[DTB] Vial Goblins

[drizzt]

This is the decklist I ran at a local tourney placing 2nd.

Vial Goblins

4*Wasteland
4*Wooded Foothills
2*Bloodstained Mire
2*Plateau
6*Mountain
2*Plains

4*Aether Vial
4*Goblin Lackey
4*Goblin Piledriver
4*Goblin Matron
4*Goblin Ringleader
3*Goblin Warchief
3*Gempalm Incinerator
2*Siege-Gang Commander
1*Goblin Sharpshooter
1*Kiki-Jiki, Mirrorbreaker
1*Skirk Prospector
1*Goblin King
1*Goblin Tinkerer
4*Lightning Bolt
3*Armageddon

sb:
1*Armageddon
4*Swords to Plowshares
4*Tormod's Crypt
3*Disenchant
3*Red Elemental Blast

As you can see I ran 29 goblins maindeck. When I needed StP i boarded Armageddon and an obsolete goblin out (King or Tinkerer, depends of the opponent's deck). So I still keep 28 goblins maindeck and have plenty of removal. 28 might be low, however I always seemed to topdeck alot via Ringleader and I don't really think that was coincidence. With that board I have 11 removal spells in my deck (4*StP, 4*Bolt and 3*Incinerator).
Those extra StP's really shine when forcing through an attacking lackey.

StP also answers the threats that Bolt doesn't, like Exalted Angel and Silver Knight. Synergy is of course a surplus, however I think the raw power of StP makes up for the lack of synergy with the deck. Plus it is probably a metagame choice, I think.

About the Landstill match-up. I played Landstill twice in that tourney and I crushed them both with Armageddon. If there is a card Landstill hates to see resolve (even with Crucible on the board) it is this one. Your opponent won't Armageddon in a Goblin deck, so you can use some random fodder as counter bait.
The only danger is that the Landstill player disenchants your Vial in response. Maindeck Armageddon is not very good in the mirror, but I expected more Landstill and Survival advantage decks.
I don't think that the white splash weakens the deck much. The splash isn't very deep and white opens some nice options.
I think both versions (white splash and mono-red with Needle) are fine. But when you go mono-red, Rishadan Port feels like a must-have.

[Evil Roopey]

First of all, there are around 10,000 things wrong with the list you just posted.

1: There are Lightning Bolts in your deck. Good God, thats horrible. Not only is it not a goblin and has bad synergy with Ringleader, its just a bad crad for this deck to run. This deck is built on card advantage. Go with it.

2: I know that you were trying to influence people to run the white splash, but there is a reason why they don't.

3: Kiki is probably one fo the best cards in this deck. There was an article on SCG all about Kiki and his power, explaining what i found out like 2 weeks ago. (Not really the Intruder Alarm part, I'm not sold on that yet.)

4. There are only 3 Incinerators and only 3 Warchiefs in this fucking deck. Were you high when you decided to cut a Warchief? ::sigh:: Grow a brain.

5. 29 GOBLINS!?!?!?!? Seriously? I run fucking 37 and still am not all that satisfied with Ringleader everytime.

6. Armegeddon seems unbelievably poor in the main. If you want to cut Goblins from the main, don't do it on a situational card.

7. You are running basic Plains, and only 3 maindeck cards that use them.

8. You have no way to fetch to basic Plains....and frankly if you did I would yell at you for it. Take them out.

9. Your silver bullet set-up is horrible. Tinkerer? Unless you are staring down a field of Landstill, I really don't see the point. Even in that case you should probably run Zo-zu. He kicks Landstill's ass.

I am sick of typing now....................I repeat: GROW A BRAIN!

[scarface]

Zo-Zu! I totally forgot that guy was a goblin! I see tons of landstill so I think I may start mainboarding one copy. One question though: When should I matron for the zo-zu as opposed to a ringleader? Obviously, the earlier in the game, the better, but what if he resolves, they plow him, and I end up in top deck mode because I didnt go with the ringleader? Should I just stick with the wastes, ports, and ringleaders in the main for dealing with landstill? If I move zo-zu to the sideboard, wouldn't I be better off replacing him with better hosers like ruination?

[Evil Roopey]

The problem I always had with Ruination over Zozu was the fact that Zozu can be tutored for and can be caught with a Ringleader. Goblin King makes him bigger and Warchief makes him cost less and gives him haste. The fact that Zozu himself actually has synergy with the deck makes him a far better choice.



I'm trying.....

[drizzt]

First of all, there are around 10,000 things wrong with the list you just posted.

1: There are Lightning Bolts in your deck. Good God, thats horrible. Not only is it not a goblin and has bad synergy with Ringleader, its just a bad crad for this deck to run. This deck is built on card advantage. Go with it.

2: I know that you were trying to influence people to run the white splash, but there is a reason why they don't.

3: Kiki is probably one fo the best cards in this deck. There was an article on SCG all about Kiki and his power, explaining what i found out like 2 weeks ago. (Not really the Intruder Alarm part, I'm not sold on that yet.)

4. There are only 3 Incinerators and only 3 Warchiefs in this fucking deck. Were you high when you decided to cut a Warchief? ::sigh:: Grow a brain.

5. 29 GOBLINS!?!?!?!? Seriously? I run fucking 37 and still am not all that satisfied with Ringleader everytime.

6. Armegeddon seems unbelievably poor in the main. If you want to cut Goblins from the main, don't do it on a situational card.

7. You are running basic Plains, and only 3 maindeck cards that use them.

8. You have no way to fetch to basic Plains....and frankly if you did I would yell at you for it. Take them out.

9. Your silver bullet set-up is horrible. Tinkerer? Unless you are staring down a field of Landstill, I really don't see the point. Even in that case you should probably run Zo-zu. He kicks Landstill's ass.

I am sick of typing now....................I repeat: GROW A BRAIN!
1) I fail to see why Bolt would be worse than say: Mogg Fanatic. Bolt is just much more flexible, can steal wins when the board gets stalled, kill bigger crits, can act as an alternate win condition,...
The only plus for Fanatic is its synergy with Ringleader, but Bolt is just the better card. I played with Fanatic at first, but they just didn't do that much for me, so I swapped them.

2) I'm not trying to influence anyone. I'm just saying that there are things that Needle doesn't answer and they are growing in popularity.

3) I never said anything about Kiki.

4) You only need one Warchief on the board. The second one is not much more than vanilla 2/2. Besides there are 4 Matrons in this deck for a reason. And how often do you lose 3 Warchiefs? Exactly, never. Besides i hate to see more than one Warchief in my first hand. A fourth Incinerator should indeed be added. I never said my decklist was perfect.

5) I'm satisfied with the approximately two cards I draw from Ringleader each time. So I don't see your point. I'd rather not add some subpar Goblins to increase my draws.

6) Armageddon is not a situational card, because the card is highly abuseable with Vial.

7+8) A W/R fetchland still doesn't exist where I come from. But you're right I might as well take the plains out.

9) Tutorable artifact removal is never wrong. In fact I've seen a lot of Vedalken Shackles lately in my meta. Zo-Zu doesn't really affect the board and will probably only get plowed or wrathed away.

Btw you are wrong when you say this deck is about card advantage. This deck is about card advantage AND tempo advantage AND synergy AND a versitality of threats. it's the combination of these four elements what makes this deck tier 1 material. You might be going more for the card advantage, while I go for the versitality of threats. I think each deckbuilder has a bit space to add some personal elements without hurting the core of the deck.

[Djinn]

1) I fail to see why Bolt would be worse than say: Mogg Fanatic
Ringleader, Lackey, Piledriver ...

4) You only need one Warchief on the board. The second one is not much more than vanilla 2/2.
Perhaps it's just me, but I like to play 4 copies of the cards I always want to draw asap

Besides i hate to see more than one Warchief in my first hand.
uh? really? ;/


7+8) A W/R fetchland still doesn't exist where I come from. But you're right I might as well take the plains out.
What about red fetchlands and plateau? :O

Just my 2 cents

[Odd Mutation]

Guys,

Give Drizzt a break! He did well with this decklist in a local tournement (35 players), ending second! He is a very good player only losing to a mirror match that took ages to finish. I know he understands the deck very well.

That said I don't agree with everything in his list, but I've lost to it more then enough to give it some respect.

I would also play 4 Warchiefs, they're amazing, deciding games right there and then.
There doesn't seem to be the need for two Plains so I'd change them to Plateaus.
The Armageddons are really good! Resolving one = end of the game, another victory for the green army.
I still believe the white splash to give the Goblin player an extra edge. Being a Landstill player, my main goal is staying alive and not think too much about the Wasteland plan here! Crucible is one of those cards that gets sideboarded out against the Gobbo's.
I don't know why Bolt is considered a bad card! 29 Goblins is more then enough, so I agree with him here. It takes care of anoying creatures and can be a finisher. I know you want to draw four Goblins everytime you get a Ringleader out but two is great as well.

Greetings,

Odd Mute.

[HBspulse]

I am sick of typing now....................I repeat: GROW A BRAIN!


Jezus, just because someone has a list that differs from the standard one, don't crucify them. It's lame.

Agreed, you should play 4x warchief, etc. And the basic plain is not really necessary. If you decide on playing bolt instead of jitte, well why not.

However, I found his armageddon in the deck a really good choice. It proved to be a 'bom' against any control based matchup or just any deck that doesn't run vial. It's basically only a dead card in the mirror. Armageddon also gives you a chance pre-sb against solidarity. (!)

I saw armageddon kill landstill players instantly. Cop:red or not.

Looking at the other posts, goblins will get tons of hate thrown at them. It is thé deck to beat for the moment.

[T is for TOOL]

Armageddon also gives you a chance pre-sb against solidarity. (!)
... The best strategy to beat Solidarity is to play first. You both have the same fundamental turn, and they have to make every single land drop. The first game odds are about 50-50. Also note that Armageddon costs 4, so if they went first, they will go off in response. Unless you did something like Prospector to speed it up a turn, in which case they can always FoW...


I saw armageddon kill landstill players instantly. Cop:red or not.
I saw Ruination and Flaring Pain instantly kill landstill with a resolved Cop:red, and they don't require a white splash...


Looking at the other posts, goblins will get tons of hate thrown at them. It is thé deck to beat for the moment.
So.. you will be playing the goblin mirror often? And your solution is... splash white for MD Armageddon??? [glare]

[midnightAce]

I'm coming from an Angel Stompy/Landstill player point of view to address some of the things.

@Warchief
Having four of means 80% of the time drawing one in your opening hand, that often produces the "Oops... RRR triple Piledriver for the win." games. This gives opposing deck fits, whether it's aggro, combo or control. However, those alpha strike moments can be ruined with a single StP, which means that you just overextended, and walked into a Wrath or Disk or Wave. Having a second Warchief reduces that chance, reduces Ringleader and Kiki's cost. That one extra colourless mana might not mean that much early on, but after a Gedden, could mean the difference between win and lose.

@Solidarity
With the inclusion of white splash, the only thing you brought in that helps against Solidarity is Geddon. Traditionally, the black splash Vial is much more suited to combat against combo, with x Duress and x Therapy, the deck rips apart Solidarity's hand while maintaining a comstant stream of threats to supplement the clock. The simple fact is that Geddon costs 4, with no Chrome and a single Prospector, it will likely to be casted on turn 4 and no earlier. That alone simply is not enough against Solidarity. (Notice most SB plans containis either 8 Blasts or a combination of Pillars and Blasts.) Against control, Ruination is much better since it doesn't hurt your own mana base that much. (Fetch for basics.)


6) Armageddon is not a situational card, because the card is highly abuseable with Vial.

Unfortunately, that IS the defination of a situational card. It's only castable after you established board control and is in a winning position. Otherwise, if you cast it early, most decks can recover fairly quickly. Chances are, without Vial, you wouldn't be inclined to cast Geddon.

[troopatroop]

Having four of means 80% of the time drawing one in your opening hand, that often produces the "Oops... RRR triple Piledriver for the win." games.

uhhh... That math has been done before...

Having 4 of something in a deck ensures that you (opening) will draw one 45% of the time, not 80%.

I also conquer that the white splash is no longer needed. Ruination does the same thing to landstill as Geddon, and doesn't require weakening the manabase. Your results are moot, as your decklist obviously is not optimal Drizzt. Arguing that Lightning Bolt is better than Fanatic in this deck? Seriously...

[HBspulse]

Looking at the other posts, goblins will get tons of hate thrown at them. It is thé deck to beat for the moment.
So.. you will be playing the goblin mirror often? And your solution is... splash white for MD Armageddon??? [glare]
you're missing the point. I just mentioned you WILL face lots more goblin hate by OTHER decks, like pyroclasms, moats, reverence, humility, cop:red, protection from red creatures, pariah, earthquake, beb,... I'm not saying armageddon is good in the mirror, please. I'm not even advocating the card, i'm just defending drizzt choice for armageddon instead of jitte in a landstill meta.
Don't do misuse my words please, i did not even mention the mirror.

As for the white splash, if you want to roll over against moats, reverence, hey even scepter-chant decks (suppose you don't find your needle or they play disenchant). Well don't splash or find other solutions. Start playing extra anarchy's and hope you find it and have enough mana before they have a counter ready.

I'm just saying there will be non-activated (enchantment) hate cards from now one, that are less easy to solve then playing needle. The white splash helps there. As does it help by playing e.g. swords and disenchant against WW decks. If you're meta doesn't have WW decks, Landstills or scepter chant decks, don't splash at all. Otherwise splash or play multiple anarchy's. Your choice.

I like zo-zu by the way ;)

[T is for TOOL]

I didn't miss the point, you said that Goblins is thé deck to beat right now. That indicates that the deck is widely played, which it is. That means it's logical to assume that you are more likely to play against the mirror. More to the point, that still doesn't defend Armageddon because Ruination is just as good and does not require a white splash.

As for the white splash, I have never seen Moat in a SB (which does nothing against burn), or Reverence (answered by Goblin King/Pyromancer, and it is suboptimal), and Scepter-Chant decks aren't exactly a metagame concern (or tier 1)...

@troopatroop That only works if your deck is 52 cards :p I think you were looking for 40%.

[HBspulse]

[glare] well ok, let's not turn this white-splash <> mono-red thing into a flame war. It's getting tiring.

And let's shut up about armageddon, like I said it's a good weapon against landstill (which plays lot's of basics, so armageddon != ruination), but I don't play it either. It's not armageddon that justifies a white splash...

Just one point :

If you expect lists like this 1st place deck(
http://www.o-gaming.com/tourney....150514& (http://www.o-gaming.com/tourneys/index.php?fuseaction=viewdecks&authnumber=KpBo08150514&) ), I wouldn't want to miss instant-speed 2 mana enchantment destroyer post-sb. If you don't fear or expect 2WW white enchantments, well don't then. Phew.

I also opted for the needle solution in my last tournament, but I just want to claim that a humility-moat-reverence-engineered plague sb, will show up more and more frequent due to recent goblin success, so the white splash helps there. You agree?

I agree with you having a good goblin mirror plan will also be necessary, sure thing.

[mackaber]

Everyone who is so dearly worried about the Landstill-Matchup should test your standard U/W landstill dec against a goblin build running 15 red mana sources 4 Wastelands and 3 ports 4 vials and 32-24 goblins or 2 jittes. 20 games later you will surely be convinced that you do NOT need those stinking armagedons MD or SB. If the gobln player has grown a brain, the landstill dec will never resolve Wrath(or Moat/Reverence/humility for that matter) before turn 6 wich is usually too late!

Test it and get over the fact that Landstill is not better than Goblins! It's a myth!

[mulder]

I played against the deck in the tournament, and I can only say that Armageddon lost me the match (I was playing Landstill), so it can't be all that bad. Destroying all lands while you still have the opportunity to play Goblins for free doesn't seem all that bad to me. Destroying all lands while you have board advantage is also not too bad I'd think. Have you even tried testing it? I seriously doubt so, so until then I suggest you refrain from making such bold statements.

The deck ended up going 5-1-0, drawing against another Goblin Vial deck (yes, I couldn't believe it either, a draw between two ultra aggressive decks). Results speak for themselves, I always say.

[Someone]

Goblins is one of my favorite decks. However, since my area is mainly t2 oriented, I dont get to play it in real life very much. I test as much as I can online, however, and I have currently decided to run with:

//NAME: Goblins
2 Badlands
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
11 Mountain
4 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Æther Vial
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Gempalm Incinerator
SB: 3 Patriarch's Bidding
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 2 Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 Duress

I think this deck should do decently, however, I can not be totally sure. Please take a look, and see what you think. if you need a card explanation just ask.

[dsg123456789]

Recently, I have been hearing advocates of cutting Kiki and Pyromancer, and adding in 4x Mogg Flunkies. Obviously, this takes the deck into a more aggressive, less toolboxish/controlling approach. What is your opinion on this? I have enjoyed the flexibiliy of my wrath/alpha-striker and the ridiculousness that ensues when Kiki hits the board. Apparently, the Flunkies are there to shore up your Landstill matchup, by giving you more goblins that win against factories and Conclaves. Ahh, how I do love discussion pieces.

[mackaber]

@mulder: a) I don't have to test geddon's I've played with them for the last 9 years, I know it's a great card, the point I was trying to make is that adding a few Ports(that don't require goblin slots) help push the Landstill matchup way past 50% pre board and subsequently make your armageddon argument obsolete. Plateus are soooooo unbelievably bad against any dec running wastelands(MIRRORMATCH) that I'm not even going to consider splashing any more!
b)'yes, I couldn't believe it either, a draw between two ultra aggressive decks'--> Ever since the printing of cursed scroll red mirror matches tend to be attrition wars! Are you that noob?

@dsg: Flunkies were tested for quite some time and I guess most people dismissed them. They are the next best 2-drop and they really are quite a beating but somehow they just didn't cut it. They gave the dec more consistent turn 4 kills but the loss of flexibility is immense. They are quite nice in the mirror match though. Once again I think port does a better job at handling factories and giving you something to do for 2 mana. If people start running more engineered plagues Flunkies should be a solid choice again!

[frogboy]

The only good goblin two-drop is Sparksmith. Piledriver is 'not bad' in the sense that he kills your opponent, but he's only really good in a couple matchups. Flunkies is bad in the mirror. If you disagree, you're playing the mirror wrong. He's not really that great against Landstill since he makes their one for ones quasi two for ones. He's good in combo matches, sure, but you should be considering mulliganing non-Lackey non-Piledriver hands anyway, and at that point you don't play Flunkies until like turn five, so he's irrelevant most of the time. King is like 38479347389473947932479823x better against Engineered Plague, by the way.

Having like three nonbasics in the mirror is largely not a big deal. For Wasteland to cripple you, you need to be stupid enough to play your nonbasic early, or stupid enough to keep low-land hands that don't have Aether Vial. You play your dual as land #3 or 4 and drop a Warchief or Matron or Ringleader or some damn thing and if your opponent wants to waste time trading land drops when you have tempo that's a good deal for you.

Theoretically, the problem I see with Geddon is that it costs four and doesn't put pressure on your opponent. Yeah okay if you have a significant board position they're probably not winning, but at that point you're only denying them like two draw steps to find an out. It's dead while you're playing men, and it's dead when you play men and they murder your entire squad. I guess it's worth testing as like a two-of, but cutting Warchief for it can't be right, especially when you have a singleton Skirk Prospector. Geddon, five drops, and twenty land also earns a wtf.

I'm also going to slap the next person who thinks winning an FNM means they or their deck is good. It might be, sure, but 99% of people are awful until you get up to like PTQ-level events, where it's more like 85%. Your results are only relevant if others duplicate them in testing or large tournaments.

[LinkXwing]

I'm also going to slap the next person who thinks winning an FNM means they or their deck is good. It might be, sure, but 99% of people are awful until you get up to like PTQ-level events, where it's more like 85%. Your results are only relevant if others duplicate them in testing or large tournaments.
Well, I guess that leaves you out Sir FrogX0r. T8ing a Grand Prix with Goblins still doesn't give you credibility. Grand Prix does not = PTQ.

[dsg123456789]

Rishadan Port makes landstill cry. It makes what used to be a good matchup for Landstill into a good matchup for you. 'Nuff said, you should run this land. Maindecking Armageddon is a poor choice, because it only helps you if you are currently winning and it is only situationally useful. If living death, a wrath and late-game powerhouse against many decks has never made the cut, that should be a hint. Also, a deck that wants to run on 21-23 lands and have 4 lands on turn 4 should not run more than its 8 nonbasics. Rather than debating credibility, lets just smash each others' ideas, rather than each others' tech-analysis skills.

[frogboy]

22 mana sources is bare minimum. 23 is better. Having four colored nonbasics is fine.

[mackaber]

@frogboy: The way I play the mirror match, the board is often cluttered with a lot of 1/1 s and 2/2s while matrons go fetching ringleaders or gempalms to eliminate relevant threats(sharpshooter, smith, kiki...). In a situation like this having a 3/3 dude or multiples can be quite annoying for your opponent, since his 2/2s can no longer trade for your 2/2s but instead should start double blocking. And thanks for enlightening me that king is good against plague.

