[Discussion] What is the right number for Chalice of the Void? Two?

[FoolofaTook]

I've been playing around with Chalice a lot and I'm wondering what the killer number against most decks is?

Zero stops a lot of combo dead in it's tracks until it finds an answer. One seems to be the number against Goblins and to a lesser extent Threshold. I get the feeling two is the ultimate answer though. If you built a deck that cast for zero, one and three and stopped two things could go pretty well.

What do other people think about the critical number for Chalice against the current Legacy metagame?

[Cabal-kun]

I've been playing around with Chalice a lot and I'm wondering what the killer number against most decks is?

Zero stops a lot of combo dead in it's tracks until it finds an answer. One seems to be the number against Goblins and to a lesser extent Threshold. I get the feeling two is the ultimate answer though. If you built a deck that cast for zero, one and three and stopped two things could go pretty well.

What do other people think about the critical number for Chalice against the current Legacy metagame?

42? It's the answer to everything.

0 stops artifact acceleration like Lotus Petal and Lion's Eye Diamond, Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox. One stops Threshold's cantrips, Aether Vial, Lackey, Rite of Flame, Wild Mongrel, some Slivers, and Dark Ritual. Two stops more Slivers, Goyf, Werebear, etc...

If you tried to build a deck to get Chalice out at zero, one, and three, wouldn't you be shutting down a good number of playable cards that would aid you?

[kicks_422]

Chalice for 1 is one of the strongest opening plays in Legacy if you're on the play. Being able to follow that up with another Chalice or a beater (e.g. Faerie Stompy) is sick.

1 isn't the right number against Goblins though... Actually Chalice isn't an answer at all to Goblins, but it's a backbreaker against Threshold if Chalice at 1 resolves.

Of course, Chalice is great against Combo. If you know your opponent is packing a combo deck, Chalice for 0 right away (unless it's Solidarity).

[ClearSkies]

Can't really go wrong with Chalice of the Void for 1 since it is easy to set up, and can hurt a lot of decks.

It is kind of harder to know when to Chalice for Zero if you don't know what you up against.

Chalice for 2 is a strong play too, but it is harder to play it first turn on the play than Chalice for 1.



If you tried to build a deck to get Chalice out at zero, one, and three, wouldn't you be shutting down a good number of playable cards that would aid you?

I don't know if it would be a good idea to Chalice for three though. It is kind of hard to do that early.

Angel Stax (and its variations) has Chalice as one of the main "lock" parts that revolves around Chalice for 0-2.

Possibly, Fairy Stompy also does this too, but I don't know much about that deck.

[Nydaeli]

From emidln's Sun Tower primer:



Goblins: 1, 3, 5, 2
Angel Stompy: 2
Fish/EBA: 2 (1 if you have a Welder in play)
Threshold: 1, 2, 4 0
Solidarity: 3, 1, 2, 4 (in that order, unless you have multiple chalices, or Chalice is your opening play)
Iggy Pop: 0, 1, 2, 3
Salvagers: 0, 2, 3 (turns off Engineered Explosives/Lion's Eye Diamond, then Living Wish, then Pernicious Deed (may not be applicable))
43Lands: 2, 3, 0 (this highly build dependent past 2)
Pikula.dec: 2, 3 (1 is important if you have seen STP and you have Welder out)
Survival Variants: 2, 3
Landstill: 2, 3 (again, 1 is important is you have seen Bolt or STP and have Welder out)
Affinity: 1, 2, 0 (0 is to turn off Lotus Petal and EE for 0)
Rifter: 2, 3, 6 (this will happen sometimes)
Reanimator: 1, 2, 3 (depends on the build)
Faerie Stompy: 0, 3 (0 turns off EE, Crypt, and their Moxen while 3 turns off the rest of their deck)
Burn: 1, 2, 3 (especially for Price of Progress)


Note that Chalice @ 1 is really good against Goblins if you can get it down before they play Vial or Lackey (i.e. first turn on the play); otherwise, any Chalice setting is next to useless.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I was going to say to look at the Sun Tower primer, but Nydaeli beat be to it. Even through the list meant to be used for R/G Stax its a very good guide to using chalice against those listed decks.

[emidln]

I desperately need to update that primer....

Anyway, some of those chalice settings are specific to Stax, but only to stop board-sweepers. Some newish decks and updates.

CRET Belcher is more vulnerable to Chalice @ 1 than Chalice @ 0 (although their hand can play around either, Chalice @ 1 takes out more cards).

