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Goaswerfraiejen
07-04-2007, 09:19 AM
First, my apologies for taking so long to get this up. I didnít want to post here until the decklist was pretty much finalized (except, of course, the SB), and the matchups much more thoroughly tested. While I will continue testing matchups (especially with different SB configurations and choices), I feel that Iíve provided a strong enough framework to share with you all, now. Some choices will no doubt be changed, some sideboarding techniques refined, but all that is fleshing out that we can do together. Itís time for me to share the refined decklist. If necessary, I'll add further detail to the "How to play the deck" section.


Deck History: This is an evolved version of what I used to think of as BUG Threshold. It started as a direct port to black, with Tombstalker for a finisher and Tarmogoyf for beatz (and Deed for versatility). Unfortunately, the deck felt significantly weaker than its other variants due to the loss of Meddling Mage, Worship, and decent spot-removal.

Clearly, then, the deck needed something more to make it viableóI started experimenting with elements from Gro-a-Tog (ĎTog, Genesis, Wonder) and dredge-based decks, and found that Wild Mongrel could be used to greatly increase consistency. From there, it was a small step to include Intuition and a small base of tutorable utility tools. Thereís been some tinkering since, and what I present to you today is a base list thatís been largely finalized, although there are still a few question marks.

First phase. (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5534)

Second phase. (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5621)

Third Phase. (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5785)

(FYI, this is the deckís fourth distinct incarnation)

Now, a decklist:

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Wasteland
2 Lonely Sandbar
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta

4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Mongrel
1 Psychatog
1 Genesis
1 Wonder
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Tombstalker
1 Gigapede

Sideboard:

4 Stifle
3 Sandstorm
3 Crime//punishment
3 Pithing Needle
1 Tombstalker
1 Savannah

Playing the deck--basics:

Basically, you want an opening hand with at least two lands and a creature (preferably Mongrel or Tarmogoyf), or at least some kind of card-drawing. You can keep one-land hands with a lot of draw, but I just donít trust that on MWS or Apprentice. In real life, maybe. Generally, you want to keep a fairly aggressive strategy early on (as much as your hand will allow) and then switch to a more controlling position when necessary to end the game with a flying alpha strike. Most games will play out as variations on this theme; the important thing is to remember to switch gears; if you donít, you run the risk of being out-aggroed or out-controlled.

Why play this over other Threshold or ĎTog variants? As always, Iíll be honest about my biases, but I believe that this deck is more resilient than typical Threshold, ĎTog, or non-Ichorid Dredge builds, and the reason for this lies in the combination of strategies. TarmoTog begins the game aggressively, much like Threshold (except perhaps a little more aggressiveóyou want those extra points of damage, and you donít need to wait for them very long). It has more (and bigger) creatures, however, and thanks to Genesis it can recur them when it needs to (thus effectively negating most removal). When the aggro strategy starts to wind down, you can easily switch into ĎTog mode and swing for a bazillion (ish) with a flying Psychatog (or just cinch the deal with Tombstalker). Also, the dependence on the graveyard is significantly less than in most Threshold or ĎTog decks for a few reasons:

1.) By and large, your creatures donít suck without a graveyard (at least, not as much).

2.) Because you have both a cantrip engine and a dredge engine, recovering from temporary graveyard hate is much easier (youíve also got Deed and Punishment for Leylines and Planar Void, although obviously it would be better not to depend on these).

3.) The deck packs far more aggression than ĎTog typically does, and so doesnít rely on a huge swing with ĎTogóthe ĎTog swing is just one option among many (that are often equal).


As far as more traditional Psychatog builds are concerned, my problem with them has usually been that they arenít quite aggressive enough (at least, not for my tasteóI donít feel comfortable running 6-8 creatures in a format rife with removal); what I like even less is the reliance on a single massive swing (eggs, basket, etc.). Granted, Iím an aggro kind of guy--on the other hand, StP (which any Legacy deck with at least a white splashóand there are a lot--is bound to run) really sucks when you only run two or three real threats. This deck has a further advantage in that Pithing Needle is not very effective as a hate card, since the deck does not depend on any of the valid targets to an inordinate degree (Psychatog, Mongrel, Jitte, or Deed) and can side them out.

Sure, Psychatog decks have a scary number of counterspellsóbut these cards are reactive, and leave the deck largely defenceless if and when something punches through. While TarmoTog retains a minimum of counter-power, it relies more on Deed and Punishment to clear the way for lethal attacks/whatever. Itís also obviously much more aggressive (especially initially) than ĎTog decks are and therein, I think, lies its greatest strength: TarmoTogís creatures can all win the game on their own (i.e. without the ďfinishersĒ). You donít need Psychatog or Mystic Enforcer (in this case, Tombstalker) to win the gameóyou can punch through with Mongrels/íGoyfs/whatever. Indeed, Iíve found that a number of games are resolved without a finisher (ĎTog or ĎStalker) ever touching the table. In large part, of course, this is due to the fact that Tarmogoyf is essentially a finisher for IG.

SoÖ yes, Iím biased toward my creation. On the other hand, I think that it embodies the best of both worlds (Threshold and Tog), and I feel that the result is well worth noting. The deckís composition gives it strong options in role assignment, and indeed allows it to switch roles at pretty much any point in a gameóyou can be aggro when you need to be, and you can be more controlling when thatís whatís required, but the best thing (in my opinion) about the deck is its ability to apply tremendous early pressure and then simply sit back and turtle through the opponentís riposte until a kill can be set up.

Why not BUG Threshold? Like I said earlier, this deck originated as a Black-based Threshold port. I found that it lost too much, however, and that its gains eventually compromised its aggression (ex. Deed is counterproductive with Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose). Losing Meddling Mage is also a huge blow. I just didnít feel comfortable with the roles that the replacements were fulfilling (ex. Ghastly Demise for Swords to Plowshares). This deck functions in largely the same way as BUG Threshold, but its dependencies are reduced and the synergies have been increased, and the net result is, I think, a deck that is simply better. The most significant loss is that of Nimble Mongoose, but Gigapede now plays a similar role. I certainly wouldnít mind a few Mongeese, but thatís another story.

How it works: Well, this part is pretty straightforward, especially for people who are familiar with Psychatog and Threshold. Open with a cantrip, follow up with a creature (hopefully Mongrel or Tarmogoyf), and continue to cantrip/cast creatures at your leisure while you beat face. Once your creatures start having a harder time getting through, switch into your control elements; that is, dig for Genesis/Wonder/Deed/Tombstalker and counter what you canít answer. Generally, your hardest matchups are against combo (because, initially, you havenít got much), but you can fight through. Donít hesitate to shift gears (from aggro to control, or whatever) to keep your opponent off-balance long enough to kill him. The longer the game drags on against combo, the better your chancesóalthough, to be fair, that goes for most decks.

The deckís initial games are mostly favourable, since few decks run hate in the main deck. The biggest problem the deck faces is splash hate, since graveyard hate and Pithing Needle all work against it. Iíve tried to minimize this kind of hateís effect on the deck (by giving it a quick graveyard recovery system and a certain independence from the grave, as well as by giving it alternative finishers), and these measures are certainly successfulónonetheless, the problem remains. That means that your second and third games will be harder, but I think that the deck has enough initial resilience that clever sideboarding (and in-game gear-shifting) will prove to be enough of a defense. In testing, this has certainly been the case. In fact, the only piece of hate that should really worry you is Leyline of the Void, and itís become much rarer now that Flash is gone.

Single Card Discussion:

Genesis - Single-handedly negates most removal, thus allowing you to make aggressive openings (trading with whatever your removal canít touch, etc.). Genesis-based recursion also makes it so that youíre running more creatures than you really are, thus making Jitte all the more effective.

Wonder - As in more traditional Psychatog builds, Wonder is here to prevent stalemates and to allow for lethal attacks.

Tombstalker - Often questioned. Usually, the complaint is that he eats the graveyard. What most of his detractors fail to realise, however, is that TarmoTogís graveyard is a resource, unlike Threshold, where itís a necessity (even a crutch). Ghastly Demise can suffer under Tombstalker, but by the time you cast this bugger you should have used mostóor you should have the ability to cantrip/dredge into a graveyard. Tarmogoyf doesnít much care because he feeds on your opponentís graveyard as well (in fact, Tarmogoyf is the key to winning against Fish decks with Leyline of the Void, since heíll still be bigger than their stuff). Your dredge engines are there for two reasons: to feed Tombstalker and Psychatog, and to dominate the late game through recursion. You should, of course, try to keep at least a single dredger in there if you can)óin any case, you can recover your grave quickly enough. Heís a healthy alternative finisher (rather than Psychatog), since he flies without Wonder. Ultimately, when you play Tombstalker, youíre playing him to winóat that point, whatís in the grave is less relevant (either because thereís more than enough in there, or because you just need a fattie with evasion).

Tarmogoyf - Better than Werebear in every way, reduces dependence on my own graveyard; probably the single most important card in the deck. ĎNuff said.

Gigapede Ė Quality beatstick that canít be hit with targeted removal (like Swords to Plowshares!). Has the added advantage of recurring without Genesis, and acting as a discard outlet. Has proven invaluable, although Trample/more toughness would be nice. To be honest, Gigapede is probably the single most important addition to the current version of the deckóheís just been amazing. Most of the time, when you cast Intuition youíll want to grab Gigapede, Genesis/Wonder, and something else. If the wrong card gets returned, you can just Gigapede it away, even without a Mongrel or Psychatog. Otherwise, youíve got a bloody scary insect on the way.

Psychatog - A secondary or even tertiary strategy option. If the smaller ones canít quite punch through, use Psychatog to crush the defences. Also acts as a fifth Mongrel. How useful is it really? I often find myself using Tombstalker in its stead, but I think that, if nothing else, itís important as Mongrel #5. Definitely a removal magnet, but very useful nonetheless. Sometimes I think of cutting it, but Iíve always decided against it; the raw power and the utility are simply to significant to ignore.

Ghastly Demise - The weakest slot in the deck, since it canít target black creatures and is also dependent on your graveyard. Vendetta is the only other real in-colour option, but I dislike the life loss (since Demise is best used against fatties). Smother would work, but the extra mana requirement is a significant hindrance, plus it canít get rid of anything particularly large and threatening (weenies are easily dealt with, what with your ginormous creatures and all).

Life from the Loam Ė Helps you skirt LD strategies, feeds the grave (acting as a draw engine even without Lonely Sandbar), recurs Wasteland, and pumps Mongrel and Psychatog.

Pernicious Deed - Too important not to play. Deed is both a wrath-effect and more pinpointed removal, and clearing the board is always goodóespecially since you can just use Genesis to put the fat back on the table. Deed is the bane of Legacyís lower tiers, and that alone is a great reason to run it. Destroying hate is awesome.

Stinkweed Imp Ė Recurring removal, creature, graveyard-filler (engine), etc.


Sideboard:


Tombstalker - Sometimes, a more independent finisher is better than Psychatog or whatever other creature. Also works to negate Needleís effect on you. Sometimes, two are better than one.

Sandstorm Ė Replaces Engineered Explosives. I was mostly using the Explosives to destroy goblins from EtW, but the Explosives often come online a little too slow to make the difference they need to make. Yes, they're versatile, but I already have Deed to sweep the board, and too often EE has become a replacement for targeted removal--in other words, not so great. So, I've replaced it with Sandstorm to increase the chances of beating EtW-based combo, and also because Sandstorm is much more effective than EE against Goblins (hell, at worst, it kills a first-turn Lackey). Besides, nobody expects it. :wink:

Crime//punishment Ė My sideboard seemed to lack versatile mass removal when I took out Engineered Explosives for Sandstorm, and so my thoughts turned to these. They can go in for Deed when Pithing Needle/Meddling Mage is expected, or they can be played in conjunction with Deed for some serious hate. Sometimes, the fact that they can be played slightly faster is preferable to Deed being an enchantment. Crime presents an interesting extra option (but only that: using it as a Deed should be your and its primary task), and one Iíve been testing out by including a single Savannah in the board. The question, of course, is whether this is simply a nod toward ďcool things,Ē or a meaningful addition to the deck.

Savannah Ė Replaces Wasteland in matches where itís irrelevant, less useful, or when you might want to use Crime. Alternately, it replaces Lonely Sandbar. I plugged in a Savannah rather than a basic Plains because if you draw it (rather than fetching it), you want to be able to play your key creatures. Hence also why I favoured it over Scrubland or Tundra. Iím wondering if these might not just be more useful than Lonely Sandbar, however.

Pithing Needle - Only really necessary against 'Belcher: FoW, Daze, Stifle, or Pernicious Deed (or Punishment) can help to take care of the rest. Jitte also takes care of opposing Jittes. Along with Deeds and Punishment, it should really shore up the Belcher matchup.


Tried or Suggested (but dismissed):

Nimble Mongoose: Unique in this section insofar as that Iíd love to be able to include a few of these once more. Itís a quality beatstick thatís especially useful in block Goblin Lackey, itís easily recurred via Genesis, and itís bloody hard to remove. Gigapede currently fills a similar role as an untargetable beatstick, but his ability to become a discard engine is more valuable. Nonetheless, Iíd really love to see a full complement of these make their way inóor at least 2-3. Iím just not sure if itís possible (read: ideal). The only possible creature slots that it could occupy are the two filled by Psychatog and Tombstalker, but Iím not convinced that that would be a good move.

Berserk: Just a win-more card. Itís more useful in typical Tog lists, which tend to be creature-light (well, lighter). Sure, using it on Mongrel/Tog/Goyf is attractive, but itís unnecessary since youíll be applying pressure from the very start. It will help you win a turn earlier, but thatís not really enough to justify itís inclusion over something else. Besides, itís expensive.

Engineered Explosives Ė Great sweeper, but I was mostly using it to sweep Goblin tokens. Sandstorm does that better. As for general sweepers, Iíve now got Punishment, which I think is generally better despite being a sorcery.

Big Game Hunter Ė Great extra removal, good synergy with my discard outlets. As a singleton, useful in fairly specific circumstances. Iíve got Crime//Punishment now, however.

Engineered Plague Ė At first glance, a no-brainer in the sideboard. Unfortunately, itís not as useful as one might hope: without Ritual, the mana commitment is intensive, and difficult to manage when trying to play around Wasteland/Port lockdown from Goblins. In its stead, Iíve chosen to rely largely on Sandstorm to get rid of miscellaneous 1/1s and tokens. Itís obviously not as good, but it works well enough in conjunction with the big beaters. Itís too bad that Plague doesnít work so well--it would really make the Goblins matchup stellar. Some may still want to include it, but I feel that EtW-based combo decks pose a much larger threat to the deck, and Sandstorm and Crime//Punishment are both better suited to dealing with that than Plague is.


Some matchups:

Goblins: Even or a little better, pre-board. You have a much better intial matchup than either Threshold or Tog due to your increased fat and sweepers. Start by beating face for a couple turns, and then you should arrive at a stalemate. Attack (and block) carefully while you wait for Genesis, Wonder, Tombstalker, Psychatog, or Deed to give you an advantage. Post-board, you gain Sandstorm and perhaps Crime//punishment (thatís up to youóI prefer Deed, since it hits more, but Crime//Punishment could prove useful) to complement your Deeds, which ultimately really turn the matchup in your favour. I also like to replace Psychatog with the Tombstalker, which doesnít need to wait to fly and has a higher initial toughness. Bringing in Stifle for Daze can also be a good move. A first-turn Lackey is the biggest threat when playing against Goblinsóyouíre going to have a hard time dealing with it if it brings in a Siege-Gang or something. Still, if you donít panic, youíre quite capable of turning the tablesóas long as you put some kind of creature on the table fairly soon. I myself have recovered from slow starts a number of times (and Iím not such a great player), but I wonít lie: it isnít easy, and such a situation is far from favourable. My sideboarding choices are pretty simple, really: Sandstorm as a Lackey and token answer (unless you draw two!), Needle for Siege-Gang Commander, Tombstalker because heís beefy (and therefore hard to remove) and flies without Wonder, and Savannah because itís better than Lonely Sandbar. Gigapede goes out simply because heíll die to a weenie, which sucks for a five-mana drop. Likewise, Daze goes out because it doesnít do much versus Vial, and you could use the slot for something more pro-active.

+3 Sandstorm
+3 Pithing Needle (or Crime//Punishment)
+1 Tombstalker
+1 Savannah

-3 Daze
-1 Gigapede
-1 Psychatog
-1 Serum Visions* (not sure if thereís something better to take out)
-1 Brainstorm* (not sure if thereís something better to take out)
-1 Lonely Sandbar


The EPIC Storm: An ugly matchup, initially. With Deed, you might be able to force your opponent into a Tendrils-win if you can stall long enough with Fow/Daze, but it will only get you so far. I expect to lose game one. For subsequent games, however, your chances are strong. Just remember that you can stack Sandstorm so that it will kill both Xantid Swarm and Goblins, but you wonít be able to cast anything else that turn (shouldnít be a problem, though, since so many resources will have been expended on Goblin tokens; if your opponent is reaching for a Tendrils kill, however, Sandstorm wonít help). Watch out for Goblin War Strike, since it can make things a little sticky.

+4 Stifle
+3 Sandstorm
+3 Crime//punishment
+1 Savannah

-3 Umezawaís Jitte
-3 Intuition
-1 Genesis
-1 Wonder
-1 Stinkweed Imp
-1 Gigapede
-1 Lonely Sandbar


Threshold: Generally favourable. Expect to take some losses early in the game (to counterspells and so on), but as the game progresses, your odds get better and betteróand the game canít help but to progress, since each and every one of your creatures (barring Wonder, if itís not in the graveyard) is a bigger threat than their own. Usually, you can just sit tight with just a Mongrel or Tarmogoyf to block things and keep a small army (say, two Mongeese and a Werebear or perhaps even a Tarmogoyf) at bay. Tarmogoyf is their biggest threat against you; use Ghastly Demise on it. Gigapede is an all-star in this matchup, since enemy burn and Swords to Plowshares canít touch itóand Mages are unlikely to ever name it. Your first Intuition should fetch it out along with Genesis and either Wonder or Stinkweed Imp, whatever the situation calls for, and everything will be peachy. Your opponent is likely to expend StPs early, so use that to your advantageóa StPed Imp sucks, but whatever. Your better creatures and mass removal should ultimately prove too much to contend with when coupled with timely counterspells. Expect Pithing Needles to name Jitte and/or Deed (Whichever you played in the first game; if both were played, the first Needle or Mage will likely hit Deed) in subsequent games, and prepare accordingly. I like to side out Jitte for Crime//Punishment because of opposing Needles, but Ghastly Demise could also come out for it.

+3 Crime//Punishment
+1 Savannah

-3 Umezawaís Jitte/Ghastly Demise
-1 Lonely Sandbar

Countersliver: Hard matchup, often decided early on. With an active Mongrel or Tarmogoyf, you can hold the bastards at bay for some time; you really want Tarmogoyf, though. The tricky thing is not getting overwhelmed before you can clear the board and start killing your opponent. Accordingly, you need to stall the early game. That means keeping Mongrel as a blocker (you opponent will be reluctant to swing into it without two Muscle/Sinew Slivers or a lot of other slivers), and hoping to resolve Tarmogoyf to do the same. You want to try to counter Crystalline Sliver so that you can still remove stuff with Ghastly Demise. Unfortunately, your opponent also has counterspells, so you need to prioritize: should you protect Tarmogoyf, or Deed? These are decisions that youíll have to make yourself. Post-board, lose Ghastly Demise in favour of Crime//Punishment. You probably wont want to use Crime, but the Savannah is important to speed you up.

+3 Crime//Punishment
+1 Savannah

-3 Ghastly Demise
-1 Lonely Sandbar



IggyPop: Easier to deal with than other storm-combo decks, since your counters are actually useful (countering either Ill-Gotten Gains or the tutor reaching for it, etc.). Still, game one could be uglyóespecially since IggyPop sometimes runs Empty the Warrens now. Afterwards, you gain Stifle and Sandstorm, which should even things out for you.

+4 Stifle
+3 Sandstorm
+2 Crime//punishment
+1 Savannah

-3 Pernicious Deed
-3 Ghastly Demise
-1 Stinkweed Imp
-1 Wonder
-1 Genesis
-1 Lonely Sandbar

Solidarity: Without Stifle, donít expect to win this one. Even then, victory is less than certainóunless, of course, Solidarity fizzles. Game one, try to counter High Tide, Reset, or Cunning Wish (youíre not likely to succeed, of course) in the hope that it will make your opponent fizzle. Below, youíll see I board in Needleóyes, I know itís not very useful. On the other hand, it can at least sometimes do something to slow the deck down, and itís more useful against Solidarity than anything youíre taking out.

-3 Ghastly Demise
-3 Pernicious Deed
-1 Stinkweed Imp
-1 Wasteland

+1 Tombstalker
+1 Savannah
+2 Pithing Needle
+4 Stifle


Faerie Stompy: Usually a pretty exciting match. The amount of removal that you run will pose problems for Faerie Stompy, but FS can easily break out Chalice and Pithing Needle to slow you down. Needle is especially unfortunate since Deed and Mongrel are the real all-stars in this matchup (Psychatog too, but Mongrel comes out faster). Counter Needle whenever possible, and you should be OK. Chalice at one only hurts you because you lose Ghastly Demise and half of your draw engine (Dredge being the other half). Remember that you can still play Brainstorm/Serum Visions, theyíll just go straight to your graveyard (and into your Tarmogoyf). If your opponent manages to set a Chalice at twoÖ well, youíre in serious trouble unless youíve got the better board position. If you can get beyond the first few turns without having to face down 2-3 huge fliers with nothing of your own, you are favoured to win. FSí biggest asset in this fight is its explosive speed early on; its greatest weakness is its tenuous creature base. Often, you donít really need to even counter SoFIóyou can just destroy every creature that might wear it. Counter it if you canóIím just saying that it wonít end your world. Oh, and this is one matchup where Crime (oh Gilded Drake, where are you?) is pretty useful.

+3 Crime//punishment
+3 Pithing Needle
+1 Savannah
+1 Tombstalker

-3 Umezawaís Jitte (you might not always want to board this out; depends on the build you face)
-3 Pernicious Deed
-1 Psychatog
-1 Gigapede


Reanimator: Big, flying pro-black (and black) things are NOT good. Deed, Daze, and FoW, however, ARE (but Deed is not very useful in this matchup, unfortunately). Expect a fight, game one. For subsequent games, Stinkweed Imp, the extra Psychatog, and Tombstalker should make things more favourable for you. Youíll also want to use Crime, if possibleómeaning that you need to live that long.

+3 Crime//Punishment
+1 Savannah
+1 Tombstalker
+1 Psychatog

-3 Pernicious Deed
-1 Lonely Sandbar
-1 Wild Mongrel
-1 Gigapede


Ichorid: See Reanimator (except with Punishment instead of Stifle, and with much lower odds on your success); Iíd basically call this an auto-loss. Hell, Iíve pretty much stopped trying to win. Without graveyard hate in the SB, you just arenít likely to win against an opponent thatís familiar with his deck. I figure that your best chance is if your opponent decks himself, but the odds are against you if this happens, since heíll likely overwhelm you. Sandstorm will buy you a turn. Maybe you can use Crime to steal something permanent, who knows (unlikely, given the mana requirement)? You wonít need your counters, but Stifle might be useful versus Bridge or some of the creatures. Unfortunately, Ichorid seems to be gaining in popularity, which may well mean that you will need to devote some sideboard slots to hate it out (Leyline of the Void, since other decks suffer splash-hate from it). I would imagine that Pithing Needle is what you can most afford to take out (since Deed and Punishment sort of substitute for it), and if you replace a Lonely Sandbar with a Savannah, that gives you the necessary fourth slot.

+4 Stifle
+3 Crime//Punishment
+3 Sandstorm
+1 Savannah

-4 Force of Will
-3 Daze
-3 Ghastly Demise
-1 Lonely Sandbar


CRET Belcher: Win some, lose some. You need to counter Belcher to win. In fact, youíll probably lose game oneóespecially since your opponent is likely to use Empty the Warrens. For subsequent games, you gain Stifle, Crime//punishment, Pithing Needle, and Sandstorm, and these should help immensely. Even then, however, this is no bye. Initially, you may be just as well off countering mana.

+4 Stifle
+3 Crime//punishment
+3 Pithing Needle
+3 Sandstom
+1 Savannah
+1 Tombstalker

-3 Ghastly Demise
-3 Umezawaís Jitte
-3 Intuition
-1 Lonely Sandbar
-1 Stinkweed Imp
-1 Genesis
-1 Wonder
-1 Gigapede
-1 Wild Mongrel


Burn: Generally favourable. You can counter whatever extras point your way. Aim to resolve and activate Umezawaís Jitteóto do so should win you the game. Also aim to make your opponent feel that s/he should burn your creatures (thatís a mistake, unless death is imminent). Bring in Pithing Needle for Ghastly Demise, and use it to name Barbarian Ring (unless, of course, the deck youíre facing runs some critters like Ball Lightning). Hey, itís better than nothing. Also bring in Stifle and a Tombstalker for Deed, since you never knowómaybe you can Stifle a fetchland, or something.

+3 Pithing Needle
+2 Stifle
+1 Tombstalker

-3 Ghastly Demise
-3 Pernicious Deed


Moon Vineyard RG Beatdown (or whatever you want to call it): Favourable. Try not to let Magus of the Moon resolve. Even if he does, the Vineyards will give you the green mana that you need to win. Gigapede is a house. You could also take out Deed for Crime//Punishment, just to give you an edge against Needle (and to grab as Ascetic or something if you can hold off Blood Moon effects!). Your own Needles should hit Sword of Fire and Ice first, then Troll Ascetic.

+3 Crime//Punishment
+3 Pithing Needle
+1 Savannah

-3 Pernicious Deed
-1 Lonely Sandbar
-1 Psychatog
-1 Tombstalker

Various Stax Builds: Slightly unfavourable to yucky, depending on the build. Youíll want to counter Smokestack and Trinisphere (less important), and use Wasteland liberally on the manabase. A single safe fatty will win you the game, but youíll need to hold its hand the whole way through.

Random decks: You should crush most of these, largely thanks to Deed and, later, Crime//Punishment.

Some Issues:

Lonely Sandbar Ė How good is it, really? Iíve noticed that I almost always side one out for a Savannah to speed things up (it really sucks when itís one of the two lands in your opening hand). Myself, I havenít been too impressed--before, everyone was clamouring for their inclusion, saying that the deckís draw was insufficient (which it isnít, considering that Dredge is also a draw engine of sorts). Having one every once in a while to dredge on is nice, but two? I really, really want to replace one with a Savannah and just call it a day, opening one more SB slot. I realize, however, that Iím not wholly objective on this point, so you tell me: how has it played out in your own testing?

NOTES:


Q: There are currently lands, creatures, and sorceries in both players' graveyards, so my Tarmogoyf is 3/4. What happens when it gets targeted by Sudden Death?

A: You will have one fairly lethargic, but living, Tarmogoyf.

State-based effectsóthose wonderful bits of rules that do things like cause you to lose the game, clean up Auras that are no longer attached to anything, and destroy creatures with lethal damageóalso whisk away creatures with 0 toughness to the appropriate graveyard. However, SBEs aren't checked during the resolution of a spell or ability, but instead wait until after they've completely finished resolving and a player would gain priority again.

The last part of a spell's resolution is putting it into its owner's graveyard. Tarmogoyf is constantly rummaging around in people's graveyards trying to figure out how powerful it is (good thing it has eight fingers, otherwise it might have trouble with that). So by the time state-based effects are checked, the Sudden Death is already in its owner's graveyard and the Tarmogoyf has already gotten the go-ahead to pump itself up. The end result will be a 0/1 Tarmogoyf until the cleanup step, at which time it becomes a 4/5 again.

I can guarantee that such situations will come up, and they can really decide the game.

The Djinn
07-04-2007, 11:30 AM
I think I rather like this deck, nice list :smile:

I'm wondering, however, have you tested Eternal Witness? It seems to me that you sometimes wish to recur a dead Deed or Jitte or maybe go nuts with a repeated Ghastly Demise. Witness has nice synergy with Genesis/Intuition as well. I must admit I haven't read the other 3 threads about this deck, so maybe it's discussed before, excuse me if that's true :wink:

Mordenkain
07-06-2007, 06:43 AM
Nice job Goaswerfraiejen. You have really put some soul into this now. :)

Anyways, I would like to ask, have you taken it to any tournaments lately? Would love to see a report on this.

A little concern I might have: To few beaters. I know that you run Genesis, but only running one and three Intuitions doesn't make it reliable enough IMO. As far as I can understand, you have to draw a starting hand consisting of Goyf/Mongrel and a balance of removal/counters, while not drawing excessive amount of non-relevant cards in the early game, like Tombstalker, Gigapede, etc.

From my experience, that tactic is very hard to depend on. Personally I run as often as I can, at least 8-10 of a card type I want in my start hand. Want a beater in the start hand? I'll say run 12 or so, especially because beaters are easily removed.

What if your opponent Extirpates Genesis? Sorry to say this, but to me it seems you have a hard time to keep up your defenses against creature decks that pack fast removal (even worse if they run Extirpate as well).

Oh, and btw, IMO Portent > Serum Visions. Portent have the advantage to dig one deeper overall, and is able to be used as an offensive tool as well, while early game being able to stailize your board.

That will be it for now. Hope you can use my thougts.

- Mordenkain

Hanni
07-06-2007, 09:12 AM
From my previous testing with other versions of DAT in the past, a 1-of Cephalid Coliseum is really strong. It allows you to Intuition for Genesis and Wonder and discard them both even without a discard outlet. I see that you utilize Gigapede instead... I guess that works too. Cephalid is also fairly strong with Loam when you draw 3 fresh cards to replace 2-3 lands in hand. 2 Lonely Sandbar 1 Coliseum was always my draw engine configuration with Loam.

Another thing I found when testing this deck is that you really want that 4th Intuition. Casting Intuition sets the entire deck up. I know the deck doesn't need the Loam engine online, but it's really nice to be able to make consistent land drops and such.

I'm not sure I agree with Jitte and Deed in the same pick. I'd probably choose 1 or the other... since this deck utilizes Genesis, I'd probably drop the Jitte.

Gigapede seems pointless with Genesis, though using it as a discard outlet seems like it works too.

Tombstalker is nice, but the deck should get flying via Wonder, and the deck has Tog as a finisher. I'd probably cut this.

In replace, I'd put Mongoose. Mongoose is just really really good in Aggro DAT.

The only other thing that I don't like is the 1 Tog. I know the deck can grab it with Intuition and Genesis it back if need be, but the fact that Tog just wins games would make me want more than 1. Not sure what else I'd cut though, and you seem like you have enough aggro to win without Tog anyway.

BreathWeapon
07-06-2007, 01:09 PM
Considering that this list uses Intuition and Life from the Loam with little emphasis on black, I'm wondering whether or not Tog could be cut for Terravore and black could be cut for white so the deck gets access to Swords to Plowshares, Meddling Mage, Solitary Confinement and Nantuko Monastery. The Pernicious Deeds could be replaced with Intuition, Life from the Loam, Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives for removal and Solitary Confinement is just as good at stabilizing the board if the deck is going to get Wonder and win in the air.

I'd be all over Merchant Scroll and Mox Diamond in this to.

Goaswerfraiejen
07-09-2007, 10:51 AM
I'm wondering, however, have you tested Eternal Witness? It seems to me that you sometimes wish to recur a dead Deed or Jitte or maybe go nuts with a repeated Ghastly Demise. Witness has nice synergy with Genesis/Intuition as well. I must admit I haven't read the other 3 threads about this deck, so maybe it's discussed before, excuse me if that's true :wink:

I'm surprised that I didn't think about it before, but you're right: even just a single Eternal Witness could go a long way to reusing spent cards. Indeed, I've sometimes run into situations where I would have loved to be able to recur something. I doubt I can find room in the deck for very many, but even just a single one to be dredged away/caught out with Intuition would probably be very, very good. I'll make room for a loner. Thank you.




Anyways, I would like to ask, have you taken it to any tournaments lately? Would love to see a report on this.

Unfortunately, no. I live in an area without much of a Magic scene, let alone a Legacy scene. I'm hoping to be around (and have the time to attend) for a few small Legacy events in Montreal, but I'm not counting on it. Nevertheless, I've been on the lookout for Apprentice/MWS tournies, since at least that's something. Just waiting for one I can participate in.


A little concern I might have: To few beaters. I know that you run Genesis, but only running one and three Intuitions doesn't make it reliable enough IMO. As far as I can understand, you have to draw a starting hand consisting of Goyf/Mongrel and a balance of removal/counters, while not drawing excessive amount of non-relevant cards in the early game, like Tombstalker, Gigapede, etc.

The most important thing in your opening hand is to have two lands and a beater, or some kind of draw. My own concern in this department is that the Apprentice and MWS shufflers aren't accurately representing my opening draws, since I seldom have trouble beyond mulliganing once or twice. I agree that fitting in more would be good, I'm just unsure as to what it should replace.



What if your opponent Extirpates Genesis? Sorry to say this, but to me it seems you have a hard time to keep up your defenses against creature decks that pack fast removal (even worse if they run Extirpate as well).

Extirpate on Genesis sucks, but it's no worse than Tormod's Crypt on a graveyard with it and Wonder in it. When that happens, you just have to turn to what you draw--especially your reusables (Imp and Gigapede). Extirpate tends to hit Genesis targets more often than Genesis/Wonder themselves--granted, maybe that's just a function of the calibre of my opponents. To be honest, at this point, one-sided graveyard hate/removal worries me less than extensive creature destruction complemented by Swords to Ploswshares.


Oh, and btw, IMO Portent > Serum Visions. Portent have the advantage to dig one deeper overall, and is able to be used as an offensive tool as well, while early game being able to stailize your board.

[/QUOTE]


Portent is certainly something I'll need to test out. What attracts me to Serum Visions at present is that it can thin out my library (so to speak) and thereby increase my chances of drawing certain cards--if I need a land, for example, I can send two non-lands to the bottom and, as far as drawing a land is concerned, it's like I've just drawn three cards. Shuffling your library, on the other hand, is like resetting everything. At present, I feel that the number of fetches is more than enough to reset when necessary. In any case, I'll certainly give it a spin, since they're so similar, functionally.


From my previous testing with other versions of DAT in the past, a 1-of Cephalid Coliseum is really strong. It allows you to Intuition for Genesis and Wonder and discard them both even without a discard outlet. I see that you utilize Gigapede instead... I guess that works too. Cephalid is also fairly strong with Loam when you draw 3 fresh cards to replace 2-3 lands in hand. 2 Lonely Sandbar 1 Coliseum was always my draw engine configuration with Loam.

Actually, I like the idea of Cephalid Coliseum quite a bit--better than Lonely Sandbar, to be honest, but that's probably just a bias. It'll basically be a reusable draw spell without much of a drawback. I definitely need to try it.


Another thing I found when testing this deck is that you really want that 4th Intuition. Casting Intuition sets the entire deck up. I know the deck doesn't need the Loam engine online, but it's really nice to be able to make consistent land drops and such.

What I disliked about the fourth Intuition was that it was so often dead--that is to say, I wasn't running many one-or-so-ofs to fetch with it, and often I didn't want to cast it to grab my multiples (Jitte, Deed, etc.) because I had no way to recur them, and drawing them later on was more important. If I include Coliseum, Witness, and company, however, it's worth revisiting the fourth Intuition. At present, I cut the fourth for a third Deed.


I'm not sure I agree with Jitte and Deed in the same pick. I'd probably choose 1 or the other... since this deck utilizes Genesis, I'd probably drop the Jitte.

That may well in fact be a fair assessment. I will try it out. Or even (and this may just be too cute) just a single Jitte with an Eternal Witness.



Tombstalker is nice, but the deck should get flying via Wonder, and the deck has Tog as a finisher. I'd probably cut this.

I have just one concern with a single Wonder, and that's what happens when one-sided Graveyard hate hits. Losing Wonder to Tormod's Crypt is going to be pretty serious, since it can cause a huge stalemate. Tombstalker is essentially Psychatog but with Flying and a permanent butt and without the discard capability (he removes up to six cards, which would give Psychatog +3/+3, making it a 4/5). To be honest, it's the 'Tog that doesn't prove spectacular--simply because there's often no real need to make him huge. On the other hand, he's a removal magnet because, if he isn't dealt with, he spells DOOM. I realize that it seems random, but I'm happy with that configuration at the moment. It's an issue that I revisit over and over, however.

What I especially like is how you've found room for me to run Nimble Mongoose. Especially since I finally finished my playset. :wink: :smile:



There's a fair bit more testing to be done, but I think that we're really hammering out a VERY strong deck.



Considering that this list uses Intuition and Life from the Loam with little emphasis on black, I'm wondering whether or not Tog could be cut for Terravore and black could be cut for white so the deck gets access to Swords to Plowshares, Meddling Mage, Solitary Confinement and Nantuko Monastery. The Pernicious Deeds could be replaced with Intuition, Life from the Loam, Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives for removal and Solitary Confinement is just as good at stabilizing the board if the deck is going to get Wonder and win in the air.

I'd be all over Merchant Scroll and Mox Diamond in this to.

I've often considered cutting black altogether in favour of white (red would be a mistake, I think, albeit a sexy one), but ultimately that would just be TerraGeddon/Loam Confiment. Now, I love those decks to death, but I think that there's something worth pursuing here, in this black splash.

Thanks for the comments. I'll get back to everything once I've had the chance to fit in the Witness and see if Mongeese work better than Jitte.

4eak
07-09-2007, 12:53 PM
It has that interesting ability to easily switch between control and aggro roles, and the draw engine + pseudo-toolbox can really shine.

After playing around and looking at the suggestions, I adjusted it a little bit, and here is what I have:

-=17 Mana Sources/Land (not including draw-land)=-
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta

-=16 Draw Engine=-
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
2 Serum Visions
1 Life from the Loam
1 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Lonely Sandbar

-=13 Control=-
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
3 Ghastly Demise
1 Stinkweed Imp
3 Pernicious Deed

-=14 Beats=-
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Psychatog
1 Gigapede
1 Wonder

Changes from your original list:

+1 Cephalid Coliseum
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Intuition
+1 Eternal Witness
+3 Nimble Mongoose
-2 Serum Visions
-3 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Daze
-1 Tombstalker


+1 Cephalid Coliseum: No need to really explain this one.

+1 Tropical Island: Even with your cantrip count, I don't feel comfortable going below 20 total mana sources (including the draw-land). If you don't mind 19 land, then stick with 19 of course. With mongoose in the board, I felt it was better to have a slightly better chance of opening with green.

+1 Intuition: This is the real engine of the deck. From goldfishing, I felt it was a necessary card to see within 4 turns. I especially like how you can 2-drop a creature and intuition into gas.

+1 Eternal Witness: A strong pick. Genesis+Witness is a house. Recursion is fairly powerful, and I think it is too synergistic with the Intuition/Discard/Dredge theme not to run at least one. Consider this going to 2 even.

+3 Nimble Mongoose: This is a great aggro card. Obviously, you aren't playing thresh, but this card still belongs. Consider this going to 4 (I had a hard time making room).

-2 Serum Visions: Serum visions is a good card, but I don't like it in this deck. I think there could be better options if you are intent on sticking to 8 1cc cantrips. For now, I cut them to make some room.

-3 Umezawa's Jitte: powerful card. It needs to be run in multiples or none at all usually (although e-witness helps). Jitte and PD can't be in the same deck, and deed seemed stronger.

-1 Daze: Making room.

-1 Tombstalker: I honestly just wasn't impressed with this card in this deck. Don't get me wrong, I think stalker is great in the right deck, and it certainly was good in your deck, but it didn't do anything overly special. Tog did the job just fine.

Other random comments:

I do have to say, because the deck can be somewhat toolboxy with many 1-of's, I felt that GY hate really hurt this deck a lot more than other more redundant GY-based decks.

Gigapede is an interesting card. I'm not totally set on its inclusion, but it can be very useful. It is definitely a niche card.

With Intuition and Ltfl, you can consider other utility land cards as well.

Anyways, nice deck.

peace,
4eak

thefreakaccident
07-09-2007, 02:30 PM
I know that I am basically the only person on the source that would endorse this idea, but why not run Accumulate knowledge?

you already have 1/2 of the engine with intuition, you can also draw a lot mid-late game with early game dredge engine (in AKs) and then play a single 1 to draw 3-4 cards (refills your hand for 2 mana)... I think that it would be perfect for this deck, but that could be just me.

4eak
07-09-2007, 02:52 PM
why not run Accumulate knowledge?


What would make AK better than the current draw engine?

1.) Instant speed
2.) Less mana intensive
3.) Easier on the color curve
4.) Recurring Witness->AK is cool
5.) Unlike LftL, it doesn't replace your draw step.
6.) Arguably less cogs with more independently usable cards.

How is it not as good?

1.) Without Witness, Int/AK is really a one time use. LtfL, on the other hand, is constant.
2.) It doesn't put junk in the GY as easily (dredge) etc.
3.) Intuition often grabs the TnT rather than CAdv.
4.) AK can die to permission, LtFL+Cycling does not.

If you did run Int/AK, what would you take out for AK?

peace,
4eak

Hanni
07-09-2007, 04:18 PM
U/G/b Dredge A Tarmogoyf (DAT)

Lands (19)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

Creatures (14)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Mongrel
1 Genesis
1 Wonder

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Darkblast
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam

Sideboard (15)
3 Stifle
3 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle

This is more the direction I would go with the deck.

I cut the Lonely Sanbars. They are replaced with Coliseum in my deck. This deck doesn't really need to keep drawing cards with Loam every turn. I'm not running Tog, therefore once I hit Threshold for Mongoose or pump Tarmogoyf to his max size, there's really no need to put extra cards in the bin. The Loam engine is good for mana stabilization, Wasteland lock, pumping Mongrel, and draw with Coliseum. The draw engine doesn't need to be anything fancy, IMO, and Lonely Sanbars just seem like overkill. This isn't Dredge A Tog. Coliseum has a few major benefits. For one, you only need 1 Coliseum... with Sanbar, you need both. Secondly, it is a discard outlet for Genesis/Wonder. Lastly, it doesn't come into play tapped if you need to use it as a mana source.

I tightened up the manabase to make sure the deck isn't getting mana screwed early on when it doesn't have the Loam engine online. This means more colored mana sources, fetches, etc. The deck has a fundamentally higher mana curve than normal Thresh with Intuition, Loam, Deed, and Genesis. With only 8 cantrips, 19 lands seems appropriate.

Like I said above, I don't even run Tog anymore. There just doesn't seem to be much of a point for it now. By the time Tog gets online, it's just going to be win-more if you've been hitting them with the green beats.

Gigapede seems pointless. You have Genesis for recurring beaters, Mongoose for untargetability, and Coliseum/Mongrel as a discard outlet.

Stinkweed Imp also seems pointless. In typical DAT, it's good to have because the deck doesn't have big fat green men to block for it. In this deck, I don't see what Imp is going to do that Tarmogoyf can't as far as playing defensively. Stinkweed can Dredge (irrelevant, for the most part, with Genesis) and Stinkweed has Flying (irrelevant, for the most part, with Wonder). Tarmogoyf isn't just good defensively... he's also a strong aggressor.

Tombstalker just doesn't seem necessary either. This can easily fund his Delve cost, BB should be relatively easy to get, but does the deck really need another beater? The only valuable thing that comes to mind with Tombstalker is that he can avoid Deed... for that reason, I'm still keeping him as a consideration.

The 4th Intuition is important. You have 6 toolbox targets MD that you can grab with Intuition:

1 Wasteland
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Genesis
1 Wonder
1 Darkblast
1 Life from the Loam

Beyond that, Intuition can still grab cards like Deed and such too, and it's still a pitch target for FoW. Intuition gets the card advantage engine online, whether it be via Loam + Coliseum or Genesis. Having 4 increases your chances of doing so.

Everything else seems pretty run of the mill. My sideboard is just tossed together for now, but it seems to be pretty solid. Stifle/Duress answer combo, E Plague answers Goblins, EE answers EtW tokens or can come in as additional removal, Needle answers randomness. I didn't put Krosan Grips in the board, but those could also find their way in there.

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5297

I started working on U/G/b Aggro DAT a long while back. It was a fairly strong deck then, and obviously Tarmogoyf just puts it over the top. The link above is the link to the thread for the U/G/b Aggro DAT deck I was working on a while back. There might be some useful information there that could help you with the tuning of the deck.

Solpugid
07-09-2007, 04:55 PM
Hanni, that build is some kind of hotness. When I looked at your linked thread, I remembered scanning the old list and thinking there needed to be another beatstick (and that mox diamond just didn't fit). With both of those issues resolved, I think I'd like to get behind the testing of this deck. If only I didn't travel to New Zealand for 5 months and leave all my cards besides threshold behind...proxy time!

I would, however, like to echo some of the other posters and suggest portent in place of visions. It's a much better play first turn, finding you your counters and setting up 2nd turn plays. More than that, it's fantastic at setting up efficient dredges (i.e., see genesis, ghastly demise, and wasteland on top; draw ghastly demise on upkeep and then dredge the other two on your turn).

As for eternal witness, I think its inclusion, while strong, is not good enough. Witness->deed recursion, etc. is powerful but incredibly mana-intensive. This deck is not built to be flooded with mana, even with loam, so witness should take a backseat for the time being, me thinks.

