[Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)

[largebrandon]

The deck has two archtypes that hurt it:
1)discard decks
2)Decks with lots of counters

The second one is actually significantly easier to deal with. The first, though, is quite hard. Especially when T1 duress, T2 Hymn, T3 vindicate go towards you. I've seen a few sollutions to battle this: divert and disrupt. These two cards do what you want to do, but in a different way. Divert doesn't net you a card, but it can hurt your opponent (if it is a vindicat, etc), and has a higher rhystic cost for your opp to pay. Disrupt nets you a card and counters the spell, but your opponent has only one mana to pay and isn't affected by it. Also, there isn't much room in the SB to have either cards in. .

What do you guys think. . .

[barron]

I think disrupt works well in conjunction with other spells.

A lot of counterspells is never a problem for me. It's meddling mage

If I play a deck that plays vindicate I am not too worried because even though the have disruption they have no clock so meditates go a long way. I am not saying I am 100% on the victory, but I am a lot happier to see that than realize I am playing red death with a competent pilot.

[Hummingbird TG]

You're happier to play Deadguy than a competant red Death pilot? This is just ridiculous. The last time I checked, Solidarity cannot cope with having less than 2 lands and having no hand.

[Tacosnape]

The deck has two archtypes that hurt it:
1)discard decks
2)Decks with lots of counters

The second one is actually significantly easier to deal with. The first, though, is quite hard. Especially when T1 duress, T2 Hymn, T3 vindicate go towards you. I've seen a few sollutions to battle this: divert and disrupt.

The problem with your plan is that you don't have an accurate grasp of the archetypes that hurt this deck. Turn one Duress, Turn 2 Hymn, and Turn 3 Vindicate is a game I usually win. Because that's three turns they let me develop without getting a threat on the table. Therefore I've got anywhere from four to six more to sculpt and recover. Sweet by me.

The archetypes that actually hurt this deck are:

1) Decks with a fast clock that play permanents that cause repeated or permanent disruption.
2) Decks with a medium clock and either counterspells or hand/land disruption that play permanents that cause repeated or permanent disruption.
3) Hulk Flash.

3 aside, pure discard is weak against this deck. Meditate refills easily. The only time Discard is enough is if either backed up by a fast clock or if it's in the form of Hypnotic Specter, which is the second most terrifying creature to Solidarity. Similarly, the only time Counterspells are harmful is when backed up by either a solid clock or more likely, permanents that cause repeated or permanent disruption. Examples of these include Meddling Mage and, to a lesser degree, Dark Confidant.

Category 1 can include Goblins and Red Death. But those who play against both regularly with Solidarity know that it's not Duress or Hymn or Port you fear. It's the turn one Lackey or Negator you fail to stop, backed up with Pillar/Chalice or Hymn/Duress/SInkhole, respectively.

Category 2 is defined by but not limited to Threshold and all similar decks. Counterspells alone are easy to deal with. Counterspells when backed up by Meddling Mage can be another matter.

On to Divert and Disrupt, Divert sucks because it doesn't stop Duress and Remand is generally better against Counterspells. Therefore Divert's only good against Hymn and Sinkhole, both of which you can recover from anyway.

Disrupt sucks because having them in your board is playing to lose. If you lost game one against a black-based discard deck, then Disrupt will rock game 2, but it'll suck game three if you win game two. Likewise, if you won the first game, it'll suck game two, but be useful game three if you lose game two. Hence you're spending slots on a card to board in that you can only really get full use of one game per match.

[barron]

Disrupt is far from phenonimal, but it does help the discard matchups more than I think you give it credit for. If you are on the draw then, yeah, it won't help you stop their turn one way. But when you have a hand of disrupt and remand you will almost always delay them for at least one turn, and sometimes two, which is really all you need to do in order to make the matchup swing to your favor.

Tacosnape is right about the descriptions of the decks and why they are threatending. The reason i fear red death over homebrew is because red death has a much - much - faster clock.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Disrupt sucks because having them in your board is playing to lose. If you lost game one against a black-based discard deck, then Disrupt will rock game 2, but it'll suck game three if you win game two. Likewise, if you won the first game, it'll suck game two, but be useful game three if you lose game two. Hence you're spending slots on a card to board in that you can only really get full use of one game per match.

Can you explain your logic on this? What you said doesn't really make alot of sense. Disrupt is nuts against discard in both games 2 and 3, regardless of whether you are on the play or not. Sure it is obv. better to be on the play, but if they turn 1 Duress you and see Disrupt in your hand, let them take it. That's Duress taking Disrupt over something actually useful to you. If they take Disrupt with a discard spell, then Disrupt did it's job minus the cantrip effect. If your opponent chooses to play around disrupt, ie. not casting Hymn to Tourach until turn three, then they are ultimately at the disadvantage.

[Shriekmaw]

T

The archetypes that actually hurt this deck are:

1) Decks with a fast clock that play permanents that cause repeated or permanent disruption.
2) Decks with a medium clock and either counterspells or hand/land disruption that play permanents that cause repeated or permanent disruption.
3) Hulk Flash.




I would have to add another deck in the archetypes that can really hurt Solidarity and that is CRET Belcher (2-land Belcher). This deck is amazingly fast and the only spell you have that they worry about is Force of Will.

The one deck you probably don't want to face at all is Red Death followed by Threshold. Facing black discard isn't bad if they don't have a clock, which gives you forever to set up your combo and win.

It just seems like Solidarity is falling out of favor with a lot of players. I'm not sure if this is because the metagame is changing or the bad matchups that you face with the deck is really hard to win.

[cheddercaveman]

Has there been any word from Gearhart on whether or not we should be picking up Pact of Negations?

[noobslayer]

After talking briefly with him at the DLD, and a little more extensively that evening, I think I can gather that remand is much better. I'd rather time walk or reduce my needed storm by half that counter something and force myself into a do or die situation.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Has there been any word from Gearhart on whether or not we should be picking up Pact of Negations?

I talked to him about it at Kaddy's this past weekend, and it is a definite nono in the maindeck, which should be a pretty obvious point. In regards to the sideboard, Gearhart said Misdirection is much better than Pact of Negation. He wouldn't run either of them, but if you want another "counter", then run the 1x Misdirection in the board over Pact of Negation.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Question worth pondering: If Flash remains legal, we can expect little Goblins at the GP and much Hulk Flash, and Hulk-Flash hate, including but not limited to Meddling Mages, Hymn to Tourach and Counterspell. Is it time to just go ahead and run the Spell Snares in this deck?

[noobslayer]

Herbig seemed to think so this past weekend. I'd personally rather have stifles.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Stifle doesn't counter Meddling Mage.

[Goblin Snowman]

No, but it counters the ability

[noobslayer]

No it doesn't. It counter Hulk trigger and Storm trigger. And fetch land activations for the mirror.

[Tacosnape]

Whereas Spell Snare counters Meddling Mage, Chalice for 1, and Flash. ...Assuming, you know, they don't have Force and Pact of Negation both in hand.

I think it's definitely time to look at sticking 4 Spell Snares in the scheme of this deck somewhere, though. Hulk Flash is a monstrous problem in the hands of a competent player because it can go off in response to an EOT Brainstorm/Impulse/Wish/Whatever.

[GAUDARD]

No, but it counters the ability
It doesn't do anything to Meddling Mage. Nothing.

The Future Sight build won't be legal until the 20th, so it will not have the brokenness of the Pacts.

[Anarky87]

No, but it counters the ability

Stifle doesn't counter "As -this- comes into play..." stuff.

[lavafrogg]

Flash is a blue spell and some of us play red...can't we just blast it? If they want to wait to combo off then we win. Solidarity is the best deck in the format to wait to win the game. The longer it goes the higher our win percentage is.

Flash is just like any other combo deck on turn 1 we have force turn 2 we have remand and after that we are in pretty good shape.

For dedicated hate we could go the route of spell snare or even better shadow of doubt, that would hurt.

We play the best "control" deck in the format we should be agle to beat other combo.

[noobslayer]

Jesse Krieger and I tested vs his sub-par build (one of the earlier iterations), and pre-board it was a little worse than 40-60. It's winnable, but I think if I were to board in stifles the match would end up even.

[lavafrogg]

Is shadow too slow???
Has the red splash become outdated???
Im so confused...between TES, IGGy and Belcher I have had some fun combo matchups lately.

Add on all of the aggro control and goblins that we face and favorable matchups are becoming few and far between...I mean all loam decks and all survival decks AND all control decks AND all midrange decks is one thing but no londer being the best combo deck is uncalled for...just kidding but...

Does Flash trump all others. I just goldfished 20 games of the post FS build and it is pretty good, I will admit. I stand by my "it is alot like Dragon" quote but it might be better.

I wish it would be legal by Columbus so we could see some numbers.

[largebrandon]

I honestly do not think that Hulk flash is THAT big of a deal for us. We do have countermagic against them if they try to go off early, or try to search for pieces. If they try to go off turn 3 or so, in response, we can just make a few spells and brainfreeze them. while it may not completely deck them, it will get rid of a bunch of their key kill cards. However, if you still feel the need to have SPECIAL hate against them, then packing a few spell snares should do the trick.

Also, this is a good news for us, because people who are going to the GP are going to pack some serious Flash Hulk combo hate. This is not conventional combo hate, mind you. orim's chant, rule of Law, etc doesn't really effect them, so there will be less of it out there for us to deal with. However, there will be a bunch of Meddling Mage and Stifle, which I think is quite easily dealt with - as opposed to ALL of the hate cards possible.

[Nihil Credo]

You're correct in that Brain Freezing half their deck or so has a good chance of making them fizzle and lose the game (it's also a nice play after they resolve a Mirage tutor).

You're incorrect in that the current builds of Solidarity aren't able to win a counter war against Hulk Flash on turn 1-2. We have 4 FoW and, less than half the time, 4 Remands. They have at least 4 FoW and 4 Daze maindeck, plus all sorts of nastiness postboard (Swarm, Chant, Misdirection... you name it, they're definitely not going to be unprepared for fighting a stack war).

I believe maindecking 4 Spell Snares is absolutely critical in order to have a decent Hulk Flash matchup (best choice for the MD since they also hit Meddling Mage and Chalice@1). Also, small tip: everytime you play against a deck that runs enough removal, side out the Flashes of Insight: Leyline of the Void will be everywhere, and since Solidarity makes so many maindeck slots dead they may very well be brought in.

[largebrandon]

So then what is your SB?

Also, Maindecking 4x spell snare is really not necessary. The point of the deck is for every card to be lethal and never to have a dead card in hand. . that WILL happen if you have 4x snare in MD. I'd consider SB 4x, but not MDing it

[noobslayer]

The day we need to main deck four spell snare is the day I find another deck to play.

[Nihil Credo]

To be perfectly honest, Solidarity is one of the decks I'm unlikely to touch until Hulk Flash gets its deserved banning ;) I still stand by what I wrote, i.e. that without maindecking 4 Spell Snares, you will lose to Hulk Flash so hard; I deduced that from how decks with a comparable amount of disruption fared against the new kid on the block (i.e. very badly).

What to sacrifice in order to fit the Snares, I wouldn't know, but I'm guessing the maindeck Twincast and Think Twice (or Peek/Opt for those who run them) would be the first to get cut.

As mentioned in the "Solutions to Hulk Flash" thread, better to play Spring Tide, which at least can run 4 Muddle the Mixture with less awkwardness.

[GreenOne]

I tested the HulkFlash (protection: 4FoW 4 Pact) matchup in the last days and I found that preboard it's 50-50. I don't feel like it's the machup we have to fear.
Post board they will have more protection, but we will too in the form of Twincast / more Freezes / Disrupt (if you run it).
The testing partner is quite skilled with combo, maybe we're playing with a sub par version of the deck? What are your results?

[Goblin Snowman]

I tested the HulkFlash (protection: 4FoW 4 Pact) matchup in the last days and I found that preboard it's 50-50. I don't feel like it's the machup we have to fear.
Post board they will have more protection, but we will too in the form of Twincast / more Freezes / Disrupt (if you run it).
The testing partner is quite skilled with combo, maybe we're playing with a sub par version of the deck? What are your results?

In Hulk Flash's favor for me, since I'm running the Kiki-Jiki version, allowing for 4 MD duress and 7 Counters, although the Disciple version is able to go off at the end of their turn, so I could see that having a decent MU also. Just go off when Solidarity has only 1-2 land on the board ideally, or after seeing their hand. Boarding 4x Red Elemental Blast helps for Hulk Flash.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Yeah, I am not happy about Hulk Flash at all. I feel we do have a very poor matchup against it, and after board, things look even more grim. As much as I <3 Solidarity and have played it foooorever. At Colombus, I may have to play Hulk Flash in order to beat Hulk Flash. :rolleyes:

[noobslayer]

If I play this in Columbus my board will be the following:

1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1Turnabout

1 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away

1-2 Brainfreeze
3 Twincast

3-4 Stifle

Stifle for Hulk Flash and other faster combo decks.

[Bahamuth]

Wouldn't playing Disrupt or Spell Snare be a better option then? Those cards can also improve your matchup vs. other decks like TES (Burning Wish/Infernal Tutor) and Deadguy or any other black based decks.

[noobslayer]

I think Stifle on Tendril or Empty the Warrens seems like a rather solid option. I'd also we boarding in one of those Echoing Truth just for obnoxious goblin tokens. I'm just growing tired of people suggesting the same shit over and over. You can play Spell Snare if you want, I'll be playing stifle.

Also, the Disrupts in the board I found vs Deadguy was pretty much futile. If a Confidant resolved it didn't matter. They have more than enough relevant disruption.

Spell Snare hits three things I care about: Pyrostatic Pillar, Chalice of the Void (for one obviously), and Meddling Mage. Bounce and intelligent play should be more than enough, as none of these threats are run along side each other. That is unless there's a build of 5/3 splashing red, in which case I think you're screwed anyways.

[solidarity!]

If flash hulk is a big problem just change your sideboard and maindeck for a few other slots,since everyone expects the big green ugly hulk we should just board with the red version 3 think twices out for 3 stifles or 3 disrupt or not the best although it is very versatile force spike.And i think goblins won't have their big appearance just put the hydroblasts out for one stifle and 2 disrupts or another combination and spell snare is i think the weakest card(since spell snare is not that versatile)stifle hit's fetchlands and alot of other things it even makes the faster combo matchups better!

I playtested hulk flash and it is such a boring deck to play.

I think the hulk needs to be banned because as it seems now it is the legacy pitch long.

The opening hands with hulk are soo nuts so your hate needs to come online really fast!.

The deck fights hate really good and it is fast!

And i think if this stays legal you cannot play aggro decks anymore goblins will just be crushed everyday and gets hated out the same i think will be for other combo decks,hulk can just counter one of their combo pieces and then it will combo off itself,only aggro control/combo control/control would have a decent match if they tuned their list a bit.

I think if this goes on many players will stop legacy since it will become too fast for them.

This is my view now.

Didier

[noobslayer]

We have a far better handle on the stack that Hulk Flash could ever hope for. They mostly abuse state based effects. I don't really see Hulk letting us combo of and then comboing off in response, because usually the solidarity player has a critical mass of counterspells.

[Tacosnape]

I tested the HulkFlash (protection: 4FoW 4 Pact) matchup in the last days and I found that preboard it's 50-50.

Apparently you're testing against Hulk Flash piloted by a chimpanzee. And even then, I question your results. I found it to be about 80-20 for Hulk. The Hulk Player is attempting to go off when Solidarity tries a cantrip, right?


We have a far better handle on the stack that Hulk Flash could ever hope for.

Want to bet? Watch a good Hulk Flash player in this matchup. You'll never even get to sculpt your hand to do anything, and you'll be amazed how bad Solidarity is when you can't sculpt your hand. EOT Brainstorm/Impulse? Flash in response. Better have two Forces or game over.

[Poron]

We can handle Flash, we just have to worse our SB playing 4 Disrupt instead of 4 Chain of Vapor/Hydroblast.

but we can do it.

[Blaukreuz]

in a Hulk Flash meta i would definitly play Spell Snare over Disrupt in the Sideboard.

Paying 1 Mana more is for Hulk Flash not that a big problem, especially when they know your plan in g3.

[noobslayer]

Apparently you're testing against Hulk Flash piloted by a chimpanzee. And even then, I question your results. I found it to be about 80-20 for Hulk. The Hulk Player is attempting to go off when Solidarity tries a cantrip, right?
Want to bet? Watch a good Hulk Flash player in this matchup. You'll never even get to sculpt your hand to do anything, and you'll be amazed how bad Solidarity is when you can't sculpt your hand. EOT Brainstorm/Impulse? Flash in response. Better have two Forces or game over.

We can handle Flash, we just have to worse our SB playing 4 Disrupt instead of 4 Chain of Vapor/Hydroblast.

but we can do it.
Apparently no one can read shit I type. I've played with Hulk a lot this past week. When I say a lot I mean close to 1,000 goldfishes, and well over 100 matches. So I can tell you honestly, that when Hulk goes off, maybe half the time do they have usable protection, and more than half of that is in the form of a Daze. I don't know about you, but I've never found it hard to tap an island. And Oh no, they go off while you are trying to sculpt your hand. You can safely do anything you want turn one, Hulk has about a 10% chance of going off on that turn. The key is not being stupid about what you play. Make them paranoid and don't play as many or any spells. The more Islands that hit your side of the table, the slimmer their chances get of doing anything relevant.

We do have a better control of the stack. They have two spells that do something: Brainstorm and Flash. If they tutor in response to something, it really hasn't netted them anything, where all our spells will do something for us.

You know Brainfreeze doesn't need a huge storm to be good right? You can use it after they spent their last turn tutoring to mill away their stacked library.

