PDA

View Full Version : The Cure (Kavu Predator / False Cure)



Pages : [1] 2

DrJones
06-22-2007, 11:05 AM
The Cure
http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGONS/false_cure.jpghttp://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGPLACHA/kavu_predator.jpghttp://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGBET/berserk.jpg
(Images taken from Starcity Games. Please buy your singles there!)

Latest Update: March, 04. 2010

What's The Cure?

The Cure is an aggro/combo deck that makes uses of several entwined combos to bring gigantic monsters to the table really fast and win long before the opponent has time to stabilize. The most important of these cards being Kavu Predator, False Cure and Berserk. Any of these cards alone are strong enough to spell doom for the opponent, but any two of those will likely give you the game on the spot. The very low mana requirements of this deck plus the extreme redundancy of its combo parts allows for a blazingly fast and consistent clock (in the turn 2-4 range) that outraces most aggro, while its aggro core and unconventional structure makes it impervious to most forms of traditional combo hate.

The deck also features built-in protection against lifegain, enchantments, land destruction and some removal spells like edicts or snuff out. False Cure is specially cruel against Tendrils, turning the win condition against its caster. The creatures also have protection from Burn because of all the free pump spells and abilities the deck packs, which make them near unkillable by red decks. Because the deck has so many ways to go off, it also has partial built-in protection against silver bullets like cabal therapy, extirpate, chalice of the void, and meddling mage.

The Cure (Legacy G/b)
Author: Carlos Hoyos (DrJones)
Version: 1.4

Lands (13)
4 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

Creatures (24)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Wild Mongrel
3 Dark Confidant
4 Kavu Predator
4 Skyshroud Cutter
3 Quirion Ranger
2 Tarmogoyf

Spells (23)
4 Lotus Petal

4 False Cure
3 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Reverent Silence
4 Chalice of the Void

Sideboard (15)
4 Compost
3 Tempting Wurm
3 Thoughtseize
3 Krosan Grip
2 Choke

Previous Version:

Lands (13)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
1 [TSP] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath

Creatures (24)
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide

4 [PLC] Kavu Predator
4 [OD] Wild Mongrel
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [ARB] Putrid Leech

4 [NE] Skyshroud Cutter
3 [VI] Quirion Ranger

Spells (24)
4 [TE] Lotus Petal

4 [ON] False Cure
4 [U] Berserk
4 [MM] Invigorate
3 [NE] Reverent Silence
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [TSP] Might of Old Krosa

Sideboard
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [UD] Compost
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [SHM] Gleeful Sabotage
SB: 3 [TE] Choke

[U]FAQ


I) Why would I want to play this deck?

If you like big creatures, this deck has the biggest ones. Stupidly big at that, really. The damage dealt is enough to kill two or even three players, so even if they block your creatures by, let's say, Progenitus or two Dreadnaughts, you still have enough punch to kill the opponent. On turn THREE. Another reason is if you enjoy playing combo but you don't like losing against daze/force of will/chalice/leyline; the deck is not as fast as pure combo decks, but is not as easy to hate either, plus the opponent will likely have the wrong sideboard to begin with! The deck packs its OWN combo hate, too.
You also might want to play this deck if you liked Berserk Stompy, because both decks are pretty simmilar.

II) How fast/reliable is this deck?

Very fast, out of 500 goldfishes, and assuming that you play your deck optimally (which might require practice) here are the statistics:

Going first:
Average Winning Turn: 3.6.
% 2nd turn kills: 7.5%
% 3rd turn kills: 32.5%
% 4th turn kills: 55%
% 5th or worse: 5%
Mulligans required: 0 (70%) 1 (20%) or 2 (10%)

Going second:
Average Winning Turn: 3.045
% 2nd turn kills: 18.5%
% 3rd turn kills: 60%
% 4th turn kills: 20%
% 5th or worse: 1.5%
Mulligans required: 0 (80%) 1 (15%) or 2 (5%)

Going second makes the deck noticeably more stable and faster. It also enables some 2nd turn kills that can't be done when going first. Note, however, that sometimes it gives the opponent one turn more to live because he starts. It also means you have one extra threat and he has one card less for defense. I have the feeling that this deck is stronger when going second, which is weird for an aggro deck. Testing about this remains unconclusive.

III) Does this deck lose to Force of Will/Duress/Swords to Plowshares?


The short answer is no, but a combination of those cards can slow the deck just enough for the opponent to have time to cast spells that really can give this deck a problem. Merfolks, for example, run Force, but many testers consider this deck a bye because it has to face too many creatures that get too big too soon, and swords alone is insufficient to stop the swarm. Heavy discard decks can be a problem pre-board, but after siding in the Chalices and Compost they become easy.

Note that unlike other combo decks, every single copy of the trio can do a considerable amount of damage if unanswered, so you can't simply ignore one card and try to stop the others. Also, the life gaining effects are uncounterable and can affect several cards at once. For example, having two kavus on play: in this situation, even if the opponent casts swords on one after playing invigorate, that doesn't make it a true 2-for-1 because the other Kavu also gets bigger.

IV) Questions related with specific card choices:

Why Dark Confidant? Dark Confidant might look like an awkward deck choice at first, with so many 3cc and 4cc spells. However, there are three very important reasons to play him. The first one is because drawing cards is good. No, seriously, look back at the statistics and see the enormous difference that a single extra card makes in this deck. The second reason is because this deck is so fast that if he sticks around the game will end really soon, so at most you will take about 8 damage in very unlucky situations, which is equal to nothing because trying to race this deck is suicidal. The third reason is that Dark Confidant is a beater, and the more you can have the better. Many testers play up to 4, while slower builds should explore other options or add Sensei's Divining Top to their lists.

Why Mongrel? Mongrel seems another awkward choice because there aren't any other cards in the deck that can abuse it. There are many reasons to play him, though. The main one is that he can grow very big very soon, making him perfect for Berserk. Some 2nd turn kills can only be made thanks to Mongrel. Another reason is that he gives another use to cards that otherwise would sit dead in your hand like extra lands, unplayable cards due to chalice or trinisphere, cards you don't need in that matchup, etc. As a plus, he avoids some semi-popular hate usually aimed at Tarmogoyf, such as Hibernation, Perish, Mind Harness or Snuff Out. He can also take a Tarmogoyf in combat if really needed, but where he really shines is against counterbalance/trinisphere decks that make most of your hand useless. It has some sinergy with Tarmogoyf and Quirion Ranger.

Why no/so few Tarmogoyfs? In earlier versions I didn't play any copies of Tarmogoyf. My reasoning was that he is not very good in the early game as he takes a bit of time before growing up, which in turn makes him a bad target for Berserk if you want to kill fast. Besides that, Tarmogoyf cannot race an early opposing Tarmogoyf, something Wild Mongrel and Putrid Leech have no problem doing. While all of the above is true, the most up to date decklist includes two copies of Tarmogoyf to fix a vulnerability in the mid-late game, as I discovered that Mongrel, Putrid and Kavu were pretty bad topdecks if you have no cards in hand and are low at life.

Your manabase seems fragile and risky! Feel free to change it to your tastes, but keep the number in the 12-14 range as long as you play Quirion Ranger.

V) What's the most damage you did in one turn?

Even though this deck commonly deals +30 combat damage, the most damage I managed to do was 70 trampling damage on my second turn against a goblin player that told me to gently <censored> before disconnecting.

If you mean "most damage in turn one", that would be 16 damage (leaving in play 2 skyshroud cutter to finish the job the next turn).


VI) How do I know if I'm playing this deck correctly?

Suboptimal plays make you slower, which affects your perception about several cards in the deck. You'll notice you are playing the deck right when Dark Confidant becomes amazing and Tarmogoyf becomes horrible.

VII) Can you post a 'budget' version?

Ok. For a semi-budget version, you just need to buy 2 berserks (the ones From the Vault: Exiled are relatively cheap) and play up to 2 Rite of consumption. Play duress or cabal therapy instead of Thoughtseize. You can also replace 3 fetchlands with 2 land grant and a swamp. Chalice of the Void can be replaced by 2-3 Vines of Vastwood, and you can add Might of old krosa to make the deck speedier.
A true budget deck with no Berserk might want to use 4 land grants and 3 ankh of mishra; it also might need to splash white for swords and qasali pridemage, and require at least 2 revised bayou. Murmuring Bosk is an option but can't replace them. Note that a slower builds will have to devote slots to answer cards that the faster build can mostly ignore, such as Sower of temptation.

----------------------------------------------

Strategy review

The Cure follows the Blitzkrieg strategy with focus in Speed. The goal lies in building a lot of pressure very early so that the opponent has to spend his or her turns in defense mode instead of developing his game. Usually, this means that your first threat will get destroyed or countered (otherwise, the game will end really soon), but the deck packs so many that you are almost guaranteed to get one in play sooner than later. Because most of the threats cost 2, the deck can play Chalice of the Void set at one to greatly undermine the opponent's ability to respond, while barely affecting you. A first turn CotV is devastating against decks that rely on Ponder/Brainstorm/Sensei's Divining Top to find the lands they need. The inclusion of 8 mana accelerators lets you to "virtually skip" your first turn and begin the game directly in your second.
While speed is a major component of this deck's strategy, you don't have to hurry if you feel the opponent has a trick in his sleeve. The safe play would be starting with Confidant, aiming for a 3-4 turn kill, as is the most likely card to resolve. Another option is to drop mongrel or leech so that they "clear" the path for your Kavu Predator. However, Kavu Predator followed with a gain life card is by far the strongest early play and might be worth the risk. If you can wait a turn before playing the life gaining cards you might be rewarded with a topdecked kavu or false cure, so don't be impatient.
If you have a Quirion, try to keep the number of lands in play low, so that you can feed mongrels if needed and your opponent has to guess if you are mana-screwed or not. Don't force this rule if you have a kill in hand that requires 3 mana. Try to attack with Quirion and Dark Confidant as much as you can, the opponent probably will not risk to lose blockers to pump spells and trades favour you.
Learn to read your opponent's mind: look for clues in their behavior that reveal if they hold a force or swords and act accordingly. With little practice, it's very easy to cast berserk without getting 3-for-1. Don't worry about making sacrifices: your low land count means that you'll keep drawing stuff while they draw lands, and you pack more threats than they pack answers. Just keep the pressure!

Tips and Tricks to play the deck, and some 2nd turn kills (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=143381&postcount=34).

Card by card explanation:

Fetchlands: The deck needs :g: first turn to cast Kavu, and :b::b: second turn for False Cure, and lands have to be forest, so you need ways to find Bayou. Also, they thin your deck of lands to keep drawing the good stuff. Don't activate them if you don't need them because it protects you from Wasteland.
Lotus Petal/Spirit Guide: Needed for first turn mongrel/kavu, to cast Berserks and Mights of Old Krosa, avoid daze, pay for trinisphere, and attack if needed.
Chalice of the Void: Set at 0 slows down combo and lock decks, and set at 1 shuts down most removal and a lot of utility cards your opponents might be playing (specially control and combo decks). While the last one configuration also shuts down Berserk, you usually won't need it if you get one of these in play (in the other cases, just play Berserk first).
False Cure: Turns your cards into burn. Combo wins. Double Cure does thrice the damage. Allows to win through circles of protection and glacial chasm among other things. Foil against Tendrils and life-gaining effects. Also can be played as pseudo-discard against blue decks, as they will be forced to counter it or risk losing on the spot.
Kavu Predator/Mongrel: The Cure's main beaters. Play at least 11 big beaters.
Quirion Ranger: Generates mana by replaying the lands you return to your hand. Protects from LD (wasteland,armageddon) and tap effects(stasis,fire/ice), untaps your beaters to stop tarmogoyfs, target for early pump spells, and feeds lands to mongrel.
Dark Confidant: Beater and draw engine. The opponent will likely not block it because it makes you lose a lot of life in the long run, so turn him sideways a lot!
Reverent Silence: Works against counterbalance, moats, humillity, treads of disloyalty, propaganda solitary confinement, survival, and some more. The deck only needs 3 to work, just in case you need to make space for some card in your sideboard.
Skyshroud Cutter: Eats diabolic edicts and innocent blood, avoids counterbalance. In some rare cases you will want to play him first turn for double berserk kills. In two-head giant has thrice the effect.
Tempting Wurm: Cheap monster that works at its best against decks that empty their hand soon (affinity) or play few permanents (Canadian Threshold, Ad Nauseam Tendrils, Burn). Good in topdeck mode when hands are empty, and the second one you cast is drawback-free.

Other cards to consider:

Land Grant: Worse than fetchlands against counters, trinisphere and discard, but better against stifle, root maze and moon effects. Pumps Goyf, and better than fetchlands if you play Ankh of Mishra.
Rite of Consumption: Cheap black berserk replacement that WotC seem to have designed specifically for this deck, as seen in the subtle drawback they included. Testing says that you don't want to play more than two.
Ankh of Mishra: I heard fetchlands aren't so hot when they cost 5 life. Second replacement for berserk in ultra-cheap builds because a single one played soon can do a whole lot of damage. Worth playing against landstill, zoo, loam decks, and in some cases against ANT, because 5-7 damage so early in the game can cause Ad Nauseam to fizzle.
Wasteland: As long as you don't take out quirions nor lands. Some testers use this instead of discard or pump. I took them out only because sometimes they are useless and I can't afford that.
Nostalgic Dreams: Good as a two-of in decks that can't run Dark Confidant.
Swords to Plowshares: The main reason to splash white in this deck, but creatures shouldn't be a concern for you if you are playing this right.
Maelstrom Pulse: Instead of Thoughtseize/Duress/Gleeful Sabotage.
Hidden Gibbons: Pumps goyf, good 1st turn drop, reverent silence doesn't destroy it. Can replace discard or leeches.
Null Rod: Shut downs equipment, moxes, LED, charbelcher, scepters, vials, sensei's divining tops, and other dangerous cards.
Putrid Leech: Strong in the early game, can be used if you get short of beaters or don't want to play Mongrel.
Vines of Vastwood/Might of Old Krosa: Playing at least 2 copies of any of these will accelerate up to 0.7 turns.

Cards better to avoid: Concordant Crossroads, Root Maze, Vexing Shusher, Carpet of Flowers, Regrowth, Forgotten Lore, Birds of Paradise, Chrome Mox, Rain of Gore.

Matchups and Sideboard planning:

Be cautious when making changes to the current decklist, because if it works at all is due to Black Magic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_magic_(programming)), and seemingly innocuous changes can devastate its perfomance (something I discovered the hard way). I'm assuming both opponent's deck and mine are standard builds, because otherwise results may vary.

Also, siding cards in is an NP Problem because there's no actual room to make changes. Here's a quick list of cards that you shouldn't take ever from the main deck:


Lands: Even though just one land doesn't slow the deck too much, it doubles the mulliganing required.
Quirion Ranger: Not even one, doubles mulligans and the deck will be slowed by half a turn.
ESG/Lotus: I took just one out, then got 20 straight games without them in the opening hand, slowing the deck by a full turn. Has to be something with the MWS shuffler, so beware!
more than two beaters: If you take too many, you can end without targets for berserk (actually you need one more, but there's no room)
any life-gaining card: Slows the deck a lot because you don't reach critical mass.


Empirical results show that 61 cards work as good or even better than 60. My explanation is that reducing the chances of drawing any set (life gain, combo piece, land, beater, pump) by 1/61 is much better than lessening the chances of drawing one specific part by 1/8 or 1/12. 62 cards was not as succesful in playtesting, though. Some suggestions for a 61th card decklist include: 4th Berserk, 4th Dark Confidant, 2 Sensei's Divining Top (taking out one chalice or reverent silence), 2 Vines/Might of Old Krosa (taking out 1 chalice of the void).

Specific matchups and sideboard explanations (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=141376&postcount=24)

Enjoy!

Succesful Decklists:
1. Stompy False Cure by Thomas (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29505) (3rd Place 18 Oct 2009)

Nightmare
06-22-2007, 11:22 AM
What happens if your opponent plays Force of Will?

DrJones
06-22-2007, 12:01 PM
If a Kavu Predator does pass through, there's no Force of Will that can save you. Countering Kavu Predator/Wild Mongrel is good only if the opponent doesn't have another in his/her hand. Countering a Berserk on a Mongrel can save your life because it eats the hand. Force of Will to False Cure slows the deck one turn.

Countering the life-gaining spells is useless, and it's only attempted by those that don't know the deck and let False Cure to resolve.

Pale Moon FTW
06-22-2007, 12:05 PM
StP on berserked Kavu Predator, GG (cause you use False Cure).
This deck seems fragile to say the least.
The spells that gives the opponent life might be uncounterable but the spells that wins you the game (false cure and kavu predator) can just be countered and then you can do nothing about it as you have no alternative win plan, no protection and no tutors.

DrJones
06-22-2007, 12:26 PM
StP? Do you mean Swords to Plowshares? Please don't use shortcuts when writing.

Swords to Plowshares is a good way to defend yourself from some of the kills. In fact, the deck can also pack Swords to Plowshares itself. I don't do it, because the meta doesn't require it, but it's good against the mirror. However, Swords to Plowshares doesn't offer entire protection.

For example:
False Cure + False Cure + Reverent Silence = 18 life loss for you. GG.

Red splashes for fling avoids Swords to Plowshares, Sylvan Safekeeper also says GG to swords. The decklist posted don't have them because, honestly, I haven't find swords scary enough to include them yet.

Saying that this deck is fragile is blind talking. The very reason this deck runs no tutors it's because it's very consistent. Discard hurts it a lot, but the compost post-board gives you the advantage.

The spells that win me the game can be countered, but I run 16, so good luck countering all of them. And it doesn't run tutors because it has so many alternatives to win the game that it doesn't need them. At worst, you have a Mr. Stompy with Mongrels and Mights of Old Krosa (can be changed by Rancor if you want a slower pace, but higher resiliency)

The deck is beatable, but please don't pre-judge it without having tested it. :-)

Pale Moon FTW
06-22-2007, 12:38 PM
You seem to have misunderstood what I meant. I was talking about your opponent casting Swords to Plowshares on your Kavu when you're attacking. Because not only does it set you back, my major concern is that if you've cast a False Cure, since it also affects you, the lifeloss from Swords will leave you very short on life.

DrJones
06-22-2007, 01:05 PM
No, I have perfectly understood you. Of course, Swords to Plowshares can damage you a lot if you have played False Cure and have a Predator. Ouch.

The deck started with Sylvan Safekeeper and Fling for that reason.

But after testing real matches, I discovered that the scenario didn't came up often, and at worst you are throwing an "Ordago" (a term from a Spanish card game that means that you decide the result of the entire game to a single play, and hope the opponent doesn't have a better hand). So I took them out.

The problem with Force of Will and Swords to Plowshares, is that against this deck you cannot afford to mulliganing onto them as much as you could do against another kind of combo. Good news is that this deck can't afford to mulliganing too much or losses stream. When it had 9 lands, I had to play some times with no lands, hoping to draw one on the next 2 turns (it's still very dangerous even with that kind of starting hands, don't worry)

Edit: I'm going to test Xantid Swarm in the deck to see how they perform against control. Maybe they'll work better than Night's Whispers.

Cane818
06-22-2007, 04:53 PM
I think your deck relies to much on getting the combo to work. I mean you do not have to win the turn you drop the life gain. You could cast kavu with any of the life gain and you have a large creature that has trample turn one or two. Than why not run a slightly larger creature base to finish them off. Anywyas if your worried about counters leyline of lifeforce is a very good choice.

Wish I would have seen this post last night. Well thats all I have to say.

DrJones
06-22-2007, 05:57 PM
I think your deck relies to much on getting the combo to work. I mean you do not have to win the turn you drop the life gain. You could cast kavu with any of the life gain and you have a large creature that has trample turn one or two. Than why not run a slightly larger creature base to finish them off. Anywyas if your worried about counters leyline of lifeforce is a very good choice.

Wish I would have seen this post last night. Well thats all I have to say.You're right, my friend. This deck doesn't need to kill so fast and in a single turn, it's only that it can. It's fast against decks that need fast answers, but you can kill slowly against decks with permission.

Leyline of Lifeforce isn't a good choice in this deck for many reasons.
1. The deck has a hard time reaching 4 mana.
2. The deck cannot afford to mulligan very often.
3. Reverent silence destroys the leyline.
4. It moves away the focus of the counterspells to other critical spells like land grant.

With the first decklist you'll have a bit of trouble against Threshold. However, with Xantid Swarm instead of Night's whisper it becomes a lot easier, without losing deck resiliency (Night's whisper was there to recover against counterspells, anyways).

Thank you for your comments. :wink:

KillemallCFH
06-22-2007, 06:14 PM
Why exactly are you running Land Grant? It gives your opponent information and makes your land drops counterable all for what? Minor deck thinning? It is not like Belcher where you actually gain something for running less lands. Unless I'm missing some hidden synergy, I really think the Land Grants should just be fetches/basics (of which you have none right now).

DrJones
06-22-2007, 07:10 PM
You are right. Right now, land grant only serves as minor deck thinning.
The present decklist runs four because I'm constantly testing different things that have sinergy with Land Grant, of which there are currently none on that decklist for lack of space:

1.- A single martyr of spores to catch with summoner's pact on the rare cases where a pump spell will win you the game.
2.- A single forest to get past blood moon (Your free spells only work if you have a forest in play). Fetchlands don't work here, but I'm testing if hardcasting Reverent Silence can work.
3.- Bounty of the Hunt. Currently replaced by night's whispers or Xantid swarm.

If your deck doesn't play any of these, you can reduce the number of land grants.

Edit: I'm the only one that has constant crashes with MWS? People will start wondering why I'm quitting when in a losing position.

Cane818
06-22-2007, 09:17 PM
leyline of the void is a good side board card not main deck.
I tried running a few of the wild mongrols they are a good chioce.
I get around the counters in my deck by playing duress and black mail.
And u get to cast leyline for free so who cares about mana cost.
and when u play reverent silence you should already have a
creature ready to kill.

Rood
06-22-2007, 10:45 PM
I played against a deck like this once it was fairly beast. If there were any cards I would suggest to the List it would be maybe something to stabilize and end game/control...Cursed Scroll?

Cane818
06-23-2007, 12:01 AM
Truthfully I have been running this deck for a while non stop. I just don't think it can get to be a teir 1 deck. I mean yes it can pill some amazing wins that happen fairly often, but i always end up getting horrible hands full of the the life cards and no kill card. I think the "combo" just takes up to many card slots.

DrJones
06-23-2007, 04:17 AM
@Cane818:
Leyline of the Void is a good sideboard card. I thought you meant Leyline of Lifeforce, which isn't very good in this deck.
About it cannot being a tier 1 deck, which decklist are you playing? I could try to help you against some matches.

@Roodmistah:
I've testing Xantid Swarm and it works quite a bit against control. The real problem for this decklist are Scepterchant decks because all the artifact hate is in the sideboard. Cursed Scroll won't be of help in that scenario, but cards like Stormbind might work. All you need to do for a red splash is to change 2 fetchlands for 1 Taiga and 1 Badlands.
All I've tried at the moment are price of progress and Ankh of Mishra. Tell me if you get better luck with your changes.

outsideangel
06-23-2007, 04:47 AM
Quirion Ranger and Summoner's Pact both seem rather sub-par. I suppose Ranger might be needed since you are cripplingly vulnerable to Wasteland (though running 1x Forest would probably help with that a good deal) and Pact is terribly situational.

Cane818
06-23-2007, 08:00 AM
Well this is my deck list and it runs very well.

Lands
4 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire

Creatures
4 Kavu Predator
4 Skyshroud Cutter
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Wild Mongrel

Spells
4 Reverent Silence
4 Invigorate
4 False Cure
4 Land Grant
4 Blackmail
4 Duress
4 Berserk
4 Lotus Petal

Sideboard
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Crumble
3 Putrefy
2 Root Maze
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Leyline of Lifeforce

If you have any question ask.

DrJones
06-23-2007, 08:33 AM
Don't you get mana screwed with no Elvish Spirit Guide and no Quirion Ranger? I run 10 lands and 4 land grants (I'm testing 12 lands and 2 land grants now) because Quirion Ranger allowed me to reduce the number.

I remember my deck became a lot better after I included them.

Another thing I see is that Berserk is not so hot without another pump spell other than the invigorates. I've tried many times to cut the Might of Old Krosa, but they always return to my deck.

I don't like the Blackmails. I suggest you to try another card in its place. If your deck is not as suicide as mine, artifacts and equipment start being dangerous enough to warrant having something against them maindecked.

Rood
06-23-2007, 04:00 PM
Well this is my deck list and it runs very well.

Lands
4 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire

Creatures
4 Kavu Predator
4 Skyshroud Cutter
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Wild Mongrel

Spells
4 Reverent Silence
4 Invigorate
4 False Cure
4 Land Grant
4 Blackmail
4 Duress
4 Berserk
4 Lotus Petal

Sideboard
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Crumble
3 Putrefy
2 Root Maze
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Leyline of Lifeforce

If you have any question ask.


Umezawa's Jitte perhaps? You could cut the Root Mazes and something else I feel as though this would strengthen most of your matchups.

Cane818
06-23-2007, 05:46 PM
i might try the jitte in sideboard over root maze, but the jitte is a little slow i need to use 1 turn to drop it one turn to play a creature and one turn to equip so i don't think it would be the best option. I hardly ever get mana screwed. I don't like blackmail myself I think I will try cabal therapy I can sac the cutters or dark confident, funeral charm might also help this deck it gives me a pump spell and a discard ability, ohh and swampwalk. Elvish spirt guide sounds interesting but i don't think ill play quirion ranger, I have not had much trouble with wasteland.

Also against blue counter decks leyline of lifeforce wins me games I don't know how you cant play it its a free drop in hand. Than you don't have to worry about casting kavu and its practically a win.

edit: i could run the spirit guides over root maze to speed up my deck against combo and such.

So i changed it to


Lands
4 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire

Creatures
4 Kavu Predator
4 Skyshroud Cutter
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Wild Mongrel

Spells
4 Reverent Silence
4 Invigorate
4 False Cure
4 Land Grant
4 Duress
4 Berserk
4 Lotus Petal
4 Funeral Charm

Sideboard
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Crumble
3 Putrefy
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Leyline of Lifeforce
2 Elvish Spirit Guide

DrJones
06-24-2007, 05:42 AM
Quirion Ranger is not there just for the wasteland (though it's very good against it). It's there because it's "mana acceleration" when you miss a land drop, and against aggro, it untaps your mongrels/kavu/tarmogoyfs to stop them from racing.

