Pithing Needle and the Words Enchantments

[Happy Gilmore]

Had I known my opponent was playing Words of Wind (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Words+of+Wind), I would have certainly Pithed that instead. My mistake proves fatal and I concede facing a truly crushing board position (double Argothian Enchantress (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Argothian+Enchantress), the Words, Solitary Confinement (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Solitary+Confinement), and a pile of other enchantments that cluttered the board when Replenish (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Replenish) hit earlier).


Its an honest mistake but you can't stop WoW with Pithing Needle because its a triggered ability.

[KillemallCFH]

Its an honest mistake but you can't stop WoW with Pithing Needle because its a triggered ability.Rules Text (Oracle): :1: : The next time you would draw a card this turn, each player returns a permanent he or she controls to its owner's hand instead.

Looks activated to me.

[Happy Gilmore]

Rules Text (Oracle): :1: : The next time you would draw a card this turn, each player returns a permanent he or she controls to its owner's hand instead.

Looks activated to me.

Its actually a replacement effect, and is triggered whenever you draw a card. The wording is somewhat misleading but I've encountered this issue before with Words of War and I can assure you it is a triggered ability.

[Zach Tartell]

You have to pay the one, and there's a colin (sp?). That, to me, looks alot like an activated ability. I'll bet you a dollar.

[Ewokslayer]

Its actually a replacement effect, and is triggered whenever you draw a card. The wording is somewhat misleading but I've encountered this issue before with Words of War and I can assure you it is a triggered ability.

I can assure you that you are wrong.
The Words are activated abilities that set up replacement effects.
If you don't pay to "activate" the Words nothing happens.

Perhaps you are thinking of Lightning Rift.


Whenever a player cycles a card, you may pay :1:. If you do, Lightning Rift deals 2 damage to target creature or player.



:1:: The next time you would draw a card this turn, Words of War deals 2 damage to target creature or player instead.

See the difference.
Lightning Rift will trigger whenever a card is cycled but only do damage if the mana is paid.
Words will only do anything when you pay first.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

The Words are activated abilities that set up replacement effects.

[Barook]

The Words are activated abilities that set up replacement effects.


Correct.

Basic rule to figure out what is an activated ability:

If it has a ":" after some cost, it's an activated ability. Stuff like Cycling is an exception, but the reminder text proves that rule.

[Happy Gilmore]

Sigh, someone in the past playing Words of " " convinced me it was triggered, and I am sure I lost that game because of it. Fuck that’s aggravating. Next time I call the god damn judge.

[freakish777]

Additionally triggered abilities (nearly) always are structured as "When/Whenever event X occurs, ability Y triggers."

If the Words of Whatever enchantments were worded like "Whenever you would draw a card, you may pay 1, if you do, skip that draw and do ability Z instead." then they'd be triggered, but since there's a colon involved instead, it's it's activated. That said, its cleaner activated, and I'm probably missing something as to why it being triggered wouldn't work.

[cdr]

That would be a replacement effect, freakish777, not a triggered ability.

All triggered abilities have either "when", "whenever", or "at" and do not have "instead".

[freakish777]

That would be a replacement effect, freakish777, not a triggered ability.

All triggered abilities have either "when", "whenever", or "at" and do not have "instead".

Right, I thought I was missing something with that.

[cdr]

404.1 A triggered ability begins with the word "when," "whenever," or "at."


419.1a Effects that use the word "instead" are replacement effects.


403.1 An activated ability is written as "[cost]: [effect]."

[Pinder]

Correct.

Basic rule to figure out what is an activated ability:

If it has a ":" after some cost, it's an activated ability. Stuff like Cycling is an exception, but the reminder text proves that rule.

Just to clarify, Cycling is an activated ability, and can be Needled.



502.18a Cycling is an activated ability that functions only while the card with cycling is in a player's hand. "Cycling [cost]" means "[Cost], Discard this card: Draw a card."


Also, before someone asks, Morph, Madness and Flashback are static abilities, and can't be Needled.

An aside, though: Technically you can Needle anything, as Pithing Needle really only asks you to name a card. It's only going to do anything if that card has an activated ability, but you could technically name, say, Krosan Reclamation if your opponent was stupid enough to believe it kept them from using it.

[Nihil Credo]

An aside, though: Technically you can Needle anything, as Pithing Needle really only asks you to name a card. It's only going to do anything if that card has an activated ability, but you could technically name, say, Krosan Reclamation if your opponent was stupid enough to believe it kept them from using it.
As a matter of fact, naming LED with Pithing Needle is one of my favourite tricks on MWS. People keep falling for it and not asking questions, although I even run the GoblinHero database with the Oracle wording :D

[APriestOfGix]

Remember!

if it has a ":" it is active, PERIOD!

Collen = Active!

No Collen = Triggered or Replacement.

ALL Activated abilities have Collen's and ALL abilities with Collen's are Active.

[Versus]

Hope this is cool to put this here. I didn't think it needed it's own thread on the subject.

I put together a list of common Legacy cards that can be Needled. Did I leave out anything pertinent or include something that's not actually activated by mistake?

Goblins:

Aether Vial
Mogg Fanatic
Wasteland
Rishaden Port
Seige-Gang Comander (2nd part)

Landstill:

Pernacious Deed
Disk
Powder Keg

Thresh:

Sensei's Divining Top

Landstill:

Mishra's Factory
Treetop Village
Maze of Ith
Barbarian Ring
Wasteland

Belcher:

Goblin Charbelcher
Tinderwall (second abilty)

Survival:

Surivial of the Fittest

Iggy Pop:

NOTHING?