Also, the reason I'm using Stifle is because it's a 2-for-1, Disrupt is not. Stifle punishes them a lot worse by taking care of two combo pieces. I think maybe once in all my games, would I have had another flash AND protean hulk in hand to go off again.

EDIT:
Paying 1 Mana more is for Hulk Flash not that a big problem, especially when they know your plan in g3. You'd be surprised, but the builds not running 8 spirit guides (I don't know why you would, but I suspect they all have issues), are actually interestingly tight on mana. Even then, I'd prefer to stifle the Hulk trigger, because if I use disrupt, they still have a Hulk in hand, and that can always be a threat depending on what they draw.

[Goblin Snowman]

Noobslayer - What build are you testing against? I'm going against the one that's far better in the mirror, with 11 Protection MD, and 4 REB Boarded. And no, none of my Protection is Daze, it's Misdirection, Force, and Duress.

[noobslayer]

I have no clue as to why that deck would be playing REB (or misdirection for that matter, the deck is tight enough on cards to pitch when going off). The builds going for the turn 1 kill all the time via Caverns I found were less consistent than the other builds. Also, I'm not at liberty to show my list.

[Tacosnape]

Apparently no one can read shit I type. I've played with Hulk a lot this past week. When I say a lot I mean close to 1,000 goldfishes, and well over 100 matches.


And Oh no, they go off while you are trying to sculpt your hand. You can safely do anything you want turn one, Hulk has about a 10% chance of going off on that turn.

This combination of statements proves you either a liar or playing against a horrible pre-FS version of Hulk Flash. I'm going to assume the latter, as you strike me as pretty intelligent and not the type to make up your numbers.

Post-FS Hulk's chances of going off in response to that turn one Brainstorm are astronomically higher than 10%. My build goes off around 35% at that point. And if you're not playing a build fast enough to do that, then you have to cope with Force, Pact, Daze, and Duress.

Ironically, I think the slow control build of Hulk Flash is actually far easier for Solidarity to cope with, simply because Solidarity does indeed own the stack. The fast Hulk, though? Good luck.

[shteev]

then you suggest to try Think Twice over Peek. Ok, I'll try.

I tested the [Chain of Vapor > Hydroblast]SB idea, and imho I was right. I have never regret to have 4 Chain of Vapor MD instead then 4 Hydroblast, even vs Goblins.

Chain of Vapor is no good against Burn decks, tho...

[noobslayer]

I am playing a pre-FS build because what's the point in testing against a deck that won't be a concern for the Grand Prix? While I'm not going for the turn one win, that 10% is very accurate (This is mostly because does indeed have issues hitting two mana in about 15-20% of its games). If I were to pad my numbers it would be higher, but fortunately for Solidarity that is the case. I'd like you to trust me on that, as the build I'm using I've had all week to get familiar with, so I'd say I can competently pilot it.

The slow Hulk is probably easier to deal with, that's true, but I also think the slower Hulk (it may be all of .5 turns slower on average anyways), is more stable, and a lot deadlier. The fast Hulk expends it resources quicker, and Daze is really its only reliable protection when going off (That's only if they hit their land drop after throwing out a caverns). With that said I'm not sure which is harder to deal with, but I do know if I play this at the GP, I'll have good understanding of the mechanical workings for Hulk, and that is always a huge advantage for the Solidarity player.

I think it's about time Gearhart made a statement about the current situation of things.

[Tacosnape]

I am playing a pre-FS build because what's the point in testing against a deck that won't be a concern for the Grand Prix? While I'm not going for the turn one win, that 10% is very accurate (This is mostly because does indeed have issues hitting two mana in about 15-20% of its games). If I were to pad my numbers it would be higher, but fortunately for Solidarity that is the case. I'd like you to trust me on that, as the build I'm using I've had all week to get familiar with, so I'd say I can competently pilot it.

I'll take your word for it as much as it boggles my mind, as I haven't been messing with pre-FS too much (Can't afford the GP trip) and you generally know what you're talking about.

I will say though that the post FS build (mine at least) crushes Solidarity, and while not -as- resilient as one packing full complements of Duresses and Dazes, is still resilient enough to have failed to go off through a Solidarity counterwall only once (Tried a turn 1 pre-board with only a Pact backing it up and Solidarity had double force.)

[Deep6er]

Ok, seems like some intervention is necessary here. First things first, Noobslayer is absolutely acurate that if I were to board cards for Hulk Flash, it would be Stifle. The BEST way to but time against Hulk Flash is to 2 for 1 them. Granted that sometimes they will have the busted nut draw that spooges you out of the game turn 1 with counter backup (which is one of the reasons the deck is stupid broken), but more often than not, they don't. There are a couple of other interesting things to note. This is the time for The Red Tide. Meddling Mages outnumber Goblins. Many people are playing shitty Fish decks in order to try to beat Hulk. That means a lot of Mages. The Red Tide deals with Mages very effectively. Incidentally, against the Kiki kill version of Hulk Flash, Sudden Shock is a complete beating. Now, it is important to note that should anyone be going to the GP, they will not see me playing Solidarity. For this, I apologize. Flash Hulk is ENTIRELY too broken. I want to look back after the (hopeful) bannings and say, "I played Hulk at GP: Flash, and you want to ban Goblin Lackey!?" (To the people who always complained that Goblin Lackey/Ringleader/Vial was broken, this is a direct comparison for what ABSOLUTELY NEEDS to get banned.) Anyway, as sad as I am to admit it, I would recommend that anyone who has a vested interest in winning the GP to play Hulk. Seriously, the deck is that stupid broken. Even dedicated hate decks have been going 50-50 with it. When a dedicated fucking Hate deck goes 50-50 with the deck it's hating on, you know there's a problem. Goddammit, I fucking hate Hulk Flash.

[Hanni]

I just wanted to chime in and say that U/B Flash version that I played against with IBA seems like it would be a nightmare for Solidarity. From what you've said Noobslayer, I have this feeling that you've been playing against the Mirage Tutors (or maybe Living Wish?) version. The U/B version runs anywhere from 13-16 disruption spells which include Force, Daze, Duress, and Unmask... in the maindeck. I'm not sure what else they have postboard. Considering that even the slower U/B Flash version I'm talking about still goes off turn 2-4... it just seems really bad for other combo decks.

I'm with Gearhart on this one... if you want to play combo, just play some variant of Hulk Flash.

However, I disagree with you Gearhart that the dedicated hate decks only go 50/50 against Flash. I was going about 50/50 with my Fish list that was designed to beat Goblins... since then, I've put Duress back in the MD with SB Leylines and I've been doing much better. Considering that my deck still isn't completely dedicated to beating Hulk Flash (it still has a good matchup against Goblins), I'd think that the actual dedicated hate decks would do even better against it. This is also considering the matchup against the U/B Flash list, which is the strongest version for dealing with Fish decks. The faster and less resilient Mirage Tutor/Living Wish lists are going to put up even worse results against dedicated hate decks.

That's my opinion on the matter, at any rate.

[noobslayer]

@Hanni. It should be noted that there are really no good lists running Living Wish. And Gearhart's numbers are right. Hate decks are having a rough time generating a favorable match-up versus Flash, and at this price they are ruining other match-ups, which are still going to comprise a better part of the field.

[Hanni]

Well, I didn't mean to say that all of the dedicated hate decks were going to be good against Hulk Flash. Most of them probably are putting up bad numbers against Hulk Flash decks. I think a major reason for this, for the moment, is bad development. People continue to run terrible narrow cards that are good against 1 Hulk Flash variant and bad against another (like Children of Korlis, for example). This will probably continue to be the trend following all the way up to the GP due to limited time to prepare.

I think that appropriately built hate decks will do good against Hulk Flash, however many of those are actually built.

I also wasn't implying that Living Wish builds were good. So far, I've been most impressed by builds similar to IBA's.

I think I did fairly well against IBA with my untuned Fish list the first time we played, considering the cirumstances; I didn't know what list to expect, I'd never seen a U/B list prior, and I made considerable mistakes based on this, as well as having sideboard problems with MWS for the first few postboard games. After tuning my list a little and knowing alot more about the matchup, I think I'd do much better than I did (I went 4-6). I still have a solid Goblins matchup too.

My intentions wasn't to talk about Fish in the Solidarity thread though. I just wanted to point out that I think the U/B Flash list is going to give Solidarity troubles... and that I agree with Gearhart; if you plan on playing combo, just play Hulk Flash.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I played the Mono U version today in the GPT at Millenium today and finished 9th off of breakers :frown: . But anyways, there were 25 people there, 7 of which were playing Hulk-Flash. I was in a toss up over which was better, Stifle or Spell Snare. I was able to pick up the Snares for free, so I ran with them. I played against Hulk-Flash twice, and won both times. Spell Snare was RETARDED, and I don't regret my decision one bit. Herbig already thought it was good, and I was skeptical at first, but after Flash became the Retarded Deck To Beat, I figured I had to give Spell Snare a go. It isn't just good against Flash, it says counter Meddling Mage, Hymn To Tourach, Counter Balance, Chalice for 1, and the list goes on. I really like how Stifle 2 for 1's the Hulk-Flash player though. I'm still not sure which is better. Stifle just seems a little narrow.

[noobslayer]

Stifle is a relevant spell in all of your combo match-ups.

[largebrandon]

Stifle is a relevant spell in all of your combo match-ups.

True, but Spell Snare is relevant in all of your hate matchups

[Bahamuth]

I played the Mono U version today in the GPT at Millenium today and finished 9th off of breakers :frown: . But anyways, there were 25 people there, 7 of which were playing Hulk-Flash. I was in a toss up over which was better, Stifle or Spell Snare. I was able to pick up the Snares for free, so I ran with them. I played against Hulk-Flash twice, and won both times. Spell Snare was RETARDED, and I don't regret my decision one bit. Herbig already thought it was good, and I was skeptical at first, but after Flash became the Retarded Deck To Beat, I figured I had to give Spell Snare a go. It isn't just good against Flash, it says counter Meddling Mage, Hymn To Tourach, Counter Balance, Chalice for 1, and the list goes on. I really like how Stifle 2 for 1's the Hulk-Flash player though. I'm still not sure which is better. Stifle just seems a little narrow.

Did you play the Think Twice version? And, as Spell snare has this many uses, what did/would you board them in for in various matchups like ***** or B/W Confidant?

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Did you play the Think Twice version? And, as Spell snare has this many uses, what did/would you board them in for in various matchups like ***** or B/W Confidant?

No, I play Mono U, and I do not run Think Twice. I mainly boarded them in that day because I knew Hulk-Flash was crawling around all over the place, and FOW just isn't enough to stop them. Also, Remand is horrible against them, unless it can hit a flashed-back Cabal Therapy. I boarded out 4x Remand for 4x Spell Snare when I played against Hulk, and they were insane. I also boarded them in against 4c Thresh, as he had Meddling Mages MD, and possible Counter Balances coming out of the board. True Stifle does help in combo mirrors, but doesn't Spell Snare as well? Against Belcher and TES, Spell Snaring a Cabal Ritual, a Desperate Ritual, or a Burning Wish can be pretty good. Sure Stifle nabs the Storm trigger at the end, but Spell Snare seems to be more flexible than Stifle in my opinion. Back on topic, you would also obviousely board in Spell Snare against any black x deck packing Hymn, Sinkhole, etc. I'd like to hear Gearharts opinion on Spell Snare.

[Bahamuth]

As Goblins isn't really popular in my meta, I think I'm going to try Sideboarding 4 Spell Snare as well. Just one thing that worries me is, what should I take out of my deck sideboarding vs. Thresh? Cards to board in are: 4 Spell Snare, 3 Twincast, 1-2 Brain Freeze and one bounce spell. That's 9-10 cards!

Is anyone going to play Solidarity at the GP by the way?

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

As Goblins isn't really popular in my meta, I think I'm going to try Sideboarding 4 Spell Snare as well. Just one thing that worries me is, what should I take out of my deck sideboarding vs. Thresh? Cards to board in are: 4 Spell Snare, 3 Twincast, 1-2 Brain Freeze and one bounce spell. That's 9-10 cards!

Is anyone going to play Solidarity at the GP by the way?

I am either playing Solidarity, or Hulk Flash. I really haven't fully decided yet. I don't want to give up on Solidarity yet. We shall see. Anyways, for that particular GPT, I cut 1x Brainfreeze and 1x Twincast out of the board during the insertion of the 4x Spell Snare. Against Thresh, I ended up boarding in 2x Twincast, 1x Brainfreeze, 1x Echoing Truth, and 2x Spell Snare. I boarded out 4x Remand, 1x Turnabout, and 1x Meditate. The reason I didn't board in all 4 Spell Snares was, well, exactly what you stated above. I couldn't afford to take any more cards out. The cards I boarded out above are what I always side out against Thresh generally, but with the 1x less Brainfreeze and Twincast, I was able to incorporate the random 2x Spell Snare. I think I snipered down a Meddling Mage with it, but it's impact wasn't as large as it was against Hulk-Flash obv.

[Meeee]

I played the Mono U version today in the GPT at Millenium today and finished 9th off of breakers :frown: . But anyways, there were 25 people there, 7 of which were playing Hulk-Flash. I was in a toss up over which was better, Stifle or Spell Snare. I was able to pick up the Snares for free, so I ran with them. I played against Hulk-Flash twice, and won both times. Spell Snare was RETARDED, and I don't regret my decision one bit. Herbig already thought it was good, and I was skeptical at first, but after Flash became the Retarded Deck To Beat, I figured I had to give Spell Snare a go. It isn't just good against Flash, it says counter Meddling Mage, Hymn To Tourach, Counter Balance, Chalice for 1, and the list goes on. I really like how Stifle 2 for 1's the Hulk-Flash player though. I'm still not sure which is better. Stifle just seems a little narrow.


I'm one of the Hulk Flash players he beat at the GPT, spell snare was definitively a beating for me. I was playing the Mirage tutor build of hulk flash with a slightly rogue win condition that's only 8 cards but requires attacking. Solidarity seemed to be the control in the match, only comboing off when it was certain or when forced to. For example a cabal therapy on the stack when I knew 3 of his 5 cards from a previous therapy. The match didn’t seem very favorable for me, but the U/B version of flash control seems like it could be a much larger problem and any builds that decide to run chant could also be bad times.

[Tacosnape]

God help us when Hulk Flash has changed the format to a point where "Stifle seems too narrow" and the alternative to said narrowness is Spell Snare. That's like saying a deli sandwich is too unhealthy, so I'm going to order a Big Mac instead.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

God help us when Hulk Flash has changed the format to a point where "Stifle seems too narrow" and the alternative to said narrowness is Spell Snare. That's like saying a deli sandwich is too unhealthy, so I'm going to order a Big Mac instead.

Wait, are you trying to attack Spell Snare? Based off your food analogy, it sure looks like it. I'd like to hear your reasoning behind this statement.

[Soto]

Can we get a decklist of the latest build with spellsnare?

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Can we get a decklist of the latest build with spellsnare?

Well, my maindeck is the same lol. I sideboard the 4x Spell Snare.
(Keep in mind, this was my SB just for the GPT, and it will probably be changed for GP Colombus.)


1x Stroke of Genius
2x Hydroblast
1x Brainfreeze
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Echoing Truth
1x Rebuild
1x Turnabout
1x Meditate
2x Twincast
4x Spell Snare

[Poron]

It's just a SB change... take my SB and change the 4 Chain of Vapor with 4 Spellsnare.

edit: fuuu... you cut 1 Brain Freeze, are you sure it is the best slot?

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

It's just a SB change... take my SB and change the 4 Chain of Vapor with 4 Spellsnare.

edit: fuuu... you cut 1 Brain Freeze, are you sure it is the best slot?


Gearhart doesn't like Brainfreeze in the SB entirely, but I'm not him. However, I don't think two of them are necessary. I didn't miss that extra Brainfreeze at all. I still enjoy one in the board, but that second one seemed like the deadest slot out of the rest of my board.


... Why were you running 4x Chain of Vapor in your board!?!? wtf?

[Poron]

Because I found Chain of Vapor being strictly better than Hydroblast.

Hydroblast was good against Goblins and Pyrostatic Pillar. And imho the same is for Chain of Vapor, but CoV is much more versatile, bouncing Trinisphere, Smokestack, Chalice of the Void (different from 1), Sphere of Resistance, Meddling Mage, etc.

Putting 4x MD helped a lot in many, many matchups. But now with Hulk Flash I suppose they're not such a good board...

[Shriekmaw]

Because I found Chain of Vapor being strictly better than Hydroblast.

Hydroblast was good against Goblins and Pyrostatic Pillar. And imho the same is for Chain of Vapor, but CoV is much more versatile, bouncing Trinisphere, Smokestack, Chalice of the Void (different from 1), Sphere of Resistance, Meddling Mage, etc.

Putting 4x MD helped a lot in many, many matchups. But now with Hulk Flash I suppose they're not such a good board...


Are you insane? Chain of Vapor better than Hydroblast in the sideboard of Solidarity? I'm not sure what you run in the board, but I always found that Chain of Vapor, Wipe Away, Rebuild, Echoing Truth was always been enought bounce for me.

What do the rest of you think?

[Silverdragon]

I can understand the logic behind it. Hydroblast is only good in the Goblins matchup (and Burn but who plays that anyway) and for randomly wishing a counter against Burning Wish, Boil, Devastating Dreams and other nonsense.
Chain of Vapor deals with all of Goblins creatures except Piledriver and can bounce stuff Blast can't counter or destroy.
So it's pretty much a question of how often you need to counter the stuff Chain can't deal with versus how often you need to temporarily deal with stuff Blast can't counter/destroy.
For actual bounce I never needed more than Echoing Truth and Wipe Away. Rebuild was ok in some situations but more often than not the game was already lost before I was able to Wish->Rebuild.
Maybe with more and more people playing Chalices around here I'll have to use it more often.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Because I found Chain of Vapor being strictly better than Hydroblast.

