[Article] Legacy Threshold - Part VI

[Bardo]

Article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14314.html)


Overall, the evolution of my version of the deck over time has been to maximize the deck's clock speed and aggression, focusing a great deal of attention to attaining maximum early-game disruption. Who needs a late game when you can just win instead?

Basically, an update of my version of Threshold that I've been playing since September, 2004.

[Aggro_zombies]

Article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14314.html)



Basically, an update of my version of Threshold that I've been playing since September, 2004.
Uh...is your list supposed to be creatureless, or am I on crack?

EDIT: Guessing from the article, I'd say you're running 4 Goose, 4 Mage, 4 Goyf...?

[Bardo]

Uh...is your list supposed to be creatureless, or am I on crack?

EDIT: Guessing from the article, I'd say you're running 4 Goose, 4 Mage, 4 Goyf...?

Many, many thanks for point that out. SCG has fixed that part.

[Citrus-God]

Yay! Another Thresh artice by Bardo. Anyways, I love seeing you write about this deck (even though it has cards like Mental Note and bashed Hatfield Thresh really badly).

Tarmogoyf is a monster on turn 2. Whoever discovered that thing for this deck is a genius (I think it must've been you).

Anyways, thank you for the article.

A~A.

[Nightmare]

That list at the end of the article is sexy.

[Barook]

Good article.

But i found one thing very odd: You countered Natural Order with Spell Snare? :confused:

[georgjorge]

I seem to remember that you talked about Counterbalance in Threshold in a previous article...has it not been turning out well for you ? I am currently playing them in UGr Thresh, and find it quite good, as Top is pretty solid on its own, and Counterbalance is spectacular at times...

[Mijorre]

Good article.

But i found one thing very odd: You countered Natural Order with Spell Snare? :confused:

He is l33t like that.

[Zach Tartell]

Captain Adam J Barnello, Esq. (seriously)

Greatest shout out ever, even if you did steal the materiel for his next bio. I was gonna have him be a captain in the ATF, struggling through the death of his family by the Mexican drug lord Cálasso Savala Rodriguez Rodriguez Rodriguez de Flandres III.

This was probably my favorite of all your articles yet. I love the deck list, will probalby drop the snares for good ol' counterspells. My only question about the deck is why just the one explosives? I really think that it's worth running two, maybe like a 1/1 MB/SB split.

Solid work, in-depth explinations. A great way to say goodbye.

[dre4m]

I like the article, but it's so hard to take seriously when you kept talking about countering Daze with Spell Snare!!!!

[Nihil Credo]

Great article. I've been in love with Spell Snare for quite some time, nice to see it get the nod over that clunky Counterspell.

Have you considered -1 Meddling Mage, +1 Werebear in the MD? I prefer that configuration in the Mental Note version, myself.

[AnwarA101]

What are you trying to say?

I think his point is that Tarmogoyf is so good that it doesn't matter whether the picture is good or bad because he would still play it.

@Bardo - Do you think playing Spell Snare is still good in Post-Flash Legacy? I think it makes your Goblin matchup weaker and probably your control matchup weaker as well.

[Happy Gilmore]

: From a earlier post that was moved to another forum



Heck, I'd even play Tarmogoyf if it depicted My Little Pony living on a cloud made of lollipops and puppy dogs




What are you trying to say?






I think his point is that Tarmogoyf is so good that it doesn't matter whether the picture is good or bad because he would still play it.



I gathered as much, but I wont tolerate slander of My Little Pony :mad: .

[Nightmare]

I moved the discussion on the Words Enchantments and Pithing Needle to the appropriate Forum. Let's keep this thread focused on the article, thanks.

[Bardo]

You countered Natural Order with Spell Snare?

1337ness, indeed. Sorry, my notes are a mess. It was either Daze of Force, not Spell Snare. Sorry for that.


I love the deck list, will probalby drop the snares for good ol' counterspells. My only question about the deck is why just the one explosives? I really think that it's worth running two, maybe like a 1/1 MB/SB split.

First, try the Snares before you drop them for CSpells. I've been playing CSpell in this deck for literally years and was not sad to see them go (for now).

Re: Explosives. I've been running them even before my first post at TMD (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=19419.0) (post #4), so I know what I'm giving up. In the abstract it's good with Tarmogoyf, but after loads of games (in the article and in all of my pre-GP testing leading up to that article), I really haven't missed them. And since so much of what I used to blow up cost 2, it's far easier to counter it on the stack for 1 mana, than nuke it on the board for 4.

Overall, Pithing Needle just seemed to do more and do it just cheaper.


