[Control Cards] Engineered Explosives And Spell Snare

[Raider Bob]

In doing some research on how to build a better control deck in the Legacy format, and some actual playtesting and debating, it has come clear that Spell Snare and E.Explosives are two of the best control cards in the current format. Explosives in a 3CC deck or a 2CC with a splash for a third is a very clear chice for control players. Spell Snare's power level is not as noticable at first glance. In order to help this debate I pose a basic question in what do you feel the strength or the weakness of these two cards would be in a control based deck?

[zulander]

I believe in the right deck EE can be a powerhouse, and spell snare is pretty amazing especially on the draw. As far as weaknesses I'll split them up.

EE : Doesn't always make a great top deck as far as drawing, playing, and then activating it on the same turn.

Spell Snare : Well, it's drawback is pretty upfront, against decks that run higher cmc's it's not good.

Those are my thoughts on these cards.

[nitewolf9]

I personally like spell snare against 2 cc spells, but it really isn't good against spells that aren't 2 cc. With engineered explosives, it is a good card to have against non-land permanents with converted mana cost equal to what you set the explosives to, but it doesn't hit those that have differing cc. Plus, engineered explosives has sunburst.

[Nihil Credo]

They are both very powerful cards, and I test them in close to any deck that can use them.

However, they are both efficient and narrow answers (EE less so than SS). In a deck like Threshold, that's fine, because you run excellent threats of your own as well as countermagic and Mages, so even if EE and SS aren't enough to keep dangerous stuff off the board on their own, that's a fair price to pay for their insane mana efficiency. But in a control deck (think Landstill), you need to answer nearly everything in order to actually win, and since you plan to make all your land drops it's just not worth it to save one mana on Spell Snare vs. Counterspell when the latter can protect you from a game-winning Armageddon; or to save one mana on EE vs. Pernicious Deed when the latter can clear a board full of Goblins instead of just the Piledrivers.

So, to put it shortly, the less land you run, the better deals SS and EE are.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Engineered Explosives is one of the least mana-efficient cards I have ever seen so many people bust a nut over, especially in a format that is defined by Vial Goblins.

Spell Snare is also awful against Goblins. I'm not impressed with either card.

[Pinder]

I'm not impressed with either card.

While I understand your stance on Spell Snare (which is great against a lot of things, but still not worthy of maindeck space while Goblins is around), but I honestly rather like EE. In any deck with 3 or more colors, it's almost an auto include. I mean, it's not as great as Deed, but as a board sweeper that fits into any color, it doesn't have a lot when it comes to competition. Plus, with EtW tokens running around everywhere nowadays, a 2 mana Wrath in every color can't hurt, no?

[Volt]

NO WAI!


Sorry I had to. Did you actually read what you posted?

I think - no, I hope - he was being sarcastic.

EDIT:
Btw, I like Spell Snare quite a bit. I currently play 3 in MeatHooks. They're weak against Goblins, but that deck can afford a few dead cards against Goblins.

Engineered Explosives is great for killing Chalices and Goblin tokens. It's a good sideboard card.

[Obfuscate Freely]

While I understand your stance on Spell Snare (which is great against a lot of things, but still not worthy of maindeck space while Goblins is around), but I honestly rather like EE. In any deck with 3 or more colors, it's almost an auto include. I mean, it's not as great as Deed, but as a board sweeper that fits into any color, it doesn't have a lot when it comes to competition.
The card destroys things at a specific casting cost. Calling it a "board sweeper" is being a little generous, at least in the context of Legacy, which is to say, in the context of Goblins. The card is basically a 3cc answer to Vial.

It's not as bad against aggro-control decks, but even then you're often paying 4 mana to trade with a Tarmogoyf.


Plus, with EtW tokens running around everywhere nowadays, a 2 mana Wrath in every color can't hurt, no?
I think you're over-stating the actual popularity of decks that use EtW, but I will cede that Explosives is a decent answer to the card, and that it can be considered for sideboard use against those decks. There are usually better alternatives, though.

