[Deck] RG Survival Advantage - Former DTB

[Mulletus]

I love playing this deck. One of the best parts about it, is that there is really no 'right build'. I make changes all the time, and that's fine. I have done pretty good with it (30th @ GP Philly, 1893 eternal rating) but it deffinately has some bad matchups. Meta games are the most important factors is the differences. My meta has a wide range of control and aggro decks, but little combo. That's prolly why I do so well. And I'm currently on a lil streak here, I have won 8 out of my last 11 tourneys. So I figured I'd share the list I'm running.

Land
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept heath
9 Forest
1 Mountain

Yes only 20!

Non-Creature
4 Survival of the Fittest (not foil)
4 Burning Wish
3 AEther Vial (not foil)

Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise (not foil)
4 Eternal Whitness
4 Flametongue Kavu
3 Wall of Blossums
3 Ravenous Baloth
2 Llanowar Elves
1 Anger
1 Blastoderm
1 Deranged hermit
1 Genesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Troll Ascetic
1 Yavimaya Elder

Sideboard
4 Pyroblast (not pimp)
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Spore Frog
1 Anarchy (not pimp)
1 Meltdown (not pimp)
1 Fireball
1 Pyroclasm
1 Ruination
1 Reverent Silence
1 Land Grant - people tend to scoop when I play this
1 Tsunami

[Brushwagg]

So this might be a really bad idea, but I'm new to the deck. I've been splashing white for Loxodon Hierarch. The like the fact he gives you the 4 life when he comes into play is good and his regen all your creatures is pretty good. Also with the White splash I think it can give you some more options in the board.

@Mulletus:I notice you play no artifact hate(creatures) in the main. Do you find this to be a problem??? I usally end up seeing your game 2 or 3.

[Mulletus]

I play game one very aggressively (sp?). The main deck wishes can get answers to artifacts in a pinch, but I try to race. Maybe I should put Zealot back in the main, since I tend to lose game one. There's really not many artifacts that I want to lose tempo to kill. I like the option to be able to kill them, but actually going thru with it takes an whole turn or more. By the time that works I should have killed my opponent like plan A dictates. If plan A doesn't work, theres tons of ways to play games two and three. Thats the brilliance and versatility of RGSA, 100 decks rolled into 60 cards.

[hungryboi]

Well fellas, I thought RGSA was unstoppable until I playtested against Ichorid yesterday. Bear in mind that I didn't sideboard. What ichorid does is play putrid imp or zombie infestation and gets rid of all dredge cards in their hand. Then it dredges like crazy and things such as cabal therapy, ichorid, deep analysis pop into the graveyard. with deep analysis, it dredges even more. Ive had situations where I've been killed turn 3. When I play my frog, usually he'll darkblast it. by the time I can establish control, he would have already had wonder and ichorids in his graveyard and fly over my men. Once in a while, Psychotog would make an appearance and kill me if he isnt dredged. I can see other decks beating this deck with humility, engineered plague, and tormod's crypt. but now a days, it seems my sideboard is too limited to run an efficient amount of tormod's crypt.

[Brushwagg]

Do you run Vial?? I would get Genesis in the yard ASAP keep Vial at 1 and just play Frog when attacks are declared or in respone to Therapy. Even if the Frog is popped before combat the damage is still prevented. Also if this deck is in your meta and the match-up is that bad I would be boarding 4x Crypt no if ands or buts.

[bigredmeanie]

Sharpshooter and Jitte also go a long way in the battle against Ichorid. The good news is that Ichorid isnt that great of a deck.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I also have to agree with bigredmeanie... lucky for you RGSA players out there, Ichorid doesn't see alot of play. For now, you can continue to breathe easy, but that might change. Warning to RGSA players, Zach Fine might be whipping out Ichorid soon. And Zach is savage.

[hungryboi]

Darkblast kill sharpshooter. When 2-4 flying ichorids are coming at you at turn 3-4, usually I find myself very screwed. I have not playtested against ichorid extensively. I also dont have vials in my deck. The problem is that I would need vial, sporefrog, and genesis in my graveyard to lock down. that would require a good amount of turns and/or luck to draw what I need. I guess the only thing to do is graveyard hate because it's practically impossible to disrupt my opponent with anything else.

[Al-ucard]

If you have Enlightened Tutor, you can fetch for tormod, worship or another good enchantment card against any meta deck... Oh, and you have to test vial in this deck, is surprisingly awesome!

[Tao]

Loaming Shaman
2G (3), Creature - Centaur Shaman 3/2
When Loaming Shaman comes into play, target player shuffles any number of target cards from his or her graveyard into his or her library.

It has P/T of Troll Ascetic and is really great against Ichorid and Threshold.

[Brushwagg]

Loaming Shaman
2G (3), Creature - Centaur Shaman 3/2
When Loaming Shaman comes into play, target player shuffles any number of target cards from his or her graveyard into his or her library.

Don't take this the wrong way but, wouldn't/couldn't the player just choose 0? Now if it was something like Withered Wretch then it would almost be an auto include.

[Tao]

Don't take this the wrong way but, wouldn't/couldn't the player just choose 0? Now if it was something like Withered Wretch then it would almost be an auto include.

I am right. It works perfectly fine. You are the controller of Shaman which means that you can do with their graveyard whatever you want. This is obviously extremely strong vs. Yard based decks like Life from the Loam, Gro, Tog or Ichorid. But it is also quite nice against some decks just to shuffle back all their used Fetchlands, Dazes, Rituals, Duresses or Birds.

Considering the 3/2 body I think that he should be at least a 1-off in all Survival based decks.

[Caligula Superfly]

Are you sure? I think that since the "target player" part comes first, then it is that player that gets to determine any variables that come after it as part of the effect. Think about similar wordings...

"Target player sacrifices a creature"

"Target player discards a card"

In both of these circumstances, it is the "target player" that gets to choose which card or creature. If the text were "shuffle any number of cards in target players graveyard into his or her library", then you would get to choose, but as it stands I think its up to the "target player" to decide which cards and how many.

[Lego]

It says target player shuffles any number of target cards into his or her library. That means that you target the player and the cards, and they have to shuffle whatever cards you target. It works the way that Tao wants it to. It's a 3/2 for 3 that can shuffle any problem cards back into a player's library (or in Threshold's case, shuffle them all back.)

[hungryboi]

Bingo. That would work very nicely vs ichorid. I will definitely playtest vial and see it in action.

[Brushwagg]

I totally mis-read that. Might be a nice little tool for the SB. Could see main deck play if there is alot of Gro in your meta.

@Hungryboi:Vial is really good. I'm surprised you haven't tested yet.

I played the deck in our tourney today and I'm really liking it. I did make some play mistakes, nothing that cost me a game or anything but mistakes non the less. I still ended up 3-0 and splitting prizes with Mulletus(3-0). So I have a question, has anyone else tested Loxodon Hierarch??

[Al-ucard]

I totally mis-read that. Might be a nice little tool for the SB. Could see main deck play if there is alot of Gro in your meta.

@Hungryboi:Vial is really good. I'm surprised you haven't tested yet.

I played the deck in our tourney today and I'm really liking it. I did make some play mistakes, nothing that cost me a game or anything but mistakes non the less. I still ended up 3-0 and splitting prizes with Mulletus(3-0). So I have a question, has anyone else tested Loxodon Hierarch??

Yes, I've played a little bit with a RGSA with white and I put Hierarchs and Angels. Yes, hierarch is better becase you don't have to sac them for the life, but I prefer Ravenous since them sac themselves for free, and this is so important with so many StP in meta...

[BullBar]

I too can vouch for the Hierachs. I'm in quite an aggro meta, and getting the life while still enjoying a 4/4 on the board is often miles better than Baloth. The single Angel was too good to pass up too.
I've been liking a couple of Gaea's Cradles in the deck. Thoughts?

[bigredmeanie]

If anything Heirarch is only slightly better than Baloth, and Exalted is expensive. Is it worth the weakening of your mana base?

[Brushwagg]

I don't run Angel at all. However I do run both Baloth and Pope, 2 of each. There both 4/4 with life gaining, plus I like the fact that Pope can regen all your creatures if need be.

[bigredmeanie]

Mana base issues to run Pope?

I like the idea of Angel because it flies but would never run it in a suvival deck because of it's WW cost. If the ever print a decent green or red flier that does something useful I'm sure I'll have it in my list.

[Kadishack]

Loaming Shaman
2G (3), Creature - Centaur Shaman 3/2
When Loaming Shaman comes into play, target player shuffles any number of target cards from his or her graveyard into his or her library.

It has P/T of Troll Ascetic and is really great against Ichorid and Threshold.

Also it has great synergy in the Solidarity matchup. In response to the final draw spell, umm... vial out Loaming Shaman. LOL. good stuff. That could be pretty decent.

[parallax]

Also it has great synergy in the Solidarity matchup. In response to the final draw spell, umm... vial out Loaming Shaman. LOL. good stuff. That could be pretty decent.
Only if you have Vial at three, Survival in play or Shaman in hand, and only if Solidarity doesn't have any extra Brain Freezes, Remands, Cunning Wishes or draw spells in hand when they kill you. In other words, not likely. Loaming Shaman is also not needed against Thresh. That match-up is already ridiculously lopsided in our favor. If Ichorid or any other graveyard-based decks that are bad match-ups become popular, then I would add a Shaman.

I don't believe Loxodon Hierarch is good enough to justify a white splash. He's better than Baloth, obv, but not much better. White doesn't allow this deck to do anything it can't already do, it just lets the deck do a few things slightly better. I would splash black long before I would consider white. Or blue for that matter. black >>> blue > white.

[CynicalSquirrel]

I actually love Loaming Shaman in this deck. In addition to further helping the Gro and Friggord and random Loam decks matchup, he's also a solid 3/2 body. The other bonus for Shaman is that late game he can be used as almost a super Eternal Witness to shuffle dead creatures back in your library, then Survival for them again. I think it has a lot of potential as a 1 of in the main deck.

[Brushwagg]

Mana base issues to run Pope?

As of yet no. I play 1x Savanah(sp??) and 2 Plains, BOP, and Vials. The only problem I really have is there wasn't enoungh MD room for more then 1 FTK, the rest are in the board. I could probably cut the Wall of Blossoms, and move the Artifact hate creatures to the board to fit them in the main.

[bigredmeanie]

PLAINS!!! That's terrible. I feel bad for running a basic mountain, but I do it so that it's easier to maintain haste, but a plains doesnt tap for green Sir.

You can cut Wall before Tin Street/sex monkey

[hungryboi]

I see that the deck is steering to a completely different direction. People are making some big changes. The issue still remains that through these changes, we haven't improved much against the combo problem and the changes so far only seem to help RGSA by improving the matchups against decks we can already beat. I suggest including a Gaea's Blessing into the sideboard against solidarity.

[bigredmeanie]

hungryboy, your post was almost insightful, then you suggested something that has proven itself not to be enough. Though I agree that most people are suggesting changes that don't improve many, if any matchups.

The only thing Blessing could do is if you included one MD, and didn't draw it against solidarity, then you MIGHT catch them off guard g1 and win because they're probably going to skip 3 turns.

