[Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide) [Archive] - Page 8

lebarion

08-26-2007, 08:56 AM

I played mono blue Solidarity to a 2nd place in a small tournament (10 players) yesterday, here in Brazil.

Round 1 vs Burn
I won 2-0. He started both games suspending Rift Bolt. This made me relax a little bit, thinking his deck was not optimal. In both games, I went off with 5 lands, but with letal damage in the stack.

Round 2 vs Rifter
First game was easy as it should be. Second game he started with Chrome Mox, land, Pyrostatic Pillar; second turn another land, another Pyrostatic Pillar. I have draw no Cunning Wish or Hydroblast, and I lost. In the third game, things were normal again.

Round 3 vs Goblin
First game he killed me in the 4th turn. I tried to go off and was able to brain freeze his whole deck, but not to make him draw or to turnabout his Goblins. Second game I won the race and went off in the 4th turn, but game 3 I lost again.

Round 4 vs UG Denial (Counters and Land destruction)
First game I started playing lands and Cantrips, and he started destroying my lands. I twincasted an Ice Storm to destroy a Mishra's Factory in the 4th turn, the he played Eternal Witness and started to beat me. I tried to go off with 3 lands, but he countered some of my spells and I played a brain freeze with storm count of 10, keeping High Tide, Turnabout and Cunning Wish in my hand. In my turn I played High Tide, Turnabout my lands and Cunning Wish for Brain Freeze, and finished the job.
Second game I tryed to go off with 6 lands, with my life at 3. I played High Tide, he forced, I forced, he forced again, I left the forces and high tide on the stack and played Reset, Impulse for Metidate, Turnabout my lands, Meditate for Force of Will, Reset, Brainstorm and Cunning Wish. When I played the Reset, he said "I don't wanna see you doing it again" :tongue:

A Threshold won the tournament (I was lucky not to play against him, he was using a UG version with Counterbalance MD), Solidarity took 2nd place and Goblins took 3rd. I'm pretty satisfied with the deck and with my performance, although I have to practice more. Many times I spent a long time (by long time I mean 5-10 minutes) thinking what was the right decision while comboing.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-26-2007, 04:04 PM

I barreled through the Swiss of a 16 person Frog tournament with this deck yesterday, borrowing the build Gearhart had on him. Or rather, I barreled through three rounds, two Cephalid Breakfast and one Vial Goblins, and got smashed one round by Mono-Brak Aggro ("Brown"-Black, aka 5/3 with Negators and sideboard shite. Trinisphere + Chalice + Tangle Wire= Bad news).

Breakfast and Goblins both felt like very good matchups to me. Even a busted Lackey start is raceable, and I didn't feel like I was in any danger without the Lackey. Force + Remand, with additional counters out of the board plus bounce, made Breakfast feel like a cakewalk, with the only real danger being early discard + Tarmogoyf beats. But they really aren't build to exploit that effectively, and a 3/4 Tarmogoyf just isn't that fast.

What I really liked about the build that I borrowed from Gearhart was that it was stripped down and streamlined. There were no cute mini combos or splashes, it was just an efficient, old-fashioned Solidarity list that drew cards, countered a few things, then went off.

Bahamuth

08-27-2007, 12:50 AM

Were there any differences in that list from the standart list? And if so, could you list them here?

Deep6er

08-27-2007, 12:58 AM

If possible, I'd like to keep that under wraps until I finish testing it. I haven't finished yet, and I'll be getting on that but I've just been busy lately. Seriously, when I get new tech that's testing well, I'll let you guys know. But for now, give me time.

zulander

08-27-2007, 01:06 AM

He plays 2 living wish main. One for a tropical island and one for tarmogoyf. Then he plays high tide so he can cast Tarmogoyf off of the one trop. HOW BUSTED IS THAT? David Gearheardt is so lovely.

Tacosnape

08-27-2007, 01:29 AM

Considering it's actually written in the rules of Legacy deck construction that your deck must contain 4 Tarmogoyfs in either maindeck or sideboard, this could very well be possible.

From what little I know of Gearhart's 'Tech,' which is one card (He probably has more I'm unaware of), it's a pretty pleasant surprise. I've had tremendous success with it.

Stepping away from the sneaky tech conversation though, has anyone tinkered around with Predict? I've found that throwing it blindly at yourself naming "Island" isn't a bad move, and it's pretty nifty with Brainstorm, and it's even niftier when you roll a Flash of Insight into your graveyard.

At the very worst, it's :1::u: for a card, which is bad, but not the end of the world.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-27-2007, 02:26 AM

Impulse is probably the card I'm least happy with at the moment, so no, I didn't try the bad Impulse myself. Honestly, I'd consider cutting it entirely for a couple Twincasts and some duplicate Meditate effects, which is what the deck really wants, I think. TfK is probably the best choice.

Bahamuth

08-27-2007, 05:03 AM

That defiantely sounds exciting. I'm looking forward to it.

I don't think cutting Impulse would be right. That card plays a crucial role in finding Tides and Resets in time. There might be better alternatives tough, altough I don't think Predict would be one.

Predict might be good in the Peek slots perhaps?

cheddercaveman

08-27-2007, 01:57 PM

I've been playing think twice in the peek slot and its seemed to be good when it needs to be. I can fight through more of the hate it seems like.

I personally am very excited to see what the Guru of Blue Instants has coming at us for the newest solidarity build.

FRM

09-03-2007, 04:33 AM

deadlock

09-03-2007, 04:35 AM

I think the best bet is to replace Impulse with this one and maybe cut one Island with a cantrip base of 4 BS, 4 Opt and 4 Think. This leaves two open slots for Twincast/ TfK whatever. Thoughts?

barron

09-03-2007, 04:38 AM

Maybe it's just me, but I am rather fond of impulse. This card seems strickly better than opt so that's what i would take out for it.

Tacosnape

09-03-2007, 05:01 AM

Acting like a black mage, casting zombify on this thread, i bring you this news from a usually reliable source (mtgsalvation).

Think U
Instant Common
Look at the top three cards of your library. You may put them back in any order or shuffle your library.
Draw a card.

Enter a new contender in the opt/peek fight :P (if confirmed, of course...)

It's a contender that eliminates Peek and makes Solidarity go to 4 Opt, 4 Think, if this is as it seems. This is a nutbar card if it's real and goes against everything Wizards ever said about printing cantrips.

FRM

09-03-2007, 05:36 AM

It's a contender that eliminates Peek and makes Solidarity go to 4 Opt, 4 Think, if this is as it seems. This is a nutbar card if it's real and goes against everything Wizards ever said about printing cantrips.

That wouldn't be the first time wizard rethinks some "policy" :)
It's a version of portent we can actually play and i can see this easily in threshold, even in lists which actually choose not to play portent
ps(off topic): no autocard on the forum?

Blaukreuz

09-03-2007, 06:15 AM

so what do you think:

4x Think
2x Opt
2x Peek

or

4x Impulse
4x Think

or

4x Think
4x Opt

or something else?

barron

09-03-2007, 06:17 AM

I will probably stick with 4 Think 4 Impulse just so COTV doesn't hurt quite as much, but it is something I will definitely try different variations with. But I think impulse is a very solid turn two play and I like that it doesn't shuffle which makes the digging very thorough.

Blaukreuz

09-03-2007, 06:26 AM

Hm, what would be the combination that would make Solidarity as fast as possible? (higher percentage of turn3&4 kills)

Taurelin

09-03-2007, 07:21 AM

I personally feel much symapthy for the 4 Think, 4 Impulse version, since Impulse just digs the deepest and finds exactly what you want while getting rid of the rest, temporarily.

Another question that comes to my mind is if the additional shuffle tech allows for the reduction of the number of fetchlands, to maybe 5. Any thoughts on that?

deadlock

09-03-2007, 07:52 AM

The advantage with Opt + Think over Impulse is that you are allowed to keep shakier hands land wise.
It isnt the case that you dont have good turn 2 plays, BS/Think + Fetch or Remand are both great. So Impulse isnt really needed here. I am more concerned about first turn plays, where Opt shines most imo.
On the other hand its very reasonable to try 4 Thin(k), 4 Impulse, but then you need the 18th land definitly. Playtesting will tell..

Taurelin

09-03-2007, 08:35 AM

On the other hand its very reasonable to try 4 Thin(k), 4 Impulse, but then you need the 18th land definitly. Playtesting will tell..

Well, my thoughts went more into the direction of 18 lands = 13 Islands + 5 Fetchlands, just to reduce the lifeloss/stifle/needle disadvantages of them.

noobslayer

09-03-2007, 09:21 AM

I'm, I think this is strictly better than Opt. So I would just straight up replace it. However, Shady has shown me some evidence that merits the inclusion of Peek, so I'll have to get back you guys on that one.

Tacosnape

09-03-2007, 01:05 PM

I say 4 Impulse, 4 Opt, 4 Think. Plowing through your deck at the speed of light is good. Think is what Solidarity has been missing for a long, long time.

Here's what I'm planning on running today for testing.

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
10 Island

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
3 Remand
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Think
4 Impulse
2 Flash of Insight
2 Brain Freeze

I'm sure there might be more intelligent cuts (16 might be too low on land even with the 12 super-cantrips, and Remand might not be the best card to axe a single of), but I feel like something close to this would probably be the strongest thing Solidarity has had in quite some time.

Elfrago

09-03-2007, 01:30 PM

First, I'm almost sure that Think is a sorcery. It's too strong to fit in wizards policy of "Instant card draw".

If it's an instant, I will use 4 Brainstorms, 4 Think, 4 Impulse.This REALLY allows to dig into your library. Also, I'll try 7 fetchlands, since Think gets better with a fetch in play (play Think, put a good card on top, draw that, break fetch, shuffle shit away).

It'also could be useful in a list that aims for the turn three kill.

Illissius

09-03-2007, 01:52 PM

R&D's policy, I believe, is no instant speed draw which nets you +1 or more card advantage. They cleverly worked around this in Time Spiral block, but either way, Think wouldn't be breaking it.

Elfrago

09-04-2007, 11:31 AM

Now on the mtgsalvation spoiler it is a sorcery.

cheddercaveman

09-04-2007, 02:47 PM

I would rant on how terrible it is that R&D's policy that no more than +1 card advantage at instant speed is considering they've been giving more and more other colors useful cantrips recently it seems. Instead I'll just be sad about Ponder (formerly Think) being a sorcery rather than an instant. I suppose there might be a new build coming from Gearhart soon, so I'll just look forward to that.

Sanguine Voyeur

09-04-2007, 04:30 PM

I don't believe that "Ponder" is an sorcery.

If you look at the source (http://mtgjapan.x.cmssquare.com/modules/wordpress/index.php?p=144) of the card and find the card with Portent and Æthermage's Touch under it, its type is listed as "インスタント," witch phonetically translates out as insutanto. It's obvious that "insutanto" is borrowed from English's "instant."

dazed and confused

09-05-2007, 02:22 PM

Ok so i have been reading some of this post and its way to much to go threw, i used to play this deck and was quite good at it. I was wondering why it is no longer a DTB? is it because of the new metta? is it because most people who played it did not know how to play it properly and the losses in tournaments made its stats for DTB too low? Is this deck still a contender if played? I have been away from magic for a year now so would be nice if someone could update me

Thank you

Jak

09-05-2007, 02:26 PM

The deck was hated out by thresh and the faster combo decks. Solidarity has a bad thresh MU, and with thresh on the rise, it just is not doing well. Other combo decks like TES and Belcher are just far to fast and Cephalid Breakfast plays a ton more disruption and is faster. It is just not the time to play this deck. When control is being played more, then it will do well. It can still shine in a right meta for it.

GreenOne

09-05-2007, 02:41 PM

Cephalid Breakfast plays a ton more disruption

Well, not really, at least not in the maindeck.

Solidarity's disruption:
4 FoW, 4 Remand, (1 Twincast).
Side: Spell Snare / Twincasts / Disrupts / Bounce

Breakfast's disruption:
4 FoW, 2 Therapy
Side: Duress, Abeyance

Jak

09-05-2007, 02:52 PM

Well yeah. I was also talking about after SB. But it still is a lot faster, even though it plays 3 less protection spells.

Silverdragon

09-08-2007, 05:58 AM

Lately I was just messing around a bit with the leftovers of my Solidarity and I stumbled across some interesting cards that shurely have already been tested by Deep6er and deemed unplayable but I'll mention them anyway.
First is Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. Although his cc of 5 is a lot he could improve all non-Counterbalance Aggro-Control/Control matchups and additionally he's a beatstick so he can block or try to race.
Second I was thinking of Snap. With even the faster Combodecks running Creatures now from EtW Tokens to Xantid Swarm or Shield Sphere you'll have targets for Snap a lot of the time and Snap is a great help against Meddling Mage and basically every beater out there except for Mongoose.
Third is another legendary creature with flash. Of course I'm talking about the über-Remand Venser, Shaper Savant. Much like Teferi he can help stall the game for one or two more turns and he can protect your spells and even your lands from being nuked.
I was only able to test these cards once and got utterly crushed by Baseruption when his Counterbalance randomly revealed a Finkel to counter my Wipe Away :(
Anyway I think taking this deck to an even more controlling route could make it viable again. Like Landstill with a combofinish :)

Nihil Credo

09-08-2007, 09:15 AM

I'd say that Chant/Abeyance is definitely better than Teferi, and Repeal is probably better than Venser (Memory Lapse also comes to mind). Maindeck Snap, now, that's probably worth testing.

Knuckles29

09-19-2007, 07:17 PM

what is "Think"????

I can't find it listed anywhere.. do you mean Think Twice??

HdH_Cthulhu

09-19-2007, 07:30 PM

I think think is a new card!

Wynk

09-19-2007, 07:47 PM

Think is the code name for a new Lowyrn card Ponder.

Its essentially a new Portent.

cost U
sorcery
look at the top 3 cards of your library. Put them in any order or shuffle your library. Draw a card.

Zach Tartell

09-19-2007, 08:52 PM

what is "Think"????

I can't find it listed anywhere.. do you mean Think Twice??

Ponder was orrigionally spoiled as an instant, which would have been freaking awesome. As it is (actually), it is a not-slow-trip portent that can't target your opponent. Not worth looking into for Solidarity.

Lukas Preuss

09-20-2007, 03:34 AM

Second I was thinking of Snap. With even the faster Combodecks running Creatures now from EtW Tokens to Xantid Swarm or Shield Sphere you'll have targets for Snap a lot of the time and Snap is a great help against Meddling Mage and basically every beater out there except for Mongoose.

I have tested Snap to some extend a few months ago. It was quite nice, since it takes care of Xantid Swarm, Meddling Mage, Tarmogoyf, etc. and can be used as additional Untap-effect during the combo in most cases. There are not that many decks around that don't rely on creatures at all. But I had problems with what to cut for it. I tried to replace one Turnabout and one Twincast with it, but quickly noticed that 2 Turnabout is too less for the deck to function properly. I played a game against Goblins and faced lethal damage, but had to use one Turnabout to FoW in the beginning and one to continue the combo. In the end I still won, but it was way more difficult.

Bahamuth

09-20-2007, 11:52 AM

From what little I know of Gearhart's 'Tech,' which is one card (He probably has more I'm unaware of), it's a pretty pleasant surprise. I've had tremendous success with it.

By the way, Deep6er, when will you release this new tech? I'm really looking forward to it!