Edit: Quirion ranger also pumps mongrel, and allows you not to play lands from your hand if you don't have to (saving them from mongrel, protecting them from armageddon, and also good for bluffing)

I cannot run Leyline of Lifeforce in my sideboard because I cannot afford to mulligan until I draw it unlike you, that have confidant. I run Xantid Swarm maindeck against control, which seem to work. At worst, they attract counters and swords (so it's basically a duress that can be pumped).
But assuming I could run it, I should cut cards from my sideboard. Which ones to cut?

Cane818
06-24-2007, 11:07 PM
You know what why not explain what the cards in your sideboard are good for what match ups do you side them in against. Right now I do not know why you play half of the cards in your sideboard

DrJones
06-25-2007, 06:02 AM
You know what why not explain what the cards in your sideboard are good for what match ups do you side them in against. Right now I do not know why you play half of the cards in your sideboardYou're right about that. I'll try to write them later. Right now I'm a bit busy. :wink:

DrJones
06-26-2007, 01:03 PM
Specific Matchup Analysis and Sideboard suggestions

Really easy matchups:
Enchantress, Goblins, Merfolks, Burn, Armageddon Stax, Solidarity, Aggro Loam, elves, Pox

All these decks have a much slower clock than you, pack the wrong kind of disruption, if at all, and their creatures are too weak against you. In some cases, cards that you already run maindeck totally crush their strategy. The best strategy against those decks is to start fast with Kavu and cutters or Mongrel, then play as offensively as you can and just let your deck flow. No sideboard required, but I post the choices anyways:


Burn, elves, Solidarity: -3 thoughtseize +3 chalice of the void
Enchantress, Stax: -2 might of old krosa +2 gleeful sabotage
Pox: -3 thoughtseize -1 False cure +4 compost
Aggro Loam: Nothing. If you really worry about this matchup, put Ankh of Mishra on the sideboard. Otherwise same as Goblins.
Merfolks: -2 putrid leech -1 false cure +3 Choke
Goblins: Also Nothing. If forced to, do -3 thoughtseize +3 Pithing Needle


Not as easy matchups:

(to be filled up later)

Hard matchups:

Canadian Thresh
Canadian Thresh is "hard" in the sense that it packs the correct disruption against this deck both main and in the sideboard. However, such cards are almost always 1-1 trades and those benefit you, and your sideboard is definitely stronger (if it resolves). Because both decks spend the early game countering each other, games tend to drag enough for Tarmogoyf to become better than leech. If you expect a lot of Canadian Thresh you have to consider running Relic of Progenitus or Tarmogoyfs yourself. Anyways, the decks are more or less 50/50 the first round. The cards you should worry about are tarmogoyf, spell snare, daze, and submerge. If you have to, use Berserk as removal against goyf or on one of your blockers.

Duress/Thoughtseize are poor cards maindeck because you lose life and/or the initiative, and there are too many useful/redundant spells in their hand to make a difference. I'm still not sure about what other cards to take out, but you definitely don't want to side out the mights of old krosa. Chalice at 1 and Chokes are really devastating against thresh, and because you don't run artifacts nor enchantments maindeck, the opponent probably won't have any card to remove them if they land. Just extend your hand to him and ask if there's need to keep playing.

-3 thoughtseize -1 windswepth heath? -2 putrid leech? +3 chalice of the void (set to 1) +3 choke.
if you play Tarmogoys instead of leech, that would be -1 mongrel -1 false cure (spell snare target)

Card by Card Explanation:
Compost - Essential against discard and dredge, as the only thing this deck needs to win is drawing cards. Playing one first turn against Ichorid this is basically an autowin.
Chalice of the Void - Keeps combo in check, protects against discard, swords to plowshares and spell snare, and makes a lot of cards in the opponent's deck worthless, specially against burn, zoo and threshold decks. Set at 1 makes your berserks uncastable, but keep them in hand just in case the opponent destroys the chalice and wins teh prize.
Pithing Needle - Keeps other kind of combo in check, and useful when nothing else qualifies. Stops wasteland, survival, kiki jiki, dread return and other ugly cards.
Gleeful Sabotage - Cheaper than Krosan Grip, it also has the potential of getting 2-for-1. Blue decks like Dreadstill have to counter it twice, and the Conspire copy evades Chalice of the Void or Counterbalance. All in all very useful.
Choke - Back to Basics against blue and thresh opponents. The tempo swing is usually too high for them to recover and thus lose soon thereafter.

Cane818
06-27-2007, 12:00 AM
I believe null rod isn't need in this deck. Your deck is fast enough to not worry about artifacts that you listed, just make it 4 crumbles which is a great card for this deck.

I love what your doing with Tarmogoyf and Xantid Swarm. I tried Xantid storm and they worked well in my deck I just have them in my SB instead of main deck.

I personally do not see the point to chalice in this deck. The only ting you can really set it to is 1 or 2, and you never want to set it to 2. I guess i just never worry about castign cost 1 spells. I know it stops the most hated swords to plow, but just never make your kavu have more power than you have life when you play fulse cure. Problem solved. Also I do not have problems with thresh decks I just side leyline of the void, and thresh still is not much of a problem.

About compost. I know discard hurts this kill combo. My version is a little more resilient to discard than yours. But i still up my odds aginst all black decks by adding 3 more combo pieces. Refreshing rain great card burn and life gain lol.

Iam still testing so stuff out. But have you tried Funeral Charm over might of old krosa it comes in handy.

Iam going to try adding the one forest to the deck I think it will help a bit.

Also Maze of ith sucks for this deck.

DrJones
06-27-2007, 07:17 AM
I tested Refreshing Rain, but black runs both discard and cheap creature removal, which leave me without the cards with which Refreshing Rain comboes. Compost is a threat by itself, and a very strong one. It also draws you a lot of cards, so you find your combo pieces sooner.

Chalice of the Void is there against superfast combo decks that kill you turns 1-2. A Chalice for 0 or 1 is required to slow them down. It happens that a chalice set up to 1 is also good against threshold. I've yet to test them against goblins and counterslivers.

Null rod is working so good in testing, that I plan to include more. I discovered that it stops mana abilities from moxes and artifact lands, and time vault combos. It cannot be replaced by Crumble, because it doesn't stop charbelcher. I'm so happy with it, I'm considering promoting it to maindeck.

I've tested Funeral Charm, but it doesn't work as good as might of old krosa/rancor. Maybe if I had more discard, or the meta had more 1/1 creatures that had to be killed...

Fortunately, I don't find Maze of Ith very scary. If it's so good against your build, you could test adding "1xTaiga 1xbadlands" to the manabase that allows you to run 2 or 3 Fling (red berserks 5-6). In my goldfishes, that mana base lost me/slowed me 2% of the games, but you seem to run more lands and more draw, so you might want to give it a try.

Cane818
06-27-2007, 03:46 PM
I am trying out the compost. I am running two rain and two compost. In side board. My discard helps some aginst black so I don't mind black discard as much. I know fling might hurt. But I played a land deck where I lost 2 won 1. He drew maze of ith in both starting hands. It just made me a sad panda.

Iam also trying 2 elvish spirit guides. They are okay the first turn crumble is nice. Though I all ways seem to need black mana not green when I draw it.

I tried running the 1 forest it seemed to work ok, i still dotn have to much trooble with wasteland i seem to get around it.

Cane818
06-28-2007, 04:22 AM
I decided to run a forest in the sideboard over main deck.
Its worked really well. I cut the side down to 2 Deeds.

DrJones
07-03-2007, 05:45 PM
I've been playing this deck these weeks on MWS non-stop, and it's amazing.

Latest changes:
Swapped Tarmogoyf and Xantid Swarm. Tarmogoyf raises the number of green beaters from 8 to 11, and they are also good against control. Xantid swarm is still amazing, but with tarmogoyf the deck can pass better through removal and counters.
When needed, Xantid swarm replaces 1 Land Grant and 2 Summoner's Pact (too risky if the opponent runs counters).

Changes to the Sideboard:
3 Compost (they were 4)
3 Null rod (they were 2)

I think this decklist, as it stands now, is optimal and competitive enough to be moved to the Open Forum. Do I need to add anything else to the thread before the move?

Cane818
07-03-2007, 09:51 PM
How about how it dose against different top tier decks.


I can't think of any additions or changes to the "base" deck.
Everyones meta is different.

I have had great success with this deck as well.
good luck.

strom
07-04-2007, 01:09 AM
Nice deck. Swapping Tarmogoyf and Swarm is definitely the correct decision.

However I think there is one card that should certainly be added: Grove of the Burnwillows!

Cane818
07-04-2007, 04:49 AM
grove of the burn willows isnt very good I do not need red mana and its not a forest.

DrJones
07-05-2007, 08:10 AM
This is the decklist Xavi Fugaroles took 2nd place at the "4 Sea Drakes at Pendrell Vale" tournament. Future Sight wasn't legal then (decklist taken from Germagic.de):

5 Forest
4 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Swamp

4 Skyshroud Elite
3 Mire Boa
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Skyshroud Cutter
4 Kavu Predator
4 Dark Confidant

2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Invigorate
2 False Cure
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Putrefy
4 Duress

Sideboard:
2 Xantid Swarm
4 Extirpate
2 Sudden Spoiling
3 Krosan Grip
4 Engineered Plague

DrJones
07-05-2007, 08:52 AM
I've tested changing Might of Old Krosa for Rancors, but even though it makes the deck more consistent against goblins (Mongrel and Goyf can no longer be chump blocked), it slows too much its clock against other matchups.

In the sideboard, I'm testing -3 crumble, and put instead +1 Compost and +2 Seeds of Innocence. Seeds of Innocence seems better against Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void, but I don't know how well will they do against Scepter and Charbelcher.

Some tricks about how to play the deck:

1. Don't play a land if you don't have to. If you have Quirion Ranger, it's better to tap the land, return it to your hand, and play it again. The deck doesn't need more than 2 mana most of time. Let the opponent guess wheter you are manascrewed, or you are just keeping lands in your hand for Mongrel.

2. The above play is only worse when you really need 3 mana next turn (False Cure + Berserk). So play one turn in advance.

3. Going second is as good, if not better, than going first. The exception being against discard decks and combo decks that go off sooner than you.

4. First turn Kavu Predator has to be followed with a Skyshroud Cutter if the opponent plays black to avoid Pox/Innocent Blood/Diabolic Edict. 1st turn Reverent Silence is good too if the opponent runs red. Against blue/white it's better to wait before playing those cards.

5. First turn Mongrel is good against red, green and white. It's worse against Goblins.

6. First turn Quirion Ranger is good against goblins, prison and zoo decks alike. It stabilizes the deck for a turn 3-4 kill.

7. The trick "Tap mana --> Quirion ranger returning a land --> Discard land + rest of hand to Mongrel --> Berserk" has given me many games.

8. Summoner's Pact searchs for Skyshroud Cutter for +5 life, or for Elvish Spirit Guide to pay for Berserk/Crumble/Might of Old Krosa. If you really need an extra black mana to cast False Cure and win, you can do it this way: Summoner's Pact for Spirit Guide --> Remove Spirit Guide to Cast Quirion Ranger --> Tap land/Return land/play it again.

9. The life gaining part is a cost. It cannot be countered except by stifle. It doesn't target, either. Can be used through a Nether Void to pump Predators.

10. Unless you have a weak hand or playing against combo/lock, try to delay playing thoughtseize or duress until your second/third turn. That way, you still get your early pressure set up, and most cards you want to target will still be in your opponent's hand. That's because they usually cost 3cc or more, are horrible plays if you control the board, or they would have been protected by the brainstorm he just spent to search for Force of Will.

11. Many decks started putting Submerge in their sideboards. Here's a trick that you can use against them. First turn play a Kavu or Quirion Ranger. If the opponent has Submerge, he will let the creature resolve, and he will also wait your attack/pump before using it. A big mistake! Next turn, cast the other half of the duo (that will likely also resolve) and then you play a cutter/reverent silence (plus Invigorates), then reply to them activating Quirion. The opponent might try to play Submerge then, but he will not be able to do so, because you don't control forests!!! There's no time window for him to reply, and he can't counter the life gain either, so he will be stuck with a giant monster he just helped create. :laugh:

Some examples of turn 2 kills of the deck:
I)
1. When going second, Land + ESG/Lotus petal to play Wild Mongrel.
2. Tap land for Might of Old Krosa + Invigorate, then land/esg/lotus petal/summoner's pact to pay for berserk, and discard the rest of your hand to mongrel in response for 24 trampling damage.

II)
1. Land + ESG/Lotus Petal --> Kavu Predator
2. Land/Lotus Petal for False Cure, play any two lifegaining spells, attack with predator.

III)
1. Land + ESG/Lotus Petal --> Mongrel/predator/Tarmogoyf
2. Invigorate + Land/lotus petal/ESG/Summoner's Pact --> 2 berserks (works with Might of Old krosa if there's another mana source)

IV)
1. Bayou/fetchland + Quirion Ranger
2. False Cure + 3 lifegaining spells. (some don't kill right now, but makes for an easy kill next turn)

V)
1. Land + ESG/Lotus Petal --> Kavu Predator
2. Invigorate + any other lifegaining spell + Berserk.

There are many more turn 2 kills, but these are the most common ones. There are more if the opponent helps by taking damage, and there are too many 3 turn kills to list here. Many 3 turn kills deal +30 trampling damage, which pass through any blockers the opponent could play second turn.

Cane818
07-06-2007, 12:02 AM
Forgot to ask whats the "final" deck look like for you.

Cane818
07-07-2007, 05:03 AM
Just a quick question did you ever try scryb ranger.

DrJones
07-07-2007, 06:26 AM
Hi. I haven't tested Scryb on this deck, but it was the card that gave me the idea of using Quirion Ranger here. Scryb Ranger is an amazing card, the problem is that it's a 2cc drop, and what the deck lacked was a good 1st turn drop (other than the Xantid). Another problems are that Scryb Ranger doesn't cut as many lands from the deck to improve the land/creature ratio, and that it makes the deck more vulnerable to Chalice of the Void and Engineered explosives (Tarmogoyf is already too much 2cc for my tastes, but is still there because it's outright better than any 3cc green beater).

I would suggest a 4x Quirion Ranger 2x Scryb Ranger configuration as long as you also run Birds of Paradise in the deck. This allows for plays like first turn birds, second turn scryb plus mongrel/goyf/kavu/false cure. Scryb doesn't clog in the hand that way and you can cut another land from the deck.

Cane818
07-08-2007, 12:53 AM
also a fun card a ran for a while was llanowar Augur.

zulander
07-08-2007, 06:30 PM
I think tarmogoyf is an auto include in any green deck that wants to win by attacking. He's too good not to be used and is almost always bigger than a mongrel without the card disadvantage.

DrJones
07-08-2007, 07:16 PM
What you mean? Tarmogoyf is there. Are you saying that you're happy it is there? Otherwise I think I'll have to update the decklist on the first post.

I've been testing Duress in the deck, along with Birds of Paradise, Scryb Rangers, and such. I've not found these cards as good as the cards they replaced (1 land grant and 2 summoner's pact), so I'm sticking to my previous decklist. I'll try to write something tomorrow, and then ask a moderator to move the thread to the Open Forum.

The Rack
07-08-2007, 07:46 PM
This thread DOES NOT belong in the open forum. It has 3 pages full of conversation between mainly 2 people.

Have you even tested against the tier 1 more than 5 times?

This looks like a cute combo that will never be competitive because giving your opponent life is not a great plan. I understand the whole concept of the deck, but any creature removal, discard, counter or anything else competitive decks play, will beat this deck.

Someone had to say it.

thefreakaccident
07-09-2007, 02:26 AM
yeah, sad but true... the deck looks like it would roll over and die to swords + counterspell or swords + duress; the deck does look fun to play, honest; but fun decks aren't always competative.

just my 2 cents on the matter (to coin a phrase).

Cane818
07-09-2007, 03:22 AM
Well my deck dose not have much problem with swords to plow, duress, or
counters. It wins games. This deck just comes down to timing. You need to
know when to just run it as a agro deck and when to show your combo.

Also what match ups do you want me to test against. Give me the decks and I will do it

DrJones
07-09-2007, 05:27 AM
This looks like a cute combo that will never be competitive because giving your opponent life is not a great plan. I understand the whole concept of the deck, but any creature removal, discard, counter or anything else competitive decks play, will beat this deck.

Someone had to say it.

yeah, sad but true... the deck looks like it would roll over and die to swords + counterspell or swords + duress; the deck does look fun to play, honest; but fun decks aren't always competative.

just my 2 cents on the matter (to coin a phrase).
I was expecting somebody to show up and say that. This may look like a glass cannon that rolls over to disruption, but that's not true. In fact, it's quite the opposite, a very consistent deck. Consistent. Strong. Fast. Unfair.

I have been playing this deck a lot against tier 1 decks, and it has a lot of positive matchups. Obviously, because casual players have developed a similar deck that is fun (read: not competitive), I know I need something to convice people. I'll post later some MWS logs I saved against some tier 1/2 decks (goblins, threshold, burn, solidarity, ichorid, spanish inquisition, TES) and also decks with discard/swords/counters like Tog and fish.

Cane818
07-09-2007, 05:35 AM
sounds like fun

DrJones
07-09-2007, 05:48 AM
Game Log against Goblins (first game, concedes 2nd game due to mana screw while having 2 Aether vial in play, weird):

0:00:00 [Kakarotto] It is now turn 1 (DrJones)
0:00:00 [Kakarotto] Kakarotto rolled a 10, using a 20 sided die
0:00:02 [DrJones] DrJones rolled a 7, using a 20 sided die

(Kakarotto plays. He plays a mountain and an Aether Vial)

0:00:23 [DrJones] DrJones untaps his/her permanents
0:00:24 [DrJones] DrJones draws a card
0:00:27 [DrJones] DrJones plays Bloodstained Mire from Hand
0:00:29 [DrJones] DrJones sacrifices Bloodstained Mire
0:00:30 [DrJones] DrJones's life total is now 19 (-1)
0:00:34 [DrJones] DrJones puts Bayou into play from Library
0:00:36 [DrJones] DrJones plays Elvish Spirit Guide from Hand
0:00:38 [DrJones] DrJones puts Elvish Spirit Guide to RFG from Play
0:00:38 [DrJones] DrJones taps Bayou
0:00:40 [DrJones] DrJones plays Wild Mongrel from Hand
0:00:42 [DrJones] <DrJones> End my turn

0:00:44 [Kakarotto] It is now turn 2 (Kakarotto)
0:00:47 [Kakarotto] AEther Vial now has 1 (+1) counters.
(here he plays another mountain and a goblin piledriver)

0:00:56 [DrJones] It is now turn 3 (DrJones)
0:00:59 [DrJones] DrJones draws a card
0:01:18 [DrJones] It is now the Combat Phase, Declare Attackers Step
0:01:19 [DrJones] DrJones taps Wild Mongrel
0:01:27 [Kakarotto] Kakarotto's life total is now 18 (-2)
0:01:38 [DrJones] <DrJones> End my turn
0:01:40 [Kakarotto] It is now turn 4 (Kakarotto)
0:01:42 [Kakarotto] AEther Vial now has 2 (+1) counters.
0:01:43 [Kakarotto] Kakarotto draws a card
0:01:47 [Kakarotto] Kakarotto plays Mountain from Hand
0:01:47 [Kakarotto] Kakarotto taps Mountain
0:01:50 [Kakarotto] Kakarotto plays AEther Vial from Hand
0:01:51 [Kakarotto] Kakarotto taps Mountain
0:01:52 [Kakarotto] Kakarotto plays Mogg Fanatic from Hand
0:01:53 [Kakarotto] It is now the Combat Phase, Declare Attackers Step
0:01:56 [Kakarotto] Kakarotto taps Goblin Piledriver
0:01:58 [DrJones] DrJones's life total is now 18 (-1)
0:01:59 [Kakarotto] <Kakarotto> End my turn
0:02:01 [DrJones] It is now turn 5 (DrJones)
0:02:04 [DrJones] DrJones draws a card
0:02:07 [DrJones] It is now the Combat Phase, Declare Attackers Step
0:02:08 [DrJones] DrJones taps Wild Mongrel

(Kakarotto blocks wild mongrel with Mogg Fanatic here)

0:02:21 [Kakarotto] <Kakarotto> And sacrifice...
0:02:25 [Kakarotto] Kakarotto puts Mogg Fanatic to Graveyard from Play
0:02:29 [DrJones] <DrJones> to it?
0:02:32 [Kakarotto] <Kakarotto> Yeah.
0:02:35 [DrJones] DrJones puts Forest to Graveyard from Hand
0:02:40 [DrJones] Wild Mongrel is now 3/3
0:02:47 [DrJones] <DrJones> wait, making numbers
0:02:57 [DrJones] DrJones plays Invigorate from Hand
0:03:13 [DrJones] <DrJones> +3 life
0:03:14 [Kakarotto] Kakarotto's life total is now 14 (-4)
0:03:18 [DrJones] Wild Mongrel is now 7/7
0:03:23 [Kakarotto] Kakarotto's life total is now 17 (+3)

(I discard 4 more cards to Mongrel)

0:03:42 [DrJones] Wild Mongrel is now 11/11
0:03:44 [DrJones] DrJones taps Bayou
0:03:46 [DrJones] DrJones plays Berserk from Hand
0:03:51 [DrJones] Wild Mongrel is now 22/11
0:04:09 [Kakarotto] <Kakarotto> GG!

DrJones
07-09-2007, 06:16 AM
The previous log was too long, I'll cut more text from the next:

TES (Empty the Warrens)

0:00:03 [Fred[Ger]] Fred[Ger] rolled a 14, using a 20 sided die
0:00:04 [DrJones] DrJones rolled a 16, using a 20 sided die
0:00:11 [DrJones] <DrJones> I'll let you go first
0:00:16 [Fred[Ger]] It is now turn 2 (Fred[Ger])

(here he cycles 2 street wraith and pays 4 life. Then shows me his hand as if he already won the match)

0:00:37 [Fred[Ger]] Fred[Ger] plays Land Grant from Hand
0:00:50 [Fred[Ger]] Fred[Ger] puts Taiga into play from Library
0:00:56 [Fred[Ger]] Fred[Ger] plays Lotus Petal from Hand
0:01:02 [Fred[Ger]] Fred[Ger] taps Taiga
0:01:02 [Fred[Ger]] Fred[Ger] plays Rite of Flame from Hand
0:01:12 [Fred[Ger]] Fred[Ger] plays Wild Cantor from Hand
0:01:16 [Fred[Ger]] Fred[Ger] puts Simian Spirit Guide to RFG from Hand
0:01:17 [Fred[Ger]] Fred[Ger] puts Wild Cantor to Graveyard from Play
0:01:18 [Fred[Ger]] Fred[Ger] plays Empty the Warrens from Hand

(here he puts 10 goblin tokens into play)

0:01:32 [DrJones] It is now turn 3 (DrJones)
0:01:35 [DrJones] DrJones draws a card
0:01:44 [DrJones] DrJones plays Bayou from Hand
0:01:47 [DrJones] DrJones plays Lotus Petal from Hand
0:01:48 [DrJones] DrJones taps Bayou
0:01:50 [DrJones] DrJones sacrifices Lotus Petal
0:01:53 [DrJones] DrJones plays Kavu Predator from Hand
0:01:55 [DrJones] DrJones plays Skyshroud Cutter from Hand
0:02:01 [Fred[Ger]] Fred[Ger]'s life total is now 21 (+5)
0:02:01 [DrJones] Kavu Predator now has 5 (+5) counters.
0:02:07 [Fred[Ger]] It is now turn 4 (Fred[Ger])
0:02:10 [Fred[Ger]] Fred[Ger] draws a card

(here he assigns the 10 goblins to attack. I block/kill 2 and lose 8 life.)