I steered my deck in a completely different direction about 2 months ago, and have created a monster, but those changes are for me to know and for you to figure out on your own.

Lets talk about the goblins match first. The problem this deck has with goblins is that it's just to slow. FTK and Baloth are slow and only block 1 guy. By the time they come down goblins usually has 5 guys or more and we're forced to trade against Piledrivers just to get another turn. what can we do to GREATLY improve the goblins matchup?

[BullBar]

I'm having success vs gobbos - in play (not much testing). Mine's a Pope/Vial job. I've squeezed a couple of Spike Feeders in for when Vial's on 3, and Pope is swinging the match far more than Baloth ever did. A maindeck Masticore in a FTK slot, with Gaea's Cradle/Rofellos powerup also solves Gobbos nicely - this has won me a few.
I also run a Goblin Pyromancer on the side, this has been most amusing.

[MasterBlaster]

Lets talk about the goblins match first. The problem this deck has with goblins is that it's just to slow. FTK and Baloth are slow and only block 1 guy. By the time they come down goblins usually has 5 guys or more and we're forced to trade against Piledrivers just to get another turn. what can we do to GREATLY improve the goblins matchup?
I did some searching to try and find some cards that can completely whipeout Goblins' side of the board.
What I found was:
Bloodfire Kavu
Magma Giant
Shard Phoenix
Thunder Dragon
I'm not familiar with RG Survival so I can't really say if these creatures are playable or not in this deck as a 1-of. I just thought I'd throw out some ideas.

[bigredmeanie]

bullbar how many Cradles are your running?

[BullBar]

Only 2. Love to squeeze a 3rd in, and often wish I could justify Crop Rotation (I can't). My meta is light-ish on nonbasic hate, so the W splash made sense.

[Brushwagg]

If your worried about the Joblins match-up then cut 1 forest for 1 Bayou, or something like that, and put Engineered Plague in the board. This could also help the Solidarity match by putting Cabal Therapy in the baord too. But if you want to keep your deck R/G then Pyroclasm is a must. Game 1 it can be wished for and brought back multiple times with Witness tricks. Solidarity you can go for Boiling Seas/Tsunami and REB. Both can be difficult but are still winable.

[Mulletus]

So are you sure that the shaman lets me put any number of cards from aan opponents yard to their library? It seems to me it would be their choice, but idk.

[Tao]

So are you sure that the shaman lets me put any number of cards from aan opponents yard to their library? It seems to me it would be their choice, but idk.


"From the Official Wizards Dissension FAQ:

Loaming Shaman
* Loaming Shaman's controller chooses all the targets when the ability is put on the stack."


Yes. It works. Yes. It is great creature. Yes, you should play at least one of them in your maindeck.

[bigredmeanie]

Yes. It works. Yes. It is great creature. Yes, you should play at least one of them in your maindeck.

It does work the way you want it to, but I'm not sure this deck needs one in the main. The only matchups this really helps in are the mirror, and gro. It's kind of slow and largly insignificant against decks like Iggy, so I'm not sure it warrents a main deck slot.

[FallenOmnipotent]

I haven't sifted through all the many pages yet but I'm just gonna throw out a few quick questions.

Foremost, why did this deck lose it's DTB title? Has burning wishes been established as a good card in the Deck (cause I know it's contraversial in other decks)? And lastly, if your meta-game did have alot of wastelands (among other sinkholes, vindicates, etc.), should you indeed run crop rotation + cradle?

[Vardaman]

Burning Wish is insane in this deck since it solves many of the deck's problems. It also helps to have more answers to pithing needle.

I don't know about Crop Rotation or Cradle though.

[bigredmeanie]

Seems to me that Crop Rotation -> Cradle would weaken the mana base not strengthen it. Mostly because it's land disadvantage when they aren't targeting your land.

Though why would you need that. This deck has a solid mana base, easily getting around mana denial strategies. Deadguy is a positive matchup.

As for Burning Wish it depends on your meta. The only match it helps in is Rifter and Goblins. It helps to keep your head above water against Rifter when they get Humility online, and beats the swarms back against goblins. I've cut most of the utility cards from my wish board.

@ Pithing Needle: who cares! as long as your non-Survival plan is solid and consistant Needle is inefective.

I think it's funny how people's plan against Survival is Needle and that will be enough. My experience has shown there is little to nothing that is truely effective against RGSA.

As to the reason RGSA lost its DTB status, it's because it has been dismissed as a threat in people's minds in addition to the fact that not many people are playing it.

[Vardaman]

Seems to me that Crop Rotation -> Cradle would weaken the mana base not strengthen it. Mostly because it's land disadvantage when they aren't targeting your land.

Though why would you need that. This deck has a solid mana base, easily getting around mana denial strategies. Deadguy is a positive matchup.

As for Burning Wish it depends on your meta. The only match it helps in is Rifter and Goblins. It helps to keep your head above water against Rifter when they get Humility online, and beats the swarms back against goblins. I've cut most of the utility cards from my wish board.

@ Pithing Needle: who cares! as long as your non-Survival plan is solid and consistant Needle is inefective.

I think it's funny how people's plan against Survival is Needle and that will be enough. My experience has shown there is little to nothing that is truely effective against RGSA.

As to the reason RGSA lost its DTB status, it's because it has been dismissed as a threat in people's minds in addition to the fact that not many people are playing it.

The Deadguy matchup isn't horrible but I wouldn't call it much better than 50/50. A decent hand from them is hard to recover from. FTK kills all their threats but it does nothing if you can't reach 4 mana before they pluck it from your hand. Perish and Withered Wretch don't help either.

I find that Burning Wish is great in almost all match-ups. I'm rarely unhappy to draw one. It's almost too slow vs. Goblins. It's great vs. Angel Stompy since Anarchy is you only non-jitte out vs. Silver Knight and E. Angel.

Killing a Needle on Survival is great if games go long. You don't need Survival to win but it certainly helps.

[Lego]

My experience has shown there is little to nothing that is truely effective against RGSA.

This is one of the most hyperbolic statements I've seen here in a long time, and that's saying a lot, considering the people we have posting (yours truly included.) I've never lost a tournament match versus RGSA while playing Angel Stompy. I've never lost a tournament match while playing Solidarity versus RGSA. Heck, I had a positive matchup versus RGSA back when I was still playing U/G Madness. Many of the most popular decks in the format have significant advantages over RGSA, and many of the less popular ones do as well. Most combo decks simply smash you into the ground. But if you don't include all the decks that beat RGSA, well then yeah, RGSA is king.

[AnwarA101]

If you aren't convinced RGSA has problems, I beat it with Iggy Pop on turn like 6 because my opponent (QuickSilver) was unable to kill me fast enough. RGSA is quite bad against combo decks and you if aren't convinced of that then you probably haven't played against combo decks at all.

[FallenOmnipotent]

What do you guys think of 1x Goblin Pyromacer in SB vs. Gobs? I know it's slow, but the RGSA does play 6-8 1cc mana accel (i.e. BoP, Elves). Later in the game, you can keep them locked down with Genisis.

Also, I remeber spore frog use to be quite a star, what ever happened to him? Sorry, I haven't played in a while and am trying to play catch-up now.

Then lastly, if i could just get a few opinions on wether one would play RGSA in my meta:
he Rock (GB)
The Rock (GBW)
Iggy Pop
Deadguy Ale
Deadguy Ale
Rifter
Rifter
Rifter
Mono Red Goblins
Solidarity

[parallax]

Pyromancer is too slow and vulnerable to run against Goblins. I prefer one Gempalm Incinerator in the main to deal with Goblins. Recurring him with Eternal Witness or Genesis is usually enough. Also, make sure you're playing with Burning Wishes. Then you can grab Pyroclasm.

That's a great metagame for RGSA, except you cannot beat IGGy Pop or Solidarity. I couldn't beat Solidarity even after boarding 4 x Chalice of the Void and 4 x Trinisphere.

[Vardaman]

Shard Pheonix seems more reliable than Pyromancer.

Spore frog sucks against any decent deck.

All of those non-combo match-ups are ok but not stellar.

[Helgaborg]

And how to beat Rifter with four Tormonds Crypt post sideboard? I play a wonderful deck close to parallax first burning wish-deck posted in this forum. And it works well in my meta... Of course, I loose to Solidarity too...

[bigredmeanie]

There is not a lot of combo in my meta, so I don't have to play against many of them. I'll concede that RGSA has a weak Combo matchup, but as for Angel Stompy, it's not considered a DTB any more, and doesn't see much play. Besides Troll, Jitte, and Baloth all are bigger than you, and Wish for Hull breach or Flashfires usually wins the game. At least when I play them, and I just beat an Angel Stompy player in the last tournament I went to.

My statement shouldn't be used in past context's anyway. I was refering to the current modern meta, not before when there was no meta, or before the B&R split. If there is not a lot of Combo in your meta, than it can be tooled to be competitive there.


@ Tormod's crypt. Don't use the GY?, play Basking Rootwalla. That's what I do. If Squee is the only card in your yard they won't want to pop Crypt until they draw another. As for Humility, Jitte keeps your creature big until your next turn when you BWish for Hull Breach to kill their Humility AND their Crypt. I also board a few Naturalize. It's a close but positive matchup.

@ Solidarity In testing we played 10 games post SB where all I boarded is 4 Chalice, and I won 7. the games I lost are because he had the FOW. every other game I mulled until i had 1, sometimes down to 5. In games when it was in the opening 7 it was even better. Derranged Hermit helps to race. It's the most efficient beater against a deck like Solidarity, Dealing 9 per swing.

Honestly guys even with the 1 or 2 combo decks at EVERY event I go to, I don't remember the last tournament I didn't win with this deck. If there are more than 1 or 2 combo decks, Id just play gro, and teach them why they shouldnt play combo.

[FallenOmnipotent]

Jitte keeps your creature big until your next turn
Does that mean you can pump your creature when humility is in play? Doesn't humility make it so even after you pump, it goes back to being a 1/1? Does this work with Sword of Fire and Ice too then?

[quicksilver]

Does that mean you can pump your creature when humility is in play? Doesn't humility make it so even after you pump, it goes back to being a 1/1? Does this work with Sword of Fire and Ice too then?

Humility takes effect in layer 6b, and all other pump effects take place in layers after 6b so they will always be expressed, regarless of time stamps even. So SoFI will always give +2/+2 and jitte will always be able to pump.

[tivadar]

There is not a lot of combo in my meta, so I don't have to play against many of them. I'll concede that RGSA has a weak Combo matchup, but as for Angel Stompy, it's not considered a DTB any more, and doesn't see much play. Besides Troll, Jitte, and Baloth all are bigger than you, and Wish for Hull breach or Flashfires usually wins the game. At least when I play them, and I just beat an Angel Stompy player in the last tournament I went to.

Angel Stompy may not be DTB, but it held 2 of the top 8 at the duel for duals out in NY, that's a significant portion, and at least in my meta still sees reasonable play. Troll is not bigger than us, knight beats troll quite easily, and angel evades both troll and baloth. Did the AS build you were facing run pithings in the board? My experience is that game 1 against RGSA tends to go about 50/50 based on whether I get an active angel, or an equipped creature swinging, and the actual build I'm facing. Game 2 and 3 tend to be very much in my favor because pithing shuts down whatever card advantage you may have. NTM crypt nails your graveyard.

