[Deck] Armageddon Stax

[GoldenCid]

I tried 4 stax before and I wasn't too happy since I don't need it all the time. I found 4 armageddon effects too little and 6 too much so 5 is just about right for me since its a way for stalling and locking them down. I only need stax when I am about to lock them down just like I did a few mins ago on MWS :) So far I am liking the new addition, karakas. It doesn't screw up the number of white mana producing lands and now I have more answers to things I don't like such as gaddock, baneslayer or other legendary creatures :) I have 3 armageddons and 2 ravages atm.

I think that it's too risky put all the hopeness in the first game expecting not to have enought time for the second game and win 1-0. I played WW stax with 4 magus + 1 tabernacle and no angels and i found the deck too slow and always in the edge of danger :P. The problem is that wit out a solid draw engine (2 canopies is too poor) locking your opponent is as probable as not. Seriously, i like the "just magus" version but i didn't get good results (in addition i was running 4 smokestack + 4 trini). With angels (2 baneslayers) although i can't lock up my oppnent as fast i can swim him with angels with soft lock.

[K1LO]

Excellent tech with the Karakas, time to grab one before the price suddenly jumps to $70. Out of curiosity, has it ever mattered that you're splitting your basics with Snow-Covered basics? They're already immune to Echoing Truth, Pithing Needle, Cabal Therapy, Meddling Mage, and Extirpate. The only thing I can think of that would affect them is Wake of Destruction, and I don't think that's ever seen play in legacy.
Haha, Karakas will sell for at least 120 USD^^. Seriously, that´s no special tech at all, but just an obvious solution against Iona, Shield of Emeria when playing a white-dependant deck that can play it without a huge drawback, as I´ve even seen Enchantress-decks with it. But, I´ve played Karakas before Iona had its big appearence, only because of Gaddock Teeg. The split between basics and Snow-Covered basics is just a personal preference as I like to split cards, although this land-split doesn´t make any sense. Actually, if you really think about it, playing only Snow-Covered basics would be the best, as there is a small chance your confused opponent puts you on The Mighty Quinn (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6188-[Deck]-Quinn-The-Eskimo-Aka-The-Mighty-Quinn) when starting with a Snow-Covered Plains. And if I could afford two more Ravages of War, I´d play them not just to show how big my p... urse is, but as the chance that one day a Meddling Mage names Armageddon is much higher, as nobody expects you to have those Ravages. But, the only split that ever mattered to me is The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Magus of the Tabernacle, as the land is just that much better.


Greetz, K1LO

[Otter]

Haha, Karakas will sell for at least 120 USD^^. Seriously, that´s no special tech at all, but just an obvious solution against Iona, Shield of Emeria when playing a white-dependant deck that can play it without a huge drawback, as I´ve even seen Enchantress-decks with it. But, I´ve played Karakas before Iona had its big appearence, only because of Gaddock Teeg

Give yourself some credit -- not a single one of the 126 Stax lists on deckcheck has a Karakas in it :wink: I think that qualifies as some decent tech.


The split between basics and Snow-Covered basics is just a personal preference as I like to split cards. Actually, if you really think about it, playing only Snow-Covered basics would be the best, as there is a small chance your opponent puts you on The Mighty Quinn (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6188-[Deck]-Quinn-The-Eskimo-Aka-The-Mighty-Quinn) when starting with a Snow-Covered Plains. And if I could afford two more Ravages of War, I´d play them not just to show how big my p... urse is, but as the chance that one day a Meddling Mage names Armageddon is much higher, as nobody expects you to have those Ravages. But, the only split that ever mattered to me is The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Magus of the Tabernacle, as the land is just that much better.


Greetz, K1LO

Good point about them possibly putting you on Quinn. I'd do it if I wasn't so much in love with my Korean basics. I wish you were wrong about the Tabernacle being better as a land than a creature, because it's going to take me a while to save up for one.

[4zureSky]

I´ve played 4 Armageddons and 1 Ravages of War for some time, but sometimes I had several copies stucking in my hand and as they don´t feed Smokestack, switched back to 4 Armageddon-effects as having one of them was more than enough. But this number may be more preference than relevant, although I still think that the 4th Smokestack should be in there. Btw., Baneslayer Angel is (unfortunately!) NOT legendary^^.


Greetz, K1LO
Wow.. Baneslayer really isn't a legendary! I need to pay attention to the details more haha. But returning Iona back to their hands is a great idea that you said later! I've had problems with Iona in reanimator decks and I heard ichorid is starting to play with Iona :(

I just arrive from a 75 people tournament with 4-2-1 finishing in the 14th position playing 3 Suppresion field MD and I have to say that they are th MVP of the deck. You can almost hardlock the opponent with a suppresion and a crucible/wasteland. I'm just considering of quitting all the smokestacks so it's too much slow and always the card I quit in 2nd and 3rd games.

A little summary of the matches:

1st round canadian: I win the first match thanks to chalice (opponent conceded fast) losed the second game mulliganing to 5, and in the third I locked him but I have to almost draw all the deck with canopy to find something to kill him, finally I win almost at time.
2nd round ant: I lose first match, won the second thanks to sphere of resistance and aura of silence, in third game we tie due to time.
3rd round bant: I win first round thanks to chalice @1 and some business (tabernacle and geddon), losed the second with mulligan @5 XD. We couldn't finish the third game.
4th round goblins: 2-0 Easy (I draw all the business in the world, prison, tabernacle, suppresion, crucible, geddon, and sphere of law in second game XD)
5th round Survival: I win easy the first match, but losed 2nd and 3rd due to mulligans (no business with 7 cards, no lands drawing 6 and absolutely nothing with in 5)
6th round Survival?: I win 2-0 easy. I suppose that the deck was survival because I see qasali, flametongue and magus of the moon (that I removed with oblivion ring).
7th round Zoo: I losed the first game because only see oblivion rings and any business. I winned easy the second and third match hardlocking him with suppresions (fetchlands) and crucible/wasteland. In the second match I started first turn playing suppresion with mox, opponent readed the card and almost conceded in this moment, he played 2 fetchlands in his first two turns and when he coulds active the first one I have crucible in play and geddon waiting in hand ;-p.
I still need to try the suppression fields in MD, but I never had to the time to test them. Congratulations on the placing. I myself probably wouldn't be able to place that high in a big tournament like that though I never tried going to a tournament yet since I don't know of any near where I live :(

Give yourself some credit -- not a single one of the 126 Stax lists on deckcheck has a Karakas in it :wink: I think that qualifies as some decent tech.
Agreed! I went through this whole thread before actually registering and I haven't seen any karakas in any decks till you suggested it :) And I guess I should test 4 stax again so I can see if I like what you guys are playing with. I need to try to see it from a different perspective :P

[red.devil]

I tested Suppression Fields some months ago. I liked them a lot but, due to my meta (Dragon stompy, tribal and other casual decks), I cut them.

Looking at the current meta, maybe it's time to bring them back to MD. SupFields slow down opponent's ability to fetch for basic lands, giving us good targets for our wastelands. Moreover they shut down SDT, which is problem for us (it allows the opponent to dig looking for responses). Another good reason to play SupFields is the return of the SotF deck, not mentioning the number of Qasali in the current meta.

Another card I tested with good results is the Aven Mindcensor. It's wonderful played against ANT in response to mystical tutor/fetchland, and vs NO bant and survival. Usually they switch creature removal for artifact/enchantment hate, so the Aven is a good card to stop their fetch and tutor effects.
Even against enchantress is good, because it stops Sterling Grove tutoring for Aura of Silence, Karmic, etc.

[Al-ucard]

The fact I like most SF is because all of us know the problem this deck have with the topdecks. So if you could play SF and gain 3-4 turns because opponent will be playing 2 for each fechland to get the lands he need, you have more time and will be drawing more answers and more stuff thanks to this turns. And meanwhile you will be playing all the stuff you draw, on contrary that the opponent.

This is why I decided to quit them for trinispheres. SF, instead sphere doesn't prevent that opponent take 3 lands and plays all the cards he need, yes more slowly, but he could play them. So in my opinion SF is more restrictive and a better hardlock than trinisphere.

With SF you could start playing it at first turn and automatically win because opponent have only fetchlands in hand.

Another point is that due to qasali, ZOO decks are more predominant. So with suppresion they have to choose in playing first and hope we don't remove him with oblivion or pay 3wG to destroy something in the same turn. In yesterday tournament I hardlocked a Zoo deck with suppresion and crucible+wasteland.

This is the list I played:

25 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Mishra's factory
1 Kor haven
3 Flagstones of trokair
4 Wasteland
6 Plains

5 Creatures
2 Baneslayer Angel
3 Magus of the tabernacle

30 Others
4 Chalice of the void
4 Crucible of worlds
4 Mox diamond
3 Smokestack
3 Suppresion Field
4 Armageddon
4 Ghostly prison
4 Oblivion ring

15 Sideboard
4 Trinisphere
3 Aura of silence
3 Sphere of law
2 Tormod's crypt
2 Sphere of resistance
1 Magus of the tabernacle

If I could afford 1 ravage of war and 1 more baneslayer angel I surely will quit all the stacks and play with 3 angels and 5 geddon effects.

[Steveman]

Alucard, how's Baneslayer working for you? If I were to make any changes to your deck to fit Trinispheres, I would cut 2 Baneslayer and 1 O-Ring, but that's just me.

[Al-ucard]

As I mentioned early, trinisphere is not needed since fields are much more restrictive nearly always.

About Baneslayer, now I'm looking for the third one because sometimes its difficult to draw him and matches went too long without him XD. I expect this answer your question heheh.

If I could, I will play with 3 fields, 3 Baneslayer, 4 Tabernacle, 5 geddon effects and 0 Stax.

[4zureSky]

I wish I can cut something like stax or trinisphere that easily, but in my meta its full of thresh and countertop along with zoo. I have it tough haha. Trinisphere is always something I like to see and a deck without stax isn't stax anymore :rolleyes: Though stax can be annoying to draw at times I still love blowing up the lands then playing stax afterward. The opponents almost always concede after I do that and it feels awesome :laugh: Btw how is sphere of resistance working for you guys? I always wanted to try it but never had the time. My sb is full of chokes and grips so my sb is tight as it is :mad:

[Steveman]

Most people dislike Sphere of Resistance for the fact that it is completely symmetrical unlike Trinisphere, which really only affects your Mox Diamonds and CotVs. However, some people have Sphere of Resistance in the sideboard for the combo matchup.

I would never cut Smokestack from the deck. Sure, it's not exactly the most reliable card and it takes a turn just for your opponent to sacrifice their most useless permanent, but without it, we lose the hardlock. But then again, Smokestack is the only card that eats everything (forever!), so cutting Smokestack would mean losing the "inevitability / final nail in the coffin" factor. I would just never play 4, I'm pretty sure that 3 is the standard for most people, not to mention that's the number you usually see in the Stax decks that do well in big tournaments.

[Al-ucard]

I used Stax in 0 of the 7 matches I play yesterday and always was the card I put in side. Maybe if people starts to play suppresion field probably will see that they could quit Stax or Trinisphere...

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Could Journey to nowhere find a home into this deck? Its a Chalice proof Swords.
Play it in the early game to bye some time later sac it to Smokestack. Should be good!?

It just gives the deck some removal!

[4zureSky]

O.Ring > Journey to Nowhere. And the fact that its converted mana cost is 2 gets in the way with chalice of the void because I usually put chalice at 2 for decks like dead ale guy or something else. I wouldn't suggest it, but you can try it out I guess.

[Sims]

I used Stax in 0 of the 7 matches I play yesterday and always was the card I put in side. Maybe if people starts to play suppresion field probably will see that they could quit Stax or Trinisphere...

I'm getting the impression that you are playing this deck much differently than I. I could almost see putting SF in the main, depending on the metagame. I wouldn't necessarily say over Trini though. However, you seem to be playing the deck more like a Angel Stompy deck- throwing down an early disruption piece (SF, chalice, Prison) and trying to find your fat flier to steal the game while your opponent is reeling, with the Geddon -> Tabby effect to wrath away your opponents creatures to buy you time if Baneslayer gets removed. This is definitely an Angel Stompy playstyle, and not Stax.

The way i play this deck, there is no way i'd ever cut Smokestack or 3-Sphere. They're too good at what they do. I'm looking to actually lock my opponent, and then beat in with Factories, as opposed to just disrupting and hoping baneslayer will take it down. I'd rather have the innevitability over the speed.

Perhaps taking a look into Angel Stompy and trying to revive that archtype of White Chalice Aggro is the way you should be going? Try to geta new spin on the disruption followed by huge angel beats deck.

[Q-Ball]

Really I haven't found removal to be a big problem. Having an opening hand with Chalice or Trini seems enough to buy time to lock out.
Recurring Mishra's to block isn't so bad either. Crucible and Wasteland + some speed can also be an amazing opener.
I see many people go to get the hardlock and then mishra's are enough.

Personally I find a softlock is normally enough with my bigger beaters.
Juggernaut or Lodestone comes down they quickly start hurying for removal, and with a chalice at 1 and a trini normally they can't get rid of them.

They'res very few decks a real hardlock is needed.

And in the mirror having bigger 4cmc beaters can help.

[GoldenCid]

since i began to play this deck i run 3-4 smokestack and i always felt unconfortable with it. The fact is that we need strong removal beyond creatures. I play with 4 magus and a tabernacle that should be enoguh!!! Althought i feel unconfortable with it, i feel unsafe with out it :(

[Steveman]

So here's my current list that I've been testing with lately, yesterday I placed 2nd in a 5 round single elimination tournament on Magic-League

26 LAND
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Flagstones of Trokair
11 Plains
3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland

34 SPELLS
3 Smokestack
4 Moat
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Mox Diamond
3 Humility
2 Ravages of War
1 Armageddon
3 Oblivion Ring

15 SIDEBOARD
1 Ravages of War
2 Armageddon
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Karmic Justice
4 Wrath of God

Yes, this is actually "Dutch Stax" except I don't have a crappy sideboard and I don't play man-lands. However, seeing how it has Armageddon, I figued it'd still be appropriate for me to post here, although if any mod has a problem with that, I'll gladly revive the Dutch Stax thread.

For the past few years, I've been playing a list similar to this, but I had Wrath of God in the maindeck in lieu of Humility. However, with Smokestack / Oblivion Ring also in the maindeck, there are many times where I felt Wrath of God was just a really expensive Terror. Also, the fact that it wasn't a permanent or a lock piece made me reconsider its spot in the maindeck. I decided to test out Humility in the maindeck and decided that I liked it a lot more than Wrath of God for game 1 because it actually functions as a lock piece in game 1 where there really isn't any artifact / enchantment hate. However, I feel that Wrath of God is still a good card in the deck, but I feel that it's better in the board because I don't need it in every single matchup.

So let's start off this mini primer with an FAQ

1.) Why no man-lands?
- There are 10 cards in the maindeck that require WW in their mana cost, so I want the most stable manabase as possible, hence the 11 Plains. Also, as good as Mishra's Factories are under Humility, they're useless under Moat. And quite frankly, I hate chump blocking and feel that not getting Wastelanded > chump blocking the inevitable.

2.) Why only 3 Trinisphere in the maindeck?
- I had 4, but I wanted to make room for the 3rd O-Ring. Also, I saw how the winning list in whatever that 5K was playing 3 Trinispheres, so I might as well go with what works.