The Problem with plateaus is that otherwise fine draws become a liability for example double ringleader warchief incinerator wasteland 2 mountains is a nice hand for the mirror, replace that mountain with plateau and I would definitly cross my fingers that he has no wasteland since it could KO you on the spot! Double or even triple red is quite important in the mirror if you don't have the vial so I really don't want to take that wasteland hit!

[Rivs]

Goblin King
Other Goblins get +1/+1 and have mountainwalk. (They're unblockable as long as defending player controls a Mountain.)

How does goblin king improve the mirror match when it gives ALL goblins +1+1? It sure looks like an alpha strike enabler and nothing more, since you are going to get retaliated next turn if you don't win. Kinda like a weaker Pyromancer that leaves your opponent with a chance to fight back.

[Ewokslayer]

Goblin King allows for a lethal alpha strike without having to have numerical superiority over your opponent. If you and your opponent both have 5 goblins out and you drop the King, you swing for a ton and kill him assuming that there is a piledriver in the mix. Under the same situation in you drop a Pyromancer and this time assuming one of your Goblins is a warchief, you don't kill the opponent you deal about 4-5 damage and lose your team. Granted they lose their team but your team did contain an extra card (the Pyromancer) and they can now rebuild first.

[Rivs]

Yeah, that was the alternative I assumed King opened up. My mirror matches so far haven't been very creature intensive, most goblin decks are chock full of removal nowadays, and there is rarely enough stuff on the board to produce a scenario like you describe.
If i had played pyromancer there with 5 gobs in play per side, i would have swung for 5, and reset the board, so pyromancer is kind of like a goblin grenade, which is fine by me. Neither of those plays offers a path to victory against a deck with 4 gempalms, shooter, scg and fanatic, and maybe sparksmith. My take on it would be to side in additional pyromancers, so you can wrath often, maybe at your opponent's eot. To me, it is the single goblin that offers the widest use in the mirror.

I honestly can't see any other goblin card that can thorughly split open the mirror.

Nice avatar btw =)

[troopatroop]

Jitte breaks the mirror, and I think that's why it's showing up alot more often. If you play jitte, you win the mirror. If you both play jitte then...well...play smart. Would some Sparksmiths help the mirror? Thats something I've been wondering for awhile.

[midnightAce]

I think while Sparks can pick off opposing key goblins and can come down on turn 2 as opposed to Sharpshooter's turn 3, I still think 4 Sharpshooter can break the mirror better than Spark, simply because the board is often choke full of Goblins, the price of picking off a Piledriver with a Sparksmith can range from 4-6 damage regularly, especially when the two decks are both stalling each other. The life loss is too big to justify the Sparksmith. Sharpshooter, on the other hand, can also allow for some retarded combat math if they start blocking your swings, they can shoot players as well as creatures, and they combo savagely with Seige-gang, which is definately a plus.

[pater]

Sparksmith + Sharpshooter can clear a table pretty quickly. Definitely recommended for a mirror.

And yes, Jitte does give you a hyoojah advantage.

[Zilla]

It should be noted that Jitte is strong not only in the mirror, but it improves the Burn matchup by adding a lifegain element, and is also strong against any other decks with Jitte (Fish, Angel Stompy, etc.) Jitte is very very bad for Vial Goblins when it's on the opposite side of the table. By running some of its own, they're Disenchants for opposing Jittes at the very worst.

[kirdape3]

Alright, time to call out a complete retard.


Quote (frogboy @ Aug. 24 2005,2:14)
I'm also going to slap the next person who thinks winning an FNM means they or their deck is good. It might be, sure, but 99% of people are awful until you get up to like PTQ-level events, where it's more like 85%. Your results are only relevant if others duplicate them in testing or large tournaments.

Well, I guess that leaves you out Sir FrogX0r. T8ing a Grand Prix with Goblins still doesn't give you credibility. Grand Prix does not = PTQ.

So Bas Postema GP: Eindhoven Top 8 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gpeind05/welcome#27), Olivier Ruel PT: Columbus Top 8 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/ptcol05/t8decks), also Top 16 Eindhoven, Dennis Yuliadinata GP: Singapore Top 8 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gpsing05/welcome#1), Max McCall and John Ripley GP: Seattle Top 8 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gpseat05/welcome#2) JUST THIS SEASON are complete donkeys who can't play Magic, right? Nevermind that Eindhoven was an ORDER OF MAGNITUDE larger than most PTQs, or that Columbus was a Pro Tour.

Don't speak ever again, as it made me even more stupid for reading it.

Anyhow.

Sparksmith is surprisingly good in the mirror, but it also kills you so quickly that you can only use it a couple of times. Jitte and FTK both suffer from the problem of getting dropped on the bottom when you run your Ringleader to reload. Careful play will allow you to set up some pretty ridiculous plays from a position of parity, but the easiest way to dominate the mirror is with Sharpshooter, extra Siege-Gang Commanders, and heavy hitters like Clickslither.

[Rivs]

@kirdape:
If he meant grand prix I agree completely with your call. When i read it I assumes he meant grand prix trials, which may or may not be a fact, i haven't ever been to either.
I haven't ever been at a GPT, so I'll take this chance to ask if they are really that much lower level than PTQs.

Also, what does the goblin deck want to cut for all its sideboard hate against the mirror?

I see many sideboard options but it may be worthwhile to point out the weakest cards in the matchup. I'll go ahead and call piledriver as a rather weak card, since it constantly gets gempalmed/fanaticced/whatever or is blocked and trades.
This may be a better avenue of thinking over the mirror, pick off the weak cards and then see what they can be replaced with, taking our curve into account when doing so, for example, i saw 4sharpshooters mentioned, that would be something fierce to bring in, but wouldn't it kind of overload our curve at the 3cc slot, or rather is it offset by our very own vials.

[Zilla]

Chill, Kird. Link and frgoboy are friends IRL. He was just giving him a hard time.

[frogboy]

Dude. LinkXwing was being sarcastic about my credibility. I was getting pissed at people who were all "omg I smashed a bunch of scrubs I r00l at magic."

GPTs are exponentially easier events than PTQs are. Grand Prixs themselves are basically very large PTQs, except that instead of 6-1-1 making top eight, you go into Day Two and play people who are actually good.

Saying nonGoblin cards are bad because of Ringleader is kind of facetious, because while it's true that it sucks to flop non-Goblins, if the card is powerful enough that when you play it you're favored to win the game, it's probably worth running. I don't think FTK is that good, though.

[troopatroop]

FTK isn't that great, Clickslither on the other hand seems really good for the mirror. The 3/3 Body is bigger than any other goblins your opponent has, and can go lethal if you're at a standstill on the ground. It sortov puts you in control of the mirror when it hits play. Idk, what does everybody think of that for some sb tech

[Rogue]

My problem with clickslither is that it doesn't seem that much better than siege or sharpshooter. It has the advantage of being good right away if you have other goblins, but then so does goblin king. Clickslither also can't be fetched, which isn't to say that makes it unrunnable, but rather that 2 cards of comperable cost that are fetchable are at least probably better. Siege gang will kill 2 of their guys, and goblin king is just as good, if not better, provided you have a warchief in play (and since clickslither and king both rely on having goblins in play in the first place, it's same to assume that a warchief may be among them).
Jitte, on the other hand, requires nothing but a body, is basically the same cost but deferrable over multiple turns, and not a creature and thus harder to kill. It gets my vote.

[Artowis]

Jitte breaks the mirror, and I think that's why it's showing up alot more often. If you play jitte, you win the mirror. If you both play jitte then...well...play smart. Would some Sparksmiths help the mirror? Thats something I've been wondering for awhile.
You would win the mirror already if you knew how to play it. Jitte or no. There is a clear plan for the mirror match and if you do it and don't fuck up your combat math, you'll be fine.

[troopatroop]

That's rediculous Artowis. Assuming that you're going to be the only one in the mirror who knows that the hell to do is retarded. Each player has the same game plan, therefor one must look for other superior routes to victory in the mirror. Jitte helps. Are you arguing that Jitte isn't good in the mirror?

[HBspulse]

As for the white splash, I have never seen Moat in a SB (which does nothing against burn), or Reverence (answered by Goblin King/Pyromancer, and it is suboptimal), and Scepter-Chant decks aren't exactly a metagame concern (or tier 1)...
:;): I guess i gave them an idea

Landstill is considering both moat and reverence. See the landstill tread.

Another justification for playing a splash, white for disenchant, green for naturalize or just the black splash for pro-active disruption.

However the sb gets difficult here. You have to gamble here a bit. The best choice to sb against landstill without these 2WW enchantment hosers is :
+3/4 pithing needle +3 red elemental blast (-jitte, -sharpshooter, -1 gempalm, -1 king ...)
However, you will lose against a moat or reverence or humility.

You can otherwise sb in : +3/4 disenchant +3 reb
It's worse than playing needle, but you can get around the 2WW game locker.

It depends what will get popular in landstill : the 2WW enchantments or still the circles, shackles, whatever (all pithing needle-able)

ps : damnit it, it's difficult having a fair discussion, posting some insights after tournament experience with the deck and future metagame predictions...and not getting flamed at, what's wrong with some of you people, please stop it if you don't have real experience with the deck.

[Rivs]

If the concern is the post board hate landstill brings in, and it all comes in the form of white enchantments, I fail to see whyanarchy is not an answer, seeing as it also is useful against AngelStompy and such. If disenchants are going to be targeting white enchantments and we are also bring in Reb, why not sub the disenchants for anarchies and have reb as a fallback plan for chill?

Of course, there is still vedalken shackels to worry about, but that is about all that is uncovered by a sideboard plan like that, and its not like REB, Anarchy and Pithing needle are useless out of this match, so they could make for a nice board against landstill.

It seems that a combination of those three should cover most landstill sideboards without being useless in other matchups, it's not like there is no random things to name with needle. Anarchy seems narrow, but if you look at the numbers WW is putting up, and how Mountains keep filling the format, it seems a smart move to have some answer to them in the board. As for REB, i have been boarding it regularly, and it isn't all flashy and all, but it does its job, not that there is no blue in the format that might bring chill in and lock us up.

[mackaber]

I tested 15 games of the goblin mirror match a few days back. My dec contained jitte his didn't. Every game I cast the jitte I lost, since it never aquired any counters. One of those games would have been lost anyway but my opponent could always do one of the following things to offset my jitte plan: a) have sharpshooter in play and shoot his blockers b) incinerate my equiped man and steal my turn c) block wih fanatic or prospector and sac before damage. The loss of tempo through the turn spent casting and equiping was vital in all my matches.

In addition to four lost games with jitte in play I hit jitte with ringleader 3 times wich was very annoying, I had the impression that the additional flexibility provided by more tutor targets would help me more in most situations. So what do all the jitte lovers have to say in it's defense?

Clickslitter was great in Block and Standard Goblin decs and definetly owned the mirror match, those goblin decs were running 4 siege gangs though... I still don't like adding a non Goblin dude to side in since it would take up 3-4 SB slots.

[Artowis]

That's rediculous Artowis. Assuming that you're going to be the only one in the mirror who knows that the hell to do is retarded. Each player has the same game plan, therefor one must look for other superior routes to victory in the mirror. Jitte helps. Are you arguing that Jitte isn't good in the mirror?
The fact is most people DON'T know what to do in a Goblin mirror. Max already explained what -should- be happening.

No shit Jitte is good in the mirror -if- you draw it and -if- it gets active. Which is hardly guaranteed considering you shouldn't be having large goblin standoffs in the first place. Jitte is great in every aggro match, if it gets active.

Honestly? I'd much rather have an extra Sharpshooter, Sparksmith or max out Incinerators if you aren't running all 4. They all get active for less mana and less tempo loss than Jitte.

[cartman34]

Has anyone considered Tangle Wire?I run 3 in my build and they where usefull in almost every machtup espacially against Vials Goblins hard Machtups(Landstill,RGSA etc..).Combined with Port and Wasteland(which I both run) it is also good against fast combo Decks.


In the Goblin Mirror I think that Jitte is not that great because of the reason artowis mentioned.Goblin King is also a bad card imo because its not a Goblin(no interaction with Lackey,Matron and Ringleader) so you need to run more of them if you want to draw any and then Ringleader gets worse.Pyromancer isn´t a bomb against the Mirror its just an option which sometimes is helpfull.
I would run a full set of Sharpshooters and multiple SGC if I would like to win the Mirror.

[midnightAce]

King is now a Goblin, refer to 9th update.

[rhino408]

I'm fairly new to legacy as far as deck construction goes. I want to build a fairly regular version of mono red vial goblins for legacy. So far I have these:

4xGoblin Warchief
4xGoblin Piledriver
4xMogg Fanatic
4xGoblin Lackey
4xGoblin Ringleader
1xGoblin Sharpshooter
1xKiki-Jiki Mirror Breaker
1xSiege-Gang Commander
1xGoblin Pyromancer
3-4xGempalm Incinerator

4xAEther Vial
2xUmezawa's Jitte

4xWasteland
3xRishidan Port
Mountains/Bloodstained Mire/Wooded Foothills

SB:
4xPyrostatic Pillar
4xRed Elemental Blast
4xPithing Needle
3xAnarchy

The MD has some holes in the creature slot. I need major help with what kinda mana base. Any help is appreciated since you all know more than me.

Thanks,
Rhino408

[calosso]

The build is good but the ports are not needed in the deck in my opinon.

[dsg123456789]

Ports are most definitely very important in the deck, since they let you beat landstill by tapping down Factories and denying them WW, saving you from Wrath of God/Vengeance. I would run 23 lands, with 6 fetches and 4 ports/wastelands. You have forgotton Goblin Matron, and important creature for the deck. Lastly, I would check an earlier/the first list for a starting point.

Jitte is a very good card, however, I think that lightning bolt/flunkies/removal deserve testing in that spot, since clearing a blocker for a 1st turn lackey to hit is some good, and often the tempo loss from Jitte prevents me from casting it.

[The Gifted One]

I have some topics for a discussion:

I am not sure about Umezawa's Jitte.
Vs. control they can react on activation (Swords, Lightning Bolt, Fire/Ice) and gain huge tempo advantage.
Vs. aggro you should win anyway :p .
Vs. combo (read: Solidarity) the 4 mana you need to cast and equip Jitte are too expensive. The 2 counters generated from the equipped creature dealing damage are only useful on your next turn.
My tendency is to remove Jitte from the deck.

What is your opinion on the amount of lands to play and which lands to play?
No discussion needed on playing Wastelands.
Rishadan Ports give you the edge in the Landstill matchup (read dsg123456789's post) and strengthen the mana denial part of your deck.
Is it useful to play Fetchlands in a Mono-R-Goblin deck, especially when you are already playing 4 Wastelands and 4 Rishadan Ports?
What is the number of Lands to play?
I'm planning on playing 4 Wastelands, 4 Rishadan Ports and 14 Mountains.

[Zilla]

I am not sure about Umezawa's Jitte.
Vs. control they can react on activation (Swords, Lightning Bolt, Fire/Ice) and gain huge tempo advantage.
That's not entirely accurate. It's tempo advantage, but not huge tempo advantage. It's 2 mana in a deck that has tons of ways to cheat casting costs. It tends to have open mana to spare, so the tempo issue is somewhat moot. In any case, we can agree it's not great against control, so it gets sided out in these matchups. As a 2-of it's not harming your consistency game 1 against control in any sginifcant way.


Vs. aggro you should win anyway :p .
Not true. Burn, for example, can beat you fairly consistently if they're maindecking Flamebreak or other mass removal. Burn loses to lifegain, however, and that's something that Jitte can provide. It's very strong in this matchup, and it's becoming more prevalent.


Vs. combo (read: Solidarity) the 4 mana you need to cast and equip Jitte are too expensive. The 2 counters generated from the equipped creature dealing damage are only useful on your next turn.
Again, the deck often has these lands open; they might as well be getting used to cast something, since you'll be connecting with Lackey and resolving Vial without a hitch against most combo. Again, the Jitte will come out for your dedicated combo hate, but as a 2-of it's not harming consistency.

A point which you didn't address, and it should be, because it's probably the number one reason to consider running Jitte: Jitte itself kicks Goblins in the junk when it's on the opposite side of the table. Lots of random aggro is packing Jitte. Hence, Goblins can theoretically lose to random aggo. By packing Jittes of your own, you mitigate this problem, by using Jitte as a virtual Disenchant.

As an example, I was testing a WW/u build against Vial Goblins quite a bit. I was consistently winning my games (something like 8 out of 10), often because of Jitte. My opponent added 2 Jittes to his Goblins deck, and we tested again. He won the majority of our games, because he often nullified the power of my Jittes with his own. This is worth consideration in a format where Jitte is likely to be very prevalent.


What is your opinion on the amount of lands to play and which lands to play? I'm planning on playing 4 Wastelands, 4 Rishadan Ports and 14 Mountains.
I run 4 Waste, 3 Port, 15 Mountain, no Prospectors. You really want more than 14 red sources in order to ramp to RR by turn 3 for Warchief. 15 seems to work well in this regard.

[dsg123456789]

One shouldn't forget the 4-8 fetchlands, because those give you deck thinning that can make a difference in the mid-late game by changing the quality of your draws and your ringleaders. Also, its nice to be able to shuffle noncreatures off of the bottom if you need to draw more, after you have used a few ringleaders.

[mackaber]

I think 9 mountain 6 fetch 4 wasteland 3 port is your best bet! If you wan't to play it safe adding one port would be okay. Never go below 15 red though, it worked in extended but those decs had 4 prospectors.

[Zilla]

The deckthinning argument has been had time and time again. Mathematically, the thinning provided by 6-8 fetches is almost completely irrellevant. In fact, the shuffling effect they provide actually offsets what thinning they might provide, because your Ringleaders are putting non-goblins on the bottom of the deck, where they won't clutter your following Ringleader draws.

In any case, the bottom line is that the extremely miniscule deckthinning provded by fetchlands is offset by vulnerability to Stifle, and the fact that they are dealing you damage. There are other aggro decks in the format that can race you (Burn, for example), and in those matchups, fetchlands are a distinct liability.

The only time the deck should be running fetches is if it's splashing.

[The Gifted One]

First of all: Thank you for your quick answers!

Back to topic:
Umezawa's Jitte
I brought this topic up, because in my testing I always felt like Jitte was a win more card. In about 100 games there was 1 situation where Jitte won me the game: In a Goblin mirror, I was able to activate and attack through all those Gempalm Incinerators, Mogg Fanatics and Goblin Sharpshooters to finallly get the Jitte active.
On the other side I can only remember 1 situaation where an opposing Jitte cost me the game (vs. random Aggro).


As an example, I was testing a WW/u build against Vial Goblins quite a bit. I was consistently winning my games (something like 8 out of 10), often because of Jitte. My opponent added 2 Jittes to his Goblins deck, and we tested again. He won the majority of our games, because he often nullified the power of my Jittes with his own. This is worth consideration in a format where Jitte is likely to be very prevalent.
Most of my games vs. WW versions (post-SB) came down to: Anarchy or no. You simply have no other reliable way to get rid of the pro-red creatures.
When they wield any sort of equipment (SoFI, SoLS, Jitte, MoM) you're chances of winning decline with every attack.


Burn loses to lifegain, however, and that's something that Jitte can provide. It's very strong in this matchup, and it's becoming more prevalent.
Burn loses to life gain, of course! But to gain life from Jitte, you have to get it active through all those Flamebreaks and instant direct damage! By instantly destroying the equipped creature, the burn player can trade 1 for 1 and steal some tempo!

Summary:
My testing showed that Umezawa's Jitte only is useful in about 5-10% of the situations I drew it. Being tight on MD slots, I am thinking about removing Jitte from the deck.
I want to know, what other Vial Goblins-players think about Jitte, and what their experiences with Jitte are!

Land count

The only time the deck should be running fetches is if it's splashing.
I'm of this opinion, too.

22 Lands seem the to be the way to go.

I'm not sure about 15/14 Mountains and 3/4 Rishadan ports. I guess, I'll have to do some testing ...

[troopatroop]

Burn loses to lifegain, however, and that's something that Jitte can provide. It's very strong in this matchup, and it's becoming more prevalent.
Burn loses to life gain, of course! But to gain life from Jitte, you have to get it active through all those Flamebreaks and instant direct damage! By instantly destroying the equipped creature, the burn player can trade 1 for 1 and steal some tempo!
First of all, That's a good thing. If the burn player is going 1 for 1 on all of your creatures, you're winning that game. Thats burn that would've been thrown at your head, therefor you're gaining life anyways. And again, he's not really stealing any tempo, as you're prolly going to play another creature that turn anyways. It seems that your classification of tempo is a bit skewed

[mackaber]

I have removed jitte as well for exactly the same reasons. If burn is a major metagame concern I think I'd play test them some more.