[bigredmeanie]

Angel Stompy may not be DTB, but it held 2 of the top 8 at the duel for duals out in NY, that's a significant portion, and at least in my meta still sees reasonable play. Troll is not bigger than us, knight beats troll quite easily, and angel evades both troll and baloth. Did the AS build you were facing run pithings in the board? My experience is that game 1 against RGSA tends to go about 50/50 based on whether I get an active angel, or an equipped creature swinging, and the actual build I'm facing. Game 2 and 3 tend to be very much in my favor because pithing shuts down whatever card advantage you may have. NTM crypt nails your graveyard.


I don't recall him boarding Needle, but he did board Crypt. Naturalize is better than your entire deck. The more RGSA runs the better they will do against Angel Stompy. Not only does it kill Needle, Crypt and equipment, it neutralizes one of your forms of removal. Also Basking Rootwalla > Silver Knight. Basking Rootwalla + Jitte > Angel Stompy. Gonna Swords my Rootwalla? I've probably won already.

But I digress this conversation isn't going anywhere. If someone wants to play RGSA in an environment where Angel Stompy is prevelent they should just run a few creatures with a toughness of at least 3, and splash black for Bone Shredder or Nekrattal.

[tivadar]

I don't recall him boarding Needle, but he did board Crypt. Naturalize is better than your entire deck. The more RGSA runs the better they will do against Angel Stompy. Not only does it kill Needle, Crypt and equipment, it neutralizes one of your forms of removal. Also Basking Rootwalla > Silver Knight. Basking Rootwalla + Jitte > Angel Stompy. Gonna Swords my Rootwalla? I've probably won already.

But I digress this conversation isn't going anywhere. If someone wants to play RGSA in an environment where Angel Stompy is prevelent they should just run a few creatures with a toughness of at least 3, and splash black for Bone Shredder or Nekrattal.

Umm, since when does RGSA run rootwala? Perhaps you do, but that's pretty far from the standard from what I see. Also, you forget that we run jittes as well as you, and on top of that, we get them out before you because we accelerate them. You have naturalize, we have disenchant. FTK is awesome on unmorphed creatures, but 8 of our creatures have pro-red, and Sofi+Mom makes things even worse. Naturalize doesn't work on crypt unless your opponent is an idiot (they won't play crypt until they plan on using it).

But anyways, you're correct, we're not going to get anywhere arguing this point. And actually, if you'd care to playtest, feel free to PM me. Always enjoy playing against good decks out there, and it's been a while since I've played against RGSA.

How does black splash actually work here out of curiosity?

[bigredmeanie]

Black splash is easy enough.


-2 Forest
-1 FTK

+2 Bayou
+1 Bone Shredder

sb
+1 Cranial Extraction/Haunting Echoes

That gives is the oppertunity to let it die due to not paying echo, and return it the turn after with Genesis.

[Brushwagg]

Actually Rootwalla is really good. Pay one Green to put a creature into play then go tutor for one. Also not to mention they can chain together quite easy.

[bigredmeanie]

2 or 3 is the right number. Depends on how much you need them. If there is a lot of goblins in your meta, I'd run 3, but if there is a lot of Gro in your meta Id run 2. Just depends on what you need them to do.

[lolosoon]

Ok, RGSA can run -quite- a lot of silverbullet but I always wonder if there's a real mana core to that deck.

Beside the 20 lands, I can see (copy/paste from several topics and posts) for now 2-3 package choices :

Package #1 : the 1cc drops
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Llanowar Elves
(1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary)

With this configuration you have mana for 2nd turn Survival + Activation and responses to 1st turn lackey.
But with all the cheap removal maindecked in most decks (StP, L.bolt, Darkblast, Funeral Charm...) your li'l critters won't last long and you've lost the so-wanted tempo advantage.


Package #2 : the versatile mana
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
(1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary)

A bunch of chumpblockers but they will bring smoothness to your manabase (especially if you run the controversal White Splash).
They're both "burnable" but alas the Elder will bring you a not-so-disruptive mana source and with the 4-6 fetchlands run it will thin your deck more.
But for 1G by turn 2 shouldn't you be casting SotF ?


Package #3 : the burn-resilient sources
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3-4 Chrome Mox
0-1 Land Grant

Ok, this choice is odd when you're playing RGSA(dvantage) 'cause they're card disadvantage. But with those alternative mana sources your deck gain a lot of speed.
As for package #1 they assure you an active SotF by turn 2 but they're not as disruptive as the 1 toughness guys.
But when the engine is on, you can't discard a mox to Survival.


So, is there all the effective choices we have ? (beside some mix among those 3 package)

I hope not.

What about Tinder Wall ? 1st turn drop, lackey (Isamaru/Lion/Zombie) hoser, x/2 critter killer, and he don't die to Fire//Ice or early recycled Gempalm Incinerator.

Plus, if you don't draw into a SotF, you can always walk the aggressive way with 2nd turn Baloth/Kavu (or Blastoderm or Hierarch etc...).

I'm not sure of this choice though, I'm always afraid of "cool plays" behavior (I was even trying to add a sole Orcish Lumberjack !!) but I'm testing it and it works okay for now :

Package #4 : all or nothing
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall

Thoughts ?!

[bigredmeanie]

Go for consistancy.

I run the best of all of them:

A 4/3 split of Elves and Birds, plus 1 Sakura Tribe Elder.

1. As stated they are creatures, and can be pitched to Survival anytime. I also never feel like they are dead, as Bop can fly, and when my Jitte has a lot of counters on it I can usually fly over FTW. STE gets a forest/mountain when I have Survival and no lands.

2. It's the most consistant.

3. They are easily expendable. If your opponent wants to essentially waste a removal spell on a turn 1 Bird go ahead. It doesn't really slow RGSA down that much.

4. Mostly because they are the cheapest, easiest, and most consistant way to get what you want. They are reusable, recyclable, don't cost CA, and can often get that last point or so of damage when needed.

[Helgaborg]

Ok, I haven't played magic for a while; last time I were playing my meta was Solidarity and Vial Goblin. Today it's Rifter, Angel Stompy and Iggy pop. Anyone who can post a updated decklist? Maybe Quicksilver?

[quicksilver]

There really hasn't been anything new. Loaming shaman is pretty good against threshold or most other decks that use the graveyard which those don't do very much. Indrik Stomphowler is a pretty good guy, but a little expensive and doens't kill humility. If your meta is Rifter, Angel Stompy and Iggy pop, more naturalizes would seem to be fine. They are amazing against rifter. Important in killing angel stompies equipment, and ok against iggy pop since it can take out leyline or perhaps any artifact mana.

[Helgaborg]

Ok, thanks. Are we using equiptment these days? I'm still using a deck similar to your (Quicksilver) first posted burning wish verison, pages away! Is black into the deck?

[quicksilver]

Ok, thanks. Are we using equiptment these days? I'm still using a deck similar to your (Quicksilver) first posted burning wish verison, pages away! Is black into the deck?

I haven't used equipment in a very long time. And if you feel that black is strong enough in your meta (lots of combo) you can run it, but it does hurt the agro matchup.

[AngryTroll]

Sadly, I did not see very much in Coldsnap to add to RGSA.

The red Martyr of Ashes almost seems like it could be boarded for Goblins, but is there enough Red in the deck to support it? And it lacks the surprise a Pyroclasm could provide.

Ohran Viper sounds great, but it takes the deck in an even more controlling route. I could see it being tested in the version with Wall of Roots and the black splash (that is still around, right?), but not in the current build. Am I wrong?

There is a Yeti that wants to be FTK, but is not. I am impressed with it for Type 2, but not for RGSA.

Other then that, there were several cards that could be put in the deck, but more for fun then for serious work on the deck. Rimescale Dragon, Panglacial Wurm, and Arctic Nishoba could all be run in a metagame slot, but I think you are metagaming for yourself at that point.....

[Boogy_Boy]

Actually, Wilderness Elemental looks interesting. Too bad everone and their mom only play basic land now. It could be some good vs Thresh.

[quicksilver]

Actually, Wilderness Elemental looks interesting. Too bad everone and their mom only play basic land now. It could be some good vs Thresh.

This seems rather underpowered. Not only is it practically dead against some decks it's not even very good against thresh since at very best it can 1 for 1 them. Just about any card in their deck can handle it easily, and thresh player would not have much problem sitting on only two non-basic lands making it not even capeable of one for oneing. Heck they could even bounce a land with daze as a combat trick making you think your guy will trade with a goose.


Edit:
Here is the list I ran at the D4D. Sorry I forgot to post it earlier. It runs the black splash to greatly improve the match up with solidarity while slightly to moderatly improving other match ups. The black splash hurts the goblin match but you can help negate that with engineered plague.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?alt_format=vin&DeckID=18000

The deck got me 37th day one going 3/4 and losing to some favorable match ups due to some bad draws (which the black splash makes happen more often). Day 2 I went 4/2 coming in 14th with my deck preforming signifigantly more consistant.

Day 1 (in order, I think)
Beserk Affinity (2-0) (Wasn't running seeds of innocence which would have been great with all the B.Wishes I drew)
Dead Guy (1-2) (drawing 10 mana sources in your first 10 turns seemed hot against land destruction, unfortunatly he did not destroy any of my lands for those first 10 turns, nor did he make me discard or attack me. I just lost this game while just happening to be playing against dead guy due to not drawing non-mana sources the whole game despite my ample amount of time to do so)
Iggy Pop(0-2)(sadly discard does nothing to their combo)
Solidarity(2-0)(He hadn't slept much if at all)
Stompy(1-2)(I was already out of top 8 so I kept a spicy but terrible hand)
Thresh(2-1)(I won first game from him being late and almost got the match for his tardiness. These games were so pathetic as we both drew utterly attrociously both game)
Burn(0-2)(I went down to two baloths knowing the only match up that would be significantly affected by this was burn, but who the hell plays burn. I guess that is what I get for not winning more rounds)

Day 2 (same list)
Dead guy(2-0)
Angel stompy(1-2) (He gets jitte like 2-4th turn every game despite me duressing him first turn every game, also I never draw a survival)
Angel stompy(2-0)(Well he also gets a jitte every game, however I actually draw survival and survival>jitte)
Goblins(0-2)(Game one I was pyroclasming every turn, but then after I clasm away his creatures he still manages to get 14 hasted power next turn while removing my witness as a blocker. Game two he removed 3 of my mana sources turn two, and I was stuck on very low mana the whole game. Also my first survival activation showed my top two cards as both plagues when I was sitting on 1 forest, 1 elf, and 1 bayou)
Beserk Affinity(2-0) (Same guy as day one)
Reanimator(2-1)(This was probably my worst match up of both days but I still managed to pull though thanks to mesmeric fiend removing creatures from the game instead of discarding)

[Peter_Rotten]

Ok, I have a rather silly idea that can likely be dismissed - but, who knows, it may pan out. Could we mess with four cards in the deck to add a combo kill to RGbSA? Maybe fit one Recurring Nightmare, one Great Whale (or Palinchron), one Rector (requires mana base tweak), and one kill card (maybe Shivan Hellkite or Stroke). If the tweak was minimal, we could keep RGbSA's versatility but add one turn kill.