3.) Why only Elspeth as the kill condition?
- Elspeth, in my opinion, is the best kill condition possible for any Stax list that featurues Moat. By itself, it functions as a lock piece, is extremely hard to remove, feeds Smokestack, and flies over Moat / Humility. My favorite thing about Elspeth is that it's similar to an artifact / enchantment, meaning they're not vulnerable to everything like creatures are.

To be cont...

[Q-Ball]

Elspeth I can agree to.
A free token generator? Feed smokestack much?
Elspeth allows you to run Stax at 2 or EVEN 3 in later game (when you have double crucible out or double trini or double whatever!) And then just have it consume itself if need be.

And should she go Hadoken, then armageddon becomes much more insane no?

I will make room for her when I can get 3.

To improve or offer mainly an alternative.
Dropping two plains for two Rifstone Portal's allows incredible access to a diverse sideboard.
From choke, to grips. Obviously Grips are less useful, however, Choke is an end all be all against a deck that has issues with Draw/Go and monster-counter decks since we are so opening hand dependent.

[4zureSky]

I actually tried Elspeth before and I didn't like it as much as I thought. It costs quite a lot of mana when I can play two things instead. I am not saying Elspeth is bad, but it doesn't fit my playing style. I like to put pieces slowly then when my opponent is most unaware I bring in the bomb and kill my opponent from there. I think Dutch Stax is more of a bomb for every card sort of like a short term period kind of feeling if you know what I mean. After trying Angel Stax, Dutch stax and many variants I like the stax with knights the most. Traditional list with a 61st card WoG.

[K1LO]

Could Journey to nowhere find a home into this deck? Its a Chalice proof Swords.
Play it in the early game to bye some time later sac it to Smokestack. Should be good!?

It just gives the deck some removal!
I´m plaing one Journey (over the 3rd Wrath-effect) in the sideboard at the moment, along with the 4th Ring, as it is e.g. one more answer to Gaddock, an early Pridemage or Predator and takes care of Titania or Archdruid against Elves. I think the speed makes it a reasonable choice, although it struggles with Chalice at two. Crip Swap would also be an option, but Journey is "probably" still better.


Greetz, K1LO

P.S.: From now there is a Stax-deck playing Karakas^^ on DeckCheck (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32270), as I´ve loaned it to a friend of mine who unfortunately got paired against Imperial Painter in the last round, but could convince his opponent to ID.

[GoldenCid]

Why not PKeg main deck??

[Q-Ball]

Certainly possible, but in many cases, first game you win based on what you got. Second game they bring in their artifact hate, and most of the time it's not enough. So working from there they'res very few reasons to have it main deck. If you find yourself in the case where they drop an early tarmogoyf, you have options that don't require blowing it up.

More specifically, it does not serve as a permanent. While O-ring gives you a permanent to Stack and they lose one.

[Zythe]

I've been wondering, why don't more people play Elspeth in Geddon Stax? She seems absolutely bomby in this deck. I know the WW can be hard but armageddon costs the same, and not only does she make permanents to sack to smokestacks, but she also chump blocks the singleton big dude your opponent could afford to pay 2 mana to swing at you for. So in that regard she acts like a kor haven/maze while also doubling as a pretty fast win-con after you lock them out.

[Misplayer]

I've been wondering, why don't more people play Elspeth in Geddon Stax? She seems absolutely bomby in this deck. I know the WW can be hard but armageddon costs the same, and not only does she make permanents to sack to smokestacks, but she also chump blocks the singleton big dude your opponent could afford to pay 2 mana to swing at you for. So in that regard she acts like a kor haven/maze while also doubling as a pretty fast win-con after you lock them out.

+1. I've always been a fan of the Elspeth/Humility package in Stax myself, but with Baneslayer seeing play it's gotten tougher to find slots. You do NOT want to cut lock pieces for win-cons. Obviously this leads to discussions about the "Dutch Stax" variant that plays Moat as well, but that tends to price out your average Stax player.

That said, Stax has taken a pretty big hit because of Qasali Pridemage (actually that one card has had about a significant impact on the format as anything printed in the last 5 or 6 sets). In order to beat a deck like Zoo you need to a) draw the right lock pieces (this has always been true) and b) keep them in play. Pridemage hitting one lock piece like a Ghostly Prison, Trinisphere or Chalice can lose you the game straight up. Knowing that one of your lock pieces is likely to get blown up makes your draws even more important than they were before. A deck with no library manipulation or card draw like Stax (most Tomb/Chalice decks actually) would already semi-regularly lose games to itself because of an inability to draw the right cards at the right time (despite redundancy in almost every slot) and cards like Pridemage that are standard 4-ofs in all Zoo lists really exacerbate this weakness.

[ClearSkies]

I've been wondering, why don't more people play Elspeth in Geddon Stax? She seems absolutely bomby in this deck. I know the WW can be hard but armageddon costs the same, and not only does she make permanents to sack to smokestacks, but she also chump blocks the singleton big dude your opponent could afford to pay 2 mana to swing at you for. So in that regard she acts like a kor haven/maze while also doubling as a pretty fast win-con after you lock them out.

You have to remember that ghostly prison doesn't protect Elspeth. So if the person has more than one creature, Elspeth is doomed.

[Q-Ball]

Yep, this makes Chalice at 2 or Pithing Needle important in the matchup.

[Misplayer]

Yep, this makes Chalice at 2 or Pithing Needle important in the matchup.
This seems unreasonable. Chalice at 1 is the best play against Zoo because >50% of their deck is 1-drops. To protect against Pridemage you'd need to draw double Chalice or Chalice + Needle, requiring you to play Needle first and letting them drop 1-2 additional 1-drops on top of their turn one play, and you'd need to get those Chalices online before they land Pridemage. Now you've devoted your first 3 turns to stopping one of their weaker cards while they smash you with Nacatls, Kird Apes, Lavamancers, Figures, KotRs and burn spells.

The point remains, stabilizing against Zoo is a tall order.

[Q-Ball]

Having a hand that can produce 4 mana on turn 2 is a main way to do it.
Three mana on turn one (Even if it is city of traitors and a mox) is the best.
First turn Trini.
Now you have two more turns to establish a wastelock, get a chalice or two out, or even better a second trini.

Lately with Lodestone and Juggy I've been able to come out swinging, first turn Trini, second turn Lodestone has been a game over for them. He gets in a free beat normally, then they have to start dropping threats that are going to end up blocking while I get more lock pieces down.

[Zythe]

You have to remember that ghostly prison doesn't protect Elspeth. So if the person has more than one creature, Elspeth is doomed.

Ah ok, that makes a lot of sense actually. I guess I never thought of that before.

[Q-Ball]

After a bit more testing;
Although I love Elspeth. And I love Ghostly Prison.
They just are not needed. They are always soft-lock components, and never truly help towards a hardlock.
So they're cut to the sideboard for Goblins.

Oblivion Rings however, offer a 2 permanent swing. You gain a permanent, they lose one. In that way, they are incredible with Smokestack allowing it to begin chewing faster.

2 Juggernaut
4 Lodestone Golem

3 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Smokestack
3 Tangle Wire
4 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Darksteel Citadel
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Plains
2 Riftstone Portal
4 Wasteland


Sideboard:
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Suppression Field
3 Ghostly Prison
6 ?

[The Wes]

I can't say enough what a bad idea taking Ghostly Prison out of main would be, at least for armageddon stax.

Elspeth works great, but you really need to run humility main with it. That way the ghostlys not protecting it isn't as much of an issue.

Also, I have never (with 4 years experience playing stax exclusively) liked tangle wire in geddon stax.

[Steveman]

Yeah Q, I feel that your deck doesn't have enough creature control, I"d at least throw out the Juggernauts for Magus. Also, I think Ghostly Prison would be better than Tangle Wire. In my testing, I always found Tangle Wire underwhelming unless I played it together with Smokestack

[4zureSky]

I only have 3 solutions for qasali and that is damping matrix in sb n 3 o.rings and one wog in main deck for me :P I was never fan of Elspeth but more of a KoTr person :)

[danzam86]

Hello everyone! I'm new of this forum and I'm very interested about this deck. My current list is:

2 Baneslayer angel
3 Magus of the tabernacle

1 Elspeth, knght errant

4 Armageddon

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere

3 Oblivion Ring
4 Ghostly Prison

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Kor haven
7 Plains
4 Wasteland


Sideboard:

1 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Suppression Field
2 Runed halo
3 Tormod's crypt
2 Karmic Justice
3 Aura of Silence
1 ?

In this deck there's something wrong and I don't know what it is..any suggestion? I want to add one ravages of war to the maindeck, but where? Baneslayers are very good in this deck and I like the one copy of elspeth..Having two copy of smokestack is the same as put them out, so what?

[Otter]

It's not like there are a lot of options. Cutting too many lock pieces down to 3-ofs is dangerous and you can't really have any of them at 2 copies. Oblivion Ring is too useful as a catch-all answer to go to 2. I wouldn't go down to 24 land either, it's risky with Diamonds. That pretty much leaves you with getting rid of an Elspeth or Baneslayer.

Edit: Well, speaking from the standpoint of the traditional list, at least. If you want to branch out and try a non-conventional build, just read the last couple of pages in the thread, there are plenty there to try.

[4zureSky]

You can try cutting a City of Traitors for the 5th Armageddon effect. I too have 5 Armageddon effects. 3 Armageddons and 2 Ravages of War.

[Al-ucard]

Zoo its an easy matchup, I don't see the problem... Maybe its because you don't play suppresion field MD like me ;-p

[Moduloc]

What sideboard cards would you guys suggest for a field bogged down countertop decks.

[The Wes]

S. field, K. grip, Choke. But are you really that worried about countertop?

[Dark Ritual]

...Countertop? Only card they have we care about is goyf because it can be big and nasty. Along with their 4 daze and 4 FoW obviously. Staxx has 3 and 4 drops, 2 two drops (chalice at 1, suppression field out of the board).

Against zoo, you want chalice for 2 to stop pridemage and goyf. Chalice for one can get blown up if you don't have chalice at two set up to go online the next turn. Which is annoying; if they never see pridemage, you always want chalice at one because their whole deck is like 1 drops. The only times you want it at two is if they see pridemages or price of progress which can blow us out.

Ghostly prison + magus of the tabernacle seems like a hardlock against swarm decks. So don't say ghostly prison is a 'softlock'. G. Prison also combines well with armageddon and wasteland. Along with trinisphere.

[Al-ucard]

I think that against zoo its better chalice at 1 and if they lose a 2/2 exalted creature to deal with chalice its ok. Since then, they was doing nothing and maybe meanwhile they draw pridemage we have set up or have another chalice at hand.

[Otter]

I think that against zoo its better chalice at 1 and if they lose a 2/2 exalted creature to deal with chalice its ok. Since then, they was doing nothing and maybe meanwhile they draw pridemage we have set up or have another chalice at hand.

Yeah, there's no point to setting a lone Chalice at two. What you really want is a pair of them for one and two, but if you only have a single copy in hand, you have to set it to one. Not only does it affect more of their deck, but if you set a Chalice at two first, then you can't Chalice at one if you draw it.

[Moduloc]

S. field, K. grip, Choke. But are you really that worried about countertop?
I just put the deck together, and countertop is everywhere so Ive yet to face it. How does the matchup go anyway?

[thebadmagicplayer]

It basicly goes

turn one play chalice @1 or trinnisphere
turn 2 play pemanent
repeat turn 2 play afew more times


if they get out an early goyf, they might win but if they dont stick a threat for more than 2 turns you win.

[myw002]

Hi I'm new to this thread. I was wondering if there are any optimal lists that you as a stax player would run if you had no budget. Thanks!

[Otter]

Hi I'm new to this thread. I was wondering if there are any optimal lists that you as a stax player would run if you had no budget. Thanks!

K1LO's list (post #1991) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6044-%5BDeck%5D-Armageddon-Stax&p=426583&viewfull=1#post426583) is pretty hot. If you're not confident in your ability to finish rounds quickly enough, you can sub in a pair of Baneslayers for a Trinisphere and a Magus. If you want to, squeezing in a second copy of Ravages somewhere might be good (he mentions this in his post as well). Also, consider Suppression Field maindeck over Trinisphere, it's a metagame choice, but worth thinking about. Sphere is great against combo but pretty can be frustrating against Vial decks or Zoo. Field is great against Zoo (fuck you, Pridemage) and hoses random Vial/Fetchland/Top shenanigans all day, but it's not going to stop somebody from pissing all over you with LEDs.

EDIT -- I forgot to mention, as K1LO said in a later post, if you have a truly unlimited budget you should run the split as 3 Ravages/1 Geddon. No one is ever going to throw their G1 Meddling Mage/Therapy at Ravages instead of Geddon, the chances of their opponent having the budget to play 3 Ravages is ridiculously low.

[myw002]

I think I might try this with Kilo1's list:

2/2 split between Magus and Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2/2 split between Armaggeddon and Ravages of War

And maybe taking out a Sphere and Smoke Stack for a Smokestack for:

+2 Baneslayer Angel

What do you think?

If you're wondering about the purse size...I'm thinking about taking apart my fully powered ANT deck (vintage). So I can sell some power and still make the deck.

[GoldenCid]

I think I might try this with Kilo1's list:

2/2 split between Magus and Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2/2 split between Armaggeddon and Raves of War

And maybe taking out a Sphere and Smoke Stack for a Smokestack for:

+2 Baneslayer Angel

What do you think?

If you're wondering about the purse size...I'm thinking about taking apart my fully powered ANT deck (vintage). So I can sell some power and still make the deck.

Now i understand because 2 tabernacle requires a great budget!!!
On the other hand i like baneslayer. Off course you'll soft lock you oppos in exchange on winning faster.

[myw002]

Now i understand because 2 tabernacle requires a great budget!!!
On the other hand i like baneslayer. Off course you'll soft lock you oppos in exchange on winning faster.

Were you being sarcastic with the 2 tabernacles comment? Just wondering. Yeah, it's pretty expensive now. Pretty much 250ish for 1. I have a Lotus, Jet, Twister, and Recall. I forgot I don't own a Sapphire. But, I think that should still cover the price of the deck. I don't know...What are your guys opinion on this matter? Would you deconstruct vintage if you had these cards to make this deck?

[Arsenal]

If I were to sell off my P9, I wouldn't blow the majority of it on Tabernacle. Tabernacle is incredibly narrow and only used in 2 competitive decks; Stax and Lands. I would much rather obtain Legacy staples; cards that you use in a wide array of decks. Duals, fetches, Goyfs, FoW, Chalice, etc. IF you already have every Legacy staple (due to playing Vintage), then I suppose getting a Tabernacle wouldn't be a waste as most of the deck is semi-cheap otherwise. I'd stick with 4 Armageddon and 1 Ravages of War; Meddling Mage has fallen out of favor in many, many sideboards that are able to support him.

[Moduloc]

We had a legacy tournament last night and I went 3-1 and only lost to zoo. Supression field worked great but wasn't enough. What other cards would you guys suggest for any zoo or aggro build. I got the lock on every other deck without a problem. thanks.

[Arsenal]

Playing with standard Armageddon Stax, Zoo is a sucky matchup if they land a Pridemage/Teeg before we can get lock pieces out. I've usually relied on O.Ring, Wrath, and/or Sphere of Law to help... it still sucks balls though.

If you're running the Dutch Stax version, Humility followed by Moat is GG if you drop Humility before they get Teeg out. It's still rough; Zoo has the means to get 1-2 retarded creatures out before you can really do anything and then they ride that to victory backed up by decent burn.

[GoldenCid]

We had a legacy tournament last night and I went 3-1 and only lost to zoo. Supression field worked great but wasn't enough. What other cards would you guys suggest for any zoo or aggro build. I got the lock on every other deck without a problem. thanks.

