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Machinus
06-13-2007, 05:08 PM
Yes, I know, another Stax thread. I have already made several on this site. However, I think the Angel Stax thread just isn't the right place for the discussion of this version of the deck. The decks are quite different.

Two cards have been printed in the last year that contribute significantly to this deck. The first, from Time Spiral, has a small effect, but it is one that Stax takes great advantage of.

http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/TSP/en-us/Card116733.jpg

The functionality here is pretty obvious.

An even better card was printed only a few months ago in Planar Chaos. I have been testing and rebuilding the deck with it since then and I think it is just the kind of improvement the deck needs:

http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/PLC/en-us/Card130719.jpg

This card seems to be designed for this deck. It has a very nice casting cost, is difficult to kill (even with incinerators), and it affects the board immediately. It is really excellent in supporting the Stax strategy.

This card effectively replaces Wrath of God as the primary mechanism for dealing with creatures. This also conveniently opens up more slots in the deck by allowing the expensive and sometimes vulnerable Angel to be replaced. In turn, this dramatically loosens the mana restrictions of cards in the deck by significantly lowering the curve and never requiring double white mana.

The obvious card to use in the open space is Armageddon. This card is cheap, powerful, and synergistic with the deck. After modifying the core of the deck and updating the manabase, the deck looks something like this:

4 Armageddon
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Smokestack
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Crystal Vein
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flagstones of Trokair
6 Plains

The way the deck is constructed now allows for way more synergy and consistency than was possible before. The combos that the deck has relied on previously are still present, but are supplemented by as strong and even stronger ones.

Almost all the cards have strong synergies with each other, but I will list some of the important ones:

Armageddon + Magus of the Tabernacle
Armageddon + Ghostly Prison
Armageddon + Crucible
Armageddon + Trinisphere
Smokestack + Crucible
Smokestack + Trinisphere
Engineered Explosives + Chalice of the Void
Flagstones of Troikar + Armageddon
Mishra's Factory + Crucible

There are more, and depending on the matchup some weak ones can become very strong.

The deck has evolved and seen a lot of discussion since 2007. Skeggi helpfully provided a collection of links to specific card discussions that have popped up over that time period. You should check them out if you are interested (especially before bringing the same idea up again!). - Nihil Credo [25-2-2009]


Quick question: Isn't Flagstones what makes your Magus survive after you have resolved an Armageddon? Why is everyone "only" running 3? (just follow the blue button).

About PainterStone:
clicky (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=226621&postcount=395).

About Moat:
clicky (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=223377&postcount=363). Ofcourse the discussion continues after this post.

About Peace Keeper:

1 Peacekeeper (just follow the blue button).

About Scroll Rack: clicky (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=218772&postcount=331).

Short view on Tabernacle land vs. Magus: clicky (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=216988&postcount=299). Ofcourse the discussion continues after this post.

About Serum Powder:clicky (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=174573&postcount=170). Ofcourse the discussion continues after this post.

About CotV in the sideboard and Winter Orb: clicky. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=167527&postcount=148)

About splashes: clicky (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=167328&postcount=137).

Posts by Fred Bear are lengthy and insightful: clicky (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/search.php?searchid=271876). I've included these because they're kind of the basics of what you must know about Stax. FB shares his all his findings, whether succesful or not, and lays them before you in a clear manner.

About green splash: clicky (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=147322&postcount=88). Ofcourse the discussion continues after this post.

About dropping Smokestack: clicky (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=140084&postcount=48). Ofcourse the discussion continues after this post.

General post about stuff: clicky (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=261099&postcount=642).



Concerning Windborn Muse-
This card has already been brought up several times but the shared opinion is he is too fragile without the CotV@1 to sustain his life. Ghostly Prisons enchantment awesomeness hurt aggro stategies since so few are capable of removing enchantments. Creatures however..

Concerning Geddon-
Its simply way better than Catastrophe and Cataclysm is antisynergistic with your decks mission. If you have Ravages of War Id do a 2/2 split to avoid the mage issues.

Concerning Null Rod-
I think the fact it messes with your mox, factories, and explosives is good enough reason not to mess with it. There are simply other options that remain one sided. I feel the same about Suppression Field. The card could stunt the opponents development but not quite enough and the longer the games draw out the weaker its effect would get. Paying 2 to fetch a land would be ok. Paying 2 to Vial out a Warcheif is still way too good. IMO Explosives helps fill the Suppression Field role but actually reduces the perms in play and allows you to drop the all mighty CotV@2.

Concerning Leonin Abunas/Karmic Justice-

I did try this guy at some point before I decided to foresake the "Cover your Ass" plan. Its simply not worth it to remain reactive. Even Karmic Justice is a card that DOES NOTHING. No really. Cards that only 'turn on' when your opponent does a certain something are usually bad. The only instance I can think to argue that is Standstill because it 'turns on' when the opponent plays any spell, not one that will blow up Crucible.

In short, being proactive lockdeck > being a reactive control deck.

Lich
06-13-2007, 05:18 PM
If you're dropping all the double white cards out of the deck, splashing becomes more feasible. The first thing that comes to mind is Academy Ruins for a potential Explosives every turn, and defense against artifact destruction. Also the splash obviously makes Explosives better.

Here's a weird idea. How about Mobilization? It is even better than Crucible at breaking the symmetry of Smokestack. Obviously it has anti-symmetry with Magus, but I'm not sure if that's a reason to not test it, since it's not like this deck lets your opponent keep many blockers on the board.

The main thing I'm worried about with no Angel is that this deck already had some difficulty winning before the round was over, and now it loses its fastest kill condition.

Also, I still really hate Crystal Vein.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
06-13-2007, 05:25 PM
Cait Sith's going to be pissed. He's been working on this deck for a month.

Turbographics
06-13-2007, 05:37 PM
I built this exact deck last week. It's really solid. Didn't think of the Academy Ruins but that seems even better. I'll do some testing. Works well with crucible, they wreck it, you drop ruins and activate then shove them back under wastelock. :)

Bane of the Living
06-13-2007, 07:18 PM
Ive been testing the new list a bit and I like it alot. It does seem to take longer to kill the opponent without Angels but as always concession is our first method of kill.

Wrath needed to leave the deck some time ago. It was too slow to answer Empty the Warrens and there was always a strain for the double white. Ive done very well with Angel Stax in the past and most of the matches I lost were ones where Wrath sat dead in my hand. Its useless against combo whereas the new list has virtually no dead combo cards. (Ghostly Prison helps against EtW)

1) What is your current sb? The one posted in the Angel Stax thread was..

4 Tormods Crypt
4 Tangle Wire
4 Defense Grid
3 Bottled Cloister

Have you changed it at all? With the lack of angels I've been thinking of replacing Crypt with Jotun Grunt to mirror the functionality but broaded my sb options to add quicker kill methods.

2) What are your opinions on Seal of Cleansing/Disenchant? Is this role maintained well solely by Engineered Explosives?

3) How do you feel about running 1 Dual land to fetch with Flagstones. It would obviously be to cast EE for a higher amount. Killing Kataki is important in my meta and the only way to do so is to have a Mox Diamond. Something I dont want to rely on playing against Kataki obviously.

Silverdragon
06-13-2007, 07:56 PM
First off thanks for creating a new thread for the more modern version of monowhite Stax. Just yesterday I was going to ask for an updated primer in the old thread but my PC crashed (more like exploded). I had an almost finished piece about my version of the deck that got lost but whatever...
Anyway my current list looks very similar to yours so I'm looking forward to reading more about your thoughts on the deck.

Machinus
06-13-2007, 08:28 PM
1) What is your current sb? The one posted in the Angel Stax thread was..

4 Tormods Crypt
4 Tangle Wire
4 Defense Grid
3 Bottled Cloister

Have you changed it at all? With the lack of angels I've been thinking of replacing Crypt with Jotun Grunt to mirror the functionality but broaded my sb options to add quicker kill methods.

2) What are your opinions on Seal of Cleansing/Disenchant? Is this role maintained well solely by Engineered Explosives?

3) How do you feel about running 1 Dual land to fetch with Flagstones. It would obviously be to cast EE for a higher amount. Killing Kataki is important in my meta and the only way to do so is to have a Mox Diamond. Something I dont want to rely on playing against Kataki obviously.

Great questions. I'd be happy to answer.

1) The only slot that's definite in the SB is Defense Grid. The other cards I am using based on past experience with this archetype. I like Tangle Wire because it dominates slower decks but it may be unnecessary. I also like Tormod's Crypt because free graveyard removal can be really good, but again it may not be an important asset.

2) I think Seal of Cleansing is really good, but it does not 2-for-1 and it does not deal with creatures. There is a lot of removal in the deck, but Aggro is the hardest deck to beat and there's no reason to make it harder. I think Seal is a fine addition to the sideboard.

3) Using a dual land to boost Explosives is fine as long as you aren't worried about Wasteland. With the way the deck is set up now, it is very hard to remove Stax's white source once it is in play. I like having this stability but if this is not a concern, and if cards like Kataki are actually being played, then I think it would be an improvement to have access to another colored source.

ClearSkies
06-13-2007, 09:03 PM
What about Suppression Field? Doesn't that hose a lot of random stuff? (Like cycling, and basically all permanents with activated abilities)

Even though I played Angel Stax, my build is very similar to yours except that I have Angels instead of Engineered Explosives. As I play Angel Stax, I found that the only time I was able to put down an Angel is when I have almost a complete lock.

What about Rishadan Ports instead of Crystal Vein? Does that slow the deck down too much, and count as a "win-more" card?

Well, in the recent local tournaments I been to, this is my sideboard.

4x Defense Grids
4x Suppression Field
2x Aura of Silence
3x Sphere of Law
2x Humility

Sometimes, it is -2 Humility, -1 Sphere of Law and +3 Bottled Cloisters.

Defense Grids is a pretty obvious sideboard. I kind of mentioned Suppression Field above.

What do you guys think about Aura of Silence? It might help versus affinity, enchantress, or just decks that play problematic artifact and enchantments. I know the double White might lead some mana troubles.

After bringing Angel Stax three times to my local tournment, I find that Sphere of Law is a somewhat "win-more" card since Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere slows Sligh and/or burn decks down.

I seem to have problems with decks that have land destruction combined with discarding. (Like Deadguy-ale type decks) What kind of sideboard material should I use against those?

edgewalker
06-13-2007, 09:10 PM
Bottled Cloister sort of helps against discard.

I must say, I love how the deck has changed over time. I'm just worried about it's speed. I know it's a lock deck, but it seems like you give combo decks too much time to find an answer to your lock (which is also bad, since you don't have any system for drawing additional cards)

ClearSkies
06-13-2007, 09:17 PM
Bottled Cloister sort of helps against discard.

I must say, I love how the deck has changed over time. I'm just worried about it's speed. I know it's a lock deck, but it seems like you give combo decks too much time to find an answer to your lock (which is also bad, since you don't have any system for drawing additional cards)

I thought that Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void are a natural hosers of Combo Decks? Of course, you would have to mulligan until you have one with a double mana land.

sammiel
06-13-2007, 09:20 PM
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland
4x Flagstones of Trokair
8x Plains

4x Magus of the Tabernacle
3x Exalted Angel

4x Ghostly Prison
4x Smokestack
4x Crucible
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
2x Armageddon
1x Ravages of War
2x Powder Keg


SB
4x Hanna's Custody/Sacred Ground
4x Suppression Field
4x Porphyry Nodes
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2x Powder Keg


I chose wasteland over factory because I just wanted to really focus on mana-denial. I really don't like crystal vein, never even liked it in R/G stax personally, so with all the white sources, I stuck with exalted angel as my other finisher.

As far as the sideboard, Red Death and Homebrew tend to slaughter me in testing and in tournament play, so sacred grounds are in for them and for the rather funny mirror match. Noone plays solidarity, if they did I would consider a mix of Hanna's Custody and Rule of Law.

Suppression Field is great against alot of decks, especially against goblins.

Nodes is good against goblins on the draw, when I tend to side chalices out. This is an iffy slot, since most other aggro decks would be vulnerable to chalice @ 1, making nodes bad. An iffy call and one that merits more testing.

Tabernacle: great, but not MD material since it doesn't produce mana. Bring it in against red combo and any aggro.

Powder Keg: the extra two in the board are really only for EtW.

Bane of the Living
06-13-2007, 09:23 PM
I seem to have problems with decks that have land destruction combined with discarding. (Like Deadguy-ale type decks) What kind of sideboard material should I use against those?

I dont remember who I got the idea from perhaps Silverdragon, but Duskrider Peregrine is amazing against black decks. He leaves your hand as early as turn one to be suspended safe from discard and can be protected from Lightning Bolt and StP with Chalice of the Void.

He can block and kill Hippies all day which is huge. He also works as another win condition post board should you need to add any.

@sammiel
Whats with Powder Kegs? Are you hoping to hit things that cost 2+ alot? Ive found the ability to drop EE for one with chalice@1 quite key to matchups where you see turn one Mongoose/Vial ect.

xsockmonkeyx
06-13-2007, 09:25 PM
Cait Sith's going to be pissed. He's been working on this deck for a month.

Meh, his is better. This one isnt quite there yet.

slyfer
06-13-2007, 09:46 PM
I really don't like the e.e.
You cast them @0 (only empty, too narrow), or @1, must be lucky with mox.
The deck like this has very hard time vs threshold with tarmagoyf (became a 6/7 so easy).
You cannot deal with single big creatures.
Solidarity match up is also hard to my testing, you simply hope to draw 7 cards good vs combo. Crucible, magus, smokestack.. combo doesn't care :smile:

Bane of the Living
06-13-2007, 10:23 PM
I really don't like the e.e.
You cast them @0 (only empty, too narrow), or @1, must be lucky with mox.
The deck like this has very hard time vs threshold with tarmagoyf (became a 6/7 so easy).
You cannot deal with single big creatures.
Solidarity match up is also hard to my testing, you simply hope to draw 7 cards good vs combo. Crucible, magus, smokestack.. combo doesn't care :smile:

This deck has a better chance against Solidarity than most others you realize. You just need good judgement as far as what hand to keep. The only completely irrelevant card to the matchup is Ghostly Prison. Find the hands that have the CotV and 3sphere or fast mana for very early Geddons and Stacks.

I havent found it too hard to launch explosives for 2 with both Mox Diamond and a 1 of dual land to fetch off Flagstones. Tarmagoyf is indeed a problem but I find Magus is usually just big enough to hold him off when hes a 5/6. To be a 6/7 your opponent usually needs to play one of four sorceries or get lucky and counter a Ghostly Prison.

Citrus-God
06-14-2007, 03:40 AM
I think the board needs a beatstick as a win condition against combo. I say Juggernaut or Angel. I'm definitely sure Juggernauts are better...

As for a way to answer Goyf, run Morning Tide...

slyfer
06-14-2007, 05:07 AM
Ah, and one thing I hate (often happens in games) is this:
I lose the dice roll, but my hand is like "tomb , chalice, flagstone, plain, trinisphere, crucible, smokestack", so I have the maximum play of chalice @1 turn 1, ecc...

But

Opponent starts with: land mongoose.
I lay chalice 1. OK.
He play land tarmagoyf. And it's pretty game over, because I'm under pressure, he keeps the counter only for smokestack
So the problem is the "misallineament" of chalice due to the fact that I lose the dice roll.

that's why I like to have a couple of wasteland to just abuse crucible more, and wrath of god, so I can hold on better the creatures together with ghotsly prison.

thanks for the morningtide tech....can it replace tormod's crypt? hmmm not sure.

Nihil Credo
06-14-2007, 10:58 AM
I believe going all-in with the mana denial/taxing strategy to be too dangerous. With as much randomness as can be faced in Legacy, the risk of just becoming a goldfish in the wrong matchup is far too great. And with the insane amount of free countermagic running around, do you really want to put all your eggs into a Crystal Vein into Crucible play?

Maindeck Angels equip your deck with a credible creature threat that wins the game on its own; all too often have I won Game 2 by swinging with a hot flying chick on turn 3 (or 2), while my opponent stared helplessy at his Shattering Sprees.

Most Stax versions IMO focus too much on the opening play. I see lists made almost entirely of 4-ofs; but there are only a few cards that really deserve this status. Separate between the cards that set up your game (Crucible, Trinisphere, Propaganda effects) and the ones that mop up the game (Smokestack, creatures or manlands, Wasteland recursion). The latter you can afford to wait to draw into, and the extra room will get you Angels to win otherwise unwinnable games.

Lastly, I've found Faith's Fetters to be great tech in the SB, practically a life-gaining Vindicate for the deck. At the very least, you can never have too many ways to shut down Vial.

Right now, the following list is my favourite deck to play in the format:

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
8 [UNH] Plains
2 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
3 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle
3 [ON] Exalted Angel

// Spells
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [P3] Ravages of War
3 [REW] Armageddon
3 [US] Smokestack

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle
SB: 1 [TE] Wasteland
SB: 1 [US] Smokestack
SB: 3 [US] Disenchant
SB: 4 [9E] Defense Grid
SB: 2 [LE] Windborn Muse
SB: 3 [RAV] Faith's Fetters

Silverdragon
06-14-2007, 11:50 AM
Just bragging here, the Duskrider Peregrines were in fact my idea and so far they are the best of all the cards I tested.
My current list has 3 Powder Kegs main because they are better against an unknown opponent. Imagine this hand: Plains, Mox Diamond, Ancient Tomb, Explosives, 3 irrelevant cards (more lands, Magus, Armageddon or Smokestack). Do you set Explosives at 0, 1 or 2? Do you play them at all? With Keg the only question here would be what to pitch for the Mox.
It can be relevant to hit Enchantments with Explosives but I don't care about Sacred Ground (especially game 1), should I?
My conclusion is that Explosives starts of a bit weaker due to the lack of information about your opponent's hand (and maybe deck in general) but gets as good or better than Keg the longer the game goes on.
Before I leave I have another interesting info for you. Don't board in Tormod's Crypt against Threshold. I tested a lot versus two different Thresholddecks (UGw with Mages and UGw with Counterbalance) and they never helped. Tarmogoyf couldn't care less and 1/1 Mongooses are still permanents that either got stopped by all the other cards in your deck anyway or need 2-3 turns at most to get big again. I had at least 2 games where I played first turn Crypt and my opponent played first turn Pithing Needle on MISHRA'S FACTORY ignoring the Crypt and winning anyway (ok he didn't totally ignore it he just played around it with ease).
Crypt like Tangle Wire has almost no impact on the current boardstate but at least Tangle Wire temporarely attacks your opponents ressources to help your primary gameplan.
edit: I played Faith's Fetters for a short period of time too but trading 1-1 with a 4 mana card that can later be Disenchanted and generally doesn't have good synergies with Smokestack wansn't that hot imho.

Fred Bear
06-14-2007, 12:21 PM
Well, I'll probably earn a reputation as a long-poster after this one, but I'm going to post a lot of my information (as it applys to the comments in this new thread so far) from the last 4 months of testing. I had originally planned to take White Stax to Flash Prix, but then work had different plans for me - so I have tested most of the match-ups in detail with several iterations of builds ranging from Angel-to-Angelless and everything in between.

As Machinus points out in the original post, this deck relies on amazing synergy of the cards throughout the deck. But don't let anyone tell you differently - Armageddon is easily the strongest card in the deck. The only 2 cards I disagree with in Machinus' build are lands - Mishra's Factory and Crystal Vein. Nothing in the deck is broken enough to require Crystal Vein. Don't get me wrong, you really like the boost of 2-mana lands and you want to play them, but I have found that too often when you need the boost from Vein - you need the land in play more. Mishra's Factory is average-to-below average in the deck on its own. It requires other cards to be anything better - i.e. you need Crucible to be able to recur it and you really won't be attacking with it until you have already locked them out making it win-more in that instance. My biggest question to Machinus is - how does this decklist improve (over recent Angel Stax builds) at least the major matchups (Goblins, Threshold, TES, CRET Belcher, Boros, Landstill) that you might expect to see at a large tournament?

To Lich's comments:

Academy Ruins is bad in this deck. It falls into the 'Danger of Cool Things' category in my opinion. You need to run at least 2 to make it better than random plus you need to run a blue land splash so you don't rely on Mox Diamond plus you need to have something to recur (which shouldn't be so hard). It just doesn't fit the deck's strategy or goals. Which artifact is worth 3-mana plus essentially 2 turns to get into play?

Mobilization is another nice idea that underperforms in practice. Its biggest drawback, though, is that it just doesn't play as nicely with the other cards in the deck. It won't work with Magus out (and Magus is just as strong as Machinus claims, so I would not cut him) and to 'break' the Smokestack symmetry, you need to create two soldiers per turn (WW:2:). If I were to pay :3: and then WW:2: for a card to be effective, there's a different one I would include :wink:.

To Bane's Questions (and Machinus' first set of answers)...

Specifically which decks are Tangle Wire and Tormod's Crypt good sideboard options against? I always get nervous that I am not testing the proper match-ups when I see suggestions like these, so I am really interested in the answer - not trying to be a smart guy. I have never had consistent success with Tangle Wire and I never know what I would really want to board out for Crypt since in most of the match-ups that I think it would be useful in, I believe there are better choices.

Specifically which aggro is the hardest to beat and why? I have not found this to be the case at all in my testing (but I am also sure you are facing 'tougher' opponents - no offense to my playtest partners intended). I would not by any means call it easy, but many aggro decks are simply shut down by Ghostly Prison and Magus followed by an Armageddon. It may sound like I am oversimplifying it, but Chalice, Trinisphere, and Smokestack all give them problems too and will usually stall enough for you to draw into a 'closer'.

As far as the Seal of Cleansing/Disenchant conversation, I have found Seal>Disenchant, but Aura of Silence is easily better than both and I've not had that much difficulty making to to WW for the casting (I had originally started using it for difficult Enchantress matches, but it has many other uses).

It's my belief that running 1 dual to 'fetch' with Flagstones is going to be far too random to evaluate objectively. You have to rely on destroying Flagstones or drawing a one-of dual to 'consistently' cast EE at 2? It just doesn't add up for me. If you have a specific target in mind, Powder Keg is almost always better, I realize that it will take a little longer (which is why I usually argue against Powder Keg), but it will be much, much more consistent. With that said, there are other options - I have currently been testing Coalition Relic or one of the 2-mana artifacts (which I still don't care for in a deck where casting Chalice @ 2 trumps most of the 2cc spells available to it) to consistently get the second color. This also seems more synergistic with Armageddon, etc.

Towards Clear Skies comments:

Against black decks, I have been having more success with Spiritual Focus than Bottled Cloister. I found Cloister to be too slow. It typically hits the board after a Duress and Hymn (or Gerrard's Verdict) and is really slowed down more by a wasted 2-mana land or Sinkhole. If they Duress you and let you keep it, it more often than not signals that they are already holding a Vindicate for it which essentially becomes a 3-mana Mind Twist. Long story short - I don't care for it, but recognize it is an option. With Focus, you will still discard, but then you replace the card and gain life which hurts their already pathetic clock. And let's face it, most of these games are really just a race until you drop a Chalice at 2 which turns off 90% of their deck.

I think Suppression Field is another discussion that I would like to hear more opinions on. I have noticed it missing from both Machinus' maindeck and sideboard and Field was the card that the Angel Stax thread was initially touted around. Is it really not that good in the current meta? I know it is not very good against most of the top combo decks, but it is situationally very good vs aggro and some aggro-control. Has it fallen out of favor for 'stronger' selections? Or is this really just based on a projected shift in the meta?

To Edgwalkers comment about Combo :

What combo, specifically, would you be worried about? I have played a number of games vs CRET Belcher where if they don't win turn 1 or 2, they simply can't win (Trinisphere, Chalice, etc.). The same is true of TES and SI. I still sideboard Rule of Law giving me one more out vs most combo decks. That, of course, is not to minimize your point that you do win slowly, but if my opponent wants to play while locked out, I am fine sac'ing a land to Smokestack, draw searching for Magus, play a land and passing the turn - I have yet for a match to take more than 40 minutes (since I've grown more comfortable with the deck, of course).

To Sammiel :

You must have a ton of Goblins in your meta :frown:. I quit boarding out my Chalices, though. A Chalice at 2 stops most of their artifact/enchantment destruction - you may still get hit by a random Krosan Grip, but I would rather stop Tin-Street, Disenchant, Tranquil Domain, etc. for just one card (I recongnize, of course, that it may slow but not stop Piledriver and Tinkerer). And I have never wanted a Nodes. I think this is one of the few decks I have played in Legacy where I am happy to see a turn 1 Lackey.

I never found an instance when I wanted to board in Hanna's Custody when I played them - it's just far too reactive. I feel the same way with Sacred Ground. In my testing the land destruction element of Black decks is much, much, much (I would go on ad infinitum here) less disruptive than their discard, and because of that, I've not found it worthwile to board against and if I did, I would play Karmic Justice over Sacred Ground - it might not get my land back, but it protects everything on my side of the table (not just lands) and hurts them all at once.

To Slyfer's Comments :

You articulated a point that I've been thinking for quite a while - This deck does have trouble with single big creatures. Smokestack is slow and to a certain degree Engineered Explosives is too. A good thought experiment to evaluate this is - What do you do if Red Death (on the play) goes Turn 1 Swamp, Dark Ritual, Negator? Without getting bogged down into the specifics of the situation (i.e. don't argue that this happens only X% of the time and can be dismissed as luck), what tools do we really have to combat this? There really are several creatures in the format that 'slowing down' doesn't hurt enough (especially if you are taking land damage - I'm looking at you Ancient Tomb).

I haven't had much trouble with Threshold (it's 45-55-to-55-45 pre-board depending on draws/players/specific builds) and I actually prefer to see Tarmogoyf to Werebear. Engineered Explosives can be played at 2 as well. The Solidarity match-up (as Bane already said) is pretty good and if you resolve Armageddon, it's usually game over for them.

To Win Conditions :

I go back and forth on whether or not the deck really wants/needs another win condition. It would definitely not be Juggernaut in my mind. If I were to play another win condition, I'm thinking it would have to meet several criteria - a) has to be able to block if needed, b) has to have some form of evasion, and/or c) has to have some synergy with the rest of the deck. I tried Epochrasite and it's a neat trick to have a 4/4 keep coming back. Unfortunately, against a lot of decks Chalice at 2 is more powerful, Swords kills the recurrance, or you just wish like hell it was something better. I don't know if there is another win condition that meets all those criteria. I've also thought about Barren Glory as a possible win since it turns a lot of lock pieces into faster wins. I haven't fully tested that route, though.

About Morningtide :

Don't. Bane's suggestion of Jotun Grunt is 100% better for 1 reason - it's a permanent. One of the basic principles of a Stax deck is that you play more permanents and lessen the effect of Smokestack (you really can play this without Crucible and still be in ok shape a lot of the time). It's why I say Seal of Cleansing or Aura of Silence is > Disenchant, etc.

For more discussion :

What matchups are people having trouble with? (My bane is Landstill)
Do people have matchup analysis to share? (I have lots if people want to see it)
What other cards can be tried? (I've tested bunches of ideas and I'm sure I've missed even more)

Apology :

Sorry again for the long post. As I've said, I've been testing the deck for over 4 monthes now and have built up a lot of data and opinions about it. If you have specific questions, I will try to answer them.

Fred Bear...

To Nihil :

I'm a little confused, you say that going 'all-in' on mana denial is too dangerous and present a list with 6 Armageddons? I feel the same way about your comment about 4-ofs - how is that different than the list you present? 4-ofs give a deck increased consistency and many-to-most of the cards in this deck fall into that category.

I agree with Silverdragon's analysis of Faith's Fetters. A 4-mana one-for-one is not very effecient in this deck.

Pinder
06-14-2007, 12:28 PM
Meh, his is better. This one isnt quite there yet.

I concur. I'm not going to post his list, because it's his, but it seems inevitable anyway, so maybe he'll post it for us.

sammiel
06-14-2007, 03:36 PM
I roll landstill unless they have vengeance/disk/deed. I've never played anything but U/W landstill in tournament play though, so its mostly just vengeance/disk that I look for.

As far as goblins go, I do get paired up against them alot, but I've never lost a tournie match against gobs. In playtesting, I constantly get owned by not having enough pressure on before siege gang commander comes down and melts my face. Early bleeding on top of ancient tombs really screws me vs goblins, hence the nodes in the SB. The matchup is better now with magus, but it's still a rough one. I hate having 4 slots in the board that are only used half the time in a single matchup, so I might find a more versatile replacement.

I'll try karmic justice over sacred ground though.

B4L4
06-14-2007, 03:47 PM
Hum, has anyone considered Leonin Abunas in sb?

It avoid to be owned by shatering spree or krosan grip / ancient grudge

At least, he is always better than trini/chalice against goblins

emidln
06-14-2007, 04:04 PM
Hum, has anyone considered Leonin Abunas in sb?

It avoid to be owned by shatering spree or krosan grip / ancient grudge

At least, he is always better than trini/chalice against goblins

Not true. I've Trini/Crucible/Wastelocked Goblins several times in tournaments with the help of Pithing Needle. Chalice is highly effective against Goblins as long as you rely on it to protect your other lock pieces from destruction and not as your only answer to vial/lackey.

B4L4
06-14-2007, 05:33 PM
Not true. I've Trini/Crucible/Wastelocked Goblins several times in tournaments with the help of Pithing Needle. Chalice is highly effective against Goblins as long as you rely on it to protect your other lock pieces from destruction and not as your only answer to vial/lackey.

Hum, what i mean is, on the draw against gob, i always sb out chalice and trini, on the play it's different
(on the draw) U can't answer vial / chalice without seal of cleansing/EE/nodes, and it makes your chalice really weak (maybe keep them if its white splashed gob..), and trini is bad here too (if u consider trini as a lock against them, it means that u go for geddon + prison plan, which is great with and without trini..)

Abunas is at least a decent blocker..

sammiel
06-14-2007, 05:44 PM
@B4L4

After reading your wonderful workstation exploits, I don't think anyone is remotely interested in your opinion about anything in magic.

