[Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)

[matelml]

I have a question about the rules that should be relevant playing this deck: Do you need priority to tap lands for mana? So if I cast Reset do I need to put mana in pool before I pass priority or can I do it after?

[Bahamuth]

I have a question about the rules that should be relevant playing this deck: Do you need priority to tap lands for mana? So if I cast Reset do I need to put mana in pool before I pass priority or can I do it after?

Q: Player A plays Reset and passes priority to Player B. Player B passes priority and asks to resolve Reset. Can player A still tap lands before the effects of Reset happen, or can he only untap the two lands?

A: At this point it is too late to tap land for mana. Both players have passed priority without doing anything, so the Reset will resolve now. If Player A wanted to generate mana he would need to do so after playing Reset and before passing priority to Player B.

By the way, I think this should've been in the rules forum.

[matelml]

Ok, but why is this? I was under the impression mana abilities do not use the stack so you do not need priority for mana abilities. So do you need priority to do anything in the game even though you do not use the stack, for example if you want to unmorph a creature?

I understand this may not be the appropriate forum for this, but I thought this could be relevant for other people playing with Solidarity too and because this comes up when you play Solidarity I thought somebody from this thread would have the answer.

[cheddercaveman]

Because it is not relevant that mana does not use the stack (which is correct). Morph and Suspend also do not use the stack but will work somewhat similarily (check the comp rules for the exact details of all this if you'd like). However, you can not do anything unless you have priority. Once you've played your spell and passed priority you can not do anything until player B passes priority back to you. If you both pass with an empty stack you will not receive priority again until your spell (and any relevant state based effects) resolve.

[Bahamuth]

Now I really shouln't be posting this (yet?), since the surprise factor is quite important. On the other hand, how many people will actually read what I have to say anyway?

I've been looking for a way to be able to beat Thresh and other aggro-control decks like CounterSlivers and Hanni Fish. This is what I came up with:

Hunting Pack

Instant, 5GG (7)
Storm.
Put a 4/4 green Cat Beast creature token into play.

Now let me explain. This card has multiple purposes. First of all you can use it as a kill instead of Brain Freeze. This requires some more mana, but less storm and less dependancy on draw spells. In the limited testing I did, even 2-3 tokens will often be enough to win the game, especially when your opponent isn't expecting it.

The second is way more inportant. Here too, it's a very big advantage if your opponent does not know about this card yet, but it's not that much of a deal when he already does. Basically, you use this card to kill your opponent's creatures. Wait until their declare attackers step and once he/she declared an attack with a couple of creatures, you simply play a High Tide/Reset or even a Turnabout and follow up with a Hunting Pack (we're assuming we're in a aggro-control matchup right now, so you should have about 5-6 lands in play.) It can obviously be done with less land and an additional untap spell/High Tide.
Now you'll most likely be able to block your (stunned) opponent's creatures to death and win like 2-3 turns later thanks to attacking.

Note how Hunting Pack allows a very easy way around Meddling Mage, since you won't need High Tide to be able to use Hunting Pack.

Now I'm posting this because I'm having trouble with how many of these to paly, and how to board. I'm using the standard list with 4 Opt and a Twincast in the mainboard. My boarding vs. Thresh so far has been this:

+2 Hunting Pack (leaving one in the board)
+2 Twincast
+1 Echoing Truth

-1 Brain Freeze (Since I have Hunting Pack now)
-1 Flash of Insight (Since I have 1 Brain Freeze less)
-1 Remand (Slightly worse without Brain Freeze)
-1 Meditate (Since my combo becomes less dependant on drawing cards)
-1 FoW (Since I usually find myself having a Wish left in my hand, which can now turn into a FoW for Stifle)

I'm also not sure how to use Hunting Pack in other matchups. I think it's probably a good idea to board them in for a game vs. Landstill, but no more than that, since they can board in their Explosives/Deeds again. Also, I've had some slight succes vs. aggro (like Goblins?) with it, destroying their whole board.

Please give me your opinion on this.

[Nihil Credo]

Very cool. It was a staple in Extended Heartbeat combo, incidentally, but I didn't expect it to work here as well. Tarmogoyf will thankfully be only a 3/4 in this matchup; unfortunately, after you kill one of their creatures, the next ones will be 4/5 and be able to block Beasts all day long.

Some questions:

1) How many Tropicals do you run?
2) Could this pair well with Bound//Determined? It seems they answer different problems.
3) +2 Hunting Pack (leaving one in the board). Does that mean you run 3 Packs?

[Bahamuth]

Very cool. It was a staple in Extended Heartbeat combo, incidentally, but I didn't expect it to work here as well. Tarmogoyf will thankfully be only a 3/4 in this matchup; unfortunately, after you kill one of their creatures, the next ones will be 4/5 and be able to block Beasts all day long.

Some questions:

1) How many Tropicals do you run?
2) Could this pair well with Bound//Determined? It seems they answer different problems.
3) +2 Hunting Pack (leaving one in the board). Does that mean you run 3 Packs?

Even if the Goyf would be 4/5 before the tokens arrive, I'd simply throw 2 tokens at him. You're right about the Goyf being 4/5 afterwards. But if it's blocking, it's not attacking right? It will give me a huge amout of time to refill my hand again and just make some more tokens/ cast a big enough Freeze.

1) I run 2. I think 2 is definitely the right number. You have one back-up in the case one should get wasted. Also, you will need both if you're going to produce some tokens without an untapper. I've never had trouble getting my Trops.

2) I haven't tried that out yet actually. Bound//Determined is pretty good at biting counters, and if everything goed all right, you should have some more gas in your hand which allows you to cast a Hunting Pack afterwards anyway.

3) Yes, I run 3 at the moment. I've been thinking to go up to 4, so I'm sure I'll find one every game. It's just too sucky to find 2 in your hand....

EDIT:
but I didn't expect it to work here as well.
I'm not sure if it's working yet. :P

[Sanguine Voyeur]

2) I haven't tried that out yet actually. Bound//Determined is pretty good at biting counters, and if everything goed all right, you should have some more gas in your hand which allows you to cast a Hunting Pack afterwards anyway. The biggest problem with Determined is that it doesn't help against Counterbalance. It helps against blue based control, something relatively easy, and maybe the mirror.

[Shimster]

Why shouldn't Determined help against Counterbalance? It says


Determined (Bound/Determined)
Instant, GU (2)
Other spells you control can't be countered by spells or abilities this turn.
Draw a card.

As far as I remember, Counterbalance counters via a triggered ability. So it should kinda help, shouldn't it? :confused:

Hunting Pack on the other hand is a great idea. :laugh: It is much better than Urza's Rage, since you can use it without comboing out normally. Compared with red, green offers better sideboard options, too.

I would like to suggest the following sideboard (without proper testing, though):

4 Krosan Grip (instead of 4 Wipe Away. As Meddling Mage is no longer a problem, we can focus on destroying Counterbalances, as well as Solitary Confinements)
3 Hunting Pack
1 Spell Snare (Take this, Hymn to Tourach! I'm currently playing 2 MD.)
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild (Armageddon Stax is becoming more important in Germany.)
1 Brain Freeze (Winning with lethal damage on the stack is the coolest thing ever. Period.)
1 Meditate
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout

Yeah, no Bound/Determined in the sideboard. It's too clunky in my opinion.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Why shouldn't Determined help against Counterbalance?Determined cost two, the most common mana cost in Counterbalance decks. It also doesn't "draw" Counterbalance away like it does to counterspells.

I don't think Spell Snare is for wishing. That's four mana to take out two mana.

[Shimster]

So we can conclude that Bound/Determined sucks in the current meta, right? :laugh:

I don't think Spell Snare is for wishing. That's four mana to take out two mana.
Seconded. It is obviously for boarding in against decks that are not hurt by Krosan Grip (like Deadgoyf Ale).

[Nihil Credo]

Are both Chain of Vapor and Echoing Truth still necessary? I think one of them (probably the latter) can be cut, or at the least turned into Wipe Away against those Fish decks that still run Meddling Mage.

[marit]

Are both Chain of Vapor and Echoing Truth still necessary? I think one of them (probably the latter) can be cut, or at the least turned into Wipe Away against those Fish decks that still run Meddling Mage.

I recommend that you don't cut echoing truth. If belcher spits out it's hand to make 10-16 tokens, you're only hope is echoing truth. My board conisists of all 3, Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth and Wipe Away. If anything, I would cut CoV because often wishing for bounce means there's a chalice, normally at 1; making CoV fairly useless.

[Tacosnape]

I recommend that you don't cut echoing truth. If belcher spits out it's hand to make 10-16 tokens, you're only hope is echoing truth. My board conisists of all 3, Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth and Wipe Away. If anything, I would cut CoV because often wishing for bounce means there's a chalice, normally at 1; making CoV fairly useless.

I completely agree. Echoing Truth and Wipe Away are so much stronger that they're worth the extra mana commitment.

[vanele]

Are both Chain of Vapor and Echoing Truth still necessary? I think one of them (probably the latter) can be cut, or at the least turned into Wipe Away against those Fish decks that still run Meddling Mage.

Whats your current board looking like that you have to cut such an important bounce spell. Imho I wouldn't cut CoV for the world. Being able to third turn cunning wish into Fourth turn Bounce + combo is just too strong a play to give up.

[lesly]

i realy like the idea of hunting pack,though it would be a problem if an ee is already casted for 0(but then we still got freeze ofcourse)
let us know your testing results when youre done,i am looking forward to it:smile:

[Shimster]

Anyways, who is going to play Engineered Explosives against Solidarity? The deck is flexible enough to play around such a dumb card. :laugh: Like ... Cunning Wish for either bounce, Krosan Grip or Brain Freeze?

I tested a lot during the day, mostly against UGw Threshold and Rwg Goblins (my parents, nonetheless quite good Magic players :eek:).

4/4 tokens are a house! Although a cc7 instant might seem very clunky, you can easily win through Meddling Mage, as well as counterspells. It's like Empty the Warrens in TES or Belcher - you don't need that much business spells for winning, just some acceleration.

My poorly tested sideboard looks like this:

4 Krosan Grip
3 Hunting Pack
1 Hydroblast (Helps against Goblins, as well as fast combo.)
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Wipe Away (Wipe Away, Meddling Mage! Be free!)

[Bahamuth]

Well, I played in a 65 tournament today with the green splash. I went 5-1-1 and ended at the 4th place. Some thoughts:

My sideboard was this:
3 Hunting Pack
3 Spell Snare
2 Twincast
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Echoing Truth
1 Brain Freeze
1 Wipe Away

I'm not sure if the Wipe Away in the board is needed with the Hunting Packs. Really the only thing the card hits is Counterbalance, since Mage shouldn't be much of an issue anymore.

I'm also not sure on the Twincasts. I figured they'd do better than the Spell Snares in the Thresh matchup, but I've got no results yet to prove it. I did play MeatHooks today (I won 2-0) where I ended up producing 12 4/4 tokens and blocking all of his slivers & Mage.

My only loss wat to Dragon Stompy. I seriously hate that deck now, since it was also the deck I lost to at the Belgian Champs. Does anyone have any idea how to board vs. them?

[Blaukreuz]

very nice Bahamuth, you are my favorite dutchman :tongue:

Can you give us a more detailled report about the use of Hunting pack during the tourney?

[Bahamuth]

Well, thing is, I only boarded them in in one match, which was the CounterSliver matchup. I eventually had to wish for a Hunting Pack tough, fighting trough a mage, a FoW and a Spell Snare, but it did work out.

Let's see, I used the Hunting pack as a kill a couple of times. The first was game 1 vs. Pikula, where I had enough mana available for Hunting Pack, giving me about 5 tokens i think.

The other situation was way more fun. My opponent did this: Turn 1 Toughtseize, Turn 2 Toughtseize, Turn 3 Chalice at one, Turn 4 Chalice at two. He then proceeds to do absolutely nothing relevant for like 8 turns (he couln't play Goyf/any beater). I eventually went Cunning Wish --> Turnabout, Opt (for storm), Cunning Wish --> Hunting Pack.

Once again, I did not relaly get the opportunity to test it out enough, but what I do know, is that it will highly increase your chance vs. CounterSlivers if your opponent doesn't know about it.


Please let me hear your opinions, and please tell me how you usually board vs. Dragon Stompy.

[Shimster]

Please let me hear your opinions, and please tell me how you usually board vs. Dragon Stompy.
I am definitely going to test Hunting Pack in February (either in Dülmen or in Iserlohn, the two larger Legacy tournaments in Germany, ~ 70 to 80 competitors), as I am on vacation during January. :frown:

I haven't played yet vs. Dragon Stompy competitively, but in theory it appears to be a very tough matchup. On the one hand, you have to avoid fetchlands because of their Blood Moon effects. On the other hand, they have got a pretty decent clock, so wishing for Rebuild doesn't seem to be fast enough.

As Dragon Stompy is Tacosnape's petdeck, I would like to hear his qualified comments on this topic. :laugh:

[Blaukreuz]

the Dragon Stompy Matchup is not good, but okay. Their Blood Moon effects are not that devastating to us.

I would definitly board in some bounce.

Also Hydroblasts are very good. When they come through the chalice they can remove blood moon or kill every threat the Dragon Stompy player has. But most of us dont play hydroblasts anymore since goblin's decline.



I tested Hunting Pack in a row of games and it felt winmore most of the time. In most situations where i was able to cast Hunting Pack, just Brain Freezing was also possible.

[ImAChampion]

What do you mean avoid the fetchlands? Even if they are turned into Mountains...its better than missing a land drop. Did I miss something?

[Shimster]

What do you mean avoid the fetchlands? Even if they are turned into Mountains...its better than missing a land drop. Did I miss something?
Since your Cunning Wishes are limited, you can either wish for Rebuild (3sphere, CotV) or random bounce (moon effects). As you normally want to dispose their artifacts, you have to "avoid" fetchlands. Just crack them in response to the Blood Moon/Magus.

[ImAChampion]

Since your Cunning Wishes are limited, you can either wish for Rebuild (3sphere, CotV) or random bounce (moon effects). As you normally want to dispose their artifacts, you have to "avoid" fetchlands. Just crack them in response to the Blood Moon/Magus.Gotcha.

[Tacosnape]

As Dragon Stompy is Tacosnape's petdeck, I would like to hear his qualified comments on this topic. :laugh:

Strange that you mention this considering in my local metagame, Solidarity is viewed as my pet deck. Strangely I haven't played this match as much as I'd like despite owning both decks, but here are some general points on it.

1. Don't Force Trinisphere. You don't Force Trinisphere against Stax, and you don't Force Trinisphere against Dragon Stompy. You may argue, well, what if they've got a Pit Dragon or a Chalice to follow it up? The answer, which a lot of people miss, is that you wouldn't have been able to Force those anyway if you spent the Force on the Trinisphere. The only time I'll Force a Trinisphere is if I'm one land drop away from comboing off, if my opponent already has a major threat on the board and I didn't have the Force for it, if I have -two- Forces I'm prepared to play, or if I have one land down, it's the opponent's first play, and I'm holding two Remands (Meaning you'll be able to Remand-walk their next two plays, which is a solid situation.) It's also worth noting that if you get to the point of having five land down, it's easy to go off through Trinisphere. I recommend practicing goldfishing with a Trinisphere in play, without bouncing it, to anyone who hasn't before.

2. Do Force Arc Slogger, Rakdos Pit Dragon, and sometimes Gathan Raiders. Dragon Stompy's Goldfish is quick. Very often if Dragon Stompy power accelerates into Arc-Slogger via Seething Songs and SSG's, a well-timed Force will buy you a couple turns while they try to fix their manabase. Sometimes it won't and they'll just curve into Gathan Raiders and Pit Dragon, but that's magic.

3. Hunt a Cunning Wish and play the Rebuild plan if you can. Going off on turn 5 isn't as hard as you'd think against Dragon Stompy if they've spent their time playing Chalices and Trinispheres. You can Cunning Wish at the end of turn three, Rebuild at the end of four, and kill them before their next attack step, if all goes well. Often you'll need to make it a Stroke kill (Or a Turnabout on their creatures) at this point, because it's not uncommon to be near death at this point.

4. Board in Echoing Truth in addition to Wipe Away, but leave Rebuild as the bounce of choice in your sideboard. I made this mistake once against Stax when my Stax-wielding teammate Chaliced for 1 and 3 and I was left without any recourse whatsoever. A smart player, even a smart Dragon Stompy player, will keep this option open despite the high 3CC curve in the deck. The Echoing Truth would have saved me in this scenario. I generally board in one Echo and one Wipe (I'd board in a second Wipe if I ran it.) These will help you keep their large threats and their disruption off the board.

5. Use Brainstorms and crack fetchlands early. This is pretty obvious, but Blood Moon is annoying if it comes down too fast.

6. Hydroblast is risky. This is where I need more testing experience to decide if I'd board it in or not. It seems like every time I board in Hydroblast, the very first thing I face is Chalice for 1. And it seems like every time I -don't-, I end up facing a turn one Pit Dragon or Magus of the Moon while holding Fetchlands. Test this and draw your own conclusions.

7. Don't panic. Chalice aggro is never great for Solidarity, but fate eventually strikes down inconsistent decks, and Dragon Stompy, as much as I love it, is inconsistent. Any time they get a less than explosive draw, an experienced Solidarity player can capitalize.

[Bahamuth]

Strange that you mention this considering in my local metagame, Solidarity is viewed as my pet deck.

So is it for me. I've been wondering about this by the way. How many people still play this deck? How many Solidarity players do you usually see at a tournament?

To answer my own question, at the last two tournaments (69 and 130 participants) I went to, there were 2 Solidarity players, including me. Solidarity has never been really huge around here tough, so perhaps it's different in other parts of the world.

[Blaukreuz]

how do you guys board and play against Cephalid Breakfast?
I found it a fucking hard matchup, because they are faster than you and have nice disruption (FoW, Abeyance, Cabal Therapy,..) to protect their combo.

[Tacosnape]

Alright, well, I pulled a 1st Place with Solidarity again, beating BGW Rock, 4C Landstill, Burn, Pox, Train Wreck in the semis, and then BGW Rock again in the finals.

Here's my drastically modernized list, complete with all kinds of highly violated canon Solidarity Principles.

12 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Impulse
4 Peer Through Depths
3 Meditate
4 Cunning Wish

4 Force of Will
4 Remand

3 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
1 Brain Freeze

SB:
3 Hydroblast
2 Twincast
2 Disrupt
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stroke of Genius
1 High Tide
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout

First things first, Disrupt in the sideboard is strictly a metagame call. There's a ton of discard and a ton of land destruction in my metagame, and Disrupt is a monster in this setup. In a more blue metagame, these would either be additional Wipes/Echoes, or more likely Orim's Chant in a white splash.

Peer Through Depths has been the biggest change I've made. It started in place of Flash of Insight, which was feeling a turn too slow and a mana too expensive with the format being sped up. I loved it, and I've gradually gone up to first three, and now four. Peer Through Depths has made my combos almost never fail (Although I did completely misfire one game Saturday, but the fizzle rate is still less than usual.)

Cutting the Tide was a decision I made experimentally. With the additional draw in Peer Through Depths, I was running into far less situations where I needed to Cunning Wish at the end of turn three for Meditate, and a few less where I needed an untap spell. More and more I found I was missing Tide at this point if anything, because often I have to Impulse or Cantrip for lands on the first couple turns. So I swapped it for a fourth Wish to enable Wish to fetch me any combo piece I need to be ready to combo out on turn 4 if need be. I'm still not positive about this change, though it's been pretty good so far.

The single maindeck Freeze makes me cringe, as my comfort zone with less than two is very low, especially with the inability to move it from my graveyard to the RFG zone now that Flash of Insight is gone. However, as of yet, even playing against Duress/Seize/Extirpate packing decks, it hasn't yet come back to bite me in the ass.

BGW Rock was my first match, and I got it 2-1. Game one he only had one Thoughtseize, and I was able to recover and combo out around turn five. Game two he unloaded on me with five discard spells and a Witness. Game three I got stuck on one land after whiffing on two Opts, then I get my land Vindicated. I Force a Hierarch, then I topdeck lands for a few turns, get them Vindicated, and topdeck more. He goes Witness/Vindicate, gets about six hits with the Witness down and morphs an Exalted, but I'm able to combo off just in time.

4C Landstill was a pushover. Game one his first four land drops are all Factories (?!), and I manage to combo out with Force backup before I get destroyed. Game two his first four land drops are all Tropical Islands (Wtf?). I Remand Fact or Fiction twice, and combo off through his hand full of Mages and Extirpates.

Burn I outraced all three games thanks to Force, Remand, and Hydroblast. I somehow fail my combo game 2 after boarding out too many Peer Through Depths for Hydroblasts, as I Meditate into Land/Land/Blast/Blast, then Opt into Force/Land and fizzle out. Games 1 and 3 go well, though.

Against LoamPox I got slaughtered game one by Hymns, Seizes, etc. I pull Game 2 out after having Reset Cranial Extractioned (Who the hell runs that in Pox?) when he can't find a kill condition other than a turn seven Treetop Village and I have several turns to recover. Game three I Disrupt a Sinkhole, then chain three Remands on Hymns and Sinkholes while he's stuck at three black mana. When I run out of Remands, I just kill him.

Train Wreck was an auto-cruise in the Semifinals. I Force a Hymn on both games and then I win in response to Haunting Echoes both games. He doesn't draw Seize or Extirpate at all. BGW Rock went similarly well. I don't remember much about it because I was sleepy at this point. I do remember chaining Impulse/Peer Through Depths five times in a row during my final combo.

So there you have it. I'll continue to test the High Tide-in-sideboard thing and let you guys know how it works.

[Bahamuth]

Awesome. It's a good thing you're trying out new things.

To be honest, I don't really like Peer Trough Depths. I belive one of the most important strenghts of Solidarity is that it gives your opponent little to no information at all.

If you're not playing Flash of Insight, I'd say cutting a Freeze is absolutely the right call. Especially with 4 Wishes in the mainboard, Freeze is nothing more than a kill, which you only need to find at the very end of your combo. I remain playing Flash of Insight tough, because I still think it's a real powerhouse. It makes Brain Freeze a draw spell, and, depending on the situation tough, a much more powerful one.

