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Anarky87
01-21-2007, 12:22 PM
don't worry? imho Extiparte will seriously hurt Solidarity... just thinking at the first "shot".

first high tide, first meditate, first reset.
resp: extirpate on reset.
now you can count just on 3 turnabouts to go off.

a nightmare.

I don't see it as a nightmare, but ya know what I think it will do? It will provide another challenge for players very familiar with the deck, but it will completely bone people who have no clue how to play the deck properly, in essence, creating an impossible situation that they think will destroy the deck. And will probably throw their hands up in disgust and walk away.

This card does not 'destroy' Solidarity, the same way Angel's Grace didn't destroy it. It will provide another obstacle that the deck will have to overcome, but unless you don't know the intricacies of the deck, it's nothing that can't be played around. I, like Eldariel has said, have gone off more than a few times off of 1 Reset and 1-2 Turnabouts, only finding my second Reset at the end of the combo. Just play smart and if you see black, assume that you might have to play around Extirpate just like you would Mage, Duress, Hymn, FoW, Daze, REB/HB, etc. Be smart, people, and you'll be fine.

Weekend Daddy
01-21-2007, 12:59 PM
Hello everyone

I'm relatively new to Solidarity and also to this forum. Seeing the discussion about the sideboarding against different decks, i really started to wonder if i've been doing it correctly. Is there any chance someone could list the sideboard plan against the most played decks (tier 1 &2)? I would really appreciate it. :smile:

The neat part of Solidarity is that half of it's sideboard is for actually sideboarding, and the other half is utility for Wishes during a usual game. As usual, you want it as all instants so that if it NEEDS to be Wishable, it's at your disposal
You want your Wishfood to look something like:

1-Turnabaout
1-Meditate
1/2-Brain Freeze
1-Stroke Of Genius (In case you find out they are using Gaeas Blessing)
1-Chain Of Vapor (Cheap Bounce Spell)
1-Echoing Truth (This one is in case they throw Chalice Of The Void for 1 or multiple True Believers, Meddling Mages)

Other than that, you want 4 Hydroblasts for a Goblins matchup. 4 Disrupt is said to be good to board in as well, but I have heard it's best against B/W Confidant builds and I think Iggy Pop.
Sided Twincasts are apparently good for Threshhold matchups, which are more frequent in the format.
Consider Evacuation for heavy creature decks/Goblins.

NANTUKO_SHADY
01-21-2007, 06:06 PM
The neat part of Solidarity is that half of it's sideboard is for actually sideboarding, and the other half is utility for Wishes during a usual game. As usual, you want it as all instants so that if it NEEDS to be Wishable, it's at your disposal
You want your Wishfood to look something like:

1-Turnabaout
1-Meditate
1/2-Brain Freeze
1-Stroke Of Genius (In case you find out they are using Gaeas Blessing)
1-Chain Of Vapor (Cheap Bounce Spell)
1-Echoing Truth (This one is in case they throw Chalice Of The Void for 1 or multiple True Believers, Meddling Mages)

Other than that, you want 4 Hydroblasts for a Goblins matchup. 4 Disrupt is said to be good to board in as well, but I have heard it's best against B/W Confidant builds and I think Iggy Pop.
Sided Twincasts are apparently good for Threshhold matchups, which are more frequent in the format.
Consider Evacuation for heavy creature decks/Goblins.



The optimal sideboard=

2x Brainfreeze
4x Hydroblast
3x Twincast
1x Meditate
1x Turnabout
1x Echoing Truth
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Rebuild
1x Stroke of Genius

Silverdragon
01-21-2007, 07:09 PM
I don't like the term "optimal" in your post NANTUKO_SHADY. It is a great sideboard that's for sure but just to give an example I play in a meta where Chalice or Stax is nearly non-existant (unless I feel like playing it myself) so I replaced Rebuild with Wipe Away. There's also not much Fish or Thresh but I have to face things like Duress or various landdestruction (yes even Stone Rain) almost every second round so I replaced 2 Twincasts with 2 Disrupts.
I agree that a good sideboard should contain at least 1x Meditate, Stroke and Turnabout, 2x Brainfreeze, 3x Different Bouncespells, 4x Hydroblast and some amount of Twincast however especially the bouncespells may vary in certain metas.

NANTUKO_SHADY
01-21-2007, 07:17 PM
I don't like the term "optimal" in your post NANTUKO_SHADY. It is a great sideboard that's for sure but just to give an example I play in a meta where Chalice or Stax is nearly non-existant (unless I feel like playing it myself) so I replaced Rebuild with Wipe Away. There's also not much Fish or Thresh but I have to face things like Duress or various landdestruction (yes even Stone Rain) almost every second round so I replaced 2 Twincasts with 2 Disrupts.
I agree that a good sideboard should contain at least 1x Meditate, Stroke and Turnabout, 2x Brainfreeze, 3x Different Bouncespells, 4x Hydroblast and some amount of Twincast however especially the bouncespells may vary in certain metas.

Pardon my use of the word "optimal." The sideboard I posted is the current sideboard to run at an unknown meta or a major legacy tournament.

Bahamuth
01-22-2007, 10:09 AM
Thanks for responding this quickly :smile:

My sideboard was almost like that before I asked, but i was wondering what to side in/out against different types of decks. I've already read how to sideboard against some decks, like thresh. I still don't know what to side out against Goblin to replace it with hydroblast, or against Pikula for the Twincasts.

Excuse me my bad english by the way.

Poron
01-22-2007, 11:03 AM
are we sure the 4x Mana Severance + 4 Goblin Charbelcher by side isn't a good idea?

g2 everyone should side hate vs solidarity and anyway it's very easy to have 9 mana turn 3 or 4 for us..

Pathian
01-22-2007, 11:45 AM
are we sure the 4x Mana Severance + 4 Goblin Charbelcher by side isn't a good idea?

g2 everyone should side hate vs solidarity and anyway it's very easy to have 9 mana turn 3 or 4 for us..

That would take up far too many SB slots and severely weaken your wish board. Either that or you take out your hydroblasts and twincasts which are far too good to not use

Deep6er
01-22-2007, 02:29 PM
OK, I know it took me awhile but here you go. This will be a series of posts so try not to interrupt before I'm finished. One of the Mods will be merging them together at the end so they'll be easier to read.

Before I get started though, just a couple of things.
@ Poron: You were joking about the Severance/Belcher thing right? The only way to have that much mana turn 3, is to play Reset. Which, oddly enough, has a funny little drawback.
@The guy who sided in Twincast against Deadguy: Seriously, don't. Just board in a Meditate for a Cunning Wish.
Goblins game 1: Exceedingly straightforward here. The biggest problem I see here is turn two. The question of Remanding a Piledriver (or whatever) or playing Impulse (or other optimization) is a very difficult one. Most often it will depend on the hand. Given a situation where the hand needs land, I will Impulse. In fact, I would go as far as to say that Remanding the Piledriver is the wrong play. Remanding the next turn's Warchief/Matron is invariably going to generate an extra half turn for you. It's worth noting here, that if you can tell that they are mulliganing FOR )ackey, it's worthwhile to CONSIDER mulliganing for Force. Their plan consists entirely of an opening that goes busted before you break them, so having the Answer to that plan MIGHT be worth it. Don't mulligan for Force if you think you can race the Lackey and if they go to something stupid like 4, just don't worry about it.

Goblins Game 2/3: This is where the shit hits the fan. Goblins has quite a few ways to board and few of them are pleasant for you. It should be noted that these are broad strategies and aren't absolutes. One thing that should be promoted above all else is versatility. Obviously it's worth noting that if you know EXACTLY how he's going to board, then you should adjust accordingly.

The overall strategy post boad is to counter/destroy troublesome cards in order to buy time to combo. Since the boards are heavily dependant on the player, you might be able to glean some information from how he sems to view the matchup in game one.

In the past, Red Elemental Blast was a popular choice for the Goblin Board. I'm sensing a minor shift to the new plan of Chalice/Pillar. The combination of those cards is frustrating. Pillar is easy enough to deal with, but Chalice is a bitch. Thus, a new plan is in the works. I have noticed that some people plan on boarding Blast + Chalice. I find that rather humorous as they are completely dependant on you bouncing their Chalice in order to 'turn on' their hate. I have also noticed irrelevant cards like Blast + Crypt.

I'll address the combination that I think is the most effective first. Chalice + Pillar is a solid combination as Chalice is also strong against Threshold and Iggy Pop. Pillar on the other hand is ONLY good against Solidarity. Anyway, the way the current board is constructed, this combination is one of the more difficult approaches that Goblins takes. I'd like to stress that Game 2 is very difficult for the Solidarity player as you don't know what kind of cards they have for you. Anyway, back to the topic. Siding the way I've advocated before could be a bit of an issue as that strategy decreases the number of answers to Chalice and could end up losing you the game. With this taken into consideration, I'm experimenting with various board plans in order to maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses (like any good Sideboard should). However, Solidarity's sideboard is necessarily constrained with the limits imposed by the Wishboard. As you can see, this is quite the dilemma. Ewokslayer says he boards in 3 Blasts and an Echoing Truth if he expects both, but I'm not sure how effective that would be. I think that the board plan that bests answers those threats is -1 Twincast, -1 Meditate, -1 Brain Freeze, +1 Echoing Truth, +2 Hydroblast. The new plan being that of slowing them down as much as possible to find Force/Blast to deal with the troublesome permanents and Wish/Bounce if they resolved. Other than that, stay on your toes. Try not to overthink the matchup but make sure that you trust your instincts. If that fails, trust me. I've done this a lot.


Solidarity Game 1: Wow, what a doozy. This matchup is going to be the true test of your ability to read your opponent. I can really only tell you a few overarching strategies here that I employ. I can't stress enough that these strategies will only work if you draw the cards to support it. Don't use these strategies ALL THE TIME. They are guidelines to use if you see a situation has come up that mirrors what I'm talking about here. Anyway, on to the tips. I've found that sometimes it's worth it to stifle you development in order to set back theirs. Remanding their early spells can be very useful as sometimes that will be enough to terrify lesser opponents into never playing another spell because thay thin it isn't safe after the fourth turn. Now granted, some people may be intelligent enough to read you so you're going to have to learn how to deal with that. While it can often come down to who drew better, the more versatile and knowledgeable player will ALWAYS have an advantage.

Solidarity Game 2/3: Man, that shit just LOVES to hit the fan. This game is rough for BOTH players. I change my sideboarding plan drastically given what I've read from my opponent and whether I've won the first game. If I win the first game, I usually like to side out 3 Resets, 3 High Tide for the 3 Twincast, 2 Brain Freeze, 1 Turnabout plan. I know it sounds odd boarding out High Tide, but game two's dynamics are much more difficult to evaluate. For instance, time becomes a real factor... but only for the player that lost. It isn't unusual to win these games 1-0. If you win game 1, don't even worry about trying to stall,this game is forced to go long because of the 8 Twincasts/Freezes. It's INCREDIBLY dangerous to do things at his point and the burden is entirely on the player that lost game 1. Now, if you lose game 1, things are quickly going down the shitter. You MUST keep a level head and don't rush everything. Yes, it's important to be aware of the clock, but not at the expense of your good sense. If I lost Game 1, I usually board out 2 Reset, 1 Remand, and 1 Force of Will for 3 Twincasts and a Freeze leaving one to Wish for. It's a little difficult to explain the removal of Force. In this game, you MUST play the Tide first. Already at a loss in Card Advantage, you also have to combo AND kill. Too much card disadvantage and you will not be able to complete these things. I leave in Remands because I want to try to stifle their development so they don't overload me with Twincasts/Freezes. Remember that these aren't rules, they're guidelines and even I will change them to follow my instincts against various people.

Deep6er
01-22-2007, 02:32 PM
Threshold Game 1: Now, here's the frustrating one. There does seem to be a wide variety of threshold decks which makes this a bit of a pain. I'll try to identify which variant I'm talking about beforehand, but it will still probably be very confusing anyway.


U/G/W Threshold (Hatfield Version) Game 1: This is the one I've done the most testing against. They have a draw engine every bit as strong as yours and more true Card Advantage. Daze is also really strong here as you tap out for the first four turns. Once you've figured out they're playing this version, I've found that a pretty good way to kick things off is to sculpt a hand with double Remand, Force, Reset, Tide, and Meditate. Flash is also AMAZING. Try to find the resource that they're targeting and Remand them out of the way. Remand becomes a better counterspell and will also give you the information that you need. Since this version is a tad less aggressive than Mental Note versions, it's not terribly unlikely to reach turn 7 or even 8. Peek is rather nice here as you can deduce their strategy beforehand and logically think out the next play with all the information at your disposal. The other interesting dynamic here is their familiarity with the tricks in your deck. Remanding some of their spells to gain time or Twincasting a Predict when they only know the top card (or even Brain Freezing in resonse) mean that their primary Card Advantage tool might have a REAL drawback as oposed to the 'fake' drawback it has now. Don't take this the wrong way though. Versatility is your strength and it's important in this matchup moreso than any others. Take what's given to you and Roll With The Punches.

U/G/W Threshold Bardo/Nightmare/Maindeck Meddling Mage/Mental Note Version Game 1: This one is far more irritating. I'm in agreement with the Hatfields that maindeck Meddling Mages are terrible and are unnecessary for beating combo. However, this is neither the time nor the place for such discussion and we'll move right on to the heart of the matter. This version absolutely needs Mage to beat you. They have no Card Advantage and thus, when it's about time to go off, they'll only have two 'Real' counters in hand and that's easy enough to play around with Peek. However, should Mage stick, this game gets quite a bit more irritating. Obviously, if Mage sticks, things are bad and there's n need to elaborate further on this. In reality, the ENTIRETY of this game is them trying to get mage to stick.


Just a couple of brief words addressing the Game 1 scenario. Keep a level head. Ewokslayer plays a bit slower than I do and this has resulted in him drawing games, some of which were winnable. It's really easy for this match to drag as the Solidarity player will inevitably eat a great deal of time thinking various plays through. It's important to remember this is one of the very few situations in which time is a REAL factor. This is also the situation where your ability to read your opponent can reap significant tangible rewards and this is the situation you should be practicing for.



U/G/W Threshold (Hatfield Version) Game 2/3: The board plan of multiple small Freezes is slightly weaker against their Loaming Shaman/Jotun Grunt plan. Ironically, it's still good to board bounce though. So, the recommendations are; -4 Remand, -1 Meditate, -1 Turnabout, for +3 Twincast, +2 Brain Freeze, and +1 Echoing Truth. The game plan becomes very odd here. Is usually best to wait for them to play two or three spells, and just try to storm them for a lot even if it isn't lethal. Use Cunning Wish for bounce or for 'Fog' (Turnabout). I won't lie, this is definitely a difficult matchup. That being said, it's certainly not out of the question for some players to feel overwhelmed and frustrated by the matchup, but perseverance, and a fair bit of luck, can see you through it.

U/G/W Threshold Bardo/Nightmare/Maindeck Meddling Mage/Mental Note Version Game 2/3: With a couple more ways to answer a resolved Meddling Mage, this matchup changes a bit. It's still important to try to Force Mage, but even if that fails, you still have the bounce spell that you boarded in. Interestingly enough, if they go for the 'Geddon plan, and you can bounce their reature in response, it might be worthwhile. You have more land and good draw to be able to find it. Not a plan you should go for every single time, but just one of those things you should think about. Other than that, things are reasonably apparent. Twincast is AMAZING in this matchup and should be used accordingly. The thing to consider in this post boarded matchup is their lack of ANY Card Advantage. Every single creature they play is going to be -1 Card and every Force is -2. You have Flash (and a not terribly reliable Meditate), which isn't a lot, but it's still more than them.

U/W/B HanniFish Game 1: This match is similar to the Bardo/Nightmare Threshold lists but with Confidant to generate Card Advantage and utility creatures instead of strong ones. They have Stifle though. However, recently I've been playing as if every deck I've been playing against has Stifle and been cracking Fetches either turn one (on the play), or when they're tapped out. I fail to see a particularly solid reason to walk into Stifle, and have started protecting against it. Yes, this means that I don't have Brainstorm + Fetch as often, but it also means that random Stifles are much weaker against me. Anyway, this match is still similar, but with the added benefit that Meditate is less often going to suck pre-combo. Their clock is a tad slower and you can take advantage of this with Remand which will open up Meditate plays. Flash is still ridiculous here and should be used at opportune times (whether that is pre-combo or not is purely your discretion). Other than that, keep a level head and look for an opening. Unless they've scouted beforehand, they're not likely to know what you're playing, which will give you a tremendous edge as they MUST have a hand that can deal with Lackey. Therefore, their opening hand in this game is likely to be weaker than had they known. Peek is really good here and should be combined with Force/Remand in order to dictate the pace of the game.

U/W/B HanniFish Game 2/3: This is still similar to Threshold, but now they have Duress and know what you're playing. However, thanks to JRP and some intense analysis (stupid fucking math), I've come across the correct way to board for this matchup. -1 Remand, -1 Reset, -1 Force of Will, -1 Turnabout, for +1 Echoing Truth/Chain of Vapor, +3 Twincast. Do NOT board in the Freezes. Since Grunt is their only strong threat, there's no reason to walk into it. Other than that, the match should play out in a reasonably predictable manner. Either he draws relevant cards (enough of them to matter and in sequence) or he loses. Very simple.


Well then. Just a double post, didn't expect it to be able to hold that much. Anyway, decks like Landstill/Stupid Black Decks/Other decks have been discussed in the past and the boarding strategy hasn't changed. Also, quit worrying about Extirpate. The decks it MIGHT fit into are either unpopular or not good (Red Death and Deadguy respectively) so it's not something to worry about. The card is actually worse than Meddling Mage against goblins and I was surprised that something that bad existed. Granted, the card will probably be in the Sideboard, but seriously, stop worrying about it.

Also @ Silverdragon: It doesn't make sense to just board two Disrupts in your case. Disrupt is a 4 or 0 card. If you don't play enough, then you'll never see it early, which is the only time it's good. Also, too much counter magic is really going to screw with comboing off against the decks you're talking about. If, however, you're looking for a couple of mini combo's, then it's a tad more defensible as they will likely not be able to get through the countermagic you have at that point.

Silverdragon
01-22-2007, 04:40 PM
WOW! That was almost epic :)
Now there's one thing that confuses me: Against Goblins you only board in 2 Hydroblasts and 1 Bounce so what are the other 2 Hydroblasts that are usually in the board for? Is this only the boardplan against the specific strategy of Goblins bringing in Pillar and Chalice?

Deep6er
01-22-2007, 06:17 PM
WOW! That was almost epic :)
Now there's one thing that confuses me: Against Goblins you only board in 2 Hydroblasts and 1 Bounce so what are the other 2 Hydroblasts that are usually in the board for? Is this only the boardplan against the specific strategy of Goblins bringing in Pillar and Chalice?

Yes. If you take out too many Forces/Remands then you can't deal with Chalices beforehand. It's a difficult setup, but I'm still working on it and this is the best thing I've come up with.

NANTUKO_SHADY
01-24-2007, 01:32 PM
Sick write-up Gearheart... it brought a tear to my eye. :cry:

URABAHN
01-24-2007, 03:41 PM
I don't see it as a nightmare, but ya know what I think it will do? It will provide another challenge for players very familiar with the deck, but it will completely bone people who have no clue how to play the deck properly, in essence, creating an impossible situation that they think will destroy the deck. And will probably throw their hands up in disgust and walk away.

This card does not 'destroy' Solidarity, the same way Angel's Grace didn't destroy it. It will provide another obstacle that the deck will have to overcome, but unless you don't know the intricacies of the deck, it's nothing that can't be played around. I, like Eldariel has said, have gone off more than a few times off of 1 Reset and 1-2 Turnabouts, only finding my second Reset at the end of the combo. Just play smart and if you see black, assume that you might have to play around Extirpate just like you would Mage, Duress, Hymn, FoW, Daze, REB/HB, etc. Be smart, people, and you'll be fine.

Furthermore, and I just thought about this, what's to stop Solidarity from responding to their own effects? If Solidarity knows the opponent is packing Extirpate and they're sitting on multiple High Tides and Resets, play 'em in response to each other. If the opponent is playing Extirpate, it's unlikely they're playing Counterspells, because aggo control decks like U/G/b Gro don't need Extirpate.

"I'll play High Tide, before I pass priority back to you, I'll play High Tide. Any responses? No? I THOUGHT SO! Now I'll play Reset, but before I pass priority back to you, I'll play ANOTHER Reset. That Reset resolves and I play spells in response to the Reset still on the stack until I need it to resolve to untap my lands."

Where do you live, Poron? What are the Solidarity players like where you live? Earlier in this thread, you said Gaea's Blessing meant "gg" for Solidarity, recently you said Abeyance would be good in Solidarity, and even more recently, you've touted Extirpate as being a "nightmare" for Solidarity. I don't know who you're testing against, but I think they could use a few lessons from Ewokslayer, NANTUKO_SHADY, and that other guy...y'know, the loudmouth who created the deck. :laugh:

Tacosnape
01-24-2007, 07:08 PM
Furthermore, and I just thought about this, what's to stop Solidarity from responding to their own effects?

This is a fantastic idea to apply to Solidarity vs. Extirpate.

I've been using the "Do something before passing priority" trick for awhile with like, Pernicious Deed/Survival against Krosan Grip, but this is another very useful aspect of it.

This just goes to show that Solidarity's chances fluctuate wildly based on the capabilities of the deck's wielder.

Anarky87
01-24-2007, 10:04 PM
How would one go about explaining that to people who won't understand that concept? As I know by using this against my locals and others, I'm bound to come up with players who won't understand me doing that, causing all kinds of havoc. And, since no one around here believes me about any kind of rule interaction...

Eldariel
01-25-2007, 08:39 AM
How would one go about explaining that to people who won't understand that concept? As I know by using this against my locals and others, I'm bound to come up with players who won't understand me doing that, causing all kinds of havoc. And, since no one around here believes me about any kind of rule interaction...

Print the points regarding priority from Comprehensive Rules Book or some Judge-article and tell them to take a look.

Tacosnape
01-25-2007, 12:08 PM
How would one go about explaining that to people who won't understand that concept? As I know by using this against my locals and others, I'm bound to come up with players who won't understand me doing that, causing all kinds of havoc. And, since no one around here believes me about any kind of rule interaction...

Eldariel's pretty much right. Your choices are to explain to them the priority/timing rules in detail or to just not play the deck against them in casual games. I can't tell you how many people tried to Krosan Grip my Pernicious Deed/Survival the second it hit play. Their brilliant response to "You don't have priority yet" is usually "But it's Split Second! You can't respond!" You will invariably get this response from some people.

When I played Rifter, I kept a printout of the layering rules for Humility's sake in my deckbox at all times. Similarly, Timing and Priority rules are a good thing to print out and keep with your Solidarity deck at all times.

ImAChampion
01-25-2007, 01:31 PM
I am still learning how to play the deck and understand its complexity...so please bare with me. You can play multiple spells one right after the other without your opponent being able to respond to them? That sounds wacky so I will try and clarify.

I play:
High Tide, High Tide, Reset, Rest
My opponent can't do anything yet. Now I pass to him.

He plays:
Force of Will and Remand targeting both the Resets.
I know it isn't an optimal play...I am just using examples.

The Stack will empty like this:
1) Remand "counters" the Reset
2) FOW counters the other Reset
3) High Tide
4) High Tide
5) Now who has priority?

Add me to list of people that didn't know you could play multiple spells before your opponent could respond. I always thought it was action reaction...not action action action action reaction reaction. All the help is much appreciated.

Silverdragon
01-25-2007, 02:09 PM
On an empty stack the player whose turn it is has priority so because you played Resets obviously your opponent has priority. If he wants to play some spells now there's nothing you can do about it until he also wants them to resolve. To get them to resolve he has to pass priority so with all his spells on the stack it is now your time again to play whatever you want until you want your spells to resolve at which point you have to pass priority back to your opponent and so forth. Sorry if I complicated it a bit but I just felt like it ;)

edit: Forgot to add that you not only have to pass priority to get spells to resolve but also to get to the next step/phase in the turn when the stack is empty.

ImAChampion
01-25-2007, 02:23 PM
No that makes a lot of sense now that someone explained it. Ok onto another senerio. At what point do storm copies go on the stack? Example:

I Play: Spell, Spell, Spell, Spell, 14 Spells Total, Brain Freeze
Now I pass priority to my opponent:

He Plays: Trickbind targeting Brain Freeze

I understand that it counters all the copies but...does the effect go on the stack immediately and then the Trickbind counters the copies or do the copies wait until Brain Freeze resolves? A side question would be should I cast Brain Freeze with a full stack or an empty one? This doesn't apply if there is lethal damage on the stack obviously.

Again much appreciated.

Eldariel
01-25-2007, 02:29 PM
Please ask these questions in the Rules-forum in future, it's specifically for these issues. Anyway, Storm is an ability that triggers upon playing the spell, so you'll get a stack:

Stuff, Brain Freeze, Storm-ability.
Trickbind is cast, Stuff, Brain Freeze, Storm-ability, Trickbind.

Trickbind resolves countering Storm-ability, you're left with a stack of Stuff, Brain Freeze.


And cast Freeze when you need to. If there's stuff on the stack that you don't want to resolve, you'll obviously resolve to it. If there's stuff on the stack you need to resolve, obviously you'll let it resolve first. Once a spell is on the stack, it's considered 'played', so Storm-wise, it doesn't matter whether the rest of the stack has resolved or not.

Poron
01-26-2007, 08:10 PM
the anwear is: against a player which hard plays blue: never go off without Twincasts and Remand.

T is for TOOL
01-27-2007, 10:14 PM
Keep it on-topic people.

Reagens
01-29-2007, 04:27 AM
Question: what is the best way to play against raffinity (atog + fling)? I am talking about the version without any disruption and just goes for the quick aggro win. Altough results aren't dramatic I have the feeling I should be able to get more then 50/50 results.
The problem is they very consistently kill turn 3/4. Even with me remanding or forcing some of their spells. I also have the feeling that forcing a spell of theirs hurts me more then them.
Specifically which of the following spells are a must counter?
Disciple of the vault? Arcbound ravager? Dark Confidant?
Wishing for rebuild and casting it is generally one turn too slow.
What would be your boarding plan?
I am fully aware that after the first round there is very little chance I will meet this deck again in a tournament because it has some terrible match-ups but I refuse to give away a match that should be in Solidarity's favor.

URABAHN
01-29-2007, 05:20 AM
Question: what is the best way to play against raffinity (atog + fling)? I am talking about the version without any disruption and just goes for the quick aggro win. Altough results aren't dramatic I have the feeling I should be able to get more then 50/50 results.
The problem is they very consistently kill turn 3/4. Even with me remanding or forcing some of their spells. I also have the feeling that forcing a spell of theirs hurts me more then them.
Specifically which of the following spells are a must counter?
Disciple of the vault? Arcbound ravager? Dark Confidant?
Wishing for rebuild and casting it is generally one turn too slow.
What would be your boarding plan?
I am fully aware that after the first round there is very little chance I will meet this deck again in a tournament because it has some terrible match-ups but I refuse to give away a match that should be in Solidarity's favor.

Are you playing Rebuild in your sideboard? AFAIK, it's a race to Rebuild. Dig, dig, and dig for that Cunning Wish, then play Rebuild.

Reagens
01-29-2007, 05:28 AM
Are you playing Rebuild in your sideboard? AFAIK, it's a race to Rebuild. Dig, dig, and dig for that Cunning Wish, then play Rebuild.

I mentioned them killing turn 3/4 didn't I? Which makes the rebuild plan difficult enough, and when they are on the play impossible. Note also that if you look at their deck it is obvious you gain very little time with such a play. I have the feeling that I am countering the wrong spells or maybe doing something else wrong.

Edit:

What's the sb plan? Is there any point in trying to use the storm they generate (generally turn 2 or 3) to cast a little freeze? Or is it better not to board at all and go for the optimal setup for when you really need to combo?

NANTUKO_SHADY
01-29-2007, 06:40 AM
I mentioned them killing turn 3/4 didn't I? Which makes the rebuild plan difficult enough, and when they are on the play impossible. Note also that if you look at their deck it is obvious you gain very little time with such a play. I have the feeling that I am countering the wrong spells or maybe doing something else wrong.

You are correct in the fact that wishing for Rebuild can be too slow to stop Affinity, especially if they are on the play. The sure spells to counter are Cranial Plating and Disciple. Ravager and a few others are alright, but Cranial Plating and Disiciple of the Vault are what really sets you up for a very early death. I have found that I often have to attempt to go off on 3 lands against Affinity. The best thing you can do is try to shape your hand knowing you are going to be pressured early. No lies, Affinity can come flying out of the gates, but it's not un-winnable by any means.

Ewokslayer
01-29-2007, 09:58 AM
Rebuild is often too slow in the matchup, so be aware of that possibility while digging but don't go for it exclusively. It will usually buy you a turn or two which can be very important in getting your land count up.
You have to be very aware of your life total in this matchup as they can use the stack against you very well with Vialing in a Ravager/Tog or Disciple to combo you out. Remand is definitely golden in this matchup. Use it pretty much whenever you can though obviously remanding free stuff is fairly pointless. Force is generally suboptimal unless you have something to easily pitch to it (Brain Freeze or Flash of Insight in this matchup are pretty useless in your hand). Very often they will overextend there position with a lethal Berserk or Fling (Hopefully it will be a fling and countering that pretty much wins you the game)

Bahamuth
01-29-2007, 12:28 PM
I was wondering how you guys feel about having 3 Abeyance Sideboard and 1 Tundra main. I can see some advantages in it, but I'm not sure if its worth the splash of colour.

