[DTB] Vial Goblins

[Awesomator]

First off.. the amount of games you win depends on what deck you are playing against.. and what if the crusade comes out late? if grip comes late that's fine.. but jitte and sword can wipe out your board pretty fast with swords back up.. with grip you have a lot more options. In my testing.. most forms of combo have been never more than a 2- a 2 and 1/2 to 1 favorite over goblins. Nevermind if you are actually playing against hardly consistant ones. Nothing wrong with aggressively mulling vs particular combo decks if say chalice for 0 will either win or buy you a lot of time.. or if you're stuck with expensive cards in your hand that you will never get to cast before you shortly die.. then i still would. You act like game 1 is an autoloss.. it's not in your favor.. but it's nowhere near an autoloss. Inconsistant decks like belcher fizzle out almost as often as they work (granted my testing vs belcher opponents hasn't been vs the highest calibur players). You also act like it's very easy for them to woprk around chalices and pillars.. when it isn't.

[Eldariel]

First off.. the amount of games you win depends on what deck you are playing against.. and what if the crusade comes out late? if grip comes late that's fine.. but jitte and sword can wipe out your board pretty fast with swords back up.. with grip you have a lot more options.

Why'd you ever want to SB Crusade over Grip? The fact remains that there's no black Grip so you'd best just work with what you've got. The black artifact removal-spells are too weak to really consider and frankly, red is just fine as far as destroying artis go. It's the versatility that the red removal lacks. Crusade does a lot in multiple different MUs, which in my opinion warrants inclusion if possible, most importantly as black's only real anti-Plague tool.


In my testing.. most forms of combo have been never more than a 2- a 2 and 1/2 to 1 favorite over goblins. Nevermind if you are actually playing against hardly consistant ones. Nothing wrong with aggressively mulling vs particular combo decks if say chalice for 0 will either win or buy you a lot of time.. or if you're stuck with expensive cards in your hand that you will never get to cast before you shortly die.. then i still would. You act like game 1 is an autoloss.. it's not in your favor.. but it's nowhere near an autoloss. Inconsistant decks like belcher fizzle out almost as often as they work (granted my testing vs belcher opponents hasn't been vs the highest calibur players). You also act like it's very easy for them to woprk around chalices and pillars.. when it isn't.

Depends. They might just draw a hand that just happens to ignore the Chalice you played (LEDs if you played it at 1, Rituals if you played it at 0), and Pillar is rather weak unless you can get heavy damage through or it along with Chalice. Playing through the cards isn't easy by any means (unless you happen to have a hand that ignores the card in question), but it is going to happen eventually, which means that if you cripple your own gameplan to get hate, you're very likely to lose anyways. And I don't claim to have exact match-up percentages, lists and skill vary. Fast combo still tends to have strategic superiority over Vial Goblins G1, since they're rather resilient to all the disruption you throw at them, they don't rely on attacking through hordes of blockers and their fundamental turn is earlier than yours. G2, you try to shift that but you don't achieve total strategic superiority just because your disruption is now relevant since it just tends to slow them down to the same speed as you seeing that they need to generally see more cards to get the anti-hate to win through your disruption. Having G1 closer to slight unfavourability would take a lot of pressure off your sided games (not to mention, lessen the needed SB-space to properly SB for those MUs as you already have relevant cards MDd) and make the matches closer to even or even favourable.

[Awesomator]

I'm not arguing that cabal therapy helps vs combo.. but it does hurt other matchups. There is obviously still a reason you're playing R/G Eldariel. The deck should be prepared to deal with anything.. and 3 sideboarded grip does that a lot better than 3 MD therapy.. not to mention the MD tutorable artifact hate with tin st. Depending on which combo deck you play againt.. chalice is nearly unavoidable. Vs Iggy.. 0 is extremely hard to run around.. it's possible but the combo player either needs to get extremely lucky with a lot of cabal rits and dark rits.. but on top of that, they have to do it with a clock on them. Pillar with a clock or multiple pillars can stop the amount of spells they can cast and end the game there. Vs solidarity Pillars are key.. Cunning Wish + Bounce which are necessary to get rid of pillar are at least 4 damage. Vs Belcher they are inconsistant enough.. getting chalice for 0 shakes the deck up to even worse condition than it's already in. While chalice is the nuts vs NQG, burn, among other decks. Chalice has a ridiculous number of uses, as does pillar. It's not completely geared toward combo, but it helps a lot. Having a versatile sideboard is the key to winning and those two cards help in a lot of matchups.

[Tacosnape]

A lot of you seem to be making a mistake when it comes to Cabal Therapy. It's not strictly an anti-combo card. It doubles as a way to hit random crap that Goblins hates seeing. Pyroclasm, Engineered Plague, Solitary Confinement, and so on.

[Awesomator]

Cabal therapy is a great card in general.. just not needed in goblins. Cabal Therapy is one of my favorite cards and I still don't like it in the deck. Whether you go just B/R and lose Grip and Tin ST.. or you go to 3 colors and either ruin your mana base, play too much land for a goblin deck, or lose port.. in all of those scenarios lose goblins.. none of which are worth it.

[Eldariel]

A lot of you seem to be making a mistake when it comes to Cabal Therapy. It's not strictly an anti-combo card. It doubles as a way to hit random crap that Goblins hates seeing. Pyroclasm, Engineered Plague, Solitary Confinement, and so on.

And Gempalm Incinerator and Ringleader in the mirror. Perhaps SGC, Fanatic and Warchief too. And maybe even Matron. The reason I advocate the Therapy-splash MD is because it's synergistic AND good in just about all MUs.

[Awesomator]

it's a 1 for 1 in the mirror.. not great and not bad either.. you're losing goblins just to put the card in the deck anyway so it's not going to give the nice edge you think it is. That's if you're going 3 color. If you go for 2 color tin street may make a big difference in the MU.

[Bane of the Living]

There arent many goblins Im willing to sacrifice early game. Fanatic..
Mid game theres Matron, and maybe Ringleader. Your really pressing that therapy should be used to cut the opponents answer off before its cast, if thats the case you need to really mise your therapy the first call, or lose board position. The best part about Tin is he keeps you on track of killing your opponent while providing disruption. Therapy as long as it doesnt whiff, can be great in the mirror. Having Tin kill the opponents vial and giving you a body sounds like a way better deal.

[Awesomator]

Which is very obvious this argument should have been done a while ago. Any other things of interest people have found red or green?

[Radley]

I'd use goblin pyromancer for mirror match, it's like wrath of god. Keep tin and sideboard cabal therapy against combo or control deck. Mainboard badlands and bloodstained mire.

[Tacosnape]

Okay, you know what's really ridiculous in the black splash?

Cover of Darkness.

Outside of the Mirror and Red Death, Cover is an amazing piece of tech for any creature matchups. Not only can you swing through hordes of pro-red and 3/3's, you can go Lackey on turn one, Cover on turn two. Also, if you don't have the Lackey, dropping Cover turn two will allow for broken shit with Goblin Warchief in the near future.

A lot of decks are running creatures with toughness 3+ now. Even Court Hussar's seeing play for this reason among others. Cover of Darkness punishes decks that don't get the goblins out of existence.

Imagine. Hordes of completely unblockable goblins. I slobber at the prospect.

Obviously, with the frequency of Goblin mirrors and Combo, I'd suggest Cover to be a sideboard card, but an amazingly powerful one.

[Eldariel]

The main issue with Cover in my opinion is that it doesn't answer any of the hate that's bound to be coming in against you. Of course it's very strong against most decks with creatures, but I don't know if you can fit it on the SB without giving away a lot in some MUs. If you choose to rely on Therapies to win those MUs, I'd imagine it could be an amazing card for the rest of the format though.

radley: Pyromancer isn't much in the mirror. If the game goes into attrition, there won't be too many Goblins in play in the first place, and you'll have to commit almost as much as the opponent to make sure you don't just plain die. Even if you manage to cast Pyromancer, you'll have to hope they don't kill it before the EoT (Fanatics or Gempalm) meaning the ability will never trigger. Pyromancer has its uses, but thanks to the sitiuationality and the conditionality, along with the rise of Stifle, I've personally turned away from it.


And regarding Therapy, depending on the MU, you might be happy pitching a Piledriver, a hardcast Incinerator or whatever the Lackey dropped, or the Lackey itself for that matter. Remember that in the mirror, you don't need to cast it early as the hands tend to be rather full and thanks to Ringleaders and Matrons, you often have some idea what they've got there, and taking out ANY of the SGC-Gempalm-Ringleader-Matron quartet prevents them from getting ahead (since you have the tools, it technically allows you to get ahead). And against combo, you'll probably be happy to give up ANY Goblin to win the game, as well as against control to prevent something like Humility, Moat, Confinement or such from landing. And in aggro-match ups, it allows you to keep equipment and big beats away from the table while you beat, so there's really no reason not to add it. And the 'doesn't need it' is nonsense, anything that improves your worst match-up should be extensively considered.

[Bane of the Living]

How about this.. The only reason people are in a tizzy about Therapies now is because of that last deck at where? GAGG? Something a little different comes along and people want to jump all over it.

News Flash!!

Cabal Therapy has been around longer than Warcheif himself. Goblins could've implimented this change long ago if it really was the right call to make. Look at the number of mono red, rg, or rw lists that have made top eight. Compare them to rb builds.. The guy who packed the rb gobs got extremely lucky with his first calls, thus his success. Does therapy hitting all those tastey cards sound amazing? Of course it does, but just remember things dont always work out in the real tournies. How much luck do you want involved with goblins? We already bank on good ringleaders, I dont want to lose games because I pay B to look at my opponents hand. I dont want to loss a game because Im drawing nothing but vials and therapies. How much testing has any of you done with therapy really? I wasnt happy with it at all. You really need to get luckey with your first calls, you need to not lose too much board position when casting it. The card(s) you rip from your opponent need to surmount to a win to make therapy worth it. Ripping a single card out of combo, or even two cards will maybe buy a turn against combo, but the loss of a gob you put the work into casting often gives the turn right back to the opponent. Especially if your factoring driver damage, the most important source of damage against combo.

I havent had any problems at all with Chalice and Pillar as my anti combo tools, and using the aforementioned gives me the huge benefit of fighting off Hydroblasts and Swords, nasty cards that are great against goblins but get shut down by this plan. You argue Therapy has more all around versatility but I need to stress the inevitability that Chalice creates. All good combo decks in the format can recover from the loss of a card or two, its insanely harder to come out from under Chalice pressure. By playing Chalice your keeping your aggression by not sacrificing goblins, and often times let us not forget dropping CotV@0 against certain combo decks isnt out of the ordinary. Meaning you dont have the conflicting 1cc drops in the start of the game.
Not being able to play Chalice if you do play therapy is the final nail in the coffin.

[Eldariel]

How about this.. The only reason people are in a tizzy about Therapies now is because of that last deck at where? GAGG? Something a little different comes along and people want to jump all over it.

News Flash!!

Cabal Therapy has been around longer than Warcheif himself. Goblins could've implimented this change long ago if it really was the right call to make. Look at the number of mono red, rg, or rw lists that have made top eight. Compare them to rb builds.. The guy who packed the rb gobs got extremely lucky with his first calls, thus his success. Does therapy hitting all those tastey cards sound amazing? Of course it does, but just remember things dont always work out in the real tournies. How much luck do you want involved with goblins? We already bank on good ringleaders, I dont want to lose games because I pay B to look at my opponents hand. I dont want to loss a game because Im drawing nothing but vials and therapies. How much testing has any of you done with therapy really? I wasnt happy with it at all. You really need to get luckey with your first calls, you need to not lose too much board position when casting it. The card(s) you rip from your opponent need to surmount to a win to make therapy worth it. Ripping a single card out of combo, or even two cards will maybe buy a turn against combo, but the loss of a gob you put the work into casting often gives the turn right back to the opponent. Especially if your factoring driver damage, the most important source of damage against combo.

The reason I've been bringing is up is that I've always found it to have a natural home in Goblins and wondering why it isn't getting played even with the obvious power in the deck. Now that it's finished high in some tournament, there's an actual ground to discuss adding the card. Making first calls is purely about reading your opponent and metagame knowledge of which deck he might be playing based on his first turns. If you have a good grasp of the format, chances are you can hit more often than not, or alternatively find out that your opponent can't win against you without topdecking whatever you just named. Also, multiples tend to happen especially early on so even if you whiff, you can still get right back by knocking multiple important cards out of their hand. Obviously it's not a natural play turn 1, but in many scenarios, it is the natural play on turn 2: You want to Wasteland something, you connected with Lackey and want to put your opponent away by taking out his sweepers, you dropped Lackey and are holding a Vial, you have Gempalm as your only 2-drop Goblin without any good targets, you want to hold back your Tin Street since you know your opponent will be dropping the devastating artifact X in near future (with Therapy, you can even guide them to play the artifact by attacking something else and giving them the idea that since you saw it, you'll flashback in the first opportunity), etc. The reason Therapy hasn't been run is because people have somehow been encaptivated by the white splash for aeons now. Green splash hasn't been finishing much either although it's almost completely superior to the white one. Now that the harmful enchantments are very hard to find in the format (since so few decks play them) and combo is more common than ever, the disruptive power of Therapy seems to finally overcome the anti-enchantment prowess of white and green. There hasn't really been a more natural time to start playing Therapy than this.


I havent had any problems at all with Chalice and Pillar as my anti combo tools, and using the aforementioned gives me the huge benefit of fighting off Hydroblasts and Swords, nasty cards that are great against goblins but get shut down by this plan. You argue Therapy has more all around versatility but I need to stress the inevitability that Chalice creates. All good combo decks in the format can recover from the loss of a card or two, its insanely harder to come out from under Chalice pressure. By playing Chalice your keeping your aggression by not sacrificing goblins, and often times let us not forget dropping CotV@0 against certain combo decks isnt out of the ordinary. Meaning you dont have the conflicting 1cc drops in the start of the game.
Not being able to play Chalice if you do play therapy is the final nail in the coffin.

I'd play both. Against most combo, you can drop Chalice at 0, against Thres you can bring Chalice in for Therapy and against Solidarity, you can still just cast Therapy first and follow it up with Chalice after ripping their counters. The only problem I see with Therapy is that you can't run it with Tin Street Hooligan. Oh well, everything requires sacrifices. I'd rather take an improvement in all my dicey match-ups than just in some of them. Funny that even with all this, I might end up playing Rg since I love lands.

[Bane of the Living]

I'd play both. Against most combo, you can drop Chalice at 0, against Thres you can bring Chalice in for Therapy and against Solidarity, you can still just cast Therapy first and follow it up with Chalice after ripping their counters. The only problem I see with Therapy is that you can't run it with Tin Street Hooligan. Oh well, everything requires sacrifices. I'd rather take an improvement in all my dicey match-ups than just in some of them. Funny that even with all this, I might end up playing Rg since I love lands.

You did start very interesting discussion on Therapy. It had more merit than LftL! I wonder who has a meta that really would need to impliment the therapy change however. Where I play I know Ill see way more mirror matches, affinity matches, or white weenie style wierd jitte decks. I know your saying therapy has some advantages in the mirror, especially when matron and leader show you cards, but we all know that match comes down to who has how many vials with how many counters on them. This is where Tin Tin shines the very most. If you wiff your first therapy against gobs you set yourself back against them, when you sac a gob to flash it back, your again setting yourself back, altho this time it cost you a man instead of B. When your casting Tin you immediately remove the opponents turn one, setting THEM back a turn, and you set yourself up with board position as well. Even if Tin dies to a lone fanatic now, he's officially been a two for one against your opponent. Card advantage is something the mirror really comes down to.

Even with all the possiblities therapy provides in the end you say yourself, you'd prefer the Rg consistancy and denial lands. Even playing denial lands with Rb will eventually clash because the B mana you'd be putting into therapy would probably go into porting the opponent down.

I know Rg hasnt been winning huge, but people are still picking up Krosan Grips for the first time today. People have doubts about cards like Tin Tin till they see them in action first hand. I know Ive been buying over people at my local store with displays of mox, jitte, and vial smashing all day. People love swords to plowshares. Let me say that again. People are in love with the card. Its hard to look past the best removal spell in the game, so many people are hard to convince leaving its glory. The fact is goblins dont need a removal spell. The only matchup imho swords would be needed is reanimator, and really, who's playing that deck? Tin's redundancy, ability to two for one, tutorablilty, and body really provide more for you then StP can ever hope to. Again, if combo is your weaker matchup, remember Tin is still a 2/1 for 1R, or against combo hes a 2/1 haste for R. I didnt mean to get into a huge thing about green vs white again but the reasons to play green are very recent investments to legacy's card pool. Swords, Disenchant, and Geddon, have been with us when we only had Mons's Goblin Raiders!

[Tacosnape]

Actually, Bane, I've run B/R Goblins before. A long time ago. In a pretty new Legacy format. I didn't think it was spectacular then because Goblin Hate was still a relatively new thing and there weren't as many juicy targets for the thing. (It's also possible I wasn't nearly as good at Legacy / Magic back then)

Secondly, I am extremely accurate with my Cabal Therapies. Consistently. I'm known in our local meta as someone you never want to see playing Therapy or Mage because I'm insanely accurate blind with them. I say this is more relevant to experience than luck or even playskill, and twelve years experience has made me love anything that says "Name a card" on it.

Thirdly, despite that whole previous point, you don't need to be accurate with Therapy. You just need to be smart. Against a Plains, you name Silver Knight or Jitte. Against a Forest, Wild Mongrel. You just have to be smart and name the cards that could hurt you the most on your opponent's very next turn. Anything else you can get via flashback a turn later.

[Eldariel]

You did start very interesting discussion on Therapy. It had more merit than LftL! I wonder who has a meta that really would need to impliment the therapy change however. Where I play I know Ill see way more mirror matches, affinity matches, or white weenie style wierd jitte decks. I know your saying therapy has some advantages in the mirror, especially when matron and leader show you cards, but we all know that match comes down to who has how many vials with how many counters on them. This is where Tin Tin shines the very most. If you wiff your first therapy against gobs you set yourself back against them, when you sac a gob to flash it back, your again setting yourself back, altho this time it cost you a man instead of B. When your casting Tin you immediately remove the opponents turn one, setting THEM back a turn, and you set yourself up with board position as well. Even if Tin dies to a lone fanatic now, he's officially been a two for one against your opponent. Card advantage is something the mirror really comes down to.

Even with all the possiblities therapy provides in the end you say yourself, you'd prefer the Rg consistancy and denial lands. Even playing denial lands with Rb will eventually clash because the B mana you'd be putting into therapy would probably go into porting the opponent down.

