[Deck] Spanish Inquisition (B/x Storm Combo)

[Vacrix]

Wanted to post this for those interested in SITES,

3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Cruel Bargain
3 Infernal Contract
4 Duress
7 Kobolds
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
7 Lands

The idea here is to graft the Burning Wish/Empty the Warrens/Simian Spirit Guide engine on top of the Draw 4s to force your opponent to counter the acceleration or face an army of Goblins. The main difference is cutting Infernal Tutor (IMO the worst engine in Storm) and replace it with Burning Wish to reach a Recurring Insight, Balance of Power or Diminishing Returns as suplimental engines while getting the normal Empty the Warrens and Draw 4 to start the chain. While I still think Pact SI has an advantage in the sense it's creature slots double as "counter target Daze" and help cast Cabal Ritual, SITES works in a similar sense by turning the kill condition into an uncounterable threat and forcing the opponent to target the acceleration in the deck instead of the Draw 4s and Burning Wish does a pretty awesome job of being a less LED dependent threat itself. Anyway, with the amount of acceleration and bombs in this deck, ripping a Reccuring Insight looks pretty sick and easily in our mana production.

Might be a more solid approach at this point?
Agreed. Infernal Tutor really is bad when you could be playing Burning Wish, which is made easier by using Kobolds. I think that Cabal Therapy looks stronger than duress in this case, especially since it makes EtW +1 storm, which can make all the difference sometimes. The only disadvantages of reverting to this list is that the D4's are worse in SITES. 14 business means you are drawing significantly less quality cards, terrible hands like 2 Chrome Mox, Land, Therapy, and less business. 16 business means you can dig for more business more often, and Land Grant/Pact allow you to thin your library a little to improve D4 card quality (and Manamorphose, if you play it, draws gives you D5's).
I like how you want to run D7's as Burning Wish targets. I was thinking the same thing 4cc, 5cc, 6cc gives you pretty much your average amount of mana floating after a Burning Wish + LED. Pact SI better utilizes card space to produce mana, often floating more mana after a Burning Wish + LED when setting up a D7. Burning Wish is a great way to access the D7's but I think this strategy can also be incorporated into other builds, namely Pact SI as my testing with it (replacing Chrome Mox with SSG and 4 Manamorphose) revealed that it can support red. Though Summoner's Pact is not tech with EtW, we aren't always forced to play it (especially with , and post board we switch it out for Xantid Swarm anyway.
Right now I don't have the Badlands to make SITES. I can play it in Pact SI though.

Pact SI:
Business:
2 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Contract
3 Cruel Bargain

Mana:
1 Wild Cantor
1 Odious Trow
4 Manamorphose
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 SSG
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

SB:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Tomb of Urami
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Balance of Power
1 Recurring Insight
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Goblin Charbelcher

I almost want to put Null Profusion in that list instead of EtW even though the SSG for Chrome Mox is bad in this case (same with ESG). Then again Summoner's Pact finds you creatures so it drawing you 2 cards (Manamorphose does the same thing) and Pacts thin the deck to make the draws off of Null Profusion better. I'll test both lists. Maybe in the board -1 Belcher (postboard against aggro) +1 IGG?

I do like the SITES list though. I'll pick me up some Badlands.

EDIT:
Couldn't such lists also support Doomsday? We can make Burning Wish piles now.



EDIT2!:
Woah, I just realized something amazing. Final Fortune, Last Chance, or Warrior's Oath allow us to take an extra turn, which usually isn't too impressive in SI, but it becomes another D7 if you have already played Recurring Insight.

[Philipp2293]

If I take a look at your latest list (@Vacrix): Why do you still run Odious Trow without Chrome Moxen and without Unmask? Couldn't there be a better use for that slot?

Also a little playing guideline question:

Unknown opponent, I'm on the play:

2xRitual, 1xDraw 4, 1xLand Grant, 1xLotus Petal, 1xESG, 1xSummoner's Pact

Land Grant and use Bayou mana to start, or keep hand hidden and use Petal ana to start and risk ending up without red mana?

[Vacrix]

Well you can cast Odious with Ritual Mana, which is sometimes pretty significant. Sure that slot could probably be another piece of business like Belcher or something. Its not necessarily an optimized list.


Unknown opponent, I'm on the play:

2xRitual, 1xDraw 4, 1xLand Grant, 1xLotus Petal, 1xESG, 1xSummoner's Pact

Land Grant and use Bayou mana to start, or keep hand hidden and use Petal ana to start and risk ending up without red mana?
Likely you should start with Bayou. You have ESG so you don't run the risk of eating Daze, and you have multiple initial black sources. I doubt your opponent will Force the Land Grant. You won't really risk not having red mana. Pact --> Wild Cantor is always an option, especially considering you have the ESG to cast it, and you still have Lotus Petal in hand (and you might run into more Lotus Petals, Pact's, or Manamorphose). Either way, if you are up against U.dec you are going to get your D4 FoW'd if he has it so revealing Land Grant doesn't really give your opponent too much information. If you had access to double D4's though, then you might want to hide the Land Grant and try to ramp with your rituals first. Otherwise he might decide to counter the 2nd ritual and leave you unable to cast either D4.


Also, I'm thinking about using Erayo, Soratami Ascendant as a protection spell. Its pretty bomb against control if it resolves after 4 spells: it prevents the opponent from gaining card quality with cantrips, and significantly slows down their clock, while they also need 2 spells every time they want to counter something. It looks pretty good to me, if we can find the blue to support it, likely with Manamorphose and Lotus Petal.

[Philipp2293]

Problem is, that you can't feed him to Ctw without having to face the possible consequences, whereas Swarm is perfect for this purpose.

Burning Wish into D7 is monstrous, also the extra D4 in the board has helped me in quite a few games.

[the resurrection]

What about Dosan the Falling Leaf (http://www.magiccards.info/chk/en/205.html) main ?

[Vacrix]

Wow. He'd be half-decent if he costed 1 less. :/ I don't think we can get to 1GGBBB just to successfully cast some D4's. We might as well just play Duress in that case, or Cabal Therapy.


Problem is, that you can't feed him to Ctw without having to face the possible consequences, whereas Swarm is perfect for this purpose.
Could you explain this further? I don't understand. Which consequences? If you play Dark Ritual (without a green/red source in hand you can't go for Wild Cantor, this happens) then you can play Pact-->Trow, play Trow with black mana, then play Culling. Thats the line of play I'm talking about.

Which list are you using btw? Mine or Breathweapon's? Have you been able to get to UU without LED?

Also, in the Pact variant, I think that Cabal Therapy looks really strong in the board. If we can go, Burning Wish--> Cabal Therapy, Pact--> Arbor/Cantor, Flashback, Tendrils, we just created a bunch of storm (5 w/ arbor, 6 with cantor) with those 2 cards (Bwish and Pact).

[Philipp2293]

Could you explain this further? I don't understand. Which consequences? If you play Dark Ritual (without a green/red source in hand you can't go for Wild Cantor, this happens) then you can play Pact-->Trow, play Trow with black mana, then play Culling. Thats the line of play I'm talking about.

Which list are you using btw? Mine or Breathweapon's? Have you been able to get to UU without LED?

Also, in the Pact variant, I think that Cabal Therapy looks really strong in the board. If we can go, Burning Wish--> Cabal Therapy, Pact--> Arbor/Cantor, Flashback, Tendrils, we just created a bunch of storm (5 w/ arbor, 6 with cantor) with those 2 cards (Bwish and Pact).

Sorry if I've been unprecise.

The above case is concerned with a comparison of Erayo/Xantid Swarm not Trow/Swarm. Culling the swarm is perfectly fine, whereas culling Erayo is not.

I played a bit with both, currently testing your list -Trow +Witness.

UU was always the result of LED. By the way I sometimes fuck up mid combo cause I forget there is a D4 in the wishboard :(

I thought about the Therapy too, for 3 mana extra storm + protection seems fine, I bet you also sometimes get to draw a Fow with the wish, also resulting in extra storm and 1 less dangerous card, but I might be wrong.

[Vacrix]

Oh I see what you are saying. I also should have been more specific. I wasn't considering it as a replacement for Swarm, but as an addition to Swarm. Swarm is simply too powerful to drop IMO, especially when we run the ESG's to cast it. I was thinking about splitting x2 Tomb and x2 Erayo, if Erayo is even worth running at all. Its true that we can't Culling it, but at the same time, it won't die like Swarm when your opponent topdecks STP (though I think your opponent can respond to it flipping and remove it if they already have STP in play). The reason to run it, though, is that it is active immediately, unlike Swarm, and once its active, you will be giving your opponent a really hard time (as it functions as more than just another protection spell, also inhibiting them from playing cantrips and making it hard for them to stick a clock on us). Especially with Burning Wish as bait, we can play Wish (which eats FoW), and then follow it up with Erayo, likely giving us enough time to sculpt a good hand. Its a really unconventional idea but I think its worth exploring.

Concerning your change to the list.. Its definitely the right call. Its extremely rare that I've needed to fetch Cantor AND Trow, especially with SSG over Mox. Consider one Belcher instead. Especially since Burning Wish is RFG, Diminishing Returns will yield much less business than the first time we draw our initial 7 so it might be worth running more in the MD.

I'm waiting to run into a hand like this:
SSG, Lotus Petal, Manamorphose, Land Grant, Burning Wish, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual
T1: LG--> Bayou, Dark Ritual (BBB), Petal (RBBB), Manamorphose (using RB), adding UU (UUBB floating) (drawing random card), SSG (UUBBR floating), Cabal Ritual (UUBBBR) Burning Wish (UUBB), Diminishing Returns.

That hand can also go for EtW for 7, which isn't bad. Also, Manamorphose draws a card, so if its a manasource (which is likely), then there is also the possibility of going for Balance of Power or Recurring Insight with such a hand. I could go for Balance of Power if the Cabal Ritual was a 2nd Dark Ritual, and then if an additional mana source is drawn by Manamorphose then I could go for Recurring Insight. These lines of play look extremely powerful, though the conservative player might go for the EtW for 7/8.

Its also worth mentioning that, against aggro, Diminishing Returns is extremely powerful. When you can refill your opponents hand, Burning Wish into another D7 post-Diminishing Returns actually yields 7 cards instead of fewer (that is if you are on the play and your opponent emptied his hand). The only question is, will your opponent draw the full 7? If he sees knows the matchup, he might think to draw fewer cards so that we can't go off with another D7. If that happens, we should just go for EtW since they will have fewer resources in hand to deal with all the tokens.

Yeah Burning Wish will often draw FoW which means you can then start to go for your D4's or just play EtW. I wasn't really looking at Therapy as a protection spell but primarily as a way to generate more storm from a mediocre hand. I'm not sure what the hand would look like (if it can even be constructed).

Also, have you ever wanted IGG in the board?

[Philipp2293]

Concerning your change to the list.. Its definitely the right call. Its extremely rare that I've needed to fetch Cantor AND Trow, especially with SSG over Mox. Consider one Belcher instead. Especially since Burning Wish is RFG, Diminishing Returns will yield much less business than the first time we draw our initial 7 so it might be worth running more in the MD.

I'm waiting to run into a hand like this:
SSG, Lotus Petal, Manamorphose, Land Grant, Burning Wish, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual
T1: LG--> Bayou, Dark Ritual (BBB), Petal (RBBB), Manamorphose (using RB), adding UU (UUBB floating) (drawing random card), SSG (UUBBR floating), Cabal Ritual (UUBBBR) Burning Wish (UUBB), Diminishing Returns.

That hand can also go for EtW for 7, which isn't bad. Also, Manamorphose draws a card, so if its a manasource (which is likely), then there is also the possibility of going for Balance of Power or Recurring Insight with such a hand. I could go for Balance of Power if the Cabal Ritual was a 2nd Dark Ritual, and then if an additional mana source is drawn by Manamorphose then I could go for Recurring Insight. These lines of play look extremely powerful, though the conservative player might go for the EtW for 7/8.

Its also worth mentioning that, against aggro, Diminishing Returns is extremely powerful. When you can refill your opponents hand, Burning Wish into another D7 post-Diminishing Returns actually yields 7 cards instead of fewer (that is if you are on the play and your opponent emptied his hand). The only question is, will your opponent draw the full 7? If he sees knows the matchup, he might think to draw fewer cards so that we can't go off with another D7. If that happens, we should just go for EtW since they will have fewer resources in hand to deal with all the tokens.

Yeah Burning Wish will often draw FoW which means you can then start to go for your D4's or just play EtW. I wasn't really looking at Therapy as a protection spell but primarily as a way to generate more storm from a mediocre hand. I'm not sure what the hand would look like (if it can even be constructed).

Also, have you ever wanted IGG in the board?

I'm happy with Witness so far, it's another boost if you threaten to run out of business and your hand is full of Pacts/Mana(/LEDs), therefore essentialy turning your Pacts into another business spell. I remember having BBGG in the Pool, LED in play and Pact and Tendrils in the Hand, resulting in 2 extra storm, exactly enough for the win.

I think one situation where the Therapy could also be helpful is when the other player is holding Stifle, cause if he does he is less likely to Force a Burning Wish.

Regarding IGG: I remember I had one game where I cast Wish into a D-Spell (not exactly sure) where the outcome of the situation was dependent on my further draws, whereas with IGG it would have been a win.

[DireLemming]

Speaking of pactable businesses, how about Slithermuse? Besides being a draw n requiring a single U it's also abusable with Culling.

[Vacrix]

Speaking of pactable businesses, how about Slithermuse? Besides being a draw n requiring a single U it's also abusable with Culling.
If it were green, it would be an auto-include. Unfortunately, Pact can only find green creatures. You can use it with Culling (though this situation is unlikely), but I think the main draw is that its a D7 for 4, which is definitely worth exploring. It makes for a nice Infernal Tutor target, especially since there are those occasions when we can only hit 4 mana post-tutor. I've considered running it over IGG but I never bothered to test it. I certainly will in the near future now that we are dabbling in D7's. Excellent suggestion.

[Vacrix]

Alright. Are you guys ready for this? Probably not:

Pact SI
Business (17)
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Slithermuse
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Contract
3 Cruel Bargain

Mana: (43)
1 Wild Cantor
4 Manamorphose
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

SB:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Tomb of Urami
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Balance of Power
1 Recurring Insight
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Hoarder's Greed(?)

I submit this as the fastest list I've ever played with. Period. Its downright destructive. Turn 1's flow like water. It took a little getting used to, but I'll certainly be switching over to this list once I pick up the cards.

As I said earlier, I was going to test Slithermuse in the IGG slot. Well its disgustingly good. Wild Cantor, Pact--> Cantor, Lotus Petal, and Manamorphose all allow you to fix for U. Unlike IGG, its a great topdeck often netting you 5-7 cards (w/out LED). Its much stronger than IGG after Infernal Tutor (so far) often letting you float that mana into more business instead of looping with IGG. The IGG loop requires you to have the right amount of mana AND the right rituals/LED, etc. Slithermuse requires you to float 3U after Infernal Tutor at the very least. Often you float more than 3U though which helps in the case that you don't draw any initial mana sources in your new 7. In short, Slithermuse is much better than IGG.

Like Breathweapon suggested, Burning Wish is awesome because it gives you access to D7's and it doesn't have a terrible conditional ability like Infernal Tutor. Initially I dropped Infernal Tutor completely, but then I thought, what if I could run both? Well so far, Infernal Tutor has been just as good if not better than Bwish now that I'm running Slithermuse. Bwish + LED usually leads to a D7, but now so does Infernal Tutor--> Slithermuse! Infernal Tutor also gives you access to a win condition (ToA) much like Bwish, even though you can't find EtW (I have yet to wish for it in playtesting).

