[Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)

[Reagens]

I took the deck (with red splash) to a tournament this week (side event GP Amsterdam). I wen 2-3 drop. I played David's version except I switch one twincast in the main board for a think twice.

First match my opponent shows up too late (well apparently a lot of people didn't hear the judges calling). So I am 1-0 up.

Second match I am up against mono black something. He does some stuff, I response some other stuff. He plays extirpate, waiting for me to say ok (I think he really tought I was still allowed to counter or something) either way I fear the worst until he chooses force of will... I combo next turn.
Second game I combo, playing all the relevant cards when he extirpates yet again choosing: force of will. Needless to say I won.

Third match up against Hanni Fish
Game 1 goes something like. swamp -> duress. Second turn swamp -> duress*2. Third turn was something nasty as well (meddling mage I believe). I don't remember exactly but I lost rather quickly.
Second game he opens with duress again and after that it goes downhill woth meddling mage and jotun grunt. I loose my remands to discard and in hindsight used my cunning wish too late costing me the game. I also lose the game because I was forced to discard a card at the end of my turn which made his grunt survive.

4th match against blue-red something

I have a lot of difficulty going of as he is playing creatures that can be sacced to counter spells unless player pays 1 or 2. Other than that he also has main deck disrupt. First game I lose after resolving meditate and 2 impulses for an untap effect ( I am getting a lot of that lately).
Second game I manage to break the counter wall (red blasts were there and it wasn't pretty). Third game I fold to the endless countering business. I wanted to drop after this one but eventually I kept playing because a friend of mine could still make top 8.

5th match against stasis. Theoretically I still have a chance for top 8 but loosing to that last deck should cost me in the resistance department so I am not really motivated or anything.
I play against stasis. First game I try to go off, not knowing what he plays. Needless to say I am too stubborn to cut my losses and combo next turn and expend all my resources on the combo. I fail and he plays the lock. I scoop to have a chance of winning. Second game I win because he brainstormed and I didn't. He has stasis lock on me but no threats (chronatog or something). He scoops because he also needs a win. Third game I start with one land because I am too lazy too mull. Needless to say I saw a first turn root maze followed closely by a chronatog. Altough he gives me quite some extra turns with his chronatog I draw pretty much nothing. I expend everything I got in 1 attempt in stead of using my remands what they are made for.
I drop because my friend draws again too time.

I barely saw any goblins that day. A lot of black and a lot of randomness. One of the most astonishing feats was a survival deck that most likely made top 8 (I saw the guy playing at the top tables troughout the day so).
I am still very happy with the one main deck twincast (I have 1 think twice in my sideboard). I wasn't able to really test the red splash altough it nearly helped me winning a game agains hanni fish. I think I can easily lose the hydroblasts because goblins seem extinct in our meta (not too surprising considering engineered plague is probably the most played sideboard card). ******** I didn' see at all. The deck is played by very few players any more. Most of those who ever played it are playing something else now.
Next week is another tournament for me but unless I can adapt my sideboard for this metagame I might put it aside this once.
Any suggestions?

[Awesomator]

"I could have still drawn that match if I remembered that you have to put two cards back when you cast Brainstorm or realized that Think Twice gets around Hyppie a turn earlier". Dont mean to sound like a jerk or anything Ewokslayer, but sounds like you lost due to play mistakes where you otherwise might have won (and maybe others) and possibly kept yourself out of top 8. I do think that thresh is slipping a little bit though, at least until the deck evolves a bit.

[solidarity!]

Hi

I tested with the red version and what i noticed is that the second volcanic island is really dangerous because i draw it too much and it gets wasted alot so i cut starstorm and the second volcanic island for brain freeze and island.

And against blue stax i noticed that rack and ruin is not enough he plays first turn mostly chalice for 1 turn two chalice for 2/trinisphere/crucible turn three smokestack/trinisphere/tanglewire then turn four another piece of artifact Or
I play first turn island he island go i play island he ancient tomb trinisphere i remand trinisphere draw a card then next turn he plays trinispere i force of will it then turn four i combo off(this is a play that i saw 3 times yesterday).

And the other problem is wasteland you need volcanic island for rack and ruin then he gets to wasteland one then i got 3 lands and then i need another land i sometimes do not have.

[Deep6er]

Hi

I tested with the red version and what i noticed is that the second volcanic island is really dangerous because i draw it too much and it gets wasted alot so i cut starstorm and the second volcanic island for brain freeze and island.

And against blue stax i noticed that rack and ruin is not enough he plays first turn mostly chalice for 1 turn two chalice for 2/trinisphere/crucible turn three smokestack/trinisphere/tanglewire then turn four another piece of artifact Or
I play first turn island he island go i play island he ancient tomb trinisphere i remand trinisphere draw a card then next turn he plays trinispere i force of will it then turn four i combo off(this is a play that i saw 3 times yesterday).

And the other problem is wasteland you need volcanic island for rack and ruin then he gets to wasteland one then i got 3 lands and then i need another land i sometimes do not have.

If you have a lot of Stax decks in your area, don't play Rack and Ruin. I wa playing Rack and Ruin in order to beat Fairy Stompy and other Chalice Aggro decks.

@Reagens: Sounds to me you lost to Hannifish because of triple Duress + Mage and Grunt. Not too many times are you going to be able to beat that. However, 'too lazy to mull' and 'I don't know what he's playing' all sound incredibly odd. Why did you attempt to go off if you don't know what he's playing? What spell did he play that forced you to go off? Also, change the Twincast back to Think Twice. In a metagame like that, you want consistency, not randomness.

[Occisor]

Hi all, I've been luking on the board for the last six months and I've finaly got round to taking the deck to a tournament! I was wondering what (if any) changes you guys would make to my sideboard for a largely unknown and undeveloped metagame. I live in the UK and I'm taking the deck to a GP trial with no clue what to expect, this is the build I'm taking:

Main deck

12x Island
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
4x High Tide
4x Opt
4x Brainstorm
4x Impulse
4x Reset
2x Brainfreeze
4x Remand
2x Flash of Insight
3x Cunning Wish
4x Meditate
3x Turnabout
4x Force of Will

Sideboard

1x Turnabout
2x Brainfreeze
1x Wipe away
1x Rebuild
1x Chain of vapour
3x Twincast
1x Stroke of genius
4x Disrupt/Hydroblast
1x ????

I guess what I want to know is what would people suggest, disrupt or blast and what about my empty slot? I'm not going to play the 4th twincast as I don't expect to see much of the mirror and testing have found them sometimes clogging my hand. For the ?? I was thinking words of wisdom as several times I've had to go off before I was ready vs fast aggro without enough mana to cast the stroke for the win. Both of these choices are probably wrong, but I'd be glad for someone to tell me so!!

[GreenOne]

I've been some time away to look at other combo decks and lost in the path some changes to the deck.
I'm somewhat interested in the Ur version but couldn't find a decklist back in those pages. Same for the Think Twice new addition, is it played instead of the MD and SB twincast?
Can someone post the list they played at TMLO?

Thanks men for the patience.

[Reagens]

I didn't know what he was playing because he didn't cast anything relevant. He had a sensei's divining top in play and tried to cast that enchantment that allows you to reveal your top card when an opponent plays a spell and if it has the same casting cost it's countered. That's when I tried to go off. Instead I should have been more careful not overtextending because I tought I had enough to beat his countermagic which wasn't the case. And at least I should have waited until his end phase.
Too lazy to mull was a little frustration seeping trough.
Concerning the consistency. That's what I am lacking right now. I seem to fizzle a lot more the last month than before. I don't really see the use of think twice in that case because manawise it's a really big investment.

[Lego]

12x Island
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
4x High Tide
4x Opt
4x Brainstorm
4x Impulse
4x Reset
2x Brainfreeze
4x Remand
2x Flash of Insight
3x Cunning Wish
4x Meditate
3x Turnabout
4x Force of Will

Sideboard

1x Turnabout
2x Brainfreeze
1x Wipe away
1x Rebuild
1x Chain of vapour
3x Twincast
1x Stroke of genius
4x Disrupt/Hydroblast
1x ????

I guess what I want to know is what would people suggest, disrupt or blast and what about my empty slot? I'm not going to play the 4th twincast as I don't expect to see much of the mirror and testing have found them sometimes clogging my hand. For the ?? I was thinking words of wisdom as several times I've had to go off before I was ready vs fast aggro without enough mana to cast the stroke for the win. Both of these choices are probably wrong, but I'd be glad for someone to tell me so!!

That last slot in your board should be Meditate. For a while it was thought that it was better to have 4 maindeck, but extensive play has shown that you fizzle much less with a Meditate in the board.

There are a few options with what you can do for that last maindeck slot if you move a Meditate to the board. 1 Maindeck Twincast is an option, and allows you to have 4 in the relevant matchups. Another option is to go with Gearhart's newer list, even if you don't splash red. Put a Think Twice in place of the Meditate and then 2 Think Twice in place of two Opts.

As for Disrupt/Hydroblast, I would definitely go with the blasts here, but it's a meta call. Hydroblast helps in the Threshold matchup, which is one of your most difficult matchups. Deadguy decks see a lot less play, and aren't nearly as bad for you to begin with.


I'm somewhat interested in the Ur version but couldn't find a decklist back in those pages. Same for the Think Twice new addition, is it played instead of the MD and SB twincast?
Can someone post the list they played at TMLO?

The Red Splash was discussed by Gearhart nearly 10 pages ago, but here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=112001&postcount=1134) is Shady's post detailing it.

-1 Twincast
-2 Peek (or Opt if you run 4)
+3 Think Twice

-2 Island
+2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 RACK AND RUIN (this can remain Rebuild if you see a lot of Stax/Affinity)
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 URZA'S RAGE
1 SUDDEN SHOCK
1 STARSTORM
3 Hydroblast
3 Twincast

[Occisor]

That last slot in your board should be Meditate. For a while it was thought that it was better to have 4 maindeck, but extensive play has shown that you fizzle much less with a Meditate in the board.

There are a few options with what you can do for that last maindeck slot if you move a Meditate to the board. 1 Maindeck Twincast is an option, and allows you to have 4 in the relevant matchups. Another option is to go with Gearhart's newer list, even if you don't splash red. Put a Think Twice in place of the Meditate and then 2 Think Twice in place of two Opts.

As for Disrupt/Hydroblast, I would definitely go with the blasts here, but it's a meta call. Hydroblast helps in the Threshold matchup, which is one of your most difficult matchups. Deadguy decks see a lot less play, and aren't nearly as bad for you to begin with.



Thanks - I appreciate your advice. If putting a meditate in the board is the best idea, should I still try and get tide,reset AND meditate in hand before going off? I realise that this is very situational but I thought they were the "holy trinity" of the deck?

I was splashing red for a while but found that I really didn't like having 2x volcanic islands, do you feel it is viable running only one? Also I rarely used the starstorm, I assume it's for the threshold matchup but wishing for it then casting it big enough to kill werebears costs 9.

[Ewokslayer]

Dont mean to sound like a jerk or anything Ewokslayer, but sounds like you lost due to play mistakes where you otherwise might have won (and maybe others) and possibly kept yourself out of top 8. I do think that thresh is slipping a little bit though, at least until the deck evolves a bit.

Drawing isn't the same as winning.
Obviously it was a play mistake. Though I only "think" it would have worked out as a draw. There is always the possibility I am forgetting a detail that would have made my plan of bouncing my opponent's creatures in extra turns not work.

I believe the loss to Red Death was in the second round so turning that lose into a draw doesn't simiply change my record to 4-1-1 and a top 8 berth as it changes all my matchups from round 3 onward.

[Lego]

Thanks - I appreciate your advice. If putting a meditate in the board is the best idea, should I still try and get tide,reset AND meditate in hand before going off? I realise that this is very situational but I thought they were the "holy trinity" of the deck?

You should probably ask someone with more experience than myself, but I'll go for it anyway. Like everything involving Solidarity, this really depends on the game state. Ideally, you would always like to have Tide, Reset, and Meditate in hand and at least 4 lands in play when beginning to combo off, but that's far from saying that is the only way to combo. Usually there will be some reason that you are comboing off. For instance:

1) Your opponent just played some hate, and you decide it's best to attempt to combo in response.
2) Your opponent just tapped out.
3) You're facing lethal damage next turn, or even worse, this turn.
4) You simply have the perfect hand.

All you can really do is try to get the best hand possible by the time you get into one of these situations. There's really no way for me to say exactly how you should play out any given hand, but test the deck with a Meditate in the board and you'll find a lot of situations where it'll be useful. Sometimes it's best to grab the Meditate EOT the turn before you combo off. Mostly you'll grab it mid-combo. It really depends on your hand, and your draws, and your opponent's plays, and the game state.


I was splashing red for a while but found that I really didn't like having 2x volcanic islands, do you feel it is viable running only one? Also I rarely used the starstorm, I assume it's for the threshold matchup but wishing for it then casting it big enough to kill werebears costs 9.

As far as I know, the Starstorm is there to buy you a lot of time in the Fish matchup. Taking care of True Believer,a couple Meddling Mage, and Dark Confidant (although in this situation Mage is probably naming Cunning Wish, you get my point) all at once can give you a lot of time to work with, and that can be worth burning through Tide/Reset, especially considering that you might not have been able to win otherwise.

That said, I haven't tested the red splash long enough to have used Starstorm, so if you feel like you don't want it, and you're finding Volc well enough when you need it (and not seeing a lot of Stifle in your meta) running 1 with 7 fetches seems fine.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

You should probably ask someone with more experience than myself, but I'll go for it anyway. Like everything involving Solidarity, this really depends on the game state. Ideally, you would always like to have Tide, Reset, and Meditate in hand and at least 4 lands in play when beginning to combo off, but that's far from saying that is the only way to combo. Usually there will be some reason that you are comboing off. For instance:

1) Your opponent just played some hate, and you decide it's best to attempt to combo in response.
2) Your opponent just tapped out.
3) You're facing lethal damage next turn, or even worse, this turn.
4) You simply have the perfect hand.

All you can really do is try to get the best hand possible by the time you get into one of these situations. There's really no way for me to say exactly how you should play out any given hand, but test the deck with a Meditate in the board and you'll find a lot of situations where it'll be useful. Sometimes it's best to grab the Meditate EOT the turn before you combo off. Mostly you'll grab it mid-combo. It really depends on your hand, and your draws, and your opponent's plays, and the game state.






Lego pretty much got it right. It ALL depends on the game state, cards in opponent's hand, what's on the stack waiting to resolve, etc. There isn't a "set" play for this deck really. I've comboed off low tide for a while until finally hitting my first High Tide. I have gone off without ever casting a Meditate. The list goes on about ways to win with this deck. Almost every play with this deck is situational, so use good judgement. If your playing against some landstill deck with no clock, then use that to your advantage and shape the perfect hand. If your playing against Goblins, adjust accordingly. All in all, just follow your instincts.

[Occisor]

Nice one guys thanks! I've been playing with the meditate in the board and I'm still not sure about it - whilst I assume that you guys know better, would it be worth considering playing them all main deck and a thirst for knowledge in the board? If the only time you wish for it is mid-combo, you can dump the excess land you've drawn(or a flash of insight) and draw 3. Again I'm happy to work on the assumption that this is garbage :smile: but I'd appreciate your opinion on the idea - I'm fast running out of testing time so I'd like to filter out junk ideas before wasting time testing them! You probably get sick of noobs posting "new tech" but I think it's worth thinking about since I really don't like dropping the meditate from the maindeck.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Nice one guys thanks! I've been playing with the meditate in the board and I'm still not sure about it - whilst I assume that you guys know better, would it be worth considering playing them all main deck and a thirst for knowledge in the board? If the only time you wish for it is mid-combo, you can dump the excess land you've drawn(or a flash of insight) and draw 3. Again I'm happy to work on the assumption that this is garbage :smile: but I'd appreciate your opinion on the idea - I'm fast running out of testing time so I'd like to filter out junk ideas before wasting time testing them! You probably get sick of noobs posting "new tech" but I think it's worth thinking about since I really don't like dropping the meditate from the maindeck.

I don't see the purpose to run TFK in this deck.

1.) It draws 3 cards, thus making it already worse than Meditate in my opinion.

2.) Also, if it is in the board, then Wishing for it and casting it pre-combo would be a weaker play than casting a Meditate pre-combo.

I see where your coming from where it is nice to dump lands and Flash of Insight, but lets be realistic about this. It draws 3 cards, NOT 4.

EDIT: What you cut in the board for TFK as well? TFK draws some cards, but it just isn't strong enough.


The reason I feel it is better to run Meditate in the sideboard is because of the odds of "drawing" one. With one Meditate in the board, you just added "3" more Meditates via Cunning Wish. Trading that one maindeck slot for a versatile one in the sideboard is def. worth it. Trust me, running a Meditate in the board just gives you more ways/chances to get one when you need it.

[Occisor]

Thanks again - I can dump that plan then, I'll stick with the meditate in the board!

[Lego]

If the only time you wish for it is mid-combo

This is an assumption that you shouldn't make. It's difficult to pigeon-hole any card in Solidarity. There are certainly going to be times pre-combo when you are going to need to Cunning Wish for Meditate. For instance, when playing against Deadguy I've cast Cunning Wish at the end of my opponent's turn to get Meditate, and then cast it at the end of his next turn, regaining a lot of the card advantage lost from his earlier assault on my hand. It's much better, obviously, to have the Meditate in hand over the Cunning Wish to begin with, but 1 in the board means either Cunning Wish or Meditate could put me back in the game at this point. This is just one example. Even if it's not the primary use of the card in the board, I'm sure there are other times when you'll grab Meditate before you combo.

[Tacosnape]

Even if it's not the primary use of the card in the board, I'm sure there are other times when you'll grab Meditate before you combo.

Meditate is actually my most common target for Cunning Wish. I'll grab it any time I'm holding Tide/Untap and am not staring at something annoying like Mage or Chalice.

[Lego]

Meditate is actually my most common target for Cunning Wish. I'll grab it any time I'm holding Tide/Untap and am not staring at something annoying like Mage or Chalice.

I would always grab it under that situation as well. I can't remember if that's more common than other situations, but you make a good point either way.

[Occisor]

So as an average, what turn do you combo on average? I've bee practising against goblins and a sligh-type deck my friend is thinking of bringing, and quite often I have to try and go off on turn 3 or 4. I've found with the meditate in the board and the think twices over opts, I seem to fizzle more often due to a shortage of mana. Is this just a combination of bad draws and plays, or is it an accepted trade off over the old build?

[noobslayer]

I never switched over to think twice. I can see it's justification for inclusion, but I like how 4 opt keeps my overall card quality a lot more consistent. Nor have I even considered going to the red splash. I'd rather test green for determined first.

[Occisor]

I'm inclined to take the middle ground and run 3x opt and 2x think twice. I read about the green splah for determined and thought it seemed strong, apart from the added vunerability to wasteland.

[thelfj]

was there ever a consideration for a white splash for either chant or abeyance?

[Anarky87]

was there ever a consideration for a white splash for either chant or abeyance?

Yup, quite awhile back. I'd try looking at the beginning pages of the thread to find it and why it isn't used.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

So as an average, what turn do you combo on average? I've bee practising against goblins and a sligh-type deck my friend is thinking of bringing, and quite often I have to try and go off on turn 3 or 4. I've found with the meditate in the board and the think twices over opts, I seem to fizzle more often due to a shortage of mana. Is this just a combination of bad draws and plays, or is it an accepted trade off over the old build?

The "average" turn to combo off for Solidarity is generally turn 4. However, turn 3 combos are very possible with multiple High Tides, and a turn 2 has been pulled off by Gearhart before I believe. Obviousely the more time given the better, but by turn 4 you should have a somewhat compatible hand. Anyways, you are 100% correct in the sense that Think Twice is significantly slower than Opt. Often times, Opt is used to find that second or third land, and against these Goblin/Sligh decks your testing against, you def. do not want to miss a land drop. If you are looking to speed your deck up, then cut the Think Twices. I personally don't like Think Twice, as I think it is slow. It has it's advantages when you get Hymned and stuff like that, and it gives you more true card advantage when the game gets drawn out, but I just don't like the card. It's your call, but yes, Opt is faster than Think Twice.

[Tacosnape]

Yup, quite awhile back. I'd try looking at the beginning pages of the thread to find it and why it isn't used.

I dunno, but if more Epic Storm shows up, it may be tempting to revisit. Orim's Chant is nice here, and Swords to Plowshares would be a godsend against Xantid Swarm.

[Silverdragon]

Against Xantid Swarm Pongify works alright and Echoing Truth is great for those Goblin Tokens.
The red splash might also be quite good because between City of Brass and Plunge into Darkness your opponent will deal a good amount of damage to himself giving you an opportunity to burn him out in response.

[lillelassie]

The new Pirate Charm would be a better out against Zantid Swarm, since it also could be used to discard their last spell in respons to the 2nd last.

[Silverdragon]

The new Pirate Charm would be a better out against Zantid Swarm, since it also could be used to discard their last spell in respons to the 2nd last.

True but Pongify also deals with Meddling Mage, True Believer and other random creatures that are too big for Piracy Charm.
Anyway is there still a valid reason to play Chain of Vapor over other bounce or removal spells? I can see how Wish -> Chain is nice as you can play both at the same turn with only 4 mana but are there really any targets you can't wait until turn 5 to bounce?

[jamest]

I've been playing with the meditate in the board and I'm still not sure about it
I might be the lone dissenter, but I don't like Meditate in the sideboard. I think it's unnecessary, since I already have two draw spells to wish for - Stroke of Genius and Brain Freeze.


So as an average, what turn do you combo on average?
Turn 4 is the average. Turn 5 is pretty common. Turn 3 if you're holding double High Tide (ideally) but these hands are rare and prone to fizzling. In general, you wait as long as you can, and then attempt to combo off with what you got.


I've found with the meditate in the board and the think twices over opts, I seem to fizzle more often due to a shortage of mana.
If you're trying to combo off on turn 4 more consistently, Think Twice is bad. TT is meant for a slower meta of aggro control and discard decks. Personally, I go with 4 Opts.

In my experience, mana shortage is the main reason this deck fizzles, which is why I run the 7 Tides (3 Tides MD, 1 Tide as wish target). This increases my chances of finding a Tide and, just as important, a second Tide.

[Deep6er]

At this point, I'm tired of arguing with the people who believe that all the Meditates should be in the maindeck. Honestly, I played it, and after doing all the calculations and all the testing, I found that a Meditate to Wish for is much better. Saying Stroke and Freeze are your 'draw' spells is ludicrous. Freeze is an awful 'draw' spell and Stroke is ridiculously inefficient. Also, after doing a hefty amount of goldfish games with a variety of maindeck/board configurations, I can tell you with certainty that a Tide in the board is awful. It decreases the chance of going off turn 3 by an incredibly high margin, and it interferes with the curve in addition to weakening the prospects of a turn 4 go off. I also found that Think Twice did not have as disastrous consequences on my turn 4 go offs as some people have been led to believe. You know what though? It appears that the dissenters will NOT believe me. That's fine. I'll admit I'm a bit irritated with them, but it's their opinion and they are entitled to it. However, a cautionary word is in order. Disregarding what I say about the deck that I know the most about is an invitation to disaster. I've tested EVERYTHING that has been brought up here. What you see now is the culmination of all that experience. In fact, I'll let a couple of tidbits loose right now. Tacosnape, sorry to disappoint you, but the green spash was ineffective. I tested Determined, Seedtime, and even Xantid Swarm. Honestly, they didn't do enough in the matchups that you want them to. In fact, the list of cards I've tested is retarded. Many of them weren't even instants (you can probably surmise how these particular ones ended up). I'll just finish by reminding all those disbelievers out there to tread carefully and at your own peril. That is all.

[Occisor]

I'm really sorry if I come across as a dissenter, I'm really just trying to understand the intricacies of the decks constuction. I have not played the deck for nearly as long as others on the board, and having made the effort to read every page of this thread, I still forget and get confused about some of the points. As to think twice vs opt, I have no clue as to the metagame I will face so I was merely posting a question about the cards rather than suggesting i know any better.

Still, at least I get flamed by someone who knows what they're talking about!!! :tongue:

[jamest]

Honestly, I played it, and after doing all the calculations and all the testing, I found that a Meditate to Wish for is much better.
I'd like to see some calculations.


Freeze is an awful 'draw' spell
Freeze into Flash into draw your whole deck. Awful?


Stroke is ridiculously inefficient.
Sure, Stroke is inefficient. But, it's only after I realized the strength of Stroke in this deck that my fizzle rate greatly reduced. This deck is designed to generate mana and no card takes advantage of that fact better. I use Stroke as a draw spell almost every game, so if you're not, then you and I play this deck very differently.


I can tell you with certainty that a Tide in the board is awful. It decreases the chance of going off turn 3 by an incredibly high margin,
I agree that it hurts your Turn 3 combo, but what are your chances of *successfully* comboing off on Turn 3? Guess a percentage. Because in my experience, that Turn 3 combo (even with 4 MD Tides) hardly ever works.


and it interferes with the curve in addition to weakening the prospects of a turn 4 go off.
I completely disagree with this. My whole point of 7 Tides is to improve my Turn 4 combo, by increasing the chances of drawing the scarcest combo piece. And, I don't understand how your wishable Turnabout is much different from my wishable Tide. Both are mana generators. Except I've decided to increase my 4-of while you increase your 8-of.