Hanni
07-09-2007, 05:33 PM
Yea, I suppose Portent works too. I don't think it's a big concern either way, I just usually prefer Serum Visions because it is a superior dig spell. This deck wants to find Intuition and Serum Visions will dig for it faster. However, I see the benefits of Portent too... you get your instant on their upkeep, whether it's Daze or Force or Ghastly Demise or whatever, and are able to play it on their turn. I also like how it can screw with the top of the opponent's deck when you are in a winning situation. Both cards have their pros and cons, choose the one you like better. I'll try Portent out and see if I like it better in this deck.

BreathWeapon
07-09-2007, 06:11 PM
I'd use a Cabal Pit over a Darkblast, unless the Darkblast is being used for its Dredge, Cabal Pit deserves to be in there some where. Tomb of Urami could be an interesting finisher inside of a Loam shell as well.

Hanni
07-09-2007, 06:30 PM
I'm using Darkblast instead of the 4th Ghastly Demise. It's just another answer to a 1st turn Lackey, except it's recurrable. With a Plague on the table in games 2 and 3 vs Goblins, Darkblast can do nice work. Typically though, it's just there as a recurrable 1cc answer to stuffs. It hits Confidant's, which is useful because Demise doesn't. It's not really there to be used specifically to dredge, but it can be if needed.

Tomb of Urami doesn't seem to make sense when this deck doesn't really need any more finishers. I tried Cabal Pit before but I never really found it necessary... it doesn't work as removal until you establish Threshold. It's not recurrable until you have Loam. By that time, the deck should almost always be able to answer 2/2's with my own aggro + Genesis, Deed, or Ghastly Demise. The interesting thing their would be to win the Goyf vs Goyf battle with an uncounterable colorless removal source, but Darkblast should work well enough in this scenario. If you want to fit a Cabal Pit, though, I'd probably drop 1 Tropical Island or 1 Swamp.

Goaswerfraiejen
07-12-2007, 01:53 AM
Well, I've been doing significant testing with a version of the deck that's somewhere between my original, 4eak's, and Hanni's. The biggest difference between the current list and the original is that now Nimble Mongoose is back, and that changes things a little. For one thing, the deck once again becomes incredibly aggressive (note too that Genesis recursion becomes that much better). The deck also now fixes its weakness to excessive removal (notably Swords to Plowshares). The opening plays change a bit; a first-turn mongoose is often a great move (although, if you're going first, you can afford to cantrip to put out a strong Tarmogoyf on turn two). Lastly, the Goblins matchup now becomes much, much more favourable--dealing with Lackey is largely a non-issue with my present version. Oh, and I'm surprised to say that losing Jitte isn't so bad. :smile: To mimic the lifegain, Golgari Brownscale would be an interesting option. Actually, he's interesting in general--but probably just a dangerous cool thing.

That said, here's the new decklist:

Lands (17)

3 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

Creatures (16)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Mongrel
1 Genesis
1 Wonder
1 Gigapede
1 Eternal Witness

Spells (27)

4 Serum Visions
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
3 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Darkblast
1 Life from the Loam

Sideboard (15)
4 Stifle
3 Sandstorm
3 Pithing Needle
3 Crime//Punishment
1 Savannah
1 Tombstalker

The other notable new addition is Darkblast; yes, indeed, I've come back to it once more. I particularly like Hanni's balance between Darkblast and Ghastly Demise--Darkblast is just enough to do what Demise can't. Plus, it dredges.

Eternal Witness: I think that it's an important addition. Not just for Deed recursion and Genesis interaction, since that's uncommon enough (gotta make it to the late game, after all), but just as a general situation-fixer. I've found myself using it to recur creatures and removal (or Wasteland/Coliseum!) rather often. I wouldn't want to run more than one, but at one, I feel that it's really earning its slot.

Cephalid Coliseum: Still undecided on this one. I like it (especially since it doesn't come in tapped), but the fact that it can only draw on Threshold is a bummer (since I'd love to use it to set up Thresh instead). On the other hand, the super-draw comes in handy, sometimes.

Gigapede: At first I took him out, but now he's back because I was really missing the ability to discard something to him when I don't have a Mongrel or the Tog in play. So very, very useful.

Serum Visions: Right now, I'm still in favour of Serum Visions for the reasons that I posted above; I constantly find myself wanting stuff at the bottom of my library rather than shuffled around.

Intuition #4: I'm still adjusting to the new 1-of setup. I've cut a Brainstorm (Serum Visions is too important) for it, without any real kickback. Still deciding if four is one too many, however.

THE SIDEBOARD

Still unchanged, I know. I've noticed a few things, however: notably, that it's almost overkill against EtW-based combo (you'll probably lose game one, but only horrid luck can lose you game two!). Basically, I think that my Stifle count can afford to go down by at least one. What should go in its place? Beats me, really. Could be, say, Jitte, Tabernacle, Leyline/Void/Crypt... honestly, I'm not sure. As of this post, I'll be taking out one Stifle for a single Tormod's Crypt, and we'll see where it goes from there.

I tinkered around with a Living Wish-based board (not a Wishboard, but a board that allows you to SB your one-ofs to create a Wishboard after sideboarding), but it wasn't all that successful. An interesting idea, but ultimately I think that it sacrifices too much of what makes the maindeck so good.

Another option is to start running Trinket Mage and to create a Mage-Board, but I'm not enamoured with that idea either. I'm happy enough with the current SB as a generic sideboard.

Tombstalker: Still in the board because you WILL face graveyard hate after the first game, and only having a single Wonder makes flying around a risky expectation. I've been very happy subbing him in for Gigapede or Psychatog in relevant matchups. He can also weaken enemy Tarmogoyfs (minor consideration) and evade Deed (also minor). Yes, he's another beater--but he can fly. That's what's most important about him in my mind: he reduces your reliance upon Wonder. The other option, in my mind, is Stinkweed Imp--but that's mostly just good defensively.

Crime/Punishment + Savannah: Still deciding just how useful these are overall.

Thanks very much for the replies--we've brewed up something truly formidable. Oh, and I played a random guy on MWS tonight who said he was tired of facing this deck again and again, so thanks for taking it up!

Solpugid
07-12-2007, 04:38 AM
Siding in tombstalker to fight graveyard hate is...not that smart. If they draw hate before you draw stalker you may have yourself one dead card.

Second, please tell me you're planning on putting the fourth brainstorm in. That card is essential, seriously.

Finally, I'd be a tad worried about only having 17 lands and expecting to use genesis to recur threats.

However, your inclusion of witness is interesting me more and more. While I agree that expecting to recur it is greedy, using it as general card advantage/selection is rather good. I'll test it. But please, drop a serum visions for brainstorm and gigapede for another land, I think that will make the deck far more effective.

BreathWeapon
07-12-2007, 05:20 AM
Pernicious Deed is a good sweeper and all, but the deck isn't even using black for its better cards, Duress, Dark Confidant, Engineered Plague, Psychatog etc. I've been running a similar list with white and loving it, you guys should really reconsider your splash. Pernicious Deed and Solitary Confinement are different beasts, but the deck can pick up Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives and Swords to Plowshares is so much better at dealing with Jotun Grunt and July 14th Dreadnoughts.

You probably want Nostalgic Dreams over Eternal Witness, but both of those cards seem like such over kill to me.

Goaswerfraiejen
07-18-2007, 01:22 AM
Siding in tombstalker to fight graveyard hate is...not that smart. If they draw hate before you draw stalker you may have yourself one dead card.

That's a valid point. Here's my problem, though: what do you do when Wonder is unavailable for one reason or another? There's basically zero evasion in this deck. Sure, you can rely on brute force, but that doesn't help when you need to win now, or even just sooner rather than later. With that in mind, what do you suggest for a more synergistic in-colour evasive fattie?

EDIT: Avatar of Woe, perhaps?


Second, please tell me you're planning on putting the fourth brainstorm in. That card is essential, seriously.

Of course I plan on it, I'm just testing to see how vital it is compared to the fourth Intuition. As it is, I've been getting along fine without the fourth copy of either one, so it's just a question of tweaking things around.


Finally, I'd be a tad worried about only having 17 lands and expecting to use genesis to recur threats.

I don't ever expect to need to recur via Genesis--it's merely an option. That is to say, Genesis is for when the game goes long. In the late game, Genesis has enormous potential as massive card advantage. I was concerned about going from 18 to 17 lands (although I was mroe concerned about passing from 19 to 18, truth be told), but it hasn't proven to be a problem. With Life from the Loam (Eternal Witness if need/luck be), there's really no reason why you won't have Genesis recursion (capability; let's be clear--Genesis won't always be in the yard at the time, since there are often better plays available) online before or around your eighth turn. Sounds late, but the fact is that you shouldn't want or need it before then anyway. In my own testing, I usually reach a situation where I have Genesis in the yard along with a few ideal creatures by turn 8. Before then, there's usually little reason to start recurring creatures: you have plenty more to come (especially through cantrips). You only want to start recurring once you feel that you're running out of steam. In any case, the majority of your creatures cost two mana, which isn't very much--like I said, you should already have five mana by the time you want to start using Genesis in the first place. If not, then at least four for Mongoose recursion.

Long story short, Genesis is about maintaining a stable, controlling board in the late game. As such, I myself have not yet had any problems with the land count. Besides, back when I had was 18 and 19 lands, two of those were Sandbars, which don't really help. ;)


However, your inclusion of witness is interesting me more and more. While I agree that expecting to recur it is greedy, using it as general card advantage/selection is rather good. I'll test it. But please, drop a serum visions for brainstorm and gigapede for another land, I think that will make the deck far more effective.

Glad you like the Witness--I have only good things to say about it, myself.

While I'll certainly try your suggestion, I have to confess that I don't like it. Serum Visions has proven far more important overall than Brainstorm (not just because it's a sorcery but, as I said in an ealier post, because it lets you manipulate your draws and increase your chances of drawing whatever; Brainstorm's main advantage [other than its speed], as far as I can tell, is that it saves important stuff from discard--discard isn't really prevalent enough in Legacy to worry me overmuch; besides, I don't care what's in my graveyard, since it all works for me anyway :smile:).

Likewise, I'm not convinced about dropping Gigapede. I'll readily concede that Gigapede's main use is as a discard engine; seldom do I need to cast him, and even when that happens he's rather easily killed. Nevertheless, I think that he fills a very fundamental role in the deck: I fetch him out a lot, simply because relying on Mongrel/Tog to be alive just isn't good enough. Now, I'll readily recognize that the important part about Gigapede is the discard; in other words, the deck seems to want some sort of foolproof failsafe.


So, like i said: I'm definitely biased in what I say, but I'll give things a spin your way nonetheless. Always worth a try.




Pernicious Deed is a good sweeper and all, but the deck isn't even using black for its better cards, Duress, Dark Confidant, Engineered Plague, Psychatog etc.


If not most, then a number of these have been addressed in the card discussion in the opening post. Without repeating myself too much, here's the gist of it all:

Duress: Too often dead. It's a horrible topdeck, and wholly useless in this deck given that we don't care what goes to our graveyard. What I mean is this: Duress is only particularly good (for this deck) against StP and storm combo decks. After all, we couldn't care less about aggro-control, since the control elements just feed the yard, which eventually turns into card advantage for us. As for aggro, well... Duress is always pretty much dead there. Against storm-based combo, Duress is more useful--but it doesn't hit the heart of the deck. Too often, you'll be taking a mana provider (one among many) or you'll be faced with a tutor vs. kill condition situation. Myself, I'd prefer to simply wipe the board of EtW tokens or wawit to Stifle Tendrils. In most local metagames, combo seems to enjoy a low profile; even at large tournaments, it doesn't make up such a huge portion of the field. Accordingly, Duress and its ilk belong--if anywhere--in the sideboard. I tried it there, as the deck history will show, but didn't like it at all. It was cluttering my hands and making me keep bad combo hands (that is to say, a hand with force, a blue spell, and Sandstorm is much stronger versus Legacy storm combo than one with force, blue, and Duress). I'm not saying that Duress is bad, just that it doesn't belong here.

Confidant: Even without Tombstalker, there are simply too many high casting costs floating around. FoW, Genesis, and Wonder, for one (three). Gigapede, if you run it. Lastly, too many 3-cost spells--these are the ones that will kill you. I tried Confidant, but he was subpar at best, and the life loss is far too significant for you to expect to be able to reliably switch gears. In the context of this deck, Confidant effectively forces you to keep to the aggro role pretty strictly--and that's not good.


EDIT 2: Forgot to write about the other two cards.

Plague: Deed and Punishment are more versatile, and simply better in general. Without Dark Ritual, Plague's effectiveness versus Empty the Warrens is significantly compromised. As for regular tribal matchups, they're already very strong.

Psychatog: Already running one. It's not worth cutting Mongoose, Mongrel, or Tarmogoyf to run a second--which would simply be overkill. Mongrel and Tarmogoyf are awesome early beaters, and they both hit for more than one. Mongoose hits for one for a time, but ultimately can't be targeted, which is a huge plus. Psychatog requires a more significant investment best suited for the endgame, when it will win. The gigapede slot is certainly one that could be replaced by a Psychatog but, like I said, Gigapede is quite important when you're trying to set up your set-piece Intuitions.



I've been running a similar list with white and loving it, you guys should really reconsider your splash. Pernicious Deed and Solitary Confinement are different beasts, but the deck can pick up Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives and Swords to Plowshares is so much better at dealing with Jotun Grunt and July 14th Dreadnoughts.

I agree, white is definitely a strong splash for this kind of deck. As I've said before, though, it resembles TerraGeddon a little too much. I love TerraGeddon, but it's a deck that tries to do different things.

I'm glad that you reminded me of Academy Ruins, because I've been thinking about EE again. I'm thinking about it because I don't like relying on the opponent to provide artifacts, and because it can deal with Dreadnought faster. On the other hand, Crime//Punishment is often simply better (in terms of token destruction, certainly, as well as for permanents that cost more than three mana; plus, it's "faster"). To be honest, I'm not sure either way, yet. I suspect that Academy recursion would just be too many cool things in one package, however.



You probably want Nostalgic Dreams over Eternal Witness, but both of those cards seem like such over kill to me.

While I'd forgotten about Dreams, Witness is probably better--simply because a countered Witness is no loss, and it can also be recurred if necessary (in the most extreme of circumstances, might I add! :tongue:). Besides, it chumps or swings for two.


Other than that, I've nothing earthshaking to report. Most of my tinkering lately has been with the sideboard, but I've not found a better general configuration yet. I've replaced a Stifle with a Tormod's Crypt simply because... well, overkill easily describes games two and three versus Warrens-based combo, especially Belcher. Tendrils remains a problem, however, so I'd be uncomfortable cutting Stifle altogether. A single Crypt goes a long way to helping versus Reanimator/RecSur/Ichorid, but Ichorid is going to be an auto-loss anyway. :tongue: That's something that I really want to fix--especially given Ichorid's rapid rise in popularity, at least in larger tournament settings--but I'm just not ready yet.


Again, thanks for your comments. It's great to get these different perspectives.

Goaswerfraiejen
08-03-2007, 02:31 AM
Just some updates. I've come back from some extensive testing and have made some minor adjustments. Too bad I missed the tournament run here. :frown:

Avatar of Woe: It's just been too unreliable. Great card, great ability, but too often it has to be hardcast. Otherwise, it comes into play at a time when it makes no real difference. I'm going back to Tombstalker for now. As I've explained, he's essentially another Psychatog, only he flies automatically. He has the added advantage of allowing you to select your Delve setting. I'm open to other independent (read: backup) fattie suggestions, though. Running a full complement of Negators would be interesting, but a whole other kettle of fish.

Extra Lands? Nope, not worth it. Runs fine as it is.

Eternal Witness: Still amazing.

Gigapede: Also still amazing. He's officially a keeper.

Daze: I wasn't too happy with Daze's role in the late game, and the loss of tempo made using it a precarious thing. I'm trying out 3x Stifle in its place. So far, I like it. The card is obviously seldom dead. Plus, it frees up sideboard space.

The Sideboard:

Currently, it looks as follows

4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
3 Crime/Punishment
1 Savannah
1 Stifle

2 Free - Krosan Grip? Engineered Explosives? Engineered Plague? Sandstorm? Yixlid Jailer?

Really, there are two big changes, and one more minor change (Stifle going into the MD, thus freeing 3 slots). As I said earlier, I often found that my generic (base) sideboard was overkill when it came to goblin tokens--I've thus adjusted the numbers a bit more. With 4 Stifles and 6 sweepers, those matchups don't seem to have suffered at all (indeed, game one improves drastically, although it's still up to Lady Luck; also, dealing with Tendrils is now easier).

The second big change comes with Tormod's Crypt. Quite simply, I'm tired of Ichorid being an auto-loss, especially given its growing popularity. The four Crypts are a start when it comes to giving the deck a fighting chance. Perhaps the remaining two slots could likewise be devoted to Yixlid Jailer or something. Hard to say. I'm checking out my options.

Goaswerfraiejen
08-21-2007, 11:16 AM
This is probably the last significant update I'll be making for a while; at least, until new sets give me new tools to work with. I've made some changes to the main deck (-1 Wild Mongrel, -3 Daze, +1 Psychatog, +3 Mana Leak) and to the sideboard (brought in 4 Energy Field to fill the testing slot). Thus far, I'm sold on everything but the Energy Fields; still, time will tell. In any case, I've re-written the primer in the first post to reflect the current decklist (which is vastly superior). Hope more of you pick up the deck.

Take care,
-Goaswerfraiejen


Current Primer:



Deck History: This is an evolved version of what I used to think of as BUG Threshold. It started as a direct port to black, with Tombstalker for a finisher and Tarmogoyf for beatz (and Deed for versatility). Unfortunately, the deck felt significantly weaker than its other variants due to the loss of Meddling Mage, Worship, and decent spot-removal.

Clearly, then, the deck needed something more to make it viableóI started experimenting with elements from Gro-a-Tog (ĎTog, Genesis, Wonder) and dredge-based decks, and found that Wild Mongrel could be used to greatly increase consistency. From there, it was a small step to include Intuition and a small base of tutorable utility tools. Thereís been some tinkering since, and what I present to you today is a base list thatís been largely finalized, although there are still a few question marks.

First phase. (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5534)

Second phase. (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5621)

Third Phase. (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5785)

Fourth Phase. (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6230)

(FYI, this is the deckís fifth distinct incarnation)

Now, a decklist:

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Wasteland
1 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta

4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Leak
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Wild Mongrel
2 Psychatog
1 Genesis
1 Wonder
1 Gigapede
1 Eternal Witness


Sideboard:

4 Stifle
4 Energy Field
3 Crime//punishment
3 Pithing Needle
1 Tundra

Playing the deck--basics:
Basically, you want an opening hand with at least two lands and a creature (or two), or at least some kind of card-drawing. You can keep one-land hands with a lot of draw, but I just donít trust that on MWS or Apprentice. Alternately, hands with a few lands and a few draw spells are fine too. In real life, things are sometimes different, depending on how well you shuffle. Generally, you want to keep a fairly aggressive strategy early on (as much as your hand will allowóyou donít really need counter backup early on) and then switch to a more controlling position when necessary to end the game with a flying alpha strike. Most games will play out as variations on this theme; the important thing is to remember to switch gears; if you donít, you run the risk of being out-aggroed or out-controlled. If you drive a car with a standard transmission, then you should be familiar with the concept.

Why play this over other Threshold or ĎTog variants? As always, Iíll be honest about my biases, but I believe that this deck is more resilient than typical Threshold, ĎTog, or non-Ichorid Dredge builds, and the reason for this lies in the combination of strategies. Before I get into that, though, I want to point out your biggest advantage: people will think that youíre playing Threshold until youíre ready to show them otherwise. Accordingly, your opponents will waste valuable early resources on your early beatsticks, not realising that youíve got significant recursion and evasion a little later on. You can almost always allow your creatures to be destroyed early on; it just doesnít much matter. This is especially relevant versus aggro-control decks like Threshold, which you can force into making bad counters (thus protecting your control aspect and late-game). If your opponent mistakes your deck for Threshold, you are very likely to win game one (unless, of course, itís a horrid matchup for you to begin with).

Now, TarmoTog begins the game aggressively, much like Threshold (except perhaps a little more aggressiveóyou want those extra points of damage, and you donít need to wait for them very long). It has more (and bigger) creatures, however, and thanks to Genesis (coupled with Eternal Witness and Gigapede) it can recur them when it needs to (thus effectively negating most removal). When the aggro strategy starts to wind down, you can easily switch into ĎTog mode and swing for a bazillion (ish) with a flying Psychatog (or whatever else: everything you play is a threat, barring perhaps Witness).

Now, originally, I wanted to reduce graveyard dependence when compared to traditional Threshold; as Iíve perfected the deck, however, Iíve had to sacrifice some of that independence for a more streamlined deck. Nevertheless, graveyard hate really isnít that big a deal (especially if itís one-sided, like Crypt). Your graveyard is a VERY useful tool, but itís hardly necessary: almost all your creatures are scary even without a graveyard, the fact that you run both dredge and cantrip engines means that you can easily recover from temporary hate, and the deck packs far more aggression than ĎTog or Threshold typically does, and so it can get away with itís preference for a strong graveyard. It also doesnít rely on a huge swing with ĎTogóthe ĎTog swing is just one option among many (that are often equal); that alone is a huge bonus.

As far as more traditional Psychatog builds are concerned, my problem with them has usually been that they arenít quite aggressive enough (at least, not for my tasteóI donít feel comfortable running 6-8 creatures in a format rife with removal); what I like even less is the reliance on a single massive swing (eggs, basket, etc.). Granted, Iím an aggro kind of guy--on the other hand, StP (which any Legacy deck with at least a white splashóand there are a lot--is bound to run) really sucks for you when you only run two or three real threats. This deck has a further advantage in that Pithing Needle is not very effective as a hate card, since the deck does not depend on any of the valid targets to an inordinate degree (Psychatog, Mongrel, or Deed) and can side them outóor can riposte with alternate mass-removal.

Sure, Psychatog decks have a scary number of counterspellsóbut these cards are reactive, and leave the deck largely defenceless if and when something punches through. While TarmoTog retains a minimum of counter-power, it relies more on Deed and Punishment to clear the way for lethal attacks/whatever. Itís also obviously much more aggressive (especially initially) than ĎTog decks are, and therein, I think, lies its greatest strength: TarmoTogís creatures can all win the game on their own (i.e. without the ďfinishersĒ). You donít need Psychatog or Tarmogoyf to win the gameóyou can punch through with Mongrels/Gigapede/whatever. Indeed, Iíve found that a number of games are resolved without a Psychatog ever touching the table. In large part, of course, this is due to the fact that Tarmogoyf is essentially a finisher for IG.

SoÖ yes, Iím biased towards my creation. On the other hand, I think that it embodies the best of both worlds (Threshold and ĎTog), and I feel that the result is well worth noting. The deckís composition gives it strong options in role assignment, and indeed allows it to switch roles at pretty much any point in the gameóyou can be aggro when you need to be, and you can be more controlling when thatís whatís required, but the best thing (in my opinion) about the deck is its ability to apply tremendous early pressure and then simply sit back and turtle through the opponentís riposte until a kill can be set up.

Why not BUG Threshold? Like I said earlier, this deck originated as a Black-based Threshold port. I found that it lost too much, however, and that its gains eventually compromised its aggression (ex. Deed is counterproductive with Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose). Losing Meddling Mage is also a huge blow. I just didnít feel comfortable with the roles that the replacements were fulfilling (ex. Ghastly Demise for Swords to Plowshares). This deck functions in largely the same way as BUG Threshold, but its dependencies are reduced and the synergies have been increased, and the net result is, I think, a deck that is simply better.

How it works: Well, this part is pretty straightforward, especially for people who are familiar with Psychatog and Threshold. Open with a cantrip (OR Mongoose), follow up with a creature (hopefully Mongrel or Tarmogoyf), and continue to cantrip/cast creatures at your leisure while you beat face. Once your creatures start having a harder time getting through, switch into your control elements; that is, dig for Genesis/Wonder/Deed/Witness/etc. and counter what you canít answer. Generally, your hardest matchups are against combo (because, initially, you havenít got much; ďcomboĒ includes Ichorid) and Reanimator, but you can fight through. Donít hesitate to shift gears (from aggro to control, or whatever) to keep your opponent off-balance long enough to kill him. The longer the game drags on against combo, the better your chancesóalthough, to be fair, that goes for most decks.

The deckís initial games are mostly favourable, since few decks run hate in the main deck and most people will waste their resources thinking that youíre playing a crappy version of Threshold. The biggest problem the deck faces is splash hate, since graveyard hate and Pithing Needle all work against it. Iíve tried to minimize this kind of hateís effect on the deck (by giving it a quick graveyard recovery system and a certain independence from the grave, as well as by giving it alternative finishers), and these measures are certainly successfulónonetheless, the problem remains. That means that your second and third games will be harder, but I think that the deck has enough initial resilience that clever sideboarding (and in-game gear-shifting) will prove to be enough of a defence. In testing, this has certainly been the case. In fact, the only piece of hate that should really worry you is Jotun Grunt, but itís not all that hard to handle.

Single Card Discussion:

Genesis - Single-handedly negates most removal, thus allowing you to make aggressive openings (trading with whatever your removal canít touch, etc.). Genesis-based recursion also makes it so that youíre running more creatures than you really are, thus making Jitte all the more effective.

Wonder - As in more traditional Psychatog builds, Wonder is here to prevent stalemates and to allow for lethal attacks.

Tarmogoyf - Better than Werebear in every way, reduces dependence on my own graveyard; probably the single most important card in the deck. ĎNuff said.

Gigapede Ė Quality beatstick that canít be hit with targeted removal (like Swords to Plowshares!). Has the added advantage of recurring without Genesis, and acting as a discard outlet. Gigapede has proven invaluable, although Trample/more toughness would be nice. To be honest, Gigapede is probably the single most important recent addition to the current version of the deckóheís just been amazing. Most of the time when you cast Intuition youíll want to grab Gigapede, Genesis and/or Wonder, and/or something else. If the wrong card gets returned, you can just Gigapede it away, even without a Mongrel or Psychatog. Otherwise, youíve got a bloody scary insect on the way.

Psychatog - A secondary or even tertiary strategy option. If the smaller ones canít quite punch through, use Psychatog to crush the defences. Also acts as a fifth Mongrel. How useful is it really? In earlier versions of the deck I often found myself using Tombstalker in its stead, but I think that, if nothing else, itís important as Mongrel #5. Definitely a removal magnet, but very useful nonetheless. Sometimes I think of cutting it, but Iíve always decided against it; the raw power and the utility are simply to significant to ignore. Accordingly, Iíve cut a Mongrel to fit in a second Psychatog.

Ghastly Demise - The weakest slot in the deck, since it canít target black creatures and is also dependent on your graveyard. Vendetta is the only other real in-colour option, but I dislike the life loss (since Demise is best used against fatties). Smother would work, but the extra mana requirement is a significant hindrance, plus it canít get rid of anything particularly large and threatening beyond Tarmogoyf (weenies are easily dealt with, what with your ginormous creatures and all; itís big flying fatties that are scariest).

Life from the Loam Ė Helps you skirt LD strategies, feeds the grave (acting as a draw engine even without Lonely Sandbar or Cephalid Coliseum), recurs Wasteland, and pumps Mongrel and Psychatog. Very important inclusion, but not a crucial part of your strategy.

Pernicious Deed - Too important not to play. Deed is both a wrath-effect and more pinpointed removal, and clearing the board is always goodóespecially since you can just use Genesis to put the fat back on the table. Deed is the bane of Legacyís lower tiers, and that alone is a great reason to run it. Destroying hate is awesome.


Sideboard:

Crime/Punishment Ė My sideboard seemed to lack versatile mass removal when I took out Engineered Explosives for Sandstorm, and so my thoughts turned to these. They can go in for Deed when Pithing Needle/Meddling Mage is expected, or they can be played in conjunction with Deed for some serious hate. Sometimes, the fact that they can be played slightly faster is preferable to Deed being an enchantment. Crime presents an interesting extra option (but only that: using it as a Deed should be your and its primary task), and one Iíve been testing out by including a single Tundra in the board. The question, of course, is whether this is simply a nod toward ďcool things,Ē or a meaningful addition to the deck. Myself, after all this testing, Iíve been leaning towards the latter.

Energy Field Ė Currently testing in place of Sandstorm and/or Engineered Explosives as a solution to the Ichorid and Burn matchups (which needed a helping hand), despite its obvious lack of synergy with much of the deck. Itís working well, but still does nothing against Tendrilsóalthough it sure does help trump other combo win conditions. Itís also your only option (and not a great one at that) against Lands.dec. :tongue: Mostly, what I like about it is that it stalls the game, and stalled games usually end up with you winning since you have all of the necessary tools. Even if it only stalls for two turns, I feel itís worth it. Iím not gonna lie, though: Iíd appreciate something better. Iíve tried Crypt, but itís neither as effective against Ichorid as Iíd like, nor is it very broad in its application against decks that cause me trouble.
Tundra/i] Ė Replaces Wasteland in matches where itís irrelevant, less useful, or when you might want to use Crime. Alternately, it replaces Cephalid Coliseum. I plugged in a Tundra rather than a basic Plains because I always want to be able to fetch it out.
[i]Pithing Needle - Only really necessary against 'Belcher: FoW, Daze, Stifle, or Pernicious Deed (or Punishment) can help to take care of the rest. Along with Deeds and Punishment, it should really shore up the Belcher matchup. Other than that, the Needle is almost always great. :smile:


Tried or Suggested (but dismissed):

Daze: Great card, but Iíve cut it for Mana Leak for a few reasons: Mana Leak is more effective in the mid to late game, and Mana Leak doesnít tempt you into making bad moves that result in significant tempo loss. Youíve got to be as wary of Daze as Wasteland; besides, Deed can easily take care of any of the early permanents that might hit the table. Daze was particularly handy early on against Faerie Stompy, Stax, and storm-based combo, but I felt that the disadvantages were too significant. In most games, itís in the late game that you need Daze; and thatís precisely when itís useless. Besides, competent opponents will think youíre running Daze until you somehow reveal a Mana Leak (And sometimes even after), which can be a significant boon.

Berserk: Just a win-more card. Itís more useful in typical Tog lists, which tend to be creature-light (well, lighter). Sure, using it on Mongrel/Tog/Goyf is attractive, but itís unnecessary since youíll be applying pressure from the very start. It will help you win a turn earlier, but thatís not really enough to justify itís inclusion over something else. Besides, itís expensive.

Engineered Explosives: Great sweeper, but I was mostly using it to sweep Goblin tokens. Sandstorm does that better. As for general sweepers, Iíve now got Punishment, which I think is generally better despite being a sorcery.

Sandstorm: Originally replaced Engineered Explosives. I was mostly using the Explosives to destroy goblins from EtW, but the Explosives often come online a little too slow to make the difference they need to make. Yes, they're versatile, but I already have Deed to sweep the board, and too often EE has become a replacement for targeted removal--in other words, not so great. So, I've replaced it with Sandstorm to increase the chances of beating EtW-based combo, and also because Sandstorm is much more effective than EE against Goblins (hell, at worst, it kills a first-turn Lackey). Besides, nobody expects it. :wink: Iíve only temporarily cut it to test other things.

Big Game Hunter: Great extra removal, good synergy with my discard outlets. As a singleton, useful in fairly specific circumstances. Iíve got Crime//Punishment now, however.

Engineered Plague: At first glance, a no-brainer in the sideboard. Unfortunately, itís not as useful as one might hope: without Ritual, the mana commitment is intensive, and difficult to manage when trying to play around Wasteland/Port lockdown from Goblins. In its stead, Iíve chosen to rely largely on Sandstorm to get rid of miscellaneous 1/1s and tokens. Itís obviously not as good, but it works well enough in conjunction with the big beaters. Itís too bad that Plague doesnít work so well--it would really make the Goblins matchup stellar. Some may still want to include it, but I feel that EtW-based combo decks pose a much larger threat to the deck, and Sandstorm and Crime//Punishment are both better suited to dealing with that than Plague is.

Tombstalker: Often questioned. Usually, the complaint is that he eats the graveyard. What most of his detractors fail to realise, however, is that TarmoTogís graveyard is a resource, unlike Threshold, where itís a necessity (even a crutch). Ghastly Demise can suffer under Tombstalker, but by the time you cast this bugger you should have used mostóor you should have the ability to cantrip/dredge into a graveyard. Tarmogoyf doesnít much care because he feeds on your opponentís graveyard as well (in fact, Tarmogoyf is the key to winning against Fish decks with Leyline of the Void, since heíll still be bigger than their stuff). Your dredge engines are there for two reasons: to feed Tombstalker and Psychatog, and to dominate the late game through recursion. You should, of course, try to keep at least a single dredger in there if you can)óin any case, you can recover your grave quickly enough. Heís a healthy alternative finisher (rather than Psychatog), since he flies without Wonder. Ultimately, when you play Tombstalker, youíre playing him to winóat that point, whatís in the grave is less relevant (either because thereís more than enough in there, or because you just need a fattie with evasion). In the end, Iíve cut him out for now, simply because I needed more room in the sideboard for problematic matchups, and my creatures are all pretty fat to begin with.

Stinkweed Imp: Recurring removal, creature, graveyard-filler (engine), etc. I kind of miss using this guy.

Some matchups:

Goblins: Even or a little better, pre-board. You have a much better intial matchup than either Threshold or Tog due to your increased fat and sweepers. Start by beating face for a couple of turns (if you can safely do so), and then you should arrive at a stalemate. Attack (and block) carefully while you wait for Genesis, Wonder, Psychatog, or Deed to give you an advantage. Post-board, you gain Crime/Punishment to complement your Deeds, which ultimately really turn the matchup in your favour. You can also opt for Pithing Needle or even Energy Field. Bringing in Stifle for Mana Leak can also be a good move. Before Mongooseís inclusion, a first-turn Lackey was the biggest threat youíd face from Goblins; now, Iíd say youíve got to be wary of Kiki-Jiki and Siege-Gang Commander silliness, since these games are likely to drag out a little. Even if you canít answer a first-turn Lackey, if you donít panic, youíre quite capable of turning the tablesóas long as you put some kind of creature on the table fairly soon (preferably turn two). I myself have recovered from slow starts a number of times (and Iím not such a great player), but I wonít lie: it isnít easy, and such a situation is far from favourable. My sideboarding choices are pretty simple, really: Punishment to kill everything, Needle for Siege-Gang Commander or excessive Wastelands/Ports, and Stifle replaces Mana Leakís role. Energy Field is entirely up to you. Gigapede goes out simply because heíll die to a weenie, which sucks for a five-mana drop. Likewise, Mana Leak goes out because it doesnít do much versus Vial, and you could use the slot for something more pro-active. Oh, and Cephalid Coliseum is probably better off if it becomes a Tundra.

+3 Crime/Punishment
+3 Stifle/Pithing Needle
+1 Tundra

-3 Mana Leak
-1 Gigapede
-1 Darkblast
-1 Genesis
-1 Cephalid Coliseum

The EPIC Storm: Game one is an ugly matchup simply because youíre not likely to keep a hand fast enough/with the immediate tools to deal with TES. With Deed, you might be able to force your opponent into a Tendrils-win if you can stall long enough with Fow/Mana Leak, but it will only get you so far. I expect to lose game one. For subsequent games, however, your chances are strong for as long as you can avoid the Tendrils-win. If youíre playing with Sandstorm, just remember that you can stack Sandstorm so that it will kill both Xantid Swarm and Goblins, but you wonít be able to cast anything else that turn (shouldnít be a problem, though, since so many resources will have been expended on Goblin tokens; if your opponent is reaching for a Tendrils kill, however, Sandstorm wonít help). Watch out for Goblin War Strike, since it can make things a little sticky.

+4 Stifle
+3 Crime/Punishment
+1 Tundra

-3 Ghastly Demise
-1 Darkblast
-1 Genesis
-1 Wonder
-1 Gigapede
-1 Cephalid Coliseum


Threshold: Generally favourable. Expect to take some losses early in the game (to counterspells and so on), but as the game progresses, your odds get better and betteróand the game canít help but to progress, since each and every one of your creatures (barring Wonder, if itís not in the graveyard, and Eternal Witness) is a bigger threat than their own. Usually, you can just sit tight with just a Mongrel or Tarmogoyf to block things and keep a small army (say, two Mongeese and a Werebear or perhaps even a Tarmogoyf) at bay. Tarmogoyf is their biggest threat against you; use Ghastly Demise on it. Gigapede is an all-star in this matchup, since enemy burn and Swords to Plowshares canít touch itóand Mages are unlikely to ever name it. Your first Intuition should fetch it out along with Genesis and Wonder, and everything should be peachy. Your opponent is likely to expend StPs early, so use that to your advantage. Your better creatures and mass removal should ultimately prove too much to contend with when coupled with timely counterspells and a lot of recursion. Expect Pithing Needles to name Deed, and prepare accordingly. I like to side out Deed for Crime/Punishment because of opposing Needles and/or Mages, but Ghastly Demise could also come out for it if you want to keep both. The nice thing about this matchup is that you can use Crime on opposing creatures, since the game is likely to go on long enough. Youíre also lucky in that your opponent is likely to waste his resources in the first game, thinking youíre playing Threshold as well. Just be careful when you play against UGR Threshóthe burn can really turn the game.

+3 Crime/Punishment
+1 Tundra

-3 Pernicious Deed/Ghastly Demise/Mana Leak - - depends on what you plan on doing.
-1 Darkblast

Countersliver: Hard matchup, often decided early on. With an active Mongrel or Tarmogoyf, you can hold the bastards at bay for some time; you really want Tarmogoyf, though. The tricky thing is not getting overwhelmed before you can clear the board and start killing your opponent. Accordingly, you need to stall the early game. That means keeping Mongrel as a blocker (you opponent will be reluctant to swing into it without two Muscle/Sinew Slivers or a lot of other slivers), and hoping to resolve Tarmogoyf to do the same. You want to try to counter Crystalline Sliver so that you can still remove stuff with Ghastly Demise. Unfortunately, your opponent also has counterspells, so you need to prioritize: should you protect Tarmogoyf, or Deed? These are decisions that youíll have to make yourself. Post-board, lose Ghastly Demise in favour of Crime/Punishment. You probably wonít want to use Crime, but the Tundra is important to speed you up. Surprisingly, Energy Field can be quite good here, since what you really need is a means of stalling for a while. Alternately, Pithing Needle can help by targeting Aether Vial. Having six sweepers is the most important thing, though.

+3 Crime/Punishment
+3 Pithing Needle/Energy Field
+1 Tundra

-3 Ghastly Demise
-1 Cephalid Coliseum
-1 Darkblast
-1 Life from the Loam
-1 Intuition



IggyPop: Easier to deal with than other storm-combo decks, since your counters are actually useful (countering either Ill-Gotten Gains or the tutor reaching for it, etc.). Still, game one could be ugly - -especially since IggyPop sometimes runs Empty the Warrens now. Afterwards, you gain Stifle, which should even things out for you. You pretty much need your counterspells to win - - keep your mana open. If you fool him into thinking you have a Stifle, so much the better. Just use your counters wisely, and you can win. Aafter stopping him from going off once, just about any beatstick should do it.

+4 Stifle
+3 Crime/punishment (just in case Empty the Warrens is being used)
+1 Tundra

-3 Pernicious Deed
-3 Ghastly Demise
-1 Darkblast
-1 Wonder


Solidarity: Without Stifle, donít expect to win this one. Even then, victory is less than certainóunless, of course, Solidarity fizzles. Game one, try to counter High Tide, Reset, or Cunning Wish (youíre not likely to succeed, of course) in the hope that it will make your opponent fizzle. Below, youíll see that I board in Needle - - yes, I know itís not very useful. On the other hand, it can at least sometimes do something to slow the deck down, and itís more useful against Solidarity than anything youíre taking out.

-3 Ghastly Demise
-3 Pernicious Deed
-1 Darkblast
-1 Wasteland

+4 Stifle
+3 Pithing Needle
+1 Tundra


Faerie Stompy: Usually a pretty exciting match. The amount of removal that you run will pose problems for Faerie Stompy, but FS can easily break out Chalice and Pithing Needle to slow you down. Needle is especially unfortunate since Deed and Mongrel are the real all-stars in this matchup (Psychatog too, but Mongrel comes out faster). Counter Needle whenever possible, and you should be OK. Chalice at one only hurts you because you lose Ghastly Demise and half of your draw engine (Dredge being the other half). Remember that you can still play Brainstorm/Serum Visions, theyíll just go straight to your graveyard (and into your Tarmogoyf). If your opponent manages to set a Chalice at twoÖ well, youíre in serious trouble unless youíve got the better board position. If you can get beyond the first few turns without having to face down 2-3 huge fliers with nothing of your own, you are favoured to win. FSí biggest asset in this fight is its explosive speed early on; its greatest weakness is its tenuous creature base. Often, you donít really need to even counter SoFIóyou can just destroy every creature that might wear it. Counter it if you canóIím just saying that it wonít end your world. Oh, and this is one matchup where Crime (oh Gilded Drake, where are you?) is pretty useful. Energy Field is something that FS will have a very hard time dealing with, too. Deeds should come out, though, because of Trinket Mage.

+3 Crime/punishment
+3 Pithing Needle
+1 Tundra
(+4 Energy Field - - this is just an option. Itís not really necessary at all, but itís there if you feel more comfortable with it.)


-3 Pernicious Deed
-1 Psychatog
-1 Gigapede
-1 Darkblast
-1 Cephalid Coliseum


Reanimator: Big, flying, pro-black (and black) things are NOT good. Deed, Mana Leak, and FoW, however, ARE (but Deed is not very useful in this matchup, unfortunately). Expect a fight, game one. For subsequent games, youíll want to use Crime, if possibleómeaning that you need to live that long. Energy Field should also prove very effective.

+4 Energy Field
+3 Crime/Punishment
+1 Tundra

-3 Pernicious Deed
-3 Mana Leak
-1 Cephalid Coliseum
-1 Darkblast

Ichorid: See Reanimator; Iíd basically call this an auto-loss. Hell, Iíve pretty much stopped trying to win. Without graveyard hate in the SB, you just arenít likely to win against an opponent thatís familiar with his deck. I figure that your best chance is if your opponent decks himself, but the odds are against you if this happens, since heíll likely overwhelm you. Your only option, really, is Energy Field. Maybe you can use Crime to steal something permanent, who knows (unlikely, given the mana requirement)? You wonít need your counters, but Stifle might be useful versus Bridge or some of the creatures. Unfortunately, Ichorid seems to be gaining in popularity, which may well mean that you will need to devote some sideboard slots to hate it out (Leyline of the Void, since other decks suffer splash-hate from it). I would imagine that Pithing Needle is what you can most afford to take out (since Deed and Punishment sort of substitute for it).

+4 Stifle
+4 Energy Field
+3 Crime/Punishment
+1 Tundra

-4 Force of Will
-3 Mana Leak
-3 Ghastly Demise
-1 Wasteland
-1 Cephalid Coliseum


CRET Belcher: Win some, lose some. You need to counter Belcher to win. In fact, youíll probably lose game oneóespecially since your opponent is likely to use Empty the Warrens. For subsequent games, you gain Stifle, Crime/Punishment, Pithing Needle, and Energy Field, and these should help immensely. Even then, however, this is no bye; if you can survive the first kill condition that he casts, however, all you need is a single creature (of any size, really) to win. Post-board, you go into overkill mode.

+4 Stifle
+4 Energy Field
+3 Crime/Punishment
+3 Pithing Needle
+1 Tundra

-4 Intuition
-3 Ghastly Demise
-2 Wild Mongrel
-1 Cephalid Coliseum
-1 Eternal Witness
-1 Genesis
-1 Wonder
-1 Gigapede
-1 Darkblast


Burn: Oddly difficult. Aim to make your opponent feel that s/he should burn your creatures (thatís a mistake, unless death is imminent) in the first game, and counter significant spells headed your wayójust remember to save one for that Fireblast. Bring in Pithing Needle for Ghastly Demise, and use it to name Barbarian Ring (unless, of course, the deck youíre facing runs some critters like Ball Lightning). Hey, itís better than nothing. Also bring in Energy Field for Deed and Darkblast (unless youíre facing Ball Lightning-type decks): you should be able to play it and keep it alive long enough to stabilize, provided you donít have a Mongrel on the table. You could side out Mongrels for Stifle and hope to hit a fetchland; that might help, but I<m not a big fan.

+4 Energy Field
+3 Pithing Needle

-3 Ghastly Demise
-3 Pernicious Deed
-1 Darkblast

Raffinity/RafFOWnity: Honestly, this is ususally a really easy matchup for you. Deed and Punishment blow up their entire board, lands included, and Pithing Needle and Energy Field are also very relevant. So is your removal; win-win (for you). :tongue:
+3 Crime/Punishment
+3 Pithing Needle
+2 Energy Field

-3 Mana Leak
-3 Wild Mongrel
-1 Gigapede
-1 Darkblast


Moon Vineyard RG Beatdown (or whatever you want to call it): Favourable. Try not to let Magus of the Moon resolve. Even if he does, the Vineyards will give you the green mana that you need to win. Gigapede is a house. You could also take out Deed for Crime/Punishment, just to give you an edge against Needle (and to grab an Ascetic or something if you can hold off Blood Moon effects!). Your own Needles should hit Sword of Fire and Ice first, then Troll Ascetic.

