[Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)

[Tacosnape]

unless you're assuming your opponent will play some Counterspellesque spell on it.
This is also incorrect. The play here would be to Twincast the Meditate and leave both Meditate and Counterspell on the stack until you draw into either another Twincast or Force of Will to get the original Meditate through. The only time you would Twincast before passing priority would be if you are reasonably certain they can do nothing to stop you.

This assumes your Meditate gets countered. If not, you pass priority and you can't Twincast it if they pass also. But you're right, you can keep going if the series is Meditate/Counterspell.

[quicksilver]

This assumes your Meditate gets countered. If not, you pass priority and you can't Twincast it if they pass also. But you're right, you can keep going if the series is Meditate/Counterspell.

I think he meant cast mediate, then twin cast, then pass priority. if your opponent then counters the meditate, in reponse draw more cards with other spells until you get a counter or twincast for his counter.

[Mad Zur]

No, he meant you don't Twincast before passing priority. If the opponent doesn't counter your Meditate, you're doing fine. If he does, you Twincast it in response.

[dre4m]

Alright, some clarification is necessary here.
My original pretense would be that you wanted to draw eight cards and thus would cast Meditate and Twincast it before passing priority to your opponent. My point was that you could only do this if you were certain that s/he could not counter it because, if it were countered, both of the spells would be.

[MattH]

In the mirror, do you want to play first or draw first? Playing gives you an extra land drop, drawing an extra card.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I would chose to go first off the die roll in any match-up, including the Solidarity mirror. The extra land drop is a whole turn ahead of your opponents, and it seems more optimal then just on extra card, when you will see infinite cards when you go off or abuse the hell out of Flash of Insght. :smile:

[troopatroop]

Seriously tho, for the DLD, play DanDan in your sideboard. The high influx of solidarity only increases your odds of playing the mirror, and with DanDan to apply pressure, it forces your opponent into going off. This puts you in an all but locked position to win.

[URABAHN]

Seriously tho, for the DLD, play DanDan in your sideboard. The high influx of solidarity only increases your odds of playing the mirror, and with DanDan to apply pressure, it forces your opponent into going off. This puts you in an all but locked position to win.

And just what do you propose Solidarity players take out of the board to make room? While Dan Dan is a threat, it can still be Remanded and FoW'd. Dan Dan is also not an instant and will not help you in a stack war. You get your Dan Dan Remanded a couple times, you've tapped two lands and the other guy goes off in your face with Dan Dan on the stack. Wow, Dan Dan was mighty effective there!

[troopatroop]

... Okay? Everything can be remanded and Fowed. Does that make everything suboptimal? The only answer to DanDan is Fow, because remand is purely temporary.

I don't know what to cut on the whole, but if you expect the mirror, you should play the card. Seriously.

[herbig]

Remand is definately not temporary. Remand leaves a useless card in your hand as after turn two you wouldn't want to risk tapping two lands during your turn. That would be just the opportunity an opposing Solidarity would want. If you're worried about the mirror match I would suggest things that would help in other matchups, like Brain Freeze and Twincast.

[dre4m]

Before going off, Remand = Time Walk. Same cmc and everything, except you get to draw an extra card and it's an instant. The sideboard is already tight as is, and trying to put a creature in a deck based around playing fourteen blue instants seems like a bad idea, especailly since they are the worst card you could see while going off.

[Lego]

Before going off, Remand = Time Walk. Same cmc and everything, except you get to draw an extra card and it's an instant. The sideboard is already tight as is, and trying to put a creature in a deck based around playing fourteen blue instants seems like a bad idea, especailly since they are the worst card you could see while going off.

Actually, it's really the second worst thing you can see while going off. The Dan can pitch to a Force if one comes up later on, while lands serve no purpose while going off. Too bad he doesn't cycle for 1.

[Tacosnape]

... Okay? Everything can be remanded and Fowed. Does that make everything suboptimal? The only answer to DanDan is Fow, because remand is purely temporary.

I don't know what to cut on the whole, but if you expect the mirror, you should play the card. Seriously.

It deserves some credit, actually (shrug). If you lost game one, they can't Remand a turn two Dandan. Assuming it will get Forced is ridiculous, because you can Force back, and in the worst case scenario you've managed to draw a Force and one other card out of their hand on turn two, which is a decent game swing.

If you won game one, you can always just not board in Dandan and stick with your Twincasts / Brain Freezes. Dandan is there to give you an edge in a mirror where the other guy's got the same Twincasts / Brain Freezes you do, which most will.

It would blow to hit while going off, of course, and if you don't hit it on your opening draw all it does is pitch to Force of Will or get ignored with Impulse/FOI.

[dre4m]

Actually, it's really the second worst thing you can see while going off. The Dan can pitch to a Force if one comes up later on, while lands serve no purpose while going off. Too bad he doesn't cycle for 1.


I know, my original post contained a joke that Mr. Nightmare edited out, and the sum of it was that the 'Dan was, effectively, the second worst card, aside from cards that are uncastable. As for his application, if you play it on turn 2, it is a five turn clock, and Solidarity can win on turn four. I think that there are simply better sideboard solutions that usually involve your combo and your experience with the mirror. Countering their early card drawing/quality spells is often effective, because you can try to stab them in the eye with your combo before they can develop their hand sufficiently.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

In the solidarity mirror, would the correct sideboarding plan be to board out resets and bring in brainfreeze and twincast??? I say board out resets because according to Deep6er the plan is to feed off your opponents going off and killing them in response to their untap spell.

[dre4m]

In the solidarity mirror, would the correct sideboarding plan be to board out resets and bring in brainfreeze and twincast??? I say board out resets because according to Deep6er the plan is to feed off your opponents going off and killing them in response to their untap spell.

I think the plan is to use Peek to your advantage in the early turns so you can see if your opponent can out-gas you if you try to go off, and you should go off if they don't have something akin to Meditate or a handful of business spells, otherwise, you can use Twincasted Resets and your opponent's High Tides to your advantage, but I would not board out Reset on the play.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

hm... point taken. However, If i were to lose game one and choose to be on the play. What would be the sideboard strategy at that point? Bringing in the 2 other brainfreezes from the board is crucial in the mirror. The more freezes the better. Also, possibly bringing in dirupt to hose their early impulses and such doesn't seem terrible either....

[Angel of Despair]

I just picked up Solidarity a couple of days ago. my combos are getting a bit smoother, but I would really like to know how to beat thresh. Forgive me for asking this, because I'm sure its been answered before, but i really dont have time to go through this whole thread. I would really appreciate any help I could get on how to play this deck as well as possible. I would like to take it to the next tournament I go to.
Thnaks!

[ImAChampion]

Hey guys this is my first post here and I am rather new to Legacy. Solidarity caught my eye as a really cool deck. I have been playing magic for a long time so I am not new to the game...just to the format. Here is the list that I have been testing. Its from a while ago and it isn't my creation...I just simply would like some thoughts on where the deck has gone. Here is the deck.

Instants: 41
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
4 Cunning Wish
4 Force Of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Meditate
4 Reset
3 Thirst For Knowledge
3 Turnabout
Basic Lands: 10
10 Island
Lands: 9
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Thawing Glaciers
1 Tundra
Sideboard: 15
1 Annul
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Brain Freeze
1 Chain Of Vapor
1 Counterspell
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fact Or Fiction
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Orim's Chant
1 Rebuild
1 Stifle
1 Stroke Of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Words Of Wisdom

I was refered to this sight from one of the other websites. If anyone could post an updated list I would appreciate it.

[matyburger]

I'd go and find a list for you, but I'm rather lazy... Just go to Starcity, and click on either the 7/8 or 7/9 Duel for Duals lists... any of the Solidarity decks there should be the newest version... there was a ton of it in the T8, and for the most part, all of the lists were identical.

*Edit* Here's a link to one : http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=17989

[Angel of Despair]

Is it possible to go top 8 with this deck if you have only played it for a week? If so, how do I get really good at it in just a few more days? I really want to take this to the next tourney, but I am not sure if I have enough time.
~AoD

[ImAChampion]

I have been playing this deck all night long and I have tweaked it down to this.

Lands: 18
11 Island
1 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
Instants: 42
3 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight
3 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
3 Opt
2 Peek
3 Remand
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
1 Twincast
Sideboard: 15
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Disrupt
1 Echoing Truth
1 Evacuation
4 Hydro Blast
1 Meditate
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Twincast
1 Orim's Chant

I am really considering Mana Short. I know that Turnabout can accomplish pretty much the same thing but Mana Short will tap down your opponent for 1 less and can prevent your opponent from floating counterspell mana once you tap them down. Any thoughts? Again I don't proclaim to be a great Legacy player but... I think the deck runs really well. Any suggestions or tips are much appreciated.

[dre4m]

Welcome to the Source!
A few issues with your build, however:

3 Force of Will

This already makes your build suboptimal.

1 Tundra
This is not recommended without the full compliaments of fetchlands, and makes you vulnerable to wasteland, which is one of the nicer things that the normal deck doesn't have to worry about.

1 Orim's Chant
Abeyance is strictly better if this is your reason to run Tundra, as you get to cantrip and it takes away all of your opponent's chances of disrupting you that turn by stopping activated abilities as well.

1 Twincast
I do not feel that this belongs in the maindeck.
Mana Short would be useful in the mirror, but not much else.

[parallax]

Mana Short is not that good. Turnabout does the same thing. If you're worried about your opponent floating mana, then advance to the next phase and let them mana burn.

[dre4m]

Mana Short is not that good. Turnabout does the same thing. If you're worried about your opponent floating mana, then advance to the next phase and let them mana burn.

That opportunity is not always possible due to your own mana-floating situations, but is still plausible enough (and Mana Short is narrow enough) that Turnabout negates the need for its inclusion. Too bad Mana Short doesn't cost U, or else it would be the ultimate draw step play in the mirror.

[ImAChampion]

Thanks a lot guys. So Solidarity should stick to Mono U then. Ok.

Here is a playing question for you. Do you wait and combo out just before you are dealt lethal damage or do you try and strike as soon as you hit 4 mana? If you combo out at 4 mana do you cast Turnabout during your opponents Upkeep and then combo out once they empty their mana pool...or when do you prefer to combo out? I have been playing around with different times. I even comboed out on my own turn because he cast Meddling Mage naming Reset. The deck has so many options that I am glad I picked it up as my first choice. Its rather hard to get the hang of but...its good.

Again I am no expert on Legacy but I have a hard time seeing how Aggro decks could consistantly beat this deck. Am I wrong here? What are our Worst Matchups and our Best Matchups?


This is not recommended without the full compliaments of fetchlands, and makes you vulnerable to wasteland, which is one of the nicer things that the normal deck doesn't have to worry about.Would/Could this be worth it? A succesful Abeyance would put all worries to your comboing being countered but...is it worth the risk of losing major tempo due to Wasteland?

[dre4m]

You never want to go off until you have to, unless you believe your opponent is building up ammunition to stop you. Against straight aggro, you can wait until they are about to win and then combo 95 per cent of the time. If you play Peek, you can see whether they have the resources in their deck to try and disrupt you at all (i.e. burn). The best and worst matchups have been discussed extensively elsewhere in this thread. As far as the mini white splash, it is extremely worth it IF you know your metagame is going to be entirely combo and control and thus, not much wasteland. I believe multiples of Abeyance in the maindeck would be necessary if this were the case.

[Lego]

Against decks that can't disrupt you while you're going of (most aggro, and some other combo) like dre4ms said, just wait to go off until you have to. Sometimes I will try to go off the turn before damage would be lethal because that way I can pass the turn rather than finding a lethal Stroke if my going off sort of fizzles.

Againt control you have to strike a happy medium between an optimal hand on your part, and not enough time to sculp a killer hand on theirs. Peek helps with this, and if you Peek into absolute crap, it's usually time to go off. Sometimes you'll just have to go off in response to something you don't want to have to bounce, like Meddling Mage or Chalice.

It really depends on the game state, but the general rule is if you don't have to go off, don't.

[Angel of Despair]

Against decks that can't disrupt you while you're going of (most aggro, and some other combo) like dre4ms said, just wait to go off until you have to. Sometimes I will try to go off the turn before damage would be lethal because that way I can pass the turn rather than finding a lethal Stroke if my going off sort of fizzles.

Againt control you have to strike a happy medium between an optimal hand on your part, and not enough time to sculp a killer hand on theirs. Peek helps with this, and if you Peek into absolute crap, it's usually time to go off. Sometimes you'll just have to go off in response to something you don't want to have to bounce, like Meddling Mage or Chalice.

It really depends on the game state, but the general rule is if you don't have to go off, don't.
When do I decide whether to bounce a Mage or combo instead? I am really new to this deck. What if I have a Cunning Wish in hand, and still missing combo pieces, should I buy more time to combo by bouncing the mage?

[Lego]

When do I decide whether to bounce a Mage or combo instead? I am really new to this deck. What if I have a Cunning Wish in hand, and still missing combo pieces, should I buy more time to combo by bouncing the mage?

These are questions that can't easily be answered so abstractly. Whether you should combo off in response to Mage, or wait and bounce him before you combo off all depends on your hand, your opponents hand (or at least what you suspect it to be) your land situation, your opponent's board, your life total... the entire game state needs to come into that decision, and even then it's not always a conrete answer. Knowing that later on they may be able to counter Cunning Wish or the bounce you'll often want to try to go off, but then again, comboing under pressure is far from optimal. So it's hard to figure out what the right answer is during the game, and probably impossible to figure it out abstractly.

These are all situations that you will get a feel for as you play the deck more. There's no way that we can tell you every possibility that you will face with the deck, and what to do in each of those situations. It's hard to even tell you what to do in one situation, simply because of the wealth of information that must be taken into consideration. I'm not saying this makes the deck impossible to play, it simply means you have to concentrate, pay attention, and above all else: practice, practice, practice.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

pay attention, and above all else: practice, practice, practice.



QFT... the only way you are going to accel at this deck is to goldfish the hell out of it to get a good grip on a smooth combo, and practice against EVERY deck that you think you might face. Simply stating vague situations will not help you, because the game state is always different every game, which will result in your decision making to be flexible. That's why this deck is so powerful, it is quite consistent and is fast enought to race decks as well. Not to mention, you yourself can decide when it is optimal to go off. I have seen people go off without reset and do retarded things like brainfreeze themself until they hit a Flash of Insight and then just abuse the hell out of the card.. not to mention Angel of Despair, you can cunning wish for the cards that you remove from flashbacking Flash of Insight. Just keep practicing. Every game you play you will get better, and you will become more natural with the deck. Good luck!

[sodaswirlee]

-= dragging discussion back to the mirror if for only a moment

I was looking through some cards last night and came upon mystic remora. It seemed to me like it could be excellent in the mirror match. There's been a small amount of discussion in some other threads (older ones perhaps) about the possibility of siding in mystic remora against solidarity already, and you can't beat the cost. Why bother casting stuff to shape your hand when you can just take advantage of *every* spell your opponent casts for a while. It would almost certainly stall them at the very least. Not sure if it's a good idea or not really, what do you all think?

[dre4m]

-= dragging discussion back to the mirror if for only a moment

I was looking through some cards last night and came upon mystic remora. It seemed to me like it could be excellent in the mirror match. There's been a small amount of discussion in some other threads (older ones perhaps) about the possibility of siding in mystic remora against solidarity already, and you can't beat the cost. Why bother casting stuff to shape your hand when you can just take advantage of *every* spell your opponent casts for a while. It would almost certainly stall them at the very least. Not sure if it's a good idea or not really, what do you all think?

Mystic Remora would be a bomb in the mirror match were it not for one savage ass-raping it hands you: The cumulative upkeep. You absolutely need all your lands open so you can combo off after your opponent if necessary, and Remora taps down every land you're going to play after you cast it, so you won't be able to cast any of your card drawing or quality spells, such as Impulse or Brainstorm, and worse, you will have Tangle Wire'd yourself when they choose to go off. It is possible to break out of this situation, but it would require them having neither Turnabout nor Force of Will.

The best solution for the mirror match is experience.

[Lego]

The best solution for the mirror match is experience.

Actually, I find that I win the most mirror matches when my opponent has 59 cards in his deck and the judges deck check us.

No, but seriously, QFT. I think we should stop trying to find a cute trick for the mirror match, and we should realize that the person who has played it more, or in the case of roughly equal skill the person who gets a bit more luck, is going to win this match. You can board some things in to make it a bit better for you, but I wouldn't board anything specifically for the mirror that is bad everywhere else.

[dre4m]

I wouldn't board anything specifically for the mirror that is bad everywhere else.

QFT as this is applicable to far more than this deck, and specifically to storm combo decks, unless it is a viciously one-sided effect like Aura of Silence (http://magiccards.info/fnmp/en/26/). Steps to take to get better at the Solidarity mirror:
1) Play it.
2) Repeat step one until your hands threaten to fall off.
3) Get plenty of rest.
4) Repeat steps one through three every two days, while testing against other decks on the off days to prevent yourself from going insane.
5) Get a good night's rest the night before the tournament.
6) Bring along whatever luck charms you have, and perform whatever luck rituals you have.
7) Win the die roll as often as possible.
8) Dont' be a jackass to your opponent if s/he gets luckier than you.
9) Repeat until Solidarity is obselete or you decide to stop playing it.

[herbig]

Hey guys, I split for first at Kadilak's Dual Land draft with this:

4 Reset
4 High tide
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Remand
3 Turnabout
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight
2 Brain Freeze
4 Meditate
4 Opt
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
12 Island
SB:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
4 Hydroblast
1 Brain Freeze
4 Disrupt
2 Twincast

After initially cutting Twincast altogether I came around to two in the sideboard for the control/gro/solidarity matchups and they worked phenomenally. What I'd like to know is how everyone feels about the build I've been running compared to what the accepted list is, mainly the Meditate in the board for Twincast main. A number of people, including Gearhart, believe that four maindeck Meditate is a mistake. Since I'm going to be playing at gencon I'd like to get everyone's opinion of an optimal list.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I am in no position to say which is better, but I can throw in my 2 cents. There are several advantages and disadvantages to the main board 4th Meditate and the sideboarded 4th Meditate. At the DLD in which I placed 6th, my list was almost identical to Herbig's. (besides the 4x opt) NO Twincast main, but two in the board. I also ran all 4 Meditates maindeck. It served very well for me, I didn't really see the need for a Meditate during the entire tournament. I seemed to get them when I needed them, and drew into them when they were useful. However, after the tourny, me and Gearhart had a nice Solidarity discussion in which he verbally convinced me to maindeck 1x Twincast and to sideboard 1x Meditate. I did a little switcheroo and I am currently testing it. Today at Millenium, I was pleased with the maindeck Twincast, as Gearhart says "It is randomly ridiculous." In addition, EOT Cunning Wish when I had no other plays to grab a Meditate also worked out well. I wasn't going off, but having the access to the card via Cunning Wish was excellent. I am not sure which build is fully optimal, but I plan on finding out. Test Test Test!!!

[BiscuitVader]

This is a really newb-ish question, but I have to ask.

What do I set Chalice of the Void at to hurt Solidarity the most?

[ImAChampion]

This is a really newb-ish question, but I have to ask.

What do I set Chalice of the Void at to hurt Solidarity the most?I would have to say that 1 would probably hurt the worst. That shuts down High Tide and Chain of Vapors. That leaves only Stroke of Genius as a win condition. It still by no means beats the deck though.

@herbig,
Why did you avoid Peek? I know that Opt digs a little deeper but Peek does just that...tells you whats going on with your opponent.

[Nightmare]

Herbig - The benefit I see to Meditate in the board is that it allows you a draw spell that isn't Stroke. While both functionally do the same thing (let you keep going off if you've stalled a bit), the difference is mana utility. With Stroke, you need 10 mana to draw 4, while you need 6 with Meditate. Paired with this, once you use Stroke in this manner, you need to find Flash of insight to remove it again, so you can Cunning Wish for it again. This means to win at instant speed, you need an additional 4 mana more, at least, bringing the tally to 8. You also need to find either Flash or Brainfreeze, an additional card. Stroke is still in the board if you need to draw a butt-ton, but the second draw seems pretty clutch.

Champion - Opt has more library manipulation utility than Peek. You trade manipulation for information. Both are valid uses for the slots, but you need to ask yourself if you would rather know what your opponent is holding, or make sure you do/don't draw that land that's on top.

[BiscuitVader]

I would have to say that 1 would probably hurt the worst. That shuts down High Tide and Chain of Vapors. That leaves only Stroke of Genius as a win condition. It still by no means beats the deck though.
Thank you.

More content in the LMF, please. ~ Nightmare

[VeniVidiVici]

While bringing up the subject of the mirror is probably akin to equine flagellation, I'm slightly confused as to this comment earlier:


I say board out resets because according to Deep6er the plan is to feed off your opponents going off and killing them in response to their untap spell.

If both players were to utilise this strategy, wouldn't a stalemate effectively be created? Does it just come down to repeatedly Brain Freezing the opponent?

Finally, as a player who has a love for dirty combo but can't acquire Resets, what tools does Spring Tide have at sorcery speed? I imagine Merchant Scroll and Ideas Unbound, but what else?

[dre4m]

While bringing up the subject of the mirror is probably akin to equine flagellation, I'm slightly confused as to this comment earlier:



If both players were to utilise this strategy, wouldn't a stalemate effectively be created? Does it just come down to repeatedly Brain Freezing the opponent?

Finally, as a player who has a love for dirty combo but can't acquire Resets, what tools does Spring Tide have at sorcery speed? I imagine Merchant Scroll and Ideas Unbound, but what else?

