[DTB] Vial Goblins

[Bongo]

Siege-Gang is better than Kiki for the following reasons:

1. It is a very good topdeck after a Wrath effect.

2. It's useful on it's own.

3. Provides another win condition outside of combat.

Also, both can be used for the 3rd turn kill.


Another topic: Isn't there a better card against the mirror than Pyrokinesis? Would something like Shard Phoenix or Sphere of Law be effective?


EDIT: 1000th Post!

[Complete_Jank]

Siege-Gang is better than Kiki for the following reasons:

1. It is a very good topdeck after a Wrath effect.

2. It's useful on it's own.

3. Provides another win condition outside of combat.

Also, both can be used for the 3rd turn kill.


Another topic: Isn't there a better card against the mirror than Pyrokinesis? Would something like Shard Phoenix or Sphere of Law be effective?




EDIT: 1000th Post!

Yea, Goblin Pyromancer is pretty tech in the mirror.

[VaBeachScrub]

If no one minds, I'd like to humbly offer my 3 cents on the matter. I figure I get an extra penny since I won a Duel for Duals with this build. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=78471&postcount=901)

Wasteland vs Port: If you don't feel comfortable running only 14 red sources (I sure don't) you're going to have to cut either Wasteland or Port. I feel that in this deck Port is superior. Wasteland actually costs you a land drop, whereas Port only requires a mana investment, and is still around the next turn. The fact is the bulk of Goblin's curve is surprisingly in the 3-5 mana range. The deck is mana hungry. Vial and Lackey are great for cheating mana costs but you'll need to win a lot of games playing your goblins honestly. Port disrupts on turn 2 and still powers out a warchief turn 3. I split them 4 Ports/2 Wasteland.

Siege-gang vs Kiki: Kiki-Jiki is fun. He does silly things. Everyone likes him and he's the life of the party. Siege-gang, on the other hand, shows up at the party with 3 friends and then starts hurling the guests at your opponent's noggin. Siege-gang is all business. 3xSGC means you have a late game plan of dropping bomb after bomb EOT from the Vial on 5. Kiki's great in T1 goblins, but this is Legacy.

Splash or mono: It seems too easy to add a splash color to not do so considering the benefits. I could see going molo-colored if Stifle or Anhk or something like that becomes a problem, but as it is it seems like you'll want to go either white or green. They're very close, and basically the argument comes down to StP and Armageddon vs Tin-Street Hooligan and Pendelhaven. Either way is good, and I personally splash white, but I get the feeling that the Hooligan is good enough to make green the better choice.

Metagame slots: The way I think about it is this. Goblins is so tight and synergistic that you could run it as 57 cards and have 3 blanks and it would still win nearly as often as it does. A dead card here or there just doesn't matter much when Ringleader is working. Thus, there's little reason not to add some 2- or 3-of to shore up a weakness. Some people run Swords. Some run Jitte. That's all fine and I think it adds to the deck. But personally, I feel Disenchant is the best choice. You've already got 57 cards geared to win aggressively, and Disenchant mops up most cards that give such a focused strategy problems. Things like Moat, or Solitary Confinement, or Propaganda, Jitte, etc. All these random things that could outright beat you are suddenly answerable. Additionally, they're hardly dead. In the big 3 matchups, it hits Aether Vial in the mirror (HUGE), Pithing Needle against Threshold (pretty huge too) and is dead only against Solidarity, where you'll have to rely on the other 57 cards.

That being said, if you go with the green splash I think Hooligan would be a better choice than Naturalize, although you may lose to enchantments that way, a 2 mana 2 power shatter goblin is just too good to pass up.

Chalice of the Void: 4x in every sideboard. They're great against Solidarity and crushing against Threshold.

Well, that's all the ranting I can manage with this BAC. Hope I helped or something.

[Goblin Snowman]

I'm running no DE in my main, simply because I have no Confinements, Moats, or Humilities to worry about. I'm going between Sparksmtih and Pyrokenisis in the main since they both are great at killing stuff. Sparksmith does kill you, but also gives usually 3-4 for 1.

[Bane of the Living]

Ok guys I've left my mono red goblin routine to try some green goblins. The biggest card in this push was Krosan Grip. Grip efficiently answers all goblins problems, the game ending cards such as Moat, Solitary Confinement, Deed. It takes care of Engineered Plague and Pithing Needles whether or not they're backed by counter. It also breaks us free from the random Scepter Chant matches. Compare DE or Naturalize against Threshold. Although its a mana cheaper you should be playing it around Daze, essentially making it a three mana spell. You can get a gamebreaking effect when you destroy a Pithing Needle naming Aether Vial.

I've never found the need to run Lightning Bolt or Swords in gobs due to the Gempalms and Fanatics. The brute force of goblins aggressive plan is usually enough to take down other creatures. This spot seems best reserved for your Grips.

The green splash's Tin Streets are also the real deal. Im suprised they've gone so underplayed but in random meta they have endless targets. MWS certainly shows him enough to blow away. The Warchief Descrepancy doesnt seem to show itself much. If you have chief out you normally dont need the Tin Street, chief barely lives more than a turn or two anyways. He fills an important 2 drop role in your deck that randomly gives you tempo advantage, dropping wins in your lap when he kills a Chrome Mox or Aether Vial. At least, he can be played as a one of to Matron up. Who can complain about that?

The last card I've been playing around with is Rancor. I've had this trigger Lackey many times where he wouldnt normally. Matrons all of a sudden become asskickers, and Piledriver has TRAMPLE!! Its huge in the mirror where you need to eek in your damage whenever possible, and it does amazing things against threshed creatures.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Are you running MD Grips?

The problem is, can Rancor match the sheer brokenness of Jitte?

[Bane of the Living]

Are you running MD Grips?

The problem is, can Rancor match the sheer brokenness of Jitte?

Jitte is slower than a main phase King Cheeta. I've never liked it because your gobs get targeted removal aimed at them when you equip it. Its also a huge needle target. In the mirror, as good as it is, there are still Goblin Tinkerers to screw with it. Goblins have always had problems with Enchantmants and that doesnt change when you bring Rancor in against the mirror. Whoever has cor on them will get through important trample damage turn after turn. Your men will always be a bigger threat. In the late games when Gob mirrors come down to who draws Ringleaders, it turns into who draws leaders and rancors. Having 2 sitting in hand to re-enchant gob after gob is a merciless tactic that takes the attrition war by the horns.

Plus, think of how many games you played a turn one lackey only to get trumped by a turn one mongoose. No more. Lackey triggers so much more with Rancors in the deck.

Krosan Grip imho is the best card from TS. Its great against everything except Thresh and Solidarity. Thresh plays only 0-2 targets while Solidarity plays 0. This makes me want to keep in the in sideboard. I like Rancor alot but its not a great sideboard option against anything. Here is my current build of Green Goblins.

4 Mire
4 Foothills
4 Mountain
3 Rishadin Port
3 Wasteland
4 Taiga

3 Fanatic
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
2 Hooligan
4 Matron
4 Warchief
4 Gempalm
4 Ringleader
2 SGC

3 Rancor
4 Aether Vial

SB
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tormods Crypt
1 Ib (TS Dude)
3 Krosan Grip
4 REB

I dont need REBs in the board but Im not sure what to turn them into yet. Probably something for the mirror. Ib is sick and I want to fit him in the maindeck. I might take out another fanatic for him. 1cc drops are weak when your playing with CotV.

[Bongo]

Interesting twist.


I do have a few comments:

1) I would change the 3 Rancor into the 3rd Hooligan, 4th Wasteland and 1 Halfheart/4th Mogg Fanatic. While Rancor is a good card, it doesn't improve your bad matchups significantly. Also, they are non-Goblin cards, which makes Ringleaders worse (besides other drawbacks of not being a Goblin).


2) Against which decks are you bringing Chalice in? Has the anti-synergy between Chalice=1 and Vial/Lackey been problematic at times?


3) If you don't need the REBs in your meta, I would change them to Pyrokinesis for the mirror (or Pillar if you're expecting Solidarity).

[Bane of the Living]

Interesting twist.


I do have a few comments:

1) I would change the 3 Rancor into the 3rd Hooligan, 4th Wasteland and 1 Halfheart/4th Mogg Fanatic. While Rancor is a good card, it doesn't improve your bad matchups significantly. Also, they are non-Goblin cards, which makes Ringleaders worse (besides other drawbacks of not being a Goblin).


2) Against which decks are you bringing Chalice in? Has the anti-synergy between Chalice=1 and Vial/Lackey been problematic at times?


3) If you don't need the REBs in your meta, I would change them to Pyrokinesis for the mirror (or Pillar if you're expecting Solidarity).

1) Well Im well aware of the ringleader issue but as we all know and can see from results, the deck can afford non goblin non vial cards. Most current builds of goblins have been playing 2-4 Tormods Crypts, Disenchants, Naturalize, Lightning Bolt, or Swords to Plowshares. The reward for playing the cards far outweighs the cost of a ringleader netting you -1 card. We've all hit good and bad ringleaders, consisting of 4 goblins or 3 lands even. The deck can afford to play with 31 goblin cards.

All I can really say about Rancor is to try it out. See how it works for you. It depends on your goblins playstyle. If you like controlling builds with Tinkerer's and Sharpshooters or with Pyromancer and such. Rancor makes the deck spiral into more straight aggro. Instead of playing a responsive card (insert stp, DE, ect) you play an aggressive card. Personally, I like the aggresive push. Rancor also plays an important role in the attrition war. Alot of games that go late come down to who rips what off the top of their deck. When you rip a goblin of any kind it will certainly have +2/0 and trample. Anyone whos playtested with Goblin Burrows knows exactly how much tactical advantage it gives you. Also now that you have rancor for your power boost you can keep Wasteland and Rishadin Port rather than playing Burrows. Adding Trample to goblins is retarded. Lackey and Piledriver become retarded. Like Chuck Norris retarded. Just give it a try.

2) When you side in chalice you take out fanatic and possibly lackey or vial depending on the matchup. Usually taking out fanatic and running your 8 1cc and cotv is fine. All that matters is that one sticks. Vial or Lackey turn one. Chalice turn two. If either of those resolves against thresh or solidarity your in good shape. If both resolve you should win the game.

3) Pyrokinesis is surely the way to go but Im looking for alot of options. If I chose to keep Rancor I dont need as much help with the mirror.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Although I still prefer the Green splash, being the generous King of Legacy that I am, I thought I would mention that a new card in Time Spiral greatly boosts the viability of mono-red Goblins by giving it an answer to CoP: Red, Solitary Confinement, Worship, Pariah, Parallax Wave, Pernicious Deed, Reverence, Sphere of Law, Ensnaring Bridge, Sword of Fire & Ice on an attacking Silver Knight, an Umezawa's Jitte with four counters on it, an untapped Mystic Enforcer, Werebear, Ravenous Baloth, Glacial Chasm, Maze of Ith, or Leyline of the Void with Ill-Gotten Gains on the stack, amongst a thousand other dilemmas; pretty much everything but Akroma. Also, because I forgot to mention it, it's completely uncounterable. Welcome to the future.

Obey! (http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/TSP/en-us/Card118870.jpg)

[xsockmonkeyx]

Wow. I initially dismissed that card during the leaking of the set because (I think) the leaked oracle read "target creature". Target permanent changes everything!

*bows to "the King" for his generous tech*

[Jak]

Doesn't the permanent have to be tapped? Because then when would the opponent tap something like confinement or CoP. Also is mono-red goblins viable. I was thinking about splashing, but seeing how many red mana sources their were after adding fetchlands scared me. Mono-red I think is pretty much the same. I got the idea from Toadimon on starcitygames about ronom unicorn or something of the likes. You can vial it in. If the splash is that much better please tell me. Thanks

[kicks_422]

No, it doesn't have to be tapped. You just get to untap if it is, as gaining control of say a Mystic Enforcer for a turn with haste won't mean a thing if it's tapped, right?

The mono-red version is still viable (It split for 1st in a recent tournament with a Sourcer pilot, don't remember the exact details though), though the current trend is splashing a color for additional support. Ronom Unicorn might be vialable, but I'd rather stick with Disenchant, as I wouldn't want to keep my Vial set at 2.

I find the green splash interesting though, with Rancors and the very valuable Krosan Grips in the SB, though I'm wary of dropping the StP's as I've grown to find them very valuable in Legacy Goblins (I run 4 MD) and the control-smashing Armageddon from the SB.

I'm going to try it out.

[Jak]

Well I was also thinking about harmonic sliver. Just the fact that gobs has a lot of 3 cc guys and so leaving the vial open for him won'y hurt. Also it can destroy artifacts too. Just a thought. I would like to splash a color, but I can't give up the mana denial or go fewer than 10 mountains. Any people play ing mono red decklist and want to post them would help.

[VaBeachScrub]

Ok, this is The Source so I figured I'd ask; is there any procedure for banning the guy that in two posts suggests adding unicorns and slivers to a highly-tuned goblin deck?

Regarding the white vs green debate, I think green has won me over. Hooligans in the maindeck and Grips in the board are just too good. For me StP was always fine but rarely necessary and I never played w/ Armageddon, so I might be missing the boat there. But 34 goblins and I still get to blow up vials, needles, and equipment? AND I get a much needed 2 drop? Done and done.

Rancor seems fun and I've tried it before, but in practice I found it to underperform. A fanatic on the opponent's side tends to strand the Rancor in your hand, and instant speed removal means the enchantment often goes straight from the stack to the graveyard.

I think my favorite suggestions so far from this thread are Pendelhaven and Ancient Tomb. I'm trying them both out but I think they'll have a hard time competing with the port/wasteland package. The Word of Seizing is pretty tech though, definitely something to think about thanks to the split-second ability.

One thing I don't get is the fascination with Ib Halfheart. Would someone please explain his appeal? I definitely see potential in him but I don't see how he's better than, say, Pyromancer.

[Jak]

VA, all I was saying is that mono red is still great. I made the suggestion to run those to cards if you are being beat down by enchantments that you can't deal with. It's not like I run 4 of each MD. I suggested it as a sideboard option. They can be vialed in. When I do get the cash I will build my RG goblins deck.

[kicks_422]

I'll be taking this list to a small tourney tomorrow (Me and my friends pooled our cards together to whip this up, and we decided I should be the one playing it in the tourney as I'm the best aggro player in the group)

4 Plateau
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB
4 Disenchant
4 Armageddon
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Tormod's Crypt

I was also thinking of adding Chalice of the Voids into the SB for additional game against combo, but is cutting Armageddon a good idea? I'll be facing lots of control in the tourney...

Also, is the number of fetchlands/duals too much?...

[throst54]

Well, the fetchland count is fine, however generally you want your fetchland count + dual count in goblins to equal 10 or 11.

So you can turn some of those Plateaus into mountains.

I'd probably only play 3 StP mainboard.

Some people may argue to only run 3 ports as well.

[Bane of the Living]

Ok, this is The Source so I figured I'd ask; is there any procedure for banning the guy that in two posts suggests adding unicorns and slivers to a highly-tuned goblin deck?


Thats fuckin funny.

I didnt play with Geddon either but now that Rabit Wombat and Rifter are taking a back seat I dont think they shine nearly as much.

Ib is amazing against Thresh. He lets every goblin in the deck trade with a threshed bear or goose. He doesnt target the creatures. Making sure your gobs trade with these creatures makes the game turn out much differently. His ability to dump goblins into play via saccing mountains should never be underlooked. Ive vialed him out eot and sacced 4 mountains to make 4 more gobs for my next attack phase. That effectively adds 17 more damage when attacking with Piledriver. All that and your dudes dont die eot incase something goes wrong. Thats way better than Pyromancer.

[throst54]

That effectively adds 17 more damage when attacking with Piledriver. All that and your dudes dont die eot incase something goes wrong. Thats way better than Pyromancer.

Though pyromancer lets you alpha strike when you dont have Piledriver, which is where I think the biggest difference lies.

[Ninj4]

i was under the impression that you had to sacrifice your goblins before they dealt combat dmg when you had Ib out.

on the other hand though, they can't get jitte counters while blocking. w00t?

[kicks_422]

Back from the tourney, and I came in first at 5-2. It was a very balanced field, with all the T8 with 2 losses each. I didn't have notes for each game, but I lost my first two games against Nausea (interesting build, only BR) and then to a modified version of KobeLoam. They told me I had to win all the rest of my games to stay in, and I did beating UWR Landstill, RGSA, Affinity, UB Control, and Dryad Sligh in the finals.

I never needed Armageddon, so I'd replace that with Chalices in the SB. 4 Swords was a huge boon, but only 2 basics wrecked me in my match against KobeLoam.

Loam-based decks are a huge uphill climb. What to board in against it? Are Crypts enough?

[Bane of the Living]

Loam-based decks are a huge uphill climb. What to board in against it? Are Crypts enough?

Pyrostatic Pillar > LftL

CotV@2 > LftL

Leyline of the Void > LftL

Those are the cards I never wanna see when Im slingin a land deck around, in no particular order. Leyline is the worst.

[Cait_Sith]

In my Vial Goblins I seem to have traded silver bullets for shear consistency. Good for vial, bad for wacky situations.

4 Rishadan Port
2 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
8 Mountains

4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tin Street Hooligan <--- This guy can be serious tech
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Goblin Sharpshooter (Although I am tempted to turn 1 of these dudes into Ib)
4 Aether Vial
4 Umezawa's Jitte

[kicks_422]

Is 4 Jitte really necessary?... How has it been doing for you?

I also have dropped the silver bullets strategy since I shifted to the white splash, and rely on "wacky" situations to be handled by the SB... I'm deliberating on shifting to green as Krosan Grip is a really strong card for Vial Goblins, but I might miss the awesome removal that is StP.

[Bane of the Living]

In my Vial Goblins I seem to have traded silver bullets for shear consistency. Good for vial, bad for wacky situations.

4 Rishadan Port
2 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
8 Mountains

4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tin Street Hooligan <--- This guy can be serious tech
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Goblin Sharpshooter (Although I am tempted to turn 1 of these dudes into Ib)
4 Aether Vial
4 Umezawa's Jitte

Where is Gempalm Incinerator? Cutting tutorable, uncounterable, cantripping removal is NOT improving consistancy. I wouldnt be playing 4 Hooligans with 4 Jittes either, thats asking for some shitty consistancy. What the hell is going on in this thread?

Play Grip, its the best card in TS.

[Cait_Sith]

I think you happened to this thread. Your rude and disrespectful manner is unappealing at best.

I changed it to -2 Wasteland for +2 Skarrg and -1 Jitte and -1 Sharpshooter for +2 Incinerator.

[Eldariel]

I'd take out at least 1 more Tinman for another Inman. Incinerators are just plain nuts and if you don't run enough of 'em, you're seriously harming your Lackey-connection percentage, not to mention your midgame removal alternatives and your ability to chain Incinerators to take out huge dudes (like X/4s).

Also, before Skarrgs, I'd play a single Pendelhaven, seeing that 2/3 1-drops are pretty broken.

[Mulletus]

I have goblins built... but it's mono red. I unfortunately donty have the time to serach through 1k+ posts to find a good sideboard with no color splash.

So far:
3 R.E.B.
3 Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Gob King
XXXXXX

I am considering going suicide with those last slots... Disks. If I'm not splashing a color to handle enchantments and any other Goblin hosers... I think I need something. Or should I put in an alternate win condition all together. Maybe I should just go to 4 of the main 3 and keep the Kings as my anti-engineered plague. What did Sonne have... Clickslithers?

[Phantom]

So far:
3 R.E.B.
3 Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Gob King
XXXXXX

I am considering going suicide with those last slots... Disks. If I'm not splashing a color to handle enchantments and any other Goblin hosers... I think I need something. Or should I put in an alternate win condition all together. Maybe I should just go to 4 of the main 3 and keep the Kings as my anti-engineered plague. What did Sonne have... Clickslithers?


Why three Goblin Kings exactly? One is enough with 4 matrons and if they get out 2 Plagues you're screwed anyway. Also, I think you're missing the beauty of mono red. It let's you run 4 Ports and Wastes and let those be your answer to hate as opposed to wasting sideboard slots. Your board slots should be dedicated to your bad matchups like combo. something like this would be my reccomendation:


4 Tormod's Crypt (IGGY, Thresh, Reanimator, Salvagers and all that jazz)
4 Pyrostatic Pillar (combo)
3 Pyrokinesis (Aggro)
4 Red Elemental Blast (Blue)

and just fit the one Goblin King in the main (also, make sure you have at least one Tinkerer in the main).

[Bane of the Living]

I have goblins built... but it's mono red. I unfortunately donty have the time to serach through 1k+ posts to find a good sideboard with no color splash.

So far:
3 R.E.B.
3 Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Gob King
XXXXXX

I am considering going suicide with those last slots... Disks. If I'm not splashing a color to handle enchantments and any other Goblin hosers... I think I need something. Or should I put in an alternate win condition all together. Maybe I should just go to 4 of the main 3 and keep the Kings as my anti-engineered plague. What did Sonne have... Clickslithers?

Im kinda sure he used Patron of the Akki. I found some success with him. Especially when you play him in response to removal aimed at a gob. Too bad he cant be tutored.

[Eldariel]

Yea, Sonne used Patron off a 3-caster or 4-caster Goblin to counteract Plague. Goblin Goon is a decent counter to Plague too, since a 4/4 is plenty big to beat them up. And yea, IBA's suggestion of Word of Seizing has some credit especially in a mono-red Tomb-build to counter non-Plague hate, like Jittes and whatnot.

[eA-Zaku]

Hi, I wanted to replace my lone Goblin King with Patron of the Akki, because from what I've seen and heard, I think I want to run the Patron more, but how do you reliably get it into play? A lone copy is nearly impossible to find without tutoring, so how can you rely on it at all?

This is my list:

2 Plateau
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

4 Aether Vial

[Bane of the Living]

Hi, I wanted to replace my lone Goblin King with Patron of the Akki, because from what I've seen and heard, I think I want to run the Patron more, but how do you reliably get it into play? A lone copy is nearly impossible to find without tutoring, so how can you rely on it at all?

This is my list:

2 Plateau
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

4 Aether Vial

Add more copies. Duh? Welcome to the source. Whats your meta like? Where is your board?

[Eldariel]

Hi, I wanted to replace my lone Goblin King with Patron of the Akki, because from what I've seen and heard, I think I want to run the Patron more, but how do you reliably get it into play? A lone copy is nearly impossible to find without tutoring, so how can you rely on it at all?

This is my list:

2 Plateau
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire

4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

4 Aether Vial

Indeed you can't. That's why it's a sideboard-card that you don't really rely on, but which is a really nice option to have. In your build though, I'd rather play Pyromancer since he tends to end games much faster than King, allowing 4 Goblins to take the opponent from ~18 (depending on whether they're Fanatics/2/2s or 1/1s) to 0 in a turn.

[eA-Zaku]

I see, thanks! Multiple Patrons actually sounds like a turn off for me. And now that I think about it, Goblin Pyromancer is actually a decent choice. Tutorable, can help swing games in your favor as opposed to being win-more, and you can recover afterwards with Vials and Lackeys in case you failed to win. The only problem is I'm still weak against Engineered Plague that Patron and Goblin King helped to fix (but I only expect to see Plague played by friends in casual matches and less experienced players). Maybe I will add Leave No Trace to my sideboard. Also I was hoping that 4 Wasteland 4 Rishadan Port messing with their lands is good enough to stop multiple Plagues from hitting the board, but I don't want to rely on that and then get thrashed when it fails.

My sideboard is dependent on whatever happens to be in the meta, and I'm still trying to nail it down. I'm also looking into travelling to attend sanctioned events for Legacy, since I'm pretty out-of-ways.

Basically my sideboard consists of these cards; fifteen chosen for what I expect to see:

3-4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Disenchant/4 Ronom Unicorn/4 Kami of Ancient Law/4 Leave No Trace
4 Serenity/3 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Armageddon

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast

4 Tormod's Crypt

3-4 Pyrokinesis
1 Sparksmith
1 Goblin Sledder
1 Goblin Prospector
1 Kikki-Jikki, Mirror Breaker
1 Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician
? Patron of the Akki
1-2 Goblin Pyromancer

Currently I'm trying to playtest combo so my sideboard is

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Pyrostatic Pillar

[Kilz88]

I am trying many decks leading to The Mana Leak Open on the 17th of this month and would like to get some user feedback. Here is a goblin build I believe to be optimal:

MAIN
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warcheif
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror-Breaker
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin King
1 Ib, Goblin Halfheart

4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte

5 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Plateau

BOARD
4 Phyrexian Furnace
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Disenchant
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

I have found furnace to be better than all the others options that do the same thing like leyline and crypt. Pillar does the job against the decks I need it to as well as splash damage for some rogue stuff. Swords has been cut due to jitte, kinesis, and Ib. I moved sharpshooter because I decided I wanted tinkerer when I matroned more often than sharpshooter. If I dont want either then the tinkerer is a cheaper goblin to commit to Piledriver , Ib, or Siege-Gang. Which brings me to the 3 gempalms. A lot of people have used 4 but he is NOT good for 3 mana. I do not like paying three for him to add to the piledriver/Ib/siege cause. His cycling ability is good but with jitte and Ib the removal gets kind of redundant. I often find myself cycling him just for the trip so more than three is a major "Ick". Finally, king is good, kiki is good, and 2 siege brings the goblins that cost 5 up to 3 and that is plenty. Ib can make a bunch of gobs too.
Well, lets hear it...