NANTUKO_SHADY
01-29-2007, 02:56 PM
I was wondering how you guys feel about having 3 Abeyance Sideboard and 1 Tundra main. I can see some advantages in it, but I'm not sure if its worth the splash of colour.

This idea has been brought up before, and tested by Solidarity players. The problem with adding white is that it makes your deck vulnerable to Wasteland, which is one of the reasons Solidarity is so great, it makes Wasteland a dead card besides a colorless mana producer. By adding in a Tundra, it has a large target on it for Wasteland unless you hold back a fetch and wait to crack it until you're ready to combo off. If your Tundra gets sent to hell, then not only will you not be able to cast Abeyance, but you will be down an island, which is HUGE when trying to go off, as I'm sure you know. Also, Abeyance doesn't seem that good to me. It's just a spell that will eat up your opponent's counters, which other relevant spells in your maindeck can already do. If your opponent can out-counter your Abeyance and the spells you play around it, you will lose. If your opponent can out-counter your untap and draw spells, you will lose. You running Abeyance isn't going to change the number of Counterspells in your opponent's hand. All it will do is draw a counter. Either they have enough counter and you lose, or they don't have enough and you win. Abeyance does very little to affect the outcome of a game. If it had split-second, well then that would be a very different story, but it doesn't. Therefore, don't run white.

1.) It doesn't do much.
2.) GL replacing three cards in your sideboard without dicking yourself over.

Ewokslayer
01-29-2007, 08:00 PM
This idea has been brought up before, and tested by Solidarity players. The problem with adding white is that it makes your deck vulnerable to Wasteland, which is one of the reasons Solidarity is so great, it makes Wasteland a dead card besides a colorless mana producer. By adding in a Tundra, it has a large target on it for Wasteland unless you hold back a fetch and wait to crack it until you're ready to combo off. If your Tundra gets sent to hell, then not only will you not be able to cast Abeyance, but you will be down an island, which is HUGE when trying to go off, as I'm sure you know. Also, Abeyance doesn't seem that good to me. It's just a spell that will eat up your opponent's counters, which other relevant spells in your maindeck can already do. If your opponent can out-counter your Abeyance and the spells you play around it, you will lose. If your opponent can out-counter your untap and draw spells, you will lose. You running Abeyance isn't going to change the number of Counterspells in your opponent's hand. All it will do is draw a counter. Either they have enough counter and you lose, or they don't have enough and you win. Abeyance does very little to affect the outcome of a game. If it had split-second, well then that would be a very different story, but it doesn't. Therefore, don't run white.

1.) It doesn't do much.
2.) GL replacing three cards in your sideboard without dicking yourself over.

Wasteland will rarely come up with one Tundra. The number of games against Goblins or Black Disruption decks that you will lose as a result of the Tundra is tiny. The big question is whether the cards that Tundra allows you play helps your other matchups enough to make up for this. For me Abeyance doesn't cut it. While it will draw a counter from your opponent it has a couple problems.
1) It costs two. Having to tap two lands prior to High Tide is alot. With four lands in play, Daze effectively stops you from combing with a leading Abeyance. If you cast High Tide prior to Abeyance, Abeyance hasn't really changed the dynamic as you need to have more must counters in hand than they have counters.
2) It doesn't take care of Meddling Mage

Now, problem one can be almost solved by Orim's Chant, however Chant doesn't draw a card and can stall the deck when comboing. In addition it doesn't do anything for problem 2.

jamest
01-29-2007, 08:19 PM
In the past, I've inquired about testing Pyroblast/REB on this thread. It handles countermagic and kills Mage for one mana and without the card disadvantage of Force.

Playing a single nonbasic shouldn't be an issue, because you can just fit it into the sideboard. Here's a sample sideboard:

1 Brain Freeze
1 High Tide / Turnabout / Meditate
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
4 Hydroblast / Twincast
4 Pyroblast
1 Volcanic Island

Pyroblast is a natural replacement for Twincast, because it would come into most matchups that Twincast would. We can also play a split of 2 Pyroblast 2 REB to avoid additional Mage issues.

NANTUKO_SHADY
01-29-2007, 09:52 PM
Pyroblast is a natural replacement for Twincast



The one flaw about this plan is that Twincast is RETARDED, and very much needed in the deck. Twincast > Pyroblast/REB any day. While REB does counter a blue spell for one/ kill Mage, keep in mind that that one happens to be a red mana source. If you only run that 1 Volcanic Island, that means you are only going to play at most 1 Pyroblast/REB until you play an untap spell. To me, this seems very poor. Not to mention, Twincast is sooooo much more versatile than Pyroblast/REB. Twincast doesn't just serve as a counter-copy, it copies your own and your opponent's draw/untap/whatever spells which allows you to control the stack. Controlling the stack= many wins! If you want to deal with Meddling Mage that badly and you aren't satsified with Echoing Truth, then try Wipe Away or something that has more versatality and actually costs blue to cast. I see where your going with your idea, but cutting Twincast is like chopping off one of your balls. You just can't go off as well. :confused:

jamest
01-29-2007, 11:50 PM
Twincast is RETARDED
Yeh, no kidding. Of course, I never ruled out Twincasts. For example:

1 Brain Freeze
1 Stroke of Genius
1 High Tide / Turnabout / Meditate
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
4 Pyroblast / Red Elemental Blast
4 Twincast
2 Hydroblast

I cut Chain of Vapor and moved Volcanic Island maindeck and left myself with two Hydroblasts. I'm sacrificing a little here and there, but nothing's free, right? I'm not claiming this is the best way to do things. Just trying to get some ideas going. Anyways, in my preliminary testing, the sideboard plan of +4 REB/Pyro +4 Twincast -4 Force -4 Remand is pretty good against countermagic decks.


If you only run that 1 Volcanic Island, that means you are only going to play at most 1 Pyroblast/REB until you play an untap spell. To me, this seems very poor.
The extra Pyro/REBs are needed to remove Meddling Mage in previous turns. You can also hit a Brainstorm or whatever draw spell beforehand.

NANTUKO_SHADY
01-30-2007, 06:40 AM
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stroke of Genius
1 High Tide / Turnabout / Meditate
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
4 Pyroblast / Red Elemental Blast
4 Twincast
2 Hydroblast



My current build runs 1x Twincast in the main, because it is randomly ridiculous to draw during games, and in theory, is never a dead card. If you move one of those Twincasts to the main, then that will at least allow you to have both Turnabout and Meditate in the sideboard, which are both key for the deck to function to it's fullest. Other than that, this would be the best sideboard option probably if you are set on running the red blasts. Sacrificing Chain of Vapor & 1x Brainfreeze seems much better than ditching Twincast.

noobslayer
01-30-2007, 10:02 AM
I'm running the same list as Shady, except -2 Peek +2 Opt (personal preference). There's never been one time where I thought I would want REB/Pyroblast. If you play enough with the deck you'll come to realize, that you should always be able to manipulate the situation to suit you, and that cards like oppoising countermagic and meddling mages are cards we already have solutions for.

Tacosnape
01-30-2007, 12:56 PM
I'm running the same list as Shady, except -2 Peek +2 Opt (personal preference). There's never been one time where I thought I would want REB/Pyroblast. If you play enough with the deck you'll come to realize, that you should always be able to manipulate the situation to suit you, and that cards like oppoising countermagic and meddling mages are cards we already have solutions for.

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who prefers the quad Opts to Peek.

NANTUKO_SHADY
01-30-2007, 02:36 PM
I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who prefers the quad Opts to Peek.

Mike Herbig anyone?

Lego
01-31-2007, 04:57 PM
Mike Herbig anyone?

Yeah man, how could you forget the guy who invented the deck?

NANTUKO_SHADY
01-31-2007, 06:05 PM
Yeah man, how could you forget the guy who invented the deck?

LOL :laugh: ... I sense a very angry asian man.

Deep6er
01-31-2007, 07:00 PM
LOL :laugh: ... I sense a very angry asian man.

Aaah whatever, Lego's just mad that he keeps on playing Jack Elgin decks and losing. Wait that last part was repetition. Whoa! Burn! Man, I'm so cool. :). On another note, besides some minor spelling errors (which I am WAY too lazy to fix), did anyone have any problems with the Matchup Analysis post(s)? Just wanted to make sure there was no confusion.

NANTUKO_SHADY
01-31-2007, 08:52 PM
did anyone have any problems with the Matchup Analysis post(s)? Just wanted to make sure there was no confusion.

Not that I know of. Your matchup analysis posts are straight as a Unicorn!


One thing though. In your Goblin's sideboard strategy, if the correct plan is to just bring in 2x Hydroblast, is it really necessary to run 4x in your board? The only other matchups I could see 4x blasts coming in against is something completely janky and random like Burn, which you should beat anyways, even with just 2x Hydroblasts sided in. I was just curious as to the use of the remaining 2 blasts in your sideboard.

Silverdragon
02-01-2007, 11:19 AM
Now there's one thing that confuses me: Against Goblins you only board in 2 Hydroblasts and 1 Bounce so what are the other 2 Hydroblasts that are usually in the board for? Is this only the boardplan against the specific strategy of Goblins bringing in Pillar and Chalice?

Yes. If you take out too many Forces/Remands then you can't deal with Chalices beforehand. It's a difficult setup, but I'm still working on it and this is the best thing I've come up with.

I asked about the same thing before and this is the answer I got. As I understand this you bring in all 4 Blasts if they don't play Chalice and bring in only 2 if they do board in Chalice.

NANTUKO_SHADY
02-01-2007, 02:51 PM
Thanks for the clarification.. I must have missed that sentence while reading.

legacyplayer0
02-01-2007, 02:58 PM
I asked about the same thing before and this is the answer I got. As I understand this you bring in all 4 Blasts if they don't play Chalice and bring in only 2 if they do board in Chalice.

How are you supposed to know if they have Chalice?

Ewokslayer
02-01-2007, 03:12 PM
How are you supposed to know if they have Chalice?

Game 3

Even if you are going to lose Game 2 you should try to Brain Freeze your opponent in order to get as much information about their board plan as possible.

Taurelin
02-01-2007, 03:32 PM
Even if you are going to lose Game 2 you should try to Brain Freeze your opponent in order to get as much information about their board plan as possible.

Wow! i just love this thread, and I love to read all those neat little tricks I would never have thought of myself. Thumbs up!

I have one more question about the Sideboard. I am running a fairly standard build with both Meditate and Turnabout in the SB.
Here's what I have so far:

4 Hydroblast
3 Twincast (1 maindeck)
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze

That leaves 4 open slots for bounce spells. The variety of possibilities include
CC1 Chain of Vapor
CC2 Echoing Truth
CC3 Rebuild
CC3 Wipe Away
CC5 Evacuation

I read above that Wipe Away is even considered as a possible 2 of. So which of the other ones am I supposed to substitute?

My Meta is Iserlohn Germany, with the following Top8 in January:
TES, Hannifish, Hannifish (!), CAL, NQGrw, Uw Landstill, ÜberMadness, Faerie Stompy (!). So I find Chalices, Meddling Mages, and True Believers en masse + even Rule of Law.

solidarity!
02-01-2007, 04:15 PM
Don't forget about stroke of genius if you don't have that one your gonna lose against gaea's blessing.

And i think rebuild is a must because decks like faerie stompy and stax builds become more popular.

nitewolf9
02-01-2007, 04:29 PM
Don't forget about stroke of genius if you don't have that one your gonna lose against gaea's blessing.

And i think rebuild is a must because decks like faerie stompy and stax builds become more popular.

OMG the deck itself has posted! And it seems pissed about some people's sideboard choices...don't worry, solidarity, I'll use the right ones...

mnellsae
02-01-2007, 06:40 PM
Don't forget about stroke of genius if you don't have that one your gonna lose against gaea's blessing.

And i think rebuild is a must because decks like faerie stompy and stax builds become more popular.

Would it be worthwhile to have a Stifle or Trickbind to deal with Gaea's Blessing? This could also help against other storm decks, including the Mirror match.

You could put just one in your sideboard and wish for it when you need it.

That seems easier to me than trying to make him draw 49 (turn 4) cards using Stroke of Genius. I used Stroke of Genius with one Twincast today on somebody who had Gaea's Blessing, and I fizzled out at 30 cards. He actually drew a Blessing, but then he had another one in his deck, so I lost when I went for the Brain Freeze, thinking he only had one Blessing which he already discarded. Any suggestions for making him draw the whole deck?

It was like only the 4th time I've played the deck, and I only was able to get 3 lands on the table....and I ran out of draw cards... I wanted to wait longer, but he was beating me pretty hard up to that point. I was scared that if I didn't go off, it'd be game over anyway.

Suggestions welcome.

NANTUKO_SHADY
02-01-2007, 07:20 PM
Would it be worthwhile to have a Stifle or Trickbind to deal with Gaea's Blessing? This could also help against other storm decks, including the Mirror match.

You could put just one in your sideboard and wish for it when you need it.

That seems easier to me than trying to make him draw 49 (turn 4) cards using Stroke of Genius. I used Stroke of Genius with one Twincast today on somebody who had Gaea's Blessing, and I fizzled out at 30 cards. He actually drew a Blessing, but then he had another one in his deck, so I lost when I went for the Brain Freeze, thinking he only had one Blessing which he already discarded. Any suggestions for making him draw the whole deck?

It was like only the 4th time I've played the deck, and I only was able to get 3 lands on the table....and I ran out of draw cards... I wanted to wait longer, but he was beating me pretty hard up to that point. I was scared that if I didn't go off, it'd be game over anyway.

Suggestions welcome.



Ok lets see here. Not running Stroke of Genius would be actual suicide, as it closes out games and is quite versatile as a draw spell. In addition, you say you stroked with a Twincast on it and fizzled at 30 cards? This is because you are trying to Stroke them for their whole deck the second you see a Gaea's Blessing trigger on the stack. The general idea is to respond to Blessing's trigger with another Brainfreeze, and slim their deck down even more before you go in for teh lethal Stroke. In your case, where you were on three lands and pressured early, you may not have had the proper resources to go off efficiently. As you get better with the deck, you will soon learn to plan your plays further down the "going off" road. Some simple math and card analysis will allow you to know whether or not you have enough gas to Stroke out your opponent's library. If possible, Brainfreeze in response to the Blessing trigger, and then see what you can do. Also, I don't suggest running either Stifle or Trickbind in the board. People say it's good in the mirror, but this isn't 100% true. You see, in the epic mirror battle, generally the games go on for a while and each player has a generous amount of lands out. When one person decided to make the first move, a Stifle or a Trickbind on their first Brainfreeze isn't that great at all. Since they have so much land out and have had time to shape their ideal hand, chances are they will just be able to launch another Brainfreeze to your dome. Once a Solidarity player can "go off" with success, not much can stop them at the end. I would much rather have someone Stifle my Brainfreeze at the end of the combo than to mess with my draw/untap spells during the combo.

mnellsae
02-01-2007, 08:28 PM
Ok lets see here. Not running Stroke of Genius would be actual suicide, as it closes out games and is quite versatile as a draw spell. In addition, you say you stroked with a Twincast on it and fizzled at 30 cards? This is because you are trying to Stroke them for their whole deck the second you see a Gaea's Blessing trigger on the stack. The general idea is to respond to Blessing's trigger with another Brainfreeze, and slim their deck down even more before you go in for teh lethal Stroke. In your case, where you were on three lands and pressured early, you may not have had the proper resources to go off efficiently. As you get better with the deck, you will soon learn to plan your plays further down the "going off" road. Some simple math and card analysis will allow you to know whether or not you have enough gas to Stroke out your opponent's library. If possible, Brainfreeze in response to the Blessing trigger, and then see what you can do. Also, I don't suggest running either Stifle or Trickbind in the board. People say it's good in the mirror, but this isn't 100% true. You see, in the epic mirror battle, generally the games go on for a while and each player has a generous amount of lands out. When one person decided to make the first move, a Stifle or a Trickbind on their first Brainfreeze isn't that great at all. Since they have so much land out and have had time to shape their ideal hand, chances are they will just be able to launch another Brainfreeze to your dome. Once a Solidarity player can "go off" with success, not much can stop them at the end. I would much rather have someone Stifle my Brainfreeze at the end of the combo than to mess with my draw/untap spells during the combo.

Thanks a lot for the advice. After my original post, I had read some more of the previous posts in this thread (50 goddamn pages...) and I saw the discussions about how to keep going when the blessing trigger goes on the stack.

I've only started playing Magic again for about a month, before that, my last time to play was like 10 years ago...there was no such thing as a stack. So my question is, if you keep freezing them when the blessing goes on the stack...you can deck them before the blessing ability resolves, and they lose anyway? Right?

Let's say they have 10 cards for the library, you freeze them for 4x (storm count 3) The first 2 storms resolve, revealing a blessing (they should have 4 cards left in library). You can freeze again for 5x (although you only need 2x), and the new freeze plus storm copies on the stack will resolve before blessing, decking them anyway?

Am I thinking about this right?

I just want to say you guys got an amazing thread here, and this deck makes me laugh everytime a new intricacy is pointed out. I love this thing, and I really enjoy the challenge of trying to master it. Back in the day, my favorite deck type was mill, using millstone. This is like instant millstone deck on steroids, hence my draw towards it.

One more thing, the deck list I'm using runs 4 remands main, and 2 twincasts sb. What is the latest consensus for having twincast in the main? Can anybody point me to the most recent, "optimal" deck list?

Deep6er
02-01-2007, 08:39 PM
Thanks a lot for the advice. After my original post, I had read some more of the previous posts in this thread (50 goddamn pages...) and I saw the discussions about how to keep going when the blessing trigger goes on the stack.

I've only started playing Magic again for about a month, before that, my last time to play was like 10 years ago...there was no such thing as a stack. So my question is, if you keep freezing them when the blessing goes on the stack...you can deck them before the blessing ability resolves, and they lose anyway? Right?

Let's say they have 10 cards for the library, you freeze them for 4x (storm count 3) The first 2 storms resolve, revealing a blessing (they should have 4 cards left in library). You can freeze again for 5x (although you only need 2x), and the new freeze plus storm copies on the stack will resolve before blessing, decking them anyway?

Am I thinking about this right?

I just want to say you guys got an amazing thread here, and this deck makes me laugh everytime a new intricacy is pointed out. I love this thing, and I really enjoy the challenge of trying to master it. Back in the day, my favorite deck type was mill, using millstone. This is like instant millstone deck on steroids, hence my draw towards it.

One more thing, the deck list I'm using runs 4 remands main, and 2 twincasts sb. What is the latest consensus for having twincast in the main? Can anybody point me to the most recent, "optimal" deck list?

As long as you make them draw when they have no deck, it works. Also, most recent lists will be based off of mine. You can find mine either a couple of pages back, or on Star City's tournament results section. The only thing that some people don't like is Peek, which they don't have to run. It's mostly accepted that the build is reasonably set and we're waiting for me to do some more innovation and take the deck in a new direction (which I have, and it's amazing). Also, I usually wait until after tournaments/strenuous testing to post the finalized version, so it's going to take awhile. You guys probably won't see the list until after the Running GAGG thing. Of course, you could go, therby ensuring your ability to see it in action.

NANTUKO_SHADY
02-01-2007, 08:40 PM
One more thing, the deck list I'm using runs 4 remands main, and 2 twincasts sb. What is the latest consensus for having twincast in the main?


The conclusion drawn on the Twincast situation is to maindeck 1x Twincast. It is randomly insane to draw, and it's never a dead card, since it can copy any spell in your deck. You should probably maindeck 1x Twincast and sideboard 3x.

Ewokslayer
02-01-2007, 08:48 PM
Thanks a lot for the advice. After my original post, I had read some more of the previous posts in this thread (50 goddamn pages...) and I saw the discussions about how to keep going when the blessing trigger goes on the stack.

I've only started playing Magic again for about a month, before that, my last time to play was like 10 years ago...there was no such thing as a stack. So my question is, if you keep freezing them when the blessing goes on the stack...you can deck them before the blessing ability resolves, and they lose anyway? Right?

Let's say they have 10 cards for the library, you freeze them for 4x (storm count 3) The first 2 storms resolve, revealing a blessing (they should have 4 cards left in library). You can freeze again for 5x (although you only need 2x), and the new freeze plus storm copies on the stack will resolve before blessing, decking them anyway?

Am I thinking about this right?

I just want to say you guys got an amazing thread here, and this deck makes me laugh everytime a new intricacy is pointed out. I love this thing, and I really enjoy the challenge of trying to master it. Back in the day, my favorite deck type was mill, using millstone. This is like instant millstone deck on steroids, hence my draw towards it.

One more thing, the deck list I'm using runs 4 remands main, and 2 twincasts sb. What is the latest consensus for having twincast in the main? Can anybody point me to the most recent, "optimal" deck list?

You are correct in the way the stack works with blessing.
If you Brain Freeze them and hit a Blessing, its triggered ability will go on the stack. You can then respond to the ability with additional spells including another Brain Freeze. The Blessing will continue to be on the stack until both you and your opponent let it resolve. If before then your opponents library is empty and he has to draw a card he will lose the game when State Based Effects are checked (this happens when ever a player would receive priority, which is pretty much whenever anything happens) You must make them draw a card in order to kill them if there is a Blessing trigger on the stack otherwise it will eventually resolve and they will shuffle their graveyard into their library.
As for Remand and Twincast,
Remand is very useful in getting around Blessing. Once a Brain Freeze hits a blessing you can respond to the trigger by Remanding the original Brain Freeze and recasting it on top of the Blessing Trigger.
Twincast is useful in the main but not required. It is very strong against control and the mirror.

mnellsae
02-01-2007, 08:52 PM
Ok, from what I read, you are correct in the order of resolving. When a Gaea's Blessing is revealed from your opponent's library, the trigger goes on the stack, and since that trigger was the most recent thing added to the stack, it will resolve before the rest of your storm copies from the original Brainfreeze do. Therefore, you can cast another Brainfreeze, in which those new storm copies will resolve before the Blessing trigger. After the second Brainfreeze has been casted, they should have 0 cards in their library, in which case all you have to do is force them to draw a card via Stroke of Genius. Be careful here, because if you forget to force them to draw a card once they have no library, the Gaea's Blessing trigger will then resolve and shuffle their graveyard back into their library. Be sure to finish them off with a Stroke of Genius, because Brainfreeze alone can't beat Blessing.

ooooohhhh. You pointing out that a last forced draw requirement is like a light bulb going off in my head. Awesome. I was thinking that the state-based-effects (or whatever) would see the empty library and automatically just force the loss. I guess the SBEs only work if the library is empty and they try to draw a card....I would have totally screwed myself on that tidbit!



The conclusion drawn on the Twincast situation is to maindeck 1x Twincast. It is randomly insane to draw, and it's never a dead card, since it can copy any spell in your deck. You should probably maindeck 1x Twincast and sideboard 3x.

Here is my decklist:

12 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Force of Will
4 Remand
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
3 Brain Freeze
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight

Sideboard:
4 Hydroblast
3 Disrupt
2 Twincast
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Stroke of Genius

You think I should:
+1MD Twincast
+1SB Twincast

What do you suggest taking out? Thanks again for all your help!

NANTUKO_SHADY
02-01-2007, 09:42 PM
Here is my decklist:

12 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Force of Will
4 Remand
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
3 Brain Freeze
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight

Sideboard:
4 Hydroblast
3 Disrupt
2 Twincast
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Stroke of Genius

You think I should:
+1MD Twincast
+1SB Twincast

What do you suggest taking out? Thanks again for all your help!


You should cut 1x maindeck Brainfreeze and replace it with 1x Twincast in my opinion. Also, through testing, myself and others have come to the conclusion that Disrupt isn't necessary in the board anymore. First off, most black X decks like Deadguy and such won't make it far in the tournament. So if you can win your first two or so, you shouldn't have to worry about them down the road. Also, the most important thing in terms of beating black decks isn't more so resolving Disrupt, but the key is resolving a Meditate. Meditate is retarded against discard/sui decks. If a Meditate resolves, your opponent should run out of gas and you should go on to win with card advantage and utility. My current sideboard looks like


1x Stroke of Genius
4x Hydroblast
2x Brainfreeze
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Echoing Truth
1x Rebuild <--- you want this in your board. It's your out against Stax and other decks that try to lock you down with Chalice of the Void on 1 and 2.
1x Meditate
1x Turnabout
3x Twincast

mnellsae
02-01-2007, 09:55 PM
Also, most recent lists will be based off of mine. You can find mine either a couple of pages back, or on Star City's tournament results section. The only thing that some people don't like is Peek, which they don't have to run.

I see a Solidarity deck on Star City's site by David Gearhart, is that you?


...we're waiting for me to do some more innovation and take the deck in a new direction (which I have, and it's amazing).

I'm really looking forward to this!

To the rest of you, thanks again for such an amazing, informative thread!

Taurelin
02-02-2007, 12:59 AM
Don't forget about stroke of genius if you don't have that one your gonna lose against gaea's blessing.


OMG. Me stupid. Of course, I have Stroke in. I just forgot to type it. But then the bounce arsenal becomes even smaller:

4 Hydroblast
3 Twincast (1 maindeck)
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
2 Brain Freeze

That leaves 3 open slots for bounce spells. The variety of possibilities include
CC1 Chain of Vapor
CC2 Echoing Truth
CC3 Rebuild
CC3 Wipe Away
CC5 Evacuation

If you say that Rebuild is a must, what do you think about the following:
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Wipe Away

As far as usability is concerned, I consider Chain of Vapor to be the weakest, since it simply bounces one permanent and is most likely affected by Chalice. Echoing Truth can get rid of multiple Meddling Mages, and Wipe Away is strong through its split second ability, so the opponent can't tap Mother of Runes, for example. Evacuation then is no longer necessary, and expensive btw.

What do you think? Or am I supposed to cut one Brain Freeze/Hydroblast/Twincast to make more space?

Reagens
02-02-2007, 03:07 AM
I have had countless games that I needed a chain of vapor because I am very tight on mana to bounce something. I really think you should leave it in.
I assume if standard goblin builds in your meta have chalice of the void in there sideboard it would be more then feasible to substitute 2 hydroblasts for 2 wipe away.
Thank you for the teaser David, i'm sure we are all looking forward to your new ideas.

Eldariel
02-02-2007, 05:44 AM
So, why don't we just play Chain of Vapor on the SB over Hydroblast? The only card Hydroblast would deal with that Chain doesn't is Red Elemental Blast, but you can play around those and they're on the decline anyways. It bounces Lackey before damage which is essentially the same as dealing with it. It bounces Pyrostatic Pillar when you need to go off for the low price of 2 life (if they're gonna kill you, it'll be by much more than 2 life), and it bounces Warbeef on a critical turn. It also deals with weird stuff like Chalice at 2 and company. Simply, wouldn't the SB be just plain better if you just took Hydroblast out and tossed Chain of Vapor in?

GreenOne
02-02-2007, 08:51 AM
So, why don't we just play Chain of Vapor on the SB over Hydroblast?

I was thinking about this too, and gonna test it when I have time.
I just feel sad that a combo deck is running a 4x side slot that works almost only against a aggro deck.
However, CoV can't bounce things like scirocco, boil, REB/Pyroblast and threats from non-gobbos decks like Burn, Burning Wish... so results are probably depending on what your opponent is siding in.
Gonna test, though.



What do you think? Or am I supposed to cut one Brain Freeze/Hydroblast/Twincast to make more space?

I cut 1 Brain Freeze, 1 E. Truth for +2 Wipe Away and it's working well.
Sometimes, when meta requires it, I do -1 Hydroblast +1 E. Truth/Rebuild

Wipe away is overall great. I tested it a lot and find it's better than E.Truth:
The mana cost is not a problem cause if you want some cheap bounce you're def. chosing chain of vapor. Multiple threats with the same name is something that rarely happens and that you can try to prevent. "Unrespondability" is great because of counters (don't forget that our main problem is Fish/Gro/Thresh) and nifty tricks with MoR+MM by your opponent.

solidarity!
02-03-2007, 03:32 AM
OMG. Me stupid. Of course, I have Stroke in. I just forgot to type it. But then the bounce arsenal becomes even smaller:

4 Hydroblast
3 Twincast (1 maindeck)
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
2 Brain Freeze

That leaves 3 open slots for bounce spells. The variety of possibilities include
CC1 Chain of Vapor
CC2 Echoing Truth
CC3 Rebuild
CC3 Wipe Away
CC5 Evacuation

If you say that Rebuild is a must, what do you think about the following:
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Wipe Away

As far as usability is concerned, I consider Chain of Vapor to be the weakest, since it simply bounces one permanent and is most likely affected by Chalice. Echoing Truth can get rid of multiple Meddling Mages, and Wipe Away is strong through its split second ability, so the opponent can't tap Mother of Runes, for example. Evacuation then is no longer necessary, and expensive btw.

What do you think? Or am I supposed to cut one Brain Freeze/Hydroblast/Twincast to make more space?