Welcome to the Source! I always immediately like any members with Latin names.
If both players utilse this strategy, one will either Cunning Wish for a Reset and go off, or go off with Turnabout, or wait for his or her opponent to do the same. Spring Tide is much worse than this deck, but you get Snap and Cloud of Faeries in addition to the cards you mentioned, which supposedly let you goldfish a turn faster.

[tivadar]

Quick question, I'm working on testing with this deck (or against it I should say) and using a list from a tourney a while back (though now I've got a whole new set...). I'm pretty sure I'm doing a rather terrible job of playing with the deck. I'm looking for a bit of information about how well this goldfishes. I had figured a hand with 2 or even just 1 island (and Opt + impulse +BS) is a keeper. Is this true? In addition, what's the fundamental turn? Supposedly it's 4, but when I play, it tends to average closer to a 4.5 or 5 depending on when I get my pieces. Granted you can go off and hope you draw into what you need, but then you run a larger risk of fizzling. How often, on average, does it fizzle? How does FoW change your fundamental turn? It seems to push it up to 5 or a bit higher with no other counters in my testing.

[dre4m]

Quick question, I'm working on testing with this deck (or against it I should say) and using a list from a tourney a while back (though now I've got a whole new set...). I'm pretty sure I'm doing a rather terrible job of playing with the deck. I'm looking for a bit of information about how well this goldfishes. I had figured a hand with 2 or even just 1 island (and Opt + impulse +BS) is a keeper. Is this true? In addition, what's the fundamental turn? Supposedly it's 4, but when I play, it tends to average closer to a 4.5 or 5 depending on when I get my pieces. Granted you can go off and hope you draw into what you need, but then you run a larger risk of fizzling. How often, on average, does it fizzle? How does FoW change your fundamental turn? It seems to push it up to 5 or a bit higher with no other counters in my testing.

In order to properly respond to this, I need to see your build. If I had a hand with a lone Island, Bstorm Impulse, and Opt in it, and the other three cards included a Tide and some business spells, I would certainly keep it as the odds are something like ninety-three per cent that you will find at least two lands. As far as the 'fundamental turn' it is usually four, though you can effectively go off anytime you want during your opponent's turn (I recommend the draw step). I have gone off easily with three land before, usually involving at least two High Tide, so you can throw it down like that if you need to, but a hand with a couple fetchlands and the rest business spells is optimal in my opinion.

[herbig]

Why did you avoid Peek?
Many people like Peek, and I don't think its a bad card, but Opt in my opinion is better in that it speeds you up against fast aggro decks. It may seem marginal, but when you're looking for a High Tide before turn four, that extra card seen will be crucial. Peek helps pretty much only in the Gro and Solidarity matchups. I felt confidant in my ability, despite not testing against Solidarity, to outplay anyone who was not solid at the deck. Ewokslayer gave me a run for my money though, I would have loved to have had Peek against him. So I was looking at using Peeks only for Gro, which although is the most popular deck, wouldn't be the majority of my matchups. I'm sure Virginians will tell me my logic is flawed, and I'd love to hear more opinions on it.


what tools does Spring Tide have at sorcery speed?
Check out the Spring Tide thread, they should have all you need there.


what's the fundamental turn? Supposedly it's 4, but when I play, it tends to average closer to a 4.5 or 5
The deck is definately very slow, and sometimes doesn't have the ability to kill fourth turn. The good thing about that is that other decks seldom do as well. Also, Forces and Remands on their threats slow the game way down, buying you time to hit lands and shape your hand. But turn 4 is when the opponent should be worried if they haven't done anything to hinder you.


you can effectively go off anytime you want during your opponent's turn (I recommend the draw step)
As long as you realize you cannot combo during their draw step before the opponent draws a card. Also, it isn't the best time to combo, as you would like the most information possible before you kill, like if they are going to kill you/cast anything relevant.

[dre4m]

<edit> Nevermind, looked in the comp rules, too late for Qs to get to me though =P</edit>

[quicksilver]

you can effectively go off anytime you want during your opponent's turn (I recommend the draw step)

As long as you realize you cannot combo during their draw step before the opponent draws a card. Also, it isn't the best time to combo, as you would like the most information possible before you kill, like if they are going to kill you/cast anything relevant.


From what I have seen it often seems best to combo off in respose to an opponents spell. For example, if they go to play some hate card like Arcane lab for example, combo with the lab on the stack. Or if they tap out for some huge spell you can combo while they have no mana.

If it is a clock that is forcing you to combo out, then comboing at the beggining of the attack phase seems good to me since it still alows you to turnabout their creatures if you need to.

If you simply try to combo out on their draw step then they will be completly untapped and may have answers for you.




Herbig, it was my impression that the card draw goes on the stack, and, accordingly, you will get priority and be able to place all of your combo on top of it, so that they lose when they draw. Here is my source, though it might be dated. I am fairly convinced that the draw for a turn goes on the stack and causes priority to be passed accordingly.

Taken from the Comprehensive rules:

304. Draw Step

304.1 First, the active player draws a card. This game action doesn’t use the stack. Then any abilities that trigger at the beginning of the draw step and any other abilities that have triggered go on the stack. Then the active player gets priority and players may play spells and abilities.

It used to be that drawing a card used the stack, for a brief time I believe you cold stifle the card drawn for the turn.

[MattH]

Stifle was, in fact, the REASON they changed the draw to not use the stack.

[matyburger]

Oh, and there's another common time to go off, which quicksilver didn't mention - in response to some effect by your opponent that would cause them to draw a card (typically a draw spell, but i could see someone trying to go off in response to a cycled decree of annihilation as well)... it eliminates the need to Stroke your opponent, as you can just Brain Freeze their library, and let them finish themselves off.

This is probably most relevant in the mirror match, where a gigantic stack war develops, and in some cases, both players have no library left, and are just fighting over getting their opponent's draw spell to resolve first - I saw at least one mirror at the D4D that ended that way...

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

@VeniVidiVici.. you brought up the situation in the mirror match in which you suggested that both players might wait for the opponent to make a move, thus resulting in a stalemate. I have never seen this happen before.. ever. IF both players are looking to play the defensivve, eventually someone will make a move in response to a dig spell or a fetch. For example, I had to play against Gearhart in round one of the DLD. We both sat around for a while, and gathered information via peek. Several lands were played and the game seemed endless. However, both of us were just waiting for the window of oppurtunity to go off. No solidarity player is just going to sit there the whole game waiting for their opponent. If you like sitting around and waiting, play Mist of Stagnation.dec Back to my example. I had 9 lands out and Gearhart had 7 out. I had two fetches out however, and I saw this as an issue, so on his end step, I attempted to fetch. That is when Gearhart responded with High Tide and tried to go off. He knew I had more lands than he did, so him attempting to go off in response to my fetch was a great idea. Each and every land and spell matters in the mirror match. I have little experience with it, but I can say for sure that it isn't terrible to go off in response to a fetch or a dig/draw spell. That tapped mana just gives you a slighter edge.


In addition, I am currently testing the 4x Opt after seeing Herbig's success and thinking about his justification of cutting peek. The extra library manipulation has been excellent for me. It is really a judgement call though, information, deck manipulation, or a little of both. I just need to get better at the mirror so I won't miss peek as much. :tongue:

[ImAChampion]

Ok I don't see why you can't go off during your opponents Upkeep before they draw. As soon as they finish their Upkeep you get priority and should be able to use Reset...right? So here is my theoretical example:

Opponents Upkeep:
1) They already untapped and paid their upkeep costs.
2) Before they move to the draw step you should get priority and play Turnabout tapping them down.
3) Proceed to High Tide, Reset/Turnabout, Brainstorm...whatever you do to go off.
4) Once they are libraryless (I am gonna patent that)...pass priority and move onto the Draw Step.

Draw Step:
1) They can't draw a spell.
2) They lose.
3) Do a happy dance.

Am I wrong here? You are definetly allowed to play spells during their upkeep which is before their draw step...so I don't see the problem here. Plus anything that they do to try and disrupt you...which will probably be countering the original Turnabout...it will simply add to the storm count. I must be missing something if this isn't how it works.

@Herbig,
I like your thought process about Opt. I will try it out this weekend when I play a small tourney at my local store.

[Obfuscate Freely]

The only problem with going off before your opponent's draw step is that Reset cannot be played until after his or her upkeep step.

[ImAChampion]

The only problem with going off before your opponent's draw step is that Reset cannot be played until after his or her upkeep step.
Wouldn't it be after his Upkeep because he will have passed priority over effectively ending his upkeep? Even without Reset...Turnabout can do the trick. 6 spells + 2 Brain Freeze + Remand = decking. If they try to play counters...it makes it even easier.

[noobslayer]

Except for the tiny fact that the active player, ie, the person drawing, has priority going into the draw phase. That and the drawing doesn't use the stack.

[Nightmare]

Wouldn't it be after his Upkeep because he will have passed priority over effectively ending his upkeep?No. "After his upkeep" doesn't happen until during his draw step, after he draws. When he's in his upkeep but passes priority, it still is his upkeep, you just have priority. There is no way to both use Reset, and deck him with his draw step in the same turn.

Even without Reset...Turnabout can do the trick. 6 spells + 2 Brain Freeze + Remand = decking. If they try to play counters...it makes it even easier.This win is actually fairly difficult. Why not just wait a phase and win at instant speed in response to his first spell?

[herbig]

Opponents Upkeep:
1) They already untapped and paid their upkeep costs.
2) Before they move to the draw step you should get priority and play Turnabout tapping them down.
3) Proceed to High Tide, Reset/Turnabout, Brainstorm...whatever you do to go off.

The earliest you can play Reset is during the draw phase, after they have drawn. Also, don't use Turnabout to tap them down, it is not a good tactic, especially if you plan on killing them during their upkeep, since they can just float mana. In any case, don't tap them down with Turnabout.


This is the list I'm considering running at Gencon, I'd like as many comments as possible:

4 Reset
4 High tide
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Remand
3 Turnabout
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight
2 Brain Freeze
3 Meditate
4 Opt
1 Twincast
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
12 Island
SB:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
4 Hydroblast
1 Brain Freeze
3 Disrupt
2 Twincast

I have changed my mind on Twincast after the last tournament. It is definately a crazy card. One trick that Gearhart told me to use against IGG, which I could have done had I remembered, was to Twincast Ill Gotten Gains if I had Reset in hand as well, thus generating infinite mana, followed by recurring any draw spell. The card is just too powerful not to play.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

@ Herbig, that list looks very strong. However. The only difference I would make would be to cut one Twincast in the board and put in 1x Rebuild. That card is sooo nuts against affinity, which can race you, and it helps greatly in matchups where Chalice of the Void is highly present with them playing around Echoing Truth and Chain of Vapor. I was quick to put Rebuild in my sideboard after losing HORRIBLY to 5/3 in the first round of T8. My hands were nothing great, but I admit it would have been nice to have access to rebuild. thoughts???

[ImAChampion]

Rebuild does sound promising. That gives 3 outs to Chalice. Echoing Truth, Chains of Vapor, and Rebuild. I like that alot.

Mind me asking when Disrupt is sideboarded in and what is taken out? Also what would you sideboard against Goblins...other than Hydroblast. I have had a lot of success with simply useing the deck as is and simply wishing for my sideboard. Then again I don't get a lot of Goblins or Gro decks.

[noobslayer]

Even though my experience is not as developed as yours with the deck (Herbig), I would also opt for NANTUKO_SHADY's sentiments. I'm not sure in what match-ups more than two twincasts would be absolutely necessary.

[GreenOne]

Rebuild does sound promising. That gives 3 outs to Chalice. Echoing Truth, Chains of Vapor, and Rebuild. I like that alot.


Well, that is 2 outs from chalice, unless chalice for zero :tongue:
I mean, chalice for 1 shuts chain of vapor, at 2 echoing truth. Noone will ever set it at 3 vs solidarity.

[Phantom]

I have a question about hate vs. Solidarity:

How devastating are Cranial Extaction (I'm assuming naming High Tide is the best play?), Persecute, and Boiling Seas, and which is the most devestating?

(I understand that they are all fairly slow cards that Solidarity can respond to by going off, but the deck I'm thinking about runs a good amount of disruption)

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Mind me asking when Disrupt is sideboarded in and what is taken out? Also what would you sideboard against Goblins...other than Hydroblast. I have had a lot of success with simply useing the deck as is and simply wishing for my sideboard. Then again I don't get a lot of Goblins or Gro decks.

Disrupt is a major reason why we can beat Deadguy Ale. Disrupt is boarded in in any matchup where your opponents early turns consist of Duress, Hymn, Sinkhole, Vindicate etc. Disrupting those early spells gives you so much tempo advantage. They are accomplishing little while you are drawing cards and dropping lands. I would board out 2x Remand and 2x Peek or Opt, depending on your build. My current sideboard runds three Disrupt though, so I would board out 2x opt and 1x Remand. Oh and BTW... Twincasting Hymn to Tourach is nuts!!!

[GreenOne]

I have a question about hate vs. Solidarity:

How devastating are Cranial Extaction (I'm assuming naming High Tide is the best play?), Persecute, and Boiling Seas, and which is the most devestating?


Boiling seas is the best of the 3 cards if you want to run disruption before and cast it turn 4 hoping that it can't combo in response. Is terrible if you want to accelerate into it (like cast it turn 2)

Persecute is really good if you want to accelerate into it. (example: turn 1 duress, turn 2 ritual-> persecute) But you gotta have an actual clock, otherwise solidarity can rebuild its hand with meditate, wish->meditate, flash of insight.

Hope this helps, and someone correct me if i'm wrong :smile:


EDIT: forgot... Cranial is the worse of the 3. If you got a LOT of discard you might think of Haunting Echoes in its place. However, persecute and boiling seas are better if you have a clock.

[lillelassie]

Cranial Extraction is bad against High Tide, as they can just wish the card back.

When I play Soildarity against B/W Deadguy, I counter their LD first. Discard doesn't really matter as long as you protect your hand with Brainstorm. They dont really have a fast clock so I usually just cast meditate, skipping a turn, but getting cards back, and then go off.

Please read the forum rules (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=624), and follow them. Here on The Source, and especially in the LMF, the Shift Key is Manditory. ~ Nightmare

[dre4m]

My advice to everyone is the following:
Do not play Solidarity at Gencon unless you are willing and well-prepared to face the mirror match, and can play through a LOT of hate. This deck has been putting up some great showings lately, and everyone is going to be prepared.

Lillielassie, you cannot always draw a Meditate or protect your hand against multiple Hymns, though Tide is more ressiliant to this than any other deck in Legacy.

Please leave the Modding to the Mods. There is a report post button. ~ Nightmare

[lillelassie]

Oh sorry for being lazy Dreams :)

The thing is that I'm form Denmark and we have a different grammar, thats why my period-key is "malfunctioning."

Regarding my gameplan agaisnt Deadguy, I never said it won me the game, just that it helps not losing to fast.

My advice would be to play goblins at GENCON with 4 chalice and maybe blasts in board. This should give you enough time to race Solidarity, and help out vs. Threshold as well.

[noobslayer]

I'd play this at GenCon. Just make sure to be competent with the deck, and that goes with anything. This deck more than anyother deck has the capabilities to play through hate and succeed. Heck, this past weekend, in a field that put up a fair number of good Gro players, solidarity still beat it out in numbers in the top 8.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I believe that this is a fine deck to play at Gencon... Just because people will be ready for it doesn't mean you shoudn't play the deck. People have always been prepared for a Solidarity heavy field. At the DLD, people were prepared to face Solidarity, and yet still 3 of the seven people playing it made T8. That is why Solidarity is so damn good. It has an amazing ability to fight through hate and disruption. If you are a solid Solidarity player and you are confident in your skills, run Solidarity at Gencon. Don't not play the deck because you think people will be ready for it. That's absurd.

[Lukas Preuss]

I have changed my mind on Twincast after the last tournament. It is definately a crazy card. One trick that Gearhart told me to use against IGG, which I could have done had I remembered, was to Twincast Ill Gotten Gains if I had Reset in hand as well, thus generating infinite mana, followed by recurring any draw spell. The card is just too powerful not to play.

Wow, that's pure genius... I had never thought about this one (As an excuse: IGGy Pop sees almost no play in Germany, though)... that's awesome. :D

Gearhart is always good for some new Solidarity tech, I guess. We can still learn a lot from this guy, even though he is not the only person able to T8 with Solidarity anymore... ;)

[noobslayer]

In any case, don't tap them down with Turnabout.
Is that if you aren't planning on killing them during their main phase? It seems fine to tap them down, pass the phase, and make any floated mana useless.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

If you are to turnabout their lands, do it on their upkeep or during your own turn. If you do it on their upkeep and they decide to float mana, go right ahead and let them do so. Then you allow them to enter their draw phase and enter their first main phase.. then they burn any mana floated. And if you tap them down on your own turn, if they float mana you just enter your next phase. I saw it done at DLD when Ewokslayer Turnabouted Herbig's lands and he floated 12 in response, then Ewokslayer played some spells and emptied his own mana pool and then declared he was entering his attack phase, thus forcing Herbig to make the first move.

[Lego]

Gearhart is always good for some new Solidarity tech, I guess. We can still learn a lot from this guy, even though he is no longer able to T8 with Solidarity anymore... ;)

Edited for truth.


In any case, don't tap them down with Turnabout.

This from the guy who tapped down a Landstill player while going off at the DLD (and if I saw correctly, he untapped his lands instead?)

Mike, what was your plan in the Gro match before the DLD, and what is it now, with the newly added Twincast? Has the loss of Peek shown to be significant?

[herbig]

This from the guy who tapped down a Landstill player while going off at the DLD (and if I saw correctly, he untapped his lands instead?)

Mike, what was your plan in the Gro match before the DLD, and what is it now, with the newly added Twincast? Has the loss of Peek shown to be significant?

I did do that, but only after I had drawn half my deck before the Landstill player even did anything. I was really confused because it looked like he was waiting to do something. I was already in a position to respond to anything he could do and win. He was waiting to Brainfreeze me.

The main point that I'm trying to make is that you shouldn't necessarily be looking to tap your opponent down. This wastes a useful uptap effect for yourself and costs four mana. It just isn't normally how I play the deck, although there may be some circumstances where it could be useful. Play the deck a lot and you will learn when it is a good idea.

About Grow, my main plan is usually just to slow them down long enough to get a solid hand and more than four lands to have the mana to make use of it. Twincast helps a lot in fighting a spell though, either an untap or Meditate. I never liked Peek, as it often doesn't show you anything you didn't already know and is useless against anyone not running relevant instants.

[Ewokslayer]

If you are to turnabout their lands, do it on their upkeep or during your own turn. If you do it on their upkeep and they decide to float mana, go right ahead and let them do so. Then you allow them to enter their draw phase and enter their first main phase.. then they burn any mana floated. And if you tap them down on your own turn, if they float mana you just enter your next phase. I saw it done at DLD when Ewokslayer Turnabouted Herbig's lands and he floated 12 in response, then Ewokslayer played some spells and emptied his own mana pool and then declared he was entering his attack phase, thus forcing Herbig to make the first move.
That is actually a pretty rare occurrence in the mirror. I had tried to go off into his hand of ridiculous spells (thank you Peek) and after the stack war my original Turnabout had resovled and I had 2 mana in my pool while he was tapped down with only 12 in his pool. I didn't have a card drawer in my hand and really wanted to get him to waste another card in hand so I figured I should attack with my phantom Dandan and hope he tried to go off. If he didn't make the attempt, he wouldn't have had any mana and I could go off around the one Force that was still in his hand.
Turnabout is almost always strictly better when used on yourself. You should remember its flexibililty but don't try for the cooler play just cuz.


About Grow, my main plan is usually just to slow them down long enough to get a solid hand and more than four lands to have the mana to make use of it. Twincast helps a lot in fighting a spell though, either an untap or Meditate. I never liked Peek, as it often doesn't show you anything you didn't already know and is useless against anyone not running relevant instants.
Hebig seems to be uniquely gifted in his ability to have Remand in hand when Gro players cast turn 2 and 3 Werebears without Daze backup. I excel at drawing Remand as my only draw spell after Gro is done playing spells.

[BiscuitVader]

Has anyone else had trouble with the mana base that most people posting on this thread run?

For refrence, that is
12 Islands
6 Fetchlands

I dont know if I'm just bad at being lucky, or if MWS's shuffler is off by alot, but I always seem to draw 0 lands in my hands. I get mana screw every other game.

Also, how many Brain Freeze is the correct number to play?
I have been running 3, and its been working out pretty good, but most people seem to be running only 2.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

My mana base has been working out quite solid for me. I suppose that computer shuffling could be different and not as effective as normal shuffling, but don't think about changing the mana base. It is solid as is. The only times I ran into repeated mana screwing was in the first round of T8 at Kadilak's DLD. Besides that, a few lands and some dig spells always appear in my opening hand. As for the brainfreeze question. Two maindeck, two in the sideboard seems to be the optimal build. Maindecking three seems a little dangerous, as you don't want to see too many of them in your opening hand. Also, cutting something for the freeze could prove to be a problem. Two freezes works perfect for me, and if you are facing the mirror or a counter heavy deck, then just board in the 2x from your sideboard.

[dre4m]

Has anyone else had trouble with the mana base that most people posting on this thread run?

For refrence, that is
12 Islands
6 Fetchlands

I dont know if I'm just bad at being lucky, or if MWS's shuffler is off by alot, but I always seem to draw 0 lands in my hands. I get mana screw every other game.