[Bane of the Living]

Phyrexian Furnace blows. All the decks whose yards you need to hit all at once will crush you, its not like everyone's just playing Squee, Eternal Dragon, or Nether Spirit. Top decking a critical furnace against threshold wont do anything,if it had been a crypt however..

I know a early furnace could be ok against thresh but they can still drop Pithing Needle on it.

[Kilz88]

Phyrexian Furnace blows. All the decks whose yards you need to hit all at once will crush you, its not like everyone's just playing Squee, Eternal Dragon, or Nether Spirit. Top decking a critical furnace against threshold wont do anything,if it had been a crypt however..

I know a early furnace could be ok against thresh but they can still drop Pithing Needle on it.

So you said, "all those decks whose graves I need to hit all at once". What you meant was threshold. It is the only deck. Furnace is great against sal game and iggy so you were refering to thresh. I dont know about you but, since when does goblins worry about threshold? Goblins is thresh's worst match-up and quite frankly I probably wouldnt even side in the furnaces against it. I would just play my deck as is and beat them. So as soon as I decide that threshold is a bad match-up for goblins then this may be relavent. Until then against sal the furnace can get LED and against Iggy and can get Ill-gotten gains, among other things. Not to mention it replaces it self when crypt does not. I am not even going to begin on leyline. It is terrible.

[Jak]

To get this thread back up and running, I wanted to post my RG build. I really would like to keep the mana denial, but running that few mountains seems risky for me. Should I just go for the full 4 wastelands and 4 ports? Also what about taking 1 taiga out and running 1 forest? Wasteland is prevelant in my area. What about the 2 Ibs? They help out a lot to kill arrogant wurms and werebears or other random 4/4's or lower, but should I run 2 or 1? Has anybody had experience with him? 2 tin man seems good for vial and stuff, but with grips in the board, is one the better option? Anyway, here's my list.

Lands
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wooded Foothills
8 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga

Creatures
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Tin Street Hooligan
2 Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician

Spells
4 AEther Vial

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyroblast
4 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

My sideboard has been good, but I need some help the mirror. Are needles needed? They haven't helped me in my testing only on stuff like madness, but if I added pyrokinesis, I could take care of them then. PLease help me. I have a lot of questions about the little things that need tweaking. Thanks in advance.

[Eldariel]

This build was more of an exercise to see how many mana cards one can actually play, than anything else. Funnily enough, I did have a draw where I saw no more than 2 manacards (including lands, Vials, Moxes and Lackeys) in any hand during a mull to 3. That was on MWS though, so take it for what it's worth. Anyhow, weirdness:

Lands
11 Mountain
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Dust Bowl

Creatures
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Pyromancer
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Goblin Goon

Spells
3 Chrome Mox
4 AEther Vial


Sideboard
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyrokinesis
2 Patron of the Akki


So yea, 22 lands+3 Moxes total, still only totalling at 14 red sources (yea, it might be low, but whatever, I usually don't cast Warchiefs early anyways), but more importantly, a full 9 pieces of LD (I played against 43 lands.dec and left him without any lands in play as I slowly pounded him to death with a Mogg Fanatic and Goblin Tinkerer. LD was courtesy of Dust Bowl, Ancient Tomb, and whatever I drew) and 2 Tombs to accelerate stuff (like Dust Bowl, or Ringleader, or SGC, or Matron, or...you get the point) and 3 Moxes to go turn 1 Mountain-Mox-Lackey-Lackey-go (and since I've noticed that Goblins are very adept at making up for lost cards so I figured, they're naturally at home here).

Speaking of which, I never really found myself drawing too much lands and had practically always something to do with my mana (except with one hand I shoulda mulliganed, that constituted of 4 Mountains, a Lackey, a Piledriver and a Fanatic. Yeah, the Piledriver died and that's all she wrote), so just reinforcing the point that Goblins definately seem to be able to afford more lands than they presently play. I also ended up playing against a dedicated LD-deck, which was lots of fun, since he ran out of lands before me in the crossfire. Then again, these were MWS-games so meh. The Goblin Goon never really came up, but it feels like a card one could even play more of, since against decks like Thres, you tend to have more dudes, and it's basically always able to attack into their board; you're happy to trade it for 2 Gooses, Bears can't really doubleblock it if you have 4 Goblins (or 3, one of which is a Fanatic) since an Incin wipes their board at that point, and it's always nice to trade one Goblin for an Enforcer or a Red Dragon. Just some ideas for people to try out. On another note, I really like Tin Street Hooligans (as Gobbo-player, hate 'em as FS-player), too bad I'm playing mono-red.

[Bane of the Living]

To get this thread back up and running, I wanted to post my RG build. I really would like to keep the mana denial, but running that few mountains seems risky for me. Should I just go for the full 4 wastelands and 4 ports? Also what about taking 1 taiga out and running 1 forest? Wasteland is prevelant in my area. What about the 2 Ibs? They help out a lot to kill arrogant wurms and werebears or other random 4/4's or lower, but should I run 2 or 1? Has anybody had experience with him? 2 tin man seems good for vial and stuff, but with grips in the board, is one the better option? Anyway, here's my list.

Lands
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wooded Foothills
8 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga

Creatures
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Tin Street Hooligan
2 Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician

Spells
4 AEther Vial

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyroblast
4 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

My sideboard has been good, but I need some help the mirror. Are needles needed? They haven't helped me in my testing only on stuff like madness, but if I added pyrokinesis, I could take care of them then. PLease help me. I have a lot of questions about the little things that need tweaking. Thanks in advance.

R/G Gobs is a force to be reckoned with. Your build is close to mine. For easy reference here is the list I played into top 4 this sunday.

3 Mire
4 Foothills
4 Mountain
3 Rishadin Port
4 Wasteland
4 Taiga

2 Fanatic
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
2 Hooligan
4 Matron
4 Warchief
4 Gempalm
4 Ringleader
2 SGC
1 Ib

3 Rancor
4 Aether Vial

SB
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Krosan Grip
1 Jitte
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin King

Just to start things off, Rancor was the monster I expected it to be. Goblins normally fights through alot of hate, and I battled alot of hate through my matches where Rancor won the attrition wars.

Round 1 John, playing Mishra/Slaver/Myr Retriever/Reanimater combo
I tool him round one. I open with Lackey turn one all 3 games. Rancor helps him trigger through a blocker. He plays Lotus Petal, Ritual, Greater Harvester. I block, block, he sacs stuff, sacs him, I win. Game 2 he plays turn one Swamp, Lotus Petal, Ritual, Avatar of Discord, Reanimate Akroma. I lose. Random? I win game three kinda easy.

Round 2 Chris, playing Clerics
This is a deck full of Clerics like Maytr of Sands, Soltari Priest, and that Cleric that lets you tap a cleric to prevent 2 damage. Game one I drop turn one lackey. Turn two I play fanatic and kill his blocker, I rancor lackey and swing, drop 2 more lackeys off him. Turn three I play Piledriver, Rancor him turn 4 and win. Piledriver with rancor is gg.
Game 2 He plays turn one E Tutor for Engineered Plague and plays a Mox turn two to cast it. Random again. He gets mana screwed and I tie up his remaining lands while killing him with 2/2 bodies and drivers.

Round 3 Dude, playing R/W burn control.
This matchup I go into expecting to lose. He went to time in the last round so I knew it would be an attrition war. I open crazy all over his face and he resets the board twice with Clasm and Wrath but I keep going with Ringleaders. He drops Cursed Scroll and Ensnaring Bridge and starts throwing burn and scroll damage at gobs. I ekk through damage with 1/1's from seige and Ib. I eventually get Tin Street and break his Bridge. I push through the last bits of damage with Rancor. He doesnt sideboard a single card and claims he has a 90% win ratio against me. I side in Krosan Grips and Chalice of the Void. I drop early CotV@1 and beat him to death after a long battle through WoG's and Goblins Trenches.

Round 4 Angel of Despair, playing White Thresh.
I make top 4 and get paired against my gf, we decide to play it out.
Game one she beats me to death. Game 2 she was at one mana the whole game. My sb hate of Chalice is too much. Game 3 I keep a hand with one Mountain, 2 Goblin Lackeys, 1 Piledriver, 1 Warchief, 2 Siegegang. She FoW's the first lackey, BEB's the second, and I dont see another land for 3 turns. I eventually get another and drop Piledriver, it gets Swordzd. I play another still at 3 land, then Warchief, but Im too late and I die. She plays for finals.

[Jak]

Dude, nice report. I really like the rancors main. I will have to try that out. Why in the board did you have only one pyrokinesis and jitte? I don't see you drawing any of them. But other than that I like your list. I have been working on mine and I went to 2 hooligans main and cut an Ib. I took the needles out of my board and put in an Ib for thresh and another sharpshooter. With 2 shooters out it can win the mirror. Just tutor one up and bam. What do you guys think?

Lands
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
5 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga

Creatures
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician

Spells
4 AEther Vial

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyroblast
4 Krosan Grip
1 Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician
2 Goblin Sharpshooter

[Bane of the Living]

I only had one Jitte because its all I could Muster before the tourny. I only own one Pyro currently. I wouldve drew them in a couple cases against the white decks but Ringleader shuffled em away. Not an optimal sb by any means, its just what I had.

Keeping Ib as a one of is nice, his ability to make gobs is so incredibly overlooked and it definitly won me 2 games I had no business winning.

Try the 'cors you'll love em, theyre so good against decks with lots of removal and thresh.

[b4r0n]

Bane: I notice that you don't run Goblin Pyromancer. He randomly wins games that seem unwinnable, and I would be very hesitant to cut him. Have you missed him at all? Also, I see both Pillar and Chalice in your board. Do you bring in both against combo (or are they meant for other matchups)? How do you usually board?

Just a general question to everyone: Does 22 lands feel like enough? It might just be me, but I feel like mana can be an issue when your Lackeys aren't connecting or your Vials are Needled. I've been thinking about either bumping the land count slightly or adding additional acceleration such as Chrome Mox. Has anyone tested this? Any thoughts?

[kicks_422]

Goblin Pyromancer is such a risk, and I feel that it just a win more card for the deck...

I also run both Chalice and Pillar in the SB... I side them in against combo, of course, but Chalice is also helpful against Burn and Loam variants...

I believe Eldariel has worked on a Goblin build with Ancient Tombs and Chrome Mox... For me though, 22 has been plenty, even while running 4 of each of Wastelands and Ports.

[Bane of the Living]

Bane: I notice that you don't run Goblin Pyromancer. He randomly wins games that seem unwinnable, and I would be very hesitant to cut him. Have you missed him at all? Also, I see both Pillar and Chalice in your board. Do you bring in both against combo (or are they meant for other matchups)? How do you usually board?

Just a general question to everyone: Does 22 lands feel like enough? It might just be me, but I feel like mana can be an issue when your Lackeys aren't connecting or your Vials are Needled. I've been thinking about either bumping the land count slightly or adding additional acceleration such as Chrome Mox. Has anyone tested this? Any thoughts?

I cut Pyromancer for Ib. This was ultimately a good decision because more people in my meta are packing Stifle, which will lose you the game if aimed at Pyro. I also found him dead alot because Id draw into him at bad times such as top decking. Ib can also create a retarded amount of damage when you commit to his second ability. Finding yourself with 2-4 lands to sac eot pushes through alot of damage even without Warchief on your side. If you have a driver in play its really +2 more damage for each guy you make, giving you virtually as much damage boost that Pyromancer does without the threat of losing your team eot. That means Ib doesnt have to be used as an alpha strike but rather another hard working gob that helps you reach your 20 damage over time. Each of the little bastards he makes can also carry Rancor, which gave him the nod in my build. Lets not bother to get into what he does against thresh.

I board Pillar and CotV both against combo and usually both against thresh. REB has no synergy with CotV and both of the aforementioned are permanent threats rather than temporary.

When boarding in CotV I swap out 2 Mogg Fanatic and 2 Rancor. Lackey and Vial can stay because of their high threat density despite the fact they clash with CotV@1. You should be emptying your 1cc threats before playing Chalice anyways. To bait counter magic and use CotV as a finisher. When bringing in Pillar as well, I take out the remaining Rancor and usually Gempalms vs Combo or a couple Ringleader vs else.

I find 22 to be enough lands. My meta is light on Wastelands and my build has a low curve.

[My Name Is Scott]

I cut Pyromancer for Ib. This was ultimately a good decision because more people in my meta are packing Stifle, which will lose you the game if aimed at Pyro.
I haven't tested anything new in goblins in forever, but I'd be damn happy if someone was saving a stifle for goblin pyromancer.

[Eldariel]

I board Pillar and CotV both against combo and usually both against thresh. REB has no synergy with CotV and both of the aforementioned are permanent threats rather than temporary.

When boarding in CotV I swap out 2 Mogg Fanatic and 2 Rancor. Lackey and Vial can stay because of their high threat density despite the fact they clash with CotV@1. You should be emptying your 1cc threats before playing Chalice anyways. To bait counter magic and use CotV as a finisher. When bringing in Pillar as well, I take out the remaining Rancor and usually Gempalms vs Combo or a couple Ringleader vs else.

I don't think, the fact that Chalice at 1 bans REB doesn't hurt. 8 2-caster hosers seems weaker than 4 1-CC and 4 2-CC ones. REB can be used to force Chalice through, if you have Pillar and Chalice, you might just face two Remands and end up unable to do anything about the Solidarity-player.

[Bane of the Living]

I don't think, the fact that Chalice at 1 bans REB doesn't hurt. 8 2-caster hosers seems weaker than 4 1-CC and 4 2-CC ones. REB can be used to force Chalice through, if you have Pillar and Chalice, you might just face two Remands and end up unable to do anything about the Solidarity-player.

Ive got enough for Solidarity to worry about at the one mana marker, Vial and Lackey are both great. I hear what your saying about forcing through a chalice but I havent had a problem with this configuration yet. Also pillar is stellar against Thresh whereas reb is mediocre, the case is the same against Salvager. If you have alot of Solidarity in your meta you might want to go with REB instead but I like the fact you cant vial out lackey if your game goes turn one vial, turn two chalice. How has your testing with Ancient Tomb been? I'd like to see the affects it has on the deck but Ive not had my fill of Rancor quite yet.

[Bongo]

Just a general question to everyone: Does 22 lands feel like enough?

22 Lands are not enough. I'm running 24, which I think is the absolute minimum, especially when running the full set of Wasteland/Port.

8 Fetch
8 Mountain
4 Port
4 Waste

I'm absolutely happy with this manabase. Even when you're flooded, one Matron/Ringleader/SGC is all you need to get some action going.


Different question: Is anybody running the "The Goonies Plan" in the sideboard?
The Goonies are good at dodging hate and make a decent sideboard card against Thresh, Solidarity and Deadguy. Thoughts?

[Volt]

22 lands seems to be plenty. I run the following:

4 Rishadan Ports
4 Wastelands
14 Mountains

No fetchlands. I don't understand the point of them in a mono-red build. Can someone explain it to me? And don't say deck-thinning; that's crap.

[Citrus-God]

22 lands seems to be plenty. I run the following:

4 Rishadan Ports
4 Wastelands
14 Mountains

No fetchlands. I don't understand the point of them in a mono-red build. Can someone explain it to me? And don't say deck-thinning; that's crap.

Actually, it is deck thinning. It maximizes the your topdeck capibility. It's good against decks like Threshold which tends to deprive you from anything important unless your both out of fuel, so you have to topdeck better than Thresh to win. Also, it thins your deck more so you can find those clucked Disenchants/Goblins and Matrons/Patron of the Akki to answer Plague.
Not running fetchlands in Goblins is like playing with 61 cards basically.

[Solpugid]

But if you're playing against an opponent with stifle (or pithing needle) those fetches can be a liability. What I'm saying is, in an environment with landstill and/or fish, I could see a build without fetches being correct.

I personally run 3 stifles in Sb for threshold, and side them in against goblins. Occasionally I'll hit their first land-drop with one. That's not a good start for them.

I suppose until stifle sees more play running fetches is ok, but I personally would not run them just in case I lose with a great hand just because I can't use my lands. But then again, I don't play goblins.

[Bongo]

22 Land with only 14 red sources is asking for trouble.

You don't want to miss a land-drop in your first 4 turns (preferrably 5), and you need 24 lands minimum to do that.
14 red sources is too low to reliably cast Warchief in the early game. Vial Goblins is extremely mana-hungry, and it needs every RED mana it can get. In my testing, I hated it when I couldn't cast all the Goblins in my hand because I didn't have enough red mana.
Even if you're flooded, you can Waste/Port to make effective use of your mana. Like previously said, a single Matron or Ringleader or SGC make mana-flood a good thing.

Fetches are debatable. While their impact on a single draw is marginal, you'll really feel the thinning effect when you cast Ringleader, let alone multiples. You also want to decrease the chance of drawing land in the late-game.

While Stifle and Pithing Needle can target your Fetches, it's usually better to Needle Vials/SGC and Stifle Ringleaders, so I don't think that's a compelling argument.

[etrigan]

I'm sorry if these questions have been discussed already, but 1k posts is too much to look through. I'm also sorry for sidetracking the current discussion.

Why do I never see more than 1 color splashed? Is it because it makes the mana base too vulnerable to Wasteland? Is it because splashing G or W already give the deck Enchantment removal? Or something else I'm missing?

Secondly, has Volrath's Stronghold been tested? Seems like it could be strong in the mirror, providing it doesn't get Wasted.

[Jak]

With just one splash your mana base becomes very vulnerable if you want to be keeping the mana disruption. There would also not be a great benefit in splashing 2 colors. Like StP and Krosan grip? Just to have more removal and uncounterability is not worth the weak mana base and loss of disruption.

Volrath's Stronghold would be good if it were in different colors because black is not that great of a splashing color. Most people will splash to get the enchantment removal and black does not have that.

Mono red has probably the best mana base because it can run more red mana sources and keep the strong mana disruption going. In certain metas without pesky enchantments like plague, worship, and confinement it is easily the best way to go.

[Bongo]

Different question: Is anybody running the "The Goonies Plan" in the sideboard?
The Goonies are good at dodging hate and make a decent sideboard card against Thresh, Solidarity and Deadguy. Thoughts?


Sorry to quote myself, but I'd like to have some answer concerning this particular sideboard plan.
So far, Goons have been quite good against any form of control, Thresh, Deadguy, Solidarity and other creature light decks.

Am I the only one running Goons?

[Bane of the Living]

I actually like goons alot. I played them in my mono red build but then started switching off for Patron of the Akki. He proved better as a suprise gob tactic because he didnt need warchief to be good and you could beat ass with just him out. He gives your 2 toughness gobs more muscle in the red zone and makes it able to win through e plauge. Goons are nice, but patron is better. The ability to pick up goon of matron/leader is cool but hes not as good as instant speed patron. Casting him off a dying gob is brutal.

Im switching to a new build of goblins, vial bores me.

[Bongo]

Patron is better than Goon if you draw it, but that's a pretty big if.

So far, Goon was Matroned/Ringleadered out pretty frequently. The tutoring and drawing makes it easier to find a second copy should the first get handled. I suspect that the pure synergy being a Goblin makes Goon a better choice than Patron.
Ever revealed a Patron with Ringleader when you needed it? That sucks big-time.


Vial bores you? It's the card that allows you to do the most tricks. I'm very interested in your new build.

[Happy Gilmore]

Has anyone been testing the new War Mashal card from Timespiral? I cant help but think that at 2cc, it might finnaly provide the part of the curve this deck has always been missing. Not to mention the strength with Piledriver alone. What would a list running atleast 3 of them look like? Has any testing been done at this point?

[freakish777]

Goblin-O-War

1R

Creature - Goblin Warrior

When Goblin-o'-War comes into play, return target creature an opponent controls to its owner's hand.

Echo 3R

2/2



I'm aware this is by and large trash, however, it could provide some tempo in some match-ups where it might need it (particularly against decks of the "X Stompy" variety). Having Warchief make it cost 1 and have Haste seems decent, and barring that, an endstep Vial activation and then actually paying 4 doesn't seem entirely unreasonable (though it does border on it). Man-O-War was pretty good, but how good does it become in the right color and as a Goblin when more appropriately costed?

[Eldariel]

Goblin-O-War

1R

Creature - Goblin Warrior

When Goblin-o'-War comes into play, return target creature an opponent controls to its owner's hand.

Echo 3R

2/2



I'm aware this is by and large trash, however, it could provide some tempo in some match-ups where it might need it (particularly against decks of the "X Stompy" variety). Having Warchief make it cost 1 and have Haste seems decent, and barring that, an endstep Vial activation and then actually paying 4 doesn't seem entirely unreasonable (though it does border on it). Man-O-War was pretty good, but how good does it become in the right color and as a Goblin when more appropriately costed?

I can't pass a verdict on this card (other than 'unlikely'), but just remember that you can also use it on your own creatures to reuse Matrons, Ringleaders and Siege-Gang Commanders, as well as to turn hardcast Incins into removal, so it could be rather strong in a midgame position. Still, doesn't let Lackey through any better than anything else in the deck (save against 2/2s).

[Bane of the Living]

That card looks ridiculously strong, even as a one of, the utility he can provide is astonishing. Being able to vial out bounce is what really catches me. Removing Piledrivers blockers seems like a boost as well. And to think we havent even given war marshall much love yet. Hes great too, especially if playing with Skirk Prospector. I love these new goblins!

[Lego]

I'm confused... this guy doesn't exist, right? Is there some new spoiler I've missed, or have I really been ignoring Time Spiral? He seems pretty good.

EDIT: Sorry, I found him. They hadn't added the partial spoiler to the spoiler page. Sorry

[outsideangel]

Here's a list I've been playing around with for awhile. It's still a bit early in testing to tell if it's signifigantly better or signifigantly worse than the current standard builds, but I thought it was worth tossing out there anyway, as an object of speculation, at least.

Big Joblins

4 Mountain
4 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Goblin Burrows
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Tinkerer

4 Aether Vial
4 Seething Song

Sideboard
4 Krosan Grip
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Defense Grid
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Sparksmith
1 Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician
1 Goblin King


Basically, the idea is to maximize the combo-control element of Goblins, at the expense of some of the aggro elements and the toolboxy one-ofs. Seige-Gang Commander just straight up wins games, and I hear that turn 3 Ringleaders aren't too shabby either.

Seething Song is probably the most unusual looking choice. I played around with Chrome Mox for awhile, but found that having to pitch a threat hurt more than I thought it would, and that I only really wanted the acceleration for a turn or two anyway. It was either Seething Song or Rite of Flame, and Song produces the magic number (5) to drop Siege-Gang, and is also playable off Mountain + Tomb, meaning you can theoretically see him in play as early as turn two, even without a Lackey. Of course, barring the Siege-Gang, you can do some other crazy stuff turn 2-3, like Song -> Warchief -> Piledriver -> Lackey, swing for 8 and get a free Goblin. Even Song -> Warchief -> Matron to set up the Ringleader for next turn is some good. It definitely doesn't look amazing or anything, but so far I've liked the little boost that Seething Song gives you. Of course, if you want to do some combo-esque nonsense, you can just hold on the Seething Song and use it to drop some crazy Warchief + Piledriver + lots of Goblins action and just win.

[Marco]

I can't pass a verdict on this card (other than 'unlikely'), but just remember that you can also use it on your own creatures to reuse Matrons, Ringleaders and Siege-Gang Commanders, as well as to turn hardcast Incins into removal, so it could be rather strong in a midgame position. Still, doesn't let Lackey through any better than anything else in the deck (save against 2/2s).

Actually, and sadly, you can't use it on your own creatures... "When Goblin-o'-War comes into play, return target creature an opponent controls to its owner's hand."

Even still I like this card, maybe even for other formats. Goblins was always looking for a way to deal with Darksteel Colossus...

[freakish777]

Yeah, if it allowed you to get one of your own creatures I would nearly immediately say it's playable as a 1-of is it would allow you to replay Ringleader/Matron that found it.

However, it's current wording ensures that it isn't completely useless against non-aggro deck (with attention to other formats given a little more focus)

[264505]

Quick Question. What splash is the best overall, white or green? Im in the process of building the deck and I would like an idea before I go out and get the wrong duals.

[Volt]

Quick Question. What splash is the best overall, white or green? Im in the process of building the deck and I would like an idea before I go out and get the wrong duals.


The best splash is none at all, imho. If you must, though, go with white.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The Green splash, for Hooligan if nothing else, against deck running Needles and Equipment, the Black splash for combo, and possibly the Red splash for the mirror. Although if you're running the Black, Tsabo's Decree could be an "I win" card if you get to six mana, which shouldn't be too hard most of the time in that matchup.

[Eldariel]

If you want either, I'd go with green. Tin Street Hooligan is nuts, Krosan Grip is rock-solid and it sounds like Bane of the Living has been having lots of success with Rancor (which is understandable, as no matter how non-Goblin it is, it keeps coming back and it makes 1/1s huge threats and gets damage through just about any turn 1 blocker with Lackey and makes Piledriver able to get through). Then there's the whole Pendelhaven going on too. Damn, I'm so off to build Rg Goblins right now.