Hydroblast was good against Goblins and Pyrostatic Pillar. And imho the same is for Chain of Vapor, but CoV is much more versatile, bouncing Trinisphere, Smokestack, Chalice of the Void (different from 1), Sphere of Resistance, Meddling Mage, etc.

Putting 4x MD helped a lot in many, many matchups. But now with Hulk Flash I suppose they're not such a good board...

Yes, 4x Chain of vapor is now horrible with Hulk-Flash around, but I don't even see how it was any good pre-Flash. I mean, the Goblins player is almost always going to play their first Chalice set on one, so that shuts off Chain of Vapor right there. That is why I board in only 2-3 Hydroblasts against Goblins, because I don't want my hand full of them if they resolve a Chalice for one. Boarding in 4x 1cc bounce spells against Goblins seems like a bad move. Also, if there isn't a Chalice set on one, why not just destroy or counter the goblin via Hydroblast rather than bounce it and let them re-cast it next turn. I heard getting rid of a Pyrostatic Pillar for good is better than putting it back into their hand, regardless of whether or not you can go off or not. Also, you speak of CoV shining against Trinisphere, Smoke Stack, Sphere of resistance etc. Ummm... Rebuild? If Trinisphere is in play, that CoV is going to cost 3 mana, just like Rebuild! The only difference is, Rebuild bounces ALL artifacts for 3 mana, CoV will only bounce any one artifact for 3 mana. Rebuild is soooo much better against Stax than CoV is. Your arguement saying CoV was "strictly" better than Hydroblast is pretty weak.

[Blaukreuz]

@Shady: why don't you run one single Wipe Away in the sideboard?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYiKdJoSsb8 :cool:

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

@Shady: why don't you run one single Wipe Away in the sideboard?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYiKdJoSsb8 :cool:

My orignal sideboard prior to the addition of the 4x Spell Snare did run 1x Wipe Away. Believe me, I love the card, but it just couldn't stay after I added Spell Snare. I wish it could be in there.

[lavafrogg]

In our new meta disrupt and stifle are the all stars of the sideboard. I took this to a 23 man tourney:

1 Stroke
1 Starstorm
1 Rage
1 SShock
1 Truth
1 Turnabout
3 Disrputs
3 Stifles
3 Twincasts

I moved the last meditate the main over a think twice and owned face. The meta is now filled with combo and anti combo. So the Disrupts helped against both matchups with the stifles for faster combo and twincasts for anti/combo.

All i can say is use your flash of insights to protect from experpate.

The goblins match up was weakened but you have to lose something. Hopefully they will also adjust and give up a little speed.

[lavafrogg]

In our new meta disrupt and stifle are the all stars of the sideboard. I took this to a 23 man tourney:

1 Stroke
1 Starstorm
1 Rage
1 SShock
1 Truth
1 Turnabout
3 Disrputs
3 Stifles
3 Twincasts

I moved the last meditate the main over a think twice and owned face. The meta is now filled with combo and anti combo. So the Disrupts helped against both matchups with the stifles for faster combo and twincasts for anti/combo.

All i can say is use your flash of insights to protect from experpate.

The goblins match up was weakened but you have to lose something. Hopefully they will also adjust and give up a little speed.

[GAUDARD]

Play many games against flash?


I've played a few and I've found:

If the player is a moron, just play. If they're not a moron always leave 1 open for the daze, so no more tapping out eot. I guess an exception would be when you have to find a FOW.

Really considering playing Spell Snares in the board. Considering cutting the red since since it will also counter meddling mage. Maybe cutting a sac land as well since there will be that many more stifles in the field.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Play many games against flash?


I've played a few and I've found:

If the player is a moron, just play. If they're not a moron always leave 1 open for the daze, so no more tapping out eot. I guess an exception would be when you have to find a FOW.

Really considering playing Spell Snares in the board. Considering cutting the red since since it will also counter meddling mage. Maybe cutting a sac land as well since there will be that many more stifles in the field.


Do it, this card is INSANE. Don't cut the sac land though. There is really no good reason to cut one. Stifle/Trickbind is not a solid reason. That's like saying I'm not going to ever cast High Tide because I am afraid there are too many Counterspells in my meta. Just play smart with your fetch lands. There is no good reason to walk into Stifle, so if you see them running blue or you know what they are playing prior, sac your fetches during your turn or when they go to tap out for a Brainstorm or something. Cutting a fetchland does not deal with your fear of a Stifle ability. Also, not tapping out the first few turns in fear of Daze also seems like a poor idea. I would rather they daze my Brainstorm or Impulse than my FOW or Spell Snare. Drawing out their Dazes is much better than fearing that there is one in their hand. If you don't play stuff in fear of Daze, the Flash player will beat you. You have to play business spells on both turns 1 and 2 if you have them in your hand. If they return an Island to Daze it, so be it. They are down a Daze and they lose a land in play for the turn. Don't hide from Daze.

[GreenOne]

I would rather they daze my Brainstorm or Impulse than my FOW or Spell Snare.

They don't daze your impulse, they Flash in response so that you can't Spell Snare and they can daze your FOW

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

They don't daze your impulse, they Flash in response so that you can't Spell Snare and they can daze your FOW

That wasn't my point. I'm just making an example out of two random spells to show we shouldn't be hiding around Daze. Hiding around Flash is fine, especially if you Peeked or something and saw it in their hand.

[GAUDARD]

They don't daze your impulse, they Flash in response so that you can't Spell Snare and they can daze your FOW

Yes, that's what I'm saying. You eot impulse, they flash in response, and you just gave them another hard counter because you tapped out.


I actually meant cut a sac land for an island.

Do you think if running 4 spell snares in the board that red could be cut?

[NQN]

Hi,
i just wanted to post my Solidarity list so u can comment it:
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
12 Islands

4 FoW
4 Remand
4 Impulse
4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Brainstorm
3 Turnabout
3 Cunning WIsh
2 Brain Freeze
2 Opt
1 Think Twice
1 Repeal
1 Snap
1 Flash of Insight
1 Twincast

Sideboard:
4 Spell Snare
3 Hydroblast
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Echoing Truth
1 Stifle
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
What could i add?

I play 2 Bouncespells Maindeck because i play in a Fish/NQG-Meta where u have to handle Meddling Mage every second game. Could u help me with the last 2 SB slots?
Greetz...Not Quite Noob:smile:

[noobslayer]

Think Twice is better as two more Opt. If you are going to play two maindecked bounce spells, one Snap is fine, but the other should be Echoing Truth/Wipe Away.

[Bahamuth]

Hi,
i just wanted to post my Solidarity list so u can comment it:
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
12 Islands

4 FoW
4 Remand
4 Impulse
4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Brainstorm
3 Turnabout
3 Cunning WIsh
2 Brain Freeze
2 Opt
1 Think Twice
1 Repeal
1 Snap
1 Flash of Insight
1 Twincast

Sideboard:
4 Spell Snare
3 Hydroblast
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Echoing Truth
1 Stifle
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
What could i add?

I play 2 Bouncespells Maindeck because i play in a Fish/NQG-Meta where u have to handle Meddling Mage every second game. Could u help me with the last 2 SB slots?
Greetz...Not Quite Noob:smile:

Now I didn't count the number of cards in your deck, but I don't see Meditate anywhere.

I don't think playing only 1 Flash of Insight is a good idea. I'd cut your sole Think Twice for one more.

Playing MB bounce isn't really something I would easily do, but if you like it, got with it.

As for your sideboard, maybe 1 more Brain Freeze to board in vs. Thresh, and possibly a Wipe Away (?).

[Silverdragon]

There are a lot of options for your last slots. First you can add Wipe Away and/or Rebuild for uncounterable bounce and to bounce multiple artifacts at once. Another possible inclusion is to add the last Brainfreeze to the board so you can board one in and go for the "small-freeze" plan against Fishdecks.
Then again I only see one Twincast in the deck so 2x Twincast in the board is probably the best addition as Twincast is simply one of the strongest cards against Threshold and Fish.
If you don't like Twincast for whatever reason you can also stock up on Blast, Stifle or Think Twice.
Two cards that aren't so great for your board but should be mentioned imho are Chain of Vapor for a wishable 1cc bounce and Pongify as a narrow but permanent solution to Meddling Mage.

The maindeck is 57 cards btw so I assume you forgot to type 3 Meditate

[noobslayer]

This is my current Mono Blue version of the deck.

// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
12 [B] Island

// Spells
4 [LG] Reset
4 [FE] High Tide
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [JU] Flash of Insight
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [RAV] Remand
4 [VI] Impulse
4 [IN] Opt
3 [US] Turnabout
3 [TE] Meditate
1 [SOK] Twincast
2 [SC] Brain Freeze
4 [MM] Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 3 [SOK] Twincast
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [US] Stroke of Genius
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 3 [SC] Stifle

Fairly standard, with notable differences being in the board. I'm running four bounce, two Echoing Truth namely. And three Stifle. Stifle hates on fast combo, and helps the mirror when you battle for lands (use on fetches). I like being able to cast or wish for Echoing Truth game 2 versus decks packing Empty the Warrens. It also means I can board in two bounce spells versus Meddling Mage, while still having feasible access to all three.

Stifle is also good in combo over Spell Snare I believe is because when you cast stifle, they have fully extended, and used a much larger portion of their available resources. This is huge versus a deck like TES or Empty the Warrens. Granted people might say Spell Snare hits Meddling Mage and Flash. I believe it's better to 2-for-1 the Flash player, than counter Meddling Mage. After all, since Flash has come about, its not like fish has acquired some sort of new power, it and other decks with Meddling Mage are just going to be more obvious in the metagame. I'm hesitant to play this because of that, but I think a competent Solidarity player can go even with Meddling Mage decks if they know what they are doing, and how to bluff.

[GAUDARD]

After some playing I'm considering REB in place of Sudden Shock. Thoughts?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Why not playing Disrupt in the SB! It helps alot against flash and Tendrils.

[noobslayer]

Why not playing Disrupt in the SB! It helps alot against flash and Tendrils.

Read back several pages.

We've been tirelessly discussing this issue. It comes down to Stifle (Myself and David Gearhart) vs. Spell Snare (Nantuko_Shady) vs. Disrupt (seemingly everyone else).

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Read back several pages.

We've been tirelessly discussing this issue. It comes down to Stifle (Myself and David Gearhart) vs. Spell Snare (Nantuko_Shady) vs. Disrupt (seemingly everyone else).

Lets rule out Disrupt right now, seeming as how it is much worse than both Stifle and Spell Snare against Flash. Ok, continue.

[Tacosnape]

Why not playing Disrupt in the SB! It helps alot against flash and Tendrils.

Awesome plan! We hadn't considered that! Also, I hear Evacuation is fantastic in our SB too. And Pyroblast is awesome in Vial Goblins. Outdated tech for the win.


Read back several pages.

We've been tirelessly discussing this issue. It comes down to Stifle (Myself and David Gearhart) vs. Spell Snare (Nantuko_Shady) vs. Disrupt (seemingly everyone else).

If I have to pick, I'm currently in the Spell Snare camp, though I can see the merits of Stifle. The reason I pick the Snare is for how well it handles all the splash hate we're going to recieve. IE, meddlingmage.bluebasedaggrocontrol.dec.

Really, though, I'm in the camp of "Why are we playing this deck in a format where Fish and Threshold and a better combo deck run rampant?" The only decks that are fixing to be viable all have pretty good Solidarity matchups.

Also, I've noticed a trend shift, at least on here, towards the slower Hulk Flash decks with more disruption. Does this make Trickbind a viable option at all, since against decks packing it we are more likely to have time to get two lands in play? Or is it too soon to make the assumption that said trend shift on here will translate to tournament play?

[Hanni]

Also, I've noticed a trend shift, at least on here, towards the slower Hulk Flash decks with more disruption. Does this make Trickbind a viable option at all, since against decks packing it we are more likely to have time to get two lands in play? Or is it too soon to make the assumption that said trend shift on here will translate to tournament play?

The slower versions typically run lots of discard (Duress MD, sometimes Unmask MD, sometimes Therapy SB), so Trickbind seems less effective than Spell Snare (which can hit their Lim-Dul's Vaults and Diabolic Visions/Impulses). However, you should have plenty enough time to cast it if they don't hit you with any discard.

[GAUDARD]

Why not playing Disrupt in the SB! It helps alot against flash and Tendrils.

Maybe I should point out that it does not stop MM. Oh, well maybe I'll just play Flash.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Good luck to all those who dare bring Solidarity to GP Colombus. :cool:

[Bahamuth]

I've noticed most people on here tend to play 1 Brain Freeze (or sometimes none at all) in the SB. My question is: Should this single Brain Freeze be boarded in vs. decks like Thresh? And if there are no Freezes in the board, is 1 boarded out to wish for in other machups?

[GAUDARD]

2-3 Drop at Columbus...

Probably should have just stuck with teh br0kenz0r deck...

But it was fun. Didn't play any Flash. Played:

BW LD (sinkhole, icequake, vindicate, 6/5 destroy target land guy)
0-2 No remands or forces mean I lose lots of land... Shouldn't have been a bad matchup, just got unlucky.

Mono-U Wizards (tims, curiosity, counterspell)
2-0 Casual guy, probably doesn't care to play against solidarity now.

Fish
0-2 Turn 2, turn 3 meddling mage is some good in game 1. Turn 2 mage, turn 3 arcane lab is some good.

Goblins
2-1 All three close games. I think all he boarded were blasts.

TES
1-2 Friendly female, playing storm combo. Zantid Swarm is some good.


The red blasts in my board only came in one match and he had the hate and had really really good draws against me. It's always nice to see storm combo on the otherside of the table and win over top of them, but due to zantid swarm and my underestimating the turn (2) the deck could go off I lose. Was an awesome turnout, guess I wasn't the only one amazingly, so who else played it at the GP?

[nightshade81]

I was wondering if anyone gave Mystical Tutor any reconsideration because of Pact of Negation? When you Mystical Tutor for Pact of Negation it’s “like” Merchant Scrolling for a Force of Will.

Reasons to not include Mystical Tutor:
1. Card disadvantage
2. Requires an additional card to use if drawn mid-combo (personally I think this is more important then the card disadvantage itself)
3. Don’t want to see multiply copies
4. Let’s opponent see card (don’t really think this one is important because Cunning Wish cost more and does this)

The first three reasons are very valid counter points to not include Mystical Tutor. This is why I’m not advocating Mystical Tutor but merely wanted to raise its discussion.

An analysis against the four major archetypes:

Aggro: Mystical Tutor efficiently gets combo pieces and positively improves the match-up. But this is the match-up that needs the least amount of improvement and adding Mystical Tutors to specifically improve this match-up is very flawed logic. [If you test with a Pact and a Wipe then results are actually worse because of the fact they are dead draws]

Control: Mystical Tutor’s card disadvantage is not a positive force, but now being able to Tutor up Pact of Negation allows you to keep card parity. Although this deck generally will beat true control regardless if you have Mystical Tutor in it or not, and overall I don’t think it will affect the mach-up one way or another. Multiples hurt a lot though.

Combo: Against fast combo Mystical Tutor is decent. It gets you additional Force of Will at a heavy cost but the protection is worth it, or it gets you combo pieces. I haven’t tested Mystical Tutor against slow combo or the mirror. But it’s my guess that it will have results similar to the control match-up or hurt the match-up.

Aggro-Control: This is the match-up the matters the most. This is where I hope the most intelligent debate regarding Mystical Tutor develops.

Changes to deck for testing:
-4 Opt/Peek

+1 Pact of Negation
+2 Mystical Tutor
+1 Wipe Away

In testing against Thres with MD Mages I found very positive results. Being able to tutor up a MD bounce spell is very nice or getting an additional Force if they don’t have the Mage. Having a proxy 7 Forces and 3 MB bounce spells really helps. I don’t think it brings the match-up all the way to positive but gets the deck closer IMO.

I’m not saying Mystical Tutor should be in the deck. All I wanted to do is raise idea that it should be reconsidered or at least debated.

I don’t want this to turn into “your stupid”, “mystical tutor is bad”, arguments please have a well thought out post before replying to my argument. I understand that Mystical Tutor has many drawbacks and I am curious to see if Pact of Negation is enough to reintegrate the card. Specifically relating to the aggro-control match.

[Tacosnape]

Who exactly erroneously determined Pact of Negation has a place in this deck?

[noobslayer]

The people who aren't playing the deck. Mystical Tutor has no place here either. You want everything to be able to do something during the combo. Opt is far better than mystical tutor in that way, and Opt can also find you lands.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Was an awesome turnout, guess I wasn't the only one amazingly, so who else played it at the GP?

I took Mono U Solidarity to a 5-4 finish. It was rather dissapointing, but oh well.

I beat Gro, Elves, Goblins, CRET Belcher, and UgW Thresh.


I lost to Black X deck, Black x deck, Angel Stax, and Meat Hooks.


This def. was not the deck to play, but I had a blast anyways. :cool:

[barron]

What was the deck that you ran?

[GreenOne]

What was the deck that you ran?


I took Mono U Solidarity

Reading FTW! :wink:

[barron]

well really...including SBs and compensation for flash was there only *1* mono blue solidarity build?

[noobslayer]

well really...including SBs and compensation for flash was there only *1* mono blue solidarity build?

