[Hypothetical] Fixing Green [Archive]

Phantom

06-21-2007, 04:39 PM

This thread presupposes that there is a problem with the color green in Legacy. There may not be a problem with green, but here is my reasoning:

You can't play mono Green. You just can't. Off the top of my head, every color has had at least one fairly competitive mono colored deck (Goblins, Faerie Stompy, Sui, Angel Stompy, Wombat, MCS, BBS, etc). I think this goes to the heart of greens problem, it is the least versatile of the colors. It has a severe lack of creature removal, combo hate, and draw engines (WotC appears to be trying to fix this one of late).

A secondary problem, to me at least, is how splashable the quality green cards in legacy are. Loam, Mongoose, 'goyf, Werebear, ESG, Dryad, and many more not only don't require a heavy commitment to green, but actually often encourage running other colors. If you go over to IBAs thread in the metagame forum, you will see that while green is not the least run color, decks that ran green in the top 8 ran about 16 green cards between main and sideboard, the lowest of the five colors.

Other colors seem to be splashable, but also have cards that heavily encourage a commitment to that color (Force of Will, Goblin Lackey, and Dark Ritual to name three).

Anyway, my hypothetical is this:

WotC approaches you and states that they want you to design one or many green cards to be introduced into Legacy card pool directly (so you don't have to worry about Type II power issues) to fix the above problems, and any others you may see with the color, without upsetting the format or color wheel (whatever that is these days) too greatly. What do you suggest or design?

mikekelley

06-21-2007, 04:48 PM

I'd design some hasty or vigilant green weenies, not like goblins, but good utility creatures that can quickly deal with threats on the table. For example, I think a green Goblin Sharpshooter would be fantastic, but I'd change some things about it. Something like Icatian Javilineers:

Quickened Elf
G
Haste
Elf comes into play with an arrow counter on it.
T: Elf deals one damage to target creature or player. Remove an arrow counter from Elf. If at end of turn Elf has no arrow counters on it, remove it from the game and it gains suspend 3.
1/1

That is a solid card that can deal with absurd 1-drops, but it isn't by any means broken. a 1-mana 1/1 that can ping once is like an ication javilineers type thing, but he has advantages and drawbacks. I also think it is green in flavor - if we remove the restrictions we've placed on green, we can make it a better color.

People place too many restrictions on what green can and cannot do as a color. I think green can be much more than just a big trampling beats color. What does green give us? A huge part of nature. Things in nature can fly, be fast, and so on. I was reading a thread on MTGSal (god help me) the other day and people were endlessly bitching about how BoP is out of flavor for green because it flies. I mean, what the fuck?

There is a huge artificial mental block for people in terms of what green can and can't do. I think groundbreaker and keen sense were two steps in the right direction. I also think that green should get more instant speed removal. This can still be done and retain a 'green' quality, as far as I'm concerned. Land disruption could also be green, if you ask me

technogeek5000

06-21-2007, 04:59 PM

Lol this is easy

Grass ritual G
Instant
Add GGG to your mana pool

Would fit into greens flavor because green is the color of life. All life grows and the super duper uper green mages could take advantage of all the vegetations energy and use it to improve their spells.

Wizards could in fact directly inject it into eternal formats by banning this card in Standard and Extended.

mikekelley

06-21-2007, 05:02 PM

And here comes the retard parade.

This is a totally useless, one line post that flames for no reason.

Warned.

-PR

Pale Moon FTW

06-21-2007, 05:16 PM

The problem with green is that it doesn't have any answers. Blue has counters, red and white has creature removal and black has discard while green has an ugly hat of mould. So the green's problem can't be fixed unless the very basic flavor of the color is changed.
However I don't think green's problem are very serious.

1) When you say that every other color has a viable mono-colored deck you count Sui as a viable deck but I wouldn't do that. Yes, there was a sui deck on the GP top 8 but that was in the flashified meta.

2) Statistically green isn't the least played color (actually it's black). With the expectations of a "combo summer" this will change and green will probably become the least played color, but as things are right now it's not that bad.

3) While green has no answers it does have the best creatures except for red. Creatures like Tarmogoyf and Mongoose are certainly stronger than anything blue and black can show. White does have Exalted Angel but I'll call it a tie.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-21-2007, 05:25 PM

There isn't a problem with Green. Ironically, Green is the only color in Legacy that's about where it should be. Blue and Red are a good bit overpowered, and White and Black need a significant boost.

Legacy has Duals and Fetches. Most strategies aren't mono-anything. Green is a fundamental part of a number of decks and strategies however, including Threshold, LftL, Survival, CRET Belcher, and Aluren.

Note also: Tarmogoyf >>>> Exalted Angel, Pale Moon.

Pale Moon FTW

06-21-2007, 05:40 PM

@IBA: I do agree with your points except that blue is overpowered. From a certain point of view, FoW and Stifle might seem overpowered but ironically they're absolutely necessary to keep the other overpowered cards in Legacy at bay. (If those cards aren't the ones that you think make blue overpowered I can't see what would; Intuition maybe? But that's not overpowered, but more like just really good.)

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-21-2007, 05:51 PM

Actually, I think the cantrip base is more responsible for blue's strength in Legacy, although Force is definitely a huge part of it too. But a cantrip base lets you cut mana and still get to what you have reliably, and lets you get around drawing too much mana late game.

If you were to cut one mana blue cantrips and Force of Will, blue'd probably be the least played color.

Tacosnape

06-21-2007, 05:54 PM

I'll take a stab at this. Note that all of these prints are assuming Legacy only. And for some reason the first two are Centaurs.

Card #1:
Nessian Battlescout
:g:
Creature - Centaur Warrior
2/2

If Green's true form of dominance in the game is having the biggest baddest most undercosted creatures, then in Legacy it needs to be able to compete in the 1-drop category. White and Black shouldn't have better 1-for-2/2 guys than Green.

Card #2:
Nessian Strategos
:1::g::g:
Creature - Centaur Warrior
3/2
Green creatures you control have shroud.
Green creatures you control have provoke.

Green decks don't have removal and thereby lose the creature battle, which they shouldn't do. This guy gives Green protection from enemy removal while simultaneously giving Green removal of its own.

Card #3:
Taipan's Fangs
:g:
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature has deathtouch.
Whenever Taipan's Fangs is put into a graveyard from play, return Taipan's Fangs to its owner's hand.

An alternate, green-acceptable form of removal. Low-costed and with the Rancor ability, but possibly still underpowered.

Green's got to be able to deal with combo to a degree, also.

Card #4:
Nature's Will
:g:
Enchantment
You have shroud.

And there's a fair chance this last card should be white, but meh. I like the concept of a series of stronger, Vanishing Leylines that guarantee you a chance to equalize the board before losing.

Card #5:
Leyline of the Heart
:1::g::g:
Enchantment
Vanishing 4
If Leyline of the Heart is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it in play.
You can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game.

greenmage

06-21-2007, 06:44 PM

I don't see the problem. Green is widely used and builds the core of many decks. Yes, it is splashable and therefore not often used moncoloured. So what? I don't believe that has anything to do with the strength of a colour. After all, it is only convenient to use power cards from other colours when you have a "natural" ability to do so.

The only thing green really suffers from is that people underestimate it all the time. I don't know where this mind set comes from. My hypothesis is that this mindset comes from some old school players who used green when it was still weak (it wasn't really strong in the first years of magic) or because n00bs often use it in their jank decks.

Phantom

06-21-2007, 06:54 PM

Phantom

06-21-2007, 07:46 PM

First, sorry about the double post (feel free to merge). Second, here are some thoughts:

I'll take a stab at this. Note that all of these prints are assuming Legacy only. And for some reason the first two are Centaurs.

Card #1:
Nessian Battlescout
:g:
Creature - Centaur Warrior
2/2

If Green's true form of dominance in the game is having the biggest baddest most undercosted creatures, then in Legacy it needs to be able to compete in the 1-drop category. White and Black shouldn't have better 1-for-2/2 guys than Green.