[Bane of the Living]

If you want either, I'd go with green. Tin Street Hooligan is nuts, Krosan Grip is rock-solid and it sounds like Bane of the Living has been having lots of success with Rancor (which is understandable, as no matter how non-Goblin it is, it keeps coming back and it makes 1/1s huge threats and gets damage through just about any turn 1 blocker with Lackey and makes Piledriver able to get through). Then there's the whole Pendelhaven going on too. Damn, I'm so off to build Rg Goblins right now.

Yea I really like green for the Stompy and mirror heavy metas. Rancor is better than stp maindeck as well since your not drawing dead cards against combo.

I think its interesting other people are trying Seething Song and going for the combo win. Im trying for the Warrens version of gobs right now its looking quite promising.

[Eldariel]

Yea I really like green for the Stompy and mirror heavy metas. Rancor is better than stp maindeck as well since your not drawing dead cards against combo.

I think its interesting other people are trying Seething Song and going for the combo win. Im trying for the Warrens version of gobs right now its looking quite promising.

Rite definitely seems like the superior Ritual in Goblins (over Seething Song). But yea, I've witnessed the power of Ritual Goblins in Extended (I wanted to give Goblins a go in Extended but since Vial was banned, Ritual Goblins were really the only way to go) and it can be really explosive. The early kills aren't consistent, but they're more consistent than the kills in Vial Goblins. Out of Legacy-cardpool, it gets Lackeys and that adds some non-Empty the Warrens-related busted starts like turn 1 Rite-Rite-Lackey-Warchief-swing. Also, having multiple early Lackeys (either through Rite-Lackey-Lackey or Mox-Lackey-Lackey) is just GG right there against anything running creatures as there's basically no deck in the format capable of removing two creatures turn 1 (or at least it'll require FoW+removal spell). It won't happen often, but it can pull you through those difficult MUs. Also, having the chance of killing turn 1-2 makes combo-decks at least need to fear your God-draws. Obvious downside in all this is losing the ability to run Chalice against Solidarity.

My only problem with Rancor is that I need green mana to cast it and it's rather easy to cut someone off sorcery-speed green mana in the mirror. Btw, I just tested the deck and really missed my lands 24 and 25 (I played 23 lands to fit some Rancors with the Goblins). My Lackeys connected in exactly one game, so whenever I couldn't find a Vial and was forced to hardcast my spells, I just got outpaced by other decks. Note to self, tapping out to get a 2/2 on turn 4 is not a winning strategy against beatdown.

[Clark Kant]

I notice that very few builds seem to run Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast.

Does Propaganda slow you down by a few turns?

[264505]

REB/pyroblast is a really good card for thresh/solidarity. Countering draw and counterspells slows down both decks and can even force a land screw.

[Jak]

I have been playing with the green splash for a while and I loved tin-street and krosan grip. But I have been having a lot of problems with the mana base. I feel it is just way unstable. In a lot of games I can never get red with only 8 lands that actually tap for it and so I tried bumping it up. I had to cut some mana denial pieces which was hard, and found that was very bad. So I decided to go back to mono red. I was thinking, what are the problem enchantments that people just have to splash for?

worship
solitary confinement
engineered plague
humility
moat

So with all those white enchantments, running anarchy would just work. It also stops other white decks like angel stompy. And goblin king can help out against plague. So do people stilll play mono? Is it still viable or is splashing a must?

[Eldariel]

I have been playing with the green splash for a while and I loved tin-street and krosan grip. But I have been having a lot of problems with the mana base. I feel it is just way unstable. In a lot of games I can never get red with only 8 lands that actually tap for it and so I tried bumping it up. I had to cut some mana denial pieces which was hard, and found that was very bad. So I decided to go back to mono red. I was thinking, what are the problem enchantments that people just have to splash for?

worship
solitary confinement
engineered plague
humility
moat

So with all those white enchantments, running anarchy would just work. It also stops other white decks like angel stompy. And goblin king can help out against plague. So do people stilll play mono? Is it still viable or is splashing a must?

Mono is very viable. It has the advantage of being immune to colourscrew in the mirror and with 8 mana denial lands, you can simply try and make sure that none of the white hate enchantments resolve. Goblin King is a horrible answer to Plague, as decks with Plague pack spot removal too and if there're 2 Plagues in play, Lightning Bolt on one of your Kings=Wrath of God. Patron of the Akki is better answer, although e.g. Machinus here managed to just manascrew RGb Survival-player by killing all the mana Elves and destroying his lands, keeping him under 2 mana all game.

But as for the splash, the number of coloured lands is the same. Some of them are just fetches. Anyway, that's why so many players have been going to 24 lands, dropping some other spells, that gives you more colour consistency and better chances to win without Vial or Lackey-cheat.

[Bovinious]

I have always ran red white, but I think im going to switch to monored, and here is my reasoning. The white splash only really gained me STP, and Disenchant sideboard. STP is a great card but it hasn't been coming in handy for me lately, and it doesn't seem all that worthwhile anymore. Disenchant is really not needed, in monored you can mainboard 3-4 tinkerers (I'm going with 3 but 4 is good too) which can deal with Vials and Needles repeatedly and in game 1, and can also deal with any other artifact you may face. As was stated before, Anarchy removes any enchantment that beats you except for Plague. Goblin King and Patron of the Akki are anwsers for Plague, mana denial, or them not drawing it. Also, it is possible to win through one Plague. I'd say that if you really like STP or are worried about Plague then run white, otherwise stick with monored for a stronger mana base, and the ability to run 4 Waste 4 Port.

[Eldariel]

I really find Rg potent right now. Rancor is the best MD 'removal'-card ever since it's a proactive card instead of a reactive one, so it's always good and it gets your Lackey through anything your opponent might drop turn 1 (save Kird Ape if you lack Wasteland), and midgame makes your Piledriver just win. It also allows any of your guys to attack into a Mongoose alone and all 2/X creatures and Fanatic to attack into Werebears. Oh, and it makes Humility far less intimidating. I definitely find it the best MD-non Gob right now. The only prob is that I could only fit two in since I run 24 lands (I turned one into Pendelhaven to sorta emulate Rancor for an additional way to make turn 1 Lackey more brutal) and 4 Vials (the realistic minimum in my opinion). I also cut to 3 Warchiefs (sure, he's great, but he's only good early on, my reasoning is that I'd rather have a Matron or a Ringleader), 3 Fanatics (he might be good, but out of the remaining Gobs, he has the least impact) and 2 SGCs (unfortunate, but he costs so much that I felt I could do it) to play 3 Tin Street Hooligans. That card really wins the mirror by just killing the opposing Vial and gaining you the Vial advantage. It also wins against other decks. Post-SB game against UWb Fish and he had double Silver Knight, Soltari Priest (eventually second before he died), double Jitte. I still won since he only got one swing with the first Jitte before I Hooliganed it, and the second died to Krosan Grip when he tried to equip. Then the pro-red guys were no match for the Vial-induced avalanche. I was playing around with the idea of 26 lands, 2 of which are Skarrg, the Rage Pits over Rancor, as it would double as a landdrop and serve to further increase the landcount.

I really think, the trickiest part in any Vial Goblin-build is the manabase, playing enough lands to live without a Vial while not making Ringleaders suck, and fitting all the non-basic effects you want while keeping the Mountain-count high, making the splash colour available as consistently as possible without making you die to Wasteland, etc. It's really the hardest, and most important, part in the construction of any Goblins-list.

[Bane of the Living]

I really find Rg potent right now. Rancor is the best MD 'removal'-card ever since it's a proactive card instead of a reactive one, so it's always good and it gets your Lackey through anything your opponent might drop turn 1 (save Kird Ape if you lack Wasteland), and midgame makes your Piledriver just win. It also allows any of your guys to attack into a Mongoose alone and all 2/X creatures and Fanatic to attack into Werebears. Oh, and it makes Humility far less intimidating. I definitely find it the best MD-non Gob right now. The only prob is that I could only fit two in since I run 24 lands (I turned one into Pendelhaven to sorta emulate Rancor for an additional way to make turn 1 Lackey more brutal) and 4 Vials (the realistic minimum in my opinion). I also cut to 3 Warchiefs (sure, he's great, but he's only good early on, my reasoning is that I'd rather have a Matron or a Ringleader), 3 Fanatics (he might be good, but out of the remaining Gobs, he has the least impact) and 2 SGCs (unfortunate, but he costs so much that I felt I could do it) to play 3 Tin Street Hooligans. That card really wins the mirror by just killing the opposing Vial and gaining you the Vial advantage. It also wins against other decks. Post-SB game against UWb Fish and he had double Silver Knight, Soltari Priest (eventually second before he died), double Jitte. I still won since he only got one swing with the first Jitte before I Hooliganed it, and the second died to Krosan Grip when he tried to equip. Then the pro-red guys were no match for the Vial-induced avalanche. I was playing around with the idea of 26 lands, 2 of which are Skarrg, the Rage Pits over Rancor, as it would double as a landdrop and serve to further increase the landcount.

I really think, the trickiest part in any Vial Goblin-build is the manabase, playing enough lands to live without a Vial while not making Ringleaders suck, and fitting all the non-basic effects you want while keeping the Mountain-count high, making the splash colour available as consistently as possible without making you die to Wasteland, etc. It's really the hardest, and most important, part in the construction of any Goblins-list.

Im glad your liking my list so much. I found it to be a real powerhouse against meta's you expect stompy varients in. The Tin Streets tear down equipment and Rancor pushes damage through guys like Serendib and pro red guys. As far as I can muster from your list Im running one less land, one less Tin Street, and Im playing one more Rancor and Warchief. Im only playing 2 Mogg Fanatics. His sac ability is less relavant with less people playing Survival and Deadguy, his aggro role is matched by Rancor's inclusion. I havent played with Pendlehaven yet, does it mess with your mana base? I was only playing the 4 Taiga's as green sources with 8 fetchies.

To anyone....

If you find yourself playing splash gobs mainly for the Disenchant effect go green. I dont miss StP at all, it didnt do much for the mirror and only helped to clear pro red dudes off the table. Krosan Grip has been printed, I standby my comment that it's the best card in TS. Whatever you needed to Disenchant can almost always wait one more turn, especially when Daze is in the format. You were normally waiting till you had 3 mana available against Thresh to nuke something, now you get your spell to resolve regardless. The ability to blow up vials in the mirror with Tin Street is game winning just like Eldariel said. Ive been in alot of situations where my Tinkerer couldnt come online before being killed because he didnt have haste, Tin Street cares not.

[Bovinious]

I guess that a green splash with 3 Rancors rather than a white splash with 3 STP could be good, however I think your other changes are negative. Goblin Warchief should definately be a 4 of, hes a must anwser for opponents and lets you pull crazy things with Matrons, 'drivers, and Ringleaders. Mogg Fanatic is one of the weaker cards in the deck, but he is an anwser to turn 1 Lackey and kills BoP which makes him good to have around if you see lots of survival or mirror. Most lists only play 2 Siege-Gang anyways so thats not so bad, but adding 3 Tin Street just seems janky to me, first off he doesn't kill an artifact when you have a Warchief out, maybe this is another reason you cut a 'chief, but I still feel this a mistake. I would much rather have Goblin Tinkerer MD than Hooligan, sure he takes one more turn to get online, but he doesnt require green mana, and can kill multiple Vials/Chalices/Tops etc. Tinkerer allows you to play monored and still have efficient artifact kill. I think I'd rather play Tinkerer in an Rg build with 4 'chiefs, if you want to go that route.

Rancor sounds like it could be a good idea with Lackey and 'driver, but I would strongly reconsider cutting a 'chief, and would consider Tinkerer as an option.

[Eldariel]

Im glad your liking my list so much. I found it to be a real powerhouse against meta's you expect stompy varients in. The Tin Streets tear down equipment and Rancor pushes damage through guys like Serendib and pro red guys. As far as I can muster from your list Im running one less land, one less Tin Street, and Im playing one more Rancor and Warchief. Im only playing 2 Mogg Fanatics. His sac ability is less relavant with less people playing Survival and Deadguy, his aggro role is matched by Rancor's inclusion. I havent played with Pendlehaven yet, does it mess with your mana base? I was only playing the 4 Taiga's as green sources with 8 fetchies.

I added it as a 24th land, so I haven't been having issues. I'd love to have 16 red sources, of course, but Wastelands, Ports and Haven all take priority (Haven because it took a Rancor-slot, so not playing Haven=losing one business slot and I can't drop any Goblins, since 30 is the absolute minimum, I won't go under for Ringleader purposes. I find that quite low already, I'd be more comfortable at 32). The reason I'm not willing to cut any more Fanatics is the mirror. Fanatic is nice there. But yea, I've always loved high landcount, I'd really want to fit a 25th, but I'd want it to be a Mountain and that'd mean dropping business slots :( I can't go under 8 landhate slots since they just win too many games. In the mirror, the most brutal thing you can do is gain the Vial-advantage and then go after the opponent's lands. I'd really want to fit a Dust Bowl too, but I don't think I can fit it, and without Tomb, fueling it is harder.

One attraction of Skarrg, the Rage Pits is how it allows me to trample over poor, hapless Silver Knights. On the other hand, one of the main attractions in Rancor is that it allows me to run anything into a boardful of 3/3s and 4/4s knowing that I'll be 1 for 1ing easily, against a deck that packs ~12 creatures total. And of course, Skarrg gives me the mana I so love.

I was also thinking of making a 16th red source into a Barbarian Ring, just for the hell of it (ok, so I don't want landflood either). I don't know how to fit one though. I've already had some pretty rotten Ringleaders and I'm blaming the low Goblin-count (I've only lost one game to them though...that was to UGr Thres which opened with 4 Pyroclasms and some Stifles in hand, a Mongoose went the distance). But ya, if you go green, Tin Street, Grip and Rancor are definitely the main attractions.


Bovinious: I know full well what Warchief does, but he's hardest card in the deck to cast and he doesn't provide card advantage, so while he's nutty good, he's not quite as good as the rest of the deck in my opinion. Tin Street + Warchief never comes up, when you have Warchief, opponent either deals with it or you win. Especially referring to artifacts like Umezawa's Jitte, Cursed Scroll and company, Tin Street is worlds better against them, but he also kills Vials, especially on the all-so-critical turn 2 in the mirror. Oh, and he's a 2/1, so Rancored, he can swing into Werebears while Tinkerer can only swing into Mongeese. If I went mono-red, I'd definitely play the 4-Tinkerer solution, but if I'm in green, I'd rather play the superior alternative. He can't be Needled either, while Thres can Needle Tinkerer then Vial. Oh, and neither of them can kill Top. And Hooligan doesn't cost extra mana to kill with, definite bonus. My main gripe with Tinkerer is, most of the cards it's played to answer answer him first (Needle stops him from killing itself, Jitte kills him before untap, Scroll kills him before untap, Sword of Fire and Ice kills him before untap, etc.), so he's reduced to killing Affinity (bla) and Chalices (double bla, it's not gonna live long against Faerie Stompy anyways and Stax is Stax).

Also, the only reason I'm not playing 4 Tin Streets is because I couldn't fit the 4th in. The card is so darn good, I'd want a full set. As for Siege-Gang, his importance is kinda increased in a deck that can make Lackey connect more consistently. I might add a 4th Chief back in for a Fanatic though, as Lackey-Fanatic is the second-most-brutal play in the deck, on early turns, the mana acceleration really feels.

[Bovinious]

I guess I can see where your coming from, I think Im just having a hard time seeing running Rancor, Hooligan, and possibly the 23rd/24th land, not that I think those are bad choices I just wonder how you fit it all in, it just seems like those extra cards all have to cut into the core of the deck, and while they all have big advantages Im not sure they outweigh weakening the standard goblin core. I haven't tryed it out extensively so I guess you would know better than me.

[Bane of the Living]

I guess I can see where your coming from, I think Im just having a hard time seeing running Rancor, Hooligan, and possibly the 23rd/24th land, not that I think those are bad choices I just wonder how you fit it all in, it just seems like those extra cards all have to cut into the core of the deck, and while they all have big advantages Im not sure they outweigh weakening the standard goblin core. I haven't tryed it out extensively so I guess you would know better than me.

Just try it, there are alot of non believers till these things make a bigger impact as a whole. Most people stuck through with red gobs till people were putting up numbers with StP in their lists. I made top 4 with Green Goblin its more than viable. He's right the Hooligan Warchief issue NEVER comes up at all, and if you should draw into both your in a position where you probably dont need Tin at the moment. Its not Tinkerers needle weakness but his lack of haste that really defines a difference between the two. I remember IBA coming in here boasting about Hooligan when he was printed but everyone just wrote him off, myself included. Then I got bored with mono red and shuffled it up with Rancors. I'll stick green from here on out.

I agree its a mistake to cut that fourth Warchief, the Fanatics can go first. Im down to 2 in my build but its not bothersome at all thanks to the huge absence of Survival now. When playing Chalice in the board he's first out anyways.

[emidln]

I've cut Fanatic from my Rg build entirely. First it was so I could run 4 Tinkerer, but I never put him back in and haven't wanted him since. I'm running 4 SGC, 3 Tin Street Hooligan, 1 Sharpshooter, and 2 Jitte with 8 disruption lands now and it seems to be working out fine. The only problem I've noticed is that in the mirror, there is a relatively low land count of lands that actually tap for red mana, which can be problematic at times. I've been wanting to try out -3 Tin Street, +3 Tinkerer, -8 Fetches, -2 Taiga, +10 Mountain for awhile but haven't really found the time. This would help out a lot with 4x SGC allowing me to throw more goblins at my opponent in case of mass removal, as well as be better in the mirror and slightly improving Ringleader.

[Eldariel]

Just try it, there are alot of non believers till these things make a bigger impact as a whole. Most people stuck through with red gobs till people were putting up numbers with StP in their lists. I made top 4 with Green Goblin its more than viable. He's right the Hooligan Warchief issue NEVER comes up at all, and if you should draw into both your in a position where you probably dont need Tin at the moment. Its not Tinkerers needle weakness but his lack of haste that really defines a difference between the two. I remember IBA coming in here boasting about Hooligan when he was printed but everyone just wrote him off, myself included. Then I got bored with mono red and shuffled it up with Rancors. I'll stick green from here on out.

I always loved the idea of Tin Street Hooligan (and pumplands too) ever since it was printed, but since I'm not much of a Goblins-player, I haven't gotten to try it out until now (as a rule, I don't play what's considered the 'best' deck in any given environment due to the fact that it'll be hated on heavily and therefore I need to get lucky to win). But now that I've played it, I've absolutely smashed people in the mirror solely thanks to winning the Vial-wars. I haven't tried against the 4-Tinkerer solution yet, but I believe the instantness of Tin Street will win over there.


I agree its a mistake to cut that fourth Warchief, the Fanatics can go first. Im down to 2 in my build but its not bothersome at all thanks to the huge absence of Survival now. When playing Chalice in the board he's first out anyways.

I just keep manacurve in mind. I don't want to miss my 1-drop, and Fanatic just does so much in the deck, including making the stupid Lackey stay away in the mirror (funny how all other decks scramble to get tons of answers to turn 1 Lackey on the draw, but Goblins themselves only pack 4 in Fanatics (as always, 1/1s don't count since they can be Fanaticed or Incinerated)).

[Tacosnape]

Then I got bored with mono red and shuffled it up with Rancors. I'll stick green from here on out.


Is Rancor that good of an idea, given how many times you're going to walk into a 2-for-1 by "In respone to Rancor, blah blah blah" where Blah blah blah = STP, Funeral Charm, Lightning Bolt, Hydroblast, Gempalm Incinerator, or what have you?

I see how it's incredibly strong against Threshold's Nimble Mongoose drop, but beyond Threshold, which isn't all that bad of a matchup to begin with, is there a situation you wouldn't just rather have Lightning Bolt, speaking strictly about Lackey connection? All other common 1-2 drops either die to lightning bolt or have toughness 4 or greater, in which case Rancor doesn't get you through it either, and a 4-toughness goes down to Bolt/Fanatic if you have it. Things like Silver Knight aren't going to make a difference, as the first strike negates the Rancor as effectively as the pro-red negates the Lightning Bolt, and I don't think anyone runs Galina's anymore. And Lightning Bolt's easier to cast if your opening land draw was, say, Mountain/Wasteland/Port.

(EDIT: For reference, my build has 23 land, 4 vials, 3 Siege-Gangs, 2 Tin-Streets, and 4 of all the other major players in Goblins. I've been contemplating sneaking 2 Lightning Bolts in, but Rancor has me curious.)

[Jak]

I have been really liking ib, goblin halfheart tactician do to his ability to kill werebears or mongooses with his power of three. My mono red build has been working out really well.

Lands
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
4 wooded foothills
10 mountains

Non-Creatures
4 aether vial

Creatures
4 goblin lackey
4 mogg fanatic
4 goblin piledriver
3 goblin tinkerer
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin matron
4 gempalm incinerator
1 ib, goblin halheart tactician
4 goblin ringleader
3 siege-gang commander

SB
4 chalice of the void
4 pyroblast
3 anarchy
4 pyrokinesis

The sideboard may need a little tweaking, but my big question is if I should definitely splash for green. I was just playing in some games against my friends madness deck and he smoked me in two games getting jitte online early. This obviously made me doubt mono red a bit. I would play my tinkerers, but before activation they would get pinged. I have tested the green and hooligans were really good, but it lacked the very strong mana base. So is it worth for me to drop the 100 bucks for a set of taigas?

[Eldariel]

Is Rancor that good of an idea, given how many times you're going to walk into a 2-for-1 by "In respone to Rancor, blah blah blah" where Blah blah blah = STP, Funeral Charm, Lightning Bolt, Hydroblast, Gempalm Incinerator, or what have you?

I don't see that happening about ever. Your deck packs so many must-kill guys anyways that they'll have far better things to do than to wait for the Rancor (like, kill the Warchief before you go nuts, kill the Lackey before they die, kill the Piledriver before it attacks their weak point for massive damage, kill SGC before every killspell they play has added 'pay 2 life' condition, etc.). I usually don't cast Rancor to open mana except when opponent clearly can't afford to kill it (like, I'm swinging with Fanatic and Lackey and he only has one mana open; I'm a-go to Rancor up the Fanatic even if he has removal, since he's going to need it to prevent me from just winning) or when it's lategame exhaustion and he probably isn't holding removal. The fact that it turns a simple Goblin-token into a 3-power beater makes it incredible for any sort of exhaustion scenario, and the fact that it allows Piledrivers and Lackeys through is just nuts. I've so far been 2-for-1d exactly once and that cost my opponent the game the one time he did it (killed a Fanatic over a Warbeef).


I see how it's incredibly strong against Threshold's Nimble Mongoose drop, but beyond Threshold, which isn't all that bad of a matchup to begin with, is there a situation you wouldn't just rather have Lightning Bolt, speaking strictly about Lackey connection? All other common 1-2 drops either die to lightning bolt or have toughness 4 or greater, in which case Rancor doesn't get you through it either, and a 4-toughness goes down to Bolt/Fanatic if you have it. Things like Silver Knight aren't going to make a difference, as the first strike negates the Rancor as effectively as the pro-red negates the Lightning Bolt, and I don't think anyone runs Galina's anymore. And Lightning Bolt's easier to cast if your opening land draw was, say, Mountain/Wasteland/Port.

Yea, Bolt's all good in that regard, but Rancor is simply more efficient in the long run, not least because it doesn't go away unless you cast it into removal and because Nimble Mongoose is a real threat. Also, there're some random scenarios like Galina's Knight and Sea Sprite/Weatherseed Faeries where Bolt is powerless while Rancor goes through (also, Rancor allows attacking into 4/4s like Grunt, Ravenous Baloth and company without card disadvantage associated).


(EDIT: For reference, my build has 23 land, 4 vials, 3 Siege-Gangs, 2 Tin-Streets, and 4 of all the other major players in Goblins. I've been contemplating sneaking 2 Lightning Bolts in, but Rancor has me curious.)

I suggest you give it a shot. Rancor is really mean. Especially when it comes out of the blue on your Piledriver when they've calculated they could chumpblock it.


On another note, I've been really amazed by the resiliency of Vial Gobs. I mean, of course I've always known how the deck can steal games from anything, but I've won matches against Irish Wombat, Life.dec and Angel Stompy among others, all decks that supposedly beat Gobs real easy. Tin Street Hooligans are of course the largest cultrips to some of these improvements (Angel Stompy, for example, is far less scary when you blow up the equipment), but other cases have been simply Lackey/Vial abuse and the mana denial lands taking it home. Also, all kinds of combo-decks seem to randomally lose to clock and land denial. Of course, the pilots have been lacking, which partially explains it, but still, I was really surprised by how the deck just seems able to win against anything. On the other hand, I've also been surprised by the amount of consistency issues I have in the opening hands. Usually I try to mull into a hand with few lands and 1-drop or good curve, which seems to be very hard on occasions. Now, it's of course partially because I play on MWS, but I seem to just get lots of colourless hands and lots of unplayable jank. Also, my Ringleaders often come out totally blank, which is extremely frustrating.

[Clark Kant]

How useful would you say siding in 4 Silent Arbiter against this deck be with FoW and/or Chalice backup?

I know that it would absolutely have to be destroyed in order to win, but how likely do you think it is that you will be able to destroy it, especially multiples of it, against a deck that runs 4 Force of Wills. I am under the impression that you only run 1 Tinkerer, and probably bring in 2 Naturalize/Disenchant from the board.