@obnoxious jerk:

I guess all my goblin opponents in the past have been outdated, the only dangerous sideboard stuff I've ever seen against me was leave no trace. Is RG with hooligans and grip really becoming more popular?

B4L4
06-14-2007, 06:30 PM
Hum, believe it or not, but they are 2 B4L4 on mws, myself, and someone who try to create me an unworthy reputation

But anyway, answering to someone's argument with : your argument is bad, cause of your reputation is quite "stupid"...

Fred Bear
06-14-2007, 08:20 PM
About Landstill :

My biggest problems with Landstill comes from them getting just enough disruption to keep me off anything useful until they manage a Disk or Deed (Deed is by far my biggest nemesis and I wish we had access to a card just like it for perms with CC 2 or less). Post board, the Defense Grids help, but not with Deed or Disk. [I realize that some play Akroma's Vengeance, but I've avoided it for the most part - keeping them off 6 lands hasn't been that much of a problem]

For B4L4 :

I have tried Leonin Abunas a little, but most decks don't pack dedicated 'hate' for us (yet), so he always underperformed. I would rather side in a card that progresses my game plan or nullifies my opponent's (another 'threat') rather than a card that protects my stuff. Post board, most decks will still only have a few disenchant effects and our whole deck needs to be answered. I understand he can attack too, but let's face it - you're playing him for the ability, not the 2 damage from a 4cc creature. And I will argue until I am blue in the face that boarding out Chalice against Goblins is the wrong decision.

I think the point you are missing with the Goblins matchup is that answering a first turn Aether Vial is not that big a deal unless they get the nuts off it. And honestly against this deck, I've found I'm more worried if they drop the Vial off a Port than anything else.

Fred Bear...

Lich
06-14-2007, 11:05 PM
Karmic Justice is the best answer I've found to Deed/Disk. Before Flash I ran a few in my sideboard. What's really great is when they drop Serenity, and then you play Karmic Justice and get a one-sided Geddon.

Cait_Sith
06-14-2007, 11:52 PM
Yes, I am indeed very sad. Sad as a panda. A SAD PANDA! (Incidentally, my deck is called Sad Panda) I'll post it and its primer after Kadi's.

Phantom
06-15-2007, 12:28 AM
Any chance this deck (the original posted) wants to run Null Rod in the board? It does shut down 8 of your cards (Explosives and Moxen) but some could be sided out for it. I've been looking for a deck to run it in, as I think it's a solid card in the current meta, with the rise of LED combo, and equipment based aggro, as well as good old Vial, which I imagine is a problem card in this deck (Also, it seems this deck would struggle against Affinity, but I could be wrong there too). This seems like a solid fit for the Rod since it can power it out so quickly. It's almost like another set of Chalices that can be set @0 against TES and IGGy.

I might be mistaken though, since a lot of the decks Null Rod is solid against, Explosives is also very good against (ETW based combo comes to mind). Thoughts?

Hanni
06-15-2007, 12:52 AM
Have you considered Windborn Muse? My friend Nam that always plays Angel Stax runs a playset of those in addition to Ghostly Prisons. 3W for a 2/3 flyer is really good when it has built in Ghostly Prison. Magus of the Tabernacle is good, and even though the fact that it forces you to also pay 1 probably isn't an issue, it seems like overall it might be a little less effective at stopping creatures from attacking you. The evasion is also pretty nice.

A creature base of:

4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Windborn Muse
4 Mishra's Factory

With 4 Ghostly Prison in addition seems like a really strong anti creature package that doesn't need WW, while giving you plenty of win conditions to boot.

Turbographics
06-15-2007, 01:06 AM
being able to answer their ghostly prison worries with a cycle of gempalm incinerator makes it far too risky to run the Muse imo. It's easier to lock out quite a few decks because they run more creature kill than they do enchantment/artifact hate. Making most of your permanents... well... permanent. :)

Citrus-God
06-15-2007, 03:25 AM
I roll landstill unless they have vengeance/disk/deed. I've never played anything but U/W landstill in tournament play though, so its mostly just vengeance/disk that I look for.

What you should worry about is not Vengeance nor Deed. It's Disk... and nobody in the right mind will ever play that card. Deed is easy because it's 4c; you keep them off color unless they play that Bardo Landstill. Vengeance is just easy; you toy around their mana base like crazy. Of course, you have Geddon' to stall....


@Hanni: In this deck, Windborn Muse is awesome. What would you run over with Muse?

sammiel
06-15-2007, 08:52 AM
What you should worry about is not Vengeance nor Deed. It's Disk... and nobody in the right mind will ever play that card. Deed is easy because it's 4c; you keep them off color unless they play that Bardo Landstill. Vengeance is just easy; you toy around their mana base like crazy. Of course, you have Geddon' to stall....


@Hanni: In this deck, Windborn Muse is awesome. What would you run over with Muse?

I don't know about you, but at least one of the UW landstill players around here never stopped running disk, in fact he runs it with ruins. That's the main reason that I left exalted angels in, is because I have to end the game quick against him.

Personally, I love disk and don't see why more people don't run it. Obviously it's way too slow to serve as your primary removal, but as backup it's pretty awesome, and you don't need double white or b/g to cast it.

I playtested windborn muse, and it just makes enemy removal more relevant g1. Maybe side them in game 2 imo.

technogeek5000
06-15-2007, 09:10 AM
Wouldnt splashing black for dark ritual and braids help this deck, dark ritual will help you get out turn 1 3sphere (managible for this deck because it runs 2 mana lands) or even turn 2 magus. This would allow you to run a creature base that stacks as control components. 6-8 smokestacks seems pretty cool.

emidln
06-15-2007, 09:50 AM
Wouldnt splashing black for dark ritual and braids help this deck, dark ritual will help you get out turn 1 3sphere (managible for this deck because it runs 2 mana lands) or even turn 2 magus.

Dark Ritual is bad because it:

(a) requires changing a stable manabase
(b) is card disadvantage that cannot be offset by Crucible
(c) is dead after turn 2
(d) is dead if you are executing your gameplan (Chalice @ 1, Trinisphere)
(e) is not able to be sacrificed to Smokestack

As far as acceleration, there are already four moxen, 11-12 double mana lands, and 4 crucibles. This is more than enough acceleration for consistent early plays (consistently allowing 4 mana turn 2) while not altering the manabase for cards that absolutely must be draw in the first two turns while not having already played a Trinisphere or a Chalice @ 1.

Fred Bear
06-15-2007, 10:53 AM
About Pernicious Deed & Nevinyrral's Disk :

Karmic Justice would be a good answer to Deed/Disk. I just wish there was a way around having to side in such a reactive card. Relying entirely on mana disruption to keep your opponent off devastating cards is not enough for this deck, especially when those cards are played in control decks. The toughest games that I've had with this deck is when either your first 3 'threats' are countered or they let you play right into a Deed/Disk and counter the Armageddon.

I even tried Disk in this deck in the EE slots. I just couldn't justify it since the number of times it either sat on the board waiting to become Smokestack fodder or sat in my hand because there were better cards to cast were too numerous even as a 2-of.

About Null Rod :

Null Rod is an ok card, but the applications are too specific to warrant use in the deck or sideboard. Other effects that are already included in the deck are more devastating to the decks packing Lion's Eye, etc. Null Rod will randomly hose equipment, Vials, etc., but other cards do a better, more universal job against those decks.

About Windborn Muse :

I have never tested a full playset, simply because I haven't been able to find room. As a 2-of, it tested terribly. Without a Chalice at 1, it will get Swords, Bolted, etc. etc. etc. and is not 'a fifth Ghostly Prison' since it becomes so easily removed. I almost always wished it was a different card in the deck. I did not find that it significantly increased the clock against combo (it will randomly hose Empty the Warrens, of course) and I did not find that it provided any more of a lock against Aggro (easy to remove). I always found that I needed Muse + another card to get the effect that I really wanted, which was how I justified not wanting a full playset. I guess I could see playing it in an environment that is more heavily weighted towards Goblins or other fast aggro (though I can't recall losing more than a handful of matches to non-Goblins aggro), but what do you take out?

Specifically at Hanni :

If I were to run that creature base, I don't think you could run 4x Factory simply because you should be running a playset of Wasteland in your mana base. Taxation + Mana Denial fits the strategy better than Factories. This is why I choose to run Wasteland over Factories in my build, in general.

About Black Stax :

It's a different deck. That's the quick answer. emidln makes good points about some of your suggestions, but, ultimately, Black Stax is an entirely different deck. I think there's even a thread for it here somewhere.

Fred Bear...

Citrus-God
06-15-2007, 01:18 PM
I don't know about you, but at least one of the UW landstill players around here never stopped running disk, in fact he runs it with ruins. That's the main reason that I left exalted angels in, is because I have to end the game quick against him.

Still.... You get Armageddon early.... like almost always. You should prevent them from their Turn 4 through Wastelands and early Geddons'.


Personally, I love disk and don't see why more people don't run it. Obviously it's way too slow to serve as your primary removal, but as backup it's pretty awesome, and you don't need double white or b/g to cast it.

I agree. It was good in the era of UW Landstill.


I playtested windborn muse, and it just makes enemy removal more relevant g1. Maybe side them in game 2 imo.

I fail to doubt this in a deck full of Bombs and Soft Lock components.

BreathWeapon
06-15-2007, 02:11 PM
Have people considered replacing the Armagedons with Cataclysm or Catastrophe in order to have more control over the opponent's board position? Armagedon seems like such a win more card sometimes, while Cataclysm and Catastrophe are full on reset buttons.

Fred Bear
06-15-2007, 02:35 PM
Have people considered replacing the Armagedons with Cataclysm or Catastrophe in order to have more control over the opponent's board position? Armagedon seems like such a win more card sometimes, while Cataclysm and Catastrophe are full on reset buttons.

Catastrophe is strictly worse than other options. Wrath is cheaper if you wanted a creature sweeper and Armageddon is obviously cheaper as a land sweeper. Catastrophe gives you the choice, yes, but it is overcosted at WW4. I would look at Akroma's Vengeance if I wanted a 'full on reset button' since it can also cycle when it is unplayable or the recently discussed Nevinyrral's Disk which can sac to Smokestack while protecting your position. Neither 'reset buttons' are necessary as far as I can tell.

Cataclysm has no synergy with this deck in my opinion. Armageddon can be played aggressively while Cataclysm is almost solely a reactionary (or 'catch-up') card. The times when you can play it for an advantage are too narrow making it a weaker selection when compared to Armageddon.

Armageddon may seem like 'win-more' but that is because of how strong it really is, not that it is unecessary in the deck. Just look back to Machinus' original post for all the 'mini-combos' with Armageddon in the deck. None of them could be duplicated with Cataclysm or Catastrophe (unless you are destroying all lands).

Fred Bear...

Machinus
06-15-2007, 02:58 PM
Armagedon seems like such a win more card sometimes.

You are confusing "win-more" with just "win." Those are really different things.

Silverdragon
06-15-2007, 04:51 PM
You are confusing "win-more" with just "win." Those are really different things.

QFT!
Btw maybe it should be added that you can play 2 Armageddon and 2 Ravages of War if you are afraid of Meddling Mage. Or better yet 4 Ravages because nobody knows this card.

Citrus-God
06-15-2007, 05:20 PM
You are confusing "win-more" with just "win." Those are really different things.


Armageddon is a bomb in this deck. Saying this card as win-more doesnt make sense because you win once it resolves.

Pale Moon FTW
06-15-2007, 05:21 PM
Maybe I'm just dumb but I have a hard time seeing the difference between this deck and AngelStax. Except the missing Tangle Wires which are almost timewalks.

Bane of the Living
06-15-2007, 05:42 PM
Time to run my mouth..

First my current sb..
3 Duskrider Peregrine
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Defense Grid
1 Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale
2 Glowrider
2 Tangle Wire

Concerning black attrition matchups-

Duskrider Peregrine is the bomb like Silverdragon and I said. Remain doubtfull till you try him. Im in love with this bird now. Rather than making black decks fight through more lock pieces and walls you make them need an answer to something that will kill them, something believe it or not, they arent prepared for. Negator is a huge problem but Ive been bringing in both Jotun Grunt and the Duskrider against them to block him and to kill my opponents while their pants are down. Alot of Red Death and Homebrew players will sb out their Red removal or StP's. If they dont you still have CotV. I also find Tangle Wire to be of use since all R/B and W/B's spells are generally sorcery.

Concerning Landstill-

This is indeed a difficult matchup. I have problems most specifically with U/B lists such as Duckhunt or other black versions such as BHWC. The major contenders in their decks are Crucible of the Worlds and Standstill. Stacks has a tough time with anyone recurring anything each turn, (Nether Spirit, Life from the Loam, Crucible, Squee) especially if that resource is lands since it rebuilds them from Geddon and Taxing effects.

Black versions have two huge bombos against you. Pernicious Deed and Haunting Echoes. For these reasons Truffle Shuffle is also an unfavorable matchup.

Im still researching solutions to this but again Jotun Grunt seems to be a fine tool when combined with Defense Grid. You need the quick clock before they can rebuild and bury you in card advantage. Neither help against deed but Grunt can remove lands from under their crucible and take Gigapede from Truffle Shuffle.

Glowrider and Tangle Wire can both come in against Landstill as well since they also sb out spot removal such as Smother and StP. Tangle Wire is perfect against control decks and compliments both their shortage of permanants and your own Defense Grids.

Concerning Goblins-

Im also quite comfortable with my goblin matchup with the current maindeck. I think some of the people playing without the Mishras Factories are missing out on this matchup. Wastelands are nice to compliment Ghostly Prison and Magus but both are more than effective enough on their own till you Geddon and win. Factory helps block early beats, most importantly Goblin Lackey.

I never sb out Chalice against them since it still shuts down Vials, they're best card against you. Whether or not you go first to cast it you still have Engineered Explosives to nuke it away.

Concerning Thresh- Im quite sure their matchup is more favorable with the Tarmagoyf. He can be huge for them since you have Enchantments and Artifacts to counter. Magus needs to maintain enough toughness to block him or you need recurring Factories to chump him till Smokestack takes the game. Thankfully versions running Counterbalance sucks against you since your mana curves are completely different but it can be an issue if they can colaberate Top+Balance+Enforcer. Something Ive only encountered once.

To adjust I sb in the copies of Defense Grid and Jotun Grunts. Tangle Wire is actually better than Ghostly Prison here as well. Engineered Explosives is huge in this matchup since it takes out that evasive Mongoose they start with. I usually dont worry about him much and drop Magus under CotV however. This is probably the only matchup Ive been missing the Exalted for. The ability to end the game quick under CotV was great but Jotun Grunt kills just as easily for cheaper.

Concerning Combo-
I add Glowrider to help against all forms of combo. He's an additional clock which can be needed against Solidarity without the angel. Jotun Grunt also comes in against them. It fits the same role Rule of Law does avoiding Rebuild but it actually kills them at some point and makes Cunning Wish cost 4. Something Rule of Law doesnt do.
Tabernacle comes in against red combo decks for Empty the Warrens.

Concerning Windborn Muse-
This card has already been brought up several times but the shared opinion is he is too fragile without the CotV@1 to sustain his life. Ghostly Prisons enchantment awesomeness hurt aggro stategies since so few are capable of removing enchantments. Creatures however..

Concerning the Man Plan-
I think Ive gone over this well enough above but the option to swap into aggro stack with Duskrider and Grunt is something most of you should test out and take advantage of. It shores up the loss of angel but applies actual game state disruption at the same time.

Concerning Geddon-
Its simply way better than Catastrophe and Cataclysm is antisynergistic with your decks mission. If you have Ravages of War Id do a 2/2 split to avoid the mage issues.

Concerning Null Rod-
I think the fact it messes with your mox, factories, and explosives is good enough reason not to mess with it. There are simply other options that remain one sided. I feel the same about Suppression Field. The card could stunt the opponents development but not quite enough and the longer the games draw out the weaker its effect would get. Paying 2 to fetch a land would be ok. Paying 2 to Vial out a Warcheif is still way too good. IMO Explosives helps fill the Suppression Field role but actually reduces the perms in play and allows you to drop the all mighty CotV@2.

Concerning Leonin Abunas/Karmic Justice-

I did try this guy at some point before I decided to foresake the "Cover your Ass" plan. Its simply not worth it to remain reactive. Even Karmic Justice is a card that DOES NOTHING. No really. Cards that only 'turn on' when your opponent does a certain something are usually bad. The only instance I can think to argue that is Standstill because it 'turns on' when the opponent plays any spell, not one that will blow up Crucible.

In short, being proactive lockdeck > being a reactive control deck.

Concerning mana denial-
I like the tax effect of Ghostly Prison and Magus but both are effective enough on their own to stand alone. Rishadin Port and Wasteland can be too weak on their own and often only become too much of a good thing when coupled with the geddons. The current state of denial seems strongest.

Concerning Crystal Vein-
I've been testing alot with the Crystal Veins and all I can say is the amount of times they save your ass by bumbing you ahead a mana far outnumber the times you'll wish it was a Wasteland/Port.

Theres another long drawn out post for a long drawn out deck.

Hanni
06-16-2007, 12:31 PM
I've been keeping up with this thread and really like the deck concept. I created my own little spin on it by splashing blue, and to a lesser extent green. It's probably horrible, but I thought it was a rather interesting idea:

W/U/g Stax Ungiven

Lands (22)
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Mishra's Factory
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Creatures (7)
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Windborn Muse

Spells (31)
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Ravages of War
2 Armageddon
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Life from the Loam
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Mox Diamond

Sideboard (15)
4 Glowrider
4 Defense Grid
1 Powder Keg
1 Ensaring Bridge
1 Tangle Wire
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Jester's Cap
1 Maze of Ith

For more info: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6069

Milan_Dunaldy
06-19-2007, 09:22 PM
Hi,

I see you have finally adopted armageddon. Next step: drop smokestack. I played the following list with great succes. I won a local tournament (1,5 years ago) of 54 players. I must say I encountered no pikula and landstill but: sensei sensei, nausea storm, ugr threshold, ur fish, ug madness and rw aggro - all of which got eaten alive by this deck (2-0, 1 time 2-1 though because of a playing error on my account).

Against combo the addition of rule of law makes it near impossible to win for them. Against goblins that card is Sphere of Law. I must admit Empty the Warrens didn't exist yet back then.

The reason I play this list is because I very thoroughly tested it (also inlcuding sideboard). I find that without card advantage consistency has to be maxed, and you dan do that only by playing a lot of 4-ofs. It also provides maximum synergy.

The manabase has proven to be the most optimal for this deck. I almost never get manascrewed (unless against pikula). 14 white mana sources is a must to generate WW for angel and wrath.

The only decks I have trouble with are Landstill and Pikula. Landstill is winnable, defense grid helps a lot. But against Pikula I'm a big underdog. Light of Day is only a crying call... I will test Duskrider Peregrine, though I tested something faster like Nightwind Glider. Only problem is you have to draw it.

I consistenly win (+75%) against somewhat all the rest of the decks. I could elaborate on details as to why, and which MU's are slightly better others but the testing has happened 1,5 year ago and more so I don't rememebr all of it. Roughly it was best to worst: Rifter, Threshold, all combo (Burn, IGGy, Solidarity mostly), random aggro, Goblins, Fish, Pox --gap-- Faerie Stompy, Survival (lots of mana critters) --gap-- landstill (disks) --big gap-- Pikula (almost unwinnable). The gaps indicate descents in winning percentage.

The list is more than a year old, and I have only recently icluded the flagstones because of their synergy. You absolutely don't want to draw 2 of them I noticed, so only 2. Drawing land isn't bad in this deck, especially since i agressively use armageddon. Often I win because I simply have more land in my deck than the opponent. This is also the reason I win without smokestack.

I haven't tested Magus of the Tabernacle but at first sight Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is strictly better:
-It is al land, so discards to mox.
-It costs 0 instead of 4.
-1 tax effect is enough, you want to drop it (or recur with crucible) after an armageddon.
-It doens't have to pay upkeep to itself.
-It doesn't die to Wrath of God.

Damping Matrix substitutes needles (which don't work together with chalice) and are MD answer to:
Goblins: Siege-Gang, Sharpshooter, Kiki-Jiki, Fanatic and most importantly Aether Vial
Fish: Lavamancer, Jitte, Sensei's Top
Madness: Aquamoebe, Wild Mongrel
...allready enough reasons to realize this is a bomb. If you don't, test it yourself.

4 Angels is a must. Turbo-Angel mode has won me a good enough deal of matches to justify 4. And when the first one gets plowed, it's nice to replace her when you got the chalice/3sphere set up.

4 Mishra's are too, as they work well against aggro and speed up your clock.

4 Wastelands keeps people off color. Against white Threshold it keeps meddling mages and swords away, ...

All right, this is my list:

//NAME: Exageddon

4 Wrath of God
4 Armageddon
4 Exalted Angel
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Damping Matrix
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

4 Mox Diamond
2 Flagstones of Trokair
8 Plains
4 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

// Sideboard

3 Light of Day
4 Rule of Law
3 Sphere of Law
4 Defense Grid
1 Trinisphere

sammiel
06-19-2007, 11:33 PM
is this a joke? Here's a hint, Magus of the Tabernacle survives armageddon, doesn't die to wasteland, doesn't really die to *ANYTHING* vs goblins, and doesnt cost 60 bucks.

Damping Matrix + Factory is not tech.

Drop smokestack = lol, armageddon is a huge bomb, but smokestack is what locks the game away.

Ditch the wraths and get with the program.

Milan_Dunaldy
06-20-2007, 10:27 AM
try it yourself.

you don't need smokestack to win when you got armageddon, it's as simple as that. it wins in vintage, but it comes hopelessly late in legacy.

as i said i haven't tested magus yet. i'd replace the 4 WoG with him, but 2 pendrell en 4 WoG have worked out great against gobo's, especially after sideboard. I don't say magus is bad, i just say pendrell vale is better, but i will try it. the list is made before PC came out.

damping matrix doens't interfere with the creature-making ability of factory, since it's a LAND. you cant tap it to pump itself that's true, but the matrix disrupts the opponent a lot more than it does you. gotta know when to drop it.

so, before you give any theoretical "proof" of why this doesn't work,

try it and test it.

Silverdragon
06-20-2007, 11:02 AM
Personally I prefer Suppression Field over Damping Matrix because with 4 Moxen, 4 Flagstones and 8 Plains it is just as fast and as easy to cast as Damping Matrix but protects your own lands from opposing Ports and Wastelands too in addition to hosing Fetchlands. With 4 Factories and 4 Wastelands maindeck Damping Matrix is of course the better maindeck choice however I was always satisfied with boarding in Fields in the matchups where they are relevant.
Correct me if I'm wrong but lately "Staxless Stax" was far more successful than traditional Stax in Vintage. It is true Smokestack is slow as hell but that is far more relevant in Vintage than in Legacy.
I've cut down to 3 Smokestack in my list because the format has sped up however Smokestack has still uses because it gives you outs against almost all the randomness you may face in this format and acts as additional boardsweeper sometimes. The downside of playing with Smokestack is that your deck needs a high permanent count to further break the symetry of the card.
Were I to cut the Smokestacks completely I'd retool the deck to include more lands (preferably Wastelands or Ghost Quarter) and carddrawing spells turning it into some kind of UW control (Landstill *ahem*).
Without either Smokestack or some form of carddrawing this deck gets far too dependant on topdecking. All the lockpieces in this deck serve as a way to accumulate virtual cardadvantage, Smokestack is simply the one lockpiece that guarantees actual cardadvantage.
Btw Nightwind Glider is a fine choice if you can reach 3 mana however I still prefer Peregrine because aside from only needing 1W to suspend it is also big enough to kill Rotting Giants and Wretched Anurids and doesn't die to a single Cursed Scroll.

Bane of the Living
06-20-2007, 06:03 PM
Hi,

I see you have finally adopted armageddon. Next step: drop smokestack. I played the following list with great succes. I won a local tournament (1,5 years ago) of 54 players. I must say I encountered no pikula and landstill but: sensei sensei, nausea storm, ugr threshold, ur fish, ug madness and rw aggro - all of which got eaten alive by this deck (2-0, 1 time 2-1 though because of a playing error on my account).

Against combo the addition of rule of law makes it near impossible to win for them. Against goblins that card is Sphere of Law. I must admit Empty the Warrens didn't exist yet back then.

The reason I play this list is because I very thoroughly tested it (also inlcuding sideboard). I find that without card advantage consistency has to be maxed, and you dan do that only by playing a lot of 4-ofs. It also provides maximum synergy.

The manabase has proven to be the most optimal for this deck. I almost never get manascrewed (unless against pikula). 14 white mana sources is a must to generate WW for angel and wrath.

The only decks I have trouble with are Landstill and Pikula. Landstill is winnable, defense grid helps a lot. But against Pikula I'm a big underdog. Light of Day is only a crying call... I will test Duskrider Peregrine, though I tested something faster like Nightwind Glider. Only problem is you have to draw it.

I consistenly win (+75%) against somewhat all the rest of the decks. I could elaborate on details as to why, and which MU's are slightly better others but the testing has happened 1,5 year ago and more so I don't rememebr all of it. Roughly it was best to worst: Rifter, Threshold, all combo (Burn, IGGy, Solidarity mostly), random aggro, Goblins, Fish, Pox --gap-- Faerie Stompy, Survival (lots of mana critters) --gap-- landstill (disks) --big gap-- Pikula (almost unwinnable). The gaps indicate descents in winning percentage.

The list is more than a year old, and I have only recently icluded the flagstones because of their synergy. You absolutely don't want to draw 2 of them I noticed, so only 2. Drawing land isn't bad in this deck, especially since i agressively use armageddon. Often I win because I simply have more land in my deck than the opponent. This is also the reason I win without smokestack.

I haven't tested Magus of the Tabernacle but at first sight Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is strictly better:
-It is al land, so discards to mox.
-It costs 0 instead of 4.
-1 tax effect is enough, you want to drop it (or recur with crucible) after an armageddon.
-It doens't have to pay upkeep to itself.
-It doesn't die to Wrath of God.

Damping Matrix substitutes needles (which don't work together with chalice) and are MD answer to:
Goblins: Siege-Gang, Sharpshooter, Kiki-Jiki, Fanatic and most importantly Aether Vial
Fish: Lavamancer, Jitte, Sensei's Top
Madness: Aquamoebe, Wild Mongrel
...allready enough reasons to realize this is a bomb. If you don't, test it yourself.

4 Angels is a must. Turbo-Angel mode has won me a good enough deal of matches to justify 4. And when the first one gets plowed, it's nice to replace her when you got the chalice/3sphere set up.

4 Mishra's are too, as they work well against aggro and speed up your clock.

4 Wastelands keeps people off color. Against white Threshold it keeps meddling mages and swords away, ...

All right, this is my list:

//NAME: Exageddon

4 Wrath of God
4 Armageddon
4 Exalted Angel
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Damping Matrix
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

4 Mox Diamond
2 Flagstones of Trokair
8 Plains
4 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

// Sideboard

3 Light of Day
4 Rule of Law
3 Sphere of Law
4 Defense Grid
1 Trinisphere

I hate when people like you bust onto the source and claim to be the endless well of knowledge concerning a deck we've been developing for years.

It's fine that this is the built you prefer but its terribly out dated and has some development flaws concerning the mana curve.

One at a time...

1) Play four Ancient Tomb. It doesnt matter that it deals damage to you, the deal is too great. City of Traitors is much more a problem as a 4 of since you'll have a greater chance of drawing multiple.

2) Play four Flagstones. Your legendary problem isnt even a problem. Thinning two lands out of a deck with no card draw is tech. Its only gonna cost you -1 mana for the turn since the newer copy will die and replace itself with a tapped land. The card is far too good with Armageddon and Smokestack to not abuse at its full four copies.

4) Dont play Wrath of God. The best creatures in the format are now 1/1's that come into play in droves on turns 1-2. Casting WoG against Empty the Warrens is having delusions of granduer. Casting WoG against Goblins is an uphill battle against their copies of Wasteland and Port. I havent missed this card since I replaced it with Magus.

5) Play 3-4 Magus. Hes amazing against Empty the Warrens even if he's 4 mana depending on your manabase. Notice Machinus has a base concentrating on a high number of 2 colorless mana producing lands. He's got huge chances to drop him turns 2-3. He completely crushes goblins if he resolves. He's far to large to gemplam out and kills anything in combat. 2 Magus out at once are a complete auto win which is good reason to play 4.

It really doesnt matter what your win condition is in this deck as long as its there. If you can lock the game well enough with Crucible + Stack or CotVx2-3, you just need to play draw go till you find Magus or Factories. Angel is under performing in the deck.

6) Try Peregrine out. His body and flying make a big impact on the matchup. The fact that you can Suspend him early and easily keeps him safe from Hippy and Hymn's.

7) Play Smokestack. There's no arguement you can actually give to cut it. Theres no reason your deck is better without it. It might be slow in some matchups but its not meant to come into play turns 1-2. Your suppose to apply lock then finalize with it.

Amon Amarth
06-21-2007, 06:26 PM
I've been playing the crap outa this deck lately. It's awesome. This is the best version of Stax I've played in Legacy thus far. The only problem I've had is with Engineered Explosives. That guy sucks hard in this deck. And is even worse with a Trinisphere out. I'm playing Machinus' list with Powder Keg instead of EE and have been really happy with it. Being able to take down double Tarmogoyf or WoG Goblins board at 3 is really good.

Machinus
06-21-2007, 07:49 PM
Keg and Explosives are really similar cards that differ just in a few situations. I don't consider it a major change to run one over the other since the metagames in this format are so diverse that one could easily be better than the other depending on your environment.

I have tested more than four geddons and I am finding that I don't really want that many. I want to set up, cast it once, and then exploit that advantage until I win the game. Having really good setup cards means geddon wins the game when it resolves, but sometimes you don't need it. Also, relying too much on the armageddon means you are in trouble if it gets countered. The threat of the lock needs to be shared between multiple components, across costs and card types.