+3 Crime//Punishment
+3 Pithing Needle
+1 Tundra

-3 Pernicious Deed
-1 Wasteland
-1 Cephalid Coliseum
-1 Psychatog

Various Stax Builds: Slightly unfavourable to yucky, depending on the build. Youíll want to counter Smokestack and Trinisphere (less important), and use Wasteland liberally on the manabase. A single safe fatty will win you the game, but youíll need to hold its hand the whole way through. Not yet sure about optimal sideboarding.

Random decks: You should crush most of these, largely thanks to Deed and, later, Crime/Punishment.

Some Issues:

Cephalid Coliseum Ė How good is it, really? Itís amazing when you have extra cards in hand; not so good when you donít. The only other options, however, are going back to cycle-lands (mmmno) or perhaps Dakmor Salvage (coming into play tapped is crappy, though). So I<m keeping it for now, but looking to future sets for a better option.

NOTES:


Q: There are currently lands, creatures, and sorceries in both players' graveyards, so my Tarmogoyf is 3/4. What happens when it gets targeted by Sudden Death?

A: You will have one fairly lethargic, but living, Tarmogoyf.

State-based effectsóthose wonderful bits of rules that do things like cause you to lose the game, clean up Auras that are no longer attached to anything, and destroy creatures with lethal damageóalso whisk away creatures with 0 toughness to the appropriate graveyard. However, SBEs aren't checked during the resolution of a spell or ability, but instead wait until after they've completely finished resolving and a player would gain priority again.

The last part of a spell's resolution is putting it into its owner's graveyard. Tarmogoyf is constantly rummaging around in people's graveyards trying to figure out how powerful it is (good thing it has eight fingers, otherwise it might have trouble with that). So by the time state-based effects are checked, the Sudden Death is already in its owner's graveyard and the Tarmogoyf has already gotten the go-ahead to pump itself up. The end result will be a 0/1 Tarmogoyf until the cleanup step, at which time it becomes a 4/5 again.

I can guarantee that such situations will come up, and they can really decide the game.

Bane of the Living
09-01-2007, 01:04 PM
Holy crap, you were sbing in Savannah for every matchup before your newer build. Now you sb a Tundra for every matchup! I love it I really do.

Why arent you just maindecking it?!

Goaswerfraiejen
09-03-2007, 03:29 PM
One change of note:

-3 Ghastly Demise
+3 Smother

It could just be a MWS fluke, but I'm sick of not being able to hit Black things (especially if they end up wearing Jittes). Smother hits pretty much every relevant creature in Legacy and isn't dependent on the graveyard (it's also easier to hit a Grunt with Smother): that's great. As for the fatties, well... the deck can deal, if it must. At least they're relatively few and far between; unfortunately, all too many of them have a black in their casting cost, so even Ghastly Demise wasn't working out so well. Two-mana removal is kind of iffy, but at least it's not invalidated by a Chalice at one--speaking of which, the FS matchup should be easier with Smother. :smile:

Other than that, I'm really waiting for a full Lorwyn spoiler: the prospect of new Incarnations as well as creatures with Evoke is quite exciting for this deck. Even Shriekmaw is giving me thoughts (but I don't think it'll fit, in the end).


Holy crap, you were sbing in Savannah for every matchup before your newer build. Now you sb a Tundra for every matchup! I love it I really do.

Why arent you just maindecking it?!

Well, there are a few reasons:

1.) It's part of a testing slot: I'm not sure if I want to run Crime/Punishment over EE, but if I do, it seems a waste not to have a source of white mana.

2.) I only side it in for matchups where Wasteland or Coliseum is less relevant; while one or the other will often be less good than Tundra, seldom will both be. Accordingly, it's hard to say what configuration is better. Overall, I'm not all that happy with Coliseum, but I'm also not convinced that there's anything that can do its job much better. It's great for pumping Tog, cycling through the deck, or recurring dredgers and so on, but I've found that I seldom need that more than the mana. Anyway...

3.) Who says I'm sideboarding ideally? :tongue:

Goaswerfraiejen
09-08-2007, 01:11 PM
Small update: I've (finally) given up completely on Energy Field in the sideboard. It was cool and unexpected, but so very, very janky. :smile:

It was all right versus Ichorid and Burn, but in the end I had to ask if I was really targetting the right matchups. With Breakfast on the rise, I suspect that graveyard hate would serve me better. Although, to be fair, it was always amazing when an opponent played Leyline against me and I busted out my Energy Field. :laugh:

In any case, I've replaced them with Extirpate for the simple reason (at the moment) that Leyline has a large mana/mulligan investment and is susceptible to bounce (unless you're holding counters) and enchantment hate, whereas Extirpate does its own thing all on its own. It can be useful against burn, most combo, and even Ichorid. It won't makes these matches one-sided for TarmoTog, but it will certainly go a fair way toward easing them, and that's important. Auto-losses suck. :smile:


I've still got my fingers crossed for Evoke and the incarnations, even though I suspect that they won't quite work/work well enough with the deck's concept.

Bardo
09-08-2007, 01:18 PM
Wow, Goaswerfraiejen. You've put a lot of work into this deck since I last checked. :)

Here's my latest U/G/x project:

Counter-Top GAT

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
3 Psychatog
2 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance

4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
3 Sensei's Diving Top

3 Smother
3 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Chrome Mox

4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard: Some combo of Duress, Deed, Darkblast (to win 'Goyf wars), Plagues--depending on the metagame.

The numbers are still up in the air, esp the Smother, Jitte slots which can be many things.

Solpugid
09-14-2007, 06:24 PM
Goaswerfraiejen (man that's a tough name to spell...), I really like the list you posted on the previous page except for some minor details.

First of all, have you considered dropping serum visions for ponder once Lorwyn is legal? I think it would be a great switch to make in...pretty much every deck that runs serum visions. Especially here, though because you can peek at your top three, and if you don't like them just replace the draw with a dredge and mill them all away. This is especially great for if you, say, want to draw a deed but can settle for darkblast.

Second, I'm not loving mana leak. This deck seems just as mana-intensive as threshold, even more so due to the recursion. Mana leak, as a control tool, seems weak to me. I would LOVE to suggest putting cabal therapy in their slot as more anti-combo and as a great way to sacrifice witness for more recursion. However, that makes the deck a tad low on blue cards for FoW. Have you tested that option, though?

Nice work with the demise-->smother, though. I definitely think smother is underrated, and extremely versatile in the format right now. So, let me know what you think.

Goaswerfraiejen
09-15-2007, 11:33 AM
First of all, have you considered dropping serum visions for ponder once Lorwyn is legal? I think it would be a great switch to make in...pretty much every deck that runs serum visions. Especially here, though because you can peek at your top three, and if you don't like them just replace the draw with a dredge and mill them all away. This is especially great for if you, say, want to draw a deed but can settle for darkblast.


Agreed. So long as Ponder is a sorcery, it's definitely replacing Serum Visions. If it's an instant, the call would be much tougher--but it looks pretty steady at sorcery-speed, so I suspect it'll stay that way. Because drawing the card comes after the option to shuffle, it's just that much better.


Second, I'm not loving mana leak. This deck seems just as mana-intensive as threshold, even more so due to the recursion. Mana leak, as a control tool, seems weak to me. I would LOVE to suggest putting cabal therapy in their slot as more anti-combo and as a great way to sacrifice witness for more recursion. However, that makes the deck a tad low on blue cards for FoW. Have you tested that option, though?


You've hit on a tough issue, one that I've been mulling over for some time now. Mana Leak is definitely better than Daze (and it's more playable in here than Counterspell), but it's not all that amazing, either. Cabal Therapy is a strong contendor for the slot, but I've not yet tested it. Instead, I've been enthralled by Extirpate, and have been testing it in Mana Leak's stead recently. The problem with that, of course, is that it's that much better when coupled with Mana Leak, since fewer threats hit the table. Cabal Therapy is definitely worth trying, and it's next on my testing list. As you said, though, it basically means going down to sixteen (seventeen, but you almost never want to remove Wonder) Force sources, including other Forces. And that's sort of sketchy--although it does work.

The other interesting option coming from Lorwyn is "Broken Ambitions:"

Broken Ambitions XU
Instant (common)
Counter target spell unless its controller pays X.
Clash with an opponent. If you win, that spellís controller puts the top four cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard. (Each clashing player reveals the top card of his or her library then puts that card on the top or bottom. A player wins if his or her card had a higher converted mana cost)

It suffers from the same problem as Mana Leak (being mana intensive when you've got a low mana count), but it's also a win-win: either you win (and you've got some high casting costs in the deck) and your opponent loses some goodies, or your opponent wins and your toolbox grows. Plus, it feeds Force. I'll be testing it as soon as it comes out, but really it's probably going to depend on whether the Clash only happens upon successful resolution/countering, or if it happens regardless. Paying U for toolbox (graveyard) access could prove very useful... perhaps even more so than a cantrip? Hard to say; cutting a cantrip would leave more disruption slots, however, which would really make for a strong disruptive suite. I suspect it won't work out the way I hope it will, but it's well worth keeping in mind because it could really push things over the top if it can be made to work out.

Nihil Credo
09-15-2007, 12:00 PM
Broken Ambitions is useless. If you win the clash, it mills your opponent ("that spell's controller"), and milling is a bad thing unless you plan on winning by decking; if you lose, nothing happens. Condescend would be strictly better than that.

My first candidate for replacing Mana Leak would be Spell Snare; keep in mind, however, that it's the kind of card that can be awesome or terrible depending on your metagame.

Goaswerfraiejen
09-15-2007, 12:18 PM
Damn, looks like I misread Broken Ambitions. Thought the loser milled. :frown: Never mind that, then.

Solpugid
09-15-2007, 05:40 PM
Yeah, but unfortunately condescend has the same problem in that it requires a fair bit of untapped mana. Spell snare I don't see as being very good, especially since smother already limits your ability to answer different CC's (does that even matter??).

Oh and by the way, if you drop the mana leaks for therapies you'll still have 18 blue cards, since tog counts. But you're right, wonder really shouldn't be pitched. If 18 still seems too low, I could see dropping the mana leaks for 3 stifle (stifle a fetch, go balls-to-the-walls, gg) and then drop a smother for one cabal therapy. That way you can tutor for the therapy if you need to (like, in order to pump tog to lethal and know there isn't a swords looming).

Goaswerfraiejen
09-15-2007, 08:01 PM
I did try Stifle for a time, but I wasn't as impressed--usually, I wanted a real counterspell just as much. Of course, the MWS "metagame" is... well, you know how it is. :tongue: If there were more combo running around, it would be another story, I'm sure. Still, Stifle is seldom dead.

You're right though, I forgot to count 'Tog. While 15/16 is do-able, 17/18 is a much, much better number. I've been trying the Cabal Therapies, and I rather like them, actually. More testing will tell, but right now I'm really sold on them. I'm also actually quite intrigued by the possibility of running 3 Stifle and 1 Therapy in the maindeck... that seems like it has some savage potential. I'll be trying that as well.

Thanks very much for the input.


EDIT 2: Yeah, so I just tried the split that you suggested, and I'm loving it. I think it's taking the deck up a notch. The other thing is that, with Therapy, it's probably worth reverting back to 4 Brainstorm and 3 Serum Visions (until Ponder comes out, at which point I'll need to rethink things). It also allows more freedom in the sideboard, which is getting scary: I basically left 1 Stifle in and added 1 Smother (just in case) and 2 Therapies. It looks very, very sexy, let me tell you.

Of course, I've only played one game with that configuration so far (against Landstill), but I love it. :tongue:

Solpugid
09-16-2007, 12:16 AM
Ok, here's the list I'm going to test when I get a chance.

3 Tropical island
3 Underground sea
1 Bayou
3 Windswept heath
3 Polluted delta
3 Basics (one of each)
1 Cephalid coliseum

4 Nimble mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wild mongrel
1 Eternal witness
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
1 Wonder
1 Psychatog

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of will
4 Intuition
3 Pernicious deed
3 Smother
2 Stifle
1 Darkblast
1 Life from the loam
1 Cabal therapy

Seems kinda janky with all those 1 and 2-ofs, but we'll see how it runs.

Goaswerfraiejen
09-17-2007, 12:57 AM
I've been testing with the changes that I've been raving about, Solpugid, and they're really working out quite well. The one thing that I've noticed, however, is that taking out a Smother to fit the Stifle/Therapy combination has put a lot more pressure on Darkblast (a problem that you've avoided in your own testing list by cutting elsewhere). Where once before it was good enough for the random creaturedeath.slot, I'm not convinced that its efficacy hasn't been compromised. Consequently, I've been wondering if it might not be worth replacing it with Stinkweed Imp once more. The Imp has obvious drawbacks (like attracting StP and other removal--which can certainly be a bonus), and he dredges for much more (which can go either way, really, but it's usually good), and he also lacks the luxury of targeting--on the other hand, he can deal with real problems that even Smother can't touch, and that could just prove to be the necessary complement to Smother. I'm going to be testing him again in the next few days. For reference, my own testing list is currently as follows:

2 Tropical island
2 Underground sea
2 Bayou
3 Windswept heath
3 Polluted delta
1 Forest
1 Swamo
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

4 Nimble mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wild mongrel
2 Psychatog
1 Eternal witness
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
1 Wonder
1 Stinkweed Imp

4 Force of will
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions (Ponder)
3 Pernicious deed
2 Smother
3 Stifle
1 Life from the loam
1 Cabal Therapy


The differences from your own are very minor, but it'll allow us to test the two most likely configurations for the deck in my mind.

Solpugid
09-17-2007, 03:47 AM
Just to quickly explain my reasoning for not going with your list:

Why do you need two togs? Barring swords, a single tog is all you need. You never really want more than one in play unless they have 1 blocker and you need to swing for lethal, but...goyf can do that just fine.

The other thing is the 3 visions/ponders. With only 17 lands I can see this deck getting mana screwed frequently, so I believe 8 cantrips to be necessity. They also do a great job of getting you to the cards you need when you need them (deed and FoW come to mind).

Finally, I'm not big on the imp. Not only is he a turn slower, but he does nothing to help your aggro-plan. That is, when you're going all out early on (like you mentioned you plan to do), smother clears blockers (like opposing goyfs) that would kill off your gooses or mongrels. Imp just comes into play and dares your opponent to attack. That's not proactive enough for a deck which doesn't NEED that much dredge. Loam does just fine, I think.

My problem with testing right now is that I'm studying abroad, so I don't have my cards, and my MWS isn't working. I ran the auto-update, but I can't actually play with the newer cards I put into decks. Any ideas what's up?

Mordenkain
09-17-2007, 07:25 AM
2 Tropical island
2 Underground sea
2 Bayou
3 Windswept heath
3 Polluted delta
1 Forest
1 Swamo
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

4 Nimble mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wild mongrel
2 Psychatog
1 Eternal witness
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
1 Wonder
1 Stinkweed Imp

4 Force of will
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions (Ponder)
3 Pernicious deed
2 Smother
3 Stifle
1 Life from the loam
1 Cabal Therapy

Some food for thoughts...

#1
The lone Cabal Theraphy. How often have it become useful? I mean, intuition looking for a cabal theraphy seems week to me for some reason.

#2
The basics. I not so sure on this one, but have the 3 basics saved you life that often? I can understand the forest, for loam, maybe the island as well, but the swamp doesnt seem needed to me.

#3
Any particular reasont to run Serum Visions above Portent? Portent is superior imo, mostly because it let you choose what card you draw, not just giving you a blind card. Also, it can be used offensively. Also, maybe you should take a look at the new one, Think (U, sorcery, rearrange top 3, draw a card).

Well, my time is out, I may have some more questions, ill get back to you.

- Mordenkain

Hanni
09-17-2007, 10:10 PM
I haven't messed around with Magic in a while as I've been extremely busy working 60 hours a week and getting drunk with friends. However, I've been patrolling the boards the past few days. By doing this, I reaquainted myself with the current metagame. It seems as though Threshold is at an all-time high. Goyf.dec seems to be everywhere. Goblins looks like it is on the decline... Threshold/r has a favorable matchup, the other Thresh versions are posting relatively 50/50 matchups or better vs Goblins, while combo continues to be on the rise. Along with Belcher and TES, it seems like Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid are also huge now.

It is my opinion that DAT is the best deck in this current metagame. It has a favorable matchup against the Threshold "mirror," a much stronger combo matchup than slower board control like Landstill, while seemingly strong matchups against the entire rest of the field.

It also seems as though land destruction strategies are on the decline. Non-recurring land destruction is usually bad vs Thresh due to the amount of cantrips and, as I said, it seems like Goblins is on the decline anyway. The U/G Thresh list utilizes some mana denial but I don't really think that is any reason why DAT cannot become a 4c deck. The deck can run a basic Forest and Island to play the majority of its spells along with a cantrip/Loam engine to easily allow it to run a 4c manabase.

Below is the current decklist that I spent the last few days tweaking. While I may have only spent a few days on the current list, keep in mind that I've been playing and tweaking DAT off and on since October 2006, so I'm not new to this archtype.

U/G/b/w DAT

Lands (19)
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland

Creatures (12)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Psychatog
1 Wonder
1 Genesis

Spells (29)
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard (15)
4 Stifle
2 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle

First of all, I'd like to justify my reasoning for the fourth color splash. As I mentioned above, it really is much less of a strain on the manabase than one may think. The deck runs 2 basic lands, 8 cantrips, and the Loam engine. This in itself will typically keep the manabase running smoothly. Additionally, the deck is only splashing white for 3 maindeck spells and black for 5 maindeck spells. Again, I am under the impression that land destruction is not nearly as much of a pressure in the current metagame as it used before Future Sight.

By splashing white, the deck gains access to the best spot removal in the format. While Ghastly Demise and Smother aren't necessarily bad replacements, they still do not compare to StP. My biggest concern, with a lack of StP, was the inability to answer a resolved Sutured Ghoul (which seems to be the most popular win condition for Cephalid Breakfast). It still answers a first turn Lackey, for the occasional Goblin matchup that this deck will have to play against from time to time. It's not only strong against Goyf like Smother is but it also answers randomness like Exalted Angel. The other reason for splashing white, which is almost as important if not more important, IMO, is for Gaddock Teeg. Gaddock Teeg is insane vs combo, shutting down just about every currently competitive combo deck that I can think of. Not only that, it's also nuts vs midrange decks like Landstill. I only included 3 in my sideboard because of its Legendary status. 3 should be plenty considering that I have additional combo and control hate cards between my sideboard and maindeck already.

I originally had 4 StP's in the maindeck and decided to cut 1 for a Darkblast. Basically, Darkblast and StP do the same thing to a first turn Lackey. The reason I decided to split them up and run a single Darkblast is because it is a tutorable and recurrable way for my Goyfs to win the Goyf vs Goyf war, which I'm sure is going to occur far often than it should.

As far as the manabase goes, this deck needs every bit of those 19 lands. This deck isn't Threshold... it really cannot afford to run the same amount of lands as Threshold. Not only does this deck run 4 less cantrips, it also runs higher cc spells. Yes, it has Loam to help the deck curve out higher. That's why I only run 19 lands instead of 22+. The deck needs to hit 2U to cast Intuition first before Loam even comes online. It also needs enough mana to be able to play and cast Deed when it doesn't have the Loam engine set up. My list is also 4c, so running only 17 lands would be nuts. The other thing to keep in mind is that this deck runs a couple of lands that don't produce colored mana. The most noticeable difference in my manabase is the Academy Ruins. It's very subtle but it's an extremely solid addition. I'm not a fan of Witness in this deck... 2G, 1GG, 1BG, X repeatedly just seems so slow for this deck, and very unecessary. With Ruins + EE, the deck has access to (addtional) recurrable removal if necessary. It also allows the deck to recur Tormod's Crypt (and even Pithing Needle in certain situations) if necessary. Ruins isn't always going to be a card you want to tutor for with Intuition but it's there if you need it, and it's not going to be dead since it still taps for mana. It's just a subtle addition and thusly I don't run a huge toolbox.

The 4c manabase makes EE a little better by allowing the deck to blow up 4cc stuff if necessary. 3 Deed 1 EE is a really nice combination, especially with the tutorable Ruins. 4 spot removal spells and 4 mass removal spells maindeck feels like a really strong blend.

I'm running Portent over Serum Visions and Ponder. I like how Portent screws my opponents topdecks. I usually don't care in most decks that I play with cantrips. In this deck, though, I find myself reaching the mid-late game quite often, where Portent can keep my opponent off of key spells with which to seal the game or recover with. Not only that, more often than not I don't need to rearrange my top cards anyway since I'm usually dredging them with Loam and/or using Coliseum to create card quality + card advantage anyway. The cantrips main purpose is to strengthen my early game. Later on, I use a better card quality engine in Coliseum so I might as well use half of those cantrips aggressively. It also draws me into Forces and Dazes early to further strengthen my early game.

I upped the Dazes to 4 to strengthen my early game even further. Getting set back a land usually isn't a problem since this deck still utilizes many Thresh-like tempo elements in cheap beaters, cheap cantrip, and cheap removal during the early game. It sometimes hurts to be set back a turn for casting Intuition, but generally it doesn't matter. Since my mid-late game is so strong, the early game was the only thing that really needed additional oomph IMO.

I decided to revert back to the 4/4/2 Goose/Goyf/Tog configuration. I know that I was a supporter of the Togless Mongrel version for a while, but I found that the 12 aggro pieces weren't really needed. I often found myself putting a few beaters on the table only to draw into a Deed. I normally only cast Tog as a finisher... occasionally I'll cast him if I need to pitch a Genesis or Wonder and I don't have a Coliseum (or Threshold), or I'll cast him if he's the only creature I have and I need a blocker. Otherwise, I simply use Goose and Goyf as my creatures. Relying on 8 for early aggression and defense allows me to Deed more effectively in limited testing. Not only that, but I free'd up 2 spaces. I love how the deck can transition from aggro/control to board/control to combo with the way my decklist is setup. The 4/4/2 gives me a reminiscent feel of the old control Thresh versions that ran 4 Goose 4 Bear 2 Enforcer, with the 2 Enforcers serving a similar role as the Togs do here... a finisher. I know that you, Solpugid, will question why I run 2 Togs instead of 1. The reason is simple... I don't plan on trying to tutor into Tog with Intuition. I plan on drawing into him and casting him ftw or dredging into him and recurring him ftw. I have quite a few Intuition targets that seem more important than grabbing Tog with Loam, Coliseum, and Genesis being the most important; Wonder and Wasteland are also important, with Ruins/EE being solid tutor targets. Occasionally I'll grab Tog but not often enough for me to want to run only 1.

As far as my sideboard goes, it's obviously going to vary per metagame, and it's also just something thrown together not only for now, but also based on personal preference. Stifle is there for Goblins, combo, and miscellaneous. Krosan Grip is there for decks with problematic artifacts/enchantments that I want a direct unanswerable answer to... like Thresh with Counterbalance. Extirpate is great against opposing control/card advantage decks like opposing Loam decks, Survival, Landstill, etc. It's also great vs decks with few win conditions, like the decks mentioned, as well as decks like Threshold (block Goyf with Goyf and Darkblast or Deed Goyf, Extirpate, lol...). I think Extirpate is a highly underated card at the moment. I also think it's strong against C Breakfast and Ichorid, despite the naysayers that say it sucks vs C Breakfast (D Returns, anyone?). The lone Crypt is tutorable and recurable with Intuition/Loam/Ruins and compliments the Extirpate, effectively giving the deck 4 graveyard hate spells. The Needles are just versatile answers to all sorts of randomess.

The lack of Duress (or Cabal Therapy) may potentially be an eyesore. I don't really think either is needed to be honest. The deck has sufficient control options between the maindeck and sideboard as it is... I don't think Duress or Cabal Therapy is really necessary. However, the lack of Duress looks like such an eyesore to me on paper. Maybe one day it will find it's way back into my deck.

Yea, I know that was lengthy. Yea, I know that most of that was pretty much a repeat of what has already been said. Yea, I know the rest is probably common sense. Whatever. I think that decklist is amazing... thoughts?

isdepopecatholic
09-17-2007, 11:04 PM
I've been doing some light testing of this on Apprentice, and it appears to be working for me, I may paper it up for some tournaments.

Goaswerfraiejen
09-25-2007, 09:12 AM
ow that we've got a full Lorwyn spoiler (and that some replies have piled up), I feel comfortable replying to the last few posts and throwing out a couple of new cards for examination. First, the posts:



Why do you need two togs? Barring swords, a single tog is all you need. You never really want more than one in play unless they have 1 blocker and you need to swing for lethal, but...goyf can do that just fine.

I definitely don't particularly want more than one in play, but I also want to be able to pitch one to Force of Will with a little impunity. I've felt very comfortable running two this last while since it acts as a fourth Mongrel (only more dangerous if necessary) or FoW fodder. I've noticed that only seldom does Tog pop up to win the game all on its own (thatís what Gigapede does!)--it often pops up to stall the game, however (even opposing Tarmogoyf tend to be reluctant to swing into it, and it generally forces your opponent to keep blockers). While it seldom attacks for very much more than one to three damage (you have to remember that using your graveyard can minimize your own creatures), it really has a huge impact on the field and on the way that your opponent plays. In the past, one was definitely enough for this; I always ran into the problem of pitching it to FoW, though, and having two makes this a much easier decision, in my opinion. I'd be interested to know if, say, the extra cantrip in a Tog slot makes its presence felt as much.


The other thing is the 3 visions/ponders. With only 17 lands I can see this deck getting mana screwed frequently, so I believe 8 cantrips to be necessity. They also do a great job of getting you to the cards you need when you need them (deed and FoW come to mind).

Could be. At first, the split was a temporary measure, but it's never really been fixed since. I have noticed, however, that the few games that are lost tend to be due to some form mana problems (usually when facing something with inordinate amounts of destruction, like Pox). Another cantrip would certainly increase consistency, and Ponder is an excellent contender. It's worth exploring againóthe question, as always, is where to fit it in.


Finally, I'm not big on the imp. Not only is he a turn slower, but he does nothing to help your aggro-plan. That is, when you're going all out early on (like you mentioned you plan to do), smother clears blockers (like opposing goyfs) that would kill off your gooses or mongrels. Imp just comes into play and dares your opponent to attack. That's not proactive enough for a deck which doesn't NEED that much dredge. Loam does just fine, I think.

Two turns slower, you mean. :tongue: I definitely agree about the drawbacks; my concern, however, is for the range of creatures that go beyond Smother's ability to contain; these can really be devastating. Darkblast doesn't really complement Smother in the same way. Perhaps, however, the answer lies more in some other removal spell. Ghastly Demise and Vendetta are certainly on the table, but I'd like to consider Pongify as well; it can be used as a combat trick (albeit not on a Mongoose, making it worse), it can pitch to FoW, it's got no creature limit (unlike Vendetta and Ghastly Demise), and few larger creatures worth worrying about have protection from blue. Of course, that would have an impact on the dredge engine aspect, some of it positive (reduced dependency), and some negative (reduced consistency). Loam is more important, though, so I'd like to give something like this a spin.


My problem with testing right now is that I'm studying abroad, so I don't have my cards, and my MWS isn't working. I ran the auto-update, but I can't actually play with the newer cards I put into decks. Any ideas what's up?

Sorry, not a clue. Maybe you need to delete (un-install) and re-install it?



Some food for thoughts...

#1
The lone Cabal Theraphy. How often have it become useful? I mean, intuition looking for a cabal theraphy seems week to me for some reason.


I did like it, but more in the early game--and it's obviously inconsistent. I guess that the larger issue is whether to run 3x Cabal Therapy maindeck, or 3x Stifle. I've reverted back to Stifle with Therapy in the board for the moment, but it's something that's become much more important now that Lorwyn has revealed Thoughtseize. I suspect that Cabal Therapy will prove more important for this deck due to its Flashback cost, but I'm still unsure as to the card's role in the deck. Itís been very strong in the maindeck, certainly. Tough decision, but itís basically just between Therapy and Stifle. The Flashback makes Therapy more desirable than Thoughtseize, I think, but more on that later.



#2
The basics. I not so sure on this one, but have the 3 basics saved you life that often? I can understand the forest, for loam, maybe the island as well, but the swamp doesnít seem needed to me.

I'd feel very uncomfortable without the basic lands--all three of them. The manabase is basically pretty borderline as it is, but losing the basics would open me up to far too much hate, I think. While mana hate is less prevalent than it once was in the format, UG Threshold seems to have risen in Goblinsí place, and weakening your manabase could have a large effect on your matchup, since you have to match Threshold in the early game, until you can overpower it. Likewise, Goblins seems poised for a black-based comeback, and that too has me worried about the manabase.



#3
Any particular reasont to run Serum Visions above Portent? Portent is superior imo, mostly because it let you choose what card you draw, not just giving you a blind card. Also, it can be used offensively. Also, maybe you should take a look at the new one, Think (U, sorcery, rearrange top 3, draw a card).


Portent didn't draw me the card on my turn, which is what I want and need--especially if itís to complement a borderline manabase and increase its consistency. In any case, the point is irrelevant now, since I'll be switching to Ponder.


Hanni - I've been very interested by just how similar our lists are; Iíve been considering trying to splash white for StP and Teeg for some time now, and I must say that I do like your version. It's certainly something that I need to consider more closely. I do have some concerns with your list (more specifically, about Dazeís utility, lack of !Gigapede! ( :wink ), and the weaker creature-base), but theyíre not significant. What I especially enjoy is how youíve brought in Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives and worked them into the white splashóvery nice. Of course, itís very reliant on Loam and being able to wait a turn, but I like it a lot. I think that if you go with a minor white splash, it makes more sense than Eternal Witness. Iím not sure that itís worth porting to strict BUG, however, since EE becomes much less effective, and Witness is still an easier recursion engine (besides, you can usually use Witness to cut down on what you fetch with Intuition). Needless to say, Iím very interested.

Actually, the biggest question that your decklist raises for me is the effectiveness of the Mongrels in my own: itís something that needs to be looked at more closely. To do so, Iíll be testing something very like what youíve posted for the next couple of days, to get a feel for how the deck works with the reduced aggression and increased control. Hereís what I propose to test:

Lands (19)

3 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland

Creatures (13)

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Psychatog
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede

Spells (28)

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
1 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard (15)

4 Extirpate
4 Gaddock Teeg
3 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Stifle


Now, letís look at some Lorwyn cards, shall we?

Ponder Ė Replaces Serum Visions, no questions asked.

Profane CommandóI could see this working out, but I think that the deck lacks the room for it.

ShriekmawóHas potential, but too limited in scope. If there were room, it might work as a one-of. But there isnít room.

ThoughtseizeóGreat card, too expensive. Besides, Cabal Therapy is probably better for us, given that we can recur it (and mongeese) fairly easily. All we need the disruption for is against combo; creature-based win conditions are pretty easy for this deck to handle, most of the time.

Bramble HornsóI could see this working out pretty well, but I donít see where it would fit in. Iíll keep it on my list for eventual testing, though.

Eyes of the Wisent (Wisened!)óI could see this working too, but I can only see it improving matchups that are already pretty good. Plus, thereís no real room for it.

LignifyóSince I was considering Pongify, this could certainly work. Worth keeping in mind, I suppose.

Mordenkain
09-25-2007, 03:38 PM
3 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland

Creatures (13)

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Psychatog
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede

Spells (28)

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
1 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard (15)

4 Extirpate
4 Gaddock Teeg
3 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Stifle

I must admit that the list looks extremely darn solid to me. I like the constant ratio of 3-ofs and 4-ofs and a nice tool box of 1-ofs for intuition.

What can I say about this list else. Did I mention it was a solid list? I'll look forward to see som results on how this fares at a tourny. Incredible devotion btw on the deck. Even after the deck had fallen to page god-knows-what then you still tested the deck. I respect that, thats the real spirit.

All the best and good luck.

- Mordenkain

Solpugid
09-25-2007, 06:09 PM
I really don't think that 1 EE and 1 ruins are worth the slots in this deck. There are at least two card splits you'll tutor with intuition before that group, and it somewhat forces you into a fourth color, which I think might be a mistake. The manabase just seems so...screwable. If you were to keep all four colors, drop the wasteland for another trop. Wasteland never seemed very good in here to me, because of how slow the recursion is AND how mana-hungry the deck is.

No mongrels is interesting, though. I suppose you do have enough beaters that you could safely do this, though it would drastically change the way the deck is played. Instead of aggro-->control it would be control-->alpha strike, I guess. If you really have concerns about creatures that can't be handled by smother, then drop in a few vedalken shackles. I've been running one in my threshold build, maindeck, and it's great against the randomness you'll face, but forces you into a more control-role. That's fine, if that's where the deck is headed.

Lorwyn doesn't seem to add much to the deck past ponder. All the other options are either too situational or too expensive. But eh, maybe I'm wrong.

Goaswerfraiejen
10-03-2007, 07:35 PM
I must admit that the list looks extremely darn solid to me. I like the constant ratio of 3-ofs and 4-ofs and a nice tool box of 1-ofs for intuition.


I've been testing it for a while now, but I can't say that I actually like it. Part of that, I think, is that it doesn't suit my preferred playstyle (predominantly aggro). The other part is that I've been having trouble getting the white mana for StP when I need it without exposing myself (either to manabase hate or screwing with the coloured requirements in my hand). The other problem I've been having is with Academy Ruins; it doesn't produce any colour, and recurring EE hasn't been stellar on its own. It creates a larger weakness in the deck than it shores up. It's a cool idea, but I can't really justify it to myself without maindecking some other cheap artifacts (like Jitte, for example), at which point it looks like a very cool but very different deck. I'm not gonna lie: a lot of my problem is simply that I don't feel as comfortable with that fourth colour and the change in role assignment. One of my favourite features of the 3-colour version was its ability to switch gears so quickly and so effectively, which is something that the fourth colour version has abandoned.




Incredible devotion btw on the deck. Even after the deck had fallen to page god-knows-what then you still tested the deck. I respect that, thats the real spirit.
All the best and good luck.


Thanks for the kind words. :smile:










I really don't think that 1 EE and 1 ruins are worth the slots in this deck. There are at least two card splits you'll tutor with intuition before that group, and it somewhat forces you into a fourth color, which I think might be a mistake. The manabase just seems so...screwable. If you were to keep all four colors, drop the wasteland for another trop. Wasteland never seemed very good in here to me, because of how slow the recursion is AND how mana-hungry the deck is.

As I said above, I'm agreeing on the Ruins, white, and EE. As for Wasteland, well... I've got to confess that I'm partial to it. It's mostly just a tutorable piece, and by no means should anyone playing this expect to use it as part of a lock. Its main advantages, for me, lie in its ability to protect spells that you need to resolve and stick (cutting out untapped mana to prevent counters/removal/etc.), and as free removal against Landstill. Not excellent reasons, I know; I do, however, think that it pulls its weight. You're very right to say that with four colours, Wasteland works against you. With three colours, however, I feel that it's worth it.



No mongrels is interesting, though. I suppose you do have enough beaters that you could safely do this, though it would drastically change the way the deck is played. Instead of aggro-->control it would be control-->alpha strike, I guess.

If anyone else has been wondering about this, it works. I don't like how it changes the deck's dynamic, though. I find that it throws the deck off kilter a bit--that is, if you take out Mongrel (aggression and pitching), you need to adjust the rest of the deck for a stronger orientation toward control. Myself, I'm going to be keeping the Mongrels at three.



If you really have concerns about creatures that can't be handled by smother, then drop in a few vedalken shackles. I've been running one in my threshold build, maindeck, and it's great against the randomness you'll face, but forces you into a more control-role. That's fine, if that's where the deck is headed.

Good suggestion, but it was mostly idle musing on my part. Smother works more than well enough. One option would be to drop a Smother for a Shriekmaw (which is easier to recur), but I haven't tested it. It's a pretty sexy idea, though.


For the record, I've decided to stick to BUG. I've made a few adjustments to accomodate the Source tournament currently underway (mostly to the sideboard, maindecked Extirpates and added a Tropical Island), and nothing serious has come of it. I think that it may be worth adding a third Tropical Island to smooth our opening hands, but it's not really a huge tweak.

In the next while, I plan to test with a lone Shriekmaw to complement Smother, and with Gaddock Teeg hiding in the sideboard somewhere (I suspect he may actually be overkill, but we'll see).

slyfer
10-04-2007, 02:54 AM
I'm toying with both decklists (original by gowensjengen and by hanni).
I found a feeling of "slowness", I mean compared threshold we have an higher casting cost with deed + intuition, the last is very key for the deck to work.
I thought about throwing in some mox diamonds, but they require:
1) more lands, more slot to "manabase" so we lose something
2) not so sexy with pernicious deed.

Smother is ok, together with deed we have a removal for everything. So UGb is ok for me.

As regards mongrel I think this:
1) often I play intuition for loam-wonder-genesis, they give me genesis, and I need a discard engine. Genesis works from graveyard, out there would be plowed.
2) daze replace mongrel in a more controllish.... it's a good card, and with 4 duress sideboard can do some disruption to combo.

Explosives:
Often Cret belcher play all the hand for say 14 goblin turn 1. It's the only out against them, other than playing diamond for a turn 2 deed or having a force active.

Sure the deck ha potential but it's a bit slow and has few counters compared to threshold...

Solpugid
10-04-2007, 04:48 AM
The reduced combo matchup, when compared to thresh, is more than tolerable if your meta has hand/board control decks (truffle, landstill, etc.) since your creatures recur; threshold's don't. You also have a better chance of out-pacing survival decks.

Mox diamond is not at all possible, but not because of deed. You need at least 22 (or so) lands to run them, plus the moxen themselves. That cuts a total of 8 or 9 useful cards from this deck (including potential tutor targets).

Mongrel is only needed to pitch genesis if you don't have gigapede, which should be in your pile. Really, there are two intuition splits you want: gigs, genesis, and wonder; or loam, coliseum, __. That __ will change based on your deck/what you need. Another great split is deed, deed, deed or FoW, FoW, FoW in a pinch.

The creature split is for if you already have a bunch of creatures (in play/dead), as it gives you a beater, a way of bringing your dudes back, and a way of using your creatures to finish off the game.

The loam/land split is for regaining control of the game, or for getting to spells you really need asap. IE, if you need combo protection use this split to set up a draw engine (or trip FoW I guess), or if you have a puny psychatog this can make it a threat. The extra card can be variable. If you run wasteland, you can get it. Or, grab a genesis. If they give it to you, dredge loam for some fuel for later (if genesis hits the bin, like, from coliseum) and cast loam. You then have a 4/4 in hand, that they don't want to kill, as well. Not too bad. If they give you loam...what are they stupid?

Anyway, this is pretty much theory as I haven't had a chance to test much at all, so ppl can tell me if I'm way off, but that's how I would play the tutors.

Of course, this gets back to the 'mongrel or no' debate. I, for one, am an advocate for keeping them if only to speed up the deck (since yeah, it's pretty slow).

What would this deck look like if the loam engine was dropped, by the way? The mana would be a tiny bit better, and the loam could be a stinkweed imp to preserve dredge but improve genesis...well, maybe that would just be a worse version, nevermind.

Holy crap, long post!

Nihil Credo
10-04-2007, 08:09 AM
Even with Mongrels in the deck, I usually played aggro for at most two turns. On turn 3, against pretty much every deck, I wasn't playing more threats, but rather casting Intuition for dredgers/Incarnations/Gigapede.

IMO, Mongoose and Goyf both clearly deserve a spot in the deck, both because they're so darn difficult to get rid of. But Mongrels and Psychatogs are far less critical to the deck.

Goaswerfraiejen
10-05-2007, 12:31 AM
Explosives:
Often Cret belcher play all the hand for say 14 goblin turn 1. It's the only out against them, other than playing diamond for a turn 2 deed or having a force active.



Depends on which version of the deck/sideboard you're going with, but my own still has Crime/Punishment in the board, which deals with EtW tokens just as easily as Explosives does. It's a little better, actually, in that it can't get hit by Pithing Needle, and it's harder to hit with Chalice.

The real problem with CRET Belcher and storm combo in general is Tendrils of Agony, which is a lot harder to stop if it's not chained off of Ill-Gotten Gains.



Sure the deck ha potential but it's a bit slow and has few counters compared to threshold...

It runs about 3-4 counters less than your typical Threshold build, yes. On the other hand, it's got more pro-active solutions (like Deed, for example) that don't actually need to be in your hand to be effective. I feel that it's an even tradeoff.


By the way, I've been testing the post-Lorwyn maindeck with Portent and Shriekmaw, and it's awesome! Sshriekmaw is an excellent complement to Smother, especially since he can be recurred and Evoked for the same cost as casting a Gigapede. Ponder is also proving itself more than worthy of its inclusion over Serum Visions, especially since it makes the decision to dredge that much easier. I'm really loving these two small changes.

Goaswerfraiejen
11-07-2007, 03:34 PM
I just want to point out that I'm very excited to see that a VERY similar list made ninth at a fairly large tournament in Japan recently (http://f18.aaa.livedoor.jp/~nameless/AMC/AMC_29th_E.html). Granted, a lot of the decks being played there were weird/sub-optimal, but it's still nice to see that a similar list managed to do well. The list was the following:

4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Barren Moor
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Brainstorm
3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Life from the Loam
1 Smother
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Damnation
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Cunning Wish

1 Shriekmaw
1 Eternal Witness
2 Psychatog
4 Tarmogoyf

SB:

1 Seedtime
1 Plagiarize
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Hideous Laughter
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Constant Mists
1 Teferi's Response
1 Stifle
1 Forbid
1 Misdirection
1 Krosan Grip
4 Extirpate


As you can see, it's very similar: Replace Stronghold with Genesis and Gifts with Intuition, and you've almost got TarmoTog. The creature package is smaller, but still based around Tarmogoyf and Psychatog. Clearly, s/he opted for a larger control package. S/he is also using some ideas that were considered at one point or another in the deck's history: cycling lands and Wishes foremost among them, but even Coliseum, Shriekmaw and Witness recursion, etc.. I don't want to be arrogant enough to say that this person's deck is based on my own, but the similarities are striking; our concepts are very similar. Looking at it and its placement, however, I definitely think that my own list presents a stronger option overall (at least in the generalized internet Legacy metagame) due to its much more aggressive component. Anyway, enough stroking my ego: congratulations are in order for a high placement with a very similar list, regardless of the weird metagame.

I mentioned this list because I think that it reaffirms many of the choices that I've made in building the deck, but also because lately I've been wondering whether I should include Volrath's Stronghold in the maindeck or SB to combat Genesis-hate. My own inclination is to say no, since it would both eat our draws as well as dilute an already tenuous manabase.

Just for reference, here's the list that I'm running (with, might I add, great success--all I need is some kind of local Legacy scene):

3 Windswept heath
3 Polluted delta
3 Tropical island
2 Underground sea
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

4 Nimble mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wild mongrel
2 Psychatog
1 Eternal witness
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
1 Wonder
1 Shriekmaw

4 Force of will
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Pernicious deed
2 Smother
2 Extirpate
1 Life from the loam


SB: (This one's very much a metagame choice, but a good general sideboard.)

1 Extirpate
1 Tundra
2 Pithing Needle
3 Crime/Punishment
4 Stifle
4 Cabal Therapy/Duress


I've got to say that I'm so very, very impressed with Shriekmaw. The added possibility of aggression is nice, but what's even better is that he easily avoids Counterbalance--although Stifle can be a problem. I've been wondering about increasing their number, but I'm not sure if that's a wise decision, metagame considerations aside.

Waikiki
11-08-2007, 05:20 PM
I really like the japanese list. Cause it's more towards controll (my playstyle)

What I wonder is if all those wish targets are actually needed and if wish is even needed for that matter.

Also I like gifts more because of gaining 2 card. This could also just be my Controll player talking there.

Is the combo matchup good enough with only force and counterspell. Isn't some sort of discard needed?

Goaswerfraiejen
11-09-2007, 04:49 PM
Also I like gifts more because of gaining 2 card. This could also just be my Controll player talking there.



Two cards is sweet, but the problem that I have with it--even in that list--is that all of those cards must have different names, which prevents you from using what Bardo has so eloquently called the "Oh Shituition" (grabbing three of any card--usually Force or Deed--because otherwise you'll die). Four mana also means that it's going to come online a turn slower, which is unfortunate. The increased land count will help, but it's worth remembering that a number of those lands come into play tapped, and you usually just want to cycle them.



Is the combo matchup good enough with only force and counterspell. Isn't some sort of discard needed?

I agree: I don't think it's enough. I think that list clearly sacrificed a stronger combo matchup for a stronger general aggro matchup--and if we look at the other decks there, combo didn't exactly have a strong showing. Even my build has some issues with combo, and it runs (when you include the SB) 12 disruption pieces plus 6 cards to deal with EtW tokens, and a possible three more disruption pieces against graveyard-based combo.

I don't think we should get too hung up on that list, simply because it was gunning for a vastly different metagame. If you want to go the control route it's a good example, but I feel that it runs too many sweeper effects for anything like the "current online metagame" (by which I mean the metagame promoted by The Source and other sites). Also, I think that a Wishboard is simply too distracting--it's a cool thing, sure, but not game-winning. Besides, Intuition is basically Cunning Wish here. If you're bent on running Wishes, Living Wish will be better for you because it will get solutions for problematic matchups (Tabernacle/Maze of Ith/Glacial Chasm, Yixlid Jailor/Withered Wretch, etc.--plus it could nab whatever Swords to Plowshares removes), and it will do it a turn faster. By the way, I think that even the control-ish build could use Gigapede. He's my big game-breaker; I don't know how I managed without it.

slyfer
11-09-2007, 06:02 PM
I'm testing a deck similar (counters to control hand, and pernicious deed to control the board) but with 4 tarmagoyf 3 tombstalker (and i have also 2 slot more for other creatures).

the rest of the deck is fow, snare, stifle, counter, cunning wish, smother, braisntorm and 3 fact or fiction.