I've tried it and it was solid, I had success baiting out Tinkerer and Incinerators with other creatures and artifacts, but I don't know if it was because of my opponent's build, or his playskill, so I want to hear an honest answer from goblins players.

What about 4 Propaganda?

[emidln]

How useful would you say siding in 4 Silent Arbiter against this deck be with FoW and/or Chalice backup?

I know that it would absolutely have to be destroyed in order to win, but how likely do you think it is that you will be able to destroy it, especially multiples of it, against a deck that runs 4 Force of Wills. I am under the impression that you only run 1 Tinkerer, and probably bring in 2 Naturalize/Disenchant from the board.

I've tried it and it was solid, I had success baiting out Tinkerer and Incinerators with other creatures and artifacts, but I don't know if it was because of my opponent's build, or his playskill, so I want to hear an honest answer from goblins players.

What about 4 Propaganda?

Goblin will always have the option to sit back and SGC/Sharpshooter you out from behind any wall you put up (outside of Sphere of Law). SGC can also shoot the Arbiter for what it's worth.

[Clark Kant]

All I want to know is if you think the card will slow you guys by a couple of turns, not if it will lock the deck out.

Sorry that I wasn't clearer. If you didn't get this from the mention of FoW and Chalice backup, I'm talking about Fairie Stompy, which can easily win if it just gets a turn or two

I'm not trying to put up a wall, I'm trying to stop goblins attacks for two turns or so which is more than enough for F. Stompy to get the win. By the time goblins has made the 6 land drops needed for Seige-Gang to kill of Arbiter, F. Stompy should have won, and at the worst case, be with in a turn of winning. And I would rather that all of Seige-Gangs tokens be used to deal with Arbiter than to kill off two of my other threats. So Seige-Gang wasn't the concern. My concern is with Gempalm and the the lone Sharpshooter, and any disenchant effects you bring in from the side.

It's been pretty easy for me to bait out the Gempalm to be used on one of my creatures. And it hasn't been too hard to bait out the disenchant effects and Tinkerers to deal with my equipment and chalices and such too. But I'm not sure if that had to do with my opponents playskill or build.

So once again, how useful would you say siding in 4 Silent Arbiter against this deck be with FoW and/or Chalice backup? Would it be enough to slow the deck by a cuple of turns.

What about 4 Propaganda? Does that card usually slow you down by a couple of turns, even though it seems like every build brings in ReB's to deal with Drakes and Efreets. But once again, you can bait out ReBs with these or with Propaganda as well depending on what you need more at the moment, a stall tactic, or a creature.

I'm trying to figure out which of those two cards, Arbiter and Propaganda, you guys fear more as slowing you down by a turn or two.

[Bane of the Living]

Propaganda, because even if the gob opponent brings in enchantment hate it's the only thing that can take it down as opposed to Krosan Grip and Gempalm. If Green Goblin catches on alittle more I'd imagine the threat of Tin-Street will grow as well.

[Eldariel]

Propaganda, because even if the gob opponent brings in enchantment hate it's the only thing that can take it down as opposed to Krosan Grip and Gempalm. If Green Goblin catches on alittle more I'd imagine the threat of Tin-Street will grow as well.

And even if not, the mono-red builds should go for the 4-Tinkerer Solution so the artifact-removal is going to be much easier for the deck than enchantment removal.

[BoardinCharlie]

I have seen there has been a lot of discussion about the R/G version lately and I have tried it and have come to love it. One of my main issues with the deck is how much have people been liking the Rancors? I have found them very usefull to push piledriver damage in on top of pretty much a solution to nimbles. The main question here I guess is how many copies have other people been running. I'm between 2-3. What are peoples thoughts?

When I only have 2 it sometimes gets revealed as a ringleader CIP and ruins the suprise and/or I end up just not seeign it, but when I have three I find myself getting a rancor when I would like another threat or I would rather not fetch out a dual cause of opposing wastes.

[Eldariel]

I have seen there has been a lot of discussion about the R/G version lately and I have tried it and have come to love it. One of my main issues with the deck is how much have people been liking the Rancors? I have found them very usefull to push piledriver damage in on top of pretty much a solution to nimbles. The main question here I guess is how many copies have other people been running. I'm between 2-3. What are peoples thoughts?

When I only have 2 it sometimes gets revealed as a ringleader CIP and ruins the suprise and/or I end up just not seeign it, but when I have three I find myself getting a rancor when I would like another threat or I would rather not fetch out a dual cause of opposing wastes.

I'd never, under any circumstances, go under 30 Goblins in this deck, so 2 is all I can fit if I want the 24 lands (another minimum for me). I'd want to play 3, but the deck's internal demands force me to run 2 max. The other option is none, but I don't find that one very exciting seeing how damn good Rancor is. Still, 32 Goblins=much more consistent Ringleaders than 30.

[Tacosnape]

I'd never, under any circumstances, go under 30 Goblins in this deck, so 2 is all I can fit if I want the 24 lands (another minimum for me). I'd want to play 3, but the deck's internal demands force me to run 2 max. The other option is none, but I don't find that one very exciting seeing how damn good Rancor is. Still, 32 Goblins=much more consistent Ringleaders than 30.

On your advice, I did some playing around with it last night, and I've found that in complete violation of everything I ever taught myself about non-toolbox magic decks, I'm liking exactly a single, lone Rancor in the deck. This lets me keep my Goblin count at 32 (31 for you, since you run 24 land to my 23), keeps me from drawing a hand full of Land/Rancor/Vial/High-cost Goblin as often, allows my Ringleaders to connect more smoothly, and still gives me the occasional, bizarre element of surprise that Rancor can bring.

The reason I started playing Green goblins in the first place is that I felt STP had no business in the deck, as it negated all those little lovetaps for 1 and more importantly, made Ringleader miss a lot more. I hate going below 32 Goblins, so this seems to be working well for me.

[Jak]

Okay I have switched back to green because of Jitte. Tinkerer just would get killed before he could use his ability. I do though have a few questions on my build. First here it is.

Lands
4 wasteland
3 rishadan port
4 wooded foothills
2 bloodstained mire
4 taiga
6 mountain

Non-Creatures
4 aether vial

Creatures
4 goblin lackey
2 mogg fanatic
4 goblin piledriver
3 tin-street hooligan
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin matron
1 goblin sharpshooter
4 gempalm incinerator
4 goblin ringleader
3 siege-gang commander

SB
4 chalice of the void
4 pyroblast
4 krosan grip
3 pyrokinesis

Okay now to my questions. Mogg fanatics for me have not helped too much. I was thinking of turning them into skirks for the sharpshooter food, would that help the deck or hurt it? I have killed a spirit of the night this way and won the same turn with those 2 cards. Goblin sharpshooter or Ib? Cut moggs for rancors? Sideboard looks okay? If someone can help me answer these questions it would really help. My meta is really diverse with threshold, gobs, reanimator, madness, and combo like solidarity and igg.

[BoardinCharlie]

@ 3 Ports- I really feel that these are the ways game 1 you beat sneaky combo decks besides the outrageous god hands. These also help your U/G/R thresh matchups because you can tap our their red sources when you can make a piledriver lethal through a vial. I would definately play the full compliment of 4.

@23 Land- I have found that 24 land is the necessary amount of statistically reach 4 mana by turn 4 without a vial.

@ Sharpshooter- Originally I think this card was used against survival advantage and a little help to the mirror since then SA has moved out of play and better cards have been found for the mirror. I just haven't been finding him as powerful as he should be, like you mention he does kind of require you to have another card with it to be really powerful. Also the mathups you list don't seem to need this card *fat creatures* and you would be better of with Ib against Wurms, bears, etc. Also if this card was pushed into sideboard it seems there is better options against those decks if you already don't steamroll them over with CA.

@ 3 Tinstreet- I really like this number...makes it in your hand early but doesn't clog it up.

@ Rancor over Fanatic- I have been testing 2x rancor in the fanatic spots. I'm not really liking the low count of goblins for a G cc spell. Yeah it does steal games sometimes because of miscalculating life with blocks and such, but taking away your tempo tends to hurt. Then again in your meta it seems like the rancor would help out tremendously against grow, madness, mirror, and an added damage against combo.

[Eldariel]

@ 3 Ports- I really feel that these are the ways game 1 you beat sneaky combo decks besides the outrageous god hands. These also help your U/G/R thresh matchups because you can tap our their red sources when you can make a piledriver lethal through a vial. I would definately play the full compliment of 4.

Adding to the combo discussion, if combo draws even an average hand, no God-hand of yours is going to make a difference. You need full 4 Ports for maximal win percentage against combo-decks game 1 (and control- and aggro-decks as well). Ports are too good not to run 4 of, especially since they enhance the efficiency of your Wastelands. If anything, drop a Wasteland since they slow down your mana development (unlike Ports which just allow you to utilize otherwise wasted mana efficiently to stall the opponent) and are only effective against a half of the format anyways.


@23 Land- I have found that 24 land is the necessary amount of statistically reach 4 mana by turn 4 without a vial.

I'd really want 25 lands if I could fit them, but so far I've been unable to.


@ Sharpshooter- Originally I think this card was used against survival advantage and a little help to the mirror since then SA has moved out of play and better cards have been found for the mirror. I just haven't been finding him as powerful as he should be, like you mention he does kind of require you to have another card with it to be really powerful. Also the mathups you list don't seem to need this card *fat creatures* and you would be better of with Ib against Wurms, bears, etc. Also if this card was pushed into sideboard it seems there is better options against those decks if you already don't steamroll them over with CA.

He's really useless in the mirror, you've got far better removal with Mogg Fanatics and Incinerators (also contributing to the fact that Sharpshooter has a short lifespan). Pyrokinesis does so much more, and out of Goblins, you'll want more guys with cards like SGC.


@ Rancor over Fanatic- I have been testing 2x rancor in the fanatic spots. I'm not really liking the low count of goblins for a G cc spell. Yeah it does steal games sometimes because of miscalculating life with blocks and such, but taking away your tempo tends to hurt. Then again in your meta it seems like the rancor would help out tremendously against grow, madness, mirror, and an added damage against combo.

I might try 1 Rancor as fitting 2 just is hurting me too often, but 1 could randomally be good without f*ing up the deck. This would allow me to go back to 4 Mogg Fanatics or Warbeefs.

[Jak]

Okay thanks you guys for helping me out on those questions. I did a little tweaking and testing and found a list that I like. And it was hard for me to cut a port so it is back in.

Lands
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
4 wooded foothills
2 bloodstained mire
4 taiga
6 mountain

Non-Creatures
4 aether vial
1 rancor

Creatures
4 goblin lackey
2 mogg fanatic
4 goblin piledriver
3 tin-street hooligan
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin matron
4 gempalm incinerator
4 goblin ringleader
2 siege-gang commander

SB
4 chalice of the void
4 pyrostatic pillar
4 krosan grip
3 pyrokinesis

I really hated cutting a siege, but is it the right move? I couldn't see myself with such a bad curve and cut moggs. But I am testing one rancor. It has shown up a few times which I like. I shall continue testing it. Any way does the SB look good? Should I add Ib in there for thresh and stuff? He helped me a lot against them and I would like to get him in there. What to cut though? I added pillar in from some testing and it helped a lot more with solidarity. Pyroblast was useless after chalice for 1.

[BoardinCharlie]

@ 1 Rancor- I know that one of will not affect the power of ringleader by much and also will not be hard to afford with the 10 G mana makers *fetches included*....but my main concern is that does 1 Rancor really make that much difference? I guess I don't see the point of running 1 if you can't fetch it, just my opinion?

@ Ib- He is kind of a meta decision, since you are agreeing with his power in your field I would say that Warchief would be your best cut. Going down to 3 doesn't really seem to affect the deck that much. Honestly I have found in the mirror that I tend to hold him back until I need to explode or play him when i know I get an advantage out of him. Also if I don't have a vial out I have run into times where an opposing goblin player can keep me off double red the first few turns. Just seems like the right cut here.

@2 SeigeGangs- Since the deck has veered away from trying to always getting that god pull with seigegang through lackey and a lot of decks finding an answer for early crazyness in the form of pyrclasm 2 seige gangs seems to be the right count. You don't want to clump your hand with them and you still have multiple draw/tutor effects for them.

@ Sideboard- I think that its really a choice between chalice and pillar...they don't really work well together. The idea behind those I think is do you either want to punish your opponent for playing spells or just not let them. I like the idea of punishing them more over than then other. I have found that I like pillar better because solidarity/combo can play around it either by bouncing it, but they take damage and time for digging and bouncing it.

My sideboard is as follows:

4x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Pyrokinesis
3x Krosan Grip
3x REB
2x Tormods Crypt

[Jak]

I just put one rancor in there because of what Tacosnape said. You never really need it in games, so if you don't draw it no biggie. But when you do it will help that lackey connect or piledriver. I really don't want to go below 31, what I am at now. Ib helped, but I would rather have the warchief out in games. I probably will just stick him in the SB. The idea of the sideboard was just to try and get them so they have to remove it, then you play the other. Chalice is strong all around, so I want to keep that in. I used to play pyroblast to force a chalice through or counter something if I never got chalice, but it was dead if I did. So I tried out pillar with it and it worked well. Having 8 things solidarity needs to remove is big. Still need to test it more because Pyroblast was good at times.

[Tacosnape]

I finally came to the conclusion Rancor wasn't worth the 1-slot (at least the way I play the deck), tempting as it is to run it. I couldn't justify removing any card for it. Mogg Fanatic, especially with Hannifish on the rise and the mirror as important as ever, is too good to me to run less than four of. It picks off Lackey, Confidant, Birds, and improves your shot of connecting with that Lackey significantly against random jank like Mother of Runes. Not to mention, it's more damage to the face should people play things that slow down your attack like Ghostly Prison (Or even Reverence, which hit the board against me the other day. Look -that- one up.) Plus it's a one drop, which is all the nicer when you want to fill your board up with Piledriver pumpers ASAP. It's been way too versatile for me not to run.

I certainly don't ever want less than 3 Siege-Gang Commanders main, as he greatly increases your chance of outracing Solidarity if you connect with a Lackey, and he's greatly responsible for winning through stalled out games by throwing tokens at people's heads. I run 2 Tin-Streets because I can't squeeze the third in, and haven't had much problem keeping Jitte away (Except when Hannifish Stifles it, which is annoying.) I refuse to run less than 23 land when I run 8 that don't produce red. So that's 23 Land, 3 Siege-Gangs, 4 Fanatics, and 2 Tin-Streets, for a total of 32. To squeeze in anything else I'd have to snip one from the remaining 4 of's (Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, Gempalm, Vial), and the only one I'd ever consider doing that for is the Gempalm, which lowers my mirror match chances.

[Jak]

Yes I hate having only 2 siege. I will still test rancor and have decided to cut a tin street in order to get that 3 siege in. I am also wanting at least 3 moggs for the better curve and the creature control. I will see how the testing goes. I might try this list.

Lands
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
4 wooded foothills
2 bloodstained mire
4 taiga
5 mountain

Non-Creatures
4 aether vial
1 rancor

Creatures
4 goblin lackey
3 mogg fanatic
4 goblin piledriver
2 tin-street hooligan
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin matron
4 gempalm incinerator
4 goblin ringleader
3 siege-gang commander

SB
4 chalice of the void
4 pyrostatic pillar/pyroblast
4 krosan grip
3 pyrokinesis

[BoardinCharlie]

Looking at the decklist under the light of the recent responses I agree that solidarity and goblins are much more played that many other decks which are equipment heavy. I think I will test out the 3x Seige-Gange and 2x Tin-street instead of the previously mentioned. With only the 2x Tin-street have you found that the mirror match is still good? I guess the main thing you will lose out to the mono red is consistancy? Something tells me the speed factor is huge specially when it comes to throwing out a seige gang with mana open to fling stuff. Also I will try the 23 land approach, but I hope that the statistics don't prove wrong....

[Jak]

The mirror MU is definitely still good. If you can get to you Tin streets early and use them and have a good SB for the mirror, your mirror MU should not go down. I think 23 lands are perfect. I used to play with 22 and they worked fine and playing with 24 I would get mana screwed too much. I feel 23 is the right number for splashed goblins.

[rmd83]

ok sorry if i'm a little late on this topic and i am new to the source so you guys can call me a n00b or whatever and i am pretty new to the legacy format =P but anyways i've noticed alot of people discussing the mana base for vial goblins and what not so i've decided to go ahead and add my 2 cents

first of all about the mana base, vial gobbos honestly don't need more than 8 mountains and most of the decks splash white or green which my personal preference is white so i built mine with plateaus of course everyone knows you play with fetch too unless you just don't like the damage but fetch grants you a plateau just incase you have stp in hand, i also have a fond liking to wastelands over port just because most legacy decks play with duals and other crazy lands like port which you can blow up so port wouldn't really help your opponent unless they fish it back out....anyways my vial goblin deck's mana base is

8 mountain
4 wasteland
4 bloodstained mire
4 wooded foothill
2 plateau

second of all i'm not very fond of kiki-jiki over sgc to make this simple kiki-jiki is only good pre-wrath with good goblins out and like someone said sgc is much more dangerous post-wrath than kiki-jiki is i don't know why the more current builds of vial goblins use kiki-jiki and king since they don't do much except copy your creatures and pump your goblins up some...my creature build is

4 warchief
4 ring leader
4 fanatic
4 matron
4 piledriver
4 lackey
3 incinerators
3 siege-gang commanders
1 sharpshooter

i know you guys are probably getting tired of me already so i'll try to finish quickly, my other spells are

4 aether vial
3 pyrokinesis

this deck grants me a 2nd turn lackey to get through unless lackey gets burned or fow'ed, my sb has all my white spells incase i'm playing against decks i need the cards for

4 pyrostatic pillar
3 armageddon
3 disenchant
2 tormod's crypt
2 phyrexian furnace
1 stp

i didn't come up with the build though =P but it's a great deck and i've held my own in multiplayer games and i've only lost 1 1 on 1 game against a pro red deck

[rmd83]

ok sorry if i'm a little late on this topic and i am new to the source so you guys can call me a n00b or whatever and i am pretty new to the legacy format =P but anyways i've noticed alot of people discussing the mana base for vial goblins and what not so i've decided to go ahead and add my 2 cents

first of all about the mana base, vial gobbos honestly don't need more than 8 mountains and most of the decks splash white or green which my personal preference is white so i built mine with plateaus of course everyone knows you play with fetch too unless you just don't like the damage but fetch grants you a plateau just incase you have stp in hand, i also have a fond liking to wastelands over port just because most legacy decks play with duals and other crazy lands like port which you can blow up so port wouldn't really help your opponent unless they fish it back out....anyways my vial goblin deck's mana base is

8 mountain
4 wasteland
4 bloodstained mire
4 wooded foothill
2 plateau

second of all i'm not very fond of kiki-jiki over sgc to make this simple kiki-jiki is only good pre-wrath with good goblins out and like someone said sgc is much more dangerous post-wrath than kiki-jiki is i don't know why the more current builds of vial goblins use kiki-jiki and king since they don't do much except copy your creatures and pump your goblins up some...my creature build is

4 warchief
4 ring leader
4 fanatic
4 matron
4 piledriver
4 lackey
3 incinerators
3 siege-gang commanders
1 sharpshooter

i know you guys are probably getting tired of me already so i'll try to finish quickly, my other spells are

4 aether vial
3 pyrokinesis

this deck grants me a 2nd turn lackey to get through unless lackey gets burned or fow'ed, my sb has all my white spells incase i'm playing against decks i need the cards for

4 pyrostatic pillar
3 armageddon
3 disenchant
2 tormod's crypt
2 phyrexian furnace
1 stp

i didn't come up with the build though =P but it's a great deck and i've held my own in multiplayer games and i've only lost 1 1 on 1 game against a pro red deck

[Jak]

ok sorry if i'm a little late on this topic and i am new to the source so you guys can call me a n00b or whatever and i am pretty new to the legacy format =P but anyways i've noticed alot of people discussing the mana base for vial goblins and what not so i've decided to go ahead and add my 2 cents

first of all about the mana base, vial gobbos honestly don't need more than 8 mountains and most of the decks splash white or green which my personal preference is white so i built mine with plateaus of course everyone knows you play with fetch too unless you just don't like the damage but fetch grants you a plateau just incase you have stp in hand, i also have a fond liking to wastelands over port just because most legacy decks play with duals and other crazy lands like port which you can blow up so port wouldn't really help your opponent unless they fish it back out....anyways my vial goblin deck's mana base is

8 mountain
4 wasteland
4 bloodstained mire
4 wooded foothill
2 plateau

second of all i'm not very fond of kiki-jiki over sgc to make this simple kiki-jiki is only good pre-wrath with good goblins out and like someone said sgc is much more dangerous post-wrath than kiki-jiki is i don't know why the more current builds of vial goblins use kiki-jiki and king since they don't do much except copy your creatures and pump your goblins up some...my creature build is

4 warchief
4 ring leader
4 fanatic
4 matron
4 piledriver
4 lackey
3 incinerators
3 siege-gang commanders
1 sharpshooter

i know you guys are probably getting tired of me already so i'll try to finish quickly, my other spells are

4 aether vial
3 pyrokinesis

this deck grants me a 2nd turn lackey to get through unless lackey gets burned or fow'ed, my sb has all my white spells incase i'm playing against decks i need the cards for

4 pyrostatic pillar
3 armageddon
3 disenchant
2 tormod's crypt
2 phyrexian furnace
1 stp

i didn't come up with the build though =P but it's a great deck and i've held my own in multiplayer games and i've only lost 1 1 on 1 game against a pro red deck

No need to call you a n00b. We all started at one point :wink: . I really think with the splash you should try to get the full set of plateaus if you like the white splash, unless it is for budget concerns. I would also cut down on the fetches because 8 is a lot more than you need, especially when you run only 2 plateaus. And I strongly suggest you have ports in there. You really need the full mana denial package. 3-4 is good. You can also add a land or 2 if it helps you.

The creature base looks good. I would try to get another incinerator in there. For your SB, I would just go with 4 crypts. Furnace is just way to slow to stop any decks in the format. I would also try out chalice of the void in the board too because it just slows down a lot of combo and threshold.

Finally, I really would try out the green splash if you have the money for duals. (I am working on finishing my set.) It just works really well. I would like to hear what your meta is like to help your board out more.

[rmd83]

ahh yea...i have a job so i can buy the duals when i get paid next tuesday, as far as green goes i'm comfortable playing white for now and i'll test it out when i get some decks i'm working on out the way...the only reason i run 2 plateaus is because the white cards don't cost more than 1 white and like i said i have 8 fetch and 2 plateaus so i'm given 10 ways to get plateau when i sb in d/e or stp which i was thinking about taking furnace out for something damage isn't a big concern though since it runs quickly...right now i want to finish solidarity, glimpse, sunny side up (for 1.x), and my g/w casual land lock down decks :) luckily for me i'm only missing 8 cards for solidarity and SSU i'm missing about 10 or 11, glimpse i need about 50 or so but they're cheap, and my casual deck will cost me about $300 or so

solidarity
------------
2 resets
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta

SSU
------
2 cunning wish
4 reshape (should get them in the mail soon)
1 pithing needle
3 orim's chants
1 brainstorm

can't remember the others but they're cheap rares or uncommons


my casual deck i'll need duals, exploration, crucible, possibly birds, ect...

so all of my money is going to these decks right now :)

[rmd83]

also another reason for using so much fetch is for deck thinning, i mean i'd be willing to sac 8 fetch to optimize the threat level of drawing more goblins =P

[rmd83]

hmm...we don't really do legacy around here...it's mostly t2 or drafting but i do have a friend about 3 hours away from me and the place he goes to does alot of legacy so i'll try to visit him soon

[Eldariel]

rmd, you might want to consider using the Edit-button instead of posting multiple consecutive posts. Also, please stick to proper grammar, it makes the text much easier to read.

But yea, down to business:
-2 vs. 3 Tin Street Hooligans: 2 is always good, but 3 will be better. It's a simple fact that the build running 3 is going to see it more often than the build playing 2 (and the build playing 4 is going to see it the most), and therefore have the biggest advantage in the mirror, so play as many as you can fit. You'll simply have to evaluate the remaining Goblins, see what you're really after and emphasize that in the card choices. That's my reasoning for dropping Warchief, ultimately Warchief just buys me a bit of speed. By the time, I want to finish opponent with a hasty attack, I've had dozens of chances to Matron for Warchief already.
-Landbase: 23 lands is decent, but 24 lands is really the minimum if you can't count on your Vial living and want to run Wastes. Personally, I'd never go under 24, but it's up to every person; how many games are you willing to lose due to bad mulligans or manascrew? The best thing about running lots of lands is that it makes your mulligans safer, giving you a better chance of a decent mulligan-hand. Again, 24 lands makes for better mirror against versions with actual capacity to take out your Vials (white with MD 3-Disenchant, green with Tin Street Hooligans or mono-red 4-Tinkerer).
-2 vs. 3 SGCs: I'd really want 3. In fact, I'm dropping Rancor for third one because I simply can't fit it otherwise. I really want to be able to finish the opponent off, hence 3 SGCs for lategame power.
-Mogg Fanatic: For manacurve reasons, it can't be dropped. One might be droppable for a Skirk Prospector (maintaining the manacurve), but overall, Fanatic stays. Also, Fanatic is incredibly important in the mirror, especially against people running Sharpshooter, soo...
-Board: I agree with BoardinCharlie, except for the REB/Tormod's Crypt numbers (and I play Chalice over Pyrostatic Pillar, since stopping spells>damage). I believe Tormod's Crypt should be at least a 3-of while REB can be a 2-of. Let's look at this a little more closely:

REB is mostly used against Threshold and Solidarity. Now, Solidarity is a slow combo-deck and not that bad a match-up. Tormod's Crypt actually does more against Threshold than REB. While REB comes in against decks like Faerie Stompy, there's overall little incentive to pack your SB full of REBs.