Gheizen64
06-21-2007, 08:17 PM
I tested this deck a little and i found that Magus dies a little too often for me. 6 toughness help, but double bolt and sword to plowshare are an occurrance that i find too often. Without Magus the deck have essentialy no out, as it dies to creature. Maybe we should play also other good anti-aggro creature? A card between Masticore (regeneration and strong ping ability, plus with crucible the discard clause is someway offset), Windborn Muse (useful against Warren Combo, General aggro deck, but very weak against removal) or Exalted Angel (high toughness, strong ability + evasion, High mana cost and double colored). Or maybe a win condition that's not a creature (nothing pop to my mind right now, except Barren Glory :/ )

edgewalker
06-21-2007, 08:44 PM
Windborn Muse dies to single bolt, Magus lives to single bolt. All of the creatures cept core die to stp or double bolt. Magus is just to essential to this deck to pass up.

If you're worried about STP and Bolt, then play a chalice at 1

Bane of the Living
06-22-2007, 04:11 PM
Yea Chalice should come down before Magus in matchups with StP. Unless you really need to run him out there. Getting a 2 for 1 if they double bolt him at least saved you 6 life and you should be running 3 more anyways.

Machinus
06-22-2007, 04:23 PM
Goblins has to get six creatures in play to kill Magus with incinerator, or five plus Mogg Fanatic. Or, have Siege-Gang in play and untap with six mana.

It's a lot less powerful against Threshold, but it's not a key card in that matchup anyway. Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere already wrecks their draw engine (cantrips) and removal (stp, needle).

Bane of the Living
06-22-2007, 06:48 PM
Goblins has to get six creatures in play to kill Magus with incinerator, or five plus Mogg Fanatic. Or, have Siege-Gang in play and untap with six mana.



This is probably a good point to mention Ive never ever had goblins remove a Magus from play. Come to think of it, I cant think of a game I've lost against them after dropping him.

BreathWeapon
06-22-2007, 08:16 PM
Question from the combo bleachers,

If a combo deck isn't using Empty the Warrens, can you actually SB out all of your anti-Empty the Warrens cards for anti-combo cards? I figure you can at least SB out Ghostly Prison for Glowrider, Magus of the Tabernacle and Windborn Muse can remain because of their clock, but are those Engineered Explosives just being exchanged for another clock?

The deck does look like a Belcher/TES combo killing machine, I got whacked by it pretty hard on MWS.

Edit: Also, I think Fetchlands/Dual Lands are worth it even if the second color isn't adding much to the MD/SB, because being able to set Engineered Explosives on 2 is clutch against aggro-control. Green has some good stuff for the SB to, Choke and Root Maze are awesome against aggro-control.

Cait_Sith
06-22-2007, 08:41 PM
Do you remember the name of the dude who beat you up BW?

Also, I run a similar deck so, I always keep some Ghostly type effects against TES.

BreathWeapon
06-22-2007, 09:57 PM
Do you remember the name of the dude who beat you up BW?

Also, I run a similar deck so, I always keep some Ghostly type effects against TES.

It was a German that didn't speak a lot of English, I don't remember what his handle was off hand.

Right now I'm testing combo decks that don't use Empty the Warrens, so while I understand that the taxing effects stay in against TES, I'm more interesting in figuring out whether or not there's anything beyond Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void that I should be worried about game 2 and whether or not I can get away with SBing in Empty the Warrens game 3 if enough of the tax effects are boarded out.

Like, if you had to play against High Tide on a regular basis, what would your SBing plan be?

sammiel
06-22-2007, 10:35 PM
against High Tide, you want Rule of Law as a minimum. You must have a lock piece that survives Cunning Wish into Recall/Rebuild

Machinus
06-22-2007, 10:53 PM
Actually, Trinisphere is close to game over for them. They only have two outs before you Smokestack/Armageddon:

1) Survive to six mana to wish and bounce EOT.

2) Bounce + FoW on turn four, or Bounce + Remand on turn five.


Tangle Wire is good against both of these plans.

xsockmonkeyx
06-22-2007, 10:56 PM
It was a German that didn't speak a lot of English, I don't remember what his handle was off hand.

Right now I'm testing combo decks that don't use Empty the Warrens, so while I understand that the taxing effects stay in against TES, I'm more interesting in figuring out whether or not there's anything beyond Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void that I should be worried about game 2 and whether or not I can get away with SBing in Empty the Warrens game 3 if enough of the tax effects are boarded out.

Like, if you had to play against High Tide on a regular basis, what would your SBing plan be?

Glowrider comes in G2 vs combo. Against Solidarity there is Defense Grid as well. Rule of Law is also an option.

BreathWeapon
06-22-2007, 11:28 PM
Yeah, Rule of Law looks like the best generic hoser, thanks.

ClearSkies
06-23-2007, 12:09 AM
As Armageddon Stax, what would you sideboard against Deadguy Ale type decks? (Black/White land destruction with discard effects)

So far, I came up with Tangle Wire and Bottled Cloister, but it doesn't seem to be enough. From the earlier White Stax threads, people said that reactive cards like Karmic Justice, Hana's Custody, and Scared Ground doesn't really help all that much.

sammiel
06-23-2007, 12:53 AM
you lose.

Unless you dedicate narrow sideboard slots to fix these matchups, you just lose. You'll pull some games out, but those decks are a horrible matchup for stax.

Bane of the Living
06-23-2007, 10:29 AM
Do you guys read the thread at all before asking questions?

Against black aggro decks bring in Bottled Cloister and Tangle Wire if your sticking to Machinus' built. Cloister will probably = a win if it resolves as long as they arent playing The Rack. (They stack damage before your hand returns).

Tangle Wire acts like multiple time walks against them since everything in their deck is sorcery speed.

If your playing my build bring in Duskrider Peregrine. He blocks everything in the deck giving you ample time to restock your hand. He jumps out of your hand early to avoid discard, he cant be Vindicated or Scrolled. Chalice protects him from Bolt/Chain. He also kills the opponent quite efficiently.

Again..

Duskrider Peregrine

If black is a big part of your meta pick them up. Play with them. I really cant stress how good this guy is for you.

I also bring in Jotun Grunt occasionally since they side out alot of removal, you become a 5/3 style deck out of no where. Black decks feed him well.

Against non EtW combo I bring in Sphere of Resistance and Glowrider. I like the rider over Rule of Law since it's actually a clock. It helps put pressure on combo at two angles.

@BreathWeapon
Why the hell are you playing non EtW combo?? If its to avoid the hate I refer you to the age old "There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers".

For reference my new sb..

4 Defense Grid
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Glowrider
1 Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale
3 Duskrider Peregrine
3 Jotun Grunt

Defense Grid comes in against blue and Solidarity. The extra tabernacle effect is for goblins and EtW. Notice the significant man plan in the sb. This is huge if you need to go to three games due to time constraints. Winning the game on time is tech. You should all give this board a go. If black based decks arent a problem for you swap the Peregrine with Tangle Wire.

sammiel
06-23-2007, 10:57 AM
Against solidarity you have no answer to Cunning Wish into Hurkyll's Recall/Rebuild pre or post-board. I think those glowriders need to be rules of law, other than that I like the SB. The problem with peregrine is that it may be great against B/W, but it's terrible against B/R.

Also, and I think Emidin has covered this in great detail in his primer for R/G stax, but what matchups does tangle wire help that aren't already favorable ones?

Silverdragon
06-23-2007, 12:22 PM
Against solidarity you have no answer to Cunning Wish into Hurkyll's Recall/Rebuild pre or post-board.
Playing Solidarity, against Stax you have no answer except Force of Will and Cunning Wish into Hurkyll's Recall/Rebuild... Defense Grid solves the former and Armageddon solves the latter.

The problem with peregrine is that it may be great against B/W, but it's terrible against B/R.

The problem with Bottled Cloister is that it may be great against B/R but it's terrible against B/W... Choose your poison ;)
B/R has bigger creatures so there's a chance Peregrine will never come out of suspend before you die, however once he is on the table only Phyrexian Negator can get through so he's not that bad. As has been stated Chalice of the Void can protect him from Bolts but Dystopia is a pain (although Peregrine helps protect your other white cards for a turn).
In conclusion I'll keep the Peregrine because of his "lower" casting cost and because all the black decks I've seen so far in my meta splash white. Should you encounter more red splash sui decks (meaning no Disenchant effects) Bottled Cloister sure is a good alternative.

Glowrider performs the same role as Rule of Law. It is a lockpiece that cannot be bounced together with your artifacts but unlike Rule of Law it also kills the opponent. That is especially relevant as bane said if you need to finish the match in time because you can switch to the "man plan" and just go beat down backed up with ressource denial.

My guess for Tangle Wire is that it gets boarded in against almost all decks but the cards that go out for it are different every time. Like the fourth copy of a card that you couldn't quite squeeze into the maindeck because you want to play *random one-of* to improve your preboard matchup against deck xy.

Bane of the Living
06-23-2007, 12:37 PM
Against solidarity you have no answer to Cunning Wish into Hurkyll's Recall/Rebuild pre or post-board. I think those glowriders need to be rules of law, other than that I like the SB. The problem with peregrine is that it may be great against B/W, but it's terrible against B/R.

Also, and I think Emidin has covered this in great detail in his primer for R/G stax, but what matchups does tangle wire help that aren't already favorable ones?

Against Solidarity I still have Glowrider which mass artifact bounce doesnt hit. I dont see why your worried so much. Gearhart himself couldnt squeeze himself out of that situation when I played him without Rule or Rider. Getting Defense Grid -> Smokestack -> 3Sphere -> CotV all out aggressively in pretty much any order is just too much of a beating. They can get the 6 mana for Cunning Wish -> Recall sometimes if you cant drop a Stack but if you have a Defense Grid out there's really no hope for them. Since your palying Geddon now I dont see them reaching 5 mana even.

Your wrong about Peregrine. Red Death cant Bolt/Chain him with Chalice out so that leaves them as a mono black deck vs a pro black 3/3 flyer yet again. You dont always need the chalice either since any smart Red Death player will surely be smart enough to board out his burn/removal..

Your right on Tangle Wire. I feel it still improves the black and Landstill matchups quite a bit, which can both be problematic, but Ive dropped it from my board since my meta disregards those matchups atm.

Like Silverdragon said, Bottled Cloister gets Vindicated and can lose you the game. Negator is still an issue but you can stall him with Prison or Factory till you see a Magus or Peregrine. Its probably worth noting you want Jotun Grunt against Negators and Rotting Giants for the early protection.

BreathWeapon
06-23-2007, 05:14 PM
@BreathWeapon
Why the hell are you playing non EtW combo?? If its to avoid the hate I refer you to the age old "There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers".


Because the deck is U/b with 4 Tendrils and no access to red mana game one.

Bane of the Living
06-23-2007, 06:16 PM
Because the deck is U/b with 4 Tendrils and no access to red mana game one.

I guess I meant.. Why would you play a combo deck that doesnt run Empty the Warrens? I'd only make an exception for Gamekeeper. Aside from that storm combo should always figure out how to produce a red mana for 12 goblin tokens.

What other matchups are people finding problems with? I have difficult times with decks that features LftL or Crucible. Moreso Crucible since you can shut down loam decks with Chalice@2. Crucible will never leave the table. My short sighted plan is Jotun Grunts.

Cait_Sith
06-23-2007, 06:22 PM
Actually, Trinisphere is close to game over for them.

Actually of all combo decks, Trinisphere hurts Solidarity the least. I've played games where I've had Trini out and they go off around it thanks to... Turnabout. I forget that could tap my Trini to shut it off, but it can.

BreathWeapon
06-23-2007, 07:11 PM
I guess I meant.. Why would you play a combo deck that doesnt run Empty the Warrens? I'd only make an exception for Gamekeeper. Aside from that storm combo should always figure out how to produce a red mana for 12 goblin tokens.

What other matchups are people finding problems with? I have difficult times with decks that features LftL or Crucible. Moreso Crucible since you can shut down loam decks with Chalice@2. Crucible will never leave the table. My short sighted plan is Jotun Grunts.

It depends on the deck, for instance if I'm using 4 Infernal Contract, 4 Cruel Bargain and sacrificing Lion's Eye Diamond for black mana, the odds of me having red mana for Empty the Warrens and not being able to win with Tendrils of Agony instead are low.

You also have to reconsider the traditional threat versus answer paradigm, because that philosophy is based on Goblin Lackey vs Swords to Plowshares and not Empty the Warrens vs Pyroclasm comparisons. If an opponent Swords to Plowshares a Goblin Lackey, the Goblins player doesn't lose, if an opponent Pyroclasms and Empty the Warrens, the combo player loses. Empty the Warrens is comparable to Worldgorger Dragon, it turns the opponent's "answers" into "win conditions."

On the one hand, you want the threat of Empty the Warrens in order to get the opponent to consider countering your acceleration, but on the other hand, you really don't want to see an Empty the Warrens resolve and then get Stifled/removed. Ask yourself whether or not you'd want to play a combo deck with 3 MD Empty the Warrens and 4 MD Burning Wish against a control deck with 4 MD Sandstorm and 4 MD Pernicious Deed and you'll understand the position I'm in.

xsockmonkeyx
06-23-2007, 09:19 PM
Actually of all combo decks, Trinisphere hurts Solidarity the least. I've played games where I've had Trini out and they go off around it thanks to... Turnabout. I forget that could tap my Trini to shut it off, but it can.

Sucker :P

bondafong
06-25-2007, 01:24 PM
Have you thought about playing 1-2x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale?
I think it would fit the deck nicely

Bane of the Living
06-25-2007, 05:07 PM
Have you thought about playing 1-2x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale?
I think it would fit the deck nicely

I play one copy in my sideboard.

@BreathWeapon
But there are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. I dont like Contract Tendrils because it scoops to mage.

It sucks just as bad to get Tendrils Stifled. Its an advantage to attack from two kill mechanics.

emidln
06-25-2007, 08:23 PM
I play one copy in my sideboard.

@BreathWeapon
But there are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. I dont like Contract Tendrils because it scoops to mage.

It sucks just as bad to get Tendrils Stifled. Its an advantage to attack from two kill mechanics.

SI doesn't scoop to mage. In all tested builds (outside of the one labeled "QSI" that comes with a warning saying that I'm testing secondary win conditions) there are at least 2 win conditions maindeck. You will always find Tendrils, and then either ETW, Brain Freeze, or Goblin Charbelcher, sometimes accompanied by Tomb of Urami.

Silverdragon
06-25-2007, 08:52 PM
Could you please stop discussing SI Tendrils in this thread?
Generally I avoid playing cards against combo in the sideboard of this deck because you already have a good matchup against fast combo (I admit it is debatable how good it is but so far I have a winnig record against TES, IGGy Pop and Belcher). I'd much rather play cards that help in my bad matchups.
Of course there is an exception when the cards I use to improve bad matchups are also good against good matchups or are part of a transformational sideboard. For example Tormod's Crypt against Loam and IGGy Pop or the "man plan" that Bane of the Living is playing with Glowrider as additional combo hoser but most importantly as a creature to beat down.

The original Tabernacle is good as a one of but it has the drawback of taking a "spell slot" in the deck so it has to be tested what can be cut for it. Another factor why you won't see it in the majority of tournament decks is its availability. It took a friend of mine months to find one on ebay.

emidln
06-25-2007, 08:57 PM
When I was writing about Tangle Wire, I was writing from the perspective of a red-based stax deck. While I'm relatively sure that you'll find the same, I'd highly encourage you to take notes when you play with the card and look at why it is/is not good in each matchup. I personally hated the card against B/W Confidant because they could almost always drop a dude then tap lands while I'm scrambling to get around my own Tangle Wire. In my mind, it was only win more there since it would help their own LD element when I was losing, and marginally help (to possibly hinder) while I was winning.

The way I look at it, these are the most effective cards against Solidarity:

// Stuff that prevents Solidarity from comboing
Boil
Boiling Seas
Armageddon/Ravages of War
Burning Wish -> Boiling Seas
Chalice of the Void
Smokestack
Braids
Wildfire/P3k Wildfire

// Stuff that slows Solidarity down (sometimes Significantly)
Trinisphere
Nether Void
Goblin Welder with Uba Mask in the deck (not necessarily in play)
Glowrider
Sphere of Resistance
Juggernaut/Exalted Angel/fat dude for 3/4 mana
Uba Mask
Pyroblast/REB
Defense Grid
Goblin Welder without Uba Mask in the deck (in conjunction with Trinisphere, Smokestack)
Tangle Wire
Pithing Needle
Sylvan Library/library manipulation

The general idea is that mass land destruction is best, with recurring LD and sphere effects slightly below that. Fatties to add pressure/Defense Grid/Welder/Tangle Wire/Pithing Needle can sometimes each add to the higher-level stuff, but generally will not take it's place. The thing about Tangle Wire is that Solidarity can simply float mana for their bounce spell and then bounce stuff at their leisure. If you have a Trinisphere out, then they can't get to 2 mana and just reset it out and go off, but if you have a Trinisphere, you'd much rather see a mass LD effect like Armageddon or a recurring effect like Smokestack.

Pyroblast/REB are interesting if you also have Needle since it can answer mass bounce while also stopping their combo (by hitting an untap spell). It is extremely unlikely they have countermagic left in hand due to your other lock pieces acting as Duress, so this is more effective here. This is probably most effective if you have other 1cc threats like Needle or Welder and would rather Chalice @ 2,3 than 1,3.

For reference, my RG builds generally have:

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Boil
4 Goblin Welder
2-4 Pithing Needle (name Flooded Strand, then Polluted Delta)
0-4 Rolling Earthquake (acts as a fattie to speed up the clock from factories and welders)
2 Uba Mask
0-3 Sylvan Library

and I rarely drop a game 2 or 3 to Solidarity (generally only to mulling to 4 or worse).

It seems that you could easily support:

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Armageddon
2-4 Pithing Needle/Suppression Field (Needle is better, but if you run Field, it's not completely awful...)
4-6 Fatties

without much trouble. With the key to the matchup being resolving an LD element (Ravages/Armageddon/Smokestack), adding in extra Armageddon effects would not be the worst call, especially given their usefulness against things like Landstill which I seem to see rumblings about. If you did go with more geddon effects, filling out extra slots (2-3) with Defense Grid in order to better resolve the spells might be acceptable, but it seems like you would have better options against other decks.

@ Bottled Cloister's usage against B/W Deadguy

If they Vindicate your Cloister you lose. That seems suboptimal to give them a 1BW "win the game" spell as a 4-of, maybe up to an 8-of if they play Disenchant/Seal of Cleansing/Serenity (although you pretty much lose anyway if they run Serenity unless you turbo-play Chalice @ 2).

Machinus
06-29-2007, 02:39 PM
I've been testing a new list:

3 Armageddon
3 Ravages of War
4 Smokestack
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Trinisphere
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Crystal Vein
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flagstones of Trokair
6 Plains

SB:
4 Defense Grid
4 Seal of Cleansing
4 Duskrider Peregrine
3 Rule of Law


I still think the geddon number is too high as I previosly commented. The deck has a lot of strong openings. It still feels like there isn't enough board control sometimes. I miss Tangle Wire a bit.

BreathWeapon
06-29-2007, 10:58 PM
I play one copy in my sideboard.

@BreathWeapon
But there are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. I dont like Contract Tendrils because it scoops to mage.

It sucks just as bad to get Tendrils Stifled. Its an advantage to attack from two kill mechanics.

That quote isn't analogous to the issue, Empty the Warrens is becoming a lose condition for combo because it gives the opponent at least a turn to untap and answer it. Tendrils of Agony and Goblin Charbelcher don't give the opponent non-counter spell based answers to your threat that every one will either SB or MD because they also serve general uses.

I'm not saying I'm cutting the single MD Empty the Warrens and SB Empty the Warrens from TES, or even three MD Empty the Warrens in TES and 4 MD Empty the Warrens in SI (you really want them to counter your Dark Rituals). I'm saying it's a bad idea to have to rely on Empty the Warrens as a win condition like Belcher has to. The people who figure out non-Empty the Warrens based combo are going to have a distinct advantage over Empty the Warrens based combo because they ignore your copious removal for it.

B4L4
06-30-2007, 04:27 AM
Here is the list that give me the best results on mws

// Lands
6 [PT] Plains (3)
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)

// Creatures
4 [PC] Magus of the Tabernacle

// Spells
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [PT] Armageddon
2 [P3] Ravages of War
4 [US] Smokestack
3 [RAV] Faith's Fetters

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 [MR] Leonin Abunas
SB: 2 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 2 [LE] Glowrider
SB: 1 [US] Temporal Aperture
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Angel isn't really that the deck need (it was what i feel when i was playing Angelstacks, angel was just winning some unanswered turn 1 morph turn 2 4/5..)

Here is the big change in the list : 3 Faith's Fetters, woah, they are really good, whereas it was a bit too risky to cast angel as a 2/2 vs aggro, faith give us the tools num 3 vs aggro (after Magus and Prison)

Maybe in that list, u can cut 1 mishra for 1 plain (6 plain + 4 flagstone + 4 mox is sometimes short to cast white spells, or to hold a long flagstone + smokestacks@2 lock)
Mishra never block ealy game vs aggro (or in very particular case), cause u rather want to take 2 dmg and be able to cast a big spell, than loosing mishra to a bolt :/

spider900
07-08-2007, 04:11 PM
Hey Guys,

have you considered Aven Mindcensor as a SB or even as a MD option? I think it's very powerful against combo, 'cause every combo needs Tutors and you can drop him in response 'cause he has flash. Furthermore he shuts down Fetchlands which can be extremly powerful against 4c+ Decks or against ********, too. Another positive aspect to metion is that he only affects your opponent, so that you can use your Flagstones as normal.

What are you thinkin'?

Silverdragon
07-08-2007, 06:31 PM
Aven Mindcensor is good but nowhere near as broken as in Vintage currently. The thing is we don't need a lot of cards against combo in the sideboard and if we did there are better options like Glowrider, Sphere of Resistance, Rule of Law. Against Fetchlands we already have a good option too in Suppression Field which is also strong against Vial, Wasteland, Rishardan Port, Cycling cards, Survival and a lot of other activated nonsense.
Additionally you have to consider the bad synergy with Magus of the Tabernacle. Cards like Exalted Angel, Jötun Grunt and Duskrider Peregrine are only played because they can swing a match all by themselves. However even these aren't played in most lists.

Silverdragon
07-22-2007, 05:36 PM
Sorry for the double post but I feel it is necessary.
Some people I talked with suggested Horizon Canopy as a drawengine with Crucible and to get more colors for EE. Splashing green you could also get access to Sylvan Library which is quite strong in Stax even if you can't always pay for the extra cards.
The list I'm currently testing looks like this:
4 Armageddon
4 Smokestack
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
2 Sylvan Library
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Savannah
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Plains

You have 9 ways to get green mana (not counting having your Flagstones destroyed). So far opposing LD hasn't been a problem but I didn't test much yet.
Even without Angels and with Sylvan Libraries I think 25 lands is a must and Horizon Canopy can turn into a pseudospell if needed. The list is far less explosive than those playing Crystal Veins but makes up for it with amazing comebacks and a stronger game against control thanks to Sylvan Library.
Some metagames may require you to run more Explosives main but I don't know what to cut for them yet (in this list). However I think the sideboard has a lot of customizable space to work with.
One last thought: Uba Mask is definitely a lot worse here than in Sun Tower or its variants. You don't have Goblin Welder and you want to keep your Armageddons in hand if possible most of the time.

emidln
07-22-2007, 07:38 PM
Sorry for the double post but I feel it is necessary.
Some people I talked with suggested Horizon Canopy as a drawengine with Crucible and to get more colors for EE. Splashing green you could also get access to Sylvan Library which is quite strong in Stax even if you can't always pay for the extra cards.
The list I'm currently testing looks like this:
4 Armageddon
4 Smokestack
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
2 Sylvan Library
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Savannah
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Plains

You have 9 ways to get green mana (not counting having your Flagstones destroyed). So far opposing LD hasn't been a problem but I didn't test much yet.
Even without Angels and with Sylvan Libraries I think 25 lands is a must and Horizon Canopy can turn into a pseudospell if needed. The list is far less explosive than those playing Crystal Veins but makes up for it with amazing comebacks and a stronger game against control thanks to Sylvan Library.
Some metagames may require you to run more Explosives main but I don't know what to cut for them yet (in this list). However I think the sideboard has a lot of customizable space to work with.
One last thought: Uba Mask is definitely a lot worse here than in Sun Tower or its variants. You don't have Goblin Welder and you want to keep your Armageddons in hand if possible most of the time.

Additionally, green gives you access to Krosan Grip, which I've found to be really hot when there was a bunch of Aluren around me. Also, the reason to play Sylvan Library in Sun Tower variants is no longer Uba Mask. We found an even more synergistic card to abuse, but it's unfortunately red. Sylvan Library seems like it would give a great benefit to smoothing out your draws in this build though. I might even consider going up to 3 main.

Silverdragon
07-22-2007, 08:02 PM
We found an even more synergistic card to abuse, but it's unfortunately red.

Now you have me interested. Care to share your tech?

Anyway I just did a couple testgames versus Rg Goblins preboard and went 2-3. I lost one game because of a mulligan to 4 and mulliganed to 5 in another. Goblins didn't mulligan and had first turn Lackey 4 out of 5 times. Sylvan Library was great (more like amazing) and Horizon Canopy was ok. Sadly most of the mulligans were because the hands would've lost to a single Wasteland. I'd have kept all but one if the Savannahs were basic Plains. There were 2-3 situations I wished Canopy was Wasteland and in one of those situations I'd have won almost on the spot with Wasteland.
If I had to make a decision now I'd stay with monoW at least against Goblins however as this was a really small sample size (and even without boarding) I'll keep testing.

emidln
07-22-2007, 08:14 PM
Now you have me interested. Care to share your tech?

Anyway I just did a couple testgames versus Rg Goblins preboard and went 2-3. I lost one game because of a mulligan to 4 and mulliganed to 5 in another. Goblins didn't mulligan and had first turn Lackey 4 out of 5 times. Sylvan Library was great (more like amazing) and Horizon Canopy was ok. Sadly most of the mulligans were because the hands would've lost to a single Wasteland. I'd have kept all but one if the Savannahs were basic Plains. There were 2-3 situations I wished Canopy was Wasteland and in one of those situations I'd have won almost on the spot with Wasteland.
If I had to make a decision now I'd stay with monoW at least against Goblins however as this was a really small sample size (and even without boarding) I'll keep testing.

I think your flagstones and canopy are holding you back in some regard. I'd recommend testing out something like -1 flagstones, -1 canopy, +2 white fetch. With your crucibles you will randomly find yourself in a position to abuse the fetches, as well as providing yourself with an additional green sources, and safe early plays (can't be wasted/ported until you've already used them).

For the other thing, check your inbox.

Silverdragon
07-23-2007, 10:23 PM
So after extensive testing I've come to the conclusion that I don't like the green splash at all. Even with various fetchland configurations the manabase was not stable enough and looking back Sylvan Library was rarely better than Explosives. I still think Sylvan Library is strong and deserves to be played more than it currently is but not in this deck. At least not in its current configuration.
Another thing I found out while testing post board against Goblins is that I really wanted more lands especially Wastelands to shut off annoying Ports and colorscrew my opponent. With Suppression Fields in the board this seems counterintuitive but you can't rely on drawing a 4-of in this deck so every bit of help is good especially when your game 1 is rough and you have 8 slots to fill anyway (assuming you board out all your Trinispheres and Chalices).
During play I noticed that the matchup often boils down to winning the war over the manabase. I had one game where the first play Goblins made was turn 3 Goblin Warchief with Stax playing turn 3 Magus. Goblins won that game. A lot of games Goblins had the first turn Lackey against the land, go of Stax but Stax won regardless.

An old list I played had 2 Wastelands in the board and I keep coming back to that list whenever I test against Goblins. What are your thoughts on this? Do you have similar experiences or different ones?

Fred Bear
07-24-2007, 07:40 AM
In my experience, the Goblins match-up comes down to Ghostly Prison. If you get it down turn 2 or even 3 depending on how 'broken' their opening is in Game 1, it slows down their game plan enough that you should be able to find a win condition or a lock or at least an Armageddon to slow them further before they can kill you and, if you stabilize, it is very difficult to lose. You're job basically becomes keeping them off 4 mana to attack with both a Lackey and a Piledriver early (which is the only real spot that I've found Wasteland helpful). I've not found another card in the deck that works so efficiently on it's own to slow them down. (Granted a turn 2 Magus is pretty sweet here also, but Magus is slow-to-bad depending on how many Goblins and Lands are in play, i.e. 3 random Gobbos + Piledriver + 4 land = Magus not so hot).

While I agree that Port is annoying, if the Goblins player is Porting you, they have either (a) have established a dominant board position and will win within the next 2 turns if you don't find a specific card (typically Prison or Magus) or (b) have misidentified the match-up and think that 'stalling' against a prison deck is a good idea. In situation A, you are probably going to lose anyhow. If it is early enough to matter that they are keeping you off lands and they are still attacking effectively, you are in bad shape especially if you kept a hand without Prison or Magus. In situation B, you have a much better chance to win. If they opened with Vial/Fanatic/nothing, and have chosen to Port you turn 2 over playing pretty much anything in their hand, you are in the driver's seat (but I probably don't need to mention that). 2-mana lands and Diamonds make Port either a difficult decision (do they keep you off the boost or the color) or a waste of time (Port the Tomb just to see the 3rd land drop plus Prison/Crucible/Trinisphere or another 2-mana land and Magus).

That's been my experience with it anyhow.