SI is more vulnerable to Chalice @ 0 (takes out half of their initial mana plays, all of their blockers, and incidentally, culling the weak/led).

Angel Stompy plays Cataclysm now, so setting Chalice @ 4 if you manage to gain an advantage is pretty good (not really viable for non-Tomb decks).

The primer was written before I started playing Aether Flash, so now I'd say White Goblins want to get chaliced @ 2 and not 3 to take out Disenchant, while green Goblins want to be @ 3 since nobody plays Tranquil Domain anymore. Additionally, on the play, Chalice @ 1 is solid against Goblins unless you are running a graveyard dependent deck, then Chalice @ 0 is probably your best bet (this is the case for only a small percentage of decks).

TES now only plays 1cc mana accelerants (and some people even play Mystical Tutor even though it's bad), so Chalice @ 1 slows them down considerably, sometimes enough to play a Chalice @ 2 to cut off their tutors (especially Wish -> Shattering Spree/Hull Breach). If you can disrupt and lay Chalice @ 2 by turn 2, go for that since it's much harder for them to win without casting a tutor than it is for them to win by Wishing/Tutoring up ETW and nutting in your face.

Against Iggy Pop, you probably want to Chalice @ 1, then at 2, then at 3 and completely ignore 0 (you probably play Crypt anyway). If they can't cast Infernal Tutor, LED is likely to be useless to them. If they combo out with LEDs and Intuition/Grim Tutor, you're just going to have to accept that and move on with life. Chalice isn't the most amazing play against Iggy Pop unless you can lay down multiples, back it up with some other disruption, or have a very quick clock.

[FoolofaTook]

The deck I'm trying out has 4 Chalices, 4 Dark Rituals and 4 Lotus Petals. It frequently has the choice of Chalice for 0 or 1 on turn 1 and also a lesser chance of Chalice for 2.

It's easy to figure out how to set the Chalice when Duress is the first thing cast off the Dark Ritual. It's a lot harder otherwise. The complication with setting it at 1 is that my deck is running Lightning Bolt, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm and Duress and I need to see a Goblin or Nimble Mongoose to make the sacrifice worthwhile.

One of the things I was thinking about doing is emptying the deck of the 2 casting spells, currently just 3 Daze and 2 Storm Entity, and attacking 2 mana as the point of the deck. That would make it effectively a mana denial deck against a lot of the decks listed in the primer. There's still the big problem of what to do against Goblins with all of the 1 casters in my hand, and I totally agree that Chalice at 1 is the play that slows Goblins down to pedestrian speeds.

[Tacosnape]

I'd say against a random deck, Chalice for 2 hurts more than anything.

However, most decks with Chalices employ the Chalice for 1 strategy for a very simple reason. It's a billion times easier to get down a Chalice for 1 before your opponent can play a 1CC spell than it is to get down a Chalice for 2 before your opponent can play a 2CC spell.

It'd be interesting, I've always thought, to see a deck without anything in the 2CC slot built to drop Chalice at that.

[MattH]

It'd be interesting, I've always thought, to see a deck without anything in the 2CC slot built to drop Chalice at that.
That seems unlikely to me, since Chalice for 2 strongly implies you're running Tomb/City to drop it fast, which means you have a particular love for spells which cost {2}.

I suppose you could set up the deck to go T1 land, Exploration, land, untap, T2 land land Chalice for 2.

[Tacosnape]

That seems unlikely to me, since Chalice for 2 strongly implies you're running Tomb/City to drop it fast, which means you have a particular love for spells which cost {2}.


Well, I mean, to a degree you're obviously right, which is why I think nobody's built the deck yet, but I think this is not necessarily the case.

It's not so much spells that cost :2: that Chalice/Tomb decks love as the mana symbol :2: itself. For example, a huge portion of Faerie Stompy thrives on the :2::u: curve. The only big spells you cast for :2: exactly in most Chalice Aggro decks are Chalice itself (Which we've replaced by casting it for :4:) and Umezawa's Jitte, which would be admittedly a huge loss.

What we would be looking at is a deck where almost every spell costs 0, 1 of whatever color the deck is, one colorless, or a total of three with a maximum of one colored mana symbol. Chalice would obviously take up your 4-drop slot.

That's a lot of building flexibility for what could be an incredibly powerful strategy. Imagine being able to play Duress/Therapy or STP in the same deck as Chalice of the Void.

The difficult part, of course, would be in getting the Chalice for 2 down before it was too late. Which is probably what would sink the deck. If you ran enough acceleration to consistently do this, you'd probably hurt the strength of the deck.