Deep6er

09-20-2007, 04:25 PM

I'm getting around to it. The problem with creating and testing new decks is that I can only play one deck in a tournament. Since I've found another deck that is a blast to play as well as being (probably) good, I've been playing that a lot. Unfortunately, since I can't play two decks in a tournament, this leaves me unable to test the new tweaks to my list. I will definitely get around to it, and soon, but I just don't like to release "tech" that's soon found out to be worthless. So, give me some more time, and I'll start getting to the testing.

On another matter, Teferi and Venser both suck balls. I've tested both of them. The matchup that you think they would help (Threshold) they're the worst draws ever. Also, they don't help any other matchups. Thus, they suck. Maindeck Snap is surprisingly bad. Don't let the reliance on creatures in the metagame fool you, it's still ridiculously terrible.

Tacosnape

09-25-2007, 03:26 AM

Okay so, seeing as how I'm too lazy to sell my Resets and seeing as how every deck in my metagame / possibly in existence is packing insane graveyard hate, Me and a six pack of Mike's Hard Lemonade have decided to get a little innovative. This whole plan started from careful analysis of all the split second cards, which all seemed like decent splash ideas, and a lot of contemplation as to what I wanted from Cunning Wish. What ensues is a thought-provoking polar opposite of any streamlined blue Solidarity build. I shall call it Neon Tide.

6 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Impulse
4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Remand
4 Force of Will
4 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
3 Meditate
2 Flash of Insight
2 Brain Freeze

SB:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze
1 Krosan Grip
1 Extirpate
1 Wipe Away
1 Sudden Shock
1 Abeyance
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Tempest of Light
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Twincast
1 Mystical Tutor

Other Metagame SB Options:
1 Disrupting Shoal
1 Fire // Ice
1 Moment's Peace
1 Stifle
1 Spell Snare
1...well, you get the idea.

At the cost of manabase stability, I've managed to produce a completely customizable, tweakable Solidarity that eschews sideboard 4-ofs in favor of making Cunning Wish into a monster and has an incredible array of options to board in after game one.

Krosan Grip: It's there mostly for Counterbalance, but it'll happily take out Chalice or anything else in its path.

Extirpate: Oddly neat when locked in a huge counterwar, and also a bizarre answer in case somebody decides to pack a Gaea's Blessing. Boarded in against Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid, among other decks.

Sudden Shock: Kills Mage, Kills Teeg, kills other random problematic small guys (Like 3/4 of Death and Taxes.) Boarded in against Cephalid Breakfast as it's useful unless they have a Vial.

Swords to Plowshares: Mostly does Sudden Shock's thing, only with the secondary bonus of getting a Tarmogoyf off your ass too in exchange for being counterable.

Abeyance: Useful against Blue and combo. Gets boarded in against combo. You can change up where it is to keep counter-based decks guessing.

Rebuild: Handles Stax and Affinity rather nicely.

Tempest of Light: Probably a metagame call, but it's a godsend against Enchantress's stupid Sterling Grove / Rule of Law orgies.

Mystical Tutor: Surprisingly decent as a silver bullet in this bizarre build. Can fetch your Tide EOT on turn four in a pinch, or a Force, or whatever. Post-board, grabs whatever card you boarded in and need to dig up the most. Boarding MT itself in should be based on how fast you anticipate you'll need the card.

The Manabase: 8 Fetchlands is necessary to hit whatever color you need at the time. Always lead with an Island if you have it, obviously, as Wasteland hurts. If not, it's worth noting the immense potential to completely disguise what you're playing by dropping or fetching a dual, then casting Brainstorm (Or even Opt now) during their turn.

Thoughts? Comments? Flames? Suggestions on Wish targets?

Citrus-God

09-25-2007, 10:59 AM

Neon Tide.... Sounds like a night club... I like the name...

As for the SB... WTF mate? Make it somewhat consistent! Throw in Abeyances, Sudden Shocks, and Krosan Grips at least!

Think Twice needs it's way back in. Aggressive FoWing is part of this deck's nature, and Think Twice helps you recover from it.

-2 Opt

+2 Think Twice

SB should be

1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Echoing Truth
1 Sudden Shock
1 Wipe Away
1 Moment's Peace
1 Starstorm
4 Abeyance
3 Krosan Grip

And I would cut Black from te deck for another Red source.

lesly

09-27-2007, 03:20 PM

i think you better keep it at one splash,cause the mana base will suffer like hell when you are playing vs wasteland.

you play green already,so what is white giving you?abeyance?bound/determined is strictly better,cause you play through cotv also,and it nets you a card,and is at the same cost of abeyance...

M.mage isnt played much more either so you could kick red also(unless you got a meta full of mages,but then you better go with red tide i guess anyway?)

lebarion

10-24-2007, 02:02 PM

If someone is still playing this deck :rolleyes: , I'd like to ask a few questions...

What's the sideboard plan/game plan against Stacks? At first I though this MU should be easy, but I've found myself losing to a lot of spheres followed by a Smokestack/Crucible lock more often than I'd like to.

Is there some way to deal with Cephalid breakfast? They usually can be quicker than us, and FoW's and Remands doesn't seem to be enough to slow them down.

For brainstorming: has anybody tried Mystical Teachings in this deck? It's expensive, but I think it can improve some MUs. I'm trying it in the place of peeks, but I'm not sure about them yet.

Thanks!

spirit of the wretch

10-24-2007, 02:39 PM

Against Stacks it's a pretty good idea to win die roll, than your Remands are very useful to slow them down long enough (if they don't have the nuts hand). I played the deck last week on a local tourney (5/0/0, great Metagame =) with 4x Wipe Away in the Sideboard (mainly against Meddling Mage and Counterbalance). Seems decent against Stacks too. If your Meta is full of Stacks.decs you can always up the Rebuild count in the SB.

Your Matchup against Breakfast is pretty bad. They are consistant (read: they don't scoop to a single FoW) and faster than you are. You could play crap like Pongify in the SB (which they will therapy away), or hope for them to scrub out. Not much to improve in this MU, I guess. More Chain of Vapor maybe is an idea.

Teachings seems way to expensive to me.

Bahamuth

10-24-2007, 02:41 PM

I'd like to see your full list and sideboard, spirit of the wretch. What exactly do you board out for the Wipe Away's in what matchups?

spirit of the wretch

10-24-2007, 02:46 PM

The list is pretty much standard:

6x Fetches
12x Islands

4x FoW
4x Remand
4x High Tide
4x Brainstorm
4x Reset
4x Impulse
3x Wish
3x Turnabout
3x Meditate
3x Twincast (simply amazing!)
2x Brainfreeze
2x Opt (2 was enough for me)
2x Flash of Insight

SB:
4 Wipe Away
4 Blue Elemental Blast (probably unnecessary in the current Meta)
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Brain Freeze
1 Echoing Truth
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Words of Wisdom
1 Rebuild

Edit: against Grow board out two Remand (too slow) and a Impulse for 3 Wipe Away.

Tacosnape

10-24-2007, 02:59 PM

Stax is simple, strategy wise. Play land, counter anything that keeps you from Cunning Wishing for Rebuild, let everything else through, including Chalice 1, Chalice 2, Trinispheres later than turn one, and Smokestack when you have three mana and the Wish in hand. Counter Smokestack is you can't Wish/Rebuild in the next turn or so, and counter Armageddons with extreme prejudice, obviously. Then cast Rebuild and win.

As for Cephalid Breakfast, this is very tough. In some ways it can be easier to actually go off, considering they almost deck themselves for you, but breaking through their defenses is very very difficult. I've had good luck with Spell Snare in the sideboard to a degree (Doesn't help if they drop a Vial and have the combo creatures in hand, though,) and if you're really worried about Worldly Tutor, Predict is an interesting card to try.

ClearSkies

10-24-2007, 10:15 PM

I havn't really played much Solidarity before, but how do Solidarity fight against hand disruption? Is that why it has declined over time as the deck to beat?

bigbear102

10-24-2007, 11:35 PM

Hand disruption doesn't really hurt Solidarity that much, unless it is backed by a quick clock. That is why Deadguy and Red Death have decent matches against it, also backed by their land destruction. Remand helped a lot in this regard, essentially time walking a turn 2 hymn.

The reason that Solidarity has declined so much is because of the increase in both aggro-control decks and fast combo. Solidarity can beat Thresh, but it is a very tough matchup, and it is being played more and more.

The real nail in the coffin was the rise of faster combo decks. They not only posed a problem with their speed, but people started packing even more combo hate, so Solidarity just couldn't keep up.

Tacosnape

10-25-2007, 12:15 AM

Decks like Lands!, on the other hand, are the best thing that can happen to Solidarity. But for now, with Threshold everywhere and Breakfast still strong, Solidarity's hurting.

What are thoughts on a white splash with maindecked Abeyances? Abeyance would seem to be a godsend against all of Solidarity's bad matchups, and it's a cantrip when it isn't needed.

MattH

10-25-2007, 01:26 AM

Aren't you just heading down that slippery slope towards being a bad TES then?

Although the possibility of some kind of transformational SB into scepter chant is...amusing.

Bahamuth

10-25-2007, 03:11 AM

I don't think Solidarity is a worse version of TES, because Solidarity has quite some matchups where it performs better than TES. Solidarity was built to beat control, and I think it still does that better than TES.

Why play Abeyance, if you can play Bound/Determinded? Isn't that card always better?

I like the 3 Twincast in the mainboard. I think I'm going to try that out.

Tacosnape

10-25-2007, 03:14 AM

Aren't you just heading down that slippery slope towards being a bad TES then?

I don't necessarily think so. You aren't sacrificing anything core to Solidarity other than the immunity to Wasteland to do this. If need be, Solidarity can play Abeyance as a normal cantrip while digging for what it needs, and Abeyance only helps reinforce the deck's complete dominance over the stack.

Although the possibility of some kind of transformational SB into scepter chant is...amusing.

This is a possibility I had not thought of, but I think "Amusing" would probably be where it starts and ends.

lebarion

10-25-2007, 10:01 AM

Why play Abeyance, if you can play Bound/Determinded? Isn't that card always better?

I think the advantage Abeyance has over Determined is that it is useful against faster combos.

Blaukreuz

10-25-2007, 10:44 AM

I don't think Solidarity is a worse version of TES, because Solidarity has quite some matchups where it performs better than TES. Solidarity was built to beat control, and I think it still does that better than TES.
Yeah, and probably Solidarity has the strongest lategame in Legacy.

Taurelin

10-25-2007, 10:45 AM

Why play Abeyance, if you can play Bound/Determinded? Isn't that card always better?

Bound/Determined takes away one of your neat tricks: Remanding one of your own spells, like Brain Freeze. Apart from that, Bound/Determined is only good in your own combo turn, while Abeyance buys you time early game to actually survive until then.

Tacosnape

10-25-2007, 12:20 PM

I think the advantage Abeyance has over Determined is that it is useful against faster combos.

It is exactly as Lebarion says. Abeyance improves the combo match where Bound//Determined does not. And speaking as the person who came up with Bound//Determined, its time, if it had one, has passed.

It is also an excellent play in response to an opponent's Abeyance, functioning essentially like Twincast in this regard.

Bahamuth

10-26-2007, 09:23 AM

Right, that's pretty convincing. So what about trying those 3 Abeyance in the 1 Twincast and 2 Peeks of the normal list?

3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
12x Island

4x FoW
4x Remand
4x High Tide
4x Brainstorm
4x Reset
4x Impulse
3x Wish
3x Turnabout
3x Meditate
3x Abeyance
2x Brainfreeze
2x Opt
2x Flash of Insight

SB:
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Brain Freeze
1 Echoing Truth
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Rebuild
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Twincast
5 ??

GreenOne

10-26-2007, 09:51 AM

So what about trying those 3 Abeyance in the 1 Twincast and 2 Peeks of the normal list?

3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
12x Island

I'll try some Tundras, they have nice sinergy with white cards. :tongue:

I'd try 2-3 Wipe Aways (good vs counterbalance and maybe vs Breakfast) and 2-3 Spell Snares in the side (good vs breakfast, countrbalance, chalice, Tes/Belcher) or maybe some Blue Blasts to deal with goblins, Tes, Belcher and red enchantments from Breakfast. It always depends on meta.

Bahamuth

10-26-2007, 10:45 AM

ClearSkies

10-26-2007, 12:05 PM

Hmm you have a point there on the Tundra's. I might consider playing them. :laugh:

Wouldn't I need something to board in for the Abeyances in matchups like any random aggro deck? I don't think the Wipe Away's and Spell Snares will do much better there right?

If it is just a random Aggro deck with no disruption, you can just win. Abeyance is still a cantrip card if the effect has no affect on the player.

Or board in stuff to slow them down maybe. (Like Wipe Away)

GreenOne

10-27-2007, 07:05 AM

Wouldn't I need something to board in for the Abeyances in matchups like any random aggro deck? I don't think the Wipe Away's and Spell Snares will do much better there right?

Are you talking of straight - aggro? I mean, other than goblins, does this thing exhist? :smile:
I guess it depends on the aggro.
vs goblins you do want Red Blasts or cheap bounce.
vs MGA I'd simply board some cheap bounce to punish them for their pump effects.
vs The Cure, I'd board the Spell Snares, as they hit all his good treats.
vs MBA I'd board Snares, as their scary creatures/disruptions are at 2 mana (confidant, hymn, shade)
Spell snare hits Tarmogoyf, that is a staple of aggro decks (look at my signature for more informations about that)

Usually non-goblin aggro is too slow / less disruptive than goblins, thus is a bye for this deck, as for any other combo deck.
What Aggro decks are you facing in your meta that give you troubles?

Tacosnape

10-27-2007, 12:07 PM

Considering most aggro decks run red, you can just board in Hydroblasts for Abeyances. Or Spell Snare, since most run Tarmogoyf too.

If they run Wasteland (And not counters) then you kind of have to board out Abeyances, because your goal is to stay away from your Tundra/Tundras.

kicks_422

10-27-2007, 06:58 PM

How has this deck been doing, for anyone who still plays it? I haven't seen it perform well in a while... Is it because it's pretty bad right now? Or is it because nobody's playing it in tournaments?

thefreakaccident

10-27-2007, 11:11 PM

No body plays solidarity because it is difficult to play; most people will play it a couple times and pilot it wrong staight into a fizzle... then they automatically assume it is a bad deck.

Solidarity has recently stopped playing here as far as I know.

Tacosnape

10-28-2007, 02:58 AM

I think the lack of results are more because absolutely nobody plays the deck. Hell, nobody played the deck hardly at all when it was a Deck to Beat. Even less play it now.

Solidarity is not a bad deck to play right now, though. In the proper hands, it has good matchups against everything that's not a faster combo deck or blue-based aggro-control. It can also be astonishingly resilient to black-based discard. What's more, nobody packs hate for it anymore. Leylines don't touch it, Creature removal doesn't touch it, and even though Gaddock Teeg is disruptive, but the deck can go off completely around him.

So essentially, it's a deck that currently has a bad matchup against tier 1 and a good matchup against practically everything else.

Also, as far as the white splash with maindecked Abeyances go? I did the unthinkable and cut Flash of Insight for temporary experimentation. And yes, I know how insanely ridiculously good Flash is and all the insanely ridiculous stuff it can do. It's also slow. ...And useless against Teeg, for whatever that's worth.

Bahamuth

10-28-2007, 04:41 AM

And? How did it work out for you? And why cut the Flash of Insights when you can simply cut the Peeks and Twincasts for the white splash?

I've played quite a lot with Solidarity now, and I think the matchup vs. Thresh isn't as bad as most people make it. The only real threathening card they play is still Meddling Mage, and it seems that that card is seeing less play.

What's left is just a deck that couples a clock with a bunch of counters. I belive that, with the right plays and sideboard, this deck should defiantely be able to defeat a deck like that.