Also, how many Brain Freeze is the correct number to play?
I have been running 3, and its been working out pretty good, but most people seem to be running only 2.

I think someone (Gearhart, perhaps) determined that eighteen land is the optimal number for this deck a long time ago. Personally, I have always used the base of ten Islands, eight fetch lands, because I just hate drawing lands and want to thin as many as possible, regardless of what other people tell me. If MWS is giving you problems, you may be making the same mistake that many online players make of shuffling your library too many times. I believe MWS begins to have shuffler errors after 5+ shuffles, so only shuffle 2-4 times.

[URABAHN]

I think someone (Gearhart, perhaps) determined that eighteen land is the optimal number for this deck a long time ago. Personally, I have always used the base of ten Islands, eight fetch lands, because I just hate drawing lands and want to thin as many as possible, regardless of what other people tell me. If MWS is giving you problems, you may be making the same mistake that many online players make of shuffling your library too many times. I believe MWS begins to have shuffler errors after 5+ shuffles, so only shuffle 2-4 times.

Eight fetches is dangerous because there are times when that loss of life will come back to haunt you. I'd also think you'd have trouble in the mirror because you're playing less Islands and drawing nearly as many fetches which, when used, means you'll draw less Island and have to discard more often.

[GreenOne]

Every 2 pages of the thread there's someone asking for the plan in the UGW Gro matchup, but noone has never written a useful post for it other then "go for the double freeze" or "build a giant counter stack and freeze" (as far as i know).

Can someone (herbig or deep6er) write something accurate about it?

I mean, something like:

My SB plan is:
-2 card, -3 card, +1 card, +4 card.

this is because i want to be more controllish/ more fast,
I usually try to combo "on turn 4/5/6", "in resp to a cantrip", "in resp to mage".
I try to play around meddling mage with "way of playing around mage",
I keep a hand with...


I'd really appreciate some help and clarification because last 3 touraments I went to were something like 1st UGW, 2nd Solidarity (me) :frown:

[BiscuitVader]

I think someone (Gearhart, perhaps) determined that eighteen land is the optimal number for this deck a long time ago. Personally, I have always used the base of ten Islands, eight fetch lands, because I just hate drawing lands and want to thin as many as possible, regardless of what other people tell me. If MWS is giving you problems, you may be making the same mistake that many online players make of shuffling your library too many times. I believe MWS begins to have shuffler errors after 5+ shuffles, so only shuffle 2-4 times.
Ok, thank you.
You are right, I usually hit the shuffle button 3-5 times. I'll try and cut back.

With 8 Fetchlands, how is your goblin matchup? Do you sometimes wish you didn't get yourself for so much?

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I'd really appreciate some help and clarification because last 3 touraments I went to were something like 1st UGW, 2nd Solidarity (me) :frown:


Ok... I am no Herbig or Gearhart, but I think I have a general idea of what the sideboarding strategy would be. Remand seems pretty bad against Thresh, so I would side out 4x Remand and pull in 2x Brain Freeze and 2x Twincast, pending that you have Twincast in the board. Now on to judging on when it is a good time to try to brainfreeze them? The best thing to do is to try and build the best hand possible turns 1-3, and on turn 4, if you feel you can build a decent storm count, then go for it in response to their last spell. If they go Serum Visions, then cast Meddling Mage, that is two spells right there to boost your storm, a.k.a 6 more cards off their library. You have to be smart, and capitalize off of their own spells and their counters. To be honest, the only card that is necessary to counter in the U/G/W build is Meddling Mage, and Armageddon if they have them in the board. Besides that, I would like my counters to be in my hand when I try to throw multiple brainfreezes into them. NOT missing a land drop is key, and digging for multiple freezes is always a good idea. But I would also like some input from Herbig and Gearhart, seeming as they have a much better grip on the deck than I do. I know Herbig is down at GenCon right now, so he might not be posting for a while, and I hope Gearhart went down as well to represent this deck of mono blue goodness...

[Nightmare]

Removing Remand seems like a bad idea, since it's your best defense against early Werebear drops. If they commit to tapping out for Bear on turn 3, Remand is Time Walk, and if they Force it, its Hymn. Even if they Daze, it sets them back a land drop, which is a fairly big advantage for you, as long as you keep hitting yours.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Point taken Mr. Nightmare, but then what would you suggest cutting for the manditory 2x Brainfreezes and the 2x Twincast, cutting stuff in this deck is rather difficult, seeming as the build is so tight. Remand is still the only card to come to mind, besides maybe Opt and Peek, but I'm not sure. Cutting opt seems iffy in terms of assuring land drops and such. Perhaps you are correct though. Thoughts?

[Nightmare]

the 4 Opts (or 2/2 Opt/Peek) are the weakest slots in the deck in this matchup. For mana insurance, you still have 4x Brainstorm, 4x Impulse, 2x Flash, so in the 4 turns you expect to take, you should be able to hit your drops. Remand also does everything Peek does, with the additional bonus of commiting your opponent's resources.

[SuckerPunch]

I haven't played too many matchups against solidarity and I've never bothered to try this and I don't want to read through all 42 pages for the answer...

But I was wondering if Solidarity would have a very hard time winning if a deck brought in ~3Gaea's Blessing from the sideboard unless of course, the solidarity list ran gaea's blessing itself.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I haven't played too many matchups against solidarity and I've never bothered to try this and I don't want to read through all 42 pages for the answer...

But I was wondering if Solidarity would have a very hard time winning if a deck brought in 2-3 Gaea's Blessing from the sideboard.


Gaea's Blessing is annoying, but by NO means does it stop Solidarity. Once we go off, generally speaking if we expect Blessing, then it is rather easy to play around. Sure it makes us have to win with Stroke of Genius, but multiple high tides and untap spells shouldn't make it too difficult. All we have to do to deal with Blessing is to Brainfreeze them multiple times until they hit a Blessing, and then Freeze them again in response to Blessing's trigger, or Stroke them out if you have enough mana. In conclusion, Blessing can be annoying, but it does not shut this deck down.

[Krieger]

Removing Remand seems like a bad idea, since it's your best defense against early Werebear drops. If they commit to tapping out for Bear on turn 3, Remand is Time Walk, and if they Force it, its Hymn. Even if they Daze, it sets them back a land drop, which is a fairly big advantage for you, as long as you keep hitting yours.
That is in fact the only time that remand is good. This is what you board against the UGW Grow.

-4Remand - 1 Flash of insight - 1 Meditate
for
+2 Brainfreeze +3 Twincast +1 Echoing Truth

Twincast allows you to win fights over draw spells/untap effects. Remand does this as well but if you are forced to remand your own spell it cost twice as much as it would plus the cost of remand. Twincast just does it better. I don't agree with taking out the Opt/Peek because it is vital to optimize your hand to opt allows you to do that, while remand does not.

The echoing truth is to combat Meddling Mage.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Now that I think of it, that is exactly the same sideboarding strategy Gearhart told me. I was trying to remember what he said but after Krieger's post, thta was definetely it. Go with that strategy, but don't bring in Echoing Truth obv. if they are playing the U/G/R version.

[Lego]

Gearhart was telling me the same board strategy. I didn't know if I was allowed to reveal it in case it was his secret tech or anything, but he told me that the plan was basically to use Twincast to hijack your opponent's draw engine and attempt multiple smaller Brain Freezes. Not rocket science or anything.

Twincasting Predict can be hot. If you have Brainstorm in hand, you can Brainstorm in response, and then draw 2, or if you know that your opponent only knows the top card of their library, you can Predict them and at least stop them from drawing two. If you know their deck well enough, you can often draw 2 while Predicting them anyway, stopping them from drawing two in the process, which can be awesome. Once they've played a couple of cantrips in a turn, you can play a couple yourself, then cast a small Brain Freeze. Ideally the plan is that because you aren't going off completely, the Thresh player won't know what to counter, and it won't matter much if they counter anything.

I haven't tested it, but it seems like a great plan. They are cantripping themselves out of a library anyway, and if you're not hugely concerned with resolving anything, the counters they play will just add to your storm. Plus I feel like not going off fully will just confuse the Thresh player, making it more difficult to figure out which cards are crucial.

[Bane of the Living]

When not going off, 'completely' how often has High Tide been a good card? It seems like its only good for the entire shabang. Its one of the first things Meddling Mage names as well, has anyone tired siding them out? It seems if you want to Brainfreeze your opponent multiple times you should keep Remand to stay alive and maybe also Remand your Brainfreezes to play again.

[Krieger]

When not going off, 'completely' how often has High Tide been a good card? It seems like its only good for the entire shabang. Its one of the first things Meddling Mage names as well, has anyone tired siding them out? It seems if you want to Brainfreeze your opponent multiple times you should keep Remand to stay alive and maybe also Remand your Brainfreezes to play again.

Taking out High Tide limits the amount of spells you can play in one turn. A Gro Player will only generaly counter High Tide if it doesn't give them more counterspells than you will have access to untap effects then they will gain by letting High Tide resolve. Taking out High Tide allows them to only have to counter you untap effects. Remand is only strong early on. Remanding you own spells is very costly and even more so with out High Tide.

[GreenOne]

-4Remand - 1 Flash of insight - 1 Meditate for +2 Brainfreeze +3 Twincast +1 Echoing Truth

isn't cunning wish too mana intensive for this plan?
I mean, it doesn't have juicy targets for 3 mana escluding meditate (and we side out a copy of it in this matchup). Is this to have access to more bounce via chain of vapor? it seems the only juicy thing to take (we got meditate, stroke, disrupt, flash, BEB, turnabout, remand, chain).

In my version i got 2x snap in the side. I usually go with the same SB strategy, but i add also -2 Turnabout +2 Snap. With this configuration is it better to side out Cunning wish for like -3 Wish, +1 chain, +2 meditate?

If the plan is to play some cantrips and freeze without full comboing, why aren't we playing disrupt? I mean, it is a cantrip with low cc, and it can randomly save our spells. In my version it could be -3 wish +3 disrupt

In my testing it appears that Gro is running cantrips in my turn (escluding Serum Visions), so is quite difficult to semi-combo after them (no reset).
Has anyone encountered the same problem? do you usually semi-combo in your turn (with cantrips played) or in the opponent turn (with creatures played)?

do you usually semi-combo with high tide help or no (just reset)?
what if mage hits? first bounce it an then combo (so you combo later) or just combo without tide?


Thanks for all help. I mean, really. :smile:

[Ewokslayer]

isn't cunning wish too mana intensive for this plan?
I mean, it doesn't have juicy targets for 3 mana escluding meditate (and we side out a copy of it in this matchup). Is this to have access to more bounce via chain of vapor? it seems the only juicy thing to take (we got meditate, stroke, disrupt, flash, BEB, turnabout, remand, chain). Cunning Wish is mana intensive but it can not be sided out against white gro due to Mage.



In my version i got 2x snap in the side. I usually go with the same SB strategy, but i add also -2 Turnabout +2 Snap. With this configuration is it better to side out Cunning wish for like -3 Wish, +1 chain, +2 meditate? Boarding out untap effects seems poor. Snap isn't really a replacement because if they are beating with Mongoose you are screwed. If you are boarding in 3 bounce effects you probably don't need Cunning Wish.


If the plan is to play some cantrips and freeze without full comboing, why aren't we playing disrupt? I mean, it is a cantrip with low cc, and it can randomly save our spells. In my version it could be -3 wish +3 disrupt Disrupt sucks against Gro past turn 1. Gro will generally have spare mana against you.


In my testing it appears that Gro is running cantrips in my turn (escluding Serum Visions), so is quite difficult to semi-combo after them (no reset).
Has anyone encountered the same problem? do you usually semi-combo in your turn (with cantrips played) or in the opponent turn (with creatures played)?

do you usually semi-combo with high tide help or no (just reset)?
what if mage hits? first bounce it an then combo (so you combo later) or just combo without tide? It all depends on your hand and what you either know or think you know about there hand. What this board plan gives you is options. You no longer have to win a counter war to go off and win. You now have the option to start a fight you can't win as long as you end it with a Brain Freeze all is good. Generally I won't try for a combo unless I know I will win the stack/counter war or they have reached threshold. No sense it doing a half ass go off for about 15 cards and increasing there clock by 5 fold when you have the time to scuplt a hand that will mill them for 45 or more.



When not going off, 'completely' how often has High Tide been a good card? It seems like its only good for the entire shabang. Its one of the first things Meddling Mage names as well, has anyone tired siding them out? It seems if you want to Brainfreeze your opponent multiple times you should keep Remand to stay alive and maybe also Remand your Brainfreezes to play again.
High Tide is still very important Games 2 and 3. If Mage is naming High Tide you will have to do a quick evaluation of your hand and what cards you have seen so far to determine weather you will
1)Bounce the Mage and go off when they attempt to recast it.
2)Ignore the Mage and most likely have to go off multiple times.

Again, that is what this board plan does, gives you the option of doing either based on your hand at the time.

[GreenOne]

Disrupt sucks against Gro past turn 1. Gro will generally have spare mana against you.


i know that disrupt sucks as a counterspell. I'm just wondering if it is useful as more 1cc cantrip. If the plan is to play many low cc cards to double freeze.. why not add low cc cards in place of high cc cards?

[Deep6er]

OK. I've been out for awhile. I've done some analysis and figured out a couple of things.

Number 1. I know this sounds weird but I'm completely serious. Do NOT test the mirror. A player's personal playstyle and idiosyncracies come to the fore in a matchup that's designed to last a long time. When you test the mirror, you become accustomed to a general idea of how things will work. The problem is the fact that this information is fatally flawed. Everybody plays Solidarity with minute differences. I found that out when I played against Nantuko_Shady and figured his list must have been mine (even though I had neglected to post the new board) and thus had assumed that I would be able to accurately foretell his list and board plan and how he would act given the cards he had available. This was a mistake. He made a misplay that ended up good for him. However, the flip side is the fact that had he played according to plan, he would have lost. I can tell you right now, go into the match just planning on making good plays. Don't solidify a plan or else you will be broken when events shift to unexpected places.

Number 2. Stop discussing "how do I beat threshold?" It's a pointless discussion. The strengths of that deck lie in its flexibility. The board plan that I came up with (posted by Krieger) is your best plan. You have to combat their flexibility by never having a hard and fast rule for the matchup. Be prepared for anything and just play well. You'll win some and you'll lose some but that's just the way the cookie crumbles (also, I like cookies).

Number 3. Also, respect your opponent. Just because you're better than them doesn't mean they can't outdraw you. JRP knows this all too well. :( Superior attitudes can come back to bite you in the ass. Karma is a bitch.

Number 4. I'm awesome. And don't you fucking forget it either. Bitches.

Peace Bitches.

[Lego]

@GreenOne: I was trying to figure out what you are boarding if you've got Twincast, Snap, and Disrupt, and I came to the conclusion that you must have dropped Hydroblast. What is the Goblins matchup like without it? Do you bring in Snap? I heard some talk about it (Snap), but I never tested it, and I'm not sure it's worth it. What are your thoughts?

[jrp]

I had Snap in my board at D4D Day 2, and it was terrible. I'd rather have my Rebuild (due to the growing presence of Chalice of the Void) and my Hydroblasts.

Also, I did savagely outdraw Gearhart in our mirror match on Day 2(7 lands in a row off the top!!), but I think I proved that I'm not terrible by taking 2nd on Day 1, and we BOTH made plently of play errors throughout the match. ;-) Making play errors in the mirror is almost impossible not to do, and its more important to adapt and rethink your strategy every time a new spell is added to the stack, rather than focus on playing perfectly.

-Jim

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Number 4. I'm awesome. And don't you fucking forget it either. Bitches.
Peace Bitches.

My asian brother.. Yes!!

[parallax]

OK. I've been out for awhile. I've done some analysis and figured out a couple of things.

Number 1. I know this sounds weird but I'm completely serious. Do NOT test the mirror. A player's personal playstyle and idiosyncracies come to the fore in a matchup that's designed to last a long time. When you test the mirror, you become accustomed to a general idea of how things will work. The problem is the fact that this information is fatally flawed. Everybody plays Solidarity with minute differences. I found that out when I played against Nantuko_Shady and figured his list must have been mine (even though I had neglected to post the new board) and thus had assumed that I would be able to accurately foretell his list and board plan and how he would act given the cards he had available. This was a mistake. He made a misplay that ended up good for him. However, the flip side is the fact that had he played according to plan, he would have lost. I can tell you right now, go into the match just planning on making good plays. Don't solidify a plan or else you will be broken when events shift to unexpected places.

Number 2. Stop discussing "how do I beat threshold?" It's a pointless discussion. The strengths of that deck lie in its flexibility. The board plan that I came up with (posted by Krieger) is your best plan. You have to combat their flexibility by never having a hard and fast rule for the matchup. Be prepared for anything and just play well. You'll win some and you'll lose some but that's just the way the cookie crumbles (also, I like cookies).

Number 3. Also, respect your opponent. Just because you're better than them doesn't mean they can't outdraw you. JRP knows this all too well. :( Superior attitudes can come back to bite you in the ass. Karma is a bitch.

Number 4. I'm awesome. And don't you fucking forget it either. Bitches.

Peace Bitches.

Those suggestions sound great for someone who's been playing the deck for several years and knows exactly what it can and can't do. But you're telling us we should go into two of our hardest (thinking-wise) matchups without any kind of plan? Obviously, we shouldn't be trying to stick to a script, but shouldn't we have some sort of plan A/plan B sort of concept? You should always (in any matchup) be prepared to change your plan if there is a better play but does that mean you shouldn't form a plan in the first place?

As for Number 3, that applies to every match-up. Even if they're playing an aggro deck that can't hope to race you, you can still lose if you play poorly. And be careful of rogue decks. I played against a weird B/W aggro (not Confidant) that had maindeck Trinispheres. Be prepared for anything.

[GreenOne]

@GreenOne: I was trying to figure out what you are boarding if you've got Twincast, Snap, and Disrupt, and I came to the conclusion that you must have dropped Hydroblast. What is the Goblins matchup like without it? Do you bring in Snap? I heard some talk about it (Snap), but I never tested it, and I'm not sure it's worth it. What are your thoughts?

My sideboard is (at the moment):
2 Freeze
1 meditate
1 turnabout
2 twincast
1 e. truth
1 chain of v.
1 hydroblast
3 disrupt
1 stroke
2 snap
(sometimes it's -1 freeze +1 misdirection)

This is a sideboard tweaked for my meta.
Here Goblin is 5% of the field. UGw 5-10%. Pikula 15%, Zoo variants (GR or WGR) 15%, Landstill (wtf??) 10%. Combo (not solidarity) 20-25%. After these decks there's reanimator, rift, aluren and little scrubs.

Solidarity is great in this meta (i beat combo everytime).
Snap is because of reanimator and meddling mage (coming from sideboard of landstill too).

The misdirection side was when pikula was REALLY in force (20-25% of the field). However, even without misdi and only 3 disrupt is a favorable matchup.
I boarded in misdi for landstill and Gro matchup (awesome to misdi their counter on another of their counters.)

In the goblin matchup i always win G1. So i need only to win 1 out of 2 games side. Noone here is boarding in REB, everyone has got pillar (many of the other combo are black storm decks).

My sideboard plan vs goblin is :
-1 turnabout,-1 opt/peek, -1 flash of insight, -2 force, +2 snap, +1 e. truth, +1 hydroblast, +1 twincast

vs zoo:
-1 opt/peek, -1 flash of insight, -1 force, +1 e. truth, +1 hydroblast, +1 twincast

This is what i wrote some time ago speaking of Snap:


Snap is a must. I found it useful in really many matchups:

Goblin: They side out incinerators to bring in hate. I find it better than turnabout because it can buy you time before the 4th or 5th turn (5th turn if they have an active Port) and so before being at -2 life. It's tempo advantage against Lackey on the play and you can play draw spells in the same turn you play it (unlike turnabout). Watch out for SGC!

UGW gro: They side out Swords to bring in hate (or a blue card, Bardo docet). You can get rid of a meddling mage and combo in the same turn! It buys you an extra turn bouncing a werebear (like turnabout but not easily dazeable and they have to play again the threat, tapping some of their sources) when comboing off is not a dead card as it generates some mana (unless the opponent has only mongeese in the board).

UGR gro: Don't side Snaps in. They'll have 4 legal targets in the entire deck (werebears), and you don't need to get rid of Meddling Mages.

DeadGuy: Bouncering a pumped Shade or a hippie is great tempo advantage (as they have to replay the threat unless they tapped out to pump shade and have a slow clock). In this matchup Snap is better than turnabout because gets active before, consumes their tempo, doen's rely on having 4 mana and you can play a draw spell the same turn you play it.

Vs Random Aggro: i side it in vs heavy equipment decks like Faerie Stompy (God bless Eldariel for creating that deck, it can really unbalance the format). you can gain time bouncing equipped creatures or Sea Drakes (this gains a LOT of tempo). Don't side it in vs decks running burn.


Other than that it helps the landstill.with.meddling.mage.dec and the reanimator.deck matchup.
Note that in the pikula matchup if they ritual->specter first turn on the play you're often screwed. Snap helps in this situation too.
Snap is iseful vs Glowriders too. (i didn't include that because angel stompy doesn't exist in Italy)

However, I found that 1-2 copies are enough (we already got some more bounce) and i really dunno if is it worth in a REB-filled meta or with decks that don't side out all theirs instant critters removal.

Hope this was useful, and remember to always trigger your side to your meta :wink:

EDIT:Damn, i always write long-like-the-bible posts. I think my beard has grown 1 inch more while i was rereading it.

