PDA

View Full Version : [Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 [11]

Gocho
09-25-2008, 06:43 AM
I like it a lot, but Determinad doesn't affect Stifle or Trickbind that is a must in Dreadnought decks. And doesn't stop other combo decks. It's great vs Counterbalance but worse vs everything else.

And I think that the Split Card has CC of 7 because you must count both sides of the card. This is a lot of damage if you draw it with AdN.

Poron
09-25-2008, 07:06 AM
nono I mean only to splash Green, I don't like AdN at all

anyway yes, the problem would be with Stifle/Trickbind...

Bahamuth
09-25-2008, 08:41 AM
nono I mean only to splash Green, I don't like AdN at all

anyway yes, the problem would be with Stifle/Trickbind...

The real problem would be that Determined does nothing against Storm Combo.

Deep6er
09-25-2008, 11:06 AM
1) Determined isn't going to do shit against Counterbalance because that's well within their expected curve to counter.

2) Countering Stifle/Trickbind is irrelevant.

3) Not liking Ad Nauseam isn't reason enough to not test it.

4) Bahamuth is right. The fact that it does nothing against Storm Combo is a big deal.

I've never liked Determined. It's always been terrible for me in testing. Why would you play it now? It just doesn't make sense.

Zinch
09-25-2008, 12:21 PM
Deep6er is right here... determined is terrible against counterbalance...
If you want a substitute for orim's chant that cantrips, play abeyance: it stops storm combo also (neither abeyance not detemined aren't going to do nothing against a counterbalance with their 2 CC)

Pelikanudo
09-26-2008, 06:37 AM
@Deeper :
Well I think that the fact you want a 3 turn kill and once you get it you only will decrease the possibilities of facing a C.B on 3rd turn but honestly this problem yet stays in
I recognize pact is as useless as orims referring to handle c.b but Pact is a little less worse because you can pay the required mana costs on your upkeep helped by rituals, tides , etc, its an oddysee but .. -less useless- as I said
another card I've tested in this place is Snare which is not as bad option..

the third wish I recognize its slow if we want a 3 turn win but Wish is the only way to handle those fuc*** c.b...
Another point I said is that We NEED the opts I think its a must to play in a deck with 18 lands at least 8 cantrips cost 1 and M.Tutor is not one too many mulligans ..

Respect A.N I really think we are not going to have this card longer in Legacy , but by the moment we'll enjoy it, and 'maybe' it won't become banned.

Deep6er
09-26-2008, 10:34 AM
Is the fact that there's a six in my name really that hard to remember? I mean hell, I generally try to spell your name correctly.

Also, I can't actually understand what you're trying to say.

If you could clarify your first sentence, that would be great. I think I get the rest of it, but that first part is boggling me.

Just to clarify things, but it's highly unlikely you'll be able to pay Pact's cost on your upkeep. Especially on two lands. Since you can't cast Reset and all. If you have three lands then any other counter would be better.

I've never been impressed by Spell Snare, and it's of limited usefulness against the newer Ad Nauseam Storm Combo decks (that only play a handful of cards at the two slot that you want to counter).

What you're failing to understand is that a faster win can actually deal with Counterbalance. If you can win before they drop a Counterbalance, you've dealt with it. What I'm trying to propose is finding the fastest, most consistent list and then working on disruption using that as a base. I don't like Mystical Tutor at all. I think the card is awful. However, it's one of the few consistent ways of finding High Tide. Until I find something better, it's looking necessary (for fast wins).

It's difficult to tell if Ad Nauseam will be banned. The card doesn't actually strengthen the Threshold match for any of the Storm Combo decks (as they're going just as "all in" on Ad Nauseam as they did on Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish), and it's applicability outside of Storm Combo is generally broad. Which is what they want. The card could definitely fit into a tweaked build of Landstill, and I've been considering tweaking It's the Fear to fit it in.

The fact that the card is powerful is worrisome, yes, but not an indication on it's banning. It's better to plan for it NOT to get banned, rather than planning/hoping it will get banned.

Zinch
09-26-2008, 10:48 AM
I've been testing more and more the classic version and I found that cryptic command is just too slow... against aggro decks is useless, against counterbalance is realy slow (you need 5 lands in play to avoid daze and even then they have the Fows...) and against chalice, echoing truth is just better... so brainstorming I recall middle the mixture, and I realy like the idea:
1 - Against aggro is just dead like the command (but you can transmute the turn before comboing to find reset, flash or freeze if you need it and can counter a devastating dreams or something like this that can ruin your day)

2 - Against chalice, you can transmute in the third turn and bounce in the 4th like the command, but with the difference that you can go for the combo the same turn as you only have spent 2 mana...

3 - Against counterbalance... well, you just can do nothing without the commands...

4 - Against counters in general is better, because is a hard counterspell for 2 mana, not 4.

5 - AND against storm combo or Ad Nauseam combo is gold (if you reach 2 lands of course...)

The major downside is that transmute is a sorcery-like ability so you must transmute before comboing, but at least is a counter if you draw it during the combo...
I'd suggest -2 cryptic command, -1 opt (I play 4, if you play peek, then -1 peek) ---->+2 middle the mixture, +1 echoing truth


Edit: Ohhh, and why not?? If we cut cryptic command, loosing to counterbalance... we can just play vedalken shackles in the SB: it costs 3 (dodging the CB) and who in the world would be expecting that in teh 2nd match??

jazzykat
09-26-2008, 11:10 AM
After some more testing, I am actually digging Cryptic Command a lot because against the deck beating you down that has FoW and Daze (Threshhold, fishesque, and?) there clock is not as fast as dedicated aggro. NOW, if you are playing against a goyf sligh or something I would be much more concerned by their REB's and then toast your face then I ever would about having cryptic command get countered.

So against UGR Thresh and Rx Beatz I would side them out. Against UGW, UGB, Hanni Fish (If anyone still plays that), Tritons Minions, etc. I would leave it in.

Shimster
09-26-2008, 12:40 PM
3 - Against counterbalance... well, you just can do nothing without the commands...
The only fucking reason Van Phanel plays Cryptic Command is fighting Counterbalance. If there's no Counterbalance in your meta, don't play it.


we can just play vedalken shackles in the SB: it costs 3 (dodging the CB) and who in the world would be expecting that in teh 2nd match??
You need four lands in play to avoid Daze and even then they've got 4 Force of Will. Pretty much your own words, right? :)

And what the hell is the "more classic version"? There are two slots we consider loose (Cryptic Command, Twin Cast, Think Twice, Spell Snare, you name it). Unlike MUC, there aren't two schools of Solidarity.

Zinch
09-26-2008, 12:52 PM
I said "classic version" to avoid confusion with the Ad Nauseam version everyone seems to be testing...:wink:

I see counterbalances in my meta, but not as frequently to dedicate 2 slots from my MD, so I was searching for alternatives... what would you play in a meta full with dragon stompy, eva green, dreadstill and belcher??

Edit: And yes, I know this is not the best meta to play the deck, but is not all my meta, only the hard MU's

Van Phanel
09-26-2008, 06:25 PM
Shackles don't help against Counterbalance. At all. You can steal their 3/4 Goyf and try to win with it while they have CB in play. Good luck with that plan. It might even work sometimes. But how do Shackles help against Nimble Monggose (or Dreadnought)?

You do have the time to get up to five lands against Threshold playing Counterbalance. Also if you know you'll be low on mana, bait their Daze. You have Remand, Impulse and Cunning Wish to do so. Being able to read your opponent is huge here, because sometimes they don't even draw Daze.

@zinch: For your problem-matchups, Command seems custommade. It helps against Dreadstill, is great against Dragon Stompy (which is far from a problem-matchup) as additional answer to Chalice/ 3nisphere and is great against any Deck with discard as well as it can counter a midgame disruption spell and help you get back into the game.

Edit: @shimster: Seems like we have the same user title. Oops. I'll try to think of something new when I have time.