Tormod's Crypt comes in against Threshold and IGGy Pop. IGGy Pop is fast combo, which is much worse an MU than Solidarity and you literally need hate to beat it. Crypt also hits Threshold much harder than REB, so I definitely find 3 Crypts superior to 3 REBs. Chalice is a bit conflicting with REBs too.

[Bovinious]

rmd: I'm not really sure why you are running white, usually people do that for 3 Swords main, but you have chosen to use Pyrokinesis instead (which I think is a good decision). In the SB all white really gains you is Armageddon, green has Naturalize and also Krosan Grip which is way better than the both of the afforementioned. So I think if you want to splash a color, it should probably be green for Grip and Tin Street Hooligan, possibly Rancor but it's really hard to fit in. Also, try upping the land count to at least 23, you shouldn't have a problem with mana flood with 8 fetches and the deck is very mana hungry, Im currently trying to fit a 23rd land into my mono red version for either SGC #3 or Tinkerer #3 because I want easier access to double red (not too much of a problem if you don't run ports) and less mana screw.

[rmd83]

i'm guessing green is more favorable than white is. What should i replace for tin street if i main board him? also white just seems more favorable because of armageddon and stp. Grip and rancor are the only spell that really favors green imo for the deck, tin street is good but i honestly don't have room unless i sb him which again fitting him in my deck would be hard unless i replaced with a matron or fanatic. I'll toy around with green though and see what i can come up with, hopefully planar chaos will give us some good spells :)

[Jak]

You only run one StP, so why not more. Also armageddon is okay, but I would never want to just splash for that. Just put pyrokinesis in the SB and run like 2-4 Tin streets main. They are very good.

[Bane of the Living]

i'm guessing green is more favorable than white is. What should i replace for tin street if i main board him? also white just seems more favorable because of armageddon and stp. Grip and rancor are the only spell that really favors green imo for the deck, tin street is good but i honestly don't have room unless i sb him which again fitting him in my deck would be hard unless i replaced with a matron or fanatic. I'll toy around with green though and see what i can come up with, hopefully planar chaos will give us some good spells :)

Speaking as the major push of Green Goblin I reiterate the power in new technology. Krosan Grip gave goblins something it never had without Green splash, a response. Not just any response, an interrupt. It makes the build much trickier than it used to be. The inclusion of Tin-Street is another perfect example of the decks evolutions. People have tweaked the deck in all sorts of aspects to assume its current role in our metagame. People avidly pronouce gobs has the favorable matchup when it comes to lackey vs mongoose tales. When the deck is on top, its next largest enemy is itself. The edge Tin-Street provides is unmatched. I dont run Sharpshooter but the fourth Tin-Street for this matchup. Everyone who has enough experience with the mirror can tell you its vial superiority that wins the match. Take vial from your opponent and you have an easy battle. Ive faced the mirror when they brought in Jitte to fight me off, a battle easily won with Tin-Street no Tinkerer.

Tinkerer also has the edge of being a real threat in retrospect of useless targets. He doesnt blow up the only artifact in play (your vial) unless you pay a green, which you never need to do against your will. With Warchief he's efficient as 2 damage @ 1 mana. He always randomly blows up Cursed Scrolls, Chrome Moxen, and SoFI's as well. When Tinkerer isnt worth playing to blow up a mox a turn later, Tin-Street is.

Armageddon seems so glorious on paper but not in practice. The matchups this card become relavent in are growing smaller and smaller. Thats right, hanni fish is on the rise and so are other gro/fish hybrids. There arent many more high end mana intensive decks in our format anymore. With the exception of Landstill and maybe an IBA deck your Armageddons arent so cool right now. Thresh. Gobs. Iggy, Geddons not so great against them. Hell even stompy decks can come out from under them easily.

[Squirrely]

Hi, first time poster here.

I've read the last couple of pages in this thread and must say I like that a lot of people are going green instead of white. I never felt I needed STP in Goblins and think Pyrokinesis is mostly superior. So, green is logically the next step if you cut STP's.

I've seen a bit of discussion about the non-synergie of Tin Street and Warchief (and Vial to a lesser extent). Although most of you say it usually doesn't come up because of your opponent needing to answer the 'Chief anyway to just not lose, I am little hesitant about that. I mean, i can see myself sitting with Warchief in play and a Tin Street in hand with some bothersome artifact across the table and not being able to blow it up (f.e. an Ensnaring Bridge). I haven't tested Tin Streets out a lot myself, but I'm sure I like them better than Tinkerer in the abstract. This is my only concern about them. Maybe I do not need that concer, but I'd still like to be re-assured sometimes ;)

[Eldariel]

Hi, first time poster here.

I've read the last couple of pages in this thread and must say I like that a lot of people are going green instead of white. I never felt I needed STP in Goblins and think Pyrokinesis is mostly superior. So, green is logically the next step if you cut STP's.

I've seen a bit of discussion about the non-synergie of Tin Street and Warchief (and Vial to a lesser extent). Although most of you say it usually doesn't come up because of your opponent needing to answer the 'Chief anyway to just not lose, I am little hesitant about that. I mean, i can see myself sitting with Warchief in play and a Tin Street in hand with some bothersome artifact across the table and not being able to blow it up (f.e. an Ensnaring Bridge). I haven't tested Tin Streets out a lot myself, but I'm sure I like them better than Tinkerer in the abstract. This is my only concern about them. Maybe I do not need that concer, but I'd still like to be re-assured sometimes ;)

The thing is, the only relevant played artifacts are Cursed Scroll, equipment, Vial and maybe Scepter. Bridge isn't played (although if you do face it, it's a simple matter to Incinerator your Warchief before casting Tin Street), so it's not much of an issue.

[Squirrely]

True, and I know Bridge isn't widely played. It was just an example. In fact it was about the only thing I could think of that was bad enough to matter. So that alone should have answered my question maybe. Thanks anyway.

I'll try it out with the Hooligan.

[rmd83]

yea, now thinking about it green is starting to intrigue me. If so many people are playing with jits., scrolls, needle, ect... now i shouldn't be too worried about stp or armageddon as much since grip, tin street, and naturalize take care of the bigger threats. I however think tinkerer would be overall better than tin street due to needing green to use so if warchief is out you couldn't destroy an artifact, anyways guys thanks for helping me out and i'll fix the deck up some soon :)

[Eldariel]

yea, now thinking about it green is starting to intrigue me. If so many people are playing with jits., scrolls, needle, ect... now i shouldn't be too worried about stp or armageddon as much since grip, tin street, and naturalize take care of the bigger threats. I however think tinkerer would be overall better than tin street due to needing green to use so if warchief is out you couldn't destroy an artifact, anyways guys thanks for helping me out and i'll fix the deck up some soon :)

The issue with Tinkerer is, you need either a Warchief in play or an untap-step to use it and basically all of those artifacts are going to kill Warchief anyways, and in the same way, Tinkerer before you get your untap.

[Tacosnape]

Tinkerer is a garbage card and shouldn't be run in any Vial Goblins build ever. It doesn't help you against Combo, because it's slow and overcosted. It doesn't help you against aggro with or without Jitte because you can't kill the Jitte with it and 1/2's for 1R don't help stave off an onslaught of enemy creatures. And it doesn't help you against most control decks. Maybe the rogue deck running Ensnaring Bridge will pop up now and again, but you're better off just running another Siege-Gang Commander and finishing your opponent off by throwing Goblins at him. If you're worried about artifacts in a non-green goblin build, sideboard Disenchant or Shattering Spree.

Jak, your maindeck list is identical to mine except I have the 4th Fanatic in for the Rancor. Let me know after some testing how that single Rancor treats you. I might consider cutting a Fanatic, hard as it would be to justify to myself.

Eldariel, I strongly disagree with cutting the Warchief. Your points for doing so are obviously valid, but I don't think they cover a broad enough matchup spectrum, as <4 Warchief significantly drops your chances against High Tide or other combo decks, as well as some control decks. Lackey into Warchief is your best bet for producing turn three kills outside of Lackey into Siege-Gang followed by Piledriver. Lackey into Warchief allows turn 2 Matron into a Piledriver, or turn 2 Piledriver/Tin-Street, or turn two Warchief -again-, or what have you. It's not hard to stockpile up the damage. Because Combo is one of Goblins' more difficult matchups, I'd be afraid to ever cut that fourth Warchief.

Secondly, Warchief is a godsend against control decks, especially ones that rely on a lot of sorcery-speed explosions like MBC or Train Wreck. After refilling with Ringleader, Warchief allows you to go from having no goblins on the board to a full-out assault for close to the opponent's remaining life total.

My last point is that Pyroblast hasn't seemed to ever do that much for me. My sideboard has been 4 Chalice, 4 Crypt, 4 Pyrokinesis, 3 Krosan Grip for awhile now, and I love it as such. Crypt has been awesome against Threshold, especially with Tin-Street taking out any stray Pithing Needles. Crypt has also helped me against Reanimator, as R/G Goblins has no other way to deal with Akroma, as well as GK Salvagers and more importantly, Iggy Pop. More importantly, Tormod's Crypt takes nothing away from the deck's tempo, allowing you to drop it out while simultaneously launching your Goblins.

With three Siege-Gangs and the full compliment of ports, and the fact that most Solidarity nowadays isn't running Hydroblast, I haven't found it absolutely necessary to beat Solidarity. I do very well game 1 from speed alone, and Chalice nudges things along and at least makes them spend a Force or find time to Cunning Wish/Bounce it. Outside of Solidarity, I haven't had much use for it. It's nice to pick off Threshold's Brainstorms and Hydroblasts, but no more nice than Tormod's Crypt. Krosan Grip and Tin-Street takes care of most answers a Blue-based control deck can throw at Goblins (Grip is great against Landstill and Hannifish's Plagues, as most decks facing Goblins won't keep Duress in). Vial singlehandedly gives blue nightmares anyway, as the ability to churn out uncounterable goblins is nice.

Therefore, as Black/White/Red all seem more suited to providing hate for Goblins over Blue, I don't see the need to run a card to take shots at a mostly favorable color.

[Jak]

Rancor was okay, but didn't really help me win anything. So I just cut it and stuck in my 3rd Tin Street Hooligan. I really like how it is doing now. Here is my most updated list.

Lands
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
4 wooded foothills
2 bloodstained mire
4 taiga
5 mountain

Non-Creatures
4 aether vial

Creatures
4 goblin lackey
3 mogg fanatic
4 goblin piledriver
3 tin-street hooligan
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin matron
4 gempalm incinerator
4 goblin ringleader
3 siege-gang commander

SB
4 chalice of the void
4 pyrostatic pillar
3 krosan grip
4 pyrokinesis

[raudo]

I've run exactly the same build, but with 4 Fanatics and 2 Siege-Gang Commanders and I'm not going to cut any Fanatics off.

I think 2 Commanders are enough and when running 3 there is always a danger that you draw two into your opening hand, or one Commander with two Ringleaders.

[Bane of the Living]

I've run exactly the same build, but with 4 Fanatics and 2 Siege-Gang Commanders and I'm not going to cut any Fanatics off.

I think 2 Commanders are enough and when running 3 there is always a danger that you draw two into your opening hand, or one Commander with two Ringleaders.

I'm actually coming around to the fact 3 Siege are needed to beat Solidarity game one. That matchup is extremely dependant on what lackey brings out and not much else. Ill take the chance of drawing Siege 'too much' because too much is never enough for me.

Jak you build is exactly mine now. I dropped Rancor, altho I like it alot the tin streets demand the room. If Fanatic is weak in your meta I suggest the change however.

[Jak]

Well fanatics are not really weak in my meta. It is just that I hate drawing them late game or something. But I don't think I want to go below 3 again, just because of there ability to pick off random stuff like confidants, birds and even 2 powered dudes. So what do peoples SBs look like for the mirror hate and combo? I am seeing the mirror a lot more, so I was wondering if people are using more or different stuff other than pyrokinesis for creature removal for the RG version.

[Tacosnape]

It's bizarre how close we're all coming to builds on R/G Goblins. Jak's build is one card off from me, as I'm running 4 Fanatics and 2 Tin-Streets. (Not counting sideboard, as I don't run Pyrostatic Pillar)


I've run exactly the same build, but with 4 Fanatics and 2 Siege-Gang Commanders and I'm not going to cut any Fanatics off.

I think 2 Commanders are enough and when running 3 there is always a danger that you draw two into your opening hand, or one Commander with two Ringleaders.

As said above, the more Siege-Gang Commanders you have, the better your chance of beating Solidarity or any combo deck game one. Remember that most combo decks have very little defense against Lackey into SGC swings. Solidarity game one has only Force of Will.

It seems the debate for non-Rancor builds has become about 61 cards, and which to cut from the list of:

4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Tin-Street Hooligan
3 Siege-Gang Commander

(Or if you're as ballsy as Eldariel, a Goblin Warchief)

If you expect more combo/control than aggro/mirror, a case could be made for cutting the fourth Incinerator as well, but it's just so good in the mirror and for getting Lackey through random small crap that it's hard to justify.

Cutting the Mogg Fanatic slows your deck down and lowers your ability to deal with quick problems, like Birds of Paradise, Mother of Runes, Dark Confidant, or what have you. It also drops your chances of a Lackey connecting through things like Basking Rootwalla, Llanowar Elves, or whatever other random 1/1 or 2/1 hits the board. Fanatic also has reach, which can be important as a lot of decks manage to stabilize the board situation only when their life total is very low.

Cutting the Siege-Gang Commander results in less explosiveness off your Lackey if you connect. Cutting the SGC assumes your Lackey will rarely hit in favor of a more accelerated midgame (No more double SGC clogging your hand), but with less reach in the end against random things like Moat or a wall of large creatures. SGC also allows you to Machine Gun your way through smaller creatures, or puts them at a huge liability when their life total drops into single digits. It's important to note that extra Siege-Gang Commanders have lowered the need for cards like Goblin Sharpshooter.

Cutting the Tin-Street Hooligan results in less resilience against potentially problematic cards like Umezawa's Jitte, Aether Vial, Sword of Fire and Ice, Chalice of the Void, and Pithing Needle. It's less versatile than Fanatic and less of a wrecking ball than SGC, as against some decks its ability is dead and it's simply a 2/1 beater (Albeit sometimes a 2/1 hasted beater for R.) More Tin-Street Hooligans makes Angel Stompy and White Weenie decks far more winnable, as Silver Knight can be overwhelmed if he's unequipped, and it makes rogue aggro decks like Faerie Stompy somewhat manageable. (Note, Eldariel, I said somewhat.:cool:)

I chose to cut the Tin-Street because I liked it just a little less than the other two. Also, Tin-Street's the only one of the group that requires I have green on the board to use to its full capacity (I often don't want nonbasics in the mirror if I'm short on land), and I can Matron-Tutor for it if I need to pick off an artifact badly enough.

Thoughts?

[Eldariel]

For me, it's real simple:
I don't think Mogg Fanatic can be cut. Why? Because you only run 4 MD answers to a Lackey in the mirror on the draw. There's no reason to lose mirrors to opponent just having the Lackey, so at the very least, I want 4 Fanatics to deal with it. Also, the additional reach I find really important. Manacurve reasons weight in a lot too. Basically, I think the deck just hums much better at 4 Fanatics than at 3 or 2 or 1.

Tin Street Hooligan can't be cut. Or at least I wouldn't. Once the Lackey doesn't connect, the mirror comes down to mana superiority, and with both decks packing 8 mana disruption lands to slow down the pace of the game, Vial is the defining factor. Also, WW-like decks are easy to beat once the equipment is dealt with. I've won through double Silver Knight, double Soltari Priest rather easily (Vial) just because I was able to destroy his two Jittes. Also, Faerie Stompy, while more adept at racing (due to the bigger creatures) will still have issues keeping up with you if you can take out the Chalice protecting him from REBs, and of course, Tin Street can dig you out from the hole that is Sword of Fire and Ice. But most important I find the mirrorbreaking power this guy possesses. That, and the fact that he gives an answer to just about every MD card that might lock us out of the game (with the sole exception of Solitary Confinement). He also compliments our mana denial plan against decks using Moxes, a big gap in the deck's armor presently. We can hit opponent's manabase hard, but not the Moxes. I think it's important to deal with that.

I don't want to cut Siege-Gang Commander. You already made lots of good cases. I'll add to that, SGC is the single card we have to recover from Wrath and it's incredible in the mirror, and provides us with means to deal direct damage, something we're lacking in otherwise. Basically, he finishes the games so I really want to have him available when the time comes.


In addition to my choice of the Warchief, there're two other alternatives, I'd consider:
Gempalm Incinerator: Worse curvedrop than Mogg Fanatic and less useful against non-aggro deck, but our only means of taking out big creatures (save Commander). Also inherent card advantage if it ever kills anything and a beater. I'd still prefer Fanatic over him.
Goblin Piledriver: Yea, he's awesome and wins games and all that, but he's kinda poor play on turn 2 and he gets blocked always. Good for those wins out of the blue (Warchief-Piledriver-Piledriver) and kills against combo, but otherwise kinda meh.

The rest:
Goblin Lackey: The single reason we can win against combo, and a huge threat to every deck in the format, can make opponent do horrible blocks, allows forcing damage through and when unchecked, the best Lotus ever.
Goblin Matron: What can I say, pure card advantage, does anything your deck has the potency to. Also chains into...
Goblin Ringleader: The reason the deck is so strong, it just draws you a fistful of new Goblins while beating some ass. The reason we win aggro- and control-MUs.


I actually think cutting a single Ringleader would make for an interesting experiment as you still have Matrons to chain into Ringleaders, and Siege-Gangs for the superior midgame. Cutting a Lackey is an interesting prospect, but not worth it really (there's always a better alternative) and Matrons are really the basic engine of the deck.

I could consider dropping some of those cards if we had access to singletons, but the issue is, this list is so crammed that we don't. A singleton Pyromancer would make the loss of a Piledriver far less relevant, a singleton Goblin Sharpshooter would make Gempalm much more manageable and a singleton Goblin Tinkerer would make dropping a Tin Street easy, but we don't have room for any of those (and yes, I'm considering running Tinkerer/2 Tin Street-set up, it has some advantages, mostly the Vial-chainability and repeatable usability).

[Bovinious]

I also decided to cut a Tin-Street, I figure that no artifact is going to instantly make me lose so I can at least Matron for it if needed, and also the thing about needing a green mana. It was mostly just not being able to bring myself to cut a Fanatic or SGC i guess.

[Jak]

Well I think we also need to look at what tin street does. What weak MUs it helps out against and do the same for mogg.

Tin Street
faerie stompy (equipment)
affinity (anything)
AS (equipment)

Mogg
AS (MoM)

Now I may of missed a few, but Tin Street as a 3 of just seems better and helps in MUs that are 50-50 or worse. Mogg can pick off Dark Confidant, but do decks where he is in bother us. I know mogg is good for additional removal, but there are so many artifacts that hurt gobs. As for creatures, not so many that are x/1. If I missed any let me know because I am not thinking real well today.

[kicks_422]

You forgot that Fanatic kills Lackey. And if you don't kill a Confidant, he might just draw the opponent into a Plague/answers for you.

[Tacosnape]

I actually think cutting a single Ringleader would make for an interesting experiment as you still have Matrons to chain into Ringleaders, and Siege-Gangs for the superior midgame.

Again, I think it's all what matchups you want to make slightly worse and what you want to lean towards tutoring for with Matron. I'd be scared to go in to a heavy control match without four Ringleaders, as chaining Ringleader into Ringleader and refilling your hand more times than they can handle is solid. (I've been known to go Lackey into Ringleader over SGC or Warchief against control decks I knew would sweep the board before I got them near death. No idea if anyone else does this.)

Cutting a Warchief is also scary against a lot of control, as haste lets you steal a lot of quick damage before things like Pyroclasm/Infest/Whatever can sweep your board.

Another strike against Tin Street (Why do we keep wanting to hyphenate Tin-Street? I just realized it's Tin Street. Sheesh.) is that, like Warchief and SGC, you need two Non-Waste/Port lands to get the maximum effect out of him, and you can't vial him out and reap the benefits of his CIP effect.

I do agree that cutting a Ringleader might be worth an unbiased experiment. It would lower the mana curve, but dull the deck's card advantage a bit (Which definitely fits the thread's title, Is card advantage better than speed?)

I just can't cut a Siege-Gang Commander (Maybe that's why we hyphenate Tin-Street. Because Goblin players naturally want to hyphenate badass creatures thanks to Siege-Gang Commander) though. I'm the guy who experimented for awhile with four Siege-Gangs, and I still advocate it in Mono-Red builds that maindeck Pyrokinesis. But three is my comfort zone for R/G.

[Jak]

You forgot that Fanatic kills Lackey. And if you don't kill a Confidant, he might just draw the opponent into a Plague/answers for you.

But we can already win that MU pretty easily, especially postboard with grips coming in. Killing lackey is too good though, but I would want my chances of drawing Tin Street to kill the jitte to be higher. I have no problems getting 2 non-colorless mana sources by the third turn. I mean I play 6 fetches, 5 mountains, and 4 taigas. So that is not a problem at all. It is just what you want your MUs to be better for I guess, which is meta dependant, so whatever. Personal prefrence. What do your guys SBs look like for combo. 4CoTV and 4 REBs or 4 Pillars. What? SB is really all I am tweaking right now.

[Bane of the Living]

For me, it's real simple:
I don't think Mogg Fanatic can be cut. Why? Because you only run 4 MD answers to a Lackey in the mirror on the draw. There's no reason to lose mirrors to opponent just having the Lackey, so at the very least, I want 4 Fanatics to deal with it. Also, the additional reach I find really important. Manacurve reasons weight in a lot too. Basically, I think the deck just hums much better at 4 Fanatics than at 3 or 2 or 1.


I've always sideboarded Lackey out against the mirror. The amount of times he connects in the matchup are ridiculously low and any other option usually amounts to more pressure.

My vote is on 3 Fanatics. He's the weakest card in the deck dispite all the arguements made for him. That wont change until we add a worse goblin. He's also the first thing you want to cut when adding Chalice from the board.

[Eldariel]

I've always sideboarded Lackey out against the mirror. The amount of times he connects in the matchup are ridiculously low and any other option usually amounts to more pressure.

My vote is on 3 Fanatics. He's the weakest card in the deck dispite all the arguements made for him. That wont change until we add a worse goblin. He's also the first thing you want to cut when adding Chalice from the board.

I side out Piledriver. He's pretty irrelevant in the mirror and curvewise, you always have Incinerator and Tin Street for the 2-slot, so I want to keep lots in the 1-slot (if I can make an opponent Incinerate my Lackey, I'm a happy man, since that's one less dead Warchief).

[Jak]

What do you guys do when you board for thresh, iggy, solidarity, and the mirror? I think I have been making the right decisions like:

Solidarity
-3 moggs, -4 incinerators, and -1 tin street. In goes 4 CotV, and 4 pillars

Thresh
-3 mogg, -1 tin street. In goes 4 CotV. Should pyrokinesis be here too?

Iggy
Same as solidarity

Mirror
Don't know what to board out for prokinesis. Probably lackey.

Any other MUs for SBing I didn't mention would help too.

[Eldariel]

Against combo? -X Incinerators, -X Ringleaders, rest off random utility slots (in our case Tin Street Hooligan). Matrons might be useful, but Ringleaders never factor in unless you're forced to keep subpar hands, which wouldn't win anyways even with Ringleader.

In the mirror, the correct board is to take out Piledrivers. They're your weakest card.

[Bane of the Living]

Sean Mckeown had this to say about Stingscorger in his Machical Hack article on SCG..

Goblin decks pretty much auto-add a Goblin-o'War, as a useful tool for getting Threshold-plumped creatures like Werebear and Mystic Enforcer out of the way so they can continue their aggressive push. The de-facto “best deck” in Legacy automatically changes by at least one card thanks to Planar Chaos, with little to no disagreement.

He isnt a rampant name in the Legacy community but he seems brutally sure this card belongs in goblins. I tend to disagree with him and especially his arguement since Threshold is already a favorable matchup for us. That and because Id much rather Matron up card advantage (leader) or muscle (SGC) in the face of a couple Werebears.

[Jak]

Yeah I think the deck is already pretty tight on spots. And in the legacy meta right now, goblins can handle every creature with there removal. I don't see this card getting played either. Unless reanimator comes back to make a big splash.

[Tacosnape]

Stingscourger doesn't solve any problem that Gempalm Incinerator can't solve, short of like, Darksteel Colossus, and Gempalm Incinerator's harder to counter and draws you a card versus Stingscourger being able to do his thing on a clear board. I've played thousands of games with goblins and lost to Darksteel Colossus only once (Pre-Salvagers Gamekeeper), and I find I'd rather play to win with Gempalm than play to not lose with Stingscourger. And the Echo's pretty bad. I think it's worse than IB Halfheart for dealing with medium-sized threats, and IB Halfheart didn't quite earn his stripes.