I know Rg hasnt been winning huge, but people are still picking up Krosan Grips for the first time today. People have doubts about cards like Tin Tin till they see them in action first hand. I know Ive been buying over people at my local store with displays of mox, jitte, and vial smashing all day. People love swords to plowshares. Let me say that again. People are in love with the card. Its hard to look past the best removal spell in the game, so many people are hard to convince leaving its glory. The fact is goblins dont need a removal spell. The only matchup imho swords would be needed is reanimator, and really, who's playing that deck? Tin's redundancy, ability to two for one, tutorablilty, and body really provide more for you then StP can ever hope to. Again, if combo is your weaker matchup, remember Tin is still a 2/1 for 1R, or against combo hes a 2/1 haste for R. I didnt mean to get into a huge thing about green vs white again but the reasons to play green are very recent investments to legacy's card pool. Swords, Disenchant, and Geddon, have been with us when we only had Mons's Goblin Raiders!

Yea, my issue with Cabal Therapy is the same issue I've always had with everything that isn't a Goblin in MD; I love my 24 lands and they win me so many games it's not even funny. However, it's my new #1 candidate for a card I'd run in the MD if I ran a single non-Goblin slot outside Vials and lands. Tin Street is surely awesome in the mirror, but Rb would still run Tinkerers for a decent shot at offing the Vial, and when Vials are down, Rb should have the advantage of being able to off a number of opponent's high curve threats. Rg has the advantage of having one more land to reach them earlier though (at least my build, but I personally believe 24 lands is correct, or 1 too few for Rg). The big question is, is the loss of Tin Street worth the gain of Cabal Therapy? In the mirror, and against equipment- / Affinity-decks, Tin Street is stronger. In the combo- and control-MUs, Therapy is stronger. The fact remains that Therapy can still knock out the hate.

Taco, just a small point, the ability to name correct cards with Therapy is a part of playskill. Maybe something you gain through card knowledge and experience, but still, it's playskill. Being good at Poker also helps there.

[Awesomator]

You still won't hit more often than not on the first guess even if you know the exact deck your opponent is playing.. do the math. I'm not even the type of person who is against new ideas. If there was room for cover of darkness in the board that was actually a better idea than therapy.. but there isn't room so definitely could not run it.. but that's thinking outside the box at least.... cabal therapy is crapping on the box.

[Awesomator]

and taco.. if your opponent does drop a plains and you name silver knight or jitte with B/R gobs and miss.. and suppose they have the other one. Or a pro red creature and draw a jitte.. what do you plan to do scoop? That's what mono red goblins did last season most of the time. If your opponent drops a forest in legacy.. you just might have to name survival. I'm more against playing 2 color B/R than I am someone playing R/G/B gobs.. though i don't necessarily think it's the right choice. Krosan Grip and Patron work perfectly against plague.. Have you guys tested krosan grip??? Saves lives....

[Tacosnape]

and taco.. if your opponent does drop a plains and you name silver knight or jitte with B/R gobs and miss.. and suppose they have the other one. Or a pro red creature and draw a jitte.. what do you plan to do scoop?

Have you tested Goblins at all?

First off, if you're on the draw, and they go Plains-Go, there's no way you open with Cabal Therapy. You open with Lackey, Fanatic, or Vial. I would only consider casting Therapy here if I didn't have Lackey, Fanatic, or Vial, and this is rare as I usually mulligan any hand not containing one of the three when I'm on the draw.

If you did, however, you should name Umezawa's Jitte. It can come down the very next turn and it's the more dangerous of the two if you don't run Tin-Street. Anybody who thinks a single unarmed Silver Knight is more than a minor speedbump for Goblins has never played this matchup on either end. I've won through double and sometimes triple Silver Knights before without much difficulty. At the very least by naming Jitte, you're either facing an unarmed Silver Knight next turn, a Silver Knight who may pick up SOFI, which you can zap out with a flashback (Unless they drop it via Tomb), or possibly nothing scary at all.

(It's also entirely possible you'll hit Rune of Protection: Red, but MWC is a hard match anyway.)

[Jak]

There is no way I would drp Tinny for Therapy. I mean I want Therapy in the deck, but Grip and Tinny are just too good. That is why I am trying 3 colors. It has worked in winning game one a few times because setting them back a turn is huge, but I think I would want my Gobs more in other cases. I really don't know. I am probably going to stick to Green because Jitte, Vial, Scroll, etc... are still out there. It is not like we cannot beat combo, so Green is superior in my opinion.

[Bane of the Living]

Have you tested Goblins at all?

First off, if you're on the draw, and they go Plains-Go, there's no way you open with Cabal Therapy. You open with Lackey, Fanatic, or Vial. I would only consider casting Therapy here if I didn't have Lackey, Fanatic, or Vial, and this is rare as I usually mulligan any hand not containing one of the three when I'm on the draw.

He was responding to you telling us what to name when we see a single plains. In my mind as well, I figured you meant on turn one, regardless of being on play or draw. Its obviously better to drop a dude to sac before the therapy.

Wild Mongrel?

[Tacosnape]

He was responding to you telling us what to name when we see a single plains. In my mind as well, I figured you meant on turn one, regardless of being on play or draw. Its obviously better to drop a dude to sac before the therapy.

Wild Mongrel?

If you're on the play, you can see a single plains on turn two. Meaning you may have a Lackey to drop Therapy Fuel, or a Fanatic to fit the bill.

Okay, I'll concede that maybe Wild Mongrel's a reach here and Survival of the Fittest's a better call. I've just had nightmares trying to deal with Mongrel.

[Awesomator]

Was obviously responding to you saying "Against a Plains, you name Silver Knight or Jitte. Against a Forest, Wild Mongrel. You just have to be smart and name the cards that could hurt you the most on your opponent's very next turn. Anything else you can get via flashback a turn later" And what if your opponent has sword of fire and ice instead? what goblins are you going to sac to get it out? or if your opponent topdecks an equipment early in the game. Have been playtesting goblins much longer and much more than anyone else in this thread.. and I've played it with every color. Wild Mongrel has never really been a big deal for me unless they can get an active jitte going.. and even then.. it isn't the mongrel I'm worried about.

[Radley]

actually, goblin can even win you games because it let's you add +3/+0 to all your goblins and you can expect that all your opponent's creatures are tapped so there are alot of chance you'd win(that iswith mirror match). Your opponent needs 2 mogg fanatic, which is rare because opponent will usually search goblin ringleader or warchief when they cast matron. Gempalm incinerator? how many do they have in deck?

I fail to see what is the goblin deck's main deck answer to enchantment. Can anyone tell me. Is it really only krosan grip?

[kicks_422]

actually, goblin can even win you games because it let's you add +3/+0 to all your goblins and you can expect that all your opponent's creatures are tapped so there are alot of chance you'd win(that iswith mirror match). Your opponent needs 2 mogg fanatic, which is rare because opponent will usually search goblin ringleader or warchief when they cast matron. Gempalm incinerator? how many do they have in deck?

I fail to see what is the goblin deck's main deck answer to enchantment. Can anyone tell me. Is it really only krosan grip?

You don't know much about Legacy Goblins, huh?

4 Incinerators are MD'd usually, less if it's for a splash for StP. And there's (usually) no main deck answer to enchantments because most times the deck doesn't need one.

[Radley]

You don't know much about Legacy Goblins, huh?

4 Incinerators are MD'd usually, less if it's for a splash for StP. And there's (usually) no main deck answer to enchantments because most times the deck doesn't need one.

I stopped playing magic when scourge was out, the goblin deck i used was a type 2 goblin deck without warchief, no vials, no matron, no ringleaders, just pilederiver ^_^. I'm playing goblin vials in MWS. I got stuck with isochron/orim's chant lock, fortunately for me, my opponent casted morphling and tapped out, he used for of will but i played goblin matron then searched for tin hooligan or whatever it's called, so i win the game. Goblins isn't that fast especially against opponent with solitary confinement.

[Eldariel]

In the mirror, contrary to popular belief, people don't attack all the time. At least they shouldn't. The card is tried, it has some isolate uses, but they tend to require lots of mana, and it works only in very specific scenarios. The fact that it can be a liability in lots of scenarios along with being a very dead card in the opening hand makes me not play it.

Btw, Goblin MD answer to enchantments is Rishadan Port and Wasteland. Some W-splash versions have actually MDd Disenchant, some B-versions run MD Cabal Therapy, but outside that, there isn't much MD enchantment hate.


Awesomator: By the way, how do you know you've been testing Goblins more and longer than anyone else? I'm just curious now that you brought it up.

[Rood]

It seems Goblins has the toughest matchup against fast combo decks such as Iggy or TES if your meta has a large amount of combo also Solidarity I would highly recommend running the Cabal Therapy splash over the Tin Tin Splash. However, The green splash gives you access to B/W confident hate with Grips as well as Tin Tin Smashing on un-wanted artifacts. It really all depends on your meta enviroment with your choice in color splashes.

[calosso]

It seems Goblins has the toughest matchup against fast combo decks such as Iggy or TES if your meta has a large amount of combo also Solidarity I would highly recommend running the Cabal Therapy splash over the Tin Tin Splash. However, The green splash gives you access to B/W confident hate with Grips as well as Tin Tin Smashing on un-wanted artifacts. It really all depends on your meta enviroment with your choice in color splashes.

That is not true, Goblins toughest matchup is white based control decks like wombat and rifter. I do believe that therapy improves that match-up, but it is very difficult.

[Eldariel]

That is not true, Goblins toughest matchup is white based control decks like wombat and rifter. I do believe that therapy improves that match-up, but it is very difficult.

I dunno, Rifter isn't all that bad, Wombat is where the money's at. Against Rifter, it's often easy to get some pressure to force them to waste their Pyroclasms, and just keep them off the lands so they can't cast Humility, winning the game with Vial. At least that's how the game's played out for me whenever I've played Rifter (I'm not saying it's a good match-up, but much closer than Wombat). The main issue I'm having with Wombat is that stupid stuff with 'basic lands'. Ports help, but barring an insane draw with multiple Ports, it tends to not be enough. It's not as bad post-board when you have actual enchantment removal though, making their locks not-so-final.

[Rood]

Haven't those decks fallen a bit out of most players deck choices at GPs now? It seems like the MWC and Rifter builds at least where I have been playing have been not to be seen anywhere. The amount of people running the white control builds has steadily decreased since when alot of people once ran those builds.

[Jak]

I still have my wombat deck and it is good. It is still a concern because it is a meta call and if goblins is in that meta, then you might see wombat. I just want to see the Goblin builds that were in the top 8 today.

[ForceofWill]

POSTING FOR AWESOMATOR

Got 5th - 8th at the Mana Leak Open. Was playing the standard list I've been posting.
ROUND 1 James (Top 8ed on day 1) I played vs Faery Stompy and lost game one very quickly. I destroyed his first equipment with tin street and he drew another eventually and countered my next tin street. Games 2 & 3 I won due to krosan grips on his sword of fire and ices and jittes and after both games he showed me a force of will telling me grip was ridiculous, I agreed :-P.
ROUND 2 was against Tog with main deck 4 engineered plague. Game one I rushed him very quickly with lackey, he couldn't do much since I was porting and wasting his lands. Game 2 He got the nuts with double force spike and two engineered plagues and I didn't see any grips and my patrons got countered. Game 3 I did my best to tap his black down constantly and eventually swung in for the win.
ROUND 3 Chris (Writes for Star City) Chris is a very talented player and these games went just like I thought they would, long. Game one I won the roll I had the vials, obviously nothing much anybopdy could do game 1. Game two was the exact opposite, my one pyrokinesis couldn't get the job done, since he had some of his own. Game 3 was a very long battle. I had control of the board for a very long time, but kept peeling land after land (this time that wasn't a good thing). Eventually chris completely stabilized and the board was looking fairly even (he had no warchief though), although he was at 7 and I was at 18. Chris drew a ringleader off the top, but only peeled off a lackey. I also drew a ringleader, but mine was better, it grabbed another ringleader with me at 3 mana and a warchief in play. I rushed some guys in, and on him and he was forced to block most of them off. He said good games after his draw step gave him nothing.
Round 4 was a known New Jersey goblin player (think his name was jeff something?). Game one I lost the roll but got the vials, thought that was the end until I found out he maindecked pyrokinesis! That is not good for me. I kept us at a standstill trying to press my edges (vial and ports), and it worked, I took down game 1. Game two I saw him side in 2 cards, never got to find out what they were because I didn't see them, although it was most likely more pyrokinesis. I boarded out -3 piledriver + 3 pyrokinesis. After he gained complete board control I just scooped knowing there was know way out. Game threestarted me with a vial and a shortage of lands. My opponent had 2 fanatics and had just dropped a warchief, with two lands I cycled gempalm, trying to get my opponent to bite and sac his fanatics at me (which was the right play since my vial was at two and I most likely boarded out most of my piledrivers). My opponent sacced the fanatics and me and then I vialed out a tin street, killing his warchief. I dropped a warchief and swung and told him I liked my chances, that was until he ringleadered 2 siege gangs out. I dropped a ringleader of my own through vial and hit two siege gangs also. Rather than drop the siege gang, I took the safe route, preserving my edge with vial. I wastelanded his land and started porting him away from siege-gang territory. My vial was set to 5 and there wasn't much he could do. Won't even bother telling how many pyrokinesis' were cast in that game.
Rounds 5 & 6, being one of the two undefeated players (the other also from my game shop in worcester), I got to draw in to the top eight.

ROUND 7 Vs Watcher (Top 8) against four color craziness! Only problem was, I didnt know it was 4 colors, neither Game one or two lasted very long. Game one i won the roll and dropped an aether vial. he dropped a kird ape and passed the turn. I added a counter, played a land, and passed the turn. My opponent dropped a rancor on the ape and swung in. At the end of his turn I vialed in a lackey and swung a siege-gang in, and that was basically the game. Game two, My hand was a pretty good one, that was until his turn three was a silver knight with jitte equipped was swinging at my head. I couldn't draw an answer and scooped. Game 3 I had total board control and things were looking awesome, that was until he eot used a fetch land to get a bayou. he dropped a dark confidant out of nowhere and things got much worse from there. I killed the first confidant but couldn't kill his second. He dropped double plague and kknight with a jitte on it. I drew krosan grip, but had to use it on the jitte. I couldn't find an answer and had to scoop. If i knew he was also playing black, patrons could have made a big difference in that game. Overall record 4-1-2 sorry I couldn't take it home for goblins guys.
Wish I played at TML Open day 1. I had done so much testing, I was very sure I was going to win. Seeing as it was my first bigger tournament back since GP Philly I didn't feel completely dissapointed though.

Just though you guys should know, in all of the six mirror games I played, no one got to six mana for those considering Tsabo's Decree still. Also, My fourth round opponent had to win his next round so he could draw in, as it turns out he was splashing white (which he didn't want me to see for a couple reasons). Jeff used armageddon to beat Wombat in the swiss to also make top 8.

[Tacosnape]

Congrats, Awesomator! Especially for breathing life into the R/G build's tournament results.

How many Tin-Streets did you run maindeck and how many Grips did you board? And did you run any sort of bizarre tech in your sideboard other than the amazing Grips?

[ForceofWill]

Posting For Awesomator

I ran 2 Tin street in the main deck. I boarded 3 grips. The only real tech I put in was Patron. I figured I was going to face a lot of hate (and I did), so the two boarded Patrons I feel were a good call. Only wish I could have taken the title home for goblins lol.

[Eldariel]

Posting For Awesomator

I ran 2 Tin street in the main deck. I boarded 3 grips. The only real tech I put in was Patron. I figured I was going to face a lot of hate (and I did), so the two boarded Patrons I feel were a good call. Only wish I could have taken the title home for goblins lol.

All I can suggest is MDing 3 Tin Streets. I think it's telling that equipment played a big part in all the games you lost. I've been MDing 3 Tin Streets ever since I went Rg and haven't once felt like it was too much.

[ForceofWill]

Posting for Awesomator

I am definitely going to try 3 Tin Street, I haven't tested more than 2 yet, but I'm sure it will help a lot. Not sure what I'll cut yet either.

[Bane of the Living]

The difference between my list and the one Awsomator top 8'd with was +1 Fanatic, -1 Tin. Aside from that it was the same, hell he used my cards to play with!!

I dont play the Patrons but Im considering it after watching him blow people away with him. Man were people surprised.

[Awesomator]

Thanks by the way Bane lol. Staying on topic, Patron is not only good vs hate, but it's just good in general. I often find myself boarding him in when I have too many useless cards to board out. Patron does basically the same thing as pyromancer vs certain forms of control, and it's a 7/5 body when you swing. I also got some testing vs solidarity with a red splash in vs deep6er at the event (he created the deck and is definitely one of the best solidarity players worldwide). I hadn't tested much vs the particular build, but I won the majority of game ones, probably 8 out of 11 (If I didn't have double ports, or ports and wastes, I was mising like it was my job). That's the good news, the bad news is he boards hydroblast and owned me like it was his job. The reason Pillar is so effective vs solidarity is that it burns a cunning wish if they cant force it, and vs mono blue it is an automatic 4 points of damage even if they have Cunning Wish. I didn't see many ports or chalices in our game twos and I won one out of all of the game 2s we played (somwhere around 10 or so), and he hydroblasted for the victory. On top of that, he ended up with my game 1 luck and did some mising when it was necessary (ripping the echoing truth to bounce double pillar "what a beaaating"). One of the games that chalice actually resolved, I had a shortage of creatures and ended up with a 20 turn clock with a piledriver, getting all of my creatures hydroblasted and countered. Tried for the chalice for three but he used the fourth force, can't complain since I did that to him about all of the game ones. I hope people don't start playing deep6er's build, because my game twos weren't such a big favorite anymore, due to the fact that he barely gets hurt by pillar. There were not enough games to call it testing, but gave me some idea of what I was up against, and I figured it would be good for the other goblin players out there to get a take on it. Wastelands did shine vs the red build when he actually had the volcanics out, but I'm sure the red build is much better. Thanks to deep6er for the testing and hopefully you switch to a blastless deck :-P

[Tacosnape]

So since I have absolutely nothing better to do with my life than brainstorm about weird things to do with my six decks, I got sitting around trying to analyze the problem of losing game after game with RG Goblins to Engineered Plague. I'm tired of losing to Plague. Every black deck in existence packs four, and RG Goblins has no way to pump its Goblins. The problem with Krosan Grip for this is that it keeps getting knocked out of my hand prior to nerfing the Plague (As in, everybody keeps leaving Duress in to rip the Grip.)

I never liked Goblin King. I don't like Dralnu's Crusade or Shared Triumph enough to run them, as they tend to get removed. I kept trying Therapy for this, but sometimes I still wasn't able to deal with Plague as it tended to get dropped immediately with a Dark Ritual, or countered, sometimes twice.