The hardest part about playing this build is color fixing. You have to be REALLY careful with your mana. Wild Cantor is MVP in most games, especially if you draw Slithermuse. I only had trouble winning after a D7 once and it was Diminishing Returns (it was like a mull to 5 anyway). Balance of Power really is the strongest card in the board. I usually go for it even if I can get Recurring Insight because I like to float more mana into the D7 so I have yet to use Recurring Insight. As you might have noticed in the board, I'm thinking about using Hoarder's Greed as another 'oh shit' button. Believe it or not, we actually have a pretty high avg. cc out of our 60 cards. We don't run too many land so naturally its higher, especially with x8 Spirit Guides at 3cc each. I think that often it will only draw us 4 cards, but other times it might draw us way more, especially against aggro like Zoo that has a pretty low curve.

I have no idea how to go about boarding with this list though. If anyone has any ideas on this, please share (though I think -4 Pact +4 Swarm is standard, it might be worth Cutting Tomb for EtW postboard).

The Hoarder's Greed slot is still questionable. It could also be IGG, Hull Breach or something like that.

EDIT:
This might sound dumb, but I actually wished I had x1 Lab Rats in the board. I had 2 SSG, Petal, Culling the Weak, Bwish, D4, D4 in hand, and was unable to continue w/ B floating.. Maybe its worth a slot? Unless something another sorcery can make tokens for cheaper than B?

Also, I'm considering adding more Slithermuses into the MD. They are just too good. I love drawing them so why not? I'll cut some Infernal Tutors and see what happens.

EDIT2:
Yeah, 4 Slithermuse looks much better. The last spot I'll likely replace with ToA.

[TheSleeper]

No Belcher anymore? :( Belcher + LED + 4 mana is pretty easy for this deck to achieve, it nets you random wins.

I'm still testing your older G/B Pact SI list (1 witness 1 odious) and don't feel comfortable enough to test variants yet (as I feel I wouldn't be able to tell the strengths and weaknesses between them yet). That said, I might test a single Slithermuse over IGG for fun. I also don't seem to be as down on Infernal Tutor as some others. With LED its insane, without it I've often just fetched extra rituals or a 2nd Tendrils with enough mana to cast both. At worst you imprint a Mox with it. Still its spot probably comes into question if you're adding Burning Wish.

[claudio.r]

Alright. Are you guys ready for this? Probably not:

Pact SI
Business (17)
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Slithermuse
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Contract
3 Cruel Bargain

Mana: (43)
1 Wild Cantor
4 Manamorphose
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

SB:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Tomb of Urami
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Balance of Power
1 Recurring Insight
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Hoarder's Greed(?)



I really like this deck, but at this moment i really don't have access to them. do you think it's possible to run a build of SI close to that without using them ? If yes, what do you suggest ??

Thx in advance.

[Vacrix]

No Belcher anymore? :( Belcher + LED + 4 mana is pretty easy for this deck to achieve, it nets you random wins.

I'm still testing your older G/B Pact SI list (1 witness 1 odious) and don't feel comfortable enough to test variants yet (as I feel I wouldn't be able to tell the strengths and weaknesses between them yet). That said, I might test a single Slithermuse over IGG for fun. I also don't seem to be as down on Infernal Tutor as some others. With LED its insane, without it I've often just fetched extra rituals or a 2nd Tendrils with enough mana to cast both. At worst you imprint a Mox with it. Still its spot probably comes into question if you're adding Burning Wish.
Yeah Belcher is easy to cast. The idea that I'm exploring right now, though, is running Slithermuse instead of Belcher. Slithermuse is essentially a D7 so if you also have LED then winning shouldn't be difficult after that point. At least, that is the theory. I've had a little trouble color fixing. In this build, I'm thinking that I will need a different mana base for it to work, fetches instead of Land Grant. I felt really comfortable playing with x4 Infernal Tutor yesterday but today.. it doesn't seem to be working too well. I don't know why. Maybe the inconsistency of this version is showing the more I play it. Either way, I'll continue testing variations on D7 builds until I find one that is really consistent like the GB list. Is anyone else testing with D7's? If so, hows it working out?

@ claudio.r
I'm glad you like the deck, but I'm not sure what 'them' you are referring to. Can you be more specific? Are you missing something in particular?

[Philipp2293]

@ SB: I would probably run 4 EtW, as I really appreciate the configuration of 4 BW, 3 Etw after boarding.

To what % of first turn kills do you think you can push the slithermuse buildings?

[Vacrix]

Well its unstable right now. The first 20 games I played, no joke. 20 Turn 1's on the play. Then I thought it was baller as hell so I posted that list and got all excited. Its certainly a fast ass list but it shows its inconsistencies the more you play with it. I didn't officially record any data on it yet because I'm still trying to fine tune it. I've played with x4 Slithermuse and it was alright. Getting to R for Bwish AND U for Slithermuse is too difficult so I dropped Slithermuse back to 1 and added Infernal Tutor back in. Its tricky indeed. I almost want another color fixer... I'm actually thinking about going with Crop Rotation and running Fetches instead of Land Grant. Without Belcher, there isn't much need to play Land Grant anyway. With Fetchlands, we are almost guarenteed a land in play, which makes Crop Rotation actually playable. We can turn it into a creature for Dryad Arbor, and it can act as a color fixer. Not sure if its good yet, but its certainly interesting and provides for some tech against Reanimator post-board. Thoughts on this approach?

EDIT:
Forgot to mention it really does shit on you sometimes. The advantage though is that you can mulligan down to 4 cards and still pull off a D7. Slithermuse, Petal x2, and Dark Ritual own me one game. Pretty awesome. You can also get way more mull to 5 turn 1's via Bwish-->D7 or Infernal-->Slithermuse. Mulliganing is the strongest that its ever been in SI. The problem is color fixing.

[claudio.r]

@ claudio.r
I'm glad you like the deck, but I'm not sure what 'them' you are referring to. Can you be more specific? Are you missing something in particular?

Lol, all that work to forget to mention the card! Sorry, i was referring to LED.

[BreathWeapon]

I doubt Slithermuse is superior to Meditate in SI, but as far as fetchlands are concerned you may as well use fetchlands if you aren't using Goblin Charbecher, you'll have uncounterable lands and you'll only lose out on Storm and Threshold (to a limited extent). Lands may actually be better for Pact SI in the long run, because then Xantid Swarm becomes a viable piece of disruption that could probably replace the Odious Trow slot as well. I know I've definitely wanted a 2nd Bayou in the deck on more than one occassion, so it'd definitely be worth experimenting with the Fetchland + Xantid Swarm set up for more stability.

[Philipp2293]

To be honest, one thing I feel is really tricky is to decide whether to crack LED in response to a D4. Sometimes I play D4 with little or no black mana floating, then I actually have a tough time deciding if I should crack LED.

[Gocho]

I don't play SI because I don't have Cruel Bargains, but Slithermuse grants you 4-7 cards for 3U vs 4 cards with Meditate. If you can reach the mana, seems superior to me.

[Vacrix]

Lol, all that work to forget to mention the card! Sorry, i was referring to LED.
LED is pretty important. I doubt you can replace it with something else. LED really is an investment though. Everything in Legacy seems like its rising in price. If you ever want to make Storm combo (all storm combo plays LED), I'd buy LED's now while they are 40.


I doubt Slithermuse is superior to Meditate in SI, but as far as fetchlands are concerned you may as well use fetchlands if you aren't using Goblin Charbecher, you'll have uncounterable lands and you'll only lose out on Storm and Threshold (to a limited extent). Lands may actually be better for Pact SI in the long run, because then Xantid Swarm becomes a viable piece of disruption that could probably replace the Odious Trow slot as well. I know I've definitely wanted a 2nd Bayou in the deck on more than one occassion, so it'd definitely be worth experimenting with the Fetchland + Xantid Swarm set up for more stability.
Meditate isn't bad. I haven't tried it in Pact SI though, have you? I played with 4 Slithermuse just to see if it would work (ultimately I switched back to 2 Slithermuse, and 4 Infernal Tutor). It was hard to find U consistently and R for Burning Wish, and Black for rituals, D4's, etc. It has certainly been superior to Meditate though. For 3U I've never drawn less than 4 cards with it, often drawing 7, and occasionally drawing 5 or 6. If I think back on the games, I would have had no trouble finding the extra 1 to play Slithermuse instead of Meditate. Also, Slithermuse is secret tech with Culling the Weak (and it randomly beats for 3 when you need it to). Its been a great topdeck and doesn't let the opponent Timewalk if we fail to go off. I think its much better. I've been playing with it in the IGG slot, and have been loving it. I almost want to test x4 Living Wish (its easier to find G than it is to find R) but it can't find ToA so I'm skeptical.

I agree about the Fetchlands. Xantid Swarm certainly becomes more powerful. Also, I should note that with D7's, most of the time my ToA is at about 30/32. In that case, it doesn't make sense to play LG for the extra storm. However, I'm not sure that Swarm suits all the situations that Trow does. Trow can be cast with black. I'm not playing it right now (I'm only playing with x1 Wild Cantor) and I've really missed it (I had to mull a few hands that with Trow in the deck, I would have won).


To be honest, one thing I feel is really tricky is to decide whether to crack LED in response to a D4. Sometimes I play D4 with little or no black mana floating, then I actually have a tough time deciding if I should crack LED.
Blind LED is one of the hardest things to do when playing with SI. I've found that Ewit and/or Manamorphose make such risky moves more profitable. What I'd recommend doing to practice is, when you decide to mulligan a hand, play it out anyway (as everything will just be reshuffled) to see if mulliganing was the right play, and then you will expose yourself to more lines of play. You can even record which hands were bad and which hands were good, and which blind LED's were a good call. Sometimes though, its good just to wait. If you have enough mana to play a Cruel Bargain + LED. It might be worth your while to chill for a turn and pick up some more gas.


I don't play SI because I don't have Cruel Bargains, but Slithermuse grants you 4-7 cards for 3U vs 4 cards with Meditate. If you can reach the mana, seems superior to me.
Agreed. Meditate is better in certain situations though. Namely, if you play staying mana sources like Chrome Mox and Land, you can play it at the end of your opponents turn, and then go off on your turn with 11 cards in hand.


EDIT:
Hmm.. I got my own attention. Living Wish can find Magus of the Moon too.. Thoughts on Living Wish?

[BreathWeapon]

The problem with Living Wish in Storm Combo is that Living Wish doesn't have a kill condition, so if you do play Living Wish you have to play it as like a 1x where Xantid Swarm and Slithermuse are your only targets - it's 1 card away from playable IMO.

[Vacrix]

The other option though is instead of finding a win condition, you can just find another Slithermuse so that you can draw into your win condition in the deck, or just start another D4 chain. I find it much easier to find Green than Red. Burning Wish really is a strong card, but its probably stronger in your SITES list. Could Living Wish-->Slithermuse is viable as a pseudo-wincondition? If Burning Wish lists continue to be less consistent than G/b lists, I'll probably switch out Living Wish for some Burning Wish and see how it plays. Burning Wish is really flexible though... I might just wind up playing SITES.

[Philipp2293]

Are there any drafts yet for a non-Land Grant manabase?

@Breathweapon: What is your SITES land configuration?

Concerning Living Wish: This might allow to move Dryad Arbor to the wishboard (don't know if this is a good idea), leaving more place for lands which work as initial mana source.

EDIT: Has Death Wish ever been considered? It's one mana more, but it's on color. Also let's you get any card, which might allow for some creative wishboard crazyness.

[Combo Winter]

I think that a kobald based sites is a nice way to go I used to play this list on mws and goldfished it a decent amount. Insted of draw 4s it plays goes for turn one ad nauseum. Since I wanna play a turn one bomb I stole the idea of gamble from belcher though infernal tutor may be better gamble has been great in goldfishing. and i kinda run a belcher heavy plan although i really only included one belcher because i think adnaus turn one is the better bomb. Im thinking about cutting becher and going up to around 6 or so lands and adding a couple infernal or grim tutors but I don't own any grim's and the would be annoying to trade for so I would rather not add them. I side into an "All In Red" deck after board vs matchups where they board out creature removal.

4 dark ritual
4 rite of flame
4 manamorphase
4 ssg
4 petal
4 culling the weak
8 kobalds
3 ad naus
4 burning whish
1 tendrils
4 led
4 gamble
4 mox
4 land grant
1 belcher

1 badlands
1 bayou
1 tiaga

side
1 etw
1 tendrils
1 draw 4
1 diminshing returns
1 duress
1 shattering spree
1 IGG
4 tombstalker
4 arcslogger

[Vacrix]

Are there any drafts yet for a non-Land Grant manabase?
Well for which build? Playing with D7's has proven to me that it doesn't need LG but it would have to be build specific (ie. which D7, Burning Wish or Slithermuse). 2 Fetch 2 Dual seems good, but Dryad Arbor needs to fit in somewhere... 1 Badlands, 1 Bayou, Bayou for Swarm, Badlands for Burning Wish. If we don't run Burning Wish.. then maybe Underground Sea could replace Badlands (so we can color fix for Slithermuse builds).

People have tried Deathwish. 3cc is just too much. Often you will be short 1 when you wouldn't be otherwise.

I was thinking the same thing. Dryad Arbor could be moved to the board. Then again, we can also run Skyshroud Cutter. If we have already made our land drop then this is a 0cc green creature for Culling. Also, Dosan the Falling Leaf doesn't look bad. Pulpfiction played with Living Wish in Belcher for a while. His thoughts (from Stormboards):

My opinion on Living Wish: it is worth testing out and seeing if you like it, but it does not improve the blue matchups like Moons will. However, it gives the deck a sick threat density and you are now able to attack the opponent from a variety of different angles.

He played the following LW board:

1x Deus/Multani/Kodama
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Ingot Chewer
1x Gargoyle Castle

Magus and Ingot Chewer are the strongest choices it brings to the table IMO. I can't see Castle or Deus and friends doing much and his tournament reports allude to just that (though Multani looks great).

Now we have access to:
Hellcarver Demon (likely too expensive)
Slithermuse (D7)
Dosan (protection)
Dryad Arbor (Culling fodder)
Skyshroud Cutter (Culling fodder)
Ingot Chewer (artifcat hate)
Magus of the Moon (protection)
Xantid Swarm (standard in the board anyway)
Tomb of Urami (we know this is good)
Eternal Witness (regrowth)
Multani (I actually like this guy. Shroud fatties are awesome)

Other ideas? The main reason to play it at all is Slithermuse.

Bloodmoon effects really do have my attention though. Might they be worth playing in SITES?

EDIT:
Might Telemin Performance be worth running in the board?

EDIT2:
@Combo Winter
Gamble is a terrible card in everything but 43 land variants where you can find Loam or something.

Its certainly not SI if it doesn't run D4's. Its not a bad idea but I have no testing to confirm either way. Whats your goldfish rate? Its another protectionless combo so if its not faster than 70% turn 1, I don't see a reason to play it over the fastest lists of Pact SI. Also, if you are running Diminish Returns as a D7, you might as well also play Balance of Power and Recurring Insight, which are marginally better in certain situations.

[BreathWeapon]

Skyshroud Cutter seems really good, granted you have to have a Land Grant/Bayou and +3 Storm, but a free creatures that doesn't require a land drop looks awesome in theory.

As far as the land count is concerned, I think 2xBayou and X /g Fetch is the way to go, you may actually want to cut back on Spirit Guides to fit in more Fetch.

SITES manabase is just 3 Badlands and 4 Fetchlands.

[Vacrix]

I played a round of 3 for fun at my local shop today with a build I was testing:

Pact SI:
Business:
3 Tendrils of Agony
2 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain


Mana:
1 Odious Trow
4 Manamorphose
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

SB:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Tomb of Urami

In short, it wasn't that great:

Match 1 (Matt w/ UW Tempo)
Game 1, I mulligan to 4 cards (probably should have kept my opening 7) and try to go for IGG before he has the kill it eats a grip full of counters.
Game 2, I play Xantid Swarm and pass. He plays Thorn, I can't go off and lose.