0:02:29 [DrJones] It is now turn 5 (DrJones)
0:02:31 [DrJones] DrJones draws a card
0:02:42 [DrJones] DrJones plays Bayou from Hand
0:03:04 [DrJones] DrJones plays Lotus Petal from Hand
0:03:05 [DrJones] DrJones taps Bayou
0:03:06 [DrJones] DrJones taps Bayou
0:03:08 [DrJones] DrJones plays Tarmogoyf from Hand
0:03:28 [DrJones] Tarmogoyf is now 3/4
0:03:42 [DrJones] DrJones taps Kavu Predator
0:03:43 [DrJones] DrJones taps Skyshroud Cutter
0:03:46 [Fred[Ger]] Fred[Ger]'s life total is now 14 (-7)
0:03:51 [Fred[Ger]] It is now turn 6 (Fred[Ger])
0:03:54 [Fred[Ger]] Fred[Ger] draws a card
0:03:58 [Fred[Ger]] Fred[Ger] plays Lotus Petal from Hand
0:04:00 [Fred[Ger]] Fred[Ger] taps Taiga
0:04:01 [Fred[Ger]] Fred[Ger] puts Lotus Petal to Graveyard from Play
0:04:01 [Fred[Ger]] Fred[Ger] plays Burning Wish from Hand
0:04:16 [Fred[Ger]] Fred[Ger] puts Duress into play from Sideboard

(here he attacks with 8 remaining goblins. I block 1 and lose 7 life)

0:05:14 [DrJones] It is now turn 7 (DrJones)
0:05:17 [DrJones] DrJones draws a card
0:05:27 [DrJones] DrJones plays Bloodstained Mire from Hand
0:05:29 [DrJones] DrJones sacrifices Bloodstained Mire
0:05:30 [DrJones] DrJones's life total is now 4 (-1)
0:05:34 [DrJones] DrJones puts Bayou into play from Library
0:05:38 [DrJones] Tarmogoyf is now 4/5
0:05:44 [DrJones] DrJones taps Kavu Predator
0:05:44 [DrJones] DrJones taps Skyshroud Cutter
0:05:44 [DrJones] DrJones taps Tarmogoyf
0:05:45 [DrJones] DrJones taps Bayou
0:05:47 [DrJones] DrJones plays Berserk from Hand

After the game, we have the following talk:

0:06:03 [Fred[Ger]] <Fred[Ger]> g2 sb is senseless i think
0:06:15 [DrJones] <DrJones> senseless? what do you mean?
0:06:25 [Fred[Ger]] <Fred[Ger]> i was searching for tier 1 decks
0:06:31 [Fred[Ger]] <Fred[Ger]> or tier 2 maybe
0:06:49 [DrJones] <DrJones> This one works
0:06:57 [Fred[Ger]] <Fred[Ger]> it does, i dont say that it doesnt
0:07:05 [Fred[Ger]] <Fred[Ger]> but it doesnt work in any case
0:07:12 [DrJones] <DrJones> Why?
0:07:22 [Fred[Ger]] <Fred[Ger]> if i'd have finished with belcher u would have been dead years ago
0:07:33 [DrJones] <DrJones> I've a sideboard against belcher
0:07:47 [Fred[Ger]] <Fred[Ger]> another reason for not having a g2 :P
0:08:04 [DrJones] <DrJones> Ok, if you don't want to test against this one, worse for you
0:08:13 [Fred[Ger]] <Fred[Ger]> if u think so
0:08:25 [<System>] <System> Player Lost

Cane818
07-09-2007, 06:27 AM
that happens a lot.
my favorite is when they just say

wow

DrJones
07-09-2007, 06:54 AM
Faerie Stompy (this is an easy match because they kill themselves):

0:00:01 [finley] finley rolled a 7, using a 20 sided die
0:00:04 [DrJones] DrJones rolled a 1, using a 20 sided die
0:00:15 [finley] finley plays Island from Hand
0:00:20 [DrJones] It is now turn 2 (DrJones)
0:00:24 [DrJones] DrJones draws a card
0:00:26 [DrJones] DrJones plays Wooded Foothills from Hand
0:00:30 [DrJones] DrJones sacrifices Wooded Foothills
0:00:32 [DrJones] DrJones's life total is now 19 (-1)
0:00:35 [DrJones] DrJones puts Bayou into play from Library
0:00:39 [DrJones] DrJones plays Lotus Petal from Hand

(Here I cast a Kavu Predator, and he counters it with Force of Will removing a Cloud of Faeries and paying 1 life)

0:01:09 [finley] It is now turn 3 (finley)
0:01:32 [finley] finley draws a card
0:01:33 [finley] It is now the Precombat Main Phase
0:01:34 [finley] finley plays Ancient Tomb from Hand
0:01:36 [finley] finley taps Island
0:01:36 [finley] finley taps Ancient Tomb
0:01:39 [finley] finley's life total is now 17 (-2)
0:01:43 [finley] finley plays Serendib Efreet from Hand
0:02:01 [DrJones] It is now turn 4 (DrJones)
0:02:05 [DrJones] DrJones draws a card
0:02:07 [DrJones] DrJones plays Wooded Foothills from Hand
0:02:10 [DrJones] DrJones sacrifices Wooded Foothills
0:02:11 [DrJones] DrJones's life total is now 18 (-1)
0:02:15 [DrJones] DrJones puts Bayou into play from Library
0:02:17 [DrJones] DrJones taps Bayou
0:02:19 [DrJones] DrJones plays Quirion Ranger from Hand
0:02:23 [finley] It is now turn 5 (finley)
0:02:26 [finley] finley's life total is now 16 (-1)
0:02:26 [finley] finley draws a card
0:02:28 [finley] finley plays Island from Hand
0:02:34 [finley] finley taps Serendib Efreet
0:02:36 [DrJones] DrJones's life total is now 15 (-3)
0:02:40 [finley] finley taps Island
0:02:40 [finley] finley taps Ancient Tomb
0:02:40 [finley] finley taps Island
0:02:41 [finley] finley's life total is now 14 (-2)
0:02:42 [finley] finley plays Chalice of the Void from Hand
0:02:45 [finley] Chalice of the Void now has 2 (+1) counters.

(Kavu Predator countered, he has Serendib and Chalice for 2 in play... looks worrisome)

0:02:49 [DrJones] It is now turn 6 (DrJones)
0:02:52 [DrJones] DrJones draws a card
0:03:02 [DrJones] DrJones plays Bloodstained Mire from Hand
0:03:04 [DrJones] DrJones sacrifices Bloodstained Mire
0:03:06 [DrJones] DrJones's life total is now 14 (-1)
0:03:09 [DrJones] DrJones puts Bayou into play from Library
0:03:12 [DrJones] DrJones taps Bayou
0:03:12 [DrJones] DrJones taps Bayou
0:03:13 [DrJones] DrJones taps Bayou
0:03:14 [DrJones] DrJones plays Elvish Spirit Guide from Hand

(I attack with the quirion and finley's life becomes 13)

0:03:23 [finley] It is now turn 7 (finley)
0:03:24 [finley] finley's life total is now 12 (-1)
0:03:25 [finley] finley draws a card
0:03:33 [finley] finley taps Serendib Efreet
0:03:36 [DrJones] DrJones's life total is now 11 (-3)
0:03:51 [finley] finley taps Ancient Tomb
0:03:52 [finley] finley taps Island
0:03:54 [finley] finley's life total is now 10 (-2)
0:03:55 [finley] finley plays Trinket Mage from Hand
0:04:26 [finley] finley puts Engineered Explosives into play from Library
0:04:32 [finley] finley taps Island
0:04:35 [finley] Engineered Explosives now has 1 (+1) counters.

0:04:38 [DrJones] It is now turn 8 (DrJones)
0:04:41 [DrJones] DrJones draws a card
0:04:54 [DrJones] <DrJones> Thinking
0:04:59 [DrJones] <DrJones> End my turn

(If I attack, he blocks Spirit Guide with Trinket Mage)

0:05:03 [finley] It is now turn 9 (finley)
0:05:04 [finley] finley's life total is now 9 (-1)
0:05:05 [finley] finley draws a card
0:05:22 [finley] finley taps Serendib Efreet
0:05:22 [finley] finley taps Trinket Mage

(I block Trinket with Quirion, as he will die to explosives otherwise.)

0:05:37 [DrJones] DrJones's life total is now 8 (-3)
0:06:03 [DrJones] It is now turn 10 (DrJones)
0:06:06 [DrJones] DrJones draws a card
0:06:09 [DrJones] DrJones taps Bayou
0:06:11 [DrJones] DrJones plays Might of Old Krosa from Hand
0:06:15 [finley] <finley> Thinking
0:06:17 [finley] <finley> resp
0:06:18 [finley] finley taps Ancient Tomb
0:06:18 [finley] finley taps Island
0:06:20 [finley] finley's life total is now 7 (-2)
0:06:21 [finley] finley plays Thirst for Knowledge from Hand
0:06:25 [finley] finley draws a card
0:06:26 [finley] finley draws a card
0:06:26 [finley] finley draws a card
0:06:38 [finley] <finley> gg
0:06:40 [<System>] <System> Player Lost

DrJones
07-09-2007, 07:08 AM
Solidarity (This matchup is a true walk in the park):

0:00:00 [n&#186;26] It is now turn 1 (n&#186;26)
0:00:03 [n&#186;26] n&#186;26 rolled a 10, using a 20 sided die
0:00:05 [DrJones] DrJones rolled a 3, using a 20 sided die

(his first 3 turns consist on playing 3 islands and pass the turn. My first 2 consist on playing a lotus petal, a forest, and a wooded foothills for bayou to cast an Elvish Spirit Guide that enters play)

0:02:03 [DrJones] It is now turn 6 (DrJones)
0:02:06 [DrJones] DrJones draws a card
0:02:11 [DrJones] DrJones taps Bayou
0:02:15 [DrJones] DrJones sacrifices Lotus Petal
0:02:17 [DrJones] DrJones plays False Cure from Hand
0:02:19 [DrJones] <DrJones> Ok?
0:02:22 [n&#186;26] <n&#186;26> Thinking
0:02:36 [n&#186;26] <n&#186;26> Ok
0:02:39 [DrJones] DrJones plays Reverent Silence from Hand

(here he discovers that he cannot counter the loss of life except with stifle. The only counter he runs is Remand, anyways)

0:03:19 [n&#186;26] n&#186;26's life total is now 14 (-6)
0:03:22 [DrJones] DrJones plays Invigorate from Hand
0:03:46 [n&#186;26] n&#186;26's life total is now 11 (-3)
0:03:55 [DrJones] DrJones plays Invigorate from Hand
0:04:01 [DrJones] <DrJones> -3 vidas
0:04:09 [n&#186;26] n&#186;26's life total is now 8 (-3)
0:04:14 [DrJones] <DrJones> Spirit guide is 10/10
0:04:18 [DrJones] DrJones taps Elvish Spirit Guide
0:04:21 [n&#186;26] <n&#186;26> Wait!
0:04:25 [n&#186;26] n&#186;26 taps Island
0:04:28 [n&#186;26] n&#186;26 plays High Tide from Hand
0:04:37 [n&#186;26] n&#186;26 taps Island
0:04:38 [n&#186;26] n&#186;26 taps Island
0:04:39 [n&#186;26] n&#186;26 plays Turnabout from Hand

(he taps my elvish spirit guide in my main phase)

0:04:52 [DrJones] DrJones taps Forest
0:04:54 [DrJones] DrJones plays Quirion Ranger from Hand
0:05:10 [DrJones] DrJones puts Forest to Hand from Play
0:05:11 [DrJones] DrJones untaps Elvish Spirit Guide
0:05:13 [DrJones] It is now the Combat Phase, Declare Attackers Step
0:05:18 [DrJones] DrJones taps Elvish Spirit Guide
0:05:18 [n&#186;26] DrJones taps Elvish Spirit Guide
0:05:25 [n&#186;26] <n&#186;26> gg

Iranon
07-09-2007, 07:11 AM
Decks like this are usually underrated.

The ability to do several disgusting things, which share some of the same tools, generally looks worse on paper than it is.

You can't rely on drawing a Kavu, or getting it huge.
You can't rely on False Cure killing them outright.
You can't rely on raping their eyesockets with Berserk.
You can't rely on winning as a sub-par old-school stompy deck when nothing degenerate crops up.



You can, however, rely on one of the above cropping up regularily. This is hardly the only deck that works on this principle: Goblins is, in many ways, a crappy midgame deck with chances to randomly do degenerate things (some fast enough to transcend the almost-dead archetype). There are just so many of them that it is reliable in its own way.

DrJones
07-09-2007, 07:24 AM
This one I don't know what deck he was playing:

0:00:00 [DrJones] rolled a 16, using a 20 sided die
0:00:00 [Watz] Watz rolled a 8, using a 20 sided die
0:00:13 [Watz] It is now turn 1 (DrJones)
0:00:23 [DrJones] DrJones plays Bayou from Hand
0:00:24 [DrJones] DrJones plays Lotus Petal from Hand
0:00:31 [DrJones] DrJones sacrifices Lotus Petal
0:00:32 [DrJones] DrJones taps Bayou
0:00:33 [DrJones] DrJones plays Kavu Predator from Hand

0:00:53 [Watz] It is now turn 2 (Watz)
0:00:54 [Watz] Watz draws a card
0:00:57 [Watz] Watz plays Cloudpost from Hand
0:01:01 [Watz] <Watz> End my turn

0:01:02 [DrJones] It is now turn 3 (DrJones)
0:01:05 [DrJones] DrJones draws a card
0:01:07 [DrJones] DrJones plays Bloodstained Mire from Hand
0:01:09 [DrJones] DrJones sacrifices Bloodstained Mire
0:01:11 [DrJones] DrJones's life total is now 19 (-1)
0:01:16 [DrJones] DrJones puts Bayou into play from Library
0:01:18 [DrJones] DrJones taps Bayou
0:01:19 [DrJones] DrJones taps Bayou
0:01:21 [DrJones] DrJones plays False Cure from Hand
0:01:35 [DrJones] DrJones plays Reverent Silence from Hand
0:01:37 [DrJones] DrJones plays Reverent Silence from Hand
0:01:42 [DrJones] <DrJones> Ok?
0:01:49 [DrJones] Kavu Predator now has 12 (+12) counters.
0:01:59 [Watz] Watz's life total is now 10 (-10)
0:02:00 [Watz] Watz's life total is now 8 (-2)
0:02:02 [DrJones] It is now the Combat Phase, Declare Attackers Step
0:02:03 [DrJones] DrJones taps Kavu Predator
0:02:08 [Watz] Watz's life total is now 0 (-8)
0:02:13 [DrJones] <DrJones> g2?
0:02:17 [<System>] <System> Player Lost

DrJones
07-09-2007, 07:34 AM
Decks like this are usually underrated.

The ability to do several disgusting things, which share some of the same tools, generally looks worse on paper than it is.

You can't rely on drawing a Kavu, or getting it huge.
You can't rely on False Cure killing them outright.
You can't rely on raping their eyesockets with Berserk.
You can't rely on winning as a sub-par old-school stompy deck when nothing degenerate crops up.

You can, however, rely on one of the above cropping up regularily. This is hardly the only deck that works on this principle: Goblins is, in many ways, a crappy midgame deck with chances to randomly do degenerate things (some fast enough to transcend the almost-dead archetype). There are just so many of them that it is reliable in its own way.
You couldn't have stated it better. There are plenty more logs, but I think I can stop flooding the thread. :smile:

DrJones
07-09-2007, 08:05 AM
I've updated the first post with the most current decklist, and added info about the sideboard plan against other decks in the metagame. I think the thread can be promoted right now to the open forum, so I have sent a pm to a moderator for the move.

Hope that brings more attention to the deck.

CleverPetriDish
07-09-2007, 09:33 AM
Good luck with that promotion. I mean that dubiously, since it doesn't tend to work that way. But this looks fun. I will try it tonight.

JCteam_ripio
07-09-2007, 12:22 PM
Hello everybody, I've played one local tournament with a GBr False Kavu deck, having great success with my decklist (1st out of 24). This is what I played

Creatures:
4x Kavu predator
4x Kird ape
4x Dark confidant
3x Tarmogoyf
3x Mire boa
4x Skyshroud Cutter

Spells:
4x Invigorate
2x False cure
3x cabal therapy
4x lightning bolt
2x Umezawa's jitte
2x putrefy
1x reverent silence

Lands:
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wooded foothills
3x Bloodstained mire
3x Bayou
2x Taiga
1x Badland
3x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Swamp
1x Grove of the Burnwillows

SB:
4x Pyroclasm
3x Duress
3x Pithing needle
2x Krosan grip
1x False Cure
2x Extirpate

My meta consists in 3 Vial Goblins, 2 MBC, 2 UGb grow, 1 Fish, 2 2-land Belcher, 2 Red Death, 2 Affinity, 1 Psychatog and some other rogues. Comments are welcome

DrJones
07-09-2007, 12:35 PM
Your deck is pretty similar to the one on the 2nd page that took 2nd place on another tournament, and looks solid with the card draw on Dark Confidant.

Which cards from your build do you suggest to our builds?
Which cards of our build would you include in your deck?
Why cabal therapy over duress?
Why only 2 false cure and 1 reverent silence?
What about adding Fling to your deck?

Edit: Congratulations for your 1st place, too!

JCteam_ripio
07-09-2007, 12:58 PM
Your deck is pretty similar to the one on the 2nd page that took 2nd place on another tournament, and looks solid with the card draw on Dark Confidant.

Which cards from your build do you suggest to our builds?
Which cards of our build would you include in your deck?
Why cabal therapy over duress?
Why only 2 false cure and 1 reverent silence?
What about adding Fling to your deck?

Edit: Congratulations for your 1st place, too!

First of all thanks for the interest :smile: I'll do my best to answer your questions

1. Try to squeeze the third color, best options being red for Lightning bolt (I hate first turn Lackey with all my heart), kird ape and pyroclasm coming from the board. Or white for swords to plowshares (good interaction with Kavu Predator) and Jotun Grunt for the beats and graveyard hate
2. Berserk :tongue: but I don't have any :frown:
3. Duress is dead weight against goblins but I do bring them from the board for game 2 against counters and combo
4. In my testing that's the best combination, remember I play a 3 color deck and revealing cmc 4 with confidant is... well you know... painful?
5. I might borrow some flings if I play this again cause hate will be expected :eek:

Once again thanks for the support and I hope I've answered all your questions

DrJones
07-09-2007, 05:07 PM
Just for the sake of being excesive, I'm testing Dark Confidant in my build, too. I'm replacing the 2x Summoner's Pact and 1x Land Grant for 3x Dark Confidant.

They look nice and is yet another card that eats Swords to Plowshares and Counters, card drawing in this deck is ridiculous, too, but now I definitely have too many 2cc cards in the deck, so I'm still testing them. I'm confident that they will enter my final decklist, though, as they have been featured on two winning decklists. I'm pretty happy about the improved consistency and most games I've lost today have been due to MWS randomly crashing my computer.

DrJones
07-09-2007, 05:20 PM
may we all see the updated list?
i really like the deck.
i've been working on a G/W/B list of my own with STP and condem.
thnxThe update decklist is the one from the first post, but replacing 2x Summoner's Pact and 1x Land Grant for 3x Dark Confidant. I haven't updated yet the first post because I'm still testing them.

I've been asked to post a budget decklist too, but I don't know how many people will be interested on it. Maybe once they ban Berserk again, heh. :laugh:

DrJones
07-10-2007, 03:02 PM
I have updated the first post with the addition of Dark Confidants. I think the resulting decklist unites the best from all builds of which I'm aware. Just for you to know, I'll be playing this deck on the Source Tournament VIII, so wish me luck.

For "finished" decks: Decks which are optimized and thoroughly tested. A deck is not required to have proven itself in a competitive tournament environment to be included in the Open Forum, but it is recommended. A thorough writeup including card choices, strategy, and matchup descriptions is required.I'm not sure about how decks get moved to the Open Forum, but I think this fits the criteria. Maybe someone could bring more light on this matter.

JCteam_ripio
07-10-2007, 04:01 PM
I have updated the first post with the addition of Dark Confidants. I think the resulting decklist unites the best from all builds of which I'm aware. Just for you to know, I'll be playing this deck on the Source Tournament VIII, so wish me luck.


Good luck man :wink: Are you thinking in splashing a third color or that will be your super secret tech for the tournament?

The_Prince
07-11-2007, 09:04 PM
After not really believing that this deck could work, I took the build on page one for myself and have been toying around with it ever since.

After a couple of test games, I came back to a more "protective" one with 2 colours and with the inclusion of duress and cabal therapy and engineered plague in the side.

Mongrel has, however, always been rather subpar. He doesnt trample like the kavu, which is why I've tested brawn (no comment) and he simply doesn't get big enough quickly enough.

'Goyf is very solid aggainst aggro I found, but whenever I had him out I was always wishing he could get 12/12. He in turn doesn't trample either but he usually stays boltproof even if I don't have cards in my hand.

Good luck in the tourney!

Aernout
07-12-2007, 06:45 PM
As for the budgetversion, I for one would very much like to see what you would make of it. I really want to build this deck IRL, but I can't afford it. Anyway, I'm currently testing with 4 revised Duals, Mirage Fetchlands and Terramorphic Expanse for the mana base, and I include a bit red to be able to play Fling instead of Berserk. It work so-so, the lands really hurt the decks speed. (DUH!)

DrJones
07-22-2007, 06:02 AM
I've not updated more often this thread because I'm a bit busy on the Source Tournament right now.

I've been noticing that Crumble isn't very good to answer the few artifacts that give problems to this deck. I also think that very fast "pure" combo decks are starting to appear on MWS, and it would be good to have more answers to them.

I'm still not sure between Pithing Needle and Tormod's Crypt. Pithing Needle still works against some artifacts, so the replacement of Crumble would be less traumatic. Tormod's Crypt is an auto-win against certain combo decks, so it's also something to consider. What do you think?

Cane818
07-23-2007, 11:47 PM
I like needles over crypt, but thats a meta problem. If your meta has a lot of graveyard decks than go crypt. Ohh and have you tried seedtime against control.

uryel
07-26-2007, 02:18 PM
Hello everybody, I've played one local tournament with a GBr False Kavu deck, having great success with my decklist (1st out of 24). This is what I played

Creatures:
4x Kavu predator
4x Kird ape
4x Dark confidant
3x Tarmogoyf
3x Mire boa
4x Skyshroud Cutter

Spells:
4x Invigorate
2x False cure
3x cabal therapy
4x lightning bolt
2x Umezawa's jitte
2x putrefy
1x reverent silence

Lands:
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wooded foothills
3x Bloodstained mire
3x Bayou
2x Taiga
1x Badland
3x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Swamp
1x Grove of the Burnwillows

SB:
4x Pyroclasm
3x Duress
3x Pithing needle
2x Krosan grip
1x False Cure
2x Extirpate

My meta consists in 3 Vial Goblins, 2 MBC, 2 UGb grow, 1 Fish, 2 2-land Belcher, 2 Red Death, 2 Affinity, 1 Psychatog and some other rogues. Comments are welcome

Evening!
i built a stompy deck whit kavu and +life gaining cards, now i'm following this tread because i like the general idea of the deck.

i used to put in my deck "Silhana Ledgewalker" cause of their evasion ability and to be non-targettable by the opponent. if they get right pump up and berserk can win game alone.

by the way i liked also the ideal of 3 colors splash
but i like more white splash:
sword to plowshares can interact whit kavu,
pick up vindicate instead of putrefy.

i'd would ask what cards would you replace to put in berserks?

JCteam_ripio
07-26-2007, 03:49 PM
Either Umezawa's jitte (berserks gives you a faster clock) or Mire boa

Cavius The Great
07-26-2007, 05:46 PM
I have a foil False Cure I traded for a couple weeks ago. If anyone in the Northeast wants to trade for it, send me a PM. :wink:

Captain_Ice
08-06-2007, 02:41 PM
Hi everybody,

Took this deck to a tournament this weekend and placed 18th out of 44 players.

4x Kavu Predator
4x Dark Confidant
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Skyshroud Cutter
3x Jotun Grunt
4x Duress
4x Cabal therapy
4x Invignorate
2x Reverent Silence
3x False Cure
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Rancor
4x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Plains


Sideboard
4x Krosan Grip
4x Engineered Plague
4x Engineered Explosives
3x Tormod's Crypt

The result isn't so bad, but could have been better.

Round 1 : Stompy Green
Game 1 : Only saw 2 Blastoderms that were kept off with a Bird and Grunt until Kavu came wandering in ... 13/13 nough said

Game 2 : Didn't even see 1 Blasto on the table so .... peace of cake

1-0-0

Round 2 : One of my testpartners playing Aggro-loam

Game 1 : Turn 2 --> 13/13 trampling warmachine

Game 2 : His jedi-mindtricks made me mull down to 4 and I saw another land on turn 7, which was the last of this game

Game 3 : I was still suffering from his jedi-mindtricks because once again I had to mull down to 5 and eventually Chalice and Engineered Explosives on 2 made me say GG

1-0-1

Round 3 : Vial Gobos
Game 1 : I only saw 2 Vials on the table , once again Kavu with the right pump made this a walk in the park

Game 2 : Sided in 4 plagues against 4x Duress but never saw or needed them

2-0-1

Round 4 : Angel Staxx

Game 1 : No Kavu on the table and my opponent played a chalice for 2.
Without Grip not much you can do
Game 2 : In come Grips, out go 3x Grunt and 1 Rancor.
Kavu hits the table as a 10/10 and does the job
Game 3: Here is where last night beers show up
Kavu (15/15 and growing) in play and a BOP. Opponent has Exalted Angel . I play Cabal and see Moat and Armageddon. And instead of saccing BOP for flashback Cabal I do nothing . Next turn he plays Moat and I say to myselve that's ok I still have Krosan in the deck. And again instead of saccing BOP I say GO. Next turn Armageddon and I say GG thanks to my misplays

2-0-2

Round 5 : Again Aggro-Loam

Game 1 : With only Bolt as an answer there isn't much they can to against Kavu before sideboarding, so 2 minutes later the job was done. Here was my first win with a false cure of 11.

Game 2: Never saw Engineered Explosives on the other side, so Kavu came once again bashing in as a 13/13 trampling warmachine

Quickest round of the day for me : 6 minutes

Round 6 : *****
Game 1 : Doesn't know what False Cure will do and lets it pass, but the Kavu gets countered and I don't draw another

Game 2 : Kavu hits the table and he finds no answer

Game 3 : Kavu gets countered and 3 mongooses do the job


3-0-3 and no top 16 (so no boosters)

Overall I really really like this deck and every time Kavu hit the table the game was mine, but the hardest mach-ups remain all decks with counters and/or removal/bounce. Fortunately I didn't see to many of those.

Pros

- Kavu is a BEAST !!!!!
- People who think what the .... !!!! when they see False Cure for the first time
- My partner who got beaten most of the time when we did some testing, but did beat me in the second round, won the tournament and took home 4 Beta SINKHOLES

Cons

- Without Kavu every matchup is a hard one
- There are only 4 Kavus in the deck
- Counter is a pain in the .... and sometimes duress and Cabal aren't enough


So that it for me. Next week there's another Legacy tournament and I hope that together we can make this deck a little more consistent so I can give it another try.

Thanks

PS. Sorry for the grammar and spelling, I 'm but a simple Belgian

DrJones
08-06-2007, 03:33 PM
Hi! Nice to see you!

Your decklist is nice, but needs improvement. For example, you only have 8 beaters (Jotun Grunt and Kavu), and you should be packing at least 11. I suggest either Tarmogoyf, Wild Mongrel, or Phyrexian Negator.

The other problem is that you use a white splash. Usually, The Cure already crushes creature decks so Swords to Plowshares is overkill, but it also is an huge boost against the mirror, which isn't very frequent as of now. Red would have worked better.

I should post my report on the Source Tournament here, but I'm very busy these days. I'll try to have it done tomorrow night.

Welcome to the source!

asi
08-06-2007, 06:49 PM
I was going to write an article about this deck that I've been tuning since Planar Chaos, but since today's my birthday, exams are next week, and the deck has started leaking on MWS, I thought it was the moment to write it here.