I've done a lot of testing vs. TES as well, since a friend of mine owns and plays this deck, and I don't think that matchup is that bad either. Both Remand and FoW, and in game 2 and 3 eventually Spell Snare too, do a wonderful job on keeping him off kiling you before turn 4-5, and after those turns, you will generally be able to combo too. Now that TES has cut Xantid Swarm for Chant, the matchup has definately improved too.

I'm still playing this deck, and I will be playing it for a long time. Solidarity is still the most fun, powerfull and skill-dependant deck I've ever played, and as long as it stays at least a little competitive, I will play it.

Edit: On the other hand,I've never seen how this deck is very resillient vs. black discard. Discard paired with landdestruction for me is often enough to eventually leave me with just a single land and 2 cards in my hand. It will take me ages to recover from that...

lebarion

10-28-2007, 06:51 AM

On the other hand,I've never seen how this deck is very resillient vs. black discard. Discard paired with landdestruction for me is often enough to eventually leave me with just a single land and 2 cards in my hand. It will take me ages to recover from that...

I think Deadguy is very hard for Solidarity, but other decks that use discards are not that bad. I would even say that Deadguy without Hippie is not that bad, either.

I've been trying Solidarity in some small local tournaments, getting average results. I think I'm still learning to play the deck, though.
Yesterday I went 3-2 (win vs. Slivers, UGr *****, Fish, lost to two decks playing counterbalance-top :frown: )

diffy

10-28-2007, 07:38 AM

I've been trying Solidarity in some small local tournaments, getting average results. I think I'm still learning to play the deck, though.
Yesterday I went 3-2 (win vs. Slivers, UGr *****, Fish, lost to two decks playing counterbalance-top :frown: )

If you manage to consistantly beat Blue based aggro control decks, you can't really be all that bad with the deck as they are basically the worst matchups you can have... I remember to always anihilate Solidarity when I faced it while it was still present in our meta... oh, I played Uwb Hanni Fish and NQG(w).

On topic:

If you have trouble beating Counterbalance, you should play one Wipe Away in the sideboard. Most Counter-Top decks (NQG mainly) don't really play that many cmc3 spells so that you can basically bounce their Counterbalance undisrupted and go off next turn when they try to cast it again.

This is the sideboard I'd recomend:

// Sideboard
1 Meditate (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/76.html)
1 Stroke of Genius (http://magiccards.info/us/en/100.html)
1 Words of Wisdom (http://magiccards.info/od/en/114.html)
1 Brain Freeze (http://magiccards.info/sc/en/29.html)
1 Turnabout (http://magiccards.info/us/en/105.html)
1 Echoing Truth (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/21.html)
1 Wipe Away (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/94.html)
1 Rebuild (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/40.html)
3 Twincast (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/120.html)
4 Spell Snare (http://magiccards.info/di/en/33.html)

The Words of Wisdom are there to still be able to win at instant speed (force the opponent to draw a card) under Gaddock Teeg.
The 4 Spell Snares are there to be boarded in against NQG and Deadguy Ale.
Twincast is there for general utility.

You could also try out a newish version of Solidarity with a green splash mainly for sideboard Drop of Honey (http://magiccards.info/an/en/31.html) which are awesome against NQG buying a huge amount of time to find Cunning Wish -> Krosan Grip (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/202.html).
In that version you could also play 4 Quirion Dryad (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/287.html)s sideboard to switch into a Aggro-Control deck against decks that pack too much disruption.
That version would then replace 2 Islands with 2 Tropical Islands mainboard and would replace the 3 Twincasts, 4 Spell Snares, the Wipe Away and the Words of Wisdom with 4 Quirion Dryad, 4 Drop of Honey and 1 Krosan Grip sideboard.

kicks_422

10-28-2007, 08:30 AM

I think the lack of results are more because absolutely nobody plays the deck. Hell, nobody played the deck hardly at all when it was a Deck to Beat. Even less play it now.

Well, that's a shame since I think it's one of the most intricate decks ever built. It's a great sight to see how it plays out in the hands of a master of the deck.

And I guess it doesn't help that herbig is lurking in our mountains somewhere instead of thrashing with it.

Illissius

10-28-2007, 11:40 AM

Why are we using Rebuild instead of Hurkyl's Recall? Chalice?

ClearSkies

10-28-2007, 11:41 AM

Why are we using Rebuild instead of Hurkyl's Recall? Chalice?

I always thought it was because of Chalice, and it doesn't target players. With Trinisphere out, the cost is essentially the same. Also, it avoids Spellsnare.

Illissius

10-28-2007, 12:56 PM

Stax doesn't tend to play Misdirection, Ivory Mask, or Spell Snare.

entity

11-12-2007, 05:20 PM

This is the list i've tested a little lately, however i don't have enough time for proper testing, so any advices are welcome.

18 lands(islands, 6-7 fetches included)

4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Brainstorm
2 Peek
1 Opt
1 Stroke of Genius
3 Meditate
4 Cunning Wish
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
4 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
2 Flash of Insight

SB:

1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Words of Wisdom
1 Brain Freeze
1 Trickbind
1 Rebuild
1 Twincast
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away or Slaugter Pact
4 Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blast

Card choices:

Peek vs Opt vs Think Twice: still undecided, mainly because i don't know what metagame to expect.
Stroke MD: i really like to draw it when comboing off...not so much before that.
4 Wishes MD: thinking about lowering them to 3. What should i put into that slot?
SB:slaughter pact - kills meddling mage/gaddock teeg(not like he's a big problem anyway...) without using any mana.
Trickbind: still unsure about it vs Stifle. Stifle costs less, Trickbind is uncounterable and can't be responded to.

Any comments? :)

Tacosnape

11-12-2007, 05:41 PM

Why are we using Rebuild instead of Hurkyl's Recall? Chalice?

It is as you say, because of Chalice, and also because Trinisphere makes it cost the same. It's a single sideboard slot that makes Stax a good matchup where it would be a bad one otherwise. It also has Cycling, meaning it can also be boarded in for matches where you fear Chalices coming in from the sideboard, and then it can be cycled if you're wrong or if they don't draw them.

It also helps that Echoing Truth costs 2, meaning you can board in the Echoing Truth and have a solid out to Chalice-1 followed by Chalice-3.

For what it's worth, nine days ago I took 1st in a tournament with a straight blue Solidarity list loaded up with BEB and Spell Snare in the sideboard. I beat Ichorid, Burn, Train Wreck, and Truffle Shuffle, then Burn and Wreck again in top 4.

EDIT: Also, Opt >> Peek/Think Twice.

entity

11-12-2007, 05:50 PM

For what it's worth, nine days ago I took 1st in a tournament with a straight blue Solidarity list loaded up with BEB and Spell Snare in the sideboard. I beat Ichorid, Burn, Train Wreck, and Truffle Shuffle, then Burn and Wreck again in top 4.

What was your sideboard? I can't seem to find enough place for both blasts and spell snares...

throst54

11-12-2007, 05:56 PM

What did your SB look like?
Im intrested in seeing what u pulled to make room for the blasts and snares.

Also, have u tried playing Pact of Negation in your SB? Seems to me to be a good out while combo'ing out if you need a counterspell.

Tacosnape

11-12-2007, 06:12 PM

What was your sideboard? I can't seem to find enough place for both blasts and spell snares...

What did your SB look like?
Im intrested in seeing what u pulled to make room for the blasts and snares.

Also, have u tried playing Pact of Negation in your SB? Seems to me to be a good out while combo'ing out if you need a counterspell.

1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain Freeze
1 Twincast
3 Hydroblast
4 Spell Snare

No Pact, but I did run a Disrupting Shoal which I cut at the last second when I realized the metagame was almost devoid of blue.

I find Twincast to be weaker than Snare due to the fact that Remand gets around opposing Counterspells just as effectively as Twincast if you can afford to wait a turn or spend another mana. The time difference can be made up by Snare stopping annoying shit like Tarmogoyf, Chalice, Counterbalance, Mage, or whatever.

ClearSkies

11-12-2007, 07:28 PM

I find Twincast to be weaker than Snare due to the fact that Remand gets around opposing Counterspells just as effectively as Twincast if you can afford to wait a turn or spend another mana. The time difference can be made up by Snare stopping annoying shit like Tarmogoyf, Chalice, Counterbalance, Mage, or whatever.

I guess that means you didn't use 2-3x slots for MD Twincast. What did you used instead? (You didn't seem to like Peak or Think Twice either)

Tacosnape

11-12-2007, 11:28 PM

I guess that means you didn't use 2-3x slots for MD Twincast. What did you used instead? (You didn't seem to like Peak or Think Twice either)

4x Opt and either a single maindeck Twincast or a third Brain Freeze, I can't remember which (I think I ran the third Freeze.) I generally like Opt better than Peek as Opt digs a card deeper, and I generally like it better than Think Twice as the format tends to be faster nowadays and having a 1-drop to sculpt your hand is pretty vital.

entity

11-13-2007, 06:57 AM

No Chain of Vapor and Words of Wisdom SB? Why?
Also, how do you sideboard in combo/aggrocontrol/other matchups?

ClearSkies

11-13-2007, 02:14 PM

No Chain of Vapor and Words of Wisdom SB? Why?
Also, how do you sideboard in combo/aggrocontrol/other matchups?

I am guessing that Stroke of Genius in Main and SB acts as the expensive Words of Wisdom...

Blaukreuz

11-16-2007, 08:31 AM

Pro Player Oliver Oks piloted Solidarity to the 4th place at the sideevent of the Grand Prix Krakow (47 participants).

His Decklist: http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=12018

he said that he is training for legacy at worlds.

(another Pro Player Remi Fortier made 1st place with NQG/r)

Lukas Preuss

11-16-2007, 08:41 AM

Very good. I read Markus Metzmacher's article on pmtg.de and thought that it was pretty good. He wrote about some of the matches at GP Krakow, including a round 7 match between Oks (Solidarity) and Sukaitis (Ug Threshold), which Oks manages to win 2-1. Good stuff.

I think some of his minor card choices were quite odd (Words of Wisdom is unnecessary, Gaea's Blessing doesn't make sense), but it looks like a solid deck overall.

After a lot of thinking I'm under the impression once again, that Solidarity should be quite strong in the current metagame. It's basically a combo control deck that can play 12 counterspells post board (FoW, Remand, and Disrupt), which should be enough to force faster combo into the midgame and win from there. The Threshold matchup is quite nice, as well if they don't play Counterbalance, because Stifle is just a minor annoyance and Tarmogoyfs are seldom bigger than 3/4. If Oliver Oks wants to pilot Solidarity at Worlds, good luck to him!

Edit:
I thought I'd translate part of Markus' report, since it is actually quite interesting.

It's basically Markus Metzmacher walking around at GP Krakow, watching the Legacy players, and covering the event for www.planetmtg.de. Markus is no die-hard Legacy player, but he usually attends our Legacy events in Düsseldorf, playing some unusual decks. He concentrates much more on the other formats (propably the reason why he didn't play at the side event), but he has a solid grip on the Legacy format.

Markus sits down next to Oliver Oks when the third match of round 7 starts. They are 1-1, and the next match will determine who makes T8 (not that important, because there were no T8 playoffs).
While shuffling, Oliver is joking around on how he managed to win game 2, eventhough he should have lost. Tomas Sukaitis explains to him that he usually only plays against people that can't pilot Solidarity very well. He is not very familiar with the match or the format. Oliver: "I can't believe that I could steal the win in the last game".

Game 3 begins with Tomas playing a Nimble Mongoose, which beats Oliver down to 15. Then he casts Werebear. In the meantime, Oliver fetched once, played some hand refinement and knows about two FoWs in Tomas' hand thanks to Peek.
He tries to cast Cunning Wish, which meets a FoW (remove Ponder).
The next turn, Oliver tries to combo off in Tomas attack step, playing High Tide. It resolves, but Thomas tries to counter Meditate with FoW, to which Oliver responds with Disrupt. Thanks to High Tide, Tomas is able to pay 1, but Oliver finds FoW himself and manages to force his Meditate through. Unfortunately, Oliver only finds Turnabout and three useless cards, so he passes the turn.
Tomas uses Wasteland on his own lands to gain Threshold and starts to bash face. Oliver gets down to three life and the extra turns are called. He fetches (down to two life), and uses Turnabout on Tomas' creatures to stay alive for one more turn. Tomas resolves a Counterbalance.
Than, in the fourth extra turn, Oliver tries to combo off again. Counterbalance only reveals a land, so his High Tide resolves after he Disrupts it himself and pays the 1 mana to cantrip. He draws Reset, plays it, and follows up with Meditate. Appearently, Tomas doesn't hold any more Counterspells. Meditate finds Peek, Island, Force of Will and Reset. He casts Peek, finds Cunning Wish and manages to combo off savely now, including Stroking himself for 18. He then counts Tomas library - 42 cards. He casts some Brainstorms and other cantrips and then casts Brain Freeze with storm: 13 - exactly 42 cards. After everything resolves, there are 3 cards left in Thomas library. There is some trouble with the judge, until they realize that Tomas only put 39 cards into his graveyard (Here Markus' writes that eventhough the judges didn't suspect anything, he felt that Thomas "forgot" to mill the last three cards on purpose. Pretty shady).
Well, Oliver taps down Tomas' creatures with Turnabout and Tomas scoops it up.

Oliver 2-1 Tomas

Hummingbird TG

11-16-2007, 08:45 AM

deadlock

11-16-2007, 09:15 AM

Good to see some activity here.

I am thinking about cutting 1 Impulse and the lone Twincast for either 2 Disrupt or 2 Fact or Fiction.

The first one would strengthen the early game: It acts as solid turn one play along side with Opt (i run 4).

The second one would strengthen the mid/lategame, it refills your hand after a counterwar or whatever.
Another option would be to run 4 Meditate main and one Fact side.

What are your thoughts?

As a side note, the lone Echoing Truth maindeck in his list is quit good, because of its versatility, but my biggest concern is, that it doesnt replace itself.

matelml

11-16-2007, 09:33 AM

Three wishes is the best 4th maindeck Meditate I think.

Blaukreuz

11-16-2007, 10:34 AM

Solidarity, however, folds to black discard packing Hypnotic Specter. This says something: that if black with Specter gets played enough(which I believe it should, as Sui-Black is an easy deck to take to a tournament without testing, just like Boros was in Extended around the time of last Worlds, and see how many people played it! Also note that Sui Black is far cheaper than Boros in terms of $), Solidarity won't place well...

okay, but Suicide Black is no upper tier imho. Assumed that pro player have access to all cards, why should they play Sui Black?
Sure, maybe someone will play it, but i dont think that lots of Pros come with Sui Black on worlds.

deadlock

11-16-2007, 10:37 AM

My intention is not to have another Meditate effect while comboing, but a way to refill my hand after heavy discard, excessive FoWing or whatever without losing a whole turn. More like Thin Twice in some lists :smile:

Bahamuth

11-16-2007, 10:55 AM

deadlock

11-16-2007, 11:17 AM

I don't think FoF would be a good idea in this deck. First of all FoF costs 4 mana, which is probably too much to efficiently cast it when comboing. If you get the opportunity to cast in before combo (which won't be often), it's generally a bad card too since your opponent gets to see what cards you pick, thus being able to predict what other cards in your hand (for example, if you pick a pile with Reset while there's a Tide/Meditate in the other, your opponent knows you probably have the card you put into your graveyard already).