[Nightmare]

The card destroys things at a specific casting cost. Calling it a "board sweeper" is being a little generous, at least in the context of Legacy, which is to say, in the context of Goblins. The card is basically a 3cc answer to Vial.
It's not as bad against aggro-control decks, but even then you're often paying 4 mana to trade with a Tarmogoyf.
I think you're over-stating the actual popularity of decks that use EtW, but I will cede that Explosives is a decent answer to the card, and that it can be considered for sideboard use against those decks. There are usually better alternatives, though.
Don't you think you're being a bit obtuse in this discussion? Even at a 3cc answer to Vial, it's an answer. Krosan Grip is the same mana cost, but you can't spread it out over 2 turns, and it doesn't blow up any spare Lackeys or Fanatics in the process. Paying 4 mana to trade with T-Goyf is pretty weak, but rare as well. More often, you pay 3 to trade with Goose, which many Control decks otherwise can't deal with at all outside Wrath. I'd much rather pay 3 mana of any color than rely on hitting :2::w::w:. You're also underestimating the amount of Warrens in the metagame. Remember, not everyone plays at the Lucky Frog. TES and Belcher are most definately on the rise, and I'd rather have access to a versatile answer like EE (which is free to play) than a narrow solution like Sandstorm. Destroying half their permanent mana sources with the same answer is icing on the cake.

[n00bas4urus_r3x]

I havn't played with spell snare, so I'll stay away from that. EE on the other hand, is fantastic. While obviously not as powerful as Deed, the card is still amazing. Sometimes the ability to have pin-point destruction instead of a board sweeper is just plain better. Deed to kill Vial is 4, and I don't think anyone is saying Deed is a bad card. With ETW being on the rise, EE just gets that much better too.

[My Name Is Scott]

Don't you think you're being a bit obtuse in this discussion? Even at a 3cc answer to Vial, it's an answer. Krosan Grip is the same mana cost, but you can't spread it out over 2 turns, and it doesn't blow up any spare Lackeys or Fanatics in the process. Paying 4 mana to trade with T-Goyf is pretty weak, but rare as well. More often, you pay 3 to trade with Goose, which many Control decks otherwise can't deal with at all outside Wrath. I'd much rather pay 3 mana of any color than rely on hitting :2::w::w:. You're also underestimating the amount of Warrens in the metagame. Remember, not everyone plays at the Lucky Frog. TES and Belcher are most definately on the rise, and I'd rather have access to a versatile answer like EE (which is free to play) than a narrow solution like Sandstorm. Destroying half their permanent mana sources with the same answer is icing on the cake.
At 3cc it's "still an answer?" Why not just play echoing decay or pyroclasm or a card that isn't absolutely terrible against everything but empty the warrens?

[TheCramp]

My word, there ARE other decks than TES and Goblins out there. I traveled to a friends house this weekend for some very challenging games. I have a UWr control deck I'm testing with three explosives main deck. I played against a zoo deck with tangle wire as back up. (nightmare situation) and EE was the all-star. People play zoo, and explosives is damn fine against it. (look at the winning decks from the last Mana Leak open if you don't think so) Kird apes, Hounds all good targets. Playing against an agro loam deck EE nailed a Mongrel and a Jitte. Meathooks, and I don't know anyone who plays it so this is conjecture, has a problem with EE at 2. Sometimes TES chants you during your upkeep after they make their army. So pyroclasm will fail where if you already have dropped EE at 0 saves you.

It is also worth noting that you can recur EE with academy ruins. furthermore, you can Intuition for EE, academy ruins, and LftL.

[Nightmare]

At 3cc it's "still an answer?" Why not just play echoing decay or pyroclasm or a card that isn't absolutely terrible against everything but empty the warrens?None of those suggestions destroy Aether Vial.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Or chalice. What EE lacks in efficiency it makes up with it's versatility.

[Nihil Credo]

xsockmonkeyx nailed it. Engineered Explosives isn't the backbone of your removal suite, it's your safety net, and a damn good one at that.

[SpikeyMikey]

EE is versatile, but weak, and doesn't answer the fundamental problem of flexible removal for control:

If you're facing mana disruption(i.e. you're playing against aggro), it's ineffective. In a 3c deck, it's arguably better than Keg, although there are times when Keg would be superior, but in a 3c deck, you're not running much if anything in the way of basic lands, and a double waste or waste/port opening can stall EE out 'til it's too late.

When control is powerful, in relation to the format, it runs lots of versatile cards. Reference OS Keeper or Masques/Invasions era T2 control decks. When control is weak, in relation to the rest of the format, it runs cheaper, more focused answers. Reference any T2 control deck in the last few blocks.