EDIT: I just read the part about cutting the Piledrivers in the mirror. I'm a big fan of leaving a single Piledriver in and only cutting three, as being able to Matron for that Driver when you need it is worth its weight in gold. I couldn't, however, find something to cut for the fourth Pyrokinesis (I had the best luck cutting a Port, but in my brain this seems unsound), so I dropped my board count to 3 Pyrokinesis and added a fourth Krosan Grip. Thoughts on this strategy and/or suggestions as to what the fourth cut might be if you want to keep a single Piledriver in?

[Eldariel]

I do the same seeing that I only SB Pyrokinesis. Basically, I realized that the mirror doesn't really come down to Pyrokinesis, but Vial and Ringleader-advantage, so I rather don't side in too many Pyrokinesis. 3 I can manage (since the card does win a lot, especially if opponent is dumb enough to play Goblin King (I've won a billion games with killing some dudes in response to Goblin King and riding opponent's King to victory)) and kinda like. But yea, artifact removal is the king in the mirror.

As for Sean McKeown, he operates from the assumption that Threshold is a common deck. While it's usually present, it's not common enough to warrant slots. And Tin Street Hooligan is again better against Threshold, since it gives you the means to kill Pithing Needles to enable Vials. Note that Threshold/R is an issue though, so having hate for Thres isn't really a bad idea, but Goblin o' War isn't just what the deck is looking for; Threshold's beaters save Mystic Enforcer are cheap and easily recastable, so while the tempo advantage can win a game or two, there are simply stronger cards for the slot (Ib Halfheart, as said, is a good card for beating Thres). I definitely would never play without SB Tormod's Crypts and Chalices though.

[Bane of the Living]

Im wondering what makes cutting Piledriver in the mirror the correct choice. What makes him so bad? Is it because he's always chumped and traded with? I've got a whole shit ton of experience with the deck, and this seemed to be the right tactic in the decks battles through Extended and Standard. However Legacy brings us Goblin Lackey and I've found him much worse than driver in the mirror. At the least driver will kill anything that does block it, or absorb a gempalm to save Warchief from one. Lackey dies to Fanatic, then you lose another goblin via his point of damage.

Would the best option be to leave 2 of each? Letting you randomly draw into one via leader or matron either up. Id still want to leave at least one Lackey in the case he would connect, like wise for driver. What do you guys think?

[Eldariel]

Im wondering what makes cutting Piledriver in the mirror the correct choice. What makes him so bad? Is it because he's always chumped and traded with? I've got a whole shit ton of experience with the deck, and this seemed to be the right tactic in the decks battles through Extended and Standard. However Legacy brings us Goblin Lackey and I've found him much worse than driver in the mirror. At the least driver will kill anything that does block it, or absorb a gempalm to save Warchief from one. Lackey dies to Fanatic, then you lose another goblin via his point of damage.

Would the best option be to leave 2 of each? Letting you randomly draw into one via leader or matron either up. Id still want to leave at least one Lackey in the case he would connect, like wise for driver. What do you guys think?

Basically, Piledriver will never connect against a competent opponent, the ground will either be littered with creatures or you've won anyways, making Piledriver either a 2/2 for 2 or a win-more in just about all sitiuations. It's the natural card to cut, especially 3 of them since you still have one to Matron for. Lackey will absorb lots of opponent's removal-spells and randomally win games, as well as give you an actual CURVE instead of having only 4 1-drop Goblins.

[Jak]

What do your sideboards look like. I am having trouble deciding between pyroblast or pillar. Here is my sideboard currently.

4 chalice
4 pillar
4 pyrokinesis
3 grip

I just can't decide. Would you want the proactive or reactive. I like being able to force my chalice through, but it becomes dead if I have a chalice @1 out. Or you could go with the possibility of chalice getting countered, but then you just lay down pillar. Testing hasn't shown me much and I need help on the decision.

And also for the mirror SB, I have been taking out 3 piledrivers and 1 lackey. Do you think that is a good plan?

[Tacosnape]

What do your sideboards look like. I am having trouble deciding between pyroblast or pillar. Here is my sideboard currently.

4 chalice
4 pillar
4 pyrokinesis
3 grip

And also for the mirror SB, I have been taking out 3 piledrivers and 1 lackey. Do you think that is a good plan?

I don't run either. I run Tormod's Crypt. It helps against Iggy if not Solidarity, helps against Threshold, helps against random Loam-based decks that all usually have a ton of goblin control, and stops random decks like Reanimator from slaughtering the green version of the deck (You tend to miss STP when Akroma comes down.) Plus, Crypt comes down for zero, so it doesn't require you to deviate from beating face with Goblins as fast as humanly possible.

My sideboard currently is:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrokinesis

I only run 3 Pyrokinesis so I can leave a single Piledriver in with Goblins. I don't agree with cutting a Lackey ever if you're on the play the next game, but on the draw it doesn't seem like an awful idea. Still, I'd rather have the fourth grip for Plague/Humility/Jitte/Confinement/Deed/Whatever.

Assuming you don't want to run Crypt (And most people prefer the extra hate for Solidarity specifically), I'd say Pillar's the stronger choice. I say this for several reasons. One, as you say, it's active, meaning you don't have to ever worry about leaving mana open, which Goblins shouldn't ever have to do against combo. Two, it does more once it's down (Solidarity -has- to remove it, Iggy can go around it but requires them to watch their life total closely.) Three, it's in your 2-Drop slot, which isn't overcrowded in the deck.

[Eldariel]

I personally prefer to have a bit more versatility to tackle a wider avariety of strategies instead of focusing on raping a single strategy. Here's what I'm running presently:

3 Krosan Grip
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Pyrokinesis

I really think Crypt is an important part of the SB, but the additional combo-hate is relevant too. I'd really want to have the Blasts available, but I guess the combo-MU takes priority. Thinking of going 2 Crypt-3 Pillar, but Crypt is the only graveyard-hate in the deck so...

[Hanni]

Beserk on Piledriver seems like it could be decent against the mirror (as long as they don't have Incinerator or something). Has anyone given this any thought at all?

[calosso]

Beserk on Piledriver seems like it could be decent against the mirror (as long as they don't have Incinerator or something). Has anyone given this any thought at all?

I haven't personally tested it, but it seems that rancor is better because berserk is only good when u have piledriver and a ton of goblins, where as rancor is good on any goblin.

[AnwarA101]

Beserk on Piledriver seems like it could be decent against the mirror (as long as they don't have Incinerator or something). Has anyone given this any thought at all?

I thought the mirror was all about card advantage and abusing vial more than the quick kill. Am I wrong?

[calosso]

I thought the mirror was all about card advantage and abusing vial more than the quick kill. Am I wrong?

No, you are not wrong. Which is why you tend to matron for gempalm.

But maybe Hanni has discovered something we haven't.

[Tacosnape]

Beserk on Piledriver seems like it could be decent against the mirror (as long as they don't have Incinerator or something). Has anyone given this any thought at all?

I used to run Berserk, but I ran into the dilemma of "What do you board out?" Besides, as all other Goblin decks are running Pyrokinesis itself, this seems dangerous. We already couldn't keep Rancor in for the trample factor. Berserk seems no better, or possibly worse. It also doesn't help the Combo match out all that much despite what might be deduced. The speeding up on a goldfish is minimal.

It should however be noted that Berserk has four other solid targets in the mirror - your opponent's Goblin Lackeys. If their Lackey's going to connect, you can spend a G, take the extra 1, and be rid of it after it drops out its threat.

[Eldariel]

Berserk on Lackey is hardly effective, since even in the mirror, you don't really want a Lackey connecting (the tempoloss is still incredibly huge if they drop even just a 3-drop; that's basically a timewalk for them). It can kill Warchiefs for 4 damage though, which shouldn't be overlooked, but that requires you to leave green mana open for your opponent's turn, and it's simple enough for them not to attack with Warchief. Anyway, Rancor would be what I'd run if I didn't run so many lands. Lands are really the key to winning the mirror once Vials are taken care of, the player with mana to play his spells will win (since the deck can't stop the abilities from resolving, a player left behind manawise before reaching 5 will quickly be overwhelmed).

I've also started questioning the SB-plan of Pyrokinesis. Why don't we just SB more Goblins to empower our Ringleaders, Goblins that are relevant in the mirror like the 4th Gempalm, Sharpshooter, Sparksmith, just the removal-Goblins, few of each. Or even extra SGC. That's how Sonne won his title.

Also, with 24 lands, I've begun thinking if we want an additional piece of LD;
Dust Bowl. I tried it in a version with Ancient Tomb and i'll have to say that it was pretty incredible, but without the Tomb-generated mana, it might be harder to find mana to operate it. Still, it turns every one of your lands into a Stone Rain, which is pretty strong in the case of a manaflood or just midgame (or non-basic heavy opponent like anything control).

[calosso]

[QUOTE=Eldariel;108147]
I've also started questioning the SB-plan of Pyrokinesis. Why don't we just SB more Goblins to empower our Ringleaders, Goblins that are relevant in the mirror like the 4th Gempalm, Sharpshooter, Sparksmith, just the removal-Goblins, few of each. Or even extra SGC. That's how Sonne won his title.

QUOTE]

Why the hell aren't you running the 4th gempalm in the main? Do you not like winning the mirror match? Or do you just like losing to huge ass creatures?

[Eldariel]

I've also started questioning the SB-plan of Pyrokinesis. Why don't we just SB more Goblins to empower our Ringleaders, Goblins that are relevant in the mirror like the 4th Gempalm, Sharpshooter, Sparksmith, just the removal-Goblins, few of each. Or even extra SGC. That's how Sonne won his title.



Why the hell aren't you running the 4th gempalm in the main? Do you not like winning the mirror match? Or do you just like losing to huge ass creatures?

'cause I find 24th land and 3rd Tin Street Hooligan more important, even in the mirror (since Vial is stronger than Incinerator in the mirror, so killing opponent's Vial and having enough lands to cast spells should=winning). If I was building a variant just to win the mirror, I'd remove Piledrivers, but the mirror still isn't the hardest MU, combo is (along with big critters), so I'd rather have the tools to win there. Believe me when I say I'd love to fit 4 Gempalms in, but effectively I'd just be playing an inferior deck then, as it'd require cutting an even more creature.

[Happy Gilmore]

[quote=Eldariel;108147]
I've also started questioning the SB-plan of Pyrokinesis. Why don't we just SB more Goblins to empower our Ringleaders, Goblins that are relevant in the mirror like the 4th Gempalm, Sharpshooter, Sparksmith, just the removal-Goblins, few of each. Or even extra SGC. That's how Sonne won his title.

QUOTE]

Why the hell aren't you running the 4th gempalm in the main? Do you not like winning the mirror match? Or do you just like losing to huge ass creatures?


...

For once you might be right. SB SGC #3 seems good against many decks that try to control your explosiveness, like Grow. I agree with Calosso (:rolleyes: ) on having 4x Gempalm in the main. Many of the goblin decks that are splashing white in our meta have Swords in the SB, not in the main. I don't know if this is good or bad, but it is def. worth noting the trend toward a true splash for sideboards only.

[Tacosnape]

The problem with loading up the last sideboard slots with things like Sparksmith and Sharpshooter for the mirror is that Pyrokinesis is a lot more useful against certain random non-mirror decks. It's interesting and worth trying them, I suppose.

What about the bizarre option of taking the R/G Tin-Street packing deck and turning the Manabase into something like:

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
2 Plateau
3 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

And having a sideboard consisting of:

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Krosan Grip
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pillar/Crypt/Whatever
2 Goblin Mirror Card (Pyrokinesis/Sparksmith/Sharpshooter)

This would give us a weapon against giant reanimator targets, Silver Knight, or any other random goblin-eating problem creature. (Razormane, Plague Spitter, etc.) Does it hurt the manabase too much?

[Happy Gilmore]

The problem with loading up the last sideboard slots with things like Sparksmith and Sharpshooter for the mirror is that Pyrokinesis is a lot more useful against certain random non-mirror decks. It's interesting and worth trying them, I suppose.

What about the bizarre option of taking the R/G Tin-Street packing deck and turning the Manabase into something like:

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
2 Plateau
3 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

And having a sideboard consisting of:

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Krosan Grip
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pillar/Crypt/Whatever
2 Goblin Mirror Card (Pyrokinesis/Sparksmith/Sharpshooter)

This would give us a weapon against giant reanimator targets, Silver Knight, or any other random goblin-eating problem creature. (Razormane, Plague Spitter, etc.) Does it hurt the manabase too much?

Its exaclty as you said, bizarre. Your mana base now rivals Landstill as being the most unstable in Legacy, GG. Personally my inclination is to run the green version and not worry about loosing STP. Chalice plus Crypt is excellent vs. Grow and Hooligan can swing the game against any of the equipment based stompy decks.

[Eldariel]

I don't really fear any creatures so much that I'd want to play StP. Pro-red creatures are just a small delay if you deal with the equipment (I think I told about some of those games time and time again; multiple Silver Knights and Soltari Priests and Jittes, but as long as I kept the Jittes dead, I just won), most creatures are very Gempalmable and Crypt is on the SB to deal with reanimator-decks, all the stupid Loam-control decks, Thres (if you read the MU-report from Bardo and Machinus, it's pretty apparent how awesome Crypt is), etc. Also, Chalice, Crypt and Pillar is a pretty hefty package to fight Iggy-Pop and Chalice and Pillar is still quite good against Solidarity, although I can see people wanting the two extra Pillars in for that MU, and especially any combo not mentioned here (like TES; in such an MU I'd want Chalice at 0 and a Pyrostatic Pillar in play). And of course, Krosan Grip against any deck with equipment (especially Jitte), problem enchantments (Plague, Confinement, Humility, you know the drill) and Pyrokinesis (the slot I'm not sure about) against the mirror, overall against decks with small creatures (keyword being small; I would never bring it in against Faerie Stompy for example as I'd be trading 1-for-2 and making my Ringleaders less relevant AND weakening my overall gameplan just to have an extra removal-spell that might, or might not, work).

[Jak]

So I really want to get 3 crypts in there or 4. What would you recommend I cut for them.

4 Chalice
3 Grip
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Pillar

Would a SB like this be better?

4 chalice
3 grip
2 pillar
3 crypt
3 pyrokinesis

[calosso]

So I really want to get 3 crypts in there or 4. What would you recommend I cut for them.

4 Chalice
3 Grip
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Pillar

Would a SB like this be better?

4 chalice
3 grip
2 pillar
3 crypt
3 pyrokinesis

Why do you want crypt so badly? Do you want it against threshold, because Ib Halfheart is way better in the board. I guess it can be sided against Iggy pop but chalice and pillar is all you really need, and when is the last time Reanimator has been close to top 8, since GP Philly.

[Jak]

Well there is Life from the Loam it helps against and I hate losing to that deck. So many people tend to be using it, so I tested and it helped out a lot against graveyard strategies such as loam. It just has uses for a lot of decks.

[Tacosnape]

Its exaclty as you said, bizarre. Your mana base now rivals Landstill as being the most unstable in Legacy, GG. Personally my inclination is to run the green version and not worry about loosing STP. Chalice plus Crypt is excellent vs. Grow and Hooligan can swing the game against any of the equipment based stompy decks.

That's kind of how I felt about it, too. I just wanted to throw it out there.


Why do you want crypt so badly? Do you want it against threshold, because Ib Halfheart is way better in the board. I guess it can be sided against Iggy pop but chalice and pillar is all you really need, and when is the last time Reanimator has been close to top 8, since GP Philly.

In counterpoint, what on earth do you want Pyrostatic Pillar for except Solidarity? (EDIT: Do people board it in against Threshold, on a side note? This might make more of a case for it. I've never tried doing so.) Crypt does just as well against almost every other combo deck, and a lot of super-fast storm decks that are Crypt impervious can Tendrils their way through Pillar. I'd venture to make the point that Crypt is extremely more versatile than Pillar, and Crypt doesn't slow you down at all, so you can keep your mana focused on playing your Goblins. If we've learned anything from Chris Pikula, it's that versatile cards are strong.

[Jak]

Pillar does have its uses like against Thresh as you said, Burn, IGGy, and Solidarity. So it is a hard decision. I think I am just going to keep testing Pillar and then Crypt.

[Tacosnape]

On a sideboard-related note, it's also worth pointing out that if you're going to run 2 or more Pyroblasts, it should be split evenly with Red Elemental Blast. In other words, if you're going to put 2 slots to it, run one Pyro and one REB, for 4 slots run 2 and 2, and for 3 slots run 2 and 1. This will keep you from it randomly being stopped by Meddling Mage (or Cabal Therapy if there's some rogue Black-Blue deck that runs it). Plus there's no drawback to running the split.

[Bovinious]

Actually, there is a downside to running Pyroblast, it says "target spell/permanent if its blue" not "target blue" so the blue player could misdirect Pyroblast to something that isn't blue, making it fizzle, while REB can only target something blue. Since Misdirection isn't commonly played I wouldnt worry but it is worse than REB technically.

[Tacosnape]

Actually, there is a downside to running Pyroblast, it says "target spell/permanent if its blue" not "target blue" so the blue player could misdirect Pyroblast to something that isn't blue, making it fizzle, while REB can only target something blue. Since Misdirection isn't commonly played I wouldnt worry but it is worse than REB technically.

Okay, minimal drawback. Seeing as how virtually nobody runs Misdirection, I didn't factor that in, but since this whole discussion is based on extremely rare situations anyway, you're right. It's as valid a point as any. It'll get Meddling Maged far more than it will get Misdirected, but I'd say based on your point that if you run 3, then the 2 of should be REB and the 1 of should be Pyroblast. For the most part though, outside of Solidarity, where you can Hydroblast your own islands to increase storm count, the "if" rarely if ever comes into play.

[Lego]

Actually, there is a downside to running Pyroblast, it says "target spell/permanent if its blue" not "target blue" so the blue player could misdirect Pyroblast to something that isn't blue, making it fizzle, while REB can only target something blue. Since Misdirection isn't commonly played I wouldnt worry but it is worse than REB technically.

This isn't a valid argument, because they can Misdirect the Red Elemental Blast to target the Misdirection.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think at this point in Legacy you're actually much more likely to encounter a Skulking Ghost than a Misdirection.


In reality, a 2/2 or 2/3 split is best because of Therapy/Meddling Mage.

Pyroblast, it should be noted, has much better art.

[Eldariel]

This isn't a valid argument, because they can Misdirect the Red Elemental Blast to target the Misdirection.

Present REB is modal, so if you choose it to destroy a permanent, it can only be Misdirected to other blue permanents. If you counter, it can be Misdirected, of course.

[Tao]

I think the discussion is pointless. REB and Pyroblast are Sideboard cards.

Which deck would have Misdirection in their 60 cards after boarding against Goblins?

[Bane of the Living]

So heres a little more food for thought..

A) If you were taking Green Goblin to GP Columbus tomorrow what would your build and sideboard look like?

B) What innovations or modern updates will Thresh and Solidarity have ready for this event?

[Jak]

A) I would keep my build the same. The SB has been working good for me so I am not planning on adding Crypts.

B) I really don't know what Thresh will change. Probably more builds will be running red for the better gobs MU. I don't know what solidarity would change.

[calosso]

A) I would keep my build the same. The SB has been working good for me so I am not planning on adding Crypts.

B) I really don't know what Thresh will change. Probably more builds will be running red for the better gobs MU. I don't know what solidarity would change.

Thresh will not change colors for a better goblins match. They will stay white because it has a better game against the field.

[Jak]

Just a thought since Goblins is going to be the most played deck.

[Firebrothers]

So heres a little more food for thought..


B) What innovations or modern updates will Thresh and Solidarity have ready for this event?



I think some guys in my area are testing snap in the sideboard. I dont know if this is 'tech' or not but you could buy them an extra turn against goblins if they snap a warchief or something.

[Tacosnape]

Mogg Fanatic and Siege-Gang Commander both totally own Snap.

Snap is interesting. In theory, it's a fantastic card. But all too often it finds its target missing and fails to untap your lands at a crucial time. As a solidarity player, I would be more tempted to play Snap against things like Meddling Mage, to where I could see if it resolved before committing myself to going off that turn. (If it resolves, all your land is still open)

But Goblins ability to sacrifice its own cards will, I think, make Snap far too inconsistent to make a big difference.

[Happy Gilmore]

Thresh will not change colors for a better goblins match. They will stay white because it has a better game against the field.

In the past I felt this was true, but now I am not so sure. In testing Ancent Grudge out of the board has improved many of the matchups I felt were unfavorable. And even against decks with creatures bigger than x/3 I've been doing just fine. Either way, UGR will be at major tournaments. Expect it, prepare for it. But remember you will still be better off boarding a more versitile board. If you bring in crypt vs. Iggy pop they are going to have to board needle or your clock comes online before they can effectively kill you. And Chalice can def. slow them down.

In other words start with

4x Chalice
3x Crypt

and go from there. These two cards are good vs. most of the field.

[Zilla]

Please keep your personal chat sessions and off-topic one-liners confined elsewhere. The LMF is for serious, on-topic discussion. Pull it together.

[Eldariel]

Ok, so anyone else has opinions on the mirror sideboarding? I'm personally considering switching from 3xPyrokinesis (awesome, but not a Goblin, little use outside the mirror match-up and forces me to sub out Goblins in a card advantage-based MU) to 1xTin Street Hooligan, 1xGempalm Incinerator and 1xSiege-Gang Commander (I run 3 Tin Streets and Gempalms and 2 Siege-Gangs in the main), bringing more useful Goblins in over Piledrivers and allowing me to tune numbers against decks (like, no Ringleaders and lots of SGCs against combo, only 1 Tin Street against artifactless decks, the ability to sub in 4th Gempalm, etc.I), other than the mirror. Few cards I'm interested about:
-Goblin Sharpshooter, how has this been treating you in the mirror? Win/lose lots of mirrors because of it? In my experience, it's rather poor in the mirror, but I haven't playtested it heavily, so I'd like opinions from someone who's played with him for years.
-Pyrokinesis, now I've tested it a lot, but I just want others' opinions, is it really all that and then some? Awesome mana, and card advantage, sure, you often get 3-for-2 and for free too, or at least 2-for-2, but once you start to get to midgame and Ringleader through your library, having your Ringleaders hit one less Goblin than your opponent's is probably going to cost you the game.
-Goblin King/Goblin Pyromancer/whatever, how're they in the mirror? They have symmetrical effects so I figure you could use them for tricks (I've done so), but are they really worth it? Goblin King can backfire in a horrible way to some unseen Pyrokinesis or such and Goblin Pyromancer can just armageddon the board for them to swing through, or just do a whole lot of heaping nothing thanks to few nosy Mogg Fanatics. But when they win, they play a huge part in that.

Anyone has anything on anything?

[Tacosnape]

I did a lot of mirror testing both on workstation and against Markbris recently. I came to the following conclusions.

1. Pyrokinesis is very good. It may not be the absolute nuts, but it is very good. Nailing any two of Warchief/Siege-Gang/Piledriver is a pretty solid setup. Also, I don't think I'm a fan of nailing the Lackey alone with Pyrokinesis. I found this didn't really improve my situation enough to make much difference.

2. Goblin King is and always will be win more. It's only good if you kept all your Piledrivers in.

3. I found myself wanting a Goblin Sharpshooter. A lot. Even as a single tutor slot. Granted, I often couldn't see my opponent's hand to know the exact result this would have had, but I untapped quite often with a Warchief on the board with mass goblin stall on both sides.

4. For the games I didn't want a Goblin Sharpshooter, I was either crushing my opponent or getting crushed and wanting a Pyromancer. I couldn't always cast the Pyromancer, but at times I could. I think if I had to pick though, I'd take Sharpshooters over Pyromancers to win the close ones.

5. Fire//Ice is pretty good in the Vial Goblins mirror if you stick a Volcanic in the deck. Yes, I played against a Red-Blue Goblin deck online. Fire takes down any goblin known to mankind and frequently slaughtered my Warchiefs, and Ice gets Lackey through any blocker in existence while simultaneously drawing a card.

[Eldariel]

I did a lot of mirror testing both on workstation and against Markbris recently. I came to the following conclusions.

1. Pyrokinesis is very good. It may not be the absolute nuts, but it is very good. Nailing any two of Warchief/Siege-Gang/Piledriver is a pretty solid setup. Also, I don't think I'm a fan of nailing the Lackey alone with Pyrokinesis. I found this didn't really improve my situation enough to make much difference.

How did it affect the Ringleaders? Were you happy with 29 Goblins over 32?


2. Goblin King is and always will be win more. It's only good if you kept all your Piledrivers in.

Yea, I'm inclined to stay out of it too, although saying it's a win more is strictly not true as it allows even far inferior army to swing right through the blockers for the kill, stealing lots of games. I'd rather say it's 'far too risky and overall unwanted play to use'.


3. I found myself wanting a Goblin Sharpshooter. A lot. Even as a single tutor slot. Granted, I often couldn't see my opponent's hand to know the exact result this would have had, but I untapped quite often with a Warchief on the board with mass goblin stall on both sides.