In terms of mana curving, I have two points. First, we want 4 lands in play, so it's not like 3cc is outside our mana curve. Second, having a Wish in hand (with SB Tide) frees up our cantrips to dig for land. Plus, if you're really worried about mana curving, shouldn't you be playing 4 Opts?


I'll just finish by reminding all those disbelievers out there to tread carefully and at your own peril. That is all.
Chill. At the end of the day, we're not that far apart. I have 3 MD Tides instead of your 4. You have 3 MD Meditates instead of my 4 ...

[Di]

was there ever a consideration for a white splash for either chant or abeyance?

Yup, quite awhile back. I'd try looking at the beginning pages of the thread to find it and why it isn't used.

Check the very first post, my God awful build is on it. Back 100 years ago when I was playing the deck, I ran a U/w build for Chants and transformational sideboard with Isochron Scepter. That Scepter strategy is probably bad right now, but considering the splash ideas are growing more popular, it might be worth the time to see if it's good or not. You get Orim's Chant/Abeyance and at least have StP vs. Meddling Mage and Xantid Swarm.


Chill. At the end of the day, we're not that far apart anyways. I have 3 MD Tides instead of your 4. You have 3 MD Meditates instead of my 4 ...

3 MD High Tide as opposed to 4 MD High Tide is eons apart. You can try whatever you like, but at the end of the day you should at least be listening to Gearheart because he probably knows what's best for the deck.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

1.) Freeze into Flash into draw your whole deck. Awful?


2.) Sure, Stroke is inefficient. But, it's only after I realized the strength of Stroke in this deck that my fizzle rate greatly reduced. This deck is designed to generate mana and no card takes advantage of that fact better. I use Stroke as a draw spell almost every game, so if you're not, then you and I play this deck very differently.


3.) I agree that it hurts your Turn 3 combo, but what are your chances of *successfully* comboing off on Turn 3? Guess a percentage. Because in my experience, that Turn 3 combo (even with 4 MD Tides) hardly ever works.





Before I start, I just want to say that this is NOT in defense in Gearheart. This is my reasoning, and I see you both have "conflicting" points.


1.) That is absolutely absurd. In order to be able to "draw" your whole deck, you must first Brainfreeze into a Flash Of Insight, and NOT hit all of your crucial untap spells. Brainfreezing yourself should be used as a last resort, as it's chances of success are generally much slimmer than casting a Meditate or another draw spell of the sort. I don't know how you test, but I have found it rather difficult to just Brainfreeze yourself as a primary plan and actually get the chance to stack your whole deck. Keep in mind, in order to stack your whole deck, your graveyard will have to be greater than or equal to the number of cards left in your library. (blue cards only). If you are using this as your primary draw plan, instead of trying to cast Meditate, then chances are you toss alot of cards in the yard that you don't want to. Say you are able to "stack" your deck, what's the point if all of your Cunning Wishes or Resets are in your graveyard? I find Flash Of Insight much stronger AFTER I have casted alot of spells and built up my graveyard with cards I chose to play from hand, not flipping off my library in complete chance. You made that above statement like it is a fool-proof 100% way to go off, and it def. is not.


2.) Ok. Stroke of Genius CAN be retarded at times, but it is very situational. You say you almost use it every game as a draw spell, which is not a good idea in my opinion. It seems like you go into each game with a pre-determined plan to Stroke yourself, which may end up kicking you in the ass later on. I find Stroke of Genius targeting myself only optimal when I have casted multiple High Tides, or I have ALOT of lands and untap effects at my disposal. Stroke of Genius can def. be very powerful given a large amount of mana, so I am not criticizing you for Stroking yourself in those situations. I just think you should be more open to ways of going off, as Stroking yourself can be risky. I won't Stroke of Genius myself unless I am certain I will be able to flash it RFG with Flash of Insight, and Cunning Wish for it afterwards to make my opponent draw a card.


3.) I'm no numbers guy, but going off on turn 3 is very possible. Granted you have multiple High Tides, some nice draw spells, and a little luck, it can be done. Against Affinity, I have had to go off on turn 3 very often, probably more than I would like to, but it is possible. Don't get me wrong, we don't WANT to go off on turn 3, but if you know you are going to be balls to the wall really early, then you can adjust your gameplan and shape your hand accordingly. For instance, Brainstor/Fetch away useless slow cards like Force of Will, or Cunning Wish, and dig for multiple High Tides and Resets. Now if you sideboard a High Tide, then your chances are even slimmer of going off on turn 3. I'm unclear on what your trying to get at in your statement, but yes, turn 3 is hard but impossible.



This isn't an attack on you Jamest, so don't treat it as such. I am just trying to figure out where you think the deck should go, and arousing discussion about it.

[Nihil Credo]

I find Stroke of Genius targeting myself only optimal when I have casted multiple High Tides, or I have ALOT of lands and untap effects at my disposal.
How often does that even happen? I mean, I don't think I've Stroked myself* more than a dozen times or so, ever - the majority of them being when Landstill was Tier 1. To be as powerful as a Meditate, Stroke requires seven mana. That's a lot. Most of the time, I find it easier to cast a (relatively) cheap Flash of Insight RFGing a previous Meditate, then Wishing for that same Meditate (which costs six mana as opposed to ten, not counting the two for the Flash which I was going to cast anyway).


*Now there's a double-entendre.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

How often does that even happen? I mean, I don't think I've Stroked myself* more than a dozen times or so, ever - the majority of them being when Landstill was Tier 1. To be as powerful as a Meditate, Stroke requires seven mana. That's a lot. Most of the time, I find it easier to cast a (relatively) cheap Flash of Insight RFGing a previous Meditate, then Wishing for that same Meditate (which costs six mana as opposed to ten, not counting the two for the Flash which I was going to cast anyway).


*Now there's a double-entendre.

My point exactly my point, it DOESN'T happen too often. Stroking yourself is much more mana intensive, so it isn't worth it at all if you are going to draw the same or close to the number of cards off a Meditate.

[jamest]

1.) ...
If I thought it was a fool-proof 100%, I wouldn't bother with Stroke, would I? Good primer on the Freeze method though.


2.) ...
I don't go into a combo sequence with a pre-determined plan. I just notice that I use Stroke often.


I won't Stroke of Genius myself unless I am certain I will be able to flash it RFG with Flash of Insight, and Cunning Wish for it afterwards to make my opponent draw a card.
Often times, you don't need to force your opponent to draw with Stroke. For example, Freeze Turnabout is usually sufficient against creature decks. It all depends on the situation.


3.) ...
The point of my statement is: If the Turn 3 combo rarely ever happens, then it is not a good reason to maindeck the 4th Tide.


This isn't an attack on you Jamest, so don't treat it as such. I am just trying to figure out where you think the deck should go, and arousing discussion about it.
It's cool. I just took a string of math midterms. Now, I get to relax and piss off Gearhart for fun.

[No_Life_No_Future]

I played my solidarity build at a local 1.5 tourney this weekend. I took second place going (3-0-1) in 4 rounds of swiss /w about 28 people.

My matchups were:

round 1 (1-1-1) vs RW agro with burn he won die roll.
Game 1
I was able to go off third turn, (he had fast clock and I was worried about fireblast killing me. He wastes alot of time while im comboing, if he had just scooped he would have won game 3.

-2 opt
-2 peek
+4 BEB

Game 2
He drops some more quite beats and then tries for an arcane lab. I FOW but I couldnt reach a hand worthy of winning and he was fast enough to take the win.

Game 3
He drops some efficient creatures and bolts me a couple of times. Time was called and we went to 5 turns. Unfortunatley I couldnt topdeck a hightide or resest and despite having 3 brainfreezes in hand I could not finish him. (I had to BeB a Goblin. Then I could have casted 2 brainfreeze with a turnabout but i did a library count and it was only a few cards short--he played 3+ spells...). So I had to turnabout his creatures and I ended the game at 1 life.

round 2 (2-0) vs Iggy Pop won die roll.

Game 1
I saw what he was playing earlier so I planned to mull to a force but I drew one in my opening hand :). He goes for the first turn mindtwist and I force. I go off turn 3 in response to an intuition.

Game 2
-2 Opt
-2 Peek
+4 disrupt
He mulls to 4 (yay) plays nothing and says go. I island go. He goes lotus petal brainstorm... I disrupt and proceed to win in response to a defense grid on turn 5.

round 2 (2-1) vs UGW thresh I win die roll.

Game 1
He plays a couple of cantrips while I drop lands. He drops goose and bear witout thresh. I go off in respone to a mage on freeze avoiding daze the whole time. (he later showed it to me after the game.)

-2 opt
-2 peek
+4 disrupt

Game 2
I think I could have won this game but the mistake I made was small. I dont remember the exact situation, but i remember that I was playing around daze with a fetchland and it got stifled to let an armageddon resolve and I cryed. If I had tryed to fetch earlier and it was stifled I could have disrupted his armagedon probably resulting in a win.

Game 3
I won this game with a double brainfreeze on turn 4.

round 4 vs janky mono black.
Game 1. I won the die roll.

I island go. He duressed first turn taking reset. I cast peek eot and his hand revealed "hym to torach, and three creature removal and slow clock 1/1 creatures. The deck was bad but I when he enchanted one of his creatures with a cloak of confusion (wtf).

-2 peek
-2 opt

Game 2.
This game he drew into no disruption and I was able to go off no problem against his slow clock.

Game 3.
He starts of with a duress and I counter with BS hiding my reset and cunning wish. I land go and he proceeds to hymn me. I thought for sure I was going to lose. To top it all off he drops mindstab thrull. I begin to realize that im about to loose to jank. He sacs thrull takes my hand with it. He drops a couple 1/1's and then another thrull which takes my hand away yet again. I am happy that I even made some land drops. I topdeck a meditate and start canculating. He has small threats but they are slowly killing me and a cloack would seal the game so I took a chance and cast meditate in an effort to refuel an empty hand. He takes his two turns droping some more beats and puting me in near death. Luckily thanks to flash of insight (saved my ass) I was able to find a remand and double freeze him the turn before he had enough damage.

Great deck dave! Have you tested energy field as a way of stalling for land drops against quick red decks?

[Deep6er]

Actually, I can provide some recent numbers that I just got. In an effort to create a higher turn 3 win percentage, I took the old monoblue list with a couple of changes. It had no Remands, 4 Opts, 4 Twincasts, no Think Twices, and one Peek. Basically by overloading the one drop slot, you create the most reliable method of finding the SECOND Tide as soon as possible. Out of Twenty-Five games (in which I alternated Play/Draw), I only managed to win turn 3 (with that configuration of the maindeck and a slight change to the sideboard) about 8 times. It should have been 9, but I drew 8 lands off of double Meditate + Brainstorm. Seems bad. Honestly, I would NEVER recommend that configuration. When I did the 100 game goldfish (detailed in the earlier, now archived, Solidarity thread) it came out to a lower percentage. I'll tell you what though, as soon as I get some time, I'll do another 100 game goldfish and track the results. However, with the addition of Remand, and the presence of Force of Will, goldfish results aren't always terribly accurate. Anyway, it DOES look like we play the deck vastly differently. Just as an aside, but I've used Stroke ONCE in the past 50 games. I personally don't like Stroke and wish it was always another card. Unfortunately, there's no other card that does what it does, so it sticks around. Also, wishing for Turnabout is pretty different from wishing for Tide. In order for you to gain the benefits of your Wished-for card, you have to do it precombo. In order for me to gain the benefits of my Wished-for card, I can do it pre- OR mid- combo. Also, Wish DOES interfere with the manacurve. It's true that you are ABLE to go; Brainstorm, Impulse, Wish, but that also means no Remand. Personally, I use Remand A LOT. Not to mention the times that I draw Flash. So, in my experience, Wish does in fact mess with the curve.


Give me A LOT of time, and I can find the old post that detailed the differences in odds of going off with the maindeck Meditates as opposed to the sideboarded Meditate. I vaguely remember it from the old thread, but that's going to take an assload of time to find. Incidentally, if you've read through all of the pages of discussion, did you just gloss over that part?

@Cooldude: Interestingly enough, it looks like your metagame is the perfect site for the newest list of Solidarity: The Red Tide. Why aren't you playing that?


@Energy Field: Yeah, I tested it. Wasn't one of my prouder moments. Energy Field is pretty fucking terrible in a deck that wants to use a lot of spells. End result, awful. Sorry.

[Cavius The Great]

Look at me!! I'm David Gearhart!! I'm the fucking greatest, bitch!! Love ya Dave. And Red Tide is so techy it's disgusting. I remember seeing your hand from watching a game at the Mana Leak Open 2 and saw a Volcanic Island in your hand. I thought I was hallucinating. Then you later explained to me the whole tech thing versus Meddling Mage. I love the idea, Dave. Just figured I'd give you some props on that. :wink:

[TheRock]

Against Affinity, I have had to go off on turn 3 very often, probably more than I would like to, but it is possible. Don't get me wrong, we don't WANT to go off on turn 3, but if you know you are going to be balls to the wall really early, then you can adjust your gameplan and shape your hand accordingly. For instance, Brainstor/Fetch away useless slow cards like Force of Will, or Cunning Wish, and dig for multiple High Tides and Resets.

Not to be a nitpick or anything of the sort, but why would you throw away Forces against Affinity early on? Affinity has the same sort of "combo" approach as Goblins: they both need a card in order to win turn three. You can counter/Remand almost anything and Affinity's turn three kill is gone --- in fact, you may buy yourself multiple turns. Same with Goblins.

Why wouldn't you Time Walk yourself, especially when you could really use the 4th land? Granted, it's certainly not your best play, but it does have merits with the right hand.

[Lego]

Not to be a nitpick or anything of the sort, but why would you throw away Forces against Affinity early on? Affinity has the same sort of "combo" approach as Goblins: they both need a card in order to win turn three. You can counter/Remand almost anything and Affinity's turn three kill is gone --- in fact, you may buy yourself multiple turns. Same with Goblins.

Why wouldn't you Time Walk yourself, especially when you could really use the 4th land? Granted, it's certainly not your best play, but it does have merits with the right hand.

I've found this to be the most effective plan against Affinity (although take that with a grain of salt, as I've only tested the match about 25 times, and only faced it in tournaments twice.) Basically, the chances of you comboing off on turn 3 are less than the chances of you being able to stop them from winning on 3 or 4. If you can dig for early Remands/Forces and take out the key cards, you can usually win pretty easily with bounce during their endgame. Bad Affinity players will sac everything to Ravager, opening up a chance for Chain of Vapor to win it. Against the good ones, it's usually possible to stall the game enough to get Wish --> Rebuild, and I've never had an Affinity player win after that (although I'm sure it would happen if I kept testing it.)

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

My bad. The Rock and Lego, you are correct. I either mistyped or was misthinking when I typed that long ass thing to Jamest. Force of Will is nuts against Affinity, as one Force of Will can make their turn 3 clock go away. Remand on the play, and Force of Will are both huge. Sorry all for poting that garbage in my previous post. Cards more likely to get rid of off Brainstorm would probably be Flash of Insight or something of the sort. I have also found Rebuild to be a little slow at times. If you can cast a Remand or FOW something early, then Rebuild is much stronger, but if they have Disciple and Ravager out, then they will just kill you in response to Rebuild. Thanks The Rock for pointing out my error.

[Tacosnape]

Before I start, I just want to say that this is NOT in defense in Gearheart. This is my reasoning, and I see you both have "conflicting" points.


1.) That is absolutely absurd. In order to be able to "draw" your whole deck, you must first Brainfreeze into a Flash Of Insight, and NOT hit all of your crucial untap spells. Brainfreezing yourself should be used as a last resort, as it's chances of success are generally much slimmer than casting a Meditate or another draw spell of the sort. I don't know how you test, but I have found it rather difficult to just Brainfreeze yourself as a primary plan and actually get the chance to stack your whole deck. Keep in mind, in order to stack your whole deck, your graveyard will have to be greater than or equal to the number of cards left in your library. (blue cards only). If you are using this as your primary draw plan, instead of trying to cast Meditate, then chances are you toss alot of cards in the yard that you don't want to. Say you are able to "stack" your deck, what's the point if all of your Cunning Wishes or Resets are in your graveyard? I find Flash Of Insight much stronger AFTER I have casted alot of spells and built up my graveyard with cards I chose to play from hand, not flipping off my library in complete chance. You made that above statement like it is a fool-proof 100% way to go off, and it def. is not.


2.) Ok. Stroke of Genius CAN be retarded at times, but it is very situational. You say you almost use it every game as a draw spell, which is not a good idea in my opinion. It seems like you go into each game with a pre-determined plan to Stroke yourself, which may end up kicking you in the ass later on. I find Stroke of Genius targeting myself only optimal when I have casted multiple High Tides, or I have ALOT of lands and untap effects at my disposal. Stroke of Genius can def. be very powerful given a large amount of mana, so I am not criticizing you for Stroking yourself in those situations. I just think you should be more open to ways of going off, as Stroking yourself can be risky. I won't Stroke of Genius myself unless I am certain I will be able to flash it RFG with Flash of Insight, and Cunning Wish for it afterwards to make my opponent draw a card.

1. Mostly agreed. Planning to hit yourself and deckstack with the Freeze as a main plan is indeed ridiculous. Brain Freeze is your absolute last resort draw spell. More often than not, if you use it mid combo, you'll do it to nail two lands off the top of your library after a Brainstorm.

It should be noted, however, that if you Brain Freeze yourself for the deckstack, the resource you're short of is almost always Draw, not Mana. Therefore it's not all that rare to do it with an Untap spell in hand or a shit-ton of mana floating.

2. Definitely agreed. Stroke of Genius is by far a backup draw spell for rare use. If you have three Meditates maindeck and one in the board, which you should, Fizzling out by lack of card draw is an incredible rarity. If you maindeck four Meditates, run 2 Strokes in board, or one Stroke and one Three Wishes. There are, as always, situations where casting the Stroke on yourself is an incredible play, but it's rarely necessary.

[jodawe]

Actually, I can provide some recent numbers that I just got. In an effort to create a higher turn 3 win percentage, I took the old monoblue list with a couple of changes. It had no Remands, 4 Opts, 4 Twincasts, no Think Twices, and one Peek. Basically by overloading the one drop slot, you create the most reliable method of finding the SECOND Tide as soon as possible.

Did you ever find 4 twincasts to be too much?

[Deep6er]

Sometimes. That card is ridiculously swingy. There were a lot of times I won because of multiple Twincasts chaining Meditates and Resets, but there were a couple of games where I was staring at Twincasts wishing it DID something.

[jamest]

Actually, I can provide some recent numbers that I just got. In an effort to create a higher turn 3 win percentage, I took the old monoblue list with a couple of changes. It had no Remands, 4 Opts, 4 Twincasts, no Think Twices, and one Peek. Basically by overloading the one drop slot, you create the most reliable method of finding the SECOND Tide as soon as possible. Out of Twenty-Five games (in which I alternated Play/Draw), I only managed to win turn 3 (with that configuration of the maindeck and a slight change to the sideboard) about 8 times. It should have been 9, but I drew 8 lands off of double Meditate + Brainstorm. Seems bad. Honestly, I would NEVER recommend that configuration. When I did the 100 game goldfish (detailed in the earlier, now archived, Solidarity thread) it came out to a lower percentage. I'll tell you what though, as soon as I get some time, I'll do another 100 game goldfish and track the results.
This is really cool - a glimpse into Dave's Mad Solidarity Laboratory.


However, with the addition of Remand, and the presence of Force of Will, goldfish results aren't always terribly accurate.
Agreed.


Anyway, it DOES look like we play the deck vastly differently. Just as an aside, but I've used Stroke ONCE in the past 50 games. I personally don't like Stroke and wish it was always another card. Unfortunately, there's no other card that does what it does, so it sticks around.
I did some testing yesterday. And I tried to remember of how often I used Stroke. It wasn't "almost every game" like I wrote earlier. I used a variety of combo methods that I'm sure you're all familiar with. But still, I used Stroke a significant percentage - probably more than most. The thing is that Stroke requires a little bit of planning to set up. So I'm not just waiting for the right situation to come along; I'm actively trying to create that situation.


Also, wishing for Turnabout is pretty different from wishing for Tide. In order for you to gain the benefits of your Wished-for card, you have to do it precombo. In order for me to gain the benefits of my Wished-for card, I can do it pre- OR mid- combo.
I disagree here. I'm constantly looking for opportunities to Wish for Tide midcombo. It's a 4 mana investment now that will usually return more mana later.

Here's a sample senario:
4 lands in play. My hand is: Tide, Wish, Wish, Reset, Turnabout
My Combo Sequence is: Tide Wish-for-Tide Reset Turnabout Wish-for-Stroke for 10 cards ...
I leave 5 mana unused for untap and extra dig.
The Tide-for-Wish nets 5 mana (9 minus 4 to cast) plus future untap mana. Wish-for-Turnabout in this situation can only net 1 mana. This example is a little obvious though, since we know with certainty Wish-for-Tide will gain mana. There are more borderline situations, of course. A difference to notice between Wish-for-Tide and Wish-for-Turnabout is that the mana gained from Wish-for-Tide grows as the combo progresses whereas Wish-for-Turnabout is a one time effect.
In light of this example, I suspect my frequency of using Stroke may be a product of having extra Tides.


Also, Wish DOES interfere with the manacurve. It's true that you are ABLE to go; Brainstorm, Impulse, Wish, but that also means no Remand. Personally, I use Remand A LOT. Not to mention the times that I draw Flash. So, in my experience, Wish does in fact mess with the curve.
I also Remand before Impulse. But, I usually don't cast Brainstorm 1st Turn.


It should be noted, however, that if you Brain Freeze yourself for the deckstack, the resource you're short of is almost always Draw, not Mana.
My low resource when I Wish-for-Freeze is usually mana. If I had enough mana, I would just go for Stroke.

[beezy]

Here's a sample senario:
4 lands in play. My hand is: Tide, Wish, Wish, Reset, Turnabout
My Combo Sequence is: Tide Wish-for-Tide Reset Turnabout Wish-for-Stroke for 10 cards ...
I leave 5 mana unused for untap and extra dig.
The Tide-for-Wish nets 5 mana (9 minus 4 to cast) plus future untap mana. Wish-for-Turnabout in this situation can only net 1 mana. This example is a little obvious though, since we know with certainty Wish-for-Tide will gain mana. There are more borderline situations, of course. A difference to notice between Wish-for-Tide and Wish-for-Turnabout is that the mana gained from Wish-for-Tide grows as the combo progresses whereas Wish-for-Turnabout is a one time effect.
In light of this example, I suspect my frequency of using Stroke may be a product of having extra Tides.


I also Remand before Impulse. But, I usually don't cast Brainstorm 1st Turn.


My low resource when I Wish-for-Freeze is usually mana. If I had enough mana, I would just go for Stroke.

Why wouldn't you do : Tide, Wish for Meditate, Reset, Meditate, you get 4 cards and still would have 3 islands untapped. That would seem to be better than exhausting resources for a Stroke.

[Tacosnape]

I disagree here. I'm constantly looking for opportunities to Wish for Tide midcombo. It's a 4 mana investment now that will usually return more mana later.

Here's a sample senario:
4 lands in play. My hand is: Tide, Wish, Wish, Reset, Turnabout


This is a flawed example that completely undermines the point of having a Tide in your sideboard. There is almost no way you fail to go off with this hand (disruption aside) regardless of whether you have the Tide in your sideboard or run the more conventional build.

What Deep6er is referring to are the situations where you don't have a Tide in your hand, which are far more with only 3 in the deck than with 4 in the deck. It's much more difficult for you to start your combo without having the Tide in your hand first. You can of course go Reset, Cunning Wish, High Tide, but if I had the option I'd much rather do that whole thing in reverse order.

[Taurelin]

Another question regarding the use of Stroke: Is it considered an "acceptable" play to wish for Stroke early in the combo when you have Twincast in your hand? Depending on the amount of mana at your disposal, it will result in much more cards than Meditate+Twincast.

[Tacosnape]

Another question regarding the use of Stroke: Is it considered an "acceptable" play to wish for Stroke early in the combo when you have Twincast in your hand? Depending on the amount of mana at your disposal, it will result in much more cards than Meditate+Twincast.

Again, it's always situational. You can always Stroke -them-, and Twincast it at yourself, too, and then go through the remainder of your combo with the original Stroke on the stack, not letting it resolve until your Brain Freezes deck your opponent.

There are times when I go off with something akin to Tide, Tide, Reset, Reset, Turnabout, Cunning Wish with 5 lands in play. Cunning Wish for Stroke of Genius here is probably one of the best plays.

What you need to ask yourself is this: "Am I going to need Stroke of Genius to kill my opponent?"

If your opponent is about to swing in for Lethal Damage, don't assume the answer is yes. Ask yourself if they have a way to kill you during their next upkeep (Burn, Siege-Gang Commander, etc). No? Here's what you can do.

If you have the above 2 Tide/2 Reset/1 Turnabout/1 Wish hand with 5 land, You can go double Tide, Turnabout to tap all their creatures prior to Declaring Attackers. Then, Cunning Wish for Stroke, Reset with 1 floating, tap all your lands for 15 mana, Reset again with 14 floating, and Stroke for some respectable amount. Then you can go off, Brain Freeze their deck away, pass the turn (Assuming you Meditated in here somewhere, they'll have to go again,) and watch them die during their draw step.

Be very cautious if trying this at 2 or less life, as it's easy to die from mana burn. Also note that this isn't a fixed plan to stick with once you start it, as there's always a chance you'll roll gracefully into the Flash of Insight / Cunning Wish combination to get the Stroke back.