As for the splashes, I have been testing several. And what I've found probably won't surprise most, but it did me. Stax is extremely customizable to the meta. I have found lists that aggro cannot beat pre-board that will morph into a combo-killing machine post-sideboard or vice-versa. I have the most trouble tuning to beat Control and Aggro-Control because I'm not finding a lot of overlap in the card pools (i.e. Defense Grid good vs Control - Bad vs everything Aggro and Combo not named Solidarity). I've enjoyed the Green Splash (I call it Library Stax because I'm a tool) because it provides a little selection to give you a better 'random' game 1 (unknown opponent). It gives you an opportunity to find the needed bullet for a match-up. The list I play has fetches and Flagstones, although I think Eternal Dragon (and probably a Temple Garden or two) might be better than Flagstones for the more consistent shuffle effect. I've paired the Library with Uba Mask (you'd be surprised how many cards it hoses in the current meta) and Words of Worship (hope I didn't spoil any secret tech) which is not a kill like Words of War, but watching random aggro decks try to overcome 10-20 life a turn provides quite a clock (a calendar really) to establish board control. (Note - I haven't tested enough to know if the life gain is a neat trick or actually useful. I know it quite simply nullifies a lot of aggro decks.)

Just my thoughts,

Fred Bear...

honz
08-04-2007, 03:57 PM
I have been playing around, and tweaking a mono-white 'geddon stax list for a couple weeks now, and i have some thoughts i decided to share.

The SB duskrider peragrine has been nothing short of terrible for me. The protection from black is almost worthless, except for chump blocking. What black deck doesn't run 4x diabolic edict? Not to mention smallpox, innocent blood, pox, chainer's edict, EE, deed and damnation. That is assuming you even play the thing before it gets hymned out of your hand. Is there any other reason to even run this card, because it has never helped me?

Powder keg has been another week link. I have long since replaced it with faith's fetters. This card is amazing, it is almost never dead. I have considered running 4 (i only run 3 atm), or possibly having 1 in the SB. However, i discovered (from D&T) a card called Mangara of Corondor. The only set-back is the WW cc; however, i think you can easily find WW in a timely manor. Both have their pros and cons, but i plan on testing them. Mangara does not have great synergy with magus, but you won't have it in play longer than a turn. However, that leads me to my next issue:

4 Magus has not been working out for me. I have since gone to 3 magus, 2 windborn muse. This was fueled by the fact that double ghostly prison is one of the strongest plays this deck can make. Double magus, on the other hand, is almost a trainwreck (against non-aggro); 4 mana for 4 damage is pretty weak. A pair of tabernacles in the board help me against aggro, but my board is constantly changing...

Glowriders have been weak, but not terrible against combo. Since you only really run 3-5 creatures, wouldn't a straight sphere of resistance be better? Sphere will come down turn 1 alot more often than a glowrider. Also, would you bring in glowrider / sphere in against thresh? It seems a fair price to pay to slow all their draws down, as well as forcing them to have open mana for daze / FoW. It seems the thresh MU comes down to resolving a trini, or a chalice at 1; preferably a trini.

It seems nearly impossible to beat black disruption decks. Your only possible chance, seems to be a chalice for 2. An early crucible might save you some time, but dont get your hopes up. This is just an observation, i don't have any insight to give...

Most of my matches ussually turn into resolving and armageddon (i run 5), and getting into a battle of topdecks, which i ussually win. However, the reliance on sheer topdecking has been the greatest weakness for the deck. But, it seems, the options are limited. Sylvan library needs a second color, and i feel like im wasting it without playing uba mask or a words. Sensei's top clashes with your favorite play (turn 1 chalice at 1). Bottled cloister is kinda the only thing left. Cloister helps against discard, and draws you an extra card; i still feel bad playing this without playing ensnaring bridge...

Has anyone come to a conclusion about this? Is cloister worth it, or is reliance on topdecking a better option?

Thanks for reading, i know it was alot...

Bane of the Living
08-04-2007, 04:54 PM
I have been playing around, and tweaking a mono-white 'geddon stax list for a couple weeks now, and i have some thoughts i decided to share.

The SB duskrider peragrine has been nothing short of terrible for me. The protection from black is almost worthless, except for chump blocking. What black deck doesn't run 4x diabolic edict? Not to mention smallpox, innocent blood, pox, chainer's edict, EE, deed and damnation. That is assuming you even play the thing before it gets hymned out of your hand. Is there any other reason to even run this card, because it has never helped me?

Powder keg has been another week link. I have long since replaced it with faith's fetters. This card is amazing, it is almost never dead. I have considered running 4 (i only run 3 atm), or possibly having 1 in the SB. However, i discovered (from D&T) a card called Mangara of Corondor. The only set-back is the WW cc; however, i think you can easily find WW in a timely manor. Both have their pros and cons, but i plan on testing them. Mangara does not have great synergy with magus, but you won't have it in play longer than a turn. However, that leads me to my next issue:

4 Magus has not been working out for me. I have since gone to 3 magus, 2 windborn muse. This was fueled by the fact that double ghostly prison is one of the strongest plays this deck can make. Double magus, on the other hand, is almost a trainwreck (against non-aggro); 4 mana for 4 damage is pretty weak. A pair of tabernacles in the board help me against aggro, but my board is constantly changing...

Glowriders have been weak, but not terrible against combo. Since you only really run 3-5 creatures, wouldn't a straight sphere of resistance be better? Sphere will come down turn 1 alot more often than a glowrider. Also, would you bring in glowrider / sphere in against thresh? It seems a fair price to pay to slow all their draws down, as well as forcing them to have open mana for daze / FoW. It seems the thresh MU comes down to resolving a trini, or a chalice at 1; preferably a trini.

It seems nearly impossible to beat black disruption decks. Your only possible chance, seems to be a chalice for 2. An early crucible might save you some time, but dont get your hopes up. This is just an observation, i don't have any insight to give...

Most of my matches ussually turn into resolving and armageddon (i run 5), and getting into a battle of topdecks, which i ussually win. However, the reliance on sheer topdecking has been the greatest weakness for the deck. But, it seems, the options are limited. Sylvan library needs a second color, and i feel like im wasting it without playing uba mask or a words. Sensei's top clashes with your favorite play (turn 1 chalice at 1). Bottled cloister is kinda the only thing left. Cloister helps against discard, and draws you an extra card; i still feel bad playing this without playing ensnaring bridge...

Has anyone come to a conclusion about this? Is cloister worth it, or is reliance on topdecking a better option?

Thanks for reading, i know it was alot...

Ok..

@Duskrider
You cant just look at him and go "oh pro black!" and expect him to win you a game. Access your metagame first. Maybe you just ripped a list without reading but he's discussed as a solution against mostly Red Death and Deadguy Ale. Niether of those decks play the aforementioned cards aside from Hymn. Regardless he's good against him since you can Suspend him turn 1-2 very easily. If your problem is Edicts try to have Mishras Factories ready to activate. If your playing against Damnations then make them trade one for one or just kill them with Factories. EE should not be hitting Peregrine. Who's paying 5 for sunburst!!?? Pox is a bad matchup anyways.

Deed is unfortunate and all you can really do against it is not cry like a little girl.

Mangara belongs in a deck tailored for him such as D&T not Stax. He's not very permanant and we like those. Powder Keg does indeed suck. Most of us have replaced that slot with EE. You need an answer to 0-1 casting cost stuff.

Let me know how your continued testing goes with Fetters. Im curious to know. I just dont see it as a replacement for the EE slot. It doesnt fit the curve and ours is way to important to ignore.

Im sorry your unhappy with 4 Magus, I find him MVP. It sucks to draw two but Id rather have the chance of drawing one than none right?

If you'll notice I run Sphere of Resistance and Glowrider together. I find them better paired than to max out on either number. Your correct in playing them against thresh since they hate those cards. Side out Ghostly Prisons.

Monoblack Attrition is our worst matchup by far. If your seeing alot of these decks in your meta right now Id honestly swap decks for a little bit.

I ran Cloister in my board for quite some time but you need to watch out not to get it blown up. I played it with Ensnaring Bridge as well. The combo was amazing and both halfs worked great alone. The only issue I had with it was Bridge would clash with Ghostly Prison by trying to take the same role and not stacking well. Also, Empty the Warrens shits on Ensnaring Bridge..

Whit3 Ghost
08-04-2007, 05:07 PM
Deed is unfortunate and all you can really do against it is not cry like a little girl.
Pithing Needle.

Also, I found Bridge to be preferable because decks like Faerie Stompy and the new Goyf Control/Agro/Agro Control lists can just pay for Prison and be on their merry way.

You also run EE for ETW, so I doubt it would be that much of a problem.

honz
08-04-2007, 08:35 PM
Admittedly, i just found a SB i liked, and ran with it. I can't say i have ever played against red death, and confidant is very beatable; with such a low curve, chalice wins games. I dont think 3-4 slots should be dedicated to 2 underplayed decks, but i guess its a meta call.


Faerie Stompy and the new Goyf Control/Agro/Agro Control lists can just pay for Prison and be on their merry way.

This is exactly why i run 3 faith's fetters, and 6 ghostly prisons. double prison is hard for any deck to face, especially when 3spheres, armageddons, wastes, tabernacle, and stax are all abundant. I used to play RG stax, with cloister (and words)-bridge lock. I changed because bridge locks are so fragile. If you are playing against goyf, they most likely have 4x krosan grips in the board, plus tons of draw, and counter magic; ussually a few bounce spells for good measure. Keeping a bridge lock is nearly impossible, and as soon as bridge goes, you loose. Also, this deck tends to build up cards in hand from armageddons slowing you down. Also, cards like extra tabernacles, and geddons, and moxes build up in your hand. This deck should be concentrated on abusing armageddon, and cloister-bridge doesn't do that.

Faith's fetters is my pithing needle. The only real problem is the majority of the deck is 4cc. This can be hard if your forced to drop a 'geddon before you have crucible out. What are you hitting with EE in the 0-1 range? The only real problems i have had were mongoose, sensei's top, random combo pieces, and the rare artifact lands. The few games i have had against ETW have been easy. Between chalice, ghostly prison, tabernacles, muse, trini...etc it shouldn't be an issue.

emidln
08-04-2007, 08:55 PM
Admittedly, i just found a SB i liked, and ran with it. I can't say i have ever played against red death, and confidant is very beatable; with such a low curve, chalice wins games. I dont think 3-4 slots should be dedicated to 2 underplayed decks, but i guess its a meta call.

This is exactly why i run 3 faith's fetters, and 6 ghostly prisons. double prison is hard for any deck to face, especially when 3spheres, armageddons, wastes, tabernacle, and stax are all abundant. I used to play RG stax, with cloister (and words)-bridge lock. I changed because bridge locks are so fragile. If you are playing against goyf, they most likely have 4x krosan grips in the board, plus tons of draw, and counter magic; ussually a few bounce spells for good measure. Keeping a bridge lock is nearly impossible, and as soon as bridge goes, you loose. Also, this deck tends to build up cards in hand from armageddons slowing you down. Also, cards like extra tabernacles, and geddons, and moxes build up in your hand. This deck should be concentrated on abusing armageddon, and cloister-bridge doesn't do that.


Cloister-bridge is fucking terrible. Cloister is the worst possible card to pair with bridge. Tarpan is at least 50,000 times better than Cloister since it will never cause you get mind twisted due to removal. Quote me on that all day long if you want.

How are 3 fetters and 6 prisons (which don't actually stop attacking w/o resolving a geddon through their "tons of draw, and counter magic", just tax it) any better than 4 bridges, 4 welders, 4crucible/4factory, and 4 razorcore when backed up by the same Chalices, Trinispheres, Smokestacks, Tabernacles (if you really want, but this is a bad card and we all cut it after Gencon last year), and Boil (in place of Armageddon)?


Faith's fetters is my pithing needle. The only real problem is the majority of the deck is 4cc. This can be hard if your forced to drop a 'geddon before you have crucible out. What are you hitting with EE in the 0-1 range? The only real problems i have had were mongoose, sensei's top, random combo pieces, and the rare artifact lands. The few games i have had against ETW have been easy. Between chalice, ghostly prison, tabernacles, muse, trini...etc it shouldn't be an issue.

Fetters will never do any good against Pernicious Deed. That card is the single biggest wrecking ball you can face due to its common occurrence and devastating effect. EE in the 0-1 range hits your own chalices, etw tokens, mongoose, and random fast mana. If you'd read EE you'd know it doesn't kill artifact lands. Anyway, we tested this card in other stax lists and found it to be about as good as a Terror since it'd never hit more than 1 card that wasn't a token/your own chalices.

Additionally, Pithing Needle can severely screw most Thresh builds since you look to Chalice @ 2/3 game 2 anyway. You needle EE to protect your chalices, or as your hand determines (if it's LD/taxing heavy), needle fetches on the play. Given that the deck plays 7-10 fetches on a manabase of only 17 lands, you can hit them fast and hard for only 1.

Finally, if your spells cost 4 mana, you are constantly casting 'geddon without Crucible, and even with Crucible spells are piling up in your hand, doesn't this lead you to question 'geddon effects? Granted this causes a dramatically different gameplan, but if these are recurring observations then it could be something to consider. Either that, or start playing LFTL.

Mullen
08-07-2007, 05:04 AM
Could anyone give an elaborate explanation as to a variety of match-ups..
What are the easy decks to beat vs the hard and 50/50 decks to beat.. what are good sideboard in and outs for all?

The decks I refer to are :
Threshold U/G/W - U/G/R
Belcher
Landstill
Survival varients
CAL
Vial Goblins Varients
5/3
Blue Skies
Truffle Shuffle
Reanimator with Ghoul
43 Land
Aluren
CEPHALID BREAKFAST Varients (Karmic Guide, Kiki Jiki)
Iggy Pop
Salvagers Game
Burning Lands
Loam Control
T.E.S.
HanniFish (U/W/B Fish)
Madness Varients
Fairie Stompy-
Stompy Varients
Fish Varients
Solidarity
Deadguy Ale
Train Wreck
Red Death
MIRROR MATCH???
In my build of Geddon Stax, i main deck four Suppression Fields Because sometimes (90% of the time) They feel like god if a turn 1 SF Resolves..
They are great vs most all combo decks ( SOLIDARITY HAS FETCHES TOO ) .

In my meta, i see tons of Ceph Breakfast, so turn one field is key (much like vs Threshold, 43 Land, U/G Madness, Landstill) I'm just curious as to why in the decklists i see, there are None. I may have missed something.

Gen Con is right around corner, i am thinking this deck might be a great suprise attack vs those decks. (I was taking Salvagers Game FTW.. but scared of all the main deck voids now.)

Thanks.

Mullen
08-07-2007, 04:19 PM
Also, how about Eater Of Days and RazorCore as alternate win conditions In SB tech?? I know it sounds funny but imagine this hand; Turn 1 trinisphere, Turn 2 Smokestax, Turn 3 Eater of Days.. Even if they kill EoD, they still deal with sacking 3 permanents and only being able to play stuff at 3 with Trinishphere out, and if they don't kill it, u Can sacrifice Smokestack to itself and start Beating Face.

And Razormane Masticore is good vs goblins and Red Death's Negator; pinging their Negator for 3 is hilarious.

ClearSkies
08-07-2007, 06:02 PM
Also, how about Eater Of Days and RazorCore as alternate win conditions In SB tech?? I know it sounds funny but imagine this hand; Turn 1 trinisphere, Turn 2 Smokestax, Turn 3 Eater of Days.. Even if they kill EoD, they still deal with sacking 3 permanents and only being able to play stuff at 3 with Trinishphere out, and if they don't kill it, u Can sacrifice Smokestack to itself and start Beating Face.

If you went turn 1 Trinisphere and turn 2 Smokestacks, why not finish the game with a Turn 3 Crucible of Worlds? You could have drawn that Crucible of Worlds instead of Eater of days. Chances are that your opponent can't do anything at this point, especially if you Turn 1 Trinisphere on the play.

Obviously, this is a really good hand, and you can't really expect to see this hand too often.

Bane of the Living
08-08-2007, 05:59 PM
Could anyone give an elaborate explanation as to a variety of match-ups..
What are the easy decks to beat vs the hard and 50/50 decks to beat.. what are good sideboard in and outs for all?

The decks I refer to are :
Threshold U/G/W - U/G/R
Belcher
Landstill
Survival varients
CAL
Vial Goblins Varients
5/3
Blue Skies
Truffle Shuffle
Reanimator with Ghoul
43 Land
Aluren
CEPHALID BREAKFAST Varients (Karmic Guide, Kiki Jiki)
Iggy Pop
Salvagers Game
Burning Lands
Loam Control
T.E.S.
HanniFish (U/W/B Fish)
Madness Varients
Fairie Stompy-
Stompy Varients
Fish Varients
Solidarity
Deadguy Ale
Train Wreck
Red Death
MIRROR MATCH???


Favorable Matchups:

Threshold U/G/W - U/G/R - Great matchup. The deck was designed do hate on thresh. If your playing in a meta where they run Engineered Explosives you should consider Pithing Needle to stop it from blowing up Chalice and all your 3 drops. Aside from that its easy.

5/3- No testing but Id imagine you have the edge since Magus blocks everything and crucible + factories make it impossible to connect. You run geddon not them so Id say your favored.

Blue Skies- No testing. Id assume its close to thresh.

CAL- I have no testing against CAL but I speculate they're doomed if you ramp stack to two.

T.E.S. - Id say this matchup is in your favor slightly but obviously depends who's on the play. Wasteland is big here so if your not running it you might see a drop in win percentage. Dont forget Ghostly Prison still nurfs goblins but dont weigh your hand just hoping they'll go for warrens kill.

HanniFish (U/W/B Fish)- This is a hard match to lose.

Fish Varients- Easy. The reason to play stax.

CEPHALID BREAKFAST Varients (Karmic Guide, Kiki Jiki) - Combo is usually a great matchup but this one functions a bit differently. It depends if your running Suppression Field or not.
Iggy Pop- This matchups depends what you open up with. Mulligan away the Magus and Prisons and try to focus on 3sphere's and Chalice. Id say this is 60-40 you.

Solidarity- 60-40 your favor. Ive never lost this but its possible if you draw shit while playing. Geddon is amazing against them. Everything else is counter bait.

50/50 Matchups:

Vial Goblins Varients - This actually depends a bit if they run Tin Street Hooligan. Otherwise Id say its 55-60% your favor. Dropping Magus can be game over and the matchup is greatly determined on whether or not you got a Ghostly Prison to connect.

Madness Varients - Madness can actually be tough altho its outdated insufficient thresh. Simply since they're curve isnt hit by Chalice anywhere near as bad. Look out for Arrogant Wurms. Roar you can hit with explosives.

Stompy Varients - Other stompy varients are about 50/50. You can power things out just as fast and they crumble to Smokestack.

MIRROR MATCH???- Ive never played this but Id imagine it depends who gets Crucible.

Belcher - This matchup is probably 50/50. It depends who plays. If you live to turn 3-4 you'll usually win.

Unfavorable Matchups:

Landstill - This is another 50/50 matchup. It really depends whether or not they run Pernicious Deed or other 3-4cc sweepers such as nev's disk. The games come down to who resolves a Crucible. If they run Wastelands they can be a problem since wasting your Ancient Tomb and dropping something like Standstill can steal the game from you. Chalice isnt very strong here and I actually recommend siding it out.

Survival varients - This is actually a bad matchup for us. Not as bad as black decks but close. Almost everything in their deck is a perm which is good news against stax. If they get Survival or Rofellos online your up shit creek. Squee is even a problem since they can null smokestack with him. This is where you want some Suppression Fields. Aether Vial makes things so much worse so if they run it prepare to lose.

Truffle Shuffle - This doesnt seem like a very good matchup since they run Hymn + Witness and Deed. I dont have any personal experience against it tho.
Reanimator with Ghoul - Ghostly Prison has nothing on a 26/26 trampler. Id say this is a bad matchup but its another one I havent tested. Jotun Grunt out of the board must help out.

Salvagers Game - This is surprisingly a bad matchup. Chalice for one hurts them more than anything you have but they can still win unless Chalice is at zero. I find it a mistake to cast it @0 first however. They play Deed and have Living Wish to get Woodrippers and Gorilla Shaman. Chalice at 1 will protect you from their discard which is what makes the matchup hard. Trinisphere shines but again isnt an auto win. Id say this matchup is 40-60 their favor. If they run Deed 30-70ish.

Loam Control- Loam decks are terrible for you. Get Chalice@2 and hope they cant Krosan Grip ir or drop Deed.

Fairie Stompy- This can be worse than the other varients because of flying. You cant block flyers with Magus or Factory. Id say this is their favor.

43 Land - Any matchup against Loam is usually bad but you might catch them with an Armageddon. It depends how many Wasteland/Port they find before you Geddon. If you dont have Trinisphere out you wont do much since Loam will get them right back in the game. magus is bad here.

Deadguy Ale- Bad matchup, worse than Red Death because they have Vindicate.

Train Wreck - Same as Truffle but at least they dont have Deed.

Red Death - Not as bad as Deadguy since Chalice@one hurts them tons. First turn Negs can mean the end of you so sb Jotun Grunts and Peregrine Drakes.

__________________________________________________-

Aluren - I havent tested this.

Burning Lands- I have no idea what this is.

honz
08-08-2007, 08:02 PM
I think belcher is better than 50/50, especially if you run supression field. You laugh in the face of ETW, and if you manage to drop chalice / trini before they go off, you will probly win.

5/3 is harder than you might think. If they get a good draw, and go turn 2 beater, turn 3 equipment, you can be in trouble. Fetters really helps here. You need 2 creature haters on the board to really stop them, since they can gladly pay 2 mana for 6+ damage. However, 5/3 almost never gets a decent draw...

I have played against other stax lists, and almost all come down to who resolves crucible. Beware of gettting waste locked, and trying to topdeck plains. If against other geddon stax, try to hold a few lands back...

Aluren (depending on the build) is pretty easy. Their mana base is so over-extended, and fragile that you can easily disrupt it. Also, if you realize what they are palying, chalice at 2 will win. You should drop geddon as soon as possible, even if you have no crucible / flagstones / moxes in play; you will outdraw them almost every time.

I just played a couple games against 43land, and that is a terrible MU. I won a few from having crucible, trini, and waste on the board, then dropping a geddon. I then just waste locked him while i beat with muse. Your only chance is turn 1 (on play) chalice for 1, turn 2 chalice for 2.

What is burning lands?

Bane of the Living
08-08-2007, 08:31 PM
I think belcher is better than 50/50, especially if you run supression field. You laugh in the face of ETW, and if you manage to drop chalice / trini before they go off, you will probly win.

5/3 is harder than you might think. If they get a good draw, and go turn 2 beater, turn 3 equipment, you can be in trouble. Fetters really helps here. You need 2 creature haters on the board to really stop them, since they can gladly pay 2 mana for 6+ damage. However, 5/3 almost never gets a decent draw...

I have played against other stax lists, and almost all come down to who resolves crucible. Beware of gettting waste locked, and trying to topdeck plains. If against other geddon stax, try to hold a few lands back...

Aluren (depending on the build) is pretty easy. Their mana base is so over-extended, and fragile that you can easily disrupt it. Also, if you realize what they are palying, chalice at 2 will win. You should drop geddon as soon as possible, even if you have no crucible / flagstones / moxes in play; you will outdraw them almost every time.

I just played a couple games against 43land, and that is a terrible MU. I won a few from having crucible, trini, and waste on the board, then dropping a geddon. I then just waste locked him while i beat with muse. Your only chance is turn 1 (on play) chalice for 1, turn 2 chalice for 2.

What is burning lands?

Belcher is definitely not better than 50/50. Infact Id say its close to unfavorable. I played close to 25 pre and 25 post board against an updated list and your pretty much at loss if they have a turn one belcher win. Hell if they can simply cast the belcher you'll usually lose since they can topdeck 3 mana before you can do anything harmfull.

Going against EtW is easy but keeping a hand with Magus or Prison can be obsolete when they open with Belcher kill or Wish for Tendrils.

Suppression Field does nothing against Belcher at all. It messes with Tinder Wall and Belcher, it has nothing on the goblin plan. Turn one Trinisphere is not game over since they can Shattering Spree you then go off well before you have anything close to lethal damage.

5/3 I havent played much and the games I did I won by blocking with Magus and chumping with Factory/Crucible till Geddon came online. It seems like you can lose easily to a guy + equip but I havent come across it in my limited playtesting.

Aluren doesnt seem as easy as you make it sound. They're relatively unscathed against Chalice@1. I have no idea what dropping Chalice@2 would do to them..?

Are you still casting the Cavern Harpy with Aluren out? Does Trinisphere effect Aluren and how?

Machinus
08-08-2007, 08:45 PM
I haven't been maindecking Trinisphere, which actually makes Tendrils a big problem since the powerful cards there cost two and zero. Burning Wish -> Shattering Spree doesn't help that plan any. TES has little problem with just Chalice 0/1 and LD.

There are definitely four in the deck somewhere, but I think it's really hard to say since you need to have a good handle on the metagame before you can start talking about playing Control correclty.

Whit3 Ghost
08-08-2007, 09:24 PM
5/3 I havent played much and the games I did I won by blocking with Magus and chumping with Factory/Crucible till Geddon came online. It seems like you can lose easily to a guy + equip but I havent come across it in my limited playtesting.

The good versions should be red and running Razorcore, which beats the hell out of chumping with Magus. They run Welder out of the board, which can wreck you if any of your artifacts hit the ground. Also, graveyard hate cuts off recurring factories, and you don't have Bridge to lock the board down.

They also have the option of quaking you out after you've pinged yourself with Tombs.

Train Wreck runs Deed AND Crime//Punishment and basics.

With Breakfast's new found popularity, there is another reason that Pithing Needle should be somewhere in your 75 cards.

43 Land Rolls over and dies to Chalice @ 2.

After you described your matchups, is there any reason to play this deck over AT1?

Bane of the Living
08-08-2007, 10:03 PM
After you described your matchups, is there any reason to play this deck over AT1?

AT1 in my experience has issues with aggro decks. It lowers its life a bit more since it also plays Barbarian Rings, it has no option for life gain such as Exalted.

I cant seem to win the game in a timely fashion with AT1 either. Barbarian Ring recrusion is slow and graveyard dependant.

All and all Id have to say the biggest reason I play white stax over red is Armageddon. I cant get AT1 to mimic that effect or Magus.

What matchups do you find better if playing AT1 than geddon stax?

Does it improve the Loam/Crucible, Deed, or combo matchups at all?

Whit3 Ghost
08-08-2007, 10:29 PM
AT1 in my experience has issues with aggro decks. It lowers its life a bit more since it also plays Barbarian Rings, it has no option for life gain such as Exalted.

I cant seem to win the game in a timely fashion with AT1 either. Barbarian Ring recrusion is slow and graveyard dependant.

All and all Id have to say the biggest reason I play white stax over red is Armageddon. I cant get AT1 to mimic that effect or Magus.

What matchups do you find better if playing AT1 than geddon stax?

Does it improve the Loam/Crucible, Deed, or combo matchups at all?
I'm throwing out arguments when they come to me, it's not in order.


Well, Loam dies to Bridge, as they need to attack with manlands. You can also Chalice at 2 to shut off Loam, which is a massive setback for them. We have Goblin Welder to get back stuff killed by Deed and we have Pithing Needle to prevent Deed from being an issue.

Ensnaring Bridge is amazing against Agro, as is the fact that we can actually remove threats. We have a draw engine, so we can establish the lock at a faster rate then Geddon Stax can.

Rquake > ETW.

Boil is almost always better then Geddon against almost any deck that isn't MWC/Rifter, which sees virtually no play.

You're playing an old list then if you're having clock issues, Words of War/Wilding are asolutely nuts here (It needs a new name, because some number of AEther Flash is most likely being cut to accomodate Words.)

Who is running Exalted now?

Mullen
08-09-2007, 02:49 PM
Hmm, I did some playtesting yesterday, 10 games a match up to be exact..

Vs
Salvagers Game - 10-4 (2-0 pre-board) a problem is, chalice @ 0 is pointless game 2-3 since they can just side out the LED's and Salvagers and go straight DARKSTEEL side in, that's a BIG clock. I would recommend Chalice@1
asap game's 2-3.. Depending on if u see them siding more than 3 cards. It stops their rituals (which is their MUST HAVE if ur wastelocking them), duress, star(sphere), and spellbomb. And trinishpere is always amazing.

Vs
Cephlid Breakfast - 7-3 (2-1 Preboard). This was suprisingly easy matchup..
A turn one ANY CARD IN DECK usually does the trick.. chalice for 1 stops cantrips, vial, shuko. Suppression field is great also. I wouldn't worry too much about this deck, I also run Needles main deck x 3.. giving me kinda an advantage vs combo decks.

Vs
Burning Tog - 5-5 (1-2 preboard). This was a hard matchup.. but extremly EXTREMLY EASY if i get a turn 1-2 Chalice @ 2. This card alone almost ensures u win the game.. it stops almost 60% of their deck (including burning wish) and allows them to only win with Atog pretty much; However Suppression Field and Needle LAUGH at Psychatog. Bad matchs were when they have GOD HANDS and go, "Force Force Force, Daze, Daze, Circular Logic Psychatog.. I win" But like I said DONT CHALICE @1 OR YOU LOSE! only one spell in the deck is 1 - Brainstorm.

Vs
Threshold U/G/W- 5-2 (Ran outa time). I was suprised i did this well .. This match is completely in your favor if you go first. and they don't drop turn one Mongoose.. (Although they prolly won't) Chalice @ 1 = They lose almost no matter what.Shuts down 70% of their deck. Leaves you with wastelock easily And meddling mage doesn't hurt much unless they call stax, but you just Geddon, Magus and you win. A couple of games i Stabalized below 5 life (once at 1 life) Pithing needle on opening play force Windswept Heath is KEY, and suppression Field turn one or 2 Will hurt quite a bit on all their Fetch lands. After board you get Jotun Grunt which is AMAZING! (assuming they don't counterspell it lol), most of the time you're playing around force of wills.. just don't be too hasty or you will lose easily.

Today i'm going to go play test some more, hopefully this information can help someone. Goodluck.

emidln
08-09-2007, 08:36 PM
Are you still casting the Cavern Harpy with Aluren out? Does Trinisphere effect Aluren and how?