No, there was no real compensation for Flash. His list is mine, except:
-2 Opt
+2 Peek

And our boards are different. Mine is this:

Common wish targets:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate

Bounce package:
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away

Control boarding:
2 Brainfreeze
3 Twincast

Anti-combo:
3 Stifle

I have two Echoing Truth vs Empty the Warrens kills, and so I can still wish for one. It is also handy that I can board in an E. Truth and a Wipe Away, and still have a moderate selection of bounce in the off chance I need to wish for one. I believe my build to be the most optimal for mono-blue Solidarity.

Side Note: In a combo heavy metagame, you can replace one Brainfreeze in the board with the fourth Stifle.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

well really...including SBs and compensation for flash was there only *1* mono blue solidarity build?

My board was

1x Stroke of Genius
1x Brainfreeze
2x Hydroblast
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Echoing Truth
1x Rebuild
1x Meditate
1x Turnabout
2x Twincast
4x Spell Snare


That sideboard was completely meta-gamed, and after the bannings, Spell Snares will leave the board most likely for a third Twincast, a second brainfreeze, a Wipe Away, and either a third Blast or a random Pongify. Or who knows, maybe my board will remain the same. Spell Snare is just sooo damn good.

[Tacosnape]

I find it ironic that neither of you actually played Flash the whole time.

EDIT: How in god's name did you lose to Meathooks considering you even had Snares for post-board Mages?

Re-Edit: Good job on beating Thresh and Belcher though. Those matches annoy me.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I find it ironic that neither of you actually played Flash the whole time.

EDIT: How in god's name did you lose to Meathooks considering you even had Snares for post-board Mages?

Re-Edit: Good job on beating Thresh and Belcher though. Those matches annoy me.


1.) Flash is an obvious concern, but it isn't unwinnable for us. I got crushed recently when I played against Sadin's list, as Counterbalance is just too damn broken, but I am no longer going to be concerned about Flash after justice is done on June 1st. Also, Noobslayer didn't even play Solidarity at the GP. He ran 4c Gro I think.


2.) Meathooks was tough for me. I never drew a Spell Snare post-board, and he had a fast clock both games. Meathooks is like a bad version of Threshold, but it has all of the components that are really strong against Solidarity (i.e. Meddling Mage, Daze, Fow etc.) Meathooks is not an easy matchup at all in my opinion.

[Kronicler]

Meathooks is like a bad version of Threshold

How is it worse exactly? IMO it is a better version of threshold, beating gobos and being much harder to hate out than either thresh or gobos.

Kronicler

[Volt]

2.) Meathooks was tough for me. I never drew a Spell Snare post-board, and he had a fast clock both games. Meathooks is like a bad version of Threshold, but it has all of the components that are really strong against Solidarity (i.e. Meddling Mage, Daze, Fow etc.) Meathooks is not an easy matchup at all in my opinion.

Actually, didn't you die with a Spell Snare in hand 2nd game? I think you were saving it for a Meddling Mage which never came. And you got stuck on 3 lands, which didn't help your cause.

[noobslayer]

Shady speaks the truth. I did not play Solidarity. However, now that Flash is banned, I will be once again. My deck will remain the same however, as I enjoy having access to stifle in the board. (It means I get to board 8 cards in the mirror, w00t)

[Citrus-God]

How is it worse exactly? IMO it is a better version of threshold, beating gobos and being much harder to hate out than either thresh or gobos.

Kronicler

Tormod's Crypt, Leyline of the Void.... Tarmogoyf says hi.

Threshold can beat Goblins, but just not as well as I thought it would. Most losses you have against Goblins were due to play mistakes or you werent patient enough and couldnt stabilize when a random warcheif comes down and starts picking at you. Thankfully, Tarmogoyf is printed... now the deck is busted.

But if I had to choose, I'd probably run Meat Hooks against all things creature mirrors if I expect decks like RGSA and the like. Threshold should be chosen for the general meta if you expect Storm combo and such.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Actually, didn't you die with a Spell Snare in hand 2nd game? I think you were saving it for a Meddling Mage which never came. And you got stuck on 3 lands, which didn't help your cause.


Ahhh, right. Now I remember. I didn't take notes that match but I believe you were correct. I just sat there on 3 lands getting bashed by Slivers. Bad beatz.

[Tacosnape]

How is it worse exactly? IMO it is a better version of threshold, beating gobos and being much harder to hate out than either thresh or gobos.

It's worse against combo.


...So, has anything changed now that we're post-Flash as far as Solidarity goes?

[dre4m]

It's worse against combo.


...So, has anything changed now that we're post-Flash as far as Solidarity goes?

Well, I certainly wouldn't stuff the sideboards with Stifles or Spell Snares, but maybe you do want them for TES or CRET Belcher. hmmmmm....

[Tacosnape]

Attempting Spell Snare is still interesting to me. It's a single blue and stops almost all the cards we fear most: Meddling Mage, Chalice of the Void, Counterbalance, Hymn to Tourach, Sinkhole, and various combo Tutors like Infernal Tutor and Burning Wish.

Stifle fills a different function and gives us fight against faster combo decks. Rocks against TES and Zomg Belcher.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

It's worse against combo.


...So, has anything changed now that we're post-Flash as far as Solidarity goes?


We are OBV. very happy about Flash getting the axe. We can now feel "ok" about playing Solidarity, since it isn't automatically an inferior combo deck anymore, back when Flash was legal. After June 20th, the only changes I would advise would be to MAYBE cut the Spell Snares and go back to your original board, but I am rather fond of Spell Snare, and I will probably leave it in until it proves otherwise to me.

[Tacosnape]

We are OBV. very happy about Flash getting the axe. We can now feel "ok" about playing Solidarity, since it isn't automatically an inferior combo deck anymore, back when Flash was legal. After June 20th, the only changes I would advise would be to MAYBE cut the Spell Snares and go back to your original board, but I am rather fond of Spell Snare, and I will probably leave it in until it proves otherwise to me.

I'm going to be disappointed if Solidarity falls all the way to being "ok." It's the only combo deck I've ever had that I actually seriously enjoy playing short of, like, Gamekeeper Salvagers.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I'm going to be disappointed if Solidarity falls all the way to being "ok." It's the only combo deck I've ever had that I actually seriously enjoy playing short of, like, Gamekeeper Salvagers.


Ahh, I typed that weird. I didn't mean to say Solidarity is "ok" as in an ok quality deck. I meant that we can play Solidarity at major tournaments and feel good about our decision, knowing there isn't a combo deck out there that completely trumps us. (i.e. Flash) With Flash gone, I don't see why Solidarity would be a wrong choice to play.

[noobslayer]

I too agree in a sense. I think that at local tournaments Solidarity is more than a fine deck choice. I feel however, that if I were to participate in a larger event (say a Grand Prix), I would be more comfortable in choosing a deck like threshold or goblins, as I feel they can answer more, and hold their own better in the grueling rounds of play. I still advocate Solidarity as a deck to watch despite this.

[Tacosnape]

So, like, uh, I don't know if anyone at all is still playing the green splash, but if they are, I have tech to share that's either genius or horrible.

How do people feel about Quirion Dryad for Fish/Thresholdy type matches? I've been unable to get consistently good results with the U/G Determined-carrying build against Meddling Mage-packing decks. So I tried it out, and found three things:

1. I was quickly able to build it up to ridiculous proportions of the 6/6 to 7/7 range.

2. Playing it on turn 2 often wasn't the best idea. I seemed to have better results playing it around turn 4 (With Determined/Twincast/Remand/Reset mana open.)

3. I never fizzled out because of it, as far as I could tell. If I had it, I used it to kill. If I didn't, either they didn't get a mage and I could fight through the counterwall, or they had a mage or an overwhelming barrage of counters.

[Bahamuth]

So, like, uh, I don't know if anyone at all is still playing the green splash, but if they are, I have tech to share that's either genius or horrible.

How do people feel about Quirion Dryad for Fish/Thresholdy type matches? I've been unable to get consistently good results with the U/G Determined-carrying build against Meddling Mage-packing decks. So I tried it out, and found three things:

1. I was quickly able to build it up to ridiculous proportions of the 6/6 to 7/7 range.

2. Playing it on turn 2 often wasn't the best idea. I seemed to have better results playing it around turn 4 (With Determined/Twincast/Remand/Reset mana open.)

3. I never fizzled out because of it, as far as I could tell. If I had it, I used it to kill. If I didn't, either they didn't get a mage and I could fight through the counterwall, or they had a mage or an overwhelming barrage of counters.

I really like this idea, and I think it definately needs some testing. Especially since every deck will board out any kind of creature removal, giving your Dryads a very good chance of buying you many turns.

I've been thinking about a lot of really weird things to try to improve my matchups which are present in my meta. I tought about Repeals, to buy you a lot of time, some Misdirections in the SB to board in and even Teferi (which is probably horrible....)

[Hummingbird TG]

Well, Misdirection seems like some tech for the Black Disruption with beats matchup...deals with Sinkhole, Hymn to Tourach, Vindicate...Imagine if they keep a two land hand and go Sinkhole on you, then you blow up THEIR land instead...

[nightshade81]

Another card that is ignored that is simply amazing versus Fish is Drop of Honey/Porphyry Nodes. Besides being a Meddling Mage killer it very efficiently stalls the game. It can easily buy you until turn 8.

You play it turn 3 or whenever they manage to get 2 creatures down. They cannot race the card so they have to stop playing creatures. This automatically buys you until turn 5. On there turn 5/6 they now get their first opportunity to play creatures. Since their creatures don’t have haste and your life total should be somewhere around 10-12, you very easily get 2-3 more turns from here unless one of those creatures is a second Meddling Mage, so you have to go off in response on turn five.

Since Fish/Thres has a relatively low creature count many times the Node will kill all the creatures the player had and about 30% of the time the Node alone can buy you into turn 12 or so.

[Lukas Preuss]

I actually like the idea of Drop of Honey. I'm not sure how viable it would be, but have a couple of Drop of Honeys in my collection and don't know what to do with them. I will at least try it out... it sounds quite good against Fish and Threshold (especially since it doesn't need to target Mongoose anymore after the last errata).

Does anyone have other good suggestions for the green splash?

[Tacosnape]

I think that about covers it. Green has a big three:

Bound//Determined: Draws out counters or clears the path for a win. Also negates Chalice of the Void @ 1 counter. Has a downside of not letting Remand act as additional Brain Freezes and consequently makes you a little more vulnerable to Stifle.

Quirion Dryad: Alternate kill condition. Capable of reaching anywhere from 7/7 to 10/10 or higher in one turn with a mini combo-out, where the goal is merely to play as many spells as possible. Is less effective if the opponent guesses to keep a creature removal spell or two in.

Drop of Honey: Sweeps Meddling Mages, stalls for time. Is less effective if the opponent has 3+ creatures on the board or guesses to keep an enchantment removal spell or two in.

The only other cards I've considered much are Krosan Grip, which never seemed all that amazing to me, and Sandstorm, which is strictly a metagame call against Goblins and Empty the Warrens.

[Windux]

Quirion Dryad: You also can berserk it or Turnabout your opponent's creatures :)

[Tacosnape]

Quirion Dryad: You also can berserk it or Turnabout your opponent's creatures :)

Iunno about Berserk, but I've done the latter. I had one 1/1 Dryad on the board facing a threshed Mongoose and two Meddling Mages (On High Tide and Cunning Wish) I dropped a second, passed the turn, and before my opponent declared attackers, managed to play Reset and Cantrips until both Dryads were 7/7, then finished with a Turnabout on the opponent's creatures, making both dryads 8/8 and giving me a clear swing. I topdecked an Opt next turn, Opted into a Meditate, and Meditated them both to 10/10 before swinging lethal. Lots of fun.

[nightshade81]

I think that about covers it. Green has a big three:

Bound//Determined: Draws out counters or clears the path for a win. Also negates Chalice of the Void @ 1 counter. Has a downside of not letting Remand act as additional Brain Freezes and consequently makes you a little more vulnerable to Stifle.

Quirion Dryad: Alternate kill condition. Capable of reaching anywhere from 7/7 to 10/10 or higher in one turn with a mini combo-out, where the goal is merely to play as many spells as possible. Is less effective if the opponent guesses to keep a creature removal spell or two in.

Drop of Honey: Sweeps Meddling Mages, stalls for time. Is less effective if the opponent has 3+ creatures on the board or guesses to keep an enchantment removal spell or two in.

The only other cards I've considered much are Krosan Grip, which never seemed all that amazing to me, and Sandstorm, which is strictly a metagame call against Goblins and Empty the Warrens.

Compost is also a pretty good green splash card.


Iunno about Berserk, but I've done the latter. I had one 1/1 Dryad on the board facing a threshed Mongoose and two Meddling Mages (On High Tide and Cunning Wish) I dropped a second, passed the turn, and before my opponent declared attackers, managed to play Reset and Cantrips until both Dryads were 7/7, then finished with a Turnabout on the opponent's creatures, making both dryads 8/8 and giving me a clear swing. I topdecked an Opt next turn, Opted into a Meditate, and Meditated them both to 10/10 before swinging lethal. Lots of fun.

Why not combo during the declare attackers step and kill some crits?

[Bahamuth]

I think Misdirection might be just the tech we've been looking for to improver aggro-control matchups. If you can get your opponent to have 2 counters on the stack, for example: You play a High Tide, your opponent Forces, you play Reset in response, your opponent Forces again, then you can Misdirect one of the FoWs to the other and counter them both.

[Tacosnape]

Why not combo during the declare attackers step and kill some crits?

I have no idea. Good point.

I don't think my opponent would have actually swung into two Dryads against Solidarity.

Although that in itself might be another reason to run Dryad. Anything that makes people hesitate to swing at Solidarity can't be bad.

[Nihil Credo]

So what does your sideboard look like? I'm assuming something like:

1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Rebuild
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Bound//Determined
1 ?

[Tacosnape]

That's what I'm currently working on right now. Too many cards, not enough slots. When I tested the Quirion Dryads, I did it without Bound//Determined in the board just for the sake of fast testing without detailed thought.

Squeezing both in will be tricky. I won't play without Hydroblasts in some quantity as a personal preference. And I won't play without at least a single copy of Twincast and a single copy of Echoing Truth somewhere in the 75. Twincast is too insanely versatile to cut entirely, and Echoing Truth gets better and better the more people that play Empty the Nutsack in decks like Belcher and Epic Storm.

Right now, it's:
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Twincast
4 Quirion Dryad
2 Bound//Determined
2 Hydroblast

[Blaukreuz]

what would you board out for the Quirion Dryads ?

[Bahamuth]

My guess would be -4 Remand, -1 Meditate and -1 Turnaboutfor 4 Dryad and 2 Bound/Determined. I'm not sure tough, since there is a singe Twincast in the SB.

[Tacosnape]

what would you board out for the Quirion Dryads ?

It depends on the matchup. Keep in mind I don't claim what I'm currently boarding out is necessarily correct, just what I'm doing.

Against Threshold, Fish, or any sort of Aggro-Control deck with both Mages and Counterspells, I've been going:

-4 Remand
-3 Brain Freeze
(If you only run two Freezes, -2 Freeze, -1 ...Flash of Insight?)

+4 Quirion Dryad
+2 Bound // Determined
+1 Twincast

The reason for these choices is as follows:

Remand goes out because it sucks with Bound // Determined.
Brain Freeze goes out because my current plan is to dig for Dryad and kill that way. If I manage to go off anyway, it's not hard to Cunning Wish for a Freeze after 20 spells.

I'm admittedly not convinced of the wisdom of this plan, however. I'm trying to replace either one of the boardouts, simply because Remand can help stave off an assault while I'm digging for a Dryad.

[Blaukreuz]

I tested the dryad tech in a few games now.

+ 4 Quirion Dryad
- 2 Brain Freeze
- 2 Flash of Insight

I really like the idea.
When the opponent doesn't have any removal in his deck a 5+/5+ Dryad is fucking strong.

In my dryad-testgames i never killed with brain freeze postboard. Once i tried it, but fizzled to a shitty meditate.

[Bahamuth]

I'm not sure about this, but shouldn't you board out Meditates as well if you board in Dryads? Skipping turns and winning on attacking doesn't seem like tech to me.

[Hummingbird TG]

Meditates allow you to 'go off' the turn you intend to hit lethal, by chaining a ton of spells. This would let you hit from lethal out of nowhere...

[Tacosnape]

I'm not sure about this, but shouldn't you board out Meditates as well if you board in Dryads? Skipping turns and winning on attacking doesn't seem like tech to me.

You don't want to do this. You don't want to abandon your normal combo entirely. Otherwise you're forcing yourself to hit one of a mere four threats in your deck in order to win. And if you attempt this and your opponent outguesses you and keeps in creature removal, you just lost.

It's not hard to go off even with the Dryads in your deck messing things up if your opponent can't catch a Mage. But it does make your deck a little less reliable, especially in the face of countermagic. I suggest goldfishing around with it a bit. You'll have to retrain yourself not to count on Meditate alone to hit cards you need. I'm still practicing it and getting the hang of it myself.

[Bane of the Living]

Whats going on? They banned Flash not Reset..

Where there any Solidarity decks in the top 64 of GP?

[Lukas Preuss]

It would truly startle me if any number of Solidarity decks made T64 at the GP since the meta was as bad as it could be for this deck.

The Flash matchup was pretty bad since Flash decks were faster and ran more control elements, and the other part of the field, Fish, is a pretty bad matchup, as well.

All in all, the metagame at Columbus was the worst possible for Solidarity.


But with the banning of Flash, Solidarity became viable again. I have been testing the green splash that has been discussed a few posts above. Quirion Dryad is pretty nice, but is best against UGw Threshold in my opinion. UGr Threshold and UGW Fish, which are both more popular in Germany make the dryad a little weaker, though since UGr Thresh doesn't board out its removal and UGW Fish runs Mother of Runes to infinitely block a single Dryad. But I haven't done a whole lot of testing, yet. Drop of Honey seems better against UGW Fish since it clears the table and destroys Mages, Confidants, etc., I think I will try 3 copies in the SB at the next tournament.