Afterwards, I played 3 games with him and won all 3. I feel much more comfortable with the matchup now even though its pretty difficult. Postboard he has a lot of hate for SI. Chrome Moxen were key in going off more than once (his wasteland eats my Bayou almost every game) and I was often just baiting with D4's and then winning by resolving a Belcher, pass, until I could activate it. I think its best to keep your 7 cards hand against UW Tempo that way you have more resources to make multiple attempts at going off. I lost to him last tournament 2-0 too but I think the next one will go differently.

Match 2 (Jerry w/ Belcher)
Game 1: He goes first, but I have the turn 1.
Game 2: Turn 1 I chain D4's together and ToA for the win.

Match 3 (Can't remember his name w/ Countertop)
Game 1: He has Force. I try a second time, he has the 2nd Force.
Game 2: I play Bayou, Rit, D4, expecting Daze. He plays it, and I ESG in response, draw my 4, play some shit and pass (no initial black to continue). Then I have rituals into either EtW x2 or I can play a D4, so I bait with the D4, it resolves and I D4 into my x2 EtW (w/ ESGs) and he scoops.
Game 3: He has x2 Force, Goyf, Daze, and STP. I can't win through that shit.


Technically I played a 4th match, against some sort of ANT variant.
Game 1: I win turn 1 with a long D4 chain.
Game 2: I am 1 short of winning turn 1, I pass, he goes off turn 2 with Ad Nauseum.
Game 3: I start chaining D4's together and I break an LED off a D4 into LED, Pact, Dark Ritual Land Grant. Unfortunately I was not playing Eternal Witness so I lost.


Conclusion? I really like Empty the Warrens and I think its possible to play it in the board. I thought I need SSG to get to the red more often, but that wasn't the case. I didn't really need it because I had Manamorphose and Petal as color fixers. I really wanted Eternal Witness too.. I'll be switching back to the old build for now, at least until I get my hands on all the D7's. Then I can test that build more thoroughly (and against real players). I also got a little bit more experience against UW Tempo, which I think will go a long way considering that it is gaining in popularity.

EDIT:
I'm really liking the idea of more staying mana sources. If I recall, Belcher used to play BoP way back in the day to help it set up. Might that be worth playing in the board? I really do enjoy having access to mana each turn. This might be a decent option considering it is also a possible Culling target.

[the resurrection]

EDIT:
I'm really liking the idea of more staying mana sources. If I recall, Belcher used to play BoP way back in the day to help it set up. Might that be worth playing in the board? I really do enjoy having access to mana each turn. This might be a decent option considering it is also a possible Culling target.

A really interesting option for this problem would be Ancient Stirrings (http://www.magiccards.info/roe/en/174.html) from the new set. I tested this card in the manamorphose/protection slot of the B/G list and it works like a Ponder, which can dig 5 cards.
Ancient Stirrings harmonize very well with the draw4s, beacause sometimes it is very nice to know what are you drawing or manipulate your draw. Of course all our colourless spells become better and especially belcher (removing bayou from the top/ possibility of drawing is higher/LED) and the shuffle effects (pact/Land grant) becomming more important.
The probability to reveal a colorless spells is around 70% and another negativ aspect is that sometimes it can you slow down.

I'll test more with this card, maybe it's better in g2 or g3 and belongs just to the SB.

[Vacrix]

A really interesting option for this problem would be Ancient Stirrings (http://www.magiccards.info/roe/en/174.html) from the new set. I tested this card in the manamorphose/protection slot of the B/G list and it works like a Ponder, which can dig 5 cards.
Ancient Stirrings harmonize very well with the draw4s, beacause sometimes it is very nice to know what are you drawing or manipulate your draw. Of course all our colourless spells become better and especially belcher (removing bayou from the top/ possibility of drawing is higher/LED) and the shuffle effects (pact/Land grant) becomming more important.
The probability to reveal a colorless spells is around 70% and another negativ aspect is that sometimes it can you slow down.

I'll test more with this card, maybe it's better in g2 or g3 and belongs just to the SB.
That sounds pretty good. Investing G to grab an LED is tech. The only problem is that we won't always be able to grab LED. G into Lotus Petal is mediocre. Also, you can't really manipulate your draw because all the cards go to the bottom.

I'm very interesting in running Fetchlands. It gives us the resources to go off multiple times which is particularly important against control. Sure Belcher is a great plan but I think Fetchlands will win more games in the long run. In which case, we could run Ponder instead of Ancient Stirrings. The question is, what would a fetchland configuration look in Pact SI? I agree with Breathweapon that we should cut some Spirit Guides:
-2 Elvish Spirit Guide
-4 Land Grant
+4 Polluted Delta
+1 Underground Sea
+1 Bayou

Maybe we could run x1 Tropical Island in the board.




Also, secret tech I discovered from playing Jerry (the belcher dude). He ran Living Wish-->Salvager. Salvager + LED is infinite mana so he ran Pyrite Spellbomb maindeck. I don't know how good this is but infinite mana with LED (which is also infinite spells, seems pretty good to me).

Why would we play Spellbomb? It can draw a card randomly.. but more importantly, it can kill Hate bears like Ethersworn Cannonist.

[the resurrection]

he only problem is that we won't always be able to grab LED. Also, you can't really manipulate your draw because all the cards go to the bottom.

Ancient Stirrings has many uses

Example:
-you can cast a Draw4, but you start with Ancient Stirrings-> view your 5 cards, you see 4 ESG and chrome mox (crap that you would draw), take mox and hope for more useful for cards.
- If you have put actually good cards on the bottom, use pact/LG to increase the possibilty to draw them again.
- If you just reveal coloured spells which contains crap, shuffle them also away
- Chrome mox profits, if your opponent starts with wastland-> go
- It gives you Information how to plan your next turns


G into Lotus Petal is mediocre.
true, but
- Stirrings can become a wild cantor (G->B)
-you can decide to draw petal, or not

@ fetchlands PactQSI sounds interesting, but why it should be better than ANT ?
@ Slavager 4 colours make you more vulnerable to counter.

[Vacrix]

It can color fix, that is true. We don't run too many colorless sources though. Ponder would be better if we had access to fetchlands and blue.

Why play PactQSI (we don't have a build yet so I can't say for sure)? We will likely be faster, and have a higher threat density so we can go off multiple times much sooner than ANT can.

Salvager would be primarily a Living Wish target if you have LED. There isn't really a point to grabbing it unless you already have access to white, and Pyrite Spellbomb. Its a little farfetched I admit, but some dude plays it and claims moderate success with it. I'm certainly going to try it.

[BreathWeapon]

Chromatic Sphere > Spellbombs for the Salvager combo, you can always draw infinite cards into Burning Wish for Tendrils of Agony, and the Spheres actually serve a purpose while comboing normally.

[TheSleeper]

Would have liked a 'next time my SB would be' from Vacrix.

I'm guessing:
4 Xantid, 4 EtW, 1 Manamorphose (-1 MD, +1 EW), 3 Tomb of Urami, 3 ???

[Philipp2293]

My current list is:

/ Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [R] Badlands
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [R] Bayou

// Creatures
2 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
1 [GP] Wild Cantor
1 [MOR] Slithermuse
1 [EVE] Odious Trow

// Spells
4 [EX] Culling the Weak
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
4 [FUT] Summoner's Pact
3 [PT] Cruel Bargain
4 [MI] Infernal Contract
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [JU] Burning Wish
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [ROE] Recurring Insight
SB: 1 [P3] Balance of Power
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 4 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [PT] Virtue's Ruin

Some thoughts:

-) With B Wish and Infernal Tutor, both 1 IGG MD and SB seem to add consistency.

-) I replaced the SSG with Chrome Moxen, as they allow you to go off easier multiple times. I never had troubles with imprinting something, also with Trow/Cantor, you can colorfix with Pact and Chrome Mox for all colors you need (except Slithermuse).

-) I keep switching between Eternal Witness and Trow.

-) In the SB I run 1 Virtues Ruin, cause I hate folding to white hatebears. If the oponent excessively mulls into a bear, this could give you some time to draw B Wish -> Virtues Ruin -> Go off.

Your thoughts?

[BreathWeapon]

You may want to consider Death Wish instead of Burning Wish, being on color reduces the need for Manamorphose and the life loss isn't the end of the world, I liked it a lot more than Infernal Tutor in testing.

[Vacrix]

Would have liked a 'next time my SB would be' from Vacrix.

I'm guessing:
4 Xantid, 4 EtW, 1 Manamorphose (-1 MD, +1 EW), 3 Tomb of Urami, 3 ???

It really depends. I'm itching to try out the D7's. All I need right now is x1 Diminishing Returns, x1 Balance of Power, and x1 Slithermuse. I picked up Recurring Insight the other day. If I played the same build I played at Knightware, I'd probably play this board:
SB:
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Xantid Swarm
2 Belcher
2 Birds of Paradise
1 Taiga
2 Tomb of Urami

Certainly it looks unconventional. I think that having lands against control is crucial to SI's strategy. The extra land can go a long way when you are trying to go off more than once, bait with D4's into EtW, bait with Swarm into EtW, etc. Having staying resources is a great asset. We can recover quickly from a countered D4. Its much more difficult when we are required to draw starting mana, rituals, and business. From playing Matt (Forbiddian) I discovered that Belcher is actually really good in SI. Sure D4 chain into Tendrils is pretty awesome. In the games in which I had Chrome Mox and/or lands I was able to burst through Matt's wall of countermagic with Belcher, and then activate it on the following turn. Its worth noting, though, that we were only playing pre-board games after I lost the 2 that counted. UW Tempo gets much harder when they bring in the hate bears and Etutor plan. Still, Belcher is a strong strategy when you bait them out of their countermagic. I am apprehensive about boarding in Belchers AND land because its obviously a little counter intuitive. Still, Land Grant--> Taiga provides more red for EtW. The only other option we have is to try something like Birds of Paradise which doesn't increase our land count, but provides not only mana of any color but also a Culling outlet. It looks stronger the more I look at it. I think Tomb is great, but nowadays people know the Storm combo matchup and leave in their removal in for Swarm, in the process, ruining the Tomb plan. Tomb is only good in my experience against Mono-U Merfolk or U/g Merfolk. I'd suggest running x2 unless you have a very heavy Merfolk meta.

It should be noted, however, that this plan is horrid with the lands build we are currently exploring. This would be my sideboard until I get my hands on the duals necessary to test the maindeck lands.


Chromatic Sphere > Spellbombs for the Salvager combo, you can always draw infinite cards into Burning Wish for Tendrils of Agony, and the Spheres actually serve a purpose while comboing normally.

Agreed. But is it even worth playing is the question? A spell that costs 1 to draw us a card and converts mana? It could be played in the Manamorphose slot if Living Wish is any good. I like the idea because we have so much access to green especially if we play something like MD Chromatic Sphere (or Chromatic Star). The problem with Living Wish is that it can't find a win condition but this is not the case if your hand includes LED, Living Wish, and Chromatic Sphere. If not, we can go for Slithermuse in an attempt to find the rest of the pieces to find Salvagers OR we can just go for Tendrils, start a D4 chain, etc.


My current list is:

/ Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [R] Badlands
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [R] Bayou

// Creatures
2 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
1 [GP] Wild Cantor
1 [MOR] Slithermuse
1 [EVE] Odious Trow

// Spells
4 [EX] Culling the Weak
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
4 [FUT] Summoner's Pact
3 [PT] Cruel Bargain
4 [MI] Infernal Contract
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [JU] Burning Wish
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [ROE] Recurring Insight
SB: 1 [P3] Balance of Power
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 4 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [PT] Virtue's Ruin

Some thoughts:

-) With B Wish and Infernal Tutor, both 1 IGG MD and SB seem to add consistency.

-) I replaced the SSG with Chrome Moxen, as they allow you to go off easier multiple times. I never had troubles with imprinting something, also with Trow/Cantor, you can colorfix with Pact and Chrome Mox for all colors you need (except Slithermuse).

-) I keep switching between Eternal Witness and Trow.

-) In the SB I run 1 Virtues Ruin, cause I hate folding to white hatebears. If the oponent excessively mulls into a bear, this could give you some time to draw B Wish -> Virtues Ruin -> Go off.

Your thoughts?


Actually I think the deck works better with 8 D4s. There are very few occasions in which I wish for a D4 and more often than not in this build, I find myself short on business after D4's. Its much harder to chain D4's together when you only run 7 MD.

I also liked IGG postboard, but also maindeck? In the case that you are trying the IGG loop, you will likely have an LED post Infernal Tutor in which case Slithermuse into 7 new cards looks like a strong alternative. I think that slot might be put to better use, probably as a 3rd ESG as you want that Daze protection and access to green postboard for Xantid Swarm.

Have you ever had issues color fixing? I like that Pact-->Cantor imprint on Chrome Mox can also give you access to red. Thats pretty badass. I like Witness. With additional land maindeck, it looks like it would be a nice set up card since you will have the perpetual resources to set up. It might be worth playing in that IGG slot actually.

Virtue's Ruin looks decent with the extra land. It conveniently hits all the bears that might give us trouble. Consider, though, that all the bears have 2 toughness. Why not play pyroclasm? It also helps when you are in the Belcher Mirror facing down EtW tokens and can't go off in time, or are kinda stuck against aggro.

I think you did the land configuration correctly. Thats how I would play it. Now I just need to find myself a badlands.

Considering that this build enables us to set up now more often than the other builds, its certainly worth exploring Duress/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy postboard as a supplement to EtW. Cabal Therapy looks the best if we also play Birds of Paradise as a perpetual manasource and therefore also a resource to work with Culling and Therapy.


You may want to consider Death Wish instead of Burning Wish, being on color reduces the need for Manamorphose and the life loss isn't the end of the world, I liked it a lot more than Infernal Tutor in testing.
I'm confused. You said consider Death Wish instead of Burning Wish but that Death Wish was better than Infernal Tutor in testing. Wouldn't in then make sense to replace Infernal Tutor with Death Wish?
Considering that we have access to D7's now, we have much better resources to find with Death Wish. I haven't tested it yet in Pact SI with D7's but it looks pretty strong. Running Burning Wish and Death Wish means that we will usually be going to our board for goodies. Then again, if we run a maindeck Slithermuse, then Infernal Tutor also lets you access D7's for 1 less than Death Wish does.



EDIT:

Skyshroud Cutter seems really good, granted you have to have a Land Grant/Bayou and +3 Storm, but a free creatures that doesn't require a land drop looks awesome in theory.
I realized something. It doesn't make much sense to go for Cutter with Living Wish when you can just get a Kobold. :P

[TheSleeper]

How do we deal with white hate bears (Teeg, Canonist)? I was thinking about Death Mark (unless Mother of Runes is already out as well, then you're kinda screwed I guess).

[Vacrix]

How do we deal with white hate bears (Teeg, Canonist)? I was thinking about Death Mark (unless Mother of Runes is already out as well, then you're kinda screwed I guess).
Well it depends on the matchup. In the aggro matchup, you usually win game 1, and then they board in their bears. They usually go first which is their mistake if they actually know the matchup. We can go off pretty often with 8 cards in hand. If we don't win game 2, which we should, then we should let them go first again and try to win game 3. Seriously though, non-distruptive aggro is a virtual bye. Just win first.

Decks like UW Tempo are seriously an absolute bitch. I used to treat it like Merfolk. Don't. The Etutor package is really, really strong. They can follow up countermagic with a lock piece. Cannonist is seeing way more play than anything else. Thorn also sees some play. In general, Oxidize is the right board card, if you want to play anything at all to beat bears. Ingot Chewer looks just as good though if not better with the lands version. I'd give both a try. Goldfish the postboard plan on MWS or IRL and just assume that your opponent will drop a bear on turn 2. If you want, you can assume your opponent has Daze/Force and the bear (like if you were playing against UW Tempo or Bant Survival).