I don't know what to think about the Tide in the sideboard. I'm not a big fan of 4 Wish in the mainboard.

Have you tried out Hunting Pack already?

[ClearSkies]

I tried Solidarity in my local tournament and I got 1-2. (At least I got to play in a tournament) This was yesterday, so I am just trying to remember from notes.

Anyways, the list was the same as Tacosnape because I wanted to test it also.

First match: Some kind of U/B CB-top Counter/Discard deck.

Game 1: I didn't see any discard or counterspells, and I win.
Game 2: he Duress me first turn and then a counterbalance/top in the next two turns, and I couldn't get it off the table.
Game 3: he uses multiple duress, hymn, and to finish off with counterbalance/top.

Some thoughts:
I should have put more disrupt in my sideboard, it would seem like a really good answer to those mass discard.

Second match: Some pile of 60-cards with maindecked Ivory Mask being the only threat.

Moving on. (Sadly, this is the only match I won the whole day)

Third Match: Mono-blue Control (with 3x Morphlings as win-conditions)
Game 1: Waited for an opportunity for him to tap out most of his mana, and then I tried to combo off, and did.
Game 2: He started out with a Sensei's Diving Top and shape his hand with counterspells. Just couldn't get pass his counter spells, and kind of rushed it when I thought there was an opportunity, which caused me to fizzled. (Time was called here too...)

Some thoughts:
Twincast ended up pretty nice against other mono-blue control decks.
I was afraid of casting High Tide against it. (Is that supposed to be right tactic?)
I kind of miss Flash of Insight in the very late game like that. With his hand getting more and more counterspells, should I have just waited till he played an actual win-condition? I was also trying to play around the 4x Trickbind in game 2 too. What are other tactics against MUC a Solidarity player has besides splashing?

[Bahamuth]

I kind of miss Flash of Insight in the very late game like that. With his hand getting more and more counterspells, should I have just waited till he played an actual win-condition? I was also trying to play around the 4x Trickbind in game 2 too. What are other tactics against MUC a Solidarity player has besides splashing?

I find it hard to find the right time to combo as well. It's usually best to either wait for him to play a win condition, since he taps mana at that point, which probably means less counters. If you're not going to wait until the win condition, or if the wincondition is already in play, remember to play your High Tide and eventually some other spells in your opponents upkeep, before he draws his card, which might be a potential counter.

I've been playing a thirth Brain Freeze in the mainboard. I really think it's really useful. It helps you fight trough a counterwall, and it fuctions as a very strong draw spell.

[ClearSkies]

Wouldn't High Tide give more mana to a MUC for him to counter my stuff? (Assume that his hand = my hand in size and all counters.) Or am I suppose to not care since it benefits me also?

[Bahamuth]

Wouldn't High Tide give more mana to a MUC for him to counter my stuff? (Assume that his hand = my hand in size and all counters.) Or am I suppose to not care since it benefits me also?

True. It depends on the situation. You could try to win without a Tide, which is very possible with the time MUC gives you. You could also try to Turnabout their lands first.

[Van Phanel]

Playing against Mono-U is a harder than playing against Landstill, as Mono-U has way less dead cards and all his lands are Islands. Still it's a rather good matchup as long as you know what you are doing.

However it's very hard to give a description of the matchup as you have to change your plans according to the situation all the time. Some general things can be said:

- Play Flash of Insight. It makes your handsize eight instead of seven (seems obvious). Of course if it is to slow for your meta, you have to cut your losses and throw it out. I'm not quite fond of Taco's change as the Flash's turn Brain Freezes into cantrips, but time (and testing) will tell, if it's actually a good idea.

- Play Twincast. It acts as whatever you need (hm, that was obvious again :smile: ).

- Don't hold to many High Tides. One should be enough all the time unless you want to go off in your own EOT when he tries to play carddraw. The problem is that every card counts and even if High Tide produces mana, it's one less relevant card you hold.

- Try to always Remand your own spells when he tries to counter them. Trading <random spell> + Remand for two hardcounters is generally good for you. Especially Turnabout targeting him during his second mainphase stands out here as he generally has to counter it (don't be afraid of doing this as a bluff, but don't do it all the time either!). Then when he has less counters resolve a Meditate.

- If you can avoid it, never try comboing if you would lose to him countering your carddraw. If you trade Untaps for Counters, that's ok. But you only have four Meditates, so make sure they resolve.

- Be greedy with your Forces. More often than not Meditate is the only spell that is worth it. In this matchup you don't want carddisadvantage at all.

- Think Twice is huge as it practically can't be countered. However it's slowness in other matchups won't help. (see Flash of Insight)


That said, remember Bahamuth's words:


It depends on the situation.

This sentence is generally true in magic, but even more so when talking about Solidarity. My post is just there to give some ideas, but you still have to think for yourself.

Hope I could help

- Van

[lesly]

how are the testing results so far with hunting pack now bahamuth?

[Bahamuth]

how are the testing results so far with hunting pack now bahamuth?

Well.....I'm not playing them anymore. I have a good reason for it tough. The meta in The Netherlands and Belgium isn't quite the one I need it to be for my green splash. I've noticed more and more people playing Dragon Stompy, while Pikula and Sui Black are still popular. I don't think it's a good idea to run them right now.

I'm still not sure how good they are. I noticed that, if your opponent expects this card, he'll have a much easier time playing around it (Reset becomes way more important).

I played a local tournament yesterday by the way with Solidarity and I took the first place, which was a Badlands. I beat Armageddon Stax, Goyf Sligh and Aluren.

[Benie Bederios]

To answer my own question, at the last two tournaments (69 and 130 participants) I went to, there were 2 Solidarity players, including me. Solidarity has never been really huge around here tough, so perhaps it's different in other parts of the world.

Make that three in the near future:wink: I picked up a playset of Reset's.

Although I was fairly good with Spring Tide there are alot changes with this deck. I want to explore alot. I have some questions.

First of all the Skeleton, wich cards are definitly needed. I would think something like this.

12 Islands
6 Fetches

4 Reset
4 Force of Will
3 Cunning Wish
4 High Tide
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse

Is this correct, or are there other cards that are definitly needed too?

For splashes, why would you splash another color. and how many duals would you play.

Green: Hunting Pack, Krosan Grip and Quirion Dryad.

Red: Red Elemental Blast, Urza's Rage.

Black: Skeletal Scrying???

White: Orim's Chant, Disenchant, Abeyance.

More questions comming up..

Thanks in advance

[Bahamuth]

Make that three in the near future:wink: I picked up a playset of Reset's.

Although I was fairly good with Spring Tide there are alot changes with this deck. I want to explore alot. I have some questions.

First of all the Skeleton, wich cards are definitly needed. I would think something like this.

12 Islands
6 Fetches

4 Reset
4 Force of Will
3 Cunning Wish
4 High Tide
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse

Is this correct, or are there other cards that are definitly needed too?

For splashes, why would you splash another color. and how many duals would you play.

Green: Hunting Pack, Krosan Grip and Quirion Dryad.

Red: Red Elemental Blast, Urza's Rage.

Black: Skeletal Scrying???

White: Orim's Chant, Disenchant, Abeyance.

More questions comming up..

Thanks in advance

I'd add at least 3 Remand, 2 Brain Freeze and at least 2 Opt. There really isn't that much room left in this deck, unless you want to play a card that replaces one of the above.

You're right about the splash cards. You might want to play StP in your sideboard if splashing white. Disenchant doesn't seem that usefull to me.

I do think, as I stated in my last post, that it's a better idea not to splash right now in our meta with Dragon Stompy upcoming and not too much blue-based aggro-control.

[xsockmonkeyx]

12 Islands
6 Fetches

4 Reset
4 Force of Will
3 Cunning Wish
4 High Tide
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse

Is this correct, or are there other cards that are definitly needed too?


2 Brainfreeze, 2 Flash of Insight, and some amount of Remand and Opt are also usual suspects.

[Benie Bederios]

Hi,

I did some field research. I searched Germagic.de for all Solidarity lists of this and last year and compared them.

These are the results of the Maindeck


xxxxxxxxx 2 Brainfreeze
xxxxxxxxx 4 Brainstorm
xxxxxxxxx 2 Cunning Wish
xxx xxx x 3rd Cunning Wish
x 1 Echoing Truth
xxxxxxxxx 1 Flash of Insight
x xxxxxxx 2nd Flash of Insight
xxxxxxxxx 6 fetchlands
x 7th fetchland
xxxxxxxxx 4 Force of Will
xxxxxxxxx 4 Impulse
xxxxxxxxx 3 Meditate
x xx x 4th Meditate
xxxxxxxxx 4 High Tide
xxxxxxxxx 2 Opt
xxx x 3rd Opt
x x x 4th Opt
x x xx 2 Peek
xxxxxxxxx 4 Remand
xxxxxxxxx 4 Reset
xxxxxxxxx 10 Island
xxxxxxxx 11th Island
xx xxxxx 12th Island
x 2 Volcanic Island
x 3 Think Twice
xxxxxxxxx 3 Turnabout
x x xx x 1 Twincast
x 3rd Twincast

With this result the Skeleton looks like this

2 Brainfreeze
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
1 Flash of Insight
6 Fetchlands
4 Force of Will
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
4 High Tide
2 Opt
4 Remand
4 Reset
11 Island( Volcanic Island counted as Island)
3 Turnabout

These are already 54 cards, giving us only 6 to play with. Some are obvious aditions. Here are the possibilities from common to rare.


12th Island 8
2nd Flash of Insight 8
3rd Cunning Wish 6
1 Twincast 5
2 Peek 4
4th Meditate 4
3rd Opt 4
4th Opt 3
1 Echoing Truth 1
7th Fetchland 1
3 Think Twice 1
3rd Twincast 1

Anyway If you want to build the 'average' deck with these numbers you will get.

2 Brainfreeze
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight
4 Force of Will
4 Impulse
3/4 Meditate
4 High Tide
2/3 Opt
0/2 Peek
4 Remand
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
1 Twincast

12 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

If you use the same strategy for the SB this would mean.


xxxxxxxx 1 Brainfreeze
xxx x 2nd Brainfreeze
x xx x 1 Chain of Vapor
xx x xx 2 Disrupt
x x x 3rd Disrupt
x x 4th Disrupt
xxxxxxx x 1 Echoing Truth
x 1 Gaea's Blessing
x x 1 Hurkyl's Recall
x x xx x 1 Meditate
x 1 Misdirection
x 1 Mystical Tutor
xxxx xx 1 Rebuild
x x 4 Spellsnare
x 1 Starstorm
xx 1 Stifle
xxxxxxxxx 1 Stroke of Genius
x 1 Sudden Shock
xxxxxxxxx 1 Turnabout
x x 3 Twincast
x 1 Urza's Rage
x 1 Visions Skeins
x xxx x 1 Wipe Away
x 4th Wipe Away
x xxxx 1 Words of Wisdom

Of course some cards are Metagame choices. But the skeleton of the SB would be

1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout

The rest from common to rare.


1 Brainfreeze 8
1 Rebuild 6
2 Disrupt 5
1 Meditate 5
1 Words of Wisdom 5
1 Wipe Away 5
2nd Brainfreeze 4
1 Chain of Vapor 3
3rd Disrupt 3
4th Disrupt 2
4 Spellsnare 2
1 Hurkyl's Recall 2
1 Stifle 2
3 Twincast 2
1 Gaea's Blessing 1
1 Misdirection 1
1 Mystical Tutor 1
1 Starstorm 1
1 Sudden Shock 1
1 Urza's Rage 1
1 Visions Skeins 1
4th Wipe Away 1

So an 'average' Sideboard would look like this

1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
2 Brainfreeze
1 Rebuild
3/4 Disrupt
0/1 Meditate( depends on the MD)
1 Words of Wisdom
1 Wipe Away
1 Chain of Vapor
0/4 Spellsnare
0/1 Hurky's Recall
0/1 Srifle
0/3 Twincast

So in short. There are already 54 cards in the MD that are needed.
Of the six left, two of them are lands, so you actually have 4 cards left. 1 Twincast and the 3rd Cunning Wishes are the most solid choices and the rest is a combination of drawspells.

In the SB there are only 2 cards auto-include, but Brainfreeze and Rebuild are pretty solid too( each deck that doesn't play Rebuild, played Hurkyl's Recall.

Is this a good conclusion or did I used to few sources?

Why do some people play 4 MD Meditates instead of the 3/1 split MD SB?

[Taurelin]

Interesting resarch. It seems that you invested a lot of time and work doing that!

The - as you call it - skeleton and the average deck look indeed rather fixed. If you want to play Solidarity, there's not much space for individual experiments. The only questions you can ask yourself are

- whether you splash red (notice that only one player did, and notice that no other splash color appears!)
- whether you prefer Peek or Opt
- whether you play 3 or 4 Meditate and/or Twincast main

These are answered according top personal preferences or the expected metagame.



What I find more interesting are some strange observations regarding the Sideboard.

- Why does nobody play Hydroblasts? Are Goblins really non-existent anymore? And what about other red hate that Burn, Dragon Stompy or even NQG/r bring along?

- Why do so many people play Disrupt?

- Why do people still choose cards which are generally considered superfluous (Words of Wisdom), bad (Mystical Tutor) or terrible (Visions Skeins)?

What is also obvious is that a variety of Bounce is needed for different situations. Rebuild, Echoing Truth (missing in the list with numbers) and Wipe Away seem to be the strongest, since they get rid of Chalices, Trinispheres respectively Counterbalance, MM and the like.



Another question is why there are no results regarding Spell Snare in the main deck. Does this mean that such a choice to fight Chalic@1, Counterbalance and so on has not been considered by tournament players, or has it been tried but not proven succesful so there are no Top8 results with this?

[Bahamuth]

Interesting resarch. It seems that you invested a lot of time and work doing that!

The - as you call it - skeleton and the average deck look indeed rather fixed. If you want to play Solidarity, there's not much space for individual experiments. The only questions you can ask yourself are

- whether you splash red (notice that only one player did, and notice that no other splash color appears!)
- whether you prefer Peek or Opt
- whether you play 3 or 4 Meditate and/or Twincast main

These are answered according top personal preferences or the expected metagame.



What I find more interesting are some strange observations regarding the Sideboard.

- Why does nobody play Hydroblasts? Are Goblins really non-existent anymore? And what about other red hate that Burn, Dragon Stompy or even NQG/r bring along?

- Why do so many people play Disrupt?

- Why do people still choose cards which are generally considered superfluous (Words of Wisdom), bad (Mystical Tutor) or terrible (Visions Skeins)?

What is also obvious is that a variety of Bounce is needed for different situations. Rebuild, Echoing Truth (missing in the list with numbers) and Wipe Away seem to be the strongest, since they get rid of Chalices, Trinispheres respectively Counterbalance, MM and the like.



Another question is why there are no results regarding Spell Snare in the main deck. Does this mean that such a choice to fight Chalic@1, Counterbalance and so on has not been considered by tournament players, or has it been tried but not proven succesful so there are no Top8 results with this?

I don't find, at least in European meta, Hydroblast to be unnecessary. Goblins is seriously on the decline and Burn is also practically unexistent. I don't think boarding in Hydroblast vs. Dragon Stompy or Red Thresh is a good idea.

I'm not sure on Disrupt. I don't like it either. I suppose it's good vs. Pikula-ish decks, which are played a lot around here. I've been playing Spell Snare for quite some time already, which in my opinion is more versatile and can be boarded in vs. more decks.

I don't know either why people still bring cards like Words of Wisdom or Vision Skeins. I do think the Mystical Tutor is the board isn't as bad as it seems. I can really help to give your hand the possiblility to fight through counters or find (another) High Tide.

You're right about the bounce spells. I've been playing both Rebuild and Wipe Away as a wish-target for quite some time, and right now I'm actually playing 3 Echoing Truth in the sideboard. It's my solution to Dragon Stompy. Obviously it comes in vs. decks like TES and Belcher too, where it can randomly steal games, but it's also very good vs. Ichorid, where a well-placed Echoing Truth can buy you numberous turns.

I played 2 Spell Snare in my mainboard when I got into the top 8 of the Belgian champs, but that list doesn't seem to be on there. Playing Spell Snares in the mainboard is probably going to force you to cut at least 2 Opts/Peeks from your mainboard. This is the reason I decided to cut them out again. Opts feel necessary to me, since mana screw will happen a lot more often if you're not playing them.

[Chippo]

@Bahamuth

Your list on the Belgian Champs was the following:

Main Deck
Brain Freeze 2
Brainstorm 4
Cunning Wish 3
Flash of Insight 2
Force of Will 4
High Tide 4
Impulse 4
Meditate 3
Opt 3
Remand 4
Reset 4
Spell Snare 2
Turnabout 3

Flooded Strand 3
Island 12
Polluted Delta 3

Sideboard
Brain Freeze 1
Echoing Truth 1
Hydroblast 3
Meditate 1
Rebuild 1
Spell Snare 2
Stroke of Genius 1
Turnabout 1
Twincast 2
Wipe Away 2

Glad to help you out :smile:

[FredMaster]

I've seen a list on my local tournament once, which ran a red splash for second win option:
A Twincasted Urza's Rage ^^

I think he was kind of sucessful, well as sucessful, as Solidarity can be in these times :rolleyes:
What do you think about the idea?

[Team-Hero]

I've seen a list on my local tournament once, which ran a red splash for second win option:
A Twincasted Urza's Rage ^^

I think he was kind of sucessful, well as sucessful, as Solidarity can be in these times :rolleyes:
What do you think about the idea?

I like it. Don't see what you can cut for it, but I like it.

[Taurelin]

That idea is already a year old, you can find it in this thread, post 1097.
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=617&page=55

There you can also see what to cut and what a complete red SB looks like.

[Benie Bederios]

As you can see, on of the decks I found did this too.

It's probably the best splash atm, but Meddling Mage( the main reason to play the splash) isn't such a house anymore.

I do have one question: Why is Twincast played as three-off in some sideboards? In wich matchups do you board them in and for what purpose.

At the moment this is my list. It's pretty basic and I'm going to test some mayor changes.

3 Flooded Strand
12 Island
3 Polluted Delta

2 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
3 Opt
1 Peek
4 Remand
4 Reset
1 Twincast
3 Turnabout

Sideboard
2 Brainfreeze
3 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Psionic Blast
1 Rebuild
4 Spell Snare
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Wipe Away

Nothing special in the MD. I to often found Peek a dead draw, so I decided to play the 3/1 split.

In the SB I play three Echoing Truth and 4 Spellsnare for boarding in. I'm not very impressed by the Psionic Blast and the second Brainfreeze( I rarely board it in) but had some space left. I definatly going to try out Taco's build too. I like it when someone tries something completely difference.

BB

[arsenalpow]

I always considered peek to be subpar, imo 4x Opt is the only way to play the deck. It needs to be able to dig as deep as possible.

[GreenOne]

In the SB I play three Echoing Truth and 4 Spellsnare for boarding in. I'm not very impressed by the Psionic Blast and the second Brainfreeze( I rarely board it in) but had some space left.

I'd play Wipe Away istead of the 2nd brainfreeze all day cause it helps greatly vs counterbalance, and CB is one of the major problems nowadays.

Twincast was played as sort of counterspell in the threshold matchup before counterbalance grew strong. It was great at speeding up the combo, it wasn't a dead draw midcomb (like spell snare is) and it allowed great tech to go infinite vs Ill-Gotten Gains. It was generally good when there were lot of things on the stack, thing that tend to happen quite often with this deck.

[noobslayer]

I've seen a list on my local tournament once, which ran a red splash for second win option:
A Twincasted Urza's Rage ^^

I think he was kind of sucessful, well as sucessful, as Solidarity can be in these times :rolleyes:
What do you think about the idea?

Gearhart did this like, over a year ago.

I have to ask the question though, as much as I love this deck, why still play it? There are better decks, combo decks in particular, that fill the niche in the metagame better.

[FredMaster]

I have to ask the question though, as much as I love this deck, why still play it? There are better decks, combo decks in particular, that fill the niche in the metagame better.
Pssst: Don't say it in here.... it's.... too dangerous. :eek:

[Bahamuth]

Gearhart did this like, over a year ago.

I have to ask the question though, as much as I love this deck, why still play it? There are better decks, combo decks in particular, that fill the niche in the metagame better.

I tend to disagree. The faster combo that's been around is probably better right now, but I think there are several matchups where Solidarity will perform better than those decks. Examples are obviously Landstill and I think Dragon Stompy too (not sure here).

[ImAChampion]

I play the deck still because it was the first deck I played when getting into Legacy. I have sense put together several other Legacy decks...but I just can't bring myself to ripping this one up.

[noobslayer]

I'm not going to lie. I used to play this decka lot, just scroll back through the forum and check. Put simply, your forces and fetchlands are better spent in oh say, threshold.

[Benie Bederios]

It really depends on the meta. Sure if all decks you encounter are Thresh, Breakfast and Ichorid, you better of with another (combo) deck. But in a less developed meta, with lots of aggro, stax and dedicated control, this is the best deck to play.

This deck still races most aggro decks and has by far the best tools to deal with control.
The deck is also almost imuun for the most played manadisruption( Moon and Wasteland) and is for except maybe Breakfast the most consitent. The advantage of this deck over Breakfast is, that it's alot harder to hate out, and doesn't have alot splash hate.

You don't hear me asking how to help my Ichorid or Counterbalance Thresh matchup. Those to are almost autolosses, so if my meta was drenched with them, I would probably play Armageddon Stax or something two beat the hell out of both of them.

I just want top optimize the list for my meta and that is possible.

So yeah, it might not be as powerfull as it used to be, but it's still a decent tier 2 deck.

BB

[GreenOne]

You don't hear me asking how to help my Ichorid or Counterbalance Thresh matchup. Those to are almost autolosses

I almost never tested the Ichorid matchup (non-existant here), but CB thresh is far from unwinnable if you side in a decent amount of Wipe Aways and Spell Snares.

[Bahamuth]

I almost never tested the Ichorid matchup (non-existant here), but CB thresh is far from unwinnable if you side in a decent amount of Wipe Aways and Spell Snares.