[Blaukreuz]

you're right lukas, the dryad tech is not that good against Fish & NQG/r.
So in theory, what other matchups (besides NQG/w) does the Dryad improve?


Hm, Drop of Honey, i dont want to buy those crappy $20 cards :confused:

What other cards than Porphyry Nodes (=Drop of Honey in white) would white give to us?

[nightshade81]

What other cards than Porphyry Nodes (=Drop of Honey in white) would white give to us?

Most importantly Orim's Chant, which has been a long time splash card.

[Tacosnape]

you're right lukas, the dryad tech is not that good against Fish & NQG/r.
So in theory, what other matchups (besides NQG/w) does the Dryad improve?


First off, I wasn't ever intending to board Dryads in, and I don't, against UGR Threshold. This is because UGR Threshold is way easier for Solidarity to beat up on. Solidarity's archnemesis hate card is Meddling Mage. Period. It's got a bajillion ways to power its way through almost every other piece of hate imaginable. Meddling Mage is a nightmare. Dryad was intended to circumvent this.

As for UBW Fish, the builds I tested against only ran 2 Mother of Runes, and I never saw one hit play in all my testing somehow, except for an occasional game 1. I must admit this didn't exactly occur to me, but yes, Mother of Runes does block Dryad all day long. Ah well. I did say something akin to it being either genius or awful.

The main match it was meant to improve was UGW Threshold, as UGW Threshold differs greatly from UBW Fish in that UGW Threshold doesn't suck quite as badly and is played considerably more.

Countermagic is beatable with Solidarity's awesome pet tricks, as long as there's not an annoying shutdown permanent backing it up like the Mage. This indeed makes Drop of Honey appealing, should green have enough other guns to warrant the splash.

[Bahamuth]

I've seen Red Thresh play Counterbalance + Top often. If the thresh player gets these 2 down, how are we going to win? Oce they have a 1 and 2 mana cost card at the top of their library, they can counter practically anything....

[Tacosnape]

I've seen Red Thresh play Counterbalance + Top often. If the thresh player gets these 2 down, how are we going to win? Oce they have a 1 and 2 mana cost card at the top of their library, they can counter practically anything....

This is making Spell Snare seem like a better and better idea. Or Wipe Away.

[Lukas Preuss]

Or Krosan Grip, if we're still talking about a green splash.

If you manage to resolve a Bound/Determined, Counterbalance isn't as scary anymore, but they can shut this down with a cc2 card pretty easily.

[Tacosnape]

Or Krosan Grip, if we're still talking about a green splash.

If you manage to resolve a Bound/Determined, Counterbalance isn't as scary anymore, but they can shut this down with a cc2 card pretty easily.

I kind of had this same thought. Determined's counter-baiting isn't exactly stellar when they aren't actually spending anything to counter the spell.

[Bahamuth]

It's been some days since someone posted here. Has anyone had some succes with the red splash version? Is the red splash still any good?

[Cait_Sith]

I stick with the Mono Blue. I don't like Determined because it shuts off Remand tricks, but the ability to go off without any interference is nice. The green splash also gives Dryad tech; red gives better options against Thresh (which is becoming more popular than Goblins) and so might be a better choice now.

[Elfrago]

What about storm elemental? It could fit the Driad role, but using the red splash.

[Cait_Sith]

What about storm elemental? It could fit the Driad role, but using the red splash.

Not hardly. Dryad keeps getting pumped long after you drop it. Even then you can use spells like Reset to pump it. Storm Entity does not do this.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I stick with the Mono Blue. I don't like Determined because it shuts off Remand tricks, but the ability to go off without any interference is nice. The green splash also gives Dryad tech; red gives better options against Thresh (which is becoming more popular than Goblins) and so might be a better choice now.



I find that it is generally very easy to tell when your opponent is exhausted out of countermagic. In alot of cases, if High Tide gets the ok, then we are free to bend them over. Some decks with heavy islands I guess? will allow High Tide to resolve so they can capitalize off of the extra blue. But for the most part, after a key spell such as High Tide, or Meditate etc. resolves, then they are probably out of answers. (The occasional Stifle/Trickbind aren't included, but they generally are irrelevant if your opponent chooses to use them to combat the Brainfreezes at the end.) I am still standing firm for using the Mono U version of Solidarity, as I am not a fan of either splash. I also feel as though the Dryad plan is not that strong at all. Running permanents like Drop of Honey and Dryad just decrease the amount of good cards you can draw while going off. Meditating into a Drop or a Dryad would be the worst thing ever. I think this deck should stick to instants and lands, not creatures and enchantments. I run 1x Wipe Away in the SB, and I find that to be fine in terms of dealing with Meddling Mages and random other threats on the table. Although Solidarity is "dying", I still think the deck can make another push in the right direction. Keep up the discussion!!!

[ebbitten]

I like gearhearts red splash, a lot. A lot of decks take needless amounts of damage when playing against solidarity, figuring that well its not a damage winning deck, a kickered urza's rage may prove otherwise, also urzas rage>meddling mage.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I like gearhearts red splash, a lot. A lot of decks take needless amounts of damage when playing against solidarity, figuring that well its not a damage winning deck, a kickered urza's rage may prove otherwise, also urzas rage>meddling mage.

Urza's Rage is alone is a weak arguement to run the red splash.

[Citrus-God]

Urza's Rage is alone is a weak arguement to run the red splash.

The reason why Urza's Rage is in here is simple; if they play a Mage and Chant Sudden Shock, you still have Urza's Rage as a fallback.

[Tacosnape]

The reason why Urza's Rage is in here is simple; if they play a Mage and Chant Sudden Shock, you still have Urza's Rage as a fallback.

If they play a Mage and chant Sudden Shock, then Meddling Mage isn't a problem and you can proceed to combo off as normal.

[Citrus-God]

If they play a Mage and chant Sudden Shock, then Meddling Mage isn't a problem and you can proceed to combo off as normal.

Which is good. It keeps the fear of Urza's Rage around.

IMO, Blue is still the way to go. Echoing Truth is tons better than Sudden Shock or Urza's Rage.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Which is good. It keeps the fear of Urza's Rage around.

IMO, Blue is still the way to go. Echoing Truth is tons better than Sudden Shock or Urza's Rage.


QFT. Wipe Away also trumps Urza's Rage and Sudden Shock in my opinion. It is a safe way to bounce Meddling Mage, and you don't have to make yourself open to Wasteland.

[Bahamuth]

Playing mono blue, is boarding all 4 Brain Freezes in still the strategy to use? I know that was what people did before the red splash, but the red splash didn't board in any at all.

Also, what to do against fast storm-combo? I played some TES, and their Duress and Xantid Swarm sure suck.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Playing mono blue, is boarding all 4 Brain Freezes in still the strategy to use? I know that was what people did before the red splash, but the red splash didn't board in any at all.

Also, what to do against fast storm-combo? I played some TES, and their Duress and Xantid Swarm sure suck.


With the addition of 4x Spell Snare in the board, I only SB 1x Brainfreeze now. Against Thresh, I board in 1x Brainfreeze, 2x Twincast, 1x Echoing Truth, and 2x Spell Snare. I board out 4x Remand, 1x Turnabout, and 1x Meditate. I am aware the red splash doesn't board any Brainfreezes, and that's one of the reasons I am turned off by it.

Against fast storm combo, I mulligan to FOW if my seven card hand doesn't have at least a Remand on the play. If I mull to 6 and there is still no FOW but the hand is keepable, then I roll with it. If you can get Remand mana up before they crush you, then you are golden. I believe that Herbig has 2x Echoing Truth and 1x Mystical Tutor in the SB. This allows to Mystical Tutor for an E. Truth when you are staring down ETW tokens. Generally, Solidarity is favored against other Storm Combo decks, but you need to know how to mulligan correctly. I have only lost to TES once in tournament (Bryant). I am like 5-1 against it or something. With Bryant's new list packing blasts in the SB, things might play out a little different.

[Tacosnape]

With the addition of 4x Spell Snare in the board, I only SB 1x Brainfreeze now. Against Thresh, I board in 1x Brainfreeze, 2x Twincast, 1x Echoing Truth, and 2x Spell Snare. I board out 4x Remand, 1x Turnabout, and 1x Meditate. I am aware the red splash doesn't board any Brainfreezes, and that's one of the reasons I am turned off by it.


What do you board in the full set of Spell Snares against if not Threshold?

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

What do you board in the full set of Spell Snares against if not Threshold?


Any Black X deck, and fast Storm Combo. Snaring their random Desperate Ritual, Burning Wish, Cabal Ritual etc. can really mess them up. I know Black x decks make up a very small percent of every large tournament, but if you happen to get paired up against one, it is VERY bad times. Also, I feel as though the Spell Snares are better than the 4th Twincast, the 2nd Brainfreeze, and the third Hydroblast.

[Tacosnape]

Any Black X deck, and fast Storm Combo. Snaring their random Desperate Ritual, Burning Wish, Cabal Ritual etc. can really mess them up. I know Black x decks make up a very small percent of every large tournament, but if you happen to get paired up against one, it is VERY bad times. Also, I feel as though the Spell Snares are better than the 4th Twincast, the 2nd Brainfreeze, and the third Hydroblast.

Makes sense. Right now I'm running two Snares in board and was curious.

[Bahamuth]

Now i realise there might be a great difference with the deck running 3 Think Twice mainboard, but is it a good idea to board out the Think Twices (instead of Remands (?)) for Spell Snares when playing against fast combo? I'd think Remand does offer some disruption, while Think Twice won't even be played before your opponent tries to go off.

The problem often isn't disrupting their combo, but getting trough the hate, which in TES's case are Xantid Swarm (which absolutely f*cks things up) and Duress. Once I manage to keep those off the board, I can usually win. It's sort of stupid tough to use your FoW on a 0/1 creature....

Black discard is (unfortunately) quite huge in my meta. Decks like B/W Confidant and Pox are played quite a lot. I guess I'll start playing those 4 Spell Snare too.

Also, playing 4 Spell Snare sideboard, How much room do you still have left for Hydroblasts? What's your board plan vs. Gobs?

[Tacosnape]

I think the format's speeding up to the point where Think Twice is crap.

Only running 2 Spell Snares was exactly for the reason of keeping Hydroblasts in my board, for my case. I hate facing Goblins without the blasts.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Now i realise there might be a great difference with the deck running 3 Think Twice mainboard, but is it a good idea to board out the Think Twices (instead of Remands (?)) for Spell Snares when playing against fast combo? I'd think Remand does offer some disruption, while Think Twice won't even be played before your opponent tries to go off.

The problem often isn't disrupting their combo, but getting trough the hate, which in TES's case are Xantid Swarm (which absolutely f*cks things up) and Duress. Once I manage to keep those off the board, I can usually win. It's sort of stupid tough to use your FoW on a 0/1 creature....

Black discard is (unfortunately) quite huge in my meta. Decks like B/W Confidant and Pox are played quite a lot. I guess I'll start playing those 4 Spell Snare too.

Also, playing 4 Spell Snare sideboard, How much room do you still have left for Hydroblasts? What's your board plan vs. Gobs?




Personally, I think Think Twice is insanely slow. So yes, I guess if you insist on running Think Twice then you would def. board them out instead of Remands. Simply because you will probably never get to flash back Think Twice before they kill you. Also, as I said earlier, if you can get Remand mana up, then it's usually tough for them to go off.

Against TES. It is not "Stupid" at all to FOW Xantid Swarm. If that little shit resolves, then it is almost always GG, unless their hand is so god awful they can't go off before you can. If they cast Xantid Swarm later in the game, (after turns 1-2) then it is much weaker.

My SB right now is

1x Stroke of Genius
1x Brainfreeze
2x Hydroblast
1x Chain of Vapor
1x E. Truth
1x Wipe Away ( Normally Rebuild, but my meta-game is 0 Stax)
1x Turnabout
1x Meditate
2x Twincast
4x Spell Snare


I still have room for the 2x Hydroblast. Anymore than 2x Blast seems like a poor decision to me. With all of the Goblin decks packing Chalice of the Void instead of Red Blasts, Hydroblast becomes much weaker. If they lay down Chalice for 1, then it sucks to be sitting there with a hand full of 3 Hydroblast.

[Bahamuth]

Well as i said in my post above, black discard is quite popular around here (the Netherlands), so I'm not sure if it would be good to cut the Think Twices again. There also aren't that many fast combo or any really fast decktypes around here, including not much Goblins either.

If I cut the Think Twices, do you suggest going back to 2 Peek + 1 Twincast?

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Well as i said in my post above, black discard is quite popular around here (the Netherlands), so I'm not sure if it would be good to cut the Think Twices again. There also aren't that many fast combo or any really fast decktypes around here, including not much Goblins either.

If I cut the Think Twices, do you suggest going back to 2 Peek + 1 Twincast?


Yes. But if your post holds true, then I guess you can keep the Think Twices in. Peek doesn't do much good against Black x Decks.

[lavafrogg]

I have been testing a control orieted build that runs 3x disrupts and 4x mystical tutors main I also upped the think twices to four and lowered cunning wishes to two. I have been considering cutting the wishes and upping the brain freeze count to four.
With everyone preparing for the faster combo decks Solidarity can disrupt turn one remand turn two and force anytime to slow down combo decks to solidarity speed. With the TT the deck can still draw over thresh and BW and with MT against aggro it can tutor up combo pieces to win faster.
Read the runes would also be a nice addition along with one more flash of insight. Well might as well type a list up..how about:

3 Bain Freeze

3 Mystical Tutors
2 Cunning wish

3 High Tides
4 Resets
3 Turnabouts

3 Meditates
4 Think Twice
4 Brainstom
4 Impulse
2 Flash of Insight

3 Disrupts
4 Remands
4 Force of Will

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

12 Islands

Board:

1 Turnabout
1 High tide
1 stroke
1 meditate
Stifle x3
Chain of Vapor x2
Truth x1
Dirsupt x1
Twincast x3
Brainfreeze x1

Well thats not bad it should be able to hold off combo then tutor up and hain into several brainfreezes...in theory

[Van Phanel]

The reasons, why Mystical Tutor sucks have been covered in this thread quite some times, but to give you the two main ones:

a) It produces card disadvantage.
b) Predict exists

What exactly would you mean with "control-oriented"? The addition of a situational counter that often - cough*goblins*cough - will be outright useless, surely does not improve the deck. I, personally, would not even board Disrupt against combo if I had them in the board, because the combo-player often shruggs the one mana off/ plays Xantid Swarm /Defense Grid first. I think when you play your list, you will have issues with one-/two-land hands more often than with the standard build, because you are lacking Opts. And relying on a Brainstorm to draw into another land, is something I wouldn't advocate.

Just my 2 cents

[lavafrogg]

You mystical they predict you think twice...whats the problem. So i guess we need more land. I will playtest when my friend gets home from work. In theory the mysticals would alow you to find your combo pieces faster against goblins while helping your bad matchups(combo, thresh, BW)

We need 3-4 land as a must. Once we get to two we have impulse, think twice and remand to find the third and the fourth land is optional.

Im experimenting here...every combo deck in history has used tutors to find spells that need to resolve. Flash used mystical, IGGy uses mystical, just because one card that is only ran in one(maybe) deck does not mean it cannot be played. The decktype is stagnant I am trying to tweak the deck to work in this metagame.

[nightshade81]

I think your worst argument is cutting a Cunning Wish and having a High Tide in the board. Those two really don't work together.

[noobslayer]

The issue is the format is faster than it used to be, and your changes are making the deck slower. In essence, you're really only tuning the deck to its own demise.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I think your worst argument is cutting a Cunning Wish and having a High Tide in the board. Those two really don't work together.

Yeah. Lava Frogg, your list is pretty awful. Cutting Cunning Wish and a High Tide seems VERY awful. Also, you have no answers to Goblins in your SB, which is coincidentally one of the strongest decks in the format after Flash getting banned. Also, Think Twice is insanely slow, as we have all discussed in previous posts. Not to mention, you should not be running 4x of them. Two, maybe three at most would be better. Also, a third MD Brainfreeze is not necessary. It usually sucks to draw Brainfreeze in your opening hand, or early game. It's something you fish for at the end of going off, or you just Wish for it. I would go on, but I feel as though I have made my point.

[nightshade81]

Although I do think Mystical Tutors -> E Truth might be something this deck has to adapt to if ETW combo becomes tier one.

But nothing like lavafrogs list. BTW another thing I wanted to pick at is Flash of Insight is almost strictly better then Think Twice, and in my personal opinion it is. I would run the Flash of Insight count to 4 before I added one Think Twice.

[Bahamuth]

Of course Flash of Insight isn't 'strictly' better than Think Twice. You really don't want to have more than 1 (maybe 2) in your graveyard. They become really useless in multiples, also because it costs you 3 mana not to get carddisadvantage when putting them in your graveyard.

[Tacosnape]

Of course Flash of Insight isn't 'strictly' better than Think Twice. You really don't want to have more than 1 (maybe 2) in your graveyard. They become really useless in multiples, also because it costs you 3 mana not to get carddisadvantage when putting them in your graveyard.

They aren't useless if you flash them back for 1 every time. Then, it's just like a Think Twice that costs you a single card in your graveyard, only with the costs reversed.

Think Twice draws the first card for :1::u:, and the second for :2::u:.

Flash of Insight, if you pay it at one every time, essentially draws the first card for :2::u: and the second one for :1::u: and a single blue card being sent to the removed from game zone, which isn't necessarily bad.

Manawise, that leaves both Think Twice and Flash of Insight costing :3::u::u: for two cards. Therefore when comparing the slot to Think Twice and mentally envisioning playing Flash of Insight as such, it's not necessarily ludicrous to envision 4 Flash of Insights in a deck.

