[DTB] Vial Goblins

[calosso]

Shared Triumph...

Now there's a thought. It already fits with the more competitive color for splashing. Comes down turn 2 if you get it on opening draw, and grants you +1/+1...

Dralnu's Crusade, while good also has to make me wonder. It comes down a turn slower, requires another color source, and gives my goblins a second color. Both colors have merit and would allow one to work around pro-red creatures, but I still can't quite see me splashing black over white for this card. Don't know, but worth testing maybe.
The goblins don't gain a second color they become black creatures there was a ruling about this at GP philly. About silver knight being able to live with it's pro red ability.

[Evil Roopey]

I think that the correct answer is in the creatures such as Patron or Fledgling Dragon in the monored decks. It would make sense that if you are running white or green to run cards such as Naturalize or Disenchant, because they are answers they themselves cannot be answered without a counterspell, and if they have the counterspell then they will counter any other answer anyways.

What I am trying to say is that you want the least vulnerable answer you can find, which would be the good old instants. Only the UB decks will be able to answer them. But decks like Pikula's or others of any kind will be able to answer cards such as S. Triumph and Gauntlet.

Just my 2 cents.

Roop

[MoxSlaver]

Here's an idea, I don't know how much merit it might have or whether it would work, but is there a way with goblins to build in an answer through resource denial. Like stone rain? I know that most land destruction spells cost more then E. Plague, but is there another way to come at it in this direction from using goblins or some other spell or some such?

[kirdape3]

The reason these solutions seem a fuckload more suboptimal than Gaunlet is that they all ask What can I do to make up for all the dead cards E. Plague gives me? whereas Gauntlet asks What can I do to make that E. Plague not matter?

Also, unlike Naturalize, it can be proactive. Even without an E. Plague to counter, it gives you the option of dealing an extra 4-5 damage the turn you drop it and just winning. Also unlike Naturalize, it can partially or fully counter a Pyroclasm, Hideous Laughter, Hail Storm, Infest, or Plague Spitter.

Also unlike Naturalize, a playset costs about 350$

The reason that I suggested Patron is that it is useful in multiple matchups, not just the Engineered Plague one. I'd much rather have Patron of the Akki against random bad aggro decks (or even random very good ones) than I would Gauntlet of Might. Patron's on the average cheaper (with Goblin Offering, it's going to cost you anywhere from 3 to 5 mana at instant speed), it provides a giant bonus to your creatures in play (those that live long enough), and comes attached to a 5/5 non-Plagueable body.

Gauntlet's a fine way to get around Engineered Plague, but if I have the option of getting something that handles that problem even 90% as well plus has better utility in other matchups, I've got to take that something.

[Zilla]

The reason that I suggested Patron is that it is useful in multiple matchups, not just the Engineered Plague one. I'd much rather have Patron of the Akki against random bad aggro decks (or even random very good ones) than I would Gauntlet of Might.
Out of curiosity, what decks are we talking about here that Goblins even needs a sideboard to beat? And in those matchups, how often am I going to want to board in a non-goblin creature to improve that matchup? This isn't a rhetorical question, but honestly, nothing's coming to mind.

As for a comparison to Gauntlet of Might, let's pretend we're talking about a white build running Shared Triumph instead, since it's more cost efficient. Is it really correct to call a card that gives all your Goblins +1/+1 narrow? Couldn't it be said to improve matchups where your opponent has damage-based mass/reusable removal, such as Pyroclasm, Cursed Scroll, and Lightning Rift by making these answers infinitely less effective against you, while at the same time totally nullifying E. Plague? Wouldn't it also be logical to observe that the aforementioned cards are present in decks which are actually difficult matchups for you, as opposed to random bad aggro?

[kirdape3]

I don't know, I'd be more afraid of a deck like anything in Extended currently, of which all of them take on Goblins pretty well and bend them over, or say Pikula's deck (whose outs to a resolved Patron aren't that many) than I would most of the current format. It's also disgusting in the mirror match, something that you should be boarding for.

[Zilla]

Some things I agree with, some I don't. I agree you want to be boarding for the mirror, and I agree Patron gets the nod over Triumph... although to be honest I'm not sure that either would be my choice for mirror tech specifically. I'd prefer something more along the lines of more Sharpshooters, Sparksmiths or even Shard Phoenix for the mirror. But that's neither here nor there. I agree on this point.

As for Deadguy, the deck has fewer outs to Triumph than it does to Patron. Against Patron, it has 4x Vindicate and 4x Swords from the board (under the assumption we're talking about how Pikula said he would build his sideboard today). Against Triumph, the deck only has 4 Vindicates because it doesn't run any Disenchant in the board. Triumph is a direct answer to E. Plague, which is the deck's biggest threat against you. Furthermore, it makes Darkblast suck against you, which is another one of the deck's answers to Goblins. Further still, it makes Shade the only viable chump blocker in the deck if they want to trade with you. Further still, it speeds up your clock against the deck. Finally, at 2cc, it's going to hit the board earlier than Patron ever will, making it less likely to be Hymned or Verdicted out of your hand. One could theoretically argue that it can be Duressed away, but honestly, what competent player is going to keep Duress in for game 2 against Goblins? I think Triumph has the clear advantage in this matchup.

As for Extended matchups, you'd have to be more specific for me to respond, really, but I think most Extended options are overhyped. You've got Ravager Affinity which, despite much argument to the contrary, I feel is barely viable. You've got the Rock which pretty much everyone feels is unviable. You've got RDW and BDW which can steal wins, but aren't exactly real metagame concerns at the moment. You've got Dredge Tog, which no one has presented an optimized list for in this format, and which uses E. Plague as one of its primary leverages to win this match, which brings us back to Patron and Triumph. Against Dredge Tog, I think I'd rather have Triumph because Tog isn't likely to let you live long enough to let Patron do its job. And Patron's arguably harder to sneak under a counterwall.

Anyway, these are just observations based mostly on theory. I'm not saying either is definitely better than the other, but aside from the benefit to the mirror, Patron seems less impressive than Triumph in general.

[MoxSlaver]

I think there are a couple of things to consider with regards to patron. First being his lack of synergy with Gobbos. Personally if I'm going to add another creature to my deck, I want that creature to be a goblin of some sort. If I'm in a situation during a game where I need him, I want to be able to get him with matron or ringleader, as opposed to being lucky enough to draw into him during the game. Secondly I have to wonder if he is really all that much better than Pyromancer? Yes, he stays on the board once he resolves, but there is the hitch, resolving him if I've drawn him.

I've been looking over Tom Smart's Rw Goblins from Philly, and I'm leaning more and more towards splashing white. So much so I'm fixing to go and get my play set of Triumph's and rebuild my goblin deck using Smart's as a rough guideline to follow. Like Godzilla, I'm leaning more towards Triumph being the best answer for E. Plague, as well as Truimph adds to the overall strength of the deck if your running a 3 or 4 of. Although I'm still not sold that these are the best answers to be found.

[Sims]

I think there are a couple of things to consider with regards to patron. First being his lack of synergy with Gobbos. Personally if I'm going to add another creature to my deck, I want that creature to be a goblin of some sort. If I'm in a situation during a game where I need him, I want to be able to get him with matron or ringleader, as opposed to being lucky enough to draw into him during the game. Secondly I have to wonder if he is really all that much better than Pyromancer? Yes, he stays on the board once he resolves, but there is the hitch, resolving him if I've drawn him.
Key notes to this.... People need to fully realize that unless they print, at some point during the rest of Rav Block (I figure that's where something like this would be most likely), a R/W Goblin that has a "<cost>, Sacrifice:" type ability that is a Destroy Target Enchantment effect..... Then there will never be a Goblin answer to E.Plague.

Also, Is he really that much better than Pyromancer? Perhaps, but they really fill two different niche roles in the deck.... the Patron gives you a fat beater at a potential discount that pumps your attackers every turn and doesn't get smaller with E.Plague naming Goblins. That's really good... Pyromancer is cheaper, gives a bigger attack bonus for an Alpha Strike while speeding up combo matches, and provides a tutorable Wrath in the mirror.. That's really good, too.... However the Pyromancer does nothing against 2x Plague, where the Patron does (despite costing more mana to actually cast him.)

Ultimately it's a trade off, none of the Goblin answers to Plague really work worth a damn, so you have to either find non-Goblin answers (Fledgling Dragon and Patron being probably two of the best, particularly in mono-Red) or answers that come in your splash colors like Triumph, Disenchant/Seal, Naturalize, or Tranq. Domain.

[MoxSlaver]

@Corrupted

Okay, I agree with what you say about the differences between Patron and Pyro. And until I get to play with Patron and see how he affects the field, especially underneath E. Plague, I can't for sure say which is better.

For the time being I'm trying out splashing white for Triumph, so far so good although one slight issue...
I have yet to see a deck running black using E. Plague where I play. There are some larger tournies coming up and given the chance to attend them, I'll see what gets played there and how things play out. Or wait until my local scene starts running E. Plague. :)

[Marco]

I've been playing Vial Goblins with a white splash (four Disenchants in my sideboard) for a long time. I wasn't a fan of Patron of the Akki at first, but I have to admit I'm beginning to like the card. For those who are looking for an answer to Engineered Plague for their mono-red Vial Goblins decks, how about Brass Herald (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?set=Apocalypse&name=brass_herald#)? It is expensive, but no more expensive than Patron of the Akki without the Goblin offering. If Goblin Ringleader is arguably the most broken Goblin in Vial Goblins, who wouldn't want four more of them? They can be Vialed out (if you get your Vial to six charge counters), and they have the bonus of nullifying one Engineered Plague for each of them in play. (Thank God Mana Drain is not in the format.)

[Zilla]

Brass Herald has the same problem that Goblin King does only moreso: double Plague or Pyroclasm wipes him out, and consequently the rest of your board as soon as his pump effect wears off. At least one King will pump another, so having two Kings in play will nullify double Plague or Pyroclasm.

That's one of the reasons why Shared Triumph is so appealing: the fact that it's not a creature means it's not going to get hit by the hate you're trying to answer.

[Sims]

Brass Herald has the same problem that Goblin King does only moreso: double Plague or Pyroclasm wipes him out, and consequently the rest of your board as soon as his pump effect wears off. At least one King will pump another, so having two Kings in play will nullify double Plague or Pyroclasm.

That's one of the reasons why Shared Triumph is so appealing: the fact that it's not a creature means it's not going to get hit by the hate you're trying to answer.
To be fair, Herald itself doesn't get owned by the Double Plague, only the x/1 Goblins that he is pumping do. Pyroclasm, Infest/Mutilate, and the rest of the 2 dmg or -x/-2 shit will still hit him and wipe your board at the same time, but he does get around the problem of needing 2x Kings to stop Double Plague. He may cost 2 mana more but he's a Shared Triumph attached to a Ringleader. He may be worth atleast a small amount of testing, no?

Edit for a little clarity: It's worth a bit of testing, i.m.o, because it can answer the problem of Plague (x/2 goblins will survive unless there is 3 Plagues on the board), even if only while you dig for the win or another answer, while replenishing your hand. Because it's technically a Ringleader, it's not a disadvantage to play one instead of your Ringleader... You neutralize one plague while refilling your hand. That seems kinda good to me.



Edited By CorruptedAngel on 1132576505

[vanele]

If we are finding the need to look to 6 mana artifact creatures wouldn't it be simpler to use an old favorite called coat of arms? Chances are its going to give ur gobbos at least +1/+1 and can be a win condition if nessary.

[Marco]

Brass Herald has the same problem that Goblin King does only moreso: double Plague or Pyroclasm wipes him out, and consequently the rest of your board as soon as his pump effect wears off. At least one King will pump another, so having two Kings in play will nullify double Plague or Pyroclasm.

That's one of the reasons why Shared Triumph is so appealing: the fact that it's not a creature means it's not going to get hit by the hate you're trying to answer.
I don't see how double Plague wipes out Brass Herald. Who in their right mind would name Golem on both Plagues against a Goblin deck?! And what decks pack both Plague and Pyroclasm?

[calosso]

Possibly Darth Maul.

:p

[Seedling]

My metagame is quite small, most 1.5 tournaments consist of about 8-12 players.

The most prevailent deck is aggro by any means, usually 3-4 Vial Goblins, 2-3 something aggro (usually R/G Beats), 1-2 Survival Advantage/Welder Survival, 1-2 MWC and the rest are usually rogue decks, sucky ones. :) I still haven't seen a single Solidarity deck (nobody has resets), a Landstill or even an Enchantress deck. It requires the deck to adapt to its environment, of course.

My current Vial Goblins decklist is as follows:

Lands:
16 Mountain
4 Wasteland

Spells:
4 Aether Vial
2 Cursed Scroll

Creatures:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Goblin King

Sideboard:
4 Goblin Pyromancer
4 Flaring Pain
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Goblin Vandal
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Some explanations and thoughts:

Lands:
I have found fetches to be very, VERY annoying in the mirror or with an aggro matchup. It usually depends on those few life points, where it matters. I also have no splash colors. I haven't tried Rishadan Ports yet, but I believe they will twist my colored mana to a bad situation. Maybe they are good, but are they good against aggro?

Cursed Scroll:
Against aggro and mirror. I have found this to be a LOT better than Umezawa's Jitte, especially in the mirror. It can also force damage through in stalls. An extra touch is the fact that it's nice against MBC. :D But I don't know, maybe two Clickslithers would be better?

Goblin Sharpshooter:
Yes, there's three of 'em and one in the SB, but the reason is again the number of other Goblin decks and aggro. Of course, they're sided out against other matchups.

Sideboard:

Goblin Pyromancer:
When your opponent isn't packing a lot of creatures, this will bring 'em hell. It's not impossible to side in a few, even if he is.

Flaring Pain:
This is one I'm not so sure about. It helps against MWC (which is a NIGHTMARE matchup), but its other uses are quite limited in my meta.

Goblin Vandal:
This deck hasn't any answers to artifacts, so this might be it. It's also tutorable.

Pyrostatic Pillar:
Against control. This one is debatable, too.

Any thoughts or ideas to improve my deck? Remember, it's tuned against mirrors and other aggro decks.

[calosso]

You should run ports in the deck they help all your bad match-ups also I wouldn't run vandal run Goblin Tinkerer it is quite better. Also cursed scroll really isn't that good. Against mono white you can play Pithing needle, Anarchy, or flashfire but do not run Flaring pain. Also cut a sharpshooter for 1 main deck Pyromancer. Tutorable wrath seems good.

[Noman Peopled]

I hate to say this, but perhaps going back to Goblin Sligh is really the answer. Or at least, make the deck more sligh-ish. I'd say that a good instant finisher is all you need to beat Plague - if Goblins could be relied on dealing sufficient damage before Plague comes down. One of the problems being going second, another one Dark Ritual. None of the current finishers are strong enough to do this to my content.
Shared Fate, Legionnaires, and some finishers would help greatly. Of course, this may well weaken the deck in other matchups. Like Goblins, for instance ... though Legionnaires are great in taking out two attacking Piledrivers. Again, I can't think of a good enough finisher for this to matter, especially against the problem we're trying to solve.

Also, why Disenchant over Seal of Cleansing? Seems to me having to keep mana open is a bit of a problem - which, I just realize, doesn't matter much except against 'still. Forget it then ...


//Edit: Haunting Misery comes to mind, maybe cause its quarter to freakin' four in the Legacy-deprived hole where I live. Still, it would be using Plague as an enabler which is at the very least humiliating. Tog can counter, though. Yet Tog can counter any answer ... 'xcept this has an additional cost so you'd want two at the most. Not mentioning the difficult mana cost.
Hmm. L Death will not help much, though Therapy could be huge. Does nothing against topdecks, though. Damn, tough nut to crack.
//Again, if this is crap, attribute it to the hour.
I tried Survival Goblins once. If you do it (and I advise not to), play at least two Squees and a Genesis (doesn't hurt Squee's a Goblin :) ). This could get Kings and Goons or other Goblin answers (or other creatures like Big Akki) at a fast rate. (But again, weaken other matchups.)

[Marco]

People need to fully realize that unless they print, at some point during the rest of Rav Block (I figure that's where something like this would be most likely), a R/W Goblin that has a "<cost>, Sacrifice:" type ability that is a Destroy Target Enchantment effect..... Then there will never be a Goblin answer to E.Plague.
It's too bad Conspiracy (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?set=MercadianMasques&name=conspiracy#) isn't cheaper, like 1B. That way Goblin decks could tutor for white creatures like Monk Realist (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?set=UrzasSaga&name=monk_realist#) and Reliquary Monk (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?set=UrzasDestiny&name=reliquary_monk#) to deal with Engineered Plague. Of course, three colour decks are even more vulnerable to mana denial strategies. (Rishadan Port, Wasteland, etc.)

[Bargoth]

It's obviously not a goblin, which sucks, but since enchantments like Engineered Plauge are your major worries, maybe using Kami of Ancient Law wouldn't be the worst idea. I'm far from sold that it would be better than Disenchant or Seal of Cleansing. I wouldn't solve opposing Vials or Pithing Needles, or Humility (now that I think of it)... Maybe it isnt worth concidering... but it would atleast be attaching a 2/2 body to your Plauge solution.

[dontbiteitholmes]

This thread needs a clean-up bad... Page one is like a list with chrome mox and such oh my... and then there's like 20 pages of BS chatter.
Can someone update the current list for this with all the ports and jim-jank or whatever the hell people are running in it these days so I can make sure my deck is golden on bitch-smacking it before I step in a tourney and get housed...

[Evil Roopey]

I updated my list in the first post, but thats the best I can do. I thought someone was working on a new thread like 2 months ago, but it hasn't ever happened. I don't know whats going on.

Roop

[Roberto Clemente]

I updated my list in the first post, but thats the best I can do. I thought someone was working on a new thread like 2 months ago, but it hasn't ever happened. I don't know whats going on.

Roop
Is your list typed out correctly? I count 64 cards.

[AnwarA101]

I updated my list in the first post, but thats the best I can do. I thought someone was working on a new thread like 2 months ago, but it hasn't ever happened. I don't know whats going on.

Roop
Is your list typed out correctly? I count 64 cards.
He forgot to cut Skirk Propector from the list. It was in the original , but is not being played in the deck anymore.

[SpencerForHire]

I don't like that list cut 2 gang-bangs for a sharpshooter, and a king, cut a port for a mountain then the deck starts to look impressive.
On the lighter hand I have tested changes much like these and I have some opinions about the deck.

I don't like Goblin King in this deck. King really only helps versus Engineered Plague and supposedly the Goblin mirror.
I really don't like King in the mirror match any more because it always seems to just wreck you if you don't get the kill the second you drop king. Don't get me wrong sometimes it will win games but an equal bit of the time you are going to run into Incinerations and other denial that is going to wreck your swing for the kill. With that initial king swing wrecked your going to just plain lose because you put everything into winning that turn (via king) and your going to find a whole other side of the table full of unblockable little red men coming straight to your skull.

The main reason people seem to justify King though is because of the maindeck and sideboard plagues that everyone seem to be running. The error in the logic of King to counteract this is the fact that most people have a plan to get 2 Plagues out which destroys your anti-plague technology and make king pointless. I would rather just have the Siege-Gang Commander or a Pyromancer to win the game than stall the E-Plague that has been dropped.

[frogboy]

A reminder to all users that flaming and undeveloped posting in the LMF will not be tolerated and merits swift warning which can soon escalate to banning.

[Ridiculous Hat]

The main reason people seem to justify King though is because of the maindeck and sideboard plagues that everyone seem to be running. The error in the logic of King to counteract this is the fact that most people have a plan to get 2 Plagues out which destroys your anti-plague technology and make king pointless. I would rather just have the Siege-Gang Commander or a Pyromancer to win the game than stall the E-Plague that has been dropped.
Most people just board in 4 plagues and hope to draw them, I'd think. Pikula's deck has no way to guarantee multiple plagues-- and if necessary you can tutor up multiple kings, which all pump each other etc etc.

[Zilla]

Most people just board in 4 plagues and hope to draw them, I'd think. Pikula's deck has no way to guarantee multiple plagues-- and if necessary you can tutor up multiple kings, which all pump each other etc etc.
Many decks running Plague do have a way to find multiples, such as GAT and Dredge Tog, however. Also, Deadguy supplements its Plagues with Darkblast, which = combo. The main thing is that the multiple King strategy has been tested and proven to be ultimately ineffective against most strategies using Plague against it. Because King is itself a creature (and a Goblin at that), it is often not overly difficult for the opponent to pick apart the multiple King strategy by removing the first King before you get a second into play.