Agreed. Also, I did test the Ichorid matchup and it's really not all that bad. You have to get a bit lucky, but if you manage to FoW their discard-outlet, they will usually be really slow. The deck is very inconsistent, and especially with Echoing Truth's in the sideboard, it's really not that hard to be faster.

[Benie Bederios]

I sais almost an autoloss.

Don't be silly. Thresh is no where near 50/50, I think it's about 30/70( which I find an autoloss) and even if you board in Spell Snares and Wipe Away's, your still in for a though matchup. They have 8 spells to force a Counterbalance through and Tarmagoyf is a very decent clock. There cantrip engine is almost just as good as yours. Even if you play absolutly perfect, they still could force through a Counterbalance. Your only out will be Wipe Away then, but try to find him when your Brainstorms and Impulse are countered.

Ichorid is winnable against a bad pilot. They have until turn 3 to Therapy you for your High Tides or Echoing Truth's. This matchup is also near 65/35 in there advantage at least.

Be honest, if you would play in a meta where those two decks where running rampart, would you play Solidarity?

BB

[Bahamuth]

Be honest, if you would play in a meta where those two decks where running rampart, would you play Solidarity?

Yup, I would. I see it as a challenge to beat any Threshold player. Ichorid is kind of lame tough...

[GreenOne]

Be honest, if you would play in a meta where those two decks where running rampart, would you play Solidarity?

I'd never play combo decks in such a meta, so I see no point. CB thresh is more like 40-60 or 45-55 if they don't MD Balance. Seems not that bad.

[ImAChampion]

I know that Bound // Determined and Abeyance have been discussed before but...in a Threshold / Counterbalance filled environment...wouldn't either of these make that matchup slightly more winnable? Determined would prevent the rest of your spells from being hit by counterbalance because it prevents abilites as well. However...Abeyance is not a dead card mid-combo because it cantrips. I think that we should bring these cards back up into discussion.

[Taurelin]

Determined would prevent the rest of your spells from being hit by counterbalance because it prevents abilites as well. However...

In order to do so, it first has to pass CB itself. And since CB is most often set @CC1 and CC2, it will probably be affected, too, and thus not be able to protect the rest of your spells.

[Bahamuth]

Looking on GerMagic, I found these two new lists:

3 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Meditate
2 Opt
3 Remand
4 Reset
2 Stroke of Genius
2 Think Twice
3 Turnabout

land [18]
3 Flooded Strand
10 Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
4 Disrupt
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Starstorm
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Sudden Shock
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Turnabout
2 Twincast
1 Urza's Rage
1 Wipe Away


2 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
3 Opt
2 Peek
4 Remand
4 Reset
1 Stroke of Genius
3 Turnabout

4 Flooded Strand
10 Island
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:

4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Brain Freeze
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Rushing River
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Trickbind
1 Turnabout
1 Words of Wisdom

Does anyone have an idea what those Strokes of Genius might be for? I could see them working as simple draw spells that can function as a kill as well, but I doubt it would be any better than Meditate or Thirst for Knowledge.

[Taurelin]

Does anyone have an idea what those Strokes of Genius might be for? I could see them working as simple draw spells that can function as a kill as well, but I doubt it would be any better than Meditate or Thirst for Knowledge.

Well we all know the function of having 1 Stroke in the Sideboard. I guess they serve the same function main: like you said, drawing massive amounts of cards or killing your opponent with lethal damage on the stack.

The only questions are:
a) Why play multiples?
b) Why play them main?

The answer to b might be that you become less dependent on Cunning Wish. You can reserve them for getting SB solutions vs hate and you can bait counters if you play your kill options main.

If this is correct, then you can also answer a. Playing multiples helps to actually get them when you need them via normal cantripping/drawing.


In the first list that you posted, however, I personally don't like the 3 Brain Freeze main, which together with the 2 Strokes take a lot of space. Since it's the red version (incl. Think Twice), I guess the player expected lots of Thresh in his meta. Maybe he thought "How would I side vs Thresh?" and decided to play the answer-list main.

The second list only contains 1 Stroke main together wih 2 Brain Freeze, which looks quite reasonable. I don't like some of the SB choices (H's Recall, WoW), but that's a different story.

[Bahamuth]

Well we all know the function of having 1 Stroke in the Sideboard. I guess they serve the same function main: like you said, drawing massive amounts of cards or killing your opponent with lethal damage on the stack.

The only questions are:
a) Why play multiples?
b) Why play them main?

The answer to b might be that you become less dependent on Cunning Wish. You can reserve them for getting SB solutions vs hate and you can bait counters if you play your kill options main.

If this is correct, then you can also answer a. Playing multiples helps to actually get them when you need them via normal cantripping/drawing.


In the first list that you posted, however, I personally don't like the 3 Brain Freeze main, which together with the 2 Strokes take a lot of space. Since it's the red version (incl. Think Twice), I guess the player expected lots of Thresh in his meta. Maybe he thought "How would I side vs Thresh?" and decided to play the answer-list main.

The second list only contains 1 Stroke main together wih 2 Brain Freeze, which looks quite reasonable. I don't like some of the SB choices (H's Recall, WoW), but that's a different story.

Stroke might function as a carddrawer in mid-combo, and it might function as a kill, but I seriously doubt that is enough reason to maindeck them. The card only produces cardadvantage at 5- or more mana, which way too much. Therefore the card is dead in the turns before the combo, which makes it, in my opinion, pretty crappy...

[Soto]

I really haven't read much of what has been going on, but since you had considered Hunting Pack that costs GG, why not just run Tendrils of Agony?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Hunting Pack can be run as a one of in the sideboard for wishing. Tendrils doesn't work with Reset.

[slyfer]

I saw the guy playing the first list posted, he eventually won the tournament (38 people, he was the only solidarity player).
I personally saw him win vs a white threshold having counterbalance in play + 2 force + 1 daze in hand (in play also 1 tarmagoyf).
He managed to play around balance, freezeing in response, meditating, ecc... because there was low board pressure. In fact tarmagoyf is very weak (solidarity has only lands and isntant, so tarmagoyf is often only 2/3 ....).

The metagame is slowing a bit (as a response to beat balance-threshold), so that's why he put 2 think twice (which I like, you have many turn 2 options: remand/think twice... impulse on turn 2 is not very strong play because you will very seldomly win with only 3 lands in play)

So I don't like 3 remand. I want 4.
I don't like 3 freeze. 2 is ok, I never won a game with 2 mini-storm, it's very hard because in the storming process you lose turns by meditating, and you don't have time to recover... The deck wins on big turn 98% of the times.
I don't like more than 1 stroke in maindeck, as other said, it's a dead card until the start of combo.

As regards sideboard, there is a *third* (useless) combo finish. Twincast + urza rage kicked.
It's only a theretic "paranoia" of not being able to win with freeze or stroke.

Starstorm is interesting but risky.... it's a tempo card, but again, you waste resources to just reset the board. Goblin has red blast and the volcanic for red mana is secured by playing in response to wasteland (response take red mana, reset, etc.... so you have RR)
I just prefer to try to win instead of doing that

Red is a good splash by the way.

[Bahamuth]

I saw the guy playing the first list posted, he eventually won the tournament (38 people, he was the only solidarity player).
I personally saw him win vs a white threshold having counterbalance in play + 2 force + 1 daze in hand (in play also 1 tarmagoyf).
He managed to play around balance, freezeing in response, meditating, ecc... because there was low board pressure. In fact tarmagoyf is very weak (solidarity has only lands and isntant, so tarmagoyf is often only 2/3 ....).

The metagame is slowing a bit (as a response to beat balance-threshold), so that's why he put 2 think twice (which I like, you have many turn 2 options: remand/think twice... impulse on turn 2 is not very strong play because you will very seldomly win with only 3 lands in play)

So I don't like 3 remand. I want 4.
I don't like 3 freeze. 2 is ok, I never won a game with 2 mini-storm, it's very hard because in the storming process you lose turns by meditating, and you don't have time to recover... The deck wins on big turn 98% of the times.
I don't like more than 1 stroke in maindeck, as other said, it's a dead card until the start of combo.

As regards sideboard, there is a *third* (useless) combo finish. Twincast + urza rage kicked.
It's only a theretic "paranoia" of not being able to win with freeze or stroke.

Starstorm is interesting but risky.... it's a tempo card, but again, you waste resources to just reset the board. Goblin has red blast and the volcanic for red mana is secured by playing in response to wasteland (response take red mana, reset, etc.... so you have RR)
I just prefer to try to win instead of doing that

Red is a good splash by the way.

That's awesome. It definatrely proves Solidarity can beat anything if it's played well.

I also like 4 Remand, because of the many different uses the card has. Oftenly I find myself hesitant to use it pre-combo, since I know I'm going to need one to either fight trough counters or provide more Brain Freezes.

I think I'm going to try out a Stroke in the mainboard. Especially in a slow metagame I can see it working quite well as a setup card.

I also like the Think Twices. I think the fact that it costs 2 is actually an advantage in a Thresh-heavy meta, since it's less likely to be countered by CB.

I still don't see the use of the red splash right now. I'd rather just play momo-blue really, especially with all the Dragon Stompy around right now.

[slyfer]

The deck can be played mono U, the red splash was historucally for meddling mage (grabbling sudden shock) but
1) meddling mage isn't played any more .... I mean, look at the latest threshold list... many just play red or black as third color so no mage, the others play mage in the side board, no more in maindeck.
2) wipe away, altough mana intensive, is THE bouncer.

Relying on some more cc2 cartrips benefits the "chalice @1" hooser, so that you just land, go, land go....until you wish for bounce and storm in response to his re-play of chalice at@1.

[chokin]

Resolving a High Tide with an active CB Top is a pain...what's the most effective way to fight this? Play drawgo til you get Wish and Wipe? Or go for the small Brain Freezes? If going for a small Brain Freeze, do you just fizzle(from CB Top) some spells and go then hit Freeze? Or do you use your Meditates, counterwar with them, Turnabouts to dodge CB(unless they have Fledgling or Enforcer), and just go that way?

I'm asking for the BEST way to fight Thresh assuming that they have CB and Top online.

[slyfer]

if they have counterbalance + sensei top it's near to impossible, unless they reveal 3 land of the top...
If they have *only* counterbalance, you can try one spell and see what cc is over the top... so if they reveal cc1, you try to go with no problems. It's important to land drop consistently and keeping "gas" in hand. If you play 3 brain freeze it's better.
It also depends on how much clock you have....sometimes goyf, mental note, ponder is 3 turns clock :rolleyes:

[Bahamuth]

Resolving a High Tide with an active CB Top is a pain...what's the most effective way to fight this? Play drawgo til you get Wish and Wipe? Or go for the small Brain Freezes? If going for a small Brain Freeze, do you just fizzle(from CB Top) some spells and go then hit Freeze? Or do you use your Meditates, counterwar with them, Turnabouts to dodge CB(unless they have Fledgling or Enforcer), and just go that way?

I'm asking for the BEST way to fight Thresh assuming that they have CB and Top online.

The only solution we have at the moment is Wishing for a Wipe Away. Perhaps there are more options. I think Hunting Pack did pretty well there, because you barely have to play any spells.

Who knows. There might be some crappy blue card around somewhere which is suited to fight CB, or perhaps one will be printed. At least I keep hoping....

[Nihil Credo]

Repeal is the best maindeckable answer to a resolved Counterbalance that I can think of.

[vanele]

The ways to counter balance i can think of are:
1. Splash green, Reverent Silence/Krosian Grip it when they least expect and go off the following turn.
2. Splash red, grab a six REB side and pray to counter it before it lands.
3. Bounce it and combo off, problem with this is you are probably either wipe awaying eating 3 of your mana or repealing for 3/4 mana. Which in turn, eats away at your mana to be casting a 3cc before combo so if they have any sort of counterspell afterwards you might be done for.
4. Trickbind his top activation and, hope for a land on top/try and play around what shows up.
5. Ramp 4 land (2 trops) and drop Arboria and win the ensuing counter war to laugh as thresh has no answers because who expects enchantments in solidarity!
Edit: Counter balance, what a pun!

[Bahamuth]

Haha, Arboria is awesome. It's quite a good card as well by the way.

It's really a shame Reverent Silence is a sorcery, otherwise it would've been a really fine solution.

[slyfer]

Wizard should print some cards like:

Free-bouncer, instant
3U
return target non land permanent to his owner hand
you can remove a blue card from you hand instead of playing free-bouncer mana cost

By the way if you are under meddling mage, counterbalance + top , there is nothing to do imho

[ImAChampion]

Wizard should print some cards like:

Free-bouncer, instant
3U
return target non land permanent to his owner hand
you can remove a blue card from you hand instead of playing free-bouncer mana cost

By the way if you are under meddling mage, counterbalance + top , there is nothing to do imhoAt that point...its time to shit or get off the pot. If you allow them to get all that down...then you have lost the game anyway.

[technogeek5000]

I have a question... why dont people run 1 cunning wish in the board? If you wish for a cunning wish you can just wish for 1 after another and build up storm because wish removes itself after it is played so you can wish for the first with the second, rinse and repeat (yes i just used the word wish 5 times). This would be great if you have lots of mana and not to much draw. Thoughts?

[BKclassic]

Because SB slots are limited, and if you have that much mana, Stroke of Genius will make winning a certainty.

[ImAChampion]

I have a question... why dont people run 1 cunning wish in the board? If you wish for a cunning wish you can just wish for 1 after another and build up storm because wish removes itself after it is played so you can wish for the first with the second, rinse and repeat (yes i just used the word wish 5 times). This would be great if you have lots of mana and not to much draw. Thoughts?+1 Storm Count at the expense of 3 mana? There are plenty of better options.

[nupert]

+1 Storm Count at the expense of 3 mana? There are plenty of better options.Actually, it increases the stormcount by (amount of mana in pool)/3. One Cunning Wish wishes for the other and so on.

[ImAChampion]

Actually, it increases the stormcount by (amount of mana in pool)/3. One Cunning Wish wishes for the other and so on.3 mana for a +1 Storm doesn't seem worth it.

[LGD]

I have a question... why dont people run 1 cunning wish in the board? If you wish for a cunning wish you can just wish for 1 after another and build up storm because wish removes itself after it is played so you can wish for the first with the second, rinse and repeat (yes i just used the word wish 5 times). This would be great if you have lots of mana and not to much draw. Thoughts?

Probably because as others have noted you only have a limited number of highly valuable sideboard slots and additionally you can do the same trick by getting at least two of your main deck wishes which happily is an event that corresponds quite well with the times that you've generated a bunch of mana and torn through most of your deck. I'm sure there are situations where having one in the board would come up as useful but you really have to ask yourself if those situations are as common or as dire as the situations that other board cards would let you address. After some evalution I think you would find that the answer to that question is a decided "no" and the extra wish in the board is an unneeded "win-more" luxury.

[Bovinious]

If you have that much extra mana and a Wish, you should just Wish for Stroke and Stroke yourself for like 8-12 or something.

[PhanTom_lt]

If you have that much extra mana and a Wish, you should just Wish for Stroke and Stroke yourself for like 8-12 or something.

Yes, stroking yourself for 8-12 (hours) is a great idea.
However, later in the game, if you have no more Meditates or Strokes in the SB, wishing for an already used wish and repeating is an option.

[Tacosnape]

Why would you run a Cunning Wish in board in order to Wish-for-Wish chain when Cunning Wish goes to the RFG zone on its own anyway? Therefore, you just need to play one Cunning Wish, and then when you get a second one, the first Cunning Wish is now a valid target.

Oh, and, Wish for Wish is a horrible idea, just for the record.

[arsenalpow]

Yes, stroking yourself for 8-12 (hours) is a great idea.
However, later in the game, if you have no more Meditates or Strokes in the SB, wishing for an already used wish and repeating is an option.

That is why we run flash of insight. Use the flashback cost to remove stroke and whatever else you need from the game which will allow you to wish it back.

[deadlock]

I dont know if somebody is still interested in the deck, but for me its still the greatest Legacy deck and one of my all time favs.

If so i want to discuss two points (i am asumeing the standard decklist with 1 Twincast, 4 Opt and no Peek).
First of about the inclusion of Remand and Twincast, i like both cards very much, but i have the feeling that they are either for a more 'stack - oriented meta' - combo and controll in the case of Twincast. For Remand its still really strong against many decks, but fails against Counterbalance imo.

The question is, are both still strong enough to warrant a place in the maindeck or is there a better set of cards out there? Spell Snare seems quite good, but its not as flexible as Remand and quite dead during the combo. Therefore i play it as a 4of in the sb.
In my opinion Remand still deserves a maindeck slot, but i am not sure about the single Twincast.

The second point, which could also be posted in the FT thread is, why is Mystical Tutor that good in FT and not in (different) build of High Tide?
My reasoning is that FT can go off faster and isnt that reliant on card advantage, because it is more (direct) tutor based in the form of Infernal Tutor.

The point about Mystical Tutor may has been discussed already in the past, but i was wondering if a High Tide variant that aims for a turn 3 combo could be build with FT card choices as a guide. Meaning a splash for one or two colours, Mystical Tutor and Street Wraith.
I will post a sample decklist when i am at home.

[The Legacy Weapon]

What does this deck do against Extirpate? Seems like they could wait untill you cast the first High Tide and then Extirpate it. That would most likely be game.

[calosso]

What does this deck do against Extirpate? Seems like they could wait untill you cast the first High Tide and then Extirpate it. That would most likely be game.

How so? They still resolved the first high tide, so they you can still produce alot of mana with resets and turnabout. It is harder but certainly not game over.

[URABAHN]

What does this deck do against Extirpate? Seems like they could wait untill you cast the first High Tide and then Extirpate it. That would most likely be game.

That would most likely not be game. Have you played against Solidarity much? Calosso speaks from experience and so do I since we've all played it at one point or another and have played against Deep6er. Extirpate isn't exactly a new card, I think you would have answered your own question by searching the thread for "Extirpate" (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=106704&postcount=1014).

[The Legacy Weapon]

I see now that it may not be game every time but some of those moves would be hard to pull off especially if they packed in further disruption like I do. Extirpate after a duress or a Hymn to Tourach would really hurt Solidarity if not win the game right there.

[calosso]

I see now that it may not be game every time but some of those moves would be hard to pull off especially if they packed in further disruption like I do. Extirpate after a duress or a Hymn to Tourach would really hurt Solidarity if not win the game right there.

How is it hard to pull off a single high tide? You are assuming when you thoughtseize, duress, or hymm that they cannot just hide the important cards with brainstorm or even protect your hand with fow and remand. It may be best case scenario but you are assuming the best for yourself. Also a great way to beat dumb disruption like that is just go eot meditate. You have to stop assuming that just because you extirpate high tide that the game will be over. Worst comes to worst you can just cunning wish for it or just produce alot of mana naturally with resets and turnabouts.

[chokin]

How is it hard to pull off a single high tide? You are assuming when you thoughtseize, duress, or hymm that they cannot just hide the important cards with brainstorm or even protect your hand with fow and remand. It may be best case scenario but you are assuming the best for yourself. Also a great way to beat dumb disruption like that is just go eot meditate. You have to stop assuming that just because you extirpate high tide that the game will be over. Worst comes to worst you can just cunning wish for it or just produce alot of mana naturally with resets and turnabouts.

I lol'd at the bottom of your sig. You don't like those people?

I've won games without High Tide. Or I should say without starting with one. I had 2 options: die or try to combo out. So with 5 lands, a Meditate and a Reset, I draw into Reset, Meditate, Impulse, Brainstorm and go all the way. I got my Tide off of the Impulse :)

Wishing for a Tide is not a bad move either.

[Bahamuth]

Responding to deadlocks topics:

I'm sure you already know this, but Remand has as much as 3 purposes in this deck. 3!!! First it helps to delay your opponent, it doubles your Brain Freeze AND it creates cardadvantage by Remanding your own spells in respons to an opponents counter. Remand is awesome. I've seen some others cut Remand to 3, but personally I'd never to that. It has too many different uses for that.

Twincast is quite a tough one. I've tried a build with 3 of them mainboard, but usually they seemed quite useless. Twincast is dangerous, because your opponent can counter the spell you try to copy, giving you carddisadvantage.
I've been thinking tough, maybe Twincast will be better soon, because of the rise of Fetchland Tendrils. Twincast is much stronger against that deck, because it's probably just about 1 turn faster than we are. Twincast is really good vs. Chant, and in other occasions vs. Ill-Gotten Gains.

I really don't like the idea of running Mystical Tutor. It might be an option as a 1-off in the sideboard to wish for, but really not more than that. The reason for this is the fact that Solidarity functions on a very different way than FT. Solidarity plays as a control deck, and Solidarity's worst nightmare is carddisadvantage, because that leads to more hating on your kill, and that means you lose. At the moment you Mystical Tutor, you basically put yourself in a worse situation than you were before.

Mystical tutor is a card that trades cardadvantage for great card quality. FT does need this quality, but Solidarity often doesn't. As said above, the deck can win without High Tide, Reset or Meditate. It's just harder, sure, but it can definately be done.


By the way, the primer in the first post is horribly outdated. Since i belive Solidarity is still a solid tier 2 deck, it might be a good idea to rewrite it. I think I could try it or help out with it, but I'm not sure if it will be great quality then....

[Taurelin]

Extirpate after a duress or a Hymn to Tourach would really hurt Solidarity if not win the game right there.

The point is that every single discard effect already hurts. Quite. Extirpate is merely kicking a victim that's already down on the ground, metaphorically.

The solutions vs Extirpate have already been mentioned:
1) Responding to your own spells.
2) Cunning Wish for the lost cards (note that a played Cunning Wish doesn't go to the graveyard and thus can't be hit by Extirpate itself).

And another one:

3) Keep your graveyard clean by removing it in time with Flash of Insight.

[deadlock]

Good to see that there is still a certain amount of interest for the deck.

I think we could agree on that Extirpate can certainly be anoying, but isnt the end of the world.

Maybe i havnt made myself clear, i never suggested to cut Remand, i just wanted to point out that it maybe not that effective against Counterbalance.