The obvious advantage of Think Twice is curving it out on turns two and three, whereas Flash of Insight can't do it until turns three and four. The obvious advantage of Flash of Insight, however, is that you shouldn't ever have to flash it back for just one. It's ludicrously more powerful and has the option of digging for the card it needs, as deep as you feel comfortable digging, especially lategame.

Flash of Insight gets the slot in the deck because it turns Brain Freeze into a bizarre draw spell and can stack your freaking deck. Think Twice shouldn't, because, well, it sucks. In the end, however, they're both as slow as the retarded kid in your 6th grade history class.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I think it is safe to say we all agree that Think Twice is too slow for this current meta?? Back when Gearhart suggested the card, I still didn't like it, but the format was not nearly as fast as it is now. With all of these ETW fast Storm decks crawling around, I wouldn't run Think Twice if you paid me. Well, it depends how much you pay me.

[lavafrogg]

My list may be bad ill try to give some card explanations:

Mystical Tutor: Helps find specific combo pieces when you need them. Also has the advantage of finding post boad diamonds that you bought in.

Think Twice: Gives you more card advantage in the deck to offset mystial tutors. Alllows you to fight throgh threshs counterspells and recover from discard.

Disrupt: Pros:good against discard, threshold, faster combo (hey arent those the bad matchups right now)
Bad: goblins(it happens)

Brainfreeze: Im trying to make the deck aim for double freeze earlier in the game instead of one large brainfreeze. This speeds the deck up in that you can go off in response to them playing 2 spells and you can go off on your turn easier.

[Bahamuth]

I think we can, and, altough I'm not sure if it's the same for my meta, I think I will drop them too and go back to 2 opt/peek 1 Twincast.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

My list may be bad ill try to give some card explanations:

Mystical Tutor: Helps find specific combo pieces when you need them. Also has the advantage of finding post boad diamonds that you bought in.

Think Twice: Gives you more card advantage in the deck to offset mystial tutors. Alllows you to fight throgh threshs counterspells and recover from discard.

Disrupt: Pros:good against discard, threshold, faster combo (hey arent those the bad matchups right now)
Bad: goblins(it happens)

Brainfreeze: Im trying to make the deck aim for double freeze earlier in the game instead of one large brainfreeze. This speeds the deck up in that you can go off in response to them playing 2 spells and you can go off on your turn easier.



You say Mystical Tutor is in there to find combo pieces, yet you cut a Cunning Wish and moved a High Tide into the board??? Also, You are much more likely to play against Goblins than you are Discard or faster Storm Combo at this point. Disrupt should not be MD at all. Also, Faster combo isn't a horrible matchup for Solidarity. I find myself usually beating other combo decks, i.e. TES, Iggy Pop, and CRET Belcher.


Also, if you are concerned about going off that much earlier, just play Spring Tide. You are trying to bend a good Solidarity list into something completely in the opposite direction.

[Muradin]

I also can't understand the reasons why you are all so worried about the faster combo decks(mostly TES and Belcher). I played several games against those decks and in general I won more games than I lost. Epic storms most problematic card against solidarity is Xantid swarm as it simply makes your disruption useless. The warrens were absolutely not the problem for me. If they're on the play and go turn 1 8 tokens this already should give you very good chances to race them. Most games I lost were something like them playing first turn Xantid Swarm on the play and killing me turn 2. Furthermore they lose many games to remand/Force.
So in general I think that if they're on the play the matchup is about equal.
If you're on the play then the matchup is favorable for Solidarity.

[Tacosnape]

The warrens were absolutely not the problem for me. If they're on the play and go turn 1 8 tokens this already should give you very good chances to race them.

Uh, if they drop 8 ETW Tokens on turn one, You have to combo off and kill them with three land in order to outrace them.

Their turn one: 8 ETW Tokens.
Your turn one: Island, whatever cantrips you play eot.
Their turn two: Swing for 8 (You're at 12)
Your turn two: Island, whatever cantrips you play eot.
Their turn three: Swing for 8 (You're at 4)
Your turn three: Island, whatever cantrips you play eot.
Their turn four: Swing for Lethal. Good luck.

Without a perfect hand, your best bet is going to be either High Tide / Reset / Cunning Wish / Echoing Truth, or Reset / Reset / Cunning Wish / Echoing Truth.

[Bahamuth]

Playing 4 Spell Snare, what is the correct sideboard plan against Pikula/Red Death/any deck with black? I figured it's not a good idea to board out the Remand, since I often needed them to use on Brain Freeze.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Playing 4 Spell Snare, what is the correct sideboard plan against Pikula/Red Death/any deck with black? I figured it's not a good idea to board out the Remand, since I often needed them to use on Brain Freeze.



I board out 1x Turnabout, 2x Peek, and 1x Brainfreeze to haul in 4x Spell Snare. Also, casting a Meditate pre-combo can really help you recover from all of their hand destruction, so usually I will board the Meditate in and cut the random 1x Twincast MD.

[Elfrago]

Today I used Solidarity in a small tournament. The deck worked nicely and brought me to the top8. Still, a had a little disappointment with one card: Cunning Wish.

Seriusly, that card is too slow! Having to pay 3 and the cost of the card you need is usually too much.

The card is still nice when comboing out, but I find it slow in fighting aganist meddling mage and his buddies and I usually get rid of it using Branistorm + fetchland in the first turns...

We only need it in 3 copies to fight some certain tough matchups and, despite my metagame filled with hard matchups for the deck, I still find the third copy too slow.

I thought that maybe we should cut 1 of them and move it to the SB for those bad matchups.
I'll test this change at a next tournment and I'll let you know the results.
In the meanwhile I'd like to ear your thoughts about it.

[noobslayer]

Cunning Wish can be one of the less useful pieces at times. We run three so if we need it, we get it, but otherwise we don't run into it often. I don't know what you could replace its versatility and raw win power with. It may be bad in situation, even too slow, but it wins you games by handing you an answer when you need it most.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

The card is still nice when comboing out, but I find it slow in fighting aganist meddling mage and his buddies and I usually get rid of it using Branistorm + fetchland in the first turns...




How is it too slow to combat Meddling Mage and his buddies when Meddling Mage costs 2 and Cunning Wish costs just one more mana? I really doubt they are going to have lethal damage on the table after they cast a turn 2 Meddling Mage.


I do see your point somewhat however. I HATE having double Cunning Wish in my opening hand. I would hate to cut the card though, because when it shines, it really shines.

[ReAnimated]

@ElFrago
I'm not a big Solidarity expert, but why would you move the wish you cut to the board? :confused:

[Elfrago]

How is it too slow to combat Meddling Mage and his buddies when Meddling Mage costs 2 and Cunning Wish costs just one more mana? I really doubt they are going to have lethal damage on the table after they cast a turn 2 Meddling Mage.


But we usually have to cast Cunning wish (hopefully with remand or FOW backup), cast the card we get (wich is usually Wipe Away) and then combo-out when they replay the Mage/Chalice/Rule during their turn... this is quite mana-expensive and slow.


@ElFrago
I'm not a big Solidarity expert, but why would you move the wish you cut to the board? :confused:

Usually we use it for two reasons: get meditate or turnabout from the SB while comboing out (which is a little mana-hungry but is fine) or to get an answer for Meddling Mage, Chalice of The Void, Rule of Law and the like... decks with those cards usually packs FOW and other counters.

When one of these cards hits the ground we want to have Cunning Wish in 3 copies becouse the first one could get countered! But, except for Meddling Mages, those cards are not played in the maindeck.

By moving the Wish to the board we still have three of them to bounce their hate after sideboarding AND we get rid of a slow cards in those matchups were we really dont need it that much.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

But we usually have to cast Cunning wish (hopefully with remand or FOW backup), cast the card we get (wich is usually Wipe Away) and then combo-out when they replay the Mage/Chalice/Rule during their turn... this is quite mana-expensive and slow.



If there was a Cunning Wish out there that cost 1U then trust me, I would be running it too, but there isn't, so we have to make the best of what is available to us. Most players I know don't even run Wipe Away in the board, so it won't be uncommon for the Thresh player to allow Cunning Wish to resolve thinking that they can just counter the spell that you get with Wish.

Also, obv. we have to combo out when they go to re-play Mage/Chalice/Rule during their turn. We wouldn't bounce the Mage if we didn't think we could go off the next turn, lol. That would be just plain stupid unless the Meddling Mage was lethal next turn. I don't find Cunning Wish annoying at all, unless it's in multiples like I said before. That's why we run 3.

[Elfrago]

I agree with you Shady.
Still I'll test 2 Wishes + 1 in the SB... too bad I cant test it for a cuple weeks :(

[Cait_Sith]

I agree with you Shady.
Still I'll test 2 Wishes + 1 in the SB... too bad I cant test it for a cuple weeks :(

Problem is then you you are much less likely to see it. If you are forced to cast Stroke of Genius on yourself you NEED to find a Wish in order to make sure your opponent is extra crispy dead.

[Bahamuth]

I too played Solidarity at a local tournament. There were 32 people attending. I went 3-1-1, and got into the top 8, my first ever. :smile:

In the top 8 I had to play against the deck I hoped for, 43 lands. And I lost... 0-2....

In the first game I drew a hand with 3 Tide, 1 Reset, 2 Brainstorm and 1 Island.
Obviously I didn't draw any land with the 2 Brainstorm, and actually found a thirth. At the turn my opponent could kill me, I had 3 land and attempted to go off, but screwed up. Out of draw spells, I Brain Froze (that's English right?) myself and forgot that I had to float 2 extra mana to flashback an Flash of Insight.

The second game my opponend played a turn 2 Chalice on 1, and a turn 3/4 (not sure) Chalice on 3. I didn't have an answer to any of them, so I lost.

Spell Snare worked out really good for me, and I will definately keep playing them.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I'm looking to pick this deck up and I have some questions;

What is the better splash, red, green, or none at all?
What should a proper sideboard be?
What turn should I be aiming for?
What are the good and bad match-ups?
Six or eight fetchlands?
What is the best cantrip layout?
Are there any other tips or tricks, like the Remand/Brain Freeze trick, that I should know about?

I'm sure these are all valid questions, it's a complicated deck.

[Lukas Preuss]

What is the better splash, red, green, or none at all?

The most solide build is the mono colored one, but the splashes have advantages, as well. Against an aggro-control metagame, red gives Sudden Shock to remove Meddling Mage, green and white give Drop of Honey, Porphyry Nodes, Quirion Dryad and/or Orim's Chant. It depends largely on the metagame, but I would start with the mono colored build since it is the one that is most tested.


What should a proper sideboard be?

This depends on the splash, but a typical mono colored SB would look something like:

4 Hydroblast
1 Stroke
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Brainfreeze
1 Twincast
1 Chain of Vapors
1 Echoing Truth
4 Metagame slots (Disrupt, Spell Snare, etc.)


What turn should I be aiming for?

This deck goldfishes on turn 4 normally, but you should try the following as well, when practicing with the deck:
Turn 3 goldfish
Turn 4 with one opponent Counterspell (normally on High Tide)
Turn 5 with one opponent Counterspell
Turn 5 with two opponent Counterspells
Turn 6 with two opponent Counterspells
Turn 6 with Meddling Mage on the board (combo without High Tide).
etc.

These vary in difficulty, but they should give you a good understanding on how the deck works.


What are the good and bad match-ups?

Good:
- Anything slower than turn 4 without relevant disruption (Survival, Wombat, Zoo, etc.)
- Slow Control with Disruption (MUC, Landstill)
- Other Combo (Spring Tide, etc.)

Mediocre:
- Very fast combo (TES, Belcher... although I haven't tested the matchup since both became popular)
- Goblins (sometimes too fast for you, depends also on the amount of hate they play)
- UBW Fish (slow, but has tons of hate MD like Mage, etc.)

Bad:
- Threshold (Fast, backed up by lots of relevant disruption like Daze, FoW and Mage)
- Deadguy Ale (Hand and land destruction)
- Red Death (see above)


Six or eight fetchlands?

Six is the proven number and is generally agreed upon. It's no big difference actually if Stifle isn't played in your metagame.


What is the best cantrip layout?

It's either 2 Peek / 2 Opt or 4 Opt... depends on what you like best.


Are there any other tips or tricks, like the Remand/Brain Freeze trick, that I should know about?

Brainfreezing yourself to hit Flash of Insight comes to mind, but this isn't a standard play, it's basically only used when you're stuck with no draw spell but one Brain Freeze. Flash of Insight is one of the best cards, by the way since it lets you stack your library.

[noobslayer]

I'm looking to pick this deck up and I have some questions;

What is the better splash, red, green, or none at all?
What should a proper sideboard be?
What turn should I be aiming for?
What are the good and bad match-ups?
Six or eight fetchlands?
What is the best cantrip layout?
Are there any other tips or tricks, like the Remand/Brain Freeze trick, that I should know about?

I'm sure these are all valid questions, it's a complicated deck.

1. No splash seems best right now. I'm not even sure the other splashes have much to really offer at this time, and even add the issue of mana stability against decks packing wasteland.

2. This is mine:
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Stroke of Genius
2 Brainfreeze
3 Twincast
3 Stifle

3. Any turn 4-6 is a standard game. In the control match-up, go whenever your holding the nuts. In fact, you can mini combo to try and pull any counter magic and such out of their hand so you can go off completely free for the larger combo. Most of the time this isn't necessary, as even if they are packing counter magic, you tend to roll them as long as they have no real clock available.

4. Good match-ups include virtually all control decks, you go about even with goblins (this one is mostly Dependant if you have force for their lackey), most slow discard decks I feel don't pose much of a threat, and a wide array of random decks.

Bad match-ups include the threshold archtype decks, and deadguy has been known to be an issue. Faster combo has also become more of a relevant issue, hence why I pack 3 stifle in my board, and if it become more of an issue, I'll cut the 4th brainfreeze for the 4th stifle.

5. Six. Gearhart had even mentioned to me about potentially going down to five or four.

6. The deck is pretty much standard, with the main contention being 4 opt or 2 opt/2 peek.

7. The deck is one big synergistic engine. The best thing I can suggest, is whenever you play, stop, and think about all the possible interactions. Also, I've taken to writing out my deck order in short hand when I use Flash, so I can appropriately mill myself if need be with another brainfreeze (or use the remaining copies on the stack).

[Lukas Preuss]

Faster combo has also become more of a relevant issue, hence why I pack 3 stifle in my board, and if it become more of an issue, I'll cut the 4th brainfreeze for the 4th stifle.

I was wondering about this lately since I picked the deck up again. Stifle would be a great card against combo, but do you bring it in against Goblins as well (you're not running the blue blasts, so did this weaken your Goblin matchup?)? Does it work to slow the Goblin player down?

[Tacosnape]

I don't entirely agree with Deadguy Ale and Red Death being all that bad for Solidarity. Either can be nasty if Hypnotic Specter gets going, but as Hypnotic Specter's losing popularity in both decks due to Solidarity's decline and Fast Combo's rise, things aren't altogether as hellish as they used to be.

Brainstorm can fend off Duress and Therapy to a degree, and a resolved Meditate will often give you the gas you need to win.

I'm not saying either one's a great match, but I'd consider putting them in mediocre or possibly their own category. They're a fair bit worse for you than say, Goblins, but significantly better than UGW Threshold.

Also, Red Death's a fair bit worse than Deadguy Ale for the most part, though this can depend on Deadguy's board.

I'm testing the white splash at the moment personally (For Orim's Chant and Swords to Plowshares) Chant's been upping my odds against fast combo and heavy counterspell decks considerably, and Swords gets rid of Mage and other problematic guys like Confidant (Not Lackey, though. Tundras are bad against Goblins.)

[C.P.]

I don't entirely agree with Deadguy Ale and Red Death being all that bad for Solidarity. Either can be nasty if Hypnotic Specter gets going, but as Hypnotic Specter's losing popularity in both decks due to Solidarity's decline and Fast Combo's rise, things aren't altogether as hellish as they used to be.

Brainstorm can fend off Duress and Therapy to a degree, and a resolved Meditate will often give you the gas you need to win.

I'm not saying either one's a great match, but I'd consider putting them in mediocre or possibly their own category. They're a fair bit worse for you than say, Goblins, but significantly better than UGW Threshold.

Also, Red Death's a fair bit worse than Deadguy Ale for the most part, though this can depend on Deadguy's board.

I'm testing the white splash at the moment personally (For Orim's Chant and Swords to Plowshares) Chant's been upping my odds against fast combo and heavy counterspell decks considerably, and Swords gets rid of Mage and other problematic guys like Confidant (Not Lackey, though. Tundras are bad against Goblins.)

My version of BW runs Negator instead of Specter, and it has been pretty good for me. Brainstorm does dodge pinpoint discard, but hymn attacking card quantity and Sinkhole vindicate for keeping you off the mana that you need is pretty solid against the deck. I have not lost this match yet. Unless you use neat tricks like Divert or Disrupt, I cannot see how Solidarity can beat B/x disruption deck in the hand of competent player.

[Lukas Preuss]

I'm testing the white splash at the moment personally (For Orim's Chant and Swords to Plowshares) Chant's been upping my odds against fast combo and heavy counterspell decks considerably, and Swords gets rid of Mage and other problematic guys like Confidant (Not Lackey, though. Tundras are bad against Goblins.)

The problem with those two cards is against UGW Thresh and UBW Fish, were you need to play against counterspells as well as Mage. Do you have enough cards to take out? Or do you just side one of the two in (which would make one of the cards obsolete, I guess, since eventhough Chant is nice against combo it would limit it to the combo matchup only where it is just as good as Stifle).