Just off the top of my head, this could be used for some sort of Angel Stompy spinoff, like even one with a decent combo matchup:

11 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox

4 Savannah Lions
4 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Foothill Guide (Surely there's a better choice than this, but I'm not thinking very deep here)
4 Exalted Angel
4 Aven Mindcensor

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Armageddon
3 Pithing Needle
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Chalice of the Void

[Phantom]

It'd be interesting, I've always thought, to see a deck without anything in the 2CC slot built to drop Chalice at that.

You went WW, I immediately thought of Black aggro since Ritual can help you power out Chalice @2. Duress and Therapy...Negator and 8 Zombies...no sinkhole or hymn (ouch).

Anyway, I don't think the problem with game-planning Chalice @2 isn't how slow it is or how many resources it eats up or even not being able to run Jitte (which is a slap in the face) but the fact that Chalice @2 kinda sucks.

All my days playing Chalice aggro there were 4 decks I can think of off the top of my head that I really wanted to get Chalice down @2 instead of 1. Angel Stompy, Deadguy, Rifter, and anything based around Loam. Not exactly the upper tier of Legacy right now. A number of decks are hurt by Chalice @2, but most of them are more hurt by Chalice @1 (see Threshold, Goblins, most builds of Fish and combo, although Chalice @0 seems to be the play of choice against combo now).

[FoolofaTook]

The idea of Chalice at 2 is to design a deck where that doesn't inconvenience me at all but does some systemic damage to the other deck.

Chalice at 1 is such a strong play against a bunch of decks, however it also hurts the deck playing it unless that deck is not using the best spells available in Legacy.

I'm just looking for a way to get some systemic leverage out of an early permanent that also doubles as anti-combo at 0.

[Nihil Credo]

It'd be interesting, I've always thought, to see a deck without anything in the 2CC slot built to drop Chalice at that.
The vast majority of Angel Stax lists have no 2cc plays, except for Defense Grid in the sideboard (most people favour Engineered Explosives over Powder Keg).

[FoolofaTook]

It's just ugly trying to design a Chalice deck to shut down 1CC. The main problem I'm running into is with fixing the bad mana draws. Brainstorm almost singlehandedly lets you cut a couple of mana sources out of the deck and thicken its denial and threats.

Then you have the first turn emergency spot removal that can save the day and Lightning Bolt or StP are the cards to do that with.

By the time you get to optional but powerful cards like Duress the argument has already been won in their favor by the prime cards above, particularly when Dark Ritual is the best way to get out a Chalice for one on turn one.

I was looking at a heavy aggro deck without the staples above, other than Dark Ritual, and a bunch of 2CC and 3CC threats and it just choked way too often on a poor mana draw with 4 or 5 uncastable cards in the opening hand. Mulligan to 6 is such a loss for an aggro deck.

Then I started to look at Trinisphere instead of Chalice of the Void, however it's another 3CC that can get caught in the hand and die really fast to combo or weenie aggro.

I can't help feeling that there's a really dominant deck based around Chalice as it's main early defense but its not the broken deck with all the 1CC mainstays that I thought it was.

[Cait_Sith]

Prison decks heavy on the brown can do a chalice at 1 without any injury. EX: Stax. They don't run 1 drops, some builds don't even run 2 drops.

[Tacosnape]

Most Chalice decks shut off 1CC the best. It's the easiest optimal play.

As far as Stax, yes, a lot can shut off 1 and 2 equally well. But I was referring specifically to designing a deck that was designed to shut off 2 but never 1.

I disagree with Phantom here, although I haven't tested to know for sure. If you could get Chalice 2 out fast enough, the shutdowns would be endless. Survival, Mongrel, Loam, Hymn, Sinkhole, Shade, Giant, Piledriver, TS Hooligan, Counterspell, Standstill, Meddling Mage, Diabolic Edict, Umezawa's Jitte, Burning Wish, Living Wish, Infernal Tutor, Werebear, Tarmogoyf, Disenchant, Reset, Impulse, Counterbalance, etc. Most decks in Legacy have 10+ 2-drops in the deck, some packing as many as 20+.

[emidln]

When designing the original Sun Tower builds I realized the power of keeping 2cc spells to a minimum so I could better Chalice @ 2. This was the driving force behind playing Rolling Earthquakes since their variable casting cost would allow me to play sweepers that avoid my own Chalices. In fact, postboard in many matchups I board in 8 1cc spells and refuse to Chalice @ 1 to allow myself Goblin Welder and Pithing Needle. So far, this strategy has been completely sound. The only 2cc spell that I run maindeck has been Sylvan Library as a 3-of, which is a turn 1 play at its best.