I think that echoing truth deserves his place in this deck because sometmies opponents have double meddling mage or double pyrostatic pillar double true believer(happened to me once)

And chain of vapor is really good too you have 4 land you wish and you can use the bounce right away!

So for chain of vapor is in it because of the low mana cost and sometimes you are very tight on mana and you don't got another turn to wait.



So, why don't we just play Chain of Vapor on the SB over Hydroblast?

Because against goblins it kill first turn lackey and they lose speed and youll mostly win and it can counter a piledriver and chain of vapor cannot bounce it piledriver has protection from blue and he plays warchief then you let it resolve he has got priority and he play like a piledriver for one because he gots one mana left then you you got priority while piledriver is onto the stack and then you can react with chain of vapor and hydroblast was soo better in this situation and and of course for other hate cards like pyrostatic pillar you can counter it instead of taking 2 damage and if you cannot bounce chalice just play high tide then twincast it the twincast puts the high tide directly on the stack and not plays it so then the high tide is not countered by clalice of the void on 1.

NANTUKO_SHADY
02-03-2007, 07:09 AM
OMG. Me stupid. Of course, I have Stroke in. I just forgot to type it. But then the bounce arsenal becomes even smaller:

4 Hydroblast
3 Twincast (1 maindeck)
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
2 Brain Freeze

That leaves 3 open slots for bounce spells. The variety of possibilities include
CC1 Chain of Vapor
CC2 Echoing Truth
CC3 Rebuild
CC3 Wipe Away
CC5 Evacuation

If you say that Rebuild is a must, what do you think about the following:
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Wipe Away

As far as usability is concerned, I consider Chain of Vapor to be the weakest, since it simply bounces one permanent and is most likely affected by Chalice. Echoing Truth can get rid of multiple Meddling Mages, and Wipe Away is strong through its split second ability, so the opponent can't tap Mother of Runes, for example. Evacuation then is no longer necessary, and expensive btw.

What do you think? Or am I supposed to cut one Brain Freeze/Hydroblast/Twincast to make more space?



I think that echoing truth deserves his place in this deck because sometmies opponents have double meddling mage or double pyrostatic pillar double true believer(happened to me once)

And chain of vapor is really good too you have 4 land you wish and you can use the bounce right away!

So for chain of vapor is in it because of the low mana cost and sometimes you are very tight on mana and you don't got another turn to wait.



So, why don't we just play Chain of Vapor on the SB over Hydroblast?



So the debate right now is pretty much Wipe Away over Chain of Vapor? I can see Wipe Away's glorifications on bouncing Meddling Mage without hesitation, but I still like Chain of Vapor. Although I rarely use it, I did try a tournament without it, and my opponents were casting CoTV for two first, instead of one. Yes Rebuild is still an option, but I feel more secure having a 1cc, 2cc, and 3cc, bounce spell in my board all together. To be fair though, I haven't tried Wipe Away, and I may include it for the Geneseo tournament in two weeks. W'ell see.

Tacosnape
02-03-2007, 12:18 PM
The problem with exploiting Wipe Away's split secondness is that smart Threshold players are just going to adjust their strategy to counter the Cunning Wish if Meddling Mage is on the table.

blitz
02-03-2007, 01:11 PM
The problem with exploiting Wipe Away's split secondness is that smart Threshold players are just going to adjust their strategy to counter the Cunning Wish if Meddling Mage is on the table.

If they aren't countering your wish, they are countering your bounce, which is even worse than just getting the wish countered. The fact that it's forcing the thresh player to counter your wish is good, not bad. Yes, it'd be nice if they didn't see it coming, but the threat alone is enough for inclusion, me thinks.

GreenOne
02-03-2007, 02:13 PM
The problem with exploiting Wipe Away's split secondness is that smart Threshold players are just going to adjust their strategy to counter the Cunning Wish if Meddling Mage is on the table.

I usually side in both copies of Wipe Away G2-3 cause they will still counter the wish to bounce.

Tacosnape
02-03-2007, 03:09 PM
If they aren't countering your wish, they are countering your bounce, which is even worse than just getting the wish countered. The fact that it's forcing the thresh player to counter your wish is good, not bad. Yes, it'd be nice if they didn't see it coming, but the threat alone is enough for inclusion, me thinks.


I usually side in both copies of Wipe Away G2-3 cause they will still counter the wish to bounce.

I see your points. The actual presence of Wipe Away in the sideboard, or rather even the knowledge that some Solidarity decks run it and it -could- be present, would indeed let you use Cunning Wish to bait counters.

barron
02-04-2007, 03:02 AM
So I am new to this forum and was looking for another place to post this since, even though I believe it is on topic, I didn't not want to detract from the current discussion. If a moderator or more seasoned poster thinks this should be a seperate thread please make it one.

So, I am curious as to what everyone sees as the role of solidarity in the current/future meta of legacy. Solidarity is at a disadvantage against the other top tier deck, threshold, and certainly doesn't have a guaranteed win against goblins. The other decks that are in development seem to be appearing are heavy on black disruption (i.e. discard) and those decks appear to be proliferating, red death, hanni fish, pikula, etc... These decks are not friendly to solidarity to say the least. Also, I know people say this deck has an advantage over iggy-pop, but on the draw solidarity can be at a real disadvantage, especially if they start out with a leyline. The *only* reservation I have about the deck is it's clock. With iggy-pop decks other decks are having to deal with a full turn earlier *critical turn* since igg is a faster combo, and decks like Red Death (more-so than B/W builds) can tear apart your hand and take you to 0 before you can effectively recover and combo off turn 3/4 (at earliest). Also, unlike igg solidarity can't topdeck a win with no cards in hand.


Now what I love about the deck is it's resilience. Even though this deck doesn't always have a clear advantage it is always a deck that can be piloted to success. For example, even though threshold is an unfavorable matchup I have yet to lose to it in a tournament. But against decks like red death the disruption could be extremely overwhelming, especially when on the draw.

So, in the scheme of ohio, do you all think that playing this deck over another combo like igg advantageous? Igg has been dominating the presence of combo decks in top 8s lately.

I believe Igg is advantageous because it has a faster clock, which makes it's match against goblins almost a bye-round even if they pull out that first turn lacky on the play. Another reason is that IGG is so flexible in it's build that you could always surprise your opponent after SB.

I feel that solidarity *may* be advantageous because it seems a lot of people are forgetting about it and primarily focusing on IGG (i.e. goblins new SB use chalice and pillar rather than blasts), making solidarity a little stronger post SB. Also, solidarity doesn't have as hard of a time dealing with chalice and doesn't fold to null rod (I think it's going to make a presence, you?)

So in short....how do you all see solidarity in legacy, and legacy's future?

Tacosnape
02-04-2007, 01:26 PM
As you said, Solidarity's strength is its versatility. It, moreso than any other deck, has a success rate that depends solely on the skill of its pilot. You can lose an entire match because you played the wrong cantrip, pitched the wrong card to Force of Will, or incorrectly read your opponent. The deck is, however, frighteningly consistent and deadly in the right hands.

Iggy Pop is a great deck, I don't think anyone will dispute. It is, however, less resilient and less consistent in the face of hate cards and disruption than Solidarity.

Take Meddling Mage. Meddling Mage on Tendrils of Agony forces Iggy Pop to find a bounce spell to remove it. Solidarity can not only find a bounce spell, it can also counter the mage, and it can always go off around a Mage, no matter what it names. If the mage names High Tide, a couple more land will be needed. If it names Brain Freeze, Cunning Wish will need to be employed midway through to either bounce the mage or grab an enormous Stroke of Genius. Mage does make it a little more difficult, but not impossible.

Force of Will is another example. Iggy Pop must use Leyline of the Void, Xantid Swarm, or Defense Grid to proactively stop a Force from interrupting the combo. Solidarity can either just counter the force, Twincast the spell it targets, Remand the original spell, or just let the Force resolve and go off with the other cards in its hand.

Iggy Pop is also susceptible to a lot more broad-spectrum hate cards, as well as random jank that shows up on occasion. Tormod's Crypt, for example, gives it problems, where the worst it can do against Solidarity is get rid of Flash of Insight if Solidarity's tapped out.

In its defense, Iggy Pop is better equipped to defend against Chalice of the Void and Pyrostatic Pillar than is Solidarity. It can early Tendrils to handle Pyrostatic Pillar, and it can sometimes just go off around Chalice, which is tougher for Solidarity to do. As both of these happen to be what most Goblin Decks are running, it's not surprising Iggy Pop has a stronger Goblin matchup right now. However, it should be noted that Solidarity still has an auto-out against most hate cards in Force of Will.

Solidarity, like most decks, will falter when it is being over-hated, and rise when it is underhated. It's too versatile of a deck to ever die off completely. It's survived every card that seemed threatening to it at first, be it Gaea's Blessing, Trickbind, Angel's Grace, and so on.

Deep6er
02-04-2007, 01:26 PM
So I am new to this forum and was looking for another place to post this since, even though I believe it is on topic, I didn't not want to detract from the current discussion. If a moderator or more seasoned poster thinks this should be a seperate thread please make it one.

So, I am curious as to what everyone sees as the role of solidarity in the current/future meta of legacy. Solidarity is at a disadvantage against the other top tier deck, threshold, and certainly doesn't have a guaranteed win against goblins. The other decks that are in development seem to be appearing are heavy on black disruption (i.e. discard) and those decks appear to be proliferating, red death, hanni fish, pikula, etc... These decks are not friendly to solidarity to say the least. Also, I know people say this deck has an advantage over iggy-pop, but on the draw solidarity can be at a real disadvantage, especially if they start out with a leyline. The *only* reservation I have about the deck is it's clock. With iggy-pop decks other decks are having to deal with a full turn earlier *critical turn* since igg is a faster combo, and decks like Red Death (more-so than B/W builds) can tear apart your hand and take you to 0 before you can effectively recover and combo off turn 3/4 (at earliest). Also, unlike igg solidarity can't topdeck a win with no cards in hand.


Now what I love about the deck is it's resilience. Even though this deck doesn't always have a clear advantage it is always a deck that can be piloted to success. For example, even though threshold is an unfavorable matchup I have yet to lose to it in a tournament. But against decks like red death the disruption could be extremely overwhelming, especially when on the draw.

So, in the scheme of ohio, do you all think that playing this deck over another combo like igg advantageous? Igg has been dominating the presence of combo decks in top 8s lately.

I believe Igg is advantageous because it has a faster clock, which makes it's match against goblins almost a bye-round even if they pull out that first turn lacky on the play. Another reason is that IGG is so flexible in it's build that you could always surprise your opponent after SB.

I feel that solidarity *may* be advantageous because it seems a lot of people are forgetting about it and primarily focusing on IGG (i.e. goblins new SB use chalice and pillar rather than blasts), making solidarity a little stronger post SB. Also, solidarity doesn't have as hard of a time dealing with chalice and doesn't fold to null rod (I think it's going to make a presence, you?)

So in short....how do you all see solidarity in legacy, and legacy's future?

Couple of things here. One, I believe you're overemphasizing Iggy Pop's Top8's. I know that Bomholt won the first Meandeck Open with it, but I haven't really seen it pop up anywhere else.
Two, the Goblins board of Pillar + Chalice is ONLY good against Solidarity because Pillar sucks against Tendrils of Agony (storm 4, gain 10, now you can only play four spells?).

Three, even though it seems like other forums are full of black disruption decks, that isn't what's happening at tournaments. Also, Deadguy sucks. Hannifish isn't terribly impressive either, and Red Death has it's own consistency and matchup issues to face. These decks all have exploitable weaknesses to Goblins and other random Aggro decks. Solidarity is NEVER played in the numbers needed to make those good metagame calls. Since most tournaments have been about 40% Tier one and the rest Random, that makes metagame decks a weak choice. You want to play a deck that is able to stand on its own against most random strategies, but also be consistent and strong when trying to play any of the known matchups.

Also, just on another note, Iggy Pop can only topdeck the win if it still had time to play out its mana accellerators. Iggy Pop also has to play around Tormod's Crypt (and Extirpate soon) while Solidarity is only minimally (if at all) affected by crypt. Also, how do you figure leyline beating Solidarity? Yes, it makes IGG a must counter, but I have 4 force and 4 Remand. Without leyline, I can hijack your IGG and combo out on top of you, and God forbid I have Twincast! If I have Twincast, Tide, Reset in my hand with an IGG on the stack, that's infinite mana. Then, ANY SINGLE DRAW SPELL is my entire deck. Seriously, I think your fears may be a tad exaggerated, and not terribly on the mark. If I've missed something feel free to tell me, but it does seem to me that you're analyzing this from a completely different viewpoint that may not have all of the relevant data.

AnwarA101
02-04-2007, 02:54 PM
So, I am curious as to what everyone sees as the role of solidarity in the current/future meta of legacy. Solidarity is at a disadvantage against the other top tier deck, threshold, and certainly doesn't have a guaranteed win against goblins. The other decks that are in development seem to be appearing are heavy on black disruption (i.e. discard) and those decks appear to be proliferating, red death, hanni fish, pikula, etc... These decks are not friendly to solidarity to say the least. Also, I know people say this deck has an advantage over iggy-pop, but on the draw solidarity can be at a real disadvantage, especially if they start out with a leyline. The *only* reservation I have about the deck is it's clock. With iggy-pop decks other decks are having to deal with a full turn earlier *critical turn* since igg is a faster combo, and decks like Red Death (more-so than B/W builds) can tear apart your hand and take you to 0 before you can effectively recover and combo off turn 3/4 (at earliest). Also, unlike igg solidarity can't topdeck a win with no cards in hand.



As a proponent of black-based disruption decks (specifically Red Death), I feel like I can offer you some insight into this matchup. While I firmly believe that something like Red Death is favored against Solidarity it isn't overwhelmingly so. It may seem that the combination of fast efficient creatures and disruption spells should spell doom for the Solidarity almost everytime, but that isn't always the case.

Solidarity can play Remand which can be anywhere from annoying to devastating as 1 turn in that matchup can mean that Solidarity can just go off the following turn. Multiple Remands are almost game over from a Red Death player's perspective. Its also true that a deck with no manipulation like Red Death may just not draw enough of either disruption or creatures to beat the Solidarity player before he can recover from the initial assault. Just creatures is not enough to race Solidarity so you really need the combination of disruption plus creatures to have a chance. In the games where neither of these situations occur Red Death usually wins.

In conclusion, while Solidarity is at significant disadvantage to black-based disruption it is by no means an autoloss. It is also true that these decks are either not played in large numbers or simply haven't had the success that other decks have had. There maybe reasons not to play Solidarity in a given tournament, but black decks are probably not one of them.

barron
02-04-2007, 03:39 PM
You all make some good points and I would like to add that this is my favorite deck because it is so dependent on the piloting skill.

I did assume that the proliferation of black decks around here, along with the discussion on the boards, was indicative of a national trend. I also didn’t know typical tier one has only been 40%, good information :)

My mentioning iggy-pop had more to do with with it’s faster clock and it’s matchups against the tier ones more than anything else. Against gobins it has an advantage over solidarity since it can easily outrace goblins, even on the draw, and can mulligan down to 5 and still easily get that first or second turn win. Iggs matchup against threshold is a lot harder than the matchup against goblins, but it is certainly winnable.

What I was getting at with it’s matchup against solidarity is that, when I am on the play (with solidarity) my hair stands on end, but I know with the remands and FOWs I can stall for the win, but when I am on the draw that is a different story. You can only remand their Igg after their turn 2 and if they didn’t try it before that then they either didn’t mulligan correctly, or made a play mistake, and I like the infinite loop (Great tech, kudos), but on the draw you could only do that loop (with the mana to draw) after their third turn, and if they haven’t combod off by then, they really messed up. I did find a way to do the loop with only 2 islands and have FOW protection to stop their Igg from resolving, but that requires 1 high tide, 1 reset, 1 twincast, and 1 brainfreeze, which is a very unlikely hand for this deck and even though the post-board could make this hand more likely at the same time they are going to be boarding in swarms, grids, or chants, making the match-up even harder.

So even though I am moderately comfortable playing against a competent igg player on the play. I think solidarity is at a sever disadvantage on when on the draw.

So my essential point is that, as I see it, Igg has a better match-up against goblins, a fair match-up against threshold (like our match with threshold I see it coming down to piloting and experience) and a solid match-up against solidarity, especially when on the draw.

Other:
Tacosnape: I fully agree with you that Igg is less resilient to hate, that was one of the points which I was trying to touch on, but I would say every deck is less resilient to hate than solidarity, with goblins being second. But, it being less resilient is far from saying Igg is impotent when dealing with hate. The deck is very resilient, so long as the pilot knows which hate to look out for.
Also Tormod’s crypt is a hate card that I can easily ignore when I play Igg. I think it is the worst hate card against the deck since igg can easily sculpt hands with all it’s tutors play round it and still use igg. (but lets not forget the double tendrils plan). What hurts the deck the most are chalices and null rods (possibly extirpate, but I haven’t play tested it yet).

Deep6er: Chalice and pillar is only good against solidarity. I will agree with you there, as I hope most would. But the players around here switched to the 4 chalice and 2 pillar to have a SB that could address bother solidarity and igg. That was my point. I didn’t meant o imply that they also boarded in the pillars against igg; they certainly shouldn’t. But a chalice for zero can be a real handicap for igg. You are also right about Igg-pop needing the time to play their artifacts in order for them to top-deck a win, but I have seen that happen more than I can count. I have even seem them top-deck a win with no hand and no land, not saying that’s common, but it’s not something that should be ignored, either.

So as a separate question. What are all of your SB strategies against Igg? I have been thinking of ways to keep in the most amounts of remands possible, while adding in the twincasts, but I have been focusing more on the plans against thresh and grow and how to adjust the SB accordingly.

Eldariel
02-04-2007, 04:37 PM
Couple of things here. One, I believe you're overemphasizing Iggy Pop's Top8's. I know that Bomholt won the first Meandeck Open with it, but I haven't really seen it pop up anywhere else.
Two, the Goblins board of Pillar + Chalice is ONLY good against Solidarity because Pillar sucks against Tendrils of Agony (storm 4, gain 10, now you can only play four spells?).

While this isn't really the place to discuss it, I'll still have to point out that this isn't entirely true; Goblins aren't a goldfish, and combined with other disruption, IGGy can't go off very early, so Gobs have time to dish out some serious damage, which eventually makes Pillar very relevant (when they're around 10 life, they can't really go off with it in play anymore without a highly engineered hand).

URABAHN
02-04-2007, 04:46 PM
While this isn't really the place to discuss it, I'll still have to point out that this isn't entirely true; Goblins aren't a goldfish, and combined with other disruption, IGGy can't go off very early, so Gobs have time to dish out some serious damage, which eventually makes Pillar very relevant (when they're around 10 life, they can't really go off with it in play anymore without a highly engineered hand).

I'm not sure I follow you, are you talking about Goblins v. IGGy Pop and the virtues of Pyrostatic Pillar in the Goblin sideboard? Or, are you talking about the virtues of Pyrostatic Pillar in the Goblin sideboard for Solidarity?

herbig
02-04-2007, 05:06 PM
I feel that solidarity *may* be advantageous because it seems a lot of people are forgetting about it and primarily focusing on IGG (i.e. goblins new SB use chalice and pillar rather than blasts), making solidarity a little stronger post SB.


Deep6er: Chalice and pillar is only good against solidarity. I will agree with you there, as I hope most would.

Thats a quick turnaround. I think the key to the goblins board is that Chalice doesn't get hosed by Blast. Pillar is solid for both matchups, but it is Solidarity that can destroy it with a card it is boarding in for you anyways. This poses a serious problem for Solidarity, since you have to have a way to deal with Lackey, but you also have to have a way to deal with Chalice. Before, when you needed to deal with either Lackey or Pillar coming down, Goblins was much less of a threat.

barron
02-04-2007, 05:57 PM
Chalice can be damaging to solidarity, but I would go so far as to say I prefer it to the REB sb. Cards like chalice and pillar allow you to gain tempo with remands, which is really what makes or breaks this match. From my experience the experienced goblin players would just play a first turn lackey or vial then just use their lands to deny me mana (i.e. ports). I found that a lot more problematic. But remanding a turn two chalice against goblins can usually, but not always, allow for one more turn before you have to combo off.

Tacosnape
02-05-2007, 02:00 AM
Chalice can be damaging to solidarity, but I would go so far as to say I prefer it to the REB sb. Cards like chalice and pillar allow you to gain tempo with remands, which is really what makes or breaks this match. From my experience the experienced goblin players would just play a first turn lackey or vial then just use their lands to deny me mana (i.e. ports). I found that a lot more problematic. But remanding a turn two chalice against goblins can usually, but not always, allow for one more turn before you have to combo off.

Solidarity masters, keep me in check if I err here.

Point #1: You can't Remand a turn two Chalice/Pillar when your goblin opponent is on the play, and more often than not on game 2 they will be. You'll only have one land. Plus, as mentioned in Point #4, this is still an unlikely scenario when you're on the draw, as Remand often gets boarded out.

Point #2: Red Elemental Blast is far more harmless to Solidarity than Chalice is. Chalice for 1 shuts down 12-16 cards in the deck, depending on how many Hydroblasts were boarded in. REB can be Forced, Hydroblasted, or the spell it's targeting can be Remanded. A resolved Chalice combined with a decent goblin clock is usually how it beats Solidarity. Hydroblast can pick off a Pillar/REB board. Chalice is a huge tempo boost for Goblins, as both going off around it and trying to bounce it often slow down Solidarity by just long enough for Goblins to go lethal.

Point #3: This might be off thread, but I'll try to tie it into Solidarity. REB/Pyroblast is garbage in Goblins anyway. Keeping mana open in Goblins against non-aggro blue decks (Read as Faerie Stompy, and Pyroblast'll just get Chaliced in that match) is a stupid strategy. Goblins can't afford to sit around and wait for a blue control deck to stabilize, just as it can't afford to sit around and wait for a blue control deck to stabilize. To beat Solidarity, Goblins wants to put pressure and disruption on as fast as possible. This means not leaving your mana idle. Attempting to Red Elemental Blast the Brainstorms and other Cantrips is a better strategy, but still flawed is it isn't giving Solidarity anything it can't deal with.

Point #4: Stopping Lackey is what makes or breaks this match. Solidarity will usually buy enough time to go off game one if Goblins misses its Lackey draw or if it can Force the Lackey. Postboard, if a Lackey's coming in unchecked, Solidarity won't often have sufficient time to stop the Pillar/Chalice hate while sculpting its hand to go off. Most Solidarity players, I think, board out Remands for Hydroblasts in some number against Goblins anyway. Therefore the scenario of Remanding Pillars and Chalices will rarely happen.

Ewokslayer
02-05-2007, 09:55 AM
Point #1
Why would you board out Remand on the draw when it is at its best?

Point #2
Generally Correct.

Point #3
Generally Correct

Point #4
You are overly simplifying the matchup. Solidarity can loss many games against Goblins where Lackey isn't every draw and it can race many 1st turn Lackey draws.

Again, Remand is one of the strongest tools for Solidarity to use against Goblins. Additionally, even though Gobins brings in a large amount of hate it has no way to manipulate its draw in order to see it, where as you can often Brainstorm/Opt or Impluse into the Force/Remand/Blast/Bounce.
Without that sort of manipulation the Goblin player will often be forced into a mulligan of a perfectly decent hand under normal circumstances. This will generally slow their clock for you to get around their hate and could completely screw them over.

Bane of the Living
02-05-2007, 05:29 PM
Couple of things here. One, I believe you're overemphasizing Iggy Pop's Top8's. I know that Bomholt won the first Meandeck Open with it, but I haven't really seen it pop up anywhere else.


2006 Legacy Championship
Indianapolis, Indiana
August 11, 2006
Coverage (including Top 8 decklists)

Top 8:
1. UG Madness
2. Salvagers-Gamekeeper
3. Vial Goblins with green splash
4. UWBG Landstill
5. Iggy Pop
6. Iggy Pop
7. Truffle Shuffle
8. UGRW Threshold

StarCityGames Duel for Duals IV
Roanoke, Virginia
October 8, 2006 Day 2
All decklists

Top 8:
1. Vial Goblins
2. Vial Goblins with white splash
3. Affinity
4. Iggy Pop
5. Miracle Gro
6. 43 Land
7. Vial Goblins with white splash
8. RGBSA

Aside from the 3 Iggy spots Im seeing a lack of Solidarity here. It might be a very valid arguement that Solidarity's success is still dependant on not making play mistakes. A bad reason to play a deck all day at a GP if you ask me. I mean, look how terribly beatable all the decks in that top eight are for Solidarity, yet its no where amoungst them.

If you check our Historical Top 8 reference page, you'll notice in Germany &#220;bermadness won three times as many top 8 spots than Solidarity in 06 and 07. Im not bragging, but does this just mean people in Germany cant find Resets? Solidarity is discouraging for many players, decks like Iggy aren't. This is what differentiates Iggy and Solidarity the most if you ask me.



Without leyline, I can hijack your IGG and combo out on top of you, and God forbid I have Twincast! If I have Twincast, Tide, Reset in my hand with an IGG on the stack, that's infinite mana. Then, ANY SINGLE DRAW SPELL is my entire deck. Seriously, I think your fears may be a tad exaggerated, and not terribly on the mark. If I've missed something feel free to tell me, but it does seem to me that you're analyzing this from a completely different viewpoint that may not have all of the relevant data.

No one with half a brain would cast Ill Gotten Gains against Solidarity with no protection. Have you ever even played against a reliable opponent?

A) They have Leyline out, you dont counter IGG and lose. They can mind twist you turn 2 and if its on the play you better have the FoW. This is quite a power play against you.

B) They play Defense Grid. We already know how this card hampers your ability to play counter magic, let alone go off with your own combo.

C) They have Xantid Swarm. Another card you NEED the FoW for. If this card is out your in a pretty bad situation because you'll need to combo off regardless to theyre hand and ability to combo. Just out of fear that they will. Thats huge.

D) They have Orims Chant. This ones a pain in the ass because they can easily Mystic Tutor for it! Chant you, it resolves, they win. Or chant you, you waste your counterspell, and they play IGG. Theres always the possibility of crushing you mid combo with Chant as well.

E) Brainfreeze. Ive seen people trying this against Solidarity with a bit of success. Again its a Mystic Tutor target, and can actually kill you in response to your own Brainstorm. Evil.

F) Force of Will. Some builds are squeezing these in, which means relying on yours to counter IGG isnt sure fire.

Have you tested against each of these combatives? IGG is a pretty extensive deck that I have the overwhelming notion you underestimate.

SpatulaOfTheAges
02-05-2007, 06:19 PM
If you check our Historical Top 8 reference page, you'll notice in Germany &#220;bermadness won three times as many top 8 spots than Solidarity in 06 and 07. Im not bragging, but does this just mean people in Germany cant find Resets? Solidarity is discouraging for many players, decks like Iggy aren't. This is what differentiates Iggy and Solidarity the most if you ask me.

You can't cite German tournaments without concluding that Landstill is tier 1. This isn't meant as a slight to Germany, but comparing vastly different meta-games is useless.

Actually, it DOES mean people in Germany can't find Resets. That's why all over Europe, you see the success of Landstill, Burn, Aluren, Ghostway, and Life from the Loam decks, in what tournament reports are actually being posted(kudos to the Germans, btw, for regularly supplying their t8s).


Aside from the 3 Iggy spots Im seeing a lack of Solidarity here. It might be a very valid arguement that Solidarity's success is still dependant on not making play mistakes. A bad reason to play a deck all day at a GP if you ask me. I mean, look how terribly beatable all the decks in that top eight are for Solidarity, yet its no where amoungst them.

At the Day 1 Roanoke;

1.Goblins
2.UGW Thresh
3.UGW Thresh
4.Solidarity
5.MUC
6.BW Confidant
7.Goblins
8.UBWG Landstill
9.Goblins
10.BR Sui
11.Solidarity
12.Solidarity
13.UGW Thresh
14.Goblins
15.Solidarity
16.Goblins

Siting one or two random tournaments and trying to draw larger conclusions from those tournaments is not credible. Thus far, Iggy Pop's success has been marginal, signifigantly less than that of Solidarity. It's not truly possible to gauge whether one is superior to the other with the limited information we have, and given that Iggy is still somewhat new on the larger tournament scene. A deck's absence or presence in an isolated t8 is not a good criteria for judging a deck's overall strength in the format or the meta-game. This is the same ill-founded logic that led Meandeck to declare Landstill would never t8 again, and Orlove Reanimator was the new hotness, after a single 40 man tournament.

mnellsae
02-05-2007, 06:56 PM
...They can mind twist you turn 2 and if its on the play you better have the FoW...

Mind Twist is banned in Legacy, right, or is this slang for something else?

Ewokslayer
02-05-2007, 07:03 PM
No one with half a brain would cast Ill Gotten Gains against Solidarity with no protection. Have you ever even played against a reliable opponent?

And Gearhart was pointing out why Iggy Pop can't cast IGG without protection. Something that Iggy Pop generally doesn't have to worry about against other decks. This puts a strain on Iggy Pop and slows it down.



A) They have Leyline out, you dont counter IGG and lose. They can mind twist you turn 2 and if its on the play you better have the FoW. This is quite a power play against you.
That is a strong play but not necessarily game as Iggy Pop usually has to sacrifice a signifant amount of resources just to resolve an early IGG against Solidarity.