Solid work, in-depth explinations. A great way to say goodbye.

Thanks. :)


I like the article, but it's so hard to take seriously when you kept talking about countering Daze with Spell Snare!!!!

Heh, sorry. I agree it doesn't make sense. If you can pay U for Snare, might as well pay 1 for Daze. I'll attribute that to mental laziness, when I was just pouring over Flash lists and picking out the 2 cmc spells.



Have you considered -1 Meddling Mage, +1 Werebear in the MD? I prefer that configuration in the Mental Note version, myself.

I'd probably go -1 MM +1 Enforcer, honestly, since I was doing that so often. With 4/4 Gofys/Geese, I don't think I need another ground-pounder.


I think his point is that Tarmogoyf is so good that it doesn't matter whether the picture is good or bad because he would still play it.

Exactly. My Little Pony isn't really what you want to be looking at when playing a fantasy-themed card game. Maybe if I were an eight year-old girl though... ;)


@Bardo - Do you think playing Spell Snare is still good in Post-Flash Legacy?

I think so, yes--for the reasons I listed in the article.

[Zilla]

Heh, sorry. I agree it doesn't make sense. If you can pay U for Snare, might as well pay 1 for Daze. I'll attribute that to mental laziness, when I was just pouring over Flash lists and picking out the 2 cmc spells.
It's clear that you meant Snare targeting Daze is a solid play. +1 Thresh for the win, fuckers.

[Bane of the Living]

Thanks for the series of in depth and well articulated articles. Your's were my favorite to read since you maintain a professional demeanor and dont pretend to know about things your not a professional on. Ill take your advice on Thresh any day.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Achilles' Heel. It's a reference to the back of the dude's foot where he got arrowed'ed.


Of all of the Threshold players at the GP, Paul was the only one to make the cut to the Top 8. This same 4/4/4 configuration was also used by Helmut Summersburger to win Grand Prix: Lille, which is what convinced me to test Mental Note in the first place, as well as Pat McGregor to make the Top 8 at Grand Prix: Philadelphia. I find it hard to argue with success, but if you live in Virginia, I'm sure you'll find a way.

The Columbus list and winning list from Lille also both ran Fire/Ice and Lightning Bolt. It seems odd to appeal to winning lists for part of your decision, but not follow that logic through to it's natural conclusion and just run the decklist in question. The only thing I can imagine is that you assume that, despite their success, you feel that you are able to make improvements upon the archetype. That's fine, but it deflates your "can't argue with success" argument entirely.

[Bardo]

Achilles' Heel. It's a reference to the back of the dude's foot where he got arrowed'ed.

Yep, I know the story, and I know that I always type that wrong... Ugh.


The Columbus list and winning list from Lille also both ran Fire/Ice and Lightning Bolt. It seems odd to appeal to winning lists for part of your decision, but not follow that logic through to it's natural conclusion and just run the decklist in question.

My posture should always be clear in my articles (I hope): here are the tools I used, this is the house I built. Build your own house and use whatever tools work for you. Apart from the section on Tarmogoyf, which I posit as being superior to Werebear in the Threshold shell, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm sharing my thoughts and experience. Do with it as you will and take it for whatever you feel it is worth.


The only thing I can imagine is that you assume that, despite their success, you feel that you are able to make improvements upon the archetype. That's fine, but it deflates your "can't argue with success" argument entirely.

I make no such assumptions. See above.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

But if your argument for the validity of your article is going to be "This is my house", then the argument for Mental Note that "This is what someone else's house looks like and look how well it went" becomes invalid. The latter could only be valid if you were trying to use previous success to argue that such-and-such was a superior choice based simply on results. That argument delegitimizes your entire deck.

[Bardo]

But if your argument for the validity of your article is going to be "This is my house", then the argument for Mental Note that "This is what someone else's house looks like and look how well it went" becomes invalid. The latter could only be valid if you were trying to use previous success to argue that such-and-such was a superior choice based simply on results. That argument delegitimizes your entire deck.

I have nothing to add to what I have already said.

[Illissius]

This same 4/4/4 configuration was also used by Helmut Summersburger to win Grand Prix: Lille, which is what convinced me to test Mental Note in the first place
Note: test. Not use. Presumably, he also tested Lightning Bolts, and liked the house better with the former, but not the latter.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I have nothing to add to what I have already said.

I would advise going back to saying you run Mental Note because it is "your house", and not throwing out Virginia-bait that you're not going to actually back up. If you want to run Mental Note, that's fine, just don't try to imply everyone who doesn't is some kind of scrub that ignores results.