[Ridiculous Hat]

Most people just board in 4 plagues and hope to draw them, I'd think. Pikula's deck has no way to guarantee multiple plagues-- and if necessary you can tutor up multiple kings, which all pump each other etc etc.
Many decks running Plague do have a way to find multiples, such as GAT and Dredge Tog, however. Also, Deadguy supplements its Plagues with Darkblast, which = combo. The main thing is that the multiple King strategy has been tested and proven to be ultimately ineffective against most strategies using Plague against it. Because King is itself a creature (and a Goblin at that), it is often not overly difficult for the opponent to pick apart the multiple King strategy by removing the first King before you get a second into play.
I don't doubt that King proves ineffectual over time, I was just doubting the validity of his statement in reference to multiple plagues. Also, right now I don't believe that GAT is actually a competetive deck, but that's besides the point.

An answer that was frequently used in extended was Dralnu's Crusade, which also provides an answer to Cop/Rop: Red, Sphere of Law, and blue blast-- well, I suppose they just blue blast the crusade, but it's better than nothing. While the current builds of goblins may not run black, is this a potentially good answer to the plague problem?

[Zilla]

With the exception of answering CoP:Red, (which I don't consider to be much of a metagame concern), Dralnu's Crusade is probably worse than Shared Triumph, since it hits the table faster and is in a more commonly splashed color. If CoP:Red is a huge issue then Dralnu's Crusade might be the better choice.

[MoxSlaver]

Personally, I lean towards not worrying about E. Plague. For the most part most people will only be able to get 1 Plague into play before I have the opportunity to put lethal damage on the stack. While Plague does slow down or eliminate some stragedies with Goblins, it doesn't seem to me like it is wrecking Goblins right now. If my meta becomes flooded with Black based decks I might change my mind but right now it's not all that much of an issue.

[SpencerForHire]

Back on subject ...
I really like Anarchy in Goblins. It provides a lot more help than I originally thought until I went to my GPT. Anarchy stops random losses to white weenie, it kills COP: Red, and stops many more threats that would otherwise heavily dampen your chances of winning. (Humility, etc)

Anarchy is just plainly, a strong card to run in any of the goblin hate matches.

[Marco]

I think my list is 2-4 cards off of most people's list (those that splash white anyway), and you've been doing this thread for 27 pages, so I don't know how much information or discussion I can add that hasn't already been said.

This is my current list:

4 Aether Vial

4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Pyromancer
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Mogg Fanatic
1 Siege-Gang Commander

3 Bloodstained Mire
6 Mountain
4 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Disenchant
4 Swords To Plowshares

Pretty standard except for the Swords to Plowshares, I think (which may not be necessary). I probably have a couple more lands than most, too.

I decided to go with 24 lands in my build because, a) I'd rather be mana flooded than mana screwed, b) More decks are packing land destruction/mana denial (i.e., Chris Pikula's deck), c) I am running 8 colourless mana sources (4 Rishadan Port, 4 Wasteland), and d) I lost to a mono-red Vial Goblins deck at a GPT due to mana issues (and I don't think he had Rishadan Ports or Wastelands).

As for Anarchy, I really like the card. And my sideboard for the aforementioned GPT was:

3 Anarchy
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Disenchant
4 Swords To Plowshares

But, I found that, even with a large amount of (often maindeck) white hate cards (like Reverence) I played against, I was still able to win game one and game two off the back of 4 Disenchant. Anarchy was usually overkill (and sat in my hand) and I wanted to devote more sideboard slots to aggro and the mirror match (enter Pyrokinesis, an old favourite of mine that would have turned that match I lost to mono-red Vial Goblins right around).

Also, multiple Disenchant helped me get rid of an Aether Flash with counterspell back up against a U/R control deck.

Posts merged---Frogboy

[SpencerForHire]

Well Anarchy is a must have for those of us that are running mono-red. I admit splashing a color is nice and I do run green splash on occasion but it simply seems better with so much non-basic hate to run pure red.

[Marco]

Are you running Pithing Needle in your sideboard? Or is that a "duh" question? (If you can get your hands on Pithing Needles that is...)

I do like how mono-red can run Price of Progress in the sideboard. It seems like a really good damage source.

[SpencerForHire]

Are you running Pithing Needle in your sideboard? Or is that a "duh" question? (If you can get your hands on Pithing Needles that is...)

I do like how mono-red can run Price of Progress in the sideboard. It seems like a really good damage source.
That is most definately a duh question. :P But that is quite alright, yes I run 3-4 pithing needles depending on what I will be expecting.

PoP like overkill on the non-basic land hate. Mostly because it isn't a goblin. :)

[kirdape3]

I'm confused as to why there are still only singletons of Siege-Gang Commander in these decks. It's your best drop off of a Goblin Lackey, it's the best creature in the mirror and allows you to more reliably shoot someone out of the game after the ground stalls or they drop something random like Moat.

I'd be cutting Pyromancer for sure for one, and possibly Kiki-Jiki for the other. Pyromancer isn't even as good as Siege-Gang is in the mirror, and Kiki-Jiki is more explosive but less good on his own.

[Marco]

We all know Kiki-Jiki is sick when dropped early off a Lackey, and Goblin Pyromancer is my (main deck) mirror-match card, but overall I would tend to agree with your assessment of Siege-Gang Commander, and will probably drop Kiki-Jiki and Goblin Pyromancer and replace them with two more Siege-Gang Commanders (which may, in fact, be better than Goblin Pyromancer in the mirror-match).

It's too bad Skirk Prospector doesn't quite make the cut, as he is such an enabler of the "shoot someone out of the game" strategy with Siege-Gang Commander and has synergy with Goblin Sharpshooter as well. There have been many times that I would rather play Skirk Prospector over Mogg Fanatic (as good as Mogg Fanatic is).

What are people's thoughts on Swords to Plowshares in the sideboard of white-splash Goblin decks? Is it necessary? The Reanimator decks never really panned out, and Tog isn't quite a contender... (at least in Legacy...)

[SpencerForHire]

I tend to like 2x Siege-gange Commander because I don't want to be hard casting them too often but it is a powerful card individually to shoot through a lackey. Two just seems to work really well and give it the explosiveness the right percent of the time that I need.

[Sims]

I tend to like 2x Siege-gange Commander because I don't want to be hard casting them too often but it is a powerful card individually to shoot through a lackey. Two just seems to work really well and give it the explosiveness the right percent of the time that I need.
My build runs 3x, personally. The Gang-bang is just that damn good. Plus it really makes me smile to hear my opponents cry "Omfg h4x" when they think I only run 1 in the deck like most other Goblin lists.

[umbowta]

Sorry to interrupt all this Kiki/Pyromancer VS SGC talk, but I'm going to do it anyway. Here is an excerpt from Aaron Forsythe's "Cards are for Playing, not for Banning" article.

The real questions arise with Legacy. The format's coming-out party—Grand Prix Philly—was a smashing success, with a nice turnout, a relatively diverse field, and a Top 8 full of surprises. But there are problems lurking. Goblins look dominant, due in no small part to two cards that have proven themselves to be ban-worthy in the past—Goblin Lackey and Aether Vial. When there are maindeck Engineered Plagues and Rune of Protection: Reds in the Top 8, we have to question just how healthy the format is. And when the very deck that all this hate was aimed at still manages to win the tournament, we really need to take a step back.

I believe that most of us know already that Goblin Lackey is the little green man who happens to be directly responsible for the insanely fast starts of Vial Gobs. Whenever players talk about playing against this deck, this first question which arises is, "What do you do about a first turn Lackey?" Vial, on the other hand, is good, but not too difficult to deal with. There isn't a single viable deck, that I can think of, that cannot answer Vial in a reasonable time frame. The problem arises when the reasonable time frame I mentioned is removed by broken Lackey starts, which doesn't happen all the time.

While I believe that a very stong aggro deck is a necessary evil in the grand scheme of things, there exists the possibility that WotC may remove Lackey, Vial, or both from the Legacy card pool sometime in the future. Will gobbos survive as the dominant aggro deck without one or both of those cards?


I personally believe that maindeck RoP/CoP red are aimed at Sligh variants, Burn, and Gobbos...not just Gobbos. Likewise, maindeck E-Plagues are aimed at Tribal decks in general (with emphasis on gobbos). However, when gobbos are making it through the gauntlet, maindeck hate like that might as well be the Pointy Finger of Doom.

[EDIT] I don't want to know what, or if, you think bannings will happen. I don't care one way or the other, aside from maximizing my trade value in the long run. I think the deck can survive the loss of Lackey, but its power will be taken down a notch. [endEDIT]

[My Name Is Scott]

Likewise, maindeck E-Plagues are aimed at Tribal decks in general
Yeah, not being able to play darwin's revenge is what's really hurting this format. :p I think it would be alot more interesting if they banned piledriver, it would take out the "crazy explosive win" factor while keeping an aggro deck in the format, and keeping whatever extended players are playing.
edit: I was completely wrong about that... Ringleader=more banable.

[Marco]

What are people's thoughts on Swords to Plowshares in the sideboard of white-splash Goblin decks? Is it necessary? The Reanimator decks never really panned out, and Tog isn't quite a contender... (at least in Legacy...)
Yeah, so I'm trying to start a discussion, but no one is discussing. Has this been addressed in the thread already?

[Sims]

edit: I was completely wrong about that... Ringleader=more banable.
That would totally neuter the deck.....

If you ban Lackey; the deck still can have strong starts and a great late game. Suffers and weakens the control match due to lack of uncounterable threats in the early game.

If you ban Vial; The deck can still have really explosive starts and a decent late game. Suffers and weakens the control match due to lack of uncounterable threats (particularly Ringleader) in the late game.

If you ban Ringleader; The deck CAN have explosive starts and it MIGHT have a decent late game due to Vial, however, you roll to any mass removal that hits more than 2-3 creatures (assuming you overextend or they suprise you with something like Wing Shards that you didn't know they had) and you roll to Wombat worse than before. They can still wax off your Lackeys and Vials forcing you to pay full cost for threats, and you lack Ringleader to recover in decnet time after a WoG/WingShards.


You want to make the deck less powerful, ban Ringleader. For the record, I still feel the deck is fine and that the format is still catching up to the deck. But it seems obvious 90% of the people playing the format + the DCI doesn't agree with me.



Edited By CorruptedAngel on 1133891483

[Evil Roopey]

That's only because of the lack of innovation. People think that now because they have T8 decklist from a major tournament that that's that. Hopefully people will wake up and just start building good decks.

Roop

[umbowta]

I still feel the deck is fine and that the format is still catching up to the deck.I happen to agree with you on that.


Quote (Marco @ Dec. 03 2005,11:51)
What are people's thoughts on Swords to Plowshares in the sideboard of white-splash Goblin decks? Is it necessary? The Reanimator decks never really panned out, and Tog isn't quite a contender... (at least in Legacy...)

Yeah, so I'm trying to start a discussion, but no one is discussing. Has this been addressed in the thread already? Sorry about that. Yes, It has been previously discussed. However, it really comes down to what decks you are playing against. You really can't netdeck a sideboard and expect it to cover everything. If you are playing the w/splash build, StP is a fine sideboard option if you are losing matches to Fatties you can't deal with otherwise. If you're going into an environment blind, StP is fine, but it isn't an auto include for everyones local.

[MoxSlaver]

Quote

I still feel the deck is fine and that the format is still catching up to the deck.
I happen to agree with you on that.


I readily agree with this and feel this is the right answer to the issue. Legacy has a deep enough card pool that it can deal with goblins, and I feel the GP Philly showed that. Just because everyone and their dog decided to play goblins instead of taking the time to develope something to beat goblins just proves what everyone already knows, that most people netdeck and play hoping to win like the pros.

Personally I feel that Goblins is really healthy for the enviroment. It is forcing people to think outside the norm in deck building which is good. Pikula's deck, while not original, is an example of this. So I say leave things be and let the format develope on it's own. If after a year or two decks can't be built to consistently keep up with Goblins clock, then so be it, ban something then. Right now, let the players deal with it and learn to play or get out.

[Marco]

Sorry about that. Yes, It has been previously discussed. However, it really comes down to what decks you are playing against. You really can't netdeck a sideboard and expect it to cover everything. If you are playing the w/splash build, StP is a fine sideboard option if you are losing matches to Fatties you can't deal with otherwise. If you're going into an environment blind, StP is fine, but it isn't an auto include for everyones local.
Well said, thank you.

What about Tormod's Crypt? What are people's thoughts on it?

[calosso]

I personally run Phyrexian Furnace over Crypt just because it can cantrip and it is also is not a one shot like crypt is.

They are decent against gro to keep them of threshold.

[SpencerForHire]

It almost seems necessary to run 4 Crypt or 4 Furnace against Threshold. You just need to keep them off of your back long enough to get the board stable. They can be a real issue early on with spot removal.
Once stabilized you have to win fast or you are going to lose to Pyroclasm/Crusade. The real trick with Goblins is keeping them from getting to 4 mana with white or just outright winning ASAP if your facing the red splash, a difficult match but not impossible. Vial helps here alot before they drop a needle.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I don't think vial needs to be banned at all. If your deck can't beat gobs with vial and no lackey it really doesn't deserve the win. Seems like every test game I lose to goblins is a game that either lackey or vial + appropriate hatelands produces but 9/10 times its the lackey (or sometimes 2 :( ). Once lackey gets banned I will be able to break out like 10 decks I have on ice because of lackey I gives a fuck about vial.

[Evil Roopey]

Is Goblins really that unpopular now that no one has posted in this thread in over a month? What's going on? Is the best deck in the format no more? Are people even playing it anymore?

Roop

[Sims]

Actually Roop, I think it is more the lack of innovation (what you said before, they have a T8 GP list now, they are gunna get too lazy to tweak) and the fact that there really haven't been anything but Weekly tournies lately. Discussion might pick up a bit more for a while after the Duel for Duals, discussing why the deck did/didn't win, what it did and didn't lose to....

But aside from that, people are lazy and are just going to copy the GP list(s) card for card.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Goblins does have a huge core of necessary or nearly necessary cards, which makes innovation pretty difficult.

Tin-Street Hooligan (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16766&d=1137696446) looks like a decent tool for Goblin players who splash green. It's probably a lot better than Tinkerer or Vandals, and very maindeck-worthy.

[AnwarA101]

Actually Roop, I think it is more the lack of innovation (what you said before, they have a T8 GP list now, they are gunna get too lazy to tweak) and the fact that there really haven't been anything but Weekly tournies lately. Discussion might pick up a bit more for a while after the Duel for Duals, discussing why the deck did/didn't win, what it did and didn't lose to....

But aside from that, people are lazy and are just going to copy the GP list(s) card for card.

Doesn't this deck need to better to prepare for Gro? It seems like one of the reasons Gro is doing well is that it can handle Goblins consistently. Shouldn't Goblins try to make the matchup more favorable?

[Lego]

Like ObFreely said, you can't really innovate too much with the maindeck, I would say there is only about a 4-6 card innovation range, so most of it has to be done in the board. Without a major overhall of the way the deck is played, I guess Goblins just needs to dedicate sideboard space to Gro, and there are a lot of options.

One of the possibilities I've discussed with some friends is going for a White splash with, hear me out, no fetchlands. Play Plateau, Sacred Foundry, whatever, and this allows you to play Suppression Field. I think this only really works well in a deck already playing Chrome Mox (which isn't ideal, imo) but it can hurt Gro (and several other archetypes) a lot. The other option, I guess, is to play things like Chalice of the Void or Tangle Wire, which can be a huge hurt to Gro. Red Elemental Blast, which is already played, is good, and I think something needs to be borded for the Worships.

Whenever I play the deck, I don't usually end up boarding too much in most matchups, usually just Sirocco and Red Elemental Blast, so I think sufficient hate can be dedicated to Gro, and I'm positive I missed a lot of the options.

[AnwarA101]

Like ObFreely said, you can't really innovate too much with the maindeck, I would say there is only about a 4-6 card innovation range, so most of it has to be done in the board. Without a major overhall of the way the deck is played, I guess Goblins just needs to dedicate sideboard space to Gro, and there are a lot of options.

One of the possibilities I've discussed with some friends is going for a White splash with, hear me out, no fetchlands. Play Plateau, Sacred Foundry, whatever, and this allows you to play Suppression Field. I think this only really works well in a deck already playing Chrome Mox (which isn't ideal, imo) but it can hurt Gro (and several other archetypes) a lot. The other option, I guess, is to play things like Chalice of the Void or Tangle Wire, which can be a huge hurt to Gro. Red Elemental Blast, which is already played, is good, and I think something needs to be borded for the Worships.

Whenever I play the deck, I don't usually end up boarding too much in most matchups, usually just Sirocco and Red Elemental Blast, so I think sufficient hate can be dedicated to Gro, and I'm positive I missed a lot of the options.

Playing Suppression Field in a deck with Aether Vial doesn't seem like the best idea.

[troopatroop]

Blood moon? That seems pretty nuts to me.

I'm not sure if the white splash is even needed.

FTK and Moon should be enough hate to rail them.

[Zilla]

Playing Suppression Field in a deck with Aether Vial doesn't seem like the best idea.
You forgot Sharpshooter, SCG, Fanatic, Wasteland and Port.


Blood moon? That seems pretty nuts to me.
Problem with Blood Moon is that it's not going to see play until 3rd turn at the earliest, and more often 4th because you need to play around Daze. By 4th turn, Thresh will a) have used all their fetches to get all the basic lands they need, b) have threshold, c) have Werebear to produce green, and d) can still cast Pyroclasm and Fledgling Dragon. In short, it seems good in theory, and will probably suck in practice.

What about running Price of Progress as a finisher? Or even Scald, for that matter?

[Lego]

Playing Suppression Field in a deck with Aether Vial doesn't seem like the best idea.

Right, I suck. I was playing it in the Extended version and eating up other decks, just didn't do enough thinking, sorry.

Blood Moon seems awesome.

[Sims]

Basically read what Zilla said about Blood Moon.... It's too slow and most often after they see it once or think it might be there they will play around it by fetching into basics first and essentially null the whole point of casting it.

@FTK: The anti-synergy with Ringleader is way too great to even consider this. We've known this for a long time, which is why outside of Flores' one build in 1.x we never ran the FTK.... So why now would we throw the concept of Synergy to the wind and run two 4cc cards that Conflict with eachother on so many levels and would both be integral to winning the matchup? I mean most answers are going to be non-goblins so dropping it to the bottom is kind of moot, but it's also another 4cc spell that will conflict with the other (and better) 4-drop in Ringleader... Casting it or Vialing it. It seems like there has to be something better to play than the FTK.

@White Splash: Maybe not necessarily White, but some splash is needed. There are still hate cards, cards integral to functionality in other decks, and of course Worship in the U/G/W Thresh matchup that require a disenchant effect in the board. Whichever splash color you take is totally up to you, but I don't think you can walk away from W or G now, despite the extra strain it puts on the manabase.

@Supression Field: No.

@Price/Scald: Scald seems rather narrow, really only being relevant in the Thresh Matchup (granted that's likely to be a popular matchup) and as a weak hate card vs. Solidarity (which isn't seeing much play.) Price is probably the better option if you are to go this route, as you can use it in matchups other than Thresh.... The 3-color aggro matchup, for example, would love to have Price as a suprise finisher... But I'm not sure it's the optimal choice.

[Artowis]

Playing Suppression Field in a deck with Aether Vial doesn't seem like the best idea.

Right, I suck. I was playing it in the Extended version and eating up other decks, just didn't do enough thinking, sorry.

Blood Moon seems awesome.'

Been there, done that. It stand by my W/R field goblins list in Extended, because there are wayyyy more effects you can wreck with that card. In addition you couldn't run Vial anyway, kind of made the choice easy.

In Legacy it doesn't even work half as well (Other than vs. survival, which sucks), since there are way fewer activated abilities you care about.

BM is decent post-board. Goblin Goon is still good. Fledgling Dragon post-board is one of your few ways to win any thresh or-sucktastic aggro match. Otherwise no new tech here.

[James Bond]

I haven't been following this thread in awhile, that in mind I have 3 serious questions for the pros:

1) Has corrupted angel finally decided to run lackeys in his deck?
2) With the lack of life/trix decks on the market is it still considered wise to board in sulfuric vortex?
3) Is the concept of running a r/b deck with both living deaths and vials a good idea?