The Cure (Legacy G/b)
Author: Carlos Hoyos (DrJones)

Lands/Mana:
4x Bayou
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wooded Foothills
1x Forest

2x Land Grant
4x Lotus Petal
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

Creatures:
4x Kavu Predator
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Skyshroud Cutter
4x Quirion Ranger
3x Tarmogoyf
3x Dark Confidant

Spells:
4x False Cure
4x Berserk
4x Invigorate
3x Might of Old Krosa
3x Reverent Silence




Goldfished about a hundred games with a this list and variations of it. I was quite pleased by the results of a + 1 Dark Confidant - 2 Land Grant (60 cards) version. The deck works with surprisingly little mana, and the Confidant ist just great. Even with Petal+ESG to play him first turn without any lands, you can quickly draw some lands off of it (yes, I'm aware of the high risk of him being destroyed. I just want to give an example for an otherwise subpar hand that can be really good with Confidant). Wild Mongrel didn't impress me, too; I like that you can often discard fetchies to make him 4/4 or even larger and then go for the pump-Berserk-plan, but that isn't as great as it may sound. I thought about Silhana Edgewalker; sadly, he is a really tiny creature, but has two great abilities. Might try it out soon.

By the way, I was really impressed by Kavu Predator. This morning, my brother and I argued whether the Stifle/Dreadnought deck was Tier 2 or worse, me saying it was Tier 2 because it can power out a 12/12 Trampler second turn. Well, though the decks are hardly comparable, I like how this deck will often have a 7/7 or even 12/12 Trampler first turn. It just feels great.

DrJones
08-06-2007, 07:24 PM
Goldfished about a hundred games with a this list and variations of it. I was quite pleased by the results of a + 1 Dark Confidant - 2 Land Grant (60 cards) version. The deck works with surprisingly little mana, and the Confidant ist just great. Even with Petal+ESG to play him first turn without any lands, you can quickly draw some lands off of it (yes, I'm aware of the high risk of him being destroyed. I just want to give an example for an otherwise subpar hand that can be really good with Confidant). Wild Mongrel didn't impress me, too; I like that you can often discard fetchies to make him 4/4 or even larger and then go for the pump-Berserk-plan, but that isn't as great as it may sound. I thought about Silhana Edgewalker; sadly, he is a really tiny creature, but has two great abilities. Might try it out soon.The deck works perfectly with -2 mana sources, but that increases your mulligans a bit (I think an increase of 1 for every 4 or 5 games). Maybe it's because I played it too much on MWS, but I feel better having them, and also adds a bit of protection against Blood/Magus of the Moon.

Wild mongrel doesn't look too impresive because it's not the best deck to abuse it. Still, it's the best creature this deck can afford. There's another build that plays Phyrexian Negator instead, I should put a link to it in the first post, if you prefer a Suicide Black shell. Mongrel is a "beater" and also gives an use to your dead cards, which is one of the reasons the deck works so well; it also gives a backup route for Berserk without kavus nor False Cures (adds resiliency). It doesn't trample, but Berserk tend to fix that. Also, it's the only other 2cc creature that can achieve a 2nd turn kill in this build by combat damage.

What Silhana ledgewalker has against it is that is not a beater, which is an huge loss. When you lose speed, some cards start becoming a problem. But don't let my talk stop you, or this deck won't evolve. :wink:


By the way, I was really impressed by Kavu Predator. This morning, my brother and I argued whether the Stifle/Dreadnought deck was Tier 2 or worse, me saying it was Tier 2 because it can power out a 12/12 Trampler second turn. Well, though the decks are hardly comparable, I like how this deck will often have a 7/7 or even 12/12 Trampler first turn. It just feels great.Just imagine how you feel when the opponent does exactly that. Heh.

Top Deck
08-07-2007, 11:37 AM
What about this: just a compromise between combo and control...

Creatures:
4x Kavu predator
4x Dark confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Skyshroud Cutter

Acceleration:
4x Lotus Petal
3x tinder wall
2x Land Grant

Draw:
3x Street Wraith

Spells:
4x Invigorate
4x False cure
3x duress
3x cabal therapy
2x Brain Pry
3x reverent silence

Lands:
4x Wooded foothills
2x Bloodstained mire
3x Bayou
3x Forest
1x Swamp


- Tinder Wall makes some crazy second turn games (Goyf+Kavu or double Confidant..) and stops Lackey for long enough to start the combo.
- Street Wraith brings card and in the meanwhile makes Goyf stronger.
- Brain Pry either hits StP, or brings new card.

Just suggestions..


In my version of the deck, I have been running Birds of Paradise and Elvish Spirit Guides, and where are your Rancors? They put birds and bob to work!
Also ESG > tinder wall in my opinion. Why worry about great turn 2 plays when you can have great turn 1 plays?

DrJones
08-07-2007, 12:52 PM
Here comes the long awaited (sort of) report about how this deck managed on "The Source Tournament".
Let's post a bit of shameless self-promotion first, to introduce our deck to newcomers, haha.

THE MOST AWESOME REPORT IN EXISTENCE!!
FEATURING THE BEST INVENTION SINCE SLICED BREAD!!

"T H E - U N S T O P P A B L E - M O N S T E R"

"Is green the new best color in legacy?"

Here's what people said about the deck:

<Noobslayer> wow
<Fred[Ger]> what?
<The Rack> unbelievable
<Di> i dont want to die next turn if possible
<finley> ...
<Silyus> have you 30 of that in the deck?
<System> Player Lost

The Cure is a revolutionary new concept of aggro/combo decks, which unites chain of combos with pure sinergy to achieve a consistant clock that can kill as soon as turn 2. The nature of the combo makes it immune to usual combo hate cards, while its efficient aggro shell fights past your opponent's disruption.

This is the decklist that took 14th place on the Source Tournament VIII, tied in points with other decks ranging from 10th to 18th.

The Cure (Legacy G/b)
Author: Carlos Hoyos (DrJones)

Lands/Mana:
4x Bayou
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wooded Foothills
1x Forest

2x Land Grant
4x Lotus Petal
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

Creatures:
4x Kavu Predator
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Skyshroud Cutter
4x Quirion Ranger
3x Tarmogoyf
3x Dark Confidant

Spells:
4x False Cure
4x Berserk
4x Invigorate
3x Might of Old Krosa
3x Reverent Silence

Sideboard:
4x Compost
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Null Rod
3x Xantid Swarm
2x Crumble

The Report:
Jokes aside, the tournament was a blast. I did not face any single european (it seems they were all on the top tables), so I had to play all my games at very wrong times both for me and my opponent. Some of them stood over 3am to play me, which was unbelievable nice (that, or they are truly addicted).

Decklists were supposed to be secret, but a mere search of threads started by my opponents usually told me beforehand which deck were they playing. Mine was publicly known, but still delivered. I should have switched Crumbles for Pithing Needles (and play some MD), but I got stuck with them.

Round 1: Noobslayer with unknown deck
First game, I open with Bayou and Quirion Ranger. He plays a fetchland and passes the turn. I then get BB from the same Bayou thanks to quirion and proceed to False Cure, Reverent Silence, Invigorate. GG.

For the second game, I board in Compost with no clue about his deck. He starts with a Plated Sliver, taking me by surprise. fortunately, he seems to be playing discard instead of counters.
I play Bayou, Quirion ranger and Compost out of two Lotus Petal. He plays Sinew Sliver and attacks. Next turn, I play Wild Mongrel. He plays Jitte and duress and takes away a Might of Old Krosa, but it's useless. Next turn I attack with both, invigorate twice the mongrel, return bayou to my hand with G floating and discard my hand to play a lethal berserk. GG.

1-0-0

Round 2: Di with Survival
First game I start defensively because I think he's playing Thres, so when he plays survival I only have a quirion on board. I play Kavu Predator soon after to fix that, but on his turn he discards anger and plays rofellos, birds of paradise, and nimble mongoose. Next turn I attack and leave him at 6, but it's too late, next turn he plays bone shredder and ravenous baloth with Genesis on graveyard.

Second game I start with Kavu Predator + invigorate. He uses cabal therapy twice to discard two berserks, but he leaves the board open and dies next turn with a lucky draw.

Third game, I have to mull to five, and end without creatures. He plays Nimble mongoose and sacrifices it to discard me two false cures before I can combo him. I play quirion, he plays Survival and Flametongue to kill quirion. I topdeck a Wild Mongrel and play it. He plays mongoose and timber wall.
Because he knows that I have at least one Berserk, I trick him and attack with a Mighted Mongrel. He blocks and loses everything, but I still hold Berserk. I then cast Reverent Silence and leave him with and empty hand and without genesis. Sadly, he topdecks another Survival next turn and recovers thanks to Squee.

1-0-1

Round 3: The Rack with Rockin' Funkbrew
The Rack runs regenerating creatures, which are useless against this deck, this leaves discard and swords as the only worries of this match. I hope to get the start first game, and then side Compost for the next ones.

First game I start (Yai!), my starting hand is immune to duress, so I play Dark Confidant to start fast. He cast a duress and misses. I attack and play Wild Mongrel. He plays a timid Spectral Lynx. Third turn, I attack with both and proceed with False Cure, Invigorate, discard hand, berserk. GG.

Second game I side in the compost, He duress a False Cure, leaving compost in my hand. Horrible mistake! I play Compost, but we both seem to be mana screwed. I play Kavu, he cast swords, and then a Dark Confidant (another horrible mistake!). He has to kill twice my Quirion Rangers with the same Darkblast, giving me a whole lot of cards. He casts a 6/7 Tarmo, I play a Kavu and a Mongrel. He plays a Lynx and attacks leaving a Scrubland untapped, but I don't block because I see a swords-proof win next turn. I attack and he blocks Kavu, then I cast Invigorate on Mongrel, which eats a swords. I proceed then to double Berserk Kavu Predator for the win.

2-0-1

Round 4: Tivadar with Angel Stompy
Angel Stompy is an easy match, because it allows me to win by casting Cure on Angel + Invigorate. Sadly, MWS shuffler decided to screw me big time this match.

First game: I mull down to 4 cards and still see no lands, but I cannot mull further. Turn 2 I get to play a 1/2 Tarmogoyf with two Lotus Petal, which gets sworded that same turn. After a few turns, I get to play a Dark Confidant and a Mongrel, but he already has Exalted in play. He attacks and gets out of reach (21 life) at the last moment. I deal him 20 damage next turn and scoop.

Second game: I keep a risky hand with two predators and Tarmogoyf. The first Kavu gets sworded, and the second one gets a Force of Will. He then plays the Meddling Mage naming Tarmogoyf (first time I see a Meddling Mage get the card right) and I get stuck. Seeing that I don't draw any other creature in several turns, I'm forced to cast Berserk on him, but it's too late. My tarmogoyf gets sworded as soon as it enters play, and I end stuck with one land and no creatures. I'm now officially out of T8!

2-0-2

Round 5: Fred Bear with Armageddon Stax
Stax is no opponent for this deck as long as I go first, so I hope I win the dice roll.

First Game: I win the roll (Yai!) and start with Tarmogoyf followed by Quirion and Wild Mongrel. He starts losing life like mad with Ancient Tomb to get a Propaganda in play. I have Reverent Silence on hand, but I don't want to use it yet. He then lays Trinisphere and Armageddon, which wouldn't be pretty if I had not Quirion Ranger in play. I use Ranger tricks to reach mana for Reverent Silence and start beating him with huge monsters. Jotun Grunt is too small to stop them and he dies a painful death.

Second Game: He starts with Trinisphere first turn, followed by Crucible second turn, Armaggedon third turn, and Smokestack for fun. I'll get Revenge!

Third Game: I start with a Confidant. He does nothing, but laying a plains. I play Quirion Ranger and attack. He plays another plains and passes the turn. Is he a goldfish or what? I 3rd-turn kill him with Might of Old Krosa + Berserk + Berserk. Easiest game ever! (MWS sucks for everyone).

3-0-2

Round 6: Agent Funk with Landstill
With our score it's impossible to T8, so we played mostly for fun. Unfortunately, we got a weird accident second game that had to be solved by external sources.

First Game: I bring him down to enough life with Dark Confidant to be able to kill-combo him on turn 4, after he stealed me the goldfish with counterspell last turn, which prevented him to activate his Engineered explosives.

Second Game: Very long game where he keeps recurring Engineered explosives, but he is still unable to kill my Skyshroud Cutters. He keeps countering, duressing me, and throwing swords to my beaters until turn 30, where I got to cast False Cure. He proceeds to break Landstill, then cast Brainstorm for a counter, but it seems he doesn't find one, as he cast Swords on my Cutter. I wait for a whole minute anyways without response about the Ok? on the False Cure, so I assume he has let it resolve and cast a lethal uncounterable/unpreventable/untargetable 6 life loss in form of Reverent Silence. He scoops five seconds later and I think I've won.

However, he contacts me and tells me he got disconnected just after the swords, and that he was asking a friend if he could counter the life loss on Reverent Silence, and that he had the fourth Force of Will ready in hand. He didn't kept the game state, and the crash happened just after an unsolvable win, so having a rematch didn't look so clear for me. Because we were playing for fun, I told him we would let Parcher rule if it was a game loss or a rematch, and proceed to play the following games for fun.

Third and Fourth games were played for fun, if playing against Landstill counts as having fun. I didn't sideboarded and he won both games, but Parcher ruled on my favor, so they didn't count.

4-0-2

And that was all!

Props:
Parcher, for running this tournament and having to rule our match.
My opponents, for being nice, waiting for me while I wasn't in home, playing at such late hours, and cheer me up.
My Deck, for being so fun!
The People on this thread, for helping developing it.

Cons:
Crumble, because it should have been Pithing Needle.
MWS, for screwing me on round 4.
MWS, for crashing on the last match on an otherwise enjoyable game.
MWS, because it sucks so much.

DrJones
08-07-2007, 02:13 PM
Hi, Sasa!

As top deck has said, Timber Wall doesn't look right. If done right, the goblin player should be put on the defensive, and 1st turn Kavu + Cutter is more than enough for this. In a deck splashing red it might work, but in a GB build is better to have Quirion Ranger to untap your beaters, or Elvish Spirit Guide to accelerate your monsters, both being good and affordable.

Edit: I moved old decklists to this post, to keep them there for historical purposes, as I had to make room on the first post for the write up.

The Cure (Legacy G/b) (old)
Author: Carlos Hoyos (DrJones)

Lands/Mana:
4x Bayou
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wooded Foothills
1x Forest

2x Land Grant
4x Lotus Petal
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

Creatures:
4x Kavu Predator
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Skyshroud Cutter
4x Quirion Ranger
3x Tarmogoyf
3x Dark Confidant

Spells:
4x False Cure
4x Berserk
4x Invigorate
3x Might of Old Krosa
3x Reverent Silence

Sideboard:
4x Compost
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Null Rod
3x Xantid Swarm
2x Pithing Needle


The Cure (Legacy G/b) (oldest)
Author: Carlos Hoyos (DrJones)

Lands/Mana:
4x Bayou
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wooded Foothills
1x Forest

3x Land Grant
4x Lotus Petal
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

Creatures:
4x Kavu Predator
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Skyshroud Cutter
4x Quirion Ranger
3x Xantid Swarm

Spells:
4x False Cure
4x Berserk
4x Invigorate
3x Might of Old Krosa
3x Reverent Silence
2x Summoner's Pact

Sideboard: (still in progress)
4x Compost
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Tarmogoyf
3x Crumble
2x Null Rod

Remarkable changes:
1. Added a forest to increase protection against wasteland, and more importantly, Blood Moon (and Magus of the Moon).
2. Land Grant is still there because searchs the forest under a Blood Moon (unlike fetchlands), and also pumps Tarmogoyf.
3. Changed Outbreaks for Tarmogoyfs, as no TES spotted during playtesting, and I needed something to sb against aggro.
4. Xantid Swarm still maindecked as MWS is flooded of Threshold decks and it crushes the deck. In another meta, they might be replaced by Tarmogoyfs.

It happens that some decks start packing Tangle Wire, which is another reason to run Quirion Ranger.

Top Deck
08-07-2007, 03:34 PM
Hey dr. jones,

Not to steal any thunder from you promoting this deck, but I have been playing false cure + kavu since kavu was available. Anyhow our builds are similar yet different and at the time I didn't have access to Tarmogoyf.

I am still suggesting that you should run Rancor main. I was playing around randomly once and I had this deck with the old 9 land stompy shell for mana base. So I had 4 Land Grants in the deck, but I had a lot of mana accel in birds and elves. Anyhow I lent out my land grants and I quickly subbed in Rancors and I am never going back to pre-rancor.

Rancor is the bomb because it makes a lot of dead turns (and believe me you have this a lot) into doing something turns. What I mean by dead turns is having an elf or bird or even dark confidant without any boost to win. With rancor you give all of your non-tramplers (dark confidant, birds, elves, and tarmogoyf) and out to win and also win big with berserk.

I would keep you deck shell together but remove Might of Old Krosa in favor of Rancor. Remember if they destroy your rancor'ed beast you get back the rancors and if you reverent silence you get them back as well.

I would also remove Quirion Rangers in favor of birds because they help a lot getting you the critical double black for the cure. Also rancor works great with those silly skycutters who are idle most of the time. ;-)

First turn kavu + 2 skycutter is great with second turn rancor on one cutter and rancor on the other cutter and swing for doom.
(kavu would be 12/12 and 2 4/2 tramplers seems good == 20 damage)

DrJones
08-07-2007, 04:57 PM
Hey dr. jones,

Not to steal any thunder from you promoting this deck, but I have been playing false cure + kavu since kavu was available. Anyhow our builds are similar yet different and at the time I didn't have access to Tarmogoyf.

I am still suggesting that you should run Rancor main. I was playing around randomly once and I had this deck with the old 9 land stompy shell for mana base. So I had 4 Land Grants in the deck, but I had a lot of mana accel in birds and elves. Anyhow I lent out my land grants and I quickly subbed in Rancors and I am never going back to pre-rancor.Hi, Top Deck! Your post is interesting, so I want to comment some of your points, It's mostly explaining my reasoning, rather than arguing about which one is better.

About Rancor vs Might of old krosa:
I've tested both cards extensively, and I found that both were very good on its own way.

Rancor:
1. Gives trample to Mongrel and other critters.
2. Reusable.
3. Better with Tarmogoyf.
4. Worse with Reverent Silence. (every mana counts)

Might of Old Krosa:
1. More explosive. (deals the damage sooner)
2. Comboes better with Berserk. (read my report vs Stax)
3. Protects your critters.

After measuring them, I chose the explosive one because I value more pure speed and greater sinergy with Berserk (surviving attacks is pretty good, too). For a slower strategy, Rancor is a better fit (or Jitte, for that matters)


Rancor is the bomb because it makes a lot of dead turns (and believe me you have this a lot) into doing something turns. What I mean by dead turns is having an elf or bird or even dark confidant without any boost to win. With rancor you give all of your non-tramplers (dark confidant, birds, elves, and tarmogoyf) and out to win and also win big with berserk.See, I don't have this problem. By playing safe you lose the initiative and let the opponent develop a defense against you. If you ask anybody that have faced me, they will tell you that I attack every turn with my critters unless I absolutely need to keep them. There are many reasons for this:
1. Trades benefit you, so the opponent usually doesn't want to trade a critter for a 1/1 elf to prevent 1 point of damage (which is relevant in this deck)
2. Because letting pass Tarmogoyf/Mongrel easily means game over (hell, even blocking them isn't enough), the opponent will block them over Confidants, elves, and cutters.
3. The opponent doesn't know if you have Might/Invigorate (you should play around what the opponent knows), so blocking that 2/2 with Exalted Angel might turn it into a Dead Angel.

So, it's not uncommon to see me attack with Dark Confidant. Call it reckless, but that's how I designed this deck to behave.


I would also remove Quirion Rangers in favor of birds because they help a lot getting you the critical double black for the cure. Also rancor works great with those silly skycutters who are idle most of the time. ;-)Quirion rangers also get double black for cure. Read the 2nd turn kill in my first match. I have rangers instead of Birds because the deck doesn't need mana, but it NEEDS a forest. So, I prefer having a 1/1 that protects my lands over a 0/1 flier that accelerates next turn.


First turn kavu + 2 skycutter is great with second turn rancor on one cutter and rancor on the other cutter and swing for doom.
(kavu would be 12/12 and 2 4/2 tramplers seems good == 20 damage)Also, first turn kavu + 2 cutter, and then 2nd turn 2 Might of Old Krosa on Kavu (it tramples, you know) = 24, which I enjoy more. (I would think twice before playing that 2nd cutter on 1st turn, though)

TrialByFire
08-07-2007, 06:16 PM
this deck seems like so much fun! and cheap too...( except 'cough' berserk 'cough':tongue: )

bunch of commons and berserks and turn 2 kills. I like

Top Deck
08-07-2007, 06:37 PM
Hi, Top Deck! Your post is interesting, so I want to comment some of your points, It's mostly explaining my reasoning, rather than arguing about which one is better.

About Rancor vs Might of old krosa:
I've tested both cards extensively, and I found that both were very good on its own way.

Rancor:
1. Gives trample to Mongrel and other critters.
2. Reusable.
3. Better with Tarmogoyf.
4. Worse with Reverent Silence. (every mana counts)

Might of Old Krosa:
1. More explosive. (deals the damage sooner)
2. Comboes better with Berserk. (read my report vs Stax)
3. Protects your critters.

After measuring them, I chose the explosive one because I value more pure speed and greater sinergy with Berserk (surviving attacks is pretty good, too). For a slower strategy, Rancor is a better fit (or Jitte, for that matters)

See, I don't have this problem. By playing safe you lose the initiative and let the opponent develop a defense against you. If you ask anybody that have faced me, they will tell you that I attack every turn with my critters unless I absolutely need to keep them. There are many reasons for this:
1. Trades benefit you, so the opponent usually doesn't want to trade a critter for a 1/1 elf to prevent 1 point of damage (which is relevant in this deck)
2. Because letting pass Tarmogoyf/Mongrel easily means game over (hell, even blocking them isn't enough), the opponent will block them over Confidants, elves, and cutters.
3. The opponent doesn't know if you have Might/Invigorate (you should play around what the opponent knows), so blocking that 2/2 with Exalted Angel might turn it into a Dead Angel.

So, it's not uncommon to see me attack with Dark Confidant. Call it reckless, but that's how I designed this deck to behave.

Quirion rangers also get double black for cure. Read the 2nd turn kill in my first match. I have rangers instead of Birds because the deck doesn't need mana, but it NEEDS a forest. So, I prefer having a 1/1 that protects my lands over a 0/1 flier that accelerates next turn.

Also, first turn kavu + 2 cutter, and then 2nd turn 2 Might of Old Krosa on Kavu (it tramples, you know) = 24, which I enjoy more. (I would think twice before playing that 2nd cutter on 1st turn, though)

hey doc jones,

okay i see your angle. i like what you said about the quirion rangers makes sense to me. but as far as rancor being slower, i disagree. might is more situational since you usually can only might for 2 (in terms of when you can use it). but when you do might for 4 then that critter is sure as hell swinging.

with rancor you are always swinging regardless. when i built the deck it was after planar chaos, and that's what i meant to that i didn't have access to tarmogoyf. i will goyf since i have about 8 of them anyhow and they aren't doing anything. but ill definitely consider running ranger over elves, but not birds. birds are a must if you are running rancors. double rancor for the win. ;-)

and also my average kill was turn 3 also. the deck really runs very well if you draw false cure + any combination of invigorates and free spells. you really only have to do like 8 or less damage from critters.

1st turn kavu, second turn false cure and 2 skycutters = gg :D.

silence was never an issue, but what was originally was i was playing the deck with survival of the fittest since i wanted to pitch for my win conditions. in those games, silence hurt.

oh yaw i would cut down to 2 berserks instead of 4. part of my reasoning is berserk is always a kill more card. drawing 1 or 2 is fine, but drawing 3 is usually a bad sign (triple berserk just means plowshares). also the second reason is i only play with beta stuff so my berserks are alpha and beta and my bayous are beta.... (i dont like foreign BB lands---> they look awful).

Top Deck
08-08-2007, 10:36 AM
Well, thatīs true.
After carefull consideration I must also admit, that the exchange of Brain Pries and Duresses for Berserks is slowing the deck down, and therefore there is no proper reason to use so much discard.

EDIT:


MiKro for 2 is nearly always just enough:
- it sufficiently protects Kavu (yes, and Skyshroud Cutter...) from Bolt, Chain L. and Helix
- Tarmogoyf is beyond this range most of time
- Mongrel saves itself via discard

The problem is just with Confidant and Quirion, but these can be protected with Invigorate, if You need so...

oddly enough i wouldn't care if they take out bob or quirion. it just draws firepower from the real threats. So bob protects his dogs. :D

I never bother casting Kavu unless I have a life gain spell in hand if I know they are running removal. Also you have duress so again you can get the 411 on your opponent before they move.

Might seems like a fun to play though but I would use it to compliment Rancor. Again in my build I am running birds (which also draw more bolts and plows than bob), so birds protect the kavus too. If they dont bolt the bird, I drop out rancor on it and draw out the fire power since birds often left uncheck will swing for the win.

DrJones
08-08-2007, 12:04 PM
As a remark, all what Might of Old Krosa cares about is it being played on one of your main phases, so if you played Cutter and they cast Pyrokinesis on Kavu on response to it gaining counters, Might of Old Krosa would give it +4/+4.

Top Deck
08-08-2007, 01:03 PM
Itīs all about Berserks - having them spells "use MiKro", not having them spells "use either Rancors or discard".

What does the "you can get the 411" phrase mean? Sorry, if I missed something...:)


Oh sorry, "411" in America means you get the information on them. Duress make
them reveal their hand and thus you can make a better play decision.

I am still in favor of Rancor since it turns a lot of your cards into threats. Before I didn't run rancor and had more discard (4 duress and 4 cabal therapy). I just the therapies in favor of rancor and I haven't looked back.

DrJones
08-08-2007, 06:17 PM
I personally won't suggest running less than 4 Berserk.

Berserk is not a "win more" card in this deck, it's a combo piece. In combo decks, you run 4x of your combo pieces, even if drawing multiples sucks.

But that's not Berserk's case. In fact, multiple Berserks is another fast Kill Combo in this deck!! (as is most of times berserk + cure and berserk + predator) By cutting Berserks, you are removing kill conditions, making the deck less redundant and thus less consistent. Redundancy is the key here, that's why this deck doesn't run any tutor.