It's like tarmohold in extended

ebbitten
11-10-2007, 11:58 PM
Just for reference, here's the list that I'm running (with, might I add, great success--all I need is some kind of local Legacy scene):

3 Windswept heath
3 Polluted delta
3 Tropical island
2 Underground sea
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

4 Nimble mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wild mongrel
2 Psychatog
1 Eternal witness
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
1 Wonder
1 Shriekmaw

4 Force of will
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Pernicious deed
2 Smother
2 Extirpate
1 Life from the loam


SB: (This one's very much a metagame choice, but a good general sideboard.)

1 Extirpate
1 Tundra
2 Pithing Needle
3 Crime/Punishment
4 Stifle
4 Cabal Therapy/Duress





I honostley have been in desperate need of green a couple times, has this ever been a problem?

Goaswerfraiejen
11-11-2007, 02:42 PM
I haven't been able to give your version a spin yet, Bardo, but I'll let you know when I do. My MWS is sort of broken at the moment. =/



I honostley have been in desperate need of green a couple times, has this ever been a problem?

Nope, not since moving to three Tropical Islands. Unless you're facing heavy or recurring land destruction, in which case it's definitely going to be a problem. Are you having trouble with the lands in discard/LD situations, or in your opening hands? If it's the latter, you basically only want to keep hands with at least two lands or one land and 1-2 cantrips.

ebbitten
11-11-2007, 03:17 PM
Eh i think it was just MWS being weird, i'm not really having any trouble any more.

Edit: Wild mongrel's been feeling a bit weak, has anyone else been thinking it would be better of being something else?

slyfer
11-12-2007, 05:45 AM
Ok, I throw in my list
@Bardo: tombstalker is not good with mongoose and atog, he is just a finisher that let you play it with mana open to counterspell. I play 3 tombstalker and wins with only 1 in

play

I think I will cut force of will, because
1) I realize that in legacy there is simply no "bombs" like in vintage
2) blue card count problems, expecially after board, I don't want dead card in hand, fow with no blue card is a dead card and you think "oh, would I cast this fact or fiction or

not?"
3) the second force of will is a 5UU counterspell, too expensive
4) force is only a response to a turn1 lackey, but we have tons of removals for that
5) The suite duress- spell snare - counterspell can handle everything

So my list
27 mana sources (4 mox diamond 4 wasteland 6 cycle-land, the rest all duals and fetchs)

8 wins: 3 tombstalker 4 tarmagoyf 1 genesis

25 spell:

4 pernicious deed (best mass removal)
4 counterspell
4 spell snare

3 life from the loam (cycle, dredge, wasteland rec, pro land destruct., mox diamond)

4 braisntorm
3 fact or fiction
3 cunning wish (take cards removed for stalker, take more cards)

SIDE (really customizable, it's just an example)
4 extirpate
1 hideous laugther
1 constant mist (tech with life from the loam -> goblin = bye)
1 fact or fiction
1 slaughter pact
1 krosan grip
2 blue elemental blast
4 sun droplet (burn = bye)

Media314r8
11-12-2007, 09:13 AM
Deed doesnt seem so hot with mox diamond. Why not just run damnation. Usually faster, (save vs EtW tokens) and this deck doesnt seem worried about chalices. (genesis, TS) I think the additional colored mana is worth killing the board instantly and not killing your own moxen. (genesis recursion next upkeep)

slyfer
11-12-2007, 10:05 AM
I'm testing mox diamond because
1) I play 3 life from the loam
2) I play expensive spells like fact or fiction or wish or deed.

It's never been a problem nuking my one/two mox, it's better to have some chances to make a turn 2 wish or turn 3 fact...

Goaswerfraiejen
11-12-2007, 06:55 PM
I just want to quote a post made by Nihil that got merged into BUG Threshold because I think that it hits pretty damn close to the truth, and it starts to really show the difference between the two decks:




A key part of TarmoTog (which, by the way, desperately needs a better name) is its ability to "switch gears" and Intuition into some sort of recurring engine, whether it's Genesis, Gigapede, or Life from the Loam. This gives it a great lategame, especially against aggro-control decks.


Before I say anything else, I want to acknowledge and reiterate that the deck desperately needs a better name. Calling it TarmoTog was really cool at the time because it was the only deck that mixed the two, and it was pretty much the only Tarmo-deck hanging around (in name, that is). Now that the metagame is saturated with Tarmo-This and Tarmo-That, it's horribly uncool and probably turns people off. Also, now that every Tog deck runs Tarmogoyf, it's not really descriptive, either. And since claiming first doesn't work in Magic.... kudos and maybe a free crap card of some sort to whoever can suggest something better and more descriptive (preferably without "Tarmo" in the title).

Also, Nihil is right to point out that one of the key features I had in mind while I was developing the deck was versatility of role assignment; while it's possible to win without switching, usually it's the switch that wins you games. That, and the fact that everyone assumes you're playing funky Threshold until you cast Intuition.


Now, to actually address concerns:




Edit: Wild mongrel's been feeling a bit weak, has anyone else been thinking it would be better of being something else?


Testing showed that you can indeed play without Mongrel, it just means that your role assignment is going to lean much more heavily toward control. That's not to my own personal taste, but it can work--certainly, there's no complaint about the potential for increased control elements. I don't think that there's another creature in the same mana class (1-2) that can quite compare, however--the closest you'll find, I think, is River Boa (and while I haven't actually tested it and I'm sure it's awesome), but I have some problems with that idea:

1.) Mongrel is first and foremost a discard outlet, second a beater.
2.) Mongrel is a deterrant. I actually stumbled on this accidentally: while you usually won't discard much of your hand to kill an enemy beater, you can, and this alone will keep away armies of 2-3 beaters for a few turns--even Tarmogoyf (usually one with less than five toughness). It makes it hard for your opponent, because while attacking seems like the best option, s/he has to weigh in the fact that you don't care too much about what goes to the grave, and you also get to choose what to kill. Attacking thus seems like a good choice, but perhaps not the best. Basically, what I'm saying is that it helps to increase your opponent's potential to make mistakes.
3.) Mongrel changes colour to avoid Shriekmaw and most black removal, which is nice. Hasn't been necessary yet, but just having that extra protection is nice.

To Boa's credit, he would survive a Deed, and the mana investment isn't so bad given what the Boa does (like block Tarmogoyf). Islandwalk is also awesome, although it's unfortunate that it also means that you can't force trades to save removal, but that's only a minor issue at best. The bigger problem is that the Boa will only ever swing for two, and he'll never help you to discard.

So yeah--I'm fond of the Mongrels and I think that they're the best creature to occupy the slot, but I'd definitely love to hear and try any suggestions that you might have. My penchant is for aggro, so I like the critters, but good non-creature options are important to test, and I'm not unwilling to try anything.



slyfer: I'll be open in that I don't like the list that you're proposing. Part of the reason for that is that it's too control-y for my taste, but the other part is that I'm not convinced that Wish and FoF are actually better options than Intuition. Cunnish Wish just doesn't seem to grab anything particularly important, and FoF... well, it's a great card, but the mana investment is hefty and I'm not sure that the gain is significant enough, given the lack of early options and so on. I think it's the right choice for the deck that you built, but I think that a deck built around an Intuition engine is just stronger overall.

Also, like I said earlier, I think that Living Wish gives far more options to help resolve problematic matchups--Cunning Wish mostly helps matchups that are already pretty good. I just don't see it being as good as Living Wish would be--especially since Living Wish can grab Tarmogoyfs that have been removed by Swords to Plowshares.

Also, I don't think that Genesis is pulling its weight in your list. The fact that there's no easy way to put it into the graveyard if you draw it is really turning me off--I think that Volrath's Stronghold is just stronger, unless you want a beater--in which case Gigapede is amazing.

I like that everyone's coming back to Tombstalker, but I'm not sure that it can really fit into the deck any more. Certainly, it fits if you make some pretty hefty modifications (such as Slyfer's list). I will say this, though: a build with Tombstalker and Living Wish sounds like it could be formidable. :wink:

adrieng
11-15-2007, 01:18 PM
I am not testing tarmo tog but the deck i am playing looks really like tarmotog.
If you want a creature that has the same role of wild mongrel i ld suggest vinelasher kudzu. I really think this card has a lot of potetntiel and isnt enough played.In my testing kudzu is usually bigger than tarmogoyf (when i play it turn two or three)He do can easily become a 5/5 or 7/7.
My list is different cause i am more aggroish and i am playing the dreadnought kill.

creatures

4 dreadnought
4 tarmogoyf
4 vinelasher kudzu
3 psychatog
3 sylvan protector

draw engine

4 intuition
1 life from the loam

utility

4 brainstorm
4 stifle
3 trickbind
4 force of will
3 cabal therapy

mana base

3 tropical island
3 island
1 cephalid coliseum
1 bayou
1 underground sea
4 polluted delta
4 fetch green
2 flooded strand


The cards i need more testing are sylvan protector cabal therapy.
What i am hesitating to play is trinket mage or counterbalance or spel snare+daze
or removal(smother shriekmaw) or dark confidant.
Thanks for the comments.
What i ll never do is playing wild mongrel instead of kudzu kudzu is nearly has good as tarmogoyf.Try it with at least 10 fetch and you will see that he is gold.

Nihil Credo
11-15-2007, 02:17 PM
Is Sylvan Protector supposed to be Sylvan Safekeeper? If so, that's pretty fucking cool.

The Therapy, though, doesn't look terribly awesome - it would be if it could sac a stranded Dreadnough, but it can't since it is a sorcery. Duress or Thoughtseize would work better in that slot. Or Dark Confidant, which is always awesome, and twice as much when it's protected by the Safekeeper. Removal is also an option, but I guess you're counting on always having the biggest guys on the board, right?

Regardless, 1x Genesis is almost surely worth a slot somewhere: it allows you to Intuition for a satanic laugh in the face of control players.

adrieng
11-15-2007, 02:37 PM
Yes sylvan safekeeper i wanted to say^^
But actually the two cards i like the least are sylvan safekeeper
(i know it s game when you have the dreadnought in play but it doesn t do anything on his own testing to see if its worth) and cabal therapy i play it only because i play sylvan safekeeper i dont like dead cards .That s it; some options are as you said dark confidant .
Maybe the best option is 3 sensei+3 counterbalance it has been proved in all others aggro control decks.
And because of that i lost a lot of time against counterbalance deck's;
the best way of beatings it is playing it maindeck???
So trinket mage could be tested also.
Lots of possibilities are vailable....

Solpugid
12-04-2007, 12:29 PM
Having finally arrived home from New Zealand, I was reunited with all my cards and decided to test this deck. I tried a few lists before settling on my own, which is the mess that follows:

Lands: 19
3 Tropical island
3 Underground sea
1 Bayou
4 Polluted delta
2 Windswept heath
1 Flooded strand
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Cephalid coliseum
1 Volrath's stronghold

Creatures: 15
4 Nimble mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Shriekmaw
1 Eternal witness
1 Gigapede
1 Genesis
1 Psychatog
1 Wonder

Other spells: 26
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of will
2 Spell snare
2 Daze
4 Intuition
2 Pernicious deed
2 Engineered explosives
1 Life from the loam
1 Darkblast

I have a feeling some of the splits (daze and spell snare in particular) may be better as one or the other, but this deck has done well in testing. I was really close to cutting the last psychatog, but I liked being able to swing for 15 or so late-game to just to knock a player out. Plus, he provides an extra way of getting incarnations and such in the yard.

I was originally skeptical about witness and gigs (they both seemed extraneous), but they have both been stellar for me. I was also originally dying to get white in here for StP, but I found that the removal suite this deck can support is more than enough. Pretty much every creature that can't be killed via shriekmaw is weaker than goyf (who'd-a-thunk-it?).

I added the volrath's stronghold as a 19th land, because this deck can get very mana-hungry AND because it can be part of the intuition split of loam+coliseum+stronghold, which sets up most of your game. This could be wasteland, but seeing as mana-denial is not a theme in this deck it seemed sorta underwhelming.

Deed, despite the fact that mongoose/goyf+deed=not a combo, has been awesome as well. I started with four, then cut one (then two) for EE, but I'm thinking of going back up, especially now that the land-count has increased.

So, spell snare in place of daze? Daze is fantastic, but there were plenty of times when I needed to ramp my mana for intuition or deed and was unable because of daze (i.e. I needed to counter something, and didn't have the choice to just let it resolve). Has anyone else had this problem?

Finally, here's the sideboard I'm considering:

4 Duress (if you're boarding them in, you usually don't need to hit creatures; plus, I don't have thoughtseizes yet)
4 BEB (could be E plague if goblins is around)
4 Leyline otV/crypt/extirpate (thoughts?)
3 Krosan grip

[/necro]

Goaswerfraiejen
12-04-2007, 08:14 PM
Having finally arrived home from New Zealand, I was reunited with all my cards and decided to test this deck.

Yay! Glad you like it, by the way.



I was originally skeptical about witness and gigs (they both seemed extraneous), but they have both been stellar for me. I was also originally dying to get white in here for StP, but I found that the removal suite this deck can support is more than enough. Pretty much every creature that can't be killed via shriekmaw is weaker than goyf (who'd-a-thunk-it?).

Knew you'd come around. Gigapede is actually probably the best creature in the deck, in my opinion--pretty much every game that I win is won by him. :tongue:

I myself have been considering more Shriekmaws (at least one, anyway), just because they're so great. I still like the Mongrels, though, so that takes up a few slots that I could otherwise devote to other cool things.

What interests me most about the list you're testing is Mongrel's absence. We established a while ago that the deck could function perfectly well with or without them. That was some time ago, however, and now that we've got Shriekmaw and stuff, I'm curious as to how you're finding that games play out. On paper, it looks like the deck would need a little more mana, but I'd like to know how true that's proving for you. Five mana or more is obviously going to be ideal for both our builds, but I don't usually feel too uncomfortable with just three or four. Would you say it's about the same, or that the increased number of control elements want a tad more?


I added the volrath's stronghold as a 19th land, because this deck can get very mana-hungry AND because it can be part of the intuition split of loam+coliseum+stronghold, which sets up most of your game. This could be wasteland, but seeing as mana-denial is not a theme in this deck it seemed sorta underwhelming.

I've been considering it as well, and I'm glad to see that you've had some positive results with it. Wasteland is a nice trick, but too often that's all it is, since it's just a singleton. It certainly has its uses (notably versus Lands, Landstill, and Karakas), but it's--as you rightly said--hardly a pillar of awesomeness.



Deed, despite the fact that mongoose/goyf+deed=not a combo, has been awesome as well. I started with four, then cut one (then two) for EE, but I'm thinking of going back up, especially now that the land-count has increased.

Again, I agree; my own experience showed Deed to be much more useful than EE. With only three colours, EE only really destroys things that the deck can already handle. Deed is useful as a reset button, but also because you can smack just about anything out of the way if the game drags on. Things that cost four mana tend to be far more threatening for the deck (like Leyline, for example :wink:).


So, spell snare in place of daze? Daze is fantastic, but there were plenty of times when I needed to ramp my mana for intuition or deed and was unable because of daze (i.e. I needed to counter something, and didn't have the choice to just let it resolve). Has anyone else had this problem?


I tried and dismissed Daze early on for the same reasons: you need that mana early on. Your early game is crucial for setting up Intuition--->win, and losing that land drop is awful. You can survive some early attacks on your mana base, but Dazing lands away on top of that really sucks. Personally, I don't think that, in this case, Daze's benefits outweigh its shortcoming. The only decks I'd really want Daze against would be storm combo decks, but that's not really enough to warrant including it. Plus, it's absolutely useless later on. I liked Mana Leak in its place, but Spell Snare is really probably a better option at the moment since it counters anything you'd want Daze to.


[qupte]
4 Duress (if you're boarding them in, you usually don't need to hit creatures; plus, I don't have thoughtseizes yet)
4 BEB (could be E plague if goblins is around)
4 Leyline otV/crypt/extirpate (thoughts?)
3 Krosan grip

[/QUOTE]

Duress should be fine; I don't think Thoughtseize is really necessary at all: the matchups you need to sideboard for are mostly combo matches (perhaps a little less so for your version, which has more counterspells)

How's BEB playing out for you? It's not something I've ever considered, but I can definitely see it being useful. It might be worth running Stifle instead, though.

Personally, I've really had a good experience with Extirpate, but Leyline or Crypt are obviously better if you're expecting a heavy graveyard presence--Ichorid especially. If you're planning on seeing a lot of Ichorid and burn, one amusing trick might be to just run Energy Field (since a lot of Ichorid decks MD LotV now), but that's a tad janky. :tongue:


And so I come to my one quibble with your sideboard: Krosan Grip. I really don't think it's necessary if you consider that Deed (and, in the above list, EE) does (do) the same thing, and often more. I suspect those slots would be better used by Stifle or Pithing Needle.


Thanks for posting (and necroing); I'm glad to see you're still interested. Your list has also given me a few things to think about for my own, which is great (except for the fact that it's exam season :wink:).

Nihil Credo
12-04-2007, 09:23 PM
Thought I'd also post how the deck's been evolving in my hard disk in the last weeks. For what it's worth, I have also moved the file from my 'Aggro-Control' folder to the 'Midrange' one... because after dropping the Mongrels, that's how it's been playing like.

My main changes were:

- Dropped Mongrels: this has already been discussed.
- Cut Wonder: with the addition of Shriekmaw, achieving board superiority is easier than ever. This card just clogged the hand.
- Cut Daze: same thing you've seen, this deck loves its land drops.
- Cut Darkblast: the card just doesn't do enough in the meta.

This was replaced with:

- 3x Shriekmaw: I'm not thrilled with it costing two and not hitting black creatures, but it's too effective not to adopt. Plus, Deed and EE can take care of the odd Dark Confidant.
- An Academy Ruins toolbox: 1 Ruins, 1 EE, 1 Crypt, plus additional copies in the SB (there used to be a Needle too, but it was cut for not doing enough). Frankly, this should have been in from day 1. Ruins+EE lock is so powerful against so many decks. Drop a Tarmogoyf to stall the ground, then Intution for Loam, Ruins, EE and you've almost locked the game out.

The latest version of the deck:

// Lands
1 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [UNH] Forest
3 [PR] Underground Sea
2 [PR] Tropical Island
3 [PR] Bayou
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [UNH] Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [UNH] Swamp

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [PR] Eternal Witness
2 [OD] Psychatog
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [ON] Gigapede
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw

// Spells
4 [PR] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [PR] Force of Will
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
4 [LRW] Ponder
2 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate -> These were extra Crypts, until I realized that Crypts will never eat a Life from the Loam.
SB: 2 [RAV] Life from the Loam -> Questionable use of SB slots, but I think the easiest way for this deck to lose is to get its lands destroyed
SB: 4 [9E] Bottle Gnomes -> Can be recycled with both Genesis and Academy Ruins. I like to have them against Burn and Sligh, but in a more Goblins meta these slots should go to Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [PR] Duress

Tao
12-04-2007, 09:41 PM
You already play a Trinket Mage toolbox, so how about...Trinket Mage. 2 of them are not bad. Plus you can add one Top which is a great card with Dredge and a SB Needle.

If you really need Lifegain play Darkheart Sliver over Gnomes. Cheaper, more power and randomly strong against Counter Sliver.

Nihil Credo
12-04-2007, 10:05 PM
The Trinket Mage is an option I'd considered and dismissed. Realistically, I'd have to cut either Togs or Mongeese for it; I don't like cutting the first because of their finishing ability, and the second because of curve issue. Besides, after dropping Needle I am left with just two targets in the deck - although I suppose I could add a Top.

Darkheart Slivers were actually what I ran before the Bottle Gnomes. I switched to Gnomes admittedly on a whim, after getting cut off from green mana in one game, and being forced to blow up EE@2 in another, losing to a topdecked Keldon Marauders that I couldn't block.

Solpugid
12-04-2007, 10:56 PM
Yeah, EE is awesome, but I think I'd rather have recurring witness/goyf/shriekmaw than recurring artifacts. That's why I went with the stronghold over academy ruins. But let me know how the artifact toolbox pans out, since it's something I haven't tested.

I tested mongrel in this deck for two game and yanked his ass. It quickly became apparent that he didn't play along with how I wanted to pilot this deck, and I really feel his slot is better used for other cards.

I think I'm going with you guys and pulling the dazes, but I'm pretty sad about it. This deck was starting to feel like black threshold early game, but with a recursion engine for late-game, and cutting daze sorta ruins that feel.

Darkblast, on the other hand, isn't going anywhere. I didn't appreciate how influential -1/-1 can be until I tested, but winning the goyf-goyf brawls and taking out random confidants, lackeys, en-kor creatures, etc. is just so friggin good.

I also don't agree with dropping wonder. Besides allowing goyfs to block angels, it allows gigapede to becaome a serious threat, and not one that falls flat to a mother of runes or late-game lackey.

19 lands has been fine in my testing though, especially since I often go for the loam package with intuition first. That means the next turn WILL have a land drop, and the first three are found quite easily with the cantrips.

Tao
12-05-2007, 01:58 AM
Darkheart Slivers were actually what I ran before the Bottle Gnomes. I switched to Gnomes admittedly on a whim, after getting cut off from green mana in one game, and being forced to blow up EE@2 in another, losing to a topdecked Keldon Marauders that I couldn't block.

Yes. And the next time you'll randomly lose against Krosan Grip on Gnomes. Darkheart seems better, except for Mogg Fanatic I know no card where the 1 toughness could be relevant. And even with Mogg, they usually ping you. Sliver is recurrable for 5, Gnomes for 6, that's a BIG difference.



Darkblast, on the other hand, isn't going anywhere. I didn't appreciate how influential -1/-1 can be until I tested, but winning the goyf-goyf brawls and taking out random confidants, lackeys, en-kor creatures, etc. is just so friggin good.

QFT. My petdeck GBw Survival play similar like this deck and Darkblast is one of the few cards that are always in the sideboard. Grips, Explosives, Plagues all go in and out but Darkblast is fixed.
It was already good when the prime targets were Lackey and Confidant, plus sometimes Mother, Soltari Priest and Lavamancer. But now that it can win Goyfwars (if that deck has a second target) and that it is awesome against Ceph. Fast it became one of my favorite cards.

BreathWeapon
12-05-2007, 03:21 PM
Yeah, EE is awesome, but I think I'd rather have recurring witness/goyf/shriekmaw than recurring artifacts. That's why I went with the stronghold over academy ruins. But let me know how the artifact toolbox pans out, since it's something I haven't tested.

Run both, the number of games that come down to recurring threats or Engineered Explosives in the aggro-control mirror is ridiculous. I tend to run the Volrath's Stronghold, Academy Ruins, Cephalid Coliseum and Cabal Pit package over their spell counter parts and much prefer the additional mana to the unnecessary threats.

You only need one Shriekmaw, if you use a set, you'll be kicking yourself over not being able to remove black creatures and artifacts. You should also be looking into even more unfair interactions, like the Spore Frog and Volrath's Stronghold lock.

Nihil Credo
12-05-2007, 03:57 PM
Run both, the number of games that come down to recurring threats or Engineered Explosives in the aggro-control mirror is ridiculous.

Truer words haven't been spoken often.


I tend to run the Volrath's Stronghold, Academy Ruins, Cephalid Coliseum and Cabal Pit package over their spell counter parts and much prefer the additional mana to the unnecessary threats.

Cabal Pit puzzles me. It seems it has a heavy drawback for a very minor removal ability. I forgive Cephalid Coliseum for his annoyance since he is an Ancestral Recall every turn, but Cabal Pit's effect doesn't seem in the same league at all.


You only need one Shriekmaw, if you use a set, you'll be kicking yourself over not being able to remove black creatures and artifacts.

I don't know about the meta you play in, but I don't see black and artifact creatures at every street corner. And thanks to Deeds and EEs, I'm not short in ways of dealing with them.


You should also be looking into even more unfair interactions, like the Spore Frog and Volrath's Stronghold lock.

This doesn't excite me at all. First of all, Frog/Stronghold is a soft lock for your opponent... but a hard lock for you, unless you've also estabilished a Coliseum/Loam combo at the same time. You need Genesis/Frog to do something.

Secondly, Frog is a card that does very little on its own - it hardly made the cut in Survival, where tutoring for it was much easier, but I'd be wary of putting it in this deck. Besides, if I were to cut a slot for a card that does next to nothing when hardcast, Wonder is first on that list.

Thirdly, a Fog-lock is sort of redundant when you can already estabilish Boardsweep-lock.

BreathWeapon
12-05-2007, 06:25 PM
Cabal Pit is a Darkblast that produces mana, as long as it ends a Goyf on Goyf stalemate and prevents another Goyf on Goyf stalemate from occurring, it's doing it's job regardless of whether or not you recur it turn after turn.

Dark Confidant is enough of a reason for me not to rely on Shriekmaw as my only source of spot removal, sometimes you're already committed to the board, so Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives are double edged, and sometimes mass removal isn't fast enough.

You want Shriekmaw, but you don't want a set of them. Diversifying your removal makes you more flexible, and in some cases makes you more resilient. You can play more than one Shriekmaw, but you still want your opponent to fear instant speed removal. It's the same reason you play Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deed, to cover all of your opponent's outs in case he has an answer to one but not both.

Spore Frog lock was just an example, there are a lot of applications between Life from the Loam, Volrath's Stronghold and Sacrifice/Evoke creatures worth exploring.

Edit: Gnomes > Sliver, you can recur Gnomes with both Volrath's Stronghold and/or Academy Ruins.

Goaswerfraiejen
12-10-2007, 08:07 PM
All right! Now that my take-home exams are all done, I can finally get my hand dirty with the deck once more.

First, I've made a few modifications. For reference, this is what the deck looks like for me right now:

Lands: 18
3 Tropical island
2 Underground sea
2 Bayou
3 Polluted delta
3 Windswept heath
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Volrath's stronghold
1 Cephalid Coliseum

Creatures: 20
4 Nimble mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Shriekmaw
3 Wild Mongrel
2 Psychatog
1 Eternal witness
1 Gigapede
1 Genesis
1 Wonder

Other spells: 22
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of will
4 Intuition
3 Pernicious deed
2 Life from the loam
1 Darkblast

SB:

4 Extirpate
4 Stifle
4 Duress
3 Crime/Punishment

-----


The major changes have been the turn to Shriekmaw for removal and the inclusion of Volrath's Stronghold over Wasteland. I did test out Darkheart Sliver, but more on that in a moment. Some results:

Volrath's Stronghold: Overall, probably more useful than Wasteland. I think it's worth keeping: it's a nice backup to Genesis, although not being able to draw a card while recurring is a little unfortunate, but being able to recur instantaneously (and draw with cantrips! Yay!). Still, backup is important.

Shriekmaw: Going up to three has panned out nicely, and I don't really miss Smother much. Losing instantaneity is a little less cool, but not much of a problem. Bringing Darkblast back is nice (especially for dominating combat), and it's nice not having to worry about weenies again.

Life from the Loam: Added one to see how it would go. I certainly like the increased consistency, but one worked fine as well.

Darkblast: Once more, Darkblast has become a good complement.

Darkheart Sliver: Not enough bang for the buck, in my opinion. Swinging for two was mediocre at best, and the life gain was only really relevant against burn. I think it falls under the "cool tricks" category. However, Spore Frog may be interesting as a possible solution to Ichorid ('course, there are other options). I'm not sure that another utility creature would do much at the moment, however.

Academy Ruins & Engineered Explosives: One thing I didn't like when I tested this (I tested them instead of Mongrel) was the fact that Ruins doesn't produce coloured mana, which I occasionally found problematic. I also had some trouble discarding cards when I wanted to. Has anyone else had these problems, or was it just me? In principle, I see no reason why this plan would be bad. From a personal standpoint, I prefer having the Mongrels and using Witness to recur Deeds, but I'm so biased that it isn't funny. :tongue:


Thanks for all the thoughts; hope to see more. I also hope that the next sets give us some sweet new toys to play with. :smile:

Goaswerfraiejen
12-11-2007, 02:32 PM
I just had an amusing thought: while I wasn't all that impressed with Darkheart Sliver, Briarhorn might well prove impressive. I'll be testing it and going back down to two Mongrels.

BreathWeapon
12-11-2007, 02:52 PM
Is there a reason to run Pernicious Deed and Ponder over Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top? I find If I don't have board dominance, I will have board dominance thanks to the draw engine and recurring threats. Intuition is so good at assembling the Balance/Top lock that it seems like a waste not to use Balance/Top in the MD or at least in the SB.

Solpugid
12-11-2007, 05:41 PM
Eh, in my testing running board sweepers is pretty awesome. Besides, deed trumps CB on the opposing side of the board.

@Goaswerfraiejen

Your lists are starting to look a lot like the ones I was testing before, but you're still holding on to those mongrels. Have you tested without them, and just disliked being less aggressive?

Goaswerfraiejen
12-12-2007, 12:44 AM
Is there a reason to run Pernicious Deed and Ponder over Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top? I find If I don't have board dominance, I will have board dominance thanks to the draw engine and recurring threats. Intuition is so good at assembling the Balance/Top lock that it seems like a waste not to use Balance/Top in the MD or at least in the SB.

It was discussed at some point, but I can't remember when/where. Basically, they're as follows:

1.) Counterbalance costs UU, which puts some strain on the manabase. Obviously, that's not the whole reason, since Deed and Tog put a strain on it as well (speaking of which, I'm considering going back to one Tog for three Mongrels, but whatever). It can be done, but reason two is the real clincher for me:

2.) Deed can come down at any point in the game, and it will act as a reset button allowing the deck to shift gears (which is the point, really). Counterbalance has to come down ASAP, and it won't affect the game state that comes before it. In my opinion (and bear in mind that I'm a nobody) the deck doesn't need a Counterbalance lock as much as it needs a reset button.






@Goaswerfraiejen

Your lists are starting to look a lot like the ones I was testing before, but you're still holding on to those mongrels. Have you tested without them, and just disliked being less aggressive?

Yeah, I tried the deck out without them a few times, including just recently when I tried Academy and EE instead. Part of the problem is that it doesn't suit my playstyle, and I feel uncomfortable without them. They're huge deterrants, dodge most black removal, and are easier to cast/more effective overall than Tog tends to be. Plus, without them, I don't feel comfortable with the number of discard outlets.

To be fair, however, I suspect that most of that is just me and in my head; I see no real reason why the deck wouldn't work well without them. I just don't like it, myself. :tongue:

Solpugid
12-12-2007, 11:27 AM
Don't get me wrong, I loved mongrels when I tried them. I just think that running other spells is more important. Mainly, I have a growing concern with the number of blue spells in the deck. 4 BS, 4 ponder, 4 intuition, and 4 FoW are givens, but I really don't like running less than, say, 18 or 19 spells to pitch. Mongrel seems to cut into those blue slots quite a bit. As terrible as it sounds, being cared disadvantage and all, I think I'll test careful study.

Goaswerfraiejen
12-12-2007, 11:31 AM
Don't get me wrong, I loved mongrels when I tried them. I just think that running other spells is more important. Mainly, I have a growing concern with the number of blue spells in the deck. 4 BS, 4 ponder, 4 intuition, and 4 FoW are givens, but I really don't like running less than, say, 18 or 19 spells to pitch. Mongrel seems to cut into those blue slots quite a bit. As terrible as it sounds, being cared disadvantage and all, I think I'll test careful study.

There are 18 at present with Psychatog. But sure, let us know how your testing goes.

Solpugid
12-12-2007, 09:23 PM
Yeah, but every game I pitch a tog or wonder I regret it. I'll do some testing with careful study right now and get right back to edit this post.

Goaswerfraiejen
12-12-2007, 09:32 PM
Yeah, but every game I pitch a tog or wonder I regret it. I'll do some testing with careful study right now and get right back to edit this post.

Hmm, forgot about Wonder. That makes it 19. You definitely seldom want to pitch Wonder, but I rarely really regret pitching Tog.

Solpugid
12-12-2007, 10:02 PM
Ok, I played quite a few games against my angel stompy deck (it's just what was on hand) and here's what I concluded about my list:

1. Shriekmaw pisses me off. On the one hand it's amazingly good when you get to five mana, or when you can start recurring it with genesis/stronghold, but on the other hand this deck's late game is already good. I think I'll go back to smother or edict as my removal, because I hate not being able to kill at instant speed, and I HATE not being able to kill razor golem. Yes, I realize golem hardly exists in this meta, but the same would go for confidant.

2. Careful study pisses me off. I was uber excited when I landed a 3/3 flying mongoose (with darkblast backup) off of double careful study in game 2. Next turn I draw a goyf, and I get even happier...and then it gets swords and I'm attacked by a golem, a serra avenger, and some other stuff I don't want to block. Why? Because my hand is shriekmaw, gigapede, deed, intuition. On my turn I draw another land with ponder, putting me to 4, and cast the deed. I figure, if I get land #5 I'll use shriekmaw to off the avenger and then double block the golem. But then I don't get a land...and then again next turn, and I realize I dumped 2 of them with careful study. Seriously, this deck does not like the card disadvantage.

3. I feel like this deck needs more early game protection, and I want that protection to do three things: pitch to FoW, counter combo players' attempts to go off, and block (and preferrably kill) some early creatures. So far all I can think of is spellstutter sprite or spiketail hatchling, and these would most likely take the place of the God-awful careful studies I disgraced my deck with.

4. Goyf is just busted. That's all, just busted.

Edit: can we call this deck Assassin BUG? Ok, nevermind.

Nihil Credo
12-13-2007, 09:03 PM
Dredgers in TarmoTog? Stinkweed Imp is a nice recurring blocker, OK, but Troll?

Anyway, from Bill Stark's helpful database:

Psychatog
Michael Redford
2007 Worlds New York, NY
Legacy

Main Deck:
1 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Psychatog
1 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Wonder

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Deep Analysis
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Ponder
4 Spell Snare

3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground River

Sideboard:
3 Echoing Truth
4 Engineered Explosives
2 Hail Storm
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Stifle

BreathWeapon
12-14-2007, 12:23 AM
I've seen Stinkweed used in Extended, I think it's to put a road block in front of Tarmogoyfs more than to grow Tarmogoyfs or Psychatog, it's in the Threads of Disloyalty slot a lot.

Goaswerfraiejen
12-14-2007, 06:43 PM
It's nice to see something similar getting played. I'm also interested in seeing those other decks that were classified as "Blue-Black-Green"...

I used to run Stinkweed, and he was definitely fun. But so much has happened since (especially Shriekmaw) that I'd hesitate to run it now, especially since its effect isn't immediate. Grave-Troll is a wowzer. I'd considered him in the past, but didn't think it would be effective enough, so I tried Gigapede instead (with stellar results). I wonder how Grave-Troll worked out with so few creatures. :confused:

@Solpugid: I kind of had some doubts about Careful Study. I'll cast around for some creatures with an early impact, and I'll guess we'll see what's around. Assassin BUG sounds pretty cool (yay Gigapede!) but I dunno how catchy it would be. On the other hand, TarmoTog is a little bland now that everything has the same name. :p

Solpugid
12-14-2007, 07:51 PM
Yeah, I doubt the name would catch on, but (in case you were wondering) BUG also refers to the colors of the deck, and an assassin bug is a real (and kickass) thing. Eh, nevermind, I don't even think I like the name myself.

I think I knew careful study wasn't going to be good, but I love testing cards that seem janky, just in case one turns out to be secret tech. Stinkweed imp, however, doesn't seem like it'll fit well. I'd like to think of this deck as Threshold with a superior control matchup (due to recursion), but unfortunately its combo matchup is less than stellar right now, with force of will the only protection against an out-of-nowhere or first turn attempt. That's why I think the extra slots should go toward combo protection as opposed to goyf protection.

BreathWeapon
12-15-2007, 02:47 AM
Wow, you guys aren't running Thought Seize? How are you just getting buy on only Force of Will vs anything? I thought that would have been an automatic inclusion, no pun intended.

Goaswerfraiejen
12-29-2007, 08:16 PM
First, a quick warning: I left Cephalid Coliseum out of my last list. It's there now. It's just too good not to run.


Wow, you guys aren't running Thought Seize? How are you just getting buy on only Force of Will vs anything? I thought that would have been an automatic inclusion, no pun intended.

Force of Will only answers what can't otherwise be answered; and largely, it's a foil against combo, which is very hard to deal with otherwise. You can let most threats resolve because you can blow most of them up; you just need to protect a Deed or an Intuition most of the time. FoW is an anecdote, basically.

Thoguhtseize is questionable at best. Grabbing a creature will only improve already strong matchups; Duress is far more indicated against combo, which is the weakness that needs to be shored up. Besides, the deck is expensive enough as it is. Also, the life loss is not insignificant; perhaps it's just my playstyle, but I tend to give away a lot of life points in order to set up the good old Intuition--->Win. You want games to drag out, and at that point life loss is a little less cool.


Whether or not blue is necessary is a good (and recurring) question, and one that Solpugid's attempted to address with a new deck, and that Pinder is wrestling with now. Personally, I think that blue is necessary to protect against combo; relying on just black to disrupt combo means you need as fast a clock as possible, and that's just not gonna happen with this deck when you're busy using your mana to disrupt instead. Force of Will is really your only protection against a Goblin Charbelcher--until you can ramp up some mana, anyway. It also complements Deed very well--I like to think of Deed as a counterspell that can counter things on the board. Regardless, I think that Stifle is necessary: we can deal with EtW easily enough, but Tendrils is a lot tougher. Likewise, Belcher itself tends to be more problematic, and Stifle will buy you the time you need.

One thing that's worth considering is the modified list I posted in Pinder's CaNG thread, which would cut Force and the cantrips that support it for slightly more stable mana, Top, and some open slots. Factoring in something like Glacial Chasm in the SB (on top of the rest)--or even MD, now there's a cool stall tactic--to help against combo might work, and it's a path worth exploring IMO.

e_hawk77
12-30-2007, 08:12 PM
i played this list and went 6-0-1 with it.

4 tarmogoyf
2 psychotog
1 eternal witnes
1 genesis
1 wonder
1 shriekmaw

3 force spike
4 counterspell
4 force of will

4 brainstorm
4 accumulated knowlegdge
3 intuition
1 deep analysis
1 life from the loam

2 pernious deed
1 crime/punishment
3 swords to plowshares

4 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
3 tropical island
3 underground sea
2 tundra
1 wasteland
1 cephalid coliseum
2 lonely sandbar

sideboard
4 duress
4 blue elemental blast
1 hydroblast
2 pithing needle
3 krosan grip
1 crime/punishment

the deck did very well (going 6-0-1), but the are some poor card choices. force spike wasn't very good. i think it will become duress. also wonder isn't needed. i think it will be come crime/punishment. Accumulated knowledge was amazing. cantriping into the is nuts. the object of the deck is to get to the long game so the card advantage then is what matters. i know alot of the lists on this post are faster than mine but i think that if you make it about the long game you will win more.

Solpugid
12-30-2007, 09:09 PM
Making a control deck that relies on the graveyard as much as your list scares me after game 1. At least Survival can be more aggressive. That's why my versions of the deck have always included mongoose, to speed it up. So interestingly, I think you win more games as an aggro-control deck than you would as a control deck. Congrats on the win though, can't really argue with success.

I don't know about force spike-->duress. That lowers your blue count to a dangerous level. Maybe ponder?

And the only reason (I think) you dislike wonder is because you don't run gigapede. Slap him in the deck and wonder becomes much better. And so does the whole deck.

007manguy
01-14-2008, 09:33 PM
so which list should one be playing?

Goaswerfraiejen
01-14-2008, 10:50 PM
so which list should one be playing?

Well, this is what I'm playing, and I love it. It's a tad harsh on the wallet, though. The sideboard is obviously entirely open, and there's a fair bit of room for customizing the main deck. Psychatog, for example, isn't all that great, but I don't really have much else to offer at the moment, and it's far from bad. You could opt to cut Force for disruption and cantrips for Sensei's Divining Top, and you could even cut Mongrels for more control or whatever. That said, I think that this is by far the best configuration, and the best equipped to deal with a changing metagame--pretty much any metagame, really. Of course, I'm biased. But whatever. Here it is:

Lands: 18
3 Tropical island
2 Underground sea
2 Bayou
3 Polluted delta
3 Windswept heath
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Volrath's stronghold
1 Cephalid Coliseum

Creatures: 20
4 Nimble mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Shriekmaw
3 Wild Mongrel
2 Psychatog
1 Eternal witness
1 Gigapede
1 Genesis
1 Wonder

Other spells: 22
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of will
4 Intuition
3 Pernicious deed
2 Life from the loam
1 Darkblast

SB:

4 Extirpate
4 Stifle
4 Duress
3 Crime/Punishment

Goaswerfraiejen
01-22-2008, 09:38 AM
I don't see much in Morningtide, but I was wondering about Offalsnout:

Offalsnout :2::b:
Uncommon
Creature - Elemental

Flash
When Offalsnout leaves play, remove target card in a graveyard from the game
Evoke :b:
2/2


It would be easy to cast and recur, making it pretty sweet graveyard hate--the one problem being, of course, that your recursion is easily hated out. It looks like it would go a long way to shoring up Ichorid, though: use it to remove an Ichorid or Dread Return or something, and by going to the graveyard it removes Bridge from Below as well. What do you guys think? Is it worth including, and if so, where? My one qualm about replacing Extirpate's slot is that Extirpate does more against Life from the Loam and Wasteland recursion; it could always go to a 3-1 split, but would it be worth it as just an Intuition target?

slyfer
01-27-2008, 07:05 AM
How can you rely so much on shriekmaw, considering it doens't kill confidant, shade, spectral linx (the new tech of pikula BWg or BW against the field right now), and also another card which is on the rising: tombstalker.
I know theretically is nice to have a removal which is a win condition later when you set up the recursion, but also I am afraid of lack of counters (only 4 force and minimum bluecard quantity).

I think it's better to move on recurring more witnesses -> smother for example.

It's the same of recurring shriekmaw (as a win condition you simply recurs whatever, like tarmagoyf for example), but recurring witness more grabs you *everything* non only creatures, and smother addresses far more threats than shriekmaw (imho)

On the control list above, I like it , but I would stay 3c, splashing white only for sword is risky consider you have deed (takes away everthing in the control playstyle, you just drop land establish mana base and you are ok) and I would play smother.
I would play 3 smother 3 deed 0 swords

Ponder are autoincluded in any deck with 18 lands imho....
so you have like configuration: ponder brainstorm intuition (for recursion deck) , ponder brainstorm predict (threshold).
Braistorm ak intuition is very good but I would play it on a 22 land minimum deck

Goaswerfraiejen
01-27-2008, 09:39 AM
How can you rely so much on shriekmaw, considering it doens't kill confidant, shade, spectral linx (the new tech of pikula BWg or BW against the field right now), and also another card which is on the rising: tombstalker.



Simple. The answer here is twofold:

1.) You have Darkblast if you really need to get rid of Confidant or Lynx.
2.) You can safely ignore Confidant and Lynx most of the time. Confidant will lose the game for your opponent--all you have to do is push through 10-12ish damage, and as long as you can make the game drag on, Confidant will kill your opponent--especially if they're foolish enough to run fetches and Thoughtseize.

As far as Tombstalker is concerned, it's only a minor annoyance. Make your guys fly, and it's forced onto the defensive. Hell, even when your guys don't fly, it'll usually have to stay back as a blocker--Gigapede is that scary. :wink: Since you'll have trouble using Deed to kill Tombstalker, just let your board position do it: force it into bad blocks, and use Darkblast to make that easier. Of the cards listed above, Tombstalker is really the only one worth a second thought--but something like Smother won't kill it anyway. The idea behind replacing Smother with Shriekmaw was basically that they're functionally identical in this metagame, except that Shriekmaw is harder to counter with Counterbalance, and it's an evasive fattie. Whatever can't be dealt with by removal just has to crumble before a better board position. That's the idea, anyway. :tongue:



I know theretically is nice to have a removal which is a win condition later when you set up the recursion, but also I am afraid of lack of counters (only 4 force and minimum bluecard quantity).


Force is really a last resort, and complements Stifle against combo more than anything. Deed is supposed to do the work that counterspells can't: counter cards that make it to the board. The advantage is that you don't need it in your hand, and you can deal with multiple issues. Force should be protecting Deed more than anything, unless something looks like it's too urgent to wait (Solitary Confinement, maybe). You could easily replace Force with disruption, though (either Cabal Therapy, Duress, or a combination of the two; Thoughtseize is a liability, and you don't need to grab creatures. You just want to improve your combo matchup).



It's the same of recurring shriekmaw (as a win condition you simply recurs whatever, like tarmagoyf for example), but recurring witness more grabs you *everything* non only creatures, and smother addresses far more threats than shriekmaw (imho)


The only creatures that Shriekmaw can't address that Smother can are black; that means stuff like Dark Confidant, Withered Wretch, Stinkweed Imp, and Spectral Lynx.

Shriekmaw, on the other hand, can deal with anything whose converted mana cost is over 3, which in Legacy means stuff like Goblin Ringleader, Siege-Gang Commander, Fledling Dragon, Exalted Angel, Arc-Slogger, Gathan Raiders, Ssulfur Elemental, Rakdos Pit Dragon, Sower of Temptation, Shoreline Ranger, and various Reanimator targets.