Maybe sphere of law i guess...and off course O-ring helps.

[Moduloc]

Maybe sphere of law i guess...and off course O-ring helps.

thanks for the help, I never considered sphere of law. sounds like just what i needed.

[Jon Stewart]

Were you being sarcastic with the 2 tabernacles comment? Just wondering. Yeah, it's pretty expensive now. Pretty much 250ish for 1. I have a Lotus, Jet, Twister, and Recall. I forgot I don't own a Sapphire. But, I think that should still cover the price of the deck. I don't know...What are your guys opinion on this matter? Would you deconstruct vintage if you had these cards to make this deck?

I would never sell off power for Tabernacle. Tabernacle isn't integral to the deck. I still play a slightly modified version of the exact decklist listed in the opening post of this thread (the only changes I made are that I play either 2 O. Ring or 2 Cataclysm and 2 Angels instead of the 4 EE and I play 3 Wasteland instead of the 3 Crystal Vein). So basically I'm playing...

0 Tabernacle
4 Magus of Tabernacle
0 Ravages of War
4 Armageddon
0 Moat
and occasionally a Cataclysm or two.

Unlike Tabernacle, Magus doesn't get blown up by your own Armageddon (thanks to your own Flagstones, Mox Diamonds or simply planning ahead by playing your land drop for the turn after you Geddon). Magus stays in play to cost your opponents every single creature they have after your Armageddon. Pendrall Vale doesn't do that.

The decklist doesn't feel the least bit suboptimal. The only thing that feels suboptimal in my list is that I opt to play the far cheaper Battlegrace Angel instead of Bankslayer Angel and the deck still operates very well. There are a couple of advantages to Baneslayer over Battlegrace (first stike, pro dragon) but the only creature against which they seem to matter is Tombstalker). Not enough to justify the 100 fold increase in the price IMO. I would get the Bankslayer Angel whenever it rotates out of Standard as it is worth it, but the Tabernacle of Pendrall Vale lands aren't IMO. The deck still functions perfectly with 4 Magus instead. I would bet that even if I cut some Magus of the Tabernacle and got ahold of and played 2 Tabernacle, it would improve my win percentage by less than 1%. Why plop down so much money for such an incremental gain?

[K1LO]

@ Magus of the Tabernacle vs. The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale:

You can play this deck with just Magus as it almost works the same, is a great blocker and attacker, but the original Tabernacle as a 1-off won me more games than the 4th Magus would have done, because it comes down a little earlier (matters against Dredge, Elves, Goblins, ...), can be pitched to Mox Diamond and be recurred with Crucible of Worlds. Nevertheless, I´d never play with less than 3 Magus as he is just that great too.

@ Armageddon vs. Ravages of War:

If you really can afford Ravages so play it over Armageddon, as it matters sometimes (e.g. against Landstill, Bant Aggro/Survival) and just does exactly the same, compared to Magus and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. But, I must confess, that I´ve only ever lost one game where a 2nd or 3rd Ravages over Armageddon would have made the difference.

If I wouldn´t own The Tabernacle and Ravages, I bought them some time ago when they were cheap, because of my Highlander-decks I wouldn´t buy them right now as they are just not worth their pricey investment over Magus or Armageddon (the same with Baneslayer Angel right now) and Stax isn´t such a good deck at all. I´d rather get other Legacy-staples (e.g. more Duals, Phyrexian Dreadnought, ...) and NEVER sell any power just to buy these. If someone wants to quit Vintage and get more into Legacy, please don´t waste your money on hardly needed Stax-cards, but get you a real competitive deck instead.

@ Zoo-matchup:

Last tournament I´ve lost two straight games against a Zoo-player who got flooded in both games to get besides my Trinisphere, Wasteland and three! Ghostly Prisons and of course I didn´t draw an Armageddon-effect and my Crucibles got destroyed by Qasali Pridemages. Shit happens, although I´d say that it is a pretty even matchup. Against Zoo I didn´t like the Suppression Fields from the sideboard, but I´m going to test them as a 4-off again as you sometimes have to land two of them to prevent any activated abilities. The card I sided in the most during the whole tournament was the 4th Oblivion Ring which I´d really like to be maindeck, but can´t find any room for it. Journey to Nowhere was great too, as you have to get rid of those Meddling Mages and Gaddocks to play Armageddon or Smokestack.


Greetz, K1LO

[myw002]

So what would you say is a top deck that should be built then that is well worth the investment.

[Otter]

So what would you say is a top deck that should be built then that is well worth the investment.

Anything that involves Forces, Goyfs, and Trops. It gives you a lot of flexibility, once you have the core cards it's not difficult to switch between decks like Tempo Thresh, Supreme Blue, Countertop Bant, Bant Survival, etc. There are tons of options to work from once you have blue duals, Goyfs, and Forces. Stax doesn't give you nearly as many ways to use your cards. The main money cards in a normal Stax build are the Mox Diamonds, which can also go in Aggro Loam or 43 lands, but the rest of the cards mostly just work for other stompy/prison decks.

[Jon Stewart]

This deck isn't a bad investment by any means. It's a lot of fun and let's you switch over to playing Dragon Stompy and Faierie Stompy as well. I'm saying investing $300 to get Tabernacle or Ravages solely for this deck when your budget is tight isn't a good investment. The deck does function perfectly well and plays essentially the same without Tabernacle or Ravages since Magus and Armageddon are pretty much just as good and do the same thing.

If you like Aggro, build Zoo, if you like Aggro Control build Countertop or Merfolk and if you like prison build this. You can't go wrong with any of those choices, It all depends on your playstyle.

[myw002]

"and Stax isn´t such a good deck at all."

It's that exact statement that lead me to believe that perhaps was not as well off in the legacy format as I had thought. Perhaps, this is an incorrect statement? I am interested in this deck, otherwise, why would I post here.

[Arsenal]

Stax can definitely win, but the main drawback that keeps players away is that it's so frickin' dependant on your opening 7; there's no tutoring and no drawing to speak of (I don't really count a 1-of Horizon Canopy as a reliable draw effect). That's why this deck is virtually all 3-ofs and 4-ofs, we're at the mercy of the draw step. When you win, you generally win big due to having the perfect amount of lock/answers in your hand. When you lose, you lose big due to drawing lock too late or not the correct kind of lock depending on the matchup. It's frustrating and a glaring problem that has no clear solution; that's why Stax is a tier 2 metagame deck that can occasionally win tournaments out of nowhere.

[4zureSky]

I believe that stax is one of the most enjoyable and good to play with decks out there if one knows how to play stax correctly. Getting staples cards to legacy is real important since it is in many of the decks that are played today. I invested in two Ravages of War because it helps me that much and I can play around Meddling Mages calling Armageddon. IMO I think Magus of the Tabernacle is way better than The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. There was this once match where I needed to put one land down for armageddon and he had a mass of creatures ready to attack next turn. I wasn't able to clear the creatures since I wasn't able to do the WOG effect with tabernacle and armageddon since I already put a land down. This would be an example where Magus of the Taberncle dominate over Pendrell Vale. I am also assuming that I have played Magus of the Tabernacle already of course :P

[Arsenal]

4 Magus + 1 Tabernacle seems like the "best" fit, especially given the rise of Merfolk, Zoo, and other aggro strategies. I don't think you'll really be hurting too much if you can't acquire the single Tabernacle, but I think it'll pay dividends in the long run.

[Al-ucard]

Last sunday I went to a more 90 people tournament and I finish the 14th (another time), this was my list:

25 Lands
6 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Savannah
1 Karakas

6 Creatures
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Baneslayer Angel

29 Others
4 Chalice of the void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Armageddon
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Suppresion Field
3 Trinisphere
3 Ghostly Prison

60 Total

15 Sideboard
4 Choke
3 Aura of Silence
3 Tormod's crypt
3 Sphere of Law
1 Trinisphere
1 Ghostly Prison

The report:

1st Round: SurviBant.
We start well, against one of the best players of the league and with a deck that a chimpanzee is able to do top8.
I win the dice roll and start: Plains + Mox + suppresion = His face take serious, he plays dual, I play and active wasteland paying 2. Finally he concedes with 4-5 fetchlands in play XD
In the second game I keep a slow hand, he counters the key cards and with an exalted 5/6 goyf actives qasali destroying its survival that changes the goyf into 6/7 that kills my blocking tabernacle.
In the third match I play choke first turn but opponent starts with taiga + hierach, this time my face take serious XD I draw bad and finally lose against a war monk.
0-0-1

2nd Round: Dark depths.
The first one opponent was attacking me for so long with confidant and I take 18 damage with prison in play. I finally topdeck an answer in the shape of oblivion, him plays another confidant and I topdeck another ring! Finally I play armageddon and him concedes since this takes for 30 minutes and I will win this game.
In the second one I didn’t remember so I imagine that I start well I draw better.
1-0-1

3rd Round: GodBant.
Directly humiliated me. It is the first time in my life playing Stax I feel I could do nothing against a deck
I keep a slow hand but with suppresion in second turn. He plays land and hierarch. I started with plains and pass. He plays goyf, I wanted to play suppresion in second but not mox and not city of tomb so I couldn’t play about daze so I prefer to play land and pass. He plays another goyf so I change my strategy and play city, then came FoW so I pass, he attacks and I only have a turn left. I play Tabernacle and he play swords at EOT.
I started with trinisphere in the first turn, the plays FoW. He starts with hierarch (another time this guy in first turn). I played chalice @1. He plays war monk and starts to attack. I didn’t draw the land I need to play tabernacle and one turn before die I finally draw it so I play magus and next turn I’m prepared to play geddon that probably gives me the game. I pass the turn and at EOT the plays the bant charm and puts my magus at the bottom of library.
1-0-2

4th Round: Goblins.
I win the first match because opponent didn’t came at time.
The secong match he starts with vial, I start with suppresion. In the second the played piledriver, I think nothing. In the third turn he put lackey with vial at 1 in upkeep and then puts the second counter he attacks with piledriver and lackey (i didn’t realize that Lackey was sicked) ye puts another piledriver with lackey ability. I remove lackey with ring, the with vial at 3 puts warchifes and attack to 12 damage, I’m at 2. I played tabernacle and stall the game for so long since I played the second suppresion and keep him under 4 lands with wastelands. Finally I played a geddon that gives me the game (definitely, is the card that makes the games end).
2-0-2

5th Round: SurviBant.
First one I draw nothing so I lose. In the sideboard for first time I put the fourth trinisphere and the prison instead the chokes since as I see previously this decks could play so well around them thanks to hierarch. In the second I play some lock pieces in 2 first turn and in third a baneslayer that end fast. The third one tooks so long but finally I could resolve a geddon with a Tabernacle in play that gives me the game.
3-0-2

6th Round: ANT.
Another time opponent arrives late so I win the first match. In the second opponent started with WU fetchland so I play tomb and chalice@1. In second the plays land and pass. In the third I played land and pass because didn’t have nothing. In its third I realized the deck he was playing because the tried to combo out, but finally he couldn’t thanks to chalice (he draws some tutors and rituals).
4-0-2

7th Round: Team America.
I started with chalice @1 so his face look serious. He played some sinkholes but I was drawing lands. Finally I played trinisphere, tabernacle and geddon so he concedes.
In the second I put 3 chokes In (I saw some underground seas in last game and this deck) and the fourth trinisphere in first turn I play crucible because I have trinisphere for the second so I wanted him to counter crucible and exactly is what the do. So in the second I played sphere, at third I played prison and him starts to make pressure with tombstalker, but with my wastelands I keep him lower than 2 lands. Finally I played geddon so he concedes.
5-0-2

Conclusions:
Choke its not a good cards against Bant because of hiearch, so I’m thinking in the black splash with Scrubland instead Savannah and put 3-4 Perish in side. Thoughts?

[K1LO]

Please don´t get me wrong, I still enjoy playing Stax and do so from time to time as it can be very powerfull. But, on the other hand it is inconstant as hell, although you´re just playing 4-offs you´re heavily dependent on your opening hand and your first four turns. That is where Stax either wins or loses in my opinion and Pridemage enormously weakens this decks gameplan, so Zoo and UGw-decks aren´t that positive matchups anymore. Todays Legacy-Stax in no way can be compared to Vintage-Stax(aggro) ever, where it is still a real powerhouse, and unfortunately is just not as good as it seems, might be or once was. That hurts my heart too, but is the realistic evaluation. Yeah, if I´d be getting new into Legacy with some money in hand I´d get me a playset of Tropicals, Goyfs and Forces first too, as it offers more directions you can go to, e.g. CB-Bant, Bant Aggro/Survival, Canadian Thresh, ... . But, Stax´s huge time will come again, I´m pretty confident of.


Greetz, K1LO

[danzam86]

al-ucard, with the last tournament played, do you think suppression field is definitely better than smokestack in the current metageme? why do you prefer to play 4 magus and 3 prisons?

[Al-ucard]

Smokestack is too slow for the current meta with so many zoo and tribal decks and suppresion just its fine against this matchups. Then I prefer magus with prison the opponent can decide not attack and develop their play and with magus you force them to pay and this slow them. The second reason its why he could block and attack.

[Q-Ball]

Thanks for the report,
I think some of those matches could be seen as you being forced into a reactive mode.
You had no "win" on board. So the person could simply proceed to take his time and build his own win.
In essence, you applied no pressure against him, just obstacles.

Try Lodestone Golem in there. Up the creature count.
Golem in first 3 or 4 turns often puts you in the win zone quickly.
Magus works, no doubt, but he can be taken out rather easily. He's often simply a one turn stall.

[4zureSky]

Suppression instead of stax huh.. then should we call this deck Armageddon Field? :P I definitely know what you're talking about K1LO. This deck can be annoying to play with since it is so inconsistent. But if we are able to make it more consistent this deck will be godly :) And I also played the deck GodBant on MWS. I couldn't do anything at all too since they had answers to everything. I am going to try out the suppression field instead of stax for now and see how I like it. You guys are getting promising results as far as I can see *thumbs up*

[K1LO]

[...]
But if we are able to make it more consistent this deck will be godly :)
[...]
Quoted for truth, nonetheless this is like squaring the circle^^.


Greetz, K1LO

[Q-Ball]

So, what makes this more consistent?
I'd imagine a drawing engine, as tutors in most cases are card disadvantage.

So how can we make this deck draw,

I'd think the first question is, blue has the power to give Stax quite a few options. Has quite a few straight replacement cards as well.

Propaganda
Vedalken Shackles

But is it possible to get both colors?
We like Armageddon/Ravages, but they just need white.
So we keep our 4 mox diamonds.
We can use Trokair to fetch old dual lands, no?

Riftstone portal cements white/green really well. I don't see many of you using it, but I have now put that as a really wanted 2 of. It's something you WANT to sac to smokestack. All of a sudden if your at an advantage, you don't need to take damage off of Ancient tomb, that's great. Or that double white if you want to run it is just fine. Even a double green could be viable.

Is there anything that does this for blue?
Obviously Tundra's. And maybe Shackles is a no go as it won't get you much.

Solemn would let you fetch up lands though, its a 2 for 1 permanent actually, PLUS a can trip.

Infact, I wonder why we don't use him now...

So how do we make this more consistent?

Thirst for Knowledge seems a good one.
Brainstorms decent, but we really want a 3 cmc draw spell.
Howling Mine could be tested interestingly, but that's very hard to call viable. Certainly your attempting to deny resources, and more cards means more ways out of a lock.