[Deep6er]

Those suggestions sound great for someone who's been playing the deck for several years and knows exactly what it can and can't do. But you're telling us we should go into two of our hardest (thinking-wise) matchups without any kind of plan? Obviously, we shouldn't be trying to stick to a script, but shouldn't we have some sort of plan A/plan B sort of concept? You should always (in any matchup) be prepared to change your plan if there is a better play but does that mean you shouldn't form a plan in the first place?

As for Number 3, that applies to every match-up. Even if they're playing an aggro deck that can't hope to race you, you can still lose if you play poorly. And be careful of rogue decks. I played against a weird B/W aggro (not Confidant) that had maindeck Trinispheres. Be prepared for anything.

Oh, well. What I meant was that you should ABSOLUTELY already know what the deck is capable of doing. If you're going into a tournament without the full knowledge of your deck you're going in with a disadvantage. Is it wrong to expect the basic knowledge out of everyone who plans to attend a tournament with my deck? Maybe. However, I will always make posts with the intent being that you have the full knowledge of how the deck works. Also, the "Threshold" situation is too difficult to explain in a broad, generalized manner. Threshold's versatility is one of the main problems here. Adaptation and versatility, will always beat any plan that we could come up with. Solidarity is a deck that's based around information. You should use that information to it's fullest advantage (hence, the inclusion of Peek) and come up with your own plan. 5 cards allows a lot of flexibility. Make your own decisions here, but seriously think about other matches where they would be useful. I think I have had the most success with the current configuration but I'm still looking for other methods to achieving success. THAT'S what I meant. Anyway, make sure you know the in's and out's of the deck before you take it anywhere.

[parallax]

I know this sounds weird but I'm completely serious. Do NOT test the mirror.
If you're going into a tournament without the full knowledge of your deck you're going in with a disadvantage.
This was exactly my point. The Solidarity mirror is functionally very different from any other match-up or any other game of Magic you will ever play. I once commented that the Solidarity mirror is no longer a game of Magic and is some other game altogether where all cards are instants and all mana is blue. I agree with your point insofar as if you test the mirror too much with the same people over and over again, you may end up making incorrect assumptions against other players. But suggesting that someone bringing this deck to a tournament without testing the mirror at all is just wrong. Part of having full knowledge of the deck is having testing experience against all the major archetypes.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

If you only know one friend who plays Solidarity besides yourself, then yes it is probably not a good idea to play 100 games with that person in hopes of becoming "good" at the mirror. But Parallax, I think what Gearhart is saying is to just be careful when testing the mirror. Generally, "testing" means playing one or a couple of people over and over in hopes of making yourself a better player. There is obviousely no harm in playing the mirror match with several different people. When Gearhart said to not test the mirror, I believe he is simpyl stating don't become a robot with the deck and just pre-make plays before you sit down against your opponent. Practice isn't bad, but be flexible and don't be all like "I'm going to Turnabout his lands on turn 5 regardless of what the game-state is or what's in my hand." <---- That, is what Gearhart is talking about.

[Benie Bederios]

A quick question:

I comboed of against Goblins, depleting his whole library and tapping out his creatures. In response to my Freeze, wich would mill him, he cycles Gempalm incinerator, wich would kill me, I have 4 mana left, so I remand my Freeze, and freeze him in response to the incinerator. Who dies first? or is it a draw?

thanks

[quicksilver]

A quick question:

I comboed of against Goblins, depleting his whole library and tapping out his creatures. In response to my Freeze, wich would mill him, he cycles Gempalm incinerator, wich would kill me, I have 4 mana left, so I remand my Freeze, and freeze him in response to the incinerator. Who dies first? or is it a draw?

thanks

For starters, incinerator cannot target players.

Second, if gempalm could target you and kill you then he would win. The damage dealing of the incinerator is a triggered ability when you cycle. So when you cycle it the card drawing goes onto the stack. Then the damage triggers and goes onto the stack on top of that. The damage resolves, if said damage could kill you it would at this time and you would be dead before the card draw happened.

[Eldariel]

Nantuko, he was planning to use the draw caused by cycling to kill him.

[Tacosnape]

A quick question:

I comboed of against Goblins, depleting his whole library and tapping out his creatures. In response to my Freeze, wich would mill him, he cycles Gempalm incinerator, wich would kill me, I have 4 mana left, so I remand my Freeze, and freeze him in response to the incinerator. Who dies first? or is it a draw?

thanks

The way that this would work, if Gempalm Incinerator -could- target a player, is this.

1. You cast a full-deck Brain Freeze, targeting your opponent.
2. Either with the storm trigger on the stack, or all copies of the brain freeze on the stack, your opponent cycles Gempalm Incinerator. The Cycling ability of Gempalm is put on to the stack. Then, before either player gets priority, the triggered ability of "When you cycle Gempalm Incinerator," is put on the stack. Assume Gempalm Incinerator reads "When you cycle Gempalm Incinerator, High Tide loses."

Our stack at this point looks like this: Brain Freeze, Storm Trigger/Freeze Copies, Cycling of Incinerator, When-you-cycle trigger.

3. You Remand your original Brain Freeze, and then play Brain Freeze again.
4. The storm trigger on the second brain freeze resolves. Then all your brain freeze copies and the original Brain Freeze resolve, decking him.
5. The When-you-cycle trigger resolves, killing you. The next thing on the stack would be the Cycling itself, which would draw the card to kill your opponent, but it'll never happen, because you're dead.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Nantuko, he was planning to use the draw caused by cycling to kill him.


:eek: wow.. I am truely an idiot!! Thanks for the heads up! :cry:

[GreenOne]

The way that this would work, if Gempalm Incinerator -could- target a player, is this.


Maybe there was a Mogg Maniac involved... (WTF??) :tongue:

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Maybe there was a Mogg Maniac involved... (WTF??) :tongue:

Mogg Maniac FTW! Gee, good times can be had with that card.

[Angel of Despair]

Has anyone thought about putting Gaea's Blessing in the sideboard? It would have worked for me in the mirror match, had I not flipped out and scooped. I was not prepared for the mirror...I had no Idea what to do.. but maybe I will actually practice the mirror. either way..just another silly suggestion from me.

AoD

[herbig]

Blessing does allow you to go infinite, as useless as that is. I think breaking it out at a major tournament where you expect a few mirror matches would definately work due to the surprise factor. It likely wouldn't catch on because of this though.

[Deep6er]

Blessing does allow you to go infinite, as useless as that is. I think breaking it out at a major tournament where you expect a few mirror matches would definately work due to the surprise factor. It likely wouldn't catch on because of this though.

Everytime you post, I hate you. Anyway, Blessing is a terrible idea in this deck as Flash of Insight + Gaea's Blessing = Not a Combo. Also, the only way you have to get it out of your hand is Brainstorm + Fetchland and that's not always reliable. Seriously Herbig, quit being retarded.

P.S. It's cool Herbig, I'm not INCREDIBLY pissed at you. :)

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

It seems as though the tension is pretty high between you both lol. You should just settle this in a best of three rounds of the Solidarity Mirror. Yes, best of THRESS rounds, not games. This will show who the true guru of the deck is. And then... perhaps the winner will play Ewokslayer and get their face smashed in!? :wink:

[to1701]

I got my butt handed to me today, playing Solidarity. I didn't know what I was going to face. First time I play at this cardstore as well. I lost to threshold very badly after drawing no land , mulling to 5 once as well.

I lost to Fish. I really, really hate fish. It also had a sideboard to counter every freaking spell I played. Of course , I couldn't counter the damn standstills, and when his cracked , it just gave him the nutz. ( counterspell, force, counterspell, nevermind everything he had in hand. Very difficult match, also getting manascrewed that game, very bad luck today. But in the end of it all, Next time i go , I will be running a Pikula deck instead. Solidarity just stood no chance there. Any tips on playing against Fish with 4 REB's, 4 Counterspell, 4 Force , and 4 Standstills?

[Deep6er]

I got my butt handed to me today, playing Solidarity. I didn't know what I was going to face. First time I play at this cardstore as well. I lost to threshold very badly after drawing no land , mulling to 5 once as well.

I lost to Fish. I really, really hate fish. It also had a sideboard to counter every freaking spell I played. Of course , I couldn't counter the damn standstills, and when his cracked , it just gave him the nutz. ( counterspell, force, counterspell, nevermind everything he had in hand. Very difficult match, also getting manascrewed that game, very bad luck today. But in the end of it all, Next time i go , I will be running a Pikula deck instead. Solidarity just stood no chance there. Any tips on playing against Fish with 4 REB's, 4 Counterspell, 4 Force , and 4 Standstills?


Yeah, it's actually reasonably simple as well. Game 1 use must counters, then Remand them out from under him. Turnabout him at end of turn. Don't get mana screwed (that's a big one). Don't play a strictly worse deck (Deadguy). Fish's clock isn't all that impressive. Use what cards you can to gain an insight into both their hand (Peek) and their deck (Brain Freeze). It's also important to have Flash. Unless their clock is BLAZINGLY fast (which means they have no cards in hand) you have the time to sculpt a hand which contains both must counters and ways to answer those counters. Does he counter High Tide? If so, then just use those to draw out counters. The game probably lasts until turn 7 or 8 or so, so you can use multiple methods to deal with things. Also, given his sideboard, board in Twincasts. They will be outstandingly strong (if played right). Also, and I might have mentioned this before, don't play a strictly worse deck. I also mentioned that the strictly worse deck is Deadguy. Now, I don't want there to be confusion here. Deadguy sucks. Seriously. It is quite possibly the single worst (known or at least talked about) deck I have ever seen. So, in conclusion, use the strengths that Solidarity has, and don't play strictly worse decks, which, we clarified, were Deadguy.

[laststepdown]

It's truth. Pre-disrupt, Deadguy was a threat against Solidarity-since its inclusion, the match heavily favors against Deadguy. It his all their must-counters (who doesn't cast Hymn @ 2 mana?) and nets a card.

[to1701]

Well, I appreciate the input, I got a big mana screw against the fish guy, wich , just is no good, I went to turn 8 before feeling good, sculpting my hand, and all he did was outplay me with the stack. Either I suck, or he just had an answer for everything. I did get a high tide to resolve, but he had a bunch of duel lands that included islands. So it only helped him counter what he needed to. It was very irritating. First time I play a fish deck in legacy, and I was just not happy losing to the faggy conclave. I'd play meditate, he would counterspell, I play remand , he force of will, I force of will (losing a card to keep going with , he tapped to play force of will, and finally, I would reset. He played a counterspell. I ran out of mana, his full hand of counterspells against mine, problem is I start playing spells first, and just went nowhere fast. Oh well better luck next time. I think based on what I saw today, I would have better luck with a Pikula deck, not that solidarity is bad, it's just they are going to be prepared for me, and no one there was prepared for anything like b/w confidant. I am not saying Solidarity is a worse deck, just not good against what I saw there. Everyone sideboarding in REB and other hate just is very annoying. Especially , me being the only person playing Solidarity.

I did run two twincasts and two flash, the mana screw just doesn't help, opening hand, two fetchlands, and two brainstorm, seeing no more till turn six , just is not right.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I did run two twincasts and two flash, the mana screw just doesn't help, opening hand, two fetchlands, and two brainstorm, seeing no more till turn six , just is not right.

Hey... that kind of sounds like my match with Ewoslayer:tongue: At any rate, Deadguy is in fact TERRIBLE. Trust me, I played the deck for a while, and it is just utterly bad! I must give props to Piluka for piloting such a deck to the finals at GP Philly, but you have to admit he had some good draws and some good matchups. Plus, MD engineered plague was spicy. However, with the exception of that finish, when has Deadguy EVERY done anything!?!? Countless numbers of kids made the deck after Pikula's run, and everyone ate shit with the deck. People's arguement is that it is good against Solidarity. That's why a little card called disrupt comes in, and ruins Deadguy's day. Since the addition of disrupt, I have yet to lose a match to this awful deck. All in all to1701, don't get frustrated with Solidarity, just because a few of your hands aren't optimal, don't lose hope. It would truely depress me to witness you ditch such a godly deck for a pile of horse crap.

[to1701]

Hey... that kind of sounds like my match with Ewoslayer:tongue: At any rate, Deadguy is in fact TERRIBLE. Trust me, I played the deck for a while, and it is just utterly bad! I must give props to Piluka for piloting such a deck to the finals at GP Philly, but you have to admit he had some good draws and some good matchups. Plus, MD engineered plague was spicy. However, with the exception of that finish, when has Deadguy EVERY done anything!?!? Countless numbers of kids made the deck after Pikula's run, and everyone ate shit with the deck. People's arguement is that it is good against Solidarity. That's why a little card called disrupt comes in, and ruins Deadguy's day. Since the addition of disrupt, I have yet to lose a match to this awful deck. All in all to1701, don't get frustrated with Solidarity, just because a few of your hands aren't optimal, don't lose hope. It would truely depress me to witness you ditch such a godly deck for a pile of horse crap.

I am far from giving up on it. I just think deadguy will work where I will be playing. No one else is sideboarding disrupt, nor misdirect. (Plus next week , I know everyone will try harder to hate me out). The guy playing a goblins deck sure wasn't prepared for main decked plagues , and the threshold player, well , he main decks armageddon. So that hurt when he played that, 2nd game, and I had nothing to counter it, and I watched him, not sideboard anything in going into game 2. So playing Solidarity against a field I knew nothing about( a whole 10 people), can be hard to just walk into. But now I do know. I learned fish is not fun to play against, and a GU/w thresh deck can be played around especially after boarding in disrupt. But I had a really bad day.

Any way the deck was

4 Reset
4 High Tide
3 Turnabout
2 Opt
2 Peek
4 Force of Will
4 Remand
4 Brainstorm
4 Meditate
4 Impulse
3 Cunning Wish
1 Flash of Insight
1 Twincast
10 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Brainfreeze

Board
4 Disrupt
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Echoing Truth
1 Stroke of Genious
1 Turnabout
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Twincast
1 Flash of Insight
1 Brainfreeze

[PunkRocker1134]

It seems as though the tension is pretty high between you both lol. You should just settle this in a best of three rounds of the Solidarity Mirror. Yes, best of THRESS rounds, not games. This will show who the true guru of the deck is. And then... perhaps the winner will play Ewokslayer and get their face smashed in!? :wink:

Screw that, you have them play as many games until one of them passes out. Last man standing in the Solidarity mirrror wins.

[Lukas Preuss]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30907&d=1157909112

I'm not sure on how good this card will be, but it has the same CC as Impulse and lets you see five cards... you can choose a land, as well (which is the reason that Impulse is better than Peer through Depths). I'm not entirely sure if it would be playable in Solidarity, but it's worth mentioning, at least.

[Kadaj]

If not almost entirely because Impulse leaves you in complete control of what card ends up in your hand, whereas with Truth or Tale your opponent can possibly deny you the card you need, think Impulse remains the better card. It's still worth testing though.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Impulse is very nearly strictly better than Truth or Tale, since it gives you the best card out of the top 4 (without showing the opponent), instead of the second best card out of the top 5.

I think it's already been fairly well established that Solidarity doesn't need any more 2cc dig spells, so we can dismiss Truth or Tale pretty easily. Telling Time is a better card, and it doesn't make the cut.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30907&d=1157909112

I'm not sure on how good this card will be, but it has the same CC as Impulse and lets you see five cards... you can choose a land, as well (which is the reason that Impulse is better than Peer through Depths). I'm not entirely sure if it would be playable in Solidarity, but it's worth mentioning, at least.

This card seems very shaky... Impulsing, you are guranteed to choose your fate, and your opponent doesn't see the cards, or what you chose. THAT alone, is a huge plus over Truth or Tale. In additon, everyone can remember those random impulses that were like 3x land and a good card. With Truth or Tale, I can see you getting shafted way to many times to make the card half way decent. IMPULSE all the way in my opinion.


@to1701= I see a few flaws in your current build. You should have 2x Flash of Insight MD, not one. The card is just too ridiculous to have one MD one SB. Also, you shouldn't be running 8 fetchlands, as that seems like a little too much damage to the dome. You should run 12 islands and 3x of each of the two fetchlands. Yup.

[to1701]

This card seems very shaky... Impulsing, you are guranteed to choose your fate, and your opponent doesn't see the cards, or what you chose. THAT alone, is a huge plus over Truth or Tale. In additon, everyone can remember those random impulses that were like 3x land and a good card. With Truth or Tale, I can see you getting shafted way to many times to make the card half way decent. IMPULSE all the way in my opinion.


@to1701= I see a few flaws in your current build. You should have 2x Flash of Insight MD, not one. The card is just too ridiculous to have one MD one SB. Also, you shouldn't be running 8 fetchlands, as that seems like a little too much damage to the dome. You should run 12 islands and 3x of each of the two fetchlands. Yup.


Running 8 fetch has yet to kill me. Not getting enough land has, and maybe fetching out too many is part of the problem. The damage taken is negligable. I just don't know why I would want to run to flash over a twincast. Twincast is so stellar. The flash seems to be a card I am not quite sure on. It's great, once I got a ton of mana, and a lot of blue cards in my graveyard. Other that that, it has very limited use. (Unless I am playing it wrong.) I have only been playing Solidarity so long.


Impulse is very nearly strictly better than Truth or Tale, since it gives you the best card out of the top 4 (without showing the opponent), instead of the second best card out of the top 5.

I think it's already been fairly well established that Solidarity doesn't need any more 2cc dig spells, so we can dismiss Truth or Tale pretty easily. Telling Time is a better card, and it doesn't make the cut.

The thing is with truth or tale, you easily could pull two of the card you need, seeing that you choose the piles, it is likely you will still get two cards to keep the combo going, anyway, making it harder for your opponent to choose the pile. The card is worth some playtesting for sure. If you draw no land, you are going to get two cards no matter what, versus one with impulse.

[Nightmare]

Running 8 fetch has yet to kill me. Not getting enough land has, and maybe fetching out too many is part of the problem. The damage taken is negligable. I just don't know why I would want to run to flash over a twincast. Twincast is so stellar. The flash seems to be a card I am not quite sure on. It's great, once I got a ton of mana, and a lot of blue cards in my graveyard. Other that that, it has very limited use. (Unless I am playing it wrong.) I have only been playing Solidarity so long.Put simply, you're wrong. No one is suggesting cutting Twincast for Flash, but you should have access to two Flash of insight MD. A Flash in the yard effectively gives you an additional card in hand, and having the card allows you to do stupid good things like Brainfreezing yourself to hit Flash and continuing to combo. It's too good to run less than 2.


The thing is with truth or tale, you easily could pull two of the card you need, seeing that you choose the piles, it is likely you will still get two cards to keep the combo going, anyway, making it harder for your opponent to choose the pile. The card is worth some playtesting for sure. If you draw no land, you are going to get two cards no matter what, versus one with impulse.Truth or Tale, regardless of the mana cost, is never going to give you what you want. You get 1 card out of the top 5. If you're dead set on it, run Peer Through the Depths. Same dig distance, same amount of cards to hand. Still worse than Impulse.

[Ewokslayer]

Running 8 fetch has yet to kill me. Not getting enough land has, and maybe fetching out too many is part of the problem. The damage taken is negligable. I just don't know why I would want to run to flash over a twincast. Twincast is so stellar. The flash seems to be a card I am not quite sure on. It's great, once I got a ton of mana, and a lot of blue cards in my graveyard. Other that that, it has very limited use. (Unless I am playing it wrong.) I have only been playing Solidarity so long.
The thinning from fetchlands is negligible. That is why running 8 is of no use. Its only use is shuffling after a brainstorm or impluse. For such a small use running 8 of them creating situations where you can get stifled or the life loss is too great isn't worth it.
Flash would replace the 4th Meditate.
It does sound like you aren't using Flash correctly. You make it sound like getting blue cards in your graveyard is difficult. That is what the deck does.
Flash has great synergy with Brain Freeze. It can often be used in conjunction with Brain Freeze to stack your entire deck.



The thing is with truth or tale, you easily could pull two of the card you need, seeing that you choose the piles, it is likely you will still get two cards to keep the combo going, anyway, making it harder for your opponent to choose the pile. The card is worth some playtesting for sure. If you draw no land, you are going to get two cards no matter what, versus one with impulse.

I am very confused.
Truth or Tale reads:
Reveal the top five cards of your library and separate them into two piles. An opponent choose one of those piles. Put a card from the chosen pile into your hand, then put all other cards revealed this way on the bottom of your library in any order.
How do you get more than one card ever?
Obfuscate Freely is 100% correct, Truth or Tale will only every get you the 2nd best card in any situation while impulse gets you the best. That makes for one crappy card selection spell.

[to1701]

Yes , I missed the part where Truth or Tale lets you choose only one card from the pile. And that alone makes it a steaming pile. I misread the card, my bad. I guess I will just run 6 fetch and see , I used to , and with 8 I am not really seeing much of a difference, so I guess why bother. Stifle is not a card I see too often, most people hold that for the freeze, wich is funny. I can only see stacking my deck after I have already played a ton of blue spells, merely by that point, just needing a brainfreeze to mill away. Usually my wish target at that point is soggy (stroke of genious) anyway. I have never actually seen the deck in action, by anyone else, except when I play it. No one else I play with has the resets. But I digress. I have read about how good flash can be, I just am not sure I have had the opportunity to be able to use it to it's full extent. Maybe I don't know how.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I have read about how good flash can be, I just am not sure I have had the opportunity to be able to use it to it's full extent. Maybe I don't know how.