Oh, and Smother kills man-lands, which is pretty relevant. The thing is--for me, anyway--that Smother only fries small fish, and those are fish that will seldom be attacking into an army of huge flying things. Two damage is easy to take, even in multiples; four and above, however, gets old fast. You can absolutely go to one Shriekmaw and no Darkblast in order to run three Smothers--it works quite well. Personally, I think that triple-Shriekmaw better complements the deck's strengths and weaknesses, and it definitely suits my own metagame more. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with cutting a couple.


One really cool thing about this deck is that you can switch around a number of cards to suit your playstyle, and the deck doesn't really get any worse--it doesn't really get any better either, but whatever. The only thing I would suggest, however, is cutting Psychatogs before cutting Mongrels--seems odd on paper, I know, but the lower (and simpler) casting cost (and the ability to change colours, to a lesser extent) is actually quite relevant. But you can really customize it to suit your playstyle, which is awesome.

Thanks for the input, by the way. Hope you enjoy playing the deck. :smile:

georgjorge
01-28-2008, 09:26 AM
I'm currently giving the deck a try, and its been treating me well so far. The early beats coupled with the brokenness of Intuition when going for the long game are a good fit. I've even incorporated the Intuition engine in the sideboard of another UG deck of mine (playing Mongrels, Standstill, and Aether Vial, which happens to be good with Genesis).

Just two things...

Isn't there really another discard engine than Gigapede ? Five mana is a lot, as for that mana I'd rather return (with Genesis) + cast a 5/6 Goyf, so it really only seems to be good for discarding that Wonder or Genesis you got from Intuition. The other card that does that is Undead Gladiator, which costs mana but gets you cards, and is not useless in your opening hand. But really, nothing better ?

I don't know about the Goblins matchup, but just maybe putting in a single Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale would be good. I've tried it in other decks, and shuts down their deck pretty hard. Since you're already running Loam and Intuition, it could fit in, as I think Wonder + Loam + Tabernacle might be a better pile than Wonder + Darkblast + Genesis.

But again, thanks for the effort !

Maveric78f
01-28-2008, 09:42 AM
You have brainstorm + dredge. Apart from that and discard outlets such as mongrel, I really don't see.

Goaswerfraiejen
01-28-2008, 10:49 AM
Just two things...

Isn't there really another discard engine than Gigapede ? Five mana is a lot, as for that mana I'd rather return (with Genesis) + cast a 5/6 Goyf, so it really only seems to be good for discarding that Wonder or Genesis you got from Intuition. The other card that does that is Undead Gladiator, which costs mana but gets you cards, and is not useless in your opening hand. But really, nothing better ?




I run Wild Mongrel (as do you) and Psychatog; that's more than enough discard power for me. In fact, this is one big part of the reason why I tell people not to cut Mongrel (the others being that he's an amazing defender, amazing attacker, and dodges most black removal), or to cut Psychatog before Mongrel (Mongrel being easier on the mana and recursion).

You could definitely run Undead Gladiator, but Gigapede will do more overall simply because he's untargetable and has massive power; plus, you don't need to pay mana for it. I personally wouldn't cut even Psychatog for Undead Gladiator, but it's certainly a feasible option if you want to run it.

Gigapede actually wins me more games than any of my other win conditions; it's weird, I know, but a flying, untargetable, and recurring 6/1 is really, really, really hard for any deck out there to deal with. Gigapede is a huge part of your strategy against Landstill and 43 Lands; in fact, he's basically what makes these good matchups. A flying, recurring 3/1 just isn't as impressive.

Besides, you can recur Gigapede and recur and play a Tarmogoyf with Genesis at the same time, since recurring Gigapede costs zero mana (unlike the Gladiator).



I don't know about the Goblins matchup, but just maybe putting in a single Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale would be good. I've tried it in other decks, and shuts down their deck pretty hard. Since you're already running Loam and Intuition, it could fit in, as I think Wonder + Loam + Tabernacle might be a better pile than Wonder + Darkblast + Genesis.


I've toyed with the idea against Goblins as well; I've been exploring other options simply because the deck is expensive enough (money-wise) as it is, but Tabernacle is a great option. You could also use Glacial Chasm (which is likewise good against many decks) if you can't afford a Tabernacle; depending on what you use, however, your strategy is going to change.

The sideboard is absolutely completely open, and it's going to depend on your metagame. The deck's only really dififcult matchups are against non-EtW storm combo (simply because you either need an answer, or you die), so I dedicate a chunk of my sideboard to that (Duress, Stifle). Extirpate is pretty important, in my opinion, since it shuts down 43 Lands (making it a pushover matchup) and other Loam-based decks (which have enough recursion to cause problems, like a stalemate), Jotun Grunt (ewwww!), and Burn, which has a nasty habit of squeaking wins in. Plus, it's an all-around great card, and uncounterable. :wink: Other than Extirpate, though, the sideboard is basically open to your metagame. I like Crime/Punishment because it helps to get around Pithing Needle and is a cheap answer to EtW, but even in my SB there's no reason not to run a single Tabernacle.


Glad you like the deck. :smile:

slyfer
01-28-2008, 06:18 PM
If one wanted to play more controllish build, don't you think that intuition for gigapede - genesis - wonder doesn't need discard effect? Because genesis goes to grave in any case. So in any case with this pile you have the 6/1 flyer.

As regards shriekmaw vs smother, you didn't mention a threat that smother gets : phyrexian dreadnaught. :rolleyes: He's fast, 2 mana he's out, 2 turns you die, you have no time for deed, and can go into another stifle (they play 4 or 5 stifles). Then I still prefer an instant removal, because I my turn I want to make my bombs, or drop my things.
It's very slow to play few lands, sorcery speed removal (shriekmaw, deed, loam, creature), it's stronger to have the ability to play more times eot, but maybe I'm biased as control player :tongue:
Shriekmaw is dead vs affinity, smother takes manlands, ravager, and above all disciple that wins alone vs deed, the time you deed they have a couple of them vialed in and that's it

In my metagame I think there are lot of wasteland and stifle, so I'm hesitant to build a low land (18) with fetchs, tech lands AND big spell like >3cc to fully operate. If you dont' see loam, it's hard time imho. Many decks pack mana hate (goblins wasteland port, pikula wasteland sinkhole, other decks wasteland stifle). Threshold is different because he runs with cc2 at maximum, has daze and it has more counterspell effect to hold on.
So he can really use ponder fetching business, because he controls with daze/force, easy 1cc or 2cc drop... I'm afraid (in a deck with 18 lands AND cc3 spell) to use braistorm and ponder just to find land, and not for finding goodies.

I think that the deck has a very strong late game and plan (deed all, setting up gigapede and/or shirekmaw, etc...), so I think there is the possibility to build up a more controllish list (and that's the list I have at the moment and will bring to next 40 people tournament), that aims to control a bit more, with a bit more lands, reset the board, and from there you should more consistently have the mana to setting up every king of good recursion.

This recursion is extremely resilient to extirpate, that is good.
If they side leyline, we have the big answer trygon predator or krosan grip.

To beat burn, goblin and I think also dragon stompy I go for a 4 chill in side.

EDIT 1/30: i'm sorry but i found shriekmaw garbage, I dunno if i'm unlucky on MWS but I always find confidant and shades, and affinity and such... UGb threshold is say 90% for them. They pack wasteland + stifle (as I thought it's devastating), i lost to say 5/6 attacks of confidant I couldn't handle. The answer is not the 1x darkblast, it's fanta-magic: intuition get dazed/forced, you drop dudes they snare, they stifle/wasteland all the f*****g day, I'm very disappointed.
I'm ok with 1x wasteland 1x volrath stronghold as "tech lands".

The reason "they lose to confidant by themselves" is 100% FALSE, my friend.
1) they beat
2) they play sensei top
3) their curve is about 1,5cc, and 30% of the deck is cc0 (lands), that makes high percentage of taking 1 damage per turn
4) pratical play demonstrate confidant is viable also in stacker (vintage, with many cards high cc like triskelion, titan, wires, smokestack), see italians results I can prove in out website (it's all written down)

georgjorge
02-07-2008, 03:08 PM
So, I think the deck has potential to be a Deck To Beat. I've tried other Aggro-Control decks before, and while, say, UGb Thresh has some advantages over that, the fact remains that most of them die to Midgame and Control decks like Landstill or those Train Wreck-type decks that seem to be popping up in force right now (you know, those with Deed, Vindicate and maybe Putrefy, along with black discard...bad times for small creatures). But this deck only needs to resolve a single Intuition to keep playing the long game...

Having said that, I've tinkered around with the build a bit.

1. I still think Gigapede AND Genesis isn't needed - but I now think that it's Genesis that got to go, not Gigapede. Both provide continous beats in the late game, and both are somewhat expensive to use (and have good synergy with Loam). But Gigapede discards Wonder if you don't have Mongrel out, which is important to me.

2. I've cut a Mongrel (never want to see two, and with Gigapede, the discard isn't that needed), even though you mentioned many many times that Atog should be cut before Mongrel. This because Atog is a finisher, and Mongrel is "just" a cheap beater, and with the addition in point three, the former is more needed. Plus, I am desperate for Force fodder.

3. Plus two Vinelasher Kudzu. I'm still out on those, but usually they are 3/3 the turn after they come down which is good enough for me (hmm...maybe play Rotting Giant), and if the game drags on, or if you got Loam going, they get up to 5/5 or 7/7.

4. The Deeds are in the sideboard. They are powerful, but the complete dis-synergy with the deck makes them my favorite Mongrel fodder. If the opponent plays their creatures out, you now have the choice of stopping attacking, or killing your own creatures with Deed. This is bad, so Smother it is. Even if I were worried about artifacts, which Smother can't kill, I'd probably still play Putrefy instead of them, not Deed...

5. I'm trying a 2/2 split of Mental Notes and Ponder, mainly for the Mongeese, but there are also four or five cards in your deck which you have effectively "drawn" if they're in the grave. Plus, being an instant allows you to pass the first turn without cracking a fetch, so you don't get Wasted and can drop a creature. Wasteland IS a problem with this deck...


A question: Glacial Chasm in the side seems techy, but does it really solve anything ? Against combo, they can kill you with non-damage life loss via Tendrils, and against Burn, most of their damage is instant speed and thus castable in your upkeep after you've sacced Chasm. It's great against Belcher, but otherwise...?

So, let's make it a Deck To Beat :wink: !

Goaswerfraiejen
02-11-2008, 08:16 PM
Just a quick update; I'll be making a much more detailed post in the near future, one specifically addressing both posts above. Just a note, though: I'm not siding Chasm at all, actually. It's Tabernacle, and it's underwhelming--even against Goblins, it's not so cool. The main problem is that this deck needs its mana and its creatures, and wasting mana to keep a beater or two alive isn't usually all that hot.

At the moment, however, I am working on an updated list with a much more resilient manabase, and the possibility of slightly increased speed. Depending on where I settle preliminarily, Glacial Chasm may even become a viable option. I've been re-tooling the deck, and although it's slightly different, it's still much the same--only better, I hope.

Goaswerfraiejen
02-19-2008, 04:16 PM
All right, it's high time I came back to this thread. The CANGD contest teamed up with real life for a while to swallow my attention, but I now have a bit more time to devote here, so I went back to the drawing board in an effort to fix manabase issues. I figure that the deck can easily swallow having only a decent combo matchup (as opposed to a stellar matchup, obviosuly) so long as it does very well against everything else. It is with this goal in mind that I've been tinkering with the manabse: I want to make it more immune to hate, such that mana-denial need not be much of a worry.

In the course of my reflections, I came upon one particular problem that needed to be rectified: while the deck can run on three mana in a pinch, it really needs the possibility of having four basic lands in play, so that it can drop a fifth at any time and use it to cast something gamebreaking. Too often, as it is, you find yourself with three basic lands in play but no way to play Gigapede or Genesis, or to cast Deed/Intuition and use reap their rewards immediately. To that end, I've increased the number of basic lands to five. In order to ensure the ability to get these lands out when it matters, I stole from a variant (I think it was Solpugid's River Rock, actually) and decided to run Veteran Explorer.

I must say that, overall, I'm very impressed with the changes. The explorers really allow you not to have to worry about fetching non-basics, and they power some truly broken plays. They also have great synergy with Deed and Genesis/Stronghold--too bad there aren't more basic lands in the deck. Sometimes, giving your opponent lands can be problematic--usually, however, you can do more with those lands than your opponent can. A number of decks in Legacy also run very few basic lands, so it's really not nearly as bad a drawback as you might imagine. You just have to watch out for Faerie Stompy--you want them to keep their mana problems, and VE doesn't kill their Cities of Traitors, so you need to be careful with them in that matchup. Otherwise, I've really got nothing but praise for the little 1/1 dorks.

Sakura-Tribe Elder could also be an option, but it costs two mana and nets just one land that comes in tapped. Ultimately, I think that giving my opponent two lands is a fair tradeoff, if you consider that TarmoTog can do so much more with those lands; and, as a one-drop, it's pretty damned useful. Hell, it drastically improves the Stax matchup, and that's pretty impressive if you consider how abysmal it was before. :tongue:


So, what does my deck look like at the moment? Here it is:


Lands: 18
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
3 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum

Creatures: 21
4 Nimble mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wild Mongrel
3 Veteran Explorer
2 Shriekmaw
1 Psychatog
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gigapede
1 Genesis
1 Wonder

Other spells: 21
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam
1 Damnation // Open slot

SB:

4 Extirpate
4 Stifle
3 Duress
3 Crime/Punishment
1 Wasteland // Open slot

Note that Iíve let go of Volrathís Stronghold for the moment in order to squeeze in one more basic swamp. This is partly because I donít use Stronghold often, and partly because Iíve got a Damnation in there that could use the extra basic mana. Besides, more basic lands means a stronger manabase.

The deck's lost none of its punch, and has--I think--increased in consistency with the now-stronger manabase. The most pressing question for me, at the moment, is the proper balance of removal: 3 Deeds is a given, but how should the rest be distributed? Shriekmaw is amazing and deserves at least one slot; personally, I feel that you want to draw into it, so 2 slots seems reasonable. But what about the rest? Damnation is currently sitting in the Darkblast slot as a complement to Deed (Darkblast really wasn't doing much at all), and it's certainly good, but... there are so many options; which is best? Hell, we could even go with Pongify (especially with Veteran Eplorer), but that probably wouldn't accomplish much. So, what's the ideal split? I AM thinking of going back to the 1-Shriekmaw/2-Smother/1-extra removal slot plan, but I want some input on it (and the current removal configuration) first.

Another question that could be asked if Sensei's Divining Top could make it in as the engine, and then some cantrips could turn into Daze or something similar. My suspicion is that it won't work so well in this shell (although it could easily work well with the concept), but it's on my list of stuff to test all the same.


If there are any questions, I'm more than happy to take a stab at them. Now for the questions that were asked earlier:





If one wanted to play more controllish build, don't you think that intuition for gigapede - genesis - wonder doesn't need discard effect? Because genesis goes to grave in any case. So in any case with this pile you have the 6/1 flyer.

Sure, it's been established that the deck can work without Mongrels. I don't think that it's ideal, and I think that the trade winds up being uneven, but it's feasible. Unless you plan on facing a LOT of combo, however, I wouldn't really advise it; the ability to discard immediately is quite sweet, dodging colour-based removal is snazzy, and itís actually a significant beater in its own right, not to mention a formidable blocker (i.e., as a deterrent, mostly). If the PM you just sent me is any indication, however, youíre not liking their absence too much either, eh?


As regards shriekmaw vs smother, you didn't mention a threat that smother gets : phyrexian dreadnaught. :rolleyes: He's fast, 2 mana he's out, 2 turns you die, you have no time for deed, and can go into another stifle (they play 4 or 5 stifles). Then I still prefer an instant removal, because I my turn I want to make my bombs, or drop my things.
It's very slow to play few lands, sorcery speed removal (shriekmaw, deed, loam, creature), it's stronger to have the ability to play more times eot, but maybe I'm biased as control player :tongue:

True; Dreadnought isn't all that common, though, and the deck has a number of ways of dealing with him (Force of Will, which disrupts the combo early on, Deed, which can be assembled before the Dreadnought kills you if you draw it, and, post-Board, Crime/Punishment; now, there's Damnation, and Veteran Explorer helps to get around him). Honestly, Stifle and Trickbind are more worrisome for me when facing Dreadnought decks, because they neuter Fetchlands, Deed, Shriekmaw, and Veteran Explorer. I wouldn't say that it's a particularly difficult matchup overall, just tricky and very much determined in the opening turns. If you hit three mana before seeing a Dreadnought, you will probably assume control and win. If Dreadnought comes down turn one, it's going to suck.

What this (and your comments quoted below) bring up, however, is the question of the balance of removal: what cards should be run as removal, and how many of each? Deed is a must, and at least one Shriekmaw is important; so what are the other options? Thereís Smother, which is excellent and perhaps more useful now than it was before, due to Countryside Crusher coming into play. Thereís Snuff Out, which I tried for a while recently, but wasnít too impressed with (it has the same limitations as Shriekmaw, and is harder to recuróalthough casting it for free is quite nice). Darkblast doesnít do much. Itís a tough choice, and it would be an immense help if you guys could test different combinations of removal.



Shriekmaw is dead vs affinity, smother takes manlands, ravager, and above all disciple that wins alone vs deed, the time you deed they have a couple of them vialed in and that's it.

Conceded on all points although, to be fair, TarmoTog has an overwhelmingly favourable Affinity matchup (and Affinity doesnít see all that much play nowadays anyway). Affinity's only hope for winning this matchup rests on Disciple of the Vault. I can't say that I'm particularly afraid of the matchup; early Deeds determine game 1, Darkblast used to take care of Disciple, but now Damnation unclogs everything, Force of Will should hit Disciple, and after sideboarding you gain Crime/Punishment and Wasteland to wreak further havoc (especially on the manabse--that's your primary target), and your pick of Duress, Stifle, or Extirpate (personally, I prefer Extirpate). This matchup is a cakewalk, since the only thing you have to worry about it Disciple. You can definitely get caught with your pants down, but it shouldnít happen too often.



In my metagame I think there are lot of wasteland and stifle, so I'm hesitant to build a low land (18) with fetchs, tech lands AND big spell like >3cc to fully operate. If you dont' see loam, it's hard time imho. Many decks pack mana hate (goblins wasteland port, pikula wasteland sinkhole, other decks wasteland stifle). Threshold is different because he runs with cc2 at maximum, has daze and it has more counterspell effect to hold on.
So he can really use ponder fetching business, because he controls with daze/force, easy 1cc or 2cc drop... I'm afraid (in a deck with 18 lands AND cc3 spell) to use braistorm and ponder just to find land, and not for finding goodies.

Wasteland and Stifle are problematic, but much less so now that we have Veteran Explorer and two extra basics. Try it out. Also, any time you see recurring mana denial as a theme, bring in Extirpate to get rid of it in subsequent games.

The nice thing about the deck is that it can easily run on just three lands for the first half of the game. It has very few spells costing more than 3 (9, to be precise, only two of which need to be hardcast--Gigapede and Damnation), but those spells give it a very strong late-game dominance. Obviously, it runs at its best with 5-7 lands in play; if you have 3, however, you're in great shape.





If they side leyline, we have the big answer trygon predator or krosan grip.

I like the Predator, myself, but Leyline is seldom much more than a nuisance. Tarmogoyf doesn't need a graveyard, and neither do the Mongrels. Just hardcast Genesis and Wonder, and they're good threats on their own. It's easy enough waiting for a Deed to clear the board, or even just siding out all the graveyard-based cards for a good chunk of your sideboard. Feel free to run Grip/Predator, of course--I've just tailored my own sideboard to deal with combo more easily.

Youíre right, though: these are great colours for Leyline hate.



EDIT 1/30: i'm sorry but i found shriekmaw garbage, I dunno if i'm unlucky on MWS but I always find confidant and shades, and affinity and such... UGb threshold is say 90% for them. They pack wasteland + stifle (as I thought it's devastating), i lost to say 5/6 attacks of confidant I couldn't handle. The answer is not the 1x darkblast, it's fanta-magic: intuition get dazed/forced, you drop dudes they snare, they stifle/wasteland all the f*****g day, I'm very disappointed.

Confidant should be killing your opponent, not you. Are you having trouble keeping a small wall (in the old list, generally a Mongoose) back to block? Most of the time, your opponent won't want to sacrifice the Confidant, and if you keep it alive long enough, it will deal the extra damage you need to kill your opponent. If they cast two, keep both in play for as long as you can afford to.

I've really never had the problems that you're having, although if weíre running different lists, that might account for it. Occasionally, something black sneaks past for the win, but I almost always win 2/3 games.

Affinity should be a cakewalk; I don't know why you've been having problems. Do you side Crime/Punishment at all? Your primary line of attack, against Affinity, is the manabase; cripple them, and theyíll have a hard time getting back up. Destroying land drops basically buys you turns against Affinity, and you can just fly in for the win. As I said above, Disciple is the only card you need to be careful of--and remember that you can activate Deed in response to Disciple, thus pre-emptively wiping the board (or his lands, whichever).

Similarly, Threshold--even UGB--should be a cakewalk. Occasionally you'll come across a mana-denial plan that's tough to handle, but you can run the deck on three mana. You just have to bait the counters and pick your battles carefully. Mana-denial is also much less effective now, with the Veteran Explorers and extra basic lands. Also, be aware that Mongoose will almost always make it to the table; your opponent will seldom bother countering it, and thatís especially useful against UGB, which wastes slots on 4 Confidants that theyíre too afraid to allow to attack into one of your small walls. Mongrel will often also be allowed to resolve, so make the best of it and its colour-changing ability.




The reason "they lose to confidant by themselves" is 100% FALSE, my friend.
1) they beat
2) they play sensei top
3) their curve is about 1,5cc, and 30% of the deck is cc0 (lands), that makes high percentage of taking 1 damage per turn

I'm sorry, but I've played hundreds of games with this deck (literally), and tested extensively against Conidant-based decks, especially UGB Threshold: Confidant is a liability more often than he is a boon. To address your points directly:

1.) Confidant almost never swings at you so long as you have an untapped weenie of some kind--maybe that's why you're losing (just idle speculation; I havenít a clue how you play, and youíre probably a better player than I am). You don't need to go all-out; you just need to hit for 12 or so and let Confidant and fetchlands do the rest. Force your opponent to play a long game, and those Confidants will be the determining factor. Accordingly, donít worry about playing it safe and hanging back on defenseóyou can always fly in for the win later.

2.) Top has to get played before it can have an effect, and even then, you're often looking at 1 damage from hitting the Top itself (as you acknowledge). The Top becomes relevant in the late-game, but Confidant is usually played before the Top is. That's your window of opportunity, so to speak; that damage, added to a steady flow of one damage and fetchland damage will put a huge strain on your opponentís life total, especially when heís staring at flying fatties.

3.) 1-5 cc is a big curve... I'm not sure what youíre trying to say. Most of the deck is 1-2 cc, with a few 5cc cards (FoW), which is what I think you meant. One damage a turn is significant, especially when you have more creatures, can recur your threats, and are taking less damage than they are each turn. Also consider that fetchlands will account for a few points of damage in the course of a regular game (and thin the lands), and that FoW will do the same: that adds up. If they also run Thoughtseize, they're screwed; if they don't, then the deck is better balanced and stands a better chance. Still, my advice to you is to capitalize on the Confidant damage by forcing the late game.

Now, Iím not saying that Confidant alone will lose them those games; you have to keep up the pressure, but that shouldnít be difficult. Confidant increases TarmoTogís inevitability, and thatís what you have to capitalize on.

Keep a small, dorky blocker (like Veteran Explorer) back to deter Confidant, and swing with beef. Donít be afraid to hang back on the defensive; once you get flying, you can swing with impunity. Your opponent simply doesn't have enough removal/counterspells to deal with all your threats, especially if they recur, and you have your own tools for dealing with his. Also consider that four of your opponent's creatures are Confidants, and he'll almost never want two out at the same time; that means that you usually only have to deal with one attacking creature at a time, two at worst.

If you ever want to play the matchup out with me on MWS, by the way, feel free to let me know, and weíll arrange it. Iím not kidding when I say that I have a LOT of experience with this deck, and experience adds quite a bit, even if you arenít a phenomenal player.




4) pratical play demonstrate confidant is viable also in stacker (vintage, with many cards high cc like triskelion, titan, wires, smokestack), see italians results I can prove in out website (it's all written down)

I don't understand what you're trying to say; that Confidant gets played in Vintage Stax? Vintage is a vastly different (and faster) game, and Stax has a number of ways to get rid of Confidants that go sour. Besides, Stax is a bad matchup for this deck, so I'm not sure what your point is. Donít get me wrong: Confidant is a great card, but it is best used to keep up an early assault. In the late game, Confidant costs you games, and TarmoTog takes Confidant-based decks to the late game with ease.




So, I think the deck has potential to be a Deck To Beat. I've tried other Aggro-Control decks before, and while, say, UGb Thresh has some advantages over that, the fact remains that most of them die to Midgame and Control decks like Landstill or those Train Wreck-type decks that seem to be popping up in force right now (you know, those with Deed, Vindicate and maybe Putrefy, along with black discard...bad times for small creatures). But this deck only needs to resolve a single Intuition to keep playing the long game...

Thanks for the encouragement. :smile:



Having said that, I've tinkered around with the build a bit.

1. I still think Gigapede AND Genesis isn't needed - but I now think that it's Genesis that got to go, not Gigapede. Both provide continous beats in the late game, and both are somewhat expensive to use (and have good synergy with Loam). But Gigapede discards Wonder if you don't have Mongrel out, which is important to me.

To be honest, that surprised me. I think that Genesis is amazing because it allows you to rebuild an army fairly quickly and cheaply, increases card advantage (highly relevant when you want to swing for the win with Mongrel or Psychatog), gives you massive redundancy, and, in rare situations, can be hardcast as a beatstick. If anything, Iíd have thought that Volrathís Strongholdís role would come into question in relation to Genesis. Iím not entirely sold on the Stronghold any more, since it mostly just a contingency plan in case Genesis is compromised--and I miss Wasteland.

Genesis is a big part of your inevitability, of what makes Deed such a great reset button for the deck, and itís a huge part of why the deck has such good matchups against Threshold and Landstill. I really donít think that he can be cut without pushing the deck down another--IMO inferior--path.


2. I've cut a Mongrel (never want to see two, and with Gigapede, the discard isn't that needed), even though you mentioned many many times that Atog should be cut before Mongrel. This because Atog is a finisher, and Mongrel is "just" a cheap beater, and with the addition in point three, the former is more needed. Plus, I am desperate for Force fodder.

Fair enough, although Iíd suggest that the deck has enough finishers as it is, and that a cheap, easily-cast early beater and deterrant is more important than an extra Tog. But hey, you still have 2, so whatever. :tongue:


3. Plus two Vinelasher Kudzu. I'm still out on those, but usually they are 3/3 the turn after they come down which is good enough for me (hmm...maybe play Rotting Giant), and if the game drags on, or if you got Loam going, they get up to 5/5 or 7/7.

Whoa... let me know how those treat you. I wouldnít have thought the deck capable of supporting them adequately.


4. The Deeds are in the sideboard. They are powerful, but the complete dis-synergy with the deck makes them my favorite Mongrel fodder. If the opponent plays their creatures out, you now have the choice of stopping attacking, or killing your own creatures with Deed. This is bad, so Smother it is. Even if I were worried about artifacts, which Smother can't kill, I'd probably still play Putrefy instead of them, not Deed...

Out of all that you said, this is really my only serious bone of contention: Deed is the all-star here, and really makes the deck work by allowing you to shift gears at any point in the game. I never discard Deed to Mongrelóexcept in the rarest of rare circumstances--because blowing everything up is what gives you the advantage. You blow it up, recur threats with Genesis (or Stronghold), and win. If you arenít running Genesis any longer, then thatís probably why youíre not liking Deed; I can tell you, however, that Deeding into flying Mongoose recursion is absolutely sickening for your opponent.



5. I'm trying a 2/2 split of Mental Notes and Ponder, mainly for the Mongeese, but there are also four or five cards in your deck which you have effectively "drawn" if they're in the grave. Plus, being an instant allows you to pass the first turn without cracking a fetch, so you don't get Wasted and can drop a creature.

Let us know how 2 Mental Notes work out. I didnít like four, and Ponderís re-shuffling is working out brilliantly for me.



Wasteland IS a problem with this deck...


Not really. Recurring Wastelands are the problem. :tongue: The deck can run on three mana if it has to, although 5-7 is whatís best. I think that my new approach to the manabase (if it can be called that) really strengthens it and makes it much easier to maintain a 5-land board, but Time may say otherwise.


A question: Glacial Chasm in the side seems techy, but does it really solve anything ? Against combo, they can kill you with non-damage life loss via Tendrils, and against Burn, most of their damage is instant speed and thus castable in your upkeep after you've sacced Chasm. It's great against Belcher, but otherwise...?

Thereís no Chasm in the board. I threw it out as a bad sideboarding option against Goblins, thatís all. :tongue:

Solpugid
02-19-2008, 06:54 PM
Wow, what a post! I'll admit, I didn't quite make it through that beast. However, I have a few things to say in response.

1) I never played veteran explorers in my deck, and I'm unsure who rightfully deserves credit for that idea.

2) Was darkblast really not pulling its weight? That surprises me mostly because of how common goyf vs. goyf battles are. It also kills lackey, confidant (which IS a threat, IMHO), and any 2-toughness creatures (if you cast it twice in a turn). I found it invaluable, and often included it in later intuition piles.

3) With veteran explorers in the deck, I now believe you have no excuse for not running at least one cabal therapy. The card improves combo and control matchups a lot, and (perhaps more importantly, since you are mostly ignoring combo game 1) provides a sac outlet for explorers. Please try it in place of some cards (maybe a mongrel or two, as a start).

4) I'm beginning to lose my interest in stronghold too. If your opponent can remove genesis, often times they can remove what you want to recur with genesis too, which then invalidates stronghold as an alternate engine. Let me know how your testing without it goes.

georgjorge
02-21-2008, 10:58 AM
Veteran Explorers ? I'm surprised...

I think we are trying to push the deck into different directions (although the core of the deck - cantrips, Intuition, creature base is largely the same): I see it as an aggro deck which basically tries to beat down early, but has the amazing ability to either fly over for the last points of damage, or keep churning out 6/1 beaters in the mid- and lategame. You seem to see it as a deck that is aggro AND control, pushing more towards the control component (correct me if I'm wrong).

I think your approach uses more powerful cards and is more flexible. But I also think it has some problems...

You lose a bit of speed for the powerful effects, which can let other decks out-tempo you.
You lose some of your ability to beat opponents with a fast creature beatdown (Explorer is the worst beatdown creature ever, while Deed cannot clear the path for your beaters without killing them as well).
You now rely heavily on Intuition, whereas I try to use it as a card which helps me a lot, but still isn't completely necessary to beat an opponent. For example, Explorer mana without Genesis or Gigapede is not so useful, and neither is wiping the board with Deed (or playing sub-optimal removal in Shriekmaw). So if you can't resolve Intuition, I would expect the game to be a lot harder, and with only four Forces, you can't really keep that from happening always. There also WILL be Crypts / Leylines / Extirpates / Grunts showing up for games two and three.


Having said that, I still would like the ability to Deed against Goblins, and the ability to recur other threats other than Gigapede some other decks. I'm just not sure if that's worth the problems mentioned above. Of course, I'm always open to be convinced of my deckbuilding and playing errors :wink:

As for the other points...I think the other removal (if you want to play Shriekmaw) should be Ghastly Demise, at least if - like me - you want to play aggressively, as then the difference of one mana means a lot. But I'm convinced that the most difficult creature for this deck is Tombstalker: it's bigger than almost all of our creatures, relatively cheap, it flies, and it can't be removed by ANYTHING in our deck. It's not unbeatable, but dangerous for sure. If those are running around, I suggest Control Magic.

For reference, what I'm playing right now (besides the usual core of lands, beaters, Intuition package, cantrips, Forces) is...

no Explorers
no Shriekmaw
no Deed
no Genesis

3 Spell Snare (Force fodder that is great if you are on the draw, and also is decent against tutors, Hymns, Goyfs, CBalance etc)
2 Vinelasher Kudzu (like a Werebear that doesn't rely on the graveyard)
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Smother (because I AM worried about Confidant)
1 Darkblast (but not sure if it's worth it either)

with a sideboard of

4 Stifle
3 Extirpate (metagame choice - I'd usually play four of them)
3 Krosan Grip
3 Umezawas Jitte (Burn and Goblins)
2 Damnation (Goblins and Aggro decks in general)

I'm not sure about the Damnations, as Jitte is a mini-Damnation which doesn't harm your creatures (as well as the deck's only chance to beat Burn), and might be enough against those decks.


Finally, one suggestion for your build could be Garruk, two copies probably. It doesn't have synergy with Intuition, but rather works as Intuition #5 and #6 in that it provides an alternative card advantage machine. It has great synergy with Deed, and can provide additional mana for Genesis recursion...

memnarch
02-21-2008, 11:17 PM
I still think Psychatog is insane (I mean look at him he like a crazy goblin eating his way out of a dudes brain), and I think this deck is very powerful although my list is slightly different (and untested so I am looking for advice here). I aslo think stinkweed imp is a great creature for a few reasons:

1. Dredge is CA, 5 to be exact, its not the same as having them in your hand but this deck utilizes the graveyard. It will either translate to 2.5 extra points tog will get though or allow you to play flashback cards.

2. He flies overhead and beats for 1 which can come into play.

3. He kills creatures, allowing me to free up creature removal spots. (I may add more creature removal after further testing but ya he kills Goyfs and tombstalkers as well, but not mystic enforcer :( Fortunately I don't see alot of those).

Creatures that take up multiple functions are valuable. Just like confidant can beat and draw cards and tog and mongrel are discard outlets and beaters.

Also CA seems to win games in legacy. This deck aims to create as much of that as possible while still maintaining a heavy disruption suite to keep things in your favor and under control. With 2 free counterspells and so many low CC, CA is invaluable.

I wanted to create a deck that was similar to where UGb threshold is going but with a better late game. I like that version best because the counter balance/top/dark confident synergy and the great sideboard options black gets. Also discard AND counterspells is brutal because your opponent cant just sit back on his or her cards anymore. Combined it is the ultimate disruption.

I didn't want to have too many dredge shenanigans because I want quality cards in my hand that I can play and I feel like too many graveyard cards would be overkill. I'm talking about wonder etc. Also being able to operate after your opponent RFG your yard is big.

4 Tarmogoyf
3 dark confidant
3 Wild Mongrel
3 Psychatog
1 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 stinkweed imp

3 top
3 counterbalance

4 FOW
4 brainstorm
4 daze
3 Deep Analysis

3 Cabal Therapy

20 land (the only double color CC is counterbalance so heavier on blue)

1 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 swamp
1 island
1 forest
12 sac lands

card choices.

Deep Analysis vs. accumulated knowledge: Paying 2 to draw one card seems really bad to me thats like cycling. I have enough dredge creatures and discard outlets to get these in the yard constantly enough. And its really like getting 2 CA or drawing 3 cards rather, poping one of these out of the grave is the next best thing to ancestral recall.

Cabal Therapy: First of all there is alot of pain in this deck so thought seize would be pushing it. And with the lack of removal having discard to get rid of creatures is important. I wish there was a way to put more discard in so I wouldn't have to guess. But at the same time I know what people are playing alot of times at tournaments. The fact that it has flashback puts it in the forefront of discard for this deck. Its an out to kill confident if he is hurting you and can put imp in the grave if your opponent has no hand.

Possible problems:

life lose (not that concerned when it allows me to control the game)

not enough pitch to force of will (I usually like more blue sources but it still works with 21, thats one reason why im running 3 togs in here)

no creature removal besides stinkweed imp.

20 land: with less cantrips then thresh and 3 cc spells i don't mind going to 20 at all. I lose alot of games because of mana skrew in opening hands.

no recursion: this is where my list parts from alot of the others on the board. I would rather sideboard Genesis and have a faster more aggressive early game. Of course Im not running intuition to fetch the pieces, which I think its one of the best draws, I'm just using a dredge/ draw engine with Deep Analysis instead.

georgjorge
02-22-2008, 04:53 AM
First of all, this doesn't really look like TarmoTog anymore, as Intuition + Wonder are the core of this deck, and your deck seems to lack the mid- and lategame power that Intuition provides, seeing as you have no real recursion in there (a recurring Imp is not THAT powerful). It also much more reliant on Psychatog (Dredge is only good with it), which can be dangerous with all the removal running around. What I like about it is the CBalance engine, although I'm not sure if it really is better than the Intuition engine (seeing as you have to drop CBalance early, slowing your beatdown, whereas Intuition can be cast after the beaters are already on the board).

I really want to play Confidant myself in a deck like this, but think it shouldn't be done. Also, in your deck you have some pretty expensive cards (4 Force, 3 Analysis, 3 Psychatog, 2 Imp, 1 Troll), and since Analysis costs three life as well, it looks a bit suicidal. For the same reason (casting costs), Counterbalance looks a bit akward with the Dredgers and Analysis.

Cabal Therapy seems to suffer from a lack of creatures that you want to sac to it: discard is best in the early turns, and I can't really imagine a creature you would want to sac in these turns besides Imp.

All in all, I would be very worried about the Aggro matchup, especially Goblins, as well as Aggro-Control (first turn Lackey on the play can only be answered by Force, for example). As you said, having no real removal maindeck is a hassle. If I could change the deck, I'd probably go for a more streamlined GAT (Gro-A-Tog) build with more/better disruption to protect Tog (Duress/Thoughtseize instead of Therapy) and either cut the Confidants or the Analysis for some removal (probably Deed or Demise). I would also cut the Dredging as it has no use without Atog. Finally, the deck relying heavily on Atog, maybe two or three Sylvan Safekeepers (they can protect second turn Confidant, and get some extra cards in the graveyard for a lethal Psychatog) would be nice...

Shtriga
02-22-2008, 07:38 AM
I saw (in the CANGD section I think) a version of this deck that was more black based and board control-ish (and also ran more discard), and totally ditched the cantrip package (and forcefully FoW - while still keeping the intuition engine though). I personally liked it a lot and felt more comfortable running it on MWS. it could be a valid alternative?

memnarch
02-22-2008, 05:23 PM
Thanks for the advice! I was hoping the threat density would be enough to negate my opponents removal but Sylvan Safekeepers does seem solid here.

Im gonna go -1 Deep Analysis -3 Cabal Therapy +2 Thoughtseize +2 sylvan safekeeper and test it.

If by board control-ish you mean Pernicious Deed, I have to say with all the permanents it seems a good answer to my deck and very anti-synergetic, so that would have to be another deck entirely.

A few things I forgot to mention.

Imp also kills nimble mongoose which is important.

Wild Mongrel dodges Shriekmaw which I see entering some lists.

dredging with the top lets you see 3 new cards every turn you dredge.

counterbalance works against stax cards with this deck becuase of the higher cc spells, most of the curve goes 1-3. It also pumps goyfs when dredged.

Golgari Grave-Troll is used as the finisher. I didn't want to take up alot of slots for recursion when I can just dredge this guy back up and finish my opponent.

noobslayer
03-02-2008, 11:35 PM
You need to understand your deck first. It only needs one threat to go the distance. Something like Pernicious Deed or Engineered Explosives is exactly what you want.

Sylvan Safekeeper is like.... garbage. Seriously, don't play it. Play removal or something, or anything actually that doesn't say Sylvan Safekeeper.

Finally, Thoughtseize is way better here than Cabal Therapy is. It's very proactive, and you don't want to be saccing creatures that you want to be going the distance with.

memnarch
03-03-2008, 08:46 PM
Yes you guys are right that list is rubbish. Loam is a better engine for this deck. But what I am trying to do is create a more aggro and less controlling version. I barely got to test this list. I think the counterbalance can work for the aggro version though. And another thing I really like is the Wild Mongrel. Even though they are two to cast they are just solid beaters. And can get hits in before threshold and earlier then nimble mongoose.

But yes I really do need recursion to beat other decks in the late game. I don't think I realized the draw and filtering power of loam + Cephalid Coliseum.

The list had to much pain in it as well.

So this is the new list I am using:


4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Mongrel
2 dark confidant
3 Psychatog
1 Shriekmaw
1 Viridian Zealot
1 genisis

1 life from the loam

4 top
3 counterbalance

4 FOW
4 daze / spell snare
4 intuition

4 duress

20 land

1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Volrath's stronghold
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 swamp
1 island
1 forest
11 sac lands

Oh ya and by the way someone came up with a pretty snazzy name I think on MTG:
"Modern Dentistry"
It seems appropriate seeing as tog was referred to as dr. teeth and this is a modern update of an older deck. Also whats more terrifying then a trip to the dentist?

memnarch
03-04-2008, 02:32 PM
Do you think stifle could go in place of daze or spell snare? wasteland hurts this deck, tormod's crypt hurts it late game and combo is a tough match up. That said pithing needle might not be a bad sideboard option because people always side in crypt VS this deck.

georgjorge
03-04-2008, 05:08 PM
As to the list...

Since you want to play beatdown, there's no reason not to include Wonder, which can finish off opponents much faster than Genesis, and is nice with the Atog. Spell Snare is better than Daze here since you want to actually get up to four or five mana fast for Loam abuse, even if you weren't running Genesis. Duress is a solid spell, but I'd prefer spot removal instead if you're not really playing in a combo-heavy meta...I find that in current Legacy, there aren't that many spells you HAVE to get rid of (especially when you can recur you threats), but there are some nasty creatures which can kill you fast (Countryside Crusher, Terravore, first turn Lackey).

Regarding CBalance + Top, I really would like it to work here, but my problem with it is that it needs to be played early, when you want to play beatdown creatures instead, and not late like Intuition. But your casting costs look pretty good for abusing it...

Hanni
03-11-2008, 02:45 AM
I haven't been around in a while but all of the newer lists I keep seeing posted seem too unfocused. Like... why run Volrath's Stronghold when you have Genesis? You don't need a ton of toolbox options... focus on the better card(s) and leave the other ones out. I understand how something like Extirpate would cause someone to want to run extra cards that do the same thing but... this deck doesn't need the card advantage engines to win. What's the whole deal with Gigapede? Why do you need another discard outlet when your first Intuition should almost always include Loam and Coliseum? The deck doesn't need a self recurring beater when it has Genesis... and if you lose your Genesis, you still have better (read: more efficient) beaters to finish the job.

Ah Shriekmaw, this is a very amazing card. As a removal option, it makes the Dredge mechanic in this deck so much more dangerous. Now, you can Dredge into a recurrable removal source if you have Genesis in the yard. Not only that, but additional Shriekmaw's aren't going to be dead since they can be cast as creatures... and what's even better is that they have built in evasion for when you don't have Wonder in the yard or for when the opponent has flyers of their own. Shriekmaw answers just about everything you'd need it to answer, considering Deed answers black creatures at the lower cc range (Shade, Confidant, etc). I really don't like Smother, especially since it has the same problems against larger cc guys that Deed has. The only noticeable problems with Shriekmaw is Tombstalker and Sutured Ghoul (and possibly Spectral Lynx). Fortunately, I don't think either of those make up a significant portion of the metagame and sufficient Sideboard options can be ran to handle them.

I also don't understand some other concepts. First of all, why does this deck necessarily want to play into the late game? It's tempo-oriented like Threshold just as much as it is control-oriented like Landstill. Secondly, why was Psychatog considered a worse option than Mongrel? Not only does his being blue and black make him easier to cast through cards like Blood Moon, he ups the blue spell count for Force of Will... and neither of those two things I just said are as important as him being a finisher. When the games do drag out and you finally drop a Tog, you're gonna win next turn unless your opponent has an answer to him (like StP). Tog in itself is a major reason why this deck is so strong... the deck can go from merely stabalizing with Deed or Goyf sitting back as a blocker and then out of nowhere drop a Tog and win the following turn. Maybe I play the deck differently but I know that my matchups against Goblins, for example, is greatly improved when I stabilize on defense and then drop a Tog and swing once for lethal.

DAT Thresh is, in my opinion, the strongest deck in the format for a ton of reasons. Here's my current maindeck list:

U/G/b DAT Thresh

Lands (19)
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

Creatures (15)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Psychatog
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
3 Shriekmaw

Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed

I like how this list is much less cluttered than other lists I've seen. It doesn't try to add multiple different options that do the same thing... instead it focuses on the best cards that do the job. For example, no Lonely Sandbars, no Academy Ruins, no Volrath's Stronghold, no Gigapede, so on and so forth. The extra slots available because of this allows me to run more disruption/protection in Daze and Cabal Therapy.

I've seen several people dismiss Daze because this deck is being considered a control deck. This deck is tempo-oriented just as much as it is control-oriented, except the control portion isn't as mana intensive as your standard control deck. Aside from the 1GU + land drop for the turn via Loam + Coliseum CA, this deck has a fairly low curve for a control deck. 3 mana sources casts every spell in the deck with 6 mana sources in total being all you really need (more doesn't hurt but by no means is this deck as mana intensive as a deck like Landstill is). Daze improves your early game stabilaztion against everything... from Goblins, to combo, to Dragon Stompy... it helps. The ability to tempo the opponent early while you ride a Mongoose or Goyf is strong and just as viable here as it is in standard Threshold.