Then in four matches on workstation, I lost back to back to back to back matches against, in this order, Suicide Black, URW Control w/ Lightning Rift / Standstill, Enchantress, and one of those UWB Fish decks. This almost made me eat one of my Goblin Piledrivers.:mad:

So I angrily went and built a Goblin deck designed to solve the Plague/Moat/Humility/Enchantress problem. With a mild splash of both White and Green for Ray of Revelation. Kiss my ass, Duress.

Anyone else tried this out? It's incredible at stopping the numerous enchantment-based goblin-hating strategies. It kills two enchantments with one shot, making it very close to being as good as Krosan Grip against decks defending their enchantments with countermagic. A single one can pick off 1-2 Plagues, depending on whether they knock it out of your hand or not. It wrecks Rifter and Wombat by picking off any 2 of Humility, Rift, and ROP: Red. And it munches more Elephant Grass and Confinements than you can shake a stick at.

Plus the dual-color splash gives me access to both maindeck STP's and Tin-Street Hooligans (Running 2 each at the moment), which makes me less irritable to face white decks packing Silver Knight and Jitte. I've also managed to keep 8 fetches and 4 basics in for the mirror, where I have a fair advantage game one by being able to Swords Lackeys/Chiefs and Tin-Street Vials to keep them off almost all forms of acceleration.

Thoughts?

[Gekoratel]

The idea of the double splash is pretty neat and I've seen it done in the past with Black and Green. Both for the usual suspects of Cabal Therapy and Tranquil Domain/Grip. In your post you're talking about having 8 fetches and 4 basics. How many lands are you running and do you still have Rishadan Port in your deck. Because if you have 8 fetches, 4 basics, 6 duals, and 4 wastelands then thats 22 lands with no room for ports. If you wanted to squeeze the ports in with 22/23 lands in the deck then you would only be running 2-3 duals. What's your setup?

I'm surprised you've found E. Plague to be such a big problem for me it usually kills the on-board X/1's and then is answered. Or I just beat down with X/2's for the win. I think your bad luck with decks that run both Duress and E. Plague may be a little unfounded. Also how much better do you think Revelation is than Tranquil Domain, it gets around the Duress problem but the other benefits aren't that great. I personally don't think its worth sacrificing your mana base for.

[Jak]

Yeah Tranquil Domain would be so much better. It destroys enchantress because now that is going to be popping up everywhere. It is definitely a meta call though if you want to play that or grip.

[Awesomator]

Ray is a cool idea, but then we have the question about how many ports/wastes you can run with the double splash. I have never had a problem with enchantress, I always seem to run it over. tranquil domain isn't a bad card either, however, you have to at least still run grip if you decide to run it. Artifacts are a much bigger problem than enchantments (aside of plague). With decks like landstill grip is the nuts. Has anyone here tried Patron of the Akki? It has helped me ridiculously. Usually plague players running removal use it early on warchiefs, lackeys, and drivers. Patron comes out at the end of turn, can't be duressed, and is a 7/5 beatstick who makes use out of creatures your opponent is trying to remove.

[Onphyre]

I was just wondering in terms of engineered plague is it better to run Goblin King or Patron of the Akki against it(i used to run King but now im not using either and instead running Kiki for faster kill)? Also is running Jitte in your MD (for Mono-R) a good idea (to help control the board better, i used to have lightning bolt X3 but instead added another gempalm and x2 Jitte)? And lastly is running MD tinkerer a must, because currently I am no using him, my deck list is as follows:

MD:
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander

4 AEther Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Bloodstained Mire
7 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt


Any advice would be great and I'm considering siding back in King and another Siege-Gang to help vs. the Mirror, is that a good idea? Thanks in advance!

[Eldariel]

Taco: Patron is still awesome, un-Duressable anti-Plague tech. I like the idea of having something like Ray, but I don't like the lack of versatility it has. Hitting artifacts has been huge to me in past, as well as hitting enchantments past counters. Ray is good against enchantment-decks and against decks with counters, but if you bring it in against UWb Fish, you risk them just not drawing their Plagues and pummeling you with their Jittes instead, matching you at least Jitte for Tin Street due to counters and library manipulation. At that point, staring at Ray is going to make you eat your pants. And the last alternative of SBing both sounds even worse as then you don't have very many slots and will probably be left without sufficient combo-, graveyard- or mirror-hate. Or, if Duress specifically is your issue, use some creature that blasts enchantments, like Ronom Unicorn or Kami of Ancient Law. Still excess slots though.


I was just wondering in terms of engineered plague is it better to run Goblin King or Patron of the Akki against it(i used to run King but now im not using either and instead running Kiki for faster kill)? Also is running Jitte in your MD (for Mono-R) a good idea (to help control the board better, i used to have lightning bolt X3 but instead added another gempalm and x2 Jitte)? And lastly is running MD tinkerer a must, because currently I am no using him, my deck list is as follows:

*ZIP*

Any advice would be great and I'm considering siding back in King and another Siege-Gang to help vs. the Mirror, is that a good idea? Thanks in advance!

Well, first of all, Patron is better than King since King tends to die a lot and if there are multiple plagues out, King is no good anyways (and Patron kills MUCH faster and isn't a Goblin so it's unaffected by Plague). Jitte is pretty horrible board control since Goblins are small and fragile, dying to the tiniest bits of damage and they wants lots of their race comrades (as many as possible), leading to Jitte causing worse Ringleaders and utility AND costing 4 mana to probably only have opponent kill the equipped creature. The only reason I see for running Jitte in Goblins is to kill opposing ones, but you have artifact removal for that, which happens to be way more versatile too. But yea, Jitte is basically always a win-more.

If you're going mono-red, Tinkerer is HIGHLY suggested in MULTIPLES. Vial is the one card that wins mirrors and Tinkerer is by far the best mono-red Goblin-answer to it. It also helps against LOTS of problem artifacts. All in all, heavily endorsed. You can do well without it, but in harder MUs, it grows in power (and helps against good ones too by taking out Needles and enabling Vial to do its thing).

And Kiki-Jiki should usually be SGC. Basically, SGC is almost always better than Kiki as you rather want an SGC post-Wrath and off Lackey, both kill fast. Also, SGC gives you direct damage while Kiki has a blank stare in the face of Moat, Ensnaring Bridge, Platinum Angel or anything of the sort.

[Tacosnape]

Iunno. I've never really found Umezawa's Jitte to be anywhere near as threatening as Engineered Plague, because there's so many ways to get around it. Don't forget, Tin-Street Hooligan still lurks in the SB-Ray of Revelation build, and against Fish decks, simply killing off their creatures before they go active isn't all that difficult a proposition (I can even STP the random Galina's Knight.) Mogg Fanatic can also work wonders here, not just for picking off the creature, but for preventing the opponent from getting Jitte counters.

I also cut down to two Wastelands and four Ports in the Ray build. I found Port to fill the role of the deck actually doing something on turn two, and a lot of times I've found myself even in 23-land builds having to sit on Wasteland for more mana.

[Onphyre]

Well, first of all, Patron is better than King since King tends to die a lot and if there are multiple plagues out, King is no good anyways (and Patron kills MUCH faster and isn't a Goblin so it's unaffected by Plague). Jitte is pretty horrible board control since Goblins are small and fragile, dying to the tiniest bits of damage and they wants lots of their race comrades (as many as possible), leading to Jitte causing worse Ringleaders and utility AND costing 4 mana to probably only have opponent kill the equipped creature. The only reason I see for running Jitte in Goblins is to kill opposing ones, but you have artifact removal for that, which happens to be way more versatile too. But yea, Jitte is basically always a win-more.

If you're going mono-red, Tinkerer is HIGHLY suggested in MULTIPLES. Vial is the one card that wins mirrors and Tinkerer is by far the best mono-red Goblin-answer to it. It also helps against LOTS of problem artifacts. All in all, heavily endorsed. You can do well without it, but in harder MUs, it grows in power (and helps against good ones too by taking out Needles and enabling Vial to do its thing).

And Kiki-Jiki should usually be SGC. Basically, SGC is almost always better than Kiki as you rather want an SGC post-Wrath and off Lackey, both kill fast. Also, SGC gives you direct damage while Kiki has a blank stare in the face of Moat, Ensnaring Bridge, Platinum Angel or anything of the sort.

Thanks a lot for the advice, I have decided to take out kiki for a 3rd Siege-Gang and also the 2 Jitte for 2 Tinkerers. Should I have the Jitte SB and should I keep Sharpshooter or add a 3rd Tinkerer? I have also decided to add King to the SB (because I have no Akki right now), and I am taking out 1 Pillar. Should I take out 1 Pyrokinesis and 1 REB/1 Tormond's Crypt for the 2 Jitte SB or should I leave Jitte completley out? Lastly any other advice for SB in terms of cards I should have for Mono-R?
Thanks again for all the help!

[Jak]

Leave the Jittes out. They are not worth the room. I also think you should cut down on the Fetches. You really have no purpose for running that much. Probably go down to like 4 or something.

Now for the SB I would put something like this together

4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Anarchy
4 Pyrokinesis

That was my old mono red SB. Chalice is really good all around, so you want that in. Anarchy is really good for a lot of the problem enchantments (moat, humility, solitary confinement) and for other mono white decks. You could probably fit some Akkis in there also to fight plague. Maybe cut a pillar and pyrokinesis.

[Awesomator]

I dont personally think anarchy is necessary, white weenie actually loses to goblins if you are playing green or white. Killing the jittes and swords = killing white weenie. As for using it against enchantm,ents, it's an expensive disenchant/grip that could possibly kill multiple copies. I don't really see a reason to run mono red anymore, but i do think it was superior at a point. I don't particularly like the white vuild although armageddon helps vs bad matchups. It seems like the goblins forum has been dying out a bit and the solidarity guys are beating us with replies, so we need to get some more topics. The posts have been running around in circles with the same ideas. Wastelands + vial is ridiculous, especially since solidarity is running volcanics now. Wasteland is good against every deck in the format, and i don't see a real reason to cut any since 23 land + 4 vial should mean you don't get land screwed.

[Tacosnape]

Wastelands + vial is ridiculous, especially since solidarity is running volcanics now. Wasteland is good against every deck in the format

There's two problems with this.

First of all, in order for Wasteland to be ridiculous, you have to have a working Vial in play (Or have a Lackey connect.) If you don't manage to get either one (Your lackey gets blown up and/or you don't draw vial or it gets countered), you need all the land you can get, and the more red, the better. You won't be able to safely throw Wasteland at your opponent when your initial tempo burst gets stopped and you're trying to stall for a turn or two until you can drop out Warchiefs, Ringleaders, Siege-Gang Commanders, and the like.

Second of all, Wasteland is -not- good against every deck in the format, and everyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. Just because a card has potential targets against nearly every deck in the format doesn't mean it's good. Solidarity will -never- fetch that Volcanic against you, so that Wasteland's only going to help if they draw it, whereas having a single red source and two colorless won't help a lot when you're holding Warchiefs in hand.

Now, that said, there are indeed times when Wasteland is absolutely amazing. I won't list them all here, because most of us know what and when they are.

Rishadan Port, while not being as powerful a disruption card, is a lot more forgiving to the deck's mana curve. For one, it doesn't go away in order to provide its disruption. After a turn one Lackey gets removed or gets a decent threat stuck in front of it (and it does more often than not), a turn two tapping down of a land can often be crucial in buying just enough time for the turn three Warchief/Matron to begin the swing. Wasteland affords no such luxury. A turn two Wasteland after a failed Lackey will keep you from dropping the chief the next turn, and is only fantastic if you've got a second Lackey or a Vial.

Port is interestingly stronger against certain decks. Decks packing manlands and Crucible of Worlds or LFTL, for instance, will simply recur the lands should you waste them. Port, however, will lock that land down repeatedly. Most of these decks pack Wasteland, of course, but they won't always -have- the Wasteland. Port is also a more efficient disruption tool against decks with basic lands. The key point here is that many, many, many decks have evolved to the point where they are often able to fetch basics in lieu of dual lands should they be facing Wasteland.

For this reason, it's important never to run without Wasteland in Goblins (As well as the reason that sometimes Wasteland is just absolutely incredible.) However, running the full compliment of eight has in the past proven tricky for consistently getting double red. For reference, you have 15 lands that produce Red, as well as your four Vials, if you run 23 lands with 8 colorless lands. Red Death has occasional trouble hitting Double Black with 17 lands that produce black and 4 Dark Rituals. I rarely run the full 8, as I'm not comfortable with any less than 16 red sources in Goblins.

So, in 22 land builds, because I want the lands that stick around more, I run 4 Ports and 2 Wastelands (Or 3 and 3, depending on what I think I'll be facing.) In 23 land builds, I run 4/3, varying which I cut based on the metagame.

[Onphyre]

I am just wondering, is Plague a big enough problem in terms of being widley used in the current metagame? Or is it something you will face once in a while but there isn't much need to take up any SB space to deal with it (Akki/King)? This refering to the Mono-R versions which do not pack any enchantment hate. Any help from some one familiar with the current metagame would be apreciated.

[kicks_422]

Plague is VERY prevalent, and you should expect them boarded in against you by any deck that runs black. For mono-red versions, the best way to fight through it has always been Akki and King, but your mana disruption is also key in preventing them from reaching 3 mainphase mana to cast it.

[Radley]

Is there someone who already tried to maindeck krosan grip? I know it might just sit in your hand against decks without enchantments but having it in MD gives you an answer to solitary confinement, plagues, ghostly prison, propaganda and an added answer to artifacts like smokestack, chalice of the void, trinisphere, scepter and lots of other artifacts.

[Nightmare]

Is there someone who already tried to maindeck krosan grip? I know it might just sit in your hand against decks without enchantments but having it in MD gives you an answer to solitary confinement, plagues, ghostly prison, propaganda and an added answer to artifacts like smokestack, chalice of the void, trinisphere, scepter and lots of other artifacts.Machinus is an advocate of 4x MD Goblin Tinkerer, which solves most of those issues, while still being a Goblin. Really, the issue with MD cards that aren't goblins is their tendancy to decrease the potency of your Ringleader draws. It may be worth some testing.

[Awesomator]

that is why you should run 8 port/wastes. When I win G1 vs solidarity, it is because port and waste come through to help me. A lot of times solidarity has a voilcanic in hand by turn four, they would definitely not fetch it. I rarely get land screwed with goblins, because 23 land is a lot. I can afford to use 8 colorless lands because a high majority of the time I will have double red, even through LD. Anytime wasteland can hit a target, it's good. Potential to landscrew, slowdown, or change your opponents overall plan in the match makes it good anytime you can hit something.

[Radley]

Machinus is an advocate of 4x MD Goblin Tinkerer, which solves most of those issues, while still being a Goblin. Really, the issue with MD cards that aren't goblins is their tendancy to decrease the potency of your Ringleader draws. It may be worth some testing.

Goblin tinkerer only destroys artifacts. Tin street hooligan can take care of it. So, you can't do anything against enchantment and just lose the game against loam/confinement?

[Nightmare]

Goblin tinkerer only destroys artifacts. Tin street hooligan can take care of it. So, you can't do anything against enchantment and just lose the game against loam/confinement?1. I said it's worth testing.
2. Hooligan is terrible with Warchief out (which you should be striving for), since you can't pay a green for him. It's also pretty bad with Lackey and Vial.
3. If you're splashing Green, why wouldn't you play Tranquil Domain and nuke everything, rather than just one enchantment? If split-second is your reasoning, how many decks packing blue control have enchantments you're concerned about?

[Eldariel]

that is why you should run 8 port/wastes. When I win G1 vs solidarity, it is because port and waste come through to help me. A lot of times solidarity has a voilcanic in hand by turn four, they would definitely not fetch it. I rarely get land screwed with goblins, because 23 land is a lot. I can afford to use 8 colorless lands because a high majority of the time I will have double red, even through LD. Anytime wasteland can hit a target, it's good. Potential to landscrew, slowdown, or change your opponents overall plan in the match makes it good anytime you can hit something.

Hitting with Wasteland isn't always correct. Heck, if this were your gameplan, you'd be playing a deck with essentially 19 lands. The power of Wasteland is the chance of choice, you can either hit or not hit depending on your board development and your opponent's mana needs. Sure, sometimes you'll have to hit and pray, but often you should rather choose to not hit (of course, if you have a Vial or a Lackey going, it's a no-brainer to go ballistic with land denial). I'd still never actually run the deck in a tournament with any less than 8 pieces of mana denial, since those are so integral to actually winning against random hate (which is why I'm so satisfied in the Rg-build with 24 lands, that gives me mana stability AND 4 of each mana disruption tool).

But yea, MD Disenchants have tried and worked just fine in the white versions, I don't see why you couldn't MD Krosan Grips too if you had the room for it.


As for Tin Street, the dissynergy with Warchief is VERY rarely an issue, much less often than the fact that Tinkerer needs an upkeep-step if Warchief isn't around to help him (since many of the cards you want him to kill actually kill him first). Usually Warchief is the first to die if you really meet some of the troublesome artifacts (in mirror, Warchiefs tend to die a lot). In the very few cases where you need to kill some passive artifacts and have somehow managed to get a Warchief into play and to stick, you might have to Gempalm your own Warchief, but that's a small price to pay for winning the game, especially since this tends to only occur against stuff like...Ensnaring Bridge?

[Tacosnape]

Eldy, from your posts I'm gathering you've got 24 Land and 3 Tin-Streets, as well as 4 Vials. That leaves you 29 slots for other Goblins.

As the generally accepted "Normal 31" is 4 Lackey, Driver, Matron, Chief, Ringleader, Fanatic, Incinerator, and 3 Siege-Gangs, what two did you cut out to make that fit?

[Eldariel]

Eldy, from your posts I'm gathering you've got 24 Land and 3 Tin-Streets, as well as 4 Vials. That leaves you 29 slots for other Goblins.

As the generally accepted "Normal 31" is 4 Lackey, Driver, Matron, Chief, Ringleader, Fanatic, Incinerator, and 3 Siege-Gangs, what two did you cut out to make that fit?

Incin and SGC presently. 'Normal 32' would actually be 4-of all you listed, but due to the fact that the game isn't actually just about goldfishing and that Goblins are heavily hated at, some cuts need to be made. Incin might hurt at some point, but as you can see, I've de-emphasised the Lackey-plan against aggro as most aggro has been built to deal with Lackey by now (therefore Incin isn't relevant for the purposes of letting Lackey through and SGC isn't relevant for the purposes of dropping off Lackey). I'd really love to have the 3rd SGC for many MUs, but ultimately, with Ringleaders and Matrons I can find it often enough and it's not a card I like to see in my opening 7, except against combo with Lackey in hand too, or against slow decks with a Vial in hand. Incin, outside taking out random X/1s, is only usually good mid- to lategame (or when your Lackey connected) so I find cutting to 3 a perfectly plausible thing to do (although in mirror, I'd like 4, but then again, Tin Street is great in the mirror so it's ok).