Double berserk is good enough to risk losing a creature to swords to plowshares, what's the worry? This is not a traditional combo deck that loses once interrupted. And if you draw 3 Berserk, all the better! If you are interrupted, you still have one to try again later (as 2 are surely enough to deal lethal damage to your opponent).

DrJones
08-09-2007, 11:01 AM
Well, I have to admit this allegation. In this deck Berserk is not just a flavour card (like in RG Beats or Affinity), but it is a combo piece making the deck turn or two faster.
But the price... :cry: trollandtoad has :g: for 60 bucks... still I want them, if only I make a promotion in my job...Well, economics do count here. I hadn't time to design a powerless version yet, but you can replace Berserk with 2-3 Fling (recommended) or Desperate Gambit meanwhile, as long as you put a Taiga and a Badlands in there instead of the Land Grants.

My previous post was considering that you already have access to 4x Berserks. :wink:

Finn
08-09-2007, 03:20 PM
Are you all still using Reverent Silence?

Out of color, but I have always wanted an excuse to use Fiery Justice. It seems tht it could be really good in this deck. Pardon if it has been mentioned. I have not been keeping close tabs on this.

Captain_Ice
08-15-2007, 11:13 AM
Hello,

Next weekend there's another Legacy tournament and I'm thinking of taking this deck.
I still prefer the white splash instead of the red.

4x Kavu Predator
4x Dark Confidant
4x Skyshroud Cutter
3x Jotun Grunt
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Vindcate
3x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Invignorate
2x Reverent Silence
3x False Cure
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Rancor
4x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Plains


Sideboard
4x Krosan Grip
4x Engineered Plague
4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Engineered Explosives


I'm thinking of putting 3x Tarmogoyfs in, but I don't like the bad synergy with Grunt.
Vindicates may be taken out cause I think this deck needs 3 more creatures but can't find any better than Tarmo.

Have been thinking about Carnophage, River Boa, Mother of Runes, Wild Mongrel.....

Suggestions ......

Thanks

Ps Don't have the Berserks otherwise they would be in there

DrJones
08-15-2007, 05:26 PM
I suggest cutting some lands and Sensei's Divining Tops to put Quirion Ranger on there. Acceleration + Land Protection + Pseudo-Vigilance is frankly very good in this deck.

Red is a good splash because of Fling and Price of Progress, which make up from the loss of Berserks. It also opens up interesting SB cards. White is good too because of Swords mostly, but Orim's Chant as well.

I suggest adding another beater instead of Mother of the Runes, as you run too few and a lot of discard. in my experience Tarmogoyf feels smaller than Wild Mongrel in this deck, but should work better for a slower build.

Also, I think you should run a few more cards against combo/control either main or in your sideboard, as aggro is already your strong point. I suggest Pithing Needle because it will be the most useful against them.

Good luck in your tournament!

Captain_Ice
08-16-2007, 05:13 AM
I've tested the top yesterday and liked it alot.
It can get you the needed Kavu, False Cure and life-cards and if there's nothing you can use than you can break a fetch to see 3 new cards and still draw one if needed.

If I were to splash red I would put 4 Goyfs, 3 Fling and 4 Bolts in there

Yesterday it also felt that the countermatchup was better with 3 Duresses and 4 Cabal (8 if you count the flashback). Still felt that I needed more creatures so Goyf will come in.

Ranger is good as you say but cutting the lands down to 11-13 seems a bit risky since I lost 2 matches last tournament due to manascrew and you don't have any free land cards like Land Grant. Top also helps here.

Will test again with the red splash.

Maybe this will sound as a newbie question but still : when you say Orim's Chant is better to break the combo and protect Kavu from a STp under a False Cure, I thought that once your opponent plays a spell Orim's Chant couldn't stop this because the spell is allready played ??

Thanks for the help

Cane818
08-17-2007, 04:21 AM
Sylvan Library a nice card, and sometimes ill run it over Dark Confident.
The only reason I use dark confident is that above all else this is a agro deck, and creatures are better than enchantments.

Also I really don't know how the top and the library would work together. I have never tested it before.

diffy
08-25-2007, 07:51 PM
No no, I never thought of using Sylvan Library with SDT, but instead of it! And of course - Dark Confident must remain in the deck...


If you're only into using an alternative enchantment to Sensei's Divining Top and not using the 4life draw that often you could also just play Mirri's Guile (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/130.html) which has the advantage of coming down one turn earlier and sets your draws up as soon as t2 without further mana investment.

Cane818
08-27-2007, 02:39 AM
I will try Mirri's Guile.

DrJones
08-27-2007, 07:38 AM
Mirri's Guile has anti-sinergy with Reverent Silence.

Cane818
08-28-2007, 01:27 AM
Yah but by the time you play reverent silence. You should pretty much win.

Cane818
08-29-2007, 11:28 PM
If anyone is running a version of this deck that has fling in it well you just got another great card for your deck. Phyrexian Dreadnought

This guy should be put in this deck some how.

shaftshaftner
09-05-2007, 01:47 AM
hey,

i have been testing this archetype for a little while now and i had this deck built on my own when another mws player linked me to this thread. with that in mind, i have a somewhat different take on it (at least from drjones) based on what i imagined the deck to be in the beginning. i have a more combo-oriented version sans tarmogoyf/mongrel with living wish to up the count on kavu predator and skyshroud cutter. this leaves space for duress/therapy/confidant for disruption and draw.
hell, i'll just post the list:

4x wooded foothills
4x bayou
3x windswept heath
1x swamp
1x forest

3x kavu predator
3x dark confidant
3x skyshroud cutter
2x elvish spirit guide
4x quirion ranger

4x cabal therapy
4x duress
4x berserk
4x lotus petal
4x false cure
4x invigorate
4x reverent silence
4x living wish

sideboard still under construction

while i appreciate the multiple threats and consistent speed of the other version, it is more of my play style at the moment to keep the combo/control elements of my own. has anyone tested living wish or have any thoughts on it?

also, is anyone else getting schooled by trinisphere? it seems to stop me in my tracks (such a low curve and free spells becoming stuck in hand).

thanks in advance, and it's great to see other people loving the kavu/cure synergy like i do.

Cane818
09-05-2007, 02:57 AM
I don't like living wish because you cast it what turn one, they see the kavu.
If all things go right you than cast kavu turn two. If things go wrong they plan for your kavu and ice you.

Trin hurts a bit, but because my deck is more agro based. I don't have to get the combo off to win. You can just run your deck like a green stompy deck.
I have null rods in my sideboard. But you can always sideboard some kind of artifact destruction if you want. It can be helpful aginst chalice of the void as well.

I run duress and Cabal Therapy in my deck. I believe the disruption is very helpful.

Ohh and more i play with quirion ranger the less I like it. I dont run any in my deck anymore. People just either wasteland right when it came out when nothing was tapped or they just killed it.

HdH_Cthulhu
09-05-2007, 05:56 AM
Goyf is everywehere,
Why Goyf isnt here?
With berserk you could trampl trough another one and deal some dmg...

DragoFireheart
09-17-2007, 09:08 PM
Lets say we don't have Berserk as it's a 60+ dollar card.

How would this budget deck work out?

Creatures
4 Kavu Predator
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Skyshroud Cutter
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Mongrel


Spells
4 False Cure
3 Fling
4 Invigorate
3 Reverent Silence


Enchantments
3 Rancor


Artifacts
4 Lotus Petal


Lands
4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills

Cane818
09-19-2007, 12:11 AM
You can always make the fiery justice deck.
I don't know where you can find it but it uses
green, red, and white. I don't think it runs berserk either.

DrJones
09-21-2007, 07:25 AM
I've been out this month due to exams. How did the budget versions worked? I will add the list on the first post if they worked well.

I also concur that chrome mox is too much card disadvantage for this deck. That's the reason I pack the lotus petals instead.

Cane818
09-30-2007, 05:48 PM
Yah I think if u add a third color to the deck the deck becomes to slow.

But if u go white
Teeg, heros reunion.

TheMightyQuinn
10-01-2007, 02:30 AM
Teeg is not good, cause You cannot play Cutters and Silences.

You're only half right. Go read Gaddock Teeg again.

Top Deck
12-03-2007, 06:18 PM
Back during Planar Choas, I was playing this deck when I saw Kavu Predator.

The build I have been running is like this:

4 elvish spirit guide
4 bayou
1 swamp
3 windswept health
2 polluted delta

4 dark confidant
3 rancor
2 berserk
4 birds of paradise
4 llanowar elves
4 duress
3 cabal therapy
4 kavu predator
4 false cure
2 elves of deep shadow

4 reverant silence
4 invigorate
4 skyshroud cutter

The deck has been solid and consistent for me. I saw that a lot of the builds here relied too much on Quirion Ranger and Lotus Petal. Lotus Petal while being nice and okay doesn't do anything drawn later.

The version I am running is a tad less explosive since I don't run Might of Old Krosa, but it is more consistent. I have a lot of mana accel and rancor main. I never really bothered dropping in tarmogoyf since it is just a big vanilla creature. The main conditions have always been kavu, false cure, or berserking a creature with rancors and invigorates.

technogeek5000
12-03-2007, 06:26 PM
yah predator is pretty much standard here. I like the beserks in your list, but i guess if they werent so expensive more people would be playing them. Also do you realy need elves of deep shadow. i would think that lotus petal would be better because it works the turn it comes out speeding you up. Also what do you have for a board.

Top Deck
12-03-2007, 06:50 PM
yah predator is pretty much standard here. I like the beserks in your list, but i guess if they werent so expensive more people would be playing them. Also do you realy need elves of deep shadow. i would think that lotus petal would be better because it works the turn it comes out speeding you up. Also what do you have for a board.

I really don't board that often when I am playing, but I have boarded in epochrasites a few times and they seemed to work well. Also naturalize, blackmail, and thoughtseize have worked for me as well.

But you are right that more people would be playing the deck if they could get a hold of berserks. I paid about $100 for a beta and alpha one (I was very lucky), and even unlimited ones go for $50-60!!

Media314r8
12-03-2007, 09:09 PM
Seems like a fine 9-land stompy variant with a black splash for disruption. Traditional Stompy played creatures that averaged 2 power for each 1CMC, so predator is about on curve there as it can easily be a 4/4+ with Invigorate/Cutter. (I personally don't like silence MD, esp with the rancors as it only works if you have predator and is a dead card if you dont have predator.) Goyf is absolutly necissary, as you are playing a more consistant, higher curve than traditional stompy builds, and even they have grudgingly admitted sir-stomps-alot into their lists as he is just so friggin huge, like a non-trampling predator wth an extra toughness, only he coems that way, no life-pitch spells required. With Birds and (possibly) lotus bloom, have you considered Doran in this deck at the gihh end of the curve? He makes your birds and goyfs better (in addition to being a 5/5 for three) and you could run vine dryad as a 3/3 forestwalker, (conditionally) which you could hardcast with the higher mana count. Teeg could also come in from the boards vs storm combo if you splash white. I must re-iterate, I really like the black splash here, as it seems to make the combo-match-up winnable. (perhaps thoughtseize over duress to help beat goblins and breakfast)

Top Deck
12-04-2007, 12:41 PM
Seems like a fine 9-land stompy variant with a black splash for disruption. Traditional Stompy played creatures that averaged 2 power for each 1CMC, so predator is about on curve there as it can easily be a 4/4+ with Invigorate/Cutter. (I personally don't like silence MD, esp with the rancors as it only works if you have predator and is a dead card if you dont have predator.) Goyf is absolutly necissary, as you are playing a more consistant, higher curve than traditional stompy builds, and even they have grudgingly admitted sir-stomps-alot into their lists as he is just so friggin huge, like a non-trampling predator wth an extra toughness, only he coems that way, no life-pitch spells required. With Birds and (possibly) lotus bloom, have you considered Doran in this deck at the gihh end of the curve? He makes your birds and goyfs better (in addition to being a 5/5 for three) and you could run vine dryad as a 3/3 forestwalker, (conditionally) which you could hardcast with the higher mana count. Teeg could also come in from the boards vs storm combo if you splash white. I must re-iterate, I really like the black splash here, as it seems to make the combo-match-up winnable. (perhaps thoughtseize over duress to help beat goblins and breakfast)


i wouldnt nab seize over duress; however, i might throw in seize over therapy.
vine dryad is definitely interesting, but it is a 1/3 forestwalker... kinda underpowered. kavu is right now the most powerful creature in the deck along with dark confidant. i am considering tarmos and i might toss a couple in.

Cane818
12-05-2007, 11:59 PM
I quit playing this deck when thoughseize came out.

Top Deck
12-06-2007, 12:41 AM
I quit playing this deck when thoughseize came out.

Why would you do that? Thoughtseize is no better than duress against this deck.

Cane818
12-06-2007, 04:09 AM
Are you kidding? I have had Kavu TS in way to many game.
Discard went from okay to bad.

Cane818
12-06-2007, 04:11 AM
Also with the rise of Tarmo. The use of creature removal has gone threw the roof. I see swords to plow in a lot more games than it used to be.

DrJones
08-20-2009, 08:41 AM
I just spent two months playtesting and refining this deck to absurd levels, making it more robust and consistent. I know it's done because I can finally notice the magic aura that emanates from perfectly built decks. :wink:

I also updated it to the new meta and the addition of some new cards that got printed in the meanwhile. I have goldfishing statistics from about 500 games, matchups info, sideboarding strategies and much more. I would love to finally get it promoted to the established deck forum this time. :laugh:

I'll be busy updating the first post right now. Including pretty pictures, a section of reasons to play the deck, semi-budget and budget builds, and FAQ. Also detailed explanations for the slots and cards that didn't make it. :smile:

I was waiting for the next mtgTheSource Tournament to start before posting the deck but it's taking forever, so I'm going to post the list just in case any Timmy, Stompy, Berserk or Wild Mongrel lover decides to give it a try. :smile:

Barsoom
08-20-2009, 10:06 AM
I would love to finally get it promoted to the established deck forum this time.

About this, i'll quote what Bardo said in another topic:

@ All - Trust me when I say the staff is not constantly scouring the site for decks to promote (other than fairly-regular DTB updates). If you think a certain deck deserves to get promoted, just PM me or one of the other site staff and we'll look into it.

DrJones
08-20-2009, 10:11 AM
@Samsunait: I did that the last time. The problem is that many people view this as a casual deck. I hope I have more luck this time. :/

Edit: It's taking a bit because I'm taking breaks. I'll probably finish updating the first post tomorrow. Just the last part remaining.

Shanghi Knights
08-20-2009, 10:58 PM
i read through most of the 07 posts and much of the decks main problems still seem relevant at the same time the answers to those problems can still be explained away just as relevantly.

over i like the concept of the deck and its multiple stradegies to reach victory out of using those 3 main cards.

MTG-Fan
08-21-2009, 12:20 AM
I was playing against this on MWS one night.

I Thoughtseized this guy, saw the Kavu Predator and the Skyshroud Cutter, and was like "Hmm, so that's his plan.". Made him discard Predator and I was feeling pretty confident. A turn later, he plays a False Cure and Skyshroud Cutter together, and I lose (I was at less than 10 life at that point).

I was like, "wtf was that?".

Shanghi Knights
08-21-2009, 01:45 AM
what did he do to widdle down your other 10 life?

edit: i mean 8 life i forgot you hurt yourself with that thoughtseize and maybe some fetchs in there?

MTG-Fan
08-21-2009, 02:21 AM
I forget.

I just know it completely caught me off-guard when he pulled that combo off after I thought I had removed his combo piece by discarding the Kavu Predator.

DrJones
08-21-2009, 05:29 AM
I remember having played against some fellow sourcers on MWS, but there have been too many games to remember specifics. One thing is for sure, this deck has terrific topdecks. Just last day I got an enchantress deck play three 4/4 angels tokens from a Sigil of the Empty Throne with me at 12 life and only a Mongrel and Confidant in play. I thought I was going to lose, but then I drew berserk + Invigorate and dealt 44 trampling damage with mongrel on that very turn.

About the 8 point swing, it could probably be an Invigorate. Cutter + Invigorate is 8 damage from a False Cure. If I had Dark Confidant in play, I might have drawn the two that same turn.

If you have specific questions or concerns about the deck, I'll try to answer them as best as I can. If you want to know more against certain matchups, I've played against all the decks on the DTB section and many more from the established decks forum. Some metas might require tweaks to the main deck.

Edit: Just found that one of the statistics was wrong due to a typo. Now it's fixed and gives an average turn kill of 3.045 when going second, which is consistent with the raw data I had. I knew I had made an error somewhere, so sorry.

DrJones
08-21-2009, 06:50 PM
Finally left the casual forum! :smile:

I have almost finished writing the specific matchup section. If you want to know more about some specific matchup, post it here. Also, suggestions are welcome! :wink:

DrJones
08-23-2009, 10:19 AM
I've found another deck that ended 2nd in a big Legacy Tournament. I think the decklist is interesting for all those that prefer slower, more controlish builds, because it plays more like traditional Rock builds. I would use Quirion Rangers instead of rituals, tough.

"The Cure" by Enrico Cruz (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22480)

hwtcharger07
08-23-2009, 10:42 PM
4 elvish spirit guide
4 bayou
4 forest
4 swamp
4 windswept health

4 berserk
4 pernicious deed
4 summoner's pact (very important!!!, its ESG 5-8 (when going FTW), or free 5 damage from skyshroud cutters 5-8 when going off)
4 thoughseize
4 false cure

4 reverant silence
4 invigorate
4 kavu predator
4 skyshroud cutter
4 tarmogoyf

thoughts: i used to goldfish this deck quite a bit and it was alot of fun. however i disagree with some card choices

mongrel: is a waste, all the cards in this deck are useful and i am not trying to pitch them to him for 1 point more of power (2 with berserk)

Bob: bob is slow and eats removal if the opponent is stupid (if they are smart they let bob kill you) running 8 cards with cc of 4 is bad with bob.

the white splash: garbage the only maindeck card you gain is swords which while good doesn't warrant changing the mana base. heroes reunion does not make the cut as there is no room in the maindeck for it also you need 4 lands out for it to do any damage to the opponent IMHO its too weak. Teeg is solid although only as SB to deal with ANT.

lorddotm
08-24-2009, 08:18 AM
Bob: bob is slow and eats removal if the opponent is stupid (if they are smart they let bob kill you) running 8 cards with cc of 4 is bad with bob.

the white splash: garbage the only maindeck card you gain is swords which while good doesn't warrant changing the mana base. heroes reunion does not make the cut as there is no room in the maindeck for it also you need 4 lands out for it to do any damage to the opponent IMHO its too weak. Teeg is solid although only as SB to deal with ANT.

So excuse me for a moment, are you a complete idiot?

You just said that killing Bob, a card which completely turns the game in your favor, and is probably the best card in this deck, is a horrid idea because you lose life? Drawing two cards a turn is an extremely powerful effect, and at two mana, Bob is in the top 5 creatures ever printed, if not the best.

While I agree that Teeg is a great sideboard card, calling Swords to Plowshares not worthwhile in a deck that wants to give the other dude life is really odd (plus, sending Naught farming with False Cure/Kavu out is the nuts). Going three colours isn't a big deal at all, you just need two Savannahs along with 8 fetches and you're good.

Also in your list, Deed just seems really really bad. Deed is a great control card, or a good sideboard card. In an aggro combo deck, Deed isn't what you want to be doing, those slots would be better as Swords.

Not running Tarmogoyf in this deck is a mistake. If your combo decks disrupted, you always have Tarmogoyf to fall back on, plus him plus Berserk seems awesome.

Pro Tip, Berserk double as psuedo-removal. After damage resolve, just Berserk the dude you want to die.

eq.firemind
08-24-2009, 08:31 AM
Pro Tip, Berserk double as psuedo-removal. After damage resolve, just Berserk the dude you want to die.
Unfortunately, this doesn't work like you want.

Cast Berserk only before the combat damage step.
Target creature gains trample and gets +X/+0 until end of turn, where X is its power. At the beginning of the next end step, destroy that creature if it attacked this turn.

But you may choose to take doubledamage in some extraordinary situations (I can't imagine such an occurance when piloting this deck)...

lorddotm
08-24-2009, 08:53 AM
Unfortunately, this doesn't work like you want.

Cast Berserk only before the combat damage step.
Target creature gains trample and gets +X/+0 until end of turn, where X is its power. At the beginning of the next end step, destroy that creature if it attacked this turn.

But you may choose to take doubledamage in some extraordinary situations (I can't imagine such an occurance when piloting this deck)...

Lame shit.

DrJones
08-24-2009, 09:12 AM
Please let's keep this thread friendly. As I said on the first post, very innocent-looking variations to the deck can have an huge impact on performance. Dark Confidant can be truly horrendous if your deck is on average a turn and a half or two turns slower than the currently posted decklist. That difference in speed is what makes Dark Confidant bad for him, even though it's so amazing.

The main concern with swords to plowshares is that it strenghtens matchups that are already much in your favor, and also makes the mana base less consistent. In fast builds creatures shouldn't be your main concern, but I don't want to shut the door to an obviously good card with great sinergy.

And about Tarmogoyf, it's not as easy as it looks. Goyf is amazing and makes the late game wonderful (in the same way that Confidant makes the late game horrible), but he's not a good first turn drop to start building pressure (in the sense of 'answer this or you die next turn'). He can't race combo decks as easily as mongrel or leech, and he's much better target for steal effects than those two. There's also the fact that it's quite hard for this deck to make Goyf big, because it doesn't run artifacts and enchantments, and your creatures tend to be exiled (elvish, kavu) rather than destroyed.

But I think I have an interesting idea for an alternate list that might make more people happier. I will try to post it later. :wink:

DrJones
08-24-2009, 06:51 PM
Hello again.

I spent some hours using the search fuction on many forums to learn more about what other people that had played or faced the deck had to say, to get feedback about 'blind playtesting'. I also asked some testers about what they didn't like about the deck, and that's the information I got.

1. Many people hated to lose to this 'deck that doesn't win any tournament', specially enchantress, heh.
2. People seriously enjoy their Tarmogoyfs.
3. Some people don't like to discard cards to mongrel.
4. Competitive players were unable to get a consistently win ratio against threshold, which I claimed was a really good matchup.
5. Some testers don't enjoy that the 2cc slot is too clogged up (which is why this deck works so well with/against Chalice of the Void). That's a concern because threshold plays 4 Spell Snare, 4 wastelands and 4 stifle.

With that info, I conducted a little experiment today with the following goals:
1. Get a better win/ratio against Thresh
2. Find a good 1cc card that I can side out game 2 to get Chalice.
3. Test Tarmogoyf as a mongrel replacement.

To avoid variability due to pilot skill differences, I played against myself. I took a standard canadian thresh list (the best one, according to many people) and played a lot of matches against a Cure deck to which I had done the following changes.

-4 mongrel -2 Putrid Leech -3 thoughtseize +3 tarmogoyf +3 Hidden Gibbons +3 duress

The results of the test were a bit devastating. 3 Tarmogoyf was one too few and I couldn't put any pressure to the canadian thresh. In the original build, sometimes you get to land a mongrel because it's hard to justify casting FoW on it when holding a hand full of direct damage, but that's not the case of Tarmogoyf which is a magnet for counters. Another problem was that Goyf couldn't just be played turn one and hope for it to survive against direct damage, which gives enough time to the Thresh player to play a land and enable daze. The conclusion is that Goyf cannot replace Mongrel. Sorry pals, I tried and failed. He is at most beater #9-12 on this deck.

Duress was a bit better than Thoughtseize, which is mediocre to say the best. The only card you want to discard is Goyf, and Thresh can protect him with brainstorm or search for more with so many drawing and shuffle effects. Not even losing a FoW hurts, because if it had been a card worth countering instead of Duress, it would have cost FoW, another card, and a life instead. You can't play 1cc discard in this deck and still hope to get a good game 1 against Canadian Thresh, because it just doesn't work.

However, Hiddens Gibbons is an entirely different story. You cast one 1st turn and suddenly the opponent stops stifling your lands or sculpting perfect hands with Brainstorm. They start to miss land drops, too. He thinks twice about using Fire/Ice on your Dark Confidant, and let's not talk about Playing TWO Gibbons first turn out of an ESG/Petal. I saw that from the Thresh side, and I could sense my frozen, tainted heart just falling to the floor, and the panic of totally losing the control of the board in just one moment. And that, my fellows, is the sincere and moving touch that I want all my opponents to feel when they face against me, so I'll be playing Gibbons from now on.

B is for Big Job
08-24-2009, 07:52 PM
Hidden Herd could another possibility like gibbons could be working off non basic lands. Its hard to find any decks in the format now that dont play non basic lands. It may not be as powerful as gibbons but could be a solid creature. The only problem is that chalice at 1 just hurts the deck alot if both gibbons and herd are in at the same time.

OurSerratedDust
08-24-2009, 08:03 PM
Could you post your latest decklist when you get a chance? I think hidden gibbons is an excellent addition.

Xanthos
08-24-2009, 11:41 PM
Edit: Question answered in the first post. Somehow I missed it. I still think 60 cards is the way to go but that's just one man's opinion. Good luck with the deck!

Also, the current decklist seems to 61 cards. Is that a typo or is there anything that could possibly be cut to bring it down to 60?

DrJones
08-25-2009, 04:00 PM
You can cut a land if you don't mind doubling your mulligans. Other than that, the safest slots to take out/replace are the ones for Thoughtseize and Leech. But 2 thoughtseizes are too few to be useful, and if you take out both leeches you end with too few beaters (actually, it's still enough, except in that 2 counters/removal spells totally shut you then).

DrJones
08-29-2009, 07:10 AM
This is totally stupid. I'm testing replacing the leechs with Tarmogoyfs, but when I do that, I get consistently awful hands with no land after three mulligans, or manaflooded. But then I play the old decklist again and the god hands return! O_O

It's totally frustrating. two leechs for two tarmogoyfs shouldn't change the behavior of the deck in MWS at all, let alone this much. I'll try to post the mwsDeck files to see if someone can replicate this, or its just my computer.

Edit: Actually, it's the precise combination of 3 Hidden Gibbons 2 Tarmogoyfs that produces this, using thoughtseizes and/or leeches doesn't have this behavior.