[colsmack]

As far as sideboarding goes, what do most of you run, and how do you sideboard?

[danyul]

I run the RW version because I'm a little too attached to StP...and because I'm a stupid noobface. Anyway, here's my SB.

4 REB
4 Disenchant
4 $tP
3 Armaggedon

Pretty standard for RW builds I think. I dont see much combo around here so Pillars/Sirroco weren't necessary. The Geddons used to be Sulfuric Vortexes but I found that I never boarded them in. I would probably make the deck MonoRed if I had the Needles but right now I'm pretty happy with the RW build I have. This SB is probably too dependant on White but I almost always board in $tP and found that I wanted a to drop a Geddon against control decks because at the very least they are a must-counter. Anywho, that's my SB. I realize that it isn't the best but it works great for my meta.

[scarface]

Here' s my board:

3 ruination
3 pithing needle
3 ensnaring bridge
2 anarchy
2 zo-zu the punisher
2 tormod's crypt

I know it's a little unconventional with the inclusion of the bridges, but they have saved my life surprisingly often, considering decks like reanimator and sneak attack are actually played at my local tourney. I don't run pyrostatics because solidarity is nonexistent in my meta, and I've found that not enough people are boarding chills to warrant adding REB's. If you want a less meta-specific sideboard, just switch the bridges with pillars and drop some of the landstill hate for reb's.

[rhino408]

Thanks for all the reply. Especially from Godzilla because he's famous for creating stuff and he knows his stuff! Enough with my brown-nosing.

This is the list I've been told to play:

4xGoblin Lackey
4xMogg Fanatic
4xGoblin Piledriver
4xGoblin Warchief
4xGoblin Matron
3xGempalm Incinerator
1xGoblin Sharpshooter
1xGoblin King
4xGoblin Ringleader
1xKiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1xGoblin Pyromancer

4xAEther Vial
2xUmezawa's Jitte

15xMountain
4xWasteland
3xRishadan Port

SB:
2xPyroblast
2xRed Elemental Blast
4xPyrostatic Pillar
3xPithing Needle
3xAnarchy
1xGoblin Sharpshooter

I've heard from people other than Godzilla that the amount of thinning fetches do are irrelevant even though they could make Ringleader better because it can also make it worse.

Rishadan Port is versus Landstill mainly, but they are good in general.

Umezawa's Jitte makes every threat an even bigger one. Tempo loss will happen with all equipment requiring an activation cost of more than 0 so you can't really tell anyone to not play Sword of Fire and Ice in WW because of Artifact destruction or spot removal.

4xGoblin Ringleader

[Carlos El Salvador]

I'd like to chime in two seconds about the Jitte argument.

It wins the mirror match. Plain and simple. If Vial Gobs is prevalent in your metagame, it is your duty as a smart magic player to make sure you have the tech, and while goblin King is fine for the alpha strike, Jitte makes sure your oppoenet can not get any of his threatning creatures to stay along for long. Yes, it is taxing on your mana, but if you expect the mirror or WW (The other BIG reason to play Jitte) it's your best friend. Jitte's counters are colorless, therefore being able to kill everything outside of exalted angel. Almost all the creatures, sans silver knight, will be two for ones then.

[scarface]

Is it really necessary to run pyromancer anymore, since goblin king has found its way into the deck? I know the alpha strike via pyromancer is much larger than that of the king, but I think only one is necessary in the main deck, and the king is never dead in your hand. Plus, cutting the pyromancer would allow you to run four gempalms, which I think is a must.

[Carlos El Salvador]

You do know my post was more concerining Jitte, but yeah, King is good if you can kill them THAT Turn without fault. Otherwise Goblin king is as much of a liability. Plus if you get your king rosted via Gempalm there could be problems there. Anyhow, yeah, Jitte is a house in the mirror. That is all I wanted to say.

[Ewokslayer]

@ rhino
That list is only 59 cards.
I agree with scarface that the Pryomancer is unnecessary and suggest you go
-1 Pyromancer
+1 Gempalm
+1 SCG
Siege Gang is a great card to drop to lackey, nets you card advantage, gives the deck some reach, and lets you race COP more effectively.

[scarface]

Maybe there's another goblin we're not thinking about that can be used in the pyromancer slot. I originally was trying goblin wizard but I wasn't really satisfied with the results (though it is awesome against white weenie). Any suggestions?

[calosso]

Goblin Tinkereer that card is busted :)

[dsg123456789]

The pyromancer is not only for alpha strikes. Goblin king is usually just a minor pump (3-4 damage) and it is not usually swinging into mountains, where the pyromancer is a huge pump (9-15 damage) and it doesn't matter what it is swinging into--it is going to leave a gaping hole. More importantly for the pyromancer is that it is a wrath-of-god in the mirror. Tutorable wrath to punish them for overcommiting leads to an easy win for you, by playing out the hand you preserved in anticipation of your game-breaker.

[rhino408]

Yeah I was typing and I guess I forgot the Siege-Gang Commander. I still want to have the Pyromancer in the deck for the alpha-strike(or obvious strike) and sometimes it just wraths the mirror which is still decent if you're going to die.

Goblins that could be considered is Zo-Zu, the Punisher which is good versus the random decks that need to play tons of lands to win.

Jitte is good in Goblins and other creature heavy decks despite the tempo loss because it can swing the game with the 4 life you can gain or the destruction of a Piledriver for the mirror.

[scarface]

I can see mainboarding the pyromancer if you run prospectors or some other way to sac it before the end of the turn, but in most cases I would just move it to the sideboard for the mirror and decks that don't put up blockers. Zo-zu is strong against any deck, and it complements the ports and wastelands, so maybe running one or two copies in the MB wouldn't be a bad idea.

[Zilla]

@ Carlos:

The Jitte is actually too slow to be that effective in the mirror. By the time you have it active, it's often too late to matter. Jitte is very good against other decks running Jitte, and against Burn, but in the mirror, multiple Sharpshooters is the more effective way to win.

[frogboy]

You don't play Pyromancer in multiples for the fast kill; you play Pyromancer in multiples because it's absurd to be able to Vial out a tutor and then drop a Wrath. It, Incinerator, and Sharpshooter are what I tutor for a lot of the time in the mirror.

You play it as a one of maindeck because of the mirror and because oddly enough Berserking your entire team is randomly good occasionally.

There was a guy at GP Boston (Extended GP in the middle of last season) who ran something like ten one drops and 4 Pyromancers and went for the quick kill every game. He 8-0'd Day One and finished in the top sixteen. I dunno if that's as good in a format where 4 maindeck Wrath of God is the norm in white control decks and Swords to Plowshares exists, but it is a thought.

Zo-Zu isn't very good unless you play four of him, because if you tutor him up he's not hitting until he's largely irrelevant. As to how good he'd actually be, not sure. What would you cut for him?

You usually board out Incinerators, SCG, Kiki, Fanatic, Ringleaders depending on the matchup. It depends on your maindeck and your sideboard and the matchup.

[calosso]

I don´t agree with you on the ringleaders, I believe they are to good of a card to side out. Anyway what would you side them out against maybe solidarity.

[frogboy]

You board out Ringleaders in matchups where they're slow or you bring in enough cards to the point where they're not very good. That's basically combo matchups.

[TeenieBopper]

You board out Ringleaders in matchups where they're slow or you bring in enough cards to the point where they're not very good. That's basically combo matchups.
Agreed. If I'm bringing in more than three or four cards, chances are, one or two of the cards I'm bringing out is Goblin Ringleader, unless it's against landstill where I'll need the card advantage.

[colsmack]

What about Patriarch's Bidding in the sideboard with a black splash to combat WoG and Vengeance?

This would also allow Cabal Therapy to be played.

Is Chrome Mox still a viable consideration in this deck, or is it just not necessary?

I'm sure all of you saw that the winner at Worlds ran Lightning Bolt, is this something that could be considered, or is it just negative synergy with the rest of the deck? It seems lke it would improve the mirror, acting as additional Incinerator/Sharpshooters for removal. It could also kill blockers and manlands...

[frogboy]

I'd rather have the 23rd land, a maindeck Pyromancer, another Gempalm and more Sharpshooters.

[Gerry Thompson]

Back in May, I won a Legacy tournament with Goblins, and people started copying it almost immediately, right down to the 2 Mogg Flunkies.

A couple weeks ago I played in another Legacy tournament, again with Goblins, and won that tournament too.

Here's what I played:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege Gang Commander
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa’s Jitte

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Plateau
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
8 Mountain

Sideboard
4 Disenchant
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Shard Phoenix

I couldn't find any Goblin Kings, so I played a Pyromancer main instead. I also couldnt get a sixth fetchland, so I only ran five.

The Phoenixes in the board are for the mirror match and are amazing. Your opponent basically cant win if you have a Vial with five counters and a Phoenix.

The Jittes were pretty unimpressive without a Vial, and of course the fewer Goblins you play, the worse Ringleader gets. I did win a match against the mirror when I got it active twice, but I'm not sure how often that should happen against a better player. I'm also unsure if I would cut them or not.

Ports are insane as well and shouldn't be cut for any reason. They help a ton in the Landstill matchup, which is obviously a very popular deck. I'm still 4-0 or 5-0 against it in the two Legacy tournaments I've played in though.

Here's a link to the other top eight decks if anyone is interested:

http://monsterden.com/home/index.php?page=Legacy_Tourney

[HBspulse]

Good post!

I think most of us would agree this is more or less the optimal MD build. The choice of pyromancer vs king maybe and the choice for running that 23th land, namely a 4th rishadan's port. Whatever people say, playing two plateaus doesn't hurt your mana base.

Discussion is shifting more towards the SB.

-The lack of pithing needle is the most remarkable. You prefer disenchant over it? It's probably a good choice against the enchantment based hate like plague and humility some decks board in against you. Worse against cop, survival, etc...
-No swords : I found too they are not really necessary. Disenchant is however.
-Pillar : why not 2x blessing and save up slots?
-Shard phoenix :

now this is interesting. Obviously it's effect can help you a lot in the mirror. However, it's sooo mana intensive no?

ps : the flunkie-list copy-ers didn't playtest enough ;)

[Zilla]

@Gerry Thompson:

I'd say that's a near optimal list as well... with a couple exceptions:

1. I'd say you should probably drop 3 Mountains for a total of 8 fetches. You want a minimum of 10 ways to find your off color in order for it to be consistent. You could also go 7 Fetch/3 Duals. With only 8 ways to get white, you're not guaranteed to have it when you need it.

2. Shard Phoenix in the board gets a bit of a wtf, but whatever makes you happy.

3. If Pyrostatic Pillar is there solely for Solidarity, it should be replaced with Sirocco, which is simply the better hate. If it's for Storm combo in general, keep the Pillars.

4. Jitte is a hotly contested debate. If I ran them, I'd run two, though.

5. Your list is missing Kiki-Jiki. Baby Jesus is crying. A lot. In many ways he's the backbone of the deck, in conjunction with Matrons and Ringleaders. Make room.

6. Ideally, you want room for at least one Goblin King in there. It mitigates the damage of things like Pyroclasm, Sphere of Law, and Engineered Plague, and strengthens your game against other decks running Mountains.

7. Given points 4-6, -2 Jitte, +1 Jeek, +1 King would probably be the best way to go. That's the exact maindeck I'm running, and it's rock solid.

[scrumdogg]

It's always nice to see a Pro Tour player taking our format seriously & being respectful, welcome indeed. King and Kiki definitely belong in the deck and should be much better against a higher calibre of player (as wll as those of us scrabbling up the lower rungs of the skill ladder...) :cool:

My only disagreement with Godzilla on the benefits of Goblin King (as a one of) are against Pyroclasm, he does nothing useful. He dies, removing the bonus, which then spells doom for all your other men. To combat Pyroclasm, King not only needs to be a multiple, but a multiple in play.

What are the general thoughts on sideboard options for the mirror match, which should be gaining in popularity anyway & should be rampant in Philly? How many slots can be dedicated? What cards are people thinking of? Phoenix is interesting, but needs Vial on 5 to be truly effective. Multiple Pyromancers are dangerous (but attractive) and have other utility as well. Access to CoP Red or Absolute Law (take that burn decks...) or Worship or whatever in white seems weak.

[kirdape3]

Maybe I'm a complete idiot, but I really like the Standard plan of extra Siege-Gang Commanders accompanied by Clickslithers. Either one is a giant beating for the mirror (Commander is literally four guys that have to be defeated and Clickslither is a huge offensive threat that will itself require major attention). Sharpshooters are very good, but they're even more vulnerable than Siege-Gang. Goblin King, while useful for setting up for an Alpha Strike kill, is itself very easily destroyed.

[bigredmeanie]

. Ideally, you want room for at least one Goblin King in there. It mitigates the damage of things like Pyroclasm, Sphere of Law, and Engineered Plague, and strengthens your game against other decks running Mountains


Pyroclasm still kills all of your guys. Goblin King does not pump himself, and there for will die to the clasm, and all the 3/3s that were running around become 2/2s with 2 pts damage on them. He does help to negate the other board options though.

[dsg123456789]

I think that I would run, for GP Philly, if I went right now, considering only the sideboard:
2x Goblin King (assuming 1 maindeck)
2x Goblin Sharpshooter (assuming 1 maindeck)
2x Goblin Pyromancer (assuming 1 maindeck)
4x REB
2x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Disenchant

Basically, I'm assuming solidarity will not become a huge meta presence, but rather preparation for storm combo in general will be more important. I'm also assuming Goblins and Landstill will be the most popular decks.

2x Sharpshooter in play=gg mirror--It is really hard to recover from a one-sided wrath, and follow up with enough answers to deal with all 3 sharpshooters, while not dieing.
King will let you stomp over goblins and random red decks, which will most likely be prevalent from Extended ports.
Pyromancer gives you an alpha-strike against control, as well as another powerful tool in the mirror.
REB hurts storm combo and landstill because it can counter stuff--I think it doesn't need any explanation beyond that.
Pillar gives you a quicker clock against storm combo, which is good.
Disenchant is an answer to all sorts of problems.

My board has so many 2-ofs for versatility--in any given match, 4-6 cards can come in, but having 4 goblin kings and no sharpshooters, or 4 sharpshooters and no pyromancers, takes away the flexibility that allows decks to beat a diverse field. The 4/4/4/3 configuration sideboard will most likely not deal with the variety of threatening decks at the GP.

[midnightAce]

Is Burn decks a meta concern right now? A lot of people who just entered Legacy tends to net deck, results from Worlds suggest that Burn is some what viable. Flamebreak absolutely wrecks house against Goblins. (Compare to Wrath, it comes down one turn earlier, and Burn decks can potentially ignore Ringleaders' recovery and such and out race Goblins.) Is there any concerns about Goblin's match up against Burn? (Kings don't help, even with two Kings out, one Flamebreak still fries everything on the board.)

[Zilla]

@Goblin King:

Rrgh. It was late and I know this about Pyroclasm. I've used it against Goblins enough times to know that King does nothing here. Strike it from the record. It does help against Engineered Plague and Sphere of Law though, and I consider those to be significant threats in the metagame. 1 King should still be main.

@Burn:

I'm not sure it's a metagame concern, but I wouldn't be surprised to see lots of it at GP: Philly. The white splash gives you a lot of options here, and I think the white splash is correct because you absolutely want Disenchant as an answer to Plague and Sphere of Law. Scrum's suggestion of Absolute Law as an SB choice fixes the Flamebreak/Earthquake problem rather efficiently, because without mass removal, you will consistently win a damage race against them. Another option against straight Burn would be Aegis of Honor, but if they're running Pithing Needle this is a less attractive option.

[scarface]

Burn is huge in my meta, but I've never lost a match to it playing goblins. If they don't target your creatures you win, and if they do try to burn away your key threats, they run out of cards way quicker than you do. Plus, once you get jitte goin' the game is yours. As far as pyroclasm goes, you should be able to recover quick enough as long as you didn't over-extend too much. The hard part is knowing when to hold back, as they'll just burn your face if they sense they can outrace you. Is there anything the mono-red build could potentially sideboard for this matchup? I know white has tons of answers (warmth, absolute law, etc.), but I wouldn't know what to board in against burn in mono-red other than more jittes.

[Gerry Thompson]

@ Godzilla

1. I said that I would have played 6 fetches if I had access to them. I previously ran 8, and the lifeloss was a liability against decks like the mirror or burn. You can easily play 8 sources for your splash color and reliably draw it.

2. Now, there's no need to be condescending. Shard Phoenix is amazing against the mirror, since they have no reason to not overextend. Its better with a Vial, but sandbagging some dudes then wrathing them is a pretty good way to get ahead. Phoenix doesn't handle a Clickslither though, which could be a problem if more people start running them.

3. Pillar puts them on a constant clock, whereas Sirocco is just a one time shot of damage. I think I'd rather have Pillar.

5. I had Kiki Jiki in my list back in May, and it was always a "win more" card. It would never help me come back from a losing position, just further press the advantage I already had.

6. I also stated that I would have run a King main if I had one.

"2x Sharpshooter in play=gg mirror--It is really hard to recover from a one-sided wrath"

The above quote is basically why Shard Phoenix is amazing. Getting a single turn with Sharpshooter in play is difficult enough, setting up two of them is basically impossible.

@ HBspulse

Winning through Blessings can be pretty easy for Solidarity, but winning through Pillar + REB isn't.

I don't really prefer Disenchant to Needle, its just that I was unsure of whether I'd be playing against normal decks with COP: Red and Survival, or decks with Humility, Worship, and Engineered Plague.

Hope this clears a few things up.

[frogboy]

Now, there's no need to be condescending. Shard Phoenix is amazing against the mirror, since they have no reason to not overextend.

This is patently untrue, because a Vial at three is representing Warchief into Sharpshooter which will destroy your entire board with a quickness assuming they have a Fanatic or Gempalm or the ability to trade in combat.


5. I had Kiki Jiki in my list back in May, and it was always a "win more" card. It would never help me come back from a losing position, just further press the advantage I already had.

Kiki-Jiki is absurd against almost every deck. It helps you Sharpshooter combo people out, copy a Piledriver to bash, copy a Ringleader or Matron. It seems win-more, but it's really just win. Note that it makes setting up double Shooter a lot easier to do. (Also, yeah, it's more of a wet dream, but even just one is still totally dominating.)


I don't really prefer Disenchant to Needle, its just that I was unsure of whether I'd be playing against normal decks with COP: Red and Survival, or decks with Humility, Worship, and Engineered Plague.

Plague and Sphere of Law are the two cards that wreck you the most. You need outs, and Disenchant/Naturalize are the most expedient way to get that done. (Note that, for the record, eight sources is enough to run the splash, but ten is really better without noticeably having a negative effect.)

[Zilla]

@Gerry:

1. I disagree that 8 sources is enough to consistently have your off color in your opening hand. 10 is a pretty well agreed upon number as far as splash consistency is concerned. If the life loss is a liability, then run 3 or even 4 Plateaus with 6 or 7 fetches. 8 ways to get white total isn't enough, at least to have it by second turn consistently.

2. I wasn't intending to be condescending. It was late and I was glossing over this point because, while it's certainly an unconventional sideboard choice, I haven't tested it myself and so I'm not qualified to comment on its effectiveness. My apologies if it was taken any other way.

3. I always thought that too, but ask any die-hard Solidarity player which they're more afraid of. Pillar being a permanent means they have time to find a BEB to answer it. With Sirocco, they have to have BEB in hand and the mana to cast it or the damage is done. Once it is, you should have absolutely no trouble sealing the win. I've heard many Solidarity payers say that Pillar is a roadblock, but it can be played around. A resolved Sirocco, on the other hand, is essentially game. This is coming from people who have spent a whole lot more time playing and fine tuning the deck than myself, so I take their word for it. Like I said, though, Pillar is more versatile, so in some metas it may be the correct choice.

5. Jeek may have seemed like a win more card because you happened to be playing a good deck in a bad meta. I don't know. Myself and a lot of others are going to disagree strongly that it's win more, however. It often speeds up your clock by a full turn or more, it gives you more reach in the late game, and allows you to make recoveries from otherwise unrecoverable situations. He's absolutely worth making room for.

6. Yup. I was just agreeing with you.

[scarface]

Last night I placed first with vial goblins at a weekly legacy touranment here in San Diego. I went 4-0-1, and I believe there were around 32 people [Edit: I found out from kevdog's weekly report there were actually 28]. Here's the list I played:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Goblin King
1 Siege Gang Commander
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Aether Vial

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
15 Mountain

I believe this is the optimal build, at least for mono-red. I found that jittes weren't making an impact in the outcome of my games, and they just seemed to mess up my tempo. Fetch lands actually increase the likelihood of drawing into lands, as they reshuffle any lands hit by ringleader back from the bottom. I went up to 23 lands because I just found the ports incredibly useful in nearly any matchup, especially since they give you something to do on turn 2, and in some cases they can be much better than wasteland. My only tie was to landstill, and it was due to humilty + COP Red. I ran anarchies and pithing needles in the sideboard, but they didnt show up til he already had control. My only other tough matchup was the mirror, which I played in round one. I definitley would have lost that match if I hadn't top-decked a pyromancer at the perfect time.