Completely agreed that green creatures should just blatantly outclass others, and I'd love to see it the Battlescout (nice name too). The only minor is that everyone is just going to splash it the way they do Goose. Maybe a :g::g: 3/3 or 3/4 to go along with it?

Card #2:
Nessian Strategos
:1::g::g:
Creature - Centaur Warrior
3/2
Green creatures you control have shroud.
Green creatures you control have provoke.

Green decks don't have removal and thereby lose the creature battle, which they shouldn't do. This guy gives Green protection from enemy removal while simultaneously giving Green removal of its own.

Now we're talking. Double green and encourages you to play more green. Also, green creatures should all have crazy amounts of abilities. Me likey.

Card #5:
Leyline of the Heart
:1::g::g:
Enchantment
Vanishing 4
If Leyline of the Heart is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it in play.
You can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game.

This one fascinates me. My only concern is that off color decks might play it (read Solidarity). Maybe it could be conditional, like it only works if you have a forest in play, or maybe it could be Vanishing 2 but add a counter for each forst and/or green creature you drop.

Either way, great stuff.

Quickened Elf
G
Haste
Elf comes into play with an arrow counter on it.
T: Elf deals one damage to target creature or player. Remove an arrow counter from Elf. If at end of turn Elf has no arrow counters on it, remove it from the game and it gains suspend 3.
1/1

I like the haste and I like the suspend idea a lot.

Barook

06-21-2007, 07:49 PM

Good thing that this is addressed - it was already my request for the Adept discussion:

Are decks which feature Green as one of their main colors underpowered due to Green's total lack of half-way decent combo hate?
White has Chant, Abeyance and various disruptive creatures/enchantments, Blue has counters, Black has discard, Red has at least Pyrostatic Pillar, Blasts against Blue (and LD, if you can count that as effective disruption), but what does Green have? Root Maze? Plow Under? Seriously? :confused:

Threshold and similiar decks only splash for a few efficient creatures while running tons of quality disruption in the other colors or, in case of combo decks, they run Green only for mana accel.
Sure, Aluren and Survival both run Green to a certain degree, but not without a disruption package borrowed from black and/or blue.
Trinity Green - disruption based on artifacts, not on green.
Now let's take 43 Lands - Mono-Green (under normal circumstances), no artifact-based disruption, dies horribly to combo.

In the past, I heard sometimes stuff like "R/G Beats would be a beast in the meta game - if it didn't lose so horribly to combo."

Does Green's weakness in dealing with combo (and, to a lesser degree, creatures) make it to the stepchild of the format?

I was reading a thread on MTGSal (god help me) the other day and people were endlessly bitching about how BoP is out of flavor for green because it flies. I mean, what the fuck?
Yeah, I hate that this attitude, too. If Wizards tells them that shit is better than (insert tasty food here), you can bet that there are enough R&Dtards who argue why this tasty food is out of flavor. :confused:

Back to topic: Like I mentioned above, green suffers due to the lack of both creature removal and cheap, viable disruption.
Wizards wants fat creatures to be the core of green, but ironically, BoP is still considered the best green creature by them. And why? Because they fail at designing decent green creatures most of the times because they are one-trick-ponies or just plain suck. To make things worse, they make cards that scream "I'm green, BITCH!", but put them into the wrong color.
Teferi is the best example for this: Flash (green), grants Flash (green), hoses Counters & other instants (green) - so they made it blue? :confused:

Yesterday, i also realized that Jotun Grunt is totally green. To quote a part of the mail i wrote yesterday to "Ask Wizards":

White is about weenies, green about fat creatures. A 4/4 creature is definitely not a weenie, and cheap fatties with a drawback are green's territory (e.g. Tempting Wurm, Sheltering Ancient). While this could be still understandable, the graveyard-based ability is definitely green. While white tends to remove cards from the graveyard (e.g. Morningtide, Stonecloaker), green always deals with the graveyard via bringing the cards back into the library (e.g. Loaming Shaman, Battlefield Scrounger).

I think it wouldn't hurt green to get some disruptive weenies, similiar to white which have tons of them, while staying into the realm of green abilities - probably something like this:

Root Mage :g::g:
Creature - Human Druid
Artifacts and lands come into play tapped.
Players can't play artifacts' activated abilities.
Back to the Roots!
2/2

But I stop here before the thread turns into a "Make your own crap cards"-thread.

Peter_Rotten

06-21-2007, 08:05 PM

Hmm, this is fun. I'll play along.

:g:
Big Arse Elephant
Creature
You may not play BAE from your hand if you do not control at least two basic forests.
While BAE is in play, its controller may not play land cards from his or her hand.
4/4

But are more beaters really the answer for Green's supposed weakness?

:g::g::g:
Survival Too
Enchantment
When you play a creature, you may sacrifice that creature. If you do, you may search your library for up to three copies of that creature and put them into play. Pay an amount of life equal to the cc of each of those creatures.

Sorta silly and probably has a broken combo that I don't immediately see. It could be too powerful with CIP critters, but hopefully the life requirement could keep it in check.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-21-2007, 08:07 PM

Can we not have a card creation forum/thread/anything? Thanks.

Peter_Rotten

06-21-2007, 08:11 PM

Can we not have a card creation forum/thread/anything? Thanks.

Oh, who's the grinch now?

One card creation thread with a specific focus won't do any harm. I see no problem in allowing this.

Tacosnape

06-21-2007, 08:32 PM

I think it wouldn't hurt green to get some disruptive weenies, similiar to white which have tons of them, while staying into the realm of green abilities - probably something like this:

Root Mage :g::g:
Creature - Human Druid
Artifacts and lands come into play tapped.
Players can't play artifacts' activated abilities.
Back to the Roots!
2/2

This should unquestionably be called "Magus of the Root."

Barook

06-21-2007, 08:32 PM

But are more beaters really the answer for Green's supposed weakness?
Probably not, but it's the only thing that has a chance to approach the problem under the current design policy without automatically being shit. For example, let's address Phantom's cards under the current policy:

#1: No - White is the weenie color, not green.

#2: Very good design, but I guess some R&Dtard would start complaining about Limited and bump the manacost into janklivion.

#3: Interesting approach, but as you said, probably underpowered. I would rather see something like that working:

Taipan's Fangs :1::g:
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature gets +1/+1 and has Provoke.
Whenever Taipan's Fangs is put into a graveyard from play, return Taipan's Fangs to its owner's hand.

#4: Ivory Mask costs :2::w::w: for a reason because it shuts down too much stuff like discard or burn ("non-interactive"). However, we'll eventually see a green Ivory Mask when Wizards runs out of ideas again (Planar Chaos, i look at you). Mark my words.

#5: Problem is that such card would be considered too "non-interactive" - besides, combo would just bounce it like all the other cards that hose them from going off.

Edit:
This should unquestionably be called "Magus of the Root."
Rather "Magus of the Null Root" :rolleyes:

hi-val

06-21-2007, 08:39 PM

I think Chapin's response to Yawgmoth's Will for Vintage was to print like a 5/3 green creature that when the opponent cast something with "Yawgmoth's" in the title and you had the creature in your hand, you could play it for free and counter that spell. I don't think Legacy Green needs that level of fixing though!

All green has going for it is undercosted stuff. I think "magus" approaches look fine.

Also, this thread needs more Tarpan.

Tacosnape

06-21-2007, 08:43 PM

#1: No - White is the weenie color, not green.

#2: Very good design, but I guess some R&Dtard would start complaining about Limited and bump the manacost into janklivion.

#3: Interesting approach, but as you said, probably underpowered. I would rather see something like that working:

Taipan's Fangs :1::g:
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature gets +1/+1 and has Provoke.
Whenever Taipan's Fangs is put into a graveyard from play, return Taipan's Fangs to its owner's hand.

#4: Ivory Mask costs :2::w::w: for a reason because it shuts down too much stuff like discard or burn ("non-interactive"). However, we'll eventually see a green Ivory Mask when Wizards runs out of ideas again (Planar Chaos, i look at you). Mark my words.