Deep6er
09-26-2008, 06:34 PM
You know, I'd recommend my old one: "Hold on. I have a response." It was rather fitting for me, but I think it would be better for you.

Anyway, has anyone besides me tested Ad Nauseam? I'm really curious if anyone has found other builds besides the one I posted.

Pelikanudo
09-29-2008, 12:12 PM
You know, I'd recommend my old one: "Hold on. I have a response." It was rather fitting for me, but I think it would be better for you.

Anyway, has anyone besides me tested Ad Nauseam? I'm really curious if anyone has found other builds besides the one I posted.

4 High Tide
4 Bubbling Muck

4 Cloud of Faeries
3 Snap
4 Dream's Grip

3 Ideas unbound

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 merchant scroll
1 B.Freeze
1 Turn About
4 Pact of negation

4 Ad Nauseam


4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Watery Grave
4 Underground Sea

This is the deck I've been trying with a turn 3 kill quite consistent buut, this is not Solidarity this is more like Springtide

Deep6er
09-29-2008, 12:27 PM
If you're going to play Spring Tide, Candelabra of Tawnos is a much more efficient untap engine (when combined with Mind Over Matter it's insane, but probably not necessary if you play either Dream's Grip or Toils of Night and Day) that doesn't leave you open to creature removal.

Gocho
09-30-2008, 09:36 AM
A little offtopic, but Candelabra it's only more efficient with four or more islands in play and I think that the idea was 3rd turn kill.

With 3 islands + Candelabra on the board:
Candelabra + Dream's Grip = 4 mana to untap 3 islands
Candelabra + Toils = 6 mana to untap 1+3 islands

In any case:
Turnabout = 4 mana to untap 3 islands.
Cloud or Snap = 2 mana to untap 2 islands.

Creature removal would counter yours Snaps, but in my testing I almost always win without cast any Snap, and use it for my FOWs. It's an emergency untapper, but you usually win without it.

Respect Pelikanudo's list I think that Fow will be better that Pacts because you can FOW CB, Chalice, or any other 2nd turn card, but you can't with Pacts.

Zinch
09-30-2008, 09:48 AM
It's clear that Fow is a thousand times better than pact in every deck but the one they are testing. 4 FoW are a lot of life if you play one Ad Nauseam. But definetly, I think that spring tide has enough draw, Ad Nauseam is redundant (I doubt AN is better than Ides unbound or meditate) its weakness are others...

P.S.: SOrry for the offtopic... If you want to discuss the last dek posted, the place is the Spring Tide thread

Gocho
09-30-2008, 10:55 AM
:eek: I don't see the AdNauseam.
AdNauseam + Fow = :cry:

1maarten1
09-30-2008, 03:09 PM
Can anybody give me a nice list atm?(mono blue :P)

thanks, Maarten

Shimster
09-30-2008, 03:32 PM
I am currently playing Van Phanels list (apart from Impulse and fetchlands, everything's foiled out by now):

// Lands
12 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

// Spells
2 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
2 Cryptic Command
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
3 Opt
1 Peek
3 Remand
4 Reset
3 Turnabout

// Sideboard
1 Brain Freeze
3 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Hydroblast
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
2 Twincast
2 Wipe Away

Counterbalance is by far the best choice in an evolved metagame. I played Spell Snare at first, but never looked back.

Zinch
09-30-2008, 03:43 PM
Can anybody give me a nice list atm?(mono blue :P)

thanks, Maarten

Here you have 39...:tongue:

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Solidarity&format=Legacy

Yan
10-15-2008, 07:33 AM
Hi!

I've been playing solidarity for long time and been reading these forums for almost as long. I had some problems with my account but now that I finally got it, I might aswell just post something... and it has been pretty quiet in here :rolleyes:

So I have been testing quite alot and came to a few conclusions, but...always the list first:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
12 Island

4 Reset
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Remand
3 Turnabout
3 Opt
1 Peek
2 Spell Snare
2 Twincast
2 Brain Freeze

SB atm:

1 Stroke of Genius
1 Rebuild
2 Hydroblast
3 Wipeaway
3 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Flash of Insight
1 Brainfreeze
2 Spell Snare

The first major difference between most of lists is the lack of Flash of Insight. I truly tested it alot but usually I just wasn't happy to draw it, ever. It has it's merits though so I play one in the SB so I can bring it in against slower decks. In my opinion it is just too slow for todays meta game.

Some have played and praised Cryptic Command, I'm not one of them. ...well, I did test with them but they also felt too slow. And I think that it is wrong to say that it can reliably bounce counterbalance. It is true that they can't counter it with counter balance, but hey, they have about 10 other counters too so don't expect them to let it through. Wipe Away and Grosan Grip are probably the only reliable ways to get rid of the balance. And countering it with Spell Snare is an option too, atleast it will eat one of their counters.

I have always liked Twincast because, like some have said, it is some kind of joker. And twincasting meditate is just sick card advantage, and after that got through, I have never lost.

Then there is no turnabout in the SB :eek: but honestly, I never sided it in or wished for it, NEVER. So I thought that why would I keep there if never used it... I could aswell have my foil one with nothing there, atleast it would look cooler...

Some might considet me as a heretic because of not plaing flash of insight but at least it have worked for me so I quess I just wanted to point out that the if someone doesn't like flash, the deck can be well playd without it too :)
Honestly, if there's some trick with it that I don't know of, I'm open for it. The "brain freeze yourself and arrange the rest of your library" is just too damn slow and you probably would have won anyway at that point. Usually flash just sit in my hand without no way of discarding it.

I have tournament coming soon and I might play solidarity there, if I do, I report the results.

Bahamuth
10-15-2008, 09:33 AM
Hi!

I've been playing solidarity for long time and been reading these forums for almost as long. I had some problems with my account but now that I finally got it, I might aswell just post something... and it has been pretty quiet in here :rolleyes:

So I have been testing quite alot and came to a few conclusions, but...always the list first:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
12 Island

4 Reset
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Remand
3 Turnabout
3 Opt
1 Peek
2 Spell Snare
2 Twincast
2 Brain Freeze

SB atm:

1 Stroke of Genius
1 Rebuild
2 Hydroblast
3 Wipeaway
3 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Flash of Insight
1 Brainfreeze
2 Spell Snare

The first major difference between most of lists is the lack of Flash of Insight. I truly tested it alot but usually I just wasn't happy to draw it, ever. It has it's merits though so I play one in the SB so I can bring it in against slower decks. In my opinion it is just too slow for todays meta game.

Some have played and praised Cryptic Command, I'm not one of them. ...well, I did test with them but they also felt too slow. And I think that it is wrong to say that it can reliably bounce counterbalance. It is true that they can't counter it with counter balance, but hey, they have about 10 other counters too so don't expect them to let it through. Wipe Away and Grosan Grip are probably the only reliable ways to get rid of the balance. And countering it with Spell Snare is an option too, atleast it will eat one of their counters.

I have always liked Twincast because, like some have said, it is some kind of joker. And twincasting meditate is just sick card advantage, and after that got through, I have never lost.

Then there is no turnabout in the SB :eek: but honestly, I never sided it in or wished for it, NEVER. So I thought that why would I keep there if never used it... I could aswell have my foil one with nothing there, atleast it would look cooler...

Some might considet me as a heretic because of not plaing flash of insight but at least it have worked for me so I quess I just wanted to point out that the if someone doesn't like flash, the deck can be well playd without it too :)
Honestly, if there's some trick with it that I don't know of, I'm open for it. The "brain freeze yourself and arrange the rest of your library" is just too damn slow and you probably would have won anyway at that point. Usually flash just sit in my hand without no way of discarding it.

I have tournament coming soon and I might play solidarity there, if I do, I report the results.

The reason why people like Cryptic Command is the versatility it offers. The most important factor is that it is, unlike Spell Snare, not completely dead in mid combo, and can actually be quite important there. Spell Snare is completely dead in mid combo, but also if you draw one after the CB hits.