Silly, I know, but it could pan out even though it is likley unneeded.

[quicksilver]

You could add one wirewood symbiote and one kiki-jiki. All you would need is survival to set up that one turn infinate combo kill.

[parallax]

I've considered that. The problem is, it only works if you resolve Survival in the first place, and it isn't fast enough to race combo anyway.

BTW, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker; Wirewood Symbiote; and Goblin Sharpshooter are a combo and are all somewhat useful on their own.

[quicksilver]

You don't need the sharpshooter for the combo. You will need haste to keep getting mana out of the elf you bounce so you can keep replaying him. And with haste you can just attack with infinite wirewood sybiote tokens.

[SMR0079]

I have recently switched from RGSA/b to a true RecurSur combo build and the results have been promising. It was hard letting go of Red/Anger but it was neccassary in order to take the deck in a new direction.

Here's how the combo works:

You need Survival and Recurring Nightmare on boardwith 4 lands. Then Survival Palincron and Kukusho into the yard playing Priest of Gix. The Priest gives you 3 black mana when it comes into play, sac the Preist to Recurring Nightmare, bringing Palincron into play untapping your lands. Use the 3 black floating to replay RN. Basically you generate infinte mana and are able to switch targets to Kukusho. Kukusho is nice b/c. he gets around Solitary Confinement, while Trike does not. There are quite a few different combinations of creatures that will work with RecurSur, I'm not sure if this is the best as they all have trade offs.

The deck goldfishes on turn 4 but since the combo is suceptible to disruption it's better to slow roll it with Therapy/Duress and Witness recursion. After playing this build for awhile now I have come to the conclusion that black serves you much more than red ever did. It improves your combo/Control matchup with the Disruption package and it enables the combo against aggro.

While I have taken the deck more toward combo you could still retain much of the decks core with the added combo as was done with these successful lists:

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=15231

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=16914

I would like to hear peoples thoughts on what the role of Recurring Nightmare should be to Survival. I have found that by going the combo route you force the opponent to stop their game plan and deal with you or die. The combo basically lets you switch roles more effectivly and start being the beatdown.



Here is what I have at the moment:

RecurSur

4 Survival
3 Recurring Nightmare
3 E. Tutor
1 S. Top

4 C. Therapy
2 Duress
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Sex Monkey
1 Boneshredder
3 Eternal Witness
1 R. Baloth/Loxadon Heiarch
4 Wall of Blossoms

1 Squee
1 Genesis
1 A. Rector
1 Palinchron
1 Preist of Gix
1 Kukusho

4 BoPs
2 STE

1 Gaea's Craddle
6 Fetch
4 Bayou
2 Savannah
6 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains

SB
E.Plague x4
Duress

TOOL BOX

T. Crypt
P. Needle
Null Rod
Rule of Law
Sphere of Law
P. Deed
Blazing Archon
Stomphowler
Jotun Grunt
Troll Ascetic


The SB is very customizable with the Tool Box option providing numerous answers.


Critique away!

Sean

[dre4m]

Well, first of all, this decklist is definately not RGSA, and probably deserves its own thread. In fact, I would call it GBScD, for Green/Black Survival combo Disadvantage, because the mark of a good Survival deck is how well it does without Survival, and this one would be all but helpless. Not having blue in your deck takes away a great deal of advantage that the original Recurring Palinchron deck had, such as Intuition, Gifts, Brainstorm, Impulse, Careful Study, or any number of other outlets to get Palinchron into your graveyard. I believe that your four therapy and two duress will be insufficient to protect your combo before you get your face smashed in.

[Iranon]

If you run combo in Survival, Kiki-Jiki + Sky Hussar (possibly + Karmic Guide) is probably the best you can do. All are quite useful in their own right and their only drawback is that you need to run an ugly manabase.

Running a combo that requires non-beatdown non-mana cards would water down the deck concept too much. It would almost force you to include some protection (Duress, Cabal Therapy, Mesmeric Fiend, Mother of Runes, Meddling Mage, Force of Will, Dosan... I personally run 4 Meddling Mage, 4 Mothers), after which your deck bears little resemblance to classic RGSA.

Moreover, if you have the capability for an instant win, why should you run all that midgame goodness that might not save you from a good aggro or true combo deck in time and that is strictly unnecessary when the game goes the way you want it to? Either a heavy control approach (a good part of what I suggested above) or a horde of low-cc creatures would be preferable.

If you want to include a combo, Mana Elves + Wirewood Symbiote + Kiki-Jiki fits the bill; it forces you to run more fragile mana acceleration than you'd usually do but it only costs you 1 true slot and Kiki isn't bad in the deck anyway. Furthermore, it doesn't require branching out colour-wise so your mana base remains solid.

[SMR0079]

Your probally right, the deck is different enough to warrant it's own thread. I just wanted to illustrate another direction you can go with Survival.

The concept came about after seeing the two deck lists that had Recurring Nightmare in them. I had played RGSA for some time and was fairly unimpressed with it. The most recent T8s , in fact the only T8s at major events were with decks that splashed black and also had Recurring Nightmare. While I'm not 100% sold on the combo version I posted, I would no longer play any Survival deck in our current metagame without black.

Outside of RN, The Therapy/Duress/Witness plan is not to be overlooked. This disruption package, backed up with Wall of Blossoms, has shown itself to be more than adequete to hoold your opponent off long enough to set up the combo.

In regards to , "the mark of a good Survival deck is how well it does without Survival" Sure thats been the mantra of RGSA for ever, but it's not providing you with results, in fact I think it's holding the deck back from acheiving a higher potential. The deck has become nothing more than a pet project that is severly lacking in innovation. Survival has broken written all over it, but what most people are doing with the card is underpowered. Once I have Survival going I want to win, not maybe win, win. The combo does acheives this.

Against Goblins the win/loss percentage hasn't really changed that much. However, the nature of the matchup is very different b/c. you can assume the role of beatdown by goldfishing past them. Traditional RGSA was forced to use the B.Wish plan to even hope to survive Goblins. I think this is a great example of how people are trying to force the RGSA concept to be good in the metagame when it just isn't.

I'm not saying, "RecurSur is the nutz it pwns all!" No, however, I'm finding much more success with it then traditional RGSA. When you consider that the only high profile finishes any Survival deck has had recently came with innovations outside the box of traditional RGSA, you have to ask yourself what is going on. I did, and this is where I went with the deck.

I'm curious about both the blue builds of with Recur and about the Kiki Jiki combo. Anyone care to comment?

Sean

[quicksilver]

"the mark of a good Survival deck is how well it does without Survival"

You are right this is not always true. If you can reliably find survival, and reliably resolve it then you don't really need to worry about your games without a survival. It just has often been hard to reliably find and resolve survivals.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Okay, since, Anwar's new analysis of the metagame has been released, it seems we need to be focused on sideboarding and well, maindecking hate against Angel Stompy, Thresh, and most importantly Solidarity. As of right now, we arent going to be seeing any Survival Top 8s without some heavy anti-Solidarity tech.

[AngryTroll]

To be more competative in the Solidarity matchup, running the black splash is the way to go. Running Cabal Therapy in the main at least gives you a shot in game one, and siding in another four cards (Pillar, REB, Duress) gives you a fighting chance at the match.

Running Black also gives you great sideboard cards in Haunting Echoes, Crainial Extraction, Massacre, and whatever else you find. Withered Wretch and Bone Shredder help out in matchups that are iffy game one, too. The added non-basic(s) to the mainboard should not be too much of an issue, because in the matchup where the non-basics can be a liability and Birds do not have a long life expectancy (mainly Goblins), the black splash is not as neccasary to win. In the matchups where Bayous and Birds are expected to live, like against Rifter, Solidarity, and IGGy Pop, the black splash is very helpful.
(Yes, against Rifter, Birds don't neccasaraly live long, productive lives. If your opponent doesn't see it coming, one activation is all you need.)

I have been playing with Aether Vials, Therapies, and the Troll vs. Wall of Blossoms slot. Troll is key in the Deadguy and the Rifter matchup, and is better then Wall of Blossoms against Gro. However, Wall of Blossoms is better against Goblins and hyper-aggro and Sligh, if those are common in your area.

Going into an unknown tournament, I think I would Therapy over Vial, but the Troll vs. Wall of Blossoms question is a tough one. If you run Troll, Sword of Fire and Ice is an absolute Bomb. If you run Wall of Blossoms, it is still great, but I think I would cut them for extra disruption and commit yourself solidly to being the control in most matchups.

[Tao]

Ohran Viper 1GG
Snow Creature - Snake 1/3
Whenever Ohran Viper deals combat damage to a creature, destroy that creature at end of combat.
Whenever Ohran Viper deals combat damage to a player, you may draw a card.


I think that the Ohran Viper should find its way into the deck in the Troll slot if you finally decide to play it with the splash for Therapy. With B in the deck the deck gets get more controllish and Viper is just great for that.

Troll/Viper vs. Tier 1 decks:

- Viper is better vs. Gobbos because it survives 2/2-Goblins and Clasms without paying 1G (that you rarely have)
- Viper is better vs. Solidarity because it will draw you more Therapies, Wishes and SB-cards
- Viper is not as good as Troll against Gro, but still very good

[FallenOmnipotent]

- Viper is better vs. Solidarity because it will draw you more Therapies, Wishes and SB-cards I'm not sure about this. Viper comes down turn 2 at best, turn 3 on average. You won't be drawing an extra card until the following turn. That one card, statisticly, is irrelivant. You'll have to draw several cards (several turns) before it should make a differance. Troll Is a clock though. Combined with your other drops (or other trolls), you are at least applying a medicore clock. I haven't tested or anything, but just my first thought on the statment I guess.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I'm not sure about this. Viper comes down turn 2 at best, turn 3 on average. You won't be drawing an extra card until the following turn. That one card, statisticly, is irrelivant. You'll have to draw several cards (several turns) before it should make a differance. Troll Is a clock though. Combined with your other drops (or other trolls), you are at least applying a medicore clock. I haven't tested or anything, but just my first thought on the statment I guess.


QFT. Viper really isn't all that great vs. Solidarity in my opinion. Yes it does hit you an extra card a turn, but however we all must realize the odds of drawing that relevant card. You can't just expect to rip a Therapy off of the first Viper activation. I think that it is more important to put Solidarity on a clock and to pressure them into a corner via disruption and Burning Wish.

[FallenOmnipotent]

Has anyone considered Ichneumon Druid vs. Solidarity. Combined with Dosan, seems like it could do some damage. Just an idea.... idk if it's any good.

[quicksilver]

Has anyone considered Ichneumon Druid vs. Solidarity. Combined with Dosan, seems like it could do some damage. Just an idea.... idk if it's any good.

It's been suggested several times already in this thread.

[AngryTroll]

Running Therapies main, with something like Pyroclastic Pillar in the sideboard is the way to go against Solidarity.

If you expect to see a ton of Solidarity, you may want to run Therapy and Duress main, or Therapy and Mesmeric Feind (a tutorable Duress).