[Philipp2293]

Actually I think the deck works better with 8 D4s. There are very few occasions in which I wish for a D4 and more often than not in this build, I find myself short on business after D4's. Its much harder to chain D4's together when you only run 7 MD.

I also liked IGG postboard, but also maindeck? In the case that you are trying the IGG loop, you will likely have an LED post Infernal Tutor in which case Slithermuse into 7 new cards looks like a strong alternative. I think that slot might be put to better use, probably as a 3rd ESG as you want that Daze protection and access to green postboard for Xantid Swarm.

Have you ever had issues color fixing? I like that Pact-->Cantor imprint on Chrome Mox can also give you access to red. Thats pretty badass. I like Witness. With additional land maindeck, it looks like it would be a nice set up card since you will have the perpetual resources to set up. It might be worth playing in that IGG slot actually.

Virtue's Ruin looks decent with the extra land. It conveniently hits all the bears that might give us trouble. Consider, though, that all the bears have 2 toughness. Why not play pyroclasm? It also helps when you are in the Belcher Mirror facing down EtW tokens and can't go off in time, or are kinda stuck against aggro.

I think you did the land configuration correctly. Thats how I would play it. Now I just need to find myself a badlands.

Considering that this build enables us to set up now more often than the other builds, its certainly worth exploring Duress/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy postboard as a supplement to EtW. Cabal Therapy looks the best if we also play Birds of Paradise as a perpetual manasource and therefore also a resource to work with Culling and Therapy.


I'm confused. You said consider Death Wish instead of Burning Wish but that Death Wish was better than Infernal Tutor in testing. Wouldn't in then make sense to replace Infernal Tutor with Death Wish?
Considering that we have access to D7's now, we have much better resources to find with Death Wish. I haven't tested it yet in Pact SI with D7's but it looks pretty strong. Running Burning Wish and Death Wish means that we will usually be going to our board for goodies. Then again, if we run a maindeck Slithermuse, then Infernal Tutor also lets you access D7's for 1 less than Death Wish does.



-) I have to try the 8 D4s in the MD again, but I guess you're right, as a wish-less version with 8 MD ran smoother (but could also have had other reasons.

-) No, I think IGG really deserves it's slot. IT into Slithermuse is nuts and all, but the win is often dependent on what you draw with Slithermuse, but really often the IGG-loop is enough for a guaranteed win.

-) Colorfixing is rarely an issue, between 4 manamorphose, 4 chrome mox and 4 pact to get Cantor or Odious Trow to set Mox to all colors, I rarely had problems. Actually I'm running a Trow instead of the Witness now, often it's the better choice, but sometimes I also wish I was running Witness.

-) Thx for the pyroclasm hint, I wonder why I didn't come up with it.

-) Burning Wish and Death Wish both? Really? This would also mean that we have to increase MD win cons or rely on wishing for a wincon, which can become quite manaintensive. But interesting thougt, have to try it.

[Vacrix]

-) I have to try the 8 D4s in the MD again, but I guess you're right, as a wish-less version with 8 MD ran smoother (but could also have had other reasons.

-) No, I think IGG really deserves it's slot. IT into Slithermuse is nuts and all, but the win is often dependent on what you draw with Slithermuse, but really often the IGG-loop is enough for a guaranteed win.

-) Colorfixing is rarely an issue, between 4 manamorphose, 4 chrome mox and 4 pact to get Cantor or Odious Trow to set Mox to all colors, I rarely had problems. Actually I'm running a Trow instead of the Witness now, often it's the better choice, but sometimes I also wish I was running Witness.

-) Thx for the pyroclasm hint, I wonder why I didn't come up with it.

-) Burning Wish and Death Wish both? Really? This would also mean that we have to increase MD win cons or rely on wishing for a wincon, which can become quite manaintensive. But interesting thougt, have to try it.

Well IGG is great but rarely do I like to draw it while going off. Slithermuse.. at least with Manamorphose and color fixing action, is a pretty happy topdeck. I've had a good amount of luck with the top 7, especially when there is mana floating. IGG might be a guarenteed win, but if Slithermuse works just as well, there isn't much of a reason to run IGG unless its to be safe (which is understandable). Are you getting jank with Slithermuse or would rather just have IGG there as a possible out? Slithermuse might not be necessary then. IGG is safer but a less reliable top deck. Adding Slithermuse into the deck at all was a suggestion purely at replacing IGG, not as a supplement. I haven't tested it enough to know either way (too much work this week) but from my limited semi-experience with it, it usually gives me a decent 5-7 cards.

If possible we should minimize the number of Manamorphose in the deck so we can fit in more business spells. I was thinking about replacing a few MM's with a few SSG's. Then you have more Daze protection, and access to red for Burning Wish and EtW. It might be better than trying to directly color fix when you can just add the mana with SSG, though I like having my D4's be D5's.

I don't think its a good idea to run Burning Wish and Death Wish, but I was questioning what Breathweapon actually meant in his post. Either we should try to replace BW with DW, or replaced IT with DW. Either way, I'm not the biggest fan of Death Wish so I'll leave it to others to test that.

Null Profusion still intrigues me. Emidln said a while back that it was good as a 1 of and that if you dropped it, you usually one. Maybe it could replace Belcher in the land builds.

Also, now that we are running lands. Crop Rotation can act as a color fixer (CR, sac Bayou-->Badlands), thins the deck (CR, sac Bayou-->Fetch-->Badlands), and can act as a Culling target (CR, sac Bayou--> Dryad Arbor). With more land, CR might be worth considering. It will be a dead card without land, but when we start chaining D4's together, we will likely run into some lands.

[Philipp2293]

@Vacrix: Hows testing with the Living Wish list going?

[Vacrix]

Not testing yet. Just hypothesizing so I have something good on paper to work with. I'm rather busy with school right now. I've been talking about it alot with different magic peeps to explore different avenues. I've concluded to at some point test a list like this:

Pact SI w/ LW:
Business:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains/Slithermuse
4 Living Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain

Mana:
1 Odious Trow
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

SB:
1 Tinderwall
1 Crimson Kobold
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Slithermuse
1 Auriok Salvagers
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Empty the Warrens

Such a list would be really tricky to put together. Its intriguing though to say the least. Feel free to play test it on MWS. I'm not sure how to split up the manasources now that we are trying to run land in the Pact list. More Chrome Mox? Or more ESG? We need ESG to play Living Wish but we like Chrome Mox against control.

[TheSleeper]

The times I've goldfished with Null Profusion I haven't really liked it. The few times I've had it at a relevant time, it would have been better as a IGG/Slithermuse. It usually uses most of my cards to get 6 mana, and even if I've had 1-2 cards left, the engine can randomly stall.

[Vacrix]

Agreed. It can stall. The advantage, though, is if you can play it out (much like Belcher) it has inevitability. I think that its now outdated tech when we have access to Draw7's for about the same mana.

[Forbiddian]

Old news, but how does this work?


Agreed. Meditate is better in certain situations though. Namely, if you play staying mana sources like Chrome Mox and Land, you can play it at the end of your opponents turn, and then go off on your turn with 11 cards in hand.

You skip your next turn with Meditate, which is what keeps the card balanced.

[Vacrix]

Yes. Either Meditate eats a counter, you untap and go off, or they will let Meditate resolve, take the extra turn, and then you can go off with a full grip. This would be much harder against a player who can apply various sorts of pressure ie. threatening countermagic and perma hate and a reasonable clock. Its honestly a tough call though for a control player. Going off with 10-11 cards in hand means you will likely threaten 2 draw spells, and in certain versions (like QSI) a protection spell. Its not as great of a play though if your opponent is threatening a devastating 2nd combat step, which can happen when you are facing down Goyf and friends.

EDIT:
Also, if your opponent counters Meditate, he might be tapped out and therefore unable to counter anything else after a full turn of playing spells and then a counter at the end of turn.

EDIT2:
Also, keep in mind that the decks that abuse Meditate the best (QSI) have staying mana sources like land to facilitate that play. Having 11 cards in hand is extremely powerful when you can manipulate the card quality of that hand with Ponders//Brainstorms + Fetchlands and then go off. Such manipulation is much harder in builds without perpetual resources. QSI is really the best place for Meditate because it runs land, cantrips, and all the goodies of SI. Its just a little bit slower than I'd like it to be. In a control heavy meta, I'd certainly play it over Pact SI. In fact, I've been wanting to switch to that build for quite some time. All I need is those elusive Underground Seas and the deck is complete.

[Vacrix]

I went 2-4 at Knightware, playing against Zoo, Dredge, Painter/Stone, Rogue, Zoo, Reanimator. Almost all of my matchups were extremely close. I made a few misplays (I haven't played SI in a few months) but mostly I just lost to Lady Luck. I'll post a comprehensive report when I have more time. Lots of school work to take care of this week.

[TheSleeper]

Keen on reading your report as well as a 'if I played tomorrow' list Vacrix!

[Vacrix]

I guess I'll write up the tournament report today, while its still relatively fresh.

To begin, it was a really fun day. I enjoyed the hell out of my list, even though it proved to be a little unlucky. I played the following list. Basically the exact same MD as last time (except -1 IGG, +1 Slithermuse), but with a slightly different board:

Pact SI:
Business:
2 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Slithermuse
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain

Mana:
1 Eternal Witness
1 Odious Trow
2 Manamorphose
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

SB:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Tomb of Urami
4 Carpet of Flowers
3 Unmask

REPORT:
Match 1, Oliver (Suapchai) w/ Zoo.
Game 1, I steam roll him with a turn 1 Draw4 chain into ToA.
Game 2, I mulligan to 5 cards (though I should have kept my initial 7 in hindsight). I am on the draw so I draw, with a hand like ESG, Petal, MM, D4, Ritual, D4. I manage to pull off a pretty good chain of spells, but I have ToA in hand, 1 short of the win. I pass, he bolts me twice and I lose.
Game 3, I keep a great opening 7, and win turn 1.
2-1
(1-0)

Match 2, Kyle w/ Dredge.
I played this guy before and I know he was either playing Dredge or an ANT variant. Either way, I knew I had to steal the win quickly.
Game 1, My initial 7 was utter crap. I threw it back for a even shittier 6, and played with a no-business hand of 5 cards on the draw. We play draw go for a little while. I'm one card short of going off, anything would help really, but he gets off a good dredge and reanimates Iona to seal the game.
Game 2, I have a great opening hand. I begin chaining D4's together, anticipating either an Unmask on his turn or a FoW on mine. Eventually I get up to 9 storm and 4 mana. I cast ToA for 20 and he has the Force. He goes to 1. Unfortunately, I had already played Summoner's Pact...but fortunately I had an LED, so I nuked my hand in my upkeep and sat their with a Chrome Mox (black) for a few turns, while I assembled a winning hand of Pact, LED, Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor. He had mulliganed to 5 for that hand so I was in a pretty good position after his FoW.
Game 3, I start the D4 chain and run out of gas, barely. I was B short of the win, yet again. As I try to rebuild, we play draw go for a while until he gets the resources he needs to go off. He has quite a few cards in hand when I lose, having the resources for FoW.
1-2
(1-1)

Match 3, UR Painter/Grindstone.dec
This guy was a terrible player. He admitted it himself actually. In fact, he was the same guy that at the last Knightware tournament, tried to Chain of Vapor his Grindstone in response to FoW... He had no idea what I was playing or how to play against it; a huge asset.
Game 1, He let Slithermuse resolve early via MM + Dark Ritual, refilling my hand to 6 cards (it was a draw 4 essentially). I played a bunch of lands, and Chrome Moxen over the next few turns. I try to resolve Belcher, and it gets countered. He gets out his Painter's Servant and his Grindstone, and turns off my Bayou with a Magus. I try to go off with 4 cards in hand, chaining the D4's together. I abuse LED tricks with Eternal Witness to get business back from the grave. I get a madly good D4 into LED x2, Infernal Tutor, Dark Ritual. Unfortunately, he turned off my Bayou so I was completely out of black sources, and lost on the following turn. Very close game though.
Game 2, I resolve an early Carpet of Flowers which winds up producing 1 a turn for a few turns, but eventually produces 2 per turn. It was very useful in try to resolve D4s. At some point, I think I have him, so I attempt to go off, I have plenty of resources in hand, and on the board, but I lose next turn to his combo. He lets my D4's resolve (I have plenty of resources), and then he tries to counter ToA for 26. He doesn't realize that the storm copies still go on the stack and loses. There wasn't much he could have done anyway though. I had ALOT of resources on the board.
Game 3, I resolve an early Xantid Swarm off an ESG, with Culling the Weak, Chrome Mox, D4, LED, and Belcher in hand. So I basically have the win next turn as I draw a Land Grant. Unfortunately, he bounces by Swarm on his turn with Chain of Vapor, and then FoW's it when I try to recast it off Land Grant. At some point later in the game, I get Belcher down, and Belch, but it misfires, dealing him only 11 or something. Then he Chain of Vapors it to my hand... I recast it again at some point but he kills me before I can activate it on the following turn. Really close games yet again.
1-2
(1-2)

Match 4, Rogue
This guy was playing an absolutely horrible deck. It was some sort of weird ass Teferi's Puzzle Box + Underworld Dreams deck. His other strategy was to donate an Immortal Coil to the opponent with Bazaar trader and then Bojuka Bog the opponent for the win. I know. Disgustingly bad. He wasn't trolling either. He thought it was really good.
Game 1, He is on the play, and gets a turn 1 Hymn taking 2 mana sources. I'm afraid of more discard so I try to go off. Unfortunately, I'm just one mana away from the win, and die to my Summoner's Pact on the following turn. Pathetic I know..
Game 2, I have a decent hand, but it just needs one piece to go off. I lay down the Chrome Mox, and the LED, and pass. He plays turn 1 Dark Ritual, SSG, Teferi's Puzzle box. I draw, and then put all my cards on the bottom, and draw a hand with something like Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, and Land Grant. So I play them out, find Belcher, and Pass. I Belch on the following turn for the win.
Game 3, He plays mountain, turn 1 Winds of Change. I draw a new 7, go off and win.
2-1
(2-2)

Match 5, Zoo w/ MD Teeg
Game 1, I have a great turn 2/3 hand with Belcher. I know he is playing Zoo so I get WAY too comfortable. Instead of playing Belcher, and passing into LED, I play my first Land Grant, looking for Dryad Arbor, and wait a turn. He plays turn 2 Teeg (having played first), and I can't win. Play mistake...
Game 2, I have a great hand, but he has Mindbreak Trap AND Teeg.. Lame.
0-2
(2-3)

Match 6, Reanimator
Game 1 is terribly one sided. He plays first, Underground Sea, pass, EOT Entomb. I play LED, pass, planning to go off on the next turn. He plays Exhume getting Iona, and I fold, unable to deal with his shit. However, I trick him into thinking I'm playing Dredge by just playing the LED. He doesn't know how to board against me.
Game 2, I get some D4's off, but my Belcher gets countered. I have a lot of perpetual resources so I keep trying to resolve my D4's which meet Daze's (no ESG's). Eventually I get off Belcher and get him down to a very low amount of life. He Chain of Vapors it in response though. I try to recast it, and it meets a FoW. Eventually I start beating him to death with Dryad Arbor, and he is unable to Reanimate his Iona for the win (his life total is too low). Eventually I get ESG down and just start swinging. Then he topdecks Mystical Tutor and finds Exhume, while at 1 life. He plays it, but I crack LED in response and put Slithermuse into my grave. I now have 2 creatures to his one, and win during my next attack step. We were both at 1 prior to this play. Seriously one of the most epic games I've ever played.
Game 3, I get the turn 1 Belcher down and activate. I misfire dealing him 15 or something, and he is unable to play reanimate again. He Chain of Vapors my Belcher and we play the counterwars again. I'm stuck without any lands for quite some time. We trade my business for his counters for quite some time until he assembles the win. Really close game again.
1-2
(2-4)

Conclusion? I was 1 short of winning SO many times, it was ridiculous. Carpet of Flowers was a decent board card and Slithermuse was a great replacement for IGG. I did notice that the longer games take, the worse Slithermuse gets. Its really good in the early turns of the game, and mediocre later on. I had a few Eternal Witness lines of play. There was one hand in which I really wanted to Pact-->Wild Cantor + ESG to get the initial black mana. Other than that, Trow was used more often.
I lost 2 games to play mistakes, and a few to just being out played. I think that the Dredge and Reanimator matchups can be difficult when the players are skilled. My opponent knew what they were doing. If I were to do it again, I might try playing some number of Planar Voids in place of some number of Tomb of Urami's, but likely 4 for 4. Tomb is great in one matchup these days; Merfolk. There wasn't much Merfolk this or last time so I should have anticipated that and played 4 Void.