I know for a fact that Cabal Therapy is going to standout to alot of people as an eyesore on paper. This deck Dredges frequently, blows up its own creatures from time to time with Deed, and has recurrability. It's really not that big of a deal to sac a guy to Therapy. Therapy gives the deck added control options vs combo and is still useful vs aggro like Goblins. I think my favorite part about Cabal Therapy, though, is being able to sac a Mongoose or Goyf the turn after I drop my Tog to secure the win. Not only that but the ability to see the opponent's hand in general is extremely strong when you're playing cards like Force of Will and Pernicious Deed. I prefer Cabal Therapy over Duress or Thoughtseize in this deck simply because this deck supports Cabal Therapy so well.

On a final note as far as the Maindeck goes, I just want to say that I think the 3 green fetchlands + 1 basic Forest is extremely important with Dragon Stompy and other nonbasic hating decks running about. It may not seem like it's going to help much... but with 8 cantrips and especially with Intuition (grabbing Loam and the Forest if one of the green fetches isn't in the graveyard), it does help.

Sideboard options are wide open. This deck utilizes engines for both creature recursion and land recursion, therefore making toolbox options viable. The deck also has access to very powerful cards like Thoughtseize, Stifle, Krosan Grip, and much more. I'm not as familiar with the metagame anymore as I used to be since I hardly ever play nowadays and I don't patrol the forums as much... so I'm not going to list a sideboard at this time. However, this is a skeleton for what I might include:

Sideboard (?)
1 Gigapede/Volrath's Stronghold
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Trygon Predator
1 Darkblast/Stinkweed Imp/Maze of Ith
1 Pernicious Deed
X Engineered Explosives
X Krosan Grip
X Pithing Needle
X Extirpate
X Stifle
X Thoughtseize/Duress
X Berserk

*******************

My current sideboard, which is just a general shell for the moment:

Sideboard (15)
3 Stifle
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Gigapede

More info on page 7 of this thread: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6230&page=7

georgjorge
03-11-2008, 06:25 AM
While I agree that some of the lists are cluttered with "cool stuff", I think your list is a bit too dependent on the graveyard recursion as well (stuff that is not so good without recursion includes Therapy, Shriekmaw, Deed), thus weakening the "only beatdown" option. But as I detailed in a previous post, there seem to be two paths to building this deck, mine (not being necessarily better) being to minimize the number of cards that depend on the recursion provided by Intuition/Genesis/Loam and increase the beatdown component.

As for Gigapede, I have found that with Legacy being very tempo-based, there are situations when you don't want to pay 1GU plus a land drop for coliseum to get that Wonder into the yard, but rather do it for free with Gigapede. It's true that both Genesis and Gigapede is too much, I just prefer 'Pede for tempo reasons...

Solpugid
03-11-2008, 10:58 AM
What's the whole deal with Gigapede? Why do you need another discard outlet when your first Intuition should almost always include Loam and Coliseum? The deck doesn't need a self recurring beater when it has Genesis... and if you lose your Genesis, you still have better (read: more efficient) beaters to finish the job.


why does this deck necessarily want to play into the late game? It's tempo-oriented like Threshold just as much as it is control-oriented like Landstill.

I felt the same way at first, until I played the deck for a while and realized how crucial he is. This deck, more so than almost any I've ever played, is alays hurting for mana. Being forced to use loam+coliseum to discard your incarnations is not always ideal. Besides that, gigapede is an amazing win condition. He's incredibly hard to remove, which makes him an ideal finisher (especially if wonder is in the grave).

As a side note, I usually intuition for wonder/genesis/gigapede first (before the loam package) because I usually have a creature or two in play by turn three. This forces my opponent to answer those creatures, whereas loaming can set you up for a long game, but as you said yourself (quoted above) this shouldn't be your top priority.


I know for a fact that Cabal Therapy is going to standout to alot of people as an eyesore on paper.

I holeheartedly agree with you on the power of therapy in this style of deck. However, it's far more powerful when combined with birds of paradise, which I think improve this deck a lot (because of turn 2 intuitions instead of turn 3).

Hanni
03-11-2008, 01:36 PM
I felt the same way at first, until I played the deck for a while and realized how crucial he is. This deck, more so than almost any I've ever played, is alays hurting for mana. Being forced to use loam+coliseum to discard your incarnations is not always ideal. Besides that, gigapede is an amazing win condition. He's incredibly hard to remove, which makes him an ideal finisher (especially if wonder is in the grave).

As a side note, I usually intuition for wonder/genesis/gigapede first (before the loam package) because I usually have a creature or two in play by turn three. This forces my opponent to answer those creatures, whereas loaming can set you up for a long game, but as you said yourself (quoted above) this shouldn't be your top priority.


See, usually this is what happens when I have Intuition and I hit 3 lands:

At opponent's EoT, Intuition for Loam, Coliseum, Genesis. Let's suppose they give me Genesis.

My turn, Dredge 3 for Loam. Cast Loam grabbing Coliseum and 2 other lands.

At this point it depends on what else is in my hand. If I don't plan on using the ability of Genesis next turn, the need to use Coliseum is diminished for this turn. Usually though, I'll play Coliseum, use Coliseum, and build up a strong hand that usually has at least 1 land drop for next turn.

The following turn, if I did the Coliseum play last turn, usually doesn't involve me Loam'ing. Oftentimes I Genesis; Mongoose is perfect here. Then I make my land drop... if I have Mongoose, I drop him. Next turn, if I don't have any more land drops in hand, I'll Dredge for Loam again, grabbing Coliseum and 2 other lands. If I want to make more land drops, I'll wait till next turn or the turn after to play Coliseum. This deck only needs so many mana sources though...

Now, I have the Loam + Coliseum engine ready for use to generate raw CA + CQ, which also happens to put 6 cards in the graveyard a turn for quicker Tog kills.

The other thing is that I'm not as concerned with Wonder as so many other people are. With Force, Daze, Therapy, Shriekmaw, and Deed... you don't always need flying to get through creature combat. Thresh rarely utilizes flying... and if they do use Mystic Enforcer, it's as a late game finisher. Plus, the deck runs 4 Intuitions... there are many games where you do draw multiples.

I just don't see Gigapede as the best option. 3GG for a 6/1 is pretty poor, untargetability or not. If we need untargetability, we already have Mongoose. A 3/3 isn't as fast of a clock as a 6/1 but I don't see how that matters when one costs G and the other costs 3GG. Gigapede, aside from discarding Wonder and Genesis, is card disadvantage. Genesis and Coliseum (Coliseum with Loam anyway) both provide card advantage.

That is how I see it, though. If Gigapede is working for you, continue to run him. However, I doubt that I will be putting Gigapede into the maindeck of any of my DAT builds.

---


I holeheartedly agree with you on the power of therapy in this style of deck. However, it's far more powerful when combined with birds of paradise, which I think improve this deck a lot (because of turn 2 intuitions instead of turn 3).

As far as Cabal Therapy goes... the point isn't to burn away Birds, the point is to give the deck against early game resilience vs fast combo where it wouldn't otherwise have it. The other point is the ability to Therapy before RFG'ing cards to Tog... if you gte rid of that StP, or Therapy to find they have no answer, you can swing ftw. The beauty of Therapy over the other discard options here is that it can be sitting in your graveyard from prior use or Dredging, which will give you more frequent access to it than other discard options.

The other great thing about Therapy is that it gives you extra Intuition targets once all the toolbox stuff you need has already been grabbed: consider you don't need Wasteland. Your first Intuition grabbed Loam, Coliseum, and Genesis. Shriekmaw has already been Dredged into the graveyard before hitting Intuition number two. Now when you Intuition, you grab Wonder. Now you can grab Tog if he isn't already in your graveyard. But what about that final spot? Cabal Therapy is a great filler card for Intuition fodder.

Just my opinion on Cabal Therapy vs other discard options. This deck DOES need some maindeck discard though. If you'd prefer Duress or Thoughtseize over Cabal Therapy, cool. This deck supports Cabal Therapy way too well to not run it instead, though.

I do understand what you mean about Birds itself. I don't think Bird's is needed here for the same reasons why I wouldn't run Mox Diamond (if I had enough lands to do so) or Chrome Mox. Turn 2 Intuitions are very nice but this deck doesn't need to race. Unless you have a turn 2 Intuition, accel is going to be very subpar after that. I usually like to cantrip, lay down a guy, etc in the first few turns anyway. There are only 60 card slots available and so many powerful options that this deck has at its disposal. You really have to choose the strongest of the available options and leave the other slightly less strong options out. This goes back to my reasoning on Gigapede as well... but again this is all my personal opinion.

---


I think your list is a bit too dependent on the graveyard recursion as well (stuff that is not so good without recursion includes Therapy, Shriekmaw, Deed),

Yes, this deck is graveyard dependant. So is Threshold. Any version of this deck, aside from the versions with Wild Mongrel, are going to have the same problem. That's what Force, Daze, and Cabal Therapy are supposed to help with. I'm not sure how Therapy, Shriekmaw, and Deed push this deck into any heavier of a graveyard reliance, though.

from Cairo
03-11-2008, 01:48 PM
Just my opinion on Cabal Therapy vs other discard options. This deck DOES need some maindeck discard though. If you'd prefer Duress or Thoughtseize over Cabal Therapy, cool. This deck supports Cabal Therapy way too well to not run it instead, though.

Other than Intuition for 3 Therapy, which is quite strong, the card on its own seems worse than Thoughtseize. You dont have anything creature wise that stands out as Cabal Therapy fodder, I guess Mongeese (or Wonder/Genesis), but most of your creatures once on the board are pretty good threats I wouldn't want to be saccing for flashback.

I would think maybe 2 Thoughtseize 1 Therapy so you can still throw it into Intuition packages since it functions out of the yard, but as a one-of it won't come up as often naturally.

bigbear102
03-11-2008, 02:32 PM
I'll Dredge for Loam again, grabbing Intuition, Coliseum, and 2 lands.

How exactly do you dredge Loam for an Intuition??? lol.

Anyway, Gigapede seems like a perfect fit for this deck. You have plenty of 1-of's that you want in the yard, and Gigapede guarantees and Intuition stack that gets 2 of them there.

It also is an awesome beater. Sure, Mongoose costs one, but what does Mongoose do against Tarmogoyf? Gigapede usually ends games in 3 swings if you have Wonder in the yard, which you will if you Intuitioned for Gigapede. It gets around a lot of the removal in the format that your other threats die to, including Deed. If they tap out to kill your Gigapede, that's awesome, cuz you play it again.

I would personally play it as a 1-of to improve consistency with Intuition. Without a 'Tog in play you don't have a reliable discard outlet, unless you Therapy yourself, which usually isn't the best play. I would play it over 1 Goose, as that would leave you with 11 turn 1 plays for the deck, excluding Daze and FoW.

As for Shriekmaw and Therapy making the deck more graveyard-based, it's because you can recur Shriekmaw, and Therapy is obvious, Deed on the other hand... I guess maybe because you will kill your own threats and have to Genesis them back? I dunno about that one...

Anyway, I think I might start tinkering with these lists a bit. It does seem like a good choice for the current meta.

georgjorge
03-11-2008, 04:09 PM
Yes, this deck is graveyard dependant. So is Threshold. Any version of this deck, aside from the versions with Wild Mongrel, are going to have the same problem. That's what Force, Daze, and Cabal Therapy are supposed to help with. I'm not sure how Therapy, Shriekmaw, and Deed push this deck into any heavier of a graveyard reliance, though.

I dare say your version is more dependant then Threshold as, say, a Crypt or Leyline is going to cause you a lot more problems. I listed the following cards as examples because they can ONLY function well if you got Genesis or Loam/Coliseum recursion going (Shriekmaw is worse than Demise or Smother otherwise, Deed wiping your own creatures is not exciting if they can't be recurred) or if you dredge them into the yard (like stated above, Therapy from your hand is usually better as Thoughtseize). So while they can be played on their own, they are put into the deck primarily because of their synergy with the recursion, which causes problems if you don't get the recursion.

Once again, I don't mean to bash your version, just to say that in my opinion, it pushes the deck down a more combo-controllish path.

Hanni
03-12-2008, 01:25 AM
How exactly do you dredge Loam for an Intuition??? lol.


That's a typo, Intuition shouldn't have been in the sentence. I'll fix that.


Anyway, Gigapede seems like a perfect fit for this deck. You have plenty of 1-of's that you want in the yard, and Gigapede guarantees and Intuition stack that gets 2 of them there.

There are only 2 1-of's in the deck that you'd rather have in the yard than in hand. Those being Wonder and Genesis. The first Intuition should almost always, like 95% of the time, be grabbing Loam, Coliseum, and Genesis. The remaining 5% or so of the time should be Loam, Coliseum, and Wasteland as the first Intuition targets. If you have Wonder or Genesis in hand, you can restack them back into the deck via Brainstorm or Ponder and then Dredge, or simply toss them back in with Brainstorm or Ponder and then Intuition for them later. Plus there are still 2 Psychatogs to discard them to if you need to. Very rarely is any of this an issue.


It also is an awesome beater. Sure, Mongoose costs one, but what does Mongoose do against Tarmogoyf? Gigapede usually ends games in 3 swings if you have Wonder in the yard, which you will if you Intuitioned for Gigapede. It gets around a lot of the removal in the format that your other threats die to, including Deed. If they tap out to kill your Gigapede, that's awesome, cuz you play it again.


Gigapede forces you to discard a card to recur a 6/1 that costs 3GG to play. Why does Mongoose need to do anything to Tarmogoyf when this deck has sufficient answers to Tarmogoyf already? The current aggro in the deck can end the game quickly once Wonder is in the yard and none of them cost 5 mana to do so. Maybe if you are looking at it from the perspective of Genesis recurring... but the reason that you're Tarmogoyf costs 5 mana from Genesis recurring is because its granting you card advantage. I never said Gigapede was a bad card, nor wasn't a good card in the deck. I'm simply saying that it isn't needed. If I need untargetability for whatever reason, I have Mongoose for that. If I need a large body, I have Tarmogoyf for that. Sure, Gigapede can end the game in 3 swings when Wonder is in the yard... Tog can end the game in 1 though.

However, I do see 2 positives for Gigapede.

1) At 5cc, he's often going to be out of Deed range.
2) Postboard, against decks that bring in grave hate, he can be a second recur source that you can Intuition for if Genesis gets RFG'd.

It's not a bad idea to run 1 Gigapede in the sideboard vs control decks that bring in graveyard hate for you.
But I really don't see why I'm worried about him being out of Deed range. As a 1-of, you need to Intuition for him to find him (more often than not). I've already explained what the Intuition piles for this deck should look like:

Intuition #1 - Loam, Coliseum, Genesis/Wasteland

You'll want to grab Wasteland against any deck where a Wasteland lock will autowin you the matchup. Otherwise, you want to grab Genesis.

Now, the next pile depends on position... sometimes you are going to want to grab a certain creature if you don't already have one in hand, play, or graveyard. Shriekmaw is the obvious one you want to have around so you have recurrable removal if you need it. If we already have a Shriekmaw in a zone other than the Library or RFG, this is usually what you want your next Intuition pile to look like:

Intuition #2 - Wonder, Psychatog, Cabal Therapy

At this point the game should be pretty much over. Hopefully you have at least 1 creature in play to sac to Cabal Therapy to clear the way for Tog. Cast Tog, discard Wonder to Tog, and swing ftw.

Nowhere in either of those 2 piles would it be more efficient to grab Gigapede, unless the opponent disabled Genesis. If you see lots of yard hate maindeck, Gigapede would probably be a good option... but then again, why not just play a different deck if your meta is full of maindeck yard hate?

Again, this is my opinion. Everyone else seems to be pro Gigapede and I'm not trying to convince anyone to do things my way. I'm simply vocalizing my opinion. I think Gigapede is a good card maindeck but I don't think Gigapede is needed maindeck. The same way that I think Volrath's Stronghold is a good card maindeck but is not needed maindeck.

As a long time DAT player, I know how difficult the deck can be to pilot when you have so many options available to you and you're not sure which one to choose. When you really look at it though, there doesn't need to be too many options.

By removing redundant toolbox options, the deck can focus on exactly what it wants to do. Not only that, it makes sure the deck does it in the most efficient manner. The way I play the deck, fitting Gigapede into an Intuition pile just isn't as effecient as the other Intuition piles I normally use.


I would personally play it as a 1-of to improve consistency with Intuition. Without a 'Tog in play you don't have a reliable discard outlet

Loam + Coliseum is the discard outlet... and if the deck doesn't have Threshold after you Dredge for the first time, it will after you Dredge the second time.

Personally, I wouldn't even run Loam in the deck if I wasn't utilizing Coliseum. Then again, I wouldn't run Psychatog either.


Shriekmaw is worse than Demise or Smother otherwise

We'll have to agree to disagree then. Even without recursion, Demise is going to be worse against graveyard hate. Smother doesn't have issues with graveyard hate but it still has the same pitfalls as Deed has (problems with higher cc stuff). Even without recursion, Shriekmaw is still a great card... it's like Flametongue Kavu but way better (in my opinion).


Deed wiping your own creatures is not exciting if they can't be recurred

Depends on what you are playing against, I suppose. If I'm playing against Goblins or Affinity or something similar and they have a ton of stuff out, it actually is exciting for me to Deed and then proceed to drop a Tarmogoyf or something. I play Deed in my B/g/w Deadguy Rock deck without any recursion and it actually does work well. It's not gonna work [I]as well in this deck without recursion, but still.


So while they can be played on their own, they are put into the deck primarily because of their synergy with the recursion, which causes problems if you don't get the recursion.

Once again, I don't mean to bash your version, just to say that in my opinion, it pushes the deck down a more combo-controllish path.

This deck is built utilizing the graveyard. If the reason I shouldn't play cards like Cabal Therapy are because of an increased graveyard dependance... why should I even play the deck in the first place?

I find myself using the Loam + Coliseum engine often, which happens to put alot of cards in the graveyard. Cards like Force of Will don't matter to me after they get tossed in the bin. This is where Cabal Therapy shines to me, since I still have disruption available to me even if it gets Dredged away. I already said that running Thoughtseize or Duress instead is something others can do if they want. Cabal Therapy has far more synergy with this deck, however, and is why I prefer it over the other options.

As far as the way my version is built... the 4/4/2 combination of Mongoose, Goyf, and Tog is the same configuration that most Threshold lists run, with Mystic Enforcer instead of Psychatog. Both Enforcer and Tog are intended to be finishers. In here, though, Tog can end the game in 1 swing where Enforcer usually takes a few. I'm guessing that you consider my version more comboish because of the Tog finishes. I look at it the same way... and that semi-combo element improves fast aggro strategy matchups like Goblins.

The deck does utilize more control, you're right... if I wanted to play a more aggro version, I'd rather play Threshold or Survival. A heavy aggro-oriented version of this deck has much less synergy with cards like Deed and a weaker combo matchup due to less disruption. It is my personal opinion that the aggro versions of this deck improves matchups that don't need improved that much while weakening matchups that need to be improved more.

---

At any rate, criticism is always a good thing. Just because I refute the criticism doesn't mean that the criticism doesn't strengthen the topic.

Alot of my deckbuilding is biased based on the way I play the deck. It is also biased based on what matchups I find to be easier and/or harder based on the way I play the deck.

So basically, all the long verboseness of my posts are all personal playstyle biases and opinions. If the decklist doesn't work for you as well as other lists do, then run the other list(s). From all the lists I've seen in this thread since the last time I posted, I like mine the best. It cuts out alot of redundancy and toolbox options and focuses on what I've found to be the most effecient means. This doesn't mean my decklist is the best. The only reason I posted the decklist and explained it thoroughly was to offer it to anyone who actually still plays this game competitively (since I don't). I think it is quite capable of making it to the DTB Forum if people were to start piloting it.

Goaswerfraiejen
03-12-2008, 07:35 AM
Holy posts all of a sudden! I'll make more substantial responses when I have a little more time, but for now, I want to say that I've seen you mention Stronghold twice now, Hanni, but I cut it from the deck weeks ago, so I'm not entirely sure to which version of the deck you're referring. I agree that it's an inferior card choice, and I'd really prefer either Wasteland or a basic land (I opted for a basic land, and Wasteland in the sideboard, because of VE).

Hanni
03-12-2008, 01:01 PM
I want to say that I've seen you mention Stronghold twice now,

I was looking at decklists from page 2 to whatever page we're on now. It wasn't that I wanted to specifically address that particular card as much as I wanted to address redundancy in toolbox options.

Hanni
03-15-2008, 10:22 AM
DTB Forum in mtg is:

MUC
Landstill
Stax
Rock
Faerie Stompy
Aggro Loam
UGr Threshold
Vial Goblins
Deadguy
UGw Threshold
UGb Threshold
RGb Survival

This metagame looks prime for DAT Thresh... why isn't it top 8'ing?

memnarch
03-16-2008, 06:32 PM
So after some testing I have found that I do indeed want Pernicious Deed more then counterbalance. I come into more aggro then combo and decks like affinity that can belch up a bunch of ankle bitters were I NEED to sweep the board or I'm dead. So out goes confident top and counterbalance in my build + 4 deeds. Even powder keg could be good.

Hanni I think you convinced me of wasteland over Volrath's Stronghold. That makes sense to diversify the answers in the deck When your already running Genesis. But by the same token your attack strategy should be diversified as well. You have to think what happens after my opponent blows up my grave because there is so much grave hate in sideboards now days.

I DO like Wild Mongrel in this deck though. He is just a solid threat and another discard outlet.

One of the dilemmas of the deck is that it is fairly mana hungry and it wants to play free counters because it plays so many sorcery speed spells. Daze sets us back but it may be worth it. The only other option really is disrupting shoal and there isnt enough different cc blue cards in the deck to warrant that.

Do you guys think Viridian Zealot is worth it? I use him only because he is a recurring answer to artifacts and enchantments and it almost always comes up. He kills himself and is the closest thing to an evoke that naturalizes.

On Cabal Therapy vs. duress/thought seize. Cabal therapy is insane for one mana. It can discard multiple cards as well. In a tournament it could be very good especially if you know what people are playing. Cards were you name things like pithing needle and cabal therapy can be almost like cheating when you know what to name before hand. But you can miss easier with cabal therapy. In a big tournament I like duress more. The format is so diverse Im not sure what to expect so in that situation I much rather have duress.

Hanni
03-16-2008, 06:54 PM
One of the dilemmas of the deck is that it is fairly mana hungry and it wants to play free counters because it plays so many sorcery speed spells. Daze sets us back but it may be worth it. The only other option really is disrupting shoal and there isnt enough different cc blue cards in the deck to warrant that.

You have to think what happens after my opponent blows up my grave because there is so much grave hate in sideboards now days.

This deck isn't mana hungry when it is in Threshold mode. Brainstorm, Ponder, Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, Shriekmaw cast via Evoke, and Cabal Therapy are all low cc. Daze is an additional tempo-oriented disruption tool that compliments that aspect of the deck very well. Once the deck draws Intuition, it then shifts into control mode. However, the deck still isn't very mana hungry at this point. The deck becomes mana hungry once it establishes the Loam + Coliseum and Genesis engines. The fact that Daze answers an early problem typically negates the land drop setback. Obviously, if it is important to hit land drop #3 on turn 3, then you won't use Daze... instead you can discard it later to Cephalid Coliseum or pitch it to Force of Will. More often than not, it's not going to be a big deal. Loam ensures the deck makes a land drop every turn... and this deck doesn't need a billion mana sources to actually win a game anyway.

You are right. Graveyard hate is something that this deck has to deal with. That's one of the reasons I like to run Daze.

As for other options... I think that, rather than trying to add non graveyard dependant alternatives, simply bording into additional disruption would be better overall. This deck is obviously dependant on its graveyard and should remain that way because thats what makes the deck work so well. We have maindeck answers to graveyard hate in Force, Daze, Cabal Therapy, and Pernicious Deed. SB, we get access to cards like Stifle, Krosan Grip, and Pithing Needle. The only graveyard hate that honestly scares me is Extirpate, since its impossible to answer after it goes on the stack. Discard would be the only means of answering it... and even then it won't always work since they can cast it in response.

The thing I like is that this deck doesn't roll over and die to graveyard hate like a deck like Ichorid does. Even once our graveyard gets nuked, we still have Goyf and Shriekmaw as beaters. Leyline just slows us down since we do have Deed as an answer and Planar Void can also be answered via Force, Daze, and Therapy. Even through Exitirpate or Crypt on our engine cards, we can still play out like Threshold.

We can even board an extra Genesis, Loam, Gigapede, etc to bring in as additional engines incase our engine gets hit and we need the engine to win (typically vs a board control deck like Landstill).

To be honest... half the time I don't even use the engine because simply playing the Threshold gameplan works against many matchups (...plus sometimes I don't get to see the engine).

EDIT: **********************************************************

Even though no one seems to be interested in this deck... I've been thinking lately about what the sideboard should look like. Now I know that if I had an actual metagame that my sideboard would probably be dependant on that... but given that I don't play IRL whatsoever and that I'm simply trying to build the deck so that it can handle everything and more specifically the DTB's, what should the sideboard look like?

This is what I've got right now:

Sideboard (15)
3 Stifle
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Gigapede

I'll explain this a little.

I think Extirpate is an amazing card. It answers specific problems against certain decks... specifically other control matchups like Landstill. I can go into detail about this card but I definitely think its spot is well deserved in the sideboard.

I was a little unsure if I really wanted to have Engineered Explosives in the sideboard since I already run Deed but then I decided that additional removal wasn't a bad idea. It's more effecient than Deed against tokens, whether they are EtW or Bridge from Below tokens. It also dodges Needle set to Deed... and diversifying the removal options in that regard seemed fine. My question about these still, though, is whether or not they are needed and whether or not a better card choice would fit here.

I really think it's wrong to not run the 4th Deed in the sideboard though... this card just completely wrecks decks like Affinity, Stax, and Enchantress while still being an extremely strong card against decks like Goblins and Counterbalance Thresh.

I feel that the lone Stinkweed Imp is entirely needed, at least for my build of the deck. The maindeck has absolutely no way to deal with an early Tombstalker. The only outs I have take a long time to get going... either popping Deed for 8 or getting a Wonder in the yard and blocking with enough meat. Tombstalker isn't a huge meta issue, which is why I wouldn't maindeck the Imp... but I feel that it is enough of an issue to at least have an out for it. I prefer Stinkweed Imp over other options for handling Tombstalker since it can be grabbed with Intuition and doesn't need anything for me to return it to hand. It's also reusable and can handle other random stuff. I was considering Maze of Ith but ultimately decided that Stinkweed Imp was the better option.

The lone Gigapede can come in if you fear/know that the opponent will be bringing in alot of graveyard hate and if you need the lategame reach if the Loam+Coliseum and Genesis engines get RFG'd. It's untargetability makes it pretty solid against control decks too... which is the type of matchup where I'd want him most. I was considering Volrath's Stronghold here instead but utimately decided on Gigapede for a number of reasons.

Now...

I'm wondering how big of an issue combo is and whether or not more combo hate would be appropriate in the board. I feel like I have sufficient hate right now, especially since all of it is useful against other matchups as well, but... how much better would Duress/Thoughtseize be in the board? Or what about Counterbalances? These are some of the things that I think would be beneficial for discussion.

So... what could get cut, what should get cut, and what am I not running that I should be running? Assume that the metagame is random and full of DTB's as well as full of other Established randomness (and when I say randomness, I don't mean bad decks). Basically, if there was a huge Legacy GP tomorrow, what would [you] put in the sideboard?

Goaswerfraiejen
03-22-2008, 12:58 PM
FYI, I'm working on another rather large post to address a ton of stuff. Unfortunately, I'm tight on time at the moment because I have to give priority to my thesis. That being said, you can expect the post in the next few days.


I just wanted to post a more attractive deck-name idea or concept; having just recently been hooked onto Star Trek: Voyager, I wonder how many groans of exasperation might be elicited with a Borg-based name? It's got the right colour scheme, and the concept fits (I've assimilated the best parts of a chunk of decks into one monstrosity).

Anyway. Interesting asides aside, just one quick thing: Hanni, for the sideboard, that's what I've been gearing the sideboards that I've been giving for (immediate and generalized tournament metagames, that is). Extirpate is amazing, as you've noted. We also want a complement to Deed; I choose Crime/Punishment because it's invulnerable to Needle, and can hit a wider range of casting costs (much easier to achieve now, with VE) without waiting for activation. Due to the Deeds and Deed-complements, however, I usually choose not to run Krosan Grip--the only deck it's particularly useful against is Dreadstill or other Dreadnought-based decks. It may become increasingly more necessary, true, and given metagames might require it; on the other hand, Deed and its sisters do all of the same things in most cases. If you need sideboard slots, take those used by the Grips. Similarly, I've found that Deed and Punishment generally take care of what I might want to Needle. Other than that, I don't want to comment on your choices, simply because they're far more deck-specific. You can get away with 3 Stifle, for example, whereas I can't.

Thanks for the posts and tinkering with the deck, by the way. Even if I'm biased towards my version, it's nice to see. :smile:



...so yeah. Long post coming relatively soon. Watch out; your genetic and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own.

Jak
03-27-2008, 05:23 PM
Wow! This deck caught my eye and I have been testing it. It has been amazing. Now, I made some changes right away because I hated having just FoW. I added Daze quickly but wanted more still. I thought about discard, but that just didn't appeal to me. I tried out CB and it was awesome.

I know what Goaswerfraiejen (copy + paste, FTW) said about Deed and Counterbalance, but I just don't like the reasoning. We should really only use Deed when we are in an unfavorable board position. We play CB so we can get in a favorable board position. Deed may hit a CB once in a while, but if you have to do that then you were losing anyway and had to.

Counterbalance was crazy strong in testing. This deck has plenty of 2 and 3 cc stuff that it can use it more effectively than Thresh. I have played games on MWS where a guy gets out 2 Bobs and I am able to just over power him with CA countering everything he played. His hand at the end of the game was seven 1 cc. I countered those.

List
// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [A] Tropical Island
3 [B] Underground Sea
1 [TE] Wasteland
3 [LRW] Island (3)
1 [MM] Swamp (2)
1 [RAV] Forest (3)
1 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
2 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [JU] Genesis
2 [OD] Psychatog
1 [JU] Wonder

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [TE] Intuition

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [ON] Smother
SB: 2 [ON] Gigapede (could be Krosan Grip)
SB: 2 [DIS] Crime/Punishment (could be EE)

In all the games I played, I used Deed maybe twice. I loved that. I didn't have to rely on Deed to gain CA and out man the opponent. A turn 2 balance kept decks like Thresh, fish, and sui black in check so my guys could then fly over. If I ever needed to, Deed would reset the board.

Also, the deck is 61 cards. I play 20 lands and that felt right, probably too much, so 1 Underground Sea would be the first card cut.

Goaswerfraiejen
04-15-2008, 10:50 PM
I defended my thesis on Monday morning, so I've had some time to touch up the post a bit and it's ready to post. I made some important changes to the deck since the Shadowmoor spoiler started going up, so there may be some small inconsistencies in the post, resulting from some sections being written prior to these changes. So here goes:


------


Jeeze, where do I start replying? I suppose I can start by saying that Veteran Explorer is actually working out quite nicely. Heís the worst beater ever, but consistently powers plays the likes of which you can only fantasize about. Hitting five mana on turn three is insane--hell, you can even hardcast Genesis if you want to!--and a huge boon against Goblins, because it allows you to get huge walls (and devastating Deeds) in place that much earlier. Heís proven to be an excellent investment, and a great workaround for our mana problems.

Now, an updated list:

2 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
1 Island
2 Swamp
2 Forest

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Psychatog
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Shriekmaw
1 Gigapede
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
1 Eternal Witness

4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sudden Death
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam
SB:

4 Extirpate/Leyline of the Void
4 Stifle
3 Krosan Grip
3 Daze
1 Sudden Death


One thing that has changed a great deal since my last significant post is my removal suite. When I saw the Swans on the Shadowmoor spoiler, I realized pretty quickly that they would prove problematic for TarmoTog, making an excellent matchup into a horrid one. I spent a fair bit of time trying to find some sort of permanent in-colour answer, should SwanThresh become popular, and then I remembered split second.

Accordingly, I added three Sudden Death to the main deck, cut all but one Shriekmaw, and replaced the Mongrels with Psychatogs to allow for more combo-potential on my own deckís part (Iím not entirely convinced, by the way. The deck needs a bit more tinkering to facilitate a lethal tog-swing). I also re-tooled the sideboard a bit. The result isnít anything that will have an easy matchup against SwanThresh, but it stands a MUCH better chance than its predecessor. Iíve been testing on and off in my spare time, and so far Iím quite happy with the result: the changes that Iíve made have a wide application outside just the SwanThresh matchup, and itís left the deckís performance levels at about the same, or perhaps slightly higher. Sudden Death, for one, has proven a rather useful little beast, smashing out Tarmogoyfs and Tombstalkers in combat, eating up the occasional Mother of Runes, Siege-Gang Commanders, etc. Iím really quite happy with my current removal suite.

Similarly, sideboarding Daze allows for some interesting transformations post-board, allowing you to adopt a more strictly Threshold plan against combo, Stax, and the like. Iíve been finding myself adopting this plan a fair bit to confound quite a few decks that I encounter online, but I havenít yet determined the best situations for doing so (other than against combo, obviously).

Prior to these changes, I was quite happy with Damnation, which complemented Shriekmaw and Deed quite nicely. Iím just as happy with the current removal suite, however, and feel that itís more versatile overall.

After seven more pages of evolution, I think that the deck desperately needs a new primeróIíll get to work on that once schoolís out (another week and a bit).

Now, to address specific concerns:



What's the whole deal with Gigapede? Why do you need another discard outlet when your first Intuition should almost always include Loam and Coliseum? The deck doesn't need a self recurring beater when it has Genesis... and if you lose your Genesis, you still have better (read: more efficient) beaters to finish the job.


I know that youíve agreed to disagree, and so I wonít push the point. To be honest, however, Iíve played (literally) hundreds of games with this deck, and Gigapede is the real all-star: he fulfills two vital roles, and complements the deckís strategy to a tee. There really is no reason not to run a single copy, even in the main deck. Gigapede rockets up your inevitability, and forces massive card disadvantage on your opponentís part in an effort to deal with him. This is probably largely a function of my build and my playstyle, but Gigapede swings for the win more often than ĎTog, Tarmogoyf, or anything else. Anyway, Iíll let it go at that. There comes a point where we arenít really adding anything substantive any more.

I did, however, want to point something out: my first Intuition is seldom for Loam and Coliseum, but rather for Genesis and two other, situational cards (usually Wonder and Gigapede, but it obviously depends on the board, your hand, etc.). This might reflect a difference in our playstyles or our decks, but my first Intuition is usually for something that affects the game-state immediately, rather than card-advantage. This is simply because the first Intuition will likely be cast relatively early on in the game, when you have a more finite pool of mana to work with and when card advantage is less important.
Consequently, as I mentioned earlier, I usually opt for the Wonder/Genesis/Gigapede trio, but the important part (early on) is really just Genesisóunless the board state says otherwise, of course. This trio does two things: it sets up your mid- and late-games (Genesis recursion--usually of Mongeese or ĎGoyfs), and it allows you to begin punching damage through immediately. Loam/Coliseum/whatever canít usually do that; one exception, however, might be Loam/Coliseum/Wonder or Genesis. Thatís actually a pretty hot move (since you discard Wonder and/or Genesis to Coliseum), but I find that itís far more dependent on the game state than my trusty Wonder/Genesis/Gigapede. That is to say, it requires relatively little pressure on the opposing board, since you need to use a land drop and two manaóin other words, three mana--to achieve a very similar effect with arguably lesser long-term benefits.

Most often, my Intuition piles look like this (bear in mind that Iím not running Wasteland any more--at least not for the time being):

#1: Genesis/Wonder/Gigapede

#2: Eternal Witness/Pernicious Deed/Shriekmaw
OR
#2.5: Loam/Coliseum/Psychatog

#3: Triple FoW, Triple-Deed, Triple-Death, etc.


There is a problem with that list, however: it canít possibly reflect the game-state, and fetching out proper Intuition targets is what makes or breaks games. Generally speaking, with a positive board position but no discard outlet, #1 is what I go for because it sets me up for whatís to come, gives me the possibility of controlling the board, and allows me to punch through a few times before I have to hang back on the defensive. But, as you well know, itís hardly set in stone: if the game-state is slightly unfavourable, I often forgo Wonder at first and toss in Shriekmaw instead. If I have a discard outlet, Gigapede is less useful very early on, so sometimes heíll get replaced with whateverís necessary at the time (Witness or Shriekmaw, probably). And so on.

Youíre the Tog player, so Iíll defer to your expertise in that field, but I donít usually feel comfortable with casting Intuition for Psychatog, especially when so many other creatures can seal the deal. Now that Iím running three again, I tend to draw into them, so itís all well and good (but that also means I donít want to Intuition into them). Being able to recycle Loam through Coliseum and Brainstorm to feed the Psychatog is definitely ridiculous, but with only one Loam, I seldom feel like using up an Intuition on those tools before the early late-game or late mid-game.

Occasionally, I fetch out Loam/Coliseum/Genesis. Usually, this is when I expect my lands to get zonked, however. This is because the Loam/Coliseum engine, while extremely powerful, chews up three mana (and a land drop) at a time, which is really rough until you hit at least five mana.

Now, since adding Veteran Explorer, the deckís pace has changed somewhat, making the early Loam/Coliseum engine much more feasible. Still, fetching it out remains very situational, and Iím a cautious player: I try to plan more for the future, and my Intuition targets usually reflect that.

Come to think of it, a whole primer could be written on Intuition targets. =/



I also don't understand some other concepts. First of all, why does this deck necessarily want to play into the late game? It's tempo-oriented like Threshold just as much as it is control-oriented like Landstill.

It doesnít necessarily, youíre right. Rather, what it wants to do is force other decks to play a style of game with which theyíre not comfortable. Accordingly, you want to force control into early- and mid-game defence, and aggro and aggro-control into late-game defence. The deck is pretty good at competing in all ranges of the game, so it wants to take its opponents to task in regions of the game where it is clearly better. Accordingly, my mantra is usually just to play like you would play Threshold, and remember that you can do more things as the game goes on.



Secondly, why was Psychatog considered a worse option than Mongrel? Not only does his being blue and black make him easier to cast through cards like Blood Moon, he ups the blue spell count for Force of Will... and neither of those two things I just said are as important as him being a finisher. When the games do drag out and you finally drop a Tog, you're gonna win next turn unless your opponent has an answer to him (like StP). Tog in itself is a major reason why this deck is so strong... the deck can go from merely stabalizing with Deed or Goyf sitting back as a blocker and then out of nowhere drop a Tog and win the following turn. Maybe I play the deck differently but I know that my matchups against Goblins, for example, is greatly improved when I stabilize on defense and then drop a Tog and swing once for lethal.

A few reasons (written prior to my changes, but they apply nonetheless):

1.) Tog is HARDER to cast under Blood Moon than Wild Mongrel. I donít understand why you said ďeasierĒ. In any case, that was not a determining factor in my choice.
2.) The deck is already chock-full of finishers: Tarmogoyf, Genesis, Gigapede, and Psychatog. One more Psychatog will not make a huge difference, but it will change the way that the deck needs to be played, and itís not currently constructed to maximize that methodology. A long game will be won by recursion just as much as a Psychatog swing, so why weaken the one to strengthen the other?
3.) The long-game is already strong. The early game, however, is weaker, and Mongrel goes a long way to shoring up that weakness. This is why I advocate cutting into ĎTog before the three Mongrels: the Mongrels are what get you through to the point where you can actually use ĎTog. Theyíre excellent defensive creatures, and strong attackers to boot. They punch through more damage on un-pumped swings than ĎTog can, and thatís a big part of why I have fewer ĎTogs: the Mongrels set the game such that even a lowly Mongoose or Shriekmaw can finish the job. Youíre right that, in the late-game--or even the mid-gameóIíd prefer to drop a ĎTog. In the first six turns that I take (12 game-turns), however, Iíd prefer to drop a Mongrel.

Does this mean that Iíve struck the appropriate balance? Not at all. I think that the best balance was 3 Mongrels and 2 ĎTogs; the only problem is that I traded out the ĎTog for manabase stability, so Iím as yet unsure on how to reintroduce him.

Now, Iíve since gone to 3 Togs and 0 Mongrels. In large part, this is in anticipation of a metagame shift, and even then itís probably not the best balance. Itís working out quite well in conjunction with the other changes, however, with no detrimental effect on the prior matchup structure (this, I think, is thanks to the change in removal as much as anything). The deck has always run pretty well without the Mongrels, but it works better now. I still want to include them for safety and redundancy, but that doesnít seem possible at the moment. At least the combo matchup is markedly better. :smile:



DTB Forum in mtg is:

MUC
Landstill
Stax
Rock
Faerie Stompy
Aggro Loam
UGr Threshold
Vial Goblins
Deadguy
UGw Threshold
UGb Threshold
RGb Survival

This metagame looks prime for DAT Thresh... why isn't it top 8'ing?

Simple: lack of players and lack of interest. Why THAT is the case, however, beats me: probably because Iíve been involved in its design. :tongue: I would imagine that the cost of the deck is off-putting, especially given its weakness to combo. Other than that... couldnít tell you. A few similar versions have cropped up the world over, and the CANGD contest had three decks that were nearly identical, but for some reason the will to pick up the deck just doesnít seem to be there.


On Daze: With Veteran Explorers, I feel much more confident playing Daze. Whether or not to play it in the main is another question. Even more difficult is the question of what it would/should replace. Personally, my inclination would be just to SB Sudden Death and MD Daze in a combo-heavy(ier) environment. For my own metagame and for MWS, however, I think that weíre better off starting with Sudden Death. If youíre not running VE, then there are obvious slots open there. I really, really like VE, however. But yeah. Iíve come around to your point of view on this issue, Hanni.

On the issue of a generic sideboard: Iíve said it a few times already, but Iíve changed the deck in anticipation of Shadowmoorís release. Consequently, some changes might just be unnecessary--weíll see.
What I think is absolutely necessary:

1.) Some form of alternative removal (to get rid of Needles, Dreadnoughts, and Goblin tokens) to complement Deed: EE or C/P are good bets here. I favour C/P because it canít be hit by Needle, and because it has a wider range. Itís possible to ignore Needle entirely--few decks run very many nowadays--but Dreadnought and tokens canít be ignored. Iíve come around to thinking that Krosan Grip can also work in these slots so long as you have enough disruption to deal with EtW tokens. That means Stifle and Daze on top of FoW, and/or Duress/Therapies. For the internet metagame, Krosan Grip might actually be the better call, simply because I keep on running into Dreadnought decks, and they have more counter-power than you do (especially since Stifle neuters Deed and EE).
2.) Some form of graveyard hate is imperative. You donít need to bring it in against Threshold, but you do need it against Loam-based decks, Hulk-combo, Breakfast, and Ichorid. This means either Extirpate (I see more Loam than the others, and itís helpful in all sorts of matchups--including Burn), or Leyline of the Void.
3.) Stifle. You wonít survive combo without it.

The rest, to my mind, are completely open slots. Given my own metagame and my anticipation of SwanThresh, Iíve opted for Daze and the last Sudden Death.



Jak: Glad you enjoy the deck, and have had success with it. Iím still not sold on Counterbalance, however. I have no doubt that it improves the combo matchup, however. Keep posting your results--I might become convinced, eventually. Not that I think so. :wink:

In all the situations that I can think of except combo, I think I would prefer to have an active Deed on the table. Now, I realise that weíre not talking of excluding Deed in favour of Counterbalance, but running both seems to take a fair bit of steam from out of the deck, since both are functionally very similar. Getting a Deed + Counterbalance softlock also doesnít seem all that impressive to me (mostly, again, due to the lack of synergy). My main concern here is that theyíre really both just achieving the same kind of board control, only one (Deed) is more versatile than the other.


My question for the month:

Is Veteran Explorer worth running? He gives the deck a great boost, and goes a long way to fixing mana issues (and allowing you to keep one-land hands), but is he any more useful than added disruption (e.g. MD Daze or Cabal Therapy) would be? Iíve grown quite fond of the guy, which means that Iím now thoroughly biased and could use some input. Not just paper-based input, but testing-based input.

Hanni
04-20-2008, 06:19 PM
When you grab Loam/Coliseum/Genesis, you don't have to keep using Coliseum every turn. You can just do it once to get Genesis in the yard and then use Loam once afterwards to ensure that you have land drops for the next several turns. The only time it's a good idea to utilize Coliseum every turn is once you have the mana available and need to dig for a specific answer card (like Deed). Coliseum is used initially to get Genesis/Wonder in the yard... but if the game goes late, vs a matchup like Landstill for example, it is extremely strong at generating card advantage. The biggest part of my first Intuition is that it gets the Genesis engine in place much like your Intuition... but I also get an additional engine(s) in Loam and Coliseum. I can see how Gigapede gets Genesis in the yard faster, since it doesn't require the 1GU + landdrop to get it put in there... but you are still getting additional effects from the mana paid (land drops for the next turn, additional cards in hand, extra cards in the graveyard, etc).

The biggest reason I grab Loam/Coliseum/Genesis is because I need the land drops Loam gives me to utilize Genesis properly. Probably the biggest reason why grabbing Loam initially isn't as much of an issue for you as it is for me is the fact that I'm not running Veteran Explorer and you are. My decklist runs 19 lands... in order for me to get consistent land drops past 3, I utilize Loam.


