[Deck] Quinn The Eskimo- Aka, The Mighty Quinn

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

ETA: I'm leaving the rest of the post alone, but I'm going to keep the most up-to-date list on the top of the first page.


4 Scrying Sheets
18 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Kor Haven

1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Wrath of God
1 Humility
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Sacred Mesa
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Isochron Scepter
4 Orim's Chant
3 Abeyance
2 Grindstone
2 Painter's Servant

SB:
3 Ray of Distortion
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Karmic Justice
1 Sacred Ground
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Karakas
1 Genju of the Fields
1 Runed Halo


Previous ETA:

18x Snow-Covered Plains
4x Scrying Sheets

2x Grindstone
2x Painter's Servant
3x Eternal Dragon
1x Sacred Mesa

3x Enlightened Tutor
4x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Wrath of God
3x Runed Halo
3x Oblivion Ring
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Moat

4x Orim's Chant
3x Abeyance
2x Isochron Scepter

SB:
3x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
3x Ray of Distortion
2x Sacred Ground
2x Story Circle
1x Sacred Mesa
2x Decree of Justice
1x Rule of Law

Now return you to the original post.

[/ETA]

I actually build a metric fuckton of decks that never see the light of day. I'll proxy them up on MWS, maybe play a few games on MWS, then get bored and scrap them. Any number of things can inspire a deck. Sometimes it's actually cards, or any given one card I feel like playing at the moment. Sometimes the deck is actually top-down; say, for instance, that someone makes an account on the Source with a handle referencing a damnably catchy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPcfQfG5uMM) Bob Dylan song I hadn't even thought about in years. I might get said tune stuck in my head for a week, and decide that I'd like to build a deck with that name. Quinn's an eskimo, so obviously it needs to be a Snow deck.

Usually these decks get scrapped, but every one in a hundred actually turns out to actually be really fucking impressive. This is one of those.

18x Snow-Covered Plains
4x Scrying Sheets

Kill Conditions:
2x Eternal Dragon
2x Decree of Justice
3x Adarkar Valkyrie
1x Sacred Mesa

Creature Kill:
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Condemn
3x Wing Shards
3x Wrath of God

Anti-Combo:
4x Orim's Chant
3x Abeyance

Tutoring/Manipulation:
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Enlightened Tutor

Tutor Targets:
2x Isochron Scepter
1x Powder Keg
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Moat
1x Story Circle


SB:

2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Trinisphere
1x Rule of Law
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Sacred Ground
1x Hannah's Custody
1x Karmic Justice
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Aura of Silence
1x Pithing Needle
1x Humility
1x Thunderstaff
1x Grindstone
1x Mindslaver


Actually writing this out on a decksheet would be such a pain. Anyway;


Snow Engine- 25 Snow cards allow you to use Scrying Sheets blind fairly often EoT just to draw a land, keeping up your mana production, while digging you deeper towards the business cards. With Top out, it goes from decent to amazing, allowing you to rapidly dig through and stack your deck. Top also works with E. Tutor and Eternal Dragon for shuffle effects. Tutor is an important part of this deck, as all the one ofs might've made obvious. You can tutor for early answers to various decks in Seal, Powder Keg, and Isochron Scepter (sticking an Orim's Chant on it to lock them mostly out of the game, an StP just to kill all their creatures, or even an Abeyance to keep them off of random cards while drawing more cards yoursself), or get a late game powerhouse in Sacred Mesa, Story Circle, or Moat. With a different draw engine than Rabid Wombat, there's a lot more room for actual business spells; in addition to plenty of creature removal, you have cards that actually stop non-attacking decks; Terrageddon or Armageddon Stax or anything with Wildfire or Devastating Dreams was a nightmare matchup for Wombat, but with Scepter-Chant lock, you can actually shut them completely out of the game before they even get their land-wipes online; Scepter-Chant's good against pretty much everything, actually.

The sideboard is full of one ofs, although lots of them serve dual functions. Karmic Justice can supplement either Sacred Ground against the land-wipe strategies, or Hannah's Custody against Naturalizes; Trinisphere, Rule of Law, and Chalice are all pretty good against combo, and Thunderstaff is, too, actually (in addition to comboing with DoJ). Humility and Thunderstaff can lock out aggro completely, and Humility's good against creature-based combo and most aggro. Grindstone and Mindslaver are bombs in the tedious control-mirror. And Aura and Seal are just for the extra disenchant effects, when you want them- say, against Stax or Raffinity or Fairy Stompy.

My testing results so far, mostly preboard;


CRET Belcher: 1:1. This is better than I had expected. The scariest thing is first turn Belcher with LED, but you can Tutor for (or just draw) Seal of Cleansing and Powder Keg to shut down tokens/Charbelcher, or Orim's Chant in response to a Desperate Ritual. Or you can cast Orim's Chant with kicker to fog a turn while you get to Wrath mana. About half of the time, that's insufficient, but post-board it should also get noticeably better with Pithing Needle, Chalice, and Seal of Cleansing/Rule of Law, etc. in place of StP and Wing Shards.

Goblins: 5:2. This is about what you'd expect. You have most of the tools Wombat has against Goblins; while there's no lifegain (although I'm pondering an Ivory Tower in the board), and only one Rune, you also have Moat and Scepter-Chant, to which they have no real answer most of the time. Humility and Thunderstaff are strong sideboard options here.

Threshold: 3:2. It depends a great deal on what color you're playing against; white and black are easier game 1 than Red, which can more often burn you out if you get too low. This matchup isn't a cakewalk at all; you have to respect the power of Mongoose and Tarmogoyf backed up by Force and Daze. If they don't draw too many counters, however, you should be able to keep their board clear and resolve some bombs, either defensive in Story Circle and Moat and Scepter, or simply in Valkyrie/Eternal Dragon form.

Red Death: 2:1. Sensei's Divining Top and Enlightened Tutor are fucking amazing here. Dark Ritual is their scariest card, as they can sometimes outrace you, and burn can take you out if you stabilize at too low life, but generally your ability to play from the top and kill all the threats they produce wins you the game.

RGBSA: 2:5. Genesis and Anger are really bad for you, especially with discard/Wish backup. Your best bet here is to try and get Scepter-Chant online as soon as possible. Humility and Pithing Needle and Crypts make this a little bit better postboard.

Solidarity: 1:Graham's Number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham%27s_number). I don't think it's actually possible to win this matchup against a competent opponent unless they have a heart attack midway through the round.


Edit:

Most Recent List:

18x Snow-Covered Plains
4x Scrying Sheets

2x Eternal Dragon
2x Painter's Servant
2x Grindstone
1x Sacred Mesa

4x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Enlightened Tutor
1x Argivian Find

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Runed Halo
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Wrath of God
1x Moat

4x Orim's Chant
3x Abeyance
2x Isochron Scepter

Sb:
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Argivian Find
1x Grindstone
1x Painter's Servant
1x Isochron Scepter
1x Sacred Ground
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Pithing Needle
1x Aura of Silence
1x Powder Keg
1x Jester's Cap
1x Defense Grid
1x Ghostly Prison

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Why not playing some fetchlends tu tune SdT

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Why not playing some fetchlends tu tune SdT

Fetchlands do not have the snow type. Bad synergy with Scrying Sheets, which is stronger with Top.

[Lukas Preuss]

Why not playing some fetchlends tu tune SdT

Running Fetchlands would mean that the Scrying Sheets engine doesn't work anymore.

I like this deck, it has much of the power Wombat had and a nice drawing engine. With Solidarity not being one of the major parts of the metagame anymore, the combo matchup should become at least winnable since decks like Belcher can be more easily disrupted with Chant and Abeyance.

[Nihil Credo]

I've got fond memories of playing Frigid Wombat, at least before I got bored of 30-minute games. The deck's close enough that IMO you could have just posted it in the Wombat thread, but that's not worth discussing.

Major notes:

1) Adarkar Valkyrie was always terrible to me. Being snow doesn't make up for paying 6 mana for a pumped Serra Avenger with a rarely-relevant ability. Exalted Angel wins the game when you're losing, Adarkar Valkyrie wins the game when you're winning.
2) Clean up the wannabe-wishboard. Karmic Justice is only played in Enchantress, and is much worse than Sacred Ground. Hannah's Custody is crap even in Stax. Mindslaver is worthless. Aura of Silence is no Serenity. Rule of Law does basically the same thing as Trinisphere. Grindstone is cool, but worse than the Future Sight Millstone (whatever it's called). Play some Spheres of Resistance.
3) Lands: +1 Urza's Factory, +1 Ancient Den, +1/2 Mouth of Ronom
4) Possible "man plan" in the SB? If you maindeck Angels and bring in Moms, Avengers, and maybe some Knights...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I actually found the ability to be quite useful in the Threshold matchup. 4 life a turn often doesn't counteract Tarmogoyf beats, but stealing a Tarmogoyf after a Wing Shards or Wrath can be completely game-swinging.

[Cerryl]

I suppose the obvious question should be asked. What makes this deck better than a straightforward port of extended No-Stick?

[Silverdragon]

I suppose the obvious question should be asked. What makes this deck better than a straightforward port of extended No-Stick?

Obvious answer: The better manabase and a landbased drawengine. You'll never lose to colorscrew with this deck and unless your opponent has Wastelands he can't counter your drawengine. Of course this deck has other weaknesses that arise with this approach.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I suppose the obvious question should be asked. What makes this deck better than a straightforward port of extended No-Stick?

It can win games where it doesn't get Scepter-Chant online and/or the opponent runs Disenchant or Krosan Grip.

Nihil: What would you recommend as an alternate sideboard? What would yours look like?

[264505]

Coming from a standard players POV, if you need lifegain martyr of sands could do that. Obviously as a board card, but he can throw his body into an attacker and gain 15 life.

[Phantom]

Thank god someone is abusing E. tutor. I've been trying and failing for a few weeks now.

I know you can't get too cute with the mana base, but have you ever felt the need for an Ancient Den as a fetchable one of?

Edit: Nihil beat me to it.

[revenge_inc]

If you haven't already given up on the Solidarity matchup you could try fitting 3 more Rule of Laws in the board. As well how about the janky "Wall of Hope" in the board vs Aggro?

Your numbers vs CRET Belcher seem optimistic. I would be interested in the results of futher testing against the deck.

I think a few of the creature choices, mainly so many Valkyries are sub-par. If I feel up to it I will search the Gatherer for creatures and suggest a few.

I really like the deck and I think that with some work it could become competitive.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Did you try that Snow-Artifact-mana card for 2 mana? Heart of Something? I use 3-4 Mind Stones in Wombat and I find them critical to ramp up the mana curve to 4cc on turn 3. Is it not worth it to tap out on turn 2?

Speaking of 4cc have you tried Gerrard's Wisdom? Seems like your hand would be full of cards with the Snow Engine. I use Wisdom in Wombat to Time Stretch against aggro, and its pretty rediculous against decks with a slow clock. Also, it can make a turn 3 Tendrils win much harder for your opponent if you can accelerate into it.

I think you could stand to be a little (a lot) less zealous with the Tutor Board. Why Story Circle over Rune of/Circle of Protection? I think Warmth would be a good target for the burn MU.

EDIT: Coldsteel Heart

[nitewolf9]

If you haven't already given up on the Solidarity matchup you could try fitting 3 more Rule of Laws in the board.

I think if he did that it would kind of be like trying to put out a forest fire with a super soaker. More than a little bit of wishful thinking, and definitely a waste of board space I would think.

[BoardinCharlie]

In the SB is there a reason we are running Thunderstaff rather than Caltrops...preventing is nice, but if we can kill them why not? Only reason I could think of was to pump decree tokens for a faster kill or make eternal dragon/valkyrie trade with enforcers. It just seems that it would be more effective without the need for humility, but I'm the creator of the deck so I would like your input.

[Xero]

I like the MD, but I think the SB could be changed. I would run something like:

1x Humility
4x Chalice
2x Rule of Law
2x Crypt
1x Trinisphere
2x Needle
1x Sacred Ground
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Thunderstaff

I think the Chalice count needs to be upped for combo, and that things like Mindslaver and Millstone aren't all that hot.

[Nihil Credo]

I actually found the ability to be quite useful in the Threshold matchup. 4 life a turn often doesn't counteract Tarmogoyf beats, but stealing a Tarmogoyf after a Wing Shards or Wrath can be completely game-swinging.
I'd be hard-pressed to find a better example of win-more :tongue:

Anyway, my tweaked list:

// Lands
15 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
2 [CS] Mouth of Ronom
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets
1 [DS] Darksteel Citadel

// Win conditions
3 [ON] Exalted Angel
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [MI] Sacred Mesa

// Creature control
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
2 [DIS] Condemn
2 [SC] Wing Shards
3 [PR] Wrath of God
1 [9E] Story Circle
1 [LG] Moat

// Stall or lock
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
3 [OV] Abeyance

// Search
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor

// Toolbox
2 [MR] Isochron Scepter
1 [UD] Powder Keg
1 [FNM] Seal of Cleansing

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 2 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 1 [7E] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [WL] Serenity
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [TE] Orim's Prayer
SB: 1 [TSP] Stuffy Doll

Changes:

+1 Condemn, -1 Wing Shards: Unless you're playing against Goblins (the only deck that will give you storm before attacking), Wing Shards is a crappy Edict until turn 4 at best. In my book, that means it's a 2-of, not a 3-of. With a lot of Goblins in the meta, it can deserve the third slot.

Exalted Angel over Valkyrie: Already explained.

Toolbox lands: Combined with dropping the Valkyrie, this brings the snow count down to 21; considering that Scrying at blind doesn't happen that often (you'll usually draw either a Tutor or a Top, and if you have neither, chances are your hand contains removal or Angels), I find that an acceptable price. I went with Darksteel Citadel over Ancient Den, since it's immune to Wasteland (which is critical when you're Tutoring for a land). Urza's Factory was skipped since the deck already has four separate win conditions, and Extirpate-style hate isn't expected in Game 1.

Sideboard: Completely reworked.
4 Spheres of Resistance give you a shot vs. combo, and going to 3 Powder Kegs makes Goblin tokens much less scary - but it is also useful against Landstill manlands and the like.
Jotun Grunt is graveyard removal that doubles as a solid beater; works well as a generic spot-filler.
Serenity owns Stax and Enchantress (protect it with Chant/Abeyance against the latter!). At first I was worried about it blowing up Sacred Ground, but then I realized that if you have Sacred Ground in play against Stax, there's no reason to want to blow up the board.
Orim's Prayer replaces Thunderstaff; the Staff's ability is irrelevant since you'll side out Decree and Mesa in those matchups, and an enchantment is generally harder to remove for Burning Wish Combo.
I cut the Millstone wannabe (although my pick for that slot, if any, would be Tower of Murmurs), because the only deck against which I'd rather have that than Stuffy Doll is Life.dec. The Doll performs admirably against large, non-evasive beaters (Tarmogoyf, I'm looking at you).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

While I'm not 100% sold on Adarkar Valkyrie, Exalted Angel is little better. The spirit link isn't significantly better than Vigilance + creature stealing, and I never want to morph her. And often not costing a card off of sheets pushes Adarkar significantly over. If I was to drop her at all, it would be for +1 DoJ, +1 Dragon, and +1 Scepter.

Combo: I already have a shot versus combo. The new combo doesn't care about Sphere because it's usually going off before Sphere hits. I'd rather run Pithing Needles or more Ghostly Prisons or Powder Kegs to deal with Goblins (Ghostly Prison being good against all kinds of Goblins). Combo simply works differently than it used to. It's less vulnerable to slow stax effects, at it doesn't wait to get a few extra cards and mana drops before going off; but it is more vulnerable to things that deal with 1/1 hordes.

I don't need Wing Shards before turn 4 against Gro/Fish variants, and Goblins feeds it if they're going to kill me before it hits. Considering that StP + Wing Shards is almost always a Wrath at instant speed, I don't think your argument for cutting the number of Wing Shards is strong enough. I really don't want to lose to Nimble Mongoose simply because I can't find an answer. I think 5 StPs is enough here.

I'm definitely interested in Mouth of Ronom, but I'm worried that 15 White sources is too few. I have found myself wishing I could tutor for mana, and Darksteel Citadel is also a bonus against Armageddon, so I'm definitely interested in running that card. I might try one Mouth for a bit.

Stuffy Doll eats it to StP in the Landstill matchup, which Grindstone does not. Although the thought of running Tower of Murmurs instead had occurred to me, given how slow that matchup is.

I had been running 2x Crypt for the ability to play it twice, which I found quite useful. I wasn't running Jotun Grunt though. But in my experience, while Jotun Grunt can be a good beater, he's actually really shitty graveyard hate against anything but Threshold.

The argument about Orim's Prayer being harder to remove for Belcher than Thunderstaff is actually pretty decent. But at that point I think I'd rather just run Ghostly Prison and be able to bring it in against Vial-Goblins.

Right now I'm looking at something like this:

16x Snow-Covered Plains
4x Scrying Sheets
1x Mouth of Ronom
1x Darksteel Citadel

2x Decree of Justice
2x Eternal Dragon
3x Adarkar Valkyrie (or +1 DoJ, +1 E Dragon, +1 Scepter)
1x Sacred Mesa

3x Enlightened Tutor
3x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Orim's Chant
3x Abeyance

4x StP
1x Condemn
3x Wing Shards
3x Wrath of God

2x Isochron Scepter
1x Powder Keg
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Story Circle
1x Moat

sb:
3x Pithing Needle
3x Ghostly Prison
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Aura of Silence
1x Powder Keg
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Humility
1x Sacred Ground
1x Tower of Murmurs
1x Ivory Mask

[TheMightyQuinn]

Wow, I'm touched. And I even like the deck. Snow is too cool.

[Tao]

You may want Jotun Grunt in the Valkyre slot. Valkyre is a strong finisher and has snow synergy while Grunt is a solid creature and his ability can work like Gaea's Blessing in Helldozerdeck or Irish Wombat and recycle your threats and solutions. Just see him as a 5-mana creature that is playable as a 2-mana-wall against Aggro decks.


see the matchups you tested:

Belcher: both are not important

Goblins: Grunt is a fast blocker when in trouble, even though he is a worse finisher here; again both are about the same.

Threshold: Grunt is pure awesomeness, Valkyre is way too slow; Grunt is a million times superior

Red Death: 2 Mana and he stops every creature they have and they can't kill it without a 2-1 for you (or a 1-1 / 0-1 against a Shade and they can't play Disruption that turn and they need to have a lot of Black mana). Valykre is unplayable unless you have already won; again Grunt is way superior

RGb/SA: The only matchup in which Valkyre is clearly stronger.

Solidarity: It weakens their Flash of Insight. Furthermore it can be played and you can still leave Mana open for Chant and Abeyance.

Furthermore Grunt can randomly beat decks like Ichorid, Loam or similar Yard based decks.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I can almost buy this, but I'm failing to see the synergy Grunt has with snow. I'm definitely liking the idea of Grunt more than Exalted Angel, however.

[Tao]

I didn't mention any synergy of Grun with Snow.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Ha, I misread your post. n/m. I'm retarded.

[Di]

I just came across this thread and realized that now, with it's more Enlightened Tutor-based gameplan, it is very similar to the Holy-redux deck I came up with around 2004. IBA you may remember this as well as we discussed it a bit and there's also two threads on it, so I can't help but think some of the ideas from The Mighty Quinn might've been borrowed from it. Now, those threads are unfortunately in Archives so members can't view them (although I'd like to work to make the archives public as they are great reference points), but I'll post the list that I had.

Now, keep in mind this is from November 2004, right after the B/r split took place, so it's very outdated. The list was primarily focused on dealing with the Survival outbreak and to handle all the new artifact acceleration the format was given, just in case anyone was wondering on the bizarre design.