There are times when almost anything is an acceptable play, and playing the deck perfectly requires you to be able to change your plan at a moment's notice. For example, if your plan was to Flash of Insight the Stroke back into your sideboard, and mid-combo you Meditate into Reset/Force/Island/Delta with no more draw in hand, then suddenly you have to shift plans and use that Flash of Insight to find a draw spell.

Keep your options open.

(EDIT: With all that sneaky shit, I can't believe Dave doesn't like Stroke. Stroke owns.)

[beezy]

Another question regarding the use of Stroke: Is it considered an "acceptable" play to wish for Stroke early in the combo when you have Twincast in your hand? Depending on the amount of mana at your disposal, it will result in much more cards than Meditate+Twincast.
Well it depends, normally I would do the Meditate + Twincast, as it's Wish(3) + Meditate(3)+Twincast(2), 8 mana for 8 cards. Stroke is Wish(3), Stroke(7), Twincast(2), 12 mana for 8 cards.

[Nihil Credo]

If you have the above 2 Tide/2 Reset/1 Turnabout/1 Wish hand with 5 land, You can go double Tide, Turnabout to tap all their creatures prior to Declaring Attackers. Then, Cunning Wish for Stroke, Reset with 1 floating, tap all your lands for 15 mana, Reset again with 14 floating, and Stroke for some respectable amount. Then you can go off, Brain Freeze their deck away, pass the turn (Assuming you Meditated in here somewhere, they'll have to go again,) and watch them die during their draw step.
In this situation, there's no reason to Turnabout all their creatures immediately. Just save 4 mana and go off while keeping Turnabout in hand. If at some point you get the chance to Flash-Wish back the Stroke of Genius and kill them on the spot, that's better than waiting a turn for them to die (and maybe pull off some sneaky stuff you hadn't noticed - like Vialing out a Sharpshooter during their upkeep). And an extra untap effect may be just what you need to do pull off the Stroke kill.

Turnabout for the Fog should always be the very last spell you cast (or second-to-last if you need storm), assuming they don't have Daring Apprentices or the like :)

[Obfuscate Freely]

Actually, in that (extreme) example, I think it's fine to just use the Turnabout to untap your lands, along with the Resets. I mean, it's worth another 11 cards off of Stroke. Finding another Turnabout to Fog with won't be difficult.

I'd like to add that I've found Stroke to be a more useful draw spell than Dave has, as well. If you have a Tide and multiple untap effects, Wishing for Stroke will often be an almost guaranteed win.

[Happy Gilmore]

I'd like to add that I've found Stroke to be a more useful draw spell than Dave has, as well.

Last weekend in game 1 Dave strokes himself for 22-25 and proceeds to pick them up one at a time, gloating over the power of each card....what a dick.

I think D.G. understands its power as a draw spell just fine, although, maybe he downplays that role to serve his own devious plans. As you said, if Stroke resolves the Solidarity player has a very slim chance of loosing that game.

[BeeblesofLife]

I know this may be a little off topic but...What would the optimal mono blue list be?
I dont want to start an arguement on this forum, just a good simple list would be fine, thanks!

[Tacosnape]

My demonstration with Turnabout was only meant to show that Turnabout for Fog could be used as a means to kill if you should use the Stroke for draw. I wasn't intending to claim that was the best point to play it. I would indeed wait until last.

As for using it to go ahead and untap assuming I hit the other Turnabout, that's a very good point in the instance that you intend to use the Stroke to draw.


I know this may be a little off topic but...What would the optimal mono blue list be?
I dont want to start an arguement on this forum, just a good simple list would be fine, thanks!

12 Island
6 Fetchlands (3/3 Split, but 4/2 isn't a huge deal)

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Meditate
5 Opt/Peek/Think Twice/Twincast (Standard build runs 2/2/0/1 respectively. A lot of this is metagame and comfort.)
4 Brainstorm
3 Turnabout
3 Cunning Wish
4 Remand
4 Force of Will
4 Impulse
2 Flash of Insight
2 Brain Freeze

SB:
4 Hydroblast
3 Twincast
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Brain Freeze/Wipe Away/Pongify/other flexible situation card.

A lot of people run slight variations. I run 4 Opts and skip Peek. Some people run a third Brain Freeze over the Twincast. Some people run additional Twincasts over Remands (But meh the last one, Remand owns.)

[barron]

Not that it really makes a difference, but I have found the 4-2 pitch land set-up superior to the 3-3 because in game 1 thresh players needle polluted delta since they have nothing better to do with it. That and spare the occasional affinity build the decks that tend to run pithing needle also tend to run 4 flooded strands.

Also, what are people's opinions on pongify? I have playtested it a little bit, but I keep going back and forth as to what I think it is. The two big competing reasons as to why I like it are because it rids a meddling mage and stops the disruption of a first turn hippie, which really comes in handy when you are on the draw.

The problems I have with it are:
it is too inconsisntent in taking out that first turn hippie
it doesn't have great synergy with the deck and affects comboing
As a cunning wish target I find it almost never being superior to just a bounce spell, even on a mage.

Right now my SB is
3 Hydroblast
3 Twincast
2 Snap
1 Strok of Genius
1 Chain of vapor
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Tolarian Winds

I want to adjust my SB, but I don't have a lot of free time and can't get as much testing in as I would like, and won't be able to for the next month or so.

I will just address the obvious real quick.

Snap: Sucks as a single, but two makes it pretty decent. I like the card because it is a bounce that doesn't severly (or in my experience even noticeabely) affect comboing out. Against thresh my plan is -4 Remand -1 turnabout for +3 Twincast +2 Snap. This set up lets me routinely combo out through a mage on tide and 2 counterspells, with sometimes only 5 lands. The snap lets me fully commit and still have mana afterwards to combo.
I also like it because against other decks like Red Death and B/W disruption it gives me more answers to an early hippie and can buy me a turn. It also lets me sometimes combo out a bit early since the 4cc turnabout can rather be overpriced in those matches until you are already comboing out, and like turnabout it can act like a fog.
I have found that having more bounce makes post SB games more consistent and allows me to keep bounce in the SB.

Hydroblast: I upped it to 3, but I haven't gone ti 4 since I have drawing them *and* FOW *and* lands mid combo (see tolarian winds), and because a lot of goblin decks are running chalice now, which makes me want to keep the weak draws to a minimum. I also think it is advantageous for goblins to run chalice because of the other combo decks, which makes me think that in later rounds the chalice goblins are the ones i will be hitting.

Tolarian winds: This card, or chain of vapor, are probably going to be the first to leave my SB, but that is not to say I do not like the cards. Tolarian winds is a card that will only be wished for once in a blue moon (after drawin nothing but lands) but has always turned a losing hand (especially when it's 9 cards) to a game winner. I have never lost a game after playing the card, which is more than i can say for the other cards in the SB. [I have also regone through the thread and the card was never really discredited so much as forgotten]

COV: I used to have this out and have 2 E.truths instead, but some people caught on and quit chalicing for one and went straight for the juggular. After that i switched back, but I still find it to be fairly weak.

Now this brings me to another question. How is the matchup against EPIC storm? I know anyone that plays it and I don't have the cards, or really the time to test against it. I assume it generally plays like a match would against iggy-pop, which I have tested extensively, but the decks look like they can play very differently. A secondary reason why I wanted another E.Truth in the SB was because, from what I have read, it's wins against solidarity have been from first turn ETW. This deck is also why I have 3 Hydroblasts, i assume it comes in handy against burning wish.

[Reagens]

I think I am going to test Tolarian winds. I am having a lot of difficulties lately with the consistency of the deck. It may even have very nice synergy with flash of insight.
The reason why I think it's viable is because goblins are pretty much extinct in our metagame (along with ********), since I never board my hydroblasts I think I can use the slots in a better way.
I went to a tournament yesterday and there was ONE player with red ******** and ONE with goblins. It was a tournament of 28 people.
I lost to red ******** in the quarters because of a mana screw and a mana flow (I mulled to 6 and 5 respectively). Second game I started with 2 lands and despite 2 brainstorms and a shuffle effect I got nothing...
What are results from other people who have already tested this card?

[Lukas Preuss]

Tolarian Winds was tested back in 2005 and found to be not good enough and too situational. I don't see why it should be better in the modern builds of Solidarity or the current metagame.

[barron]

Agreed, but in 2005 the typical strategy was to also have 2 brainfreezes in the sideboard. Their absence allows a little more breathing room in the SB, now.

[Lukas Preuss]

Actually, in 2005, people played 3 Brain Freeze in the maindeck since Remand wasn't in the deck and Landstill was considered tier 1. There was less room in the sideboard, because seven or eight blue blasts were sided in against Goblins.

But still, if you're comboing out and need to wish for a draw spell, Meditate would be almost always strictly better than Tolarian Winds (how often does it actually happen that you have more than four cards, which are only lands, in your hand?). The only time when Tolarian Winds was played was when the deck ran a 15-card wishboard... I never missed the card after I cut it back in the day.

[noobslayer]

It should be known that (as far as I know) Herbig and I prefer 4 opt over the opt/peek split.

I can also attest, that in the mirror that me and nantuko_shady played last weekend, Opt was key in early card advantage and quality. Every time he used peek on me, he only saw the absolute nut high hands.

[Tacosnape]

Actually, in 2005, people played 3 Brain Freeze in the maindeck since Remand wasn't in the deck and Landstill was considered tier 1. There was less room in the sideboard, because seven or eight blue blasts were sided in against Goblins.


I actually still run the third Freeze. And the 4 Opts. I just never go around trumpeting the fact that I do online because I mostly do so as a personal choice and doubt that it's optimal. Still, I always found I was more comfortable with three freezes.

[barron]

I should probably clear up my position on the winds. Meditate is strickly better and there have only been two occasions that come to mind when I wish for the winds over the meditate. As i said in my post it isn't often that i use the card, but there are those times...and I *know* all of you have experienced it, when you lose a match simply because you are drawing into total crap. I started to realize a substantial portion of my losses were because of the deck "fizzling", including with twincasted meditates. And the problem of dead draws only becomes worst post sb (unless you side in twincasts).

The times i use the card are when i draw into nothing but land, force of will [when i know it is no longer needed], hydroblasts, with my only draws being the lone brainstorm or opt/peek, and when I have already wished for the meditate.

I am not saying the winds is an auto-include in any SB, or even a great draw spell, but there are those occasions when another draw spell is needed in the wish board and, when that need arises, it is usually because you drew into a lot of crap.

I can understand why you may not need the card as much if you rin 4 opts to the 2/2 split, but I think peeks are great.

The reason I think the card is needed is because peek is really a crapshoot, along with remand and to some extent opt, when sculpting you hand, Brainstorm is great at sculpting, but i find it is less than great when that is the strong draw spell in your hand. It can save you, but even when you draw an impulse or meditate you know you are getting two crap cards that you don't want (unless you brainstorm them off), which means the two other cards have to be great, which doesn't always happen.

Wishing for the winds is like wishing for the turnabout [for mana], you have to plan ahead a little for it to work or be optimal, you have to plan ahead. You have to know the cards you have drawn, what is left in the deck, and how much of the deck is left, in order to abuse it correctly, which is why I very rarely grab it over the meditate.

Those reasons are why, when I use it, I use it with a hand of lands, flashes, opts, peeks, forces, hydroblasts, remands, and braintorms, which usually turns the hand into meditates, resets, turnabouts, impulses, and twincasts...the good stuff.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

It should be known that (as far as I know) Herbig and I prefer 4 opt over the opt/peek split.

I can also attest, that in the mirror that me and nantuko_shady played last weekend, Opt was key in early card advantage and quality. Every time he used peek on me, he only saw the absolute nut high hands.


Boo hisss, that match was annoying. Remember to keep in mind that I had probably the worst Meditates in teh world g1 when I had you in a corner with your mana pool emptied, and all your lands tapped.

However, I will credit Opt for making a big difference in that match. Although I had access to seeing his hand, he was able to cast about 3 Opts per game pre-combo, thus making his hand superior to mine. Whereas I only cast 1 Opt and maybe a Peek.

[noobslayer]

That match basically boiled down to me having to count on you making certain plays to account for my lower land count. But when that first reset resolved that was cast way the hell early in the game, I knew I had it.

Game two was a lot better though in my opinion. My hand was nuts from the start, and my early cantrips, compared to your zero until turn four, made a huge difference. I won't lie, I got lucky when you brainfreezed me. If I didn't see twincast off the interrupted flash, I would've lost right there because of that stroke.

The mirror was my favorite match all day, and you definitely made me earn my win.

A note about side boards, I'm looking at a lot of varying options, but cards I know that are secure in the board are:
3 Twincast
1 Brainfreeze
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate

I'm going to be testing different bounce configurations, if I need access to all four brainfreeze post-board, and what the alternate four of should be in the board.

[Reagens]

Tolarian Winds was tested back in 2005 and found to be not good enough and too situational. I don't see why it should be better in the modern builds of Solidarity or the current metagame.

I agree that it would be one of the weaker slots but look at it from my perspective. In 12 rounds of legacy spread over 2 different tournaments and even two different countries I never once boarded or should have boardered in my hydroblasts.
I could have boarded them in in possibly one match because my opponent played red elemental blast (he played blue-red), but I refuse to believe that that would have been my best option because it would only help me in a counterwar and not to remove any of his threats.
What I did notice was that I lost games due to drawing 4 good cards with impulse and vice versa with meditate. I want to give tolarian winds a chance to prove itself in my wishboard. Or that I lost games holding pretty much al the land that was left in the deck pre combo and not a single untap effect.
I believe that 1 single twincast maindeck is also very situational and I very seldomly regretted having that card in my hand.
I hate losing to easy match ups because I just get stuck with too much land or spells I don't need. If I can get an extra advantage over that kind of decks of which there are a lot here in my meta and lose a substantial percentage post-board against goblins of which there are virtually none then my choice is made.

[solidarity!]

Hello guys,

I have a testing partner and he plays burn and he is going to side in 4 sirocco 2 gaea's blessing against me and he is gonna play 4 or 2 maindeck overmaster and i am a bit worried about 4 sirocco and overmaster combined and blessing is rarely a point and i know alot about the burn matchup and it comes down to the solidarity players skill.

Do you got any advice about sideboarding and playing?

I play the red version with one volcanic island main and sideboard sudden shock and urza's rage.

[Tacosnape]

Hello guys,

I have a testing partner and he plays burn and he is going to side in 4 sirocco 2 gaea's blessing against me and he is gonna play 4 or 2 maindeck overmaster and i am a bit worried about 4 sirocco and overmaster combined and blessing is rarely a point and i know alot about the burn matchup and it comes down to the solidarity players skill.

Do you got any advice about sideboarding and playing?

I play the red version with one volcanic island main and sideboard sudden shock and urza's rage.

First of all, this situation probably won't ever arise in any sort of real tournament, because if you win your first match you're almost guaranteed to never see any burn deck that maindecks something as pointless in burn as Overmaster.

As he's running Overmaster in burn, I'm largely assuming he's not very smart, and therefore not smart enough to try and lure you into countering Overmaster by playing an Overmaster when he doesn't have the Sirocco. Likewise, if you counter the Overmaster, I doubt he's slick enough to figure you countered it because you may have a second counter.

Board in your Hydroblasts, obviously. Let all 1 for 3's hit until you're in trouble. Blast any Siroccos you see, as well as other potentially harmful things (Pillar, Ball Lightning, etc.) If you're loaded on counters when you see Overmaster, go ahead and counter it.

If you run Peek, it's also a great response to Overmaster to let you know if he's got the Sirocco or not.

As for Gaea's Blessing, it sounds like this guy has no real plans to make any decent deck and is just trying to hate on you. Counter his heavy burn and let him burn you down, and buy as much time as possible to finish him off with Freeze and Stroke.

[Ewokslayer]

Hello guys,

I have a testing partner and he plays burn and he is going to side in 4 sirocco 2 gaea's blessing against me and he is gonna play 4 or 2 maindeck overmaster and i am a bit worried about 4 sirocco and overmaster combined and blessing is rarely a point and i know alot about the burn matchup and it comes down to the solidarity players skill.

Do you got any advice about sideboarding and playing?

I play the red version with one volcanic island main and sideboard sudden shock and urza's rage.

How is having a burn deck boarding cards that are only good against Solidarity and playing horrible maindeck cards valid testing?
The simple solution is countering the sirocco's with Hydroblast if you can and if you can't due to overmaster responding to it by decking him and then letting the sirocco resolve. You can always respond to the Overmaster with decking him as that will kill him, assuming no blessing which in theory you don't know about before hand. Once you know he boards in blessing or he tells you, you can either continue the combo and then wish for the stroke or as he is a burn player you should probably kill him with a twincasted kicked urza's rage and show him how to really burn a player out.

The other solution is to test relevant matchups.

[Tacosnape]

as he is a burn player you should probably kill him with a twincasted kicked urza's rage and show him how to really burn a player out.

That's a hilarious idea. I wish I could see someone's face when that happens.

But, yeah, seriously. I'm willing to bet that no serious deck in existence has ever run Overmaster and Sirocco, and Burn running either Overmaster or Gaea's Blessing is just about the stupidest thing I've ever heard of in my life. At one of our local tournaments a guy was playing a bad anti-solidarity deck with maindecked True Believers, Price of Glory, Red Elemental Blast, and Sword of Fire and Ice to make the TB unbounceable. I didn't get to play him (I was playing U/G Solidarity and went undefeated), but I didn't have the heart to tell him that Price of Glory didn't hurt Solidarity at all.

[Lukas Preuss]

I agree that it would be one of the weaker slots but look at it from my perspective. In 12 rounds of legacy spread over 2 different tournaments and even two different countries I never once boarded or should have boardered in my hydroblasts.

Okay, sure, if you're playing in a weird metagame, you can play whatever you like (whatever fits your metagame). For example, if your metagame consisted mostly of White Weenie with maindeck True Believer and Mother of Runes, you should definitely run Evacuation in the board.

But, if you're asking things like this in this thread, people are going to assume that you are playing in a "normal" metagame, where Goblins and red hate (Pyrostatic Pillar, etc.) are a factor. I don't know about these tournaments that you went to, but I think I can guarantee you that major tournaments in the benelux countries (like that one in Utrecht next month) will certainly see Goblins as a metagame factor.

[Eldariel]

First of all, this situation probably won't ever arise in any sort of real tournament, because if you win your first match you're almost guaranteed to never see any burn deck that maindecks something as pointless in burn as Overmaster.

As he's running Overmaster in burn, I'm largely assuming he's not very smart, and therefore not smart enough to try and lure you into countering Overmaster by playing an Overmaster when he doesn't have the Sirocco. Likewise, if you counter the Overmaster, I doubt he's slick enough to figure you countered it because you may have a second counter.

Board in your Hydroblasts, obviously. Let all 1 for 3's hit until you're in trouble. Blast any Siroccos you see, as well as other potentially harmful things (Pillar, Ball Lightning, etc.) If you're loaded on counters when you see Overmaster, go ahead and counter it.

If you run Peek, it's also a great response to Overmaster to let you know if he's got the Sirocco or not.

As for Gaea's Blessing, it sounds like this guy has no real plans to make any decent deck and is just trying to hate on you. Counter his heavy burn and let him burn you down, and buy as much time as possible to finish him off with Freeze and Stroke.

Uncounterability isn't very good against Solidarity as you can still go off in response to the spell that can't be countered. Only really fearsome play would be turn 3 Overmaster>Sirocco when you don't hold 2 counters.

[Occisor]

Hi all,
Sorry it's taken a while to post this, I went to A GP trial and bombed out horribly, here's a general summary though of my matches, I have awful notes that I scribbled down after the match so I apologise for the lack of detail.

Match 1

1st turn my opponent drops a polluted delta, 2nd turn drops a flooded strand. Some friends had done some scouting before the tourney start and told me there were 3 other Solidarity/Spring tide decks around so I assume it was the mirror. He pops the fetchlands for a tundra and an underground sea and plays confidant. I brainstorm into a FOW, but he has the daze. Next turn he drops a Jotun grunt and I wish for a meditate. He then drops a meddling mage naming high-tide and beats me down before I can do anything to stop him.
The second game was practically a re-run of the first as I can't break through his control elements, he even has stifle MD to kill my fetch lands!

Afterwards we shake hands and he comments on how heavily the match up is in his failure, I agree with him and say that at least that's the worst matchup out of the way - for some reason he laughs and we go our separate ways. I later find out it's because two of his friends are playing similar decks.


Match 2

We shuffle up and get started; I'm playing someone I had chatted to on a UK-based forum so we knew each in passing. For his first turn play he drops a divining top so I have no clue what I’m up against, I play a brainstorm at the end of his turn. He tries to follow it up with a counterbalance but I have the force for it. I impulse at the end of his turn, - with a meditate and reset in hand all I’m after is land and a high tide to go off. He untaps and plays a chalice set at one. Now I need to try and find a cunning wish a well before I can go off. Meddling mage comes down the next turn before I can find and cast it. He then proceeds to beat me down with Mishra’s factories.
In the second game, I manage to force a chalice, but he gets 2 mages down in the same turn, naming cunning wish and reset. I’ve boarded in and managed to draw extra twincasts so proceed to go off in my own turn using turnabouts for a mini storm of about 40 cards. He can’t beat me down before he runs out of cards.
For the final game, I try and mulligan into a hand with a FOW, eventually going down to 5 cards. I manage to force the 1st mage, but since I’m so low on cards I can’t assemble the combo since he dazes and counterspells enough of my draw spells before getting a chalice and mage down.


Match 3

I get to play 1st and play out a land, passing the turn. My opponent plays 1st turn lackey which I force. Next turn he plays out a wasteland and an aether vial. For a couple of turns we both sit there, he adds another wasteland to his board and plays a matron searching up a pile driver which is played via the vial. I’m sculpting my hand and go off in response to him playing a recruiter the following turn.
I board in hydroblasts for game 2. He gets a turn 1 lackey down but I blast it. Piledriver comes down the next turn while I start digging. He plays out a warchief and starts attacking, while I carry on with the brainstorm/impulse plan. A couple of turns later I am about to die, I go off with lethal damage on the stack and thankfully don’t fizzle. I was quite lucky since I had to brainfreeze myself and flashback insight to get the wish for stroke.


Match 4

I’m paired up against one of the guys I came up in the car with, so I’m fairly confidant of winning the game since he’s running a deck composed of one-drop goblins and burn spells. Game one I combo out with lethal damage on the stack. Game two I board in hydroblasts – and nearly die mid-combo due to a fireblast. Luckily I carried on with the spell on the stack and manage to dig up a hydroblast before leaving him to take his next turn with no cards in his deck.


Match 5
This is the last match of the Swiss portion; I’m eighth on tie breakers so if I win I make top 8. Pairings are put up and I sit down, only to face yet another WUB fish deck. There’s very little I can do to pull a win out, I go for the “several small brainfreezes” but I can’t get through the meddling mages, chalices, Flows and dazes to win.

All in all I had a good tourney, placing 12th which was disappointing. The three people I lost to ended up taking 1st, 2nd and third so I feel slightly better. With hindsight maybe the red splash version would have done better but I found wishing for an answer through disruption too slow so I don’t know that it would have helped that much.
The metagame seemed horribly skewed, 4x high tide decks, 4xfish-type decks out of 18 players seems pretty unusual, especialy when you consider that there was no threshold and only 2x goblins. The rest of the decks were homebrew or ported extended decks, I think this reflects that the format in the UKL is still in it's infancy.

[noobslayer]

That is very odd indeed. If fish has you down you can still try to green splash for determined. In that match dropping a Tropical Island can often bluff game one into them thinking you're playing threshold.

You could also try playing more twincasts maindeck too, but I think that would need some testing. Also in these metas, you can play 2 Peek over 2 Opt, I know Nantuko_Shady and Gearhart would likely advocate this course of action.

[Lego]

A couple of turns later I am about to die, I go off with lethal damage on the stack.....Game one I combo out with lethal damage on the stack.

There's really no reason to combo out with damage on the stack, unless that damage is burn that you didn't anticipate. You should combo out before they declare attackers, so that if you can't find wish for a Stroke, a Turnabout on their men will often suffice.

[ForceofWill]

He means a burn spell that is on the stack that would kill him. Making turnabout useless.

[Occisor]

In both cases, I had most of the componants I needed to combo out but felt that I needed more time/extra land - vs the weird red deck, I thought his last burn spell would only deal 3 when I was at 4. To be honest I'm no 100% certain why I did it vs gobbos since my notes were so bad, but I agree that it's usualy better to go off before!!

Whilst the peek would certainly help (wish I'd gone that way anyhow), even with a green splash, I'm finding that battling through the counters in a fish deck combined with the chalice/mage MD, just cripples the deck. I actually boarded in extra twincasts and they were helpfull, but at the end of the day the deck just can't handle 8-12 counters, 4 chalice and 4 Mage when they're maindeck.

That being said, I'm planning on taking the deck to a tourney on the 7th so maybe I'll fare a little better. I think that had my pairings been slightly better I'd have had a better chance at the top 8.

Out of interst, has anyone tested against stax? I've done none at all and myself and test group have no idea how to play it properly to test against!

[dre4m]

Out of interst, has anyone tested against stax? I've done none at all and myself and test group have no idea how to play it properly to test against!