One way to abuse Flash of Insight, which I often do, is to have a flash in your graveyard (or mill one into your graveyard via Brainfreeze) and cast a Brainfreeze and figure out how many storm copies to send at your deck. With a little thought, you can just mill cards one freeze at a time until you know you have more blue cards in your graveyard than in your library. Then you simply pay 2, flash the card back and proceed to do stupid things and stack your deck. You just take a Meditate or a draw spell, then stack all of your insane cards on the top of your library. There you go, Flash of Insight if retarded. There are soo many other broken uses for the card that I won't bother going into.

(Note: Be careful when freezing yourself, as you don't want to mill all of your Cunning Wishes into your graveyard. It is definetly nice to have a Cunning Wish in hand when you begin to freeze yourself.

[parallax]

The play that a lot of players miss if they haven't seen anyone else run the deck is that Flash of Insight turns Brain Freeze into a card draw spell, making BF not a dead card even if it's not lethal. If you run out of gas but have a BF, you can target yourself until you put FoI in your graveyard. At that point, you should have enough blue cards to flash back and find what you need.

[AnwarA101]

The play that a lot of players miss if they haven't seen anyone else run the deck is that Flash of Insight turns Brain Freeze into a card draw spell, making BF not a dead card even if it's not lethal. If you run out of gas but have a BF, you can target yourself until you put FoI in your graveyard. At that point, you should have enough blue cards to flash back and find what you need.

While this a nice out, its unfortunate how many times I see a Solidarity player resort to this because they fizzle so often. Shouldn't this be a last resort and hopefully avoided since you don't fizzle?

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

While this a nice out, its unfortunate how many times I see a Solidarity player resort to this because they fizzle so often. Shouldn't this be a last resort and hopefully avoided since you don't fizzle?

In some cases yes, but I often find myself Freezing myself if I am in the middle of going off with Cunning Wish in hand. If I can ensure myself stacking my deck, that is GG right there. As long as Cunning Wish is in my hand, I have no problem freezing myself in order to stack my deck. But yes, I see what your saying in terms of being desperate with Brainfreezing yourself. If that's your only out, then you could be in trouble if you remove all of your Cunning Wishes or draw/untap spells.

[Ewokslayer]

While this a nice out, its unfortunate how many times I see a Solidarity player resort to this because they fizzle so often. Shouldn't this be a last resort and hopefully avoided since you don't fizzle?

It depends alot on why you are freezing yourself.
I will often use Brain Freeze mid combo to make Brainstorm nuts. Putting land and Flash of Insight into the yard while drawing three cards from Brainstorm is great. It also makes Opt and Peek not suck post Brainstorm.

[Lukas Preuss]

I just noticed that Gearhart's most recent decklist (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=18655) doesn't run Disrupt in the board anymore. Instead, he runs 4 (!) Twincasts between main and sideboard. Was this a meta call since Deadguy Ale (or other black based disruption) didn't make a strong showing at the tournament but Solidarity did?

[Ewokslayer]

I just noticed that Gearhart's most recent decklist (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=18655) doesn't run Disrupt in the board anymore. Instead, he runs 4 (!) Twincasts between main and sideboard. Was this a meta call since Deadguy Ale (or other black based disruption) didn't make a strong showing at the tournament but Solidarity did?

That and Disrupts weren't that useful against Deadguy. They do change how the matchup plays out but not the results in terms of percentages.

[Happy Gilmore]

Did you and Deep6er ever test Divert in the board? Its probably a house against deadguy and might even be good enough to be boarded in against grow. It also doesnt seem bad against the non-goblin red decks.

[herbig]

Angel's Grace W
Instant
Split Second
You can't lose the game this turn, and your opponents can't win the game this turn. Until end of turn, damage that would reduce your life total to less then one reduces it to one instead.

I'm very afraid of this card since it doesn't allow you to wait until lethal damage, plus Blessing and Grace is almost unbeatable. Any thoughts?

[Lukas Preuss]

Hm, at first I was pretty shocked, as well. But if you think about it: this card is white, the color that sucks the most against Solidarity. White (Angel Stompy, Wombat, Landstill) usually gives you enough time to set up a good combo hand, which should be enough to Stroke them to death (so that they die at the beginning of their next turn).

It does looks pretty scary, though. This could become a serious problem for Solidarity. :(

[Watcher487]

I'm very afraid of this card since it doesn't allow you to wait until lethal damage, plus Blessing and Grace is almost unbeatable. Any thoughts?

It's called run Stifle in the SB. Anyway what White deck is going to run this along with 3+ Blessings anyway? Landstill? Thresh? Angel Stompy?

Anyway how is this any different that having someone run Abeyance and Chant? If someone was running this thier clock is going to be slow regardless of what else is going on. With the fact that you also run Turnabout you don't need to worry since you just Tap thier Attackers and have them go into thier first Meditate Turn and Draw themselves out.

This is nothing compared to them actually making a Split Second Abeyance or Orim's Chant.

[Ewokslayer]

I'm very afraid of this card since it doesn't allow you to wait until lethal damage, plus Blessing and Grace is almost unbeatable. Any thoughts?

The combo might and I stress might cause you to loss game 2 because it is unexpected but you have a couple of things going for you
1) you almost 100% won Game 1 if they are boarding 6-7 cards that don't actually do anything but stop Solidarity, (and only Solidarity)
2) The "combo" doesn't hinder or stop the Solidarity player from going off and Stroking the player for their deck.
3) You play Peek so there is still a large possibility that you won't be surprised game 2 and plan your combo accordingly.

Pretty much the card forces Solidarity players to not develop the bad habit of wanting for attackers to be declared before comboing.
Turnabout > this card.

I would be much more afraid of a deck bringing in 7 cards that are actually good. (Meddling Mage, Rule of Law, Glowrider, Sphere of Resistance, Chalice, Mana Maze)

[quicksilver]

Has anyone not realized that to win around this that means making them draw their deck, but not killing them at that moment, which means they just drew more of these and can play them during their upkeep not to die. And as it is many decks SB 6-7 cards that don't do anything but stop solidarity, how is this much worse?

[Bane of the Living]

Daves right, Angel Stompy might've got their tier one W.M.D. The fact that you can put it on Iso Scepter is just mind blowing.

[URABAHN]

Daves right, Angel Stompy might've got their tier one W.M.D. The fact that you can put it on Iso Scepter is just mind blowing.

What in the world does that have to do with Solidarity?

[Bane of the Living]

White aggro suddenly went from a bye to dare I say a challenge?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I would be much more afraid of a deck bringing in 7 cards that are actually good. (Meddling Mage, Rule of Law, Glowrider, Sphere of Resistance, Chalice, Mana Maze)

Quoted for mega-truth.


On a side note, check out this card;

Think Twice
1U
Instant
Draw a card
Flashback 2U


I really, really like the idea of running this card in the Impulse slot. Card advantage > Scry, basically. The card gives you your cantrip on turns two and three, is much more solid against control and discard, and makes randomly Brain Freezing yourself into a draw spell much more reliably than the current method. While this, like any card manipulation spell, probably isn't obviously good or not to most people, I really advocate testing the card out, as I think you'll find it to be very strong in actual play as I have.

First person to suggest running Inspiration instead gets a free smack to the head and my pointing out that by this logic, there's no difference between, say, Avalanche Riders costing 3R with Echo or it's simply costing 6RR, with the difference that in this case you can pay the "Echo" whenever you feel like it.

Also, the artwork is clearly a tribute to the, "It's not fair! There was time now!" guy from that Twilight Zone episode, which I think we can all clearly agree is the theme we're going for with this deck.

[quicksilver]

Think Twice
1U
Instant
Draw a card
Flashback 2U

It seems kind of poor, why not just run Inspiration then, it costs less mana for the same number of cards, plus it can target your opponent to make them draw after you freeze them.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It seems kind of poor, why not just run Inspiration then, it costs less mana for the same number of cards, plus it can target your opponent to make them draw after you freeze them.


By this logic, there's no difference between Deranged Hermit's actual cost or if it cost 8GG. It's ignoring that it's easier to make small investments than to pay all at once up front, or that you might simply only want the first part, especially when you're trying to accelerate into your third and fourth land. It's also ignoring the Brain Freezing yourself advantage. The point at which you're comboing off it is functionally like Inspiration with a 1 mana uncounterable cantrip attached, but this is generally the point at which you have plenty of mana... and if you're comboing off against control where mana might be limited, you're in the matchup it's best in anyway. The only real disadvantage is it's a bit worse at finding the third land and it's less of a combo while going off with Brainstorm, but it produces tangible CA as a benefit.


Also, you might want to watch out next time I see you at the frog. Just saying.

[Ewokslayer]

It seems kind of poor, why not just run Inspiration then, it costs less mana for the same number of cards, plus it can target your opponent to make them draw after you freeze them.

Looks like someone wins a free smack to the head.

As for the actual card I have a few problems with the card.

1) It can't dig at all.
2) It costs alot to draw a single card.
3) The Flashback is nice but certainly not amazing considering 1 and 2.
Its inability to dig stops it from being all that good a hit off of a Brain Freeze.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Think Twice is close enough to being strictly worse than Flash of Insight to dismiss it.

If you want more flashback draw spells, up the Flash count.

Besides that, cutting Impulse cannot be correct. Finding High Tide is too important, and Impulse is better at doing that than any other card in the deck.

[herbig]

Think Twice is pretty much a reverse Flash, with 2 then 3 mana rather than 3 and 2, with the added benefit of flash occasionally stacking your deck. Impulse is still way better. What does everyone thing about the 1UU bounce spell with split second? Three mana is pretty hefty but it would be amazing against Mage and Arcance Lab.

[Parcher]

What does everyone thing about the 1UU bounce spell with split second? Three mana is pretty hefty but it would be amazing against Mage and Arcance Lab.


I have actually been thinking about Wipe Away quite a bit, and it worries me. Specifically in the case of Meddling Mage and Arcane Lab(Rule of Law does the same thing, but is usually played in a different type of deck).

It forces the player to stop Cunning Wish, as once it resolves they are out of options. Considering the decks using these two cards(excluding Faerie Stompy) usually have a slower clock for Solidarity to deal with, an EOT Cunning Wish becomes a must counter. If the Solidarity player has 6-8 turns to optimize their hand, which is usually the case against Aggro-Conrtol, I am afraid they can easily begin to go off, find another wish, and go off on their turn.

Typically the Mage chain goes: High Tide, Cunning Wish, Brain Freeze. Wipe Away changes this dynamic, as one Cunning Wish allows the Solidarity player to bounce the Mage, and go off regardless of opposing countermagic. Basically, it forces two Mages to be on the table to even inconvienience the Tide player unless Wish is named with the first. And then the clock is usually too slow for this to matter.

With Lab, there are no options. Cunning Wish has to be countered, or Solidarity just wins. I don't currently see a deck in Legacy running enough Countermagic+a Clock to insure this every turn.

[Obfuscate Freely]

The only prominent deck that runs Mage right now is UGW Gro, and I can tell you from experience that Gro of any color beats Solidarity with or without Mages.

Not that countering a Wish is significantly more difficult than countering the bounce spell, anyway.

Wipe Away is only interesting if you consider actually boarding in a copy or two. At least that way it will theoretically steal wins from bad Gro players who use Mage as a crutch instead of a tool.

[herbig]

Hey Gearhart, what was your decklist? I'm interested if anything has changed lately and how Solidarity players faired at the dual for duals.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Hey Gearhart, what was your decklist? I'm interested if anything has changed lately and how Solidarity players faired at the dual for duals.

As far as I know, gearhart ran the usual list, although only he would know for certain. Anyways, as for how well the other Solidarity players faired, not so well. Gearhart was the ONLY Solidarity player to Top 8 on either of the days. There was 0 Solidarity in Top 8 on day two. Goblins and Thresh and Solidarity were crawling all over the place, and on day 1 in the first round, there were at least three Solidarity mirror matches going on. For the most part on day 1, the Solidarity players knocked eachother off and Gearhart was the only one left standing. As for day 2, there were 0 Solidarity mirror matches as far as I know, but alot of the players got knocked out by the increased number of Thresh and Gro decks. Personally, I only played against Gro, Solidarity, and 1 Red Death and 2 Eon Blue Apocolypse, both days included. I played against three Gro/Thresh builds in a row on day 2. A Solidarity even lost to 43 land in the Swiss. Overall, there was alot of Solidarity, especially day 1, but only Gearhart was the master.

[URABAHN]

Gearhart did run the standard

Instants
2 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash Of Insight
4 Force Of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
2 Opt
2 Peek
4 Remand
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
1 Twincast

Basic Lands
12 Island

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
2 Brain Freeze
1 Chain Of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
4 Hydroblast
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke Of Genius
1 Turnabout
3 Twincast

NANTUKO_SHADY did fairly well both days. Krieger did fairly well Day 1. I went 4-2-1 Day 1, and 3-3 Day 2 with Solidarity. I never won the mirror 3x Day 1 vs. Parallax (Loss), Krieger (Loss), and NANTUKO_SHADY (Draw).

[TripleAgent]

I went 5-2 with shit breakers, 11th day one.

[Reagens]

I played a tournament this weekend making top eight and losing to Aluren in the quarter finals with a list matching David's but without 4 remands. Instead I played 2 Twincasts extra, one brain freeze and one snap. The sideboard was experimental and very sub-par. I played 2 divert among others. I boarded them in on a few occasions but never got a real advantage out of them.
I think in that for me that was a near optimal build. I cut remand because it more often than not was two mana to draw one card and only postponed the enivitable early game. Mid combo it was a liability because it only gives you the top card and I always seem to be running out of decent draw options.
In hindsight I would try and put three copies on the sideboard because I believe it could have saved me against aluren. Further more because a lot of combo was played I think of having a copy of stifle in the sideboard.
On another note I would like to ask if stacking your whole deck with flash of insight after brainfreezing yourself is a play you regularly do, or is it best reserved for desperate situations?
Another issue was reset. If I play reset with 5 lands untapped, tapping two for reset itself. Can I give priority to my opponent and still tap the remaining three islands after my opponent decides not to counter/react? If so what would be the exact reference in the rules (the number is fine)? If not, never mind.

[Ewokslayer]

I think in that for me that was a near optimal build. I cut remand because it more often than not was two mana to draw one card and only postponed the enivitable early game. That is the point of the card. To postpone the early game until Solidarity is in a position to win.
Mid combo it was a liability because it only gives you the top card and I always seem to be running out of decent draw options. That is true, Remand sucks mid combo though it does have nice synergy with Brain Freeze.


On another note I would like to ask if stacking your whole deck with flash of insight after brainfreezing yourself is a play you regularly do, or is it best reserved for desperate situations? I rarely find it necessary to freeze myself to the point that I can completely stack my deck. When forced to freeze myself I usually interupt the freezes once I hit Flash of Insight. That way I don't accidently remove too many cards that I need/want. Plus with the copies of Brain Freeze still on the stack you can make Brainstorm into Ancestral, Freeze away the unknown part of the deck assuming the part that is stacked has all the cards that you need, Remand the original to draw a card and reuse as a kill, and freeze your self more until you hit another Flash in you stall again.


Another issue was reset. If I play reset with 5 lands untapped, tapping two for reset itself. Can I give priority to my opponent and still tap the remaining three islands after my opponent decides not to counter/react? If so what would be the exact reference in the rules (the number is fine)? If not, never mind.

That doesn't work.

[Reagens]

That is the point of the card. To postpone the early game until Solidarity is in a position to win.


I agree that's the point but in my experience with remand I lost those games anyway 90 percent of the time.
Maybe it's a metagame call. We have very little white ******** here and a lot of combo. I played against tendrils, some sort of brainfreeze deck with infinite divining top and finally Aluren. Fourth round I I.D.'ed against white ********. Eventually I lost to Aluren in the quarters.
What in my opinion is a very nice addition is the one bounce spell main board. It is very seldomly completely dead (because in the worst case it has the untap effect).
My suggestion would be to cut one remand and replace it with one bounce spell. Any toughts on that?

[herbig]

Freezing yourself to stack the deck isn't a priority, but it is one of the many tools the deck has to save itself. If it isn't necessary, don't go for it, since there is always the marginal chance you will remove your win conditions.

I think the addition of maindeck bounce is unnecessary. The deck is pretty streamlined and able to deal with any situation that comes up game one because of Cunning Wish. Maindeck bounce instead of more search or the incredible stall tactic of Remand would make the deck weaker.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

My suggestion would be to cut one remand and replace it with one bounce spell. Any toughts on that?

Wait a second, cutting one Remand is almost hypocritical to what you stated in your previous posts. You claim that having Remand late game is almost a dead card, (which is not always true). If you cut the Remand count to three, your just slimming your chances of having it in your opening hand, which is usually the most adventageous time to have the card. Remand is retarded if your on the play and Remanding their Hymn To Tourach, Survival of the Fittest, Meddling Mage, etc. etc. The card literally says (you tap out, I draw a card, and I get to drop more lands and set up to smash your face in!) The maindeck bounce spell seems really, really unnecessary. Not to mention, you said your metagame is full of combo, which means wouldn't you rather have Remand over a random bounce spell? In the Solidarity Mirror or against any other control decks, you can obviousely use the excellent synergy with Brainfreeze, or you can use it to flat out control the stack. You remand your High Tide or any other spell to your hand after they try and counter it and then just re-cast it. I tried cutting 1x Remand for 1x Twincast at the Mana Leak Open and I regret it for sure. I would NEVER think about running Solidarity without my 4x Remand. And like Herbig said, almost any situation can be dealt with a Cunning Wish. So in short, run 4x Remand and you won't regret it!

[JZ23]

So how does everyone board against goblins, homebrew, UGw and UGr thresh? Any difference if you're on the play or draw? What if you know goblins has 4 chalice of the void to bring in?

[Reagens]

[QUOTE=NANTUKO_SHADY;94967]Wait a second, cutting one Remand is almost hypocritical to what you stated in your previous posts. You claim that having Remand late game is almost a dead card, (which is not always true). If you cut the Remand count to three, your just slimming your chances of having it in your opening hand, which is usually the most adventageous time to have the card.

Almost I guess. My reason for playing three would be that I wouldn't under any circumstance want to have more than one in my opening hand.
Anyhow I think it's back to testing for me. Maybe I gave up too early on the remands.
Something else. If you get a hand of 6 cards because of a mulligan with 2 lands, 2 reset and 2 impulse (the point is that there is no CC 1 draw spell in your hand), knowing that you opponent plays cabal therapy do you keep or mulligan into 5? Props would be that you at least have two lands to start with and some decent card once you hit two lands. On the other hand a flashbacked therapy costs 4 cards. I have mixed results testing this.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

So how does everyone board against goblins, homebrew, UGw and UGr thresh? Any difference if you're on the play or draw? What if you know goblins has 4 chalice of the void to bring in?

Against Goblins, you generally board out 4x Remand and bring in 4x Hydroblast. However, I was thinking about if you lose game 1, to board out 2x Remand and 2x Peek in exchange for the 4x Hydroblasts. I haven't tried that yet, as taking out your early 1cc set-up spells can be risky, but it doesn't look too bad on paper. The 2x Remand left in just gives you more chances to slow your opponent down, which is crucial. But usually, I go -4x Remand and +4x Hydroblast. And if I know Goblins is bringing in 4x Chalice of the void, then I would probably side in my Echoing Truth, but I have yet to play against a Goblins player that tries that. Normally I see them bringing in Blast and Pyro Pillar.

If by Homebrew you mean Deadguy Ale, well that deck is horrible for 1. I used to board in 4x Disrupt, until I found out the deck was awful and all I had to do is win my first round or two and I wouldn't have to worry about seeing the deck. But if you insist on preparing for it or your metagame is full of it, then Disrupt is the best thing you can bring in against the deck.

Against U/G/W Thresh, you board out -4x Remand, -1x Meditate, -1x Turnabout (I think?) and bring in +3x Twincast, +2x Brainfreeze, +1x Echoing Truth (for Meddling Mage). Against U/G/R Thresh, the boarding plan is the same, except you keep in the Turnabout and don't bring in the Echoing Truth.

[Deep6er]

Against Goblins, you generally board out 4x Remand and bring in 4x Hydroblast. However, I was thinking about if you lose game 1, to board out 2x Remand and 2x Peek in exchange for the 4x Hydroblasts. I haven't tried that yet, as taking out your early 1cc set-up spells can be risky, but it doesn't look too bad on paper. The 2x Remand left in just gives you more chances to slow your opponent down, which is crucial. But usually, I go -4x Remand and +4x Hydroblast. And if I know Goblins is bringing in 4x Chalice of the void, then I would probably side in my Echoing Truth, but I have yet to play against a Goblins player that tries that. Normally I see them bringing in Blast and Pyro Pillar.

If by Homebrew you mean Deadguy Ale, well that deck is horrible for 1. I used to board in 4x Disrupt, until I found out the deck was awful and all I had to do is win my first round or two and I wouldn't have to worry about seeing the deck. But if you insist on preparing for it or your metagame is full of it, then Disrupt is the best thing you can bring in against the deck.

Against U/G/W Thresh, you board out -4x Remand, -1x Meditate, -1x Turnabout (I think?) and bring in +3x Twincast, +2x Brainfreeze, +1x Echoing Truth (for Meddling Mage). Against U/G/R Thresh, the boarding plan is the same, except you keep in the Turnabout and don't bring in the Echoing Truth.

You're Goblin board plan is incorrect. As most Goblin decks today are boarding more than four cards, it becomes necessary to slightly change the boarding strategy.