[dsg123456789]

Scarface, that is the identical build that I am playing. I agree with you that the Jitte are too great a tempo loss to be functional, and I agree with your dropping of fetchlands. I, however, found that the 2-3 pain over the game was repeatedly coming back to haunt me, which is why I cut them (as well as for the ringleader shuffling). The 8 mana denial cards you run give you immense game against Landstill, which used to be a hard match.

[Zilla]

Yup, that's my mono-red list to a card. I'm splashing white now, though. There are too many cheap artifacts/enchantments that just ruin my day, and I want answers to them. Most notably, Engineered Plague, which can't be answered with Anarchy, Needdle, or REB. As for multiple Kings being a solution to this problem, I say they're not enough. At best, they barely keep you in the game against Plague. Disenchant answers nearly all of this deck's problems. Particularly in a wide open field like GP: Philly, I think the white splash is essentially necessary in order to be playing an optimal build.

[frogboy]

-1 King -1 Fanatic or Incinerator +2 Sharpshooters +white splash.

Sharpshooter is actually the stone nuts in the mirror and gives you a combo kill. You need white to not take E Plague and Sphere of Law in the shorts.

[scarface]

I disagree with adding more sharpshooters to the main board. I always find myself boarding them out unless I'm playing againts goblins, ATS, or RG survival. Even against the mirror, you need 2 sharpshooters in play to really ensure a win, and a simple fanatic or gempalm from your oponnent can put an end to your psuedo-lock. Sharpshooter is only really awesome when you have a sledder or a prospector in play with a seige-gang; without a way to sac creatures freely the card can be pretty mediocre.

As for splashing, how about green for naturalize. Wooded Foothills would allow you to run one basic forest in addition to the 2 or 3 duals, so wasteland would be less of a problem. The only things you would really be losing are swords and absolute law, but these cards are not really necessary.

[frogboy]

The difference between three and four nonbasics is negligible. This is particularly true when you realize that Wasteland is basically your opponent missing a land drop to Stone Rain you except you almost always are the one with tempo advantage. That means it's usually a bad play unless they're nailing your second red source and you can't play Warchief. Hint: Don't play nonbasics until you're tapping them that same turn. You won't draw your single Forest very often, but when you do it's often dead and you'll invariably wish it was a red source. You really do need 15-16 red sources in the deck.

Sharpshooter is actually insane as a one of in the mirror because all of a sudden you play him and your opponent's combat step is shut down because they have no good attacks, period. The reason you play more is because 1: he dies a lot because your opponent almost always needs to get him off the table and 2: if you have him in multiples you're probably not losing.

He's actually really good against Landstill if they decide to play Moat or Reverence instead of good sideboard cards, too.

[scarface]

Hint: Don't play nonbasics until you're tapping them that same turn.
The problem with this strategy is that you use your fetches to grab mountains early in the game, so by the time you need to disenchant something you end up waiting to top deck another fetch. Either that or you end up missing land drops because you're holding a nonbasic in your hand.


The reason you play more is because 1: he dies a lot because your opponent almost always needs to get him off the table and 2: if you have him in multiples you're probably not losing.
This may be true versus the mirror, but you were suggesting cutting goblin king and a fanatic to main board two more sharpshooters. Keep the extras in the sideboard.

[frogboy]

Well yeah I was kind of working on the theory that having more Sharpshooters main when the mirror is one of the more prevalent matchups plus all the other aggro decks running around out there might be a good idea since you are all of a sudden really favored game one. King is only good when your opponent has Plague or Sphere of Law out (Or Mountains and large men, but no one really plays RG Survival much) and Fanatic (Or Gempalm, not sure which) isn't really that great. It's playable, but I think the third Sharpshooter is better.

The only deck that plays Wasteland AND Sphere of Law is Landstill. I went over in the Landstill thread how all your mana denial is a massive kick in the junk for them. If they're playing Wasteland, that's actually a good thing for you, because it slows them down a turn and losing a single land isn't a huge deal. It also means they're Wasting a non-Port, which is again insane.

It's actually okay to miss land drops if you're fearing imminent enchantment hate and feel like you need to have a guaranteed out. You usually don't need more than four land in play anyway.

Besides, the problem that you speak of (I don't think it's really a problem, but okay) is the same if you have Foothills in your deck. Unless you're seriously going to fetch out a basic forest early in the game you do the same exposure to nonbasic hate. Again, it's negligible.

[mackaber]

@frogboy: playing 3 maindec sharpshooters is really a nice way of baxtering a solid dec. If the miror match weren't such a big concern I would have alredy removed him from the maindec completly, since in the survival matchup sparksmith is way better anyways. 3 mana for a 1/1 just doesn't cut it and since no one is actualyy playing prospector that's what he is. I personally play one prospector to give Mr.Machinegun a little more firepower.:blues:

[frogboy]

Sparksmith is obviously insane against RG Survival and UG Madness, but the thing about those decks is they see next to no play. Plus, the way you end up beating RG is by playing Sharpshooter, murdering their mana dorks, and beating up their mana with wastes and Ports while you Gempalm any fatties they manage to cast. By the time their mana can recover from all of their creatures being dead they're on the ropes or dead already.

Using Prospector in conjunction with Sharpshooter is usually awful unless you have SCG out as well or you're killing your opponent on the spot. Trading your guys one for one with their generally inferior creatures (Let's face it, the only guys you really want to feed to Prospectors are Matrons and Ringleaders) isn't that great of a strategy. Sharpshooter makes your opponent's combat phases pure hell, because there are often no good attacks with a Sharpshooter, a Vial at three or one, or a Fanatic in play, or two mana untapped. Plus you can like, block and trade and then it really gets obscene.

[EatThisShoe]

Has anyone considered using Kami of Ancient Law, or Monk Idealist instead of disenchant in the white splash?

Pros:
Can be uncounterable with Aether Vial.
Is also a threat, which isn't answered by CoP: Red.

Cons:
Can't be used EoT without Aether Vial.
Can't hit artifacts.
Can't stop Humility.
Two is not the ideal number of counters for Aether Vial.

The last one could be fixed by using Cloudchaser Eagle, but that is less ideal without the vial at four, and in general a less efficient answer.

This is an untested idea, but it seems like if you're being held off by an enchantment like Sphere of Law or CoP: Red, then the Landstill player is probably going to try to back themselves up with a FoW if they can, making the disenchant plan ineffective.

Also a new card from Ravnica:
Reroute
1R, instant.
Chant the target of target activated ability with a single target. Draw a card.

In the mirror match it could cantrip while making key Sharpshooters kill themselves, and turning Gempalms and Siege-Gangs on their own men. The card can be a 3 for one trade in many cases (Their ability not killing your creature, Their ability killing their creature, and you drawing a card). On the other hand it is a vary narrow ability and may not merit the space in the sideboard.

Just a couple new ideas to throw out there.

[frogboy]

Gempalm is a triggered ability. Reroute seems very narrow, plus you'd need enough mana to cast a dork and have 1R up. Seems slow.

[l_neiman]

So do most people think that a splash (White for Disenchant, Green for Naturalize) is necessary, or that we can get by being straight Mono-Red and just running Pithing Needles and Anarchy? Opinions seem to be split, and I was hoping to see if there was some sort of consensus.

Luis

[frogboy]

You're instantly kolded by Sphere of Law or Engineered Plague if you don't have a way to murder enchantments. Pithing Needle only stops Circle Red, which isn't very good hate and is also stopped by Disenchant/Naturalize. Anarchy costs four, isn't an instant, and doesn't kill plague. Splash.

[bigredmeanie]

Gempalm is a triggered ability. Reroute seems very narrow, plus you'd need enough mana to cast a dork and have 1R up. Seems slow.
502.18a Cycling is an activated ability that functions only while the card with cycling is in a player's hand.

Cycling is an activated ability. However when you do that it triggers Gempalm to deal x dmg.

[frogboy]

Cycling has no target and is thus not affected by Reroute. Cycling Gempalm Incinerator causes Gempalm's ability to trigger. The triggered activation is not something that Reroute can retarget.

[EatThisShoe]

Ah, yeah, my mistake about the Gempalm, it was late, so I was probably sleep deprived. Reroute could still stop Sharpshooters, Siege Gangs, and Mogg Fanatics, though. Still, the effect is narrow so not drawing the card at the right time could make it dead too often.

No one has any comments on using creatures with enchantment removal over disenchant? I was just looking at Nikko-Onna, which could be played off a vial at 3, is a 2/2 beater, and still removes all the annoying anti-aggro enchantments except Humility.

I would like to test Nikko-Onna out against landstill, but I probably wont get a chance for about 2 weeks.

[scarface]

I'm still not convinced that splashing is necessary. Anarchy and pithing needle solve all problems except engineered plague, and very few competetive decks have access to black mana (I can only think of RecSur, Pox, and Reanimator, but I'm sure I'm missing a few). Plus, you can easily play around a single plague or negate its effects with a goblin king. One time against reanimator, my opponent played an Ascendant Evincar on the first turn, and I still won by turn 5 without a king.

I believe the best mono-red sideboard for an ideal meta would look something like this:

3 pithing needle
3 anarchy
3 REB
4 Sirrocco
2 Sharpshooter

Anarchy not only answers all landstill hate besides chill, but it also provides an excellent means of hosing angel stompy, which I don't exactly consider to be an easy matchup for goblins. I know, that disenchant would only take up 4 slots, while anarchy + pithing needle = 6 slots, but I think the added bonus against angel stompy might make up for this.

As far as pyrostatics go, I believe Sirrocco is strictly superior in the solidarity matchup. Other storm combo decks are pretty irrelevant and can often be shut down by pithing needle (seinsei's top, etc.).

Lastly, I would consider switching the extra sharpshooters for jittes, as they're useful both in the mirror and against burn, the latter of which cannot be simply be ignored in my opinion.

[Gerry Thompson]

Has anyone actually tried Shard Phoenix yet? He continues to be ridiculous.

[strathe]

I'm still not convinced that splashing is necessary. Anarchy and pithing needle solve all problems except engineered plague, and very few competetive decks have access to black mana (I can only think of RecSur, Pox, and Reanimator, but I'm sure I'm missing a few). Plus, you can easily play around a single plague or negate its effects with a goblin king. One time against reanimator, my opponent played an Ascendant Evincar on the first turn, and I still won by turn 5 without a king.
I would like to second the call to stay mono red. The added strength of a mono red mana base cannot be ignored, especially given the prevalence of wasteland in this format.

Look at it this way. Goblins only has one good two drop. The rest of the deck either costs 3+ or is an excelent one drop. While its true that a major strength of the deck is its ability to cheat mana costs, any hickup on the way to 4 mana can be devestating.

The other side of this argument is pretty much what scar just said. Most of the answers are in red anyway.

Pithing Needle is an effective answer to many problems, as is Anarchy and Pyrostatic Pillar.

Even the Burn matchup can be strengthened, although I believe Jitte is not the way to do that. Going off topic for a second I think Jitte does not belong in this deck, for reasons already stated by others. If you are looking for a burn specific side board card, something like Zuran Orb or SUn Droplet should allow you to win the race. Hell, maybe even Dragons Claw will give you enough time.

So, basically, do Chill and Plauge bother you enough to splash for them? "the Fear" is a useful concept to keep in mind when you answer that question.



As to Shard Pheonix, I'm sure he does continue to work for you. He also continues to cost 5 and not be a Goblin, so I guess the real question is how consistently he combos out with Vial.

[HBspulse]

So, basically, do Chill and Plauge bother you enough to splash for them?

Chill doesn't. Reb is your 3cc disenchant here. And aether vial does the job also.

Sphere of law, plague, reverence, humility, ensnaring bridge, ... do bother me though. I wouldn't take any risks on this and I think most goblin players agree with me.

Playing two duals and lots of fetches, is a neglectable risk. Trust me or test it... :;):

You should play fetches by the way. That reasoning of not playing them because of ringleader, well that's bullocks. ??? Your first (mostly only) ringleader is the most important, and fetchlands help here.

Jitte is there for the mirrormatch, the burn matchup, survival matchup (anti-frog, elf, bird, rofellos, ...) and hey even the Trix matchup.

[kirdape3]

I have not yet tried Shard Phoenix, but is it better than just running extra Siege-Gang Commanders? That creature is also really unfair when you drop your second one (the first one murders their board, the second one just murders them).

[Slay]

What's so much better about Phoenix that Pyromancer can't do?
-Slay

[Zilla]

So, basically, do Chill and Plauge bother you enough to splash for them? "the Fear" is a useful concept to keep in mind when you answer that question.
Chill on its own, no. Engineered Plague? Hell yes. Even a cursory glance at tournament results in the last few months shows that Goblins is overwhelmingly the most popular deck being played and making Top 8 at tournaments. It is a given that people are going to start packing whatever hate they can for it. In a field as wide open as GP: Philly, you can absolutely expect black decks with 3-4 E. Plague in the side, because they are an excellent metagame call against the masses of goblins players that will most assuredly be there.

Engineered Plague hurts Vial Goblins more than any single other card. After several hours worth of playtesting, it is exceedingly clear to me that Goblin King isn't enough to consistently play around it. Neither is 3 Kings. Nor 4. The deck needs answers to it, and REB, Pithing Needle, and Anarchy don't do the job. Disenchant, on the other hand, does the jobs of all those cards in many cases.

If you're careful about how and when you play your Plateaus, it's really not difficult to minimize liability caused by a splash.

[kirdape3]

What's so much better about Phoenix that Pyromancer can't do?

Buy itself back for RRR.

[Gerry Thompson]

Phoenix doesnt care about Sharpshooter being in play, and a cycled Incinerator doesnt stop it from killing their team. Yes, its good with Vial, but after you wrath them, youll probably have a turn to buy it back if you need to.

[CavernNinja]

If Engineered Plague is the only reason to splash white has anybody thought about playing that terrible Darksteel card Echoing Calm. It will deal with multiple plagues so that you can better recover if the second one gets played.

[scarface]

If Engineered Plague is the only reason to splash white has anybody thought about playing that terrible Darksteel card Echoing Calm. It will deal with multiple plagues so that you can better recover if the second one gets played.
The whole point about running disenchant is that it gives you flexiblitity, not simply because it provides an answer to engineered plague. While the majority of threats you'll be using it againts are indeed enchantments, there are some artifacts that can't simply be ignored.


In a field as wide open as GP: Philly, you can absolutely expect black decks with 3-4 E. Plague in the side, because they are an excellent metagame call against the masses of goblins players that will most assuredly be there.
Okay, so assuming you're going to be faced with a wide variety of archetypes (at least in the first few rounds), I would still argue that pithing needle/anarchy is superior to disenchant. My reasoning is that pithing needle and anarchy provide an answer to pretty much any permanent goblin hate card you can reasonably expect to see, with the exception of chill and engineered plague. Chill is stopped by REB, which is in the sb anyway for solidarity, so that leaves engineered plague.

Now I ask you: how often are you going to see a competetive deck with access to black mana? The only ones I can think of are Reanimator, RecSur, The Rock, Nausea, and Pox (though It's possible The Game and Suicide Black could make appearances). I think it's safe to assume you won't be hitting too many of these decks, and you almost definitely won't see any after round 2 or 3. I'm confident, however, that belcher and survival-based decks will show up in much larger numbers. If nothing more, Pithing needle gives you an answer to belcher, a matchup that that disenchant actually makes very little impact in. Without pithing needle or null rod, belcher will crush you unless they get unlucky with a spoils. Also, while you technically have the advantage against ATS and R/G survival, it would make things a lot easier if you dropped a pithing needle on the table and sealed the win.

[MoxSlaver]

Hey guys, outside of some of the more volitile arguments on this thread, I would like to say I appreciate everyone's opinions here so far. I recently put together my first goblin deck and have started playing. My build is very near that optimal mono-red build posted here FYI. So here's what I'm here to say and ask.

First of all I have to say I'm really impressed with all of you and your ability to T4 consistenly with this deck. When I first looked at goblins I thought, this will be easy to build and win with. This is simply not true, goblins takes a lot more skill that I could have imagined. This brings me to my question, what are some of the more common play and combinations that I need to be working for in the different match ups. Fortunately for me right now my local meta isn't representive of Tier decks though there is a lot of rogue aggro there. What I'm wanting to know is what I need to be doing to set up the board for the win in control, aggro/control, and aggro matchups?

[FluffyPinkBunnies]

My common plays are usually:
Kiki + Ringleader = buttloads of gobbos
Matron for: Ringleader, Sharpshooter, warchief, or if i want to be ballsy kiki

it all really depends on how much mana you have at that time, what you have in your hand and what you can grab with Matron that will give you an advantage. Usual Matron Grabs include: Ringleader, Kiki, SGC, Sharpshooter, Warchief, hell ive even grabbed gempalm to cycle that turn only to kill a blocking/next turn attacking threat. But thats me, people here will probably disagree with me but meh *shrugs* whatever.

[MoxSlaver]

Out of curiosity, what does splashing green bring goblins. I was thinking about this and I think is some respects green would be more favorable than white given gobbos aggressiveness. I've been looking around through what green has to offer and I'll definitely post some ideas once I get them all written down, but I would also like to see what everone else thinks even if it means that I get flamed.:)

[brolio]

Out of curiosity, what does splashing green bring goblins. I was thinking about this and I think is some respects green would be more favorable than white given gobbos aggressiveness. I've been looking around through what green has to offer and I'll definitely post some ideas once I get them all written down, but I would also like to see what everone else thinks even if it means that I get flamed.:)
The green splash is for naturalize, is some/all metas you need to be able to deal with enginered plauge. this is mainly if you meta sees alot of goblins being played, otherwise mos people dont sideboard plague. If you were to splash green it's basicly because more people own a set of Tiagas vs. a set of plateaus. The white splash being better because u can sideboard swords. Black is splached mainly for cabal therapy and secondarly for stuff like duress, chains of mest. and patriarchs bidding. Overall the best splash in most players view is white. That is if you intend to spash at all. Mono red has the advantage of a more stable mana base and the ability to run more non red producing lands such as wasteland and port. Port useful in mana denial so you can buy the time you need to win the game. Also mono red sideboards anarchy to deal with COP:Red and humity/reverance.

[frogboy]

Mono red also has the downside of getting reamed by Sphere of Law and Engineered Plague. Usually the only splash card is the Disenchant effect because the main problem cards you run into are enchantments. There are some black versions with hand disruption and recursion, however.

Also, it is entirely possible to splash a color and still run Waste and Port.

[scrumdogg]

I would like to further discuss the possibility of a green splash. Green was initially dismissed becuase STP was also under consideration, but with STP out of the picture (it seems) why would Naturalize not work as well as Disenchant? We also have the advantage of running in color fetches that, if merited, can fetch a lone Forest in the deck (or stick to Taigas - it would depend on the level of fear-of-Wasteland). R/g also offers Artifact Mutation, which in conjunction with the Naturalizes & the 8 Blast Plan would round out a sideboard nicely. In a tourney like Philly, there will be a metric ton of relevant artifacts played. The ability to run a '7 Blast Plan' for artifacts like Belcher, Time Vault, Nevy's Disk, Crucible, Masticore, O-Stone, Jitte, SoFi, Aether Vial etc etc from decks ranging from the mirror & Landstill to RGSA & Jack Black/MBC & Angel Stompy & Fish to Belcher & FlameVault to unexpected decks like Ravager (it WILL show up, and is an easy port from both Type 2 and Extended) makes green a legitimate option, imo.

[MoxSlaver]

Okay, here's a short list from green that makes me wonder if it's worth splashing green for any other reason other than Naturalize.

Instansts (1 and 2 cc): Berserk, Bind, Blossoming Wreath, Crop Rotation, Echoing Courage, Howling Gale, Magnify, Natural Selection, Naturalize, Oxidize, Reclaim, Repopulate, Sandstorm, Seedtime, Serene Heart, Skyshroud Blessing, Tangle, Tel-Jilad Justice, Tranquil Domain, Tribal Unity, Undergrowth, Vitilize, Avoid Fate, and Rust.

Enchantments ( 1 to 3 cc): Burgeoning, Compost, Concordant Crossroads, Crosswinds, Dense Foliage, Exploration, Familiar Ground, Fecundity, Manabond, Mirri's Guile, Multani's Preserve, Overwhelming Instinct, Primal Rage, Root Maze, Steely Resolve.