Thank you.

[Lego]

@ JamesBond: The Vortexes are still great against a lot of the combo that is out there. They're good against basically all the storm combo decks, although there are more narrow and effective answers like Sirocco, but they don't hit as many decks.

As for the R/B version, it's one way to go, but I think you lose too much speed for the benefits to be worth it. I think a lot of the good matchups are based on the fact that you can race most everything in the format, and if you start dilluting the core of Goblins, that becomes less possible. Try it out against the tougher matchups, and the big ones like Thresh, but I think you'll find it's less consistant and doesn't add enough.

[Bongo]

@ JamesBond: The Vortexes are still great against a lot of the combo that is out there. They're good against basically all the storm combo decks, although there are more narrow and effective answers like Sirocco, but they don't hit as many decks.


This statement doesnt make sense. How can Sulfuric Vortex be great against combo? The only combo that would be affected by Vortex is Life, which is not a storm-based combo.
I suspect that you meant Pyrostatic Pillar, which is halfway-decent against storm combo.


Another point: I don't think this is all-new (if it was, I would be very surprised), but what about the green splash for Caller of the Claw against Pyroclasm, Infest, Plague and other mass removal? Green also offers Naturalize.

[Lego]

Right, sorry about that, Pyrostatic Pillar is what I mean. Sulfuric Vortex has no place in this deck.

The green splash is interesting, both because I always feel like Goblins needs either Disenchant or Naturalize, and for the Caller tech, but I'm not sure how effective he would be. He doesn't answer a second turn Pyroclasm unless you're on the play, and he sometimes won't even answer a Tivadar's Crusade or Infest. He'll answer Wrath, which is nice, and there are those times when the Pyroclasm or Plague will come late, and he'll be an answer, but I think you'd need to test to see how often he was actually an issue. I find I usually win with this deck based on Warchief, Piledriver, Siege-Gang, and Sharpshooter, not just bears, so even if they Wrath away 5 guys and you get 5 bears, the quality of your creatures has gone down.

Also, leaving open three mana on turn three instead of playing another dude that can swing doesn't seem optimal, but I've always been bad about not overcommitting, so I'm not sure.

[Sims]

I haven't been following this thread in awhile, that in mind I have 3 serious questions for the pros:

1) Has corrupted angel finally decided to run lackeys in his deck?

3) Is the concept of running a r/b deck with both living deaths and vials a good idea?

Thank you.

Yes, I added Lackeys back to my build to shore up the Landstill match, that was a loooooong time ago. The R/b version of the deck has fallen out of favor as you don't need the disruption or gain of Deaths anymore, the format has shifted significantly enough to warrant the splashes of W or G.


Edit: yea... That was a long time ago. What brought that up?

[Slay]

Frenzied Goblin seems like good tech against Threshold. Keeps them from holding back your barrage with a dude while they find a Crusade or Pyroclasm.
-Slay

[Lego]

That's some extended tech for you. Two issues: I never want to have mana open to use for that ability. I'm either playing out more dudes or Porting their mana, and by the time I have anything open, they've already found the 'Clasm. Second, he's useless against Mongoose. Worth testing though.

[Machinus]

I run green for domain. It answer many hate cards, and can go X-for-1 any time. Neither color can stop Pyro, but StP hasn't been worth white.

Am I the only one playing with taigas?

[dsg123456789]

I'd like to bring up Shared Triumph as an answer. It also answers many hate cards and also costs only 2 mana (like Tranquil Domain). However, it is a proactive card that increases the total power of your goblins by 50% (assuming an even split of 1/x and 2/x goblins). While Shared Triumph won't save the smallest goblins from Pyroclasm, it will allow Piledrivers, Warchiefs, Ringleaders, SGCs, Kikis, and Tinkerers to survive.

[Zilla]

Shared Triumph has already been discussed in this thread, actually. I agree that it answers a lot of the deck's problems, and is likely one of the best overall solutions available. I'm surprised it's not seeing more play.

Then again, with the printing of Tin Street Hooligan, green might actually be the better way to go. Tranquil Domain answers all of your enchantment problems, and Hooligan is tutorable artifact removal attached to a beatstick. You could run him as a one or two-of against decks that pack problem artifacts like Jitte, Needle, Disk, SoFI, etc.

[Machinus]

Then again, with the printing of Tin Street Hooligan, green might actually be the better way to go. Tranquil Domain answers all of your enchantment problems, and Hooligan is tutorable artifact removal attached to a beatstick. You could run him as a one or two-of against decks that pack problem artifacts like Jitte, Needle, Disk, SoFI, etc.

I already run tinkerer as a 1-of maindeck. I think he is better than the hooligan, since he can kill multiple 0/1cc artifacts, or one large artifact. He is actually a very strong addition to the deck, since he costs 1R (a weak slot for goblins) and has 2 toughness (which is so important).

That being said, I still think green is proper. I'd like to hear some defense of Swords to Plowshares, because it is never good for me.

[Zilla]

I'd like to hear some defense of Swords to Plowshares, because it is never good for me.
Honestly? I've never run it in Goblins, although there are a few instances where I would. In the current metagame, I'd say it's largely unnecessary. However, it's very strong against The Game (not as Salvager Game), it's strong against Reanimator, it has some merit against Gro (but by and large unnecessary), and it's good against decks like Angel Stompy, where you're not getting rid of Angel or Silver Knight without StP in most cases. Like I said though, mostly not huge metagame concerns. If StP ever was the right call, you'd always have Tempest of Light to fill in for the Tranquil Domain slot, though. Obviously Domain is better at what it does, but I'm just pointing out that the option is there for white as well.

[Amon Amarth]

Has anyone considered the use of Seedtime? It seems like a good choice against Threshold and blue based decks in general. The insane tempo you gain from resolving this guy is unequalled. It's a freaking Time Walk! However, it could be played around, but that does limit their flexibility. It is a narrow card that doesn't hit anything else in the meta currently. Unlike cards like Tormod's Crypt which are more versatile.

Thoughts?

[Machinus]

Has anyone considered the use of Seedtime? It seems like a good choice against Threshold and blue based decks in general. The insane tempo you gain from resolving this guy is unequalled. It's a freaking Time Walk! However, it could be played around, but that does limit their flexibility. It is a narrow card that doesn't hit anything else in the meta currently. Unlike cards like Tormod's Crypt which are more versatile.Thoughts?

There's just not enough blue in the format to make it worthwhile. I'm not sure Legacy will ever have that much blue in it.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Seedtime would be pretty strong if you're hitting with Lackey or ramping a Vial, but in most other situations you would probably be better off using the 2 mana to develop your board this turn.

Of course, utilizing your acceleration is almost always a top priority, it's just that Goblins is favored to win most games in which it can abuse Lackey or Vial, anyway. I suspect Seedtime is a win-more type of card because of this.

[Lego]

I've considered Seed Time in decks like Solidarity or Spring Tide, where it can be Wished for, but that seems like a 1-in-100. I don't think it has much application in Goblins, where I would rather drop and swing with a Piledriver than save the mana for a potential Seed Time that I'm not even sure of anyway.

There are some cute goblins in Guildpact (and Feral Animist is one of my favorite pictures in a long time) but nothing other than Tin Street that catches my eye.

On that note, why haven't I been seeing Kiki-Jiki lately? I find that when he's in play, I just win.

[Machinus]

I've considered Seed Time in decks like Solidarity or Spring Tide, where it can be Wished for, but that seems like a 1-in-100. I don't think it has much application in Goblins, where I would rather drop and swing with a Piledriver than save the mana for a potential Seed Time that I'm not even sure of anyway.

There are some cute goblins in Guildpact (and Feral Animist is one of my favorite pictures in a long time) but nothing other than Tin Street that catches my eye.

On that note, why haven't I been seeing Kiki-Jiki lately? I find that when he's in play, I just win.

I never cut him. He does tend to end the game quickly when he comes down, but I am down to two SGC because of it.

[calosso]

I have tested the against all three varients of gro and the match-up can be quiet difficult at times. Since I have decided to reveal my amazing sideboard before the Dual for Duels to prove Goblins can beat gro.

3 Jitte (If you get counters the game is over)

3 patron of the Akki (Stops plague and it can be sided in against the Red and black varients of gro)

3 pithing Needle (enough said)

2 Pyrokensis ( against any agrro deck that comes in your way also since
3 color agro deck have started appearing the count can possibly go up to four. Lighning blt can take it's place)

3 Phyrexian Furnace or Tormonds Crypt (It can slow down gro long enough to overwhelm them. Also can be very good against reanimater.)

1 Anarchy (White weenie, and Rabid Wombat has always been a very hard match-up so with the addition to jitte the match-up will be substantually greater.)


Other possible sideboard options

Reb- Solidarity is not played and fewer players no how to play it well.

Sharpshooter- with the newer agro decks that are coming out Pyrokensis and Lightning bolt seem strictly better.

Pyroststic pillar- It sucks balls combo is not popular enough. I guess it can be used against gro but I have learned the hard way pillar can possibly kick you in the ass.

Flaring pain- Not good at all.

Flashfire- Anarchy is strictly better

Boil- To slow. Rather play Reb against gro. Against landstill i would rather run flashfires.





Match-ups improved by my amazing sideboard.

Gro- Over half the sideboard can be sided in to help the gro match-up alot smother.

Burn/sligh- Jitte shines in this match-up all the sligh players scoop when the see counters on jitte.

Rabid wombat/ White weenie- This match-up will never become easy but with jitte Humility and pariah lock become alot worse.

Three colored agro decks- This match-up is difficult but not impossible. Patron of the Akki is a beast compared to all there weenies, and jitte just makes them bend over until they drop one of there own.


I will be playing in the Dual for Duels and I will be running this sideboard. If you decided to run my board you won't go wrong. Post on the thread to tell me if I have missed any flaws in my board.



Sorry for my bad grammer I am hispanic.

[Amon Amarth]

Match-ups improved by my amazing sideboard.

Gro- Over half the sideboard can be sided in to help the gro match-up alot smother.

What would you side out? There are not many cards you can take out before you start diluting your deck. In any given matchup I would not board in more than 6 cards.

[calosso]

Against I would side in.
3 jitte

3 Furnace/ Crypt

3 patrons of the akki (You should only side in patron of the akki against the red varient of gro)

You would Side out

2 pyromancers
1 sharpshooter
1 tinkerer
2 fanatic

Against the red varient of gro you should side these as well
1 gempalm incenerator
2 fanatics

[troopatroop]

Against Gro I side in.

3 jitte
3 Furnace/ Crypt

3 patrons of the akki (matters what varient of gro it is I would side him in the red varient)

Side out

2 pyromancers
1 sharpshooter
1 tinkerer
2 fanatic

Other Gro varients

2 fanatics
1 vial

excuse me for my over exageration. It is only against the good varient of gro I side in six cards(red varient).

The other two varients I side in six.

Do you speak english? For the love of everything holy... I don't even know what you're saying. Proofread. Please.

[Amon Amarth]

@ Calosso: Why would you side out Vial vs Gro? That is the single most important card in that matchup, shutting off all their countermagic and instant speed creatures are hellish for their attack phase, as well as dodging the incoming Pyroclasm(s) after board.

On Kiki-Jiki: I cut him for a 3rd Siege-Gang Commander, who is a far better topdeck than the Legendary Goblin. After a wrath effect, you don't want to be topdecking a 5 mana 2/2 hasted weenie. Also, if he does resolve, he needs something like Matron or Ringleader in play to be truly effective. SGC however is always a bomb.

[calosso]

@ Calosso: Why would you side out Vial vs Gro? That is the single most important card in that matchup, shutting off all their countermagic and instant speed creatures are hellish for their attack phase, as well as dodging the incoming Pyroclasm(s) after board.

On Kiki-Jiki: I cut him for a 3rd Siege-Gang Commander, who is a far better topdeck than the Legendary Goblin. After a wrath effect, you don't want to be topdecking a 5 mana 2/2 hasted weenie. Also, if he does resolve, he needs something like Matron or Ringleader in play to be truly effective. SGC however is always a bomb.

Sorry for the error the actual card that gets sided out is Gempalm incenerator.

As for Kiki- Jiki he is amazing. If he resolves or gets vialed in every goblin in the deck becomes a threat with kiki especially Ringleader, matron, pyromancer, and even piledriver.

[James Bond]

I'm on the band camp who will affirm that kikijiki is really just a "win more" card. The card capitalizes on the very same resources that are supposed to win you the game regardless. It makes what's great even greater, whereas sgc can help in just about any way.

[calosso]

I'm on the band camp who will affirm that kikijiki is really just a "win more" card. The card capitalizes on the very same resources that are supposed to win you the game regardless. It makes what's great even greater, whereas sgc can help in just about any way.

First of all it is bandwagon.

Second I disagree completely. Kiki-jiki must be dealt with immediatly against gro because of the card advantage he gains for goblins against gro. Also Siege gang can be dealt with easily since they respond to his come in to play abilty and then all you have left is three dorks. Woot you have 3 1/1 goblins goblin marshal can do that.

[Lego]

The thing that makes Kiki-Jiki not just a "Win More" card is that a lot of times he's a "Win" card. He'll win you the game a whole turn earlier, or get you out of a spot you never would have gotten out of otherwise. Sure, your position may look fine with Piledriver, Warchief, Ringleader on the board, but Kiki-Jiki can often drop down and give you that second Piledriver for the last few points of damage, or whatever it is you need, ending the game a full turn earlier and avoiding mass removal or crazy topdecks. He can also pull you out of situations where you've got just a Ringleader, or just a Matron, and put you back in the game. He's not Win More because this deck doesn't win until your opponent has 0 life. You never establish inevitability with this deck, because a single Wrath, Pyroclasm, a few blockers, or even a couple of Bolts can completely ruin your day. Kiki-Jiki speeds up the game enough that that can't happen, and gives you the resiliency to come back from those deficits.

[Zilla]

Lego and Calosso are correct. The Jeek wins games faster than you otherwise would, and sometimes wins you games you wouldn't have otherwise won. Recurring draw and search by copying Ringleader and Matron means you can recover from mass removal or an otherwise weakened board position much more quickly and efficiently. The only times he's win more are games you're already winning. In these games, SGC is also win more. I'm unaware of any good reason not to run Jeek as at least a one-of.

[Canook]

Personally, I'd play 2 Kiki-Jiki in the main. Kiki is such a game breaking card, that once it hits play, your opponent, if they're playing a good deck will find a way to deal with him that turn, because they have to or it's usually over. Once they deal with him, you've got another. I know it might not sound that great of an idea, but if Kiki is what you need to win a game, you've got two just incase something goes wrong.

Now, about Gobliln Pyromancer, great card as a one of. I personally would never play more than that. People say it's great in the mirror, but if you're paired up agains a good player and not Little Johnny. The good player would be prepared for something like that, saving an Incinerator, etc... Granted it's good in mirror v. Little Johnny.
This is why I think that Kiki Jiki would be much better as a two of in the deck over Goblin Pyromancer as a two of. It's just much more versital than Goblin Pyromancer.

The question is, Would you rather drop a Turn 2 Pyromancer or Kiki-Jiki off of Goblin Lackey?

I have a few questions about Calosso's sideboard. I noticed that your board is completely Metagamed. It's not going to be prepared for an Interstate Tournament. Your board is primarily built to beat things at the Lucky Frog, which consists mainly of Gro, 1 Wombat, 1 Sui, 1 Landstill, 1 3 Color Aggro, 1 Boros Aggro. It doesn't seem like it'd be helpful to anyone that would want to play anywhere else but the Lucky Frog. You say that you want to play with that build at the Duel for Duals right? I'd suggest changing it. Primarily because the tournament is going to be at a Limited Grand Prix, nearly 1000 people show up to those things. And i'm sure a lot of them will be playing in the Duel for Duals, because they can play there old Extended Decks. So you've got to be prepared for more than just those decks you see at the Lucky Frog.

[calosso]

Personally, I'd play 2 Kiki-Jiki in the main. Kiki is such a game breaking card, that once it hits play, your opponent, if they're playing a good deck will find a way to deal with him that turn, because they have to or it's usually over. Once they deal with him, you've got another. I know it might not sound that great of an idea, but if Kiki is what you need to win a game, you've got two just incase something goes wrong.

Now, about Gobliln Pyromancer, great card as a one of. I personally would never play more than that. People say it's great in the mirror, but if you're paired up agains a good player and not Little Johnny. The good player would be prepared for something like that, saving an Incinerator, etc... Granted it's good in mirror v. Little Johnny.
This is why I think that Kiki Jiki would be much better as a two of in the deck over Goblin Pyromancer as a two of. It's just much more versital than Goblin Pyromancer.

The question is, Would you rather drop a Turn 2 Pyromancer or Kiki-Jiki off of Goblin Lackey?

I have a few questions about Calosso's sideboard. I noticed that your board is completely Metagamed. It's not going to be prepared for an Interstate Tournament. Your board is primarily built to beat things at the Lucky Frog, which consists mainly of Gro, 1 Wombat, 1 Sui, 1 Landstill, 1 3 Color Aggro, 1 Boros Aggro. It doesn't seem like it'd be helpful to anyone that would want to play anywhere else but the Lucky Frog. You say that you want to play with that build at the Duel for Duals right? I'd suggest changing it. Primarily because the tournament is going to be at a Limited Grand Prix, nearly 1000 people show up to those things. And i'm sure a lot of them will be playing in the Duel for Duals, because they can play there old Extended Decks. So you've got to be prepared for more than just those decks you see at the Lucky Frog.

My board is designed to beat 2 of the best decks in the format which is Gro and goblins. It is true might be limited to the upper tier decks but I am depending on the raw power of goblins to handle random shit like boros deck wins and elves.

Also Ahmead no one at the frog play boros deck wins, or landstill for that matter. I also doubt there are going to be more than 100 people at the duel for duals.


Excuse me for my terrible grammer.

[Canook]

Ok, excuse my being blunt. But...
1. It's at a Limited Grand Prix, average about 600+ people show up to those things.
2. It's in a format where you can play just about any old extended port.
3. It's for Buku Duals. Everyone wants Duals, either for decks or for trade.
4. I guarentee that you will see a lot of random shit, and not enough of the Upper Tier to have your entire sideboard devoted to that.

Also, the lack of Red Elemental Blast from your board is going to be a huge mistake. It's one of the best Red Sideboard cards ever printed, and it should be played as a 4 of when going to a major tournament. Also, the Green or White color splash might be needed if you want to be able to compete in the first few rounds. You've got access to cards like Naturalize, Tranquil Domain, Disenchant, Swords to Plowshares, etc. Three of those 4 are definately going to be useful throughout the tournament.

Also at the Green or White splash, Rabid Wombat has started to rise again, aswell as Landstill, apparently people are still playing it. But you need to worry about them, you shouldn't be so narrow minded to think that this deck is just going to overrun anything that isn't in the LMF.

Consider this Board. Only if you'd like to go Green.
3 Tranquil Domain <- Could be Disenchant if you'd like to go White.
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pithing Needle
4 Phyrexian Furnace/ Crypt
1 Goblin Sharpshooter <- Another answer to the random creature decks.

Mono Red Board.
3 Anarchy
3 Goblin King <- I guess it could be Patron, but Patron isn't a goblin that can be searched up or Ringleadered.
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Phyrexian Furnace/ Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis

Those are only suggested boards. They could easily be tweaked to your own liking, but it's built for a much more broad metagame, not a too specific one. Because you never know.

[calosso]

Ok, excuse my being blunt. But...
1. It's at a Limited Grand Prix, average about 600+ people show up to those things.
2. It's in a format where you can play just about any old extended port.
3. It's for Buku Duals. Everyone wants Duals, either for decks or for trade.
4. I guarentee that you will see a lot of random shit, and not enough of the Upper Tier to have your entire sideboard devoted to that.

Also, the lack of Red Elemental Blast from your board is going to be a huge mistake. It's one of the best Red Sideboard cards ever printed, and it should be played as a 4 of when going to a major tournament. Also, the Green or White color splash might be needed if you want to be able to compete in the first few rounds. You've got access to cards like Naturalize, Tranquil Domain, Disenchant, Swords to Plowshares, etc. Three of those 4 are definately going to be useful throughout the tournament.

Also at the Green or White splash, Rabid Wombat has started to rise again, aswell as Landstill, apparently people are still playing it. But you need to worry about them, you shouldn't be so narrow minded to think that this deck is just going to overrun anything that isn't in the LMF.