Schembo
08-29-2009, 09:41 AM
I played today at local legacy tourney and went 2-3 :frown:

List is same as front page, i only replaced leeches with tarmogoyfs. I winned ichorid and top/c.balance ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and i lost 2 times for merfolk and for tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh.

Both merfolk games i winned first game but then lost round 2/3. Lost three times for my own predator that was taken over with mind harness :eek:
Newer got that Reverent Silence when u need it.

But i got nice time with this deck and next time need to try some new tricks.

DrJones
08-29-2009, 12:25 PM
Hi, Schembo. From the sounds of it, you were doing pretty well until you got hated out so badly. Good to know you still had fun with the deck! Hope next time you'll have more luck.

I'm right now conducting another experiment to test the MWS randomizer. This time, I played 100 games (50 going first, 50 going second) with a deck with 3 Gibbons and 2 Tarmogoyf, but here's the twist: I'm playing the gibbons as Thoughtseizes and Tarmogoyfs as Putrid Leeches. I'm trying to test if the MWS shuffler is truly random and impervious to user input, or if the "random seed" can be manipulated depending of deck composition.

These are the statistics after 100 games:

Going first:
Average Winning Turn: 3.6
% 2nd turn kills: 10%
% 3rd turn kills: 40%
% 4th turn kills: 36%
% 5th turn kills: 8%
% Fizzles: 6%
Mulligans required: 0 (78%) 1 (16%) 2 (2%) too many (4%)
Mana floods: single (18%) double (2%)
Mana screws: single (20%) double (2%)

Going second:
Average Winning Turn: 3.46
% 2nd turn kills: 12%
% 3rd turn kills: 50%
% 4th turn kills: 22%
% 5th turn kills: 8%
% fizzles: 6%
Mulligans required: 0 (84%) 1 (10%) 2 (0%) too many (6%)
Mana Floods: single (10%) double (2%)
Mana Screws: single (14%) double (0%) triple (4%)


Mana screw is defined as no lands. Mana flood is defined as 5 or more lands+accelerators. Double means getting the same problem right after mulliganing. Most goldfishes were won on turns 3 to 5 despite mana troubles due to taking risks and lucking out. Others weren't as lucky and are included as "fizzles". Fizzling is penalized the same as a sixth turn win in the above calculation.

Some numbers are better than the ones on the first post, due to random variation. I'll test another 100 games later with the other decklist and see what happens.

georgjorge
08-29-2009, 12:44 PM
The results of the test were a bit devastating. 3 Tarmogoyf was one too few and I couldn't put any pressure to the canadian thresh. In the original build, sometimes you get to land a mongrel because it's hard to justify casting FoW on it when holding a hand full of direct damage, but that's not the case of Tarmogoyf which is a magnet for counters.

That's some odd logic, saying Mongrel is better because the opponent won't counter it as he's not afraid of it. It's GOOD to play stuff that your opponent wants to counter because it means that the card is a threat to him, otherwise you could replace Mongrels with Grizzly Bears which I assure you are never going to get countered by anyone.

DrJones
08-29-2009, 02:22 PM
That's some odd logic, saying Mongrel is better because the opponent won't counter it as he's not afraid of it. It's GOOD to play stuff that your opponent wants to counter because it means that the card is a threat to him, otherwise you could replace Mongrels with Grizzly Bears which I assure you are never going to get countered by anyone.I'm not saying that Mongrel is good because he is not a threat. I'm saying that he is good because he is deceiving. He doesn't seem as dangerous as he truly is. Let's say that you are a Thresh player, and you have the following hand:

Force of Will, daze, Lightning Bolt, fetchland, fire/ice, volcanic island, trygon predator

Then, your opponent plays Wild Mongrel.

You can counter it with FoW and take away spell snare/trygon, OR you may let it pass because you kep FoW and Daze against other threats, and lightning plus predator plus fire/ice to stop the mongrel.

You let it pass, then on your turn cast lightning on it, and he casts invigorate, you play daze and he removes an ESG. Ok, so then you have either to waste another 2 cards on FoW, or let the dog enter. This example costs you 4 cards if you want to get rid of the dog, and you are left in very bad position against the rest of threats that will come after him. Or, you let the dog survive, but you no longer have cards that can deal with him.

Of course, you can simply FoW the dog from the start, but that's not obvious. :wink:

Now, suppose that instead of a Mongrel you see a 3/4 Tarmogoyf, then the obvious thing would be using FoW, because killing him with bolt is not an option.

DrJones
08-29-2009, 05:18 PM
Ok. Here's the second part. Another 100 games but with the original decklist this time:

Going first:
Average Winning Turn: 3.75
% 2nd turn kills: 4%
% 3rd turn kills: 36%
% 4th turn kills: 42%
% 5th turn kills: 18%
% Fizzles: 0%
Mulligans required: 0 (76%) 1 (20%) 2 (4%) too many (0%)
Mana floods: single (8%) double (0%)
Mana screws: single (18%) double (4%)

Going second:
Average Winning Turn: 3.34
% 2nd turn kills: 10%
% 3rd turn kills: 54%
% 4th turn kills: 30%
% 5th turn kills: 4%
% fizzles: 2%
Mulligans required: 0 (86%) 1 (12%) 2 (0%) too many (2%)
Mana Floods: single (6%) double (0%)
Mana Screws: single (16%) double (0%) triple (0%)

The first ten games were really atypic and account for half of the mulligans, half the mana screws and a third of the mana floods of the entire 100 tests; I put two statistics (including and excluding them from the calculations). I fizzled a single game in which I kept a hand with 5 lands thinking I would draw soon a beater or a combo piece, but instead got even more lands and an elvish spirit guide.

The data size is maybe too small to prove something, but the data I got was:

"bad hands" (either too many mana sources or too few)
Untouched decklist: 32% (23.75% not counting first 10 games)
Proxied decklist: 43%

fizzles
Untouched decklist: 1%
Proxied decklist: 4%

Average winning turn
Untouched decklist: 3.545 (3.5125 not counting first 10 games)
Proxied decklist: 3.53

The consistency felt much worse. Twice the number of bad hands, which prompted 4 times as many fizzles, which in turn slowered the clock due to the penalty I used on the calculations. Could this prove that MWS shuffler sucks? Do bad hands happen in bursts? Was this caused by random variance, or can you mold the "random seed" in your favor? I just got more skilled after 200 games? Can someone pass the same test?

lyracian
08-31-2009, 08:40 AM
Having just got a couple of Berserks due to FTV: Exiled I have been looking at decks to use them in and I really like the False Cure style.

I realised it does not work with Ranger but would having a couple of Overgrown Tomb's not help with getting the double Black & Forest on turn two? Did a search and could not see it having been discussed anywhere.

DrJones
08-31-2009, 09:39 AM
Overgrown Tomb kind of works, but you never want one and it can deal a ton of damage to you in this deck. I tested them and hated them so much. I was really hoping for better suited duals on M10 but there was no such luck.
The deck doesn't need a full set of Bayous to work, though, and if rumors are true, Zendikar will provide the much needed enemy fetchlands. Fortunately, 2x Berserks plus 2x Rite of Consumption is almost as good as a full set of Berserks. It's almost as if the designers were trying to attract more people to play this deck, heh.

Hope you enjoy it!

lyracian
08-31-2009, 12:50 PM
I have a full set of Bayou, I just think that only five real land seems a bit low. It is propably because it is outside my comfort zone. I hate being mana screwed and being hit by a first turn Stiffle sucks.

With only two 'zerks I am propably just playing this as a casual deck for now so think I will go with some extra land while I play around with it.

DrJones
08-31-2009, 01:00 PM
Oh, I that case you can add more lands, of course. I just put all those extra fetchlands as extra-protection against wasteland and for deck-thinning, but that's just me. The deck does work with more basics and/or mana producing lands. It will also help you more against blood/magus of the moon than the current decklist. Here's the mana base a friend of mine uses:

// Lands
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [TSP] Forest (1)
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [A] Bayou
2 [MM] Land Grant

He uses Wasteland instead of Duress/Thoughtseize, and they quite work, too, as long as you run at least 13 lands that produce colored mana. He traded a wasteland for another forest to avoid color-screw, but 4 should still work. Land Grant is there because he also runs Goyf as 4x and needs more sorceries to make it worth it.

About Stifle, I actually prefer them to cast it on the lands rather than kavu/false cure triggers.

lyracian
08-31-2009, 01:14 PM
That looks more like what I would play.
I was thinking 4 Bayou, 2 Overgrown Tombs & 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth as well as a few basic forests and fetchlands.

DrJones
08-31-2009, 01:26 PM
The problem with Urborg is that you can't search for it, and you don't want a land that only produces black, either. That's why the deck doesn't run Dark Ritual nor basic swamps. Maybe in a deck that uses more black it would be more useful. I love Urborg. :(

DrJones
09-11-2009, 05:48 AM
Big news! Zendikar so far has two cards that could go into this deck!

The first one is obvious, the B/G Fetchland. :P
The second one is Needlebite Trap (http://puremtgo.com/articles/zendikar-preview-card). The best play of which I can think would be casting two right after casting Invigorate. Seems a bit situational, but it's worth testing, even with that "anti-false cure" clause, heh.

Gocho
11-23-2009, 05:56 AM
Nobody test the Needlebite Trap?

Philipp2293
12-09-2009, 06:25 AM
Congratz on this deck, I think it's really cool to play and all, I'm really tempted to spend money on some Berserks. Just some points I noticed.

1.) Vines of Vastwood is a worthy addition IMO, both for the first effect, as well as the second.
2.) I was manascrewed too often during testing, I added 2 Overgrown Tombs for 2 Quirion Rangers.

DrJones
12-22-2009, 03:51 PM
Vines is awesome and I currently play them instead of the Might of old Krosa.

Yo-hann
01-28-2010, 03:56 PM
Hey any thoughts on the new card Natures claim ? is it mainboard potential instead of reverent?

i think its def. a sb must include!

sclabman
02-01-2010, 01:04 AM
Hey any thoughts on the new card Natures claim ? is it mainboard potential instead of reverent?

i think its def. a sb must include!

This will not see play here. Here is why:

1. It costs mana. The goal is to combo off as quickly and efficiently as possible. Tying down a forest/bayou for a measly 4 life is not optimal. The life gain is upon resolution too, in case they decide to counter it, which is not a problem with Reverent Silence.

2. It's pretty much useless. The type of artifact and enchantment we'd want to kill is stuff like Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, and Sensei's Top/Counterbalance. These would either outright stop you from playing Nature's Claim, or make it difficult. At that point you'd want to bring in Seeds of Innocence from the sb. That kills multiple things and gains them life, is difficult to counter with Countertop and Chalice, and combined with Reverent Silence can kill most kinds of hate they can put out.

My 2c.

Noisome
02-01-2010, 01:39 PM
DrJones, have you changed your deck much since the last, and see any new ideas present in Worldwake?

DrJones
02-01-2010, 03:55 PM
Hi! I've been really busy these days and that has prevented me from playing both online and IRL, but I have been following the news and I would like to update this thread soon. I've seen that foil berserks have fallen in price so I have bought a few.

Here are my thoughts about some cards that I've tried or considered trying:

1. Manaplasm.

Some people are afraid of playing Wild Mongrel or Putrid Leech, and as a result they end with not enough quality beaters to reach critical mass. Some players want creatures of higher casting cost to have more ways around Counterbalance, Chalice of the Void, Threads of Disloyalty and Spell Snare. The available options for them are either Manaplasm or Ravaging Riftwurm. From those two, I think Manaplasm works better and would be even stronger in a build that used cards like Needlebite Trap, Land Grant or Tombstalker, however those cards don't work well with Dark confidant. I've been told that Ravaging Riftwurm is a lot better than it looks, but haven't had the time to test them. After testing, I can say that Manaplasm "works" and is an available option for slower builds, but you shouldn't play more than 3 overall (the mana base can't support more, anyways).

2. Tarmogoyf.

The problem with Tarmogoyf in this deck is that it will be a 2/3 during the time frame that you should care about, making it a bad kird ape instead of the monster it is in the rest of the field. I've been testing him time and time again, but they're moderately useful at most as a two of a kind. They shine in the late game, but in that case it's not better than Tombstalker or Manaplasm; in the early game is worse than Putrid Leech.

3. Duress / Thoughtseize

My most sided out card, they are very dull and never really useful. Still looking for a replacement in the 1cc slot.

4. Needlebite Trap

This card has two problems. The first one is that it becomes yet another dead card in your hand until you have something that gives life to your opponent, the second one is that it plays horrible with Dark Confidant. Maybe worth testing in a build with manaplasms and sylvan library.

5. Arbor Elf

It would be interesting in a deck that actually spends mana in its spells, but the only reason I see to use it would be to replace Elvish Spirit Guide in slower builds.

6. Nature's Claim

I see maindeck potential in this card, because my current 11 life-gaining spells feel barely enough. It cannot take the place of Reverent Silence because it requires the opponent's cooperation, but it's versatile enough to warrant a try.

7. Groundswell

It looks like a better Might of Old Krosa. Currently using 2x Vines of Vastwood instead, but as Might generated faster kills, this one is also worth considering.

8. Quest of the Gravelord

Might be worth a try.

DrJones
02-04-2010, 08:45 AM
Testing impressions. Here are some cards I've been testing that didn't work out and my reasoning:

1.Vinelasher Kudzu: Usually a 3/3 or 4/4 unless you get a quirion ranger in play, almost as useful as Putrid Leech. Discarded because late game it's horrible.

2. Nature's Claim: Horrible maindeck, but I still think it might work in the sideboard. The kind of decks that cause you trouble are not the ones that you want to fight with this card.

3. Terravore: Pros: Trample and good size. Cons: A bit unreliable, might try it again.

4. Skyshroud War beast: Cannot be used to deal fatal blows in early game, and the opponent stops playing lands as soon as it lands. :(

5. Quest for the Gravelord: The only time my beaters see the graveyard is when they are countered, otherwise they usually end exiled.

6. Summoning Trap: Usually gets the same fate that the creature that got countered in the first place, and there are no cool creatures in this deck to abuse it anyways.

7. Leyline of Lifeforce: Unfortunately too weak. This deck can't mulligan into it, you need to have 4 copies in your deck if you want a slight chance of drawing it, and mid game is uncastable. Damn! Will have to test Multani's presence.

Cards I'm going to test now: Deathmark (sideboard), Adventuring Gear, Unearth.

DrJones
02-23-2010, 07:31 PM
After testing and thinking a lot about this for weeks, I think I finally found the magical mix of cards that this deck so much needed. I also have learned to slow down against decks with much slower clock so that I have more mana/cards to maneuver around their hate, while still being as blazingly fast as ever. Canadian Threshold no longers gives me problems after board and so far I have absurdly good pairments against Zoo, Merfolk, ANT, and other Tier 1 decks.
I cannot reveal my latest decklist, because I plan to play it this weekend at GP Madrid and it includes a lot of tech that must remain secret, but I'm pretty happy with its current configuration. Wish me luck!

thorin_the_king
02-23-2010, 08:46 PM
looking forward to meet you there!! i will expect your list after the gp because i'm a lover of berserk decks. I have berserk stompy built, but it's going to be a friend who will pilot it at the GP; but i hope we'll play against. i imagine this weird match-up: imperial painter vs the cure (not something that occurs everyday). good luck!!!!

Philipp2293
02-24-2010, 03:05 AM
After testing and thinking a lot about this for weeks, I think I finally found the magical mix of cards that this deck so much needed. I also have learned to slow down against decks with much slower clock so that I have more mana/cards to maneuver around their hate, while still being as blazingly fast as ever. Canadian Threshold no longers gives me problems after board and so far I have absurdly good pairments against Zoo, Merfolk, ANT, and other Tier 1 decks.
I cannot reveal my latest decklist, because I plan to play it this weekend at GP Madrid and it includes a lot of tech that must remain secret, but I'm pretty happy with its current configuration. Wish me luck!

All the best, I'm hoping for a decklist after the GP though ;)

XiaN
02-24-2010, 10:22 AM
All the best, I'm hoping for a decklist after the GP though ;)
On DeckCheck's T8 of cause :wink:

Ponso
02-25-2010, 05:50 PM
DrJones u have a private :P

Forbiddian
02-25-2010, 06:33 PM
I love Legacy.

Anyway, good luck at the GP.

sclabman
02-28-2010, 09:22 PM
I'm interested in the decklist mentioned above... I scoured the web for it but to no avail. I hope you had a lot of fun playing!

DrJones
03-01-2010, 08:43 PM
Hello again! Now that the GP is over, I can share the deck I used at the tournament. Well, I actually couldn't find all the cards in time and had to make some small changes to the decklist.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// NAME: The Cure (Legacy G/b)
// AUTHOR: Carlos Hoyos (DrJones)

// Lands
4 Bayou
1 [TSP] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [OD] Wild Mongrel
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [PLC] Kavu Predator
4 [NE] Skyshroud Cutter
3 [VI] Quirion Ranger
2 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [ON] False Cure
3 [U] Berserk
4 [MM] Invigorate
4 [NE] Reverent Silence
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ON] Tempting Wurm
SB: 4 [UD] Compost
SB: 2 [TE] Choke
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip

I had to play two land grant due to lack of fetches, and replace a Tarmogoyf with a Putrid Leech. I also played 4x Chalice of the Void instead of 4x Berserk, but I kind of liked how these numbers worked in the tourney, so from now on I will always play four CotV main. The most difficult achievement was finding 3 Tempting Wurm just in time for the tournament. Nobody had heard of them or thought about putting such a bad card in their trading binders. I almost had given up when the owner of a store in Madrid drove off to his house and searched in his crap rare box to sell me one. I also found another one on the very last minute before the start. Although the wurm looks horrible, it's really strong against decks like ANT, landstill, canadian, countertop and even zoo. If you like this deck, go get them NOW before they climb up in price. Once you learn when to cast them, they are plain and simply incredible.

I had doubts with my sideboard. Thoughtseize looks good in paper as a general answer against everything, but I've rarely used it in practice. The other options were Faerie Macabre and Pithing Needle. After thinking a lot about it, I finally added Pithing Needle as a solution against depths, belcher, survival and merfolks. While I tested the reanimator match, the lists on deckcheck all looked too slow to be dangerous. I was wrong.

See, the problem was that these lists weren't good. The lists at the GP all played rituals, show and tell, and lotus petal, so they could reliabily cast Iona on their first turn. Not only that, but during the tournament I had to face not one, but THREE reanimator decks in my first four matches. Eventually, the winner of the tournament was a reanimator deck, so expect their rise in the following weeks. They aren't actually [u]that bad if you get a first turn, but that day I was specially unlucky with my dice rolls. I ended beating one of them and lost to the others in pretty close matches, so the rest of the tourney became an uphill battle in which I couldn't afford any mistake. From a dismal score of 0-2, I proceeded then to win all my matches until the seventh round of the tournament, in which I lost to color-screw against merfolks, a deck that otherwise shouldn't give me problems.

After dropping, I played some casual games against people that specifically came over to see my deck in action. One of those people even dared me to challenge a person named Merrin which had a cool outfit and looked like a real pro (at least, he started the tournament with 3 byes). Just before leaving, I had the occasion of meeting him and asked him for a match, and he agreed! He also seemed to know my deck, but I unfortunately couldn't recognize his. It was a kind of gwb control deck with tons of removal and goyfs. I won the first game but unfortunately had to leave before we could finish the second.

Forbiddian
03-01-2010, 09:34 PM
Bummer about the 4-3, this seems like a fun deck to play.

Funny enough you said that Dark Ritual was your big scare card, but between Muller and the two top 8s at the 10k, there's only ONE copy of dark ritual. And between the three of them there are TWO copies of Show and Tell (plus Muller had one in the board).

I would look into the Reanimator matchup again if you're convinced that Show and Tell or Dark Ritual are at all central to being successful with this deck.

Ponso
03-01-2010, 10:49 PM
// Lands
1 [APL] Forest (1)
1 [DM] Swamp (1)
4 [B] Bayou
1 [U] Savannah
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [A] Scrubland
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Kavu Predator
4 [NE] Skyshroud Cutter
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [ON] False Cure
4 [MM] Invigorate
4 [NE] Reverent Silence
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Shred Memory
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 4 Chalice of the void
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 2 Krosan grip


I make 3-3 with this one, i like more play the white splash coz make u take less risks i dont sleep so much and i cant play more after lose the 3 match, i think if i have a bit more luck with the pairings i can get a good position.

3 wins: burn (2-0) dragonstompy (2-1) enchantres (2-0)
3 loses: bant progenitus countertop (2-1 all of them)

vs every agro deck i have a really good win%, and vs combo too, i play 8 good cards vs tendrils in main deck (seizes and false cure that makes he die for tendrils) and 8 in sb, extirpate to bug il gotens and mysticals and chalices, dredge isnt hard, some times dont need sb to bet him he need lot of luck for make a good cabal terapy and we can be faster than he, 6 cards in sb vs him, chalice works fine too coz he can side chain of vapor

the deck have really good match ups, i dont like my pairings but i think that i can win with a bit more luck ( one of the bants play submerge in main deck, other one mind harness, that was horrible for me)

Philipp2293
03-02-2010, 03:15 AM
So,what do you set the Chalices to? 1, to avoid swords?

Darksteel
03-02-2010, 04:30 AM
Dr. Jones,

This is probably a dumb question, but why run Chalice of the Void and Berserk at the same time? Isn't Berserk a fundamental part of this deck's kill? Like Philipp2293, I'm assuming you set Chalice at 1 to avoid StP, Duress, and the like.

I've built and have been goldfishing this deck (Well, not recently; cards are at home while I'm at college), and am tempted to play it in the local Legacy tournaments this summer. I was wondering, when using Wild Mongrel, what kind of cards do you pitch to him? I often find I don't really have much of anything left in my hand at all, most of the time.

DrJones
03-02-2010, 07:45 AM
Bummer about the 4-3, this seems like a fun deck to play.

Funny enough you said that Dark Ritual was your big scare card, but between Muller and the two top 8s at the 10k, there's only ONE copy of dark ritual. And between the three of them there are TWO copies of Show and Tell (plus Muller had one in the board).

I would look into the Reanimator matchup again if you're convinced that Show and Tell or Dark Ritual are at all central to being successful with this deck.Well, it's not that I'm scared of dark ritual, but in the decks I faced they sure helped against me. I was going to write a proper report but still haven't got the time. Of 8 games against reanimator decks, I won 3 and lost 5. Here is how I lost four of those:

1st game. I play bayou, quirion ranger and have in my hand 3 invigorate and one false cure (this is a clear 2nd turn win). He then plays underground sea, lotus petal, entomb and reanimate to Iona.

2nd game. I play fetch, he plays fetch. I play chalice at one, he breaks fetch and plays entomb in response to chalice. On his turn, he plays a swamp and exhume to Iona.

3rd game. He goes first. Dark ritual, entomb, exhume Iona.

4th game. I play fetch + lotus petal and chalice at one. He plays a land. I cast tarmogoyf. He plays a land and show and tell for the Iona in his hand. Note that he had no other way to discard Iona because both Thoughtseize and Careful Study cost 1cc.

:tongue:

Ponso
03-02-2010, 08:24 AM
The berserk good point is that gives us a fast kill, the other one havnt time for found responses, anyway if u get a big kavu and he can kill it coz Chalice smash the swords chains brainstorms entombs paths.. and cant play responses for the big creature u dont need berserk coz 1 turn more for kill him isnt really important at that point.

DrJones
03-02-2010, 08:33 AM
Dr. Jones,

This is probably a dumb question, but why run Chalice of the Void and Berserk at the same time? Isn't Berserk a fundamental part of this deck's kill? Like Philipp2293, I'm assuming you set Chalice at 1 to avoid StP, Duress, and the like.I almost always set Chalice at 1, but against ANT, belcher and other decks I know that use Chrome Mox and/or Lotus Petal I can set it at 0 because it hurts them and doesn't slow me at all. Chalice is used to stop the following cards: Ponder, Brainstorm, and Sensei's Divining Top. Those cards don't look as frightening as Swords or duress, but they are used by the best decks in the format to find LANDS and search for answers (with the help of fetchlands) which otherwise would come too late to help. So it's there because decks can be slowed up to three turns or more by playing it. Chalice at one also happens to crush zoo, burn, berserk stompy, elves and other combo decks while leaving me virtually unaffected. It shuts down almost all removal and half of the counterspells that could bring me trouble but that usually only slows down the deck. Lastly, I had 3 free slots in the deck and discovered that devoting slots to protection spells like Vines of Vastwood was worse than playing another "must-be-deal-right-now-or-I-lose" card.

Now to the question of why do I run Chalice of the Void and Berserk at the same time. The reason is that I really don't count on Chalice resolving or staying on board. I don't want to depend on it resolving to win, and I don't think I'll even draw it in half of my games, because I don't run anything to search for them. A bit of Friendly fire isn't bad as long as the fire hurts the opponent a lot more than me, and at this moment Chalice at one negates half the deck of most opponents.


I've built and have been goldfishing this deck (Well, not recently; cards are at home while I'm at college), and am tempted to play it in the local Legacy tournaments this summer. I was wondering, when using Wild Mongrel, what kind of cards do you pitch to him? I often find I don't really have much of anything left in my hand at all, most of the time.Read the first post of this thread for an explanation of Wild Mongrel tactics, and click the link on sample tactics and 2nd turn kills. Mongrel is not good against some decks (burn or canadian, for example), so I usually side in Tempting Wurm in those matches.


The berserk good point is that gives us a fast kill, the other one havnt time for found responses, anyway if u get a big kavu and he can kill it coz Chalice smash the swords chains brainstorms entombs paths.. and cant play responses for the big creature u dont need berserk coz 1 turn more for kill him isnt really important at that point.Don't forget berserk also counts as removal. I played it that way thrice on this tournament on Tarmogoyf, Blazing Archon and that demon with delve. :cool:

Ponso
03-02-2010, 08:54 AM
thats true, well i play swords and no berserk coz it can make lots of damage with out creatures in our table; some of my stp kills:

vs bant in 2š round: Tarmogoyf atacks 3/4 ( sorcery creature and land) i play false cure sac lotus petal and sac perni for 1 killing the hierarch, tarmo pups to 6/7 (instant artifact and enchantment) play invigorate x2 on tarmo ( 6 dmge for the cost with false cure) tarmo 14/15 and cast sword on tarmo for 20 dmge

vs bant in 6š round: he atacks with rhox exalted for 1 noble hierarch, i play false cure and invigorate on him ( 3 dmge for cost) rhox 8/9 i take 8 he heals 8 for lifelink, swords for 8 more and he takes 19 dmge

vs eva depths is really fun just wait with WBB her token and instakill him :P like vs goblins, is really easy kill some one with swords on piledriver

Cane818
03-02-2010, 07:45 PM
Can you explain Tempting Wurm please.