First off, FoF pitches to FOW and can be shuffled away with BS if you draw it too early.
Its there to represent a threat to control/aggro control PRE-combo (which happens to be a big weakness of this deck, because you cant draw many counters out of their hands, except with Tide+Remand).
As it can be a liability as you describe it, i wont happen very often that you draw all three key combo pieces at once. You cast it to gain card quantity, which can be filtered into card quality later on with BS.
On the other hand you can trick them into thinking that you lack a certain effect, be it draw, untap or whatever.
Which lead them to counter the certain effect and you simply cast your second one for example.

I didn't know Disrupt was good? I tought it had been removed from the board a long long time ago. Please explain.
I was looking for more Remand-like effects, meaning counter + cantrip, but Disrupt is definitely to narrow to grant it a maindeck slot.

I've been playing 3 Twincast mainboard for a while, in the place of 2 Peek. So far I've been liking it. It's very good vs. Thresh (we already knew that), it does well vs. the newer TES builds, since you can twincast Chant/Abeyance to counter them (Twincasting Infernal Tutor is nice too) and it does well vs. Sui Black or any other black decks with splashes, since you can slow them down (even more) by Twincasting a Hymn/Duress/Sinkhole/Whatever.

My biggest concern with Twincast is, that it doesnt stop key threats like Bob, Counterbalance or Goyf and it doesnt replace itself.
Your thoughts?

Bahamuth

11-16-2007, 11:35 AM

First off, FoF pitches to FOW and can be shuffled away with BS if you draw it too early.

Sure. But that argument could be made for playing Vizzerdix in this deck as well. A 6/6 can be devastating, it pitches to FoW and if you draw it too early, you can shuffle it away with Brainstorm.

Its there to represent a threat to control/aggro control PRE-combo (which happens to be a big weakness of this deck, because you cant draw many counters out of their hands, except with Tide+Remand) As it can be a liability as you describe it, i wont happen very often that you draw all three key combo pieces at once. You cast it to gain card quantity, which can be filtered into card quality later on with BS.
On the other hand you can trick them into thinking that you lack a certain effect, be it draw, untap or whatever.
Which lead them to counter the certain effect and you simply cast your second one for example.

My point is, there is a huge difference between knowing absolutely no cards in your opponents hand and knowing a few. The only information your opponent has is the number of cards in your hand. That information is far from enough, since this deck can win with 3 cards in it's hand and 4 land too.

Control is definitely NOT the weak point of Solidarity. Also aggro-control can be troublesome, but that's not because of the counters. The thing that matters is the combination of counters, beats (meaning you're on a clock), and troublesome permanents like Counterbalance and Meddling Mage. Now a way to fight this is cardadvantage, true, but you don't want to pay 4 for that. FoF would be the ultimate card to Daze, and will usually come too late. Also, my argument above is very important here.

My biggest concern with Twincast is, that it doesnt stop key threats like Bob, Counterbalance or Goyf and it doesnt replace itself.
Your thoughts?

FoF and Peek don't deal with Bob balance and Goyf either. This card is here for a different reason. Twincast has amazing versitability (not sure about spelling). It can act as a second Tide or Reset, thus speeding up your combo, making it quite interesting vs. fast aggro like Goblins. Next to that, it does 'counter' some things, like obviously other counters, but also, as I mentioned, Chant and Abeyance.

Twincast doesn't replace itself, but cast on the right spell, it will never generate carddisadvantage. Cast it on a Duress, a counter, an opponent's draw spell etc. It's good in so many situations...

ClearSkies

11-16-2007, 05:56 PM

Don't forget that Twincast on Ill-gotten Gains allows the Solidarity player to go infinite with Twincast, High Tide, and any card that grabs win condition.

HdH_Cthulhu

11-17-2007, 12:08 PM

Don't forget that Twincast on Ill-gotten Gains allows the Solidarity player to go infinite with Twincast, High Tide, and any card that grabs win condition.

That is awesome!

But i have problems with Twincast, it is a card that could do everything, but it does nothing alone...
And sometimes i have a lot of untap and hightide stuff but now draw spell, or a lot of mediates and brainstorms but no reset...

Tacosnape

11-17-2007, 01:49 PM

That is awesome!

But i have problems with Twincast, it is a card that could do everything, but it does nothing alone...
And sometimes i have a lot of untap and hightide stuff but now draw spell, or a lot of mediates and brainstorms but no reset...

If you have a hand consisting of multiple Tides, Meditates, and Opts/Brainstorms, you should still have a fair chance at going off, as the draw spells are likely to dig you into an untap spell. Twincast can copy the Meditate here if you've got the mana on your initial burst to give you a huge dig for the untapper.

If you have the Tides and the Resets but no draw (Which is incredibly rare in a 4-Opt build) Twincast can sometimes copy an opponent's draw spell. I've gone off with these hands in response to Night's Whisper or some such nonsense fairly often.

lebarion

11-17-2007, 03:59 PM

entity

11-18-2007, 05:27 PM

For those who use Spell Snare in the sideboard, what you side out to put them in? Against *****, I usually take out 1 Twincast, 1 Remand and 2 Flash of Insight, but I'm sure these are not the best choices...

(actually, I have hard times selecting what to side out in almost every match... :confused: )

Same here...Though i can't imagine taking out flash of insight, except against GY hate(like iggy pop). It's too good, imho.

I finished with 6 points in 5 rounds at baltic legacy champs in Talinn. Sadly i wasn't able to playtest a deck enough and get all the cards needed(no opts...yuck). Might write a report later including all the fun stuff(car crash etc. :D ), if i'll find enought time. I won against SuiBlack and burn, lost to UG and UGr thresh(not that i made mistakes...i was very manascrewed, especially against UG - 3 lands game1 and 2 lands g2) and dredge with LED's. At least i haven't done any mistakes that would've costed me game.

is there anything we can do against dredge with LED's? Seems like we're too slow and don't have enough disruption.

Bahamuth

11-19-2007, 01:08 AM

Is there anything we can do against dredge with LED's? Seems like we're too slow and don't have enough disruption.

We are indeed. I've done some testing, and you can definitely win this, but you HAVE to Force their discard outlet. If you manage to do that, they'll be stuck for ages with a full hand. Also, when I was running 3 Echoing Truth SB I just boarded them in to bounce their tokens and get myself 1 or 2 extra turns.

By the way, I'm not sure if it's good to board in Spell Snare at all vs. Thresh. Usually tough, the Remands should come out, since they are too slow.

GreenOne

11-19-2007, 06:01 AM

is there anything we can do against dredge with LED's? Seems like we're too slow and don't have enough disruption.

I had some games with a Uw version of solidarity (splashing for abeyance MD and Orim SB) and i won 3-0. Their deck is quite unstable. Forcing a single spell can be game-breaking, as could be ETruthing their tokens. Also, they mill theirselves quite a bit, so comboing for 20 cards in resp to a deep analysis or a cephalid activation is usally enough. However, I don't know how's the matchup without abeyances and chants as they help a lot in buying some time.

Tacosnape

11-19-2007, 03:19 PM

I had some games with a Uw version of solidarity (splashing for abeyance MD and Orim SB) and i won 3-0. Their deck is quite unstable. Forcing a single spell can be game-breaking, as could be ETruthing their tokens. Also, they mill theirselves quite a bit, so comboing for 20 cards in resp to a deep analysis or a cephalid activation is usally enough. However, I don't know how's the matchup without abeyances and chants as they help a lot in buying some time.

The matchup's still pretty manageable without white. The biggest difference maker is how fast they can throw flashbacked Cabal Therapies at you. The chief Ichorid player in our metagame other than me doesn't maindeck Therapy (?) making this match a complete pushover.

I do agree with Bahamuth in that you have to Force very aggressively and force their chief discard outlet.

marit

11-19-2007, 03:42 PM

Going back to what libarion said, what do you normally side out to put in spell snares? I usually go something like -2 opt, -1 flash, -1 remand/Twincast, but I'm sure there are better things.

siradnaan

11-19-2007, 03:55 PM

im building this deck...and right now i onlyhave 3 turnabout and 3 reset...i was looking for a replacement and came about frantic search...
what does everyone think about that?

Blaukreuz

11-19-2007, 03:59 PM

frantic search is one of the best things that could happen to solidarity. But it's banned :wink:

siradnaan

11-19-2007, 04:15 PM

anyone have any suggestions as to what i can use as a substitute for a fourth reset

ClearSkies

11-19-2007, 04:46 PM

anyone have any suggestions as to what i can use as a substitute for a fourth reset

Find a 4th Turnabout? Maybe use some card that search for reset.

There was an Impulse like card that only puts instants in your hand. I forgot what it is called. Anyone know? (I can't seem to find it)

Media314r8

11-19-2007, 04:51 PM

card is Peer Through Depths fro Champion of Kamagawa.

1U
Reveal the top five of your library, youmay choose an instant or a sorcerry from thoose and put it in your hand, rest go on the bottom in whatever order you want.

(strictly worse than impulse unless your backup plan is to cheat out

The Unspeakable 6UUU
Fyling, Trample
whenever The Unspeakable deals combat damage to a player, you may return an arcane spell to your hand.

I think that would be funny as hell to see a high tide player nab that guy with the three arcane instants when he fizzled with the brain freeze plan.

Play nice, please. Possible flame deleted.

-PR

Bahamuth

11-20-2007, 01:02 AM

By the way, and I might be wrong, but aren't we still waiting for this 'secret tech' from Gearheart about which he said he wanted to test it first? It's been a month or two already....

GreenOne

11-20-2007, 03:29 AM

By the way, and I might be wrong, but aren't we still waiting for this 'secret tech' from Gearheart about which he said he wanted to test it first? It's been a month or two already....

Yeah, come on Master! Enlighten us with your awesommess!
I'm a big fan of him, It was a pleasure to have my Tides signed by the Stack Pimp in person. Still in search of a natural size statue of him to put on my bedside.

deadlock

11-20-2007, 10:56 AM

Ok, sorry for the long delay between this and my last post.
@Bahamuth: Your brought up some good points for FoF being supoptimal, thanks for elaborating.

For those who use Spell Snare in the sideboard, what you side out to put them in? Against *****, I usually take out 1 Twincast, 1 Remand and 2 Flash of Insight, but I'm sure these are not the best choices...

First of i wouldnt side out Flash ever, even against really fast decks. (TES and the like may be an exception). The first reason is that it turns off your Brainfreezes being usable as a draw spell, which is important in close matches. In these games it is considered as too slow, but i think the Brainfreeze "trick" is a integral part of the deck that shouldnt be taken away.
The second reason is that it may be the only spell (except Think Twice) that can generate card advantage pre combo without a drawback. More important expecially against (aggro-)controll is that it acts as a additional card once in your gy while going off.

Remand as i see it is one of the best cards in here, i only side it out in matches where it is too slow and Twincast i dunno, i think its pretty decent against Threshold besides i have my own problems with this card as mentioned.

My sb-plan against Thresh depends on if and if yes how many Wipe Away i have to side in. To have one in the sb as a Wish target is a nobrainer with all the Counterbalance fuck goin on. Has somebody tested to side in 2-3 WA against Thresh?
Without it and the 4 Snares only i would start with:
-2 Opt
-2 FoW or -1 FoW and -1 Impulse
for obvious CA reasons. -1 Twincast could be justifyable too.

Could someone tell us his expierence with the white splash for Abeyance and Chant eventually if its worthwhile tradeoff? (=the vulnerability against Wasteland). Do you play other white cards, STP for example?

solidarity!

11-20-2007, 04:56 PM

I think againt the ******** matchup i would sideboard something along the lines of this

main -1 brain freeze -1 turnabout -4 remand

in 4 spell snare 1 or more wipe away (and keep one in your sideboard) and plus 1 or more twincast if you actually have those in your sideboard

Normally you would side out remand for snares but maybe letting 4 remand stay could be pretty neat,but then again maybe you can side them out because ******** has a very low curve.

smoky squirrel

11-21-2007, 03:47 AM

No no, you want to side in Brain Freeze... Against ******** you cannot hope to go off for a whole lot, since they will counter your key spells like Meditate. Instead you want to go off with a Brain Freeze in hand and let them counter everything so you can Brain Freeze for a small amount. You win this matchup when doing small bursts of milling, so you need more Brain Freeze. Al in all, it is a difficult matchup.

solidarity!

11-21-2007, 04:18 AM

I remember that with brain freeze pulling things off like that.

I don't think it is really needed and mostly when you play again ******** you will be tapped out after a counter war mostly,the freeze plan is only good when you have 2 freezes,and you need your draw spells to find meditates and high tides etc etc.i mostly win the matchup by just out countering them and countering COUNTERBALANCE or bouncing it.brain freezes are mostly dead draws at least from my experience so just i just side one out i can always find one.

most people counter high tides not meditates or something like that.

and youll always find a brain freeze i mostly pitch it to fow.

smoky squirrel

11-21-2007, 06:43 AM

******** countering High Tide? Then you are very lucky playing those players you know. High Tide is no threat at all for ********, they benefit from it... They will counter your draw however. This way, you never could outcounter them, since they have more counters than you do, plus they can preserve them since they dont need to counter anything until you go off.

Let us say that you have 4 Brain Freezes main. You are likely to draw them during your setups. Then you go off, or pretend to. If they let you, you win. If they start countering here and there, let them, just continue until you play your Brain Freeze. It is not unusual to have build a storm of 7 or 8, thanks to their counters.

Honestly, that is the only way I was able to pull off wins from (a well played) ********. Do any of the other solidarity players have an opinion on this?

GreenOne

11-21-2007, 07:09 AM

Honestly, that is the only way I was able to pull off wins from (a well played) ********. Do any of the other solidarity players have an opinion on this?

I never won matches against thresh with 2xfreeze, but I won many matches against them. It's usually about reading the opponent: just search for the combo pieces you know he's countering. He's not going to have 2 x fow in hand all the time. If you know they counter your tide, just play it as a test and remand it. If they counter your draw spells you can search for a flash of insight, or make tons of mana first, then cast a meditate and remand-replay it. Twincast also helps a lot in winning the counter wars, givin you more counters than they do.

The real scary thing about thresh are not counters, but counters+discard (in UGb), mage (UGw), and, among all, Counterbalance.

Judge_Julez

11-21-2007, 08:02 AM

card = Peer Through Depths (from Champion of Kamagawa.)

1U
Reveal the top five of your library, youmay choose an instant or a sorcerry from thoose and put it in your hand, rest go on the bottom in whatever order you want.

I agree. This card is a sleeping 'bomb' in Extended. Post-rotation Extended will see Ponder & Peer Through Depths become the new Brainstorm + Impulse.

As for this deck, I think it is as good as an Impulse.

entity

11-21-2007, 09:02 AM

It's worse than impulse. Solidarity plays only 18 lands, and impulse lets you get one when needed - peer doesn't.

The Marco

11-21-2007, 11:11 AM

But it digs for one more card!

Bahamuth

11-21-2007, 11:17 AM

Please.....This discussion has been held thousands of times in the past pages. Peer Trough Depths is worse than Impulse and that's why everyone plays Impulse. Impulse is too often used to find land to replace it with Peer.

solidarity!

11-21-2007, 12:04 PM

If you find a ******** player that does not counter high tide then your eyes go big and say thank god!

mostly ******** has 3 counters you can play around it with some smart plays yes there are alot of ways!

So the brain freeze plan is really not needed brain freeze just cost more slots and dead draws(at least for me it is mostly a dead draw except if you combo off).