Sharpshooter is one of those cards I'd love to fit but just can't figure out. It looks promising with the 'lots to your head'-plan and the 'wipe lots of guys'-plan, but I don't know if it'd really be better than Pyrokinesis on the board. Maybe we should try it MD?


4. For the games I didn't want a Goblin Sharpshooter, I was either crushing my opponent or getting crushed and wanting a Pyromancer. I couldn't always cast the Pyromancer, but at times I could. I think if I had to pick though, I'd take Sharpshooters over Pyromancers to win the close ones.

I like Pyromancer although I don't like topdecking it. I distinctly remember turn 2 Warchief, turn 3 Matron-Pyromancer (off a Tomb) FTW against Solidarity in my accelerated build. The card really ends games even though it's something you don't want clogging up your hand and it's ridiculously bad against Stifle. Something to consider again?


5. Fire//Ice is pretty good in the Vial Goblins mirror if you stick a Volcanic in the deck. Yes, I played against a Red-Blue Goblin deck online. Fire takes down any goblin known to mankind and frequently slaughtered my Warchiefs, and Ice gets Lackey through any blocker in existence while simultaneously drawing a card.

Yea, I've always liked the idea of blue splash. Daze seems pretty good actually with all the mana denial and aggression, and Quicksilver Dagger, while janky, can be pretty damn fine, especially on something like Lackey (I actually played a mirror against a janky blue/red build and got totally savaged by Quicksilver Dagger after tapping out for Piledriver on turn 2. Who knew?). The dumbest idea ever, maybe someone should try Goblin Fish just replacing Ringleader-engine with standard Fish-engines to enable non-Goblin cards like Forces and company while still retaining the Vials and Lackeys and cheats. Eh, it's probably horrible, but sounds incredibly fun even if it were totally horrible.

[Tacosnape]

How did it affect the Ringleaders? Were you happy with 29 Goblins over 32?

Sharpshooter is one of those cards I'd love to fit but just can't figure out. It looks promising with the 'lots to your head'-plan and the 'wipe lots of guys'-plan, but I don't know if it'd really be better than Pyrokinesis on the board. Maybe we should try it MD?

Well, for my build, it's 30 over 33 (I run 23 land, 4 Vials, and 33 Goblins). I only hit a Pyrokinesis once in testing. I'm sure the occasion is going to come where I hit double Pyrokinesis and lose as a result, but the question is whether or not I would lose an equal amount of games from having the replacement card for Pyrokinesis in my opening hand/topdecking it. My brain is okay with there being exactly 30 Goblins in my deck for Ringleadering, as all my Ringleaders should average about 2 goblins, including factors both ways of deck thinning from Fetchlands, Matrons, and other Ringleaders.

The conclusion on Pyrokinesis I've come to is that it definitely improves the goblin mirror. The question in my head is if Goblin Sharpshooter does it more.

I hate maindecking a Sharpshooter because I always draw the damn thing at the wrong time. I'll always see it against Solidarity, I'll get it when I have no Warchief to pair it with, and so on. And the fact is that due to the overwhelming amount of Lackey hate in the format and Goblins' ability to ping things for 1, Sharpshooter rarely lives if he's a threat.

However, the Sharpshooter does prove its worth in the mirror if he stays out. He's also great against every random thing known to mankind. He munches on Confidants. He shoots over Ensnaring Bridges and Moats. He picks off Elves and Birds. He can shoot down larger stuff with the help of Mogg Fanatic and Siege-Gang Commander.

The argument against Sharpshooter, however, is Siege-Gang Commander itself. Siege-Gang Commander can do all those things, just not as effectively, but there's no question who the better goblin is if you just want to wreck face.

So, I don't know. I'm still opposed to maindecking it, I think, although I could be swayed out of it (In theory we really should maindeck more utility things like Sparksmith and Sharpshooter based on the fact we have Matron.) I would be intrigued to try 3 Sharpshooter in place of the 3 Pyrokinesis and see what happens, though.

My only fear is dropping a pair of Sharpshooters and watching them get Pyrokinesis'd in the mirror. Ah, the irony.

[Bardu]

Yea, I've always liked the idea of blue splash. Daze seems pretty good actually with all the mana denial and aggression, and Quicksilver Dagger, while janky, can be pretty damn fine, especially on something like Lackey (I actually played a mirror against a janky blue/red build and got totally savaged by Quicksilver Dagger after tapping out for Piledriver on turn 2. Who knew?). The dumbest idea ever, maybe someone should try Goblin Fish just replacing Ringleader-engine with standard Fish-engines to enable non-Goblin cards like Forces and company while still retaining the Vials and Lackeys and cheats. Eh, it's probably horrible, but sounds incredibly fun even if it were totally horrible.

I know this is the Legacy forum, but here is a successful Vintage build utilizing the Fish engine and Lackey as you described. Perhaps it could be ported into Legacy?

1st Place @ Myriad Games, August 19th: Joe Colon
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=29773.0

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Sol Ring
3x Null Rod
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Echoing Truth
3x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
3x Mountain
1x Island
4x Volcanic Island
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Polluted Delta
2x Wooded Foothills
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
3x Goblin Matron
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2x Goblin Warchief
1x Goblin Vandal
2x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Pyroblast

Sideboard:
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Annul
2x Stifle
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Mogg Fanatic
1x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Shattering Spree
1x Goblin Vandal

So, making a few adjustments it might look like:

4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Warchief
3x Siege-Gang Commander

4x Aether Vial

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
4x Brainstorm
3x Fire/Ice

4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
4x Volcanic Island
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothills
5x Mountain

Other toolbox goblins could be: Fanatic, Incinerator, or Tinkerer. Perhaps the Vial wouldn't work as well with fewer goblins. Stifle or Lightning Bolt could also be good. Just brainstorming...

[chmoddity]

Bardu, haven't you read the billion complaints about how broken Ringleader is with Aether Vial? That is why the deck has 30+ Goblins in it. Broke-ass Time Walk and Ancestral Recall could possibly justify the blue, but naturally that is not an option here.

[Jaynel]

Bardu, haven't you read the billion complaints about how broken Ringleader is with Aether Vial? That is why the deck has 30+ Goblins in it. Broke-ass Time Walk and Ancestral Recall could possibly justify the blue, but naturally that is not an option here.

Not to mention 14 blue cards can never support Force of Will reliably.

[Eldariel]

Goblin Fish would have to eschew Ringleader to fit the blue components, but you're just fine off with Matron and SGC for nutty card advantage, along with possibly blue cards like Standstill (Goblins can abuse it so bad, Lackey, Vial, Gempalm, Wasteland, Port, basically either Lackey or Vial is an immediately game-ending threat and you have removal available to boot. Toss in free counters and you'll be fine once opponent breaks the 'Still. Blue also offers Stifle, which looks ugly with the already potent LD package, and Brainstorm isn't bad either. Then the mentioned Fire/Ice looks really good too, and with enough blue cards, being able to play Force...schweet...

Anyway, Ringleader is the only card restricting the deck to play 30+ Goblins, without it you'd be just fine with only a bit over 20 as long as you can fit all you need there (of course it'll mean cutting some keycards, just need to identify, which ones are expendable).

[Tacosnape]

I agree. Standstill is something I actually used to run in this deck. It synergizes beautifully with the rest of the deck and could easily make up for Goblin Ringleader. (I've actually -seen- a Goblin Fish deck, too, however it packed Razorfin Hunter and Sharpshooters as well.)

[Bane of the Living]

What reason do you have to actually go blue? Do you feel like goblins really needs counterspells? Each of those counterspells would do better as threats. The reason decks like thresh have a hard matchup with you is your 30+ goblins. Your looking for some really misey situations there. Lackey into Standstill setups sound amazing if only it would work out for you each time. But I see myself drawing way to many hands like this..

mountain
fetch
fetch
standstill
daze
goblin warchief
goblin matron

yuck. Thats not a best case senario hand but its close to your average 7 cards. I think taking away the decks pro active abilities to turn into a mediocre fish deck is ill justified.

[Eldariel]

What reason do you have to actually go blue? Do you feel like goblins really needs counterspells? Each of those counterspells would do better as threats. The reason decks like thresh have a hard matchup with you is your 30+ goblins. Your looking for some really misey situations there. Lackey into Standstill setups sound amazing if only it would work out for you each time. But I see myself drawing way to many hands like this..

mountain
fetch
fetch
standstill
daze
goblin warchief
goblin matron

yuck. Thats not a best case senario hand but its close to your average 7 cards. I think taking away the decks pro active abilities to turn into a mediocre fish deck is ill justified.

Yea, hands like that would come up, but remember that either Vial OR Lackey is enough of a threat to just drop Standstill right after it, and being able to force through either against just about anything is just going to win, which would be pretty possible with 8 free counters and 8 major threats (Vial would still be strong as uncounterable Matrons, SGCs and Warchiefs are still huge).

[Jak]

So splashing blue would just be for a few counterspells? IMO that is a terrible idea. The only reason I would splash blue would be for stifle in the SB. But we don't need anything in blue. You weaken the deck by turning it into too much control in an aggro deck.

On the SB issue, I think these are definite.

4 CoTV
3 Krosan Grip

I think those are definite in the SB. Now I would put some mirror hate and more combo. Since for the creature hate people are questioning pyrokinesis, even though strong, aint a goblin. So I would go with 1-2 Goblin Sharpshooters. Maybe also Ib or something like that. Any For the extra combo hate I am going to go with 4 Pyrostatic pillar. So that leaves 2 more slots for me. I want to put like Sparksmith or something in. Thoughts?

[Bongo]

While extra Goblins for the mirror are nice, I still recommend 4 Pyrokinesis.

Pyrokinesis>Sharpshooter
your SB plan>your opponents boarding plan


While the blue splash has some potential, you'll weaken one of the best cards in the deck - Aether Vial. Less Goblins, less Vial tricks.
No need to taint your beautiful red decks here.

[Jak]

Does anyone know what the Rb Goblins deck was that was played by Bennet Tom?

[Tacosnape]

I should point out that the deck I was playing against with the blue splash for Fire//Ice had it -just- for Fire//Ice as well as Trickbind in the sideboard for combo. Here's the list for those who might be curious.

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Volcanic Island
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial
3 Fire//Ice

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trickbind (I guess this was in here so Chalice for 1 didn't shut down Stifle?)
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Gempalm Incinerator

Personally I think if I had Fire//Ice I'd ditch the Sharpshooter for another Incinerator or Siege-Gang (Or even another Fire//Ice), but I like the idea behind it. It still runs 31 goblins, as well as something that can pick off two small creatures, get Lackey through almost anything, and provide additional manabase disruption as a one-shot cantrip Rishadan Port (Imagine Lackey into Siege-Gang and then tapping their land on their upkeep!)

[Bardu]

Bardu, haven't you read the billion complaints about how broken Ringleader is with Aether Vial? That is why the deck has 30+ Goblins in it. Broke-ass Time Walk and Ancestral Recall could possibly justify the blue, but naturally that is not an option here.

I didn't say that this build was better than a build w/ Ringleader. I'm not going to stop playing Rg anytime soon. I was just looking at the vintage build and brainstorming.

I agree that Chalice, Krosan Grip, and Pyrokinesis, which I prefer to Goblin Sharpshooter in the mirror, all belong on our sideboard. 1x Pyromancer could be very useful in the mirror.

[mikekelley]

Imagine Teferi in gobs.

Not going to happen, but still. That is the nuts, more nuts than vial once it's in play.

[VaBeachScrub]

I think people aren't appreciating what the mirror looks like now. Your opponent will have Wastelands, Ports, and Hooligans. The player with the mana advantage stands a very good chance of winning. Pyrokinesis is even better now than it was before simply because its 0-mana cost is more relevant than ever.

Land is now key in the mirror match. It makes a good argument for the 23 land builds we've been seeing lately. Hell, it makes a good argument for Life from the Loam; I'll certainly be testing 1x LftL in the board for the mirror. It may not make the cut but it makes a lot of sense in a world where Vials never hit 3.

-------

I can't wait for Columbus . . .

[Tacosnape]

Life From the Loam in Goblins?

That's either the jankiest or the most brilliant thing I've ever heard. I can definitely see the potential for recurring Wasteland, Fetches, and wrecked lands. Hell, it debatably even improves certain other matchups (43 Land) for the ability to Loam up a pair of Wastelands.

[Awesomator]

Ya i can't tell whether it's moronic or genius either. I most likely won't be running it, but I definitely want to hear how well it's been going for you. I think pyrokenesis is plenty for the mirror. My board looks like this right now:
4x Chalice
3x Krosan Grip
3x Pillar
2x Patron of the Akki
3x Pyrokenesis

I moved the sharpshooter to MD replacing the third Seige-Gang for the tournament I'm playing soon because the meta is supposed to be a lot of aggro and survival. All of my testing (which is a lot) has been done without Patron but it seems like it will help some of my poor matchups greatly. some feedback would be awesome

[Eldariel]

My board is the same except I have Tormod's Crypts (3 of them) there over Patrons, and one Pillar. They help against some combo-decks and more importantly, they smashety-smash Loam-decks, Reanimator and Thres

[hagar852]

Would sudden shock be a good sideboard card against combo with the split second. Since after you cast it they can't put any other spells on the stack.

Comments?

[Taurelin]

Would sudden shock be a good sideboard card against combo with the split second. Since after you cast it they can't put any other spells on the stack.

Err, which combo decks do you have in mind? Solidarity? Iggy Pop? TES? Sure they can't cast spells while Sudden Shock is on the stack. So what? It resolves and then they just continue with 2 life less.

[Jak]

Would sudden shock be a good sideboard card against combo with the split second. Since after you cast it they can't put any other spells on the stack.

Comments?


Yeah to what the previous poster said. It doesn't stop them from playing spells that turn, just inresponse to Sudden Shock. It really does nothing besides being uncounterable 2 damage.

I have been wondering about Black. When I was reading some tourney reports and I read that Cabal Therapy was crazy in Bennet Toms build. Would one Badlands be bad and then add 4 Cabal Therapies to the SB instead of Pyrostatic Pillar in my build. I might try to test out this build.

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
2 Badlands
4 Mountains

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander

SB
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pyrokinesis

Now it is 61 cards because I could not bring myself to cut a Tin Street, Fanatic, or Siege-Gang. But it seems like a strong build. Thoughts?

[kicks_422]

Wouldn't Cabal Therapy counteract Chalice of the Void? Or do you plan on Chalice'ing for 0 all the time?

You might as well just cut out 1 Mountain or Taiga to drop your deck to 60 cards, though.

I was waiting for Goblins to go three-color. It was just a matter of time... :tongue:

[Awesomator]

I'm not sure therapy is the way to go.. splashing for a 3rd color seems a bit janky to your mana base and I don't really see when therapy would give you a much bigger edge than pillar. Pillar is also good vs some forms of control. On top of that.. it's less goblins to come up for ringleader in the control matchup.. where pillar will guaranteed get some damage in. Vs combo.. Pillar and chalice are hands down better.

[Tacosnape]

I'm not sure therapy is the way to go.. splashing for a 3rd color seems a bit janky to your mana base and I don't really see when therapy would give you a much bigger edge than pillar. Pillar is also good vs some forms of control. On top of that.. it's less goblins to come up for ringleader in the control matchup.. where pillar will guaranteed get some damage in. Vs combo.. Pillar and chalice are hands down better.

While I agree that Cabal Therapy doesn't necessarily belong in the Green build (I've been wondering if Toms played Chalice as well or not), Therapy is the much stronger card than Pillar. Therapy's one mana, and not only can it get rid of combo pieces, it can also get rid of Engineered Plague, Solitary Confinement, Umezawa's Jitte, or whatever else makes Goblins cry.

Three color goblins can hurt you in the mirror. I did it a while back with White/Green for both STP and Tin-Street Hooligan and quickly found myself getting crushed in mirrors.

You give up a lot through running black, though. You get Therapy, but beyond that, I'm not certain what else. The big three cards people run black for in Legacy are Duress, Therapy, and Plague. Plague -in- goblins seems mindboggling, and I don't know if Duress was present or not (Though I can see Duress/Therapy replacing Chalice/Pillar perhaps.) If it wasn't, it should have been, as Duress/Therapy/SmallCreatures is one of the best disruption packages in magic.

[Eldariel]

Black also gives you:
Dralnu's Crusade (anti-pro red and anti-Engineered Plague in one package)
Duress
Living Death (should be a GG right off the bat, might be useful in some metas/MUs)
Cabal Slaver (some heavy-duty discard against combo)
Extirpate
Dystopia (BB is hard to manage, but you'll probably reach it eventually as decks against which you'd want it generally don't run Wastes, and it's absolutely devastating against a wide array of decks once it hits. It basically handles everything, Dralnu's Crusade already doesn't)

Basically, black gives you discard, and some tricky cards.

Rb or Rg in my opinion, double splash is madness, and mostly unnecessary too. Goblin Tinkerers did fine for Chris Coppola and while I find them inferior to Tin Streets, it's not by so much that I'd be willing to jeopardize my manabase to run both. If Cabal Therapy indeed is as strong an MD-card as it seems (I can imagine knocking out Ringleaders and Siege-Gangs being incredibly powerful in the mirror), it might be that I'll be forced to weaken my manabase (by going down from 24 lands) and go black instead of green.

[Morte]

Black also gives you:
Living Death (should be a GG right off the bat, might be useful in some metas/MUs)

Did you say Patriarch's Bidding (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=26747)? Like the old times...

[Tacosnape]

Cabal Slaver (some heavy-duty discard against combo)


I've been touting this card for years and everyone's always mocked me. It's awful in certain scenarios, but amazing in others.

I don't know that I'd maindeck Therapy. Too much guesswork involved and Therapy and Piledriver aren't exactly the best of friends. I've definitely thought of running them in the board, though. Only problem with that is that Chalice and Therapy aren't the best of friends either and sometimes you just won't draw the Therapy.

[Eldariel]

Did you say Patriarch's Bidding (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=26747)? Like the old times...

I rather enjoy Wrath of God coupled with Bidding. Gets rid of otherwise pesky pro-reds and untargetables and such too. Although it's all rather marginal.

Taco: Yea, I'm not sure an Rb build would want to run Chalice. Chalice amazing, don't get me wrong, but I think the maindeckability of Cabal Therapy really pushes the splash ahead, as a single Therapy can just win games against combo for you, knocking out two of their main business/engine spells (you don't want to cast it turn 1 very often, so the guessing is down to a minimum, and if you have a read on some card your opponent is going, you'll have a fine shot at at least 2-for-2ing him, trading the other card to Goblin Matron or such). I think you might want to couple it with Duress/Pillar or Duress/Slaver or some such from the side. With the increased focus on 1-CC, your Chalices will automatically be weaker. Of course, you could just go ahead and still SB Chalice, setting it at 0 against fast combo with discard ripping the other accelerants apart, and siding it in over Therapies vs. Thres and the like. I don't know what's the best SB for B, but I do know that it sure as heck offers lots of options. Oh yeah, black also has the supreme way of making Lackeys connect; Diabolic Edict. Not a single card in the game can withstand that, including those turn 1 Akromas and other nonsense. Probably not worth it, but cute to note (you haven't lost much due to the lack of access to StP, being my point).

[Tacosnape]

Taco: Yea, I'm not sure an Rb build would want to run Chalice. Chalice amazing, don't get me wrong, but I think the maindeckability of Cabal Therapy really pushes the splash ahead, as a single Therapy can just win games against combo for you, knocking out two of their main business/engine spells (you don't want to cast it turn 1 very often, so the guessing is down to a minimum, and if you have a read on some card your opponent is going, you'll have a fine shot at at least 2-for-2ing him, trading the other card to Goblin Matron or such). I think you might want to couple it with Duress/Pillar or Duress/Slaver or some such from the side. With the increased focus on 1-CC, your Chalices will automatically be weaker. Of course, you could just go ahead and still SB Chalice, setting it at 0 against fast combo with discard ripping the other accelerants apart, and siding it in over Therapies vs. Thres and the like. I don't know what's the best SB for B, but I do know that it sure as heck offers lots of options. Oh yeah, black also has the supreme way of making Lackeys connect; Diabolic Edict. Not a single card in the game can withstand that, including those turn 1 Akromas and other nonsense. Probably not worth it, but cute to note (you haven't lost much due to the lack of access to StP, being my point).

Very good point on the Therapy. I imagine the ultimate move would be connecting Lackey into SGC on turn 2, then casting Therapy and flashing back a Token.

I don't know about Diabolic Edict. The biggest problem in my brain with Diabolic Edict is that it only has a guaranteed clearing-of-the-way on the play, not the draw. On the draw, the opponent is perfectly capable of having 2 creatures down and in the way. If it wasn't for the double mana cost, I'd be all about Ashes to Ashes though, as it would spell GG for a pro-red board.

I'd like to know if Toms maindecked Therapy (I don't think he did, actually) and to see what else he ran, if his maindeck build was just mono-red, etc.

[EDIT] According to www.germagic.de, Bennett Toms' deck was as follows. No idea if this is accurate or not, as 62 cards seems odd to me.

4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
6 Mountain

4 Aether Vial
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Tinkerer

SB:
1 Cabal Therapy
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Shattering Spree
2 Dralnu's Crusade

[Eldariel]

That list is missing two cards MD. I can only assume (and hope), they're Gempalm Incinerators. I think the SB is a bit meh, I'd much rather have Duress over REB, and third Dralnu's Crusade or second Tinkerer over Shattering Spree. But since he won, it can't be that bad. Still, I think REB is a bit old unless you expect tons of Faerie Stompy (and even then, REB over real 2-CC removal can be argued as they probably play Chalice at 1 against you).

EDIT: They have 4 Gempalms there and claim that he played 62 cards. This raises the question: WTF! Is he Wakefield with less lands or something?

[Tacosnape]

That list is missing two cards MD. I can only assume (and hope), they're Gempalm Incinerators. I think the SB is a bit meh, I'd much rather have Duress over REB, and third Dralnu's Crusade or second Tinkerer over Shattering Spree. But since he won, it can't be that bad. Still, I think REB is a bit old unless you expect tons of Faerie Stompy (and even then, REB over real 2-CC removal can be argued as they probably play Chalice at 1 against you).

EDIT: They have 4 Gempalms there and claim that he played 62 cards. This raises the question: WTF! Is he Wakefield with less lands or something?

Fixed. Sorry. They were Gempalms and my post now reflects that. But agreed, the 62 raises the wtf question.

I think if I were going to sixty that out, I'd cut a Siege-Gang Commander and the Tinkerer, as I've never been a fan of Tinkerer and Therapy gives you outs against things like Jitte.

I think the SB is pretty reflective of someone who wasn't planning for Epic Storm in the combo field, as Crypt/REB is pretty nifty for taking care of Solidarity/IGGy Pop when combined with Therapy. The case for REB is actually going back up, with nutbar amounts of decks playing Meddling Mage, Serendib Efreet, and so forth. The random Shattering Spree has a place against FS or the ever rising Stax, and was probably tossed in in much the same way that Solidarity maindecked a Twincast for aeons. You don't -need- it per se, but it's randomly awesome when it shows up.

As for Dranlu's Crusade, I'd be hard pressed to go past two. I count it as a pretty good answer to Plague, but as for pro-red, I'm iffy on it. Here's why. The chief protection from red card in the format is Silver Knight. You still can't Mogg Fanatic him, and you still can't Gempalm him, and you still can't Pyrokinesis him. You -can- swing through him if he doesn't have first strike help or equipment that makes him bigger, but almost every deck packing Silver Knight exactly has those things. The only big difference maker here is that now you can blast them with Siege-Gang Commander, which might be far better than I think based on white weenie's clock.

The really bizarre thing about this deck to me is the lack of Rishadan Ports. Then, however, I had the thought that Ports might be less optimal in a deck where turn 2 can be spent playing Therapy than they would be otherwise. I've always thought the lack of ports makes 22 land playable over 23 given how much red you'll hit, but I can't imagine playing without at least some ports. Turn two, Goblins' weakest turn, is often best spent tapping a land on your opponent's upkeep.

So if you were going to make a case for the 3-color manabase, how would you do it? We're assuming you have to keep a Tin-Street main and maindeck at least 2 Therapies (which allows for 32 Goblins and 22 land). We're also assuming you want to be able to cast additional Therapies in board, possibly Duress, and presumably Krosan Grip.

[Eldariel]

I'd never play three colours, I value the mirror match too much. But if I was forced to do it (talking about pure, brute force here) and was forced to play only 22 lands (which is too few...), I'd do the following:

8 fetch
2 Taiga
3 Badlands
3 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
2 Wasteland


I really wouldn't want to go under 3 Mountains for the mirror purposes, although I guess you could technically drop a Mountain for a 4th Badlands or a 3rd Taiga. And with mere 22 lands, I'd rather not go headfirst around Wastelanding everything, so 4 Ports, 2 Wastes.

Then we'd need to fit in 3 Cabal Therapies for it to really be meaningful and at least 2 Tin Street Hooligans for it to do its job, so we'd be left with the rest of the deck as follows:
28 staple
3 Gempalm
2 Tin Street Hooligan
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Cabal Therapy

My suggestion, and I think, the best way to go with Rbg.

[Jak]

Well yeah Chalice would hurt. I would probably put Pillar there instead or something. I just felt Therapy warranted the discussion. It is very powerful with all the cards we can sack. Paying B and making the opponent discard a few cards is too good. I am sticking with RG because the deck is powerful enough.