Also note the savage tech of being able to Burning Wish for a Therapy after using it twice. Tech. The much better plan is to Burning Wish for Tsunami and use Cabal Therapy to try and live long enough to resolve Tsunami or Pyroclastic Pillar, and put down a clock. Ther first Therapy should probably name High Tide, but the second can name whateever you see. Its doable, but not amazing.

[Mulletus]

One of the best things about this deck is how there are so many ways to tweak it. It has great matchups against stuff that has great matchups against the top decks. Its major problem is combo, but a well built sideboard can handle that. I have been running Chalice, and have been considering Pillar for the major events. I have been out of practice as of late, do to the situation in the Cuse. I did make the top 8 at Kadi's Draught. And provided a ride, I'll be in Connetiquit. My goal is to have enough sideboard cards to take out the dead cards against combo, allthewhile not limiting my wish targets.

[Kundalini]

I like a lot the idea of combo in RGSA - and I agree the best one is kiki-jiki and wirewood symbiote. You don't need sky hussar, sharpshooter, etc. just add kiki and symbiote (who I would include anyways) and you have a combo that can potentially win you the match on turn 3! (more realistically, but also consistantly turn 4-5) Without disrupting the overall potential of the deck in all situations, since both kiki and the symbiote have huge sinergy with the rest of your creatures. Since my addiction of kiki-jiki in the deck, I'm keeping winning almost only by combo. Even if one piece of the combo (wirewood, kiki, or maybe anger or rofellos) gets STPed or removed from the graveyard, often there is an easy 1-turn win by burning wish for living wish, bring back the missing piece, and go off that same turn!

Here is the list I currently run:

//Lands
4 Taiga
8 Fetchlands
1 Mountain
6 Forest
2 Stomping ground

//mana creatures
4 Bop
4 Elves (2 fyndhorn-2 llanowar split is the best)
1 Rofellos
1 Wood elves
1 Quirion ranger
1 Wirewood symbiote
1 Yavimaya elder

//graveyard creatures
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Squee

//other creatures
1 Kiki-jiki
1 Spore frog
1 Viridian zealot
1 Goblin sharpshooter
3 Eternal witness
2 Wall of blossoms
1 Spike feeder
1 Ravenous baloth
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Shivan Wurm
1 Deranged hermit

//spells
4 SotF
4 Burning wish

//sideboard
2 Naturalize
1 Dosan
1 Decree of annihilation
1 Anarchy
1 Biorythm
1 Demonfire
1 Seeds of Innocence
1 Regrowth
1 Reverent Silence
1 Whirlwind
1 Living wish
1 Tsunami
1 Pyroclasm
1 Hull breach


Some card choces:

Spike feeder over Baloth: costs 1 less and that is important in burn/aggro matchup. Moving +1/+1 counters also helps protecting rofellos, kiki, symbiote, etc.
Shivan Wurm and Deranged hermit: these could be just kill-more cards, maybe they will eventually be cut. Wurm is helpful for bouncing rofellos, witnesses, wall of blossom and a huge threat even with no survival. Hermit offers ridiculous play in combo with either kiki or symbiote. But I feel they are not really needed, so probably I will cut both.
Sharpshooter and Spore frog main: a metagame choice, in an aggro and aggro-control meta these are rarely dead, often game breaking.
Viridian zealot over Indrik stomphowler: still debatable choice, I prefer zealot because I can play it and blow the permanent on the subsequent turn, also I can play him with a survival on the board and no art/ench on the opposing.
Wirewood symbiote / Quirion ranger: apart from the combo, these are capable of generating tons of mana with Rofellos, which makes the deck explosive: in my opinion, one full turn faster at least.
Wood Elves: often one of my first survival targets, building up lands (multiple times with symbiote) powering up rofellos, finding that missing taiga, he is card advantage and mana fixer, a good utility; I wouldn't cut this guy.
Yavimaya elder: originally I ran 2, then cut 1, I'm unsure whether he is better than Sakura tribe elder... or maybe could be Krosan tusker, however picked elder because he is both a deck thinner/ finds mana in early game or if you are low on lands, and capable of drawing you 3 cards for 3gg late game.
Stomping grounds: since the addition of more red key cards, I really need lots of red mana producers which are also forests.
Decree of Annihilation: a bomb against all forms of control lategame, an uncounterable armageddon.
Biorythm: surprise win, still testing.
Demonfire: better than disintegrate, alternative win, creature removal.
Living wish: amazing against graveyard hate, STP; this makes really hard for your opponent to screw your combo.

[quicksilver]

Here is what I ran at the mana leak open.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4201
I scrubbed out of the main event but won the 40 person side event.

So what do you think about werebear, hot or not? In my experience with them they didn't really affect it one way or the other very much. Because they are so similar to the elves they are seldom worse, but threshold doesn't come till late game which you often don't get too because you've already won or lost.

[AngryTroll]

I have been playing the black splash too, and I agree that the one spot feels very heavy. Werebear does seem like a strong choice, but how often (if ever) were you frustrated to have Werebear and Survial in hand and no acceleration for turn one? Having an extra set of 4/4s for the late game does seem like a strong choice, and it does not seem like the Werebears add a lot of graveyard dependency, because they are replacing 1/1s anyway.

Also, why did you decide not to run Haunting Echoes in the sideboard? That card has been the nuts for me so far. Also, Massacre has been great, if rather limited.

[quicksilver]

Also, why did you decide not to run Haunting Echoes in the sideboard? That card has been the nuts for me so far. Also, Massacre has been great, if rather limited.

There are only so many slots in the SB. I have tested echos and it just costs too much mana to wish for it. There are normally other wish targets which are just as good but cheaper.

[AngryTroll]

I have been playing the Werebears over the Elves for the past three tournaments I went to, and they are absolutely awesome! It is very rare that you have a Werebear in hand, but no Duress, Therapy, or Birds for the first turn play. In the early turns, Survivaling for a Werebear provides mana, but you know that in a few turns (when you want to move into administering beatings or blocking fatties instead of answering opponents threats) he will swing with the biggest guys on your team.

I spent many games building an army of Werebears and Duressing decks like Rifter, or building Eternal Witness and Werebear armies until I hit Threshold and swung for lethal from nowhere.

My current list is almost identical to Quicksilver, with very minor changes to the creature base. Just as a side note, Rifter is basically my favorite matchup ever. I am something like 6-1-1 in games the past month, and the Rifter player was convinced that I would have won the draw with more time. Rediculous.

[Tao]

Three things:

First:

After suggesting the B splash since 10 (!) month, now it finally seems to be played.
That was hard work ; )

Decks with Therapy are strictly superior for a random meta because you can beat Combo with it and have better chances against control. Furthermore any deck that is not pure beatdown or Combo should have a way to disrupt the opponent.
It would be a good idea to change the title of the thread into Gbr/SA (Green black red Survival Advantage).

Second:

If you run lists that are similar to quicksilver's side event list (Therapy, Burning Wish) add Sensei's Divining Top. Sensei's Divining Top is mega-ultra-awesome card quality that makes you draw the cards you want. If you need a Wish to get rid of something, you will find it a billion turns earlier than in Topdeck mode. Same is true for Survival. Furthermore you reduce drawing dead Discard spells and lands in the Lategame (or Kavus against control etc.) by 80% or something.

Third:

I have been testing a build that runs Dark Confidants. It is not better or worse than quicksilver's list, just an experiment, but lots of fun to play.

The basic theory behind it is to have 8 accelerating 1-drops (Birds and Vial) combined with 8 great 2-drops (Confidant and Survival). Ohran Viper and Witness create card advantage and Baloth / Kavu are on top of the curve. Jitte beats Aggro. Therapy and Duress are good. I didn't test Werebear but they may replace the Wall of Blossoms.


// Lands
6 [RAV] Forest (1)
4 [R] Bayou
4 [U] Taiga
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Birds of Paradise
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
3 [CS] Ohran Viper
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [ON] Ravenous Baloth
2 [PS] Flametongue Kavu
1 [PT] Fire Imp
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
1 [JU] Genesis

// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [US] Duress
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
SB: 1 [LE] Withered Wretch
SB: 3 [9E] Naturalize
SB: 3 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 3 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar

[parallax]

@AngryTroll: I've found that Genesis pretty much single-handedly trumps everything Rifter is trying to do. Comnbined with Burning Wish for enchantment removal, there is basically no way for Rifter to stop you.

Werebear seems strong. Does the long time it takes to achieve threshold hurt?

Is the combo match-up winnable yet? I've found eight discard spells to not be enough given the ultra-slow clock.

How is the threshold match-up? When I first tested RGSA against Thresh, I found it was overwhelmingly positive. Later testing showed it to be overwhelmingly negative. I have a very hard time getting an accurate reading on this match-up. I know the long game can go in RGSA's favor if it has a way to remove Mystic Enforcer, but I find that thresh can often out-tempo RGSA into a win. I assume Aether Vial is good here, but I'm not sure whether that's the way to go.

@Tao: Only 20 land? Only 4 Birds as mana critters? I realize that your curve is lower than normal and Vial helps, but does the low mana count hurt you much?

I've always played Sakura-Tribe Elder, but I guess that's where the Werebear slot would come from.

I also like to play multiple Tin-Street Hooligans. If threshold drops a Pithing Needle, I usually laugh at them. They also take out Vial against Goblins (which is a godsend) and equipment against Angel Stompy (also important). I've never been unhappy to see them.

[quicksilver]

@AngryTroll: I've found that Genesis pretty much single-handedly trumps everything Rifter is trying to do. Comnbined with Burning Wish for enchantment removal, there is basically no way for Rifter to stop you.
Rifter is pretty positive, then again, I think everyone is realizing rifter is just really bad right now.



Werebear seems strong. Does the long time it takes to achieve threshold hurt?
Sometimes you would like it to be faster with the thresh. However, unlike in Gro, it's main purpose is just tapping for mana. Only once you don't need the mana anymore (the late game), do you generally want to be swinging with it. Also if you have survival out, it is extremly easy to get thresh. Bear is generally a house against goblins, since with a survival out you can build up your mana base they wrecked, while putting out huge blockers.


Is the combo match-up winnable yet? I've found eight discard spells to not be enough given the ultra-slow clock.
It is, you can try mesmeric fiends as well, they add a little to your clock and are survivable. I am running 7 discard main, and up to 4 more in the SB.


How is the threshold match-up? When I first tested RGSA against Thresh, I found it was overwhelmingly positive. Later testing showed it to be overwhelmingly negative. I have a very hard time getting an accurate reading on this match-up. I know the long game can go in RGSA's favor if it has a way to remove Mystic Enforcer, but I find that thresh can often out-tempo RGSA into a win. I assume Aether Vial is good here, but I'm not sure whether that's the way to go.
Thresh is about 50/50 if they are competant and have an ideal build. If they arn't that good or their build is more suboptimal, it gets more favorable for you.



@Tao: Only 20 land? Only 4 Birds as mana critters? I realize that your curve is lower than normal and Vial helps, but does the low mana count hurt you much?

I've always played Sakura-Tribe Elder, but I guess that's where the Werebear slot would come from.