EDIT:
Also, it seems like Echoing Truth is seeing way more play for EtW tokens and such. I think we should drop Tomb from the board entirely.

[TheSleeper]

I have seen a few bit of Echoing Truth as well, although how many would leave it in/side it in Game 2 before they know you have Tomb of Urami? And if they did have ET, then they'll just bounce your Planar Void anyways. Also doesn't Void mean no IGG/Eternal Witness action? Is being able to recast Planar Void worth it being symmetrical and costing 1 (as opposed to Leyline)?

Cheers for the report & bad beats in some games. I was asking about white hate bears (teeg, canonist) recently - could you see Deathmark replacing Tomb of Urami?

[Vacrix]

I'm sure they will just board in Truth anyway in anticipation of EtW or something like that postboard. Planar Void is specifically used as grave hate. Ichorid has a lot of trouble playing around it, AND preventing me from going off. I am not running IGG right now anyway so thats not really affected. Considering its a postboard card too.. I can just board out Ewit. I think Void is better because even if it gets bounced, its extremely easy to replay. Its hardly an investment at all and its a bomb against quite a few decks. As for the Leyline being asymetrical, symetry shuts down Goyf. When your opponent can't get stuff into his grave, your grave can still feed his Goyfs. This is key against Thresh. If you go, Land/Chrome Mox --> Void, Thresh is playing with 0/1 Goyfs and 1/1 Geese. Seems pretty good to me. I'll give it a try next time.

Death Mark could replace Tomb but IDK. I don't usually have to race a hatebear so I didn't bother with it until recently.

[PanderAlexander]

Hey Ben (Vacrix), I was your round 6 reanimator player and what epic games they were, good plays from both of us. Your round 5 zoo opponent was my friend and he's new to legacy, with a set of gaddock teeg and mindbreak traps that's a lot of hate but he had no idea what you were playing, he told me bw homebrew and failed to mention charbelcher. If he had told me BW with charbelcher I would have known you were Spanish Inquisition but instead when we played I kept calling your deck homebrew, and in the 2nd game I didn't side in any of my pithing needle or null rods. But I ended up playing against a very good player with a good deck, it was fun.

[Vacrix]

Yo, I forgot your name, sorry. Alexander I guess? Yeah our games were pretty legit man. When you were saying Homebrew, I didn't think you actually were talking about BW Homebrew. By homebrew, I thought you were referring to 'my own build of something', in this case, SI. I actually don't even play white. I guess he saw a Bayou and put me on Homebrew. A new player might make that mistake. Those games were definitely some of the best I've played in the tournament scene. Next time I will have Planar Voids ready for you and the Dredge players.



Aside, I think I'm going to keep my Carpet of Flowers in the board. They weren't back breakingly good but they are a perpetual resource that facilitates multiple attempts at going off and color fix.

Now I'm considering going down a route that Belcher players have tried: Goblin Welder (in place of Tomb of Urami). Its completely nuts when trying to play around Countermagic. You counter my Belcher? No problem I have a Welder for that. You can even Weld back LED's to interact with Infernal Tutor, D4's, Burning Wish, etc. I would have to run 4 Belcher for this plan to work more effectively, but I've played a 4 Belcher, 1 ToA configuration before and its pretty good. Thoughts on this approach?

[TheSleeper]

Death Mark could replace Tomb but IDK. I don't usually have to race a hatebear so I didn't bother with it until recently.

Just brainstorming here but other options along this line might include Ghastly Demise, Vendetta and Slaughter Pact. If we wanted something for this slot, which one gets the nod?

[Vacrix]

Depends really. Slaughter Pact is excellent if we assemble the resources to win on THAT turn (or Belch in the upkeep). People have run Death Mark in the past though. In general, though, I'd prefer to play Oxidize/Ingot Chewer because I run into Cannonist and Thorn more often than anything else. However, many decks run Teeg now. For example, some Survival builds run Teeg AND countermagic, which can be a real bitch. In that case, maybe Death Mark is worth considering.

[Grumpollion]

Would Dream Salvage be any good in combination with IGG?

[Vacrix]

It could work but its pretty much dead without IGG so its likely not worth it. I would be a pretty funny play though if you played IGG getting back Infernal Tutor and some rituals IT--> Dream Salvage. I'm testing Slithermuse in the IGG slot right now anyway and I absolutely love it.

[Vacrix]

With the banning of Mystical Tutor, I think its safe to assume that aggro will dominate the metagame in the near-future. I think SI variants can fill the ANT niche (less combo means less hate). I think I'm going to start putting together QSI now that Underground Seas are probably going to fly off the shelves. Any thoughts on the meta shift?

[Gocho]

Can somebody post any link where I can read about the different style of play of the versions of SI?

I know that there are SI, PactSI, QSI, and some other variants, but I don't know any more except the lists and which cards make a list and another.

I'm thinking about getting 4 Cruel Bargains and the Draw 7 but I didn't test the deck enough. The older primer is off and I think that the deck born in MTGSalvation, not in TheSource.

[Vacrix]

Well I guess re-reading the thread is a mish. All of the versions have been discussed throughout. Emidln really ought to update the primer (and I've asked him to).

This was the last SITES list that Breathweapon suggested. I think its a pretty solid list, except I might play Cabal Therapy over Duress.

3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Cruel Bargain
3 Infernal Contract
4 Duress
7 Kobolds
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
7 Lands

BW > IT. And we can graft the D7 engine into the board. I've tested it briefly and this list is pretty dam fast. I would prefer to have MD Tendrils, but EtW goes the distance against most decks, especially when you can usually resolve it for more than 20 goblins.

SI, just SI, doesn't really see too much play anymore as far as I'm aware. I guess that would be the Land Grant list. Its considered outdated tech when you could be playing the Pact list or SITES. The Pact list, which I'm sure you are familiar with its variations, can play around Daze and packs significantly more into the deck without having to run tallmen, and instead, running Summoner's Pacts to search for either Odious Trow or Dryad Arbor. The Pact list is really flexible, so you can play it in a variety of ways. The list I currently play IRL is a Pact list:

Pact SI:
Business:
2 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Slithermuse
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain

Mana:
1 Eternal Witness
1 Odious Trow
2 Manamorphose
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

SB:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Tomb of Urami
4 Carpet of Flowers
3 Unmask

QSI is an anti-control strategy. Emidln covers it pretty well in the primer, though I think that we could innovate his list a little bit. Ponder and Slithermuse were printed after everyone stopped working on that list, so I think we could go back to discussing it now and optimize it. QSI is good against control for several reasons. The main reason is that it has a lot of business. You might counter one business spell, but it has plenty more D4's coming up to start the chain again. Adding Meditates to the mix increases the threat density in a way that IT could not: you can play Meditate at the end of your opponents turn. Now he has a difficult choice. He can counter it and you can go off untapped on your next turn with other business, or he can let it resolve, and you can go off through countermagic with 11 cards in hand. The list also plays disruption in the form of Cabal Therapy + Tall men. Also, the list plays quite a few land (9 and 2 post board) which facilitates multiple attempts at a lethal spell chain. Maybe Emidln can explain this list better. I have limited MWS experience with it, but it was a pretty solid list when I played it. I think it can be further optimized though. 4 ToA MD and 2 Badlands in the board looks suboptimal. Anyway, this is Emidln's primer list:

SI Variant Name: QSI
Major Variation: Anti-Control Strategy (everything)
Colors: B/U/r

//Maindeck
//Lands:
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
1 Swamp

//Additional Mana Sources:
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

//Ritual Effects:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak

//Tall Men:
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere

//Busted Draw:
4 Brainstorm
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
3 Meditate

//Other Business:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Tendrils of Agony

//Sideboard:
2 Badlands
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Dark Confidant
4 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild

As for the D7 versions. We are still working on finding a good one. SITES is probably your best bet ATM.

EDIT:
Added cardtags. It seems like this thread is getting way more attention now that ANT is dead.

[TheSleeper]

Great work Vacrix. Is there any sideboarding guidelines for PactSI? I don't know what to cut when boarding in! =\

[Vacrix]

Pact SI boarding

U.dec
-4 Summoner's Pact
-2 Tendrils
-1 Odious Trow
-1 Eternal Witness

+4 Carpet of Flowers
+4 Xantid Swarm

Thats the same thing I do for most blue. I've been rather lazy about figuring out how to change the other 7 slots in the board. Carpet of Flowers has been working really well though. Especially with 4 ESG. It allows me to play around Spell Pierces and Daze's and I also don't have to rely as much on finding Initial mana sources, and rituals. It also functions as a ritual on its own as you can play it in your mainphase, and then add mana in your second mainphase. Also, keep the Belchers in. Especially when you have Carpet in play, I usually bait with my D4's and then resolve a Belcher.

I'm looking into using Goblin Welder and more Belchers as a way to ignore countermagic. I need to pick me up some Welders first before I can try this out.

[Vacrix]

Pact SI boarding

U.dec
-4 Summoner's Pact
-2 Tendrils
-1 Odious Trow
-1 Eternal Witness

+4 Carpet of Flowers
+4 Xantid Swarm

Thats the same thing I do for most blue. I've been rather lazy about figuring out how to change the other 7 slots in the board. Carpet of Flowers has been working really well though. Especially with 4 ESG. It allows me to play around Spell Pierces and Daze's and I also don't have to rely as much on finding Initial mana sources, and rituals. It also functions as a ritual on its own as you can play it in your mainphase, and then add mana in your second mainphase. Also, keep the Belchers in. Especially when you have Carpet in play, I usually bait with my D4's and then resolve a Belcher.
As for the rest of the board, Tomb of Urami is pretty good against Merfolk but I find players boarding in their Echoing Truths, expecting goblin tokens, so Tomb is not really a viable strategy anymore. Also, I haven't liked Unmask much. I really need to change that slot to something else.

I'm looking into using Goblin Welder and more Belchers as a way to ignore countermagic. I need to pick me up some Welders first before I can try this out.

[death]

Would Slippery Bogle be better than Trow since you need :u: for evoking Slithermuse

[Vacrix]

Well the advantage of running Trow is not just that you can imprint it on Chrome Mox. You can cast it with spare green mana, or you can cast it with spare black ritual mana. If you really want more access to U through Summoner's Pact, Wild Cantor is a better option.

With 4 Petal and 2 Manamorphose I've found it pretty easy to hard cast. Slithermuse is more of an Infernal Tutor target anyway. I'm running it right now over IGG so if you play IT + LED then you already have the U.

Its even easier to cast postboard against control because you have access to Carpet of Flowers.

[Gocho]

Thanks Vacrix, Can I suppose that the lists speed comes in this order?

FAST <<-----PACTSI---------QSI---------SITES-----<<SLOW

Because PACTSI, can get more T1-Win with Tendrils and SITES needs T2/3-Win with Goblin Tokens if can't find BW and R1+2BB mana.

[Vacrix]

QSI vs. SITES is a pretty tough call. If we are using the lists I mentioned then I would say that SITES is still faster. You'll often get a lot of turn 2 wins if your are going for EtW as we can easily hit 10 spells. QSI wins goldfishing more often between turns 2 and 3. You could probably include Land Grant SI and Sir Speedy on that graph too, Land Grant SI being closer to Pact SI. I'm not quite sure where Sir Speedy should be. Thats the list I've tested the least but its probably faster than SITES.
The great thing about all of these lists is that there are a few flex slots that completely change the speed

[Gocho]

If PactSI is the fastest list, I'll test it a little to see how it works, but I think that it could be harder to play than TES or NLS xDD

I remember some lists without Belcher but with Crop rotation and City of Traitors to get more mana and storm, I don't know if they works ok...

EDIT:
I remember now that Crop Rotation + City was a tested tech for Instant Storm, not SI :P

[GreenOne]

Hi everybody. It's ages I'm not posting on the source, but the new B/R policy really made me want to play combo, now that the meta is going to change to non-combo decks again.

The storm decks going to suffer less from MT banning are, quite obviously, TES, SI, DD, and Solidarity.

The SI-Pact list is really too risky for my playstyle: I really hate the fizzle = lose next turn to pact thing.
The SITES list seems really good, with lots of options and bombs. I'd play a list quite similar to the one posted in this ppage, but with the lack of duress, for more bombs. However, I'm quite new to this catch on the deck (used to BC-prepact list though)

Here's the list I plan on testing:

// Lands
4 [A] Badlands
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
3 [LG] Kobolds of Kher Keep
3 [LG] Crookshank Kobolds
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [PT] Cruel Bargain
2 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [7E] Infernal Contract
4 [EX] Culling the Weak
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [A] Dark Ritual
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [JU] Burning Wish
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [10E] Deathmark
(SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot)
4 open slots

The changes MD are, basically, -1 kobold, -4 duress, +2 IT, +1 IGG, +1 Tendrils, +1 Draw4
What do you guys think about the list? Any obvious error? Is it better to run -1 IGG +1 Slithermuse/IT in the maindeck?
Any suggestion for the SB? I really don't have a clue about it.
Is the land configuration ok?

[Vacrix]

Hi everybody. It's ages I'm not posting on the source, but the new B/R policy really made me want to play combo, now that the meta is going to change to non-combo decks again.

The storm decks going to suffer less from MT banning are, quite obviously, TES, SI, DD, and Solidarity.

The SI-Pact list is really too risky for my playstyle: I really hate the fizzle = lose next turn to pact thing.
The SITES list seems really good, with lots of options and bombs. I'd play a list quite similar to the one posted in this ppage, but with the lack of duress, for more bombs. However, I'm quite new to this catch on the deck (used to BC-prepact list though)

Here's the list I plan on testing:

// Lands
4 [A] Badlands
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
3 [LG] Kobolds of Kher Keep
3 [LG] Crookshank Kobolds
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [PT] Cruel Bargain
2 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [7E] Infernal Contract
4 [EX] Culling the Weak
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [A] Dark Ritual
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [JU] Burning Wish
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [10E] Deathmark
(SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot)
4 open slots

The changes MD are, basically, -1 kobold, -4 duress, +2 IT, +1 IGG, +1 Tendrils, +1 Draw4
What do you guys think about the list? Any obvious error? Is it better to run -1 IGG +1 Slithermuse/IT in the maindeck?
Any suggestion for the SB? I really don't have a clue about it.
Is the land configuration ok?
Well the Pact list is still really good. Its just a glass house like Belcher. Also, you won't always have to use Summoner's Pact, and shouldn't unless you know you are going to win anyway. I've only killed myself with it once in all the tournaments I've played with it. It really is a mentally taxing deck to play. I've switched to playing Solidarity in my local, heavy U.dec meta.