Trinisphere makes anything that costs less than 3 mana to play, cost 3 mana to play. There are no exceptions. This means that Cavern Harpy would cost 1UB to play under a 3sphere with Aluren into play. Aluren cannot combo off with Trinisphere in play.

On the subject of AT1/Sun Tower, that's really not for this thread. PM sent to White_Ghost and Bane of the Living.

ClearSkies
08-10-2007, 09:00 AM
Trinisphere makes anything that costs less than 3 mana to play, cost 3 mana to play. There are no exceptions. This means that Cavern Harpy would cost 1UB to play under a 3sphere with Aluren into play. Aluren cannot combo off with Trinisphere in play.



Not true. It would cost 3 colorless mana to play Cavern Harpy through Aluren.
Just like it would cost 3 more colorless mana after activating an Isochron Sceptor for 2 mana.

furiax
08-10-2007, 09:28 AM
hi all , this is my first post on the source ( and not the last one )

i'm testing too stax with white , here is my list :


// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [R] Savannah
2 [TE] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
1 [R] Plateau
1 [P2] Plains (1)
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle

// Spells
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
3 [LG] Sylvan Library
2 [CHK] Uba Mask
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [US] Smokestack
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [U] Armageddon
2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
2 [ON] Words of War

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [UL] Goblin Welder
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [ON] Words of Worship
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid


i do not play main deck chalice of the void, because of rooms it takes, but i will retry with them maindeck

the mana base is quite nice but still need some works i think .

the big point of my build is that i don't know how to equilibrate things like uba library and words of war, i think i arrived to something good, but if someone got an advice

sideboard may look likes crapy and it is :p, because i'm testing words of wisdom , welder in a build where there aren't a lot of red mana , testing krosan grip and grid ( solidarity and blue deck )

Bane of the Living
08-13-2007, 06:34 PM
Legacy Top 8 Decks from: Karlsruhe 30.06.2007

4. Oliver Salten (4-1-0)
"Stirb langsam"
Maindeck (61 cards): Sideboard: (15 cards)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere
2 Armageddon
3 Exalted Angel
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Ravages of War
3 Suppression Field


Lands (26):
3 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
2 Horizon Canopy
7 Plains
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Wasteland

3 Disenchant
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Pithing Needle
2 Pulse of the Fields
3 Rule of Law
1 Trinisphere

Thought this was interesting. He shaves down to three copies of some cards to fit some Angels and he's got the Suppression Fields in there. Horizon Canopy looks like it worked out for him as well. Gods Eye looks bad but must be better than Factory if playing with Suppression Field I guess.

Nihil Credo
08-13-2007, 08:37 PM
As much as I may like the inclusion of Angel, that lists shows the sign of last-minute tweaking. I can't think of a single reason to play 3 Tombs, and 61 cards in a deck with zero velocity is just lazy.

Aggro_zombies
08-22-2007, 11:20 PM
Quick question: I've seen several green splashes in this deck, but has anyone considered splashing blue for Academy Ruins? That card is fucking ridiculous in this deck...at least it was in mono-blue Stax.

Sanguine Voyeur
08-22-2007, 11:25 PM
Quick question: I've seen several green splashes in this deck, but has anyone considered splashing blue for Academy Ruins? That card is fucking ridiculous in this deck...at least it was in mono-blue Stax.Is Academy Ruins better then the card selection from Sylvan Library and win conditions from Words?

That actually is quite rude if you interpret it sarcastically, it isn't.

Aggro_zombies
08-22-2007, 11:35 PM
Is Academy Ruins better then the card selection from Sylvan Library and win conditions from Words?

That actually is quite rude if you interpret it sarcastically, it isn't.
Depends on the matchup. I'd say that it would be better in many ways than Library because it gives the deck a heavy degree of inevitability and shores up some problematic matches (Landstill comes to mind here, since you don't really need to worry about them popping your Smokestack). Plus, you're in blue, so you can run Thirst for Knowledge at least, possibly Meditate (win-more, IMO) and Chronatog Totem for extra wins (funny as hell when you win with this in blue Stax). As for Words...well, I dunno about that. How often has overrunning the board with bears helped you win more quickly? Wouldn't Pegasus Whatchamacallit (the :2::w: one that makes Pegasus tokens for :1::w:) be better since it's in your colors and you don't have much else to do in the late game anyway? Course, Words just takes colorless, so I guess that's a valid point there.

Phaleg
09-09-2007, 01:04 AM
My meta is a bit strange, my best friend builds some crazy decks and the tournament scene in my hometown (cow country) is anything but stable, but in mono white form the deck seems to be consistent and made for some broken first turns in testing. I agree with Bane of the Living, the deck destroys Threshold. It also seems very good against UBW Fish and (my general meta) random aggro.

I don’t know if I’d add another color to the deck, it seems too risky as I often want to Armageddon quickly. I have not given up on the idea, but am at a loss as to what color should be added and for what purpose.

I’ve been thinking about how the deck wins. The two main (creature) wins being discussed seem to be Exalted Angel and Duskrider Peregrine. I tried both and felt that the resources were ill spent. Instead I opted to try winning with just Mishra’s Factories and Magus of the Tabernacle. Eh… yeah, took a while, not very flashy, but it kills.

You know as an afterthought I think if I were to add a color it would be red. Been reading the posts and Goblin Welder seems hotter then two Kookaburras in a casserole dish.

Silverdragon
09-15-2007, 12:54 PM
Newsflash! Armageddon Stax took first and second place in a 22 person tournament. Report coming soon.
My friend went 5-0 to place first and I went 4-1 with my only loss of the day being the mirrormatch in round 4.
Metagame consisted of at least 1 Landstill, 3 Survival, 2 UGw Thresh, 1 Baseruption, 1 Ichorid, 1 Enchantress, 1 43-Land (although I think he played a bit less lands), 1 Goblins and some stuff I can't remember. I think at least 2 more decks with Counterbalance were there.

Bane of the Living
09-15-2007, 01:01 PM
Newsflash! Armageddon Stax took first and second place in a 22 person tournament. Report coming soon.
My friend went 5-0 to place first and I went 4-1 with my only loss of the day being the mirrormatch in round 4.
Metagame consisted of at least 1 Landstill, 3 Survival, 2 UGw Thresh, 1 Baseruption, 1 Ichorid, 1 Enchantress, 1 43-Land (although I think he played a bit less lands), 1 Goblins and some stuff I can't remember. I think at least 2 more decks with Counterbalance were there.

Congrats to both of you. I was weary of playing stax lately but as long as your handed good matchups it all turns out great. Whats your current list look like??

Can I just say btw. Im so fearfull of Gaddock Teeg.... This deck might suffer to its very end if he gets popular.

As for Lorwyn playables I really like Oblivion Ring.

Silverdragon
09-15-2007, 01:32 PM
Very very short version:
Rd1 UWR TrinketAngels win 2-0
Rd2 Rifter win 2-0
Rd3 Enchantress win 2-0
Rd4 Mirror lose 1-2 (killed by Duskrider Peregrine)
Rd5 GBw Survival win 2-1

List
4 Smokestack
4 Armageddon
4 Crucible
4 Chalice
4 Trini
4 Prison
4 Magus
4 Mox
2 Exalted Angel
4 Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones
8 Plains
3 Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Tabernacle
sb
4 Defense Grid
4 Suppression Field
2 Wasteland
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Silent Arbiter
1 Exalted Angel

MD was perfect but Tabernacle is not really needed. SB I'll cut EE, Arbiters and Angel for Peregrines and Kegs.

Gaddock is scary but basically he's just a Mage on Smokestack and Geddon. You almost don't care about Chalice after he hits. EE might have to be replaced with Kegs so you can remove him.
Maybe the deck needs to change its gameplan a bit going more into the Eternal Garden or 5/3 direction.
Oblivion Ring looks like it could be usable but I feel like it's just a cheaper Faith Fetters.

Nihil Credo
09-15-2007, 01:47 PM
I like that list a lot, it's very much like mine (maindeck Angels, 2 Wastes, 3 Factories). Did you like having the full Smokestack playset? I prefer to run 3 almost everywhere... it's not really an essential card, especially with the Prison/Magus+Geddon lock also available.

Bane of the Living
09-15-2007, 02:33 PM
Gaddock is scary but basically he's just a Mage on Smokestack and Geddon. You almost don't care about Chalice after he hits. EE might have to be replaced with Kegs so you can remove him.
Maybe the deck needs to change its gameplan a bit going more into the Eternal Garden or 5/3 direction.
Oblivion Ring looks like it could be usable but I feel like it's just a cheaper Faith Fetters.

He's chanting Magus, Smokestack, Armageddon, Exalted, Chalice, Explosives, and Wrath of God.. What the hell is your plan if he hits play!?!! Id really really like to know..

Oblivion Ring: 3cc > Faiths Fetters: 4cc. Do you want Gaddock to pour sugar in your gas tank while he anal rapes your mother??

Nihil Credo
09-15-2007, 02:54 PM
He isn't really chanting Exalted Angel (morph), and Wrath has been dropped from the deck long ago. I agree with Silverdragon, just place Powder Kegs in the SB (it's debatable whether they were better than EE in the first place). His ability stops you from achieving a full lock via Geddon or Smokestack, but does not halt your prison game plan - you'll drop Chalice before he comes online, and Trini, Crucible, Ghostly all work just as well.

Bane of the Living
09-15-2007, 03:13 PM
So the supposed solution to Gaddock is to chill out and play some Ghostly Prisons?? I dont like relying on Powder Keg and taking three turns to kill him. Then what if they drop another or do unfair things with Karakas?

I really think Oblivion Ring would be excellent here. It deals with Meddling Mage naming Armageddon, deals with Aether Vial, and stops Tarmagoyfs.

Also, playing O Ring on Gaddock or Jitte would be awsome since they would perhaps play another and you could sacrifice the ring to Smokestack and trigger the legend rule.

Nihil Credo
09-15-2007, 03:46 PM
You have to remember that you live in the only area of the world where Death&Taxes is a major metagame presence.

The green splash will probably increase its power, but as much as I have enjoyed the deck I don't think it will become a serious concern anytime soon. Most people are more likely to face Gaddock when playing against Baseruption or other Fish-y decks, or from the sideboard of a multi-colour aggro deck.

Silverdragon
09-15-2007, 04:10 PM
RTFC :)
Gaddock only affects NON-creature spells. And I never said I didn't like Oblivion Ring, I just said it looks like Faith Fetters in what it does and I wasn't impressed by Fetters so I don't think it is that good. Of course I agree it is almost always better than Fetters but it's just like saying Treetop Village is better than Forgotten Watchtower in Landstill.

Silverdragon
09-17-2007, 03:01 PM
Sorry for doublepost but I think this one deserves it.

As promised here is my report of taking second at a monthly Legacy tourney in Speyer playing Stax. Not a lot of exciting stories just solid play by me and getting lucky that day.

The list I played was the same that my friend used at the german Legacy Championships to place 47th.

Maindeck

4 Smokestack
4 Armageddon
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Ghostly Prion
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Exalted Angel
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
8 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Sideboard

4 Defense Grid
4 Supression Field
2 Silent Arbiter
2 Wasteland
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Exalted Angel

Maindeck Angels were once again amazing, winning games out of nowhere. The only changes I'd make are in the board. Arbiter, Explosives and Angel no.3 are not really worth it and will be replaced by some amount of Kegs, Seals (of Cleansing) and Duskrider Peregrines.

Round 1 against Tobias with Trinket Angels (Uwr Counterbalance)
He's a regular player and I recognize his face but I can't remember what decks he played in the past. He puts me on Solidarity while we shuffle but remembers that I played Stax the last time and I tell him that I'm in fact playing Stax today.
I win the die roll with a 20 on a D20.

Game 1 I don't encounter much resistance. My first turn I resolve Crucible and he goes Plateau, pass. Second turn I play Smokestack and that is gg. He takes one more drawstep, discards a Swords to Plowshares and scoops.

I don't have an idea what he could be playing so I only board 2 Wastelands for 2 Plains hoping to get lucky again. While drawing his cards Tobias flips over a Force of Will but I still have no idea what he is playing.

Game 2 I open a hand with Chalice and 2 Magus. He starts with land, go and I play land, Mox, Chalice at 1. He thinks about countering but decides not to. His second turn he plays a second land and a Meddling Mage naming Crucible of Worlds. After the match he asks me what I'd name with Meddling Mage and I agree that Crucible is the right card to name with Mage most of the time. Anyway I attempt a Magus shortly after and he immediately says no throwing Force onto the table. After some thinking he pitches Trinket Mage. During his turn Tobias plays a second Meddling Mage, naming Smokestack this time. I play the second Magus and it resolves. A Trinisphere also comes down and because my opponent is stuck on 4 lands he lets one Mage die (the one naming Smokestack) to be able to play more spells. A Counterbalance and a Blood Knight enter play but I topdeck Smokestack and he can't counter it so it's over shortly after.

After the match he tells me that he has played Stasis in previous events and we both joke about how the Stax on Stasis match has to be the most boring thing ever.

After a food break it was time for

Round 2 against Jörg with Rifter
I win the die roll with a six on a D6. I also know the deck he is playing because I was able to scout a lot after round one.

Game 1 my luck continues as I rip a third Smokestack off the top after my first two get destroyed by Seal of Cleansing. Armageddon puts him into the hardlock and it's off to game two.

I board in Suppression Fields, Explosives and a Wasteland. Out go all the Tabernacle effects and the Angels.

Before we begin with game 2 Jörg makes a comment about never finding his boarded cards.
Game 2 begins with my opponent taking a mulligan and I can hardly keep myself calm as I have 2 Suppression Fields and the mana to cast them in my opening hand. After thinking hard of going down to five Jörg opts to play with his six card hand and starts with Secluded Steppe. I see that as a sign that he is manascrewed and spend my first turn wasting his land. Indeed he makes no second landdrop and is manascrewed for pretty much the rest of the game. We play some more turns but after I realize that my triple Suppression Fields (yes I topdecked one more) stop his Tormod's Crypt and his Seal for perhaps 20 or more turns I start paying seven to activate Factory and attack for two. He almost instantly scoops.

The second game was a bit anti-climatic but the whole matchup is rather one-sided. Rifter has to try to go aggro on you while you just wait for Armageddon and win.

Round 3 against Matthias with Enchantress
Both of us know what the other is playing and I don't like my chances. This time I lose the die roll.

Game 1 he has an explosive start with Exploration and Sylvan Library. During the following turns he plays Sterling Grove, sacrifices it to find Seal of Primordium for my Crucible and plays Replenish to get back the Grove and the Seal. I'm sure I'll lose this game. However I hit all my landdrops and an Angel enters play early. He can't find a solution in time and I beat him down in five turns.

From the sideboard I bring in Explosives, Wastelands and Exalted Angel. I take out Ghostly Prisons and the Tabernacle. I think my only chance here, especially on the draw is to play a threat and remove his answers to swing for the win.

Game 2 I get the nuts with Trinisphere, Smokestack and Crucible but he is on the play and gets to 3 lands before Smokestack starts to work. Lucky for me he can't topdeck another land before I ramp the Smokestack to two counters and his board is gone. He thinks for a short time and concedes. I show him the Flagstones I had in hand to make clear that I could've supported Smokestack long enough to beat him down with my Factory.

Whew! Worst matchup won. Now I'm sure I'll go home with a dualland in my pocket. I find my friend Joachim who is 3-0 too and sadly this means we have to play each other in round 4. We discuss what to do and agree to play it out and split the price.

Round 4 against Joachim with Angelstax
As predicted the only two 3-0 players get to play each other. I lose the die roll and prepare to lose the match. We played three very intense games and I'm sure I'll mix up some parts here so I apologize.

Game 1 looking at my notes this is the first game I have to mulligan. Frown. Joachim makes a comment that he should mulligan too but he keeps his hand. He begins the game with Ancient Tomb, go. I draw and play Mox Diamond, Mox Diamond, Ancient Tomb, Smokestack, Chalice at 0. Joachim looks stunned and I write BÄM in capital letters next to our lifetotal on my notepad. Another amazing turn on the other side happens as Joachim plays Flagstones of Trokair and Morph. I point out that the morph is countered due to Chalice and the Exalted Angel goes to the graveyard. I'm thinking maybe I can win this game. During my turn I play Flagstones of Trokair and ramp Smokestack up to one counter. Joachim decides to sac his Flagstones to the Smokestack and searches his library for a Plains. At this point all hell breaks lose as a guy playing next to us points out that Flagstones is a legendary permanent. We try to sort it out and the end of the story is that both of us search our libraries for Plains and Joachim sacrifices his Plains to Smokestack. I'm not exactly sure what happened next but at some point I sacrifice Smokestack and start drawing crap while Joachim gets back into the game. We both have a lot of lands and about 5 Tabernacle-effects total on the table now and I have a Crucible too so I decide to set a Chalice at three to stop his Crucible. Sadly I can't draw an Armageddon or a Smokestack to capitalize on this and the second Angel he draws abruptly finishes this game. I'm annoyed because I didn't see any of my two Angels or an Armageddon during the twenty or so drawsteps while he had both of his Angels.

From the sideboard I bring in Wastelands, Explosives and Angel for Trinispheres and a Chalice.

Game 2 I have an okay start with Chalice at zero once again and I play an early Magus that goes all the way. At one point I almost get Wasteland recursion going but Joachim stops it with Faith Fetters and when he plays a Morph I once again point to the Chalice. He wants to take it back but I don't allow it. After he gets his Morph countered I show him how to do it and hardcast the Angel but he topdecks a Faith Fetters and stops the flier. In the end it doesn't matter as I have an Armageddon just in time to set him back long enough for the Magus to come over for the final points of damage.

After this game we ask how much time is left and we're told we have 15 minutes to finish the third game. Looks like we played really fast up to this point.

Game 3 I finally see Joachims "secret mirror tech" as he suspends a Duskrider Peregrine. He gets stuck on two lands but Peregrine plus Factory combined with my Ancient Tomb take me down to 3 life before Smokestack and Magus take care of them. In the perhaps deciding moment of the game I decide to sacifice Smokestack to its trigger instead of one of my three lands (Ancient Tomb, Plains used to pay for Magus, City of Traitors) or the Chalice at zero because I want to be able to play Crucible should I topdeck it and I want to keep the Chalice so Joachim can't use Mox Diamonds to get back into the game. At first my decision looked to be correct because I didn't draw castable stuff, only Armageddon and Mox Diamond but when Joachim played Wasteland and suspended a second Peregrine my Magus couldn't do anything and the flier finished me while I was holding two Plains that I didn't want to cast.
This situation was especially bad for me because if I wanted to cast Armageddon I'd have to tap Ancient Tomb and manaburn for one (remember I had City of Traitors) killing myself at 3 life. If I wanted to build up Armageddon without manaburn I'd have to play one of the two Plains, sacrifice my City of Traitors and then he'd Wasteland my Tomb leaving me with 2 Plains in play (one needed to support Magus) and a Plains in hand so I'd need a 2-mana-land or 2 Plains off the top.

We finished one minute before extra turns. Quite an accomplishment in the Stax mirror I'd say.

Thinking that my lucky streak was over I went into the last round not really confident especially after I knew who my opponent would be.

Round 5 against Lukas with Gbw Survival
He's playing with Deeds and a lot of stuff that has "I pwn Stax" written all over it so I think I'm in for a short round especially after he wins the die roll and wants to go first.

Game 1 I have to mulligan and keep a hand with five lands and a Magus. He plays first turn Cabal Therapy naming Chalice. I draw another land, play Flagstones and say go. He gets a Survival and Therapies some more seeing more lands but getting rid of the Magus. I play a topdecked Crucible and he has a Harmonic Sliver to destroy it. A Tarmogoyf starts beating me shortly after and all I can do is play a second Crucible and try to chumpblock with recurring Factories but he has Swords to Plowshares for both of them. He makes a big mistake when he gets a Sakura Tribe Elder and although he has seen the Tabernacle in my hand he eot sacrifices it for a land. Tarmogoyf and Harmonic Sliver take me down to six and I'm dead on the board but I miraculously topdeck Armageddon, play it and follow it up with The Tabernacle I've been holding from the beginning. Lukas loses all his lands, has to sacrifice all his creatures during his upkeep and Trinisphere locks him up. I didn't think I could win this game but Armageddon is just so good.

I don't know exactly how to board but in the end decide on taking out two Angels, two Trinisphere and two Smokestack for four Suppression Field and two Silent Arbiter.

Game 2 I start with City of Traitors, Mox, Trinisphere after Lukas went land, go. Second turn Lukas plays another basic land and passes back to me. Now here is where I lose the game. My hand has Mox Diamond, Mishra's Factory, Armageddon 2x and I think Suppression Field. I tap Mox and City to play the second Mox pitching Mishra's Factory, trying to set up Armageddon next turn. My faulty logic here was that I needed the two mana from the Moxen to get back into the game faster after the Geddon and that I'd rather hit three of his lands than two. What I didn't consider is that basically every card in his deck could wreck me there. If he has the third land he can just play a threat and kill me under my Trinisphere, or he can use the three mana to Therapy me naming Armageddon. What happened was that he used the three mana to cast Pernicious Deed. After thinking for a long time he decides to activate it for zero killing both of my Moxen and screwing me into oblivion. I don't draw land for like hudreds of turns and he is a bit flooded and can't find a creature to kill me. However he manages to Therapy me for my Geddons and Extirpates all the Factories and Geddons from my deck. I try to hang on hoping to at least get a draw against what I think is a really bad matchup but eventually Goyf comes down to kill me.

Game 3 I am finally on the play and I utterly annihilate him. First turn I play Chalice for 1. Second Turn Trinisphere, third turn Suppression Field. Smokestack and Magus are icing on the cake. Because he only draws fetchlands that don't work well under Suppression Field I can reduce him to zero permanents quite fast. Some spectators tell us that we only have three more minute before extra turns and I have to finish him quickly with a Magus and a Factory. These last minutes I think I played the fastest flawless Magic I ever played. See how fast you can go through your upkeep with a Smokestack, a Magus of the Tabernacle and a Flagstones of Trokair :)
Anyway I manage to get him down to twelve just before extraturns are called and after it is clear that I will get three more turns to deal exactly twelve he concedes.

Props
All the people who were there
Stax for being awesome
the car for not having a flat tire
prizes (Volcanic Island me likey)

Slops
my cousin Jens for having to work that day
Gaddock Teeg for hosing all the decks I like and making me play with him once he's out

Aggro_zombies
09-17-2007, 08:24 PM
Bravo on the tournament report, and congratulations on your performance. Couple quick questions:

1) Have you ever found yourself wanting Tangle Wire?
2) When The Teegmeister comes out, would you consider running Oblivion Ring as an answer, or perhaps Powder Keg?
3) Speaking of those, have you ever found yourself wanting more removal (EE, Keg, etc.).

Silverdragon
09-18-2007, 07:51 AM
1) No, I didn't want Tangle Wire a single time. Although I encountered some situations in testing where it would have been okay there simply is no card in the deck I'd want to cut for it.
2) Yes absolutely. I am currently thinking about readding Powder Kegs to the maindeck and even though I'm not impressed by Oblivion Ring I'll definitely test it.
3) The only matchup I wanted more creature removal so far was in the mirror. Aside from that I'm happy with the options I have to deal with creatures at the moment. Enchantment and Artifact removal is another story. Right now the sideboarded Explosives have once again left for Seal of Cleansing because it hits more expensive Artifacts and Enchantments too (opposing Crucibles, Nev Disks etc.)
In tournaments I didn't need the Explosives to deal with Goblin Tokens yet but being able to hit multiple 1cc to 2cc cards might be too good to pass up (especially against Sterling Grove).

Nihil Credo
09-18-2007, 10:18 AM
About Duskrider Peregrine... I've found out that pretty much every Pikual player these days is splashing green for Tarmogoyf and Pernicious Deed. The latter makes the matchup even harder, but in particular the former makes Peregrine very bad.

I've been trying something else for that particular problem, and I've stumbled on Gift of Estates. While it's janky as hell, it's also saved my ass in three different games so far: in two of them it just got me out of manascrew, and in a third it let me fuel Smokestack@1 long enough to get even on board position.
I thought it would be a problem with Chalice@2 (which is by far the best setting in that matchup), but turns out that if I resolve Chalice@2 they just can't win, since it hits all of their creatures.

I suggest you give Gift a try if you're worried about Vindicate.dec, it's really nice; the only problem is that it's really narrow, whereas Peregrine is still a threat. I suppose Gift could also be nice in the mirror match, though...

Silverdragon
10-03-2007, 04:21 AM
After tinkering quite a bit with the deck again I can tell you some things I've found out about Oblivion Ring and Gaddock Teeg. First, Oblivion Ring is nice but "only" on the same level as Seal of Cleansing or Powder Keg. The Ring may be replacing those cards in my builds, maybe not. It really depends on what cards you expect to play against (for example Ring is the best solution against Gaddock but Keg is better against Nimble Mongoose and Seal is best against Survival or Landstill).
I have tested about 30 games against Survival with Gaddock Teeg and tried a lot of different cards. One thing I realized pretty fast was that Gaddock is not the most dangerous 2-drop Survival has against you. Tarmogoyf is.
That may seem obvious to most of you and I was aware of Goyfs power before but it was shocking to find out just how powerful this guy is compared to other scary 2-drops.
Now that may sound horrible for the future of Stax but fear not I found a long forgotten tech that helps immensely especially against Gaddock and I will bring it to a tournament this Friday. I will try to write a report again and I hope my tech is as good in a tournament as it was in testing.

Faluzure
10-03-2007, 10:12 AM
What do you do against MUC who sideboards in Hurkyll's Recall? I ran into that yesterday playtesting my deck. Even if you're on the go and you drop a first turn Trinisphere, it's a ticking timebomb. The only thing I've found to combat this is to try to pull off an Armageddon ASAP. That means having to mulligan down to a Trinisphere, Mox Diamond and Armageddon.

ClearSkies
10-03-2007, 10:24 AM
What do you do against MUC who sideboards in Hurkyll's Recall? I ran into that yesterday playtesting my deck. Even if you're on the go and you drop a first turn Trinisphere, it's a ticking timebomb. The only thing I've found to combat this is to try to pull off an Armageddon ASAP. That means having to mulligan down to a Trinisphere, Mox Diamond and Armageddon.

Chalice of the Void for two? I suppose you can run stuff like Voidstone Gargoyle (or even some Tundra + Meddling Mage... or not)

If someone is putting in Hurkyll's recall in their sideboard just for you, then just accept the lost. (Or race that person with your factories?)

I havn't played anyone with that card in the sideboard in Legacy. If this was Vintage, that would be a different story.

Faluzure
10-03-2007, 10:41 AM
Chalice of the Void for two? I suppose you can run stuff like Voidstone Gargoyle (or even some Tundra + Meddling Mage... or not)

If someone is putting in Hurkyll's recall in their sideboard just for you, then just accept the lost. (Or race that person with your factories?)

I havn't played anyone with that card in the sideboard in Legacy. If this was Vintage, that would be a different story.

Well, there's a small local tournament happening in a week. Everyone knows I play this version of Stax and I guess you can say they are metagaming particularly against me. So yeah, Hurkyll's Recall made an appearance.

But thanks for the suggestion. It's too early in the morning and I totally forgot about that card (even though 4 copies are in my deck). I never seem to draw them.

Silverdragon
10-03-2007, 10:41 AM
MonoU is basically a worse Landstill. You have Defense Grid as additional Trinisphere effects, Manlands to put pressure on and Chalice@2 to stop most nonsense. Hurkyls Recall is far less scary than Pernicious Deed because you can often replay multiple cards at once. Magus is also not affected and a single Armageddon means game over. If you are really concerned about this matchup then you can play Winter Orbs or Uba Masks too. Glowrider works as a hard to bounce 2Sphere effect and True Believer stops Hurkyl's Recall but sadly not much else. Playing the aggro-control game with Angels might work too. I also tried a single Eternal Dragon during testing to help the Landstill matchup and although it was not great against them (Landstill has Swords) it might be a bomb against MonoU.

Oh btw best advise I can give: Surprise them with Stasis or Pox instead.

update on secret tech after testing: 1) Oblivion Ring is better 2) Mongoose > Tech
I made some heavy changes to the maindeck to fit in Culling Scales but after I found out that it targets I'll either try Porphyry Nodes tomorrow or keep my old list until Lorwyn adds Oblivion Ring.
Don't get me wrong Culling Scales is really good against the right decks in the right metagame (that means no combodecks and no Nimble Mongoose). To be more precise I put Chalice of the Void into the Sideboard and added Winter Orbs instead and then I cut the Explosives (remember no combodecks) for Scales. This improves the Survival matchup quite a bit and helps immensely against Baseruption. Although these are two of the three matchups I expect to face the most I just don't want the regular Threshold and Combo matchups to drop that much by playing cards that don't affect them at all.

f|i[p]
10-05-2007, 01:13 AM
@Splashing

I have tried the green splash..I have tried library, and words. I really wouldnt know if they are good as some people think, it is a 2 card combo after all. Before we even get to make use of words, we have to wait for library.Although library is good on its own, at times when I draw it, I would usually rather have something else.. Like EE or wrath.(this is because I get to test it against goblins alot)THe deck is slow enough as it is. and the only reason I would really run green it is for krosan grip or maybe a good big green/white creature...as for p. deed is a headache as well as disk...ofcourse p. needle is also an option which makes us stay mono colored... but since krosan grip is uncounterable it makes my whole plan putting permanents down safer.


@blueI have never tried this splash... But Ive always liked ghostly prisons as even one stops goblins on its tracks. Since blue offers propaganda and other draw spells. I think it would be worth it.

But I dont know if splashing is really a good idea, since our mana base would be affected... Although goblins are in a decline and I dont see much homebrew and Land D. strategies, maybe it would be a good idea to test splashes..