Also, StP doesn't buy you a lot of time, since it only removes mage but doesn't slow them down. Have you tested Porphyry Nodes? They should slow UGW Thresh down so that you have a far better chance to combo off (giving you a much greater stack and mana advantage so that you don't need Chant to protect yourself). I think in addition to Orim's Chant, Porphyry Nodes should be tried, as well.

I did some testing with it, but I don't think I got the timing right all the time, because sometimes dropping one was just too late. :(

But what do you think?



Also, one thing I found really disheartening was that a lot of Threshold and Fish decks here in Germany start to maindeck the Counterbalance engine lately. I haven't really found a way to deal with this yet, and it is really annoying and has cost me numerous games in testing. Any ideas how to deal with it? Wipe Away or Repeal come to mind, but you could only use those to bounce it before comboing, making your search spells before that really vulnerable. I thought about Krosan Grip in the sideboard (the green splash) in addition to Drop of Honey.

[Tacosnape]

The obvious solution to Counterbalance engine maindeck that comes to mind is "Run Goblins instead and make them suffer." However, most Counterbalance decks I've played against can't always get CMC 3 spells to land on top, making Cunning Wish / Wipe Away a decent idea, along with any 3CC removal spell like Krosan Grip or Dismantling Blow. Determined loses ground as you won't get it to stick against Counterbalance.

The thing I don't like about Porphyry Nodes is that it's no help Game 1. Swords can be snagged with Cunning Wish in tons of matchups to randomly save your ass. This includes being able to grab it as an answer to Meddling Mage (Although on occasion Wipe Away's the better grab here, depending on circumstances.)

Spell Snare seems nicer and nicer against Fish if they're running Counterbalance and Mage both, also.

[jazzykat]

Just an organizational thought if someone where inclined. This thread is over 1000 posts long. If someone who knew how to play this deck was inclined, would the mods let them start a new thread, that had pertinent summary information so we can have a more manageable thread? In that way maybe the same question won't be asked 20 times (or at least you would be a lot more justified for shooting someone that did not search the new thread).

Thanks,
JK

[Weekend Daddy]

Has anyone tried using Misdirection in Solidarity. Would you be able to target an opponent's FoW and direct it to Misdirection?

[Blaukreuz]

Would you be able to target an opponent's FoW and direct it to Misdirection?

yes, the new target for the misdirected spell is chosen on resolution (of the misdirection) when misdirection is still on the stack. So you can choose misdirection.

However, i dont think misdirection is needed in Solidarity. You already got enough stackcontrol and in lots of matchups the misdirection is shit.
Some people play 1x misdirection in the wishboard i think.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Yes one Misdirection is good in the wishboeard, maby a second one for the MD so you could ever tutor it up. Misdirection is good against discard and poor against counter...

[Blaukreuz]

honestly, in a normal meta, i would not waste any slots for misdirection. :smile:

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

honestly, in a normal meta, i would not waste any slots for misdirection. :smile:



QFT. Misdirection is not needed in the SB at all. Even if I were to want one, I couldn't see myself cutting anything in my board to even make room for a 1x Misdirection. It just flat out isn't that good.

[TheGoblinGeneral4]

Hey guys, im attempting to build my first solidarity deck. Should i start with the mono-blue version? I mostly use Iggy-Pop and Goblins in legacy but i want my 3rd legacy deck to be Solidarity, it looks interesting and i have most of the cards to make it, (except for reset) so i decided to build one. I was just wondering which versions seem to be the pro's choices? any suggestions?

[DrJones]

I have not played with this deck (only against), but I think the best builds run Twincast.

[Lego]

Hey guys, im attempting to build my first solidarity deck. Should i start with the mono-blue version? I mostly use Iggy-Pop and Goblins in legacy but i want my 3rd legacy deck to be Solidarity, it looks interesting and i have most of the cards to make it, (except for reset) so i decided to build one. I was just wondering which versions seem to be the pro's choices? any suggestions?

Right now, the way the meta is shaping up, Solidarity isn't the best choice. If you're going to play it, despite that, the mono-blue build is probably best. Check out Gearhart's last MonoU list for a reference.

[TheGoblinGeneral4]

Im really just making it for fun, I dont plan on going to GenCon or anything, but i do want to make a legacy legal version for local tourneys. (We normally get it sanctioned and play for a box or sometheing) I prolly wouldnt use solidarity in a big tourney, just out of boredom and curiosity i want to make it.

[mikejetd0rk]

I just finished up my build:
Instants
4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
2 Opt
2 Brain Freeze
4 Impulse
4 Remand
4 Reset
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
2 Flash of Insight
3 Think Twice
Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
10 Island
Sideboard
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Starstorm
1 Urza's Rage
1 Brain Freeze
3 Hydroblast
2 Twincast
1 Sudden Shock

Well, technically I'm not finished. I am missing 4 Resets and 1 Meditate. Other than that everything else is there.

Thoughts?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I think we should play one rebuild MD!

Yes it is a dead card sometimes, but it is countles that i wished for rebuild to bounce some scary artefacts...
yes we have Cunning wish for these problems, but we also have merchent scroll...

I think one rebuild is wroth the slot!

[Blaukreuz]

wtf, we don't have merchant scroll. It's a sorcery and never played in serious Solidarity builds.

Furthermore, I usually would not play any maindeck bounce (btw, why Rebuild and not Echoing Truth or Wipe Away, which can get rid of Meddling Mage and enchantments too? Do you live in a Stax-only Meta?)


@mikejetd0rk: your build looks like the standard red solidarity, nothing to complain.

[Van Phanel]

@HdH_Cthulhu: If you're talking about Merchant Scroll you probably mean Spring Tide. Then you are in the wrong thread here.

@mike jetd0rk: Your build looks pretty solid. I'd just add maybe a Wipe Away somewhere in this, because you basically can't win through Counterbalance + Top without it. By now I even run 2 Wipe Away side to board them in, but that's a metagame choice with Counterbalances running rampant here in Germany.

[Blaukreuz]

yeah, Wipe Away is really strong. In most metas i would always play at least one in the sideboard.

[mikejetd0rk]

What do I drop in the side for the Wipe Away?

[Mijorre]

I would go 1 Twincast to main over 1 Think Twice. Wipe Away slot acquired.
As long as you have a draw spell in hand, Twincast isn't a dead draw ^_^.

[TheGoblinGeneral4]

Ok, my last reset came in and i finally made time to make Solidarity, i didnt have much time to playtest then i used in a small last-minute tourney, i went 1-2,(including the bye lol) and my loses were to faerie stompy and shaharazad/burn variant.... for some reason i had very bad luck against the stompy deck, and i made a misplay against the burn deck which caused me to fizzle out and lose game 3... I think i did alright for this being the first time ever using the deck tho... this is a fun deck too, makes you think(although not as pain in the ass as iggy pop lol)... anyways my deck list: flash

// lands

4 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
10 island

//spells

4 FoW
3 remand
3 cunning wish
3 meditate
2 twincast
2 flash of insight
1 peek
4 opt
4 high tide
4 reset
4 brainstorm
3 turnabout
2 brainfreeze
4 impulse

//SB

4 ReB
2 Hydroblast
1 stroke of genius
1 rebuild
1 brainfreeze
1 turnabout
2 words of wisdom
1 chain of vapor
1 twincast
1 meditate

and yes i threw my SB together at the last minute, and forgot wipe away and/or echoing truth (which echoing truth woulda won me game 1 against stompy.... <cough> chalice set to 1 <cough>)

[TheGoblinGeneral4]

Ok, my last reset came in and i finally made time to make Solidarity, i didnt have much time to playtest then i used in a small last-minute tourney, i went 1-2,(including the bye lol) and my loses were to faerie stompy and shaharazad/burn variant.... for some reason i had very bad luck against the stompy deck, and i made a misplay against the burn deck which caused me to fizzle out and lose game 3... I think i did alright for this being the first time ever using the deck tho... this is a fun deck too, makes you think(although not as pain in the ass as iggy pop lol)... anyways my deck list: flash

// lands

4 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
10 island

//spells

4 FoW
3 remand
3 cunning wish
3 meditate
2 twincast
2 flash of insight
1 peek
4 opt
4 high tide
4 reset
4 brainstorm
3 turnabout
2 brainfreeze
4 impulse

//SB

4 ReB
2 Hydroblast
1 stroke of genius
1 rebuild
1 brainfreeze
1 turnabout
2 words of wisdom
1 chain of vapor
1 twincast
1 meditate

and yes i threw my SB together at the last minute, and forgot wipe away and/or echoing truth (which echoing truth woulda won me game 1 against stompy.... <cough> chalice set to 1 <cough>)

[solidarity!]

You did well since your missing some cards and the list isn't balanced it is more random(i do not mean it bad).

So this is your first time playing it,how did it feel to play solidarity for you?

You know how most solidarity builds look like?

[TheGoblinGeneral4]

hmmm, im not really sure how solidarity is made these days, i just went with my own mono-blue version... any suggestions?

Oh, and it was really fun, especially when you surprise a legacy noob when you beat them on their own turn lol...

[Bahamuth]

Cut 1 fetchland. 6 is more than enough. Add 2 Islands (so you have a total of 18 land). You need a 4th Remand. You have to cut a total of 2 other cards, which should be probably 1 Twincast and another Twincast or the Peek (you decide).


Words of Wisdom sucks. Cut them from the board, as well as at least 2 ReB. You obviously need more bounce. 1 Echoing Truth is obligatory, and a Wipe away might be a good idea. If you have alot of Thresh in your meta, make sure you have some Twincasts in the board too (make sure you can have 2/3 in your deck after boarding). Spell Snare might be a good idea too, but those slots depend on your meta, just like the Hydroblasts.

By the way, Hydroblast is technically better than ReB, because you can cast it on a non-red permanent (a land) to create some more storm.



Now for my question, how do you guys board against Countersliver and Hannifish. I tried boarding the same way as vs. Thresh, but I feel I need my Remands more in this match, since they have a faster clock.

[TheGoblinGeneral4]

isnt words of wisdom a good win condition? i know stroke of genius is better, but what happens if after you brain freeze them, and all you have left is mana to cast cunning wish -> words of wisdom to win? any suggestions to replace words?

[Bahamuth]

Look at my post above, I said you can play Spell Snares. And those situations where you need a win and you are 2 mana short for a Stroke occur on such a low amount of your games, that it's absolutely not worth it to play even one. Two is really really weird, because you won't ever wish for them twice, and you don't want to board them in anyway.

[cheddercaveman]

isnt words of wisdom a good win condition? i know stroke of genius is better, but what happens if after you brain freeze them, and all you have left is mana to cast cunning wish -> words of wisdom to win? any suggestions to replace words?

You only need the stroke when you have to win right then, generally I find that either I have the win or I don't at that point. Here is my current sideboard...

4x Hydroblast (these ARE technically better than BeB because in a pinch you could target your land with it)
2x Brain Freeze
3x Twincast
1x Stroke of Genius
1x Meditate
1x Turnabout
1x Wipe Away
1x Echoing Truth
1x Chain of Vapor

I hadn't been seeing many artifacts in my metagame until last night, so something will be getting cut to put the rebuild back in. I had to argue this with someone last night, but rebuild > hurkyl's recall because too often a staxxx player is going to be able to set chalice at both 1 and 2, and we're not playing artifacts so paying one more is fine.

[TheGoblinGeneral4]

yeah, thanks... that SB was better than mine, i really did make the SB at the last minute and didnt even have the cards w/ me, but next time i will use a SB similar to that one.

[mikejetd0rk]

My current SB looks like this:
4x Hydroblast
2x Brain Freeze
1x Rebuild
1x Twincast
1x Misdirection
1x Stroke of Genius
1x Meditate
1x Turnabout
1x Wipe Away
1x Echoing Truth
1x Chain of Vapor

[cheddercaveman]

My current SB looks like this:
4x Hydroblast
2x Brain Freeze
1x Rebuild
1x Twincast
1x Misdirection
1x Stroke of Genius
1x Meditate
1x Turnabout
1x Wipe Away
1x Echoing Truth
1x Chain of Vapor

When do you ever need to wish for misdirection? I'd rather just have twincast so that I can board in extras rather than wish for something I'll need to pitch a card to. By the time that its relative I'm generally combo-ing out and should have a remand or force in my hand. Wipe Away is still good too of course, but having 3 bounce spells might be over kill, just my opinion, but something to play around with. The twincasts are actually quite amazing, makes every card in your deck better, and it also helps in any matchup that has blue (not to mention IGGy pop isnt a big fan of it). Truthfully, I don't think the misdirection is necessary at all though.

[Elfrago]

How many twincast do you have in the deck? And how many in the board?

[Bahamuth]

3 bounce spells is definately not overkill. Those 3 all serve a different purpose. Chain of Vapor is the cheap one. Truth is used at chalice at 1 and EtW tokens. Wipe Away is used to fight ttrough counters trying to bounce a Meddling Mage.

[Van Phanel]

Hi, solidarity-players out there.

At the beginning of september there will be the German Legacy-Championships and I'm currently considering Solidarity. I do know that it sure isn't the most clever metagame-choice one could make, but I'm still willing to try it as I always valued having a cool deck over winning tournaments. However I need some help by you guys.

My current list looks like this:

12 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
2 Peek
2 Opt
4 Reset
4 Impulse
4 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
2 Flash of Insight
1 Twincast
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will

SB:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
2 Wipe Away (I board them against Meddling Mage and Counterbalance and the ocasional Rule of Law/Arcane Lab)
3 Twincast
4 Hydroblast

I'm expecting a meta of much Goblins/Affinity/Randomness where I should be at least slightly favored and the rest will probably be quite some aggro-control and fast storm-combo (TES/Belcher) with some Landstills here and there.

Now my primary question is, is there anything in addition to Wipe Away that works against Counterbalance? I have tried Spell Snare, but didn't like them very much because they simply aren't relevant anymore when the Counterbalance has reached play. I do like those boarded Wipe Away very much, because the decks packing Counterbalance usually only have 4 Force of Will as counters which means setting up an EOT Wipe Away + next turn Combo in response to the replayed Counterbalance is quite possible. What is more annoying is them starting to get multiple problematic permanents into play (I'm talking primarily of Meddling Mages + Counterbalances here) when a single Wipe Away isn't enough anymore. Did anybody try cutting maybe a Twincast and a Hydroblast from the board to be able to fit additional Echoing Truth/ other Bounce in? That would also improve chances against ETW as we'd have additional ways to get those tokens away.

Surprisingly enough I found Tarmogoyf not that big of a problem as he usually is 2/3 only ocassionally growing to 3/4 and rarely any bigger, so most of the time he's doing at most slightly more than a Werebear.

The second question is: Is Think Twice worth being in the deck over Opt (and maybe Twincast)? I have already thought about it for some time, but against decks with Counterbalance / Treshhold it only seems to slow down your setup for the combo-turn. On the other hand, it might help restore the hand after Forcing a Mage or Counterbalance.

@Lukas Preuss: In some forum (might even have been here) I've seen you write abut a list with Quirion Dryads + Krosan Grips side, would you mind showing me the list and a few thoughts about it?

Thanks for all answers in advance.

Van

[Tacosnape]

I'm expecting a meta of much Goblins/Affinity/Randomness where I should be at least slightly favored and the rest will probably be quite some aggro-control and fast storm-combo (TES/Belcher) with some Landstills here and there.

Now my primary question is, is there anything in addition to Wipe Away that works against Counterbalance? I have tried Spell Snare, but didn't like them very much because they simply aren't relevant anymore when the Counterbalance has reached play. I do like those boarded Wipe Away very much, because the decks packing Counterbalance usually only have 4 Force of Will as counters which means setting up an EOT Wipe Away + next turn Combo in response to the replayed Counterbalance is quite possible. What is more annoying is them starting to get multiple problematic permanents into play (I'm talking primarily of Meddling Mages + Counterbalances here) when a single Wipe Away isn't enough anymore. Did anybody try cutting maybe a Twincast and a Hydroblast from the board to be able to fit additional Echoing Truth/ other Bounce in? That would also improve chances against ETW as we'd have additional ways to get those tokens away.

Surprisingly enough I found Tarmogoyf not that big of a problem as he usually is 2/3 only ocassionally growing to 3/4 and rarely any bigger, so most of the time he's doing at most slightly more than a Werebear.

The second question is: Is Think Twice worth being in the deck over Opt (and maybe Twincast)? I have already thought about it for some time, but against decks with Counterbalance / Treshhold it only seems to slow down your setup for the combo-turn. On the other hand, it might help restore the hand after Forcing a Mage or Counterbalance.

@Lukas Preuss: In some forum (might even have been here) I've seen you write abut a list with Quirion Dryads + Krosan Grips side, would you mind showing me the list and a few thoughts about it?

Thanks for all answers in advance.

Van

To start with, in mono blue, no. Or at least not that we've found. The two best answers you have to Meddling Mage and Counterbalance are, in order, Wipe Away, and Spell Snare. Snare's intrigue is further added when you factor in that it stops Chalice and is also incredibly neat against any storm combo deck packing Burning Wish or Infernal Tutor.

The green splash with Quirion Dryad was originally my idea. It started by using Bound//Determined (Which, if resolved, lets you ignore Chalice or Counterbalance), then evolved into using Dryad as an alternate kill, and always packed a single Krosan Grip in the board. Grip is certainly a fantastic answer to single Counterbalances, single Chalices, and so forth. It just doesn't really offer any additional solutions to the number one culprit: Meddling Mage. But if you're interested, my green board looks like this:

4 Hydroblast
3 Quirion Dryad
2 Bound//Determined
1 Krosan Grip
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout

My take on Think Twice, in a nutshell, is this: If you're in a meta where Think Twice would be better in Solidarity than Opt or Peek, you shouldn't be playing Solidarity. It might be better against things like Threshold, and with intense effort you might get most Thresholdy-style matches as good as 50%, but you'll weaken all your other matches in the process.