-1 Force of Will
-1 Remand
-1 Cunning Wish
-1 Twincast

Also, I'm pretty sure I told you this before. Anyway, the new overall strategy is to find Peek soon to decipher their FULL board plan. Also, try to sneak a peek as to how many cards you think they boarded in. Sometimes you can't, but give it a try anyway. Remember, information is key to winning this match. Don't delude yourself into thinking that it's a simple "combo vs. aggro" matchup. Both decks have tricks that they're trying to utilize. Information allows your tricks to one-up theirs.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Also, I'm pretty sure I told you this before.

Yeah.. you did tell me this like three times at the Duel for Duals, but I just have bad memory. :cool:

[JZ23]

Has anyone run into Angel's Grace yet? I played against a GBw Rock deck with 3 Angel's Grace and 2 Gaea's Blessing. It's pretty damn tough to win if they have a Grace in hand and 4 Witness, 4 Therapy, 4 Duress, etc. in their deck. Any thoughts?

[Lego]

It is even possible to win the game when your opponent has Angel's Grace in hand and Gaea's Blessing in their deck? Assuming no Blessing, you just mill them and they draw next turn and lose. But with Blessing, you can't mill them, so the best you can do is stroke them for everything, and pass the turn. I assume they've now got 3 more Angel's Grace in hand, so they cast one during their upkeep. Then they play a creature or two, beat you some more, and discard their hand. Next turn they play another Angel's Grace, and then Gaea's Blessing 3 Angel's Grace back to their library. Even if you can counter the Gaea's Blessing, they've got at least 2 and the Angel's Graces they have in hand leave them 3 turns to kick your ass.

[Citrus-God]

so what can this deck do to answer that then? I dont see why this deck is going to be dead now, because some cards were printed. I mean, it was the same for Survival before Needle was printed.

[JZ23]

You can still win even if they have a Grace in hand but it's still tough. As long as they don't have an untapped Bird, you can Turnabout them during their turn, forcing them to play their Grace (if they don't, then win). Then combo off during your turn and Stroke them while they're tapped out.

[Citrus-God]

You can still win even if they have a Grace in hand but it's still tough. As long as they don't have an untapped Bird, you can Turnabout them during their turn, forcing them to play their Grace (if they don't, then win). Then combo off during your turn and Stroke them while they're tapped out.

umm... I suppose with all that momentum left, you stroke them again on your turn with the help of Flash of Insight and Cunning Wish?

[Obfuscate Freely]

I guess the worst case scenario is that you don't know they have Angel's Grace until you Freeze them, and flip one into the graveyard between Blessings. In that situation, you have to figure out whether or not they are actually holding a copy of the card, since casting a lethal Stroke right into a Grace is probably going to be pretty bad, as LegoMan pointed out.

However, even that far into the combo, you can probably just Stroke yourself for 10-20 cards or so and then go off on a Meditate turn, Turnabouting the opponent's creatures/lands as needed.

Of course, if you know about Grace before you start going off, you can preempt it with Turnabout. I think the biggest effect the card will have on Solidarity is to make Peek more important than it already was against white decks.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

You can still win even if they have a Grace in hand but it's still tough. As long as they don't have an untapped Bird, you can Turnabout them during their turn, forcing them to play their Grace (if they don't, then win). Then combo off during your turn and Stroke them while they're tapped out.

That seems fine, but it makes Reset less useful in that scenario. Angel's Grace doesn't make Solidarity dead by any means. It is just simply a speed bump that we have to drive over. It is annoying yes, especially with Blessing, but it doesn't make us auto-lose. If we can just all play heads up and predict if they run Angel's Grace/Peek into it, we should be fine. Mainly the players with the least information on their opponents are going to be the ones that will struggle the most. Peek= Incredible.

[Reagens]

I have a question for you guys. Something that came up in my last tournament (which I won). In the semi finals I had to play against a landstill deck playing rule of law AND arcane laboratory in the sideboard. First game I win rather easily.
Second game I can't avoid having an arcane lab on the table (he countered my force). Altough I was able to play cunning wish for chain of vapor, peek in the next turn and then vapor in his turn(because he had no counters and didn't draw one obviously), after him trying to resolve a meddling mage. I think we can agree that I was very lucky to have won that game.
The question is because in two weeks there are belgian nationals if it would be feasible to put a wipe away in the sideboard. My main reason would be because there are two landstill decks that make top 4 virtually every time. If yes what card would be best to replace?
I am fully aware that I still need to resolve a cunning wish if I let it in my sideboard and that a good landstill player counters the wish (I suppose). But since I am known for playing solidarity without wipe away I am quite sure they might let it by.
Suggestions?
What is your boarding plan against landstill? I bring in all my twincasts and brainfreezes. But I am not sure if I side out correctly. In the second game I went off in my own turn so I was quite happy having turnabouts.

[Eldariel]

I have a question for you guys. Something that came up in my last tournament (which I won). In the semi finals I had to play against a landstill deck playing rule of law AND arcane laboratory in the sideboard. First game I win rather easily.
Second game I can't avoid having a arcane lab on the table (he countered my force). Altough I was able to play cunning wish for chain of vapor, peek in the next turn and then vapor in his turn(because he had no counters and didn't draw one obviously), after him trying to resolve a meddling mage. I think we can agree that I was very lucky to have won that game.
The question is because in two weeks there are belgian nationals if it would be feasible to put a wipe away in the sideboard. My main reason would be because there are two landstill decks that make top 4 virtually every time. If yes what card would be best to replace?
I am fully aware that I still need to resolve a cunning wish if I let it in my sideboard and that a good landstill player counters the wish (I suppose). But since I am known for playing solidarity without wipe away I am quite sure they might let it by.
Suggestions?
What is your boarding plan against landstill? I bring in all my twincasts and brainfreezes. But I am not sure if I side out correctly. In the second game I went off in my own turn so I was quite happy having turnabouts.

When you need bounce, you should bring some in second game keeping only single on the wishboard at max. I think Wipe Away is the perfect candidate to bring in from the SB after game 1 as it's indeed uncounterable. I tend to agree with your SB-plan though, Twincasts and Brain Freezes help fight the counterwars and allow you to fight through Stifles more effectively.

[GreenOne]

I found the 4th Freeze unuseful, so i cut it for Wipe Away:
Noone is going to side in stifle.
Vs landstill when you combo out you usually have all the time in the world to combo. If you have 8 lands you don't fear counter on high tide/untap effects and usually have a Flash of Insight in grave. You can't fizzle, because there are almost no more lands in your deck and you have a great hand. If you have to combo on turn 4-5 they're probably tapped out to play something nasty, so you fear less counters/stifle.

So.. stifle is not an issue. Well, not when it targets Brain Freeze. I never needed to side in a 3rd or 4th stifle against Landstill (and it's quite present in my meta).

My side at the moment is Deep6er's -1 Freeze -1 Rebuild +2 Wipe Away
(lack of rebuild is a metagame call: no Trinis/chalices in my meta but Mage is everywhere)

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I found the 4th Freeze unuseful, so i cut it for Wipe Away:
Noone is going to side in stifle.
Vs landstill when you combo out you usually have all the time in the world to combo. If you have 8 lands you don't fear counter on high tide/untap effects and usually have a Flash of Insight in grave. You can't fizzle, because there are almost no more lands in your deck and you have a great hand. If you have to combo on turn 4-5 they're probably tapped out to play something nasty, so you fear less counters/stifle.

So.. stifle is not an issue. Well, not when it targets Brain Freeze. I never needed to side in a 3rd or 4th stifle against Landstill (and it's quite present in my meta).

My side at the moment is Deep6er's -1 Freeze -1 Rebuild +2 Wipe Away
(lack of rebuild is a metagame call: no Trinis/chalices in my meta but Mage is everywhere)




Cutting the 4th Brainfreeze is a mistake in my opinion. It doesn't look like you would ever need 2 in the board, but trust me, it helps ALOT against Thresh, and the Mirror. Both of which, you need to do well in in order to succeed in major tournaments. That 4th brainfreeze is one more freeze you can cast against thresh when you have 6 or 7 spells played. Often times against thresh, you end up playing some spells and drawing in counters, then you double freeze them FTW. The loss of a Brainfreeze doesn't look horrible on paper, but you will miss it in the matches where it is relevant.

[Reagens]

I have to agree with nantuko shady that cutting the 4th brain freeze would be a mistake. The point is that altough you have lots and lots of time against landstill you have to resolve a bounce spell on their arcane lab or rule of law to combo.
As I said I am convinced that they might let cunning wish by because they are sure to counter the bounce spell itself.
The question is. In a metagame where landstill does well (actually very well), do you think it will be worth to sacrifice a sideboard slot to wipe away or do I count on the resilience of the deck (i.e. is turnabouting their lands eot sufficient to draw out enough counters) ?
If it would be feasible to play wipe away. Which card would be cut. Brain freeze is not an option because of the control match-up.

[Eldariel]

As I said I am convinced that they might let cunning wish by because they are sure to counter the bounce spell itself. The question is. In a metagame where landstill does well (actually very well), do you think it will be worth to sacrifice a sideboard slot to wipe away or do I count on the resilience of the deck (i.e. is turnabouting their lands eot sufficient to draw out enough counters) ?

I just wish to point out that they'll fall for that at most once. After that, they'll aim their counters at your wishes (or if they happen to read this thread, they'll do it anyways). That's why I think it should be brought in rather than kept on the SB. As for the slots, most SBs have 2-3 bounce-slots, I'd use 2 of the 3 for Wipe Aways and one for Chain of Vapors (Wipe Away bounces Chalice pretty easily too).

[GreenOne]

... 4th brainfreeze is one more freeze you can cast against thresh when you have 6 or 7 spells played. Often times against thresh, you end up playing some spells and drawing in counters, then you double freeze them FTW.

The problem with threshold is that i cannot resolve a Tide. If i resolve tide then i can combo out easily and play around counters. But tide doesn't resolve because there's a mage or there are counters. So, without a resolved tide, how many times do you have 4 mana and 7 storm?

Consider that players I'm playing with stop playing draw spells during their turn after 3rd turn, fearing combo in response. Play MD stifle, so they got some sort of LD and disruption to the double freeze plan.

What we are talking are 2 completely different strategies, it's not just 1 slot difference. Yours is to short combo (counterwar then 2xFreeze). Mine is to outcombo (be sure to eliminate MM problem and your chances to outcombo his counters are high).


...Thresh, and the Mirror. Both of which, you need to do well in in order to succeed in major tournaments.

Mirror is non-existent at the moment here. It happened me once in the last 8 tournaments.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

The problem with threshold is that i cannot resolve a Tide. If i resolve tide then i can combo out easily and play around counters. But tide doesn't resolve because there's a mage or there are counters. So, without a resolved tide, how many times do you have 4 mana and 7 storm?

Consider that players I'm playing with stop playing draw spells during their turn after 3rd turn, fearing combo in response. Play MD stifle, so they got some sort of LD and disruption to the double freeze plan.

What we are talking are 2 completely different strategies, it's not just 1 slot difference. Yours is to short combo (counterwar then 2xFreeze). Mine is to outcombo (be sure to eliminate MM problem and your chances to outcombo his counters are high).




Ok fair enough, I just believe that the 4th Brainfreeze will be overall, a lot more useful and versatile than the 1x Wipe away. By no means is Wipe away a bad card, I am just in favor of the 4th Brainfreeze. The main reason being is that I will find myself boarding in the 4th Brainfreeze more often than myself ever boarding in Wipe away. I see your point though.

[Silverdragon]

So now this thread is about 47 pages long and the first page is so horribly outdated it's not even funny. Could someone please do an update and post a recent list somewhere where it is easy to find? (I found Deep6er's current list 1 or 2 pages back but a hint at the first page could help^^) Also I'm interested in some matchup analysis and sideboard strategies.
Another point, I saw a list with 4 Disrupt and only 1 Twincast in the board so I'm curious are there matchups where boarding in Disrupts is better than having Twincasts? Both are obviously good against opposing counters but one is good against random spells the opponent might play (say Armageddon) and the other helps you combo out easier. Disrupt can act as another weak Opt or Peek but for one more blue mana Twincast can be every spell in your deck.
Disrupt has a slight edge when playing against combo like IGGy but Twincast is just more powerful overall.
So are there metas where Disrupt is playable in the sideboard and 1-2 Twincasts are enough?

[Deep6er]

So now this thread is about 47 pages long and the first page is so horribly outdated it's not even funny. Could someone please do an update and post a recent list somewhere where it is easy to find? (I found Deep6er's current list 1 or 2 pages back but a hint at the first page could help^^) Also I'm interested in some matchup analysis and sideboard strategies.
Another point, I saw a list with 4 Disrupt and only 1 Twincast in the board so I'm curious are there matchups where boarding in Disrupts is better than having Twincasts? Both are obviously good against opposing counters but one is good against random spells the opponent might play (say Armageddon) and the other helps you combo out easier. Disrupt can act as another weak Opt or Peek but for one more blue mana Twincast can be every spell in your deck.
Disrupt has a slight edge when playing against combo like IGGy but Twincast is just more powerful overall.
So are there metas where Disrupt is playable in the sideboard and 1-2 Twincasts are enough?


One interesting thing to note is that I didn't actually post in this thread for awhile, I feel no compunction to update the front page. Also, I'm lazy as hell. I guess that's the biggest deterrent to updating, although it is a good idea.

Anyway, couple of things to mention. Disrupt sucks. Seriously. I found that if you just side in the 4th Meditate, your odds against Deadguy and Truffle Shuffle become about the same as if you were boarding Disrupt. The Twincast plan is absolutely awesome, however, it can only work in certain metagames.
@Nantuko Shady/Green One: Green One's board plan is perfectly justifiable given what he's told us about his metagame. In fact, his board plan caused me to rethink the viability of Wipe Away. I've now come to the conclusion that the board should be revamped to include Wipe Away, but it should be noted that I've also come to the conclusion that Wipe Away will only be good in MULTIPLES.


On to another topic.
@Silverdragon: Matchup analysis should really be confined to either general strategies or the top tier. One of the weird things about Legacy is the ABNORMALLY high amount of random decks. Thus, matchup analysis is only relevant in a generic sense as many of the decks you play against will only loosely share strategies, thus nullifying any set rules for playing certain matchups. Understand?

@Anybody who has a Star City Games Forum Account: If you guys could direct some of those people to this thread, that might clarify some of their confusion. Even though I lurk on those forums (and TMD) I refuse to set up another forum account. If you don't want to, I completely understand.

@Everybody: Before the end of this year, I should be able to writeup a reasonably good overview of matchups and sideboarding strategies from my point of view. If people are interested, I could collaborate with Ewokslayer to make sure it covers his point of view as well. I plan to include addendums from Krieger and possibly Herbig (if he'd just stop the babykilling). I'd like to kind of get a gauge for how many people are interested in this though. So, if you're interested, drop me a line here, or (if this mailbox is full) at bjarxn@hotmail.com. Preferably try the source first, and hotmail as a last resort as I check my hotmail MUCH less frequently.

[GreenOne]

Yours is to short combo (counterwar then 2xFreeze).

Another problem I had with short combo is that every UGw deck is going to side Jotun Grunt for Stp.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

@Deep6er= I believe that a giant collaboration of work from all of the Solidarity masters would be an excellent idea. Too many people are too lazy to check back on previous pages of this thread, and in fact, no true full break-down of Solidarity has been done yet on the source. Not to mention, insight from all of the different Solidarity players would be excellent. If you need any tips on how to misplay, then well you can reach me here. I'm sure I could help you out. :laugh:

[Carlos El Salvador]

Eh. Maybe I can rewrite the new Solidarity thread, seeing as I still play the deck. But a couple post ago, people said that a lot of people run solidarity in major tournaments. The fact is that they don't. It's a scary deck to face against, though. That is why it's a Deck to Beat, especially because of it's resiliance to haterade.

@ Disrupt suckage:

I agree. Remand is almost always more useful in these matchups anyhow. That turn you buy with bouncing their turn 2 Hymn to their hand is priceless.

@ Wipe Away:

Friggin badass. I find it is a huge boon in so many matchups it's not funny. "Oh, your going to mage my spell I need. I don't want him out anymore right now." "Shit, Arcane Lab is back in your hand", and as always, the play of just bouncing a chalice for 1 or 2 is equally as impressive.

[Reagens]

I did some testing yesterday against Hanni Fish. And the results were awful. I think we played 15 games and I won maybe 1 or 2.
I think with some more decent draws I would have been able to win 4 but not much more. The combination of meddling mage, confidant, stifle and his counters made it virtually impossible for me to get anywhere. Because I was virtually never able to get a high tide through his counterwall the plan of playing litlle freezes did very little for me.
Any suggestions or experiences from you guys?

[Deep6er]

I did some testing yesterday against Hanni Fish. And the results were awful. I think we played 15 games and I won maybe 1 or 2.
I think with some more decent draws I would have been able to win 4 but not much more. The combination of meddling mage, confidant, stifle and his counters made it virtually impossible for me to get anywhere. Because I was virtually never able to get a high tide through his counterwall the plan of playing litlle freezes did very little for me.
Any suggestions or experiences from you guys?

Hanni Fish isn't such a big deal. Their clock is awful and Meditate is ridiculous. Remand is the nuts against them (don't remand their spells) and Flash kills Grunt (+ Card Advantage too!). Grunt is their biggest creature and you have two spells that auto kill him and draw you a good card. Seems fair.

[Bane of the Living]

Umm, are you exagerating alittle? I've seen this deck throw a fits facing white thresh. Add Jotun Grunt, Confidant, and Stifle and you call it fair?? Oh Mr Gearheart, I just dont know about that one. Fish is in practice, your worst matchup. Aside from god hands I dont think theres much light at the end of the tunnel.

[jamest]

This is my current test list.

4 Cunning Wish
3 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Turnabout
2 Flash of Insight
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
1 Peek
4 Impulse
4 Meditate
4 Remand
4 Force of Will
18 Land

Differences with Deep6er's list:
1) 3 MD High Tide, 1 SB. Previously, I was having trouble consistently finding High Tide by Turn 4. This set up gives us 7 High Tides, which not only helps find our first High Tide, but multiple Tides.
2) 4 MD Turnabout. I didn't find the SB Turnabout very helpful, since Wishing for it would require 7 mana, at a time when mana was our scarcest resource.
3) 0 MD Freeze. I felt that the deck goldfished more consistently without the MD Freezes, because they could be replaced by spells which help set up or support the combo i.e. Opt, Meditate, Turnabout. Is there a need for MD Freezes?
4) 4 MD Meditate. Having a wishable Meditate seemed unnecessary, since Stroke or Freeze can serve as our wishable draw spell.

I'm sure some of you have already considered/tested these changes. What do you guys think?

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

This is my current test list.
Differences with Deep6er's list:
1) 3 MD High Tide, 1 SB. Previously, I was having trouble consistently finding High Tide by Turn 4. This set up gives us 7 High Tides, which not only helps find our first High Tide, but multiple Tides.
2) 4 MD Turnabout. I didn't find the SB Turnabout very helpful, since Wishing for it would require 7 mana, at a time when mana was our scarcest resource.
3) 0 MD Freeze. I felt that the deck goldfished more consistently without the MD Freezes, because they could be replaced by spells which help set up or support the combo i.e. Opt, Meditate, Turnabout. Is there a need for MD Freezes?
4) 4 MD Meditate. Having a wishable Meditate seemed unnecessary, since Stroke or Freeze can serve as our wishable draw spell.
I'm sure some of you have already considered/tested these changes. What do you guys think?


1) I don't see where there is room in the SB for a High Tide. The sideboard is already quite tight in my opinion, and with only 3x Cunning Wish at our disposal, we don't want too many cards in the SB that we have to rely that we can Cunning Wish for. Sideboarding a High Tide also reduces the odds of getting a turn 4 High Tide from your maindeck. (w/out the use of a Cunning Wish). However, I can see your point about not drawing High Tide the turn you need it, but I think sideboarding a High Tide isn't the best way to solve that problem.


2) I find the 1x SB Turnabout to be actually very helpful. Like your point was with sideboarding a High Tide, a Turnabout in the SB just gives you more ways to grab it when you really need it. I have found myself Wishing for Turnabout in several scenarios, mainly ones where I have found myself needing to untap. Yes it does cost 7 mana and it gets rather annoying, but I haven't really found myself that short on mana in cases where I am forced to Cunning Wish for Turnabout. However, out of all your suggestions, this is the one I like the best Jamest.

3) I'm not sold on this one. I feel that 2x MD Brainfreezes are very important to have. I agree that it is the suckiest card to pull in your opening grip, but in the end, you win the game with a Brainfreeze or a big ass Stroke of Genius for like 45 cards. Moving these *key* cards such as High Tide and all of the Brainfreezes to the sideboard just makes yourself rely on getting multiple Cunning Wishes. Keep in mind in Deep6er's list, Cunning Wish is already needed for other situations, such as Wishing for a Meditate or wishing for the Stroke of Genius FTW, or wishing for the bounce spell to allow you to go off. In my opinion, moving too many utility cards to the board will mess up the whole plan in terms of Cunning Wish. Not to mention, having a maindeck out when you corner yourself is nice. (I.e. Brainfreezing yourself)

4) I used to run 4x Meditate mainboard as well. Gearhart and others told me otherwise, but I still ran all four of them MD. However, once I finally decided I would experiment with one in the SB, I fully understood why everyone was telling me to slap one in the sideboard. I didn't really realize how easier it was to get a Meditate with one in the board then all of them maindeck. When I am going off, if I get towards the end of my gas, I can always bank on having that draw spell in my board. I can't name how many times that sideboarded Meditate has saved my ass. Using Stoke of Genius as a draw spell can be risky sometimes. If you Stroke yourself, you either need to Twincast it back at them to make them draw, or have a Cunning Wish to grab it after you flash it back with Flash of Insight. Brainfreeze is the same, in terms of the risk factor. You don't really want to Brainfreeze yourself unless you have to, or you know you can do it. I just find that Meditate is the most safe and reliable draw spell to Cunning Wish for. Not to mention, EOT Cunning Wish for Meditate on turn 3 if you don't already have one in hand is also not a bad play. Overall, I believe that running 1x Meditate in the SB has a slight edge over running 4x Maindeck. However, I see how your point makes good sense when used with the rest of your changes to the deck.