For Twincast besides Mystical Tutor the most interesting replacements are Repeal, Peer Through Depths and Spell Snare in my opinion.
In the end i am not even sure about replacing Twincast, it gives the deck a great deal of consistency by acting as an extra copy of your most important spells most of the time.

If somebody want to test on MWS, feel free to PM me.

[Shimster]

Although I tested the green splash a lot, I dismissed it a few weeks ago. Therefore I tried to adjust a mono U list to a thresh infested meta.

// Lands
12 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Opt
4 Impulse
4 Reset
4 Force of Will
3 Remand
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
2 Spell Snare
2 Brain Freeze
2 Flash of Insight

// Sideboard
3 Wipe Away
3 Echoing Truth
2 Spell Snare
2 Brain Freeze
1 Remand
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout

I moved one Remand to the sideboard (against slower control, such as Landstall), as four are very clunky. A playset of Opt helps to find the comboparts, as well as the landdrops.

Wipe Away is a logical answer to Counterbalance and Meddling Mage. Echoing Truth is my latest tech (thx to vanphanel :smile:) against Dragon Stompy, EtW using fastcombo and Ichorid. Try it out, you'll be very pleased.

My experiences regarding Extirpate are limited to UWb Cunning Landstill: While Landstill has been one of the best MUs, Extirpate in the sideboard is kind of bitchy. Normally I used Meditate as a setup spell against Landstill, but extirpating it is one of the worst situations I can imagine. :eek:

/Edit: bahamuth, you got mail. :D

[Bahamuth]

I like Shimster's list. I'm playing exactly the same, exept for 1 more Remand and 1 less Opt. Maybe 4 Opt 3 Remand is a better idea. I'll try it out.

Another difference is the land configuration. I recently went down to 5 fetchland, and I'm really liking it. I barely ever miss a fetchalnd for Brainstorm, and I get less Stifled fetchland and less damage, which is important in quite some matchups. I would even try going down to 4, but I don't have any Invasion asian Islands left, so....

My sideboard is almost the same too. The only difference is your Remand, which is a Twincast in my board. There's really not much to say on that card. Sometimes it's wished for in very long games, but usually you win those games anyway...

I placed 3th 2 weeks ago at a local tournament by the way, 38 people. The field wasn't too strong tough.

My wins were vs W/G/B aggro-control (which made it into the top8, it's a really strong deck), Ichorid (I'm proud :D) and Burn, followed by 2 draws. In the top8 I won from TES, and then lost from another TES. I gained 3th by beating Belcher (which is such an easy MU if you have the Truths boarded in.)

[Shimster]

Cutting 1 Remand in favour of Opt definitely helps the deck at comboing out on turn 4. Although I am weakening the control part, I trade it with tempo. As the Legacy metagame is constantly accelerating, this conclusion is kind of self-evident.

The bitchy bounceboard (nice alliteration, eh? :D) was huge in testing. Echoing Truth and Wipe Away are _that_ helpful against tough MUs (such as balanced Aggro/Control, as well as token using fastcombo decks).

@ Bahamuth: As for the open SB slot (your Twincast slot), I tested some cards. I started with Twincast, as it is the obvious lategame choice (Twincasting an opponent's Fact or Fiction is great), followed by other wish targets such as Misdirection or even Peer through Depths (I own a German foil one, so nvm). In the end I chose Remand, because I like it so much. :eek:

[Bahamuth]

I also found the Echoing Truths to be very helpful, but I haven't liked the Wipe Away so far. I'm not sure, maybe I haven't played enough matches vs. CB/top Thresh, but I somehow felt the Wipe Away usually came to late, and I would draw them as dead cards in Meditates. I probably have to test more.

I'm going to try the same configuration as you with 5 fetch.

[Shimster]

[...], but I somehow felt the Wipe Away usually came to late, and I would draw them as dead cards in Meditates.
That's the reason i play three instead of four (you know my SB strategy against CB Thresh, don't you?) - the less you play, the lower is the chance to draw more than one during the combo.

I just played against Fetchland Tendrils to prove the statement that Solidarity is the better fetchland-using combo deck. :laugh: All i have to say is: Wishing for Remand is gold. One just has to retard the game, as Soli is the lategame king. Period.

Regarding the number of fetchlands, I cannot go down to five, since I don't own more than 12 Unhinged foil islands. :tongue:

[Van Phanel]

I played GP Brussels this weekend and planned to play the Legacy-sideevent with Solidarity but I made day 2 and placed 10th winning 600$ and a qualification for PT Berlin, so Legacy had to step aside.


By the way, the primer in the first post is horribly outdated. Since i belive Solidarity is still a solid tier 2 deck, it might be a good idea to rewrite it. I think I could try it or help out with it, but I'm not sure if it will be great quality then....

Yes, it is outdated, but I don't like the thought of a new thread. I'd feel that something is missing whenever I'd look at the new thread. There's some nostalgia involved :cry:


To be serious, yes that primer is horribly outdated, however we would need some actual testing results if we want to write a new one. I'd like to play some testgames, especially as Treshhold in nonexistent in my local metagame so I could use those games both for improving my game against ***** and for getting results for a primer. I'd also really like to see one of the old experienced Solidarity-players to help with that primer, maybe even Deep6r even though I fear it isn't going to happen as he has obviously given up on Solidarity.

[Shimster]

I'd also really like to see one of the old experienced Solidarity-players to help with that primer, maybe even Deep6r even though I fear it isn't going to happen as he has obviously given up on Solidarity.
Herzlichen Glückwunsch zum 10ten. :smile:

Deep6r betrayed his own following a few months ago, so bite the bullet and accept it. :wink: Although I know that he hasn't put hands on Solidarity for a long time (at least not at a tournament), I could ask Lukas Preuss. He could be a great help, as he has already written a German Solidarity primer.

We should probably install a message board for further primer discussions, because it is kind of off-topic (weird :laugh:).

[Bahamuth]

Herzlichen Glückwunsch zum 10ten. :smile:

Deep6r betrayed his own following a few months ago, so bite the bullet and accept it. :wink: Although I know that he hasn't put hands on Solidarity for a long time (at least not at a tournament), I could ask Lukas Preuss. He could be a great help, as he has already written a German Solidarity primer.

We should probably install a message board for further primer discussions, because it is kind of off-topic (weird :laugh:).

A message board would be ideal. This might become quite a big project then. I have no idea how to set up something like that tough.

Congratulations on your day 2 Van Phanel. I was already wondering why there was no Solidarity in the top 8 of the side event. :laugh:

Could I get a link to the primer Lukas Preuss wrote? My German is kind of crappy, but I'm sure I'll be able to read a bit of it.

[Shimster]

Could I get a link to the primer Lukas Preuss wrote? My German is kind of crappy, but I'm sure I'll be able to read a bit of it.
It is located here (http://www.zkforum.de/showpost.php?p=424521&postcount=1).

I installed a message board - The Solidarity Primer (http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/). :laugh:

[Bahamuth]

It is located here (http://www.zkforum.de/showpost.php?p=424521&postcount=1).

I installed a message board - The Solidarity Primer (http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/). :laugh:

Riight.....That's pretty quick. :smile: I'll sign up there. I really think this might turn out to be very productive. Thanks for the effort so far.

[Funky-kun]

Hey guys! I'm really looking forward to seeing the updated primer. I just wanted to ask when will users have access to it, since now I can't enter any part of the board except the tournament reports.

And another question regarding the process of building the deck. Since I decided to buy the Resets, I won't be able to play Force of Will for a while. So what do you think is the better decision : to play Peer Through Depths, leaving Remands the only counters and thus being a more speedy build, or to play regular Counterspells (or Spell Snares, meta dependant), which combined with the Remands and 4 Cunning Wishes (4th one in the place of the Twincast) turn the deck to a more controlish type?

[GreenOne]

It really depends on the meta.

If the problem are Counterspells then I'd play Twincast.
If the problem is permanent based (counterbalance/rule of law and the like) I'd play Repeal.
If the problem is Discard and/or Land Destruction I'd play Disrupt or Misdirection.

In a varied meta I'd consider Spell Snare, Twincast, Counterspell and Arcane Denial, likely in this order.

[lebarion]

@Funky-kun
I would probably go with 2-3 Spell Snares and 1-2 Twincast replacing the FoWs in a blind metagame, as the Twincast can be useful in different situations and many decks have 2CC spells that's worth to be countered.

If your metagame is full of control decks you can also try Pact of Negation, wich is useful for counter wars but don't help against permanent hate or anything that happens before the turn you're going off.

[lavafrogg]

OMG... Never, ever, ever cut a remand.
Remanding on turn two and three means you are going to win the game. This deck needs to get to the mid game and remand is essentially a time walk that doubles as c combo piece and a way to out manuver a opponent in a stack war. Easily an MVP in the deck with brainfreeze it counts as a twincast that actually works. I could talk forever about why it shouldt be cut but I will simplify with...NEVER CUT A REMAND!

[Shimster]

Remanding on turn two and three means you are going to win the game.
... Not! :D

Cutting 1 Remand has been a good decision. It is way more important to find your 4th land asap, than pseudo Time Walking your opponent. You are right about the stack stuff, but explain this to Counterbalance. She is kind of narrow-minded regarding the greatness of counterspells.

[Bahamuth]

A big problem with Remand is that it blows vs. Thresh. You can't reliably use it there to lengthen your opponent's cock.

[Nihil Credo]

A big problem with Remand is that it blows vs. Thresh. You can't reliably use it there to lengthen your opponent's clock.
.... I missed the final 'l'.

[Shimster]

As Bahamuth already said, Remand doesn't touch NQG's cock at all. Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf are equally dangerous, as the later is normally 3/4. Remanding a Nimble Mongoose on turn 2 is not a Time Walk at all, is it?

[Taurelin]

Remanding a Nimble Mongoose on turn 2 is not a Time Walk at all, is it?

It depends. If they have already brainstormed and fetched or pondered the same turn, it is. On the other hand, a turn 2 Mongoose isn't a serious clock, yet.

And remanding a turn 2 Goyf or Counterbalance, or doing the same thing turn 3 is not that bad, is it?

[Citrus-God]

Remand is probably more likely to bait counters out from the opposing side. You might want Remand there to protect Cunning Wish or something along those lines.

If I remember playing Solidarity right, I have always sculpted my hand as

Remand
Remand
Reset
High Tide
Meditate
FoW (If able)

So that when I have to bait out counters, I also get a glimpse of what resources they want to aim for.

[lavafrogg]

Remanding a tarmogoyf on turn two saves you a turn of beats and remanding a counterbalance buys you a turn to get to cunning wish mana or draws into your fow for the counterbalance.
If they are tapping mana for creatures they are not sculpting their hands and digging for countermagic. Remand is golden in winning the threshold matchup. Also...casting a key spell and freeing it from countermagic, and drawing a card is amazing...thumbs up.

[Bahamuth]

Remanding a tarmogoyf on turn two saves you a turn of beats and remanding a counterbalance buys you a turn to get to cunning wish mana or draws into your fow for the counterbalance.
If they are tapping mana for creatures they are not sculpting their hands and digging for countermagic. Remand is golden in winning the threshold matchup. Also...casting a key spell and freeing it from countermagic, and drawing a card is amazing...thumbs up.

In my experience, especially with 4 Spell Snares boarded in, Remand often doesn't effectively do these things. Remanding is often dangerous because of Daze, It happens a lot that you already have the Spell Snare to counter the SB or Goyf, and Remanding your own spells to free it from counters is barely useable because of the clock Thresh put's up.

[revenge_inc]

Remanding is often dangerous because of Daze

Ok lets say that happens. Their Goyf hits the table. Can you not still race them? That is one less counter you have to worry about so going off should be easier. In your testing what has been the clock that Threshold has put up?

[Bahamuth]

Ok lets say that happens. Their Goyf hits the table. Can you not still race them? That is one less counter you have to worry about so going off should be easier. In your testing what has been the clock that Threshold has put up?

Daze is usually barely an issue while going off. It's usually a combination of hard counters and Stifle that kills me. When Goyf hits the table, your whole plan has to change, because of the additional clock. When you're able to make sure the Goyf doesn't hit the table, you have much more time, and therefore a much stronger hand.

[deviant]

I thought I'd cheer you guys up with a top8 that includes, not only one, but TWO Solidaritys!
And guess what won?
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=812

Don't know how big that tournament was or anything, but I think I've heard of Simon Ritzka before..?

Anyway, I always have this warm feeling when I see Soli top8 so I thought I'd share this joy with you guys.

[Shimster]

Simon Ritzka is also known as Van Phanel. :)

Btw. I am going to attend in a small tournament in about 2 hours, testing my latest list (and my latest SB, above all). I'll try to take some notes for writing a report.

/Edit: 4 players, 3 rounds, 2/1/0 in matches, 4/2/0 in games.

1st round against Alex playing Burn - 2-0

1st game I comboed him out on his 8th turn. Although I had 7 islands in play, I was at 2 life, knowing he has got a Fireblast and a Lightning Bolt (thx to Peek, this card was amazing during the whole tournament). Cakewalk.

- 1 Opt
- 1 Remand
+ 2 Spell Snare (assuming he's going to board Pyrostatic Pillar)

2nd game I have to win though 8 (!!!) REBs, omfg. So I start comboing with High Tide, he blasts it. I turnabout his lands in response, leaving him with 3 red mana and 3 REBs (thx Peek, you're fucking amazing, really). We proceed to the Combat Phase, emptying the mana pool. gg :smile:

2nd round against Pascal playing Mono Black Pox - 0-2

Adult explicit, as Pox rapes Soli very hardcore.

3rd round against anonyme playing UWb Landstill - 2-0

1st game I've got Brain Freeze for lethal on the stack, he's got an active Academy Ruins (so he cannot deck himself). I go for Cunning Wish, resolves, gg (Wish for Wipe Away, wiping his Ruins). He instantly scoops in response. :laugh:

[Julian23]

I thought I'd cheer you guys up with a top8 that includes, not only one, but TWO Solidaritys!
And guess what won?
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=812

Don't know how big that tournament was or anything, but I think I've heard of Simon Ritzka before..?


You might know him because he was close to top8ing in GP Bruessels. The tournament you mention - I attended it - consisted of about 21 participants. I guess over the next week we'll have more Fish/Threshold because Soli just seems to get out of control *exaggerating*. By the way, I beat Soli with Enchantress 2-0 today *proud* ;-) ;-)

[Van Phanel]

There actually were 25 players.

Solidarity really is the deck to play in our local meta (currently) as there haven't been more than one or two Treshhold in the last months.

The reason for this could be that we have Marius Hausmann (Wasteland) and 1-3 other Landstill players and also some Aggro-Loam and those decks really give Treshhold a hard time. I fear that this might change during the next weeks however. At some point at the beginning of 2007 we had a meta roughly like that with Solidarity winning all the time and some weeks later there were 6 (!) Hanni-Fish (and some Deadguy) in 20 players.


Back to topic however: At our local tournament I again managed to go 4-0-1 with a split in round five this time running 2 Cryptic Command in the maindeck. They took the place of the maindeck Spell Snares I had before, so I had the following list:

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
12 Island

4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Reset
4 Impulse
3 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
2 Cryptic Command
4 Force of Will
2 Flash of Insight

Sideboard:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
3 Spell Snare
3 Echoing Truth
2 Wipe Away
3 Hydroblast

I first moved both Spell Snares to the sideboard. Then I decided that 4 Spell Snare + 2 Command + 2 Wipe Away is too much, even against Counterbalance, and I wouldn't know what to board out anyway, so I cut one of the Spell Snares. Rebuild then was an obvious cut as Cryptic Command already makes it easier to play through Chalice.

I can absolutely recommend the Cryptic Commands. They are incredibly flexible and do what you need and when you need it. In every single match I played it at least twice and I never regretted drawing it. They are worse than Spell Snare against combo, but in any other matchup they really shine. Try them and I'd wonder if you don't like them.

Edit: Another option would be going down to 1 Wipe Away solely as Wishtarget and readd the fourth Spell Snare. Still I really like 2 Wipe Away in my deck after boarding. Thoughts?

[Pelikanudo]

Has anybody thougth in putting in from side 4 tarmogoyf. I think this 4 copies of such a good card could improve the ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh match up which is our worst one. In extendeed i ve seen a tron deck having in side the 4 tarmogoyfs¡¡¡
Why not figting fire with fire?

[ImAChampion]

Has anybody thougth in putting in from side 4 tarmogoyf. I think this 4 copies of such a good card could improve the ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh match up which is our worst one. In extendeed i ve seen a tron deck having in side the 4 tarmogoyfs¡¡¡
Why not figting fire with fire?That would be a good idea if this were Mono Blue Control. Thats exactly what Extended did. However...this is a combo deck. Tarmogoyf just doesn't belong here.

[Funky-kun]

The only creature that would have some synergy with the deck as a SB plan would be Quirion Dryad, but playtests from before didn't seem to give much positive feedback.

[undone]

How bad is the threshold MU? Is it auto loss? or is it around 40-60/45-55 Can any one advise me on the new lists?

[Jak]

It is pretty bad. They get all their disruption online and have a clock. It is more like 30-70 with something like UGb. Thoughtseize, Force, Balnce, Daze and Goyf just kill.

[undone]

Other then threshold what are this decks worst MUs?

Do you have trouble going off vs dragonstompy with the chalices+3 sphears?

Are the fetches good? they make the mana base disruptable

How are other combo MUs?

[Bahamuth]

Other then threshold what are this decks worst MUs?

Do you have trouble going off vs dragonstompy with the chalices+3 sphears?

Are the fetches good? they make the mana base disruptable

How are other combo MUs?

Thresh is not 30/70. It's more like 40/60. The TempoThresh matchup is really hard to play, but it's doable. UGw Thresh is easiest of all, because it has such a slow clock. UGb is probably harder, but not undoable.

The only other really bad matchup is Sui Black (or other variants). Also here, you can probably get to 40/60 is you play it well, but usually this matchup is completely dependant on your opponent's skills and luck (just as with Thresh, but less luck there). Resolving a Meditate and countering the right threats can usually win you the game.

Dragon Stompy is a favourable matchup. The deck has too little threats to pose a too quick clock to us paired with disruption. Countering the Threats withh usually buy you plenty of time to Wish for Rebuild and win after resolving the rebuild.

It's quite possible to win trough 3Phere, but it's hard. You need at least 5 land, preferably more. It's also possible to win trough Chalice 1, but that's really not fun to do....

I know the fetches seem bad, I think the same. They are, however, absolutely needed. Brainstorm is a really really crappy card without fetches, and it doesn't even give you the opportunity to properly fix your hand without it. I went back to 5 Fetchland some time ago, and I like it. I might even try 4.

The combo matchup is, from my experience, quite close. I've played the TES matchup way to much, and I can tell it's probably close to 45/55. It's unfavourable, but not much. You present TES with a really really quick clock, and aside from that, a whole load of cantrips to find FoW, Remand and Spell Snare.

Belcher has to be positive, I'm pretty sure. With 3 Echoing Truth SB, I can quite safely say the deck's gonna have a hard time winning.

I don't know enough about Fetchland Tendrills yet. The newer lists are slow and play Doomsday, which is both great for us. The do have more Chant's than TES tough, so it needs more testing.

[Hopo]

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
12 Island

4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Reset
4 Impulse
3 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
2 Cryptic Command
4 Force of Will
2 Flash of Insight

Sideboard:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
3 Spell Snare
3 Echoing Truth
2 Wipe Away
3 Hydroblast

Your list looks very decent, congratulations for your results.

Is Spell Snare really that hot against combo nowadays? I'm not complaining, I just haven't been playing Solidarity now for over a year and am not so up to date with it's performance nowadays. In general, it's excellent in legacy as majority of the business costs 2 mana. I tried it like a year agot but it didn't feel that good. Now it might truly work as goyfs run all over the format.

Cryptic Command is an obvious and excellent idea. I think it's crucial to have one bounce spell maindecked and command is even more than a bounce. Counter + bounce timewalks aggro decks and it is just a perfect utility card for solidarity. It might even take the deck back to higher tiers. 2 looks like a good number to run them.

Any experience playing against modern Painter's Servant decks?

[Van Phanel]

Your list looks very decent, congratulations for your results.

Is Spell Snare really that hot against combo nowadays? I'm not complaining, I just haven't been playing Solidarity now for over a year and am not so up to date with it's performance nowadays. In general, it's excellent in legacy as majority of the business costs 2 mana. I tried it like a year agot but it didn't feel that good. Now it might truly work as goyfs run all over the format.

Cryptic Command is an obvious and excellent idea. I think it's crucial to have one bounce spell maindecked and command is even more than a bounce. Counter + bounce timewalks aggro decks and it is just a perfect utility card for solidarity. It might even take the deck back to higher tiers. 2 looks like a good number to run them.

Any experience playing against modern Painter's Servant decks?

Well, the main reason for Spell Snare is to fight Counterbalance. The other targets (Meddling Mage, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Tarmogoyf, Counterspell and to some extent Hymn to Tourach and Werebear come to mind) are nice to take out yet I personally wouldn't play Spell Snare in the current meta if it couldn't deal with Counterbalance.

[Bahamuth]

You know, I just had this stupid idea: The matchups we should improve are Thresh, Sui Blackish decks and perhaps combo. What does that better than CB/Top? It would take up 6 SB slots, but I can see it buying you immense amounts of time against both Thresh and Sui. Also, it's good against every form of Thresh, while Spell Snare generally only targets Goyf in the tempothresh matchup.

[Funky-kun]

Actually I came up with the same idea and tested it in Spring Tide (it is more logical for me to use non-instant cards in that deck) but the results weren't as good as I wanted. However the more time you buy with Solidarity the bigger the power of Reset gets, so it might turn out better, but it needs some testing.

[lesly]

how do you guys play against the loam matchup?it's pretty heavily played in my belgian meta.
most of the time is just play my spells without giving any priority(keeping reset meditate and other stuff on teh stack to let it resolve all a once then,and if needed to react on other spells still on the stack)on the other hand,if to many duresses and tseizes come,i'm screwed anyway...

any ideas to improve that matchup?