[Tychoides]

I have to agree with the general sentiment here regarding this deck. The lack of draw and having to mulligan for really good starting hands is pretty frustrating, which is ironic considering that's what it should be doing to the opponent. Let me also add that if your opponent is playing any sort of elves or decent mana acceleration, even Armageddon is a pretty useless card a lot of times, especially in games 2 or 3 where they might hold some land back.

I think that for this deck to work more consistently, it might have to let go of the white and go with blue like Q-Ball has mentioned and possibly black for some tutoring or spot removal. Maybe a U/B version could work? Probably not a discussion to have in the "Armageddon Stax" thread though, maybe a more general "Stax" thread would be a better option.

[GoldenCid]

Suppression instead of stax huh.. then should we call this deck Armageddon Field?

SP is cool, realy cool. But if we don't run stax we need to support de permanent destruction which SP doesn't give. Wrath?? Powder keg?

[4zureSky]

Since suppression field doesn't give us the permanent destruction maybe, MAYBE we can go for World Queller? We can name whatever we want and we can make it act as an alternative stax. Bad thing about World Queller is that its a creature :( Stp, edicts, and other creature removal spells will take it away from us :( I still find stax useful in some cases but not as much as suppression field =/ With all these people playing fetchlands, wastes, and creature abilties I can say suppression will help us a lot especially against zoo. But like GoldenCid said, what do we replace the stax abillity with?

[Q-Ball]

Why not white/blue?

Propaganda AND Ghostly prison?
The abilities stack, so you could deny an opponent any ability to attack.
Suppression field, sure.
Keep Armageddon.
Do we really need Magus then?

[Jon Stewart]

I'm just wondering as I haven't tried it myself, but could replacing Smokestak with Lodestone Golem help?

It makes the deck more aggressive in many ways as Smokestack takes a couple of turns before it starts to effect the board in any meaningful way.

And by making the deck more aggressive, we wouldn't nearly as reliant on locking down the opponent.

[4zureSky]

If we are going for white/blue stax I think compulsive research will be awesome since we can draw 3 and discard a land card :D And Jace, the Mind Sculptor!
Edit: I am looking at Dream Cache, Exclude, and Borrowing 100,000 arrows right now.

[Isei]

I am very against the Blue splash for a couple different reasons...

First of all, what the deck needs isn't card draw, it's card choice. This is the sort of thing that Canadian Threshold gets by using Ponders or Brainstorms w/ fetchlands. The deck isn't really drawing bunches of cards, it's just getting the ones it needs. Drawing an extra three cards won't do that as often as you'd like; you need tutors. This is one reason I swear by Knight of the Reliquary. He offers you the option of having a toolbox of lands, including wastelands, Kor Haven, Horizon Canopy, Gargoyle Castle, or even Flagstones of Trokair.

I could actually see running some sort of wishboard for Stax, something that no one has ever really tried before (to my knowledge). Options include (most likely) Living Wish or Burning Wish, since Golden Wish costs 5. Living wish would basically replace Knight as a land tutor that can also randomly grab creatures you might need, such as Aven Mindcensor.

So, for the love of Jehova, or whatever gods people worship nowadays, stop worrying so much about card draw, and focus on winning the game. Cheap, easy solutions are often best. Tutors > Card draw.

[_erbs_]

I have to agree on you Isei about knight of the reliquary. His really a nice fight to the deck. But even with knight present the problem with stax is still its very inconsistent hand or draw like what the above poster had posted.

Suppression field is really a nice addition main and removing smokestack in the list for it might be okay..

@Isei
have you tried out suppression main paired with the knight ?

[MULocke]

Supression field affects Knight, btw. My question is, what is Supression Field going to do against decks like Zoo? Make them pay 2 to fetch? It slows down Lavamancer and pridemage, but it's not like they don't have time. You aren't solving any problems, just delaying them; you'll still need to find an answer soon. Smokestack on the other hand is the answer you need. So maybe play them in tandem? Certainly supression field instead of smokestack seems weak.

[Isei]

Smokestack is probably the strongest card in the list, while suppression field doesn't even make the cut for my sideboard anymore.

Also, the entire point of my post was that if you want to increase consistency, use tutors or wishes.

[_erbs_]

@MULocke
Yes, knight and wasteland are affected but droping suppression field 1st or 2nd turn would really give headaches to zoo players who runs 10 fetch atleast.

Smokestack is really a nice card but the problem with it is that you need 4 mana and you must have more board permanents than your opponent. Yes its given that you will surely have the upper hand in droping permanents because of your turbo lands and taxing effects like trinisphere, but even if your running 24-26 lands there are times you'll find it hard to drop more permanents than your opponent.

Smokestack is the screw that locks up your lock while supression field on the other hand is like another taxing effect which i think is very key because cotv , ghostly prison and trinisphere still don't cut it.

If you can't control the board early smokestack is almost a dead card.

[Al-ucard]

If you can't control the board early smokestack is almost a dead card.

And against decks like zoo, canadian, merfolks, goblins and bant decks, pay 4 for take the most useless permanent for the opponent in the next turn its toooooooo slow.

[Isei]

On the contrary, I almost always have more permanents than my opponent. Just because there are times when it's hard to use something doesn't mean you shouldn't be playing it. For example, I run Force of Will in my Candian Thresh deck. But sometimes I don't have a blue card to pitch to it! Force of Will must be bad.

Yeah, it doesn't work that way.

I think most people who play this deck misplay mainly on Smokestack. So, here's a little bit of a mini-guide for it:

1) Smokestack can go higher than 1. I know for some of you this seems obvious, but it isn't for others. You need to take the time to evaluate the board position on every upkeep to figure out if you should add a counter or not. It isn't uncommon for me to ramp it up to 2 or 3-- occasionally 4-- counters. Crucible + Smokestack at 1 isn't the end-all of the deck. You CAN simply use crucible to rebuild after a smokestack at 3 gets sacrificed.

2) See number one. It's very important.

3) A smokestack that does manage to do its job does not always have to be sacrificed. Let's say you're on one land, a crucible, and a smokestack, with a chalice at 1 on the field, an d their opponent with only a single land in play. Many players I've seen will go ahead and sacrifice the smokestack on their upkeep so they can begin to rebuild their mana. However, that is almost always the wrong play. Since your opponent is completely locked out of the game in this position (at least 80% of the time), you have as much time as you want to finish the game. So, wait to draw into the Flagstones or Mox Diamonds to start rebuilding your mana base-- you have no reason to get greedy and try to end the game earlier.

I might add more to this as I think of stuff.

[_erbs_]

@Isei
All your points on the smokestack are valid and true. But you still need 4 mana to able to cast smokestack. Smokestack needs several cards present aswell to be able to work like what the situation you gave. While supression field on the other hand will work instantly even without other cards.

Smokestack is really a powerful card and when i tried playing blue stax with no smokestack i really missed it. I know how strong smokestack is but 4 mana is still 4 mana. There are times in where you don't draw any turbo lands or your lands got hit by wasteland and can't draw a single land even if you have 24-26 lands in your deck.

Like what the other posters have posted above queller might be able to replace smokestack because it almost acts like a smokestack with regards to smokestack it still needs cotv so your opponent don't out play in on the board. Basically they both need support cards but queller is 5cc and might be even harder to cast.

[Misplayer]

The 4 mana argument against Smokestack doesn't really compute with me. The curve of the deck is 3-4 mana. The deck is designed to accelerate into :3: mana on turns 1-2 and :4: mana on turns 2-3. If you can drop a turn 2 Smokestack then your opponent MUST answer it or likely lose.

In a vacuum I can see the arguments against Smokestack (mainly that it has no impact on the board during the turn you play it). But backed up by any of Trinisphere, Ghostly Prison, Magus of the Tabernacle and even Suppression Field itself, Smokestack will win you games. Anything that makes it difficult for your opponent to (a) play spells and (b) deal you damage, when combined with Smokestack, is almost always game over.

Also, Isei nailed it, plain and simple. If you're afraid to ramp Smokestack aggressively then you're doing it wrong.

Think of it this way, Stax is composed of three types of cards: 1 - Mana sources; 2 - Cards that make spells/abilities difficult to play; and 3 - cards that take away opponents resources (and occasionally semi-synergistic win conditions like Elspeth or Baneslayer). Finding the correct combination of these cards to maximize your chances of drawing them is a more valuable discussion then talking about card draw or tutoring, for the simple reason that every slot you dedicate to tutoring/card drawing is a slot you take away from the above 3 card types.

In my opinion, the shell of an Armageddon Stax deck starts with:

Mana Sources:
24-26 Lands
4 Mox Diamond

Taxing Effects:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Ghostly Prison

Resource removal:
4-5 Armageddon / Ravages of War
3-4 Smokestack
2-4 Crucible of Worlds


This leaves you with roughly 4-8 slots for Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Baneslayer Angel, Humility, Moat, Oblivion Ring, Suppression Field, etc.

I think many players tend to cut Smokestack beacause it's perceived as 'slow' but I think Crucible is a better choice to reduce to 3 or even 2. With decks like Zoo, Goblins and Merfolk being so popular, I can't justify reducing the number of taxing effects (and actually increasing them with Suppression Field definitely makes sense to me). The resource removal package should definitely include Smokestack, however, because it can often have the same effect as Armageddon. In some situations Armageddon is better, in some situations Smokestack is better. That's why I would advocate both.

[thebadmagicplayer]

I'm against cutting smokestack completely, however I do agree it's too slow for an aggro heavy meta. supression field seems like a good canadate for slowing down and heavily distrupting zoo to buy us time to draw into lock peices, so I beleve it should be main decked. here is what I'll be testing with:
Legacy Stax

Lands
4 wasteland
4 mishra’s factory
1 kabria crossroads
1 karakas
2 flagstones of trolkair
5 plains
3 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale

Artifacts

4 mox diamond
3 trinnisphere
4 crucible of worlds
2 smokestack
4 chalice of the void

Enchantments
4 ghostly prison
3 oblivion ring
3 suppression field

Creatures
3 magus of the tabernacle

Other Spells
2 Cataclysm
3 Armageddon

Side-Board
2 Humility
1 Trinnisphere
1 Oblivion ring
4 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Smokestack
1 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Zuren Orb
2 Cataclysm

I,ve noticed that people dont give much explanation to why and how they side board; I find this rather dissapointing as 50% to 66% of the games we play in volve the side-board, so I've decided to include how I intend to board the cards along with reasons. Please tell me If you dissagree with anything in the deck-list or in the Way I am side-boarding, so I can think of another way to do it.

Zoo
-2 Smokestack optional:
-1 Trinnisphere -1 chalice
+2 Humility +1 Magus
+1 O. ring

smoke stack is way too slow for zoo. is it good? yes, but too slow so its out in this match up.
humility is in because It will stem the bleading against the masssive beats that will be coming in, and its nice with man lands and ghostly prison.

Merfolk/Goblins
-3 chalice +2 humility
-1 Smokestack +1 Magus
-1 Trinnisphere +1 O. ring

For swarm aggro, Its pretty much the same except chalices are much weaker in this match-up so they will be going out. the humilities and company go in for the same reasons as listed above.

C.B.-top
-1 Prison +2 Smokestack
-1 magus

This one doesn't require much explanation. they have less creatures and smokestack is much more crazy when it is being played against them.

Lands
-1 Trinnisphere +2 Cataclysm
-2 magus +4 Crypt
-4 ghostly prison +1 O.ring

They have no creatures, and all we need to do to win is Oring the mana accelerents, blow up their land and then crypt is it away.

Enchantress
-4 prison +2 Cataclysm/+1 stack/+1 O.ring

this is probably our worst machup since they play more stuff, draw more cards, and can keep up with our S.Stack as a result. Cataclysm makes them "sacrifice" so they cant karmic justice away what we have left. at which point we are in a better position to come back.

A.N.T./T.E.S./D.D.F.L.T./Dream Halls
-3Magus +1 Trinnispere/+2 Z. Orb

no creatures so no need for magus. 3-sphere and zuren orb can put you in a position where they cant win.
Ichorid /Re-animator
-2 Cataclysm +1 O. ring
-3S.field +4 Crypt

crypt is good, the rest is mediocre.

B/W/G –Good Stuff –PT Junk
-2 Chalice +2 Smokestack
-3 Suppression field +2 Humility
+1 O. ring
they have a higher mana curve than other decks, so chalice isnt as usefull. they also have a lower permanent count so smokestack is very usefull. humility and O. ring are there to deal with things like stalker and goyf so they dont kill you immediately.

comments?

[Isei]

I'm starting to think that people don't know how to mulligan with this deck, either. If you don't have a play until turn 3, then you're going to pitch that hand 90% of the time against known matchups, and 100% against unknown matchups.

As for playing against Zoo, I don't see at all how Smokestack is too slow, either in theory or in practice, assuming you aren't keeping the hands that only have 1 land and a Mox Diamond. Against Zoo, a fast Trinisphere, Chalice, or even Ghostly Prison slows them down a ton. This is the point where you want to drop the Stax. If they didn't have enough mana to work through Chalice or Prison in the first place, then they certainly won't while sacrificing even one permanent per turn. After the Smokestack comes down, that's when you start to drop redundant pieces, like a second Ghostly Prison or the Chalice on top of the Trinisphere.

In short, you need ways to actually lock your opponent out of the game, and the odds of you drawing the 3 Armageddons you would need to do that are extremely low. That's where Smokestack comes in. Suppression field DOES hamper Zoo, but they're still attacking you with creatures. If you say that they won't have mana to cast things, you're assuming they kept the all-fetchlands hand, AND you went first, AND you had the mox diamond to be able to play the field, AND had the field in hand. A nacatl on turn 1 still swings for 3 a turn on top of tomb, and you need a way- Smokestack- to remove it at some point.

[thebadmagicplayer]

You may be right, but I'm gonna test it out anyway. I like smokestack but it seems kinda slow to me. worst case scenario: I waste 3 hours testing the zoo match up and cut some of the fields for more stacks.

[K1LO]

@ thebadmagicplayer:

How has Kabira Krossroads been worked for you, as I didn´t test it myself but absolutely don´t like it on paper. Also, I´m not a huge fan of any generic sb-strategies as I´d e.g. never side out Chalice against Goblins/Merfolk if I´m on the play. I hope you see the point. However, the card you´re siding in the most is the 4th Oblivion Ring, which is conform so far with my experience.

This is my current list and although I´ve stated before that the 4th Stack and Trinisphere are definately must-plays, they don´t seem to work in my meta anymore, which has a lot of first-turn Elves/Hierarchs and some Vials.

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra´s Factory
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
6 Snow-covered Plains
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
3 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Chalice of the Void

Sideboard:

3 Tormod´s Crypt
1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgment
2 Aura of Silence
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Trinisphere
1 Smokestack
3 Suppression Field
2 Lodestone Golem/Angels

I´ve actually played the Golems last tournament but only sided them in once against Dragon Stompy, as they work well as an early blocker too. But, I´m absolutely not sure about it yet, playing them over the Angels. On the other hand I´ve never been in the need for the extra-life and Golem just comes down much faster, as the difference between four colorless mana and 5 mana, including to white ones, sometimes takes more than just a single turn.


Greetz, K1LO

[_erbs_]

I would use Nomad Stadium over kabira crossroads.

I would still test supression field more but so far the current meta is having a hard time dealing with it. A better way of seeing supression field is like a mini geddon.

The list i used performed nicely and nuetralized those pesky qasali pridemages. Here was the list i used.