Consider this Board. Only if you'd like to go Green.
3 Tranquil Domain <- Could be Disenchant if you'd like to go White.
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pithing Needle
4 Phyrexian Furnace/ Crypt
1 Goblin Sharpshooter <- Another answer to the random creature decks.

Mono Red Board.
3 Anarchy
3 Goblin King <- I guess it could be Patron, but Patron isn't a goblin that can be searched up or Ringleadered.
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Phyrexian Furnace/ Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis

Those are only suggested boards. They could easily be tweaked to your own liking, but it's built for a much more broad metagame, not a too specific one. Because you never know.

First of all. Vial goblins beats landstill. Because of all the land denial they will be stalled out of wrath mana and then they just lose. Also dropping uncounterable creatures every turn seems pretty good against landstill.
Also REB is not a good sideboard option right now. Because the only good deck it does well against is solidarity. I can be sided in against gro but that is sub-par to jitte.

White/green sideboard options.
The only adition it gives you is disenchant/naturalize/Caller of the claw.
Swords to plowshares in the goblin sideboard is god awful. Pyrokenesis fills that slot perfectly. Also in the mirror match there is no need to weaken your sideboard just so you can improve other match-ups slightly.
Anarchy serves the same purpose ad disenchant/naturalize since the only enchantments you want to kill are Worship/Humility. The only reasonable enchanment left is Plague and Pattron of the akki solves that problem.

Last but not least.
What the fuck is Buku

Sorry for the terrible grammer once again.

[Lego]

Buku:

http://www.langmaker.com/db/eng_buku.htm

[Bun Bun, Lord of Darkness]

Why Patron?

Pyroclasm, Hideous Laughter and other Infest variants, Double Engineered Plague, Flamebreak, and hard casted Slice and Dice (unrealistic though it may be) all nuke your team entirely, if you have only one King. You need two Kings to stop the first three options, and 2 Kings STILL won't save you from the last two. Heck, even 3 Kings can't save you from hardcasted Slice and Dice. Patron will survive all of those. Sure, he's vulnerable to spot removal, but so are the Kings. Having your King killed while there's an Engineered Plague out isn't fun. I like to stick with Patron. He's big (three turn clock), he isn't a Goblin (an advantage against Engineered Plague), and you can use him for a third-turn kill.

There are certainly sound arguments for the King, don't get me wrong, I just prefer Patron, and the previous paragraph is an explanation why.

Also, having only 3 REB is weak, at best. You don't have a chance of getting many of them, at least enough of them to fight a deck with heavy blue. Besides, Pyroblast is better.

[Machinus]

Besides, Pyroblast is better.

I'm interested in hearing your argument for why Pyroblast is better than REB.

[Lego]

I'm interested in hearing your argument for why Pyroblast is better than REB.

Because it can be misdirected to a non-blue Permanent? No, Misirect works on REB too... it can be shunted! Nope, same thing. Basically they're both the same if you're not playing Storm Combo. Run 2 of each :)

[Machinus]

Because it can be misdirected to a non-blue Permanent? No, Misirect works on REB too... it can be shunted! Nope, same thing. Basically they're both the same if you're not playing Storm Combo. Run 2 of each :)

The ability to be Misdirected makes the card weaker, not stronger. You want it to resolve on the targets you choose. Reb > Pyroblast.

[Obfuscate Freely]

The vast majority of the time, a Blast will be targeting something on the stack. In that case, even REB can be Misdirected, so the difference is extremely marginal.

Not to mention the fact that nobody plays Misdirection, anyway.

I could almost, almost, argue that Pyroblast is better because it kills Tar Pit Warriors. I mean, that's about as relevant.

[Bane of the Living]

"First of all. Vial goblins beats landstill. Because of all the land denial they will be stalled out of wrath mana and then they just lose. Also dropping uncounterable creatures every turn seems pretty good against landstill."

WOA! Thats such a shitty assumption. The reason it is on the rise again is because its going down to 2 colors again. Or using other cards. No white should still mean pyroclasm or earthquake. no red means wrath. all three is engineered explosives or nevs disk. Gobs is a reason I'll bring Landstill to a tournament, maindeck hate.

[MattH]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=beaucoup

The word was originally "beaucoup" but I guess that was a little too complicated for your average teenager.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Vial Goblins only beats bad Landstill players.

Patron of the Akki is very solid against Gro because instant speed, uncounterable 5/5's are techy. Werebear entering the red zone to nothing more suspicious than an Aether Vial set at 3 and three untapped lands can mean death.

1x Anarchy is retarded and you're retarded if you run it, thankskbye.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Patron is extraordinarily counterable, in a way that only expensive fatties that require you to invest multiple cards can be.

He's still okay against Gro, I suppose, since he's big enough to matter even after they have threshold, but an awful lot of the times he does manage to resolve they'll be able to double-block it without falling behind in cards.

For the Gro matchup, I'd rather have Flametongue Kavu.

[Bun Bun, Lord of Darkness]

You're right, you can get two for one'd. But, at the same time, that shouldn't stop one from running something so extrodinarily useful against Engineered Plague and other forms of limited global removal. I'm not advocating running it maindeck or anything (though I've toyed with the idea).

As much as I respect IBA, I have to disagree with his position. I've played against some excellent Landstill players. I'm not saying that Goblins always wins, I went about 50/50, but I'm far from buying the idea that only bad Landstill players lose to Goblins. Rishadan Port and Wasteland are good weapons, and &#198;ther Vial does evade counterspells. It's a tough matchup either way, but far from unwinnable for Goblins.

To elaborate on 3 REB: I recently reread an old ManaDrain article about the 8 Blast Plan. I'm hoping the title is self-explanatory. In it, it was recommended not to run less than 6-7 Blasts. I have to agree. To me, it seems that running 3 REB between maindeck and sideboard would be like a blue player running only 3 Force of Will. It's just too few to be effective.

Sorry, I really didn't intend the Pyroblast thing to be a "firestarter," I mostly considered it a humorous aside, based mostly on the "Tar Pit Warrior/Horobi" argument. Guess that proves you shouldn't say anything you can't fully back up, even in jest.

But I'm gonna say that the art IS better.

And who in god's overused name would run 1x Anarchy?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Patron is extraordinarily counterable, in a way that only expensive fatties that require you to invest multiple cards can be.

He's still okay against Gro, I suppose, since he's big enough to matter even after they have threshold, but an awful lot of the times he does manage to resolve they'll be able to double-block it without falling behind in cards.

For the Gro matchup, I'd rather have Flametongue Kavu.


Shut your face with your fat, ugly rules.


Note that saccing a Ringleader or Matron isn't card disadvantage, however. Also, I'd think the better strategy than attacking with Patron by itself into double Werebear would be to not be a moron and wait until you can attack in force, after Patron makes every creature you control a threat.

This is, incidentally, why I've been saying that if you want to metagame against Gro, replace Rishadan Port with Goblin Burrows.

[Sims]

This is, incidentally, why I've been saying that if you want to metagame against Gro, replace Rishadan Port with Goblin Burrows.

I've been advocating something similar, actually. I hadn't thought of Burrows, exactly, but it did dawn on me while playing against Gro and having my shit pushed in that using both Waste' and Port' abilities was stunting my own development and keeping me playing a bad control role instead of actually playing Aggro... Bad enough that I've been toying with the idea of 2 and 0 Ports in the deck to see if any difference was made by the increase in Red producing lands and a decrease in dedication to the mana denial strategy... Haven't really considered Burrows, however.

Just something else to add to the list.

[thenick2000]

I've been playing Vial Goblins for a long time and the best strategy that I have used in the Legacy Metagame is running 4 wasteland and 4 rishadan ports in the deck. Kind of makes goblins a control deck and keeps either landstill or grow off color mana that they need to wreck your board. I believe this is the best strategy because it allows you to control the game instead of them all the time. Just a quick thought.

[Evil Roopey]

I've been playing Vial Goblins for a long time and the best strategy that I have used in the Legacy Metagame is running 4 wasteland and 4 rishadan ports in the deck. Kind of makes goblins a control deck and keeps either landstill or grow off color mana that they need to wreck your board. I believe this is the best strategy because it allows you to control the game instead of them all the time. Just a quick thought.


The point they were trying to make is the fact that Port actually sucks against Threshold. Burrows makes even your Mogg Fanatics take down Werebears, which is signifacntly more powerful than tapping a land that they probably won't use anyways.

[Binary Star]

I've been playing Vial Goblins for a long time and the best strategy that I have used in the Legacy Metagame is running 4 wasteland and 4 rishadan ports in the deck. Kind of makes goblins a control deck and keeps either landstill or grow off color mana that they need to wreck your board. I believe this is the best strategy because it allows you to control the game instead of them all the time. Just a quick thought.

But is it really worth losing your white splash?

[dsg123456789]

But is it really worth losing your white splash?
You don't lose any splash. Unless you play in a meta chock full of Wastelands, there is no reason you cannot run 2 Plateaus and 6 fetches. I have run the White splash with 4 Ports and 4 Wastelands with no problem at all. Choosing to run a weaker deck (Dropping the splash even though it offers beneficial cards) in order not to be vulnerable to Wastelands, even though you only have 2 more lands that could be killed by them, is an example of The Fear; you shouldn't let fear compel you to run an inferior deck.

[thenick2000]

I really don't believe white adds enough to the deck to justify running a second color. This is a real disadvantage when it comes to the mirror b/c if you play dual lands, the other player can easily just wasteland it. I believe the one card that is key in the mirror is pyrokinesis in the board, other than that I can't think of anything. Plus, getting an active vial first is pretty good I heard.

I don't understand why we are talking about goblin burrows, thats a good card, maybe in extended not legacy. Why are we so worried about the threshold matchup? I believe its 50/50 because Goblins has the ability to just win. Maybe tuning your playing skills would serve everyone better than thinking of new tech for Threshold.

[Zilla]

Why are we so worried about the threshold matchup?
Because Threshold is the most popular deck in the format?


I believe its 50/50 because Goblins has the ability to just win.
You believe wrong. Thresh has evolved to have a definitively positive game against Goblins. This is common knowledge.


Maybe tuning your playing skills would serve everyone better than thinking of new tech for Threshold.
Maybe you should avoid making ridiculously stupid comments. Is there some reason that your flawed perception of the matchup should be accepted as fact when it goes against conventional wisdom? Even supposing that you were correct that the matchup is truly 50/50, why in hell wouldn't you want to change the deck to improve your matchup against the most prevalent deck in the format?

[Sims]

I really don't believe white adds enough to the deck to justify running a second color.


I deleted my other post because Zilla said everything I said, but better. Though, I must still comment on this.

Mono-R Strengthens your manabase, but you lose the Disenchant-effects that you can bring in from your sideboard. How are you going to answer Worship from UGW Gro when they have Mongoose on the table? Anarchy? It's going to get countered by then. Cry and scoop? That's the more likely alternative. 1-2 Dual lands is not going to decrease your consistancy against the mirror enough to warrant losing a powerful weapon in Disenchant/Naturalize type effects.

[Bun Bun, Lord of Darkness]

Given my "metagame" (an overly charitable moniker, to be sure) I cannot claim to be any sort of authority on "real" match-ups.

However, sitting here, in the nosebleeds where all I can see are decklists and primers, it would seem to me that the way threshold beats Goblins is by having big, hard to kill/trade with threats (i.e. Mongoose, 'Bear) and Mage, which is something you almost have to kill because of the way it threatens your ability to, you know, play cards. Normally, you could circumvent this with, say, Vial, but the nature of maindeck Pithing Needle is to, well, bone that plan. Lackey can also circumvent Mage, but I'm thinking that a Thresh player with Bolt and StP maindeck would have adequate 1cc kill to make that point moot. Out of the sideboard, the extremely narrow (and thus, perhaps, less than ubiquitous?) Tivadar's Crusade, well, bones you.

All that said, it still doesn't seem, to me at least, that Thresh would be able to hit you so hard that you can't get 4 Goblins out. Gempalm Incinerator, being uncounterable, is nice. Maybe what's needed is more uncounterable removal. Would that Urza's Rage dealt 4 damage, eh? Goblin Burrows also looks like a step in the right direction. I'd say that the guy with 30+ creatures maindeck can probably afford to trade with the guy with 12. I can't say I like the idea of taking out 'Port for it (mostly because I just bought 4 'Ports for like $40, and I've got approx. 4 million Goblin Burrows just lying around) but I'd probably be more worried about seeing Thresh than Landstill at this point anyway. Well, at least in a "real" tournament. Note, also, that Patron of the Akki doesn't take it in the face from Tivadar's Crusade, unlike a certain "King" I've spoken of before.

Any glaring logical flaws or just sheer dumbassery anyone would like to point out?

[Drathro]

The Vial Goblins second place deck at the Star City Duel For Duals ran no obvious answers to the typical Goblin hate: no Kings or Patrons, no splash.

Is synergy and speed the way to go in the current meta, or did this deck just avoid the hate in its path to the top 8? Or am I missing something in the sideboard, which seems to have been prepared partially (5 red blasts) with High Tide in mind (to which Goblins lost in the finals)?

[Sims]

I'm honestly not sure what 5 Red Blasts was preparing for.... If I was worried about High Tide or Salvagers Combo (Salvager Game perhaps) I would run Pyrostatic Pillar with maybe a couple of blasts as a backup....But not just 5 Blasts.

[Lego]

That build seems *REALLY* strange to me. For anyone who hasn't seen it, it's here:

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=15652

Far be it for me to question Eugene Levin, or anyone who finishes 2nd at such a large tournament, but the maindeck Tinkerer, only 3 Incinerators, sideboard 2 Mountains? I'm not understanding a lot of these choices, can anyone explain? Does he fear Suppression Field enough to board out the Fetches for Mountains? 1 Char? I'm sure I'm missing a lot here, so can someone work it out for me?

[thenick2000]

Lego Man, if you don't understand his choices then you must not understand the current Legacy Metagame very much.

Goblin Tinker is a very good card in a lot of matchups.

Get rid of needle on vial, opposing aether vials, and any other annoying artifact that you might come across.

I won't get into the sideboard. If you play Goblins, you might understand the choices a bit more.

Eugene Levin is a better player than you Lego Man, so please keep quite on Goblins.

I have little patience for unnecessarily insulting posts. I have even less tolerance for blatant condescention, particularly when it's totally baseless. Welcome to the Banhammer. - Zilla

[Revert_To_Saved]

Eugene Levin is a better player than you Lego Man, so please keep quite on Goblins.

I don't think Lego Man's post warrents such a response. Perhaps if he was stating that Levin was an idiot for maindecking Tinkerer or siding Mountains, but he wasn't, he was merely attempting to understand the choices as they do seem a bit unusual. If such an attitude were taken that you shouldn't make efforts to understand or improve a certain build of a deck due to the pilot possibly being a better player than you, then very little development would take place. According to your logic, Finkel could make RandomPile.dec and it would automatically be above anyone's questions due to him being a better player.

I, too, would very much like to hear anyone's reasoning for sideboarding 2x Mountain and the Char; they both seem a little odd.

[dsg123456789]

Although I wasn't there, the buzz seems to be that a lot of Deadguy Ale was being played. Assuming he scouted a bit, he probably figured that 21 lands was not going to allow his deck to not be manascrewed against a player with 12 LD effects. The Char was probably just a filler or a control-buster, since it would be unexpected and it is fairly efficient (but Pulse of the Forge seems almost strictly better in a deck that can make RR).

[Sims]

Tinkerer is indeed a good card in a lot of matchups, but I'm not sure it warrants a Maindeck inclusion unless your area is heavy with Vial Goblins, Thresh with MD Needle, or slightly more random decks like 5/3 and Ravager... I Think it belongs more in the board, personally.

2 Mountains + 1 Char Sideboard - This is HIGHLY suspect. The concepts of Supression Field and a lot of Deadguy Ale warrant the manabase being almost all mountains with few to no fetches (along with being Mono-R to begin with), so I guess boarding fetches out for more basics will work against those strategies...but it seems like a rather weak choice of board slots. The Random Char, on the other hand, really needs to be explained. If he feared running into Threshold and was using Char as anti-bear tech, I would think he'd board more than 1 Char.

I Still disagree with anything less than 4 MD Gempalms, but I guess the extra (23rd) land was a meta-concern if he scouted a lot of Deadguy....


I was going to comment about Thenick's ridculous post, instead I will just say this:

Thenick; He is Godzilla, You are Japan.

[Bun Bun, Lord of Darkness]

I have to admit that I was asking the same questions Lego Man was. I'm glad to see that simple, understandable questions can raise such reasonable responses [/sarcasm]. At least we don't have to tolerate that anymore.

My best guess is that Mr. Levin showed up without a completely intact sideboard (and maybe even maindeck, as I think that 23 Mountains, a md Tinkerer, and only 3 Incinerators are all highly suspect) and had to scrounge, invent, and otherwise fill out a sideboard. I haven't hear otherwise, but I suppose it's possible he put that together on purpose. It just seems so thrown together, though.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Enchantress should have beat Goblins in T8 but I made a huge play error G1 when his only chance was to have me make a major play error. Then I won G2 easily and was almost certain to win G3 (Exploration and Enchantress Presence in play, Elephant Grass and Confinement in hand) as I only needed one Enchantress effect before he could kill me to basically lock the game down. His best chances to win were disenchant (which he didn't run), Anarchy (which he didn't run but I sideboarded in fear of), and first turn Lackey (he played first turn Fanatic), oh or me getting DQ'd for presenting an illegal deck which did happen (we won't go into that though). Looking at his list I'm very suprised he got so far and his sideboard has me totally baffled. I get that Anarchy sucks, and that Pyrostatic Pillar is only going to get countered most of the time, but what is the deal with his sideboard. No needle? Mountains?
I guess I don't play goblins so I wouldn't understand. I don't like Aggro, not having a late game makes me edgy. (even though that only 1/2 applies to Gobs)

[Krieger]

As for 2 Mountains and 1 Char Sideboard the mountains got swaped out for Wastelands against Deep6er so that he would no get color screwed and decks that don't have targets for wastesland in general. Basicly just a waste of three spots.

[Machinus]

I really like maindeck Tinkerer. He is really useful since he is tutorable, and he can destroy multiple small artifacts or one big one. However, the biggest strength of Tinkerer is his 1R cost. I don't think I'd ever cut him unless I knew for a fact that no one in the whole tournament was running vials, needles, jittes, scrolls, etc.

[Eldariel]

He also destroys the Chalice for 1 from Stax and friends, which is else pretty destructive, especially if they're on play, shutting down all the mana cheating in Goblins.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Everybody pay attention, Zoidberg is talking.


It is our opinion that Port should be cut for Goblin Burrows as Burrows lets you beat creatures with asses > 2, as seen in Threshold, Zoo, Angel Stompy, etc.. Also, +1 Skirk Fire Marshal in the sideboard as a tutorable, vial-able answer to Worship+Mongoose in Gro.

[Tao]

Goblin Burrows: are obviously great, everyone who pays attention knew that from your last post. Thx for the idea, it will kick some Mongoose Ass.

Skirk Firemarshall: I think if you are on 10 life or less, you are dead and your opponent is not, if you blast your firemarshall with mongoose and worship in play. It is way to win on more than 10 life, but no way to force a draw if both are under 10 life and the opponent has worship+creature.

Splash G: What about Splash G for Caller of the Claw? It is played quite often in our area and seems to be a fantastic answer to plague and mass removal. With G you also have access to Naturlalize.

Like:

Devastating Dreams > Draw Mana > Goblins die > Haha, 6 Bears for me

Same for Clasm, Wrath, Plague, Laughter, Tivadar's Crusade, Sacced Fanatics, Random attacks into Armies of Mongeese and Bears.

Caller is great! play it!

Note: with Goblin Burrows in the DTB even the Pr0s will have to accept that this is a serious format.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Oi, that I should live so long to have to fix every deck in the format for you people. Having a day off of work, I decided to make busted new post-Guildpact (I'msosorryforeverythingbadIsaidaboutyoubaby) versions of a couple Legacy decks. First, with the Goblins already;


// Lands
3 [ON] Goblin Burrows
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [CHK] Mountain (1)
3 [A] Taiga
3 [GP] Skarrg, the Rage Pits
1 [ST] Forest (4)

// Creatures
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [U] Goblin King
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [P2] Goblin Matron
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
2 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial


Notice the lack of Port/Wasteland already. The decision to cut mana-denial lands for pump lands is simple and flows with the entire metagame. Burrows, and to a lesser extent Skarg, allow you to beat up on larger creatures, improving Thresh and Zoo as matches, and circumvent Humility, and if played correctly, Wrath of God (allowing each creature to be a significant threat by itself), improving matchups across the board. Also, Skarg gives Piledriver trample. Piledriver. Trample. I can't emphasize that enough. Trample. On a Piledriver.