These are just suggestions of cards to look into and see what needs to be tested. Some of these cards look really interesting to me and look as is they would work really nicely with Goblins. For ex; Tribal Unity (X2G) Creatures of a type get +X/+X until end of turn. With 6 or more Goblins on the board mid game this card looks like it would definitely be worth tapping out for. Other instants that looked really good to me were Undergrowth and Seedtime, the later especially in the sideboard. For the most part, the enchantments are cheap, have affects that cover the board and lend themselves to Goblins game plan to one degree or another.

I'm not advocating the auto inclusion of any of these cards, I was just look in through what Green had to offer if someone wanted to splash green as green gives Goblins Naturalize if needed like white has Disenchant. Green looks to me like it offers more cards that play into it's aggressiveness. Add to that by using Wooded Foothills a player could run 2 Tiaga's and 1 Forest without unbalancing Goblins consistent mana base.

These are suggestions and ideas that I think that cannot be overlooked or left untested. Look into the list, see what everone thinks and lets discuss this and play with some of these cards and see if they lend themselves to Goblins gameplan without messing up it's redundancy and consistency.

[B is for Big Job]

The thing that sucks about running things that arent goblins is that they either tend to suck with ringleader and get owned away or if theyre in your opening hand when you dont want them, or when youre in topdeck mode and you need a goblin for the win and you grab one of those cards you decided to splash for which made you end up losing

This sentence wasn't overly coherent. Please make an effort to develop your posts more thoroughly so that they benefit the conversation. - Zilla

[Squares]

Here’s the deal:

Carvern Ninja basically believes that NQG/Super-Gro has a good Goblins match.

I and a couple other people disagree. In that particular match, I have never won playing GRO, and have never lost playing Goblins. Well, maybe a game, but never a match.

Have you, the goblin players, experienced similar results?

[etakspeelstae]

Here’s the deal:

Carvern Ninja basically believes that NQG/Super-Gro has a good Goblins match.

I and a couple other people disagree. In that particular match, I have never won playing GRO, and have never lost playing Goblins. Well, maybe a game, but never a match.

Have you, the goblin player’s, experienced similar results?
NQG or Super Gro are good match-ups for you. Vial is a bomb. You can just overwhelm them, and with 4 Ports 4 Wasteland, it really keeps them off the good mana. They can't support Tividar's Crusade against us, even though people seem to be playing it. Sphere of Law is expensive for a 18 land deck, especially against mana denial and a super fast clock. In my experience it is a very good match-up. But maybe that's just me.

[Mogg]

I was wondering why no one plays lightning bolts. I understand the negative interaction with Ringleaders, but a bit more creature removal is nice and I like being able to deal that last 3 to the dome.

I run the same list as Scarface on the bottom on page 17 except -1 Incinerator, -1 Pyromancer, -1 Land, +3 Lightning Bolt, -4 Wasteland, +4 Mountain.

The other thing I was wondering about was how important the Wastelands were. When I play Vial Goblins it seems like a somewhat mana-hungry deck, and so I generally don't like saccing my land. I'd probably still have enough red sources if I swapped 4 Mountains for 4 Wasteland, but what I really hate is when my land gets Wastelanded.

[etakspeelstae]

I was wondering why no one plays lightning bolts. I understand the negative interaction with Ringleaders, but a bit more creature removal is nice and I like being able to deal that last 3 to the dome.

I run the same list as Scarface on the bottom on page 17 except -1 Incinerator, -1 Pyromancer, -1 Land, +3 Lightning Bolt, -4 Wasteland, +4 Mountain.

The other thing I was wondering about was how important the Wastelands were. When I play Vial Goblins it seems like a somewhat mana-hungry deck, and so I generally don't like saccing my land. I'd probably still have enough red sources if I swapped 4 Mountains for 4 Wasteland, but what I really hate is when my land gets Wastelanded.
First off, welcome to The Source! I'm so glad more people are posting here lately.

Secondly, Wasteland is ESSENTIAL. In the Landstill match-up, Wasteing a White source keeps them off Wrath for at least a turn, usually more. With a Port out, I've shut them off it completly.

Thirdsly, I don't advocate Lightning Bolt at times, and sometimes I'm going to. For the GPT's, I wouldn't recommend it. Why? At least where I am, you run into alot more competive decks like Landstill, and more evenly played between tier 1 decks (Last top 8 feature 2 Landstill, 2 Solidarity, and 2 Goblins). At GP Philly, if you don't have a 3rd round bye, I would play Bolts to fend off all the random aggro you will undoubtable face moreso early. But if you win byes, I would advocate not using them, as more Solidarity/Landstill will pop-up, and Goblins. Bolts are good in the mirror, but only best when your on the play with a Lackey. That start is also great, but is stoped by a Fanatic or a Bolt of theres, and you can just use your own Fantastic or a Gempalm to blast away any blockers in site.

Goblins can be mana hungry, but Vial and Lackey really help. I don't know how many times Wastes and Ports have locked my opponent down for 2-3 turns, while my Lackey and/or Vial does all the dirty work.

[MoxSlaver]

I would have to agree with 'Etak' about the Wastelands. Although my meta doesn't see a lot of tier decks, I do see a whole lot of aggro using non-basic lands. Popping an opponents 1 turn artifact land is huge, and in my case sealed the game before it ever really got going. Against Mono-Colored decks having 1 or 2 colorless mana hasn't been a draw back, nor has it really slowed down what I'm doing all that much, though I have found that I have to think through what order I'm going to play things sometimes.

As to 'Bolts', I'm not sure about that yet. Thus far when I'm playing Goblins, I find that anything that's not a goblin needs to go. From the stand point of synergy and out right speed, having a pre-board MD that's solid goblins is working out a lot better for me than one that has any number of non-goblins in it.

[Virel]

Hi, this is my first post so please be gentle. I wanted to mention the following trick a friend does with Lackey and the Viridian Longbow.

The Lackey can actually score damage on the opposing player by using a Viridian Longbow in the later turns. The Lackey can stand back do his damage before the combat step. This still allows a Goblin to be placed into play since the Lackey scored the damage. With a warchief out this can work very well. A friend of mine started doing this and the Lackey can often survive and be a factor putting Goblins into play even in the late turns.

Likewise, I like the lightning bolts in the goblin deck to act as removal to get opposing creatures out of the way on turn 2 for the Lackey.

:)

[Ewokslayer]

The problem with Viridian Longbow is that it basically underpowered for this deck (actually it is underpowered for any constructed deck). While the trick with Lackey is cute, it isn't impressive enough to warrant putting such a lackluster card into the deck. If you really want a Lackey for the mid game that doesn't require combat damage use Goblin Wizard. It has many advantages over Longbow;
1)It's a Goblin
2)It has a relevant second ability
3)It has creature type Goblin (I think that this is important enough to mention at least twice)
4)It can be vialed out.

[danyul]

Non-Sequitur - I have only skimmed the last few pages because the discussion shifted towards things that A) I already knew or B) I didn't care to know so if I am repeating something then I apologize in advance.

I was thinking on the bus today about how I could make a fun aggro-control deck that didn't lose to Goblins. After about five minutes I gave up and decided to try to modify Goblins just enough to make it fun for me to play. Here, for better or worse, is what I came up with
.
..
...

Wait for it..

..
...

Almost.

.
.
...
...
..
.
.



OK. 4 Meddling Mage in the sideboard.

You are thinking, "WTFSTFUWTF THAT'S CRAZY!" and you're right. I'm not entirely convinced that Meddling Mage will really help all that much in your troublesome matchups but, on the other hand, it's not too narrow a card. Landstill uses it against Solidarity and, seeing as how Goblins only has a 50/50 (from what I have heard) matchup against Solidarity I thought Mages could help there as well. Mages can stall or prevent E.Plagues and COP:Reds from hitting play and can help float you through random combo decks you might face in rounds 1 and 2 (Belcher, Tendrils) not that a Goblins player is afraid of being knocked out by a sea of Belcher decks.

Aaaaanyway, I figured that if MM was good enough for Affinity then he was good enough for me. To be honest, I havent tested the Mage yet so this could all be crazytalk but I thought I should put the idea out there and see what you kids think.

For reference:

My SB is currently 4 Disenchant, 4 Meddling Mage, 3 Jitte, and 4 REB.

I would side out the Gempalm Incinerators for the Mages in most matchups since I can't see you needing both against any particular deck and because the Incinerators are pretty much dead against combo/control.

Thoughts?

[etakspeelstae]

Non-Sequitur - I have only skimmed the last few pages because the discussion shifted towards things that A) I already knew or B) I didn't care to know so if I am repeating something then I apologize in advance.

I was thinking on the bus today about how I could make a fun aggro-control deck that didn't lose to Goblins. After about five minutes I gave up and decided to try to modify Goblins just enough to make it fun for me to play. Here, for better or worse, is what I came up with
.
..
...

Wait for it..

..
...

Almost.

.
.
...
...
..
.
.



OK. 4 Meddling Mage in the sideboard.

You are thinking, "WTFSTFUWTF THAT'S CRAZY!" and you're right. I'm not entirely convinced that Meddling Mage will really help all that much in your troublesome matchups but, on the other hand, it's not too narrow a card. Landstill uses it against Solidarity and, seeing as how Goblins only has a 50/50 (from what I have heard) matchup against Solidarity I thought Mages could help there as well. Mages can stall or prevent E.Plagues and COP:Reds from hitting play and can help float you through random combo decks you might face in rounds 1 and 2 (Belcher, Tendrils) not that a Goblins player is afraid of being knocked out by a sea of Belcher decks.

Aaaaanyway, I figured that if MM was good enough for Affinity then he was good enough for me. To be honest, I havent tested the Mage yet so this could all be crazytalk but I thought I should put the idea out there and see what you kids think.

For reference:

My SB is currently 4 Disenchant, 4 Meddling Mage, 3 Jitte, and 4 REB.

I would side out the Gempalm Incinerators for the Mages in most matchups since I can't see you needing both against any particular deck and because the Incinerators are pretty much dead against combo/control.

Thoughts?
1. Your deck isn't Blue.
2. Your better off racing Solidarity.
3. Meddling Mage is Blue.

Need I say more?

Goblin Wizard is pretty fun...

[FluffyPinkBunnies]

How are incinerators dead? They let you draw!
"Hmm no creatures?? Then ill draw into a better goblin, play it and swing for the win!"


Dont even put blue into goblins or even white and blue. I Feel goblins chould stay red and only red unless you wanna splash black for festering goblin, he might actually be useful if he is a goblin ( I think hes only a zombie tho...).
I swear one more crazy out burst like putting meddling mage in goblins and ill kick you in the nads!

The only creatures that should be in goblins, are goblins! The less goblins there are the worse ringleader becomes!

[danyul]

FluffyPinkBunnies Posted on Oct. 06 2005,12:11
I swear one more crazy out burst like putting meddling mage in goblins and ill kick you in the nads!

Not helpful.




etakspeelstae Posted on Oct. 06 2005,10:44
1. Your deck isn't Blue.
2. Your better off racing Solidarity.
3. Meddling Mage is Blue.

Need I say more?

Goblin Wizard is pretty fun...


Actually, I would appreciate it if you did.

@ etakspeelstae

1. Aether Vial w/2 counters > blue lands

2. In the Solidarity matchup Incinerators say "2: draw a card." I'd rather have something that says "Free: stall for enough time to make this matchup more than a cointoss." That said, I'm not too familiar with the matchup but I would rather play something that slows down my opponent for (free) than something that *might* speed up my kill for (2), especially when you should be tapping out to play threats against such a fast combo deck.

3. See 1.

Goblin Wizard seems like a strictly WinMore card to me.

@FluffyPinkBunnies

Incinerators are dead when your opponent is not playing any creatures. Sure, they cycle in that case and that's neat but I'd rather get something more effective (read: something that screws with my opponents game plan) out of the board for games 2 and 3.

The Ringleader argument is almost moot versus a combo deck because the Ringleader doesnt really speed up your kill considering that you need to kill them before they untap with four lands in play. I am assuming here that you hardcast the Ringleader for four but even if you play him on the third turn with a Warchief out, he's just an expensive 2/2 assuming that you won't be able to play the goblins you drew before Solidarity decks you.

@ Everybody else

Goodness, it was just an idea. Think about it a bit before you shoot it down. I'm not saying it's revolutionary but it's something to mull over or even *discuss* the merits of. I considered running the Mage as something of a gambit - a risky play that will either ensure victory or set you back. I'm still on the fence about it to be honest. However, I was hoping that somebody would be able to fully convince me Meddling Mage is either not needed or an interesting idea. I'm leaning towards the latter.

Extended Affinity used to run Meddling Mage even though it had no white sources (Vial, again) as a way to get a leg up in its problem matchups. I see Mage fulfilling a similar function in Vial Goblins. In the Landstill matchup you can name WoG and force them to find a Swords to Plowshares before dicing your army and given the limited draw in Landstill decks, that may take them a turn or two which is more than enough to steal the win. In the Solidarity matchup a Mage naming Brain Freeze or Cunning Wish can stall them for a turn or two and can cause poor players to scoop. Against random decks splashing black you can name Engineered Plague (which has been said to be this deck's biggest problem) and prevent it from hitting the table long enough to win or draw into a more appropriate answer (Disenchant). Even Disenchant isn't too helpful because once the E.Plague hits, it has already done it's worst. In all of these matchups the Incinerators are less than stellar but I'm in no way suggesting that I would *only* side out Incinerators in order to run Mages. I am in no way saying that Mages will shut an opponent out of the game. However, your opponent will be forced to deal with it in most cases and that gives you valuable time.

Anyway, I have class. Somebody please give me some constructive criticism instead of this close-minded fear-speak.

[LinkXwing]

You're working on a couple wrong assumptions about meddling mage here.

1) Affinity decks ran Aether Vial, Glimmervoid and Ancient Den and Seat of the Synod to all get Mage into play. Ancient Den was added just because of the Mage.

2) Considering goblins has lots of card advantage, it's main sources of it (Matron and Ringleader) Can't get either the mage nor the vial itself.

3) You NEED Aether Vial to play mage. Running 4 of both Vial and Mage in your deck you have a 40% chance of seeing either in your initial 7 cards. That would be a 16% chance to see both in your opening hand and in an average game against Solidarity you will only have a chance to draw about 3-4 more (non-goblin) cards in an average game.

4) Landstill does it's damnedest to keep Aether Vial not in play because it allows Goblins to play gobs at no tempo loss from casting them, keeps them at instant speed and allows them to dodge the sorcery-speed removal of WoG and Vengence in addition to the obvious dodging of counterspells. In fact Aether Vial itself was probably the main reason Landstill started maindecking Disenchant.

5) When playing against Solidarity presideboard both decks attempt to goldfish eachother. Goblins attempts to go for the turn 3 kill though most likely they amass and army and bring the Solidarity player to about 5 life on the turn 3 attack phase. Goblins never wants to cycle an incinterator when solidarity has 3 lands in play because Solidarity will attempt to combo off in response. In addition if you did get a mage out against High Tide, you should be naming High Tide itself to slow thier clock down immensely compared to yours.



Edited By LinkXwing on 1128620941

[etakspeelstae]

Actually, I would appreciate it if you did.

@ etakspeelstae

1. Aether Vial w/2 counters > blue lands

2. In the Solidarity matchup Incinerators say "2: draw a card." I'd rather have something that says "Free: stall for enough time to make this matchup more than a cointoss." That said, I'm not too familiar with the matchup but I would rather play something that slows down my opponent for (free) than something that *might* speed up my kill for (2), especially when you should be tapping out to play threats against such a fast combo deck.

3. See 1.

Goblin Wizard seems like a strictly WinMore card to me.


1. True. A turn 1 Vial definitly gets FoW'ed. Not saying they always have it... But the chances are equal. No Vial? Much deader then Incinerator if you ask me (or anybody, for that matter)

2. Free? I fail to see how it is free. Vialing out a stall card is hardly free when it slows your kill. They can easily play around it, with an EOT/Main Phase/While going off Wish --> Bounce spell.

3. See my 1.

Goblin Wizard is kinda a win more card. How is something as ridonkulously terrible as MM better? The Wizard can easily be as win-more as Kiki-Jiki is. While I don't think they are strictly "win more" I do think they arn't always great. But they DO say "win NOW" instead of "win more" IMHO.

[Ridiculous Hat]

I don't really see why you'd play Meddling Mage over Cabal Therapy. Therapy is a little bit harder to use, I s'pose, but is much easier to splash for and has immense synergy with the deck. The extended lists splashed black for Therapy anyways-- and that lets you sideboard Duress, Living Death, or even Dralnu's Crusade if you want.

[scarface]

@etakspeelstae:
I also thought Goblin Wizard had some potential, so I did some of testing with 1 copy and even played it in a few tourneys. In the end, the wizard causes you to run out of cards in hand more quickly, without significantly speeding up the deck unless it's dropped turn 2 with a lackey. Generally, by the time you'd be able to cast wizard, you'd already be able to hardcast whatever goblin you'd tap it for. Also, it's hardly consistent enough to provide protection from swords. I'd only suggest adding one copy in the sb if angel stompy is a problem in your meta.

[danyul]

Discussion, even when it's aimed at making my ideas look dumb, is always welcome.


LinkXwing Posted on Oct. 06 2005,1:48
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You're working on a couple wrong assumptions about meddling mage here.

1) Affinity decks ran Aether Vial, Glimmervoid and Ancient Den and Seat of the Synod to all get Mage into play. Ancient Den was added just because of the Mage.

2) Considering goblins has lots of card advantage, it's main sources of it (Matron and Ringleader) Can't get either the mage nor the vial itself.

3) You NEED Aether Vial to play mage. Running 4 of both Vial and Mage in your deck you have a 40% chance of seeing either in your initial 7 cards. That would be a 16% chance to see both in your opening hand and in an average game against Solidarity you will only have a chance to draw about 3-4 more (non-goblin) cards in an average game.

4) Landstill does it's damnedest to keep Aether Vial not in play because it allows Goblins to play gobs at no tempo loss from casting them, keeps them at instant speed and allows them to dodge the sorcery-speed removal of WoG and Vengence in addition to the obvious dodging of counterspells. In fact Aether Vial itself was probably the main reason Landstill started maindecking Disenchant.

5) When playing against Solidarity presideboard both decks attempt to goldfish eachother. Goblins attempts to go for the turn 3 kill though most likely they amass and army and bring the Solidarity player to about 5 life on the turn 3 attack phase. Goblins never wants to cycle an incinterator when solidarity has 3 lands in play because Solidarity will attempt to combo off in response. In addition if you did get a mage out against High Tide, you should be naming High Tide itself to slow thier clock down immensely compared to yours.


1. News to me.

2. True, but I never intended on getting Mage consistently. Like I said earlier, running the Mage is a gamble. I am very aware of the cost of running a hard-to-play non-goblin in this deck. What I should have been more direct about asking were the benefits of running the Mage should he ever see play. That is to say, do the as yet undefined pros outweigh the everpresent and commonly argued cons?

3. Again, running the Mage is a gamble, or gambit (because I like that word better, regardless of whether or not its definition fits my usage).

4. More news to me. Most of my testing is done over random people on MWS because I cant find any tourneys less than an hour away from where I live. Needless to say, most people on MWS are less than stellar players and usually run bad decks.

5. So, given what you have said about the matchup, would slipping in a Mage on the third turn slow down Solidarity enough for you to pull a win? If so, are you afraid of the matchup enough to warrant playing such a risky SB card? Just curious.


etakspeelstae Posted on Oct. 06 2005,2:45
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Quote
Actually, I would appreciate it if you did.

@ etakspeelstae

1. Aether Vial w/2 counters > blue lands

2. In the Solidarity matchup Incinerators say "2: draw a card." I'd rather have something that says "Free: stall for enough time to make this matchup more than a cointoss." That said, I'm not too familiar with the matchup but I would rather play something that slows down my opponent for (free) than something that *might* speed up my kill for (2), especially when you should be tapping out to play threats against such a fast combo deck.

3. See 1.

Goblin Wizard seems like a strictly WinMore card to me.

----

1. True. A turn 1 Vial definitly gets FoW'ed. Not saying they always have it... But the chances are equal. No Vial? Much deader then Incinerator if you ask me (or anybody, for that matter)

2. Free? I fail to see how it is free. Vialing out a stall card is hardly free when it slows your kill. They can easily play around it, with an EOT/Main Phase/While going off Wish --> Bounce spell.

3. See my 1.

Goblin Wizard is kinda a win more card. How is something as ridonkulously terrible as MM better? The Wizard can easily be as win-more as Kiki-Jiki is. While I don't think they are strictly "win more" I do think they arn't always great. But they DO say "win NOW" instead of "win more" IMHO.

1. Point.

2. I'm arguing that it slows them down more than it does you. Yes, they can easily play around it, but that would require them to play cards that are not drawing into a god-hand. While they do that for maybe a turn or two at most you are beating face. It might all even out but I can't say without testing first.