[Jaynel]

@ Eldariel:
Are there a lot of Goblin decks in your meta? Do you face the mirror often?

@ eveyone:
If yes, would you say the Goblins mirror is better with 4 Incinerators and less Hooligans, or better with 3 Incinerators and more Hooligans?

I've built my deck to have an advantage over white splash Goblins and mono red Goblins (decks that run rampant in my metagame). I've recently added Lightning Bolts. Eldariel, you run less removal and more Hooligans, so I'd just like some insight.

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
5 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga

4 Goblin Lackey
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander

4 AEther Vial
3 Lightning Bolt

Sideboard:
2 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Krosan Grip
3 Chalice of the Void
2 <<utility slots>> (Pyromancer and Ib?)

Would the 4th Fanatic be better than the 4th Incinerator? Would more maindeck Hooligans be better? If so, over what?

Is the addition of Lightning Bolts a step backwards?

Thanks.

[ForceofWill]

You shouldn't be playing bolt in goblins. I watched people play goblins with bolt and they hit it with ringleader and I smile always. I'd go 4 fanatic 2-3 tin street or add another land. AS for the sideboard I don't know what your meta is like but 4 chalice is so huge against many decks. Also Pillar is not just good against combo but also decks like deadguy and thresh.

[Eldariel]

Bolt never appeared very good to me unless you're hellbent on the Lackey-plan (I'd rather not be, I just use it as general utility and to force bad plays from my opponent). On average, with Warchiefs and Piledrivers and SGCs, your average Goblin will be dealing more damage to the head come midgame and act as better removal and Ringleader-hits too. 4th Fanatic for a Bolt definitely (unless you see a LOT of Humility and Plague, although even then, Bolt is not the answer you're looking for) and something over the last 2 Bolts. Pyrokinesis is one card I've been toying around with a singleton in MD to open up one SB-slot. I don't know for sure, it'd weaken the MD by a bit (due to Ringleaders being worse and you having less Goblin-removal to tutor (as it'd be a Gempalm-slot pretty much invariably as they do about the same job)), but it'd strengthen the SB by giving you an open slot. I don't know about it yet.

I went through the mirror in one of my earlier posts, but to recap:
-Gobs are the deck MOST vulnerable to Lackey on draw, so leading with a turn 1 Lackey is a fine plan. At the very least, it forces them to answer with a Fanatic or a Bolt or such, so they don't get ahead with a Vial.
-Vial is the real key to the MU. If you get a Vial and your opponent doesn't, you'll just win. It isn't really any more complex than that. Very rarely (and requiring lots of tempo-cards like Pyrokinesis and Warchief, as well as strong landdrops) can an opponent overcome an active Vial while he's missing one. I often mull to Vials in the mirror. Because of this, Tin Street is the best of the cards you listed in the mirror. Tinkerer can be killed before it can knock out the Vial and opponent gets one more use out of his, but Tin Street knocks it dead (and obviously, if you plan on using Tin Street, your first land should be a Mountain).
-The ultimate card in the mirror is Mountain. Seriously, with all the land denial flying both ways and all the mana cheating and answers cancelling each other out, the deck with more lands wins the majority of the games as neither deck tends to run out of cards with Ringleaders, Matrons and SGCs resolving unopposed so the deck with more mana wins.

Ultimately, the mirror is all about mana. The player who gets more mana wins the mirror. Lackey is the ultimate Lotus, but doesn't connect too often. Vial comes next, but tends to blow up, which makes lands the ultimate mirror-cards, which is why I'm liking 24.

[Jaynel]

Smart Goblins runs 3 Swords to Plowshares maindeck, and it's done pretty well in the past. In the mirror, Lightning Bolt does eveything that Swords to Plowshares does, but can also be aimed at the dome to punch through the last few points of damage. It also doesn't require fetching out a dual, an important strategy to combat enemy Wastelands, especially in the mirror.

I still run 31 goblins, which is the number generally accepted to support Ringleader consistently; that means I hit 2-3 Goblins on average. Flipping a Bolt isn't that likely. Plus, I'd rather draw into a Bolt than a Pyromancer, Sharpshooter, or another utility goblin when I need to get rid of a threat.

Again, I just want to emphasize that this list is strongly focused on having an edge in mirror. I want to be optimized to face the mirror, yet not weaken the deck against many other matchups.

[Eldariel]

Smart Goblins runs 3 Swords to Plowshares maindeck, and it's done pretty well in the past. In the mirror, Lightning Bolt does eveything that Swords to Plowshares does, but can also be aimed at the dome to punch through the last few points of damage. It also doesn't require fetching out a dual, an important strategy to combat enemy Wastelands, especially in the mirror.

I still run 31 goblins, which is the number generally accepted to support Ringleader consistently; that means I hit 2-3 Goblins on average. Flipping a Bolt isn't that likely. Plus, I'd rather draw into a Bolt than a Pyromancer, Sharpshooter, or another utility goblin when I need to get rid of a threat.

Again, I just want to emphasize that this list is strongly focused on having an edge in mirror. I want to be optimized to face the mirror, yet not weaken the deck against many other matchups.

Good Ringleaders count for tons in the mirror. Mono-R Gobs without Bolts tends to beat Smart Goblins most of the time in the mirror, just the difference isn't THAT large so it doesn't directly correlate with the tournament results. There's a reason the 4-Tinkerer build does well and why Tin Street is so popular presently. Oh, and if you REALLY insist on MDing something, put Pyrokinesis in, it's far stronger than Bolt or StP in the mirror due to the 'huge tempo swing of multiple kill-spells for free'-part.

[DarkAkuma]

I've been playing te RG version of goblins, with 3 Tin-Streets main. Tin-Street and Tinkerer seem to both have their pros and cons. Since we do play 4 Matrons, has anyoe tried a mix of the 2? I've been thinking of trying 1 Tinkerer and 1 Tin-Street main, with my normal 3-4 Krosan Grips board. A mix of 1-2 or 2-2 main may work too. But anyway, how often do people find themselves Matroning for their artifact killing gobs?

[Radley]

1. I said it's worth testing.
2. Hooligan is terrible with Warchief out (which you should be striving for), since you can't pay a green for him. It's also pretty bad with Lackey and Vial.
3. If you're splashing Green, why wouldn't you play Tranquil Domain and nuke everything, rather than just one enchantment? If split-second is your reasoning, how many decks packing blue control have enchantments you're concerned about?

I suggested krosan grip because it can also destroy artifact, not only enchantments. If a card can only destroy enchantments then it wouldn't deserve to be maindecked. If I have to SB against enchantments, then I'd use burning wish to get reverent silence so if I don't need to destroy enchantments, maybe I can burning wish a finisher(maybe not a good idea at all :tongue: ).

[Cait_Sith]

Burning Wish is a non-goblin card and therefore bad in this deck. Honestly, the only situation where Krosan Grip is actually better than Naturalize is against MUC (which is an auto win anyways) and Trix (To kill their Illusion of Grandeur). If other nasty artifacts (or enchantments) comes up that blue can seriously abuse then Grip will probably become more useful, but without that Naturalize costing 2 is just better.

[Radley]

Krosan grip is only useful against isochron scepter. Krosan grip is also a non-goblin card like burning wish although I wouldn't push the idea of adding burning wish because it's at sorcery speed.

[Eldariel]

Burning Wish is a non-goblin card and therefore bad in this deck. Honestly, the only situation where Krosan Grip is actually better than Naturalize is against MUC (which is an auto win anyways) and Trix (To kill their Illusion of Grandeur). If other nasty artifacts (or enchantments) comes up that blue can seriously abuse then Grip will probably become more useful, but without that Naturalize costing 2 is just better.

Err, or against any WU, UB or such control that plays troublesome enchantments (&#225; la Humility, Engineered Plague, Moat) and protects it with counters, or anything with troublesome artifacts and counters (Ux Fish, Faerie Stompy, etc.). Also forces suboptimal plays off Jittes if they don't want you to risk losing counters, prevents waiting on Cursed Scroll till EoT, prevents using Aether Vial as a combat trick, prevents waiting on Ravagers, prevents responding with cycle-Rift, etc. The split second is SO strong. I really don't get these 'onlys' of yours. Legacy is an OPEN format with LOTS of randomness, so how X works against randomness matters. A lot. That's the real advantage of Krosan Grip and the real reason we don't just play Ray of Revelation instead.

[Tacosnape]

prevents using Aether Vial as a combat trick,

Er. Exactly what Aether Vial-packing deck are you boarding Krosan Grip in against? Bad white decks that haven't figured out that Aether Vial and Plains have no business being in the same deck? Ditto for bad Survival builds?


Burning Wish is a non-goblin card and therefore bad in this deck.

So we should take out Aether Vial, Wasteland, and Mountain? And replace the sideboard cards with Goblins? Sounds like a plan.

Actually, the highest placing Goblin decks over time have had maindeck cards besides Land, Vial, and Goblins more often than not. What card this is can vary. Usually it's Swords to Plowshares or Pyrokinesis. Sometimes it's Disenchant, Naturalize/Grip, Jitte, Therapy, or even Crypt.

I'm not altogether sure I'm violently opposed to the concept of Burning Wish, actually. It's not like this deck has a hell of a lot better to do on turn two. There's plenty of targets available.

-Hull Breach (Hit maindecked plagues and Jittes), Land Grant (Grab a third land or green source if you're short on land,)
-Reverent Silence (Own double plague/enchantress/moat stuff. Costs 0 Mana.)
-Anarchy (wreck pro-red based white decks)
-Land Grant (Finds a Taiga when you need more land)
-Tsunami (Rawr!)

I don't think it would necessarily be optimal to run Burning Wish, but there'd be no more auto-conceding to cards Goblins can't deal with (Soli-Con, maindeck Plague, etc.)

[Gekoratel]

Actually, the highest placing Goblin decks over time have had maindeck cards besides Land, Vial, and Goblins more often than not. What card this is can vary. Usually it's Swords to Plowshares or Pyrokinesis. Sometimes it's Disenchant, Naturalize/Grip, Jitte, Therapy, or even Crypt.

I tend to agree with this statement, once you have a critical mass of Goblins in your deck adding 3-4 other slots is fine. The difference of flopping 2.2 to 2.4 Goblins off Ringleader is not that big a difference. Personally I've been running 3x MD Pyrokinesis in every version of Goblins I play because it is useful against all the random creature decks in the format as well as the obvious mirror uses.

Also by having a card that is generally in the SB in the MD you free up more slots in the board so you can dedicate more slots for different matchups. Most sideboards I build begin with 4 Chalice, 4 Pillar, 3-4 Enchantment/Artifact hate and then move from their. If I didn't run Pyro MD then I would be missing another 3-4 slots in the board to mess around with.

[SillyMetalGAT]

I'm not altogether sure I'm violently opposed to the concept of Burning Wish, actually. It's not like this deck has a hell of a lot better to do on turn two. There's plenty of targets available.


Your right about that, but it has a lot better things to do on turn 3. Plus, if you swing Lackey into a Warchief, your options open up very widely. Burning Wish is really too slow for the deck. Sure it helps deal with the E. Plague problem, but thats what a sideboards for.

[Eldariel]

Er. Exactly what Aether Vial-packing deck are you boarding Krosan Grip in against? Bad white decks that haven't figured out that Aether Vial and Plains have no business being in the same deck? Ditto for bad Survival builds?

Affinity, Vial WW (no, it's not necessarily suboptimal as it can reach the coveted Wasteland-immunity and overall have a rather strong gameplan), Vial Fish (y'know those Standstill-variants, they're bound to show up and they pack other targets too like Jittes, SB Plagues if black's there, etc.), Survival (I'm not going to argue whether it's good or bad for Survival to run it, fact is that some do) and a dozen I'm probably forgetting. Also, if it was MDd, it'd of course have some implications in the mirror too.

[Tacosnape]

Affinity, Vial WW (no, it's not necessarily suboptimal as it can reach the coveted Wasteland-immunity and overall have a rather strong gameplan), Vial Fish (y'know those Standstill-variants, they're bound to show up and they pack other targets too like Jittes, SB Plagues if black's there, etc.), Survival (I'm not going to argue whether it's good or bad for Survival to run it, fact is that some do) and a dozen I'm probably forgetting. Also, if it was MDd, it'd of course have some implications in the mirror too.

Ok. I forgot about Affinity.

Still, in addition to every deck you listed being better without Aether Vial (except for -maybe- Affinity), every deck you listed has at least 1-2 targets that are far more likely to be Krosan Gripped, so much so that I'd likely hold the Grip. Vial WW will bring in Jittes, Vial Fish will bring in Jittes -and- Plagues if it's running black, Survival has Survival (and often Plagues).

Again, Affinity's the exception, as Affinity's got Ravagers and Plating, but if the opponent's color-screwed, hitting the Vial would actually be an amazing play here. Some Affinity decks pack Plague, though, which is something to watch for.


Your right about that, but it has a lot better things to do on turn 3. Plus, if you swing Lackey into a Warchief, your options open up very widely. Burning Wish is really too slow for the deck. Sure it helps deal with the E. Plague problem, but thats what a sideboards for.

I suppose I agree. I'm not saying I'd ever run Burning Wish or anything, but you have to keep in mind that a lot of the things you Burning Wished for you wouldn't play on turn 3. Land Grant would be played immediately (or later, but still for no cost) and Reverent Silence could be played at will. Anarchy wouldn't be played until turn four (or later, if you wanted to set things up a bit more.) Hull Breach would only be grabbed if your turn three play was in jeopardy (Active Jitte/Plague on board). Another option is Shattering Spree, which Goblins can abuse pretty well.

[Awesomator]

krosan grip is ALSO better against survival of the fittest, faery stompy, jitte (not giving them the chance to use it if your opponent misplays or has another gameplan), SDT, random counterbalance variants also, random landstill decks. It's just a way better card, and in a 23 land deck, I'm sure you can find another colorless source of mana. Burning wish is a cool idea, but it's too slow and has bad synergy with the deck and the overall goblin plan.

[Phantom]

I agree that Grip is superior in the green splash. The only time I considered Burning Wish was in the black splash, since it has such devastating synergy with Therapy, but that would mean running 2 non Goblin cards, which is probably a bad idea. In the green and white splash, Wish gives you little to nothing vs. Combo, and to me that is its swan song.




Moving in a different direction, I recently found out over on the Card Interactions and Questions board, that Boom // Bust existed. Basically, there are many situations where the card can act as a 1R sinkhole (by targeting your fetch or your waste). Even if we do sac a land, that what Lackey and Vial are for, right? I'm wondering if this isn't the card that mono red was looking for. The hole @ 2cc has been previously discussed, and mono red lives and dies (at least post board) on it's mana disruption.

For over a year now, decks have been fighting Goblins Wastes by going fetch heavy and basic light (see Thresh, Fish, Zoo, etc). Goblins has basically responded with the wonderful Port, but that can't always be relied on.

As for Bust, clearly that isn't the reason to play the card, but I've hard casted plenty of Gang-Bangs in my day, so ramping up to 6 mana and laying a devastating 'geddon isn't out of the question.

Anyway, I think it deserves a hard look. Does anyone else?

[Tacosnape]

Anyway, I think it deserves a hard look. Does anyone else?

Maybe, maybe not. It kind of depends on your philosophy with Goblins.

Decks are more recently packing high amounts of land under the assumption that Lackey and Vial are going to be stopped more often than not, being ready to hardcast things. In this case I don't think Boom//Bust is much of an idea, Even with the ability to hit your Waste or Fetch (It may be a 1R spell, but you need 3 lands to pull it off, and Wasteland has to have a target to maximize that.) Besides, if Lackey/Vial fail, what you need is a way to handle that Rancored Kird Ape that's hitting you in the mouth.

On the flipside, if you're playing the sort of philosophy that maximizes the damage you do when Lackey or Vial -does- stick (8 Mana disruptors, maximum Siege-Gangs, slightly less land counting on Lackey/Vial/Chief to accelerate you into stuff), Boom/Bust simply takes that strategy and advances it a little further, allowing less effective Sinkholes or Armageddons to be run in a deck that could crave them.

[Phantom]

Even with the ability to hit your Waste or Fetch (It may be a 1R spell, but you need 3 lands to pull it off

Hmmm. I had not considered that.

Dammit. That is certainly going to hurt it's effectiveness.

[Bane of the Living]

Machinus is an advocate of 4x MD Goblin Tinkerer, which solves most of those issues, while still being a Goblin. Really, the issue with MD cards that aren't goblins is their tendancy to decrease the potency of your Ringleader draws. It may be worth some testing.

Concerning Tin Street, hes way better against decks like TES that play things like Chrome Mox, Tinkerer isnt worth playing in that situation. Hes great against any combo deck that doesnt have artifacts too since w/ the chief he's 2 damage for 1 mana. The fact that hes ridiculously better against the mirror downright smothers your love for Tinkerbell.

[Cait_Sith]

I need a quick opinion of my R/g build.
// Lands
4 [R] Taiga
4 [TSP] Mountain (1)
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [8E] Goblin King
1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis

Everything else is pretty much standard (3 SGC, 4 everything else) So I didn't include it.

My questions are:

Silver Bullet Hooligan - Should it be 3 Hooligans instead? I can replace the Crucible's in the SB with the other 2, it really is just a holder for the moment.

Should I add some Skarrg, the Rage Pits for extra damage and pseudo evasion? I was thinking in the place of 2 Wasteland or 2 Port.

I have CotV for combo, should I try REB instead?

[Awesomator]

Sharpshooter is ok. I personally like 2-3 tin street. Goblin King is no longer good now that it's a goblin. 23 Land seems to work best, and I would definitely keep all my wastelands and ports. If i were you, I would replace king with a mountain and sharpshooter for another tin street.
My Sideboard:
3x krosan grip
3x pyrokinesis
4x cotv
3x pyrostatic pillar
2x patron of the akki

I like patron better than crucible, but if you want to keep crucible, Patron is probably what you would cut.

[Cait_Sith]

How is king BAD because he is a Goblin? He can be tutored by Matron and Ringleader. He can help play around Engineered Plague until you find a Krosan Grip and he is good anti goblin tech.

Also, the reason I don't like Patron of the Akki is he is a creature that I would need vs Plague, but he is untutorable.

[Cavius The Great]

I need a quick opinion of my R/g build.
// Lands
4 [R] Taiga
4 [TSP] Mountain (1)
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [8E] Goblin King
1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis

Everything else is pretty much standard (3 SGC, 4 everything else) So I didn't include it.

My questions are:

Silver Bullet Hooligan - Should it be 3 Hooligans instead? I can replace the Crucible's in the SB with the other 2, it really is just a holder for the moment.

Should I add some Skarrg, the Rage Pits for extra damage and pseudo evasion? I was thinking in the place of 2 Wasteland or 2 Port.

I have CotV for combo, should I try REB instead?