4 Exalted Angel
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Mobilization

4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Humility
1 Null Rod
1 Cursed Totem
1 Aura of Silence
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ivory Mask
4 Argivian Find

2 Pulse of the Fields
3 Tithe

3 Wrath of God
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wing Shards
2 Illumination

2 Chrome Mox
2 Wasteland
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
11 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Sphere of Law
1 Humility
1 Null Rod
1 Cursed Totem
1 Aura of Silence
2 Choke
2 Defense Grid


Fortunately, there have been numerous advances in card printing that make this deck better (Scrying Sheets, Grunt, etc) so the obvious make the cut today. But to answer some of the things you were wondering IBA:

- Regarding life gain, Pulse of the Fields is a freaking bomb. It was huge then, I run it in my Landstill sideboard now, and it's incredibly good. I'd give it a shot.

- Is the flying ability make Sacred Mesa that much better than Mobilization? I'd assume yes, as by that time you'll have like 10+ land in play, so the upkeep shouldn't be an issue.

- Null Rod is incredibly good against combo. I'd at least test them for the combo matchups, but I'm not sure if it's better than Trinisphere (although the cheaper cost is nice).

- Argivian Find is hawt. Maybe not as good now as it was then, but Regrowth on all that stuff is really good.


Pretty much everything else is rather similar in terms of design (I later had Isochron Scepter in the list as well). It's funny how similar that looks after 2 1/2 years.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

1) Moat + Mobilization = Not a combo. Also, Mesa doesn't produce Soldiers, which is important when you're facing Engineered Plague.

2) Yes, there are similitaries between Holy Redux and The Mighty Quinn. There are also similarities between Holy Redux and Crazy 88's. There's bound to be some similarities between any builds of MWC. However, note that Mighty Quinn is better adapted to the current metagame with more answers to first turn Goblin hordes, a better draw engine (which is to say, any), a smoother mana curve/manabase, and a powerful lock in Scepter-Chant that allows it to compete against strategies like Terrageddon or RGBSA.

[Di]

1) Moat + Mobilization = Not a combo. Also, Mesa doesn't produce Soldiers, which is important when you're facing Engineered Plague.

derf derf. Please excuse my lack of eyes for I did not see a Moat in the decklist upon first glance.


2) Yes, there are similitaries between Holy Redux and The Mighty Quinn. There are also similarities between Holy Redux and Crazy 88's. There's bound to be some similarities between any builds of MWC. However, note that Mighty Quinn is better adapted to the current metagame with more answers to first turn Goblin hordes, a better draw engine (which is to say, any), a smoother mana curve/manabase, and a powerful lock in Scepter-Chant that allows it to compete against strategies like Terrageddon or RGBSA.

It's more difficult to compare them to Crazy 88's or other MWC builds because there are really the only ET-based ones, at least the only ones that I've seen. Holy redux and The Mighty Quinn have far more close lists (bare in mind the time difference) than any of those other lists. And obviously this list is more adapted to the current metagame, it's the only recent monowhite list since Rabid Wombat (which was awful no offense). I mean, you can't take old decklists and compare them to a current metagame, unless they happened to be the same metagame.

Anyway, you didn't really answer my questions, but rather just stated the obvious. I tend to breeze by your posts because they are normally composed of nothing but endless paragraphs filled with big words and irrelevant rhetoric, so I'm unsure as to that's how you normally respond, but I was wondering what you actually had to say about that. I'm not trying to start an argument with you, that'll cause me to leave the thread out of boredom. I just merely, as you did, state the obvious. :)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I tend to breeze by your posts because they are normally composed of nothing but endless paragraphs filled with big words and irrelevant rhetoric...

...I'm not trying to start an argument...

What a silly and obvious lie.

To answer your question, no, Holy Redux wasn't an inspiration in building the deck, aside from providing a good idea of how not to use Enlightened Tutor.

As to your other points, aside from the Sacred Mesa one, Null Rod costs two mana and most of the time CRET Belcher will empty their hand on turn 1, so that's not the best sb hate. And I don't want either Pulse or Argivian Find because I don't want to cut room for multiples and I can't tutor for either.

[thefreakaccident]

Is there a point in having the scepter 'lock' in this deck?

I can't see it any more affective i n a nonblue deck that cannot protect the 'lock' even if it wanted to.

wouldn't you just simply want more board control instead?

[Tao]

The scepter lock can create wins out of nowhere against decks like Survival, Loam, Rock or Ichorid, all matchups which are autolosses without it. It also wins G1 against Goblins, Faerie Stompy and other Aggro decks. Furthermore Chant is a gamebreaker against Combo. It is also good together with Wing Shards against Thresh/ Fish or against Control decks to force key spells into play.
And Scepter is not only good with Chant, but also with Swords and Abeyance. I think the Scepter / Chant is a strong inclusion.

[TheCramp]

Frank P. Ramsey is the stone cold shit. Their should be pigeons in magic, and holes for them to hide in.

[Nihil Credo]

White Command

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana4.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manaw.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manaw.gif Sorceryhttp://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/lorwyn-rare.gifChoose two - Destroy all enchantments; or destroy all artifacts; or destroy all creatures with a converted mana cost of 3 or less; or destroy all creatures with a converted mana cost greater than 3.


Soo... kill opponent's creatures, your Dragons and Angels live; kill opponent's (flying?) creatures and Jitte, your Mesa or Moat lives; kill opponent's Enchantress army, your Isochron Scepter lives. This card looks pretty damn badass in any MWC shell.

[Pinder]

White Command

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana4.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manaw.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manaw.gif Sorceryhttp://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/lorwyn-rare.gifChoose two - Destroy all enchantments; or destroy all artifacts; or destroy all creatures with a converted mana cost of 3 or less; or destroy all creatures with a converted mana cost greater than 3.


Soo... kill opponent's creatures, your Dragons and Angels live; kill opponent's (flying?) creatures and Jitte, your Mesa or Moat lives; kill opponent's Enchantress army, your Isochron Scepter lives. This card looks pretty damn badass in any MWC shell.

It certainly screams versatility. It's either Wrath, or a mini wrath + Tempest of Light or Shatterstorm. This thing pretty much lets you keep whatever you want on the table, and get rid of what you don't. And Mono-White can definitely afford 6 mana.

On a side note, you know we have mana symbols too, right? They look like this:


:w: = :w:

[Aggro_zombies]

Their should be pigeons in magic, and holes for them to hide in.
Actually, there are (http://ww2.wizards.com/Gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=carrier%20pigeons) pigeons, but the holes are another matter.

The white Command seems interesting here, but is it really better than a standard Wrath? It's a full two turns slower, which matters against fast decks. Plus, your creatures already can recur themselves (Eternal Dragon, two Valkyries). How often do you need to selectively destroy artifacts or enchantments? If it doesn't come up that often, it might be more productive to run this in the sideboard, if at all.

I will admit that this card is far and away the better card when compared to Akroma's Vengeance, at least in this deck.

[Nihil Credo]

On a side note, you know we have mana symbols too, right?
I do, but I just cut & pasted from the MTGSal spoiler page.



The white Command seems interesting here, but is it really better than a standard Wrath? It's a full two turns slower, which matters against fast decks. Plus, your creatures already can recur themselves (Eternal Dragon, two Valkyries). How often do you need to selectively destroy artifacts or enchantments? If it doesn't come up that often, it might be more productive to run this in the sideboard, if at all.

I will admit that this card is far and away the better card when compared to Akroma's Vengeance, at least in this deck.
I was thinking that because Vengeance has pretty much disappeared, and White Command isn't that much better than it (let's face it, it will be a six-mana Wrath over half the time), it would be more interesting to somewhat build around the card.

In other words, you could run more permanents in the deck and leave only 2-3 Wraths as your symmetric removal; the rest would be StP, Wing Shards, White Command, and Moat, none of which would affect your own creatures. A set of: 2-3 Dragons, 3-4 Valkyries, 4 Exalted, 1-2 Decree, 0-1 Crovax might be a good place to start.

[ChiliConCarnage]

Historically speaking, decks such as "Quinn" or as I have come to call it, "Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman," are really only as good as their silver bullets and sideboards therein (i.e. Flores Black, Maher Oath, etc.) The deck's ability to side in a strong if not perfect answer to almost any deck is its greatest asset, right?

So, what is the ideal md toolbox/sideboard for you guys?

I really like Powder Keg and Moat MD. However, Story Circle seems somewhat weak, as preventing damage against most aggressive decks is just too mana-intensive (especially considering that the deck wants to throw down a scepter-lock post haste, which costs 2-3 mana a turn). Neo-Goyf decks (Aggro Loam, RXX Zoo, etc.) have threats that come in many different colors, hurting it even more.

Story Circle is also quite slow against combo, as you have better options against Belcher in the form of Chant-locking them before the big belch (plus pithing needle in the board). Their goblin plan backup plan is also a bit much for Story Circle to handle alone. I cannot think of another combo deck that uses a damage dealing spell to kill you, as TES uses life loss, salvages game uses nigh-infinite damage, aluren uses uses infinite damage.

Oh wait, there's Cephalid Breakfast and their 40/40 Sutured Ghoul. You play a deck designed to wreck creatures. Nevermind. In conclusion, it seems like a better sb card. Maybe you can wreck a 15-year old playing burn.

Does Pithing Needle warrant its own md spot to hurt belcher and fully lock goblins under scepter chant? MD crypt?

A very rough toolbox/sideboard for me would look like this:

MD Toolbox:
1 x Moat
1 x Powder Keg
1 x Pithing Needle


Sideboard:
2 x Pithing Needle // Answers lots of stuff; see below
3 x Tormod's Crypt // Dredge!/Threshold
1 x Powder Keg // Dredge/Threshold/Belcher/Aggro Loam
1 x Chalice of the Void // Yeesh
1 x Ghostly Prison// Dredge/Belcher/Any Aggressive Creature Strategy
1 x Sacred Ground // Aggro-Loam/Stax
1 x Rule of Law // Storm-based combos/Salvager's Game
1 x Serenity (Aura of Silence) // Stax/Random Affinity/Any artifact-based strategies
2 x Seal of Cleansing // Jitte/Vial/Belcher
1 x Enlightened Tutor // Goes in versus any strategy where you have a good to great silver bullet
1 x Abeyance // Useful as another scepter option vs. loam, non-instant speed combos, and control/aggro-control matchups

So, this sideboard is quite rough, but it appears to get the job done. Serenity is a great card, but to be effective it has to be the first permanent you play in a given game, as nuking your scepter and/or forcing your divining-top to the top of your library suxors.

Aura of Silence can be experimented with here, particularly if you run Mox Diamond (which lets Aura out on turn two but is highly anti-synergistic with Serenity) or see a great deal of Stax or Affinity in your neighborhood. Turn two Aura is actually an extremely strong play against said decks.

Chalice of the Void is another tough call to make here, as the 'good' chalice numbers (1,2) screw your deck up pretty badly. Thus, one Chalice is included to stop LED and other good turn 1 plays.

Pithing Needle is an all-around great card versus, well, almost everything that plays permanents (stupid Dredge). Turning off Vial, Jitte, Engineered Explosives, Deed, Cephalid Colliseum, SGC, Belcher, Cavern Harpy.. (insert many other cards here) are all good plays. You know what to do with this card.

I believe the rest of the cards make sense. Comments? Suggestions? Designing these type of tool-box sideboards is one of the toughest tasks in magic, especially in a wide-open format like legacy.

[Jaynel]

Temporal Isolation is a tutorable answer to Sutured Ghoul if you have a Top in play and 3 lands.

[clavio]

I spent about a month trying to make a good pox deck without any success. I decided to throw together Quinn, and I went 3-3.

This is the list I ran:

18 Snow Plains
4 Scrying Sheets

3 E Tutor
3 Divining Top

3 Valkyrie
2 Eternal Dragon
1 Jotun Grunt
2 Decree of Justice

3 Wrath of God
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Orim's Chant
3 Abeyance
3 Wing Shards

2 Isochron Scepter
1 Moat
1 Story Circle
1 Ivory Mask
1 Powder Keg
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Sacred Mesa

SB

3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Rule of Law
1 Null Rod
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Privileged Position
1 Sacred Ground
1 Serenity
1 Humility
1 Karma
1 Damping Matrix (anti Death and taxes tech)
1 Warmth
1 Ghostly Prison

I should have done better than 3-3, one match I boarded like an idiot and I made several play errors through the day. 3-3 is still decent considering I haven't played at all since the summer.

This deck gets a lot of cheap wins against decks that just cant handle scepter chant or moat game one. When you win people hate their life, which is good.

Goyf sligh is just too fucking fast for what I had to handle it. Story circle is too clunky to stop everything. I don't think you can live long enough to cast both Ivory mask and Moat. Warmth sucks.

Karma is very good.

I'd say that any threshold deck not running burn is a favorable match up.

I ran grunt as a way to get back my silver bullets that had been countered. Every game I got him he was very good. I think he is probably better than Valkyrie.

[strom]

Hoofprints are a lot better than Sacred Mesa -especially togehter with Sheets.
Oblivion Ring might be a decent addition, too.

[danpo]

correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't think scrying sheets triggers hoofprints. it says you reveal the card, then put it into your hand. hoofprints requires a draw to add a counter.

[clavio]

Hoofprints doesn't get helped by sheets, but it does get help from top. I didn't consider playing it because I didn't have any.

[matelml]

In a meta with little combo, would this be a playable deck at the moment?

16x Snow-Covered Plains
4x Scrying Sheets
1x Mouth of Ronom
1x Kor Haven

3x Decree of Justice
3x Eternal Dragon
1x Sacred Mesa

3x Enlightened Tutor
3x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Orim's Chant
3x Abeyance

4x StP
1x Austere Command
3x Wing Shards
3x Wrath of God

3x Isochron Scepter
1x Powder Keg
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Story Circle
1x Moat
1x Oblivion Ring


I yet have to figure out the Sb. This deck hasn't been discussed for pretty long, is it outdated, or are there new cards that should be in there? Would this be a good list at the moment?

[Roman Candle]

I've actually been tesing a version of Quinn right now (without the toolbox/scepter tricks) and I've been getting great results. It's in N&D right now, if you want the list.

[Joon]

I don't get what N&D is, so would you like to post a link or the list itself? Thanks.

[Maëlig]

I don't get what N&D is, so would you like to post a link or the list itself? Thanks.

N&D (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25)

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I don't get what N&D is, so would you like to post a link or the list itself? Thanks.It stands for New & Developmental. The thread in question is here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9418).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Someone let me know if this list is as amazing as Goldfishing makes it seem.


1 Ancient Den
17 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheet

3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Condemn
3x Wing Shards
3x Wrath of God (-1 WoG, +1 Karmic Justice? How prevalent is Armageddon these days?)

3x Enlightened Tutor
3x Sensei's Divining Top

2x Eternal Dragon
2x Decree of Justice

1x Hoofprints of the Stag
1x Moat
2x Runed Halo (This card seems ridiculous. Is it?)
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon (Anti graveyard tech that can also stop you from decking - or would Tormod's Crypt just be better?)
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Powder Keg
2x Isochron Scepter

4x Orim's Chant
3x Abeyance

[raharu]

Is there any particular reason that Hoofprints of the Stag wouldn't fit well in this deck?

EDIT: Derp, I meant the archtype itself, not IBA's deck specifically.

[Jak]

List

I just don't like Isochron Scepter. The only reason I ever ran the card was because MWC needed more permanent answers. It relied too heavily on the top-deck. Now that Runed Halo is printed, I feel that it does the job a ton better than Scpeter Lock because it doesn't take time setting up, isn't CD, and it is awesome.

I also don't like Enlightened Tutor. It finds answers... but to decks you should already beat easily. IMO, you should just up Runed Halo and Oblivion Ring to 4 and cut out ET. Maybe I just like draw instead of tutoring, but I always found that ET was pretty lame and never did anything to the game, but make me not lose games against Survival, goblins, etc. A Runed Halo or O RIng would have done the same thing.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Hoofprints isn't as good as Mesa, as it turns out. Mainly due to Humility in the board.

Anyway, over the weekend, although I was playing Standard/Block, I realized for the first time with full force something that's been tickling the back of my mind for a while;

Decks that can't win their rounds in time must inherently suck.

Probability stacks over time. Over a long enough set of games, assuming that playskill is neutralized as a variable, the favored deck always wins the exact amount of games it's favored to win. But any shorter amount of games introduces the chance for variables. If I'm 60% favored against a deck, for instance, I'm substantially more than 60% favored to win the round... assuming I can finish three games in that time.

But if I can't, I'm needlessly exposing myself to losses and draws against archetypes I should've defeated.

It is therefore not enough for a control deck to be able to break the opponent's assault. It is vitally important that it be able to capitalize on that quickly.

In Truffle Shuffle, this means that I've been adding more kill conditions. For Quinn, however, I think that a combo kill is superior. Between the Enlightened Tutors and Chants/Abeyances, we're already well set up to force in a quick combo finish; and besides, Eternal Dragon is not the recursive beater that Gigapede is.

So, the combo. Time Vault and Mizzium Transreliquat doesn't actually kill the opponent at all if they choose not to concede, and so only compounds our problem. Charbelcher and Endless Horizons has some potential, but it clashes with our draw engine and simply isn't that fast, although both pieces accomplish something on their own. Lego suggested Grindstone and Painter's Servant, and I have concurred. The idea of a turn 3 kill in MWC amuses me, for one thing. So, here is the list as I'm testing it right now;

// Deck file for Magic Workstation

// Lands
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets
17 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
1 [SHM] Mistveil Plains

// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [SHM] Painter's Servant

// Spells
2 [MR] Isochron Scepter
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [SC] Wing Shards
1 [LG] Moat
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
3 [OV] Abeyance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
2 [SHM] Runed Halo
2 [TE] Grindstone
3 [REW] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Painter's Servant
SB: 1 [TE] Grindstone
SB: 1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [MM] Ivory Mask
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 [10E] Story Circle
SB: 1 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
SB: 1 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 1 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 1 [MI] Sacred Mesa
SB: 1 [RAV] Privileged Position


The maindeck only has one singleton, favoring reliability over silver bullets. The combo obsoletes many of the needs for singletons anyway; There's less need to worry about recursive threats when you can kill in one turn. The sideboard is all singletons, although many of them are heavily redundant.

I'm liking this deck right now. It can steal quick games, or it can wear down the opponent's edge until dropping the kill all at once; or, alternately, just going Dragon or Decree beats.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So, went 5-2 in the Source tourney with the following list;

18x Snow-Covered Plains
4x Scrying Sheets

2x Eternal Dragon
2x Painter's Servant

2x Grindstone
2x Decree of Justice
3x Enlightened Tutor
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Runed Halo
2x Oblivion Ring
3x Wing Shards
3x Wrath of God
1x Moat
2x Isochron Scepter
4x Orim's Chant
3x Abeyance

SB:
2x Argivian Find
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Sacred Ground
1x Jester's Cap
1x Story Circle
1x Jester's Cap
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sacred Mesa
1x Genju of the Fields
1x Powder Keg
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Aura of Silence
1x Hanna's Custody

Matchups:

Round 1- Solidarity. Seriously? I die.
Round 2- Bye. I beat the shit out of this guy[/Igottheroundbyejoke]
Round 3- TES. Orim's Chant maindeck is awesome.
Round 4- I think Survival. Scepter-Chant is amazing.
Round 5- Aggro Loam. Sacred Ground from the board is big, as are both combos.
Round 6- SwanThresh. I made a playmistake game 1 that cost me, using Oblivion Ring early on a creature and then basically losing to Counterbalance. Then got burnt out another game. Very sad face.
Round 7- Landstill. Jester's Cap was fucking amazing game 3. This would so go to two hours in a tournament.

More details later.