Philipp2293
03-03-2010, 04:23 AM
My personal guess it's a SB choice against decks that don't drop a lot of permanents, e.g. Storm Combo.

DrJones
03-03-2010, 08:50 AM
Tempting Wurm was the result of a long study trying to understand why my deck had a bad pairing against Canadian Threshold. After playing several games I discovered the following:

1. Racing against Canadian Threshold was the worst thing I could do, because Canadian Threshold was designed to fight early starts. Because Canadian has a slow clock, the deck can afford to wait a bit and evade Daze. (I only rush in my first turn if I start, because then they don't have a land for daze, and FoW can break his early game).

2. Canadian Threshold is constantly sculpting his hand with Brainstorm and Ponder, which increases his hand quality by a lot and finds the early land, disruption and/or wastelands. Discard is pretty useless against those cards, but 4 chalice of the void are pretty strong by themselves and can stop Canadian to recover so fast after the "dust settles".

3. While playing against Canadian, we both usually ended in top decking mode. Theoretically, I should do better in that situation because I play less lands and more threats, but in practice most of my losses came at this time. What was happening here? Then I finally realized that my beaters were bad topdecks, while the creatures in Canadian were all awesome. Mongrel is not as hot with an empty hand, Kavu needs life-gaining effects to become big, Putrid leech can be killed in response to gaining +2/+2 and paying 2 life is risky in the late game. All my creatures were at a disadvantage against 3/3 mongoose and 5/6 tarmos. So, I needed to find cheap creatures that could be strong in topdeck mode. Enter again Tarmogoyfs maindeck, and enter Tempting Wurm in the sideboard.

Tempting wurm is a bit like Phyrexian Negator in that its drawback seems too steep to be of any use, but has the potential to be devastating against certain decks. It just happens that Canadian Threshold is one of those decks. The only permanents the opponent could bring to the table in the early game are 1/1 mongooses and 2/3 tarmos, which are too small to deal with this monster. Later wurms are as strong as the first one you play and have essentially no drawback. Note also that "accelerating" the opponent isn't so bad when your clock is miles ahead his, specially in mid-late game when there are few cards in hand and almost anything that could hurt you has already been played.

I used the wurm effectively against canadian, the mirror, ant, burn, and landstill. In the tournament it was the key piece against ANT and Pikula countertop. I think it could be also useful against merfolks, berserk stompy, and zoo, but as I had not enough time to playtest those matches I deemed it too risky to try.

cyberjar
03-03-2010, 12:38 PM
Hello at all,
i want to show to you my version of the deck:

Mana
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Fetchlands
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Critter
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Kavu Predator

Spells
3 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Reverent Silence
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Duress
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 False Cure
4 Vines of Wastwood

I played this deck on a big tournament in Hanau(you might have heard from it) but after a score of 3-3 i dropped out to play some drafts.
There are some differents between my list an the ones that are in this thread.
First: I don's play skyshroud cutter AND Reverent Silence. I don't think thats necessary. You can do it but you don't have to(and by the way, i didn't get any Cutters for this tournament, nobody has them^^). Wich one is better is a metagamequestion. With much Suicide, Pox and other Decks playing edicts or innocent blood cutters are better, if you expect counterbalanca and enchantress, take the silence.
next: Dark Confidant, never play less than 4! It's one of the best card you have in this deck. It takes the opponents removal so that the kavu can attac. And if it not gets removd, the confidant wins.
next:Tarmogoyf: I made the experience, that he grows very fast in this deck. You fetch, you have lotus petal and the opponents do play some cards too.
next: I don't play more creatures, because i want to win with the kavu. Tarmogoyf is just the alternativ plan an can kill fast with berserk(invigorate too, Dark confidant is just to good, but i don't want little creatures in this deck, because they support another strategy the mine.
next:no 4 False cure - sure the card is nice, i think i should play more, but often its useless, i have to test more.
next: duress>chalice i dont't want to counter my own berserk, its so mighty.

Do you think i should prefer the whitesplash to the basics?
Thats a question im asking myself since a few days when i rebuilded that deck.

pls forgive my bad english.

Ponso
03-03-2010, 05:43 PM
I prefer perni over maelstrom coz can kill moongoses and is more usefull agains naya zoo etc.. the white splash.. the swords are really usefull, can kill a canonist, a bloquer, the oponent confidant or tarmo.. and gives lots of lifes, isnt prob splash it with the lotus petals and 2 white dual lands and have great sinergy with the deck and invigorate, maybe are worst if u dont play 4 false cure coz swords and cure was te best choice to kill if u havnt a kavu in the table.

DrJones
03-04-2010, 06:31 PM
I've updated the first post of this thread with my most recent decklist. I hope this update will have better pairings against the rest of the field. Tell me if thoughtseize/faerie macabre are good enough to balance the Reanimator matchup, as I currently don't have too much time to write an updated matchup analysis.

@Ponso: Though I understand that you don't have a strong grasp at english, this site has rules against barely readable english. For this reason, and as a way to improve your legibility, please use "because" instead of "coz", "you" instead of "u", and "problem" instead of "prob".

AggroSteve
03-05-2010, 06:35 AM
hello there,

i'm new here, but this list immideately cougth my inrest

i'd love to play this deck, though i have a problem, i have no access to berserks nor tarmogoyf nor bayou (actually im using overgrown tomb in my other decks, which hurts a lot)

@DrJones, what would you suggest,

my actual list looks like this:


3x verdant catacombs
3x windswepth heath
2x urborg
4x overgrown tomb
1x temple garden
1x godless shrine
3x forest
2x swamp
1x plains

3x putrid leech
4x kavu predator
3x gaddock teeg
4x dark confidant
4x skyshroud cutter

4x swords to plowshares
4x invigorate
4x false cure
3x might of old krosa
2x rancor
4x thoughtsieze
2x rite of consumption

its 61 cards i know, but thats something no one's gonna change my mind about

here are my problem, for which i hope you could give some helping answers

1. i'm way to slow
2. manabase is not stable (due to lack of real duals)
3. discard does not fit in well
4. would love to have more beaters (but which when i havent got goyfs, and would rather not play mongrel cause of carddisadvantage)
5. beaters without berserk get just chup-blockt (sucks)
6. even with swords to plowshares i feel like i've got not enough lifegiving spells, i mean without reverent silence(which i cannot realy play because of gaddock teeg) the combo does not work properly
7. what do you think about gaddock teeg, actually since my built is quite slow he just protects my from sweepers like wrath,... and engineered exploxives, but his body is way to small, any suggestions?

thanks in the meantime

and PS: does someone know to get hands on some cheap tarmogoyfs and berserks , i would appreciate it
(i'm south tyrolian in italy, and its been quite a while since i wrote something in english, so i hope you can forgive my not so good english)

DrJones
03-05-2010, 07:08 AM
Hi, AggroSteve. Putrid Leech is a good replacement of Tarmogoyf if you tune up your deck to play faster, in fact, I didn't play him in earlier versions (I know I'm alone in this, all other people play four). You might want to search eBay and online shops (I don't know if I can post their URL here) for copies of Berserk reprinted in From the Vault: Exiled, as they are considerably cheaper than the ones from unlimited. Here are my suggestions:

1. Play 4 lotus petal and 4 elvish spirit guide. Your clock will improve by one turn.
2. Try to acquire a single revised bayou and 4 land grant. Then test if that configuration lets you play Quirion Ranger and reduce the number of lands in your deck. Also, try to squeeze in two copies of sensei's divining top or sylvan library to stabilize your future draws.
3. See the list of "other cards to consider" in the first post of this thread.
4. If you can't afford goyfs and don't want to play mongrel you only have two options left: Ravaging Riftwurm and Manaplasm. Riftwurm is better if you pack Cabal Therapy as your discard outlet. Then you could also try the new Abyssal Persecutor if you already have them.
5. A friend suggested playing Engineered Plague against chump-blockers, but haven't tried it.
6. You should definitely play Reverent Silence. The only other option you have is refreshing rain (which has sinergy with urborg but doesn't work with gaddock) and Nature's claim. You could try the Ashnod's Transmogrant combo with Nature's Claim.
7. I can't say because I've never tested it. Chalice of the Void, however, has worked really well in my testings.

zabuza
03-08-2010, 02:26 PM
HAve you thought on using TOmbstalker. It has lot of sinergy withh all the deck (specially with mongrel) while shrinks opponentīs tarmogoyf.

Iīm playing three of them and they are very good here.

Beside of that I have several cuestions to ask you:
1. If you are playing against ANT. Could false cure kill him or you need to deal at least two damages before he comboes out to win?? Iīm not sure about it because the sucession of lifes gained lost is little strange.
2. Arbor elf could be a playable option instead of quirion ranger?? Both of them has its pros and cons but arbor let ypu play more lands if needed.
3. What about playing ankh of mishra in the deck? In this scenario the deck must cvhange a lot but i think this deck can support it.

What do you think?

DrJones
03-08-2010, 03:07 PM
HAve you thought on using TOmbstalker. It has lot of sinergy withh all the deck (specially with mongrel) while shrinks opponentīs tarmogoyf.

Iīm playing three of them and they are very good here.

Beside of that I have several cuestions to ask you:
1. If you are playing against ANT. Could false cure kill him or you need to deal at least two damages before he comboes out to win?? Iīm not sure about it because the sucession of lifes gained lost is little strange.
2. Arbor elf could be a playable option instead of quirion ranger?? Both of them has its pros and cons but arbor let ypu play more lands if needed.
3. What about playing ankh of mishra in the deck? In this scenario the deck must cvhange a lot but i think this deck can support it.

What do you think?Tombstalker would work if I didn't played Dark Confidant. I've tested it, but it doesn't work in the stompy approach. In a build like Eva Green he might shine. About your other questions:

1. You can't kill ANT with false cure if he has equal or more life than you. Fortunately, due to Ad Nauseam costing a ton of life that is mostly a non-issue.
2. Arbor Elf is a playable option, but you lose a lot of tricks that only quirion can do; unlike quirion, its ability has "summoning sickness", and the deck doesn't really need that much mana. Might be better if you use a different mana base (or Ankh of Mishra).
3. Ankh de Mishra is great! You can see it already covered in the first post of this thread. It's specially powerful against loam and control decks, but right now I don't feel the need to punish them. So including it in the list is a bit of a meta call. Can replace some berserks if you don't have them. If you use Ankh, try to play 2 land grants to find bayou without taking so much damage.

zabuza
03-09-2010, 07:04 AM
First of all, Iīve the full set of berserks, so donīt worry for it ;).

In fact Iīve been playin a WG stompy shell with predators invigorates and swords. The deck is good and has solutions for everything but i wanted to test something new because this deck with zooīs everywhere is not good now. Then i see The CURE deck and decied to give it a try because it plays some of my favorite cards of the game (predator and berserk ;) ).

After reading your posts I found that this deck improves some bad match ups the mine had like ANT (cure and chalices MD are HUGE).

Iīm, not very sold about others. You said that zoo is a good match up for this deck but I canīt find why. Zoo decks play lot of cheap removal splitted between burn and path/swords and we are playing very few critters. The lifegaining spells usually are not instants (except invigorate) so Kavu will die easily. Our other threats doesnīt trample (if not berseked) so they can chumpblock if needed.

Iīve been testing the deck in MWS and found that:
1) Confidants hurt a lot if you donīt win on the 3 first turns
2) Sometimes we are manascrewed
3) I think the deck need more threats.

I tested a version without confidants (replacing them with Tombstalkers) and worked very fine (because mongrel is the best friend of "tombi") but if opponent can manage your pressure you are dead (because card disadvantage). I was trying to find a replacement of confidant and thought on cold eyed selkie (which is a house with inviogorate) and has evasion ftw. THe only real problem is that it cost three but .... Not sure about it.

What do you think?

PD: Iīm from Spain so first of all sorry for my bad English.BEside of that, if you are from here too we can PM to continue developing the deck if you want to.

DrJones
03-09-2010, 06:36 PM
Iīve been testing the deck in MWS and found that:
1) Confidants hurt a lot if you donīt win on the 3 first turns
2) Sometimes we are manascrewed
3) I think the deck need more threats.

I tested a version without confidants (replacing them with Tombstalkers) and worked very fine (because mongrel is the best friend of "tombi") but if opponent can manage your pressure you are dead (because card disadvantage). I was trying to find a replacement of confidant and thought on cold eyed selkie (which is a house with inviogorate) and has evasion ftw. THe only real problem is that it cost three but .... Not sure about it.

What do you think?

PD: Iīm from Spain so first of all sorry for my bad English.BEside of that, if you are from here too we can PM to continue developing the deck if you want to.Zoo is a good matchup because Chalice at 1 totally crushes it. In addition to that, it only has 4 path to exile as the only removal that matters. Maybe I think I understand what's happening. Arbor elf is a creature that taps to generate mana, while Quirion Ranger is a creature that untaps to generate mana. Arbor elf is far, far less aggresive (Quirion Elf has some 2-turn kills that Arbor elf just can't replicate), plus it cannot untap your big beater so that Zoo can no longer try to race you. It also might be that you aren't attacking as often with Confidant as I do.

Currently the deck packs 10 threats, and I've seen it work with 8. I reduced the number because I thought the four chalices would protect the deck better against removal and counters, and as such I wouldn't need as many. The deck works with 61 cards, so you can easily add a third goyf/Putrid leech if needed.

One thing that it's true, is that the deck isn't as fast as it was in version 1.3. That's because I took out 2 Might of Old Krosa and 1 Berserk from the list. If you want the deck to be real fast, make the following changes to the list: -1 reverent silence, -1 chalice, -2 tarmogoyf, +2 Might of Old Krosa +2 Putrid Leech, + 1 berserk. (you end with a 61-card list).

wcm8
03-09-2010, 07:18 PM
How about using Street Wraith instead of Bob? It's free to play (life loss will usually not matter when your goal is to win by turn 3/4), it won't accidentally cost you 5 life when you top-deck a big CC card, and won't get CB'd like Bob does.

Dark Confidant is great in some situations, but in others I tend to think Wraith or even Night's Wish fare better. Anyone agree/disagree?

zabuza
03-10-2010, 05:39 AM
I was thinking on using signing in blood because it can finish the opponent if needed. COnfidant is good because it will eat the removal opponent plays because card advantage is so good in this mgame, you know. THe problem with confidant is the lifeloss. I was trying to play cold eyed selkie in itīs place because evasion, because itīs green, has not lifeloss and because dodges CB and you can draw lot of cards with invigorate (+ berserk). Iīm going to give them a try, at least. The only problem with selkie is that it cost 3 mana but my deck is playing enough lands i think to effectively cast it.

Actually i like tombstalker in the deck. It provides another great monster to deal with that can be casted in almost anytime.

What do you think??

DrJones
03-11-2010, 05:04 PM
I welcome any idea that could help advancing the deck and making it even better. But if the deck becomes too slow, you'll have to switch the core strategy of the deck. Usually, the faster the build, the better Dark Confidant becomes (and the worse Tarmogoyf becomes).

zabuza
03-12-2010, 06:26 AM
Yes, I know it, but if you want the deck to be so fast then confidant is useless because you are going to draw a couple of cards or less with it. With selkie you have an "evasive" beater that can at least draw the same amount of cards but if you invigorate it you are drawing 5 more cards. Beside of that is green (so itīs castable with more mana sources in your deck) and doesnīt kill you at all. The only problem is its 3 CC but it can be also an advantage against CB. Because the deck has such powerful starting power the draw engine is usually needed after a couple of turns so selkie can be good there. Another advantage is that is a merfolk so lord of atlantis pump it too ;) .

About tombi, i think itīs a good adition here, but its only a preference if you want.

What do you think?

zabuza
03-15-2010, 04:57 AM
Iīve played with this deck a tourney of 20 people past friday.
My list was:

4x verdant catacombs
4x windswepth heath
1x urborg
3x forest
4x Bayou
--16 Lands

4x kavu predator
4x skyshroud cutter
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
3x Cold_Eyed Selkie
3x Tombstalker
--21 creatures

4x invigorate
4x false cure
4x Reverent silence
4x Chalice of the void
4x Lotus Petal
3x Berserk
--23 Spells


SDB
3 x Faerie Macabre
3 x Tormodīs Crypt
3 x Pithing Needle
2 x "destroy target artifact or enchantment. Itīs controller gains 4 life" card ;)
4 x Snuff Out

The first round was against Dream halls. I get a 1-2 here. Bad begining for me, a combo deck which I canīt hate. HE won the first game when he was at 3 life, i won the second (with a 18/18 kavu trampling over progenitus ;) ) because this deck is fast and iīve lost the third. Bad pairing here. Anyways I had good sensations of the deck.

The second round was a Bye (damn it, iīve come to play and test the deck :( )

Third round was against goblins. I won 2-1 (In second round he casted an stingscourger which clean my kavu predator ;) ). Anyways we played 8 games more to fun and i won almost everyone. THis deck is good here.

Fourth round was against canadian and lost 0-2. I played in both games chalice for 1 on the first turn but canīt race my opponent. This is because the deck has lot of dead cards and finally he could recover (he played 2 rushing river and 2 wipe away MD). On second game he played mind harness on my mongrel and after cleaning the chalice played grim lavamancer to kill almost every creature i had (I hadnīt cards in my hand at this time to change colour so :( )

After the tourney i went home thinking the deck is good but needs something more.
The reverent silences are good with kavu but without it they suck. If they were instants probably the thing changes (because you could clean dream halls and so) but without this speed they are not great.

Cutter are not good but are better than silences. Anyways lot of times they are dead cards.

I didnīt play false cure in the complete tourney. they hide away and when draw them i hadnīt any lifegaing spell to play with. Iīm not sure at all about this is the direction to go.

Kavu are great really GREAT. Mongrel is not. I would like to have anything better than it.

Selkie was good, tombstalker were not because sometimes they were dead cards.

i hadnīt mana problems in all the toruney so I think the manabase is right.

What do you think??

DrJones
03-15-2010, 09:19 AM
Wild Mongrel can change colors, did you have an empty hand when your opponent casted Mind Harness?

Edit: Nevermind, I saw that you had an empty hand. Quirion Ranger would have helped here, too.

Against Canadian, the deck needs Tempting Wurm in the sideboard to replace Mongrel.

I've been told this deck could make use of Plunge into Darkness to stabilize the draws.

As a note, it's the first time I hear that dream halls is a bad pairing, I usually just trample over those, but it could also be that I also played thoughtseize in the sideboard in my testings.

AggroSteve
03-16-2010, 08:41 AM
to plunge into darkness, i don't realy now how much life we should pay when playing it, so i cannot imagine how effective it should be, but given you would pay lets say 10 life, you would surely draw one of the combo pieces, but it slows down i think, also i 'm not sure if this is the direction we should go

Yo-hann
04-04-2010, 07:43 AM
The new card Momentus fall is very promissing for at slower version of the deck.. first of you sac the creature as a part of the casting cost, which means it cant be removed in resp. its instant which makes it possible to cast it in response to you opponents removal, and then it still draws you cards.. My only problem is that is a bit of "win more card".

slylie
04-04-2010, 09:46 AM
The new card Momentus fall is very promissing for at slower version of the deck.. first of you sac the creature as a part of the casting cost, which means it cant be removed in resp. its instant which makes it possible to cast it in response to you opponents removal, and then it still draws you cards.. My only problem is that is a bit of "win more card".

It's 4 mana and way too situational.

4eak
04-04-2010, 10:24 AM
Ironically, due to poor eyesight, I initially read the name of the card as "Momentus Fail" -- definitely winmore.




peace,
4eak

Yo-hann
04-04-2010, 12:32 PM
But with cards like Ravagin rift wurm its just plain sick.. It can easily draw you enough cards to kill with false cure, Well i will be testing it, but i must say i run a slow deck with more mana slots.

DrJones
04-05-2010, 10:02 AM
The new card Momentus fall is very promissing for at slower version of the deck.. first of you sac the creature as a part of the casting cost, which means it cant be removed in resp. its instant which makes it possible to cast it in response to you opponents removal, and then it still draws you cards.. My only problem is that is a bit of "win more card".In this deck, I agree, but in Mono Green Chalice Aggro with Blastoderm the card might be the star of the show.

AggroSteve
05-04-2010, 05:34 AM
just had a thought on the composts from the sideboard, wouldn't it be an idea playing em against ANT, the thought was that you could possibly draw about 5 to 7 cards out (not sure though, near me there are stil no ant, only belcher and dredge snce i'm from a small town its not very surprising)of it, so you could possiply find a false cure

just a thought, has anyone tested this allready?

P-AiR
06-15-2010, 11:20 AM
And has anyone tested chrome mox? I've been having some mana troubles.

DrJones
06-15-2010, 01:22 PM
Hi P-AiR!!
Chrome Mox didn't work for me in early tests because it causes too much card disadvantage. Since the inclusion of Chalice of the Void, a group of players have been testing some slower builds with more lands in another forum with mixed success, but all of them are currently happy with its performance. Some ideas have been using Jitte to stabilize, the Dark Depths combo (plus Living Wish), or splashing white for Swords to Plowshares.

Some players have abandoned Berserk. My current list would improve with 2 pump spells and maybe another land. I haven't got the time recently to test new ideas and adapt the list to the current metagame, specially seeing that now the field has more Reanimator decks.

DrJones
07-01-2010, 07:36 AM
I've been gathering ideas to make this deck even better, but I don't have the time to test them yet.

1st idea: Splash red for 2 Rain of Gore and 3-4 Kiln Fiend, it might include also some Lightning Bolts.
2nd idea: Play 2-3 Survival of the Fittest and either 2 Krovikan Horror or Squee, Goblin Nabob to find your combo pieces. They have some synergy with Mongrel and it's true that this deck would benefit of some tutoring effect. This might allow the use of Big Game Hunter either maindeck or in sideboard against Iona.
3rd idea: White splash for swords to plowshares and Knight of the Reliquary, with option for Gaddock Teeg or Qasali Pridemage in the sideboard.

Additional cards to test are Sudden Spoiling in sideboard, the new lich, and some tutoring/draw/library manipulation effects.

Hopo
07-01-2010, 08:01 AM
Is Rain of Gore really a reason for splash? It is very situational, since it doesn't affect your spells which give opponent life. Kiln Fiend is something to be tried, though. It basically doublepumps from each pump spell.

DrJones
07-02-2010, 03:11 PM
I think it's worth trying Rain of Gore as a two-of, while it doesn't work well with the other combo parts, it's also true that sometimes I've dealt the finishing blow with only one of the cards that conform the combo. If it doesn't work, we can wait until they print a Magus of the Cure or something.

Also, as a side note:

http://www.mananation.com/images/m11/leyline_of_punishment.jpg

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Mystical_Jackass
07-02-2010, 03:41 PM
LOL! That's just upsetting to Reverent Silence... very upsetting >.<

Man, I want to try this deck some time. It's one of those that is probably good but not enough people try it. :frown:

Combo Winter
07-02-2010, 09:46 PM
Although the leyline rapes this deck I don't think it will be played much if at all so I wouldn't be worried.

DrJones
07-02-2010, 09:53 PM
It was partly a joke. While the card indeed hates this deck, sometimes it's beneficial. For example, the kill Invigorate + double berserk only has to deal 20 damage instead of 23 if the opponent has the leyline, and the deck already packs 4 reverent silence and 2 krosan grip.

It doesn't worry me, but better not say it loud or WotC will print another hoser that is even more powerful, heh.

Neuad
07-02-2010, 11:56 PM
Fun deck! And if you have Berserks and goyfs it can be really cheap.

3 Thoughtseize
3 Berserk



2 Tarmogoyf
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou


How well would it do without Thoughtseizes SB, and without Berserks? I don't know if I can easily get ahold of ethier of those and without those 2, and having the other 14 listed above this deck costs less then 100 bucks.

Although the one small meaningless change I would make is

-4 Verdant Catacombs
+4 Wooded Foothills, since I would actually have those. . .even though I need to buy my Zendikar fetches.

Combo Winter
07-03-2010, 07:17 AM
You need berserks they are a core part of the combo so I would say don't try to build this deck without berserks which are only about 18-20 anyway so they shouldn't be too hard to get via trades.

DrJones
07-03-2010, 09:43 AM
You can substitute Thoughtseize for any other discard spell without losing too much. I just play Thoughtseize because I already have them, a friend plays instead Cabal Therapy, but he also plays more lands and Abyssal Persecutor, so he can sacrifice Cutters, extra quirion and persecutor if needed.

Berserk is very important if you want the deck to play like a Stompy, because if the deck is not as consistently fast as you can, the deck will play poorly. Another friend took them out because he doesn't like that chalice of the void disables them, and prefers to focus on cards that make CotV better.

Note however, that my build currently lacks 2 pump spells that made berserk much better and has CotV that make them a bit worse, I have to find a way to fix that in the next version of the deck. I also need to find another beater because Goyf is not very good in this deck. Maybe I should try Vampire Hounds? Optimizing decklists is an arduous task.

Neuad
07-03-2010, 11:52 AM
Without reading the entire thread yet, have you thought of Vengevine instead of goyf?

Fuels Wild Mongrel, and if your combo fizzles out or they block the death blow, can result in some fun beaters next turn.

AggroSteve
07-03-2010, 08:04 PM
actually i think thats not that bad of an idea, its in fact a quite funny one, but it requires you to play mongrel at least as a 4 of and needs cutters, and i was usually underwhelmed by mongrel, because he can not allways deal lethal in one blow

i right now am using manaplasma instead of goyf, even if i have goyf, the manaplasmas deal way more damage if you try to combo

DrJones
07-04-2010, 05:23 PM
Totally scrapping the idea of Rain of Gore. Its wording only affects cards giving life to its controller. Well, that's one card I'll not have to test anymore.