B) They play Defense Grid. We already know how this card hampers your ability to play counter magic, let alone go off with your own combo.

C) They have Xantid Swarm. Another card you NEED the FoW for. If this card is out your in a pretty bad situation because you'll need to combo off regardless to theyre hand and ability to combo. Just out of fear that they will. Thats huge.

D) They have Orims Chant. This ones a pain in the ass because they can easily Mystic Tutor for it! Chant you, it resolves, they win. Or chant you, you waste your counterspell, and they play IGG. Theres always the possibility of crushing you mid combo with Chant as well.

By having these as separate points you make it sound a lot worse for Solidarity than it actually is. Iggy Pop can only afford to run one of these hate cards at a time, each with their own strengths and weaknesses.
Some of the weaknesses
Defense grid is expensive and doesn't stop Solidarity from comboing in its own turn.
Xantid Swarm also doesn't interfere with the combo, is required early, and can be bounced.
Orim's Chant cost mana in the turn you are going off which strains resources and is owned by Twincast.
Obviously, they also have strengths and are good tools against Solidarity but I won't bother pointing those out here.


E) Brainfreeze. Ive seen people trying this against Solidarity with a bit of success. Again its a Mystic Tutor target, and can actually kill you in response to your own Brainstorm. Evil.
Brainfreeze against Solidarity? That is a horrible solution. Solidarity owns the stack and will just respond on top of the Brainfreezes.


F) Force of Will. Some builds are squeezing these in, which means relying on yours to counter IGG isnt sure fire.

I don't believe Iggy Pop has enough blue cards to make this a reliable solution. Nor does forcing IGG through in this manner unless Iggy Pop is fully comboing going to yield much card advantage.

Mind Twist is banned in Legacy, right, or is this slang for something else?
He was referring to casting Ill gotten gains with a Leyline out which makes your opponent discard their hand while you get to keep 3 cards from your graveyard.

Deep6er
02-05-2007, 07:18 PM
2006 Legacy Championship
Indianapolis, Indiana
August 11, 2006
Coverage (including Top 8 decklists)

Top 8:
1. UG Madness
2. Salvagers-Gamekeeper
3. Vial Goblins with green splash
4. UWBG Landstill
5. Iggy Pop
6. Iggy Pop
7. Truffle Shuffle
8. UGRW Threshold

StarCityGames Duel for Duals IV
Roanoke, Virginia
October 8, 2006 Day 2
All decklists

Top 8:
1. Vial Goblins
2. Vial Goblins with white splash
3. Affinity
4. Iggy Pop
5. Miracle Gro
6. 43 Land
7. Vial Goblins with white splash
8. RGBSA

Aside from the 3 Iggy spots Im seeing a lack of Solidarity here. It might be a very valid arguement that Solidarity's success is still dependant on not making play mistakes. A bad reason to play a deck all day at a GP if you ask me. I mean, look how terribly beatable all the decks in that top eight are for Solidarity, yet its no where amoungst them.

If you check our Historical Top 8 reference page, you'll notice in Germany &#220;bermadness won three times as many top 8 spots than Solidarity in 06 and 07. Im not bragging, but does this just mean people in Germany cant find Resets? Solidarity is discouraging for many players, decks like Iggy aren't. This is what differentiates Iggy and Solidarity the most if you ask me.



No one with half a brain would cast Ill Gotten Gains against Solidarity with no protection. Have you ever even played against a reliable opponent?

A) They have Leyline out, you dont counter IGG and lose. They can mind twist you turn 2 and if its on the play you better have the FoW. This is quite a power play against you.

B) They play Defense Grid. We already know how this card hampers your ability to play counter magic, let alone go off with your own combo.

C) They have Xantid Swarm. Another card you NEED the FoW for. If this card is out your in a pretty bad situation because you'll need to combo off regardless to theyre hand and ability to combo. Just out of fear that they will. Thats huge.

D) They have Orims Chant. This ones a pain in the ass because they can easily Mystic Tutor for it! Chant you, it resolves, they win. Or chant you, you waste your counterspell, and they play IGG. Theres always the possibility of crushing you mid combo with Chant as well.

E) Brainfreeze. Ive seen people trying this against Solidarity with a bit of success. Again its a Mystic Tutor target, and can actually kill you in response to your own Brainstorm. Evil.

F) Force of Will. Some builds are squeezing these in, which means relying on yours to counter IGG isnt sure fire.

Have you tested against each of these combatives? IGG is a pretty extensive deck that I have the overwhelming notion you underestimate.

Actually, I have. You do realize that if they Chant/IGG, and I Force, they have to wait? The longer they wait, the more dire their situation becomes. Also, you do realize that brain freeze vs. mystical tutor is not a fair fight? That's Force's five and six that don't actually cost me an extra card. Post board Chants are not as threatening as you think. If I lose to Chant game one, you can be sure as hell that I'll board in Twincast game 2. Brain Freeze me? Seriously? Thanks for turning on Flash of Insight. Force of Will isn't going to be that big a deal either. A single Force doesn't hurt Solidarity as much as it hurts Iggy Pop. Sure, Xantid Swarm is good, but they have to find it before it's irrelevant. Turn four Swarm is not going to be terribly threatening, and if they mulligan aggressively for it, who's to say they can combo if it hits me? Also, with the Force and Chant arguments, you say they'll play IGG after I deal with it. Is that considered not walking into it with protection? Because I can sure as hell STILL hijack it and combo off myself. Defense Grid might not be bad, but I can still leave three mana open and be able to force their spell. End result, bad times for them.

74o_Clownsuit
02-08-2007, 06:31 PM
Hello. First time poster here, but I've been playing this deck for quite awhile and really enjoy it.

Quick question though. I like the idea of using twincast to hijack an IGG and go infinite. However, wouldn't you need 2 copies of twincast in order to do this?

From the comprehensive rules:

401.7. As the final part of an instant or sorcery spell’s resolution, the card is put into its owner’s graveyard.

As far as I know, when twincasting an opponent's IGG, you would first discard, then pick up 3 cards, then put twincast into the yard. Am I off base here?

As a side note: I don't wish to hijack the thread, but if anyone knows of ANY PLACE in so cal where regular Legacy tournaments are held I'd greatly appreciate it if you'd PM me.

URABAHN
02-08-2007, 07:02 PM
Hello. First time poster here, but I've been playing this deck for quite awhile and really enjoy it.

Quick question though. I like the idea of using twincast to hijack an IGG and go infinite. However, wouldn't you need 2 copies of twincast in order to do this?

From the comprehensive rules:

401.7. As the final part of an instant or sorcery spell’s resolution, the card is put into its owner’s graveyard.

As far as I know, when twincasting an opponent's IGG, you would first discard, then pick up 3 cards, then put twincast into the yard. Am I off base here?

As a side note: I don't wish to hijack the thread, but if anyone knows of ANY PLACE in so cal where regular Legacy tournaments are held I'd greatly appreciate it if you'd PM me.

When Twincast resolves, it puts a copy of IGG on the stack. Twincast itself does not become an IGG.

Silverdragon
02-08-2007, 07:02 PM
The important thing with Twincast is that it creates a copy of the spell unlike the way Fork was played for some time it does not become the copy itself. So the Twincast is in the graveyard before you even start resolving your IGG copy.
edit: too slow :(

74o_Clownsuit
02-08-2007, 10:14 PM
When Twincast resolves, it puts a copy of IGG on the stack. Twincast itself does not become an IGG.

Ohhhhhhh ok that makes more sense. Thank you very much :)

In other news, I'm becoming a big fan of TES. Anyone have a good idea of how to board against this deck? I'm guessing maybe a bounce spell or two to handle xantid swarm or maybe some more twincasts to hijack the IGG.

GreenOne
02-09-2007, 08:35 AM
In other news, I'm becoming a big fan of TES. Anyone have a good idea of how to board against this deck? I'm guessing maybe a bounce spell or two to handle xantid swarm or maybe some more twincasts to hijack the IGG.

I tested some dozens games vs wastedlife and my sideboard went something like:
-3 remand +3 twincast

That was when he had Defense Grids in side and twincast helped greatly in going off in you own turn.
When he went for the 4 MD xantid my plan became:
-3 wish -1 remand +3 twincast +1 meditate

Wish was bad in this matchup (i don't have Etruth in side).

I probably sided wrong in that matchup, so I'd like deep6er to explain his strategy.
However, matchup went something like 50-50, really dependant on his draw and my FoWs.

Tacosnape
02-09-2007, 02:52 PM
Wish might not be the right thing to board out if you're shifting your plan to go off during your own turn. It fetches Turnabout, which you need. At the very least, the 4th Turnabout should have been boarded in if you boarded out the wishes.

GreenOne
02-09-2007, 07:33 PM
Wish might not be the right thing to board out if you're shifting your plan to go off during your own turn. It fetches Turnabout, which you need. At the very least, the 4th Turnabout should have been boarded in if you boarded out the wishes.

yeah, i forgot, it's -1 remand more and +1 turnabout

Reagens
02-19-2007, 07:38 AM
Dave Gearhart for playing Think Twice in Solidarity.



I am very curious about this little innovation. How did this work out for you? Which slots did you replace it with? Were there any other changes to the 'classical' build?

I'm not sure what to think of it. I myself have sometimes had the problem of not having enough card advantage when comboing ant not getting enough of spells to countering the sometimes abysmal meditate of three lands and something just not good enough. On the other hand I can only think of opt to replace with Think Twice, and I think it's more important to have carddraw at one mana then card advantage.

Deep6er
02-19-2007, 08:12 AM
I am very curious about this little innovation. How did this work out for you? Which slots did you replace it with? How did it work out for you? Were there any other changes to the 'classical' build?

I'm not sure what to think of it. I myself have sometimes had the problem of not having enough card advantage when comboing ant not getting enough of spells to countering the sometimes abysmal meditate of three lands and something just not good enough. On the other hand I can only think of opt to replace with Think Twice, and I think it's more important to have carddraw at one mana then card advantage.

I have a bit of a confession to make. I've had a different build of Solidarity for awhile now, but held it so that I could spring it at the GAGG. It was a bad choice at the GAGG because the field was vastly different then I expected, but I'll have the list and descriptions of changes and why on Wednesday (possibly later today if I can get some extra time). So, be patient, and it will come soon.


@Green One: That board plan is no good. When I put up the new list, I'll tell you what I board.

Whit3 Ghost
02-19-2007, 10:33 AM
I don't know how many people were playing it, but one of my teammates reported that some people were splashing Red for Urza's Rage-> Twincast.

NANTUKO_SHADY
02-19-2007, 12:32 PM
I don't know how many people were playing it, but one of my teammates reported that some people were splashing Red for Urza's Rage-> Twincast.

This is true information. Rack and Ruin also took the place of Rebuild I believe, and Sudden shock was also in the board to deal with Meddling Mage. I'm not sure of the exact list though, but I am eager to see it when it comes up.

Deep6er
02-19-2007, 07:45 PM
1) You guys are dickheads. I SAID that I would post the information later.

2) That generates unnecessary confusion as people who are curious WHY I changed things will be left without an answer.

3) That's my fucking thunder. Give it the hell back.

Anyway, since I'm an awesome guy, I'll overlook these insults and post the list and changes now.

-2 Peek
-1 Twincast
+3 Think Twice

Think Twice is amazing. Card advantage allows you to recover from mulliganing and Forces. Also, it being amazing against discard is relevant as well. Peek and Twincast, as amazing as they are, proved to be the best things to cut. In Peek's instance, information was replaced with Card Advantage to allow you to FIGHT their hand instead of mind tricking them out. In Twincast's instance, as randomly amazing as Twincast is, true Card Advantage will allow you to find the tricks the deck has access to more reliably.

-2 Island
+2 Volcanic Island

Volcanic Island taps for Red and Blue mana. Necessary for casting Red spells and is still fetchable. There are no Red cards in the maindeck. It's purely for sideboard purposes. Please do NOT recommend Fire/Ice. The deck you would want the card against would force you to fetch the Volcanic, then promptly waste it. Not worth it.

Sideboard
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 RACK AND RUIN
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 URZA'S RAGE
1 SUDDEN SHOCK
1 STARSTORM
3 Hydroblast
3 Twincast

Rack and Ruin vs. Rebuild: Rebuild was there for the rare occasion where there was more than one artifact that you wanted to get rid of. Rack and Ruin destroying those artifacts is going to be better. Destroying things buys you more time than just bouncing them.

Urza's Rage/Sudden Shock: uncounterable methods of killing Meddling Mage will do two things. First, you have access to whatever card the Mage was blocking (presumably Tide) which will allow you to use ALL the tricks when you go off allowing you to fight the Counters more reliably than if you tried to Pongify it or something. Since they are Uncounterable, it frees up the ability to gain control of the stack again where Counters are less of a threat. Second, KILLING Mage is another method of buying time.

Starstorm: Very useful because of it's ability to 'dial up' and create situations where you have multiple for ones. Let me emphasize that this card is NOT FOR GOBLINS. Do not play or fetch Volcanics against Goblins. They will Wasteland them and you will not have accomplished enough because a single 'Wrath' does not buy enough time if it comes at the expense of a land drop and untap effect.

Those are the changes. What this has effectively done is given us a MUCH better game against Threshold and decks of that ilk, while forfeiting some points against Goblins. The Goblin match is now 50/50 instead of the 60/40 it was before. However, I think that these new options definitely set the Threshold matchup to almost 50/50.

@Green One: If you play against TES with the new build, you board, -1 Turnabout, -1 Meditate, for +1 Chain of Vapor, and +1 Starstorm. That way, you can still wish for Echoing Truth. Now, I know that you have questions and all, but trust me, this list is sound. While you don't HAVE to play this build, I would recommend for metagames that have heavy amounts of Aggro/Control decks.

jamest
02-19-2007, 08:12 PM
Deep6er - Since you're splashing red, why not REB/Pyroblast? Mage removal or anti-countermagic for one mana.

Togit460
02-19-2007, 09:23 PM
Deep6er - Since you're splashing red, why not REB/Pyroblast? Mage removal or anti-countermagic for one mana.

He did list all his removal as uncounterable, so that's my best guess, although it seems like those would be decent for the mirror if not more...

Whit3 Ghost
02-19-2007, 09:46 PM
I did that to force you to do it today, not wednsday, and it also prevents people from speculating like mad.

Deep6er
02-19-2007, 09:48 PM
Ewokslayer has been testing REB. Personally, I don't see the use. It's not going to be Mage removal, and it's worse than Twincast in the Mirror. Also, the only way to make room for it is to cut the uncounterable Mage removal and that's the real reason to run red. Also, Urza's Rage is an alternate win condition. Granted, it doesn't come up terribly often, but it beats the evrloving shit out of Stifle/Blessing.

Citrus-God
02-19-2007, 10:12 PM
Reasons to run REB is because it's flexible. Not only does it remove Mage, but it can counter another hard counter. IMO, that's reason enough to run it. Against certain Gro players who let Tide resolve, REB can be suprisingly helpful at budgeting mana and still counter another hard counter aimed at your untap effect.

jamest
02-19-2007, 10:23 PM
In my playtesting, I often board in REB/Pyro along with Twincast, not in place of it. REB/Pyro replaces Force of Will for card advantage reasons, and Twincast replaces Remand.

REB... It's not going to be Mage removal
Why not? Mage is blue and REB kills blue stuff. Although REB is not uncounterable like Sudden Shock, it's more versatile and mana efficient against Mage/counter decks. REB helps in counterwars when comboing off and it's usually not dead mid combo since you can target your opponent's countermagic still on the stack.

Tacosnape
02-19-2007, 11:47 PM
Rack and Ruin vs. Rebuild: Rebuild was there for the rare occasion where there was more than one artifact that you wanted to get rid of. Rack and Ruin destroying those artifacts is going to be better. Destroying things buys you more time than just bouncing them.

The problem with this is that almost every deck in existence that packs two artifacts to shoot, presumably Chalice and some other random Stax piece like Trinisphere or Smokestack or even the second Chalice, runs four Wastelands. This means in order to R&R away the pieces, you'll have to expose yourself to said Wastelands, which you have said you didn't want to do against Goblins.

Now against an actual true Stax build, I can see where you'd have the time to recover from the loss of a land, as Stax's clock is slower than a paraplegic in a footrace. But against Faerie Stompy, Junk Pile, or any Chalice Aggro deck, this seems like it could be pretty crucial. What's more, it doesn't seem impossible or even improbable that a true Stax build could manage to play as many as four disruption pieces, meaning even if you counter one and Rack the other two, there could still be one out there. Chalice has always been tricky to go off around, and the fact that you'll be likely to lose a land to Wasteland in this scenario makes it harder to go off around the rogue Trinisphere.

I had been doing well against Stax and Goblins both by running 3 Rebuilds in sideboard, siding two in when Chalice was anticipated, and being able to cycle them while going off if needed. I must admit the idea of Red has me intrigued, but I'm curious to know how you handle the Wasteland problem.

Reagens
02-20-2007, 04:40 AM
Some questions to the above.

What kind of meta were you expecting? A lot of gro I suppose?
Does the addition of think twice slow the deck down?
Based on your experiences do you think the addition of red is worth it in a random meta or only in very defined meta's?


Here in Belgium we are experiencing a revival of black. Last sunday I played a local tournament with 30+ people attending. First place split was between an altered pikula deck and hanni fish.
I myself played solidarity.
First round I win (barely) against white weenie (I had four turns for a draw spell and proceeded to get 3 land and something irrelevant losing me the first game).
Second round I play against a fast affinity deck. I get very decent draws and proceed to win very easily.
Third round I know I have a good chance of encountering landstill. But alas it's the black deck that will eventually split for the win.
First game goes something like swamp-dark ritual-piracy charm-hymn and second turn sinkhole. I recover a little and I am forced to go off at 3 land. I think I made a playing error with an impulse not taking my time so I lose.
Second game is dark ritual, piracy charm and sinkhole (which i force i believe). Second turn hymn. Then he proceeds to a nantuko. With nantuko in play he twice topdecks a ritual killing me too soon to do anything.
Fourth round I play against 8-land stompy.
First game I fail to see the danger of a resolved rancor (I could have forced it but chose to count on my rather good hand). I combo at four land resolving 2 impulses and a meditate to find another untap effect. In vain because they were all in the bottom half of the deck.
Second game I am forced to go off on three lands (I had issues finding land). And altough I have a decent hand I don't manage to go past his two blessings just falling short.
Frustrated I drop and go home.
Top 8 contained another pikula, 2 goblins, 8-land stompy, 1 affinity, 1 landstill

Silverdragon
02-20-2007, 04:52 AM
Ok now I understand why you'd want Think Twice against aggro/control, but wouldn't a third Flash of Insight be at least as useful as one of the Think Twice? Maybe -1 Twincast, -2 Peek, +2 Think Twice, +1 Flash of Insight; The only real concern would be that Flash costs 3 to setup without carddisadvantage and that you need atleast 1 other blue card in the grave during the combo (so other Flash of Insight will be weaker during the combo) however specifically against Threshold I'd say generally you do have the time to set it up for 3 mana and unless they run Jötun Grunt it is not that hard to always keep a blue card in your grave so it can work like Think Twice.
The red splash looks completely reasonable and solid to me. Nice tech! However is Starstorm really the best choice considering you need both your Volcanics to be able to play it?
While writing this I had the idea of a different approach to the whole deck. What if we focus even more on our grave and the flashback mechanic? Playing perhaps 4 Think Twice, 4 Flash of Insight and 4 Brainfreeze maindeck (maybe with 4 Cunning Wishes as well)? This could slow the deck down but make the "freeze yourself" plan really powerful and could make the Thresh and Fish matchup even better.

Deep6er
02-20-2007, 06:53 AM
OK, guess I'll start bottom up.
@Silverdragon: With a single Volcanic in play, you can use an untap effect to get another red. Also, Flash costs 3. Think Twice costs 2. Finding the THIRD land is much more difficult than finding the second. Also, Flash is an emergency type card. You don't WANT to have to kill it's utility just to draw a single extra card. That's why Think Twice is good. It allows you to; find the third land, gain Card Advantage, and save Flashes for later. The 4 of everything plan is no good. Flash is terrible in multiples and antisynergistic with each other. Wishes are slow and not terribly efficient. You would slow the deck down ENTIRELY too much.

@Reagens: Think Twice slows the deck down just a little bit. However, the advantages of running it against discard are obvious. Also, I had thought there to be a much higher concentration of Aggro/Control and that's the metagame the deck was aimed for. Also, just as a note, Starstorm is pretty RIDICULOUS against Stompy :).

@Tacosnape: Yes, I know that against Stax Rack and Ruin might cost me a land, however against Fairy Stompy it won't. Also, I don't think it will be terribly often that a third piece of hate resolves. Granted, the first two could have gotten through before I found Force, but the third? I'm not terribly certain about that. Also, how did you fit 3 Rebuilds into your board and why? Unless your metagame has 7 Stax players and you as the only people, I can't see a real reason behind it.

@Jamest: REB isn't Mage removal because it's counterable. I play the uncounterable removal in order to return the gamestate to something that I can take advantage of. Also, Twincast is better than REB. Force is also free. You want the deck to be about versatility instead of about countermagic. Also, what does your sideboard look like? Sounds to me it might be too geared toward the Threshold matchup.

@AntiAmerican: REB is not nearly as flexible as Twincast is. Those Threshold players you speak of are letting Tide resolve because it 'turns on' another piece of countermagic. REB is decent, but it's not what the deck needs. Why REB something when you can jut leave it on the stack and come back to it later when it's on the stack and you have Force + Irrelevant blue card? Too much countermagic will also kill your draws. I like JUST Force. I've also tested REB and found it to be unsatisfactory.

Ewokslayer
02-20-2007, 09:19 AM
I figure I will put in my two cents.
I am still in favor of Rebuild over Rack and Ruin. Perhaps it is just the numerous good times I have had with the card. Completely wiping out a Stax deck's board is some good (I <3 Phyrexian Warbeast).
I also believe that at least a single REB should be in the board. The card is versatile and cheap. In mana tight situations where you can't afford the uncounterable answers to mage it provides what you need.
I have thought about going up to more REB's to actually board in against I suppose Gro and the Mirror, but it does seem fairly awful in the mirror and only marginal against Gro but I haven't been able to test how useful attacking their hand manipulation is.

Beyond that.
How they heck do you lose to Enchantress and the Mirror?
I think you are about one more loss in the mirror from having your privileges to discuss that matchup revoked. :smile:

Reagens
02-20-2007, 11:01 AM
I figure I will put in my two cents.
I am still in favor of Rebuild over Rack and Ruin. Perhaps it is just the numerous good times I have had with the card. Completely wiping out a Stax deck's board is some good (I <3 Phyrexian Warbeast).


I think rack and ruin is more useful against affinity tough. Because they can build up there board again so easily. I think I will be testing the new changes but on first sight I really doubt the usefullness of starstorm.

In general for the guys who already tested.
Did you have any problems getting to double red? It seems a tall order from time to time. How many times did you draw a volcanic knowing it would get wasted? Or do you keep it in your hand and use it when they tap there wasteland? If so what about manascrews? The deck has some games where it really needs to fight for its mana. Does the inclusion of volcanics change mulling, certainly game 1 when you don't know what you're facing?

@David
Not being an idiot would also have helped against stompy.

Tacosnape
02-20-2007, 11:09 AM
@Tacosnape: Yes, I know that against Stax Rack and Ruin might cost me a land, however against Fairy Stompy it won't. Also, I don't think it will be terribly often that a third piece of hate resolves. Granted, the first two could have gotten through before I found Force, but the third? I'm not terribly certain about that. Also, how did you fit 3 Rebuilds into your board and why? Unless your metagame has 7 Stax players and you as the only people, I can't see a real reason behind it.

That's true. Faerie Stompy doesn't run Wasteland. And you'll easily get the targets.

I fit three rebuilds in the board because everybody and his dog's starting to play Chalice of the Void in either maindeck or sideboard, and I discovered I could board two of them into the maindeck against Goblins without compromising my ability to go off on a clear board. The concept is that by boarding in a small amount of Hydroblasts and Rebuilds, the deck has maindeck answers for both Chalice -and- Pillar. My boarding strategy assuming I was on the draw game two goes -4 Remand, -1 Flash of Insight, +3 Hydroblast, +2 Rebuild. On the play game 2 or 3 I like Remand a lot more, so I'm still working on my exact game plan for that. (Any advice?)

My board as it stands:
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain Freeze (I have 3 main, personal preference)
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
3 Rebuild
3 Twincast
3 Hydroblast

Ewokslayer
02-20-2007, 11:11 AM
I think rack and ruin is more useful against affinity tough. Because they can build up there board again so easily.

I am not to sure about that statement. Affinity can more easily shrug off a pair of removal spells than it can replay its hand. Resetting Affinity back to turn 1 I think is more powerful than killing a Ravager and an Enforcer or something like that.

I think I will be testing the new changes but on first sight I really doubt the usefullness of starstorm.

I agree that Starstorm is probably the most questionable inclusion. Its effect is strong but can often be an expensive fog by the time you can generate the mana to clear the board. Getting double red isn't too hard but it often involves burning an untap effect. This does decrease the card advantage starstorm can generate.

nitewolf9
02-20-2007, 11:46 AM
I think starstorm would be the only questionable thing about the board that I noticed, but then again I didn't really play against any of the decks this weekend where you'd want it. It seems like it will situationally just win you the game, but could that be better as a more versatile piece of removal/utility? I don't know what I'd replace it with, a single REB? Maybe the fourth twincast?

Oh, and I think this deck should be named Crimson Tide.

barron
02-20-2007, 12:34 PM
I like the idea of mixing up the build with different colors since it keeps people on their toes. I myself have been playing with green and hunting packs, but only just in recreational games. Urza's rage being uncounterable is nice, but have any of you really had a problem winning with the old build once you had 14 mana *and* a twincast available? I just assume it may have happened to me once since there have been those times where i meditated and twincasted into jank, but with 14 mana I can't think of it ever happening to me. With those sort of resources you can play through anything.

jodawe
02-20-2007, 12:45 PM
The Goblin match is now 50/50 instead of the 60/40
Wow... :eek: Seems like a bad idea.

Reagens
02-20-2007, 12:46 PM
Maybe we should be more careful with speaking about affinity in general terms. Like I mentioned a few pages earlier I tested against high speed affinty quite a few games and found out that the combination of free spells (ornithopter) and affinity for artifacts are two things that make it very easy for them to recover from a rebuild. I think the problem for me was that I had to play rebuild in their combat phase (facing lethal damage or fearing fling for lethal damage) and as such they lose very little time rebuilding their board. I am not sure if rack and ruin will be a sufficient answer but that's what testing is for.

Volt
02-20-2007, 12:46 PM
I like the idea of mixing up the build with different colors since it keeps people on their toes. I myself have been playing with green and hunting packs, but only just in recreational games. Urza's rage being uncounterable is nice, but have any of you really had a problem winning with the old build once you had 14 mana *and* a twincast available? I just assume it may have happened to me once since there have been those times where i meditated and twincasted into jank, but with 14 mana I can't think of it ever happening to me. With those sort of resources you can play through anything.

Yeah, I agree. Once you've gotten to the point where you can cast Urza's Rage with kickback and Twincast it, it seems like a given that your opponent has long since run out of counterspells. It's cool and all, but I don't really see the point. Show me the light.

Ewokslayer
02-20-2007, 12:53 PM
The Goblin match is now 50/50 instead of the 60/40 Wow... :eek: Seems like a bad idea.

Well you are giving up about 10 points in that matchup to gain about 15 points in the gro matchup plus you gain some in other aggro-control matchups.

I don't think the build actually loses a full 10 points in the matchup. However, the splash will worsen your Goblin matchup but I still think it is favorable preboard for Solidarity. Post board is hard to say depending on the various sideboards.


I think the problem for me was that I had to play rebuild in their combat phase (facing lethal damage or fearing fling for lethal damage) and as such they lose very little time rebuilding their board. Will destroying two artifacts (either 2 creatures, or a creature and plating) make the attack non-lethal?
How about next turns attack? I don't believe that Rack and Ruin will buy you any additional time against Affinity that Rebuild doesn't already buy.

barron
02-20-2007, 02:26 PM
I don't like the idea of making an already losable matchup to the most common tier one deck in the format even worse, even if it slightly makes the thresh matchup better.

Anyway, I have been trying to work on a new SB to keep up with the new decks (epic), cards (extirpate), and sbs (chalices everywhere etc).

My deck is as it was before (deep6er list). I do think there can be some improvement to it, but I haven't discovered it yet. I plan on staying with the mono blue build and I refuse to give up on peek, especially after playing a modified fish deck that really surprised me by siding in extirpate. Pre SB it was just w/u, he's crafty. If I didn't peek at his hand I would have lost for sure since extirpate is a hard that you really have to play around.

I think that cutting 1 brainfreeze in the SB is optimal since I now no longer want to plan on multiple small freezes as a strategy. I find with bounce the mages just come back and with black having a brainfreeze in the graveyard prematurely (discard) is very hazardous. I plan on going for the long freezes and just have one in the sb to wish for, should it come up. Here is what I am thinking so far.