Lands [25]
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
4 wasteland
3 flagstone of trokair
2 savannah
1 kor haven
1 horizon canopy
1 nomad stadium
6 plains

Utilities [28]
4 mox diamond
4 crusible of worlds
3 armageddon
4 ghostly prison
4 trinisphere
4 chalice of the void
3 suppression field
2 smokestack

Creatures [7]
4 Magus of the tabernacle
3 knight of the reliquary

Sideboard [15]
3 oblivion ring
1 smokestack
1 suppression field
2 relic of progenitus
1 tormod's crypt
1 wrath of god
1 Martial Coup
3 baneslayer angel
2 aura of silence

I placed the oblivion ring on the sideboard and it was okay. Normally oring was there for early fat threats like tarmo but almost all decks need duals or fetch to get there green mana thus suppression field could stall them or i could wastelock them via crusible + wasteland lock.

[mchainmail]

If smokestack is too slow in the aggro matchups, what is everyone's thought on a second tabernacle? Sure it's legendary but it's a house.

(Ignore the cost factor.)

[The Wes]

Been playing two tabby main since winter of 06 I think.

[SteakKnife]

I,ve noticed that people dont give much explanation to why and how they side board; I find this rather dissapointing as 50% to 66% of the games we play in volve the side-board, so I've decided to include how I intend to board the cards along with reasons. Please tell me If you dissagree with anything in the deck-list or in the Way I am side-boarding, so I can think of another way to do it.

Zoo
-2 Smokestack optional:
-1 Trinnisphere -1 chalice
+2 Humility +1 Magus
+1 O. ring

smoke stack is way too slow for zoo. is it good? yes, but too slow so its out in this match up.
humility is in because It will stem the bleading against the masssive beats that will be coming in, and its nice with man lands and ghostly prison.

Merfolk/Goblins
-3 chalice +2 humility
-1 Smokestack +1 Magus
-1 Trinnisphere +1 O. ring

For swarm aggro, Its pretty much the same except chalices are much weaker in this match-up so they will be going out. the humilities and company go in for the same reasons as listed above.

comments?

As a FYI, I run my own version of dutch stax but I find that SBing is something that I have trouble finding help with thus I am replying to your post.

For the Zoo/Merfolk/Goblins matchups I find it odd you would remove chalice. Is this only on the draw? I can see where you might remove chalice on the draw against merfolk and goblins due to the Aether Vial. What is your reasoning? I side in choke in most of these matchups as I splash for green.

Chalice on one against Zoo cuts out almost all their burn as well as nacatl/figure/grim/apes. What situation do you do this? On the draw? Against a heavy creature deck of varying cc such as one running kotr/thoctar?

[thebadmagicplayer]

sorry I should have mentioned, they are for when Im on the draw. also If I'm on the play for fish/goblins I only take 2 chalice out. their mana curve is not predominately at one so playing it effectively is harder and costs more.

and preliminary testing with zoo has told me that Suppression field is really good and that smoke stacks needs to be in the deck more. I think I'll put the stack back up to 3 and bring the S. field back down to 2. also cataclysm can set you up for the win with smokestack really easy if you have it ramped to one when you play it. deffinately a keeper.

[Moduloc]

Been playing two tabby main since winter of 06 I think.

If your running to tabernacles what are you taking out of your list. I had thought about two as well but thought running 3 magus and 1 tabernacle was good also. suggestions? thanks.

[4zureSky]

Does the upkeep cost for Pendrell Vale and Magus stack?

[The Wes]

Yes, they stack. I'm not sure what I originally took out to put in 2 Tabernacles, but currently this is what I'm running.

Lands
5 Plains
3 Flagstones
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Tabernacles
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tombs
3 Wastelands
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Savannah

Spells
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon
4 Smokestack
4 Humility
2 Elspeth

Sideboard
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Suppression Field
3 Choke
3 Krosan Grip

The cards keep varying slightly, but overall I keep having more luck with the humility version. When I do run creatures I make a couple changes:
-4 Humility
-2 Elspeth
for
+3 Magus of the Tabernacle
+3 Windborn Muse

Got to say that the 5 Tabernacle effects and 7 Prison effects help a lot if you are really that worried about agro. I'd run ravages of war also but I don't own any and good luck getting them.

[GoldenCid]

Does the upkeep cost for Pendrell Vale and Magus stack?


mmm...yes. If you have a magus + tabernacle in play you must pay (2) por each creature you own and your opo do so.

@The wes: 4 Humility??? Or 2?? I think that cutting elspeth together with humily is not a good idea. Humily + creatures stuff doesn't work very well.
What about lodestone golem??

[The Wes]

If I cut humility, elspeth goes also, or the other way around,its all or nothing with then or so I feel. I've never really liked liked lodestone golem in testing, but I haven't honestly tested it that much.

[Q-Ball]

Testing a new list, improving consistency by more then 4 of a given effect. :confused:
6 anti-attack
5 upkeepers
Smokestack and Suppresion field

Seems to be doing okay.


3 Lodestone Golem
2 Magus of the Tabernacle

4 Armageddon
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
3 Pendrell Mists
3 Propaganda
3 Smokestack
3 Suppression Field
3 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland

[K1LO]

Testing a new list, improving consistency by more then 4 of a given effect. :confused:
6 anti-attack
5 upkeepers
Smokestack and Suppresion field

Seems to be doing okay.


3 Lodestone Golem
2 Magus of the Tabernacle

4 Armageddon
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
3 Pendrell Mists
3 Propaganda
3 Smokestack
3 Suppression Field
3 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
You´re running more white manasources than blue ones, so the 3/3-split between Ghostly Prison and Propaganda absolutely makes no sense. I´ve played Pendrell Mists in U-Stax already and think that Magus of the Tabernacle is still superior although he is a creature, but I´m going to test them again as I´ve never played WU-Stax before. Last but not least you´re missing Chalice of the Void, which is like a cardinal sin^^.


Greetz, K1LO

[Q-Ball]

Chalice becomes sideboard for a few matchups, but there are plenty right now that if your playing second that Goyf goes through.

[Some Guy]

chalice is mainly set at 0 or 1 , I rarely set chalice at 2 unless it is late game.

[Q-Ball]

Right but chalice is proactive. Zoo is the thing to beat right now I feel, as well as fish and goblins.
Chalice is great, but chalice doesn't do a huge amount against them. It helps, but I'd rather have a first turn suppresion field.

[Isei]

Chalice does everything against them! Their best hand against you is 1-drop, followed by turn 2, 2 1-drops. They kill quickly. Not only that, but it shuts off lightning bolt, chain lightning, and path to exile, which would be targeting your Magus, most likely.

[_erbs_]

Against Zoo
Chalice of the Void and Suppression Field are big bombs to them and totally shuts them down. Like what i've said suppression fields are excellent in the current meta. Against zoo i sideout smoketacks and side in my 4th suppression field and several oblivion rings.

[Q-Ball]

And suppresion means they won't get access to their mana, with trini making those one drops three times harder to hit.
I agree, Chalice is amazing.
However, in the zoo matchup I'd rather bring them in as additional hate from sideboard. I want to win the zoo/aggro game one.
And so far start suppresion, then a propaganda affect, has been amazing with waiting a turn for board commitment to geddon out.



3 Lodestone Golem
2 Magus of the Tabernacle

4 Armageddon
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
3 Pendrell Mists
3 Propaganda
3 Smokestack
3 Suppression Field
3 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
I'd really like a fourth Trini, but I'd rather not drop stax. If I do it's for even more propaganda effects or armageddon effects.
I'll playtest with the chalices back in. Maybe the extra support is worth it. My problem with chalice is simple. It stops head bolts, sure. But half the time it doesn't stop a goyf, and it won't stop a goyf on the table. Propaganda and pendrell effects do though. And do it well. Sometimes they have the mana to pay for upkeep, then not to attack. Especially with two on the table.
Trini can take care of the burn.
I'm also dropping a plains for an island, and another for a karibra crossroads.

[GoldenCid]

Other Spells
2 Cataclysm
3 Armageddon


Cataclysm could be a very good replacement for smokestack and it's even synergic with the deck. Suppose the following:

We have a magus, a prison and a crucible. If cataclysm resolves we keep this cards and our opponent will use the unique land to keep his critter and also he won't can attack for a couple of turns while we restore our mana base via crucible.

The problem with clysm is it WW cost. However it can be really solved.

[Oiolosse]

I haven't read the 106 pages of posts but would Fabricate solve any issues? You could lower your trini, stack, etc count and throw in several fabricates for situational use. Your chalice is not set to three and it is unhampered by trini.

[4zureSky]

If you're playing fabricate then you need to play blue. It seems like an awesome tutor card and all since its 3 mana therefore not getting in our way with chalices and trinisphere, but the list is already tight as it is. :(

[Q-Ball]

You have to start balancing it then. Sure, it would be good. Sure you could reduce your 4 of's. But it still costs you 3 mana. And it doesn't get enchantments.

[Misplayer]

Fabricate usually Time Walks you as well, which is something Stax can rarely afford to do.

[GoldenCid]

Fabricate usually Time Walks you as well, which is something Stax can rarely afford to do.

+1

[Oiolosse]

you are right about fabricate, Etutor seems better but you guys seem to chalice at 1 quite often so that seems to be a no go as well.

[DrHealex]

I'm pretty sure Transmute Artifact is THE BEST tutor anyone could ever hope for.

[Isei]

The main problem with Transmute being that it costs UU, something this deck cannot afford. Transmute artifact is indeed strong, but we need something else..

Has anyone played around with the Burning Wish idea at all?

[GoldenCid]

Sorry but i'd like to discuss about brown stax, is this the topic??

[Oiolosse]

mostly brown but we mix in some whiteys to destroy everyone's land.

[4zureSky]

I've tested the suppresion fields main deck and I seem to like it a lot. I don't miss the -1 smokestacks too much since I don't ever need to play it so far. I actually use smokestacks for luring the opponent into countering it then play something else :) So 3 MD suppression field is what I am gonna go for at the moment even though I have 2 Kotrs :rolleyes:

[Lammina]

Hi everybody!

I dont like much of the idea to play cards with 3 less mana curve, thinking in trini and CoTV....

But, other true story about Stax, is the bad draw engine of this deck. In that way, I bring a new idea of tech: Sylvan Library!

Some people are testing Supression Field (2 mana) for soft lock, but, if we forget that idea, and focus in more draw breath???????

Just a idea....

Cyah,

Lammina!

[Isei]

It was generally stated (about a page ago) that Stax doesn't really have the life total to pay bunches of life every turn for one more card. Other than that, it only gives choice 3 cards deep, and you don't have the shuffle effects to abuse it.

[Lammina]

It was generally stated (about a page ago) that Stax doesn't really have the life total to pay bunches of life every turn for one more card. Other than that, it only gives choice 3 cards deep, and you don't have the shuffle effects to abuse it.

Yeah, you are right.

But, in my playtests and analisys of the builds, I came to just one conclusion: the deck NEED a draw source. Dont come tell me "but we have the Canopys!!!".

The deck is VERY dependent of the first hand...and a mulligan to 6-5 can indicate a short breath for your game...

Put ALL the draw responsability in LUCK and Canopys, wont go put the stax in the middle of the Tier 1 decks...

Is a good deck? Of course, but like the combo decks (belcher, for exemple) depends of the initial hand... and WAIT, this isnt a combo deck! Is a control deck!

Sugestions:

-Bottled Cloister.

Can we find a good draw source to the Stax???

Cyah,

Lammina

[Q-Ball]

See thats debatable.
The purpose of draw is to find the rest of lock.
Tutors can GIVE you the rest of the lock, and therefore are superior to draw. Both take up spaces.
A soft lock also gets you the time to find pieces, its all trying to do the same thing.

[Lammina]

See thats debatable.
The purpose of draw is to find the rest of lock.
Tutors can GIVE you the rest of the lock, and therefore are superior to draw. Both take up spaces.
A soft lock also gets you the time to find pieces, its all trying to do the same thing.


QFT.

I will test a new tech: Eternity Vessel.... landfall + CoW = love story!!!!! hehe!

Cyah,

Lammina

[Q-Ball]

Let's see, if you drop smokestack or sideboard it out, that could work. Otherwise getting to 6 can be hard sometimes. Depends on your list, I'm trying to get up to about 6-7 Armageddon effects ;)

Why not Bottled Cloister?
4 colorless, easy to drop turn two even.
Single sided draw effect, and we never play anything in their turn anyway. And it makes our hand immune to attack (which can be a super loss)

[MULocke]

Why not Bottled Cloister?
4 colorless, easy to drop turn two even.
Single sided draw effect, and we never play anything in their turn anyway. And it makes our hand immune to attack (which can be a super loss)

Bottled Cloister makes your hand easier to attack. Krosan Grip seems really bad for you. And you know it's coming in regardless, so you're not going to catch them unprepared. Thus only really good against mono black (the only deck that attacks your hand without access to a naturalize effect).

Eternity Vessel: If you get to six mana and still have a high enough life total to abuse this, why not just drop a win condition or something else devastating like Smokestack? If you're not dying, you have time to attack or just ramp a stack. For vessel to work, you have to get to six fast, but Ancient Tomb doesn't really help so 2-lands can't really be relied upon. Seems really slow.

[K1LO]

I don´t want to sound like an asshole, but:

Suggesting the same "bad" cards like Sylvan Library, Bottled Cloister, Fabricate, Eternity Vessel, ... over and over again makes this threads discussion feel like rewinding it for about every twenty pages, so please stop that and use the thread-search more often, as all of this cards have been discussed more than enough!


Greetz, K1LO

[The Wes]

If the new primer was ever posted at least that would clear them up a little. And yes, all these ideas have been discussed many times throughout this thread.

[Q-Ball]

Fair enough, I didn't think of the repurcussion of a dead cloister.

[Lammina]

I don´t want to sound like an asshole, but:

Suggesting the same "bad" cards like Sylvan Library, Bottled Cloister, Fabricate, Eternity Vessel, ... over and over again makes this threads discussion feel like rewinding it for about every twenty pages, so please stop that and use the thread-search more often, as all of this cards have been discussed more than enough!


Greetz, K1LO

I launch the discussions like a form of we join in journey of launch the Stax in the level of the "deck to beat" in the actual metagame.

I have a GW Knight Stax version (I had played the Exalted Angel version; the Bane version and the lonely Magus version...) and I had BAD... BAD plays with the deck...

Sorry for bring old discussions guys! Of the deep from my heart!

That act is a desperate act ... I dont want sell the deck and mount another, but, with my actual results...

Sorry for all.

Cyah,

Lammina!

[The Wes]

I don't thinks its a problem of reexamining older ideas. I think some, including myself, just get tired of seeing the same card choices brought up ever 5 pages or so without testing or a little searching of the forum. Every 5 pages or so seeing the same card brought up, with no testing or plans, just to get shot down for the same reasons it was the preceding 10 times gets a little frustrating.

If you think of something new, or have a new idea for an old card, either scan some to see if its been brought up, or test it out. I'd love to see more people coming to the thread after actually testing the card out. If someone shoots down a card and you don't agree, test it out. Its not hard with workstation to toss in a few new cards and play against some randoms.

I think there are a few questions that a person should ask themselves about any card that want to add to stax. Does it help the deck with the match-ups that are problematic? Is it hurt overtly by chalice at 1 or trinisphere? What would it replace? Can the mana base handle it? How does it fit the mana curve? Are there better options?

[SteakKnife]

Is the benefit of md Fields really worth making Mishra Factories harder to use if not useless in some cases? I understand post-board where you may want them in but md too?