As for your changes.. I should have included this with Breathweapon's list:

The idea here is to graft the Burning Wish/Empty the Warrens/Simian Spirit Guide engine on top of the Draw 4s to force your opponent to counter the acceleration or face an army of Goblins. The main difference is cutting Infernal Tutor (IMO the worst engine in Storm) and replace it with Burning Wish to reach a Recurring Insight, Balance of Power or Diminishing Returns as suplimental engines while getting the normal Empty the Warrens and Draw 4 to start the chain. While I still think Pact SI has an advantage in the sense it's creature slots double as "counter target Daze" and help cast Cabal Ritual, SITES works in a similar sense by turning the kill condition into an uncounterable threat and forcing the opponent to target the acceleration in the deck instead of the Draw 4s and Burning Wish does a pretty awesome job of being a less LED dependent threat itself. Anyway, with the amount of acceleration and bombs in this deck, ripping a Reccuring Insight looks pretty sick and easily in our mana production.
I'd provide my own explanation, but Breathweapon covers it very concisely. I would use the remaining slots you have in the board to abuse the D7 engine and, since you are testing this list, maybe try a few Unmasks for the postboard. They look pretty strong, especially if you just go for EtW against blue.
6 Tallmen doesn't cut it. I've never successfully cut it below 7. Culling the Weak is too strong a card to be dead in your hand.
I think +1 D4 to the maindeck is actually the right call. I've tested Burning Wish extensively and have rarely needed to grab a D4 from the board. I think its better to pack that business into the maindeck.
Do you really want to cut your maindeck protection for more speed? MD Duress can go a long way, especially if you are sitting on a slower hand. If you don't expect to run into that much U.dec, then I guess upping the speed is ok. Keep in mind that Belcher is the only deck that can even come close to racing SI, especially now that ANT is gone. Sacrificing a little speed for protection looks like the right call here.
Slithermuse vs. IGG is really your choice. I prefer Slithermuse because its essentially a D7 if you are on the play, D5 on the draw. Its better suited for the Pact list though since the Pact list has such a high turn 1 kill rate. Using it in slower lists makes it significantly weaker, though the common access to blue in QSI makes me want to try it there. I would run IGG in SITES.

Also, your list has more business than other SI lists (19). It might be worth cutting something for Bayou and running some Carpet of Flowers post-board. I've been loving it in heavy business decks like SI.

@Gocho
I don't think the Pact list is harder to play than NLS. NLS requires a lot of memorization of the piles while Pact SI requires you to memorize the opening hands that work (which isn't difficult) but requires you to calculate mana, business, acceleration, etc. left in the deck to determine if your D4 will be profitably or not. And you have to look for tricky plays with Eternal Witness. :P NLS is probably still harder to play.

[Lord_Cyrus]

Ok, so I knocked up QSI on MWS, and I just keep losing horribly. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong except perhaps trying to win too early. Perhaps it's just bad luck but one time I resolved 3(!!!) draw 4's without finding a win. Ouch. Compared to ANT this is a whole new level of difficulty for me... I just seem to always hit a terrible non-mix of like 2 lands, 2 tall men, no business. Perhaps I should try SITES? This deck really seems to need Draw7's to win... the great power of ANT was ripping past the garbage, even if you had to grab 20 cards to do so. QSI feels like a crapshoot by comparison: "Ritual, ritual, lotus petal... draw 4! Common big money! AH shit..."

[lolosoon]

Ok, so I knocked up QSI on MWS, (...) Compared to ANT this is a whole new level of difficulty for me...
It is no difficulty, but inconsistency.

Chaining 2 Draw4 for BBBBBB ain't the same than playing a Draw12+ for BB3. As you said, you can't draw through and past the garbage you're packing MD.

In my vision of QSI, you have a lot of occasion to go off (or just draw a bunch of cards) and drain out the counterMeasures from your opponent's hand before your big turn.
Still, your said 'big turn' can fizzle from time to time.

SITES didn't have this kind of trouble due to the good amount of its bombs beeing kill spells, not "mere" Draw4.

But if they shoot toward your mana spell, your version of SI won't matter anyway. And your U/x Matchup will suck far more with SI builds than with ol'ANT ones. (see belcher), sadly.

[Vacrix]

Ok, so I knocked up QSI on MWS, and I just keep losing horribly. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong except perhaps trying to win too early. Perhaps it's just bad luck but one time I resolved 3(!!!) draw 4's without finding a win. Ouch. Compared to ANT this is a whole new level of difficulty for me... I just seem to always hit a terrible non-mix of like 2 lands, 2 tall men, no business. Perhaps I should try SITES? This deck really seems to need Draw7's to win... the great power of ANT was ripping past the garbage, even if you had to grab 20 cards to do so. QSI feels like a crapshoot by comparison: "Ritual, ritual, lotus petal... draw 4! Common big money! AH shit..."
Well don't expect QSI to be as consistent as ANT because its not. If you post some sample hands maybe we can figure it out. Most of playing SI is just being very, very familiar with the deck. Knowing how far your opening hand will take you is crucial to knowing when to go off, and when to stop going off and just wait. The tallmen can usually buy you a turn or so to set up with Brainstorm or Meditate EOT. Marit can probably answer your questions about this list since he helped Emidln develop it. Also, I'm going to start working with Marit to make an up-to-date list of QSI. The old version could probably use some tweaks. Until then sit tight and test the different lists.

Also, the advantage of playing QSI over ANT is that your draw engine isn't one card; its your deck. You chain D4's together rather than just play one draw spell to win you the game. Especially with QSI, you will probably have a D4 in your opening 7 so you usually don't need to find the engine to start your spell chain. Its not an easy list to play. None of the SI variants are particularly easy to play. Knowing when to stop digging with D4's is really impo. If you can just pass the turn at 10 life, untap, drop a land, brainstorm, Fetch, and then go off, you probably should. It really depends though. Just goldfish it a lot. I'm thinking that I can post some videos explaining how to pilot the different variants.


In my vision of QSI, you have a lot of occasion to go off (or just draw a bunch of cards) and drain out the counterMeasures from your opponent's hand before your big turn.
Still, your said 'big turn' can fizzle from time to time.

SITES didn't have this kind of trouble due to the good amount of its bombs beeing kill spells, not "mere" Draw4.

But if they shoot toward your mana spell, your version of SI won't matter anyway. And your U/x Matchup will suck far more with SI builds than with ol'ANT ones. (see belcher), sadly.
Yes your big turn can fizz. The advantage, though, is that you won't have to dig for another AdN to go off again. You will probably already have the pieces in your hand to go off again, or draw what you need next turn. You just have to be careful with your life total. A tapped out Zoo player (who isn't playing fireblast) is probably a dead Zoo player. Being able to half your life total instead of pay life allows you to go off from even 4 life.

I haven't had a terrible U/x matchup actually. I'm like 50/50 against merfolk, if not better. They can't really deal with Swarms or Tomb of Urami post-board. Also, I've tested against Forbiddian on UWT a little bit. Unfortunately he's been kicking my ass in tournaments but I usually have been winning the games that we play after the actual matches (or maybe he is just being nice lol).

[Tokobotenkai]

Hi guys, just curious, why does QSI not run LED? (I'm actually looking at it because, it doesn't for budget concerns)

Also, I noticed it's not running IGG, why is that?

EDIT:

I also realised that the QSI build ran only 1 rebuild against CotV and 3sphere decks, with only a singleton and no tutors, could you even draw it?

[Vacrix]

QSI doesn't run that config. Running the IGG loop takes up a lot of space appoximately 4 IT, 1 IGG, 4 LED. Instead, QSI plays Brainstorm and Meditates in those slots. The IGG loop config is very fast but its terrible against control because you put all your eggs into one basket.

Well stax is notorious for being agonizingly slow to kill. As long as you get 3 lands down, you can start digging with your D4's to find it. Otherwise, I agree its probably not enough if you expect heavy stax in your meta. Marit's updated list runs 4 postboard, that is, if you are expecting Stax.

[Gocho]

@Vacrix
I'm goldfishing your PactSI list and always fizzle :(
I can't get enough mana or enough Bussiness spells.
Any guide about mulligan or chaining Draw spells?

[Vacrix]

Well I just goldfished 5 hands of the list. (all on the play) Turn 1 kept my 7, Turn 2 kept my 6, Turn 2 kept my 6, Turn 2 kept my 5, turn 2 kept my 6. They were very conservative hands, with double land grant and such. Don't be afraid to keep a hand that isn't going to win immediately. Even if you fizz, keep playing (unless you die to Pact). In one of those games, I did in fact fizz. Then I drew what I needed to go off again on the following turn. Also, in tournaments there is not really a penalty for playing second against aggro because they can't do anything relevant until turn 2 (Teeg or something). Maybe try playing on the draw.
You really need to know how to mulligan with the deck to play it well. I'd practice by first just looking at your opening hand and deciding if you should keep it. Keep doing that until you feel comfortable with the mulligans. Its one of the decks greatest strengths.
Also, as crazy as it might sound, how you shuffle is pretty important. I couldn't stand the MWS shuffler. Maybe try some paper proxies or something. I always pile shuffle before I draw

Other than that, try this configuration. Its probably much easier to learn how to goldfish:
-1 Tendrils of Agony
-1 Slithermuse
-1 Eternal Witness

+1 IGG
+2 Manamorphose

Manamorphose turns your D4's into D5's. I much prefer my build but hey I play it all the time and am pretty dam familiar with it. I can show you some sample hands if you'd like? Also, don't try to go off turn 1 or 2 every time. When goldfishing this deck, start conservatively and then work your way up to pushing the turn 1 kills.

[Tokobotenkai]

QSI doesn't run that config. Running the IGG loop takes up a lot of space appoximately 4 IT, 1 IGG, 4 LED. Instead, QSI plays Brainstorm and Meditates in those slots. The IGG loop config is very fast but its terrible against control because you put all your eggs into one basket.

Well stax is notorious for being agonizingly slow to kill. As long as you get 3 lands down, you can start digging with your D4's to find it. Otherwise, I agree its probably not enough if you expect heavy stax in your meta. Marit's updated list runs 4 postboard, that is, if you are expecting Stax.

Oh, I'm more on the line of Dragon Stompy (chalice/3sphere aggro decks) actually, stax is not an issue though.

In that case, what do you recommend?

Also, does anyone has the QSI stats of going off? (I'm still learning the works, so not sure I'm getting the fast/correct hands).

[Vacrix]

This will probably help you out. Its an updated list. I haven't tested it yet but it looks pretty dam good.

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Underground Sea

// Creatures
3 [VI] Phyrexian Walker
4 [AL] Shield Sphere

// Spells
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [EX] Culling the Weak
3 [PT] Cruel Bargain
3 [TE] Meditate
3 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [B] Dark Ritual
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [6E] Infernal Contract
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 4 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 2 [PT] Island (1)
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [PT] Swamp (4)

The goal of the deck is to wait and not go off until you have to vs. control, but still have the punch to outrace aggro any day of the week. SB is kinda tricky, essentially the deck transforms into TPS.
My Sb Strats:

Landstill
+1 Meditate
+4 Dark Confidant
+2 Wipe-Away
-2 Cruel Bargain
-3 Infernal Contract
-2 Culling the Weak

i just slow-rolled this matchup, they have no clock, so take your time setting up, and go off when you need to. EOT meditates are key.

Thresh
+1 Meditate
-1 Cruel Bargain

And just play normal, setup, stall with tall men, therapy a few times, EOT meditate, win.

Dragon Stompy, Geddon Stax
+2 Island
+2 plains
+4 Rebuild
+4 Dark Confidant
+2 Wipe-Away
+1 Meditate
-3 Cruel Bargain
-4 Infernal Contract
-4 Cabal Therapy
-4 Culling the Weak

Full Sb, because Dragonstompy is a terrible matchup. This transforms the deck into literally, TPS, stall and play slow, then just try to go off when you really need to. Mini tendrils is always solid, normally what happens is EOT rebuild on their turn, then you try to win. Same goes for Angel Stax, except post SB the matchup becomes a joke. The only problem I've had is an early angel (really early), and armageddon.
As for stats, I re-read the forum to look for them. Iranon has done plenty of huge playtesting samples. Maybe he can throw us some numbers on QSI (if he has them) next time he pops in. Also, I know that Emidln, Marit, and Benie Bederios played QSI quite a lot so they might have some numbers as well. Otherwise, good pilots can goldfish regularly between turns 2-4 consistently. I remember when I played the list on worktstation I was consistently going off on turns 2 and 3. You can count on fewer turn 1's with that list. Its built to beat control, not to be fast like the other lists.

[DarthVicious]

What do you guys think of adding eight more draw effects with something like Night's Whisper/Sign in Blood?

[nodahero]

@Darth: Personally I think the inclusion of the aforementioned cards is terrible. Why pay 2 to draw 2 when you can pay 3 to draw 4? The loss of life simply does not balance out the equation... until they suddenly unban Channel then that may change lol

@ anyone: Perhaps I am wrong but isn't the SI versus other storm decks heavily in their favor? This is more of a curiosity than anything. It seems like paying half our life even once will make the other storm deck win instantly unless we kill them then.... Perhaps this means we don't go for Empty ever since we lose half our life and then they simply kill us on their turn due to only need half the storm?

[Vacrix]

What do you guys think of adding eight more draw effects with something like Night's Whisper/Sign in Blood?
The D4 engine is great on its own. I don't see a reason to play them. If you want more D4's just play Meditates.
Also, you'd have to cut something like IT, which is much stronger with LED than more draw effects.


@ anyone: Perhaps I am wrong but isn't the SI versus other storm decks heavily in their favor? This is more of a curiosity than anything. It seems like paying half our life even once will make the other storm deck win instantly unless we kill them then.... Perhaps this means we don't go for Empty ever since we lose half our life and then they simply kill us on their turn due to only need half the storm?
I have yet to lose in a tournament playing the combo mirror playing Land Grant SI and the Pact list (though I have taken a few losses in playtesting with experimental lists). Those lists are just too fast. Its really a race in your favor. They can play disruption, but they need to back it up with their own spell chain. They need to mulligan for disruption. Fortunately, you will run into the combo mirror much less now that ANT is dead.
QSI is probably worse against other storm combo simply because its a slower list, on par with the speed of NLS, though TES is probably a little bit faster. In that case, its purely a race where you have much less disruption but pack much more business.

[TheSleeper]

I've never played a (non-Solidarity) deck with Meditate. Why play Meditate EOT - don't you have to skip your turn? Can't you just play it in your turn and win on the spot (and forgo the 'drawback')? Or is there some rules-ninja you can do by playing EOT? Or do you simply hope they are going to counter it (and what if they don't...)?

[Vacrix]

Well if they counter it, then you get your untap step, and then go off on your turn. If they don't, they time walk, and you go off with 11 cards in hand. You aren't abusing the rules, just taking advantage of the card. QSI plays lands so having the untap step can make the game, especially if they have to tap out to play it while holding something like Spell Pierce, or against Landstill, counterspell.

[Gocho]

New card:

Time Reversal {3}{U}{U}
Sorcery

Each player shuffles his or her hand and graveyard into his or her library, then draws seven cards. Exile Time Reversal.

Another Draw 7 for SITES?
It can make you draw 7 every time, not the difference but you make him draw too.
And you can use a playset to Draw 7 a lot of times :D

[Vacrix]

Yeah its Diminishing Returns 2.0. You don't remove the top 10 cards so its a little better but it costs 1 more. IDK if it would go into the D7 board. We could just as easily grab Dreturns instead, and then we'd have B floating.

[Iranon]

How helpful EoT Meditate is depends on what cards you fear. It's nice if they just have 1-for-1 stuff like countermagic or discard... +1 card for them, +3 cards for you works out in your favour in a battle of attrition.
It's less fun if they have something to create an unfavourable board position, like hate bears or Counterbalance.

If you have the option, definitely consider it... personally I don't like blue in SI. Most versions can run an opponent out of counters if that's all they have. I care more about the ability to consistently outrace heavy duty hate because that makes the statistics and mind games work in our favour even if the opponent's deck should be good against us.

*

Night's Whisper doesn't work well in SI and forces you into something that's more of an SX port... which will reduce overall power level for few tangible advantages and turn your brain into cream cheese if you try to play it.