I love Flash of Insight, but I do agree it sucks against some decks. I really can't imagine you hated drawing it every time you did though. The card shines in Thresh matchups or against any control deck. I also quite often manage to play it in any matchup where I need to be a bit faster. Adding the Brain Freeze synergy (which i use quite a lot (be sure to remember the bottom cards with Impulse/earlier Flashes)) makes it irreplaceable for me.

I like my Turnabout sideboard, and I wish for it quite a lot. If you don't play it, why won't you put an extra one in the mainboard?

Pelikanudo
10-15-2008, 11:27 AM
Question: will 4 pact of negation in side will help to handle those 3shold decks?
Has anybody tryed them ?
I think that if we have a posted list like this we can easily win whatever 3shold match up( balanced, tempo, etc):

4 Tides
4 resets
3 turnabout
3 meditate

4 FoW
4 pacts
4 snares

4 brainstorm
2 brainfreeze
4 opt
2 cunnin wish
2 wipeaway
2 Flash of insitgh // in here maybe the impulse could be an option

18 lands

No remand or Impulses all of them sided out
Ideas, Suggestions, Onions?

Zinch
10-15-2008, 05:11 PM
I think that without impulses you won't find tides reliably...
And without remands, you need a storm of 16-18, an extremely hard thing to accomplish against thresh, the match up you are trying to improve...
This, and the large number of useless cards midcombo makes this list very, very unreliable.

Bahamuth
10-15-2008, 05:27 PM
Also, that list has no reliable answers against CB.

Zinch
10-15-2008, 05:48 PM
Also, that list has no reliable answers against CB.

Well, I'm not defending that list, but if a thing a deck with 4 spell snares, 4 fows, 2 wipe away and 2 cunning wishes can do is answer a counterbalance.
But I believe that this deck cannot afford to play all of this cards only to answer one card...

Omega
10-15-2008, 05:56 PM
CB is probably the main reason why Solidarity is no longer a tier deck. If you can't get rid of CB, you probably are not going to win the game, so i think it is not overkill to dedicate so much slots against that card. Solidarity is Control/Combo after all.

Robert

Yan
10-16-2008, 11:45 AM
Spell Snare is dead mid combo, yes. And it can't answers a resolved CB. These are both true but I wasn't saying that it is there entirely against CB. Counterbalance is not the only thing that costs two :wink: And honestly, if you have time to use Cryptic Command, you probably would have won anyway. It is just 1 mana too expensive.

Everytime that I had cryotic command against balanced thresh, and tried to remove balance with it, they had at least two counters against it, it is not realistic to think that they can't counter it. It is truly versatile but I think that it is only good on paper. It is only good in late game but we won't be able to get there with early game "dead cards." I think that we have to take in to consideration that the format is really fast nowadays, we just don't have time to do all those cool and expensive things. Same goes IMO for the flash of insight. Mid combo, twincasting a meditate is just as good or even better.
Flash is good against control decks but aren't those good match upps anyway, even without it? With twincast, comboing on turn 4 just becomes more reliable.

7 untap effect seems to be enough for me MD, but if I regret removing turnabout from the SB even once, it goes back in right away :smile:

Shimster
10-18-2008, 03:39 AM
And honestly, if you have time to use Cryptic Command, you probably would have won anyway. It is just 1 mana too expensive.

Everytime that I had cryotic command against balanced thresh, and tried to remove balance with it, they had at least two counters against it, it is not realistic to think that they can't counter it.
Wrong. Absolutely wrong. Balanced Thresh (at least good lists) uses 4 Daze, 4 Force of Will and 3 to 4 Counterbalance as its countersuit. You only have to worry about the Forces, as you can play around Daze easily.

Against fast aggro, you can often win by using your Turnabouts to generate mana and using Cryptic Command to fog your opponents creatures. Without Cryptic Command, I would have lost several matches against Goblins (as they tend to win on turn 4 while on the play).

Cryptic Command is not slow. And yes, you are going to win, if it resolves targeting Counterbalance. But that's the reason, Simon, Rob and me are running it. :smile:

/edit:

btw., did you play Solidarity competitively? Flash of Insight says "OMNOMNOM, eat instants, SYNERGY!" You often can't win without Flash of Insight (e.g. you played Stroke of Genius to draw cards but you have to win NOW). If you cut it, you can cut Cunning Wish in the same breath.

Yan
10-18-2008, 04:09 AM
Wrong. Absolutely wrong. Balanced Thresh (at least good lists) uses 4 Daze, 4 Force of Will and 3 to 4 Counterbalance as its countersuit. You only have to worry about the Forces, as you can play around Daze easily.

Against fast aggro, you can often win by using your Turnabouts to generate mana and using Cryptic Command to fog your opponents creatures. Without Cryptic Command, I would have lost several matches against Goblins (as they tend to win on turn 4 while on the play).

Cryptic Command is not slow. And yes, you are going to win, if it resolves targeting Counterbalance. But that's the reason, Simon, Rob and me are running it. :smile:

/edit:

btw., did you play Solidarity competitively? Flash of Insight says "OMNOMNOM, eat instants, SYNERGY!" You often can't win without Flash of Insight (e.g. you played Stroke of Genius to draw cards but you have to win NOW). If you cut it, you can cut Cunning Wish in the same breath.

oh, so much thanks for welcoming. people like you just make my day :laugh: If I haven't seriously tested what I said, I wouldn't have said it, because I honestly respect all of your testing too.

but against the balanced thresh... 5th turn is the earliest you can try to play around daze with cryptic command, and 5th turn is usually too late. what if they have 2? or FoW also? If you don't have a clock ticking on your face, then by all means command is superior to everything else. I'm just saying that I don't like it, atleast not in my current meta and it certainly is not an auto include.

About flash, I wont even bother. I don't like it, it didn't work for me. If it works for everyone else, it's just great. I was just merely pointing other possibilities for the deck to go... but I quess the atmosphere is too religious for the origin, to accept anything that is a little different :smile:

Shimster
10-18-2008, 04:51 AM
Sorry for being harsh, but I'd to wake up too early this morning. Really ... :laugh:

The balanced Thresh MU is mostly statistics. If they've got 2 FoW with pitch cards on turn 5 (in addition to Daze), they don't have that much of a clock. I played against UBg fish (Vintage version) last tournament and won, even though he had got Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance. Why did I win? Because he could not counter my Cryptic Command. The second game, I won through Daze, Force of Will and 2 Spellstutter Sprite, in response to a Duress because he had absolutely no clock (apart from 1 Spellstutter Sprite).

As you can see, Aggro Control is very predictable. Either they've got a clock and less to no counterspells or they've got an ass full of disruption, but no clock.

Bahamuth
10-18-2008, 05:56 AM
Sorry for being harsh, but I'd to wake up too early this morning. Really ... :laugh:

The balanced Thresh MU is mostly statistics. If they've got 2 FoW with pitch cards on turn 5 (in addition to Daze), they don't have that much of a clock. I played against UBg fish (Vintage version) last tournament and won, even though he had got Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance. Why did I win? Because he could not counter my Cryptic Command. The second game, I won through Daze, Force of Will and 2 Spellstutter Sprite, in response to a Duress because he had absolutely no clock (apart from 1 Spellstutter Sprite).

As you can see, Aggro Control is very predictable. Either they've got a clock and less to no counterspells or they've got an ass full of disruption, but no clock.

Yea, this idea about Thresh is generally right. It's just that there are those decks that run both Counterbalance and Confidant. In that case, they can easily have both. If Confidant is not dealt with early enough (by either countering it or trying to win), they can easily overwhelm you with too many counters.

Fuck Confidant...

Van Phanel
10-21-2008, 01:54 PM
@Yan:
- If you get to five Islands (and if they have Counter-Top, they don't have a clock, so you likely will) Cryptic Command can get rid of Counterbalance.

Compare: Threshold playing Counterbalance has 4 Force of Will where you have Force of Will as well and 3 Cunning Wish and 2 Cryptic Command. Chances are that you will be able to bounce their Counterbalance.