[K1LO]

I don't thinks its a problem of reexamining older ideas. I think some, including myself, just get tired of seeing the same card choices brought up ever 5 pages or so without testing or a little searching of the forum. Every 5 pages or so seeing the same card brought up, with no testing or plans, just to get shot down for the same reasons it was the preceding 10 times gets a little frustrating.
[...]

That´s the exactly hitting the point! I´m explicit wanting you/us to improve this deck, but please give me at least some testing results like the "I´m playing Suppression Field maindeck guys", rather than just throwing in some cardnames. The reexamining of some older ideas might still be worth it, as this decks environment changes from time to time, but there anyhow has to be a basis for our discussion.


Greetz, K1LO

[Q-Ball]

Using Lodestone golem more often then not if I wait rather long into the game to drop him, the factories never get used. So I've opted them into Darksteel Citadels (immune to the armageddons)

[Moduloc]

What kind of luck have people had running powder keg in the sideboard? It has seem to work well for me aggainst aggro matchups.

[ArthurGress]

Hi there,

I'm new at Stax, i was playing with the Dragon Stompy and i decided to change to this deck.
For the last 3 days I was playing with Stax and the most difficult deck I played with was Aggro Loam.I played
with 3 different players that were using Aggro Loam and I lose all games.

What Stax can do about it? What in the sideboard I can put in after the first game? maybe Suppression fields to deal with seismic assalt? Crypts?

My list

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Mishra's Factory
6 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kor Haven

4 Magus of the Tabernacle
1 Exalted Angel

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Armageddon

Sideboard:

3 Suppression Field
3 Wrath of God
2 Seal of Cleansing
3 Defense Grid
4 Tormod's Crypt

Thanks,

Arthur

[Q-Ball]

That's all about suppression field, it really can lock them out of that matchup, especially a second one.
My new list has had decent matches against the aggro menaces. Considering I'm running 6-8 propaganda effects, they normally need 4 mana to attack with a single creature. And with geddon's and ravages I can keep them off their mana, wasteland locks help too.
Graveyard hate helps wonders against them for sure, it's about getting that Life from the loam removed. The land can just be a pain if they use terravore or similar. But then it can't attack ;)

[SteakKnife]

Hi there,

I'm new at Stax, i was playing with the Dragon Stompy and i decided to change to this deck.
For the last 3 days I was playing with Stax and the most difficult deck I played with was Aggro Loam.I played
with 3 different players that were using Aggro Loam and I lose all games.

What Stax can do about it? What in the sideboard I can put in after the first game? maybe Suppression fields to deal with seismic assalt? Crypts?

Thanks,

Arthur

I just played in a tourney and lost to Aggro Loam as well. The major problems are that they have a faster clock, more card draw, and land destruction/recursion. Suppression Field slows them down quite a lot but you really want to get a chalice on 2 so they can't cast loam. I don't think terravore is used anymore, to my knowledge they only run 4 threats. Goyf, Crusher, Bob, and Assault. Chalice at 2 stops their biggest threat, Loam as well as Goyf and Bob. Tormod's Crypt is great but they likely will bring in K.Grips... and timing the crypt is hard as they can just cycle in response and get the loam back. I'm running Aura of Silence side as it helps against Ant, Enchantress, and the mirror. It can also be used to kill Seismic Assault or Mox Diamonds. Seal of Cleansing has the issue of CC of 2. I am also trying Karmic Justice.

[4zureSky]

Sometimes I think ravenous trap is better than tormods because it surprises them and we can also remove their life that way. The thing is.. we can't hard cast ravenous since we don't have black. Due to all the activated abilities I've switched to 3 MD suppression fields but I only have 23 lands now =/

[Q-Ball]

Why not Leyline of the Void?

[Julian23]

I am also trying Karmic Justice.

Against...Wasteland?! If your goal is to combat Devastating Dreams Karmic Justice will fail.

[The Wes]

23 land? That seems damn dangerous. I'm much happier with 26, but I do turn Tabernacles.

[Arsenal]

If you're running 4x Mox Diamond, I wouldn't go any less than 25 land. 24 is absolute bleeding edge, but with Stax already being inconsistent with it's nonland spell suite, why take the chance?

[SteakKnife]

Why not Leyline of the Void?

If you do not start with it in your opening hand then you only have 4 black sources in your deck...


Against...Wasteland?! If your goal is to combat Devastating Dreams Karmic Justice will fail.

Obviously I do not side Karmic Justice for DD... I have it side for Zoo/GW/Bant Matchups anyways and as Aggro Loam brings in Krosan Grip I thought I might as well try it.

[Al-ucard]

Hi guys, I'm thinking of put some cataclysm MD as a semi geddon effect. What do you think about this card? Anyone have tested it in the past? How it works? Thoughts?

Thanks

[Curby]

I like the idea of Cataclysm and have argued for it in the past, but I think World Queller's probably a better thing to try first given that it can attack and doesn't need WW. If you have access to Ravages, adding a 5th geddon effect would also probably be a better bet. Unlike old-school Death and Taxes, we're not really in a position here to abuse the hell out of Cataclysm. It's great at getting you out of a tough situation, but it's a little unpredictable (and therefore inconsistent) in a deck where inconsistency is arguably its biggest problem.

If you test it, let us know how it does!

[Arsenal]

Queller costs 3WW, so it's colored mana cost is just as prohibitive as Cataclysm's, and Queller's ability takes a full turn before it gets going whereas a resolved Cataclysm is bonkers.

I agree though that Cataclysm is inconsistent, although if you had ANY sort of board presence pre-Cataclysm, you should be in a better position than your unsuspecting opponent.

[Arsenal]

Queller costs 3WW, so it's colored mana cost is just as prohibitive as Cataclysm's, and Queller's ability takes a full turn before it gets going whereas a resolved Cataclysm is bonkers.

I agree though that Cataclysm is inconsistent, although if you had ANY sort of board presence pre-Cataclysm, you should be in a better position than your unsuspecting opponent post-Cataclysm.

[Curby]

Whoops, forgot he's white, heh. Good catch.

When Cat was posted before, it was acknowledged that it's very useful at getting you out of situations that Geddon alone can't solve. Elf(-survival) decks are mighty popular, and a mere Geddon won't do much once they get some Priest-like critters on the board. The first pays for upkeep and the second lets them smash you. When things get out of hand, Cat's admittedly wonderful. I guess the question is how often things get out of hand, and whether furthering our game plan with similar effects like Queller and Ravages is a better idea.

Has anyone actually tested the damn thing recently?

[_erbs_]

Catacylsm is really a good card but the problem with it is that white stax is very slow in recovering and other decks have a faster recovery time thus it was cut in the past. If you want to use it you have to tweak your deck for it.

Queller is a very slow card for a ww3 casting that doesn't do anything when it hits the board you have to wait a turn before its ability triggers.

I would rather pick suppression field over cataclysm as it acts almost like a geddon for somedecks.

[Al-ucard]

I'm thinking in clysm like a subpar geddon effect and because this deck needs some reactive than preventive cards. In case that you have tabernacle and opponent a lot of creatures, the effect if you draw cataclysm is near the same than if you draw geddon. Opponent would keep only a beater and you a 2/6 that slows them, and expect that more taxing cards like a field/trinity/prison...

Another card I think I would consider in the decks with suppresion field MD is Ghost Quarter. So if you have crucible and field, opponent will fetch for basic lands to pay for other fetch they will draw. Maybe having access to kill basics with quarter helps...

[4zureSky]

Yea.. I tried playing against some random deck today with 23 lands.. it was horrible :( I waited 3-4 turns just for another land haha. I am going to put it back to 26 lands and lower the number of o.rings I guess. I love the MD suppression fields still :D And I really recommend 5 armageddon effects as I myself invested in two ravages around a month ago. The prices for the ravages lowered a bit so better get em' now before it goes back up! I was never a fan of cataclysm as it costs a total of converted 4 which I already have enough of those in stax.. Ghost Quarter is almost like a strip mine to the opponent except that it doesn't always work like one. It really depends on the MU so I didn't include GQ and kept my 4 wastelands instead. I had 3 wastelands MD with 5 plains before, but now I am switching back to 4 wastelands MD and 4 plains since people seem to be playing more non-basics as they seem to be fighting fire with fire.

[Al-ucard]

Yea.. I tried playing against some random deck today with 23 lands.. it was horrible :( I waited 3-4 turns just for another land haha. I am going to put it back to 26 lands and lower the number of o.rings I guess. I love the MD suppression fields still :D And I really recommend 5 armageddon effects as I myself invested in two ravages around a month ago. The prices for the ravages lowered a bit so better get em' now before it goes back up! I was never a fan of cataclysm as it costs a total of converted 4 which I already have enough of those in stax.. Ghost Quarter is almost like a strip mine to the opponent except that it doesn't always work like one. It really depends on the MU so I didn't include GQ and kept my 4 wastelands instead. I had 3 wastelands MD with 5 plains before, but now I am switching back to 4 wastelands MD and 4 plains since people seem to be playing more non-basics as they seem to be fighting fire with fire.

Ok so... in your list with md fields, witch cards do you quit to fit the 5th geddon effect?

[SteakKnife]

Another card I think I would consider in the decks with suppresion field MD is Ghost Quarter. So if you have crucible and field, opponent will fetch for basic lands to pay for other fetch they will draw. Maybe having access to kill basics with quarter helps...

I've been playing GQ for a year or so and I actually use it on my own lands just to find a white source more often than I use it on my opponent's lands... I'm likely removing it for a plains or a karakas if I ever get one.

[Q-Ball]

Time for a list change; been testing and playing with this. And although the consistency of my last list (WU with 6 propaganda effects and multiple upkeepers and taxes) has been good. Sometimes you need that other piece, and you topdeck for it.
I know tutors have been suggested. But we have so many things we want to maindeck, we can't do it consistently.
They're not all threats unlike many other decks.

So I think it's time for tutors.
Also I played a few games with gemstone mine, never having an issue. Odd no? Not really, with 4 geddon's or more, and smokestack, you can always bring it back with fresh counters. It's a shame I don't need more WU sources with 4 tundra's and 3 flagstones.

2 Lodestone Golem
2 Magus of the Tabernacle

4 Armageddon
4 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ravages of War
2 Ghostly Prison
3 Mox Diamond
2 Pendrell Mists
2 Propaganda
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Suppression Field
3 Trinisphere
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Enlightened Tutor

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Suppression Field
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Propaganda
1 Trinisphere
2 Smokestack
1 Chalice of the Void

[4zureSky]

Ok so... in your list with md fields, witch cards do you quit to fit the 5th geddon effect?

This is my deck list today:
Lands
4 wasteland
4 ancient tomb
3 flagstone of trokair
3 city of traitors
1 kor haven
1 karakas
1 horizon canopy
4 plains
2 savannah
Creatures
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 KoTr

Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War
3 O. Ring
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Trinisphere
3 Suppresion Field
2 Smokestacks

I took out the mishra's because the suppresion fields got in the way, but now I have too little lands and need to push it back to 26 lands because I feel like I don't have enough from time to time. I think 26 lands is that magic number for stax. Im thinking of cutting one O.ring and one suppression field for 2 mishra's factory so that way I'll have more mana and I'll still have my suppressions for w/e I don't want my opponents to activate. Suggestions? Thanks!

[Al-ucard]

I think I definetely will quit stacks, its a card that I like too, but always I draw it I think I will prefer an inmediate answer like Magus, geddon, o.ring... Another card I will put instead KoTr is Baneslayer Angel, gain life and flying are worth it.

For now this is my list:

25 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Mishra's factory
1 Karakas
3 Flagstones of trokair
4 Wasteland
7 Plains

6 Creatures
2 Baneslayer Angel
4 Magus of the tabernacle

29 Others
4 Chalice of the void
4 Crucible of worlds
4 Mox diamond
3 Suppresion Field
3 Trinisphere
3 Armageddon
2 Cataclysm
3 Ghostly prison
3 Oblivion ring

60 Total

15 Sideboard
3 Aura of silence
4 Tormod's crypt
3 Sphere of law
1 Trinisphere
2 Silent Arbiter
1 Suppresion Field
1 Ghostly prison

If I can afford ravages of war I surely will quit the clysms, but for now I will test them. Then, I have 2 free slots and I don't know what to put (2 Silent Arbiter)... Thoughts?

[4zureSky]

Krosan grips will help quite a bit. And since you don't have Kotr I would suggest damping matrix against zoo decks, and tribal decks with vial like goblin or merfolks. I only took them out because I needed the toolbox effect from KoTr. I haven't tried baneslayer yet because its quite a lot to cast it. I do love the lifelink and flying though :) Oh yea.. I just took a look at your list again and you don't play green haha silly me.

[Moduloc]

Krosan grips will help quite a bit. And since you don't have Kotr I would suggest damping matrix against zoo decks, and tribal decks with vial like goblin or merfolks. I only took them out because I needed the toolbox effect from KoTr. I haven't tried baneslayer yet because its quite a lot to cast it. I do love the lifelink and flying though :) Oh yea.. I just took a look at your list again and you don't play green haha silly me.


Baneslayers are great, They are pretty easy to get out early with city, tombs and diamonds. Most likely you wont see her till you have a solid lock anyways. They are way more resilant than KoTr. Also they can fly over your opponents prisoned dudes.

[4zureSky]

Baneslayer sounds really tempting and I wanna conform and all but they're so expensive! I doubt the price of them will ever go down =/

[Moduloc]

You could always go with exalted angel. She is very easy to get out and she can turn around a game against aggro just like Baneslayer. Unfortunatly she will probably go down in price a bit but not much. good luck.

[Curby]

Excuse me? Are we all new at Magic here? Baneslayer is a card that works in like one eternal deck, and her slot there is contested. In other words, it's only a matter of time.

Let's talk about some recent chase rares: Bitterblossom is now less than half the price it was at its peak. Cryptic Command is now less than half the price it was at its peak. Cards that go in many decks (fetches, duals) and those that can be easily splashed in (Tarmogoyf) stay pricey. Thoughtseize is generally useful and splashable, but even it has gone down a bit. I just don't see Baneslayer staying at $60.

[Moduloc]

Excuse me? Are we all new at Magic here? Baneslayer is a card that works in like one eternal deck, and her slot there is contested. In other words, it's only a matter of time.

Let's talk about some recent chase rares: Bitterblossom is now less than half the price it was at its peak. Cryptic Command is now less than half the price it was at its peak. Cards that go in many decks (fetches, duals) and those that can be easily splashed in (Tarmogoyf) stay pricey. Thoughtseize is generally useful and splashable, but even it has gone down a bit. I just don't see Baneslayer staying at $60.

Yes you are correct but it gets played plenty in extended, also its a choice card among casual players. Casuals seek out this card as much as competitive constructed players. (Baneslayer doesnt seel for $60 it sells for $40.) She will always be a card many people will want to hold on to.

[Arsenal]

Yes, and if she gets reprinted in M11 (and after Jund rotates our of Standard), I suspect she'll remain a $40-50 chase rare.

Anyway, I've decided to sell this deck for a playset of Tundra and a playset of Flooded Strand. Stax is just too inconsistent for my tastes. It's been fun guys.

[4zureSky]

Noooo~~ :( What are you planning to play then? Landstill.. countertop..? Stax > those!

[Moduloc]

He'll be back. I have both those built as well and Stax is by far the most fun to play. I dont see why he cant play them both.