[FoolofaTook]

I'm going to go back to looking for the Chalice at 2 deck. That lets me run all the 1CC cheese and 3CC threats and drop a permanent that doesn't effect me at all. Chalice for 0 when I see Lion's Eye Diamond or a Storm spell off of Duress will be a bonus.

Black is a must color for Dark Ritual and secondarily Duress. Blue is probably a must for Brainstorm, Force of Will and Serendib Efreet. I guess the question is whether or not Vindicate or Necrotic Sliver are strong enough in the concept to make White the third color instead of Red. Lightning Bolt and Earthquake give the deck a reach that White can't match easily and are better matchup spells vs Goblins

Two possible BUR builds:

More Big Aggro

4x Dark Ritual
4x Duress
2x Tombstalker
3x Jagged Poppet
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Serendib Efreet
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Earthquake
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Lotus Petal
2x Nevinyrral's Disk
3x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
3x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island

Less Big Aggro

4x Dark Ritual
4x Duress
1x Tendrils of Agony
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Serendib Efreet
4x Earthquake
2x Empty the Warrens
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Lotus Petal
2x Nevinyrral's Disk
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
3x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island

[Phantom]

I disagree with Phantom here, although I haven't tested to know for sure. If you could get Chalice 2 out fast enough, the shutdowns would be endless. Survival, Mongrel, Loam, Hymn, Sinkhole, Shade, Giant, Piledriver, TS Hooligan, Counterspell, Standstill, Meddling Mage, Diabolic Edict, Umezawa's Jitte, Burning Wish, Living Wish, Infernal Tutor, Werebear, Tarmogoyf, Disenchant, Reset, Impulse, Counterbalance, etc. Most decks in Legacy have 10+ 2-drops in the deck, some packing as many as 20+.


Well, I'm not doubting that Chalice @2 does some damage (and I'm certainly not telling people not to build or test it) but I think when you factor in the slowness and other factors, it pales in comparison to Chalice @1. Look at the cards you named and the decks they run in:

Survival - Definitely forgot about this one. Chalice @2 is the way to go.

Madness - Ditto. Not many people play this anymore, but cutting off the outlets is key.

Red Death - I've always favored Chalice @1 here (followed by Chalice @2), but it's certainly debatable. Both are strong plays.

Goblins - Cutting off TSH's ability is nice, but they can still Vial in Piledriver. Frowny. No where near as good as Chalice @1 on the play at least.

Landstill - You know more about the 'still than me but I'm assuming that Chalice@2 is the minorest of minor roadblocks without a Chalice down @3 (or a needle on Jitte and pray for no C/P). It still leaves them 2 of the three draw engines and most of their removal and counters. I'd much rather cut off Plow and Brainstorm and try to race before they can get going.

Jitte - All the decks I play Jitte in are made to work around Chalice @2. I guess fish runs it, and once again Fish gets smacked by Chalice @1. This is close though since @2 cuts off a lot of their beaters though.

TES - I'm assuming this is where the Burning Wish comes in (I'm not sure where Living Wish comes in. People used to run it in the rock when people used to run the rock. I guess Truffle runs Glittering now, which is 2cc but I digress) but clearly the right play is Chalice @0 first. After that I still think Chalice @1 is much stronger. Cuts off Ritual and Rite of Flame and Swarm and Brainstorm (and Duress and Chant) vs. cutting off Plunge and Cabal Ritual and Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor. I could be wrong here though.

Threshold - No question Chalice@2 is good. No question Chalice@1 is 100 times better. Leaving them their draw engine will simply allow them to dig for their answer to Chalice @2 (assuming it's Explosives or Grip and not Disenchant) all while letting them plow your threats.

Solidarity - No question Chalice@2 is good. No question Chalice@1 is 100 times better.

Counterbalance decks - Hmmmm. I'm not sure here. It seems that stopping Counterbalance would be nice, but most counterbalance decks run way more 1cc spells than 2 (including SDT and Mystical/Enlightened tutor) and Counterbalance would have difficulty shutting down a deck with a curve like Faerie Stompy or Dragon Stompy without any library manipulation, so Chalice @1 still might be stronger. That's all theory though.