#5: Problem is that such card would be considered too "non-interactive" - besides, combo would just bounce it like all the other cards that hose them from going off.

#1. Why?

#2. Well, in fairness, the original post specified that these designs were for Legacy only. And in further fairness, I don't think this guy's all that much better than Troll Ascetic, which has become core. They can just print him along with a Pyroclasm-clone and everybody's happy. I'm actually most proud of this card.

#3. I don't think your print is any more powerful, but it gives me an idea for a compromise here. What about:
Taipan's Fangs
:1::g:
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature
Split Second
Enchanted creature has Deathtouch and Provoke.
Whenever Taipan's Fangs would be put into a graveyard from play, return Taipan's Fangs to its owner's hand.

Alternately, either one could be given Split Second. Split Second would make the Aura far more appealing by getting rid of the 2 for 1 thing and making the Rancor ability absolute.

#4. Alright, valid point. I don't think I'd ever want Lonelybaritone getting ahold of this card. I might cry.

#5. Alright then. What if we merge cards #4 and #5 into some kind of Vanishing Green Shroud Leyline?

Barook

06-21-2007, 08:51 PM

#1. Why?

#2. Well, in fairness, the original post specified that these designs were for Legacy only. And in further fairness, I don't think this guy's all that much better than Troll Ascetic, which has become core. They can just print him along with a Pyroclasm-clone and everybody's happy. I'm actually most proud of this card.

#3. I don't think your print is any more powerful, but it gives me an idea for a compromise here. What about:
Taipan's Fangs
:1::g:
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature
Split Second
Enchanted creature has Deathtouch and Provoke.
Whenever Taipan's Fangs would be put into a graveyard from play, return Taipan's Fangs to its owner's hand.

Alternately, either one could be given Split Second. Split Second would make the Aura far more appealing by getting rid of the 2 for 1 thing and making the Rancor ability absolute.

#4. Alright, valid point. I don't think I'd ever want Lonelybaritone getting ahold of this card. I might cry.

#5. Alright then. What if we merge cards #4 and #5 into some kind of Vanishing Green Shroud Leyline?
#1: How the hell should I know? It's Wizard's guideline, not mine.

#2: I saw it from a more realistic point. Limited has already ruined alot of otherwise fun cards.

#3: That's probably the best approach yet.

#4 & #5: That just sounds like a bad card that's still too non-interactive.

mikekelley

06-21-2007, 10:22 PM

I have a pipe dream that wizards will stop making cards for limited. I think I will be dreaming for a long, long time. But I digress. I see a lot of good ideas in this thread. I think what green really lacks is instant speed/hasty things. Then it might be too good. Who knows, really.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-21-2007, 10:39 PM

Oh well, I'll cave.

I'd like to see something like;

Card-Drawing Guy
3GG
Creature- Hermit
Echo, Flash
When Card-Drawing Guy comes into play, draw three cards.
2/4

But I think White and Black need more work. White needs more control elements that aren't just creature kill, and Black needs some creatures that are good without Dark Ritual.

mikekelley

06-21-2007, 10:56 PM

What type of control elements, IBA? I mean, Ghostly Prison, Solitary Confinement, Parallax Wave, Rule of Law, and so on. Paired up with some brown white has some formidable control pieces.

264505

06-21-2007, 10:58 PM

9 land stompy is really the only viable green aggro deck in the format and if it wasnt for the 60 dollar berserks it be a relitively cheap and efficient beatdown deck. Between the kavu predator and invigorate interaction plus berserk the deck can put on a turn 3 or 4 clock, but I guess its to fragile to play or something, maybe if there was a creature like

GG
Old Elf
Activated abilities that produce mana cant be played.
1/1

it can be a turn 1 drop off a ESG and shuts of LED, chrome mox, and petal. It gives more time for green to race and isnt completely overpowering IMHO.

Bovinious

06-21-2007, 11:56 PM

Uhh....wouldn't that last one stop lands too, they still have an activated ability even though its not written out...

And they already did the card I think you were trying to make in Null Rod.

Happy Gilmore

06-22-2007, 12:45 AM

Uhh....wouldn't that last one stop lands too, they still have an activated ability even though its not written out...

And they already did the card I think you were trying to make in Null Rod.

I like it.

Nulling Rodney :g: :g:

Creature-Elf Druid

Players cannot play any artifact abilities requiring an activation cost.

3/1

Here is my thought on the subject:

Meddling Gardener :g:

Creature- Elf Shaman

Shroud
Tap an untapped creature you control: target land's type becomes the basic land type of your choice until end of turn.
1/1

It servers two functions, a mana fixer and the ability to mess with your opponents mana. The perfect green utility creature imo.

HPC

06-22-2007, 12:46 AM

The problem with creating something full of green flavor is that Wizards has already declared White the weenie color and rule setting color, which is something green could do well. Instead they've decided green is all about super fatties, which is fine, but gives the color no hope in actually controlling the game which all the other mono colors can do (white w/ StP, blue w/ counter, black w/ disruption, red w/ damage). Green needs access to something that help control their board, something like:

GG
Return to Nature
Instant
Kicker G
Remove all non-creature spells from the stack
If you paid the kicker cost Return to Nature has Split Second

Happy Gilmore

06-22-2007, 12:48 AM

scrumdogg

06-22-2007, 02:11 AM

The problem with green is two-fold & many people have already addressed the issue of lack-of-removal (I especially like the provoke options, which fit with green's theme of creatures, and the recurring Elvish Javelineers). The other problem with green is the inability to disrupt combo going off on your face. My off-the-top-of-my-head fix would be....a creature, of course

:g::g: Llanowar Flagbearer 2/1 Elf Flagbearer
Flash
Echo

While Llanowar Flagbearer is in play, target spell or effect which could target a Flagbearer in play, must target a Flagbearer in play.

While not perfect, it allows Green the opportunity to address combo effects like Goblin Charbelcher & removal slotted for more sensitive creatures.

DrJones

06-22-2007, 03:44 AM

Green, right now, is better than white and black. The only reason you don't see a monocolor deck is because with so many cards and so many mana fixing (at which green is supposedly good) you are imposing yourself an arbitrary deckbuilding restriction by not splashing other colors.

If I had to design a green card to 'fix' it, it would be this:
Ground Herder G
Creature - Human druid
Permanents you control have protection from non-basic lands.
1/1

bye, bye, wastelands.

greenmage

06-22-2007, 04:06 AM

I guess I didn't make this clear enough in my opening post, but I'm not really interested in a debate over whether there is a problem with green. All I'm really interested is answers to the question in bold, so if you don't think there is a problem, you can simply say that you would design nothing (or simply design a cool card or set of cards that doesn't change green in any significant way).

You put the inherent statement into your first post that green is weaker like it is general consensus and then you are surprised when I start discussing it?
But OK, I'll stop discussion (Btw: ichneumon druid, dosan the falling leaf, gaea's blessing, naturalize are combo hate).

I'll just post some cards I created.

You all know that instants are a relatively overused card type compared to all other. Just look through your decklists. My honest oppinion is that instants need something to keep them a bit in check, a hoser, similar to humility for creatures.

Freedom of Mind 1GG
Enchantment
Instants can't be played.

I am well aware of the power level of this card, and it would shake things up. But I don't think it is too powerful. Oh, and it is also an anti combo card.

Animal Kingdom
legendary land
T: G
T: GG if you control a creature

Excelleration that works from turn two is very important in green. Yummy, turn two natural order.

gnurbel2000

06-22-2007, 05:28 AM

What about these suggestions for useful green removal.

Anti- mono green loses to everything

:g::g:
Legendary Creature - Fungus
You don't lose the game for having 0 or less life,
as long as you control another green creature.
0/2

This will give you enough room to improve your board
position against combo without being too good against
control or aggro decks.