[Van Phanel]

Loam is an incredibly broad description for a deck. I can just guess you are talking about Aggro-Loam/b. Correct?

If so, that matchup doesn't need any improvement. You can still easily win past some discard. Their clock is annoying but not at all unbeatable and generally a turn slower than Goblins. Just don't ever let Devastating Dreams resolve when they have a thread in play (that was obvious I guess).

As discard generally means that they don't play guys, you should have enough time to find your next High Tide. Apart from that the general things about playing against discard + Extirpate apply:

- Use Brainstorm only when you have to as it can hide your important cards.

- If your hand is wrecked, play Meditate precombo, but do this with caution in this matchup as they might have Dreams or a really fast growing Crusher.

- Prevent Cunning Wish from getting hit by Extirpate over anything else if you can (this doesn't apply if you're winning right when they Extirpate Wish obviously).

- Prevent copies of cards in your hand from getting hit by playing as you described above.

In addition to that, my approach for the matchup would be:

- I, personally, board out one High Tide when playing against discard in order to have access to 6 High Tides postboard.

- Play Cryptic Command. It is huge against any deck fighting fair (any deck that is not Combo) as it produces cardadvantage while dealing with your biggest problem.



That said, every single decision with the deck is situational. I can't repeat that often enough. Use everything you got as good as you can and I'd expect the matchup to be around 60-40.

[Pelikanudo]

And what about playing 4 meekstone in side, leaving 4 fow and 4 remand
you can play a meekstone on 4th turn our opp will counter it we remand it he counters and we FoW it. and if it comes into play we simply will win.
Its a card by one mana that literally stops ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
What about this idea because playing landstill I feel I win the entire meta except those fuckin ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh match ups.
It even helps vs those dreadstill decks.
What do you guys think?

[lebarion]

And what about playing 4 meekstone in side, leaving 4 fow and 4 remand
you can play a meekstone on 4th turn our opp will counter it we remand it he counters and we FoW it. and if it comes into play we simply will win.
Its a card by one mana that literally stops ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
What about this idea because playing landstill I feel I win the entire meta except those fuckin ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh match ups.
It even helps vs those dreadstill decks.
What do you guys think?

The bad thing about meekstone, besides not beign an instant, is that it will not help you against counterbalance. Also, if you lose the first game and use meekstone to win the second, the oponent will board in Krosan Grip/Trygon Predator, and your trick will not work anymore.
I think that CB/top is a better idea, however I'm not sure yet.

[Willoe]

The best solution is still Wipe Away, right? It deals pretty well with Counterbalance as far as I know. Even delaying them a turn will be enough. You get to untap, draw a card, play a land and then you can go off in response to them playing counterbalance. Also, Wipe Away can be wished for.

How does people splash? I prefer green splashes as they give Krosan Grip, Bound//Determined, the cheaper Naturalize and Moment's Peace (yes, Moment's Peace. Two timewalks against aggro, I take a sideboard slot) over white splashes since the things they only really give me are Chants and Abeyances. Disenchant will most likely be countered by Counterbalance too - that sucks.

Do we even need to splash a color to win against Counterbalance?

[undone]

What about the red splash for Urzas rage. I saw that floating around, it kills teeg and MMage but also 2x can be a win condition that can not be messed with. (Its some where on deck check.net it seemed rather interesting)

[Pelikanudo]

well my friends I agree that meekstone can be good only for 2nd game but in 3rd game well face or trygon or krosan...
so therefore i really dont find any really good card is side vs ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh any body can help me.
I mean the pressure that tres puts on the voard is excessivenimble tarmo, I dont really find balance as a trouble because we have in side 4 snares and 2 wipeaway plus the 4 Fow and 4 remand from main...
but the tempo of a ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh just is killer plus dazes plus Fow plus snares and plus full package of stifles... I even find the fucking Dreadnout versions a bad match up even worse than ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh because of they have the same amount of counters and stifles and plus 2 trickbind and the lonely 12/12 is quicker than our clock. If you boys find solution to those troubles we are facing the best deck in legacy: Solidarity because the rest of match ups are offensively easy.
Please help help¡¡¡

[jjjoness']

The best solution is still Wipe Away, right? It deals pretty well with Counterbalance as far as I know. Even delaying them a turn will be enough. You get to untap, draw a card, play a land and then you can go off in response to them playing counterbalance. Also, Wipe Away can be wished for.

How does people splash? I prefer green splashes as they give Krosan Grip, Bound//Determined, the cheaper Naturalize and Moment's Peace (yes, Moment's Peace. Two timewalks against aggro, I take a sideboard slot) over white splashes since the things they only really give me are Chants and Abeyances. Disenchant will most likely be countered by Counterbalance too - that sucks.

Do we even need to splash a color to win against Counterbalance?

Counterbalance is a real problem, but Spellsnare works really good and if it resolves you still can Cryptic Command or Wipe Away EOT and win their next turn.

[Bahamuth]

well my friends I agree that meekstone can be good only for 2nd game but in 3rd game well face or trygon or krosan...
so therefore i really dont find any really good card is side vs ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh any body can help me.
I mean the pressure that tres puts on the voard is excessivenimble tarmo, I dont really find balance as a trouble because we have in side 4 snares and 2 wipeaway plus the 4 Fow and 4 remand from main...
but the tempo of a ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh just is killer plus dazes plus Fow plus snares and plus full package of stifles... I even find the fucking Dreadnout versions a bad match up even worse than ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh because of they have the same amount of counters and stifles and plus 2 trickbind and the lonely 12/12 is quicker than our clock. If you boys find solution to those troubles we are facing the best deck in legacy: Solidarity because the rest of match ups are offensively easy.
Please help help¡¡¡

Dude, your post is completely unreadable.

I've done some (not much) testing with CB. First thing I noticed is that a resolved CB will usually win you the game. This deck already has an excellent curve for both blind CB and assuring you will see a 1CC and a 2CC card on top of your deck.
However, CB is easy to counter. Lots of Thresh lists play Spell Snare. There's also a great chance your opponent will drop his CB before you do.

The Red splash is crap now. No one plays Mage or Teeg. It doesn't matter at all.

I'm still looking for better answers too. Meekstone crossen my mind earlier, and it seems interesting, especially since your opponent is definately not going to expect it.

[Pelikanudo]

well my friend keep thinking because my brain doesnt find another way to handle those , maybe porfir nodes, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and dreads match ups. If anybody find a way to deal with em I´ll be so pleased....

[Shimster]

@ Pelikanudo: Please stop writing this way, it's very annoying and hard to read. ;)

You cannot win the Dreadstill-MU. Really, you can't. Counterbalance, Daze, Force of Will, Stifle, Trickbind and a 2 turn clock is more than Solidarity can handle.

As Bahamuth already said, the red splash is no longer useful. It was introduced, when NQGw played Meddling Mage. Since they run Counterbalance now, Sudden Shock became unnecessary. Urza's Rage and Twincast is pretty surplus - with 10 mana and a Cunning Wish, you are going to win anyways.

[Shriekmaw]

well my friend keep thinking because my brain doesnt find another way to handle those , maybe porfir nodes, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and dreads match ups. If anybody find a way to deal with em I´ll be so pleased....


If you want a good way to deal with those types of deck then either play a different deck or talk to Mike Herbig. He always found a way to beat those decks.

Mono-blue is the correct way to go if you want to pick up this deck and play. I just think the deck is too slow for the current format. Every other combo deck is just faster.

[Shimster]

I just think the deck is too slow for the current format. Every other combo deck is just faster.
Solidarity is _not_ a combo deck, it is combo-control. My current list plays up to 11 counterspells postboard (more than Kadaj's MUC version), which allow you to bring the match to the lategame. You don't want to be faster than Belcher or TES and you would fail horribly trying.

[jjjoness']

Solidarity is _not_ a combo deck, it is combo-control. My current list plays up to 11 counterspells postboard (more than Kadaj's MUC version), which allow you to bring the match to the lategame. You don't want to be faster than Belcher or TES and you would fail horribly trying.

And actually you don't need to. You just can wait until TES comboes (they won't actually do before they have at least one chant) and combo in response, abusing their storm. This makes it possible to win without being able to create an awesome lot of storm. And Belcher loses to any random Force.

[Michael Keller]

Solidarity is _not_ a combo deck, it is combo-control. My current list plays up to 11 counterspells postboard (more than Kadaj's MUC version), which allow you to bring the match to the lategame. You don't want to be faster than Belcher or TES and you would fail horribly trying.

That still makes it a combo deck in nature. You have to setup or draw properly in order to go off, and in any deck in which you need to - "go off" - that is combo.

And what's fast for you? What, turn three? Ive seen it happen numerous times. I've had it happen to me. Obviously the deck can't win on turn one or two really (extremely rare), but because you filter much of the deck to become more control than combo and gear toward the "late-game" post-board, all your doing is diluting a deck which functions primarily on a draw/filter engine rather than stalling with a bunch of counters and nothing else.

Essentially, shifting Solidarity into MUC is a terrible idea and all it does is give you less an out to early threats that you can't stop because you've boarded out necessary cards for counter-magic. Force (Counterspell, maybe) and Cunning Wish should be sufficient.

[lebarion]

That still makes it a combo deck in nature.

And what's fast for you? What, turn three? Ive seen it happen numerous times. I've had it happen to me. Obviously the deck can't win on turn one or two really (extremely rare), but because you filter much of the deck to become more control than combo and gear toward the "late-game" post-board, all your doing is diluting a deck which functions primarily on a draw/filter engine rather than stalling with a bunch of counters and nothing else.

Essentially, shifting Solidarity into MUC is a terrible idea and all it does is give you less an out to early threats. Force (Counterspell, maybe) and Cunning Wish should be sufficient.

Actually, what i think Shimster is saying is that you should not focus in the combo aspect only when playing Solidarity. If you do, you will probably lose miserably to control and other faster combo decks.

Solidarity has one of the stronger late games of the format. Counterspells are a good tool to get into the late game, and they also help you to protect yourself when comboing off. Besides, some of the "counterspells" of the deck are usefull when comboing, too: Remand (combined with brainfreeze), and cryptic command (to tap opponent's creatures, if needed).

[Bahamuth]

That still makes it a combo deck in nature. You have to setup or draw properly in order to go off, and in any deck in which you need to - "go off" - that is combo.

And what's fast for you? What, turn three? Ive seen it happen numerous times. I've had it happen to me. Obviously the deck can't win on turn one or two really (extremely rare), but because you filter much of the deck to become more control than combo and gear toward the "late-game" post-board, all your doing is diluting a deck which functions primarily on a draw/filter engine rather than stalling with a bunch of counters and nothing else.

Essentially, shifting Solidarity into MUC is a terrible idea and all it does is give you less an out to early threats that you can't stop because you've boarded out necessary cards for counter-magic. Force (Counterspell, maybe) and Cunning Wish should be sufficient.

You are right to a certain degree. Solidarity has (like lebarion said) probably the strongest lategame in the entire format. To archieve this strong lategame power, we don't actually need that many slots. I'm sure you too realise running counters does not only give you the opportunity to reach the lategame, but also gives us protection in the early game, which is absolutely great.

Oh, by the way, I want to emphasize this: Solidarity is not too slow for the current meta. If this would be true, Landstill would be too slow too, and we all know that isn't the case. Combo doesn't need to win as soon as possible, it needs to win at the right moment, which is when you know you can play trough your opponent's disruption. This is a strong argument for not boarding too many cards in and out vs. decks like Thresh. Once you know at what precise time to win (and that is really, really hard. There's no way I could do that reliably) and you have the ability to answer their earliest threats, you have quite a good shot at winning.

[Van Phanel]

@A Legend: This totally depends on matchups.

You need to play control against other combodecks as you can't reliably highjack their storm (they'll find Chant or win before you can even try to). I can easily see playing FoW, Remand, Hydroblast, Spell Snare and Echoing Truth against fast-combo. Generally that is because you win if you survive their first assault. You either draw into your combo or into more control which is a win-win. Even with 6-8 additional dead cards, winning on 6+ land never is a problem.

@lebarion: That's not quite the point. You actually want to be combo. You can't win otherwise. Yet against decks that are faster than you (and there are quite some of them nowadays) you have to stop them from winning before you even get the chance to win yourself.

@jjjoness': Actually against TES there are some games postboard where _they_ become the control-deck with Shusher-powered Chants (and sometimes Blasts). Against a good TES-player highjacking their storm won't work. They'll just play Chant (or any other protection) during their upkeep and you pretty much have to Force. What you want to see least however is Xantid. If it resolves on turn 1 you are pretty much dead.

@Shimster: Would you mind posting your current list?





Once you know at what precise time to win (and that is really, really hard. There's no way I could do that reliably) and you have the ability to answer their earliest threats, you have quite a good shot at winning.

This is actually an argument for Peek. Maybe it is worth revisiting. Lately all of us seem to have it cut, yet that is the precise situation where it shines. Iirc Shimster still uses and likes it. I really don't like losing Opt but Magic is about compromises.

Unfortunately we have Regionals next Saturday so I probably won't be able to test it in actual tournament play, yet I'll try it. I too have lately found that I feared my opponents hand a lot when he actually just held nothing (i.e. 3 Wastelands and a Stifle and a Spell Snare against NQG/r).

[Benie Bederios]

About the splashes, I'm enjoying the green Splash ATM.

My SB including Krosan Grip/ Naturalize( gets around Chalice for 3 wich Stax/Stompy decks might want to play to stop Cunning Wish) and sometimes Quirion Dryad.

The Dryad is on the edge of Danger of cool things. But quite fun if you can pull it off and it makes it very hard for your opponent to board right game 3.

The red Splash isn't completly dead, because the Blasts can stop Counterbalance. Allthough it's a quite weak answer because it cant destroy the Balance most of the time.

If I don't play Dryad, I normally have a full set of Spell Snares( if I do, 3 at max) I can board in 6 cards against Counterabalance( 2 Krosan Grip and 4 Spell Snare).

BB

[Shimster]

@Shimster: Would you mind posting your current list?
// Lands
12 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Reset
4 Force of Will
3 Remand
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
2 Opt
2 Peek
2 Brain Freeze
2 Flash of Insight
2 Cryptic Command

// Sideboard
3 Spell Snare
3 Echoing Truth
3 Wipe Away
2 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout

Cryptic Command is very sexy, as long as your Counterbalance abusing opponent doesn't play Mystic Enforcer or Fire / Ice. :laugh: In a black meta, Spell Snare is the better choice though.


Iirc Shimster still uses and likes it. I really don't like losing Opt but Magic is about compromises.
Originally Peek was a compromise, as well - I only had two foil Opt at the last tournament, but two foil Peeks. With hindsight, it was a great choice, as I would have lost two games without (Burn and UWb Landstill). Peek makes managing your ressources easy, therefore I would advise mainly beginners to play it.

[Bahamuth]

// Lands
12 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Reset
4 Force of Will
3 Remand
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
2 Opt
2 Peek
2 Brain Freeze
2 Flash of Insight
2 Cryptic Command

// Sideboard
3 Spell Snare
3 Echoing Truth
3 Wipe Away
2 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout

Cryptic Command is very sexy, as long as your Counterbalance abusing opponent doesn't play Mystic Enforcer or Fire / Ice. :laugh: In a black meta, Spell Snare is the better choice though.


Originally Peek was a compromise, as well - I only had two foil Opt at the last tournament, but two foil Peeks. With hindsight, it was a great choice, as I would have lost two games without (Burn and UWb Landstill). Peek makes managing your ressources easy, therefore I would advise mainly beginners to play it.

Why do you still play 3 Wipe Away in your sideboard with the Commands mainboard? What is your boarding plan vs. Thresh?

[Nihil Credo]

Cryptic Command is very sexy, as long as your Counterbalance abusing opponent doesn't play Mystic Enforcer or Fire / Ice.
Fire//Ice doesn't counter Cryptic Command.

[Shimster]

Why do you still play 3 Wipe Away in your sideboard with the Commands mainboard? What is your boarding plan vs. Thresh?
Haha, silly typo.

// Sideboard
4 Spell Snare
3 Echoing Truth
2 Brain Freeze
2 Wipe Away
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout

vs. balanced Thresh
+ 2 Wipe Away
- 1 Flash of Insight
- 1 Cunning Wish

vs. tempo Thresh
+ 3 Spell Snare
+ 1 Brain Freeze
- 2 Cryptic Command
- 1 Flash of Insight
- 1 Cunning Wish

I didn't test Cryptic Command intensively yet, so my sideboarding advise is made on a 50 % theoretical base.


Fire//Ice doesn't counter Cryptic Command.
My bad! :laugh: I looked it up via Virtual Judge, as I think it is a common mistake (hopefully):

Q: If I have Counterbalance in play, and an opponent plays a four mana spell, will revealing Fire / Ice counter that spell due to the total converted mana cost being four?

A: No, the converted mana cost of Fire / Ice is two and two. Counterbalance checks to see if the converted mana cost of the revealed card matches the converted mana cost of the spell on the stack. With split cards, you check each converted mana cost separately. In this example neither of the two converted mana costs (which each happen to be two) match, so this spell will not be countered.

[lebarion]

Against Belcher, Ichorid and TES, do you side in the 3 Echoing Truth, or leave one in the side as a wish target?

I realize that Cunning Wish -> Echoing Truth may be too slow against Belcher, but I feel I want to have access to as many ET as I can.

[Pelikanudo]

Haha, silly typo.


vs. balanced Thresh
+ 2 Wipe Away
- 1 Flash of Insight
- 1 Cunning Wish

vs. tempo Thresh
+ 3 Spell Snare
+ 1 Brain Freeze
- 2 Cryptic Command
- 1 Flash of Insight
- 1 Cunning Wish

.
what we intend to do is to improve the Thres match up wheter or not with c.b. I think a 4 cost spell like cryptic command is not optimal i prefer instead those cryptic maybe 2 snares, because is suposed balance is played before you have cryptic or you can play it , when you put up the balance with the cryptic for sure cryptic will be countered... I find the snares and wipeaway OR krosan the only way to handle balance. Respect to dryad, i dont really want to add a second color to solidarity it doesnt worth. Has any one tested the dryad or the meekstone?
Do you really think green splash for 4 dryad, huntin pack,krosan is really good idea? for post boarding, its suposed dryad will be biiig even bigger than tarmo, so could be dryad> meekstone?
I think that playin 2 snares main and leave more slots for side option is the correct way any body agree?

[Pelikanudo]

Heeeeey my friends what about this :
to take out the freezes, some resets some tide and add full pacckage of snares, 4 dryads some wipe away and its supose that having 4 snares 4 fow 4 remands 4 dryads 3 cunnin wish AND 1 berserk in side we simply change the win condition, We even would add the lonely huntin pack from side.
A point for sure we will leave the 3 turnabout to tap lands, creatures to deal letaal damge...And for sure we wont see swords on 2nd game from anybody...

[GreenOne]

I find the snares and wipeaway OR krosan the only way to handle balance.

Repeal could be another bounce payable maindeck against Counterbalance (3cc is unlikely at least maindeck). I know split second is good, but Repeal could act like a cantrip-fog effect against aggro and it's not usually a dead card mid-combo cause at least cantrips.
Sure, SB Wipe Away / Grip are better, but MD I'd play Repeal over Cryptic Command.

The beatdown plan sucks IMO.

[Bahamuth]

Haha, silly typo.

// Sideboard
4 Spell Snare
3 Echoing Truth
2 Brain Freeze
2 Wipe Away
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout

vs. balanced Thresh
+ 2 Wipe Away
- 1 Flash of Insight
- 1 Cunning Wish

vs. tempo Thresh
+ 3 Spell Snare
+ 1 Brain Freeze
- 2 Cryptic Command
- 1 Flash of Insight
- 1 Cunning Wish

I didn't test Cryptic Command intensively yet, so my sideboarding advise is made on a 50 % theoretical base.




Why exactly don't you board in your Spell Snares vs. Balanced Thresh?

Is Spell Snare that good against Tempo Thresh? The only thing it counters in their entire deck that matters is Goyf. Is that enough?

Cryptic Command has the advantage of both cantripping and being usefull in mid-combo. That is why one might consider it. It's strong against many different decks.

[Benie Bederios]

Heeeeey my friends what about this :
to take out the freezes, some resets some tide and add full pacckage of snares, 4 dryads some wipe away and its supose that having 4 snares 4 fow 4 remands 4 dryads 3 cunnin wish AND 1 berserk in side we simply change the win condition, We even would add the lonely huntin pack from side.
A point for sure we will leave the 3 turnabout to tap lands, creatures to deal letaal damge...And for sure we wont see swords on 2nd game from anybody...

How on earth are you going to fit that in your SB? Can you give an example?

EDIT: Next question against wich decks would you board it in?

BB

[Pelikanudo]

the deck base is a modification from the Simon Ritzka deck but only the side and the 2 tropical
Well well well its suppossed that what we do is to change the win cond so the base list is the one that carries 2 snares as main so the side will be:
1 berserk // this card can even destroy any creature.... read it well
1 rebuild
1 stroke
1 huntin pack // i like this card
1 krosan grip // obvious
2 snares
4 dryad quirion
1 wipe away
1 echoing truth
1 freeze
1 turnabout

what we will do is to change the 2 freeze 4 reset 1 remand BY 4 dryad, 2 snares and 1 wipe away. Its uposed this changes will be effective vs 2nd game vs Thres (any type)

A question I have : Id like to know HOW to side and win vs Thres supossing we play the Simon Ritzka deck because this kind of deck with the 2 snares is well made to face the new environment/meta.
If anyone has tested the deck and got good results vs those fuckin Thres please post it and tell us how did you do my friend. Thanks

[Deep6er]

It's NOT effective to play Quirion Dryad. Simple reasoning too. You MUST HAVE IT ON TURN TWO. Otherwise the card sucks. Are you going to mulligan for it? No, because that's an awful strategy. Additionally, the Dryad doesn't even have evasion. Trust me, I tested something similar to this. It just doesn't work. Don't try to play like Threshold, it's not going to end well.

@Bahamuth: Cryptic Command is the worst cantrip to exist. It costs FOUR MANA, to draw ONE CARD. That's a terrible investment. The card is awful during the combo, and mediocre before the combo.