Still, despite all that here are my two biggest problems with Chalice @2:

1) It's slow. Really, slow. The basic Chalice aggro deck runs 8 2 mana lands and 4 moxen to help power out Chalice turn 1 (let's assume this happens 100% of the time). This means that in almost half the games you play, you get to power out Chalice @1 before they get a 1-drop. Compare this to Chalice @2. Any hand that doesn't include two two mana lands, or a two mana land, a mox, and a one mana land (let's assume this happens 50% of the time) is going to let the opponent play his strongest 2-drop before you get to lay your chalice.

This has serious ramifications versus disruption. Now I know my numbers aren't correct, but let's see what happens against some of the most played disruption spells:

Force of Will:
Chalice @1 - same.
Chalice @2 - same.

Daze: (I'm ignoring some variables like us having extra mana or them not having an island since they are mostly consistent, I think)
@1 - Gets to counter it ~ 50% of games
@2 - Gets to counter it in 100% of games

Counterspell:
@1 - Never gets to counter it.
@2 - Gets to counter it 75% of the time (always on the play and half the time on the draw when you don't get to play it turn 2)

Duress:
@1 - 50% of the time has an opportunity to grab Chalice.
@2 - 100% of the time has an opportunity to grab Chalice.

Hymn:
@1 - Never has an opportunity to grab Chalice.
@2 - 75% of the time has an opportunity to grab Chalice.

Therapy flashback on turn 2 (too tough to gauge original swing)
@1 - Never has an opportunity to grab Chalice.
@2 - 75% of the time has an opportunity to grab Chalice.

I think you get my point.

2) Chalice @2 prohibits you from playing Chalice @1, both on the board, and by the deck design. The beauty of Faerie and Dragon Stompy is that they plan to lay Chalice @1, but can bump it to 2 if that kills the other deck, and still have a great deck! The decks I'm seeing built here at least, can't afford to drop Chalice @1 if they are sitting across from Threshold or Goblins. That seems, to me at least, to be a fairly large roadblock.

[Machinus]

CotV on :1: is the starting point for all of Stax and 5/3 decks in this format.

CotV on :0: and :2: are good too but they aren't even close.

[Tacosnape]

@Phantom:

Admittedly, Chalice for 2 is incredibly slow. And I completely agree that this is what will always keep Chalice for 1 as the preferred play. I was merely arguing for the sake of arguing that if you -could- design an effective turbo Chalice for 2 deck, it would wreck a lot of face. I'm not sure one can be designed, though.

[FoolofaTook]

@Phantom:

Admittedly, Chalice for 2 is incredibly slow. And I completely agree that this is what will always keep Chalice for 1 as the preferred play. I was merely arguing for the sake of arguing that if you -could- design an effective turbo Chalice for 2 deck, it would wreck a lot of face. I'm not sure one can be designed, though.

I'm having a lot of trouble designing a deck in which Chalice at 1 is not as much of an impediment to me as to the opponent.

I guess I could get away with having just Dark Ritual as a 1CC spell but that's awfully painful given what I'd be giving up to do that. It would open up Daze and Counterspell as options again, along with Diabolic Edict and Infernal Tutor but losing Duress, Brainstorm and Lightning Bolt or 2 of those just sucks.

[emidln]

I'm having a lot of trouble designing a deck in which Chalice at 1 is not as much of an impediment to me as to the opponent.

I guess I could get away with having just Dark Ritual as a 1CC spell but that's awfully painful given what I'd be giving up to do that. It would open up Daze and Counterspell as options again, along with Diabolic Edict and Infernal Tutor but losing Duress, Brainstorm and Lightning Bolt or 2 of those just sucks.

You know, you could always stop playing awful one for one removal spells and one-shot acceleration in favor of reusable accel that isn't taken out by your own Chalices and X for 1 removal.

[FoolofaTook]

You know, you could always stop playing awful one for one removal spells and one-shot acceleration in favor of reusable accel that isn't taken out by your own Chalices and X for 1 removal.

My idea of a nightmare situation in the kind of deck I'm trying to build is: go first, drop a land, pitch an extremely valuable spell to a chrome mox and drop Chalice for 1. That leaves me with 2 mana and 3 cards in hand and my opponent on the draw and no clue if I just lost the game, although the odds probably favor that result.

I'm much happier dropping a land and Dark Ritualing for a Duress so I can decide whether or not to set the Chalice at 0 or 1 with a little information behind the play. I wind up with 1 mana and 3 cards in hand on that one but at least the Chalice is set more correctly and likely a very dangerous card in my opponent's hand is in the graveyard.