Green creature removal:

:g::g:
Creature - Elf
Haste, Provoke, Deathtouch
Except for creatures named ~this~ and artifact creatures,
creatures you control can't attack.
At end of turn, sacrifice ~this~
1/1

You trade a combat phase and a card for a creature.

:g::g::g:
Creature - Elf
Flash, Deathtouch
~This~ can only block two creatures.
You may play this only in an opponents combat phase.
At end of turn sacrifice ~this~
2/1

You can get a 2 for 1 but your opponent will be cautious
when you have 3 green mana open and he will be safe
when he attacks with just one creature.

Jak

06-22-2007, 06:24 AM

Why do all the cards need to be so commited to green. Last I checked even blue and red splash colors. I also don't see why green is the only color without creature removal. Red has burn, white has StP, blue got pongify, and black has a ton.

Anyways, I think green is a good splash color, but it needs creature removal and some combo hate. Can a reverse StP be printed?

??? :g:

Instant

Remove target creature from the game,
you lose life equal to its casting cost.

I also think it needs cheaper, more powerful creatures. Big dudes can only get you so far.

??? :g: :g:

Creature - Centaur Pimp

Trample
When ever ~This~ deals damage to a player draw a card.

2/2

Maybe too good, but green needs good draw. Combo hate is difficult. I think this card's ability could be really cool.

??? :1::g:

Enchantment

Whenever an opponent plays a spell, you may discard a card with converted mana cost equal to that spell. If you do, counter that spell.

I don't know, but it sounds cool.

greenmage

06-22-2007, 07:09 AM

I had another idea.

We had desertstorm.

Why not:

Sandstorm :2: :g: :g:
Sorcery
Destroy target permanent.

Useable in any green deck with a mana engine.

Barook

06-22-2007, 08:03 AM

The main problem with green creature removal is that Wizards won't print it "because green doesn't get creature removal".

Considering the problem, Provoke was a quite good, flavorful solution, dealing with the removal problem via fat creatures. The only reason why Provoke horribly failed was crappy design (it was Legions, after all) which resulted in overcosted jank creatures nobody played.

Imho, Provoke definitely deserves a second chance to shine, but this time well-executed, similiar to Cycling in the Onslaught block.

Tinefol

06-22-2007, 09:07 AM

You all know that instants are a relatively overused card type compared to all other. Just look through your decklists. My honest oppinion is that instants need something to keep them a bit in check, a hoser, similar to humility for creatures.

There's already a hoser for instants and as mentioned unfortunately it is blue. Teferi. It would have fitted green so well :-/

I had another idea.
We had desertstorm.
Why not:
Sandstorm :2: :g: :g:
Sorcery
Destroy target permanent.

More like Desert Twister. They would probably never print anything better than Desert Twister though. Or Unyaro Bee Sting for that matter. And nobody would play these cards, except in Limited. So permanent removal or direct damage spell is a dead way.

Nightmare

06-22-2007, 09:12 AM

There's already a hoser for instants and as mentioned unfortunately it is blue. Teferi. It would have fitted green so well :-/http://magiccards.info/lg/en/105.html

Tinefol

06-22-2007, 09:16 AM

http://magiccards.info/lg/en/105.html
Wow, it looks almost as janky as Unyaro Bee Sting. Probably even worse. Haha! Thanks for bringing it up, I never knew, even thought, such a card existed.

Nightmare

06-22-2007, 09:20 AM

It used to be a way for Survival to try and hose Solidarity. It didn't work, but they tried.

C.P.

06-22-2007, 10:02 AM

My suggestions on the matter.

Elvish Flower

:2::g:
Creature - Elf
When Elvish Plower comes into play, put target land on top of its owner's library
2/1

Wise Hermit

:g:
Creature - Druid
Fading 3
Players cannot play more than one noncreature spells per turn.
0/2

Peter_Rotten

06-22-2007, 10:21 AM

:g:
Creature - Druid
Fading 3
Players cannot play more than one noncreature spell per turn.
0/2

Interesting. Hoses Storm combo until the mid-game. It buys you maybe 3 draws/turns. Also, it blocks Lackey.

Peter_Rotten

06-22-2007, 01:28 PM

Stay on topic please. Make a good green card.

Phantom

06-22-2007, 02:01 PM

Also, while the Green ritual would be nothing but trouble, what if their were similar fast mana effects that could only be used to cast summon spells? Could that be abused by combo (Gamekeeper maybe)?

Hmmm.

Or how about a X. Swarm like creature that prevented the opponent from going off the next turn if it connected?

Pwnstar91

06-22-2007, 02:10 PM

Or how about a X. Swarm like creature that prevented the opponent from going off the next turn if it connected?

Very Loudly Buzzing But Only On Your Opponents Turn Swarm
G
Flying Whenever Very Loudly Buzzing But Only On Your Opponents Turn Swarm attacks name a card, Defending player cannot play the named card during their next turn.

I think the name is too long, they are never going to make a card like that.

Tacosnape

06-22-2007, 02:15 PM

I suppose we could always take "Intellectual Property Rights" and make it into an actual green card.

:g:
Nature's Singularity
Enchantment
Cards, permanents, and spells can't be copied.

Shuts down Storm, Isochron Scepter, Twincast, and that ever obnoxious Clone that's aimed at your Tarmogoyf. Or...something.

Tinefol

06-22-2007, 02:17 PM

Green Ritual which said spend this mana only on creature spells (possibly on green creature spells) would actually be good and not so broken. On other hand why would it be more broken than Dark Ritual as is?

DrJones

06-22-2007, 02:31 PM

Metamorphosis + Free creatures (Skyshroud cutter + Vine dryad)

noobslayer

06-22-2007, 03:25 PM

Nightmare

06-22-2007, 03:39 PM

Magus of the Woods :2::g:

Human Wizard

When Magus of the Woods comes into play, name a land card.

The named land gains Dredge 1 and Cycling :1:.

2/3

What does that Magus replicate? I feel dumb for even asking.

Good Green Creature
:g:
Each time an opponent plays a spell targetting you or a creature you control, draw a card.
1/1

Magus of the Compost
:1::g:
Whenever a black card goes to an opponent's graveyard, you may draw a card.
3/2

noobslayer

06-22-2007, 03:48 PM

It's not replicating anything, that's the only shit name I could come up with.

EDIT: Is there a magus for sylvan library?

Sylvan Etchings :1::g:

Sorcery

Draw a card, then draw a card for each card named Sylvan Etchings in all graveyards.

Forestcycling :2:

EDIT 2: Call "Magus of the Woods" something like "Thicket Elder."

jamest

06-22-2007, 03:49 PM

Gaea's Meddle :g:
Instant
You may remove a green card in your hand from the game rather than pay Gaea's Meddle's mana cost.
Counter target activated or triggered ability.

Nightmare

06-22-2007, 03:52 PM

Gaea's Meddle :g:
Instant
You may remove a green card in your hand from the game rather than pay Gaea's Meddle's mana cost.
Counter target activated or triggered ability.Interesting. A pitch-Stifle is a card many have expressed a desire for. Making it green is a nice twist. We can see from Bind that the mechanic has been green before. I like it.

tivadar

06-22-2007, 03:52 PM

Honestly, I think the reason any color is broken/not broken in Legacy has to do with individual generic overpowered cards. Look at it this way:

White:
STP/Condemn
Black:
Duress
Hymn
Blue:
Force of Will
Brainstorm
Red:
Lightning Bolt (maybe?)
Green:
Nothing

First off, please note, this card list is off the top of my head. You'll notice pretty much every card on that list is old. They're staples if you're playing that color (and not playing combo), or close to. Sure, green doesn't have this, which does make it somewhat subpar, but not necessarily a terrible color.

Let's face it, Legacy is a creature format. For this reason, colors that can deal well with creatures tend to be the dominant ones. This makes white and black, and to a lesser extent red, top dogs here.

So what? Who cares? Green is not underpowered, it's just underpowered in the current Legacy meta. Do I think wizards should correct this? No! I think wizards should build cards based on what each color is designed to do. Each has its strengths and weaknesses, and there's really no reason to change that.