My Cavius Sligh deck runs 4 Tin-Street Hooligan maindecked and 4 Krosan Grip in the board. So don't think that I got the idea from you once I finally post my build. I've had that idea for a very long time now. :wink:

[Awesomator]

if your opponent has two plagues out, king dies too. I used to play king when he was a lord. Patron is untutorable, but that and grip give you five outs vs plague. King in the mirror can hurt really bad, vs a good goblin player, you should never really have many goblins in play anyway. The 23 land IMO is much more important than having a MD King. King in the board wouldnt help much. Aside of all that, plague doesn't really hurt that bad, unless they get multiples or have a lot of other removal.

[Eldariel]

How is king BAD because he is a Goblin? He can be tutored by Matron and Ringleader. He can help play around Engineered Plague until you find a Krosan Grip and he is good anti goblin tech.

Because he's affected by Plague. He dies to literally any Darkblast, Lava Dart, Plague or any other removal and he can do NOTHING against double Plague. Even multiple Kings tend to just die to Bolts or such (not to mention, it's hard to get multiples into play in due schedule in the first place; generally you could and should kill your opponent with that amount of mana and cards, provided that the slots were well-spent). Pyromancer is better anti-Plague tech too since he can end the game very effectively with one Plague in game. Patron does that too, but isn't tutorable. Still, tutors tend to be too slow against Plague anyways, which is why Patron is so good especially as it's so random meaning that it'll win you games both due to not showing up when opponent prepares for it, and due to showing up when opponent doesn't. If you must have a Goblin-answer to Plague, fit 4 Goblin Goons in between MD and SB. They'll be big even after 2 Plagues and enable all your Goblin-effects like Gempalm, Matron, Ringleader and company even with 2 Plagues in play.

[Cait_Sith]

Right now I have 3 MD Hooligans, they are just that great to draw. I placed the king and Sharpshooter SB. I see what you mean about problems with Plague, and I will try out Patron of the Akki.

Right now my SB is:

1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Krosan Grip
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Patron of the Akki

[Awesomator]

Thats a very good sideboard. However, if there is a lot of combo in your meta, I would highly suggest the 4th chalice, otherwise sharpshooter is a great card.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Maybe it was already discussed and I missed it, but I'm curious as to how you folks deal with Tivadar's Crusade. My assumptions were basically:

1. Try to keep 1WW unavailable.
2. Win first.
3. Don't overcommit.

I mean, there's nothing like Krosan Grip for white sorceries, is there?

[Cait_Sith]

1. Try to keep 1WW unavailable.
2. Win first.
3. Don't overcommit.

Although Red does have a counterspell, it is fairly bad, so these are your best options. Remember, Tivadar's Crusade is a turn 3 Wrath of God. If you have a Vial out is can actually not hurt at all, since you can rebuild your board in a turn or 2 at most. Otherwise those are always good plans even in you KNOW they don't play Crusade.

On my SB:

I don't know if Thresh or Combo will be more popular at Columbus, so I don't know whether to use 3 Pyrostatic Pillar or 3 Tormod's Crypt.

[Awesomator]

umm Tividar's Crusade does nothing if you don't completely over extend, saving a matron or ringleader if it's your only goblin left works best. Cait Sith, go with Pillar. Thresh is a very good matchup for goblins. The reason I run 4 chalice is also because it buries almost every draw spell in thresh, not to mention it counters nimble mongoose, and swords to plowshares if they're running white, otherwise, it counters lightning bolt. Chalice usually resolves also, because you have so many cards they have to counter to survive. Chalice gets boarded vs boros, combo, thresh, burn, a lot of zoo variants, among other decks. Chalice is a must play 4 i think, pillar is a must play, but 3 does the trick for me.

[Eldariel]

I personally like playing Crypts over the Patrons. While this means less answers to Plague, it helps against LOTS of difficult control-decks (any Loam-based control tends to be a bitch), Reanimator, Threshold (it's still popular enough to care about) and Iggy. This is just because I don't like having SB-cards just to deal with one single card (I tend to be able to Grip at least the second Plague rather often anyways), so I guess it's a personal choice between a more versatile SB and a more specific answer to a problematic hatecard. Then there's the whole 'MD stuff'-alternative with Patrons/Pyrokinesis/such to get space for both.

[Tacosnape]

Because he's affected by Plague. He dies to literally any Darkblast, Lava Dart, Plague or any other removal and he can do NOTHING against double Plague. Even multiple Kings tend to just die to Bolts or such (not to mention, it's hard to get multiples into play in due schedule in the first place; generally you could and should kill your opponent with that amount of mana and cards, provided that the slots were well-spent). Pyromancer is better anti-Plague tech too since he can end the game very effectively with one Plague in game. Patron does that too, but isn't tutorable. Still, tutors tend to be too slow against Plague anyways, which is why Patron is so good especially as it's so random meaning that it'll win you games both due to not showing up when opponent prepares for it, and due to showing up when opponent doesn't. If you must have a Goblin-answer to Plague, fit 4 Goblin Goons in between MD and SB. They'll be big even after 2 Plagues and enable all your Goblin-effects like Gempalm, Matron, Ringleader and company even with 2 Plagues in play.

I don't believe Goblin King is meant to be an answer to Engineered Plague at all, though a pre-emptive one can on rare occasions fill this role. Goblin King is meant to grant evasion. Mostly in the mirror or against decks splashing red for burn, like Red Death or Zoo variants.

[Awesomator]

Patron isn't just against plague, I board it in vs decks with removal. I board it vs control and also vs burn (rare but can be a painful matchup). Patron is also good when your opponent is boarding in pyroclasm. I've always found loam decks to be easy matchups, and Patron is actually very good in that matchup when they get tabernacle out. Reanimator is not a good matchup, but it is winnable through ports and wastes, and it is extremely rare to see it. Patron doesn't just help vs plague, but it's als a 7/5 beatstick which makes your other guys +2+0, can be played as an instant to replace a creature already targeted for removal, and doesnt kill them at end of turn.

[Eldariel]

I don't believe Goblin King is meant to be an answer to Engineered Plague at all, though a pre-emptive one can on rare occasions fill this role. Goblin King is meant to grant evasion. Mostly in the mirror or against decks splashing red for burn, like Red Death or Zoo variants.

I know, but we were talking about specifically his role against Engineered Plague, where he isn't very impressive. He does have some merit, but I'd rather just overwhelm than evade, and the slots are tight as it stands.

[Awesomator]

Ya there really is no need to make your guys unblockable, not to mention that any deck running red also will just burn it, so there are better cards to matron for, I'd probably just rather go for card advantage with ringleader, or maybe siege gang depending on the situation.

[frogboy]

I don't believe Goblin King is meant to be an answer to Engineered Plague at all...Goblin King is meant to grant evasion. Mostly in the mirror or against decks splashing red for burn, like Red Death or Zoo variants.

You are wrong.

[Awesomator]

well it's obviously meant to answer plague, it's just not a very good answer.

[Cait_Sith]

It almost completely neutralizes single plague and is tutorable. Also, if you have 2 in play it not only completely neutralizes single plague (with a bonus) but avoids double plague as well. I am really starting to like it over Patron of the Akki.

[Awesomator]

If a player playing black has double plague and cant remove a king then something is wrong. King was much better as a lord. If Patron comes out at instant speed and deals at least 7 if the rest of your board is gone(whether you sac your last guy or set vial at 6). Patron may only hit once when it swings before it likely gets removed, but if you have other shrunken goblins in play they now deal at least 2 as well. If your opponent has double plague before you get double king, you have little outs. If your opponent has other removal such as vindicate (dead guy), chain lightning or lightning bolt (red death), infest, damnation darkblast, or any form of removal, then you have to rely drawing a krosan grip and rebuilding. Having outs is an important thing, especially since every black deck runs plague + other forms of removal. You should find that the ,ajority of the time your board will be wiped out against black, it's nice to be able to vial or goblin offering (if targeted by and of the above cards or any form of removal in general other than damnation) in a fat creature that can do some serious damage. The added bonus of patron is that it's also good in decks where your creatures get targeted for removal or weaker forms of mass removal, whether it's swords, pyroclasm, or forms of burn.

[Bane of the Living]

If a player playing black has double plague and cant remove a king then something is wrong. King was much better as a lord. If Patron comes out at instant speed and deals at least 7 if the rest of your board is gone(whether you sac your last guy or set vial at 6). Patron may only hit once when it swings before it likely gets removed, but if you have other shrunken goblins in play they now deal at least 2 as well. If your opponent has double plague before you get double king, you have little outs. If your opponent has other removal such as vindicate (dead guy), chain lightning or lightning bolt (red death), infest, damnation darkblast, or any form of removal, then you have to rely drawing a krosan grip and rebuilding. Having outs is an important thing, especially since every black deck runs plague + other forms of removal. You should find that the ,ajority of the time your board will be wiped out against black, it's nice to be able to vial or goblin offering (if targeted by and of the above cards or any form of removal in general other than damnation) in a fat creature that can do some serious damage. The added bonus of patron is that it's also good in decks where your creatures get targeted for removal or weaker forms of mass removal, whether it's swords, pyroclasm, or forms of burn.

You just won another tourny sunday right? How was Patron? When did you bring him in?

[Awesomator]

Umm Sunday my 1st round was gobs I won 2-0
2nd round was aluren I won 2-0
3rd round was slivers I won 2-0
4th round was burn and I gave the win (we played it out for fun and I won 2-0).
5th round in semi finals I played against the same burn kid and beat him 2-0 again.
6th round I agreed to split for most of the prize with the mirror match I faced 1st round.

I boarded in patron vs burn and it helped like it usually does.. patron isn't worth boarding in vs aggro and thats what I played most of the time. The meta here is different so I took out the three pillars and switched them to 3 pithing needle for the day which helped when I named cavern harpy, but pillar would have done the same thing.

Just played another by the way.

1st Round - Angel Stompy. Rishadan port was MVP leaving my opponent with just an ancient tomb and one untapped plains while i swung in for the win. 2-0

2nd Round - u/w Kenji Fish. I come out of the gate quick and rush him both games. 2-0

3rd Round - Sligh. I drop a massive amount of creatures leaving a ringleader in hand, he pyroclasms my board and I instantly rebuild. 2-0

4th Round - Force of Will and I draw in.

5th Round - semi finals I get paired vs my round one opponent. I drop a huge rush of creatures and kill his equipments with tin streets. 2-0

6th round - Force of Will and I split.

Keep playing vs aggro, so Patron hasn't done well in the area I'm in, but it will be much less aggro at GP. I did board patron vs sligh since it's basically auto win if I get it out, but I never saw it.

[ASSASSIN]

I'm a young french player of goblin so sorry for my English mistakes.

I've play this deck since the GP Lille and I test a lot of solutions. Finally have really a base incuttable :

13 moutain
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland

4 aether vial

4 goblin lackey
4 mogg fanatic
4 goblin piledriver
4 gempalm incinerator
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin matron
4 goblin ringlader
2 Sieg-gang commander
1 skirk prospector
1 goblin tinkerer
1 goblin sharpshooter

Why don't play lightning bolt ?
Because the really problem with gobbo is not the creature (and have pyrokinesis :D).

Why don't splash ?
Because the splash W give only stp (same reason of bolt) and disenchant. And disenchant help against plague, confinement and all other enchantement. But with calice with 2 counter you can't play disenchant against confinement, anarchy destroy all the really bad enchantement (confinement, worship, R/CoP:R) except plague and help against WW/AS.
The splash U for intruder alarm is funny but it is all.
The splash B for discard is a bad idea because contrary of extend gobbo have good turn one. I don't test Dralnu's crusade but it is only against plague and protection red...
I don' test the splash G. For krosian grip it is the best splash I think. I buy taiga, test and say after :).

Why don't play fetchs ?
Because one PV against aggressive deck is important because in this match-up we are the controle. And epure deck is not interesting in all game with goblin.

So a base of 58 cards.
For the 2 slots restants I test :
-1 Sieg-gang commander : Goblin is too long for an aggro and SGC is too much for the deck, two in hand is a pain. So 2 card with an Converted Cost of 5 is the maximum
-1 Kiki : he is very funny. But 3 red is hard and he have too a CC of 5. And when SGC give win against control, kiki deal two in each turn :/. Against combo we prefer a SGC for put it with lackey and kill turn3. Against aggro when you can put SGC or kiki it is you have win the game :).
-1 moutain : I think about it but finally the really good hand is with vial and 2/3 land so add a supplementary land is not good.
-1 goblin king : It is not a bad card, but he is middle. Versus first plague he help, with surprise effect after block, for moutainwalking, a +1/+1 bonus, her CC of 3 is perfect for the vial's curve. It is really interesting in the toolbox. But the cost of 2 red is to much. And in same game in mirror I can't play it because my opponant can kill me.
-second tinkerer : an 1/2 without effect in same game, I prefer only one for the tool box.
-2 pyrokinesis : don't confuse, it is not a stp or a bolt. He don't kill a creature but all the aggro in killing 3 or 4 creature without disturb the play (don't cost a turn), kill a creature of FS, kill auriok salvager. Versus combo I win 2/3 games in killed my goblins and deals the last point in sharp. It is juste an funny anecdote :p.

So usually I play 2 pyrokinesis or 1 goblin king and a new secret loose tech :)

Sibeboard :
4 calice of the void
4 pyrokinesis (or 2 pyrokinesis and 2 other slots)
3 pyrostatic pillar
2 anarchy
2 Red Elemental blast

I have really test same and same version of sideboard with 4,3,2,1 REB, 3,2,1 anarchy, 3 needle, 3,2 tormod's crypt, 4,3 pillar, 2 patron of the akki, 2,3, 4 pyrokinesis, 2 sulfurous vortex.

Finally with calice, pyrokinesis, anarchy, RED and pillar needle and tormod becomes useless. But with an other configuration tormod and needle is pretty is SB.
REB is not really good, it is hard to keep one red untap for coast it in the first turn against combo, more than two is useless against control for help play card important.
patron of the Akki is good against burn and it is a solution against 2 plague. But it is untutorisable so when you play your patron opponant play one of his stp (or other anti-creature). It is a card to conditionnal. It is a false good card.
sulfurous vortex is a pillar only against control plus versus life (played by only one person but I can't win without and I play in all tournament against he :()

The best explication is my table of Sideboard accompagned of a commentary :
-mirror : -1 tinkerer (destroy a vial in late game is useless) -1 SGC (in first game he is good but post-SB it is not optimal) for add the 2 supplementary pyrokinesis.

-******** : -4 mogg fanatic +4 calice of the void
mogg fanatic is really useless in this match-up and he have a CC of 1 and I would put calice with one counter. REB and pillar is not necessary, the best solution is the swarm. I keep the 2 pyrokinesis for can kill a big creature for assure the win.

-IGGy pop : -1 franc-tireur -3 ringlader -4 gempalm -2 pyrokinesis +4 CoTV +3 pillar + 2 REB.
ringlader is too long (and SGC in lackey is better against IGG). REB is against intuition (or mystical/brainstorm if you want but first against intuition).

-high tide : -4 gempalm -2 pyrokinesis -3 fanatic +4 CoTV +3 pillar + 2 REB
fanatic is useless with calice with one counter.

-aluren : -3 gempalm -1 pyrokinesis -1 tinkerer +3 pillar + 2 REB
The anti-creatures are not the solution VS aluren so I prefer desside him for can keep all my draw motors. I keep one gempalm for tutorise it with matrone and aluren in play and one pyrokinesis against wall in begin.

-salvager : -3 gempalm +3 pillar
I test CoTV in 1 and I prefer pillar, why kill the combo and help when salvager want control. I keep pyrokinesis why can kill an auriok salvager.

-belcher (BGR with ETW) : -2 gempalm/pyrokinesis -2 pyrokinesis +4 CoTV
Calice in 0 Turn one is a help against belcher. After shearch a goblin tinkerer an normaly you win. If he wants test a ETW you may shearch fastly a sharp and erase the table :).

-Faerie Stompy : -1 skrik -3 fanatic +2 pyrokinesis +2 REB
pyrokinesis in a creature in response in a equipement kill the only creature of FS and give you two turns (except if the creature is proR :'(). REB is totally giant....if calice in one is not in play :p. But it is most utile than fanatic and skrirk.

-burn : -2 pyrokinesis -2 fanatic +4 calice of the void
calice in one is synonym of win.

-fish UBw : Versus hanni fish don't side anythink. The MD is sufficiant and beg your opponant don't put 2 plague the two games post-SB.
I play a version of fish with proR. so you add 2 anarchy and desside 2 pyrokinesis in this situation.

-White Weenie : +2 anarchy -2 pyrokinesis
No comment

loam/confinement WUG : -4 gempalm -2 pyrokinesis -1 tinkerer -1 sharpshooter +4 CoTV +2 anarchy +2 REB
Normally you loose the first game, but after side you have two solutions for win :
-Kill before the confinement
-lock the confinement with a calice with 2 counter. He can't play life from the loam but can have skwee. So you wait anarchy.
REB can counter an intuition and help for counter a counter in anarchy/CoTV.

RG taiga/zoo/ravager : -2 Sieg-gang Commander +2 pyrokinesis

landstill : -2 pyrokinesis -3 gempalm +3 pyrostatic pillar + 2 REB

pikula : -4 gempalm -1 sharp +2 pyrokinesis +3 pyrostatic pillar
The only thread of it is the two plague. So play and kill it fast or play a pillar and kill her creatures with pyrokinesis.

pox -> -4 gempalm -1 sharp +2 pyrokinesis +3 pillar
It is the same situation.

I test in Paris and have good results.

For the actual discussion I respond in my commentary because it is a reccuring ask in goblin. And haven't an ideal solution for double plague. pikula have mana denial and can destroy your white/green-productor land, kill patron of the Akki or second goblin king. My solution (pillar and only pyrokinesis for anti-creature) is not the perfect solution but this advantage is it uselly in other match-up.