3. Fair nuff, but keep in mind that I meant the card as a gambit (see, it is a cool word) and not a consistently useful hate card.

Meddling Mage is definitely not "ridonkulously terrible". Far from it. I don't know where you play but Mage is a house. He might be hard to get into play in this particular deck, but that doesn't mean he is a bad card. And Kiki is not a win-more card, usually. I often find myself playing the Jeek as an out when the board gets clogged up or I run out of steam in the face of larger blockers or spot removal.


Ridiculous Hat Posted on Oct. 06 2005,3:43
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I don't really see why you'd play Meddling Mage over Cabal Therapy. Therapy is a little bit harder to use, I s'pose, but is much easier to splash for and has immense synergy with the deck. The extended lists splashed black for Therapy anyways-- and that lets you sideboard Duress, Living Death, or even Dralnu's Crusade if you want.

This is probably the best argument against playing Meddling Mage, assuming that you don't mind switching from an R/W build to an R/B build.

[LinkXwing]

A Meddling Mage in play on turn 3 in a post-SB game will most definitely help against Solidarity. In the 20% of the time that you do get the turn 3 Mage if you name High Tide and can follow it up with mass beats (not hard to do) you will probably win the game. However, there are just better, more efficient cards to run in that slot that would not require splashing 2 colors and/or require another card of yours to be in play when you only have 4 copies of Vial and no way to search for them. Pyrostatic Pillar is a beating and is in every way as good as Meddling Mage in both the Landstill and High Tide matchups. Both decks can play around it but it's still a good card against them. If you are REALLY fearing those 2 decks run Cabal Therapy MD and SB both Sirocco and Pillar. However, devoting that much SB space will leave your mirror matches and other aggro matches lacking. Sirocco and Pillar are absolute beatings against High Tide and were probably the biggest reason most Solidarity players run 6-8 BEBs in their Sideboard.

If you want to beat High Tide post SB realize that you are the control deck. You must stop them from comboing off to win. Sirocco/Pillar stops them from comboing and so does mass discard.



Edited By LinkXwing on 1128642799

[FluffyPinkBunnies]

I Know it's probably been said before but im not sure where it was exactly but Goblin Wizard belongs in this deck!!! At least a one of!!! It's really good and saved me alot of matches!!

Goblin Wizard 2RR

T:Put a goblin from your hand into play.
R:Give target Goblin Protection from white until end of turn.
1/1
He is Amazing!

If you havent tried him...do it! You wont regret it.

[Artowis]

What wonderful reasoning.

He's 4 mana, doesn't affect the board position, doesn't pump your entire team up to 'you die' heights and doesn't replenish your hand.

He's either an awful Goblin Lackey or an awful Aether Vial depending on your POV. In any event, he's hardly worth running in the deck.

[bunny]

I'm new here, but I've been playing the deck for a couple of months now and It's really hard to believe that people are considering to actually PLAY mm in goblins. It's a very gppd card, but it
a) slows your clock
b) requires 2 different colors of mana, and BOTH are off-color
c) it's to slow to play it with vial
d) It is no golin, can't be ringleadered, matroned or lackeyd out (I just invented 3 new verbs!)
e) All of this has been mentioned before, so what's the point of posting this?



He's 4 mana, doesn't affect the board position, doesn't pump your entire team up to 'you die' heights and doesn't replenish your hand.


He's either an awful Goblin Lackey or an awful Aether Vial depending on your POV. In any event, he's hardly worth running in the deck.


Quoted for truthery...

Speaking of crappy goblins... kiki owns! He turns your late-game matrons into ringleaders-on-a-stick. He is no win-more card, it is a win-now card (or the next 2-3 turns).

[scrumdogg]

Since we seem to be on a heretical bent...why not take a page from the Burn players (before they flamed out, burned out & got locked...) and try R/u for Alter Reality? Goblins tends to splash white (when it does splash) for enchantments that are bad for Goblins, correct? CoP/RoP Red, Moat, Humility, Reverance, Sphere of Law, Chill, Solitary Confinement...most of those are answered just as well by blue as white, and the consensus on Humility seems to be a shrug & willingness to beat the opponent to death via masses of weasels-sans-abilities. Alter Reality has other applications in other matchups, though. Starting with combo, turning High Tide into 'all mountains produce an extra whatever when tapped until end of turn' seems like a good play against Solidarity. Silver Knight now has Protection from Mauve...I know, in a tournament you must name a legit color, but he can now be Incineratored. Blue would also give you access to sideboard cards for other eventualities. Access to bounce would be nice, Echoing Truth on those Humilities before damage goes on the stack? E. Truth on your mirror foes important multiple goblins in the middle of combat (or yours after damage is stacked but before it resolves...). E.Truth handles any of the aforementioned enchantments that Alter Reality does not - and both diversify your board options nicely. Just a thought, but it doesn't hurt to think outside the box (nvm, I lie, people throw things at you, repeatedly :cool: ) especially if you are looking to gain an advantage in a stagnating situation.

[kirdape3]

PLEASE play Meddling Mage in your sideboard of a Goblins deck. PLEASE.

It's 4 less cards that are actually relevant in any likely matchup. You're not actually liable to cast Mage when you'd need it, and a turn 3 Meddling Mage probably isn't going to impede them from setting up and killing you.

[danyul]

Alright. Goddamn. Goddamn. The animosity. Goddamn.

I made a suggestion that I admitted was off the wall. It was a whimsical idea and I presented it as such. Link knocked some sense into me and I assumed the matter was over and done with. So I posted some wacky idea? OK, so what? The Goblin thread wasn't going anywhere and I thought I could try to spice things up but no, you guys weren't having it. Fucking shit man. Why must you guys go looking for dead horses to beat? I admit now and did when I first posted the idea that MM is not that great of a card to be putting in this deck. I was probably being allured by the coolness of dropping a Mage against a combo deck. I freely admit that, but do you guys have to keep hacking away at me/my idea for no reason? Link handled the situation nicely and *politely* and I didn't bring it up again. What the fuck more do you want?

Shit.

Maybe I'll just stop posting and go back to lurking. Then we'll all be happy.

Peace The Fuck Out.

[troopatroop]

Why would you post something in the LMF if you know it's a god awful idea. Seriously. This is the most heavily modded and important section of the entire site. God forbid people didn't know that you were kidding, and even if they did, this isn't the place for it. The fact that you took the argument seriously to begin with will open you up to alot of hate, and that's all I'm saying.

So basically, Don't post in the LMF unless it's important and you're prepared to be shot down. God knows it's happened to me.

[LinkXwing]

Hey, he posted something that had the possibility of being a decent idea...dropping mage against Solidarity on turn 2-3 and backing it up with very quick beats WILL win you the game. The problem lies in consistantly getting the mage into play. It was a decent idea untill fully thought through to it's conclusion. Sometimes the person suggesting the idea doesn't take it all the way to it's conclusion and that is what a discussion board is for.

Fuck, get off the guys case. Some ideas work, some don't, but any idea that might be good should be brought up. With a cardpool this deep there is bound to be something that someone hasn't thought of yet.

[etakspeelstae]

Has anyone considered Absolute Law as a possible choice for the mirror match with the white splash? Just for reference, here is what it does:

Absolute Law 1W
Enchantment
All creatures have protection from red.

It seems like it would single handedly win the mirror match. Most Goblin players won't be 'boarding in Disenchant for the Mirror... And most won't have white in the deck at all. We have already discussed that the mono-red version has answers for all of this decks problems, yet the Goblin mirror is usually just a coin toss. When the board is stalling, this thing just says "I win, NOW", by forcing in unblockable and unkillable damage. Is it just me or is this a serious option for inclusion?

Any thoughts? Any potential answers? Reasons why AL wouldn't rock?

[Nightmare]

It wouldn't rock because it gives ALL creatures pro: red. That means your opponents creatures as well. It's basically a win more card because you have to be in the winning position to alpha strike with it, which you can do with Goblin King (who is a goblin) anyway, and it stops you from wiping his board with Shooter and Incinerator, too.

[scarface]

Yeah, in the mirror absolute law is pretty much a fancy goblin king. If you're alpha striking, it doesn't really protect your guys from instant speed damage anyway, as your opponent can just cycle gempalm or activate siege-gang in response. The card has been mentioned before, but mainly as an answer to burn rather than the mirror.

[Braves54321]

Yeah, in the mirror absolute law is pretty much a fancy goblin king.
........
The card has been mentioned before, but mainly as an answer to burn rather than the mirror.
So if it helps in the burn matchup and can help to win the mirror why not play it?

I assume burn has a good match versus goblins(at least builds with mainboard flamebreak).

If it helps in the burn match and basically does the same thing as goblin king why not play it over goblin king?
(Other than the matron/ringleader counter arguement,I don't see any reason not to).

[Dyne2047]

Because unlike Goblin King, it can't be Vialed out, and is an easy target for removal like Naturalize and Disenchant.

[l_neiman]

Because unlike Goblin King, it [...] is an easy target for removal like Naturalize and Disenchant.
Good Goblins players would never side in Naturalize/Disenchant for the mirror, so that point is moot. Goblin King does have the advantage of being Vial-able, that you mentioned, and he's also tutorable with Goblin Matron.

Having said that, the turn you play the Absolute Law you can safely alpha strike without fear of your opponent ruining your plan by burning your King, for example...

I do agree that King is the better choice, mostly because you can Matron for it and Vial it out as needed.

Luis

[frogboy]

Actually, I've done that before; Vial superiority is so key in the matchup that I dumped Prospectors for Naturalizes in Extended season. I wouldn't expect to run into it, but if your opponent is playing Prospector they might indeed ditch them for Naturalize.

There's still the issue where King is like, a Goblin, and thus Matron-able and you can flop it off a Ringleader, but the point is rather moot as the alpha strike situation isn't one that should really be happening.

[HBspulse]

Vial superiority is so key in the matchup
Good post. I also found vial or no vial a critical parameter to possibly loose or gain tempo.

Would it justify to play one goblin tinkerer in the mirror?

How do you guys see Jitte perform in the mirror? I see a lot controversy statements about it.

[scarface]

I haven't tested the jitte in the mirror, but I imagine that it would help as long as you started getting counters early enough. Of course, it can seriously kill your tempo, so it might not be the best answer.

How about Simoon for the mirror? Right now, there is little reason to favor one splash over the other (white vs green), so this card would be very playable if it turned out to be helpful. Here's the card for reference:

Simoon RG
Instant
Simoon deals 1 damage to each creature target opponent controls.

[Shysh]

It's very good that many of you are discussing the mirror as of now. I don't see Goblins getting any less popular at this point, and not to expect mirror games causes you to lose relevent advantage. And though I'm not sure if Simoon is the answer as of now, this subject should be widely debated, especially with the growing number of players.

[cpt_ginu]

The correct way to play the mirror is to board in shard pheonix and disenchant if you have vial at 5 and 3 red mana you can be attacked. The disenchants provide a way for you to break the same strategy if used by opponent.

I've tested alot of other options but this is the best in my experience.

[Icemyn]

@Ginu

Ok shard phoenix is not all that good in the mirror and having to vial it doesnt make it better yes it does kill all their creatures but hey guess what it kills yours too.
And if you have to wait six turns to get a vial to 5 counters just so you can play wrath of god you are probably going to lose.
And yes i know the phoenix can recur so what you pay 3 red and get a 2/2 flyer.
If you really feel like killing all gobs why not jsut play pyromancer at least youll get to alpha strike sneak in maybe 6 damage to boot oh almost forgot its a GOBLIN. that almost makes it have synergy.

For the mirror there really isnt a good tactic you can use everything is too symetrical ex:(goblin king, absolute law, etc..)

Moral: Shard Phoenix is not good

[Raatcharch]

Why not use the white splash in the sideboard and get Honorable Passage for the mirror match?

It turns their alpha strike into instant death.

[frogboy]

Why not use the white splash in the sideboard and get Honorable Passage for the mirror match?

It turns their alpha strike into instant death.

Mostly because it doesn't work unless their Piledriver has power greater than or equal to their current life total.

[Raatcharch]

Why not use the white splash in the sideboard and get Honorable Passage for the mirror match?

It turns their alpha strike into instant death.

Mostly because it doesn't work unless their Piledriver has power greater than or equal to their current life total.
Ah, I think I understand. Since it would only win the game on rare occassion, it isn't good because it doesn't affect the board position?

But since the Vial Goblins mirror is a gigantic race, wouldn't that be a large tempo swing?

[frogboy]

Since the Goblins mirror isn't a gigantic race, no, it wouldn't. Passage can't even kill creatures.

I've said this repeatedly


the Goblin mirror is all about card advantage and maximizing your mana, and the person who gains control is probably going to win barring unusual circumstances. ...typically the board doesn't get clogged with all the Fanatics, Incinerators, Pyromancers, Sharpshooters, SGCs, and occasionally combat running around.

[cpt_ginu]

@Icemyn: Several pros like shard pheonix. Yes its symetrical but you know it's comming. Don't believe me, just ask Gerry Thompson. You know him; The guy you all ripped your lists off of after he got it posted on Wizards.com. It will make it so you never take a point of damage ever again from the other player. That seems good to me. Have you tested it? What basis do you have for your statement? Seems like if you can give your guys haste and throw some p-diddys on the table you should win after controlling the board for a few turns like the pheonix will. And its also not like you sit there doing nothing while the vial ramps up. You can cast the phonix and other guys. You will win because he can never put an offense together.

Flame edited out---Frogboy

Pyromancer - 1 shot wrath to get some extra damage in (maybe) or a lock of the board? Id take the lock.

Without this you reduce the mirror to a coin flip. How do you expect to even get to day 2 at the GP with a large portion of your matches being toss-ups. Have fun watching from the spectator section.

Moral: Shard pheonix, hefty, hefty, hefty. Pyromancer, wimpy, wimpy, wimpy.



Edited By frogboy on 1129563600

[Ridiculous Hat]

For the record, mass removal has historically been a potent way to win the goblin mirror. Typically in onslaught block the mirror was dominated by the Starstorm/Rorix sideboard plan, where you clear the board by slow-rolling your guys and finish with Rorix. There are quite a few problems with pyromancer being the go-to mirror target, as if they can kill it before the turn is through, his EOT ability will not trigger. Personally, I like phoenix more as it is a recursible win condition and mass removal target that can't be stopped once he's in play. This does not mean I would not play 1 pyromancer as he is good in many situations, but I think relying on him to win the mirror is not the best way to go.

However, another card that tended to win the mirror match in extended was Arc-Slogger out of the board. Would this be a better card to get out in the mid-game? Assuming you'll get 3 to 4 shocks out of him, he seems like a pretty powerful way to win the attrition war by removing key goblins from the other side of the table while leaving yours untouched and by providing a large body that is going to be very hard to kill with damage.

[mackaber]

@ cpt_ginu: If you had a little less trust in pro players knowing everything (I know what I'm talking about; I am one myself) you might have noticed that this thread has been around for quite a bit longer than Garry Thompson's list was posted at Wizards, and had you read the whole thread you would know that the pro himself got a lot a lot of ideas from the major "scrubs" at this here site! So if you wish to share your insight in things Magic-wise (and you might be correct arguing for shard phoenix) then please do so!

Flames deleted---Frogboy



Edited By frogboy on 1129563689

[frogboy]

The Goblin mirror tends to revolve around Sharpshooter superiority to maintain board control and playing the control deck and just running your opponent out of cards, at which point you just kill him. I actually havn't tested Shard Phoenix yet. It could be completely insane; even without Vial Pyromancer is pretty ridiculous, and Phoenix is actually better in that particular case. It's not like you just sit there for five turns, either; you can do the whole Gempalm and Sharpshooter thing too. I have doubts about it's non-Goblin nature because of Ringleader, and I'm wary of what happens if you don't have Vial and miss some land drops or are under a Port or something. It is, however, something I'll look at.

Edit: Slogger out of the board was terrible in Extended. Slogger's not a Goblin, costs five, and actually takes mana to use his ability, which you can't reuse infinitely. Phoenix seems strictly better. I should probably also point out that mass removal wasn't used during Extended season, either. Mirror strategy revolved around Sparksmith/Sharpshooter/Gempalm/Fanatic control.



Edited By frogboy on 1129563788

[Ridiculous Hat]

The Goblin mirror tends to revolve around Sharpshooter superiority to maintain board control and playing the control deck and just running your opponent out of cards, at which point you just kill him. I actually havn't tested Shard Phoenix yet. It could be completely insane; even without Vial Pyromancer is pretty ridiculous, and Phoenix is actually better in that particular case. It's not like you just sit there for five turns, either; you can do the whole Gempalm and Sharpshooter thing too. I have doubts about it's non-Goblin nature because of Ringleader, and I'm wary of what happens if you don't have Vial and miss some land drops or are under a Port or something. It is, however, something I'll look at.

Edit: Slogger out of the board was terrible in Extended. Slogger's not a Goblin, costs five, and actually takes mana to use his ability, which you can't reuse infinitely. Phoenix seems strictly better. I should probably also point out that mass removal wasn't used during Extended season, either. Mirror strategy revolved around Sparksmith/Sharpshooter/Gempalm/Fanatic control.
There were some mono-red builds that used slogger to good effect in modo extended, but yes, phoenix is probably better. I agree that active sharpshooter usually means ggs, but it's that much harder to keep him alive when everyone has fanatics and incinerators and possibly bolts, so I wouldn't say he's worth relying on. Mind you, he belongs because he's insane in every aggro matchup, and he will be my go-to threat, but I'd say it's worth it to have backup answers.

I'm not sure what splash is being advocated now, but has anyone tried sandstorm, rain of blades, or simoon for the mirror? Those seem like relatively cheap cards that do reasonable damage in the mirror, especially in concert with, say, a fanatic. Most of the key goblins do have 2 toughness but it should be able to help make combat lopsided or eliminate troublesome utility goblins. Mind you I have not tested these ideas so they could be horrific-- I merely speak as someone who has experience with the deck in other formats.

[frogboy]

MODO Extended is a lot different than normal Extended; even then, I'd stand by Sharpshooter and Sparksmith. You actually have a ton more room for those online because Vial is banned, anyway.

Your backup answers involve blocking, Gempalm Incinerator, Mogg Fanatic, and multiple Sharpshooters. You also have the whole Warchief smash plan if you happen to have a bunch of mana and dorks and nothing better to do.

You really need two damage to all creatures to kold your opponent. Simoon, Rain of Blades, etc, aren't all that great. Obviously they're insane with Sharpshooter, but Sharpshooter makes any attack phase insane for you regardless.

[Ridiculous Hat]

MODO Extended is a lot different than normal Extended; even then, I'd stand by Sharpshooter and Sparksmith. You actually have a ton more room for those online because Vial is banned, anyway.

Your backup answers involve blocking, Gempalm Incinerator, Mogg Fanatic, and multiple Sharpshooters. You also have the whole Warchief smash plan if you happen to have a bunch of mana and dorks and nothing better to do.

You really need two damage to all creatures to kold your opponent. Simoon, Rain of Blades, etc, aren't all that great. Obviously they're insane with Sharpshooter, but Sharpshooter makes any attack phase insane for you regardless.
Let me be a little more clear in that I agree with Sharpshooter more than anything else; it is the trump in the mirror, it just doesn't live often enough for my tastes. Usually I boarded up to 4 ftk, 3 sharpshooter, 3 incinerator, and 3 (random burn spell) which should be lightning bolt in legacy-- I'm not sure what you have instead of FTK but it's probably too slow in this environment, although it would probably be worth a slot if you didn't already crush random aggro.

Anyways, so far out of the suggestions I've heard, I'd say shard phoenix is the one I like the best, and if it's in your opening hand you can probably afford to sandbag most of your goblins, just playing out fanatic and the like to slow your opponent down until you can start repeatedly wrathing him. I can't really think of a better option and I'd say it has the potential to be quite powerful.

Mass removal has only been in the gobs sideboard when gobs was one of the most popular decks in the format-- that was the case in onslaught block and is the case now in legacy. In extended it was popular but the format was too varied to dedicate that many slots to the mirror and only the mirror. I think in the present format we have, some sort of massive mirror trump card deserves a slot.

[cpt_ginu]

@makabear: I know he got a lot of ideas off this thread but when his exact deck shows up in like tons of lists arround the net immediatly after the wizards article, its a safe assumption i made. Oh yeah he said they did too, in this very thread!

But like i said he may have given me the idea but i did test it so it is not "blind" trust.

If anyone come up with something better Ill say it is too. But please test ideas you put forward! If you want to flame me do it in a pm. It doesn't help the deck any for you to pretend i called someone a scrub.

[frogboy]

Actually, people didn't play Starstorm in Extended because of the not-synergy the card has with Matron and Ringleader. Pyromancer was the Wrath of choice. All you need to do is beat your opponent up with random 2/2s and just kill anything he plays while not getting randomly shanked by your opponent's Sharpshooter.

So yeah. People should test that Shard Phoenix card.