Solidarity is a terrible matchup, but I should've won the SwanThresh round. I played poorly. The deck's fucking amazing though. Although I'm cutting DoJ and possible either Wing Shards or Wrath (or moving them both to 2-ofs). Top definitely needs to be a 4-of, and Sacred Mesa should be maindeck.

[Roman Candle]

Is it really necessary to play two Painters? You don't really want to draw them until you can combo out, which is turn 6 minimum, but usually later so that you have chant protection... and by that time, the deck usually has control of the board and can wait on the kill. Grindstone at least can do stuff on its own.

EDIT: Also, do you miss Mouth of Ronom at all? It can be kinda win-more, but it was always nice to have, especially when you could bait an opponent into wastelanding it with a Sheets in hand.

EDIT2: Cap is listed twice in the sb.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I would say yes, just because of StP. Sometimes you want to try and combo relatively mid-game, before you have the full protection up, and it's a lot easier to do so knowing that if you run into StP, you can always try again later.

[Valtrix]

So, I've had quite a bit of obsession with mono-white decks right now, and have been thinking of building a deck like this, only more permanant based. However, I was wondering how a deck like this would perform versus a mono-white stax. I honestly don't have much experience with either of them, and I know they play quite differently. I do however want to build one eventually, and would like to know which would be "better." I feel like stax would probably be stronger, but I want to get some input on this deck too.

[Occam]

^I would build this instead of white stax. I like the stax archetype more, but legacy stax lacks the glue that Vintage has, and most stax variants are a couple of cards away from being perfect. This allows for more versatile metagaming, while stax is a one-size-fits-all deck, and plays the opponent's deck rather than your own.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I honestly don't know. Armageddon Stax seems problematic, but they also scoop pretty hardcore to Chant-Lock, and have few ways of dealing with the kill-combo. That said, LD in general is the deck's biggest weakness, so I'd definitely bring in the Sacred Ground for starters. The SB in general seems like it helps a lot.

I think the second Cap listed accidentally in the sb was actually a Scepter, but I could be wrong.

Also, Mouth of Ronom: Actually, I lost a game and thus a round to not drawing enough White, so I'm leaning away from adding more colorless, although perhaps 1x Ronom wouldn't be as bad with the 4th Top. But I don't think it's necessary either.

[Muradin]

With the Enlightened Tutor silverbullet toolbox, why aren't you running a Wheel of Sun and Moon in your sideboard as I think it might actually be better than Tormod's Crypt in this deck.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I was running a Wheel of Sun and Moon, but basically kept encountering where I never really preferred it to Crypt. In what scenario is it better? I can think of Solidarity and Imperial Painter, neither of which is particularly prevalent.

[thefreakaccident]

Armageddon stax has challice @ one and armageddon...


That being said, congrats on the 5-2, I am glad to see someone else beside me actually doing something with control decks nowadays.

[clavio]

Have you considered running Privileged Position in the board as a way to protect your things from grip?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

See Hanna's Custody. I had PP, but basically came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth paying an extra two mana to protect Halo and Moat. Five mana's a lot.

[Roman Candle]

Another thing to note about PP though is it protects Dragon from biting an StP. Is that, alongside protecting Moat and Halo worth two more mana? Probably not, but it does help the deck "get there" earlier.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Perhaps... I think a better question might be if it's worth running either, when Argivian Find already fulfills a similar role better. I can't remember ever Tutoring for Custody, even when I was facing Grips.

Edit: Updated the first post with my most recent list. Ditched Wing Shards and DoJ for +1 Halo/Ring/Top, and one each Mesa/Argivian Find maindeck. Tweaked the sideboard based on the cards I never found myself caring about.

[slyfer]

Did you have troubles with decks that have recursions, like survival (or survial + vial) ?
Troouble with the fact that you cannot destroy enchantment/artifact maindeck? Or maindeck grave removal?
If enchantress plays seal of primordium you cannot combo with scepter lock, and he can outdraw you.
Or genesis/squee can recur things like 1x viridian zealot.
Icorid can outrace on turn 2/3, but it could be stopped by a turn one sensei/tutor for 1x tormod

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Oblivion Ring can take out artifacts/enchantments.

To answer your question; while I did have a lot of trouble with graveyard recursion, I find that between Scepter-Chant and Painters-Stone, it just doesn't come up that much anymore. Mainly these days I worry about Counterbalance, Chalice of the Void and Devastating Dreams, and large quanitites of burn, and not much besides.

Tormod's Crypt could help Ichorid maindeck, but where else would it really be relevant? Is it worth a maindeck slot? Aggro-Loam is already a pretty good matchup game 1, since they have no maindeck answers to either combo, and their creatures are fairly easy for you to deal with. It seems better to me to rely on StP, Orim's Chant and Runed Halo to stall Ichorid until you can get Moat out or combo out, although I'll admit I haven't tested this matchup much.

[mugs]

After reading IBA's report and list and my own experience with MWC I am finding the following an outline of where I'm looking to test

I'm keeping the Wing Shards because I find vs Thresh and other aggro counter based decks, to be very tough matchups.Especially with cards like Enlightend Tutor and Isochron Scepter often being liabilities.

Wing Shards might help a bit more vs them than Wrath, and it seems that the decks that fall to Wrath are usually vulnerable to Scepter Lock.

Everything else and the card numbers seem right on to me.

- IBA you have done some really nice work pushing the archtype development lately .

//NAME: Mighty Quinn

2 Runed Halo
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Grindstone
2 Painters Servant
1 Sacred Mesa
3 Wing Shards

3 ?????

3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Moat
2 Isochron Scepter
3 Abeyance
4 Orim's Chant
2 Eternal Dragon
4 Scrying Sheets
18 Snow-Covered Plains


options I'm considering and comments from others about them

Main Deck:


3x Phyrexian Furnace - I'm not thrilled with them but they have utility and cantrip


3x Ray of Distortion - they Look like they might help answer some problems like counterbalance or Chalice and be relevent vs a good amount of decks ( I'm at least going to put them in the SB for testing)


2x Wrath
1x Tormod's Crypt


Tithe? + Snow Covered Forests? would you consider a Splash Color for Krosan Grip, and other sideboard options?


Sideboard:

I find a 4th Enlightened Tutor almost invaluable in the sideboarded because
when they work well i.e. many of the non-counterspell based decks often I just need to complete a reliably early combo or bullet to establish advantage.

Would a 4th Abeyance be a better option than the 2nd Argivian Find?

2x Argivian Find
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Sacred Ground
1x Jester's Cap
1x Story Circle
1x Pithing Needle
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Genju of the Fields
1x Powder Keg
1x Wrath of God
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Aura of Silence
1x Hanna's Custody

anyones thoughts welcome on these, thanks

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Well you could always go -3 Wrath, +3 Wing Shards. I dunno. Ideally I'd like Wrath, Wing Shards, Runed Halo and Oblivion Ring all in the same deck, but they seem to be jostling for room. I'm liking the third Oblivion Ring because it does address problem cards like Counterbalance and Chalice (especially good against the latter). I'm not sure if there's a correct balance of the removal suite at the moment, it might be more of a metagame decision. I've also found Runed Halo to be really good against Thresh, though, as they usually run just 2-3 creatures. Ditto to Landstill. Now, Counterslivers or Merfolk it's probably a lot suckier against...

[xsockmonkeyx]

Tithe? + Snow Covered Forests? would you consider a Splash Color for Krosan Grip, and other sideboard options?


Tithe only grabs plains. Tithe + Savannah would do it. Alas, there are no Snow-Covered Savannahs.

[Valtrix]

So, this seems like a somewhat safe place to post my mono-white, since I've been working on a list too =P So, first I'm going to post what I've been tossing around on Workstation for a list, and then I'm going to put some comments after it. I have little concept for a board right now.

// Lands (25)
13 [OV] Plains
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [DS] Darksteel Citadel

// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
2 [MI] Sacred Mesa
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
3 [MR] Isochron Scepter
4 [WL] Abeyance
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [SHM] Runed Halo
3 [REW] Wrath of God
1 [LG] Moat

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [8E] Circle of Protection: Black
SB: 1 [8E] Circle of Protection: Green
SB: 1 [TE] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [TE] Circle of Protection: White
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 2 [TE] Hanna's Custody
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 1 [WL] Serenity

Really, I like having permanants for a lockdown, because I can fetch them with enlightened tutor, and I really need one to shut things down.

Right now I'm wondering about a couple things about your list:

The first is painter-combo. Is this the right win condition the deck needs? I mean, it's faster than most other options once played, but it does require two pieces, and I don't like that there's almost no creatures (except dragon), so it should be easy for removal to target him. I can't help feel that something like sacred mesa/decree of justice would be a more resilent choice over him, although slower. Painter does help a little bit early game in blocking little creatures, but that's about it.

The second thing I'm curious about is the scrying sheet/top engine. Has this engine proved very effective? I guess it's certainly a good way to use mana, and having 4 non-basics is hardly much of a threat to wasteland over 0. Top also seems like a solid inclusion, to help find the appropriate answer for the deck being played against. When I've been working on mono-white, I tried running crucible + horizon canopy/flagstones, which I liked a lot as well. I felt that crucible possibly opened up more opportunities as well, such as wastelands to help stall, or perhaps recurring mishra's factories, or some other land techs. Though, mishra's factory could really only be considered a win condition with humility, and blinkmoth nexus is too slow. I don't want to get too complicated with the deck, but when I played this way, I always liked to see my crucibles. (perhaps that was because I was too reliant on it.)

I've never really cared for eternal dragon, because I don't like to spend early turns cycling for a land, and when I've run mesa/decree, I generally find that he's too slow for that. However, I do like that he's a recurring win condition (as long as he doesn't bite it to StP), so he might be worth including. Time is definitely a factor in matches.

I'm unsure what to do for a removal/denial suite as well. 4 StP is obviously an auto-include for how good it is, but after that it's a hard choice. I'm thinking that 2-3 oblivion ring is probably the right choice as well, since it gives you more outs against troublesome permanants that aren't creatures, but also giving you the flexibility to hit them. At least 2 runed halo also seems solid. This is always a 1-for-1, but can start shutting down decks like Threshold with a low number of threats. This also gives you some more power against combo, naming Tendrils. I'm almost wondering if this could be somehow increased to a 4-of to further enhance matchups against low variety of threats. Also, it's cheap, but it easily dies to EE. As for spells to kill things, wing shards and wrath of god are the obvious next choices. I'd probably run shards only in addition to, just to be sure I'm getting the best trade for my spells.

Also, I like the 4th abeyance against blue and combo. Also helps us dig, and can shut some people off mana with fetchlands for a turn if used early game.

Not sure about ischron scepter. I've really been liking that combo, and scepter is still really good with swords, and at least acceptable with abeyance as an engine. Random wins without tutoring are powerful.

Okay, I said way too much, so I'll try not to say much more, but I'd like to discuss this deck with you IBA, so see if we can catch each other on AIM sometime =)

[Roman Candle]

The first is painter-combo. Is this the right win condition the deck needs?

You try finishing a game against Landstill with Decrees instead of Painters and Stones. It's far less fun.


The second thing I'm curious about is the scrying sheet/top engine. Has this engine proved very effective?

Yes. Lands that draw cards are good. Read: Library of Alexandria.

It also gives you a way to find your kill.


Also, I like the 4th abeyance against blue and combo. Also helps us dig, and can shut some people off mana with fetchlands for a turn if used early game.


It won't turn off their mana unless they're really incompetent or not paying attention. They'll always just pop in response if they need the mana.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I came to the conclusion, at the Richie Profitt tournament, that decks that can't play and finish three games in 50 minutes inherently suck, statistically. So, yes, I'm a huge fan of the combo finish (I should mention that Lego Army Man was the first one to suggest it to me in this deck), I think it's what actually makes the deck highly viable and pushes it past something like Landstill, Truffle Shuffle, It's the Fear, etc...

The Scrying Sheet engine has been amazing for me. Never drawing land and making a land drop each turn, while digging rapidly through your deck, is just really, really good. And it doesn't even take up a spell slot. It's hard to think of a card draw engine I'd prefer even outside of White.

Eternal Dragon offers a lot of flexibility. He shuffles for Top, smooths mana, beats, blocks, and keeps coming back (usually). I wouldn't say that I'd never cut him, but Dragon's just a damned good card. DoJs might be better as kill conditions in that slot, but offer less versatility.

I don't think a fourth Abeyance is a terrible idea, but there are a number of cards jostling for room, and I've got to say it's one of the few slots in the deck where I've never felt any pressure at all to cut or add. Seven Chant-effects is already quite a few, and you don't want Chant itself as a 3-of since it's part of your hard lock.

Scepter is really good. I feel like I ought to be running more, but I always seem to find it at the right time as a 2-of.

[Mirrislegend]

Alas, there are no Snow-Covered Savannahs.

Arctic Flats? Sure cip tapped, but it provides access to Krosan Grip awesomeness

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It can't be searched for. Honestly, I'm not sure I even want Grips. Aura of Silence is a lot more powerful against a lot of decks that could be problematic, such as Blah-Stompy or Enchantress or Armageddon Stax. I'd rather run more Auras first.

[Mirrislegend]

My bad. I thought it was a cip tapped snow savannah. However, the decks you mentioned tend to end up with plenty of mana to spare, and power out their artifacts and enchantments anyways. If Quinn had better control of the stack, to allow for playing priority tricks, then Aura of Silence may suffice. But without that, I feel like the value of instant speed, split second ownage cannot be ignored.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

While it's true that those decks can get around Aura by around turn 5-6 usually, they also completely suck it to the combo-win or Scepter-Chant. So generally all I'm trying to do is get that running. For this reason I'd rather run Aura.

[Phantom]

I have to say, I'm insanely impressed with the new direction of this deck. Kudos to IBA and Lego for the idea and its execution.

The only curiosity I see in the list posted on the previous page is the 3x E Tutor. While perhaps not the strongest number in game 1, it seems that you would almost always want as many chances to tutor up your bullets from the board.

[mugs]

If it helps I tested a similar deck last year mwc combo with scepter lock and many of the card numbers IBA has, I found indendently also - to be correct. notably.
2 Isochron Scepter
3 Enlightned Tutor
1 Moat

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Basically. Multiple E. Tutors suck a lot. I guess there's an argument for one in the board, but I've actually found board space to be pretty tight. The tutors offer a lot of redundancy with putting together different board states, depending on the opponent, but you don't want to be choked by them. And Top also duplicates the effect to a large extent.

[Mantis]

Despite my efforts, I find myself unable to figure out what the Grindstone and the Painters Servant in the sideboard are for? You already run them maindeck, so what's the point?

Also, the Defense Grid in the SB seems unuseful, this is not a tempo deck and opposing control decks can just wait until they have the mana to circumvent the effect and use their counters to anyway. Tutoring for a Scepter and imprinting Abeyance or Orims Chant seems much more useful.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

When I'm more worried about removal/counters, or the combo is going to be my first line of offense rather than a delayed win condition (such as, for instance, when time is an issue), I'll side in the extra parts of the combo. The third Painter comes in especially often against StP, for instance.

Defense Grid is more usful than it might seem. While this deck is still slow, it does have the option of winning turn 6-7 realistically (earlier occasionally) through the combo. And the mere threat of Defense Grid forcing through the combo can force them to keep mana open even where they have free counters. And besides the combo, it can also just force through all the silver bullets. That said, it's not one of the most important cards in the SB, and could be cut.

[nitewolf9]

Have you considered scour in the board? It seems like a good answer to counterbalance and this deck really needs some help in that department. Might be a little narrow but counterbalance tends to be everywhere at most "high level" tournaments.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Counterbalance can be exaggerated. It's usually not that backbreaking unless you're caught off guard with a hand full of 1cc parts. And running 3x O-Ring maindeck helps quite a bit. The problem with Scour is that it's really only good against Counterbalance, where more Auras would be tutorable and relevant to multiple matchups, including hitting Chalice and, I suppose if it comes up, the mirror. Also, it can destroy a Standstill.

If I wanted an instant answer, I think I might just rather have the Ray of Distortion mentioned by mugs earlier. Being able to hit Chalice, Pithing Needle, et. al., is pretty big. Not to mention having an out to Scepter-Chant if the mirror ever becomes relevant.

I'm going to just go ahead and break down the tension between the contested control slots and their functions;


Moat- Shuts down the attack phase, hopefully. Doesn't deal with Goblin-burn or flyers or utility creatures. I think this is still best as just a tutor target, as sometimes it's simply not relevant.

Wrath- Good against horde-based decks, anything Tribal, Survival, etc., anyone that overplays their position.

Wing Shards- Good against aggro-control. But can be played around. Also, much much better against Blue-based midrange than Black, which can just hit it before their attack phase with discard.

Runed Halo- Good against decks with a few powerful win conditions, weak against hordes. Good against combo.

Oblivion Ring- Good against decks with a small clutch of kill conditions or powerful key cards like Chalice, Counterbalance, Jitte, Survival, etc. I'm pretty sure that this should definitely be bumped to a 3-of.

StP- I don't think this is contested, but what the hey. Very cheap, efficient 1-for-1 at instant speed.

Condemn- Might be worth considering? But heightens vulnerability to anti-1cc effects in Chalice/CB, and doesn't necessarily offer more power than Halo or O-Ring.


Outside Shots:

Vengeful Dreams/Shining Shoal- Card disadvantage, generally, but offer a lot of potentially game swinging power.

[Mister Agent]

I like aura of silence as a tutorable tech in the face of counterbalance, chalice of the void, and other enchantments and/or artifacts that can poise a problem. Although I imagine oblivion ring is more utilizing against aggro-control decks since it operates in a similar manner to vindicate.

However even E. tutoring for a nevinyrral's disk or an oblivion stone seems like some hot tech against alot of decks in the format. It is also unfortunate that skull of orm costs a bit much for activation usage.

[Malloot]

I was wondering if there is a place for Gelid Shackles (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/6.html) as a 1 of in this deck, seems like a nice tutor target and can be drawn through Scrying Sheets aswell.

[Roman Candle]

What do we think of this guy:

Elspeth, Knight Errant 3WW

Planeswalker-Elspeth

+1: Put a 1/1 white Soldier creature token into play
+1: Target creature gets +3/+3 and flying until end of turn.
-8: For the rest of the game, creatures, artifacts, enchantments, and lands you control are indestructible.

I'm not sure this can work in the modern builds that don't run Humility and play with the Painter combo, but in a more traditional build, this seems potentially really stupidly good. Engineered Explosives was always the most annoying card ever when you were trying to win with Decrees... this guy solves that pretty well. I dunno if he's better than the combo, but he at least seems worth testing.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If Elspeth were tutorable, it might be sexy, but even then it'd be competing against DoJ, which was already cut. The Indestructibility just seems too hard to get to to really be relevant most of the time.

So, as I'm playing this deck more I'm getting a better sense of it's weaknesses. Basically, Counterbalance and Chalice, and mass LD, are functionally the only things that worry me anymore. Aside from those, I really can't remember the last deck I had a hard time against. The problem is that those, especially the first two, are fairly common and pretty damaging.

After talking with Eldariel a bit, I'm consolidating the sort of mashed up sideboard. I'm cutting the crap that's not really necessary and focusing on what's needed.

3 Sacred Ground; This card stops one of the singlest biggest problems for the deck single-handedly. It deserves to be run as more than a 1-of, even with Tutor.

2 Endless Horizons, 2 Goblin Charbelcher; An alternative win that doesn't give two ripe farts in the wind about Chalice or CB. With Scrying Sheets, you need to combo over multiple turns usually, but as part of the anti CB/Chalice gameplan, it seems strong. Also, neither piece is dead by itself.

2 Aura of Silence, 2 Seal of Cleansing; No brainer. Take out the card that hurts you.

2 Relic of Progenitus, 2 Story Circle; Other-purpose sideboard cards. Relic for graveyards, Story Circle to deal with creature-based decks and especially burn/fairy stompy where Moat isn't much help.