My question for the month:

Is Veteran Explorer worth running? He gives the deck a great boost, and goes a long way to fixing mana issues (and allowing you to keep one-land hands), but is he any more useful than added disruption (e.g. MD Daze or Cabal Therapy) would be? I’ve grown quite fond of the guy, which means that I’m now thoroughly biased and could use some input. Not just paper-based input, but testing-based input.

It really depends. I play the deck like Thresh... sometimes, I don't need to access the engines. When I do need the engine(s), I still play the deck like Thresh until I can get my engine(s) online. When I'm in Thresh mode, I don't need an abundance of lands that much. I also have more control in Daze and Cabal Therapy, which buys me time to get to the land count I need to utilize the engine(s)... and again, I grab Loam with my 1st Intuition as well.

Against certain matchups, land boosting into the engine(s) is going to be better. Against other certain matchups, the extra disruption pieces are going to be better. This makes it hard to gauge which is the better configuration for the deck. Additionally, playstyle differences are going to affect deck design.

As a long time aggro/control player, I prefer the protection that MD Daze and Cabal Therapy offers me over the acceleration that Veteran's Explorer gives. I'd honestly feel naked playing the deck with just FoW (and Deed).

Pelikanudo
05-12-2008, 10:45 AM
Hello Goswairenflun
If you see the meta of legacy We can divide the kind of decks in 4 main kind:
1)Vintagedecks adapted to legacy
2)Extended decks adapted to legacy
3)Old Extended decks adapted to legacy
4)Old vintage decks adapted to legacy

Sometime ago there were some builds of Gush-A-Tog decks If you remember of Old Extended decks. This deck Ive been trying with Really good results is an adaptation of this Amazizin archetype:
//The creatures: Is supposed the deck had 3Togs 4meddlin mage 4Quirion
//dryad
3Togs
4Quirion dryad //Im sorry but i really prefer than tarmo you all boyss will kill
//me but Im in ritgh when I say that Tarmo will never ever will be so big as
//Dryad :)
4 dark confidant // because of large amount of Toolbox i preferr tahn mage
//and sustitutes gush advantage in part with FathomS.
//The spells:
4 brainstorm //12 cantrips of 1 mana are the ideal I think theyre the bests for
//this build weīll get always the correct card
4 sleigth of hand
4 ponder
2 thoutseize
2 swords to plowshares // I didnt like swords I really didnt need it trust me
//better in SB
2 cunnin wish //to good to not to put it in berserk really shines with both
//dryad and tog
2 Fathom Seer // 6 slots to get full advantage of cards
4 mox diamond
4 dazes
4 FoW
//17lands
4 flooded
4polluted
1 tundra
2 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 island
1 cephalid col
2 city of brass // i didnt really remember is I had this main I think so
//side :1berserk 1misdi some stifles , armageddon more swords extirpate 4 plagues...

Pelikanudo
05-13-2008, 09:39 AM
Hello again the deck i posted before is a little different from yours, i'll post an improved version of yours:
The creatures:
4 tarmogoyf
3 psychatog
4 Nimble Moongose

The spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of will
4 swords to plowshares
4 predict
3 counterspell
4 serum visions

The lands:
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
3 tundra
3 tropical
3 underground sea
1 island

I've made the base in order to not to expect somebody playing needle in base because of the varity of decks in legacy. anyway our side will solve this problem sidin in krosan or echoin truth.
I like the predict draw engine althougth accumulated is good too.
The main problem of this deck are the stifle-to-my-fetch or the wasteland-to-my-nonbasic-land thats why i prefer the moxdiamond version.

Respect to your developing deck of TarmoTog I see the So-Good-Pernis not so good because of the number of cheap creatures you play :not sinergistic and If yours is an agro deck please move main these dazes.
The verduran explorer seems to be a good card but I really dont find the sinergy with the rest of deck, I mean its not good playin dazes main, versus Solidarity not at all , versus landstill neither(depends on number of basic lands), versus Gobbos neither, etc, etc Althought you re proud of casting a genesis on 3rd turn°°
I think you have to choose between dazes and verduran .I personally perfer dazes

midnightAce
05-13-2008, 11:54 PM
@Goaswerfraiejen

I can understand the interaction between the Veterans and turboing out Deeds to clear the board. My problem with the Veteran is that
a) it's a symmetrical effect, and
b) you don't really have a way of sacrificing it. (I don't consider aiming the deck's removal spells at the Veteran to be a good way of saccing it)

I prefer Daze in those slots as well... simply because short of Dragon Stompy, who can play around Daze w/ SSG, all the other decks will either delay themselves for a turn, or play around it very carefully. If you can keep the early threats off the tables, then you can wait a bit longer on blowing the Deed, and milk a bit more advantage out of it. (This point becomes moot, however, in game 2 and 3, when Grip constantly affects your decision of Deed blowing.)

@Dryad vs. Goyf

While it's true that the first Dryad may very well be a lot bigger than the Goyf, over the long run, Goyf will almost always come out superior than the Dryad. Consider turn 6+, you just cleared the board w/ Deeds, you've most likely spent quite a bit of resources keeping alive and stabilizing, you might very well only have 1-2 cards left in your hand. Top deck Goyf coming down with a Counter backup means 4-5 turn clock, where as top deck Dryad coming down means 7-10 turn clock. That's a very significant difference and should be considered carefully.

Pelikanudo
05-14-2008, 09:47 AM
@Goaswerfraiejen
@Dryad vs. Goyf

While it's true that the first Dryad may very well be a lot bigger than the Goyf, over the long run, Goyf will almost always come out superior than the Dryad. Consider turn 6+, you just cleared the board w/ Deeds, you've most likely spent quite a bit of resources keeping alive and stabilizing, you might very well only have 1-2 cards left in your hand. Top deck Goyf coming down with a Counter backup means 4-5 turn clock, where as top deck Dryad coming down means 7-10 turn clock. That's a very significant difference and should be considered carefully.

In the deck with mox diamond Dryad is superior than tarmogoyf the reason is moreless the reason why in type 1 we prefer dryad : i mean you re ritgh when you say that a top deck to a tarmogoyf is better( it will be greater on board in late game) but except the 4 dryads THE REST of the deck will make dryad bigger .playing this deck I ve never had a dryad with less power than 6/6 . but if we cast a dryad on first turn and it does not die , for sure will win the game , it easily becomes a scary 12/12 for instance.
The deck is not a common tresshold, it is an adapted Gush-A-Tog from Old Extended season We don't want main those little moongoose We want Tog or Dryad (Confi and Fathom Seer are the substitutes of Gush).

Pelikanudo
05-14-2008, 02:02 PM
In the thread of TarmoTog Control Deck Some ideas have came to my mind :
Our goal is to get a Letal Tog or a Letal Tarmogoyf: Therefore:
a) to get a letal Tog the only thing we have to do is draw and draw
b) to get a letal Tarmogoyf(difficult) it MUST be reinforced by berserk AND it must become a 8/9 as maximus Power this goal isnot difficult too get: We need: sorcery,instant,enchantment,creature,artifact,tribal,Planeswalker and land.

Tribal good cards: Lignify, Faery trickery,bitterblossom,nameless inversion.
Planewalkers goods: Garruk and no more.

Well boys Having this in mind i propose this deck:

3 Psychatogs
4 Tarmogoyf

3 cunnin wish // 3 as minimus number
4 brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Pernicious Deed // 3 as minimus number
1 lignify //these are 2 good removal
1 nameless inversion //this one makes our boys even stronger
1 garruk //the less worst of all and another win cond (it has even synergy
//with pernicious :laugh:)
1 engineered explosives //i like this as artifact option and we can now put
//the academy ruins engine in
1 life from the loam
3 Thougth seize
3 spellsnare
3 intuition
2 gifts ungiven //gifts in here are really good

Lands:
4 tropical
4 Underground sea
4 polluted
2 Flooded Strand
2 lonely sandbar
1 cephalid coliseum
1 cabal pit
1 academy ruins
3 islands
1 sawmp

//Cards to put in or weīll miss: Masticore, stromgald volraths, Darkblst,vedalken shackless, ghastly demmise, counterspell,wasteland

Hanni
05-17-2008, 02:04 AM
Removing Intuition and Genesis is an injustice to this archtype. If you do that, you're much better off playing U/G/b Thresh.

xsockmonkeyx
05-17-2008, 03:36 AM
What are you referring to, Hanni? The list above your post has 3 Intuition.

Hanni
05-17-2008, 06:05 PM
I was referring to this:


3Togs
4Quirion dryad //Im sorry but i really prefer than tarmo you all boyss will kill
//me but Im in ritgh when I say that Tarmo will never ever will be so big as
//Dryad :)
4 dark confidant // because of large amount of Toolbox i preferr tahn mage
//and sustitutes gush advantage in part with FathomS.
//The spells:
4 brainstorm //12 cantrips of 1 mana are the ideal I think theyre the bests for
//this build weīll get always the correct card
4 sleigth of hand
4 ponder
2 thoutseize
2 swords to plowshares // I didnt like swords I really didnt need it trust me
//better in SB
2 cunnin wish //to good to not to put it in berserk really shines with both
//dryad and tog
2 Fathom Seer // 6 slots to get full advantage of cards
4 mox diamond
4 dazes
4 FoW
//17lands
4 flooded
4polluted
1 tundra
2 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 island
1 cephalid col
2 city of brass //

...and this:


4 tarmogoyf
3 psychatog
4 Nimble Moongose

The spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of will
4 swords to plowshares
4 predict
3 counterspell
4 serum visions

The lands:
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
3 tundra
3 tropical
3 underground sea
1 island


...and the decklist in the post above is missing Genesis. So my previous statement would still be valid anyway.

Pelikanudo
05-19-2008, 09:49 AM
3 Psychatogs
4 Tarmogoyf

3 cunnin wish // 3 as minimus number
4 brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Pernicious Deed // 3 as minimus number
1 lignify //these are 2 good removal
1 nameless inversion //this one makes our boys even stronger
1 garruk //the less worst of all and another win cond (it has even synergy
//with pernicious :laugh:)
1 engineered explosives //i like this as artifact option and we can now put
//the academy ruins engine in
1 life from the loam
3 Thougth seize
3 spellsnare
3 intuition
2 gifts ungiven //gifts in here are really good

Lands:
4 tropical
4 Underground sea
4 polluted
2 Flooded Strand
2 lonely sandbar
1 cephalid coliseum
1 cabal pit
1 academy ruins
3 islands
1 sawmp

//Cards to put in or weīll miss: Masticore, stromgald volraths, Darkblst,vedalken shackless, ghastly demmise, counterspell,wasteland, maybe genesis-Eternal engine..


Well about this archetype and the before ones this is more a control oriented deck. The main goal of this archetype is to get a letal tog or a letal or at least scary 8/9 tarmogoyf. therefore intuition can have as main slot more logic. this is not an aggro deck althouth i really miss counterspell as a control card

Hanni
05-21-2008, 02:00 AM
I haven't playtested in a while, but the last time I did, I found MD Cabal Therapy to be lacking in certain matchups. Basically, it's going to be extremely strong against midrange and lategame decks where it can be fully utilized... but it is going to be subpar against decks where you need to hit something the first time you cast it (like turn 1). Examples of where it is lackluster is against combo decks in general (which was the main purpose of its inclusion originally) and against Dreadnought decks specifically (since I seem to face them alot on MWS).

Basically, I think running MD Thoughtseizes in place of MD Cabal Therapies would be much better, giving the deck a better overall game 1 against more decks in the metagame, especially when the metagame is random.

HOWEVER, Cabal Therapy is far too strong for me to get rid of entirely.

So basically, I'm dropping 3 Stifles from my sideboard to fit in 3 Cabal Therapies. The reasoning here is, Cabal Therapy is still coming in against most of the decks where Stifle would have come in, except Therapy is going to be stronger against more decks, IMO.

I really like Therapy in games 2 and 3 when I know what the opponent is playing. It's extremely strong vs Landstill, since you know they will have cards in hand lategame and you can Therapy away StP to swing with a lethal Tog, etc. It's also strong vs Burn, which is a bad matchup. It's still going to be good against combo, especially when paired with the 3 MD Thoughtseizes... for example: in combination with Thoughtseize, it's not impossible to completely rip the opponent's hand apart for GBB (the G is the cost of Mongoose). And of course, it has a rediculous amount of synergy with the deck as a whole... whether it be sac'ing a creature before popping Deed, grabbing 3 Therapies with Intuition, dredging away a Therapy, etc.

Here's the current list I'm playing w/ sideboard:

U/G/b DAT Thresh (or TAT if you'd prefer, Thresh-a-Tog)

Lands (19)
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

Creatures (15)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Psychatog
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
3 Shriekmaw

Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard (15)
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Gigapede

I have been considering Counterbalance for some time but have ultimately decided against it. Maindeck, the deck already has enough mid-late game power with Deed and Intuition (for engine cards). Sideboard, it just requires too many slots to fit CounterTop... and actually, I've been very satisified with the current sideboard.

I highly recommend anyone interested in this archtype to try this list. Try it now for only 3 easy payments of $19.99. If within 30 days you aren't satisfied, you can return the list at no cost. Simply mail it back and I'll even pay for the shipping and handling.

Proz0r
05-21-2008, 02:34 AM
Hanni, the list looks pretty good. However, I think Dark Confidant is too good not to play. I would play him over Nimble Mongoose.

Also, how about moving one EE to the maindeck along with an Academy Ruins? Intuition for EE, Ruins and Loam can be very strong.

Is the Wonder really necessary?

chokin
05-21-2008, 02:55 AM
Hanni, the list looks pretty good. However, I think Dark Confidant is too good not to play. I would play him over Nimble Mongoose.

Also, how about moving one EE to the maindeck along with an Academy Ruins? Intuition for EE, Ruins and Loam can be very strong.

Is the Wonder really necessary?

Wonder is wonderful. Hits the yard to throw angry Goyfs, Geese, Togs and Terrors over the sad little army your opponent tried throwing together. A few flying fatties in the face is nothing your opponent is going to be pleased about.

Hanni's list looks good. Adding that Ruins, EE, and other random trinkets(Crypt or Needle) might do nicely. Also, I like using a single Gifts in place of Intuition #4 in case of Extirpate. It's not as broken as it was back in Kamigawa T2, but it can create some awesome piles.

Any room for Tombstalker? Highly unlikely an opponent will Deeds him, hard to burn down, and avoids Smother and Terror. Plus with LftL dredges and Intuition or Gifts, he's gonna come down cheap pretty often. Yeah, he takes away from Tog, but he only needs to be fueled once, has evasion and a big butt on top of previously stated stuff.

Hanni
05-21-2008, 03:51 AM
However, I think Dark Confidant is too good not to play. I would play him over Nimble Mongoose.


Dark Confidant is actually pretty bad in here.

The deck has 8 cards with a cmc of 5, 1 card with a cmc of 4, and 9 cards with a cmc of 3. These mana costs themselves restric the usefulness of Confidant.

Even if the average cmc were lower, this deck has more than enough card advantage with Genesis, Loam/Coliseum, and Deed.

Another other big criticism with Confidant is that this deck does not support him as aggro. Without equipment, lots of spot removal, or Mother of Runes, he's almost never going to be put into the red zone.

Dark Confidant was amazing in Fish because he had Mother of Runes and Jitte to support him as aggro and the deck had a very low average cmc. Not only that, but the deck had no other means of card advantage. All of the reasons he was good there are lacking in this deck. Therefore, I think he is horrible here.

Now... if you wanted to build a Gro-a-Tog deck, like something similar to what Bardo was working on, then I would definitely advocate Dark Confidant. Bardo's decklist had Jitte and it also had a very low cmc. You can find his decklist on page 2 of this thread, or you can click on this link: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=159628&postcount=24.

Additionally, Nimble Mongoose is too good not to run in my decklist. The deck easily supports his Threshold requirements and G for a 3/3 with Shroud has always been amazing. It also works wonders for the manacurve with Genesis. Mongoose stops 1st Lackey but it also powers out the beats vs combo, control, and much more. My decklist is like a blend between Threshold and Landstill... and Mongoose is a quintessential part of that Threshold style gameplan.


Also, how about moving one EE to the maindeck along with an Academy Ruins? Intuition for EE, Ruins and Loam can be very strong.


I have tried this before. You can see the decklist and explanation back on page 2 of this thread, or by clicking this link: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=162654&postcount=35. It wasn't bad... but I just didn't find it necessary. The deck has recurrable creature removal with Genesis + Shriekmaw. Now I know that Shriekmaw doesn't answer artifacts/enchantments, and I know that it doesn't sweep the board... but the deck shouldn't need recurrable EE. It's also slow and doesn't provide card advantage (unless the EE is hitting multiple targets).

The other big problem is that you're almost never going to want to grab anything other than Loam/Coliseum/Genesis with the first Intuition... at least with my decklist. With 1 EE and 1 Academy Ruins, you pretty much have to use Intuition for them to see them... with Shriekmaw, you should be able to see one without using Intuition since my list has 3 (and again, the first Intuition should be grabbing Genesis).

I decided a while ago that I wanted to keep the decks toolbox options to the bare minimum to maximize the decks consistency. If you'd like to fit Ruins/EE into the maindeck, you're more than welcome to... you could easily cut 1 Wasteland and 1 Shriekmaw/Deed to fit them if you'd like the additional toolbox.


Is the Wonder really necessary?

I like the reply the previous poster gave:

Wonder is wonderful. Hits the yard to throw angry Goyfs, Geese, Togs and Terrors over the sad little army your opponent tried throwing together. A few flying fatties in the face is nothing your opponent is going to be pleased about.

---


Adding that Ruins, EE, and other random trinkets(Crypt or Needle) might do nicely.

Stretching out the toolbox may give the deck more outs to more situations but it is going to lower the overall consistency of the deck. I addressed this back several pages ago. If players would like more toolbox options, I won't disapprove... but do understand that I've already playtested that route and decided it weakened the deck overall.


Also, I like using a single Gifts in place of Intuition #4 in case of Extirpate.

Extirpate on Intuition is irrelevant. If they are wasting it on Intuition then they aren't wasting it on an actual engine card, which still leaves you with possible outs. Additionally, you really only need to cast Intuition once, if any at all (sometimes you don't need the engines)... and unless they discard your Intuition first and then they Extirpate it, it's not even going to be a target for them. If you'd like to do a 3/1 split, that's fine... I mean, this does dodge other hate like Meddling Mage as well... just keep in mind that Gifts is subpar in comparison to Intuition in this deck.


Any room for Tombstalker? Highly unlikely an opponent will Deeds him, hard to burn down, and avoids Smother and Terror. Plus with LftL dredges and Intuition or Gifts, he's gonna come down cheap pretty often. Yeah, he takes away from Tog, but he only needs to be fueled once, has evasion and a big butt on top of previously stated stuff.

Tombstalker was considered before. This deck only needs 1 finisher if Mongoose and Goyf cannot go the distance. I chose to go with Tog for various reasons. If you want to run Tombstalker, it would replace Tog. This is not to say that doing so is a bad idea... but it does take the deck in a different direction. The deck already has the option of flying with Wonder and the deck already has a large body with Goyf which is often a 5/6. Again, this is not to say that Tombstalker is a bad idea. Mostly though, I just like the 1 kill finishes that Tog can provide outta nowhere. That, and Tog also ups my blue count for FoW.

Goaswerfraiejen
06-20-2008, 04:19 AM
Excellent post, Hanni. Mad props.


In the last little while, I've been testing a couple of changes to the decklist. The main change is that I've been testing Werebear in Veteran Explorer's slot. I like Werebear a lot. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if it really does what I need VE to do. Werebear is excellent for increasing pressure, which is obviously important in today's metagame. With the rising popularity of The Fear (why is it called that anyway? In any case, it's almost a mirror match in many ways) early aggression is important for this build of Tarmo/Dredge-A-Tog. On the other hand, Werebear is helping matchups that don't necessarily need all the help (help is great, but mana issues throw entire matchups). I need help here, because I'm not sure if the tradeoff is worth it or not. I'll draw up a list of pros and cons for each come morning.


I've also been testing Grave-Shell Scarab in my empty sideboard slot, partly as a response to The Fear and Vedalken Shackles (I know, I know, a feeble attempt), and partly as another recurring beatstick with (small) secondary applications. A fourth Sudden Death is unnecessary (especially since Brynn Argoll Thresh doesn't seem to have taken off), and I tried Kitchen Finks but wasn't all that impressed. Perhaps another Gigapede is in order? Aethersnipe? Or perhaps Wasteland is the better route here. I really don't know, and your input would be greatly appreciated.


I've also been doing some testing against The Fear, and will be working the matchup analysis into the new primer (which will be ready one day. Eventually. It's rather long.)


Oh, one last thing--I've been using the Loam/Coliseum/Genesis pile more often now. Makes a huge difference with more Psychatogs; you were right, Hanni. Genesis/Wonder (or Shriekmaw)/Gigapede is still my preferred pile, but it's not always necessary or even indicated.

Vacrix
06-21-2008, 10:35 PM
i think that since you have the intuition/genesis engine you should consider using the following (MD or SB up to you):

Plague Spitter.
Basically, ridiculous against alot of different aggro decks. i play black aggro occasionally and let me tell you even if it gets removed it still works which is the beauty of it (with the exception of StP). i have found that it clears the majority of the board against goblins, ripps three new assholes for elves, deals with EtW quite nicely. the only reason why you wouldnt run it is if it kills too many of your own creatures. if your build is running veteran explorer than you want it to die and you can just hold your mongeese? until you hit a 7 card grave. and also you can keep recuring it with genesis against aggro once you stablize with it the first time. it mite seem a little bit slow, but with veteran explorer in the deck now, it mite speed up your game enough to make it quite relevant for aggro.

Phyrexian Negator.
unless i misread, you have a little trouble against the control(ish) matchups. if thresh/landstill/fish matchup isnt at least variable than this mite be a nice side in. usually in these match ups, if u see read then obviously dont side in, but the most you will see is StP which doesnt hurt you too much. looking at things from a different perspective, negator is bascially a tarmogoyf with 1 less toughness for 1 more mana, but its a stronger creature faster (tarmogoyf comes down a turn earlier but is a 3/4 for a couple turns before its as big, if not bigger than negator), and its very very intimidating. and you have the black to support it cause its just B, not BB so consider it.

Braids, Cabal Minion.
ya maybe sounds a little bit ridiculous, but once against, in certain match ups this could be ridiculous, especially with genesis recursion. it keeps your opponent off mana against decks with little creatures like control/combo match ups. so each player is sacing lands each turn but you run loam, which you can intuition for like, your targets for intiution would be: loam, braids, genesis. i guess. but ya, maybe deserves some testing.

Intuition is an extremely powerful resource. Here are a couple different ideas on how you could abuse it even more than you already are:

living wish/genesis/eternal witness
now it would work like this. you would have to cut out your board to fit this in alil bit. not tool box like your thinking tho, unless you want to. you would put the dark depths/aether snap combo in the board. and then just keep playing witness to return living wish. if they pick genesis it gets tricky but you can figure it out im sure. if witness, play pick up the wish, block, cycle it back to your hand and do it again. if they pick wish, search for a witness in the board to pick up the wish. the blocking with the witness should stop them for long enough for you to pull this off. it may be unnecessary with deed and beaters but idk how your aggro match up is all around, so consider it.

volrath's stronghold/life from the loam/shriekmaw -- recuring removal could be nice eh? its pretty self explanatory but ya. it mite be a little bit slow but hey with huge fat blockers to protect you quite early in the game it mite be enough to create a kind of standstill where nobody is attacking and your opponent is basically waiting for removal. and you can take advantage of that like this. well maybe that isnt the best reason because you could just search for deed but once against, just my thoughts.

hermit druid/psychatog/genesis
can set up some completely ridiculous psychatog kills. and thats about it. if you wanted you could cut out your deck to fit in some ridiculous way to abuse having the whole library in the grave by not running basics but ya thats unlikely.
reins of power/eternal witness/eternal witness

reins of power is pretty dam sick against combo. good against EtW. but once against deed is probably a better solution.

Just spent a bunch of time cleaning this up. The [Shift] key is not your enemy. - Bardo

THEchubbymuffin
06-22-2008, 02:54 AM
hermit druid/psychatog/genesis
can set up some completely ridiculous psychatog kills. and thats about it. if you wanted you could cut out your deck to fit in some ridiculous way to abuse having the whole library in the grave by not running basics but ya thats unlikely.
reins of power/eternal witness/eternal witness


Ya hermit druid is awesome! Thats why it's banned.

BreathWeapon
06-22-2008, 04:25 PM
Off topic, but recurring Deranged Hermit with Genesis would be sick, the picture of a horde of 2/2 flying squirrels would be priceless, and it's not that unreasonable if you guys are considering Psychatog and Gigapede as finishers.

Hanni
06-22-2008, 10:08 PM
@ Vacrix

Most of those options aren't really needed, as they are just redundant. Stronghold has merits in builds with Counterbalance but is just bad overall in this build. Eternal Witness isn't a bad option, but it's extremely slow and this deck isn't geared for the late late game. My version has no trouble with combo matchups to warrant Negator, where'd I'd much rather run Werebear or Quirion Dryad anyway. The Goblins matchup is pretty good as well, where I'd rather run Stifles or Blue Elemental Blasts in the board vs them instead of Plague Spitter.

Braids, Cabal Minion is a pretty good option, though I don't feel that it is supported well in this version. I think with Bitterblossoms and a few Stax pieces (like Tangle Wire), it could easily be strong. Just not in here.


Off topic, but recurring Deranged Hermit with Genesis would be sick, the picture of a horde of 2/2 flying squirrels would be priceless, and it's not that unreasonable if you guys are considering Psychatog and Gigapede as finishers.

Gigapede and Tog fill 2 different important niches. Gigapede can recur himself and Tog ends the game the next turn. Deranged Hermit recursion is extremely slow... 8cc per recur. That's not that attractive when you can pay 5cc for Gigapede or 6cc for Tog (w/ recur). Plus the tokens have some bad synergy with Deed, to boot.

Goaswerfraiejen
06-23-2008, 12:02 AM
I've got to agree with Hanni. My version doesn't really have trouble against control either--which is to say, it has no particular weakness to control decks. Control can beat the deck, which should be obvious. So can Threshold, for that matter. But the deck wins against these consistently enough that they aren't problematic in and of themselves.


As an extra recurring beatstick, the Scarab isn't bad. Unless something else gets printed soon, I think it's my preferred optional extra.


As far as Werebear goes, I'm more and more impressed. It means a slight change in playstyle (can't be as reckless with opening hands), but immunity to most mana shenanigans is a nice plus. Still, it doesn't help all that much versus Dragon Stompy, and even less versus Stax. I'm prepared to give up on Stax as pretty much an auto-loss, but losing consistency against Dragon Stompy irks me. In most other matchups, however, Werebear has thus far proven the stronger choice (surprise surprise), at least until hate comes in. At that point, VE is a little better. I'll keep playing with the bears to see how it goes, but I'm not ready to sub them in in VE's place just yet.

BreathWeapon
06-23-2008, 12:39 AM
I'm big on bears, one of the deck's problems is Daze keeps it off 3c for Intuition and Pernicious Deed, and bears off sets that.

georgjorge
06-26-2008, 05:27 PM
This Eventide spoiled card might be good for the deck...and replace the Pedes!

Worm Harvest
2{bg}{bg}{bg}
Sorcery
Put a 1/1 black and green Worm creature token into play for each land card in your graveyard.
Retrace (You may play this card from your graveyard by discarding a land card in addition to paying its other costs.)

Better synergy with Loam than Pede, and I think I'd prefer four or five 1/1 to a single 6/1. I just hate having to run Pede into those Fanatics, Mongeese or Isamarus...

Hanni
06-26-2008, 06:14 PM
The purpose of Gigapede is that he can recur himself over and over while also being untargetable. This makes him strong vs control, which is what he is intended for. Worm Harvest isn't bad but it doesn't compare to the power level of Gigapede for the intended purpose. Gigapede is also resilient to Deed.

Goaswerfraiejen
06-26-2008, 06:20 PM
This Eventide spoiled card might be good for the deck...and replace the Pedes!

Worm Harvest
2{bg}{bg}{bg}
Sorcery
Put a 1/1 black and green Worm creature token into play for each land card in your graveyard.
Retrace (You may play this card from your graveyard by discarding a land card in addition to paying its other costs.)

Better synergy with Loam than Pede, and I think I'd prefer four or five 1/1 to a single 6/1. I just hate having to run Pede into those Fanatics, Mongeese or Isamarus...


It's certainly a possibility, and worth toying around with. I do have some concerns, however:

1.) It would dilute some of the potency of Intuition piles. Gigapede is still very prominent in my piles, especially when they feature Wonder. It's an excellent alternative to 'Tog and Coliseum, which aren't always possible or even ideal.

2.) After the graveyard has been wiped clean, it's significantly less attractive than Gigapede.

3.) Tokens suck with Deed.


It might also need some re-tooling mana and loam-wise, since without Loam discarding a land card is a significant price until very late in the game. Nonetheless, I'm pretty excited about it. At first glance, it looks like it might be a better choice than the lone Grave-Shell Scarab I have kicking around in my sideboard, so I'll give it a start there and see what happens.



As far as running 'pede into things goes... if mine can't fly for some reason, I usually wait to let a Tarmogoyf run itself through on its pincers. Losing it to a Fanatic or Hound is generally a bad trade, I agree, but only because the decks running those creatures are very creature-heavy. Using it to take out a Mongoose, however, is an excellent trade in my opinion, since Threshold can seldom (if ever) recur its creatures, and it has a very creature-light base. Plus, you're bringing the Gigapede back most every turn, which creates tremendous pressue on the Threshold deck to find "answers," especially since its removal is invalidated.


Anyway, thanks for bringing the card up; I hadn't given it much thought before, and it certainly deserves some.

Hanni
06-26-2008, 08:45 PM
In my build, I've decided to go:

-1 Psychatog
+1 Gigapede

Considering ITF is getting pretty big, I felt this was a much better option. 2 different win conditions give me additional resilience to Extirpate, while Gigapede can often outpower Goyf and cannot be hit by StP or Shackles. 5cc also takes him out of EE range and it makes it alot harder to hit with Deed. Not only that, but he is extremely hard to hit with Counterbalance (vs opposing decks that run it). I'm probably still going to grab Loam/Coliseum/Gigapede, but now I also have the option for Gigapede/Wasteland/Loam in the games where that will matter.

(More info regarding these additional changes are in posts below this one.)

(-1 Tog, +1 Thoughtseize)
(-1 Shriemmaw, +1 Stinkweed Imp)

U/G/b Intuition Thresh

Lands (19)
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

Creatures (14)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Shriekmaw
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Gigapede
1 Wonder
1 Genesis

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard (15)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed

Cutting the Togs takes me down to 20 blue sources, which is still enough for FoW. Putting Gigapede and Stinkweed Imp in the maindeck free'd up sideboard slots so I added the 4th Extirpate, since Extirpate is really strong against the format right now, and the 4th Cabal Therapy, since it improves my burn matchup as well as other matchups.

-----------------------------------------

...and the new developmental list is:

U/G/b/r Anrgy Intuition Thresh

Lands (19)
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

Creatures (15)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Shriekmaw
1 Gigapede
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
1 Anger

Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard (15)
4 Extirpate
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Stinkweed Imp

Loam/Gigapede/Anger is a pretty strong alternate Intuition pile that is going to demolish certain matchups.

Turn 1 Brainstorm, Turn 2 Thoughtseize + Mongoose, Turn 3 Intuition, Turn 4 Loam + Coliseum (and activation) + Goyf (Inution grabbing Angry Giga), Turn 5 Gigapede.

Turn 3, 1 damage.
Turn 4, 8 damage.
Turn 5, 14 damage.

That's a turn 5 goldfish with Anger. Against combo, especially backed by FoW (and Daze, though that slows the goldfish down a turn), that's nuts. If you get a Thoughtseize and a FoW in there, you can race combo. That's nutty. Especially postboard, with Cabal Therapy's, I can see this vastly improving the burn matchup, which has been my worst matchup to date. Hasted beaters also sound strong against control decks... and the rest of the entire field? lol

I don't think cutting 1 Stinkweed Imp is appropriate but I think the 4th Thoughtseize should be non-negotiable since it is 1cc spot removal as well as removal for whatever. Games that start with a Thoughtseize on turn 1 or turn 2 are almost always good. Aside from dropping down to 19 blue sources (which I really don't want to go below 20), is Wonder even really needed anymore with the haste? Last time I checked, fat green hasty beaters don't really need flying to be devastating (and Wonder doesn't fit in the Angry Intuition pile).

So maybe -1 Wonder +1 Anger (instead of -1 Imp)? I really don't wanna go below 20 blue sources though...

Goaswerfraiejen
06-26-2008, 10:54 PM
Hanni, our lists keep getting closer and closer (at least until I try out some wacked out stuff, like VE). :smile:

I'm really glad you're enjoying that list, though, and are coming over to love Gigapede. He's just so stellar all-around, and ITF only helped that. I hope something similar gets printed soon, because I wouldn't mind running two.

One question for you, since you've probably done more testing with the card than I have: how's Thoughtseize been working out? More specifically, how much does it shore up the combo matchups, and what kind of impact has it had on other matchups? Without Brynn Argoll Thresh going insane as I feared, some of the changes that I pre-emptively made to my own list seem less necessary, despite remaining (in my opinion) quite good, and I'd like to pack in more MD disruption anyway.

Hanni
06-26-2008, 11:09 PM
Like I've said all along, I always felt naked with just FoW and Deed. Daze and Thoughtseize come in and change the dynamics of play. Thoughtseize is amazing at what it does... 1cc to remove any 1 card while you get to see the opponent's entire hand. The ability to see the opponent's hand is just so broken... especially when you run Tog. It's 1cc spot removal but at the same time it's Duress, so I'm sure you can figure out how good it is vs combo. Thoughtseize is just good all around... the only decks it isn't good against are those that don't have drawbacks from discard.

Goaswerfraiejen
06-29-2008, 03:20 AM
Like I've said all along, I always felt naked with just FoW and Deed. Daze and Thoughtseize come in and change the dynamics of play. Thoughtseize is amazing at what it does... 1cc to remove any 1 card while you get to see the opponent's entire hand. The ability to see the opponent's hand is just so broken... especially when you run Tog. It's 1cc spot removal but at the same time it's Duress, so I'm sure you can figure out how good it is vs combo. Thoughtseize is just good all around... the only decks it isn't good against are those that don't have drawbacks from discard.

Recently, I've been trying out a version that very nearly resembles the one you (Hanni) posted above with great success. You're right, and I think it's pretty much the way to go. Thoughtseize has the advantage of being pro-active, whereas Sudden Death was very reactive. And since Bryn Argoll Thresh isn't tearing up the format as I thought it would, I think that it's the better route to go due in large part to its improved combo matchup pre-board. I do still like having a single Witness kicking around, however.


I do have some concerns with the sideboard you posted, though.

*Is there any reason to run EE rather than Crime/Punishment? We can't recur EE with Academy Ruins, and EE can't hit man/artifact lands. To be fair, Punishment won't usually hit manlands either. Punishment has roughly the same mana requirement early on, but it has the added advantages of being able to hit higher casting costs more easily and dodging Counterbalance more effectively.

*Is Pithing Needle all that useful if we're already running Deed, Punishment/EE, and Krosan Grip? My own feeling is that it would only get in the way.


Also, a question: What do you find yourself using the Stinkweed Imp for the most? Extra removal, or massive dredging? Obviously, it's a good card for the deck because it can fill multiple roles; I'm just wondering which role you ask it to perform the most often.

Hanni
06-30-2008, 12:40 AM
Is there any reason to run EE rather than Crime/Punishment?

I just prefer Explosives because the mana costs can be split up over 2 turns, whereas with Crime/Punishment, you need it all up front. However, both cards have their pros and cons so it is a debatable choice.


Is Pithing Needle all that useful if we're already running Deed, Punishment/EE, and Krosan Grip? My own feeling is that it would only get in the way.


Pithing Needle is just one of those cards that answers some stuff that you'd rather not have to play against. I realize the disynergy with Deed, but the card does alot. It's 1 card that can shut down potentially 4 cards in the opponent's deck and it can be proactive as well as reactive.



Also, a question: What do you find yourself using the Stinkweed Imp for the most? Extra removal, or massive dredging?

Stinkweed Imp comes in for Tombstalker. To a lesser extent, it's also designed to answer Dark Confidant, Doran, and Nantuko Shade. It's also nice against Sutured Ghoul.

I don't really use it for the dredge... but the added bonus is nice.

---

I also want to say that I'm loving Gigapede and should have been running it before. Now, I still stand on alot of my criticisms against it, but it's just incredibly strong against Counterbalance and other control decks. I also like the fact that Loam/Wasteland/Gigapede is a really strong Intuition pile.

Muradin
07-18-2008, 11:04 AM
I actually like this deck and the way it plays out like T reshold with a nice lategame engine. So I tried it out and found it really strong, but I'd like to strengthen the T reshold aspect of the deck a bit.
I think that T reshold with 3 Daze only is not built very well and I would appreciate fitting a 4th Thoughtseize into the deck as well (not so important, though).
What should I cut for the 4th Daze and should a 4th Thoughtseize be played in general?

(Why does it write ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh in here btw?)

Hanni
07-27-2008, 02:43 PM
After playing with the new changes alot, I've found Psychatog underwhelming. Psychatog, before, was a two-of that I could possibly draw into if the game got far enough to just end the game right away. As a 1-of, it's become much more dependant on Intuition, where I prefer Gigapede over Psychatog for (almost) all situations. It's a much better 1-of, IMO, especially since it is an engine in itself if Genesis gets Extirpated or something.

However, I've been considering that Angry Tog might be the nuts, especially with Wonder. All it would take, really, is to just cut 1 land for 1 Volcanic Island and then cut 1 card for Anger. Genesis back Tog, Thoughtseize the opponent, swing for lethal that turn. Costs 7 mana and some prior setup too but that's still not a bad goldfish for a control deck. Plus, it can be broken up over several turns if need be (recur via Genesis, unable cast Tog yet).

However, this deck is not always a control deck and Mongoose + Goyf can goldfish faster than that.

That got me thinking... wouldn't Angry Gigapede be even better? I mean, you recur him and play him as a 6/1 haste. That's ball lightning status almost. Then if he dies, you recur him again and play him as another 6/1 with haste. His inability to actually be removed by the opponent without something like Extirpate is just sick with haste.

However, I think 3 Thoughtseize is wrong. It's kinda like running 3 StP's (without another 1-of spot removal)... you just don't do it.

So at this point:

-1 Psychatog

Now, I'm not sure whether I should toss in an Anger or toss in the 4th Thoughtseize. The damage to the manabase is going to be inconsequential. Which card is going to improve the deck more and against what?

For now, I'm going to toy around with it both ways. Maybe there is another card that can get cut to where I can run both Anger and the 4th Thoughtseize but I'm not sure yet, the list is really tight already.

I'm also cutting 1 Shriekmaw from the maindeck for 1 Stinkweed Imp, dropping the lone Imp from the sideboard, and adding the 4th Therapy in the sideboard.

MD
-1 Shriekmaw
+1 Stinkweed Imp
SB
-1 Stinkweed Imp
+1 Cabal Therapy


What should I cut for the 4th Daze and should a 4th Thoughtseize be played in general?


You don't need the 4th Daze. I know it may sound dumb that Daze is being ran as a 3-of if you look at it by itself, but you have to keep it mind that it has a similar function as FoW. Essentially, you're getting 7 early game free countermagics. The 4th Daze often gives you more dead cards later on. Now, that's not such a bad thing when you have Coliseum to discard, cantrip to shuffle away, etc but it's not necessary to run the 4th. This deck also values land drops, so excessive Dazing is actually counter-productive sometimes.

However, the deck should somehow find a way to fit the 4th Thoughtseize. 3 Thoughtseize is an eyesore on its lonesome without additional discard. Drop a Tog, add the 4th Thoughtseize. Problem solved.

----

I edited my decklist above (several posts up) to reflect my current developmental changes. I also added some additional information to the above decklist post as well.

I'm also in the process of writing up a new primer, even though it's taking me a really long time because I've been busy lately and I want it to contain ALOT of information. If anyone wants to send some PM's to collaberate a little about it, be my guest. I think a new primer would rejuvenate discussion on this deck, as well.

Hanni
08-03-2008, 03:35 PM
I'm not sure why no one is interested in this deck but whatever.

Anyways, I've decided to revert back to 3 Shriekmaw maindeck because they are better at removing Goyfs. Tombstalkers are much less important to me than opposing Goyfs. This deck should either be able to race Tombstalkers with Goyfs or simply block them via Wonder later on... most of the time, at least from personal experience, Tombstalkers don't come down before turn 4. Obviously, I'm still going to keep 1 Stinkweed Imp in the sideboard.

Lately, I've been finding Pithing Needle less and less attractive as a sideboard option. It get's wiped away by Deed (and sometimes EE) frequently and cannot be recurred. It is an extremely powerful card but I believe this deck has sufficient answers to anything it would need the Pithing Needles for.

I also want to fit in some Blue Elemental Blasts. I haven't had significant issues with Goblins or Dragon Stompy... but the Blue Elemental Blasts not only improve those matchups, they also improve Burn and (Goyf) Sligh. The ability to also hit decks like TES and Belcher is just an additional bonus. Considering that Burn is this decks hardest matchup (and Goyf Sligh can be pretty difficult, too), I'd say that Blue Elemental Blasts are worthy sideboard cards.

I obviously need room in the sideboard to fit them so I'm gonna drop the 1-of Deed.

So after tweaking the maindeck and sideboard configurations around a little bit, this is my current incarnation and what I believe is my strongest list to date:

U/G/b Intuition Thresh
Smart Thresh

Lands (19)
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

Creatures (14)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Gigapede
3 Shriekmaw
1 Wonder
1 Genesis

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard (15)
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Stinkweed Imp

Like I said before, I'm in the process of writing up a new primer for this deck. The deck name I'm using is Intuition Thresh and I'm almost done writing it up. No one has PM'd me about it yet to collaberate info with me so I hope no one is upset when I post it.

georgjorge
08-10-2008, 07:03 PM
So I've tried a red (and of course Aggro) version of the deck, and though I haven't been able to test much, it's 6-1 (against REAL decks, not Elves or something) as of now...

It's basically a UGr Thresh with lategame plans instead of putting everything into a quick kill. The games always go the same - you play creatures, they play creatures or removal, and still somehow they usually go down to ten or twelve life in the process. Then you either resolve an Intuition, or try to squeeze in the last few points of damage with creatures and Burn. It's a good plan.

Like I've argued extensively before, I don't like the controllish builds very much and they play differently, so this is not really comparable to the builds running Deed, Genesis and everything. Anyway, in comparison to black builds, you lose better removal (Smother) and discard (though I would play two Seize maximum). In comparison to white, you lose the best removal (Swords) and two good creatures in Grunt and Mage. BUT, you gain extra reach (important), especially with Loam + Ring in case you can't come through with creatures (too many defenders, Humility, Moat etc).

One more thing...any version not totally controllish really needs a Roar of the Worm. Trust me. When you are under attack, Intuition gives you Worm next turn, and Pede after that. Recurring a Goyf with Genesis or Coliseum with Loam the turn after Intuition just doesn't protect you from getting your head beaten in. It can also be nicely discarded by Mongrel...

So the list:

8 Fetches
8 Duals (of three different styles)
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Barbarian Ring

4 Goyf
4 Mongrel
3 Mongoose
1 Pede
1 Worm
1 Wonder

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam

4 Bolt
3 Fire/Ice

4 Force
3 Spell Snare


I like Snare better than Daze here because Daze is best when you go first, whereas Snare can help you get over the disadvantage of going second. It's also better in the lategame. It's a close call, and a bit of personal preference decides it...

Like the other builds, this has a hard time against combo and Burn. So the sideboard will include 3 Jitte (Goblins and Burn), 3 Stifle and 2 Arcane Lab, at the very least.

Hanni
08-11-2008, 03:51 PM
I think that a UGr approach is very interesting. Obviously very different than UGb (and deserving of its own thread), but it definitely has potential. My favorite Thresh build has always been UGr Thresh with 12 green beaters and 11 burn spells.

I'd fit Anger in. Anger is better than Wonder in your list. Flying isn't as necessary to you as it is in UGb lists because you have burn for when the ground stalemates. However, giving all of your guys Haste is very complimentary to the G/R Beats strategy.

I don't think you need Roar of the Wurm. Just because it gives you a play on turn 4 after you cast Intuition doesn't mean it's necessary. You're already the aggressor here so I don't think you need it for defensive purposes like you said. Even if it can be discarded via Mongrel, it's still not something I think the deck needs. Roar of the Wurm is a good card but I think you'd be better off with the 4th Mongoose.

The Intuition pile looks like it should be: Loam/Gigapede/Anger. Sometimes you'll want to replace Anger with Wasteland, in matchups where Waste-lock autowins you the game.

I don't like Spell Snare and would definitely run Daze instead. I read your description and I realize that both have pros and cons but Snare is very situational whereas Daze answers more spells (we're talking early game here). You don't really need to worry about lategame bombs since the game shouldn't go to the lategame very often and you do have Gigapede. I'd also highly recommend the 4th Daze.

Fire//Ice is a solid card but I'd run Chain Lightning in its place simply because its more aggressive (less mana, more damage).