[Awesomator]

I understand that you haven't tested the R/G Goblin build and I would strongly reccomend it. I have played goblins also since the beginning. Tin Street is completely superior to tinkerer (look at the rest of the forum if you have to ask why). The color splash is very easy to access and krosan grip is very necessary (at least in our meta). Patron isn't a false good card either, although your opponent could have a swords, it is usually used in response to another spell being played where your opponent would tap out (such as vindicate for deadguy, engineered plague, etc.), also, the swords to plowshares are usually used early on lackeys, warchiefs, piledrivers and cards such as that (in your case, sharpshooter). If played right, Patron is a very strong card and it gives you five outs to smash a plague player (3 grip 2 patron). If you decide to continue running skirk prospector i would suggest still running at least one more land (the newer and more recently successful builds now run 23). Depending on what deck you're playing against having 2 siege gang in hand can be a very good thing (since I dont run prospector + shooter I don't have too many fairly weak or uncastable cards in my hand). I still feel that running the whole prospector + sharpshooter idea is almost always a win more situation and that prospector should not be in the deck. The goal of any deck is to keep your good matchups good, and to try to make your bad matchups at least 50/50, which is why I don't agree with you taking out a siege-gang. Lackey + Siege-Gang is a lot of the reason that goblins can stand up to combo game 1. Games 2 and 3 I have 4 chalice and 3 pillar, but you don't want to start at a huge disadvantage game 1. REB will help in some matches, but will do almost nothing against TES, which a lot of Iggy Pop players are now switching to. Solidarity the goal game 1 is to get vial or lackey out and either race them, or hopefully get rishadan port. Games 2 and 3 are fairly good for you if they dont run BEB. I'm not sure how your meta is, but usually when the GP comes around, players try to hate out the deck to beat (the majority of players predict some random percentages and think that gobbos is the deck they're going to face half of the day).. This means a lot of engineered plagues, chills, random enchantments and artifacts will be all over the place. Krosan grip is 100% necessary in our metagame.

[Eldariel]

As I've been saying for a while now, I find 24 lands to be incredibly powerful, especially in the mirror, but also just overall in general. It adds to your colour consistency, increases the number of keepable hands you've got and makes you more resilient to good decks (ones capable of shutting down your main engines). And yea, I too advocate the green splash if combo keeps not Top 8ing. Black is probably better in a combo-heavy field, but green is probably better in the mirror and against equipment-decks. In any case, I wouldn't play mono-red presently since those 2 are better. Sharpshooter is one card I'd really want to fit (because of the increasing use of Empty the Warrens and its generic utility), but I haven't been able to fit it yet.

[Awesomator]

Sharpshooter is good vs empty the warrens, although game one vs goblins, TES will definitely just tendrils you since you have no disruption whatsoever and the fact that sharpshooter is in use. Also, If a player uses empty the warrens it will likely be on turn one or at latest turn two, you dont get shooter online until turn 4. 24 lands is pretty heavy but definitely acceptable if you have 8 fetches, although I haven't had any mana problems with my 23 land build with 6 fetches. Black would be better in a combo heavy fields, but as you said, there isn't close to enough combo in top 8's or around to believe that it will be played heavily enough to run green black goblins at the GP.

[Eldariel]

Warchief and Lackey can make it possible to make Sharpshooter active much earlier. Also, if TES goes off without knowing what it's up against, might just be that it goes off with ETW. It has those hands too. Against that, Lackey into Warchief-Sharpshooter or something can come in handy, although usually you'll need to Lackey into Matron/Ringleader to dig for it first :/ Still, thanks to Warchief, turn 3 should be pretty doable provided that you have a Lackey (yea, they can try to block it, but it can be hard to manage that while still applying sufficient pressure with just 8 or so tokens). Without Lackey, it gets more difficult. But yea, it's much more useful post-board when you have the disruption to make them likelier to try for EtW-kill with blockers to win the race instead.

[Awesomator]

I play TES kind of a lot, it's my secondary deck, normally if I ETW on turn one it will be on average at least 12 (if ETW is necessary and the right way to go). 12 or more Goblins would be plenty of pressure, and I wouldn't do it if you had just swung with a lackey and put a warchief into play. If I did make the goblins on turn one, lackey couldnt even swing in. Ya definitely on games 2 and 3 they may try to go a little crazy early to avoid chalice and pillar.

[ASSASSIN]

I really test the Patron of the Akki (more than six months). In begin I have a good opinion about it. But after test and test I understand he is bad for same reasons :
-it is a conditionnal card. Yes you can sacrifie a goblin for pay it but you must keep all time mana open. So finally he comes into play after the war, when you can keep 3 manas open.
-when have a double plague in play the opponant must only kill it. And when the second plague comes you can't play the Patron so you must wait for have a vial in 6 or 6 lands. He have all the time for shearch the solution.
-it is only for the double plague and burn

And plague is dangerous only when have two in play. And all the deck why play it in SB is good match-up for gobbo. It is a hypothetic threat but it is not very dangerous. I make one tournament in each two weeks and my last remember of loose versus a double plague is in december. And the player is an infernal lucker (in the first he play hymn to tourach when I make a mulligan in 5 card and a turn one vial so in my turn two I have 0 goblin in play and 0 goblin in hand XD).
chill is not played in my metagame, but BEB/hydroblast is played. And I have REB, vial and lackey against chill. A krosian grip in a chill since I begin play in turn 4.
If I play the splash G is not for that.


The goal of any deck is to keep your good matchups good, and to try to make your bad matchups at least 50/50
For resume we want ameliore all the match-up :p. And it is I want make. I don't want have a respond of a card we kill me all the 150 matchs but I prefer solution I side in each tournament.

For TSH I read it is inferior than tinkerer. Because you can't destroy an artifact if you are a warchief in play, or if you play it with vial.

I'm surprise all the post are dense, without espace and airy. It is really hard read you. It is an american usage ?

[Awesomator]

I'm not sure what some of your sentences are saying, but the poor synergy between tin street hooligan and warchief is very rarely a problem. Plague is extremely dangerous if your opponent has a lot of other forms of removal, such as swords, infest, damnation, lightning bolt, vindicate, and so on. The idea of patron is to hold back a little and use it at the end of turn step to keep it away from cards such as vindicate and damnation. A lot of deadguy builds arent even running swords to plowshares currently, nevermind the fact that if they have it, it will be used against lackey or warchief. It is a lot less conditional than players think, sending in some damage early on and then using patron to squeeze extra points of damage in sets them in dangerous territory if they are even still alive. You don't have to hold patron back until it is going to swing for lethal damage, it is a 7/5 beatstick who runs around plague, if it were only against plague, it wouldn't be in my sideboard, the same goes for krosan grip. The deck should be prepared for anything, grip and tin street help that a lot. Tin Street is better than tinkerer against the mirror, better against decks with removal or blockers. Tin Street does what you need it to, and can't be stopped by anything Tinkerer couldnt, with the exception of warchief. Tin street is also a 2/1 beatstick, and doesn't crowd up your 1cc slots too much since you are running chalice and will set it on 1 often.

[Eldariel]

Basically, Tin Street is better than Tinkerer because Tinkerer can't kill active Jitte (the counters will just kill Tinkerer before it can tap to destroy anything, and Warchiefs are always dead already so you'll never have the chance to use the Haste), needs Vial at 2 (or Warbeef+lots of mana) to kill an active SoFI, can be Needled, can die before killing Vial in the mirror and can be Cursed Scrolled before it gets to untap. Also, power of 2 makes Tin Street a lot more respectable body a lot more often.

As you can see from my examples, all the artifacts you really need to kill have already slain your Warchief by the time Tinkerer generally gets there. This also means that Tin Street has almost no drawback since Warchief tends to die (or you can *gasp* choose not to cast it before Tin Street) to whatever you want to remove and when it doesn't, you can usually afford to Gempalm your own Warchief to remove something like Ensnaring Bridge you need to kill before winning (since it tends to be the only obstacle in your way).

[aTn]

SBing in the mirror: When playing Folinus' TML02 decklist (RW), I side-out 4 Piledriver for 3 Disenchant (getting rid of Needle gives you a good advantage) and 1 Pyrokinesis (3 maindeck).

I was wondering what was your SBing strategy against Deadguy and Angel Stompy. Thanks in advance for your replies.

[Awesomator]

My Sideboard is as follows:
3x Krosan Grip
4x Chalice
3x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Pyrokinesis
2x Patron of the Akki (optional, I prefer it)

I Top 8'd TMLO2 day 2. I played against Folinus' also. My report against him is somewhere up there in the forums. My maindeck consists of no pyrokinesis, although it wasn a very good (and correct) meta strategy for the TMLO2. Against gobs, I board out 3 piledriver and board in 3 pyrokinesis. Playing the green build gives me an edge over other builds because of the two maindeck tin street, although Folinus did get the one kinesis against me (lucky I had the aether vials).

VS Deadguy I board in 3x pyrostatic pillar, 3x pyrokinesis, 3x krosan grip, 2x patron of the akki. I board out 2 SGC, 3x gempalm, 2x tin street, 3x driver, 1x fanatic, Something and somewhere along thos lines. Game one is very good against deadguy. Games two and 3, deadguy usually boards in extra creature kill along with 4 plague. I dont like driver in the game 2 and 3 matchups, but i will still leave in at least one of every goblin in case they're needed. You will have very little creatures on the board most likely. If I have Patron, my strategy is to usually try to take advantage of the sorcery speed removal they have such as vindicate and plague, and drop a lethal or near lethal beater in response. I have 5 outs vs plague with grip and patron.

Angel Stompy is a fairly easy matchup as long as you keep the equipment off the table, so i do my best to board any way to stop it. If I'm on the play, in 3 Grip and 3 pyrokinesis depending on the build and what i see, out something along the lines of 3 piledriver 3 incinerator. I would do my best to try to hit with lackey also, a lot of builds are currently running isamaru, that's why I would take kinesis over gempalm if i get a lackey in my draw. On the draw I would board out 4 lackey for the 3 grip and 1 pyrokinesis.

[Jak]

Okay I have not tested this at all, but from reading the thread of underated decks, it sounds like Counterslivers could show up. I have tested it and it is about a 50/50 MU for me, so would Engineered Explosives be a good SB card? Set it at 2 and kill off there whole army. Just a thought. Kills confidant, shade, wretched anurid, werebear, jitte, scroll, etc... It could also get a ton of stuff at one. Thoughts?

[Sims]

I don't play this game anymore, but this seems counter intuitive. You're effectively doing their job by killing your guys + spending mana so you can do what, kill a Jitte? Isn't that what Tin Street is for? I'm sure there are better options for Counterslivers than EE.

[Jak]

Probably, but that is also totally wiping away there board. I was just saying the card is extremely powerful against them and all that you would be losing is a piledriver. Then it also comes and helps against other 2cc crap we don't like. The most you would ever lose would be one piledriver because if you did have more, you would be in a good position already. Just a thought.

[Awesomator]

It's not bad against TES either. Meathooks (counter slivers) has been a coin flip for me too, however, I was talking to players who actually play meathooks competitively and they say gobs is a 70/30 in their favor. The only way that i have lost to meathooks is when I can't disrupt their lands and they get crystalline sliver out. I don't think you'll see enough decks where EE is actually good enough to justify it in a sideboard. Even if you end up against slivers, the match is definitely winnable. If Meathooks is in your meta a lot as well as some combo, I would run Red Elemantal Blast and hope to counter the crystalline.

[Volt]

Going 2-2 or 3-3 (or whatever) against random scrubs playing MeatHooks on MWS should be taken with a grain of salt. One thing about slivers is that they attract a lot of Timmys. And they usually want to make stupid changes to the deck, like putting in Aether Vials, Standstill, Gemhide Sliver, Quick Sliver, Essence Sliver, or whatever goofball cards they just "know" should be in there. Properly built and piloted, MeatHooks does in fact beat Goblins about 2-1. Btw, while getting down an early Crystalline almost guarantees victory, it isn't strictly necessary to win. Sometimes you just go plated, sinew, sinew, muscle, winged, win. The games that Goblins wins tend to be the games where they resolve multiple early AEther Vials, combined with heavy mana disruption, particularly if the MH player kept a land-light hand. In other words, the types of games that Goblins always wins, regardless of what the opponent is playing.

If you're actually concerned about the matchup, and I'm not sure you should be at this point, I would sideboard Anarchy. That's probably the single most devastating spell you can play against us, if you can get it to resolve.

[Awesomator]

I have never and will never consider MWS playtesting. I test with good players and that's it. Meathooks is at best a 3-2 favorite over goblins. Granted the players I play with don't normally play meathooks but do play other gro style variants.

[Hanni]

Has anyone thought of, considered, or tried a blue splash?

R/u Vial Goblins

Lands (23)
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
4 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Creatures (30)
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Goblin Tinkerer
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Spells (7)
3 Stifle
4 Aether Vial

It seems like Stifle would be amazing in Goblins. In the mirror, it can prevent the opponent from gaining card advantage via Matron/Ringleader, stop Hooligans from hitting your Vial, etc. It compliments the LD strategy well and it seems like the turn or so it buys you vs Solidarity would make that matchup much better. It also seems like it could strengthen the IGGy/TES matchup a great deal too (especially with Chalice in the SB).

I threw this list together the other day and played a few games with it and I liked it. What do you guys think?

[Awesomator]

Blue was tried earlier in the forums for fire/ice, but I don't think anyone has tried stifle yet. R/G is better vs a random field. In a field full of combo it would be considerable, but most of the time gobs taps out and cant cast the spell early without having to hold back and have no clock if you didnt open with vial. The mirror would still have the edge because the two tin street are tutorable, making your vial very likely to be destroyed. If the tin street is stifled, they still have a 2/1 beater and will most likely be able to tutor for the other. Blue may have other cool things for the board though too. Green is probably still the best splash color, but for the hell of it, and since the goblins page has been really slow, we should at least give our ideas and comments on it.

[Jak]

I like it, but then you lose the whole reason you are splashing for white or green and that is artifact and enchanment removal. Plus the dissynergy with chalice and stifle is bad if you need to dropp chalice at one. But you would probably want to drop it at 0 more. I want to test it.

[Hanni]

The mirror would still have the edge because the two tin street are tutorable

Well... while Hooligan is probably much better than Tinkerer, I do have 2 Tinkerer in my maindeck list.


but then you lose the whole reason you are splashing for white or green and that is artifact and enchanment removal

I read somewhere, and I believe it was Machinus that said it, but the best protection against anti-Goblins hate (like Engineered Plague and such) is the mana denial that the deck uses. The opponent cannot cast Engineered Plague if you don't let them have 3 lands or a black source to cast it. The Stifle's compliment that LD plan by hitting fetchlands. What enchantments are you guys worried about? As far as artifacts go, I'm pretty sure red itself can deal with those.


but most of the time gobs taps out and cant cast the spell early without having to hold back

While I'll agree to an extent with this, there are still the times where you cannot do anything with early mana sources either because you have no 2cc guys in hand or you have a Vial out, etc... which in most cases is when you'd use Rishadan Port with the excess land. Goblins doesn't always necessarily tap completely out... and against something like Combo where you'd want to over-extend, the 1 mana investment in Stifle is usually going to be worth it I would think.

Again, I haven't done much testing with this list at all. The idea came to me the other day and I decided to throw a list together with Stifle and see how it worked. This list has been fine for me so far and I was curious to know if anyone else had thought if it and if it was worth giving a try.

[Michael Keller]

The opponent cannot cast Engineered Plague if you don't let them have 3 lands or a black source to cast it. The Stifle's compliment that LD plan by hitting fetchlands. What enchantments are you guys worried about? As far as artifacts go, I'm pretty sure red itself can deal with those...

One thing black is notorious for is acceleration. Getting to three mana with a Ritual shouldn't be a problem. Playing blue for Stifle doesn't seem applicable to the overall strategy of Goblins because your goal is to kill them as fast as possible. Artifact removal is key, because if Jitte goes active, I don't have to tell you what will happen. And a Swords of Fire/Ice? Ouch. This is all assuming someone is playing against you with an enchantment worth worrying about: Engineered Plague (because it nullifies half the deck?) Stifle is a great card - don't get me wrong - but for as easy combo thinks it has against you...it isn't that easy.

Don't concern yourself with stall tactics/situational mana denial. Kill them as fast as possible - that's how you win. Rishadon Port works just as good denying an opponent open mana sources and provieds you mana as well.

Stick with R/g artifact/enchantment removal. It's a safe bet for what's out there.

[Gekoratel]

I play Goblins with 3x MD Pyro and was wondering what you guys think of the following sideboard. I'm switching from Rw Goblins to Rg Goblins due to its edge in the mirror match and that I'm expecting a lot of decks with troublesome equipment at the GP. For reference my Rg list has 1x MD Tin-Street.

Sample SB
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tranquil Domain //looking for something for this slot
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Tin-Street Hooligan

[Awesomator]

[QUOTE=Hanni;121504]Well... while Hooligan is probably much better than Tinkerer, I do have 2 Tinkerer in my maindeck list.

Odds are, in the mirror, tinkerer wont get a chance to be used unless it's hasted, which I doubt since warchief never stays out long. Although that means we have to waste removal on it, your deck doesn't have that option against R/G goblins.

Gekoratel- Your edge in the mirror with 3 MD kinesis and tin street should be enough to actually remove the other pyrokinesis from your board. If you really like pyrokinesis MD I would suggest cutting to 2 and boarding one. You will still have a huge edge in the mirror, and your ringleaders will be a little less crowded with non goblin cards. I personally like 2 MD ton street, and if I had room, I would MD a 3rd. Tranquil domain isn't necessary imo, 5 ways to remove enchantments is overkill IMO. Vs deadguy and other black aggro decks you're going to find that when you board in 3 grip and 2 tranquil domain, you're losing some of your aggression and may end up losing the game because of it. 1 Plague is fine since you can rebuild off of it, I personally like patron of the akki for this reason, so I can have an answer to plague or double plague and still be able to stay aggressive. Tranquil domain only helps more if your opponent is running survival, moat, humility, or an enchantment based deck. Personally I'm not a fan of tranquil domain, but it isn't a bad slot either.

[Hanni]

Odds are, in the mirror, tinkerer wont get a chance to be used unless it's hasted, which I doubt since warchief never stays out long. Although that means we have to waste removal on it, your deck doesn't have that option against R/G goblins.


Again, I understand that Hooligan is probably a bit better in the mirror than Tinkerer is.

However, I'm unsure what you mean by "your deck doesn't have that option." I run removal too...? I'm a bit unsure what you meant by that. In any case, Stifle has the benefit of stopping opposing Incinerators too. Stifle is insanely versatile in the Goblins mirror. I run Stifle in most of my decks than run Blue and always find it to be one of my strongest cards vs Goblins. I don't see why it would have any less of an effect in a Goblins deck itself. If the argument is simply that Tin Street Hooligan is a million times better than Goblin Tinkerer + Stifle, I think that would need a bit of testing first to prove otherwise.

The main issue is that blue doesn't offer any enchantment hate (since there are tons of artifact hate cards in the color red itself). What enchantments are problematic that see lots of play? Engineered Plague? While I suppose B/r and B/w Sui variants could power out a turn 1 Plague off of a Dark Ritual, most of the time I don't see that happening. Instead, Stifle on fetchlands, Wasteland if they do for some reason drop a Badlands/Scrubland, and Port on their basic Swamps will often buy more than enough time of keeping them off 2B in order to secure a win.

However, I can see Engineered Plague being relevant hate in other decks as well. 4c Landstill, G/R/b Survival, UWb Fish, among others. It seems like the Stifle fetchland plan would still be strong against most of these decks to keep them off of relevant colored mana/hate. I've played against Goblins many times with several different decks and always find that their best overall anti-hate plan is simply screwing over my manabase.