Every deck has a matchup they just don't want to see, ever. Solidarity's is any deck packing multiple Meddling Mages and Counterbalances. Much like Goblins against fast Storm Combo, my take has always been to just suck up the random loss and focus on strengthening your other matchups. If my Solidarity hits some Counterbalance/Mage/Force aggro-control deck, sucks to be me. The bright side is a lot of those decks hate to see the other decks you listed.

The other splash available to you is White. White gives you access to Orim's Chant, Swords to Plowshares, and if you fear multiple Counterbalances, Tempest of Light. STP hits Mage, and Chant is solid for drawing counters.

Hope all that helps.

[noobslayer]

Abeyance might be better than Chant for two reasons.

1) It replaces itself. Always a plus. The fact that it costs one more is hardly relevant in that match I think. The only down side is it can't hold of a horde of EtW tokens for a turn.

2) It stops Top. This means they are stuck with the card on top when this resolves for the turn.

[Tacosnape]

Abeyance might be better than Chant for two reasons.

1) It replaces itself. Always a plus. The fact that it costs one more is hardly relevant in that match I think. The only down side is it can't hold of a horde of EtW tokens for a turn.

2) It stops Top. This means they are stuck with the card on top when this resolves for the turn.

That's an interesting idea. It does indeed get the benefit of self-replacement, which Solidarity loves.

The other downside is that Chant has a much higher chance of stopping a very fast combo (IE, you might have to do it before you get 2 lands on the board.)

[Bahamuth]

How does the green splash work out for you? I suppose the Dryads come in vs. Thresh when the board their creature removal out. Do you still keep them in after the second game?

I have a local tournament soon too, and my board is going to look like this:
3 Spell Snare
2 Twincast
2 Brain Freeze
1 Urza's Rage
1 Sudden Shock
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor

First of all, I don't expect any Goblins. I think there were 2 Goblin player last time, out of about 50 players. Second of all, I do expect a lot of Deadguy stuff and other aggro control. I know I probably shouldn't be playing this deck with a meta like that, but I love Solidarity and I really don't have anything else good to run.

What do you think about the Red Splash these days? worth it?

[Van Phanel]

My first thought when seeing Tempest of Light was the question if there isn't something for 4 mana which does the same thing as more and more counterbalance-decks have started running cards in their 3-slot. Turns out there is: Patrician's Scorn

In my mind's eye I'm seeing a lethal attack looking my way, where I Swords their Meddling Mage naming High Tide, then play Patrician's Scorn for free killing their Counterbalance then combo them out. I am aware that you'll rarely be able to use it that way as the Counterbalance might prevent the StoP from resolving, but it sure is a fun thought.

How would my list look then?

Probably 2 Tundra for 2 Island (is a seventh fetchie necessary?)

and then how about the sideboard?

3 Abeyance/ Orim's Chant (in the slots of the Twincasts)
1 Tempest/ Scorn (in the slot of a Wipe Away)
3/4 Swords (in which slots?)

From here it looks like the white-splash would just clog up the sideboard with not very much real improvement, but that's just a first look. As I wrote the rest of my post I reconsidered the white-splash and the Chants seem to also improve the matchup against Belcher/TES(/Iggy-Pop) by much

It would be great if there was a single card (a split-card maybe) that would be able to either deal with a counter during the combo or deal with an annoying permanent. Pyroblasts come to mind here, they only suffer from the fact that their converted manacost is perfectly within Counterbalance-Range. At first thought, I might value them over Spell Snares because of their possibility to deal with an already resolved Mage and - if very lucky - Counterbalance.

Then another question:

Is boarding Spell Snares against Affinity reasonable? They counter every card that is able to kill you on its own (Ravager, Atog, Fling, Plating) thus giving you more time, but they suffer very much from affinity's use of Vial.

[Bahamuth]

Perhaps Pyroblast really is a good idea. It counters Counterbalance, Meddling Mage and other counters, It destroys Meddling Mage and Counterbalance and it only costs a single mana...

To me this sounds like a much better option than running 3-4 StP and something that destroys enchantments in your board...

[cheddercaveman]

To start with, in mono blue, no. Or at least not that we've found. The two best answers you have to Meddling Mage and Counterbalance are, in order, Wipe Away, and Spell Snare. Snare's intrigue is further added when you factor in that it stops Chalice and is also incredibly neat against any storm combo deck packing Burning Wish or Infernal Tutor.

The green splash with Quirion Dryad was originally my idea. It started by using Bound//Determined (Which, if resolved, lets you ignore Chalice or Counterbalance), then evolved into using Dryad as an alternate kill, and always packed a single Krosan Grip in the board. Grip is certainly a fantastic answer to single Counterbalances, single Chalices, and so forth. It just doesn't really offer any additional solutions to the number one culprit: Meddling Mage. But if you're interested, my green board looks like this:

4 Hydroblast
3 Quirion Dryad
2 Bound//Determined
1 Krosan Grip
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout

My take on Think Twice, in a nutshell, is this: If you're in a meta where Think Twice would be better in Solidarity than Opt or Peek, you shouldn't be playing Solidarity. It might be better against things like Threshold, and with intense effort you might get most Thresholdy-style matches as good as 50%, but you'll weaken all your other matches in the process.

Every deck has a matchup they just don't want to see, ever. Solidarity's is any deck packing multiple Meddling Mages and Counterbalances. Much like Goblins against fast Storm Combo, my take has always been to just suck up the random loss and focus on strengthening your other matchups. If my Solidarity hits some Counterbalance/Mage/Force aggro-control deck, sucks to be me. The bright side is a lot of those decks hate to see the other decks you listed.

The other splash available to you is White. White gives you access to Orim's Chant, Swords to Plowshares, and if you fear multiple Counterbalances, Tempest of Light. STP hits Mage, and Chant is solid for drawing counters.

Hope all that helps.

I've got a couple of comments on some of these things....

For starters, think twice is very good in this deck. It should be in the Peek slot though, not the Opt slot. Opt actually gives you some choice over what your drawing. The purpose of Peek was to let you get an edge on the opponent by knowing what they're holding. Think Twice allows you to be able to power through some of the hate and develop an actual advantage rather than a knowledge advantage. Whether it takes the twincast spot for you I think is open to debate. For me I still maindeck the one twincast. There are decks other than threshold that this card is helpful for (anything packing ritual-duress-hymn comes to mind). If you want more information on this go back through this post quite a ways and you'll see Gearhart's explanations for the changes. So far I've been pleased with the card.

Additionally, I've not run spellsnare, or any other hard counter (other than hydroblast) in my sideboard and it hasnt been an issue. I realize that this hits a lot of stuff that comes down on turn one, but thats why we put bounce in the deck. We already run force of will too.

I don't see a lot of counterbalance in my metagame because we have a lot of aggro generally and its a little too slow to setup against that. Not to mention goblins just drops the turn 1 lackey/vial and that counterbalance is pretty useless. So I've not seen much of it in my area to speak on or the other way on it.

As far as splashing another color, I think your weakening the deck and/or the manabase by doing so. The green splash is certainly an interesting idea, but it weakens your ability to combo off, and only 3 dryad's are coming in. Not to mention thats assuming that they arent going to be able to block it or remove it, which they probably will (especially game 3). The white cards suggested are good, but I don't know that they're what this deck needs by anymeans. Swords is not better than chain of vapor, still costs 1 and can be countered. Orim's chant and abeyance are at least instants, but they just play the waiting game really, you should be ok without them. The red splash that Gearhart suggests back a ways in this thread is reasonable, and he explains the purpose of the splash.

[lebarion]

Hi,
This is my first post here, but I've been reading this forum for a while.

I'm from Brazil and I'm thinking about playing Solidarity in a champ at my local store, so I'd like to know your opinion. The metagame here is a mess, but I'll most certainly face IGGy Pop, Landstill and Fish, and probably some random "cheap" decks like MonoGreen stompy and MonoRed Burn.

Also, I'd like to ask you how Solidarity goes against non-white threshold. I'm just curious, as I see many discussion on how to deal with Meddling Mage, but didn't find discussion about UGr Threshold here.

Thanks in advance, and sorry my poor english.

[cheddercaveman]

Hi,
This is my first post here, but I've been reading this forum for a while.

I'm from Brazil and I'm thinking about playing Solidarity in a champ at my local store, so I'd like to know your opinion. The metagame here is a mess, but I'll most certainly face IGGy Pop, Landstill and Fish, and probably some random "cheap" decks like MonoGreen stompy and MonoRed Burn.

Also, I'd like to ask you how Solidarity goes against non-white threshold. I'm just curious, as I see many discussion on how to deal with Meddling Mage, but didn't find discussion about UGr Threshold here.

Thanks in advance, and sorry my poor english.

I would say that you would be able to play Solidarity with some success. I've not matched up against IGGy pop, but bring in twincasts and you generate infinite mana when they try to win and you go ahead and stroke them for 61.

Landstill is usually packign a number of counters, but for the most part its a deck designed for aggro, some smart playing can with you this matchup.

Fish very much depends on what version of fish it is. UW(b) fish is packing counters, duress, and meddling mage, so that could be a rough, but not unwinable match.

Non-White Thres is a lot easier for you, just play around the counters. The rest of the stuff should be fine once you learn how to play the deck properly

[Tacosnape]

You could probably go so far as to say that Blue aggro control without Mage is favorable and Blue aggro control with Mage is unfavorable. Mage is the single biggest enemy of Solidarity.

UGR Threshold loves Counterbalance, though, and Counterbalance is a pain in the ass.

[Eldariel]

Landstill is basically your easiest MU. Any control-deck usually is unable to really put up a relevant clock and you can just go off at your leisure. Basically though, anything but fast aggro-decks with sufficient numbers of relevant disruption (Duresses, Meddling Mages, Counterbalances, Chalice of the Voids, etc.) you can win against. UWb Fish is pretty much the worst thing to play against since Duress+Meddling Mage+counters is hard times, but the good news is that their clock is worse than Threshold's or Faerie Stompy's so you can use your lifetotal as a bit more effective buffer buying you enough time to win.

[cheddercaveman]

You could probably go so far as to say that Blue aggro control without Mage is favorable and Blue aggro control with Mage is unfavorable. Mage is the single biggest enemy of Solidarity.

UGR Threshold loves Counterbalance, though, and Counterbalance is a pain in the ass.

Agreed! Adds clock and shuts down something. Bad news. Counterbalance is just about as bad as mage too, but you can always get lucky. B/W Deadguy style decks can be rough too depending on their draw. I recently found that belcher is not too good either. No force in the opening hand and your probably going down.

[Jander78]

Landstill is basically your easiest MU.
Since there are multiple builds of Landstill, I would say that this blanket statement does not always hold true, and in some cases is completely false.


(Duresses, Meddling Mages, Counterbalances, Chalice of the Voids, etc.)
Smart sideboarding and deck construction on a Landstill players side and they have the ability to bring in all of the problem cards that Solidarity can have issues with facing as well as a lot of builds running Stifle between MD and SB.

[Van Phanel]

You are aware of the fact that Stifle basically does nothing except - maybe - countering a Fetchland?

You are also aware of the fact that a Landstill build like that would lose very much of its power against a random field?

It might perhaps be possible for a Landstill-build to get a slightly favorable macthup postboard, but you simply can't have a good matchup against solidarity preboard because you have to run lots of cards that kill creatures. Adan's U-R Landstill is the worst kind of landstill solidarity can meet and even there I'd say that the matchup is favorable (maybe only slightly (probably even or slightly worse than even against the version with maindecked Counterbalances))

If you can show us a build that is not U-R Landstill that has a favorable matchup against solidarity while still being a viable deck for the metagame in whole, I'm really interested.

However I don't think we should be discussing different builds of landstill here, so sorry about that.

@Topic: Again, would it be good to board Spell Snares against Affinity?
They counter all cards that let them win on the spot (Ravager, Atog, Plating, Fling) but they weaken the combo.

Also I still like my 2 Wipe Away, could my sideboard look like this:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Echoing Truth
2 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Twincast
3 Hydroblast
3 Spell Snare

Also is there anything that can improve our belcher matchup? And with the above board, how would I board? I' d probably want to board in the Blasts to counter acceleratin/Wish, but nothing else, correct?

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Also I still like my 2 Wipe Away, could my sideboard look like this:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Echoing Truth
2 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Twincast
3 Hydroblast
3 Spell Snare

Also is there anything that can improve our belcher matchup? And with the above board, how would I board? I' d probably want to board in the Blasts to counter acceleratin/Wish, but nothing else, correct?


You would board in Spell Snares as well obv. They counter Burning Wish and Desperate Ritual, mainly Burning Wish. Also, there are many cards you can randomly board out because against Belcher, once they go all in and you stop them, you have some turns to sit around and set up you're own combo.


I generally go something like this for board.

-1x Turnabout
-1x Twincast
-1x Brainfreeze
-2x Peek

+3x Spell SNare
+2x Hydroblast

[Eldariel]

Since there are multiple builds of Landstill, I would say that this blanket statement does not always hold true, and in some cases is completely false.

Smart sideboarding and deck construction on a Landstill players side and they have the ability to bring in all of the problem cards that Solidarity can have issues with facing as well as a lot of builds running Stifle between MD and SB.

Alright, let's put it this way: "Non-Duress non-Chalice using Landstill-builds fall under the category of easy control-decks for Solidarity to beat." It's true that I was generalizing a bit too much, but from what I've seen, those builds are still the vast majority of Landstill-builds being played. I don't think Stifle helps Landstill all that much in the end; while it does improve the game against the 'partial Freeze'-plan, it doesn't give Landstill the critical amount of counters to actually prevent Solidarity from going off before manlands finish things.

[noobslayer]

Landstill in virtually every iteration of itself will provide an inherent advantage to Solidarity. There will be games where landstill has a million hard counters, but those games are few and far between.

I still would not advocate solidarity in the current metagame. The format is filled with fast combo decks, and will slowly shift to accommodate it with an influx of aggro-control decks. If you still feel the need to play this deck however, play mono blue. It hasn't failed me yet.

[Tacosnape]

You are aware of the fact that Stifle basically does nothing except - maybe - countering a Fetchland?

This is completely incorrect.

When playing as Landstill against Solidarity, which I will dare to argue I've played more than most people alive (I've played the full matchup, including sideboard, as 4C Landstill, over 100 and probably close to 200 times), Stifle is used to stop Brain Freeze's Storm Trigger and nothing else.

"But wait, Tacosnape, don't be an idiot. Everyone knows Stifle doesn't hurt Brain Freeze due to Remand or another Counter or simply another Brain Freeze."

I know the arguments. I know Solidarity. There aren't but maybe six people who post in this thread that know it better. Solidarity only barrels through Stifle if it has the resources to do so, and against a well-tuned Landstill deck postboard, it doesn't always have them.

First of all, when playing as 4C Landstill or any other Landstill, the correct thing to do (usually) is to let all High Tides resolve. This will allow you to hardcast an entire hand full of Counterspells, Force of Wills, and if you run them, Orim's Chants and Extirpates. Therefore, what usually will happen is that Solidarity will build up a godhand, and so will you. Solidarity will attempt to kill you at some point, and you will stop the high impact draw spells: Meditate, Impulse, and sometimes Cunning Wish. If you are given priority at the right time, Extirpate Flash of Insight, or on rare occasions you can hit both Cunning Wish -and- Brain Freeze.

What will often result is an epic clash of spells and counterspells that will end with Landstill stopping Solidarity's resources, but while leaving a Storm Count of about 14 or 15, with Solidarity trying to kill you with a rogue Brain Freeze. Stifle will save your ass here, and it will do it far more often than you'd expect.

Don't expect Stifle to ever win a game singlehandedly against Solidarity, but having a rogue one in your hand will swing a tight resource war to Landstill's favor, and Solidarity would do well to be aware of this situation.

[barron]

First i would like to say I am with noobslayer. Now is not the meta to play solidarity, but if you do just go mono blue. But i think the faster combo will be hated out a bit more effectively soon, possibly in a way that will allow solidarity to wreck shop again. I have hit a wall with this deck. I can go to a tournament and make the deck so it is favorable (often grossly favorable) against discard+combo (same SB strategy) thresh, but not goblins, or goblins thresh but not discard, or discard goblins but not thresh. I will need to figure that out soon.

As far as landstill. Tacnoscape is right. the battle is so intense and draining both decks usually run out of steam and that last stifle can wreck your day, but I still think the matchup is greatly in your favor. Primarily because of the weak clock, but mostly because the landstill player has to be very skilled at playing the deck (something i don't encounter often).

[Elfrago]

The real problem of Solidarity is not Landstill, but TES & Belcher.
The Landstill matchup is even. The Fast-Combo matchup is terrible.
When TES & Belcher are gone, Solidarity may do a comeback.
Right now, forget it.

[Muradin]

In my oppinion Solidarity's Matchup against the fast combodecks is far from terrible. In the past Solidarity was known for its good matchups against all other combodecks. This isn't true anymore, as the other combodecks became much faster and more stable. But I think that your Matchup against TES and Belcher is still about 50 %. I've tested the Solidarity VS Belcher Matchup alot and Solidarity won 57 out of 100 games.
This decks real problem are much more all the fish and ******** decks which are quite popular now due to the rise of the other faster combodecks.
The existance of Counterbalance/Top is another reason for Solidarity's loss of popularity.

[shteev]

But I think that your Matchup against TES and Belcher is still about 50 %. I've tested the Solidarity VS Belcher Matchup alot and Solidarity won 57 out of 100 games.

How many of those games were post board, and what did you board?