Does anybody have any super-secret tech for Columbus? I wish I could go, but the west coast is a little far. Life from the Loam was brought up, but that doesn't seem to be great at all. Just because we would be losing a lot of creatures while we did that. Any tech?

[Jak]

Well yeah Chalice would hurt. I would probably put Pillar there instead or something. I just felt Therapy warranted the discussion. It is very powerful with all the cards we can sack. Paying B and making the opponent discard a few cards is too good. I am sticking with RG because the deck is powerful enough.

Does anybody have any super-secret tech for Columbus? I wish I could go, but the west coast is a little far. Life from the Loam was brought up, but that doesn't seem to be great at all. Just because we would be losing a lot of creatures while we did that. Any tech?

[Awesomator]

Are you guys serious? Everything is worth talking about but some of you want to make it control goblins. Cabal therapy would be better than pillar if you didnt have to make it a third color.. and the green is pretty important. Dralnu's Crusade was a pretty cool idea, won't see me running it because I don't feel it will help enough but still cool idea. I think Cabal Slaver costs too muchalthough it wouldnt be that bad to play. Paying BB in a goblin deck is probably never going to happen unless you want to cut ports and wastelands which are the cards that make the deck so good.

[Awesomator]

The day Wizards makes a black disenchant is the day we'll see a lot of R/B goblin decks running over the format.. and im serious.. it really would.

[Radley]

Hey guys, why not a blue splash for draw engine? lol

[Radley]

Adding life from the loam is nice. so +3 main deck then add 4 burning wish so you could either search for LFTL or living death or patriarch's biddng, and dredge from LFTL feeds your graveyard with more goblin for Living death or patriarch's bidding. But is it too much? there will be 11 non goblin spells including aether vial. maybe just 1-2 LFTL because there's already 4 burning wish?

Is the idea above too slow compared to food chain goblin?

[Jak]

Hey guys, why not a blue splash for draw engine? lol

Why would we need more draw with Ringleaders?


Adding life from the loam is nice. so +3 main deck then add 4 burning wish so you could either search for LFTL or living death or patriarch's biddng, and dredge from LFTL feeds your graveyard with more goblin for Living death or patriarch's bidding. But is it too much? there will be 11 non goblin spells including aether vial. maybe just 1-2 LFTL because there's already 4 burning wish?

Is the idea above too slow compared to food chain goblin?

Huh? I think the Life from the Loam idea was not that great. Did you test it? If so, how was it? And Burning Wish is just a no. It weakens Ringleader so much and does not help you at all really. Food Chain Goblins? Wtf? Who plays that anymore?

[Tacosnape]

Ok. Cabal Therapy is nuts. Here's what I've tested it against so far:

1. B/W Confidant. I won game one after Therapying out a Vindicate to protect a Vial. Probably would have won even without the Therapy here. Game two I didn't draw Therapy and succumbed to double Plague. Game three I therapy'd out two Plagues on turn two, then flashed back a Fanatic to knock out two Shades. Cabal Therapy >> Engineered Plague.

2. The Epic Storm (At least I THINK it was The Epic Storm.) I won the roll, went turn one Foothills for Badlands/Lackey. They dropped City of Brass and passed (I'm given to understand this isn't an especially bright move against Goblins.) I swung with Lackey, dropped SGC, then cast Therapy naming LED on a hunch. I hit an LED, then flashed it back for two Rituals and wasted the City of Brass. I promptly got yelled at for playing Goblins and got a Player Lost at this point.

3. R/G Goblins. I therapied out two Matrons and a Ringleader game one and won the long game. Game two I had to mull to 5 and got slaughtered by Lackey and Pyrokinesis. Game three my opponent mulled to six and I managed to shut down their manabase and won easily without seeing a Therapy. I think in hindsight I'd take out at least one Therapy in mirror, but it was so awesome in game one I left it in to try it further. I'll have to play around with it some more.

[Radley]

Why would we need more draw with Ringleaders?



Huh? I think the Life from the Loam idea was not that great. Did you test it? If so, how was it? And Burning Wish is just a no. It weakens Ringleader so much and does not help you at all really. Food Chain Goblins? Wtf? Who plays that anymore?

The first question. Refer to "lol"

2nd question. I don't know how searching for living death or patriarch's bidding is not helpful. LFTL for dredging more goblins into grave.

[Awesomator]

Ok 2 games per matchup is not testing... Wish and loam would slow it down ridiculously.. and the whole wish bidding was already tried in 1.x a while back and it didnt work then. Leader has definitely been enough draw for me. Cabal therapy in most of the decks ive seen have cut lands.. which hurts you in the long run or in tournaments with several rounds.. even if you cut gobs it makes ringleaders worse, which is not worth it imo. Vs deadguy or a B/W confidant build i would much rather have a stable mana base than a 3rd color.. epic storm therapy would be good.. and mirror it seems pretty ok.. however, an unstable mana base with less than 23 lands with 0 card draw is absolutely ridiculous.. and for the U splash.. idk if you were kidding or not.. would probably turn out to be better than R/B/G but it still isn't worth the card draw. To answer the second question, would be very nice to pull that off, but against the top 3 tier decks, bidding.... NQG will counter, Solidarity will go off in your face.. and goblins will bring a ton of goblins in play. Not to mention that it also slows the deck down ridiculously. I still dunno about Loam but i would like to see somebody do some thorough testing.. just seems like it would hurt more than help though.. not a bad SB card vs particular decks but I don't have the slots for it.

[Radley]

lol.. omg i said "lol" which means im only joking about the blue splash:eek:

[Tacosnape]

Cabal therapy in most of the decks ive seen have cut lands.. (Bunch of babble that wasn't a sentence)...an unstable mana base with less than 23 lands with 0 card draw is absolutely ridiculous.. .

I don't consider 22 Land and 4 Aether Vials to be unstable. I consider it to be possibly slightly suboptimal, as I myself prefer 23, but to say 22 is unstable is, as you put it, absolutely ridiculous, especially when you factor in the fact that Cabal Therapy is quite capable of hitting most of the cards that can assail your lands and vials.

I think you have to snip your Wasteland/Port base down to 6-7, as I don't think cutting a red-producing land is the right move. Toms' build ran 6 Mountains and no Ports, which is arguably a more -stable- Manabase than the Port builds (He had 18 red sources in his deck to our 15-16.) Stability isn't strictly related to the number of lands. The makeup of these lands is important as well.

[Awesomator]

If you were to cut the ports out then you're completely right the mana base would be more stable. But I was referring to posts dropping down to 19 lands and running therapies.. and also people with 4x wasteland 4x port and 3 color gob decks. Cabal Therapy would be good if ports were out but do you really want to ditch the ports + 3-4 other cards for it? I haven't tested therapy since extended a while back when there were a lot of crappy gobs to sac.. but vs deadguy if I miss with my named therapy.. I wouldn't really want to have to sac a fanatic, lackey, or driver.. which are your early game creatures unless you're running tin st.. although you do have to option to sac if absolutelky necessary. I guess I just don't see what the goblin deck would cut.. and I think losing port is a very big deal.

[Awesomator]

Playing a 1-2 color goblins should probably run all 4 ports and 4 wastes imo.. but if you ran black also and cut the waste and port down to like 6 I don't see why it wouldn't work.. but the question would be.. what are you actually going to cut to get the therapies in there

[Tacosnape]

But vs deadguy if I miss with my named therapy...

If you miss your Therapy against Deadguy, that means you at least aren't facing Engineered Plague and your odds are pretty decent.

I cut one port, one wasteland, and the tin-streets for 3 Therapies and a Mountain in my build, just testing it out. I'm not certain if I'll keep it like that, if for no other reason than I don't own Badlands and would need to get 8 to build both this and Red Death. But Therapy is definitely the sauce when it works.

But you're right. Losing the full army of ports and wastelands will hurt. And I don't think the deck can support more than two Therapies without deviating from a full Waste/Port arsenal.

[Awesomator]

If it turned out to be a good change I would like to keep at least one tin street. I think the MD Tin Street and boarded grips have helped the deck be better prepared to face anything.. Although therapy also helps do the same thing. I do like tin streets because it helps give you decent matchups vs random meta decks like white weenie and faery stompy. I will also try it out to see how much I like it but will most likely be playing R/G with tin streets and the full waste/port engine.

[Bane of the Living]

If it turned out to be a good change I would like to keep at least one tin street. I think the MD Tin Street and boarded grips have helped the deck be better prepared to face anything.. Although therapy also helps do the same thing. I do like tin streets because it helps give you decent matchups vs random meta decks like white weenie and faery stompy. I will also try it out to see how much I like it but will most likely be playing R/G with tin streets and the full waste/port engine.

Green Goblins has been the build I find most consistant especially in the face of white weenie decks with Jittes and such. Tin Street is way better in the mirror match since he's another body and nukes vial.

Please stop talking about nonsense such as loam. Dredging rather than drawing is a bad idea since your replacing a threat with a do nothing gimmicky card. The deck doesnt need Burning Wish when the speed and mana denial strategies can fight through any hate aimed at the deck. Bidding isnt needed as a finisher, you have SGC for that, and Ringleader refills you if your empty.

Please use the edit button rather than double post.

[Radley]

Green Goblins has been the build I find most consistant especially in the face of white weenie decks with Jittes and such. Tin Street is way better in the mirror match since he's another body and nukes vial.

Please stop talking about nonsense such as loam. Dredging rather than drawing is a bad idea since your replacing a threat with a do nothing gimmicky card. The deck doesnt need Burning Wish when the speed and mana denial strategies can fight through any hate aimed at the deck. Bidding isnt needed as a finisher, you have SGC for that, and Ringleader refills you if your empty.

Please use the edit button rather than double post.

omg.. You don't need to post messages that provokes fights. And loam isn't exactly useless, it also revives wastelands. I just suggested Loam, and patriarch's bidding, i didn't said "use it" so don't flame me any longer. i'm suggesting, not pushing people to use it. clear? If that isn't clear enough to you then Piss off

[Awesomator]

Whattup Nateeee.. haha anyways.. ya nothing wrong with throwing the ideas out there.. it's just up to everyone to give an opinion on there and that's what Bane did. I agree that it wasn't necessary and there were no slots for it, however, it's good to think outside the box anyway.

[Bane of the Living]

omg.. You don't need to post messages that provokes fights. And loam isn't exactly useless, it also revives wastelands. I just suggested Loam, and patriarch's bidding, i didn't said "use it" so don't flame me any longer. i'm suggesting, not pushing people to use it. clear? If that isn't clear enough to you then Piss off

I didnt mean to discourage your innovations but I think they'll clearly hamper the decks strategies. Like you mentioned it does put a blip in the decks speed, something not worth trading for recurring wastelands. You'd be using the mana casting loam to just activate Rishadin Port anyways.

Theres certainly room in goblins for some tricks and new tactics but you need to be cautious how you add said gimmick. I suggest you check out the thread I started in the N&D forum for a build of gobs more out of the box. Its based of the empty the warrens//fecundity engine, and not only adds a surprise tactic but turns the deck into aggro//combo. It might be what your looking for since its close to the aforementioned Food Chain builds.

[Lego]

I suggest you check out the thread I started in the N&D forum for a build of gobs more out of the box. Its based of the empty the warrens//fecundity engine, and not only adds a surprise tactic but turns the deck into aggro//combo. It might be what your looking for since its close to the aforementioned Food Chain builds.

And not that I encourage it, but that's probably a better place to put Life from the Loam, seeing as it splashes Green already and stuff. Then you can play some cycling lands, and, uh, okay, I'll stop.

I'm wondering about sideboard strategies. How are people generally boarding against Threshold and Solidarity? Against Solidarity I feel like 4x Chalice is accepted now, and usually backed up by 2x or 3x Pyrostatic Pillar. Is anyone still boarding Pyroblast? And for Threshold, Crypt is pretty much the accepted answer, but I've been talking to some people about just boarding bigger dudes. Mogg Flunkies and Goblin Goon come to mind. Has anyone tried this, or found a boarding strategy that works?

[Awesomator]

My board strategy is similar to the one you're talking about.

I run 4x Chalice (extreeemely good vs combo and also Not Quite Gro)
3x Pillar (also good vs both)
2x Patron of the Akki
3x krosan grip
3x pyrokinesis

Against most forms of combo i love my chances games 2 & 3. Game one is ehhh.
NQG is a good match up and gets better post board. I dont really think the elemental blasts are necessary.

[Awesomator]

lol would be funny to see someone playing loam and cycle lands.. it's awful but its really really funny.

[Lego]

2x Patron of the Akki

This just seems incredibly awful, and always has to me. I'm not saying it is, just that it's always seemed that way to me. I assume these are exclusively for Engineered Plague, yes? But you already run 3 Krosan Grip to answer that. Do you really need 5 answers, and are Patrons an effective answer anyway? It seems to me that most decks running Engineered Plague can easily deal with a single Patron of the Akki once your entire board is gone. Can you explain the rationale, and how good they've been in testing?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

omg.. You don't need to post messages that provokes fights. And loam isn't exactly useless, it also revives wastelands. I just suggested Loam, and patriarch's bidding, i didn't said "use it" so don't flame me any longer. i'm suggesting, not pushing people to use it. clear? If that isn't clear enough to you then Piss off

His post, unlike yours, was actually fairly polite. If you're going to fail to provide anything useful and throw a fit at anyone who points out the flaws in your logic, just stop posting.



I like the black splash, it shores up combo. And Tsabo's Decree would be a backbreaker in the sideboard. Of course, Tin-Street is a lot better against Thresh and Angel Stompy. Which is more of a metagame concern, though?

[nitewolf9]

Tsabo's decree for the mirror match...yikes. I like it. And yes, therapy is quite retarded in goblins. I'd rather have better game against combo and the mirror, as opposed to more game against a mu you already are favored in (threshold) and a deck that is designed to beat you anyway (therapy is amazing against AS btw, at least in red death it is).

[Tacosnape]

I like the black splash, it shores up combo. And Tsabo's Decree would be a backbreaker in the sideboard. Of course, Tin-Street is a lot better against Thresh and Angel Stompy. Which is more of a metagame concern, though?

This is the million dollar question which is driving me nuts.

I'd rather have the Tin-Street unquestionably against any deck packing The Goblinslayers, Jitte and SOFI. While you can Therapy these cards out of their hand, you can bet your feet when it matters most they'll peel the equipment off the top and turn the tables on you.

I'd rather have Therapy against Engineered Plague than green's Krosan Grip. Decks packing Plague can knock Krosan Grip out of your hand. They'll have a much harder time knocking Therapy out of your hand -and- your graveyard.

I'd rather have Therapy against combo, as maindecked Therapies raise your chances of winning the first game against combo and thereby drop the number of slots you need for it in the board.

I don't know which I'd rather have in the mirror. (I'm 1-1 Testing from the side of R/B Goblins) Tin-Street eats vials and the random Jitte for the few who pack it. Therapy eats Matrons and Ringleaders. It's a completely different strategy here. R/G goes for victory through being able to cast more goblins and keep the opponent off mana/vials to match, and R/B goes for the victory by having superior resources.

I'd rather have Tin-Street against decks packing Pithing Needle. Fuck Pithing Needle. T.S. Hooligan owns Pithing Needle.

I'm currently testing R/B, R/G, and R/B/G all at once, and am liking the 3-color splash a lot with a manabase of 8 Fetches, 3 Badlands, 2 Taiga, 4 Mountain, 3 Waste, and 2 Port. I board Therapy out in the Mirror for Pyrokinesis and try not to fetch Badlands more than necessary. It's still sort of a risky proposition though.

Cabal Therapy seems to be at its weakest against decks packing Brainstorm, with Solidarity being the exception. Against UBW Fish decks, for instance, Therapy quickly nets Plague being hidden behind a Brainstorm.

Therapy's been amazing against Pyroclasm, though. I was playing against one of those UWR Pyroclasm Fish decks online, which let a Lackey swing through into a Siege-Gang thinking to Pyroclasm it next turn. I ripped out two Pyroclasms from their hand with the Therapy. So much for that.

As for Tsabo's Decree, could you reliably cast it? It'd be superhot sex if you pulled it off. Like Mario after rescuing the Princess from Bowser's Castle hot. The cost seems iffy though.

[Eldariel]

Tsabo's Decree sucks, you need 6 mana to cast it and you're talking about playing a low-land (22) build in the first place when going Rb. Rg should probably have the advantage in the mirror, especially with the 24 lands, due to the wonders of the 'draw-step', as well as the fact that even though Therapy can be nice, without Vials and low on land, they can't really go crazy unless they can somehow get their Lackeys through.

[Awesomator]

It's not really a question as to whether or not therapy is good. If therapy was red.. every Gob deck would at least board it. You also forget to mention that you have 8 ways to tutor for Tin St when you need it. Also Krosan grip is irreplaceable. With the power of tin street and grip you would be losing a lot by just running R/B. So the question is how good port is and the 3-4 slots you're giving up for the therapies (which are what by the way?). While therapy is an amazing card and certainly does help you vs black more.. there are tons of alternatives that you can get from Red, Green, and Artifact cards. Vs solidarity I have found that Chalice, Pillar, Sometimes rishadan port, and pressure are enough to put the game well in your favor gmaes two and three. If you play against a weak solidarity player (there aren't many strong ones out there although I do test with one) Port is surprisingly helpful if it comes in multiples. The superior resources that come with black.. I'm not sure which you are talking about I just hope you dont mean bidding or living death.

I expect a good amount of goblin hate. I expect to see the same thing as GP Philly. People will play White Weenie because they feel it beats goblins. Engineered plagues and chills will be everywhere. Usually when I build a tier 1 deck like goblins I prepare it to face a lot of hate and to deal with any randomness I play against. Cabal Therapy is extremely good for that. But B/R goblins loses main deck tutorable artifact hate. R/G/B Allows you to lose to wastelands if you draw into too many nonbasics, and in a 9 round swiss.. It's probably going to happen. I like 23 land also because mana flood is not really a big deal as long as you can get a matron, ringleader, or siege gang in play. My solution to E Plague is 3 Krosan Grip and 2x Patron of the Akki and it has worked awesome so far.

Double posts merged. Please use the edit button when immediately adding to a post in the future. - Zilla

[Jak]

I really want to play the black splash for Therapy. But I do not ever want to lose the power of green's artifact and enchantment hate, so I am testing the 3 color build. I am not worried about the mana base at all because with 24 lands, I can fit everything in fine. The thing that is hard is wanting Therapies in the main. 3 would be the perfect amount MD. So would you play Therapies main or side in a 3 color deck? If so what would you take out? Too difficult for me to decide. But anyways I have been working with this list.

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
2 Badlands
4 Mountains

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander

SB
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pyrokinesis

Has been working well, but Therapy hasn't done more than what Chalice has. That is why I want it main because it gives me a good shot at the win. I don't want to splash if it is just for a SB card when I already had good SB cards. I could probably cut 1 SGC, a Port, and a Tin Street or Mogg. I then would add 3 Therapies.

How would this list look.

4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
2 Badlands
4 Mountains

4 Aether Vial
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Goblin Lackey
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

SB
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Tormod's Crypt

Thoughts?

[Awesomator]

looks similar to the build I started testing. Not because i think the blakc splash is a good idea, but to show results and prove that it isn't worth it. The problem with running only 2 badlands is that you might not necessarily draw that or a fetch in a time you actually need it. Running 24 lands and therapies? thats a little much.. giving up a lot of speed and jolt in the deck.. even with three colors you could probably swing for 23 and cut one port. I would rather run therapies in the board if at all so you can bring them in vs the decks they are intended for.. you cant afford to lose the speed for the discard. In my build with therapy MD i took out 1x siege gang (now 2) 1xTin St (now one as a tutor target) and I believe i took one incinerator out (3x total) .. I think those cards.. and every card that can be taken out is better than the three therapies and on top of that your mana base gets worse. I made the deck on short notice though so i possibly could have made better cuts. Good luck with it though.

got to admit.. if goblins was as popular as people think it is.. tsabo's decree would actually be a very good mirror card.. only problem is.. it's a waste of a sideboard slot. Goblins will probably be about 10% of the field which means you'll probably play against it once. Tsabo's decree isn't good against anything else unless your meta is elves and clerics. Every sideboard card you play should help vs multiple decks. At GP Philly I was laughing at opponents who said goblins was going to be 50% of the field. I had 2 byes on rating and decided to play the GPT on the third.. went 6-1 drop so i could get rest for the next day.. faced goblins once in both days.

Double posts merged. Please use the edit button when immediately adding to a post in the future. Also, please use proper capitalization and punctuation, as they are required on these boards. Thanks. - Zilla

[Eldariel]

Tsabo's Decree has, and always will, be a horrible mirror-card (Goblins often tend to be as much as 20% of the field, but that's hardly relevant). The fact is that in a match-up where both decks destroy their own, and opponent's lands, and all the mana accelerants only affect creatures, 6-mana spells don't matter. See how all the mirror-tech is cheap (Pyrokinesis, Tin Street Hooligan, etc.)? That's because in the mirror, you'll already be spending your money fighting tooth and nail for the board position. That's also why Jitte is bad in the mirror; Mogg Fanatic prevents it from getting counters and all the removal means that you would've probably won anyways if you get it active; in the normal sitiuation, you'll end up with 4 mana totally wasted instead, something you can't afford in the mirror against decent players. Also, those cards just happen to be more versatile, so there you go.

If you want SB-only hate, Therapy isn't necessary. Chalice, Pillar, blasts, Crypt and company give you all the SB-combo hate you could ever want. The point is, Therapy allows you to not autolose G1 to combo, which really makes a difference as trying to win two games in a row against a deck capable of killing turn 1 is going to be extremely difficult even with all the hate in the world. So rather have a good chance in all three games than focus on the two. That's the purpose and the benefit of the black splash; giving you an MDable anti-combo card that just happens to be very strong against just about everything else too, and synergistic to boot. Also, Dralnu's Crusade is a fine answer to Plague as it's pro-active along with being also a good answer to annoying white decks with stuff like pro-red critters, RoP: Red, Sphere of Law and other nonsense.

23 lands and 3 Therapies leaves you with exactly 30 Goblins, bottomline playable I guess, but frighteningly low, especially since the last cuts will be very hard.

[Awesomator]

Okkkkk so you're saying keep or lose the ports in a 23 land 3 color deck? And Dralnu's Crusade is ok vs plague.. but Patron and Grip do the job fine. I'm not sure if you've tested vs decks like white weenie, faery stompy, and other pro red decks.. but dralnu's crusade doesn't make the difference. Killing the equipment is the key to beating both decks.. then you can just run around them. Dralnu's crusade is only going to make your guys bigger, you can't even use incinerator on them. And btw I know you haven't tested combo matchups because Goblins isn't drawing dead on combo game ones.. I play the matchups all the time.. and I do win a lot of game ones by applying pressure, using wastes and ports, sometimes hitting things with tin st and playing a FAST goblin deck without therapies.. Whereas games 2 and 3 are well in your favor and you can mulligan aggressively.

[Eldariel]

So you feel like ignoring the whole 'If I played Rb'-part. I play Rg. And no, Dralnu's Crusade would NOT come in vs. Faerie Stompy. That much should be obvious to even the most casual observer. And of course straight Rb would be forced to play a number of Tinkerers and try to use skillz to actually make them do their job against equipment (along with Therapy helping, of course). Vs. Angel Stompy, it would come in as they can't really get an equipped creature edgewise as long as your Fanatics can take out their Priests and prevent their Knights from getting counters (and SGC can just wipe out their board).

I've tested the match-up against TES, Belcher and Iggy G1 and it's practically something like 75/25 or worse against you if the opponent is competent. Sure, sometimes you win off your mana disruption or them stalling out (and vs. Belcher, through them being unable to activate Belcher immediately giving you a chance to destroy it), but most of the time, they'll just roll over you (playing 10 games, you'll be lucky to win 3). Therapy improves the odds incredibly as whenever you draw it with any relevant discardables, you basically win the game unless your hand is crap. And no, Therapy doesn't make Goblins any slower. You still play 4 Lackeys, 4 Fanatics, 4 Piledrivers, 4 Warchiefs, 4 Matrons and some number of SGCs, all the elements you want for a turn 3 kill. What it does is replaces some utility-slots with utility relevant against combo. Spend B to make opponent go off 3-4 turns later is worth it, especially if you have a Lackey or even a Vial. You'll be losing about 3-4 points of damage, but still going lethal at approximately the same time due to the functionings of Goblins, and your opponent will not be going off before you.

Bank on your G2 and 3 all you want, but aggressively mulliganing to below 6 is pretty dumb as none of your hate is a permanent answer, just a way to slow them down, so you'll need to get your own gameplan to function too to win, and you'll also encounter those hands you'd normally have to mull too, so you can easily lose G2 or 3 just to a less-than-average 7 cards into slow 6 cards with some hate in them. The fact that only so many hands are keepable and random screws happen in Magic is really the main reason you'd want all 3 of your games to be good; you can't afford to throw games away when the game itself is out to get you in addition to your opponent.

23 lands=probably 4/3 configuration with 4 Ports and 3 Wastes. Ports are still your most important tools against the ever-growing number of controllish decks, and Solidarity too. It's also more relevant against competent Iggy-players fetching basics.