@Shimster: Why would you board out Flash of Insight against Threshold? Besides it being one of the few spells to reliably get through Counterbalance, it's also a reliable way of finding certain cards (like Cunning Wish or sideboarded answers). Granted it's a bit slow, but not always. Additionally, post sideboard, the Threshold player is going to be more concerned with sticking Counterbalance first and foremost before trying to kill you.

[Pelikanudo]

please deeper could you tell me (supossing we play the version with 2 snares main) how did you side vs tres and dreadnoutgh please.
Another point : evasion from berserk and as you always find tide therefore you always find dryad.
I agree with you cryptic is awfull 4 cost.... and board out flash ...nonsense...

[Bahamuth]

It's NOT effective to play Quirion Dryad. Simple reasoning too. You MUST HAVE IT ON TURN TWO. Otherwise the card sucks. Are you going to mulligan for it? No, because that's an awful strategy. Additionally, the Dryad doesn't even have evasion. Trust me, I tested something similar to this. It just doesn't work. Don't try to play like Threshold, it's not going to end well.

@Bahamuth: Cryptic Command is the worst cantrip to exist. It costs FOUR MANA, to draw ONE CARD. That's a terrible investment. The card is awful during the combo, and mediocre before the combo.

@Shimster: Why would you board out Flash of Insight against Threshold? Besides it being one of the few spells to reliably get through Counterbalance, it's also a reliable way of finding certain cards (like Cunning Wish or sideboarded answers). Granted it's a bit slow, but not always. Additionally, post sideboard, the Threshold player is going to be more concerned with sticking Counterbalance first and foremost before trying to kill you.

I completely agree on Dryad. The strategy sucks. There's no way this is going to improve your match against Thresh.

I have my doubts on Cryptic Command as well. Van Phanel is very enthusiastic about it. I can see why it's a reasonable choice tough. The card isn't awful in combo, definately not. If you have lethal damage on the board, you're going to have to tap those creatures anyway. Doing that with Command gives you the opportunity to draw a card for doing that. It doesn't cost anything more than Trunabout or Wish --> Stroke.
Before combo it indeed doesn't really shine. It does provide a maindeckable answer to CB which also has a cantrip built in. What makes it interesting tough, is that it can function on both pre and mid combo, which is exactly what this deck wants (like Remand).

Deep6er: What list would you suggest (if you have one)?

[Deep6er]

I'm trying out a couple. Once I find one I like, then I'll post it. Otherwise, it wouldn't really help discussion. Give me a bit of time. Since I can't do much testing right now, I'm still working out the kinks.

[Pelikanudo]

2 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
4 Opt
3 Remand
4 Reset
2 Spell Snare
3 Turnabout
land [18]

3 Flooded Strand
12 Island
3 Polluted Delta
60 cards
Sideboard:

1 Brain Freeze
3 Echoing Truth
3 Hydroblast
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
2 Spell Snare
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
2 Wipe Away
15 cards
Well this list from Simon Ritzka comes from the new environment to fitgh those tres with c.balance.
What I really would like to know is how to side in this list on 2nd turn when youre facin Tres which cards will you take out? which one will you put in?
the 2 snares as main , thats ritgh that dont help to combo off but its a option meta

[Bahamuth]

2 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
4 Opt
3 Remand
4 Reset
2 Spell Snare
3 Turnabout
land [18]

3 Flooded Strand
12 Island
3 Polluted Delta
60 cards
Sideboard:

1 Brain Freeze
3 Echoing Truth
3 Hydroblast
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
2 Spell Snare
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
2 Wipe Away
15 cards
Well this list from Simon Ritzka comes from the new environment to fitgh those tres with c.balance.
What I really would like to know is how to side in this list on 2nd turn when youre facin Tres which cards will you take out? which one will you put in?
the 2 snares as main , thats ritgh that dont help to combo off but its a option meta

I have been playing this list for a while too, with the exception of the Hydroblas, which were another Wipe Away, Brain Freeze and a random slot.

Generally, you board in 2 Spell Snare and 1-2 Wipe Away.
What goes out is up to you, but I'd board out at least 1 Remand and 1 Wish. The rest is usually stuff like Opt, but those are up to you.

[Pelikanudo]

I have been playing this list for a while too, with the exception of the Hydroblas, which were another Wipe Away, Brain Freeze and a random slot.

Generally, you board in 2 Spell Snare and 1-2 Wipe Away.
What goes out is up to you, but I'd board out at least 1 Remand and 1 Wish. The rest is usually stuff like Opt, but those are up to you.

waht you re playing is the deck from Nils Müller, ritfgh. I agree as well in not playing those hyfdroblast because there is almost no gobbos, and this side is as well stronger vs those fuckin dreadnouts . Its suposed youll side in 2 wipes, 3 truths and 2 sanrtes ritgh , but what will you take out?

[Van Phanel]

Cryptic Command is the worst cantrip to exist. It costs FOUR MANA, to draw ONE CARD. That's a terrible investment. The card is awful during the combo, and mediocre before the combo.

Have you tried not seeing it as a cantrip but rather as a toolbox in one card that has "draw a card" attached to it? Also, have you actually tried it?

I think you'll agree that Counterbalance has to be adressed some way (I'm currently 19-3-2 at my last few tournaments with two IDs and three losses against Threshold) and Command was my choice as it has its uses in every other (noncombo) matchup as well. Do you have a better idea? I'd sure appreciate hearing it (and no need to get into a hurry, take your time).



@Pelikanudo: Please try to use proper English. Your posts are close to unreadable.

FYI, Shimster is Nils Müller and I am Simon Ritzka. Our lists share the mainboard, only Shimster plays Peek instead of two Opt which isn't that big of a difference. So saying that Bahamuth plays one list of them or another doesn't really make much sense (especially as we all put some thoughts into that list).

For the boardingplan with 2 Spell Snare main:

UGw Balanced Thresh:
+ 2 Spell Snare
+ 1 Wipe Away
- 1 Opt
- 1 Impulse
- 1 ? (not sure about this yet. Not Wish however as you want to have access to Wipe Away)


I'm not sure about Dreadstill as I haven't yet had the chance to play against it. You'd want to board in all your Wipe Away's however (as they can counter Wish with CB thanks to Trinket Mage). Boarding Truth depends on how controlish you want to play and on the number of Wipe Away you have.


Generally leave one Wipe Away side at all times if your opponent (who plays CB) doesn't play cards with converted mana cost 3.

[Tacosnape]

Are we sure Threshold has to be addressed?

I mean, granted, it's kind of ballsy to take the Glass Cannon approach when the deck that completely destroys you is top tier and arguably the most played deck in the entire format. But short of dedicating ridiculous numbers of outs to beating Threshold, I can't consistently achieve a positive matchup against players who know how to play against Solidarity. Tarmogoyf's clock speed and Counterbalance's annoyingness cause problems. And if I want to dedicate that much effort to beating Threshold while compromising other matchups, why am I not playing a different deck entirely?

So what if you take a Solidarity build that absolutely throws away Threshold and is built with shoreups for faster combo decks and control matchups?

[Van Phanel]

An interesting idea. You really made me think about the other matchups and how good or bad they actually are.

The problem with that approach is that in order to make it work, you'd really have to have an insanely good matchup against the rest of the field, which isn't the case. In Legacy generally, there rarely is a matchup that is better (or worse) than 60-40. If you knew a way to improve those other matchups by a lot, this might be worth a try, but I can't think of one. Can you?

[Bahamuth]

An interesting idea. You really made me think about the other matchups and how good or bad they actually are.

The problem with that approach is that in order to make it work, you'd really have to have an insanely good matchup against the rest of the field, which isn't the case. In Legacy generally, there rarely is a matchup that is better (or worse) than 60-40. If you knew a way to improve those other matchups by a lot, this might be worth a try, but I can't think of one. Can you?

Well, first of all we could speed up the deck by adding Peer Trough Depths (I'm not saying we remove Impulse!). We could dedicate some SB slots to the combo matchup (Stifle? Disrupting Shoal?). Perhaps we could add Twincast to improve any other controllish matchups. 2 Brain Freeze should be in the board too.

I don't like giving away our Thresh matchup completely. I think this deck can have a reasonable chance against it. I remember lot's of time's winning against it.

[Pelikanudo]

Well, first of all we could speed up the deck by adding Peer Trough Depths (I'm not saying we remove Impulse!). We could dedicate some SB slots to the combo matchup (Stifle? Disrupting Shoal?). Perhaps we could add Twincast to improve any other controllish matchups. 2 Brain Freeze should be in the board too.

I don't like giving away our Thresh matchup completely. I think this deck can have a reasonable chance against it. I remember lot's of time's winning against it.

Please could you tell me How the hell did you win those tres match ups and how did you side?
I think if youre facin a tres with full pacckage of stifles its not very logic to play your full package of freeze, I mean we´d better resolve the draw spells instead of go directly to combo off.
Meekstone or Dryad+berserk are ways that are absolutly discarded ritgh?

[Willoe]

Please could you tell me How the hell did you win those tres match ups and how did you side?
I think if youre facin a tres with full pacckage of stifles its not very logic to play your full package of freeze, I mean we´d better resolve the draw spells instead of go directly to combo off.
Meekstone or Dryad+berserk are ways that are absolutly discarded ritgh?

Dryad and Meekstone each slaughters the real argument for playing Solidarity (Instant speed obv.). If you side in unplayable cards during mid-combo, you'll become more inconsistent. And even if you're boarding out the kill condtion for creature(s), the opponent will still be able to counter your dudes.

If you want to play creatures, at least play some with flash, seriously. That's what I think.

Here's some flashy creatures for blue:
http://magiccards.info/query/cards/3026589.html

What can be used? Draining Whelk? :confused:

Another option could be to play flash faeries.

Here's a possible sideboard.

4 Pestermite
4 Scion of Oona
4 Vendillion Clique
3 Mistbind Clique

Will that be too slow? The boarding plan could be -4 High Tide, -4 Reset, -2 Flash of Insight, -3 Turnabout (not sure yet), -2 Opt

How does this sound?

[Deep6er]

There's a problem with that strategy.

You need Cunning Wish. That kind of destroys the possibility for a full transitional sideboard. Also, most of those creatures are awful.

[Willoe]

I know, Cunning Wish is a very great strength against many, many decks.

But since this deck suffers from Counterbalance I just thought it could be an idea to metagame-tune your sideboard, even though if that would result in an exclusion of Cunning Wish + wishboard. Since Counterbalance would rarely hit your dudes and you can back them up with a lot of counters, I give this a test in some matches and post my results.

[Pelikanudo]

There's a problem with that strategy.

You need Cunning Wish. That kind of destroys the possibility for a full transitional sideboard. Also, most of those creatures are awful.

I absolutly agree.
Deeper could you tell me how will you side vs those tres with stifles and c.b?
supossin we are playin the Simon Ritzka solidarity deck(2 sanres main)?
because as I said dryad +dberserk or meekstone is not a way to handle those fuckin tres ritgh?

[Deep6er]

Stifle and Counterbalance? Kind of depends. However, there is an upside. If he's keeping a lot of his mana tied up in Counterbalance + Top, and leaving mana open for Stifle, then he's not playing creatures. Which means that careful use of draw spells can find you the Wipe Away(s) that you boarded in.

Since I haven't yet managed to find a list I like, I can't tell you what to board. Once I do though, then we can discuss that one.

[Lukas Preuss]

Seriously... you guys should probably test your ideas before posting all kinds of things here (no offense ment).

Why in the world would you only board Flash creatures when you board out Reset (the reason why this deck is Intants only)? Oh, and why would you board in creatures in the first place? The problem this deck has with the metagame isn't its wincondition. Brain Freeze (and Stroke of Genius) is absolutelly fine. The problem this deck has is to combo off through a Counterbalance. That's the problem you have to work on when you want this deck to succeed.

Seriously, Meekstone? More than half the time I played against Threshold with Solidarity recently, their Goyfs weren't bigger than 2/3 anyways.


Well, but since there is a discussion in this thread now, I will just post my newest list that I'm tweaking. I posted this list over on the Solidarity boards, but I'm rerally interested in Taco's and Deep6er's opinion, as well. Also, it would be great to have some discussion about Solidarity on TheSource.

Anyways, here's my list:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
8 [PT] Island (4)
1 [A] Tundra
1 [A] Tropical Island

// Spells
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [SC] Brain Freeze
4 [FE] High Tide (3)
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [VI] Impulse
4 [LG] Reset
3 [US] Turnabout
3 [OV] Meditate
4 [IN] Opt
4 [RAV] Remand
4 [CHK] Peer Through Depths

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [OV] Meditate
SB: 1 [US] Stroke of Genius
SB: 4 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
(there should be a Rebuild in here, as well)

The mana base is actually quite good. I never had any problems getting the duals when I needed them, and I never had one when I was facing Wasteland. If you fetch carefully (when they're tapped out, in response to their Fetchlands, etc.) you won't have much trouble with Stifle, either.

Also, the maindeck is based on the list that Tacosnape posted a few months ago, being a little faster and more consistent if you go off as early as turn 3. I've been extremely pleased with this maindeck and taking out Flash of Insight (and 1 Twincast and 1 Brainfreeze) for 4 Peer through Depths seems to be a solid choice.

I consider Krosan Grip essential to deal with Counterbalance... Much, much better than Wipe Away, because an early Counterbalance disables your ability to search for Cunning Wish (they counter every Brainstorm, Impulse, etc. you play) and makes you lose a lot of card advantage. Therefore you have to deal with Counterbalance as early as it hits the table... you can't afford to let it sit there until you're ready to combo off and bounce it EOT. If Counterbalance hits early and stays in play, you won't even be getting close to comboing off in many cases.

Orim's Chant has been an experiement, but with the aforementioned amount of fetchlands, you can easily afford to splash another color. Orim's Chant helps both the faster combo matchups and the Threshold matchup... just cast it during their upkeep to either combo off safely or to draw a counterspell from their hand. It is a must-counter for just one mana.

As you see, I have put a great deal of thinking into this decklist... Threshold (and all other kinds of Counterbalance powered Aggro-Control decks) are a huge part in the Western German metagame and you really need to be able to deal with them to play in a tournament. With the above mentioned decklist, you have a shot against them... without abandoning all other matchups. I faced UGW Counterbalance Threshold during the last Iserlohn tournament and absolutely slaughtered it 2-0 (I still dropped 2-2, because I wasn't feeling well, but that's besides the point). I'm not sure how crucial Orim's Chant was during that match, but Krosan Grip was a bomb! If you're metagame feateres a lot of Counterbalance, Krosan Grip alone warrants the green splash and you should definitely try it out.

[Benie Bederios]

If you're not sold on Orim's Chant, might I suggest Extirpate?

I just added 3 in SB and it's quite nice. I also have a Slaughter Pact in the SB and the combination is nice to remove all Goyfs from an opposing deck.

Extirpate makes the Ichorid matchup easier too and is not bad against combo. Stopping there Orim's Chant is gg most of the time, because you can normally win of there storm count. But you have to stop the first Chant though.

With the Green Splash you can als use to get rid of Counterbalance.

BB

[Bahamuth]

Obviously, the green splash is a very good plan if your meta is filled with Thresh. My lists have played 3 Wipe Away SB for quite a while now, and in most occasions, Grip is strictly better. After all this time, I still don't like splashing colours, because of obvious issues like Stifle and Wasteland. Yet, if there are barely any of those present on your meta, splashing is a really sound idea.

I have to say, I like Chant. The fact that it's a great too against both Thresh and Storm Combo makes it really shine. I still wonder tough, Abeyance might be better. Abeyance can be used to play trough CB/Top (with some luck, but that's definately worth the risk of playing it when your opponent has CB/Top out) because it forbids players to use their Top. Downside is that any smart player will put a 1CC card at the top of his library.

Chant obviously has the advantage of functioning as a semi-time walk (which can make it comparable to Remand) and the fact that it can be used to prevent your opponent from attacking in mid-combo (for WW tough).

I still like Spell Snare. I think I'm going to try out lists with Spell Snare and Grip a bit more. I also want to try Disrupting Shoal, which seems like a great card to me.

[Tacosnape]

I also like Chant. Chant is a monster against Storm Combo, strong against Landstill, and still useful against mid-speed blue decks.

Lukas's list is interesting. It implements the best of both splashes and the two cards that fix Solidarity's weaknesses best: Chant and Grip.

That said, I'll be honest. I don't like the green splash. Especially not in a double splash that takes two Duals to operate. Here's why.

The neat thing about sticking a single Tundra in the deck for Chant is that you can fetch it, you don't see it very often, and you can Brainstorm it back in a pinch. While the same can be said for Tropical Island, it gets harder with two Duals.

The other neat thing about Tundra/Orim's Chant is that there are almost zero situations in Legacy that fit the following two scenarios:

1. You need Orim's Chant.
2. Your opponent has nonbasic land hate.*

*This excludes Back to Basics, which you wreck due to Turnabout/Reset, and which actually makes Chant solid against MUC.

Wasteland-packing Threshold would be the one that makes a difference here, but I'm more or less proposing to concede Threshold anyway, so there you go.

Replace the above scenario with "1. You need Krosan Grip." Now the premise isn't true. You might need those Grips against Stax, or against Aggro Loam's or even Goblins' Chalices, and against decks like Dragon Stompy, their Moon effects can keep you off of your removal for their actual combo disruption pieces. This is essentially why I don't like the Green splash for Grip but I do like the White splash for Chant.

[lavafrogg]

Orims Chant also helps against permanent answers but chanting them during there upkeep and also turn one chant turn two remand turn three wish for bounce sounds cool to me.
I used to run a 3 color build that ran white for chant and green for grip but I did not run peer through the depths because you cut flash of insight and twincast which are awesome.
I will go as far to say cut the twincast but never cut the 2x flash of insight because it allows you to do stupid things like win the game.
I beleive I ran 3 think twice during that era because couterbalance wasnt around and b/w pikula was everywhere.

[GreenOne]

I was playing a version with 3x MD Abeyance and SB Orims for a meta with a good number of Tendrils decks. The Abeyances are not dead midcombo and i quite liked them.

Damn, this thing crushed combo all day.

[Lukas Preuss]

"1. You need Krosan Grip." Now the premise isn't true. You might need those Grips against Stax, or against Aggro Loam's or even Goblins' Chalices, and against decks like Dragon Stompy, their Moon effects can keep you off of your removal for their actual combo disruption pieces.

First, thanks for the positive feedback.

Now, all these cards you mentioned that are problematic are artifacts (with the exception of Blood Moon, but you run Echoing Truth in the board, as well. And Blood Moon really isn't that much of a problem if you fetch carefully and play your fetchlands first). Now, you should definitely still run Rebuild in the board to get rid of these artifacts (Trinisphere, Chalice, Smokestacks, etc.), but I think the manabase isn't much of a problem in these cases. You just play like "traditional" mono blue Solidarity in these matchups and deal with Chalice the old way: Rebuild.

Also, if you're really feeling quirky, just add a single Bound/Determined in the board to deal with Chalice. By the way, with both the white and the green splash, Bound/Determined feels a little stronger than Abeyance in this build (Just thought I'd mention this, because several people suggested Abeyance) because IF it comes through a Counterbalance, you've won.

[Willoe]

Lukas Preuss' arguments for Bound//Determined seem good. In some ways, Bound is just as good as Orim's Chant. You can't directly timewalk with it, but against aggro, you'd never assemble two white sources of mana to do this. Bound can actually bait counter or i.e. waiting the opponent to go off. Actually, there's a couple of pros in Bound:

Cantrips.
Pitches to FoW.
Does what you want it to do, just like Orim's Chant.
Doesn't get slaugthered directly by CounterTop as Chant does.
Straight out busts counterbalance if it resolves.

But:

It costs 1 more mana. (that is huge!)

So the choice is. Ug, Uw, or even Uwg? If you were forced to splash a color due to the heavy presence of NQG in your meta, which color would that be and why?

[Tacosnape]

For the record, if you scroll back far enough, I'm the one who initially suggested a green splash, and the card I suggested it for was indeed Bound and Determined. And yes, Determined wrecks Counterbalance if they can't get a 2fer on top of their library, and yes I'd be running it if I were running green. Cantripping and pitching to Force round it out as being awesome, and I would generally prefer Determined over Abeyance. Determined is solid.

Outside of Counterbalance, however, I'd rather have Orim's Chant, because in addition to being able to power you through a counterwall, Chant actually makes matchups against most faster storm combo decks workable. 4 Chants and 4 Forces give you a much better chance of safely working your way into the third or fourth turn, after which things start to swing in your favor.

[darkalucard]

Didn't Landstill, and Threshold push this deck out?

Wasn't Tarmogoyf Printed... it made those decks better... and this one worse...

Doesn't faster combo beat this deck?

The format adjust, changed and the competition got better.

What new has changed for this deck?

[Michael Keller]

Solidarity in the hands of a skilled and experienced player can still be a good deck. The format right now is being dictated primarily by combo and that spells a little trouble for Solidarity. It really depends on your metagame.

[freakish777]

Didn't Landstill, and Threshold push this deck out?

Wasn't Tarmogoyf Printed... it made those decks better... and this one worse...

Doesn't faster combo beat this deck?

The format adjust, changed and the competition got better.

What new has changed for this deck?

While I'm not actually working on decks involving High Tide or Reset (and won't be for some time), your post does have a ton of misconceptions in it.

For starters, Landstill, to my knowledge, was always a favorable match-up for Tide/Reset. Tarmogoyf may in fact give Landstill enough of a "man-plan" to try and aggro you out, but if they don't find and resolve a Goyf early, they lose. How you ask? It's really quite simple, Landstill runs 4 Counterspells and 4 Force of Wills and then 4 Brainstorms and 4 Standstills to try and find those cards. In comparison, every card in this deck is set up to sculpt your hand, or combo the opponent out. On turn 7 or so, the High Tide/Reset players hand will look like:

High Tide
High Tide
Reset
Turnabout
Meditate
Cunning Wish
Force of Will
Twincast

And the Landstill players hand will look like:

Swords to Plowshares
Wrath/Humility/Pernicious Deed
Counterspell
Counterspell
Force of Will
Standstill
Misrha's Factory

So you get 3 Counters. Do you battle of the High Tides? The untap effects? The draw spells? No matter what you choose to fight over here, the High Tide/Reset player wins (they may just use High Tide to bait, as 7 lands makes Reset a +5 mana spell, Turnabout a +3 mana spell, if you fight over the untap effects they have 3 in Reset, Turnabout and Cunning Wish, a pile of mana since 2 High Tides resolved and double back up in Force of Will and Twincast, if you fight over the draw spells, they have 2, Meditate and Cunning Wish, plus back up in Force of Will and Twincast).