By the way, combo is growing now. When this happens, white will be just as bad as green in this respect. Everyone knows their combo tools tend to be sub-par. The two strongest colors are those with generic hate, or black and blue. Once again, I'm OK with this, as that hate tends to be sub-par to specific hate in a more generic field.

Anyways, what's my point? Why does green need to be changed? Why not red (which is just as bad as mono-green outside of goblins, and I don't think that counts, as it's almost a combo deck)? Green has its strengths, and it does them very well ala krosan grip and naturalize.

06-22-2007, 06:01 PM

Gaea's Meddle
Instant
You may remove a green card in your hand from the game rather than pay Gaea's Meddle's mana cost.
Counter target activated or triggered ability.

/dies. There's no way it'd be 1cc and ACC though. It'd probably have to cost like 1GG or 2G for that to work, but still it'd be absolutely retarded.

mikekelley

06-22-2007, 06:04 PM

Far less retarded than force of will, though.

Can anyone explain how Pernicious Deed fits into green? I have never understood.

Machinus

06-22-2007, 06:16 PM

Can anyone explain how Pernicious Deed fits into green? I have never understood.

Green: good at killing artifacts and enchantments, bad at killing creatures.
Black: good at killing creatures, bad at killing artifacts and enchantments.

Black + Green: unstoppable board-sweeping machine.

Zach Tartell

06-22-2007, 07:03 PM

I've thought of this often, having rocked the shit out of a green deck, but scooping to combo (see TMLO:II day 1, top 8).

hmm... I really like the idea of a :g: cost enchantment that works as ivory mask, even if it has fading 3 (coughreplenishcough). Maybe something like the leyline idea, with a more restrictive cost. Maybe 4:g::g:, and fading four. That way you'd have to mull into it, or have accelleration (BOP, Utopia sprawl, Mana Bond, ETC) to power it out before tendrils/brain freeze gets out there. Also, it'd be good to be an enchantment, so it doesn't die to creature removial (Platnium angel), but is still open to removal that should be played. And it can be bounced, so decks that don't have enchantment destruction will be able to bounce it. Get to mark Rosewater; I'll wait.

scrumdogg

06-22-2007, 08:52 PM

The green ritual would fit amazingly into CRET belcher over dark ritual.

Magus of the Woods :2::g:

Human Wizard

When Magus of the Woods comes into play, name a land card.

The named land gains Dredge 1 and Cycling :1:.

2/3

To be remotely balanced, it should say name a non-basic land card...as this plus a deck full of forests is not right....or whichever basic land you are running a ton of as it currently is a splashable card with only a single :g: in the cc. Quite frankly, to be fair (and not sucked up by all the colors as good green has been throughout recorded history) unless these creatures are 1cc, they should all have :g::g: at a minimum in the cc.

Finn

06-22-2007, 09:14 PM

What do you suggest or design?

Don't know if it was said, but Tarmogoyf. A color can't do everyting. And this thing does Green's thing absurdly well.

Happy Gilmore

06-22-2007, 10:15 PM

An extremely interesting creature kill spell for green:

:g:
Instant

Destroy target creature, it can't be regenerated. At the beginning of the first main phase of target creature's controller, that player adds X to their mana pool, where X is the casting cost of target creature. This mana cannot cause manaburn.

I'm not sure how best to phrase it but it can be used as both a mana accelerant (at the cost of a creature) and a creature kill spell that potentially helps your opponent.

Unfortunately it would probably end up as a combo card. :frown:

mikekelley

06-22-2007, 10:24 PM

How about...

'...Destroy target creature you don't control. Then add...'

06-22-2007, 10:41 PM

This one sounds better:

Flametongue Centaur
3G
Flametongue Centaur deals 4 damage to target creature.
4/2

Why in the hell could they not have made this in Time Spiral Block? It would've been fucking perfect.

Cire

06-23-2007, 12:00 AM

Pwnstar91

06-23-2007, 12:12 AM

How would they justify that, in any philosophy of green?

A Green creature that was mutated by the unnatural powers of the Mirari was given the power to breath fire? They would probably just say why it does that in the flavor text.

06-23-2007, 12:29 AM

How would they justify that, in any philosophy of green?

The same way they justify printing Force Spike and Strafe in white. A green FTK would ideally be the prefect green creature (not to mention the greatest Survival target this world has ever seen.....)

Cire

06-23-2007, 12:34 AM

okay, I understand, but to make it have more sense make it weaker give it flying and make it a bee, since bee's are basicly the only green creatures that burn ....

greenmage

06-23-2007, 06:14 PM

okay, I understand, but to make it have more sense make it weaker give it flying and make it a bee, since bee's are basicly the only green creatures that burn ....

You mean making it so weak that it is unplayable? That defeats the purpose of this thread.
Who cares about flying if the body is too small!

Cire

06-23-2007, 11:03 PM

I never said make it super weak how about:

~~ 3G
Creature insect
When it comes into play deal 3 damage to target creature
Flying
3/2

noobslayer

06-23-2007, 11:16 PM

Grendel Spawn :3::g:

Creature- Abomination

At the beginning of your upkeep, put the top card of your library into the graveyard.

Remove two lands in your graveyard from the game: Deal 2 damage to target creature or player.

4/5

06-24-2007, 12:02 AM

That thing is retarded, possibly even too retarded. LftL decks abusing that thing would be insane. Maybe it would have a cumulative upkeep instead...but that might make it better. Still, WotC needs to print a green creature with direct damage. An FTK would be best. Or, something insanely broken list this:

1GG
Green Fire Imp on Crack
When Green Fire Imp on Crack comes into play, it deals 3 damage to target creature.
3/2

That would be the hotness. It's cheap enough to be cast early, kills things, and provides decent beats. I can dream. Or, I think this would probably be the best thing they can print for green right now:

G
Grrrrrrrrrrrress
Target opponent reveals his or her hand. Choose a noncreature, nonland card from it. That player discards that card.

Oh gawd that would be nuts.

Cire

06-24-2007, 12:07 AM

mikekelley

06-24-2007, 12:28 AM

Super Bee GGG
Flying, Haste, Vanishing 2
When Super Bee leaves into play, it deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
2/3

I like the flavor of the super bee idea, so i worked with it a little bit.

sammiel

06-24-2007, 12:29 AM

why does it have to be GGG when flametongue kavu is 3R?

MattH

06-24-2007, 12:35 AM

Some kind of Ashen Ghoul or Ichorid style creature (something that keeps coming back to life) would be in-flavor and very good in green, as it would live through Wrath and so on.

(gigapede doesn't count, mostly because of the 1 toughness)

Spirit of Life
1GG
Creature -- Spirit
3/4
Whenever a green creature is put into your graveyard from play, if Spirit of Life is in your graveyard, you may return it to play. If you do, it gains haste until end of turn.

They probably will never give green the ability to kill large creatures (anything over x/1) directly, because that steals too obviously from red and black's territories. Green FTK is a pipe dream.

Bryant Cook

06-24-2007, 12:39 AM

I'm going to win the thread.

Nature's Force 3GG

Instant

You may remove a green card in your hand from the game and pay 1 life instead of paying for Nature's Force.

Counter target spell.

"Wow. Green Sucks." - Llanowar Elf

xsockmonkeyx

06-24-2007, 12:40 AM

Nature's Revenge 3G
Sorcery- Destroy all lands

Torrential Rain GG
Sorcery- Destroy target land.

Black Bear 1G
When Black Bear comes into play draw a card.
2/2

Harmonic Orangutan 2G
When Harmonic Orangutan comes into play destroy target Artifact or Enchantment.
2/2

Green Elemental Blast G
Instant - Destroy a blue card in play or counter target blue spell.

Spectral Boa 1G
Protection from White
U: Regenerate
2/1

Starvation 1G
Instant - Destroy target non-green non-artifact creature. It cant be regenerated.

Flash Flooding 4GG
Instant - Target instant or sorcery gains Storm.