I have tested against stax, and it is generally a very tough matchup. They maindeck all kinds of wonderful hate for you, including Trinisphere, Chalice, and Pithing Needle. Sometimes you're even lucky enough to see Suppression Field. Unless you can counter all of the hate cards they draw and still be able to go off, you're going to lose pretty quick, as a Stack and a trinisphere will probably seal the deal. In the version which I prefer, which had Trinisphere, Chalice, and Suppression Field, solidarity was always my favourite matchup in the tournament, and I would board in Rule of Law, too, for good measure. If you somehow manage to get enough land to go off and they don't have Chalice/Trini/Sphere of Resistance/Rule of Law, then you can just kill them in response to a Smokestack. Good luck!

[Silverdragon]

I’m sculpting my hand and go off in response to him playing a recruiter the following turn.

Goblin Recruiter is banned afaik. Did you mean Goblin Ringleader?

Concerning the Stax matchup just try to counter Smokestack and Armageddon/Wildfire if they have it, try to get as many lands into play as possible then wish for bounce and go off. Usually one Rebuild is enough unless they also have something like Rule of Law. With enough lands you can sometimes even ignore their Trinisphere.
Peek is also very nice because you can see whether they have land destruction or not and use your counters at the appropriate times.
Anyway it is still a hard matchup because sometimes they can just lock you down before you get to do anything.
In testing I usually board out two 1cc spells (Opts or Peeks) for 1 Meditate and 1 Bounce (most of the time Rebuild). If you know they have Defense Grid consider boarding in 1 Turnabout too.
Right now I'm testing -3 Cunning Wish +2 Brainfreeze, +1 Bounce(Echoing Truth) in addition to the other changes however I'm not sure how much the Cunning Wish is needed to increase your virtual number of bouncespells.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I'm not sure I would board in 1x Rebuild against Stax. Generally the one of's in the sideboard are meant to be Cunning Wished for, and the odds of seeing the 1x Rebuild during a game are much slimmer than having it in the board for Cunning Wish to find. With Trinisphere and Chalice on 1 or 2, Cunning Wish is still not affected, so you shouldn't have a problem casting it. I would keep the Cunning Wishes in, and side in Echoing Truth after game 1.

[dre4m]

Shady has a point, stick with the boarded wish targets... the one-ofs won't help you under the lock peices. Either board multiples of bounce or just cross your fingers...

[Taurelin]

You should combo out before they declare attackers, so that if you can't find wish for a Stroke, a Turnabout on their men will often suffice.

I wonder if that really makes a difference. Tournabouting their creatures instead of finishing them off probably means that you are fizzling in the middle of your combo. In that case, you will normally have tried everything, including Meditate. So you skip your next turn anyway, and they can simply attack again.

It is only an emergency safety button in case you have already proceeded with the combo up to a sufficient storm count for Brain Freeze.

[Tacosnape]

Whilst the peek would certainly help (wish I'd gone that way anyhow), even with a green splash, I'm finding that battling through the counters in a fish deck combined with the chalice/mage MD, just cripples the deck. I actually boarded in extra twincasts and they were helpfull, but at the end of the day the deck just can't handle 8-12 counters, 4 chalice and 4 Mage when they're maindeck.

Out of interst, has anyone tested against stax? I've done none at all and myself and test group have no idea how to play it properly to test against!

It's true, you can only battle through so much, and decks with gazillions of dedicated combo hate cards are always going to be favored against you. You can scheme around Mage, you can scheme around Chalice, you can scheme around anything, but while Solidarity can survive any single card, it capitulates to a broad array of moderately disruptive cards.

Determined will solve both Chalice and Counters (But not Stifle, so watch out for it since you can't Remand your Freeze.) Sudden Shock and Urza's Rage nail Meddling Mage. Remand and Force of Will solve a little of everything. If I face ridiculous amounts of hate and lose, so be it.

As for Stax, I have tested against godloads of Stax. Angel Stax, Wildfire Stax, Sun Tower, Vindistax, Ironstax, and Milon's Secret Castle. Solidarity versus Stax is one of my favorite matches in existence from the perspective of Solidarity. It's challenging and fun. It ranks only below 4C Landstill vs. RGBSA for matches I seriously enjoy.

Shady has the right idea. You don't board in the Rebuild. You do board in the Echoing Truth if you like, especially if you're seeing enchantments like Rule of Law which you can't tag with Rebuild. Other than Rule, Don't counter anything that doesn't hurt your manabase. This includes Tangle Wire, Chalice, and Suppression Field if you have two lands to pay for the popping of the fetchland. Smokestack you counter unless you're planning on rebuilding before you'll have to start sacrificing lands. Ditto with Armageddon.

The only real hard decision as to what to counter involves Trinisphere. I'll always Force it if I have 0 lands, and any time I have 1-2 lands and am a bit land short. The reason for this is that if Smokestack follows the Sphere, you have to be able to deal with it or you lose. Even if you don't have the second counter, it's better to stop the 3-Sphere and make the opponent contemplate waiting on the Smokestack than it is to not be able to Force the Smokestack because you don't have 3 mana to pay for Force.

You're in control in this match. Let resolve what you don't fear, counter what you do. Sculpt when you can. Wish for your Rebuild. When you're ready, Rebuild EOT, Untap, Draw, Play a land if you draw one, pass, and combo off when they try to do anything.

[noobslayer]

Tacosnape hit all the good points in my limited testing vs stax decks. Although I (I'm probably the only player) prefer the mirror-match over everything else. It's really a test of everything that you represent as a player. Prioritizing your plays, correct mulliganing, mind games, stack manipulation. Everything.

[Bahamuth]

What is taken out of the mainboard/sideboard for the Bound/Determineds? I'd like to try it, now I just realized it's good against Chalice too. I never noiced that before.

[Tacosnape]

What is taken out of the mainboard/sideboard for the Bound/Determineds? I'd like to try it, now I just realized it's good against Chalice too. I never noiced that before.

My Green-build board looks like this:

4 Bound//Determined
3 Hydroblast
1 Twincast
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Chain of Vapor/Krosan Grip (I fluctuate a lot on this)
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild

I also maindeck a Twincast. 1 Main and 1 Board is sufficient when you're taking the burden of being the counterspell-fighter off of Twincast. I'd never run without Twincast at all, though, as it's too randomly awesome.

My maindeck build is pretty standard beyond that. I run the 4 Opts over the Peeks, as Determined will often get you the information you need.

[Lego]

I wonder if that really makes a difference. Tournabouting their creatures instead of finishing them off probably means that you are fizzling in the middle of your combo. In that case, you will normally have tried everything, including Meditate. So you skip your next turn anyway, and they can simply attack again.

It is only an emergency safety button in case you have already proceeded with the combo up to a sufficient storm count for Brain Freeze.

It really does make a difference, trust me. If you combo off before they declare attackers you simply have more options, and there's no reason not to give yourself more options. You don't have to hold back a Cunning Wish knowing that you need one to find the Stroke for the win. You can use Stroke on yourself and not need to find a Flash of Insight and another Cunning Wish to win. The fact is, when they have lethal damage on the board, Brain Freeze won't win it for you. You need to Freeze and then Stroke them, or Freeze and then Turnabout the men. If there's lethal damage on the stack Turnabout doesn't help there.

Granted, it is always better to end the game with Stroke. Turnabout after Brain Freeze gives your opponent more ways to win, but there's no reason to not at least give yourself that option just in case.

[Van Phanel]

Hi, I'm a first-time poster here, but I'm reading here for a month by now and I have a little tournament report and some questions.

At first: I'm living in Germany, so please excuse problems with the language.

I'm quite lucky as I live like only 60 miles from Munich and there's a legacy tournament with 20-30 participants each Saturday. The only bad thing about it is that the meta is unpredictable, but that also makes it more challenging. The only thing you can always assume is that there will be no or at most one grow. This week I chose to run Solidarity again after not playing it for a month or so. As there were 8 U-W-B-Fish players in 29 people last week, I decided to go with the red splash for sudden shocks to combat them. Turned out that this week there were two decks running meddling mage in 25 people, but the lone Volcanic never hurt so I'll probably stick with it in the future.

This is the deck as it is at the moment:

1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted delta
3 Flooded Strand (going to seven fetchies because of the red splash)
10 Island

4 High Tide
4 Opt (I don't like Peek as Opt just offers the better cantrip)
4 Brainstorm
4 Reset
4 Remand
4 Impulse
2 Flash of Insight
2 Brain Freeze
1 Twincast
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will

SB:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Twincast
1 Brain Freeze
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Wipe Away (I own only 2 Twincast, this is the slot for the third)
4 Hydroblast
3 Sudden Shock (I own no Urza's Rage, should be 2 Sudden Shock, 1 Rage)



Round 1
against a player playing his first tournament playing elves

Game1 he starts of with a Llanowar Elf, enchants it with Regeneration and proceeds to attack me for 1 a turn. He then adds Elvish Archers and two turns before he would have gone lethal I have six lands in play and holding 2 Tide, Reset, Turnabout, FoW, Meditate and Cunning Wish and I easily finished him off probably a little bit too careful in fear for a blessing.

Game 2 he starts quite fast with Turn 1 Llanowar Elf, Turn 2 another + Taunting Elf, Turn 3 Elvish Champion, Turn 4 Elvish Archers and I even miss a landdrop and have to combo off 3 lands, Tide, Reset, Meditate, Flash, Brain Freeze, Wish and another card. As the Meditate reveals Tide #2 + Turnabout + Meditate the rest is pretty easy and I feel a bit sorry for him, as playing solidarity in the first ever Tournament game is not the best start one can have.

1-0-0

Round 2
against Marius Hausmann, a friend of mine playing fairie stompy.

Game 1 he has to mull to five due to no blue sources. Then he tries first turn Chalice for 1 which I force and I cantrip into everything I need and then go off in response to a second Chalice turn 6.

Game 2
I keep a hand of 2 land, FoW, Brain Freeze, Wish and 2 Cantrips. He has a second Turn Trinket Mage (off double Chrome Mox and Island) for Chalice which I Remand a turn later as he's stuck on three mana. The next turn he plays a City and then Cloud of Fairies and then he tries for Chalice 1 again with four mana open. As I can read him pretty good i know there's something else (relevant for the Matchup) coming, so i let the chalice resolve as i already have the Wish for Rebuild. I'm proven correct as he goes for a Chalice 2 then, which also resolves. EOT I wish for Rebuild, the next turn cast Rebuild EOT. The turn after that i combo in response to his chalice 1 off 4 lands, Tide, Reset, 2 Meditate + Forcebackup.

2-0-0

Round 3
against TES

Game 1 he starts and knowing what he plays I keep 4 lands, FoW, Remand and Wish. He then thinks a little bit, then asks me if I have the Force. I tell him I indeed have it, but he doesn't believe me - bad for him as he tries to play Infernal Tutor saccing 2 LEDs. He ends up with nothing but a land and I draw into even more land and a Reset. I have 5 lands in play when in his turn 6 he tries for an unprotected Ill-Gotten Gains. In response I wish for Twincast, then Reset my lands and Twincast his Igg returning Twincast, Reset and Impulse going infinite.

Game 2 he has a first turn Burning Wish for Duress, second Turn Duress my only counter, a FoW and still turn 2 proceeds to kill me with a Stormcount of exactly 10.

Game 3 I start and keep a probable turn 3 - kill with Remand but without FoW. That promptly gets punished, when he resolves first turn Defense Grid. Luckily his hand didn't offer much more so I can simply cantrip during my turn and play land after land. In his turn 5 he gets to ETW for 10 goblins leaving a single card in his hand. In my turn I drop Land #5, play Wish for Truth and bounce his goblins. Then he goes for a Xantid Swarm 2 turns later which I let resolve and in my turn i combo off seven lands 2 High Tide and 2 Meditate. After the Meditates I find myself holding 2 Turnabout, Twincast and Wish so I stroke him for 30 and Twincast the Stroke.

3-0-0

Round 4
against Carlo Mazzurco playing "Turbolandstill" (U-G-W Landstill with Explorations, Horn of Greed and Blessing for Infinite Time Warps, but with only 4 FoW and 4 CS as Counters, i.e. an easy matchup)

Game 1 I take my time shaping a good hand as I know he has Blessings. At some point he has Confinement in play and I have already burned one wish for a Twincast which is always good against counters, so I have to find my 2 other Wishes for Echoing Truth and Stroke and then Stroke him to death. When he then drops a land having Horn of Greed in play I combo in response to the trigger. As he neither fights my High Tides nor my Untap effects, I know he has either no counter or no clue how to play the matchup. The combo plays out just as it should and when I stroke him for 60 he tries to force but I am of course able to force back and he has nothing else.

Game 2 I horribly misplay. I have a hand that could easily combo around 2 Counters but probably not around 3, he has 4 (!) Explorations in play and 2 Horn of Greed. when he plays a land after missing 2 drops I don't combo in response to the trigger. He of course draws into another land and a meddling mage which forces me to go off, but now he has seen 4 additional cards. In there were exactly the 2 Counterspells he needed to backup his lone Counterspell in hand and so he won.

Exactly then time was called and so I had drawed this due to being not focused enough (3 hours of sleep are not enough for playing solidarity, I fear).

3-0-1

Round 5
Gobbos-R-w

Game 1 he mulls to 5 and I force his Lackey and easily go off turn 6 in his begin of combat step when he has Lethal damage on the table.

Game 2 I don't find a High Tide in 26 cards so i loose without him having played any combohate.

Game 3 I force his turn 1 lackey, blast his turn 2 lackey and also blast his turn 4 pillar and therefore going of in his turn 6 or 7 is enough and no problem as I did find a High Tide this game.

4-0-1

2nd of 25 behind the "Turbolandstill"

I have to admit that I thought about giving up Solidarity, as i often just didn't find high tides in the top half of my deck but this little tournament made me trust in the deck again, so I know i can at least win the good matchups. I seemed to draw everything I needed the whole five rounds.

Then I have some questions:

1) Is it correct for Fairie Stompy to play the second Chalice on 2? He had only five mana in play, but thanks to the Cloud he could have tried for the Chalice 3 that turn and just play the other one set to 1 the next turn (not that it would have mattered in the actual game, just curious).

2) When is Starstorm useful enough to burn 1-2 untaps + Wish?

3) How do you guys goldfish the deck? I especially think of Remands here. I guess one could play it as 1U: Draw a Card, play this only during your opponents turn. And how do you determine when you should go off in goldfishing?

Thank you for any answers.

[largebrandon]

I really do like the idea of Determined. However, I do NOT like the idea of fetchlands in this deck. Repeat, i think that fetch lands are the devil in our deck, for a couple of reasons. Losing even 2 life from fetches can hurt you against aggro. More importantly, a well-timed stifle on your land can really set you back a huge amount!!

[kicks_422]

However, I do NOT like the idea of fetchlands in this deck. Repeat, i think that fetch lands are the devil in our deck, for a couple of reasons. Losing even 2 life from fetches can hurt you against aggro. More importantly, a well-timed stifle on your land can really set you back a huge amount!!

Uh, no. I don't have much experience with the deck, but I play it every once in a while so I can get a feel on how to beat it. Sure, Stifling a fetchland is a big deal, as well as those 1-2 points of self-inflicted damage, but they give the deck so much more by taking 2 lands out of the deck, as well as shuffling the deck after putting back useless cards with a Brainstorm.

Granted that the deck-thinning is minimal, I'd rather have that minimal chance than none at all, even when coupled with the cons that you have mentioned.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Then I have some questions:

1) Is it correct for Fairie Stompy to play the second Chalice on 2? He had only five mana in play, but thanks to the Cloud he could have tried for the Chalice 3 that turn and just play the other one set to 1 the next turn (not that it would have mattered in the actual game, just curious).

2) When is Starstorm useful enough to burn 1-2 untaps + Wish?

3) How do you guys goldfish the deck? I especially think of Remands here. I guess one could play it as 1U: Draw a Card, play this only during your opponents turn. And how do you determine when you should go off in goldfishing?

Thank you for any answers.


1.) Well, Chalice for one is generally always the first one layed down against Solidarity. It shuts down High Tide, thus making us HAVE to bounce it in order to go off with High Tide. If he chooses to cast the second Chalice for 2, then that shuts down Echoing Truth, but it doesn't touch Cunning Wish into Rebuild. Chalice of the Void for 3 would make it so you couldn't cast Cunning Wish at all, thus making it impossible to bounce the Chalice on 1 already in play. It's a tough call either way, it all depends on the game state and how many Cunning Wishes you have played etc. etc. It's the Faiere Stompy player's call, and you just react accordingly to their decision.


2.) I myself don't run the red splash, but I believe it is in there to take out little weenies, especially in Fish decks. A Starstorm can wipe the board against Fish, taking out Confidants, Meddling Mages etc. It is NOT meant to be played against Goblins as far as I know. Gearhart knows more about this...


3.) Solidarity is indeed a difficult deck to Goldfish, as Remand and Force of Will are both reactive cards. Also, the plays the deck makes are based off of game states, and various situations. (Lethal damage, cards seen off Peek, cards in opponent's hands, etc.) I find that goldfishing Solidarity does little to improve your skills with the deck. Goldfishing can only really help you learn as to how the deck "Goes Off" if your new with it. If you are set on goldfishing however, then I suppose you could pick a deck in your head that you are running up against, and roll a dice or something for certain creatures or spells that disrupt you. For example, roll a D6, and if the number is odd, then your opponent just casted a turn 1 Duress, or a turn two Meddling Mage. Sure it isn't 100% accurate, but it beats just playing against nobody and going off on something ridiculous like turn 10. Overall, I would advise to try and avoid goldfishing, as you will get too used to making certain plays, and that will narrow your skills with the deck in a real tournament.

[Tacosnape]

I really do like the idea of Determined. However, I do NOT like the idea of fetchlands in this deck. Repeat, i think that fetch lands are the devil in our deck, for a couple of reasons. Losing even 2 life from fetches can hurt you against aggro. More importantly, a well-timed stifle on your land can really set you back a huge amount!!

You list the one situation, Stifle, where you lose land as a result of a Fetchland. You don't, however, list all the situations where you don't lose land as a result of a fetchland. A deck seeking to buy time with Sinkhole, for instance, has to wait until you crack that fetchland, which you can do at your leisure.

[AnwarA101]

Isn't the most compelling reason for fetchlands in this deck is to be able to shuffle away undesired cards with Brainstorm? It also works with Impulse as well if you Impulse into 4 good cards you don't necessarily have 3 of them trapped at the bottom of your library.

[herbig]

I really do like the idea of Determined. However, I do NOT like the idea of fetchlands in this deck.

These two ideas are also mutually inclusive. You don't suggest running 4x tropical island, 4x rav dual do you?

[Tacosnape]

Isn't the most compelling reason for fetchlands in this deck is to be able to shuffle away undesired cards with Brainstorm? It also works with Impulse as well if you Impulse into 4 good cards you don't necessarily have 3 of them trapped at the bottom of your library.

Absolutely.

Also, moreso than any other deck in existence outside of decks packing Goblin Charbelcher, Solidarity benefits from deck thinning. Nothing throws a wrench in your plans like Meditating into 3 lands and a Turnabout when you need draw. Every fetchland cracked results in a smoother combo.

[realmlord]

We have been looking at testing a couple of Tolarian Winds as a replacement for 2 Opt/Peek. They eliminate some of the problems with multi-land hands when trying to combo out.

[noobslayer]

Except beyond that they're awful otherwise. Tolarian winds has been tested and suggested multiple times. I've even done it myself, and I'd ALWAYS rather have my opts.

As far as fetchlands go, this is probably (other than some 4c monstrosity) the deck that utilizes fetches the best. Not running them would almost be like leaving you resets home.

[Ewokslayer]

As far as fetchlands go, this is probably (other than some 4c monstrosity) the deck that utilizes fetches the best. Not running them would almost be like leaving you resets home.


I am pretty sure every single deck that has more than one color uses fetchlands better than Solidarity.
Fetchlands are only truly useful in combination with Brainstorm and occasionally Impulse.
It's land removal potential producing better draws is fairly insignificant.

[Tacosnape]

I am pretty sure every single deck that has more than one color uses fetchlands better than Solidarity.
Fetchlands are only truly useful in combination with Brainstorm and occasionally Impulse.
It's land removal potential producing better draws is fairly insignificant.

Eh. I agree and disagree.

You're completely right in that Fetchlands aren't as important here as they are in multicolored decks packing loads of nonbasics with twisted color requirements.

However, fetchlands also protect you from targeted land destruction. And the land removing potential isn't all that insignificant at all in a deck which tends to go through half of itself while going off.

[awbarry00]

So is the consensus now to run a green splash over a red or monoblue?

Also, one question about the green splash. Pretty early along in this thread (like first 10 pages or so), orim's chant was dissmissed from the deck. I honestly dont see why Bound//Determined is better in than chant. Yes, it cantrips, but thats irrelevant because if you resolve it, then you should be winning anyway. Plus, the fact that it shuts off any remands you draw, as now not only can you not remand your freezes, but your opponent is also not going to be playing many spells, other than say a stifle makes it seem like it almost hurts the deck to be playing it. I wouldnt go so far as to say that it is downright bad, but it seems, quite frankly, to be underpowered when compared to uncounterable mage removal+an alternate win, or a wasteland-proof manabase.

[emidln]

Why exactly do you want a green splash? The only thing that will out-counter you is Chalice, and Stax can easily play Chalice @ 2 just as easily as Chalice @ 1 to go with Chalice @ 3. If you were simply looking to play around countermagic, you can do that with mono blue or a white splash (which also gives removal for Meddling Mage if you want it). Also, the only thing that should have enough threat density to run Chalices and other major threats to you would be Stax (Faerie Stompy has essentially 12 problem cards in 4x force, 4x chalice, 4x mage to find chalice, but that's still not anywhere near the disruption even mono-white stax brings), and that really shouldn't be a metagame concern anywhere. So the question remains, why a green splash?

[Van Phanel]

The big advantage of Determined over Chant aside from the cantrip - which could be achieved with Abeyance - is, that it allows to play right through a chalice.

[emidln]

The big advantage of Determined over Chant aside from the cantrip - which could be achieved with Abeyance - is, that it allows to play right through a chalice.


No, it really doesn't. Instead of playing Chalice @ 1, I play Chalice @ 2 and Determined never resolves in the first place. Incidentally, this also takes away any Twincast tricks you could hope to try to get around a Chalice @ 3.

But again, this is only relevant against Stax, so why bother at all?

[Ewokslayer]

So is the consensus now to run a green splash over a red or monoblue?


There is no consensus splash. A few people run a green splash and some run the red.
I don't really see the green splash offering much.


Eh. I agree and disagree.

You're completely right in that Fetchlands aren't as important here as they are in multicolored decks packing loads of nonbasics with twisted color requirements.

However, fetchlands also protect you from targeted land destruction. And the land removing potential isn't all that insignificant at all in a deck which tends to go through half of itself while going off.
I don't think the protecting from LD is all that overpowering. Yes, they can't sinkhole the land but you can't use the land either. In addition you can't really use that trick unless you know they are playing LD; as leaving a fetch uncracked leaves you open to LD from Stifle.
Obviously, fetchlands are great to have out when you both know they are playing LD and don't need the mana to sculpt your hand. But the amount of times that occurs isn't a reason to include fetchlands. It is a side benefit.
As is the deck-thinning. Neither benefit is strong enough on its own to really force the inclusion of fetchlands. If brainstorm let you shuffle after it resolved if you wanted to I don't believe the deck would play fetchlands, color splash not withstanding.

[awbarry00]

The big advantage of Determined over Chant aside from the cantrip - which could be achieved with Abeyance - is, that it allows to play right through a chalice.

So the reason for the green splash is to beat chalice of the void? Is chalice really that prevalent that it warrants splashing answers to chalice over answers to meddling mage?

I understand that Determined is generally good against control decks, like landstill, but the majority of the field is still Goblins. You can make a very safe bet that, when you play at a major tournament, aggro in general will make up a huge portion of the field. Determined is not even good against combo decks in the way that chant was, in that with chant you could respond to a IGG/Mind's Desire/key accelerant with a chant, and effectively counter multiple spells for W. Determined is only good against control decks and thresh, and considering that the sideboard for this deck is only about 7-8 cards big (the rest being the wishboard), four slots seems like a large amount of space to dedicate to a card that doesnt answer the biggest problem that this deck faces, which is Meddling Mage, or Meddling Mage backed up by counterspells (aka Thresh). To me, it seems like the incredibly limited amount of sideboard space available to this deck should be dedicated to either beating the majority of the field, or adressing the biggest weakness of the deck. Determined seems like it does neither, so I think the appropriate question to ask is whether it's actually the optimal card, and therefore color, if this is all that is gained from it.

[Tacosnape]

Why exactly do you want a green splash? The only thing that will out-counter you is Chalice, and Stax can easily play Chalice @ 2 just as easily as Chalice @ 1 to go with Chalice @ 3. If you were simply looking to play around countermagic, you can do that with mono blue or a white splash (which also gives removal for Meddling Mage if you want it). Also, the only thing that should have enough threat density to run Chalices and other major threats to you would be Stax (Faerie Stompy has essentially 12 problem cards in 4x force, 4x chalice, 4x mage to find chalice, but that's still not anywhere near the disruption even mono-white stax brings), and that really shouldn't be a metagame concern anywhere. So the question remains, why a green splash?


So is the consensus now to run a green splash over a red or monoblue?