I am a fan of 21 land, 6 of them being fetches. Sakura and werebear fill the same roll, sakura is more resiliant if you need to be guaranteed early land drops. Werebear is a much better late game top deck.


I also like to play multiple Tin-Street Hooligans. If threshold drops a Pithing Needle, I usually laugh at them. They also take out Vial against Goblins (which is a godsend) and equipment against Angel Stompy (also important). I've never been unhappy to see them.
If your meta warents it go for it. Tin street is an amazing card in this deck and I would highly recomened running one main, it allows you to survival out answers to artifacts very early.

[parallax]

How many people here have tested Aether Vial? It seems like it has great synergy with Survival itself, but maybe it's not that great without the Survival. I'm hesitant to include cards like that. Still, this is a creature deck. Can our mana curve support Vial? My problem is that with Birds/Werebear/Sakura-Tribe Elder, I'm usually dropping four-drops on turn three and Vial won't catch up til turn five. Should we be running more two and three drops to support Vial?

How viable is Mesmeric Fiend maindeck? It seems better than Duress in most cases. The only problem is that creature removal gives them their card back. Obviously, though, you can always pick creature removal out of their hand with Fiend, and if they Swords Fiend rather than your business creatures, more power to you, right?

Is Ohran Viper as good as I think he is? He seems like a house but I'm not sure what to cut.

Ravenous Baloth no longer seems to be an auto-4-of. Is this because of Werebear's inclusion or just a reduction of the mana curve or both?

[Ewokslayer]

How many people here have tested Aether Vial? It seems like it has great synergy with Survival itself, but maybe it's not that great without the Survival. I'm hesitant to include cards like that. Still, this is a creature deck. Can our mana curve support Vial? My problem is that with Birds/Werebear/Sakura-Tribe Elder, I'm usually dropping four-drops on turn three and Vial won't catch up til turn five. Should we be running more two and three drops to support Vial?

How viable is Mesmeric Fiend maindeck? It seems better than Duress in most cases. The only problem is that creature removal gives them their card back. Obviously, though, you can always pick creature removal out of their hand with Fiend, and if they Swords Fiend rather than your business creatures, more power to you, right?

Is Ohran Viper as good as I think he is? He seems like a house but I'm not sure what to cut.

Ravenous Baloth no longer seems to be an auto-4-of. Is this because of Werebear's inclusion or just a reduction of the mana curve or both?

I found Vial to be both a bit slow and not entirely helpful in RGSA's worst matchups (combo)
For awhile I was running Mesmeric Fiend in the maindeck as was very happy with him. He is even somewhat useful against Goblins in blocking Lackey on the play, something Duress can't. I have since gone back to maindeck duress with the switch from elves to werebears for mana curve reasons.
I personally had dropped the number of baloths prior to the inclusion of Werebear as a result of baloth generally not being that good. He doesn't usually generate card advantage on the same level as FTK and as such isn't as good.
I have yet to test the viper and honestly I am not sure where he would fit in. I would imagine he would be a 3-4 of as he really isn't the sort of creature you survival for.

[quicksilver]

You don't need 4 baloths right now. The mount of direct damage in the format is fairly low. There arn't too many burn decks and sligh, which baloth is amazing against, is virtually non-existant. Also you now have an additional beast you can sack to the baloth, the stomphowler. I've been running 2 baloths and I think that is a good number at the moment.

I too haven't tested the viper, he is a fairly strong card on his own, however doesn't put much of a clock on for three mana. He does seem strong at taking out ground based fatties that are too big for FTK, but those are seldom seen, and you can still gang block them to kill them.

[Watcher487]

How many people here have tested Aether Vial? It seems like it has great synergy with Survival itself, but maybe it's not that great without the Survival. I'm hesitant to include cards like that. Still, this is a creature deck. Can our mana curve support Vial? My problem is that with Birds/Werebear/Sakura-Tribe Elder, I'm usually dropping four-drops on turn three and Vial won't catch up til turn five. Should we be running more two and three drops to support Vial?

Is Ohran Viper as good as I think he is? He seems like a house but I'm not sure what to cut.

Well my personal opinion still stands on Vial...

You need to lower the curve to make Vial work in a Survival deck. I've been reworking CSJ over and over again and I finally found that in a more grounded curve you have a better chance on making Vial work better for ya. But that doesn't mean I try to cheat things every now and then.

I would like to thank Quicksilver for actually playing Werebear and actually believing me when I said it was worth it.

Ohran Viper has been ok for me, nothing really to be happy about here. He blocks most Goblins fine and dandy but he doesn't do one thing I really need this deck to do sometimes... Kill Fliers. The Ophid effect really doesn't happen most of the time for me unless I'm Alpha Striking, usually by then I'm all ready winning.

[quicksilver]

I would like to thank Quicksilver for actually playing Werebear and actually believing me when I said it was worth it.

Wait, when did you ever mention werebears in this deck?

[AngryTroll]

I also played with Vial, and while it was occasionally amazing with Spore Frog and Genesis, overall I found it to be a little wanting. It is great on turn one, absolutely. But that means running four, and messing with the curve of the rest of the deck. I opted against going all the way with this, and started playing with a heavier black splash and never went back to Vial. Oh well.

I run 3 Baloth (-1 Tin Street Hooligan, +1 Baloth), but I also see lots of sligh and even burn on occasion. If I were to start seeing more AS and less sligh, I might switch that. Baloth is better against Angel Stompy then a lot of the other creatures in the deck, so maybe not.

I run a single Bone Shredder for fliers. However, Enforcer has pro black. On the other hand (or is it back to the first hand?), racing Threshold is not usually a problem. If they play first, force some goodies, and drop Enforcer with thresh on turn three or four, you may have a problem. Most lists only run one or maybe two Enforcers, though, so it is not that big of a concern. Bone Shredder is really there for things like EDragon, EAngel, and Silver Knight. Silly Kavu-Proof creatures, Kavu has friends!

Edit: Between Werebear and the Black splash, this deck feels almost like an entirely different deck then the RG version running Troll and Swords. Troll may be my favorite critter, but I can see almost no reason I would go back to the other version.

[Tao]

I tested with Vial a bit, too (but only in a rogue build with Confidant). It was randomly either doing nothing or being a gamebreaking bomb. Sometimes I played my hand empty before I could use Vial once and in other games it accelerates, makes my creatures uncounterable and accelerates. It is great with Genesis in the Yard because you can pay for Genesis and play your creature the same turn. I am absolutely unsure about Vial.

It was especially great, when:
- being screwed
- against decks that attack the mana base like Deadguy or Staxx
- having a Survival
- playing against counterheavy deck

[Xenocide]

I played this deck at my local tournament today and went 3-0-1, with my draw being to a landstill variant. I went 2-1 vs. gobs, 2-0 vs some scrub playing rifter, and 2-0 to burning tog.

I wasnt too impressed w/ the vials, often times they were dead, like when I didn't have a survival out, and when they came in useful they didn't affect the match results very much anyway. Most of the time I wished they had been a threat so that I could apply more pressure, or better defend myself.

I loved the werebears, they were my primary beatstick vs decks that didn't pack creatures, and against decks that did have creatures, they were still a beating. However, I only ran 3, with the 4th slot going to STE, which I liked because it allowed me to effectively survival a land drop.

Goblins was a difficult match, but FTK and spike feeder really shine in this matchup, in both the games that I won, multiple feeders brought me out of the "danger zone."

Gotta go. I'll try to post more later.

[Vardaman]

I will reiterate that I hate Vials, love one Tin Street Hooligan and Sakura Tribe Elder maindeck, and am unsure about Werebear.

[AngryTroll]

I love the Werebears, and I am very impressed with them at all times. I was so-so about vials, so they are no longer run. I have heard talk about a number of different builds lately, but I am running Quicksilver's list with about 3 or 4 cards different, and a different wishboard (due to meta).

I do miss the sheer power of Sword of Fire and Ice sometimes (typically when a threat is already in play and Duress/Therapy are no longer useful), but the disruption they provide swings several matchups into the realm of winnable.

[Xenocide]

I don't like vial, however I'm unsure on what to replace it with. I've been thinking about mirri's guile. Though guile isn't a threat, it helps find them.
(keep in mind this is all speculation as I havent tested it yet.)

its pros:
-its a pseudo brainstorm every turn
-works great w/ fetch lands
-isn't quite as bad a topdeck (as vial)
-is better if you dont have survival out
-helps find non creature cards (survival, wish, jitte (which I play), etc.)
-helps find creature cards (not as relevant if you have survival out)

its cons:
-not as effective as vial at "cheating" mana costs, however it allows you
hit more land drops
-not as good in multiples (this shouldn't happen too often if you run 3)
-not as useful with survival out
-doesnt increase tempo, but increases card selection which this deck
already has

In summation, guile is better than vial when survival isn't on the board, but worse/not-as-useful when you have a survival in play. I think it deserves some thought/playtesting, however I need to get 2 more because I only have 1.

[Muradin]

Hi.
I am interested in playing Survival and decided for something similar to this because its not as dependant on drawing and resolving survival as for example welder survival.
But my testing results with this deck have been very poor.
In my meta there is a lot of vial goblins(about 30 %), some life from the loam/devastating dreams decks and ******** with red.
What kind of build would you suggest for a goblin heavy meta?(best would be a decklist)

[Team-Hero]

wall of roots!!!
Loxodon Hierarch or Ravenous Baloth
Flametongue Kavu
Swords to Plowshares

as for the Loam. Just run Withered Wretch and Loaming Shaman. You should be fine.

[Vardaman]

Goblins can be a tricky match-up but it should be 50/50. Mulling into Burning Wish hands can be a good idea. I've heard good things about Wall of Blossoms but I haven't played it myself. Be sure to fetch basics whenever possible.

Playing Jitte can help. You can't really support equipment with the black splash but then you get to bring in Plague.

I've liked Ruination to slow down Loam decks but clearly it's not the best option for the RGb version. Haunting echos might be good there if you can get to double black without too much trouble. One Loaming Shaman and some number of Crypts (in the sideboard) are good vs. them and Thresh.

You should be favored against both versions of Gro/Threshold. They can't counter all of your threats and the red version doesn't have Mystic Enforcer so you should be fine. Running 3-4 Baloths can help if you start to dip low in life.

EDIT: Or you could just run Angel Stompy if you wanted to beat goblins.

[Mulletus]

Has anyone looked into the new madnes creatures in Timespiral? I think the one that does dmg for revealed black cards, might be playable. The other one has cocatrice affect. I need to find out if the come-into-play ability can be left on the stack while you search for a creature with survival.

[quicksilver]

Has anyone looked into the new madnes creatures in Timespiral? I think the one that does dmg for revealed black cards, might be playable. The other one has cocatrice affect. I need to find out if the come-into-play ability can be left on the stack while you search for a creature with survival.

If you madness Nightshade Assassin into play by discarding it to survival, the come into play trigger resolves before the survival activation does.

[CynicalSquirrel]

I realize that this is a pretty hardcore necro, and I don't know if anyone else is working on this deck anymore, but I had an epiphany recently that I think could make this deck a lot better.