Wilt G
Instant - counter target triggered or activated ability.

Renewal 2GG
Untap or tap all artifacts, lands or creatures target play controls.

Bear Cave
Land
T: Add G to your mana pool
1G: Bear Cave becomes a 2/2 green Bear creature permenantly.

kirdape3

06-24-2007, 12:53 AM

The closest is Unyaro Bees to anything like that.

Unyaro Bees
Creature - Insect
Flying
G: Unyaro Bees gets +1/+1 until end of turn
3G, Sacrifice Unyaro Bees: Unyaro Bees deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
0/1

Hummingbird TG

06-24-2007, 04:31 AM

Nature's Wrath 1GGG
Sorcery

Storm

Destroy up to 2 target permanents.

Good Accelerator 1G
Sorcery

Search your library for a basic forest and put it into play.
Draw a card.

Good Green LD GG

Instant

Destroy target non-basic land.
Draw a card.

And,

Ancestral Regrowth G

Instant

I bet you all know what is gonna be here.

(the last one is, of course, utterly broken and is a joke.)

georgjorge

06-24-2007, 03:06 PM

I would REALLY like to see that Nature's Wrath printed, if only for flavor...and it seems playable with some Petals (how green...) and Wild Cantors.

Barook

06-25-2007, 07:04 AM

Good Green LD GG
Instant
Destroy target non-basic land.
Draw a card.
I like the idea behind that card, but Wizards wouldn't print instant speed LD for 2 mana, especially in green and with cantripping added. Something like this would be more realistic:

Good Green LD MK II :1::g::g:
Sorcery
Destroy target land. If that land is nonbasic, you may draw a card.

Hummingbird TG

06-28-2007, 10:03 AM

Nature's Wrath is in flavor. It shows green as a primal force. Besides, if you think destroying permanents is not in flavor, see Desert Twister. Oh, and an on flavor creature kill spell:

Consume 1GG

Sorcery

Destroy target creature. Put a +1/+1 counter on a Beast you control. Play this only if you control a Beast.

Happy Gilmore

06-28-2007, 10:20 AM

Barook

06-28-2007, 10:37 AM

Nature's Wrath is in flavor. It shows green as a primal force. Besides, if you think destroying permanents is not in flavor, see Desert Twister.
Take into consideration how old Desert Twister is - it's not in flavor anymore.

Green FoW has no justification, but green Stifle would be awesome - i don't get it why this kind of ability was moved from green to blue in the first place. :confused:

Hummingbird TG

06-28-2007, 11:02 AM

Eh, never. Mono Blue Chalice Stompy isnt tier one now, is it?

EDIT: Besides, Green doesnt make sense as a peaceful, non-killing color. In an ecosystem, animals kill each other. Alot.

nitewolf9

06-28-2007, 11:14 AM

I know the exact card that wotc should print in order to make green a powerhouse:

Japanese Beatle :0:

Trample, Haste

Japanese Beatle is green. As an additional cost to play japanese beatle, discard
2 forest cards from your hand.

20/20

I think green should have a pitch stifle, like force of will only green and it stifles instead of countering. That would be interesting. It could be called "Green force of stifle card".

Hummingbird TG

06-28-2007, 12:20 PM

The Green 'Force Stifle' thing you're talking about would only be a good out against Combo, but nothing else, not like the maindeck card Force is. It's too narrow to be worth a card, IMO, unless in a combo match like TES or Belcher

sammiel

06-28-2007, 12:25 PM

considering that green decks usually have a terrible combo matchup, I think a green pitch stifle would be pretty nice.

Or maybe reprint bind, but make it triggered as well as activated abilities. Gives green at least some option.

SpatulaOfTheAges

06-28-2007, 01:06 PM

Card #5:
Leyline of the Heart
:1::g::g:
Enchantment
Vanishing 4
If Leyline of the Heart is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it in play.
You can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game.

Dear Wizards: Please, Please, for the Love of Holy Hulk Hogan, print this card.

Love and Kisses,
Enchantress.

greenmage

06-28-2007, 01:47 PM

Take into consideration how old Desert Twister is - it's not in flavor anymore.

Is it not?
Wizards also had no problem printing U creature removal (pongify, spinal parasite) in planar chaos and that's considered completely out of pie nowadays. Yes, I know about the whole colour shifting thingy, but they talked about adding abilities that somehow fit the flavour, and U removal doesn't fit U in the slightest way. By the way, venomous vines is a desert twister variant that's not that old. Why is green controlling the winds suddenly out of flavour?

For the pitch-stifle, I'd never play it. Rather give me my chalices and t-spheres and dosans.

Samshire

06-28-2007, 01:58 PM

I think that if there were more cheap green creatures with provoke, Green would be a little better. It fits into the green color perfectly, in my opinion.

But honestly, in a format where you can play dual lands and fetch lands, I would doubt that there would be that many mono-colored decks to begin with. Lorwyn is supposed to have a mono-colored theme, so maybe if they print like 20 really good green cards a mono-green deck will be viable.

Oh, and because I'm a master designer at cards.....this would fix green.

Primal Fury of Cantor's Wrath :u: :u:

Primal Fury of Cantor's Wrath is Green

Counter Target Spell

Barook

06-28-2007, 02:36 PM

Why is green controlling the winds suddenly out of flavour?
How exactly can a Forest cause a Desert Twister?

Wizards also had no problem printing U creature removal (pongify, spinal parasite) in planar chaos and that's considered completely out of pie nowadays. Yes, I know about the whole colour shifting thingy, but they talked about adding abilities that somehow fit the flavour, and U removal doesn't fit U in the slightest way.
Bad example. You know, it's blue. And blue gets fucking everything. Get over it.

Nightmare

06-28-2007, 02:44 PM

How exactly can a Forest cause a Desert Twister?How can it cause a Hurricane? How can a Plains invoke the Wrath of God? What difference does it make?

zulander

06-28-2007, 02:53 PM

This card would fix green.

Holistic Knowledge
:g: --Instant
Target player draws 3 cards.

I think this card in any color "fixes" that color though, but nonetheless.

EDIT : DOH someone beat me to this one.
Also, a green duress would make PERFECT sense. It helps green against combo and it fits the whole 'Green likes creatures and only creatures' color wheel.

greenmage

06-28-2007, 04:01 PM

How exactly can a Forest cause a Desert Twister?

Many spells aren't really tied to the landscape. Green also always was the colour of storms. I could name quite a few examples.

Bad example. You know, it's blue. And blue gets fucking everything. Get over it.

I don't really want to accept. I am simply not a person who gives up easily.

Hummingbird TG

06-29-2007, 03:46 AM

Well. here's a green Ancestral variant that ain't broken.

Ancestral Recoup GG

Sorcery

Spend only mana from basic lands to play this.

Draw 3 cards.

Illissius

06-29-2007, 09:01 AM

Mystery Guy
1G
Creature -- Lhurgoyf
6/7

I was going to question the premise of this thread -- green is doing fine in Legacy -- but the opening post doesn't actually state anything to the contrary. The main complaint seems to be the lack of a potential monogreen deck.

There's two ways to fix that: print a new engine card (you aren't going to create a deck with a support card); or print support cards to strengthen existing decks. In either case, with a heavy affinity for using other green cards.

The latter sounds easier, so here are the notable decks we could target:

- Survival of the Fittest
- Elves
- Secret Force
- Stompy

The first two are more interesting. Survival already requires a large commitment to green, but many of the best ways to use it are in other colors. With Mongrel, Rofellos, Cradle, and pals, a Madness build doesn't seem too far off, though. Here's some ideas:

Vitality
3G
Creature -- Incarnation
2/2
Haste
As long as Vitality is in your graveyard and you control a Forest, creatures you control have haste.

I was hoping for this in Planar Chaos, actually, but no luck.

A Better Sylvan Safekeeper
G
Creature -- Elf
1/2
Discard a card: Target creature gains shroud until end of turn.
Suck my balls, Lackey.