Taurelin

11-21-2007, 12:04 PM

The only serious lists using Peer that I have seen are those that play 4x Meditate main. They sometimes have a single Peer in the SB as a wish target, so that you can grab a "draw"-spell mid-combo if you need one. Pre-combo, like you all said, Impulse is always superior.

honz

11-21-2007, 04:51 PM

Has anyone tried out the green splash. I have seen it mentioned a couple of times, but i have never actually seen anyone do any serious testing with it. I think drop of honey, qurion dryad, and krosan grip would really help some of the problematic MUs.

Thresh, being one major concern, is severly slowed by drop of honey, and grip. If it is white thresh, they would board out the swords, allowing dryad to come in and sweep up. Dryad quickly goes out of bolt range, whether or not red thresh keep their bolts in. Same for ghastly demise.

I think landstill is another place you can gain an edge by switching into dryad mode. Most the time, they will have boarded out most their creature hate, leaving them wide open to dryad beats.

I was just wondering, if anyone has persued this train of thought at all.

Atwa

11-21-2007, 05:14 PM

That plan reminds me of a dutch guy who played a MUC deck in Vintage.

After game 1 (when having a bad matchup), the guy sided in:
- 4 Oath of Druids
- 4 Forbidden Orchard
- 1 Akroma
- 1 Spirit of the Night
- 1 Gaea's Blessing
- 2 Tropical Island

It won him the tournament.

I do think this can work, especially when every deck in Legacy which plays creature removal will side it out for all sorts of combohate. The only thing you have to think of: will the hate also stop your transformational sideboard?

Cards like Trinisphere, Chalice and Sphere of Resistence still hurt you. Which cards do you want to side out? I am thinking that Reset will be the first to go (creatures aren't cast that easy in your opponents turn), but which other cards do you suggest cutting?

Pinder

11-21-2007, 05:21 PM

The only thing you have to think of: will the hate also stop your transformational sideboard?

Maybe, but a better question would be 'Isn't Oath of Druids banned in Legacy'?

Wallace

11-21-2007, 05:27 PM

Maybe, but a better question would be 'Isn't Oath of Druids banned in Legacy'?

Lets see...

Legacy Banned List:

Amulet of Quoz
Ancestral Recall
Balance
Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Lotus
Black Vise
Bronze Tablet
Channel
Chaos Orb
Contract from Below
Darkpact
Demonic Attorney
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor
Dream Halls
Earthcraft
Entomb
Falling Star
Fastbond
Flash
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Grim Monolith
Gush
Hermit Druid
Illusionary Mask
Imperial Seal
Jeweled Bird
Land Tax
Library of Alexandria
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Mana Vault
Memory Jar
Metalworker
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Mishra's Workshop
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Necropotence
Oath of Druids
Rebirth
Shahrazad
Skullclamp
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Tempest Efreet
Time Spiral
Time Walk
Timetwister
Timmerian Fiends
Tinker
Tolarian Academ
Vampiric Tutor
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Worldgorger Dragon
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will

yup it is...

Sanguine Voyeur

11-21-2007, 05:28 PM

That plan reminds me of a dutch guy who played a MUC deck in Vintage.Reading comprehension FTW?

honz

11-21-2007, 05:37 PM

The thing is, a normal SB looks something like:
6-8 utility (rebuild, turn, meditate, pact, stroke, freeze...etc)
X Spell snare
X Hydroblast
X Twincast

With the green splash, you loose twincast, snares, hydroblasts, and wipe away. Of those cards you loose, only snare is decent against stax/thresh (chalice at 1, balance). You do gain grips, which are useful. You could probly make room for snares, if you really wanted them...

I think the first thing to board out, are the wishes (unless playing against stax). You could probly board out twincasts / remands, depending on the MU. Brain freezes are another likely contender. As long as you keep your cantrips, i think you should be alright.

Pinder

11-21-2007, 05:38 PM

Ah, maybe when he said 'I think this will work', he was talking about Dryad in Legacy, not Oath. I suppose Oath was just an example.

Back on topic, I actually splashed green for Bound/Determined in the wishboard once at my local, as well as Dryad. I beat the crap out of a friend who had sided out all of his removal by dropping Dryad on turn 2. It hit the table almost as hard as his jaw. I proceeded to mini-combo at the end of his next turn and beat down with an unstoppable 7/7 for the win.

Tacosnape

11-22-2007, 03:11 AM

Back on topic, I actually splashed green for Bound/Determined in the wishboard once at my local, as well as Dryad. I beat the crap out of a friend who had sided out all of his removal by dropping Dryad on turn 2. It hit the table almost as hard as his jaw. I proceeded to mini-combo at the end of his next turn and beat down with an unstoppable 7/7 for the win.

I originally loved this idea as well, until I quickly realized everything turned into a guessing game on game three as to whether or not they brought removal back in and whether or not you should leave your Dryads in. Nonetheless, the Dryad trick is ridiculously awesome when it works.

With the green splash, you loose twincast, snares, hydroblasts, and wipe away. Of those cards you loose, only snare is decent against stax/thresh (chalice at 1, balance). You do gain grips, which are useful. You could probly make room for snares, if you really wanted them...

You don't really lose -all- of these. More realistically you just reduce your slots for it. I kept Hydroblast to make sure I don't slide in my good matchups (Goblins is better than ever since it doesn't pack Solidarity hate, and you'll need them to race Goyf Sligh.) Bound//Determined was great when everyone played Chalice, but not so much now. Counterbalance is the new Chalice, and considering it's almost impossible to get one to resolve under a Counterbalance, this can be a problem.

Jade

11-22-2007, 01:33 PM

Did you guys ever test careful consideration?

I thought it could be quite nice as a 4th MD meditate, as it draws you 4 cards for 4 and midcombo you can likely discard 3 land cards for it. Did the card ever come up?

I definately gonna test it as 1 or 2-of.

honz

11-22-2007, 02:34 PM

I quickly realized everything turned into a guessing game on game three as to whether or not they brought removal back in and whether or not you should leave your Dryads in.

I have noticed this as well. I think the best way to look at things is (if they saw the dryad) they are forced to bring in some creature hate. Since your counterwall is probly not big enough to protect your dryads, your best option is to take them back out. That way, you maximize their dead cards. I see no reason to actually keep the dryads in game 3; for all your opponenet knows, you had the dryads MD the whole time.

The thought is to have a board of 4 drop of honey, 4 dryads; this leaves almost no extra room. Drop of honey can severly slow some of your problematic MUs (confidant, thresh, most aggro-control / aggro). You might also try wee dragonauts, with a red splash, but red doesnt give you much other than dragonauts. Any thoughts on bound/determined in the board?

Careful considertaion is just a bad version of fact or fiction. And do we run fact or fiction? I would play thirst over careful consideration as well.

Bahamuth

11-22-2007, 03:17 PM

I've been testing the Thresh matchup today quite a lot. I found myself having too few land quite often. Has anyone else had this experience? Would it maybe be an idea to add another land?

Also, how does everyone sideboard vs. Thresh?

entity

11-22-2007, 04:35 PM

Well, red would also give Urza's Rage as an alternate win condition(rage plus twincast - red tide). Might be worth a try...but then again, i really dislike making a deck vulnerable to wasteland.

Jade

11-23-2007, 12:51 PM

Careful considertaion is just a bad version of fact or fiction. And do we run fact or fiction? I would play thirst over careful consideration as well.

I would run Careful consideration over fact as you'll get 4 cards instead of probably 3 and midgame the discard should not hurt that much. Allthough I think you're right with thirst > consideration. I'll probably go with + 1 twincast, going down to 2 cunning wish.

Jak

11-26-2007, 08:10 PM

I just bought Solidarity, so obviously I need help playing it. I playtested it in the past and loved to play with it. Sadly, Resets cost $40 bucks each. I got the deck cheap with most of it Japanese (Fetches, Wishes, Twincasts, etc.). So props to me. Here is the build I plan on using.

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
12 Island

4 Brainstorm
2 Opt
2 Peek
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
2 Flash of Insight
3 Cunning Wish

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
2 Brainfreeze

4 Force of Will
4 Remand
1 Twincast

SB
1 Brainfreeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
3 Hydroblast
1 Twincast
4 Spell Snare

Now, my meta is going crazy with aggro-control. I want and think I need to play the 4 Twincasts. I can not, however, because Spell Snare deserves the spot. Counters a lot of scary crap. This is probably not the best meta to go around playing this deck, but I like a challenge and can probably beat the random crap like burn or aggro at my weekly tourneys.

Question:
What is the usualy boarding strategy for Thresh and Counterslivers?

Volt

11-26-2007, 08:31 PM

Question:
What is the usualy boarding strategy for Thresh and Counterslivers?

Doesn't matter. Unless you get incredibly busted hands, you just lose.

Btw, Nick is a really good Solidarity player. I've seen him splash green for Quirion Dryads out of the board, and white for Porphyry Nodes. You could talk to him for further tips.

Jak

11-26-2007, 08:41 PM

Doesn't matter. Unless you get incredibly busted hands, you just lose.

Btw, Nick is a really good Solidarity player. You could talk to him.

:frown: Pray for the busted.

I guess there is really no hope. Does he have a new account or will it be Fridays?

Edit- I just read the last part. Yeah, I have seen the splash for Bound/Deterined and Dryad. I would try that, but I haven't got the Trops. I may splash white and throw in 2 plains for 4 chants or abeyances or something. Nodes looks promising. Killing Mage and the rest of thresh. Maybe Nodes and Abeyance SB?

Nihil Credo

11-26-2007, 09:08 PM

Doesn't matter. Unless you get incredibly busted hands, you just lose.
That's an overestimation. I'd say those matchups are about 2/3 in favour of the blue aggro-control decks, if we consider the current builds with maindeck Counterbalance; a bit better if they don't have that damned enchantment (thankfully no-one maindecks Meddling Mage anymore). You're still putting up quite a fight, and I'm sure every experienced player on this thread has beaten his fair share of Threshold decks.

For comparison, if I were to pilot Solidarity in a tournament, I'd fear a Red Death or Macey Rock style deck more than Threshold. Lots of discard backed up by quick fatties isn't fun at all.

Volt

11-26-2007, 09:15 PM

That's an overestimation. I'd say those matchups are about 2/3 in favour of the blue aggro-control decks, if we consider the current builds with maindeck Counterbalance; a bit better if they don't have that damned enchantment (thankfully no-one maindecks Meddling Mage anymore). You're still putting up quite a fight, and I'm sure every experienced player on this thread has beaten his fair share of Threshold decks.

For comparison, if I were to pilot Solidarity in a tournament, I'd fear a Red Death or Macey Rock style deck more than Threshold. Lots of discard backed up by quick fatties isn't fun at all.

Yeah, I probably overstated a bit. I'd say it's about 3-1 in favor of CounterTop aggro-control.

honz

11-26-2007, 10:31 PM

If you are in a thresh infested meta, the best advice would be play a different deck. If you still want to play solidarity, then you really need a splash. Green gives alot. Grips > counterbalance, and if you manage to resolve a determined (unlikely), you are golden. Dryads and drop of honey from the board probly swing things your way.

White gives chants and abeyance. Proph nodes as well. I would say green is better, if only because of grip and bound/determined.

Drop of honey has not been working out for me, at all. It is just too slow, only activating during my upkeep. All thresh needs to do is play 1 creature a turn, for 4 turns, while it bashes with a goyf. Or just let the board clear, and drop die, then resume the face bashing. Faster aggro is just too fast. Suicide black, gobbos, sligh, RG beats, WW can all easily play 1 creature a turn, and bash with numerous beats.

Jak

11-27-2007, 01:14 AM

How would one fit Quirion Dryad, Bound/Determined, Krosan Grip, and Drop of Honey in. I am interested in the green splash.

deviant

11-27-2007, 02:12 PM

Or play the sorcery speed version? It has a good matchup against *****. (And I am referring to the version playing meddling mages maindeck.) In addittion, i find goblins to be almost bye to it :cool:
Downside, or at least one of them, is almost imminent folding to landstill in game 1.
This, however, is not the correct thread to spring tide talk. Just a proposition, 'cause the two decks are quite similar :smile:

Mehioch

12-10-2007, 04:15 AM

This is probably a bad idea, but what about:
4 Quicken + 4 Merchant scroll in this deck?

Merchant scroll for setup before combo and Quicken to cantrip into instant speed scroll while comboing.

arsenalpow

12-11-2007, 09:13 AM

You can suggest merchant scroll and quicken but what do you cut for those 8 slots, the decklist is pretty tight already

smoky squirrel

12-12-2007, 05:37 AM

In the current metagame, what is the suggested sideboard and boarding plan?
Currently, my sideboard is:
4 Disrupt/Spell Snare
4 Wipe Away
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius

I play the 3 Twincast main-version, mono blue. I am still not sure if I should use Disrupt or Spell Snare

Lukas Preuss

12-12-2007, 06:30 AM

I tested a version of "Quicker Solidarity" already. Merchant Scroll is actually quite good, but it is really not worth it, because you usually find all the combo pieces you need by turn 4 anyways. It made the combo more inconsistent, because in practice, it happens too often that Merchant Scroll is a dead card during the midcombo, because you cast Quicken in the beginning to find land and don't draw one afterwards.

Bahamuth

12-12-2007, 07:10 AM

smoky squirrel

12-12-2007, 08:20 AM

Out go the 4 Remand, in go the 4 Spell Snare or Disrupt. If they play counter-top, 4 various cards for the Wipe Aways, or somewhat less. The Wipe Aways are there against decks that play Chalice, or other disruptive permanents.

Elfrago

12-12-2007, 11:15 AM

4 Wipe Away seems too much to me too. Probably 3 of them is fine.

Shimster

12-12-2007, 03:09 PM

I am currently testing the following sideboard:

4 Disrupt
4 Spell Snare
1 Brain Freeze
1 Peer through Depths
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away

Since there are no Goblins around, I cut the Hydroblasts and run a playset of Disrupt. These help to fight through discard-packing decks like Suicide Black (Dark Ritual, Sinkhole, Hymn to Tourach) and Deadguy Ale (Vindicate). I usually side out 4 FoW on the play (very risky, indeed) and 4 1cc cantrips (e.g. 2/2 Opt/Peek) for 4 Disrupt and 4 Spell Snare in this MU. In addition to that, the capability of 16 counters postboard helps a lot against fast combo, too.

I play one copy of Peer through Depths because I play 4 Meditate MD. Again, I would never ever side out Remands against Aggro/Controlish decks. Dominating the stack is the way to win these games. :eek:

@ Lukas: Are you going to play Solidarity in Iserlohn or Düsseldorf next year?

APriestOfGix

12-14-2007, 02:11 PM

what is the standard list?

i see the board is metagameable.

what would you play in a thresh heavy meta?

or would breakfast be the better deck in that kinda meta?

lebarion

12-14-2007, 02:48 PM

what is the standard list?

i see the board is metagameable.

what would you play in a thresh heavy meta?

or would breakfast be the better deck in that kinda meta?

You can find a standard list here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=94207&postcount=907).

This deck has a poor matchup against Thresh, and this is probably the main reason it is not played much anymore (the other reasons I remember now are faster combos - Belcher, Cephalid, etc - , and counterbalance popping everywhere).

Shimster

12-14-2007, 02:48 PM

what is the standard list?
I wouldn't say that there is a standard list. I would agree on some core cards, though.