3 twincast: I really wish I could find room for one more in the MD
2 Snap: at least buys a turn against threshold and X/B decks, and since all
you really need to bounce against threshold is creatures this just seems
like a better card in the game than turnabout, well, -1 turnabout for sure
and -1 X
2 Hydroblast: gobbos
2 Echoing Truth: I don't like chain of vapor anymore since the most
common non-creature spells that I will bounce are stuff like chalice and
trinisphere (pillar dies to blast), chalice is almost always first set to one,
and at 3cc echoing truth is just superier. Also, it takes care of ETW
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Brainfreeze
1 Rebuild
1 stroke of genius
1 ?

I haven't exactly figured out what to put in that slot, yet. I know it will be brushed off, but i am thinking of Tolarian winds, among other things like a second rebuild. The reason is because i would say most of my losses come to fizzling due to drawing jank and once i already cunning wished for the meditate there is no draw left (other than stroke, which can be cumbersome in saving your ass). The situation has just come up more than once when I have 6+ lands in my hand along with other spells that don't draw me cards. I have the feeling it will be the least card used, but I also think that it will save my ass on occasions draw 7+ for 5? sounds good to me.

Deep6er
02-20-2007, 04:33 PM
I don't like the idea of making an already losable matchup to the most common tier one deck in the format even worse, even if it slightly makes the thresh matchup better.

Anyway, I have been trying to work on a new SB to keep up with the new decks (epic), cards (extirpate), and sbs (chalices everywhere etc).

My deck is as it was before (deep6er list). I do think there can be some improvement to it, but I haven't discovered it yet. I plan on staying with the mono blue build and I refuse to give up on peek, especially after playing a modified fish deck that really surprised me by siding in extirpate. Pre SB it was just w/u, he's crafty. If I didn't peek at his hand I would have lost for sure since extirpate is a hard that you really have to play around.

I think that cutting 1 brainfreeze in the SB is optimal since I now no longer want to plan on multiple small freezes as a strategy. I find with bounce the mages just come back and with black having a brainfreeze in the graveyard prematurely (discard) is very hazardous. I plan on going for the long freezes and just have one in the sb to wish for, should it come up. Here is what I am thinking so far.

3 twincast: I really wish I could find room for one more in the MD
2 Snap: at least buys a turn against threshold and X/B decks, and since all
you really need to bounce against threshold is creatures this just seems
like a better card in the game than turnabout, well, -1 turnabout for sure
and -1 X
2 Hydroblast: gobbos
2 Echoing Truth: I don't like chain of vapor anymore since the most
common non-creature spells that I will bounce are stuff like chalice and
trinisphere (pillar dies to blast), chalice is almost always first set to one,
and at 3cc echoing truth is just superier. Also, it takes care of ETW
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Brainfreeze
1 Rebuild
1 stroke of genius
1 ?

I haven't exactly figured out what to put in that slot, yet. I know it will be brushed off, but i am thinking of Tolarian winds, among other things like a second rebuild. The reason is because i would say most of my losses come to fizzling due to drawing jank and once i already cunning wished for the meditate there is no draw left (other than stroke, which can be cumbersome in saving your ass). The situation has just come up more than once when I have 6+ lands in my hand along with other spells that don't draw me cards. I have the feeling it will be the least card used, but I also think that it will save my ass on occasions draw 7+ for 5? sounds good to me.

No wonder you're worried about the Goblins matchup. Why do you only have 2 Hydroblasts? I play 3 and was playing 4 before the change. Also, Tolarian Winds is not terribly good. Yeah, there's the one or two instances where it totally blows your opponent away, but mostly it sits there being bad. Trust me, Winds has already been done and found to be unsatisfactory. I hate Freeze in the board. There are too many cards in the Wishboard that are situational (and mostly irreplaceable) that adding another one feels like a waste. Brain Freeze is a mostly dead card. I prefer 2 in the main, and that's it.

Starstorm: This card is for Fish type decks. Game 2, you board in a bit of removal, and have Wish to blow their board away. Dark Confidant is frustrating, and using removal on him is not out of the question. However, it also has applications against Threshold and TES. Not to mention a variety of decks where having a second Echoing Truth type card is valuable.

Rack and Ruin: Feel free to change this to Rebuild. I think Rack and Ruin is better because the ability to destroy things will always buy you more time than bouncing them. I also believe that it's good against Stax, even though you lose your Volcanic, because the game goes long anyway, and you should have plenty of land out. Being forced to combo on 6 land isn't very different from 7.

Snap: This card sucks. Seriously. Ewokslayer and I both tested this card and found it to be unsatisfactory almost all the time.


@Barron: Out of curiosity, have you read every page of the Solidaity thread? I know it's a lot to ask, but a lot of your concerns have been addressed before (Snap, Chain of Vapor, Tolarian Winds) and discussed. I understand if you haven't, but giving me a bit of credit when I talk about changes seems like it might be nice. Trust me. Whenever I've made changes to the deck, I test extensively to see if it's worthwhile. I've tested just about every single relevant blue instant in order to find the most effective combination possible. I'm not saying that I'm the absolute authority on everything, just credit me with what I've said I've done. On another note, I also miss Peek, but it was the card that Think Twice mostly resembled in terms of applications and intentions.

@Volt: The Rage kill is there for style. Urza's Rage itself is primarily to kill Mage. The fact that it gives you an alternate win condition is just extra. It is by no means a primary win condition.

@Nitewolf9: The deck is called The Red Tide (or Red Tide for short) after the nautical phenomenon (Clive Cussler books are cool).

@Rebuild agaisnt Affinity: People, if Affinity is a concern in your metagame, by all means play it over Rack and Ruin. I'm not in the least bit worried about Affinity, and reserve Rack and Ruin for decks that I might possibly face, which is mainly Chalice Aggro type decks.

barron
02-20-2007, 05:31 PM
Yes I have read the thread in it's entirety, which is why i said my mentioning of tolarian winds would be brushed aside. I saw the earlier discussion on it. The brainfreeze is mostly in the SB because of extirpate. It's something I know I will be facing. I know snap isn't that great, which is why it's not MD. But against the gro type players I have played it has shown to be superior to E truth. It buys a turn and still alots mana for necessary draw spells. The other bounce don't do that and turnabout buys a turn, but is more of a gamble since it comes down to the one card draw.

Deep6er
02-20-2007, 05:42 PM
Yes I have read the thread in it's entirety, which is why i said my mentioning of tolarian winds would be brushed aside. I saw the earlier discussion on it. The brainfreeze is mostly in the SB because of extirpate. It's something I know I will be facing. I know snap isn't that great, which is why it's not MD. But against the gro type players I have played it has shown to be superior to E truth. It buys a turn and still alots mana for necessary draw spells. The other bounce don't do that and turnabout buys a turn, but is more of a gamble since it comes down to the one card draw.

I don't even begin to understand why you have a Brain Freeze in the board for Extirpate. You know that Extirpates remove things from the game, which, conveniently, is EXACTLY where Cunning Wish goes to look for cards. Unless you're planning on boarding it in, which would make less sense if you were afraid of Extirpate, I don't see the application.

The cool thing about the Red version, is the ability to kill the Mage. Thus, inferior bounce spells are unnecessary. Also, Sudden Shock/Urza's Rage are cheap enough to not really interfere with any draw spells you're going to play.

barron
02-20-2007, 06:00 PM
yeah i blanked there.

I can understand why you would run red for the damage against mage, but right now my meta consists of 0 threshold, though i think one or two people are now making them, but plenty of goblins. So I think ducking wastelands is the optimal position to take.

Deep6er
02-20-2007, 06:49 PM
yeah i blanked there.

I can understand why you would run red for the damage against mage, but right now my meta consists of 0 threshold, though i think one or two people are now making them, but plenty of goblins. So I think ducking wastelands is the optimal position to take.

That's fine. In that case, you might want to consider leaving Think Twice out as well. I did in fact slow the deck down a bit with the addition of Think Twice and if you're metagame is ultra goblin heavy, then leave out the Twincasts as well. Just a little note here, I figured out a nifty way for those of you who wish to stay monocolor to deal with Chalice. Look into a card called Karn's Touch. It's pretty nifty because of a couple of applications. Make equipment fall off. Kill Chalice. Kill Mox. Just a consideration. I only did light testing with Karn's Touch. Anyway, look into it.

Soto
02-20-2007, 06:55 PM
Hey,
I'm totally new to Legacy and I've chose to make a Solidarity deck and also a Red Death deck. I know how to play Red Death as it is mostly beats+some disruption, but I'm having difficulty going off with solidarity.

Could one of you take me step by step with your plays in an example. Also what turn do u usually win and how?

Thx in advance. And nice to meet you all!

Ewokslayer
02-20-2007, 07:13 PM
Hey,
I'm totally new to Legacy and I've chose to make a Solidarity deck and also a Red Death deck. I know how to play Red Death as it is mostly beats+some disruption, but I'm having difficulty going off with solidarity.

Could one of you take me step by step with your plays in an example. Also what turn do u usually win and how?

Thx in advance. And nice to meet you all!

You should probably start off with the Primer (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=612)
It is abit old but still useful

Tacosnape
02-20-2007, 11:22 PM
Just a little note here, I figured out a nifty way for those of you who wish to stay monocolor to deal with Chalice. Look into a card called Karn's Touch. It's pretty nifty because of a couple of applications. Make equipment fall off. Kill Chalice. Kill Mox. Just a consideration. I only did light testing with Karn's Touch. Anyway, look into it.

I have never seen this card in my life and I've surveyed every blue instant on gatherer at least five times. It's completely bizarre, awesome against Chalice, and probably far far far too narrow to ever be used. Maybe if any other 0-Cost artifacts in existence hurt us.

Out of curiosity, Is there any reason we (we meaning the ones still in monocolor) don't use a Psionic Blast to pick off Mage/Confidant/Glowrider/Etc?

jamest
02-21-2007, 12:21 AM
@Jamest: REB isn't Mage removal because it's counterable.
Hmm, by that logic, Reset isn't an untap spell... Besides, REB is cheap enough to play around Daze or be easily Twincast-able if countered. Plus, you can side in multiple REB's (since it's versatile) unlike Sudden Shock, which risks being a dead card.


I play the uncounterable removal in order to return the gamestate to something that I can take advantage of.
Keep in mind that if aggro-control can't counter your removal, they will simply aim it at something else. This is a general concept that all combo decks should be mindful of when considering Split Second stuff. For example, I think Wipe Away in Iggy Pop is a poor card.


Also, Twincast is better than REB.
I should emphasize that I use BOTH Twincast and REB. Whether Twincast is better is a moot point.


Force is also free.
Mana-wise, it's free. But card disadvantage is a cost too. Remember, one of your motivations for running Think Twice was to help recover from FOW.
Compare these two hands after countering something:
{FOW, X, TT ...} becomes {X, X ...}
{REB, X, X ...} becomes {X, X ...}
In order to reach the same game state, Force of Will plus flashback Think Twice (or Flash of Insight) requires 4 more mana. The fact that you don't have to pitch a card to REB is indirectly a draw spell.


Also, what does your sideboard look like? Sounds to me it might be too geared toward the Threshold matchup.
SB
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
4 Twincast
3 Hydroblast
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Stroke of Genius
1 High Tide
MD
3 High Tide (personal preference, I like 7 Tides)
4 Cunning Wish
4 Reset
4 Turnabout
4 Meditate
4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
2 Flash of Insight
4 Remand
4 Force of Will
1 Brain Freeze (I often swap this with Twincast)
18 Island/Fetch/Dual

Currently, my sideboard plan versus Threshold is:
+4 Twincast +2 Red Elemental Blast +2 Pyroblast
-4 Force of Will -3 Remand -1 Brain Freeze
I encourage you to test this and let me know what you think. On the flipside, I should test your Thresh plan. What do you board in and out? Is your strategy to cast multiple smaller Freezes or normal comboing or ... ?

Deep6er
02-21-2007, 10:21 AM
Hmm, by that logic, Reset isn't an untap spell... Besides, REB is cheap enough to play around Daze or be easily Twincast-able if countered. Plus, you can side in multiple REB's (since it's versatile) unlike Sudden Shock, which risks being a dead card.


Keep in mind that if aggro-control can't counter your removal, they will simply aim it at something else. This is a general concept that all combo decks should be mindful of when considering Split Second stuff. For example, I think Wipe Away in Iggy Pop is a poor card.


I should emphasize that I use BOTH Twincast and REB. Whether Twincast is better is a moot point.


Mana-wise, it's free. But card disadvantage is a cost too. Remember, one of your motivations for running Think Twice was to help recover from FOW.
Compare these two hands after countering something:
{FOW, X, TT ...} becomes {X, X ...}
{REB, X, X ...} becomes {X, X ...}
In order to reach the same game state, Force of Will plus flashback Think Twice (or Flash of Insight) requires 4 more mana. The fact that you don't have to pitch a card to REB is indirectly a draw spell.


SB
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
4 Twincast
3 Hydroblast
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Stroke of Genius
1 High Tide
MD
3 High Tide (personal preference, I like 7 Tides)
4 Cunning Wish
4 Reset
4 Turnabout
4 Meditate
4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
2 Flash of Insight
4 Remand
4 Force of Will
1 Brain Freeze (I often swap this with Twincast)
18 Island/Fetch/Dual

Currently, my sideboard plan versus Threshold is:
+4 Twincast +2 Red Elemental Blast +2 Pyroblast
-4 Force of Will -3 Remand -1 Brain Freeze
I encourage you to test this and let me know what you think. On the flipside, I should test your Thresh plan. What do you board in and out? Is your strategy to cast multiple smaller Freezes or normal comboing or ... ?

What I meant about counterable Mage removal is the fact that if they counter what goes at the Mage, they still have the advantage. With a dead Mage, you have the ability to regain control of the stack with High Tide. Must counters aren't what the deck needs. What the deck needs are ways to kill Mage, because countermagic WHILE GOING OFF isn't what should be worrying. What SHOULD be worrying is the ability to kill High Tide and thus a great deal of our ability to control the stack. What you're also missing is the fact that I don't side in Sudden Shock. I board in Urza's Rage and Echoing Truth in addition to the Twincasts. Urza's Rage has come in handy in a couple of situations, and it's alternate win is amazing against multiple Mages/Stifles/Blessing. You don't think you'll have 7 cards in hand when you combo off without Think Twice do you? Before, it was unlikely because you probably forced a Mage. Think Twice puts you ahead of them on Card Advantage (mostly the Bardo versions) and means that you DO in fact have extra cards to pitch to Force. It's rarely 7 vs 7 even against Hatfield Threshold.

I think it's kind of funny how your list completely disregards quite a few of the things that I've been adamant about. 4 Wishes is entirely too many which is compunded by the fact that you have Stroke as the ONLY 'draw' spell in your board. At this point, I don't even know if we can continue with the discussion. Your list seems to indicate a refusal to believe any of the points that I thought were established as fundamental. 4 Meditates in the main? Why? Did you just not believe me whenever I was talking? I've been against the 4th maindeck Meditate for quite some time and everybody I've talked to has come around and agreed with me. Also, 4 Wishes? Wish is slow against Goblins and doesn't actually count as Tides 4-7. Just so I can begin to understand this, why did you make these changes? I've addressed and refuted these changes before with logical arguments and specific examples from my own play. You asked me to test this. I've already done this. The deck HAD 4 Wishes and 4 Meditates at one point in time (in addition to a Tide in the board). I was extremely unhappy with it. Wish was too often a dead card and I would be sitting on TOO many dead cards because of Force/Land. If you could give me some points as to why you think your list is better than mine, I would appreciate it. I'll discuss the various pros and cons with you, but truly, your list boggles my mind.

Anyway, I suppose I'll keep going. Uh, in your sideboard plan, you lose if they counter your Wishes. Also, what have your testing results been with this list/boarding strategy? I'm not sure it could be that good. Post board they're likely to counter Wish or Mage it (probably with the second one). Anyway, my new board plan against Threshold is -4 Remands, -1 Meditate, +1 Urza's Rage, +1 Echoing Truth, +3 Twincast.

Hope you get back to me soon, as it seems like we have a fair bit to discuss.

NANTUKO_SHADY
02-21-2007, 12:25 PM
Clearly, maindeck Twincast and Peek are both insane in the mirror. So my question is, how do you think this new list with the red splash runs in the mirror in comparison to the mono version? I can see how Think Twice can be a set-up card that the mono-colored player doesn't have access to, but do you think that Peek or the random Twincast can hurt you? I'm unsure of the actual numbers. I was just wondering how the mirror match is affected by the red splash, if affected at all.

Ewokslayer
02-21-2007, 12:34 PM
Clearly, maindeck Twincast and Peek are both insane in the mirror. So my question is, how do you think this new list with the red splash runs in the mirror in comparison to the mono version? I can see how Think Twice can be a set-up card that the mono-colored player doesn't have access to, but do you think that Peek or the random Twincast can hurt you? I'm unsure of the actual numbers. I was just wondering how the mirror match is affected by the red splash, if affected at all.

It really shouldn't affect the mirror that much.
Peek is only marginal in the mirror to begin with. You do give up the ability to see their hand but you gain card advantage and a marginal response to brain Freeze (obviously, Flash of Insight is better.)
The one random Twincast in the main is obviously a bit of a loss but as a one of it generally won't come up that often. Post board you still have 3 twincasts that you can access.

NANTUKO_SHADY
02-21-2007, 01:08 PM
Do you feel at a loss not having access to the 2x Brainfreeze in the sideboard after game 1? Often times, it seems in the mirror, that the game comes down to who plays more Brainfreezes. A single Brainfreeze for leathal or close to lethal can really break open the stack war. It forces your opponent to kill you as Brainfreeze pressures them back against the wall. If you can fight a decent fight in the stack war, and cast multiple Brainfreezes in response to your opponent's untap/draw spells, it seems like you would have the advantage. I'm not trying to fight the cause of this deck, I think red definetly has potential and Urza's Rage is sexy, but I was just trying to figure out if the mirror match should be of any more concern with this new build.

Ewokslayer
02-21-2007, 01:12 PM
I don't usually board in additional Brainfreezes in the mirror.

They tend to seem win more and can turn on your opponent's deck via Flash and now to a marginal extent Think Twice (though that is fairly desperate)

z38gm
02-21-2007, 01:34 PM
I am reading up on this deck and want to learn how to play it. I have a pretty good understanding of the idea and legacy as a whole but I was wondering if someone could post both a Mono U version and Ur version of the deck that are mostly agreed upon.

I have looked for a little but cannot find an updated list anywhere.

Thanks

NANTUKO_SHADY
02-21-2007, 01:41 PM
I am reading up on this deck and want to learn how to play it. I have a pretty good understanding of the idea and legacy as a whole but I was wondering if someone could post both a Mono U version and Ur version of the deck that are mostly agreed upon.

I have looked for a little but cannot find an updated list anywhere.

Thanks

Well, here's the Mono U version that I run, and I'm pretty sure it is an "accepted" build. To find out the red version, go back a few pages and you can see Deep6er's post on the changes he made FROM the Mono U version.

Solidarity

12x Island
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
2x Peek
4x High Tide
2x Opt
4x Brainstorm
4x Impulse
4x Reset
2x Brainfreeze
1x Twincast
4x Remand
2x Flash of Insight
3x Cunning Wish
3x Meditate
3x Turnabout
4x Force of Will

The Sideboard:

1x Stroke of Genius
4x Hydroblast <---- I cut a Hydroblast for a Wipe Away, but it's your call.
2x Brainfreeze
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Echoing Truth
1x Rebuild
1x Turnabout
1x Meditate
3x Twincast


If you're too lazy to look back, the red version is:

-2 Peek
-1 Twincast
+3 Think Twice

-2 Island
+2 Volcanic Island


Sideboard
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 RACK AND RUIN
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 URZA'S RAGE
1 SUDDEN SHOCK
1 STARSTORM
3 Hydroblast
3 Twincast

Lego
02-21-2007, 02:18 PM
Out of curiosity, Is there any reason we (we meaning the ones still in monocolor) don't use a Psionic Blast to pick off Mage/Confidant/Glowrider/Etc?

From what David has been saying repeatedly, the reason the red splash was chosen is that your removal for Meddling Mage is now uncounterable. High Tide is one of the most important cards in the Thresh matchup, because it provides you the mana you need to control the stack. Meddling Mage takes away that ability, so uncounterable removal allows you to return the game to a state where you can properly control the stack.


Anyway, my new board plan against Threshold is -4 Remands, -1 Meditate, +1 Urza's Rage, +1 Echoing Truth, +3 Twincast.

I've only played the matchup versus Thresh a couple of times, but I was under the impression that it was all about card advantage. Why would take out Meditate? Is skipping a turn that big?

Also, does Think Twice open you up to any more graveyard hate? Admittedly, graveyard disruption is sub-optimal versus Solidarity, but often board control decks and the like will have dead cards main, and not enough to board in from the side, so they might as well bring in Tormod's Crypt. I assume this comes up so rarely that it won't matter, but have you experienced this at all? Does Crypt become at all useful in these situations?

Deep6er
02-21-2007, 03:22 PM
From what David has been saying repeatedly, the reason the red splash was chosen is that your removal for Meddling Mage is now uncounterable. High Tide is one of the most important cards in the Thresh matchup, because it provides you the mana you need to control the stack. Meddling Mage takes away that ability, so uncounterable removal allows you to return the game to a state where you can properly control the stack.



I've only played the matchup versus Thresh a couple of times, but I was under the impression that it was all about card advantage. Why would take out Meditate? Is skipping a turn that big?

Also, does Think Twice open you up to any more graveyard hate? Admittedly, graveyard disruption is sub-optimal versus Solidarity, but often board control decks and the like will have dead cards main, and not enough to board in from the side, so they might as well bring in Tormod's Crypt. I assume this comes up so rarely that it won't matter, but have you experienced this at all? Does Crypt become at all useful in these situations?

Actually, skipping a turn IS big against Threshold. Unfortunately, that's one of the few decks that can actually take advantage of a skipped turn. However, since you have a bunch of Twincasts in the deck post board, your combo isn't terribly affected.

Also, graveyard disruption doesn't do anything. Understand that wasting a card on Crypt still counts as Card Advantage for me. It's also unlikely I'm sitting on double Think Twice or something like that as I usually, y'know, USE them.

Lego
02-21-2007, 04:38 PM
Also, graveyard disruption doesn't do anything. Understand that wasting a card on Crypt still counts as Card Advantage for me. It's also unlikely I'm sitting on double Think Twice or something like that as I usually, y'know, USE them.

Fair enough, that's what I had assumed.

With the new Red splash, what is your actual game plan against Thresh? I know for a while it was to possibly hijack their draw engine, and then go for multiple small freezes. Is this still the plan, or does the ability to remove Meddling Mage mean you can simply "combo big"?

Tacosnape
02-21-2007, 05:20 PM
From what David has been saying repeatedly, the reason the red splash was chosen is that your removal for Meddling Mage is now uncounterable. High Tide is one of the most important cards in the Thresh matchup, because it provides you the mana you need to control the stack. Meddling Mage takes away that ability, so uncounterable removal allows you to return the game to a state where you can properly control the stack.

While all that is fascinating, it's also completely not the question I asked.

My question had nothing to do with whether or not Psionic Blast was on par with Urza's Rage and Sudden Shock for removing Mage and didn't really have anything to do with the red splash in the slightest.

My question was, is there a reason we don't run a Psionic Blast in board in the non-red builds?

NANTUKO_SHADY
02-21-2007, 06:06 PM
While all that is fascinating, it's also completely not the question I asked.

My question had nothing to do with whether or not Psionic Blast was on par with Urza's Rage and Sudden Shock for removing Mage and didn't really have anything to do with the red splash in the slightest.

My question was, is there a reason we don't run a Psionic Blast in board in the non-red builds?

I don't see the point in Psionic Blast in the board. Really, we already have at LEAST two ways to bounce it (Echoing Truth, Chain of Vapoer.) Not to mention, some people board Wipe Away as well, which is a guranteed way to bounce Meddling Mage. Psionic Blast does deal with Meddling Mage for good, but it can be countered. Bouncing Mage is close to the same thing as killing it, seeming as how you usually bounce it the turn before you are going to combo off. Then you combo off in response to him recasting Meddling Mage. All in all, I don't see the purpose, or the space for a Psionic Blast in the board.

jodawe
02-21-2007, 06:21 PM
So this is the big solution for thresh? Losing points to gobs... Splashing red for janky cards?? It's for the birds! Here's my list I used to top 8 at a local tourney. I played thresh 3 times and lost once. My draws were bad of course :wink: :

4 High Tide
3 Cunning Wish
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
3 Meditate
2 Opt
2 Peek
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
2 Flash of Insight
4 Remand
4 Force of Will
2 Brain Freeze
1 Twincast
11 Island
1 Volcanic
3 Delta
3 Strand

4 Pyroblast
4 Hydroblast
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Wipe Away
1 Brain Freeze

Board plan for thresh... -4 Remand -1 Cunning Wish, +4 Pyroblast, +1 Wipe Away. The one mana less cost of pyroblast makes a huge difference over twincast plus it can kill a mage.

I really don't see the point of starstorm. Can someone enlighten me?

Think Twice is interesting… It seems slow almost too slow and messes up the curve. I may have to test 2 think twice for 2 peeks or go back to the 4 opts. Peek is pretty weak. Who wants to see how many counterspells their opponent has? You already know their hand is full of them.

Bane of the Living
02-21-2007, 06:29 PM
Was Wipe Away really not good enough if played in multiples or something? It seemed fine as long as your problem was one meddling mage, or one chalice. ect..

Ewokslayer
02-21-2007, 06:53 PM
Was Wipe Away really not good enough if played in multiples or something? It seemed fine as long as your problem was one meddling mage, or one chalice. ect..

Well one of the problems with bouncing mage is that you then have to go off next turn. Killing the mage doesn't force your hand as much. It resets the game state and allows you to combo more on your terms and not the threshold players.


So this is the big solution for thresh? Losing points to gobs...
It is pretty much impossible to improve a aggro-control matchup without losing points to an aggro matchup.


I really don't see the point of starstorm. Can someone enlighten me? I believe its primary purpose was against Fish decks and marginal use against Threshold decks. In moderate testing against threshold the ability to wipe the board and reset their clock was very useful. Threshold's plan is generally to drop a few creatures and then make sure that it doesn't draw anymore creatures while it draws counterspells to "hold the fort" Starstorm messes with that plan twofold.
1)If you sucessfully wipe the board they will have no clock for multiple turns.
2)It forces them into a counterwar prior to you using a High Tide (obviously that is only important if you can afford to lose the counterwar i.e. lethal isn't on the board)
However, with all that said. Starstorm is still fairly weak and it will need more testing to determine its full usefulness.

Think Twice is interesting… It seems slow almost too slow and messes up the curve.
Actually it doesn't mess with the curve too much since you will still have 6 turn 1 plays and at two mana is still good for digging for the third land or what have you. Obviously depending on the matchup Impulse or Remand will be better.

jodawe
02-21-2007, 07:00 PM
Starstorm is still fairly weak
I'd leave it at that. Think Twice will require some testing. I just hate missing land drops.

Deep6er
02-21-2007, 07:13 PM
@Tacosnape: Psy blast isn't worth it. I've come to the conclusion that it's best to deal with the Mage uncounterably in order to free up Tide so you can regain control of the stack.

@Jodawe: Out of curiosity, did you just ignore everything I said about REB? Seriously, the hell?

Also, what is the deal with everybody's fascination with a Freeze in the board?

Anyway, Ewokslayer is right about the Starstorm. It's mainly for the Fish type decks that play shitty 'utility' creatures that are small.

Citrus-God
02-21-2007, 08:52 PM
Just get this out, and the fact I played against him; he beat me and top 8ed that tourney way before you played at the DLD3. He probably didnt read about it, and ran it before it was known to him. I dont blame him for not knowing about it before hand.

jodawe
02-21-2007, 08:58 PM
Out of curiosity, did you just ignore everything I said about REB? Seriously, the hell?

Ewokslayer has been testing REB. Personally, I don't see the use.
I did not ignore what you said. Our board plans are very similar. You do +3 Twincast, +1 Echoing truth and 1 Urza's rage. My plan is +4 pyroblast + 1 wipe away.

Your plan has 2 answers to mage 1 uncounterable and 3 sort of counters that cost 2 mana.

My plan has 5 answers to mage 1 uncounterable and 4 cards that can win a counter battle and cost one mana.

Have you even tested pyroblast or did you leave it to ewokslayer? Sure you have the Sudden Shock but wishing for that and casting it seems really slow. If your opponet let's the wish resolve chances are they don't have anymore counters anyway so split second is worthless. Just my thoughts. If you haven't tested pyroblast I suggest you do.

FYI REB is strictly worse than pyroblast.

jamest
02-21-2007, 09:25 PM
What I meant about counterable Mage removal is the fact that if they counter what goes at the Mage, they still have the advantage. With a dead Mage, you have the ability to regain control of the stack with High Tide. Must counters aren't what the deck needs. What the deck needs are ways to kill Mage, because countermagic WHILE GOING OFF isn't what should be worrying. What SHOULD be worrying is the ability to kill High Tide and thus a great deal of our ability to control the stack. I make up for the lack of split second by having a higher density of removal i.e. 4 REB/Pyros or maybe 3 MD 1 SB Wish Target. The main difference is that the countermagic aimed at my removal is now aimed your High Tide. Still, I understand your points and I'll certainly give it a try.


What you're also missing is the fact that I don't side in Sudden Shock. Then, it's not so uncounterable, is it?