The Chameleon of Subdual
1GG
Creature -- Lizard
2/3
Flash
When The Chameleon of Subdual comes into play, mana in each player's mana pool becomes colorless, and if tapped for mana, permanents produce colorless mana instead of any other type until end of turn.
Madness G

Elves already have analogues for many of the broken cards in Goblins. They probably only need a couple more busted cards to get in range (and we might get them in Lorwyn).

Llanowar Harvester
G
Creature -- Elf
1/1
Whenever an Elf you control attacks, add G to your mana pool. This mana doesn't cause mana burn. Until end of turn, this mana doesn't empty from your mana pool as phases end.

Skyshroud Captain
1GG
Creature -- Elf
2/2
Flash
When Skyshroud Captain comes into play, Elves you control get +2/+2 and gain trample until end of turn.

Elven Hasteisbroken
GG
Creature -- Elf
2/2
When Elven Hasteisbroken comes into play, other Elves you control gain haste until end of turn.

And here's something for Secret Force:

Huge Scary Fog Monster
7GGG
Creature -- Fog Monster
10/10
Trample
Shroud
G: Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn.
Look at me, I'm DSC!

zulander

06-29-2007, 09:35 AM

Wouldn't Tribal Forcemage and Centaur Chieftan fit 2 of the cards you mentioned? I've seen Forcemage played in an Elf deck but I honestly think that people need to play Chieftan more, he's too good not to.

Hummingbird TG

06-29-2007, 10:35 AM

My Ancestral variant costing GG is fair and is probably just what green needs. Green doesnt really need much else with a GG draw 3 which can only be played off basics.

MattH

06-30-2007, 10:58 AM

Take into consideration how old Desert Twister is - it's not in flavor anymore.

Green FoW has no justification, but green Stifle would be awesome - i don't get it why this kind of ability was moved from green to blue in the first place. :confused:
Interdict came before Bind...

shteev

06-30-2007, 11:03 AM

Elf of Kher Keep
(0)
1/1
Elf of Kher Keep is green.

troopatroop

06-30-2007, 11:15 AM

Consuming Glob 1G

Creature type - Glob

At the beginning of your upkeep, you may place 1 Moss counter on any 1 target land opponent controls.

Lands with Moss counters on them are Forests

Consuming Glob can't be the target of Spells or Abilities

1/2

Hummingbird TG

07-01-2007, 06:26 AM

Overpowered against all but combo...

Phantom

07-02-2007, 04:56 PM

Troopatroop: The glob seems a bit out of control since it could be powered out turn one, and would negate many of the sweepers he could be hit with (like Wrath). I like that thinking though. Green needs more control over mana.

Any thoughts on these (over or unserpowered?):

Acidic Downpour GG
Destroy target basic land or two target nonbasic lands.

Bears of Nature GG
When Bears of Nature come into play, you may destroy target artifact or enchantment.
2/2

Ground Swarm G
If Ground Swarm attacks and is not blocked, you may draw a card.
0/1

Buzzing Swarm G
Flying.
If Buzzing Swarm deals combat damage to an opponent, that opponent may only play one non creature spell durning their next turn.
1/1

Ambidextrous Ameba GGG
When Ambidextrous Ameba comes into play, you may search your library for an aura or equipment card and attach it to Ambidextrous Ameba.
2/3

greenmage

07-02-2007, 05:20 PM

nitewolf9

07-02-2007, 05:23 PM

Faulty Evolution of Kross Abor Eboliajoviavich
:g: :g:
instant

Split second

Choose one: Put a 4/1 KAE token into play. That token has trample and haste, sacrifice it at EOT, OR target opponent may not play non-creature spells this turn, OR destroy target artifact, OR search your library for an equipment card and put that card into play, OR target opponent gets 9 poison counters

Phantom

07-02-2007, 05:27 PM

Your sinkhole is broken, your ameba probably too. Ameba+mythic proportions=faaat, and if it gets nuked you don't even have CD.

Yeah, but then you would be running Mythic proportions...

As for the sinkhole, is it really that broken? It's not even that good against any tier one deck (Goblins has Vial, Thresh has Daze to make it fizzle, and it is a poor answer to 8 1/1's) and green lacks Ritual to power it out on turn 1 (ESG could I guess). I could see it being a powerful tool for green against control though.

greenmage

07-02-2007, 05:40 PM

Yeah, but then you would be running Mythic proportions...

As for the sinkhole, is it really that broken? It's not even that good against any tier one deck (Goblins has Vial, Thresh has Daze to make it fizzle, and it is a poor answer to 8 1/1's) and green lacks Ritual to power it out on turn 1 (ESG could I guess). I could see it being a powerful tool for green against control though.

One proportions in the whole deck would be enough. But I'd like to see it print anyway, it would be downright broken in my rogue deck (uses pattern of rebirth in a silly way). :tongue:

The green sinkhole would hit two lands most of the time, and that does seem very powerful. You could play it on turn two leaving a birdie back. That would be pretty high tempo advantage. But maybe it isn't broken, I'm not sure.

Phantom

07-02-2007, 06:27 PM

But I'd like to see it print anyway, it would be downright broken in my rogue deck (uses pattern of rebirth in a silly way). :tongue:

Like in a competitive deck? lol

But seriously, it would suffer the same fate that many tutors do (Namely playing unplayable cards and diluting your deck with jank). The equipment part might be broken though, as it would make even a StP card disadvantage for the opponent. Still, the CC of the creature has bad synergy with decks that run equipment, which like to load up on he colorless land.

I don't know. I guess my thinking was, Troll Ascetic is an amazing creature, and is virtually unplayable in Legacy, so we need to go more broken than that.

Xero

07-02-2007, 07:03 PM

Phantom

07-02-2007, 07:17 PM

I really like both of those, Xero. Both symetrical, and both hit combo hard (the second one kills ETW tokens, right?). The second one would be terrible against Goblins though (and should probably be GG just so it's not splashable) because I never want to see 3/3 Matrons and 4/4 Hasty Ringleaders.

greenmage

07-03-2007, 05:42 AM

Like in a competitive deck? lol

Hey, don't mock my rogue deck. It is way over the average power competitive legacy decks have. :eek:

But seriously, it would suffer the same fate that many tutors do (Namely playing unplayable cards and diluting your deck with jank). The equipment part might be broken though, as it would make even a StP card disadvantage for the opponent. Still, the CC of the creature has bad synergy with decks that run equipment, which like to load up on he colorless land.

I don't know. I guess my thinking was, Troll Ascetic is an amazing creature, and is virtually unplayable in Legacy, so we need to go more broken than that.

It may be more balanced if you weaken its body. Make it a 1/2, for instance. That would give opposing decks a chance to react properly to its cip trigger and thus make it more balanced.

Barook

07-03-2007, 07:11 AM

I'll give this a try:

Green Resistance
:g:
Enchantment
Each spell costs an additional X to play, where X is the number of spells played before it this turn.

March of the CCs
:1: :g:
Each creature has a power and toughness equal to its converted mana-cost.

I would far prefer both of these cards in White, but that's a different thread...

Both are excellent ideas, but yeah, both tend to be white. At least the first one can be easily fixed to fit into green:

Green Resistance
:g:
Enchantment
Each non-creature spell costs an additional X to play, where X is the number of spells played before it this turn.

Now Green can play its creatures without any problems, while their Counterspells already cost :1: more to counter your critters. And combo is still hosed the same way. The main concern with this card, however, is to track the number of spells played this turn. But I guess that's less of a problem with Storm being quite similiar.

greenmage

07-04-2007, 05:30 AM

Both are excellent ideas, but yeah, both tend to be white. At least the first one can be easily fixed to fit into green:

Green Resistance
:g:
Enchantment
Each non-creature spell costs an additional X to play, where X is the number of spells played before it this turn.

Now Green can play its creatures without any problems, while their Counterspells already cost :1: more to counter your critters. And combo is still hosed the same way. The main concern with this card, however, is to track the number of spells played this turn. But I guess that's less of a problem with Storm being quite similiar.