In Type 2 right now, one of the top decks is UG Scryb and Force, using Scryb Ranger and Spectral Force as basically an 8/8 trample with no drawback for 5 mana, usually coming down turn 3-4. After some random thinking, I thought why not add this to Survival? For one thing Scryb Ranger/Quirion Ranger (I prefer Scryb for it's chump blocking ability vs. Faerie Stompy and being able to play it instant speed off a Survival) is already a strong card in Survival decks, so basically you're just adding an 8/8 trample for 5 to the deck that can end games very quickly. I don't know if it's win more or not, but when I've goldfished, I've been getting a turn 3 Force with haste fairly consistently, and think it has tremendous synergy with the deck.

Anyways, just wanted to know if anyone else had considered it or tried it, and how it turned out when you did.

EDIT: Meh, here's a random list I've been trying. I'm still too cheap to switch to the black splash, even though I pretty much know it's better. I just found the deck after I'd lost it for a few months and I'm not sure if I want to spend all the money yet.


// Lands
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Mountain
12 Forest

// Creatures
1 Anger
4 Flametongue Kavu
4 Eternal Witness
1 Indrik Stomphowler
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Ravenous Baloth
1 Genesis
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
2 Spectral Force
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Llanowar Elves

// Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Burning Wish
4 Sword of Fire and Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Loaming Shaman
SB: 1 Anarchy
SB: 1 Chainer's Edict
SB: 1 Hull Breach
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Regrowth
SB: 1 Tsunami
SB: 1 Ruination
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Krosan Grip

Basically it can play more of an aggro game now with the Spectral Forces, and I added a full set of Sword of Fire and Ice because I find that the card is always extremely strong and I like how it can help you race fast opponents. Plus SOFI on a Spectral Force pretty much ends the game, barring a Swords to Plowshares (in which case you just gain 10 life and fetch another one).

[Vardaman]

I like the list for the most part but how is Spectral Force better than Shivan Wurm? I can see a suited up Force ending the game quickly but Shivan Wurm is about the same size but doesn't have the untapping problem without the Scryb Ranger. His bounce a creature requirement isn't usually bad.

As far as other nit-picky things go, how has Stomphowler worked out? Do you ever wish he didn't cost five? I've just been running Tin Street but his body is underwhelming.

Also consider -1 FTK, +1 Masticore. You could untap Rofellos for even more machine-gunning.

[Silverdragon]

How is hasted Force better than hasted Deranged Hermit?
As I see it the last thing this deck needs is better fat. It already has an advantage over Goblins and Thresh in critters (either bigger or more) so what it really needs (and the reason for the blacksplash) is a weapon against combo. 5 Mana for 8 Power helps just as much as 5 Mana for 9 Power against Solidarity or IGGy Pop. (namely nothing :P)
I still know a lot of people who play Survival because they don't want to waste money on Tundras or other moneycards and they all have different opinions on how to solve the combo matchup so I guess I have to thank you for necroing this old RGSA Thread ^^

[AngryTroll]

As far as the combo problem goes, running 4 Duress and 3 Therapy mainboard is a start. From the sideboard, feel free to grab another 4-8 pieces of hate, in the form of Pyrostatic Pillar (my favorite), REB, Mesmyric Fiend, Tormod's Crypt (IGGY), etc. My sideboard is as follows:

4 Engineered Plague
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Regrowth
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Massacre
1 Hull Breach
1 Tsunami
1 Pyroclasm
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Anarchy
1 Flashfires
1 Ruination
1 Reverent Silence.

Yes, that is 19 cards...take out four of the cards depending on your metagame (I typically don't run the Flashfires, Ruination, Reverent Silence, and the fourth Plague, but that is completely metagame dependent.)

Boarding:
Against Goblins,
-4 Duress,
+4 Engineered Plague.

Against Solidarity/Iggy
-4 FtK
+4 Pyrostatic Pillar
+Lucking into multiple black disruption pieces...
You can also side out one more irrelevant creature (Bone Shredder) for the 4th Therapy, if you plan on just wishing for Tsunami, or vice-versa.

Thresh:
If you have a Duplicant or a Loaming Shaman in the side or main, use it for Enforcers. Everything else is not too bad. The games Threshold seems to win are the games that the ground stalls and a Thresholded Enforcer takes it in the air. Burning Wish for Haunting Echoes or Tsunami. But Haunting Echeos-ing a Threshold deck is about the funniest thing ever.

[Jaynel]

Why not Chalice in the sideboard over Pyrostatic Pillar? Chalice at 0 stalls Tendrils based combo, and you definitely have the potential to cast Chalices at 1, 2, and 3 with all your mana guys to help against Burn and Solidarity.

[AngryTroll]

Diablos' recent work on EATS made me play with a couple of different variations of three and four color Survival.

The things that I liked the most abouts EATS were the Tinder Walls, the Brainstorms, and the Dark Confidants. Now, clearly, Brainstorm alone is not worth a fourth color. There goes that. Tinder Wall was great, and can accelerate into Baloth or FTK on the second turn, but I don't think it can take the place of Werebear or Birds, the other two mana critters. So out goes Tinder Wall.

Dark Confidant, however, was incredible. Absolutely worth running in the list. Well, right away we want to drop the curve, so Stomphowler becomes Hooligan. After that, we need to fit in three or four Confidants.

Well, after working on it for a few days, the possible cuts are:
the 61st card (eh, go bother Diablos about it)
1 Baloth
1 Burning Wish
1 Duress
or a few other cards. Personally, I am working with -1 Baloth, -1 Burning Wish, and +1 card to the deck overall, making the list 61 cards.

The other thing I want to do with the deck is help out the Goblins matchup. Blocking a turn one Lackey is vitally important. The card that leaps to mind is Mogg Fanatic. Not always great, but good on the play or the draw against Goblins, and against a few other great decks.

Well, the list as I have it now:
(To see what I call the standard RGBSA list, -3 Bob, +1 Baloth, +1 Burning Wish)

4 Birds
4 Werebear
3 Bobs
3 Eternal Witness
4 FtK
2 Baloth
1 Hooligan
1 Rofellos
1 Genesis
1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Bone Shredder

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Survival
3 Burning Wish

4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
3 Bayou
5 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Hull Breach
1 Massacre
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Pyroclasm
1 Regrowth
1 Anarchy/Tsunami/whatever you decide
The sideboard is pretty flexible, because its all metagame dependent. The Plagues and the Pillars are pretty self-explanatory, and I would always run them in an unknown metagame.

Dark Confidant adds to the list of cards that say "Counter me this turn, or deal with me next turn, or lose the game." Other cards on that list are Survival, Burning Wish, and Rofellos. I would still like to add in something more against Goblins game one (without adding in the Goblin Wrath Goblin, because it is so narrow, and comes at a hefty mana cost), but I don't want to trade percentage points against Threshold and Solidarity/Iggy. I flirted with replacing Duress with Mesmeric Fiend, as the only card Duress hits is Aether Vial, on the play, in game one. Fiend is either a 1/1 blocker for two, or a cross between Duress and Cabal Therapy for 1B. Plague Spitter is another option, and at least it could be useful against other Survival decks, Angel Stompy, and a few other specific matchups.

-4 Duress
+3 Mesmeric Fiend
+1 Cabal Therapy?

[frogboy]

I never had all that high of an opinion of Mesmeric Fiend, but why oh why is there not 4 MD Therapy? If you must sideboard hand disruption, use Duress.

[troopatroop]

////S2K7/////

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Burning Wish
3 Duress

4 Dark Confidant
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Quirrion Ranger
1 Rofellos

3 Eternal Witness
3 Tin-street Hooligan
4 Flametounge Kavu
2 Ravenous Baloth
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Masticore

1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Genesis

4 Taiga
4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
1 Mountain

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Tsunami
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shatterstorm
1 Anarchy
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Loaming Shaman

Too much MD discard is bad. You only need 3 Duress/Therapy IMO to force through a Bomb. 4 Confidant is amazing. 3 MD Tin-street is amazing in actual matchups. Your wishboard is underwhelming. You lack the amazingness of Jitte and it's topdeck game winning powers. B-Wish anarchy is a must against Angelstompy. In general, lowered the curve, playing confidant, owning noobs? Lawl?

[Di]

The other thing I want to do with the deck is help out the Goblins matchup. Blocking a turn one Lackey is vitally important. The card that leaps to mind is Mogg Fanatic. Not always great, but good on the play or the draw against Goblins, and against a few other great decks.

Then why did you cut Tinder Wall? That's the primary reason the card was being used in the first place. It also accelerates turn 2 FTK or Baloth, which isn't bad. Mogg Fanatic is a solid call as well, but the red mana required to cast it could be an issue in some cases. Probably not often since you have a lot of red sources, but if you aren't able to stop a Lackey when you should be then I'd question the slot.

In this deck you could actually get away with possibly running Kird Ape in that slot too. Awful, I know, but hey it's still a decent one-drop.


I never had all that high of an opinion of Mesmeric Fiend, but why oh why is there not 4 MD Therapy? If you must sideboard hand disruption, use Duress.

The fact that you can survival for Mesmeric Fiend makes it worthwhile. Against combo decks and the like disruption is key in winning and when you can chain off Mesmeric Fiends it makes it a lot easier to win. It's also 4 more Duress.


Too much MD discard is bad. You only need 3 Duress/Therapy IMO to force through a Bomb. 4 Confidant is amazing. 3 MD Tin-street is amazing in actual matchups. Your wishboard is underwhelming. You lack the amazingness of Jitte and it's topdeck game winning powers. B-Wish anarchy is a must against Angelstompy. In general, lowered the curve, playing confidant, owning noobs? Lawl?


Agreed with the maindeck discard issue. Running so many does improve you game 1 against combo decks, but running Duress maindeck is awful against Goblins. As a Survival player I personally fear Goblins more than combo, so I'd aim to solve that problem first.

However, it's almost mandatory you run at least 4 maindeck. Running any less decreases your chances of getting a first turn discard -> 2nd turn bomb play.

Anarchy wouldn't be as much of an issue against Angel Stompy if you were running a non-red removal source (other than Masticore). Seriously, you're kicking yourself for not running something like Bone Shredder. He's a frail 1/1 yes, but he's faster than FTK and will kill something with a Sword of Fire and Ice on it. He also kills Exalted Angel, which you have serious issues with.

Also, can you elaborate on how that curve was lowered? Aside from removing Indrik Stomphowler, I fail to see any evidence really of a lower curve. It's not really a concern or anything, I'm just curious.

[frogboy]

Was the Duress/Therapy topic already discussed?

[troopatroop]

Then why did you cut Tinder Wall? That's the primary reason the card was being used in the first place. It also accelerates turn 2 FTK or Baloth, which isn't bad. Mogg Fanatic is a solid call as well, but the red mana required to cast it could be an issue in some cases. Probably not often since you have a lot of red sources, but if you aren't able to stop a Lackey when you should be then I'd question the slot.

In this deck you could actually get away with possibly running Kird Ape in that slot too. Awful, I know, but hey it's still a decent one-drop.



The fact that you can survival for Mesmeric Fiend makes it worthwhile. Against combo decks and the like disruption is key in winning and when you can chain off Mesmeric Fiends it makes it a lot easier to win. It's also 4 more Duress.