I board in Urza's Rage and Echoing Truth in addition to the Twincasts. Urza's Rage has come in handy in a couple of situations, and it's alternate win is amazing against multiple Mages/Stifles/Blessing. You don't think you'll have 7 cards in hand when you combo off without Think Twice do you? Before, it was unlikely because you probably forced a Mage. Think Twice puts you ahead of them on Card Advantage (mostly the Bardo versions) and means that you DO in fact have extra cards to pitch to Force. It's rarely 7 vs 7 even against Hatfield Threshold.I side out Force. I explained this earlier. Not having to pitch cards means I have less need for expensive draw spells.


I think it's kind of funny how your list completely disregards quite a few of the things that I've been adamant about. 4 Wishes is entirely too many which is compunded by the fact that you have Stroke as the ONLY 'draw' spell in your board. Quick correction, there is a Brain Freeze in my sideboard. (-1 Hydroblast +1 Brain Freeze or swap the MD Brain Freeze for a SB Twincast) It's my second wishable draw spell. BTW I really don't like MD Brain Freezes. Pre-combo, I never want to see it.


At this point, I don't even know if we can continue with the discussion. Your list seems to indicate a refusal to believe any of the points that I thought were established as fundamental. 4 Meditates in the main? Why? Did you just not believe me whenever I was talking? I've been against the 4th maindeck Meditate for quite some time and everybody I've talked to has come around and agreed with me. Also, 4 Wishes? Wish is slow against Goblins and doesn't actually count as Tides 4-7. Just so I can begin to understand this, why did you make these changes? I've addressed and refuted these changes before with logical arguments and specific examples from my own play. You asked me to test this. I've already done this. The deck HAD 4 Wishes and 4 Meditates at one point in time (in addition to a Tide in the board). I was extremely unhappy with it. Wish was too often a dead card and I would be sitting on TOO many dead cards because of Force/Land. If you could give me some points as to why you think your list is better than mine, I would appreciate it. I'll discuss the various pros and cons with you, but truly, your list boggles my mind.I'm short on time at the moment so I'll discuss this more tommorow.


Anyway, I suppose I'll keep going. Uh, in your sideboard plan, you lose if they counter your Wishes. How's that? I have everything I need to combo off in the maindeck.


FYI REB is strictly worse than pyroblast.This is easily refuted. Senario: You are holding a REB in hand. Opponent has a Mage out chanting Pyroblast.

Tacosnape
02-21-2007, 09:29 PM
I don't see the point in Psionic Blast in the board. Really, we already have at LEAST two ways to bounce it (Echoing Truth, Chain of Vapoer.) Not to mention, some people board Wipe Away as well, which is a guranteed way to bounce Meddling Mage. Psionic Blast does deal with Meddling Mage for good, but it can be countered. Bouncing Mage is close to the same thing as killing it, seeming as how you usually bounce it the turn before you are going to combo off. Then you combo off in response to him recasting Meddling Mage. All in all, I don't see the purpose, or the space for a Psionic Blast in the board.

So if bouncing a Mage is close to the same thing as killing it, and blue has a similarly uncounterable Mage removal tool in Wipe Away, why exactly did we go to Red again?

jrp
02-21-2007, 10:33 PM
I really like the red splash, and if I knew how to play against TES (aka Not having a bad read in game one/Not being a total ‘tard), I probably would have turned my 12th place finish at GAGG into a top 8 berth. I would like to address a few issues concerning the deck as I am one of the few that were privy to the list before the GAGG tournament.

Rebuild vs. RaR: I prefer RaR, especially against multiple chalices. When playing against multiple chalices you often must use a large amount of resources in order to resolve Wish -> Rebuild/RaR and you MUST to do this whenever your opponent gives you a window (Thinking of Faerie Stompy and any other decks that have both Chalice and countermagic, and may tap at your EOT for a draw spell, etc.). RaR allows you to destroy the chalices on your own turn if given the opportunity without having to worry about having resources available to go off in response to them (the chalices) being replayed during your opponents next turn, as would be the case with Rebuild. In most other matchups/situations, RaR and Rebuild are about even, though Rebuild definitely has an edge against Affinity (I can’t really imagine too many scenarios where Affinity will care too much about you killing a couple of their artifacts on turn 4).

Red Blasts vs. Sudden Shock and Urza's Rage: I obviously haven't tested this at all and just blindly followed Gearhart's advice to play the uncounterable burn. I really like the idea of being able to kill Meddling Mage, as he is my #1 foe. I feel that without the Mage in play most Threshold players are way behind to Solidarity. Red Blasts seem to fulfill a similar purpose (Killing Mage) while also being able to masquerade as one mana counterspells. However, if Mage is not on the table, you should not need the Blasts against Threshold/Other Aggro Control Decks. Generally, when you go off against them (sometime between turns 5 and 7) they will have 2-3 counterspells available. Provided that your mana is not bottlenecked by the stupid Mage yelling about High Tide, you should be able to use the stack to beat Threshold (proper use of Remand, etc)(Note: Unlike Dave, I NEVER board out all of my Remands). I think the same things apply to the HanniFish/Nightmare's HanniFish matchup :-) and 3 color AS (maybe a little less applicable here). P.S. Rage with Kicker, Twincast, THANKS! (I love that shit way too much ;-) )

Starstorm: Hmmmm.....I dunno about this one. I should really playtest against some decks where it could be relevant, but I really just don't feel like it/don’t have the time or playtest partners. I believe some have mentioned the double red as a potential problem, but I don't think it should be an issue. Against decks where you may want to cast Starstorm (Fish, etc) you usually don't have to worry about Wasteland, so you can fetch up both Volcanic Islands. And to be able to cast Starstorm it is very likely that you had to use an untap effect, so you can just float the R from a V.Island when casting Reset. I really can't comment any further on the card because I haven't put in the testing to determine its overall relevance in the matchups that Gearhart believes justifies its inclusion.

No Brain Freeze in the sideboard: :-( Though the freezes in the board were never there strictly as Wish targets, I found myself Wishing for them quite often (Maybe as often as 1 out of 7 or 8 games) I think that if I played differently (better) I would not need the freeze in the board. The biggest challenge for me will be remembering that there is no freeze in the board and playing accordingly.

Think Twice: I boarded this card out almost every round at the GAGG tournament, but with different matchups this card could have been great. I played against IGGy-Pop, Goblins, ReAnimator, Goblins, TES, and IGGy. In each of these matchups speed is important, so at least some of the Think Twices got boarded out (Probably some improper sideboarding on my part). I can see how this card is just ridiculous against Threshold, or any black deck that doesn’t have turn 1 Negator. Plus it’s never that bad, and it just replaced Peek (not that good anyways, just learn to read your opponents people!!!)

Red Splash in General: In the GAGG tournament my Volcanic Islands never screwed me over by getting Wastlelanded (though I think it did happen one time when it was irrelevant). The way I see the red splash can be summed up by: Permanently dealing with problems > temporarily answering problems. When bouncing Chalices and Mages, you have to A) have a way to stop the card from re-entering play (Force) or B) have enough resources to combo when your opponent attempts to re-play the card.

Damn it…I wrote this post while I was at work, but was waiting to post until I got home. Damn you guys and your activity in the thread! So, some of the stuff I said has already been said, but I’m way too lazy to go back and delete irrelevant stuff. I know I have some more shit to say, but this should be enough for now.

Dave/Ewokslayer/Anyone else with experience – Please share any playtesting results/sideboarding plans/general game strategies for the TES matchup.

Bryant Cook
02-21-2007, 10:45 PM
If anyone wants to test TES via MWS feel free to contact me.

jodawe
02-21-2007, 11:10 PM
This is easily refuted. Senario: You are holding a REB in hand. Opponent has a Mage out chanting Pyroblast.
Well you should consider yourself lucky because your opponent is dumb. Anyone that names any blast against solidarity basically just has a grizzly bear in play.

T is for TOOL
02-22-2007, 01:16 AM
Too many people have a habit of throwing around the term 'strictly' when it doesn't apply. When a card is 'strictly' better than another, it means that the first card is better than the second in all possible game situations. To disprove that the first card is strictly better, you only need to show a single gamestate where the second card would be better. Here is one:

Your opponent is tapped out and has a Meddling Mage on the board and a Misdirection in hand. You target the Mage with Pyroblast, and your opponent Misdirects it to an Island. If you had played a Red Elemental Blast instead, you would have successfully destroyed the Mage. In this situation, REB is better than Pyroblast, therefore Pyroblast is not 'strictly' better than REB.

If you insisted on running Mono-U removal, wouldn't Pognify be better than Psionic Blast?

jodawe
02-22-2007, 02:14 AM
Pyroblast can add to your storm count anytime. REB can't... Plain and simple. I know there are some situations when the planets align and the cosmic forces prove that reb is better than pyroblast but the vast majority of the time pyroblast is better. This is still a storm based deck right? I haven't fully adopted the twincast urza's rage win condition yet.:smile:

Tacosnape
02-22-2007, 03:35 AM
Alright, so the rage seems to be the combination of uncounterability and permanent removal, and not simply either of the two.

So can we, at the risk of complete absurdity, splash a second color? Say, Green, for a single Krosan Grip (Uncounterable Chalice removal against Faerie Stompy and the like, also a dart for Confinement in random Blue Confinement builds) and Determined of Bound//Determined (A 2-mana cantrip that by turn four usually baits counters or wins you the game entirely)?

The manabase need not be any riskier to do so. Instead of 6 Fetchlands and 2 Volcanics, The deck could run 7 Fetchlands, 1 Volcanic, and 1 Tropical. This leaves the number of ways to hit a splash color still at 8, while leaving the total dual count at 2 for matches where you want nothing but basic islands.

T is for TOOL
02-22-2007, 03:36 AM
Pyroblast can add to your storm count anytime. BEB can't... Plain and simple.
And I'll reiterate that this effect is not grounds to consider Pyroblast 'strictly' better than REB. The role of either REB or Pyroblast in the SB is not to add to your storm count, but to remove an obstacle that is keeping you from winning the game. A card's performance in a deck is based on how well it performs its primary function.


I know there are some situations when the planets align and the cosmic forces prove that beb is better than pyroblast but the vast majority of the time pyroblast is better.
No. A vast majority of the time the two cards perform identically. A vast majority of the time, the cards are used as intended and they either resolve or they are countered. There are rare cases when a random Pyroblast is the only thing that will push the storm count to a lethal amount, just as there are rare cases where your opponent plays cards that will stop Pyroblast but not REB (such as Misdirection or Divert).

Regarding the card choice, if the primary function of this SB slot is a permanent solution to Meddling Mage, I am inclined to agree with Gearhart that the nearly uncounterable Sudden Shock performs better in this role than both REB and Pyroblast.

JZ23
02-22-2007, 05:26 AM
You target the Mage with Pyroblast, and your opponent Misdirects it to an Island. If you had played a Red Elemental Blast instead, you would have successfully destroyed the Mage. In this situation, REB is better than Pyroblast, therefore Pyroblast is not 'strictly' better than REB.



This isn't a big deal, but they could just misdirect your REB to their Misdirection, effectively countering it.

I think the versatility of Pyroblast outweighs the uncounterable Shock/Rage.

I'm still not sold on Think Twice as it slows the curve too much.

Basic decklist:

cost: spell:
1 --- 4 Brainstorm, 4 Opt
2 --- 4 Impulse, 4 Remand

New decklist:

1 --- 4 Brainstorm, 2 Opt
2 --- 4 Impulse, 4 Remand, 3 Think Twice

The new list seems to lower the turn 3 and 4 wins while increasing the odds of missing an early land drop. The late game is definitely improved, but you should already win if it goes to the late game.

Citrus-God
02-22-2007, 05:35 AM
I think the versatility of Pyroblast outweighs the uncounterable Shock/Rage.

I agree. I know you guys will say Pyroblast because this deck beats control already, but look at Pyroblast as insurance. Very flexible insurance. Because Pyroblast can serve as both removal and a hard counter against a Blue deck can do a lot for you. It's bad in the mirror, but it's amazing against a deck like Threshold. Especially a deck like Hatfield Thresh. Sadly, Thresh decks side in Hydroblasts just for fodder to pitch to FoW, and that comes up to counter your Pyroblasts out of nowhere while your going off.

Eldariel
02-22-2007, 08:23 AM
This isn't a big deal, but they could just misdirect your REB to their Misdirection, effectively countering it.

Nope. REB and Pyroblast are modal, if you choose the 'destroy target blue permanent/permanent if its blue'-alternative, Misdirection can only make it target a different blue permanent/permanent if it's blue, so REB has the Mage dead while Pyroblast effectively gets FoWed.

Ewokslayer
02-22-2007, 08:51 AM
This isn't a big deal, but they could just misdirect your REB to their Misdirection, effectively countering it.
They can only do that if you are counter the Meddling Mage and not destroying it. REB is a modal spell and the mode you choose when you play it can't be changed by Misdirection. So if you are destroying a blue permanent Misdirection has to find another blue permanent for the REB to target.

How's that? I have everything I need to combo off in the maindeck. Except of course for Brainfreeze which you boarded all copies of out.

If anyone wants to test TES via MWS feel free to contact me. I think I would rather stab myself in the eye with a rusty screwdriver than play Solidarity on MWS.

So if bouncing a Mage is close to the same thing as killing it, and blue has a similarly uncounterable Mage removal tool in Wipe Away, why exactly did we go to Red again?I think our point is that bouncing mage isn't as good as killing him. Psionic Blast was monoblue's only way of killing Mage previously and it was expensive as hell to wish for. That is also another reason that Wipe Away is less than wonderful. You end up using so much mana to just bounce the mage that we don't really end up in a position to win the game once we temporarily remove the mage.

If you insisted on running Mono-U removal, wouldn't Pognify be better than Psionic Blast?
The development on the red splash began before Pognify existed. Now that it does it would probably make a good board target for mono-U. It does raise the question as to the worth of uncounterability and the removal of a clock as opposed to accelerating the opponents clock (I assume Pognify will almost always hit a creature smaller than a 3/3.) while maintaining the better manabase.

So can we, at the risk of complete absurdity, splash a second color? I don't think the manabase can truly handle a second splash without either destabilizing the manabase or making it difficult to reliably get the necessary color at the correct time.

The new list seems to lower the turn 3 and 4 wins while increasing the odds of missing an early land drop. The late game is definitely improved, but you should already win if it goes to the late game.
Some speed is lost in order to improve aggro control matchups where you are trying to win mid game. In those matchups we are behind and need a way to beat them.


Edited to fix quote.

Too many people have Usernames that start with J.

Edited again to correct the spelling of Edited.

jodawe
02-22-2007, 09:34 AM
Originally Posted by jodawe
How's that? I have everything I need to combo off in the maindeck.

I didn't say that.

Does thresh run misdirection? I didn't know that.

Lego
02-22-2007, 10:06 AM
They can only do that if you are counter the Meddling Mage and not destroying it. REB is a modal spell and the mode you choose when you play it can't be changed by Misdirection. So if you are destroying a blue permanent Misdirection has to find another blue permanent for the REB to target.

Incidentally, you should probably never counter Meddling Mage with REB or Pyroblast. You should wait, just in case your opponent names something stupid (like the Blast in your hand :wink:)


Does thresh run misdirection? I didn't know that.

Thresh used to run a single MisD. Alas, Metas change and people realize cards suck. It's a purely hypothetical discussion anyway. The point was that there is no card in the game that is strictly better than any other (although there are some that are strictly better in certain matchups.) It's a misused term.

Ewokslayer
02-22-2007, 10:15 AM
Misdirection is still seen in Faerie Stompy boards

SpatulaOfTheAges
02-22-2007, 11:35 AM
Too many people have a habit of throwing around the term 'strictly' when it doesn't apply. When a card is 'strictly' better than another, it means that the first card is better than the second in all possible game situations. To disprove that the first card is strictly better, you only need to show a single gamestate where the second card would be better. Here is one:

Your opponent is tapped out and has a Meddling Mage on the board and a Misdirection in hand. You target the Mage with Pyroblast, and your opponent Misdirects it to an Island. If you had played a Red Elemental Blast instead, you would have successfully destroyed the Mage. In this situation, REB is better than Pyroblast, therefore Pyroblast is not 'strictly' better than REB.

If you insisted on running Mono-U removal, wouldn't Pognify be better than Psionic Blast?

That's incorrect.

As an example; Lightning Bolt is not strictly better than Shock, because if I'm at 3 life and my opponent is playing Misdirection, Bolt kills me and Shock doesn't.

"Strictly better" means that in all plausible situations, one card is better than another. This is fairly vague, since Duals are often consider strictly better than basic lands, although Wasteland is a relatively common problem.

Tacosnape
02-22-2007, 11:58 AM
I don't think the manabase can truly handle a second splash without either destabilizing the manabase or making it difficult to reliably get the necessary color at the correct time.




The manabase need not be any riskier to do so. Instead of 6 Fetchlands and 2 Volcanics, The deck could run 7 Fetchlands, 1 Volcanic, and 1 Tropical. This leaves the number of ways to hit a splash color still at 8, while leaving the total dual count at 2 for matches where you want nothing but basic islands.

How exactly, given that you never ever need two of a given color except for Starstorm, does this destabilize the manabase?

(EDIT:) There's far too much "X is better than Y" or "X isn't worth it" or "X isn't a good idea" without any sort of reasoning behind it for a DTB thread.

Ewokslayer
02-22-2007, 01:01 PM
The manabase need not be any riskier to do so. Instead of 6 Fetchlands and 2 Volcanics, The deck could run 7 Fetchlands, 1 Volcanic, and 1 Tropical. This leaves the number of ways to hit a splash color still at 8, while leaving the total dual count at 2 for matches where you want nothing but basic islands.
Have you considered the effect that an extra Fetchland will have on your life total in aggro matchups? Against decks packing stifle?
In my post I was trying to express my concern about the scenario where you need access to one color but you already have the other dual in your hand or in play. (i.e. the only lands you draw during the early game are Island, Fetch, Trop)Now you are forced to fetch for the Volcanic and can get totally owned by wasteland because you are forced to put both duals in play (generally you can't be that picky about what lands you play) Where as with only a single splash you would have been able to fetch for a basic.

Hopefully that makes sense, because it did in my head.

Additionally, fighting through countermagic to bounce Artifacts and Enchantments tends to be less of an issue due to the types of decks that play them. You should be able to outcounter Faerie Stompy as you have more counterspells and more draw. The same can't be said of decks packing Meddling Mage.

I am liking the idea of Pongify more and more in place of a red splash.
Who cares if it can be countered? You are turning something into a "damned dirty ape!"

Ok, so the ability to quote Charlton Heston movies probably isn't a good reason for card choices.

Bahamuth
02-22-2007, 01:19 PM
I'm sorry to change the subject a bit, but i really have to know this.

I'm having trouble deciding what to board out against various matchups. It is really hard to decide what cards will not be as effective in the upcoming games, especially because I don't always know what they will side in.

In other words: Would anyone be kind enough to list a few board strategys against the tier 1/2 decks?

Ewokslayer
02-22-2007, 01:44 PM
It is hard to provide exact board plans as the board is in constant flux.
Additionally, the board plan depends on how you play the deck, how your opponent plays their deck, and what you think they might bring in.

Usually things that get boarded out.
Goblins
Out
Think Twice
Brain Freeze (1 copy)
In
Hydroblast, Bounce

Gro
Out
Remand
Meditate
In
Bounce
Twincast
Red spell if going with splash

Mirror
Out
usually something different everytime depending on my opponent and if I won game one (I usually do)
Reset
High Tide
Meditate
In
Twincast
Turnabout
Brainfreeze (other people like that alot)
Stifle (damn that was a fun tournament when I had that in the board,
Gearhart: Fetch
Me: Stifle
Gearhart: Crap
Me: Abeyance me now bitch.)

Bahamuth
02-22-2007, 01:59 PM
Alright thanks alot already.

How should i board vs landstill?

Ewokslayer
02-22-2007, 02:09 PM
Landstill (u/w) traditionally boarded in Arcane Lab/Rule of Law and Meddling Mage
So
In
Bounce
Twincast
Brainfreeze (depending see below)
Red spell if available (If you know for a fact that they have Arcane Lab and not Rule of Law you can probably replace your bounce with REB.
Out
I would imagine
Remand (I don't know for certain since I don't think I have played against landstill since Remand became legal.) If you expect Blessing or Stifles (another Landstill favorite) then I would leave a few in.
Brainfreeze (only 1) (it appears on both in and out because I feel it comes down to how aggressive you are going to be, how aggressive the Landstill player will be, the presence of Stifle
1 Turnabout or so
and probably
some amount of opt.

If they go with the new Duck Hunt (U/B) Man Plan (4 Flesh Reavers, 4 Dandan) then obviously slowing your deck down is the last thing you want to do so I would probably replace the think twices with twincasts and a cunning wish with a turnabout or meditate.

Bahamuth
02-22-2007, 02:24 PM
well thanks again :smile:

I just remembered i read some SB strategy here a while ago on how to board against ***** involving boarding out 2 Reset, how about that 1? (If you knwo what I am talking about)

Also boarding in 1 bounce spell seems kinda useless to me. Or do you board in 2, so you can't wish any?

Ewokslayer
02-22-2007, 02:39 PM
The generally policy is to board in one bounce spell and leave the other in board to wish for. That way if your opponent's plan is to stop Wish (i.e. they have a mage on High Tide and Wish) you still can win.

I don't recall ever reading about boarding out Reset against Threshold. I would only do that if I am replacing at least one of the Resets with Turnabout because I expected to be forced to go off in my own turn. Threshold usually can't do that. I only really expect to have to combo in my turn in the mirror and against good burn players. And control players that tap out because they don't think you can do it.

Deep6er
02-22-2007, 04:02 PM
OK, lots of stuf to talk about.

I usually board the following for Landstill; -1 Turnabout, -1 Remand, - Reset, -1 Force of Will, for +3 Twincast, +1 Echoing Truth. That was how I boarded against Scott when we did a little post board Duck Hunt testing (which ended 3-3 and me being exhausted). Against Landstill with Mage, I would board out one Brain Freeze for the Rage too.

@Ewokslayer: You're a big ol' sack of Jerk. GodDAMN that pissed me off. Whatever, I guess that helped me to play around Stifle or some such bullshit.

@Tacosnape: That's a really intriguing idea. I tell you what, give me a bit of time to find a board that I like (that still has 'blasts) and I'll tell you what I think of the dual color splash. Honestly, I hadn't thought to take it so far, but there might be another advantage in doing so. Although, 7 fetches is going to be a bitch.


@JZ23: Actually, with the larger amount of 2 drops, missing the more difficult third land is less likely. Two lands are easy, it's the third that's difficult.

EDIT: Sorry Jodawe, I as mistaking your list for Jamest's list where he only has a single Freeze and sometimes swaps it out for a maindeck Twincast. Weird, usually I don't do that. Sorry.

Tacosnape
02-22-2007, 04:17 PM
Have you considered the effect that an extra Fetchland will have on your life total in aggro matchups? Against decks packing stifle?
In my post I was trying to express my concern about the scenario where you need access to one color but you already have the other dual in your hand or in play. (i.e. the only lands you draw during the early game are Island, Fetch, Trop)Now you are forced to fetch for the Volcanic and can get totally owned by wasteland because you are forced to put both duals in play (generally you can't be that picky about what lands you play) Where as with only a single splash you would have been able to fetch for a basic.

Hopefully that makes sense, because it did in my head.

Additionally, fighting through countermagic to bounce Artifacts and Enchantments tends to be less of an issue due to the types of decks that play them. You should be able to outcounter Faerie Stompy as you have more counterspells and more draw. The same can't be said of decks packing Meddling Mage.

I am liking the idea of Pongify more and more in place of a red splash.
Who cares if it can be countered? You are turning something into a "damned dirty ape!"

1. I have considered the effect the extra fetchland will have. You could also make this argument between the standard six and, say, five. More fetchlands obviously weakens you against Stifle and lowers your life total a little faster, but it also makes Brainstorm deadlier, gives you extra chance early to get two lands down for Remand against things like Sinkhole and Vindicate, and reduces your chances of Meditating into 2-3 lands mid-combo. I actually run seven in my real build (Mono-blue). Stifle has wrecked me a couple of times, granted.

2. If you're facing something with Wasteland, you simply don't fetch the dual ever, unless it's life or death. You're still running the same number of duals in the deck (2). Therefore, if the Tropical wasn't in the deck, the same opening hand you quoted would now be Island, Fetch, Volcanic, and four other cards. In both cases if you're dodging wasteland, you can use the fetch for a basic Island, and you still have the problematic one dual in hand. Also, in both cases where they pack Wasteland (And you weren't aware of it), you're no worse off for fetching that dual unless they've got two Wastelands. You're still going to only get two of those three lands down in both scenarios. Even against Fish decks packing both Meddling Mage -and- Wasteland, You still have to set that Volcanic on the table to kill the mage, so again, unless they catch -double- wasteland, having that Tropical out isn't going to hurt you.

3. You can outcounter and outdraw Faerie Stompy, but you don't always have a lot of time to do so. Again, decks like FS are going to simply start countering the Cunning Wishes, but this is a good thing, as it makes a pre-emptive Cunning Wish draw out a counter (IE, Cunning Wishing when they have no Chalice. Either they counter it, or you grab Krosan Grip or a combo piece. And if you want to force that Counter out no matter what, you can grab Determined also.)

Imagine the following scenario. You're on the play. It's Faerie Stompy's turn, Turn 3. They have a Sea Drake, a Sea Sprite, and a Chrome Mox on the board. You're at 17 (2 fetches, one tag from the Sea Sprite.) Faerie Stompy swings in for 5, knocking you to 12. They then drop a freshly-topdecked Trinket Mage, fetching Chalice of the Void, which they will play next turn. They pass. You suspect they're holding a Force, or at least bluffing at it. You cast Cunning Wish EOT.

FS, assuming it has the Force and isn't bluffing it, can now either counter the Cunning Wish or allow you to get Krosan Grip for the Chalice. If they counter the Wish, you untap, play your land, and hopefully combo off on their face in response to the inevitable Chalice. If not, you take your beating, Grip the Chalice on their next end step, and have another turn (and hopefully 5 lands) with which to work around their counter.

Now, if they hesitate and don't play that Trinket Mage, but have an expression like they -could- play something if they weren't going to hold it back for a Force, you can do the same thing. Cunning Wish. If they counter it, dandy, one less counter. If not, you can grab Determined. Untap, play your land, pass. Before their next combat step, play Determined whether you're holding Tide+Reset or not. If they have a counter, they'll almost have to use it. The difference between using it and not using it is that if they don't use it, you get an extra card. Assuming they counter it, you can then either try and go off or wait until their next turn, depending on the situation and your hand.

The difference between Determined and Twincast in this situation is that Determined aggresively rips counters out of their hand whereas Twincast only assists in the counterwar while they're using the counters, which means you've played something else. It's possible to cast Determined, bait a Force, and then wait a turn to go off.

4. I agree. I'm going to try Pongify in my build, especially since Glowrider's picked up in popularity lately. I'm mostly arguing this green thing in hypotheticals and I prefer to stay blue thus far.

EDIT: This has almost nothing to do with the above, but I find that a Brain Freeze in board is almost never necessary, though this could be because I run three main. I find that Freeze is often my top choice to pitch to Force (though not always), which makes it available as a Cunning Wish target.

jodawe
02-22-2007, 04:42 PM
@Jodawe: If you board out all of your copies of Freeze, you have no outs if you lose all your Wishes.

I don't board out my freezes. I seem to be getting misquoted a lot.

So with all these new modifications what turn do you usually combo out vs thresh? What about goblins?

Pyroblast targets nearly all of faerie stompy's creatures. Turn one sea drake isn't so scary when you play turn one blast.

Ewokslayer
02-22-2007, 05:24 PM
I don't board out my freezes. I seem to be getting misquoted a lot.
Sorry that was my fault. I meant jamest in my earlier post and I corrected it.


2. If you're facing something with Wasteland, you simply don't fetch the dual ever, unless it's life or death. You're still running the same number of duals in the deck (2). Therefore, if the Tropical wasn't in the deck, the same opening hand you quoted would now be Island, Fetch, Volcanic, and four other cards. In both cases if you're dodging wasteland, you can use the fetch for a basic Island, and you still have the problematic one dual in hand. Also, in both cases where they pack Wasteland (And you weren't aware of it), you're no worse off for fetching that dual unless they've got two Wastelands. You're still going to only get two of those three lands down in both scenarios. Even against Fish decks packing both Meddling Mage -and- Wasteland, You still have to set that Volcanic on the table to kill the mage, so again, unless they catch -double- wasteland, having that Tropical out isn't going to hurt you.
You can't use the fetch for a basic if you have need the red mana for something and you have the trop in your hand.
It is probably a minor point but a factor nonetheless.

Tacosnape
02-22-2007, 05:42 PM
You can't use the fetch for a basic if you have need the red mana for something and you have the trop in your hand.
It is probably a minor point but a factor nonetheless.

That's very true. Fortunately, however, except for Fish, you either won't need the red (or green if the situation's reversed) or won't be worrying about Wasteland (Assuming you run an Artifact hitter besides Grip, either RnR or Rebuild). And again, fetching the red won't hurt until they double wasteland you. Which would, of course, just suck fantastically.