18 lands, 6 to 8 of them being fetchlands
4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
2 Flash of Insight
4 Force of Will
3 Remand

The 16 variable slots can be filled up with something like

8 1cc cantrips
4 2cc cantrips
4 utility cards (Twincast, 4th Remand, 4th Meditate, maindeck bounce).

what would you play in a thresh heavy meta?
You have to keep in mind that bluebased aggro/control decks like Thresh or Fish are very demanding matchups. Nevertheless, I would suggest a 4th Remand and 3 Twincast in the utility slots to fight through their counterwall.

or would breakfast be the better deck in that kinda meta?
You can't really compare Solidarity with Breakfast. While Breakfast is able to change its role from combo to beatgoyfdown, Solidarity has to stick to its combo part. Thus Solidarity is much more affected by disruption. On the other hand, Breakfast can be shut down by graveyardhate. :laugh:

/Edit:

This deck has a poor matchup against *****, and this is probably the main reason it is not played much anymore.
The main reason of Solidarity's decline isn't Thresh, but the rise of fastcombo like Ichorid or TES.

Tacosnape

12-14-2007, 03:32 PM

I play one copy of Peer through Depths because I play 4 Meditate MD.

I've actually been liking 3 Peer Through Depths maindeck. I went radical and cut Flash of Insight to test them, as Flash seems to be just a bit too slow nowadays in a format where I rarely get that cherished fifth and sixth turn to set up just a little more effectively. I love FoI, but it doesn't help me get my combo in hand by turn four with backup. I'd rather have a slightly higher chance of fizzling mid combo than lose because my hand sucked when the lethal Goyf swung for the kill. I do still keep a Flash of Insight in sideboard, however.

Peer has done pretty well for me so far. I hate that it can't grab lands, but it lets me use Opt and Impulse to snatch lands with less reservations, and Peer's great at snagging what I need. I hate that it gives my opponent information as to what I'm lacking in my combo, but so does an EOT Cunning Wish on turn three, so shrug. The only difference is that in the case of things like Cabal Therapy, I might be able to go off after the EOT Wish before Therapy resolves, whereas it's less likely with an EOT turn 2 Peer.

This is negligible, however, as I play Peer as a third priority behind Impulse and Remand, as Peer is better mid-combo than either one, and Remand and Impulse are better pre-combo.

I also tried the Peer sideboard, much like you, because I was maindecking the four Meditates. I found this to be a pretty decent solution as well.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I haven't found Ichorid to be all that unwinnable. I'm 2-0 against it in tournament play, and my testing's put it about even, varying heavily on how explosive their draw is and how many Therapies hit me in the face. The bright side of the match is that it takes very little steam to Freeze them into oblivion. (Cephalid Breakfast is probably another matter.)

Bahamuth

12-14-2007, 03:46 PM

I wouldn't say that there is a standard list. I would agree on some core cards, though.

18 lands, 6 to 8 of them being fetchlands
4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
2 Flash of Insight
4 Force of Will
3 Remand

The 16 variable slots can be filled up with something like

8 1cc cantrips
4 2cc cantrips
4 utility cards (Twincast, 4th Remand, 4th Meditate, maindeck bounce).

I'll have to disagree here. There are only a very few slots in the deck that are actually debateable. For instance, you should always play 4 Brainstorm and 4 Impulse. I don't see any reason to not play 4 Remand either, since the card has two very important functions in this deck. My standart list is this:

12 Island (what kind of island do you use? Mine are Unhinged)
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
2 Flash of Insight (Taco's post made me doubt this a little tough)
2 Brain Freeze (you should always play 2. 2 is the right number)
4 Force of Will
4 Remand
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
3 Cunning Wish
2 Opt

This leaves 3 slots open. I think at least 2 Opts are needed to keep the deck fast enough. Not running these will occasionally lead to manascrew, which instantly means a loss.

I'm not sure about what to play in those 3 slots so far. I've been playing the old combination of 2 extra Opt and a Twincast, but I have to admit 3 Twincast main seems tempting as well.

I think it's important that you also explain your sideboard strategies when you post your sideboard. I've been playing this deck for quite a long time now and I'm still not sure about what to board vs. what. Especially the aggro-control and Pikula matchups are tough. I'd like to ask everyone here who knows this deck better than I do to explain me how you board and how successfull that is for you.

By the way, 1 of the 6 Solidarity lists from the worlds is up already: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=229741

It's a really weird list. It plays 4 Meditate mainboard (I've always heard this was bad, but I've been using Meditate much more as a setup card lately (it's such an awesome card for that. You can simply Force everyting you see and draw a new hand afterwards) giving it 2 roles in this deck) and has a really weird sideboard (Pact of Negation??). Tell me what you think!

Shimster

12-14-2007, 05:23 PM

For instance, you should always play 4 Brainstorm and 4 Impulse. I don't see any reason to not play 4 Remand either, since the card has two very important functions in this deck.
I am of the opinion that 4 Remand are crucial for Solidarity, too. On the other hand, people might say that they are kinda dead during mid-combo, since they do literally nothing at this point. It always depends on your style of playing the deck.

Definitely Brainstorm and Impulse are compulsory in the 1cc and 2cc cantrip slots at the moment. I tried to point out that they are nonetheless replacable, as soon as WoTC releases better alternatives in their specific cc-slot (like Ponder would have been, if it had been an instant spell).

ClearSkies

12-14-2007, 05:39 PM

I am of the opinion that 4 Remand are crucial for Solidarity, too. On the other hand, people might say that they are kinda dead during mid-combo, since they do literally nothing at this point. It always depends on your style of playing the deck.

When you say dead mid-combo, does that include the fact that you can play Brainfreeze and then remand Brainfreeze to play it again? Or other stack tricks like taking stuff out of stack to replay it again to over things like Orim's Chant on the stack.

Tacosnape

12-14-2007, 06:01 PM

Remand is a tempo godsend. I'd always run at least 3, probably 4. I almost never board Remands out on the play, though I will sometimes on the draw.

Remand is a pre-combo card that buys you time and lightly sculpts your hand in the process. Mid-combo, think of it as a 4-mana second Brain Freeze. It also lets you do ridiculously cool shit like EOT High Tide into a counterwall, then either they aim a counter at it and you Remand the Tide, or you get a ton of mana to do your awesome stack-defying tricks and Remand your way around the counters.

This is a large reason why I don't find three Twincasts maindeck to be a good idea. Twincast, like Flash of Insight, doesn't help you set up your combo quickly. Remand is almost as good at fighting through counters as Twincast is (It just takes a bit more mana to do effectively, though you get a card in the deal). Remand won't duplicate a Meditate or Reset, but c'est la vie.

Shimster

12-14-2007, 06:03 PM

When you say dead mid-combo, [...]
Mid-combo ranges from winning to losing, as it's the critical step between resolving the High Tide and finding a Brain Freeze. At this time you neither need a counterspell, nor you need a cc2+ cantrip which only replaces himself.

As I mentioned above, I am fully aware of the magic things Solidarity is able to do with the stack. :smile:

/Edit:

It also lets you do ridiculously cool shit like EOT High Tide into a counterwall, [...]
That's the reason I like to play Solidarity instead of other combo decks. Strength may win a fight, but style wins the crowd. :)

BKclassic

12-14-2007, 10:38 PM

I would like to suggest some tech for you all to consider-

-1 High Tide (move to sideboard)
+1 Cunning Wish

I feel like there is a high probability that I am not the first one to think of this, so can anyone tell my why 7 ways to get High Tide isn't a good thing and/or the ability for Cunning Wish to grab any combo part (making it functionally an instant speed 3 mana Demonic Tutor)? I played this build at a scrubby tournament and won handily. While that proves nothing, I really enjoyed not having to waste all my cantrips in the first few turns trying to find a High Tide and was able to save the card draw for going off, and in general made getting all the combo parts easy.

I hear that not everyone likes Cunning Wish, even as a 3 of, so if that change doesn't do it for you, then perhaps this would suit you-

-1 SB card
+1 Mystical Tutor (in SB)

The Hulk in vintage used to play a sideboard copy of Vampiric Tutor to wish for, so that is my inspiration for this. This way, Cunning Wish can still grab you a High Tide or Reset or whatever, and have it ready to go by turn 4 (eot Wish on turn 3, Mystical Tutor on your turn before your draw step, draw card) (in case that wasn't obvious).

I feel like one of these two changes HAS to be good for the deck. In a deck with no tutors, sometimes your combo parts are simply going to be in the bottom of the deck, and can-tripping is just not going to get the job done. And consistency is awesome.

lesly

12-15-2007, 06:39 AM

the reason mystical tutor isn't played is because you dont get the card,you need a cantrip to grab what you searched for also.
and your opponent can see what they have to counter..

hightide in the sb is a very bad idea,the chance of going off turn 4 is less then when you would have played 4main.

i for myself play 4cunning wish maindeck,the card is just so good,i play the deck for a year now and 4cunning wish is just that good,i lost games because i used the freeze trick on myself,but there whas no wish left to win,that's one reason why i play 4,second,it's never a dead draw,even when i combo i still like to see a cunning wish,whether i got all the fancy stuff in my hand or not!
and it's a great setup card on turn 3(but you already know that isn't it?)
i agree,it's a slow card,but very effective.

BKclassic

12-15-2007, 09:29 AM

the reason mystical tutor isn't played is because you dont get the card,you need a cantrip to grab what you searched for also.
and your opponent can see what they have to counter.

I am not sure if I made this clear, but that Mystical Tutor would be in the sideboard. That way you would never have to worry about drawing one while going off, and you could still use it for a setup card (wish for it on turn 3, play it before drawstep turn 4), or while going off, if you do have a cantrip in hand, (Peek maybe?) and some mana to throw around, you could wish for Mystical Tutor, and put whatever card you need on top (Reset perhaps?) and draw into it, and still not have to worry about drawing an untimely Mystical Tutor while going off.

hightide in the sb is a very bad idea,the chance of going off turn 4 is less then when you would have played 4main.

I am unconvinced. It seems me to 7 ways to get High Tide is better then 4 ways if you want to go off by turn 4 (or any other).

Bahamuth

12-15-2007, 12:22 PM

Of those 7 ways you're talking about, only 3 guarantee a High Tide in your hand. Besides slowing you down A LOT (4 is way more than 3, really), you're also showing your opponent you have a High Tide in your hand. This makes a serious difference, since if you look more closely, Cunning Wish is the only card in the deck that gives your opponent any information about your hand. The fact that your opponent has no idea what you've got in your hand is one of the factors that makes this deck as strong as it is.

Also, you'll have to notice Cunning Wish was in the deck before you moves a Tide to the board. Cunning Wish is often needed to perhaps gather other combo pieces or anything else from the board beside te High Tide. You wil do this much more in mid-combo than when you're using it as a tutor to High Tide, giving even less information.

Also, Cunning Wish doesn't guarantee a turn 4 High Tide, since like 50% of all decks in Legacy right now run Daze. Getting a Cunning Wish Dazed sucks big time.

Jak

12-15-2007, 01:36 PM

I really want to try Peer Through the Depths. Flash hasn't been testing well for me because I would draw it mid combo far too often and then try to play it using all of my mana to find some draw. Flashing it back is awesome, but in every situation I would rather draw another Impulse mid combo.

Has anyone tried Boseiju, Who Shelters All in the SB? It could also go MD, but I think the SB would be better. Just as a 2 of. Here is my MD right now.

3 Strand
3 Delta
12 Islands

2 Brainfreeze
4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
3 Cuning Wish
1 Twincast

4 Braisntorm
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
2 Peek/Opt (still testing between the 2)

4 Force of Will
4 Remand

Undecided
4 2 Twincast/2 Wipe Away/2 Opt or Peek/2 Peer Through the Depths/2 FoI

SB
1 Brainfreeze
1 Stroke
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Twincast
1 Echoing Truth
3 Wipe Away
2 Boseiju
4 Spell Snare

Tring the board out. If the lands don't work out, I would cut them for a rebuild an it some Hydroblasts in there.

Tacosnape

12-15-2007, 01:50 PM

I really want to try Peer Through the Depths. Flash hasn't been testing well for me because I would draw it mid combo far too often and then try to play it using all of my mana to find some draw. Flashing it back is awesome, but in every situation I would rather draw another Impulse mid combo.

In defense of FOI, it's better to do a light commitment from it on your first shot, between 1-3, and then flash it back, depending on your mana situation.[/QUOTE]

However, Peer Through Depths is faster, and so is the metagame. Like I said, I hate that it gives your opponents knowledge, but it's better pre-combo than Flash of Insight, though I miss being able to miracle-combo off from a hand of Tide/Reset/Brain Freeze in a pinch by turning Brain Freeze into a potential card draw spell so I'm not sold on PTD yet.

Jak

12-15-2007, 02:59 PM

In defense of FOI, it's better to do a light commitment from it on your first shot, between 1-3, and then flash it back, depending on your mana situation.

However, Peer Through Depths is faster, and so is the metagame. Like I said, I hate that it gives your opponents knowledge, but it's better pre-combo than Flash of Insight, though I miss being able to miracle-combo off from a hand of Tide/Reset/Brain Freeze in a pinch by turning Brain Freeze into a potential card draw spell so I'm not sold on PTD yet.[/QUOTE]

Well, I was talking more of when I have 4 -5 mana in my pool. Playing it for one is really crappy there. Howevery, once it is the GY it is extremely strong and can make Cunning Wish better. I have just been wanting a spell that gets me Tides, Resets and Mediates faster and Peer would do that better then FoI. Midcombo, I usually don't fizzle. Maybe that it because of FoI, but I still want to experiment with Peer.

Tacosnape

12-15-2007, 03:16 PM

That's true. I've been wanting to sneak 1 FoI back in there just for the versatility it adds the deck, for as you said, it does indeed make Cunning Wish better. I might try 2 Peers and 1 FoI, but Peer's been so awesome in setup thus far that it's a hard justification to make.

Bahamuth

12-16-2007, 12:48 PM

I've seen people running less Twincasts nowadays. Why's that? isn't Twincast a great card to fight aggro-control and Pikula-like decks? Or are Spell Snares/Dirsupts better?

ClearSkies

12-16-2007, 02:59 PM

I've seen people running less Twincasts nowadays. Why's that? isn't Twincast a great card to fight aggro-control and Pikula-like decks? Or are Spell Snares/Dirsupts better?

Can you explain how Twincast is good against Pikula-like decks? It really doesn't stop the discard/land destruction from happening like Disrupt/Spell Snares.

Bahamuth

12-16-2007, 03:31 PM

Well I'm not too sure about it. Pikula has a pretty slow clock and that's probably the only factor of the deck that gives you the possibility of winning. If you Twincast a Sinkhole, Hymn, Duress, Thoughtseize or whatever, you should generally be able to buy yourself more time to resolve a Meditate and win in the very late game. Please correct me if I'm wrong tough.

Jak

12-16-2007, 05:24 PM

Fons

12-16-2007, 05:32 PM

I was thinking about playing a combo deck and I started testing and Solidarity is definitly my favorite to play, is there a good decklist to start from that someone can post?

ClearSkies

12-16-2007, 06:28 PM

Snares are just better in the MU. Protecting yourself is more important than hurting them. You can try 3 MD Twincasts, but it was really clunky when I tested it. Usually I only wanted to see one and that was to copy a Meditate or something.

Yea, I goldfished with 3 MD Twincast many times, and I came to that conclusion as well. Twincasting a Meditate is really good while Twincasting a Reset or Cunning Wish was okay. Otherwise, Twincasting anything else is just horrible, but it isn't as horrible as nothing to Twincast.

They do function as extra counterspell 1-3 though if someone tries to counters you.

Bahamuth

12-17-2007, 12:37 AM

So is this also the reason why people don't play them SB anymore? What do you board in vs. Thresh and other aggro-control then?

Jak

12-17-2007, 12:44 AM

So is this also the reason why people don't play them SB anymore? What do you board in vs. Thresh and other aggro-control then?