- The Brain Freeze yourself is not something to rely upon. See it as one of a gazillion possibilities that Solidarity offers. Don't do it if it isn't necessary, but having the possibility is cool. I think Brain Freezing myself (for Flash of Insight) comes up around once every 10-15 games (Edit: After some thinking, I'd rather say about every 20 games) and it works in about 8 of 10 cases.

Even more important is that Flash of Insight is a way to produce actual cardadvantage without skipping a turn. It will also likely work under Counter-Top.

- Not playing Turnabout side seems really strange, I'd say that you will probably regret this soon. Meditate is the only card I wish more often.



CB is probably the main reason why Solidarity is no longer a tier deck. If you can't get rid of CB, you probably are not going to win the game, so i think it is not overkill to dedicate so much slots against that card. Solidarity is Control/Combo after all.

Wrong. The reason why Solidarity isn't a tier deck is the fact that it is very hard to play and so rarely played.

You have to be able to deal with Counterbalance, that's correct. But a Counterbalance is no problem on it's own and thus can be overcome. They still need SDT, Counters and a serious clock in order to win.


@Pelikanudo: Your list will likely be able to deal with Counterbalance. Goblins or any aggrodeck will demolish you though as you are likely going to fizzle because of bad Meditates. Pact of Negation just doesn't work in Solidarity as it cannot be used as a defensive tool (at least not mainboard).



That said, I played the 108-man sideevent at GP Paris. Unfortunately, no Top8 were played. My mainboard stayed the same as above (Edit: actually better look below), while I changed my sideboard:

1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
3 Wipe Away (I am never sure if two or three are the correct number)
2 Echoing Truth
3 Twincast (expected quite some Ad Nauseam)
2 Hydroblast
1 Rebuild
1 Mystical Tutor (just for testing, but I like it so far as it replaces the third Echoing Truth against ETW)

Round 1 against Benjamin (White Stax)

He starts game 1 with a Ghostly Prison and can't fnd his fourth mana. When he does and goes for Armageddon on turn four I Remand it and when he replays it, I go off.

He starts g2 with a Chalice/1 and a Trinisphere. I force the 3Sphere as I have two lands and two Remand. His Magus resolves and he beats for two turns with it and a Factory while I get to Wish for Rebuild. He gets another Trinisphere into play. When he goes for Ravages of War I Remand it twice and then Rebuild in response and FoW it. He can't replay his Chalice as he lacks the mana and is dead a turn later.

A question to you guys: when I went off in G2, I had five Islands and the following hand: High Tide, Wish, Meditate, Remand (no relevant card rfg). I decided to play High Tide, Wish for Turnabout, Turnabout, Meditate, while I could also have gone for the Meditate before the Wish. That would have increased the likeliness to win if I'd be able to find and play an untap with the five mana I had left, while also increasing the likeliness to lose if I don't find one. Which road would you have taken?

1-0-0


Round 2 against Benoit (U-W-B balanced Fish)

He gets an early Meddling Mage on Brain Freeze into play and together with a Grunt attacks me to low life. The Grunt dies but I still have to go off. I don't find a second untap and fizzle.

In G2 he gets some early Grunt-beats and a Meddling Mage on Brain Freeze again. This makes my job pretty doable but I could easily have bounced it precombo had it named High Tide. When I am midcombo, I have a lot of Mana, Cunning Wish and Brain Freeze available I just Brain Freze him and he scoops. Only when we pack our cards we realize that the Mage had still been in play. The game can't be backed up so I still get to win it (I didn't sleep too well and thus wasn't concentrated enough).

As those games had taken rather long, we can't finish a third game in time and draw.

1-0-1


Round 3 against Thibault (Faerie Stompy)

In game 1 he gets an early Chalice on one and two and adds a 4/4 Cloud of Faeries (thanks to Sigil of Distinction). Before he'd kill me I try to Command his Chalice1 back to his hand but when he Forces I can't Force back (because I'm on only one life).

In game 2 Thibault starts with turn 1 and 2 Sea Drake. When I Echoing Truth them both he looks pretty unhappy and this gives me enough time to bounce his Chalice/1 with Command and win the game.

In game 3 he mulls to five and I have all the time in the world to properly set up.

2-0-1


Round 4 against Mathias (U-W-b Faeries)

In game 1 he gets a Jotun Grunt, Stifles it once but it doesn't go the distance. When he fails to counter more than two times in response to a Meddling Mage, he is dead.

An early Bitterblossom and two Meddling Mages on High Tide and Cunning Wish make my life pretty hard. When I try to go off on six lands anyway he can stillcounter twice where once would have been enough.

I get to peek him in g3 and he has no pressure but a Grunt. It can survive two upkeeps and he Stifles it three times in a row to have it go the distance. Before he attacks one last time, I go for the combo and he can only counter twice. Twincast still gets an untap for me and I win without any further resistance.

3-0-1

Round 5 against Cyril (U-W Landstill)

In game one I go off in response to an eot Fact or Fiction that leaves him tapped out. He tries to FoW my High Tide, but I can FoW back and he has nothing left to stop me.

In game 2 he has Enlightened Tutor for Rule of Law which I don't mind at all as I get to Wish for Wipe Away in my mainphase. He gets some beats in with a Faerie Conclave and I play some cantrips until I bounce his Rule of Law when I have eight lands in play. When he replays it on his next turn we get into one of those epic stackwars that sometimes happen in this matchup. He can counter four times but as he chooses to let my untaps resolve and counter my business spells, I can resolve a Flash of Insight for 1, flashback it, find a Brain Freeze and deck him.

Stack Wars (http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp359/van_phanel/PA190008-1.jpg) (I'm just looking through my graveyard to count blue cards for Flash while a judge took that picture)


4-0-1


Round 6 against Sebastien (It's the fear)

Sebastien comes late and gets a gameloss. We start with the second game and he resolves an early Counterbalance (without SDT though). I only lose one cantrip to CB and get to build up for Cryptic Command he counters, I counter back and he counters again. When I try for Cunning Wish a turn later he has another Counter and as he has found SDT in the meantime, his 2 Tarmogoyf get to kill me.

For game two he doesn't have Counterbalance early and I get to sculpt a hand with lots of untaps but only a Meditate as carddraw. In response to his Counterbalance I go for it with six lands in play. He lets my High Tide resolve and tries to counter the following Reset. I Reset again and he tries to counter again. When I have Turnabout as well he has no answers left and I get to kill him thanks to a good Meditate.

5-0-1


Round 7 against Jean-Mary (Lifecombo with blue for Meddling Mage and black for Doran).

I've seen him play before and know that I'll have a hard time in this matchup as he plays 11 copies of Meddling Mage main (3 Mage, 4 Eladarmi's Call, 4 Living Wish), as well as 4 AEther Vial. In game one he gets an early Vial and as he has two available Meddling Mages he names Cunning Wish and Brain Freeze believing that he locked me out. When I don't concede right away, he seems surprised and then says something about a list with Cryptic Command he has seen somewhere on the internet. I go off, bounce the Mage on Wish and combo on. When he activates his Vial on 2 I have both Cryptic Command and Cunning Wish ready to deal with it, so I let the Vial activation resolve. He names Command, I wish for Echoing Truth and Brain Freeze him to death.

In game 2 he gets two Mages that both name High Tide. Unfortunately I neither find my boarded Echoing Truth, nor Cunning Wish, nor a fourth land that would have allowed me to play Cryptic Command. His Mages kill me in short order.

Game 3 his draw was pretty insane. On turn 4 his board looks like this:

3 land, Mother of Runes (active), Meddling Mage (High Tide), Meddling Mage (High Tide), Gaddock Teeg, Vial (2 counters). I have five Islands in play and try to go for it one turn later with Reset and Meditate as I am already on low life but I just don't have enough mana to deal with the Mother of Runes-protected army of annoying combo-stoppers.

5-1-1

This is enough for 8th place which is not too bad at a 108-man event. Still I would have preferred the chance to play top8. Unfortunately there wasn't enough time for that as the room had to be left a short time after the swiss rounds. Stupid GP sideevents... A friend also placed third with TES (6-1) so the tournament was pretty succesful for us.