I was wondering... Is there any other creature worth putting in the exalted angel slot, I know she is one of the best creatures...But we never really put her down that early anyway, we usually wait to gain control of the board using prison pieces before we put her down..and I almost never put her down morphed anyway(at least in my case).

I was thinking vigilance, as they can serve the blocking and offensive role at the same time.

I was searching for creatures in magic workstation and saw this, I have not tested her, but just wanted some thoughts on it as well..

Adarkar Valkyrie,
She has the same casting cost as exalted when hard casted
She has flying and vigilance which is good as she can serve both the aggro and defensive roles


Her ability is just a bonus i guess but it is useful,

T: When target creature other than Adarkar Valkyrie is put into a graveyard this turn, return that card to play under your control.

You can steal creatures that they sacrifice, or you kill via smokestack,magus or EE. You can use it to save your own creatures, from smokestack..or magus as well( the only creature you can save I guess).

She seems to have lots of uses, although she has no lifelink ability and is harder to cast..and a lot slower..but I very very rarely casted angel early...or morphed..If I wasn't putting early pressure via lock pieces to be able to delay the game and play Prison.. I usually found myself looking for answers...

Just a thought

Nihil Credo
10-05-2007, 08:04 AM
Adarkar Valkyrie is terrible. The #1 reason to run Exalted Angel is that it kills quickly, but the #2 one is that it compensates for the damage from Ancient Tomb (and sometimes from manaburn).
Outracing your opponent's creatures, which Angel usually does, is better than Vigilance, not to mention Valkyrie loses a fight to Tarmogoyf anyway.
The third ability is terrible because you have to choose a target before they choose what to sac to Smokestack, so you'll give up 4 damage for very little benefit - unless they have to sac all their creatures, in which case you have practically won already.

Faluzure
10-05-2007, 08:43 AM
Would you guys say Pithing Needle is the only thing vs Pernicious Deed? There's still a lot of Rock//Pernicious Deed decks in my Metagame.

My alternative that I'm using instead of Pithing Needle is Karmic Justice. Despite the :1::w: additional cost, you get a 1-sided Obliterate & Tranquility. That will make your opponent think twice of using his Deed. Of course, you'd have to topdeck a win condition but at least you'd have land advantage.

Nihil Credo
10-05-2007, 09:02 AM
Oblivion Ring handles Pernicious Deed nicely, assuming they don't have the mana to play Deed and pop it for 3+ in the same turn. You can even sack it to an aggressive Smokestack once they are low on land, since they won't be able to use it anyway. However, Oblivion Ring is vulnerable to other things they may bring in (Grip and the like).

Suppression Field is another option. If you're confident in your ability to keep them under about five mana, it will hose Deeds quite effectively.

But really, I'd say Exalted Angel is the best anti-Deed card in the deck ;)

Faluzure
10-05-2007, 09:20 AM
Oblivion Ring handles Pernicious Deed nicely, assuming they don't have the mana to play Deed and pop it for 3+ in the same turn. You can even sack it to an aggressive Smokestack once they are low on land, since they won't be able to use it anyway. However, Oblivion Ring is vulnerable to other things they may bring in (Grip and the like).

Suppression Field is another option. If you're confident in your ability to keep them under about five mana, it will hose Deeds quite effectively.

But really, I'd say Exalted Angel is the best anti-Deed card in the deck ;)

Hmm... Oblivion Ring is ok. You're right though, Suppression Field is good for anti-Deed.

I'm still thinking Karmic Justice warrants an SB option just because your opponent is going to lose 1 permanent of your choice whether if they choose to remove it or another artifact/enchantment as long as Karmic Justice is in play. Thus you're trading cards 2-for-1.

f|i[p]
10-05-2007, 09:28 AM
@ the valkyrie, your right.

@karmic justice

Im not sure about karmic justice... it looks really good.

when you do cast karmic justice first, that means before he does put pernicious deed into play he would want to disenchant it(thus you can destroy a permanent of his)..or if he already has deed in play he can just pop it in response to your playing the karmic justice... but then again.. he can also do the same if you had disenchant or seal...

its very interesting..its easy to cast..2 colorless and one white is never a problem for this deck...

Ill test it out.. its very protective and very good against deed or disk and the likes.. it helps our gameplan of destroying permanents..and we usually have around 3-5 permanents or even more lying around.. it also helps against wasteland...wastes one of our lands.. he loses 2 permanents(which includes his own wasteland)...

Faluzure
10-05-2007, 10:45 AM
;167385']@ the valkyrie, your right.

@karmic justice

Im not sure about karmic justice... it looks really good.

when you do cast karmic justice first, that means before he does put pernicious deed into play he would want to disenchant it(thus you can destroy a permanent of his)..or if he already has deed in play he can just pop it in response to your playing the karmic justice... but then again.. he can also do the same if you had disenchant or seal...

its very interesting..its easy to cast..2 colorless and one white is never a problem for this deck...

Ill test it out.. its very protective and very good against deed or disk and the likes.. it helps our gameplan of destroying permanents..and we usually have around 3-5 permanents or even more lying around.. it also helps against wasteland...wastes one of our lands.. he loses 2 permanents(which includes his own wasteland)...

I didn't think about the 2-for-1 Wasteland. That's amazing. Karmic Justice Post-SB is really good I think. We have absolutely no creatures in this deck, so Karmic Justice's "noncreature permanent" doesn't apply to us. Karmic Justice acting as another permanent remover in addition to Smokestack/Armageddon/Magus of the Tabernacle is icing on the cake.

f|i[p]
10-05-2007, 12:41 PM
Yes its good.. but very defensive....

even disenchants.. or krosan grips.. as long as its in play.. its usually 2 for 1...

he uses disenchant.. you get to destroy a non creature permanent...2 cards for 1 card ...I think it will always be 2 for 1 as long as it hits play...

Silverdragon
10-05-2007, 03:59 PM
Ok first of all I went 1-2-1 at the tournament today. Very short report:
Rd 1 against W/G Stompy with Savannah Lions, Rancor, Equipments etc. (very casual, no duals or Jittes)
Game 1 I steamroll him with 2 Ghostly Prisons and Armageddon followed by Tabernacle and Smokestack.
Game 2 He gets rid of my only Ghostly Prison and bashes me down to 3 while I'm manascrewed. Luckily Crucible comes just in time allowing me to play Armageddon and Tabernacle again to put him on the ropes. Factory finishes it like in game 1.
Rd 2 against 3c Landstill (Ubw)
Game 1 I keep a hand with 2 Winter Orbs, Armageddon and lots of mana. My turn 1 Winter Orb resolves, so does my Smokestack and Geddon. He concedes.
Game 2 I probably boarded wrong. Meddling Mages on Geddon and Orb kill me before Smokestack can get enough counters to eat his board.
Game 3 He has another Mage on Geddon and casts Standstill. I draw and play Mishra's Factory to hold him back. I can't remember the details here but somehow I had to crack his Standstill (I think he had a Factory himself) and it went downhill from there as I couldn't draw enough relevant spells to stop the Mage beatdown (I think he played Swords on 2 Factories and Stifled the last activation of the third to get through for lethal).
Rd 3 against Aggro Loam
Game 1 My opponent had an early Dark Confidant and bashed me down with it plus a Tarmogoyf later while Wasteland recursion kept me at 3 mana the whole time. Because of his 2 Mox Diamonds I didn't really have a chance to get into the game.
Game 2 Mulligan to 4, nothing to see here. At one point I could've turned the game around with Armageddon into Tabernacle but Seismic Assault would've finished me anyway.
Rd 4 against UR Landstill
Game 1 My first turn Trinisphere resolved as did my second turn Ghostly Prison and third turn Winter Orb. At one point my opponent played Ice tapping my Trinisphere but he could only play a Brainstorm during his turn. I untapped, played Armageddon and that was game.
Game 2 He had Shattering Sprees for my Artifacts so it came down to a battle of the Factories. Eventually after some Wasteland and burn action I was at 6 life and he showed me double Bolt to end it.
Game 3 He got Nev Disk + Academy Ruins going but I easily played around it thanks to Winter Orbs and Suppression Fields. I also had 2 Crucibles to keep attacking with Factories but when extraturns were announced he was still at six and I only had one active Factory (he got the first extraturn so I only had turns 2 and 4 to attack him). During the second extraturn I played a freshly drawn Factory and activated the other. He didn't hesitate and bolted it. To save it I had to use both pump abilities so I couldn't attack that turn. Even if I had drawn another Factory I'd only be able to deal 5 damage during the 4th extraturn so we drawed.

In total that's a 2-3-1 record in games against Landstill that day. It could've been worse. Btw Aggro Loam and Survival got 1st and 2nd, another Staxdeck made 3rd place.

My list:
4 Armageddon
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Mox Diamond
3 Winter Orb
2 Exalted Angel
2 Powder Keg
8 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

sb
4 Defense Grid
4 Suppression Field
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Powder Keg

Winter Orbs were great. I did miss singleton Wasteland a bit sometimes. Angel was drawn a total of 1 time against Aggro Loam where it was instantly burned down by Seismic Assault. The sideboard can stay as it is but I need to better memorize what I have to take out against some matchups (boarding was too random today). Everytime I saw Powder Keg it was good but I think it'll be replaced by Oblivion Ring anyway.
Possible changes in the future: -2 Angel -2 Keg; +3 Oblivion Ring, +1 Wasteland

Karmic Justice looks nice but unless you are married with Stax (like me it seems) you should just change your deck when you encounter that much hate.

Machinus
10-05-2007, 05:18 PM
Thank you for the detailed report. It is very interesting to see this deck's performance in different metagames.

How strong is Winter Orb?

ClearSkies
10-05-2007, 05:55 PM
How was the Chalice of the Void in sideboard instead of mainboarded? Was there any time in that tournment you wish you drawed one?

Silverdragon
10-05-2007, 07:04 PM
Actually there was not a single time I wanted Chalice although I did board it in against Aggro Loam. I will probably keep it in the board against combo but I'm currently searching for other solutions (there was only one Belcher present and I expect its pilot to play Survival next time).
Winter Orb is awesome, functioning as Armageddon 5-7. It even won me games against Threshold in testing. For a (very) short time I considered playing Tangle Wires to make the Orb even stronger but Tabernacle and Prisons already do a good job in this regard. Interestingly most of the time you don't have to wait for your opponent to tap out before you drop the Orb. As long as you can get to 4 mana in a reasonable time just play the Orb so he has another thing to play around. Trinisphere alone can slow your opponent down a lot. Orb + Sphere assures that he'll only play a spell every second turn.
Sadly the Orb can sometimes backfire against the wrong decks so I won't always recommend it.

Machinus
10-05-2007, 08:25 PM
Orb is the kind of card that Xerox decks used to run to shut down mana-heavy strategies like Control decks. It doesn't make sense to me that it would be good in Stax vs. Threshold. Doesn't Threshold have the ability to play around having few lands?

Silverdragon
10-05-2007, 09:32 PM
Orb is the kind of card that Xerox decks used to run to shut down mana-heavy strategies like Control decks. It doesn't make sense to me that it would be good in Stax vs. Threshold. Doesn't Threshold have the ability to play around having few lands?

That's what I thought too but the reality is just a little bit different. It is quite astonishing how much difference having 1 mana and having 2 mana makes in most modern Threshold lists. I should add that lists maindecking Counterbalance are the most prevalent in my meta so there is definitely a difference in the effectiveness of Orb against "Bardo-style" Threshold and what I tested against. Regardless, a lot of times you make them need more than 1 or 2 mana because of Tabernacle or Ghostly Prison and that's the point where Orb can really help by being cheaper and easier to force through than Armageddon (or in reverse: playing turn 1 Orb makes Ghostly Prison and Magus must-counter in a lot of situations).
It does usually get boarded out against Thresh to bring in the usual suspects however lately I'm not that impressed by Chalice anymore. Mainly this is because the only relevant card it hits at X=1 is Nimble Mongoose and at X=2 it is too easy to run into Daze or see the Tarmogoyf entering play before you get it down. Perhaps I'm a bit biased here but in my testing the games I lose I get run over by Goyf, Enforcer or Dragon regardless of Chalice at 1.

f|i[p]
10-06-2007, 01:46 AM
As for karmic justice.. Ill test it really well... As I am in love with prison decks and no one brings stax to our metagame.


Nice report, it seems that we really do have bad match ups with land still and loam.

I have never played against landstill or loam with stax, Is our match up really that bad?

@winter orb

I have been playing winter orb in my casual prison deck for a long time.. And I still believe that winter orb only belongs in the sideboard. It only really helps against control and is only good when you have magus/tabernacle or ghostly prison in play against aggro. As you said it also does backfire at times. Although if you do have 6 geddons like the the other lists. It could be an option.. But I still love chalice, and would not take it out at all from the main. Chalice helps against more decks in my area.

@powder keg
I know keg is slower than EE. How did it go for you? was it too slow?

I often find myself looking for more answers in this deck.. specially against aggro decks at times you wont draw into Ghostly prisons or EE and magus comes in too late... Its usually a race.Or a question of who plays first( since I am a very unlucky person, I always lose the die roll)..if I get to lock him first its usually game over or he gets to overwhelm me first..(but again this is because I test mostly against goblins) I still see as ghostly prison one of the best agrro hoser in this deck.

EE and kegs are more versatile as they can hit anything from enchantments to artifacts, tokens and at sometimes early lackeys as well. How many cards does this actually answer? I often find myself wishing I had something else in my hand.

Silverdragon
10-06-2007, 07:44 AM
Generally against Loam the matchup is not that bad especially against slower variants. Chalice at 2 handles their deck quite well but as I already said I mulliganed to 4 in game 2 (not finding any land in a deck with 24 manasources is tech) and there was not much I could do.
The hardest part in the Landstill matchup is surviving Pernicious Deed, closely followed by getting a Ravages of War/Armageddon/Winter Orb through their Counterwall and Meddling Mages. I'd have won the last game against a recurring Disk if we hadn't gone to time because I had all the things I needed to force through Armageddon and win from there but I couldn't draw any of the Geddons before extraturns so it didn't matter.
I made mistakes in the previous match against the 3c Landstill and forgot about Meddling Mage during boarding for game 2. However my opponent also played well so I guess I'd have lost anyway.

Concerning Winter Orb, yes it was a metagame decision and it paid off more or less (lots of control and other manahungry decks in the meta). With the direction the metagame takes here I think I'll keep the Orbs for now but I will keep a close look at how they perform in further testing and tournaments.

Personally I prefer Powder Keg over EE for 3 reasons. 1) It'll get more than 1 counter more reliably than EE. I want to kill Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant and the occasional Crucible of Worlds more than I want to kill a Mongoose or random other 1cc critter. Relying on a Mox Diamond to be able to hit 2cc stuff is really annoying at times. 2) It kills Manlands. Not much to say here except that we had atleast 5 decks using Manlands yesterday in a field of 14 players. 3) It can be played blindly first turn. Without Chalice I'm lacking some solid frst turn plays and Powder Keg is nice here. Imagine the following scenario with EE: you: Ancient Tomb, go; opp: Trop, Mongoose, go; you: Plains, EE@1, activate now or during his turn. Now with Keg: you: Tomb, Keg, go; opp: Trop, Mongoose, go; you: Plains, Trinisphere, activate Keg for 1 now or during his turn.
Obviously you don't need to activate Keg or Explosives right there but no matter how you play it if you don't want to blindly set EE at 1 during your first turn it will eventually tie up your mana in a subsequent turn.
Of course this is all moot once we get to play with Oblivion Ring as that card is far better in the current metagame. Keg and Explosives are still good handling EtW and Bridge tokens but I'd say we'll find them in the sideboard more often than maindeck post Lorwyn.

Fred Bear
10-07-2007, 03:15 PM
Silverdragon, Have you tried any additional artifact mana to help out with Winter Orb? I really liked it along with either Coalition Relic or Thran Dynamo when I tested it. It made more Armageddon effects easier to handle, and the deck didn't rely as much on Crucible of Worlds.

Sphere of Resistance is good versus most of the 'fast' combo decks if you are looking for something other than Chalice.

As for the Karmic Justice discussion - I hated it when I have tested it. This deck has so many options for proactive play, that Justice is wasted space. It will not improve any of Stax's bad match-ups which is what you really need your sideboard to do.

Fred Bear...

ClearSkies
10-07-2007, 04:34 PM
Sphere of Resistance is good versus most of the 'fast' combo decks if you are looking for something other than Chalice.

Don't Trinisphere help versus those 'fast' combo decks already?

Also, about those mana artifacts, when exactly do you want to play them? If you play them early, you kind wasted a turn. If you play them later, you don't need the mana, really.

Fred Bear
10-07-2007, 06:36 PM
Trinisphere is good against fast combo, if you draw it and get a chance to play it. I offered Sphere of Resistance as a sideboard alternative to Chalice of the Void. I'm not suggesting replacing 3-sphere, just adding another knock-out effect against combo (just like Chalice would be). I've found Sphere of Resistance to be good against control decks and frankly most of the current meta which runs on a very tight mana-curve. Brainstorm for 1U isn't nearly as good, especially when it doesn't leave them the 1 needed to Daze.

The mana-artifacts are awkward and require a very different build, but with Winter Orb, I found they are much better (since they continue to untap under the Orb). They are by no means a 4-of inclusion, but I found that 2 Coalition Relics or 2 Thran Dynamos almost act like extra Crucible of Worlds and allowed me to go up to 6 Armageddon effects without suffering much at all.

Setting up the board is what Stax does in the early game. I wouldn't call playing a mana-artifact early a wasted turn anymore than I would call a turn 3 Trinisphere a waste - you are working on setting up inevitability - not necessarily a fast process. There are a lot of games where I've found the deck struggles without a Crucible in play. A turn 1-2 Artifact accelerant, especially in a build using Winter Orb, could really exploit that tempo advantage.

Fred Bear...

The Wes
10-12-2007, 01:17 PM
Anyone else trying with black? It gives access to vindicate, braids, and leyline of the void (sb) at the very least. I've been having pretty good luck with it.

lolosoon
10-12-2007, 03:06 PM
Anyone else trying with black? It gives access to vindicate, braids, and leyline of the void (sb) at the very least. I've been having pretty good luck with it.
I've been asking that HERE (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=168781#post168781) for two days, with no feedback for now... =/

ClearSkies
10-12-2007, 03:24 PM
Anyone else trying with black? It gives access to vindicate, braids, and leyline of the void (sb) at the very least. I've been having pretty good luck with it.

While Vindicate is nice and all. Splashing Black just for this doesn't seem to be worth it.

Why Braids? Not only does it cost B, it cost double B, which makes it really hard to bring it out. Also, it is a creature, and many decks have more ways to get rid of creatures than artifacts. Not to mention the fact it is just bad with Magus of the Tabernacle out.

Trying to cast Leyline of the Void is just too hard for this deck. Besides, Ghostly Prisons, Trinispheres, and Chalices can hold back most graveyard based strategies. (Ichriod, Cephalid Breakfast) Supression Field can also be used to stop things like Survival and Life of the Loam control.

As for stuff like Eternal Garden and stuff like that... I guess you can just use Tormod Crypt or Phyrexian Furnace.

Besides, Mulligan decisions are pretty hard for Stax already. (To me it is) Adding Leyline of the Void just makes it even more harder.

I think these stuff was mentioned earlier before though.

The Wes
10-12-2007, 04:14 PM
Braids: Yes, he is a creature that can be swords'd or lightning bolted, but he can also attack. I don't run angels in my verions and sometimes I just need that extra damage. Also, Braids makes them sac right after I cast him. No waiting a turn to put a counter on it. Besides, you have chalice on 1 for a reason. I've just found it much better at getting a quick lock. A turn 2 Braids has given me a sofl lock a lot more often than a turn 2 smokestack. I know you can't ramp her up to anything higher than one a turn, but I still think it might have a place.
Leyline: Yes, it can be a bit hard to cast with the color requirements. But I am using scrublands and a couple godless shrines to even out my colors. I find that sometimes Ghostly Prisons, Trinispheres, and Chalices just can't do the job alone. Besides, some decks just say gg when you play it. Besides, its really fun to have against landstill and other stax decks.
Besides, up till about a week ago I was also running 4 sinkholes with the deck in place of Chalices, and then usually sb'ing them out after the first game.

badjuju
10-27-2007, 01:42 PM
Hey guys,

Just thought I'd try to get everyone back in the mood again. For those of you who play in Speyer, you must have seen Harald David's 3rd place finish with stax.

Here's the list for reference:

Angel Staxx
by Harald David
# Event: Legacy Turnier in Speyer - Oktober 2007
# Date: 20.10.2007
# Place: 3rd
# Participants: 22


3 Exalted Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

2 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War

4 Ghostly Prison
3 Suppression Field

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere

3 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
2 Horizon Canopy
7 Plains
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Wasteland

Sideboard:

4 Jötun Grunt
2 Pulse of the Fields
3 Disenchant
3 Pithing Needle
3 Rule of Law

Not sure if he metagamed at all, but some of his card choices differ quite a bit from the norm. I'd like to just outline a few cards that have been shirking widely-accepted play, go ahead and throw your input on each one:

Exalted Angel - is the beats and can sometime win games out of nowhere due to our ability to produce large amounts of mana very quickly. Coupled with some cheap lock pieces, she easily gets there without much resistance. Is she worth running? Harald definitely thought so, putting her as a solid 3-of.

Suppression Field - Everyone knows that it's deadly in several matchups, but nobody ever maindecks it. Being able to stop anything from Aether Vial to Fetchlands seems like a pretty good deal. Is it worth putting MD?

Cutting down on Stax? - This isn't the first list I've seen with less than 4 smokestacks. In my experience, I always want to see this card, and rarely do I ever regret getting doubles in my hand. Might have been cut for more metagame cards, but this has become a semi-new trend. Comments?

God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai - Is good for stax food and post-geddon. I haven't tested it yet, but running a copy or two might not hurt the deck. Paired with the Crucible/Stax lock, you can go ahead and set your stax to 2 counters without breaking a sweat. Worth running?

Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - Other than being ridiculously hard to find for a decent price, the card seems like a very efficient early answer to creatures. Because of this, David was able to drop one Magus of the Tabernacle. Not producing mana is a slight problem; I probably wouldn't run more than one because it's a legend. Worth running?

Horizon Canopy - Seems like a very smart inclusion in the deck. It produces white and cantrips - meaning it'll be infinite cantrips with crucible out. The deck seems to go into a very painful topdeck mode at times, maybe this is what we needed to shore that problem. Worth running?

NO Mishra's Factory! - Seems like the card was never amazing to begin with in this deck. It was good for infinite chump blocking and whatnot or a slow win condition, but is it as necessary as people deem it is? Being able to stuff Lackey must be nice tho.

The board is pretty much self-explanatory other than the inclusion of Pulse of the Fields. I've never actually played with the card outside of Mirrodin standard, but is that something we really need? It looks like David already has a very solid anti-aggro plan and the WW casting cost may be a hinderance at times. Lastly, what's everyone's stance on Pithing Needle?

Hopefully we can get more discussion going, don't let white stax die!

Nihil Credo
10-27-2007, 02:29 PM
The most flabbergasting thing is 3 Ancient Tombs. I agree with several of his choices (Angels, 3 Stacks), and find others worth discussing (Canopy, MD Field), but that one I would just dismiss as a total blunder. It's unlikely to be a money problem, either, since he ran 2 Tabernacles.

badjuju
10-27-2007, 02:59 PM
Yea definitely. I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be "4 tombs, 3 cities".

Jaynel
10-27-2007, 03:07 PM
Mishra's Factory isn't that great with Suppression Field, so that exclusion makes sense.

lolosoon
10-27-2007, 04:37 PM
Exalted Angel - is the beats and can sometime win games out of nowhere due to our ability to produce large amounts of mana very quickly. Coupled with some cheap lock pieces, she easily gets there without much resistance. Is she worth running? Harald definitely thought so, putting her as a solid 3-of.
With only 3 Magus and 0 Factories, Harald David had to put some alternate finisher in the deck. Turn 1 Morph, Turn 2 Angel is a great possibility to out race aggro if they can't find a quick answer (Chalice@1 and 3Sphere help that).
BUT, when you have board control the Angel is a win-more card. Even a 1/1 Spirit Token could win you the game at this point.
That, and the fact that the "turbo-angel start" isn't guaranteed made some ppl drop the beast for another body+Lockpiece component : Windborn Muse. I agree with them.


Suppression Field - Everyone knows that it's deadly in several matchups, but nobody ever maindecks it. Being able to stop anything from Aether Vial to Fetchlands seems like a pretty good deal. Is it worth putting MD?
Suppression Field is great but does nothing to threshold if they already fetched 1 land and drop another one. It shine after geddon though, but a successfull Geddon often win you the game.
They're not synergetic with Wastelands, Ports, Mishras and/or Canopy though. So I'll keep them off the deck.


Cutting down on Stax? - This isn't the first list I've seen with less than 4 smokestacks. In my experience, I always want to see this card, and rarely do I ever regret getting doubles in my hand. Might have been cut for more metagame cards, but this has become a semi-new trend. Comments? Why not, if the slot provided add to the consistency of the deck (Tangle Wire#3-4, Armageddon/Ravages of War #5-6 etc...). But $t@x is built to abuse the card, running less than 4 is weird...
Still, without Crucible and/or Flagstones//God's Eye you could not want an early Smokestack, so getting down to 3 is a possibility.


God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai - Is good for stax food and post-geddon. I haven't tested it yet, but running a copy or two might not hurt the deck. Paired with the Crucible/Stax lock, you can go ahead and set your stax to 2 counters without breaking a sweat. Worth running?
Dunno, the 1/1 token -even in multiple- is weak. But Ramping easily your soot counters to 2 is valuable.
Still, I'd rather run 4 Flagtones than 3+2 God's Eye. White mana is more valuable than the Spirit Token, especially with 3 angels MD Harald ran.


Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - Other than being ridiculously hard to find for a decent price, the card seems like a very efficient early answer to creatures. Because of this, David was able to drop one Magus of the Tabernacle. Not producing mana is a slight problem; I probably wouldn't run more than one because it's a legend. Worth running?
Tabernacle is VERY efficient and VERY expensive !! For budget and "body packed-in" choice, I prefer 4 Magus. But I wish I could add 1 or 2 additional tabernacle effect round 2 versus aggro decks.
The Legend isn't a problem when your run 4 Mox Diamonds to pitch the extra one to the 'yard.


Horizon Canopy - Seems like a very smart inclusion in the deck. It produces white and cantrips - meaning it'll be infinite cantrips with crucible out. The deck seems to go into a very painful topdeck mode at times, maybe this is what we needed to shore that problem. Worth running?
Recurring Canopy Horizon is the best draw option for the deck (the other one would be Bottled Cloister/Grafted Skullcap) and a nice recent addition to th deck.
I think they have to be included as a 2 of in every build that doesn't run Supp. Fields.


NO Mishra's Factory! - Seems like the card was never amazing to begin with in this deck. It was good for infinite chump blocking and whatnot or a slow win condition, but is it as necessary as people deem it is? Being able to stuff Lackey must be nice tho.
Not that good in addition to Suppression Field, but I can't see why you should not run at least 3 of them without the pesky enchantment.
Recurring Mana+Uncounterable (Tabernacle-proof)Beater all-in-one ? Yummy !!!


Have you got a list of the decks Harald encounterd through top8 ?! It could explain a lot of his choices. (The lone Ghost Quarter for exemple, but mainly the Suppression Field MD presence...)

Jaynel
10-27-2007, 06:21 PM
What do you think about lands like Tabernacle and Maze of Ith that don't make mana? Are they any good in this type of deck?

ClearSkies
10-27-2007, 07:09 PM
What do you think about lands like Tabernacle and Maze of Ith that don't make mana? Are they any good in this type of deck?

Maze of Ith wouldn't be good in this deck. At most, you only want 1, but yet, you can't really search for it like Eternal Garden. So, it is kind of useless as a one of, but clog up too much space as multiples. Also, Ghostly Prison and Magus of the Tabernacle combined with Armageddon already function nicely against creatures.

As for Tabernacle (the land), yea, it is a good card in this deck. It just that it is expensive to get one. All you need to do it play it, and it does its thing. Of course, it shouldn't really be played as a 4x of since it doesn't produce mana and it is legendary. Usually 1-2 of is good. Big problem is the price of these.

Silverdragon
10-27-2007, 08:12 PM
1. Exalted Angel

I was always a fan of Exalted Angel for its ability to finish games really quick. Only recently I've discovered that, crazy as it sounds, Exalted Angel might in fact be another lockpiece. Think about Blinding Angel and compare it to Exalted. In a sense Exalted is just another softlock component for opposing aggrodecks. Ghostly Prison effectively says your opponent needs at least 2 mana to attack and consequently deal damage. Angel says your opponent needs at least 5 power of creatures on the table to deal damage. So theoretically just as he has to draw more mana when he's manascrewed he needs to draw more power/additional or bigger creatures when he's "locked" by Exalted. The lifegain works against non-infine damage based combo (Tendrils) and Burn in a similar way. Think of it as a pseudo Disrupting Scepter. Every time you gain life your opponent needs one more spell to kill you.

2. Suppression Field

The only decks Field is weak against are Tendrils Combo and Thresh. Most Thresh decks I've seen lately run maindeck Top/Balance so Field is at least marginally useful later in the game slowing down Top.
Against everything else there are always things to stop. Just to name a few: Survival, Deed, Manlands, Isochrons Scepter, Ravager, Cycling Lands, Fetchlands, Aether Vial, Jitte and other Equipments.
The only thing that stopped me from playing Fields maindeck so far was that I couldn't find room. That and Factories are just amazing too but more on that later.

3. Smokestack

Personally I don't like going down to 3 because the only deck you don't want to see them against is Goblins.
Stax has 8 cards in the whole deck that don't work well with its namesake, Geddons and Mox Diamonds. Aside from these every single card is a permanent that can be cast at 4 mana so you won't ever have a problem to keep the Stack at 1. Thanks to Flagstones and God's Eye you can even ramp it to 2 for some time until Crucible arrives. With Crucible you should only stay at 1 counter if your opponent has no or almost no permanents in play.