Spell Snare still beats Daze. I play 2 between the MD and SB. I am testing 2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All because it seems strong. It makes you not have to worry about them countering your draw sources.

I am still fining my play skills with this deck, so how would you guys board against Thresh or Countslivers? Can some people post your SBs and what you side in and out?

Bahamuth

12-17-2007, 04:51 AM

All I know is that Gearheart's plan vs. Thresh was: -4 Remand, -1 Meditate, -1 Turnabout +3 Twincast +1 Bounce +2 Brain Freeze. I have no idea how to board vs. Counterslivers (Spell Snare is obviously very good here) as I don't think the Remands should come out.

The -4 Remand was before the printing of Tarmogoyf, and I think that with Tarmogoyf in every Thresh list, Remand might be much better than before.

lesly

12-17-2007, 05:46 AM

4brainfreeze maindeck just doesn't cut it anymore...
even with 4brainfreeze and 3twincast you still gonna loose the ***** matchup,that is if you play vs a good player,you need some luck to.
from the moment i started with solidarity(1yyear now)i never played with twincast,cause i wasn't convinced from the start anyway...

i just play 4spellsnare sb,wich i dont even board in vs *****(except ug version,then i board them in)
like i said,you need luck,and a clunky player who can't handle *****...

Bahamuth

12-17-2007, 05:53 AM

So are you saying we'd better play nothing SB because we can't win the match anyway? I think that's stupid. You should elaborate a bit more. Why don't you play Twincast? Why so you board in the Spell Snares vs. UG Thresh only?

lebarion

12-17-2007, 06:51 AM

A few thoughts on the thresh matchup...

I have two main problems when facing thresh:

Meddling Mage (not a big issue in the current meta)
Counterbalance (this one is a big problem)

I can usually win a counter war versus thresh even whithout spell snare, if they don't shut down all my 1CC or 2CC spells. If they have counterbalance in play, all I can do is look at that goyf beating me while waiting for a Cunning Wish.
So I've think about two strategies:

Try to be faster, so that I can combo earlier or find a FoW earlier: -2 FoI, -1 Cunning Wish, -2 Twincast, +3 Peer Through Depths, + 2 Opt.
Slow down even more, trying to get to the mid game avoiding Meddling Mage and Counterbalance: -2 Opt, -1 Impulse, -1 Remand, -1 Meditate, +4 SpellSnare, + 1 Wipe Away

The second strategy worked slightly better than the first for me, but I think it is weaker agains other decks. What do you guys think?

Note that I'm just trying to figure out a way of winning Aggro-Control. I still haven't thought what exactly would be MD or SB.

Bahamuth

12-17-2007, 07:09 AM

Now we're getting somewhere. I like the second strategy more too. I'd never board out both of the FoI's, since they can do broken things with Brain Freeze. Obviously what to board out depends on your mainboard. I've been trying 4 Meditate mainboard for a couple of days, and in that situation it's certainly a good idea to board out a Meditate. I can live with -1 Remand too. I'm not too sure about boarding out cantrips. Spell Snare is a good card, but I doubt you'll be able to find it fast enough without those cantrips.

What I would do (in the old 4 Opt 1 Twincast list with 1 Meditate replacing an Opt):

-1 Meditate
-1 Remand
-1 Twincast (is that a good idea? (should I be playing it at all?))
-1 Opt
-1 Impulse

+4 Spell Snare
+1 Wipe Away

I think Opt is more important here than Impulse, since Opt gives you the ability to dig for a Spell Snare and use the Spell Snare on turn 2.

Other aggro-control decks like Meathooks and Hanni Fish bring in Meddling Mage too, so I guess it would be right to use the same strategy there too. Spell Snare is obviously very strong vs. Counterslivers and does very well vs. Hanni Fish too.

Edit: How good is Disrupt vs. Thresh? And is it better vs. Pikula than Spell Snare?

lesly

12-17-2007, 08:08 PM

i can understand your point of view very well bahamuth,afterall you play twincasts longer than i do.

disrupt sucks big time vs *****,but its ok vs pikula,that's what i got from my testngs...and in the end it works as a cantrip also when it's not needed anymore,though,i don't have them anymore in my sb(i still play red tide,it gives me no disadvantage,or atleast not much,and alot of newer players still tend to play mages...)

in the end i think solidarity is much better of against pikula with spellsnare than disrupt.
ow yh,i think maindecking wipe away and spellsnares isn't a very great idea...
spellsnare is a good card,but doesn't replace itself.
wipe away is very random,i played 1random bounce myself for a while,and it dind't worked out like i wished it did.

in the end,5 useless maindeck cards,and that's something solidarity doesn't want either
but very good in sb like i stated before,and i would never cut an impulse,the card is just nuts,and in a deck like this it just plays like a tutor.

Tacosnape

12-17-2007, 08:43 PM

ClearSkies

12-17-2007, 11:40 PM

Commandeer is an interesting solution to Counterbalance, as it not only stops the Counterbalance but gives you a Counterbalance to stop subsequent Counterbalances, Forces, Snares, and if you're lucky, Tarmogoyfs.

But won't losing two blue cards will put you too far behind in your actual combo?

I noticed that while Solidarity have alot of cantrips, it really doesn't have much ways to draw extra cards.

Bovinious

12-17-2007, 11:47 PM

Even if you can Commandeer a Counterbalance (holy card disadvantage!), you wont really be able to use it well since your only deck manipulation is 4 Brainstorm...so yeah Commandeer just seems awful here.

Tacosnape

12-18-2007, 02:16 AM

But won't losing two blue cards will put you too far behind in your actual combo?

I noticed that while Solidarity have alot of cantrips, it really doesn't have much ways to draw extra cards.

It has Meditate, and very often you can't be afraid to use it to refill your hand if you have time.

However, yes, the double card cost is probably too steep to make it worthwhile.

Bahamuth

12-18-2007, 09:20 AM

I'm going to the national champs Legacy in Belgium with Solidarity. I tink I'm gonna go with this list:

4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze
4 Remand
4 FoW
3 Opt
1 Twincast
2 Flash of Insight
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse

12 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

SB:
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain Freeze
4 Spell Snare
2 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
3 Hydroblast
1 Twincast

I have absolutely no idea what the meta's going to look like, but I supose there might be a lot of Thresh and Loam and perhaps some Pikula-ish decks. I put the Hydroblasts (back) in my board mainly because I had some spots left and because it does pretty well vs. random red decks. I also think it could be pretty good in my TES matchup. How should I board vs. fast combo?

The 4th Meditate is basically an experiment. I expect the meta not to be too fast, so I hope to be able to use it as a setup card a bit more, hence the 4th mainboard. Any suggestions are welcome.

arsenalpow

12-18-2007, 09:34 AM

The only change I could possibly see would be

-1 meditate
+1 opt

But you seem to have already addressed that it will be more setup oriented.

Tacosnape

12-18-2007, 02:26 PM

On the contrary, I'd go:

-1 Twincast
+1 Opt

Opt is an incredible powerhouse, and if it had the Relentless Rats ability, I'd definitely be running more than 4. I can't fathom cutting one.

Also, in sideboard i'd do something akin to

-1 Wipe Away
+1 Mystical Tutor

As Wish for Mystical lets you hit both the single-ofs you board in, as well as it being an EOT tutor for High Tide on turn 4 (Wish for Mystical, Mystical for Tide, Untap, Draw Tide, win next turn.)

Bahamuth

12-18-2007, 02:41 PM

Tacosnape

12-18-2007, 03:59 PM

I'll try the 4th Opt. I like that idea.

I was playing 2 Wipe Away to board in 1 vs. CounterTop and Mages. How do you suggest I board vs. Thresh with that configuration?

If it were me, I'd leave the Wipe in board and bring in the army of Snares and hope for the best. However, if you want, you could just cut a Snare, a Blast, or something else for the Mystical Tutor.

lesly

12-18-2007, 04:37 PM

slow meta in belguim?think again bahamuth,don't adapt your deck to a slow meta,you will regret it...
mol is always a competetive tournament...

matelml

12-18-2007, 04:43 PM

I also think it could be pretty good in my TES matchup.

I don't think that will be very relevant. My guess is that there won't be more than 2 TES decks, although if you want to win the tournament you might face one in T8:laugh: .

Bahamuth

12-19-2007, 12:47 AM

Slow meta in belguim? Think again bahamuth, don't adapt your deck to a slow meta, you will regret it...
Mol is always a competitive tournament...

I absolutely never said Mol wouldn't be a competitive tournament at all. I just don't think there will be many deck focussed on speed like TES or Goblins at all.

@Matelml: Shut up.....:smile:

lebarion

12-20-2007, 08:25 AM

By the way, and I might be wrong, but aren't we still waiting for this 'secret tech' from Gearheart about which he said he wanted to test it first? It's been a month or two already....

Well, It's been four months already, I think... I don't want to be a nuisance, but I'm really curious. Perhaps it's already time for that secret tech to be told, isn't it?

ImAChampion

12-20-2007, 08:35 AM

Well, It's been four months already, I think... I don't want to be a nuisance, but I'm really curious. Perhaps it's already time for that secret tech to be told, isn't it?I thought that was the splash of :r: for Sudden Shock and Urza's Rage to get rid of Meddling Mage?

Van Phanel

12-20-2007, 09:28 AM

It was tech, because Meddling Mage was the absolutely most annoying permanent for us at that time (disruption + beats in one card). By now however, Counterbalance is worse for us so the red-splash has lost at least part of its viability.

Bovinious

12-20-2007, 01:40 PM

I dont know if well ever see tech from Gearhart, he seems to have given up on the deck and now usually plays strange new decks with green and Tarmogoyf. I even witnessed his own creation bite him in the ass and beat him last week at a local tourney, it was sad yet ironic to see :(

nitewolf9

12-20-2007, 01:51 PM

ImAChampion

12-20-2007, 02:09 PM

Then that guy ran into a deck playing counterbalance and learned something important.While I am not Gearheart...I switched over to White Prison and got pwned by someone that I let borrow the deck. Sad days.

Van Phanel

12-20-2007, 02:18 PM

Then that guy ran into a deck playing counterbalance and learned something important.

I wouldn't say so.

In my experience I've found that Counterbalance is not the end of things even if annoying. The player playing it more often than not has to focus on either beating down with annoying little green men (and I do mean little, as Goyf often is 2/3 and rarely bigger than 3/4 early in the game) or disrupting us with Counterbalance + Top. If he does the former, we can just combo around his one or two counters, if he does the latter we usually have enough time to Wish for Wipe Away, bounce his CB and get into combo-mode. The rule of thumb that either a fast clock or disruption is not enough to beat Solidarity hasn't changed, even if both the disruption and the beatdown have gotten better.

I don't want to deny at all that CB isn't annoying, but the only thing it does is stopping us from killing him, it does not kill us. To adapt to the faster and Counterbalance-infested meta, I've changed my list to be able to prevent Counterbalance from entering play even preboard:

12 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
3 Opt
2 Spell Snare
4 Reset
4 Impulse
3 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
1 Think Twice
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
2 Flash of Insight

SB:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Echoing Truth
2 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild (Stax has increased in popularity after worlds)
2 Spell Snare
1 Twincast
4 Hydroblast

With that list I managed to do a 4-2-2 at the Sideevent of GP Stuttgart with two Id's against friends and if I hadn't stupidly thrown a game against Affinity away, this could have been even better. Here's my report:

Solidarity will never be dead. (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=189424&postcount=14)

For now I'd like to hear some opinions:

a) Are the Spell Snares good enough for the main? I think they are as they will never be dead except against Goblins and usually buying a turn by countering a random spell is woth it, too. Still I do see the problems of playing noncombo-cards #23 and #24.

b) Is it better to board both Wipe Aways against Counterbalance or should I only board one and leave the other one in the board for wishing?
My sideboardplan against Balanced Fish/ Treshhold/ Baseruption usually looks like this:

+ 2 Spell Snare
+ 2 Wipe Away
- 1 Remand
- 1 Impulse
- 1 Cunning Wish
- 1 Opt (this hurts (Really) and because of that I consider cutting the fourth Spell Snare. Do you know anything else I could board out?)

Obviously if I'd only board only one Wipe Away, I'd leave the third Wish in the deck.

Discuss.

- Van

Tacosnape

12-20-2007, 03:06 PM

I would feel okay sharing the Gearhart tech if someone had naturally stumbled on to examining the card over the course of this entire thread, but they haven't. It's not earth shattering or revolutionizing or something I'm even convinced I'd play, though. It is, however, a means of dealing with every single problem the deck can run across.

@Van: I was seriously contemplating the maindecked Snares as well. However, unless they run Counterbalance or a select few other cards (Chalice-1, Meddling Mage, maybe Hymn to Tourach), while the Snares wouldn't be dead, they wouldn't exactly be overwhelmingly strong either, considering that they don't help assemble your combo and therefore the tempo you actually gain off of them is negligible, and by having them in your library it makes your combo less consistent.

Personally I think it might be better to try maindecking Repeal, which draws a card and is similarly pretty good against Counterbalance (As you throw it for 3). However I'm not sure this is worthwhile either.

As for the Wipe Aways, I dislike the idea of not leaving one in the board unless, as you're doing, you're cutting multiple Cunning Wishes to bring them in, which is an option. If you don't have a Wipe and you resolve a Cunning Wish with a Counterbalance in play, then chances are your opponent will be able to counter any bounce spell you get with it.

I suppose it might be interesting to try a 4 Wipe Away board that brings all but one Cunning Wish out just to see how it plays out.

Bovinious

12-20-2007, 10:50 PM

Did anyone see the article "Pithy Title" on MTG.com today? Chris Millar proposed a very interesting list of Solidarity, seen here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/cm102 :tongue:

Soto

12-20-2007, 11:29 PM

Where?

Bovinious

12-20-2007, 11:30 PM

It was a joke, he posted a deck called Solidarity but it was some God-awful Treefolk deck that played 1 copy of the card Solidarity :rolleyes:

etrigan

12-20-2007, 11:52 PM

Too bad Solidarity isn't in Tenth, or I would so be playing than in Standard now.

Tacosnape

12-21-2007, 12:09 AM

...You guys fail at being on topic. Moar anti-counterbalance tech discussion.

EDIT: When the hell did I start saying "Moar" so much?

Bovinious

12-21-2007, 12:25 AM

when you started lurking moar probably, ya kno because its never enough :wink:

Anti counterbalance tech like Cunning Wish for Wipe Away? or just dont play this deck in a CB infested meta.

Jak

12-21-2007, 12:32 AM

Boseiju?

Bovinious

12-21-2007, 12:34 AM

Boseiju?

Good luck Hige Tide or Reset with that :1: ...I think Spell Snare MD is probably a good answer, and like I just said Cunning Wish for Wipe Away would probably work since CB hits 3 very rarely.

Jak

12-21-2007, 12:36 AM

Good luck Hige Tide or Reset with that :1: ...I think Spell Snare MD is probably a good answer, and like I just said Cunning Wish for Wipe Away would probably work since CB hits 3 very rarely.

Yeah...

It basically makes everything else in the deck uncounterable though. They can still counter your wish. I am not saying that it would take up island space, but in the board as a 2 of might work.

Tacosnape

12-21-2007, 01:59 AM

Shimster

12-21-2007, 03:28 AM

I would suggest something like

+ 4 Spell Snare
+ 3 Wipe Away (you normally don't want to see more than one)
- 2 Cunning Wish (playing 3 MD)
- 2 Peek
- 1 Opt
- 1 Impulse
- 1 Twincast (playing 1 MD)

On the other hand, I got the idea of playing 3 Repeal MD. As they cantrip, they aren't as dead as other bounce spells would be. I tested them in the 1cc cantrip slots (i. e. in the place of 2 Peek and 1 Opt) and they turned out to be quite worthwile.