Control is currently weak in relation to the format, which to me, suggests that board sweepers, while obviously necessary, should be kept to a minimum, and a sweeper that's more or less crap against the premier aggro deck in the format(Goblins) isn't really worth discussing.

Spell Snare is interesting, but there are very few decks that can afford to main it. It's great against gro and zoo variants, but again, dead against Goblins. If Landstill were stronger, I'd say it'd be worth maining, since it hits 90% of the Gro creatures out there(Grunt/Goyf/Dryad/Bear/Avenger) and would additionally be useful against Landstill, much the way Misdirection was a useful counter in old T1, but I think in the current format, with it's lackluster performance against Gobbos, it'd have to be relegated to the board, and I'm sure I could come up with a better use for the slots against Gro/Zoo in just about any control deck you could build.

[Iranon]

I have to jump on the bandwagon concerning Explosives here... it's not a card that wins you the game, it's a card that prevents you from losing. It's not something you want to draw all the time, but it's a great safety net if you can tutor it up.

It's also a card that can be more powerful than it appears to be at face value. It's trinketmageable, can be recurred with Academy Ruins and used immediately, and it can be a valid tactical tool in decks that otherwise wouldn't run x-for-1s.



Spell Snare isn't bad as such but it's too narrow for the maindeck and not specialised enough for the sideboard.

[outsideangel]

E.E. is better than a disenchant effect, which is what it often functions as in the decks that run it, and would otherwise be unable to deal with stuff like Chalice or Confinement once they it the board. It's better than, say, Krosan Grip. It's also an answer to EtW that any color can run, which I feel is pretty important.

[BreathWeapon]

EE is aggro-control's Pernicious Deed, and against aggro-control it's often a two for one that removes both Tarmogoyf and a Meddling Mage. I think EE is decisive in determining the aggro-control vs aggro-control match ups, where against Threshold it's a two for one, against Fish it's a board sweeper and against Slivers it's either a board sweeper or a complete miss if they are /b for Hibernating Sliver.

Aggro-Control gets to use it as anti-Empty the Warrens, anti-Aggro-Control an answers to Aether Vial, an answer to Chalice of the Void and general removal. The card is almost solving all of aggro-control's conceivable problems in the format by itself.

[hi-val]

Spell Snare is very, very good. I'm becoming more convinced of it. The only problem I can see is that there doesn't seem to be a deck that Snare reliably fits into the maindeck of. Spell Snare is very interesting in that it ameliorates the tempo problem of going second. In an age of Meddling Mages and Tarmogoyfs, I think we'll be seeing a lot more Snares.

[Samshire]

Hey guys, there's another interesting card that's sort of like Spell Snare; Nix. Nix costs only one, and it counters only a few spells in the format and remains dead against lots of other spells. Nix can counter spells such as Force of Will, Daze (which means it's good against Thresh!), Lions Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, cards payed through affinity, unmask, cave in, tormods crypt, chrome mox, Engineered explosives, chalice of the void, land grant. And dispite being good against all these cards it's still an extremely narrow card in the format!

[hi-val]

The difference between Nix and Spell Snare is that practically every deck will have cards at 2cc, where many will have cards they will always pay mana for. I don't see Snare as dead as Nix would be.

[Bardo]

I think it's kinda pointless to talk about these cards without any kind of context. I mean, in the abstract, neither seems particularly good. Spell Snare seems 'cool but narrow,' while Engineered Explosives--as Ob Freely mentions--is a poor deal, guaranteeing that you're paying more to remove threats than it cost your opponent to play them in the first place, if you play it 1-for-1.*

However, I think it's rather silly that every card in every deck should have to pass the "does this beat goblins?" test. Some random [card x], such as maindeck BEB, might give you an edge, but then you just start losing to Salvagers, etc.

Now in Threshold, let's say, I like Spell Snare which while weak against Goblins (only good for Piledriver, Tinkerer, Hooligan, Chalice), does help immensely against some of Thresh's more difficult matches (B/W Confidant and Fish). EE is just so damn flexible that I've enjoyed that card in Threshold for years. It's a disenchant effect, a Chalice sweeper, and a creature killer--though not necessarily an auto-include.

Really though, it comes down to context and what these cards offer in each deck you might put them in.

Edit - *Ideally, with EE, you're trading 2 or 3 for 1--so it's often card advantage.