I'm sorry if the report isn't very detailed, but I only took few notes as I had to focus on playing most of the time.

- Van

PS: Sorry about the delay with the primer. Between my computer being down, university killing me and Extended testing, I just couldn't find time to finish it. I'll try to do so as soon as possible, but likely this will be only after PT Berlin.

jazzykat
10-21-2008, 02:19 PM
@Van: To win through CB and chalices and FOW all day...you are the man! Congratulations on a very well earned top 8.

badjuju
10-21-2008, 07:31 PM
@ Van Phanel

First off, grats on the finish again!

Sorry, but could I find your list somewhere? You stated that it's the "same as above", but I've sifted back several pages and still couldn't find it.

Van Phanel
10-21-2008, 07:46 PM
Oops, sorry. Seems that I haven't posted it here lately.

Anyway, here it is:



3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
12 Island

4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
3 Opt
1 Peek
4 Reset
4 Impulse
3 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
2 Cryptic Command
4 Force of Will
2 Flash of Insight

The sideboard varies and I currently only see Stroke, Meditate and Turnabout as fixed slots. Some bounce will likely always be necessary but which and how many depends on the tournament.

klaus
10-22-2008, 04:10 AM
Gratz, Van!

Looks like there wasn't a single game in which you casted 2 Wipe Aways.
Judging from that 2 (not 3) seems to be the perfect number, huh?

Gocho
10-22-2008, 05:25 AM
With 3 Wipe Aways you can put two MB and still have the other one in SB to Wish for it.

Van Phanel
10-22-2008, 06:42 AM
Looks like there wasn't a single game in which you casted 2 Wipe Aways.
Judging from that 2 (not 3) seems to be the perfect number, huh?

Well, not quite. Boarding two makes it more likely to draw one without having to Wish for it.

herbigtoo
10-23-2008, 12:46 AM
I'll get my brother in here to set the record straight.

Frid
11-04-2008, 07:01 AM
Would you play solidarity in a meta like this?

Meta Breakdown
-------------------
Landstill/Land Control: 5
Goblins: 4
Survival: 2
Belcher: 2
Sligh: 2
Affinity: 2
Ichorid: 2
Slivers:2
Dreadstill: 2
Better Than Threshold: 2
Monoblack: 2
Dragon stompy: 1
Aggroloam: 1
The Rock: 1
Burn: 1
Madness: 1
White Weenie: 1
Draw'n'go: 1
Ad Nauseam Tendrils: 1
Moon 3hold: 1
Extasis: 1
Stompy: 1
RG: 1
Intuition Control: 1
Scepter Control: 1

Any sideboard ideas?

Omega
11-04-2008, 08:36 AM
Yes, this metagame lacks Counterbalance and doesnt look too fast.

Without pressure, you should be able to win against slow Landstill.

There are 3 combos that are faster than you (ANT and 2 belcher) But you have protection spell. If you play wisely, i think you can beat them

For SB, I would say that you should get some artifact hate for Affinity and Stompy deck.
You need Hydroblast for goblin, and those stompies

Some Wipe away in your bounce package for CB

but i am no pro with this deck, perhaps someone can help you better

Robert

Bahamuth
11-04-2008, 09:06 AM
Absolutely. The only deck you cannot consistently beat is Thresh in that list, and even that is only when they run both CB and Confidant. AdN is about even (a little favoured for them), but if you play some Twincasts SB (and you should because of the landstill) you should have a good chance.

lebarion
11-04-2008, 12:38 PM
Although the metagame looks good for Solidarity, there are a few matches that can cause problems.
Besides the already mentioned Thresh and Ad-Nauseam, Dreadstill will cause problems, and MonoBlack and Slivers too, depending on what they run.

Twincast is great in the sideboard agaist counterspell, Ad Nauseam and Monoblack. Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall is good against Scepter control, Affinity and Dragon Stompy, and BEB helps you against Goblins.

Bahamuth
11-04-2008, 12:43 PM
Although the metagame looks good for Solidarity, there are a few matches that can cause problems.
Besides the already mentioned Thresh and Ad-Nauseam, Dreadstill will cause problems, and MonoBlack and Slivers too, depending on what they run.

Twincast is great in the sideboard agaist counterspell, Ad Nauseam and Monoblack. Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall is good against Scepter control, Affinity and Dragon Stompy, and BEB helps you against Goblins.

Oh, I didn't spot the Dreadstill in there. Yea, that deck is a big problem. Fortunately, not many people play that deck around here, so I haven't tested it nearly enough. I'd think boarding in bounce spells (Wipe & Truth) would be pretty good. Grip would be ideal if it weren't for the Wastelands.

Frid
11-04-2008, 01:40 PM
I will try solidarity on the next league (we make one big tournament every month in my city we call them league) i was on of those landstill players but im getting bored of it.

Thx for your help

Zinch
11-09-2008, 06:15 AM
You're welcome to the solidarity comunity...:wink:

Has anyone tried a 19 lands configuration? I know that lands are dead draws in mid combo, but I'm tired of not finding the 4th (or even the 3rd) land before combo. Maybe 19 lands with 8 fetchlands is a good option...

Shimster
11-09-2008, 08:57 AM
In a meta full of landdestruction (decks like Graboids), you could possibly fill the two open slots with basic islands.

Playing more then 6 fetchlands is absolutely not recommended, as getting them stifled is a really devastating move.

Jade
11-18-2008, 08:10 PM
Hey Guys

It has been I while since I played this deck. Could you give me an overview of our match-ups? It feels like we got a looong list of bad MUs....
I was able to test against:

Belcher (never lost, but I had to keep many hands with Force and no lands. reasonable?)
Eva-Green (no chances of winning this one)
Team America (quite bad, but sometimes they don't get a clock)
Armageddon Staxx (lost nearly every game, but i think this MU should be better... I just let everything resolve and focus on countering Armageddons and Smokestacks. Doin' it right? How about other
staxxish decks?)
Burn (think this one is about 40% as I have to go off fast + have to Stroke him most of the time.)

From random-games on MWS (the ones with competent players, I wont count that Thallid-deck...) I found out that ITF isn't as bad as it looks and ANT and TES should be doable as well. I also beat Ichorid and I felt quite comfortable against his 20-card library. Allthough I must admit I dont know how high the chances are that TES/ANT/Ichorid wins turn 1-3 against a Force, I only played a 2/3sb each. Fortunately I never faced a Dreadstill so far, but as I heard this one is close to an autoloss...?

Many thanks for any inputs and savage tech against these decks.

greetings

Bahamuth
11-19-2008, 01:29 AM
Hey Guys

It has been I while since I played this deck. Could you give me an overview of our match-ups? It feels like we got a looong list of bad MUs....
I was able to test against:

Belcher (never lost, but I had to keep many hands with Force and no lands. reasonable?)
Eva-Green (no chances of winning this one)
Team America (quite bad, but sometimes they don't get a clock)
Armageddon Staxx (lost nearly every game, but i think this MU should be better... I just let everything resolve and focus on countering Armageddons and Smokestacks. Doin' it right? How about other
staxxish decks?)
Burn (think this one is about 40% as I have to go off fast + have to Stroke him most of the time.)

From random-games on MWS (the ones with competent players, I wont count that Thallid-deck...) I found out that ITF isn't as bad as it looks and ANT and TES should be doable as well. I also beat Ichorid and I felt quite comfortable against his 20-card library. Allthough I must admit I dont know how high the chances are that TES/ANT/Ichorid wins turn 1-3 against a Force, I only played a 2/3sb each. Fortunately I never faced a Dreadstill so far, but as I heard this one is close to an autoloss...?

Many thanks for any inputs and savage tech against these decks.

greetings

Well, the primer Van Phanel is writing will cover that a bit. I'll try to do the decks you named.