This is ingenious. I really love it. :cool:

HdH_Cthulhu

07-08-2007, 09:52 AM

but combo could bounce it back eot and then go off wich it does with every other hate card...

Barook

07-08-2007, 09:55 AM

but combo could bounce it back eot and then go off wich it does with every other hate card...

So, what's your point? Stating the obvious? :confused:

HdH_Cthulhu

07-09-2007, 05:04 PM

Yes you are right!

so!
In the whole thread all people talk and making cards that you could play green as a monocolerd deck in Legacy! But that will never happen!

Lol a Mono green deck in legacy!

Wizards will never print better cards than StP, FoW, Dures, Bolt so you will ever make a splash for these cards... The best anti combo and creature cards are old cards do you realy thing they make better new cards in green!?

Think the cards must go through t2 and extended!

The only thing i could think is to print some broken elves to make elves better than goblins. Thene maby thene someone will play elves.
But elves couldnt beat TES ever, so it is not so broken!

So Wizards print some imba elves :) Llanowar Lakey!?

Hummingbird TG

07-10-2007, 11:07 AM

But seriously. However imbal, they are green. Which means they would suck no matter almost what.

zulander

07-10-2007, 11:28 AM

A green in the eye of chaos would fit pretty nice.

HdH_Cthulhu

07-18-2007, 05:40 PM

Would this card change anything?

Real Nature
GGGG
sorcery
you could only use Mana from
Basiclands to play Real Nature

You win the Game

It is a realy theroretical question... But i think no!

Goaswerfraiejen

07-18-2007, 05:56 PM

The only thing i could think is to print some broken elves to make elves better than goblins. Thene maby thene someone will play elves.
But elves couldnt beat TES ever, so it is not so broken!

Green can beat Empty the Warrens without a problem thanks to Sandstorm. It's Tendrils that's rather more difficult.

Green is currently doing well. What it lacks, in my opinion, is versatility as a colour--there's really not a whole lot that it can do, especially on its own. How do we "fix" this over time? Well, one solution is to put spells on playabl;e sticks, but that's very limited and largely uninteresting. Evoke (Lorwyn) seems like it could do this pretty nicely, but honestly, it's not a very interesting solution. Another would be, as has been said, to push Elves a little more. As a tribe, Elves really aren't missing very much. They don't need a Lackey (since they have Priest of Titania and so on), but they do need something roughly equivalent to Gempalm Incinerator (ie. removal) and, perhaps, Goblin Piledriver (although not necessarily, since there are a number of decent elven beatsticks). In any case, Lorwyn might well bring some very interesting elves.

As a colour, however, I'm not sure how much design space it has in which to be "fixed". It would be very nice to have Green start using more instants/sorceries that affect the game state, but in what way? Mana control? I honestly don't know.

Hanni

07-18-2007, 05:57 PM

How about this one?

Tarmogoyf
1G
Creature
Tarmogoyf gets +1/+1 for each card type in your frickin graveyard.
0/1

But seriously, I like this one:

Llanowar Nuisance
G
Creature (Elf)
When Llanowar Nuisance deals combat damage to a player, you may put an Elf card from your hand into play.
1/1

Yea, it's a Llanowar Lackey like the guy above me already mentioned, but... Elves would be Tier 1 with this guy, IMO.

Barook

07-18-2007, 06:39 PM

Llanowar Nuisance
G
Creature (Elf)
When Llanowar Nuisance deals combat damage to a player, you may put an Elf card from your hand into play.
1/1

Yea, it's a Llanowar Lackey like the guy above me already mentioned, but... Elves would be Tier 1 with this guy, IMO.
I doubt that - sure dropping Deranged Hermit early would be good, especially with Gaea's Cradle, but Elves would still lack things like Warchief, Piledriver and Matron.

Sanguine Voyeur

07-18-2007, 06:44 PM

How about this one?

Tarmogoyf
1G
Creature
Tarmogoyf gets +1/+1 for each card type in your frickin graveyard.
0/1A strictly worse version of Tarmogoyf?

SilverGreen

07-18-2007, 09:49 PM

I think the color is all about growth, but modern Legacy doesn't allow it the time required to properly grow. I simply loved some cards like the anti-combo, anti-Lackey vanisher druid, the Null Rod guy or the provocative centaur bombshell, all of them seem like effective ways to fix some of green's core weaknesses without any serious mess with the color wheel.

I also agree with the fact that green doen't need weenies to rule the board, in fact strengthened fatties should be the true green MVPs.

Here's my attempt to make some green enablers in Legacy:

Fattie Life Insurance :1::g::g:
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant green creature with power 4 or greater
Enchanted creature gets +3/+0, has trample, and has shroud.
If enchanted creature is put into a graveyard from play, draw two cards.

Pesky Elf :g:
Creature - Pesky Elf
When Pesky Elf comes into play, choose a creature type.
Whenever Pesky Elf deals or is dealt damage by a creature of the chosen type, regenerate Pesky Elf.
1/1

Fittest Survivors :2::g:
Creature - ?
At the beggining of your upkeep, if Fittest Survivors and two other cards named Fittest Survivors are in your graveyard, you may return a card named Fittest Survivors from your graveyard to your hand.
3/3

Rebirther Buddie :g::g:
Creature - Buddie
Flash
When Rebirther Buddie comes into play, if a player was the target of a spell or ability this turn, each player's life total becomes 20.
2/2

And a double homage (to a friend and to you know who):

Rancored Elf :1::g::g:
Creature - Elf Warrior
Trample
When Rancored Elf is put into a graveyard from play, your may return Rancored Elf from your graveyard to your hand.
3/1

07-19-2007, 12:37 AM

I doubt that - sure dropping Deranged Hermit early would be good, especially with Gaea's Cradle, but Elves would still lack things like Warchief, Piledriver and Matron.

What you lose in those you would gain in other aspects such as the pump Elves (Gemplam, Tribal Forcemage, Elvish Champion), and other fat that can be played for very cheap (Lackey in Wirewood Guardian woohoo). There is a sort of Matron in Wirewood Herald, although it's not nearly as good.

Then there's still the matter of printing a Fanatic and Incinerator...

Maveric78f

07-19-2007, 06:28 AM

Elves are already pretty good and can be considered as much a good deck as rabid wombat. Elves can take a combo game plan or an aggro game plan, as well as gob will food chain.

Fecundity of nature
%G %G
Sorcery
Until the end of turn, whenever a permanent comes into play under your control, you may draw a card.

Viridian cache
Land
~this~ comes into play tapped
%T : add %1 to your mana pool
%G %G %T : destroy target enchantment or artifact with a mana converted cost equal to the number of lands you control or less (bad wording I guess)

Big fattie missing to green for having naturel order a playable card %6 %G %G %G %G %G
Legendary creature
Trample, Rampage 3, Provoke, Reach, regeneration %G %G,
~this~ can't be targetted by opponents
~this~ can block several creatures

That's pretty too good

Hoojo

07-19-2007, 09:35 AM

Pillar of Dimension
1:g:
Enchantment
Spells cannot be copied.

Gheizen64

07-20-2007, 02:48 PM

If Green is the color of Growth, then give it growth... Aggressive enough growth. Or go more along the lines of card like Root Maze.

Card like this for example:

Entangling Root
GG
Creature - Plant
Defender
Vanishing 4.
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player tap a permanent he or she control for each time counter on Entangling Root.
0/2

I think fit nicely in the Green spectrum, even if something like this:

Monstrous Edera
1G
Creature Plant
Cumulative Upkeep G
At the beginning of your opponent upkeep, tap a permanent that player control for each age counter on Monstrous Edera.
0/1

Would fit more nicely in the Green flavor of growth.

The problem is those card are also white...

The only thing to do, would be to push elves toward the limit imho. Creature should be the color of creature after all. Eladamri is nice with is shroud ability, but elves lacks reach and their best creature (Priest) cost 1G and reward overextending. Lackey is on a total different level, allowing you to play the disruption game and saving open mana while laying threat.