[ArthurGress]

I saw some lists with Karakas but i didnt understand why they are using them, can anybody tell me why? ;)

I was testing a list that uses 3 Magus and 2 Exalteds(baneslayers are much expensive), but i decided to change to 4 magus and 1 exalted because I really missed a fourth magus, since the bests decks in legacy today are aggro, merfolk, zoo, goblins... It helped me a lot and I wouldnt run less then four of them. I tried a list using 6 creatures, with 2 exalted, cutting 1 trinesphere, but a first turn trinesphere is very nice, so i added a fourth trinesphere and reduced the exalteds to 1.
I've been playing with this deck and I noticed that one of the problems i had was against decks that uses crucible of worlds, loam, and this Land/graveyard strategy. Sometimes i really miss a fourth ring, but i reallly dont know what to remove.

What you guys think about Elspeth?

[AnwarA101]

I saw some lists with Karakas but i didnt understand why they are using them, can anybody tell me why? ;)



You can bounce Iona with it.

[conboy31]

You can bounce Iona with it.

Gaddock Teeg too.

[4zureSky]

I saw some lists with Karakas but i didnt understand why they are using them, can anybody tell me why? ;)

I was testing a list that uses 3 Magus and 2 Exalteds(baneslayers are much expensive), but i decided to change to 4 magus and 1 exalted because I really missed a fourth magus, since the bests decks in legacy today are aggro, merfolk, zoo, goblins... It helped me a lot and I wouldnt run less then four of them. I tried a list using 6 creatures, with 2 exalted, cutting 1 trinesphere, but a first turn trinesphere is very nice, so i added a fourth trinesphere and reduced the exalteds to 1.
I've been playing with this deck and I noticed that one of the problems i had was against decks that uses crucible of worlds, loam, and this Land/graveyard strategy. Sometimes i really miss a fourth ring, but i reallly dont know what to remove.

What you guys think about Elspeth?

Yea, what the people above me have said. We can bounce Iona and Gaddock Teeg which are the most annoying creatures against stax in my opinion. I sideboarded a 4th Magus instead of maindecking it due to the tight list :x I've tried elspeth and didn't like it since it costs two white and since we are playing elspeth we also need moat if we're playing. And moats are crazy expensive like ravages, but I think ravages are a better investment over time. I've tried exalted angel before.. but I would rather go for Kotr. Though I am not too sure about baneslayer.

[SteakKnife]

Has anyone tried Bojuka Bog yet? I'm thinking of running it as a one of.

If I run a single scrubland than perhaps the deck can support running Leyline of the Void SB like Q-Ball suggested...

That would provide 6 black sources to the deck. Scrubland can be searched for by Flagstone and Bog can be fetched by KotR if anyone still runs it.

Bog would be a recursive uncounterable way to deal with graveyards.

[Q-Ball]

Not a bad idea.
Ive been trying to make the aggro match winable. For me, this means 6-8 propaganda affects, 5-6 armageddons, suppresion fields, and even possibly a DoJ/WoG. This of course weakens the hell out of a few other matchups.

I'm now testing KotR and I must say he really helps quite a bit, he's like a lodestone of sorts, a good heavy beater that must be answered, but with less utility in this deck I feel.

[Moduloc]

Ive thought about a version with black I dont know if its worth going that route yet.

[Curby]

My concern would be that it doesn't produce white, unlike the Canopy and Savannah "splash lands" that Wg lists use. The recursion and uncounterable nature are appealing, but shrug. If you end up testing it, please let us know what you see. =)

[GoldenCid]

Ive thought about a version with black I dont know if its worth going that route yet.

Exactly. I think that grave decks aren't the biggest problem of this deck.

[ArthurGress]

Exactly. I think that grave decks aren't the biggest problem of this deck.

As I said some posts before, grave isnt the problem, the biggest problems was agaist decks that uses crucible of worlds and loam.
I played at least 6 games against aggro loam, and i lost all games.
When I sideboarded against them I putted in S.Fields against seismic assault, crypts against their grave, but it didnt stopped them.
Their have more draws, more kill conditions,
My principal meta right now is try to find something that can help me, at least get a chance of winning.

[ArthurGress]

Exactly. I think that grave decks aren't the biggest problem of this deck.

As I said some posts before, grave isnt the problem, the biggest problems was agaist decks that uses crucible of worlds and loam.
I played at least 6 games against aggro loam, and i lost all games.
When I sideboarded against them I putted in S.Fields against seismic assault, crypts against their grave, but it didnt stopped them.
Their have more draws, more kill conditions,
My principal meta right now is try to find something that can help me, at least get a chance of winning.

[SteakKnife]

As I said some posts before, grave isnt the problem, the biggest problems was agaist decks that uses crucible of worlds and loam.
I played at least 6 games against aggro loam, and i lost all games.
When I sideboarded against them I putted in S.Fields against seismic assault, crypts against their grave, but it didnt stopped them.
Their have more draws, more kill conditions,
My principal meta right now is try to find something that can help me, at least get a chance of winning.

Decks that abuse loam seem to be the biggest problem for me as well. Unless I land a CotV on 2 early they outdraw and out permanent us quickly...

Which is why I am trying to get Leyline on board as it works against 43 lands, aggroloam, and reanimator.

[Al-ucard]

Graveyard decks are not a problem, and graveyard decks do nothing in a meta full of blue decks (bant, merfolks, canadian...). The main problem I have playing this deck are bant decks, with so many resources, so many big creatures and NOBLE HIERARCH, first turn hierarch ruins all our chances to do nothing against this deck.

In the last tournament of 92 people I played (the report is in page 104) I do 5-0-2, only losed against bant decks.

This is just why I think too in a black splash, but to put 4 perish in sideboard.

[4zureSky]

I agree with Alu.. Bant decks were something I've had trouble in the past. I've beaten aggro loam several times before but it wasn't easy. Bant decks have every little thing that you wouldn't like. And noble hierarchs are annoying because they provide exalted and mana. Even though you blow up their lands they still have the noble hierarchs which can help them win. Choke in sb is my best card against them and maybe defense grid. Other than that.. I have no idea how to deal with them.

[Al-ucard]

In the tournament I mentioned early, in my first match against a survibant I started with choke and opponent first turn was taiga and hierarch ;-p. In the second match against bant, opponent played some hierarchs and choke doesn't avoid opponent to play everything. In my third match against a bant deck I finally side in other cards instead instead chokes xD

Choke does nothing to this deck and if its a survival Bant does NOTHING XD

This is why in the first moment against this deck I was thinking in a card that does anything against green creatures (not only for hierarch, but also for qasali, goyf, warmonk...) Then my first thought was hibernation, but I think that destroy the creatures is better than put them into hand so maybe perish is the card we are seeking.

Oh! Another card I would like to test in side is Wash out for its versatility.

[thebadmagicplayer]

I think that the new biggest threat is from bant counter top, and bant NO to as they can gat a 3 or 4 drop on top very easily now, and that just ruins your day.

[Al-ucard]

I don't agree with that, Its near impossible that they could activate top with 3 fields MD and 1 in side.

[Moduloc]

I agree I've had problems with that list due to the amount of three and four drops. I would if we should pack some more five and six drops. I was looking a austrie command to deal with their boys and wipe counterbalance off the board.

[thebadmagicplayer]

seems like an awful choice... its too expensive and hits our own stuff. I cant think of anything else better off the top of my head though.

[Moduloc]

your right ghostly prison, o ring. Why didnt I see that. :\

[4zureSky]

Maybe it is not the time of period for stax.. when people expect it least we all bring our stax decks and whoop everyone! :D But yea.. I am fresh out of ideas for sideboard cards against bant ct or survival besides the ones I have already said :'(

[Q-Ball]

Why not just make it so they can't attack you?
Seems like Ghostly Prison/Propaganda + Armageddon's good unless they have two hierarchs? And if you've got a Magus or what not out they might not be able to keep those.

[Al-ucard]

The main problem against Bant decks is that you need almost all the cards the deck has, so we have to see first witch cards you could quit and then put the cards you want in.

In my list i think the cards I could quit are Trinispheres and Baneslayer angel. Then I prefer put Defense grid because counterspells and Tsunami instead chokes.

So:

-3 Trinisphere +3 Defense grid
-2 Baneslayer Angel +2 Tsunami

This way you have a card that is better against counters (with grid fows cost the same that with sphere and daze cost 3 and a land) and meanwhile we have 6 geddon effects to destroy its lands.

[Moduloc]

I don't agree with that, Its near impossible that they could activate top with 3 fields MD and 1 in side.
What matchups have you found the fields to be useless or near useless? I debting at this weekends tournament to maindeck them.

[raudo]

No chance at all against Bant.

Maybe some of the cards below may help?

Wrath of God -> Get rid of annoying Hierarchs faster than Smokestack
Maze of Ith -> Keep the biggest exalted creature in control
Parallax Wave -> Interesting old school Angel Stompy card, buys time against Zoo too.

[Al-ucard]

What matchups have you found the fields to be useless or near useless? I debting at this weekends tournament to maindeck them.

Basically combo, decks without fetchlands (dredge comes to mind). Put them MD, you will not regret, first turn suppresion its near GG against a lot of decks.

[Moduloc]

Al-ucard, do you put smokestax in the board, if not what do you side for different matchups? thanks.

[Al-ucard]

I don't play smokestacks, they are too slow to play against ant, zoo and Bant with retainer/iona decks (basically my meta)

[Moduloc]

I chose to main Suppresion fieilds like you suggested and I was so happy with the result. It feels so much like a second chalice. It was amazing. After playing it the whole tournament I just realized how dead smokestack really is. Four mana and wait a turn to do anything, ugg.
Round one against reanimater was a cake walk. My life total never dipped below twenty both games. Round two was the grinder, Lands. I had him both games had I drawn into at least one armageddon. Guess what, I didnt. We went to time with a draw. Suppresion field against lands is just plain ugly. round three was zoo, how I hate zoo, he took me 2-1. Always just one more turn alway from stabilizing. I have only ever lost to zoo in tournaments before with this deck. Round four, Dredge, this is such a bad matchup for dredgel. Game one even is bad for them. What am I missing with zoo? theres got to be something or something im not doing right, suggestions. thanks.

[Al-ucard]

Against zoo you only need to draw chalice/prison/magus to have time until you play geddon and then you will stabilize, and if you have suppresion in play its near GG. Maybe you have bad luck...

Actually I'm tinkering with an aggro stax deck, maybe I will play with it next weekend in a big tournament.

[Moduloc]

Against zoo you only need to draw chalice/prison/magus to have time until you play geddon and then you will stabilize, and if you have suppresion in play its near GG. Maybe you have bad luck...

Actually I'm tinkering with an aggro stax deck, maybe I will play with it next weekend in a big tournament.

how many magus do you run in your build?

[Al-ucard]

Now I'm playing with 4 magus and 2 baneslayer angel. Magus is one of the 2 cards that seals the game, the other is Armageddon XD

[4zureSky]

I think it is crucial for us to get The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale due to all the aggro around. The thing is.. that ONE card is about the price of 4 baneslayers :( maybe more.

[The Wes]

I never play without mine.

[Vesper Ghoul]

This may be in here somewhere but I have been looking and didn't see it so I'll just ask. Why Suppression Field over Damping Matrix? Is it just for Daze protection? or slightly more likely turn one?

[Dino]

This may be in here somewhere but I have been looking and didn't see it so I'll just ask. Why Suppression Field over Damping Matrix? Is it just for Daze protection? or slightly more likely turn one?

Supression field hits lands (Fetchlands, wastelands, manlands, ports, etc)

[Vesper Ghoul]

Yup okay makes sense wasn't thinking about it that way. I actually wasn't remembering Damping Matrix correctly.

[Moduloc]

I think it is crucial for us to get The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale due to all the aggro around. The thing is.. that ONE card is about the price of 4 baneslayers :( maybe more.

I run one in the main and one in the sideboard. Against many matchups ill grab the second. Im debating putting it in the main but I dont know what Ill take out for it.

[Some Guy]

if angelheart vial isnt fake and is as spoiled. it seem like it could be a decent 1 of or 2 of possibly. I just dont know how slow it would play out yet.

[Moduloc]

I thought about this card at first as well. It just seems to slow and doesnt dampin aggro the way we want it.

[GoldenCid]

This weekend i played agaisnt a very interesting list of stax with my landstill, i was 1-1.
His techs were:

Academy rector: Yep. A great chump blocker or just You don't pay the magus upkeep to go for your best enchantment concerning the circurnstances: O-ring, Prison, moat (yes he had moat besides taberlacle!!)

Maze of ith: I think this was propesed before.

In side: Open the vaults.

Comments?

[Moduloc]

I like the idea of academy rector I just wonder what you would take out to fit grandma in? I think that kor haven is the land of choice over the maze. It taps for mana which is needed in the deck over dedicating a land drop to a non mana producer. The problem with open the vaults is often the first thing your opponent whacks is your chalices and they all would be set a zero doing next to nothing. Also If your to a point where you making this card worthwhile you have probably already lost. If your winning then chances are your board postition is already solid enough that you wont need it. I run moat in my side so that my magus and my factories can attack. I only bring moat in for an aggro matchup.

[GoldenCid]

I think you could take out an O-ring for the rector...due that we'd have 4 virtual copies of him plus 5 of prison (which has a global effect).

Chalice is the minus for me to return with open tha vaults. I want back trinis and prison...o-ring...

I agree respect haven.

[Tangle.Wire]

Maybe it is not the time of period for stax.. when people expect it least we all bring our stax decks and whoop everyone! :D But yea.. I am fresh out of ideas for sideboard cards against bant ct or survival besides the ones I have already said :'(

Hi everyone, as i am new to this deck/thread i wondered about this fact. I Played Dreadstill/Counterbalance by now and always get stomped by tribal/aggros so thats the reason why i wanted to try out this deck. I just ordered nearly the whole package needed 4min ago but i will miss tabernacle, elspeth and baneslayers so i will come up with this list:

3 Magus of the tabernacle
2 exalted angel
1 Hoofprints of the stag (not sure what to play till i get the elspeth)

4 ghostly prison
3 trinisphere
3 smokestack
4 chalice of the void
4 mox diamond
3 crucible of worlds
4 oblivion ring
4 armageddon

4 flagstones of trokair
4 mishras factory
4 wasteland
3 crystal vein (missing city of traitors also)
4 ancient tomb
6 plains

Sideboard:

2-3 Light of Day
2 Day of judgment
1 wrath of god
4 graveyard hate (crypts/traps or wheel of sun and moon?)
x supression field (what is it really needed for?)
x
x
x

[The Wes]

Don't have much time, but I'll quickly say that for me Elspeth has only really been needed when you run humility main. I'd remove the hoofprints for another magus. Need to get those city of traitors soon too. :) I'd never go bellow 4 crucible main so I'd try to get that up to 4. Also remove a flagstone for a kor haven and one other land for a karakas. Will post more later.

[Tangle.Wire]

I think about the mainboard there is not really much difference but i would like to know what/how to board against the common legacy decks.

[Al-ucard]

City gives you 2 mana always since you play a land, Vein only gives you 2 mana once.

[Tangle.Wire]

Honestly, it took me some ours to read pages 1-20, 50-80 and 80-100 this day and by knowing this i wouldn't have posted my list at all, as i said i understand the difference between city and veins, but i will play them till i can affort a playset cities, i ordered 90% of the deck today and now i am completly out of $$ ^^

I think i read enought to have a feeling about my maindeck even without played it yet but i think as many people said the list is not that good on the actual meta as there is a lot of dreadstill/depths/progenitus out there but i think at least with a sideboard tech thos matchups are still winable.