[Pulp_Fiction]

If you are having problems with Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void test out Return to Dust. 2WW Instant, Remove an Artifact or Enchantment from the game, if you played this spell during your main phase you may remove another Artifact or Enchantment from the game. Do you think in the main you could replace the Painter combo with Endless Horizons combo? It just seems like neither piece is dead on its own. With Top in play Belcher may actually be able to kill some creatures and Horizons is just good by itself. Painter's Servant is useless except as a chump blocker and Grindstone is just pointless aside from occassionally fucking up an opponent's Tutor. Of course mana cost is an issue here but the Horizons combo also doesn't care if your opponent has StP.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Basically, CB and Chalice matter in the format, but they don't matter as much as speed. Grindstone-Servant is faster, easier to force through with Chant, and doesn't require me to activate it multiple times, which Charbelcher usually would. I think it's better in the board.

Also,

HOLY SHUCKING FIT!

Scourglass - 3WW
Artifact (R)
T, Sacrifice Scourglass: Destroy all permanents except lands and artifacts. Play this ability only in your upkeep.

It doesn't solve Chalice/Equipment problems, and it's got terrible synergy with O-Ring, but this card is definitely pretty sexy. Might be worth reformatting around.

[Illissius]

Why is it better than Nevinyrral's Disk?

I wonder why they went with "play this ability only in your upkeep" rather than "comes into play tapped".

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Because you can keep on using it, for one thing. Also, it doesn't blow up your kill conditions or Divining Top.

[Zach Tartell]

Because you can keep on using it, for one thing. Also, it doesn't blow up your kill conditions or Divining Top.

Sacrifice is part of the activation cost.

[KillemallCFH]

Because you can keep on using it, for one thing.You do realize that it has to be sacrificed to pay for it, right?

[Illissius]

Scourglass - 3WW
Artifact (R)
T, Sacrifice Scourglass: Destroy all permanents except lands and artifacts. Play this ability only in your upkeep.

Not hitting Scepter & co. is valid.

EDIT -- I am beaten. (The Source Online Rapid Response Team in action. In a way, it's depressing.)

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Oh wow, I thought that same exact thing.

On the plus side, it will aways be faster or as fast as Disk.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Oh, wow, I'm stupid. Never mind.

How is dropping this fifth turn, waiting until your next turn as fast as dropping Disk fourth turn? No, I take it back, Disk is better. Hitting Equipment, Chalice, Chrome Mox is good. I can't think where I'd need this if I had Scepter-Chant lock active.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

How is dropping this fifth turn, waiting until your next turn as fast as dropping Disk fourth turn? Because I missed the part about using it during your upkeep. Apparently white artifacts are hard to read.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'll run with it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Despite the problems with Scrying Sheets, my testing so far with the alternate combo kill in the board has been pretty impressive.

1) Both pieces are useful by themselves.

2) Goblin Charbelcher is awesome with a Top out.

I'm actually pondering the strengths of moving the combo to the maindeck. It has less of an ability to win out of nowhere, but it greatly reduces the vulnerability to Counterbalance/Top, and would allow me to run Humility maindeck.

I'm torn.

Also, Story Circle is really good with Painter's Servant. That's all. Black is usually correct, by the way, due to Snuff Out/Ghastly Demise/etc.

[clavio]

I personally like the Horizons/Belcher kill. Opponents are not nearly as prepared for it as they are for the painter/grindstone. Additionally, horizons is very useful on it's own. I'd almost consider running it without belcher.

I've been running 3 eternal dragons. They're good when the combo kill gets stopped somehow (gaea's blessing).

[badjuju]

Has everyone decided to go with Painter's Servant / Grindstone?

I noticed that nihil credo's list in the most recent Source tourney (Sept 16) was packing more removal/anti-combo and didn't run the extra kill (just dragon and DoJ). I actually prefer it that way, although Painter's Servant provides the "oops I win" factor. Did you think by running that combo you would have won games you wouldn't have won otherwise?

Were you more worried about running into combo that you ran 2 Gilided Lights md and 3 Runed Halos md? How was Hoofprints vs Sacred Mesa in that situation?

Otherwise, that list looks bomb.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Actually, I had nothing to do with that list. It was a mockup. I tried getting them to edit the list for the tournament, but they didn't, and it lost. Frowntown. I think the combo would've helped a lot. I really didn't like that list, it only had two Tops for God's sake.

I don't recommend Gilded Light in this deck. Tutorable anti-combo cards take up less room and are more versatile. 1x Ivory Mask would be better if you wanted something like that, although Runed Halo is cheaper and in some ways much more versatile (naming Tarmogoyf, for instance).

[Valtrix]

I also think ethersworn canonist in the board might be a decent anti-combo card as well. I'm not sure if more anti-combo past halo, chant, and abeyance are needed, but it seemed pretty good to cut them off for most of the game (Since most combo doesn't run creature removal).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I haven't found combo to be that difficult a matchup, generally, except for Solidarity of course, but who plays that deck? Fetchland Tendrils is mildly problematic, but 3x Runed Halo on top of all the Chant-effects is pretty good against them.

I'm top 4 on a MTGSal tournament, somehow. This isn't the list I'm using but it's the list I would use and probably will use Saturday, if I can get some of the cards.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
18 [IA] Snow-Covered Plains
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets

// Creatures
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [SHM] Painter's Servant

// Spells
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [TSB] Sacred Mesa
3 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
3 [WL] Abeyance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [MR] Isochron Scepter
3 [10E] Wrath of God
3 [SHM] Runed Halo
1 [LG] Moat
2 [TE] Grindstone

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
SB: 2 [EVE] Endless Horizons
SB: 2 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 2 [FNM] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [SH] Sacred Ground
SB: 2 [8E] Story Circle


You could run Charbelcher Horizons main, but it's worse against everything but Counterbalance and Chalice, and the 3x maindeck O-Rings and 4x Seal effects in the side aim to deal with that weakness. If you ran Charbelcher Horizons you could also run Humility instead of Moat, but generally Moat's still actually better. Especially with Dragons. There's no doubt that Moat and Grindstones are more expensive, however.

[Mantis]

Is it really true that Servant/Grindstone is actually better than Horizons/Belcher? I mean Horizons and Belcher are both fine cards to have on the table, unlike Grindstone and to lesser extent Painter's Servant which suck quite a bit if they don't get paired up. Also, Servant all of a sudden makes creaturehate in the other players deck count, which otherwise would just be dead cards. It's also better against Chalice, EE and Counterbalance.

I can see the advantages of Servant/Stone however, it is much faster and Servant can block small creatures for a while giving you time to find Stone. I'm thinking of picking up this deck myself but with the Belcher/Horizons combo due to the high amount of Dragon Stompy and thus Chalice here. I really need to pick up a Moat somehow though.

Anyway, I would love to see the decks matchups. For the large part the matchups look very good in theory, actually it looks favorable against any deck but Landstill. I can also see the deck having some issues with Goblins if you can't get Chant/Scepter up fast enough. How is the matchup against Aggro Loam, Ichorid, Threshold and Dragon Stompy?

[badjuju]

Is it really true that Servant/Grindstone is actually better than Horizons/Belcher? I mean Horizons and Belcher are both fine cards to have on the table, unlike Grindstone and to lesser extent Painter's Servant which suck quite a bit if they don't get paired up. Also, Servant all of a sudden makes creaturehate in the other players deck count, which otherwise would just be dead cards. It's also better against Chalice, EE and Counterbalance.

I can see the advantages of Servant/Stone however, it is much faster and Servant can block small creatures for a while giving you time to find Stone. I'm thinking of picking up this deck myself but with the Belcher/Horizons combo due to the high amount of Dragon Stompy and thus Chalice here. I really need to pick up a Moat somehow though.

Anyway, I would love to see the decks matchups. For the large part the matchups look very good in theory, actually it looks favorable against any deck but Landstill. I can also see the deck having some issues with Goblins if you can't get Chant/Scepter up fast enough. How is the matchup against Aggro Loam, Ichorid, Threshold and Dragon Stompy?

I don't have access to Grindstones, so I've actually been trying out Horizon's Belcher. It's kinda clunky and weird, but resolving a Belcher is really amazing.

I haven't played the deck much, but I have tested against Goblins and Dreadstill. Dreadstill wasn't actually that hard because you have many answers to their very few creatures, and the 7 MD chant effects are great for forcing through removal. Goblins was actually pretty easy too because of all the removal you have. Don't forget you can always chant/abeyance early on to hinder their progress and really screw up their curve.

I've got a playtesting gauntlet in the making. We're going to meet up every Thursday now to try out these decks, and I have Ichorid, Threshold, and Dragon Stompy already built (or proxied at least), so I'll let you know how those go as well.

[Mantis]

Ok awesome! I might start building the deck in the following weeks, it doesn't seem that hard to pull off bare the Moat which is going to be hard to get my hands on.

So you run 3 Belchers and 2 Horizons? I don't own Grindstones myself as well, and I just have motivational problems to go get a card that is so bad in the abstract but costs such a lot of money. But I'm trying to objectively determine which combo is better suited for this deck in my metagame.

Against Goblins, depending on the situation you could also use the Chants as Fog effects, that way you leave yourself a window to dig for the Scepter. I tend to never underestimate Goblins, as it always seems like you should win that match but yet it's always a difficult one as even with all the removal they are so consistent and the deck is just so well constructed it's always hard to beat. Same goes for Threshold.
In other news, I didn't expect the Dreadstill matchup to be so good, good news although there's no Dreadstill at all in my metagame.

Against what comes Aura of Silence and Sacred Ground in? Is there a lot of Stax in your metagame IBA? Or do you side the Aura of Silence in against Landstill or Dreadstill?

[Valtrix]

Aura of silence comes in for the same things as seal of cleansing, I assume. It's good against dreadnaught, counterbalance, chalice (stompy), stax (Really good against stax). To a certain extent you could also bring it in against some combo, because their artifact mana is really going to hurt them. I think part of the reason for 2/2 is to dodge pithing needle, and sometimes the extra mana aura costs, you just want to tutor for the seal.

Sacred ground comes in against aggro loam and armageddon stax (I think). Universal LD really hurts us, so we have to make sure that doesn't get resolved. You could also use it against sinkhole/vindicates, but I'd say that's less common.

Against goblins you generally can't use chant as fog, because you'd need a second one in order to get scepter-lock down. The real trick is just slowing down their tempo enough until you get down a moat or scepter-lock. Both will usually let you have enough time to find the necessary pieces to win.

Also, how good have you found eternal dragon? Because honestly...When you're running a combo, it hardly seems like you're going to use him as a win condition, and paying 2 to get a land isn't always the best thing for this deck to do. I know you can shuffle with top, but eh...E. dragon has always felt weak to me to run very many.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Aura/Seal and Charbelcher/Horizon are for Counterbalance and Chalice, which are the deck's biggest weakness, probably. Sacred Ground is for anything that targets lands a lot, which is probably your next biggest weakness. Story Circle is for burn primarily, but is pretty flexible. Those cover pretty much all your weakpoints; Crypt is just for the extra kick against como, Ichorid and Loam. It's probably the least necessary sideboard slot.

While Belcher-Horizons is better in terms of function, it costs a whopping 11 mana to pull off, vs. 6 for Painter-Grindstone. It's a lot easier to go Chant-Combo with the latter than the former. That's why I consider it better maindeck.

[Mantis]

I tested this deck just a little bit and I can say I truly wanted the Belcher combo to be good but it's just inferior to Painter/Grindstone. I had one game where I had the combo on the table but I flipped over my Scrying Sheets and only did 8 dmg, next turn he destroyed my Belcher and proceeded to beat me to death. I would have won with Painter/Stone and I can see flipping over the Sheets and then losing occuring a lot more. The abillity to just go off soon also has a huge advantage that Painter/Stone has.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah, that too. Unless you're facing a meta full of WhateverStompy or ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, I don't think it's worth running the Charbelcher-Horizons kill maindeck. The only real argument I could see for it is if you desperately needed the sideboard slots, but I don't think you do. The only deck I kind of worry about that I don't currently have a good sideboard plan for would be Landstill or something random like TrainWreck. But I don't usually sideboard for the control-on-control matchup because, hi, 50 minute rounds?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Won the MTGSal tournament, which was 50 people (counting only those who were still in as of the second round). So if I top 8 this Saturday, I think that meets current requirements for a DtW.

Would've done better with the above version, though. I don't think I even ever saw the maindeck Argivian Find, and Wing Shards wasn't too helpful. Could've used more Chalice hate in the board.

I'll get a report up in a little bit.

[Mister Agent]

Congrats on the finish Jack. It's refreshing to see a MWC deck do pretty well in a varied metagame. I think this deck qualifies as DTW status. The Mighty Quinn has strong matchups across the board and the deck is consistent. Reminds me of the good old days.

[Heresy]

4 sensei's is too much, I think you may want to play, in the course of a long game up to 2 top, so you just have to tutor it if you really need it. The longer the game, the more chance I got to draw a unnecessary copy of sensei's: with as much as 4, they get in your hand and become dead. You might wanna try -1 top + 1 oblivion ring for his vindicating tendencies.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm much, much, much more likely to lose a game for want of a Top early than for having an excess Top late, especially since you rarely have to draw the extra Top if you have one active. 4 is emphatically the correct number, I haven't regretted adding the fourth once.

[badjuju]

Grats on the finish. Can't wait for the report!

So more Seal of Cleansing / Disenchant in the board for Chalice, and a drop in Wing Shards count?

[1maarten1]

Hey, cool deck! but i dont understand... Ur saying that if you go t8 in your tournament on saturday this deck will be DtW. But i looked in the top8 thread 2008 and i couldnt find it , not even once. can u tell me where to look or give links? :)

~Maarten

[ssilver]

TES raped this deck hardcore, though IDK whether it was just his luck to get 2 chants 2 dark rits and 1 LED in an opening hand or what... My current SB had no hate for it, even though it seems like combo is one of the decks this one has a hard time against.

Ad Nauseam > Runed Halo naming anything

[badjuju]

I did about 10 games vs. Dragon Stompy tonight. Just thought I'd say that they're pretty cold to all of your spells, but Chalice @ 1 really does hurt the deck immensely. I remember one game I had 6 1CC cards in my hand when he chaliced. Not fun, especially since I was running Painter/Grindstone combo. Oblivion Ring did great, and so did Runed Halo.

[Wasteland]

What about going to Classic Style?

Following Build can Win against almost the whole Meta (except Solidarity) and does not have Combo Pieces that are useless alone...

http://www.mercadia.de/home/page.php?site=magic/deck2/deck&id=69141

mfG, Marius Hausmann

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I still had one unintentional draw, and that was with the combo. If there weren't 50-minute time limits, DoJ might be better than Painter's Grindstone, but there is.

I went 4-2-1 at the Source tourney with the list above. The differences were;


-1 Scrying Sheet, +1 Snow-Covered Plains. I wanted to make the alternate kill a bit better. I ran a new-border SC-Plains in place of the 4th sheets, and don't remember seeing it any games where I really wanted a Sheets and didn't have one, but it's hard to tell. I only killed one all tournament with the altnernate kill, though (although I made an opponent scoop another by just killing all his creatures with Belcher, and Endless Horizons was actually useful by itself another).

-1 Grindstone, +1 Decree of Justice. I couldn't find another Grindstone. DoJ was occasionally useful for blockers, but I never won with it, and several times I think I might've been able to win through comboing out with Grindstone.

More details later, although I lost my notesheet.

[Valtrix]

So, I'm hoping to take a version of this deck to a fairly large tournament in a couple weeks. Money is somewhat of an issue (I'm just cheap), so there's quite a few things that I won't be doing. If something would really help out the deck and not be too much I'd consider getting it though. This is what I'm thinking of taking right now:

// Lands
1 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
21 [ALA] Plains

// Creatures
1 [PR] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
3 [SHM] Runed Halo
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [AT] Sacred Mesa
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
2 [MR] Isochron Scepter
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [WL] Abeyance
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
3 [6E] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [9E] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [TE] Hanna's Custody
SB: 1 [IA] Jester's Cap
SB: 3 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 Powder Keg
SB: 1 [MM] Ivory Mask
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [MM] Story Circle

A few questions I have:
1) How good is the snow engine? I don't actually have all the cards for it, so I'm wondering if it's worth investing in.
2) No painter/grindstone because of money. Is horizons/belcher a better replacement over sacred mesa/decree? Should I get them for the board?
3) No moat because of money either. Is ensnaring bridge worth running? I've played with it a little bit and I've always liked it.
4) Run more/any dragons?

[U]MD inclusions
--I like 4 tutors, and with bridge it's a good way to clear my hand. I also like it with my board, which will probably be a little more toolboxy.
--1 decree for an alternate out (under counters as well), though I haven't necessary found it as amazing as I'd hoped.
--1 relic because I think graveyards are relevant enough in the metagame. This can be a long term answer to graveyard based decks, but can also buy me some time without slowing me down a ton.

Board inclusions
I honestly don't know what to do with the board. THe metagame is going to be open, so I can't really predict what to face. I except there to be quite a few thresh and loam, but other than that I have no idea.

My only experience with this deck has been on workstation, which hardly counts as real matches. I've been thinking about a mono-white deck for a long time though, but because of that I can only guess at what might work well.

[Mantis]

Not sure about questions 2, 3 and 4 but I can answer question 1: YES! The Snow engine is what makes this deck worth running.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's true that Mesa is amazing, but I think Belcher/Horizons would be a better kill.

Run at least 3 Scrying Sheets and the Snow engine. It's absolutely amazing. It makes Top go crazy in a deck without fetchlands. It's not missing land drops while not drawing lands.

[Valtrix]

Okay then, I guess I'll get those. It's not too expensive, and I already have one scrying sheets. I mean, I just ordered some orim's chants and enlightened tutors, so what's a little more?

Why do you think horizons/belcher would be a better kill? They have the same weaknesses to destruction/needling, but mesa by itself is enough to win. Belcher/horizons might be a little faster if you have them, but I do have to get both of them. And both are still fairly mana intensive, so by the time I could set that kill up I might be close to winnning with a mesa already. I think if I'm not using something as efficient as painter/grindstone that I should just go for something that can win by itself...

[Pee-Dee-2]

1) Yes. You must play the snow-engine. It has been discussed several times in this thread but once again: you will have each turn a land drop and draw also a spell each turn with it.

2) One of the best killoptions is Painter + Grindstone. Now money? Ok, so you are going to Belcher. The Mesa is a good option against control, but its a different way of playing. Without kombopeaces, you don't need Abeyance or Chant. With only Mesa, it's quiet another deck.

3) Why playing Bridge? Without snow maybe it's a choice, but with snow, you often will have about 6 cards in hand. You should play Moat. It's the best card you can play and you often lose without it. Another way coult be story circle!

4) One Dragon isn't bad. You should run one in you Deck. It searches Plains an could be a great beater.

IMO it is very difficult to ask for cardchoices etc if you don't can run every card, ever time printed. For Example the Moat. It's an expensive card, but if you ask for the better way to handle opponent's creatures, you can play it...and you also play Enlightened Tutor, don't you? The same for the painterkombo.
Hard to discuss a deck in which you can't put into all cards you need ;-) Could you borrow you some of those cards?

[Wasteland]

Thats the Build i testet and i will play tomorrow:

//Lands:
4x Scrying Sheets
18x Snow-Covered Plains

//Creatures:
2x Eternal Dragon

//Other:
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Wrath of God
2x Humility
3x Decree of Justice
2x Elspeth, Knight Errant
3x Enlightened Tutor
2x Isochron Scepter
4x Orim's Chant
4x Abeyance
1x Rune of Protection: Red
1x Relic of Progenitus
3x Oblivion Ring
4x Senseis Divining Top


//Sideboard:
4x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Pulse of the Fields
3x Sacred Ground
3x Runed Halo

I cutted all Combopieces which are Useless if you have only one of them and turned the Deck in a (Landstill similar :cool: ) heavy Control Deck. A similar Build performed quite well at the Sideevent (>100) of Protour Berlin...
Greetz, Wasteland

[clavio]

@IBA, what do you side out against faerie stomp?