[Vacrix]

Holy McShiggles I'm playing the man plan once again!
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106820&d=1277870614

5/5 turn 1 can get there. If not we can just use the LED or Petal to storm off.

On a side note, that is one of the sexiest cards in existence. Can't wait to play it.

[TheSleeper]

Is this going to replace Tomb of Urami in SB, or are you concocting a list with it MD Vacrix? :)

[Vacrix]

HAHA I doubt it will be MD, but it looks particularly good post-board. I'm thinking of dropping the Tombs. They don't allow you to play Belcher with success post-board. I like being able to bait with D4's and then land a Belcher. This might be another option post-board. I can draw removal with Xantid Swarms and land this, or vice versa. It might be worth exploring the generally horrid Death's Shadow again. I can see these 2 guy wrecking someone who boarded out removal. Especially if they let the D4's resolve. I think that happens half the time. They really want to let you resolve one that way they double their clock. Little do they know you have a fatty waiting at 1cc. I think it might find a place in the board if people really start to pick up this deck post-MT. Having a possible manplan post-board makes control have nightmares while boarding against it. To board out removal, or not to board out removal. They might keep a really shitty opening hand, or keep a dead card off Brainstorm.

EDIT:
Its like a good version of Negator without Trample. Seriously? This is the best card for SI we've had in years.

EDIT 2:
Might lists with tallmen work better with Lich? We'd have more artifacts to ensure it stays in play. At the same time... those artifacts are much easier to kill. I'd feel safer putting it on a Chrome Mox or a LED.

[Philipp2293]

Too bad the latest list which I'm currently goldfishing (on Stormboards by Direlemming) runs few artifacts, card is looking pretty sexy.

[Vacrix]

Yeah his list does look good. It likely won't play a man plan because it runs many cards in the wishboard. He is pushing 60% 1st turn on the play out of 50 games. Sounds great to me, and it runs Burning Wish and lands.

Still though, I think the man plan could be a viable option. Especially if you take the same deck to the same meta every week. Running the manplan one day would really throw your opponent off.

EDIT:
I'm thinking that post-board artifacts will make Lich much easier to play. Ideas?
Defense Grid
Relic of Progenitus (anti-grave? for New Horizon's, Thresh, Ichorid, etc)
SDT? Could be hilarious with LEDs and such.

Might it be better in builds with Tallmen?

[Gocho]

I like it more in a Suicide Black list, and if you play it with Darksteel Citadel would be a funny day: "Find sword or Die" :P

[Vacrix]

Yes but Darksteel Citadel is random (dodges Wasteland?) and doesn't really contribute much to a strategy outside of Lich. Besides, STP and PtE are great against it. You only play the man plan if you count on your opponent boarding out his removal. So if you are playing the same deck in the same meta every week, the man plan would be a good way to switch up your game plan. People have come to expect swarm these days so keep their removal in. I doubt it will be the main boarding strategy any time soon.

[Pulp_Fiction]

The EtW plan backed up with discard is usually pretty good. I really don't like this new creature at all. My opponent almost always boards in Grips againt me so now all they have to do is Grip Diamond or something. I like Tomb because its a damn land that lets me play my protection spells easier then beats them in the face. I think Tomb is infinitely better.

As far a Defense Grid goes .... its meh. I played it in the old Land Grant SI lists and it wasn't that useful. If you want to play the man plan the most viable threats are: Tomb of Urami, Tombstalker, Avatar of Discord, and Vampiric Spirit. I think Negator is pure garbage. Flesh Reaver is interesting but .... I don't particularly like it. You could also go for the disruption game and play Hippie or Vampire Nighthawk. Lot of options. A board that combines the EtW plan AND dudes would be very interesting, that that would be a minimum 12 slots which leave you 3 for ALL non-blue matchups.

[Vacrix]

Hmm.. a split between the man-plan and EtW would certainly be interesting. I'm still looking hopefully at Death's Shadow. I've never had Grips boarded in against me so I'm not too concerned about that. Tomb has been subpar lately but I might go back to it now that the man plan has more men.

If we were to incorporate this plan into Direlemming's list with Tinder Walls, then we ought to work the board something like this
SB
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Balance of Power
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Empty the Warrens
1 Cruel Bargain
4 Carpet of Flowers
3 Duress

Actually.. the BW versions don't really allow for a man plan. Carpet is necessary in the PSI list postboards. Its simply too good to cut. Whatever we board in SITES depends entirely on the MD. Breathweapons list plays 3 MD EtW so... maybe we could run a man-plan in that board.. even so it also has a wishboard. What list would you play Pulp? Then we can determine a board.

[dsck]

Is there any competitive BR list or is blue necessary? Either that or is there list with rainbow lands? Much appreciated!

[GreenOne]

Is there any competitive BR list or is blue necessary? Either that or is there list with rainbow lands? Much appreciated!
I'm playing straight BR and the initial testing seems quite good.
Here you are:

// Lands
4 [A] Badlands
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
3 [LG] Kobolds of Kher Keep
3 [LG] Crookshank Kobolds
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [PT] Cruel Bargain
2 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [7E] Infernal Contract
4 [EX] Culling the Weak
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [A] Dark Ritual
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [JU] Burning Wish
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [10E] Deathmark
(SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot)
4 open SB slots

You can, alternatively, play with less bombs and more protection:
-2 IT, -1 IGG, +3 Duress.

Due to the massive use of ETW (even for a non-lethal amount), I'm finding 6 Kobolds to be sufficient. A bit on the low side, but still working.
I'm currently playing Pyroblasts in the open SB slots.

[Vacrix]

I'm playing straight BR and the initial testing seems quite good.
Here you are:

// Lands
4 [A] Badlands
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
3 [LG] Kobolds of Kher Keep
3 [LG] Crookshank Kobolds
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [PT] Cruel Bargain
2 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [7E] Infernal Contract
4 [EX] Culling the Weak
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [A] Dark Ritual
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [JU] Burning Wish
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [10E] Deathmark
(SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot)
4 open SB slots

You can, alternatively, play with less bombs and more protection:
-2 IT, -1 IGG, +3 Duress.

Due to the massive use of ETW (even for a non-lethal amount), I'm finding 6 Kobolds to be sufficient. A bit on the low side, but still working.
I'm currently playing Pyroblasts in the open SB slots.
Thats good if 6 Kobolds is working for you. What about post-board? Are you able to consistently flashback Cabal Therapy?
Also, you really ought to run Balance of Power in the wish board. Its simply too strong not to run.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Hmm.. a split between the man-plan and EtW would certainly be interesting. I'm still looking hopefully at Death's Shadow. I've never had Grips boarded in against me so I'm not too concerned about that. Tomb has been subpar lately but I might go back to it now that the man plan has more men.

If we were to incorporate this plan into Direlemming's list with Tinder Walls, then we ought to work the board something like this
SB
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Balance of Power
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Empty the Warrens
1 Cruel Bargain
4 Carpet of Flowers
3 Duress

Actually.. the BW versions don't really allow for a man plan. Carpet is necessary in the PSI list postboards. Its simply too good to cut. Whatever we board in SITES depends entirely on the MD. Breathweapons list plays 3 MD EtW so... maybe we could run a man-plan in that board.. even so it also has a wishboard. What list would you play Pulp? Then we can determine a board.

I really haven't tested enough SI variants yet to know BUT I know I would never run Land Grant SI again or and version without at least 7 lands in it. I like the Pact lists but they always look so vulnerable to me, they take the Belcher go-big-or-go-home kind of playstyle which is fun, but I more value adaptability over speed. I don't think I would play a list without Burning Wish. The versatility that card adds is just ridiculous.

I am currently working on SITES. I really like Tomb of Urami in the main. But I haven't come up with a list yet that I would feel comfortable taking to a tournament. The last one I posted is decent but needs more tweaking. After my experiences with the tall men I will not be running them ever again. Pact lists are a little different though. I really like the idea of Burning Wish in Pact SI. direlemming's list is quite solid, and I would probably run something like that. The board you posted is quite solid. Are DReturns AND Balance both necessary? I think it really needs Meltdown or Shattering Spree or something to avoid losing to CotV @ 0 or 1. I don't think there is room for the man plan, because when u start trying to take the board in a bunch of different directions it starts to be good at nothing. Then again, something like:

4x EtW
1x Tendrils
1x Balance
1x draw4
1x Duress/Thoughtseize
1x Meltdown/Spree
1x Deathmark
3x Carpet
2x Tombstalker

Or you could just not play Carpet and run 5 creatures in those slots. I know u are sold on Carpet of Flowers, but I have never been much of a fan. Then again I haven't played SI in a tournament setting in probably 2 years, so I will get back to you on that card after I test it. It was pure garbage in the DDANT lists but may be different here.

[Vacrix]

I haven't liked Carpet when facing down multiple Daze. Thats seriously a bitch. I tested against New Horizon's yesterday with Carpet. Double Daze + Goyf ate me alive. However, the times when I landed an early Carpet or early Xantid Swarm were the games that went in my favor. Sneaking Belcher in past Countermagic has been much stronger than trying to storm off. I'm also down to play the lands version but it has different strengths. Its better against hatebears because you can dabble in the wishboard for answers. I'd be down to cut Carpet but test it extensively before you decide whether or not its good. Having access to ESG makes both Xantid and Carpet fairly easy to cast. Also, Chrome Mox won me multiple games against New Horizons. Direlemming's list is definitely going to need more.

I agree about Meltdown. Its too strong not to run. Then again, Balance of Power is also very strong. Dreturns is very weak against control because you refill their hand with countermagic. However, if you do successfully resolve a Burning Wish + LED, you can successfully take Balance of Power against control. Either way, I suggest you keep Dreturns as an 'oh shit' button against aggro. As long as they aren't playing Mindbreak Trap, its also a solid way to go off against aggro.

[Tokobotenkai]

Hey guys, noticed there's not much talk about the QSI builds but anyone knows how the man plan would work for the QSI builds after SB?

Also, no chance of using a thopter foundry + sword of the meek combo as we don't have enough mana in QSI right?

[GreenOne]

Thats good if 6 Kobolds is working for you. What about post-board? Are you able to consistently flashback Cabal Therapy?
Also, you really ought to run Balance of Power in the wish board. Its simply too strong not to run.

I don't like balance of power much:
- It's a card that becomes worse when we're on the draw and when the opponent mulligans, and that is useful only in the beginning of the match;
- Against a blue opponent he will likely mull into force game 2 and 3, thus reducing their hand to 5 (fow) or less cards (mulligan decisions);
- if the opponent plays blue, I'm probably wishing for ETW or protection (discard);
- If the opponent plays blue and has already countered something, I might be able to just wish for tendrils and kill him.
- If the opponent plays blue but doesn't have countermagic in hand... WTF I'm going to win on his face like this deck is supposed to do against non-blue, even IGG is possible!
- If the opponent doesn't play countermagic or chant, a draw =7 is better than a draw<=7;
- Diminishing returns plays a minor role in disrupting opponent's grave dependant cards (Goyf, Ichorid, ecc);
- Diminishing returns costs 1 less to play;
- A draw 7 is a lot better against discard based decks.

About Cabal Therapy: yeah, it was just so-so, I took it out for 3 duresses and an Unmask.
About Artifact Hate: I just forgot it, I'll obviously play 1 shattering spree in the board.

[marit]

Hey guys, noticed there's not much talk about the QSI builds but anyone knows how the man plan would work for the QSI builds after SB?

Also, no chance of using a thopter foundry + sword of the meek combo as we don't have enough mana in QSI right?

The man plan is useless for QSI. The man plan is used is SI/SITES because without it, the control matchup is pretty poor, and control likes so side out removal to bring in more hate. QSI has a respectable control matchup, and therefore doesn't need any sneaky tricks, just meditates and therapies. And no, mana is not that abundant in QSI, the thopter combo is silly and clunky.

[Tokobotenkai]

The man plan is useless for QSI. The man plan is used is SI/SITES because without it, the control matchup is pretty poor, and control likes so side out removal to bring in more hate. QSI has a respectable control matchup, and therefore doesn't need any sneaky tricks, just meditates and therapies. And no, mana is not that abundant in QSI, the thopter combo is silly and clunky.

In that case, for SB, it's usually just solutions (i.e. bounce) to stuff like chalice/3sphere/meddling mages plus additional draw effects?

A sample list from a few posts back looked like this.

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Meditate
SB: 4 Dark Confidant
SB: 4 Rebuild
SB: 2 Island
SB: 2 Wipe Away
SB: 2 Swamp

What should be included in the SB?

Also, no brainfreeze against the mirror? And out of curiosity sake, how would Shadowmage Infiltrator fare over Dark Confidant in the deck?

[Vacrix]

In that case, for SB, it's usually just solutions (i.e. bounce) to stuff like chalice/3sphere/meddling mages plus additional draw effects?

A sample list from a few posts back looked like this.

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Meditate
SB: 4 Dark Confidant
SB: 4 Rebuild
SB: 2 Island
SB: 2 Wipe Away
SB: 2 Swamp

What should be included in the SB?

Also, no brainfreeze against the mirror? And out of curiosity sake, how would Shadowmage Infiltrator fare over Dark Confidant in the deck?
If you play the mirror... then wow. Just wow. I've only once heard of an SI mirror. If you are referring to the storm mirror.. then you are likely to face TES in the current environment, in which case BF is still not that great. Dark Confidant is great because you don't need to attack with him. He draws you cards regardless. I'd run Confidant over Infiltrator any day of the week.

The only other thing we ought to consider for the board is a way to deal with Teeg. Cannonist can be dealt with via Rebuild but even so, I feel like we should run a few Death Mark's for safe measure.

[Tokobotenkai]

If you play the mirror... then wow. Just wow. I've only once heard of an SI mirror. If you are referring to the storm mirror.. then you are likely to face TES in the current environment, in which case BF is still not that great. Dark Confidant is great because you don't need to attack with him. He draws you cards regardless. I'd run Confidant over Infiltrator any day of the week.

The only other thing we ought to consider for the board is a way to deal with Teeg. Cannonist can be dealt with via Rebuild but even so, I feel like we should run a few Death Mark's for safe measure.

Oh yes, I'm referring to Storm combo mirrors. All I notice is that is who gets to go off first.

As for Teeg wouldn't it be the same as Meddling Mages, bounce him with wipe away/echoing truth and combo off?

Ok, I'll probably get Dark Confidant, (I just realised it's not at the 20 dollars price tag like in the past). I was thinking about Infiltrator (can block and goes thru many blockers too ping for 1, but then again mishra's factory is common and like confidant, you can sac it to cabal therapy if necessary) and phyrexian arena (draws for cheap life, but hard to remove) and both cost 3 cc.

[Vacrix]

Oh yes, I'm referring to Storm combo mirrors. All I notice is that is who gets to go off first.

As for Teeg wouldn't it be the same as Meddling Mages, bounce him with wipe away/echoing truth and combo off?

Ok, I'll probably get Dark Confidant, (I just realised it's not at the 20 dollars price tag like in the past). I was thinking about Infiltrator (can block and goes thru many blockers too ping for 1, but then again mishra's factory is common and like confidant, you can sac it to cabal therapy if necessary) and phyrexian arena (draws for cheap life, but hard to remove) and both cost 3 cc.
Well you could just Wipe Away or Echoing Truth, but thats not necessarily optimal against Zoo. Zoo is fast and can lay down a bear without really cutting back on their clock. I'm wondering if with x8 cantrips, 2 Deathmark is a good call.

[emidln]

If you play something in the 1cc slot, it is Chain of Vapor. QSI can abuse it better than most storm decks since it's a legit storm generation method in the deck given the infinite artifacts it plays.

[metalhead]

If you play something in the 1cc slot, it is Chain of Vapor. QSI can abuse it better than most storm decks since it's a legit storm generation method in the deck given the infinite artifacts it plays.