This is what I was referring to before, I found the quote of what Machinus had said about mana disruption in an old post on TMD:


Quote from: Machinus

Quote from: AnwarA101
I find it interesting that Machinus' first place list had no answer to Engineered Plague other than to just beat the decks playing it. I'm not sure there are any decks that are seeing much play that actually play Engineered Plague. Deadguy Ale is like the only one and it hasn't exactly been doing well in the current metagame.


Quote from: quicksilver
He had a great answer to engineered plague against me, double waste, double port, removal for every creature. He never let me get to 3 mana and I died with 3 plagues in hand. That's a pretty good answer if you ask me.
This is a worthwhile discussion topic. I worked on this problem for some time before I decided that the deck was so terrible at answering hate that it actually made it much worse when it was trying to do so.

The game states that shut down the deck are rare. Double Plague, Humility, etc. Mana disruption is a huge strength of the deck when fighting hate like this. (I cut wasteland on a bad metagame call and that fucked up my performance, but cutting port might be the worst suggestion I have ever read for this deck.) My deck also has the ability to answer any number of artifacts, so I had a lot of confidence in the deck's disruption.

I decided that I was willing to risk encounting the low frequency of this hate, rely on the disruption and speed of the deck, and hope that I could play through randomness. It's just a result of a certain kind of tournament strategy that many good players that I know of have. There is a well-known solidarity player on this website with a quotation related to ths school of thought in his signature.

Farragut won that battle, by the way.

[Awesomator]

I wrote earlier that YOU MAYhave the edge because stifle is a powerful card in the mirror. However, the reason that you don't have the option is that the mirror match is full of removal, especially after pyrokinesis comes in. Tin Street's ability is a come into play effect and removal won't do anything to prevent the loss of vial. Stifle however, (not that i necessarily agree that it belongs in the deck though it may) can give you your edge back, depending on what cards you lose for it.

You may be right about not letting them be able to cast plague. However, eventually they will draw plague + rit, or maybe you only have 1 port and they have 4 swamps in play, either way, you have to have a solution for it. The fact is, although there aren't many tier decks out there that play plague, you're going to run into it a lot more than you think when GP comes around. Many players play weak decks with MD solutions and SB solutions to try to completely hate out goblins. Don't forget that krosan grip has made a ridiculous improvement on the deck.

[Bane of the Living]

As far as Tinkerer vs Tin dont forget not only are you waiting to untap but he needs the additional investment of R to blow something up. While one more mana doesnt seem like a big deal, if thats your turn three you arent casting Warchief anymore.

Getting Taigas hit by Wastelands is usually ok because you try not to fetch or play them until you have Grip or Tin ready. If your playing with Stifle you need to fetch the Volcanic and sit with it open w/ stifle in hand. If your opponent proceeds to Wasteland your Volcanic, what are you gonna do, use the Stifle up on the Wasteland?

[Hanni]

As far as Tinkerer vs Tin dont forget not only are you waiting to untap but he needs the additional investment of R to blow something up. While one more mana doesnt seem like a big deal, if thats your turn three you arent casting Warchief anymore

I'm sure the fact that Hooligan needs a green source to be activated balances out the fact that you need to pay a red for Tinkerer in certain situations. I again, I'm not disagreeing that Hooligan is better than Tinkerer in the mirror. I'm simply stating that Hooligan isn't that much better.


If your opponent proceeds to Wasteland your Volcanic, what are you gonna do, use the Stifle up on the Wasteland?

I sure would. It puts me up a land drop and my opponent down a land drop. I'm not completely positive, but isn't controlling more lands an extremely strong position in the mirror?

[Tacosnape]

It's worth noting that Blue also offers Echoing Truth, which will either bounce a shutdown enchantment like Moat/Humility/Confinement/whatever long enough to swing through, bounce a Jitte for tempo or a chance to Tinkerer the thing, or bounce a Ringleader for more card advantage. No help on Plague, though.

I will say this. I don't think relying on mana disruption or relying on decks not to play it is an acceptable solution to Engineered Plague. Two of the most common decks packing it are Red Death and Survival, and those most definitely see play. Survival can drop Birds and Bears, sit on Fetchlands, and play basics until the time comes to drop the black. Red Death can go Ritual, Plague, or drop basic lands while taking a hit or two. Maybe it's a different story when Stifling the fetchland is an option, but in that case you're hoping they wait to crack it until after you dropped Lackey or Vial, which is risky.

Goblins needs a way to handle Plague. It doesn't have to be necessarily as ridiculously committed as what I run (Ray of Revelation if I'm RGW, Tranquil Domain if I'm RG, Scour or Leave No Trace if I'm RW. I see a LOT of Plague.) but you need something. Even if it's a lesser option like King or Patron.

[Bane of the Living]

I'm simply stating that Hooligan isn't that much better.

Yes he is.



I sure would. It puts me up a land drop and my opponent down a land drop. I'm not completely positive, but isn't controlling more lands an extremely strong position in the mirror??

Thats a fine point but mine is that your keeping that red/blue mana open just to wait for a chance to Stifle.. You'll be short changing yourself a mana to cast very key spells to stay aggro. Your aggro control demeanor shows through your deck building hanni, which is just fine. But I think taking away too much aggro, especially that one mana, will switch over the role too much. Id me more than glad to hear your results with the Stifles though.

[Awesomator]

E Truth does help vs plague on a smaller scale though. Bouncing multiple plagues sets you up for a kill swing if you can actually pull it off and makes Patron slightly better. Truth also helps against White based decks by bouncing knight once they finally get the jitte on it. Green is still the better choice so far, but we should think of more interesting ideas.

[dahcmai]

I use Aura Fracture for Plagues.

For those who don't remember it.

2W Enchantment - Sacrifice a land: destroy target enchantment.

It's reusable and constitutes as many disenchants as you have land. Comes down about the same time as a non-ritualed Plague also.

[Awesomator]

wow cool gob card. Only flaw with it, is that LD will be a pain for you if you dont have vial. Deadguy can vindicate it before dropping plague too. No one has mentioned the card though yet.. pretty cool.

[sammiel]

if you are gonna use something other than disenchant, I like leave no trace. It's brutal against multiple prisons, multiple plagues, etc.

[Eldariel]

I like Serenity. It kills Vials, true, but it also rapes a dozen artifact.decs and enchantress (provided that they don't have a disenchant-effect handy) in addition to killing multiple plagues/humility/rift/moat/etc. Yea, it has a drawback of being vulnerable to disenchants, but against you, they usually target vials anyways if they're present in the first place.

[Hanni]

Just as a quick question. Why exactly is Krosan Grip viewed so much more strongly than Disenchant in the deck. Split Second seems relevant against decks with either countermagic or possibly active Jitte counters.

It seems that the main goal for Krosan Grip is to deal with Engineered Plague. The only decks packing countermagic and Engineered Plague is UWb Fish, which isn't a metagame concern. Survival and B/r Sui don't have any more responses to a Disenchant targeting Plague than Krosan Grip does. The same applies to decks packing Humility, Moat, etc etc.

I realize the main reason the green is splashed is for Tin Street. Is Tin Street really worth splashing a color that gives you no sideboard options vs what I would think are problematic matchups? I realize it's being splashed to deal with hate. I don't think white is any less effective at dealing with hate though. However, white seems like it would give you sideboard options vs potentially problematic matchups.

What problematic matchups? Well, it seems like combo is a hard matchup for you guys. Orim's Chant is nasty against IGGy/TES and it buys you a full turn against Solidarity. I think it is much stronger than Pyrostatic Pillar, since Pillar requires you to invest 2 mana early and it can be bounced. Aside from combo, what matchups pose a threat to Goblins? Rather, what matchups pose a threat to Goblins that green can answer and white can't?

I also am not suggesting R/w Goblins with StP main. StP may be a strong sideboard option but I don't think it's necessary maindeck. Obviously, you want some number of Tinkerer's main. Chalice in the board, Orim's Chant in the board, Disenchant/Leave no Trace/Serenity in the board, etc etc.

However, I'm sure I'm not changing anyones mind about the green splash whatsoever. I guess Hooligan is just that damn busted.

[Awesomator]

The only white card even remotely good enough to switch over for is Armageddon. Chant makes it so you have to leave mana open every turn. Grip is much better than disenchant against: Hannifish (jitte and counter magic), Fairy Stompy, survival of the fittest, death and taxes (vial, sensei's top, and some builds run jitte), can make a big impact on any of those games. I don't think swords is good even in the sideboard. Aggro matchups are usually very good, and silver knight is only a problem if they can keep their equipment on it.

[Reagens]

This is the list I used in Utrecht and with which I won the tournament:

4 mountains
2 taiga
1 badlands
4 r/g fetch
3 r/b fetch
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port

4 goblin lackey
4 mogg fanatic
4 aether vial
4 goblin piledriver
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin matron
4 goblin ringleader
1 goblin king
1 goblin tinkerer
2 goblin sharpshooter
2 siege-gang commander
4 gempalm incinerator


Sideboard:

4 Chalice of the void
2 Krosan grip
2 tranquil domain
3 engineered explosives
1 goblin sharpshooter
3 extirpate


Altough I don't consider this the ultimate list I used this list because I tought it would be best in the dutch metagame. The biggest weakness I think is post sideboard goblins because I can only board an extra sharpshooter.
I also tried to make it as difficult as possible to shut down my deck with meddling mages which explains the split between tranquil domain and grip. Explosives are in the deck to provide a solution for pro red creatures.
Extirpate is an answer to terrageddon and combo.
I have had no difficulty finding my colored lands but for 1 single game.

[Gekoratel]

I havent seen anyone talk about sideboarding strategies so I thought I would post my own and see how people disagreed so I could learn how to sideboard better.
Some notes on my list
* I run 3x MD Pyrokinesis
* I run 3 Mogg Fanatics, and 3 Gempalms
* I run 1 MD Sharpshooter
Othat than that everything is pretty standard Rg Goblin fare.

Mirror:
-2 Goblin Piledriver
+2 Tin Street Hooligan

Thresh
-3 Mogg Fanatic -3 Pyrokinesis -1 Goblin Piledriver
+4 Chalice of the Void +2 Tormod's Crypt +1 Tin Street

Non Iggy Combo //Pryo may want to stay in against TES
-3 Gemplam -3 Pyrokinesis -1 Goblin Sharpshooter -1 Mogg Fanatic
+4 Pyro Pillar +4 Chalice of the Void

Angel Stompy variants/Zoo/Other beatdown decks //Chalice comes in against beatdown decks with a high concentration of 1cc and 2cc spells
-2 Piledriver
+2 Tin Street

Survival
-3 Piledriver
+3 Krosan Grip

Random B/X Control
-1 Goblin Sharpshooter -2 Mogg Fanatic
+3 Krosan Grip

[Shriekmaw]

I believe the sideboard discussion is the only relevant one, b/c most of the main deck with goblins is pretty much the same give or take a few cards. I would like to ask the form a few questions I do have.

Is the R/G Goblins build the accepted best Goblins deck? Is it worth considering the white splash anymore at this point? How important is it to play Rishadan Port these days? I've cut this card to a 2 of in my mana base to run more red sources as its usually more important to consistently have red mana then it is to have port in your opening hand.

Tell me what you think?

[Gekoratel]

When I first started playing Goblins I didn't run Rishadan Ports and was under the mindset that chaining Matrons and Ringleaders was better than the ability to tap lands. After playing Goblins more in testing and tournament settings I've seen just how amazing Rishadan Port is and I could now never imagine running a list without 4. Some games when you get Vial and Port going you can just play Stax against people Wastelanding and Porting all over the place while some generic men lay the beats.

Also if your running the commonly accepted 23 lands I don't think that Ports should get in the way of your ability to hit RR very often. You could always cut a few fetch lands so that your not thinning the deck and will draw more lands(very small effect).

As for Rg vs. Rw it comes down to what kind of metagame you are expecting but for what I've seen out of Legacy as a whole I think that Rg is the way to go. The only card thats awesome from Rw goblins is Armageddon so if your in a meta full of Rifter, Mono-White Control, and other mana hungry control decks Geddon is a solid choice. It seems like those decks aren't very popular right now so killing Jitte, SoFI, Vial, and other random artifacts with Tin Street seems better. I ran Rw for a long time but for the GP and other tournaments I'm gonna be running Rg.

[Shriekmaw]

Some games when you get Vial and Port going you can just play Stax against people Wastelanding and Porting all over the place while some generic men lay the beats.




I think this is especially true. I had games when I was running 4 ports where I didn't have an explosive start, but my hand was very good to play a control role. Thats the great thing about this deck, it can come out of the gates very fast and win or it can play a control role and win the long game. I've played with this deck quite a bit, so I'm just trying to tweak the deck at this point.

The one thing that I haven't done with goblins is play it in big events, even though I am very good with the deck. Last event I played with it was at GP: Philly when I went 5-3 and missed day 2 by one round going in with no byes. The more I play with this deck in bigger events the more impressed I will become with the decks power and consistency.

[Awesomator]

The deck needs 4 ports, 4 incinerators, and 4 fanatics. 23 Land is best. 3 MD pyrokinesis isn't very good unless your meta is almost all aggro, that won't be the case at GP Columbus.

[Eldariel]

I think 24 lands is going to win you more mirrors than the 4th Gempalm, so I play it thusly. Just remember, people, mirror comes down to mana advantage almost always, so the player with more lands is going to win. Same applies to MUs where your opponent can shut down Lackeys and Vials; all the card advantage in the world can't save you if you can't cast 'em. I still don't seem to run out of cards often with 24 lands and 3 Gempalms, so I'm rather satisfied, especially since I still maintain the critical 4 Fanatics to answer Lackey with..

[Gekoratel]

The deck needs 4 ports, 4 incinerators, and 4 fanatics. 23 Land is best. 3 MD pyrokinesis isn't very good unless your meta is almost all aggro, that won't be the case at GP Columbus.

I don't see how the 4th Incinerator or 4th Fanatic are mandatory, there are very few matchups where Fanatic truly shines and he's so much worse than all of your other 1 drops that a lot of the time he just sits in your hand until you've already played all of your better goblins. I think the 4th Gempalm is just a matter of preference, it is a very strong card and I would certainly run it over jank like Skirk Prospector, Kiki-Jiki, Goblin Pyromancer etc. It's not that necessary though if you are running MD Pyrokinesis.

I think you are selling Pyrokinesis pretty short even if you arent expecting the GP to be heavily Aggro which I'm pretty sure it will be. In nearly every matchup save Combo you can find a use for Pyrokinesis. At the GP I'm expecting roughly:
25% Goblins
20% Extended Ports(Affinity, BDW etc.)
20% Jank
15% Thresh
10% Combo
10% Control (Landstill, Tog, Wx)

So personally I think MD Pyro is going to be very strong at the GP and recommend it to Goblin players but I'll be happy if people don't run it because then the mirror will be easier for me. Also running Pryo MD frees up 3-4 slots in the sideboard so your post-board matchups improve against a wider variety of the field.

Also does anyone have any comments on the sbing I laid out a few posts ago.

[Tacosnape]

I use Aura Fracture for Plagues.

For those who don't remember it.

2W Enchantment - Sacrifice a land: destroy target enchantment.


...Zomg Frog. That's pretty good. I'mma go rustle me up some of them.

[Shriekmaw]

This is my current sideboard plan for many of the popular decks that players have been playing in my area. I'm currently running 22 lands with 4 mogg fanatics and 1 goblin tinkerer main deck. Everything else is pretty normal goblin build with 1 sharpshooter.

First, here is the current sideboard that I've been using.


1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin King
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Disenchant
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Chalice of the Void


Threshold (white/red splash)

+1 Goblin King (Red Gro)
+1 Goblin Tinkerer
+2 Tormod's Cypt
+4 Chalice of the Void
-3 Pyrokinesis
-4 Mogg Fanatic
-1 Goblin Piledriver

Iggy Pop/TES/Solidarity

+4 Pyrostatic Pillar
+4 Chalice of the Void
-3 Gemplam
-3 Pyrokinesis
-2 Mogg Fanatic


Survival

+3 Disenchant
+1 Goblin King
-1 Goblin Tinkerer
-1 Mogg Fanatic
-2 Goblin Piledriver

Vial Affinity

+1 Goblin King
+1 Goblin Tinkerer
-1 Mogg Fanatic
-1 Goblin Piledriver

Mirror

+1 Goblin Tinkere
-1 Mogg Fanatic

Those are the major matchups that I currently worry about. When I get some more experience playing other matchups that seem relevant I will post those. Let me know what you think about my sideboard strategies.

[Gekoratel]

Iggy Pop/TES/Solidarity

+4 Pyrostatic Pillar
+4 Chalice of the Void
-3 Gemplam
-3 Pyrokinesis
-2 Mogg Fanatic
Against Iggy Pop and Solidarity Sharpshooter is worse than Mogg Fanatic but you keep him in against TES to have an out to slow EtW.


Survival

+3 Disenchant
+1 Goblin King
-1 Goblin Tinkerer
-1 Mogg Fanatic
-2 Goblin Piledriver
Mogg Fanatic is quite good in this match because Survival builds are very reliant on Birds and Elves for mana, I suppose Fanatic goes down in value against builds with Vial but I'm not sure what the norm is for Survival. I'd cut the 3rd Driver before Fanatic.


Vial Affinity

+1 Goblin King
+1 Goblin Tinkerer
-1 Mogg Fanatic
-1 Goblin Piledriver
Piledriver is awful in this matchup because you need to try and assume the control role because Affinity is a much better beatdown deck than Goblins. This matchup is very tough against Affinity players that have a clue. You also want to board in Disenchant because its better than Piledriver.

For the mirror take out Piledriver over Fanatic because its better to have more answers to Lackey and other goblins down the line than a terrible 1/2 creature.

As for your sideboard in general if the only white card in your sideboard is Disenchant then you should be running the green splash because Tin Street Hooligan is much better than Tinkerer. If your running the white splash over green due to card availability then thats fine.

[Shriekmaw]

As for your sideboard in general if the only white card in your sideboard is Disenchant then you should be running the green splash because Tin Street Hooligan is much better than Tinkerer. If your running the white splash over green due to card availability then thats fine.


I totally agree with the green splash and as soon as I get some Taigas, I would definitely run green. Thats probably my only reason for running white, I have plateaus and not taigas.

I wasn't really thinking about putting in the disenchant or krosan grip against Affinity. It probably was late at night and I wasn't thinking straight. Your definitely right though, they would go in.

I'm just curious, what is your opinion of the Goblins vs Affinity matchup in Legacy?

[Tacosnape]

I'm just curious, what is your opinion of the Goblins vs Affinity matchup in Legacy?