[Artowis]

Goblin Burrows: are obviously great, everyone who pays attention knew that from your last post. Thx for the idea, it will kick some Mongoose Ass.

Skirk Firemarshall: I think if you are on 10 life or less, you are dead and your opponent is not, if you blast your firemarshall with mongoose and worship in play. It is way to win on more than 10 life, but no way to force a draw if both are under 10 life and the opponent has worship+creature.

Splash G: What about Splash G for Caller of the Claw? It is played quite often in our area and seems to be a fantastic answer to plague and mass removal. With G you also have access to Naturlalize.

Like:

Devastating Dreams > Draw Mana > Goblins die > Haha, 6 Bears for me

Same for Clasm, Wrath, Plague, Laughter, Tivadar's Crusade, Sacced Fanatics, Random attacks into Armies of Mongeese and Bears.

Caller is great! play it!

Note: with Goblin Burrows in the DTB even the Pr0s will have to accept that this is a serious format.

Caller the Claw is terrible, because it means you've already played an army and yet for some reason have 2G open when your opponent casts removal. That in itself shouldn't be happening very often. Add in the fact that the critter sucks when your board isn't getting wiped out by Pyroclasm or Wrath and you have a terrible board card.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Caller the Claw is terrible, because it means you've already played an army and yet for some reason have 2G open when your opponent casts removal. That in itself shouldn't be happening very often. Add in the fact that the critter sucks when your board isn't getting wiped out by Pyroclasm or Wrath and you have a terrible board card.


Stop taking everything Zvi says so literally. Caller is also generally good against non-Swords removal and is at worst, still a creature. She's just bad in this deck for still being a non-Goblin. But she's no Ghostway; she's good against Edict, Lightning Bolt, and even with your own Mogg Fanatics.

[Artowis]

What the fuck does Zvi have to do with anything?


. She's just bad in this deck for still being a non-Goblin. But she's no Ghostway; she's good against Edict, Lightning Bolt, and even with your own Mogg Fanatics.

So apparently she doesn't suck quite as badly as I implied, but still doesn't go in the deck. Awesome.

[Tao]

Caller the Claw is terrible, because it means you've already played an army and yet for some reason have 2G open when your opponent casts removal. That in itself shouldn't be happening very often. Add in the fact that the critter sucks when your board isn't getting wiped out by Pyroclasm or Wrath and you have a terrible board card.

- So she sucks when your Board is NOT getting wrathed by Landstill? Yeah, these games when Landstill don't wrath/ Clasm really suck : / You win these games anyway, because they need their fucking wrath to stand a chance. If they hide behind a CoP: Red just keep your vial on three and attack into it, they will have to wrath at some point, and the next turn you win by Caller.
- Keeping 2G open is not the worst idea, not running blind into mass removal maybe an even better idea. Dodging CoP: Red, Sphere of Law, BEB, Tivadar's Crusade, Engineered Plagues, in fact whatever your opponent brings in from his sideboard is a great idea.

Maybe Ghostway is better, I didnt think of that, but this is not legal yet. Note that Ghostway can't be vialed, but it still sounds amazing.

[Amon Amarth]

2 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan


Why Hooligan over Tinkerer? Unless you expected to see the rise of 5/3 or Stax, why would you play him? Most of the time you will be blowing up Moxes, Vials and Needles. Also, since it can be easily missed, Hooligan does not do anything with a Warchief out. :(

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

1) Hooligan is stronger when you don't have targets. It's a 2/1 instead of a 1/2.

2) Hooligan doesn't need to untap if there's no Warchief in play.

3) Relative to point 2, Tin Street Hooligan can kill an active Jitte.



So, generally, given the chocie between a card that's worse with Warchief or one that's worse without Warchief, I would take the former. If you have Warchief in play, life should be pretty sweet already.

[Machinus]

1) Hooligan is stronger when you don't have targets. It's a 2/1 instead of a 1/2.

I actually think 1/2 is better, since piledriver will be doing most of the beats, and the extra toughtness trumps a lot of removal.

[Lego]

- So she sucks when your board is NOT getting Wrathed by Landstill? Yeah, these games when Landstill don't Wrath/Clasm really suck

Who is talking about Landstill? I think the answer is nobody but you. It's good that she's a narrow answer, but she shouldn't be a narrow answer to a deck that isn't played anymore.

That said, she may be more playable against Wombat. Vial for 3 isn't too bad anyway.

[Tao]

Who is talking about Landstill? I think the answer is nobody but you. It's good that she's a narrow answer, but she shouldn't be a narrow answer to a deck that isn't played anymore.

That said, she may be more playable against Wombat. Vial for 3 isn't too bad anyway.


Did you read my whole post? Would be a good idea.
I was not only talking about Landstill's Wrathes, I was talking about NQG-R's Clasms, Deadguys Plagues, NQG-W's Tivadar's Crusades, and Burning Wished Clasmes or other mass removal from a bazillion different decks and about that Caller is a good thing to play after a combat with blockers and dying Gobbos.

[Lego]

@ Tao: Pyroclasm can hit on turn 2, Crusade on turn 3, before Vial can be ramped up, and sometimes before you'll even have the mana for it. Even if they hold back for more threats to hit, you're rarely going to want to hold open 3 mana on the early turns.

[Sims]

Caller of the Claw is an Elf.

End of story.

[Artowis]

- So she sucks when your Board is NOT getting wrathed by Landstill? Yeah, these games when Landstill don't wrath/ Clasm really suck : / You win these games anyway, because they need their fucking wrath to stand a chance. If they hide behind a CoP: Red just keep your vial on three and attack into it, they will have to wrath at some point, and the next turn you win by Caller.
- Keeping 2G open is not the worst idea, not running blind into mass removal maybe an even better idea. Dodging CoP: Red, Sphere of Law, BEB, Tivadar's Crusade, Engineered Plagues, in fact whatever your opponent brings in from his sideboard is a great idea.

Maybe Ghostway is better, I didnt think of that, but this is not legal yet. Note that Ghostway can't be vialed, but it still sounds amazing.

Um yeah. As in you know, it's topdeck potential is crap, it's a shitty 2/2 for 2G and you're essentially giving your opponent a Time Walk whenever you hold back 2G. That's the main issue here. Almost anytime you hold back the mana to cast Caller, you put less pressure on the opponent and give him free reign.

Your going to lose anyway unless you already resolved Vial and it sticks around for a while.

Besides all that, IBA is actually right, still not a goblin.

[Tao]

IBA said nothing about Caller of the Claw. As no Goblin Deck plays any Goblins in the SB (except from 1-offs King, Sharpshooter) Corrupted Angel's post is absolutely senceless. Patron of the Akki f.e. is a non-goblin creature, too, and still it is a great SB-Card. And it is about holding Mana back, too.

About keeping Mana back: You actually don't lose the Tempo as you play it EoT and swing the next turn. If they kill non of your Goblins during your EoT-Step or their turn, the Board position shouldn't have changed too much, so you can just keep on hitting him.

Caller is really never a 2/2 for 2 Mana, she is always at least 2 2/2 creatures, but really often she is far more, like 4-6 Bears. And she dodges any Goblin specific hate like Plagues or Crusades.

[Lego]

How about we go ahead and play Living Death as well. That way we can sac all our guys, Living Death, sac some more dudes, and play the Caller. And at that point we should probably be playing Legionnaire.

[Bane of the Living]

Wow I stop reading the thread for a week or two to find people talking about Goblin Burrows and Caller of the Claw. Is this onslaught block or something? I think what gives the deck its broken power is the interaction between vial and the mana denial lands. It makes gobs have a near autowin against anything playing 3-4 colors save thresh. The thresh match isnt so bad if you can tie down their green sources, so no mongoose + bear. Or tie down the second white mana in fear of tiv's crusade.

I dont see how vialing out caller is better than vialing out ringleader. both give you a 2/2 body and I would guess 3-4 men each off their abilities. Yes the bears come into play unlike ringleaders catch, but I honestly think its a mistake to play any non goblin cards in the deck save a few spells.

If your having problems with Thresh do what I do, side in Jitte. It's something else they need to counter or needle, it pumps men to win battles, kills meddling mage, and it makes for sub optimal blocking situations where a jitte with 4 counters is on a fanatic needs to be blocked.

I think another long forgotten tool is Goblin Goon. He survives plague like no other, and beats the hell out of all creatures in thresh.

Theres no way I would ever pull the denial lands out of goblins.

[Sims]

No, my post is not "senceless," as you put it. But I shall break it down into different terms for you:

As a long-time Goblin player, and one of the people who attempted to port the long ago (Yes, go ahead, bring up that I didn't play Lackey. I stand behind the fact that you can, and I did, still smash face without it. Let it get banned.) I realized that one of the things the deck likes is Pro-active threats and answers. Cards that don't clutter your hand. Cards like Pithing Needle, for instance. Patron may be a non-Goblin with a reactive ability (Offering in response to a SGC dying perhaps?), but it's a pro-active creature in that you play it out and it proceeds to aid you in your need to beat a shit load of face.

Caller, on the other hand, is as reactive as it gets. Casting her main phase is pointless, and vialing her E.o.T is okay I suppose..... But I for one would rather spend a Vial for 3 Matroning up a Ringleader for when I counter up next turn, or dropping a 'Chief, or maybe even a sharpshooter to clear the board and set up my win. So, essentially, you're holding a bad Second Sunrise waiting for your opponent to cast some creature-sweeps that way you can suprise them. Danger of Cool Things? More. Than. Likely. There are better uses for your sideboard slots than the She-elf.

Edit: Damn you Bane for posting while I was typing..... Mana-Denial lands.... Fuck port, Landstill is rarely played and that's the reason the card was put in the deck to begin with. Threshold is the match you need to worry about most, and Port sucks in that matchup. Goblins should win most of it's other matchups with or without Port. Wasteland I like in the Thresh matchup, but it's a Tempo loss that is hard to deal with since they can cantrip into other, you cannot. They also have the option of just fetching up a basic land, and leaving your Wasteland as a colorless producer..... Ever run with a mountain + waste + lackey + fat hand and either draw 0 land or another waste/port while they fetch into basic forest -> mongoose? Lands that stick around and have useful effects (pumping your Fanatics and making them trade with a Werebear?) seem much more useful, atleast in the initial testing, and won't really hinder your other matchups that badly. Jitte is also an option; although I've never particularly cared for the card in Goblins, I won't deny the fact that it can simply win you games. Also, Goblin Goon is bad. He cannot attack or block unless you have more creatures than they do, so after a Plague or Clasm, he's useless.

[calosso]

The reason goblin burrows is in vial goblins over port is because all port does is make them use there draw spells during there draw step an nothing else. Burrow on the other hand allows all your creatures to trade with mongesse and werebears. I personally enjoy when my fanatics can trade with werebears.

[Bane of the Living]

Port is still good if your using it to tap green and white lands, thus non instant effects. If they have a Mental Note or a Brainstorm, so be it. They didnt get to cast a bear again. Not till they find more green. I dont seem to have a problem doing this, do other people?

I'm sorry trading a wasteland for a land in a 3 color deck is amazing if you have vial in play and still good without it. Multiple wastelands/ports can also be a blessing where multiple goblin burrows/pits is going to lose you games.

I also dont fear bears so much when I'm playing 4 gempalms, 4 fanatics, 1 sparky, and 1 king.

Why do you feel you need to give driver trample for 3 mana as opposed to playing Pyromancer and winning the game? I feel like crying when I dont even see 1 copy in decks.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Because the cards that give your creatures +2/+0 and +1/+1 and Trample are uncounterable, free, tap for mana, and take the slot of otherwise generally useless in this deck in this metagame mana-denial lands. None of these things are true of Goblin Pyromancer or Jitte.

[Bane of the Living]

By playing the pump lands your playing more waste targets for your opponent. Waste vs waste is ok as long as your not mana screwed cause you can waste one of their lands, hopefully.

I see your point and I think burrows might not be too bad, but pits will also need green mana to activate. Another strain before its useful.

[Sims]

I'm also a little skeptical of Pits, i was focusing more on Burrows over Port.

But hey, anything is worth a shot at the test gauntlet.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Everyone is skeptical of the Pits. You think I thought Pits was an awesome card? Fuck no. I hated Guildpact when it came out. Play the damned thing. Fuck, it beats Silver Knight. Rage-Pit on a Piledriver. Bamf. Silly Silver Knight, you're not doing nobody no good.

It also means that you have as many critical Pithing Needle targets against Threshold as they have Needles, on top of your Tin Street Hooligans.

[Bun Bun, Lord of Darkness]

Bane, I do like your argument that Mana Denial lands and Vial are good together, but the same is true of the Burrows and Pits. And in general, I'd say finding G for the pits won't be hard with 7 fetches.

I do, however, find myself slightly worried about getting Wasted out of a game by a Vial Goblin deck that's living in the past.

[calosso]

Has anyone tested goblin flotilla in the sideboard? He is a 2/2 islandwalker he costs R2 and if you don't pay red at the beginning of combat all the creatures that block him gain first strike. He seems pretty solid against gro since he evades through all there creatures.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Why the hell would you go and take THE BEST DECK in the format and try to change it?? has the meta changed that badly as to where in NEEDS to adapt to hate? No sir, it doesn't. Stop talking about caller of the claw. When you play caller of the claw it 1) doesnt pump up Piledriver in any way. 2) goblin burrows doesnt work with it. 3) Ringleader doesnt catch it. 4) Matron doesnt tutor. 5) warchief doesnt give it haste. 6) Lackey doesnt work with it. 7) Goblin king doesnt pump them OR give it mountainwalk. 8) Incinerator doesnt work with it. 9) you cant use bear tokens with SGC. 10) Patron of the Akki doesnt pump them. 11) Pyromancer doesnt pump them. 12) Its GREEN, not red. 13) Its not a goblin. It will always suck. Do the world a favor, and play goblins like it was meant to: Without silly elves. As for Burrows over Port, that is also an incredibly pitiful option. Why would it be bad to keep your opponent off Wrath, Infest, Pyroclasm, Tiv's Crusade mana?

So, what its comes down to is, suggestions like that kill tier 1 decks

[Obfuscate Freely]

You seem to lack a fundamental understanding of how Magic decks are made. They aren't created by God and handed down to the unwashed masses in His own fucking image. Decks are developed and tuned by the people who play them, some of which are posting in this very forum.

I doubt I will be able to convey to you exactly how mind-numbingly idiotic it is to actually berate people for trying out new ideas, even(!) in Goblins.

As if your tyrade against innovation wasn't bad enough, your arguments against the cards being discussed are awful. Goblin Burrows is a great replacement for Port in some metagames. Hell, it might even be better than Port against mass removal. Caller of the Claw is more debateable, but it certainly deserves testing before you so vehemently dismiss it simply because it isn't a Goblin.

Stifling new ideas kills tier 1 decks, not the opposite.

[Zilla]

Stifling new ideas kills tier 1 decks, not the opposite.
QFT. To suggest that Goblins doesn't have any problems in the modern metagame is preposterous. More and more decks are being created that just crush it. The two easiest ways to do so are to: 1) use creatures that are bigger than Goblins' so they're forced to make bad trades with you and 2) use mass removal.

Examples would be:

Thresh, which has bigger threats than Goblins, and has a generally positive matchup against it. It also brings in mass removal from the sideboard.

Rifter, which has mass removal x infinity.

RG Beats, which has much bigger threats than Goblins does.

etc.

Burrows helps to fix the "bigger threats" problem. It's not some arbitrary change to an already perfect deck. It's a genuine attempt at improving the deck's weaknesses in an evolving metagame.

Caller of the Claw (which I agree is a highly questionable option) at least attempts to improve upon a major problem for this deck, being mass removal. Due to its reactive nature in a purely aggressive deck, and that it is a non-land, non-Goblin card, I think it's likely not going to pan out well in testing, but there's no harm in trying.

If Caller doesn't work out, there's always Living Death/Patriarch's Bidding to consider...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The pump-lands are actually surprisingly good against White-based control as well. They make Humility less crushing, and mean you can slow play one threat at a time- the other day in testing I made an opponent Wrath of God a Mogg Fanatic that was dealing 4 a turn.

Caller of the Claw I'm skeptical of myself. I think it's a strong card in general but it's not maindeckable, and Flashfires seems much better against anything casting Wrath of God.

[Slay]

So IBA, have you completely given up beating combo decks without a nutty Lackey draw? That's what the changes seem to suggest.
-Slay

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So IBA, have you completely given up beating combo decks without a nutty Lackey draw? That's what the changes seem to suggest.
-Slay


I think you're failing to recall that my role in the Legacy metagame is to make David Gearhart's life easier at all points.

[Amon Amarth]

I think you're failing to recall that my role in the Legacy metagame is to make David Gearhart's life easier at all points.

WTF?

On a more serious note, how good were mana denial lands against Solidarity anyways? Wasteland is dead, and barring the insane Lackey draws, I would always be wanting to advance my board position instead of negating theirs via Port.

The rise of decks with bigger guys to try and beat up Goblins are seemingly everywhere: Zoo, Threshold, you name it. Skargg, and Burrows do seem to solve that problem.

[Zilla]

On a more serious note, how good were mana denial lands against Solidarity anyways? Wasteland is dead, and barring the insane Lackey draws, I would always be wanting to advance my board position instead of negating theirs via Port.
Both Wasteland and Port aren't that useful against Solidarity. Every card in their deck is an instant. If you Port them they can just use the mana in response.

I'm not really sure what Slay originally meant, and I'm not sure what IBA's response meant.

[Slay]

Both Wasteland and Port aren't that useful against Solidarity. Every card in their deck is an instant. If you Port them they can just use the mana in response.

I'm not really sure what Slay originally meant, and I'm not sure what IBA's response meant.

Port is useful against Solidarity. If only because it cuts down on the mana they can use while going off by a bit. This slight disruption can be compounded with things like Blasts and Pillar. Lackey + Port is probably the best chance for the Goblin player to win the Solidarity matchup. Cutting down on that just makes the matchup worse.

Port/Waste are useful against other combo decks, like Enchantress and Nausea. When Enchantress doesn't have mana problems, it crushes aggro decks. When you waste a Sanctum and Port a Plains, Enchantress is going to have a much harder time keeping Elephant Grass mana up or keeping Confinement lock alive. And let's not even consider how bad you savage up mana-tight decks like Spring Tide and Nausea when you play a Port or a Waste.

All in all, the changes IBA made are pretty good against aggro decks and control decks, but all but ensure a sweep when you play against a deck which doesn't care what stupid pumps you're doing with your critters.
-Slay

[Dr.ugs]

Excuse me, I don´t have anything usefull to add to the Vial Goblins Thread but in the last month every one is creating decks and claiming that it beats Goblins consistantly(Just look at the Open and NaD forums).

Is it true that Goblins has fallen out of favour because every one is preparing against it and because it doesn´t have a lot of flexibility to counter all the hate or is it just false and all the people that claimed that their Decks beat goblins have not tested enough or against competitive players?

[Amon Amarth]

I don't believe that Goblins has fallen out of favor, in fact it is as popular as ever. While new decks are being made to beat up on Goblins, it is far easier for us to counter those said decks with efficient sideboard cards. You have all the answers you need to deal with lands, creatures, graveyards, artifacts and those are only the on color cards! When said decks start posing problems, and posting numbers you can modify your deck accordingly. Small changes like MD Goblin Tinkerer/Goblin Vandal can make a world of difference in the correct metagame, and dont fundamentally change the way the decks plays. One of the strengths of the little red bastards is that they can do almost everything.

[Zilla]

What Amon says is partially true, but doesn't account for the whole story. The other side of things is that even if there are tons of decks being created that smash Goblins, those decks must still perform well against other decks in a diverse metagame, and if they succeed at that, they'll still take at least a couple months to catch on in popularity. When there are as few major tournaments as we've had, the metagame is very slow to evolve. If Goblins really was on the outs, we wouldn't actually know it for weeks or months.