Also, one question about the green splash. Pretty early along in this thread (like first 10 pages or so), orim's chant was dissmissed from the deck. I honestly dont see why Bound//Determined is better in than chant. Yes, it cantrips, but thats irrelevant because if you resolve it, then you should be winning anyway. Plus, the fact that it shuts off any remands you draw, as now not only can you not remand your freezes, but your opponent is also not going to be playing many spells, other than say a stifle makes it seem like it almost hurts the deck to be playing it. I wouldnt go so far as to say that it is downright bad, but it seems, quite frankly, to be underpowered when compared to uncounterable mage removal+an alternate win, or a wasteland-proof manabase.

Since I was the one who first proposed the Green Splash, let me do a lot of elaborating. I don't claim the Green splash to be the superior build, merely one worthy of attention. It addresses the deck's problems differently than other builds, and there are given matchups where I'd prefer any given build between Green, White, Red, or no splashes. So the following is merely meant to explain my rationale for the green splash.

Green Splashing is by no means the consensus. I would dare say that if anything is the consensus right now, no splash is still consensus.
Red offers actual Mage removal and a very interesting alternate kill in rza's Rage (Take that, Gaea's Blessing.:P) White offers Chant and STP, both powerful.

Green's main, but not only, offering, is of course, Determined. Determined is not the goldmine answer to any specific problem, but a solid answer to numerous problems that fits perfectly in the deck's schemes. It is completely maindeckable in certain metagames, and its advantages are numerous:

1. It pitches to Force of Will, where no other splash card does.
2. It cantrips, where no other splash card does. This is incredibly vital. This allows you board in as many as you like freely, as you can use multiple in mid-combo, or to cast it early to dig for cards.
3. It answers Chalice of the Void at 1, which is arguably the second most common hate card for the deck. You can still Cunning Wish out of Chalice-2, and Chalice-3 can be comboed off to in response, or simply ignored. And both can be Remanded or Forced.
4. It allows you to draw out counters against a counter-heavy hand (or ignore them entirely), much like Orim's Chant.

For these many services, its downsides are very few, but sharp:
1. It shuts off Remand.
2. As such, it makes you vulnerable to Stifle.

The Green Build also gives you access to a couple of other cards. The first of these is Krosan Grip, which can be dynamite in any match against a deck packing a hate Artichantment (Chalice, Arcane Laboratory, etc) backed up with countermagic. The others I've had some luck with in testing are Moment's Peace and Sandstorm.

Moment's Peace buys you two turns against fast aggro decks, but only against ones not packing Wasteland, which is problematic as the big one (Goblins) does just that. So it's a bit iffy.

Sandstorm, however, may be worth the slot in some metagames. It rocks a Lackey, picks off the unsuspecting Confidant, and gives you a second out alongside Echoing Truth to the 12-14 Goblin ETW that Epic Storm and company like to fire at you.

Green does not address Meddling Mage, the top hate card for the deck, with a direct solution. The presence of Determined, however, allows you to act much more aggressively in countering the mage without having to worry about whether you'll need to save counters for opponent's counters. If you can keep Mage off the board for just a little while, you can Determined your way into a win.

[GreenOne]

Don't know if that is relevant at all, but right now I'm testing a monoblue version with 3-4 SB Wipe Away (I'm playing just 2x Hydroblasts because goblin is packing less and less pillars and more and more chalices).

I found them pretty good to dodge hate and if you draw multiples you can always use them to gain some time.

[largebrandon]

For these many services, its downsides are very few, but sharp:
1. It shuts off Remand.
2. As such, it makes you vulnerable to Stifle.


I don't see how it makes you more vulnerable than if you hadn't played Determined. Sure, you can't remand your freeze, but you can sure still FoW or remand their stifle. . . or play another freeze.

Plus, if they are playing stifle, they would have stifled your fetchland a long time ago :wink:

[Tacosnape]

I don't see how it makes you more vulnerable than if you hadn't played Determined. Sure, you can't remand your freeze, but you can sure still FoW or remand their stifle. . . or play another freeze.

Plus, if they are playing stifle, they would have stifled your fetchland a long time ago :wink:

This is usually true. I haven't yet gotten in trouble with a Stifle, as it's not hard to just Force the thing, especially since they can't counter your Force back. But it's still something to be aware of.

[awbarry00]

The problem with the green splash is that the red splash offers almost all of the same advantages as the green splash. Looking at each individually:

1)Determined can be pitched to Force of Will. With the red splash, there aren't any cards that go in the maindeck that aren't blue. the starstorm, sudden shock, rack and ruin, and urza's rage are all left in the sideboard for most matches, and occaisionally one is sided in. The red splash is mainly for a wishboard, meaning that none of the cards need to be pitched to force of will. And in monoblue, well, your monoblue.
2)Determined cantrips. In the red splash, the deck runs most of it's cards in the wishboard. If it needs an answer, then no that answer won't cantrip, but when you need an untap effect or draw effect, wish does that. And other than wish, the majority of the deck is cantrips. The monoblue version is the same. Also, a two mana cantrip is really not an optimal use for the card. If necesary, yes it can be used as one, but if that is the only draw in your hand, then you'd much rather just have any other cantrip in the deck, which were probably removed for Determined to go in.
3)Determined answers Chalice of the Void at 1. So does rack and ruin. Or echoing truth. And you can play either of those during your opponents endstep, which leaves you with alot more mana to go off with. In fact, I would argue that determined is no better than any wishable answer to chalice in that determined can be chaliced just as easily as wish.
4)Determined draws out counters against a counter-heavy hand. This seems like the only true upside of Determined vs the red splash or the monoblue version. However, if this is what is being gained, then I'd rather just have Orim's Chant, as it is cheaper, more versatile, and leaves you with the ability to remand your freezes.

Of the negatives, I think Tacosnape significantly understated a very big downside. Determined doesn't answer Meddling Mage. The red splash has sudden shock, the white splash has STP. The most comon reason to splash a card is to answer Meddling Mage more efficiently. Does the green splash still have answers to Mage in the wishboard? Yes it does, but the other versions are either just as good, or better at, answering Meddling Mage.

Finally, the other cards Tacosnape mentioned that were being tested. Krosan Grip is interesting, but seems inferior to Rack and Ruin. The fact that it also hits enchantments is largely irrelevant as the only enchantments which are going to get played against you are Arcane Lab/Rule of Law, or Pyrostatic Pillar, and the pillar gets answered by the hydroblasts/BEB's on board. Both can be bounced. Rack and Ruin hits multiple artifacts, so it is only worse when the opponent has one hate card in play, in which case you can either go off with it in play (most of the time this will mean going off low tide, which is harder but definately doable), or just bounce it. The fact that it is uncounterable only makes it better against thresh, but not by much as if they get a rule of law into play and back it up with counterspells, they are probably not going to let cunning wish resolve. The final problem with Krosan Grip (and Sudden Shock for that matter) is that it is only uncounterable as long as the Cunning Wish resolves. Not to say that these are necesarily bad, but they are not quite as "uncounterable" when they are used on a wish board.

Sandstorm seems interesting and can be a very good option, but suffers from the same weakness that the rest of the color has. It doesn't answer meddling mage. And for many of the same situations the red splash plays Starstorm on the wishboard. The white and blue versions don't have a similar effect, but the white version answers confidant or other creatures without letting the opponent untap with them first with STP, and some blue versions use Pongify for a similar effect. Not letting the opponent untap with a Dark Confidant is always a good thing.

I agree with what Tacosnape said about Moment's Peace being pretty iffy.

[Tacosnape]

(Shortened and Numbered for response readibility)


The problem with the green splash is that the red splash offers almost all of the same advantages as the green splash. Looking at each individually:

1)The starstorm, sudden shock, rack and ruin, and urza's rage are all left in the sideboard for most matches

2)In the red splash, the deck runs most of it's cards in the wishboard.

3)Determined answers Chalice of the Void at 1. So does rack and ruin.

4)Determined draws out counters against a counter-heavy hand. This seems like the only true upside of Determined vs the red splash or the monoblue version. However, if this is what is being gained, then I'd rather just have Orim's Chant, as it is cheaper, more versatile, and leaves you with the ability to remand your freezes.

5)Of the negatives, I think Tacosnape significantly understated a very big downside. Determined doesn't answer Meddling Mage. The red splash has sudden shock, the white splash has STP. The most comon reason to splash a card is to answer Meddling Mage more efficiently. Does the green splash still have answers to Mage in the wishboard? Yes it does, but the other versions are either just as good, or better at, answering Meddling Mage.

6. Sandstorm seems interesting and can be a very good option, but suffers from the same weakness that the rest of the color has. It doesn't answer meddling mage. And for many of the same situations the red splash plays Starstorm on the wishboard. The white and blue versions don't have a similar effect, but the white version answers confidant or other creatures without letting the opponent untap with them first with STP, and some blue versions use Pongify for a similar effect. Not letting the opponent untap with a Dark Confidant is always a good thing.

7. I agree with what Tacosnape said about Moment's Peace being pretty iffy.

You make a lot of good points. Let me make a few counterpoints.

1. Red is frequently boarded in and should be frequently boarded in. If you aren't boarding in one of your Sudden Shock/Urza's Rage (And possibly Starstorm) in a match with Meddling Mage, you aren't really getting any benefit out of them if a Mage is on the board and the player's smart enough to counter Cunning Wish. That said, the pitchability to Force is a bigger difference between Green and White than Green and Red.

2. Again, no it doesn't. You should be boarding in 1-2 cards with your red splash. These cards won't cantrip. The exception here is that Starstorm at least Cycles. Granted, they're far stronger against Meddling Mage than anything Green has to offer.

3. Not unless they play another artifact, it doesn't. And Goblins will frequently drop that Chalice against you with no Vial involved.

4. Determined is a better bluff play than Orim's Chant, because it cantrips. If you fire an Orim's Chant with no intention of going off (IE, You're missing a key element in your hand), and it resolves, this usually tells you your opponent has no counter, but it doesn't draw you a card. Determined draws you that card, and at least three times I've thrown a blind Determined and peeled the High Tide or Reset I needed off of it to win right then, where Orim's Chant would have required me to wait another turn. Chant also doesn't pitch to Force, making multiple useless.

5. Absolutely correct. Green is the weakest color splash against Mage. Interestingly enough this is why I first suggested splashing both Green and Red, 1 Dual each instead of 2, but this proved to be a rather significant headache. Oh well. Try and learn. Read on, however, and let me defend the Green splash versus Meddling Mage in a different manner. This by no means is claiming Green to be the equal of any other color splash versus the Mage. Just showing that in a roundabout way, it does help.

As I said, and this is important, Determined lets you change how you approach Meddling Mage. You can afford to spend every ounce of effort you have to keep it from resolving, as Determined will let you fight through counters. Secondly, resolving a Determined with six lands or so will allow you to combo off without a High Tide without fear of needing the extra mana to Remand, Twincast, and replay your spells.

6. The other problem with Sandstorm is that it doesn't help you against stupid Xantid Swarms. In fact, that's now the card's official name. "Stupid Xantid Swarm." Remember this should you need to name it with Cabal Therapy.

7. Let nobody say I'm afraid to try a card and admit it failed dismally.

[awbarry00]

What you're saying does make sense, but I still have some thoughts on your reasoning.

First, I agree with what you said about sideboarding. I don't think I have been sideboarding correctly, as I just picked up the deck. However, the deck still should not have problems if there are only 2-3 non-blue spells for Force of Will. I think that this problem was one of the reasons that the white splash was dissmissed early on in the thread.

Next, you'll note that when I listed answers to chalice on one, I not only listed rack and ruin, but also echoing truth. In the red splash, these are both meant to be used. If the goblins player has a chalice on one, then wish for echoing truth and play it endstep, then go off. Rack and Ruin is meant to be used when multiple artifacts are causing problems, or when it's simply better to blow up two artifacts than bounce them. These situations have arisen against stax more than anything, but have happened against goblins or any deck playing moxen. Rack and Ruin doesn't require you to go off the next turn, and that fact makes it an excellent answer to different situations, or when you have a bad hand it can buy you multiple turns. In short, it is meant to fill the same role as Rebuild, which was commonly accepted as an optimal sideboard choice, but it plays the role of Rebuild better by adding some flexibility.

Next, my point still stands concerning uncounterable spells (which is why siding in some of the answers to mage in the red splash version is so good), in that they are not "uncounterable" when they are on a wish board. A good player should never let a wish resolve if they have a choice, and if they don't then they probably don't have a counterspell anyway. Krosan Grip is only good because it is uncounterable, as otherwise it is incredibly clunky and expensive.

Finally, your logic concerning fighting mage with determined. This is a reasonable plan for fighting mage, but flawed in that, in the event that the opponent has more counterspells than you do (which is not unlikely, as Solidarity is not a very counter-heavy deck), and they manage to force through a mage, then the outs to the mage are now entirely dependant on resolving a Cunning Wish. If the opponent successfully counters the wish, or plays another mage, then you lose, where the red splash can draw starstorm or uncounterable removal and go off anyway. I believe that the strongest argument against the green splash is one you allude to yourself, that it is the weakest splash against Meddling Mage. While the green splash is more effective against Chalice of the Void backed up by counters, Meddling Mages are a much bigger problem than Chalice. Also, when not backed up by counters, the red version is more effecient at dealing with either problem than the green splash. In addition, the red splash gives an althernate win condition to deal with blessing, when just stroking the opponent out is not an option (and Bound also happens to make going off through blessings harder). Finally, the green splash version loses access to siding in multiple Twincasts, according to your sideboard list given earlier in the thread:
4 Bound//Determined
3 Hydroblast
1 Twincast
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Chain of Vapor/Krosan Grip
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild

Bound/Determined and Twincast are good in similar matchups, but where Twincast is good whether you are trying to go off or protect your combo, Bound is only good when trying to protect the combo, as mid-combo a two mana cantrip is not the card you want to see.

[largebrandon]

I've been playing this deck for a few weeks or so and I've noticed that it isn't THAT hard to surpass hate. I mean, as long as you get a land drop every turn, it isn't bad at all. Challice at one? Its cool, i can wish for an answer or go off without high tide (which can be done with 5 lands). Have a few counterspells? Then i'll use my own, or use an ass load of twincasts as counterspells or go off in response. I think a good player is required to go against hate - not an off color sideboard.

The best thing I've learned about this deck is that EVERY card in the deck should be a threat to the opponent. If this is not so, then it doesn't belong. With that said, Determined isn't a threat - it doesn't really get you anything you need, and it doesn't hurt them in someway or another.

Also, with the splash, there is a chance that it will get wastelanded. This is a mistake because the deck should take complete advantage of the fact that it only has basic lands, and thus are wasteland proof. This leaves your opponent with a card that is useless against you, which is what you want.

One card that I think can merit some exploring is Piracy charm in the Sideboard. It helps slowing goblins and great against Bob. If those decks don't have either of them out, then make them discard a card. It is a very versatile card.

[barron]

This deck has an *amazing* ability fightning though hate, but it is not impervious. A lone chalice at one is never a problem, same with the lone mage. What is a problem is multiple threats/disruption i.e. stacks and trinisphere, and disruption with a fast clock. It takes more than a lone card (even with single countermagic protection) to stop a decent solidarity player, but the refined problem decks, thresh, red death, stacks, and homebrew, can cause the decks some problems, because of the multiple disruptions.

I have tried piracy charm, but I don't like it better than the other cards in the board, maybe it's just the meta. I don't know. Does anyone else think the same? (as with pongify?)

[Tacosnape]

The best thing I've learned about this deck is that EVERY card in the deck should be a threat to the opponent. If this is not so, then it doesn't belong. With that said, Determined isn't a threat - it doesn't really get you anything you need, and it doesn't hurt them in someway or another.

Also, with the splash, there is a chance that it will get wastelanded. This is a mistake because the deck should take complete advantage of the fact that it only has basic lands, and thus are wasteland proof. This leaves your opponent with a card that is useless against you, which is what you want.

One card that I think can merit some exploring is Piracy charm in the Sideboard. It helps slowing goblins and great against Bob. If those decks don't have either of them out, then make them discard a card. It is a very versatile card.

Hydroblast isn't a threat to the opponent. Neither are any of the Bounce spells. Neither, for that matter, is Force of Will. The deck's quite capable of supporting some cards that protect. Determined's ability to draw a card is also underrated. You won't always get what you need off it, but your chances of Determined-ing into a Brainstorm, Impulse, Meditate, Untap spell, or something of similar nature are pretty good.

As for Wasteland, very true. Wasteland's existence is why I'm still leaning towards Mono Blue.

Piracy Charm's interesting, especially if you've got a lot of Goblins and Epic Storm around, as it's equally awesome on Lackey and Xantid. Again, though, it doesn't kill that pesky Mage.

[emidln]

Hydroblast isn't a threat to the opponent. Neither are any of the Bounce spells. Neither, for that matter, is Force of Will. The deck's quite capable of supporting some cards that protect. Determined's ability to draw a card is also underrated. You won't always get what you need off it, but your chances of Determined-ing into a Brainstorm, Impulse, Meditate, Untap spell, or something of similar nature are pretty good.

As for Wasteland, very true. Wasteland's existence is why I'm still leaning towards Mono Blue.

Piracy Charm's interesting, especially if you've got a lot of Goblins and Epic Storm around, as it's equally awesome on Lackey and Xantid. Again, though, it doesn't kill that pesky Mage.

You could play Pongify. I'm sure even Solidarity can win within the next 6 turns.

[largebrandon]

Hydroblast isn't a threat to the opponent. Neither are any of the Bounce spells. Neither, for that matter, is Force of Will. The deck's quite capable of supporting some cards that protect. Determined's ability to draw a card is also underrated. You won't always get what you need off it, but your chances of Determined-ing into a Brainstorm, Impulse, Meditate, Untap spell, or something of similar nature are pretty good.

As for Wasteland, very true. Wasteland's existence is why I'm still leaning towards Mono Blue.

Piracy Charm's interesting, especially if you've got a lot of Goblins and Epic Storm around, as it's equally awesome on Lackey and Xantid. Again, though, it doesn't kill that pesky Mage.

Force of Will is one of the BIGGEST threats in the deck. It can protect your combo, but it can also rip your opponent a new one when he can't get one of his threats in play. The same with hyrdoblast - just not as dramatic.

Pongify is one of my favorite new cards - it is a blue Swords to Plowshare, in a sense. I think some sb slots are in order for testing this one.

[FRM]

As for Wasteland, very true. Wasteland's existence is why I'm still leaning towards Mono Blue.
Maybe i'm going to say an heresy or something, but if 3 twincast between main and board are sufficient, couldn't we at last try 12 island 6 fetch main and -1 twincast +1 volcanic island side? (i'm referring to the side showcased in post 1097 by the master himslf :D)
I mean, if we splash red to improve our chances against mage, then we want to improve matchup against fish and thresh, which are decks in which we would have sideboard in the twincast anyway, and as long as i know are 3 colors and consequently don't play wasteland...
Am i right? if not, why?

[Occisor]

Hmm, is solidarity no longer a deck to beat? Is the deck not putting up the numbers - or has the format just changed so that it doesn't really have any good matchups?

[Eldariel]

The reason it's here is that the deck hasn't put up consistent results lately. Don't dismiss it, I personally think it's still a deck, you want to have a plan for. However, under the new criteria for LMF-forum, it simply isn't qualified as it hasn't Top 8d enough.

[Bahamuth]

Very true. This forum doesn't sort the decks on tier, but on the amount it's seen in T8s. I think Solidarity still is tier 1, and someone (Deep6er) should T8 with it.

[Tacosnape]

Maybe i'm going to say an heresy or something, but if 3 twincast between main and board are sufficient, couldn't we at last try 12 island 6 fetch main and -1 twincast +1 volcanic island side? (i'm referring to the side showcased in post 1097 by the master himslf :D)
I mean, if we splash red to improve our chances against mage, then we want to improve matchup against fish and thresh, which are decks in which we would have sideboard in the twincast anyway, and as long as i know are 3 colors and consequently don't play wasteland...
Am i right? if not, why?

What a bizarre idea. I'm going to try that.

The huge downside is, of course, that you can't do a darn thing with your red spells in board game one. Still, it's a somewhat bizarre idea, and I like the bizarre.

[Elfrago]

Just a little note: someone suggested sandstorm to fight EtW tokens in the green splash. You ca do that with the white splash too, using Rain of Blades.

[Taurelin]

Just a little note: someone suggested sandstorm to fight EtW tokens in the green splash. You ca do that with the white splash too, using Rain of Blades.

It even works with the red version: Scorching Winds does the same job. Yes, it's a sorcery, but can be played in the opponent's turn.

The question is: Why not use Echoing Truth to do the job in mono-U, which is still useful against many other things? If the TES player expects one of those other exotic cards, he can simply choose to attack with only half of his creatures, for example.

[largebrandon]

Just a quick idea for the deck. I see that one of the biggest problem with the deck - save meddling mage - is a bunch of counters. So, against a deck like threshold, why not have a sb-ed Disrupt or three. It gains cards, is easy to cast, and can hurt a tapped out thresh player.

[Silverdragon]

Just a quick idea for the deck. I see that one of the biggest problem with the deck - save meddling mage - is a bunch of counters. So, against a deck like threshold, why not have a sb-ed Disrupt or three. It gains cards, is easy to cast, and can hurt a tapped out thresh player.

Disrupt has been tried and it is just inferior to the other strategies you have to fight counters.
You can use their counterspells to get more storm and finish them with a couple small freezes.
You can use Twincasts to copy your spells (or in rare cases their counter) to still get your spell.
You can use Think Twice and Flash of Insight to simply outdraw them and have more must-counters than they have counterspells.
You can Remand your spells to save them (for example You: Tide, Opp: Counter, You Remand the Tide, try again later) if you don't have Twincast preboard.
You can Turnabout their lands so they only have the free counters.
All these actions need some mana but against decks with counters you can usually wait to go off until turn 8 or later giving you more landdrops so it shouldn't be a big problem.

[Van Phanel]

Sorry if that's a bit out of the context of the discussion right now, but I'd really like to know, how exactly to sideboard with Solidarity or to be more precise what to board out, as what you board in is pretty obvious in most matchups.

So lets assume I run the (more or less) traditional list:

12 Island
6 Fetchlands

4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt / Peek
4 Reset
4 Impulse
4 Remand
1 Twincast
2 Flash of Insight
2 Brain Freeze
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will

SB:
4 Hydroblast
3 Twincast
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
2 Wipe Away


Against Goblins I want to board in the Hydroblasts, but what comes out?

Do I want to board the Hydroblasts against any other Deck running red (Burn, Boros, Zoo)? My guess would be yes, because it trades one card for a card of theirs and more time and also Pillar sees more and more play. The question that remains is what comes out?

Against any Deck running Counters + problematic permanents (Meddling Mage, Arcane Lab, ) I want to board Twincast and Wipe Away, again what comes out? The Remands?

So far I always boarded out random Cards like 1 Peek, 1 Brainstorm and so on, but I'm sure this is not really optimal.


Then I have two more questions on the deck in general:

a) Is it viable to run Mystical Tutor, if I'm sure there will be nobody running Predict? I know about the card-disadvantage, but it does find whatever you want.

b) How about 1 Mystical Tutor side to wish for? I've often been sitting there holding a hand full of action just without High Tide. At those points the card-disadvantage wouldn't matter as you'll know you can go off with the Tide. I guess it has been tried before, but was it really that bad?

c) When would you ever wish for a Brain Freeze? There are only three situations I can imagine:

1) Your two maindeck Freezes are sitting on bottom of the deck or in your graveyard (why would they?) and a wished Freeze can provide a kill right now (maybe they have a draweffect on the stack), but then you could still wish for carddraw and continue in the combo, so the Sb Freeze is not really necessary.

2) You are midcombo already having wished Meditate and not enough mana for Stroke, so you Wish to Freeze yourself and then hope to find something in the Flash of Insight.

3) Multiple Gaea's Blessings where you have to play around them by Freezing in response to the trigger 2 or 3 times only being able to play a small Sroke due to mana requirements.

Do those situations come up that often, so you need a Brain freeze sitting in your SB?

[Silverdragon]

Sideboarding depends mostly on what you have seen game 1, what you expect to see game 2/3 and linked to that what you can read out of your opponent (does he play aggressively/defensively, will he counter your Tides/draw/untap etc.).
Most of the time I board out Peeks as the information gained isn't that relevant anymore and Forces as they are card disadvantage and will be replaced by either Blasts or Twincasts.
Mystical Tutor is bad because most of the time you only have about 3-5 cards (3 Meditate, 2 Flash of Insight) maindeck to regain the lost card and especially if you forced earlier you may need extreme luck to hit enough Cantrips/Carddraw to continue the combo.
A single Brainfreeze in the board is nice because it gives you the added flexibility to actually perform the actions you listed. These situations do come up sometimes and dedicating a single slot in the board for Brainfreeze gives you more possibilities than a random bounce/hoser.

[Bane of the Living]

At 35 pages length its very difficult to find discussion about certain card inclusions. I was wondering if anyone gave thought to Vision Skeins. The automatic downside to the card is letting your opponent draw into FoW, but if your not playing against a blue deck this card seems really friggen hot. The deck is very dependant on resolving a good Meditate. If Meditate is Duressed, countered, or draws you x3 Island it can throw the game. Solidarity would love a draw 2 for 2. It obviously doesnt matter what your opponent draw while your comboing and will help immensely against Gaea's Blessings. The ability to kill your opponent with it is a nice bonus and dare I say could free the wish target of Stroke of Genius.