[Valtrix]

Wasteland, I would very strongly suggest 1 mesa instead of 1 decree. Decree can be good, but a tutorable win condition is really nice. I think it's important to have at least 1 tutorable win condition. Thinking about Elspeth, definitely tell me how that goes. The ability to make our control pieces indestructible seems really good, while also doubling as a win condition.

I would also recommend swapping rune:red for a story circle. If you're going to run it maindeck, I think you want the versatility. Rune is better against red, but it's going to slow you down if you can't actually use it against non-red. The thing that I've found is that cantrips help consistency, but for a control deck like this, it can slow you down too much sometimes.

It makes me question the lone relic as well. I like the idea of graveyard hate a lot, but I'm still not sure if it's really needed, or too toolboxy. I feel that I wouldn't really search it out much (at least in my build), because I'd go for something to shut down creatures first. (Halo/bridge)

Humility is meh...I've tried it, but never been completely happy with it, because it's not super-easy to start making my own creatures. Perhaps this will be better with Elspeth. I'd recommend swapping one out for bridge, because for keeping you alive I feel bridge does a much better job by completely stopping things and still letting your little guys through.

IBA has said this a lot, and I'll reiterate it. The 4th abeyance is not really necessary. You have a lot against combo, and plenty against blue as well if you absolutely need to stick a spell. Again with the trouble of cantrips. You can have so many, but at a certain point you need to make sure there's a good density of control. Top helps a lot, but it can only do so much.

I'd try and find room for runed halo maindeck...It's just so good. Very strong against decks without much varied win conditions, and is useful against combo as well.

Speaking of combo...how much combo do you plan to face? I mean, ethersworn canonist seems excessive. You have orim's chant, abeyance, AND runed halo to stop combo...Is that not enough? At the very least, I'd cut a couple canonists.

For graveyard hate, I'm still unsure exactly of what to run. I think relic is generally better, but if you need speed (like against ichorid), then you need a crypt. The ability to tutor for and play a crypt on the same turn could be huge. Personally I feel that it's best to have at least one of each as protection against chalice/pithing needle.

In short, my suggestions are:
-1 Humility
-1 Abeyance
-1 Rune of protection: red
-1 Decree of justice
-1(SB) Relic of Progenitus
-2(SB) Ethersworn canonist

+1 Ensnaring bridge
+1 Runed Halo
+1 Story Circle
+1 Sacred Mesa
+1(SB) Tormod's crypt
+2(SB) Whatever

[clavio]

Why ensnaring bridge? Your hand is always going to be very full once the snow engine gets going.

[Valtrix]

Not really. Using it to let you get land drops is getting you cards that go into play...Most of time you don't need to hold onto everything you draw, and you can stop most relevant creatures in legacy with a few cards in hand.

I just don't like humility, because it still let's creatures through. I've played with a bit and always found that if I didn't have regular removal, after getting a beating for a turn or two, then with multiple creatures as 1/1s, it still really hurt.

[clavio]

Mongoose is only a 3/3. You almost always have at least 3 cards in hand at the end of turn.

[_erbs_]

Hello,
I never tried the deck but i would like to try in someday it looks fun, I have several questions and suggestions

1. Is Jester's Cap not efficient in here ?
2. Would Humility + Caltrops a bad idea for creature control ?
3. Would splashing blue for counter magic a bad idea ? instead of just relying on orim's chant and abeyance to delay your opponent
4. Since the deck greatly suffer on decks that uses chalice for 1 and pithing main board, would Devout Witness, Seal of Cleasing, Aura of Silence, Abolish, etc a must on the main board?
5. Based on your testing what is the best win condition:
a. Belcher + Endless Horizons / Mana Several if splashed with blue
b. Painter Stone
c. Tokens > Elspeth, Sacred Mesa, Mobilization, & maybe Rise the alarm via ischron
d. Eternal Dragon or other creatures like Dawn Elemental thats hard to kill and can be a recuring blocker

Thanks

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

erbs, not to be an ass, but have you considered reading the thread? It's really not that long. Some of these points have been covered multiple times and are fairly basic.

1) Define "efficient". It's slow and has a limited impact except against other control decks and decks running Gaea's Blessing.

2) Since it shuts down your best kill conditions,yes. If you ran Humility, Thunderstaff would be better all around anyway.

3) I'd rather run a different deck. You can't make the snow-mana base work with two colors easily, and the mana stability is one of the chief reasons to play this over other forms of control anyway. You're also misunderstanding the purpose of the Chant/Abeyance effects, which also double as a combo with Scepter and allow you to force through Painter/Grindstone. Besides, they're both better than actual counters against combo 90% of the time.

4) Pithing Needle isn't such a big deal, but O-Ring serves the function maindeck that Seal and Aura supplement from the side.

5) Painter Stone. That's why it's the version I'm recommending in these lists.

As noted above, Humility is generally worse than Moat since it restricts you greatly, while still alllowing damage through. It's particularly bad against decks with equipment, like Dragon Stompy or Raffinity.

Ensnaring Bridge seems weak to me, but I haven't tested it.

[Valtrix]

Been a bit busy, but I took my modified list (with bridge and elspeth) to a 30ish person tournament at Monster Den last week. I went 3-2, which wasn't terrible. I'll post a quick report later. However, more importantly my friend who (oddly enough) decided to play the real version of this deck made it to the top 4, which I think is pretty significant.

However, what is very strange is that I went to my local store a couple days ago (which isn't Monster Den), I saw somebody playing Quinn who was practing against somebody else. I thought that this type of deck was fairly underplayed, but perhaps more people are starting to pick it up.

[dahcmai]

I tried this lately and found a huge weakness. This deck has no answer to a goblins deck packing Tranquil Domain. He explained he used it for Enchantress type decks and it just happened to be a game winner against me playing Quinn.

I really couldn't see any way for the deck to deal with Tranquil at all. He just sat back and waited with a decent sized force then when he had enough to kill me just wiped the board clean of enchantments and swung in. If I happened to have some form of backup like Chant/Stick, he just used the Sharpshooter way to kill me. Burning a swords early to take care of Lacky left me open to it later unless I had two and typically I ended up having to use the second swords for Kiki-Jiki.

You typically make it up to 4 mana with not too much problem even through ports and wastes, but when you can't keep anything on the table it gets rough. Goblins is good for recovering from Wrath and swords if anything else.

I think I'm going to have to start running Karmic Justice to keep my Moat useful. Moat was turning into a Fog entirely too much. You guys see a better way to fix that? how was Vengeful Dreams in testing? Seems like a decent way to help out, though I'm not keen on losing that many cards.


At least game 1 is a blowout. Too bad they board and I get mangled.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I tried this lately and found a huge weakness. This deck has no answer to a goblins deck packing Tranquil Domain.

...




2 [SHM] Painter's Servant
2 [TE] Grindstone
...
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [MR] Isochron Scepter
...
3 [10E] Wrath of God


???



If I happened to have some form of backup like Chant/Stick, he just used the Sharpshooter way to kill me. Burning a swords early to take care of Lacky left me open to it later unless I had two and typically I ended up having to use the second swords for Kiki-Jiki.

What?

Please explain this in more detail. I'm confused.

How does Sharpshooter work around Scepter-Chant?

You guys were both aware of the first line of text on Goblin Sharpshooter, yeah?

Also, how difficult was it really to find a second StP with Top-Sheets and infinite shuffle effects?

How does Kiki-Jiki matter if you have Scepter-Chant down?

[Valtrix]

So, tournament report. It's going to be a bit foggy, since I didn't record as well as I should have. I'm not sure the completely turnout of the tournament, but I think there was around 30. Sideboard was quickly thrown together because I didn't have everything I wanted.

// Lands
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets
18 [IA] Snow-Covered Plains

// Spells
3 [SHM] Runed Halo
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
2 [MR] Isochron Scepter
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [WL] Abeyance
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
2 [6E] Wrath of God
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [TSB] Sacred Mesa

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [6E] Wrath of God
SB: 2 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [9E] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [IA] Jester's Cap
SB: 4 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [MM] Story Circle
SB: 1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
SB: 1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Round 1: Goyf Sligh
Game 1: He simply races me with an abundance of creatures. I'm not able to get a lock piece soon enough.

Game 2: He's doing pretty well, and I stablize low. In the face of two goyfs I get a chant thanks to top, and put it on a scepter. Luckily he used grips on earlier things I had played, and am able to finish the game with a mesa.

Game 3: I keep a hand of three lands, three enlightened tutors and an ensnaring bridge. Let's just say he destroys three bridges thanks to 2 grips and a tin-street hooligan in the first 6 turns or so. That was upsetting.

0-1

Round 2: Canadian Thresh (?)
Game 1: Scepter-chant won this game so hard. Just stalled until I got mesa for the win.

Game 2: This was ridiculous. Runed halo on mongoose and then ensnaring bridge keeps all of his threats away, but we just go back and forth for a long time. Bridge was kept on the board, but he got rid of my mesa before I could make tokens. I had an elspeth out, but after a few soldier tokens he played pithing needle on it. We actually go to time here, so I win the round because of my first win.

1-1

Round 3: Affinity
Game 1: Lose because of attach on cranial plating getting through bridge. Sad face.

Game 2: 1 land for the first 5 turns or so, even with a top. That pretty much spells lose.

1-2

Round 4: MBC w/ rack/nezumi shortfang
Game 1: Conundrum with this...Bridge stops his creatures, but the rack and nezumi kill me if I don't have enough cards. I think he ends up winning the first game because of this.

Game 2: I take out my bridges because they're not useful for me. He gets some discard, but I'm able to keep his threats away and lay down scepter-chant for the win.

Game 3: Something similar to game 2.

2-2

Round 5: Stalker-naught
Game 1: This was somewhat odd deck to play against. It's main problem is that the only threats were 4x stalker and 4x dreadnaught. He splashed white for vindicate and has EE, but I'm able to stop his creatures too easily.

Game 2: Same thing pretty much. This game went a lot longer, but I slow-rolled him because of his lack of threats.

Final: 3-2

So, I was pleased with this. I think I had some bad luck (And some good too), but was definitely happy. All of my games were lock into win condition into win, or having my lock disrupted and losing because of it.

Bridge is definitely not a terrible replacement for moat at all, but having the ability to go for a moat would have helped somewhat. Bridge was very useful in helping me win games. I'm not sure if a couple are warrented at all in versions without moat, but I think that at least one should be used by people who don't have a moat (me). Moat would also let me use E.Dragon more effectively to give me a long-term win, but also more shuffle effects.

I got the chance to use Elspeth, but she seems just too slow, at least when I use bridges. With moat she could clear the game in 5 turns, which might be more viable, but I definitely like mesa better, because if it's destroyed I still have useful fliers. I really felt here that painter/stone could have given me the ability to pull wins from losing games.

Also, runed halo was amazing. I kind of want the 4th one because I found it that useful. It's just so good against decks that don't have a wide variety of threats, which is quite a lot. Relic was meh. I think it's completely valid as a timewalk against graveyard strategies. I also think it's generally useful for a toolbox that only hinders a bit on time. Speaking of that, I kind of wanted to go down to 2 abeyance, but I completely realize the need for protection against blue, and it also makes it easier to choose what to sideboard.

Feel free to ask if anybody has any questions about my build or the tournament.

[dahcmai]

...

???
What?
Please explain this in more detail. I'm confused.
How does Sharpshooter work around Scepter-Chant?
You guys were both aware of the first line of text on Goblin Sharpshooter, yeah?

Also, how difficult was it really to find a second StP with Top-Sheets and infinite shuffle effects?

How does Kiki-Jiki matter if you have Scepter-Chant down?


In answer to the first, Chant doesn't stop a Sharpshooter from tapping to hit you. It only stops spells and Vial takes care of that. So with a pile of goblins and a Skirk Prospector or Siege Gang out, he just sacced a goblin and untapped the sharpshooters over and over until I died. He was keeping my Servants off the table the same way. He never needed to attack.

It was very difficult to search up a second swords since I never got past the fourth turn in any game.

He used Kiki-Jiki to copy Matron to get a Siege Gang, played it off the Vial, and proceeded to tear into me over and over copying the Siege gang.

It was only hard because I had no time to stop all of it. Lacky is a must answer to first turn, then I spent the next few answering Piledrivers and warchiefs. Then goblins can go the long game easily enough with the sharpshooter/Seige Gang route.

The Vials were the largest problem since they could cast most everything through chants. I could only board in so many answers for them and hunting them fast enough while trying to hold off the assault proved a little much.


The Tranquil Domain isn't stopped by Chant either. They can always play it in response and get it through to take out the moat, while you're paying for Scepter activations it's rough to have the mana for 4 cc stuff.


In all honesty, he probably had the nuts hands against me each time. It was entirely too convenient to have an answer right after I gave a bullet to stop one threat. Game one was a blowout in Quinns favor at least. It was that damned Tranquil Domain and Shattering Sprees post board that wrecked me.

[Soto]

Are Sacred Mesa and Elspeth or Painter's Servant and Grindstone. really much better win conditions than Endless Horizons and Goblin Charbelcher. In the first case, there's a lot of man allocation to the kill (maybe less for Elspeth as a win, but that one is longer to apply). In the second case, you're playing a fast combo but with a creature you cannot protect. These cards (referring to grindstone servant) are also useless on their own.

Playing Endless Horizons, first off makes your draws much better (obviously) and allow for a slow but almost certain kill as you can setup with Orim's Chant more carefully.

[clavio]

@ valtrix, what matchup did you have in mind with porphory nodes?

Nice finish by the way.

[Valtrix]

@Soto:

At least one Mesa is necessary no matter what your other kill condition. It just wins for you, it can also be used to stall if necessary, and it can be grabbed with a tutor if you need it for some reason. Elspeth seems reasonable in a deck with moat, but at least in my version with bridges she wasn't very good. I still like her better than decree though. I can't say if the belcher/horizons combo is actually better than Elspeth though. I think it would be simply because when you have the mana you have the game, and it's not terribly hard to get both pieces. Plus, they both are useful. Belcher is not terrible control, and horizons is just awesome.

As for belcher/horizons vs. grindstone painter, I'm not 100% sure. I honestly think the speed of painter/servant is what makes it worth playing. Sure, you can't always protect the creature, but with 3x abeyance, 4x chant, top and shuffle effects, you should be able to see one if you need it. It also makes sideboarding a little harder for you opponent, I would think. Not only do they need to worry about everything else you're going to do, they might want to keep in creature removal just for servant. Also, belcher/horizons is not always an auto-kill because of scrying sheets. (And if you really want to stretch it, grindstone synergizes with top.)

@Clavio
I didn't have any matchup in particular really. I was very rushed coming back from school to go to the tournament, so I barely had enough time to put together the maindeck cards I needed. Of what I had lying around porphyry nodes was lying around, and it didn't seem bad. More against heavy-creature decks, but even as a 1-to-1 it's not bad because it buys me time. I was able to use it in a few matches, so it was still helpful, but I wouldn't use it if I could have had access to better cards for the board.

[pandabaer]

hi
heres my build im gonna play at a saturday tournament ...
except the sb may differ ...

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
18 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets

// Creatures
2 [SHM] Painter's Servant
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
2 [8E] Wrath of God
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
2 [MR] Isochron Scepter
2 [WL] Abeyance
2 [TE] Grindstone
1 [UD] Powder Keg
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
1 [TE] Scroll Rack
1 [TSB] Sacred Mesa
1 [LG] Moat

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 2 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 2 [SH] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [10E] Story Circle
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes

already played the deck some times even without the combo in berlin pt sideevent
until now i had humility in my deck which made elspeth and decree alot better i think but i want to test them without them because for example vs landstill they are both great
relic maindeck and scroll rack are new testcards
im really excited about scrollrack in theory it sounds great in long games when you put lands on top and scrying sheets them away ...
but i also think the painter combo is essential ... in some mus you just need a fast way to win after 1 or 2 chants because u will have no chance otherwhise (for example geddonstaxx)
also i think u need it vs aggressive decks after you stalled the till turn 8 or so ... because normally you are somewhere below 10 lifepoints then and then you need to kill him in one or two turns
oh and it is essential that it is around 7 mana including chant ;)

any interesting advices tipps opinions ???? ;)

[Valtrix]

First, I'd cut the three decree of justices, because if you have the combo, elspeth, and mesa they really are not needed and slow you down more than neccessary. You don't need a ton of win conditions anyway, because you're going to see yours, and they're going to do their job. I never really liked decree because you really need a lot of mana to guarantee a win...

With those three slots I'd run 3 Runed Halo maindeck. I'd say no less than three halos, because they're super-fast and they stop things very well. Especially since you've decided to run only two abeyance, this can help your combo matchup a bit as well.

I don't really like powder keg in this deck because you have better answers in my opinion (except against tokens, but I don't think they'll be too much of a problem). I mean, even wrath is almost realistically better if you have the lands right away to play it, since keg can't kill goyf until the 4th turn if you start with it. I'd add the 3rd oblivion ring. ALthough you have a lot of shuffle, I think it's very good to have more answers to things that aren't creatures. O-ring offers that, but also gives you the versatility to hit creatures.

I have to go now, but I'll post more later :P

[pandabaer]

ok first of all
i think decree is one of the best kill options in this deck (in my opinion better then elspeth and maybe even mesa) in can't be stopped by needle (heavily plaeyed around here) and it freaks out the landstill players (you can play more or bigger decrees than they do) so they would always need explosives and standstill to make their carddraw work
but your right about to many win conditions i think so im thinking about cutting the 1 elspeth maindeck the whole time ... ... and maybe i should try without the decrees but until now they were always sooo good but until now i also had humility (oh and i like them do die slowly ;)))) )


another card you might suggest might be the relic but i think at least here it is in like 90 percent game winner because people play loam or ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
also you can handle anoying explosive recursions. just a little meta call you might say

powder keg is in my opinion way to good to cut
it can kill belcher tokens fast enough to let you survive
it can kill chalice of the void (sure you will have hard way of finding it with chalice of one but it is one more out)
sure it is not good in handling tarmogoyfs but it does many other good jobs
at least thats what i think :)

yeah and about the cards you want to add ... im pretty sure these are the right cards
i want more oblivion rings (mainly for dark confidant who is such a beating)
and i want runed halo at least 2 md ... but the only think i would like to cut is the 1 elspeth

[Brehn]

i think decree is one of the best kill options in this deck (in my opinion better then elspeth and maybe even mesa) in can't be stopped by needle (heavily plaeyed around here)

Decree can be stopped by Needle.

[pandabaer]

i can then still hardcast it ;) i know this isn't perfect but at least it is not a dead card ... and with mesa and elspeth you normally already invested card and mana after they handle it for one mana with needle
when they play needle on decree they normally have to guess and you can just shuffle them away with tops or hardcast it


maybe cutting 1 decree and 1 elspeth for 2 runed halos
:P
after testing today i think i will cut the scroll rack and perhaps 1 decree and 1 elspeth md for 2 runed halos and 1 oblivion ring

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Winning for six mana is just really good. There's not a lot else to it. Painter's Stone lets you win games you were going to lose. Remember that the reason control is good is because it ruins other people's plans, not because it's slow. If you can win earlier, you should. Hell, that's why Flash was broken, it was a control deck that won on turn 2.


In all honesty, he probably had the nuts hands against me each time. It was entirely too convenient to have an answer right after I gave a bullet to stop one threat.

You're talking about a scenario involving active Vial, Sharpshooter, Kiki and Siege-gang against a deck running Wrath, StP, Scepter-Chant, and a six-mana winning combo.