Reagens
02-23-2007, 04:19 AM
Ok. So I've been testing the new build yesterday.

Think twice is a bit of a mixed blessing. On the one hand it shines against discard of all sorts. On the other hand when I need to go off fast it's a real pain in the ass. I am convinced that peek wouldn't be much better in said situations but I am really thinking of leaving the lone twincast in.
The fact of not having brainfreeze in the sideboard is also something that hurts. I think I can get passed that by adapting my play style but we'll see in future testing.
The main part of my testing was against a red deck (championship deck finals '98 or '99 from Ben Rubin I believe), and the results were not very well. Since the deck kills on turn 4 most of the time, things needed to go fast and didn't. I think that the speed loss really is significant. There was also the little matter of bad draws which screwed up quite some games. I am not saying it's a bad match up, my point is that in above situation you need more speed.
What are the test results against aggro-control? Is there a significant improval? Does the improved ratio stand when they know what they are facing? In effect that they have to counter the cunninng wish?

Deep6er
02-23-2007, 11:21 AM
Ok. So I've been testing the new build yesterday.

Think twice is a bit of a mixed blessing. On the one hand it shines against discard of all sorts. On the other hand when I need to go off fast it's a real pain in the ass. I am convinced that peek wouldn't be much better in said situations but I am really thinking of leaving the lone twincast in.
The fact of not having brainfreeze in the sideboard is also something that hurts. I think I can get passed that by adapting my play style but we'll see in future testing.
The main part of my testing was against a red deck (championship deck finals '98 or '99 from Ben Rubin I believe), and the results were not very well. Since the deck kills on turn 4 most of the time, things needed to go fast and didn't. I think that the speed loss really is significant. There was also the little matter of bad draws which screwed up quite some games. I am not saying it's a bad match up, my point is that in above situation you need more speed.
What are the test results against aggro-control? Is there a significant improval? Does the improved ratio stand when they know what they are facing? In effect that they have to counter the cunninng wish?

Are you not drawing Force/Remand? Against the faster decks, you're supposed to control, not race. With Think Twice, you can recover from Forces so be a little more aggressive with the Forces. Also, were you not playing 'blasts or something? I've done my share of testing against Sligh type decks and found that I'm still ahead (though not by a wide margin).

Anyway, the plan against Threshold, is to build up a lethal 8-10 card hand (effectively speaking, by holding Flashes in the 'yard and using think Twice to put you to 8) that allows you to beat whatever they have. Usually, this is accomplished turn 7, maybe later given draws and such. Anyway, the testing results have DEFINITELY been improved and I'm exceedingly happy with the results. Yes, even with the knowledge of the splash, it's still effective. You can't really play around uncounterability y'know.

Bahamuth
02-23-2007, 12:12 PM
I'm sorry, but i found 2 more decks I'm not sure how to board against

Vs. artifact based decks like stax or affinity, what do i board?

And vs. tendrils combo, i side out my think twices for twincasts. Is that the right thing to do?

Ewokslayer
02-23-2007, 12:17 PM
Against both decks a bounce spell is usually boarded in for Chalice/3 sphere in case of Stax and for swarm/ Defense Grid/ ETW for Tendrils.
For something like affinity I would think a possibilty would be to board in Turnabout, Meditate, and Twincast for the Think Twices and a Wish or two, as a way to speed up the deck. But that is just a non-tested idea.
Generally, Affinity doesn't require too much in terms of boarding.

Bahamuth
02-23-2007, 12:24 PM
Ok so what to board out for the bounce spell then?

And would it be a good idea to replace the think twices with twincasts vs any aggro matchup?

Thanks for your quick response again by the way, it's like you're always on this site. :smile:

Ewokslayer
02-23-2007, 12:47 PM
Ok so what to board out for the bounce spell then?

And would it be a good idea to replace the think twices with twincasts vs any aggro matchup?

Thanks for your quick response again by the way, it's like you're always on this site. :smile:
Against most decks I either board out a Brain Freeze or a Twincast for a bounce spell.

Generally against most aggro Think Twice is coming out. But the same was true of Peek.


I am.

jamest
02-23-2007, 01:32 PM
How's that? I have everything I need to combo off in the maindeck. Except of course for Brainfreeze which you boarded all copies of out.
Except of course I don't need Freeze in the maindeck to combo off.

Maindeck Freezes, why are they necessary? The only decent reason I've heard so far is that Mage naming Wish preboard is an auto loss (which is true), but that leads me to two points:
1) Preboard, no one names Cunning Wish first (with Mage). It is usually High Tide. Why? Because they don't know that I don't maindeck Freeze. This is a deeper strategic consideration for real life matchups.
2) Even if I include one Freeze maindeck, why the second one? To me, Freeze seems to hurt our ability to combo off. When necessary, I still use the "Freeze myself" method, except I prefer to Wish for it mid combo, since I still need to generate some amount of storm and mana first, which Freeze is poor at helping with.

Here are some other quotes regarding Freeze which leads to my opinion:

I find that Freeze is often my top choice to pitch to Force (though not always), which makes it available as a Cunning Wish target.

Against most decks I either board out a Brain Freeze or a Twincast for a bounce spell.

NANTUKO_SHADY
02-23-2007, 02:22 PM
Except of course I don't need Freeze in the maindeck to combo off.


Maindeck Freezes, why are they necessary? The only decent reason I've heard so far is that Mage naming Wish preboard is an auto loss (which is true), but that leads me to two points:
1) Preboard, no one names Cunning Wish first (with Mage). It is usually High Tide. Why? Because they don't know that I don't maindeck Freeze. This is a deeper strategic consideration for real life matchups.
2) Even if I include one Freeze maindeck, why the second one? To me, Freeze seems to hurt our ability to combo off. When necessary, I still use the "Freeze myself" method, except I prefer to Wish for it mid combo, since I still need to generate some amount of storm and mana first, which Freeze is poor at helping with.

Here are some other quotes regarding Freeze which leads to my opinion:





Ok, I see your point where Brainfreeze can hurt your ability to go off. It sucks major butt to have Brainfreeze, especially both of them, in your opening hand. However, that doesn't merit not running Brainfreeze MD in my opinion. You still need them to ultimately win in the end. Unless you are planning on Stroking your oppoents for 45 cards each game, your wins will involve at least 1 Brainfreeze. This leads to my point that you are relying on Cunning Wishes in multiples to go and nab your Brainfreezes. Keep in mind that you only run 3x Wish, and often times I find myself Cunning Wishing for a crucial Meditate or a key Turnabout. By moving all of your Brainfreezes to the sideboard, you are asking too much of Cunning Wish. Not to mention, I find it not that difficult to get Brainfreezes out of my hand until I need them. Brainstorm/Fetch them away, or just dig past them with draw spells. Either way, I think that removing Brainfreeze from the maindeck is a poor idea.

Tacosnape
02-23-2007, 03:08 PM
Brain Freeze is also solid maindeck in tons of other ways.

1. It can dig into Flash of Insight for a deckstack. This is its single most important function.
2. It can combine with Flash of Insight and Cunning Wish to be a tutor for most any card in your deck.
3. It can, while going off, allow you to play Brainstorm, then let a single copy resolve and roll off either the useless land or the Flash of Insight sitting in your hand. This is one of my favorite tricks to do with it.
4. It can nail Rule of Law, Solitary Confinement, or other things from the top of someone's library in response to an Enlightened Tutor.
5. (See Above) a Mystical Tutor.
6. It lets you combo out quicker with a subpar hand in a tight situation. On one occasion I was playing against Deadguy Ale. We both got a slow start. I got Sinkholed down to two lands (Which he played off a Rit), my opponent got stuck at 2 lands, one of which was a Wasteland. He then went Ritual-Specter while my hand was Tide/Reset/Reset/Impulse/Freeze/Freeze. Rather than gamble at being able to survive a Specter + Additional Disruption if he drew his second swamp (He was holding two more Sinkholes), I decided to go off, hoping Impulse either grabbed me Turnabout/Reset or something cheap to draw into a third Reset. I went Tide/Reset/Reset/Impulse into Turnabout(whee!)/Turnabout/Freeze/Freeze for 51 cards and the win.
7. A lot of players, myself included, -will- Mage for a Cunning Wish first under certain circumstances. Particularly in UBW decks packing Duress, where I -know- you're short of a particular element, either draw or untap, and have the Wish in hand to go get it. I'll also do this if I have a second Mage and am reasonably sure I can get it to resolve, because then I can either name Freeze game 1 and win, or name Tide if it's past game one and the opponent may have maindeck bounce/removal. Or when running 4C Landstill, I'll sometimes do this if I have an Arcane Lab, since my clock in that deck probably won't be fast enough to stop Solidarity from going off even without Tide.

It is hypothetically possible to go down to a single freeze, I suppose. I like having extras, though, so I can pitch it to Force without fear, or let a Stifled one die and simply dig for another one rather than try to hunt up a Remand.

noobslayer
02-23-2007, 05:01 PM
I think if you aren't running Freeze in the MD then you need to be packing 4 Cunning Wish and a random bounce spell, either Chain of Vapor or Wipe Away to really contend with randomness.

Lego
02-23-2007, 09:48 PM
1. It can dig into Flash of Insight for a deckstack. This is its single most important function.

If I'm not mistaken, the single most important function of Brain Freeze is to win the game.

mnellsae
02-23-2007, 11:22 PM
If I'm not mistaken, the single most important function of Brain Freeze is to win the game.


Brain Freeze is also solid maindeck in tons of other ways.

1. It can dig into Flash of Insight for a deckstack. This is its single most important function.


I think he meant single most important function of all the "other ways."

Tacosnape
02-24-2007, 01:46 AM
If I'm not mistaken, the single most important function of Brain Freeze is to win the game.

People play Solidarity to win games? I thought the object was to just play 30+ spells and cause your opponent to put out a hit on David Gearheart.

There is that, though, and I did mean most important "other" function.

Anyway. I'm headed to a local tournament tomorrow. I'm expecting between 10, 12ish people, semi-uncertain meta, probably a goblin, a fish, a survival, a mono black control, an iggy pop/epic storm, and six or seven other random things. And since I'm about 16 cards away from Red Death still, I figured I'd throw together Solidarity with the green splash (or preferrably with both, if I can get somebody to lend me a Volcanic Island) and see if Determined kicks as much ass as I think it might. In a few brief games against various Mage-packing decks, I've found it's really risky, as I tend to bluff a lot with it (Casting it at four or five lands when I can't or don't intend to go off) and I keep thinking I'm going to get called and someone's going to hold a counter back, but they never do. And even if they do and I actually can't go off, it still draws me a card.

Anyhoo, I'll write up a report and such and let you guys know how it works, and then the experts can criticize how badly I played.:cool:

EDIT: Any thoughts on Seedtime being played in the mirror or against decks with 12+ Cantrips?

SECOND EDIT: So, okay, I can't sleep, and I'm reading Determined, and I just -now- realize that in addition to being amazing against counters, it lets you go off through Chalice of the Void for 1. As in, Chalice's trigger can't counter High Tide and company. I am now in the process of increasing my Determined count to 4 and possibly maindecking one.

noobslayer
02-24-2007, 11:48 AM
So Determined seems very enticing. What other cards would a green splash offer this deck?

Bahamuth
02-24-2007, 11:49 AM
So i was playtesting a bit today to prepare for a local tournament coming up next sunday, and i lost 0-5 to Deadguy. Could anyone give me some tips on how to defeat a deck like that.

My list is the standart list with think twice, but without red splash. (I'm too poor to buy vulcanic islands)

NANTUKO_SHADY
02-24-2007, 12:12 PM
So i was playtesting a bit today to prepare for a local tournament coming up next sunday, and i lost 0-5 to Deadguy. Could anyone give me some tips on how to defeat a deck like that.

My list is the standart list with think twice, but without red splash. (I'm too poor to buy vulcanic islands)

You resolve a Meditate.


Seeming as how Deadguy and other black discard decks use all of their gas in the first two to three turns, if you can somehow resolve a Meditate after that, it can repair much of the damage done by your opponent's discard spells. This matchup is when Meditate is the best pre-combo I think.

Tacosnape
02-24-2007, 12:50 PM
You resolve a Meditate.

Seeming as how Deadguy and other black discard decks use all of their gas in the first two to three turns, if you can somehow resolve a Meditate after that, it can repair much of the damage done by your opponent's discard spells. This matchup is when Meditate is the best pre-combo I think.

Sometimes it's not enough, though. Deadguy can be tough, as they attack your land as well as your hand. Be diligent with cracking your fetchlands, and use Brainstorm in response to Duress. As long as they don't explode on you with Ritual/Specter followed by Hymn or Sinkhole and you're Forceless, it's a winnable match, but sometimes Deadguy and Red Death and all their cousins just go Explodo Baggins on you.


So Determined seems very enticing. What other cards would a green splash offer this deck?

My build's also going to test a single Krosan Grip. Beyond that, I did a lot of looking and didn't see anything I immediately thought was worth it. There's a lot of cards that would work in the deck, but not really improve it. Seedtime caught my eye, as did Research//Development, but I don't really think either one's worth it.

Bahamuth
02-24-2007, 01:27 PM
Resolving a meditate was never enough for me. In one match I actually resolved two of them, but then still I wasn't able to combo out before i was killed. Resolving one meditate oftenly doesn't give me anymore than just one combo piece, and with the landdestruction they play and with the clock they have (I know it is not a fast one, but I do need alot of time to recover from alot if discard and laddestruction), I usually can't manage to combo out fast enough.

Tacosnape
02-24-2007, 01:55 PM
Resolving a meditate was never enough for me. In one match I actually resolved two of them, but then still I wasn't able to combo out before i was killed. Resolving one meditate oftenly doesn't give me anymore than just one combo piece, and with the landdestruction they play and with the clock they have (I know it is not a fast one, but I do need alot of time to recover from alot if discard and laddestruction), I usually can't manage to combo out fast enough.

The match will never really be favorable, but you can do a lot of things to minimize the awfulness.

1. When on the play, it's often a good idea to save your Brainstorms for Hymn and Duress, and use Opt/Peek EOT on turn one instead. Brainstorm is an amazing anti-discard weapon that lets you hide your good cards. Hide Meditate first if they don't have a decent threat out, then Tide, then Reset. This obviously changes if you're holding double copies of any one of the big three, based on the situation.

2. Be aware of your land count both in your hand and on the board. If you have 2 land and they Sinkhole you, and you're holding two more, don't counter the Sinkhole. Just Impulse/Opt in response or whatever, dig up the fourth land or whatever else you need, and keep going. You'll want that Remand for next turn's Specter or Hymn. Remember, your goal is to get to four land, which should be enough to go off if you can keep your hand intact.

3. Don't cast the Flash of Insight from your hand unless you're going off, and don't pitch it to a Force if you can avoid it. Let them Hymn it. If they play Gerrard's Verdict or Funeral Charm, all the better.

4. If you have an exact combination of two cards you want them to hit with Hymn, and the combination is Force-Any Blue Card, obviously, Force the Hymn.

5. Unless their clock is outrageous, feel free to Meditate at any time. Going up to eight or nine cards is not a bad thing; it means you'll still have a full hand after a Hymn, and if you have to you can always discard a Flash next turn. Also, if you have three mana open and are planning to Force a spell they play, this is a great time to Meditate.

6. Don't fret or get down on yourself or the deck if you lose the matchup. Black Rit/Duress/Hymn/Specter decks are always going to be problematic, and you will lose. Just focus on playing every round as correctly as possible, and you'll learn from your mistakes and gradually win more often against tougher matchups.

7. Remember the golden rule of Solidarity: There are no golden rules. There are situations where any rule of thumb can be wrong, so do your best to analyze the situation completely before making your play.

Bahamuth
02-24-2007, 02:15 PM
Thanks alot! This is really going to be helpfull.

I was really doubting about the use of Think Twice before I played this matchup, but i really found it was really helpfull, and im definately leaving them in.

I'm sorry to keep asking for help, but I also have trouble deciding whenever to go off playing against controll. Since peek is no longer in the list, how do you guys decide when is the best time?

Tacosnape
02-24-2007, 02:33 PM
Thanks alot! This is really going to be helpfull.

I was really doubting about the use of Think Twice before I played this matchup, but i really found it was really helpfull, and im definately leaving them in.

I'm sorry to keep asking for help, but I also have trouble deciding whenever to go off playing against controll. Since peek is no longer in the list, how do you guys decide when is the best time?

By Control, I assume you mean against blue.

You want to have a lot of land on the board. Six is a good number. It can be done with five, and seven is even better. Secondly, you want the board clear of Meddling Mage.

Ideally, you want a hand consisting of a Tide, a Reset or two, two to three draw spells, and two to three of Remand/Twincast/Force of Will (Or in my case today, Determined).

From there on, I usually drop a Tide. If they counter the Tide and you aren't going to die next turn, I usually attempt to Remand the Tide back to my hand and wait until next turn, as I've now drawn out a counter, saved my Tide, and drawn a card. If they counter the Tide and I -am- going to die next turn, Then obviously I'll either Twincast, Force the counter, or Remand the tide, depending on how many counters I suspect they're holding.

If they don't counter the tide, you have a lot more mana to play with. Make sure to do your Resets early, floating mana, with enough mana open to counter at least twice. You don't always have to counter, either. If your Tide resolves with six lands, and your next spell is Reset with eight floating and they counter it, You can then just cast another Reset or Turnabout and let the Reset die.

A lot of playing here is working out in your head scenarios of "What do I do if they counter ____" and playing them in such an order where you cause your opponent to have to guess at your resources. This is the beauty of Solidarity and one reason why cards like Peer Through Depths and Mystical Tutor never made the cut. Your opponent, if playing Blue, likely has no idea what's in your hand (Excluding decks packing Mage and Duress). As such, they have to guess at your plan and what resources you have to work with.

Try it out. Set up a situation where your opponent has anywhere from 1-4 counters (You don't know how many) and you have a full loaded hand with six mana, but not always the exact same hand (And your opponent doesn't know your hand). Have one person try to go off while the other tries to stop them. Your brain will hurt at first, but after about eight or nine times you'll begin to get the feel of it and countermagic won't be as terrifying anymore.

Bahamuth
02-24-2007, 03:49 PM
Thanks again for such a quick response. I just love this site. :)

I've found another question. Is it a good idea to play think twices but not play the red splash? I've looked back some pages and everyone seemed to only play them in the red version.

solidarity!
02-24-2007, 04:13 PM
I think it is a metagame call of think twice if in your meta is alot of ******** discard and other aggro control i would play think twice as it gives card advantage and helps you to recover from discard a counter war and or other things i am not thinking of right now.


If your metagame is a really fast metagame then i would not go for think twice as peek and twincast gives you more speed sometimes alot more.

So my vision of it i see it as a metagame call.

NANTUKO_SHADY
02-24-2007, 07:30 PM
Although this probably isn't the wisest move, if many of you are really concerned about Deadguy or there is a Deadguy heavy meta where you play I suppose you could consider putting Disrupt back into the board. Back when I ran it, it was phenomenal. It's a very narrow card, but it can be a savage beating when properly used.

ExplosPlankton
02-24-2007, 11:15 PM
Wouldnt divert be more effective against deadguy? Redirect their vindicates/hymns/verdicts/etc. and 2 is harder to pay than 1.

Lego
02-24-2007, 11:31 PM
Wouldnt divert be more effective against deadguy? Redirect their vindicates/hymns/verdicts/etc. and 2 is harder to pay than 1.

Divert doesn't cantrip. That's pretty much the only reason to run Disrupt over Divert. Well, Disrupt also hits Duress. Divert becomes useless mid-combo, where Disrupt draws a card for 2. Although Divert might have some application in control matchups, I think it'd be really bad.

Obfuscate Freely
02-25-2007, 06:54 AM
Disrupt is also a beating against Ritual, which can power out a Specter or something else that makes Divert look silly.

However, the biggest reason I see to run Disrupt over Divert is that Disrupt is so much better against Red Death, against which Divert seems fairly unreliable (they only have Hymn and Sinkhole to hit with it). Since black decks on the whole make up a pretty small segment of most metagames, I think that Disrupt's advantage in versatility will almost always make it more justifiable than Divert.

Tacosnape
02-25-2007, 02:46 PM
The tournament report from yesterday with Determined in Solidarity is up in the Tournament Reports/Announcements Forum.

Regrettably, I never got into many situations where I predicted Determined would be useful. I never played against Blue the entire night, and while two decks were packing Chalice of the Void, I never played against one (Vial Goblins) and the other never drew it against me (B/W Stax). I did get to use it to try to bait out a Pyroblast when I was unsure if my opponent boarded in Blasts or Gaea's Blessing (Turns out it was neither, but the Determined let me know it was safe to go off and would have drawn out the Pyroblast had my opponent been holding it.)

I've been liking the Green splash, though. Determined can make -all- my removal uncounterable, which is nice, though less so than the Sudden Shock. I was going to run the 3-color splash, but I couldn't come across a Volcanic Island to save my life, so I ran U/G, tossed in a Pongify, and was pretty pleased with the results.

Reagens
02-26-2007, 08:13 AM
Are you not drawing Force/Remand? Against the faster decks, you're supposed to control, not race. With Think Twice, you can recover from Forces so be a little more aggressive with the Forces. Also, were you not playing 'blasts or something? I've done my share of testing against Sligh type decks and found that I'm still ahead (though not by a wide margin).

Anyway, the plan against Threshold, is to build up a lethal 8-10 card hand (effectively speaking, by holding Flashes in the 'yard and using think Twice to put you to 8) that allows you to beat whatever they have. Usually, this is accomplished turn 7, maybe later given draws and such. Anyway, the testing results have DEFINITELY been improved and I'm exceedingly happy with the results. Yes, even with the knowledge of the splash, it's still effective. You can't really play around uncounterability y'know.


I was having some gruesome draws that night (first time ever I drawed 4 land out of a meditate). Other then that I myself didn't sideboard while he had 4 blasts. I know it warps the testing, on the other hand the deck he played was very suboptimal considering much of the available card pool wasn't used. And the objective for me that night was test the feel of the new build and how it acts under pressure. If you are aware that you're playing against a fast deck do you mulligan for force or remand? That's a part of solidarity I can't get right, when to mulligan. I am very reluctant to mulligan and possibly the only reason I would do it is when I don't have two lands in my opening. If I have one and a brainstorm or something I might also keep but I have found out it bites me in the ass from time to time.
Why I asked about the ******** match up is because I could imagine them trying to counter the wish instead of the bounce spell. Which buys us a turn (you don't lose a turn playing wish and then get the bounce spell countered). Which gives us a slight edge I imagine, but maybe not enough.

jazzykat
02-26-2007, 11:01 AM
I was having some gruesome draws that night (first time ever I drawed 4 land out of a meditate).

I saw one guy do that at a local tournament. It does happen I guess.

Bahamuth
02-27-2007, 07:01 AM
So I've got a pretty big tournament coming up (about 50 people) and I'm taking Solidarity for the first time. :smile: I'm really looking forward to it.

barron
02-27-2007, 07:06 AM
I hope you have been practicing

Anusien
02-27-2007, 03:57 PM
I understand how silly this might sound, but I am completely serious, so only respond seriously please.

How good is Force of Will in the deck anymore? It's occurred to me how bad counters are in general, since there are few spells worth countering at the cost of two cards in hand. Everytime I play the deck in testing, I keep not casting Force of Will because there's nothing scary. I think I've forced a key Buried Alive or whatever, but most of the time, whatever threats the opponent has isn't scary. Here is a list of what seem like common, Force of Will worthy spells:

Chalice of the Void at 1, 3
Meddling Mage
Sinkhole
Hymn to Tourach (maybe)
Isochron Scepter (maybe)
Smallpox
Devastating Dreams
Armageddon
Umezawa's Jitte
Sword of Fire and Ice
Counterspell
Force of Will
Goblin Warchief
Goblin Piledriver

There are probably some more that I'm missing, but that feels like a representative sample. It really feels like you could get extra strength in the deck by replacing Force of Will with a non-pitch counter. It has the potential to disadvantage you in counterwars with Threshold, but at the same time, you're not giving up an extra card every time you get into that fight.

Anyway, my suggestion is Spell Snare. The only relevant cards that it does not answer are Sword of Fire and Ice (too slow anyway), Force of Will (which is harsh, but you still have 8 counters), Chalice of the Void at 3 (aren't they going for 1 first anyway?), Goblin Warchief (Sideboarded BEBs anyway) and Armageddon (nice 4 mana spell. Remand?) I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts. It seems like most of the time, the extra card in your hand is better to fight against Force of Will anyway. This puts you in a better position to win the initial fight over Meddling Mage.

Other options would be things like Memory Lapse, which seem less good.

Deep6er
02-27-2007, 04:46 PM
I understand how silly this might sound, but I am completely serious, so only respond seriously please.

How good is Force of Will in the deck anymore? It's occurred to me how bad counters are in general, since there are few spells worth countering at the cost of two cards in hand. Everytime I play the deck in testing, I keep not casting Force of Will because there's nothing scary. I think I've forced a key Buried Alive or whatever, but most of the time, whatever threats the opponent has isn't scary. Here is a list of what seem like common, Force of Will worthy spells:

Chalice of the Void at 1, 3
Meddling Mage
Sinkhole
Hymn to Tourach (maybe)
Isochron Scepter (maybe)
Smallpox
Devastating Dreams
Armageddon
Umezawa's Jitte
Sword of Fire and Ice
Counterspell
Force of Will
Goblin Warchief
Goblin Piledriver

There are probably some more that I'm missing, but that feels like a representative sample. It really feels like you could get extra strength in the deck by replacing Force of Will with a non-pitch counter. It has the potential to disadvantage you in counterwars with Threshold, but at the same time, you're not giving up an extra card every time you get into that fight.

Anyway, my suggestion is Spell Snare. The only relevant cards that it does not answer are Sword of Fire and Ice (too slow anyway), Force of Will (which is harsh, but you still have 8 counters), Chalice of the Void at 3 (aren't they going for 1 first anyway?), Goblin Warchief (Sideboarded BEBs anyway) and Armageddon (nice 4 mana spell. Remand?) I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts. It seems like most of the time, the extra card in your hand is better to fight against Force of Will anyway. This puts you in a better position to win the initial fight over Meddling Mage.

Other options would be things like Memory Lapse, which seem less good.

Not to seem like a dickhead or anything, but you remember Goblin Lackey is the only out for Goblins to go faster than me right? Forcing Lackey is rather important. Also, mana is a big deal. While Spell Snare SEEMS good, it's inevitably going to interfere in matchups where you need the mana really badly. Also, Mage is less scary now, but 'blasts are also irritating. Force of Will is just too effective at stopping EVERYTHING. Trust me, I've been looking for replacements, but nothing deals with anything that might come up as well as Force does. Seems to me like a necessary evil.

Tacosnape
02-27-2007, 08:22 PM
Not to seem like a dickhead or anything, but you remember Goblin Lackey is the only out for Goblins to go faster than me right? Forcing Lackey is rather important. Also, mana is a big deal. While Spell Snare SEEMS good, it's inevitably going to interfere in matchups where you need the mana really badly. Also, Mage is less scary now, but 'blasts are also irritating. Force of Will is just too effective at stopping EVERYTHING. Trust me, I've been looking for replacements, but nothing deals with anything that might come up as well as Force does. Seems to me like a necessary evil.

QFT. Force of Will is amazing sauce in this deck. It stops every piece of Anti-Solidarity tech in existence except Trickbind, Angel's Grace, and Gaea's Blessing, none of which are particularly making the deck cower in fear.

Force of Will also counters another nifty little spell called FORCE OF WILL. This tends to get thrown at Solidarity a lot. While you can Remand/Recast(And Recycle!), or Twincast the counters, or start a new spell chain, or just cast Determined, the easiest solution is and always has been to just Force back.

hi-val
02-28-2007, 09:49 PM
I find that I rarely FOW in the deck when testing. I could see dropping one and going to 3. I like extra Twincasts in the maindeck as well, I'm running 2 currently and one Brain Freeze and I don't feel the downsides of either (yet?).

Also, I don't know if this is old news but if you're playing against Chalice at 1, you can always Twincast your High Tide and it will get through the Chalice.

NANTUKO_SHADY
02-28-2007, 09:59 PM
I find that I rarely FOW in the deck when testing. I could see dropping one and going to 3.

I don't know about this one. If you cut FOW to three, you are essentially taking away one of the strongest aspects of the card. Think about it. You want 1x Force of Will in your opening hand generally, especially against goblins. Many decks on the play will go retarded against you, and it is nice to have some form of protection before you drop a land. Cutting FOW to 3 would decrease your chances of having an early FOW, which is in my opinion, where it is at it's best.

noobslayer
02-28-2007, 10:38 PM
I think Herbig was considering this change sometime KDLD II. I discussed it with him, and he said if even it got cut from the main, a play set would be present in the board. I think the main deck slots that would've been some combination of Twincast, Brainfreeze, and Peer through depths. Don't quote me on it however.

Tacosnape
02-28-2007, 11:04 PM
I find that I rarely FOW in the deck when testing. I could see dropping one and going to 3. I like extra Twincasts in the maindeck as well, I'm running 2 currently and one Brain Freeze and I don't feel the downsides of either (yet?).

Also, I don't know if this is old news but if you're playing against Chalice at 1, you can always Twincast your High Tide and it will get through the Chalice.