-Belcher is favourable, I'm pretty sure about that.
-Eva Green isn't very good, but if you know how to play, it's not that bad. Meditates are awesome here. Try to counter their threats.
- Team America I haven't tested, but seems rather unfavourable.
- Stax is favourable, since you only die to sick hands. Usually you can just wish for Rebuild and wim next turn.
- Burn is kinda weird. It's about even I think, especially with Hydroblasts sideboard.
- Ichorid is a pretty interesting one. Sometimes they're too fast, but sometimes they're way to slow as well. They speed up your clock by milling themself. Boarding Echoing Truth really helps.
- TES I tested alot, and I can say it's about even to a little unfavourable. You still have FoW and Twincast after board, and you put them on a 4 turn clock.

Shimster
11-19-2008, 01:42 AM
Although I played really poorly on Sunday (0/2/1 drop, etc.), I can say something about the Team America MU:

First of all, the deck is designed to beat the shit out ouf you. Thoughtseize can be a pain in the ass (taking your clock, protection, whatever), while Stifle and Sinkhole can finish the show before it even started.

On the other hand, it was the deck I've drawn against (due to the lack of time in the third round): You can delay them considerably by countering their threat (remanding Tombstalker is really good, for obv reasons).

Postboard, you should twincast their 'seizes as often as possible to take out their creatures.

It's a very close MU nonetheless and I would argue it's pretty close to NQGb. A little bit better, as Team America doesn't like Bob Maher.

---

I got beat by my own deckbuilding skills on Sunday. As I really like 4 Meditates in the mainboard (really, it's awesome), I didn't have any good draw in the sideboard, besides one Tolarian Winds * and the compulsory Stroke of Genius.

Is there any alternative, apart from Three Wishes? Midcombo, there might be Careful Consideration, precombo there still is Peer trough Depths **.

* My theory on that: Either you've got a lot of acceleration, then you can go for Stroke. Or you've drawn a lot of shabby stuff (like lands), then you can go for Tolarian Winds. It doesn't work that way, though.

** Yes, there is Twincast. But even with four Meditates MD, it doesn't get you there all the time. I like copying my own Meditates, though.

Hopo
11-19-2008, 01:59 AM
I didn't have any good draw in the sideboard, besides one Tolarian Winds * and the compulsory Stroke of Genius.

Is there any alternative, apart from Three Wishes? Midcombo, there might be Careful Consideration, precombo there still is Peer trough Depths **.


As a kill condition, Words of Wisdom was used back in the days as you can use the Stroke on yourself and kill with words. If you have Flash of Insight, you can (nearly) always go: wish->stroke self->Flash Stroke to RFG-zone and wish it back to kill opponent. For me, three Meditates MD and one SB has worked just fine along with the single Stroke. I also am an advocate for Twincast and I'm currently trying two copies. Meditate is the most twincasted spell for me, too.

Julian23
11-19-2008, 04:28 PM
Been playing Solidarity quite a lot recently I'm wondering when this primer some of you guys I know are working on is about to be released.

I'm really looking forward to! :-)

Zinch
11-19-2008, 04:34 PM
During combo, the best alternative to meditate is three wishes. I've played it and is good, but now I play the 3 maindeck 1 SB meditates configuration, because I think is better because there isn't an alternative that is good pre combo and midcombo.

Van Phanel
11-19-2008, 05:25 PM
Been playing Solidarity quite a lot recently I'm wondering when this primer some of you guys I know are working on is about to be released.

I'm really looking forward to! :-)

Sorry about that. I was overconfident when announcing it...

University is currently stopping me from going on with the primer, I can't promise anything.

@Shimster: Meditate is the most wished for card by far in my games. Are you honestly confident without one sb? I'd rather try a singleton Peer Through Depths main to find another Meditate if you need them that much.

Shimster
11-20-2008, 08:30 AM
@Shimster: Meditate is the most wished for card by far in my games. Are you honestly confident without one sb? I'd rather try a singleton Peer Through Depths main to find another Meditate if you need them that much.
I switched to 3/1 yesterday. Although I really liked the full playset, sometimes resiliency is better than power.

UWb Landstill is still better than UWBg, right? :wink:

deviant
11-20-2008, 03:35 PM
One alternative that crossed my mind is playing the 4 meditates maindeck, and if you really need that meditate, you Wish for Mystical, and mystical the meditate.

This isn't as simple as mysticaling for high tide, which I tend to do occasionally (I put mystical in sb when I had only 14 cards there and it just kinda sticked there..), because if you wish for mystical for meditate you are practically playing this cards that says 2UU; draw three cards, and I am not completely sold on that. If you want to wish for meditate, you NEED it, and fizzling because you didn't draw enough gas is just embarrassing.

chokin
11-20-2008, 04:16 PM
One alternative that crossed my mind is playing the 4 meditates maindeck, and if you really need that meditate, you Wish for Mystical, and mystical the meditate.

This isn't as simple as mysticaling for high tide, which I tend to do occasionally (I put mystical in sb when I had only 14 cards there and it just kinda sticked there..), because if you wish for mystical for meditate you are practically playing this cards that says 2UU; draw three cards, and I am not completely sold on that. If you want to wish for meditate, you NEED it, and fizzling because you didn't draw enough gas is just embarrassing.

Bleh, but that means you are going to use 3 cards to get a Meditate(Wish->Tutor->DrawSpell). Otherwise you're losing a drawstep for the Meditate. Wish->Meditate costs a total of 4UU, while using Tutor is 4UUUU using a Brainstorm/Opt/Peek(or +1 more if you use Impulse or Flash of Insight) to draw the Meditate and play it or just 4UUU if you plan on using your draw for the turn. It doesn't sound too hot to me. Maybe I'm judging it too harshly though.

deviant
11-20-2008, 06:49 PM
Mid-combo you could just take a stroke but I was thinking more of the "if I had a meditate, i could combo at any time" situation, where you'd play that eot wish anyways.

I'm perfectly fine with the 3-1 split myself, but since some aren't I thought to throw that out there.

Shimster
11-21-2008, 01:33 AM
The decission on playing four Meditates main is based on my (not that bad) metagame prediction: I expected a lot of Landstill and some Suicide style decks (be it mono black or Eva Green), at which I board in the 4th Meditate nonetheless.

But afterall, consistency > power. :laugh:

Jade
11-24-2008, 08:28 PM
I played in a local tourney (14 people) this weekend and failed. I played the standard list with 1 Cryptic Command and 1 Twincast.

Round 1 - BGw Rock-variant
He has some early discard but I can recover before his Confidant + Loxodon Hierarch gets to dangerous and win. Game 2 his well timed discard brings it home for him. game 3 I win with ease in response to his first Duress around turn 6.
1-0

Round 2 - B/W Aggro
He started with Vial, followed up by a Confidant. Peek shows me another 2 Confidants, a Grunt and a Whitemane lion (?) He swings a few turns and gets a Duress or two trough, still he wasn't able to really make me sweat game 1. Nice move in this game was using FoI flashback for about 7-8 and watching his grunt die next turn. Game 2 was much closer, as he had discard and a good clock this time. I had to go off with 5 lands, a Turnabout and 2 Impulse and too much damage on the board. I was lucky with the Impulses and won this one regardless.
2-0

Round 3 - B/R/u Discard & bolts (finished 1./2.)
Come on, not discard again! while I only faced a Duress/Thoughtseize configuration in the first rounds, I was up against Hymns too this time. He also played Confis, 3 Tombstalkers and a good amount of Burn, so he had reasonable clock too. Anyway, He's discard didnt get the important spells game 1, I think Brainstorm saved my ass here. I go off turn 5 five with all key-spells in hand. game 2 I'm forced to go off turn 4, with all the important spells in hand again, so I brainfreeze him for 12 & 14... he let each copy resolve till he shows me a Blessing. If I had only knew... I had no mana floating and was tapped out, so I lost. I'm not sure If I would have been able to Stroke him for enough as he was playing 2 Blessings and my Meditates showed me many lands. Game 3 I lose to Duress/Duress/Thoughtseize in his opener.