Agreed with the maindeck discard issue. Running so many does improve you game 1 against combo decks, but running Duress maindeck is awful against Goblins. As a Survival player I personally fear Goblins more than combo, so I'd aim to solve that problem first.

However, it's almost mandatory you run at least 4 maindeck. Running any less decreases your chances of getting a first turn discard -> 2nd turn bomb play.

Anarchy wouldn't be as much of an issue against Angel Stompy if you were running a non-red removal source (other than Masticore). Seriously, you're kicking yourself for not running something like Bone Shredder. He's a frail 1/1 yes, but he's faster than FTK and will kill something with a Sword of Fire and Ice on it. He also kills Exalted Angel, which you have serious issues with.

Also, can you elaborate on how that curve was lowered? Aside from removing Indrik Stomphowler, I fail to see any evidence really of a lower curve. It's not really a concern or anything, I'm just curious.

Llanowar not being Werebears are lowering the curve. Multiple Hooligans, Jitte, and More Bobs are quicker. Idk, I meant it more so opposed to like old, OLD RGSA which had Hermit and stuff.

You're probably right about Bone shredder, but the MD is tight... I could Cut Ranger and Masticore for Shredder and Baloth or something. What would you suggest?

What do you think of Crush of Wurms as a wish target. Danger of cool things? It IS an IWIN button, and Lategame burning wishes can be underwhelming when you need to just win.

[AngryTroll]

Duress vs Therapy

First, three Therapy main lets you Wish for the fourth, but I suppose you could move a Duress to the sideboard and play the fourth Therapy.

Duress is useless against Goblins, but it does always hit against Thresh and Solidarity. It never takes multiples (besides Force and another card), and it can't be flashed back. I would personally run Therapy before Duress, but it looks like others are running Duress and not Therapy.

Therapy: Often draws Forces like Duress, can hit multiple cards, can hit cards like Warchief, Piledriver, Gang Bang, etc. Can whiff. Flashes back, taking Birds, Bone Shredders, and other creatures that no longer seem useful.

Tinder Wall: Yes, it was great to use, but EATS seemed like a more controlling deck then RGBSA. What do you cut? Werebears? They provide a good deal of fat in the late game. Birds? No thanks. FTKs? Wishes? Disruption? I suppose you can cut Duresses, but then I would rather run Jittes (can't cut creatures for them, but cutting disruption could do it).

[psly4mne]

AngryTroll, don't you think 5 Bayou is a little much in your build?
ATS and RGSA used to be such different decks; it's interesting to see how much they have converged, with RGBSA and EATS.

[Bargoth]

I like troopatroop's list more or less.

I'm going to test it with a few minor changes, cutting x3 Duress, x3 Llanowar Elf, and x2 Jitti (I have never had much luck with Jitti in this deck) for x4 Cabal Therapy, x3 Tinder Wall and +x1 Bird of Paradise. Also going to try Bone Shredder in for Masticore, to give an out against large creatures, feel like a combination of FTK and Bwish -> Pyroclasm already answers small ones just fine.

[frogboy]

Duress is useless against Goblins, but it does always hit against Thresh and Solidarity. It never takes multiples (besides Force and another card), and it can't be flashed back. I would personally run Therapy before Duress, but it looks like others are running Duress and not Therapy.

Therapy: Often draws Forces like Duress, can hit multiple cards, can hit cards like Warchief, Piledriver, Gang Bang, etc. Can whiff. Flashes back, taking Birds, Bone Shredders, and other creatures that no longer seem useful.

So...why aren't there four Therapies main?

[AngryTroll]

Much better BWish target? 7 Cabal Therapies is better than 4? 1RB is a decent price to pay for 2 Therapies in the mid to late game. More utility then Duress in the sideboard?

I take it you would absolutely run the 4th main and cut 1-4 Duresses?

[frogboy]

I'd run the fourth main and move a Duress to the board. I can't think of any offhand situations where you'd be Burning Wishing for hand disruption anyway, and if you were, any situations where Duress wouldn't get the job done.

[Tao]

I'd run the fourth main and move a Duress to the board. I can't think of any offhand situations where you'd be Burning Wishing for hand disruption anyway, and if you were, any situations where Duress wouldn't get the job done.

That's not true. Cabal Therapy is a frequent wish target. It is wished for againts counter heavy decks and Combo decks. Usually Thresh, Landstill or Uwb would let the Burning Wish resolve and then counter your 4 Mana sorcery for a Tempo swing. But once they figured out that I would wish for Therapy they started to counter the Wish. Wishing for Duress is not the same because Therapy hits TWICE.


Dark Confidant, however, was incredible. Absolutely worth running in the list. Well, right away we want to drop the curve, so Stomphowler becomes Hooligan. After that, we need to fit in three or four Confidants.

So you took the Confidants. That was MY suggestion 6 month ago. But you get faster. It took me 9 month to get you into the B splash.

I would cut Bone Shredder from the list. There are only 2 cards where it is useful, Exalted Angel and Fledging Dragon, and both are rarely played. Exalted Angel can usually be raced with Survival anyway and Dragon is replaced by BTS in most UGr Thresh builds. So it is just a bad FTK. A good replacement could be Fire Imp. It is stronger, has no echo and hits Dark Confidant and Specter.

3 Baloth / 3 FTK may be a better configuration so that you have enough fat in the deck w/o having reached Thresh.

[Lego]

I would cut Bone Shredder from the list. There are only 2 cards where it is useful, Exalted Angel and Fledging Dragon, and both are rarely played.

And Silver Knight, and Soltari Priest, and the occasional Sea Sprites or Weatherseed Faeries, plus absolutely anything with a Sword of Fire and Ice on it.


Dragon is replaced by BTS in most UGr Thresh builds.

This may be happening in Germany, but it's not happening here.

You have to keep in mind the vast meta differences when examining decks. Your deck, as built by you, might be perfect for your meta, but a typical American meta might exploit a lot of its weaknesses. The opposite might also be said; I'm honestly not sure without looking at the lists more closely. All I know is that the Bone Shredder, at least around here, should probably stay.

[AngryTroll]

Yes, I admit it, I went back and looked, and you did post a list with Dark Confidants in it 6 months ago. And it did take forever for most of us to switch to RGbSA. However, that last list also included Jittes (good), Aether Vials, Divining Tops, and Ohran Vipers. Any tech you want to share now and speed things up by 6 months?

Anyway, I would not cut Bone Shredder at this point. The only card that I could see replacing it is Masticore, because both take out Silver Knights, Soltari Priests, and the rest of Angel Stompy. Masticore hits Mom, but Bone Shredder hits Exalted Angel and things wearing SoFI (all this LegoArmyMan already pointed out). As a side note, I live in Portland, with the creator of Angel Stompy. It is certainly a meta concern here. About the only things that aren't killed that see play are Mom, Mystic Enforcer, Troll, and Akroma. FTK only kills Enforcer (sometimes) on that list, and Masticore kills most of them, but with a huge investment. Fire Imp doesn't kill any of them.

[Tao]

The Ohran Vipers are not nessecary. They are a great creature, but Green has tons of strong creatures. I see them on one level with Troll Ascetic.

If you have so much Pro-Red in your Meta and Angels and Dragons I see why run Boneshredder. Though you could maybe replace a Kavu with an Imp for Tempo reasons against Goblins and Confidant decks.

How was your list performing? It looks good. But seeing it on paper I could imagine that you have problems because you have so many x/1 guys. Birds, Confidants and even Werebears are x/1 for a long time. That always trades bad with opposing Fire/Ice and Pyroclasms and it weakens your own Pyroclasms/ Massacre from the board. These also kill your Kavus so you only have 2 Baloth's that live through it on the first turns.

[eclipsemonger]

is scepter-chant played at all in legacy? if it is, i see most of these lists don't have instant speed artifact hate, so don't they just lose? would it be worth it to add some number of krosan grips and/or ancient grudge to the sideboard?

or maybe just run aether vial in the board instead of maindeck, cuz it is useful against scepter-chant, counterspells, and mana denial decks, so it might be worth it.

[hungryboi]

With my experiences, Scepter/Chant has been of a major issue when I play against it. Luckily, I rarely see it. Disruption may be helpful, but if your opponent can get out Scepter/Chant, it's basically over. The only thing that I can see us Survival players doing is to include more Aether Vials since the black disruption is already a given. I feel that Krosan Grips are not viable in the SB since Scepter/Chant is one of the very rare occasions that Krosan is needed.

[eclipsemonger]

in some of these builds with werebear, do you think it is worth testing a devastating dreams in the sideboard to burning wish for? it seems like it could wreck certain decks, and slow goblins down alot by nuking all of their guys and blowing up some of their lands.

[Tacosnape]

in some of these builds with werebear, do you think it is worth testing a devastating dreams in the sideboard to burning wish for?

Ehh. Playing anything that causes you to lose your own lands in Survival probably isn't a good idea. Not to mention that short of Werebear it kills Birds as a mana source, and most threats in the deck, like Witness, Kavu, etc.

(EDIT): I recently build this deck and have had wonderful luck with a Land Grant and a Seeds of Innocence in the wishboard. Land Grant's incredible when your manabase is getting attacked and you desperately need to make your next land drop, and Seeds is easy to play and slaughters Affinity, Stax, and Equipment/Chalice based decks. (And even helps just when you're facing a few too many needles.)

[eclipsemonger]

well right now i'm torn between werebear and wall of roots. i love attacking with werebear, but most of the time i just need mana, and wall of roots helps out with that tremendously.

[Tacosnape]

well right now i'm torn between werebear and wall of roots. i love attacking with werebear, but most of the time i just need mana, and wall of roots helps out with that tremendously.

Pick Werebear.

Werebear fits the bill of the accelerant just fine. It will accelerate you into a turn 3 Kavu/Baloth if you don't have a Survival. It will also serve as a 4/4 Beater in the midgame, and it's not hard to Survival out a bunch of garbage utility creatures, grab three or more threshed Bears, play them, and smash face.

Werebear also improves your control match greatly, as it only takes a mere 5 mana to Genesis back a bear and replay it.

EDIT: I wonder if we might need to start another thread for RGBSA. It's evolved to ridiculous extremes since the early R/G builds. I'll do the Card Choice/Primer thing if nobody else more qualified will. (I don't see a lot of support for it on here.) I've been playing it for awhile now (Among about 18 billion other Survival builds) and it's still my favorite and one of the six decks I keep in my real-life arsenal.

[Di]

EDIT: I wonder if we might need to start another thread for RGBSA. It's evolved to ridiculous extremes since the early R/G builds. I'll do the Card Choice/Primer thing if nobody else more qualified will. (I don't see a lot of support for it on here.) I've been playing it for awhile now (Among about 18 billion other Survival builds) and it's still my favorite and one of the six decks I keep in my real-life arsenal.

I would talk to Dave Price or John Lacasse first, but you're right that this deck could definately use a new thread. The current optimal list isn't even close to what it was at the thread's beginning. (Just to note, there's a difference of around 16 cards in the maindeck from the opening post to what it's at now)


EDIT: Link to new thread:

Current RGBSA thread (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5431)