Fish:

Jitte
SoFI

Red Death

Nantuko Shade

Sui:

Nantuko Shade
Pump Knights
Withered Wretch
Jitte

Deadguy:

Nantuko Shade
Cursed Scroll
Jitte

Ichorid:

Cephalid Coliseum
Shambling Shell

All of the above

Bloodstained Mire
Polluted Delta
Windswept Heath
Flooded Strand
Wooded Foothills

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Tinder Wall's primary ability (Sacrifice Tinder Wall: Add :r::r: to your mana pool.) isn't effected by Needle, it's a mana ability. The Shock ability it effected by needle however.

[TrialByFire]

You can't needle Tabernacle, its a triggered ability, and you left out all 5 fetchlands. Also, you can needle SDT in the thresh builds that run counter/top.

and for everyone that has tried to name Life from the Loam, it doesnt work

[Bovinious]

Fetchlands in pretty much every deck, Sensei's Divining Top in Thresh.

[Versus]

Cool, fixed. Thanks guys.

[Jak]

The 2nd Landstill list is 43 land. Good post!

[Lego]

It's colon. Not colen, or collen, or any other bastardization. Colon.

[Versus]

I got a Needle question for someone: If a Darkheart Sliver (sac for 3 life) and a Mindlash Sliver (sac to create discard) are in play and someone Needles the Minlash can I:

A) Still sac the Mindlash to gain 3 life
B) Still sac the Darkheart for discard
c) All of the above
D) None of the Above

My guess would be that ONLY the discard effect on the Mindlash itself would be halted. Any other Sliver would still have the discard ability and Mindlash would still have any other activated abilities given to it by other Slivers.

I just wanted to be sure.

[Ewokslayer]

You couldn't activate any ability on the Mindlash Sliver.
However no other slivers would be affected so you could cause discard by sacing a different sliver.

[KillemallCFH]

I'm pretty sure that the Mindlash Sliver would be rendered useless, but the Darkheart sliver could still use the abilities of both (i.e. he could sac to gain life or sac to discard). The Mindlash couldn't use the Darkheart ability because the Darkheart is giving the Mindlash an activated ability, but because of Needle, it is unable to use any activated abilities, including ones given by other slivers.

(Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.)

EDIT: Beaten to it.

[Versus]

Okay, good. So Needle negates ANY activated abilities on the named card no matter where they came from.

Thanks guys,

[Zach Tartell]

I have Sylvan library and Words of whatever on the table, and four cards in hand. I tap trhee mana into the words enchantment during my upkeep, and "draw," instead doing six damage, or making three bears, or whatever. Do I have to put two cards back down or lose eight life? I ask because I don't believe I've drawn those cards, as per library's text.

Let me clarify a bit more. I stack the three draws, pump words for three draws instead. Library only effects cards actually drawn, correct? Somebody help, please.

[Bovinious]

You dont have to put 2 back/pay 8 life, because Sylvan Library hasnt seen you as having drawn those cards (after all you didnt), so you dont have to pay for them at all. Basically Sylvan Library = 3 Words Activations or 3 Dredges without any costs of Library.

[Anusien]

Sigh, someone in the past playing Words of " " convinced me it was triggered, and I am sure I lost that game because of it. Fuck that’s aggravating. Next time I call the god damn judge.
You should always call the judge if there is any question. That's what they're there for.
You should also just know these interactions if you want to play in a tournament.

[Cait_Sith]

That was actually a discussion on the MtG Rules Digest over this.

It is the responsibility of the PLAYER to know the rules. If a judge makes an incorrect ruling that causes an bad play, it is the player's fault (although the head judge will be expected to apologize.)

If the judge makes an incorrect ruling in a play during the play, that is a different matter.

[Silverdragon]

Since it's come up in the Eternal Garden thread I'll ask here again for clarification.
If I activate Sylvan Library but replace only 1 draw with dredge or Words do I have to put back 1 or 2 cards?
http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/judgefinder.php?keywords=sylvan+library&Submit2=Ask+The+Judge%21
The first answer in this link indicates you have to put back 2 because Library takes all cards drawn so far into consideration but the second answer says you don't have to put back any.
Do I have to replace both Sylvan Library draws to keep the card drawn this turn?

[Cait_Sith]

Two. Note that Library is triggered, not activated.

But if you draw two off library and replace one draw you must still put two cards back. If you cannot put two (you ended up drawing less than 2 at that point) then you instead put as many back as you have drawn this turn.

[Silverdragon]

Ah thanks. I had the same thought but wasn't 100% sure because of the ruling at "Ask the Judge". Btw Nihil explained it really nice:

At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library.

So, here is how you proceed:

Draw your card for the turn (#1).

Library's triggered ability resolves. If you choose to do nothing, fine. Otherwise, you get to draw two cards (#2 and #3). In the latter case, you have to choose "two cards in your hand drawn this turn".

Now, if you dredge-replaced at most one of your three draws, then you do have two cards-in-your-hand-drawn-this-turn (the ones from the draws you didn't replace). You choose those cards, and have to decide whether to put them back or pay 4-8 life.

If you dredge-replaced exactly two draws, then you have only one card-in-your-hand-drawn-this-turn. By the rules, you perform as much of the card's instruction as possible, i.e. you choose one card-in-your-hand-drawn-this-turn. Then "for each of those cards", i.e. for that one card, you have to decide whether to put it back or pay 4 life.

If you dredge-replaced all three draws, then you don't have any cards satisfying the requirement. Then, "for each of those cards", i.e. for zero cards, you have to do some stuff - so you do nothing.