I think that's all I've got. Word.:cool:

[Eldariel]

No MD Freezes is extremely risky, since that makes you scoop to Meddling Mage naming Cunning Wish. Also, the 'partial Brain Freezes' plan doesn't really work without MD Freezes, nor the double Freeze-plan. Not to mention, if you only run SB Freezes, all your win conditions are essentially counterable. I see Cunning Wish for Meditate also as a set-up play on turn 3 when going off turn 4, one of the reasons SB Meditates are very helpful.

[Deep6er]

This is my current test list.

4 Cunning Wish
3 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Turnabout
2 Flash of Insight
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
1 Peek
4 Impulse
4 Meditate
4 Remand
4 Force of Will
18 Land

Differences with Deep6er's list:
1) 3 MD High Tide, 1 SB. Previously, I was having trouble consistently finding High Tide by Turn 4. This set up gives us 7 High Tides, which not only helps find our first High Tide, but multiple Tides.
2) 4 MD Turnabout. I didn't find the SB Turnabout very helpful, since Wishing for it would require 7 mana, at a time when mana was our scarcest resource.
3) 0 MD Freeze. I felt that the deck goldfished more consistently without the MD Freezes, because they could be replaced by spells which help set up or support the combo i.e. Opt, Meditate, Turnabout. Is there a need for MD Freezes?
4) 4 MD Meditate. Having a wishable Meditate seemed unnecessary, since Stroke or Freeze can serve as our wishable draw spell.

I'm sure some of you have already considered/tested these changes. What do you guys think?

I think Shady might have gotten a fair bit of it there. However, he did miss a couple of things. On turn three, there are a couple of options. Theoretically, any situation where you have Tide, my build allows you to wish for the remaining part of the 'equation' of Tide, Untap, Meditate. Granted, your build has Wish into Tide but the problem is then that you dramatically decrease the outs for a turn three win. However, just using more optimization is inevitably going to be better than Wishing.

Also, I would just like to state for the record that the Maindeck Twincast Plan is much more valuable than people give it credit for. There are many things that can be done and it's important to recognize that cards versatility and strength. On the other side, I think that it's not worth it to cut ACTUAL cards to make room for more Twincasts. A glut of Twincasts can easily lead to lost opportunities to optimize your hand.

I'm unsure of how many times I can tell people that it's important to have a Meditate in the Sideboard. I know Opportunity seems bad sometimes but that's a risk you have to take in order to gain a large measure of consistency.

I can tell you with some authority that not having any maindeck Freezes is a mistake. I've tested lists like that and found them to be wanting in entirely too many situations.

I can also say with some authority that Cunning Wish is not as Incredibly Valuable as you seem to make it. Overvaluing the Wish's versatility can lead to many negative drawbacks. The fourth Wish will also decrease the likelihood of turn three wins by yet another recognizable portion as Wish is entirely too difficult to cast if you're extremely tight on mana.


In reality, the Sideboarded Turnabout is entirely your call. However, it's important to note that I tend to use it fill in the missing part of the 'equation' as opposed to Wishing for it mid-combo. Also, the very important 'Fog' effect is another reason it comes in handy to be able to Wish for.

@Bane of the Living: Notice that I didn't say things like 'cakewalk' or 'walk in the park'. Between Theshold and Hanni fish I'd much rather take Hanni Fish. My post was to clarify points of interest in that matchup. Their largest creature can be 'Slay'-ed with Flash of Insight and their smaller creatures means that counterwar into Meditate is a perfectly feasible idea for replenishing your hand enough to try again. I admit that I'm unsure if your condescending tone was intentional or not. I undertand your desire to 'put me in my place' but this hardly seems like the way to do it. Had I made some kind of assertion that there was no way I could EVER lose then it seems like that would have been a decent shot. However, the tone of my post was intended to be humorous as the strategy in that matchup is vastly different than from Threshold. I also found it funny that Reagens was so incredibly desolate about that matchup. No offense to him but it almost sounded like he wanted to just up and quit because he got kicked in the shin. I was attempting to interject some levity into his overwhelming despair but alas, it seems you could not read my mind. In the future, I will endeavor to be clearer.

[Volt]

@Bane of the Living: Notice that I didn't say things like 'cakewalk' or 'walk in the park'. Between Theshold and Hanni fish I'd much rather take Hanni Fish. My post was to clarify points of interest in that matchup. Their largest creature can be 'Slay'-ed with Flash of Insight and their smaller creatures means that counterwar into Meditate is a perfectly feasible idea for replenishing your hand enough to try again. I admit that I'm unsure if your condescending tone was intentional or not. I undertand your desire to 'put me in my place' but this hardly seems like the way to do it. Had I made some kind of assertion that there was no way I could EVER lose then it seems like that would have been a decent shot. However, the tone of my post was intended to be humorous as the strategy in that matchup is vastly different than from Threshold. I also found it funny that Reagens was so incredibly desolate about that matchup. No offense to him but it almost sounded like he wanted to just up and quit because he got kicked in the shin. I was attempting to interject some levity into his overwhelming despair but alas, it seems you could not read my mind. In the future, I will endeavor to be clearer.

I was tempted to make a response along the same lines as BotL's when I read your earlier post, but I figured you had to be kidding, at least to some degree. I imagine Hanni Fish is about as bad a matchup as there is for Solidarity. And yes, that includes UGW Thresh.

[GreenOne]

I did some testing yesterday against Hanni Fish. And the results were awful. I think we played 15 games and I won maybe 1 or 2.

HanniFish is the deck I test more and the results are dramatic: I usually win something like 20% of the games. From my testing their clock is not so slow (1 turn slower than threshold), and their amount of hate is enormous (every card in their deck excluding jitte and StP is threat or disruption).


Meditate is ridiculous. Remand is the nuts against them (don't remand their spells) and Flash kills Grunt (+ Card Advantage too!). Grunt is their biggest creature and you have two spells that auto kill him and draw you a good card. Seems fair.

I don't find meditate ridiculous in this matchup. I mean, unless we lose a counterwar and try to recover it's useful only when comboing..
Flash of insight is not that Grunt-Killah: Grunt is here to beat down for 8 in a couple of turns. This means 6 card split from your fetchlands and his graveyard. That's easy to do for him..

Damn, I just improved my skills enough to go 50/50 with thresh and now comes the new beast.. However i'll test more and see if there's a way ..

[Hanni]

I haven't checked this thread in a while but I noticed some people were discussing this decks matchup vs UWb Fish.

I'm not entirely sure how Fish's clock is so much slower than Threshold's. Usually, Threshold doesn't achieve 7 cards in the graveyard until turn 3-4. They also run less aggro, so Fish can potentially play some extra beaters. Jotun Grunt is not killed by Flash of Insight, since it also draws resources from my graveyard... in fact, it can hurt the Solidarity player by limited the amount of Flash cards it has at its disposal. It also needs to be dealt with by bounce or by casting Stroke of Genius instead if you plan to combo out with him on the table.

If Threshold's clock is faster, I don't see it being any more than by 1 turn. For that loss of a turn, the deck gains Duress, Stifle (although I'm sure Threshold probably boards these in anyway), Jotun Grunt, and Mother of Runes (to lock Meddling Mage in safely). Threshold runs big guys, Fish runs creatures that have double purposes (utility). Confidant allows me to keep my hand fueled with countermagic, for example.

UWb Fish isn't a popular deck so it's not something most Solidarity players are going to have to deal with (where Threshold is something you're going to have to deal with), but I really don't see how Solidarity would survive in a field of UWb Fish. UWb Fish has favorable results against Solidarity pre and post board. It's Goblins matchup may be questionable but I don't see why the Solidarity matchup would be.

Again though, I don't see UWb Fish becoming popular anytime soon so it's not really something Solidarity players need to fear. If you can do well against UGw Threshold, then your probably as best prepared as you can be for UWb Fish anyway. Threshold is the more important matchup to be able to win.

[GreenOne]

Again though, I don't see UWb Fish becoming popular anytime soon so it's not really something Solidarity players need to fear. If you can do well against UGw Threshold, then your probably as best prepared as you can be for UWb Fish anyway. Threshold is the more important matchup to be able to win.

Probably I live right in the hole of world's ass (Italy), but here UBW fish is becoming more popular than threshold. I see it Top8ing everytime here in place of Threshold (too much hate and bad UBW Fish matchup) and if you go to a 60 people tournament you have to expect something like 8-10 UBW Fish variants and 5 or less Threshold/Gro. That sickens me as a combo player at heart.

[Hanni]

GreeOne, are you kidding me? That's rediculous... Well, if UWb Fish starts to make such a big presence there, Solidarity is probably a bad option for you.

[noobslayer]

I think he already realized that. On the other hand, I think like Faerie Stompy, the UWB Fish will never reach DTB status.

[jamest]

Sideboarding a High Tide also reduces the odds of getting a turn 4 High Tide from your maindeck. (w/out the use of a Cunning Wish).
I calculated some rough numbers. I'll assume, on average, we dig 2 cards on turn 1, 3 cards turn 2, 4 cards turn 3, so we see 18 cards after turn 3 (on the play). Then our chances of seeing at least one High Tide (4x) after turn 3 is 77.0%. Our chances of seeing at least one High Tide / Cunning Wish (3x/4x) after turn 2, plus digging on turn 3 for High Tide only (3x), is 88.5%.


... the problem is then that you dramatically decrease the outs for a turn three win.
I hadn't considered this. How often do you estimate the deck can sucessfully combo off turn 3?


No MD Freezes is extremely risky, since that makes you scoop to Meddling Mage naming Cunning Wish.
This is a good reason to maindeck at least one Freeze. I'll test +1 Freeze, -1 Peek.


Also, the 'partial Brain Freezes' plan doesn't really work without MD Freezes, nor the double Freeze-plan. Not to mention, if you only run SB Freezes, all your win conditions are essentially counterable.
In what matchups do you find yourself going for the partial/double Freeze plan? Drawing both MD Freezes is unlikely so the partial/double Freeze plan would often require resolving Remand/Wish/etc, in which case, it's still counterable. Plus Stifle is seeing more play lately in countermagic decks (Fish, Thresh, Landstill), because of its effectiveness against Goblins.


I can tell you with some authority that not having any maindeck Freezes is a mistake. I've tested lists like that and found them to be wanting in entirely too many situations.
Can you give some matchups or examples where not having MD Freezes hurt?


Overall, I believe that running 1x Meditate in the SB has a slight edge over running 4x Maindeck. However, I see how your point makes good sense when used with the rest of your changes to the deck.
My build emphasizes mana generation, which is why Stroke is a common wish target for me.


I can also say with some authority that Cunning Wish is not as Incredibly Valuable as you seem to make it.
I don't think Wish is great or anything. I see it as a way to get us more Tides. Consider our combo ingredients:
1) Tide - Tide
2) Untap - Reset, Turnabout, (Wish)
3) Draw - Meditate, Flash, Wish, Brainstorm, etc
The weakest link is Tide. Mathematically, it would seem our combo would gain more consistency if we could address this. But I don't know if there is a good solution. The 3 Tide / 4 Wish setup has its drawbacks i.e. Wish is inefficient. The standard 4 Tide setup is less consistent, but gives more turn 3 wins. I'm not sure what other alternatives there are.


Damn, I just improved my skills enough to go 50/50 with thresh
What's your strategy against Thresh?

I want to thank everyone for their responses. I found them very helpful.

[My Name Is Scott]

Can you give some matchups or examples where not having MD Freezes hurt?

Aggro decks, aggro control decks, combo decks, aluratog, pretty much everything except board contol.

[Eldariel]

I think he already realized that. On the other hand, I think like Faerie Stompy, the UWB Fish will never reach DTB status.

I dunno, the one limiting factor for FS is the price of Sea Drake, UWb Fish is in a place to replace, or become one in addition to, Threshold. Anyhow, if Threshold was unable to put Solidarity completely out, UWb Fish isn't going to do it either. The fact that the creatures are a slower clock, if they do have higher utility, allows Solidarity to get an extra land or two into play, which is huge when actually going off.

[GreenOne]

GreeOne, are you kidding me? That's rediculous... Well, if UWb Fish starts to make such a big presence there, Solidarity is probably a bad option for you.

Yeah, UBW Fish is everywhere (greetings for that, Hanni), but I can't see why (There are maximum 3 combo players in the room during a 60 people tournament... hey, it's Europe!).

These are the last Top8s for 60 people tournaments here:

26/11/2006
1) STAX ur
2) SOLIDARITY
3) FISH ubw
4) BWU aggro/control
5) GRO (NOT Threshold)
6) GOBLIN
7) GOBLIN rw
8) FISH ubw

10/12/2006
1) GRO (NOT Threshold)
2) VIAL uwb
3) LANDSTILL uwg
4) GOBLIN rw
5) FISH ubw
6) FAERIE STOMPY
7) CONFIDANT bw
8) FISH ubw


I think he already realized that. On the other hand, I think like Faerie Stompy, the UWB Fish will never reach DTB status.

Fish has much more stability and card availability than Faerie Stompy. Plays the same role as threshold, but have a good Threshold matchup. I think UBW Hannifish is going to substitute UGW Threshold in the long run as the AggroControl DTB if the metagame remains the same (here is already happening). You can quote me on that. :cool:

[Hanni]

Well, I didn't want to turn the Solidarity thread into a UWb Fish thread, I just wanted to put my 2 cents in about Solidarity's matchup vs it, since someone else brought it up.

Evacuation out of the sideboard can be a decent answer for Meddling Mages (since it also hits Mom's, Grunt's, and so forth). Although, if Mage is naming High Tide, the 3cc for Wish into the 5cc for Evacuation is probably not feasible.

[GreenOne]

I missed that:


What's your strategy against Thresh?

Threshold has just one flaw: it can go aggro with a bit of control or control with a bit of aggro. I use Peek to see what's their hand like and try to counter their threats OR their counters/magi. You can draw their counters with well timed Wishes, Meditates and Remands. The big problem here is Meddling, so I usually board in 2xWipe Away. Don't forget that Twincast is great here. Other than that... practice! :smile: Solidarity is the deck that rewards more in terms of win percentage if you improve your skills on it.

[Reagens]

@Bane of the Living: Notice that I didn't say things like 'cakewalk' or 'walk in the park'. Between Theshold and Hanni fish I'd much rather take Hanni Fish. My post was to clarify points of interest in that matchup. Their largest creature can be 'Slay'-ed with Flash of Insight and their smaller creatures means that counterwar into Meditate is a perfectly feasible idea for replenishing your hand enough to try again. I admit that I'm unsure if your condescending tone was intentional or not. I undertand your desire to 'put me in my place' but this hardly seems like the way to do it. Had I made some kind of assertion that there was no way I could EVER lose then it seems like that would have been a decent shot. However, the tone of my post was intended to be humorous as the strategy in that matchup is vastly different than from Threshold. I also found it funny that Reagens was so incredibly desolate about that matchup. No offense to him but it almost sounded like he wanted to just up and quit because he got kicked in the shin. I was attempting to interject some levity into his overwhelming despair but alas, it seems you could not read my mind. In the future, I will endeavor to be clearer.

I was kinda desolate. Serves me right to post something the day after getting it. Either way there were some things that may shed some light on the desolation part because I wasn't complete.
I forgot to mention that the opponent I was testing against is the same guy I have been testing against for 4 months, every week. To say he knows the match-up is the least I can say (he is known as 'Tist' on this forum). Which is why I think he can make it so hard for me. Correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me that control player in you area let the high tide resolve, which is in my opinion the reason why the small freeze plan actually works. If not I don't see how you manage to freeze them to death because you lack the mana to build a decent stack.
Either way I think grunt dies after at least 2 attacks, Even with a flash in the yard. Which means 8 points of damage by turn 4. Their clock is really not that slow compared to ********.
Second point is strategy and boarding for this specific match-up. Would it be the same as for UGW ********? Or are there any differences?

@Deep6er: Why do you prefer Hanni to ********? The clock? I think the advantage black (card advantage + discard) offers to Fish is more relevant then the faster clock of ******** (and I am not even sure the clock is really that much in the favor of ******** anyway).

On a positive side-note. Since I have been testing with Tist I have done well in every tournament I participated in and I won 2 tournaments after doing horribly against Tist in our training sessions.

[Deep6er]

I was kinda desolate. Serves me right to post something the day after getting it. Either way there were some things that may shed some light on the desolation part because I wasn't complete.
I forgot to mention that the opponent I was testing against is the same guy I have been testing against for 4 months, every week. To say he knows the match-up is the least I can say (he is known as 'Tist' on this forum). Which is why I think he can make it so hard for me. Correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me that control player in you area let the high tide resolve, which is in my opinion the reason why the small freeze plan actually works. If not I don't see how you manage to freeze them to death because you lack the mana to build a decent stack.
Either way I think grunt dies after at least 2 attacks, Even with a flash in the yard. Which means 8 points of damage by turn 4. Their clock is really not that slow compared to ********.
Second point is strategy and boarding for this specific match-up. Would it be the same as for UGW ********? Or are there any differences?

@Deep6er: Why do you prefer Hanni to ********? The clock? I think the advantage black (card advantage + discard) offers to Fish is more relevant then the faster clock of ******** (and I am not even sure the clock is really that much in the favor of ******** anyway).

On a positive side-note. Since I have been testing with Tist I have done well in every tournament I participated in and I won 2 tournaments after doing horribly against Tist in our training sessions.

Listen, don't take this the wrong way, but 8'd like to question your testing method. A common mistake is for both players to act as if they know what each other is playing. This affects opening hands as a hand that is good against Solidarity is VASTLY different than a hand that is good against Goblins. Also, how are mistakes handled? They should be handled where, if you make a mistake, then it's your own damn fault. It's really easy for the aggro control deck (whether it be Hanni Fish or Threshold) to make a mistake. If you allow 'takebacks' then the mistake is never learned and it warps testing. You should make testing as rigorous and tournament - like as possible. In a tournament, odds are unlikely that you're going to know what you're playing against every round so thus, it's more important to keep hands that are 'good' instead of hands that are good against a certain deck. Other than that, I'm not certain what else you may be doing. If you KNOW he's going after Tide, then play accordingly. Also, are these post boarded matches? I'd also like to know what you're boarding and why, as whatever strategy he pursued game 1 will influence how I board. Remember, ALL the versatility is in your deck. Play accordingly.

[Reagens]

Listen, don't take this the wrong way, but 8'd like to question your testing method. A common mistake is for both players to act as if they know what each other is playing. This affects opening hands as a hand that is good against Solidarity is VASTLY different than a hand that is good against Goblins. Also, how are mistakes handled? They should be handled where, if you make a mistake, then it's your own damn fault. It's really easy for the aggro control deck (whether it be Hanni Fish or Threshold) to make a mistake. If you allow 'takebacks' then the mistake is never learned and it warps testing. You should make testing as rigorous and tournament - like as possible. In a tournament, odds are unlikely that you're going to know what you're playing against every round so thus, it's more important to keep hands that are 'good' instead of hands that are good against a certain deck..

No offense taken.
Ok. So the testing was warped. We play each other so much that we adapt our playing style and our mulling. We don't allow takebacks. Another factor may be that we played the aggro-control vs solidarity at least a few hundred times which I imagine gives him the advantage.



Other than that, I'm not certain what else you may be doing. If you KNOW he's going after Tide, then play accordingly. Also, are these post boarded matches? I'd also like to know what you're boarding and why, as whatever strategy he pursued game 1 will influence how I board. Remember, ALL the versatility is in your deck. Play accordingly.

We played approximately 8 games with sideboard. With him siding duress in (he doesn't keep them on the main) and I believe some equipment for tempo. I used the ******** sideboarding, meaning siding in 3 twincast, 2 brain freeze and an echoing truth and siding out 4 remand, 1 turnabout and 1 meditate. I don't think it is the right strategy but I am unsure what IS the good strategy.
Typically a game goes like this. Either I have a good hand with the relevant cards and I try to go off on 4 lands. My intention is more to deplete his counters than anything else. Mostly I lose 2-3 cards in the process. Next turn I try to go off again and if I walk into another counter I am screwed. Other games leave me with a less desirable hand and I try to go off at the very end where 2-3 counters ruin my day. I need a strategy where I can generate some cardadvantage so I can compensate for the card loss.
Twincasts more often than not remain dead in my hand, so maybe I have to leave those in the sideboard. I don't know.

[b4r0n]

I used the ******** sideboarding, meaning siding in 3 twincast, 2 brain freeze and an echoing truth and siding out 4 remand, 1 turnabout and 1 meditate. I don't think it is the right strategy but I am unsure what IS the good strategy.

I would imagine that you want to leave the Remands in. Those should slow down his already slow clock even more, which lets you build up your manabase and decrease your dependency on High Tide. It also lets you fight his countermagic by Remanding your own spells. Turnabout is also probably good to leave in, as you can always use it to tap out his mana or creatures to buy time.

I'm curious as to exactly how one should sideboard in this matchup. I would think maybe -2 Opt -1 Cunning Wish for +2 Brain Freeze +1 Echoing Truth? Or do you want to leave in Opts to sculp your hand in the early game?