I had never actually thought about this. Amazing how I learn something new with this deck every day. Chalice unfortunately will still kill both Brainstorm, Opt, and subsequent Tides, making going off an inconsistent thing, but not an impossible one. I'm pretty set with Determined for powering through Chalice.

I Force very aggressively. If I don't anticipate having to go off through Counters / Weird Hate, I'll counter anything that buys me time. I Force Lackeys. I Force card draw. I Force Troll Ascetics. If I'm just Forcing for tempo and not for any real need, I'll usually pitch other Forces first, followed by Brain Freeze.

Spells that do awesome shit for 0 mana in Magic are Good. See Force of Will, Pyrokinesis, Tormod's Crypt, sometimes Chalice of the Void, etc. Force is the cream of the crop. I can't imagine ever not packing four.

hi-val
03-01-2007, 01:30 AM
I heard the following breakdown once:

You run one copy of a card if you plan on tutoring for it or want it lategame.

You run two copies if you want to draw one in the midgame.

You run three copies if you want one in the opening hand or early game.

You run four copies if you need it in the opening hand and/or plan on casting it twice.

With 3 FOW, I think you can safely assume that you will have one in the opener or close to it. I think you run 4 when you always want to see them and want to see multiples, which I honestly don't want with the deck. I'm not sure that the marginal advantage of one more different card main is better or worse than the marginal loss of going from 4 to 3.

I've heard from people that cut FOW from the main and replaced with Twincast that the Twincasts make the deck combo out on turn 3 a lot more but you also have situations where you lose to stuff like Lackey. So it's a hard call, I think. I'd rather have Twincast against control decks and FOW against Goblins-heavy environments.

Tacosnape
03-01-2007, 02:56 AM
I heard the following breakdown once:

You run one copy of a card if you plan on tutoring for it or want it lategame.

You run two copies if you want to draw one in the midgame.

You run three copies if you want one in the opening hand or early game.

You run four copies if you need it in the opening hand and/or plan on casting it twice.

With 3 FOW, I think you can safely assume that you will have one in the opener or close to it. I think you run 4 when you always want to see them and want to see multiples, which I honestly don't want with the deck. I'm not sure that the marginal advantage of one more different card main is better or worse than the marginal loss of going from 4 to 3.


There are three problems with this whole assessment.

1. You can pitch a second Force of Will to a first Force of Will. I do this all the time.

2. You can and often will cast Force twice or more. I recently played a game where I Forced a Mage and then Forced their Force, then next turn Forced another Mage after Meditating back to life. The skipped turn didn't matter, as the board was entirely clear and I had my cards back. I went off a few turns later after snatching Determined with Cunning Wish as a safeguard.

3. That entire assessment of the number of copies of a card you should run is vague, uninclusive, narrow, and doesn't factor in cards like Cunning Wish. It's not necessarily -wrong-, per se, in fact it's a very good outline as long as you recall that it's a guideline, and not a rule. There's always more to the situation.

To illustrate the above point, let's learn a new term called a PVR, which stands for Power Versus Redundancy. PVR can't really be measured in mathematical terms, but it's a vague estimation of how strong a card is in a deck versus how useful it is to draw additional ones. Basically, the rule of PVR is as follows:

Any card, in any deck, has a different PVR than the same card in any other deck, any other card in the same deck, or any other card in any other deck.

A great example of this entire concept is Trinisphere in Stax. Trinisphere, by your above guideline, should be run as a 3 of. Yet many Stax builds feel Trinisphere turn 1 is so incredibly powerful that the deck runs 4.

Likewise, Rotting Giant in Red Death only appears in multiples of 3 due to the fact that its Redundancy is thought to be slightly too high to run four. I've often cast Rotting Giant twice and beat down with the pair of them, you just don't want the giants too early and you don't want to see three.

Applying this concept to Force of Will, Force has an -insanely- high power in exchange for a slightly high Redundancy which is made slightly higher based on the fact casting Force makes you get rid of a card.

You can't safely assume you'll have a Force in the opening hand with 3. Or even 4, for that matter. Solidarity isn't a deck that can afford to Mulligan with too much alacrity, as the card advantage is minimal (Although I did manage to go off turn four after Mulliganing down to three in a tournament last Saturday, this certainly wasn't by choice.) In certain matches you will -need- the Force in your opening hand to survive. 4 gives you a better chance than 3.

Force also isn't as redundant as it seems. Force pitching to itself drops the redundancy drastically, and Meditate can recover from a double Force with ease. As long as I don't see three Forces in my opening hand or off a Meditate, I'm good.

Deep6er
03-01-2007, 06:54 AM
I find that I rarely FOW in the deck when testing. I could see dropping one and going to 3. I like extra Twincasts in the maindeck as well, I'm running 2 currently and one Brain Freeze and I don't feel the downsides of either (yet?).

Also, I don't know if this is old news but if you're playing against Chalice at 1, you can always Twincast your High Tide and it will get through the Chalice.

What are you testing against? I find that Force of Will has been fantastic for me in testing, and it's the best way to defend against the Randomness that is Legacy. Don't get me wrong, I hate seeing Force while going off too, but the necessities of protection outweigh the frustration of seeing it while going off. Also, don't you say that you test 'double fisted'? That detracts quite a bit from Force's power as you know exactly what is in 'their' hand, and indeed, even 'their' strategy. I can see how Force would be bad for you to see. Don't get me wrong though, I've certainly spent a LONG time trying to figure out if the deck could play just 3, but in the end it was to no avail. I believe Force (at least for the foreseeable future) MUST be in the deck as a four-of.

Also, we knew about the Chalice trick (I brought it up before) but apparently some of us weren't reading (I'm looking at you Tacosnape). Although, I guess it doesn't hurt to remind people of it.

hi-val
03-01-2007, 12:26 PM
Tacosnape, all of your examples back up what I'm talking about. Stax ran 4 Trinisphere because it *needed* it in the opening hand to be a blowout. Red Death runs 3 Giants because it doesn't need one early but wants one early and can function with drawing 2 of them.

My essential question is: does Tide WANT FOW in the opening hand or does it NEED FOW in the opening hand? I don't know the answer.

And Deep6er, in my recent testing versus Goblins and Landstill, I have found that I do want FOW but I don't need it, and past about the first two turns in Goblins' case, I usually try to shuffle my FOWs back and I definitely don't want to be drawing more.

I am also really, really hot on only 1 maindeck Brain Freeze, but I think that may be my Meandeck roots showing.

noobslayer
03-01-2007, 12:46 PM
The only problem I see with running Determined is once it resolves it means one of two things. You either A) Now have to full combo off into one large brainstorm, or B) You need to find two smaller brainfreezes. This because Remand is now only good for their spells, and you can't super bounce your own to generate large amounts of brainfreeze copies.

Tacosnape
03-01-2007, 01:10 PM
Also, we knew about the Chalice trick (I brought it up before) but apparently some of us weren't reading (I'm looking at you Tacosnape). Although, I guess it doesn't hurt to remind people of it.

(Looks Shameful) I shall strive to do better in the future, Sensei.


The only problem I see with running Determined is once it resolves it means one of two things. You either A) Now have to full combo off into one large brainstorm, or B) You need to find two smaller brainfreezes. This because Remand is now only good for their spells, and you can't super bounce your own to generate large amounts of brainfreeze copies.

That's very true, but I still haven't had much problem with this. For one, I board some number of Remands for Determined. (I've gone back up on Twincasts since my report when I figured this out, as I'd rather have Twincast/Determined against Blue-based control) For two, most matches where you need it, you'll have ample number of lands with which to combo off.

It doesn't make Remand dead, per se, it just shuts off the Brain Freeze trick. It turns Remand into 1U, Draw a card. Which, if you're simply digging, isn't all that bad. Just make sure you have a Force for Stifle before throwing the lethal Freezes.

I do, however, see where this might be a problem in certain situations and possibly enough to discount Determined. I'll test it out some more.

(EDIT) Has anyone tried Jilt in the Blue/Red version?

hi-val
03-01-2007, 04:44 PM
Jilt looks pretty interesting, but mainly I'm posting to note that I think Jilt has the weeniest flavor text ever. I can only imagine that quote as a whine.

Reagens
03-02-2007, 04:53 AM
Some testing results from yesterday. All games were pre-board.

First against two versions of TES.
Two things really. The only games you lose are those with a first turn 0/1 green creature that says you can't play any spells anymore when you got attacked by it. One of the two decks had the little bugger and I went 5-3 against it.
Second thing. Try to get force in your opening hand. If you can force them when they have a tutor on the stack and a cracked lions eye diamond your safe for at least a turn or two. It sort of show I think with the above discussion in mind that force is a definite 4-of for the randomness you can find in legacy.
Second against blue-green madness (the deck that won in Japan)
These were fun games. I found out that when we both didn't really know the match-up solidarity was heavily favored. Mostly because my opponent waited 'till the very end to counter. After that things were about equal. I wished two times for sudden shock which definetly bought me some time. I was surprised at the amount of counters that were thrown at me.
Finally I would like to add that I am really considering to switch 1 twincast and 1 think twice sb and mb. I understand the value of think twice against discarding strategies but I think the versability of twincast is better.

Tacosnape
03-02-2007, 01:54 PM
Second against blue-green madness (the deck that won in Japan)
These were fun games. I found out that when we both didn't really know the match-up solidarity was heavily favored. Mostly because my opponent waited 'till the very end to counter. After that things were about equal. I wished two times for sudden shock which definetly bought me some time. I was surprised at the amount of counters that were thrown at me.
Finally I would like to add that I am really considering to switch 1 twincast and 1 think twice sb and mb. I understand the value of think twice against discarding strategies but I think the versability of twincast is better.

I've always felt that when my opponent has a decent clock on the board I do worse when they counter my early cantrips than anything. It seems like a risky strategy, but it's worked against me. Sometimes I have the trilogy sitting in hand, but more often than not I'm left trying to dig without much time to do so.

Bane of the Living
03-03-2007, 08:13 AM
Also, we knew about the Chalice trick (I brought it up before) but apparently some of us weren't reading (I'm looking at you Tacosnape). Although, I guess it doesn't hurt to remind people of it.

Its difficult to find tricks like this mentioned throughout a thread now 1200 posts large. Perhaps its time for you to re-write the primer. Its imo obsolete, the decklist looks completely different and the matchup details are hardly relevant anymore. Im sure you could devote a space to mention many great tricks the deck can make.

noobslayer
03-03-2007, 11:18 AM
I whole heartedly agree, as I believe this is without a doubt the most discussed deck on these forums.

Bahamuth
03-04-2007, 01:36 PM
So i've played a locat tournament today with Solidarity for the first time. Here are my results:

Game 1 vs. Life.deck

This sure was a good matchup for me. I won game 1 easy. I actually lost game 2 because I was too stupid to expect a Blessing in his deck. I won game 3 fortunately playing around Blessing correctly.

Game 2 vs. Pikula

I wasn't really looking forward to this matchup. It was played by a really annoying kid (I think I actually told him about the deck which made him play it)
game 1 I lost without lands and cards in hand. Game 2 I actually won, thanks to 3 brainstorms and a meditate. I lost game 3 too, thanks to his turn 1 ritual ritual duress hym hym.

Game 3 vs. Solidarity

I had to play against the only other Solidarity deck around. The player who piloted it was a much better player than me, so I actually lost it 0-2

Game 4 vs. Ichorid

I won both games pretty easy. He tried to cabal therapy me in game 2, but missed my tide thanks to brainstorm.

Game 5 vs. Soldiers

This was also pretty easy for me. The girl (:confused: ) who played it didnt know a thing about my deck. I won game 1 and game 2 too, because I was able to keep her defense grid off the table with 3 remands.

I played 3-2, so I think i did well.

Deep6er
03-04-2007, 10:16 PM
Its difficult to find tricks like this mentioned throughout a thread now 1200 posts large. Perhaps its time for you to re-write the primer. Its imo obsolete, the decklist looks completely different and the matchup details are hardly relevant anymore. Im sure you could devote a space to mention many great tricks the deck can make.

Yeah, that's a pretty valid point. However, the problem (besides my extreme laziness) is the fact that I'm pretty skittish about setting things down in stone. With something like that, it's really easy to misunderstand the basic values of certain matchups when the opponent is aware of your strategy. I think that if the opponent knows how your planning on acting/playing, that's going to definitely hinder some of your advantages as the versatility of the deck is one of it's primary strengths. However, knowing that other people sometimes play poorly because of a misunderstanding in the matchup, I will look into remaking the primer (with Ewokslayer's help). Although, in my defense, I DID make a matchup analysis. So it's not like I've left you guys in the cold when it comes to matchups. One other point is the fact that the primer still has relevant, if basic, information on how to play the deck, and is still a worthwhile starting point if combined with the information provided in this thread. It's not out of the question to expect them to do some research is it?

Tacosnape
03-05-2007, 01:55 AM
Reading the primer and absorbing all of the tricks and intricacies of the deck are two different things. I've gotten pretty good with the deck over a year or so, but I'd imagine a lot of people on this thread are better and I still learn new things and see new openings to get better with it. I don't think I ever had the situation honestly come up with the Chalice where I had the Twincast and the Tide in my hand. Or if I did, it's possible I just bounced it instead.

I've started taking notes of everything I do that's somewhat tricksy or sneaky. Even if it's fantastically simple stuff. Just so I can glance back after awhile and keep note of all the bizarre and situational plays I've made. Today, for instance, I hit a stall against a black Tendrils/Contract/IGG deck after getting Duressed three times, Forcing two attempts to go off, and drawing every land -ever-. With seven lands out and only Reset/Cunning Wish in hand, My opponent attempted Infernal Contract and I Cunning Wished for Twincast, Twincasted it, drew the Tide and some draw, went Tide/Reset with the other two lands, played a bunch of spells, Freezed his library away, and let his own Contract kill him. I have no idea why exactly I'm taking notes of this, but I figure it can't hurt.

solidarity!
03-05-2007, 05:14 AM
I woke up at 8 in the morning and started to make some breakfast and showered and away i was.I arrived at the library waiting for a friend (he plays burn) I brought some chian lightnings for him to borrow then we got at the tournament,Suprisingly we were the first one there and later on at 10:30 douwe came(pro player) Then at 11:15 There were 13 people and the tournament started.

Round one
Andy the judge was shouting the pairings and guess what?

Bye!!!!!!!!

I got a first round bye and i explored the metagame.

I saw rifter with abeyance in the sideboard and pithing needles(not that pithing needle does much against me.
I saw landstill with zur's weirding.
Red ********.
White black ********.
Tradewind survival(played by douwe).
Nathan with burn.
Sligh.
A turboland deck.
Tog.
Dragonstorm.
Affinity.
And another deck i do not remember.
And me!

Round 2

Against marcel with tog.

Game 1
I take a mulligan to 5 and he to 6,He got manascrewed and i won with ease.

Game 2
I got my combo starting but i made one mistake where i could ave won the game he had tog he was attacking i had only a lethal freeze my mistake was i need to let him attack then eot freeze.

Game 3
I combo,playing tide in response he fire/ice me tide he fire/ice my volcanic island i tap it for blue i let it resolve then i play a reset he red elemental blasts it i play another reset it resolves and i combo off in happiness.

2-1

Round 3
Against Allard with turboland

Game 1
I combo off as usual his deck was a bit slow.

Game 2
I got mana problems i seonc turn impulse no land he watses my volcanic island and later he won.

It was 1-1 there were 5 minutes left.

Round 4
Oswin with affinity

game 1
i counter a atog and i combo off not really a hard matchup.

Game 2
I let cranial plating resolve he attacks i am on 9 life or so then next turn in his draw step after he draws a card i combo off and my como workes =).

2-0

Round 5
Against Douwe with Tradewind survival.

Game 1
There is not really much going on game one i combo off he has 1 counter.

Game 2
I made a mistake of playing impulse too early and a tradewind rider resolves with anger in the grave and i lose.

1-1
We had 10 minutes left and i was tired so a draw.


Round 6
Bart with black white green blue ********!

Game 1
He plays some creatures i was to combo and he has too many counters.

Game 2
I have 5 land he has 1 mongoose and 1 enforcer and he double dazed his loaming shaman he attacks with two tresholded creatures i go to 8 then i draw another untap spell and i got flash of insight in the grave,i pass then in his draw step after he draws a card i play tide he has no counters! tide turnabout my land play flash he stifles my flash i call judge and he sais it is a special action so my flash resolves and i combo off!!!!!!

Game 3
At the end i combo off finally no lethel damage or whatsoever then at the and i combo off with twincast stroke and he has meddling mage on brain freeze and i did stroke aware of the dangers because if he sees a call he scoops immidiatly i noticed it on his play style so i did it and won i could have gone for freeze tough getting wish chain of vapor but next time i won't do the stroke thingy.

2-1

And i won the whole tournament!

NANTUKO_SHADY
03-05-2007, 02:46 PM
Game 3
At the end i combo off finally no lethel damage or whatsoever then at the and i combo off with twincast stroke and he has meddling mage on brain freeze and i did stroke aware of the dangers because if he sees a call he scoops immidiatly i noticed it on his play style so i did it and won i could have gone for freeze tough getting wish chain of vapor but next time i won't do the stroke thingy.



What was your opponent's logic as to why they named Brainfreeze with Meddling Mage and not High Tide?

solidarity!
03-05-2007, 02:51 PM
I have literally no idea after the game he was talking to himself i should have named reset no idea why tough.

mnellsae
03-05-2007, 06:13 PM
This may be pretty noob of me, but what's the difference in naming Brainfreeze vs. High Tide? I mean, both can keep you from executing your combo, right?

z38gm
03-05-2007, 06:17 PM
If someone names high tide you cannot get an extremely high storm count and generate tons of mana without dealing with the mage first, your engine is turned off. If they name brainfreeze you are free to do whatever you want then wish for bounce deal with mage then freeze them.

Against combo its always best to turn off their engine not their kill.

Eldariel
03-05-2007, 06:27 PM
This may be pretty noob of me, but what's the difference in naming Brainfreeze vs. High Tide? I mean, both can keep you from executing your combo, right?

Brain Freeze doesn't prevent you from going off, so you can get billion mana and draw Cunning Wish and just bounce the Mage. Naming High Tide slows you down from going off. Oh, he can also just Stroke you out. So no, naming Freeze isn't any good unless you can at the very least also name Cunning Wish with another, and are playing G1 or something like that.

Bahamuth
03-08-2007, 11:35 AM
My friend has recently started playing Solidarity, and he already thinks he has made some major improvements on the standart build. First of all he thinks it is a good idea to play 1 Reset sideboard, and he plays 3 Rewind mainboard.

What do you guys think of this?

Ewokslayer
03-08-2007, 11:57 AM
I prefer the Turnabout in the board over Reset because it is more flexible.
If I want a fog, I grab a fog; if I want a Mana Short, I grab a Mana Short; If I want to go off in my own turn, I can do that too.

Rewind, Why?
Spending 4 mana to counter a spell kinda sucks. It can't be used when comboing unless you are planning on countering your own spells. In a counterwar it costs 4, draining you of your mana and giving the opponent a clear area of attack (i.e. Counter their untap effects) because one of them you know sucks.

Taurelin
03-08-2007, 12:06 PM
First of all he thinks it is a good idea to play 1 Reset sideboard

People have tried to put all parts of the combo pieces in the SB. Many put 1 Meditate, 1 Tournabout there, some have even tried High Tide. The disadvantages are always the same. You reduce the chance of finding them "the normal way" via Meditate, Impulse, Flash or Brainstorm, and you become much more dependent on Cunning Wish than you already are. You only have 3 of them, a maximum of 4. And often they are reserved for getting Bounce or Stroke.

Of course, it's nice to have Meditate in the SB and Tournabout as well, in case of emergency mid-combo. The keyword is "mid", since at the beginning you simply need a solid amount of mana. And Reset is the card that creates it early in the combo. Therefore, it doesn't seem such a good idea to me to rely on 3cc to get it in that situation.



and he plays 3 Rewind mainboard.


Instead of what?

And what does he counter with that? 1st turn Lackey? 2nd turn Sinkhole? 3rd turn Rule of Law? A 4th turn Counterspell on High Tide?

The only use for it I can think of is countering something nasty in the middle or at the end of the combo (Gilded Light anyone?). But usually the disruption happens immediately after your first High Tide. By then you don't have 4 extra mana.

Or you can counter one of your own spells to create an additional untap-effect. In this case I consider it a suboptimal win-more strategy,

Generally, you have other counters that do a better job (Force for free, Remand with cardadvantage).

Best regards to your friend, but "major improvements" seems an exaggerated claim.

barron
03-08-2007, 03:19 PM
Solidarity is one of the decks where innovations that seem fantastic on paper really, really, blow in practice, more so than in most decks. Mystical tutor seemed really good to me because it all but guaranteed a 4th/3rd turn combo, wven with the card advantage, but as soon as I played thresh with predict I chucked it. The same would be said for rewind and the SB reset. I don't know if you friend has, but he should try them against thresh....then he will see why it isn't done. I can't remember the last time i lost a match to thresh after my opening hand has two resets.

Tacosnape
03-08-2007, 04:04 PM
Solidarity is one of the decks where innovations that seem fantastic on paper really, really, blow in practice, more so than in most decks.

QFT. The more I vanilla down my lists the better the deck seems to do. I'm still having a love-hate relationship with Determined (Rather, love with Determined, hate with drawing Tropical Islands in my opening hand every time I ever play Goblins.)

mnellsae
03-08-2007, 04:44 PM
Mystical tutor seemed really good to me because it all but guaranteed a 4th/3rd turn combo, wven with the card advantage, but as soon as I played thresh with predict I chucked it.

Has anyone tried Mystical Teachings as a tutor? I know it's expensive, but it doesn't have the card advantage problems of Mystical Tutor. Like Mystical Tutor, it can still search for any card in your deck...except land.


Well, the more I think about it, it's just a more expensive Cunning Wish... what do you guys think?

NANTUKO_SHADY
03-08-2007, 04:55 PM
Has anyone tried Mystical Teachings as a tutor? I know it's expensive, but it doesn't have the card advantage problems of Mystical Tutor. Like Mystical Tutor, it can still search for any card in your deck...except land.


Well, the more I think about it, it's just a more expensive Cunning Wish... what do you guys think?



This seems like a poor idea for a few reasons.


1.) It costs 4 mana, which is slightly too expensive for my tastes. Cunning Wish at 3 mana is already mana-intensive enough. Against Goblins and other really fast agrro, Mystical Teachings would be horrible. With mana-disruption via Port and Wasteland, the "most powerful" deck in the format can kill you far before you can ever cast Mystical Teachings.

2.) Cunning Wish seems fine, as you do have a draw spell (Meditate) and an untap spell (Turnabout) in the sideboard, I assume. I don't know why you would want to add Mystical Teachings, unless you are concerned about having the proper cards to go off, which is what Brainstorm, Opt, Impulse etc. are for.

3.) You can't flash it back. Unless you are planning on splashing black, which would be a poor choice in my opinion, that card is dead after you cast it. One reason many Type 2 decks abuse the card is because they DO have the ability to flash it back. This card is just waaaaay to mana-heavy.

4.) I can't think of a card that would be worth cutting from the MD for Mystical Teachings. If you can think of a valid choice and pose an arguement then I shall def. listen.


I'm not sure as to why you feel another tutor (Mystical Teachings) is necessary, but I really think the card is just too slow for the rewards it gives us. Goblins would really step on our faces if we had this card in hand.

mnellsae
03-08-2007, 05:02 PM
If you can think of a valid choice and pose an arguement then I shall def. listen.


I'm not sure as to why you feel another tutor (Mystical Teachings) is necessary, but I really think the card is just too slow for the rewards it gives us. Goblins would really step on our faces if we had this card in hand.

I don't have a valid argument for it, and I don't necessarily feel that it needs another tutor. I'm just brainstorming a little and though I'd ask what you guys thought about it; your post pretty much sums it up!

Gekoratel
03-13-2007, 10:50 AM
Does anyone know why this deck has been performing pretty poorly lately. I know in the NE at GAGG and both days of TML Open2 that it didn't make T8. Its not that good players weren't running the deck because I saw Deep6er and Nantuko_Shady running them at the aforementioned tournies. Has the hate finally reached a point where its made it to difficult for High Tide to win or is it just a small sample size and the deck will rise up again.

jodawe
03-13-2007, 11:02 AM
Does anyone know why this deck has been performing pretty poorly lately. I know in the NE at GAGG and both days of TML Open2 that it didn't make T8. Its not that good players weren't running the deck because I saw Deep6er and Nantuko_Shady running them at the aforementioned tournies. Has the hate finally reached a point where its made it to difficult for High Tide to win or is it just a small sample size and the deck will rise up again.

It's because threshold match is horrible if you are playing a competent player.

Deep6er
03-13-2007, 11:16 AM
Does anyone know why this deck has been performing pretty poorly lately. I know in the NE at GAGG and both days of TML Open2 that it didn't make T8. Its not that good players weren't running the deck because I saw Deep6er and Nantuko_Shady running them at the aforementioned tournies. Has the hate finally reached a point where its made it to difficult for High Tide to win or is it just a small sample size and the deck will rise up again.

Actually, it's a couple of things. See, I have a problem. I fucking HATE losing to Threshold. Also, I hate the fact that players who are worse than I am can beat me because Meddling Mage is good against me. That shit pisses me the hell off. However, reality does not accurately reflect my fears. Threshold's presence in the metagame has been steadily falling, yet I continue to take the deck in a direction that points otherwise. So, instead of focusing on answering the Goblins Matchup, I focus on a matchup that hardly exists anymore. Tunnel Vision, I know. Anyway, now that I've addressed the problem in my brain, I can address the Goblins matchup. Hopefully, I'll have a satisfactory answer and Solidarity will emerge from the crucible burnished, and shining in all it's glory.

Nihil Credo
03-13-2007, 11:33 AM
Anyway, now that I've addressed the problem in my brain, I can address the Goblins matchup. Hopefully, I'll have a satisfactory answer and Solidarity will emerge from the crucible burnished, and shining in all it's glory.
We all love you when you're like this, Dave.

Ewokslayer
03-13-2007, 12:24 PM
Actually, it's a couple of things. See, I have a problem. I fucking HATE losing to Threshold. Also, I hate the fact that players who are worse than I am can beat me because Meddling Mage is good against me. That shit pisses me the hell off. However, reality does not accurately reflect my fears. Threshold's presence in the metagame has been steadily falling, yet I continue to take the deck in a direction that points otherwise. So, instead of focusing on answering the Goblins Matchup, I focus on a matchup that hardly exists anymore. Tunnel Vision, I know. Anyway, now that I've addressed the problem in my brain, I can address the Goblins matchup. Hopefully, I'll have a satisfactory answer and Solidarity will emerge from the crucible burnished, and shining in all it's glory.

I don't know if I agree with this statement. The first assumption that Threshold is decreasing in popularity isn't neccessarily true and if it is slightly the case it is more than made up for by the large increase in other aggro-control decks.

I ran Solidarity the first day of TML Open to 14th place and a 4-2 record. My only loses were to
1)Red Death in a close 3 game set that I could have won if I had a bit better luck with Freezing myself prior to hitting Flash of Insight (milling all my resets = :frown: ) or had access to Brain Freeze via Cunning Wish during the sequence. I could have still drawn that match if I remembered that you have to put two cards back when you cast Brainstorm or realized that Think Twice gets around Hyppie a turn earlier.
2) Gro in two games were I got horribly mana screwed both games. I might have been able to attempt to go off game one in response to mage if I had played an actual land instead of a fetch that got stifled (it was like turn 8 or so with lethal the turn after). I had a choice between a fetch and a volcanic and I outthought myself and decided to be "sneaky" so that he wouldn't know I had a red splash for game 2.

I beat
Goblins
U/W Control deck (I don't think I should really count this one it was too easy)
U/W Angel Stompy
3cc Angel Stompy
I felt that the deck was well prepared to deal with the field as aggro-control as a block is making up more and more of the meta, equaling, if not surpassing, Goblins in terms of numbers. It would be nice to actually have a board plan against Red Death/ Deadguy that worked though.


Does anyone know why this deck has been performing pretty poorly lately. I know in the NE at GAGG and both days of TML Open2 that it didn't make T8. Its not that good players weren't running the deck because I saw Deep6er and Nantuko_Shady running them at the aforementioned tournies. Has the hate finally reached a point where its made it to difficult for High Tide to win or is it just a small sample size and the deck will rise up again.
You mention Nantuko_Shady but not me. That hurts.

NANTUKO_SHADY
03-13-2007, 02:43 PM
You mention Nantuko_Shady but not me. That hurts.


Yes, I will admit that Ewokslayer is much more experienced at Solidarity than I am, and a HELL OF ALOT better than me at the mirror match. :tongue:

Deep6er
03-13-2007, 03:56 PM
Actually, I'm working on beating the Goblin plan of Pillar + Chalice first. I don't think that's unreasonable simply because Goblins is usually going to have the numerical advantage over other decks. Seems to me that I've been losing more matches to Goblins than Threshold. If I can satisfactorily answer the Goblin Plan, I will devote a great deal of thought and effort into answering Red Death/Deadguy/Threshold. I'm really only good on focusing on one thing at a time. Not very good at the multitasking y'know. So, give me some time and I'll let all of you know how it turns out.