[Jolfer]

Right now basically everyone build decks to beat goblins (MD and/or SB) and from this I think goblins are starting to loose more and more. I think it will take a while for people to realize that goblins are no a longer tier 1 (like it did with landstill) and once that happens people will stop building decks to beat goblins. But then goblins will keep coming back (and winning) because they rock when they're unexpected. So in the long run, I don't think goblins will be going anywhere (until a huge change in the format), they'll just have good streaks and bad streaks that depend on how prepared given metas are for them.

[Amon Amarth]

Right now basically everyone build decks to beat goblins (MD and/or SB) and from this I think goblins are starting to loose more and more. I think it will take a while for people to realize that goblins are no a longer tier 1 (like it did with landstill) and once that happens people will stop building decks to beat goblins. But then goblins will keep coming back (and winning) because they rock when they're unexpected. So in the long run, I don't think goblins will be going anywhere (until a huge change in the format), they'll just have good streaks and bad streaks that depend on how prepared given metas are for them.

Comparisons between Goblins and Landstill are incredibly flawed. Landstill was slow as a deck could get, lacked any sort of "true" bombs, bad card drawing engines, was a deck full of wrong answers, and in general failed on infinite levels.

Goblins can plow through the hate thrown at it. Aynone who has played the deck extensively can attest to this. You are describing Goblins as some sort of metagame deck, which is incorrect. Goblins is the premiere aggro deck for Legacy. I don' t see that changing anytime soon.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Excuse me, I don´t have anything usefull to add to the Vial Goblins Thread but in the last month every one is creating decks and claiming that it beats Goblins consistantly(Just look at the Open and NaD forums).

People have been doing that since August. It's almost universally untrue.



All in all, the changes IBA made are pretty good against aggro decks and control decks, but all but ensure a sweep when you play against a deck which doesn't care what stupid pumps you're doing with your critters.
-Slay


I'm fine with that.

[Amon Amarth]

All in all, the changes IBA made are pretty good against aggro decks and control decks, but all but ensure a sweep when you play against a deck which doesn't care what stupid pumps you're doing with your critters.
-Slay



I'm fine with that.

Where are all the decks that don't care about what creatures you have on the board? I have seen very few combo decks that are even worth playing. They are either too slow or too inconsistent. They also don't care about Port or Waste either.

[Lego]

I play Spring Tide, and honestly I'd be more worried about the pump lands (which can potentially create a better clock) than Port and Waste (which do absolutely 0)

The same goes for Solidarity. Both Port and Waste are useless, and I'd rather you leave them in than play the pump lands, which can effect the game state. The same is not as true for Nausea or Iggy, which rely more heavily on their lands.

For the most part though, I'd say the pump lands are better against aggro and possibly control, and aren't always useless against combo (where Port and Waste often are, at least against the top tier combo).

[Jolfer]

Comparisons between Goblins and Landstill are incredibly flawed. Landstill was slow as a deck could get, lacked any sort of "true" bombs, bad card drawing engines, was a deck full of wrong answers, and in general failed on infinite levels.

Goblins can plow through the hate thrown at it. Aynone who has played the deck extensively can attest to this. You are describing Goblins as some sort of metagame deck, which is incorrect. Goblins is the premiere aggro deck for Legacy. I don' t see that changing anytime soon.

I wasn't comparing the two decks at all I'm comparing how people will take a while to realize that a deck is no longer tier 1. The fact that the decks are different have nothing to do with comparison.

As for goblins beating any deck that is thrown at it, I 100% disagree. You see goblins can't hate out all hate against them, because there is too much of it and they just don't have answers to everything. For example goblins can't "plow through" silver knight (with ease) and sometimes decks just pack too much hate (for example a deck packing Jitte, Plague Spitter, Engineered Plauge and Swords to Plowshare). I know this is case because I have made many decks that have postive matchups vs. goblins. For example angel stompy and neo-sui both have very favored matchups vs. goblins and aren't awful against other decks of the format either. I'm not claiming that these decks are going to be tier 1 decks, just that most decks that are currently be developed; are being devolped with a postive mathup against goblins in mind.

[calosso]

As for goblins beating any deck that is thrown at it, I 100% disagree. You see goblins can't hate out all hate against them, because there is too much of it and they just don't have answers to everything. For example goblins can't "plow through" silver knight (with ease) and sometimes decks just pack too much hate (for example a deck packing Jitte, Plague Spitter, Engineered Plauge and Swords to Plowshare). I know this is case because I have made many decks that have postive matchups vs. goblins. For example angel stompy and neo-sui both have very favored matchups vs. goblins and aren't awful against other decks of the format either. I'm not claiming that these decks are going to be tier 1 decks, just that most decks that are currently be developed; are being devolped with a postive mathup against goblins in mind.

First of all what deck runs jitte, plague spitter, STP,and enginered plague?
Also with any splash goblins can easily deal with hate from white weenie, or sui.

These are the splashes goblins uses. These are some of the possiblites people use in there sideboards to deal with E.Plague and WW:

Black splash
Dranlu's crusade-E.Plague,silver knight
Diabolic Edict-silver knight
Cabal theropy

greens splash
Naturalize-plague
Caller of the claw- wrath affects
Skarg the rage pitts- Silver knight

white splash
Disenchant- E.Plague
STP- silver knight
Shared triumph- Plague, silver knight, plague spitter

Mono Red
Jitte in the board -deals with silver knight
Anarchy- deals with WW
PAtron of Akki- Plague
G. Kings- Plague


I have listed a few of the cards that goblins can use aganist all that hate. I am not saying that goblins is not favored against every match-up, but goblins has the tools to deal with all the hate decks are running.

Excuse me for the bad grammer.

[Zilla]

Jitte in the board -deals with silver knight
No it doesn't. Jitte will never get counters on it, unless it's already got counters before Silver Knight comes into play, in which case you're probably already winning.

[Jolfer]

B/w neo-sui and W/b angel stompy use all of those cards. And just because goblins can answer certain threats does not mean it has the upper hand in those matchups. For example I could win via a first turn sneak attacked serra avatar, but it probably won't happen.

Also if goblins has to gear their whole SB to deal with one or two problem matchups then their matchups against other (more commonly played) decks will get worse. You have to realize that I'm not claiming any of these decks (that have an obvious positive mathcup vs. goblins) are going to be the best deck in format, just that goblins are in no way untouchable, as you seem to claim it. And that goblins are starting to lose more often because people are designing decks specifically to beat them (because it is most played deck in the format).

[Bryant Cook]

Skarg the rage pitts- Silver knight
How does that deal with silver knight? It still has that problem with pro-red, and don't tell me piledriver with trample by then it's a win more card.

-Excuse me for my correctness.

[Amon Amarth]

B/w neo-sui and W/b angel stompy use all of those cards. And just because goblins can answer certain threats does not mean it has the upper hand in those matchups. For example I could win via a first turn sneak attacked serra avatar, but it probably won't happen.

Also if goblins has to gear their whole SB to deal with one or two problem matchups then their matchups against other (more commonly played) decks will get worse. You have to realize that I'm not claiming any of these decks (that have an obvious positive mathcup vs. goblins) are going to be the best deck in format, just that goblins are in no way untouchable, as you seem to claim it. And that goblins are starting to lose more often because people are designing decks specifically to beat them (because it is most played deck in the format).

Deadguy has a bad matchup versus Goblins.

Goblins does not have to dedicate their entire sideboard to beating certain matches. Cards such as Needle, Disenchant/Naturalize,and Tormod's Crypt hit most everything in the format. The other slots can be used to deal with metagame concerns, like REB if there is lots of Tog in your meta.

No one has claimed the deck is unbeatable, just the fact that it is resilient enough to beat the hate more often than not.

EDIT: WTF @ Plague Spitter. That card is terrible against Goblins. Plague is infinitely better.

[Zilla]

How does that deal with silver knight? It still has that problem with pro-red, and don't tell me piledriver with trample by then it's a win more card.

-Excuse me for my correctness.
Actually, you're sort of incorrect here. Because of the +1/+1, it means that you can attack with all your x/2 goblins without having to lose a creature to Silver Knight every turn. Part of the reason that Silver Knight is an effective tool in this matchup is that it wins wars of attrition, and can effectively hold off an entire force by itself. Rage Pits weakens this ability a great deal. It's irrellevant if the Knight happens to be equipped with Jitte or SoFI, but that's a different matter.


No one has claimed the deck is unbeatable, just the fact that it is resilient enough to beat the hate more often than not.
It's true that Goblins has a remarkable ability to win through hate. it does have problems against certain strategies that aren't dedicated specific hate to it, though. Aggressive decks with larger creatures, for example, consistently do well against it, because it's not a pinpointed strategy of hate, but rather an overarching paradigm with which Goblins cannot cope. One example is Zilla Stompy, which was developed with Goblins specifically in mind. That said, Goblins has a better game against a lot of other decks in the format, so even the decks that do well against it specifically may not do as well overall.

Even so, as you see more and more decks being developed that answer Goblins with the entire deck as opposed to a few hate cards, you will see its win percentages drop significantly.

[Jolfer]

Deadguy has a bad matchup versus Goblins.

Goblins does not have to dedicate their entire sideboard to beating certain matches. Cards such as Needle, Disenchant/Naturalize,and Tormod's Crypt hit most everything in the format. The other slots can be used to deal with metagame concerns, like REB if there is lots of Tog in your meta.

No one has claimed the deck is unbeatable, just the fact that it is resilient enough to beat the hate more often than not.

EDIT: WTF @ Plague Spitter. That card is terrible against Goblins. Plague is infinitely better.

I never mentioned Deadguy. Just because a deck has black and white in it does mean that it is pikula.dec at all.

Those cards do answer most threats in the format, but not all. In order for goblins to have answers to other high threats they would have to a much more specific SB (consisting of such cards calosso listed).

You said, "Goblins can plow through the hate thrown at it. Aynone who has played the deck extensively can attest to this". That sounds to me like you're claiming that goblins can beat basically any deck in the format, which is simply not the case.

I have never once said that goblins are bad, just that they are on a downfall. The deck to beat right now is goblins, so people are going to design decks to beat it. Once goblins popularity declines and people stop building decks specifically to beat them, they will be a lot better again.

EDIT: Spitter is a freakin' house, are you insane? Spitter kills all x/1 creatures. Plague may be good vs. goblins but it is utterly useless against most other decks. Spitter has targets in most decks (goblin lackey, birds of paradise, dark confidant, grim lavamacer, savannah lions ect..) and if it dies/is flashed back from threapy it can have a wrath of god effect (specfically on goblins). Did I forget to mention it has feet? It's never a dead card because it can swing for 2 each turn (dealing 3 damage a turn or 3 mana isn't awful if it has no creature targets for the ping). Also, in the specific goblin matchup SBing in Plague and having Spitters MD gives you at least 8 cards goblins really don't want to see and the odds of drawing 1 or more of 8 cards is much better than 1 or more of 4 cards.

[Amon Amarth]

It's true that Goblins has a remarkable ability to win through hate. it does have problems against certain strategies that aren't dedicated specific hate to it, though. Aggressive decks with larger creatures, for example, consistently do well against it, because it's not a pinpointed strategy of hate, but rather an overarching paradigm with which Goblins cannot cope. One example is Zilla Stompy, which was developed with Goblins specifically in mind. That said, Goblins has a better game against a lot of other decks in the format, so even the decks that do well against it specifically may not do as well overall.

Even so, as you see more and more decks being developed that answer Goblins with the entire deck as opposed to a few hate cards, you will see its win percentages drop significantly.

Very true. Mid range aggro decks have historically beaten weenie strategies. Look at Fires era Type 2, all weenies decks, including Rebels, were outclassed by the huge fat that deck ran.

I am not disagreeing with the assertion that the deck does have problems with decks that can execute their own gameplan that trumps Goblins strategy naturally, such as Zilla Stompy as you have mentioned. As these decks are developed and gain attention then Goblins will adjust. Lose popularity, yeah probably, but not become unviable.

[Zilla]

As these decks are developed and gain attention then Goblins will adjust. Lose popularity, yeah probably, but not become unviable.
I don't think anyone was saying that Goblins would be unviable, per se. Just less pervasive, and in some metagames, less thoroughly competitive. Pretty much the only thing that will make Goblins unviable is a consistent turn 2 combo that doesn't lose to the rest of the field. And if that happens, you can almost certainly expect bannings.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

How does that deal with silver knight? It still has that problem with pro-red, and don't tell me piledriver with trample by then it's a win more card.

-Excuse me for my correctness.



If you mean turning the card that stops your offensive from getting through into a mini Healing Salve each turn, then yes, it's win more, in the sense that it wins more games than if Silver Knight did consistently kill Piledrivers on the block.

[Eldariel]

How does that deal with silver knight? It still has that problem with pro-red, and don't tell me piledriver with trample by then it's a win more card.

-Excuse me for my correctness.

So, your opponent controls Skarrg and attacks with Piledriver and 2 other Gobbos. Do you block the Piledriver and take it all-2 (like, 7-8 points), or kill a Gobbo and take the Piledriver, also letting your opponent to use their mana on more creatures? The point is, the Piledriver doesn't die either way and it's going to connect regardless of the Knight. Goblins can afford to lose their guys as long as the Piledriver gets through, since they aim to deal damage to you, not to win any pointless card advantage battles. Normally, the problem is that the Piledriver can't deal damage due to FS-block. Skarrg just reverses the sitiuation. Suddenly Piledriver can deal damage, regardless of any and all Silver Knights, Galina's Knights or anything like that. As a longtime WW-player, I must tell you that whenever my opponent has a piledriver, I'll trade with it if I can't kill it. If I suddenly can't prevent the 8-10 damage from the Piledriver, I'm in a very bad position, because I'm the control and Gobbo is a deck with reach. If they drop you to 6 or so, it's very easy to just drop SCG/Sharpshooter and burn you out.

[Bryant Cook]

So, your opponent controls Skarrg and attacks with Piledriver and 2 other Gobbos. Do you block the Piledriver and take it all-2 (like, 7-8 points), or kill a Gobbo and take the Piledriver, also letting your opponent to use their mana on more creatures? The point is, the Piledriver doesn't die either way and it's going to connect regardless of the Knight. Goblins can afford to lose their guys as long as the Piledriver gets through, since they aim to deal damage to you, not to win any pointless card advantage battles. Normally, the problem is that the Piledriver can't deal damage due to FS-block. Skarrg just reverses the sitiuation. Suddenly Piledriver can deal damage, regardless of any and all Silver Knights, Galina's Knights or anything like that. As a longtime WW-player, I must tell you that whenever my opponent has a piledriver, I'll trade with it if I can't kill it. If I suddenly can't prevent the 8-10 damage from the Piledriver, I'm in a very bad position, because I'm the control and Gobbo is a deck with reach. If they drop you to 6 or so, it's very easy to just drop SCG/Sharpshooter and burn you out.

If you have a piledriver and 2 other goblins and all the angel stompy player has is a silverknight you're more than likely in a winning position anyways. Letting the with skarg is not a bad thing BTW because of they are using there mana every turn which makes goblins alot less scary for the Angel Stompy player. Not to mention you have to consider what each player could draw to reverse the position of the field.

[Tao]

So we finally have the conclusion that paying 2G in your turn to get around a single blocker is great, but paying 2G (or vialing for 3) to dodge Mass Removal, CoPs and Plagues in the opponents turn is the worst thing one can imagine.

Anyway, Skargg is really strong with piledriver. The deck plays totally different if you have Burrows and Skargg out, need more testing if this is actually good or bad.

[frogboy]

If you have a piledriver and 2 other goblins and all the angel stompy player has is a silverknight you're more than likely in a winning position anyways.

This isn't particularly accurate - in this scenario, you're gonna trade Piledriver for four damage, which isn't a good trade by any stretch of the imagination. You'd need to set up a SGC or Kiki-Jiki board and still have them have just the Knight (and no Jitte) if you're going to win this.

[Amon Amarth]

So we finally have the conclusion that paying 2G in your turn to get around a single blocker is great, but paying 2G (or vialing for 3) to dodge Mass Removal, CoPs and Plagues in the opponents turn is the worst thing one can imagine.

Anyway, Skargg is really strong with piledriver. The deck plays totally different if you have Burrows and Skargg out, need more testing if this is actually good or bad.

Well one of those is proactive the other is super duper reactive, that makes a world of difference.

They, pump lands, don't change how the deck plays fundamentally. They give it a boost in the combat department though.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

More importantly, they're cutting land slots anyway, still leaving you with 25 or so actual Goblins that make every other card in your deck stronger.


Edit to avoid a double post;




I'm currently doing preliminary testing on a build similar to my previous post (minus the basic forest for the 4th Taiga, but otherwise the same except for)

-4 Mogg Fanatic
+4 Goblin Grappler.


I realize it's a dark day for veterans everywhere when Fanatic is suggested as cutable, but my reasoning is thus;

1) Nothing that's not another Goblin or Birds of Paradise has Toughness of 1 anymore.

2) Against creatures without toughness 1, Grappler can clear blockers to let Piledriver or Lackey through, and

3) Grappler can turn into an assasin with Burrows/Skarg mid to late game.


Testing is still preliminary, but bears promise.

[Alfred]

The problem with Goblin Grappler is that Provoke targets creatures, meaning that you can't target Trolls, Silver Knights, Galinas Knights or anything with protection from red.

[Amon Amarth]

I'm currently doing preliminary testing on a build similar to my previous post (minus the basic forest for the 4th Taiga, but otherwise the same except for)

-4 Mogg Fanatic
+4 Goblin Grappler.


I realize it's a dark day for veterans everywhere when Fanatic is suggested as cutable, but my reasoning is thus;

1) Nothing that's not another Goblin or Birds of Paradise has Toughness of 1 anymore.

2) Against creatures without toughness 1, Grappler can clear blockers to let Piledriver or Lackey through, and

3) Grappler can turn into an assasin with Burrows/Skarg mid to late game.


Testing is still preliminary, but bears promise.

Have you considered Frenzied Goblin? It does not die like Grappler would, so it is reuseable. The ability to Provoke a guy and kill it with the help of a pump land could be good though. Thoughts?

EDIT: The red activation cost might be prohibitive in the early game.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The problem with Goblin Grappler is that Provoke targets creatures, meaning that you can't target Trolls, Silver Knights, Galinas Knights or anything with protection from red.


While that's certainly a problem, it's not really one that Mogg Fanatic adresses anyway. The point isn't to adress situations you can't fix, but those that you can.

[Eldariel]

This isn't particularly accurate - in this scenario, you're gonna trade Piledriver for four damage, which isn't a good trade by any stretch of the imagination. You'd need to set up a SGC or Kiki-Jiki board and still have them have just the Knight (and no Jitte) if you're going to win this.

Pray, what're you talking about? Skarrg boosts it +1/+1 in addition to Trample, making your Piledriver take the 2 points of FS-damage on his 3-toughess butt like a good bitch, and still asking for more, while trampling over for 4 points. You lose a trivial Goblin, or opponent has a mini-Healing Salve each turn. I'm personally fine with either as long as I'm getting damage through and my opponent is on the highway to hell, especially with a few hasty additions.


And wastedlife: If you don't have skarrg and all you have in play is 2 general Gobbos (say, Siege-Gang tokens) and Piledriver, you're going down, and pretty damned fast too.

And finally Tao: I believe you're referring to Caller of the Claw, which isn't a land. That's a huge difference right there, you'll have to weaken your deck to fit in Caller, while the overall strength of your Ringleaders and all tribal effects remains constant with or without Skarrg (Skarrg of course allowing you to capitalize on the aggressive side of your deck, while Ports and Wastes allow you to try and keep the opponent from interfering).

[Bane of the Living]

How is Rage Pits going to help against Silver Knight in the way you say he will? Are you really going to waste 3 mana a turn to attack through the knight. You would need a pretty lucky game going with vials so you can still put gobs into play. Then Angel Stompy could always waste your taiga or something and leave you with your useless janky land. Wasnt the old strategy against knights to sit for a turn or 2 and build an army? Maybe drop a Pyromancer for the win??

Did I forget to mention that multiple Rage Pits and Burrows are GARBAGE!?
Everytime I shuffle that version up on apprentice I'm pulling 3 of these lands a game. Thats way too many. F that.

Multiple Wastelands can just win games. Statistically Wasteland and ports win goblins more games than any other card in the deck. I tested alot before Philly and decided not to play Gobs unless I found some ports to use. At no point did I think to myself, well I'll just use goblin burrows... Seriously, if this is good tech, why have I never seen a top 8 gobs with those lands in it?