While on the play, they shut down Goblin Lackey, Dark Confidant, Meddling Mage, Tarmogoyf, non-ritualed Hypnotic Specter and Counterbalance. Pretty amazing list regarding Solidarity's bad matchups.

GreenOne

12-21-2007, 03:29 AM

This is a question for anyone who wants to take a stab at it. I'm curious about the general consenses.

Assume for a moment that you're facing a Counterbalance packing deck and you have in your sideboard, at your disposal to board in, 4 Wipe Away and 4 Spell Snare.

How many of each would you board in and for what, and what would your maindeck look like, considering you have to be able to still combo out?

It really depends on what he's playing.
Assuming is a UGx Thresh variant I'd go with:
-1 Cunning Wish
-1 Opt or Peek
-4 Remand

+3 Wipe away
+3 spell snare

That if the deck has little to no 3cc and has some vicious 2cc targets (counterspell, M.Mage, Confidant...)
If the deck has 3cc i'd go with

+2 Wipe Away
+4 Spell snare

@Repeal: we tested it some time ago and it was bad, but I don't remember why. I'll give it another shotand test it again.

Tacosnape

12-21-2007, 03:46 AM

The only problem with Repeal, although this is less of a problem than it used to be, is that it doesn't bounce Chalice of the Void for 1. Chalice still sees a fair bit of play in Faerie and Dragon Stompy, as well as Stax. It's also still counterable, whereas a maindecked Wipe Away is not.

GreenOne

12-21-2007, 04:52 AM

I looked a ton of pages back to see what people thought about Repeal. It sucked in a meta with many black decks. It was, however, before counterbalance entered the meta. It maybe a good idea to bring it back now.

Bahamuth

12-21-2007, 09:35 AM

I'm a bit unsure about what to play right now. What list would you guys play if the meta would be Thresh, Loam, perhaps some Pikula and a lot of random decks?

@Taco: I know what Gearheart's tech is. Altough I think it's a pretty nice idea, I don't think it's better than the comparable card most of us are using right now, since there isn't much Goblins around anymore. Gearheart told me it would be good because it could be used vs. a very large number of decks.

ImAChampion

12-21-2007, 09:43 AM

@Taco: I know what Gearheart's tech is. Altough I think it's a pretty nice idea, I don't think it's better than the comparable card most of us are using right now, since there isn't much Goblins around anymore. Gearheart told me it would be good because it could be used vs. a very large number of decks.Can we stop baiting arguements about, "Tell Me!! Tell Me!!" that will more than likely start soon? If you have t3ch either tell it or don't but I don't think that this is the place to whisper behind each others back.

Bahamuth

12-21-2007, 09:48 AM

Can we stop baiting arguements about, "Tell Me!! Tell Me!!" that will more than likely start soon? If you have t3ch either tell it or don't but I don't think that this is the place to whisper behind each others back.

I'm sorry about that. I don't mind releasing it but I think Gearheart wouldn't be happy if I did. All I was trying to say is that it's not too important since the card wouldn't be the right choice in the meta of today. Taco can probably tell you the same.

Tacosnape

12-21-2007, 02:46 PM

Agreed. Snare is equally good against faster combo decks, better against Counterbalance decks, and...er. Isn't that all we lose to? I think so.

The extent of cards I want to play as board in options is Spell Snare, Hydroblast, and Wipe Away. Snare's good against Combo and Threshold, Wipe Away's fantastic at bouncing annoying stuff, and Hydroblast is strong against Goblins, Burn, and Storm Combo. The trick is figuring out how many of each to run and what to board out.

Bahamuth

12-21-2007, 02:54 PM

I think I figured out what I'm going to play tomorrow at the Belgian Champs. I'm going to try 2 Spell Snare mainboard as well.

12 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
3 Opt
2 Spell Snare
4 Reset
4 Impulse
4 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
2 Flash of Insight

2 Twincast
2 Wipe Away
2 Spell Snare
3 Hydroblast
1 Rebuild
1 Stoke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Echoing Truth
1 Brain Freeze

I do want to play 4 Remand, so I chose to cut an Opt instead, as I have no idea what could be cut otherwise. I figured I'd play 2 Twincast to board in vs. any deck (because I expect a lot of random decks anyway) where I don't want the Spell Snares or the Hydroblasts.

I played some games vs. Landstill a couple of days ago, and I was wondering if it's a good idea to board in Spell Snare. They hit Standstill, Counterspell and Meddling Mage, which most players still tend to play.

Van Phanel

12-21-2007, 04:15 PM

Your sideboarded Brain Freeze has probably leapt over quite some lines there. :wink:

If the Landstill-Player has Meddling Mages, Spell Snare is a good addition, if he hasn't they are unneeded but can help in counterwars because they are the cheapest possible (Force aside) answer to a Counterspell.

My board against Landstill extremly depends on my opponent and his version of Landstill.

You usually want as many Twincasts as possible (in place of Remands more often than not, never play less than 2 Remands however). If my opponent has shown black mana in game one I always board out 1 High Tide and 1 Reset to minimize the chances of having one of those Extirpated out of my hand. I also often try to go off in my own turn, especially if they go for an eot Fact or Fiction or a cycled Decree. 1 Force is also a card you can easily board out.

Good luck tommorow in your championships. Tell us how they've been for you later.

Bovinious

12-22-2007, 11:51 PM

Hey guys, I just played Solidarity for the first time in forever at my local tourney, and I really wondered why Twincast is in the deck, Im sure there is a reason I just cant think of any time I particularly want to see. I was thinking about replacing my 1 MD Twincast with a Telling Time (basically Impulse #5) and freeing up SB slots for more Snares/Blasts, any thoughts on this?

Also, what is the best number of fetches to run with this deck, is it just as many as you can get?

Galroth

12-23-2007, 12:26 AM

To my knowledge... 0 fetches.This is based on the mono-colored build of course.

Others can provide the reasoning for this much better than I. But it is in part to a more stable mana-base. (Even if you are fetching basic islands with your fetches.) The possible disadvantages of running fetches do not make for the possible deck thinning in Solidarity.

Hope that helps.

Jak

12-23-2007, 01:33 AM

^
Ther correct amout is 6. If they Stifle a fetch, then the deck will probably not outrace you. They are slow if they run Stifle. Being able to Brainstorm-->Fetch is awesome. It also deck thins which helps a little.

Bahamuth

12-23-2007, 03:47 AM

I went 5-1-1 yesterday at the Belgian Champs (there were 129 players) and made it into the top 8. Here’s a brief report:

Round 1 vs. AfFoWinity with Sea Drakes

Game 1: I go land go, he plays 2 Chrome Mox on the first turn and plays a Frogmite. Next turn he drops another Frogmite and tries to cast a Thoughtcast, which I decide to FoW leaving him with 0 cards in his hand. I eventually wish for Rebuild and bounce his board. A few turns later I win.

Game 2: He plays turn 1 artifact-land, go. Second turn he casts a Sea Drake, bouncing his own 2 lands. The following 2 turns he does exactly the same, so he has 2 Sea Drakes online. Next turn he tries to cast a Chalice and I kill him.

Round 2 vs. Black Threshhold

Game 1: He has the nuts in his hand with a bunch of counters, 2 Goyf, a land and a Brainstorm, with which he proceeds to not find a land for about 8 turns. I Spell Snare both of his Goyfs and kill him with 10 land out.

Game 2 : He runs over me with 2 Confidants, a Goyf and a Counterbalance (I countered a Confidant and the Counterbalance, but couldn’t handle the Goyf and the other Confidant).

Game 3: I’m forced to go off at 7 land with a suboptimal hand after his Extirpate and Toughtseize. I manage to find a way to Freeze him for just enough with enough mana open for hardcast FoW. He plays his expected Stifle, I tap mana for my FoW and accidentally point my FoW to one of his counters which was still on the stack. He obviously calls in a judge, but he lets me target the Stifle anyway.

2-0

Round 3 vs. Elves!

This is one of the guys I drove with to this tournament. We decide to play it out.

Game 1: He plays some elves and eventually a Winter Orb, which I Spell Snare. I win with 5 lands out.

Game 2: He plays some mana elves again, drops 2 green Athems, giving him a 2 turn clock. I’m pretty scared at this point because I know I didn’t have any draw in my hand. Luckily (I pointed out this was a mistake later) he plays 2 more elves on the next turn, giving me just enough storm to simply play my whole hand and win with Brain Freeze + Remand.

3-0

Round 4 vs. Dragon Stompy

Game 1:He drops a turn 1 Arc-Slogger and I don’t have the FoW. 2 turns later comes a Trinishpere and I scoop.

Game 2: This game was ridiculous. He plays a turn 1 Chalice for 1 (I wasn’t happy). He drops a turn 2 or 3 Arc Slogger and I remand it. Next turn I Remand it again and the turn after that 1 I FoW it. He drops a second Slogger, but I have another Remand left. He drops it again next turn, and I FoW. Eventually he has some beaters. I proceed to untap with about 9 land and find only 1CC spells and lands. I scoop.
3-1

Round 5 vs. R/G Goyf Sligh

Game 1: Pretty straightforward. He plays some burn and I Spell Snare a Goyf. I win with 2 burn spells on the stack, bouncing his Grim Lavamancer (because he could kill me in his upkeep with it) and FoWing both burn spells.

Game 2: I get pretty much crushed.

Game 3: Not much different. I decide to Hydroblast a second turn Kird Ape, but he Pyroblasts back. This was a really good player and while comboing out, he really gave me shivers, thinking after each spell I try to cast (I was at 2, he had mana open). Eventually his deck is gone and I try to Stroke him for 1. He taps his mountain (I almost got a heart attack) and shows his hand of Mogg Fanatic and Crypt.

Round 6 vs. Ichorid

This was basically more luck on my side than really playing well.

Game 1: He has a nuts hand with LED, land and Breaktrough, but doesn’t find a second dredger with his Grave-Troll. When he eventually goes on dredging, I’m ready to kill him.

Game 2: He crushes me with turn 2 a ridiculous amount of zombies and 4 Flashback Therapies.

Game 3: He is pretty unlucky again with his dredges. He eventually casts a Deep Analysis, which would probably win the game for him, and I proceed to Brain Freeze his deck away, killing him with his own Analysis.

5-1

Round 7 vs. Dragon Stompy (Dragon Stompy did really well that day, and so did TES)

We decide to draw. I feel a bit bad for him because the standings showed I was 5th and he was 6th. I convinced him to draw, and I made it in the top 8, but he didn’t. If you’re reading this, I’m sorry!

5-1-1

Top 8 vs. Elves! Again

Game 1: I have to mull to 6 (didn’t have to mull the whole tournament) and decide to keep a very mediocre hand. I eventually go off with just an Impulse as drawer, but I find exactly what I need (including 2 Meditates).

Game 2: I have to mull again. My hand of 6 is pretty good, but I eventually screw this 1 up. I have 4 untapped land (after 1 Tide) and 4 mana floating. I somehow tought I had enough gas in my hand to kill him at that point (the storm count was high enough for 2 Freezes) so I cast my Turnabout on his creatures. Then I find out I’m 1 mana short. I think a lot and see no out in this situation, so I scoop. Some of the spectators told me I could’ve Freezed myself, which I completely forgot about….

Game 3: I have to mull AGAIN to 5. He plays some elves and drops a Thorn of Amethyst, for which I have no counter. I’m forced to win at 3 land, but that’s not possible with a Thorn into play.

Hmm, it got a bit longer than a brief report. I hope you enjoy reading and don’t mind it’s length!

Elfrago

12-23-2007, 05:01 AM

Congratulations for your finish!
Looks like maindeck spell snares are really good!

Taurelin

12-23-2007, 05:41 AM

I really wondered why Twincast is in the deck, Im sure there is a reason I just cant think of any time I particularly want to see.

Twincast alone does nothing, it has, however, the function of a Joker. You can play the Twincast on resources you are short of (Cards-> Meditate, Mana -> Reset), you can use Twincast as a Counterspell (-> opponent's FoW), and you can use it on spells your opponent tries to counter (-> High Tide while going off). Twincasts in the SB are generally used for boarding in, not for wishing, in Control-Matchups.

You can even do "cool" stuff with it, like copying opponents' spells. For example, if you play vs Iggy Pop, you can Twincast his Ill-Gotten Gains and go infinite if you have a Reset and any random draw spell in hand. Hell, I've even copied a TES's Plunge into darkness ftw.

Also, what is the best number of fetches to run with this deck, is it just as many as you can get?

The main reason for approximtely 6 Fetchies is the interaction with Brainstorm. It can also be useful to shuffle your library after multiple Impulses before going off.

lesly

12-23-2007, 07:48 AM

again congrats bahamuth!!
great victory^^
i went 4-3 i lost my 3matches vs *****....:cry:

Bahamuth

12-23-2007, 08:08 AM

Thanks! Bad luck you had to play that much Thresh.

By the way, your Islands were beautiful. Where'd you get those? My Unhinged islands look crap next to them....

lesly

12-23-2007, 08:15 AM

i know,i love them to!
my local club where i play(the brassman!in ostend)buys collections from people,and sometimes thy just come free:)
but i realy have no clue where to get them otherwise...
you could try trading them@www.nedermagic.nl should work i guess^^

indeedy i had alot of bad luck with those ***** matchups,i mean,something like 5-10 ***** decks,and i had to play against 3,in a tournament of 129 people:cry:

solidarity!

12-24-2007, 03:58 AM

congratulations Bahamuth!

I am gonna pick the deck up into a tournament after a magic break =(

Well here is my list!

I tinkered too with the idea of 2 spell snare main and they rock against random stuffs too!

12 island
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta

4 opt
1 brain freeze
4 force of will
4 remand
4 brainstorm
4 impulse
3 turnabout
4 reset
4 high tide
2 SPELL SNARE
3 cunning wish
2 flash of insight
3 cunning wish

sideboard
1 stroke of genius
1 wipe away
1 meditate
1 twincast
1 turnabout
1 rebuild
1 echoing truth
2 spell snare
1 brain freeze

And for the rest i am out of ideas
i don't think hydroblast is that good or 3 twincast and i think chain of vapor had lost it's touch

So do you guys have any ideas?

lesly

12-24-2007, 07:53 AM

i think you better cut an opt for a second freeze,1 md seems so random,what if you need the freeze trick to cast flash?then you need a wish...
you dont want to wish after freeze all the time though..

if there is damage on the stack,and it's lethal,you need a wish foir freeze(you cant find the one md as an example...)and a second for the stroke,to much if you ask me

this is my list atm
2x delta
4x strands
2x volcanic island
10x island

3x turnabout
2x freeze
3x meditate
3x opt
4x tide
4x fow
4x brainstorm
4x impulse
4x remand
3x xunning wish
4x reset
2x flash if insight
2x spell snare

sb
1x turnabout
1x brainfreeze
1x meditate
2x spell snare
3x twincast
1x wipe away
1x stroke of genius
1x echoing truth
1x urzas rage
1x rack and ruin
1x starstorm
1s sudden shock

as you can see,i still play red tide,it has better answers vs mage(wich isnt played that much anymore at all,but i hate losing to random junk with mages,and there are always people playing mage...)

no hydroblast either,gobbo's isnt played anymore,and it's 50-50 anyway,hydroblast could help to race them indeed,but i rather have 3cards in my sb that actually do something againt other decks also.