I think this one should be chalked up to luck. The last thing you want to do as a control player is fall into the trap of fighting god-hands.

[clavio]

What do you guys usually side out for the faerie stompy matchup? I know things like moat should come out, but i have trouble finding room to bring in all the disenchant effects.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Based on Valtrix's inquiries earlier in this thread, and my experience that Sacred Mesa resolving > Anything aggro control can usually do, especially WhateverStompy, I've modified the sideboard thusly;

-4 Belcher/Horizons
+2 Sacred Mesa
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Story Circle

In this case, I'd side out;

-1 Moat
-4 Painter-Stone combo
-2 Isochron Scepter
-2 Orim's Chant

+4 Disenchant effects
+3 Story Circle
+2 Sacred Mesa

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The interesting thing about that sideboarding option is that it makes Chalice a double-edged sword; If they drop it for 1, while it still shuts down a large number of your spells, they can't drop P. Needle, which is usually their only answer to Story Circle/Sacred Mesa.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Some questions:
Is Mana Tithe worth considering as a sideboard option for this deck? It seems like it might help you fight against Chalice of the Void, which everyone is saying is a problem for this. Granted, they would play around it once they started expecting it, but they're pretty much guaranteed not to expect the first one... Just a thought.

Did anyone have good results using Elspeth and/or Ajani Goldmane? It seems like these both might work pretty well, or be unspectacular, and I was wondering which it turned out to be...

One more random card idea: Solitary Confinement. It seems like you could run this as a one-of in the sideboard and be able to keep it going for a while with Scrying Sheets and Divining Top out, and it might be a good way to add tutor-able stall to the deck as backup to the Chants and Abeyances.

I'm perfectly willing to believe any and all of these are bad ideas, just throwing them out there, I'd be interested to hear what y'all think of them.

One other thing I was sort of interested in that I saw in another thread is someone saying "Quinn could be a deck that would be utterly ridiculous and dominate nearly everything, it's just waiting on the one ideal card to be printed for it." Granted, this is a really ambiguous statement, but it made me wonder: what exactly does this deck suffer in consistency on? Is it just that there's not an ideal fatty white creature to use as a finisher, or is it the varying weakness to Chalice and Counterbalance? What is the ideal card that this deck is looking for, or what exactly do y'all think the dude who said that meant?

[_erbs_]

Some questions:
Is Mana Tithe worth considering as a sideboard option for this deck? It seems like it might help you fight against Chalice of the Void, which everyone is saying is a problem for this. Granted, they would play around it once they started expecting it, but they're pretty much guaranteed not to expect the first one... Just a thought.

Did anyone have good results using Elspeth and/or Ajani Goldmane? It seems like these both might work pretty well, or be unspectacular, and I was wondering which it turned out to be...

One more random card idea: Solitary Confinement. It seems like you could run this as a one-of in the sideboard and be able to keep it going for a while with Scrying Sheets and Divining Top out, and it might be a good way to add tutor-able stall to the deck as backup to the Chants and Abeyances.

I'm perfectly willing to believe any and all of these are bad ideas, just throwing them out there, I'd be interested to hear what y'all think of them.

One other thing I was sort of interested in that I saw in another thread is someone saying "Quinn could be a deck that would be utterly ridiculous and dominate nearly everything, it's just waiting on the one ideal card to be printed for it." Granted, this is a really ambiguous statement, but it made me wonder: what exactly does this deck suffer in consistency on? Is it just that there's not an ideal fatty white creature to use as a finisher, or is it the varying weakness to Chalice and Counterbalance? What is the ideal card that this deck is looking for, or what exactly do y'all think the dude who said that meant?


I doubt if wizzards would give white a fatty creature with minimal drawback and good casting is to power thoughness ratio.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

A couple more random thoughts:
Do you think this deck could get by with one Grindstone instead of two, or does the first one just get destroyed too often? If I ran one Grindstone, I'd probably go up to three Painter's Servants, to have less of a likelihood of having to tutor for the Servant, and since it chump blocks and has additional synergy with Story Circle. I could make myself buy a singleton Grindstone a lot quicker than a pair...

So although I realize Eternal Dragon is awesome in this deck, I thought of another creature I think might actually be good: Pristine Angel. Most likely this won't get the nod, since y'all passed on Exalted Angel, but think of it this way: Whereas Exalted Angel forces you to overcommit mana or turns on a creature that can get killed pretty easily, chances are once you resolve Pristine Angel, it's gonna stick on the table for a while. It can hang back and block... just about anything, and it gives your cheap instants extra value. This deck has a fair amount of ways to untap it, between StP, Tutor, Chant, and Abeyance, and this basically makes any of your instants function as a counterspell to any targeted removal they're trying to take out Pristine Angel with. It's pretty slow as a kill condition, I'll give it that, but is it really any slower than Decree of Justice?

Do y'all think this would be a feasible creature to use if I made the deck going for a man-plan either in the maindeck, or instead of the optional secondary Belcher/Horizons combo in the sideboard? I think no more than a two-of would be the correct number to use, if it's good enough to go in here that is... Let me know what you think.

*Let me also just say thank you to you guys for working on a Legacy deck that doesn't require any dual lands at all. I realize Moat and Grindstone are pretty pricey cards, but I'd rather buy three expensive cards to play a deck than spend like three hundred dollars on the fucking manabase. Y'all rock. Long live snow-control!

[frogboy]

This deck intrigues me. Can someone give me a brief matchup rundown? Most of the lists look like they skullfuck decks with guys but are kind of loose against Counterbalance decks and combo decks. Is that accurate?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Between Chant effects, Runed Halo, Lock pieces, removal, the combo kill and the draw engine, it really does skullfuck most things.

Things that give you major problems basically fall into two categories;

1) Chalice/Counterbalance. Both shut down an absurd amount of the deck and require an O-Ring to resolve in answer, G1.

2) LD. Especially mass-LD, mainly Devastating Dreams.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Just to go over my questions again and condense them a bit:

1.Would Mana Tithe do anything for this deck? I could imagine it giving Quinn a slim boost against Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void. But on the other hand, it would be completely dead if the opponent got either of these cards out.

2.Would Solitary Confinement do anything for this deck? Is Scrying Sheets just not quite a good enough draw engine for this, or does losing the cards just suck? I mean, hey, Confinement is good against combo decks, right?

3.Would Pristine Angel be a decent creature to use as an alternate finisher? She seems pretty durable, although not a terribly good clock. On the more aggressive end, how about Akroma?

4.Would it work all right to use 1 Grindstone and 3 Painter's Servant instead of 2 and 2? I'm just cheap about buying a second Grindstone, I can see how it rocks in this deck, but it's just so overpriced to buy for what it does. I'm convinced that Moat is worth it, just wondering if the 2nd 'Stone is necessary for budget reasons...

5.Was Elspeth unimpressive when y'all tried her? Too slow/ not good enough as stall?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'd rather just run Disenchant effects, up to and including Illumination, against Chalice/CB, since they're not dead off the top. Or if the opponent has two mana open.

2) Scrying Sheets won't maintain Confinement; without drawing a card a turn, you'll run out of Snow-covered Plains to top rather quickly. Then you're reduced to paying five a turn to keep Dragon going, and it's very messy.

3) No. Pristine Angel is easily countered and dies to Wrath, and offers no card advantage or secondary utility. Ditto to Akroma, with the bonus that Akroma bites it to Swords to Plowshares. Although, Pristine Angel probably does too, really, since you have relatively few instants.

4) Ehhhh. I mean, you can, but it's definitely suboptimal. I ran a DoJ in the second Grindstone's place at the Source anniversary tournament, because I didn't have another good option; I don't think you need 3 Servant.

5) Elspeth is really hard to work around Moat. Otherwise she might compete for a second Mesa slot. It's also really hard to get to the Armageddon-proof point; if they're going to nuke you, they'd do it before then.

[Valtrix]

I have very limited experience with Elspeth, but in my opinion she isn't terrible. I had a problem because I ran bridges, which meant I couldn't use the boost, so she was somewhat worthless. One token a turn is truly not what you want to use her for to win.

What I do like about Elspeth is that she not only is a win condition, but is pretty good at buying you time. However, it's important to realize that she can't be our primary way to victory. The more cards we can have doing double duty in the deck the better. She's going to make one chump blocker a turn and absorb at least 5 damage. That combination actually feels like enough to warrent her to be at least tested more, and I could see her having a part in the deck as a 2-of, even if I'm not exactly sure what I would cut for her.

Actually elspeth works well with moat. You just create a soldier token and make it fly over and attack each turn in the air for 4, so you can end the game quickly in 5 or 6 turns (Depending on the amount of swords you've used). It's not exactly the fastest, but I don't necessarily feel that it's much worse than mesa. Elspeth has the advantage over mesa of being much harder for the opponent to remove, as well as added functionality over being just a win condition. Maybe a wrath and an abeyance.

Speaking of chalice and counterbalance, if it's such a concern, shouldn't we try to find space for the 4th O-ring? I think that it should increase our matches where we absolutely need it without hurting other matchups too much. I think an E-dragon could still be cut...22 land + 1 dragon + tops is usually pretty good to find land.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Why is Elspeth harder than Mesa to remove? All you have to do is attack it.

Mesa, meanwhile, can do more than produce a chumpblocker every turn; Mesa drowns the opponent in tokens.

The only real reason to play Elspeth over Mesa would be the third ability, but I'm not convinced that's fast enough to be relevant.

[Valtrix]

Well, Elspeth affects the board much sooner than mesa. At 4 land mesa tends not to do much. Tying up all your mana for 1 pegasus token just isn't that good. Elspeth can start doing things already, and the amount of time she can buy seems worthwhile in my opinion, since if Elspeth isn't dealt with she's (probably) going to win you the game. I guess she's not necessarily harder to remove; I was considering more the games where you stop their creatures, but then they use a krosan grip to destroy their win condition. Maybe it's not such an issue because there's so many powerful enchantments/artifacts already in the deck. I don't think she's terribly hard to protect though. If you don't have enough creature control to protect her, you're probably not doing a very good job protecting yourself anyway. The only thing I don't like is that she can't take advantage of runed halo.

I never said that she should be played over Mesa, but I think that in combination with the rest of the deck might be powerful. I think her versatility is good. I don't expect the third ability to be particularly relevant either, since it's too slow. There still is the fact that she can end the game in 6-7 turns, without any mana restrictions. While not incredibly fast, it's not completely terrible, and I think it's wrong to look at Elspeth completely for how effectively she wins the game. She does more than that.

[_erbs_]

Is Eternal Dragon a must in the deck ? If its main purpose is to be a resiliant creature maybe Dawn Elemental can be used since it costs lower and is hard to kill aswell

[Hopo]

Without knowing practically anything about this deck except that it seems to draw a good amount of plains and has problems with Counterbalance and Chalice, how about some amount of Abolish? It's CB-proof and deals with chalice even when you're on the draw.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Is Eternal Dragon a must in the deck ? If its main purpose is to be a resiliant creature maybe Dawn Elemental can be used since it costs lower and is hard to kill aswell

Dawn Elemental dies to board sweepers, non-red targeted removal, counterspells, discard, and does little more than chump block the major threats of the format indefinitely. It also can't be cast off of a Scrying Sheets and has no early game utility.

Trust me when I say that Eternal Dragon is a very, very good creature. He's low maintenance until you need him and provided a lot of potential, if slow, card advantage. And he's big.

re, Abolish:

Seal would be tutorable. Threatening artifacts/enchantments aren't super prevalent in the first couple turns anyway, so it's better to maintain card parity.

[Brehn]

Abolish is just as CB-proof as Oblivion Ring. My experience is that CB/Top itself is not that bad, but as soon as your opponent is floating a 3cc spell on top, your deck is just shut down entirely. I've recently added some amount of Return to Dusts to improve this.

[Artowis]

At 4 land mesa tends not to do much.

Is the right play ever really going to be run Mesa out there on 4 land? I mean is this even a relevant play situation to be thinking about? If you had too, I would venture a guess you already lost.

[Valtrix]

Is the right play ever really going to be run Mesa out there on 4 land? I mean is this even a relevant play situation to be thinking about? If you had too, I would venture a guess you already lost.

That's the point. Mesa isn't useful with only 4 mana, but Elspeth is.

[Jak]

That's the point. Mesa isn't useful with only 4 mana, but Elspeth is.

Luckily, this deck tends to make its land drops and putting this out there on turn 6 will win the game, Elspeth won't.

[_erbs_]

Just wondering how does this deck fair with combo decks like ichorid, etc.

[Jak]

4 Scrying Sheets
18 Snow Covered Plains

3 Eternal Dragon
1 Sacred Mesa
2 Painter's Servant
2 Grindstone

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Enlightened Tutor

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Runed Halo
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Wrath of God
1 Moat

2 Isochron Scepter
4 Orim's Chant
3 Abeyance

SB
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Sacred Ground
2 Sacred Mesa
1 Aura of Silence
2 Return to Dust
3 Story Circle

Is this the list most have gotten to? Seems really strong. I plan on trying this out so just posting this build to see if it is a good place to start.

[Valtrix]

Against storm combo we have 4x Orim's chant, 3x Abeyance, and 3x Runed halo. Generally we can count on one of those, so as long as they don't get too fast of a draw we actually have a chance.

(Disclaimer: I haven't actually played this against Ichorid, so these are only my guesses of what tools we have to work with.)

Ichorid is a bit tricker though. Game one doesn't seem too great. Swords helps us a little bit, but we really need to get moat out or combo before they destroy us. There's also the option of scepter-lock, so if you can get that online turn three you're fine. I think that it'd really depend on if you can draw the answer fast enough. Post-board we have crypt to help us mostly. The problem is that ichorid is going to bring in bounce, so our previous answer of moat and scepter-lock aren't as good as before.

Also, that list above is pretty much what we're at right now. I'd say your board is a bit different, so it seems like you have different games in mind. Personally, I feel that 1 E-dragon or 1 abeyance could be cut for the 4th O-ring, we need consistent answers to counterbalance and chalice. That's just my thought anyway.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Could y'all describe the general logic as to when this deck wants to cast Orim's Chant or Abeyance? It seems like Chant should generally be pretty obvious: either you think it's the best thing you have to impede their development or not.

Abeyance especially is a little confusing for me though. I could playing Abeyance against counters during your turn to force through key spells. I realize the main thing it's in here for is to fuck over the combo players... But I'm sort of new to Legacy, I was wondering if you could present a couple situations and show when it's right to hold Abeyance and when to use it on their turn at all cost?

Also, against what kinds of decks do you want to hold a Chant so you can tutor up Scepter for it, and where should you just gain immediate tempo and not worry about trying to get the lock? Does it just depend how close you are to being killed?:eyebrow:

[Valtrix]

Well, the cards fill a few important roles.

1) It helps us against combo. If you know you're playing against combo, or think you are, then you're going to want one of these. Since they're basically all you can use against combo anyway, you're not going to just want to randomly cast either. It's best to hold onto them until your opponent decides to go off. This requires some knowledge of combo though, because you need to cast it at the right time where they're committed the most, but still can't win yet. This is generally after they've cast a few mana spells. It's hard to think of specific examples because the board position is key.

2) They help against counterspells. Counterspells are a pain, but if you can use chant/abeyance to force a scepter lock, or moat, then that's pretty good for you. Unless it's postboard, a lot of decks will have almost no answer once they hit the board. This is when it's a good time to hold onto them--When you know that you'll have a key spell that you need later.

3) Orim's chant is amazing with isochron scepter. A lot of times if I have a chant I'll straight up tutor for scepter because it's that good. The lock should buy you plenty of time to set up a very good board position to finally win.

4) They help protect our combo. Another trick is to hold onto either of these until you have enough mana to combo out in one turn. This way, creature removal can't be used to destroy painter's servant before the grindstone resolution takes place.

5) Generally orim's chant isn't used to impede development. I use it that way only when I have multiples in hand (and it feels necessary), or when I'm really pressured and need that fog. It's best to hold onto it for scepter lock. Abeyance you can be more lenient with. If you don't need it to protect painter from destruction or need the cantrip, then go for it. It can also be used T2 to stop fetchlands, but that's a minor use. Abeyance is also good, because it helps us sideboard more easily.

I hope that helps.

[Captain_Morgan]

For regular tournament use, how would you rate this deck for effectiveness/fun level?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Whose fun?

[_erbs_]

@TheInfamousBearAssassin

how does the deck answer to ichorid decks ? does it have a good matchup ?

[Captain_Morgan]

Whose fun?


The power rating behind the deck in tournament level(presuming the pilot knows how to play the deck), and the fun of the pilot.

[worsel]

Jak., I believe this is the most current list:

18 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets

3 Eternal Dragon
1 Sacred Mesa
2 Painter's Servant
2 Grindstone

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Enlightened Tutor

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Runed Halo
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Wrath of God
1 Moat

2 Isochron Scepter
4 Orim's Chant
3 Abeyance

SB:
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Sacred Ground
2 Sacred Mesa
2 Aura of Silence
2 Seal of Cleansing
3 Story Circle

On Oct.19/08, IBA said he played a tournament the day before with 19 Snow-Covered Plains and 3 Scrying Sheets. He has never said whether he has left his list that way, or whether he has gone back to 18 SC-Plains and 4 SS.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I updated the first page with my most current list, which I plan on doing in the future whenever I change it. I personally hate having to search the last ten pages of a thread to find the most up to date list.

I'm back on 18 SCPlains, and 4 Sheets. Having the second Sheet in case of Wasteland is pretty key.

@Morgan:

All pretense aside, I consider the deck to be undisputably Tier 1 in power, and I'd defy someone to actually test it at length and find otherwise. This is one of the best decks in the format, and probably the most powerful deck relative to the format I've built since Wombat was busting up a format that was 60% Goblins and Landstill. Not including Flash. I don't think there's much to improve at this point. The sideboard can be tinkered with, and plans for specific matchups need to be worked on, but the list is goddamn near perfect.

Fun; I have fun with it. If you're a Dave, The Jerk Opponent like myself, you'll enjoy it.

If you want to be friends with the opponent, maybe not so much.

@_erbs_: Ichorid isn't as bad a matchup as you might think. Runed Halo and StP and sometimes Wrath are good here. Moat and Scepter-Chant are a lockout. Even Chant can buy you time. And they have no way to disrupt your combo while you're going off.

That said, it's still unfavored, in all likelihood, at least g1. I haven't tested it, especially post board, as much as I might.

[pandabaer]

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
18 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets

// Creatures
2 [SHM] Painter's Servant
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
2 [8E] Wrath of God
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
2 [MR] Isochron Scepter
2 [WL] Abeyance
2 [TE] Grindstone
1 [UD] Powder Keg
1 [TSB] Sacred Mesa
1 [LG] Moat
2 [SHM] Runed Halo

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 2 [SH] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [10E] Story Circle
SB: 1 [10E] Aura of Silence

This is the base of my list at the moment.
After the last tournament, which went pretty good im very confident with most of the cards in maindeck and sideboard.
If you count maindeck and sb you will recognize that there are cards missing.