Infact, maybe someone advocating this change should at least go to a weekly tournament with it and show me some proof of its viability. Cause in my apprentice games, its seeming like noob jank.

[Zilla]

How is Rage Pits going to help against Silver Knight in the way you say he will? Are you really going to waste 3 mana a turn to attack through the knight. You would need a pretty lucky game going with vials so you can still put gobs into play. Then Angel Stompy could always waste your taiga or something and leave you with your useless janky land.
Angel Stompy doesn't run Wasteland. It does have Needle in the board for Rage Pits, though.

[Bane of the Living]

@Zilla
A lot of versions I play against do. You cant just say people dont play a certain card in a archtype, it might not be true all the time. Especially when it comes to cards like Wasteland. AS is a fairly easy and inexpensive deck to build. Why wouldnt people play Wasteland if they arent crazy source bastards like us? Most people in my meta seem to be playing 3 wastelands and 3 tombs.

I havent looked through the 30 something pages of the thread but how in depth was discussion over Burning Wish? I've been playing around with a list that has 4 vials, 3 wish as its none goblins. It doesnt seem to take away too much tribal, and its not always as slow as one would think when you have lackey or vial going. It's the same cost to port a land, except your finding an answer to Rune of Protection, Silver Knight, or Worship/Mongoose. It allows you to get artifact/enchantment removal, and things like geddon without needing to side in multiple copies and screw up tribal that way.

Whats being discussed now is a major retooling on the way goblins are played. Removing denial lands for pump lands. The best arguement for this type of change is surely that the land exchange doesnt effect the tribal theme. But at what loss? I think its too much. Burning Wish with 4-6 sb targets might be the way to go.

@TheInfamousBearAssasin
I've also been toying with cutting fanatic. He's the weakest card in the deck, why not? Grappler might be a good weapon, it's true he lets lackey and driver in for a hit, and I could see multiples with ringleader and warcheif winning some games super cheap. I used the spots for more utility gobs like sparksmith and goblin tinkerer. That takes away from the lackey buddy system, but grappler might actually improve it.

[SillyMetalGAT]

I've been playing this deck since February of 2004 at Amrod's in Syracuse.... and everytime I played it, I tried a little tweak. Whether it was as extreme as Food Chain Goblins or as little as Goblin Goon, I could never top 4 at my local tournaments. Then one day, there was a playset of ports sitting in the glass container at my store. So I scooped them up and played with them. I ended up placing 4th because I had to play U/W Angel Stompy.... but port won me the round against both Spring Tide and Mad Tog (May I also say that Mad Tog had top 4'ed the last 8 sundays... the deck was damn near undefeated and I played him with other versions.) It felt like Christmas to swing with lackey, drop Ringleader, then port my opponent on their 2nd turn! The way I see it, Port is to Goblins like Time Walk is to Vintage. It is your friggin Time Walk, so why not use it?

@Bane: What about goblin cohort? I play a goblin every turn, and im sure everyone else does. Maybe even Skirk Prospector. 2nd Warchief is a good make up for no turn 1 lackey or vial.

[Bane of the Living]

@Bane: What about goblin cohort? I play a goblin every turn, and im sure everyone else does. Maybe even Skirk Prospector. 2nd Warchief is a good make up for no turn 1 lackey or vial.

This makes me wonder? How many people keep a hand with no vial or lackey? I usually try to go to 6 cards to find one. If the hand is decent from there I'll keep it. I usually dont regret this tactic. Anyone else do little tricks like that?

Skirk might be good but I think I'll give grappler a try first.

[Zilla]

@Zilla
A lot of versions I play against do. You cant just say people dont play a certain card in a archtype, it might not be true all the time. Especially when it comes to cards like Wasteland. AS is a fairly easy and inexpensive deck to build. Why wouldnt people play Wasteland if they arent crazy source bastards like us? Most people in my meta seem to be playing 3 wastelands and 3 tombs.
The only way to support that kind of change in Angel Stompy's manabase is to drop Chrome Moxen for Wasteland. It can't afford to drop white sources for it. In dropping Moxen, you significantly hinder the speed and tempo of the deck, particularly when it comes to casting and equipping your threats. This negatively impact the deck's overall function. Angel Stompy is almost purely aggro. Adding in a few disruptive elements is going to harm your good matchups without a lot of benefit to your bad ones. In any case, this is off topic here. If you want to discuss it further, quote me and pick it up in the Angel Stompy thread please.

[Jolfer]

The only way to support that kind of change in Angel Stompy's manabase is to drop Chrome Moxen for Wasteland. It can't afford to drop white sources for it. In dropping Moxen, you significantly hinder the speed and tempo of the deck, particularly when it comes to casting and equipping your threats. This negatively impact the deck's overall function. Angel Stompy is almost purely aggro. Adding in a few disruptive elements is going to harm your good matchups without a lot of benefit to your bad ones. In any case, this is off topic here. If you want to discuss it further, quote me and pick it up in the Angel Stompy thread please.

I think you misunderstand what he's trying to say. He isn't arguing that wasteland SHOULD be in an in optimal build of angel stompy, he's just stating that some people (specifically around him) DO play with wasteland in their angel stompy builds. You have to remember that most people do not play 100% net-decked decks.

[SillyMetalGAT]

@ Jolfer:
If you want to discuss it further, quote me and pick it up in the Angel Stompy thread please.

'Nuff said. Now, as for the fanatic slot, does it have to be another 1-drop goblin? Why can't that spot be designated as open. I personally don't like fanatic in goblins, mainly because he is in fact, the weakest goblin in the deck.

[Zilla]

@ Jolfer:

'Nuff said. Now, as for the fanatic slot, does it have to be another 1-drop goblin? Why can't that spot be designated as open. I personally don't like fanatic in goblins, mainly because he is in fact, the weakest goblin in the deck.
I can't believe what I'm hearing. Fanatic is som important for clearing first turn Lackey blockers. Sure, they're weaker in the late game, but they have a role to serve and they serve it well.

On a side note, I tested Grappler in the Fantic slot about a year ago and it sucked ass. It seems like it would be a good trick with Lackey, but by the time it would actually be useful, your opponent has has either removed Lackey or played more than one blocker. It's even less good when you consider that a great many creatures in the format can either tap for an ability in response or are untargetable.

[Amon Amarth]

@ Pumplands:

Whether or not you run them is a metagame choice. In a creature filled meta Burrows and Pits rock; if your metagame is filled with decks severely hampered by the mana denial lands, play them.

@Godzilla:

What one mana 1/1's would Fanatic take care of?
B/w: 0 (Ritualed creatures, sans Hippy, don't want to block because they are all x/1's)
Threshold: 0
Goblins: A bunch, but Lackey is lackluster here.
R/w Rifter: 0
Solidarity: 0

Out of all the top decks in the format, only Goblins really has any targets to Lava Dart. I am not saying that Mogg Fanatic should be removed but the arguement you gave was a weak defense.

I have played many games where Fanatic was actually a factor in dealing the last point of damage. Whether or not I could have claimed victory sooner if Fanatic was a Grappler or not, I don't know.

[Zilla]

@Godzilla:

What one mana 1/1's would Fanatic take care of?
B/w: 0 (Ritualed creatures, sans Hippy, don't want to block because they are all x/1's)
Threshold: 0
Goblins: A bunch, but Lackey is lackluster here.
R/w Rifter: 0
Solidarity: 0[/QUOTE]
Looking at the proposed alternative (Goblin Grappler):

B/w: You already have a good matchup here unless they get Darkblast/ E. Plague, in which case you're fucked either way.

Threshold: Grappler can't target Mongoose, which is the only relevant creature when it comes to forcing through Lackey. It might be decent against Werebear in the late game, but if you have a board left by turn 3 you're probably already winning.

Goblins: Grappler is pretty lackluster here as well. I'd rather have Fanatic to take out opposing Sharpshooters and Lackies.

R/w Rifter: In a deck without meaningful blockers to speak of in the early game, the distinction is almost meaningless. At least Fanatic deals a point to the dome when they Wrath you.

Solidarity: Fanatic is strictly superior to Grappler in this matchup.


We can say that Fanatic is crappy, but it deals well with randomness. Contrary to popular belief, x/1's still get played in this format. Birds, mana Elves, Kird Ape (if you waste their first turn Taiga), hell, even random jank like Ichorid. Your analysis also completely ignores Fanatic's ability to mess with combat math. For example, the ability to kill an x/2 blocking one of your 1/1's, or an x/3 blocking one of your 2/2's, etc.

Speaking in terms of sheer versatility, Fanatic provides more utility in almost all possible circumstances. I'm willing to accept the possibility that Fanatic should be replaced, but if it is, it should be a 1/1 to properly smooth the curve, and Grappler isn't a particularly attractive alternative. Consider it the lesser of all available evils.

[Bane of the Living]

Out fanatic,
In Burning Wish?

I would only play 3 wish. But still, your trading a very weak card for a very strong one, dispite issues with tribal synergies. Playing burning wish could let you lighten up your gempalm load if you wanted. Wish gets removal, like.. Anarchy.


-EDIT

On another note, here's a quote from zilla on the Rifter thread.


Rifter does have one major drawback and that is its manabase can be disrupted. While the deck is highly resistant to Wasteland given that it plays 16 or so basic lands it can be affected by Rishadan Port especially by cutting off one of the 2 colors that might be needed at any given time. It is also more suspectible to land destruction strategies employed mainly by decks like Deadguy Ale.

If Rifter is currently viewed as a DTB then maybe we should continue to play our Rishadin Ports? When I play gobs I really dont enjoy staring at maindecked Humility. I think I'd rather be stronger in this match up. Yea yea pump lands get around Humility, but not with a Lightining Rift out.

[Zilla]

Out fanatic,
In Burning Wish?
The Golden Rule for Goblins is that any non-land, non-Goblin card besides Vial simply doesn't belong. There are too many dissynergies with the rest of the deck. As it's been pointed out time and time again, they weaken Ringleaders, Lackies, Matrons, and Gempalms. On top of that, they're horrendously slow, where Goblins is one the fastest aggro decks in the format. Wish simply doesn't belong.

[Marco]

I'm not against innovation, but for my Vial Goblins deck I'll stick with Wasteland and Rishadan Port over Goblin Burrows and Skarrg, the Rage Pits.

I'm planning on taking Jonathan Sonne's mono-red Vial Goblins deck (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/gpphi05/welcome#1) to an upcoming Legacy tournament instead of my R/w Vial Goblins deck. I'm not making any changes to the main deck, but I want to change/update the sideboard. I'm expecting Threshold, other aggro (Goblins), Affinity, Solidarity, and probably some Control decks. Here's what I'm thinking:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Red Elemental Blast

The problem I'm having is figuring out what to side out. Anyone have any sideboaring suggestions? For example:

Vs. Threshold
+4 Tormod's Crypt
-4 Mogg Fanatic

Thanks!

[Bane of the Living]

Zilla what about Lightning Bolts? Those arent goblins and people play them. Like I said wish isnt so slow when you have active lackey or vial. It would seem that if your playing bolts you might as well try wish since it answers ALL of the problems faced when playing goblins.

Last night I played the mirror. My opponent played R/w Gobs with 3 maindeck STP. I won 3 out of 5 games. 2 of them were because I played vial, gempalmed something, and wished for pyroclasm. Then I vialed out warcheif/ringleader and won pretty hardcore. People dont see silly tech like that coming. Every mirror you play in, you'll see opponents overextend into clasm, I garentee.

Not too mention you can grab a shattering spree turn 3 and have vial superiority. This wins the mirror does it not?

[Amon Amarth]

We can say that Fanatic is crappy, but it deals well with randomness. Contrary to popular belief, x/1's still get played in this format. Birds, mana Elves, Kird Ape (if you waste their first turn Taiga), hell, even random jank like Ichorid. Your analysis also completely ignores Fanatic's ability to mess with combat math. For example, the ability to kill an x/2 blocking one of your 1/1's, or an x/3 blocking one of your 2/2's, etc.

Speaking in terms of sheer versatility, Fanatic provides more utility in almost all possible circumstances. I'm willing to accept the possibility that Fanatic should be replaced, but if it is, it should be a 1/1 to properly smooth the curve, and Grappler isn't a particularly attractive alternative. Consider it the lesser of all available evils.

My bad on the combat math. I forgot that guy can do that ;)

While killing randomness is nice, it is not game ending like forcing through midgame Lackeys or lategame Piledrivers.

With that said, I'm not sure which one is better. Currently I am testing Grappler.

On Non Goblin Cards: They are bad maindeck, whether it be burn, swords, wish, whatever.

[Zilla]

Last night I played the mirror. My opponent played R/w Gobs with 3 maindeck STP. I won 3 out of 5 games. 2 of them were because I played vial, gempalmed something, and wished for pyroclasm. Then I vialed out warcheif/ringleader and won pretty hardcore. People dont see silly tech like that coming. Every mirror you play in, you'll see opponents overextend into clasm, I garentee.

Not too mention you can grab a shattering spree turn 3 and have vial superiority. This wins the mirror does it not?
Are you suggesting that winning 3 out of 5 games in a mirror is definitive proof of... anything?

[Sims]

I'd like to note, that in 1.x pre-rotation the top placing Goblin lists that ran Burning Wish were not running Vial to keep the non-Goblin cards to a minimum so that they wouldn't interefere with strong Ringleaders. What matches, however, do you wish to shore by giving up uncounterability with Vial for high counterability and butchering your sideboard to make it a wishboard? I don't think that Vial and Wish are mutually exclusive but I sure as hell wouldn't want to be adding more than the Vials as non-land/non-gobbos in my MD.

[frogboy]

The non-Vial Goblins lists with Burning Wish were pretty much obsolete by about the third or fourth week of the PTQs, so I'm not sure how relevant that is. Besides, there's a lot of synergy between Burning Wish and Vial.

@holmes: Drawing Vial and Ringleader will generally put you ahead in the mirror. Also, because of how the Goblin mirror plays out, it's really quite rare that people will overextend into Pyroclasm because it's almost the same as overextending into Goblin Sharpshooter. Trying to win the mirror with with an aggro draw is difficult and stupid.

[Lego]

The only way I could see adding cards is if you switched out Vial for them. I played 1.x Goblins with Seething Song, and it was hot (first round of a PTQ, I won on turn 2) but that was only because Vial is illegal. I can't think of any cards I'd actually replace the Vial with, and 8 non-land, non-goblins is the opposite of Tech.

[Bongo]

I'm expecting Threshold, other aggro (Goblins), Affinity, Solidarity, and probably some Control decks. Here's what I'm thinking:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Red Elemental Blast

The problem I'm having is figuring out what to side out. Anyone have any sideboaring suggestions? For example:

Vs. Threshold
+4 Tormod's Crypt
-4 Mogg Fanatic

Thanks!


I would strongly recommend Pyrostatic Pillar. I have found it to be very effective against Threshold and Solidarity. It should also work well in the Affinity matchup.

If you're not running it maindeck, Goblin Tinkerer is also a very good choice for your board, as it lets you win the Vial war and takes out Pithing Needles. It also lets you destroy Jitte or any other high-cc artifact, although it will die then.
Skirk Fire Marshal is also your game-saver against Threshold decks running Worship.

For the mirror, additional Sharpshooters are very effective and I would include them over Pyrokinesis.

As for the boarding plan, I usually side out SGC, KJ or Sharpshooter, depending on the matchup of course. Mogg Fanatic is crucial in the early game, I almost never sideboard them out.

Hope this helps.

I'm also very interested in the boarding plan of other Goblin players, what are your sideboarding plans?

[Marco]

Thank you Bongo. If you click on the hyperlink in my post you'll see the main deck (scroll down to the deck list). There is 1 main deck Goblin Sharpshooter, 1 main deck Goblin Tinkerer, 3 main deck Siege-Gang Commanders, and no Kiki-Jiki's. Sonne's original sideboard is:

4 Pithing Needle
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Patron of the Akki
3 Price of Progress
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Siege-Gang Commander

I like some of your suggestions, but I'm finding it difficult to fit everything I want to into my sideboard.

[Dr.ugs]

In my build of Vial-Goblins I run Tangle Wire.It is usefull in problematic Machtups , and it has the ability to allow you to change the bord position.At the same time it has nice interaction with Rishadan Port(which I still run),Wasteland,Aether Vial,Skirk Prospector,Goblin Warchief and in some extend it also interacts with Lackey and Piledriver.



The only real problem I see is that it is not a goblin.

[Amon Amarth]

Thank you Bongo. If you click on the hyperlink in my post you'll see the main deck (scroll down to the deck list). There is 1 main deck Goblin Sharpshooter, 1 main deck Goblin Tinkerer, 3 main deck Siege-Gang Commanders, and no Kiki-Jiki's. Sonne's original sideboard is:

4 Pithing Needle
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Patron of the Akki
3 Price of Progress
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Siege-Gang Commander

I like some of your suggestions, but I'm finding it difficult to fit everything I want to into my sideboard.

You should try and fit Tormod's Crypts in there. It is super important in the Threshold matchup and hits Tog and Loam decks.

I would probably take out the Pyrokinesis for the Crypts.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I can't believe what I'm hearing. Fanatic is som important for clearing first turn Lackey blockers. Sure, they're weaker in the late game, but they have a role to serve and they serve it well.

On a side note, I tested Grappler in the Fantic slot about a year ago and it sucked ass. It seems like it would be a good trick with Lackey, but by the time it would actually be useful, your opponent has has either removed Lackey or played more than one blocker. It's even less good when you consider that a great many creatures in the format can either tap for an ability in response or are untargetable.


After testing, I found Grappler pretty crappy in general. Once in a while it did what I wanted it to, but generally it was just a 1/1 for R. Most of the situatiosn it was weak in, however, Mogg Fanatic would be either the same or worse. Rarely would either card do a lot. It's hard to get past the fact that every non-land card in the deck except this slot either does something ridiculous or enables the ridiculous cards. Fanatic and Grappler do neither. I'm at the point where I'd either consider Sledder, which can fight Pyroclasm at least, or just run more tutor targets and Tin Streets.

[Amon Amarth]

After testing, I found Grappler pretty crappy in general. Once in a while it did what I wanted it to, but generally it was just a 1/1 for R. Most of the situatiosn it was weak in, however, Mogg Fanatic would be either the same or worse. Rarely would either card do a lot. It's hard to get past the fact that every non-land card in the deck except this slot either does something ridiculous or enables the ridiculous cards. Fanatic and Grappler do neither. I'm at the point where I'd either consider Sledder, which can fight Pyroclasm at least, or just run more tutor targets and Tin Streets.

Have you thought about Skirk Prospector? The obvious use is to enable 2nd turn Wachiefs, and is obviously good with Sharpshooter and SGC. Another awesome quality is to make Daze crap. I run him as a one-of and everytime I saw him in the Threshold match, I wanted him early to be able to play through Daze effectively.

From playing that matchup a lot, Daze is really their best counter. Losing tempo by leaving counterspell open, or losing cards by FoW is bad times. Daze allows them to play their threats with counter back up, with no relevant drawback.

Nevertheless, getting a second turn Chief destroyed/counter is craptacular.

Just my 2 cents.

[calosso]

You should try and fit Tormod's Crypts in there. It is super important in the Threshold matchup and hits Tog and Loam decks.

I would probably take out the Pyrokinesis for the Crypts.

Why would you take out pyrokenesis? It is busted in the goblin mirror and pretty decent against D. ale, and other aggro decks.

I would take out the PoP's. They do not seem that strong to me.

[Marco]

As I wrote in my post, this is Sonne's sideboard:

4 Pithing Needle
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Patron of the Akki
3 Price of Progress
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Siege-Gang Commander

This is my sideboard:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Red Elemental Blast

Please comment on my sideboard, not Sonne's.

Thank you.

[calosso]

As I wrote in my post, this is Sonne's sideboard:

4 Pithing Needle
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Patron of the Akki
3 Price of Progress
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Siege-Gang Commander

This is my sideboard:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Red Elemental Blast

Please comment on my sideboard, not Sonne's.

Thank you.

Sorry, I think you should not play Reb at all. Since blue is not a dominant color in the format unless you see a metric shit ton of solidarity in your metagame. Also you should run Patron of the Akki he is amazing against plague.