I thought of Light of Day and Ensnaring bridge, beside not getting moats in the future and not like to play humility that much i thought running the Light of Day in the sideboard against depths/stalkers/progenitus would be enough, while dreadnoughts can be stopped with chalice, trinisphere or oblivion ringe (in fact here its a matter of timing and our and opponents hand)

Ensnaring bridge also looks nice but i have the feeling that humility/wrath of god or stuff like that would just do a better job here.

[_erbs_]

Honestly, it took me some ours to read pages 1-20, 50-80 and 80-100 this day and by knowing this i wouldn't have posted my list at all, as i said i understand the difference between city and veins, but i will play them till i can affort a playset cities, i ordered 90% of the deck today and now i am completly out of $$ ^^

I think i read enought to have a feeling about my maindeck even without played it yet but i think as many people said the list is not that good on the actual meta as there is a lot of dreadstill/depths/progenitus out there but i think at least with a sideboard tech thos matchups are still winable.

I thought of Light of Day and Ensnaring bridge, beside not getting moats in the future and not like to play humility that much i thought running the Light of Day in the sideboard against depths/stalkers/progenitus would be enough, while dreadnoughts can be stopped with chalice, trinisphere or oblivion ringe (in fact here its a matter of timing and our and opponents hand)

Ensnaring bridge also looks nice but i have the feeling that humility/wrath of god or stuff like that would just do a better job here.

Hello,
You might want to try something this first to atleast give you an idea on how and what is stax all about. I love playing this deck but gave up on it due to its inconsistency, there are times it will give you good hands and there are just times in where the deck sucks big time. Im not discouraging you or anything stax is a good deck but for me it currently needs some cards that could make it a tier 1 deck.

Creatures [6]
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Exalted Angel

Mana [29]
4 Mox Diamond
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Kor Haven
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
7 Plains

Utilities [25]
4 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Crusible of Worlds
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Suppression Field
2 Smokestack

Sideboard
4 Oblivion Ring
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Defense Grid
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 => meta call

For your question whats suppresion field for its to stop the following early on so you could establish board position:
- wasteland
- fetch lands
- pernicious deed

Good luck

[Tangle.Wire]

Thx for the help, i almost think the main reason why i would play S. Fields would be divining top and survival, of course deeds/ee beeing dead cards is also nice but i am not sure if it is that good in the maindeck as i am going to play factories, wastelands on myself. I think i will try it in my sideboard as i will have the space there.

why do we only run 1 kor haven? as we don't have any tutors for it which seems pretty random to me.

I am also afraid of just running 2 exalteds as potential win conditions, i think winning with 2-3 factories won't happen as often as it seems on the paper. Maybe getting 2 elspeth will be the best way to finish the deck as exalted/baneslayer angel can't be that much different at all, as exalted can hit the table much faster so the 4/5 to 5/5 isn't necessary to me. The first strike ability will be nice facing creatures but as i want to play other stuff to stop creatures the angels shouldn't be played for this role.

i am not sure having read about it but is eternal dragon playable any way or are the costs for it to tough? i would like to cycle/receive it but by stax/armageddon etc i don't trust in hardcasting it from the hand.

-> A friend of me played a red splash with 2 plateau and played goblin trenches which where amasing in the games we played as he was able to make tokens eot and without that much drawback, also it feeds the stack very well and one game he was able to use it for his city of traitors when he played lands or even when he played armageddon with 2 mana open. I am not 100% sure if it was just luck against me but i feld like the card was pretty good, but i can't remember what he actually played red for as the trenches where not the main reason.

[Moduloc]

Suppression field hits a lot more than what you stated, it hits fetch lands, aethervial, buyback spells, nev. disk, maze of ith, shall I go on. Al-ucard convinced me to drop smokestax for fields and it is just plain bonkers. As far as kor haven its legendary so you dont want to run more than one also it taps for colorless and we need to hit white once and a while. playing trenches sounds terrible. we want our lands and elsepth does the same thing but only better.

[4zureSky]

There is a new card that allows us to search for up to four lands and it is similar to a fact or fiction that is green! It seems pretty useful as of right now, but I am now sure yet. http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=mtg/tcg/riseoftheeldrazi/spoiler

[Tangle.Wire]

Suppression field hits a lot more than what you stated, it hits fetch lands, aethervial, buyback spells, nev. disk, maze of ith, shall I go on. Al-ucard convinced me to drop smokestax for fields and it is just plain bonkers. As far as kor haven its legendary so you dont want to run more than one also it taps for colorless and we need to hit white once and a while. playing trenches sounds terrible. we want our lands and elsepth does the same thing but only better.

hmn by cc 2 it sounds pretty fair, but i think i definitly gonna run 3 smokestack also.. another question as i saw people cutting oblivion ring to the sideboard i thought of using oblation, i read about it some pages ago but there was not much said about it but i like the idea of rescue a permanent or just remove a threat and let them draw the 2 cards instead of losing to it.

[_erbs_]

hmn by cc 2 it sounds pretty fair, but i think i definitly gonna run 3 smokestack also.. another question as i saw people cutting oblivion ring to the sideboard i thought of using oblation, i read about it some pages ago but there was not much said about it but i like the idea of rescue a permanent or just remove a threat and let them draw the 2 cards instead of losing to it.

@Tangle.Wire
I suggest trying suppression field first before decide to put it on the SB slot. Its is 1st turn bomb to some decks. Actually the mishra and exalted angels are backup win condition. Your real win condition here is Magus. Stax is not a fast deck, you need to control the board first before you start pounding your opponent.

An early wasteland by your opponent on your turbo lands will really hurt you and you don't need to kill your opponents lands early since you have a geddon to sweep them. If you didn't notice it stax's mana base is very fragile.

As for the 1 kor haven and nomad stadium you don't need it that much its just a tech card, if you don't feel like playing them replace with plains.

As for the exalted and baneslayer angel issue, if have access to BSA i would pick BSA over exalted but if you don't its the best support creature for stax at the moment. Again your finisher here is magus of the tabernacle and NOT the angels or the factories. The factories are just blockers and later on can act as finishers aswell. Stax is all about board position and board control.

As for the oblivion ring issue, well yes orings are nice main board and you have some sort of temporary removal but suppression field is much better for me.

[Xaul Zan]

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/stf/stf84_jkgvbstyfdturbs.png.

[Tangle.Wire]

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/stf/stf84_jkgvbstyfdturbs.png.

looks nice, defintly better for this deck than the vial but i think elspeth is still better than him so i would play a 3rd elspeth over gideon.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

looks nice, defintly better for this deck than the vial but i think elspeth is still better than him so i would play a 3rd elspeth over gideon.

In a deck like this, you have the resources to keep your planeswalkers alive for a while, so I might split him 2 Elspeth 1 Gideon. The added creature kill ability is nice, he can buy you time against your opponent or clear their blockers, and he beats harder than Elspeth. I kinda like him.

[Al-ucard]

Last saturday I went to a 98 people tournament with stax. I droped after losing the fourth time in the 5th round because mulligans and bad draws.

The first round I win against a survival deck. Then I remember losing against a locked canadian deck with trinisphere and chalice @1 because I do myself more than 15 damage in each game since I didn't draw a non-damage land, only drawed canopies and tombs. Then I losed against rock survival for not draw lands in the first round, only see goyfs in this match. In the second game I losed against a lone topdecked gaddock teeg because I side out the orings since I reconigze him as some kind of eva green player in first round XD. In the fourth round I losed against a weird survival combo deck for draw poorly and because (another time) teeg with orings out. Finally in the fifth round I losed against merfolks, bad draws and bad playing since I was thinking of go home.

Last time I go with stax I have a good day winning 5 times (14th of 92 people). This time I dropped after lost 4 times. This deck its too dependant of luck, and then, if you have a good hand always opponent could play first turn hierarch and then its the same that you start with trinisphere or suppresion they could play second turn land and do everthing.

Anyway, this time I tested 2 cards that I enyojed a lot, the first one was aven mindcensor, I think that has a lot of potential. In the 5 rounds I played against 3 survival decks and this guy is a bomb against them. I remember win a game against a survival combo deck (with led and kor that puts artifacts in play) playing 3 of them. Was a five minutes match heheh

The second card I tested was wash out. The problem is that I don't have results because always I draw it, there was a teeg in play too XD. I think that could be a good tech against tribal decks and survival.

PS: Some one could put the text of this card? I can't see the picture since the proxy at work heheh

[Tangle.Wire]

planeswalker 3WW

+2 creatures attack the walker next turn if possible
-2 destroy target tapped creature
-0 becomes 6/6 cho manno until end of turn

i also thought about 2 elspeth and him 1 time.



I thought the aven mindscensor is already common played on stax, but i always feel like effects like that or shadow of doubt (i played this but will compare the effekt) won't hurt survival that much as its a single effekt but it should work out great against natural order right?

[Moduloc]

I really like Gideon, however im not sure his assasinate ability would come down quick enough against aggro builds. Stax just needs to survive the early game in order to get there. He just seems a little to slow.

As far as Mindscencer goes, I thought about play testing it but I can think of many other things I would rather be playing than trying to stop my opponent from fetching. It doesn't even always stop what their searcing for.

I agree al-ucard that every hand matters a great deal. Not being able to tutor for our silver bullets or our pieces really hurts this deck a lot. I have been trying to think of a way to fix the problem. I have to say that I too have been beaten silly by my own lands. Thats why I run only one Horizon Canopy instead two like I originally did. tombs are a blessing and a curse. Hopefully rise gives us more of the pieces we need to take this deck over the top.

[Xaul Zan]

elspeth also makes gideon a 9/9 flyer. I figured the creature destroy ability would be used on the little fuckers that they might not always attack into magus with. like maybe a meddling mage named on crucible/armageddon or something.

[Moduloc]

That seems like a BSC. Meddling Mage doesnt really see any play anymore. I think that for a CMC of five I would rather run out a Baneslayer. She beats and with elspeth becomes an 8/8 with lifelink. That seems way more swingy.

[thebadmagicplayer]

new artifact:
6 to cast
tap: add 3
3,tap,sac: draw 3


seems like it might be good with metal worker more so than this deck.

[Moduloc]

Its just not enough for us here. I like the card but I'll have to pass.

[thebadmagicplayer]

agreed, it doesn't fit in a white stax build very well. we cant recur the effect and it is on the expensive side. you would need something like welder/ academy ruins to make it work.

[Q-Ball]

For anyone doing dutch stax, what of Mirri's Guile?
Sure it's a one drop, but the reach can provide consistency.

[Isei]

Dutch Stax does have its own thread...

However, the problems with Mirri's Guile:
1) it requires early green mana, something this deck cannot guarantee
2) it's a one-drop, which gets worse due to Chalice and Trinisphere
3) Sensei's Divining Top is pretty much just better, and we never played that
4) We don't have the shuffle effects (fetchlands) to abuse Top as well as the decks that do play it.
5) We probably don't have the time to play it-- wasting an early turn on a Guile means you need a lot more than the benefit that Guile provides.

[Tangle.Wire]

i have a little question for humility as i had no time to search ruling forums, how do cards like stalking stones, chimeric idol or morphed creatures under humility? i am trying to run a mono w stax with them main but don't wanna have planeswalker as single win option beside factory.

[The Wes]

Factory still becomes a 2/2 under humility, it just looses its ability to tap to give +1/+1. Morphed creatures come in morphed as a 1/1 and can't be unmorphed.

[Isei]

This is not entirely correct.

From the comprehensive rules:


702.34a Morph is a static ability that functions in any zone from which you could play the card it's on, and the morph effect works any time the card is face down. "Morph [cost]" means "You may cast this card as a 2/2 face-down creature, with no text, no name, no subtypes, no expansion symbol, and no mana cost by paying {3} rather than paying its mana cost." (See rule 707, "Face-Down Spells and Permanents.")
702.34d If you have priority, you may turn a face-down permanent you control face up. This is a special action; it doesn't use the stack (see rule 114). To do this, show all players what the permanent's morph cost would be if it were face up, pay that cost, then turn the permanent face up. (If the permanent wouldn't have a morph cost if it were face up, it can't be turned face up this way.) The morph effect on it ends, and it regains its normal characteristics. Any abilities relating to the permanent entering the battlefield don't trigger when it's turned face up and don't have any effect, because the permanent has already entered the battlefield.


So, you can still turn face down creatures face up by paying their morph costs. Morph is not actually a written ability on the face-down card, so humility can't remove it.

[Patrick]

This is my deck list today:
Lands
4 wasteland
4 ancient tomb
3 flagstone of trokair
3 city of traitors
1 kor haven
1 karakas
1 horizon canopy
4 plains
2 savannah
Creatures
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 KoTr

Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War
3 O. Ring
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Trinisphere
3 Suppresion Field
2 Smokestacks

I took out the mishra's because the suppresion fields got in the way, but now I have too little lands and need to push it back to 26 lands because I feel like I don't have enough from time to time. I think 26 lands is that magic number for stax. Im thinking of cutting one O.ring and one suppression field for 2 mishra's factory so that way I'll have more mana and I'll still have my suppressions for w/e I don't want my opponents to activate. Suggestions? Thanks!

As a previous advocate of this deck, I like your list. You're right to start cutting Suppression Field and adding Factory back in, but cut all the Fields from the main and play 3 more lands. 2 Factories for sure and either a 3rd or the 4th City of Traitors. City is better with turn 1-2 Chalices. Otherwise use that slot as another 1-of utility land, seeing how you can use Knight to grab them. That utility land should depend on your metagame (Stadium for Burn, Maze for Reanimator, Tabernacle for aggro, what-have-you.)

[4zureSky]

Guys.. we have just received a new card for our stax! http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/riseoftheeldrazi/x1terpa6xh_EN.jpg

[thebadmagicplayer]

seems...meh...
looks like a cheaper version of baneslayer but much worse until you pump another 11 mana into it.

[GoldenCid]

seems...meh...
looks like a cheaper version of baneslayer but much worse until you pump another 11 mana into it.

+1

[The Wes]

The only interesting thing about it is being able to use up some of that extra mana I always have sitting around at the end of an opponents end step. But still, 2w or something for the mana cost would have made me a bit more interested.

[thebadmagicplayer]

I would consider it if I could actually pump it as an instant. unfortunately it is a sorcery speed ability so no dodging bolt or gaining extra life from swords.

[Moduloc]

This guy is in no way an upgrade from our present choice of beaters.

[The Wes]

You can't pump it as an instant? Screw it then. I take back what I originally said.

[4zureSky]

Haha, I was so excited that I didn't see how weak it actually was. Playing the ability as a sorcery and no lifelink in the beginning also made me reconsider. Boy I really embarrassed myself over there lol.

[thebadmagicplayer]

I probably still wouldn't play it even if I could pump as an instant because It would still be inferior to a BSA because it wouldn't randomly win in the early game with 10 point life swings right off the bat. not saying it's the worst card ever, it's a decent substitute for BSA if you dont have the cash, but its not optimal in my oppinion.

[Al-ucard]

Hey guys, what do you think about this list?

17 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of trokair
6 Plains

16 Creatures
4 Aven Mindcensor
2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Exalted Angel
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Windborn muse

27 Others
4 Armageddon
4 Oblivion ring
4 Suppression Field
4 Chalice of the void
4 Chrome Mox
3 Crucible of worlds
4 Trinisphere

60 Total

15 Sideboard
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Stonecloaker
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt

I'm thinking of change my mind and try it next weekend instead aggro elves. Elvish Champion > "deck with forest", and there are a lot in my meta.

Thoughts?

[Skeggi]

Even with Chrome Mox, I think you need at least 19 lands to support 4 mana cards.

[Al-ucard]

Ok, it's not tested, I only take this (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19889) list and do some changes