I expect some skepticism but maybe its worth a small look. Im not exactly blown away by Think Twice in the deck. The mana investments usually arent worth it and I keep wishing it was something else.

[noobslayer]

If we needed that, we'd go right back to words of wisdom. I don't ever really find meditate missing too often, maybe I'm lucky in that respect. But even if it hits one cantrip, you can keep going. I think my worst meditate performance was when I meditated three times, but just couldn't find anything and fizzled out to a burn deck. It happens, you just learn to make the best of your spells in any given situation. I don't think mystical tutor is necessary, as you've probably already got the best card selection in the format. The deck is its own engine.

Also, having a brainfreeze game 1 to wish for is useful, you'll run into situations where you are glad it's there. However, in games 2 and 3, some match-ups you want four in total in the MD because it's just impractical to go for big freezes. I cases with blessing in the second games, I'd rather just wish for stroke draw a ton of cards myself with blessing on the stack, generate a lot of mana, flashback flash taking stroke with it, and stroke them for a lot, twincasting it if need be.

[sammiel]

I playtest with a vision skeins in the SB as a cheap way to draw out my opponent but I cant imagine MDing it.

[herbig]

This thread seems to go around in circles constantly, but Vision Skeins is a new low. Words of Wisdom is strictly better, unless of course you're running the green splash for Stormseeker.

Not to mention, there are always cards that the opponent can draw into that will give them some interaction. Chant, Abeyance, REB, Extirpate and tons of other cards I'm forgetting.

[sammiel]

are you disagreeing with it as a SB slot to draw out your opponent after you have decked him? cause sometimes I don't have the mana for a stroke.

[herbig]

The worth of the extra sideboard slot is greater than the benefit of being able to save yourself two mana. Still, Words of Wisdom is better. Do you often find yourself Freezing them down to 1 card, with Blessing/lethal damage, and only two mana after Wishing?

You really can't have answers to everything, you have to allow for some very uncommon occurrences to lose you the game or you will lose more often to not having cards to side in for the real problems.

[solidarity!]

Hi guys tomorrow i am gonna take solidarity with the red splash(no rack and ruin just rebuild) to the grandprix columbus trial here in the Netherlands.


I am just letting you all know and i'll make a report i think the report will be done at monday/tuesday.

[Bane of the Living]

Hi guys tomorrow i am gonna take solidarity with the red splash(no rack and ruin just rebuild) to the grandprix columbus trial here in the Netherlands.


I am just letting you all know and i'll make a report i think the report will be done at monday/tuesday.

This is interesting to me. Its said that Solidarity isnt played overseas but the more people I talk to overseas the more I hear this isnt true at all. Why isnt it placing? Can Solidarity just not win in that meta?

[solidarity!]

It can win only alot of people make mistakes even mistakes that you are not aware of and this deck will not forgive you even a thought can make you lose and sideboarding must be done carefully without messing with the deck.

I even had a game i lost because i pitched think twice to a force of will or a flash of insight to a force of will.

And here there are not many solidarity players in 9 tournaments(8 at the same place)i only saw 2 solidarity players one at a tournament and the other another so i saw in 7 tournaments no one but myself.

I play it in every tournament i only played 2 time a different deck.

I love solidarity it is my favourite deck ever!

[Bahamuth]

I'm going to this same Trail, and I'm also taking Solidarity :smile: ,without the red splash tough.

[Blaukreuz]

good luck both, bring back solidarity's old glory :D


Its said that Solidarity isnt played overseas but the more people I talk to overseas the more I hear this isnt true at all. Why isnt it placing? Can Solidarity just not win in that meta?

If you look at the latest deck breakdowns of the largest German Legacy event "Iserlohn" (monthly 60+ participants), you'll see that most time there're about 1-3 Solidarity players.

You can see the complete deck breakdowns of Iserlohn here http://web17.accelerated.de/turniere/index.htm (--> Standings - Legacy).

[solidarity!]

I just got home from the grandprix trial and ill make a report later and how i finished youll read it i think tomorrow or tuesday and i am going to bed now i haven't slept for 19 hours now.

[solidarity!]

Hi this is my tournament report on 8 april 2007 granprix Columbus trial.


I woke up at 5:30 packing my stuff and at 7:00 I got to the station and my friend was waiting there and we got on the train,Then it was a pretty hard job finding it.And when we arrived there were some shops and I bought 3 tropical island so one more to go and 4 mishra’s factories.The tournament started at 11:15 And they introduced first the head judge jaap(he is a level 5 judge)and we started with 135 people.


First round
Red threshold

Game 1

Eventually I wish for twincast and I go off on 6 lands I play high tide he counter it I remand high tide drawing high tide play high tide he taps with fire/ice a island ok then he forces my high tide I force back then he forces again I say ok I take my turn drawing impulse having a hand of high tide twincast meditate impulse and I pass the turn then I go off in his turn him without counters.

Then he gives up because he has no sideboard.



Second round
Against Yaran somebody I know with white weenie.

First game
I play island go he plays hound of konda and the judges are coming this way that he forgot a sideboard card and it was a jotun grunt he gets a game loss.

Brain freeze out for echoing truth(just want a freeze in the sideboard and for his equipment like the jitte).

Second game
There is not much happing he plays some creatures and eventually I go off.


Third round
Against goblins

Game 1
He plays lackey I force of will his lackey and well much did not happen further I got my combo and I combo off.

I board in 3 hydroblast and echoing truth and board out one brain freeze turnabout force of will remand

Game 2
Again I force a lackey he plays some weak goblins further eventually chalice of the void on 2 I impulse into remand I counter it next the he plays chalice of the voind on 2 again and I go off.

Fourth round
Against aluren
Game 1
He plays wall of blossoms a caal therapy wall of roots and with the cabal therapy he guesses wrong i like brainstorm and mindtricking.

I board a freeze out for echoing truth.

Game 2
This time he plays 2 cabal therapy and only plays them not flashback them and some walls and raven familiar and I combo off on turn 6.


Fifth round
Against charbelcher

Game 1
He spoils himself to death.

I board a freeze out for echoing truth.

Game 2
he was faster and played xantids and duressess like a madman.

Game 3
I remand a lot of stuff and force some stuff over and over and I combo off while he activated a charbelcher then eventually he activates welder and I respond to it and I win with my lethal freeze.

Sixth round

A draw.

Seventh round

A draw.



And I got 6th at the prizes and I could choose out of 3 cards call of the herd asian darksteel colossus asian or a beta black knight psa 9 graded and I took the knight.


Top 8 elimination.


Round 1
Against hannifish.


Game 1
he plays meddling mage I remand he forces my remand ok then I wish then I keep sudden shock in hand for a while and I combo off I play tide ok then reset making all a ruckus about it I win the counter war and he plays stifle on my brain freeze and I force.

I board in 3 twincast urza’s rage and echoing truth I board out one brain freeze and 4 remand.

Game 2
He has no mage only a army of a lot of guys and I am on 4 something like that when I combo off.


Round 2
Against tes

I board in echoing truth for xantid and oard out a freeze.

Game 1
He plays gemstone mine I play island he plays gemstone mine I play island he plays eot plunge into darkness and he takes his turn and while he is comboing I combo off in response with 3 land he completely did not expect it.

Game 2
Well I am with 3 land he plays a lot of mana and ill gotten gains I am ok and then I take back tide remand brainstorm and he plays burning wish leaving 5 mana I think and the level 5 judge gives me a warning for slow play perhaps he was not seeing something or he wanted to go home fast and I remand the burning wish knowing that he has only 4 mana spells while he has 3 mana and I am like weeee and he scoops.


Finals!!!!

Against goblins

It was there that you could see each others decklist and the judge just layed it somewhere on the table while I was going to the bathroom and I never saw it and he said I laid in on the table and with all the other games he said heres the decklist of the opponent.

Well against a goblins player who was 15th all goblins were hated out but some dropped before the top 8


Game 1
Not knowing he plays goblins I keep a hand with 2 volcanics and I lose.

I board in 3 hydroblast and echoing truth and I board out one brain freeze one turnabout one force of will and one remand.

Game 2
I got a really bad hand.

So goblins only need luck and playskill mostly luck though to win.

He wins the trip to Columbus and I got second.

This was my first really big tournament And I am happy on the results!


Props
For me making soo few mistakes.
For the other guys who wished me good luck.
Slops
The level 5 judge for being a bit irritated and giving me a slow play warning and for not showing me the decklist.
And for goblins having luck again.

Didier

[burkey_boy]

guys... supposedly there is a free counterspell in FS. One you have to pay for next turn or lose. High tide combo doesnt need a ext turn.
Either a 4 of, with 3 force of will... or other way around.

hopefully it is a fake, as that would make this combo nuts.

[Hummingbird TG]

Hopefully it's a fake, as it would make ALL combo nuts..8force, mind, 8force...

[Taurelin]

Disrupting Pact
Instant (R) 0
Disrupting Pact is blue.
Counter target spell.
At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 1UU. If you don't, you lose the game.


http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=825087

Don't know if it's believable, though.

If so, it can just be an addition to FoW, since it doesn't stop a first turn Lackey or a second turn Meddling Mage (on the draw). Nice, anyway.

[Eldariel]

A counter that's only active from third turn forward? I don't see that being anywhere near playable. It only helps you when going off and even then only to fight counters. Misdirection already does that and a dozen other things and we're not advocating it either.

[Poron]

i'm very interested in the U/r Solidarity list may someone post it?

[burkey_boy]

its a couple of pages back... basically some suddenshock and urzas rage in SB for meddlemage.

[largebrandon]

its a couple of pages back... basically some suddenshock and urzas rage in SB for meddlemage.

do you side in both the single sudden shock and single urza's rage against mage, or just cunning wish for them?

[solidarity!]

I board in urza's rage and echoing truth leaving chain of vapor and sudden shock in to wish for if i expect meddling mage and what i board out is wich deck i expect.

[Blaukreuz]

hm, why don't you guys run more than 1 Sudden Shock, wouldn't it be great to side in some more uncounterable removal?

[barron]

I don't know what would be taken out to fit that new counterspell in. Really I just think it is going to make the thresh matchup even harder, because I think that will be the deck that will play/SB it.

[jamest]

It doesn't make sense, to me, why you would run Sudden Shock and not side it in postboard. I mean, if you have to wish for it, then your removal isn't really uncounterable. I think it makes much more sense to side in your split second removal and have Echoing Truth or Chain of Vapor as your wish target.

[solidarity!]

Then drawing one uncounterale removal takes some time and if you can wish for it it is alot faster,and echoing truth for 2 meddling magi.

[barron]

Hey all. I have been fidgeting around with the U/R version of the deck and was looking for some input from others that have tested it. I am going to take this deck into a tournament that, from what i can figure thus far, is going to be *very* unfriendly to combo.

The meta will likely consist of, Thresh, gro, Fish, madness, red death, homebrew, and sui black, some in multiples (almost certain anyway), and will make up most of the meta. Goblins will also be making an appearance as always and right now that is looking like my best matchup.

So, to answer the obvious first. No, I do not expect to win, at least not with any conventional build. The only reason I am not running another deck is because decks like this only get better by getting their ass handed to it on a platter, and from learning from it. I also think this can be an interesting experiment.

The way I see it Solidarity can easily become more of a board control deck with the addition of red, which was why gearheart added it (mage), but I think it will make more of a commitment to a control deck in order to survive this tournament. Adding red definitely slows the deck down and I won't hide the fact that I am going to be sacrificing some of the edge against goblins, but it's still winnable.

What I am thinking/questions I have.

Think Twice: I like the card advantage and I am always a bit more relaxed when i have two in my hand and get Hymned, but has anyone tried Ancestral knowledge? I know it was tried way back when, but the argument was that it slowed the deck down, something that think twice does as well. This card has it's disadvantages over think twice, but is also less cumbersome when comboing. I haven't givin' it any serious thought, but was wondering if it has been tried in think twice's place by anyone.

Flash of insight: I liked this card a lot, and in the mono U build it is a house, but with think twice in the MD the card is a little weaker. Think twice leaves the graveyard, cunning wish leaves the graveyard, and without twincast in the MD Flash is less broken. I have been thinking of cutting it down to one since now it is worse than ever in multiples.

Sudden Shock: I have been testing 2 in the MD since it is a great surprise in the first thresh matchup and can also deal with an early hippie, and to a lesser, but sometimes more important extent can deal with an early piledriver buying you a turn or two. I didn't like the addition of a single mage kill post board because it wasn't always reliable and a smart opponent just focuses his energy on cunning wish keeping the shock in the board.

What I tried was -2 opt -1 flash of insight. +2 sudden schock +1 Think twice. It is slower and not as easy to combo out as the mono blue 4 opt deck that i have been playing as of late, but it is a little more resiliant.

THE SB
This is the area that will create more tension that what was previously stated. Here is what I have so far, but I am almost 100% sure that it will be changed by the end of the week.
3 Teferi's response
3 Twincast
2 Sudden Schock
1 Chain of vapor
1 Echoing truth
1 Urza's rage
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate

Hydroblast: definitely a loss in the goblins matchup, but a calculated one. Sudden shock almost performs the same task, but slightly different, Killing the piledriver always stalls their early kill and always baits them for the Teferi's response (which they have never seen coming as of yet).

Teferi's Response: The weakest part of this deck by far is LD, followed by discard. This card does a fair job at mitigating those. i am *not* saying the card is perfect, but I will say that in matchups against Red Death and Homebrew, Sudden shock (to kill the creature) + Teferi's response has been nicer than force of will. With think twice and flash of insight discard is still a concern, but FOW was never really a great answer for it. The first teferi is always a surprise and can net you a card, or at least make them duress it, and it also makes them reconsider their LD spells. The idea is to just buy time with Teferi and remand and shock until you can combo. From experience the longer this match goes after their explosive start the better my odds of winning.

Urza's rage: I just like it and wish I could replace the sudden shocks with them, but at 3 they just come out too late except in the thresh mathcup.

Sudden Shock: way better on the play than on the draw. Kills mage, piledriver, lackey, early hippie, and nantuko shade (which buys a lot of time against homebrew). It isn't the best answer against goblins, but it answers more than goblins.

Starstorm: I have yet to find a time when I have used this card, but I am not ruling it out yet. XRR is too problematic for a casting cost since the decks that have multiple creatures out are usually either the decks i can just combo through, or decks that run a lot of land disruption.

Force of Will: Without a doubt a great card, but against discard decks i find that i am really only happy to have it to counter a first turn Hippie. I can force Hymn, but it's still card disadvantage, and usually by then i have to pitch a great card anyway since my hand is so small. Really i just use it as duress fodder, but other cards can easily fill that spot. Sudden shock kills the hyppie without the card dis.

BEFORE THE CRITICISM START (as i expect them too, this list isn't optimal) remember that I am using this as a meta-build for solidarity. i am not saying this is the ideal build by any means, but I think this direction needs to be explored. I am *not* saying that this deck will win, as is, but I don't see any current build of solidarity winning in this type of environment. So rather than just say soemthing is wrong or stupid. lets address the best ways/strategies to handle this meta, and work from there.

[Bahamuth]

Woohoo, finally someone trying out something new. :smile: I hope this will fire up the discussion a bit more, since this deck isn't discussed too much anymore since it was moved.

I'd never play Ancestral Knowledge. It's not an instant, it gives carddisadvantage AND it has an upkeep, so comboing becomes a lot harder having this on the table.

Playing Sudden Shock main might just be a very good idea in a meta like that. If there aren't too many decks which put you on a fast clock there, I'd say it's a good idea.

What I don't like is cutting a Flash of Insight for a 4th Think Twice. Since you only play 2 of them anyway, I don't think you should ever get any problems with having too few cards in your grave.

I'm not really sold on the Teferi's Response in the SB. IF you can get one trough, you immediately take a huge advantage. The only deck playing LD tough, is Pikula and any other black decks. I think I'd rather play disrupt.

Are you saying you want to cut the FoWs? I'd also never do that. They're just so important for protecting your combo. Being able to counter is what separates Solidarity from other combo decks, and I think it should stay that way.

[largebrandon]

Woohoo, finally someone trying out something new. :smile: I hope this will fire up the discussion a bit more, since this deck isn't discussed too much anymore since it was moved.

I'd never play Ancestral Knowledge. It's not an instant, it gives carddisadvantage AND it has an upkeep, so comboing becomes a lot harder having this on the table.

Playing Sudden Shock main might just be a very good idea in a meta like that. If there aren't too many decks which put you on a fast clock there, I'd say it's a good idea.

What I don't like is cutting a Flash of Insight for a 4th Think Twice. Since you only play 2 of them anyway, I don't think you should ever get any problems with having too few cards in your grave.

I'm not really sold on the Teferi's Response in the SB. IF you can get one trough, you immediately take a huge advantage. The only deck playing LD tough, is Pikula and any other black decks. I think I'd rather play disrupt.

Are you saying you want to cut the FoWs? I'd also never do that. They're just so important for protecting your combo. Being able to counter is what separates Solidarity from other combo decks, and I think it should stay that way.

Teferi's Response also works wonders against wasteland, Rishadin Ports,

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

THE SB
This is the area that will create more tension that what was previously stated. Here is what I have so far, but I am almost 100% sure that it will be changed by the end of the week.
3 Teferi's response
3 Twincast
2 Sudden Schock
1 Chain of vapor
1 Echoing truth
1 Urza's rage
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate

Hydroblast: definitely a loss in the goblins matchup, but a calculated one. Sudden shock almost performs the same task, but slightly different, Killing the piledriver always stalls their early kill and always baits them for the Teferi's response (which they have never seen coming as of yet).





I'm not sold on your Goblin solution. If you are packing that sideboard, Goblins will most likely step all over your face. The matchup is still tough, even AFTER Echoing Truth and BEB's have been boarded in. With Goblins being the most powerful deck in the format right now, I would not advise replacing the BEBs with Teferi's Response. Response just seems so weak, I would rather run Disrupt over it if you are that concerned about those janky black x decks. Disrupt you can at least fire off on 1 land, so it's not AS bad on the draw. On the draw with Teferi's Response seems absolutely terrible against Red Death and Deadguy. I think you should cut the Teferi's Responses and put back the BEB's, and just try to win your first round or two, and then alot of the Black x decks will be taken out by random burn decks and stuff like that. Overall, preparing for those black x decks seems like a poor choice, especially with Goblins on the rise.


EDIT: Since Sudden Shock costs 2 mana, it is much weaker on the draw than BEB. I suppose if you are set on this sideboard, then Sudden Shock and Teferi's Response are better than nothing....

[Ewokslayer]

Overall, preparing for those black x decks seems like a poor choice, especially with Goblins on the rise.


What makes you think that Goblins is on the rise?



THE SB
This is the area that will create more tension that what was previously stated. Here is what I have so far, but I am almost 100% sure that it will be changed by the end of the week.
3 Teferi's response
3 Twincast
2 Sudden Schock
1 Chain of vapor
1 Echoing truth
1 Urza's rage
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate

Hydroblast: definitely a loss in the goblins matchup, but a calculated one. Sudden shock almost performs the same task, but slightly different, Killing the piledriver always stalls their early kill and always baits them for the Teferi's response (which they have never seen coming as of yet).

Fetching for duals against Goblins seems like a poor plan. BEB costs one, and doesn't open yourself to Wasteland.

[Deep6er]

Well, this shouldn't come as a huge surprise, but I've already tested this. Response was absolutely fucking AWFUL against Red Death. They'd Duress, take a good card and not worry about it. They only run four Land Destruction Spells. Wasteland gets around Response because you have to cast spells. Sooner or later, you tap out. Also, when he said Ancestral Knowledge, he meant Accumulated Knowledge (reading comprehension rocks!). Which, I also tested. Which also turned out to be terrible. I just want to clear up one thing really quick here. I DO board in uncounterable removal. I usually board in the Rage and either Chain or Truth, but I DO board it in. The reason is because going after Wish is hard on their counterbase and you have time to find cards that you boarded in. Anyway, as to the U/R build with maindeck Sudden Shock, I'm not impressed. Sudden Shock doesn't buy you a turn or two against Goblins. It COSTS you a turn. Besides the card lost (which is worse for you than it is for them) you will also likely lose the Volcanic. Thus losing you a land drop. If you're REALLY worried about losing to bad black decks (and I've threatened Anwar with this many a time) go look up a card called Psychic Purge and Guerilla Tactics. Done? LOLZ. Board in those cards (8 is funnier) and watch as they kill themselves. I don't recommend Dodecapod though. Creatures are for losers. Psychic Purge is a sorcery though, so don't wish for it. Anyway, my ideas for that metagame would be the monoblue 4 Opt version. Instead of the Twincast, I would run a 19th land. I would also run Disrupt in the board.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

What makes you think that Goblins is on the rise?



Fetching for duals against Goblins seems like a poor plan. BEB costs one, and doesn't open yourself to Wasteland.



Correction, it is more heavily played in most metas than Deadguy and Red Death.

[AnwarA101]

Correction, it is more heavily played in most metas than Deadguy and Red Death.

Sad but true. As a Solidarity player you might want to accept that your chance of winning against a black-based disruption deck is pretty poor. I think you can board Disrupt if you really feel like it will represent enough of the field to warrant playing it in your sideboard over other cards that might be more relevant. I've found Disrupt to be a non-dead card that can stall the important early game for black decks. But as a proponent of Red Death, I can't recommend someone boarding specifically for the deck as it represents almost 0% of the field at any given tournament.

[barron]

My mistake. I meand "accumulated knowledge" not ancestral knowledge.

I don't plan on taking out the force of wills at all from the MD, but I do think it can be worth siding out against some decks where it is less than optimal, like the discard decks. That is really the reason for the teferi response. Besides the hippie, which shocks can kill. the only card you ever really want to force is a sinkhole, but then you need to play catch up with cards. Teferi's response does that fairly well.

I can't say that I am happy taking out the BEB, but the only games I have lost to goblins where games where they lackeyed into a pildriver or managed to get ont out in other ways. Has that been everyone else's experience? The strategy with shock is mostly to kill the piledriver so it can't swing for 238743847 for the kill.

I don't think teferi's response against goblins is amazing, but land disrutptiion should be expected from them and even if a volcanic island isn't fetched you still have the chance of drawing it or having it in your oppening hand.

It has been a long time since I have tested disrupt and when I did it wasn't really in a discard heavy meta. How does it perform against those decks? I have absolutely no time to playtest this week because of work and classes so any input would be great.

I have been trying to think of a SB with disrupt, but I can't run that *and* 3 hydroblast *and* three twincast (which is the nuts against threshold when there is no mage).

Maybe you all are right and I have been focusing too much on the discard. I enjoy the challenge but I am getting a little irritated beating goblins and threshold, but losing to discard and i know the players that play those decks are very competent and tend to beat goblins with them.

I tried gearhearts R/U build for the first time, but found the deck to be a little slower and with so little red a bit inconsistent in getthing the threats (with wish being counterable).

Another consideration I have has is dropping the 4 Think twice for 4 opt and adding in the 2nd flash of insight, while leaving the twincast spot for Urza's rage, but then I really don't know what exactly to do with the SB. But It would speed up the deck a lot which is really the issue against goblins.

What got me started on this whole track was considering what all three decks (goblins, thresh, and discard) have in common and working that into the SB. Mage is definitely annoying, as is hippie, and piledriver had pro blue and was always the reason for 0 life. So increasing sudden shock seemed a little obvious, but then the even more obvious issue of LD when adding duals to the deck. I figured Teferi's response can turn that negative into a positive since I never liked forcing against discard, and besides the creatures, which shock takes care of, the only think I would ever force was LD. [this may just be fresh on my mind because my last matchup agaisnt red death involved him holding/drawing all 4 sinkholes]. They can duress the response, but then they would always just duress away the force, anyway. Teferi is there to act like another timewalk (remand).

On a more broad note. Do you all think there is a strategy that can cover those three decks? Obviously the strategy won't be optimal against each deck, but advantageous is the issue.

I will mull over everything that has been said so far and see if i can think of some other angles. If it weren't for that mage I would just stay mono U.

Anyway, everyone throw in their two cents.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Sad but true. As a Solidarity player you might want to accept that your chance of winning against a black-based disruption deck is pretty poor. I think you can board Disrupt if you really feel like it will represent enough of the field to warrant playing it in your sideboard over other cards that might be more relevant. I've found Disrupt to be a non-dead card that can stall the important early game for black decks. But as a proponent of Red Death, I can't recommend someone boarding specifically for the deck as it represents almost 0% of the field at any given tournament.

Oh by all means, I would never want to sit across from a Red Death player, or a Dead Guy player. I am well aware that my chances of pulling the match away are rather slim. I am just glad they represent a very small percentage of each field. If they somehow make a huge upbringing, then it's time to dust off the Disrupts....

[Bahamuth]

My european meta is very different from the american one, and I'm considering taking out the hydroblasts and replacing them with disrupts, since there are much less goblin decks and much more discard decks here.

Of course isn't goblins the only deck hydroblast is good against.

[barron]

What i meant earlier was that I knew you SBed in uncouterable hate, but only putting one in post sb is what made it a tad inconsistent since they would just make sure to counter the cunning wish when you try to get the other.

So if i understand correctly it is, from the mono blue build, -1 twincast, +1 island
and the SB would be +4 disrupt, - ?, the auto-includes would be 3 hydroblast, 1 chain of vapor, 1 echoing truth, 1 rebuild, 1 meditate, 1 turnabout, 1 stroke of genius, and with the 4 disrupts that would leave only two spots open, which I would inceptively use for twincast.