[umbowta]

This is my sideboard:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Red Elemental Blast
I really don't like the Red Blasts right now. If you are seeing Solidarity and/ or gro, Pyrostatic Pillar is a really sweet, proactive choice. Red Blast seems a little "meh" when the goal is to kill opponents, not try to counter their High Tide.

[calosso]

Pyrostatic pillar is not good against gro unless you are in a winning postion already. I have tested it and when gro drops a sweeper effect and has a needle on vial pillar seems less then stellar.

[Amon Amarth]

Why would you take out pyrokenesis? It is busted in the goblin mirror and pretty decent against D. ale, and other aggro decks.

I would take out the PoP's. They do not seem that strong to me.

It is a metagame consideration; PK is not very good vs Threshold.

Price of Progress should be removed, since many decks tend to fetch basics first.

[Bun Bun, Lord of Darkness]

Having only 4 Red Elemental Blasts doesn't seem good against Solidarity. I wouldn't play fewer than 6 if I wanted that to be my Solidarity SB plan. Overall, if you're limited on sideboard slots, I would run Sirrocco or Pyrostatic Pillar, both of which are good against Solidarity. If you know good Solidarity players are going to show, then you also know that Solidarity doesn't have to show up in huge numbers to ruin your day. Also, I'm not sure what kind of Control you're looking at, but I'd look at running a solution to the overwhelmingly retarded problem of Humility.

[calosso]

Having only 4 Red Elemental Blasts doesn't seem good against Solidarity. I wouldn't play fewer than 6 if I wanted that to be my Solidarity SB plan. Overall, if you're limited on sideboard slots, I would run Sirrocco or Pyrostatic Pillar, both of which are good against Solidarity. If you know good Solidarity players are going to show, then you also know that Solidarity doesn't have to show up in huge numbers to ruin your day. Also, I'm not sure what kind of Control you're looking at, but I'd look at running a solution to the overwhelmingly retarded problem of Humility.

IBA has already solved the problem by running burrows and skarrg because those cards makes all your goblins threats.

[Bongo]

Pyrostatic pillar is not good against gro unless you are in a winning postion already.

This is wrong.
Pillar rapidly reduces the life total of a Gro player and shortens the clock considerably. Even if you aren't in a "winning position" as you call it, you need to resolve a lot less threats to win. It is entirely possible to win the game with Ringleaders, Pyromancers and SGCs.
You can even win by playing low-cc Goblins and take the damage. After my board got cleared, I have dropped Warchief/Driver/Driver and the damage didn't matter, because my opponent was dead. Or he was killing himself finding solutions.
A resolved turn 2 Pillar is game most of the time. Multiples are even more bad-ass. Without Needle on Vial, Pillar just wins. You can also drop it as a bomb after you have developed your board.

[Bun Bun, Lord of Darkness]

Marco is playing a copy of Jonathan Sonne's decklist from Lille, which means no Skargg or Burrows. If he's changed his mind, then some of my advise is less useful.

However, even though Skargg and Burrows make 1/1 ability-less Goblins more threatening, they can't stop your opponent from pinging away your guys. Humility is a beating, and I'd run a way to kill it even with the pump-lands.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I would play Tranquil Domain in the sideboard, as it's the cheapest way of taking out multiple E. Plagues or Lightning Rifts and Humilities/RoPs.

[Sims]

I would play Tranquil Domain in the sideboard, as it's the cheapest way of taking out multiple E. Plagues or Lightning Rifts and Humilities/RoPs.

QFT.

I would run Pillar over any Red Blasts if I was worried about Solidarity. I would even almost consider 1 Maindeck swamp (to be fetched) for Perish in the Sideboard against Gro, but I'm jank like that.

[oneman426]

OK, I am still a bit of a noob at all of this and I have not read all 30+ pages of posts cause that would take hours so I apologize if this has been brought up and I apologize if what I ask is plain idiotic. Having said that instead of Skarg and what not to trample over a blocker, why not use berserk? With goblin king a silver knight wont be a problem am I wrong? This way you wont have all this mana tied up to solve a problem. In addition the splash gives you green for naturalize against those enchantments that I am fearing (especially the plague and humility). I am going to my first legacy tourney in a couple weeks and with my mono-red build as it is I am afraid I'm just gonna get smashed with all this anti-goblin hate that everyone most definitely will be running.

[Eldariel]

OK, I am still a bit of a noob at all of this and I have not read all 30+ pages of posts cause that would take hours so I apologize if this has been brought up and I apologize if what I ask is plain idiotic. Having said that instead of Skarg and what not to trample over a blocker, why not use berserk? With goblin king a silver knight wont be a problem am I wrong? This way you wont have all this mana tied up to solve a problem. In addition the splash gives you green for naturalize against those enchantments that I am fearing (especially the plague and humility). I am going to my first legacy tourney in a couple weeks and with my mono-red build as it is I am afraid I'm just gonna get smashed with all this anti-goblin hate that everyone most definitely will be running.

Goblin King isn't a reliable plan really. You can't expect to have it in play every game, especially since you'll often be busy Matroning up Ringleaders and Bangers. Not to mention, while Skarrg et co. are lands, Berserk is a spell, and not only that, but also a spell that doesn't help against Silver Knight alone (btw, working great against Silver Knight is only a bonus in Skarrg, it does a whole lot more, like trample over random blockers with Piledrivers, make your 2/xs able to attack into Nimble Mongeese with Thres, make Goblin Pyromancer all the more deadly, etc.).

[Lego]

Most of the reason to not play Berserk is the first rule of Goblins:

If it is a non-land, non-goblin card, it has to be really good to include (a la Vial) and you should probably not include more than 4 of these in the deck. There are already 4 Vials, and I would hate to have 8 non-gobbos in here. Having to keep mana open and risking instant speed removal is also not fun. I'd rather be dropping guys, clearing blockers with Gempalm, and swinging.

[Bun Bun, Lord of Darkness]

Most of the reason to not play Berserk is the first rule of Goblins:

If it is a non-land, non-goblin card, it has to be really good to include (a la Vial) and you should probably not include more than 4 of these in the deck. There are already 4 Vials, and I would hate to have 8 non-gobbos in here. Having to keep mana open and risking instant speed removal is also not fun. I'd rather be dropping guys, clearing blockers with Gempalm, and swinging.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

@ oneman426: As for getting hated out, try not being so overwhelmingly pessimistic. Sure, people love to hate on Goblins, but it has been accurately stated in pages past that Goblins has such raw power at its disposal that it can often power through the hate.

[Bane of the Living]

It really depresses me when people try to lay the goblin rule in stone.

No.

You can definitly have up to 8 non gob cards in your deck. If this wasnt true how could you possibly sideboard anything but goblins. Unless you were siding out vial. Which would mean you need to be dragged out into a stormy alley and shot in the face.

You can absolutely afford to go to 7 non goblins if you count the vials. This is why it pisses me off when half the people here say, "No dude its not a goblin"

Neither is Pithing Needle, Pyrokinesis, REB, Pyrostatic Pillar, Tormod's Crypt, Swords to Plowshares, Disenchant/Naturalize.

Then in other forums people are saying, Burning Wish is nearly broken.

So instead of sideboarding all that stupid shit and/or going off mono red. People refuse to play burning wish. But hey whatever, lets just play the same goblin deck we've been playing for 4 years. Awsome.

DTB threads piss me off.
[/rant]

[Zilla]

It really depresses me when people try to lay the goblin rule in stone.
Statistically, Goblins builds running more non-Goblins than the standard 4 Vials have consistently placed lower than those that don't. This isn't rocket surgery; every non-goblin, non-land card in your deck significantly weakens the strength of the rest of the goblins in the deck. The only reason that sideboarding in non-goblins is an acceptable tactic is that the cards being brought in are so strong in that one particular matchup that their inclusion outweighs the disadvantages of having less goblins in your deck.

Aside from Vial, there is no one card that is so strong in all matchups that it warrants weakening your deck against everything else in order to have access to it. Burning Wish is no exception; it doesn't significantly strengthen so many matchups that it outweighs the disadvantage against every other matchup. Wish is slow, where Goblins' greatest advantage is that it's faster than every other aggro deck in the format. Wish not only breaks the non-goblin rule, it also slows down your deck against everything.

As for playing the same deck for 4 years, this build has only existed in Legacy for slightly over a year, and Aether Vial has only existed for slightly over 2. I'm all for innovation in the archetype - I'd just prefer that the innovations don't suck.

[bigbear102]

OK, I am still a bit of a noob at all of this and I have not read all 30+ pages of posts cause that would take hours so I apologize if this has been brought up and I apologize if what I ask is plain idiotic. Having said that instead of Skarg and what not to trample over a blocker, why not use berserk? With goblin king a silver knight wont be a problem am I wrong? This way you wont have all this mana tied up to solve a problem. In addition the splash gives you green for naturalize against those enchantments that I am fearing (especially the plague and humility). I am going to my first legacy tourney in a couple weeks and with my mono-red build as it is I am afraid I'm just gonna get smashed with all this anti-goblin hate that everyone most definitely will be running.



I believe that the inclusion of Burrows and Skarrg is to trump humility and give you more game against Gro. It isn't so much about the trample effect of Skarrg, although that can be important also. Berserk is ok in goblins, but the only decent target would be piledriver. Berserking a Lackey might be decent turn 2, but anything else seems kind of 'meh' to me.

@Bane: I also believe that the problem with Burning Wish is that it doesn't fetch the cards needed necessarily... of the ones you listed, none are actually wishable. You could play some sorcery speed artifact kill, maybe boiling seas. Other than that goblins wants to be dealing damage. The best SB card against solidarity is pillar/sirocco, which can't be wished for.

[Sims]

I would like a list of Sorceries that you are actually going to want to wish for with this deck... Seriously. You are talking about BWish like it will answer all of the decks problems and allow you to stay Mono-R, which is highly suspect.

I'd honestly like a list of Sorceries you intend to wish for that will shore up your matchups and make the deck more resilient than if you didn't have wishes in the deck slowing you down.

Adding Wish is seriously playing a different deck, a much more controlling deck that has to be designed and played differently.. I don't think it warrants discussion here at all.

[vanele]

@Burning wish. How does burning wish help any more than 4 more main deck goblins? Lets break it down a little. If your worried about enchantments, then Your argument on mono-red are invalid. If your going after artifacts wouldn't it be eaiser to run 1 main deck tinkerer that can be fetched? If you are competing in mirror isn't it easier to run a main deck sharpshooter or king? If you are playing Solidarity then it doesn't help much seeing as its a sorcery. This plus taking goblins out does not seem worth spending the room on.


This isn't rocket surgery;
Sigged

[Bun Bun, Lord of Darkness]

I love this: "People on other forums." Congratulations, you've won the award for vaguest non-support of a bad argument!

Honestly, the Goblin Rule (which, for argument's sake, we'll say is stuck in went, but drying, concrete) is a rule for building the Goblin MAINDECK. Like Godzilla said, the non-Goblins you mentioned are all too matchup specific to run MD.

Also, the Goblin rule is probably most "set in stone" for Mono-Red Goblins, anyway. Being such a proponent of "staying Red" you should realize this. Swords to Plowshares and Cabal Therapy are cards that have such wide applications that one can afford to run them instead of Goblins. The problem? They aren't Red. Mono-Red has to remain focused and Goblin-a-riffic in order to beat cards (and by extension, decks) that Splash builds can solve with good Non-Goblins.

[oneman426]

Another possible noob question...why not run 4 lotus petals? The potential to play 2 lackeys or even warchief first turn strike me as something devastating for most decks. 1 lackey can be countered by FoW but 2? I have been testing this against solidarity and if I drop 2 lackeys or if 1 gets countered but the other sticks around I win. However I have not seen lotus petal in any builds so I am curious why no one runs it. Is it because its a 1 shot deal and therefore affects your mana production?

[calosso]

Another possible noob question...why not run 4 lotus petals? The potential to play 2 lackeys or even warchief first turn strike me as something devastating for most decks. 1 lackey can be countered by FoW but 2? I have been testing this against solidarity and if I drop 2 lackeys or if 1 gets countered but the other sticks around I win. However I have not seen lotus petal in any builds so I am curious why no one runs it. Is it because its a 1 shot deal and therefore affects your mana production?

Also there are two reasons. One it is a one shot deal a chrome mox is better in my opinion(but they both suck). Second it is a land, it is not a goblin, and it is not amazing and that is why it is not in the deck.(Goblins golden rule).

[AnwarA101]

Also there are two reasons. One it is a one shot deal a chrome mox is better in my opinion(but they both suck). Second it is a land, it is not a goblin, and it is not amazing and that is why it is not in the deck.(Goblins golden rule).

The real problem is that acceleration costs you a card (Lotus Petal) and against a deck with removal if your major threat is countered/removed then you've lost 2 cards not just 1. You are not likely to have an opening hand of Lotus Petal and 2 Goblin Lackeys.

As for the Golden Rule, I would have to disagree with it completely. I think sticking to something like this will lead to the demise of this deck. The deck already loses to virtually all combo decks and is losing to the major control deck (Rifter) in the format. It has issues with Gro and just sticking to a rule that clearly isn't working is a plan for disaster. It loses to Zoo and Zilla Stompy like decks. What exactly is going right for Goblins that you can stick to such a rule?

[calosso]

The real problem is that acceleration costs you a card (Lotus Petal) and against a deck with removal if your major threat is countered/removed then you've lost 2 cards not just 1. You are not likely to have an opening hand of Lotus Petal and 2 Goblin Lackeys.

As for the Golden Rule, I would have to disagree with it completely. I think sticking to something like this will lead to the demise of this deck. The deck already loses to virtually all combo decks and is losing to the major control deck (Rifter) in the format. It has issues with Gro and just sticking to a rule that clearly isn't working is a plan for disaster. It loses to Zoo and Zilla Stompy like decks. What exactly is going right for Goblins that you can stick to such a rule?

Then what cards that are not goblins or lands can improve any one of those problems that still has synergy witht he deck?

[Amon Amarth]

Then what cards that are not goblins or lands can improve any one of those problems that still has synergy witht he deck?

Pretty much none. You can add different Goblins to shore up problematic matches, or you can change the mana base with different utility lands to help beat certain decks; I have tested the pump lands versus aggro decks, Thresh in particular, and have gotten very favorable results.

Of course, you can always tweak your sideboard too.

[Artowis]

The real problem is that acceleration costs you a card (Lotus Petal) and against a deck with removal if your major threat is countered/removed then you've lost 2 cards not just 1. You are not likely to have an opening hand of Lotus Petal and 2 Goblin Lackeys.

As for the Golden Rule, I would have to disagree with it completely. I think sticking to something like this will lead to the demise of this deck. The deck already loses to virtually all combo decks and is losing to the major control deck (Rifter) in the format. It has issues with Gro and just sticking to a rule that clearly isn't working is a plan for disaster. It loses to Zoo and Zilla Stompy like decks. What exactly is going right for Goblins that you can stick to such a rule?

Please, enlighten us all with what cards that aren't Goblins that help us especially. It has to be damned strong to start cutting into the threat density of the deck when that's the main strength of the deck. In Extended I did it for Suppression Field, because there was a huge hole in the meta to exploit. In Vintage you can use Null Rod for the same effect. In Legacy there is no grand hoser that ruins over half the meta that you can fit into Goblins.

There's a reason why I originally made that as a rule when I wrote the original FCG primer, it's because the deck simply gets worse the more you mess with the structure except for a few key exceptions (Which I noted, IF the card is strong enough). I've had a discussion similar to this with Zilla before. Goblins is so rigid a deck that it has a base power level in the grand scheme of things. It really can't get any better at a certain point, unless new cards are printed, due to how much of the deck is needed to be designed a certain way with specfic cards. The only reason Goblins did so well for so long is because the base power level of the deck was very high by comparision to the rest of the format.

There are a few open slots in the deck, but honestly what really powerful card or powerful hoser can you fit in to make it worthwhile?

As for what's going right with Goblins: It keeps doing well at large events. It'll keep doing well because most Legacy decks are underpowered compared to it. The more refined the meta becomes, the worse Goblins will do. Even at this point in time it's still viable. You only need look at the Duel for Duals to see, behind a good player, the deck can still smash through a field with realtive ease.

[Sims]

When did Goblins start losing to "virtually all forms of combo," ??

If you expect combo, the lone addition of Pyrostatic Pillar to your sideboard turns Salvager-Combo and Solidarity from a race, to a race that is, from my play experience anyways, in your favor (for the record, I have never lost to Solidarity while playing Goblins)... Did this suddenly change overnight? Is there some new combo deck that is romping the hell out of the format that I don't know about?

[Obfuscate Freely]

As for the Golden Rule, I would have to disagree with it completely. I think sticking to something like this will lead to the demise of this deck. The deck already loses to virtually all combo decks and is losing to the major control deck (Rifter) in the format. It has issues with Gro and just sticking to a rule that clearly isn't working is a plan for disaster. It loses to Zoo and Zilla Stompy like decks. What exactly is going right for Goblins that you can stick to such a rule?

Then what cards that are not goblins or lands can improve any one of those problems that still has synergy witht he deck?

Please, enlighten us all with what cards that aren't Goblins that help us especially. It has to be damned strong to start cutting into the threat density of the deck when that's the main strength of the deck. In Extended I did it for Suppression Field, because there was a huge hole in the meta to exploit. In Vintage you can use Null Rod for the same effect. In Legacy there is no grand hoser that ruins over half the meta that you can fit into Goblins.
Re-read what Anwar wrote. What he's saying is that Goblins has gotten worse as the format has developed over the past few months. It may be difficult to justify non-Goblins in the deck, but proclaiming a "Golden Rule" that forbids them entirely is a bad idea when the deck may need evolution to stay viable.

Anwar wasn't advocating any card(s) in particular, he's just urging us to be willing to test non-Goblins in the deck, that's all. I think what he's saying has merit.

When did Goblins start losing to "virtually all forms of combo," ??

If you expect combo, the lone addition of Pyrostatic Pillar to your sideboard turns Salvager-Combo and Solidarity from a race, to a race that is, from my play experience anyways, in your favor (for the record, I have never lost to Solidarity while playing Goblins)... Did this suddenly change overnight? Is there some new combo deck that is romping the hell out of the format that I don't know about?
The addition of Remand to Solidarity has improved its matchup against Goblins pretty significantly. You probably already overestimated Goblins' chances, though, if your only combo hate is a set of Pyrostatic Pillars. In fact, I would think the post-board situation actually becomes worse with your board, since Solidarity will match your 4 Pillars with 4-8 Blasts.

Iggy-Pop is out there, too. It's capable of killing by turn 3, and it boards 4 Engineered Plagues. Goblins can't really hope to beat that deck at all.

[AnwarA101]

Please, enlighten us all with what cards that aren't Goblins that help us especially. It has to be damned strong to start cutting into the threat density of the deck when that's the main strength of the deck. In Extended I did it for Suppression Field, because there was a huge hole in the meta to exploit. In Vintage you can use Null Rod for the same effect. In Legacy there is no grand hoser that ruins over half the meta that you can fit into Goblins.

As for what's going right with Goblins: It keeps doing well at large events. It'll keep doing well because most Legacy decks are underpowered compared to it. The more refined the meta becomes, the worse Goblins will do. Even at this point in time it's still viable. You only need look at the Duel for Duals to see, behind a good player, the deck can still smash through a field with realtive ease.


I didn't claim to know which cards would help Goblins. I only claimed that those cards might not be Goblins, but in fact other cards. You advocated limiting the scope to just Goblins.

Goblins is doing really well at large tournaments, but you have to consider the number of players that are playing it. Its the most played decked at almost any Legacy tournament. Its bound to place a few people in the top8 given that it is a strong deck and that it is the most prevelant. I was just pointing out the deck has significant problems like Combo and White-based Control decks and even certain aggro decks (Zoo, Angel Stompy) and even Gro for that matter.

[Amon Amarth]

I didn't claim to know which cards would help Goblins. I only claimed that those cards might not be Goblins, but in fact other cards. You advocated limiting the scope to just Goblins.



It has to be damned strong to start cutting into the threat density of the deck when that's the main strength of the deck.

I think it is well agreed upon that it has to be an unusually powerful card to be played in this deck if it is taking up spots reserved normally for Goblins, such as the aforementioned Null Rod.


In Legacy there is no grand hoser that ruins over half the meta that you can fit into Goblins.

Quoted for emphasis. There are many different strategies employed in Legacy. Whilst Tormod's Crypt will be good against Thresh, it is terrible vs Angel Stompy, Solidarity, etc.