4. God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai

Imho only an option if you run MD Suppression Fields. It is useful no doubt but it's also just a weak card in general. You need to resolve Armageddon or Smokestack for it to be more than a worse than basic land and even if you resolve Smokestack or Armageddon all you get is a 1/1 token.
It has bad synergy with Tabernacle effects too but this is minor I think.

5. Tabernacle

Singleton Tabernacle has won me some games so far but about half the time I wished it was another basic Plains. I'll continue to run 1 but I think 2 put an unnecessary strain on you manabase.

6. Horizon Canopy

Canopy was bad against Goblins during my testing. The pain you take from its manaability is not a big problem. IIrc I didn't cycle it very often without a Crucible but with Crucible Canopy is amazing in this deck.
I think I'll go back to test it more now that Goblins is on the decline.

7. Mishra's Factory

This card is just rock solid. No more no less. You will never regret having some of them in your deck during a tourney. Most importantly they speed up your clock more than Blinkmoth Nexus or God's Eye ever could. They can block and trade with lots of creatures at a minimal mana investment. The fact that their pump ability is free makes them superior to Nexus in this deck. Nexus can chumpblock fliers but aside from Fairie Stompy I don't see where this is relevant.
A single Factory can trade with a threshed Nimble Mongoose. 2 Factories plus another land allow you to trade with a Loxodon Hierarch or Ravenous Baloth.
Of course as lolosoon already mentioned Factory is also uncounterable and Tabernacle-proof.

8.
Have you got a list of the decks Harald encounterd through top8 ?! It could explain a lot of his choices. (The lone Ghost Quarter for exemple, but mainly the Suppression Field MD presence...)

There were no top 8 play-offs, just 5 rounds of swiss with tiebreakers deciding final standings. I know that he played against a "Lands!" deck (with Pernicious Deed) and won but not much else.

HdH_Cthulhu
10-27-2007, 11:09 PM
1. Exalted Angel
5. Tabernacle

Singleton Tabernacle has won me some games so far but about half the time I wished it was another basic Plains. I'll continue to run 1 but I think 2 put an unnecessary strain on you manabase.




Dont compair Tabernacle with Plains.
See it as a spell with 0cc split second and the drawback from Rock Jockey

Silverdragon
10-28-2007, 11:30 AM
Dont compair Tabernacle with Plains.
See it as a spell with 0cc split second and the drawback from Rock Jockey

You are right and I should add that Tabernacle always occupies a spell-slot in my lists however what I wanted to say was that sometimes I'd rather have another land in that slot (i.e. going from 24 manaproducing lands + Tabernacle to 25 manaproducing lands).

klaus
10-30-2007, 08:23 AM
I've done some testing on a 3-of Serum Powder MD.

Testing a list that comprises the stax core + some common additions, I came to the conclusion that my (must-) mulligan rate was comparably high, partly due to the lack of cantrips. I also believe that each starting hand should ideally include either 3 lands plus 1 Mox Diamond or 2 lands (inluding City of Traitors or Ancient Tomb) grating you 3 mana on turn 2 for one of your bombs.
So Serum Powder has made my hands more consistent. Concerning the mid-game it may not be a topdeck, however it is never a dead draw either. It has a positive synergy with armageddon/ravages of war and its mana curve sits right within the trinisphere spectrum.
I'm well aware of its downsides too. Using Serum Powder pre turn 1 gives your opponent an edge considering his strategy - however, this disadvantage only really goes for round one of a mid-sized tournament - afterwards anyone will know you're the stax-dude anyway.

As I realized later, the inclusion of Serum Powder grants you a more versatile SB, making 2-ofs or 3-ofs potential 5-ofs or 6-ofs. This seriously made me consider LotV (Obv. golden against *****, Dredge, Breakfast etc..). As a 2-of or 3-of it doesn't take up too much SB space while the chances of having it in your starting hand are virtually higher than running a playset without Serum Powders.

Currently my Serum Powder(ed) SB looks something like this:

2 LotV
1 Pulse of the Fields
2 Defense Grid
2 Supression Field
1 Exalted Angel
2 Rule of Law
1 Pithing Neelde
1 Duskrider Peregrine
3 Winter Orb (Meta call)


Let me know what you think....

Sidenote:
What are your opinions on...
Static Orb
Rings of Brighthearth

ClearSkies
10-30-2007, 11:39 AM
Something is definally wrong with playing only 2 Leyline of the Void. You should either play zero or 4 copies of it.

Ring of Breathheath is only activated abilities right? What activated abilities do you intend on copying?

badjuju
10-30-2007, 12:41 PM
Serum Powder is an interesting addition. I've noticed the main problem with this deck is that if offers virtually no deck manipulation, tutor, cantrip, draw, etc etc. The only -actual- deck manipulation you get is plains thinning via flagstones. If you choose to run Horizon Canopy, that can help with cantripping as well, but it takes up significant resources to do so (losing a land, for instance, and requiring Crucible of Worlds to truly make the card good). I'd like to see if anyone else has an opinion on engines that the deck could use to get more consistent draws (like Serum Powder) or help cycle through the deck faster. As awesome as the deck plays out, more than half the time it loses because of terrible draws and/or topdecking.

Bane of the Living
11-02-2007, 12:45 PM
Serum Powder is an interesting addition. I've noticed the main problem with this deck is that if offers virtually no deck manipulation, tutor, cantrip, draw, etc etc. The only -actual- deck manipulation you get is plains thinning via flagstones. If you choose to run Horizon Canopy, that can help with cantripping as well, but it takes up significant resources to do so (losing a land, for instance, and requiring Crucible of Worlds to truly make the card good). I'd like to see if anyone else has an opinion on engines that the deck could use to get more consistent draws (like Serum Powder) or help cycle through the deck faster. As awesome as the deck plays out, more than half the time it loses because of terrible draws and/or topdecking.

Bottled Cloister.

Im pretty sure only a hand full of you have tried it if that. Its always working its way into my sb. Its great against control decks that you need the card advantage against and it does wonders against Specters and Hymns as well. Its a great card, dont let it fool you. I find them most usefull to sb in against non aggro when you can take out Prisons ect.

ClearSkies
11-02-2007, 03:45 PM
Bottled Cloister.

Im pretty sure only a hand full of you have tried it if that. Its always working its way into my sb. Its great against control decks that you need the card advantage against and it does wonders against Specters and Hymns as well. Its a great card, dont let it fool you. I find them most usefull to sb in against non aggro when you can take out Prisons ect.

You do this even when you know your opponents are playing some form of artifact destruction or bounce right?

Bane of the Living
11-02-2007, 03:58 PM
You do this even when you know your opponents are playing some form of artifact destruction or bounce right?

Sometimes yes. There arent many decks that are packing real artifact hate at all right now. You might see a couple disenchants out of Landstill or 2-3 grip from Thresh.

I generally wont cast it until I've played all the 'real' cards out of my hand already. Leaving not much to lose if Cloister does go down. Against black decks drop it as soon as possible to avoid getting your hand raped. Only Deadguy has Vindicate.

Nihil Credo
11-02-2007, 07:04 PM
There arent many decks that are packing real artifact hate at all right now. You might see a couple disenchants out of Landstill or 2-3 grip from Thresh.
You're kidding, right? I bet if you tallied all the decklists ever played in the last three months, Krosan Grip would be the #1 most sideboarded card. It's even more common than Goyf in decks that run Green.

Bane of the Living
11-03-2007, 05:48 PM
Just play it out though. You wont be dropping it till your done playing all the other bombs in your hand so chances are your oppoent is gonna Grip one of those cards before getting buried in virtual card advantage from things like Chalice or Crucible. They usually wont have an answer to Cloister and it pulls you back into the game. You'll usually immediately cast what you draw so your not gonna lose much if they do blow it up. Just play it smart.

I think in the pages and pages of stax discussion this has come up dozens of times and Ive said the same thing each time.

f|i[p]
11-04-2007, 12:50 AM
I'm quite disappointed with engineered explosives, and realize that although versatile... Its not easy to ramp it up to 2 always...

Powder kegs are good , but are slower than EE...

At times I just wanted plain old wrath of god and leave the kegs and EE's to the sideboard...


I was wondering if anyone has tested Oblivion ring intensively?

Is it versatile? does it really help with fast aggro(since this slot used to be wrath of god in the original build)?

b4r0n
11-04-2007, 10:40 AM
Kegs have been really good for me. The amount of turns it takes isn't usually an issue in this deck, since you can stall your opponent out until you're ready to pop it. I've also found it to be more versatile than EE since you can adjust it as needed to hit a wider range of casting costs. For example, dropping it early against something like Threshold and keeping it at 1 will hit any Geese that they drop, but you can also ramp it up to 2 and take out a Goyf as needed.

Oblivion Ring is awesome. It's alright against fast aggro (Chalice, Trinisphere, and Ghostly Prison are often better), but it can be relevant in slowing down their clock by taking out Tarmogoyfs or Jittes. It gives the deck some extremely versatile spot removal, which it's been sorely lacking, allowing the deck to slow down opponents even more until you can just lock them out and win.

Bane of the Living
11-06-2007, 02:13 PM
This is the list I took to the Mana Leak day 2.

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitor
2 Crytal Vein
1 Wasteland
4 Flagstones of Trokair
6 Plains
4 Mishras Factory
4 Mox Diamond
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

4 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
4 Crucible of the Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives

SB
1 Wasteland
3 Glowrider
2 Sphere of Law
3 Winter Orb
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Aura of Silence
3 Pithing Needle

Round One
Matt playing Breakfast

Matt beats me everytime we play which is always round one. He normally plays Thresh so this time Im excited to see him. I didnt take any notes for game one but I remember casting a Chalice for one turn one and had it resolve. He ends up playing a Lim Duals and pays a bunch of life to find an echoing truth. I also have 2x Trinispheres and a Ghostly Prison out. To my surprise he bounces the Chalice. He mustve had combo parts in hand (needing to therapy them). He takes his turn and taps out to play a Shaman en Kor. On my turn I drop a Chalice for two. He scoops.

Game two I drop something like 3sphere or Chalice and he Forces it. I drop a couple more cards and he plays Deed. I dont have an O ring for it and he nukes my board. At this point I geddon him and he recovers enough to drop goyf x2 and kill me with them.

Game three goes similar to game two. I get wiped by deed and he wins through combo. I remember making some kind of mistake this game since I let him drop one combo guy then another the next turn. I shouldve Geddoned or something.

0-1, 1-2

Round Two Alix Hatfield playing Black Thresh

Im really hoping hes not playing Breakfast too, although its a decent matchup I dont have Suppression Fields or Tormods Crypt today.

He opens with a Ponder then turn two Thoughtsieze. I dont remember what he takes but it didnt matter very much as I replace my play with Trinisphere. He has no answer to it and I make short work of him from there. I get half a dozen lock pieces down from there before he scoops to Magus.

Game two he plays a Mongoose and I play an explosives for one. He plays 3-4 Ponders and smacks me for 1-3 a turn while I let explosives sit there. I figure there are more geese were that comes from and I think I was right. I eventually nuke his goose Geddon a couple times, I play CotV I think for two and I have double Ghostly Prison. I see a Sea Drake get flashed about but he didnt play it. He wouldve been pretty sad to get it ORinged.

1-1, 3-2

Round Three
Some guy who wasnt Bryant playing TES

I have no idea what hes playing but I keep a hand with turn one Chalice turn two 3sphere. I drop a mox and city of traitors into a Chalice. He plays a City of Brass and I play a 3sphere. He plays another City, rfg's a SSG and pays 3 for a Chrome Mox. On my turn I Oring the mox. LOL. It ends after I geddon him with Crucible and 3sphere out.

Game two he plays nothing but a land turn one. All I needed was one turn.
On my turn one I drop an Ancient Tomb and Mox up a Glowrider. Cant Shattering Spree that. I get him to 6 before I play a Magus and finally see a factory. Along the way I drop Chalice, 3sphere, Geddon, While he Shattering Sprees pointlessly.

2-1, 5-2

Round 4 Ewokslayer playing Survival
I dont remember too much from these games. He plays Magus of the Moon and I kinda diddle myself with Crucible and other nonsense cards. I get Smokestack going but need to ramp it to two so I wouldnt die to wiener beats. He plays BoP's and Witnesses to keep perms out long enough to kill me.

Game two I have a really amazing hand. I play a turn one Crucible, he plays a BoP. Turn two I have the choice to play an Aura of Silence or Smokestack. I know Im fucked if SotF gets online so I play Aura. He drops Magus on his turn. I play the Smokestack. He basically does the same as the last game and drops goyfs and witnesses till I need to ramp stacks to two. It comes down to me at one life and two smokestacks out. One at 2 one at 1. I have a magus out. He takes his turn, pays for his guys, moves a +1/+1 counter from his Spike Feeder to his BoP and sacs the rest of his board. I die to the bird. That throws off the rest of the day for me.

2-2, 5-4

Round 5 Brandon playing 4c Thresh.

This should be a really good game for me but he seems to have answers for everything. Im manascrewed and need to walk into a Daze, he gets crazy goyfs out and Needles Engineered Explosives. I have one in hand I didnt get to drop yet and drew into the only other dead card in the deck (EE).

Game two he forces my turn one Crucible which wouldve let my 3x Factories go all the way. I still beat him down to 1 with them Oringing an Isochron Scepter imprinted with AK.

Game three I play a Winter Orb which helps me out but he Forces a key Smokestackand I have nothing else to play for turns. He needles Wasteland and plays a Goyf. He kills me with it while I draw nothing. When I do he Ancient Grudges it. I cant believe I lose this matchup when its so good for me already. He even kept Daze and COUNTERBALANCE in against me. WTF?!?!

2-3, 5-6

Round Six Jason playing W/U Landstill.

Game one lasts about 30 minutes. I play a turn one Chalice and then we trade threats for counterspells for almost forever I get a Crucible out and so does he. We clash Wastelands and Factories for a long time till I OblivionRing his Crucible and I gain tons of advantage over the few next turns.

Game two I get completely mana screwed and he plays a Meddling Mage naming Smokestack. My next draw is Smokestack. He kills me with the mage.

Game three I get something Forced, something Counterspelled. Then he plays 3 mages one turn after another naming Trinisphere, Smokestack, and Armageddon. I draw all these cards the freakin turns after he names them. Its like he had psychic powers or something.

He's a nice guy, he gives me one of the three packs he wins in top16.

2-4, 6-8

Landstill and Survival are still really bad matchups for the deck. Aside from that I just couldnt draw a Magus or Smokestack when I had people locked down for turns and turns. Oblivion Ring was amazing. The only changes I would make to the deck would probably be incorperating Wrath of God back to the maindeck or sideboard. I pretty much lost to goyfs all day.

Machinus
11-06-2007, 02:29 PM
Thanks for the report. I watched you play a few times during the day. Your draws after Meddling Mages were very unlucky.

I think oblivion ring is interesting, but I am not sure it's best with smokestack. I think smokestack and prison #4 are important cards.

Bane of the Living
11-06-2007, 02:58 PM
Prison hasnt been as good as it used to be when Goblins were all over the place. Now that asshole tarmagoyf is around its too easy to pay 2 to deal you 6 a turn.

My favorite card in the deck is now Oblivion Ring. It removes survival of the fittest, Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg, Dark Confidants, Jitte, Tarmogoyf, Crucible of the Worlds, and most importantly its a way to clear Aether Vial without being Pithing Needled. Its almost like extra Smokestacks that let you can choose what your nuking.

Id also like to make another note on the keg vs EE war. I forgot to make this comment about my game against Landstill but in game two I opened with a turn one (mox, plains) Explosives for two. This stopped Standstill cold. Keg cant hit enchantments.

Oh holy shit... ORing on Pernicious Deed is so key to those matchups. No decks can play deed and activate it for a relevant amount the same turn. The Breakfast player blew his Deed's for 0 both times taking out my Moxen, EE's, and CotV's. He knew I was packing rings and was an amazing player.

Blaukreuz
12-02-2007, 04:22 PM
quite interesting deck.

What matchup-percentages would you experienced guys guess against the established legacy decks?

Nihil Credo
12-02-2007, 05:00 PM
The Breakfast player blew his Deed's for 0 both times taking out my Moxen, EE's, and CotV's. He knew I was packing rings and was an amazing player.
Did losing the Moxes severely cripple your spellcasting ability? Because if not, it seems to me the best play would have been to just pass and wait. Either you play a Ring (he blows up the Deed in response, taking care of the enchantment as well) or you don't (he untaps and clears the board).

The Wes
12-02-2007, 05:26 PM
I'm not sure on the matchup percentages, but I can tell you what decks that I never want to see on the other side of the table. The two decks that I pretty much never want to play against are Survival and Mono U control. I've improved my game against control, but I just can't seem to take Survival.

Gambit
12-02-2007, 10:04 PM
I piloted this list to a 2nd place finish out of 52 in San Diego this weekend. I'll try to get a report up soon.

Artifacts
4x Trinisphere
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Smokestack
4x Mox Diamond

Enchantments
4x Ghostly Prison

Spells
4x Armageddon

Creatures
2x Exalted Angel
4x Magus of the Tabernacle

Lands
4x Flagsontes of Trokair
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Mishra's Factory
2x Wasteland
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
8x Plains

Sideboard
3x Pithing Needle
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Supression Field
3x Oblivion Ring
2x Jotun Grunt
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Filipinho
12-03-2007, 09:20 AM
My list looks closer to yours, but it's a little more controlish:
-1x Tabernacle
-1x Mishra's Factory
-1x Plains
-2x Exalted Angel

+3x Powder Keg
+2x Wasteland
( I don't own a Tabernacle...)

Powder Keg has saved me a lot.

I think Pithing Needle and Suppression Field in the SB is redundant.

The cards I consider to the SB are:

Oblivion Ring
Suppression Field
Defense Grid
Rule of Law
Sphere of Law
Winter Orb

My SB is like this:
4x Defense Grid
3x Rule of Law
3x Sphere of Law
3x Suppression Field
2x Seal of Cleasing


Congratulations!
It's good to see Angel Stax doing well.

The Wes
12-03-2007, 09:51 AM
Why the lack of O. Rings main? I've found them pretty usefull in most important matchups.

Also, for Filipinho, do you find the lack of win conditions to hurt you? With only 4 magus and 2 mishra's how long do your matches usually take?

Filipinho
12-03-2007, 11:15 AM
A while.
But most times they just concede when I have a magus a trinisphere and they don't have lands.

I like Powder Keg over Oblivion Ring. Firstly, it's great vs. zombie and goblin tokens, secondly, it's great vs. mongoose and aggro over all.

Sunshine-128
12-04-2007, 05:21 PM
Hi all! I'm an italian user and I introduced this deck in the EternalFormat Community of www.tipo1.it's forum.
Also we, like you, passed from the list with Suppression Fields and Tangle Wires to a list more focused on denial strategy using Armageddon and Magus of the Tabernacle.
I think we have to use Oblivion Ring maindeck, to remedy many threats of the format.
The last decklist posted has a conformation of the manabase wrong, imho; we tried to use Horizon Canopy to obviate the "problem of not-drawing".
A conformation very solid we're arrived is:
6 Plains [obv to keep the recursion of enemy's Wasteland + Crucible]
4 Flagstones of Trokair [no comments ^^]
4 Wasteland [very optimized in this period]
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
2 Horizon Canopy.

I think this ad an enough perfect manabase. :)

Sorry for the bad english, M.

ClearSkies
12-04-2007, 10:16 PM
Not even 1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale? That is land is amazing in every way, including the price tag on it!

Okay, it doesn't really produce mana though...
If you aren't running it, and your reason isn't about money, I would like to know why not?

Sunshine-128
12-05-2007, 09:48 AM
Not even 1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale? That is land is amazing in every way, including the price tag on it!

Okay, it doesn't really produce mana though...
If you aren't running it, and your reason isn't about money, I would like to know why not?
I think 4x Magus of the Tabernacle and 4x Armageddon are extremely sufficient to implement our strategy. :wink:

The Wes
12-05-2007, 10:26 AM
I've found it not to be though. There have been many times when I was able to pull out a win when I otherwise wouldn't be able to being able to armageddon then drop the Taby land. Having 8 mana to armageddon then drop magus is much harder to do. While the deck can do well without the taby land, I find it to work much better with 1-2 copies.

Bane of the Living
12-05-2007, 04:20 PM
Ive always run a single copy of old school Taber. Its important if you expect to see Empty the Warrens since Magus can come online too late. I would run a second in the board if I owned it.

Madmaniac21
12-05-2007, 04:56 PM
I'm curious to hear why no one runs Tangle Wire. From having played an inordinate amount of Stax in Vintage, Tangle Wire is best when the format cannot win at instant speed/combo out. There is very little combo in the current metgame, with almost every deck relying on casting sorcery speed spells (such as creatures) on their turns in order to win.

Is it because pf the prevalence of Aether Vial? Cause I really believe that after 3spheres, tangle wire would do the next best job in legacy.

Bane of the Living
12-05-2007, 05:11 PM
I'm curious to hear why no one runs Tangle Wire. From having played an inordinate amount of Stax in Vintage, Tangle Wire is best when the format cannot win at instant speed/combo out. There is very little combo in the current metgame, with almost every deck relying on casting sorcery speed spells (such as creatures) on their turns in order to win.

Is it because pf the prevalence of Aether Vial? Cause I really believe that after 3spheres, tangle wire would do the next best job in legacy.

Theres not much of a way to capitalize off the Wire effects. Unlike Vintage we're not running a Goblin Welder to keep abusing it and evading it. Aether Vial is a huge reason. Goblins can run right through a Tangle Wire. Threshold can just cast their cantrips on upkeep and such. I was never impressed with Tangle Wires in the deck. Magus of the Tabernacle pretty much took its place in my build.

Sunshine-128
12-06-2007, 06:18 PM
I've found it not to be though. There have been many times when I was able to pull out a win when I otherwise wouldn't be able to being able to armageddon then drop the Taby land. Having 8 mana to armageddon then drop magus is much harder to do. While the deck can do well without the taby land, I find it to work much better with 1-2 copies.
I don't think you need 8 mana to play Magus and Armageddon.
You could play them in succession, why not?

@ Madmaniac21: i'm playing Tangle Wire. :wink:

The Wes
12-07-2007, 10:20 AM
Oh, you could deffinately play them in succession. I'm just saying that many times being able to armageddon and then drop the taby land has won me games that I probably couldn't have won any other way. So many times with this deck I end up finally stabilizing and winning at a very low life total so being able to wipe their board of creatues (and many times all their permanents) by armageddoning and then dropping the taby land has been a life saver.

Also, what does everyone think of the stax ideas that came out of worlds. Like running 8 armageddon effects or splashing blue mana for Pendrell Mists? Just curious.

Windux
12-10-2007, 04:36 AM
I just want to post the following deck:


Osamu Fujita
2007 Worlds, Legacy


Main Deck

61 cards
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Dust Bowl
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Mishra's Factory
3 Plains
2 Tundra
3 Wasteland
26 lands


4 Armageddon
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
1 Pendrell Mists
1 Pithing Needle
3 Propaganda
3 Ravages of War
1 Smokestack
2 Talisman of Progress
4 Trinisphere
35 other spells


Sideboard

1 Aura of Silence
3 Exalted Angel
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Pithing Needle
1 Rule of Law
1 Sphere of Law
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
15 sideboard cards

4 Enlightened with Pendrel Mists and no Magi.
Winoption = Factory + Academy Ruins against decking.
7 Armageddons, 7 Ghostly Prison
4 blue sources (without Flagstones)

This seems more like an "You can't attack and don't have lands" version and not like a real stacks imo :)

Filipinho
12-10-2007, 10:24 AM
I agree. But I think this versions shows two things:

1st: a blue splash can be interesting. Pendrell Mists and Propaganda are solid additions.

2nd: Dustbowl + Flagstones of Trokair can be an interesting combo.

I don't like the list also, but I think we can learn something from it.

He runs 8x blue sources: 4x Mox Diamond, 2x Talisman of Progress, 2x Tundra

Slayer001
12-10-2007, 10:48 AM
I don't know if its mentioned yet but seismic assault and life from the loam do pretty much damage also

largebrandon
12-10-2007, 10:53 AM
I don't know if its mentioned yet but seismic assault and life from the loam do pretty much damage also

That's THREE RED MANA!! That is significant in a mostly artifact deck. Plus, if you add LftL, that would be a four colour stax - stax don't play dat way.

Joon
12-10-2007, 11:09 AM
Do you really think that splashing blue is the right move? And I'd like to know what you're cutting for blue...? Angel? And after that (The cutting of Angel gives you 1-3 slots)? Interesting idea, though.

Nihil Credo
12-10-2007, 11:10 AM
I'm not a big fan of that deck, because without Chalice it suffers when facing Tendrils or burn spells. However, I love how he plans to win by scoopage in G1 and by Angel beats postboard.

The Wes
12-10-2007, 11:20 AM
Yeah, the lack of Chalice seems to really hurt against thresh also. I like being able to shut down +20 cards in their deck with one spell. If you were going to splash a color to white, seems like there might be better colors to do it with.

tpnp
12-10-2007, 12:14 PM
Maybe this thought deserves a new thread entirely...but what about a heavy blue commitment with a splash for Armageddon/Magus? Propaganda can replace Ghostly Prison easily, and now you have access to FoF, Thirst, Academy Ruins (technically, we already had access to this via mana from Mox Diamonds), etc...

Thoughts?

Filipinho
12-10-2007, 01:02 PM
I was considering a light blue splash, not the other way around. Playing only 4x blue cards with 8x blue sources.
Here's the list I'll begin testing when I get the blue cards, on Wednesday probably:

1x Academy Ruins
2x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Flagstones of Trokair
4x Tundra
2x Plains
4x Mox Diamond
4x Crucible of Worlds
2x Pendrell Mists
4x Magus of the Tabernacle
2x Propaganda
4x Ghostly Prison
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
3x Smokestack
4x Armageddon

Slayer001
12-10-2007, 03:37 PM
That's THREE RED MANA!! That is significant in a mostly artifact deck. Plus, if you add LftL, that would be a four colour stax - stax don't play dat way.

I don't know what or how its played, that you can decide yourself. But I only saw it and it did hurt alot. 3 red mana is not that hard. you use fetch and doublelands and mox diamond. and he also played terravore and armageddon. it hurts alot if you ask me. I think it didn't ran blue. so that makes WRG only three colours. but I played aggro I like to mention that also without counters. but it was fun how it played

largebrandon
12-11-2007, 07:24 PM
What about Planeswalkers in the deck? Like the White one? Doesn't get hurt by your creature control and can gain you life and get you a serra avatar!

Nihil Credo
12-11-2007, 09:06 PM
Unless you run Wrath of God, Exalted Angel does Ajani's job so much better.

Sanguine Voyeur
12-11-2007, 09:28 PM
Exalted Angel; Comes down [attacking] on turn two, can trade with 'goyf, helps when you're winning, helps when you're losing, breaks stalemates.

Goldmane; Comes down on turn two [barring double Mox], stalls a little worse then Angel, can pump Factories, potentially faster win, only dies to Vindicate, helps when you're winning, iffy when you're losing, breaks stalemates.

The key difference is when you are losing, and this is when it's most important. Although if Goldmane hits, it will probably stay, as opposed to a creatures in a meta made to deal with Tarmogoyf.

kabal
12-14-2007, 11:15 AM
What matches do you typically board in Suppression Field (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/31.html)?

Windux
12-14-2007, 11:59 AM
Loam-Engine, CephFast, maybe even NQG if they play much Fetchlands and 3+ colors (if you need to ;) )

pantos
12-17-2007, 10:02 PM
I played Armageddon Stax at the GP Stuttgart Legacy side event, made 6th place out of 72 with it.

Here's the list i played:

// Lands
6 [PT] Plains (3)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle

// Spells
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [PT] Armageddon
3 [US] Smokestack
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
2 [UD] Powder Keg

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
SB: 4 [RAV] Suppression Field
SB: 4 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 4 [LE] Glowrider
SB: 2 [9E] Defense Grid


I don't remember every detail, so here's just a short description of my matchups:

1st round: Fish 0:2
No luck with this one... I don't remember much, but in one game i've drawn too much lands, in the other one he played Meddling Mage naming Armageddon, sadly this was my topdeck the next two rounds.

2nd round: Iggy Pop 2:0
No problems here. First round Trinisphere, followed by some other stuff, then Armageddon, second turn two Glowriders brought him quickly to 0 life.

3rd round: Pikula 2:1
That was a hard one. First game I had to mulligan to 5 cards, was manascrewed in the beginning, and lost pretty fast. In the second game, I had a good start and locked him. The third one was close, he beated me to 2 life with his Grunt, Confidant and Cursed Scroll, until I drew Ghostly Prison, Oblivion Ring and Armageddon.

4th round: Rb Goblins 2:0
In both games, he had a bad start, the first one was pretty close, though. He managed to beat me to 1 until i finally locked him.

5th round: Landstill 0:2
I don't like Deed :frown: It was winnable, but I didn't draw the right cards at the right time. Oblivion Ring, Aura of Silence, or even Armageddon would have helped.

6th round: Life Combo 2:0
I don't know why, but in the first game, he had his Combo in turn 3 and was able to activate it, but he didn't. After he sacced parts of his combo to my Smokestack, I thought he just didn't realize it. Perhaps a blackout or something. Game two I played turn one Supression Field, which he wasn't able to handle.

7th round: Gay/r 2:1
First game: Trinisphere + Crucible + Wasteland = Win
Second game, I got a Magus out, but he had Cloud of Faeries und Looter Il-Kor. Then I got totally mana flooded and lost the damage race.
Third Game was fun to play. It was not easy, but after I resolved a Trinisphere, things went good for me.