From experience, twincast is the nuts against thresh and makes a non-mage game almost a cakewalk, and -2 twincast (one from MD) and no extra mage removal I think the thresh match would be a real pain. I think maybe there should also be something to be said about disrupt against the faster storm decks, igg and epic. It may not always be a wrench, but it gives a little more defense.

Anyway, does anyone think that would be the optimal SB strategy? I am a little uncertain myself at this point.

[lavafrogg]

For the record my sideboard is:
3 Hydroblast
3 Twincast
1 Urzas Rage
1 Sudden Shock
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Meditate
1 Stroke
1 Turnabout
1 BrainFreeze
1 Reiterate

My main is -1 Cunning Wish +1 Think Twice
the think twice helps during the red death and other black matchups
It allows faster recovery from the hand destruction. Land destruction sucks balls but I feel it is the lesser of two evils.

For Goblins I bring in the three Hydroblasts and the two bounce spells. I try to keep lackey and warcheif off the table.
They are the casalysts that allow the deck to stomp our face. Without the added speed they are just an aggro deck about to lose to a combo deck.
In my experience Vial go is a great opening turn and we dont care about ringleaders unless they are lackeyed out.

The reiterate is what I want to discuss...it seems like a win more card but I am not too sure. I have gone infinite many times with high tide and reset and also it stomps in the mirror or the psuedo mirror.
Problems are that it doesnt help against goblins(or at least I havent seen it) It is another twincast effect which is amazing and helps against thresh if you can get it online. I beleive that it provides inevitability to the deck so it can play a more control role and then just win. With four lands you can produce infinite storm and with more lands you cannot lose.

What do you guys think?

[barron]

I would be very hesitate to make cunning with a 2 of in the MD, and I think you may be right about reiterate. Going infinite is pretty cool, but very over the top, though congrats. I must have seen that card a few times now and that never occured to me.

[lavafrogg]

I beleive I already am a fool. Making the change and running 2 cunning wish does seem like pointless schenanigans for how good the card is but what could I cut...do you think reiterate is the tool to push Tide over the top?

[barron]

I meant over the top as in "jumping the shark" (something to definitely wiki). I just don't think it is necessary and when it would come in handy it would be in situations you would have already won. So yeah, I think it may be just a win more card.

As for cunning wish and think twice, cunning wish is definitely the one to pick.

[Van Phanel]

The reiterate is what I want to discuss...it seems like a win more card but I am not too sure. I have gone infinite many times with high tide and reset and also it stomps in the mirror or the psuedo mirror.
Problems are that it doesnt help against goblins(or at least I havent seen it) It is another twincast effect which is amazing and helps against thresh if you can get it online. I beleive that it provides inevitability to the deck so it can play a more control role and then just win. With four lands you can produce infinite storm and with more lands you cannot lose.

What do you guys think?

You honestly want to rely on getting both Volcanic Islands into play, to be able to play a fifth Twincast? I don't think so.

At the time you would be able to go infinite, you have already played around all their counters and still have the Reiterate in hand, so you should win anyway. So yes, its just a win more.

And to make matters even worse: Even if you get the Reiterate + Reset / Turnabout online it still doesn't do anything else than produce infinite blue (!) mana and Stormcount. As you have to tap both Volcanics for Reiterate each time you copy your untap, you can't net any red mana, so you would still have to find a Wish, Flash or Brain Freeze.

[Bahamuth]

I don't think Reiteraite adds something to this deck. For doing weird things with it, you appear to need a hand with a high tide, a reset/turnabout and some (maybe more) draw spells. I'd say you could go off with that hand anyway, so it seems sort of useless.

What do you guys think about Three Wishes? I'm not sure if it is good enough to fit in this deck, since it's only really good while comboing. It might get you some flash cards in your graveyard earlier tough.

You could also play it in your own turn, and use any counters you removed with it in your opponents turn.

[solidarity!]

Three wishes reminds me somewhat of prosbloom.

And three wishes is what i think not really good in this deck since you can only use it while you combo off.

Conclusion for me:i will not use it.

[largebrandon]

With the average opponent, they will remove as much of their creature removal as possible and replace with hate against combo. As such, why not SB in something like 2-3x Teferi? That way it will probably be untouched.

[lavafrogg]

Not to beat a dead horse but I upped the volcanic count to 3 and used the reiterate with a low hand late in the gate. Late game reiterate + reset =inf mana and storm and then with either a flash or think twice in the graveyard is inf draw spells.
I have used this as a late game yawgs will or time spiralish card. I havent tested it much (only the last two days) but it has been benificial. Of course it doesnt help against goblins but anything where you can force and remand your way through the early game it gives you a bomb to resolve mid to late game...and while you are going off going infinite is not a bad thing to play around blessings or any other reactive hate cards(stifle, exterpate, trickbind, angels grace)

[lavafrogg]

Teferi is a bad idea because he doesnt do anything for the combo. Unless you were going to add morphling and go for an aggro blue sideboard approach but that just feels bad. They both cost five and dont end the game fast enough. I fyou need an alternate win condition use urzas rage. I have had people drop under ten against me and died to a single rage. Or worse than that add green and go for a hunting pack.

[largebrandon]

Teferi is a bad idea because he doesnt do anything for the combo. Unless you were going to add morphling and go for an aggro blue sideboard approach but that just feels bad. They both cost five and dont end the game fast enough. I fyou need an alternate win condition use urzas rage. I have had people drop under ten against me and died to a single rage. Or worse than that add green and go for a hunting pack.

I was more or less thinking of a transformative sideboard against decks that will hate the shit out of you, leaving all of their creature kill sided out.

[noobslayer]

A transformational board would likely be a horrible idea, because the only thing this deck is built to do is draw cards, make mana, and cast brainfreeze. Even if you board in fifteen cards, the basic shell of this deck will be four forces, and a ton of drawing and searching.

EDIT: Reiterate=double of a splash color=gg you. You'll find in a real tournament setting (meaning actual decks not on MWS piloted by good people. So you can most likely dismiss 70% of your local meta, and pretty much only count the last few rounds if you've done well up to that point.)

[RoddyVR]

i'm sorry if this isnt the right place to ask...
but as the first sentence of this thread sais, solidarity is a complicated combo...

i'm having trouble figuring out a way to BEAT solidarity, in my games against it, even when i have the tools that i think should beat it at hand, i still have problems using the right ones at the right time. if you guys could tell me when each of the following should be used to screw your deck over the most, i would much appreciate it.

1. tapping you lands. i used to think that if i tap all your lands during your upkeep, then you wont be able to do much, cause reset only works on my turn. but then someone i played against went off during his own upkeep in response to me tapping his lands, without using reset. how many untapped lands do you guys generaly need to go off without reset?

2. making you discard cards. if i've got Mindlash sliver and a few slivers in play, i can make you discard cards (by sacing a sliver for each card), but you all just respond to this stuff, and leave it on the stack... so i figure i should do it in respnose to one of your more important spells so that in order for your spell to resolve you have to let the card discard resolve. is there a specific point in your combo that this approach would work best at? does it make a difference if i'm making you discard your whole hand or would making you discard all but X (how many?)cards be enough if done at right time?

3. when is it too late? i've seen solidarity go of with 4 lands no problem, with 3 lands the guy that did it was surprised he pulled it off, but i also saw it go off with 2 lands once (though i think he just emptied my deck, didnt make me draw a card, so i lost on my own next turn)... at what point should i be realy concerned?

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

i'm sorry if this isnt the right place to ask...
but as the first sentence of this thread sais, solidarity is a complicated combo...

i'm having trouble figuring out a way to BEAT solidarity, in my games against it, even when i have the tools that i think should beat it at hand, i still have problems using the right ones at the right time. if you guys could tell me when each of the following should be used to screw your deck over the most, i would much appreciate it.

1. tapping you lands. i used to think that if i tap all your lands during your upkeep, then you wont be able to do much, cause reset only works on my turn. but then someone i played against went off during his own upkeep in response to me tapping his lands, without using reset. how many untapped lands do you guys generaly need to go off without reset?

2. making you discard cards. if i've got Mindlash sliver and a few slivers in play, i can make you discard cards (by sacing a sliver for each card), but you all just respond to this stuff, and leave it on the stack... so i figure i should do it in respnose to one of your more important spells so that in order for your spell to resolve you have to let the card discard resolve. is there a specific point in your combo that this approach would work best at? does it make a difference if i'm making you discard your whole hand or would making you discard all but X (how many?)cards be enough if done at right time?

3. when is it too late? i've seen solidarity go of with 4 lands no problem, with 3 lands the guy that did it was surprised he pulled it off, but i also saw it go off with 2 lands once (though i think he just emptied my deck, didnt make me draw a card, so i lost on my own next turn)... at what point should i be realy concerned?



1. Depends hugely on the gamestate and what kind of gas we are holding in our hands at the time. I had some scrub name Reset with Meddling Mage and I was able to go off no problem with Turnabout and Twincast since he didn't have much of a clock. It all really depends...

2. Generally, the best time to make us discard is before we have the oppurtunity to combo off. Early spells like Duress, Hymn to Tourach etc. get rather annoying rather quickly. If we are mid-combo and you have that janky sliver out, then it will be less powerful than if you rape our hand enough so that we can't even attempt to go off. If we are holding cards like Flash of Insight or Think Twice, then we just laugh in your face when you activate Mindlash Sliver.


3. If you are playing Slivers, then you should be concerned at all times. Anyways, on a serious note, turn 4 is "generally" the turn at which comboing out is an ok plan. I've done it several times on turn 3, with multiple High Tides and untap effects, and Gearhart went off on two lands against Spring Tide I believe. It all depends, but if you haven't done anything to disrupt us before turn 4, then you are most likely in trouble. I'm not sure if this helped answer your question...

[Ewokslayer]

The answer to 1 and 3 is 4 lands. When Solidarity has 4 lands in play it is time to really worry because they can probably go off to anything you do that they don't like.

The answer to 2 is difficult because Mindlash Sliver is an on the board trick which means they should be able to play around it. Making them discard in response to either high Tide or an untap effect would be best but still not terribly effective.

[RoddyVR]

thanks guys. that helps... i was afraid that 3 was the "time to go" # of lands that you needed and even if i'm playing first, turn 3 is too early for me to do any serious disruption.

edit:

The answer to 2 is difficult because Mindlash Sliver is an on the board trick which means they should be able to play around it. Making them discard in response to either high Tide or an untap effect would be best but still not terribly effective.
so making you discard say all but 2 of your cards in response to your first untap spell wouldnt help? that's just scary if its true.

[Ewokslayer]

so making you discard say all but 2 of your cards in response to your first untap spell wouldnt help? that's just scary if its true.

Well they get to choose the cards discarded and after the first untap they have about 4 mana floating and probably Meditate and something else good in hand so their hand size will soon be 5 cards. It does put alot of pressure on that Meditate to draw 4 decent cards but that isn't too hard to accomplish.

[kobefan]

This card seems some good as a wish target to deal with those annoying Meddling Mages without splashing Red.

-----------------------------
Slaughter Pact 0
Instant R

Slaughter Pact is black.
Destroy target nonblack creature.
At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 2{B}. If you don't, you lose the game.

Death is only the beginning of the end.
Illus. Kev Walker
------------------------------

[largebrandon]

This card seems some good as a wish target to deal with those annoying Meddling Mages without splashing Red.

-----------------------------
Slaughter Pact 0
Instant R

Slaughter Pact is black.
Destroy target nonblack creature.
At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 2{B}. If you don't, you lose the game.

Death is only the beginning of the end.
Illus. Kev Walker
------------------------------

I like the idea, a way to deal with mage for only 2U mana (cunning wish).

[lavafrogg]

1. What would happen if we switched the urzas rage plan/ghitu fire to the main deck and the freezes in the side. It could help to win faster and require less kill. The brain freeze plan is still in the sideboard to be wished for if needed. This could allow you to focus more on mana instead of storm and would give you an additional plan of attack(wishing for rage plus twincast is alot).
2.Also I have upped my think twice count to four(for the time being). With the think twices is it possible to add mystical tutors. The TT reduce the CA lost in the tutor. It would give you many more chances to go off earlier and more consistantly.

[barron]

A few reasons, for me anyway

1. The urza's kill can be countered (the twincast part), while countering a brainfreeze means nothing.

2. I find the urza kill requires either a lot of islands, or more than one hightide, the brainfreeze kill requires neither, though both are beneficial. It's easier to space a lot of mana into draw spells, then just plan on having at least 14+ mana available.

3. It requires double red mana, which can, and often is, problematic against decks, at least in my meta.

I don't want to blow off the idea, though. I think a humerous (and maybe effective) burn deck could be made with a rough solidarity shell, or at least the theory, but the deck would be very different from solidarity itself and would most likely require it's own, very seperate, discussion.

[lavafrogg]

Well what else can we try to make the deck new and exciting. The deck hasne changed much since the creation. No splash has been proven better or worse than the original mono-blue build. It seems Gearhardt is the only person that can make positive additions to the deck. There has to be someting we have missed, I have only looked through the gatherer lists at instants 50 times someone can top that.

We could add Korasan reclaimation to reshuffle cards after we have milled ourselves.

We could add black for lim dums vault which would be the same as mystical tutor. Tainted pact or plunge would also help to chain spells(that might not be a bad idea. Stagger all of the 4 of except reset/tide and be able to pact through the deck and wish for anything that you missed...could work)

White gives us nothing in any matchup we need help...swords for mage abeyance/chant for combo wing shards for goblins?

We have to do something were not ever considered teir one anymore(in my mind we are). Everyone says gobs one thres two everything else...who cares.

Are their any innovations that you guys have tried in order to push the deck. I mean we are just brainstorming...throw something out. I dont play online and can only playtest one night a week so I cant try all of these out and goldfishing results dont help much.

Has anyone tried a serious quicken splash...add pyroclasm, warrens, merchant scroll, as one ofs or in the side. I do not want tto lose the instant speed at any cost but I am trying to innovate.

[barron]

The only issue with solidarity is that now a lot more thought has to go into what type of build you are going to use for a tournament. Whether it be mono blue, U/R, one volcanic island or two, 19 lands or 18, think twice or twincast, I am sure you get the idea by now. You really can't just net deck solidarity and go to a competitive tournament and expect to win, even if you are a competent player, though overall you may perform well.

Just don't try sorcery shennanigans and don't add a color unless you absolutely have to.

If you can't play online (I can't at the moment) just set up obstacles for yourself. It's not perfect, but it leads to new innovations. Just be sure to make it hard on yourself

Example, against thresh. Mage on board and they have two counterspells in hand, and you have to combo out by turn 5.

If you want to test something and are heavy in a thresh meta, and want to stay mono blue, try two snaps in the SB. I have mentioned it before an people disagree, but it's because i don't think they have tested it all that much.

The advantage of snap is that you can add both to the MD post SB, which the other bounce still in the board, you can take out a turnabout, with no tempo lost since that is enough. The thresh player never sees it coming, and it lets you fully commit to bouncing that mage and still haveing two lands left over for the hightide and reset.

The reason I think people underate it is because post SB I have won the majority of my thresh games (with a decent margin) with that build. Sculp a hand like 1 twincast, 1 snap, 1 force, 1 reset, 1 hightide, 1 meditate (which isn't that hard when given about 6 turns) and by turn 5 you can combo through a mage, 2 counterspells, and a daze

[matelml]

I like the idea of three wishes because 3 mana for three cards seems ok to me. I believe before cunning wish the deck ran 4 meditate so I would think if possible the deck would run the fourth meditate. Three wishes I believe is a good subtitute, because like meditate it gives you card advantage wich I think is good. I would suggest running 1 instead of 1 think twice to try the card, or has it already been tested?

[GreenOne]

Sculp a hand like 1 twincast, 1 snap, 1 force, 1 reset, 1 hightide, 1 meditate (which isn't that hard when given about 6 turns) and by turn 5 you can combo through a mage, 2 counterspells, and a daze

I can't see how you can win with this hand unless you draw a reset out of meditate.
If you go with Snap (they counter), Twincast it (they counter), force removing high tide (they daze, you pay 1), you untap 2 lands, reset, meditate with 2 untapped lands (hoping to draw reset. high tide is still not active)
If you go with reset first (they counter), twincast it (they counter), force removing high tide (they daze, you pay), you untap, cast meditate with 2 untapped lands (hoping to draw reset as stated above).

Maybe it's something I can't see? Or the "can" in the last of your sentence meaned "you can if you draw a reset out of meditate"?

[barron]

Well it always comes down to what you draw, but you do not need to immediately draw the reset since when all is said and done you will have meditated and still (assuming you paid the one for their daze as well) have 7 mana available to you. There were only 6 cards listed in what would otherwise be a 7 card hand, the 7th is the pitch card. Going on the 5th turn is more pressure than you will ever be under in that matchup, but that's why you test it. Almost always you will have a seven card hand and if you don't then you will mostly likely be able to make it that way by the next turn and even if you don't you just delay by a turn or two and drop the lands then combo off without the hightide.

But I don't think you should look over the broader advantages of the 2 snaps
1. you can board in two bounces rather then one without it affecting your combo.

2. it potentially allows to let you combo out easier after a counter war. it allows you to fully commit.

3. You still have the bounce available in the SB for wish targets (though that is rarely a necessity).

What i used to do was -4 remand, -1 turnabout +3 twincast +2 snap

I personally like having 3 meditates in the deck against thresh post board. With the counterwars you really need to refill your hand.

[largebrandon]

A card that I think that does not belong in the deck is think twice.

This card costs way to much for an ability that isn't good compared to your other cards. Brainstorm, Opt/peek, Flash of Insight and Impulse are plenty of draw to keep you busy at the first few EOT phases. I just think paying 5 mana for two blind cards is silly.

[GreenOne]

Well it always comes down to what you draw, but you do not need to immediately draw the reset since when all is said and done you will have meditated and still (assuming you paid the one for their daze as well) have 7 mana available to you. There were only 6 cards listed in what would otherwise be a 7 card hand, the 7th is the pitch card. Going on the 5th turn is more pressure than you will ever be under in that matchup, but that's why you test it. Almost always you will have a seven card hand and if you don't then you will mostly likely be able to make it that way by the next turn and even if you don't you just delay by a turn or two and drop the lands then combo off without the hightide.

Oh right, if there's a 7th card involved it's ok.



But I don't think you should look over the broader advantages of the 2 snaps
1. you can board in two bounces rather then one without it affecting your combo.

2. it potentially allows to let you combo out easier after a counter war. it allows you to fully commit.

3. You still have the bounce available in the SB for wish targets (though that is rarely a necessity).

What i used to do was -4 remand, -1 turnabout +3 twincast +2 snap

I personally like having 3 meditates in the deck against thresh post board. With the counterwars you really need to refill your hand.

I feel the need of more bounce too, but I'm playing with 2/3 Wipe Away with good results. Unrespondability is good and it bounces other-than-creature permanents (it's great vs rule of law with counter backup). The combo is not that effected by 2-3 cards, knowing that 1 of those cards is usually played before comboing off (leaving 1-2 in the deck).
Snap was discussed long time ago (there was a time when I ran 3, you can look past discussion from page 30 of this thread).
I like too having the meditates in the deck. I currently side -4 remand -1/2 turnabout +3 Twincast +2/3 Wipe away.

[largebrandon]

Oh right, if there's a 7th card involved it's ok.



I feel the need of more bounce too, but I'm playing with 2/3 Wipe Away with good results. Unrespondability is good and it bounces other-than-creature permanents (it's great vs rule of law with counter backup). The combo is not that effected by 2-3 cards, knowing that 1 of those cards is usually played before comboing off (leaving 1-2 in the deck).
Snap was discussed long time ago (there was a time when I ran 3, you can look past discussion from page 30 of this thread).
I like too having the meditates in the deck. I currently side -4 remand -1/2 turnabout +3 Twincast +2/3 Wipe away.

I agree. The deck doesn't have enough answers in which you can just SB in. The mistake that most people make is to rely solely upon Cunning Wish. Even sideboarding in single copies of echoing truth can make a bigger difference than waiting to find a wish then playing it.

I prefer Echoing Truth over Wipe Away. Sure Wipe Away cannot be countered but there are just too many situations in which Truth is better - double mage, double Challice, or even 100 1/1 goblin tokens.

[Taurelin]

think twice... costs way to much for an ability that isn't good compared to your other cards. Brainstorm, Opt/peek, Flash of Insight and Impulse

It's just slower, but it has a different purpose: instead of the other cards you mentioned it doesn't only function as a cantrip (card quality) but nets true card advantage, something that only meditate, a flashbacked FoI and an expensive stroke can do. This can be essential in control or discard matchups. So it's basically a meta-choice if you can afford the time and resources to run it.


situations in which Truth is better - double mage, double Challice, or even 100 1/1 goblin tokens.

Do opponents really set the second Chalice @ 3 instead of 2? A Faerie Stompy player definitely won't. The regular player needs 6 mana for that, enough time to go off.

[largebrandon]

Do opponents really set the second Chalice @ 3 instead of 2? A Faerie Stompy player definitely won't. The regular player needs 6 mana for that, enough time to go off.

The 3 mana answer to challice at 1 and 2 is rebuild

[Silverdragon]

My boarding plan against Threshold is a bit different (most of the time). Instead of boarding out Remands I board out Forces.
The only things you always want to Force are turn 2 Mages when you're on the draw. In most other situations you want your counterspells to force through your combo (you: tide; they: counter; you: counter their counter) or force through your removal. In both cases Remand and Twincast are sufficient imho so the only question is whether you need more mana or cards.
Of course this depends on the board (how many lands do you have, how many turns until you are dead), your opponents hand (how many counterspells) and your opponents playstyle (will he try to counter Tide, drawspells or untap).
Generally if your opponent uses most of his ressources to kill you (playing multiple Bears and Mongeese) you want Forces, if he uses most of his ressources to stop your combo (dig for counters and Magi) you want as much cardadvantage as possible.
My experience is that if your opponent goes the beatdown route you can win without Forces (or any counters at all) but if he goes the control route you hardly win even with Forces because of the carddisadvantage.

[largebrandon]

My boarding plan against Threshold is a bit different (most of the time). Instead of boarding out Remands I board out Forces.
The only things you always want to Force are turn 2 Mages when you're on the draw. In most other situations you want your counterspells to force through your combo (you: tide; they: counter; you: counter their counter) or force through your removal. In both cases Remand and Twincast are sufficient imho so the only question is whether you need more mana or cards.
Of course this depends on the board (how many lands do you have, how many turns until you are dead), your opponents hand (how many counterspells) and your opponents playstyle (will he try to counter Tide, drawspells or untap).
Generally if your opponent uses most of his ressources to kill you (playing multiple Bears and Mongeese) you want Forces, if he uses most of his ressources to stop your combo (dig for counters and Magi) you want as much cardadvantage as possible.
My experience is that if your opponent goes the beatdown route you can win without Forces (or any counters at all) but if he goes the control route you hardly win even with Forces because of the carddisadvantage.
Very interesting sideboarding plan. i think the problem, though, is that FoW counters the important stuff that hurts you. Yes, it is card disadvantage, however in the long run, it will help to resolve a reset or mediate. The advantage of Fow over remand is that it is free, thus not gumming up your mana by tapping two lands to remand a counter to your high tide, thus losing a net of four mana.

[jodawe]

Sculp a hand like 1 twincast, 1 snap, 1 force, 1 reset, 1 hightide, 1 meditate (which isn't that hard when given about 6 turns) and by turn 5 you can combo through a mage, 2 counterspells, and a daze

How often does this actually happen? If you are holding a force without a snap do you counter a turn 2 mage or try to set up this nuts hand?


situations in which Truth is better - double mage, double Challice, or even 100 1/1 goblin tokens.

And split second is highly overrated. It just leaves another counterspell in their hand that you have to work through while going off. The only time I’ve found wipe away to be better than echoing truth is when a mother of ruins is in play with a mage.


My experience is that if your opponent goes the beatdown route you can win without Forces

This is ridiculous. Thresh is an aggro control deck. It can’t choose to go beat down.

[Silverdragon]

This is ridiculous. Thresh is an aggro control deck. It can’t choose to go beat down.

I agree it doesn't go beatdown in a traditional sense. What I wanted to say is that many players (especially weaker ones) overextend when facing combo hoping to kill them before they can go off through their single Mage/Counter. Mage in particular makes this playstyle appealing to inexperienced players who feel safe after they have named your win condition with it.
I know you can't count on your opponent making these stupid plays but my point still stands that if Threshold has very little disruption you will win even without any counters but if it has heavy disruption the card disadvantage of Force can often be backbreaking.
This is because if they have a hand full of counters they don't put that much pressure on you so you can develop your manabase (at 6 or more lands you should have no problem casting Remand and still combo out) but baring Flash or Think Twice you will never have more than 7 cards to work with when you start your combo (8 if you combo during your turn but you might need Reset). So if you Force their counter for your Tide you are down to 4 cards, if you Twincast you have 5 cards remaining and if you Remand you still have 6 cards (of course you can Remand your Tide if they have to much mana open so you have 7 cards again and they have -1 counter).
I already said that Force is good against an early Mage because it is a hard counter and sometimes the early Mages screw me over postboard however I'd rather win the long games (where they have much disruption) because of card advantage than hope to get lucky to have the Force at the right moment early.