Neuad
07-04-2010, 05:35 PM
Now you just splash Blue and get Donate!

AggroSteve
07-09-2010, 01:27 PM
i am right now re-thinking the vengevine - thing, actually it would fit into the deck very well, and it would give me a reason to play mongrel again, only thing is that the decklists would have to be adjusted

if we would go for vengevine we would need more creatures which do not cost us any mana, or at least not much, maybe splashing blue for cloud of fearies, or using a few madness creatures, like rootwalla, or maybe using the opponent as well to get vengevine into play, by playing low-cost-flash-creatures

i don't know, maybe you got better ideas than me

just wanted to post this hear so everybody can think about it, and maybe post their conclusions on the thing here


examples i thought about

Briarhorn
cloud of fearies
basking rootwalla
big game hunter (only working with mongrel, as does vengevine)

these are probably the best creatures suited if anyone wants to try vengevine (IMO briarhorn and big game hunter are the most promising ones)

DrJones
07-09-2010, 05:01 PM
After M11 we could test that idea with Fauna Shaman, as it searchs for free creatures and Kavu Predator and could be the second discard outlet for Vengevine. I'll test Fauna Shaman anyways, as it looks promising.

Mystical_Jackass
07-09-2010, 05:28 PM
T1: Land, Petal. Play Mongrel. Discard Vengevine to pump. Madness Rootwalla into play, return Vengevine & swing for 4.
T2: Land, Pump Rootwalla & swing for 9+ Discard puts opponent down to like 5-7 life.

Man, if there was only a way to start every game like that lol. I dunno how these kinda plays fit into the consistency of the deck though.

AggroSteve
07-09-2010, 10:30 PM
i think it would fit fine, but we could never play vengevine as a 4-off because to make it effective we need mongrel and a creature that does not cost us anything, so these plays will not happen that often, but maybe this could be the way to a new madness deck, actually the BG shell would fit well for a madness deck i think

the problem if we want to fit vengevine into the cure is what to cut for the vengevines and the extra low-cost-creatures

DrJones
07-15-2010, 10:33 AM
I've been testing lately Strength of Lunacy as a black Giant Growth that also gives extra protection from Swords to Plowshares, is great with Wild Mongrel and is not shutted down by Chalice of the Void at 1. While is not as explosive as Might of Old Krosa, I liked the added benefits over Vines of Vastwood in the current test build. The problem is that I'd like to find another discard outlet besides Mongrel that is also cheap and works for auras (Fauna Shaman, for example, only works with creatures).

AggroSteve
07-15-2010, 05:55 PM
i was thinking of adding brairhorn to my list instead of might of old krosa, but that is because i am playing manaplasma, briarhorn are awesome with manaplasma

a discard outlet for noncreature cards would be for example drekavac and thats the only creature i can find right now that can at least a bit support our stompy-strategy
problem with him is that you can discard only noncreature cards, so he sucks as well

but i have to say i like the idea of strength of lunacy, it gives us a bit more consistency, and can help to get our beater through the opponents defense

boxibrown
07-29-2010, 06:30 AM
Cold_Eyed Selkie I like this idea alot. Curious as to dr jones take on it. Also i dont know if this has been said but its late and i could only read like pages 1 and 6-11 so just flame me if im repeating something. If that wurm that you sugested with vanishing is good enough why not like ground breaker baggart ram gang Talara's Battalion?

Oiolosse
07-29-2010, 06:58 AM
Cold_Eyed Selkie I like this idea alot. Curious as to dr jones take on it. Also i dont know if this has been said but its late and i could only read like pages 1 and 6-11 so just flame me if im repeating something. If that wurm that you sugested with vanishing is good enough why not like ground breaker baggart ram gang Talara's Battalion?

Ground Breaker, Boggart Ram Gang, etc are too slow. At that stage in the game this deck needs to be delivering the final blow or setting up to do so. Cold-Eyed Selkie on the other hand could provide some mid, late game gas if need be.

boxibrown
07-29-2010, 07:11 AM
what about autumn's veil that has got to take composts spot on the board right?
What about the elf battalon? it seems like a good finisher and also has trample aready so its a pretty big body and can be played right after a cutter also she seems pretty nuts with vengivine but i think that ruins the core of this deck.

DrJones
07-30-2010, 06:42 AM
For a creature to qualify in this deck as a beater, it has to:

a) either achieve 5 power by itself
b) be big enough in the early game to pass through a 3/4 Tarmogoyf and survive

Autumn's Veil is bad with the mana base I run, because you can tap out one turn to cast a spell that wins you the game against certain decks (compost, choke, etc.), but you cannot leave one mana open every turn. Vines of Vastwood are much better because they double as pump, and yet they don't work well with Chalice of the Void, which is the absolute best card I found to protect yourself from swords, discard, counters, combo, etc.

I wrote a nice list with all card choices available for each slot in the deck, but the light went out in my house and I lost it. For card draw I found that in addition to Cold-eyed selkie, there's sygg, river cutthroat. Also, maybe I should try Glimpse of Nature, it might work with the free creatures.

boxibrown
08-12-2010, 03:57 PM
Avatar of Discord
Arrogant Bloodlord
Ashenmoor Gouger
Death's Shadow
Fallow Wurm
Flesh Reaver
Giant Solifuge
Hunted Wumpus
Iwamori of the Open Fist

I was doing a creature seach and these are what i came up with tell me if you think any of these might be work able. I really dont like goyf every time i play him i find myself wishing that he was better utilized early game. Even when i draw him later he has no evasion to or trample to get through defenses. Im just trying to find options.

DrJones
08-12-2010, 07:17 PM
Avatar of Discord
Arrogant Bloodlord
Ashenmoor Gouger
Death's Shadow
Fallow Wurm
Flesh Reaver
Giant Solifuge
Hunted Wumpus
Iwamori of the Open FistIt's better with card tags. There are a few more options, but they are hidden as enchantments that turn into creatures, reanimation spells, creatures that can turn big under certain conditions (like Vampire Hounds), and such.

I've been testing the deck a bit these days, and so far the card I've been most happy with have been Glimpse of Nature and Plunge into Darkness, specially the last one, I think that card is busted and could pair well with Death's Shadow. I also might replace one Quirion Ranger for one land, too. In this meta, I'd rather play Tempting Wurm than the Wumpus or Iwamori.

DrJones
08-12-2010, 08:50 PM
4 [U] Bayou
1 [TSP] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
3 [OD] Wild Mongrel
4 [PLC] Kavu Predator
4 [NE] Skyshroud Cutter
2 [VI] Quirion Ranger
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [WWK] Death's Shadow

4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [ON] False Cure
3 [U] Berserk
4 [MM] Invigorate
3 [NE] Reverent Silence
3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [FD] Plunge into Darkness
2 [5E] Sylvan Library

Here's a quick list I made to test Death's Shadow instead of Tarmogoyf. Numbers aren't optimal, but in six games against the fishbowl it seemed pretty fast thanks to the extra digging/searching. I would raise the Death's Shadow's count and maybe take out the Wild Mongrel or the chalice to make room for the cards I left out. I haven't tested this list yet against real decks, it's only an idea. The other idea is to replace Death's Shadow by Vampire Hexmage and Sylvan Library by Dark Depths so that there's a "mono-black" kill condition against Iona that is searchable through Plunge.

boxibrown
08-13-2010, 07:26 AM
Instead of library how about mirri's guile (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=9669) that would interact better with bob and Still gets you the card you want

DrJones
08-13-2010, 07:48 AM
Mirri's Guile works as bad as Library with Reverent Silence, and it's always card disadvantage. Btw, I put library in there to LOSE life to make Death's Shadow relevant sooner, but as it's only a quick test it might not be the best card for the spot.

AggroSteve
08-14-2010, 07:10 AM
i think the approach with deaths shadow is quite intresting but my problem with it is that it is way to risky IMO, specially against decks like zoo

but plunge into darkness was on my mind for quite a while now, you could definitely use it to search for the kill, which is awesome, it is somehow just like Ad Nauseum was for storm, spelling "sacrifice life, search for kill"

i was wondering why you dropped putrid leech, it would be a beater for early game that would outsize goyf

i got a serious problem with my deck right now, because i havent got enough money right now to purchase berserks, what would be budget solutions in your opinion

i have to say i like strength of lunacy, its a awesome pairing with mongrel, and it does not actually care for reverent silence because the moment you will be playing silence you will be going for the kill, so it would not matter

thanks

AlterEgo
08-14-2010, 07:36 AM
I haven't found anyone ever suggesting Scryb Ranger.

To me flying, pro-blue, flash and dodging chalice@1 seem like strong arguments compared to Quirion Ranger.

On the other hand, it costs 1 more mana, so you need acceleration in situations, where Quirion would have BEEN that acceleration.

DrJones
08-14-2010, 08:21 AM
i think the approach with deaths shadow is quite intresting but my problem with it is that it is way to risky IMO, specially against decks like zoo

but plunge into darkness was on my mind for quite a while now, you could definitely use it to search for the kill, which is awesome, it is somehow just like Ad Nauseum was for storm, spelling "sacrifice life, search for kill"

i was wondering why you dropped putrid leech, it would be a beater for early game that would outsize goyf

i got a serious problem with my deck right now, because i havent got enough money right now to purchase berserks, what would be budget solutions in your opinion

i have to say i like strength of lunacy, its a awesome pairing with mongrel, and it does not actually care for reverent silence because the moment you will be playing silence you will be going for the kill, so it would not matter

thanksIf you don't have berserk, play Rites of Consumption of Swords to Plowshares. I saw a deck that used Plunge into darkness for Death's Shadow, and then Rites of Consumption for the kill. Rites of Consumption also can be played under Chalice, the problem it has is that it doesn't give trample to your creatures, so for example Elspeth will stop you dead. The other problem is that it doesn't stack as well as berserk, and that the latter was occasionally used as creature removal.


I haven't found anyone ever suggesting Scryb Ranger.
To me flying, pro-blue, flash and dodging chalice@1 seem like strong arguments compared to Quirion Ranger.
On the other hand, it costs 1 more mana, so you need acceleration in situations, where Quirion would have BEEN that acceleration.Scryb Ranger has been suggested in some other forum I visit, from which I took the idea of Plunge into Darkness. To use it, you definitely have to play more land and less accelerators. I haven't tested it because Quirion can kill on turn 2 and Scryb Ranger cannot, but that doesn't mean it's bad.

AggroSteve
08-14-2010, 09:14 AM
oh i did not think of plunge into darkness for deaths shadow and than kill with rite of consumtion, quite funny :D

i was wondering what you would suggest if someone does not want to play a list with chalice main, and has no berserks, i would love to know about your testing with strength of lunacy

i think i will be testing deaths shadow now with plunge into darkness, seems quite funny and efficient to me, also i like the library in there for addictional carddraw

what about wild mongrel, are you still playing him over something else because of the possible 2nd turn kill? or are there other reasons as well?

DrJones
08-14-2010, 09:23 AM
This is my current test list. Only goldfishing so far, but looks promising:


4 [U] Bayou
1 [TSP] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [OD] Wild Mongrel
4 [PLC] Kavu Predator
4 [NE] Skyshroud Cutter
2 [VI] Quirion Ranger
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant

4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [ON] False Cure
3 [U] Berserk
4 [MM] Invigorate
4 [NE] Reverent Silence
3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [MR] Spoils of the Vault
2 [TO] Strength of Lunacy

Strength of Lunacy offers protection against swords and fills the 2 missing slots for pump spells that made the deck 0.7 turns faster back when I played Might of Old Krosa. Spoils of the Vault looks like a cheaper Plunge into Darkness that works well with my stompy approach. Having only 3 berserks and 3 chalice make them a bit risky tutor targets, but I'll keep those numbers for now. The "advantage" of Spoils of the Vault is that it can be played while manascrewed to find the missing land (and I seem to take between 0 and 7 points of damage on average if I name a card that still has 4 copies left in the library).

boxibrown
08-14-2010, 03:11 PM
whats the board look like on that last build. I like that one.

DrJones
08-15-2010, 07:07 AM
There's no sideboard yet for three reasons:

1. I'm currently using the sideboard for testing different cards and quick switch them, and so it currently has +80 cards
2. The current meta is not yet defined, and sb has to be adapted to it for it to be effective.
3. Spoils of the Vault is instant, puts the card directly in hand and is therefore broken, so it might be worth running sb cards that could be casted for free. Mindbreak Trap, Faerie Macabre, the fourth Chalice, Vines of Vastwood, Snuff Out, Reverent Silence, Refreshing Rain or whatever. It needs further tests.

Spoils of the Vault is also a devilsend against 43 lands because the best option against the deck was to use the False Cure path to win and that deck has no clock, so spoils has no disadvantages and can search for the missing pieces.

DrJones
08-15-2010, 11:56 AM
I've casted Spoils of the Vault 36 times so far, and these are the numbers of life I lost in all those tests: 12, 13, 14, 4, 0, 4, 27, 12, 16, 1, 8, 6, 2, 2, 4, 21, 4, 8, 4, 6, 3, 7, 15, 14, 0, 17, 2, 0, 0, 2, 2, 7, 7, 1, 9, 12.

I consider losing more than 15 life a fail (in the "Ad-nausam" fashion), which means it works 36/4 = 90% of time, or 95% against decks that have a slow clock. It's indeed a risky card but very powerful. I've took out one Elvish Spirit Guide for one Swamp for the moment, so that I can do the play Fetch -> swamp -> spoils for bayou. Success means = I won that game.

Something I'm testing now is to crack a fetch to see which cards have most of the copies on the bottom of the deck (or all copies on top), because after shuffling is really unlikely they will remain at that position, and on average might do Spoils less risky.

The question now is if the increased speed and consistency is worth the occasional loss. Would have I lost the game anyways if I had drawn a Tarmogoyf instead of having spoils fizzle?

CorpT
08-15-2010, 12:35 PM
Something I'm testing now is to crack a fetch to see which cards have most of the copies on the bottom of the deck (or all copies on top), because after shuffling is really unlikely they will remain at that position, and on average might do Spoils less risky.

That's not how statistics work. Unless you're not randomizing, you have the same chance before and after shuffle of having copies on the bottom or top of deck.

DrJones
08-15-2010, 01:34 PM
Neither MWS nor live playing have good randomizers, and in the case you can't change the odds, acting as I said won't hurt you either. You are looking at it from a Mathematician's perspective, while I'm an Engineer.

ramanujan
08-15-2010, 01:59 PM
DrJones,

I believe it is a slippery slope to look at things in the manner you do regarding shuffling. If you are seeing a benefit from looking at where the cards you are interested are in relation to the top or bottom of the deck, before "Shuffling", you are cheating. Taking advantage of a not good randomizer would still be cheating. Computers cannot randomize anyway.

Peace

CorpT
08-15-2010, 03:07 PM
DrJones,

I believe it is a slippery slope to look at things in the manner you do regarding shuffling. If you are seeing a benefit from looking at where the cards you are interested are in relation to the top or bottom of the deck, before "Shuffling", you are cheating. Taking advantage of a not good randomizer would still be cheating. Computers cannot randomize anyway.

Peace

It's like people who mana weave between games or matches. There are only two outcomes: sufficient randomization anyway, in which case the mana weave was a complete waste of time. Or, non-sufficient randomization, in which case you're cheating.

boxibrown
08-19-2010, 07:45 AM
Dr. Jones isn't talking about stacking your deck he is simply saying that you need to choose a card with spoils of the vault that has two main characteristics. 1) the card should complete your combo with the cards in your hand. 2) the card should be one you haven't seen in the game yet there for has a high probability of being flipped for a low life loss from Spoils of the vault. I can assure you that Dr. Jones was in no way advocating cheating or stacking your deck in any fashion

CorpT
08-19-2010, 10:37 AM
Dr. Jones isn't talking about stacking your deck he is simply saying that you need to choose a card with spoils of the vault that has two main characteristics. 1) the card should complete your combo with the cards in your hand. 2) the card should be one you haven't seen in the game yet there for has a high probability of being flipped for a low life loss from Spoils of the vault. I can assure you that Dr. Jones was in no way advocating cheating or stacking your deck in any fashion

Then he is wasting his time (and 1 life) by fetching pre-Spoils to look at the cards in his library. Go back and re-read the two possible outcomes: 1) Wasting time 2) Cheating. If he's not cheating (I am not implying or thinking that he is) then he is wasting his time. The position of cards before the shuffle has 0 relation to their position post shuffle if the deck is being properly randomized.

ramanujan
08-19-2010, 04:08 PM
CorpT,

You and I should join a club called "We can do math". Seriously, how many people like boxibrown are going to chime in and declare to the world that they have no idea how probability works.

-Peace

brianw712
08-19-2010, 04:46 PM
Actually, I'm pretty sure what boxibrown said is in accordance with the laws of probability. Basically, what he/she claims is that, if there are 4 copies of card X left in your deck, then you will lose less life on average from Spoils of the Vault than if there are 3 copies of card X left in your deck. Which is true.

ramanujan
08-19-2010, 05:35 PM
"Something I'm testing now is to crack a fetch to see which cards have most of the copies on the bottom of the deck (or all copies on top), because after shuffling is really unlikely they will remain at that position, and on average might do Spoils less risky."-Dr Jones

Just so we get our subject strait. I know that I am looking at this comment when making my responses.

Perhaps I misunderstood something when boxibrown said the following.

"Dr. Jones isn't talking about stacking your deck he is simply saying that you need to choose a card with spoils of the vault that has two main characteristics. 1) the card should complete your combo with the cards in your hand. 2) the card should be one you haven't seen in the game yet there for has a high probability of being flipped for a low life loss from Spoils of the vault. I can assure you that Dr. Jones was in no way advocating cheating or stacking your deck in any fashion "-boxibrown

I interpretted that Boxibrown was defending the position stated by Dr Jones above. It is my opinion that boxibrown is either misrepresenting Dr Jones as his "Interpretation" does not seem consistent with what Dr Jones is saying, or that he does not understand probability as he is supporting an opinion which illustrates a lack of understanding when it comes to probability.

My apologies if you are misrepresenting the statements made by Dr Jones instead of misunderstanding how probability works.

Sims
08-19-2010, 05:52 PM
I don't see this as a form of cheating unless the person in question is specifically shuffling in an attempt to stack your deck.

If you crack a fetch before a spoils and see 3 false curse on the bottom and you shuffle your library, there's a possibility they'll still be on the bottom or far enough out of reach that you'll kill yourself. There's also a possibility that you can shuffle and randomize your deck and have false cure be the first ard you flip. Conversely, It doesn't bother me if they look first because he has an equal chance of screwing himself and shuffling his cures that were near the top to the bottom of his library and kill himself on the spoils. Another reason his looking wouldn't bother me is that in a serious setting i'm not a slouch, i'm going to shuffle my opponents deck before i hand it back. If they can stack their deck in a way that they can predict my shuffling and rig their deck the way they want, hey good for them, they should be making money sharking poker games and not playing magic. Bottom line is, as long as the person is sufficiently shuffling and randomizing their deck, there is no harm (or gain, really) in them looking to see where the cards are in their deck before shuffling.

cyberjar
09-18-2010, 05:08 PM
This is my current test list. Only goldfishing so far, but looks promising:

4 [U] Bayou
1 [TSP] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [OD] Wild Mongrel
4 [PLC] Kavu Predator
4 [NE] Skyshroud Cutter
2 [VI] Quirion Ranger
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant

4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [ON] False Cure
3 [U] Berserk
4 [MM] Invigorate
4 [NE] Reverent Silence
3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [MR] Spoils of the Vault
2 [TO] Strength of Lunacy

Strength of Lunacy offers protection against swords and fills the 2 missing slots for pump spells that made the deck 0.7 turns faster back when I played Might of Old Krosa. Spoils of the Vault looks like a cheaper Plunge into Darkness that works well with my stompy approach. Having only 3 berserks and 3 chalice make them a bit risky tutor targets, but I'll keep those numbers for now. The "advantage" of Spoils of the Vault is that it can be played while manascrewed to find the missing land (and I seem to take between 0 and 7 points of damage on average if I name a card that still has 4 copies left in the library).

Here what i think:
I don't like spoils, especialy with chalice. When i goldfished your version it normaly got me a land for some lifes, Overgrown Tomb would do this to.
What is the advantage of Strenght of Lunacy compared to Vines of Wastwood? Vines of Wastwood can be played with every manasource in your deck, not strenght. And it needs the Wild Mongrel.
What is exactly the reaseon for Quirion Ranger?
Is Wild Mongrel really such a good card?

AggroSteve
09-19-2010, 06:51 AM
dj jones allready posted the reasons for all your answers in some prevoius posts

quirion ranger is for manafixing, and can provide you with a 2 turn-kill (getting BB with just one land for cure without ranger is impossible, and i end up having just one land quite a few times,......IMO it could be replaced with more lands since the 2nd turn kill with ranger happens extremely rarely)

wild mongrel, i did not want to use him first, until dr jones brought strength of lunacy for discussion, and now i absolutely love him, the can provide you with a 2nd turn kill as well, thought you would at least need a berserk and some pump spells for it, and he can take care of a early goyf without dying (another option here would be only putrid leech, which comes zo my mind, since i tried this one before)

strenght of lunacy vs. vines of vastewood: vines are stronger in a more explosive version of the deck, but are countered by chalice and are weaker in defense, since you lose your pumpspell to save your creature from being removed or killed
strenght of lunacy solves part of both problems, it can hinder the opponent to remove the enchanted creature or even save it with madness but manly from the most common removal swords to plowshares and path to exile if playing against zoo, otherwise strenght of lunacy is just a smaller permanent pumpspell that does not get countered by chalice

to spoils i have to say that nether i do like them, i am playing plunge into darkness in their place mainly because it does not get countered by chalice and because i do not have to name the cardi choose, i do not even need to show it, and with an avarage of 7 life i allmost allways find one of the possible kills, but depeding on my lifecount i can use more life as well

the only thing in my list that differs from the one above is that i am using ritual of consumtion instead of berserks, well because i do not own berseks jet, but even thought i have to say that rie is quite usefull on its own because you do not even need to attack to kill

hopefully i described everything you wanted to know, and hopefully i delivered dr. jones thoughts correctly^^ otherwise please correct what i have just written

DrJones
09-22-2010, 01:01 PM
Quirion Ranger is like a llanowar elf that has haste and untaps to give mana rather than the other way around. Allows you to play with less lands and more threats, untaps your beaters to stop the opponent from attacking you and protects against wasteland and other random cards in the meta such as Stasis or Innocent Blood. It's the best accelerator you can play in the deck.

On another news, Scars of Mirrodin will come with a card that looks awesome in this deck, and some others that could be useful, the candidates are:

Tainted Strike B

Instant
Target creature gets +1/+0 and gains infect until end of turn.
"Welcome to perfection"
-Sheoldred, Whispering One.

Example 2nd turn kills enabled by the black berserk:
1. 1st turn: quirion 2nd turn: invigorate, invigorate, tainted strike.
2. 1st turn: Wild mongrel 2nd turn: invigorate, discard hand, tainted strike.
3. 1st turn: Kavu Predator 2nd turn: invigorate, tainted strike.
4. 1st turn: Wild mongrel 2nd turn: land/ESG/petal, tainted strike, berserk (discard rest of hand).

Pros: costs 1, instant, useful on chump blockers, works nicely with mongrel and predator, invigorate and other lifegaining spells have no drawback.
Cons: not useful with false cure, cost 1 (bad with chalice), doesn't give trample, if it doesn't kill in one swoop, you need to draw another one.

Infiltration Lens 1

Artifact - Equipment
Whenever equipped creature becomes blocked by a creature, you may draw two cards.

Equip 1

A fixed skullclamp that makes useful the horrible creatures the deck is forced to pack. Its best friend is of course Wild Mongrel, and partial unblockability is always desirable in a deck with Berserk.

Pros: costs 1, reusable card draw, cheap to equip, stabilizes the deck, good sinergy with mongrel.
Cons: costs 1, doesn't help any of the routes of victory.

Livewire Lash 2

Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature gets +2/+0 and gains "Whenever this creature becomes a target of a spell, this creature deals 2 damage to target creature or player."

Equip 2

This card seems as brutal as jitte. Note that if I cast invigorate or berserk on the equipped creature I get to trigger its ability, too!

Ratchet Bomb 2

Artifact

T: Put a charge counter on Ratchet Bomb.

T, Sacrifice Ratchet Bomb: Destroy each nonland permanent with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Ratchet Bomb.

This card gets rid of chalice of the void when no longer needed, offers protection against certain cards such as counterbalance or dreadnought, also breaks zoo, goblins and merfolks, and it's cost effective in a deck with very few lands.

Plague Stinger 1B

Creature - Insect Horror
Flying

Infect
It leaves its victims one sting closer to phyresis.
Illus. Ryan Pancoast #75/249 1/1

This one is worth testing, but I'm not sure how awesome it could be compared with the other ideas.

AggroSteve
09-22-2010, 03:25 PM
i love the idea of the black berserk, specially since it does not care how many lifepoints the opponent has, the other options are not that obvious choices for this deck, they are awesome cards but not directly made for this deck in my opinion

but i love the idea of lifewire lash together with shuko maybe as an alternativ kill, but it is just an idea and not more

Pneumatiker
09-22-2010, 03:44 PM
but i love the idea of lifewire lash together with shuko maybe as an alternativ kill, but it is just an idea and not more

Hehe, you've made the same mistake like me. My first thoght when I saw Lifewire Lash was: "Wow, a really cool 2-card combo with Nomads en-Kor!" But sadly Lifewire Lash only triggers with spells and not with abilities ...

DrJones
09-22-2010, 06:19 PM
I discovered that Tainted Strike can be used on an opponent's creature to "prevent" its combat damage for one turn. Cool! So far I like it a lot.

AggroSteve
09-22-2010, 07:34 PM
sorry but i do not understand how this should work, can you explain this to me?

DrJones
09-22-2010, 07:47 PM
It's easy. Let's say the opponent doesn't try to win with poison. Then, as long as you don't cast Tainted Strike on a creature that can go bigger than 8 power, you "prevent" its damage by turning its damage into poison counters that don't lower your life total. That play might buy you a turn to live!