Tarmogoyf isn't the card keeping this deck down. The recognition that Counterbalance is "the real deal" by many players is what's keeping this deck down. Tarmogoyf certainly helps, but it isn't the card that "makes this deck unplayable."



Faster combo beats this deck on a very strong opening hand and when you don't have Force of Will. Otherwise they (storm decks) run the risk of you high-jacking their storm (turn 3ish) on a hand like:

High Tide
Reset
Brain Freeze
Cunning Wish
1 High Tide/Reset/Turnabout
2 other cards

With 3 lands in play, you'd generate the 9 mana necessary to play Cunning Wish (grabbing Stroke of Genius), Stroke of Genius them for 1 or more, and then in response Brain Freeze them (16 or more copies) with their copies of Tendrils hanging on the stack.

Furthermore, playing Ill-Gotten Gains against this deck can be deadly, as it can go infinite off Ill-Gotten Gains with the following hand:

High Tide
Twincast
Reset
Brainstorm (note that this, or any other draw/Impulse spell can be in your graveyard as opposed to your hand)

With 3 lands in play (alternately 4 lands in play and no High Tide in hand) play Tide + Reset in response, giving you 8 mana, play Brainstorm, Twincast the IGG. Get back Reset, Brainstorm and Twincast, with the original IGG still on the stack. You create infinite mana and put your library into your bin, with an IGG still on the stack, you get back Cunning Wish for Stroke of Genius/Brain Freeze/whatever.

A deck like Belcher essentially resolves Belcher on turn 1 or 2 or loses. A deck like Ichorid would in fact be a problem (hence the potential of Extirpate, as eliminating their combo finish should be good enough, since their beatdown plan is just slow enough to give you time to put 4 lands into play).



Since the weak points are Counterbalance and potentially Ichorid, there's possibly some merit to exploring the use of Krosan Grip and Extirpate and seeing whether or not this deck can successfully adjust to the metagame.

[Tacosnape]

Didn't Landstill, and Threshold push this deck out?

Wasn't Tarmogoyf Printed... it made those decks better... and this one worse...

Doesn't faster combo beat this deck?

The format adjust, changed and the competition got better.

What new has changed for this deck?

1. Threshold and Faster Combo did, Landstill didn't. Solidarity's favorable against Landstill in the correct hands. Solidarity's generally favorable against absolutely anything that gives it ten turns to set up.

2. Yes. Tarmogoyf speeds up Threshold and any other deck packing creatures. However, it's worth noting that you, Solidarity, aren't really contributing to the growth of Tarmogoyf. All you can put in your yard are lands and instants. Threshold will almost always have one of the two and usually both pretty quick. I've found that the most common size of a Goyf against you in the early turns is in the 2/3 to 3/4 range. Tarmogoyf isn't the problem for Solidarity. It's the deck shell backing Tarmogoyf up.

3. Not necessarily. A board full of Chants to go with your Forces makes other Storm Combo pretty manageable. Twincast loops are strong against FT if you get time to Wish for one. And Ichorid will still wreck you more often than not due to pure speed and Cabal Therapy, but less than excellent draws/dredges give you time to set up, and sometimes you won't have a lot of library to mill away.

4. The format's always changed, but for awhile, a lot of decks surfacing lose to Solidarity. Stax and Enchantress had runs, the former being favored and the latter being a cakewalk. Goblins is easier than ever with Warren Weirding cutting away the deck's ability to create pressure. Survival isn't a bad matchup to see, nor is Landstill. Aggro Loam's a joy ride. And hate for combo decks, excluding Counterbalance, has veered largely away from things that hurt Solidarity.

5. Nothing. Orim's Chant or Krosan Grip/Determined as an adjustment to metagames, maybe. But then, Solidarity was always a deck that was a lot stronger than people gave it credit for, and it hasn't needed a lot to come along. I'm still 30-0 in tournament play with the deck. In hands more skilled than mine, it can still be a force.

[emidln]

Faster combo beats this deck on a very strong opening hand and when you don't have Force of Will. Otherwise they (storm decks) run the risk of you high-jacking their storm (turn 3ish) on a hand like:

High Tide
Reset
Brain Freeze
Cunning Wish
1 High Tide/Reset/Turnabout
2 other cards

With 3 lands in play, you'd generate the 9 mana necessary to play Cunning Wish (grabbing Stroke of Genius), Stroke of Genius them for 1 or more, and then in response Brain Freeze them (16 or more copies) with their copies of Tendrils hanging on the stack.

Furthermore, playing Ill-Gotten Gains against this deck can be deadly, as it can go infinite off Ill-Gotten Gains with the following hand:

High Tide
Twincast
Reset
Brainstorm (note that this, or any other draw/Impulse spell can be in your graveyard as opposed to your hand)

With 3 lands in play (alternately 4 lands in play and no High Tide in hand) play Tide + Reset in response, giving you 8 mana, play Brainstorm, Twincast the IGG. Get back Reset, Brainstorm and Twincast, with the original IGG still on the stack. You create infinite mana and put your library into your bin, with an IGG still on the stack, you get back Cunning Wish for Stroke of Genius/Brain Freeze/whatever.

A deck like Belcher essentially resolves Belcher on turn 1 or 2 or loses. A deck like Ichorid would in fact be a problem (hence the potential of Extirpate, as eliminating their combo finish should be good enough, since their beatdown plan is just slow enough to give you time to put 4 lands into play).



Since the weak points are Counterbalance and potentially Ichorid, there's possibly some merit to exploring the use of Krosan Grip and Extirpate and seeing whether or not this deck can successfully adjust to the metagame.

Faster combo is either a hell of a lot faster (see Belcher, TES, SI) or plays upwards of 10 control cards that can wreck you (see FT and their Chants, Abeyances, Thoughtseizes, and Extirpates). No deck except oldschool Iggy Pop will cast Ill-Gotten Gains against you unprotected or slow enough for you to Twincast loop it. Nobody plays that deck anymore, and the versions you'll run into pack either Chant/Abeyance/Thoughtseize/Extirpate or Chant/Force of Will/Pact of Negation/Extirpate. I'm not convinced that Solidarity can find 2+ disruption fast enough to beat TES or even control the stack against something like FT or iPop Negation.

[Giles]

Didn't Landstill, and Threshold push this deck out?

I agree to an extent to everyone's answers to the rest of the question that you posed.

However I have a different take on this question. It is not the any one deck that made this deck recede. It was the printing of Counterbalence. With traditional Counters, Solidarity can just Combo with the shit on the stack. However, Counterbalence negates this powerful effect that this deck has. Once someone figures out what to do with Counterbalence on a Solidarity mindset, the deck will be played more.

[Bahamuth]

I'm not convinced that Solidarity can find 2+ disruption fast enough to beat TES or even control the stack against something like FT or iPop Negation.

Yet it does. Take a look at the number of cantrips in this deck. It's definately not a big problem for this deck to find Fow. Beside that, Solidarity puts the TES player on a very quick clock. Playing Spell Snares, Remand and FoW, you definately have a fair chance against TES.

Fetchland Tendrills is a much different story. They're slower, but have more Chants. FT is barely faster than Solidarity, and I noticed I can often win by playing a single Brain Freeze to mill away my opponent's key cards, so he can't find them anymore with Infernal Tutor. The Doomsday versoin is even slower, and gives you the opportunity to win every time it plays an unprotected Doomsday (which will not be often, I know).

[emidln]

Yet it does. Take a look at the number of cantrips in this deck. It's definately not a big problem for this deck to find Fow. Beside that, Solidarity puts the TES player on a very quick clock. Playing Spell Snares, Remand and FoW, you definately have a fair chance against TES.

Fetchland Tendrills is a much different story. They're slower, but have more Chants. FT is barely faster than Solidarity, and I noticed I can often win by playing a single Brain Freeze to mill away my opponent's key cards, so he can't find them anymore with Infernal Tutor. The Doomsday versoin is even slower, and gives you the opportunity to win every time it plays an unprotected Doomsday (which will not be often, I know).

TES plays 8 cantrips 1cc cantrips compared to 8 1cc cantrips with Solidarity. Solidarity only plays an additional 4 Cantrips (at the 2cc slot) and the additional cantrips at the 1cc cantrips in the form of Peek/Opt slot don't make up for the mana cost or power level disparity between themselves and Ponder. TES plays 4 Chants preboard (the same number as FT, although without access to Mystical Tutor) as well as boarding either Thoughtseize, Pyroblast, or Xantid Swarm. The matchup seems to really favor TES here.

The non-doomsday version of FT is a turn and a half to two turns faster than Solidarity on average. It packs 4 Orim's Chants and 4 Mystical Tutors to find them preboard with 12 cantrips (the same as Solidarity). Additionally, the Solidarity nightmare play of turn 1-2 IGG (without the finishing Tendrils loop) is available to require a Force of Will or the Solidarity player's handsize is cut down to an unworkable level. This deck will bring in Abeyances and Extirpates (roughly the same disruption as the slower Doomsday deck) and won't lose much speed for it at all.

The Doomsday deck is actually a really interesting match. Controlling the stack is difficult because Solidarity's control cards are split between not losing to an offensive attack from Tendrils and not losing to a defensive attack with Orim's Chant/Abeyance. The same strategy for Doomsday that is so devastatingly effective in the Tendrils mirror of using superior card quality from Ponder/Top/Mystical Tutor to bring Orim's Chant/Abeyance, Thoughtseize, and Extirpate to bear wrecks havoc here as well as Solidarity can rarely afford to attempt to combo only to mana burn from a Reset or Turnabout caused by Extirpate/Thoughtseize protected Chants and Abeyances. (Tendrils is the control deck here and will wait to win until after it has established control of the game).

When I play this match with the Doomsday FT variant and Solidarity w/Spell Snare, the majority of the matches come down to topdecking with a very slight edge to FT almost entirely due to Extirpate on Force of Will rending most of Solidarity's defensive measures void (assuming the FT is competent enough to cast Chant on their own upkeep afterwards). This is a stark comparison to the general blowouts that are dealt to Solidarity by TES on the back of quick Chants/Swarms (resolved or not) followed by a combo attempt.

The major limiting factor here is that fast combo decks that aren't belcher form a total of roughly 5% of any given field. The other storm decks aren't what's keeping Solidarity down (although a metagame filled with TES, FT, or SI would be a horrible place to take Solidarity). The underlying issue is ubiquity of blue-based aggro-control strategies and heavy-discard green/black aggro-control strategies. These matchups, traditionally unfavorable for the best Solidarity pilots, can make up 50% of more a metagame that still includes heavy representations of Chalice of the Void. The traditional prey of Solidarity, slow control decks like Landstill and Rifter and defenseless aggro decks like Goblins have either fallen out of favor or adapted enough that the auto-win scenario isn't quite as automatic leading past 2-0s to close 2-1s or 1-2s.

[darkalucard]

So essentially the sum of many decks evolving and just the metagame evolving to a more "healthy state" pushed the deck out? About Goyf I meant it gave Threshold a faster clock, threshold is one of the problems right?

It seems that many people here believe the deck can do very well yet I have not seen any evidence of it being done and have talked to an avid Solidarity player who gave up the deck and I just do not understand completely why this deck could be making some kind of come back.

Or is it just that the deck is so skill intensive that the good players are just not playing it?

And if they are not playing it does that not mean there is something better?

[Hopo]

Or is it just that the deck is so skill intensive that the good players are just not playing it?

And if they are not playing it does that not mean there is something better?

As you said, it actually is extremely skill intensive. In golden days of solidarity people just weren't playing it in masses because it is either too difficult or thay didn't own Resets.

Solidarity as a deck needs a skilled pilot. It doesn't reward you if you just netdeck a new deck for every tournament and try to win more with your deck than your play skills. You just fizzle and the opponent thanks you.

Solidarity is raising again, thanks to eager, dedicated players who are willing to develop it to get a grip of the present meta. As people find more reliable and efficient ways to deal with all the counterbalances, expect to see solidarity in future top8's more often. Not even stax with all their lock pieces can stop the deck in it's old form, it is that good.

[Bahamuth]

As you said, it actually is extremely skill intensive. In golden days of solidarity people just weren't playing it in masses because it is either too difficult or thay didn't own Resets.

Solidarity as a deck needs a skilled pilot. It doesn't reward you if you just netdeck a new deck for every tournament and try to win more with your deck than your play skills. You just fizzle and the opponent thanks you.

Solidarity is raising again, thanks to eager, dedicated players who are willing to develop it to get a grip of the present meta. As people find more reliable and efficient ways to deal with all the counterbalances, expect to see solidarity in future top8's more often. Not even stax with all their lock pieces can stop the deck in it's old form, it is that good.

That is true, I hope. I'm convinced we can strenghten our weaker matchups by developing this deck further. I've been playing Solidarity quite a while now, and while it isn't as strong as it was, It's certainly an established tier 2 deck that can compete with the rest of the field.

Emidln, you are right. I don't mean to say that TES or FT are favoured for Solidarity, but many people are saying Solidarity became obsolete because of the rise of fast storm combo, which isn't such a bad matchup. My results against TES, which is a matchup I've played a rediculous amout of times against a very competent player (who wins every goddamn tournament he plays in....) aren't too bad at all. I'd say 40/60 in favour of TES is a good estimate. You can definately win this match.

FT I haven't tested enough, but I think the results will be kind of like those from TES. It seems you have more experience with it, Emidln, so could you maybe describe how a Solidarity player should play against FT? It should be very helpful for the primer.

I fouund Belcher to be the easiest matchup in the storm combo section by the way. With Truths sideboard and plenty of ways to find FoW, I'd say the matchup is favourable.

[Pelikanudo]

Hi The deck I play is the one with 2 snares main, and wipe aways and truths from side, I think it s the best for the current meta and I say that the only bad match ups I find difficult to win are: Tres and now, the phyrexian dreadnoth variants, I win the rest of match ups easyly( ichorid, teps, deadguy ale, etc etc)
well I'd like to know how to side vs those tres in order to improve this match up please boys tell me how do you do I thouth in so many things... (yeah meekstone was my idea and dryad...) orims or bound/determined or abeyance you boys say that are some kind of help.
I really find the snares-wipe away package enough to handle the c.b trouble.
wipeaway and truth as well help vs those angry dreadnouths and possible mages.
Maybe Meloku could be a good option vs tres or telekinesis, vedalken shackless..? Im desperating Ive tryed sooo many things to improve the tres mautch up.... I'd be a Pro if i won tres match ups¡¡ please help help¡¡

[Bahamuth]

Hi The deck I play is the one with 2 snares main, and wipe aways and truths from side, I think it s the best for the current meta and I say that the only bad match ups I find difficult to win are: Tres and now, the phyrexian dreadnoth variants, I win the rest of match ups easyly( ichorid, teps, deadguy ale, etc etc)
well I'd like to know how to side vs those tres in order to improve this match up please boys tell me how do you do I thouth in so many things... (yeah meekstone was my idea and dryad...) orims or bound/determined or abeyance you boys say that are some kind of help.
I really find the snares-wipe away package enough to handle the c.b trouble.
wipeaway and truth as well help vs those angry dreadnouths and possible mages.
Maybe Meloku could be a good option vs tres or telekinesis, vedalken shackless..? Im desperating Ive tryed sooo many things to improve the tres mautch up.... I'd be a Pro if i won tres match ups¡¡ please help help¡¡

Dude, I've said this several times, but you don't seem to listen. I find it hard to take you serious if you don't type in proper English. It's a pain to read through that text.

Dryad and Meekstone had all been suggested earlier and have been dismissed. You should read trough this thread first.

Telekinesis and Meloku both suck. Shackles might not suck, but still sucks too much to play. It cripples your combo way to much and costs too much mana to reliably play around Daze. I wouldn't play it.

As for sideboarding against Thresh, as I also said before, find it out your self. The strategy you find working the best depends completely on your playstyle. I suggest taking out some Remands and Wishes (assuming you board Wipe Away in). Try the rest out yourself.

[Tacosnape]

It seems that many people here believe the deck can do very well yet I have not seen any evidence of it being done and have talked to an avid Solidarity player who gave up the deck and I just do not understand completely why this deck could be making some kind of come back.

Or is it just that the deck is so skill intensive that the good players are just not playing it?

And if they are not playing it does that not mean there is something better?

Decks post results as the sum of how often their played. Solidarity never made top 8 with high frequency due in large part to the fact that it only had a few dedicated pilots. Solidarity showed up once to Threshold or Goblins' 10 times during its busiest days. And except for a very brief span it was almost unheard of to see more than one or two copies of Solidarity in a huge tournament. Nowadays, Solidarity doesn't post results because people don't play it.

The thing about Solidarity is that it appeals to a very small base of player. It's intricate, highly complicated, takes months of dedication to play well and more still to master, and unlike a brief span it enjoyed back in the day, it's not considered to be in the very top echelon of decks. Also, it's not new and shiny. It hasn't changed hardly at all in several blocks.

Therefore you have to find someone who has the skill and dedication enough to enjoy playing a complicated, intricate deck, yet not the "Play the best deck or play the second best that beats the best deck" attitude commonly found in experts. And someone who can pick up a deck that isn't new and shiny. Therefore it's not surprising that most of the people playing Solidarity are the people who have been playing it for a long time.

Solidarity isn't the best deck and it loses to the best deck. But it beats a shitload of others. And in the right hands it'll see you to your fair share of top eights. Just most people want the newer, shinier decks, and Solidarity hasn't changed at all in several sets.

[Pelikanudo]

The strategy you find working the best depends completely on your playstyle. I suggest taking out some Remands and Wishes (assuming you board Wipe Away in). Try the rest out yourself.


Well I have to say that a player do not have a different playstyle than other
this point is incorrect: A player plays better or worse than other therefore there will be a correct or an incorrect way to side I mean if your way of siding can be better or worse than mine. And I ask the people to tell me how they side vs tres decks. because my playstile is based on statistics and maths I mean I have no playstile.
Another point I do not have the proficiency grade of english im not English

[Bahamuth]

Well I have to say that a player do not have a different playstyle than other
this point is incorrect: A player plays better or worse than other therefore there will be a correct or an incorrect way to side I mean if your way of siding can be better or worse than mine. And I ask the people to tell me how they side vs tres decks. because my playstile is based on statistics and maths I mean I have no playstile.
Another point I do not have the proficiency grade of english im not English

Your last post was full of typing errors. This one was much better.

What I mean is your gameplan for beating Thresh. There are basically two different routes you can use. The first is to counter all threats, and therefore buy yourself enough time to find answers for stuff like CB and scuplt a strong hand. The other is saving your counters for your combo, where you will be on a much faster clock to race your opponents creatures and other hindering permanents.

My plan with 2 Spell Snare mainboard and 3 Remand is usually this:
-1/2 Wish
-1 Remand
-1 Opt
-1 Impulse

+2 Spell Snare
+2/3 Wipe Away

[Pelikanudo]

Your last post was full of typing errors. This one was much better.
My plan with 2 Spell Snare mainboard and 3 Remand is usually this:
-1/2 Wish
-1 Remand
-1 Opt
-1 Impulse

+2 Spell Snare
+2/3 Wipe Away

My conclusions are next: you prefer to take out ways to find the ritgh pieces than taking out directly the pieces. Why?
supossing we play 3 wipeaway we will play 2 main 1 in side ritgh? therefore if we leave 1 in side why do we side out 1 cunnin wish?
Won't you side out 1 high tide instead 1 cunnin wish in order to get more chances of getting the tide OR another wipeaway.
siding by this way how does the victory ratio get improved?

About the 4 cards you take out I absolutly agree with remand. I have doubts about the other 3 because I find the Ways to find the pieces slots to not to take out whatever happens. I mean Another way to side is to taking out cards belong to the category of 'pieces' like turnabout or tide

well now the thread is going on by the correct way.
Agree?

[Bahamuth]

My conclusions are next: you prefer to take out ways to find the ritgh pieces than taking out directly the pieces. Why?
supossing we play 3 wipeaway we will play 2 main 1 in side ritgh? therefore if we leave 1 in side why do we side out 1 cunnin wish?
Won't you side out 1 high tide instead 1 cunnin wish in order to get more chances of getting the tide OR another wipeaway.
siding by this way how does the victory ratio get improved?

About the 4 cards you take out I absolutly agree with remand. I have doubts about the other 3 because I find the Ways to find the pieces slots to not to take out whatever happens. I mean Another way to side is to taking out cards belong to the category of 'pieces' like turnabout or tide

well now the thread is going on by the correct way.
Agree?

Solidarity is probably one of the most difficult decks to sideboard with. I'm not sure about boarding out one High Tide. I can see why it's useful, but I think Wish will be needed to find other pieces to answer or help in the combo.

It's certainly a good option to board out all 3/4 Remand, but those will have to be replaced by Brain Freeze, to make sure you will be able to find a kill. The combo is much less mana-intensive that way and the strategy allows for several mini-combo's. This, on it's own turn, will make you less dependant on the quality of your (and perhaps your opponents) hand, and that again gives you the opportunity to be more aggressive with your counters.

I board out 1 Opt and 1 Impulse because there is pretty much not much else you can safely board out. All the other cards are too important for your combo to lose. How's this (again with 2 Spell Snare, 3 Remand and 0 Wipe Away mainboard):

-3 Remand
-1 Opt
-1 High Tide
-1 Impulse

+2 Spell Snare
+2 Brain Freeze
+2 Wipe Away

Looks nice. It will indeed get most out of Wish this way.

Another question: In the Thresh matchup, Reset get's hit by Spell Snare. Is it a correct idea to board out a Reset for a Turnabout perhaps?

