveman]

I would probably cut a City of Traitors, most people I see are playing 3, including myself, and it works out just fine.

As far as the sideboard goes, how do you feel about Defense Grid? I never really liked it because I felt that I already have a good matchup against most U/X decks. Also, do you think the interchangeable kill conditions are worth it? Perhaps it would be better to board in more silver bullets against those decks instead of switching your kill condition.

[FieryBalrog]

I would run Baneslayers instead of the Exalted's. They really are fantastic. I wouldn't run more than 2, though. You want to minimize overdrawing them.

3 Magus + 2 Baneslayer is the creature package I run, but I think the Green splash is better, just too lazy for it. In which case I would also run at least 1 Knight, if not 2.