[Happy Gilmore]

I agree it doesn't go beatdown in a traditional sense. What I wanted to say is that many players (especially weaker ones) overextend when facing combo hoping to kill them before they can go off through their single Mage/Counter. Mage in particular makes this playstyle appealing to inexperienced players who feel safe after they have named your win condition with it.
I know you can't count on your opponent making these stupid plays but my point still stands that if Threshold has very little disruption you will win even without any counters but if it has heavy disruption the card disadvantage of Force can often be backbreaking.
This is because if they have a hand full of counters they don't put that much pressure on you so you can develop your manabase (at 6 or more lands you should have no problem casting Remand and still combo out) but baring Flash or Think Twice you will never have more than 7 cards to work with when you start your combo (8 if you combo during your turn but you might need Reset). So if you Force their counter for your Tide you are down to 4 cards, if you Twincast you have 5 cards remaining and if you Remand you still have 6 cards (of course you can Remand your Tide if they have to much mana open so you have 7 cards again and they have -1 counter).
I already said that Force is good against an early Mage because it is a hard counter and sometimes the early Mages screw me over postboard however I'd rather win the long games (where they have much disruption) because of card advantage than hope to get lucky to have the Force at the right moment early.

From a Thesh players point of view I attempt to resolve one creature (normally a Nimble Mongoose if possible) then continue to sculpt my hand for the rest of the game till they go off.

Post board I brind in Counterbalance and then things get much more interesting. Once a Counterbalance resolves I fear little except Cunning Wish (which I counter if at all possible).

Multiple Sensei's Diving Tops give me access to multiple Lightning bolts as copies of Brain Freeze resolve. I can choose then wheither to kill them durring my upkeep or that turn depending on the circumstances.

Your best bet is to use the Split Second bounce spell at the end of my turn and go off in response to me replaying it the next turn. Past that I don't have any other advice to give you. Thresh is probably your worst matchup Imo. And Red is just as scary as white because the removal is interactive, forcing you to go off sooner than you would like.

[barron]

It happens more than you would think since you have 4 forces, 4 twincasts, 4 hightides, 4 resets, and essentially 6 meditates, and don't forget you have at least 6 turns to use your 20+ draw/wish spells to find em

[Blaukreuz]

Pact of Negation 0
Instant

Pact of Negation is blue.
Counter target spell.
At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 3UU. If you don't, you lose the game.

What do you think about this card in the wishboard?

[Elfrago]

What do you think about this card in the wishboard?

IMHO sucks, I'd rather put a misdirection in that slot.
Maybe, the black pact could be useful to kill a meddling mage, its worth a test.

[Silverdragon]

I think all the Pacts in FS are not worth it compared to other slots in the MD/SB. They cost 0 but they are too narrow and can only be played the turn you combo out.
Concerning the black pact: Play Pongify if you really want a solution to Meddling Mage in monoblue. It costs only a single mana more but you can eot kill Mage, untap, draw a card, make a landdrop and combo the following turn. Even Chain of Vapor lets you do this sequence. The main reason as I understand it for splashing Red was not to get Mage removal but to get uncounterable Mage removal.
Concerning the blue pact: I already said the pacts can only realistically be played during the turn you combo (even if you had the 5 mana for this one next turn you'd be tapped down and your opponents countered spell has turned into a semi time walk). Asuming the combo piece you want to protect is not the Tide then you could have wished for a Meditate/Turnabout instead of a counter to protect your first draw/untap. Asuming you want to protect your first Tide a counter is only better than Twincast if you have only 4 lands and no Reset.

[FRM]

Since i want to be remember for my bizarre suggestions (see the 1 volcanic island idea a few post ago :), i'd like to point at this: you...yeah you! What do you do all alone in the street at this time of the night?

Street Wraith - 3BB
Creature Wraith
Swampwalk
Cycling - Pay 2 Life.
3/4

So why? because it has cons, but has pro as well:
cons:
- worse than opt (but not that much worse than peek) while used to draw
- life matter, unless we reduce the fundamental turn of the deck
- can't be pitched to force of.. aww nevermind :P oh no! neither to flash of insight! :(
pros:
- 56 card combo deck? gh!
- mystical tutor? dismissed as you don't get the card immediately... Wait a minute.... Hello mr.Wraith, may i help you?
- mystical tutor? dismissed as it's card disadvantage... Hello mr.Think twice, may i help you?

Let's see if we can have a 1 mana 2 life 2 cards instant demonic tutor ;)

P.S. This card is spoilered by mtgsalvation, so though it's highly likely it will see print as is, it's not a given. Just thought we can think something in advance :)

[Silverdragon]

Since i want to be remember for my bizarre suggestions (see the 1 volcanic island idea a few post ago :), i'd like to point at this: you...yeah you! What do you do all alone in the street at this time of the night?

Street Wraith - 3BB
Creature Wraith
Swampwalk
Cycling - Pay 2 Life.
3/4

So why? because it has cons, but has pro as well:
cons:
- worse than opt (but not that much worse than peek) while used to draw
- life matter, unless we reduce the fundamental turn of the deck
- can't be pitched to force of.. aww nevermind :P oh no! neither to flash of insight! :(
pros:
- 56 card combo deck? gh!
- mystical tutor? dismissed as you don't get the card immediately... Wait a minute.... Hello mr.Wraith, may i help you?
- mystical tutor? dismissed as it's card disadvantage... Hello mr.Think twice, may i help you?

Let's see if we can have a 1 mana 2 life 2 cards instant demonic tutor ;)

P.S. This card is spoilered by mtgsalvation, so though it's highly likely it will see print as is, it's not a given. Just thought we can think something in advance :)

I love the concept of virtually reducing your decksize by four with this guy however I think his cons outweight his pros by far.
Mystical Tutor? Remember that every single Cantrip/Drawspell in this deck can replace Wraith to have the same effect for a bit more mana and a bit less lifeloss but we don't play Tutor anyway because it is either slow or requires too much ressources in comparison to other things you could be doing. On top of that it is always carddisadvantage (Think Twice is in the deck to generate cardadvantage not cardparity).

[Happy Gilmore]

Since i want to be remember for my bizarre suggestions (see the 1 volcanic island idea a few post ago :), i'd like to point at this: you...yeah you! What do you do all alone in the street at this time of the night?

Street Wraith - 3BB
Creature Wraith
Swampwalk
Cycling - Pay 2 Life.
3/4

So why? because it has cons, but has pro as well:
cons:
- worse than opt (but not that much worse than peek) while used to draw
- life matter, unless we reduce the fundamental turn of the deck
- can't be pitched to force of.. aww nevermind :P oh no! neither to flash of insight! :(
pros:
- 56 card combo deck? gh!
- mystical tutor? dismissed as you don't get the card immediately... Wait a minute.... Hello mr.Wraith, may i help you?
- mystical tutor? dismissed as it's card disadvantage... Hello mr.Think twice, may i help you?

Let's see if we can have a 1 mana 2 life 2 cards instant demonic tutor ;)

P.S. This card is spoilered by mtgsalvation, so though it's highly likely it will see print as is, it's not a given. Just thought we can think something in advance :)

its not blue for one thing so it can neither be pitched to FoW or removed from the game with Flash. Also the life is a greater issue than you might think.

I would wait to see what the blue one from Future Sight looks like. There is a green one already which suggests that there is going to be a cycle of them. I am betting it says Cycling-Discard a card.

It would also make its way into Madness, being more powerful than aquameaba at times.

I hope I am right :confused:

Edit: damnit, all the blue TS cards have been accounter for already. :,(

[Cavius The Great]

its not blue for one thing so it can neither be pitched to FoW

You don't need to worry about it being blue since you'll be cycling it about 99.9% of the time.

[largebrandon]

You don't need to worry about it being blue since you'll be cycling it about 99.9% of the time.

I think that the point is that you aren't going to cycle it all the time. More times than you think, it will be a dead card. If you are playing goblins, then the critters + your fetch lands aren't going to leave you much room to pay 2 life to cycle. And when you are in that situaiton, you cannot use that card for anything else, thus being a dead card.

[Blaukreuz]

yeah, i also think, that 2 life too hard is for Solidarity. Maybe it could fit in some faster combo-decks, but not in Soli.

[TorpidNinja]

Edit: damnit, all the blue TS cards have been accounter for already. :,(

Since when? It's says 29/31 on the Salvation partial spoiler; I'm still crossing my fingers for exactly what you're talking about.

[Taurelin]

I have two questions, not regarding the actual deck, but rather procedures at tournaments.

a) Is it appropriate to ask an opponent pre- or mid-combo "How many cards are left in your library? Or is it necessary to count the cards myself while shuffling before the match and calculate the number based on hand, graveyard and permanents in play?

b) Flash of Insight offers the chance to stack a large part of my library in any order I want at the bottom. Is it allowed to move the top part of the library half an inch or so forward, so that I have something like a visual border betwen the randomized top and the stacked bottom part? Or is it again necessary to count the cards and keep track of them using notes?

Thx for your help.

[Nihil Credo]

a) Is it appropriate to ask an opponent pre- or mid-combo "How many cards are left in your library? Or is it necessary to count the cards myself while shuffling before the match and calculate the number based on hand, graveyard and permanents in play?
You can take his library and count it yourself, at any time (as long as you have a reason to do so, as opposed to trying to stall). The number of cards in a player's library is public information - in fact, MWS shows it to both players at all times. Be wary not to drop or change the order of any cards in his library, or you'll get punished for it.


b) Flash of Insight offers the chance to stack a large part of my library in any order I want at the bottom. Is it allowed to move the top part of the library half an inch or so forward, so that I have something like a visual border betwen the randomized top and the stacked bottom part? Or is it again necessary to count the cards and keep track of them using notes?

No, you can't visually separate the "random" and "stacked" part of your library.

[noobslayer]

I'm pretty sure you can write the order of your library after flash, impulse, etc. I do it occasionally if it's really critical what my library order is, and I need to pay close attention to it.

[largebrandon]

I'm pretty sure you can write the order of your library after flash, impulse, etc. I do it occasionally if it's really critical what my library order is, and I need to pay close attention to it.

You can write down ANY information that you want. However!!

1) You cannot use outside information in the game (ie - write down what player plays what deck, or info about that player another person told you)

2) You cannot write down stuff slow enough to be considered Stalling (this one is very common among slow playing)

[Nihil Credo]

2) You cannot write down stuff slow enough to be considered Stalling (this one is very common among slow playing)
To expand and clarify this point, if you write down more information than is considered reasonable, or if you do so too slowly, you will get penalties for Slow Play (starting from Warning, usually); however, if the judge believes that you are writing stuff in a deliberate attempt to waste time, that would be considered Stalling, which is a type of Cheating, and will earn you a DQ without prize.

[Poron]

i really can't see the point of running the red splash.

Sudden Shock? Pongify or if you really need the Split Second ability, Wipe Away (and it is much more versatile..)

Rack and Ruin? Rebuild

Reieterate? when are you really going to use it?

Urza's Rage. ok, this is the big one. With a Twincast it ends the match. Is it enough for the splash? I disagree...

[Deep6er]

i really can't see the point of running the red splash.

Sudden Shock? Pongify or if you really need the Split Second ability, Wipe Away (and it is much more versatile..)

Rack and Ruin? Rebuild

Reieterate? when are you really going to use it?

Urza's Rage. ok, this is the big one. With a Twincast it ends the match. Is it enough for the splash? I disagree...

Was it just easier to skip everything I said or did you just do it for fun? I outlined all the reasons why the The Red Tide was worthwhile (except for Reiterate, I never suggested that) a couple of pages back. Is it too much to ask for you to read over what you missed? Incidentally, it's not like I'm asking you to give up an arm or anything, but keeping up with the discussion helps a lot.

[KenZhang]

hi, been playing this deck for some time now, and one of the main issues i have had was not being able to draw a combo piece. this actually happens quite a lot to me during tournaments. like impulsing 3 times and not being able to dig up a tide.

so, (pls do not kill me for this suggestion), i started playing with a single mystical tutor in the sb.

so my current sb looks like

4 x hydroblast
1 x mystical tutor
2 x twincast
2 x wipe away
1 x echoing truth
1 x rebuild
1 x turnabout
1 x stroke
1 x meditate
1 x chain of vapor

its just a suggestion, though it has worked a couple of times for me, when digging up to combo piece becomes more impt that CA.

also, i'm not too sure if this has been discussed before, but is gifts even remotely useful in this deck?

would a gifts pile of tide, meditate, reset, twincast be a useful one?

[barron]

I don't think i quite understand. You have issues drawing a hightide so you put a tutor in the sideboard? Were you planning on wishing for the tutor then tutoring for the tide? Seems like a waste of tempe and resources to me.

[largebrandon]

I don't think i quite understand. You have issues drawing a hightide so you put a tutor in the sideboard? Were you planning on wishing for the tutor then tutoring for the tide? Seems like a waste of tempe and resources to me.

Indeed. Just sounds like a stroke of bad luck - which is a part of the game.

Also, by the time you are able to impulse thrice, you could have gone off withOUT the high tide. The thing I've realized about the deck is that I go off without casting high tide first just as much as I do casting it first. Most of the time I eventually find it goin off, though.

[KenZhang]

oh no. think you misunderstood.
i started impulsed once on turn 3, once on turn 4 after a remand, and once again on turn 5.

its the consistency i have issue with. just out of curiousity, how often did you guys have a cunning wish in hand and hoped that tide, reset was in your sb? for example, its quite often for me to have hands of meditate, meditate, reset, reset, force, cunning wish. or something like that. with only 4 lands in play.

you have the uses of tutor in the board is quite shallow, but it had helped me a couple of times.

just posted this up to share.

[GreenOne]

oh no. think you misunderstood.
i started impulsed once on turn 3, once on turn 4 after a remand, and once again on turn 5.

its the consistency i have issue with. just out of curiousity, how often did you guys have a cunning wish in hand and hoped that tide, reset was in your sb? for example, its quite often for me to have hands of meditate, meditate, reset, reset, force, cunning wish. or something like that. with only 4 lands in play.

you have the uses of tutor in the board is quite shallow, but it had helped me a couple of times.

just posted this up to share.

With this hand you can wish for Twincast and go off on turn 5 or just combo off hoping to draw a high tide in your first 4 cards (quite probable if there's no tide in the bottom 9 cards.. ;) )

[Taurelin]

its quite often for me to have hands of meditate, meditate, reset, reset, force, cunning wish. or something like that. with only 4 lands in play.

I have had similar hands like this example, and with it you can actually go off.

a) Tap 4 Islands, play Reset, 2 mana floating.
b) Tap 1 Island, play Meditate, draw 4.
c) Tap 3 Islands, play Reset, 1 mana floating.
d) Tap 2 Islands, play meditate, draw 4, 2 untapped Islands left, Storm count 4

Somewhen in Step b or d you should find something useful. Of course, crappy draws happen all the time. But it is absolutely not necessary to have Tide in your Hand before going off.

Edit: Damn, too slow.

[Tacosnape]

It's rare that you won't ever see a High Tide at all with all of your digging, and even moreso that your first Meditate won't draw into one if you attempt to go off with Reset/Meditate.

I too did the Mystical Tutor in board for awhile, for the exact same reasons you did. And there were times it was useful. There were times when I wasn't sitting on Reset/Reset/Meditate/Meditate. There were times that EOT turn 4 Cunning Wish/Mystical for tide was just beautiful. But I felt not enough to warrant the slot.

More often when I didn't have a Tide, it was because it got Duressed or Therapied and I couldn't shield it. If this is the case, I learned quickly that not only did I have three other Tides, I had two Flash of Insights which could move that Tide to the sideboard for me if I needed to Cunning Wish for it. This improved my chances of hitting the tide greatly.

But yeah. I recommend goldfishing around and trying to get the hang of comboing out without a High Tide in your hand. It's not as hard as one might think. And if you still think that Mystical's worth the slot? Go for it. It is useful on occasion.

[KenZhang]

thanks for the advice. i got irritated by the fact that the deck sometimes just doesnt draw what it needs. most of the times its beautiful though. i wanted to find ways to make it more consistent which led to the mystical tutor sb.

*i was knocked out of top 4 in my 1st legacy tourney because of the hand i described. and i did go off without tide, mediated twice, got a tide at the second meditate, but had no reset left. so i fizzled..

i do think however, i really have to learn to go off without tide. i've only done that a couple of times, but its usually due to a mage in play.

has anyone tested gifts in solidarity before? any thoughts on it?

[largebrandon]

has anyone tested gifts in solidarity before? any thoughts on it?

Yeah, we have. The thing about Gifts is the exact same as it is about FoF, Deep Anal, or any other 4cc card - it is just too expensive. By the time you get four lands out, you should be going off, not playing a draw card spell which can only get you cards that your opponents choose (gifts).

Also, while going off, you do NOT want it in your hand. 1cc draw spells, or a meditate is so much better while going off.

[Tacosnape]

Not only that, but one of the biggest weaknesses about FoF, Gifts, Peer through Depths, Mystical Tutor, etc, is that your opponent gets to see what cards went into your hand. This is incredibly crucial against decks packing counterspells, where you're going off with a full hand and they have to try and guess what spells to counter. Whereas if you Mystical Tutor'd for Tide, or Fact or Fictioned and took the pile with Reset, they have some idea of what you're short of.

[jamest]

thanks for the advice. i got irritated by the fact that the deck sometimes just doesnt draw what it needs. most of the times its beautiful though. i wanted to find ways to make it more consistent which led to the mystical tutor sb.
I use a 3 Tide 4 Wish configuration to try to get the effect of 7 MD Tides. I'm probably the only one in this thread advocating this. In particular, Gearhart said he tested this already and hates it. You can search this thread for our debate on this subject. Anyways, I'd say test it yourself and come to your own conclusion.

[Nihil Credo]

I disagree with Elfrago and Silverdragon, I think Pact of Negation makes a great Wish target, better than Misdirection. I can think of quite a few games where, mid-combo, having Cunning Wish play as a 3-mana counterspell would have been great.

My current sideboard (MD is the mono-blue build, with 2 Opt and 2 Think Twice):

3 Twincast
3 Hydroblast
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Pongify
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Pact of Negation

[Silverdragon]

I disagree with Elfrago and Silverdragon, I think Pact of Negation makes a great Wish target, better than Misdirection. I can think of quite a few games where, mid-combo, having Cunning Wish play as a 3-mana counterspell would have been great.

My current sideboard (MD is the mono-blue build, with 2 Opt and 2 Think Twice):

3 Twincast
3 Hydroblast
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Pongify
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Pact of Negation

There are definitely situations when Pact of Negation is better than Misdirection, I agree, however a hardcounter in the board was never needed. Especially midcombo you either have a lot of cards in hand, a lot of mana or both. In the first case you need an untap effect more than anything else and chances are that you already have a FoW in hand. In the second case instead of wishing for a counter to protect let's say your last drawspell why don't you just wish for another drawspell? In the third case, ok I don't really have to tell you why you don't need a counter there, do I?
There will also be situations when you have to go off on 4 lands and can't Stroke your opponent. In these situations (that do come up trust me) you better had the Meditate or it will be a quick and painful death on your turn.

Btw as I already said I board out Forces against a lot of decks and as of now I have never needed to wish for one.

[Nihil Credo]

It's the first of the three cases you mentioned. If I'm short on mana, it's not so unlikely that I can afford the three mana to ensure my untap effect resolves but not the five mana to Twincast it.

[Silverdragon]

It's the first of the three cases you mentioned. If I'm short on mana, it's not so unlikely that I can afford the three mana to ensure my untap effect resolves but not the five mana to Twincast it.

Ok I see what you mean but my point still stands that if you've already drawn a lot of cards they either don't have any counterspells left or you have drawn at least one Force or Remand.
Perhaps I/we should be more clear about what the terms "midcombo", "a lot" and "not much" mean.

[Poron]

the Pact of Negation in SB is interesting.. my current SB is:

4 Hydroblast (Pyrostatic Pillars and Goblin. Or anyway free storm counters)
1 Meditate
1 Stroke of Genius
2 Twincast
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Pongify
1 Turnabout
1 Brain Freeze

I will probably cut Echoing Truth for a Pact of Negation...

[Muradin]

I wouldn't cut Echoing Truth while TES is on the rise. It is one of your best options to wish for Echoing Truth if they went for the empty the warrens kill.

[Nihil Credo]

Cut the Wipe Away, it's pretty worthless IMO (I assume the second E. Truth is supposed to be Rebuild?).

@Silverdragon: BTW, it just came to my mind that even if I were forced to use Pact while going off on 4 lands, and if I couldn't Stroke for the kill because I didn't find another Wish, I'd still have an out by saving an extra High Tide and then using it during my next upkeep to double my land production and pay for Pact. Not that this scenario is going to happen in a lifetime, I just thought it was cool.

[solidarity!]

With meditate you skip turns so you don't have to pay the upkeep and the pact is only useful when you want to combo off.

And the pact of negation is useful for a wish target but what to cut?

And going through counters mostly isn't a problem or orim's chant etc.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Well, If you are set on running Pact of Negation, I would suggest either cutting a Hydroblast, or the random Pongify. Taking out Echoing Truth would probably be the worst idea ever, and most of the other sideboard slots seem tight. I absolutely love Wipe Away. I board one myself, and I haven't regretted it yet. It is a non-nerve racking way to bounce Mage, and it forces your opponent into a corner when it comes to allowing a Cunning Wish to resolve. Also, Wipe Away is randomly good in other situations, i.e. bouncing Psychatog after it got Beserked. Wipe Away just gives the Mono U version an "uncounterable" spell to bounce stuff and deal with Meddling Mage, just like the red splash has Sudden Shock. Removing our uncounterable bounce seems like a poor idea.

[Tacosnape]

Taking out Echoing Truth would probably be the worst idea ever.

QFT. Do you people even know what "Empty the Warrens" means?

I run 2 Echoing Truths. It's so incredibly amazing to bring in when people drop double Mage on Freeze/Wish or Tide/Wish. Or when people drop 14 1/1 Goblin Tokens. Or against a single Chalice for 1. Etc.

[Poron]

Can you share your main decklist?

Because I really can't find slots for Think Twice and wanted to test them...

this is mine:

12 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

2 Brain Freeze
1 Twincast
3 Meditate
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 High Tide
2 Flash of Insight
2 Peek
2 Opt
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
4 Reset
4 Force of Will
4 Remand

SB: (just few changes)
4 Hydroblast
2 Brain Freeze
2 Twincast
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Pongify
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor

I was also thinking to cut the 4 Hydroblasts. They are good in the gobbos matchup and for Pyrostatic Pillar. Nothing else i suppose.. SO: aren't 4 Chain of Vapor strictly better? they serve almost the same vs Gobbos and vs Pillar but they are still much more usefull in many other machups... (to bounce chalices different from 1, or sphere of Resistence, Trinisphere, etc. etc.) 4x Maindeck after SB and many problems are resolved. no?

[Nihil Credo]

Peek is what usually gets cut in favour of Think Twice. Roughly speaking, Peek is better against countermagic while Think Twice is better against discard. Choose one depending on what you see more often.

And I like the 4 Chains idea. I think I'm going to try that one out.

[Tacosnape]

Roughly speaking, Peek is better against countermagic while Think Twice is better against discard.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I'm not sure I entirely disagree with it either, but nonetheless. I believe the point was made (By Gearhart, if I'm not mistaken) that Think Twice actually gives you the card advantage to fight through the countermagic, whereas Peek merely allows you to scheme your way through it.

[Poron]

Peek is surely our worst card but sometime it's veeery good... and I love watching opponent's hand.

bad point with that Think Twice, mmm.

[Silverdragon]

Learn to read your opponent. Right now I run 2 Think Twice in my sideboard (for 1 BEB and 1 Chain of Vapor most of the time) and board them in for 2 Peek almost all the time (against Goblins and other fast decks Peek stays because it's cheaper). I don't use Peek to see how many counterspells my opponent has in hand but to see his gameplan in general. Of course it is useful to know what you have to play around but with Think Twice you can simply assume the worst and play around everything a lot easier.
What I mean is that with Peek you might see a hand full of counterspells, Stifles etc. but still only have 7 cards to fight through so even if you play them in the right sequence it may not be enough anyway whereas with Think Twice you just assume a certain number of counterspells from the opposing side but plan with 8 or more cards to get around them.

[Poron]

then you suggest to try Think Twice over Peek. Ok, I'll try.

I tested the [Chain of Vapor > Hydroblast]SB idea, and imho I was right. I have never regret to have 4 Chain of Vapor MD instead then 4 Hydroblast, even vs Goblins.

[barron]

Ok, so as I see it from what I have been seeing and reading there is going to be a lot of threshold, discard (red death, durresses + cabal therapies etc..), and a lot of goblins, and probably stuff like stax.

I am no longer going to be able to make it to columbus because of a wedding so I am wondering how you all plan to handle that type of meta. I have not been able to find a SB build that provides adequate gaming against each of the three decks. It seems that SBing for two leaves the third deck as a very problematic matchup.

What are you SB strategies and decklists going to look like?

As i see it the problem cards are mage, chalice, and just massive discard, goblins runs chalice and has a great clock, which is problematic.

I absolutely recomend dropping the think twices for 4 opts. The card is just too slow against goblins and isn't all that amazing against decks like Red Death.

[Tacosnape]

I agree. I don't like Think Twice either. I actually do pretty well against Red Death style decks anyway, and I don't think Think Twice improves the match, considering mana is a resource they don't give you a lot of. I'd rather have Opt.

There's no question Think Twice is awesome against decks packing Blue, though. But I think I'd rather be a little faster against decks like Goblins.