[scarface]

Has anyone considered Skirk Fire Marshall? It clears the board at instant speed and leaves you with a pro red 2/2. Even without using its tapping ability, dropping it turn 4 or 5 could possibly slow down your opponent enough to take control. Plus, it's always a way to tie the game if it looks like you're gonna lose. I admit I haven't tested the card at all, but it looks like it could possibly have some potential for the mirror and would provide another way to get around sphere of law/reverance/moat. Any thoughts?

[Icemyn]

@ Ginu

Im not going to flame or rant or make you seem like a terrible person I am just going to point out your misconceptions of my post

I did not say play pyromancer I said he was better than the phoenix and in some players verions is already in the maindeck so no sideboard slots are wasted.

and as stated the goblin mirror is not so much about skill and more about who gets the better draw Im was merely pointing out that shard phoenix (sp) is too slow to have an effect on the game if you can draw the game out to the point where you can every turn drop a shard phoenix then you would have won anyway.

maybe instead of adding phoenix to the board maybe add shapshooter which is better in nearly every way my adding pyromancer as an option was just that an option and strictly better than sp in MOST cases such as

1) clears board sooner
2) is a goblin
3) can allow you to win that turn

whereas the sp just allows you to draw the game out into its inevitable conclusion.

my argument against sp is that it is to slow, your argument, flaming asside, is that there exists a pro player in some distant land that on an off day said sideboard sp.

maybe you should be the one testing instead of just regurgitating what you heard from some "pro" on the forum of some website because as far as you know that "pro", is trying to get you to play suboptimal cards so that he can beat you when you go to the GP.

[frogboy]

Posting bad tech on a message board is not exactly the way to leak disinformation the way submitting it to StarCity or the like would be. In general, pros figure they'll beat you regardless of what you're playing because they think they're better than you are. (That's a debate for Community. Take it there.)

People board up to multiple Pyromancers because it's better than five drops in combo matchups and insane in multiples in the mirror because you can reset the board repeatedly.

Also, the misconception that the Goblin mirror is more about the draw than skill is way off base. Deck construction, maybe; if one person has three maindeck Sharpshooter and the other guy has one, it's gonna be kind of rough for Johnny Didn't Metagame, but there is no real "nut draw." The winner in the mirror tends to be whoever played the better control role, and there's so many ways to screw that up (including but not limited to not recognizing that fact to begin with and taking some misguided beatdown strategy) skill plays a huge role.

[scrumdogg]

The major advantage to Shard Phoenix (aside from being mostly unexpected) is that it isn't susceptible to the accepted mirror match plan. From watching the mirror, playing it some (I mostly play against goblins), and from closely watching all 4000 pages here it seems as though the plan is to maximize the amount of removal in the deck Games 2 & 3 by adding extra Incinerators/Fanatics/Sharpshooters/ Sparksmiths/Pyromancers as well as possibly cards like Lightning Bolt and Shard Phoenix. How is Pyromancer supposed to survive an environment like that? I agree that Pyromancer has better synergy with the deck, but if the trigger doesn't go off because he got splattered all over the landscape how does he help the plan? Apparently Naturalize/Disenchant isn't boarded in (why? isn't Vial Superiority worth achieving in the mirror?!? did I get that one wrong?) so Vialing in Phoenix is perfectly valid...by which point you should have RRR up and in a control game, Vial can & will get to 5 (barring it's untimely demise). Correct? Or not? Enlighten me....because it seems like Vial on your turn, blow up all your guys, untap, draw, Vial in SGC or Kiki, play Warchief and anythingseems like GG.

[cpt_ginu]

@Icemyn: I don't get it have you tested any ideas? How did they work? All you seem to say is no evolution of the deck is neccessary.

Pros:
1.Goblin type
2. +3/+0 will win some games faster
3. 1 mana cheaper

Cons:
1.Pyromancer is 1 shot
2.Needs to live
3.Only wraths Gobs. (MAY come up, admittly not likely though)

OK, so one way you get a tutorable wrath that is fragile, and pro #2 will never matter if you want to wrath anyways. The other you have to draw as normal and can do many many times. It is a trade off, like I said test both find out which one works best.

As for this:


maybe you should be the one testing instead of just regurgitating what you heard from some "pro" on the forum of some website because as far as you know that "pro", is trying to get you to play suboptimal cards so that he can beat you when you go to the GP.

Note I said:


But like i said he may have given me the idea but i did test it so it is not "blind" trust.

Interestingly I've also said I tested it in every other post about the idea! Oh and also I never read it on a website i heard it from him.

And you seem to have this idea that you do nothing until you get the pheonix online. Obviously if you do nothing but drop lands you will lose, but with the pheonix you get the worlds biggest safety net saying "you CAN'T take combat damage".

Im not going to keep defending my testing, do it for yourselves. I've tested both ways and this is better. End of story, and as of right now I honestly dont care to explain it anymore as you will not listen.

[HBspulse]

This is the SB of a vialgoblindeck that won a (small) tournament in europe :

3 Cursed Scroll
4 Disenchant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Powder Keg
2 Reverse the Sands (ok good card, but the cost..)
4 Swords to Plowshares

The scrolls caught my eye. Could they provide an advantage in the mirror? Or is the activation cost/conditional effect too difficult?

@cpt_ginu : I have sympathy with you. I won a large tournament with rishadan's port en a white splash for disenchant in goblins and still people here flamed on me for my choices. They were furious and very conservative concerning new ideas. Another person posted something about armageddon in the sb, people flamed him terribly. He never posts here no more. Conclusion : don't post any new ideas here, as you will get flamed at. Yes, this is the source.
Try to get some decent tournament results with the phoenix in your SB, maybe then...

[syssc9]

The scrolls caught my eye. Could they provide an advantage in the mirror? Or is the activation cost/conditional effect too difficult?

@cpt_ginu : I have sympathy with you. I won a large tournament with rishadan's port en a white splash for disenchant in goblins and still people here flamed on me for my choices. They were furious and very conservative concerning new ideas. Another person posted something about armageddon in the sb, people flamed him terribly. He never posts here no more. Conclusion : don't post any new ideas here, as you will get flamed at. Yes, this is the source.
Try to get some decent tournament results with the phoenix in your SB, maybe then...
Yes, the Scrolls are a great choice for this deck. I have been running them in similar decks since Ice Age. Unfortunately I have no recent Tourney results to convince anyone on The Source. Sigh...

The rest of your post is a sad testament to a trend I have also noticed lately here. However, this is still the best information I can find for Legacy on the net. Also the best moderated. OTOH, The Source makes us all put our Tournament results where our mouths are, and that's not all bad, just frustrating sometimes.

[Deep Inside]

I'll just throw this out stupidly, and then you can pick on it, I don't care, but why not just play some Pyroclasm in the SB.
So you just play a few gobs, opponent thinks you hav a weak draw, overextend, and gets his board wiped out.

If this idea was dismissed earlier pardon me, I only read the last 2 pages

[B is for Big Job]

The problem with scroll is that its way to slow and by the time youre able to activate it and really start to abuse it is about turn 4 or 5 and by then youre dead or on the verge of dying. Youre better off just playing jitte even though the mana investment is 1 more. Unlike scroll, jitte can 2 for 1 and can make your creatures live or gain life in a crucial point.

The thing with pyroclasm is like you said, you can sweep their board, but during your turn. So you could kill all of this guys and yours and leave yourself open for a massive attack with what goblins he has left in his grip on his turn.

If removal is such a problem, why dont people start playing gob sligh and just control the board with burn and then just rail with goblins. Its not like this plan hasnt worked in the past, but people just wanna kill quick and hope to race combo decks, which gob sligh can do with the amount of burn and cheap creatures.

[effang]

Just some general obs and questions about playing the deck. I think i'm testing against it wrong since I'm having better than expected win rates.

1st, if you are playing control gobbos against control packing fow, cspell, and maybe daze...do you just let your aether vial and lackey do all the work?

let's say you're hand is
vial piledriver warchief matron matron and the rest is land.

your vial resolves, now do you sit on the vial and slow your entire play by a full turn? or do you hit 2 mana and hardcast driver, then turn 3 hardcast chief, and only use the vial for whatever you're drawing into?

and how does this change if your land configuration contained a wasteland or a port? are you going to be changing the aggro beatdown deck to some type of disruptiong/control.dec?

Basically, I've been playing into the daze and the fow, regardless if i have aether vial out. i mean, aether vial is insane, but i'd rather play through rather than have "the fear."

SECOND, sideboarding. Against aggro/control decks what do you bring out for your Red Blasts? I can see sharpshooter, siege-gang, pyromancer, and maybe 1-2 ringleaders coming out. everything else seems to be good since you still want early beats and are taking out things that are too slow for turn 2 counterspell.

i don't take out the light bolts or the gempalms because they can still take out enforcers, togs, werebears, Mmages, and whatever else.

[mackaber]

Cursed scroll is a great weapon against goblins, just not in this dec! Since it doesn't have too much synergy with the decs mana curve, and especially not with ringleader.
Is there anyone out there besides Gary Thompson who has actually tested the phoenix in the mirror match?
Cause up until now everybody is claming that it should be great but nobody has really tried it!
Assuming your opponent knows about phoenix(which he should since it's been posted on a major strategy site by a pro) he won't overextend, until he can set up a major haste attack or he will just keep you from hitting 5 mana.

[cpt_ginu]

Is there anyone out there besides Gary Thompson who has actually tested the phoenix in the mirror match?
Cause up until now everybody is claming that it should be great but nobody has really tried it!
Uh see every post I've made on the last two pages. All say I have tested it.

[Icemyn]

@ Ginu
I apologize for being an ass but after the flame (before the mods attacked) I was moderately annoyed, but then I realized I was inadvertantly advocating a suboptimal card.

Yes and I have tested the phoenix and it is probably the best way to go out of the sideboard against goblins for several reasons.

1) The goblin mirror is not about speed, in most cases you cannot outrun the other player you are basically playing the same deck.

2) once you get the vial to five every turn thereafter with a three mana investment you get a 2/2 flyer who nukes any offensive the opponent can muster.

3) it flys basically making it unblockable in the mirror.

flaw (only one here)

1) if your opponent knows your running it he will side in naturalize/disenchant.

so in the end its pretty obvious that it is the least symmetrical of the sieboard options.

[Bryant Cook]

I was at Jander's house the other day and his brother had a very interesting card on the table.
Goblin Lookout
Card type: Creature
Creature type: Goblin
Power/Toughness:1/2
Casting cost: 1R
Card text: TAP, Sacrifice a Goblin: All Goblins get +2/+0 until end of turn.

Maybe this could be played over goblin pyromancer. I myself hate pyromancer in this deck and this guy seems to me like he's a little bit better, 1 goblin instead of your team.

[Zilla]

The most significant difference between the two is that Pyromancer gives an extra +1 to all your threats. He also doesn't require a Warchief on the table for his effect to be active immediately, although this is the lesser of the two issues. The main thing is that Pyromancer is there as a tool for alpha strike. Barring something like Wing Shards, you should be winning the game the turn you play Pyromancer, hence his drawback is irrellevant. Furthermore, you can use Gempalm, Prospector (if you play it) or SGC to get him off the table before EOT, in which case the "destroy all goblins" effect never triggers.

The main issue is that for the purposes of alpha striking, which is what Pyromancer is there for, Pyromancer's ability to give an extra +1 to all your goblins is huge. Not to mention the fact that he himself can attack if you have a Warchief on the table, which is an extra 5 damage alone. This damage adds up, and it is key to a successful alpha strike. In my testing, the turn Pyromancer hits the table I'm able to win, but often only within a few points of damage. Lookout in the same circumstances would have required at least an extra turn to do the same job.

[midnightAce]

This is off topic, but I feel like there is a need to address this.

Guys, easy with the flame and everything. There is no tone for online forums, the most random comments can be percieved as an insult, but please try to think everything towards the positive direction.

Why do we spend our time on this forum and reading ant sized paragraphs page after page? Because we love Magic, we love the deck, and we want to improve on it. When we introduce new ideas, it's always a good idea to include the test results. That said, PLEASE, remember the following:

There is 9348392084320 builds of Goblins out there. Black slaph for Therapy, Bidding, Green splash for Naturalize, White splash for Disenchant, Blue splash for Altered Reality, MonoRed, artifact splash with Needle and Jitte, etc etc etc. There is NO WAY that everybody is testing the same mirror match. Perhaps the SP is useful in MonoRed vs MonoRed, perhaps Absolutely Law is useful in White Splash vs MonoRed, etc etc etc

The point is that nobody tests against the same deck for mirror match, that's why everybody's result might be drastically different. There are two ways to solve this:

Make a standard list of The Gob Test deck. Have a standard list and most general SB choice, post it up, and say: if you want to introduce new ideas into the Vial Gob archtype, mirror match test it against this list right here, and post your results. That way, everybody have a consistant "opponent" for some consistant results.

The other choice would be to post the deck list of the deck that you are playing against. (This is a pure example, please have the common sense not to flame.) For example, I'm going to introduce the tech Goblin Vandal into the deck because I believe Vial superiority is the key to winning mirror match. I will post to say what I would side out for the Vandal, I would post the decklist of mirror that I tested against, and then I would explain the results. That is much credible and convincing than "I have tested Vandal, works like savage."

Just my 2 cents.

[/rant]

[cheesespecter]

Hi there,

Another sollution to the mirror: side in (extra) Goblin Pyromancer(s).

Play enough blockers to keep him from winning, play Pyromancer, and race his ass to defeat.


(EDIT) Oh, and another thing: how do you guys think about Goblin Goon? Against most decks, you'll barely notice his drawback. Only problem I can think of is the not so perfect synergy with lackey (in the first/second turn your oppo might have a bigger army than you) but with a warchief out you can easily hardcast him (3R is a piece 'o cake for your ports and wastelands).

thanks,

[Lazer_Moses]

Hello all,

I am sure this has been talked about before, but why not splash green? You get on-color fetches, Naturalize, Artifact Mutation, just to name a few. Some people on this thread have been flaming people for "putting non-Gobs in your Gob deck" But this is the side board, and looking at what the Current SB's are, they are not full of goblins


(On a side note, why was Skirk Prospector dumped from the deck? What page of the thread can I find it on? thanks)

[dsg123456789]

Prospector was dropped because he just wasn't that useful as a card-disadvantage mana-accelerator. You already have 12 one-drops without him, and he was the weakest card in the list. Thats why he got cut.

[FluffyPinkBunnies]

Instead of Naturalize in the G/R build. Why not Hull Breach? It seems much better.

Hull Breach GR
Destroy target enchanment; Destroy target artifact; Destroy target Enchantment and artifact.

[The Professional N00b]

Sorcery. Say you want to surprise your opponent and say, Naturalize Humility EOT and he tapped out and swung with tokens, you just won the game. Mainly because you caught your opponent off guard.

[calosso]

Had anyone tested Master Warcraft that card is ridiculous. It is a falter,lure, and a god awful fog. I have consulted with the infinate wisdom of IBA and he give me the seal of approval.

[Evil Roopey]

4 Warchief
4 Piledriver
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Fanatic
4 Lackey
4 Incinerator
2 Pyromancer
3 SGC
1 Kiki-Jiki

4 Vials

3 Ports
4 Wasteland
15 Mountain

SB:
4 Needle
2 Pyromancer
4 REB
4 Sirocco
1 SS

I thought I'd post my most recent list, if anyone really gives a flying fuck. The new list seems to be busting a lot of peoples balls, so you might want to look into it.

EDIT: I forgot to mention why some things arent there and why some are.

3 SGC. This has been nuts. I am never unhappy to draw one.

No MD SS. Well SS is good, but the second Pyromancer is better in the mirror. I have tested this thoroughly before I posted it btw.

Thats basically it.

[MasterBlaster]

Evil Roopey: I like the 3 seige-gangs in your list. My friend has been running 3 SGCs since as long as hes had his goblin deck. SGC is way too synergistic with Kiki, Piledriver, and Sharpshooter(well, apparently not for you.) to only run one of in the deck, in my opinion.

Also, whats the general consensus about lightning bolt?

Pros-It can get an early lackey through by burning a would-be blocker.
You can throw 3-6 damage at your opponent's head and win a turn earlier.

Cons-Not synergistic with Ringleader.

[Evil Roopey]

I have found that the fact that it is completely antisynergistic witht the deck to outway and pros the card might have. Upping the land count as of late means that there are already more non-goblin cards in the deck. Adding even more would be poor and all around stupid. If what you are trying to do is get Lackey through 4 Fanatic, 4 Incinerator should easily do the trick. That is more than enough removal for an aggro deck.

Roop

[LinkXwing]

Cons-Not synergistic with Ringleader.
Or Vial, Matron, SGC, Pyromancer, Kiki, King, Incinerator, Piledriver or Warchief.



Edited By LinkXwing on 1130525205

[DI419]

Quick question: Are the designers even trying to tweak to do bad, instead of horrible, against Rabid Wombat, or is it just given up as a matchup where you will win when they're mana screwed/you get the nuts and that's it? Or is it just a matter of adding 4 Flashfires to the SB if it's that much of a metagame concern?

[Slay]

Most builds have Anarchy/Disenchant in the board, and then Pithing Needle. All you really need to do is build up a sufficient strike force, Anarchy/Disenchant/Needle on RoP: Red, and your matchup turned around.

But it's usually regarded as a terrible matchup no matter what. Any deck where a third of the deck is creature hate is going to make you a sad panda regardless.
-Slay

[l_neiman]

If you're running Jittes, which a lot of people don't seem to be doing, your matchup vs. Wombat is significantly better. You really don't care about Humility when your Jitte's getting counters and you can pump your dudes... Moat + Humility would be bad, though, ;). Granted most people don't seem to like Jittes in Goblins because they're generally only good in the creature matchups, but I found that when testing Wombat vs. Jitte Goblins, Wombat was winning waaaaay less than it should.

Luis

[umbowta]

I found that when testing Wombat vs. Jitte Goblins, Wombat was winning waaaaay less than it should.
Does anyone else have testimony to confirm this? I have not tried the Jitte in Gobbos yet. Is it actually worth testing?


[EDIT] The inclusion of Jitte had been discussed around pages 14-16. It seems that the general consensus was net tempo loss and not active often enough.

I will be testing against Rabid Wombat on Thursday night. At first, I dismissed Wombat as TIBA's pet deck, a rogue that I probably wouldn't see. However, Wombat is catching on and I am now seeing it played by two local players. One of which, Krzymoose, piloted it to the finals of GPT Detroit. We have discussed such options as Flashfires, Armageddon, Flaring Pain (not so much) and Various degrees of graveyard hate. Any other suggestions would be welcome.[EDIT]

[Zilla]

[EDIT] The inclusion of Jitte had been discussed around pages 14-16. It seems that the general consensus was net tempo loss and not active often enough.

I will be testing against Rabid Wombat on Thursday night. At first, I dismissed Wombat as TIBA's pet deck, a rogue that I probably wouldn't see. However, Wombat is catching on and I am now seeing it played by two local players. One of which, Krzymoose, piloted it to the finals of GPT Detroit. We have discussed such options as Flashfires, Armageddon, Flaring Pain (not so much) and Various degrees of graveyard hate. Any other suggestions would be welcome.[EDIT]
About Jitte, any concensus you found here against Jitte doesn't really exist elsewhere. Roughly half of the Goblins decks you see Top 8ing at GPT's and the like are running Jittes, so it's not exactly the underdog. I haven't tested Jitte in Goblins against Wombat, but I've tested other aggro decks with Jitte against Wombat and it does make a difference.

As for SB options against Wombat for Goblins, Armageddon is just strictly worse than Flashfires, obviously. It's narrow, sure, but you have to ask yourself how many decks Goblins is losing to, and then ask how good Geddon is going to be against them. As far as I'm aware, The only decks Goblins has any kind of problem with are white-based control/aggro-control, or combo which is fast enough to race Geddon anyway. I guess an exception might be Turboland, but until that deck catches on, Flashfires is probably going to be the better choice.

You're going to want to run Disenchant in the board as well, to compliment the Flashfires. This kills RoP: Red and Humility, which is nice, but it more importantly kills the Sacred Ground that your Wombat opponent will assuredly be siding in against you.

I don't know how well this all works in practice, particularly in Goblins. All the cards you need to bring inj against Wombat are bad for the deck's overall function, so it's difficult to say how consistent this strategy will be, but it's worth a try.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Most builds have Anarchy/Disenchant in the board, and then Pithing Needle. All you really need to do is build up a sufficient strike force, Anarchy/Disenchant/Needle on RoP: Red, and your matchup turned around.

But it's usually regarded as a terrible matchup no matter what. Any deck where a third of the deck is creature hate is going to make you a sad panda regardless.
-Slay
This plan is signifigantly worse than Flashfires. I'll give you two reasons; Wing, Shards. Between Wing Shards and WoG, the goblin player often finds themselves caught between a rock and a hard place.