Maindeck right now are 57 cards which except the one powder keg all are exactly in the list of TheInfamousBearAssassin(whose list i think is like ... nealry perfect ;) )
I really do like the powder keg. At the tournament i played Belcher and Ichorid and i won two games with searching powder keg. I think that heavily depends on what decks you are expecting to face or what decks you think you have to be able to beat to get prices ;).
the 3 md slots are at the moment filled with cards i like to test.
like the 3. runed halo or 1 maindeck relic of progenitus, just because it is great in so many match ups.
and i really liked decree of silence in every game at the moment but perhaps i prefer it because many people like to play standstill in their decks over here.

i think the ichorid matchup is not that bad. in game one you can stall long enough with chants and abeyance to simply drop moat and ask for game 2. I only had 1 Tournament Game and 3 testing games in this matchup until now but i won 5 games and only lost 2(preboard 2-1 sb 3-1)
in game 2 it depends on the sb.
im a big fan of the relic since it helps in so many matchups(Threshold, team america, explosive recursion etc...) and if you have some of those in your sideboard you can win most times, because thanks to the tutors you have virtually more hate cards then every other deck.

as for the sideboard i think return to dust is a must have against chalice and counterbalance,top.

vs aggro controlle i normally like to take out tutors and or the combo to take the controlle part totally. i think tutors are not that good in these matchups because they generate card disadvantage and the probability of an answer by them is higher after sideboarding. so i normally add 1 mesa and add the decrees to a total number of 3.
with this boarding plan until now i had no problems withing ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and meerfolk at all.
so my sb normally consists of

SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 2 [SH] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [10E] Story Circle
SB: 2 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 Sacred Mesa
SB: 1 Decree of Silence
SB: 2 Ethersworn canonist
for example
the only bad mu i recognized untill now is solidarity where i saw no way to win. i think this can be tolerated since normally nobody plays that deck;). but i totally agree TheInfamousBearAssassin when he says that this deck is clearly one of the strongest in the format. and you always have a rogue factor (even if that one is getting smaller and smaller) which can be an advantage often.

[_erbs_]

@_erbs_: Ichorid isn't as bad a matchup as you might think. Runed Halo and StP and sometimes Wrath are good here. Moat and Scepter-Chant are a lockout. Even Chant can buy you time. And they have no way to disrupt your combo while you're going off.

That said, it's still unfavored, in all likelihood, at least g1. I haven't tested it, especially post board, as much as I might.

About Runed Halo, the ruling is confusing.., can you play runed halo and name black zombie token or you have to name bridge from below ?

[Jak]

Name Ichorid. You can not name tokens because it isn't a "card".

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Would Peace Talks do anything in this deck? Obviously it's not as good as Chant or Abeyance, but what if we run a couple copies in addition to the other two? I could possibly see it in a version that was more dedicated to a stall -> combo win game plan. On the other hand, it might not be good to overemphasize this path to victory, because that might make Quinn less of a flexible control deck and more of a weak combo deck... Just a thought, I was wondering if anyone thought it might be a viable route.

[Valtrix]

Unfortunately you have to name a specific card. "Zombie" isn't a real card, so you can't name that =/

Runed halo can protect you from some tokens, but only if they're a real card to begin with.

EDIT: Ninja'd

[TheDarkshineKnight]

So, IBA, what's a suitable substitute for Moat if said card is currently out of my price range?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Prayers.

Maybe a Story Circle.

Moat is so good. You really, really should pick up the one. It just fits a role in the deck that no other card does half so well.

I guess Ghostly Prison or Story Circle is the next best thing.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

So is Peace Talks really such a bad idea no one wants to reply on the subject? :cry:

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I was excited for a minute until I realized it was a sorcery. If it were Scepter-imprintable...

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I was excited for a minute until I realized it was a sorcery. If it were Scepter-imprintable...

Yeah, I figured as much... That shit really should have been an instant though, it would just be soooo much better but still very balanced... As of now, it's basically unplayable, but it could have been so sweet.

[Nessaja]

Prayers.

Maybe a Story Circle.

Moat is so good. You really, really should pick up the one. It just fits a role in the deck that no other card does half so well.

I guess Ghostly Prison or Story Circle is the next best thing.

In Enchantress you can use Island Sanctuary.. you probably can't manage that in this deck, though the 2 mana cost is quite amazing

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

There are, to my mind, two remaining questions with this deck at the present time. While the list I posted previously is strong, and as I said, to my mind, already Tier 1 in strength, there might be two legitimate ways to improve it.

1) Does the deck need more land? While the manabase isn't vulnerable to Stifle, and Wasteland is of limited value, 22 might be one too few, even with Top and Dragon and a relatively low curve. Daze is rising in use, Sinkhole even more so.

2) Should the deck run Relic of Progenitus main? This card is a ticking time bomb in this format, I think. It knocks giant holes in the structure of numerous decks in the format for two mana while drawing a card. It would be potent as a 4-of.

But for these, especially the latter, the question is what to cut.

There are three areas in which cuts are possible.

1) Something in the control suite could be dropped to one. Chalice and CB have actually dropped in use somewhat; O-Ring could go to a two of, perhaps. Alternately, with Moat already obviating Wrath a lot of the time, one of those could go. This is definitely doable, if not necessarily desirable. This frees up one slot at the most, though.

2) The kill condition could be changed. 2x DoJ instead of 2/2 Grindstone/Painter's Servant frees up two slots. Relic might solve some of the problems the combo kill condition solves; but, I'm not 100% happy about this idea. Winning fast is often good.

3) Biting into the Scepter-Chant lock. At it's most minor, this would mean cutting Abeyance. Abeyance, while a very good all around card, doesn't fit a back-breaking niche against most decks the way most other cards in the deck do. It's good on a stick against Eva Green and Loam decks. It's good against Goblins while comboing off, or anyone with Deed, since those won't be stopped by Chant. That would be three slots.

I was going to mention the possibility of taking out all nine slots, but after a little bit of thought I decided it wasn't worth further thinking about. While sometimes it's worth siding out, the combo is often game-winning and never dead g1.

I think I'll try out a list with

-3 Abeyance
-2 Painter's Servant
-2 Grindstone

+1 Snow-Covered Plains
+4 Relic of Progenitus
+2 Decree of Justice

It's worth testing, at any rate.

[Valtrix]

Huh...More decree of justice over more sacred mesas? That doesn't really seem like a good call. I mean, with moat those tokens are just going to be useless, so if you ever play moat you have to win only through your mesa tokens... Generally, I like mesa a lot better. My biggest problem with decree is that it doesn't flat out win you the game because the tokens are limited, so you end up spend up a lot of time waiting for enough mana to break through. Especially if they have creatures that aren't attacking because of runed halo. Also, stifle actually becomes more useful if we do that. I really feel that moving to decree of justice would really weaken the deck.

I do like relic a lot, which is why I played with one originally. I think it would really depend on where you play, but I'm not sure how relevant having 4 is going to be. The biggest problem I usually find is that I'm not fast enough. Rarely do I not have enough answers :P

As for abeyance, I'm not sure if cutting all of them is the right way to go. I've not liked having them so much, but I think that they're still useful. I think going down to 2x might be better before cutting completely. However, it is very worthwhile to note that without the combo kill it becomes a lot less useful.

I do agree about less chalice and counterbalance. The last large tournament I was really surprised, because I saw hardly any blue or stax/stompy there. I still feel that at least 3 is the right number because we want flexibility.

Land is meh. 22 with top and dragon really feels like plenty. We have have a good curve, starting with swords, then halo, then O-ring, then moat/wrath. We do have good answers on all tiers, and I don't feel that adding an extra land is completely worth it.

Also, may I ask why you're considering moving the combo out? Do you really just want too many slots, and the combo takes too many? I'm going to start playing with belcher/horizons, just to see how that goes. I like how both pieces can be useful without each other, and horizons seems really good for the deck.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I don't think Relic of Progenitus is quite good enough to be a four-of in the maindeck, but I could see using one or two in the main pretty easily... Personally I think the Painter's Stone combo is worth including, because it's pretty valuable to be able to win games quickly and therefor cut your chances of going into attrition wars or making a play mistake. Why not just run the rest of the Relic playset in the sideboard?

As far as more lands, I could see using Mouth of Ronom, since it's a free draw with Scrying Sheets, and it serves as free creature kill slots... Does this deck really need more than 18 snow-covered Plains??

Also, I agree with Valtrix about the Decree/Moat anti-synergy, and the fact that Abeyance is really good if you leave the combo kill in the main-deck.

...Just my two cents. I realize I'm not really a guru of this deck, but I thought I'd offer my opinion.

[Jak]

Every time I have played with the deck, the last thing I wanted to add was more lands. 22 lands with Scrying Sheets + Eternal Dragon + Top was easily enough for me to make my first 4 land drops in 4 turns and then just keep getting more.

I also don't like cutting the combo since Decree is so slow. You also aren't running Humility which really weakens the card, also. I personally like the combo kill, not necessarily Stone and Servant but the ability to just win when you have control of the game is amazing. When playing Wombat, the most annoying thing for me was having control of the game, ie having Humility in play, some soldier tokens, and still losing because of them having more 1/1s and beating me when I had to stabilize on a single digit.

Since I dislike the cutting of the combo, I also dislike the cutting of Abeyance. They make the combo much easier to resolve and they are nice tools against a combo deck. I like it. Plus it cycles!

[pandabaer]

since i play relic and decree maindeck just my opinion about your changes...

never cut the combo!!! :)
i play decree because i expect alot of standstill and Threshhold and these are the matchups where this card shines. espacially when they don't expect it. and normally play less stifle effects then counters (decree > mesa).
And the antisynergy with moat isn't that bad. Because in some matchups you already have won when you succesfully play a moat(some Threshold builds for example) in other matchups you will just top the moat away because you don't need it.

the combo is so important vs any kind of aggro deck or bad matchups like armageddonstaxx etc...
you have 3 options vs these decks normally
1. you stabilize and and then lose because you are on 5 lifes and then you need 5 turns for the kill
2. they kill you before you have a chance to win(armageddon for example)
3. you are lucky and they have a slow draw and didn't make a right mulligan decision

the combo helps so much in situation 1 - 2 its essential for the hole deck.
at the most recent tournament (got 2nd but conceded it the halffinals) i think i won 60 % with the combo, 40 with decree % and never with the mesa.
I think i could have won some games with the different win option if i would have hat them but for sure not all of them.

relic of progenitus is a so damn strong card in like 75 % of all match ups i encountered but i would not want to play four of them md.
right now im playing one maindeck im pretty happy about it. the requirement my "random" one offs have to fullfill is, that they are never a dead card and since you can cycle it for 2 relic is ok.
but 4 of them is way to much. with the cycled card you will draw a land normally 1/3 of the time. and it doesn't help you win at all. oh and i really hated it when i had to remove my dragon.
i suggest if a number of 1 or 2 md and 1 - 3 in the sb plus 1 tormods crypt.
because this way you can tutor for the 1 md if you need to what is great if your playing vs dredge. so you can delay them until you have scepter chant, combo or moat game 1.
and other times you can "tutor" it up with top and all of the shuffle effects. this helps alot when you have to face its the fear or something like that with volraths stronghold or academy ruins.
the one crypt in the sb is for the dredge mu so you can tutor something up when they lay first turn needle.

just my opinion since i have some experience with these cards

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Aggro-Loam and Survival are the two decks that give Quinn fits above and beyond the problems with Chalice/Counterbalance. At least the ones that people play in large numbers. While the combo is very strong against both, by allowing you to win before recursion can really become a huge problem, Relic serves a similar function.

Of course, knocking out your own Dragons can be annoying too. And Relic doesn't solve the larger metaconcern of the clock. Even besides just wanting to avoid G3, there's also a distinct advantage to having time to walk around, stretch, and maybe get something to eat in between rounds, instead of wearing yourself out.

So, hm. The combo is still better. However, Relic allows me to be able to recommend a "budget" version of Quinn, without Moat or Grindstones, with a cleaner conscience. Cutting Abeyance + the combo + Moat, for Humility + 3 DoJs + 4 Relic, you can save almost a hundred bucks while still having a remarkably powerful deck. It is more likely to go to time and I wouldn't want to play it at a 7+ round tournament, though.

[Zach Tartell]

Suppose I have a moat, but I just don't want to shell out for the two grindstones? What sort of a build would you suggest?(ignore the Jew Gold factor here)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Same as above, with Moat in place of Humility. Then I'll just Chant through for 2 4/4 angels if I have to. To be honest, I don't worry about that dissynergy too much, because in the matchups where I search for Moat and it sticks I've generally won at that point.


ETA: Testing so far shows Team America to be a blowout in Quinn's favor, at least G1. Sinkhole doesn't really worsen the Threshold matchup, and Tombstalker is much easier to deal with than Mongoose. Just be sure to name "black" with Painter's Servant.

Anyone else tested this matchup? Dreadstill, Team America and ANT are the decks I really don't have a lot of results for yet.

[Tosh]

A couple friends and I played ~10 games preboard of Quinn vs Team America and it pretty much blew it out of the water. When you get Moat/Runed Halo + Runed Halo you win the game. Scepter-Chant wins too.

[frogboy]

When you say Counterbalance is 'a problem' are we talking 'omgblownout' or 'Quinn is a little bit behind?' This is in reference to all the ITF variants and Threshold decks that run CB.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's pretty bad. I'm not really looking forward to the ITF matchup. The good news on Threshold decks is that they pretty much have to resolve CB to even have a chance in the late game. Even then, their late game is still weak and they have few good answers for Dragon, usually.

You do have O-Ring, though, so it depends on if they have the Force or not when that comes up.

[frogboy]

Given that your clock is anemic, couldn't they just cantrip through until they have Counterbalance + Top + Force and rape you? Is the Sheets engine crucial enough that you couldn't cut it for Grips?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

They could try this. I've never seen it work. They can't hardlock me out, so they really do have to win fast.

[pandabaer]

i have no problems with counterbalance in my version right now.
decree is normally a big problem for decks running counter balance (a advantage also of the cheaper version posted by TheInfamousBearAssasin)
oblivion ring also helps alot, cause they dont have that much cards with 3.

oh and return to dust out of the sb and aura of silence ... just make counterbalance nearlly irrelevant

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah. SB usually knocks out the CB/Counterbalance problem. Even G1, they need that + a gassy hand to win, usually. Otherwise they still pretty much bite it to Dragon +3/4 cc removal. It really helps if you land the Top first, too; which you can usually do against CB. And while Chalice can come down earlier, it doesn't shut down nearly as much.

[_erbs_]

@TheInfamousBearAssassin
Why do you have 2 or 3 Sacred Mesa on your SB list ? What or when do you use it and what cards do you board out for it

Thanks


Just a few tweaks i've made in my build that might help battle tokens and chalice of the void i run 1 powder keg

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

@TheInfamousBearAssassin
Why do you have 2 or 3 Sacred Mesa on your SB list ? What or when do you use it and what cards do you board out for it

Against decks that I side out the combo for. Also, the control mirror.

DoJ might be better there, but Mesa is tutorable. It's a tough call. Maybe +1 Mesa, +2 DoJs?


Just a few tweaks i've made in my build that might help battle tokens and chalice of the void i run 1 powder keg

What do you cut for it?



eta:

Oh, update:

Ray of Distortion > Return to Dust in the board.

[pandabaer]

i think the decree ist better most times at the moment after sideboarding im runnig 3 decrees and 2 mesas in total i think thats a good number of win conditions
i normally even let the combo in the deck vs aggro controll but i take out the tutor because the card disadvantage can be to hard vs some decks

i would cut 1 wrath of god for the powder keg ... like i said 15 posts ago

i like ray of distortion because normally you won't find 2 targets for return to dust at once ... except vs dragonstompy or something like that ...
and i still cant say how important the remove aspect of return to dust is...

[braccobaldobau]

what are the MU of Quinn now?

Because I tested this deck a few days ago and i saw that suffice only a pernicius deed for lost a game but i would like to play Quinn in a local tournament next week and i haven't a lot of time for test it :cry: .
I was testing this list:

// Lands
18 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets

// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [SHM] Painter's Servant

// Spells
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
2 [MR] Isochron Scepter
2 [TE] Grindstone
2 [SHM] Runed Halo
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [TSB] Sacred Mesa
3 [WL] Abeyance
1 [LG] Moat
3 [10E] Wrath of God
2 [SC] Wing Shards
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [10E] Pithing Needle

It's ok?

edit:sry for my bad engl. ç_ç

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Ray of Distortion also makes that Force they're saving to protect Chalice or Counterbalance a lot less powerful. I can't see where the RfG aspect is going to be good; maybe against recurring EE, but there it doesn't work because they sac in response.

My current experience with matchups, plus how confident I am about that assesment, i.e. how much I've tested it;

Fairy Stompy is slightly favored. Chalice is the biggest threat here; followed by equipment. Sideboard makes this matchup much better. You can still lose to the nuts very easily, though.
Control-Thresh is heavily favored, barring losses to Counterbalance redressed through sideboard.

Team America is heavily favored. This matchup is sort of like an exhilirating roller coaster ride; your life total plunges down as you race to lock them out of the game, but they almost never manage to actually finish you off, if you're playing competently.
Dreadstill; Haven't tested enough to say.
Canadian Thresh/Swans Thresh: Painful matchups. Nimble Mongoose can be pain in the ass. If they're running red burn or Psi Blast, they can often burn you out even after you've stabilized the board. Try to win fast. Board in Crypts.
GoyfSligh: Ukelele no good. Scepter-Chant lock early to lock out their access to some of the burn. Story Circle is key. Story Circle is on red. Story Circle is always on red. Not a fun matchup, but I'm not sure how bad it actually is in percentages. Grip's a pain.

Landstill: This often comes down to simple playskill. Strategy of the Void is to be followed. Draw their counters to the wrong targets, then land a Moat or the combo. Side out the Scepters.
MUC: Pretty much the same as above. Both matchups favor you at least slightly simply because you can win faster. You're able to win a game before turn ten, which they pretty much aren't. It's easy for you to win two games in a round here, where they struggle to do so in time. Also, this is where that energy you've saved by winning early starts to pay off; you're less likely to make mistakes in the sixth and seventh round.

ANT/Storm Combo: You run seven Chant effects and Runed Halo maindeck. I haven't had too much problem with this matchup. Board out StP and O-Ring, bring in graveyard removal, Rule of Law, extra kill conditions. Chant in response to Chant. This is a good matchup.
Solidarity: You eat shit and die.
Ichorid: Not as bad as you would think. Scepter-Chant and Moat work, and they can't do much to react to your win. But speed can be an issue. Bring in Crypts/Relic.

Survival: G1 isn't too bad, since they have no maindeck answers to Scepter-Chant. After they bring in the Grips, things get much hairier, with discard, fast creatures, and recursion hitting you from multiple angles. This is a matchup where you really want to go Chant-Servant-Grindstone-Activate as soon as possible, because you'll lose if things drag out.
Loam-Aggro: Devastating Dreams and Chalice make this matchup difficult. The good news is that nothing else is super relevant, if you can get around those two. Board in Sacred Ground, board out the combo. This was already a painful matchup before the motherfuckers started running 4x Chalice main...

@Bracco:

I haven't been happy with Wing Shards in this deck, although I do have a fondness for the card. I would cut the Wing Shards for +1 O Ring and + 1 Runed Halo.

I also would rather run the 3rd Eternal Dragon over Pithing Needle, but that's your meta call.

[thelemite]

I have been toying with this deck for a while and I will tell you it is a hell of a lot of fun to play. It takes me back to Rifter, and Angel stax.

Curious as to what you would board in/out for a couple matchups.

1- CounterSlivers
2- TES (same as ANT?)
3- Elf combo

Thanks in advance.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If you lose to CounterSlivers, it will be because they got the perfectly curved hand and had the right counters at all the right times to stop your removal. The best plan against MeatHooks is to shuffle thoroughly, aka, the Roopey strategem.

That being said, I'm not sure what I would side out in that matchup. Maybe Moat for the second Sacred Mesa.

TES: Same as ANT. I'd side out O-Ring for Ray of Distortion, the StPs for Rule of Law, 1 Relic, 1 Crypt, and 1 Sacred Mesa.

Elf Combo: I haven't the slightest clue. I don't know how this deck plays. I'd probably bring in Story Circle. Chant and Wrath seem big here. I might board out the combo and Scepters, anticipating Grip.

[Dr.AgOn]

has anyone thought of hoofprints of the stag as a win condition? it's especially good with sensei's divining top.