8th round: TES 2:0
He startet two times, and played only a land in his first turns. I had a first turn Chalice for 0 and Trinisphere in the first game, and a turn two Glowrider in the second one.


I took a lot of mulligans, but I guess that is normal for this deck.
Another white Stax deck made 5th, but I don't know anything about it.

And here's a list of the top 8, as far as i know it's correct:

Top8 out of 72 players after 8 rounds:
1. Belcher
2. Ichorid
3. 4c Landstill
4. unknown to me
5. White Stax
6. White Stax
7. Affinity
8. NQG/w

ImAChampion
12-19-2007, 01:47 PM
I understand that this isn't a typical STAX list because...well it lacks Smokestack but this was the list that interested me most out of Worlds. I wanted to get your opinions on the deck. I have it proxied up and have tested it quite a bit and it is really good.

Lands: 27
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Mishra's Factory
5 Plains
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Wasteland

Creatures: 7
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Exaulted Angel

Spells: 26
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War
2 Moat

Sideboard: 15
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pithing Needle
3 Disenchant
4 Suppression Field

f|i[p]
12-20-2007, 11:28 PM
Lands: 27
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Mishra's Factory
5 Plains
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Wasteland

Creatures: 7
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Exaulted Angel

Spells: 26
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War
2 Moat

Sideboard: 15
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pithing Needle
3 Disenchant
4 Suppression Field

I was actually curious about this build as well. But I think this deck is more aggressive than the regular stax list. It uses the lock pieces as early disruption, cast an angel, then seal it with armageddon. This deck plays something like the white 5/3 version that just opts for more lock pieces. I was actually thinking that he could have at least, left the smokestacks on the sideboard.

Its interesting and I'm curious how it fared against other decks at worlds.

meanee
12-21-2007, 04:18 AM
Actually this deck went 5-0 in the legacy part of worlds. It was piloted by my teammate Anton Lunau, and he conceede his last round after going 4-0, because his opponent still had a chance to win some dough, while Anton did not.

It is a very good deck, and f|i[p] says it is more aggressive than many other builds. I think it all comes down to which kill-condition you want - Exalted Angel or Smokestack.

Also, moat is incredibly good...

- meanee

Nihil Credo
12-21-2007, 06:47 AM
While playing Moat over Smokestack seems a very viable idea to me (and I've always loved Angel and could never see cutting it anyway), I find it weird to see it paired with 4 Wastelands and 2 Tabernacles. Such an intensive denial/taxing package has much more synergy with the 'Stax than with the Moat.

ImAChampion
12-21-2007, 10:05 AM
My favorite plays are:

Against Aggro
Turn 1: Mox Diamond + Ancient Tomb + Trinisphere
Turn 2: Tabernacle + Ghostly Prison

Against Everything else
Turn 1; Mox Diamond + Ancient Tomb + Trinisphere
Turn 2: Wasteland + Crucible of Worlds

This deck is awesome. I am undecided whether I like Moat or Smokestacks. I have never really had a need for Moat yet. Usually I can lock someone out with multiple Ghostly Prisons and taxing them with Tabernacle or Magus. Tangle Wire would probably be more effective in this deck than Moat or Smokestacks in the current environment...thoughts? If you are on the play with a turn 1 Trinisphere and you drop Tangle Wire on turn 3 you pretty much get 5 turns of an empty board from your opponent.

Madmaniac21
12-21-2007, 11:30 AM
Has anyone considered adding Sensei's Top to their list?

Ray has found a lot of success with it in his T1 Staxless stax list.

Same as with Uba Stax, the prison archetype really shines when it has any form of draw, so that it can find the lock pieces it needs.

Fitting in some form of draw is what will help push this deck up a notch.

ImAChampion
12-21-2007, 12:08 PM
Has anyone considered adding Sensei's Top to their list?

Ray has found a lot of success with it in his T1 Staxless stax list.

Same as with Uba Stax, the prison archetype really shines when it has any form of draw, so that it can find the lock pieces it needs.

Fitting in some form of draw is what will help push this deck up a notch.What would you suggest removing in favor of the Top? Basically...what do you think the top is better/more important than in the deck?

ClearSkies
12-21-2007, 12:12 PM
My favorite plays are:

Against Aggro
Turn 1: Mox Diamond + Ancient Tomb + Trinisphere
Turn 2: Tabernacle + Ghostly Prison

Against Everything else
Turn 1; Mox Diamond + Ancient Tomb + Trinisphere
Turn 2: Wasteland + Crucible of Worlds

Hold on a second...
Why not 1st Turn: Trinisphere
2nd Turn: Smokestack
3rd Turn: Crucible of the Worlds

That is basically a complete lock for practically all the decks except the ones that run Spirit Guides (maybe)



This deck is awesome. I am undecided whether I like Moat or Smokestacks. I have never really had a need for Moat yet. Usually I can lock someone out with multiple Ghostly Prisons and taxing them with Tabernacle or Magus. Tangle Wire would probably be more effective in this deck than Moat or Smokestacks in the current environment...thoughts? If you are on the play with a turn 1 Trinisphere and you drop Tangle Wire on turn 3 you pretty much get 5 turns of an empty board from your opponent.

Yea, but as good as 1st Trinisphere sounds, it isn't something the deck can easily rely on. Tangle Wire can be good, and can be bad depending on situations though.

Gambit
12-21-2007, 12:14 PM
I would love to have SDT in the list; however, while chalice is in here I don't think it's a reality, as often you are playing turn 1 chalice at 1. I have had pithing needles that I sided in sit dead in my hand because of this and don't think the dis-synergy maindeck is worthwhile. So, I guess the question is: does this deck need chalice, my answer is yup. This is one of the appeals of a green splash, sylvan library, but then your mana can turn to shit.

ImAChampion
12-21-2007, 12:16 PM
Hold on a second...
Why not 1st Turn: Trinisphere
2nd Turn: Smokestack
3rd Turn: Crucible of the Worlds

That is basically a complete lock for practically all the decks except the ones that run Spirit Guides (maybe)Because the deck I am playing doesn't run Smokestacks. :tongue: I put together the list from worlds to test it out. I am still rather new to this deck style.

Yea, but as good as 1st Trinisphere sounds, it isn't something the deck can easily rely on. Tangle Wire can be good, and can be bad depending on situations though.Makes sense.

Sanguine Voyeur
12-21-2007, 12:27 PM
If you really want more card draw, you could use Horizon Canopy as a recurring cantrip that also opens up green. Green brings Sylvan Library for more card selection, Tarmogoyf for winning, and sideboard Choke for the Landstill matchup.

kabal
12-21-2007, 01:15 PM
What are the optimal Stax board look like when you want to drop Smokestacks?

What are the hands that are not necessarily optimal, but could be workable?

What is the reason for not using Tanglewire? Is there just not a enough room?

What are the sideboarding strategies?

Whit3 Ghost
12-21-2007, 01:30 PM
What is the reason for not using Tanglewire? Is there just not a enough room?

Tanglewire is awful, and ends up locking you down more then your opponent.

Nihil Credo
12-21-2007, 02:42 PM
What are the optimal Stax board look like when you want to drop Smokestacks?

Make sure you have something good for the control matchup. Extra Armageddons are nice, and so are Suppression Fields. Of course, you could still SB the Stacks... they're quite nice in the Thresh matchup.


What are the hands that are not necessarily optimal, but could be workable?

Not exactly an answerable question... in general, it's better to have threat-light hands than mana-light ones. Oh, and turn 2 Angel flip is only OK postboard, especially if they didn't see it in game 1.


What is the reason for not using Tanglewire? Is there just not a enough room?

Tanglewire is a triple Fog or so. It's only worth it when you really really need to buy time. With more Tarmogoyfs and less Goblins running amok, I think Oblivion Ring is just a better time-buyer.


What are the sideboarding strategies?

Most of the time some of your disruption will be useless or mediocre (usually Chalice, Ghostly Prison, or Trinisphere). I rarely have trouble figuring what to SB out, but sometimes you have to hope you've got something relevant to SB in. Oblivion Ring is good because it's practically never dead.

Madmaniac21
12-21-2007, 02:50 PM
What would you suggest removing in favor of the Top? Basically...what do you think the top is better/more important than in the deck?

I'm trying to figure that out. In my T1 Uba list it ended up taking the place of my 2x metagame slot.

The more I look at the MD list, the more I think that Chalice should possibly be a sideboard card. If the plan (with 4x 3spheres) is to drop one and then nuke lands, countering all spells with CC=0,1, or 2 doesn't really matter if they can't cast anything anyways.

"Tanglewire is awful, and ends up locking you down more then your opponent."

This is simple a misunderstanding of how tangle wire works. It is absolutely amazing if your opponents have to play permanents to win the game - as everyone does in t1.5

"Tanglewire is a triple Fog or so. It's only worth it when you really really need to buy time. With more Tarmogoyfs and less Goblins running amok, I think Oblivion Ring is just a better time-buyer."

While goyf makes Oring better, it makes tanglewire better too. If your opponents' plan is to drop a couple lands and a goyf, then wire is better, because you'll be locking down their lands as well, whereas with goblins they had infy more permanents, making wire worse at stopping the threats you wanted it to.

I'm currently messing around with a list without Smokestack. I might end up putting it in the CANG forum.

Whit3 Ghost
12-21-2007, 03:31 PM
"Tanglewire is awful, and ends up locking you down more then your opponent."

This is simple a misunderstanding of how tangle wire works. It is absolutely amazing if your opponents have to play permanents to win the game - as everyone does in t1.5

If a deck can get 3-4 permanents by turn 2, you will most likely be far more hampered by your own Wire then they will. If one of those permanents is a goyf, you will be down 5-10 life behind, someplace you simply don't want to be. If you're metagame is all control, there's better choices then wire anyway.

f|i[p]
12-21-2007, 11:30 PM
If a deck can get 3-4 permanents by turn 2, you will most likely be far more hampered by your own Wire then they will. If one of those permanents is a goyf, you will be down 5-10 life behind, someplace you simply don't want to be. If you're metagame is all control, there's better choices then wire anyway.

This is true regarding tangle wire, if they put permanents faster than you do. Tangle wire becomes useless. Also, we never really put as much permanents down as the vintage stax lists, I think thats one of the other reasons tangle wires work for vintage stax. And yes I have played with tangle wires and they are good but not as good as the other pieces, so most of the time I wished they were another card when I saw them in my hand.

As for chalice, I dont think I will ever take it off the main. Chalice at 1 just hurts so many decks. Chalice, and trinispheres I think would be the best 1st or 2nd turn plays.

As for the staxless list, angel is a good beater indeed, but if you really think about it, smokestack has synergy with the whole deck and angel does not.But its really a choice of preference,and your win condition. I still prefer having 2-3 angels and 4 smokestacks main and leave the rest of the angels in my sideboard.


The only problem I see with this deck is draw.And at times synergy issues. This deck relies on synergy too much, lock pieces that wont be able work at its best alone hence it relies on other lock pieces as well. Draw spells or tutors would be great and would be a big help fixing the issues I see in the deck. Thus aggressive mulligan is really important.

Silverdragon
12-22-2007, 07:44 PM
Just a quick post to let you guys know. The last monthly Legacy tournament in Speyer was this Saturday and we had 42 players. Of those 42 five played Stax. I finished 10th and my friend Joachim finished 3rd after swiss, losing in the quarterfinals of Top8 against a homebrew Survival variant but winning the loser bracket to end in 5th place.
Again a very short report on my matches (maybe I'm confusing the order of the matches because my notes are on loose pieces of paper this time):
Round 1 against Cephalid Breakfast; lose 0-2 (Game 1 I get beaten by a Tarmogoyf because I decided to play turn 2 Chalice instead of Trinisphere in fear of Daze; Game 2 a timely Disenchant on my lone Ghostly Prison ensures that Stern Proctor plus a Nomads can attack and kill me before I find anything relevant again)
Round 2 against Burn; win 2-0 (Game 1 I get the almost-god draw with 2nd turn Trinisphere, 3rd turn Smokestack, 4th turn Crucible; Game 2 I get a morph when I'm at 4 life with 2 Plains 1 Ancient Tomb in play. He's in topdeck mode, draws Magma Jet and aims it at me, hoping to stop me from unmorphing the Angel. Lucky for me I have the City of Traitors already in hand, unmorph Angel and go up to 6 again. Geddon follows and that's game.)
Round 3 against Ubgr Landstill; lose 0-2 (Words cannot describe the pain I suffered. Game 1 went on for 42 minutes because after some Deed and Armageddon action we were both at 3 lands and I had Wasteland + Crucible. However he also had Loam and so I continually tried to keep him off mana for Deed and he continually used Loam to refill his hand, beating with Factory when he did not need to cast Loam. I also had a Trinisphere so as soon as I draw Armageddon I can play a Tomb or City and get him down to 0 mana and keep him from ever doing anything again thanks to Wasteland, decking him in the end. The bad thing with this plan was that the last 3 Armageddons I had in the deck were actually cards number 1-3 from bottom. In hindsight there was one situation that cost me the game and that was when he had only 2 fetchlands and I decided to waste a fetchland instead of destroying the first fetched dual in response to the second fetch when he'd go to get 3 mana; Game 2 I had Defense Grid and Trinisphere but only a Mox and a City of Traitors. First a Wasteland hit my City and shortly thereafter a Deed nuked my Mox so I conceded.)
Round 4 against Ichorid; win 2-0 (Nothing much to say here. Game 1 Trinisphere + Ghostly Prison stall him enough for an Angel to ride it home; Game 2 I get Trinisphere, Chalice @1 and @2, double Ghostly Prison and Crucible + Wasteland within the first few turns after he has to take a mulligan down to 5. I wait some time for a Magus to show up and after a few swings my opponent asks the judge about the interaction of Ray of Revelation with Chalice and Trinisphere. Turns out he needs to get to 3 mana to flash it back and then it still gets countered by Chalice @2... after the ruling he immediately concedes.)
Round 5 against Affinity; win 2-0 (Game 1 he has a slow start with only Ornithopter and Frogmite in the first few turns. I can morph an Angel on turn 2 or 3 and unmorph her the following turn. A Chalice @2 ensures that there'll be no surprise Shrapnel Blasts or Cranial Platings to kill the lady so we quickly finish game 1; Game 2 my opponent has Seal of Primordium and Engineered Explosives against my lock pieces but a 3rd turn Magus of the Tabernacle slows him down considerably so I find the time to get more mana onto the table and hardcast my Angel who again quickly finishes the game.)
Round 6 against TES; win 2-0 (I get a bit lucky here as my opponent is not too serious anymore [maybe exhausted, frustrated, I don't know] and after winning the die roll decides that he wants to draw first, meaning I get to play first even though I lost the die roll. Game 1 I resolve a turn 2 3Sphere, waste a land and after I unmorph Angel he reaches for his sideboard; Game 2 is more of the same except he uses Shattering Spree to deal with my Chalice @1. However a Trinisphere immediately follows and this time an Aven Mindcensor wraps it up.)
In the end the Breakfast player I faced in round 1 won the whole tournament. I think Top8 decklists and a metagame breakdown will be online soon.
Oh and I was talking to Joachim after the tournament and he said that the most important thing for him during the whole tournament was taking agressive mulligans with the deck so learning how to mulligan with it is certainly a very important part to being successful with it.

f|i[p]
12-22-2007, 08:45 PM
@silverdragon

Congrats on the tourney.

At my metagame there is no Cephalid breakfast(at least none yet for the moment). Is our match up that bad?

@Aven Mindcensor

I don't really think the Mindcensor is needed, but Im always open to improvements and innovations from people who get to test the deck more often.

How did aven Mindcensor go for you? Is the mindcensors addition mainly for fetch land and tutor disruption?

Silverdragon
12-23-2007, 05:40 AM
Some more details.
My list for the tournament was
4 Armageddon
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Exalted Angel
2 Smokestack
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
8 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

SB
4 Defense Grid
4 Suppression Field
3 Duskrider Peregrine
3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Oblivion Ring

The maindeck Ghost Quarter was nice. I was paired against 5 decks that did not have a single basic land so it worked as an additional Wasteland in many situations. It even helped me win a game against Burn where I used it on my Flagstones to get 2 Plains (so I was able to unmorph Exalted).
The 2/2 split of Smokestacks and Oblivion Rings will most likely stay that way. Smokestack is still awesome in the deck but even with only 2 I generally got it when I needed it.
5 Waste effects plus Crucible helped to keep the board low on permanents even without Smokestack and also helped alleviate the absence of a 5th Armageddon effect.
There were situations when Oblivion Ring was a dead card but in my matches against Cephalid Breakfast and Affinity I was hoping to topdeck some. I still think they are really good against Threshold, Survival and lots of problematic cards like Crucible so I'll keep them in for now.
Tabernacle was a last minute addition because I expected some players to bring Belcher (after its 8-0 performance at Stuttgart) and without Pithing Needle in my deck I at least wanted additional ways to deal with EtW Tokens.
The sideboard was experimental. I was looking for unconventional ways to beat Landstill and Survival (when I explained my choices I always said "Deed is my worst matchup"). Duskrider Peregrine again shines as he can't be hit with Shriekmaw, flies over Tarmogoyf and manlands and he costs a whopping 6 mana so it is really hard to hit him with Deed. Aven Mindcensor also flies, can hit at any moment thanks to flash (making it riskier for Landstill to tap out) and obviously hoses Survival quite a bit.
Normally the plan is to board in lots of critters when my opponent boards out his removal and go the Stompy plan with Chalice, Trinisphere and Armageddon helping the fliers to go all the way.
In the future I'll test the "manplan" a bit more and I'll also think about re-adding Mishra's Factory, maybe in place of the Quarter and some Plains.

kabal
12-23-2007, 09:50 AM
Some more details.
My list for the tournament was

....

SB
4 Defense Grid
4 Suppression Field
3 Duskrider Peregrine
3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Oblivion Ring


How did Suppression Fields work out for you? How many times was it boarded in? What MUs did it play a crucial role?

Silverdragon
12-23-2007, 11:07 AM
How did Suppression Fields work out for you? How many times was it boarded in? What MUs did it play a crucial role?

I boarded it in against Breakfast where it not only stops the combo but also Aether Vial and the fetchlands (contrary to Ghostly Prison it does not however stop a 1/1 and a 1/2 from attacking *frown*). I also boarded it against Affinity where it again helps against Vial and also Ravager. I didn't draw it in my match against Affinity but if I had it would've helped against Engineered Explosives and Seal of Primordium too. (btw the Breakfast player showed me a Seal of Cleansing that he boarded after the match)
You can also board it in against Landstill. (I didn't because time was running out and being under pressure I forgot what to take out so I just threw in the 6 creatures and some Grids for Prisons and Tabernacle effects. I think the correct plan is to board out the Mox Diamonds.)
One match where I considered it too was Ichorid because I was thinking about bluffing him out of dredging but in the end I figured that my opponent was smart enough to just call a judge and ask whether he could dredge with Field on board or not (for those who still don't know: yes you can as dredge is a replacement ability).
Generally Field is mainly in my board for 2 things: 1. Slowing down Survival and 2. Utterly destroying Goblins (well it's not that extreme but against Goblins it stops Aether Vial, Wasteland and Port, Siege Gang Commander, Gempalm Incinerator, Mogg Fanatic, Goblin Sharpshooter, Kiki Jiki and Goblin Tinkerer in addition to the obvious fetchlands)
Ah, I almost forgot another good use: Loam variants and XYLands.dec also have a hard time dealing with Field. Cyclelands cost extra, Maze of Ith suddenly becomes Kor Haven, Barbarian Ring and Manlands require at least 3 mana etc.

f|i[p]
01-07-2008, 11:08 PM
@silverdragon

I have noticed that you had only 2 smokestack in your list, how did that go for you? Did you even miss smokestack at all or wanted it at times you could have had it in your hand?

JDunkin00
01-09-2008, 07:56 PM
How did Suppression Fields work out for you? How many times was it boarded in? What MUs did it play a crucial role?

Suppression Fields owns fetchland heavy decks, more taxes for goblins to pay, but slows your wastelands. Thank you for using Ghost Quaters.:smile: I am an avid fan of it, besides the fact a lot of decks run 2 -3 basics so you can run them out of targets quickly to make total wastelock. Plus the mana fixing for yourself could be benificial sometimes.

Julian23
01-11-2008, 04:50 AM
Hi partypeople,

right now my Sideboard consists of:
4x Sphere of Law
4x Defense Grid
4x Suppression Field
3x Oblivion Ring

As it seems quite clear to me when to sideboard in which card the hard choice I have to make is what to side out for. I'm rather new to playing this deck so could any of you give me some advice regarding the general sideboard-plan against the usual suspects Landstill, Threshold, Ceph.Breakfeast, Aggro Loam etc.?

Thanks and goodbye

Silverdragon
01-11-2008, 08:48 AM
Hi there, been some time since I last replied.
@f|i[p] There were some games where Oblivion Ring was dead in my hand but those games were against Ichorid and TES so Smokestack would not have been any different. In all the other games that day 2 Smokestacks were ok too but I will most likely go up to 3 again (purely by feel and intuition; This is not tested)
@JDunkin00 Manafixing with Ghost Quarter actually was relevant in my match against Burn that day when I Quartered my Flagstones to get double white for Exalted :)
However in all the matchups where Wasteland is great Quarter is "just" another Wasteland and in all the matches where Wasteland is bad Quarter is worse so I'll most likely cut it for Horizon Canopy in the future.
@Julian23
Against Landstill you generally board out Chalice, any Tabernacle effects and some mix of Ghostly Prison and Trinisphere (if your opponent plays Deed) so you can bring in 4 Grids, 4 Fields and maybe Oblivion Ring.
Threshold is a bit more complicated as it depends on what your opponent boards out (if Swords go out Magus stays in for example) and what version he plays (how many colors? Counterbalance or no? 4cc threats or no? Stifles and Wastes? etc.). Generally you don't want to board in the Suppression Fields as most of your maindeck is stronger than Fields against them. Ironically the card that can go most easily, especially if you are on the draw, is Chalice of the Void. Right now I believe (and my testing has shown this to be true most of the time) setting Chalice @ 2 is far stronger than setting it @ 1 against Threshold (of course Chalice @1 on turn 1 is still ridiculous but if you can get down a Chalice @2 before they play Goyf the game obviously becomes a lot easier to win). So if you are on the draw game 2 you board out Chalice for Defense Grid and 3 Magus for 3 Oblivion Ring (boarding out some number of Ghostly Prison and Armageddon is also fine but as I said it depends on what you expect your opponent to be doing). If you are on the play after sideboarding you again board in Grids but this time it gets harder to decide what to board out. I generally board out a combination of Armageddon and Crucibles (2/2 split or 3/1 split) however I'm not sure here (I still need more testing).
Now on to Breakfast. Here you want Oblivion Rings and all the Suppression Fields. This time you can board out Exalted Angel.
*aside* Angel stays in against Thresh because it can race a 6/7 Goyf and kill Nimble Mongoose which Magus can't. It costs 3 mana to play initially so it's easier to cast against Daze. However compare with the Magus-Swords example: if your opponent keeps in Engineered Explosives after boarding take out the Angel instead of Magus/Crucible/Geddon.
*end aside*
Another card that can go is Armageddon as Wasteland usually does enough together with Ghostly Prison and other lockpieces here.
Against most Aggro Loam builds you can only board in Suppression Field and I suggest you cut Trinisphere as almost all Loam builds can work around it and even use it to their advantage with Wastelands of their own. Some versions play Seismic Assault and Sphere of Law is obviously good against that. However unless you've also seen multiple red creatures I'd rather advise you to bring in Oblivion Rings. In any case Magus of the Tabernacle is again an obvious card to be cut here.

I hope this answers some questions. Thanks for your interest in the deck.

JDunkin00
01-12-2008, 11:46 AM
GQuarters is not good just when wasteland is great but sucking out thier basics makes more games where wasteland is great. Besides it like in vintage when you have 4 waste 1 strip mine. This is prob the closest we will see to be a proxy strip mine.

Ceridan
01-28-2008, 03:06 PM
What do you board out for Aven Mindcensor, and in which matchups?

Silverdragon
01-28-2008, 04:13 PM
On Ghost Quarter: You very very rarely use it to "suck out their basics".
Let's look at the current DtB Forum.
TES - Only non-basics; GQ is another Wasteland
Dragon Stompy - 8 non-basics 10 Mountains; gl sucking out all their Mountains. Using it on a 2 mana land seems a lot stronger
Ichorid - Only non-basics; another Wasteland
Mirror - 6-8 Plains; might come in handy in the very late game but again using it on 2 mana lands or Factory seems like the better choice
Landstill - depending on build no basics to lots of basics; The standard 4c lists play no basics so it's "just" another Wasteland there again. Against lists with some basics using it on a dual to colorscrew them looks like a valid plan too so again not much sucking basics out
Threshold - lists play from 0-4 basics; again the power of GQ varies greatly however as Thresh very often plays Pithing Needle main this might be the matchup where GQ is strongest (circumventing Needle on Waste)
Loam - mostly 0 basics; again GQ acts as Wasteland number 5
Vial Gobbos - about 4-8 Mountains depending on splash; in the past they played more basics so right now you might get to the point where they don't have any basics left in their library, however early I think using GQ on a Port or Dual (to cut them off a splash) is the better choice
Belcher - no comment
Burn - lots of basics; here Ghost Quarter does almost nothing (of course Wasteland is useless too). To a lesser extend this is the same for Goyf Sligh.
Cephalid Breakfast - again no basics
The Rock - lists range from 3-8+ basics; one last time I think you have a hard time going through 8 basics however there might be some versions where it is actually possible to chew through all of their basics.

Remember I didn't want to say GQ sucks because even if it is just another Wasteland it still is another frickin' Wasteland but depleting an opponent of all his basics generally is not what you want to do against the majority of decks that do have basics. Maybe if you played Exploration but not in the monoW version of this deck.

On the Aven Mindcensors: They were experimental slots because in Speyer there are always some Survival players. So far I only used them to speed up my clock (after losing a 40 minute game 1 against Landstill), taking out all the anti-aggro cards (Tabernacle effects, Prisons) and Chalices. I think they are not what I want in these sb slots so I'll replace them with Tormod's Crypt most likely.
I already tried Pithing Needle and they didn't help much against Landstill (they did help some but the matchup in testing was still negative). Against Survival I lose against their recursion so maybe Crypt will help me there.

Arsenal
02-06-2008, 03:47 PM
I might be late to the party, but after reading Chris Coppolla's article on Angel Stax on SCG, I want to play this. It says that this has a decent Thresh matchup. I've noticed there's been little activity here; just wondering if there's been anything added to this deck? Hoofprints of the Stag? Solemn Sirculamen?

BKclassic
02-06-2008, 04:37 PM
I might be late to the party, but after reading Chris Coppolla's article on Angel Stax on SCG, I want to play this. It says that this has a decent Thresh matchup. I've noticed there's been little activity here; just wondering if there's been anything added to this deck? Hoofprints of the Stag? Solemn Sirculamen?

At Worlds people toyed around with adding blue and Enlightened Tutor:

instant [4]
4 Enlightened Tutor

sorcery [7]
4 Armageddon
3 Ravages of War

enchantment [8]
4 Ghostly Prison
1 Pendrell Mists
3 Propaganda

artifact [16]
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
1 Pithing Needle
1 Smokestack
2 Talisman of Progress
4 Trinisphere

land [26]
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Dust Bowl
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Mishra's Factory
3 Plains
2 Tundra
3 Wasteland

But this build has not really caught on. Solemn Simulacrum might be worth considering in a revamped version of the deck.

My current build (which I think is fairly standard) is:

4 Mox Diamond
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
2 Horizen Canopy
4 Flagstones of Trokair
6 Plains

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack

4 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Armageddon
2 Exalted Angel
4 Magus of the Tabernacle

zulander
02-06-2008, 04:52 PM
Meditate seems like a good addition if you plan on playing blue.

Arsenal
02-06-2008, 05:52 PM
Has anyone thought of using Chronosavant as a kill condition? Giving your opponent two total upkeeps w/ 1-2 soot counters on Smokestack is just brutal.

Dark_Cynic87
02-06-2008, 06:10 PM
This deck does need changed, and blue is the right way to go, but Meditate won't get it done. That's outrageous. Skip a turn? How does this seem like a good idea?

Intuition would be the choice card IMO. Explanations below.

Here are some upsides to making this UW:

Propaganda AND Ghostly Prison (Ok, not entirely necessary...)

12 Armageddon Effects available via the 8 white ones and now a more janky Parallax Tide; although it could be used more as tech to keep them at 2 lands with a 3sphere out or something. Take away a land to make a Goyf get sacced...it's maybe a board card, I'm not sure. Haven't tested anything.

Pendrell Mists > Magus of the Tabernacle (But maybe both would be good...)

Intuition, TfK (I don't like this one, but it works well with the next card down), Thoughtcast (Cheap, but Chalice doesn't counter it; 3sphere, however makes it not as good). There may be more...but for now it's something to chew on.

Here's my favorite: Academy Ruins. Counter-spells are no longer as problematic. Boseiju can of course be run in the board to make sure Intuition is resolved.

Or possibly Cephalid Coliseum or even Horizon Canopy? I like a singleton LftL in a deck with Intuition and Ruins. I dunno. But I've been thinking about this a LOT lately.

BTW, this is my first post here, however I'm a regular poster over on mtgsal and motl under the s/n of cartman_1337.

Pce,

--DC

Gambit
02-06-2008, 06:23 PM
Meditate seems really good in this deck. You often are "draw go" after a geddon or "draw, land, go". With lock pieces out skipping a turn isn't too bad if your oppenent isn't doing anything during there turn, also very good with a couple counters on smokestack.

Dark_Cynic87
02-06-2008, 06:34 PM
and if your lock pieces aren't all down, then you've just drawn a dead card. After you have your lock pieces down, though, why would you need extra draw? Drawing random cards in a deck that needs certain pieces doesn't seem to be at all helpful, especially when the drawback is as stringent as Meditate's is.