On top of being a decent storm generator, Sometimes bad cb players will let it resolve if you target your own mox/petal/tallman, then you sac a land to bounce there counterbalance. I just did this on mws about 20 minutes ago. It might not always work. but if you mise hard enough you can sometimes get lucky.

[Vacrix]

On top of being a decent storm generator, Sometimes bad cb players will let it resolve if you target your own mox/petal/tallman, then you sac a land to bounce there counterbalance. I just did this on mws about 20 minutes ago. It might not always work. but if you mise hard enough you can sometimes get lucky.
I was actually thinking the same thing just now that bad CB players might fall for that. Nice.

Yeah Chain definitely looks stronger than Death Mark. How would a board look in a staxless meta?
SB:
1 Meditate
4 Dark Confidant
4 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Bayou
3 Slot

The ability to bounce Confidant/Swarm in response to removal looks pretty badass to me.

[theintangiblefatman]

Hey, guys; I've been trying to make this deck work with the MODO card pool for kicks. The main cards missing are Cruel Bargain and Land Grant. How would you go about building a list without those available? Here's a few of the lists I've tried. (Warning: lots of deck lists to come, and I don't see any way to put them in a spoiler box.)

Pact List
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Ritual
2 Manamorphose

4 Summoner's Pact
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
2 Grim Tutor

1 Eternal Witness
1 Odious Trow
1 Wild Cantor

1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony

SB 4 Duress
SB 4 Nature's Claim
SB 4 Tomb of Urami
SB 3 Tombstalker

I've dipped into red in an attempt to replace the lost initial mana sources Land Grant represented, but Simian Spirit Guide making red and not black hurts a lot. The deck is wildly inconsistent, either goldfishing turn one or sputtering about trying to get started. Xantid Swarm isn't workable out of the board without Land Grant for Bayou.


SITES List
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract

7 Kobalds

3 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB 4 Cabal Therapy
SB 4 Tomb of Urami
SB 1 Deathmark
SB 1 Empty the Warrens
SB 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB 1 Diminishing Returns
SB 1 Balance of Power
SB 1 Recurring Insight

This list solves the problem finding an initial black source by playing lands, but is significantly slower for the slight gain in consistency. I think, without Cruel Bargain, TES is just straight-up better.


Pact/Belcher Hybrid
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Manamorphose

4 Summoner's Pact
2 Spoils of the Vault
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract

1 Odious Trow
1 Wild Cantor

1 Empty the Warrens
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB 4 Duress
SB 4 Nature's Claim
SB 4 Tomb of Urami
SB 3 Tombstalker

This list attempts to forego the draw four engine entirely in favor of simply playing a ton of win conditions, mainly because I like the Pact engine a whole lot and am not a big fan of traditional Belcher lists. Playing the full set of Manamorphose makes the opening black a little easier, although, as with many of you, I'm sure, I absolutely despise the randomness that card brings to hands. I haven't really done much with this list other than put the intial framework down.


I've only got one Meditate and haven't bothered to pick up more, so I haven't tried playing it in place of Cruel Bargain, but the blue cost seems very difficult to hit consistently.

[Vacrix]

Umm... I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to do. What is MODO?
@ first list
I wouldn't recommend replacing Land Grants with SSG just because of the reason you highlighted, lack of initial B. If you are forced to do that, though, you really do need a full set of Manamorphose.
Also, you might want to play Burning Wish over Grim Tutor simply because Grim is one mana more expensive and you already have access to a lot of red sources. I'd rework it like this
-1 ToA
-2 Grim Tutor
-1 Eternal Witness
-1 Odious Trow
+3 Burning Wish
+2 Manamorphose
See how that works out for you.

@ second list
Yes it really is a horrible version of TES from the looks of it.

@ third list
Spoils of the Vault and the D4 engine do not mix. Spoils is half-decent pre-D4, but its obviously worthless post-D4.

In general, you can't play SI without the shell. The shell always includes Cruel Bargain so not having access to it makes the deck unplayable. You could try to replace it with Meditate but yes having the access to blue consistently will certainly be an issue.

[sunshine]

I'm taking stalk of the different combo options now that Mystical Tutor is out of the format. What do the SI variants have over TES builds? In other words if you had to convince someone to play SI over TES (or even Belcher for that matter) what would your arguments be?

Sorry if this has been beaten to death, I've been following the thread for a while and haven't seen anything (and OP was last updated in 2007).

[Dark Ritual]

MODO is magic online.

The reasons to play variants of SI over TES have to do with consistency, speed, and how well they fight hate. SI is also more budget friendly since TES now includes fetches and duals such as U. Sea and volcanic island. And it depends on playstyle since people might love to play SI but hate playing TES for some reason.

Grim Tutor is terrible in legacy and always will be. Don't play that card ever. Burning wish is better IMO especially if you splash red.

Cruel bargain is absolutely necessary like Vacrix said. Replacing it with meditate leads to consistency issues especially involving casting the card since there is an abundance of black mana in SI like in other combo decks whereas blue mana is harder to get.

[sunshine]

The reasons to play variants of SI over TES have to do with consistency, speed, and how well they fight hate. SI is also more budget friendly since TES now includes fetches and duals such as U. Sea and volcanic island. And it depends on playstyle since people might love to play SI but hate playing TES for some reason.

Ok, so ignoring budget concerns and whatever enjoyment factors there might be, why play this over TES from a pure viability standpoint? Consistency and resiliency seem suspicious to me given that few SI builds I've seen run any protection pieces MD compared to TES's 6-8, so my question is how do you come up with the increased consistency/resiliency? Speed I can believe but how much are we talking about - 0.5-1 turn?

I get that you have a large number D4s, Wishes, Tutors, etc which increase your bomb density (possibly to the point of not needing protection) but wiffing on a D4 seems really bad and likely to happen more than once over the course of a tourney.

[Vacrix]

Ok, so ignoring budget concerns and whatever enjoyment factors there might be, why play this over TES from a pure viability standpoint? Consistency and resiliency seem suspicious to me given that few SI builds I've seen run any protection pieces MD compared to TES's 6-8, so my question is how do you come up with the increased consistency/resiliency? Speed I can believe but how much are we talking about - 0.5-1 turn?

I get that you have a large number D4s, Wishes, Tutors, etc which increase your bomb density (possibly to the point of not needing protection) but wiffing on a D4 seems really bad and likely to happen more than once over the course of a tourney.
If you learn how to pilot it well, PSI variants will yield a +60% turn 1 win percentage. Direlemming and myself have both posted 70% turn 1 kills in our goldfishing on the play. Thats why you ought to play it over TES. Your opponent has about a 40% chance of having FoW. You have a dam good chance of winning before they have a clock or protection that requires lands like Daze, Spell Pierce, CB, etc. TES has a mediocre turn 1 kill but is more consistent against control. Then again, QSI, is arguably just as good against control as TES is, but TES is much easier to play because you don't have to rely on a draw engine for your kills.

[Vacrix]

I think WoTC made a mistake guys...

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=107035&d=1278302906

I think SI just became the best god dam deck in the format. +4 to the board. Immediately.
Also, why is this uncommon?

[TheSleeper]

Wow... that artwork is awesome!!

Sick card too.. only have to cast it once for a single green? I am so playing this deck in a tourney as soon as M11 is legal.

Uncommon because Wizards loves us.

[Vacrix]

I think my board is going to look something along these lines:
4 Autumn's Veil
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Carpet of Flowers
3 Tomb of Urami

@ Tomb
I've decided its not just good because it can provide you with an uncounterable dude. It also provides you with the initial black you need to go off multiple times against control. The other option is to board in more Belchers. I'm not sure which plan is stronger yet. Still working out which 15 to board out.

And yes the art is badass. It goes with the flavor of the deck very well.

[B.C.]

I like Autumn's Veil. That's pretty much what this deck needed. It's like a green Orim's Chant.

Also from M11, if you are thinking about the man plan, it doesn't get much better than this:

Phylactery Lich
BBB
Creature - Zombie
Rare
5/5
As Phylactery Lich enters the battlefield, put a Phylactery counter on an artifact you control.
Phylactery Lich is indestructible.
When you control no permanents with phylactery counters on them, sacrifice Phylactery Lich.

[Vacrix]

I like both. I think that Carpet and protection plan is in general much stronger than the current man plan. The man plan is definitely a surprise you could take to your local meta. If I went to a large tournament, I'd most certainly play the protection plan.

Also, its better than Chant in that we don't necessarily have to play it before starting the spell chain. We can respond to FoW on something with ESG--> Veil, and the FoW will fizz for lack of legal target. In that sense, we might actually need the G from ESG, or even Veil to imprint on Chrome Mox later in the spell chain. Not having to necessarily play it before the spell chain is a huge advantage. That means we can save it for a later spell chain as well. Imagine we 'fizz' via the D4s. If we didn't encounter FoW, we still have Veil in hand for the next time we try to go off...
Seriously I have no idea why WoTC printed something that is so fucking good. Good thing PSI is hard to play or WoTC would not be happy. :P

[whidye]

I think my board is going to look something along these lines:
4 Autumn's Veil
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Carpet of Flowers
3 Tomb of Urami

@ Tomb
I've decided its not just good because it can provide you with an uncounterable dude. It also provides you with the initial black you need to go off multiple times against control. The other option is to board in more Belchers. I'm not sure which plan is stronger yet. Still working out which 15 to board out.

And yes the art is badass. It goes with the flavor of the deck very well.

Is this the SB you plan on using for your PactSI list?

[Vacrix]

Yeah. At least I'll be testing it in about a week. I'm at a philosophy conference ATM up in Las Vegas. I'll proxy it up and test thoroughly once I get back.

I'm also considering running a build without Land Grant. Access to great protection like this might warrant foregoing Charbelcher in favor of hitting more land drops against control.

[TheSleeper]

How many SB cards can afford to 'go in' to SI before it becomes unworkable? I know this is a concern for Dredge, as the more cards you SB in, the more it diffuses the internal synergies.

Which 12 cards do we board out against FoW.dec to fit in Xantid/Autumn/Carpet? Perhaps there's room for some mind games bringing in Autumn over Xantid, as a lot of people know now to leave in their removal, weakening Xantids effectiveness.

Also Counterbalance can still counter after Autumn resolves, true?

[Vacrix]

Well SI just needs its shell to function well. Usually you are going to board out Summoner's Pact for Carpet. Both function as mana sources, just in different ways. Ideally, you can board in all 15 cards. Xantid Swarms are useful in providing both protection and facilitate Culling the Weak. Ideally you could even board out Land Grants for Tomb of Urami as they both provide you with the initial black. As you can probably see, Culling the Weak is bound to get weaker post-board. Ideally we will board out 1 or 2 and try to slow play. I recommend post-board Belchers because we can bait with D4s until we can eventually resolve one. Its been working out for me but IDK maybe 15 in 15 out isn't the best approach. Other ideas?

The other idea I was exploring is returning to Dark Confidant post-board. Confidant provides additional cards you will need to sculpt a good hand and get lots of perpetual resources down before the combo turn. Its also provides you with additional creatures for Culling the Weak.

[nodahero]

Counterbalance can still trigger after an Autmn resolves but the counter effect will not actually counter the spell.

Scractch the above... I didn't catch the blue or black SPELL clause... CB will still counter.

[Vacrix]

Well either way, then CB trigger would counter Veil before it had a chance to 'save' our spell from certain death.

Also, I'm reevaluating the maindeck. With much better protection spells, I'm much more comfortable adding in more lands, namely green sources (hence 2 Bayous post-board and forego Belcher). This is the MD I'm exploring ATM:

Pact SI:
Business: (17)
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Slithermuse
3 Diabolic Intent
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain

Mana: (43)
1 Eternal Witness
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

SB:
4 Carpet of Flower
4 Autumn's Veil
3 Dark Confidant
2 Bayou
1 Oxidize
1 Deathmark

The list foregoes Belcher.. but it plays significantly more lands. Xantid Swarm MD is huge. Its obviously already great at protecting our combo pre-board. Not having to waste SB space to play it seems pretty dam good. Also, running 4 Fetch-->Arbor, 4 Pact-->Arbor, Arbor, and 4 Xantid Swarm is effectively 15 tallmen, more than enough to support both Culling the Weak and Diabolic Intent. Actually that might be too much. The other option is to cut the Fetch count to 3, run 1 more Bayou and free up one more slot in the board. Diabolic Intent--> Slithermuse looks sick as hell.
Now I'm sure you are wondering, how in gods name do you board? The list looks Pacted (funny I know) as hell. I'm not really sure to tell the truth. All 8 pieces of protection protect the IGG loop. Diabolic Intent--> Slithermuse is pretty strong, even post-board against control because they usually have a pretty big hand. I haven't drawn less than 5 cards with it when I cast it. Then again, without MM its much harder to cast. Maybe its worth cutting for IGG instead. Then again.. Diabolic Intent is pretty strong with Slithermuse but not so much with IGG because you need to DI-->IT-->IGG and then we might as well just play something like Grim Tutor instead, which is still not so great with the IGG loop.

Against U.dec board out the following:
-4 Summoner's Pact --> +4 Carpet of Flowers
Thats really the only obvious choice. Mana source for manasource.

Thoughts on boarding? I'm not sure what to board out against control to fit in the other cards, or really how necessary they might be.

@Deathmark/Oxidize
Might as well board these in post-board. Diabolic Intent allows us to fetch them out if we really need them.

[whidye]

Well either way, then CB trigger would counter Veil before it had a chance to 'save' our spell from certain death.

Also, I'm reevaluating the maindeck. With much better protection spells, I'm much more comfortable adding in more lands, namely green sources (hence 2 Bayous post-board and forego Belcher). This is the MD I'm exploring ATM:

Pact SI:
Business: (17)

1 Slithermuse

Mana: (43)
1 Eternal Witness
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

SB:
4 Carpet of Flower
4 Autumn's Veil
3 Dark Confidant
2 Bayou
1 Oxidize
1 Deathmark



A few questions/comments;

Nature's Claim seems better than Oxidize - I think the deck probably can get another 2 storm easy. I think this is especially relevant regarding the shroud leyline in M11.

Deathmark? For hate bear? Maybe ghastly demise or slaughter pact?

Slithermuse is D4 x 9?

I think Land Grant is important... strorm +1. But I agree - sucks if its countered. Same as stifling your fetchland though. Meta call? And as you know - belcher alt. win.

[theintangiblefatman]

I fiddled around with a few more lists, added Burning Wish to my first list and such, but the deck is still way too inconsistent for my taste without Cruel Bargain, as y'all predicted. Thanks for the advice.

[Vacrix]

@whidye
Good call on Nature's Claim. I agree its a much better choice. You can also target your own Chrome Mox it you need to gain some life for a longer spell chain (though this will happen probably 1/500 times).

Slithermuse is a replacement for IGG. Its not necessarily better. I personally prefer it, especially with Diabolic Intents. Grabbing IGG with Diabolic Intent is underwhelming. Its a D7 on turn 1 on the play, and often a D5 on the draw (or on turn 2 on the play), often just an overcosted D4 on Turn 2 on the draw.

Yes Land Grant is important. Thats just a list I'm testing ATM. I think that sometimes the lands will clog your hand, but not having to rely on Land Grant is very strong against control. Think about it. Land Grant not only shows the opponent which resources you need the most ie. what to counter, and isn't counterable unless you run into Stifle against New Horizons or something. Its just food for the thought for anyone who feels like playing something on MWS. I'll be sleeving up against New Horizons in a week (I'm not in town).


Aside, I just finished a new primer. It will probably be up by the end of today.

[Hanni]

Will it include the reason the deck is called SI? I'm totally down to hear "because no one expects the Spanish Inquisition!" :)

[emidln]

That was basically it. Evenpence named it that because nobody expected it at the time (pre-Dissension).

[Bardo]

New thread here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?24-Established-Decks

This one closed.