Play of the round: Twincasting a Turn 2 Duress. Also, letting resolve all 26 copies of Brain Freeze, just because I was bit pissed =P
2-1

Round 4 - Burn (3./4. in the end)
Game one hes just too fast, game 2 he shows me Sirocco in response to a setup-spell, and I only have Remand - but no 2 manas open. Game 3 for fun I win on Turn 3 with Force back-up against upkeep shenanigans. just sayin.
2-2

Round 5 - Geddon Stax
He starts with Chalice@1, Trinisphere and Chalice@2. I counter one of his Armageddons, wish for Rebuild and go off in response to the Trini-replay. Game 2 I keep a hand with land, Brainstorm and good Business. Well, I'm an Idiot. Never do this against Chalice-packing decks. Especially if they Play Trinishperes too. More so if they play stax. Chalice@1 makes sure that I didn't find land Nr.2 for 3 to 4 turns, when he got Trini again. I can't counter his Smokestack and I lose. Game 3 I let resolve to much hate cards (Chalice@1, Defense Grid, Trini, I think there was a Sphere too...) and wasn't able to remand his smokestack when I was on 3 lands. EoT wish on Rebuild wasn't possible because of the Grid, so one Smokestack trigger would have come trough. I wish on my turn and give up in response to his Chalice@3. He then shows me an Armageddon in his hand. I think its okay to put this into the "die to sick hands"-folder
2-3

I only slept 3 hours the night before, I'll use that as excuse. I'm not happy with the outcome of round 4 & 5, but I think I played correct against burn. I think there could have been some play mistakes against Stax (next to the plain stupid "keep" in G2). I'm fine with the result of game 3, heavy discard + beats + blessing is too much.

All in all it would have been a great meta for Solidarity, the only (really) bad MUs were round-3-guy(BRu), Team America and one (yeah only one, but don't get jealous) Thresh(UGr). Next to mentioned decks above I have seen Affinity, Belcher, Survival, GW Stax and Aluren.

Sorry that I didn't win this one, guys.

Yan
11-26-2008, 07:41 AM
I played in a tournament last weekend. There were 33 people there.

I'll try to write a report as well as I recall it from my notes.

First round against Sligh/Burn:

This player is kind of a rookie, doesn't know all the rules and such. I probably could have gotten a game loss for him if I were a dick but I tried to teach him few rules so that he could become better. This was probably the easiest possible matchup that I could have gottem and quess what happened. First game I have all the time I need and stroke him for 70 or something. Then I loose two games to mana skrew and slith firewalker... so sad.

0-1 (1-2)

Second Round against vial WW:

First game I combo out because he has lethal on the board, and I fizzle. It seriously seems that it is not my day. Next game I play brain freeze and he responds by vialing out a true believer. Didn't see that one coming. Luckily I have reset and wish in hand, so I make about 30 mana, wish for stroke, stroke my self for about twenty, bounce the true believer, tap his guys and mill him away.

Third game I have FoW for his Vial and the game is basically over from that point. I echoing truth his believer and combo out, easy win.

1-1 (3-3)

Third round against Enchantress:

Really easy matchup. First game I destroy him completely. Second game I have to mull to 5 but still win through orim's chant with absolutely nuts hand.

2-1 (5-3)

Fourth round agains Burn:

This was alot better burn build and I had no chance... He kills me in 4 turns both games. In second game I try to combo out from a difficult position but he has a burn in response. Really, no chance.

2-2 (5-5)

Fifth round against Affinity:

Nice fast aggro again. He gets me relatively low on life and plays Ethersworn Canonist. I wish for rebuild in response and next turn bounce his board. He plays more gass and next turn I combo in response to his canonist.

Next game goes pretty much the same way and I find my self in good position to still manage to go to the top 8.

3-2 (7-5)

Sixth round against Rgb aggro (or something)

His deck played atleast goyfs, confidants, some red beats and burn. First game I have just enough time to 4 lands in play combo him out. Second game I get 4 lands and am pretty much ready to combo because he has lethal on board. I play meditate and he responds with bolt which would kill me... I have another meditate and I win through difficult comboing.

4-2 (9-5)

That is enough for the price split because all of the 4-2:s got prices... So I was somewhere between 5-9 in standings. There was no top 8, which was sad cause I felt kind of strong at that point :)

My list:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
12 Island

4 Reset
3 Turnabout
4 High Tide
3 Meditate
4 Impulse
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
3 Opt
1 Peek
1 Flash of Insight
1 Twincast
4 Force of Will
3 Remand
2 Cryptic Command
2 Brain Freeze

SB:

1 Rebuild
2 Wipe Away
3 Echoing Truth
3 Disrupt
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Twincast
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Brainfreeze
1 Mystical Tutor

About the sideboard,

Rebuild: Golden against affinity
Wipe Away: Never sided in, never wished, but still stays in
Echoing Truth: Sided in against WW and it was good in there
Disrupt: Sided in against burn but didn't draw them. Would have been good.
Stroke of Genius: Wished many times and used for various things, very flexible and great
Twincast: Sided in and wished few times. Great every time that I used it.
Turnabout: Wished once but didn't matter, would have one either way, just playing it safe.
Meditate: Most wished card. Couldn't play with one on the sideboard
Brain Freeze: Wished once for the win
Mystical Tutor: Never used, will be replaced.

Julian23
11-26-2008, 08:51 AM
Regarding Twincast: Almost every game against any kind of AdN combo I managed to copy AdN itself or at least a preemptively cast Orim's Chant. I know this is some kinda obvious use but it just feels so great :D

Zinch
11-26-2008, 11:01 AM
My list:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
12 Island

4 Reset
3 Turnabout
4 High Tide
3 Meditate
4 Impulse
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
3 Opt
1 Peek
1 Flash of Insight
1 Twincast
4 Force of Will
3 Remand
2 Cryptic Command

SB:

1 Rebuild
2 Wipe Away
3 Echoing Truth
3 Disrupt
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Twincast
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Brainfreeze
1 Mystical Tutor

About the sideboard

Brain Freeze: Wished once for the win


Well... congratulations for top8ing with only one brain freeze in the SB, and only wishing for it once!! :wink:
More seriously... in a meta like yours, i will change the mystical and one wipe away for 2 more twincasts or BEB.

Julian23
11-26-2008, 11:46 AM
for the record: mainboard +2 Brain Freeze

Yan
11-26-2008, 11:48 AM
for the record: mainboard +2 Brain Freeze

yea, they were there... I thought something was missing when I wrote it down... error fixed.

Jade
11-26-2008, 02:49 PM
I cutted the the sb-Brainfreeze from my list and I have to say I was very happy with the gained spot. When I wanted to wish for Brainfreeze, it was only to end to combo faster, but it was never really needed. I was actually able to wish for it quite often due to Force pitch and Flash of Insight.

Ah, and congratulations to the good finish.

Julian23
11-26-2008, 03:03 PM
What I like about having 2 Brain Freeze sb is the possibility of going for 3 maindeck postboard against blue based control.

Van Phanel
11-26-2008, 05:16 PM
But you win against blue based control anyway (if you can deal with possible Counterbalances).

Some weeks ago I asked Deep6er about this and he advised against even one Brain Freeze. As I had never even thought about that possibility before, I tried playing without it and I didn't miss it even once (played two small tournaments and around 100 testgames in various matchups since then). I could have won faster some times, but I didn't lose even a single game to a lack of Brain Freeze in the sb.