I'm perplexed as to what makes you think building up a strike force will be easy when they play so many sweep effects.

[troopatroop]

Why not start playing Flashfires in the SB? really... Wombat is this deck's bad matchup, so why not just rock it?

My presented SB:

3 Flashfires
3 Sharpshooter/Pheonix/MirrorTech
4 Pillar
3 REB

Is there enough MWC right now to warrant this SB?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

No. Wombat is not played. There is absolute no reason to run Flashfires. How about a nice playset of Lightning Bolts instead?

[calosso]

Why not start playing Flashfires in the SB? really... Wombat is this deck's bad matchup, so why not just rock it?

My presented SB:

3 Flashfires
3 Sharpshooter/Pheonix/MirrorTech
4 Pillar
3 REB

Is there enough MWC right now to warrant this SB?
Instead of running flashfires you should be running pithing needle, or even master warcraft. :cool:

[umbowta]

No. Wombat is not played. There is absolute no reason to run Flashfires. How about a nice playset of Lightning Bolts instead? Your sarcasm is humorous, and suspect. I am interested in finding out what flashfires will really do to Wombat.

Godzilla, I agree with your asessment of Armageddon VS Flashfires. Also, the Jitte will be tested. If Flashfires is added to the sideboard, it may be at the expense of mirror tech. If Jitte tests well against Wombat, while also helping the mirror, it would seem to be the better choice. Perhaps just making room for two jittes in the maindeck would be workable. Disenchant, imo, is an automatic 4 of in the white splash build, which I am running. It really will come down to which makes the most significant improvement in a nightmare of a matchup. I feel, if I was piloting Wombat, Flashfires would be a larger pain in my ass than would the jitte. Time will tell.

[edit]11/4/05 The guy I was going to test with didn't show up until too late on thursday night. I did play 3 games (which take forever against wombat) with 2 Jitte in the main. Both times they came up, I wished they were Flashfires, which would have owned the game. [edit]

[l_neiman]

Re: Jitte...

In my mirror test games, when Jitte was drawn/played, it absolutely broke the game in half. Once you start piling counters on it your Goblin opponent will have a really hard time coming back into the game, since you can nuke his Warchief to make his guys lose haste, nuke a huge Piledriver, nuke a Siege-Gang, etc. Yes, you might be losing guys to get counters on the Jitte, but is really owns the table. The main problem is flipping one over with a Ringleader, which is obviously bad. This is leading me to want to try 3 maindeck Jittes, to improve our chances of drawing into one and being able to use it.

Vs. Wombat (and mind you it was an older version, that still had Akroma's Vengeance instead of Disenchant), Jitte alone trumped Humility. With them having Disenchants, however, it's surely less of a problem. But that's why you'll be packing something like Anarchy, that I personally like vs. Wombat an awful lot more than Flashfires. Sure Flashfires leaves them with no lands, but it does nothing against Moat, Humility, Angels, Dragons, Soldier tokens made in response, etc., and it only indirectly solves the problem of ROP:Red, since they can always play more lands to activate it.

Again, my sample-size of test games probably isn't large enough to make a concrete determination, but again, when Jitte was drawn/equipped it generally swung the game. Having said that, it would definitely be the first card to side out in certain matchups.

Hope this helps.

Luis

[knight101]

I've been thinking about how to shore up the mirror match. Now Jitte seems like a good start, but I've also thought of replacing Rishidan Port with Quicksand.

Pros: Stops 99.9% of their team

Cons: It's a Wasteland target
Produces colorless mana
Tap: Sacrifice

Thoughts?

[l_neiman]

The fact that it's a Wasteland target is the worst problem, I think, since they can keep you from using it normally. Also they can just tap it with their Ports before attacking and you're sort of screwed...

My verdict: there are better cards for the mirror. Also remember that Port is part of what helps you beat up on LandStill and other control, by messing with their mana even more. Without Port your control matchup takes a hit, especially against something like Rabid Wombat.

Luis

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If you want a build aimed specifically at winning the mirror, I would think that cutting Wasteland and Port is the way to go. The mirror match has never been won by mana denial, in my experience... going back down to 18-19 Mountains, and putting in more Goblins and Jitte/Bolt/MasterWarcraft seems the way to tinker the deck to gaining the mirror advantage.

[CavernNinja]

If you want a card to truly dominate the mirror have any of you considered SoFI? It makes your dude unblockable and takes 2 for 0 every time you swing. If you equip a lackey then I don't see how you could lose the game from then on.

[Zilla]

If you want a card to truly dominate the mirror have any of you considered SoFI? It makes your dude unblockable and takes 2 for 0 every time you swing. If you equip a lackey then I don't see how you could lose the game from then on.
A decent point, except that any sane Goblins player will be running the white splash for Disenchant, particularly because of the new Dredge-a-Tog craze going on right now and the fact that they tend to run Plague as a 4-of in the board. That Disenchant also hits Vial, and it's been oft-said that Vial superiority is the key to winning the mirror doesn't hurt either, I should think.

In fairness, this is speculation, however. I'm busy working on decks that beat Goblins specifically so I can avoid the mirror.

[umbowta]

While I am currently running the white splash for disenchant, the consideration of Flashfires in the board is making me lean toward the green splash for Naturalize. Keeping my own land(s) in play would seem to be good. Honestly, I am considering going back to the faster Goblin Sligh build. Speed might just be better than card advantage against the current field.

[TeenieBopper]

With many decks running multiple hate cards for goblins, and most of them being enchantments, I've been thinking about switching naturalize for tranquil domain.

Tranquil Domain
1G
Instant
Destroy all non-Aura enchantments.

The only enchantment hate card that this doesn't hit is.. uh... pacifism. But it kills humility, CoP: Red, RoP: Red, Reverence, Plague and whatever else you might need to kill. However, it doesn't destroy artifacts. I've been thinking about it, and the only artifact that I really fear is Damping Matrix. Sure, there's Vial and opposing Jitte's, but I also play Pithing Needle in the board.

Thoughts?

[LinkXwing]

Actually, as an instant that sounds like a damn good choice.

[Slay]

The only problem is that your matchup against Angel Stompy continues to be sucky. Disenchant actually gives you some kind of a chance.
-Slay

[B is for Big Job]

The only problem is that your matchup against Angel Stompy continues to be sucky. Disenchant actually gives you some kind of a chance.
-Slay
And who the hell still plays Angel Stompy?

[Slay]

People that know how to metagame?
-Slay

[midnightAce]

Slay brings up a good point, but so far, I haven't been able to produce a AS build that can go 50/50 against Landstill and still smashes Goblin consistently. (Sort of abandoned the deck and worked my ass off on Flame Vault.)

I know Landstill is not doing well against Goblins at the moment and GP is going to consist largely of Goblins with different colour splashes, but the point remains that Zvi ran Landstill in Worlds, so no matter how bad the deck, people will net deck it and people will play it. (Probably a reputation thing....) So whether or not AS is a good meta choice remains to be seen.

Tranquil Domain seems like a good choice, may be a even split of 2 Tranquil Domain and 2 Naturalize can give a pretty good balance handling both artifacts and enchantments.

[Bane of the Living]

I've been a big fan of goblins for 2 years now and constantly play it each large event I'm able. Right down to foodchain vintage. I have to say that the biggest strength this deck has it's consistancy. I largely endorse the mono r build over all color splashes. Some gobs play ports and sb needle to handle most minor problems till the team of green men we love win the game.

I think splashing gives the same benifits but not more. There are no off color goblins to slash for, thus your adding non tutorable, non synergistic cards to do the same job as many more aplicable answers. SB shard phoenix is not the answer to the mirror. Nor even the man with vial, as much as the one with a full slate of gempalms, a high count of shooters, and some arrangement of king,pyromancer,sparksmith.

The only thing in gobs should be is lands vials and gobs if your looking for the deck to do what it was meant to do. I don't see how siding in a swords for a silver knight is better than a pyromancer to stay more aggro than they can handle.

This site has alot of legacy coverage which is what makes me like it. But alot of the which version is better debacal really gets in the way of fine tuning it.
It's not preferance that determines which build you use. It's metagame, my metagame spidey sense is telling me to stay monored and support rishadin ports.

The only way for gobs to beat the hate thats waiting for it at philly is to maximize all card slots with AGGRO THREAT. You might have naturalize for moat against wombat, but you didnt have ports to keep them off the mana for wrath, wing shards, and renewed faith.

There's less than a week till philly, what built will you take!
Argue your points people!

[frogboy]

You might have naturalize for moat against wombat, but you didnt have ports to keep them off the mana for wrath, wing shards, and renewed faith.

Well, actually, most builds do. There's not much reason to not splash, given that Disenchant solves that whole "Engineered Plague wrecks you problem. No, King does not get it done.

[Zilla]

And who the hell still plays Angel Stompy?
People who want Mana Drains (http://mtgthesource.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1758), apparently.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Let's discuss Engineered Plague. With Black on the rise in Deadguy Ale and Tog builds, 4x Engineered Plague between the main and board is going to be on the rise. Patron of the Akki was Sonne's Grand Prix-winning answer to the card. While I personally think it's fundamentally awesome to win a tournament with Goblin Offering, after the top 2 we had some mild discussion the subject and a much better answer hit me like a Diamond bullet through my brain;

Gauntlet of Might (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=15065)

If you're too lazy to click on the link;

4
Red creatures get +1/+1.
Whenever a Mountain is tapped for mana, its controller adds R to his or her mana pool.

They trade 1-for-1 on Engineered Plagues. With even a single one out, they need 3 Engineered Plagues to shut down your real threats. And unlike other such answers, such as Goblin Goon or Clickslither, Gauntlet of Might has synergy with Goblin King in fighting Plagues. With 1 Goblin King and 1 Gauntlet of Might, your opponent needs all 4 Engineered Plagues on the board to take down Piledriver and Warchief. A second Goblin King at that point seals the game, shutting out your opponent's hate entirely.

[Sims]

I hadn't honestly considered it, but now that you do it does work as far as fighting Engineered Plague.... However, I'm not sure that it's better than a Naturalize-effect and/or Tranquil Domain. There are seemingly a few large drawbacks to the card:

The obvious "Not a Goblin" comment applies to this card, and you'd need to run it as a 3-4 of really to get the maximum effect out of it. That clutters up your sideboard a tiny bit.
It's a 4-mana Artifact. While 4 mana is relatively easy to come by, I would think that against Deadguy or DaT that you would be trying to be fairly relentless in your threats aswell as tapping down and being land light using your Wastelands and Ports to keep them away from off-color sources. This issue may be moot, however, as it'd be largely dependant upon which types of lands you draw.


There is also the point of what to replace with it in your sideboard, but that is likely up to personal oppinion were you to try running it as most sideboards are different depending upon the player. I feel the Naturalize-effect plan is simply stronger and more diverse against the field, as there isn't much beyond E.Plague packing decks that you'd bring this in for. It just seems too much of a narrow and dead card in most cases.

Edit: Also, although price should never be a factor in determining the optimal decklist; Gauntlets of Might aren't exactly the cheapest option available to players....If the player already has a set of Taigas or Plats for the deck, a cheap common option like Naturalize or Disenchant is much easier to attain than a 60ish (i think?) dollar card like GoM.



Edited By CorruptedAngel on 1132058751

[MoxSlaver]

If you are looking to go that way, I think that Goblin Caves may be the better option. The enchant land costs 3 instead of 4, gives all your goblins +2 on toughness, and is a lot easier to find and cheaper.

Edit: Cheapest Gauntlet I've found so far is Heavily Played and $85.

[Sims]

Precisely.... Goblin Caves would be a cheaper and more effective means of battling E.plague than Gauntlet, but being a local enchantment it still suffers the "2 for 1" suckiness.... Deadguy would Vindicate/Sinkhole that in a hearbeat.

I honestly don't feel pumping your creatures is a reliable way to survive Plague.... The cards that allow you to pump your toughness are relatively clunky and don't do it effectively. I may not have tested any of these (save King) but I feel strongly that a Disenchant effect is the way to go. I'd rather have it gone instead of sitting there waiting for my King/Caves/Gauntlet to get destroyed.

[MoxSlaver]

True, True...

That brings up one sticky issue... If your playing spash for either white or green, that works. But if your playing mono-red, that's another story all together. From what I can tell in my research so far, there is nothing that is in red that is an answer to black. So what we need is a way to remove black threats other than creatures from the board without splashing.

Don't get me wrong, if I have to splash, it's not a problem, I'm just trying to keep my build mono-red if possible.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Precisely.... Goblin Caves would be a cheaper and more effective means of battling E.plague than Gauntlet, but being a local enchantment it still suffers the "2 for 1" suckiness.... Deadguy would Vindicate/Sinkhole that in a hearbeat.

I honestly don't feel pumping your creatures is a reliable way to survive Plague.... The cards that allow you to pump your toughness are relatively clunky and don't do it effectively. I may not have tested any of these (save King) but I feel strongly that a Disenchant effect is the way to go. I'd rather have it gone instead of sitting there waiting for my King/Caves/Gauntlet to get destroyed.
Goblin Caves also doesn't solve the problem of letting your creatures do damage... at best it gives you a bunch of 0/1s 0/2s that will pump your Piledriver, but that's rather clunky.

In a mono-red build like Sonne's, though, Gauntlet seems a much better answer than Patron of the Akki.

[Artowis]

If you really want to beat opponents brains in and the Disenchant/naturalize board isn't enough to help. The other answer is to just run bigger Goblins. Goblin Goon and Goblin Mutant come to mind. Meanwhile Clickslither isn't even a Goblin and is actually ok in a normal game state. Even something like Fledgling Dragon out of the board to go 'rawr' and smash your opponent in a few turns is a viable option.

Gauntlet also seems decent, though slower and more vunerable than Plague itself is.

Basically E. Plague hoses Goblins very well and there isn't an easy solution to it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The ideal answer to E. Plague should work proactively, though. Naturalize has to wait for the Plague to turn up. Goblin Goon is a decent answer that beats, but has vulnerabilities and can't save the rest of your guys like Gauntlet can, although he can be tutored for.

[Mad Zur]

With 1 Goblin King and 1 Gauntlet of Might, your opponent needs all 4 Engineered Plagues on the board to take down Piledriver and Warchief.
He actually only needs three, because the King will only be a 3/3 itself.

[Evil Roopey]

I would just like to point out to everyone at the Frog that my most recent list is a total of 4 cards off of the winning list at the GP and I still believe that Pyromancer is a better metagame choice than Sharpshooter/Prospector. Just thought I'd rub it into your faces for flaming me. Maybe next time people will listen, but I doubt it.

On topic, Patron of the Akki is 10 times better than Gauntlet will ever be. He gets around multiple EP just by not being a Goblin but still has slight synergy with the deck. He is amazing. I am just sad I didn't think of it myself.

Roop

[kirdape3]

Patron of the Akki is what people wanted to play in Extended until it was conclusively demonstrated that Goblins is awful in that format.

Goon is probably fine as far as another answer goes, plus it's a giant threat to control decks as a 6/6 for 4 mana.

[Braves54321]

Goon is probably fine as far as another answer goes, plus it's a giant threat to control decks as a 6/6 for 4 mana.
That...and its an actual Goblin unlike Patron of the Akki, so you get the ringleader, matron, and warchief advantages as well.

[Evil Roopey]

I played Goon like 6 months or so ago, and I just think it solved the problem all to well. If they had double EP you were still shut out of the game, and it doesn't really help the mirror if you are already in the losing position. I think PotA is just a better solution, granted it does not synergize with the rest of the Goblins unless you draw it, but same with Disenchant or any other splash color answer.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The reason these solutions seem a fuckload more suboptimal than Gaunlet is that they all ask What can I do to make up for all the dead cards E. Plague gives me? whereas Gauntlet asks What can I do to make that E. Plague not matter?

Also, unlike Naturalize, it can be proactive. Even without an E. Plague to counter, it gives you the option of dealing an extra 4-5 damage the turn you drop it and just winning. Also unlike Naturalize, it can partially or fully counter a Pyroclasm, Hideous Laughter, Hail Storm, Infest, or Plague Spitter.

Also unlike Naturalize, a playset costs about 350$



Edited By TheInfamousBearAssasin on 1132202392

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I would just like to point out to everyone at the Frog that my most recent list is a total of 4 cards off of the winning list at the GP and I still believe that Pyromancer is a better metagame choice than Sharpshooter/Prospector. Just thought I'd rub it into your faces for flaming me. Maybe next time people will listen, but I doubt it.

On topic, Patron of the Akki is 10 times better than Gauntlet will ever be. He gets around multiple EP just by not being a Goblin but still has slight synergy with the deck. He is amazing. I am just sad I didn't think of it myself.

Roop
Should I point out that pretty much every Vial Goblins list is within 4-5 cards of the next, and those cards were actually pretty signifigant when discussing Sonne's list and your's? Tinkerer alone is huge, and that's 1 card.

And I agree that Patron is a fairly elegant solution.

[Lego]

There are no off color goblins to slash for, thus your adding non tutorable, non synergistic cards to do the same job as many more aplicable answers.
I just had to post to contest this statement (read this post in a joking manner, and don't get mad about it). One of the reasons that Boros Deck Wins is a competitor in the current Extended environment is formerly Mr. awesome-with-an-untapped-Plateau, currently also-awesome-with-an-untapped-Sacred-Foundry, "Really Good Synergy With Living Death and Lots of Mana" Goblin Legionnaire. He's my hero. Now I'm not saying we should all splash white to play him, I'm just saying that there *are* off color goblins to splash for :) (or at least one)

[Evil Roopey]

I would just like to point out to everyone at the Frog that my most recent list is a total of 4 cards off of the winning list at the GP and I still believe that Pyromancer is a better metagame choice than Sharpshooter/Prospector. Just thought I'd rub it into your faces for flaming me. Maybe next time people will listen, but I doubt it.

On topic, Patron of the Akki is 10 times better than Gauntlet will ever be. He gets around multiple EP just by not being a Goblin but still has slight synergy with the deck. He is amazing. I am just sad I didn't think of it myself.

Roop
Should I point out that pretty much every Vial Goblins list is within 4-5 cards of the next, and those cards were actually pretty signifigant when discussing Sonne's list and your's? Tinkerer alone is huge, and that's 1 card.

And I agree that Patron is a fairly elegant solution.
I would also like to point out that the only card he has over my deck is Tinkerer, which he cut Kiki for, which I think is the wrong choice. I also already stated that I believe that the 2 Pyromancers in my build are strictly better in the current meta than SS/Prospector. Also he went below 15 red mana sources which I also disagree with.

Also, most current goblin list are around 7-8 cards off of Sonne's actually.

Roop

[calosso]

Why does it matter how many cards were your list from sonne or for that mater anyone else's.

Also his build of goblins seems to be sub-optimal the only reason he did well was because he is a pro player.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

"Optimal" builds aren't always optimal in a given meta-game. A lot of his choices may seem weird in a vacuum, but made sense at the time.

[Zuriya]

Sorry for not reading the whole thread , but what would be better:
Gauntlet of Might or Dralnu's Crusade. Or would you rather add Shared Triumph ?

[MoxSlaver]

Shared Triumph...

Now there's a thought. It already fits with the more competitive color for splashing. Comes down turn 2 if you get it on opening draw, and grants you +1/+1...

Dralnu's Crusade, while good also has to make me wonder. It comes down a turn slower, requires another color source, and gives my goblins a second color. Both colors have merit and would allow one to work around pro-red creatures, but I still can't quite see me splashing black over white for this card. Don't know, but worth testing maybe.

[midnightAce]

I was almost going to suggest Illumination, but that's just retarded.

I think the biggest question should be, to effectively fight E.Plague, should the fighting be coming from creatures or non-creatures? or specifically, Goblin or non-Goblin cards? A consensus on that is very important.

[Zilla]

What Goblins are there that answer Plague? Goblin King and Goblin Goon are the only ones that spring immediately to mind, and Goblin Goon seems questionable given its drawback. Ideally, you want an answer to double Plague, because that what wins games against you anyway. What deck running black isn't going to have more creatures than you if they've resolved double Plague? Just a thought.

As for Goblin King, I think it's been fairly well established that it's not an effective answer to Plague. I know that in my testing it was roughly 90% ineffactive as a consistent answer to the problem.

Are there any Goblins I'm missing? Because if not, the answer is going to have to be a non-Goblin. There are all sorts of answers, including Disenchant, Gauntlet of Might, Patron of the Akki, Fledgling Dragon, Dralnu's Crusade, and Shared Triumph.

Honestly, I think Shared Triumph is one of the most promising non-Goblin answers. It does what Gauntlet of Might does, is on color for the most common splash, is an enchantment rather than an artifact (for which there is arguably less hate in the metagame), costs 2 less to cast, and doesn't cost like 5 bajillion dollars. In the end though, testing should probably be done with all of them.