Goblins is favored regardless of the Splash. An early Pyrokinesis and Wasteland is usually enough that they can't recover from it mana-wise.

[Eldariel]

Goblins is favored regardless of the Splash. An early Pyrokinesis and Wasteland is usually enough that they can't recover from it mana-wise.

Unless they have the critical turn 1 Darksteel Citadel. That's an absolutely pivotal play against Goblins. Still, in my experience with Rg Goblins w/ 3 MD Tin Street Hooligans, I've been nothing but smashing Affinity. Tutorable removal, even if it requires me to kill my Warchiefs occasionally (this is the one MU where that happens), is just so good. Also the fact that it enables me to blow up their Needles naming Vial is awesome, Vial in Goblins>>>>Vial in Affinity thanks to the whole 'card advantage' thingy the deck has going on. Of course Affinity is going to win a bunch of games where it can be aggressive enough and Goblins don't have a fast-enough start to counter, but those are definitely a minority.

[Gekoratel]

I've had different experiences playing Goblins vs. Affinity, in tournament settings I have had a pretty good record against Affinity because most people that play the deck are terrible. In testing against my friend who actually knows how to play the deck the numbers have been much worse. The key cards in the Goblins vs. Affinity matchup are Tin Street Hooligan, Pyrokinesis, and Goblin Sharpshooter.

If you are running 3 Tin Street's main then I could see having a favorable matchup but I am only running 1 so its not that great for me. Of course if your running 3 Tin Street's I assuming you don't have Pryo but Tin Street is slightly better in that matchup.

The average game in this matchup is that Affinity beats down in the early game until the Goblin player can finally stablize and try to slowly eat away at Affinities board. In this position it is where Goblin Sharpshooter truly shines because you can make attacks where a lot of creatures will trade and come up on top. The problem is that even if you do stabilize the board with Goblins Affinity has usually got in enough damage that your dead to a topdecked Fling. This means you can't just sit around until your really in control because you are giving them more turns to draw Fling.

All in all I think unless you are running 3+ Tin Street it is an unfavorable matchup pre-board that only gets worse post-board when they have access to Pyroclasm. I also don't agree with the Wasteland statement because Affinity needs it lands less than you do so I've found early wastelands to be a very weak play unless they are doing nothing on there first turn.

[Shriekmaw]

I've played Affinity in Legacy for quite a while when I'm not playing Goblins or some other deck that I'm testing. In my experience with Affinity, I have never lost to Goblins with it. There are a few reasons why I believe I have never lost. The main reason I believe is that I know how to play each deck very well and know the power behind each of them. I know how good affinity and goblins can be when they come out of the gates very fast.


The main problem with Affinity is when they get Myr Enforcer out, b/c it is very hard timfor a goblins player to deal with. You also have to worry about Ornithopter and cranial plating on the board. I believe game 1 is pretty evenly spilt 50/50, but after board when affinity brings in 4 engineered plagues things become much worse for the Goblins player.

One of my friends Mike (Tenniebopper) have played the affinity matchup 4 or 5 times and has yet to win against it. Every Affinity player that he played against was pretty good with the deck which makes the matchup tough.

I'll briefly go into the experience I had with Goblins when I top 8 at the Toronto GP side event last year. I go a pretty good start in game one with an atog in play (another problem card for goblins) and then just berserked him for 22 trample damage when they were at 19 with one 2 blockers. I got very lucky to win game 1. Game 2 was the more exciting game where we both got off to decent starts, but he spend all his wastelands and ports to try to lock in down in fear of plague. We was successful by not letting me cast it during the whole game as I had one in my hand the whole time. As he was trying to lock me down the keep playing my creatures and free myr enforcers which traded 1 for 1 or more with his goblins. Eventually he ran out of gas and I just beat him to his death with arcbound ravager and a frogmite.

I was very happy to win this match, which I think is favored toward the Affinity player in my opinion. I would give this matchup something like a 55/45 ratio in favor of Affinity.

These players were very good that I played as these were later in the tournament and were playing for a top 8 berth.

[kabal]

I've played Affinity in Legacy for quite a while when I'm not playing Goblins or some other deck that I'm testing.

What does your build look like?

[Shriekmaw]

What does your build look like?

Vial Affinity

4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Great Furnace
4 Tree of Tales
2 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Glimmervoid
4 Aether Vial
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Chromatic Star
4 Ornithopter
3 Cranial Plating
2 Atog
2 Bererk
2 Pithing Needle

SB

2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Sphere of Resistance
3 Krosan Grip
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Engineered Plague


I have gone back and forth with the green splash and the blue splash. I love that blue adds thoughtcast, but gr een gives you berserk and grip in the board which I'm a bigger fan of. This deck is capable of winning on turn 3 which is why I like the aggressiveness of the green splash.

[Kadaj]

Having been on the losing side of testing Affinity with the blue splash versus Rg Goblins (Eldariel's version) I'm pretty confident Beserk Affinity has a better matchup against goblins, just because it's more likely to win very quickly before goblins can establish its advantage. Still, against Rg Goblins with 3 MD Tin-Streets I'd say it's 55-45 to 60-40 in Goblins favor. Affinity can still win these random games where it just comes out of the blocks really fast and runs the goblin player over, but for the most part goblins just stalls and stalls, removing anything relevent and then winning on the back of a vastly superior card advantage engine.

[Shriekmaw]

I just brought this matchup up b/c I play Affinity around these parts. I don't think Affinity is a huge concern not only to Goblins, but the Legacy Metagame for the most part. If players don't bring some form of hate for artifacts I could see Affinity win big tournaments as it is very good and consistent for an aggro deck.

I have 8 slots in my board dedicated to combo b/c thats probably my worse matchup when I'm playing Goblins. I'm not too worried about the other matchups that can come about in a tournament.

Survival has been growing in numbers in my area and that matchup is tough for the most part. Some people tell me that it is 50/50, but I have to disagree with that ratio. I believe its much worse than that.

I'm interested in your experiences and ratio against various Survival builds?

[Gekoratel]

I'm interested in your experiences and ratio against various Survival builds?

I've played against Dave Price's RGSA quite a few times and I'm something like 4-1 against him right now so I don't think it's that bad of a matchup. I've also played against different Survival decks in the past the most recent being my matches against bigbear at TMLO2. At that tournament I played him once in the swiss D1 and in the T8 D2. I won both of these matches but they were very tight going to game 3 both times.

I've found the manabase of the deck to be suspect at times because it is very mana hungry so your Wastelands and Ports will work overtime in this matchup. Also unlike most MU's Mogg Fanatic is really good because he kills Birds and Elves which the deck is also reliant on. I've played against the Vial builds less and I think the matchup against those decks is slightly worse than those without(keep in mind I play 1x MD Tin Street).

[Awesomator]

All variants of survival are good matchups. They run mostly nonbasics and rely on 1 toughness creatures early in the game. Since rofellos needs to have haste, hopefully you can kill off the taiga, since most builds are 3 colored and need other duals out as well all linked to green for roffelos. Krosan Grip is insanely good vs survival.

[Tacosnape]

All variants of survival are good matchups. They run mostly nonbasics and rely on 1 toughness creatures early in the game. Since rofellos needs to have haste, hopefully you can kill off the taiga, since most builds are 3 colored and need other duals out as well all linked to green for roffelos. Krosan Grip is insanely good vs survival.

Listen to this man. He knows what he's talking about.

If you're packing 4 Wasteland, 4 Port, and 4 Mogg Fanatic, you're favored against Survival. You might be 50/50 if Survival wins the die roll. You're a hell of a lot better if you win it. I won a $100 cash tournament with 26+ players in Alabama about a year and a couple months ago running BGWR Survival with four maindeck Engineered Plagues, and I -still- lost a game to goblins where they went Lackey, I went Bird, they went Wasteland, Mogg Fanatic, Swing into SGC.

Attack Survival's manabase. Relentlessly. Survival doesn't do a whole lot for them if you're eating through their ability to produce mana. This matchup is a classic example of why you shouldn't ever run less than 4 Mogg Fanatics.

And if you run a single Sharpshooter? Survival is a chinese buffet for Goblin Sharpshooter.

[MattH]

And if you run a single Sharpshooter? Survival is a chinese buffet for Goblin Sharpshooter.
Nastiest part is that Survival can't even run his own Sharpshooter to tool on you, because of the aforementioned Fanatics.

[Tacosnape]

Nastiest part is that Survival can't even run his own Sharpshooter to tool on you, because of the aforementioned Fanatics.

Are there any Survival builds that even run Goblin Sharpshooter anymore?

[Shriekmaw]

Are there any Survival builds that even run Goblin Sharpshooter anymore?


Once in awhile I will see a survival build that does run a main deck sharpshooter, but for the most part this is a card that doesn't see a lot of play in survival anymore.

After practicing against some survival decks, I can see now why the matchup favors goblins. You have wasteland and port to control their mana base along with fanatic, incinerator, and pyrokensis to control their acceleration and creature threats.

Having an sharpshooter in your deck is really good against them, since you can take down most of their creatures with it. I wasn't that confidant with the matchup because I haven't played it too often with goblins, but now I see why this matchup just isn't that bad.

[Awesomator]

Overall, I don't think sharpshooter should even be in goblins. Generally, sharpshooter is a win more card, and it's incredibly weak to have in your hand. If I had the room to cut I would have gone for a 3rd Tin street. Tin Street is amaaaaazing.

[Awesomator]

As for your sideboard in general if the only white card in your sideboard is Disenchant then you should be running the green splash because Tin Street Hooligan is much better than Tinkerer. If your running the white splash over green due to card availability then thats fine.

Affinity is one of Goblins best matchups if you're playing green. Tin St + Krosan Grip + Pyrokinesis + Gempalm = Good matchup.

[Shriekmaw]

Affinity is one of Goblins best matchups if you're playing green. Tin St + Krosan Grip + Pyrokinesis + Gempalm = Good matchup.



Please, don't get carried away. Affinity is by far not one of Goblins best matchups, even it your splashing green. I would have to say the matchup is very close to 50/50 against R/G Goblins, and if your mono-red or running the white splash than Affinity clearly has the advantage.

Affinity can explode just as quick as Goblins if not faster. Just because you have a few good cards in the deck against Affinity, does not mean its a good matchup. Just a stupid statement based on a few cards.

[Awesomator]

lol look at the two affinity forums. The topic they're talking about is the goblins problem.

[Shriekmaw]

lol look at the two affinity forums. The topic they're talking about is the goblins problem.


Vial Affinity and Chalice Affinity are two completely different decks. They have different strengths and weaknesses. I've played the matchup quite a bit, I think I would know who gets favored.

Vial Affinity is a tough matchup for Goblins. Thats just a fact.

[Awesomator]

I'm sure it is a fact when you play with terrible players. We can test this matchup on MWS and post results on here if you would like.

[Shriekmaw]

I'm sure it is a fact when you play with terrible players. We can test this matchup on MWS and post results on here if you would like.


Right, your calling Tenniebopper a terrible player. I've tested the matchup before with him and he has never been able to beat Affinity. Plus, MWS is a piece of garbage that I don't trust whatsoever.

[Awesomator]

MWS should still let us know how the matchup is.. So you don't want to do it then?

[Shriekmaw]

MWS should still let us know how the matchup is.. So you don't want to do it then?

I don't use Magic Work Station. If I'm going to playtest Legacy its usually done in person with friends/teammates.

The only program I use is Magic Online.

I guess the answer is NO.

[Gekoratel]

Awesomator what is your strategy against Affinity. Since you have such a favorable matchup against the deck you must be doing things different from the rest of us. The first factor is the list your running which is slightly different than mine but I can't see how +2 Tin Street -3 Pyrokinesis can have as much of a swing in the matchup as you seem to think.

The list that I've test against a lot is RBg which has many problem cards for the Goblin player in Atog, Fling, and Berserk. Atog is incredibly hard to beat through and when attacking forces a chump block nearly ever turn. The only way to actually remove him is if he comes down early with few artifacts to back him up. After that you need a very large Gempalm so they Affinity player is forced into the decision of keep Atog or sacrifice board presence.

Thats only the first problem card, Fling and Berserk both serve similar roles and are equally a beating for Goblins. All Affinity needs to do is get in some early beats in the first few turns where they are clearly ahead of Goblins and then finish it off with Fling or Berserk. If the Goblins player is left unmolested then it will have an edge in the lategame due to its superior card advantage but if your not putting Affinity on a clock or killing a lot of their permanents then you'll just die as soon as they topdeck Fling or Berserk.

I have a feeling your testing is skewed not from Affinity players playing bad Goblins players but the other way around. I consider myself a decent Goblins player and I test against a solid Affinity player but I lose much more games than I win. Don't even get me started on the post-board match which gets even worse for Goblins.

[Tacosnape]

I play Red-White, and even when I'm not packing Serenity, I never have much trouble with Affinity either. And I can't imagine my Affinity match is better than Awesomator's, considering he has Tin-Street Hooligan.

Swords to Plowshares stops Atog, and he's the only card I worry about. Ravager's modular triggers are awful against well-timed Mogg Fanatics and Gempalm Incinerators, and an early Pyrokinesis can just eat their manabase for breakfast.

[Meeee]

As an Affinity player I'll have to agree if you play w/r goblins with swords in the board it is probably much rougher for affinity (atog is definitely one of the best creatures in the match), swords is the one card that gives UGw Threshold a fighting chance against Vial Affinity and their core strategy is much weaker against you them Goblins. Excluding swords though I realize fanatics are annoying but there on board so it usually not that hard to play around them, simply throwing a workers modular counter to the creature you plan on enhancing with ravager stops that play from being very effective. As far as pyrokinesis eating affinity's manabase alive I think that depends on what strategy the affinity player is employing. For example pyrokinesis is much more popular sideboarded then maindeck these days and post boarded I take out frogmite for clasm and simply play a semi-defensive game with enforcers and atog and ravager and then clasm the board away and switch to offense, or draw berserk/fling with atog and end the game there.

[Shriekmaw]

As both a Affinity and Goblins player in Legacy I've made the following observations in tournament play.

First, I found that most Affinity players are not that highly skilled in terms of the fundamentals of the game. They don't understand how to play the matchup versus Goblins all that well.

Second, Goblins are usually played by better players that understand the game a lot better. Many consider Goblins as the best deck in Legacy which is another reason why so many good players just pick the deck and put themselves in a great position to win the tournament.

We can go back and forth as who has the advantage in this particular matchup, but I think it really comes down to play skill and the players understanding on how the match should be played.

[Tacosnape]

Good thing Awesomator and I kick ass at magic, then.

I still think, however, that on equal skill levels, Goblins wins this more often than not. With solid knowledge of trigger timing and being able to count your opponent's "actual cost" for their affinity spells, you can make the decisions that will often keep you in control of the match.

I do find it interesting to theorize that R/W Goblins has a better affinity match than R/G Goblins. Even with STP, I seriously didn't think this was the case. And I don't remember my matches with R/G Goblins in detail enough to know, although I do recall dying to Atog a lot more but also winning through early mana denial via TS Hooligan a lot more with the R/G build.

Anyone play against both RW and RG (Or with RW and RG) enough to add more to this?

[Meeee]

You’re probably right, I have not played against r/w with swords and I was just theorizing but hooligan plus wasteland mana denial can be potent especially if you take me off red which is atog, fling and clasm or I get a mana light draw. In testing if I wasn't down on lands then I would make sure to hold red sources until I needed them.

[Bane of the Living]

Well its easy to say why goblins is favored. Swords, Tin-Street/Tinkerer, Gempalm, Ringleader, SGC, and Fanatic. After the sb we see additional Tin-Streets, Pyrokinesis, and maybe Krosan Grip.

Now lets see what are the cards in affinity that even that up?

Atog.. Umm Plating?

Myr Enforcer is slow as balls. In your average non busted games he gets stunted by Fanatics killing Workers, Wasteland, Port, Gemplamed Thopters and Frogs, ect. He comes out roughly turn 4-5. He has no evasion so goblins can block him easily with Matrons and other nonsense.

Ravager has a nice ability vs most aggro decks in modular but goblins rule to roost as far as targeting that shit.

You have roughly 5-10 more creatures in goblins depending on the builds but they can chain into more creatures via matron tutoring, ringleader, and SGC guy advantage. What does affinity have on that?

The only edge you have bringing brown to that table is the meager possiblitly of the combo kill. Rarely you can get the DotV out with vial and 5-7 artifacts on the board with a flyer and Ravager. Rarely you have a DotV and Fling with 8 artifacts ect. It just doesnt happen.

You cant needle vial because you play it. Your only possible sb out is Engineered Plauge which goblins is well equiped to battle. Especially when every land in your deck is a waste target.

I love how people are declining little challenges to play on MWS. The random shuffler is randomly bad for both players just like randomly IRL. Just play the matchups and lose to Awsomator.

[Meeee]

... I thought both Gekoratel and I pointed out what Affinity does to win the match;
Preboard
(Atog = hard to kill) + (Fling or Berserk) = dead goblins player
or
Regular beats(this favors the goblins but not more then 60/40.

Postboard
Preboard plan
or
pyroclasm + some combination of Myr Enforcer, Ravager, Atog and modulized creatures = Goblins player in a tight spot if not dead

I'm not saying the match heavily favors Affinity, but it is just as versatile as Goblins and has access to some very powerful trumps to there strategy. On the other hand most of the serious hate for affinity is not run in goblins.

[Awesomator]

Gekoratel.. my new (and much better list than my man leak open deck) is aimed to deal with Goblin hate which is going to be around a lot at GP.

My list is:
4x B.S. Mire (much better to have more of than foothills)
2x Wooded Foothills
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
5x Mountain
4x Taiga
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Mogg Fanatic
3x Siege-Gang Commander
4x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Tin street Hooligan
4x Aether Vial


Board is:
3x Pyrokinesis
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Krosan Grip

My original board had Patron of the Akki in instead of 1 Grip and 1 Pillar. 4 Grip sounds like a lot, but.. play it, you definitely won't be dissapointed. I am not here to argue about affinity which won't be around enough to worry about. As always, I back my talk with a lot of testing, and would be more than happy to test with anyone on MWS. I know MWS is a little shitty with the random generator, but it will tell us how the matchup is if we play enough games. People test against literally BAD Goblins players. A bad goblins player can be a good player who doesn't have a ton of experience with goblins. I would like to even get a third tin street in, but seems like there's nothing to cut (don't tell me incinerator, fanatic, to cut a land, or to run 61 cards or I will hate you all, but I'll eventually get over it).

[Eldariel]

How about tossing Tranquil Domain in the former-Patron slot? If you really need some heavy duty anti-Plague answers, something like two Domains sounds just right. Then you'd have a total of 5 Disenchant-effects to bring in. Also, has the 4th Krosan Grip been better than the Patron?

[Peter_Rotten]

The new thread can be found here. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5557)