My current sb:

1 Stroke
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout

3 Wipe Away
2 Echoing Truth
3 Twincast
2 Hydroblast
1 Rebuild
1 Mystical Tutor


a) Stroke, Meditate and Turnabout are set in stone (wishing for Turnabout is not all that frequent but does come up every now and then).

b) 3 Wipe Away allows boarding two and still having one available for Cunning Wish which helps especially against Dreadstill.

c) Only two Echoing Truth because Mystical Tutor replaces the third (and ETW becomes more rare with most combo playing ADN anyway)

d) 3 Twincast because they are especially great against ADN and helpful against Threshold.

e) 2 Hydroblast because something is needed against Burn/ Sligh

f) The purpose of Rebuild should be obvious and it is necessary at least in my local meta (and at any bigger tournament anyway).

g) Mystical is currently a testslot. The idea is to Wish for Mystical on turn three, play it in your upkeep on turn four and to win on their turn while boarding it in as an additional copy of Twincast/ Truth/ FoW against combo. Unfortunately my testgames were all against blue-based decks so I don't have all that much to say about it yet. In theory it sounds good though.

Lately with Team America becoming pouplar, Disrupt seems like a good addition in place of one Wipe Away and the two Hydroblasts but that would mean some more problems against goblins/ Burn/ other aggro. If anybody gets the chance to test this, let us know. In theory they also seem helpful against Dredge.

Also nice reports, keep playing Solidarity.

Jade
11-26-2008, 06:58 PM
g) Mystical is currently a testslot. The idea is to Wish for Mystical on turn three, play it in your upkeep on turn four and to win on their turn while boarding it in as an additional copy of Twincast/ Truth/ FoW against combo. Unfortunately my testgames were all against blue-based decks so I don't have all that much to say about it yet. In theory it sounds good though.


Actually, I looked at your list at deckcheck before my tourney - thats why I questioned & dismissed the Brainfreeze. Mystical was quite useful that day too, it was nice to go Wish -> Mystical in response to discard. I also side it in against fast decks as burn or affinity to make a turn-3 win more possible. I should have tested it earlier, but back in the day it was dismissed as 'not good enough' ;)

jazzykat
12-03-2008, 02:34 AM
I've tested this deck a bit online where I hadn't run into CB and I have to say it is as strong as ever, it's ability to also piggy back over traditional storm combo decks is also highly amusing.

slobad23
12-03-2008, 05:26 AM
This may well be my first time posting in the solidarity thread... that would probably be because it was never my deck in the local meta, a friend of mine was the solidarity player and i didnt want to steal his thunder.

I picked this deck up at the WRONG time. when counterbalance started seeing play all over the place, i thought - "yeah, now seems like the right time to be playing a deck that loses to it!"

I battled on regardless and started seeing Cryptic Command appearing on the forum with Van Phanel and his couple good finishes with the deck. I got over my doubts on a four mana card in solidarity that was not turnabout and tried it out, and the thing is amazing!

I would not say that the deck is as good as it ever was, as the current meta requires a lot more skill than was ever needed before - and that should say a lot, seeing as how people were so sure that this deck should be goldfished four years to have any sort of understanding of it - a slight exaggeration if you ask me!

@Van Phanel:
I notice your Mystical Tutor in the sideboard and can i just say that after a hell of alot of playtesting, I will not be taking it out for a LONG time. it is far too valuable in being able to wish for whatever you want and grab it in your upkeep as you said. It turns your wishes into tides, all be them expensive ones, and that can just be invaluable

for reference (though they all look the same really), here is my list:

4x High Tide
4x Reset
3x Turnabout
3x Meditate
2x Brain Freeze

4x Brainstorm
4x Impulse
2x Flash of Insight
3x Opt
1x Peek (i have been playing with 4x opt for a long time, but i love this card so much)

3x Cunning Wish
2x Cryptic Command
4x Force of Will
3x Remand

3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
12x Snow Covered Island

Sideboard:

2x Twincast
2x Wipe Away
2x Hydroblast
2x Echoing Truth
1x Turnabout
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Meditate
1x Stroke of Genius
1x Rebuild
1x Brainfreeze
1x Hurkyl's Recall

Slobad23

cjva
12-03-2008, 06:38 AM
I have played Solidarity back and forth for a long time. This is by far my favorite deck, and the sole reason to why i started to play legacy at all.

The biggest problem i have found with this deck is the sometimes rather frustrating lack of High Tide. 4 High tides in the deck, without any way of finding it (except with the mystical in the board people now plays) seems rather low.

I'm going to a local tournament today, we tend to be slightly more then 20 people attending and today I'll switch from Stifle/nought to Solidarity.

How is the discussion about splashing going? this thread is rather long and many has talked about it, but the discussion seems out of date.

Today I'm trying out this list.

MD:
3 High Tide
3 Turnabout
4 Reset
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
2 Opt
2 Abeyance
3 Cunning Wish
2 Mystical Tutor
3 Meditate
3 Force of Will
2 Cryptic Command
3 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
1 Flash of Insight
1 Twincast
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
10 Island
2 Tundra

SB:
1 High Tide
1 Force of Will
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Twincast
1 Abeyance
3 Rebuild
3 Wipe Away
2 Echoing Truth

Many things are pretty standard, but some are there as a test, main things Ill think you will react on.

-1 High Tide MD. This gets back to my thoughts in the beginning. I many times feel that i cant find the high tide, and want 1 in SB to have the ability to set up the combo with Cunning Wish.
+2 Mystical Tutor. The same reason as above, setting up the combo and finding the missing piece, or just fetch Meditate for more card draw.
-1 FoW. I hate FoW in this deck. My experience tells me that i almost all the time has to pitch a important piece in the combo, but i keep the last one in board for wishing. I have before tried out pact of negation and MissD but feel that they lack the staying and overall power of force of will.

White splash for Abeyance. a resolved abeyance gives me a straight path to the win, and can in worst case scenario force opponent to play FoW or another counter on it.

I have had thoughts about splashing black for Skeletal Scrying and ADN, but my initial thoughts about that is that they don't give the deck anything that it does have. We already draw cards in insane amounts anyway.

The main aggro threat in my meta is affinity (4 stable players out of about 20) and the main control archetype is Stifle/nought in one variation or the other (6 now that i don't play it). Nobody plays thresh and counter/top is something i will most likely face in at least 2 out of 5 matches today.

The rest of the meta varies between some rogue decks, crappy kiddy decks and people who play different decks all the time. Some sort of combo will be there, be it either springtide, ADN-tendrils or ichorid, but the amount of combo in my meta is rather low.

Ill post a longer report later tonight when i get home on how my testing has gone, but i would be very happy to hear some thoughts about the configuration on the solidarity I'm playing.

Take care guys!

/Christoffer

Bahamuth
12-03-2008, 10:12 AM
I personally tried some splashes, and generally found them to be not worth it, if there is any form of non-basic land hate in your meta.

I'd say Chant is better than Abeyance, because of the fact that it isn't dead in mid-combo (kicker).

Splashing for green might also be pretty good, given you're in the right meta.

I've only very briefly tested Mystical Tutor. If it's really as good as you guys say, I'll try it out sometime. I still like playing 2 Brain Freeze sb, and it's going to be hard for me to remove them completely.

cjva
12-03-2008, 04:00 PM
oki, for some strange reason almost nobody showed up today. only 13 ppl, so i take my conclusions with a grain of salt.

Match 1: I face stifle/nought. 2-1. First game he resolved CB and well, i did not find an answer for it. Game 2 he taps out for nought/trickbind and i win in his EOT. Game 3 is pretty much the same.

Match 2: I face control sliver with counter/top. 2-1. He never get to resolve CB and its a rather easy win except for the one where he gets a aggro start and i fizzle.

Match 3: Landstill. 0-2. I fizzle on mana, and make lots of errors. No errors who cost me the game, it was still in his hand.

Match 4: Some sort of mono-black aggro. 0-2. first duel he get swamp, swamp, swamp and Hymn x 4. Nothing to do, he kills my hand and draw aggro from the top. Second round he disrupt my hand to oblivion and play some sort of aggro.

The only conclusions i can draw from my experience is;

1: I didnt miss Brain Freeze at all in the SB.
2: Abeyance did not do me any good except to get them to pitch counters. When i resolved them they did not have anything to disrupt my combo with anyway.

We have weakly tournaments so im gonna try the deck out some more times.

Nihil Credo
12-04-2008, 12:00 PM
Thread locked. New thread here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=298742).