[DrJones]

Could you write an article about which cards slaughter your deck? I'm somewhat interested.

[Citrus-God]

Could you write an article about which cards slaughter your deck? I'm somewhat interested.


Chalice of the Void, Tangle Wire, Smokestack, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Crucible of Worlds, and Trinisphere.

[Anarky87]

Chalice of the Void, Tangle Wire, Smokestack, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Crucible of Worlds, and Trinisphere.

Read as: Stax and Gobs. :wink:

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think Threshold's worst matchup remains control, especially board control. They're running very few threats and a lot of fluff, and cards like StP, Bolt, and Daze are very often less than useful.

[B4L4]

don't forget 43 lands.deck, train-wreck, and jotun grunt

[Solpugid]

I've beaten 43 land and Stax much more often than not with thresh, but goblins continues to give me problems.

Really, the key to beating the first two decks (for me) is to counter their first big spells (trinisphere, stax, manabond, mulch) and then cantrip into mostly beaters (i.e. actually bypass counters). Surviving the initial barrage of powerful cards leaves their hand mostly land, and their topdecks are far worse than thresh's. So, beat like a madman while you have the mid-game advantage.

Another huge part is naming well with mages. I haven't had too much experience with this against 43 land, so I won't go into that, but for stax I believe you should name trinisphere first, then ghostly prison (assuming the white version).

My results may be due to my build: much more control-minded than Bardo's build, which may be why I can run with control but not with aggro. The correct build seems really meta-dependant to me. However, I have yet to make the switch to 'goyf so my results may be a little different. I must say though, this article was very thorough and makes a lot of points for 'goyf's inclusion. Good work!

[Citrus-God]

I think Threshold's worst matchup remains control, especially board control. They're running very few threats and a lot of fluff, and cards like StP, Bolt, and Daze are very often less than useful.

Bascially any deck's with the principle of gaining or using card advantage to either control the game or outplay the opponent. Threshold and Fish loses to card advantage like Life from the Loam, Chalice, and decks with tons of Wrath effects.


Jotun Grunt isnt hard to be btw. I've beaten Fish tons of times.... then again, I've beaten Threshold with Fish tons of times.

[frogboy]

I think Threshold's worst matchup remains control, especially board control. They're running very few threats and a lot of fluff, and cards like StP, Bolt, and Daze are very often less than useful.

Granted that this thought probably occured to someone in the last eighteen months, but aren't the board control decks (the ones with no counterspells) more or less wrecked by Armageddon?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You actually have to have a creature to capitalize on Armageddon. Unless they just walk right into it, which is still really only good for one game. I've beaten Threshold through plenty of Armageddons.

[Nihil Credo]

Most board control decks either have more countermagic than Threshold (Landstill), run Life from the Loam or Crucible (43 lands, Stax, 4C Landstill), or run Armageddons and Moxes themselves (Armageddon/Wildfire Stax).
Only Rifter, Wombat, and MBC really get wrecked by Armageddon, and the first two always pack Sacred Ground in the SB - although they could forget to bring them in against Threshold.

[Bane of the Living]

Another huge part is naming well with mages. I haven't had too much experience with this against 43 land, so I won't go into that, but for stax I believe you should name trinisphere first, then ghostly prison (assuming the white version).


Mage against 43 lands should name Life from the Loam then Roar of the Wurm.

Mage against Stax should always name Chalice of the Void first and foremost, followed by Smokestack.

[Solpugid]

I could see maging chalice, though if you get later in the game it doesn't do that much (since it doesn't effect the creatures you should have in play). Smokestack can be named, but my first mage usually comes down naming the less expensive card so daze and counterspell can go after smokestack. So far it's worked, but it may not be the best play. Still, in the mid-game when you want to turn aggro and win as quickly as possible ghostly prison is your worst nightmare.

[georgjorge]

I have a pretty good UGr Thresh with Counterbalances, having pretty good game against Goblins and much of anything else, but I CAN'T seem to ever beat Landstill (4c) or White Stax. I'm boarding in the following...

2 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
2 Counterspell
2 Pithing Needle
2 Vedalken Shackles (against Stax' Angel) or 2 Stifle (against Landstill's Deed)

but somehow, as mentioned above, they just got more removal and threats than I have answers for. I keep thinking that the deck would need some sort of permanent card advantage engine to keep up with them, since speed will not take you far in those matchups. However, the choices are relatively limited since it shouldn't really cost more than three, I think...So candidates would be, for example,

Trade Routes
Bösium Strip (erm...)
Holistic Wisdom (not card, but quality advantage)

which do not sound very promising to me...