[Pelikanudo]

-3 remand
-1 Opt
-1 High Tide
-1 Impulse

+2 Spell Snare
+2 Brain Freeze
+2 Wipe Away

Looks nice. It will indeed get most out of Wish this way.

Another question: In the Thresh matchup, Reset get's hit by Spell Snare. Is it a correct idea to board out a Reset for a Turnabout perhaps?

I do think reset is lamost of times countered by the snare so its a good option to take it out.
My way to side out the cards is to taking out combo pieze in order to get more chances to get the correct card I mean : you maaany times in resp to a medlin mage and havin g no FoW you play impulse to look for it ritgh?
this situation will happen when our oppon plays a C.B and we want FoW OR Snare and having impulse OR opt in hand we simply have more chances to get this card that handles the trouble.

Another point is that last developments of tres decks carry full package of stifles and I think the correct way to win a tres deck is drawing via card drawers , not to getting 4 freezes in hand. I mean the card that must not be countered is the meditate. If our oppon has 4 stifles in hand and no counters for sure he will win if we have 4 freze in hand but for sure he won´t if we combo out by the ritgh via, I mean binding spells and having a turnabout to tap him out.
So maybe we board out:
-1 high tide
-1 reset
-2 remand
Note :we took out 3 cards of cost 2 to not to be snared too frequently
In:
2 snares
2 wipeaway
(for sure we will have 1 wipeaway and 1 freeze and 1 reset and 1 tide in side this makes the cunnin a card not to be taken out, it even is retired to not to let tarmo any chance of getting bigger :)). Opinions?

[Illuvator Brightstar]

Decks post results as the sum of how often their played. Solidarity never made top 8 with high frequency due in large part to the fact that it only had a few dedicated pilots. Solidarity showed up once to Threshold or Goblins' 10 times during its busiest days. And except for a very brief span it was almost unheard of to see more than one or two copies of Solidarity in a huge tournament. Nowadays, Solidarity doesn't post results because people don't play it.

The thing about Solidarity is that it appeals to a very small base of player. It's intricate, highly complicated, takes months of dedication to play well and more still to master, and unlike a brief span it enjoyed back in the day, it's not considered to be in the very top echelon of decks. Also, it's not new and shiny. It hasn't changed hardly at all in several blocks.

Therefore you have to find someone who has the skill and dedication enough to enjoy playing a complicated, intricate deck, yet not the "Play the best deck or play the second best that beats the best deck" attitude commonly found in experts. And someone who can pick up a deck that isn't new and shiny. Therefore it's not surprising that most of the people playing Solidarity are the people who have been playing it for a long time.

Solidarity isn't the best deck and it loses to the best deck. But it beats a shitload of others. And in the right hands it'll see you to your fair share of top eights. Just most people want the newer, shinier decks, and Solidarity hasn't changed at all in several sets.

This seems like an ideal time to pop my head in :p

I'm a player who's been around magic for a long time, but am just now getting into the Eternal formats. When perusing the web for a legacy deck to settle on, it was Solidarity that caught my eye, mainly for the reasons you mentioned. Highly intricate, player dependant, and, as a general rule, people don't play it anymore :p

You guys have any advice as to a starting point for learning the ins and outs of the deck? I'm assuming it's probably one of those "just play it 50 million times" situations? :)

[Bahamuth]

This seems like an ideal time to pop my head in :p

I'm a player who's been around magic for a long time, but am just now getting into the Eternal formats. When perusing the web for a legacy deck to settle on, it was Solidarity that caught my eye, mainly for the reasons you mentioned. Highly intricate, player dependant, and, as a general rule, people don't play it anymore :p

You guys have any advice as to a starting point for learning the ins and outs of the deck? I'm assuming it's probably one of those "just play it 50 million times" situations? :)

Yeah basically. Goldfishing is quite useful, but make sure you get experience with the deck in real matches. I wish there was a new primer I could present to you, but, altough we're kind of working on it, it's far from finished because we all don't know what the best list and strategy is. The best thing you can do is simply read this entire threat, which will absolutely help. It might take a bit of time tough....

[gobblor]

I am new to legacy and thinking about maybe trying this deck but I was wondering what do you guys do about gaea's blessing could someone explain please?

[GreenOne]

Gaea's blessing ability goes on stack. When it does, you can respon Remanding your brain Freeze, casting it again to empty their library, and then cunning wish for stroke of genious.

[VonDoom]

Imho, the real problem of Solidarity is that you can autolose to decks that were not even prepared to play against it.

One for all is Faerie Stompy.
Chalices, Trinis and FOW

And what will you say to dreadstill?
They play 6/7 stifles.... and some of these are split second

Plus to that, painter is coming in, taking Gaeas into SBs

And in my neighborhood, dreadstill represents quite the 20% of decks you'll find in a tourney.
And there are too some really goods (and really luck) High Tide players, they usually top8 in all tourney they go, but I've never seen one of them in the final....

[Bahamuth]

Imho, the real problem of Solidarity is that you can autolose to decks that were not even prepared to play against it.

One for all is Faerie Stompy.
Chalices, Trinis and FOW

And what will you say to dreadstill?
They play 6/7 stifles.... and some of these are split second

Plus to that, painter is coming in, taking Gaeas into SBs

And in my neighborhood, dreadstill represents quite the 20% of decks you'll find in a tourney.
And there are too some really goods (and really luck) High Tide players, they usually top8 in all tourney they go, but I've never seen one of them in the final....

Faerie Stompy is a tough matchup, but as far as I know, not unwinnable. The deck is barely played, so it's not a big deal.

Dreadstill is a tough matchup as well. I've never played it, but looking at the list, the deck seems really strong against us.

I doubt many people will sideboard Blessing because of Painter-combo.

[GreenOne]

Imho, the real problem of Solidarity is that you can autolose to decks that were not even prepared to play against it.

One for all is Faerie Stompy.
Chalices, Trinis and FOW

And what will you say to dreadstill?
They play 6/7 stifles.... and some of these are split second

Plus to that, painter is coming in, taking Gaeas into SBs

And in my neighborhood, dreadstill represents quite the 20% of decks you'll find in a tourney.
And there are too some really goods (and really luck) High Tide players, they usually top8 in all tourney they go, but I've never seen one of them in the final....

Stifle and Trickbind are not really problems if not backed with counterspells and Counterbalances. Remember you can Remand your Brain Freeze even against a trickbind.

And note that all those decks you cited fair well with other combo decks too. It's a general problem combo have right now. Many stifles and many counterbalances (or other permanent-based storm hate).

oh, and last time I tested solidarity against Faerie Stompy (long ago) it was something around 45-55 on their side. Not that bad.

[freakish777]

And what will you say to dreadstill?
They play 6/7 stifles.... and some of these are split second


All the more reason to run Krosan Grips in the main. Let them play their Dreadnought and Stifle it. Then just Krosan Grip it, getting a 2 for 1, and giving yourself 1 less Stifle to play around when you do go to combo.

It seems to me that the real problem with Dreadstill is that they could be packing 4 Counterbalance + 4 Dreadnoughts, giving you more targets for Krosan Grip than you can actually run.

[Benie Bederios]

Imho, the real problem of Solidarity is that you can autolose to decks that were not even prepared to play against it.

One for all is Faerie Stompy.
Chalices, Trinis and FOW

And what will you say to dreadstill?
They play 6/7 stifles.... and some of these are split second

Plus to that, painter is coming in, taking Gaeas into SBs

And in my neighborhood, dreadstill represents quite the 20% of decks you'll find in a tourney.
And there are too some really goods (and really luck) High Tide players, they usually top8 in all tourney they go, but I've never seen one of them in the final....

In testing you can win G1 against Dreadstill more often than you think. Most of the time they try to stifle fetches and play a fast Standstill. When that happens you win. Your perfect hand > their perfect hand most of the time. From the SB come in Orim's Chant to beat them post board.

It's not easy, but it is winnable.

[TripleAgent]

Oona's Grace, anyone? Bad cost, but (almost) never fizzle again as long as you have loads of mana? Doubles as post-freeze win con as it targets...

[Valtrix]

No, not at all. You're simply not going to get enough lands to ever use it as a win condition, and you might not even want to discard lands to use it much to begin with, since you'll be mostly playing them. A single card is hardly going to help you anyway. You'd have to use retrace at least twice ot make it somewhat useful, but even then you could just run fact or fiction instead for better card selection/draw. Flash of insight works much better as a three cost/repeat card. Tech if you run cunning wish too =P

[Funky-kun]

The usefulness of Oona's Grace comes from the fact that it immensely improves the "Brainfreeze yourself" tactic, letting you get a Grace in grave, and letting you pick any card with Flash of Insight, rather than Meditate. I am testing with Oona's grace as a one-of at the moment, and I have mixed feelings. Outside of the above described situation the card preforms medicore to poor.

[Valtrix]

No, it really does not help that at all. THe card draw that oona's grace gives you is just terrible >_< Brainfreezing yourself is usually pointless, because what are you looking for if you can't brainfreeze them to death? It would hardly "Greatly" increase brainfreezing yourself, because you'd still need land in hand, and solidarity usually wants as much land as possible to do more things. Plus, you'd need to hope that it'd be put in your yard anyway. How would it ever be better than fact or fiction, for example? It's weak digging power, and certainly not card advantage, though maybe a little card quality.

[Funky-kun]

Brainfreezing yourself is done only when you have no draw cards in hand, which usually happens when drawing 3-4 land form Meditate. The point is to stack the entire library with Flash of insight, and here is the situation in which Oona's Grace helps a lot: if you deck all your Meditates in the Grave you have no other chance of gaining CA (additional Flashes of Insight aside). So you can get another untap spell instead, and having 2-3 lands in hand and now enough mana (thanks to the untap) you can get the other stacked cards on the top of your library you require to win. Plus, you don't need to wish for Stroke of Genius when needing an instant-speed kill thanks to Grace.

Fact or Fiction is absolutely out of the discussion, as it has been tested, and is not the type of card this deck needs.

[TripleAgent]

No, it really does not help that at all. THe card draw that oona's grace gives you is just terrible >_< Brainfreezing yourself is usually pointless, because what are you looking for if you can't brainfreeze them to death? It would hardly "Greatly" increase brainfreezing yourself, because you'd still need land in hand, and solidarity usually wants as much land as possible to do more things. Plus, you'd need to hope that it'd be put in your yard anyway. How would it ever be better than fact or fiction, for example? It's weak digging power, and certainly not card advantage, though maybe a little card quality.

It's more for mid combo draw/anti fizzling tech. going off with relatively few lands, recovering combo turns where you draw the dreaded 3 or 4 lands off Meditate, or as a storm enabler (tartget opponent to draw X times, discard X lands, in response, Freeze FTW).

[Van Phanel]

Oona's Grace sucks.

Because of its flexibility, it is a better mainboard winoption (carddraw for an opponent) compared to Words of Wisdom but that's about it. It's incredible clunkyness prevents it from being good. Would it cost 1U I could maybe (probably still worse than Think Twice) see it as a one-of, but not as printed.

@Triple Agent: You can't actually target an opponent X times with Oona's grace because in order to replay it, it has too be in your grave and that means in turn, that you have to let it resolve first. Not that it matters because the card sucks anyway.

@Funky-Kun: Honestly: Why don't you run a singleton Think Twice over Oona's Grace (or maybe a third Flash)?


Oona's Grace, anyone? Bad cost, but (almost) never fizzle again as long as you have loads of mana? Doubles as post-freeze win con as it targets...

What are you going to replace? Isn't that card going to win the game anyway if you have loads of mana?

[GreenOne]

Oona's Grace sucks.

Because of its flexibility, it is a better mainboard winoption (carddraw for an opponent) compared to Words of Wisdom but that's about it. It's incredible clunkyness prevents it from being good. If it would cost 1U I could maybe (probably still worse than Think Twice) see it as a one-of, but not as printed.


I'm with you about everything. If it costed 1U, however, maybe I'd play it in 2x. That's it, as it is it just sucks.

[Bahamuth]

Agreed. I tried it. The card is absolutely crap in mid-combo. I also almost never found it useful to end a combo. Usually you have another way to archieve that available, or you were going to fizzle anyway.

[deviant]

What are people running for the last two slots atm?

The ones that are usually either:
2x Spell Snare
4th Remand and a Twincast
2x Peer Through Depths
2x Think Twice
or 2x Cryptic Command?

I'm currently with Command, mostly because It's so versatile. Cantripping fog and an out to CB are both welcome additions.

Thoughts?

[Van Phanel]

You can try any combination of the mentioned cards (except 1 Spell Snare + 1 other card of course), whatever you like most.

- Remand is great against any deck playing Chalice and the Time Walk is really good against any non-goblin aggro (and also against Goblins if you deal with Vial/ Lackey). Unfortunately Thresh-players seem to always have the Daze for our turn2 Remand.

- Peer through Depths is at its best if you have to find certain spells really fast and don't care about your opponent knowing what you have, that means against aggro(High Tide) and other (non-graveyard) combo (Force of Will).

- Think Twice is best against lots of discard and even a singleton greatly improves Brain Freeze on yourself. It is pretty clunky to cast out of your hand, so I wouldn't run two anymore, especially as it usually is to slow against Threshold.

- Twincast is the best choice to fight opposing counters, but it doesn't do much on it's own, that's why it isn't good as more than a one-of in the main.

- Cryptic Command is my personal choice because it does whatever you need. Usually it does Draw + X but I've used any combination of modes except Counter + Tap in actual tournament play so far (and even counter + tap has come up in several testgames). In any matchup that isn't fastcombo, it is absolutely huge and currently I wouldn't want to go without it.

[Fons]

How does this build look?
I don't have the money for fetches right now.
My meta game should be mostly combo and aggro.
Combo will be Enchantress and Iggy.
Aggro will be Goblins and Rock.

2 Brainfreeze
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
4 Opt
3 Remand
4 Reset
2 Peer Through Depths
3 Turnabout

18 Island

Sideboard
1 Brainfreeze
3 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation
1 Rebuild
4 Spell Snare
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
2 Wipeaway

[GreenOne]

How does this build look?
I don't have the money for fetches right now.
My meta game should be mostly combo and aggro.
Combo will be Enchantress and Iggy.
Aggro will be Goblins and Rock.

2 Brainfreeze
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
4 Opt
3 Remand
4 Reset
2 Peer Through Depths
3 Turnabout

18 Island

Sideboard
1 Brainfreeze
3 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation
1 Rebuild
4 Spell Snare
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
2 Wipeaway

If you're not going to play against counterbalance go with -2 Wipe Away +2 Disrupt/Hydroblast. ALso, I'd play a misdirection instead of a pact of negation and -1 Peer +1 Remand.

[Julian23]

How does this build look?
I don't have the money for fetches right now.
My meta game should be mostly combo and aggro.
Combo will be Enchantress and Iggy.
Aggro will be Goblins and Rock.


AFAICT Cryptic Command mainboard is a really good choice against Enchantress as it provides (additional) bounce which comes in handy once Sterling Grove hits the table.

[Van Phanel]

Against Fetchland Tendrils run Twincast side. It provides you with additional outs against their Orim's Chants.

Mainboard Cryptic Command is not a bad choice against enchantress, but if you aren't able to get Fetchlands, you should try to get those first, they are mre important.

In your meta, I'd go with the fourth Remand as it is okay against goblins and great against all other mentioned decks (try Remanding flashbacked Cabal Therapy against Rock if possible).

Against all mentioned decks Misdirection is better than Pact of Negation (or both aren't relevant).

[arsenalpow]

I played a very stock list to a top 2 split over the weekend in a really small 8 man tourney

rd 1 UGr Thresh (with swans combo) - Draw
rd 2 Stock madness - Win
rd 3 Ichorid - Win

top 4 affinity - Win
top 2 UGr Thresh (same as rd 1) - Split

I think it's finally time to say its over for this deck....Every single deck was an absolute fight
thresh had C/B, stifles, forces, dazes....
madness had counterspell, circular logic, and forces...
ichorid could outrace me (i went off on turn 3 which was really lucky in game 2)
Affinity can just race as well if it vomits its hand up and draws a plating or some shrap blasts....

The meta i played the deck in was horrendously behind the times and the deck still had to fight tooth and nail to win. The format has sped up to a point where it just can't win under pressure every single game.

RIP solidarity (for me at least)
:cry:

[Bahamuth]

It's true Solidarity has to fight for every win. This has been quite true for a long time. Luckily, there are still some autowins for this deck, like Landstill and Loam. Yet, the fact that you have to fight hard doesn't mean this deck is too slow. The deck is perfectly capable of beating non-black Thresh and Ichorid.

[Nihil Credo]

Luckily, there are still some autowins for this deck, like Landstill and Loam.

Ironically, Solidarity just lost to 43 Lands in the ICBM Open top 8 :laugh:

[Bahamuth]

Ironically, Solidarity just lost to 43 Lands in the ICBM Open top 8 :laugh:

Yea, shit happens. I lost to 43 Lands myself in a top 8 a while ago too. Unlucky topdecks, Chalice, Port and some fast beats cost me that match.

Who was playing Solidarity? Are there any lists?

Edit: Nevermind. Should've looked first.

[e_hawk77]

bahamuth is right solidarity was always a fight. It was play back when vial goblins was really big and still did well then. Now there are a few better answers to it but if you have a good pilot you can still win match-ups. personaly I like it becuase it is a fight and I hate playing the thresh mirror all day long. I dont think it is dead it just needs to be tuned and needs more pilots that are skilled with the deck.

And autowins are not really autowins. I played in a tourney awhile back and won it with goblins going 2-0 in my last two matchs vs rifter and 43 lands.

[Pelikanudo]

I have to ask A question that makes me no sleep only to Experts:

supossing we have no high tides in hand , 3 lands one of those fetch in play and 1 impulse inpulse in hand .( I've to mention that until this point we haven't made any suffle effect)
Well If our goal is to get the High tide What is more efficient:
1) fetch the land and next play the Impulse
2) play the impulse and next play fetch for land.

In my oppinion the 2nd point is the correct because If we haven't draw the H.Tide in our opening hand of 7 cards we will break the statistics of finding one in the next 4 cards if we make any sufle effect.
Somebody says this is incorrect because you can not supose that H.Tide is nearer once you draw 7 cards....
But we are supposed we are all agree that if for instance we are facing a control deck like.. landstill the best hand we can draw is 7 islands Ritgh?.
Please help everybody ¡¡¡¡
Please Gearheart give me your advice as you were the creator¡¡¡¡


A point is that because we play 4 H.Tide we are SUPOSSED and ONLY SUPOSSED that if we play 60 cards the first occurence of H.Tide will be found in the 15th position. Of course that the 4 H.Tides CAN stay in the range 56 to 60th position but this is an issue that we simply dont contemplate

[arsenalpow]

ok lets just look at the math of the situation

Lets assume you were on the play

Your board consists of
3 islands
1 fetch

Your hand consists of at least an impulse and 5 other cards (you started with 7, you drew a card every turn and only played a land per turn)

You have used 10 cards from your deck so far (assuming you played no other spells during the game) so there are 50 cards to work with. You do not know the order of your library. There are 4 high tides in the deck.

Lets suppose you impulse without fetching. Here are the percentages that the card could be a high tide

1st card - 4/50 (8.00%)
2nd card - 4/49 (8.16%)
3rd card - 4/48 (8.33%)
4th card - 4/47 (8.51%)

Then lets suppose you fetch before you impulse, this will reduce your library count by 1 additional card. Here are the new percentages for the impulse.

1st card - 4/49 (8.16%)
2nd card - 4/48 (8.33%)
3rd card - 4/47 (8.51%)
4th card - 4/46 (8.69%)

By the math, the correct play would be to fetch prior to the impulse, You increase your odds of finding a high tide by 0.69% if you fetch before the impulse. Granted, its not a whole lot better off odds, but nonetheless better...

[GreenOne]

IWell If our goal is to get the High tide What is more efficient:
1) fetch the land and next play the Impulse
2) play the impulse and next play fetch for land.


The probability remains the same (based on the number of cards you have in the deck) so #1 is generally better, cause it reduces the number of cards in the deck.

However, if you did an Impulse, Opt, Flash of insight (>1) before in the game then you want to not crack the fetch, because you know some amount of non-High Tide cards are on the bottom of the deck, increasing the odds of an High Tide in the top cards.

[lebarion]

However, if you did an Impulse, Opt, Flash of insight (>1) before in the game then you want to not crack the fetch, because you know some amount of non-High Tide cards are on the bottom of the deck, increasing the odds of an High Tide in the top cards.

I was about to say the same thing. In most situations, you should not use a shuffle effect after an Impulse if it didn't find you what you want.

[Pelikanudo]

I was about to say the same thing. In most situations, you should not use a shuffle effect after an Impulse if it didn't find you what you want.

when you use an impulse and dont find the card you want you mean then you dont fetch if you use inmediatly next another searching effect.
if this is ritgh I thjink that drawing 7 cards , and dont find what you need ,and next use impulse BEFORE fetching is the same thing. So I think you boys are agree with me.

[e_hawk77]

I think this question also depends on the hand u have. If u have some cards u dont need or want til later in the combo turn like brainfreeze or cunning wish or if u have like 4 reset/turnabouts and need more cantrips. If this is the case then i think u save ur fetch for a brainstorm that way u can hopefully get rid of some of those cards. Also if u need more lands then i wouldn't fetch either. But if u just needed the high tide percentage wise it is better to fetch.

[Bahamuth]

Fetching to increase the chance of finding a certain non-land card is practically never a good idea. Fetch is much better when saved until you find a Brainstorm. That heavily outweighs increasing the chances of finding Tide. Having a fetch available in mid-combo is really good. Don't break fetch unless you just played a Brainstorm or you are forced to do so (Needle, Stifle, you know).

[frenchy-man]

Hi

I have played solidarity for many months, and the problem I checked out was the slow of this deck.
So the question I was asking myself is : has someone ever try to run the deck without the counters (or letting the set of fow/remand but not both of them) ?
It could perhaps improve the speed of the deck, and the capacity to kill on turn 3.

My question may be stupid but as I don't play it anymore reading this thread could force me to rediscover solidarity...