I'd also modify the manabase to mimic my UGb manabase (with Barbarian Ring replacing Cephalid Coliseum). This means 4 basics and 1 Wasteland.

With my above recommendations, the deck is 61 cards. I'd drop 1 Wild Mongrel to take it down to 60 (since I feel it is the weakest card in the deck).

U/G/r Intuition Thresh

Lands (19)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Wasteland

Creatures (13)
4 Mongoose
4 Goyf
3 Wild Mongrel
1 Gigapede
1 Anger

(Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning

That's what I'd run, personally, if I were going to play a UGr version of Intuition Thresh. However, I'm not sure if Wild Mongrel is better than Werebear or Quirion Dryad in here and I think that is something that would need tested.

---


Like the other builds, this has a hard time against combo and Burn.

My black build doesn't have a hard time against combo, just burn. The (normal) combo matchup is very favorable for my UGb build, actually.

For sideboarding vs burn, Jitte is decent but only attaches to 8 of your guys. Against Goblins, Pyroclasm is far superior. Personally, I'd just run Blue Elemental Blasts for those matchups since BEB also hits Dragon Stompy and other decks.

I wouldn't run Arcane Labratory either. If I was going to run an Enchantment like that, I'd run Pyrostatic Pillar instead.

georgjorge
08-11-2008, 04:41 PM
Thanks for the reply ! I'll surely try out some of those recommendations...

As to the Intuition targets, however, I don't share your opinion. I'd rather play the creatures out of my hand before casting Intuition, making haste not necessary. But flying IS - Burn is often not enough to get through.

Roar...I think it's amazing. In situations where a 6/1 is just not so good, you can play a 6/6 instead. And I think being able to curve out on turn four and five IS important for an aggressive deck. Also, you don't always reach five mana for 'Pede in time (you can get Loam, but you may want to do other things with your mana).

Dryad I've tested, and it's underwhelming. I don't know why (the deck isn't that different from Thresh), but I have a hard time getting it bigger than 4/4 over the following two turns..


You really don't have trouble against combo ? Looking at the list, it seems not so easy...From my experience, seven discard and four Forces give you a decent chance, but it shouldn't be that favorable (also, there are only eight creatures to flashback Therapy).

Hanni
08-11-2008, 05:14 PM
As to the Intuition targets, however, I don't share your opinion. I'd rather play the creatures out of my hand before casting Intuition, making haste not necessary. But flying IS - Burn is often not enough to get through.

Obviously you want to play your guys quickly to push damage through quickly. However, you're not always going to be dropping guys right away. Sometimes you're going to have to cantrip into them, like normal Thresh. Instead of dropping Goyf on turn 4 and then waiting for turn 5 to attack, you can simply drop him and swing immediately once you have Anger in the bin.

I'm not going to discredit Wonder, since it may be invaluable in this deck much like it is in UGb. I'm simply saying that I'd prefer to grab Anger over Wonder in most situations. Giving Gigapede haste is rediculous.

Turn 1 Brainstorm.
Turn 2 Ponder, Mongoose.
Turn 3 Intuition (grabbing Loam/Gigapede/Anger), swing for 1.
Turn 4 Dredge & cast Loam, Goyf (pitching Anger w/ Gigapede), swing for 7.
Turn 5 Gigapede, swing for 15.

That's a turn 5 goldfish, 23 damage on turn 5. Backed by FoW, that will sometimes race combo (especially burn).


Roar...I think it's amazing. In situations where a 6/1 is just not so good, you can play a 6/6 instead. And I think being able to curve out on turn four and five IS important for an aggressive deck. Also, you don't always reach five mana for 'Pede in time (you can get Loam, but you may want to do other things with your mana).


With only 19 lands, you will very rarely hit 4 lands on turn 4 without the assistance of Loam. This makes curving with RotW less likely. There are very few times where having a 6/6 is any different from having a 6/1. Considering that the token doesn't recur and is targetable simply makes it a worse card. Giving Gigapede Haste and/or Flying fixes whatever you might want a 6/6 over a 6/1 for. It's not that RotW is bad in here... it's that I don't find it necessary.


Dryad I've tested, and it's underwhelming. I don't know why (the deck isn't that different from Thresh), but I have a hard time getting it bigger than 4/4 over the following two turns..

Dryad is probably bad in here, it was just a suggestion. Honestly, I think Werebear is the best creature for that spot. It taps for mana, accelerating into turn 3 Intuitions in games where you had to Daze early. It's very easy to hit Threshold with this deck and I'd say that a post-Thresh Werebear is a better beater than Wild Mongrel. The fact that Mongrel discards Anger/Wonder hardly seems relevant when considering what creature would be better. The biggest pro to Wild Mongrel that I see is that it's not Threshold dependant and it's usually a bit more aggressive early on.

I'd highly recommend testing both Wild Mongrel and Werebear for a while to figure out which one works better.


You really don't have trouble against combo ? Looking at the list, it seems not so easy...From my experience, seven discard and four Forces give you a decent chance, but it shouldn't be that favorable (also, there are only eight creatures to flashback Therapy).

I play the Threshold core and I have 4 Force, 3 Daze, and 4 Thoughtseize. How is that any different from normal Threshold, which has always boasted a postitive combo matchup? Deed oftentimes answers EtW/Zombie tokens in time... and even if it doesn't, I have EE postboard to do that. I also get Cabal Therapy, Extirpate, and even BEB (against Belcher and possibly TES). Honestly, my UGb version typically rips combo apart. The only "combo" deck I have a problem with is burn, where I simply take the loss game 1 and bring in 3 BEB 3 Cabal Therapy games 2 and 3 to hopefully win the matchup.

I only have 8 creatures to flashback Therapy to early on, which is enough early game to rip someones hand apart. Don't forget that Cabal Therapy works really really well when I open with a turn 1 Thoughtseize. As soon as I resolve Intuition, it doesn't matter that I sac'd a guy because I just bring my creatures back. As long as I survive the early game I almost always win the mid-late game. However, I've been considering Duress in the Cabal Therapy spots lately... I'm not sure which card I'd rather have.

Waikiki
08-11-2008, 07:16 PM
im really curious about the deck's primer.

Information about matchups, boarding plans, what gameplan you go with in the early game. What the most common first intuition pile is etc.

When will it be finished?

Hanni
08-11-2008, 07:35 PM
I worked 92 hours this week so I don't know when I'll actually finish the primer. It's only about halfway done right now but it's already 8 pages on Microsoft Word.

It's going to be organized like this:

*Deck History
*Current Decklist
*Explanation of Card Choices
(Including cards that weren't included and why)
*Gameplan
*Matchup Analysis + Sideboard Plans
*Developmental Opportunities

BreathWeapon
08-20-2008, 11:31 AM
I've been running this list,

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thought Seize

4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

1 Wonder
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose

3 Pernicious Deed

1 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland

SB
4 Krosan Grip
4 Extirpate
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Gigapede
4 (Open)

and it has proven to be on par with Threshold.

A couple minor/major changes were made in replacing the Cephalid Coliseum/Genesis engine for Raven's Crime and Volrath's Stronghold and replacing Shriekmaw with Wild Mongrel. The premise is even tho' Genesis is card advantage it's a *brick,* and the deck has a reasonable substitute in Volrath's Stronghold that doesn't require a slot. Cephalid Coliseum is just a questionable card, it made sense when it served to put the Incarnations in the graveyard, but Raven's Crime serves the same purpose, and it generates card advantage thru' disruption with out sacrificing a land (so Intuition piles for Life from the Loam, Wasteland and Raven's Crime just GGs opponents)

Shriekmaw not being able to destroy Phyrexian Dreadnought and Dark Confidant is awful, and no amount of recursion can make up for that. If you use removal, the removal slot needs to be X Smother and 1 Shriekmaw, because Dreadnought based decks will either out race you or out card advantage you before reaching 3 mana for Pernicious Deed (which is just a Krosan Grip, Trickbind and Stifle magnet).

Shriekmaw was replaced with Wild Mongrel because I decided to increase the deck's win percentages against Landstill, Goblins and TES with minimal cost to the deck's win percentage against Dreadnought and Threshold.

I'm sure these changes are going to be controversial, since the Cephalid Coliseum/Genesis Engine is much beloved and Raven's Crime is *new,* but the card advantage of Raven's Crime is significant and the Intuition for the Life from the Loam, Wasteland and Raven's Crime pile is a middle to end game lock. Of course, Genesis and Raven's Crime aren't mutually exclusive, and Intuition for Life from the Loam, Raven's Crime and Genesis is a more durable pile against Extirpate, so there's a medium (a friend tried cutting a Daze for Genesis and replacing Volrath's Stronghold with Cabal Pit, I tried SBing Wonder for Genesis and using the same land swap)

All I know is not using Raven's Crime in this deck is a crime in and of itself, it's more or less a customized Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining top combo for Intuition and Life from the Loam based decks, which is the nuts.

Note: List update, read below for reasoning.

Illissius
08-21-2008, 12:07 AM
Raven's Crime definitely seems powerful, upon reflection. Do you have enough black to use it effectively?

Putting EE in the side is an... interesting decision. Are you sure swapping places with a Deed isn't the better idea? (Either that, or cut both Ruins and EE. That late game board control doesn't seem to have as much value in a more aggressive deck like this one.)

BreathWeapon
08-21-2008, 02:25 AM
Raven's Crime definitely seems powerful, upon reflection. Do you have enough black to use it effectively?

Putting EE in the side is an... interesting decision. Are you sure swapping places with a Deed isn't the better idea? (Either that, or cut both Ruins and EE. That late game board control doesn't seem to have as much value in a more aggressive deck like this one.)

I haven't noticed too many or too few black sources for Raven's Crime, with Intuition and Life from the Loam, you have up to 3 Underground Seas for BBB.

SB Engineered Explosives is a product of MD Wonder, I go back and forth on whether or not I want the reach in the MD or SB, but Academy Ruins is there for a Tormod's Crypt lock. SB Engineered Explosives also helps fight Pithing Needle, Meddling Mage and Extirpate by differentiating your removal slots and creating redundancy. SB Gigapede is there for the same reason, becaise Intuition for Life from the Loam, Raven's Crime and Gigapede gives control decks a difficult choice on what to Extirpate.

The biggest question is whether or not Wild Mongrel or Werebear deserves the 2cc slot, Wild Mongrel is the shit vs Goblins and shit vs the rest of the field, while Werebear is shit vs Goblins and does a lot to smooth out the mana curve. I use to believe Wild Mongrel discarding excess Life from the Loam lands was awesome, but then I realized Wild Mongrel was reliant on Life from the Loam to be on par with Werebear, and that was just 1 Wild Mongrel compared to X Werebear. Sure, multiple Life from the Loam give you a Wild Mongrel big enough to challenge a Tarmogoyf, but really then it's just Intuition being the nuts and Wild Mongrel being "meh."

Raven's Crime is ridiculous tho', auto include IMO.

Edit: Updated list, -4 Wild Mongrel for +4 Werebear, Wild Mongrel is too dependent on Intuition to be a threat and Werebear's T:G has managed to stabilize the manabase. -1 Tolarian Academy for +1 Cephalid Coliseum, because Raven's Crime is terrible in topdeck mode and not having the card selection/advantage is too limiting. Academy Ruins was moved to the SB for the Tormod's Crypt lock, and the SB consists of 4 Krosan Grip, 4 Extirpate, 1 Gigapede, 1 Academy Ruins and 1 Tormod's Crypt with 4 open slots, the 4 open slots are just 1xs I'm experimenting with like Engineered Explosives, Stinkweed Imp, Cabal Pit, Dark Blast etc.

georgjorge
08-26-2008, 04:59 AM
Giving Gigapede haste is rediculous.

I think a hasted Gigapede is a lot less of a threat than a flying one.

Also, in the example you gave, playing Goyf on turn three and Intuition for Wonder on turn four would probably have been better - Gigapede wouldn't have had haste, but your creatures would have gotten through for sure.

But I think the discussion has exhausted itself now :wink: .



Raven's Crime is ridiculous tho', auto include IMO.

At which time in the game do you usually cast your Intuitions ? I understand that Intuition on the third turn and starting Criming on the fourth turn can be strong against Control, but then resolving Intuition against Control (and them not having yard removal) is often GG without Crime, and it seems to slow against aggroish decks. Not saying it's bad, I just want to know in which situations Crime has won games for you that recurring flying 'Pedes or Coliseum wouldn't have won.

BreathWeapon
08-26-2008, 01:29 PM
I think a hasted Gigapede is a lot less of a threat than a flying one.

Also, in the example you gave, playing Goyf on turn three and Intuition for Wonder on turn four would probably have been better - Gigapede wouldn't have had haste, but your creatures would have gotten through for sure.

But I think the discussion has exhausted itself now :wink: .




At which time in the game do you usually cast your Intuitions ? I understand that Intuition on the third turn and starting Criming on the fourth turn can be strong against Control, but then resolving Intuition against Control (and them not having yard removal) is often GG without Crime, and it seems to slow against aggroish decks. Not saying it's bad, I just want to know in which situations Crime has won games for you that recurring flying 'Pedes or Coliseum wouldn't have won.

Raven's Crime is best against Storm combo or decks that need to be locked down, but recurring flying Gigapedes and Cephalid Coliseum is kind of slow compared to recurring Raven's Crime and Wasteland on turn 3+. It's kind of hard to explain, but the tempo of the deck changes with Raven's Crime + Wasteland locks, so you'll just have to test it for yourself and see what I mean. I don't think comparing Raven's Crime to Gigapede is apt tho', because Raven's Crime is a castable draw while Gigapede is a brick. I don't use Gigapede in the MD for that reason, he's just a superior SB card for dealing with control and Extirpate.

Goaswerfraiejen
08-28-2008, 12:54 AM
Just an update on my own shenanigans this last while: I've been testing Chameleon Colossus in place of Psychatog, with very favourable results (decklist and discussion below). I've also been working on writing up sections for the new primer, which Hanni will post in a new thread when it's ready. It's a busy time for us both, so we're unsure exactly when it'll be ready, but I for one am aiming for the next couple of weeks (possibly too ambitious, but we'll see; I'm also conjecturing purely from my own perspective, which isn't particularly well informed on Hanni's). All that to say that I've not abandoned the deck, and it will hopefully be getting a facelift thanks to a new thread in the near future.

With that out of the way, my current list:

Lands (18)
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

Creatures (17)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Shriekmaw
2 Chameleon Colossus
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
1 Eternal Witness

Spells (25)
3 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard (15)

4 Extirpate
4 Krosan Grip
3 Crime/Punishment
2 Gaea's Blessing
1 Wonder
1 Raven's Crime

-I elected to go to three Thoughtseize because the card is really only particularly useful early on, and becomes nearly dead as the game goes on. Much like Daze. Which makes me wonder if it might not be replaced somehow (or Daze, possibly). I often find myself siding Thoughtseize out.

-I went to three Brainstorms to see what kind of impact it would have on the deck, and to make room for another Colossus, to increase consistency. The impact on the deck has been negligible (I chose to cut Brainstorm rather than Ponder because the ability to shuffle your library is so important here, especially when looking for lands).

-Chameleon Colossus has been a very strong choice overall. Immunity from a chunk of removal gives him some resiliency, and his already high power and toughness mean he's at the top of the food chain until Goyf outgrows him--at which point you can just pump him. I think he's a very powerful choice for the deck. Terravore would be my other consideration, but I think that the Colossus is a better fit for the deck. The cost of pumping him has been well worth the effort. Two questions remain: 1.) Is it overkill? 2.) Are two really better than one?

-Raven's Crime has yet to prove particularly stellar. It's been eating my land drops (two a turn, since you have to pay B AND discard a card--unless I've completely misunderstood Retrace, which is possible) when I bring it in for relatively little gain, since you want it to hit permanents--and permanents are all cast during the opponent's turn. I'm not at all convinced that a maindeck inclusion is anything more than a dangerous cool thing but, to be fair, I will test it in that capacity more extensively (since my current experience with it is only minimal). To be perfectly honest, I didn't think of using it with Wasteland to lock out the opponent (I know, stupid of me), which sounds like a plausible plan of attack. I don't think it really replaces Gigapede (especially for discarding incarnations), however. Anyway, the point is that I need to try it out more extensively before choosing a side.

-Eternal Witness has stayed on to provide late-game power when your mass removal options are exhausted. I tried running without it for a while, but I've got to confess that I am far more comfortable running it as a singleton that can be sided out if necessary.

-I've been encountering far more Grindstone decks lately, hence my inclusion of two Gaea's Blessing in the sideboard. Not having to worry about being able to answer Grindstone lets you worry about answering alternative win conditions, such as Dreadnought or whatever.


As far as Mongrel vs. Werebear go, if you find the room for them in the deck, I would actually go for Werebear because, as BreathWeapon rightly pointed out, they help to stabilize the manabase. I was very happy with it when I ran it, and might just revert back to a list with them for a time; the one hitch is that two mana is easily Counterbalanced, and remains susceptible to Spell Snare.

I'm not really convinced by Volrath's Stronghold over Genesis, however: with Raven's Crime, the pressure to produce coloured mana is even stronger, and Stronghold doesn't help that at all; in fact, it requires much more black. In BreathWeapon's build, that doesn't seem forthcoming. If it hasn't been a problem, then great; I'm just not comfortable with that sort of dependency without more redundancy in my mana production. The need to discard Genesis seems like the lesser evil, in my opinion; especially since Genesis can always be hardcast. Anyway, that's my quibble there. If it works, it works; it's only if it doesn't that it should be changed, right?


My plan for the next few days, other than finishing up my work on the new primer (which will include a section on alternate decklists, just because we seem to have developed so many), will include testing -1 Colossus, +1 Raven's Crime in the maindeck. I'm excited to get my first Intuition pile. :cool:

BreathWeapon
08-28-2008, 04:34 PM
I don't get 3cc + creatures in this deck that aren't Incarnations or Gigapede, it's not like Tarmogoyf or Nimble Mongoose can't dominate the ground or the air, and even Gigapede is kind of excessive unless Extirpate is an issue.

The manabase is unstable enough with Werebear, I can't see how Chameleon Colossus is giving more than it's taking here, and Werebear + Nimble Mongoose trading for a Tarmogoyf is reasonable.

Genesis vs Raven's Crime isn't an either or proposition, but I just don't care for Genesis being a slot compared to Volrath's Stronghold, and I'd at least SB Raven's Crime because it's so ridiculous vs certain matches.

You shouldn't be missing Land drops with Raven's Crime because those Land drops should be Wasteland :wink: B isn't an issue with Raven's Crime, Life from the Loam fixes the mana and you don't more than BB considering your third land is Wasteland. EOT Intuition, untap, land, double Raven's Crime and then double Raven's Crime and Wasteland from there on is great, and you can speed it up if you have a Werebear on the board.

Goaswerfraiejen
08-30-2008, 09:07 AM
I don't get 3cc + creatures in this deck that aren't Incarnations or Gigapede, it's not like Tarmogoyf or Nimble Mongoose can't dominate the ground or the air, and even Gigapede is kind of excessive unless Extirpate is an issue.

You're probably right; Colossus is a good finisher-replacement for Psychatog, but we already have plenty of those, and Incarnations can be hardcast if need be. I've replaced it with a maindeck Stinkweed Imp, because I'm tired of losing to Tombstalkers.



The manabase is unstable enough with Werebear, I can't see how Chameleon Colossus is giving more than it's taking here, and Werebear + Nimble Mongoose trading for a Tarmogoyf is reasonable.

Here, however, I vehemently disagree about the manabase. Looking at our two decklists, the manabases are extremely different, and personally I think that yours is rather sketchy--meaning that Werebear is that much more important for you. My own manabase, however, is very strong overall, with adequate supplies of every colour and several basic lands as a safety net. It will often fail versus dedicated land hate (such as Stax, for example), that's true, but so will most, and I think it's a fair tradeoff in the current internet metagame. Otherwise, it's very stable. It can easily be supplemented by Veteran Explorer or Werebear, as my earlier testing has shown me, but that's a move left to your discretion, and probably more metagame-dependent as well.



Genesis vs Raven's Crime isn't an either or proposition, but I just don't care for Genesis being a slot compared to Volrath's Stronghold, and I'd at least SB Raven's Crime because it's so ridiculous vs certain matches.

I was comparing Gigapede to Raven's Crime, actually. I would never take Gigapede out of the maindeck, just because he's so stellar, but I have taken your advice and added one maindeck Raven's Crime in the slot formerly occupied by the fourth Thoughtseize. It's a nice option to have, and in that slot it's not too gimmicky since it's more useful in the lategame than Thoughtseize is. I'm pretty happy with its potential for the moment, but more testing will have to follow.



You shouldn't be missing Land drops with Raven's Crime because those Land drops should be Wasteland :wink: B isn't an issue with Raven's Crime, Life from the Loam fixes the mana and you don't more than BB considering your third land is Wasteland. EOT Intuition, untap, land, double Raven's Crime and then double Raven's Crime and Wasteland from there on is great, and you can speed it up if you have a Werebear on the board.

I'll say more on this later, but in a great many scenarios I think I'd rather be dropping creatures or the like for those turns, and only Criming after. It's very situational, I think; depends on what's in play, how many cards are in your opponent's hand, what s/he's playing, etc. In all fairness, however, today I destroyed a RG Zoo deck G1 by doing just as you suggested. He got me down to within burn range by the time I'd decimated his lands and hand, but at that point, well... the game doesn't let you draw two at once. :)

For the moment, then, I'm happy with having the possibility of a Crime-lock or Crime discard outlet, even if I remain unsure as to how and when it's most desirable. That will come with testing, I think.

BreathWeapon
08-30-2008, 10:23 AM
It's not so much what lands as it is what number of lands that bothers me, not counting the Incarnations or Gigapede, 7 3cc cards, 18 lands and 8 cantrips just leads to "mana screw" now and then and Werebear did a lot to fix the problem.

Gigapede aside, I don't believe we need a finisher, because this deck can win thru' either a lock or attrition and has Wonder to turn your threats into finishers.

Off topic, but multiple Shriekmaws are just bad, losing to Phyrexian Dreadnought because you played multiple Shriekmaws instead of 1xShriekmaw and Smothers is gut wrenching.

Hanni
08-31-2008, 07:16 PM
The reason I don't run Raven's Crime is for a few reasons.

First of all, its horrible without Loam. It's far inferior to Thoughtseize when played early. The earliest the deck can begin the Raven's Crime lock is turn 4, where the only decks that are still going to have relevant cards in hand by then are control decks like Landstill. I prefer to run Gigapede in the maindeck instead, because it's actually useful outside of just the control matchup.

If Control is a huge metagame presence, I'd probably drop 1 Thoughtseize for 1 Raven's Crime. That's about it, though.

The reason I run Genesis over Volrath's Stronghold is because it provides card advantage and Stronghold does not. There are other pros and cons to both, however many of the pros of Stronghold don't really matter here (like it's ability to be played as an instant, etc). Card advantage is the key concept here that makes Genesis a far superior recur option for this deck, IMO.

I also don't believe that Chameleon Colossus is needed. The deck already has a finisher in Gigapede and I really don't see the need for any other creatures. If for whatever reason the deck would benefit by running more creatures, I'd run Werebear for the simple fact that it maintains the Threshold gameplan (cost effecient fatties) and taps for mana which is relevant for casting Intuitions. However, I've yet to desire more than 4 Mongoose 4 Goyf 1 Gigapede 3 Shriekmaw as my aggro package.

Eternal Witness is something that is highly dependant on metagame, IMO. It's extremely slow, which is why I don't run it. It's not a bad card in here, though. If the metagame is slower (lots of Control, etc), I can definitely see it being powerful.

After extensive playing with this deck with 19 lands, 8 cantrips, and 1-5 Loam(s) (depending on whether or not you count Intuition), I have never had manabase issues unless I'm up against a dedicated LD deck.

Gigapede is very powerful in this deck as a finisher for a large number of reasons. Unless the opponent has maindeck Extirpates or Crypts or whatever, he is impossible to remove. At 5cc, he almost always plays through opposing Counterbalances. At 6/1, he almost always trades with opposing Goyfs. At 5cc, you can cast and blow up Deeds while Gigapede remains in play almost always... and that maintained tempo is oftentimes the difference between a win and a loss in alot of matchups, from my experience. Beyond those few key arguments, there are a ton of other minor reasons to run Gigapede.

I don't think multiple Shriekmaws are bad. They allow the deck access to recurable removal without needing to hit a second Intuition since you will almost always draw/dredge into one before/after the first Intuition. It increases the decks threat density and gives an evasive beater should for whatever reason the deck does not get its engine(s) online and gets to the mid-late game. The fact that it does not answer Dreadnoughts is a small drawback, considering the deck has other means of answering Dreadnoughts between countermagic/discard/Deed. Dreadnought decks have not been a huge problem for me in testing... especially postboard once the deck gets access to both EE and Krosan Grip.

The fact that Smother doesn't answer Tombstalker, which is just as relevant as Dreadnought, makes it a horrible removal option IMO. If I was going to run a removal option other than Shriekmaw's, it would be in the form of StP, dropping the basic Swamp for a Tundra.

As far as the new primer goes, it's going to be a while from now because I'm no longer working on it by myself, thus slowing down production greatly (but the quality is going to be greatly increased).

BreathWeapon
08-31-2008, 07:32 PM
I just lost back 2 back games to Shriekmaw A) not being able to remove Dark Confidant B) not being able to remove Phyrexian Dreadnought and C) being able to get countered by Stifle.

Seriously, the card is so win more.

Hanni
08-31-2008, 09:04 PM
While Stifle affects Shriekmaw, the fact that Shriekmaw dodges Counterbalance (unless they have a 5cc spell on top, of course) is more relevant, as I believe Counterbalance is played more than Stifle.

The fact that Shriekmaw cannot answer Dreadnought or Dark Confidant should only be minorly relevant, since Deed answers both of them. The problem is that neither Smother, Shriekmaw, or Deed (almost always) answer Tombstalker. Therefore, if I was going to drop Shriekmaws for a different removal option, it would be for StP. The reason I run Shriekmaw instead of StP is for its raw synergy with the rest of the deck. If I cannot counter/discard Dreadnoughts/Confidant's, I'm hoping I can Deed them. Postboard I get EE as an additional low-cc permanent answer for those Confidant's/Dreadnoughts.

If you want to run Smother because it can destroy a few things Shriekmaw cannot (while being unable to kill a few things that Shriekmaw can), go ahead. I don't think it's worth it, unless the meta is heavily supporting Doran/Confidant/Dreadnought, but that's your call.

mackaber
09-01-2008, 03:32 PM
So I played this dec at German Legacy Champs to a Top 8 finish ending up 3rd after Swiss going 6-1-1 with amazing tie breakers but loosing in the quarter finals to UGB tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh.

List:

18 lands pretty much Hanni's configuration -1 Island

4 Goyf
4 Geese
2 Bears
Wonder
Genesis
2 Shriekmaw

3 deeds
4 force
3 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Intuition
4 BS
4 Ponder
1 Raven's Crime
1 Loam

SB:
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Extrirpate
4 Blue Blast (I never leave home without em)
1 Gigapede
3 Krosan Grip
1 EE

So here's the story: First round I draw with UGB CB Top dec and am annoyed that I'll be playing landstill all day. Well turns out that the matchup is nigh unlooseable with a little help of tight play and I smash all 4 of my landstill opponents on my way to top 8. I also beat Fetchland Tendrils and the innovative mono Red dec that was also in top 8 (in case your interested in the declists you can go to planetmtg.de) and lost to the attrocious 14 land fish dec. I'll post a few more random thoughts later on.

Hanni
09-01-2008, 06:15 PM
Everytime I leave the deck alone for a while and come back to it, it improves my judgement on card choices and such.

I've been running 1 Gigapede in the finisher (which was once Tog) spot for a good while now. What I failed to realize is that I can now cut the Cephalid Coliseum... the ability to draw some cards is mediocre but not needed whatsoever. The additional outlet to discard Incarnations is redundant and unecessary.

-1 Cephalid Coliseum

I was thinking for a while whether or not I should replace the Coliseum with another land, since I've been running 19 lands for a while. For now, I'm going to try just 18 lands and see if that is sufficient. I know from my experience with Fish (17 lands, 8 cantrips), I usually had no problem hitting 3 land. I'm going to take my chances here with 18. If it works out, awesome. If not, I'll add another land.

In the open spot, I've decided to try putting the Stinkweed Imp in the maindeck. I'm also considering Big Game Hunter for that spot as well.

+1 Stinkweed Imp

That frees up a spot in my sideboard, which I'm going to squeeze a Raven's Crime in there and try it out a bit.

This is my new decklist:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Underground Sea
1 [B] Bayou
2 [IA] Island (2)
1 [PT] Swamp (4)
1 [4E] Forest (1)
1 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [ON] Gigapede
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
1 [JU] Wonder
1 [JU] Genesis

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [TE] Intuition
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [7E] Duress
SB: 1 [EVE] Raven's Crime
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

BreathWeapon
09-01-2008, 07:57 PM
When I cut the Coliseum I missed the drawing/discarding power and just had lands in hand as wasted resources, I think you'll miss the card selection as well.

mackaber
09-02-2008, 06:09 AM
Just in case anyone is interested some thoughts on matchups and single cards gathered over the course of the weekend and my earlier testing.

Raven's Crime: This card really made the Landstill MU a walk in the park. Seriuously they can resolve turn 2 Standstill and you can just go ahead and break it with intuition fetching wasteland loam and this and they'll be in a tight spot for the entire game. All you need to do is make sure that they do not resolve a crucible and they will be annihilated. Same goes for Stormcombo. Against other decs it seemed unimpressive and is crap sans loam. This should be a one of in the MD or the SB but that is metagame dependent.
Intuition: Obviously the most powerful spell in the dec. Still I'm not sure if 4 is the correct number since it is rather mana intensive and this dec is poor when it's forced into the defense since many of it's answers are clunky.
Deed: Great utility but slightly too slow to be used efficiently as a board sweeper versus Tempotresh builds and Gobs.
Thoughtseize: Not playing 4 seems ludicrous.
Shriekmaw: I'd play this as a one of in the future. Not having direct sollutions for Bob cost me 2 of my 5 game losses on the weekend.
Genesis: Oddly enough I only activated this once in 9 matches. Also having to discard this before it can be used is annoying and unwiedly. I'll likely switch to Stronghold since 18 lands seemed like a tad too few and all Germans love extirpate which btw is terrible in this dec imho.
Werebear: Was unimpressive all weekend. His ability to ensure turn 3 intuition even when missing a land drop was swell but he's just smaller than goyf and thus sucks. I'll replace these two with a gigapede and some spot removal.
Cabal Therapy: Never drew em but it seemed like the storm combo MU should be fine without em. I'll prolly replace these with spell snare to improve the MU vs tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh.

Props to everyone who worked on this dec it's truly awesome. It seeems to me that to improve the dec versus regular Thresh decs and also the ugly boggarts the curve should be lowered. While deed is great from a decbuilding perspective for it's versatility, it's a bit too slow versus both gobs and Tempothresh. Especially the MU vs. UGB Tempo Thresh is a nightmare. Where we have deed intuition and unwieldy one offs they have stifles spellsnares more dazes an wastlands and almost worst of all Bob, so if not thru some lucky instance we can survive into the late game they can roll us over since both deed and Intuition will often fall victim to daze and bob will often top intuition in terms of CA.

Goaswerfraiejen
09-05-2008, 06:25 PM
First of all, congratulations are in order for your T8 performance, Mackaber!

Shriekmaw vs. Smother: Personally, I donít think that Dreadnought is enough of a threat in general (and metagames may differ, of course) to warrant the inclusion of Smother over two of the three Shriekmaws. My reasoning is thus:

-Two Smothers cannot be fetched out (guaranteed) with Intuition, meaning weíd have to run three, and slots are already tight.
-Hardcasting Shriekmaw is not common, but it happens often enough that Iím not comfortable running only one. At that point, hardcasting it becomes 100% win-more, because you canít afford to sacrifice your one and only recurrable removal option.
-I dredge quite a bit, overall, and those Dredges often hit Shriekmaw. This is great because it allows me to recur them that much sooner and more consistently, without needing to waste an Intuition slot to grab it. If Smother hits the graveyard on a Dredge, however, itís a tragedy, because then my only option is to recur it with Witness (which is better used on Deeds or Forces)--a card that many other builds donít run at all.
-Shriekmaw dodges Counterbalance much more easily than Smother, which is very relevant versus Threshold and Landstill.

Given those considerations, I feel that losing to the occasional Dreadnought is perfectly acceptable. Hard to swallow, maybe, but itís not like we have no options: Force, Daze, Deed, Stinkweed Imp, Krosan Grip, Crime/Punishment (or EE, whichever).


I just lost back 2 back games to Shriekmaw A) not being able to remove Dark Confidant B) not being able to remove Phyrexian Dreadnought and C) being able to get countered by Stifle.

Seriously, the card is so win more.

For all the losses you might suffer to Shriekmawís limitations, I can point to games that I won solely because I ran multiples of the card and was able to recur it again and again, using it as a quasi-Deed. In the past, I ran a version with 1 Shriekmaw and 2-3 Smother (and later, 3 Sudden Death) for quite some time, and it worked well enough. Clearly, then, it can be done and is a viable option. I donít feel that itís ideal within the context of the deck and current (general) trends in the format. I urge you not to be discouraged by these losses, and to just test some more. If one particular configuration works better for you and the decks that youíre encountering, then go for it.

A question about ďlosses to Dark ConfidantĒ: What exactly did you two lose to? Was it Confidantís card advantage, or--God forbid--his beatdown? Was it early-game card advantage that was problematic, or late-game?

Usually, when I encounter a Confidant, I just leave it in play to help me whittle down my opponentís life. It can be a little more problematic in a Threshold context because it helps your opponent to find answers early on, but really Iíve found that its only impact on the game comes early. By the mid- and late-games, it becomes a liability because youíre generating far more card advantage yourself and usually apply more pressure. Iím not trying to tell anyone how to play--Iím hardly in a position to do that--but Iím definitely curious on this point, because in almost all of the relevant games that Iíve played, destroying Dark Confidant has seemed like a waste of a removal spell. So yeah, just wondering whatís generating the different impressions.

BreathWeapon
09-05-2008, 08:19 PM
I see a lot of "Dreadnought, go" from Dreadstill and it's hard to get Pernicious Deed on the board in time thru' Daze, I'm sure it's metagame dependent but it's still a bitch to deal with. Dark Confidant was being run in FT/TES SBs and not being able to deal with their card advantage just over powered my Force of Wills, Dazes and Thought Seizes.

I don't know, maybe you just have to learn to live with it *shrug*.

mackaber
09-06-2008, 12:17 PM
I lost two matches out of the 5 I lost total during 9 rounds to DC. The reasoning for this is quite simple. In decs which are faster than ours (those Thresh decs sporting stifles and spellsnares and 4 dazes have a lower average casting cost than we do and thus are better equipped at playing the tempo mirror) a resolved bob who is impossible to handle before turn 4 generates such large amounts of CA that you will be hard pressed to force through your more powerful spells (Intuition and Deed) and even if you do resolve intuition you can not be sure that the CA provided can compete with that provided by DC, especially since all CA drawn from intuition requires further investment in mana while Bobs CA comes fre of cost (altough you could argue that loss of life= loss of tempo which is not entirely correct and only applies when you have entered a race situation). While yes it is hypothetically possible to merely race him and enjoy bobs help if your playing a 50 card mirror match this scenario will only rarely come up. Also see my explanations above and compare the declist of my quarterfinal opponent which is fairly typical: http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=4288

darkalucard
09-11-2008, 10:57 PM
I've been looking over this thread and it seems to me this deck has turned into Threshold.

The only difference I see is that you snuck in an Intuition package, but your still sacrificing late game by playing Nimble, Daze, and playing very few lands. And by doing this it weakens the power of intuition and deed. Which I thought was the foundation of the deck.

I've tested this deck a bit and it seems to be clunky and is deffinately going tempo and it would be better to go all out UBg Thrash.

Question: What are the reasons for playing this over UBg Thrash or a less Tempo Tog list?

raharu
09-12-2008, 02:13 AM
Well, all I can say is that Intuition in and of itself is important because the recursion engines make the late game. Intuition piles that include LftL (well, that's about 90% of them, right?) set up your manabase for the late game and make sure you hit your land drops like typical control, so that makes the relatively low land count irrelevant.

Nimble Mongoose is a weapon against control and another speed bump against agro. Not exactly a late game bomb, but it is strong against control, which is relevant.

Daze... Well, it gives you a better combo match up. I could see playing other countermagic (Counterspell? I don't think Spell Snare is the answer), or something else eitirely in that slot, or frequently boarding them out, but honestly they aren't bad additions to the deck. I would run 3 at the most though, perhaps playing EE in the 4th daze slot and forcing in an Academy Ruins*.

Personally I'm in love with UGb Thrash and UGbw threshold, but there are reasons to prefer this to them. Maybe it's a meta thing, maybe it's playstyle, maybe I just don't like Intuition as much as I should. iDunno.

*Is it viable to play Executioner's Capsule, EE, and Arademy Ruins in this deck? I'm aware that it could be stretching the Intuition engine and encroaching on "The Danger of Cool Things", but it sounds... strong. Capsule doesn't nerf your threats, EE is CA if you're waiting on a win condition, etc. I'm sure you can spell it out.

Adan
09-19-2008, 04:27 PM
I lost two matches out of the 5 I lost total during 9 rounds to DC. The reasoning for this is quite simple. In decs which are faster than ours (those Thresh decs sporting stifles and spellsnares and 4 dazes have a lower average casting cost than we do and thus are better equipped at playing the tempo mirror) a resolved bob who is impossible to handle before turn 4 generates such large amounts of CA that you will be hard pressed to force through your more powerful spells (Intuition and Deed) and even if you do resolve intuition you can not be sure that the CA provided can compete with that provided by DC, especially since all CA drawn from intuition requires further investment in mana while Bobs CA comes fre of cost (altough you could argue that loss of life= loss of tempo which is not entirely correct and only applies when you have entered a race situation). While yes it is hypothetically possible to merely race him and enjoy bobs help if your playing a 50 card mirror match this scenario will only rarely come up. Also see my explanations above and compare the declist of my quarterfinal opponent which is fairly typical: http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=4288

That is the reason why I am always asking myself why this deck does not run any additional spotremoval.

3 Shriekmaw seem bad to me as you must have some ways of dealing with Dark Confidant and Phyrexian Dreadnought. Phyrexian Dreadnought can be handles by Pernicious Deed, but this requires 4 mana and you are not safe from Stifles and Trickbinds the Dreadnought-player might still have.

BreathWeapon's list seems pretty good to me, but I am thinking about exchanging the 3 Deeds for Smothers. Maybe because BreathWeapon's list is very aggressive and that's what I like about it, but Pernicious Deeds don't seem to fit into that aggressive concept.

Clemens gave me a tutorial how to play Pernicious Deed/the whole deck properly. But I didn't like it as I then see no reason to play this over ITF.

slyfer
09-20-2008, 06:08 AM
Thoughtseize grab always creatures in this deck, becasue of lack of better spot removal. So even if you lose the dice roll, they land go, you can now:
1) land seize, and you are ok
2) you can have daze/fow in hand for their second turn confidant or stifle/naught

If they go beyond turn 2/3 then you should be ok, because you start dropping bombs like intuition/loam, raven crime, deed, etc....

Goaswerfraiejen
10-08-2008, 09:10 PM
I'm hard at work on my Master's degree, so I've had a little less time for the deck than usual. My apologies. Hanni and I haven't been in touch for a couple of weeks--he's rather busy as well--so I'm not entirely sure when he's planning to have the new primer ready. We've got most of it written up, but there are a few things that still need to be done. I'll post more news when we have it, or go ahead with the new thread with what we've got. Just waiting to hear back.

Now, to address a few things:



I've been looking over this thread and it seems to me this deck has turned into Threshold.

This deck began as UGB Threshold, and quickly evolved into a hybrid. I fail to see a problem with the fact that it possesses Threshold-esque elements if those elements give it a distinct advantage that other decks (such as ITF) lack.


The only difference I see is that you snuck in an Intuition package, but your still sacrificing late game by playing Nimble, Daze, and playing very few lands. And by doing this it weakens the power of intuition and deed. Which I thought was the foundation of the deck.

I'm not sure I see your point. Well, I see one point: very few lands. This is very true, and a problem I've tried to overcome a number of ways. Ultimately, it seems that there has to be a metagame-dependent tradeoff: if you're bound to run into heavy attrition, the Veteran Explorer/Werebear/etc. route is the best. Otherwise, it works well enough. You certainly don't need more than two more lands, and it's easy enough to grab one or two from Thoughtseize's slots if you feel the need.

As far as Daze goes, I'm afraid it's a necessary evil in a combo-heavy environment. Furthermore, in a Legacy metagame that's eeing an increased counterspell-based control presence, having more than just Force of Will hanging around is that much more important. You may have seen in earlier posts that I'm not a huge fan of the loss of tempo generated by returning lands with Daze--that still stands, but I'm not entirely sure how best to address this issue. The addition of pinpoint discard (Thoughtseize and Crime) has certainly helped a great deal on this plan, and makes Daze's inclusion palatable for me.

You're dead wrong about Mongoose, however. It's your easiest beater to recur (remember: the whole point of blowing the board up is that you can use your graveyard to recover quickly), and it's extremely difficult to deal with beyond throwing larger creatures in its face. The little guy is essential, and hardly lacks synergy with the rest of the deck: he's a huge part of your gameplan.



Question: What are the reasons for playing this over UBg Thrash or a less Tempo Tog list?


That's a very good question. I'm not entirely sure what you've got in mind with "less Tempo-Tog," so I won't speak to that. As I understand UGB Thrash (and correct me if I'm wrong), however, its strengths lie in the early game, and therein lies the difference. If UGB Thrash cannot establish early game dominance, it starts to falter. Accordingly, it has difficulties in the relative mirrors and against control-oriented decks while being fairly strong against combo, other aggro-control, etc.

This deck, on the other hand, is much more of a mid-game aggro-control deck. This means that it applies a fair bit of pressure in the early game and can duke it out into the late game if need be, but gets going for real in the mid game. This is an area (time) of the game that's sorely underrepresented at the moment. What this means is that you start steamrolling just as Threshold starts losing its vigour and while control is still building up. Accordingly, this deck's strengths lie against aggro-control and control. More specifically, Threshold and Landstill.

Personally, I would say that you want to play this for the same general reasons that you want to play ITF (despite obvious differences across some matchups), except that it's faster and more consistent in its performances across the gauntlet (again, despite some obvious differences in certain matchups--after all, though similar, they're different decks). Maybe that's just me being arrogant, though.

As I see it, in any case, UGB Thrash and UGB Intuition Thresh have rather different aims. Accordingly, which one you play is going to boil down to which aims you'd rather pursue.



*Is it viable to play Executioner's Capsule, EE, and Arademy Ruins in this deck? I'm aware that it could be stretching the Intuition engine and encroaching on "The Danger of Cool Things", but it sounds... strong. Capsule doesn't nerf your threats, EE is CA if you're waiting on a win condition, etc. I'm sure you can spell it out.


As ever, Ruins and company are a possibility. Like you said, however, I don't think it's a particularly viable possibility for this deck, at least not as it stands. The main reason has to do with the manabase and mana requirements, which are already tight. Adding another land that only produces colourless mana (or two, since Volrath's Stronghold would be necessary to replace Genesis and make the Intuition piles consistent again) has, in my experience, made the deck rather unwieldy. As it stands, we have a reliable recursion engine in the form of Genesis, and it recurs more than just our spot removal: it brings the whole army back. There's another point against the Capsule: Shriekmaw can always sub in and attack, and seldom gets countered by Counterbalance. To go the Ruins route, I think, would be to make the deck significantly more vulnerable to Counterbalance--and that in turn would cut into the reasons to play this deck, I think.



Now, I'll post the list I'm currently running. You'll notice only three Thoughtseize: this is because the card becomes nearly useless in the late game (when your opponent has only one card in hand, and when you don't want to dig into your life total too much more). The fourth copy has been replaced with Raven's Crime, which does not have these disadvantages and which, on the whole, has proven rather useful (both in Loam/Wasteland/Crime piles, and also just to discard Incarnations). Thoughtseize is definitely at its best early on, when it can grab a creature (or Dreadnought!).

Speaking of Dreadnought: I think that's just a bullet that we have to bite. It's certainly plausible to go with Smother rather than Shriekmaw, but that in turn makes your removal vulernable to Counterbalance and Spell Snare, and you lose much of your ability to recur it (and even to have it swing if necessary). Besides, decks with Dreadnought have a lot more counter-power than we do, which means that even landing a Smother is dodgy business. I prefer to just bite the bullet and side in both Crime/Punishment and Krosan Grip for games two and three.

The one question I'm still debating is Eternal Witness' usefulness in the main deck (I definitely would at least want it in the sideboard). I suppose this slot is an obvious candidate for another land; perhaps it's really a meta-dependent question. I dunno.

One last thing: Stinkweed Imp is back! Yay! He's a rather useful little nuisance.

Lands
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Shriekmaw
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
1 Eternal Witness
1 Stinkweed Imp

Spells
3 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Raven's Crime

Sideboard

4 Krosan Grip
3 Crime/Punishment
3 Extirpate
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Gaea's Blessing


EDIT:

New list, new primer, new home! (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11638)