Deep6er/herbig/NANTUKO_SHADY: I'd be very interested to know how you board against commonly played decks. Have you thought about writing a primer or some sort of comprehensive update to the first post in the thread?

[Deep6er]

No offense taken.
Ok. So the testing was warped. We play each other so much that we adapt our playing style and our mulling. We don't allow takebacks. Another factor may be that we played the aggro-control vs solidarity at least a few hundred times which I imagine gives him the advantage.



We played approximately 8 games with sideboard. With him siding duress in (he doesn't keep them on the main) and I believe some equipment for tempo. I used the ******** sideboarding, meaning siding in 3 twincast, 2 brain freeze and an echoing truth and siding out 4 remand, 1 turnabout and 1 meditate. I don't think it is the right strategy but I am unsure what IS the good strategy.
Typically a game goes like this. Either I have a good hand with the relevant cards and I try to go off on 4 lands. My intention is more to deplete his counters than anything else. Mostly I lose 2-3 cards in the process. Next turn I try to go off again and if I walk into another counter I am screwed. Other games leave me with a less desirable hand and I try to go off at the very end where 2-3 counters ruin my day. I need a strategy where I can generate some cardadvantage so I can compensate for the card loss.
Twincasts more often than not remain dead in my hand, so maybe I have to leave those in the sideboard. I don't know.



Couple of things here. Jesse (Hatfield) and I have played roughly 350 games of Threshold vs. Solidarity. I know the ins and outs of that matchup intimately. Unfortunately, so does he. As you test against the same person over and over, they learn the intricacies of the matchup just as you do. However, since their deck is the one with the advantage, testing results will generally stay the same. However, your matchup against other players less familiar with the matchup will be at a disadvantage. So even though testing says otherwise, I still feel WAY more comfortable playing against anyone with Threshold with all the knowledge of the matchup that I've gained from testing with Jesse.Of course, it's worth noting that Jesse NEVER loses to Solidarity now. :(

Also, your board plan isn't quite right. Hanni Fish's draw engine isn't nearly as redundant as Threshold's is and thus, the deck is far more susceptible to your stack tricks is you leave SOME Remands in the deck. Credit goes where it's due. Thank you JRP for coming up with an idea that helped in a matchup (even if it wasn't the matchup you suggested it for). I'll have to cover this idea later (in the writeup I promised) but trust me, it's incredibly complex.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Deep6er/herbig/NANTUKO_SHADY: I'd be very interested to know how you board against commonly played decks. Have you thought about writing a primer or some sort of comprehensive update to the first post in the thread?

I know that Gearhart is in the making of some comprehensive Solidarity thread that is to be released at a later date, a.k.a whenever he feels like it. On there, will be the sideboarding strategies for specific decks and matchups, so just sit tight and you shall soon be rewarded. One thing though. Although there is generally an "optimal" way to sideboard for each matchup, a lot of the times it depends also on the skill of your opponent. Reading your opponent is key as a Solidarity player, and noting your oponents confidence with their plays and decisions can often times affect your board plan. If your opponent is rather shaky or uncertain of what they are doing, then that could merit you to not board out your Remands (example) or whatever you normally do. To bring things to a close, Solidarity is a VERY flexible deck, and the pilot must be very flexible in order for the deck to run properly.

[Deep6er]

So, I know I said end of the month and all, but I've been pretty busy (and so has Ewokslayer). So it's going to take just a little longer. Also, just a little teaser but I may have solved that stupid Threshold problem. So, wait a bit and I'll have it for you as soon as I can. Appreciate not bitching about it too.

[Tacosnape]

Before I go spending hours on testing this, I guess I'll ask the experts.

Has anyone tried any number of Spell Snare in board? It seems to hit all kinds of Solidarity-hate. Against Goblins, it'll stop Chalice of the Void and Pyrostatic Pillar, as well as the occasional Piledriver. Against Threshold it can stop Meddling Mage, Counterspell, and Daze, as well as the occasional Werebear. In the mirror it could stop their Resets, Flash of Insight, Impulse, Remand, and Twincast, though I don't know if it would be worth it there. Against BW Confidant it could stop Sinkhole, Hymn, Gerrard's, and Smallpox. It also seems to be solid when your opponent is on the play.

I'm sure there are plenty of drawbacks to it, the main one being that it can't draw any cards and therefore is useless when you're going off. But since most of the biggest problem cards seem to cost 2, I thought I'd ask if anyone has attempted it recently and what the successes/failures of it were.

[Ewokslayer]

Countering Daze with Spell Snare has been pointed out as being fairly silly previously in this and other threads.
Spell Snare can't counter Flash of Insight unless X is zero and if that is the case what is the point of countering it?

For the most part Spell Snare suffers from not creating any velocity. The lack of cantrippy goodness means it will clog the hand and stall your deck.

It is like Force of Will in that regard but it isn't free and isn't flexible and has a crappier picture

[noobslayer]

Not that it matters much, but wouldn't spell snare counter a flash backed flash of insight? (Sorry If I'm off, it's way to early for me to be thinking about rulings.)

[Pathian]

not unless you chose 0 for X. When you flash it back, you choose X, and X is still going to be part of the CMC. ie, the CMC of a flashed black flash of insight for 2 is 4

[Tacosnape]

Spell Snare can't counter Flash of Insight unless X is zero and if that is the case what is the point of countering it?


I knew that. I need more sleep.

It still seems useful against Goblins and Threshold though. Again, it seems decent, as it counters two of Goblins main hate cards, Chalice and Pyrostatic Pillar. But I suppose Goblins isn't that ridiculously hard of a match anyway. Just thought I'd suggest it.

[GreenOne]

The Spell Snare thing has already been discussed some time ago.
Check out from Post #605 (Page 31) to post #631 (Page 32).
An interesting Disrupt vs Spell Snare vs Force Spike vs Divert debate concluded that none of those was worth it.

[Poron]

Abeyance before going off is just great imho..

[URABAHN]

Abeyance before going off is just great imho..

Abeyance before going off when, Poron? If you're talking about playing Abeyance in response to High Tide, a good play for Solidarity would be to Remand or Force of Will the Abeyance. A slightly more complicated, but perfectly reasonable way to win in response to Abeyance would be to win with Abeyance on the stack. A couple examples include playing another High Tide in response or play Remand targeting the "Abeyanced" High Tide to get your High Tide out from under the stack, play High Tide, and proceed as normal.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Abeyance before going off is just great imho..

Poron? Are you talking about the Solidarity player casting Abeyance themselves, and then going off? If that's the case, that idea is horrible, because you would have to splash white, which is not a good idea at all. We all know Abeyance can be casted against Solidarity, so I was just wondering what you meant by your post, cuz it's rather random.

[Poron]

I meant Abeyance played by the Solidarity player, yes. The only bad (very bad really it makes it nearly unplayable really...) thing is abeyance's color... white.

But the possibility to keep opponents sit while comboing shouldn't be understimed.. (imho) if Abeyance would have had Split second would have been an auto include in my Solidarity list. but it hasn't

[Deep6er]

Ok, not much left for the matchup analysis thing but I wantd to see if there was any particular matchups that people wanted to cover that have been discussed recently and that I have a strategy or two in mind for. Just for reference, the decks that I have done are; Goblins, the Mirror, Threshold (U/G/W Threshold both Hatfield and Bardo/Nightmare) and Hannifish (because Bardo's a jerkface :P), I can't do one for Fairy Stompy (Sorry Eldariel), and Life from the Loam decks are always so vastly different that it makes singular strategies hard to determine. Jack Elgin decks shouldn't be an issue, and Red Death/Deadguy/Stupid Black Decks are going to depend on whether or not you are able to Meditate. Iggy Pop hasn't settled on a single anti-Solidarity plan, so there's no real way to discuss that. I can't really think of anything that I've missed that would still be relevant and that I have a plan for. So, throw out some requests and I'll see what I can do.

[Silverdragon]

Deep6er you mentioned Iggy Pop and that "there is no real way to discuss that" however I want to ask are there some key plays you should watch out for regardless of whether they run Xantid Swarm or Defense Grid or Orim's Chant? Is there a general strategy to follow or is it just mulligan for Force and hope to survive until turn four?

[Deep6er]

Deep6er you mentioned Iggy Pop and that "there is no real way to discuss that" however I want to ask are there some key plays you should watch out for regardless of whether they run Xantid Swarm or Defense Grid or Orim's Chant? Is there a general strategy to follow or is it just mulligan for Force and hope to survive until turn four?

There's no way to know for certain exactly which build they're running which will invalidate certain strategies. Mulliganing for Force will rarely work like you want it to, not to mention that realistically, you WON'T know they're playing Iggy Pop game 1. Until people have settled on a single strategy or even agree on a decklist, it could be bad if I were to say, 'You should Mulligan for Force' which is good against Swarm, but bad against Chant. The strategy will ALWAYS be, versatility.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Ok, not much left for the matchup analysis thing but I wantd to see if there was any particular matchups that people wanted to cover that have been discussed recently and that I have a strategy or two in mind for. Just for reference, the decks that I have done are; Goblins, the Mirror, Threshold (U/G/W Threshold both Hatfield and Bardo/Nightmare) and Hannifish (because Bardo's a jerkface :P), I can't do one for Fairy Stompy (Sorry Eldariel), and Life from the Loam decks are always so vastly different that it makes singular strategies hard to determine. Jack Elgin decks shouldn't be an issue, and Red Death/Deadguy/Stupid Black Decks are going to depend on whether or not you are able to Meditate. Iggy Pop hasn't settled on a single anti-Solidarity plan, so there's no real way to discuss that. I can't really think of anything that I've missed that would still be relevant and that I have a plan for. So, throw out some requests and I'll see what I can do.


Ahhh Dave Gearhart speaks again! As a matter of fact, im almost certain that everyone would enjoy hearing your little strategies for Goblins, The Mirror, and Thresh. Seeming as how these three decks make up the "Tier-1", any information you have to give would most def. be helpful


p.s.= With little said recently concerning proper sideboarding, perhaps you should also include your current general sideboarding strategies for the top tier.

[Reagens]

We still have a lot of landstill in our meta (I know). Altough I am not having too many difficulties with the deck I would be very interested in hearing your general strategy and sideboarding for that.
Last week I tested a few games against the 'terrageddon' deck that is very popular here in Belgium and the Netherlands (It's really 1 player winning everything with that deck). The reason why it's so succesful is because there is virtually no combo here and a lot of goblins. Either way I went 5-0 as het tried adjusting his sideboard. The key is having a 3rd turn remand for his armageddon or force of will.

[Tacosnape]

We still have a lot of landstill in our meta (I know). Altough I am not having too many difficulties with the deck I would be very interested in hearing your general strategy and sideboarding for that.


I've never had much trouble with Landstill. Remand and Twincast drain their counters and stifles, and their clock is slow, meaning you can often build up to six or seven lands before attempting to go off. It gets a little tougher post-board with Meddling Mage, so try to keep them off the Mage.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

We still have a lot of landstill in our meta (I know). Altough I am not having too many difficulties with the deck I would be very interested in hearing your general strategy and sideboarding for that.
Last week I tested a few games against the 'terrageddon' deck that is very popular here in Belgium and the Netherlands (It's really 1 player winning everything with that deck). The reason why it's so succesful is because there is virtually no combo here and a lot of goblins. Either way I went 5-0 as het tried adjusting his sideboard. The key is having a 3rd turn remand for his armageddon or force of will.



Against Landstill, board in 3x Twincast, 2x Brainfreeze, and 1x Echoing Truth (if they run Meddling Mage). Also, Peek is incredible against Landstill. Seeming as how Landstill's clock is horribly slow, you shouldn't have a problem building up lands and going off with ease, or with multiple Brainfreezes.

[Silverdragon]

When you give advice on Sideboarding could you please also list the cards that you board out? Often I have more problems deciding what to take out than what to board in, especially since the whole deck is one fine tuned engine.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

When you give advice on Sideboarding could you please also list the cards that you board out? Often I have more problems deciding what to take out than what to board in, especially since the whole deck is one fine tuned engine.

Hm... indeed Solidarity is one fine tuned engine. With that being said, sideboarding varies match to match, even against the same deck. Alot of a sideboard strategy involves knowing the capabilities of your opponent. But for a typical Landstill list.

I would board out

-4x Remand ( yes it is a counter, but Twincast > Remand)
-1x FOW or Turnabout ( Random 1 of, doesn't cut into the combo horribly)


That's just my idea for a typical sideboard plan, but I could be off according to Gearhart and other Solidarity Gurus. Just go with you gut instinct, know your opponent, know their deck, and you should be just fine.

[noobslayer]

For the record, I may not be a Solidarity guru, but Shady's boarding plan is usually what I go along with. (I board the turnabout over the force).

[Deep6er]

For the record, I may not be a Solidarity guru, but Shady's boarding plan is usually what I go along with. (I board the turnabout over the force).


Listen, I need you guys to do me a favor and NOT be retarded. The board plan is -1 Remand, -2 Reset, -1 Turnabout, for +3 Twincast, +1 Bounce Spell. Seriously, I remember telling you this one Shady. Quit being retarded.

[Poron]

my SB has 4 Annul instead of 4 Hydroblast.

Annul resolves CotV, Pillar, Smokestack, Tangle Wire, etc. etc. problems. the only cards we fear are Ench. of artifacts...

[noobslayer]

Thanky you for the reality check Dave. I needed it "THIS MUCH."

Unless your meta is ridden with Stax decks (in that case you could be playing the wrong deck), I wouldn't even consider annuls in the board.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Listen, I need you guys to do me a favor and NOT be retarded. The board plan is -1 Remand, -2 Reset, -1 Turnabout, for +3 Twincast, +1 Bounce Spell. Seriously, I remember telling you this one Shady. Quit being retarded.

Hm... I'm almost certain you didn't run over the board plan for Landstill with me. If you're talking about VA, you only ran over the Mirror, Thresh, and Goblins with me, not Landstill.

[Weekend Daddy]

A quick question about the mechanics of Twincast. Being a relatively new Solidarity player, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the mechanics of what the deck can perform.

If you play Brain Freeze, and they play Counterspell. If you Remand the Freeze and play it again, would that mean you get double the storm amount + 2 from the Remand and the second playing of freeze?

And if you play something like Meditate and they use counterspell, and you Twincast the meditate, can you then Remand the Meditate that is now under the stack to play it again? And if so, does the Remand need to be played immediately after the Twincast or can you do it a few spells down the stack when you feel like it?

[Anarky87]

A quick question about the mechanics of Twincast. Being a relatively new Solidarity player, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the mechanics of what the deck can perform.

If you play Brain Freeze, and they play Counterspell. If you Remand the Freeze and play it again, would that mean you get double the storm amount + 2 from the Remand and the second playing of freeze?

And if you play something like Meditate and they use counterspell, and you Twincast the meditate, can you then Remand the Meditate that is now under the stack to play it again? And if so, does the Remand need to be played immediately after the Twincast or can you do it a few spells down the stack when you feel like it?

1.) Yes, because Counterspell does nothing to the Storm trigger and Remand would counter BF and put it back in your hand for you to cast again with double storm.

2.) Yes, you can cast Twincast on the Meditate in question. You can also then respond to the Twincast with a Remand, but then the Twincast would fizzle I believe, because there would be no Meditate there to copy anymore when Twincast resolves. You could Twincast the Meditate, draw the four cards, respond to the Meditate with a Remand on it and cast it again for four more cards. You can also Twincast the Meditate, get your four cards, play other spells while Meditate is still on the stack and then Remand it when you feel the need.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

A quick question about the mechanics of Twincast. Being a relatively new Solidarity player, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the mechanics of what the deck can perform.

If you play Brain Freeze, and they play Counterspell. If you Remand the Freeze and play it again, would that mean you get double the storm amount + 2 from the Remand and the second playing of freeze?

And if you play something like Meditate and they use counterspell, and you Twincast the meditate, can you then Remand the Meditate that is now under the stack to play it again? And if so, does the Remand need to be played immediately after the Twincast or can you do it a few spells down the stack when you feel like it?


1. If you cast Brain Freeze ( w'ell say it's the 10th spell played of the turn), 9 copies of Brain Freeze go onto the stack. If for some odd reason, your opponent chooses to try and Counterspell the initial Brainfreeze and you Remand it back to your hand in response, then yes, if you re-cast the Brainfreeze you will now have the 9 copies from the original, plus 12 more from the second casted Brainfreeze. (The three addiitonal copies come from 1. First Brainfreeze 2. Remand 3. Counterspell .) Then the second Brainfreeze you just casted would be on the stack as well, after the storm copies.

2. If you cast Meditate and pass priority and your opponent trys to Counterspell the Meditate on the stack, then yes you sure can Twincast it and then Remand the initial Meditate. After your Twincast resolves targeting your Meditate, and you draw the 4 cards off of the copied Meditate, then the stack will still look like Meditate, with a Counterspell above it. Remember, the top card on the stack (last one played) will resolve first. Therefore, after your cards have been drawn from Twincast, you can Remand your initial Meditate and cast it over the Counterspell to draw more cards. Now I'm not quite sure what your trying to get at as to when you have to cast Remand. The Remand can be played at any time before his Counterspell resolves on your Meditate, thus removing it from the stack. If there are spells played between your opponent's Counterspell and your attempt to cast Remand, then sure, you can cast the Remand whenever, as long as the Meditate you want to target is still on the stack. <3 Teh Stack



Hope I could be of help.

[noobslayer]

Rules to live by as a Solidarity player:

1. The stack is your bitch.

2. You always have a response. (Thank you Dave for this one)

3. Know how priority works.

Also, as far as mechanics of the, the inclusion of Remand added a lot fo nifty tricks. There's also things like Brainfreezing yourself to put flash of insight in the yard, then interrupting the stack, stacking your deck, and winning.

[Taurelin]

As I'm very interested in the deck and trying to learn how to handle it, I have one serious question.

I would like the experts' opinion on the impact of the following card from Planar Chaos:


Extirpate B
Instant
Split Second
Choose target card, other than a basic land in a graveyard. Search its controller's graveyard, hand and library for all cards with the same name and remove them from the game.

As far as I can see, the card is the absolute horror for us. Losing an essential spell (High Tide, Reset, Meditate, Cunning wish) after resolving the first copy hurts seriously.


2. You always have a response. (Thank you Dave for this one)

Even worse is the fact that the split second ability takes away our holy power over the stack and steals our response (cf. quote above).

The good news is that the card will probably appear in decks that we already have a bad matchup against (Pikula, Hannifish). But if the card becomes more popular in the meta, so will our enemy decks.

What do you think?

[Eldariel]

First, the good news: Cunning Wish removes itself from the game when it resolves, so unless they manage to force you to discard it, they won't be able to deprive you of your Wishes. That also means that you'll never lose access to anything permanently.

Also, you generally don't need to resolve any given spell more than once so them using it midcombo is of minimal importance (unless you happen to have multiples in hand, but just don't pass priority before they're all on stack if that's an issue).

Bad news: Combined with discard, that can be a pain, being a cheap, uncounterable pseudo-Cranial. Just go off with what you still have and use Brainstorm wisely, that's the best advice I can give (for example, to protect Cunning Wishes since they allow you to mostly ignore Extirpate).

[Taurelin]

This means that Cunning Wish becomes even more important than it already used to be. So if I expect first turn Duress + 2nd turn Extirpate, should I mulligan any opening hand containing Wish but no Brainstorm?

Could it also be a reason to rethink the number of the card itself, i.e. run 4 Cunning Wish instead of 3?

[Eldariel]

This means that Cunning Wish becomes even more important than it already used to be. So if I expect first turn Duress + 2nd turn Extirpate, should I mulligan any opening hand containing Wish but no Brainstorm?

Could it also be a reason to rethink the number of the card itself, i.e. run 4 Cunning Wish instead of 3?

Na, you should mulligan as normal. Losing just one set of cards doesn't generally hurt you that bad. If they take out Wishes, it shouldn't be that much of a problem anyways unless they also have some hate you need to deal with or take out another set too. So don't worry about it too much.

[Poron]

don't worry? imho Extiparte will seriously hurt Solidarity... just thinking at the first "shot".

first high tide, first meditate, first reset.
resp: extirpate on reset.
now you can count just on 3 turnabouts to go off.

a nightmare.

[Silverdragon]

Of course I'd rather not see Extirpate played against me but it's not the nightmare you make it look like. Like others have said before it gets harder to combo off but it doesn't get impossible. Remember your deck is extremely redundant and unless they put you on a fast clock you can easily plan how to play around it.
Yes sometimes you will just lose to a timely Extirpate but think about it, you already sometimes lose against Defense Grid or Meddling Mage or even Gaea's Blessing. It's just one more card to worry about in the sea of hate that already exists and Solidarity has shown time and time again that it can win through hate.

[Eldariel]

don't worry? imho Extiparte will seriously hurt Solidarity... just thinking at the first "shot".

first high tide, first meditate, first reset.
resp: extirpate on reset.
now you can count just on 3 turnabouts to go off.

a nightmare.

Or Cunning Wish. I've often witnessed just not drawing any more Resets or plain going off with just High Tides and Turnabouts and winning easily. One Reset is already 8 mana most of the time, which is quite a lot to keep going off.

[Bahamuth]

Hello everyone

I'm relatively new to Solidarity and also to this forum. Seeing the discussion about the sideboarding against different decks, i really started to wonder if i've been doing it correctly. Is there any chance someone could list the sideboard plan against the most played decks (tier 1 &2)? I would really appreciate it. :smile: