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Artowis
03-07-2006, 09:06 PM
I didn't claim to know which cards would help Goblins. I only claimed that those cards might not be Goblins, but in fact other cards. You advocated limiting the scope to just Goblins.


I do so, because it's been proven to work. I don't mean to smother innovation here and I specfically gave examples of when I've found exceptions to the rule. But thus far there hasn't been any card listed that even comes close to being better than what's already in the maindeck. The rule isn't absolute, but it's usualy right.

Sims
03-07-2006, 10:24 PM
Damn new fangled cards... /reads Remand...... Eh, that's NB...

Alright, I'll submit to the logic that you people know this shit better than me... I just didn't realize the matchup had changed that significantly (I Also never had to play deep6er every week, but yea..) since I had never had a problem with it before, even running only 4 pillars when they boarded in blue blasts. But yea, I don't play this format as often as you all... I just borrow it from time to time from you guys.

/shrug
/concede
/bow

Zilla
03-07-2006, 11:48 PM
I didn't claim to know which cards would help Goblins. I only claimed that those cards might not be Goblins, but in fact other cards. You advocated limiting the scope to just Goblins.
This isn't precisely true. He (and I, for that matter) advocate limiting the scope only to Goblins unless the prospective card to be added is so strong against the perceived metagame that it outweighs the disadvantages of being a non-Goblin. He gave the example of Supression Field in Extended, and Null Rod in Vintage.

There simply isn't a card like this in Legacy right now (that we're aware of). That doesn't mean there never will be, because new cards are always being printed, and the metagame is contantly changing. Right now, however, there's no single card that stands out as being so powerful against 50% or more of the field that it's worth weakening the rest of the deck for, and so the Golden Rule holds true, for the time being.

Obfuscate Freely
03-08-2006, 10:48 AM
This isn't precisely true. He (and I, for that matter) advocate limiting the scope only to Goblins unless the prospective card to be added is so strong against the perceived metagame that it outweighs the disadvantages of being a non-Goblin.
This is becoming a semantic debate. Countless times, people have argued against the inclusion of cards in Goblins because of the "Golden Rule." If that rule is less a rule and more of a guideline, it would be more productive to argue against the inclusion of a card because it isn't good enough to be a non-Goblin.

"Lightning Bolt sucks because it isn't good enough to cut a Goblin for it," is clearer at illustrating the correct point than "Lightning Bolt sucks because it isn't a Goblin."

Honestly, there is no real need for a Golden Rule, because it's already assumed that no card should be run unless it is better in the deck than the card it replaces. The Golden Rule does cause problems, though, since it encourages autopilot while deckbuilding and thus hinders innovation and development.

calosso
03-08-2006, 09:18 PM
This is becoming a semantic debate. Countless times, people have argued against the inclusion of cards in Goblins because of the "Golden Rule." If that rule is less a rule and more of a guideline, it would be more productive to argue against the inclusion of a card because it isn't good enough to be a non-Goblin.

"Lightning Bolt sucks because it isn't good enough to cut a Goblin for it," is clearer at illustrating the correct point than "Lightning Bolt sucks because it isn't a Goblin."

Honestly, there is no real need for a Golden Rule, because it's already assumed that no card should be run unless it is better in the deck than the card it replaces. The Golden Rule does cause problems, though, since it encourages autopilot while deckbuilding and thus hinders innovation and development.

People have tried to innovate goblins and have failed including me. Non-goblin cards cannot be added because there is no non-goblin good enough to replace a good goblin. The reason lightning bolt wasn't used is because it was not a goblin and Gempalm incenerator was better anyway. If you feel goblins is being hindered because of the "golden rule" then you come up with a list of goblins that does not follow the rule.

Sorry for the grammer issues.

Bane of the Living
03-08-2006, 10:02 PM
This isn't precisely true. He (and I, for that matter) advocate limiting the scope only to Goblins unless the prospective card to be added is so strong against the perceived metagame that it outweighs the disadvantages of being a non-Goblin. He gave the example of Supression Field in Extended, and Null Rod in Vintage.

There simply isn't a card like this in Legacy right now (that we're aware of). That doesn't mean there never will be, because new cards are always being printed, and the metagame is contantly changing. Right now, however, there's no single card that stands out as being so powerful against 50% or more of the field that it's worth weakening the rest of the deck for, and so the Golden Rule holds true, for the time being.

Ive been doing some light testing with Winter Orb. While it doesnt help much against combo admitedly, its a f*cking rapefest against Zilla Stompy and Rifter. Its not too bad against Thresh since it gives a punishment for playing so many low cc spells that dont do much on their own.

Orb also complements Vial so well that people try to make decks based off it.

Zilla
03-09-2006, 12:16 AM
Honestly, there is no real need for a Golden Rule, because it's already assumed that no card should be run unless it is better in the deck than the card it replaces.
This would be true only if it were obvious to everyone how significantly the inclusion of non-goblin cards impacts the proper function of the deck, which they clearly do not. Typically speaking, "Slippery When Wet" signs are totally superfluous until you realize that there are a bunch of idiots out there who will try to sue you after they slip and crack their fat, stupid skulls on your freshly mopped floor unless you give them a sign with giant blocky letters reminding them not to be fucktards.

In short, the rule seems unnecessary to you because you know enough about game mechanics and about this deck specifically to intuit what the rule implies. It's not becoming a semantic issue. It always was one.


The Golden Rule does cause problems, though, since it encourages autopilot while deckbuilding and thus hinders innovation and development.
Not really. It only serves as a reminder that most non-goblins are simply not going to be good enough to make the cut in the maindeck. A rule which, with the exception of Food Chain and Vial, has yet to be broken.

Bane of the Living
03-11-2006, 03:04 PM
Food Chain? Where on earth are the Food Chain decks placing? Your refering to Vintage I hope. Ive taken Gobs to 2 major events, Regionals and Philly. Lightning Bolt is definitly a card I decided to include at Philly thanks to the rampant number of random aggro. I would have played straight gobs if I had 3 round bye like a bastard pro but I didnt. Knowing that I'd need to fight my way through a bunch of riff raff was what led me to play Bolt. I ended up going 5-3 losing to Solidarity, Golden Grahams, and Survival (played by scrumdogg) The bolts proved helpfull all day, and definitly won be games against both the mirror, and deadguy. I'll experiment with 2-3 non vial non goblins in the deck usually. Bolt seems the best but I've still had good results with Swords to Plowshares, Burning Wish, Pithing Needle, and Winter Orb. Sometimes straight Vial Goblins just gets terribly boring and also predictable. The non synergies of playing Non Goblins are few and far to me, rarely do I pull my non gob off a ringleader. The non synergy with Chief and Pile are usually ok since bolt, or stp will keep them swingin, dealin damage, and alive.

Lego
03-11-2006, 11:01 PM
The Food Chain thing was back when Goblin Recruiter was legal. It allowed the deck to stack with Recruiter, and then play Ringleader into 4 goblins, Ringleader into 4 goblins, Ringleader into 4 goblins, etc. and then either win with 4 hasty piledrivers, or just ping you to infinity with a Siege-Gang Command (or 2), Skirk Prospector, and a couple of Goblin Sharpshooters. This was just a secondary plan that allowed the deck to combo out when you least expected it. In T1 it could go off on Turn 1, and it's still a viable deck, but Recruiter was banned for good reason in 1.5

Zilla
03-11-2006, 11:58 PM
Food Chain? Where on earth are the Food Chain decks placing? Your refering to Vintage I hope.
I'm referring to Food Chain Goblins when it was still legal in this format and was a tier 1 deck. This was, in fact, where the term "golden rule" originated in reference to Goblins as an archetype.


Ive taken Gobs to 2 major events, Regionals and Philly. Lightning Bolt is definitly a card I decided to include at Philly thanks to the rampant number of random aggro.
Again, statistically speaking, Goblins decks running Bolts consistently placed lower than those not running them at both GP's. I'm willing to trust the numbers on this one. By all rights, you should already smash most aggro. Those that you do not are matchups where Bolt is barely useful anyway (Angel Stompy, Zilla Stompy, Thresh, etc.)

oneman426
03-14-2006, 03:57 PM
With a legacy tourney coming up on this Sunday I am struggling to decide on mono red gobs or a green splash for naturalize. I have no clue what the metagame will be like. I don't have plateaus but I may be able to borrow some so a white splash for disenchant and perhaps stp could be possible. If I go mono red then I can't get around enchantments unless say I pithing needle a COP. Against engineered plague I am hoping goblin king will keep me afloat. With green or white splash I can get rid of problem enchantments but then there will be less synergy with the ringleader. I noticed the latest magic-league legacy master and quite a few new decks I have not seen with only thresh and 2 BW in the T8 as recognized DTBs. Does this mean that there most likely will be less goblin hate as ppl will now be forced to board against threshold, BW, and these newer decks? If so then I would think mono-red would be the way to go. Sideboard so far includes 4 pyrostatic pillars and 6 blasts (my friend is getting pretty adept at solidarity). Perhaps 1 or 2 kings, 1 tinkerer? Is blood moon worth running? I can't help but think of blood moon + king. What are your thoughts?

calosso
03-14-2006, 07:05 PM
With a legacy tourney coming up on this Sunday I am struggling to decide on mono red gobs or a green splash for naturalize. I have no clue what the metagame will be like. I don't have plateaus but I may be able to borrow some so a white splash for disenchant and perhaps stp could be possible. If I go mono red then I can't get around enchantments unless say I pithing needle a COP. Against engineered plague I am hoping goblin king will keep me afloat. With green or white splash I can get rid of problem enchantments but then there will be less synergy with the ringleader. I noticed the latest magic-league legacy master and quite a few new decks I have not seen with only thresh and 2 BW in the T8 as recognized DTBs. Does this mean that there most likely will be less goblin hate as ppl will now be forced to board against threshold, BW, and these newer decks? If so then I would think mono-red would be the way to go. Sideboard so far includes 4 pyrostatic pillars and 6 blasts (my friend is getting pretty adept at solidarity). Perhaps 1 or 2 kings, 1 tinkerer? Is blood moon worth running? I can't help but think of blood moon + king. What are your thoughts?

Solidarity is not a major threat unless a kid called David Gearhart goes to your town. Pillar and Red blast is not needed in the board. E.Plague can be dealt with by patron of the akki he kicks plague in the balls. King and tinkereer should also be in the main anyway.

My mono red board looks like this

3 pyrokensis
3 pithing needle
3 patron of the akki
3 crypt
3 jitte

Lego
03-14-2006, 09:14 PM
Solidarity is not a major threat unless a kid called David Gearhart goes to your town. Pillar and Red blast is not needed in the board. E.Plague can be dealt with by patron of the akki he kicks plague in the balls. King and tinkereer should also be in the main anyway.

My mono red board looks like this

3 pyrokensis
3 pithing needle
3 patron of the akki
3 crypt
3 jitte

Where do you board the first and last of those?

Zilla
03-14-2006, 09:18 PM
Where do you board the first and last of those?
Pyrokinesis is almost certainly for the mirror. Jitte might also be. Jitte is also good against any other deck with Jitte, in that it's extra removal and a pseudo-Disenchant for a card which otherwise destroys you.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
03-14-2006, 10:13 PM
Solidarity is not a major threat unless a kid called David Gearhart goes to your town.


Y'know, it's bad enough when other morons repeat this absurd maxim, but you at least regularly have the benefit of getting your face smashed in by other good players with the deck. Can we cut the by now trite and lame pretense that Solidarity only mystically transforms into a good deck in the hands of one particular player?

calosso
03-15-2006, 07:10 AM
Where do you board the first and last of those?

Pyrokensis is for the mirror match-up and other aggro decks.

Jitte is for the mirrow match-up and rifter/wombat match-up. It is also boarded in against gro because jitte kicks the crap out of gro if it connects.

@IBA

Jack I am assuming that in his metagame one person who is okay with solidarity is worth sideboarding for. Also Jack it is not like you can play solidarity your self either.

SillyMetalGAT
03-25-2006, 04:14 PM
Jitte is a horrible card in goblins, Why would you side this in over , say, Patron of the Akki? Patron gives Gobs the TEAM PUMP, instead of trying to get board control after your opponent boards in their artifact hate for your vials.... Jitte has always been a horrible card for me in goblins, but who knows, I could be playing it wrong

Lego
03-26-2006, 02:54 AM
Jitte is a horrible card in goblins, Why would you side this in over , say, Patron of the Akki? Patron gives Gobs the TEAM PUMP, instead of trying to get board control after your opponent boards in their artifact hate for your vials.... Jitte has always been a horrible card for me in goblins, but who knows, I could be playing it wrong

They're saying it's for the mirror, where it's a wonderful tool. Playing against Goblins with other decks, I know that Jitte is a house. It can take out a couple of guys, pump your guy so he survives combat, and in tight situations even give you a couple extra live to survive that one more turn. I'm sure it's not great in other matchups, but for the mirror (or maybe Elves) it seems quite good.

SillyMetalGAT
03-28-2006, 05:51 PM
They're saying it's for the mirror, where it's a wonderful tool. Playing against Goblins with other decks, I know that Jitte is a house. It can take out a couple of guys, pump your guy so he survives combat, and in tight situations even give you a couple extra live to survive that one more turn. I'm sure it's not great in other matchups, but for the mirror (or maybe Elves) it seems quite good.

This is a valid point, but I think adding non-goblins to the deck only weakens it in the mirror. I would much rather board in something like 2x Goblin King and 2x Patron of the Akki and just go Balls-To-The-Walls aggro on like turn 4... But I can see where Jitte has its benefits.

calosso
03-28-2006, 06:02 PM
I hope you know Patron of the akki is a non-goblin.

SillyMetalGAT
03-28-2006, 09:16 PM
I hope you know Patron of the akki is a non-goblin.

This is true, but last time I checked:

1. Jitte gets needled
2. Jitte gets blown up
3. Jitte has to be played, then equipped.... for 4 mana.... wouldn't you rather drop a goblin?
4. Patron of the Akki is a card that says "you win" in the mirror, especially when backed by something like Goblin King.

So I'm going to guess that you side in 6 cards against the mirror?
3 pyrokinesis and 3 jitte. If I'm wrong, then let me know.

So if you put in 6 cards, what do you take out? Well, im going to assume that you know what your doin and you take out your 4 lackeys. Then what are you taking out for the other 2 cards? These 6 cards dont really look like cards that WIN you the game. They look to be incredibly helpful and may be enough to tip the scales in your favor, but wouldnt you rather have these cards be goblins?

See, goblins has something that other creature types dont: Removal. You have access to PLENTY of removal goblins. Sparksmith, Gempalm, Sharpshooter, Fanatic, hell..... you even have Goblin Assassin. He's tech for those silly mongeese and trolls you might have to play against. Not to mention he takes out pro reds and even angels! Sure its not guaranteed, but its better to try and fail than it is to never try.

See, here's my sideboard that I like to use when I play Goblins.... now I know, I use non-goblins. But before I get the hypocrite stamp, the non-goblins I use are BOMBS that WIN the game when they are dropped.

3 Blood Moon (Threshold=GG, or its a must-counter)
3 Anarchy (Definately needed against Angel Stompy and WW)
3 Goblin King (gets around E. Plague and goes good with Blood Moon)
3 Goblin Tinkerer (Blows up opposing vials, plus anything opponents got)
3 Patron of the Akki (Mirror match and other aggro)

What it comes down to is, why bring in a non-goblins unless the card is a crazy hoser? Crypt and Needle spell GAME OVER for decks. Crypt takes out Threshold, Salvagers, and Survival pretty nicely. Needle stops Belcher, CAL, and other silliness I missed.

Against the mirror, I'm going to bring in my 3 goblin tinkerers specifically for your vials, but are you going to drop Jitte with a Tinkerer on the board? Howabout if you know your goblin opponent plays with a splash and he/she leaves 1G or 1W open on their board? Are you going ot play Jitte then?

EDIT: Reading this again made me realize, Im sorry if this makes me sound like a dick. I've only used Jitte for a week in Goblins, but I just didnt see the point. If someone could maybe point out some really good benefits of it, that would be great

calosso
03-29-2006, 07:15 AM
This is true, but last time I checked:

1. Jitte gets needled
2. Jitte gets blown up
3. Jitte has to be played, then equipped.... for 4 mana.... wouldn't you rather drop a goblin?
4. Patron of the Akki is a card that says "you win" in the mirror, especially when backed by something like Goblin King.

So I'm going to guess that you side in 6 cards against the mirror?
3 pyrokinesis and 3 jitte. If I'm wrong, then let me know.

So if you put in 6 cards, what do you take out? Well, im going to assume that you know what your doin and you take out your 4 lackeys. Then what are you taking out for the other 2 cards? These 6 cards dont really look like cards that WIN you the game. They look to be incredibly helpful and may be enough to tip the scales in your favor, but wouldnt you rather have these cards be goblins?

See, goblins has something that other creature types dont: Removal. You have access to PLENTY of removal goblins. Sparksmith, Gempalm, Sharpshooter, Fanatic, hell..... you even have Goblin Assassin. He's tech for those silly mongeese and trolls you might have to play against. Not to mention he takes out pro reds and even angels! Sure its not guaranteed, but its better to try and fail than it is to never try.

See, here's my sideboard that I like to use when I play Goblins.... now I know, I use non-goblins. But before I get the hypocrite stamp, the non-goblins I use are BOMBS that WIN the game when they are dropped.

3 Blood Moon (Threshold=GG, or its a must-counter)
3 Anarchy (Definately needed against Angel Stompy and WW)
3 Goblin King (gets around E. Plague and goes good with Blood Moon)
3 Goblin Tinkerer (Blows up opposing vials, plus anything opponents got)
3 Patron of the Akki (Mirror match and other aggro)

What it comes down to is, why bring in a non-goblins unless the card is a crazy hoser? Crypt and Needle spell GAME OVER for decks. Crypt takes out Threshold, Salvagers, and Survival pretty nicely. Needle stops Belcher, CAL, and other silliness I missed.

Against the mirror, I'm going to bring in my 3 goblin tinkerers specifically for your vials, but are you going to drop Jitte with a Tinkerer on the board? Howabout if you know your goblin opponent plays with a splash and he/she leaves 1G or 1W open on their board? Are you going ot play Jitte then?

EDIT: Reading this again made me realize, Im sorry if this makes me sound like a dick. I've only used Jitte for a week in Goblins, but I just didnt see the point. If someone could maybe point out some really good benefits of it, that would be great

The reason jitte was good is because it could take down other aggro decks that didnít run jitte them selves. Patron of the Akki is only good when you are trying to battle plague. The card seems very weak in the mirror because it can be chumped blocked all day or it can be incinerated the fuck out of it.
Goblins do not run sparksmith anymore.

Why the fuck would you ever play a 5 casting cost creature that isnít siege-gang commander or Kiki-Jiki? His down side is terrible especially when you are in top deck mode against gro.

I personally would not run blood since it is limited to one deck in the format (gro). Why not run Crypt instead? Its uses are not limited to only one deck like you said.
If you are running the mono red version then why you donít just main deck 1 main deck tinkeerer. Instead of wasting 1/5 of your board on tinkeerers why not run pithing needle. Also how does pithing needle stop cal? Besides naming seismic assault, you still lose to confinement lock.

SillyMetalGAT
03-29-2006, 01:05 PM
@Tinkerer: I do run 1 mainboard, but when you play in a meta where there is both Stax and Chant Stick, its nice to have a full slate. Pithing Needle is a horrible alternative. Needle wont stop Chalice for 1.

@Patron: How is that a viable arguement? The creature holding your Jitte can get incinerated just as easily! But, just wondering, how is Patron a better option than Goblin King against E. Plague? Im thinking about trading the Patron with Pyromancers instead. Goblin Pyromancer does what Patron does, but better. When you ask me why the fuck I would run a 5-CC creature other than Siege-Gang Commander or Kiki-Jiki, I ask you the same thing. I think he's a 3 of in yours too as a matter of fact.

@Blood Moon: Blood moon doesnt just hurt Threshold. It hurts Stax, Survival, CAL, Mad Tog, and Affinity. Not to mention that when you use it with Goblin King, it makes decks like Affinity, Mad Tog, Survival lose.

@Pithing Needle: Needle doesn't just have to name Seismic Assault, you can hit cycling lands too. These will probably come out for Crypts though, it just seems like it works in more situations.

@Sparksmith: Can you explain why? He's pretty bomb here in worcester, he shoots apes and mages and whatever else seems to be bothering me at the time. He's also not expected, nobody playing Meddling Mage is going to name him. Same with Therapies.

calosso
03-29-2006, 03:16 PM
@Tinkerer: I do run 1 mainboard, but when you play in a meta where there is both Stax and Chant Stick, its nice to have a full slate. Pithing Needle is a horrible alternative. Needle wont stop Chalice for 1.

@Patron: How is that a viable arguement? The creature holding your Jitte can get incinerated just as easily! But, just wondering, how is Patron a better option than Goblin King against E. Plague? Im thinking about trading the Patron with Pyromancers instead. Goblin Pyromancer does what Patron does, but better. When you ask me why the fuck I would run a 5-CC creature other than Siege-Gang Commander or Kiki-Jiki, I ask you the same thing. I think he's a 3 of in yours too as a matter of fact.

@Blood Moon: Blood moon doesnt just hurt Threshold. It hurts Stax, Survival, CAL, Mad Tog, and Affinity. Not to mention that when you use it with Goblin King, it makes decks like Affinity, Mad Tog, Survival lose.

@Pithing Needle: Needle doesn't just have to name Seismic Assault, you can hit cycling lands too. These will probably come out for Crypts though, it just seems like it works in more situations.

@Sparksmith: Can you explain why? He's pretty bomb here in worcester, he shoots apes and mages and whatever else seems to be bothering me at the time. He's also not expected, nobody playing Meddling Mage is going to name him. Same with Therapies.

I have never played goblin assasin. I have played goblin wizards (The fucking tech for control).

If you fear stax so much run shattering spree.

Double plague kills goblin king for your information. Then right before the 2nd plague drops you can respond to patron of the akki instead of scooping your cards.

Why do you want to waste side board slots on decks that arenít even being played like Cal, survival, Tog, stax, and especially affinity? You should worry about decks that matter like dead guy, Gro, and white based control decks.

Why in the hell would you ever name cycle lands with pithing needle that is just terrible.

The reason sparksmith isnít played is because of the damage that he deals you. Also he isnít worth playing because he is not better than the goblin you probably have to cut him for.

SillyMetalGAT
03-29-2006, 03:31 PM
I have never played goblin assasin. I have played goblin wizards (The fucking tech for control).

If you fear stax so much run shattering spree.

Double plague kills goblin king for your information. Then right before the 2nd plague drops you can respond to patron of the akki instead of scooping your cards.

Why do you want to waste side board slots on decks that arenít even being played like Cal, survival, Tog, stax, and especially affinity? You should worry about decks that matter like dead guy, Gro, and white based control decks.

Why in the hell would you ever name cycle lands with pithing needle that is just terrible.

The reason sparksmith isnít played is because of the damage that he deals you. Also he isnít worth playing because he is not better than the goblin you probably have to cut him for.


@Shattering Spree: It sucks REALLY badly against Stax. If they drop Chalice for 1, the first copy gets countered, but if they drop 3sphere, its worthless.

@Wasting sideboard slots: These decks are played where I'm from so therefor it is good. But my sideboard is also good against deadguy (this is still a good deck?) and GRO.

@Sparksmith: What about when you play ZillaStompy and all you have is Mogg Fanatics? Or when that guy brings in Angel Stompy? He's good against opposing goblins as well.

@Pithing Needle: It was just an option that you have. Cutting off a cycle land does stall their draw engine correct?

@Goblin King: The reson why I run multiples is just because I can drop multiple copies! For each E. Plague they drop, I can drop another King. I can fetch as many as I need through Matrons..... Usually you will have more Kings then they will E. Plagues. Not to mention you can drop King off vial a lot easier than Patron.

calosso
03-29-2006, 03:40 PM
@Shattering Spree: It sucks REALLY badly against Stax. If they drop Chalice for 1, the first copy gets countered, but if they drop 3sphere, its worthless.

@Wasting sideboard slots: These decks are played where I'm from so therefor it is good. But my sideboard is also good against deadguy (this is still a good deck?) and GRO.

@Sparksmith: What about when you play ZillaStompy and all you have is Mogg Fanatics? Or when that guy brings in Angel Stompy? He's good against opposing goblins as well.

@Pithing Needle: It was just an option that you have. Cutting off a cycle land does stall their draw engine correct?

@Goblin King: The reson why I run multiples is just because I can drop multiple copies! For each E. Plague they drop, I can drop another King. I can fetch as many as I need through Matrons..... Usually you will have more Kings then they will E. Plagues. Not to mention you can drop King off vial a lot easier than Patron.

You are assuming the card is bad if the can drop both chalice and 3sphere that is not a ver good argument.

Did you completely forget about gempalm incinerator he can take down creatures as well. Angel stompy is already a bad match-up and your board does not improve it at all. Where as my board with jitteís can kill silver knights and soltari priest.

Being reactive against plague is terrible because a decent removal spell targeting a king will be a virtual wrath of god.
Patron on the other hand is pretty much the same thing but it is a bigger creature and a lot harder to deal with.
Also you can easily drop turn three patron by simply offering up a sharpshooter,matron,king, or warchief.

SillyMetalGAT
03-29-2006, 05:46 PM
@Sparksmith: I know the deck has Gempalms, I run 4. But I also dont run lightning bolt, so I have to make up for that with something. I already play 1 Goblin Sharpshooter and 2 Mogg Fanatic. So i threw in 1 Sparksmith and I must say, it hasn't hindered me yet. I also play Anarchy against Angel Stompy. Its not much, but its the best I can think of.

@Patron: Patron doesn't do anything to help against E. plague. I'd be better off splashing and running naturalize/disenchant. Whereas Goblin King is better because it lets you "shrug off" the E. Plagues effect. You only should need 1-2 turns after King hits the board anyways... The fact that you can Matron up one and then play it on the same turn deffinatly helps out immensely.

@Shattering Spree: Here's an example of something Stax does on a regular basis:

Turn 1: Drop Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, Tap Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, Drop Chalice for 1.

OR

Turn 1: Drop Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, Drop Mox Diamond discarding a land, Tap Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, play Trinisphere.

Sometimes they even get to go Chalice, Trinisphere. If your lucky enough to go first and drop Vial, you may be lucky enough to get out a Tinkerer. You would never get that chance with Shattering Spree.

calosso
03-29-2006, 06:18 PM
@Sparksmith: I know the deck has Gempalms, I run 4. But I also dont run lightning bolt, so I have to make up for that with something. I already play 1 Goblin Sharpshooter and 2 Mogg Fanatic. So i threw in 1 Sparksmith and I must say, it hasn't hindered me yet. I also play Anarchy against Angel Stompy. Its not much, but its the best I can think of.

@Patron: Patron doesn't do anything to help against E. plague. I'd be better off splashing and running naturalize/disenchant. Whereas Goblin King is better because it lets you "shrug off" the E. Plagues effect. You only should need 1-2 turns after King hits the board anyways... The fact that you can Matron up one and then play it on the same turn deffinatly helps out immensely.

@Shattering Spree: Here's an example of something Stax does on a regular basis:

Turn 1: Drop Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, Tap Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, Drop Chalice for 1.

OR

Turn 1: Drop Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, Drop Mox Diamond discarding a land, Tap Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, play Trinisphere.

Sometimes they even get to go Chalice, Trinisphere. If your lucky enough to go first and drop Vial, you may be lucky enough to get out a Tinkerer. You would never get that chance with Shattering Spree.


Why are you only running 2 fanatics? I have been able to fit 4 fanatics 4 incenerators, and a sharpshooter.

Also why wouldn't shattering spree be good in the first scenario/


Apperently you are not going to give up on the goblin king discussion. So I am gonna stop bothering.

Bane of the Living
03-29-2006, 07:10 PM
Maybe now would be a good time for both of you to post your lists and compare them card for card.

I have to say as both a stax and loam player that shattering spree isnt too big a deal. Also that needle on cycling lands is quite effective but crypt can be just as bad. You'll never nab lftl from my yard but you'll knock off a ton of my cycling lands which is what needle was going to do anyways. Yet now you have Crypt against Thresh, whereas needle is poo against them.

calosso
03-29-2006, 07:16 PM
My mono red board looks like this

3 pyrokensis
3 pithing needle
3 patron of the akki
3 crypt
3 jitte

Obfuscate Freely
03-29-2006, 08:03 PM
@Shattering Spree: It sucks REALLY badly against Stax. If they drop Chalice for 1, the first copy gets countered, but if they drop 3sphere, its worthless.
Trinisphere's cost modification is applied after any additional costs (such as Replicate or Kicker). Even if both Chalice and 3sphere are in play, Spree is at its worst a sorcery-speed Rack and Ruin.

Rack and Ruin is a pretty good card against Stax.

I just wanted to straighten that out.

SillyMetalGAT
03-29-2006, 09:25 PM
I meant to explain that it would cost 2R to play the actual spell, then R for each copy you wanted to make, but I think the point is obvious that Goblin Tinkerer is better.

Obfuscate Freely
03-29-2006, 09:50 PM
I meant to explain that it would cost 2R to play the actual spell, then R for each copy you wanted to make, but I think the point is obvious that Goblin Tinkerer is better.
And I meant to explain that you're wrong. If you play Spree with 2 Replicate copies, the additional cost of Replicate makes the spell cost RRR. This won't change the converted mana cost of the spell as it's played, so Chalice will still counter the original copy, but it will keep Trinisphere from further altering the cost.

Once more, With Chalice at 1 and 3sphere in play, paying RRR will get you 2 resolved copies of Shattering Spree, hence my comparison to Rack and Ruin.

I'm very skeptical that Shattering Spree is anything but strong against Stax.

Lego
03-29-2006, 10:23 PM
I played 2 Goblin King maindeck in Extended (it was a hot meta choice) and I found that he was anything but good in the mirror match. Is this different in Legacy? I suppose here, the deck is much more explosive, and you win the turn you play the King, yes? I know if you don't win the turn you play him, you lose, which has always been the reason I don't bring him in in the mirror, because I don't like guys sitting around in hand clogging things up, but I may be horribly wrong.

Also, I can't justify playing less than 4 Fanatic, 4 Gempalm.

SillyMetalGAT
04-13-2006, 04:05 PM
After the results of the DLD, what do people have to say about the condition Goblins is in? Does this deck need to evolve to survive or is it just too late? I saw quite a few Goblin decks, none of them made it to top 8 though. Is this to be expected in our meta now?

Bryant Cook
04-13-2006, 04:18 PM
After the results of the DLD, what do people have to say about the condition Goblins is in? Does this deck need to evolve to survive or is it just too late? I saw quite a few Goblin decks, none of them made it to top 8 though. Is this to be expected in our meta now?


None of the goblins there were PumpLand Goblins. Yes, there was versions with 3 burrows and 4 wastelands, but that just simply isn't enough. The deck is losing strength seeing as everydeck in the format is aim'd to beat it, and possibly gro.

AnwarA101
04-13-2006, 05:48 PM
The deck is losing strength seeing as everydeck in the format is aim'd to beat it, and possibly gro.

The problem is that all of those decks actually do beat it. Angel Stompy, Rifter, Solidarity, Gro, etc all beat the deck. Just look at the Top 8 for DLD and all the decks beat Goblins except Deadguy and Train Wreck (both of those decks have the option E.Plague in the board). Goblins does lose to almost all combo decks and is having problems with Control (Rifter) and aggro-control (Gro, Angel Stompy). When I was putting up a prediction about top 8 for the Dual Land Draft I included 2 Goblin decks in Top 8 because I thought sheer numbers would put the deck in Top 8, but it seems that the format has developed and other decks have caught up to it.

MattH
04-13-2006, 06:45 PM
I think the first question to ask is, WHO was piloting the goblin decks?

calosso
04-13-2006, 06:48 PM
I was the running the goblin deck with the 3 burrows and 4 wasteland, but I was also running the black splash.

Caleb
04-13-2006, 06:50 PM
Well, in the reports it seems as though no one really played gobblins-unless I'm thinking of the wrong tournament.

There was a 120 man 1.5 side event run at some GP or other really recently, and two versions of gobblins made T8.

Lego
04-14-2006, 04:14 AM
None of the goblins there were PumpLand Goblins. Yes, there was versions with 3 burrows and 4 wastelands, but that just simply isn't enough.

That's not true. I lent troopatroop the deck based on a list he had given me. He splashed green and ran 3 Burrows, 3 Skarrg. He also ran 2 MD Tin Street and two board, as well as some Tranquil Domains in the side, and he wanted to run a Skirk Fire Marhsall, but I'm not sure we found one in time. He only ran 3 Taigas because of a mishap, but I don't think he had any problems with it all day, running 6 fetches.

I'm not sure that this teched out version really makes anything better. The matchup against Gro is still bad, and Goblins is pretty easy to sideboard against. With Gro sticking around, and Rifter and Angel Stompy getting big fast, it simply doesn't look like the time for this deck to shine. If combo continues to gain in popularity as it has been doing, this will be even more true.

I don't think that any evolution can really save the deck. It's built around a core that is tough to change, and even makes heavy sideboarding difficult. There are certainly other things to try, like pushing the deck's clock ahead a turn or splashing black for MD disruption and maybe Living Death, but short of that I can't see any way for this deck to remain viable.

All of this is not to say that it isn't a good deck. It is, and will remain so, and one day when things shift towards control or they unban Goblin Recruiter (laugh) this deck will have its day in the sun once more.

Bane of the Living
04-14-2006, 08:08 AM
What were there like 6 gob decks? Leave it to me to be paired against 2 of them and lose! God damn maindeck Pyrokinesis.

I also agree that this deck has fallen out of tier 1 status. Its still a DTB but it certainly isnt a shoe in top 8 anymore. I dont think the black splash is going to save it. Living Death is still going to be bad against Thresh cause they wont let it resolve. Therapy is just too shitty to add imo.

How about this.. Whats the title of this thread?

We've been trying card advantage. What about speed? Anyone playing the deck in extended knows Chrome Mox is the only replacement for Vial. It pushes the decks win a turn earler quite often. We're already starting to replace denial lands for pump lands sans Humility and friends. Why not go all out and give the gobs more of a rush?

Either that or we replace gobs with affinity. The evil machine fears no silver knight!

Lego
04-14-2006, 12:15 PM
We've been trying card advantage. What about speed? Anyone playing the deck in extended knows Chrome Mox is the only replacement for Vial.

Not entirely ture. I found Seething Song in Extended to be a very good replacement for Vial. Although I ran that and Chrome Mox. Mox in place of lands, Song in place of Vial. I had a turn 2 win and several turn 3, while the deck's fundamental turn seemed to be 4. I think if you really want to go all out speed it necesitates things like a couple maindeck Pyromancers, more Siege-Gang Commanders, and possibly Kiki-Jiki to maintain CA. He's hot if you can Lackey into a Ringleader and then Seething Song into a Kiki-Jiki or something to that extent.


Either that or we replace gobs with affinity. The evil machine fears no silver knight!

I disagree. He fears the Silver Knight very much, because when the evil machine sees the Silver Knight coming, all he can expect to follow is Swords to Plowshares, Jittes, SoFI, and the dreaded, all powerful, all consuming Parallax Wave. Unless the Silver Knight is following a Duress or is followed by a Serendib Efreet, and then the constriction in his chest eases up, and the evil machine lays down his threats with more courage, eschews the fear, and proceeds to win (often off the back of Dark Confidant flipping Exalted Angel.)

Bryant Cook
04-14-2006, 12:37 PM
That's not true. I lent troopatroop the deck based on a list he had given me. He splashed green and ran 3 Burrows, 3 Skarrg. He also ran 2 MD Tin Street and two board, as well as some Tranquil Domains in the side, and he wanted to run a Skirk Fire Marhsall, but I'm not sure we found one in time. He only ran 3 Taigas because of a mishap, but I don't think he had any problems with it all day, running 6 fetches.

I'm not sure that this teched out version really makes anything better. The matchup against Gro is still bad, and Goblins is pretty easy to sideboard against. With Gro sticking around, and Rifter and Angel Stompy getting big fast, it simply doesn't look like the time for this deck to shine. If combo continues to gain in popularity as it has been doing, this will be even more true.

I don't think that any evolution can really save the deck. It's built around a core that is tough to change, and even makes heavy sideboarding difficult. There are certainly other things to try, like pushing the deck's clock ahead a turn or splashing black for MD disruption and maybe Living Death, but short of that I can't see any way for this deck to remain viable.

All of this is not to say that it isn't a good deck. It is, and will remain so, and one day when things shift towards control or they unban Goblin Recruiter (laugh) this deck will have its day in the sun once more.

You sir, are out of your mind. Rage pits, and Goblin Burrows make the match-up alot easier. I own both versions of goblins and gro, and have tested this to an extreme. Making a mogg fanatic trading with a Nimble mongoose or werebear is very very techy, not to mention busted. Not to mention it helps out the rifer match-up if your a decent enough player, to realize not to over extend (Trooptroop fails). When they have Humility out and you have 2 Pump lands play 1 goblin at a time and make them waste removal its the best thing you can do. This deck always comes back by the way, it's just as annoying as the energizer bunny. This deck has undergone so many transformations FCG, Gobsligh, Vialgoblins, and Gob Bidding it will continue to keep coming back because people love little red men.

Shriekmaw
04-17-2006, 11:27 PM
In the recent Duel Land Draft Tourney in Syracuse, the main reason Vial Goblins was down in terms of numbers is because of all the hate that it now has to run agaisnt. This does not mean that Vial Goblins in no longer a tier 1 deck, because it clearly is. The idea to be able to win on turn 3 with an aggro deck defines how powerful the deck is.

A few of the players that do play goblins and play goblins well, decided against it b/c we knew all the hate that was going to be there. I would argue that messing around with too many cards in the deck only leads to poor performances as the deck is fine tuned as is. I do like the idea of adding Goblins Burrows into the deck which I haven't tested at this point.

There will be a point where Grow and R/W Rifter will die down in popularity and Goblins will be right there in terms of numbers and good performance records. Until next time, peace.

Ewokslayer
04-18-2006, 08:53 AM
Not to mention it helps out the rifer match-up if your a decent enough player, to realize not to over extend (Trooptroop fails). When they have Humility out and you have 2 Pump lands play 1 goblin at a time and make them waste removal its the best thing you can do.

That plan isn't as effective as you make it sound.
Against Rifter then have Slice and Dice and Rifter activations. Actions that can be hardly considered to be wasted removal as they replace themselves. In addition both Wombat and Rifter run Rune of Protection. That alone makes the Pump land route pointless. Spending about 3 mana and an attack phase to tap a plains is not a winning strategy against either deck.

Bryant Cook
04-18-2006, 03:13 PM
That plan isn't as effective as you make it sound.
Against Rifter then have Slice and Dice and Rifter activations. Actions that can be hardly considered to be wasted removal as they replace themselves. In addition both Wombat and Rifter run Rune of Protection. That alone makes the Pump land route pointless. Spending about 3 mana and an attack phase to tap a plains is not a winning strategy against either deck.
Well you're also assuming that vial goblins doesn't have a way to deal with ROP. Because beleive it or not the deck runs disenchant effects, along with pithing neede, they both do a number on ROP:red.

Ewokslayer
04-18-2006, 03:30 PM
Well you're also assuming that vial goblins doesn't have a way to deal with ROP. Because beleive it or not the deck runs disenchant effects, along with pithing neede, they both do a number on ROP:red.
Those don't change the fact that the matchup is awful for Vial Goblins. The addition of pumps lands isn't going to change that significantly. Especially at the cost of being able to mana screw them with wastes and ports, though that works better against Wombat and keeping them off of Wrath mana as opposed to trying to keep Rifter off of Pyroclasm mana.
Hoping to draw needle or naturalize in a deck without a draw engine (for non-goblins) isn't a solution when the deck you are going up against does have a draw engine.
Pumplands might allow goblins to win an extra game or two against Rifter but their absence wasn't the reason goblins didn't top 8.
Goblins didn't top 8 because:
1)the metagame was prepared for it
2)it didn't show up in a distortingly large amount
3)their pilots either made a mistake/got unlucky

Bryant Cook
04-18-2006, 04:40 PM
Those don't change the fact that the matchup is awful for Vial Goblins. The addition of pumps lands isn't going to change that significantly. Especially at the cost of being able to mana screw them with wastes and ports, though that works better against Wombat and keeping them off of Wrath mana as opposed to trying to keep Rifter off of Pyroclasm mana.
Hoping to draw needle or naturalize in a deck without a draw engine (for non-goblins) isn't a solution when the deck you are going up against does have a draw engine.
Pumplands might allow goblins to win an extra game or two against Rifter but their absence wasn't the reason goblins didn't top 8.
Goblins didn't top 8 because:
1)the metagame was prepared for it
2)it didn't show up in a distortingly large amount
3)their pilots either made a mistake/got unlucky


First off, I never claimed that the deck has a good match-up against rifter. So, I have no idea why you would bring that up. Secondly, have you tested this match-up at all? You going strictly off theory doesn't mean shit.

1.) Pumplands do matter. They also make the gro match-up alot better. Making fanatic trade with everything but fatties. Because I know how much port and wasteland help out the rifter match-up sooo much.
2.) If you Sb 6-8 naturalize/needles you will draw one or two not to mention tranquil domain. Draw engine or not there's a reason people without draw engines use a SB.

Dr.ugs
04-18-2006, 05:34 PM
After seeing that this deck is loosing some if its strenght because most decks are preparing I think that this deck needs some changes.

There are 2 directions that came into my mind.The first one is the adding burning wish to the maindeck.Before arguing that it is not a goblin I beg you to test it.



// Lands
6 Mountain
4 Goblin Burrows
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
1 Goblin King
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Pyromancer/Sparksmith/Mogg Fanatic #4/Tin street/Sharpshooter
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Siege-Gang Commander

// Spells
4 Burning Wish
4 AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Flashfires
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Ruination
SB: 1 Anarchy
SB: 1 Tsunami
SB: 2 Hull Breach
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Cave-In
SB: 4 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 1 Goblin King
SB: 1 Tin Street Hooligan

I do believe that Burning Wish is better than a playing even more goblins because it fixes some machtups and it is gamebreaking versus a lot of decks.I am also running a full set of Burrows because I think that it is the right call for the current meta.Wasteland and Port were good against landstill but against Rifter,***** and Solidaritiy I would rather have Burrows and you should not worry about random decks anyway.

Just look at the bomz that Wish allows you.
Ruination
Tsunami
Hull Breach
Pyroclasm/Cave-In
Flashfires
Anarchy

This gives you a lot of options against your worst machtup which sure is rifter.Against the mirror you have a new kind of tech:Playing the control deck just wait until he has his army sweep the board and fuck em up with ringleaders.

Tangle Wire is also a card which I like but no one seems to care about it but I think its very strong against almost everything because it fits perfect in a deck like this(then I would swap back to Wasteland and Port).


The second option is to swap back to goblin sligh with maindeck Kami of the Ancient Law and Lightning Helix as replacement for Incinerate but I doubt that this is the right choice however Goblin Sligh is also a strong deck and has some advantages over Vial and people should work on it too.

Shriekmaw
04-18-2006, 10:18 PM
I do believe Goblin Burrows and adding a second color to the Goblins build may be worth consideration in testing with but I don't think Burning Wish is going to solve any problems. I would stay with the aggro approach and maybe splash a second color such as green or white to make some matchups better.

The biggest problem that I have seen is either engineered plague which seems to be in about every sideboard in the game or against decks that have red for pyroclasm. I don't know why you would focus on putting Burning Wish in there, it seems to go against the vary principles that have made this deck one of the best decks to play in the past.

Dr.ugs
04-19-2006, 07:57 AM
The biggest problem that I have seen is either engineered plague which seems to be in about every sideboard in the game or against decks that have red for pyroclasm. I don't know why you would focus on putting Burning Wish in there, it seems to go against the vary principles that have made this deck one of the best decks to play in the past.

Burning Wish gives you a way to get rid of Plague.Even game 1 against decks running it main.Against Deadguy getting a HullBreach and killing Scroll and Plague is like turning the game around.Pyroclasm is another problem that can be solved with a the green splash(Caller of the Claw).
Burning Wish does not weaken your strategy the deck does not get that much less aggressive because it still runs a lot of Goblins and I still hit 2-3 Gobs almost every time when Ringleader hits the table.

Bane of the Living
04-19-2006, 05:23 PM
1.) Pumplands do matter. They also make the gro match-up alot better. Making fanatic trade with everything but fatties. Because I know how much port and wasteland help out the rifter match-up sooo much.
2.) If you Sb 6-8 naturalize/needles you will draw one or two not to mention tranquil domain. Draw engine or not there's a reason people without draw engines use a SB.

Actually most of my game one wins against Rifter are won by vialing out my horde and keeping them off double white for Humility via port and occasionally wasteland. You can sometimes race Humility and hope for the best.

I think players that rant about pump lands against thresh need to take a closer look at how to play their denial lands. Its easy to keep an opponent of green mana for the thresh critters. I know tapping a trop during upkeep and having your opponent respond with Brainstorm is gay. But it stops Mongoose from showing up another turn. This has always been the strategy that works for me.

@Dr.ugs
Nice to see we actually agree on something altho you obviously saw me suggest wish like 2-3 pages ago. jk jk

Wish has been quite nice in testing, its only slow in games without accel, which your probably gonna lose anyways.

SillyMetalGAT
04-19-2006, 05:29 PM
Not to mention that you only have to run 3 sometimes.... its not always needed.

calosso
04-19-2006, 05:35 PM
I personnally do not like the B. wish varient but if you are going to run why not try accelerated goblins varient.
In GP philly a goblin deck that ran ancient tomb, city of traitors and chrome mox made day 2 and I kinda liked it, but the reason I bring it up is because the burning wish plan is rather slow so why not run the accelerated plan so you can abuse the wish plan even more.
Also try to fit in a recoup in your wish board so you can re-use your wish targets.

Dr.ugs
04-19-2006, 05:59 PM
@Calosso:Recoup does not belong in every Wish board I think and Recouping a Wish target seems to be really slow I would rather Wish for something else.Against any deck you should have more than one card that should work fine.
When I would run accelarated goblins I would not run Burning Wish I would run stuff like Goon(!),seething song,more SGC and maybe even pattern.Skirk Prospector also seems like a good choice for accelerated goblins.


@bane
I like pump lands a lot more than Wasteland against Thresh.With all the cantrips a regular Thresh deck is running he will find another green mana very easy and then they might drop Werebear and they have two green mana sources.Also even though this argument is rather rather unimpressive Wasteland helps them to get Thresh faster and when they reach Thresh their creatures are bigger then yours.The later the gets Thresh the better.I would make my goblins a lot more aggresive and make them think twice before attacking with their creatures.Goblin Goon is also an option that was not mentioned I think.

Burning Wish is not the fastest deck but at the time where you could cast Wish you should have other options so you only cast Wish when you need it.During testing I found out that Wish does not significantly slow you down.

ps:No I did not saw your suggestions because every time normally when I see your nick above I post I stop reading unless I am expecting some kind of flame.

Lego
04-20-2006, 10:54 AM
Pyroclasm is another problem that can be solved with a the green splash(Caller of the Claw).

This has been talked about before, and it is not a very good answer. Not only is it not a Goblin, so does not interact with *any* of the other cards in your deck, it is a 2/2 for 2G in an aggro deck, and it requires you to make sub-optimal plays. You can play around Pyroclasm and Wrath of God with skill, and don't need crutches like Caller. I've never tested him, soI'll admit that I'm just going on assumption here. He seems like he'd win you a few games but lose you more than he'd win. I'd prefer to rely on playskill.

Shriekmaw
04-20-2006, 07:16 PM
I was always a big fan of the mono-red build of Vial Goblins. I know that it doesn't have the sb choices like a green or a white splash would, but I like to run the most optimal deck when I play Goblins. A very good player with Goblins will find ways to get around the hate some of the time, but its tough when you have to deal with it in almost every matchup.

I don't mess with a deck that is still a tier 1 even though it has died down a little bit from all the hate that is brought into tournaments.

Caleb
04-20-2006, 07:59 PM
I've always wanted to do a R/G gobblin deck with living wish so you can vial in random toolbox cards. It'd be slow as hell, but it'd help find ways out against the hate.

Tao
04-20-2006, 08:23 PM
This has been talked about before, and it is not a very good answer. Not only is it not a Goblin, so does not interact with *any* of the other cards in your deck, it is a 2/2 for 2G in an aggro deck, and it requires you to make sub-optimal plays. You can play around Pyroclasm and Wrath of God with skill, and don't need crutches like Caller. I've never tested him, soI'll admit that I'm just going on assumption here. He seems like he'd win you a few games but lose you more than he'd win. I'd prefer to rely on playskill.

I really didn't want to post on this matter again. But this post forces me to do it. Your post is really extremely stupid. What kind of silly argument is "just play better" and "I've never tested him, but I rely on my playskill"?

First of all: In a deck with at least 30 1/1 or 2/2 creatures (some of them being Mogg Fanatic) Caller is never, never ever only a 2/2 for 3 Mana. He is always 2 2/2 but especially post Board you often get 2-4 Tokens plus Caller herself.

The thing is: What are you doing, when you play around Clasm and Wrath? Right. You are playing less threats and therefore have Mana free. And in these situation Caller is a great play.

As an additional bonus Caller dodges really all Hate Goblin may face: It dodges Red Hate (Blue Blast, Hydroblast, Circle/Rune of Protection, Sphere of Law), it helps against Mass Removal (Clasms, Wraths, Vengeances, Deed/Mutilate) and it dodges pure Goblin Hate (Engineered Plague, Tivadar's Crusade).

AnwarA101
04-20-2006, 08:45 PM
I was actually considering Burning Wish for awhile with this deck (though I was considering a black splash), before I didn't really bother with the deck. I'm less and less impressed with the deck everytime I play against it. I was blown away by the deck last summer and fall (around the time of the GP), but now it seems like so many decks beat the deck. Perhaps people have adjusted but for the most part I think other decks have gotten better and Goblins has been unable to improve. This isn't an attack on Goblins just a sober assessment of the deck's cability. For example, I've personally beaten the deck with the following decks in the past couple of months -

Iggy-Pop
Belcher (Yes Belcher!)
Angel Stompy
Suicide Black
Gro

I just don't think the deck is as good as it once was. The decks in Legacy have just gotten better and they can beat Goblins. You only need to look at the most recent Dual Land Draft for some confirmation of that fact.

kirdape3
04-20-2006, 09:08 PM
I don't really think that Caller of the Claw is necessary, actually. It breaks down to these scenarios:

1) They have mass removal and you don't have Caller of the Claw or G2 to cast him: No result. The antisynergy between Caller and the rest of your deck has come to nothing, as you now have a 2/2 creature for 3 mana that doesn't get or give any bonuses to the rest of your deck.

2) They have mass removal and you do have Caller and the mana: That's the control deck's worst nightmare. They Wrath/Mutilate/whatever, and now you end the turn with six or eight (or more) power on the board. That's probably game ending even if they do hold the second Wrath - you just get to not waste your second Goblin wave playing into it.

3) They don't have mass removal and you don't have Caller: When this happens, most of the time hilarity ensues. Their deck isn't operating normally, while yours has the same chance that it normally does. How rucky, Shaggy.

4) They don't have mass removal and you do have Caller: This and 1) are the scenarios that make Caller of the Claw less than amazing. In this case, you have a 2/2 creature that has no synergy with the other 56 cards in your deck and that requires exposing yourself to your splash color just to cast.

I can certainly think of better cards to play than Caller of the Claw if you want to defeat mass removal. Unless it's actually Wrath of God (in which case, you CAN play around that card most of the time successfully), Patron of the Akki shrugs off most of the damage-based removal currently in the format and can be cost off the dead bodies of your own Goblins for as little as one mana. For the permanent-based hate, you can run anything from Pithing Needle to Anarchy to stop that. And if they want to spend their mana and cards playing 1 for 1 answers to my threats while I reload with Ringleader, then that's fine with me too (here's looking at you, BEB/Hydroblast).

Zilla
04-20-2006, 09:20 PM
3) They don't have mass removal and you don't have Caller: When this happens, most of the time hilarity ensues. Their deck isn't operating normally, while yours has the same chance that it normally does. How rucky, Shaggy.
It should be noted that this scenario is actually worse than you make it out to be, because it weakens your Ringleader consistency as well.

Lego
04-20-2006, 10:58 PM
For example, I've personally beaten the deck with the following decks in the past couple of months -

Iggy-Pop
Belcher (Yes Belcher!)
Angel Stompy
Suicide Black
Gro

Four of those decks should be heavily favored versus Goblins, while the last is about even. Saying that Goblins is a bad deck because it loses to Angel Stompy seems a bit weak.

That being said, your post makes a bit more sense taken in light of the fact that so many decks with have a positive matchup versus Goblins are becoming more popular. Combo decks, Angel Stompy, Rifter, and others all have positive matchups versus Goblins and they are all becoming larger metagame presences than Goblins right now. Eventually people will start taking out the Goblins hate, but this won't change some of these matchups and the presence of these decks in the field gives Goblins a tough time.

frogboy
04-20-2006, 11:45 PM
It's entirely possible I bear more hatred for Angel Stompy than anyone else on the planet, but it has a significant metagame presence that is growing. I would not discount it in my testing; indeed, it is one of the few decks that I actually test against.

Bane of the Living
04-22-2006, 02:14 PM
I agree, Angel Stompy is a deck I've had to beat at my local tourny for a good 2 years solid every week. Its been putting up decent to great numbers in big tournies as well. In my eyes it deserves DTB status over Deadguy.

Lego
04-22-2006, 02:28 PM
In my eyes it deserves DTB status over Deadguy.

Noooo, don't say this!!!! Angel Stompy isn't good. It has good matchups against Goblins, and no one plays Goblins. Stompy sucks against everything else! It loses to every combo deck it sees, and it can hardly beat Thresh or Deadguy and, and, and, it sucks!!

What people don't realize about their pet decks is that if you do something as simple as promoting them to The Source DTB forum, you're going to increase the amount of sideboarding and theory that goes into planning for them by quite a lot, even at random tournaments. We've got a lot of members here.

In the end, I'm not too worried about that with Angel Stompy though. The sideboard options against the deck are limited, and don't hurt it as much as one would assume, as long as you know how to play the deck.

Shriekmaw
04-22-2006, 02:33 PM
I guess Lego Army Man doesn't want everyone to play Angel Stompy, then he will not know what to play. :)

I do agree that maybe 3 Color Angel Stompy desrves to be meantine as a DTB deck as it posts good results, via Phil Stolze.

Angel Stompy has good game against Goblins, Threshold, and most other Aggro decks in the field. Maybe thats why its a good metagame call in big tournaments.

Sorry to ruin your dream Lego Army Man!

AnwarA101
04-22-2006, 03:08 PM
Four of those decks should be heavily favored versus Goblins, while the last is about even. Saying that Goblins is a bad deck because it loses to Angel Stompy seems a bit weak.

That being said, your post makes a bit more sense taken in light of the fact that so many decks with have a positive matchup versus Goblins are becoming more popular. Combo decks, Angel Stompy, Rifter, and others all have positive matchups versus Goblins and they are all becoming larger metagame presences than Goblins right now. Eventually people will start taking out the Goblins hate, but this won't change some of these matchups and the presence of these decks in the field gives Goblins a tough time.

Which four decks should have a favorable game against Goblins? Okay I'll accept Iggy-Pop, Belcher, and Angel Stompy, but Suicide Black? Is that what you meant? As for Gro its seems like the addition of Pithing Needle really hurts Goblins.

Bane of the Living
04-22-2006, 03:19 PM
Why does everyone talk about Iggy like its a real deck? Its not as good as Salvager Game or Nausea. It is scary how gobs is on a downward spiral but then again im not sure I care.

kicks_422
04-28-2006, 09:18 PM
Here's the deck I'm running:

10 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Goblin Burrows

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin King
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Aether Vial

SIDEBOARD
1 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Goblin King
4 Anarchy
4 Pithing Needle

Goblins get rolled over by bigger creatures, so I tried making my own even bigger...

When it's called for, 4 Goblin Kings make the little green men not so little anymore... With the added oomph of Burrows, they can take down big creatures 1 for 1...

I kept Port and Wasteland out because Port really doesn't help against the deck's worse match-ups, and Wasteland isn't really helping when all decks are being built with it in mind...

I can go 4 Kings in the MD, with 3 Tinkerers and 3 Shooters in the board... Tinkerers for random artifact decks (Scepter comes into mind) and Shooter for dork decks (lots of 1/1's)... It's just that I've been facing lots of Scepter decks in MWS so I have one in the main... :D

Marco
04-29-2006, 02:22 PM
So, a new direction for Goblins (or rather an old direction)?

Instead of Wasteland and Rishadan Port or Goblin Burrows and Skarrg, the Rage Pits, how about neither?

Does anyone think this deck list has merits?

4 Null Rod

4 Food Chain

4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Skirk Prospector

4 Bloodstained Mire
9 Mountain
2 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills

Without Goblin Recruiter it is possible to "fizzle" when "going off", and you have to rely on Kiki-Jiki to copy Ringleaders.

Null Rod isn't nearly as potent in Legacy as it is in Vintage. It negates "Vial superiority" in the mirror match, shuts off Nevinyrral's Disk (is Landstill making a come back?) and Sword of Fire and Ice. It also stops Lion's Eye Diamond combos and other artifact accelerants.

If Null Rod isn't worth it (the jury is still out), you can replace them with Aether Vials or more Goblins.

Thoughts?

Eldariel
04-29-2006, 02:54 PM
This is entirely wrong format for Null Rod. It isn't worth it in the maindeck and probably not even on the SB. Remember, Threshold is the #1 deck in the field and will be even more so if people start running more combo. Also, Pikula has precious few targets (2 Cursed Scrolls) and Rifter can ignore the Rod. It's simply not as good as Pithing Needle, since precious few decks run enough activated artifact-abilities to make Null Rod better than Needle and Needles hits a larger variety of targets, costs less and is overall better.

Also, what care you about Vial Superiority if you're planning to go combo anyways? Besides, with Food Chain, you have even higher need for maximizing your number of Goblins. And why exactly not play a few Skarrgs when you're splashing green anyways, and they'd help you win the games you don't draw Food Chain in?

Marco
04-29-2006, 09:29 PM
You make some good points. Here's version 2.0:

4 Food Chain

4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin King? 2 Goblin Pyromancer? 2 Goblin Goon?
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Skirk Prospector

4 Bloodstained Mire
8 Mountain
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills

I upped the land count by one as I can see this deck getting mana screwed. Maybe Ancient Tombs or artifact mana (Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal) are in order? Although this deck needs/wants a critical mass of Goblins to maximize Goblin Lackey and Goblin Ringleader broken-ness.

That said, I've been trying to find a Goblin deck that I could fit Bloodline Shaman (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?set=Onslaught&name=bloodline_shaman#) into (for the same reason that Sligh decks play with Dark Confidant, to draw two cards per turn). No, Bloodline Shaman is not a Goblin, but she's the only non-Goblin, non-mana source in the deck. And if you name "Goblin" as the creature type (duh), there's a very good chance that you'll be putting a Goblin into your hand.

Thoughts?

calosso
04-30-2006, 10:40 AM
Why don't you run the mana accelerants the old food chain goblins ran which were

3 Ancient tombs

4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Bongo
04-30-2006, 02:57 PM
This is probably pretty controversial, but I'm testing a build without Aether Vial at the moment.

Aether Vial was a bad topdeck after the first two turns and was subpar when not played because of the Goblin rule. Instead of including stuff like Food Chain, Burning Wish and other shenanigans, I think it is better to run more Goblins for additional synergy.

My current testing list:

Lands:
10x Mountain
4x Wasteland
8x Fetchland

Creatures:
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Mogg Fanatic
2x Goblin Vandal
2x Skirk Prospector

4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Mogg Flunkies

4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Matron
1x Goblin King

4x Goblin Ringleader
1x Goblin Pyromancer

Manacurve:
1) 12
2) 12
3) 9
4) 5

This build plays more aggressively than the Vial version. No Ports here because it is too mana-intensive with Vial and competes with Goblin-drops. 8 Fetches because they thin out the deck for slightly more efficient Ringleaders, you also don't want to topdeck land in the lategame. They also allow for the white splash in the board.

Mogg Flunkies may seem janky, but are very good with Warchief and fit nicely into the mana-curve, providing a two-drop besides Piledriver (technically, Incinerator is also a two-drop, but you get the point). The drawback is mostly a non-factor and they've done their job if they attack more than two times. The fact that Flunkies survive Pyroclasm is also nice.

Prospector can speed up the deck and allow for some explosive plays, and Vandal can occasionally be useful against Aether Vial, Pithing Needle and equipment, although it's main function is as a one-drop for the manacurve. Not having any first turn play is really bad for an aggressive deck.
These two are merely experimental, let me know if there are better one-drop Goblins (Goblin Firestarter may be a decent option).


Basically, I think that Goblins should focus more on an aggressive earlygame than the lategame. That's why I cut some cute but slow tricks like Tinkerer and Sharpshooter. SGC and Kiki are great, but not if you don't have Lackey or a lot of mana. This eases the reliance on Lackey and reduces the number of dead cards in the first few turns.

Let me know what you think about this approach.

frogboy
04-30-2006, 04:21 PM
Aether Vial is the best card in the deck. I will keep a hand with two Aether Vials and a piece of mana disruption with no creatures because it's literally that good.

Also, given that you want to hit your first five land drops, 22 land is way too low. Note that Vial lets you cheat that somewhat, but even so you probably want to run at least 24 land.

Also, what happens when you get Wrathed or Crusaded and then your opponent counters your Ringleader?

Edited because tags are lame :/

Bongo
04-30-2006, 05:15 PM
As expected.

I didn't say Aether Vial is a bad card, but rather that it *might* be better to run more Goblins. The thought crossed my mind because Aether Vial was often a dead draw after turn 3 and it sucked revealing Vial with a Ringleader.
Although your post is pretty accurate, I view the following two things differently:


Aether Vial is the best card in the deck. I will keep a hand with two Aether Vials and a piece of mana disruption with no creatures because it's literally that good.

I would be careful with statements like this. I have lost games exactly because I kept hands like you described above. When you draw something like Land, Fanatic, Land (or any suboptimal cards)- the game is as good as over. This hand is only keepable if you've got Matron or Ringleader, and even then might be too slow.


Also, given that you want to hit your first five land drops, 22 land is way too low. Note that Vial lets you cheat that somewhat, but even so you probably want to run at least 24 land.

The first three land drops are enough. I have found 22 to be a pretty good number, with or without Vials.



Also, what happens when you get Wrathed or Crusaded and then your opponent counters your Ringleader?

This is the most compelling argument for Vial. In fact, this argument alone might be enough to include Vial (again).


Leaving that aside for the moment, what are your thoughts about Mogg Flunkies?
They even increase Vial's effectiveness since you now have 8 two-drops. I like them.

frogboy
04-30-2006, 07:19 PM
All they do is beat and you have to cut cards that actually do things to fit them. I don't like them very much.

Ringleader's effectiveness is decreased greatly if you can't actually cast him, much less multiples of the guys you drew off him.

And I kept the hand described in the top eight of a PTQ. And won.

bigredmeanie
04-30-2006, 09:48 PM
In extended, some people run Chrome Mox instead of Vial, because it's faster.

kirdape3
04-30-2006, 10:11 PM
In Extended, AEther Vial is banned. They'd run Vial almost for sure if it was legal, since it sets up some degenerate turns.

Lego
05-01-2006, 12:21 AM
In Extended, AEther Vial is banned. They'd run Vial almost for sure if it was legal, since it sets up some degenerate turns.

QFT. I simply stopped playing Goblins when Vial was banned. When I randomly picked it up for a PTQ (at which I finished second) I replaced the Vials with Seething Song. If you want to try some explosive Goblins, try some of that action. Turn 3 Ringleader, Piledriver, Piledriver, win. Check. Turn 2 Warchief, Piledriver, Piledriver, with one already in play? I'll take that. There were so many broken plays I could make with that thing and Chrome Mox. If you're going to pitch Vial, just run them both. It's rarely a horrible topdeck, and it's more explosive than Vial :)

bigredmeanie
05-01-2006, 12:21 AM
I know Vial is banned in extended, my point is that when it wasn't some successful lists either ran 4/2 3/3 or just Mox because it's faster than Vial. Those same lists also didn't get cute with Kiki or King, they ran 4 Siege gang Commanders as well as 4 Prospectors. Those list were consistantly at least half a turn faster, and would be more so in legacy because of Lacky.


Another idea is to run Bidding and Therapy, either main or in the board. Bidding in the board seems like it would be great for the deck.

Ridiculous Hat
05-01-2006, 04:39 PM
I know Vial is banned in extended, my point is that when it wasn't some successful lists either ran 4/2 3/3 or just Mox because it's faster than Vial. Those same lists also didn't get cute with Kiki or King, they ran 4 Siege gang Commanders as well as 4 Prospectors. Those list were consistantly at least half a turn faster, and would be more so in legacy because of Lacky.


Another idea is to run Bidding and Therapy, either main or in the board. Bidding in the board seems like it would be great for the deck.Nobody in extended ran less than 4 vial. 4 vial/2 mox was standard configuration.

Shriekmaw
05-08-2006, 01:00 PM
During the Mirrodin block in standard the most powerful card was Aether Vial in my opinion. It made Goblins and Affinity really good if they weren't good enough. Through my experience with both of these decks, I would always prefer to have Aether Vial in the deck rather than Chrome Mox. I prefer almost all the time to have card advantage over speed. Goblins is a very fast deck to begin with and vial just makes it that much better.

The matchups that I tough usually for Vial Goblins are Grow w/red splash, Angel Stompy, R/W Rifter. I'm not sure that splashing another color is the best idea in Vial Goblins. I'm a big fan of the mono-red build. I don't know if thats the best strategy at this point. What do you think?

Kadishack
05-08-2006, 03:42 PM
During the Mirrodin block in standard the most powerful card was Aether Vial in my opinion. It made Goblins and Affinity really good if they weren't good enough. Through my experience with both of these decks, I would always prefer to have Aether Vial in the deck rather than Chrome Mox. I prefer almost all the time to have card advantage over speed. Goblins is a very fast deck to begin with and vial just makes it that much better.

The matchups that I tough usually for Vial Goblins are Grow w/red splash, Angel Stompy, R/W Rifter. I'm not sure that splashing another color is the best idea in Vial Goblins. I'm a big fan of the mono-red build. I don't know if thats the best strategy at this point. What do you think?

I agree with the vial over chrome mox statement.

But I am a huge supporter in that goblins needs a second color. Because engineered plague wrecks them along with humility and reverence and or moat. I mean sure, they have seige and sharpshooter for reverence and moat but it takes a while to set up. I believe they either need to splash green or white. White gives you the better game vs. control w/ armageddon also disenchant, stp but green is good also because it gives you naturalize andd most importantly tin-street hooligan which is a goblin and kills artifacts from the md. That's just my opinion.

Sims
05-08-2006, 03:49 PM
I actually still agree with IBA's sentiment that Tranquil Domain (or Tempest of Light in the white spectrum) are better than Naturalize/Disenchant in the Goblins board due to their ability to axe off multiple Enchantments. Wiping a Humility AND a Rift is so much better than having to choose one, as is killing both of those Plagues instead of still being crippled. Plus Tin-Street is the Bees Knees.

The black splash is an old plan, and has some bomb cards from the board. However you lose your ability to kill (effectively) the things that hurt you most in Plague, Humility, Moat, etc. So I'm not sure how effective that strategy would be.

lillelassie
05-08-2006, 04:37 PM
still I think that ***** is this decks baddest matchup.. could meekstone be a possible answer? it completely locks down there creatures.. I know they can still defend with them, but at least we will have all the time in the world to win since IF they run artifact-removal its typically only 2 naturalize in the side..

calosso
05-08-2006, 05:13 PM
How is threshold goblins worst match-up. Have you completely forgotten about rifter and wombat. I believe a deck almost specifically built to beat aggro decks is worse for goblins then threshold.

I have tested meekstone in the Duel for dual and it was very good. All you really have to do against threshold is to grind them out before they fight through all 4 ringleaders.

PTBNL
05-08-2006, 05:54 PM
Why not splash multiple colors? I don't think there's too much of a drawback and we get access to more sideboard weapons. Green gives us enchantment removal and Hooligans. White gives us enchantment removal and Shared Triumph. Black gives us Cabal Therapy and Perish.

Here's a 4-color list I've been testing:
MD
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Burrows
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain
2 Taiga
2 Badlands
2 Plateau
SB
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ray of Revelation
4 Shared Triumph
3 Anarchy

Hooligans are key in the Threshold matchup because they deal with Needle which can shut down our Vial, Burrows, or Incinerator. Hooligans are also good against Angel Stompy by destroying Jitte and SoFI. Shared Triumph is there for Engineered Plague, though Ray of Revelation is an option. Triumph benefits us even when Plague isn't there, it saves our 1/1's, and it helps against Cursed Scroll. Ray of Revelation works even when discarded by Duress or Hymn, and can trade 2 for 1. Shared Triumph can also help in the Rifter matchup against Pyroclasm, Humility, Lightning Rift, and cycled Slice and Dice. Cabal Therapy is strong against both combo and control, and Anarchy is there for the Angel Stomply matchup.

Of course, the above list is only a starting point. Maybe there should be more duals or maybe splashing two colors is enough or whatever, but the main point is to explore the effectiveness of adding multiple colors.

As a side note, I think Goblins has a favorable matchup against Threshold, according to my testing. Preboard, just build up a huge army, Incinerate the flyers, and roll in. Burrows really makes it tough for Thresh to deal with our creatures, since they can all trade with Mongoose. Postboard, it gets trickier. Against Pyroclasm (or Tivadar's Crusade), I side in Therapy. Thresh can't just wait for us to overextend since we can proactively remove the Pyroclasm or see if the coast is clear, and the Flashback allows Therapy to fight through countermagic. Against Worship, I side in a mix of Therapy and Revelation/Perish. Therapy clears away to the countermagic, and Revelation or Perish deals with Worship.

Bongo
05-08-2006, 06:19 PM
The problem I have found with Hooligan is its nombo with Goblin Warchief. And getting a Warchief on the board asap is something a good Goblin player should do.


While the crazy 4-color version may have some merits, you lose one of the biggest assets you have: a rock-solid manabase (especially in the monored versions).

------------------------------------------


I strongly recommend Mogg Flunkies in VialGoblins. This is because they survive the following things:

1. Pyroclasm
2. Lightning Rift (single activation)
3. Magma Jet, Fire Ice
4. opposing Goblins


Additionally, they fill the 2-spot nicely and thus make Vial even more effective. Flunkies also are very strong with Warchief, the 3/3 body has been very useful in testing. Although minor, the fact that two Flunkies alone can attack was sometimes game-winning.

Stuff like Tinkerer and Sharpshooter are nice in theory, but were often sitting in my hand in actual games. In my opinion, Vial Goblins should focus on beating down as fast as possible, not playing cutie ability tricks.

Yeah, Flunkies may seem like crap, but beatdown very well.

calosso
05-08-2006, 07:29 PM
Why not run Goblin goon instead? He is fatter then mongooses, and bears I would run him over flunkies.

Bane of the Living
05-08-2006, 10:12 PM
Im considering a switch to goon as well. He's really fat, often he's one of those gobs you swords or die from, such as piledriver.

SillyMetalGAT
05-08-2006, 10:18 PM
The other nice thing about Goblin Goon is that often times players will block him over, say, a warchief, just so they wouldn't take a whopping 6. He's also nuts with Warchief. Can you say 4th turn Goon and Piledriver?? GG nub.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
05-08-2006, 10:47 PM
The problem I have found with Hooligan is its nombo with Goblin Warchief. And getting a Warchief on the board asap is something a good Goblin player should do.


I've asked this multiple times, every single time someone tried to bring this up; what artifact do you care about that hasn't already killed your Warchief? The only artifacts that are remotely relevant are ones that kill your creatures. Tin-Street Hooligan kills Jitte, Cursed Scroll, and Sword of Fire/Ice, because if those cards are on the table, Warchief isn't.

Shriekmaw
05-08-2006, 11:46 PM
Stuff like Tinkerer and Sharpshooter are nice in theory, but were often sitting in my hand in actual games. In my opinion, Vial Goblins should focus on beating down as fast as possible, not playing cutie ability tricks.


By making the above statement, you obviously don't under the deck of Vial Goblins too well, if your calling tinkerer and sharpshooter cute ability tricks. Sharpshooter lets you win so many games, its simple amazing and should be in the deck. If you cutting sharpshooter out, your losing on the ability of goblins being a resilient deck.

Tinkerer is very important in killing many artifacts that simple win games. I don't know maybe like jitte, sword of fire & ice, opposing aether vials.

There is a reason why Goblins is a tier 1 deck. Do not remove key cards in the deck just because they are not creatures that beat.

My Name Is Scott
05-09-2006, 01:46 AM
Sharpshooter lets you win so many games, its simple amazing and should be in the deck. If you cutting sharpshooter out, your losing on the ability of goblins being a resilient deck.
Maybe if you're playing against breserk affinity all day, but sharpshooter is nearly useless against the most played decks. Sharpshooter has a really hard time getting active against zoo. If you're concerned about the mirror, the extra pyromancer is better. If you're concerned about gro/zoo, goblin goon seems like it would be a whole lot better(and if not, pyromancer is a whole lot more useful anyway). The point is that you have better options in most metagames, and sharpshooter does a whole lot of just sitting there being terrible (depending on your metagame, of course).

Marco
05-09-2006, 11:47 AM
No one has an opinion on Bloodline Shaman (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?set=Onslaught&name=bloodline_shaman#)? C'mon, Caller of the Claw and Brass Herald got more discussion than this!

Sims
05-09-2006, 02:32 PM
Okay, here is your discussion:

A.) It's a fraile 1/1 for 2.
B.) It will require a turn to become unsick, aside from e.o.t Vial, so it's an easy target.
C.) It's not a Goblin and it's ability, for how slow it is, is not enough to make up for replacing Goblins from the deck with it.
D.) Ringleader is strictly superior.

Bongo
05-09-2006, 07:31 PM
@Goblin Goon: while Goon is a big fat beater, it costs twice as much as Mogg Flunkies. Coupled with the fact that Flunkies fit nicely into the "Vial curve", they improve the crucial early-game more than Goon. Goon is only really effective when Warchief is out, which is usually in the mid- to lategame.


@Hooligan: to answer IBA's question - there are 3 artifacts that don't kill your creatures but are still relevant: Aether Vial, Pithing Needle and Chalice of the Void. Those would be good targets for Hooligan if you choose to run it.
However, there is another reason against running Hooligan: it forces you into the green splash. I really like the stability of the monored-manabase, and if I would splash a color, it would be white, not green. Coupled with the Warchief-nombo, these are enough reasons not to run Hooligan. In playtesting, Hooligan was often useless; there was also the problem that opponents playing Wasteland can cut your green mana off.


@nickrit: I like to think of myself as someone who has a fairly good grasp of Goblins, having played it for more than a year in Legacy and Vintage since the FCG days. Playtesting has shown that in the current metagame, Sharpshooter is not very effective: Werebear can't be killed, Rifter doesn't care, Zoo has has huge creatures and Sharpshooter gets killed instantly in the mirror most of the time. It's amazing against Elves and other random decks, though.
Tinkerer has been more useful, but was too slow sometimes. I find that dedicated artifact hate from the sideboard is a better plan than packing suboptimal Goblins game 1.


VialGoblins need innovation to stay competitive, and I think Mogg Flunkies may be a step in that direction. I urge everyone to give the Flunkies a shot.
(If anyone playing since Rath-cycle can remember, Flunkies even used to be run in Tempest-era Sligh with some success)

kicks_422
05-09-2006, 08:15 PM
Just a thought... Instead of adding a few big beaters, why not make all your Goblins bigger?... I run 4 Goblin King main... They've proven to be effective when they're out, especially in multiples... Granted, Flunkies fit better in the Vial curve and 2 Kings are needed to survive `Clasm, making eveything else big deals the crucial last points of damage... And the mountainwalk is an occasional boon...

Shriekmaw
05-09-2006, 10:33 PM
If you don't want to run Goblin Sharpshooter in the main, I would at least sideboard one. Goblin King sounds like a solid replacement for sharpshooter in the main deck, and maybe possibly adding in some goblin sledders to make some of your goblins live through a pyroclasm.

I definetely think we need an updated decklist somewhere to see where we are and what the best strategy is in the current Legacy Metagame.

Sims
05-10-2006, 10:19 AM
@Hooligan: to answer IBA's question - there are 3 artifacts that don't kill your creatures but are still relevant: Aether Vial, Pithing Needle and Chalice of the Void. Those would be good targets for Hooligan if you choose to run it.
However, there is another reason against running Hooligan: it forces you into the green splash. I really like the stability of the monored-manabase, and if I would splash a color, it would be white, not green. Coupled with the Warchief-nombo, these are enough reasons not to run Hooligan. In playtesting, Hooligan was often useless; there was also the problem that opponents playing Wasteland can cut your green mana off.


Why the hate on the Green splash as opposed to the White one? Is Armageddon that crucial to a matchup that, even with it, is still a bad matchup for you?

Marco
05-10-2006, 10:59 AM
Okay, here is your discussion:

A.) It's a fraile 1/1 for 2.
B.) It will require a turn to become unsick, aside from e.o.t Vial, so it's an easy target.
C.) It's not a Goblin and it's ability, for how slow it is, is not enough to make up for replacing Goblins from the deck with it.
D.) Ringleader is strictly superior.

A) & B) Isn't it better for you that they remove your Bloodline Shaman rather than your Goblin Lackey, Goblin Piledriver, or Goblin Warchief? I don't think good players would remove Bloodline Shaman right away.
C) Its ability is no slower than Dark Confidant's, which is seeing play in Sligh.
D) Of course it is. Bloodline Shaman is to be used in addition to Goblin Ringleader for even more card advantage.

Nightmare
05-10-2006, 11:13 AM
A) & B) Isn't it better for you that they remove your Bloodline Shaman rather than your Goblin Lackey, Goblin Piledriver, or Goblin Warchief? I don't think good players would remove Bloodline Shaman right away.
C) Its ability is no slower than Dark Confidant's, which is seeing play in Sligh.
D) Of course it is. Bloodline Shaman is to be used in addition to Goblin Ringleader for even more card advantage.The argument for A&B is a poor one. You say that you want them to remove it instead of something good, then follow it by saying no good player would do that. Even if they did, which they won't, then this could be any bad Goblin, which would at least have synergy with the deck.
For C, this deck isn't Sligh. Its Goblins. This is an important difference. If you want to insert a card into the deck, the first question is "Is this card a Goblin?" in Bloodline's case, the answer is No. Next, you have to ask "Is its effect strong enough to forgo playing other Goblins and worth its dissynergy?" Again, I feel the answer is No.
To D, Shaman will sometimes give you card advantage, it's true. However, the additional advantage is not worth it, when Goblins already has the strongest card advantage engine in the format. It doesn't add anything to the deck which the deck can't already do, and usually better.

PTBNL
05-10-2006, 07:08 PM
@Goblin Goon: while Goon is a big fat beater, it costs twice as much as Mogg Flunkies. Coupled with the fact that Flunkies fit nicely into the "Vial curve", they improve the crucial early-game more than Goon. Goon is only really effective when Warchief is out, which is usually in the mid- to lategame.


@Hooligan: to answer IBA's question - there are 3 artifacts that don't kill your creatures but are still relevant: Aether Vial, Pithing Needle and Chalice of the Void. Those would be good targets for Hooligan if you choose to run it.
However, there is another reason against running Hooligan: it forces you into the green splash. I really like the stability of the monored-manabase, and if I would splash a color, it would be white, not green. Coupled with the Warchief-nombo, these are enough reasons not to run Hooligan. In playtesting, Hooligan was often useless; there was also the problem that opponents playing Wasteland can cut your green mana off.


@nickrit: I like to think of myself as someone who has a fairly good grasp of Goblins, having played it for more than a year in Legacy and Vintage since the FCG days. Playtesting has shown that in the current metagame, Sharpshooter is not very effective: Werebear can't be killed, Rifter doesn't care, Zoo has has huge creatures and Sharpshooter gets killed instantly in the mirror most of the time. It's amazing against Elves and other random decks, though.
Tinkerer has been more useful, but was too slow sometimes. I find that dedicated artifact hate from the sideboard is a better plan than packing suboptimal Goblins game 1.


VialGoblins need innovation to stay competitive, and I think Mogg Flunkies may be a step in that direction. I urge everyone to give the Flunkies a shot.
(If anyone playing since Rath-cycle can remember, Flunkies even used to be run in Tempest-era Sligh with some success)

I used to run 4x Flunkies and I think they're solid, but I advocate Hooligans because alot of decks in the current meta maindeck some problem artifacts for us. Cursed Scroll in BW Confidant, Pithing Needle in Threshold, Jitte and SoFI in Angel Stompy, Aether Vial in Goblins, etc. Removing these artifacts (and netting card advantage) can go alot further than Flunkie's 3/3. And Hooligans are not useless when Warchief is out or if our opponent cuts off our green mana - they're still a 2/1 Goblin for 1R without the attack/block condition. That Flunkie drawback might not be a big deal but it comes up. For example, top deck mode after a wrath effect or early beatdown when Lackey gets plowed and Warchief gets countered.

I'm OK with running nonbasics as most of the successful Goblin decks use 8 nonbasics (Wasteland and Port) and seem to manage.

BTW I included both Hooligan and Tinkerer in my list because there are times when you want one over the other. When Warchief is out, Tinkerer is obviously better. When an active Jitte is out, Hooligan is better.

Bongo
05-11-2006, 02:35 PM
Why the hate on the Green splash as opposed to the White one? Is Armageddon that crucial to a matchup that, even with it, is still a bad matchup for you?

No, but Swords in the board is something Green doesn't have. If you only splash for Disenchant, feel free to go with Green.



Hooligans are not useless when Warchief is out or if our opponent cuts off our green mana - they're still a 2/1 Goblin for 1R without the attack/block condition. That Flunkie drawback might not be a big deal but it comes up.

That Hooligan drawback might not be a big deal but it comes up, too. Flunkies at least have positive synergy with Warchief instead of a negative one. Hooligan is just weak without its ability, 2/1 for two mana doesn't cut it in Legacy.

The big advantage of Flunkies over any other options is its 3/3 frame, which is important in bad matchups like UGR Gro (Flunkies survive Magma Jet and FireIce), Rifter (single activation of Lightning Rift) and to a lesser extent Deadguy (surviving Scroll) and Zoo (trading with the bigger creatures). Note that most of these decks are also very light on artifacts. Pyroclasm, Engineered Plague and other hate also loses some of its effectiveness.


I think the inclusion of Hooligan is a metagame-question. If your meta contains a lot of equipment and other artifacts, I would also run Hooligan. If not, Flunkies are certainly better.


Side note: Kiki Jiki also minimize the drawback of Flunkies. The fact that you can attack with two Flunkies is also important.

Lego
05-12-2006, 01:59 PM
Hooligan is just weak without its ability, 2/1 for two mana doesn't cut it in Legacy.

If Hooligan is being played without his CIP ability, it's almost always because you have a Warchief in play, in which case he's a 2/1 for R.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
05-12-2006, 02:41 PM
I think it's extremely logical and fair to say that in a choice between a card that's better with Warchief, and one that's better without, you should almost always choose the one without. Maybe you guys play the deck differently, but it's incredibly rare for me to lose a game where I get to keep active Warchief.

Bongo
05-12-2006, 04:59 PM
If Hooligan is being played without his CIP ability, it's almost always because you have a Warchief in play, in which case he's a 2/1 for R.

In testing, the 2/1 for two-scenario came up enough times. There was no artifact on the board, and either I didn't draw Warchief or Warchief was killed instantly.



I think it's extremely logical and fair to say that in a choice between a card that's better with Warchief, and one that's better without, you should almost always choose the one without.

True, but the thing is, Flunkies just need another creature, it doesn't have to be Warchief.

Like I said, I can understand the inclusion of Hooligan if your metas are all artifact-infested. But if you're mostly playing against Rifter, Solidarity, Goblins and Zoo, I would seriously consider giving Flunkies a shot.

This is not meant offensive, but has anyone else actually tested Flunkies?

Bane of the Living
05-12-2006, 05:12 PM
I played them in Extended for quite awhile. They were effective for the most part. In this format I have trouble fitting in the old school gobs with one ofs like Kiki, and Tinkerer. I dont really know how Id make room for Flunkies now. I dont really feel safe taking Sharpshooter or even Pyromancer out of my build.

I do see his strengths.

Bongo
05-23-2006, 09:05 AM
What better way to revitalize this discussion than with a controversy?


Sideboard:

3 Naturalize
2 Patron of the Akki
---
2 Tin-Street Hooligan
2 Siege Gang Commander
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Fire Marshal
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Goblin Tinkerer


Flame on.

Shriekmaw
05-23-2006, 12:21 PM
I don't believe Mogg Flunkies is the answer for decks with bigger creatures than yours. If you are really concerned with Grow and Zoo, then I would probably run Goblin Burrows, which seems like a bette solution to me. I believe the standard build of vial goblins to be the best with 3 siege-gang commander, 1 kiki-jiki mirror breaker, 1 prospecter, 1 sharpshooter, 1 tinkerer.

What would you cut anyways for flunkies? I can't find one card that I would like to be without in Vial Goblins as the build is pretty optimal right now.

Thoughts?

Amon Amarth
05-23-2006, 03:43 PM
What better way to revitalize this discussion than with a controversy?


Sideboard:

3 Naturalize
2 Patron of the Akki
---
2 Tin-Street Hooligan
2 Siege Gang Commander
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Fire Marshal
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Goblin Tinkerer


Flame on.

If you are playing Green your best bet is to play Tranquil Domain to deal with enchantments, and cards like Hooligan/Tinkerer to fill out your artifact hate.

MattH
05-23-2006, 05:21 PM
What better way to revitalize this discussion than with a controversy?


Sideboard:

3 Naturalize
2 Patron of the Akki
---
2 Tin-Street Hooligan
2 Siege Gang Commander
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Fire Marshal
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Goblin Tinkerer

Flame on.
So, you've given up all hope of beating combo?

SillyMetalGAT
05-24-2006, 12:30 PM
Goblin Warchief makes all your Goblins cost 1 less, making Tin-Street unusable. Warchief > Tin-Street Hooligan. So, in short, GG Hooligan.

Rastadon
05-24-2006, 04:06 PM
If you're expecting artifacts then just keep the warchiefs in your hand.

Was there anything wrong with Goblin Vandal in the first place?

SillyMetalGAT
05-24-2006, 04:22 PM
Your going to choose Tin-Street Hooligan over Goblin Warchief? Do you know how to play Goblins?

TheInfamousBearAssassin
05-24-2006, 11:25 PM
Goblin Warchief makes all your Goblins cost 1 less, making Tin-Street unusable. Warchief > Tin-Street Hooligan. So, in short, GG Hooligan.



2/1 Haste for R? What a retardedly awful piece of crap.

I suppose it'll matter when Ensnaring Bridge becomes all the rage?

Ridiculous Hat
05-24-2006, 11:49 PM
2/1 Haste for R? What a retardedly awful piece of crap.

I suppose it'll matter when Ensnaring Bridge becomes all the rage?If you need to blow up artifacts, I don't think you want to draw an efficient creature. Because it doesn't blow up artifacts.

I mean, I don't know what artifacts you want to blow up in this format. But if there are any bad enough to warrant running artifact destruction in the board past the one tinkerer in the maindeck, then you need to run something that can actually kill artifacts.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
05-25-2006, 04:34 AM
If you need to blow up artifacts, I don't think you want to draw an efficient creature. Because it doesn't blow up artifacts.

I mean, I don't know what artifacts you want to blow up in this format. But if there are any bad enough to warrant running artifact destruction in the board past the one tinkerer in the maindeck, then you need to run something that can actually kill artifacts.



This is entirely the fucking point I've made, I dunno, five or six fucking times in this thread. Goblins cares about artifacts at all in a handful of situations;

1) It's killing your guys. This is numero uno. Ensnaring Bridge was mentioned because it's the only fucking artifact that can do anything you care about that isn't busy killing your guys. Tinkerer sucks against active Jitte, because Warchief is dead by then and Tinkerer is next. Tinkerer sucks agianst Sword of Fire and Ice, because Warchief is dead by then and Tinkerer is next. Tinkerer sucks against Cursed Scroll, because... you get the fucking point. If Warchief is alive and well, there's a 99% chance that you don't fucking care what artifacts your opponent has.

2) Much less relevant, but if it's free random tempo gain, like against Raffinity or a deck that plays Talismans for some crazy reason. In this case, Tin-Street becomes a mini Avalanche Riders sans the Echo, whereas Tinkerer needs a turn to untap and eats it to Signets/Cranial Plating.

SillyMetalGAT
05-25-2006, 10:04 AM
Umm..... sorry IBA, maybe YOU dont play against Stax on a normal basis, but considering almost that ENTIRE deck is Artifacts give or take 12 cards + land, I think Artifact hate may be good. On your other point, why the fuck would you EVER side out other goblins to put in Tin-Street just so he's an EFFICIENT beater? a 2/1 for R as opposed to....... Goblin Piledriver? Which would you rather have?

Ridiculous Hat
05-25-2006, 02:16 PM
This is entirely the fucking point I've made, I dunno, five or six fucking times in this thread. Goblins cares about artifacts at all in a handful of situations;

1) It's killing your guys. This is numero uno. Ensnaring Bridge was mentioned because it's the only fucking artifact that can do anything you care about that isn't busy killing your guys. Tinkerer sucks against active Jitte, because Warchief is dead by then and Tinkerer is next. Tinkerer sucks agianst Sword of Fire and Ice, because Warchief is dead by then and Tinkerer is next. Tinkerer sucks against Cursed Scroll, because... you get the fucking point. If Warchief is alive and well, there's a 99% chance that you don't fucking care what artifacts your opponent has.

2) Much less relevant, but if it's free random tempo gain, like against Raffinity or a deck that plays Talismans for some crazy reason. In this case, Tin-Street becomes a mini Avalanche Riders sans the Echo, whereas Tinkerer needs a turn to untap and eats it to Signets/Cranial Plating.That's a fair point-- against Affinity it is quite good, but otherwise I think I'd be inclined to think that you want more dedicated artifact destruction, ie Shattering Spree/Rack and Ruin. Jitte, SoFI and Scroll are probably better dealt with by Pithing Needle, because I don't think there are any decks around that run more than one of those cards. Are there? Hell, if there aren't other artifacts that you care about, just board Naturalizes and Needles for randomness.

@gat: I don't think tin-street is enough against Stax if the entire deck is artifacts.

Tao
05-25-2006, 02:48 PM
Jitte, SoFI and Scroll are probably better dealt with by Pithing Needle, because I don't think there are any decks around that run more than one of those cards. Are there? Hell, if there aren't other artifacts that you care about, just board Naturalizes and Needles for randomness.

I got the most terrible flaming for suggesting Caller of the Claw. I still would play him, but that's not my point. I got flamed because I broke the 1st Goblin Commandment by not using cards with the subtype "Goblin" as sideboard cards.

While this this a stupid argument in general it is absolutely true in this case. When they print an Enchantment destroying Goblin that manages to kill Humility I would play this instead of Naturalize. It has great advantages to draw a Hooligan with a Ringleader instead of drawing a Needle with it. And in case of the Artifacts IBA mentioned: it is great to be able to tutor for your solution with a Matron, because Jitte, SoFaI, Scroll and Iso Scepter just eat all advantage Ringleader's are able to produce. Furthermore it is a creature with a 2/1 body which is absolutely fair.

Ridiculous Hat
05-25-2006, 03:04 PM
I got the most terrible flaming for suggesting Caller of the Claw. I still would play him, but that's not my point. I got flamed because I broke the 1st Goblin Commandment by not using cards with the subtype "Goblin" as sideboard cards.

While this this a stupid argument in general it is absolutely true in this case. When they print an Enchantment destroying Goblin that manages to kill Humility I would play this instead of Naturalize. It has great advantages to draw a Hooligan with a Ringleader instead of drawing a Needle with it. And in case of the Artifacts IBA mentioned: it is great to be able to tutor for your solution with a Matron, because Jitte, SoFaI, Scroll and Iso Scepter just eat all advantage Ringleader's are able to produce. Furthermore it is a creature with a 2/1 body which is absolutely fair.Well the one maindeck Goblin who kills stuff goes without saying. I'm not sure if Tinkerer or Tin-Street is right, but Tin-Street probably is from the points that have been made recently. I just think that it's probably better to board Needles for the problem cards that wreck you and/or Sprees for all the decks that have infinite artifacts, as tin-street probably isn't enough.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
05-25-2006, 03:16 PM
Umm..... sorry IBA, maybe YOU dont play against Stax on a normal basis, but considering almost that ENTIRE deck is Artifacts give or take 12 cards + land, I think Artifact hate may be good. On your other point, why the fuck would you EVER side out other goblins to put in Tin-Street just so he's an EFFICIENT beater? a 2/1 for R as opposed to....... Goblin Piledriver? Which would you rather have?


Here's an idea. Next time I type something, read it. Firstly, Tin-Street isn't a pure sideboard option; he's extremely maindeckable. Secondly, you side in Tin-Street because you expect problematic situation to arise in which Warchief would get killed anyway. If they don't arise, then you shrug and win anyway. This is really easy. If they don't get an active Jitte or SoFI, Angel Stompy or White Weenie or whatever is going to lose, even if you're running Wastes/Port.

Now, if you want dedicated sideboard hate, there's options that wreck artifact heavy decks, sure. The main point is that md Hooligan > md Tinkerer. I'd run Hooligan as a 2x anytime I was running Green. It would also make me free to run Tranquil Domain over Naturalize, which is a much better card against what ails you.

Tao
05-25-2006, 03:25 PM
Well the one maindeck Goblin who kills stuff goes without saying. I'm not sure if Tinkerer or Tin-Street is right, but Tin-Street probably is from the points that have been made recently. I just think that it's probably better to board Needles for the problem cards that wreck you and/or Sprees for all the decks that have infinite artifacts, as tin-street probably isn't enough.

The advantage of Spree are against decks that use multiple artifacts, like Staxx variants or Affinity and against deck, that protect their key arifact with countermagic, I can only thnk of some decks using Isochron Scepter here. So cards like Meltdown and Spree are probably only good in known Artifact Metas.

Needle is good because of being really flexible. It can shut down these problem Artifacts (sucks against SoFaI) as well as Survival, Troll Ascetic, CoP/RoP:Red or Salvagers. So you will never be wrong with Needles.

The advantage of Hooligan is just his awesomeness. If your Goblin opponent plays 2 Jitten, you wouldn't want to board in Shattering Sprees or Needles, but Hooligans are absolutely okay. He can eat Vials OR just be another Goblin for Ringleader. The same is true against any deck that uses a little number of Artifacts or if you are unsure if your opponent uses them.

My Name Is Scott
05-25-2006, 03:45 PM
Goblin Warchief makes all your Goblins cost 1 less, making Tin-Street unusable. Warchief > Tin-Street Hooligan. So, in short, GG Hooligan.
later...

Umm..... sorry IBA, maybe YOU dont play against Stax on a normal basis, but considering almost that ENTIRE deck is Artifacts give or take 12 cards + land, I think Artifact hate may be good. ?
Next time you want to completely denounce a good card, make sure to mention that what you're saying is limited to your metagame only.

I've never played goblins against staxx, but they still play swords and wrath.You've got much less of a chance of having a tinkerer in hand and a warchief on the board than you do of having a tin-street in hand with no warchief on the board.

calosso
05-25-2006, 04:16 PM
I have never had much trouble against stax since they couldn't look you down fast enough. All the artifacts you have trouble with can be dealt with by using pithing needle.

Tinkereer Vs Hooligan

It all really depends if you are willing to splash the second color. If not stay with Tinkereer.

Bongo
05-26-2006, 10:36 AM
It's nice to see some discussion here, albeit it was centered more around Hooligan than my sideboard.


First, about the Flunkies/Hooligan debate: In testing, the drawback of Flunkies came up a little bit too often. Most decks nowadays can control which creatures stay in play, leading to useless Flunkies.
However, Flunkies were amazing once I got two copies out. That necessitates 4 Flunkies in the deck, and I don't think it's worth cutting SGC from the deck to make space.
The need for some 2cc Goblins still remain, and I think a combination of Tinkerer/Hooligan is the way to go.


Now, the sideboard: As Matt pointed out, I can't deal with combo anymore. I chose to do this for various reasons. If combo is prevalent in your meta, I think Goblins is the wrong choice anyway, I would rather run Gro or Ale. I also had trouble fitting in non-Goblin sideboard cards, so much that it seemed that the deck got WEAKER than pre-board. Boarding a Goblin for a Goblin is a lot better and doesn't weaken the deck.

The only non-Goblin cards are the Tranquil Domains (thanks Amon) and Patrons. Tranquil Domain is needed to dodge hate and is something Goblins can't provide.


What do you think about this Goblin-for-Goblin approach in a non-combo meta?

Lego
05-26-2006, 09:42 PM
This is really easy. If they don't get an active Jitte or SoFI, Angel Stompy or White Weenie or whatever is going to lose, even if you're running Wastes/Port.

I have agreed with most of what you have said in the Tinkerer/Hooligan debate, but I can't agree with this. While Jitte/SoFI are huge problems in the AS matchup, they will win many, many without them. Mother of Runes, Silver Knight, and Exalted Angel give you fits, while an active Parallax Wave often spells game. I do not debate that maindeck Hooligan is money in this matchup, as in many others, but I think that other things need to come in as well. Pithing Needle can help to take care of the equipment, Parallax Wave, and even Mom at times, so is a great inclusion. It is stellar in many other instances as well.

SillyMetalGAT
05-26-2006, 10:09 PM
Next time you want to completely denounce a good card, make sure to mention that what you're saying is limited to your metagame only.

I've never played goblins against staxx, but they still play swords and wrath.You've got much less of a chance of having a tinkerer in hand and a warchief on the board than you do of having a tin-street in hand with no warchief on the board.

Stax doesnt play swords, but I get your point. I didnt mean that I was only talking about Stax. A lot of decks out there side in Needles against Goblins, so needle hate isnt always a bad option either.

Bongo
05-29-2006, 07:18 PM
4 Aether Vial

4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-gang Commander
2 Kiki Jiki
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Tinkerer

6 Mountain
2 Taiga
2 Skarrg, Rage Pits
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland


Sideboard:

4 Tranquil Domain
4 Tormods Crypt
2 Patron of the Akki
---
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Tinkerer
---
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin King


This is my current version. I dropped Flunkies and the number of Goblins in the board was reduced to five. I felt that Tranquil Domain and Tormods Crypt were too important not to include, as they provide crucial effects Goblins can't provide.

I took an almost identical version to a tournament win this weekend.

The only choice I wasn't entirely sure were the pumplands. What is better: Skarrg or Burrows?

TheInfamousBearAssassin
05-29-2006, 08:50 PM
Against Threshold and Zoo, Burrows is better, while Skarg is better against WhiteWeenie/Angel Stompy variants. So in most metas, Burrows is definitely superior, although I can't really advocate a middle-of-the-road strategy like that. I think I'd rather either take the mana-denial route or the pump-land route to it's fullest, as they have little synergy, and 2x Burrows isn't going to be reliable, whereas just Wasteland will not be enough all that often to destablize someone's mana plans, and there's a lack of Power non basics that are worth destroying by themselves such as existed in the old format, in Workshop, Bazaar, and Landstill's manlands.



I have agreed with most of what you have said in the Tinkerer/Hooligan debate, but I can't agree with this. While Jitte/SoFI are huge problems in the AS matchup, they will win many, many without them. Mother of Runes, Silver Knight, and Exalted Angel give you fits, while an active Parallax Wave often spells game. I do not debate that maindeck Hooligan is money in this matchup, as in many others, but I think that other things need to come in as well. Pithing Needle can help to take care of the equipment, Parallax Wave, and even Mom at times, so is a great inclusion. It is stellar in many other instances as well.


In our testing, Angel Stompy simply doesn't have enough pressure or card draw to put up a reliable defense. Goblins has more than enough speed and card advantage to build up a lethal army, sometimes even in the face of Jitte/SoFI, that can attack for 20 out of nowhere, which a single Silver Knight isn't enough to prevent. The inability of Shadow creatures to block is another huge problem here. Goblins might lose this matchup with an incompetent pilot, but with a player with a little more skill and patience, it's mostly favorable despite it's appearance of being pre-boarded in AS's favor.

Bongo
05-30-2006, 07:08 PM
I think I'd rather either take the mana-denial route or the pump-land route to it's fullest, as they have little synergy, and 2x Burrows isn't going to be reliable

I had the same thoughts, but wanted to try out Skarrg nevertheless. Surprisingly, it came up at the right moments in the tournament, but I can understand your reasoning. I'm testing 1 Mountain and 1 Taiga in place of 2 Skarrg.

This statement may draw some fire, but I was unsatisfied with Ports in Goblins. They increased the mulligan ratio and tied up precious mana that I wanted to use on casting Goblins. Ports were only really good when it followed 1st turn Vial or Lackey, but I had a good chance of winning the game regardless of Port in that instance anyway.


Unlike the old format, I don't use Wasteland as a foil to Power-lands anymore. Wasteland is more of a "tempo-gainer" than anything else. There are still a lot of decks that lose to 1st turn Vial/Lackey, 2nd turn Wasteland that I feel it's a worthy inclusion, even without Port.


One key move has been the relegation of Sharpshooter to the sideboard. Quite simply, Sharpshooter has only been good in the mirror and in a selected few matchups. Otherwise, it was often a dead draw, so I moved it to the sideboard in favor of the two artifact-destroying Goblins, which have proven to be very effective.

frogboy
05-31-2006, 12:45 AM
Port is really more of a Strip Mine that has an activation cost of 1, Tap that you use on people who might get to four mana, two of it white on their main phase if you do not use it during their upkeep.

MattH
05-31-2006, 11:08 AM
The way I use Wasteland stems from the same reason I always, always sac the Fanatic to kill the BoP: the opponent had plans for that mana, plans that could do you in. Stop the mana, stop those plans. Make him keep replaying turn one while you're playing turn three or four or five.

Port is actually kind of key for this. Since there are no power lands, you need a certain critical mass of mana-denying cards for them to be worth including at all (hence splitting between Wastes and Skarrg is bad). Four Wastes isn't enough, so you have to go to something else. Port does bother me enough to think about changing one of them into a mountain, but I wouldn't go to 2 or less without just dropping the mana denial subtheme altogether.

TheInfamousBearAssassin
05-31-2006, 12:22 PM
Port is really more of a Strip Mine that has an activation cost of 1, Tap that you use on people who might get to four mana, two of it white on their main phase if you do not use it during their upkeep.


You mean it's a Strip Mine that has an upkeep of 1.

Phantom
05-31-2006, 01:44 PM
Since you're on the topic, I was wondering about how a mainboard land destruction spell (Pillage most likely) would affect the deck? I am well aware of the danger of thinning out the number of Goblins, but it does have some benifits:

1) With the mana disruption in the double digits (might have to cut a port or two) you could do things like completely shut Thresh off of red, or Rifter off of WW.

2) Much like Wasteland it buys you another turn 3, which is nice considering how many turn 4 bombs (Humility, Wrath, Mutilate) there are, while upping your Vial count. It ties up more mana than Waste, but doesn't set you back a land drop.

3) Big help against Solidarity and any deck running basics.

4) Blows needles set on Vial (or wasteland). Also kills other problem artifacts like equipment.

Not sure if this is enough to warrant inclusion (I know it can be a big tempo hiccup), just was wondering what people thought of it.

Bongo
05-31-2006, 04:33 PM
Port does bother me enough to think about changing one of them into a mountain, but I wouldn't go to 2 or less without just dropping the mana denial subtheme altogether.

How often has Port affected your mulligan decisions?

I don't like Port for the following reasons:

1) more mulligans
2) sometimes doesn't affect opponent at all because they float the mana and cast instants
3) instead of a Time Walk for me, Port was sometimes a Time Walk for my opponent, e.g. I hadn't enough red mana to cast another Goblin which would have killed the opponent on the next turn



You mean it's a Strip Mine that has an upkeep of 1.

It's even worse than a Strip Mine with upkeep when your opponent plays with instants.


What's the optimal landbase for Goblins?

Wasteland/Port?
Burrows/Port?
Ancient Tomb/Chrome Mox?

Shriekmaw
06-29-2006, 12:41 PM
Since you're on the topic, I was wondering about how a mainboard land destruction spell (Pillage most likely) would affect the deck? I am well aware of the danger of thinning out the number of Goblins, but it does have some benifits:


I think you're missing the point of Vial Goblins if you suggesting adding land destuction cards in the deck. It suppose to be an aggro deck and by adding cards that don't help the main principle of the deck, seems like a waste of time to me. I would rather talk about creatures or maybe color variations of the deck to help improve it.

I've noticed especially around my area, that Vial Goblins has almost completely died because of all the hate that has to be brought in order to deal with it effectively. It is an resilent deck, but when you start seeing engineered plagues all the time, I kind of wonder if its still considered a tier 1 deck anymore.

Will it continue to see top 8 appearances, or will players just play other decks instead?

AnwarA101
06-29-2006, 01:04 PM
I've noticed especially around my area, that Vial Goblins has almost completely died because of all the hate that has to be brought in order to deal with it effectively. It is an resilent deck, but when you start seeing engineered plagues all the time, I kind of wonder if its still considered a tier 1 deck anymore.

Will it continue to see top 8 appearances, or will players just play other decks instead?

I think Goblins is definitely losing steam in the current metagame. Kadilak's Dual Land Draft was the first tournament for it not to make Top 8 in the past year. I think this tournament will be indicative of the future where Goblins while still popular just isn't strong enough to consistently make Top8.

kabal
06-30-2006, 11:46 PM
I think Goblins is definitely losing steam in the current metagame. Kadilak's Dual Land Draft was the first tournament for it not to make Top 8 in the past year. I think this tournament will be indicative of the future where Goblins while still popular just isn't strong enough to consistently make Top8.

[report] Vial Goblins (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3678)

TheInfamousBearAssassin
07-01-2006, 01:43 AM
Wasteland/Port?
Burrows/Port?
Ancient Tomb/Chrome Mox?

Burrows/Skarg.

AnwarA101
07-02-2006, 12:42 PM
[report] Vial Goblins (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3678)

Thanks for writing the report, but with all due respect winning a 7 person tournament doesn't change the fact that Goblins is not very strong in the metagame. I'm not saying Goblins can't win or can't make Top 8 but that it is less likely than it use to be. As a way of comparison we had a 11-12 person tournament in Northern Virginia and the Top 4 was

2 RGSA (with black splash)
1 Threshold
1 U/B Landstill

I beat my Goblin opponent with Threshold. Goblins has not been doing well in our metagame for quite awhile.

calosso
07-02-2006, 02:12 PM
Thanks for writing the report, but with all due respect winning a 7 person tournament doesn't change the fact that Goblins is not very strong in the metagame. I'm not saying Goblins can't win or can't make Top 8 but that it is less likely than it use to be. As a way of comparison we had a 11-12 person tournament in Northern Virginia and the Top 4 was

2 RGSA (with black splash)
1 Threshold
1 U/B Landstill

I beat my Goblin opponent with Threshold. Goblins has not been doing well in our metagame for quite awhile.

I was the goblin player that lost to goblins and in my defense I was 5th with the same record as 3rd and 4th.

TorpidNinja
07-04-2006, 04:56 PM
The red pitch card from Coldsnap:

Fury of the Horde RR5
Sorcery
You may remove two red cards in your hand from teh game rather than pay Fury of the Horde's mana cost.
Untap all creatures that attacked this turn. After this main phase, there is an additional combat phase followed by an additional main phase.
Card# 081

Would Goblin players feel comfortable with using something like this in the early game or does the risk of a random counter eliminate it from the realm of usefulness? Does a Goblin player have enough cards late from in general from Ringleaders or is that game already in hand by that point?

MattH
07-05-2006, 01:14 PM
Heh, that card would let you double the bonus on Piledriver, and make lackey->warchief/ringleader not waste their haste.

SpatulaOfTheAges
07-05-2006, 02:23 PM
Could be sb against combo, to help the race? But it getting BEBed would suck something fierce.

quicksilver
07-05-2006, 02:37 PM
Getting remanded would also suck pretty hard too.

Phantom
07-12-2006, 11:37 AM
So, this is the list that won day 2:

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Platuea
4 Mountains
4 Rishadan Port
2 Wasteland
4 Aether Vial
3 Disenchant
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-gang Commander

SB
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Leave No Trace
1 Shattering Spree


The 2nd place Goblins apparently ran maindeck Jitte and had 4xPyrostatic Pillar and 4xREB in the board for Solidarity. He also splashed green for maindeck hooligan.

Some interesting stuff there.

kicks_422
07-13-2006, 07:08 AM
Question: What is Smart Goblins? I've been reading stuff about it, apparently it's a batter Goblin deck in the metagame... What is it?... :tongue:

Eldariel
07-13-2006, 07:22 AM
We'll find out soon enough. It had a white splash, that I know, but Anusien only just got the lists. Let's just wait for 'em to get posted. Perhaps it was created by Tom Smart (the fellow who Top 8d at Philly with Vial Gobs too). His Philly list was (from MTG.com):

3 Wasteland
4 Plateau
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
8 Mountain

1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Aether Vial
3 Swords to Plowshares

SB:
1 Ravages of War
3 Armageddon
2 Disenchant
2 Pithing Needle
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyrotechnics

quicksilver
07-13-2006, 09:43 AM
Yes, I do beleive Smart goblin's is named after Tom smarts build. It is just goblins with the white splash. But don't be fooled by the name, just because it is called Smart Goblins, doesn't necissarily mean it is any smarter or better, it's just the name.

calosso
07-13-2006, 07:36 PM
We'll find out soon enough. It had a white splash, that I know, but Anusien only just got the lists. Let's just wait for 'em to get posted. Perhaps it was created by Tom Smart (the fellow who Top 8d at Philly with Vial Gobs too). His Philly list was (from MTG.com):

3 Wasteland
4 Plateau
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
8 Mountain

1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Aether Vial
3 Swords to Plowshares

SB:
1 Ravages of War
3 Armageddon
2 Disenchant
2 Pithing Needle
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyrotechnics


It's 3 pyrokensis not pyrotechnics.

The deck was named by Tom Smart who top 4ed with it and GP Philly.

powergamer1003
07-15-2006, 12:23 PM
I think Smart Goblins might be the way to go. It allows for quick removal, without sacrificing too much speed

Tacosnape
07-26-2006, 04:42 PM
Chalice seems way bizarre to me (Says the founder of Team Chalice Aggro). Does anyone know how it was used, what it was boarded in against, and what it was set to? Seems like a decent turn 2 play to follow an Aether Vial against Tide, or was it set to 2?

My first thought was also that it could put some serious hurt on decks packing Silver Knight/Jitte, but I can't fathom how Goblins would get a Chalice for 2 down before Knight/Jitte came online.

I was disappointed that nobody tried to abuse Engineered Explosives in the 2-color builds to get rid of Survival, Rift, Sil. Knight, Sol. Priest, Jitte, Shade, Confidant, etc. Maybe one day Double E will get its comeuppance.

Galroth
08-15-2006, 01:40 AM
I know the card Pillage has come up once before in this thread, but it was tossed aside fairly quickly. I think it really has merit though. The Goblin decks that have been placing in recent tourneys run full or near full sets of ports and wastes. From the reports I've been reading, this disruption element is part of what makes this deck so effective. Allowing gobbos to destroy the manabase of most decks, while cheating its own through lackey and vial. Also of note: most of these builds are splashing for a disenchant/naturalize effect.

Pillage has the advantage of letting the deck run a slightly more consistent mana base by not splashing a second color. 22x lands seems to be favoured with the white or green splash. This might allow dropping to 21x. Oh, and it destroys lands, which on top of waste and port can be devastating. I haven't done much testing yet, but thus far I'm pretty happy with 3x pillage. If I drop a land, I'll test out the 4th. Additionally Pillage takes care of most of gobbos problems outside of engineered plague, making it a decent substitute for disechant/naturalize.

The draw backs? (1) It doesn't take care of enchantments. (2) Running the mono-colored build disallows for some of the better sideboard cards like swords. (3) It fills the already overburdened 3cc slot that much more. This is probably my greatest concern over the card.

Again, in my meager testing I've liked the results, particularly against threshold. I think the card is worth a bit more thought. Opinions?

noobslayer
08-15-2006, 09:34 AM
Goblins would more likely run something like Crack the Earth/Raze instead. It's cheaper, and doesn't have a double mana requirment. That's another reason for goblins to splash white: Armageddon. It's already in a lot of builds, and even though it has a four cc, it only has one white in the cost, and is the most cost effective option available.

Eldariel
08-15-2006, 10:07 AM
I've been testing Chalice in Goblins a lot (yea, you could say I like the card a bit too much. Next thing you know, I'll be playing it in Solidarity and Threshold) and it's been great thus far. Against Iggy-pop and the like, Chalice at 1 can be very damaging, but Chalice at 0 on play even more so. Solidarity doesn't like Chalice at 1 and neither does Thres. The thing is, you play Lackey or Vial turn 1 and follow up with turn 2 Chalice for 1 so it doesn't hurt you at all really. It's won me a good bunch of games in testings. Best of all, it shuts down Solidarity's SB Hydroblasts. Really, it's been the best board-card I could hope for in the games I've tried it in.

Citrus-God
08-17-2006, 06:39 AM
Sounds like Chalices is the new "tempo" card at the moment, and everybody seems to love this more than Geddon' and Pillar. I havent tested it yet, but it sounds solid against Iggy and Solidarity.

Lego
08-17-2006, 04:44 PM
I was talking to Herbig about this, and the problem with Chalice over Pillar is that Pillar is the only card that Solidarity absolutely has to bounce before going off. They can technically go off with a Chalice in play, or a Sphere of Resistance or a Trinisphere or whatever else. They can even go off a little bit and then bounce it. But Pillar, especially in Goblins where you've already taken away a chunk of their life total by the time they need to go off, makes it impossible to go off without first bouncing it.

I'd still say that if you want to beat Solidarity, the answer is 4 Pillar, 4 REB.

AnwarA101
08-17-2006, 04:59 PM
I was talking to Herbig about this, and the problem with Chalice over Pillar is that Pillar is the only card that Solidarity absolutely has to bounce before going off. They can technically go off with a Chalice in play, or a Sphere of Resistance or a Trinisphere or whatever else. They can even go off a little bit and then bounce it. But Pillar, especially in Goblins where you've already taken away a chunk of their life total by the time they need to go off, makes it impossible to go off without first bouncing it.

I'd still say that if you want to beat Solidarity, the answer is 4 Pillar, 4 REB.

The problem is that Pillar and REB are pretty bad against Iggy Pop which is probably an even worse matchup than Solidarity. That's the problem with playing something narrow, is that it doesn't help you in other matchups you might run into.

Goblin Snowman
08-17-2006, 05:16 PM
The problem is that Pillar and REB are pretty bad against Iggy Pop which is probably an even worse matchup than Solidarity. That's the problem with playing something narrow, is that it doesn't help you in other matchups you might run into.

Pillar is usable against Iggy Pop, seeing as how you should have dealt them enough damage for Pillar to seal the deal. 2x Tendrills negates this, but it's narrow than Blessing. Beb isn't dead against them, but isn't that hot. The best Chailce you can hope for against them is @ 0 or 1, which while shutting down Dark Rit/LED doesn't hinder them that much if they have a copy of the other.

Togit460
08-17-2006, 10:00 PM
Lightning Bolt > STP.

Tao
08-18-2006, 03:58 AM
Lightning Bolt > STP.

I disagree. Swords are just a better card and the ability to shoot face instead of giving life will rarely matter in a deck using Piledriver. Swords are just so much better if you face Mystic Enforcer, Rumbling Slum, Werbears, Silver Knights or Exalted Angels.

Basically it is a Meta question between Hooligan and Swords:

- splashing G for the insane good Tin-Street Hooligan that can handle Jitte, SoFaI and Cursed Scroll and Naturalize / Tranquil Domain
- Splashing W for Swords against evil fat creatures and Disenchant
- Playing Mono for a more stable Manabase and totally losing to Plague

erdjinn
08-18-2006, 10:45 AM
I agree that the 3 choices are all possible and you should decide according to the metagame.
The MonoR version is stronger but has less answers to hate cards.
The White splash has StP but gives free Massacre to your opponent.
The Green splash has no StP but is still strong.

MonoB and Bx are always hot here, so I'd go with the green splash.

PS: I have tried a green splash with Rancor (mainly for Lackey and Piledriver, but it works on the other goblins also) main and Naturalize in the side.
I found Rancor only half useful, so I dropped it. I won a strange game with only Rancor and Siege-Gang Commander, but I saw too many Rancors with the Ringleader (probably bad luck).

Eldariel
08-18-2006, 11:34 AM
Worth noting that Green also makes it a better idea to include Pendelhaven which is absolutely nuts in this deck, especially with Lackeys, but overall with any 1/1s (and the deck has plenty of them).

dre4m
08-18-2006, 12:42 PM
Worth noting that Green also makes it a better idea to include Pendelhaven which is absolutely nuts in this deck, especially with Lackeys, but overall with any 1/1s (and the deck has plenty of them).

But Pendelhaven cannot be fetched, is worse than a blank card in multiples, produces only green mana, and needs a 1/1 that cannot be played with the Pendelhaven itself to be worthwhile. I'd rather have a Taiga. The white splash also offers you Armageddon and Ravages of War.

SuckerPunch
08-18-2006, 12:59 PM
Has anyone considered Serenity if you're going for the white splash.

It requires that you play it when you weren't able to draw/resolve a Vial, or after you got all you can out of Vial or in the midgame or so.

But it will take out all equipment, Engineered Plagues, Pithing Needle, Cursed Scroll, Chalice, Worship, creatures like War Beast, and autowins against stuff like Stax and Affinity. It's also a huge bomb versus Fairie Stompy, Landstill w/Humity, Rifter etc.

The only reason that other (white) decks don't MD it is because most every deck plays a ton of artifacts/enchantments of their own.

The M.E.T.H.O.D
08-25-2006, 12:50 PM
I still think its important to have a THREE MANA play (with warchief) like matron + sparksmith that can remove almost any creature in play to preserve the tempo of your game.

swishandamiss
08-27-2006, 06:06 PM
i think that RG goblins is much superior to rw, because it improves the soliditary matchup with gaea's blessings and gives you a (in my opinion) better tinkerer tin street hooligan. It also provides you with tranquil domain which is a solid car against Cop:red multiple plagues, moat ect.. This deck has proven it self multiple times at big events and proved itself for me yesterday

Goblin Snowman
08-27-2006, 09:28 PM
I wish to point out that White does offer Serenity, which, while being Disenchantable, does the same thing (hitting vial) and makes matchues like Stax/Affinity a bye. Have you ever been in a situation where your Warchief prevented you from using Tin Street? There has only been one time with me where that was relevant (Ensnaring Bridge with no hand) and I ended up losing.

Togit460
08-27-2006, 09:37 PM
while i haven't decided on colors yet, if you are truly worried about stax or affinity i hear that x4 shattering spree pretty much rolls them. mono-red goblins FTW lol. Still i'd go R/G just because it has soooo many more options. -peace, j.j.

Shriekmaw
09-05-2006, 06:20 PM
while i haven't decided on colors yet, if you are truly worried about stax or affinity i hear that x4 shattering spree pretty much rolls them. mono-red goblins FTW lol. Still i'd go R/G just because it has soooo many more options. -peace, j.j.


As an affinity player, there are a lot of cards that I am worried about. Shattering Spree is definetely not one of them. If you really wanted to board a card for artifacts, wouldn't meltdown make more sense?

If I do play goblins it would probably be with the white splash. I do think the green and the white are both good, it just depends on what cards you want in your sb.

Tacosnape
09-05-2006, 07:29 PM
Is there a particular reason splashing both green and white has been disqualified?

While this does open your manabase up to more than a bit of wasteland vulnerability, it offers a lot of interesting options.

1. You can run Swords to Plowshares, which gets rid of almost every creature Goblins fears.
2. You can run Tin-Street Hooligan, which gets rid of Umezawa's Jitte, among other incredibly annoying cards.
3. You can pack a board full of Engineered Explosives which will be capable of providing additional support against Umezawa's Jitte, Silver Knight, Nimble Mongoose, Pithing Needle, Engineered Plague, Sword of Fire and Ice, Survival of the Fittest, or what have you.

MasterBlaster
09-05-2006, 09:04 PM
@Tacosnape: I think 3 colors would be a bad idea as it not only opens you up more to Wasteland but it may also make the deck too controlling by adding STP and TSHooligan when it really wants to be playing game ending threats and beating down. But I don't have much experience playing Goblins so by all means test for yourself.

Tacosnape
09-05-2006, 10:15 PM
@Tacosnape: I think 3 colors would be a bad idea as it not only opens you up more to Wasteland but it may also make the deck too controlling by adding STP and TSHooligan when it really wants to be playing game ending threats and beating down. But I don't have much experience playing Goblins so by all means test for yourself.

You could be right. I'm messing around with it anyway, running 3 Swords to Plowshares main and 2 Tin-Street Hooligan, which puts me at 31 Goblins still, which is as many as Smart Goblins (Sacrificing Kiki-Jiki and the Sharpshooter for 2 Tin-Streets and one Gempalm for a second Siege-Gang Commander).

Wasteland is indeed somewhat of a whore, but I -think- it'll only be at its worst in mirror matchups or against decks that are more aggro than Goblins. As long as I'm the beatdown, I don't mind them taking a turn to nail my land, especially if I'm gaining Vial counters.

If anyone -was- to try 3 Swords and 2 Tin-Streets, how would you do your manabase? I'm not real certain what the correct number of basics is. I'm tempted to try 3 Plateau and 2 Taiga along with the 8 Fetchlands to match the 3 STP and 2 Tin-Street respectively, which would leave me five basic mountains. Thoughts?

Happy Gilmore
09-06-2006, 09:50 AM
I'm not sure you need to splash green at all for main deck artifact destruction. Goblin Tinkerer is probably going to be a bit better because you can run it as a one of and still destroy multiple Needles. Not to mention that with Hooligan you will not be able to destroy anything if you have a Warchief in play.

The main reason I see to run Green is Naturalize or Tranquil Domain (if you see enchantress in your meta). You could also run green for Skarg, cutting the wastelands completely and creating a way for you to trample through silver knights.

Canook
09-06-2006, 12:05 PM
Don't Silver Knights also have first strike? And the main reason why I see Hooligan as a good choice is because you don't need to have a warchief in play for it to be used. You kind of need to have warchief out for Tinkerer to be good because mainly, good decks, have a way to deal with it once it's in play.

Ewokslayer
09-06-2006, 12:11 PM
Don't Silver Knights also have first strike?
Skarg gives +1/+1 and trample. So warchief, Piledriver, and ringleader can all attack into silver knight without dying to first strike and then trample over.

Amon Amarth
09-07-2006, 06:29 PM
As an affinity player, there are a lot of cards that I am worried about. Shattering Spree is definetely not one of them. If you really wanted to board a card for artifacts, wouldn't meltdown make more sense?



You're joking right? Multiple 1 mana Vidicates are pretty scary. SS is game ending against Affinity. Meltdown is far too slow. Most of the time it makes a huge Frogmite or Enforcer you have to deal with. If you can support Shattering Spree, and Goblins can, that is the way to go against Stax/Affinity/Artifact.dec.

Tacosnape
09-07-2006, 07:01 PM
I'm not sure you need to splash green at all for main deck artifact destruction. Goblin Tinkerer is probably going to be a bit better because you can run it as a one of and still destroy multiple Needles.

Same old, same old. If my Warchief's alive, I don't care what artifacts hit the board unless it's something ridiculously random like Ensnaring Bridge. Furthermore, Tinkerer is completely useless without a chief, and is basically a throw-away to Umezawa's Jitte, which is one of the main reasons to have Hooligan. An unchecked Jitte wrecks Goblins and will ensure that Warchief isn't alive. Also, in the rare odd situation Warchief is alive and you don't need him to be, Gempalm Incinerator or Siege-Gang Commander takes care of that nicely. All Warchief does to T.S. Hooligan is turn him into a 2/1 Haste for one red, which isn't bad.

To me, maindeck artifact hate is a choice between Tin-Street Hooligan and nothing. (Though it's arguable that nothing is the superior choice.) I'd never ever spend the slot on something as awful as Tinkerer.

The real question is between Tin-Street Hooligan and Swords to Plowshares (Or both, or neither one.) So far I've enjoyed running both, and the only time I really regret running both is in Combo matchups, where I miss my third Siege-Gang Commander. It's really nice to have a fair chance against Silver Knight/Jitte/Sofi on game one though.

What do people think about boarding the fourth (or in my case, third and fourth) Siege-Gang Commanders? Lackey/Siege-Gang seemed to be an solid force against combo at TML.

(...Also, and this is -really- random and I can't see it being optimal, but I thought I'd mention it. I played against someone on MWS the other night who was running Rite of Flame in this deck. I proceeded to lose 3-0 running High Tide. After getting shit draws in game one and losing to Lackey/Siege-Gang (he never saw a Rite), he opened game 2 with Land, Rite, Lackey, Lackey, which swung into Warchief/Ringleader next turn, which picked up two Piledrivers, which he dropped both of. Needless to say I got owned the next turn. Game 3 he went Land/Rite/Rite/Warchief/Piledriver, then followed it with a Matron for Piledriver on turn 2. I managed to peel a Force and stop the second Driver, but by this time he was cracking me for 8 a turn and I couldn't win.)

Shriekmaw
09-19-2006, 12:38 PM
You're joking right? Multiple 1 mana Vidicates are pretty scary. SS is game ending against Affinity. Meltdown is far too slow. Most of the time it makes a huge Frogmite or Enforcer you have to deal with. If you can support Shattering Spree, and Goblins can, that is the way to go against Stax/Affinity/Artifact.dec.


First of all, a lot of Goblins build run very few mountains to have room for 4 wastelands and 4 rishadan ports. In the affinity matchup I do believe meltdown is a lot better than shattering spree. If you are concerned with more stax type decks, then I would probably go with shattering spree instead.

If you wanted to know, Meltdown for 2 just about clears the board for only a 3 mana cost. How exactly do you think Shattering Spree is better?

Inflammatory comment removed. - Zilla

troopatroop
09-19-2006, 12:41 PM
At least consider it from his perspective. Sure, Meltdown is probably better, but I can think of situations with multiple enforcers/frogmites, or a Ravager and Enforcer in play.

Response to inflammatory comment removed. - Zilla

Shriekmaw
09-19-2006, 12:45 PM
At least consider it from his perspective. Sure, Meltdown is probably better, but I can think of situations with multiple enforcers/frogmites, or a Ravager and Enforcer in play. Idk... You're probably right, just cool down.


I try to play this game very seriously. I don't mind discussion on what cards are better, but saying that Meltdown in inferior than Shattering Spree is just flat out incorrect.

Inflammatory response to response to inflammatory comment removed. - Zilla

Bongo
09-19-2006, 01:24 PM
While Tin-Street Hooligan and Shattering Spree are decent options against Affinity, I have found Artifact Mutation to be a bomb in those matchups. Myr Enforcer is a really juicy target.

quicksilver
09-19-2006, 01:45 PM
Goblin tinkerer seems really good against affinity. You can destroy a land/vial every turn, and if you can get it online early, you can shut down their mana completly. It can repeatedly destroy workers and ornithopters and prevent them from activating manlands. Plus it can still destroy an enforcer or ravager if it needs to.

Amon Amarth
09-19-2006, 02:53 PM
I try to play this game very seriously. I don't mind discussion on what cards are better, but saying that Meltdown in inferior than Shattering Spree is just flat out incorrect.

Have you played with SS before? I play R/g Goblins and have had no problem casting it for 3 consistently. Meltdown does nothing against Affinity's ridiculous openings. You know, the turn 2 Double Frog, Ravager, Enforcer. That kind of crazy shit. Meltdown does nothing there, except make bigger Frogs.

And Artifact Mutation is insane.

Eldariel
09-19-2006, 04:18 PM
i think that RG goblins is much superior to rw, because it improves the soliditary matchup with gaea's blessings and gives you a (in my opinion) better tinkerer tin street hooligan. It also provides you with tranquil domain which is a solid car against Cop:red multiple plagues, moat ect.. This deck has proven it self multiple times at big events and proved itself for me yesterday

You seem to forget that Leave no Trace handles multiple Plagues, multiple problem-white enchantments, etc. just as fine as Tranquil Domain. Also, Gaea's Blessing is, and will remain, a wholly trivial SB-card against Solidarity. Chalice of the Void, Pyrostatic Pillar and REBs are Gobbos' best SB that aren't dead against the rest of the field either (there's Sirocco, but it's poor against anything else).

Amon Amarth
09-20-2006, 04:18 AM
You seem to forget that Leave no Trace handles multiple Plagues, multiple problem-white enchantments, etc. just as fine as Tranquil Domain. Also, Gaea's Blessing is, and will remain, a wholly trivial SB-card against Solidarity. Chalice of the Void, Pyrostatic Pillar and REBs are Gobbos' best SB that aren't dead against the rest of the field either (there's Sirocco, but it's poor against anything else).

Leave No Trace is worse against multiple different colored enchantments, like Rift/Slide or Rift/Confinement. Tranquil Domain deals with those more effectively. However, the cards main purpose is to get rid of Plague or multiples thereof, so either Domain or LNT does an effective job of that.

Blessing is a really bad card to board in against High Tide. You want proactive disruption... which is the opposite of Gaea's Blessing. I think every Goblin SB should be packin' REBs. The cards is flat out amazing vs High Tide and does a job against Control as well as keep the Faerie beats in check.

@ Quicksilver: I've used both Hooligan and Tinkerer vs Affinity and I can tell you that Hooligan is far better against that deck than Tinkerer. Tinkerer is only active on the 3rd turn and slows you wayyyyyy down because of his activation cost. The matchup is all about tempo more so than anything else. You want to slow them down and reach the late game where Goblins really shine and can easily put the smack down on the artifact menace. Hooligan kills an Enforcer and trades with Frogs. 1st turn Vial/Lackey, 2nd turn Tin-Street is damn good. So in conclusion, Tin Street>Goblin Tinkerer

Tacosnape
09-20-2006, 02:21 PM
What are people's thoughts on Mogg War Marshal? Is it any good, does it deserve a slot, and where would you fit it in?

Mogg War Marshal
1R
Creature - Goblin Warrior
When Mogg War Marshal comes into play or leaves play, put a 1/1 Red goblin creature token into play.
Echo: 1R
1/1

There wouldn't be many instances where I would pay the echo, but with a Warchief down it's a single red for a pair of goblins, which can make Piledriver outrageous. It would also be awesome in any random Goblins build packing black for Therapy.

What are people's thoughts?

jamest
09-20-2006, 02:57 PM
Mogg War Marshall is pretty good, but Goblin decklists have gotten pretty tight and there just isn't any room for it.

Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician has some potential too, but there are better solutions, namely Goblin Burrows.

In my opinion, the best card for Goblins from Time Spiral isn't even a Goblin. It's Krosan Grip.

Phantom
09-20-2006, 03:42 PM
What are people's thoughts on Mogg War Marshal? Is it any good, does it deserve a slot, and where would you fit it in?

Mogg War Marshal
1R
Creature - Goblin Warrior
When Mogg War Marshal comes into play or leaves play, put a 1/1 Red goblin creature token into play.
Echo: 1R
1/1

There wouldn't be many instances where I would pay the echo, but with a Warchief down it's a single red for a pair of goblins, which can make Piledriver outrageous. It would also be awesome in any random Goblins build packing black for Therapy.

What are people's thoughts?

Wthout therapy, he seems too situational. We need Warchief AND Piledriver down to make him not extremely crappy? With warchief and piledriver down, we are probably winning anyway.

Bane of the Living
09-22-2006, 04:55 PM
Sorry to make a sensless post but has anyone seen anything on the Time Spiral spoiler that might be playable for us? I noticed there were a couple gobs on there.

quicksilver
09-22-2006, 05:01 PM
Sorry to make a sensless post but has anyone seen anything on the Time Spiral spoiler that might be playable for us? I noticed there were a couple gobs on there.

That one that whenever a goblin gets blocked you flig it at the creatures blocking it for 4 damage. It's ok, nothing spectacular.

Phantom
09-25-2006, 11:44 PM
Any thought on whether Vesuva is playable in any amount in Goblins? I like the idea of additional Ports/Wastes that can also drop as our second mountain if need be. Not sure if this will cause too many mulligans though.

kicks_422
09-26-2006, 12:27 AM
The best card that comes out of TS for this deck (the RG version) is Krosan Grip IMHO... Artifacts/Enchantments are the major things which hurt the deck, so an uncounterable, unrespondable is a boon...

SillyMetalGAT
10-04-2006, 10:18 AM
Any thought on whether Vesuva is playable in any amount in Goblins? I like the idea of additional Ports/Wastes that can also drop as our second mountain if need be. Not sure if this will cause too many mulligans though.

Im not completely sure, but I think that Vesuva is still nonbasic if you copy a mountain, which just makes it a wasteland target. Goblins frowns on wasteland targets. :frown: :frown:

EDIT: What do people think about Ib Halfheart? Is he worth it? He might do some good against other aggro, and he can definately help when hes dropped after Warchief with Piledriver on the board.

Eldariel
10-04-2006, 04:23 PM
It copies the whole card, so I'd wager the 'Basic'-part is copied too. At least it copies the 'Legendary'-part in Flagstones and Basic is just as much of a supertype as Legendary. Vesuva simply copies everything, since it doesn't discriminate in the rules-text.

Bongo
10-13-2006, 07:09 AM
The standard land count for Goblins seems to be 22.

However, since there is more often a mana-shortage than mana-flood (especially with Ports&Wastes), I'm thinking going up to 23, maybe even 24. I really hate being manascrewed with Goblins.

What are your experiences in this matter?

Eldariel
10-13-2006, 07:37 AM
The standard land count for Goblins seems to be 22.

However, since there is more often a mana-shortage than mana-flood (especially with Ports&Wastes), I'm thinking going up to 23, maybe even 24. I really hate being manascrewed with Goblins.

What are your experiences in this matter?

Well, classic red decks with Port/Waste tools have always ran 23, except for that RDW 2002 (I recall), which ran 24 just to specifically beat other red decks in the Scroll-wars. However, Vial Goblins run Vial, which means that the deck already has 26 effective land-cards (or more appropriately, enablers) and going up to 23 lands would mean that whooping 27 cards in your deck primarily strive to enable casting your creatures. Still, as long as the deck keeps a good number of utility lands like Port and Waste, it shouldn't be too damaging so I'm all for trying it (when I splashed green in Goblins, I specifically went up to 23 lands to include Pendelhaven (which helps Lackeys, Fanatics, Matrons and company by tons) and it worked pretty well without still experiencing bad floods (since, well, the deck plays Ringleaders just to avoid those).

Now that decks are actually striving to answer Vials and Lackeys, that means that the deck might actually have to play spells, which means it might need more lands.

Bongo
10-13-2006, 08:49 AM
Now that decks are actually striving to answer Vials and Lackeys, that means that the deck might actually have to play spells, which means it might need more lands.

This is one of the reasons I'm thinking about adding another land or two. With Pithing Needle and other hate seeing a lot of play, those one-land Vial hands are just very risky to keep.
Port is also another reason, since it is quite mana-intensive. Even with a Vial or Lackey out, I still want to drop a land every turn until turn 4.
Also, there is a fair amount of Stifles running around, and getting your Fetch countered without another land in your hand is a real set-back.


Another question: What do you think is the minimal number of red sources?

Eldariel
10-13-2006, 09:03 AM
I personally use 14 as the minimal guideline for decks requiring one point of coloured mana on turn 1 and 18 for requiring 2 coloured mana on turn 2 (á la WW, and I derived these from the ages old succesful concepts (WW used to run 18 Plains when it curved out at 2, and 10-land Stompy ran 14 Forests/equivalents when it absolutely needed to hit 1, but needed no more)). Vial increases the count to 18 making it all reliable, but if we have to leave it out of the calculations due to the unreliability, we end up with about 16-17 to support our turn 3 Warchiefs, which we really want to resolve. Basically all the non-Warchief (and, I guess, SGC) cards are fine with 14 red lands though. Also, a note, I personally always like to break such guidelines, which is why Faerie Stompy initially ran only 13 blue sources (the difference of the chance of having a land in opening hand is about 2% between 13 and 14), but meh. Especially when it comes to mulligans, where the chance of having the good hand is lower due to less cards, it's important to have the 14 at least. I'd go with 14 as the bare minimum and if you expect Vials/Lackeys not to live, 16.

Bongo
10-14-2006, 01:15 PM
1) What about using the classic RDW manabase for Vial Goblins?

6 Mountain
2 Taiga or Plateau
8 Fetch
4 Waste
4 Port

This looks really strong even when Lackey or Vial gets handled. When I ran 22 land with 4 Ports and 4 Wastes, I often was short on mana.

What were other people's experiences with 22 lands?

----------------

2) What are the bad matchups for Goblins?
What's the optimal sideboard going into an unknown metagame?

----------------

3) Lately, I've seen a lot of people splashing white for Swords (even maindeck sometimes). Isn't Gempalm, Fanatic and SGC enough to handle creatures?

Shriekmaw
10-14-2006, 01:57 PM
1) What about using the classic RDW manabase for Vial Goblins?

6 Mountain
2 Taiga or Plateau
8 Fetch
4 Waste
4 Port



I have a problem with running 24 lands in Goblins, I just believe its 2 over the limit for the deck. I do like the configuration, but as of right now I run:

5 Mountain
8 Fetch
4 Waste
3 Port
2 Plateau/Taiga

I really like to have those 2 slots available for metagame cards in the deck rather than waste them on land slots.

Tell my what you think?

This configuration has worked very well for me.

Bovinious
10-14-2006, 02:50 PM
Ive been playing vial goblins for a while, always with 22 lands. That amount has seemed perfect, but then again I do not and never have run Rishadan Port, so I suppose if you are you may want a few more red sources. I'd also like to ask is port really neccessary in the deck? I've been doing pretty well without it and have seen tournaments where people have finished well without using port. I guess what Im asking is is Port a staple of the deck or a personal/metagame choice?

Bongo
10-14-2006, 03:18 PM
nickrit:
Your manabase is very close to my old one. It works fine, but I see one problem: You only got 15 red sources, and two of them are Waste-able. 13 seems a bit dangerous for me, especially if you're facing hate.

It's just that those one-land Lackey/Vial hands are very risky.
In a field that is prepared for Goblins, 23 or 24 lands might be the better choice.


bovinious:
Port isn't an automatic inclusion. In my experience, Ports helped a lot (especially to delay hate), so I'd include them. However, this depends on your metagame.


Any opinions about 2) and 3)?

Shriekmaw
10-14-2006, 04:49 PM
I can understand your point by only having 13 ways to get wasteland proof red sources. It just seems like you might get mana flooded more often by adding an additional 2 lands. For a long time, I've always like the mono-red version of goblins, but with a lot of hate that I see, I think its wise to run another color be either red or green.

I always wanted to run Mono-Red Goblins in the mirror match because I feel that it has the advantage by not worrying about the destruction of your red sources.

I would think about adding 2 more mountains in the deck, but I would rather run 2 Jitte in the spot. I have always run Jitte in the deck every since GP: Philly and really think it should be in there. The rest of the deck is a standard build with 1 sharpshooter.

Bovinious
10-14-2006, 05:07 PM
The mana base Ive always ran is:

8 Fetch
2 Plateau
4 Wasteland
8 Mountain

However if I was to run 4 Ports I'd probably up the land count to 23, maybe 24 if getting RR realy gets hard, probably dropping a Gempalm or SGC (or 2). Also, I was wondering if it is still good to run 1 Kiki-Jiki in the deck. Ive recently cut him, as I do not see when he is better than a seige gang, but see other lists that still have 1 Kiki-Jiki. Also, while i realize that Jitte is a great card, I just do not see the reason to run it in this deck, what matchups does it improve that would otherwise be unfavorable?

foursquare
10-15-2006, 01:30 AM
The mana base Ive always ran is:

8 Fetch
2 Plateau
4 Wasteland
8 Mountain

However if I was to run 4 Ports I'd probably up the land count to 23, maybe 24 if getting RR realy gets hard, probably dropping a Gempalm or SGC (or 2). Also, I was wondering if it is still good to run 1 Kiki-Jiki in the deck. Ive recently cut him, as I do not see when he is better than a seige gang, but see other lists that still have 1 Kiki-Jiki. Also, while i realize that Jitte is a great card, I just do not see the reason to run it in this deck, what matchups does it improve that would otherwise be unfavorable?

I'd personally run only 6 Fetchlands if you're only running 2 Duals, it doesn't seem like you'd need more, I've never had a problem with it. My current manabase is :
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Plateau
8 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

I know it's 24 Land, but I've never run into a Mana issue as I had before when I ran 22. I never have a problem hitting RR on turn 2 or RRR on turn 3. Also, I wouldn't ever run less than 4 Gempalm Incinerator, mainly because it's gonna be your best card in the mirror. About Seige Gang, I run 3 of him, he's way too good to run any less. 3 of allows for more of the Lackey -> Seige-Gang Openings. And it's simply a game winner if you have to go to the late game. Also, I don't run Kiki anymore, I now believe he's just a "win more" card; he really only get's good Mid (if you're lucky) or Late game.

@Jitte: It was really only played before people started advocating playing W. It was an answer to Silver Knight, and won the Mirror Match. IMO, it is now way to slow, and STP is a much more efficient answer to Silver Knight, and anything that happens to get into your way. I wouldn't play Jitte.

Bovinious
10-15-2006, 03:19 PM
I think your right about 6 Fetches, if I was running Ports, Id probably cut 2 of them. Also, I do agree about Gempalm Incinerator as a 4 of, and right now I only play 2 Siege Gang (I long ago cut Kiki for the 2nd) because I cannot decide what to cut for a 3rd. Im wondering what did you cut because you have 2 more lands than me currently and 1 more Siege Gang, Im guessing you probably cut the 1 of Sharpshooter that most lists play, but what were the other 2 cuts, I play 3 STP so if you dont run those then theres your 3 slots but from your last post it sounds like you do run STP.

Bongo
10-16-2006, 05:58 AM
This is some tech I've been testing lately, and I want to hear your opinions about it.

Blood Moon.

The negative points first: It is expensive at 3 mana and can be countered. It does almost nothing against combo.

The nice thing about Blood Moon is its game-ending capability. Thresh and UWB Fish need a counter or else this is very close to game-over. 43 Land scoops to this.


I'm currently running Blood Moon in the Crypt/Pillar slot. Of these 3, which do you think is the best choice going into an unknown metagame?

foursquare
10-16-2006, 09:07 AM
I'm currently running Blood Moon in the Crypt/Pillar slot. Of these 3, which do you think is the best choice going into an unknown metagame?

I don't like Blood Moon too much, because if it's dropped turn 3, that's a turn of no Warchief or Matron. Blood Moon kinda slows the deck down, let me say this is all speculation, I'll definately test it out and see what happens. For an Unknown Meta, I'd go with Crypt; just about every other deck in Legacy other than Aggro, has a plan with their Graveyard. Pillar isn't as usefull as it only helps the Thresh and Combo matches.

Bane of the Living
10-16-2006, 05:07 PM
I like Pillar much more because its randomly good against every combo deck, Sui and black disruption decks, and thresh. Crypt is an absolute staple in your sb unless your bringing in something much better against thresh. Like Jotun Grunt? That said I wonder how white splash would perform with them.

I like casting casting a Piledriver through Daze or a 3cc gob on turn 3, not a sb card.

Bovinious
10-16-2006, 06:47 PM
I used to run Blood Moons in my SB, but I never really used them and even when I did put them in and cast them, it was late in the game as people have mentaioned earlier. Also, some people get basic with fetch lands tunr 1-3 if they fear wasteland or keep low land hands, and if you lose game 1, win game 2 via blood moon, you can bet your ass theyre going for basics in game 3. It just doesnt seem like a great card in Legacy like it is in Vintage.

Bongo
10-16-2006, 07:02 PM
The thing is, Crypt is subpar against Threshold. They can counter it, Needle it or recover from it pretty quickly.

Pillar was good against white Thresh, but against red Thresh it backfired. Unlike Crypt or Blood Moon, it doesn't help you to turn the tide around significantly.

Once you have drawn out counters with early pressure, Blood Moon becomes an absolute must-counter. A nice bonus is the mini-combo with Goblin King. I usually don't play it on the 3rd turn anyway, so Daze becomes a non-issue.
I also can't see why Blood Moon should lose it's power compared to Vintage. There are no Moxen to get out of the Moon lock, making it better in Legacy than in Vintage.

I admit, it is clunky sometimes, but is there a better card than Blood Moon against Thresh?

Shriekmaw
10-16-2006, 07:16 PM
@Jitte: It was really only played before people started advocating playing W. It was an answer to Silver Knight, and won the Mirror Match. IMO, it is now way to slow, and STP is a much more efficient answer to Silver Knight, and anything that happens to get into your way. I wouldn't play Jitte.


I would like to hear about the use of main deck jitte in goblins from some other people. The only thing I can think of is cutting 2 jitte and my 1 sharpshooter to play 3 swords to plowshares, but is it really worth it?

Ideas? Suggestions?

foursquare
10-16-2006, 07:17 PM
I admit, it is clunky sometimes, but is there a better card than Blood Moon against Thresh?

I'm thinking Meekstone might be. It beat's Thresh's Bears and Mongeese and what ever else the have, be it, Sea Drake or Mystic Enforcer.

Also, Bathe in Light does't sound too bad. 1W Choose a Color. Target Creature gains protection from that Color until End of Turn. Radiance.

It seems like it'd absolutely wreck the Mirror, Thresh, Angel Stompy, and any creature based deck.

Bane of the Living
10-16-2006, 10:20 PM
Why not play Jotun Grunt then? Its better than Crypt because its a huge body, and its uncounterable via vial. It stays out to continue the punishment while dealing 4 a turn. Its also not a needle target.

Bongo
10-17-2006, 07:02 AM
Meekstone seems amazing! I haven't seen Thresh board in Naturalize yet.

Jotun Grunt is also very interesting. The only downside is its vulnerability to Swords.

About Jitte: don't use it. You lose a lot of tempo if your Goblin gets destroyed in response to the equip.


How do your sideboards look like?

foursquare
10-17-2006, 10:14 AM
Here's the board I'm running.
3 Meekstone
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Disenchant
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

I like my board, mainly, because it can beat all the top tier decks. You've got Tinkerer, Sharpshooter, and Pyrokinesis (and Playskill) to beat the mirror and any random aggro deck. Disenchant, kills Jitte's, SoFI, Humility, etc etc. REB is pretty good, IMO it should be in every Red deck's Sideboard.

jrp
10-17-2006, 01:07 PM
@foursquare - I suppose there is not much Solidarity in your metagame, because your board won't help you much in that matchup. 4 REB is not enough if you wish to improve your post-board Solidarity match-up. I would suggest Pyrostatic Pillar if there is Solidarity and other storm combo in your metagame.

On the subject of Tormod's Crypt: It may not be the best sideboard card against Threshold due to Pithing Needle, Stifle, or a cantrip-chain post crypting, but it is a good card to have in the sideboard. Crypt affects multiple decks, not just Threshold, unlike a narrow card like Meekstone. Here is a short list of decks that Crypt may be boarded in against:
IGGy-Pop
Reanimator
Life from the Loam decks (Slide, Confinement, etc)
Ichorid

Also, Thresh's Pithing Needles are already working overtime against Goblins. They need a Needle on Vial if you draw it. If they board in Tiv's Crusade and do not have a basic Plains, they will need a Needle on Wasteland. Plus you have Ports that they may want to Needle. Personally, I love the Crypt in my SB.

kicks_422
10-17-2006, 08:41 PM
Is the mono-red version still viable?... I was kind of thinking of returning to the almost pure goblin build (22 land, 4 vial, 34 goblins), as almsot all the goblin decks running around now are pretty diluted, with 3-6 non-goblins in the MD along with 4 Vial...

To aid the losses that a mono-red build will suffer (mainly vs. E. Plague and bigger creatures), how about running 4 Goblin King MD, as well as Goblin Burrows?... SB could still be potent with 4 Pyrostatic Pillars for combo, 3 Crypt for Thresh, etc.

Or should I just give in and splash white for StP main and Disenchants, Geddon SB?

One last thing... How do you play Goblins against Dryad Sligh? That's my deck right now, and I'm thinking of switching solely to Vial Goblins... Kird Ape, growing Firewalkers and Quirion Dryads, plus a whole slew of burn for removal seems very hard to get around for Goblins...

foursquare
10-17-2006, 11:11 PM
@foursquare - I suppose there is not much Solidarity in your metagame, because your board won't help you much in that matchup. 4 REB is not enough if you wish to improve your post-board Solidarity match-up. I would suggest Pyrostatic Pillar if there is Solidarity and other storm combo in your metagame.

On the subject of Tormod's Crypt: It may not be the best sideboard card against Threshold due to Pithing Needle, Stifle, or a cantrip-chain post crypting, but it is a good card to have in the sideboard. Crypt affects multiple decks, not just Threshold, unlike a narrow card like Meekstone. Here is a short list of decks that Crypt may be boarded in against:
IGGy-Pop
Reanimator
Life from the Loam decks (Slide, Confinement, etc)
Ichorid

Also, Thresh's Pithing Needles are already working overtime against Goblins. They need a Needle on Vial if you draw it. If they board in Tiv's Crusade and do not have a basic Plains, they will need a Needle on Wasteland. Plus you have Ports that they may want to Needle. Personally, I love the Crypt in my SB.

Yeah dude, I would much rather play crypt. But my Meta has David Gearhart and Alix Hatfield... enough said right? With Goblins, you really don't need more than 4 cards because you can already race the deck game 1. And if you decide to sideboard in the REBs, taking out slower goblins, you've made it that much better. It's not the hardest matchup to win with only 4 REBs to help out.

Also, I would much rather like to play Tormod's Crypt in a much more open meta, but my metagame consists of 3-4 Gro decks a week, 1-2 Solidarity (Gearhart, and occasionally My Name is Scott or myself).

Kadath128
10-17-2006, 11:13 PM
Pyrokinesis is awesome against Dryad Sligh, as is Pyrostatic Pillar. A friend of mine plays it off and on. All lthough it can be a dirty match for Goblins because of 1st turn 2/3's, Lavamancer, or unchecked Dryad, with Fireblast to reach out and touch you, it's still winnable.

I play Kinesis main though, so that helps a ton game 1. A good note is NEVER count on a Lackey going through, hell I even tried boarding them out once and didn't really notice.

Bane of the Living
10-18-2006, 04:33 PM
I've always prefered mono red. The manabase is more reliable, especially in the mirror. It also lets you run 8 colorless lands. Right now Im playing 4 Wastelands and 4 Burrows. IBA was right, burrows breaks the thresh matchup. Silly stalemates are completely broken with the help of Burrows, cutting down bear after bear.

Im thinking of playing maybe 2 non goblin cards in the maindeck. Pyrokinesis sounds like the best idea although 2 Tormods Crypt sounds fun, it did well recently.

My monored gob plan to beat E plague is Goblin Goon. Hes a house.

Kadath128
10-18-2006, 06:20 PM
Kenisis MD is sick. It really and truely is disgusting. It's another option to help a lackey get through, and just deals with things people do not expect to be dealt with game 1 by Gobs.

About the Goon though, I played one maindeck for a while but it was basically pointless since he rarely will be able to swing under double plague, and single plague is quite winnable anyway. How do you work him to make him so effective?

Bane of the Living
10-18-2006, 07:03 PM
Goon x 4. Play a matron get a goon. Play a matron, get a goon. He cant be Smothered. Is often too big to get Ghastly Demise'd, and at least gains you 6 life when stp'd. In the thresh match he's as big as even enforcer. Giving you another gob besides ringleader to leave vial@4 is nice too.

I like Patron of the Akki for mono red but Goon is showing promise since he's just nuts with Warchief, and good with vial.

Aside from Burrows I was playing around with the idea of Ancient Tomb in the deck. Turn 2 Matrons, Turn 3 Ringleaders, quicker Goons and SGC's. It also opens up options for Chalice of the Void in the board. Something much more powerfull against thresh and combo than Crypt.

Bongo
10-19-2006, 03:46 PM
Wouldn't 4x Goblin King be more reliable than 4x Goblin Goon then because Goons are stopped by creatures?

How's your Ancient Tomb version doing in testing?

tivadar
10-19-2006, 04:00 PM
Aside from Burrows I was playing around with the idea of Ancient Tomb in the deck. Turn 2 Matrons, Turn 3 Ringleaders, quicker Goons and SGC's. It also opens up options for Chalice of the Void in the board. Something much more powerfull against thresh and combo than Crypt.

Wow, something useful to say in the gobbo forum... Personally, I've always thought this deck would be much more explosive with Tomb than with Vial. Vial gives you a better late game (and goodness against counterspells) but outside of that isn't overly useful (though that counter thing is obviously important).

However, adding Tomb doesn't really gear you for chalice. The problem being you have far too many 1ccs to make it worth it. Just board other effective combo hosers or race combo.

There's also the question of whether tomb or chrome mox is better. Personally, I'd lean towards tomb so as not to have to worry about card loss. The thing is, though, once tomb is in I'd take the deck an entirely different direction and go "goblin stompy" with it (see angel stompy :-P). This would mean adding jitte mainboard. Sure, this decreases the gobbo count, but it helps a TON against AS, which is still rather popular and a bad matchup for you.

Anyways, the way I see it there's two ways to go. If your meta is counterheavy, I'd go with vial. If it's not, try out tomb and jitte (2 or 3 of probably). I think ancient tomb and jitte really go hand-in-hand in most decks (along with effective 2cc creatures...).

Eldariel
10-19-2006, 04:09 PM
Bongo: The problem is, once that second Plague comes down, the Kings start dying. A lot. And if they only stay alive thanks to each other, all it takes is one Funeral Charm to end the game.

Tivadar: I've considered it too. I actually think, the deck should and could run Chrome Mox instead of some Mountains since the deck is VERY capable of making up for the lost cards via Ringleaders and turn 2 Warchief is one of the scariest possible plays the deck can make. That's the big problem with Tomb, it doesn't address the coloured mana requirements of Warchiefs. The good news is, that's the only one really. I'd want to try a deck with all of them, since Tomb is yet another step to being less reliant on Vial to use the big guys.


My Big Goblins-deck was actually fairly succesful with 4 Mogg Flunkies and Goblin Goons to address the manacurve and the power-curve. Still, Flunkies are ultimately unreliable and Goon is horrible in the mirror, since it doesn't help outswarming the opponent, and if your opponent manages that, he can do nothing. Also, he usually dies to a single Gempalm in the mirror, since there are a few dudes on both sides.


As for Chalice, I'd play it WITHOUT either of them. It's awesome if you can drop it turn 2 after Lackey or Vial, which basically make all 1-CC spells moot, so you can easily afford that. It's by far the best combo-hate I've seen to the date in addition to Pillar, and can be dropped for 0 if you're pressed for time against IGgy.

AnwarA101
10-19-2006, 05:11 PM
I find it interesting that Machinus' first place list had no answer to Engineered Plague other than to just beat the decks playing it. I'm not sure there are any decks that are seeing much play that actually play Engineered Plague. Deadguy Ale is like the only one and it hasn't exactly been doing well in the current metagame.

quicksilver
10-19-2006, 05:19 PM
He had a great answer to engineered plague against me, double waste, double port, removal for every creature. He never let me get to 3 mana and I died with 3 plagues in hand. That's a pretty good answer if you ask me.

Kadath128
10-19-2006, 05:28 PM
He had a great answer to engineered plague against me, double waste, double port, removal for every creature. He never let me get to 3 mana and I died with 3 plagues in hand. That's a pretty good answer if you ask me.

It is, but I can't say it is an entirely reliable answer.

The high end tournaments Plague may not be all over, but in the majority of 1.5 tournies, the small scale and local events, it is. At least here in Vancouver/Portland you can guarentee that you will face it as much as a third of the time.

So for THOSE decks what options are there? The King seems ok since it lets you ride through a single plague uneffected for the most part, with the idea to win before the next. The big gobs is an idea also but I have no idea how anyone finds room for 4 Goons without losing more powerful cards.

I play R/W myself and run Leave no Trace to answer enchantments. Artifacts are not really quite as common and not as difficult to win under as double plague while looking for disenchant. Basically I like to fully answer a situation before worring about the next one on the list :P

kicks_422
10-19-2006, 06:30 PM
My answer to Plague is 4 Kings MD... Yeah, 2 Plagues would still be GG against me, but I could dig for the Kings as well as them, as I have Matrons and Ringleaders...

What are everyone's thoughts on 4 Waste/4 Ports? I'm finding that Port is becoming less needed and have switched it with Goblin Burrows, for a Goblin to be able to kill a Mongoose by itself...

Volt
10-19-2006, 06:56 PM
My answer to Plague is 4 Kings MD... Yeah, 2 Plagues would still be GG against me, but I could dig for the Kings as well as them, as I have Matrons and Ringleaders...

What are everyone's thoughts on 4 Waste/4 Ports? I'm finding that Port is becoming less needed and have switched it with Goblin Burrows, for a Goblin to be able to kill a Mongoose by itself...

There does seem to be a little bit of a trend of going away from Rishadan Ports. Speaking as someone who is often very annoyed playing against them, I think cutting them is a mistake.

Firebrothers
10-19-2006, 07:58 PM
There does seem to be a little bit of a trend of going away from Rishadan Ports. Speaking as someone who is often very annoyed playing against them, I think cutting them is a mistake.

Well when I play goblins with ports and wastelands i often find it hard to hit the second red needed for warchief. I Just run wastelands and it works just as fine IMO.

NoGameShow
10-19-2006, 08:37 PM
Correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't the main reason for running ports to begin with battle the dreaded Wrath/Vengeance/every other sweeper Landstill had. WIth Landstill no longer a contender in the format I think most people still run them as a comfort thing. I'd be interested in any testing without them.

kicks_422
10-19-2006, 08:40 PM
That seems to be the argument against running both Wastes and Ports, as (assuming 22 lands, which I think is the standard number) 14 sources of red seem a bit low for a deck which wants to hit double-red by turn 3...

Would the delay that Ports cause other decks be a bigger benefit for Goblins than the delay that you cause to yourself in case of only one or none at all red sources?

Ports seem to be better against control decks, while Burrows are better against other aggro and aggro-control, while none of these two are good against combo (IMHO)...

Ever since I started playing Goblins, I've never played with Ports or Wastes, just 4 Burrows for 18 sources of red... If I drop Burrows from my build for Wasteland, I'd probably play with Ib Halfheart as a tutor target to have something which kills Thresh's dudes...

Lego
10-20-2006, 01:20 PM
If you're tying to decide between Chrome Mox and Ancient Tomb, I'd say just play them both. 4 of each. And a couple of City of Traitors. Then play 4 Seething Song. Leave in the normal explosiveness of 4 Lackey, 4 Piledriver, 4 Ringleader, 4 Matron, 4 Warchief, 4 Incinerator, up your Siege-Gangs to 4. Then you've got about 7 slots left. Throw in 3 Kiki-Jiki and you've got room for 4 Goblin Setller. GG NuB.

Copying Goblin Settler on turn 2 to destroy both of your opponent's lands is pretty hot. Just saying.

Machinus
10-20-2006, 04:59 PM
I find it interesting that Machinus' first place list had no answer to Engineered Plague other than to just beat the decks playing it. I'm not sure there are any decks that are seeing much play that actually play Engineered Plague. Deadguy Ale is like the only one and it hasn't exactly been doing well in the current metagame.


He had a great answer to engineered plague against me, double waste, double port, removal for every creature. He never let me get to 3 mana and I died with 3 plagues in hand. That's a pretty good answer if you ask me.

This is a worthwhile discussion topic. I worked on this problem for some time before I decided that the deck was so terrible at answering hate that it actually made it much worse when it was trying to do so.

The game states that shut down the deck are rare. Double Plague, Humility, etc. Mana disruption is a huge strength of the deck when fighting hate like this. (I cut wasteland on a bad metagame call and that fucked up my performance, but cutting port might be the worst suggestion I have ever read for this deck.) My deck also has the ability to answer any number of artifacts, so I had a lot of confidence in the deck's disruption.

I decided that I was willing to risk encounting the low frequency of this hate, rely on the disruption and speed of the deck, and hope that I could play through randomness. It's just a result of a certain kind of tournament strategy that many good players have. There is a well-known solidarity player on this website with a quotation related to ths school of thought in his signature.

Farragut won that battle, by the way.

raudo
10-21-2006, 04:59 AM
Copying Goblin Settler on turn 2 to destroy both of your opponent's lands is pretty hot. Just saying.

Never heard about Goblin Settlers? You mean Orcish Settlers?

Marco
10-21-2006, 11:13 AM
Goblin Settler (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=20216#)

raudo
10-22-2006, 03:44 AM
Wow! The place I use to find the cards mtgnews (http://frontpage.mtgnews.com/frontpage/) doesn't even know this card exists.

Eldariel
10-30-2006, 07:00 PM
I've tested a build with 20 lands including 3 Tombs + 3 Moxes and 16 coloured sources total (dropping Wasteland sticking to Rishadan Port) a bit and it certainly feels effective. While Vial can still do its thing, the fact that the Ringleaders and Siege-Gangs come out hardcast helps tons too. Also, the 16 coloured sources-thingy helps cast those Warchiefs and Siege-Gangs without Vial or Lackey. Then going turn 1 Mountain-Mox-2 Lackeys has to be one of the dirtiest plays ever, especially since you can follow up with turn 3 kill WHILE dropping Ringleaders and such to recoup your hand. Also, sequences such as Matron>Pyromancer>swing for 20 become much more doable (or even Matron-Matron-Pyromancer for 4 extra damage if the game has gone on a bit longer), with Warchief in play obviously. Now, this all obviously comes with downsides; first of all, 23 mana sources means the Ringleaders will be slightly worse (although I play 33 Goblins so it's not as bad as your average Rw build) than average. Second, by necessity such a build has to eschew Wasteland or Port leading to the mana denial theme becoming much weaker. I opted to keep Ports since there are enough mono-coloured decks to make 'em overall more useful than Wastelands. The added speed helps but I'm not sure it's enough to make up for the loss of the ability to just screw people off their plays. One thing worth noting is that the deck can painlessly incorporate max. of 4 Moxes at will since they can just replace Mountains and Ringleaders, Matrons, Siege-Gangs and company make sure you won't be hurting too bad from the imprinting. In fact, I think Goblins are the most natural deck in the format to utilize Mox, except for the fact that they lack in 2-drops and have plenty of 1-drops they really want to use (save Machinus's '4-Tinkerer Solution'). So, the final verdict? Tomb is good, but so is Wasteland. Which is better? I can't rightly say, but Tomb probably improves the MU against most combo-decks while Waste gives more fits to control (one can't say that lots of mana wouldn't help there though, and against control, the lifeloss is fairly inconsequential). In mirror, well, depends on opponent's use of Wastes, but since it usually comes down to resolving Ringleaders, Tombs should give a slight edge if used sparingly and Vials eat Tinkerer.

On a totally other note, has anyone ever tried blue splash in Gobs? Daze/Mana Leak/such could work pretty well in a deck with heavy mana denial and they could help against lots of the problems the deck presently has. Besides, casting Quicksilver Dagger on Lackey sounds the like the jankiest winning play ever (tap: drop a Goblin). Then again, Quicksilver Dagger is absolutely horrible, being Aura and whatnot, but counters could actually be a serious consideration. As everyone knows, they're the least discriminative answer in Magic.

xsockmonkeyx
10-31-2006, 03:38 AM
I've tested a build with 20 lands including 3 Tombs + 3 Moxes and 16 coloured sources total (dropping Wasteland sticking to Rishadan Port) a bit and it certainly feels effective. While Vial can still do its thing, the fact that the Ringleaders and Siege-Gangs come out hardcast helps tons too. Also, the 16 coloured sources-thingy helps cast those Warchiefs and Siege-Gangs without Vial or Lackey. Then going turn 1 Mountain-Mox-2 Lackeys has to be one of the dirtiest plays ever, especially since you can follow up with turn 3 kill WHILE dropping Ringleaders and such to recoup your hand. Also, sequences such as Matron>Pyromancer>swing for 20 become much more doable (or even Matron-Matron-Pyromancer for 4 extra damage if the game has gone on a bit longer), with Warchief in play obviously. Now, this all obviously comes with downsides; first of all, 23 mana sources means the Ringleaders will be slightly worse (although I play 33 Goblins so it's not as bad as your average Rw build) than average. Second, by necessity such a build has to eschew Wasteland or Port leading to the mana denial theme becoming much weaker. I opted to keep Ports since there are enough mono-coloured decks to make 'em overall more useful than Wastelands. The added speed helps but I'm not sure it's enough to make up for the loss of the ability to just screw people off their plays. One thing worth noting is that the deck can painlessly incorporate max. of 4 Moxes at will since they can just replace Mountains and Ringleaders, Matrons, Siege-Gangs and company make sure you won't be hurting too bad from the imprinting. In fact, I think Goblins are the most natural deck in the format to utilize Mox, except for the fact that they lack in 2-drops and have plenty of 1-drops they really want to use (save Machinus's '4-Tinkerer Solution'). So, the final verdict? Tomb is good, but so is Wasteland. Which is better? I can't rightly say, but Tomb probably improves the MU against most combo-decks while Waste gives more fits to control (one can't say that lots of mana wouldn't help there though, and against control, the lifeloss is fairly inconsequential). In mirror, well, depends on opponent's use of Wastes, but since it usually comes down to resolving Ringleaders, Tombs should give a slight edge if used sparingly and Vials eat Tinkerer.


@ Eldariel: My brain is hurting trying to imagine the decklist from the changes. Can you do me a favor and post the list that you are using?

Thanks

EDIT: Goblin Settler is haute.

Eldariel
10-31-2006, 07:50 AM
Mana
13 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Chrome Mox
4 ∆ther Vial

Creatures
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Tinkerer
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin King
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician
1 Goblin Pyromancer
2 Siege-Gang Commander


Sideboard
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyrokinesis

On another note, Ib Halfheart is going out. As much as I love the idea of using it against Thres or such, the chances of it resolving when it counts are miniscule, and it does nothing against 2/3rds of the format, especially with the landbase being as it is. I'm thinking either an additional Siege-Gang, Kiki-Jiki (SGC has easier manacost though, and the whole '1-man army' thing going on), Incinerator, King, Tinkerer or perhaps something techy.

al the great
10-31-2006, 10:06 AM
Personally I would suggest adding in another Siege gang for main board instead of kiki main just because you'll get more chances with lackey connected into Siege gang. I dont know i've never really liked kiki main and I've never used him as sideboard either.

Eldariel
10-31-2006, 10:44 AM
Personally I would suggest adding in another Siege gang for main board instead of kiki main just because you'll get more chances with lackey connected into Siege gang. I dont know i've never really liked kiki main and I've never used him as sideboard either.

My take on this matter:


Siege-Gang:
+costs only RR
+deals direct damage
+creates a 1-man army
-doesn't reduce your vulnerability to sweepers when on board
-isn't quite as 'broken' as Kiki

Kiki:
+can be used to just draw your deck and such with Ringleader or Matron, and do nutty things with Warchiefs, Lackeys, Piledrivers, Kings, or just basically any card in the deck. Even Fanatic turns into extra removal.
+tokens have a natural haste, as well as Kiki, so reduces the necessity of Warchief for explosive turns
-is weak alone
-can't get past cards like Moat without Mogg Fanatic
-is incredibly hard to hardcast

Prolly Siege-Gang, but I do like the Wrath-resilience Kiki can provide, as well as the absolute brokenness it can do with just about anything. Then again, Tinkerer would, while being less broken, provide the deck with a better curve and much higher resiliency to Jittes, SoFIs and company while also helping against additional Vials and just being a Goblin. I'll have to dwell on it. Definately not bla bla bla Heart though.