[Valtrix]

I've tried in a monowhite to use hoofprints before, granted it was in a version without top (Though otherwise close to this deck without the snow engine). However, I felt that it was just worse than sacred mesa. It is nice that you can lay it down earlier, but it doesn't win you the game as fast later, which is generally what you want to go for. Mesa can also pump out blockers to stall for a little bit too. In addition, it makes their removal better, since taking out a token from hoofprints slows you down more. However, now that I think about it a little more top really speeds hoofprints up. In fact, two of them lets you get a lot of counters quickly.

That said I don't think it's a [i]horrible[/c] card, and I might actually go test it sometime, but I'm just not sure how useful it'd be. In fact it may have been tested already, I'm not sure. We want things that happen right away. It might be useful in addition to mesa...I've been trying to look into more cards that can perform multiple roles for this deck.

[DeathScythe]

has anyone thought of hoofprints of the stag as a win condition? it's especially good with sensei's divining top.

if the sheets would draw and not put it into your hand hoofprints would be pretty good. But with only SDT to get extra draws (not counting relic and abeyance here) it's not close to hot

[Dr.Kokusho]

Hello. Ive been trying out 2 replenish in the sb after taking out rule of law and relic of progenitus. It its main use is to help putting vital enchantments that get destroyed like the singleton moat back into play or multiple enchantments that get destroyed by sweepers like reverent silence and deeds. I also thought of using serenity but its only use is in enchantress matchups since stax can be easily handed by sacred ground so its really not that useful. Any thoughts about the use of these cards???

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Hoofprints is worse at churning out blockers, in my experience, and worse against CB/Chalice to boot.

I'm not really seeing the usefulness of Replenish over, say, Argivian Find, which can rescue other valuable cards, like countered Tops or combo pieces.

[Captain Hammer]

Just theoretically IBA.

If you were to use the Stuffy Doll + Guilty Conciousesne combo as the win condition instead, how would your build look like.

I'm very interested in that combo, I really am eager to use Stuffy Doll as a defensive wall, Guilty Concionesce as removal and mainly have no shot of getting my hands on Grindstones anyways.

I am also likely to play Mother of Runes (as early defense against Goyfs plus Stuffy Doll's StP protection), Rebuff the Wicked to protect Stuffy Doll, Mother of Runes, Magus, Isochron Sceptar and other cards and 2 Magus of the Moats (can't get real moats).

But I would really appreciate seeing a theoretical build from you of such a list if you know it.

Edit: Also, why not play Mouth of Ronom. Turning your extra lands into removal is quite good. Coldsteel Heart seems strong as well.

[Alfred]

Jack, I remember hearing you say that you would play a white memory lapse. Well, there is a new white Memory Lapse for 1 mana more. I don't know if that changes anything, but there it is. It's called Lapse of Certainty.

[Captain Hammer]

One mana changes a lot imo. I would frankly rather play Rebuff the Wicked.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Jack, I remember hearing you say that you would play a white memory lapse. Well, there is a new white Memory Lapse for 1 mana more. I don't know if that changes anything, but there it is. It's called Lapse of Certainty.

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/2259/sceptergp2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Almost certainly not. I'd have to think of a really good reason to run it without Stick.


Just theoretically IBA.

If you were to use the Stuffy Doll + Guilty Conciousesne combo as the win condition instead, how would your build look like.

I would cut the Grindstone/Servant kill, then add 3 Stuffy Doll and 1 or 2 Guilty Conscience.

The extra Stuffy Doll would be necessary to deal with the StP issue. The good part would be using Stuffy Doll as an alternate, albeit slow as ass, win condition by itself.

More likely, I would cut the Sacred Mesa for the second Conscience, since it's role would be partially filled by Stuffy Doll. But then, I might cut an Abeyance instead, especially since I'm no longer worried about the likes of EE, Deed, or Gempalm Incinerator.

Otherwise, it would be the same list from the first post in this thread (the updated list on the top of the post)


I am also likely to play Mother of Runes (as early defense against Goyfs plus Stuffy Doll's StP protection), Rebuff the Wicked to protect Stuffy Doll, Mother of Runes, Magus, Isochron Sceptar and other cards and 2 Magus of the Moats (can't get real moats).

No.

Maybe Rebuff the Wicked.

Otherwise, no.

[Captain Hammer]

So I take it it would look something like this..

18x Snow-Covered Plains
4x Scrying Sheets

3x Stuffy Doll
2x Guilty Concscience
3x Eternal Dragon

4x Enlightened Tutor
3x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Wrath of God
3x Runed Halo
3x Oblivion Ring
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Moat

4x Orim's Chant
1x Abeyance
2x Privileged Position/Rebuff the Wicked
2x Isochron Scepter

SB:
3x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Ray of Distortion
2x Sacred Ground
2x Story Circle
1x Sacred Mesa
1x Decree of Justice
2x Privileged Position/Sterling Grove/Rebuff the Wicked
1x Rule of Law

Seems good all around.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I could accept everything else in the list, but

a) You shouldn't run 4 Tutors. You simply don't need that many and rarely want to cast the second.

b) Never, ever, ever, everever run less than 4 Tops. In early lists I did this for reasons that can only be described as stupidity. Run 4 Tops. Run 4 Tops. Run 4 Tops. There is never a game or a matchup where you do not want to draw and resolve Top. Run 4 Tops.

[Captain Hammer]

About three tutors, there are so many silver bullets here that it seems wrong not to play the max number of tutors so you can grab a combo piece or a moat or something at will.

As for 4 Top, why is top so good exactly. There is no Counterbalance, no fetchlands, and top is worthless in multiples. Without shuffle effects Top is a very weak card imo.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I will crawl through your computer screen by magic and devour your fucking soul if I ever hear you say anything bad about Top again.

You have six shuffle effects and Scrying Sheet, which is a drawing engine with Top in and of itself.

Your chances of victory dorp at least 5% every game you don't see Top. Top is the reason to play this deck. Without Top, this deck would be pure Tier 3.

It doesn't matter if it's dead in fucking multiples; you can shuffle the extra way. More importantly, you're much more likely to win by drawing the first.

Also, fun question;

How many silver bullets are there?

a) There's one. Moat. In your list, you have one Silver Bullet. Everything else is in multiples that you should have an easy time finding late game with Top, which you run 4 of.

Or you could not listen to the guy that's piloted this deck thousands of times.

[Captain Hammer]

I will crawl through your computer screen by magic and devour your fucking soul if I ever hear you say anything bad about Top again.



I don't believe in magic and my soul is in my penis so you're welcome to try to devour it all you want.

I only count 3 shuffle effects in your list, so where's the other three? Top works with Scrying Sheets, but Sheets works fine by itself too.

I do however count 7 silver bullets

3x Runed Halo
3x Oblivion Ring
1x Moat

along with 5 win conditions

2x Grindstone
2x Painter's Servant
1x Sacred Mesa

that Enlightened Tutor can grab you in a pinch, so that's way more than 1.

I'll take your word on the Top's and you're probably right about it, but since I'm going to play four, I'm probably going to throw in some fetchlands too, to combo with the Top some more.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

3 Eternal Dragon, 3 Enlightened Tutor.

If you add fetchlands, you make Scrying Sheets suck.

Listen. I've played this deck not a few times. You might want to just try taking my word on this, jah? There's room for new ideas, and then there's ignoring hundreds of hours of testing 'cuz.

[Captain Hammer]

Fine, when you're right you're right.

I leave the 4 Tops alone.

My one concern is, the deck has been okay against control. But it seems to be having problems with really fast and aggressive aggro decks. The deck simply doesn't play enough removal, so having to grab a wrath or moat is pretty much the best shot. And there's no guarentee that you can even survive long enough to cast them either.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah, that can be an issue. In this scenario, throw down everything you have in defense. Use Chant as a Fog. Use Servant as a blocker; or in this case, I guess, use Guilty Conscience as a bad Reciprocate.

If you think it'll be super relevant, you can add that new Pacifism that gets you 1 life a turn as a Tutor target.

[Sek'Kuar]

If you think it'll be super relevant, you can add that new Pacifism that gets you 1 life a turn as a Tutor target.

Recumbent Bliss? I actually really like Prison Term. The ability to change to a bigger threat later is always valuable. I cant count the times when I wished I hadn't pacified a certain creature because a turn later something bigger/stronger/more powerful came along. Plus it kills activated abilities.

[Captain Hammer]

I'm 90% sure faith fetter's is superior to either option.

Faith Fetters inactivates ANY permanent with an activation, from Survival, to Scepter, to Grindstone, to Top, to Disk, to other creatures with or without activations too. So it's pretty much never dead.

This flexibility (it's not just limited to creatures) plus the four point life gain makes it imo the best pacifism variant any deck could ask for.

[Illissius]

While it may be a better Pacifism effect, is it better as a tool against fast aggro which happens to be a Pacifism effect? It costs four mana, and, as you said, you don't necessarily live that long.

As for other options (besides simply playing more inexpensive removal), if the fast aggro decks giving you trouble share a color, perhaps a Circle of Protection in that color? It's ugly, but could be effective.

[Zach Tartell]

I'm 90% sure faith fetter's is superior to either option.

Faith Fetters inactivates ANY permanent with an activation, from Survival, to Scepter, to Grindstone, to Top, to Disk, to other creatures with or without activations too. So it's pretty much never dead.

This flexibility (it's not just limited to creatures) plus the four point life gain makes it imo the best pacifism variant any deck could ask for.

Wait, you're looking for an answer to super fast aggro and you find it in a 4-cost enchantment? Why not just run another Wrath, at that point?

Possible list of enchantments that can fix a single attacking creature:

Gelid Shackles
Costs 1
Requires a Snow mana up each turn to give him defender
Shuts off activated abilities

Hobble

Draws a card
Costs 3 (usually will dodge counterbalance)
Doesn't stop blocking (although we're usually swinging either with a hundred Pegasus tokens or a 5/5 flier, so that probably won't be an issue)

Kirtar's Desire

Costs 1.
No other real advantages

Pariah

Plays well with stuffy doll
Probably too cute.
Dodges Counterbalance?

Cage of Hands

Hard Pacifisim
Can be returned to hand to play again on another guy.
Costs 3, 2 to bounce.

Prison Term
It's like a Cage of Hands that can go on a bigger, scarier guy.
Can't be bounced in response to your own wrath, Deed, etc.
Recumbent Bliss

Gains life
Costs 3

[Tao]

How about Oblivion Ring? Nvm. you are running it already. And Runed Halo? Hmm, you run that, too. So maybe you don't need another tutorable spot removal, especially because Halo and O Ring seem way superior to Pacifisms.

If you play in a real aggro Meta you just need something for the case you get swarmed or burned. In case fear to get swarmed I'd go with Ghostly Prison and in case you fear the burn you can add a single Sphere of Law to your Story Circles.

[FoolofaTook]

Meekstone can be a decent silver bullet against a deck looking to resolve one or two big threats and do you that way with constant hand or land-based disruption as the covering fire. Team America's game plan is disrupted heavily by a 1cc artifact that turns Tombstalker off after one strike.

It does have the drawback that it won't stop Goblins or Elves or Merfolk (most of the time) from over-running you before you get up the mana to Moat or WoG.

[Captain Hammer]

Meekstone is a great idea. I will be trying Meekstone instead of something, maybe Eternal Dragon, since elves and goblins are the only threats Meekstone doesn't stop. Or maybe I'll try Ensnaring Bridge instead.

Also, I decided that I will be playing Mother of Runes in my Stuffy Doll build of the deck.

The card does serve as a great chumpblocker, and thus forces your opponent to either use up two removal spells to deal with it, or forces them to use up a removal spell and simulatonously prevents Goyf from hitting you for one turn.

Either way, that means you live longer and your opponent will have used up his StP effect already which means he has less ways to take out Stuffy Doll.

I think I will also up the Stuffy Doll count up to 4 for the same reason. It works great in the deck, even when it's not helping you combo off.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Eternal Dragon is an easy card to cut. Early on, it's a two mana plains + shuffle effect, which isn't too fantastic, and later on, all it does is recur for five mana to give you a seven mana 5/5 flyer. Hardly exciting.

That being said, it's almost always wrong to cut Eternal Dragon. Aside from StP, the card has no answer; and especially with Stuffy Doll, your cards are drawn elsewhere. It's not flashy and exciting, but it serves basic roles you want at every stage of the game. It single-handedly tilts the control mirror in your favor; control-on-control is often decided by recursion. Eternal Dragon is the best and most useful recursive card in the control-on-control card, and one of the few that produces direct and immediate card advantage; I've lost track of the number of games I've won in tournaments by getting a half dozen plains out of my library during a topdeck lull, and then going for the kill.

It's not flashy and exciting, but it supports the entire deck. It's like this I-Beam. You'd think you could just take out this I-Beam, install a disco ball, and the house would be much sexier, but no.

I admit I've been tinkering with the Stuffy-Conscience combo a bit myself;

18x SC Plains
4x Scrying Sheets

3x Eternal Dragon
3x Stuffy Doll
1x Sacred Mesa

3x Enlightened Tutor
4x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Guilty Conscience
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Runed Halo
3x Oblivion Ring
2x Wrath of God
1x Moat

4x Orim's Chant
2x Abeyance
2x Isochron Scepter

I upped both Doll and Conscience to a 3-of for the reason that both are usable as simple control elements, although neither is fantastic at that job.

[Captain Hammer]

I like that build a lot. I'll try running a carbon copy of it.

It never made too much sense to me as to why this deck would play Grindstone+Painter for the kill instead. Yes, that combo is easier to protect. But, both Grindstone and Painter are useless on their own. Why play dead cards in a control deck when you could play cards that are useful outside of comboing off?

That's a good point about Eternal Dragon. But it really sounds like it is a very mid-late game card.

Recursion can't really be usable before turn 8 or so. Given that, couldn't you easily get away with playing 2 Eternal Dragon rather than three? That could free up room for a full playset of Stuffy Dolls which really is a very strong control element on it's own (better than Guilty Conscience imo). Plus, you often lose your first Stuffy Doll to an StP if your opponent is competent and playing white. So having more copies of it is not a bad thing.

IBA, I really would love to see you try to remake Train Wreck for this meta as well.

Black has a lot more control tools in things like Innocent Blood, Edicts, Smallpoxes and what not which are fantastic now that most decks play 8-12 creatures total. Train Wreck was always great against aggro control already.

Plus, there is no reason why 3 Scrying Sheets + 18 Snow-covered Swamp + 3 Cabal Coffers can't be used. Hell, you could use that 3cc Pestilence that only works off of Snow mana as an alternative win condition.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Stuffy Doll is hella expensive. I really don't think you want to clutter up your hand with it early on, while cutting off a mana source. 3-of is plenty with Tutor + Top.

[georgjorge]

IF the recursion of Dragon wouldn't be important, Tithe would look like a great replacement.

[Tao]

I upped both Doll and Conscience to a 3-of for the reason that both are usable as simple control elements, although neither is fantastic at that job.

Doll can be pretty solid, even though it is expansive and loses against Swords. But you are overvaluing Guilty Conscience. It is not only "not fantastic", it just sucks as much as a card can suck.

It cannot deal with Utility creatures (Birds, Lackey, Warchief, Confidant, Merfolk Lords, Imperial Painter), Manlands, Mongoose and Tarmogoyf. And that are basically all creatures played in the format.

The only creatures it can kill makes Snuff Out look like it has no drawback: Doran, Tombstalker, Piledriver, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Countryside Crusher, Terravore, equipped Chalice Stompy Monsters (they also play SoLaS which makes it even worse). "Destroy target creature, deal 5 damage to you" is not what a control deck wants.

So imo you should just play the superior Painterstone Combo.


IF the recursion of Dragon wouldn't be important, Tithe would look like a great replacement.

Now that sounds solid. Imprinting Tithe into Scepter is possible, too, and there are matchups where this is no bad idea.

[snackfu]

I understand that Stuffy Doll/Guilty Conscience creates a loop of damage, but can someone explain exactly how it works to me? For some reason, I am not seeing it.

[Valtrix]

Guilty conscience says that when the enchanted creature deals damage, guilty conscience deals equal damage to that creature. So, when stuffy doll hurts a player, guilty conscience hits stuffy doll. Then because stuffy doll took damage, it in turn damages the player again. Thus the cycle is repeated.

I'm not sure how effective that combo is going to be...I've been looking for some horizons/belchers to trade for (since I'm cheap and the store by me is overpriced) so I can try that combo out. Has anybody done much testing with it? I like that horizons means that we get useful draws for the rest of the game, but I don't like the dysynergy with the snow engine...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Speed was really the only drawback to Horizons-Belcher. Well, that and them destroying the Horizons could be problematic. Definitely don't want to drop it too early on.

Speed might also be the nail in the coffin of Stuffy-Conscience. Grindstone-Servant forms a 6cc sorcery, 7cc with Chant, that says, "You win the game." At the best case, Stuffy-Conscience makes you wait until the next turn, and only one of the pieces is extremely useful by itself.

[snackfu]

Thanks for the quick reply.

I traded for the Endless Horizons and Charbelchers, with everyone around here hanging onto the Grindstones for dear life even though they never play them. However, I am missing some key cards for the deck in that I have no Orim's Chants and I don't have a Moat.

I do have 4 Abeyance, so that should help the problem. I think awhile back IBA suggested Story Circle as the best possible replacement, so I might try that out.

The Stuffy Doll/Guilty Conscience combo is one I am going to try out in a couple of weeks when I can next play.

[snackfu]

Now I see why I didn't get it. On Cardshark, the rules text says "combat damage" while the card itself just says "damage." That makes more sense.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The basic skeleton of the deck is the Scrying-Top draw engine, combined with E. Tutor and a Whit removal suite. However, the quality of the other parts affects the mileage you get out of the deck. Moat and Chants are expensive, but they win you a lot of games. I would be working towards upgrading the other components of the deck as soon as possible.

[pandabaer]

i dont like stuffy doll conscience because you need two turns to win because stuffy doll has no haste.
so swords or other fitting removal will stop you going off :)

just my 5 cent

[Captain Hammer]

Yes Stuffy Doll combo won't win till next turn.

But it has the advantage of not having you run completely useless and dead cards. Control decks don't typically like having 6 dead slots.

For a deck like this that draws through it's whole deck before winning, I think having to wait one more turn is more than made up for by not having to run any dead slots.

Stuffy Doll is a fantastic defensive card. And no, Guilty Concience while not as good as Swords, isn't useless either.

Out of all the fast aggressive threats that can race this deck, the one and only such threat that isn't neutered by Guilty Conscience is Goyf and shroud guys. Mystic Enforcer, Tombstalker, Pile Driver, all the other big dudes in the format can be "Snuffed Out" with Guilty Consciouness.

That's just my two cents.

[Tao]

The problem is, you can back up the Painterstone finish with Chant / Abeyance in the Control Mirror. They will have to counter every single Chant and Abeyance or lose instantly. So they will run out of counters eventually.
You can't do that with Stuffy-Conscience. That's an incredible difference in the Control mirror that may turn the matchup % from 60-40 to 40-60 or even more.

[Captain Hammer]

From what I learned playing the deck.

The main problem this deck seems to have is with fast aggro.

Guilty + Stuffy are both useful against aggro in a pinch. Guilty'ing an early Hypnotic Specter, Tombstalker or Ashenmoor have come in handy a lot in the aggro matchups, allowing me to save my StP for their Goyf. Plays like that helped me survive till turn 5, when I could rely on Stuffy to serve as an insurmountable wall for their biggest threat. And that's why I'm opting to go with those two.

[Jak]

What fast aggro? It sounds like you are talking about Sui Black. I don't understand how you can't handle the creatures with this much removal, Chant lock, and a fast combo finish, so I am thinking the discard is hurting you more than straight beatdown by some flying dudes. There are things to help this other than running a bad combo that comes in handy in narrow situations.